meeting_transcript,summary "Project Manager: Yep Soon as I get this This is our last meeting I will go ahead and go through the minutes from the previous meeting and then we will have a the prototype presentation then we will do an evaluation or we will see what what we need to have under the criteria for the evaluation Then we will go through the finance and see if we fall within the budget then we will do the evaluation and then we can finish up after that with any changes that we will need to make or hopefully everything will fall right in line let us see minutes from the last meeting we looked at the the trends We had the fashion trends that people want a fancy lookandfeel It was twice as important as anything else they liked fruit and vegetables in the new styles and a spongy feel So we were talking about trying to incorporate those into our prototype they wanted limited buttons and simplicity then we looked at the the method for coming up with our own remote looking at other other devices the iPod we really liked the look of that we also had the kids remote for a simple idea a two part remote which was what were were originally looking at and then there was talk of spee speech recognition becoming more predominant and easier to use But I think we have still decided not to go with that Then we looked at the components the materials for the case the different energy sources the different types of chips and made a decision on what we were going to use to make our remote and basically how what were making for the prototype So I am going to leave it at that and let you guys take over The prototype Do you need a this ? Industrial Designer: Can try to plug that in there User Interface: There is our remo the banana basically we we st went with the colour yellow working on the principle of a fruit which was mentioned it is basically designed around a banana but it would be held in such a fashion where it is obviously it would not be that floppy because this would be hard plastic These would be like the rubber the rubber grips So that is so that would hopefully help with grip or like the ergonomics of it but all the controlling would be done with this scroll wheel You have to use your imagination a little bit And this here represents the screen where you where you would go through And the the simplest functions would be almost identical to an iPod where that one way ch through channels that way th other way through channels Volume up and down And then to access the more complicated functions you would you sorta go you press that and go through the menus It is that that simple That just represents the infrared beam That is a simple on and off switch I do not know we could use the voice T that blue bits should be yellow that that would be where the batteries would be I suppose And that is about it It is as simple as you we could make it really Is there anything you want to add ? Industrial Designer: That is what we have there That is plastic Plastic covered with rubber We might add some more underneath here Maybe give it give it a form I mean you are supposed to hold it like that but just if you grab it take it from somewhere User Interface: Does not make much make much difference You could work lefthanded or righthanded I suppose Industrial Designer: Exactly use both Might as well think about User Interface: T the actual thing might be smaller Industrial Designer: Th think about the button as well Like either put either one one on either side or Project Manager: What but what is that button ? Industrial Designer: not do it at all It is a quick onoff button User Interface: Just the on and off Industrial Designer: I think it is pretty important So you do not have to fiddle with that Right ? that is not I would say a bit smaller would probably be nice You want to play with that over there","Project Manager introduced that the prototype incorporated fashion trends that people prefer fancy looking products like fruit and vegetable. After That, User Interface presented the product which looked like a banana and was bright yellow except for the blue button. The style was as simple as possible in order to fit the customers' need for simplicity. Also, the product could be curved and used both-handed with advanced chips hidden inside, which seemed quite creative and identical to iPod features. In the end, Industrial Designer commented that the remote control could be smaller in size." "Marketing: I do You guys are going to help me do an evaluation of the criteria So first I will just discuss some of the criteria that I found Just based on the past trend reports that I was looking at earlier And then we will do a group evaluation of the prototype And then we will calculate the average score to see how we did so the criteria we are going to be looking at are the complaints that we heard from the users who were interviewed earlier So we are going to be doing it based on a seven point scale And one is going to mean true that we did actually achieve that With seven being false we did not achieve that So for the first one we need to decide did we solved the problem of the users who complained about an ugly remote ? Project Manager: I think it is definitely different than anything else out there So if they think that what is out there is ugly then yes I would say I would say most definitely","Marketing had some evaluation criteria in mind, based on previous marketing strategy, on the latest trends, and on user preferences. The team should figure out whether their product could solve the complaints of the ugly remote control. There was a seven-point scale rating for each criterion. The team would give comments to each feature listed and agree on the final rating." "User Interface: It is bright It is Project Manager: It still has your traditional black User Interface: It is curved It is not there is no sharp Industrial Designer: I would say when it comes to the ergonomics the form and stuff yes that is definitely more beautiful than your average However the colour we do not have a say in that Marketing: I think the colours detract a little bit User Interface: Some people might say it Industrial Designer: That has been that has been dictated pretty much by the company So to answer that honestly I would rather say like we have not solved the problem completely with the ugly remote because the colour is ugly definitely S nothing you can say about that I mean I much prefer something like brushed chrome with that form Project Manager: something more modern to go a a modern colour to go with the modern form Industrial Designer: Right Right It is different You do not want your three feet huge LCD dis display in your living room that is hanging from the wall to be controlled with something like that Marketing: so do you think since we This was a a sign criteria do you think maybe we should put it somewhere in the middle then ? Does that sound good ? What do you think ? Three ? Four ? the second one Did we make it simple for new users ? Industrial Designer: It is very intuitive I think User Interface: I think that was the main aim one of the main aims that we had Industrial Designer: S give it a one Marketing: kay do the controls now match the operating behaviour of the users ? User Interface: Because we have we have brought it down to basically four controls most common which are channel and volume And then the other ones are just a matter of just going just scrolling further Project Manager: S scrolling through and selecting a few Industrial Designer: Right So that is a one Project Manager: I think that is a one Marketing: ? the fourth one How about the problem of a remote being easily lost ? One of the number one complaints Industrial Designer: Something that big and that yellow you just do not lose anymore Marketing: Whether you want to or not you are not going to lose it User Interface: Bright yellows hard to lose But if we were to if we were that the speech recognition That we could maybe just use that solely for the the finding thing That was what we would we would mentioned Project Manager: So if we incorporate speech recognition into it then it could User Interface: Just just to use to find it when it was lost But like I said like I do not think you would lose something so yellow so easily And it is not going to fall like a rectangle would slip down behind things That is going to be a difficult shape to Project Manager: And it is quite bright and User Interface: Maybe in the middle again three or four or something ? I mean you know loo losing things is one of those things that people can lose I mean a million ways You can pick it up and walk away with it and then you have lost it Project Manager: But if we do go with the with the speech recognition then it then our scale goes up quite a bit I think Probably two You know If we eliminate the fact that you know it is impossible to guarantee that it is not going to be lost then With the speech recognition which of course may be changed depending on budget Industrial Designer: Y you could add an extra feature actually Which makes this thing raise hell when you remove it too far from the television We could add that but that is nothing we have thought of so far Project Manager: Which which may be cheaper than speech recognition if it were just a User Interface: true But I mean d just those whistling clapping key rings you have They are cheap Marketing: Annoying alarm or something ? User Interface: So it can not be that Industrial Designer: the it is based on this anti antitheft technology for suitcases and stuff where you have one piece that is attached to your luggage another piece that starts beeping That can not cost much So that can also easily be integrated because these things are small enough to to hide so you have one piece you have to glue somewhere behind your stick it behind your TV and the other User Interface: stick it on the TV Project Manager: Pray that you do not accidentally lose that piece Industrial Designer: That would be tough then Well also your remote would alarm you if somebody stole you t your television Ran off with it without taking the beautiful remote control Marketing: So Are we adding one of these two features ? Industrial Designer: Let us add one of those features and say yes Marketing: So we are back to a one ?","Generally speaking, the team agreed that the product was intuitive and had successfully incorporated main aims that the team had. The team believed the customers were not likely to lose the remote control since it was big and bright yellow with speech recognition. Moreover, Industrial Designer suggested adding an extra feature for the product to raise volume like hell when it was removed so far from the TV. However, the team also noted that costs should be compared when deciding to use annoying alarms or others." "Marketing: Two kay Are we technologically innovative ? User Interface: do not get many mo remote controls with Industrial Designer: It is all just stolen technology when it comes down to Project Manager: But there is not a lot of yellow there is not a lotta yellow Course that was not really we were kind of forced to take that colour I do not know that we are that innovative to tell you the truth Marketing: But how many remotes do you see like this ? Project Manager: If we added the screaming factor then we go up I would say we are probably at four Marketing: Really ? That is going to hurt us Industrial Designer: well you have that kind of sort of User Interface: as much as as needed I think Industrial Designer: It is not a one though One would be the whole thing Project Manager: Because it is only got what these parts are the grips and perhaps the back side the bottom the underneath on the back Industrial Designer: So that is a four at most Project Manager: Probably a four at most Possibly even a five Marketing: And lastly did we put the fashion in electronics ? I would say we did Project Manager: If your fashion is b is Carmen Miranda you betcha Industrial Designer: Well the recent fashion is rather displayed in the in the LCD and the way you operate it than the form and the colour","To start with, the team agreed that the remote control was indeed innovative with the LCD display incorporated and the way it could be used both-handed with an alarming feature. Also, it aimed at the recent fashion trend since it looked like a banana with a special yellow colour. Although some of its features were identical to an iPod, the team believed that it was a creative design for remote control." "Project Manager: We have energy source electronics case Then we have case material supplements interface type and then button supplements so first of all energy source we picked battery and how many batteries do we think this will probably take ? Probably some e either two or four Industrial Designer: At four it is going to be too heavy so that that is not our problem People can change it every month They will not know until after they bought it Project Manager: Alright so for the electronics our choices are simpl simple chiponprint regular chiponprint advanced chiponprint sample sensor sample speaker User Interface: We are advanced chip are we ? Industrial Designer: That is the advanced chiponprint Project Manager: Kay we have one of those Kay then the case is a Probably it is double curved plastic I guess it is two since one for the top one for the bottom Is that right or is it just one ? Industrial Designer: No that is just one Project Manager: Maybe it is one because of the Industrial Designer: It is just one mo single mould we can do that Project Manager: I guess it does not matter because the price on that one is zero which is nice Industrial Designer: That is not a special colour It is a specially ugly colour but it is not special Project Manager: Interface type We have pushbutton scrollwheel interface integrated scrollwheel pushbutton and an LCD display So we actually have the LCD display and then is it the integrated or is it User Interface: I would say the integrated Project Manager: Kay Button supplement ? Special colour ? special form ? Special material Industrial Designer: We could of course make the buttons wood Marketing: It would look really lovely Project Manager: They cost us all the same Well we only have one button so really we should not be charged we should not be charged anything for the the button supplements User Interface: No that is getting a bit tiny Project Manager: We are going to leave that one blank because we run on a LCD and scroll So our total is fifteen point five Which I believe is Industrial Designer: It is hard to believe So we will go for the hand dynamo huh ? Project Manager: So the only thing better than a bananashaped remote is one that you shake User Interface: If it w What if we completely took out the the one single button we have got on And just had a scroll wheel interface And the LCD display I suppose the LCD C displays the one that is pushing it up a bit though Project Manager: Well because we have to have both right ? Industrial Designer: I mean let us let us face it it also depends on the software on the on the television You can have the the information that this thing transmits be being displayed on the on the screen So s let us take away the User Interface: you could maybe take out the LCD dis display even if it if it comes up on the computer itsel on the TV itself Project Manager: So we may not need the LCD display ? Industrial Designer: Right We may not need it There you go Project Manager: So we just remove our User Interface: Make it a bigger dial Easier to use Even easier to use then Project Manager: Besides look at what the LCD does to our lovely remote Back to the design room boys Industrial Designer: So we can just take away a heck of a lot of the there you go central ? Marketing: What is the blue part ? User Interface: we ran out of yellow Marketing: Oh that is the batteries Looks more like a banana User Interface: For all those fruit lovers out there","Project Manager first introduced the budget and broke it down to parts like batteries, electronics, case material supplements, interface type and then button supplements. The team agreed that the push button, integrated scroll-wheel and the LCD display cost a lot but case materials were all the same. In this case, the team decided to discard the LCD since the information it could transmit could also be simply displayed on the screen. As for the recognition feature, the team decided to make it a big deal to be alarming. And lastly, the product would be pure yellow instead of a blue button." "Project Manager: h what did you think of our project process ? User Interface: I think we did I think we did quite well Industrial Designer: Just half a day you have a remote There you go User Interface: Right from the start of the day We sort of knew where we were going straight away I thought Project Manager: we st we started off a little little weak Our leadership was quite weak in the beginning But as the day went along we had more idea of what we were doing room for creativity ? There was that I think we tried a lotta different things and I think it was interesting as you guys brought up more information and studies that we were right on with a lot of those things you guys worked together well as a team And the means ? Which was the whiteboard and the pens User Interface: We have used the whiteboard Project Manager: I had some problem with the pen I think but minus your p Industrial Designer: Well that is not my fault That is obviously the people I work for that work for me Marketing: No I know I am Industrial Designer: they have just you know Heads are going to roll believe me Project Manager: we have a list of employees that you would like fired N new ideas found ? Yes for the remote Maybe no not f for technology Alright Closing Costs are within the budget Project is evaluated complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary That is it","The team thought they had a really great team work experience. Everyone had put efforts into the process and gave opinions to design a good remote control. Also, the process incorporated different stages and new ideas could always be added based on the market finds." "Marketing: evaluation Basic point have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by then we will it is a seven s seven seven step kind of evaluation process So not seven steps seven scale So after we have finished doing all the ratings for each criteria we average that and that will give us some type of confidence in our prototype And the criteria based on Real Reactions kind of goals and policies marketing strategies and also those I put together from the user requirements phase Kay if you flip the So those are the criteria And perhaps I could have put them a bit better but you notice a few things that we have totally abandoned which means that the product will score very badly on some of those points Put it mildly So we have true ? One t Seven eight oh Fourth so we have to go through each point If we imagine it is actually straight and just give it a a score So how well would you say the prototype is how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost or to be able to find them once they are lost I mean is the homing thing still the locator is that still User Interface: that is still part of the design Marketing: Sure And Adam we can keep that in ? Project Manager: I believe so So I mean I do not think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost because that would mean doing something about the human element but I would like to think that we have done something about finding the damn thing once we have User Interface: Mm Mm And making it a bright colour helps with the personally I would have gone for purple Marketing: Mm Bright colour So we still have that noise thing ? Os on a scale of one to seven how would you guys rate it for finding finding it once it is lost ? User Interface: I would say number one Marketing: Number number one for the first criteria User Interface: I think w if it was just the sounder then th I mean something I have found with w w with say tr trying to find a cordless phone or a m mobile you can hear it but you can not quite pin it dow pin down where it is Marketing: you can tell what room the mobile is Industrial Designer: What about what if the the volume on the TVs turned up massively and you just want to turn down the volume can not find remote Suppose you have to go to the TV and do it manually Mm Like y you would not hear the speaker Project Manager: just before we go through all of the steps here well what we will do is Marketing: You want to say something ? Project Manager: if we can look at the criteria you are going to evaluate and then we will come back to the product evaluation if that is alright Marketing: Oh that is that is fine Project Manager: so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you have covered ? And then we will come back pretty much promptly to this Marketing: What do you mean cr is there anything I want to Project Manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ? Marketing: a few Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion and clothing fashion That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion So they say we put the fashion in electronics well they really mean it they they are very big on fashion so That is this bit right here And this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it is just the same as saying easy to use interface so it is kind of condensed into one And we can come back to it you said Project Manager: No and which we will do very very shortly Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do most of it stems from the use of the LCD which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a LCD at which point we have removed a large part of how we were going to interface require more buttons etcetera Or what we did was that we we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the proposed costs and we are just scraping it in we have got point two of a Euro left over there So we are just managing it really Even then as well there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I have used what I thinks appropriate With any luck that will not mean that we have incurred more cost than we can actually afford to It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side for example the possibility of having a USB connection is definitely not viable now That should still be viable We have got an advanced chip we have got the use of the LCD So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility but what is something we need to decide on is how we are going to go from here We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and show you if you wish I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design possibly meaning that the LCD would not be in this perfect place It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person User Interface: Mmhmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h is have it circular and have it s so that the the pink actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger Mm Project Manager: It very much is about making concessions unfortunately Marketing: Do you have any data on how much different prints cost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design ? Project Manager: b b b da is you mean on the plastic or ? Let us have a look You now have as much information as I do So as you can see here for example the battery really not very little choice in that one We have gone for one of the cheaper options as well Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we are going to do what we are needing to I have said single curved We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it plastic for some reason incurs no cost which I have had to very much make advantage of despite the fact that rubbers only got a value of two Euros per unit Problem comes here as you can see in the interface if I have read this thing correctly then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it is not per push button That might make sense because then a numeric keypad would come in at what four point five Euros which is an awful lot so that could well be wrong Even if we save point five there it would just mean that we are most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit which has had to be put to one side As you can see the use of an LC display advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it is an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that was not quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick Marketing: Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That is quite significantly expensive Project Manager: I that is something you will have to take up with the bean counters as you can see I mean that is taken up well over half of the price So I am very much open to suggestions of where we go but because we need to she would what was four Euros off of the the price of for what we really desired this one comes in under price as you can see but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design Marketing: We do not even have speakers here The like we what about speakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ? Project Manager: no we have not not Marketing: Transmitter receiver speakers Plus the extra device itself that is going to be on a TV Is that going to be a button or Project Manager: That will it literally would just be a button Industrial Designer: That is too expensive is not it ? Project Manager: It looks like almost nothing Mm Oh good call I missed that Marketing: I I mean it is not on here but Project Manager: that is a very valid point Marketing: Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the LCD ? Project Manager: So if we are going to go with the LC display then that is Marketing: What is a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ? Project Manager: That would probably not be in keeping with the the fashion statement and such Industrial Designer: So basically the only new thing is the LCD on the remote now Project Manager: Being manipulated by the joystick Which I am defining as scroll wheel Marketing: And we could not replace the joystick right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it up down left and right and that would be more expensive than a but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ? Project Manager: it is just because there was no actual definition for what a joystick might be that that is what I have labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation Industrial Designer: So The LCD basically is the big selling point of Project Manager: If we remove the LC display we could save ourselves a fair amount Which you could Industrial Designer: But that is what makes it original though User Interface: Mm I think if we remove the the LC display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetings and we just we could just put our branding on any other remote control Project Manager: It is a shame We should possibly have If we could have increased the price we could have manufactured that and we could have got something far closer to what we were hoping to Marketing: Does this does this bear in mind that I mean it is a bit ridiculous that they are going to charge us what is it like this much money for three million if we are going to buy three million components Project Manager: Again you will have to argue with the accountants on that one but for the purposes of this meeting I am we are going to have to stick with these figures So I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we are going to keep the LC display because it is about what really separates us despite the cost it is going to incur are people maybe not happy with but are willing to go ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case to keep the LCD ? User Interface: Mmhmm I mean one thing I mean ho how much extra would it be to to keep I mean keep the the articulation ? Project Manager: It is hard to tell I would say that you are at least going to take double curved User Interface: This is what I am wondering Project Manager: and even then I am not quite sure if that is incorporating the idea of articulation User Interface: no I think I I it d that it need not require it to be double curved Industrial Designer: It can be s it can still be single curved User Interface: It is it is just it is just it is just that the case would come in t would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ? Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? Because like we do we have re restrictions on software ? Industrial Designer: That is what we need for the joystick I think though Marketing: Oh but there has to be User Interface: and I mean the I mean if you look if you look closer at the at the prototype here the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight I mean Project Manager: But the curves all o over hand User Interface: on the on the LCD I mean although we have done it with a curve it could just as easily be done without curves The curve that is really needed is up here to put to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand Project Manager: We would not actually save a lot by reducing it anyway so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal Marketing: So I think the product is not going to perform so well for my criteria Project Manager: Which is what we can get onto now As long as so are we going to say w we have to keep an eye on the time as well but we are going to say single curved design Marketing: Oh wait a minute Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ? Project Manager: but at a cost of User Interface: that is that voice response thing that we got the email about But I thought it was just completely pointless Marketing: You got a email about voice response ? User Interface: B i basically it was saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could you know say hello to and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice Project Manager: we will definitely will not go with that one Marketing: We will not go with that one did you say ? Project Manager: that is voice recognition so Marketing: So it looks like we are going to get rid of the whole loca locator thing Project Manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros Maybe even slight well oh pretty much point two Euros I would say So we will leave that one for now we will just have Industrial Designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ? Project Manager: It is a case of I am slightly unsure One point five of a Euro for one push button does not sound quite right So maybe it is a case of a push button is maybe one or more Industrial Designer: I was for a case Or had you already incorporated that ? Marketing: Oh special colour for the case Project Manager: Well you got point five there It is literally a case of whether or not this is correct I am not quite sure if they are I do not think they mean point five Euros per button User Interface: l let us say that and then we can have our special coloured case and then we at least have make it a little harder to lose Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room Marketing: W what is the default colour ? White or black ? Project Manager: Blacks probably the normal colour you would say I quite like that colour that you are fetching there it is definitely for make it glow in the dark even better So will we go with that then ? It is not and we can see we will come back to your evaluation which you are probably now going to pan us but there we go Just to give you an idea you want to go maybe a bit quickly as well I am not sure how much time We have not hit the five minute mark warning yet Industrial Designer: Think it is ten minutes left","The use of the LCD screen and the advanced chip cost the team half of the expenditure. Due to the budget limit, the team had to abandon some other designs such as the rubber material and the double-curved structure. The USB connection was not feasible for now as well. For the location function, a transmitter, a receiver and speakers could be incorporated on a TV instead." "User Interface: Mmhmm I mean one thing I mean ho how much extra would it be to to keep I mean keep the the articulation ? Project Manager: It is hard to tell I would say that you are at least going to take double curved User Interface: This is what I am wondering Project Manager: and even then I am not quite sure if that is incorporating the idea of articulation User Interface: no I think I I it d that it need not require it to be double curved Industrial Designer: It can be s it can still be single curved User Interface: It is it is just it is just it is just that the case would come in t would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ? Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on the menu being the best interface ? Because like we do we have re restrictions on software ? Industrial Designer: That is what we need for the joystick I think though Marketing: Oh but there has to be User Interface: and I mean the I mean if you look if you look closer at the at the prototype here the lines here along the grip are actually quite straight I mean Project Manager: But the curves all o over hand User Interface: on the on the LCD I mean although we have done it with a curve it could just as easily be done without curves The curve that is really needed is up here to put to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position for it to have it rest on the top of the hand Project Manager: We would not actually save a lot by reducing it anyway so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can state that single curve still allows articulation unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal","In the budget balancing, User Interface desired an articulation, which would, however, lead the remote control to be double-curved. Initially, Project Manager was not sure about this, for the double-curved design would go over the budget. Industrial Designer pointed out that a single curve would still allow the articulation. The remote control could be made in two parts and joined together with the articulation. Project Manager accepted Industrial Designer's proposal." "Marketing: Oh wait a minute Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ? Project Manager: but at a cost of User Interface: that is that voice response thing that we got the email about But I thought it was just completely pointless Marketing: You got a email about voice response ? User Interface: B i basically it was saying that our labs had come up with a chip that you could you know say hello to and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice Project Manager: we will definitely will not go with that one Marketing: We will not go with that one did you say ? Project Manager: that is voice recognition so Marketing: So it looks like we are going to get rid of the whole loca locator thing Project Manager: It looks like it unless we can manage to put it in under point two Euros Maybe even slight well oh pretty much point two Euros I would say So we will leave that one for now we will just have Industrial Designer: Are we going for a special colour at all ? Project Manager: It is a case of I am slightly unsure One point five of a Euro for one push button does not sound quite right So maybe it is a case of a push button is maybe one or more Industrial Designer: I was for a case Or had you already incorporated that ? Marketing: Oh special colour for the case Project Manager: Well you got point five there It is literally a case of whether or not this is correct I am not quite sure if they are I do not think they mean point five Euros per button User Interface: l let us say that and then we can have our special coloured case and then we at least have make it a little harder to lose Because most m most remotes are a fairly dingy colour that gets camouflaged under any pile of crap in a living room Marketing: W what is the default colour ? White or black ? Project Manager: Blacks probably the normal colour you would say I quite like that colour that you are fetching there it is definitely for make it glow in the dark even better","User Interface told the team that the corporate had decided to incorporate a voice recognition chip into the remote control so that the team had to invent another method for users to locate the remote control once it got lost in a room. The team decided to make the remote control a special colour. Meanwhile, the remote control would be able to camouflage in the living room. Project Manager further proposed that the team could also make the remote control glow in the dark." "Marketing: Kay Ability to stop remotes from being lost or to find them once they are lost User Interface: Three I think we can do three Marketing: Three if we are being generous I feel User Interface: Th the special colour does not would I think make a difference Marketing: Think we are being generous here with three User Interface: It makes it stand out from you know it is lost in a big pile of crap it stands out from the rest of the crap Marketing: Reduce the number of unused buttons We are down to t two buttons is it ? User Interface: Two buttons and a joystick Marketing: so that is a one You know Project Manager: I would say we are doing well there Marketing: that was good Easy to use interface buttons menu menus that is that is good Kay that is we are not doing so badly easy to use oh let us forget that one Fancy looking User Interface: It does not get much fancier Marketing: Sure And we could do whatever we like with the L LCD let us just assume it is a good LCD display Maybe I was panicking for no reason Industrial Designer: Are we going one on ? I would say we go two because like f the fanciest would be the double curved Marketing: w maybe you would be a bit too Industrial Designer: With the articulators With bells on it Marketing: that is m that is that is better too More accurate numbers Technologically innovative Well we are getting rid of the locator thing User Interface: Mm I would give it a three for this for that I mean the menus thing is something you do not normally see on on a remote but you see it in a lot of other places Marketing: And y what you are doing is moving the menu from the television to the remote control so it is You say three ? I might go as far as two on that Three User Interface: I would give it a three Project Manager: I would be tempted with three We will get panned on the next one anyway Marketing: Materials that people find pleasing Sponginess is what they really would have wanted apparently Project Manager: It is Do not blame them because of the way that we have minimalised the number of buttons and such Plastic it sucks But it is no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have Marketing: That is true It is not a step backwards User Interface: Mmhmm I would s I I would give it a six to be honest Marketing: let us give it a six that is totally thrown everything off balance Inspired by the latest interior and clothing fashion W we could What colour were we going to make it ? Industrial Designer: Put a leopard print on it User Interface: Well I I I would sa I would say give a s give a selection of colours we went with yellow we went with yellow for the prototype because we had yellow If I were buying one I would go for purple Leopard print would be cool Marketing: But by this I think it is more a case of fruit and veg Industrial Designer: we got to I would say the colour of the border there world you would find that that is that would stand out Project Manager: Like yellow It would also help keep the the product placement s Is it inspired by clothing fashion ? Marketing: But Th th they are referring to the fruit and veg thing Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch no still it is not shaped like a banana is User Interface: That is kind of i Project Manager: It is kind o it User Interface: it will not be when it is been Marketing: Oh is that because it is flat ? What is what fruit or veg is flat ? User Interface: I I think s I I think this is not not particularly fruit and veggie Marketing: Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well Project Manager: I mean it is probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg so what four ? Marketing: Four ? Oh that is it is very ambitious Project Manager: Is that being too generous ? User Interface: Mm I would I would I do not think fruit and veg is the sole criterion Is the sole criterion for being fashion fashionable or inspired by current fashions I would g I would rate I would rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually Industrial Designer: Well this this what we are going to t this is their motto like And we are we are not doing well on it Marketing: This is their strategy I m imagine we actually had some money invested in this and the amount that we invest is going to be proportional to the marks Might we might want to be a bit more skepible sceptical about this one Project Manager: What would you think yourself ? Marketing: I would say I mean it is it is not at all right ? In any way or shape or form Project Manager: Well it is kind of curved and we can make it yellow and that is pretty much banana like Marketing: the the yellow banana like thing is I think is Project Manager: Si it is got a curve to it Marketing: Right five Is that sound reasonable ? Project Manager: Am I do you think I am stretching the the use of the banana ? Industrial Designer: I will go with five Marketing: Five Kay so we have one two three four five six seven So five seven ten sixteen twenty one Which gives us an average of three It is well this would be in the middle So we it is it is not bad It is in the good section Project Manager: It is not bad and considering the do not pick the pen Marketing: Oops Sorry I am I am sorry Project Manager: Y oh and you have knocked batteries out Industrial Designer: S bad design that thing Project Manager: considering the price we had to get this in to have a positive you know even based on the four of us being heavily biased it was going to be quite hard to get anything standing out I would say possibly based on the the cost features Marketing: Even if we were to increase this entire thing by by seven we were to go down a grade to to four we would have to do I mean we did not we were not that kind of optimistic too optim overly optimistic You know like we did not we did not add we did not subtract a whole seven points from these things so I think we are definitely on the good bit Even if we gave this one seven and this one seven that is still only three extra points over seven You know it is User Interface: Mm Personally I think given that the product only replaces a single remote control Marketing: we did it w it was It was good User Interface: that you have already got are people really going to she will out twenty five Euros for something that is only marginally good ? Industrial Designer: Well it depends who your who is what the target people are like you would say maybe the fashion conscious Project Manager: Maybe it is been targeted Industrial Designer: women would be going oh look at that s cool it looks like a it is yellow looks like a banana it is cool it is got to look good in the sitting room Project Manager: Hide it in the fruit basket Industrial Designer: Rather than the LCD whereas more technical like like more people in with the latest technology it is good it is got an LCD screen s only got two buttons and a joystick So which which kind of people would be more likely to buy it ? Project Manager: Probably the people technologically They are usually the ones that buy pointless stuff Marketing: I mean my mum still has not learnt how to use text messaging on her phone and she is had it for a long time you know She uses it to make phone calls and that is it So I think if sh if my mum saw a remote control like this with only two buttons and a joystick I mean that will probably be the first one she decides not to buy you know She would be like is this a remote control I do not how do you use it and stuff like that So even if it is really user friendly to us but we are used to using menus all the time User Interface: Mmhmm I s I suppose one thing is that b because it is technically innovative for someone who is sort of technophobic the fact that it simply looks unfamiliar would be daunting Marketing: I think it is totally radical to have a remote control with no no numbered buttons But like radical good maybe","In the product evaluation, the team was satisfied with its success in reducing the number of unused buttons. The user interface was considered to be user-friendly enough. However, the team also admitted that there was still room for improvement on the location function, technological innovation, the material, as well as the fashion style of the remote control." "Marketing: Materials that people find pleasing Sponginess is what they really would have wanted apparently Project Manager: It is Do not blame them because of the way that we have minimalised the number of buttons and such Plastic it sucks But it is no worse than any of the other pl remote controls we have Marketing: That is true It is not a step backwards User Interface: Mmhmm I would s I I would give it a six to be honest Marketing: let us give it a six","The team had decided to replace the rubber with plastic due to the budget limit. When evaluating the material of the remote control, Marketing admitted that sponginess was what most users desired, which was the feel given by rubber. Project Manager agreed. However, Project Manager pointed out that a plastic remote control was no worse than other remote controls in the market, so it would not be a step-back at least." "Project Manager: Is it inspired by clothing fashion ? Marketing: But Th th they are referring to the fruit and veg thing Is this like a banana type colour ? Could we stretch no still it is not shaped like a banana is User Interface: That is kind of i Project Manager: It is kind o it User Interface: it will not be when it is been Marketing: Oh is that because it is flat ? What is what fruit or veg is flat ? User Interface: I I think s I I think this is not not particularly fruit and veggie Marketing: Or we might have to suffer badly for this one as well Project Manager: I mean it is probably more fruit and veg than most other things out there bar fruit and veg so what four ? Marketing: Four ? Oh that is it is very ambitious Project Manager: Is that being too generous ? User Interface: Mm I would I would I do not think fruit and veg is the sole criterion Is the sole criterion for being fashion fashionable or inspired by current fashions I would g I would rate I would rate this fairly highly from that point of view actually Industrial Designer: Well this this what we are going to t this is their motto like And we are we are not doing well on it","Marketing concluded from the market research that users expected the remote control to combine fruit and vegetable elements with its fashion design. User Interface disagreed with Marketing, for it was believed by User Interface that fruit and vegetable style was not the sole criterion for satisfactory fashion design of the remote control. Instead, User Interface implicated that all designs inspired by current fashions were likely to win the users over." Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr Siân As I have said it is a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of the previous Minister when this legislation was first envisaged and then taken through You will be aware that there were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill : around regulation of institutions in Wales safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Governments financial support for the sector maintaining a focus on fair access and preserving and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there are different views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved I think those strategic aims are still really really important and certainly will underpin our thought process going forward but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England the implementation of new student support measures in Wales as well as the report that was done by Ellen Hazelkorn I think means it is appropriate that we move forward with different proposals not just regulation of the HE sector but the postcompulsory sector as a whole We will look to see what we can do to strengthen or whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives because I think those four objectives are still very very relevant But we have to have legislation now that is fit for the circumstances we currently find ourselves in and hopefully futureproofs us for how we want to see the sector develop in the future,"Although highly challenged by the participants, Kirsty Williams AM argued that the Act had fulfilled the Government's objectives in regulating institutions, safeguarding contribution, managing fair access and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy. These strategic aims were still really important but in the new situation, it was required to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England. In this case, to continue fulfilling its national outcomes, the Act should evolve by implementing new student support measures." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself has not been strong enough and that you then have had to drive some of these objectives through the annual remit letter rather than through legislation and that is why the strengthening is required ? Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly I see the remit letter as a really really important way in which national priorities and the priorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated communicated to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens So certainly I see the remit letter as being a very important mechanism for ensuring as I said that those national priorities are clearly articulated and then change happens Sian Gwenllian AM: Has the current legislation been framed around institutional autonomy so that it is not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes and is that going to be an element of the new Bill ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well certainly the 2015 Act contains numerous provisions that protect universities privileges and autonomy And that is really important and those are principles that I am committed to in any legislation that I bring forward We will certainly be looking to see how we can carry those protections into the forthcoming Bill but at the same time we do have to ensure appropriate regulation and accountability of institutions for their public funding and the privileges that they enjoy And I think there are a number of ways in which that can happen We have a very positive working relationship with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and I am very fortunate to have a very positive working relationship with the sector The remit letters are a really important way in which we can lay out those national priorities I do not think there is anything in the legislation per se that prevents those national priorities being articulated and being acted upon Sian Gwenllian AM: I do not think that is what HEFCW has said in their evidence They have said that the Bill has been framed in a way where it is not possible for institutions to fulfil any requirements You are talking about the remit letter maybe you need to have that discussion there but in terms of the Bill itself you can not make them fulfil any national outcomes Should not there be a discussion looking to move in a direction where there are national outcomes being set through legislation because there is public money going into that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I do not know whether we need national outcomes through legislation because those national priorities potentially will change over time What is really important and what we will be seeking to do in the new legislation is look to move to a system of outcome agreements So there is a very clear expectation that the commission will have in regulating the sector and coordinating and funding the sector to create a system of outcome agreements where those outputs will reflect national priorities and that is one of the things that we have consulted on and will look to take forward in the new legislation Sian Gwenllian AM: That is clear enough What about private providers ? The Act or the Act as it stands makes it a requirement for a regulated institution to be a charity and that means it is not possible to regulate alternative private providers under the Act even though they can provide higher education in Wales What is your view on this and will the new legislation continue with the requirement of being a charity ? Kirsty Williams AM: So I think first of all it is important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers and what could be termed as unregulated providers in the Welsh system as opposed to the English system And I think that is a really important distinction to make So currently under the current legislation unregulated providers can only access Welsh Government student support if they are designated on a casebycase basis So we do have a circumstance where—and a process in place to manage this So we have a specific designation policy which is operated on our behalf by HEFCW Only six organisations were designated on a casebycase basis in the 201819 academic year so the scale here is small Three of those were further education colleges So when we talk about a private provider perhaps people would have a view of a private university but actually three of those were FE colleges which we would all be familiar with And the three private providers were the Centre for Alternative Technology the training arm of the Church in Wales and the Newport and District Group Training Association All three of those are actual charities So in order for their courses to be specifically designated the three crucial questions that those providers have to answer are : quality—is what they are providing to students of a good quality the financial viability of the institution again to try to protect the interests of the students who may find themselves embarking on a course in an institution that is not viable as well as their contribution to private—sorry not to private good—public good And we are considering how that part of the sector will be regulated in the forthcoming legislation But Huw I do not know if there is anything else to add ? Huw Morris: Well just to say that there are a very small number of private providers as the Minister has outlined and in comparison with England where I think the last figures said that there were between 300 and 400 private providers in England you get a sense of the differences that exist there And if you look at what happened over recent years it has been those small private providers across the UK who have been most financially challenged and a number of them have stopped their operations with consequences for the students So we have been keen to put students at the front of things to make sure that the institutions that they are enrolling with are strong and have good quality","The Act was considered that the legislation itself was not strong enough by Sian Gwenllian AM and Kirsty Williams AM agreed that remit letters were a really important way in which national priorities could be preserved. Moreover, it was stressed that it was important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers, and what could be termed as 'unregulated providers' in the Welsh system. In this case, they should be designated on a case-by-case basis and always be able to protect the interests of the students. Besides, Kirsty Williams AM pointed out that the government had not identified an urgent reason to designate different types of courses as qualifying courses for the purposes of a fee limit, but in fact, the regulation for each type of them did differ from each other." Kirsty Williams AM: Of course the Act was introduced as a direct result of the changing scenario around finance and the different ways in which because of the reduction in HEFCWs budget the level of influence that HEFCW would be able to exert over institutions through the imposition of terms and conditions of funding— So the Act was introduced in part to address that shift in influence and the Act also has provided HEFCW with a range of new powers of intervention and sanctions in the case of noncompliance by institutions Personally I wholeheartedly believe that tertiary education providers should contribute to national goals and outcomes as part of what I would describe as a civic mission I am determined that any legislation that I bring forward and any commission that I establish will be empowered to enable that to happen through its regulatory and funding powers Of course the funding situation has shifted again now because of the introduction of what is commonly known as the Diamond reforms but our new system of student finance does again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have But as I said earlier it is not to say that institutions have had a free reign We have been able to use the remit letter and our relationship with HEFCW to progress agendas that we would want to see So for instance you will be aware in my remit letter I am concerned about issues around how people working in the sector are paid We have been able to successfully see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers all institutions sign up to the Welsh Governments code of ethical procurement So it is not to say that the Act has meant that we have had no influence but there are opportunities now because of the change in financial circumstances once again to look at that in any forthcoming legislation,"To answer this question, Kirsty Williams AM first introduced the achievements that the new system of student finance did again shift the parameters of influence that HEFCW or any new tertiary commission could have in the different situations, as a direct result of the changing scenario. Moreover, it was a great success to see all institutions sign up to becoming living wage employers, all institutions sign up to the Welsh Government's code of ethical procurement." Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is not something I wish I could do I think that we are doing it Selfpraise is no recommendation but because of the working relationship that we have I think we are seeing some success in using the remit letter to influence national outcomes So I have just talked about living wage we are also using our remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders pay the gender pay within institutions For instance as part of this Governments commitment to improving mental health we have been able to use the remit letter and some funding to be able to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector These are national priorities and we are acting upon them and we are using the multiple levers we have at the moment to engage in universities And I have to say universities have risen to that challenge and I am very grateful to them for doing that,"Currently, the government planned to use the remit letter to drive transparency over senior leaders' pay, the gender pay gap within institutions. For instance, it had been a success to use the remit letter and some funding to drive change and some improvements in mental health in the higher education sector. To conclude, Kirsty Williams AM suggested that the new PCET reforms were aimed to create a legislative regime and a regulation regime that encouraged collaboration and co-operation across the sector." "Dawn Bowden AM: I think they were saying it was difficult to use for swift interventions—they found it a bit cumbersome They explained to us that they often take informal measures or actions in their role as regulator and they have explained that the small size of the sector enables good relationships to be developed How can such measures work in the tertiary education body when there clearly will be many more than the 10 providers ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well looking ahead to the new Bill I would want to see and be very keen to ensure that there are sufficiently flexible—did you use the word soft—and soft regulatory powers that the commission could exercise Those powers for instance could include the ability to offer advice and guidance rather than maybe punitive interventions and powers to undertake enhanced monitoring of institutions to ensure compliance with regulatory conditions So I would expect the commission to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene from the soft flexible type which is nonpunitive but actually allows people to go in and support institutions through to something that would be as I said more punitive if they felt that an institution was in danger of not providing quality or financial failure Hefin David AM: Can I just come in there on the point that was made ? The issue that seemed to me to come from HEFCW and from the universities is that the dial seems to have only three steps So rather than having a graduated series of actions that they can take it seems to step from—what did he call it—a meeting without coffee to— Kirsty Williams AM: That is a very HEFCW thing to say Hefin David AM: —potentially institutions going bankrupt and there do not seem to be many steps in between that I would invite you to say whether you would like to remedy that in future Kirsty Williams AM: I think as I said at the beginning of the session this is why this postlegislative scrutiny is useful because we can reflect on that feedback As I said I would expect to be able to ensure that the commission had a range of powers that could address—from that soft power and those early conversations to being able to as I said issue perhaps advice and guidance to an institution so there would be a more graduated escalation Huw is there anything else that I have missed out ? Huw Morris: Just to build on what the Minister has said there is a range of ways in which we interact with all institutions that are going to be in the tertiary sector and some of that is about providing information So HEFCW provides information—it sends around circulars it produces reports and it holds events There is staff management and leadership development activity which can create a culture amongst the leaders of institutions but also amongst their governing bodies to help them move in a particular direction We would hope that is in the direction of the civic university approach that the Minister has outlined We use those mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals with the workbased learning provider network with sixth forms and others and we would want to see I hope in the tertiary sector some alignment of those things When things go badly wrong there are a range of mechanisms I think what stands behind HEFCWs comments is that before we had a loanbased system of student finance there was a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW I do not think we are going to be going back to that system in the foreseeable future because of the pressures on public finances—","Dawn Bowden AM challenged that informal measures or actions had been taken in their role as regulator, and Kirsty Williams AM explained that the commission was expected to be able to have a series of abilities to intervene, from the soft, flexible type, which was non-punitive but actually allowed people to participate in it. Meanwhile, Huw Morris suggested that specific mechanisms and informal interactions with FE college principals, with the work-based learning provider network, etc had been used to hopefully achieve some alignment in the tertiary sector. Also, as a loan-based system of student finance, a system of block grant allocations and conditions could be attached to those grant allocations by HEFCW when things went wrong." "Huw Morris: In the Hazelkorn review there is quite a lot of focus on that and looking to learn from other national systems where outcome agreements provide a broader measure of the range of things the institutions do and a mechanism for tracking how things are done through the provision of information back to the institution to help them know how they are doing And potentially in some of these other institutions funding is linked to some of those things Kirsty Williams AM: And of course what always has to be— What we have to strike the balance of as well is at what point those powers seem to be—and the ability to direct—interfering with the principle of autonomy within an institution So there is that balance to be struck is not there about creating a regulatory regime which I am very keen and the Act attempted to do which was to enshrine institutional autonomy and that is really really important but also a regulatory regime the ability to influence and to develop and to deliver national outcomes and the power to intervene in that sector which you know better than probably anybody else in this room guards that institutional autonomy very very very dear indeed And that is the balance that we need to try and strike as we go forward with the new commission proposals Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair I think in terms of the levels of measures—and I understand what you are saying—but I think what HEFCW were saying was that they try as far as possible to use informal measures and they are able to do that because of the size of the sector—just 10 institutions to work with The post16 sector however many we are talking—50 plus providers—it is probably going to be less likely that they would be able to have that sort of relationship with the leaders in those institutions So the informal measures might not be as prevalent as they are currently possibly Kirsty Williams AM: Yes but also what is incumbent upon me as the Minister is to ensure that the commission is set up in a way where it can have that relationship with the sector because what is really important to remember is that HEFCW will be replaced We are not asking HEFCW suddenly to go from regulating a small number of institutions to suddenly regulating 50 We will be creating a commission that will be structured in such a way that it can have those relationships Because of course whilst HEFCW will face changes our relationship with and how we manage the FE sector and the apprenticeship sector will also shift So the point is that we need to create a commission that will still be able to be close to the sector close enough to be able to provide that soft regulation those really important relationships in a way— So it has to be created in such a way and resourced in such a way that it allows that to happen and that is my intention Dawn Bowden AM: Well then of course the University of Wales said to us that they felt that there was the potential for HEFCW to issue directions enforceable by injunction to remedy minor matters So I think from what you are saying you would not be expecting that to happen Just the fact that they have got the power does not necessarily mean that that is what they are going to do Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think it is important to recognise when HEFCW can enforce its directions by way of an injunction If they were to do that because a university was breaking fee limits or because there were real questions about the quality of the provision or whether a university was not complying with the financial management code—personally I would not describe those as minor matters as a Minister if we had an institution that was significantly falling down on quality and HEFCW were using these powers to intervene I would not describe that as a minor matter Dawn Bowden AM: No That is fair enough And actually on that point we have had some recent highprofile issues in Swansea and Trinity St David and HEFCW still have not yet used their powers of intervention Do you find that surprising ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think what they have done in these circumstances is perhaps used their ability to support those institutions through what undoubtedly have been challenging times Given the fact that there are ongoing legal processes attached to Swansea University I think it would not be appropriate for me to comment any further because there are still matters in train with regard to that institution But clearly our expectation on HEFCW is to ensure that they are using their powers to support those universities and I would expect them if they felt necessary to use the full remit of their powers if they felt that that was what they needed to do Now I have to trust their professional judgment that that has not been necessary to date but our expectation is that they would do that if they felt it was necessary","Huw Morris started by introducing the focus on learning from other nations to track the information flows and help the universities in return. Meanwhile, Kirsty Williams AM suggested a balance to be achieved by each part of the participants. However, Dawn Bowden AM questioned about HEFCW's use of informal measures which might not be as prevalent as they currently are. Kirsty Williams AM answered that it should be remembered that HEFCW would surely be replaced, and a more flexible way would be adopted to control the financial codes of universities to assure the quality of the provision." "Kirsty Williams AM: Well no not in the sense that they have brought them to me to talk about specifically From my perspective fee and access plans are focused very much on inputs and really I would like to think about outputs and outcomes more importantly—what are the outcomes of the fee and access plan not necessarily just how much money has been spent on them I think certainly to really understand the success of the fee and access plan you have to question whether an annual basis is an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to and whether we could have something that was focused over a longer period of time Because when you think about it you write the plan and then you are into it and then the next thing you know you are writing your next years plan So I think there is an opportunity there to look to restructure So do I see a place for fee and access plans going forward as part of our outcome agreements ? Yes I do Can we do them differently to make them more effective ? Yes I think we can Hefin David AM: So why would introducing outcome agreements make them work any better ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think they are going to be a part of an outcome agreement—part of that wider expectation So fee and access plans are there to address an issue around primarily changing the nature of people who go to university and making sure that nobody is put off from pursuing that So that is part of a wider piece of work that I would want to see as an outcome agreement But as I said I think looking at outcomes for students and outcomes of that activity rather than the inputs of the activity over a longer period of time is probably a more effective way of doing it I think it is still— In a way it is difficult to make a final judgment on whether fee and access plans in their current format have worked because we need to know what will happen to those students in the future But undoubtedly despite the limitations of them I do think we are making progress in terms of access but I do not think we can necessarily point to the fee and access plans as being the driver for some of those improvements Hefin David AM: No I appreciate that and some of the things you are saying reflect some of the discussions we have had but what was clear is that the process and bureaucratic nature of the way you present fee and access plans does not work particularly given the fact that four years on early fee and access plans are still being evaluated There is a real problem there So what you are saying—can I just pin down what you are saying—is that we may be moving away from yearly fee and access plans to something that is longer term and outcome focused Kirsty Williams AM: That is my preference So I think the principle—I would like to think we can all agree around the principle of what a fee and access plan is hoping to achieve but I think there are better ways of doing it and I think we should take the opportunity of reform to look at how we can do it better Hefin David AM: So with that in mind I think we are talking about the future of the Bill the consultation on the PCET reforms closed in summer 2018—with these important issues in mind and things that are currently ongoing have you had further dialogue since then with key stakeholders like for example Universities Wales and others ? Kirsty Williams AM: On the Bill or on fee and access plans in particular ? Hefin David AM: I am thinking about fee and access plans as an issue that suggests that there is a need for deep consultation so with that in mind with things like that have you had further discussion ? Kirsty Williams AM: Oh my goodness me civil servants in the department are constantly in discussion with a range of stakeholders as we continue to develop legislative proposals I meet on a regular basis with both HEFCW—I meet separately with the vicechancellors and I have been very keen to develop a stronger working relationship with chairs and perhaps we will come on to issues of governance later So we are constantly discussing with stakeholders all options for change— Hefin David AM: I suppose the message I am getting as chair of the crossparty group on higher education is that there could still be more direct consultation with stakeholders That is the message I have received Now I have got no evidence to say it has or has not happened but that is the message I have received Huw Morris: If I could just chip in for a moment the Ministers outlined that there is very extensive ongoing communication both ways with the sector but the challenge of preparing a Bill is the balancing act between gathering in information—and there is been a general consultation process and a technical consultation process—and wanting to make sure that the Bill that is laid next year has not been discussed with anybody else before it comes to be considered by the Senedd So the broad principles have been discussed but specific details of what goes into a Bill or policy instructions that inform a Bill have not been the subject of consultation—","To answer Hefin David AM's question, Kirsty Williams AM first stressed that the success of the fee and access plan relied on the understanding of whether an annual basis was an appropriate timescale for a university to be working to, and whether a long period was suitable for the Act. Sometimes it was hard to make a final judgment since the futures of the students were unpredictable but the fee and access plans could always be one of the drivers for some of the improvements. In the meantime, constant efforts had been put into communications with a range of stakeholders to continue developing legislative proposals to assure the fee." "Hefin David AM: I will move on to managing risk if that is The feedback from Universities Wales suggests that with the outcome of the 2015 Act institutions with the strongest track records are more highly regulated than the riskier private alternative providers Do you think that Act has struck the right balance ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think the Act has created a system where the level of regulation is proportional to the amount and the nature of public moneys received by institutions Hefin David AM: Those were the words used by Universities Wales— Kirsty Williams AM: No no I am not disagreeing My view is : I believe that the Act has struck that proportionality When you look at public moneys going into institutions I think that the Act is proportionate myself Hefin David AM: So do you think it is in the interests of students then to be at private institutions— ? I have seen those private institutions and how they operate I have seen them at firsthand—they do not operate to the same rigour as public institutions and they are less regulated Huw Morris: Can I just chip in ? I think that the category private covers quite a wide range of things and many private institutions are also charities We do not have the presence of some of the large private charities that are present in other countries but Stanford and Harvard would count as private universities So I think we need to be careful in focusing on the inherent quality of things We have made charitable status a key reference point in the operation of things at the moment I think there has been attention drawn to some private providers particularly in England but I would not tar them all with the same brush necessarily Hefin David AM: But they fall outwith—if they are not charitable providers running validated courses for example they fall outwith the strength of regulation that is currently in place on the universities in Wales Kirsty Williams AM: So we would regulate them on a coursebycourse basis so it is back to the issue of proportionality is not it ? So you are automatically regulated for all your courses if you are one of our main universities but there is a process that is run by HEFCW on a coursebycourse basis to validate alternative providers And as Huw said I think we should recognise the nature of that is very very very small in Wales and there is a process to ensure quality provision If there were concerns about the quality of that provision that course could be deregulated Hefin David AM: And I am aware that there are a small number of private institutions in Wales but are you concerned that in the future the landscape may change particularly with the opportunity to recruit more parttime students ? Do you think the landscape may change in future and that the 2015 Act as designed was not equipped for that and will the next Act then be equipped ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think it is right to say that maybe the previous legislation did not futureproof for changes I am not anticipating a mass influx of alternative providers in the sense that we have seen across the border but we will need to ensure that the new commission has powers to regulate and to futureproof","Hefin David AM questioned about the right balance between institutions with the strongest track records that were more highly regulated and those riskier private alternative providers. Kirsty Williams AM argued that more attention should be paid to focus on the inherent quality of those charitable status which was regarded as a key reference point in the operation. Although there were some concerns of some private providers, particularly in England, they should not be treated the same. In this case, the government would regulate them on a course-by-course basis. Moreover, quality provision should be included and alternative providers would be given more attention." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you We had some evidence from the University and College Union that were concerned about the governance of universities actually as being a bigger problem than the regulatory framework in many ways Can you tell us perhaps how the HE Act addresses the issue of poor governance or is it really just limited to responding to the symptoms rather than the poor governance itself ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think it is true and fair to say that the Bill does not directly address issues around governance in the sector HEFCW do have wellestablished assurance practices in relation to governance that would predate the 2015 legislation But governance—we have talked briefly about some recent history within the sector that I think has certainly brought the issue of governance to the fore once again and I think there are two important things that we are trying to do about that in the current time prior to any legislative changes The first is as I just said to Hefin I have sought to have a more direct relationship with chairs of universities and have that onetoone relationship with them not in the presence of their vicechancellors I challenge them they challenge me and I think we have deliberately tried to establish a regular routine of that since I took office And you will be aware that collaboratively—and I am glad that this has been done in this way because I think if you do it this way we are more likely to get some success and change—Universities Wales and HEFCW have worked together to undertake an independent review of governance And I think it is really important that parties have come together to recognise the issues and to agree to take action because I think if we would have tried to impose something we would have more resistance So there is an independent review going on at the moment— Dawn Bowden AM: Is that the risk review process in— ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is the Gillian Camm review This is a review that as I said Universities Wales and HEFCW have agreed to do together It is chaired by Gillian Camm who is the chair of the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education and she is doing an independent review to advise on changes to governance And I welcome that I am very supportive of that and that is happening at the moment As I said I am glad that there is been recognition from within the sector themselves that they need to make sure and they need to give confidence that governance arrangements are what they should be Dawn Bowden AM: So is that something that you are going to be taking into the PCET Bill do you think ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes absolutely We are exploring how the Bill could introduce a regulatory condition in respect of good governance and a commission would be able to set expectations with regard to good governance I think one of the concerns for me—and I know that this is a concern that is shared by the UCU—is the diversity of governance and who finds themselves in these really important positions HEFCW do not hold figures on it but from an approximation that I have asked officials to do for me currently in the universities that we have I would say that men make up around 56 per cent of membership of universities governing bodies women—44 per cent BME—as low as 4 per cent Of course in individual institutions it does vary but I think there is some way to go to making sure that our governing bodies are diverse and that there is an opportunity to look at the student voice in governance going forward the staff voice in governance going forward and these are things that we hope to have discussions on whilst we bring the legislation forward Dawn Bowden AM: But also I guess—sorry Chair—a greater understanding that anybody going in to become a governor of one of these institutions has a greater understanding of what is expected of them Do you think that that is a that needs to be plugged ? Huw Morris: One of the things that HEFCW have led on with AdvanceHE the body that encompasses the leadership foundation is a development programme for governing bodies and that started earlier—well it is been going on for some time but it was recommenced earlier this year with a session for all of the chairs of universities in Wales And I believe—I will need to check this—that there are plans to engage with each of the governing bodies because as you rightly say and this lies behind a lot of what we have been discussing the activities of these institutions have become much more complex over recent years and so there is a need for that training and development and understanding also of the fastchanging nature of that activity","Kirsty Williams AM first admitted that it was true that the Bill did not directly address issues around governance in the sector. However, establishing a more direct relationship with chairs of universities, especially one-to-one relationships with them, had been attached much importance and it was crucial to help the government understand each aspect of issues in universities. Moreover, ways to make sure that the governing bodies were diverse and it was able to include both student voice as well as the staff voice in governance going forward would be discussed in the future. Kirsty Williams AM stressed that there were plans to engage with each of the governing bodies since the situation was getting far more complex." Sian Gwenllian AM: We have heard evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to qualityassure all the provision in two further education colleges That sounds to me like some kind of an anomaly or an unintended consequence of the Act Could you clarify that and explain the situation in that instance ?,Sian Gwenllian AM argued that there was evidence regarding the difficulties caused by HEFCW having a legal duty to quality-assure all the provisions in two further education colleges. This process was regarded as an anomaly or an unintended consequence of the Act. Sian Gwenllian AM wanted Kirsty Williams AM to explain the situation in that instance and further methods to assure governing qualities. "Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you My understanding—and as I said it is a bit difficult because I can not put myself into the thought process of the Minister at the time and what his expectation was But certainly my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence it was an expectation built into the Act that HEFCW and Estyn would work together on these matters The Act built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions So as a consequence of that approach HEFCWs quality assessment duty currently encompasses all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution So it is complicated and Huw can help me out here if I get it wrong but my understanding is that it was not an unintended consequence that was the expectation of what would happen when the legislation was passed Huw Huw Morris: I would completely agree with what the Minister has said Kirsty Williams AM: As always Laughter At least in public Huw Huw Morris: There is the expectation that they will work together in concert There is a lot of joint operation I think going forward we would expect that to continue We are looking to the new Bill to try to make that clearer That was a theme in the general and technical consultation exercises that we have engaged in over the last couple of years","Kirsty Williams AM first explained that it was a bit difficult to put herself in the position of the former Minister but it was clear that it should not be intended. However, she explained that the Act was built on what were the quality assessment arrangements in the 1992 Act, which required HEFCW to secure arrangements for the assessment of the quality of education provided by funding institutions. So, as a consequence of that approach, HEFCW's quality assessment duty currently encompassesed all the education provided by or on behalf of a regulated institution. Huw Morris also helped to explain that a lot of joint operation was required during the process and the new Bill would try to make that clearer." "Kirsty Williams AM: I am aware and we have listened to stakeholders concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body As I said we recognise that stakeholders are broadly content with the current situation with regard to Estyn and QAA So we have been listening to that following the technical consultation and policy officials are working through options in regard to ensuring what quality assurance will look like in the commission As I said I do not want to preempt bringing forward the legislation but the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent need to be effective and need to be comprehensive What we are also very clear about and I think it is important to say is that any quality framework covering higher education will be compatible with ENQA which I think is really really important going forward And by an extension of that it would be compatible with current UKwide baseline standards So we do not want to create specific problems for the HE sector in Wales Sian Gwenllian AM: But you have touched on this there is substantial concern in the sector about this offer to move to one assurance body for the tertiary sector One vicechancellor has told us : Kirsty Williams AM: Well sometimes I think it is necessary maybe to cause a stir If we do not change things it does beg the point of Why are any of us here if we are not here to sometimes move things forward ? And change is challenging always but I would like to reassure all of our vicechancellors and our sector as a whole that we are not going to do anything in the quality assurance regime that would risk what is the very high reputation and standards that Welsh universities currently comply with or would set them apart from institutions across the border or in a European context Huw Huw Morris: I agree obviously I think the fear is misplaced but coming back to another theme in the conversation so far about futureproofing what we are seeing in the figures that the Minister outlined to you earlier about the growth in postgraduate and the growth in parttime is the desire of a greater number of people at different ages to engage in higher and tertiary education and quite often that will be in a workplace or it will be in a nonconventional institutional setting Historically the quality assurance regimes for workbased learning have tended to sit with Estyn the assurance regimes for the universities have sat with the QAA There is quite a lot of learning that all sides have got to engage in if we are going to be able to have continued high quality in these new areas that are being explored That is an issue not just in Wales The Augar report which was published earlier this year in England drew attention to this as being a major problem in the relationship over the border between Ofsted and the QAA So I think we are not looking to impose one institution on anybody but we are looking to encourage greater synergy in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement is undertaken in those different areas of activity","Kirsty Williams AM shared that the government had listened to stakeholders' concerns regarding proposals to introduce a single quality assessment body. And she stressed that the principles underlying any assurance regime would need to be coherent, effective and comprehensive. Besides, the quality framework should cover higher education to make it compatible with ENQA, which was considered as highly important going forward, since it would be compatible with current UK-wide baseline standards to avoid specific problems for the HE sector in Wales. Although it might cause a stir, a change must be made in the new situation. Huw Morris also suggested that greater synergy would be encouraged in the ways in which quality assurance and enhancement was undertaken in different areas of activity." "Professor B: Well but we never also we ve also never done it Postdoc A: This is the first cycle There are bound to be some glitches the first time through Professor B: So And and I m sorry responding without having much knowledge but the thing is I am like one of these people who gets a gazillion mails and and stuff comes in as Grad F: Well and that s exactly why I did it the way I did it which is the default is if you do nothing we are going to release it Because you know I have my pause stack of emails of to d to be done that you know fifty or sixty long and the ones at the top I m never going to get to PhD C: Move them to the bottom Professor B: So so the only thing we are missing is is some way to respond to easily to say `` OK go ahead `` or something Grad F: right So i this is going to mean PhD C: Just re mail them to yourself and then they are at the bottom Grad F: That s actually definitely a good point The m email does not specify that you can just reply to the email as op as opposed to going to the form Postdoc A: And it also does not give a a specific I did not think of it S I think it s a good idea an ex explicit time by which this will be considered definite And and it has to be a time earlier than that endpoint PhD H: This I ve seen this recently I got email and it i if I use a MIME capable mail reader it actually says you know click on this button to confirm receipt pause of the of the mail Grad D: It s like certified mail Grad F: A lot of mailers support return receipt But it does not confirm that they ve read it PhD H: No no no This is different This is not So I I know you can tell you know the mail delivery agent to to confirm that the mail was delivered to your mailbox But but no This was different Ins in the mail there was a th there was a button that when you clicked on it it would send you know a actual acknowledgement to the sender that you had actually looked at the mail Grad F: Oh Unfor we could do that But I hate that PhD H: But it o but it only works for you know MIME capable you know if you use Netscape or something like that for your n PhD E: You might as well just respond to the mail Professor B: And we actually need a third thing It s not that you ve looked at it it s that you ve looked at it and and and agree with one of the possible actions PhD H: No no You can do that You know you can put this button anywhere you want Professor B: Oh ? Oh I see PhD H: and you can put it the bottom of the message and say `` here by you know by clicking on this I I agree you know I acknowledge `` Professor B: That i i my first born children are yours and Grad F: Well I could put a URL in there without any difficulty and pause even pretty simple MIME readers can do that So Postdoc A: But why should not they just pause email back ? I do not see there s a problem It s very nice I I like the high tech aspect of it PhD H: No no no I actually do not I m just saying that Grad F: Well I cuz I use a text mail reader PhD H: if ev but I m PhD E: Do not you use VI for your mai ? Professor B: Wow That s that s my guy Alright Grad F: You you read email pause in VI ? PhD H: So I i There s these logos pause that you can put at the bottom of your web page like `` powered by VI `` Grad F: You could put wed bugs in the email PhD E: Like there were three meetings this time or so or how many ? Six ? But no of different people So I guess if you are in both these types of meetings you would have a lot But How I mean it also depends on how many Like if we release this time it s a fairly small number of meetings but what if we release like twenty five meetings to people ? In th Grad F: Well what my s expectation is is that we will send out one of these emails pause every time a meeting has been checked and is ready PhD E: I do not know Oh Oh OK So this time was just the first chunk OK Grad F: So Tha that was my intention It s just that we just happened to have a bunch all at once PhD E: Well that s a good idea Grad F: I mean maybe Is that pause the way it s going to be you think Jane ?","The team decided to release their data on July 15th, but they still wanted to give people time to bleep things from the transcripts. There was skepticism that they could actually reach out to people and get everyone's consent that they were okay with whatever was being released." "Professor B: It well it well you are right Sometimes somebody will be pause away and you know there s for any length of time that you choose pause there is some person sometime who will not pause end up reading it That s it s you know just a certain risk to take PhD H: S so maybe when Am I on by the way ? Grad F: I do not know You should be PhD H: Oh Hello ? Hello ? Grad F: You should be channel B PhD H: Oh OK Alright So The Maybe we should say in w you know when the whole thing starts when they sign the the agreement that you know specify exactly what you know how how they will be contacted and they can you know they can be asked to give a phone number and an email address or both And then Postdoc A: We did that I I believe PhD H: So A And then you know say very clearly that if they do not if we do not hear from them you know as Morgan suggested by a certain time or after a certain period after we contact them that is implicitly giving their agreement Grad F: Well they ve already signed a form PhD E: And nobody nobody really reads it anyway Grad F: So And the s and the form was approved by Human Subjects PhD H: Well if that s i tha if that s already if Grad F: so eh that s going to be a little hard to modify Postdoc A: Well the form Well the form does not say if you know `` if you do not respond by X number of days or X number of weeks `` PhD H: I see Oh OK So what does it say about the the the process of of y the review process ? Postdoc A: It does not have a time limit That you will be provided access to the transcripts and then allowed to pause remove things that you would like to remove before it goes to the general larger audience Grad F: You can read what you already signed PhD E: I guess when I pause read it I m not as diligent as Chuck but I had the feeling I should probably respond and tell Adam like `` I got this and I will do it by this date and if you do not hear from me by then `` You know in other words responding to your email pause once right away saying `` as soon as you get this could you please respond `` And then if you if the person thinks they will need more time because they are out of town or whatever they can tell you at that point ? Because Grad F: Oh I just I did not want to do that because I do not want to have a discussion with every person pause if I can avoid it So what I wanted to do was just send it out and say `` on the fifteenth the data is released if you want to do something about it do something about it but that s it `` Postdoc A: I I kind of like this PhD E: OK So we are assuming that PhD H: Well that s that would be great if but you should probably have a pause legal person look at this and pause make sure it s OK Because if you if you do this and you then there s a dispute later and some you know someone who understands these matters concludes that they did not have you know enough opportunity to actually exercise their their right PhD E: Or they they might never have gotten the email because although they signed this they do not know by which date to expect your email And so pause someone whose machine is down or whatever I mean we have no in internally we know that people are there Grad F: Well OK l Let me Let me reverse this PhD E: but we have no confirmation that they got the mail Grad F: So let s say someone I send this out and someone does not respond Do we delete every meeting that they were in ? I do not think so PhD E: It we are hoping that does not happen but that s why there s such a thing as registered mail Grad F: That will absolutely happen Because people do not read their email or they will read and say `` I do not care about that I m not going to delete anything `` and they don just will not reply to it PhD H: Maybe do we have mailing addresses for these people ? Grad F: No We have what they put on the speaker form which was just generic contact information Postdoc A: But the ones that we are dealing with now are all local except the ones who I mean we we are totally in contact with all the ones in those two groups So maybe I you know that s not that many people and if I if i i there is an advantage to having them admit and if I can help with with processing that I will It s it s there is an advantage to having them be on record as having received the mail and indicating Grad F: I mean I thought we had discussed this like a year ago And so it seems like this is a little odd for it to be coming up yet again Postdoc A: You are right Well I you know But sometimes Professor B: Well we we have not experienced it before PhD E: You will either wonder pause at the beginning or you will wonder at the end Postdoc A: Need to get it right PhD E: I mean there s no way to get around I It s pretty much the same am amount of work except for an additional email just saying they got the email And maybe it s better legally to wonder before you know a little bit earlier than Postdoc A: It s much easier to explain pause this way Grad F: OK Well why do not you talk pause t Postdoc A: T t to have it on record Grad F: Morgan can you talk to our lawyer about it and find out what the status is on this ? Cuz I do not want to do something that we do not need to Because what I m telling you people will not respond to the email No matter what you do you there are going to be people who pause you are going to have to make a lot of effort to get in contact with Postdoc A: Well then we make the effort Grad D: I mean i it s k Grad F: And do we want to spend that effort ? Grad D: It s kind of like signing up for a mailing list They have opt in and opt out And there are two different ways I mean and either way works probably I mean Postdoc A: Except I really think in this case I I m agr I agree with Liz that we need to be pause in the clear and not have to after the fact say `` oh but I assumed `` and `` oh I m sorry that your email address was just accumulating mail without notifying you `` you know Professor B: If this is a purely administrative task we can actually have administration do it But the thing is that you know I I I think without going through a whole expensive thing with our lawyers from my previous conversations with them my my sense very pause much is that we would want something on record pause as indicating that they actually were aware of this Grad F: Well we had talked about this before and I thought that we had even gone by the lawyers asking about that and they said you have to s they ve already signed away the f with that form that they ve already signed once Postdoc A: I do not remember that this issue of pause the time period allowed for response was ever covered Professor B: We never really talked about that PhD E: Or the date at which they would be receiving the email from you Postdoc A: Or or how they would indicate PhD E: They probably forgot all about it Professor B: We certainly did not talk about with them at all about the manner of them being made the materials available PhD H: We do it like with these Professor B: That was something that was sort of just within our implementation PhD H: We can use it we can use a a ploy like they use to you know that when they serve like comment you know like dead beat dads they they they make it look like they won something in the lottery and then they open the envelope and that Right ? Because and then the the the the thing is served So you just make it you know `` oh you won you know go to this web site and you ve you are `` PhD E: That s why you never open these things that come in the mail Grad F: Well it s just we ve gone from one extreme to the other where at one point a few months ago Morgan was you were saying let s not do anything PhD H: Right Right No it I it might Postdoc A: Well it does not matter PhD H: i i it it might well be the case Grad F: and now we are we are saying we have to follow up each person and get a signature ? I mean what are we going to doing here ? PhD H: It might well be the case that that this is perfectly you know this is enough to give us a basis t to just eh assume their consent if they do not reply But I m not you know me not being a lawyer I would not just want to do that without pause having the the expert opinion on that Postdoc A: And how many people ? Al altogether we ve got twenty people These people are people who read their email almost all the time Grad F: Then I think we had better find out so that we can find a Professor B: Let me look at this again Postdoc A: I I really do not see that it s a problem I I think that it s a common courtesy to ask them to expect for them to be able to have comment us try to contact them you just in case they had not gotten their email I think they would appreciate it Professor B: My Adam my my view before was about pause the nature of what was of the presentation of of how pause my my the things that we are questioning were along the lines of how easy h how m how much implication would there be that it s likely you are going to be changing something as opposed to That was the kind of dispute I was making before But the attorneys I I can guarantee you the attorneys will always come back with and we have to decide how stringent we want to be in these things but they will always come back with saying that you need to you want to have someth some paper trail or which includes electronic trail that they have in fact pause O K would it So I think that if you f i if pause we send the email as you have and if there s half the people say who do not respond pause at all by you know some period of time we can just make a list of these people and hand it to you know just give it to me and I will hand it to administrative staff or whatever and they will just call them up and say you know `` have you Is is this OK ? And would you please mail you know mail Adam that it is if i if it you know is or not `` So you know we can we can do that PhD E: The other thing that there s a psychological effect that at least for most people that if they ve responded to your email saying `` yes I will do it `` or `` yes I got your email `` they are more likely to actually do it comment pause later pause than to just ignore it And of course we do not want them to bleep things out but it it s a little bit better if we are getting the their final response once they ve answered you once than if they never answer you would comment at al at all That s how these mailing houses work So I mean it s not completely lost work because it might benefit us in terms of getting pause responses You know an official OK from somebody pause is better than no answer even if they responded that they got your email And they are probably more likely to do that once they ve responded that they got the email Postdoc A: I also think they would just simply appreciate it I think it s a good a good way of of fostering goodwill among our subjects Well our participants Professor B: I think the main thing is I mean what lawyers do is they always look at worst cases So they s so so Tha that s what they are paid to do And so it is certainly possible that somebody s server would be down or something and they would not actually hear from us and then they find this thing is in there and we ve already distributed it to someone So what it says in there in fact is that they will be given an opportunity to blah blah blah but if in fact if we sent them something or we thought we sent them something but they did not actually receive it for some reason then we have not given them that Grad F: Well so how far do we have to go ? Do we need to get someone s signature ? Or is email enough ? Professor B: I i i them email is enough Grad F: Do we have to have it notarized ? I mean OK Professor B: I mean I ve been through this I mean I m not a lawyer but I ve been through these things a f things f like this a few times with lawyers now so I I I I m pretty comfortable with that PhD C: Do you track when people log in to look at the ? Grad F: If they submit the form I get it If they do not submit the form it goes in the general web log But that s not sufficient Right ? Cuz if someone just visits the web site that does not pause imply anything in particular PhD C: Except that you know they got the mail Postdoc A: I I could get you on the notify list if you want me to Grad F: I m already on it Postdoc A: For that directory ? OK great Professor B: So again hopefully this should not be quite as odious a problem either way in any of the extremes we ve talked about because we are talking a pretty small pause number of people Grad F: W For this set I m not worried because pause we basically know everyone on it You know they are all more or less here or it s it s Eric and Dan and so on But for some of the others you are talking about visitors who are pause gone from ICSI whose email addresses may or may not work and So what are we going to do when we run into someone that we can not get in touch with ? Postdoc A: I do not think They are so recent these visitors I and and I they are also so They are prominent enough that they are easy to find through I I mean I I w I will be able to if you have any trouble finding them I really think I could find them Professor B: Cuz it what it what it really does promise here is that we will ask their permission and I think you know if you go into a room and close the door and and ask their permission and they are not there it does not seem comment that that s the intent of meaning here So Grad F: Well the qu the question is just whether how active it has to be I mean because they they filled out a contact information and that s where I m sending the information And so far everyone has done email There is not anyone who did any other contact method Professor B: Well the way ICSI goes people who were here ten years ago still have acc have forwards to other accounts and so on So it s unusual that that they Grad F: So my original impression was that that was sufficient that if they give us contact information and that contact information is not accurate that pause we fulfilled our burden PhD E: Then they just come back PhD C: All my files were still here Professor B: So if we get to a boundary case like that then maybe I will call the attorney about it But you know hopefully we will not need to Postdoc A: I d I just do not think we will For all the reasons that we ve discussed Professor B: So we will we will see if we do or not Grad F: Yep And we will see how many people respond to that email So far two people have Professor B: I think very few people will and and and you know people people see long emails about things that they do not think is going to be high priority they typically do not do not read it or half read it Postdoc A: I I did not anticipate this so I that s why I did not give this comment and it I this discussion has made me think it might be nice to have a follow up email within the next couple of days saying `` by the way you know we want to hear back from you by X date and please `` and then add what Liz said `` please respond to please indicate you received this mail `` Professor B: or e well maybe even additionally `` Even if you ve decided you have no changes you would like to make if you could tell us that `` Grad F: Respond to the email comment Yep Postdoc A: Mm It is the first time through the cycle PhD E: Right That would that would definitely work on me You know it makes you feel m like if you were going to p if you are predicting that you might not answer you have a chance now to say that Whereas I I mean I would be much more likely myself given all my email t to respond at that point saying `` you know what I m probably not going to get to it `` or whatever rather than just having seen the email thinking I might get to it and never really pushing myself to actually do it until it s too late PhD C: I was I was thinking that it also pause let us them know that they do not have to go to the page to pause accept this PhD E: Right R Right That s true PhD C: I mean I I So that way they could they can see from that email that if they just write back and say `` I got it no changes `` they are off the hook They do not have to go to the web page Professor B: I mean the other thing I ve learned from dealing with dealing with people sending in reviews and so forth is if you say `` you ve got three months to do this review `` people do it you know two and seven eighths months from now If you say `` you ve got three weeks to do this review `` they do do it you know two and seven eighths weeks from now they do the review And So if we make it pause a little less time I do not think it will be that much Grad F: Well and also if we want it ready by the fifteenth that means we better give them deadline of the first if we have any prayer of actually getting everyone to respond in time Professor B: There s the responding part and there s also what if I mean I hope this does not happen what if there are a bunch of deletions that have to get put in and changes ? Then we actually have to deal with that if we want it to Postdoc A: By the way has has Jeremy signed the form ? Grad F: oh my god ! I had not thought about that That for every meeting any meeting which has any bleeps in it we need yet another copy of Grad D: Can not you just do that channel ? PhD C: Oh no We have to do PhD E: You have to do all of them Grad F: You need all the channels PhD C: Do you have to do the other close talking ? PhD E: as well as all of these You have to do all You could just do it in that time period though Grad F: Yes Absolutely There s a lot of cross talk PhD E: but I guess it s a pain Grad F: Well but you have to copy the whole file Right ? Because we are going to be releasing the whole file Postdoc A: Well I you know I think at a certain point that copy that has the deletions will become the master copy Grad F: It s just I hate deleting any data So I I do not want I really would rather make a copy of it rather than bleep it out Professor B: Are you del are you bleeping it by adding ? Grad F: and then Overlapping So it s it s exactly a censor bleep So what I really think is `` bleep `` Professor B: I I I I understand but is is it summing signals Grad F: and then I want to Professor B: or do you pause delete the old one and put the new one in ? Grad F: I delete the old one put the new one in There s nothing left of the original signal Professor B: Oh Cuz if you were summing you could No But anyway Grad F: It would be qui quite easy to get it back again Postdoc A: But And then w I was going to say also that the they do not have to stay on the system as you know PhD E: Then someday we can sell the pause unedited versions Postdoc A: cuz cuz the the ones Once it s been successfully bleeped can not you rely on the ? PhD C: Or pause we will tell people the frequency of the beep and then they could subtract the beep out Postdoc A: Can not you rely on the archiving to preserve the older version ? Grad D: It would not be that hard to hide it Grad F: that s true Yep that s true PhD E: See this is good I wanted to create some pause side conversations in these meetings Professor B: You could encrypt it you know with a with a two hundred bit thousand bit Grad D: You can use spread spectrum PhD E: Cuz we do not have enough asides PhD H: I have an idea You reverse the signal so it it let us people say what they said backwards Grad D: Then you have like subliminal messages Grad F: But ha you ve seen the this the speech recognition system that reversed very short segments Did you read that paper ? It would not work The speech recognizer still works PhD E: And if you do it backward then PhD C: That s cuz they use forward backward Grad F: Forward but backward That s right PhD E: No it s backward forward Grad F: Good point A point Well I m sorry if I sound a little peeved about this whole thing It s just we ve had meeting after meeting after meeting a on this and it seems like we ve never gotten it resolved Professor B: Well but we never also we ve also never done it Postdoc A: This is the first cycle There are bound to be some glitches the first time through Professor B: So And and I m sorry responding without having much knowledge but the thing is I am like one of these people who gets a gazillion mails and and stuff comes in as Grad F: Well and that s exactly why I did it the way I did it which is the default is if you do nothing we are going to release it Because you know I have my pause stack of emails of to d to be done that you know fifty or sixty long and the ones at the top I m never going to get to","The team thought that people would not respond to their emails, which would be compounded by them being out of town over the summer. Based on knowledge about similar data collection, they thought that emails should be enough, but skepticism about getting consent with emails prevailed." "Grad F: So I do not expect anyone to But Professor B: So w what follows ? At some point y you go around and get people to sign something ? Grad F: No We had spoken w about this before and we had decided that they have they only needed to sign once And the agreement that they already signed simply said that we would give them an opportunity So as long as we do that we are covered Professor B: And how long of an opportunity did you tell them ?","Grad F was responsible for bringing up the topic. Apparently, no one had replied to the emails allowing people to bleep things out so far. According to Grad F, as long as the email was sent out, the team was covered. Grad F thought this had been settled when the project started and did not need to be revisited." "Postdoc A: And then I also the final thing I have for transcription is that I made a purchase of some other headphones because of the problem of low gain in the originals And and they very much appro they mu much prefer the new ones and actually I I mean I I think that there will be fewer things to correct because of the the choice We would originally chosen very expensive head headsets but they are just not as good as these in this with this respect to this particular task PhD H: Well return the old ones Grad F: It s probably impedance matching problems Postdoc A: I do not know exactly but we chose them because that s what s been used here by prominent projects in transcription So it i we had every reason to think they would work PhD H: So you have spare headsets ? You have spare headsets ? Grad F: They are just earphones They are not headsets They are not microphones PhD H: No no I mean just earphones ? because I I could use one on my workstation just to t because sometimes I have to listen to audio files and I do not have to b go borrow it from someone and Postdoc A: We have actua actually I have W Well the thing is that if we have four people come to work pause for a day I was I was hanging on to the others for eh for spares but I can tell you what I recommend Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock PhD E: That would be a good idea Grad F: W could you email out the brand ? Cuz I think sounds like people are interested Postdoc A: It s made a difference in in how easy Professor B: I realized something I should talk about So what s the other thing on the agenda actually ? Grad F: the only one was Don wanted to talk about disk space yet again Grad D: you It s short I mean if you want to go we can just throw it in at the end Professor B: No no Why do not you why do not you go ahead since it s short Grad F: Oh I thought you meant the disk space we know disk space is short PhD H: The disk space was short That s what I thought too PhD E: That s a great ambiguity It s one of these it s it s social Professor B: It s I i i it i PhD E: See if I had that little pause scratch pad I would have made an X there Grad F: well we will give you one then Grad D: So without thinking about it when I offered up my hard drive last week this is always a suspect phrase PhD E: It was while I was out of town Grad D: But no I I realized that we are going to be doing a lot of experiments o for this paper we are writing so we are probably going to need a lot more We are probably going to need that disk space that we had on that eighteen gig hard drive But we also have someone else coming in that s going to help us out with some stuff Professor B: We ve just ordered a hundred gigabytes Grad D: So OK We just need to PhD E: I think we need like another eighteen gig disk pause to be safe Professor B: Well we are getting three thirty thirty sixes That are going into the main f file server PhD C: Markham s ordering and they should be coming in soon Grad D: I mean I guess the thing is is all I need is to hang it off like the person who s coming in Sonali s computer PhD H: Oh so so you mean the d the internal the disks on the machines that we just got ? Grad D: Whew Or we can move them PhD C: These are going to go onto Abbott Professor B: Onto Abbott the file server Grad D: So are we going to move the stuff off of my hard drive onto that when those come in ? Grad F: Once they come in Sure PhD E: Do when when is this planned for pause roughly ? PhD C: They should be I I imagine next week or something Grad F: If you are if you are desperate I have some space on my drive Grad D: I think if I m Grad F: But I I vacillate between no space free and pause a few gig free Grad D: I think I can find something if I m desperate and in the meantime I will just hold out That was the only thing I wanted to bring up PhD C: It should be soon We we should Professor B: So there s another hundred gig So OK It s great to be able to do it just say `` oh a hundred gig Grad F: A hundred gig here a hundred gig there PhD E: Well each meeting is like a gig or something Grad F: It s eventually real disk space",The team decided that it would be a good idea to purchase headphones. They also ordered a hundred gigabytes of disk space though they thought an extra eighteen for backup would not be a bad idea. This was good because the team was currently constrained by space. "Postdoc A: but they are just not as good as these in this with this respect to this particular task PhD H: Well return the old ones Grad F: It s probably impedance matching problems Postdoc A: I do not know exactly but we chose them because that s what s been used here by prominent projects in transcription So it i we had every reason to think they would work PhD H: So you have spare headsets ? You have spare headsets ? Grad F: They are just earphones They are not headsets They are not microphones PhD H: No no I mean just earphones ? because I I could use one on my workstation just to t because sometimes I have to listen to audio files and I do not have to b go borrow it from someone and Postdoc A: We have actua actually I have W Well the thing is that if we have four people come to work pause for a day I was I was hanging on to the others for eh for spares but I can tell you what I recommend Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock","Postdoc A thought that the original headphones had low gain, so he purchased new earphones. He informed the team that he just bought them from Cambridge SoundWorks down the street. They always have them in stock." "Professor B: No but you would If you w we should get it Grad F: But if you need it just get it Postdoc A: It would just have to be a s a separate order an added order Grad D: I still I still need to get a pair too Professor B: They are they are they are they are pretty inexpensive PhD E: that We should order a cou t two or three or four actually Grad D: I m using one of these PhD H: I think I have a pair that I brought from home but it s f just for music listening Professor B: No Just just just just buy them PhD E: Sh Just get the model number PhD H: and it s not Nnn PhD E: and Where do you buy these from ? Postdoc A: Cambridge SoundWorks just down the street PhD E: Like ? You just b go and b Postdoc A: They always have them in stock PhD E: That would be a good idea Grad F: W could you email out the brand ? Cuz I think sounds like people are interested Postdoc A: It s made a difference in in how easy Professor B: I realized something I should talk about So what s the other thing on the agenda actually ? Grad F: the only one was Don wanted to talk about disk space yet again Grad D: you It s short I mean if you want to go we can just throw it in at the end Professor B: No no Why do not you why do not you go ahead since it s short Grad F: Oh I thought you meant the disk space we know disk space is short PhD H: The disk space was short That s what I thought too PhD E: That s a great ambiguity It s one of these it s it s social Professor B: It s I i i it i PhD E: See if I had that little pause scratch pad I would have made an X there Grad F: well we will give you one then Grad D: So without thinking about it when I offered up my hard drive last week this is always a suspect phrase PhD E: It was while I was out of town Grad D: But no I I realized that we are going to be doing a lot of experiments o for this paper we are writing so we are probably going to need a lot more We are probably going to need that disk space that we had on that eighteen gig hard drive But we also have someone else coming in that s going to help us out with some stuff Professor B: We ve just ordered a hundred gigabytes Grad D: So OK We just need to PhD E: I think we need like another eighteen gig disk pause to be safe Professor B: Well we are getting three thirty thirty sixes",The professor thought that anyone who needed headphones should purchase them since they were not very expensive. He wanted to get the discussion about disk space out of the way. He informed the team that he had ordered a hundred gigabytes. "Industrial Designer: they are in the LCD panel and the jogdial ? Project Manager: So w what kind of thing is going to be Industrial Designer: The LCD panel just displays functionally what you are doing If you are using an advanced function right like c brightness contrast whatever it will just say You know it is like it only has four columns it is a very simple LCD like whereas many the minimum amount we need that the user will automatically know like this is brightness or this is contrast It might even be one a bit more complex LCD panel with pictures like maybe the sun or the you know the the symbols of the various functions Marketing: Mmhmm and what is this here ? Industrial Designer: That is a number pad Marketing: so the number pad is Kay great Project Manager: Where are we going to have the slogan ? Industrial Designer: they are al along this User Interface: You know just like right inside there Industrial Designer: You have this space here and then you have this thing on the side as well or at the bottom Because slogans are usually quite small right they are not like huge say a buttons about this size right so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan say even for that Project Manager: So if this is not to scale what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ? User Interface: Well we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger so we reckon maybe that will be about the same size as the palm of your hand Industrial Designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button so one two three four centimetres Plus maybe half o five Project Manager: Six seven eight nine ten So we are talking about ten centimetres That would be good So ten centimetres in height Marketing: That would be good in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually so that would be that sounds like a really good size if you see it there Project Manager: That is great and it is very bright as well So Marketing: Mm Is it possible I am just going to bring up the idea of colours Is these are these the colours that of production or is this just what we had available ? User Interface: Well I am We are going to have again the the sort of the foggy yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button Project Manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report User Interface: But this button because it is red it is sort of very prominent we are going to use it as it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it will send a standby signal apart from that it is going to be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and you use this as a jogdial Project Manager: so that is like an button right Industrial Designer: Oh we have discussed how h high it is but how wide is it ? Marketing: How high is it ? Industrial Designer: No as in the height but what about the width ? User Interface: Did not put five centimetres Project Manager: like depth of the actual thing Industrial Designer: Do we need five ? I do not think five is be about th three and a half Project Manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there So you can power on and off what else can you do ? User Interface: you can skip straight to a channel using these buttons were going to have the volume control here but because we have got the the LCD and the jogdial we just thought we would use that as the volume Project Manager: jogdial for volume And what else do you do with the jogdial ? User Interface: you can use it for more advanced functions like contrast colour and just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions we did not actually go through and specify the Project Manager: Well of the designers what are they ? User Interface: what can a TV do ? Project Manager: That is a good one Industrial Designer: What else ? the various inputs Are you having a VCR are you having you know which input do you have ? Yep colour sharpness a lot of these things will have to be free and open for users to define them Project Manager: Sharpness what about sound settings ? d can you change any of those at all ? Industrial Designer: Audio we have like your basic y your base your midrange your high range Yep leftright balance maybe even preprogrammed sound modes like the user could determine like a series of sound modes and then what could happen would be when you click on that then it would go to that setting","User Interface indicated to have a simple LCD screen to cut down the budget, while Industrial Designer suggested the application of a little more complex LCD panel, like the number pad, could display the advanced functions possibly used by the users. Marketing and Project Manager agreed with Industrial Designer. Next, the group turned to discuss some details, like the total size for the button, and the various functions of the button as well as a jog-dial." "Industrial Designer: say a buttons about this size right so you would still have plenty of space for a slogan say even for that Project Manager: So if this is not to scale what kind of dimensions are you thinking about here ? User Interface: Well we want the other buttons to be big enough to push easily with a finger so we reckon maybe that will be about the same size as the palm of your hand Industrial Designer: Yep so that would be about a centimetre for a button so one two three four centimetres Plus maybe half o five Project Manager: Six seven eight nine ten So we are talking about ten centimetres That would be good So ten centimetres in height Marketing: That would be good in fact a pen is about ten centimetres usually so that would be that sounds like a really good size if you see it there Project Manager: That is great and it is very bright as well So Marketing: Mm Is it possible I am just going to bring up the idea of colours Is these are these the colours that of production or is this just what we had available ? User Interface: Well I am We are going to have again the the sort of the foggy yellow from last time that lit up when you pushed the button Project Manager: could you just list all the things that it does s so I can write them in the report User Interface: But this button because it is red it is sort of very prominent we are going to use it as it can be the power button if you hold it for maybe two seconds it will send a standby signal apart from that it is going to be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and you use this as a jogdial Project Manager: so that is like an button right Industrial Designer: Oh we have discussed how h high it is but how wide is it ? Marketing: How high is it ? Industrial Designer: No as in the height but what about the width ? User Interface: Did not put five centimetres Project Manager: like depth of the actual thing Industrial Designer: Do we need five ? I do not think five is be about th three and a half Project Manager: Oh is this k to get an idea of scale from your from your thing there So you can power on and off what else can you do ? User Interface: you can skip straight to a channel using these buttons","The button was red with a width of three centimeters and a half. As for the function, it could be used as a confirm button for the LCD screen and a power button if the user held it for around two seconds." "User Interface: were going to have the volume control here but because we have got the the LCD and the jogdial we just thought we would use that as the volume Project Manager: jogdial for volume And what else do you do with the jogdial ? User Interface: you can use it for more advanced functions like contrast colour and just whatever else we wanted to include as the advanced functions we did not actually go through and specify the Project Manager: Well of the designers what are they ? User Interface: what can a TV do ? Project Manager: That is a good one Industrial Designer: What else ? the various inputs Are you having a VCR are you having you know which input do you have ? Yep colour sharpness a lot of these things will have to be free and open for users to define them Project Manager: Sharpness what about sound settings ? d can you change any of those at all ? Industrial Designer: Audio we have like your basic y your base your midrange your high range Yep leftright balance maybe even preprogrammed sound modes like the user could determine like a series of sound modes and then what could happen would be when you click on that then it would go to that setting Project Manager: is there anything else at all it can do ? That because that is that is fine Just need to know so I can write it down right I g I guess that is it so we can now We can now have a little look at the the Excel sheet and price listing and see if we need to if we need to rethink anything at all","The jog dial can be used to control volume, contrast, brightness, channels, auxiliary inputs, color, sharpness, sound, audio, left-right balance, and pre-programmed sound modes." "Project Manager: then I would say two or three Industrial Designer: Wait what is the scale one to seven right ? User Interface: Ones highish is not it ? Ah so two or three Marketing: Let us go with two point five then Project Manager: Well it has the wee jogdial Marketing: so we have had to remove a few of our features we wanted Project Manager: I would go with three or four Industrial Designer: but going towards a little bit higher than medium kind of thing Marketing: Style reflects a fruit inspired colour design I should not have said colour but just Industrial Designer: the blue the blue colours and do not re do not actually represent the colour Project Manager: Well that is kind of Industrial Designer: except for the b the the red button they because for want of a Project Manager: But the yellow I mean it could be a lemon yellow colour Industrial Designer: the the yellow is more representative of the colour but the button itself the blue can be anything else Marketing: so we will go two ? and design is simple to use simple in features Project Manager: Well I mean it is really basic looking is not it ? Marketing: F f f fairly basic Project Manager: I mean I would give that nearly a one Marketing: one ? soft and spongy have we achieved that ? We have used mostly plastic in the end so it is going to be quite a bit of a compromise for price User Interface: I think it is about five Project Manager: Five ? That is really low User Interface: well we have to use plastic so it is probably going to be Marketing: could we have used an entirely rubber frame to it ? Was that an option ? Industrial Designer: I think it will be cost prohibitive User Interface: I think I would probably increase the cost Marketing: It would cost more than plastic User Interface: We have only got like what ten cents left so Marketing: logo we have got it in there have not we ? Project Manager: Yep Going To have that on the side are not we like there or something ? Marketing: Huh And it is within budget yep It is is not it ? so we can say then that out of a possible or what would be our goal here ? Project Manager: Out of forty nine I guess Marketing: out of forty nine with with zero being the highest We are at two seven eight ten fifteen point five So it is pretty good Translates to something like about approximately seventy two percent efficacy of our original goal Right ? I think because if you turn that into a hundred it would be about and then invert that it is Project Manager: So ab well about sixty nine seventy percent Marketing: Oh right about seventy seventy percent good That was just a little formality for us to go through Yep oh hundred pound pen Project Manager: Is that you all have all finished or Marketing: that is that is me I did have one other one other frame I thought I mean I I d not knowing how we would deal with this information I thought in theory this kind of a process would be about refining our design revisiting our original goals It is not something I need to p push through but I thought should we thinking more about the dimensions sort of like more of a three dimensional shapes as well as opposed to just that flat Could our design involve a series of colours so that it is more of like a line where we have like sort of the I do not know like the harvest line or the vibrant I do not know the Whatever just some theme and then we have different tones lime green lemon It is just discussion I mean obviously we can just abandon this it is fine I am just thinking about what we originally set out to do yep so there That is all Project Manager: great are you submitting the the evaluation criteria or am I ? I do not know what your instructions have been Marketing: I think to record it and I have not been asked to submit it yet Project Manager: just wondering if I need to include it in the minutes because if you are submitting it anyway then Industrial Designer: It keeps getting too big Project Manager: Cool right well next up then because we have done finance is the project evaluation Industrial Designer: Kay I am I am listening I am just trying to incorporate the logo into the the thing so I am playing with the PlayDoh as well Just in case you are wondering why is he still playing with the PlayDoh ? Project Manager: Right well do you want to just individually say what you think about about these four points and or not those four points my four points sorry forgotten that You got a different Marketing: Yep I like those printer cables that just have the two little butterfly clips like that Project Manager: Oh they are good are not they here we are as a note we will do this alphabetically do you want to start Andrew ? Marketing: Sure so what is it you are asking of me now ? Project Manager: I do not know just your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them Marketing: Or sort of our work on setting this up Well is it I will just go through your system then The the room is fairly institutional but the main thing is I think our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion you know as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity whereas in reality as we have gone through this it is not really the centre point of creativity it is more just a Project Manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ? Marketing: d debating but that is just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there the room it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then you know Project Manager: But I do not I do not think it means the room as in this room I think it means like you know Marketing: Oh oh right right oh right room for creativ Oh right I just looked up and saw whiteboard digital pens the room Project Manager: Well I do not know do you th I think it means I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so Marketing: Sorry Huh I th on th dif answering the question in those terms I would say that actually there is sort of a tease of creativity because we are asked to work through this but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of fashion trends say fruit and vegetable colour scheme but then i then we are told use the co company company colours So what do we do We are told think in terms of style and look and feel and technology but build something for twelve and a half pounds so actually the creativity was more more of like a a f sort of a f formality then an actual Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think So still on the topic of room for creativity next up is Craig User Interface: I agree with his point it is it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right got to cut everything out because we do not have enough money Industrial Designer: I think another point is that the meetings are more brainstorming sessions than meetings so time is also a very s strong factor and structure Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to allows ideas to get tossed to be evaluated and to be reviewed and to get feedback and come back And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that I think that is a very big thing and I think the fact that we are wearing these things restricts I feel it because I wear m my glasses right and that but that irritates me right it it it does actually you know affect how w whether you feel comfortable to communicate I feel like I am hiding behind the equipment rather than the equipment is helping me and you know Project Manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or Industrial Designer: Not not so much an atmosphere the atmosphere is very relaxed but the the gear you know that creates boundaries to that and and the time the time given also restricts Project Manager: Very good what about leadership ? I do not know if that means like if I did a good job or something I do not really know Marketing: well well I mean my sense on that is sort of what kind of guidance and direction encouragement Project Manager: From like your personal coach person and stuff like that do you think maybe ? Marketing: from and you as well I think just sort of acting as team leader I think I think it is I think it is good I mean my personal views on on leadership is that effective effective leadership sort of gives people a certain room for freedom and delegation but then to come back with something that they take great ownership and you know innovative thought with In in reality I think here the the different elements of leadership such as the the original b briefing and then the personal coach and the and then you know having having you with your the meeting agenda is actually quite a quite a quite a con confining framework to work within And so it is leadership almost to the point of sort of disempowering the the the team member so But it is not bad leadership it is just sort of s fairly strong you know It turns it turns the individual into more of like a sort of a predetermined mechanism as opposed to a sort of a free Project Manager: So you think maybe a little too controlling or Marketing: oh without without a doubt Industrial Designer: I think controlling is not the right word I think the interactions are very structured I think structure is probably what you are saying that each individual is structured to one particular task and one parti rather than controlling I do not think there is a sense of control because all the decisions have been made in terms of a like a consensus right we go around and we think about it but that you know process actually says you have to do it in a certain way It does not tell you you know some ways that you might want to be a bit more creative in terms of the process you know not the Marketing: did you want to comment Craig ? User Interface: reckon that was a bit hard because we could only discuss things in the meeting If we could just go up to somebody outside the meeting and have a quick talk with them that would have been a lot easier Industrial Designer: I think you tried to use the common share folder to to to to communicate but it just comes back to us so slow in the email it it does not have a you know a messenger will go Project Manager: Did did you guys get the email I sent you ? I was wondering if that got there so to s to to summarize the teamwork issue saying that if we could communicate outside the meeting you know just like quick questions quick thoughts whatever it probably would be bit easier Industrial Designer: I think the tools that they were given the tool set that were given to us are fancy but they do not support collaboration I think that is the word They do not support the team working together you know Marketing: exactly I mean if you Industrial Designer: they are still very individual tools Marketing: I mean sort of taking upon that idea w the way I see this i is that it is the the s the structure in which we have we have approached this whole task is quite contrary to the p principle of teamwork because the the tasks were d d sort of divided and then the work went on in isolation I I do not know what you guys did while you were together maybe that was a bit different but but but actually if you if you imagine not entire the completely same task given to us but us said first thing we have to do is come up with let us say a design concept and we sit here together and do it well that is what teamwork is To s to say go off and do not talk to each other it is actually p sort of predisposes you to quite the contrary of teamwork not that we have not done I think the best we could have done I am not dissatisfied with it Project Manager: Right anything else to say on teamwork at all ? what about the you know how we used the whiteboard the digital pens the projector stuff like that ? did anybody think anything was like really useful anything was pretty un f unsupportive ? Marketing: I think the whiteboard for me is the kind of thing I would use all the time but it is not quite as useful as to us as it could have been maybe just in the way that we we use it in the sense that once we have an idea out there or while work was going on in between meetings that could have been up on a board you know as opposed to in like in text and then we could then keep our ideas sort of building on that I know that people who design cars and you know in aviation they quite often just have a simple like fibreglass prototype and it is completely you know abs abstract from the final product but they use it as a kind of a context to sort of walk around and puzzle and and point and discuss Project Manager: Mmhmm And point at ? Marketing: and and and in a way everybodys as we discuss things in the in theoretically and out of our notebooks we are just we are actually just each of us discussing something that is in each of our own minds It was not until we had this here you know like at one point I peeked across and looked at Craigs paper and I am like now I know what he is thinking because I saw his book But the b the b whiteboard could have actually been this kind of continuing Project Manager: So do you think producing a prototype earlier in the process would have been a good idea ? Industrial Designer: I think the the focus of it a lot was the PowerPoint as opposed to the to the whiteboard and I think that m is also does you know hinder us and things I think It will be cooler to have the whiteboard rather than the the PowerPoint or maybe the whiteboard and the PowerPoint in the same place you know in the centre of the Marketing: because the PowerPoint was provided to us while we had time to prepare whereas I can imagine if I would been encouraged to use Paintbrush for example or whatever I would have actually used it ca you know just because that is sorta how we what we were set up to to use while we had our time Industrial Designer: I think that there were too many PowerPoints in the meetings Because the plugin and the plugging spent we spent a lot of time doing that And a lot of the information on the PowerPoints I do not think you know we needed to actually it could have we could have gone through it verbally I felt that they just you know as opposed to having to present them Project Manager: What about the digital pens did you find them easy enough to use ? User Interface: Oh they are a bit clunky Industrial Designer: Having to tick it before you go off was a bit hindering as well because you are half way through a thought and then you run out of paper and then you have to jump Project Manager: I know I think at the very start of today I like wrote a whole load of stuff did not click note on one then went back and wrote one tiny wee thing on the another page but then did click note and so I am quite worried that I have just written over the top of it or something but they will have my paper anyway and have not done that since Industrial Designer: But I think the pen is v is very intuitive everybody knows how to use it we do not have to worry So I think the pens good It is about the best thing Marketing: And o on the topic of the technology it just occurred to me that we actually did not need to move our computers because each computer has all of the files It just occurred to me that they all Industrial Designer: we only needed one computer and Marketing: We only actually needed one computer If there had been a fifth that coulda just been sitting there ready to go the whole time Industrial Designer: And the computer may not be conducive to a meeting because you tend to look at your computer and want to have the urge to check something you know Project Manager: Do you think the computers just provide distraction in a meeting ? Industrial Designer: I think too many computers are just distracting Project Manager: I know I I like to have things written down in front of me actually like a lot of the stuff that was emailed to me I ended up you know like writing down there or something so I could look at it really quickly and not have the distraction of all of that I do not know about anybody else what else any wh I do I am not really sure what they are looking for when they say new ideas found I do not know is User Interface: Is this for the project or Project Manager: could you think of like anything else that would have been helpful today at all ? Marketing: Well the w main one for me is that the process na in a natural f context would not have been interrupted by this necessity to discommunicate ourselves from each other Project Manager: Mm if we just had Marketing: So that is kind of a new idea for me is like just sort of that idea well you know it is kind of s hard to keep f working forward on a team a team based project when when you are told you must now work away from your team Project Manager: Mmhmm I I do not know I think it was quite good that we had time limits on the meetings because they really could have run on and like my experience with meetings is that they really do and you can spend a lot of time talking about The only thing is though like when we had our meeting about the conceptual design I thought there maybe another fifteen minutes would have been useful there but I really thi i I think maybe if we would like all been working in the one room and they just said you know like every hour or something everybody make sure yo you know just have a have a short meeting and then just c just to have like something written down just like you know a a milestone if you like rather than having meetings but There you go so in closing I have not got my five minutes to go Thin Oh there it i Five minutes to go Wonderful are the costs within the budget yes they are And is the project evaluated yes it is So now celebrate Industrial Designer: And we have Ninja Homer Marketing: So it So now we Project Manager: Well apparently now I write the final report What are you guys doing now ? User Interface: Do we know what the other ones are ? Marketing: I I do not know Project Manager: You do not know ? User Interface: Hey I said Ninja Homer Marketing: What did you call it ? Industrial Designer: Ninja Homer See it looks like Homer Simpson but it is electronic so it is made in Japan Project Manager: So is that j is that just is that just a logo or does it do anything ? Industrial Designer: it is just a logo Project Manager: Just a logo and then like Ninja Homer Industrial Designer: The the red is supposed to represent the whatever else you want to print on the side of it Project Manager: I think it is quite nice Industrial Designer: you can throw Homer when you are frustrated doh Project Manager: Oh no that is cool it is got I am kind of I am slightly gutted that we could not get plastic and rubber I think that would have been nice Ah well maybe from now on real reaction should give us more money Industrial Designer: Oh I did learn something new PlayDoh is useful No it is it is It is useful and in in in in in in in conceptualizing in being creative Because like you say it is something you can put your hands on and feel and touch and get a sense for Like we were playing with the PlayDoh and the ideas came with the PlayDoh rather than with everything else You might want to write that down It is just I am just fiddling with the PlayDoh and I am going it is kind of cool User Interface: Guess I would forgot how good s PlayDoh smells Project Manager: it smells funny does not it Marketing: And some PlayDohs are actually I think edible are not they ? Industrial Designer: No all PlayDoh is edible User Interface: I think they are all nontoxic because it is aimed for like twoyearolds Project Manager: I think it has to be Industrial Designer: It is just wheat it is the stuff that your mom could make with preservatives and Project Manager: wha what are your summarising words about PlayDoh ? Industrial Designer: It is helpful to the creative process it engages all your senses not just your sight but your sense of feel your sense of touch And it helps you to understand dimension as well I think that that is very helpful because it it starts to pop up whereas on a piece of paper on a computer on a board even with a three D graphic thing it still it requires a lot of User Interface: it is not very tangible Industrial Designer: tangible that is a nice word Project Manager: Mm I do not know if there is anything else we needed to discuss That that is about it really Just sit still I guess for a little while Marketing: Do we retreat to our to continue our Industrial Designer: I think we could probably do it here as long as we do not collaborate Marketing: r reporting or what i Project Manager: Well I do not know I am sure the little the little thingll pop up any minute now Industrial Designer: Can we turn off the microphones ? Project Manager: if the meetings over then I guess so","Project Manager wanted the members to evaluate the whole process of the project, such as the system, leadership, teamwork, and tools given. The meeting system was considered creative yet inefficient as the early designs were found generally out of budget. As for leadership, the process was a bit too structured. As for teamwork, additional communications like the quick talk could further prompt the current system. Besides, the tools given were criticized for the isolation of each's tasks and thoughts." "Marketing: Sure so what is it you are asking of me now ? Project Manager: I do not know just your opinion on those four those four points really and how we used them Marketing: Or sort of our work on setting this up Well is it I will just go through your system then The the room is fairly institutional but the main thing is I think our use of this space is more just to report on things as opposed to be creative and constructive and it would probably help to have l sort of a cumulative effect of we have ideas and we come back and then the ideas are still in discussion you know as in other words this this room is sort of a centre point of creativity whereas in reality as we have gone through this it is not really the centre point of creativity it is more just a Project Manager: Well d do you feel though that that you were able to have quite a lot of creative input into the thing ? Marketing: d debating but that is just the thing is the quest in terms of the the first point there the room it feels as though the creativity goes on when we leave and then we come here and then we kind of put out our ideas and then you know Project Manager: But I do not I do not think it means the room as in this room I think it means like you know Marketing: Oh oh right right oh right room for creativ Oh right I just looked up and saw whiteboard digital pens the room Project Manager: Well I do not know do you th I think it means I think it means did you feel you were able to give creative input so Marketing: Sorry Huh I th on th dif answering the question in those terms I would say that actually there is sort of a tease of creativity because we are asked to work through this but actually the guidelines are fairly contrived in terms of fashion trends say fruit and vegetable colour scheme but then i then we are told use the co company company colours So what do we do We are told think in terms of style and look and feel and technology but build something for twelve and a half pounds so actually the creativity was more more of like a a f sort of a f formality then an actual Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think","Marketing thought Project Manager's system was fairly institutional with a central point of creativity, but the group ought to focus more on the stylish look and technology and make a proper consideration on the budget." "Industrial Designer: You feel like you are caged within whatever y It is like a balloon in a cage it can only go so big and not hit the side The constraints do come in very fast Project Manager: actually let us take each point and everybody discuss it I think So still on the topic of room for creativity next up is Craig User Interface: I agree with his point it is it is quite a lot of fun t to go and then you have sort of hit the end then go right got to cut everything out because we do not have enough money Industrial Designer: I think another point is that the meetings are more brainstorming sessions than meetings so time is also a very s strong factor and structure Because for a brainstorming meeting you want a structure that allows you to allows ideas to get tossed to be evaluated and to be reviewed and to get feedback and come back And I guess that point about the room not being r very friendly to that I think that is a very big thing and I think the fact that we are wearing these things restricts I feel it because I wear m my glasses right and that but that irritates me right it it it does actually you know affect how w whether you feel comfortable to communicate I feel like I am hiding behind the equipment rather than the equipment is helping me and you know Project Manager: So you think a more relaxed atmosphere would be more kind of conducive to creative thought or Industrial Designer: Not not so much an atmosphere the atmosphere is very relaxed but the the gear you know that creates boundaries to that and and the time the time given also restricts","Industrial Designer thought the meeting was not friendly to the brainstorming. The restriction was not about the atmosphere but related to the actual environment and the limited time for discussion. Besides, the interaction was structured, meaning each individual took charge of one particular task without enough collaboration between each other. Also, communication through email was inefficient." "User Interface: Right Thank you Mines not quite as complicated as all that Project Manager: That is what we like to hear User Interface: Did I press function ? Project Manager: Is it control function ei Oh th there you go User Interface: Oh so I am going to talk a bit about the technical functions design I am Louisa the User Interface Designer as you know so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set so that a desired function is performed an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down so obviously you need two different buttons for that to change the channel either by pressing the number that you want or by channel up or down to switch the television on or off maybe a standby button here are two example remotes by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward rewind functions so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we will not have to worry about but as you can see the left remote is quite quite busy looking quite complicated whereas the right remote is much simpler it looks much more user friendly so my personal preference would be the right remote So it is got nice big buttons it is got a very limited number of buttons they are nice kind of clearly labelled I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that So it is very very user friendly and it is got a little splash of colour Could maybe do with some more colour Project Manager: Well there is a couple of things there we have to remember that we have our own logo and colour scheme So basically we would have to we would have to be putting that on the the product User Interface: Do we get to see that ? Project Manager: I have not as yet no User Interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? Project Manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan So I am guessing that I notice on the bottom there it is got what is that ? APOGEE that might be the corporate colour scheme although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red Industrial Designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here the the sort of circular section because that seems to be for a video as well So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume Possibly ? User Interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? Like all of that bottom bit ? Industrial Designer: just this little bit is that I think that is still a video remote part so maybe we could get rid of that as well User Interface: And I do not really think that you need nine numbers I mean how often do you use seven eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough Project Manager: Well th the on the User Interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? Project Manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time and we would have to have some room for future such channels But but Industrial Designer: It is just people are used to seeing that so if we did not have them then they might think it is Project Manager: But well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place certainly the button up and down but I mean how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it is forever expanding and at the moment we have got although you have onl you have got the five standard you have got the BBC have come up with a further six and there is I do not know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others So I would have thought that we would not you know rather if the time of flicking from one to other but presumably it will take a second because you have to be able to stop it Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise Y you would want you would want to get fairly quickly to the channel that you wanted User Interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six if that is a favourite you just like bypass two to five Project Manager: I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you have got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred you could go one to one to ten ten to twenty and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want and that would cut down your time User Interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff that would be tuned to one channel and then you would have another remote for all of those channels Like to get to fifty five and the higher numbers Project Manager: Limit the number of buttons user friendly User Interface: But I suppose nines not really excessive Industrial Designer: I suppose with nine you have got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it is like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number User Interface: I suppose it does make a good pattern Industrial Designer: So with that we would kind of bypass any problems with Project Manager: you could get fifty by five and a zero or whatever that that makes sense Industrial Designer: Because that facilitates having all the numbers you could ever need Project Manager: So w so what was the circular thing that you were User Interface: I think that is just for a video so we would not need any of that at all Industrial Designer: So we could get it down to what ? Project Manager: If it is just for TV which is what it is at the moment Industrial Designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We have just got ten eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need I guess which is not really too many That will be quite easy to make a user guide for a fourteen button remote Project Manager: Mmhmm Well we have we have got that it is remote for TV only otherwise project would become too complex with which would endanger the time to market was one of the considerations I am I do not know d did you have that information behind the marketing or was I meant to give you that information ? Marketing: I am not sure I had I have had some market information but not from the company no Project Manager: Right so basically time to market seems to be important therefore speed of delivery We have only got about another four hours left User Interface: so is everyone happy with that ? Industrial Designer: Ah yes yes that seems good User Interface: Right well that is the end of my presentation","User Interface preferred a more user-friendly remote with nice big buttons and limited number of buttons. She also gave her suggestions about the symbol and colour of the remote. Then, they discussed the number of buttons on the remote." "User Interface: Oh so I am going to talk a bit about the technical functions design I am Louisa the User Interface Designer as you know so the m basic method of this is to send a signal from the remote to the television set so that a desired function is performed an example of the function could be to change the volume up or down so obviously you need two different buttons for that to change the channel either by pressing the number that you want or by channel up or down to switch the television on or off maybe a standby button here are two example remotes by the look of it they both have kind of play and fast forward rewind functions so I think they incorporate a kind of video function which we will not have to worry about but as you can see the left remote is quite quite busy looking quite complicated whereas the right remote is much simpler it looks much more user friendly so my personal preference would be the right remote So it is got nice big buttons it is got a very limited number of buttons they are nice kind of clearly labelled I like the use of the kind of symbols like the triangles and the squares and the arrows as well as the words on the kind of play functions and all that So it is very very user friendly and it is got a little splash of colour Could maybe do with some more colour Project Manager: Well there is a couple of things there we have to remember that we have our own logo and colour scheme So basically we would have to we would have to be putting that on the the product User Interface: Do we get to see that ? Project Manager: I have not as yet no User Interface: Will you be presenting that in a bit ? Project Manager: But I got I got an email that basically said to make sure that whatever device we come up with at the end of the day had to incorporate the corporate colour and slogan So I am guessing that I notice on the bottom there it is got what is that ? APOGEE that might be the corporate colour scheme although the only the only colour I can see in that is the red","User Interface suggested that they could design the symbols and colours for the remote. However, the Project Manager reminded the team that they should put their own logo and colour scheme on the remote, which means that they could not design those things by themselves." "Industrial Designer: Would you be able to get rid of the the extra buttons here the the sort of circular section because that seems to be for a video as well So we could dispense with that little bit as well and just get it down to just the numbers and the volume Possibly ? User Interface: What do you mean by the circular section ? Like all of that bottom bit ? Industrial Designer: just this little bit is that I think that is still a video remote part so maybe we could get rid of that as well User Interface: And I do not really think that you need nine numbers I mean how often do you use seven eight and nine ? I think just one to six and then channel up and down should be enough Project Manager: Well th the on the User Interface: Like how often do you hit nine ? Project Manager: Well for for general television purposes obviously you have channels one to five at this point in time and we would have to have some room for future such channels But but Industrial Designer: It is just people are used to seeing that so if we did not have them then they might think it is Project Manager: But well possibly but the the other thing is that with the current expansion of channels in the process of taking place certainly the button up and down but I mean how many channels do we have to actual television channels do we have to prepare for ? I would have thought that it is forever expanding and at the moment we have got although you have onl you have got the five standard you have got the BBC have come up with a further six and there is I do not know exactly how many channels there are on when you take into account Sky and various other various others So I would have thought that we would not you know rather if the time of flicking from one to other but presumably it will take a second because you have to be able to stop it Maybe you could have a fast forward on the on the channels that w and then you could dispense with more otherwise Y you would want you would want to get fairly quickly to the channel that you wanted User Interface: some remotes have kind of favourite options where if you always flick from channel one to channel six if that is a favourite you just like bypass two to five Project Manager: I s I suppose in a sense you could have if you have got a hundred channels then if you had sort of an easy way of getting rather than having to go one to a hundred you could go one to one to ten ten to twenty and then have a second button to get you to the actual channel you want and that would cut down your time User Interface: But I think a lot of like Cable and Sky and stuff that would be tuned to one channel and then you would have another remote for all of those channels Like to get to fifty five and the higher numbers Project Manager: Limit the number of buttons user friendly User Interface: But I suppose nines not really excessive Industrial Designer: I suppose with nine you have got the the like the last one which makes the tenth means you it is like multiples you can put them together so you can make any number User Interface: I suppose it does make a good pattern Industrial Designer: So with that we would kind of bypass any problems with Project Manager: you could get fifty by five and a zero or whatever that that makes sense Industrial Designer: Because that facilitates having all the numbers you could ever need Project Manager: So w so what was the circular thing that you were User Interface: I think that is just for a video so we would not need any of that at all Industrial Designer: So we could get it down to what ? Project Manager: If it is just for TV which is what it is at the moment Industrial Designer: So we get to How many buttons have we got ? We have just got ten eleven twelve th We got fourteen that we need I guess which is not really too many That will be quite easy to make a user guide for a fourteen button remote","The team agreed that there should be 17 buttons on the remote, including number 0 to 9, volume up and down, mute, channel up and down, stand-by and power buttons. Besides the buttons of brightness and contrast should be put on the back of the remote." "Marketing: Right we have done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control And first off we should state that th the remote controls for controlling the TV and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them how d how does a remote control look and feel for them and what improvements would would they like to remote control And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we would prepared and asking them to fill in the answers And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings they were not used very often at all People concentrated on the channel buttons and the volume buttons and the power buttons we also asked them about speech recognition for remote control And young people were quite receptive to this but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older people people were not quite so keen on speech recognition There is a lot more th there is a lot lot more older people who did not know whether they wanted it or not as well we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they could not find it And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions and to find your way around it so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high hightech A design which looks hightech basically and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power and also volume and that sort of thing as as Louisa said we could maybe come up with a menu a sort of a an LCD menu for other functions on the remote control That is worth thinking about and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are going to buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a hightech design That that might be the market that we are we are looking for And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it is lost in a room rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels Because there is a problem with that in that the television makes noise so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so Industrial Designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition And possibly the thing about the about the remote being lost we could have You know with your mobile phone you lose that and you can ring it Maybe we can have some kind of sensor which is kept somewhere where you can some kind of buzzer system between the two So you can press a button which is always kept in one place and then it maybe buzzes to somewhere else wherever the remote actually is Marketing: Uhhuh we would have t that would mean we would have to put two products together as well which which again would probably be a bit expensive but User Interface: There is key rings that you kind of whistle at or clap at I can not remember and then they whistle back or something like that That would probably be really simple Industrial Designer: So I guess it would be something we could like attach to the or like the same technology could be put inside the inside the remote Project Manager: Well if you are trying to avoid having a second product because obviously you could have a second product that gave you the right pitch which would set the remote off to say here I am sort of thing you know without sound recognition But if you I know I was going to say a sharp noise you know a clapping of hand or whatever You would want to try and av just have the one product that if Industrial Designer: if we if we could have it in the actual remote like everything in one one device Project Manager: I do not know talking about vo I mean obviously if you have got voice recognition then you can do it in that way because it will recognise the voice and you can give it a command a set command whatever that happened to be But you have then got the point if if you are not going with voice recognition then Industrial Designer: you could have an option to turn it off Or So that would solve the problems with the TV kind of speaking to the remote and changing its own channels Project Manager: So Any sugges Well any conclusions ? Marketing: would it take quite a while to sort of develop the speech recognition software in the remote control ? Project Manager: Well if it does then we can not because we have got th th three primary requisites from from and email that was sent to me whereby we had The design logo was one which we have already mentioned We have got the remote was only for the television and not for because that would make it too complex and we have to get it market quickly And the third thing was that teletext as far as the management is concerned is becoming dated due to the popularity of the internet So that means that so these are the sort of three extra parameters that have been put on this project So we are being focused effectively directly at a television and it seems to me that the management is wanting us to go down a narrow path and not opening out So anything that is to be added such as voice recognition et cetera has to be very simple and has to be very quick Industrial Designer: Has to be simple enough to Project Manager: because time to market is is critical S Industrial Designer: I suppose if we could get something in which was quite quick and simple that would give us an advantage over the other remotes Project Manager: It would But probably quick and simple is primary rather than added extras Added extras would be nice but the primary consideration is to get the project finished within this short time window which effectively now is sort of four hours So and if and we have got to get to the end d d I think I think first and foremost we have got to get to the end and then get to the end with added extras if possible","According to the research of Marketing, three quarters of the customers thought that their remotes are ugly. People only concentrated on the channel buttons, the volume buttons and the power buttons, and other buttons on the remote were seldom pressed. Many customers found it frustrating when their remotes were lost somewhere else in the room and they couldn't find them. Besides, it was difficult for people to learn all the functions on the remote. Then the team discussed the idea of a speech recognition system for the remote." "Marketing: Right we have done some research into the functional requirements that people want out of their remote control And first off we should state that th the remote controls for controlling the TV and how do people use it ? We asked them sort of which buttons were useful for them how d how does a remote control look and feel for them and what improvements would would they like to remote control And we did that by sort of giving them a questionnaire that we would prepared and asking them to fill in the answers And three quarters of them found that remote controls are ugly and that a sort of even higher proportion would spend more for a sort of s a fancier remote control And that of all the buttons on the remote control the sort of setting buttons for sort of the picture picture and brightness and the audio settings they were not used very often at all People concentrated on the channel buttons and the volume buttons and the power buttons we also asked them about speech recognition for remote control And young people were quite receptive to this but as soon as we got sort of over about into a thirty five to forty age forty five age group and older people people were not quite so keen on speech recognition There is a lot more th there is a lot lot more older people who did not know whether they wanted it or not as well we also asked what frustrated people about remote controls and the number one frustration was that the remote was lost somewhere else in the room and that they could not find it And the second second biggest frustration what that if they got a new remote control it was difficult to learn all the buttons and all the functions and to find your way around it so My personal preferences from the marketing is that we need to come up with some sort of sleek sort of good looking high hightech A design which looks hightech basically and that we should come up with fewer buttons than most of the controls on the market and we should sort of concentrate on the channels and sort of power and also volume and that sort of thing as as Louisa said we could maybe come up with a menu a sort of a an LCD menu for other functions on the remote control That is worth thinking about and maybe we could think about speech recognition as well because sort of young people are perhaps the ones that are going to buy buy our new product if we aim it at sort of you know sort of a hightech design That that might be the market that we are we are looking for And we could maybe think about using speech recogniti recognition as a way to find the remote control if it is lost in a room rather than sort of having it to speech recognition to change the channels Because there is a problem with that in that the television makes noise so it could end up talking to itself and changing its channel and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so","Marketing suggested that the remote should be good looking and high-tech. And they should concentrate on the functions of changing channels and volumes. Besides, they could also think about using speech recognition as a way for people to find the remote control if it's lost in a room." "Marketing: and that is the end of the slide show That is it Cool Project Manager: What was that last wee bit there ? But that was only for young people that preferred it older people did not Marketing: Youn young people pref they s they said that they would be interested in a remote control which offered that possibility and as you go up through the age groups people got less and less interested in sort of a a remote control that you could talk to so Industrial Designer: No what I maybe think is it seems the technology would be quite advanced for that and they might end up costing more than our twelve fifty budget for for the speech recognition",Industrial Designer thought that the technology would be quite advanced and they might end up costing more than 25 budgets for speech recognition. "Project Manager: Kay Alright Now we have Courtney with the functional requirements Marketing: Yes so we tested a hundred subjects in our lab and we just we watched them and we also made them fill out a questionnaire and we found that the users are not typically happy with current remote controls Seventy five percent think they are ugly Eighty percent want they have are willing to spend more which is good news for us if we make it look fancier and basically w we just need something that really I mean there is some other points up there but they it needs to be snazzy and it but yet simple So that is really what we need to do And we need we need it to be simple yet it needs to be hightech looking So User Interface: And that meaning what ? Marketing: Like They like I guess use the buttons a lot I do not know It is from my research My team was not very clear User Interface: Only use ten percent of the buttons Project Manager: What do you mean by the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user like they have to press the buttons Marketing: That is I I think it is like the engineering versus user whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex and users do not really need all of the buttons that are contained on there because they only use ten percent of the buttons really Industrial Designer: We only use ten per cent of our brains Marketing: It is a necessary evil Project Manager: Ready for the next slide ? Marketing: Mmhmm And so people say that they typically lose it as you yourself know because you probably lose your remote control all the time much like any small appliance like a cellphone and they we need something simple because most people well thirty four percent say that it is just too much time to learn how to use a new one and we do not want to go we do not want to vary too far from the normal standard remote but I mean they do need to be able to identify it and RSI I am not very sure what that is Project Manager: It is It is very important Marketing: Yes it is important for the remote control world User Interface: Wait is that like your ergonomics like your hand movements or something ? Industrial Designer: Do we really need t to provide more information on what RSI is ? Marketing: that is what my web site said I Project Manager: I think that is a pretty good guess though User Interface: It is like if you are holding it Marketing: I think we are supposed to know it as remote control experts But also s so the channel the volume and the power buttons are the most important on our company website you can find like the specific statistics concerning to how much each button is used but those are the definitely the top ones Yes And so personally I think that we need a modern eyecatching design but it it really needs to be simple So saying from y your slide your presentation the engineering versus the userspecified remotes I think that we should go with something that is more userfriendly Where the engineering ones the boxes tend to make it look more complicated than it really is the functionality of the product really needs to be considered as to like what type of buttons do we really need on it And it needs to be open to a wide range of consumers so even though we need a small number of buttons we also need to take in like are most people going to be using it for a DVD player a TiVo what what exactly are we using it for as well as the age range So we need a hip but not a corny marketing scheme for promoting our product And also we found our team found that speech recognition is it is like an upandcoming thing they really consumers are really interested in it and since our findings found that people are willing to pay more money for a remote for it to be more highclass we could consider it Project Manager: And so just to just to clarify by speech recognition you mean they would say channel five and the thing would go to channel five ? User Interface: to just say where are you and thing beeps you know Project Manager: Oh that would be lovely Marketing: I guess we can interpret it like we can just try out different types of speech recognition within our remote programme Project Manager: Did not they did not our rival companies manufacture a remote that you would press the button on the TV and it would the remote would beep so if you have lost it User Interface: It is kind of like what the remote phone used to do Project Manager: Mm Oh that is true User Interface: You know like go to the base Project Manager: We could definitely include that if we wanted to If it is within our price Are we ready for our last presentation Amber ?","Marketing first shared the results of their lab tests. It was found that users preferred a fancier but yet simpler remote, and as a result, their product should be high-tech looking but also user-friendly. Since the research found that most users would only use ten percent of the buttons, they decided to only keep the most necessary ones on their remote. Users also claimed that remotes tend to be lost easily. Finally, since speech recognition was popular among users, the remote should have this function as well." "Marketing: Like They like I guess use the buttons a lot I do not know It is from my research My team was not very clear User Interface: Only use ten percent of the buttons Project Manager: What do you mean by the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user like they have to press the buttons Marketing: That is I I think it is like the engineering versus user whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex and users do not really need all of the buttons that are contained on there because they only use ten percent of the buttons really Industrial Designer: We only use ten per cent of our brains Marketing: It is a necessary evil","According to the lab tests, users only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote. It was shown that users didn't really need all the buttons provided by current remotes, and it would be more user-friendly if their new remote could lose the unnecessary ones. The most frequently used buttons were those for the channel, the volume and the power on/off." Marketing: Mmhmm And so people say that they typically lose it as you yourself know because you probably lose your remote control all the time much like any small appliance like a cellphone and they we need something simple because most people well thirty four percent say that it is just too much time to learn how to use a new one and we do not want to go we do not want to vary too far from the normal standard remote,"One thing they could do was to design a lost-and-found function to accommodate the user's need to retrieve the remote when it was lost. Another way was to give it a modern eye-catching design that could distinguish the new remote from current standard ones. Also, given that speech recognition was an up-and-coming thing among their target group, they could include this function in the remote, allowing users to control their devices by simply speaking to it." "Project Manager: let us talk about all of our We will come to decision later about all the components that we need to include let us wrap up this one and I am going to go back to my PowerPoint because we need to discuss the new project requirements which you might have already seen flashed up on the screen a bit earlier Wait come back Alright Sorry let us go through this Alright Here we go New product requirements First it is only going to be a TV remote We are trying not to overcomplicate things So no DVD no TiVo no stereo It is not going to be multifunctional Hey And we th need to promote our company more so we need to somehow include our colour and our company slogan on the remote We are trying to get our name out there in the world And you know what teletext is ? in States we do not have it but it is like they just have this channel where just has news and weather kind of sports it is very bland looking it is just text on the screen User Interface: it is like black black and white kind of Project Manager: just black with just text Marketing: Like running along the bottom ? Industrial Designer: You can also get the kind of the TV guide so User Interface: It will give you the sports Marketing: Wait is it like the Weather Channel where it is got like the ticker running on the bottom or something ? Project Manager: it is the whole screen Industrial Designer: It is the entire screen is just running information at random User Interface: You can pick sports you can pick the news you entertainment you know it is like Marketing: So it is like a separate channel from like what you are watching ? Project Manager: Right But it is becoming outdated now because of the Internet Nobody needs to go to the teletext channel to check the news and we have twenty four hour news channels now too so Those are our new product requirements Alright Mmhmm Industrial Designer: So do we have to include the company colour within that ? Project Manager: Yes It is part of the logo What we are going to do right now is come to some decisions definitive that we can all agree on about the target group and the functions and just definite things that we need to do and then we will close up the meeting So Alright Whatever So our target group is You mentioned older people ? Would it just be universal for everyone you think ? Because I think even if something has large buttons as long as they are not childishly large like even technically User Interface: It is going to make it nicer Project Manager: nontechnically challenged people are going to use it I mean they want something userfriendly so Industrial Designer: Mm well even if we kept the regular standard size of remote if we reduced the buttons down to the ones that people are saying that they use the most often and a couple extra because they are saying they only use ten per cent of them then we should be able to accommodate fairly decent sized buttons Project Manager: so we want for our target group would we say I mean young and old all age ranges all not kids obviously right ? Or kids ? Marketing: No kids need to know how to use a remote I would think Industrial Designer: Most of them will intuitively pick it up though Marketing: They got to change between Disney Channel Cartoon Network Project Manager: so we are going to go anywhere from kids to adult in the age range Marketing: I think we need it all Project Manager: what about technic technical specifications like how how technically literate are these people who are going to be using our remote ? Marketing: I would say we should say dumber than the average person User Interface: We should go for the lowest denominator Project Manager: Right So so they need no technical experience to operate Industrial Designer: how bout little to no because there is no way that you are going to be able to make it no Project Manager: And we also need to determine the specific functions of this just to get it all out on paper So we said it needs to send messages to the TV needs to change the channel turn on and off just basic simple stuff like this So if you have something just say it and we will add it to my meeting minutes User Interface: Well it is channel onoff button volume mute Marketing: And channel Those are the most important ones Project Manager: Right And we want to keep I will make a note here that we want to keep the number of buttons down Correct because people only use ten percent Kay Hey what else ? Industrial Designer: Do we want this thing to be able to be found easily ? Project Manager: I think so What do you A finding kind of device or Marketing: I need we we need a like homing device Industrial Designer: like if this is going to get lost underneath the coach how are we going to accommodate the quick ability to find it ? Marketing: Because people really are looking for a remote that is more hightech Industrial Designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger just like a phone like you get a portable phone and it is got a charger and if you d leave your phone somewhere you push the button to find it and it finds th the phone beeps for you User Interface: But you got a base Marketing: Do you think peoplell really go for that though ? Industrial Designer: It is useful for the remote phone Project Manager: Would that add to our costs at all I wonder ? Marketing: I would think so because you would have to develop a base User Interface: Well if you have the base you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery Industrial Designer: Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually Project Manager: I I think we can make a decision about that later we will still put that as a point that we need to discuss So that would include battery source Power source rather Is it going to have a charger or is it going to be run strictly off batteries ? And we also need to deal with the issue you mentioned of speech recognition if we want that User Interface: If we have the speech recognition then we can start aiming at a like another kind of more handicapped disabled demo demographic Marketing: Well th there is the people who desire speech recognition there is the different demog demographics have different desires I do not know if you guys ge Project Manager: You could we could hook it up Marketing: It would not copy onto the the thing because it is black but all the different age groups have different desires for speech recognition So basically older people do not really care It is really the people twenty five to thirty five I feel those are the people that really watch a lot of TV though They are the ones that get addicted to soap operas and Project Manager: And if and if we introduced it when they are this age they are going to probably always buy a remote that has Marketing: just sitcoms and stuff Right User Interface: Well then then do you put the voice recognition do you put the r like receiver on the actual television in the base or in the actual remote because then you have already got remote in your hand why you just going to speak to the remote whereas if you just speak in general and you do not have to have the remote in your hand and like talk at it Project Manager: and the speech recognition could be part of the lost and found device too If we said find remote locate remote or something A certain phrase then it could beep I do not know Just throwing it out there anything else we want to discuss ? User Interface: Well do we want to include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ? Marketing: Wait on the remote itself ? User Interface: like you have one two three four five six seven eight nine zero Marketing: Well we definitely need those Project Manager: how would you leave those out ? User Interface: Well I do not know I mean if you can like well Project Manager: Unless you could say the channel User Interface: I do not know if there is just a way of leaving them out ? Industrial Designer: I think people would find that too foreign Project Manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need you know like a hundred button too I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty So I could not whenever I got cable I had to get a new TV Industrial Designer: It is when we get satellite Project Manager: Mm get your own remote or digital cable Kay I guess we are going to discuss the project financing later making sure that we can fit all of the stuff that we want to on our budget Industrial Designer: because I do not have any material pricing information available to me at the moment so Project Manager: Kay And do not forget we need to include the colour of our company and the logo User Interface: The colour being yellow ? Project Manager: I am guessing And the RR Marketing: I feel like a ye I feel like a yellow one would be too garish Project Manager: We could just have the logo in yellow User Interface: Can not make it entirely Project Manager: or maybe a yellow light for the keys Marketing: Or put like stripes oh yellow lights Industrial Designer: yellow could be and it could does not have to be huge User Interface: Well if you have like a Hang on If you have this sort of strip kind of down at the bottom the base of it just like yellow with the RR Project Manager: Right So we have simplified we do not need all those play fastforward rewind So we have pretty much pared it down to onoff volume mute channel up and down the numbers can we go back to I am going to look really quickly back at those examples and see if there is anything Which one is yours technical functions or functional requirement ? Marketing: audi audio settings and screen settings we need those like audio settings mono stereo pitch screen settings like brightness colour or do we just want that accessed accessed from the television itself ? Project Manager: The TV I think that that is fine just for the TV I mean how often does the average user need to do that kind of stuff ? User Interface: Well the other option is sort of like down at the bottom like farther away you just have this sort of box inset where it is like the buttons that you do not use as much but occasionally you will use and so it is like Marketing: because we need to we definitely need to have buttons for like subtitles and things like that It is because the foreign film market is expanding and stuff and like on television like I know f k living in Los Angeles it is tons of Spanish network television if it has English subtitles it is definitely helpful Project Manager: Could not we do that all through one button something a menu button that pops up with a menu on the TV that says you know audio video whatever language User Interface: I do not well I do not know Marketing: So we need up down and sidetoside buttons User Interface: Well that could be No you could just double up with like the channel or the volume buttons Channel is just up and down Project Manager: Something that looks mayb you know Marketing: Such as the one the one over there on the left the engineering centred one Project Manager: Y right right right right User Interface: So we just have it like add a menu button then for the various things needed including v voice recognition if we have any like settings for voice recognition now Marketing: Ooh I just got an idea for a design Project Manager: good Anybody have anything else they would like to bring up in this meeting ? Industrial Designer: I had something but I forgot","Project Manager first announced that their product was only going to be a TV remote instead of a multifunctional one, and that the yellow colour and the slogan of their company should be included in their design. Their target group should be people of all ages with little to no technical literacy. The specific functions of their remote should include sending messages to the TV, lost-and-found assistance, and speech recognition. A menu button could be designed to cover all various additional functions." "Industrial Designer: What if we gave it a charger ? And on the charger just like a phone like you get a portable phone and it is got a charger and if you d leave your phone somewhere you push the button to find it and it finds th the phone beeps for you User Interface: But you got a base Marketing: Do you think peoplell really go for that though ? Industrial Designer: It is useful for the remote phone Project Manager: Would that add to our costs at all I wonder ? Marketing: I would think so because you would have to develop a base User Interface: Well if you have the base you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery Industrial Designer: Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually","Industrial Designer suggested that the remote could be attached to a charger base, and the lost remote would beep if a button on the base was pushed. This might add to their costs, and would require a rechargeable battery for the remote. Project Manager later proposed that the speech recognition could be part of the lost-and-found device. This would allow the remote to beep when hearing a certain phrase." "User Interface: Well do we want to include the numbers like zero through nine ? Can we conceive of leaving them out ? Marketing: Wait on the remote itself ? User Interface: like you have one two three four five six seven eight nine zero Marketing: Well we definitely need those Project Manager: how would you leave those out ? User Interface: Well I do not know I mean if you can like well Project Manager: Unless you could say the channel User Interface: I do not know if there is just a way of leaving them out ? Industrial Designer: I think people would find that too foreign Project Manager: And also remember that in this day in age we need you know like a hundred button too I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty So I could not whenever I got cable I had to get a new TV Industrial Designer: It is when we get satellite Project Manager: Mm get your own remote or digital cable","User Interface first asked whether they could possibly leave out the number buttons, but this proposal was turned down by others. They simplified the buttons to on-off, volume, mute, channel up/down, and the numbers 0–9. For more advanced functions, Project Manager suggested an additional one-for-all menu button that would allow the user to pull up various options on the TV screen. The channel and volume buttons could be used for navigating the menu page." "Project Manager: the selling price for the remote will be twenty five Euro and the production cost may not be more than twenty and a half Euro So from my point of view I do not think it is going to be very very high tech high definition ultra modern kind of remote for twelve fift twelve and a half Euro the profit we must make with the new remote is fifty million Euro So that is a lot We have to sell a lot of User Interface: how much is it ? Hundred million remotes or something ? Project Manager: I think w when the selling price is twenty five you got two million two million remotes Industrial Designer: Twenty million Two million oh two million Project Manager: But our marketing range is market range is international So we have virtually the whole world we can sell we can sell our r remotes to At least that countries which have a television","The remote control would be priced at 25 Euros, produced at the cost of 12.5 Euros. Since the company has international market range, at least 2 million units would have to be sold to meet the company's profit goals of 50 million Euros." "Project Manager: So now it is time for us to going to discuss a little things You can think about experience with a remote control yourself at home What you think might be a useful new feature What what can distinguish our new trendy remote control from all the others so let us let us discuss a little I am going to join you at the table Well what what is the most important thing at a remote control ? User Interface: well I think the most important thing of a remote control is that you can switch channels And my opinion is you should keep it as basic as possible Project Manager: So not a not a remote control who which can can be used for television and a DVD and radio and Or just only Marketing: I think so but I have some points Can I show them on the on the big screen ? Maybe ? Project Manager: If you have them on I can Oh in case you want it This is a dead kind of fly Between the the the the the User Interface: Is it possible to open pen drawings in this on this screen ? Project Manager: No no no Only All the drawings go there at the left User Interface: but which The ones we made on the Project Manager: Oh that pen drawings no I think when it is in Word and you have saved it in the Shared Documents folder you can show it there Marketing: I have some points from marketing point of view just the standard thing li things like intuitive small fairly cheap it is pretty cheap twenty five Euros brand independent I think it does not have to matter which brand your TV or other thing is I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or Project Manager: So it be a multipurpose very technically high Marketing: From my point of view Project Manager: remote ? it must be really innovative technicalwise ? Marketing: it has to be our company is very good in making new innovative things Project Manager: So I I agree with you Marketing: So i i i i Project Manager: So we must focus on things who are really really add something to to Marketing: Look you got some cheap remote controls there They just you got a dozen of them But when you enter a new market with a remote control and want to gain market share you have to do something special I think Project Manager: But we have to keep an eye that it is at the beginning of such a project it is it is it is very cool to talk about well this would be cool that would be cool but we must not lose sight of the the user friendly Marketing: But it is But but this is just from marketing aspect","User Interface believed the most important function is to switch channels, and so it would be better to keep the remote control as basic as possible. Marketing proposed that the remote control had to be multi-purpose to be competitive among current products. Project Manager agreed to do something special on the product, but PM also pointed out being user-friendly was also of importance." "Marketing: I have some points from marketing point of view just the standard thing li things like intuitive small fairly cheap it is pretty cheap twenty five Euros brand independent I think it does not have to matter which brand your TV or other thing is I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or Project Manager: So it be a multipurpose very technically high Marketing: From my point of view Project Manager: remote ? it must be really innovative technicalwise ? Marketing: it has to be our company is very good in making new innovative things Project Manager: So I I agree with you Marketing: So i i i i Project Manager: So we must focus on things who are really really add something to to Marketing: Look you got some cheap remote controls there They just you got a dozen of them But when you enter a new market with a remote control and want to gain market share you have to do something special I think Project Manager: But we have to keep an eye that it is at the beginning of such a project it is it is it is very cool to talk about well this would be cool that would be cool but we must not lose sight of the the user friendly Marketing: But it is But but this is just from marketing aspect I do not know anything about user interface or design","Marketing put forward innovative ideas including using radio waves and bluetooth. In the proposal, some potential problems about high cost and being limited to marketing aspects had also been mentioned by Marketing. Based on this, PM agreed that those ideas could help the product to be special and competitive, but PM also pinpointed that such a product required strong support of high technology. Besides, being user-friendly should not be ignored." Marketing: I will wrap it up quickly I personally think it has to be multipurpose most of the remote c remote controls are just for one purpose And by making it multipurpose it has a new feature adds a new feature to the market and distinguish from from current products maybe some other technology than infrared I rather find it very annoying like when someone is standing in front of the TV then you can not switch it think about sending it over radio waves or bluetooth That might be a little bit expensive And something like an LCD screen like I said here Maybe it is easy It is nice as an added feature feature that when you are on a certain channel you can see on the LCD screen what programmes are coming up or,"Marketing recommended developing a multi-purpose remote control because most of the remote controls on the market were made just for one purpose. Besides, Marketing suggested to use some other technology, such as radio waves and bluetooth, than infrared because it could be easily affected by obstacles. Thirdly, a nice added feature was to inform users of the coming programmes. Marketing conceived a high-tech remote control to be competitive among other products." "Project Manager: next meeting will start in thirty minutes So you will have individual actions where I presume will be some feedback via the m the mail the the the Industrial Designer has to look at the working design the User Interface Designer has to look at the technical functions So that is the thing we discussed User Interface: we must first agree on what we are going to m going to make Do we Are we going to use it it for multiple systems ? Or We should have some agreement on that before we Marketing: Mm I I do not think we have to be we have to agree on that Industrial Designer: I figure we could get back to it on the next meeting actually Marketing: I think th that is a pha That is a phase further Ju just make some mockups some some general ideas And and then we can plan We can plan further I think Project Manager: But maybe because you are working on the user requirements you are working on the technical functions we must have a little or kind of How do you call it ? User Interface: Consensus on the what we are going to do Project Manager: a little plan on on what we are going to do So you do not come up with the user requirements who do not fit the the the the technical functions at all Some basic things we co we want to going to do I think that is well Will come in handy Marketing: I do not know You decide You are the Project Manager User Interface: if the technical functions have to be designed I I have got to know for what kind of machines they will be Or do we use it a text screen ? Or will it be with with bluetooth or Project Manager: Well th that is that is really a step further But if you say is it one way or multipurpose that is a Marketing: tha that is a same step further Industrial Designer: Then looking at individual components so that is actually a f step further Marketing: Like we all have a list of things that has to b that have to be in it or how it has to be like And then in the next meeting we decide Industrial Designer: we can take it from there Marketing: w what it is going to be Industrial Designer: I agree we can take it from there Marketing: A And then you s then you can delete the o the obsolete details Project Manager: each individually i individually must think on what is at his point of view is the most important And then we are going to fit all the pieces together the next meeting I must finish off now so it is over You will receive specific specific instructions by your personal coach And I see you in thirty minutes Thank you","Project Manager gave each team member different tasks. Project Manager asked Industrial Designer to look at the working design, User Interface to work on the technical functions and Marketing to be responsible for user requirements. User Interface recommended to achieve some agreement on whether to use the new remote control for multiple systems, and User Interface also asked whether to use a text screen or bluetooth. Besides, Project Manager also demanded that everyone in the group should individually ponder the most important thing in this project from their own perspective." "PhD F: I was going to try to get out of here like in half an hour cuz I really appreciate people coming and the main thing that I was going to ask people to help with today is pause to give input on what kinds of database format we should pause use in starting to link up things like word transcripts and annotations of word transcripts so anything that transcribers or discourse coders or whatever put in the signal with time marks for like words and phone boundaries and all the stuff we get out of the forced alignments and the recognizer So we have this I think a starting point is clearly the the channelized pause output of Dave Gelbart s program which Don brought a copy of Grad C: I m I m familiar with that I mean we I sort of already have developed an XML format for this sort of stuff PhD D: Can I see it ? Grad C: And so the only question is it the sort of thing that you want to use or not ? Have you looked at that ? I mean I had a web page up PhD F: I actually mostly need to be able to link up or I it s it s a question both of what the representation is and Grad C: You mean this I guess I am going to be standing up and drawing on the board PhD F: OK So you should definitely Grad C: so so it definitely had that as a concept So tha it has a single time line and then you can have lots of different sections each of which have I Ds attached to it and then you can refer from other sections to those I Ds if you want to So that so that you start with with a time line tag `` Time line `` And then you have a bunch of times I do not e I do not remember exactly what my notation was PhD A: Oh I remember seeing an example of this Grad C: `` T equals one point three two `` And then I I also had optional things like accuracy and then `` ID equals T one one seven `` And then nonvocalsound I also wanted to to be i to be able to not specify specifically what the time was and just have a stamp so these are arbitrary assigned by a program not not by a user So you have a whole bunch of those And then somewhere la further down you might have something like an utterance tag which has `` start equals T seventeen end equals T eighteen `` So what that s saying is we know it starts at this particular time We do not know when it ends Right ? But it ends at this T eighteen which may be somewhere else We say there s another utterance We do not know what the t time actually is but we know that it s the same time as this end time You know thirty eight whatever you want PhD A: So you are essentially defining a lattice Grad C: And then and then these also have I Ds Right ? So you could you could have some sort of other other tag later in the file that would be something like oh I do not know comment nonvocalsound `` noise type equals nonvocalsound door slam `` You know ? And then nonvocalsound you could either say `` time equals a particular time mark `` or you could do other sorts of references So or or you might have a prosody `` Prosody `` right ? D ? T ? D ? T ? T ? PhD F: It s an O instead of an I but the D is good Grad C: You like the D ? That s a good D you know so you could have some sort of type here and then you could have the utterance that it s referring to could be YOU seventeen or something like that PhD F: OK So I mean that seems that seems g great for all of the encoding of things with time and I I guess my question is more what d what do you do with say a forced alignment ? I mean you ve got all these phone labels and what do you do if you just conceptually if you get transcriptions where the words are staying but the time boundaries are changing cuz you ve got a new recognition output or s sort of what s the sequence of going from the waveforms that stay the same the transcripts that may or may not change and then the utterance which where the time boundaries that may or may not change ? PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine PhD F: So you could have some file that configures how much information you want in your in your XML or something Grad C: Right I mean you would y I I am imagining you would have multiple versions of this depending on the information that you want PhD F: cuz th it does get very bush with Right Grad C: I m just what I m wondering is whether I think for word level this would be OK For word level it s alright For lower than word level you are talking about so much data that I just I do not know I do not know if that","C developed an XML format that links together utterances based on time tags, essentially creating a lattice. The XML format would be divided into many sections, each with its own ID and timeline tag. The XML format could be modified to deal with smaller linguistic units since that would only entail changing the timestamps. Despite being easy to use, the format was not efficient for smaller linguistic units, like phones. It would work for word units, at best." "PhD F: OK So I mean that seems that seems g great for all of the encoding of things with time and I I guess my question is more what d what do you do with say a forced alignment ? I mean you ve got all these phone labels and what do you do if you just conceptually if you get transcriptions where the words are staying but the time boundaries are changing cuz you ve got a new recognition output or s sort of what s the sequence of going from the waveforms that stay the same the transcripts that may or may not change and then the utterance which where the time boundaries that may or may not change ? PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine PhD F: So you could have some file that configures how much information you want in your in your XML or something Grad C: Right I mean you would y I I am imagining you would have multiple versions of this depending on the information that you want PhD F: cuz th it does get very bush with Right Grad C: I m just what I m wondering is whether I think for word level this would be OK For word level it s alright","F was concerned about how the time labels would adjust to smaller phonetic units. F inquired if the time boundaries could be changed by propagating new information throughout the XML. F thought that they could configure different XML files to deal with different units, but it would lead to large file sizes." "PhD A: Oh that s That s actually very nicely handled here because you could you could all you would have to change is the time stamps in the time line without without changing the I Ds PhD F: And you would be able to propagate all of the the information ? Grad C: Right That s the who that s why you do that extra level of indirection So that you can just change the time line PhD A: Except the time line is going to be huge If you say suppose you have a phone level alignment PhD F: especially at the phone level PhD A: You would have you would have PhD F: The we we have phone level backtraces Grad C: this I do not think I would do this for phone level I think for phone level you want to use some sort of binary representation because it will be too dense otherwise PhD F: OK So if you were doing that and you had this sort of companion thing that gets called up for phone level what would that look like ? Grad C: I would use just an existing an existing way of doing it PhD A: Mmm But but why not use it for phone level ? It s just a matter of it s just a matter of it being bigger But if you have you know barring memory limitations or I w I mean this is still the m Grad C: It s parsing limitations I do not want to have this text file that you have to read in the whole thing to do something very simple for PhD A: Oh no You would use it only pause for pause purposes where you actually want the phone level information I would imagine","A had seen an example of this kind of XML format before. A thought that the time boundaries were nicely handled but believed that smaller linguistic units would drain too much memory. It was essentially like a lattice, in his opinion. Though, A did not seem too concerned with dealing with smaller linguistic units since the problem would not be encountered frequently." "Grad C: I guess I m just a little hesitant to try to go whole hog on sort of the the whole framework that that NIST is talking about with ATLAS and a database and all that sort of stuff cuz it s a big learning curve just to get going Whereas if we just do a flat file format sure it may not be as efficient but everyone can program in Perl and and use it PhD A: I I m still not convinced that you can do much at all on the text on the flat file that that you know the text representation e Because the text representation is going to be not reflecting the structure of of your words and annotations It s just it s Grad C: Well if it s not representing it then how do you recover it ? Of course it s representing it PhD A: No You you have to what you have to do is you have to basically Grad C: That s the whole point PhD A: Y You can use Perl to read it in and construct a internal representation that is essentially a lattice But the and then Grad C: Well that was a different point Right ? So what I was saying is that PhD A: But that s what you will have to do Bec be Grad C: For Perl if you want to just do Perl If you wanted to use the structured XML query language that s a different thing And it s a set of tools that let you specify given the D DDT DTD of the document what sorts of structural searches you want to do So you want to say that you know you are looking for a tag within a tag within a particular tag that has this particular text in it and refers to a particular value And so the point is not that an end user who is looking for a query like you specified would not program it in this language What you would do is someone would build a tool that used that as a library So that they so that you would not have to construct the internal representations yourself PhD F: Is a See I think the kinds of questions at least in the next to the end of this year are there may be a lot of different ones but they will all have a similar nature They will be looking at either a word level prosodic an a value like a continuous value like the slope of something But you know we will do something where we some kind of data reduction where the prosodic features are sort o either at the word level or at the segment level or or something like that They are not going to be at the phone level and they are no not going to be at the frame level when we get done with sort of giving them simpler shapes and things And so the main thing is just being able Well I guess the two goals one that Chuck mentioned is starting out with something that we do not have to start over that we do not have to throw away if other people want to extend it for other kinds of questions and being able to at least get enough information out on where we condition the location of features on information that s in the kind of file that you pause put up there And that would that would do it Grad C: I think that there are quick and dirty solutions and then there are long term big infrastructure solutions And so we want to try to pick something that let us us do a little bit of both PhD F: In the between right And especially that the representation does not have to be thrown away even if your tools change Grad C: And so it seems to me that I mean I have to look at it again to see whether it can really do what we want but if we use the ATLAS external file representation it seems like it s rich enough that you could do quick tools just as I said in Perl and then later on if we choose to go up the learning curve we can use the whole ATLAS inter infrastructure PhD F: I mean that sounds good to me Grad C: which has all that built in PhD F: I I do not So if if you would l look at that and let us know what you think I mean I think we are sort of guinea pigs cuz I I want to get the prosody work done but I do not want to waste time you know getting the Grad C: Well I would not wait for the formats because anything you pick we will be able to translate to another form PhD A: Well Ma well maybe you should actually look at it yourself too to get a sense of what it is you will you will be dealing with because you know Adam might have one opinion but you might have another so I think the more eyes look at this the better PhD F: Especially if there s e you know if someone can help with at least the the setup of the right the right representation then i you know I hope it will not We do not actually need the whole full blown thing to be ready so so maybe if you guys can look at it and sort of see what I think we are we are we are actually just wrapping up but sorry it s a short meeting but Well I do not know Is there anything else like I mean that helps me a lot Grad C: Well I think the other thing we might want to look at is alternatives to P file I mean th the reason I like P file is I m already familiar with it we have expertise here and so if we pick something else there s the learning curve problem But I mean it is just something we developed at ICSI PhD A: Is there an is there an IP API ? Grad C: There s an API for it And PhD A: There used to be a problem that they get too large Grad C: a bunch of libraries P file utilities PhD A: and so pause basically the the filesystem would not Grad C: Well that s going to be a problem no matter what You have the two gigabyte limit on the filesystem size And we definitely hit that with Broadcast News PhD A: Maybe you could extend the API to support like splitting up you know conceptually one file into smaller files on disk so that you can essentially you know have arbitrarily long f Grad C: Yep Most of the tools can handle that So that we did not do it at the API level We did it at the t tool level That that most many of them can s you can specify several P files and they will just be done sequentially PhD F: So I guess if if you and Don can if you can show him the P file stuff and see So this would be like for the F zero Grad C: I mean if you do `` man P file `` or `` apropos P file `` you will see a lot Grad B: I ve used the P file I think I ve looked at it at least briefly I think when we were doing s something PhD A: What does the P stand for anyway ? Grad C: I did not de I did not develop it You know it was I think it was Dave Johnson So it s all part of the Quicknet library It has all the utilities for it PhD A: No P files were around way before Quicknet P files were were around when w with RAP PhD F: It s like the history of ICSI PhD A: You worked with P files I worked with P files PhD D: I do not remember what the `` P `` is though Grad C: But there are ni they are The pause Quicknet library has a bunch of things in it to handle P files so it works pretty well PhD F: And that is not really I guess as important as the the main I do not know what you call it the the main sort of word level PhD D: Probably stands for `` Phil `` Phil Kohn Grad C: It s a Phil file ? PhD F: Huh OK Well that s really useful I mean this is exactly the kind of thing that I wanted to settle so Grad C: I ve been meaning to look at the ATLAS stuff again anyway PhD F: I guess it s also sort of a political deci I mean if if you feel like that s a community that would be good to tie into anyway then it s sounds like it s worth doing Grad C: I think it it w PhD A: j I think there s Grad C: And w as I said I what I did with this stuff I based it on theirs It s just they had not actually come up with an external format yet So now that they have come up with a format it does not it seems pretty reasonable to use it But let me look at it again PhD F: Cuz we actually can start Grad C: There s one level there s one more level of indirection and I m just blanking on exactly how it works I got to look at it again PhD F: I mean we can start with I guess this input from Dave s which you had printed out the channelized input Cuz he has all of the channels you know with the channels in the tag and stuff like that So that would be i directly Grad C: Yep Easy easy to map","Since the team is familiar with Perl and a flat file format is easier, it was suggested that the cost of learning a new framework, like ATLAS, might be too high. It was suggested that ATLAS be used for the external file representation initially, and if it seems suitable, then it should be adopted in its entirety. P files were also discussed but the problem with them was that they could still get pretty big." "Grad C: I guess I m just a little hesitant to try to go whole hog on sort of the the whole framework that that NIST is talking about with ATLAS and a database and all that sort of stuff cuz it s a big learning curve just to get going Whereas if we just do a flat file format sure it may not be as efficient but everyone can program in Perl and and use it PhD A: I I m still not convinced that you can do much at all on the text on the flat file that that you know the text representation e Because the text representation is going to be not reflecting the structure of of your words and annotations It s just it s Grad C: Well if it s not representing it then how do you recover it ? Of course it s representing it","C thought that other options have a big learning curve, which should be taken into account, and that a flat format works well. A flat file format may not be fast, but everyone can handle it. C believed that quick and dirty solutions should be balanced with long-term infrastructural solutions. For instance, Perl can be paired with external representations of ATLAS files to create a working system. C also suggested that alternatives to P files might be interesting too, though the disadvantage would, once again, be the learning curve." "Grad C: For Perl if you want to just do Perl If you wanted to use the structured XML query language that s a different thing And it s a set of tools that let you specify given the D DDT DTD of the document what sorts of structural searches you want to do So you want to say that you know you are looking for a tag within a tag within a particular tag that has this particular text in it and refers to a particular value And so the point is not that an end user who is looking for a query like you specified would not program it in this language What you would do is someone would build a tool that used that as a library So that they so that you would not have to construct the internal representations yourself PhD F: Is a See I think the kinds of questions at least in the next to the end of this year are there may be a lot of different ones but they will all have a similar nature They will be looking at either a word level prosodic an a value like a continuous value like the slope of something But you know we will do something where we some kind of data reduction where the prosodic features are sort o either at the word level or at the segment level or or something like that They are not going to be at the phone level and they are no not going to be at the frame level when we get done with sort of giving them simpler shapes and things And so the main thing is just being able Well I guess the two goals one that Chuck mentioned is starting out with something that we do not have to start over that we do not have to throw away if other people want to extend it for other kinds of questions and being able to at least get enough information out on where we condition the location of features on information that s in the kind of file that you pause put up there And that would that would do it Grad C: I think that there are quick and dirty solutions and then there are long term big infrastructure solutions And so we want to try to pick something that let us us do a little bit of both PhD F: In the between right And especially that the representation does not have to be thrown away",F wanted to ensure that prosodic features could be dealt with at the level of small linguistic units. F proposed that they be attached to the word or segment level with the option of extracting smaller units. This would allow the team to keep what they have without starting over. "User Interface: How do you wear this thing ? Not too many cables and stuff Project Manager: Is recorded ? ? so welcome everyone So we are here for the kickoff meeting of the process of designing a new remote control So I will first start with a warm welcome opening stuff then we will see what will be our product and what will be the different step we will have to design it And then we will discuss if we have few ideas and we will end by dispatching the different task you will be you will have to fulfil to complete this process So User Interface: Just one thing you said twentyfive minutes but I have something else to do so got to have another meeting soon so maybe you could hurry up a bit It is true I have another meeting so if you could Project Manager: You have another meeting soon ? So you have to be quick So the the goal is to have a remote control so to have an advantage over our competitors we have to be original we have to be trendy and we have to also try to be userfriendly So the design step will be divided in three main points First it will be the functional design Third is the conceptual design and then is the desired design So the functional design is to identify the main user needs the technical function the remote control should fulfil And then we will move to f conceptual design where we will specify the different component involved what kind of user interf interface we want and what are the different trend in user interface and stuff like that","Mutual greeting heralded the beginning of the meeting and the goal of the new remote control project was introduced by Project Manager to the conferees as to win over competitive products by being original, trendy and user-friendly. Then Project Manager continued with the introduction of the design process, which was divided into three main parts—functional design, conceptual design and desired design that respectively focused on the user-related technical functions, desirable user interface and different trends involved, and specific implementation and choice-detailing process of conceptual design." "Project Manager: Do you have any idea of which animal you want to show us ? User Interface: Can I give you the no ? But I do not have to say anything When I am drawing the orangutan Project Manager: If you want to react about this wonderful drawing I will let you comment User Interface: It is an abstract drawing of an orangutan Project Manager: it is an abstract drawing I think it is nice and original Industrial Designer: You should write y the name I think User Interface: I do not have a red colour Usually orangutans have red hair so this is a very important but I do not have red pen so Project Manager: You want to draw something Christine ? Marketing: sorry You have to imagine a little bit Project Manager: Of course your animal is recorded so it is not lost User Interface: Wha what is this strange beast ? Is it a monster ? Marketing: Do you know ? It is a cat User Interface: It is a cat ? I thought these things did not exist Does have a name ? Project Manager: Olivier do you want to Industrial Designer: And you I think I am too short for the cables Project Manager: I go but next time you will do something I am sure I am a bit short on cable So what could I draw ? Maybe I can draw like a very simplified cow I do not know if it looks like a cow User Interface: He looks like a bong Project Manager: I do not know it it looks more like a donkey in fact I would say User Interface: I I think we will be finished this Project Manager: so I hope that it helps you in the process of designing a remote control",Project Manager recommended a drawing activity of conferees’ favourite animals with the aim of inspiring and contributing to the design process of the remote control. "User Interface: I is there a matter for a new remote control ? Project Manager: if it is trendy original I d fulfil the user needs User Interface: Is it a single device remote control or is it a multidevice remote control ? Project Manager: We have to discuss that point User Interface: this is not defined at all ? Project Manager: you you can suggest points like this So what what so we have to decide for example if it can control one device or multiple So what is what are your ideas about that ? Maybe I can have the your opinion from the marketing side ? User Interface: Well do we sell other stuff ? if if we bundle the remote control with something to sell then it could be a single device otherwise it could be programmable one otherwise who would buy a remote control from us Project Manager: so if it selled by its own i it it would rather be for multiple device So maybe it should be for multiple devices And do you have any ideas of design ideas or any technical requirement we we should fulfil ? Industrial Designer: I think we should not have too many b for my part I think User Interface: No I couldn I can not fi think of any requirements right now Industrial Designer: If we do not have so many buttons could be nice Project Manager: And do you have it also to be to be lighted in order to be used in the dark ? Might be a good idea And do you have any any idea of the trend the trend in domain what it should not it should look like or things like that ? Industrial Designer: Something which is not squarey maybe not a box User Interface: Something like that least fits in your hand Project Manager: So Fit in your hand And also it have i it may be it may be important for the remote control to be To to resist to various shocks that can happen if it fall Industrial Designer: And I think we should have a device Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can use it in your in your bath whereas the others can not Maybe waterproof would be very original Havin having a waterproof remote control so that the people can use it in their bath User Interface: B it seems so but if you do not have an waterproof remote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of f Project Manager: but it is still something you have to buy and that is not maybe very User Interface: And and that is one of the that is one of the shock I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it is going to break and they put some extra plastic around it That is people they actually do it themselves Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with already this plastic thing and the waterproof stuff as well User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case Project Manager: Maybe we can sell all that together so so plastic protection and and a waterproof box as well That might be good track to follow User Interface: Like as an optional thing Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ? Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control We should have s special bu button on the TV to make the remote control beeping Project Manager: Maybe we can have But we do not design the TV Maybe we can have something you whistle and the remote control beep So we can have a whistle remote control ? I do not know whistleable ? Th Whistle tracking Whistle tracking remote control That is a good idea that is very original and that is can improve User Interface: That is that is quite cool but of course we you do not normally need any audio recording stuff on your remote control right ? So i it is just going to add t to the cost Project Manager: but s still we have to mm we have to have an advantage over our competitors I think this is a good advantage","Given the customer demand and conferees personal experiences, several designing requirements were proposed during the discussion. The remote control was decided to be adaptable to multiple devices with few buttons, be able to be lighted in the dark and held in hand, and be both water-proof and shock-proof along with a whistle tracking system, based on which advantage over competitors might well be gained at the price of a rising production cost." "Industrial Designer: And I think we should have a device Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can use it in your in your bath whereas the others can not Maybe waterproof would be very original Havin having a waterproof remote control so that the people can use it in their bath User Interface: B it seems so but if you do not have an waterproof remote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of f Project Manager: but it is still something you have to buy and that is not maybe very","Considering the product originality, Project Manager believed that a water-proof remote control could be used in the bath conveniently while saving the customer’s need to purchase an extra plastic cover. Therefore, originality and competitiveness might be gained over competitive products." "User Interface: And and that is one of the that is one of the shock I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it is going to break and they put some extra plastic around it That is people they actually do it themselves Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with already this plastic thing and the waterproof stuff as well User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case Project Manager: Maybe we can sell all that together so so plastic protection and and a waterproof box as well That might be good track to follow User Interface: Like as an optional thing Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ? Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control",Conferees agreed that the remote control could be sold with optional plastic protection and water-proof box for customers to choose. "Industrial Designer: And I I think we should have something most of the time I I lose my remote control We should have s special bu button on the TV to make the remote control beeping Project Manager: Maybe we can have But we do not design the TV Maybe we can have something you whistle and the remote control beep So we can have a whistle remote control ? I do not know whistleable ? Th Whistle tracking Whistle tracking remote control That is a good idea that is very original and that is can improve","Industrial Designer first recommended adding a special beeping button on the TV set to remind users of where the remote controls were, but the plan was deemed impractical concerning TV sets that were not designed by them. Then Project Manager suggested whistle tracking and was approved by all the conferees as an original improvement." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: Right Well thank you very much for that question I mean obviously it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency but I think it is important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation Now early education of course is the responsibility of the Minister for Education and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education For example local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and fouryearolds across Wales but there is quite a variance in how much is actually provided with some local authorities providing a lot more historically So it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales according to what local authorities do But what I could say is of course the quality is very good as the Estyn reports have shown that the quality provided the delivery of the foundation phase is very good But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales and that is the decision of the local authorities and it is a historical thing I refer to this pilot in Flint which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare We are going to have an independent evaluation on that soon in November this year so that will help us Obviously I think local authorities role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas And then of course we have got Flying Start which is geographically targeted which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in incomedependent households So again that determines the pattern throughout Wales With Flying Start being geographically targeted with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is we know that there is a variance throughout Wales We would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on Janet Siâns got a supplementary Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ?","Julie Morgan insisted that they were aware that different local authorities actually had adopted different patterns of providing early education. And with the Flying Start programme being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities, they knew that there was a variance throughout Wales. Then they would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas. And It was demand-led and universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, so they believed the programme should be available to everybody." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ?","The Welsh and UK Governments had followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents, which was a mistake and should be more universally available. The demand-driven approach was based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being more universal, and whether that's the right way. It was hard for children to mix with peers from different backgrounds and age groups? Next, some areas had traditionally got more childcare anyway because they had traditionally more demand in those areas, so there was not a level playing field to start from." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you I have got some questions now from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: Right Well thank you very much for that question I mean obviously it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency but I think it is important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation Now early education of course is the responsibility of the Minister for Education and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education For example local authorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and fouryearolds across Wales but there is quite a variance in how much is actually provided with some local authorities providing a lot more historically So it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales according to what local authorities do But what I could say is of course the quality is very good as the Estyn reports have shown that the quality provided the delivery of the foundation phase is very good But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales and that is the decision of the local authorities and it is a historical thing I refer to this pilot in Flint which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare We are going to have an independent evaluation on that soon in November this year so that will help us Obviously I think local authorities role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas And then of course we have got Flying Start which is geographically targeted which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to three are living in incomedependent households So again that determines the pattern throughout Wales With Flying Start being geographically targeted with the education being determined by the local authorities about how much there is we know that there is a variance throughout Wales We would like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in those areas Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on Janet Siâns got a supplementary Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ? Julie Morgan AM: I think that historically that is definitely true and when you look at the takeup of the childcare offer it is certainly taken up in some areas with a very high takeup rate I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something— Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money because they have not got enough funding No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that","The team was aware that different local authorities actually had adopted different patterns of providing early education. And with the Flying Start programme being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities, they knew that there was a variance throughout Wales. Next some of their care provision was universally available in certain areas. Then historically, that was definitely true, and they were certainly planning to expand it, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years. Finally they had got the system of inspection to ensure that." "Sian Gwenllian AM: No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you have got a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Just on this early point anybody who is been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now will have some Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees For the entrants that are coming into childcare training now there are going to be very few of them realistically with no Welsh at all so what is actually being incorporated into the early years care training to make sure at that stage that the Welsh language skills are being developed as opposed to an addon later on ? Nicola Edwards: You are quite right Most people coming through the education system will have some awareness of Welsh although I think it is probably important to remember we do also employ people from outside of wales Suzy Davies AM: Yes but the majority being realistic Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training","Janet Finch-Saunders believed that the Welsh and UK Governments had followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents, so there was not a level playing field to start from. However, Julie Morgan insisted that some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme. Then they were certainly planning to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that." "Sian Gwenllian AM: No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that","Julie Morgan insisted that some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme. Then they were certainly planning to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase there have been cuts of course in expenditure in that phase How concerned are you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools ? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant which has seen a reduction of 10 per cent and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding So are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in the foundation phase ? Julie Morgan AM: I have not seen any evidence Obviously I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education but I have not seen any evidence of any standards being lowered and the reports from Estyn are very good In fact I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys that we absolutely celebrate it and so I would be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standards in the foundation phase and I certainly have not had any evidence of that I would want to guard against that Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts it is going to impact on standards at the end of the day Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in and it has proved to be a great success so we want to make sure that is guarded Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of early childhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demanddriven approach to the childcare market with subsidies mainly given to working parents Is that a mistake ? Should it be more universally available ? Julie Morgan AM: Well some of our provision is universally available in certain areas For example the Flying Start provision is universally available in geographically defined areas and I think that is very important because that does mean that there is not stigma and soin those areas everybody can take advantage of it and yet it is reaching those who are most in need because it is reaching those areas So I think that there is a purpose behind that In terms of when you say demand led could you elaborate on that ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we have just had a useful briefing from David Dallimore and basically there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demanddriven approach is based more on certain factors : geographic spread in terms of it being more universal and whether that is the right way How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds in their own peer or age group ? Nicola Edwards: Inaudible—because the offer is targeted at working parents— —obviously then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up Is that the context of demand led in that— Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working and I think what you are saying is that it should be available to everybody Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janets making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in those areas so there is not a level playing field to start from Is that correct ? Julie Morgan AM: I think that historically that is definitely true and when you look at the takeup of the childcare offer it is certainly taken up in some areas with a very high takeup rate I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something— Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money because they have not got enough funding No to meet the demand Julie Morgan AM: In other areas it is much much lower—in some of the cities I know So there is a big range in takeup— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So do you intend to bring something forward to address that ? Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it We are looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are in education and training So we are widening the offer yes Obviously we have to wait for the evaluation of that It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody but obviously we have got the finance to look at in terms of how we do that But we are certainly planning to expand it Lynne Neagle AM: We have got questions on the offer in a little while Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend to develop an integrated approach then against all settings ? If so given the current inconsistencies how can quality be assured ? Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years As I have said we are trying to have the foundation phase operating in more nonmaintained settings and we are already developing that But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector to ensure standards and since January 2019 CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the nonmaintained settings that are offering the foundation phase So that is a very positive move I think and is absolutely making sure that standards are maintained because if we are having the foundation phase in nonmaintained settings that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy of the foundation phase are maintained So we have got the system of inspection to ensure that","Julie Morgan certainly plans to expand the programme, which is believed to be a demand-led approach. Last they were managing it within the normal budgetary process, developing a more integrated approach towards the early years, and had got the system of inspection to ensure that. Because some of their provision was universally available in certain areas. Hence historically that was definitely true of the programme." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you have got a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Just on this early point anybody who is been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now will have some Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees For the entrants that are coming into childcare training now there are going to be very few of them realistically with no Welsh at all so what is actually being incorporated into the early years care training to make sure at that stage that the Welsh language skills are being developed as opposed to an addon later on ? Nicola Edwards: You are quite right Most people coming through the education system will have some awareness of Welsh although I think it is probably important to remember we do also employ people from outside of wales Suzy Davies AM: Yes but the majority being realistic Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training That is fine Thank you for that Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on you said that 29 per cent of the takeup of the childcare offer is either through Welsh or is bilingual Have you got any figures about how many children are accessing it in Welsh only ? Nicola Edwards: We will have It becomes— With the way we do it it is because of the way that the setting defines their language category and that is how we collect it We do go down to individual child level although it is anonymised data collection on a termly basis So I will have a look and see if we can send you through the last term Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe if the committee could have a note that would be really useful We have got some questions now on childcare from Dawn Bowden Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Deputy Minister the evaluation of the childcare offer when it was published last year said that there was very little evidence currently available to determine what its impact was You are going to be producing a second evaluation in November this year do you expect to see some indications now of the impact ? Julie Morgan AM: Well the evaluation of the first year of the childcare offer was very limited because the childcare offer was not available throughout the whole of Wales And it was a very early implementation phase So obviously it takes time to grow And the evaluation for year 2 I think will also show a limited impact for the same reasons The offer became available across the whole of Wales only last April So we have only got since last April that it is actually been fully available And the parental survey was released to parents in June 2019 therefore any impact on parents in the authorities coming on board in the second year will also be negligible So it is from the next one however we hope that we will get more information Dawn Bowden AM: So you think by the time we get to November 2020 you might have a better picture Julie Morgan AM: The evaluation will be more meaningful we think then yes","Julie Morgan thought the demand was very important, and they were pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer were in Welsh or bilingual settings, so that they established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and played workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. But Suzy Davies thought that just on this early point, anybody who had been through the Welsh education system which is 20 years now, would have Welsh language skills obviously to differing degrees. Next, Nicola Edwards alleged that it was not necessarily appropriate for teaching language to children, because they might be coming from families who didn't use Welsh at home, but it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way." "Nicola Edwards: But they do not necessarily have Welsh that is appropriate They have got Welsh that they have developed in school It is not necessarily appropriate for then teaching that language to children who may be coming from families who do not use Welsh at home So that might be the first interaction that child has with the language So there is a lot of that in terms of child development and how you develop children bilingually particularly if they are coming from Englishmedium homes and reinforcing the language in language choices There will also be some people who are perhaps—we see this quite a lot in the office—quite confident in terms of speaking Welsh but less so in terms of some of the paperwork the reporting the writing and the interacting with parents more officially which we need to think about as well But it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way Suzy Davies AM: And it is ingrained in the early years training","Nicola Edwards alleged that it was not necessarily appropriate for teaching language to children, because they might be coming from families who didn't use Welsh at home, but it is mainly about getting people to a point where they can transmit that language onwards in a confident and meaningful way." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitments from the Welsh Governments 2017 childcareplay early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforces Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify where capacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important and we are pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up the childcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings so we think that is very good We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector So we are actually working with that and I think you have done something with those recently have not you ? I do not know if you want to— Nicola Edwards: Yes So we have a stakeholder group where we have brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years childcare and play sectors and we had a presentation just last month from the national language centre about the education programmes that they are rolling out and how this is all coming together which is quite interesting We have been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of workbased learning programmes that we provide and offer are also available in Welsh and bilingually Recruitment and retention within the childcare and play sector is quite challenging in any case Recruiting and retaining staff with really good Welsh language skills adds an extra dimension to it and that it is a point that Mudiad Meithrin makes to us quite regularly that they do struggle to find staff with the right skills So upskilling the existing workforce is a key part of it but also doing more to attract people in with Welsh language skills in the first place in terms of the training courses that we are taking forward and thinking about that in the context of the targets within Cymraeg 2050 and the aim to get to one million Welsh speakers So as the Deputy Minister said we have got quite a number of children accessing the offer in Welshmedium or bilingual settings at the moment We are going to be doing some baselining work against that in terms of local authorities Welsh in education strategic plans and education places and what we can then do to increase the number of childcare places in parallel with that so that you can make sure that you start that pathway through learning Welsh interacting with education and childcare through Welsh at a much earlier stage","Julie Morgan recommended to believe the demand was very important, and to establish a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in childcare and played workforce with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. And also she agreed on Nicola Edwards's idea that they should have a stakeholder group where they had brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years, childcare and play sectors." "Sian Gwenllian AM: As we know of course the work with Her Majestys Revenue and Customs has ended and I know you were not the Minister who initiated this process but what exactly has gone wrong ? What are these issues that have come to light that have made you suspend that ? It is very frustrating for us as a committee who scrutinised that extensively and raised a lot of concerns about that And a lot of time has been spent talking about this funding Bill and money—£1 million I understand—has been wasted if you like unnecessarily So what exactly has gone wrong ? Why are not you discussing these things with HMRC ? Yes So thank you for that explanation Julie Morgan AM: I have got more to say as well Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but for your transparency around your particular view that it needs to be more flexible and expanded upon and therefore going down the HMRC route was— Julie Morgan AM: It would have restricted us a lot Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes We knew that from the beginning I mean that is you know— So it was a principle decision rather than any sort of technical matters to do with the Welsh language standards That is been cited as one kind of— But I am really understanding more now that really what it is about is that you want to have a more flexible and expand on the offer and that this would curtail—going through HMRC would put limits on that Julie Morgan AM: That is one of the reasons but there were issues about the Welsh language which we can go into in detail if you would like There were some issues about that They would be able to process things bilingually and I think that was probably told to the committee when we looked at the HMRC But in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister has to use there would be some difficulties in them doing it Sian Gwenllian AM: But would you say that your main change came about because you wanted to be more flexible rather than any difficulties— Julie Morgan AM: One of the major reasons I think— But there are— As I say there are other reasons Those technical reasons probably do end up being quite important— Sian Gwenllian AM: But the committee was told by the previous Minister that HMRC would not have any problem at all with delivering according to the Welsh language standards Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to add something to this ? Nicola Edwards: So in terms of some of the technical issues we had if you want to start with the bilingual provision and the Welsh language standards HMRC do provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme and I think we can all appreciate that schemes are quite different from the requirements of the standards And there were some issues when we got into the detail of the standards that the Welsh Ministers are required to deliver to that caused some concerns in terms of how HMRC were going to do it particularly in terms of the multiple IT systems that go into building up the childcare services So for example there are a number of what are called special characters in the Welsh alphabet such as the to bach for example The HMRC IT system has some issues with that Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes well with due respect the to bach has always been there— Nicola Edwards: Oh yes I completely agree Unfortunately however— Sian Gwenllian AM: —and HMRC would have been able to tell you really early on you would have thought that it was— I do not really want to go into it because I think we have got to the crux of why HMRC was dropped I think it is been dropped because Julie feels that the offer needs to be more flexible and I can understand why you would say that Julie Morgan AM: If we bring in training and education for example we would not be able to do that via the HMRC it would have to be done by the local authorities Foster parents have to be done via the local authorities Any people of immigration status of no resource from public funds that would have to be done via the local authorities And with the local authorities also wanting to do it— I mean there are other things with using HMRC—if any changes were made with the English offer for example because this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer that would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer So we wanted something more flexible I do not know if there is anything more you want to add on that Jo-Anne Daniels: The only thing I would add is that—and again I think the Minister has referred to this—the costs that HMRC presented us with at the end of the discovery phase were significantly higher than the costs that had initially been outlined and that we outlined to the committee in the regulatory impact assessment So our conclusion is that we can deliver a cheaper system and a system that has the flexibility that the Deputy Minister has referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC So there is an important issue around value for money as well and making sure that the investment that we are making into developing the national system is one that—that in a sense that investment stays in Wales So obviously the money that we are paying over to HMRC to run the system would be supporting HMRC and their employees wherever they may be based many of them not based in Wales investment in local authorities to administer the system means that we are retaining more of that investment here Sian Gwenllian AM: Well I congratulate you on persuading local government and WLGA to change their minds because they actually told this committee that they favoured the HMRC option—and this is only going back a few months—because it will remove—and this is quoting them— it will remove the administrative burden of receiving applications and checking eligibility from local authorities— blah blah blah blah So they have obviously changed their minds as well which is you know— I congratulate you on that but it does present us as a committee with a little bit of a problem really because if we are told one thing a few months ago and then we are told something completely different today you know evidence—we have to go on evidence that we have heard and the evidence has changed now","Sian Gwenllian pointed out that the issues with HMRC had come to light that had made the team suspended the programme for the HMRC would have put limits on that. Julie Morgan answered that in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister had to use, there would be some difficulties in them doing it. For instance this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer, which would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer. So, they wanted something more flexible. Nicola Edwards also agreed that the technical issues with HMRC for HMRC did provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme. Jo-Anne Daniels finally came to the conclusion that they could deliver a cheaper system with flexibility that the Deputy Minister had referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC." "Sian Gwenllian AM: As we know of course the work with Her Majestys Revenue and Customs has ended and I know you were not the Minister who initiated this process but what exactly has gone wrong ? What are these issues that have come to light that have made you suspend that ? It is very frustrating for us as a committee who scrutinised that extensively and raised a lot of concerns about that And a lot of time has been spent talking about this funding Bill and money—£1 million I understand—has been wasted if you like unnecessarily So what exactly has gone wrong ? Why are not you discussing these things with HMRC ? Yes So thank you for that explanation Julie Morgan AM: I have got more to say as well Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but for your transparency around your particular view that it needs to be more flexible and expanded upon and therefore going down the HMRC route was— Julie Morgan AM: It would have restricted us a lot Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes We knew that from the beginning I mean that is you know— So it was a principle decision rather than any sort of technical matters to do with the Welsh language standards That is been cited as one kind of— But I am really understanding more now that really what it is about is that you want to have a more flexible and expand on the offer and that this would curtail—going through HMRC would put limits on that Julie Morgan AM: That is one of the reasons but there were issues about the Welsh language which we can go into in detail if you would like There were some issues about that They would be able to process things bilingually and I think that was probably told to the committee when we looked at the HMRC But in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister has to use there would be some difficulties in them doing it Sian Gwenllian AM: But would you say that your main change came about because you wanted to be more flexible rather than any difficulties— Julie Morgan AM: One of the major reasons I think— But there are— As I say there are other reasons Those technical reasons probably do end up being quite important— Sian Gwenllian AM: But the committee was told by the previous Minister that HMRC would not have any problem at all with delivering according to the Welsh language standards Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to add something to this ? Nicola Edwards: So in terms of some of the technical issues we had if you want to start with the bilingual provision and the Welsh language standards HMRC do provide a bilingual service at the moment for their customers in line with their Welsh language scheme and I think we can all appreciate that schemes are quite different from the requirements of the standards And there were some issues when we got into the detail of the standards that the Welsh Ministers are required to deliver to that caused some concerns in terms of how HMRC were going to do it particularly in terms of the multiple IT systems that go into building up the childcare services So for example there are a number of what are called special characters in the Welsh alphabet such as the to bach for example The HMRC IT system has some issues with that Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes well with due respect the to bach has always been there— Nicola Edwards: Oh yes I completely agree Unfortunately however— Sian Gwenllian AM: —and HMRC would have been able to tell you really early on you would have thought that it was— I do not really want to go into it because I think we have got to the crux of why HMRC was dropped I think it is been dropped because Julie feels that the offer needs to be more flexible and I can understand why you would say that Julie Morgan AM: If we bring in training and education for example we would not be able to do that via the HMRC it would have to be done by the local authorities Foster parents have to be done via the local authorities Any people of immigration status of no resource from public funds that would have to be done via the local authorities And with the local authorities also wanting to do it— I mean there are other things with using HMRC—if any changes were made with the English offer for example because this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer that would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer So we wanted something more flexible I do not know if there is anything more you want to add on that","Julie Morgan thought that in terms of the Welsh language standards that the Minister had to use, there would be some difficulties in them doing the programme. For instance this would be delivered via HMRC with the English offer, which would cause difficulties for the Welsh offer. So, they wanted something more flexible." "Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Ms Daniels you referred to value for money How much is it actually going to cost to change this system from being a temporary arrangement with local authorities to a permanent one ? And how much more is it going to cost for the more flexible system that you have in mind ? They are not going to do this for nothing How much extra are you giving them and will they use it for this ? How are you ensuring it is used for this ? Jo-Anne Daniels: So at the moment local— So two things Just to start by saying the eligibility checking process is not undertaken by all 22 local authorities Suzy Davies AM: No no I realise that Yes I got all that Jo-Anne Daniels: So part of the reason for using 10 is to try to ensure that we build economies of scale and that we have a more efficient operation Those authorities that undertake that function are given a specific grant in order to do that That grant is ringfenced to that purpose Suzy Davies AM: Could you give us an idea of the price tag ? Jo-Anne Daniels: At the moment it is about £25 million Suzy Davies AM: just as a round figure—that is fine Nicola Edwards: Just for the administration They get separate funding for the childcare obviously Jo-Anne Daniels: So that as I said is a ringfenced sum that they use to administer the offer We are now starting the detailed work to define the new system requirements so that we will have a single application process across Wales moving forward As part of that work we will need to consider the detailed costings but our initial estimate suggests that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC","Jo-Anne Daniels finally came to the conclusion that they could deliver a cheaper system with flexibility that the Deputy Minister had referred to by working with local authorities rather than HMRC. At the moment, the extra cost would be about £2.5 million, which according to their initial estimate suggested that it would be less than the cost proposed by HMRC." "Grad F: and that s just what I used to generate the order of these particular ones Professor C: So I m impressed by what we could do Is take the standard training set for TI digits train up with whatever you know great features we think we have for instance and then test on this test set And presumably it should do reasonably well on that and then presumably we should go to the distant mike and it should do poorly And then we should get really smart over the next year or two and it that should get better Grad F: Right And inc increase it by one or two percent but in order to do that we need to extract out the actual digits so that the reason it s not just a transcript is that there are false starts and misreads and miscues and things like that And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion hit ARE it tells you what the next one should be and you just look for that You know so it it will put on the screen `` The next set is six nine nine two two `` And you find that and hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format And so the the question is should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well some of us I ve been do I ve done eight meetings something like that just by hand Just myself rather So it will not take long Professor C: what what do you think ? Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it s a it s a fine idea partly because it s not un unrelated to their present skill set but it will add for them an extra dimension it might be an interesting break for them And also it is contributing to the c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it will be a more complete transcript So I m I think it s fine that part Professor C: So you think it s fine to have the transcribers do it ? Grad F: There s one other small bit which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form onto the computer to go along with the where the digits are recorded automatically And so it s just you know typing in name times time date and so on which again either they can do but it is you know firing up an editor or again I can do Or someone else can do Postdoc B: And that you know I m not that that one I m not so sure if it s into the the things that I wanted to use the hours for because the the time that they would be spending doing that they would not be able to be putting more words on But that s really your choice it s your PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before Grad F: No they do not have this you have to enter the data before you do the second task but they do not have to happen at the same time So it s it s just I have a file whi which has this information on it and then when you start using my scripts for extracting the times it adds the times at the bottom of the file And so I mean it s easy to create the files and leave them blank and so actually we could do it in either order it s it s sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double check to make sure you are entering for the right person But either way Professor C: just by way of a order of magnitude we ve been working with this Aurora data set And the best score on the nicest part of the data that is where you ve got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth is about I think the best score was something like five percent error per digit You are right So if you were doing pause ten digit recognition you would really be in trouble So So the The point there and this is car noise things but but real real situation well `` real `` the there s one microphone that s close that they have as as this sort of thing close versus distant but in a car instead of instead of having a projector noise it s it s car noise but it was not artificially added to get some some artificial signal to noise ratio It was just people driving around in a car So that s that s an indication that was with many sites competing and this was the very best score and so forth so More typical numbers like PhD D: Although the models were not that good right ? I mean the models are pretty crappy ? Professor C: You are right I think that we could have done better on the models but the thing is that we got this this is the kind of typical number for all of the things in this task all of the languages And so I I think we would probably the models would be better in some than in others so Anyway just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you are looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard Postdoc B: It s going to be fun to see how we compare at this Very exciting s PhD D: How did we do on the TI digits ? Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it s going to be strange I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI digits for example So I m I m not sure how much of effect that will have PhD G: What do you mean the prosodics ? Grad F: just what we were talking about with grouping That with these the grouping there s no grouping at all and so it s just the only sort of discontinuity you have is at the beginning and the end PhD G: So what are they doing in Aurora are they reading actual phone numbers Grad F: Aurora I do not know I do not know what they do in Aurora PhD G: or a a digit at a time or ? Professor C: I m not sure how no no I mean it s connected it s connected digits PhD G: So there s also the not just the prosody but the cross the cross word modeling is probably quite different Grad F: But in TI digits they are reading things like zip codes and phone numbers and things like that PhD D: do we do on TI digits ? Grad F: so it s going to be different I do not remember I mean very good right ? Professor C: I mean we were in the Grad F: One and a half percent two percent something like that ? Professor C: I th no I think we got under a percent but it was but it s but I mean The very best system that I saw in the literature was a point two five percent or something that somebody had at at Bell Labs or but But sort of pulling out all the stops Postdoc B: s It s strikes me that there are more each of them is more informative because it s so random Professor C: But I think a lot of systems sort of get half a percent or three quarters a percent and we are we are in there somewhere Grad F: But that I mean it s really it s it s close talking mikes no noise clean signal just digits I mean every everything is good PhD G: It s the beginning of time in speech recognition Grad F: And we ve only recently got it to anywhere near human PhD G: It s like the single cell you know it s the beginning of life Grad F: And it s still like an order of magnitude worse than what humans do Professor C: When When they are wide awake after coffee you are right Not after lunch Grad F: OK so what I will do then is I will go ahead and enter this data And then hand off to Jane and the transcribers to do the actual extraction of the digits Professor C: One question I have that that I mean we would not know the answer to now but might do some guessing but I was talking before about doing some model modeling of arti marking of articulatory features with overlap and so on And and On some subset One thought might be to do this on on the digits or some piece of the digits it would be easier and so forth The only thing is I m a little concerned that maybe the kind of phenomena in w i i The reason for doing it is because the the argument is that certainly with conversational speech the stuff that we ve looked at here before just doing the simple mapping from the phone to the corresponding features that you could look up in a book is not right It is not actually right In fact there s these overlapping processes where some voicing some up and then some you know some nasality is comes in here and so forth And you do this gross thing saying `` Well I guess it s this phone starting there `` So that s the reasoning But It could be that when we are reading digits because it s it s for such a limited set that maybe maybe that phenomenon does not occur as much I do not know Di an anybody ? pause Do you have any ? pause Anybody have any opinion about that Postdoc B: and that people might articulate more and you that might end up with more a closer correspondence Grad F: that s I I agree It s a Well Would this corpus really be the right one to even try that on ? PhD G: Well it s definitely true that when people are reading even if they are re reading what they had said spontaneously that they have very different patterns Mitch showed that and some dissertations have shown that","The group discussed the collection status for a set of connected digits recordings that are nearly complete and ready to be trained on a recognizer. Anticipated results were discussed in reference to results obtained for other digits corpora, i.e. Aurora and TI-digits." "Grad F: so that the reason it s not just a transcript is that there are false starts and misreads and miscues and things like that And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion hit ARE it tells you what the next one should be and you just look for that You know so it it will put on the screen `` The next set is six nine nine two two `` And you find that and hit the key and it records it in a file in a particular format And so the the question is should we have the transcribers do that or should we just do it ? Well some of us I ve been do I ve done eight meetings something like that just by hand Just myself rather So it will not take long Professor C: what what do you think ? Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I think it s a it s a fine idea partly because it s not un unrelated to their present skill set but it will add for them an extra dimension it might be an interesting break for them And also it is contributing to the c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it will be a more complete transcript So I m I think it s fine that part Professor C: So you think it s fine to have the transcribers do it ? Grad F: There s one other small bit which is just entering the information which at s which is at the top of this form onto the computer to go along with the where the digits are recorded automatically And so it s just you know typing in name times time date and so on which again either they can do but it is you know firing up an editor or again I can do Or someone else can do Postdoc B: And that you know I m not that that one I m not so sure if it s into the the things that I wanted to use the hours for because the the time that they would be spending doing that they would not be able to be putting more words on But that s really your choice it s your PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that can happen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before Grad F: No they do not have this you have to enter the data before you do the second task but they do not have to happen at the same time So it s it s just I have a file whi which has this information on it and then when you start using my scripts for extracting the times it adds the times at the bottom of the file And so I mean it s easy to create the files and leave them blank and so actually we could do it in either order it s it s sort of nice to have the same person do it just as a double check to make sure you are entering for the right person But either way Professor C: just by way of a order of magnitude we ve been working with this Aurora data set And the best score on the nicest part of the data that is where you ve got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth is about I think the best score was something like five percent error per digit You are right So if you were doing pause ten digit recognition you would really be in trouble So So the The point there and this is car noise things but but real real situation well `` real `` the there s one microphone that s close that they have as as this sort of thing close versus distant but in a car instead of instead of having a projector noise it s it s car noise but it was not artificially added to get some some artificial signal to noise ratio It was just people driving around in a car So that s that s an indication that was with many sites competing and this was the very best score and so forth so More typical numbers like PhD D: Although the models were not that good right ? I mean the models are pretty crappy ? Professor C: You are right I think that we could have done better on the models but the thing is that we got this this is the kind of typical number for all of the things in this task all of the languages And so I I think we would probably the models would be better in some than in others so Anyway just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you are looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard Postdoc B: It s going to be fun to see how we compare at this Very exciting s PhD D: How did we do on the TI digits ? Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it s going to be strange I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI digits for example",decision was also made to delegate transcribers with the task of labelling a subset of digits or Switchboard data for fine-grained acoustic-phonetic features. Speaker fe008 will run selected Meeting Recorder data through channelize and determine whether the resulting units are of a sufficient length. "Professor C: I mean this is the kind of reason why I remember when at one of the Switchboard workshops that when we talked about doing the transcription project Dave Talkin said `` can not be done `` He was he was what what he meant was that this is not you know a sequence of phones and when you actually look at Switchboard that s not what you see and you know And It Grad F: And in in fact the inter annotator agreement was not that good right ? On the harder ones ? PhD G: It depends how you look at it and I I understand what you are saying about this kind of transcription exactly because I ve seen you know where does the voicing bar start and so forth All I m saying is that it is useful to have that the transcription of what was really said and which syllables were reduced if you are going to add the features it s also useful to have some level of representation which is is a reduced it s a pronunciation variant that currently the dictionaries do not give you because if you add them to the dictionary and you run recognition you you add confusion So people purposely do not add them So it s useful to know which variant was was produced at least at the phone level PhD D: So it would be it would be great if we had either these kind of labelings on the same portion of Switchboard that Steve marked or Steve s type markings on this data with these PhD G: Right That s all I mean Exactly Professor C: no I I do not disagree with that PhD G: And Steve s type is fairly it s not that slow I do not know exactly what the timing was but Professor C: you I do not disagree with it the on the only thing is that What you actually will end en end up with is something i it s all compromised right so the string that you end up with is not actually what happened But it s it s the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened PhD D: And it s more accurate than phone labels Professor C: But And it s more accurate than the than the dictionary or if you ve got a pronunciation lexicon that has three or four this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever PhD D: So it s like a continuum It s you are going all the way down PhD G: That s what I meant is an and in some places it would fill in So the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere So there are some things that you do not have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram but you know what phone it was and that s about all you can all you can say And then there are other cases where nasality voicing PhD D: It s basically just having multiple levels of of information and marking on the signal Grad F: Well the other difference is that the the features are not synchronous right They overlap each other in weird ways So it s not a strictly one dimensional signal So I think that s sorta qualitatively different PhD G: Right You can add the features in but it will be underspecified Th there will be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features Grad F: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system that the states were features rather than phones PhD G: And i if you are Well we we ve probably have a separate discussion of of whether you can do that Postdoc B: That s Well pause is not that I thought that was well but that was not that kind of the direction ? Professor C: so I mean what what where this is I mean I I want would like to have something that s useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind so it should be something broader But The but where I m coming from is we are coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with with John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which they have a m a multi band system that is trained through a combination of gradient learning an and THEM to pause estimate the value for m for for a particular feature OK And this is part of a larger image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he s sort of imagining that individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate of of these these kinds of something like this Might not be you know exact features that Jakobson thought of or something But I mean you know some something like that Some kind of low level features which are not fully you know phone classification And the the th this particular image of how thi how it s done is that then given all of these estimates at that level there s a level above it then which is is making some kind of sound unit classification such as you know phone and and you know You could argue what what a sound unit should be and and so forth But that that s sort of what I was imagining doing and but it s still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones or not You would not necessarily have to but Again I would not want to would not want what we we produced to be so know local in perspective that it it was matched what we were thinking of doing one week And and and you know what you are saying is absolutely right That that if we can we should put in another level of of description there if we are going to get into some of this low level stuff PhD D: Well you know I mean if we are talking about having the annotators annotate these kinds of features it seems like You know you The the question is do they do that on meeting data ? Or do they do that on Switchboard ? Grad F: That s what I was saying Postdoc B: W Well it seems like you could do both Grad F: maybe meeting data is not the right corpus Postdoc B: I mean I was thinking that it would be interesting to do it with respect to parts of Switchboard anyway in terms of partly to see if you could generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be based on the phone representation at that lower level It might be a time gain But also in terms of comparability of PhD D: Well cuz the and then also if you did it on Switchboard you would have the full continuum of transcriptions You would have it from the lowest level the ac acoustic features then you would have the you know the phonetic level that Steve did PhD G: that that s all I was thinking about Postdoc B: And you could tell that PhD G: it is telephone band so the bandwidth might be PhD D: It would be a complete set then Postdoc B: And you get the relative gain up ahead Professor C: It s so it s a little different So I mean i we will see wha how much we can get the people to do and how much money we will have and all this sort of thing PhD D: But it it might be good to do what Jane was saying you know seed it with guesses about what we think the features are based on you know the phone or Steve s transcriptions or something to make it quicker Professor C: but Might be do both Grad F: Alright so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous but then you could imagine nudging them here and there",The group also considered the prospect of performing fine-grained acoustic-phonetic analyses on a subset of Meeting Recorder digits or Switchboard data. Pre-segmentation manipulations that allow for the segmentation of channel-specific speech/non-speech portions of the signal and the distinction of foreground versus background speech were discussed. "Professor C: no I I do not disagree with that PhD G: And Steve s type is fairly it s not that slow I do not know exactly what the timing was but Professor C: you I do not disagree with it the on the only thing is that What you actually will end en end up with is something i it s all compromised right so the string that you end up with is not actually what happened But it s it s the best compromise that a group of people scratching their heads could come up with to describe what happened PhD D: And it s more accurate than phone labels Professor C: But And it s more accurate than the than the dictionary or if you ve got a pronunciation lexicon that has three or four this might be have been the fifth one that you tr that you pruned or whatever PhD D: So it s like a continuum It s you are going all the way down PhD G: That s what I meant is an and in some places it would fill in So the kinds of gestural features are not everywhere So there are some things that you do not have access to either from your ear or the spectrogram but you know what phone it was and that s about all you can all you can say And then there are other cases where nasality voicing PhD D: It s basically just having multiple levels of of information and marking on the signal Grad F: Well the other difference is that the the features are not synchronous right They overlap each other in weird ways So it s not a strictly one dimensional signal So I think that s sorta qualitatively different PhD G: Right You can add the features in but it will be underspecified Th there will be no way for you to actually mark what was said completely by features Grad F: Well not with our current system but you could imagine designing a system that the states were features rather than phones PhD G: And i if you are Well we we ve probably have a separate discussion of of whether you can do that Postdoc B: That s Well pause is not that I thought that was well but that was not that kind of the direction ? Professor C: so I mean what what where this is I mean I I want would like to have something that s useful to people other than those who are doing the specific kind of research I have in mind so it should be something broader But The but where I m coming from is we are coming off of stuff that Larry Saul did with with John Dalan and Muzim Rahim in which they have a m a multi band system that is trained through a combination of gradient learning an and THEM to pause estimate the value for m for for a particular feature OK And this is part of a larger image that John Dalan has about how the human brain does it in which he s sort of imagining that individual frequency channels are coming up with their own estimate of of these these kinds of something like this Might not be you know exact features that Jakobson thought of or something But I mean you know some something like that Some kind of low level features which are not fully you know phone classification And the the th this particular image of how thi how it s done is that then given all of these estimates at that level there s a level above it then which is is making some kind of sound unit classification such as you know phone and and you know You could argue what what a sound unit should be and and so forth But that that s sort of what I was imagining doing and but it s still open within that whether you would have an intermediate level in which it was actually phones or not You would not necessarily have to but Again I would not want to would not want what we we produced to be so know local in perspective that it it was matched what we were thinking of doing one week And and and you know what you are saying is absolutely right That that if we can we should put in another level of of description there if we are going to get into some of this low level stuff PhD D: Well you know I mean if we are talking about having the annotators annotate these kinds of features it seems like You know you The the question is do they do that on meeting data ? Or do they do that on Switchboard ? Grad F: That s what I was saying Postdoc B: W Well it seems like you could do both Grad F: maybe meeting data is not the right corpus Postdoc B: I mean I was thinking that it would be interesting to do it with respect to parts of Switchboard anyway in terms of partly to see if you could generate first guesses at what the articulatory feature would be based on the phone representation at that lower level It might be a time gain But also in terms of comparability of PhD D: Well cuz the and then also if you did it on Switchboard you would have the full continuum of transcriptions You would have it from the lowest level the ac acoustic features then you would have the you know the phonetic level that Steve did PhD G: that that s all I was thinking about Postdoc B: And you could tell that PhD G: it is telephone band so the bandwidth might be PhD D: It would be a complete set then Postdoc B: And you get the relative gain up ahead Professor C: It s so it s a little different So I mean i we will see wha how much we can get the people to do and how much money we will have and all this sort of thing PhD D: But it it might be good to do what Jane was saying you know seed it with guesses about what we think the features are based on you know the phone or Steve s transcriptions or something to make it quicker Professor C: but Might be do both Grad F: Alright so based on the phone transcripts they would all be synchronous but then you could imagine nudging them here and there PhD D: Scoot the voicing over a little because Professor C: Well I think what I mean I m I m a l little behind in what they are doing now and the stuff they are doing on Switchboard now But I think that Steve and the gang are doing something with an automatic system first and then doing some adjustment As I re as I recall So I mean that s probably the right way to go anyway is to is to start off with an automatic system with a pretty rich pronunciation dictionary that that you know tries to label it all And then people go through and fix it Postdoc B: So in in our case you would think about us s starting with maybe the regular dictionary entry and then ? Or pause would we Professor C: Well regular dictionary I mean this is a pretty rich dictionary It s got got a fair number of pronunciations in it PhD D: Or you could start from the if we were going to do the same set of sentences that Steve had done we could start with those transcriptions Postdoc B: Mm So I was thinking PhD G: That s actually what I was thinking is tha","The group discussed the prospect of performing fine-grained acoustic-phonetic analyses on a subset of digits or Switchboard data. It was suggested that prior to the use of data-driven methods, knowledge-driven approaches should be used to 'seed' the data with sub-phonemic features, either manually, or using a rich pronunciation dictionary. A new version of the pre-segmentation tool that segments channel-specific speech/non-speech portions of the signal has been developed and tested." "Marketing: But in the cost that the management is looking for that is not going to be possible But if it is trendy if it is fancy it is got some colour to it if it is very easy easy to use if it is got simple remote speech remote control like I said louder softer change channel on off remote it goes beep beep I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset because I can not turn the TV on So we are going to have to look at it in a in this global idea with the ideas of the industrial design But price obviously we have to talk about Project Manager: Yep So what do you think about the design ? Do you think you can make it or Industrial Designer: D I am sorry ? Project Manager: What do you think about the design what he was talking about of the speech recognition ? Industrial Designer: Well training is always an issue with commands So might we can perhaps do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process it could reduce th th the overall cost Not sure how But anyway I I think also that this might impact the battery life And so maybe what we will have to do is add something where you can recharge it wirelessly so that y you know sen send power to it So or maybe set it out in the sun and it you know gets from the light a a solar cell inside there so that you have enough juice to do all these fancy things User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition it is a great feature but if you are watching TV there is a lot of ambient sound and it is words It is not just you know noises like something hitting It is actual speech so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the TV speech and the the users speech Otherwise you can say remote But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing all of a sudden you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies because they have triggered the remote control and it is turned off your TV So I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems then it would be a really good marketing gimmick But I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation Marketing: Because tha w with speech recognition th I am not that good at that idea but th if it is a oneword recognition because I know with telephones and cars and things I have seen in the States a friend of mine says call Mom and it calls up Mom Kay the radio can be on and everything Because I think s with speech recognition if the the remote or like the telephone it has a exact word that it has to hear I do not think it would come through a sentence in a television If somebody is speaking on the se the television they are not going to stop and say remote So I think that something could be designed to recognise single word User Interface: Oh No I think it is a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements Marketing: Like the t like the telephone No because I this is this is years ago in the United States where we are driving down and he said call home and the telephone called immediately so well that is kind of cute Project Manager: Well what I can suggest to you Christine if you need some the technical feedback or some training about this facility especially for the speech recognition I can recommend you some companies like Intel or IBM because they are already in this speech recognition part And you can maybe have some technical backup from them some kind of a technical tieup and if you want I can coordinate to get some information and you can let me know so what kind of the details you require to add this feature in this project I do not think it is the difficult And we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop apart from what today Industrial Designer: we will find that out Marketing: From from your side you are going to have to go back the management and s be more s precise What do they want ? a risk take a risk on the market ? Something that is going to cost more but could very easily s make a boom in the market ? Because it has to be something totally different has to be total totally new Something that nobody has right now And it is going to cost Project Manager: but end of the day you are the sales guy so I will come back and sit on your head because you are going to give your sales projection It is of course it is good to tell the management how much it is cost us and how much you are going to benefit And so I do not mind to convince the management to spend some more money on the project if you can make out of the money from this project Marketing: If the bottom line is positive Project Manager: Yes I do not mind to convince the the management The management says so they they do not want certain facilities which it is already worked they want something new I think like speech recognit definitely they will agree I do not think they will say no for that And I hope I can convince the management on that So if you have any new ideas for your you can always come up and you can tell me if you need any s special coordination between any technical companies which you can hide their technology backup for your functional design or technical design then I am ready to do that And what is your comments about","The group decided that the feature of speech recognition should be included to the remote control, even though it would exceed the cost constraint set by the management. Marketing believed that it is worth taking a risk because speech recognition is new to the market and customers would be willing to pay extra for this trendy function. What's more, Project Manager agreed to coordinate with some technical companies if Industrial Designer ever needed any technological backup." Marketing: I will explain myself here now in the sense that in a in the recent surveys from the ages fr from fifteen to thirtyfive eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy Twentyfive Euros that is that is a preson reasonable price That is a market price right now Now if we are going to take a risk and push this up a bit make it more expensive but give them added things that they do not have now then it w it could possibly sell Obviously the risk is there Too expensive they are not going to buy But I think there is one other thing interesting two things that are interesting is that from the fifteen to thirtyfive yearold group which always spends more money on trendy new things speech recognition is requested And we are talking between seventyfive to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote Obviously we can not make a remote into a computer but maybe simple commands I do not know louder softer on off That might be a possibility even though it costs more to be the first on the market to produce this Thirtyfive percent say they are too difficult to use So we have to figure out a way of making it more user friendly fifty percent say they can not find the remote half the time So maybe one word speech recognition commands say remote and there is a beep beep beep and they can find it through you know ten tons of newspapers magazines whatever you have at home But in the cost that the management is looking for that is not going to be possible But if it is trendy if it is fancy it is got some colour to it if it is very easy easy to use if it is got simple remote speech remote control like I said louder softer change channel on off remote it goes beep beep I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset because I can not turn the TV on So we are going to have to look at it in a in this global idea with the ideas of the industrial design,"Marketing believed this feature would improve the market competitiveness of this product based on a conducted survey on user requirement. One the one hand, 80% of the 15-35 year-old group are willing to spend more money for trendy new products. 75% - 90% of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on a remote even though it is of higher price. On the other hand, half of the users said the remote control got lost easily and most of the time were hard to find. With speech recognition, however, this problem could be solved." "Industrial Designer: so that you have enough juice to do all these fancy things User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition it is a great feature but if you are watching TV there is a lot of ambient sound and it is words It is not just you know noises like something hitting It is actual speech so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the TV speech and the the users speech Otherwise you can say remote But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing all of a sudden you have someone in a movie saying off and your screen dies because they have triggered the remote control and it is turned off your TV So I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems then it would be a really good marketing gimmick But I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation Marketing: Because tha w with speech recognition th I am not that good at that idea but th if it is a oneword recognition because I know with telephones and cars and things I have seen in the States a friend of mine says call Mom and it calls up Mom","User Interface found this feature great, but he noticed that the ambient sound coming from television would confuse the speech recognition and might accidentally trigger the remote control. User Interface pointed out that Industrial Designer had to make sure the speech recognizer would be good enough to filter out the television speech and recognize only the user's voice. He believed that this feature, once successfully achieved, would make the product popular on the market." Industrial Designer: So well I I figured we should identify some user requirements and from my experience I want to and from research I did the the device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button you can not can not have like waffling on this point you know Really have It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them So I also since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product thought we better look at things that are popular and ex go beyond those and as I said in the first meeting and then we might want to talk eventually about the materials that are appropriate to use in in the construction especially in the the the outside of the product so that it gives the appearance and it is reliable and so forth I did a little history on the the remote controls and when they were invented and so forth so I guess this guy Zenith created the Flashmatic which I kind of like the idea because it made me think of maybe the remote control made a big flash when you turn the TV on and off that might be interesting And so it was highly directional flash light that you could turn the picture on and off and the sound on and off and change channels c so I think those are still requirements we have today fifty years later And it was really a pioneering innovation but it was sensitive to the sun so that it would get would start off by the you would get it would easily because problems So I in addition to looking at the the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where mm they represent examples that are available today which I think the one in the middle is r really something to keep in mind It would be easy to find And it would y you would you could throw it at things if if the TV did not turn on and off you could use it for something else And since I am not really Industrial Designer I did not really know what to do with this slide But I just took some different schematics and I put them into this and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board I do not know why we were asked to do this So personal preferences I think we could I I am really thinking outside the box here and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size a remote control that changes in size depending on the user preference So something that is very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it I think it could either be you could go either one extreme be very colourful or you could make it clear and kind of blend in with things so you did not have to have a problem with the th the decoration of the of the users home I think it needs to be waterproof because sometimes they fall into cups and you know it might be out by the swimming pool or something like that if you mi one of one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it is done its job or not because half the time I keep pushing on the remote control and I do not know if it is actually understood my message so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue And course I never want to replace the battery So that is those are my f preferences and that is my presentation,"Industrial Designer suggested that the remote control needed to be able to turn the television on and off, control the volume and the menu, change channels, both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing. As for the material used for the construction of the outer case, it needed to be not only flexible and inflatable, but also waterproof. The product itself would be better if it could change in size depending on user preference. In addition, the remote control should be able to respond to the user by sending out an oral cue in order to show that it understood your message correctly." "User Interface: and that is fine So basically the method that we usually use in the user interface design is that we need to look at what people like and what people do not like about existing products So in our case existing remote controls And then what the good ideas are and what the bad ideas are and why they are bad and good which is not always as obvious We seem to have intuitions about why things are good or things are bad but when you look technically at how it works sometimes that is not the case Then we need to decide what functionalities we really want to keep because that will feed into both Eds work and Christines work and then what the remote control should look like obviously once we have got a good idea of what the functionalities are So in terms of the functionalities that we need you obviously need to be able to turn the TV on and off You need to change channels both by directly going to a specific channel or by channel surfing You need to be able to control the volume and then control any menus on the TV to regulate contrast or whatever So the problems that people have expressed is that there is too many buttons on remote controls in general The buttons it is not clear what they are supposed to do often you need to know specific button sequences to get certain functionalities done which you do not necessarily always remember especially if it is a functionality that you do not use very often And that the buttons are too small So here we have got two examples where here on the lefthand side you can see a remote control that has lots and lots of buttons The buttons in a lot of cases are tiny they are hard to see and they are labelled but the labels do not necessarily tell you too much Whereas on the other side you have a much simpler remote control that I think basically has the minimum functionalities that are needed And it sort of looks simpler and just less imposing when you first look at it So I would be inclined to go sort of towards this in terms of design rather than this And if there is specific functionalities that require more buttons then we can figure out how to do it with existing buttons So my personal preferences are to keep the number of buttons to a limit or to a minimum sorry make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed so like the on button being really obvious one the channel changing and the volume and to keep the design basically sleek and simple Which I think ties into what Christine and Ed have both said fairly reasonably so that is pretty much it an I do not know if you guys have any questions or Industrial Designer: Oh it is seems very understandable Clearly your research and and ours heading in the same direction and the only thing that I saw missing from your your research that we found was this ability to find the doggone thing when you need it So you know but that is That is why we are all here at the table so that if we think of it and our research indicates certain things and w we it is complementary I also think that th f the the feel of it is when you hold it is something that was expressed more in in in in my design and that is logical and normal because those are the parameters that an Industrial Designers more thinking about th th the look and the feel User Interface: Oh that is definitely a very important factor especially to users who are going to be buying the thing and then using it almost on an daily basis in a lot of cases I think Industrial Designer: First Yep Mmhmm so I do not have any questions Sounds good","Based on user perspective feedback, User Interface pointed out that the buttons on remote controls are generally too many and too small. Even though they were sometimes labeled, it was still not clear for the users to tell what each button was supposed to do. Given this, User Interface preferred to keep the number of buttons to a minimum and make frequently used buttons bigger and more strategically placed. He believed a simpler design would make the product less imposing." "Project Manager: let me interrupt you if you can add other facility other feature like unbreakable because especially today you know you have the family and the kids and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and Industrial Designer: Run over it with a car Project Manager: Yes so if you can add the feature for your fabric whatever in your outline design with unbreakable I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product if I am not wrong Maybe you can add it in that Industrial Designer: Good idea Good idea I will I will Yes very good","Given the fact that for families with children, remote controls were always played or even thrown by kids, Project Manager would prefer the material used in the construction of the product, especially on the outside, to be unbreakable. Project Manager also suggested that the product should be slim and simple. On top of that, it would be better if the remote control could be universal to use for any kind of television." "Industrial Designer: so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please open I am participant two so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control Now Project Manager: this is what we have decided in the last meeting But if we use battery Industrial Designer: b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I did not fou we did not decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote So it is a point to discuss Then the case material we have also several choices like wood rubber titanium or latex But well it is not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view Concerning the interface we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so And this is the last point the choice of chips So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi will not work in a cluttered environment So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper And s so we can move to the next slide User Interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? Industrial Designer: Well i i it is it is the the shape of the of the remote User Interface: So it is it is not Industrial Designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the User Interface: Yo l When you hold on it it is comfortable to hold Industrial Designer: It is more confog f comfortable that if these it is completely flat User Interface: And the battery is it kind of a rechargeable or it does not matter ? Industrial Designer: the that is the point The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the User Interface: That that is what it means by kinetic Industrial Designer: and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the mm well the remote will accumulate energy But I d I do not know it is if it is feasible because I do not know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy User Interface: Mm Mm We we might check with our R and D department to see if they have this product ready for market Industrial Designer: And and so can you go to the next slide please So and that is that summarize well what I have said So you are right we can see in our R and D if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy User Interface: So I keep in touch with the R and D department Industrial Designer: I take care it is all right User Interface: So the titanium case is the normal case that I will show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not Because I am not very sure plastic titanium or whatever There is another point I want to make is that the well you have seen them I le na my presentation that I point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use maybe n","The team talked about using a battery on the remote control and discussed different types of energy, they would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy. As to the shape of the remote control, there should be a curve which would fit into users' hands when they grab the remote control. They discussed material used to design the case of remote control, such as plastic or titanium, but they were still discussing which one should be used." "Industrial Designer: so the first thing I have done is to to made a review together with the manufactural department and have which components was available to build a remote control So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy hand dynamo and kinetic well kinetic technique to to store the energy We also we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control Now Project Manager: this is what we have decided in the last meeting But if we use battery Industrial Designer: b f well I meant by by battery I meant I will not have a a wire between the remote control and the energy source but I did not fou we did not decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote So it is a point to discuss Then the case material we have also several choices like wood rubber titanium or latex But well it is not a a re well a real issue for the from the technical point of view Concerning the interface we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons much more complicated but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so And this is the last point the choice of chips So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic energy collection is the is the better way to provide energy because I think solar energy wi will not work in a cluttered environment So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper And s so we can move to the next slide User Interface: What is this single curved what does it mean ? Industrial Designer: Well i i it is it is the the shape of the of the remote User Interface: So it is it is not Industrial Designer: You you will have the well the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the User Interface: Yo l When you hold on it it is comfortable to hold Industrial Designer: It is more confog f comfortable that if these it is completely flat User Interface: And the battery is it kind of a rechargeable or it does not matter ? Industrial Designer: the that is the point The kinetic one is y you can recharge by the User Interface: That that is what it means by kinetic Industrial Designer: and by well by just by moving the ar your arm the mm well the remote will accumulate energy But I d I do not know it is if it is feasible because I do not know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote all the necessary energy User Interface: Mm Mm We we might check with our R and D department to see if they have this product ready for market Industrial Designer: And and so can you go to the next slide please So and that is that summarize well what I have said So you are right we can see in our R and D if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy User Interface: So I keep in touch with the R and D department Industrial Designer: I take care it is all right","The team could choose from the basic battery, kinetic battery and solar energy. Solar energy would not work in a cluttered environment. Kinetic battery was the one people could recharge by themselves. The team would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy." Industrial Designer: So so I think we can start with these two main things For the case well I think that titanium is is a good choice because it is trendy and it is it is well it is modern and user are are are mm will be very happy to have a a a nice remote For the interface I think that we can ach achieve all the desired functionalities by s just using rubber buttons simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are well cheaper,Titanium case was trendy and modern. Users would be happy with it. But the team was still not very sure about the material of the case. "Marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes And we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions And we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design So seventy percent of the users they find their remote controls very ugly they do not find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything And eighty percent of the people they are always l I mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy And the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user And seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot And fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they are not used most of the times So this were the findings which we found And also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls Most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the TV And by the time they found the remote control the program is finished So they are frustrated a lot And if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it So you can just see the percentage fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it is quite difficult to learn if it is too complex So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be the solution for them We should have an LCD on the rem remote control Industrial Designer: Well mm w well I I I do not really see the advantage of having LCD on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and display on the screen of course it is fancy trendy and so on but it is it is expensive to produce and it is not really Marketing: I mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy So if we have a LCD on the remote rather than looking onto the TV you just look into a remote and navigate it It is the same menu as we have saw that iPod remote control Industrial Designer: but when you play with the iPod you do not have a big screen in front of you s Project Manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen User Interface: If you reuse the existing screen we element eliminate the LCD after all the LCD just to display and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful fancy as fancy as the one on the LCD Marketing: I mean this were the points which we got from the market demands Industrial Designer: So I th I I well I think we we can focus on the on the fancy look on the User Interface: More on a fancy design Industrial Designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available but well I think LCD will will make us spend a lot of money for not so big results User Interface: Mm Remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller so the thing is you can find out how much an LCD will cost and then we will decide again Marketing: I mean that should be found out by the Industrial Designers User Interface: maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time Is i if i Industrial Designer: So price of LCD display Marketing: And it is always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls User Interface: And also the cost for the speech recognition Ask our R and D department Project Manager: it is just for small vocabulary We it is not Marketing: it is o only for a limited vocabulary say eighty commands or so User Interface: And also the scroller button how much will it cost Industrial Designer: And Well compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button Marketing: Mm the scroll button from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button Because they they just they are just frightened to use the scrollings or help button Industrial Designer: I I I think that well as we have seen in the in the presentation well about fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button User Interface: Do not use the buttons Industrial Designer: so I think to have five simple button is sufficient for our functionality Project Manager: It does not mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important But they are just less used compar Marketing: They are not used much Industrial Designer: But the the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the TV screen like a a list of function and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate User Interface: So so the at most more power Project Manager: Or maybe we can you or maybe we can make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others Industrial Designer: But if i i if we if we could have a a a display g a user interface that is very complete on the TV screen I think that just five buttons are sufficient one to go up left right down and enter and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that You do not have to to switch to a channel to another Marketing: Or it could be like this as the people say if they have a LCD on the remote not on the television Because when you have the LCD onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background we are most focused on the commands So if you have then LCD in the remote you just have a menu and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu in the LCD displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume then the program then the brightness contrast and all the stuff Industrial Designer: but if you look at the LCD you you do not look at the TV screen Marketing: And accordingly you can just increase or decrease Industrial Designer: so i i it is not really worth to get to have the image if you do not look at so Project Manager: And I think it is increases the cost of the the remote control if you use LCD I Marketing: that has to be checked out User Interface: I think that there is no contradiction here because if there are few buttons you do not have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are so if you want to control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button and the same for the volume and the channel if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel just tell your channel and then you do not even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for LCD with the help of speech recogniser you can Marketing: I mean better if we could just check all the cost with LCD and also with the speech recognition And then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case And the third problem was to find the remote control Always so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes Industrial Designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find and when the remote control hears fine well just to make him beep or t Project Manager: You will listen to a peep special peep Marketing: that is right that is exactly what I mean by voice commander Or it could be also something like this it is always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control so we have some one charger there and whenever we do not use the remote control we put it in the charger User Interface: Put it back at the charge Marketing: And when we are using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere in the charger we have a small button and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps wherever it is Industrial Designer: And that is a good idea that is simple like in phones Marketing: I mean it doe it also does not require a voice command Project Manager: But you do not you do not have to move the the charger Marketing: because there are problems with a voice command Project Manager: You have to keep it Marketing: I mean charger would be fixed because it is always with electricity plugged Industrial Designer: if there if there there is nuff not enough battery Also and the remote is lost User Interface: Mm There is mm Mm That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off TV button the off button the remote there be s instruction on the screen please charge charge me You never get it lost because every time you are off the computer the TV you are asked the the command the TV com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger Marketing: It is an good reminder User Interface: So you will never get lost Project Manager: Maybe for some people lazy people User Interface: because everything is programmed inside So it is it is it is all about strategy y Marketing: And of course the final point is a fancy look As we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by Norman they were not fancy I mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons I think we should have something it Industrial Designer: Well the last one with the with the two parts was original so User Interface: With two two two parts controller Marketing: I mean I mean I mean you see if it is like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it you can not avoid him But you can have an button for child lock So just by pressing the button with some code you t you put a lock onto the remote so that he can not use even Industrial Designer: Well we can think about having on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the TV you can well write a code or choose a category if it is kids things like that Project Manager: Or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just just push kids button so it is automatically User Interface: Mm these are probl Mm Mm Mm Marketing: I think these other four points they are the market demands and so it is for the user interface design and industrial design to just think Industrial Designer: So for my part I will check the prices the the prices difference of what to use where to use and s and so on Marketing: I think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th these could be included User Interface: Mm I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by TV programs you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them If numbers they are easy but if name the channel by by name Industrial Designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the TV you have a list with with well with sports program playing now Marketing: No we have a problem there You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something and if the score comes twenty four thirty five you have just say twenty five and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers Industrial Designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the TV so Marketing: I mean the the you just check all the probability that saying TV twenty five and just ordinary twenty five Ordinary twenty five you almost there is a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent and TV twenty five I do not know it will be round about one or two percent So it is better to have some prefix before the number User Interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers You say numbe channel number five of the TV correspond to something else in the channel So some people may want to say I want to see this channel Marketing: That will be too big And it will be difficult for the vocabulary also User Interface: Check with the v R and D department the capability of recogniser Project Manager: It is difficult to to just say the the name of the channel It will be difficult to say just the name of the channel Because you have to s t a ch User Interface: Well it is convenient for the user Project Manager: but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary Marketing: Als might be you just forgot the channel name you kno only know the number Project Manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary User Interface: I I think that I have mm mm I think there is another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example then what you can do is that the you can make the TV screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel so let us say it is a four by four matrix of the images so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time you just use the control button you just you you just choose the the option you want and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel So Project Manager: Or let us the user create his own vocabulary of channel User Interface: Mm So you you do not use the speech recogniser in that way Project Manager: No Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself By associating each channel with the name or Industrial Designer: I I also think about another problem if if there is more than one person who is watching TV Project Manager: And for each one has his own Industrial Designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time Project Manager: Or you have to s User Interface: I want to watch this I want to watch that Industrial Designer: so it is a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching TV and say oh TV thirty and just run s Marketing: A and in the same lines we would have a one more problem If we are using the television in the different environments say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company So I think we should specify some prerequirements if we want to use a voice commands say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something Project Manager: Or we can switch on or switch off the the special Marketing: that is right that should be an option Industrial Designer: that is well I think that is a good a good option because it is simple and simple to implement also so Marketing: I think these are the practical problems So we need to take care of them in the design Project Manager: Maybe we will discuss them in next meeting",The team discussed a marketing survey about remote controls. They agreed to design remote controls with more fancy outlook and less buttons. The remote control should be easier to find and less complicated so users take less time to learn the functionality of it and the team discussed how to implement this function. They also talked about voice recognition and the scroller button. Then they agreed to design a child lock. Users could open child lock by pressing the button with some code. At last they discussed the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser. They decided to put numbers and words in the vocabulary. But they realized that it would be a challenge to make the speech recogniser distinguish between different voices and deal with noises and they would keep on discussing it. "Marketing: And the third problem was to find the remote control Always so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes Industrial Designer: Well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like find and when the remote control hears fine well just to make him beep or t Project Manager: You will listen to a peep special peep Marketing: that is right that is exactly what I mean by voice commander Or it could be also something like this it is always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control so we have some one charger there and whenever we do not use the remote control we put it in the charger User Interface: Put it back at the charge Marketing: And when we are using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere in the charger we have a small button and just by pressing the button in the charger the remote control beeps wherever it is Industrial Designer: And that is a good idea that is simple like in phones Marketing: I mean it doe it also does not require a voice command Project Manager: But you do not you do not have to move the the charger Marketing: because there are problems with a voice command Project Manager: You have to keep it Marketing: I mean charger would be fixed because it is always with electricity plugged Industrial Designer: if there if there there is nuff not enough battery Also and the remote is lost User Interface: Mm There is mm Mm That we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off TV button the off button the remote there be s instruction on the screen please charge charge me You never get it lost because every time you are off the computer the TV you are asked the the command the TV com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger Marketing: It is an good reminder User Interface: So you will never get lost Project Manager: Maybe for some people lazy people User Interface: because everything is programmed inside So it is it is it is all about strategy y","The team decided that the remote control would beep if it got lost. Also, the remote control would be put on the fixed charger if users did not use it, so it would be hard to get lost." "User Interface: Mm I think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser because if you want say we can sort by channels or sort by TV programs you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them If numbers they are easy but if name the channel by by name Industrial Designer: Well I think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like sports and then on the TV you have a list with with well with sports program playing now Marketing: No we have a problem there You see if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on basketball score or something and if the score comes twenty four thirty five you have just say twenty five and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five So I think there should be a prefix to some numbers Industrial Designer: Well but well e every possible word has a probability to come about of the TV so Marketing: I mean the the you just check all the probability that saying TV twenty five and just ordinary twenty five Ordinary twenty five you almost there is a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent and TV twenty five I do not know it will be round about one or two percent So it is better to have some prefix before the number User Interface: But I I I think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers You say numbe channel number five of the TV correspond to something else in the channel So some people may want to say I want to see this channel Marketing: That will be too big And it will be difficult for the vocabulary also User Interface: Check with the v R and D department the capability of recogniser Project Manager: It is difficult to to just say the the name of the channel It will be difficult to say just the name of the channel Because you have to s t a ch User Interface: Well it is convenient for the user Project Manager: but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary Marketing: Als might be you just forgot the channel name you kno only know the number Project Manager: Or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary User Interface: I I think that I have mm mm I think there is another way you can do is that you can if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example then what you can do is that the you can make the TV screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel so let us say it is a four by four matrix of the images so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time you just use the control button you just you you just choose the the option you want and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel So Project Manager: Or let us the user create his own vocabulary of channel User Interface: Mm So you you do not use the speech recogniser in that way Project Manager: No Just you have in the beginning you have t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself By associating each channel with the name or Industrial Designer: I I also think about another problem if if there is more than one person who is watching TV Project Manager: And for each one has his own Industrial Designer: the s well the the speech r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two Because I remember when I was a young child with my sister we we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time Project Manager: Or you have to s User Interface: I want to watch this I want to watch that Industrial Designer: so it is a pr it could be a problem if if well if someone passes by when you are watching TV and say oh TV thirty and just run s Marketing: A and in the same lines we would have a one more problem If we are using the television in the different environments say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work that would bring a bad name bad reputation for our company So I think we should specify some prerequirements if we want to use a voice commands say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something Project Manager: Or we can switch on or switch off the the special Marketing: that is right that should be an option Industrial Designer: that is well I think that is a good a good option because it is simple and simple to implement also so Marketing: I think these are the practical problems So we need to take care of them in the design Project Manager: Maybe we will discuss them in next meeting",Industrial Designer proposed that the team could have just numbers for channels and the speech recogniser should be able to distinguish between different voices and deal with noises. "Project Manager: Oh that It will not does not Maybe we should start with the the technical functions Industrial Designer: how can I get this on the whiteboard ? Project Manager: Well it is you dumped the file in the in the sh in the project document folder You have already done that ? Well let us close this one We will just open a new one well Yes Uhoh New thing Oh I have to say something due to some technical problems I have not digitized the last the meeting minutes But I will make sure that happens next time And I will get this one in digital form too Industrial Designer: Kay we are going to talk about working design the method of the remote control is electrical energy it activates a chip in the remote It is an electrical circuit which compose messages in the form of infrared signals to control the television Mm it is a nowadays very known a known technology the known technology can make a cost very low it is a wild a wide sale of remote controls in the world And and the components are very very cheap diodes bat batteries and LED lights they are needed and they are everywhere available again it is a fair price It is a common technology like I told the circuit board it is the most important part of the remote control we can use for that fibreglass with copper wires it is it is can be made as fast as printing paper It is it is all very they are making it all the time and it is not very specialised technology I have not come to here but I have got some images of remote controls They were not very trendy or just just a remote control like everyone knows So I do not know why I should put it here Project Manager: But it is the technical side of the remote control Industrial Designer: Yes but I have not made it because of the time Project Manager: Oh Well we will we will have to skip that part then But you do not think it is a problem to design the technical part of the remote control ? It is going to be easy ? User Interface: But nothing restricted for user interface ? Industrial Designer: no it is it is just a part of a known technology Remote control is nothing special nowadays Project Manager: R regardless of what type of functions we want to implement Does not really matter Industrial Designer: I do not think so because of the all the televisions there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions but is it useful to put them on a on a standard remote ? Project Manager: Well we will see We will see later on User Interface: Well the technical functions well I do not know if you got the same pictures as I got but I got these two and I think they are we have to focus on the one hand the expert view or the novice user th I think it is it is very much depending on the user requirements I do not s know who is doing t Project Manager: Well will there be some user requirements later on ? The ones I I have received from the account manager User Interface: but it I think that is very important to watch what kind of functions there we want to put in a remote control Project Manager: Well we will keep this in mind and then discuss it later on User Interface: well y we can put functions in it when when we get the user requirements and we can update it Project Manager: Uhhuh but this real this big d distinction between this type of remote we should we should choose one we should not compromise but really choose for expert viewer or novice v ? Well what that is what you want trying to say User Interface: Well w if you want try a a a huge market if you want to reach a huge market like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user But I do not know It is it is really depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n in use Project Manager: well some of these Well some of that will but i but it will be more clear when we come to the you some of the new requirements User Interface: well there are l at least basic functions like just th the channels one till nine on and off switch which must be clear with a red button or something like that most standard have volume of course and a mute function and of course the next and previous channel I think that is just basic what we need And from that on we can user requirements what we need more I just I thought Joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets and I do not know if there are any if you put more functions more buttons maybe it is com becoming less trendy or something like that M you can just you can k Marketing: I have not really found a conclusion like that User Interface: you can keep it in mind that I do not know I th I thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier more trendier design I think I think well that is all I have to say I think Project Manager: Well then the Marketing expert can tell us something about the current market Marketing: It is alright Alright I have done some research for functional requirements yes The working method there were hundred w h one hundred people how do you say f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also filled out a questionnaire with a few questions I have lined them up here ask whether common remote control looks good or not about willingness to spend money on remote control about zapping behaviour and and stuff like that I have found some interesting things We do we do got a market three out of four people claim m to find remote controls ugly So if we make a trendy design we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market which you can reach three out of four users zaps a lot as I quoted here from the results Zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour That is quite a lot relevant options are of course power buttons Although only used once per hour channel selection volume and buttons for text and the more other functions like audio settings video settings sound settings are not said to be very important and very much used Furthermore fifty percent says they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control That does not say we got we can leave ninety percent off But it sure says we should not make it too complicated Fifty percent also claims to have lost a remote control very often in the room And an important thing here the most important customers which is over seventy percent of our market is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old And elderly people our market are less interested in nice features but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls So what I was thinking oh wrong side We should not implement too much features on on our remote control because elderly people will get th lost Group features for a higher usability what I was claiming in the previous meeting all the settings about audio settings video settings and channel settings which are not very often used we could group them on one button and make them accessible in one menu button or whatever because they are used very rarely and well it there are a lot of options there so we can really make how do you say we can spare at buttons over there And if you want to implement VCR and DVD options group them in the button not too Small buttons so they will not be very how do you say Yes will not be very present thank you And a trendy look well although seventy percent of the market is consists of elderly people who do not really care for trendy looks or whatever I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent That was kind of what I found Project Manager: Well then we I am going to show you some of the new project requirements and then we going to discuss on what features we find important well some of the new requirements make some of your findings quite irrelevant I think Because s decided to put They have decide to put two additional requirements forward Well now I see four That is kind of strange Well they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet Well I think that may be so but well we can not just leave the teletext button off It is impossible I think Marketing: No I agree I agree Project Manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button you know like on and off and do not make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or You know it is just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext but not to play with it that much So we have to think of that The remote control should only be used for television Otherwise the project becomes more complex which endangers the time t t ma the time to market So maybe we should leave all DVD and VCR related features off completely I do not know I think that that is what they are trying to say our current customers are within the age group of forty plus New products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty So you talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested But well they are not relevant because we are aiming at a younger Marketing: I do not really agree actually to be honest It is a very small market which we will approach then if we want to reach customers younger than forty It is only like thirty percent of the total market Project Manager: but it is it is is a dif it is a fact that the th th that bigger market you are talking about we already cover that Our company already sells remote control to the older people but we we also want you know a new customer group That is the one we have not covered yet So I think that is what the problem is We have not got remote controls for Marketing: Maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit Project Manager: I think so Maybe if it is Marketing: Not too much then bu alright Project Manager: no no but I think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants So maybe we can make a remote control that is primarily interesting for the younger group but is not that bad for an older person either our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products Our products corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design something else nice to know User Interface: But what is our slogan ? Project Manager: Sorry ? you will have to look that up Marketing: I will have a look Project Manager: I think it is something about the Marketing: We put the fashion in electronics Project Manager: Oh I thought it w might be let us make things better or something but well let us go back to the the agenda So we have now had to the three presentations We know about the new project requirements That means we can well d discuss on the remote control functions Well if I can make a start I think it is becoming more clear what kind of remote control it is going to be and I already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it I think we are we are looking for some we we are looking for a really simple remote control with only basic TV functions Y well that Marketing: Well to be honest if our aim group is till forty not older than forty maybe that is not very we do not really need to have a simple remote control I think we can implement more functions then because basically the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology and therefore will be a more Project Manager: M that is why well a lot of the use the requirements the the account manager sent me I think they are are c are contradicting each other because they want a simpler design and no other s functions than just TV but they s do aim at a younger User Interface: but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are not used So why should j we put this function in ? I think more I think people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than more functions Project Manager: But I think you we can make some discuss distinctions in what kin in the know th th in functions you have Y Well you have different kind of equipment in your room like a t TV and a DVD player You can know you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the TV set on your remote control with the with the you know audio settings and v screen settings We do not want that I think that was that became clear We do not want But w maybe we should put some func I know that the younger people will most likely have a DVD player they want to you know they want to User Interface: d but th the functions are not in the remote control we are making Project Manager: No th th the user requirements of the the The new project requirements told us not to But maybe w I think we maybe should well we should put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it But just the basic functions Maybe like rewind and wind or n what d what do you guys think ? Industrial Designer: But you can put them under the same button Marketing: Not much more than that Project Manager: if as far as possible Marketing: Yep Or we can you you we could put them behind the flipflap or whatever Project Manager: But what do you think ? Do th should we implement features that or functions that to control other devices ? No you do not think so ? User Interface: No new requirements say no Project Manager: the new requirements say so Industrial Designer: But you can put a play and stop and and rewind Project Manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do not support the particular device as well as their their own remote control You know a lot of DVD players have some tricky settings with User Interface: I i if it is too simple th they will not use the remote control they use their own th th with lot more functions Project Manager: Yep exactly That is that is wha Marketing: But but for for example VCR that is better example in this case I think on a remote control for television you do not need to be able to programme the VCR to start recording at three PM or whatever Project Manager: No no you do not No no you do not need it No no Marketing: just play stop rewind and fast forward Project Manager: but we have to think w we have to think DVD I th I guess so but from my experience it is kind of a lot of DVD players you know like forwarding goes differently you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed It is c sometimes a bit difficult Maybe if we just leave the DVD functional m Well I was thinking about putting it in but concerning the project requirements and what you just said I think we m should focus on the TV then User Interface: but just keep it simple and look more at th Project Manager: And and it is just an a complimentary remote and not a universal one If you want to keep it simple you can make a universal remote User Interface: No It is only for television So Project Manager: It is just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table Industrial Designer: Yes but there are there are Project Manager: and it is just for when you you you jump on the couch you pick up the the the nice remote the simple one just to put on the television nothing more Industrial Designer: But how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? There are a dozen of dozens of of remote controls that have Project Manager: we we will make w this one trendy User Interface: The user interface is easy Project Manager: Well we we will come to that but ju first on the on the functions So we should put zap buttons on it also numbers to to go to the specific channels User Interface: And the basic basic functions It is too much integrated in the other Project Manager: a t a teletext button should be there But just one big teletext button on and off Marketing: and maybe two or three other options but not nothing more than that I think stop function is very useful If you have a a page which consists of more pages and you are not a very quick reader then I think it is very irritating if the next page shows up but Project Manager: but I think that becomes too difficult it is not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then Marketing: Well I use it very regularly the action I re I use it quite often Project Manager: but maybe you s maybe y you do but I have never heard of it in the first place And we have to well t and t and teletext is becoming outdated We just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably I do not know I think that that is kin getting too complex for our remote I do not know what you th guys think User Interface: I it is Sunday I always use it for the for the soccer Project Manager: but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? Or do you think it I think it is a kind of very rare and special function User Interface: Well when you when you look for example a couple of weeks ago I looked at the for the flights and there are a lot of flights in one page so if if th Project Manager: it goes but that is kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now That is why it was said in the in the use in the r new requirements Industrial Designer: Yes but you could put on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to to access all the same pages If you have seven pages you can go up and down Project Manager: lots of new televisions can store pages you know and then you can just skip manually through them using I think we should just put one teletext button on it Then we meet the new requirements we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design I guess well what functions do we have to decide on ? Or do we I do not know if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want We have the zap and the volume Should we do m make them very big ? The the the zap button D d Marketing: I think the plus and the minus button should be quite present Project Manager: Th that is that is that is considered to be trendy also Or maybe you should place them on a in a special way ? Industrial Designer: Maybe we can make a kind of a joystick Project Manager: something or somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be and quick You have to use it very quickly Marketing: If you grab the remote your hands should be on top of the plus Project Manager: and it the buttons should make it possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace Oh what should we decide on then ? I think in a in a case of this simple remote control the technical aspects which were not worked out already but it w should not be a problem then Industrial Designer: No it is o just signals and the television d does the rest Project Manager: No but we do not have to when we do not want to control other devices I think it makes it even more simple User Interface: maybe we the batteries maybe If you use large batteries or small batter batteries Project Manager: I think that we should use d not not the b the watch kind th the most Well it has to be simple and I wi Which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house you know","Industrial Designer believed that the working design did not involve specialised technologies and therefore would not cost much or be difficult. User Interface questioned this statement by arguing that the technical functions depended on the user requirements. The team discussed this point and then agreed that the remote control should be for novice users. Later on, Project Manager suggested going through market research results delivered by Marketing and the new requirements shown by themself. These clarified the directions of design and then the team agreed to include simple functions, certain large buttons, etc." "Marketing: It is alright Alright I have done some research for functional requirements yes The working method there were hundred w h one hundred people how do you say f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also filled out a questionnaire with a few questions I have lined them up here ask whether common remote control looks good or not about willingness to spend money on remote control about zapping behaviour and and stuff like that I have found some interesting things We do we do got a market three out of four people claim m to find remote controls ugly So if we make a trendy design we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market which you can reach three out of four users zaps a lot as I quoted here from the results Zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour That is quite a lot relevant options are of course power buttons Although only used once per hour channel selection volume and buttons for text and the more other functions like audio settings video settings sound settings are not said to be very important and very much used Furthermore fifty percent says they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control That does not say we got we can leave ninety percent off But it sure says we should not make it too complicated Fifty percent also claims to have lost a remote control very often in the room And an important thing here the most important customers which is over seventy percent of our market is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old And elderly people our market are less interested in nice features but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls So what I was thinking oh wrong side We should not implement too much features on on our remote control because elderly people will get th lost Group features for a higher usability what I was claiming in the previous meeting all the settings about audio settings video settings and channel settings which are not very often used we could group them on one button and make them accessible in one menu button or whatever because they are used very rarely and well it there are a lot of options there so we can really make how do you say we can spare at buttons over there And if you want to implement VCR and DVD options group them in the button not too Small buttons so they will not be very how do you say Yes will not be very present thank you And a trendy look well although seventy percent of the market is consists of elderly people who do not really care for trendy looks or whatever I guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent That was kind of what I found Project Manager: Well then we I am going to show you some of the new project requirements and then we going to discuss on what features we find important well some of the new requirements make some of your findings quite irrelevant I think Because s decided to put They have decide to put two additional requirements forward Well now I see four That is kind of strange Well they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet Well I think that may be so but well we can not just leave the teletext button off It is impossible I think Marketing: No I agree I agree Project Manager: So the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button you know like on and off and do not make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or You know it is just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext but not to play with it that much So we have to think of that The remote control should only be used for television Otherwise the project becomes more complex which endangers the time t t ma the time to market So maybe we should leave all DVD and VCR related features off completely I do not know I think that that is what they are trying to say our current customers are within the age group of forty plus New products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty So you talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested But well they are not relevant because we are aiming at a younger Marketing: I do not really agree actually to be honest It is a very small market which we will approach then if we want to reach customers younger than forty It is only like thirty percent of the total market Project Manager: but it is it is is a dif it is a fact that the th th that bigger market you are talking about we already cover that Our company already sells remote control to the older people but we we also want you know a new customer group That is the one we have not covered yet So I think that is what the problem is We have not got remote controls for","Project Manager considered it necessary to focus on customers younger aged below forty because they have potential needs to be fulfilled. By contrast, Marketing believed that the project should target a large group rather than only people younger than forty." "Marketing: Well to be honest if our aim group is till forty not older than forty maybe that is not very we do not really need to have a simple remote control I think we can implement more functions then because basically the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology and therefore will be a more Project Manager: M that is why well a lot of the use the requirements the the account manager sent me I think they are are c are contradicting each other because they want a simpler design and no other s functions than just TV but they s do aim at a younger User Interface: but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are not used So why should j we put this function in ? I think more I think people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than more functions",User Interface did not like the idea of putting lots of functions in the remote control because younger people were looking for a trendy look rather than multiple functions. "Project Manager: But that is that is Do you have you have you think about tha thought about that ? How we can what the extra touch can be Do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or Well it was something about how we lose them Maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing Marketing: I think that is n that is more for a for an age range or ten to twelve or whatever User Interface: To find him That is maybe Project Manager: I do not know I do not know Nah a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things It w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone and it is i has something nice Marketing: that is good one yep Project Manager: Or maybe it w should have a big light that can flash or something on it or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener Maybe it contains some feature that you do not normally link to a remote control I think it is very impor because we are going to make such a basic remote control we have to do something to make it special It is going to cost twenty five Euros Marketing: Ye I think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually because television and beer is not a rare combination Project Manager: but the well it is already been done Nah that is true But and I think it is going to be very it has to be sturdy or something so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something it has to be used something special and you really it has to you know y not s people when they buy it they have to think well this one lasts for a long time We are really going to use them Not some thing you you throw away next week you know So maybe that is i I think that is when when we decide on these type of functions know basic functions it is very important to find something like this So there is a very important task for you And maybe we can all think about it also for you maybe when t you it is very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy and and and al as in a friend use friendly as well you know So big buttons flashy design and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing Marketing: a swapable front or whatever Project Manager: or just different colours would be I do not know if people also want to spend more money on fronts for their remote control It could be be you never know but But it and I think we have to make it quite big User Interface: Quite big you think ? Industrial Designer: That is to be a formed for your hand Project Manager: So and and also because it is expensive If you want it to be something you know it is ha does not have much functions want to be you do not want to get it l make it Marketing: Yes it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room As I as I said during my presentation fifty percent o Project Manager: Mmhmm And shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table I I think you m might want to put it that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of Marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts of course User Interface: Mm but that is not it is ugly I think Project Manager: but then it is very easy to make it also a rechargeab I do not think that is going to cost much to make it also a recharge function in it Marketing: On the other hand if you do not do it we can also make a nice bay I mean it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it but I think the bay is definitely Project Manager: I think it is a good idea And make it you know we we Well we it is it is not a t a most costly remote control We can save on the on the functions We just put some simple button in make it big and sturdy nothing more and just make s sure there is some noise that it can make or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it that it lights up it is also nice And if you put it away I think it is w we have to we that is it is not a easy market We have to something special And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control and we can not deliver that in r with regards to the functions because we are not going to put Marketing: With eye candy ear candy whatever definitely Project Manager: And then when make it you know nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the standup thing I think I think it is a good idea User Interface: it must be must be a gadget to have Project Manager: Oh if it let us well we will see what is possible concerning the the costs and if it is possible we will do that And we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing And the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something If that is too expensive we will not do that But it would be nice Marketing: It would be nice yes Project Manager: It is the idea I know that batteries last long nowadays And and what people just think about well I will never have to buy any r batteries again so y b because it is very annoying when your battery is empty And you know then when you have not batteries around and probably for two weeks your remo I have experienced that that Marketing: Most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty so yes Project Manager: So easy functions Well we will we will I think we will work that out zapping numbers on it bi User Interface: Or just give a beep when the batterys out or down Project Manager: But it is also annoying because as long as it stays as it ke keeps working you are not very motivated to do something about it Then it beeps all the time and You do not want to have ever have those problems and you will not have if if you have the rechargeable And you do not have to use the unit you can also put it on the side if people do not like it i i in the in the ma Industrial Designer: But you pay for it Project Manager: but it w I mean if if they pay for it because they think oh that is a great idea I am going to use it And when it you know when time goes by and they think well I will never put him in the recharger I think last long enough then they put it on side and they can use it now and then Then when they look get m I I I know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they are seeking for the remote control they want to see something quick and just push the button and th I think it is brilliant Marketing: Bleep bleep bleep oh there it is Project Manager: I have never it is so simple but I have never seen it M maybe we should really do this User Interface: And you can leave it just there Project Manager: now well how much time have we got left ? These clocks are not synched","At first, Project Manager pointed out that the key lied in users' pain point, which was the trouble of losing remote controls. The team then started brainstorming in this direction, coming up with ideas such as a can opener, bouncing pads, big buttons, flashy design, changeable fronts, etc. Later on, Project Manager put forward the idea of having a gadget like a vase to be put on the table, for containing the remote control. This idea then developed into one containing a base that could charge and track the remote control." "Project Manager: that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of Marketing: Well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts of course User Interface: Mm but that is not it is ugly I think Project Manager: but then it is very easy to make it also a rechargeab I do not think that is going to cost much to make it also a recharge function in it Marketing: On the other hand if you do not do it we can also make a nice bay I mean it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it but I think the bay is definitely Project Manager: I think it is a good idea And make it you know we we Well we it is it is not a t a most costly remote control We can save on the on the functions We just put some simple button in make it big and sturdy nothing more and just make s sure there is some noise that it can make or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it that it lights up it is also nice And if you put it away I think it is w we have to we that is it is not a easy market We have to something special And for twenty five Euros people want something remote c special from your mote control and we can not deliver that in r with regards to the functions because we are not going to put Marketing: With eye candy ear candy whatever definitely Project Manager: And then when make it you know nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the standup thing I think I think it is a good idea User Interface: it must be must be a gadget to have Project Manager: Oh if it let us well we will see what is possible concerning the the costs and if it is possible we will do that And we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing And the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something If that is too expensive we will not do that","Project Manager believed that money spent on the rechargeable units was necessary because other elements of the remote control were just basic. In addition, Project Manager thought it would not cost much if the product was produced in Taiwan. However, it was acknowledged that cost could probably be a concern so he/ she decided to only do that if the cost was fair." "Project Manager: that it it it it stands up you have to put it on its So it is like a vase or something you put on a table no no put stuff inside it But it is like like a statue or something Industrial Designer: More like a joystick then Marketing: I see what you mean yep User Interface: It is like you have four phones Something like that Project Manager: but but you also can put it somewhere near the window in Marketing: If you do that but I do not know if that is possible within the production cost of twelve and a half Euros Project Manager: That it is it is fashionable Marketing: I in in the base we could like make a button and if you push it the remote control itself s makes noise That is probably stupid but as I found here fifty percent was it fifty ? Industrial Designer: But that is that is fun for the first time and then the second Marketing: fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control Project Manager: but but when you when it gets lost how can you press the button to make it Marketing: No of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in Project Manager: that is kind of nice Marketing: If an a button in in that Project Manager: And then also you do not even need batteries because you can make it chargeable Marketing: you can ma make rechargeable one Why not Project Manager: that w but the pro No well I think that it might be t p Well nee but we do not Maybe you but we do not know much about production cost but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five Euros on a remote control and it is a basic remote control then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know rechargeable units Marketing: It should only cost twelve and a half Euros of course Aye ? Project Manager: but we would d ma we would do it in Taiwan and So it is not going to be that expen I I think it is a great idea User Interface: It should be possible I think it is a good idea Project Manager: S some kind of be I have never seen that before and you make it be you see it with the mo the mouses nowadays User Interface: To make a base or something ? Industrial Designer: Yes but is that handy ? Project Manager: Well I well it is really ch you can recharge it so you ha never have the battery problem That is one User Interface: It is it is it is it is Project Manager: And you can always find your remote control up User Interface: it is not the purpose to be handy it is Industrial Designer: But but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last two years three years with with t two batteries Project Manager: Well maybe you could when that is when it is too costly you could probably skip the recharger but you will you do need also an also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well you know Does it makes it kind of","To Industrial Designer, remote controls could last a long time with two batteries. Therefore, it might not be necessary or attractive enough to customers in his/ her opinion." "Project Manager: now I hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now I am the Project Manager so I am here to mess things up and tell you some new requirements that is we have got to design a remote which is only suitable for TV that is because it will be too complex and the time to market will be too big if we want to have it for more functions So it has to be simple another point is we have to skip the teletext because in the world of upcoming internet we think teletext is going to be a thing of the past And it is a function we do not need in our remote control internet is also mentioned in a function we can use maybe also on televisions it will be available as well Another one is the customer is forty plus that is the the market we have to to to target because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers this is a bit pity for the Marketing Expert Because he was aiming on the the younger persons So we have to find a market which is above forty plus but which will suit our remote control and the other way round And we have to be very attent in putting the corporate image in our product So it has to be visible in our design in the way our device works And we have to be very clear on this point as well So I suggest let us have a discussion on the control functions Marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? Project Manager: we can see if we can find a way between the functions we want to use and the market we want to reach with our product Marketing: because you are you are saying that teletext is going to be an old feature and it is not going to be used anymore anyway pretty soon And new TVs will have internet access on them But I think if you are targeting people of forty plus the chance that they will have a TV with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim In addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control So I think it is pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it I am pretty much against it Project Manager: Against the no teletext ? Marketing: Besides that I think the market for forty plus is like pretty small But I mean if I s if I see this it is I think we are just going to go for another Project Manager: No I think we can I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons which were also mentioned if we put a lot of effort in those we can make a remote control with just two or three buttons Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we want to reach because it is forty percent of the market And if you look in Holland at the whole generation of forty plus fifty plus it it is the the biggest share of the of the whole population now Marketing: Yes but it is not the biggest part of the market And besides that they are not very critical so I mean they do not really care what the remote control is like They will just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable Project Manager: But do not you think that if we make a remote which is typically made for this market that people think the people think that is the the device I have looked for although I did not realise it So let us try it Marketing: No I think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control People of forty plus I mean they want it to work but as soo as soon as it works it is with them Industrial Designer: I think that if we are If we put our marketing right we can sell this just like I do not know if you have heard about it in the news the the elderly mobile phone ? Project Manager: It is a big success Industrial Designer: if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind we could make tons of money I think Marketing: I have not heard of it Project Manager: I think so as well Industrial Designer: We do not have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality We just change our focus on the project and I think we can we can sell this","Project Manager announced that the remote control ought to be only suitable for TV, and that teletext as an outmoded function should be skipped, while internet access becomes an optional function. Meanwhile, target customers are specified as 40 plus. However, Project Manager's requirements of no teletext and design simplification were effectively challenged and rebutted by Marketing. As a result, the focus on the project was changed from design to functionality." "Marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? Project Manager: we can see if we can find a way between the functions we want to use and the market we want to reach with our product Marketing: because you are you are saying that teletext is going to be an old feature and it is not going to be used anymore anyway pretty soon And new TVs will have internet access on them But I think if you are targeting people of forty plus the chance that they will have a TV with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim In addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control So I think it is pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it I am pretty much against it Project Manager: Against the no teletext ? Marketing: Besides that I think the market for forty plus is like pretty small But I mean if I s if I see this it is I think we are just going to go for another Project Manager: No I think we can","Marketing was strongly against the ''no teletext but internet'' requirement, because he thought there was little chance that customers over 40 would use TVs with internet access in the near future. And he added that teletext was no doubt a key feature for the remote control, especially for the elder generation, and hence should not be ruled out anyway. Consequently, the group agreed to keep teletext and further negotiate with the board." "Project Manager: I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons which were also mentioned if we put a lot of effort in those we can make a remote control with just two or three buttons Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we want to reach because it is forty percent of the market And if you look in Holland at the whole generation of forty plus fifty plus it it is the the biggest share of the of the whole population now Marketing: Yes but it is not the biggest part of the market And besides that they are not very critical so I mean they do not really care what the remote control is like They will just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable Project Manager: But do not you think that if we make a remote which is typically made for this market that people think the people think that is the the device I have looked for although I did not realise it So let us try it Marketing: No I think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control People of forty plus I mean they want it to work but as soo as soon as it works it is with them Industrial Designer: I think that if we are If we put our marketing right we can sell this just like I do not know if you have heard about it in the news the the elderly mobile phone ? Project Manager: It is a big success Industrial Designer: if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind we could make tons of money I think Marketing: I have not heard of it Project Manager: I think so as well Industrial Designer: We do not have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality We just change our focus on the project and I think we can we can sell this","Marketing considered fancy design to be insignificant, as he believed that unlike the younger generation, people of 40 plus were not that particular about appearance and would care more about its functionality instead. Marketing's opinion was subsequently agreed by other team members." "Project Manager: that the new products we are going to make spef specifically design are designed for younger people so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people And I think we have to see what requirements we need for those remote controls Because what you told is the channel selection is important Volume selection power and teletext Marketing: Yes But obviously the board tends to disagree Project Manager: No we we have not voted yet so I think teletext can be can be a function as well But only if if it will not higher the the cost because I do not know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well but I do not think it will be a problem Or is teletext a User Interface: But deaf people need teletext for for subtitles Marketing: I think it would definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext Project Manager: Is anybody really against teletext ? No ? Just that that we just keep the teletext I think that is a good idea as well especially for the subtitles Maybe we can make that another point of advantage in our remote control if we make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles which is instantly on the remote control For elderly people they can think oh I want to have subtitles and they push the button and they get the big subtitles Industrial Designer: that is a good idea Project Manager: so I think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage Functionality should be few buttons you said I think that is very important we have a few buttons So to keep it simple Marketing: But I do not think that is really an issue any more because Well might be User Interface: If it is only for televi Marketing: But I mean it if it is only for TV you are not going to need a lot of buttons anyway You need a one to zero button next channel previous channel volume up volume down and some teletext buttons but User Interface: So we can s we can skip the display Marketing: I think if you if you only l User Interface: so we do not need it Project Manager: But do you need the buttons for one to zero Marketing: Think if you are going to include teletext you do I think many people like to use that Because if you should if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five you do not want to push the next channel button thirty five times Project Manager: No maybe we can implement the scroll button ? Or a joystick like ? There are other ways too Just look if you look at telephones The Sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or Marketing: That is true but I do not think there are many TVs that can switch channels that fast And so you would need like the TV would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it And I do not know if many channels would do have that If many TVs have that Industrial Designer: And besides that it is If we are going to focus on elderly people they will have to adapt They are not used to using scroll buttons So perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout Project Manager: the numbers they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display and if it is too much we can reconsider it But I think there will not be very much buttons Or there do not have to be a lot Marketing: But I do not think I think if you are going to make a remote control only to operate a TV you there is not much you can gain on having as few buttons as possible Because I think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a TV which already only have the minimum number of buttons I do not think there is much to be gained in that area Project Manager: The number of buttons ? I think it is very important in the in the design You can make a very fancy design with putting the buttons on the right places And if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with Marketing: That is true but I think there is simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you are making a remote control only for to operate only the TV Project Manager: To operate only the TV Marketing: Because if you have a a remote control only to operate a TV there is simply not a lot of buttons required There is not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do not have a lot of buttons either So I think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here That would that would cost a a big marketing expedition which was one of the arguments to make it only for the TV because we did not have the time to market a lot Project Manager: So you suggest we could better focus on for example the docking station like other functions Instead of f of less buttons Marketing: Maybe Well I think mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and But I do not think we should spend very much time in that Project Manager: Mm No Do you think the docking station will is allowed in the budget we have ? Industrial Designer: It should be possible yes If it is not too fancy And if the remote stays rather small it should be possible Project Manager: Because I think that is That is a good advantage point as well If we have a fancylooking docking station That is a nice requirement Docking station Industrial Designer: So we are just going to focus on the extras ? Marketing: I think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a like to have extra in a new remote control Project Manager: That is a good point You said they easily get lost as well Marketing: Yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost Project Manager: So maybe we should implement the audio sign or something Marketing: that was what I suggested Industrial Designer: Like with your keychain if you whistle it goes it makes a sound Marketing: you have it is on some phones too which have a docking station And you just press a button and the phone goes ringing So you know where it is Project Manager: audio signal should be possible as well I think it is not too expensive another point is the LCD screen I do not know if that will rise the cost too much because Industrial Designer: Y i I think we will have to choose between the docking station or the screen because Project Manager: It will be too much as well Marketing: I think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn and we are focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it which would explain a button if you press it Which would tell you what it does And it would not have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen Project Manager: Just the LCD Oh just the normal screen That is a good idea So I think that is a good idea as well Marketing: But I do not know if that would that would fit into the costs Project Manager: Extra button info I think that should be possible as well let us see what did we say Mm More Should be fancy to fancy design easy to learn Few buttons we talked about that Docking station LCD general functions Kay And default materials I think that is a good idea as well because elderly people do not mind if it is a titanium cover or just a plastic one So that does not really matter So I think we nee Marketing: I think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters Project Manager: let us specify the target group Because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty Because I think what we are going to design now is for people above sixty maybe what do we want ? If we want a with for example the the telephone for elderly people we can target the real elderly people Marketing: I think that would be a If we should do something like that it would be a I think it would be really good for for the image of the company And I think I think there would be a good market for it If we are able to really bring an innovative product Project Manager: Now you are talking about sixty to eighty for example Marketing: But I would have to look into that a little more Project Manager: And different cultures Are we Industrial Designer: Well I do not think they have different television sets Project Manager: We have got five minutes left just now Marketing: Kay And with the little screen in it which explains the buttons You could I think we n it would be a lot easier to adapt it to different cultures Project Manager: In different languages you know or you have to put a language button in it but that will be a bit unnecessary I think It is better to put it on different markets with it all that is the the target then a few small things","Firstly, after a short debate, the group reached a consensus that basic layout would be enough for the button design, on which too much emphasis would be unnecessary for the elder generation. Then, the group agreed to implement a docking station as an extra with a positioning function. Also, as opposed to touchscreen or LCD screen, an ordinary small screen and default materials were applauded. Finally, Project Manager proposed to specify the target group as people above 60, which could improve product image as Marketing said." "Project Manager: No maybe we can implement the scroll button ? Or a joystick like ? There are other ways too Just look if you look at telephones The Sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or Marketing: That is true but I do not think there are many TVs that can switch channels that fast And so you would need like the TV would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it And I do not know if many channels would do have that If many TVs have that Industrial Designer: And besides that it is If we are going to focus on elderly people they will have to adapt They are not used to using scroll buttons So perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout Project Manager: the numbers they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display and if it is too much we can reconsider it But I think there will not be very much buttons Or there do not have to be a lot Marketing: But I do not think I think if you are going to make a remote control only to operate a TV you there is not much you can gain on having as few buttons as possible Because I think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a TV which already only have the minimum number of buttons I do not think there is much to be gained in that area Project Manager: The number of buttons ? I think it is very important in the in the design You can make a very fancy design with putting the buttons on the right places And if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with Marketing: That is true but I think there is simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you are making a remote control only for to operate only the TV Project Manager: To operate only the TV Marketing: Because if you have a a remote control only to operate a TV there is simply not a lot of buttons required There is not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do not have a lot of buttons either So I think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here That would that would cost a a big marketing expedition which was one of the arguments to make it only for the TV because we did not have the time to market a lot Project Manager: So you suggest we could better focus on for example the docking station like other functions Instead of f of less buttons Marketing: Maybe Well I think mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and But I do not think we should spend very much time in that","Though Project Manager brought up scroll button and joystick as possible options, Industrial rejected that idea by arguing that the elderly were not accustomed to using them, therefore basic layout would be sufficient. Then Marketing further pointed out that there was not so much to gain in the competition of less buttons, as very few buttons would be needed for a TV remote anyway. Project Manager accepted those ideas." "Project Manager: Mm No Do you think the docking station will is allowed in the budget we have ? Industrial Designer: It should be possible yes If it is not too fancy And if the remote stays rather small it should be possible Project Manager: Because I think that is That is a good advantage point as well If we have a fancylooking docking station That is a nice requirement Docking station Industrial Designer: So we are just going to focus on the extras ? Marketing: I think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a like to have extra in a new remote control Project Manager: That is a good point You said they easily get lost as well Marketing: Yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost Project Manager: So maybe we should implement the audio sign or something Marketing: that was what I suggested Industrial Designer: Like with your keychain if you whistle it goes it makes a sound Marketing: you have it is on some phones too which have a docking station And you just press a button and the phone goes ringing So you know where it is Project Manager: audio signal should be possible as well I think it is not too expensive","Marketing's research about user requirements showed that 50% of the people tended to find their remote controls lost. Therefore, the docking station as an extra would help users find its position. To achieve this the audio sign would be implemented. When users pressed a button, the phone on the remote control went ringing and indicated its position." "Marketing: Is a battery like the only way of Industrial Designer: Well it is just you do not want it plugged in really s User Interface: alternate energy source like win wind power or Project Manager: you blow on it and i Marketing: No because like cha because always changing batteries can get like annoying The batterys down and maybe I do not know solar charged ? Industrial Designer: I do not know swi I th I th I think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain but Project Manager: it is worked for the last fifty years you know User Interface: One question I have and I do not know how much control we have over this is as far as the infrared signal do we have control over you know how far away you can be from the receiving unit the the TV and still have it be operational ? I mean maybe we want one with a strong signal stream Project Manager: How far away is your television ? It is never going to be more than it is never going to be you kno unless you have got a TV the size of a football pitch it is not does not have to go that far Industrial Designer: Well the thing is you you do not Project Manager: does it ? Does not have to go through a wall because you are not going to be looking through a wall Marketing: but if like you are on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do not really want to go into the put the telephone down and go into the other room Industrial Designer: Well we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it I did not think about that but Marketing: How about Bluetooth ? Instead of using infrared use Bluetooth Industrial Designer: Why not ? I just think that it is it is going to cost more Marketing: Is not that a better signal ? Project Manager: I d it sounds like you you w do not want to overcomplicate things Industrial Designer: and I am I am not sure it is you are going to use it Project Manager: You know we do not need it Industrial Designer: It is a fancy idea it is quite nice but then I do not th I do not know either you if you want to watch the telly you are in the room Project Manager: Basically we are we are desi we are designing and marketing a television remote control unit We are not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff It is Industrial Designer: Oh we can we can keep the idea if you i We can see at a later stage maybe I do not","Industrial Designer considered batteries as the energy source. Marketing thinks that changing batteries all the time could possibly be annoying, so she suggests other energy options like solar charging. But Industrial Designer refutes this problem because people change batteries simply every six months. User Interface raised the question on the operational distance of the infra-red signal and hoped that the remote control could be equipped with a strong signal stream. But Project Manager rendered it unnecessary because TV is always put in a short distance. Later the team discussed the necessity of through-wall signal and Bluetooth, and decided that this idea remained an idea for some budget reasons and the lack of necessity." "Project Manager: Right well done Catherine Gab Gabriel let us let us hear from you on on on such things Industrial Designer: Do you need the border ? User Interface: I am just going to use the PowerPoint so while this is warming up So I am doing the user interface design and basically as far as methods I was I was looking looking at looking at already existing remotes trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there Thinking of what we can retain what we can do away with what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design we do not want to do something that is too radical of a change I guess I mean people want a remote that is familiar that has their favourite functionalities and and does the basics but so we can improve what is out there and maintain that the basic functionality that people want so things that seem like absolute musthaves would be a volume control so updown keys for that channel keys updown but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want rather than doing updown and a mute button one thing that I did not include here that I forgot that we talked about last time was doing some sort of lock function I do not I do not know that is one possibility And so in the research that I was doing there is basically two types of remotes ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred which I do not know if I can access the web page from here but I can show you So this is a engineer centred one so you see it is rather busy but it also let us you play your movie stop your movie fastforward all this freeze frame and this is a user centred one it is it is easier to g just glance at this and see what is possible to do you are not going to be staring at it for five minutes And I judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting I kind of gathered that that is what we were going after or the direction we were going in at least So the engineering centred ones provide a lot of functionality but it can be a little bit overwhelming so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person Reissa because we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this Project Manager: Great Now that is I just have a q a q question for you This w research that you have been doing looki looking at other you know existing units stuff have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or User Interface: No that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as I know I mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones That was sort of the inspiration for it I have never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business I have have not I have never seen a locking functionality I do not know what do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that is really necessary ? Project Manager: I would say it is If it is simple to do which I think it probably should be even if it is a physical you know a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote even something like that then yes it is like you know like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing something like that but you know being physical Look into I have had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well something we should take into account is we have got to keep the corporate image within this remote control unit It is got to d look like it is in the R and R You know the the company it is it is from what I can see from our other products are yellow with blue writing on them User Interface: Right And our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics There you go User Interface: I think I think we have to carry that mental Project Manager: So it is kind of got to look it is got to look new and s you know something fashionable If if remote control well if telephones can be fashionable then maybe remote control units can be User Interface: Well these I think we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what I did not mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design I t I think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here I mean everything is going t ergonomic you know there is you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of in the market I guess Project Manager: Reissa Let us plug you in baby Marketing: Where does it go into ? User Interface: then you just have to do function F eight and it should come up Marketing: Well function F eight No Project Manager: w it it just takes a wee while User Interface: it just takes a second","In the presentation from User Interface, he first made sure of the position of the team’s remote control —— a remote control with basic functionalities and with some improvements. The must-haves would include volume control, channel keys up-down, a numerical keypad, a mute button and would exclude the lock button which was discussed in the precedent meeting. He made an introduction of two types of remotes: engineering centred ones which provide a lot of functionality and user centred which focus on the easiness of use. Later, the team discussed the locking function which Project Manager expected greatly, and also on the integration of the corporate image into the design of the remote control. At last, regarding the layout of the remote control, User Interface would like to make some improvements over two buttons concerning the ergonomic design." "Project Manager: Great Now that is I just have a q a q question for you This w research that you have been doing looki looking at other you know existing units stuff have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or User Interface: No that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as I know I mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones That was sort of the inspiration for it I have never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business I have have not I have never seen a locking functionality I do not know what do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that is really necessary ? Project Manager: I would say it is If it is simple to do which I think it probably should be even if it is a physical you know a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote even something like that then yes it is like you know like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing something like that","User Interface said the locking function is a novel idea and a good inspiration. He had never seen a locking functionality. But User Interface thought that the locking function might be unnecessary, while Project Manager thought it probably should be easy to be realized in a physical form like a cover, a switch or a flip thing." "Marketing: oh Come on Right Well for our marketing report we observed remote control users in a usability lab and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants questionnaires to fill out total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings So seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly so they do not like the look of the remote control eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy So I think we all agree with that current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user So they do not like like the way they operate it does not like match how people behave per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote so probably if you have like one two three four five the whole up to z ten they probably do not use those they only use the up and down channel Project Manager: Because we have only got five channels Marketing: That is another thing seventy five per cent of users say they zap Not quite sure what they mean zap goes like Project Manager: I think that is k flicking quickly between channels User Interface: you want to navigate the channels quickly I guess Marketing: Mm takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote I think especially for the older generation I know my grandmother does not like mobile phones takes ages to work how to use Anyway and they also remotes often get lost in the room so nobody can find them So maybe tracking devices is a good idea Project Manager: You are a child of technology are not you ? Marketing: so I was thinking something easy to use especially for older people has to look really cool flashy groovy for people to buy it And it is easy to find so I do not know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they would be interested in voice activating So voice activation So and this was what we came up with Then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age sorry age groups So fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did not want a voice activated one And neither did the older generation but the younger generation who we are catering for like who have most of the money nowadays do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote Project Manager: but do the younger generation have the money ? They they do not User Interface: No I would I would say the older the older people Project Manager: It is older generation they are the ones that have gone out and Marketing: Well the twenty five to thirty five year old and thirty five and the thirty five to forty five forty five point seven per cent say no so Project Manager: People people from the age of thirty f there is a big drop off there For people up to the age of thirty five you are kind of saying they want it but no they are not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five User Interface: that would be my guess as well Project Manager: because they are the ones that have been working for twenty years and that is a that is quite a minority there so it is not even like fifty fifty that is th thirty five per cent Marketing: These guys are growing up User Interface: What about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? I mean if if it is twelve fifty per unit Marketing: Voice activation might not be the best Project Manager: I would say scra I would say scrap that straight off Marketing: also with with buttons a thing called RSI so wrist sense User Interface: Repetitive strain rep repetitive strain injury Marketing: repetitive strains injury so they do not I think people who watch TV maybe too often keep changing channel hurts their wrist Industrial Designer: Well maybe they should not watch so much TV then Marketing: I do not think so Project Manager: So y so it is so it is so you got so that is something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of see have a look if there is any w any medical background we can find out about this Industrial Designer: Maybe it could be instead of pressing button it could be just touching a Project Manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are not going to sue us in ten years time say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury User Interface: we should probably consult with our legal department Project Manager: They are having a lunch break at the moment but I will see if I can get see if I can get hold of them for the next meeting User Interface: I think we can do some really in in that department the the ergonomic department we can make some some really good improvements Marketing: Mm Maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do not have to press so much or we just like flat buttons something","The team discussed the topic of potential user-friendly features for the old and the young. Marketing mentioned the probable insertion of tracking devices which recognize personal preferences, like voice activator, because people may easily forget the position of the remote controls in the room. However, later the team decided to put aside this idea for budget reasons. Then, Marketing mentioned RSI, or repetitive strain injury, which should be taken into consideration in the process of ergonomic design. Industrial Designer mentioned that this could probably be avoided by touching a button instead of pressing a button." "Project Manager: That is great thank you very much for that Reissa so we have basically we have decide we have d we have decided that it is going to be you know we are going for a basic television remote It is got to be safe to use it is got to look cool It is got to be cheap S Now going back to the industrial design of it you know we were looking at whether to use maybe infrared or Bluetooth I think we should just go with the simplest option on everything and that would be infrared energy source that would be batteries mean we we can look into using the s you know the little tiny weeny batteries all like special longlasting batteries But a in there is no I do not think there is any point in making a remote control unit that is going to last for fifty years because technology will have changed and you know we will not have televisions in ten years time So I think we are all pretty sussed on that anyone have any questions ? Everybody happy in their work ? User Interface: it seems like we are all on the pretty much on the same page Project Manager: Now this is good we have got a good structure going on We all know where we are going to Have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? User Interface: Oh it is probably just you because you are the project manager Sell trying to sell your things","The team is going to design a basic television remote which looks cool and is safe to be used. As for the industrial design of the remote control, due to reasons of budget and simplicity, the remote control will use infrared signals instead of Bluetooth, and the energy source would be batteries." "Marketing: Can not we have different colours in the remotes so somebody can choose different col Project Manager: Well see the thing is is we have got to keep the company image Marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? Project Manager: It is got to say people have got to look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it is a Real Reaction i product Marketing: But if it is a RR it would be Real Reaction Project Manager: There is loads of companies that called RR Marketing: like if it had a symbol on it Project Manager: This is slog but this is the slogan this is the the the the type User Interface: And this is something that came on down from from the higher ups so I mean we are sort of beholden to them Marketing: So we have to have it one colour Project Manager: Well not necessarily But we have to incorporate it User Interface: Not one colour but the pattern needs to be recognisable Project Manager: Not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it is one of our products as opposed to a Sony product or a you know a Panasonic product It is got to so maybe so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein perhaps Industrial Designer: It could come But it could come in different colours and have the RR colours just somewhere like just around the lock button could be the RR logo or colours and","Project Manager insisted the manifestation of company image on the remote control, like the slogan, symbol or other recognizable patterns. Marketing thought the remote controls should be in the same colour, while Project Manager thought it unnecessary. User Interface suggested that the pattern needs to be recognisable. Industrial Designer gave an example that the RR logo or thematic colours could be placed around the lock button." "Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning everyone and welcome to the Children Young People and Education Committee We have received apologies for absence from Janet FinchSaunders I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Suzy Davies to the committee and to thank Mark Reckless and Darren Millar who have left us for their service and hard work as members of the committee Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest please ? No We will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education I am very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams Cabinet Secretary for Education and Eluned Morgan AM Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning Can I just ask you to introduce your officials for the record please ? Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da Lynne and thank you for the invitation to join you Eluned and I are joined this morning by Huw Morris who is the group director at SHE WILL—skills higher education and lifelong learning—and Marie Knox who is deputy director overseeing European transition Lynne Neagle AM: thank you very much and thank you for coming We will go straight into questions then and the first questions are from Suzy Davies Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I would like to ask you both if that is a little bit about preparedness But if I could start with higher education I understand that—I do not know it must be about 18 months ago now—Ken Skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done Presumably one of those was HE because of the—well Welsh Government had a presence and still does in Brussels related to higher education Apparently those have now been superseded by work that is been done by Cardiff University I do not know if you have got any comments on that research or whether it is been brought to your attention yet Kirsty Williams AM: Well Suzy following the vote I was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact So in terms of preparedness we started that group in the September and that work from that group which includes both HE and FE has been instrumental in helping the Government form its views which were articulated in the Governments White Paper Securing Wales Future There has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in London and Europe becomes a little bit more clear then it becomes a little less clear and then a little bit more clear but bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an everchanging field we have been refining those approaches Each institution has been looking at their own institution because as you can imagine although we have an overview of the sector the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure for instance to the number of European Union students that they have at their college or the work that they might be doing with Horizon 2020 or their success—and there has been considerable success in the HE field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the EU in a no deal or in a deal scenario is very very different But I do not know if Huw you want to talk any further Suzy Davies AM: Maybe just to use the no deal scenario is probably the easiest is not it ? Well yes because that is the worstcase scenario so let us look at that one Huw Morris: As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the higher education Brexit working groups been meeting since September 2016 and has been looking at that in general More recently when the prospect of no deal became talked about officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that As you will be aware the funding for much of the activity is secured we believe even under a no deal scenario until December 2020 that is a letter we had from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury I think the research you are referring to may be research that Cardiff University has been doing with the Bevan Foundation and others I know there is a report due to be launched later today We have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on HE FE and apprenticeship providers Suzy Davies AM: Well that is really helpful because my understanding was that this Cardiff University research had superseded all those nine sector analyses Huw Morris: That may be true for the economy brief Certainly there are published papers by Max Munday and a team at Cardiff University on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy but for HE and FE and apprenticeship provision it is as the Cabinet Secretary outlined Suzy Davies AM: So are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise for example ? For HE and FE for that matter Kirsty Williams AM: Well the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales have been doing some specific work I can not comment on how wide they would want that to be shared We have been doing some broad analysis as I said for the sector looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution a principle that they guard really jealously and rightly so So we have been as Huw said because the prospect of a no deal has become perhaps more to the forefront officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us as people who fund part of their activity that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios We continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with So for instance we continue to work with officials in Westminster around Erasmus provision in a no deal scenario what a UK standalone project would look like the impacts of a no deal on Horizon 2020 So we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that Suzy Davies AM: Well if there is something that is shareable I am sure we would be very pleased to see it— Kirsty Williams AM: Anything that we have got— Suzy Davies AM: —particularly with FE actually because of course we have not got a HEFCW for FE you are doing that regulation yourself I would expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within Welsh Government and we would be able to see that then Eluned Morgan AM: So if I could just make some points on FE We have been actively engaging with the FE sector We have spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing I think it is quite a different response than what is going to be happening in HE Suzy Davies AM: Yes because the student thing is not such an issue is it ? Eluned Morgan AM: You have got to remember that the FE colleges are much more anchored within their communities they are much more localised and so for example the number of EU students in these colleges is significantly lower The number of staff in these colleges—I think they have analysed that there are only about 71 people So we are keeping in touch with them and we are letting them know what we are being told in terms of the Home Office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71 But that is a much bigger issue I think for higher education Suzy Davies AM: What are they telling you about European social fund funding though because as you say they are locally anchored—the impact on FE of ESF funding is probably more significant than the issues we are talking about with higher education How are you finding this out ? Is this through onetoone conversations ? Eluned Morgan AM: We are engaging with them all and obviously we are engaging with ColegauCymru who have done their own analysis and what we found in particular is that the real problems are probably in relation to ESF funding and apprenticeships But what you have got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial So if— Suzy Davies AM: Yes that is why I asked Eluned Morgan AM: —the economy nosedives or if there is an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of Brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer So it is those kinds of things but at the moment I think it is worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the FE sector just in relation to apprenticeships Suzy Davies AM: Can I just come back finally on that before handing over ? In both your areas of responsibility there is going to be an impact on Welsh Government in how it responds to that as well Can you tell me a little bit about the European transition team which I think is about building resilience within the Welsh Government to deal with the impacts of Brexit ? Is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? I do not really know much about this team but it seems to meet fortnightly to get Welsh Government ready for Brexit so could you just give us some clues on this ? Marie Knox: Yes in terms of the European transition team that is the central coordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on European transition So I attend that group in relation to higher education and further education and obviously other representatives in terms of agriculture transport the economy et cetera Suzy Davies AM: It is great that you are on that group but what does it actually do ? That is the bit I was not sure about Marie Knox: I guess it provides the governance structure for the Welsh Government as a whole in relation to European transition So individual departments do their own work and the European transition team provides the governance structure and also they lead on the discussions with the Department for Exiting the European Union No 10 the Joint Ministerial Committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I have had enough time I think","The group was focusing on the potential influence to the Wales education system due to the Brexit. The members mentioned many institutions like the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and showed that these institutions had taken much action to deal with the problems. Some of the institutions funded higher education in Wales, and others might help those universities find a better way to transit. What the group aimed at was cooperating with the institutions and help the situation become better." "Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I would like to ask you both if that is a little bit about preparedness But if I could start with higher education I understand that—I do not know it must be about 18 months ago now—Ken Skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done Presumably one of those was HE because of the—well Welsh Government had a presence and still does in Brussels related to higher education Apparently those have now been superseded by work that is been done by Cardiff University I do not know if you have got any comments on that research or whether it is been brought to your attention yet Kirsty Williams AM: Well Suzy following the vote I was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact So in terms of preparedness we started that group in the September and that work from that group which includes both HE and FE has been instrumental in helping the Government form its views which were articulated in the Governments White Paper Securing Wales Future There has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in London and Europe becomes a little bit more clear then it becomes a little less clear and then a little bit more clear but bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an everchanging field we have been refining those approaches Each institution has been looking at their own institution because as you can imagine although we have an overview of the sector the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure for instance to the number of European Union students that they have at their college or the work that they might be doing with Horizon 2020 or their success—and there has been considerable success in the HE field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the EU in a no deal or in a deal scenario is very very different But I do not know if Huw you want to talk any further Suzy Davies AM: Maybe just to use the no deal scenario is probably the easiest is not it ? Well yes because that is the worstcase scenario so let us look at that one Huw Morris: As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the higher education Brexit working groups been meeting since September 2016 and has been looking at that in general More recently when the prospect of no deal became talked about officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that As you will be aware the funding for much of the activity is secured we believe even under a no deal scenario until December 2020 that is a letter we had from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury I think the research you are referring to may be research that Cardiff University has been doing with the Bevan Foundation and others I know there is a report due to be launched later today We have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on HE FE and apprenticeship providers Suzy Davies AM: Well that is really helpful because my understanding was that this Cardiff University research had superseded all those nine sector analyses Huw Morris: That may be true for the economy brief Certainly there are published papers by Max Munday and a team at Cardiff University on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy but for HE and FE and apprenticeship provision it is as the Cabinet Secretary outlined","When discussing the dilemma that the Wales universities were faced with at the moment, Kirsty Williams pointed out that many factors would affect the fiscal situation of the universities, including whether it would be a ""no deal"" scenario or a ""deal"" one. Even though most worries were towards the ""no deal"" scenario, Huw Morris was confident that the higher education Brexit working group had been meeting since September 2016 and recently officials had been visiting individual institutions to ensure that they were fully prepared for the potential fund problems." "Eluned Morgan AM: So if I could just make some points on FE We have been actively engaging with the FE sector We have spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing I think it is quite a different response than what is going to be happening in HE Suzy Davies AM: Yes because the student thing is not such an issue is it ? Eluned Morgan AM: You have got to remember that the FE colleges are much more anchored within their communities they are much more localised and so for example the number of EU students in these colleges is significantly lower The number of staff in these colleges—I think they have analysed that there are only about 71 people So we are keeping in touch with them and we are letting them know what we are being told in terms of the Home Office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71 But that is a much bigger issue I think for higher education Suzy Davies AM: What are they telling you about European social fund funding though because as you say they are locally anchored—the impact on FE of ESF funding is probably more significant than the issues we are talking about with higher education How are you finding this out ? Is this through onetoone conversations ? Eluned Morgan AM: We are engaging with them all and obviously we are engaging with ColegauCymru who have done their own analysis and what we found in particular is that the real problems are probably in relation to ESF funding and apprenticeships But what you have got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial So if— Suzy Davies AM: Yes that is why I asked Eluned Morgan AM: —the economy nosedives or if there is an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of Brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer So it is those kinds of things but at the moment I think it is worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the FE sector just in relation to apprenticeships","Eluned Morgan had been actively engaging with the FE sector and he found that those colleges are much localized, with only 71 EU apprenticeships and staff. The group was working hard to ensure that these 71 people would safely go through such a chaotic period. What's also important was that as for FE, the relationship between the apprenticeships and the working community mattered much, which means they might have to improve the relationship between these 71 EU people and the local community." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We are going to move on then to talk about student recruitment I am going to because we have got a lot of questions appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible please Hefin Hefin David AM: How does the Welsh Government account for the fact that EU student applications in Wales this year—that Wales is the only country in the UK to have seen a significant drop ? Kirsty Williams AM: well I think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until first of all November and then the true picture because some institutions as you would know have two admissions dates—we will not get the full picture until the spring I think it was inevitable given the change in Government policy with regard to student support which had previously allowed European students to benefit from a tuition fee grant and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them that that has had an impact on EU recruitment and there is no point trying to hide from that Hefin David AM: So together with leaving the EU that is a doublewhammy effect that is hitting Wales harder than the rest of the UK Kirsty Williams AM: It just puts us in the same position as EU students applying to England but it was inevitable This was looked at by Diamond It was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy and I think we see that reflected in the initial figure although as I said we will not get the true picture until the first census in November and then ultimately the final picture in the spring Hefin David AM: How concerned are you by that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Clearly we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the EU and from around the world The fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on European Union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that Wales up until now has been successful in recruiting international students So the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students because actually international students outside of the EU make up a bigger proportion of students not from the UK who come to our institutions Hefin David AM: That is a fair point but it is unfortunate timing though is not it ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our HE sector then both my priority and I would say the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of Diamond which is what we have done Hefin David AM: that is fine What about the fact that we have got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the UK with regard to high medium and lowtariff universities ? We have got one hightariff university and they are the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of EU students Are you concerned about that balance of profile in the HE sector ? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said in answer to your question earlier there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to EU and international students I would argue that it is not necessarily the case that institutions that are not hightariff are not able to do very well in this sector If you look for instance at Swansea University—if you look at the work Swansea University has done that shows you what is possible Hefin David AM: What is Swanseas success then ? What can we learn from Swansea ? Kirsty Williams AM: What I think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what I think is really important is that we look to— And I can not force institutions to do this It is a combination I believe for all universities of getting their offer right—so having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study It is about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion so high quality ratings for teaching as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students So it is all about getting the offer right and providing what students both domestically and internationally want Hefin David AM: But the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you have just outlined is happening in Swansea but it is not happening in other institutions and they are seeing a drop Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said I think what we can see from Cardiff Swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector Hefin David AM: So Cardiff Swansea and Bangor—but the others not Kirsty Williams AM: As I said what we can see is that if you get the offer right I think we have something very special that the HE sector can market itself on Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr you have got a supplementary Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just coming back to the drop in EU students you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that is available to students coming here So does that suggest that under the current regime Wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we have lost that advantage ? I know we are gaining in other ways in introducing the new system but really we are not much different to England in terms of fees now so why would they come to Wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think you are right there was an added incentive potentially to come to a Welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant That advantage is no longer there which is why we need to work alongside the sector as we are doing with the Global Wales programme to increase their ability to market HE in the round across the world I think we have got a strong offer that we can speak to people about I am very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people It is a fantastic warm environment to come and study in at great institutions There is something for everybody whether you want to be in a city like Cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like Aber So we have got a lot to offer and that is why it is really important that although we have seen a change in the tuition fees which may have an impact we are investing with universities for instance in the Global Wales programme Lynne Neagle AM: In terms of the drop that we have seen in Wales which is differential amongst institutions will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent Brexit exacerbating that ? Kirsty Williams AM: We are working with HEFCW and individual institutions as I said to test their preparedness We can not tell them what to do in that sense but we can because of our governance arrangements and HEFCWs monitoring arrangements continue to test with them I meet regularly with vicechancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with HEFCW representatives and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda","Hefin David pointed out that Wales was the only country in the UK that witnessed a significant drop in applications from EU students. The group should have noticed that the available funding for those EU students had changed, and that was one of the reasons why fewer of them applied for Wales universities this year. But fortunately, according to Kirsty Williams, close cooperation with HEFCW and other institutions were always on the agenda to make sure that Wales universities were fully prepared." "Hefin David AM: How does the Welsh Government account for the fact that EU student applications in Wales this year—that Wales is the only country in the UK to have seen a significant drop ? Kirsty Williams AM: well I think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until first of all November and then the true picture because some institutions as you would know have two admissions dates—we will not get the full picture until the spring I think it was inevitable given the change in Government policy with regard to student support which had previously allowed European students to benefit from a tuition fee grant and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them that that has had an impact on EU recruitment and there is no point trying to hide from that Hefin David AM: So together with leaving the EU that is a doublewhammy effect that is hitting Wales harder than the rest of the UK Kirsty Williams AM: It just puts us in the same position as EU students applying to England but it was inevitable This was looked at by Diamond It was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy and I think we see that reflected in the initial figure although as I said we will not get the true picture until the first census in November and then ultimately the final picture in the spring Hefin David AM: How concerned are you by that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Clearly we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the EU and from around the world The fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on European Union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that Wales up until now has been successful in recruiting international students So the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students because actually international students outside of the EU make up a bigger proportion of students not from the UK who come to our institutions Hefin David AM: That is a fair point but it is unfortunate timing though is not it ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our HE sector then both my priority and I would say the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of Diamond which is what we have done Hefin David AM: that is fine What about the fact that we have got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the UK with regard to high medium and lowtariff universities ? We have got one hightariff university and they are the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of EU students Are you concerned about that balance of profile in the HE sector ?","Hefin David thought that the Wales government should be to blame for the fewest EU students applying for Wales universities this year, however, Kirsty Williams considered it was too early to jump to the conclusion. Not until November would they conduct the first census to get an exact number of the students enrolled. In addition, Kirsty Williams pointed out the fact that international students outside the EU make up a bigger proportion of students not from the UK who came to Wales institutions. There was no need to be so anxious about the number of the present applications." "Kirsty Williams AM: As I said in answer to your question earlier there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to EU and international students I would argue that it is not necessarily the case that institutions that are not hightariff are not able to do very well in this sector If you look for instance at Swansea University—if you look at the work Swansea University has done that shows you what is possible Hefin David AM: What is Swanseas success then ? What can we learn from Swansea ? Kirsty Williams AM: What I think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what I think is really important is that we look to— And I can not force institutions to do this It is a combination I believe for all universities of getting their offer right—so having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study It is about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion so high quality ratings for teaching as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students So it is all about getting the offer right and providing what students both domestically and internationally want Hefin David AM: But the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you have just outlined is happening in Swansea but it is not happening in other institutions and they are seeing a drop Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said I think what we can see from Cardiff Swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector Hefin David AM: So Cardiff Swansea and Bangor—but the others not Kirsty Williams AM: As I said what we can see is that if you get the offer right I think we have something very special that the HE sector can market itself on","Kirsty Williams thought Swansea University was quite a good example for them to learn from. During such a dilemma, Swansea University found a solution that provided an attractive curriculum and offered courses that people really wanted to take. They delivered their curriculum in a fashion way, guaranteed good teaching, and had an appealing infrastructure, which all made good use to attract potential applicants. That was exactly what other institutions needed to do at present." "Julie Morgan AM: The additional £64 million that went to HEFCW in the 201718 year which I think you say is partly because of Brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? Kirsty Williams AM: That funding was allocated as I said to enable HEFCW to deal with any shortterm implications arising out of demographic changes because we have seen a drop in the number of 18yearolds and the initial implications of EU transition It was allocated as part of HEFCWs overall grant in aid and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector The money was brought forward a year because in conversations with HEFCW and the institutions they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on So it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 201718 as opposed to 201819 because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later With regard to additional resources you will be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees and £5 million has been made available to HEFCW to kickstart the work on postgraduate support until we are in a position to fully implement Diamond at the postgraduate level Julie Morgan AM: You say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities So you do not have an analysis of how that was spent Kirsty Williams AM: The financial allocation as I said was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues but if you would like further details I can provide those as much as I am able Julie Morgan AM: I think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and of course that money is now not available for the next financial year so there is no way of carrying on what they were doing with it presumably Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said it was part of the overall allocation to HEFCW With specific regard to dealing with the impact of Brexit you will be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £35 million to the Global Wales initiative This was an application that came in from Universities Wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time and we are currently working with Universities Wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment Julie Morgan AM: And do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is subject to continuing negotiations with Universities Wales before we let any contracts with them What is important is that that work is based on research that has been done by Universities Wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting specifically the United States of America and Vietnam Julie Morgan AM: And will this money be used equally between all the universities ? Kirsty Williams AM: We expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted as well as the overall global branding from Universities Wales and the new Study in Wales initiative Julie Morgan AM: Thank you I think we have covered the EU student fees have not we ? Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want to ask question 12 ? Julie Morgan AM: Has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and EU students who may wish to study here ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well with regard to immigration clearly this is something at the moment that is out of our hands and I have to say it has not got off to a great start when initially the poststudy work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the southeast of England with no consultation with us and I do not believe with the Scottish Government either So we have campaigned pushed cajoled lobbied and I was very glad that in December last year the Home Office did then make that scheme available to Cardiff and to Trinity Saint David We continue to press the point that we do not believe that first of all international students should be included in any immigration targets I think all the evidence suggests that the British public do not regard international students as immigrants and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the UK Government At the moment you will be aware that Welsh Government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for Wales although I must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students You will be aware that this week the Governments migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do not believe that there is a case for a separate provision for EU students as opposed to international students But we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in Wales and indeed the UK to be able to do so Llyr Gruffydd AM: So what are we doing from now on in then ? Are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? Kirsty Williams AM: No—gosh—Llyr we continue to push the case at the official level and at the moment I am trying to convene a quadrilateral if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that Northern Ireland are not up and running—but certainly with officials from Northern Ireland We are trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself the HE Minister for England and the new HE Minister for Scotland If I can speak candidly I do not believe that there is any difference between our view with regard to the status of international students and the views of English Ministers within the department in England It is convincing the Home Office of that case So I do not think we need to persuade Sam Gyimah about the importance of this Jo Johnson got I think the current Minister gets it—it is a question of whether we can persuade the Home Office of that particular case","The group laid their stress on mainly three aspects in terms of dealing with the problem at an official level, which respectively were adding more funding to the universities, implementing a new immigration policy, and asking for the minister's help. With adequate funding, the institutions would be more likely to satisfy the research needs from the students. Similarly, a more robust immigration policy might make it more appealing for those who would like to set down in Wales. Last but not least, making the minister be aware of the serious problem would also be important that the problem would then be brought to national meetings and discussed by more officials." "Julie Morgan AM: The additional £64 million that went to HEFCW in the 201718 year which I think you say is partly because of Brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? Kirsty Williams AM: That funding was allocated as I said to enable HEFCW to deal with any shortterm implications arising out of demographic changes because we have seen a drop in the number of 18yearolds and the initial implications of EU transition It was allocated as part of HEFCWs overall grant in aid and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector The money was brought forward a year because in conversations with HEFCW and the institutions they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on So it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 201718 as opposed to 201819 because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later With regard to additional resources you will be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees and £5 million has been made available to HEFCW to kickstart the work on postgraduate support until we are in a position to fully implement Diamond at the postgraduate level Julie Morgan AM: You say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities So you do not have an analysis of how that was spent Kirsty Williams AM: The financial allocation as I said was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues but if you would like further details I can provide those as much as I am able Julie Morgan AM: I think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and of course that money is now not available for the next financial year so there is no way of carrying on what they were doing with it presumably Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said it was part of the overall allocation to HEFCW With specific regard to dealing with the impact of Brexit you will be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £35 million to the Global Wales initiative This was an application that came in from Universities Wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time and we are currently working with Universities Wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment","When discussing the funding to support Wales universities to go through the financial problems, Julie Morgan mentioned that they have funded Wales universities with 6.4 million dollars in 2017-18. Kirsty Williams added that they had actually made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees, and another £5 million had been made available to HEFCW to kick-start the work on postgraduate support. With the adequate funding, Kirsty Williams believed that there would be little need to worry about the fiscal problems of Wales universities." "Julie Morgan AM: Has the Welsh Government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and EU students who may wish to study here ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well with regard to immigration clearly this is something at the moment that is out of our hands and I have to say it has not got off to a great start when initially the poststudy work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the southeast of England with no consultation with us and I do not believe with the Scottish Government either So we have campaigned pushed cajoled lobbied and I was very glad that in December last year the Home Office did then make that scheme available to Cardiff and to Trinity Saint David We continue to press the point that we do not believe that first of all international students should be included in any immigration targets I think all the evidence suggests that the British public do not regard international students as immigrants and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the UK Government At the moment you will be aware that Welsh Government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for Wales although I must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students You will be aware that this week the Governments migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do not believe that there is a case for a separate provision for EU students as opposed to international students But we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in Wales and indeed the UK to be able to do so","According to Kirsty Williams, he was not quite in favor of a new immigration policy at first, for when post-study work visas were first issued in the south-east of England, the outcome was not so satisfying. However, his attitude had changed. As the locals usually did not take foreign students as immigrants, the government should treat the foreign students and those who came from EU as the same, which is to say, a new immigration system should be set to ensure that EU students and all the other foreign ones would receive the same treatment when seeking a job in Wales." "Eluned Morgan AM: I think it is important What we have said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by EU funding I think we have got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario I think we have got to— The UK Government have made us some promises and they have made some commitments and we need to hold them to that and so let us keep the pressure on The moment we start saying No it is all going to be we will sort ourselves out—I think that would be a huge mistake We have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of Brexit and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment I think it was quite interesting to hear what Philip Hammond said yesterday when he was in Wales saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy which implies that he has no idea what is going to happen there and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal Well that is really not what we are interested in We were made some promises and we need them to commit to those promises I think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the Brexit referendum But in terms of the replacements we would be looking at about £15 million a year and that would be a huge impact for us but we are not looking at that—I do not think we should be—because they made some promises John Griffiths AM: So could you say that if they keep their promises then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? Eluned Morgan AM: I think that would be a minimum but that is just one aspect of it That is not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Suzy you had a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Yes just very quickly on the multiannual point obviously I recognise that we are talking about six or sevenyear cycles with Europe and I completely take the point that you do not really know from year to year what your budgets going to be but Welsh Government does make multiannual commitments I think you did it yesterday actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year How are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well both your sectors really ? Eluned Morgan AM: I think it is probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue so that is what would make the difference But it is— These institutions are interested in revenue because that is what supports the staff The one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we would like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they are less likely then to be committed to those institutions I think it is a really really concerning thing because what makes these institutions work well is their staff so that makes life very very difficult without that multiannual commitment Suzy Davies AM: They also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must not forget that Eluned Morgan AM: No I think that is right and I think that there is more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas Suzy Davies AM: thank you Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: So given the precarious state of planning for the finances are you considering letting universities charge EU students international fees ? Kirsty Williams AM: We do not regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students They would be in a position to—Inaudible They are in a position to set international fees at a rate that I guess they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students Lynne Neagle AM: right We will move on then to questions from Llyr Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you I just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the longterm funding because the ESF—the commitments take us to 2023 which takes us beyond any transition period So I just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole come what may Eluned Morgan AM: Well we are fine until 2020 because we have had that guarantee from the Government The issue for us is the n2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the EU So there is a risk and there is concern beyond 2020 that that would create problems if they do not agree to fund that which is the expectation that we have Llyr Gruffydd AM: But it is a prospect that this would not be achieved as you foresee Eluned Morgan AM: Well we do hope because we have had the pledges and commitments from the Government that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding Llyr Gruffydd AM: So to what extent does that undermine the current work ? Because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on Businesses want to know if they are starting on some sort of journey that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line That must be undermining a lot of the work that is going on now Eluned Morgan AM: Well as I said because the guarantee is there until 2020 I think that for now people are willing to go into those agreements and I hope that we will have a better outlook by November of the direction we are moving in But I do not think it is had an impact You have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in Wales is rising while they have collapsed entirely in England So it is important that we do continue and it is important that we do not create an atmosphere here that is going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you confident that the Government will achieve its targets in this context ? Eluned Morgan AM: Yes We are on target to reach 100000 apprenticeships I think we are slightly ahead of that target I am pleased to say So of course our hope is to do that But let us be clear : if there is a no deal scenario that will have an impact on the economy and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the EU","The group mentioned that Wales government had promised a multi-annual commitment that it would help the Wales universities to get through the transition period and operate well with enough funding. However, some of the members thought that they could not always rely on the government and should have a budget plan for themselves. For fear that they might only receive the governmental funding for those apprentices, the group agreed to keep the apprenticeship firmly, even if some areas like England had abandoned it." "Eluned Morgan AM: I think it is important What we have said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by EU funding I think we have got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario I think we have got to— The UK Government have made us some promises and they have made some commitments and we need to hold them to that and so let us keep the pressure on The moment we start saying No it is all going to be we will sort ourselves out—I think that would be a huge mistake We have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of Brexit and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment I think it was quite interesting to hear what Philip Hammond said yesterday when he was in Wales saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy which implies that he has no idea what is going to happen there and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal Well that is really not what we are interested in We were made some promises and we need them to commit to those promises I think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the Brexit referendum But in terms of the replacements we would be looking at about £15 million a year and that would be a huge impact for us but we are not looking at that—I do not think we should be—because they made some promises John Griffiths AM: So could you say that if they keep their promises then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? Eluned Morgan AM: I think that would be a minimum but that is just one aspect of it That is not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Suzy you had a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: Yes just very quickly on the multiannual point obviously I recognise that we are talking about six or sevenyear cycles with Europe and I completely take the point that you do not really know from year to year what your budgets going to be but Welsh Government does make multiannual commitments I think you did it yesterday actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year How are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well both your sectors really ? Eluned Morgan AM: I think it is probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue so that is what would make the difference But it is— These institutions are interested in revenue because that is what supports the staff The one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we would like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they are less likely then to be committed to those institutions I think it is a really really concerning thing because what makes these institutions work well is their staff so that makes life very very difficult without that multiannual commitment Suzy Davies AM: They also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must not forget that Eluned Morgan AM: No I think that is right and I think that there is more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas Suzy Davies AM: thank you Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: So given the precarious state of planning for the finances are you considering letting universities charge EU students international fees ? Kirsty Williams AM: We do not regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students They would be in a position to—Inaudible They are in a position to set international fees at a rate that I guess they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students","While talking about the official commitments to help the Wales universities to get through the transition period, Suzy Davies compared the two kinds of multi-annual commitments that one was related to revenue and the other to capital. She did not think that either of them would work, however, according to Eluned Morgan, the official commitment related to capital would matter more under such a transition period. Even if most people would focus on the revenue, they should pay attention to the capital for that it is exactly the capital that ensured the institutions to operate well under the dilemma." "Lynne Neagle AM: right We will move on then to questions from Llyr Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you I just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the longterm funding because the ESF—the commitments take us to 2023 which takes us beyond any transition period So I just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole come what may Eluned Morgan AM: Well we are fine until 2020 because we have had that guarantee from the Government The issue for us is the n2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the EU So there is a risk and there is concern beyond 2020 that that would create problems if they do not agree to fund that which is the expectation that we have Llyr Gruffydd AM: But it is a prospect that this would not be achieved as you foresee Eluned Morgan AM: Well we do hope because we have had the pledges and commitments from the Government that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding Llyr Gruffydd AM: So to what extent does that undermine the current work ? Because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on Businesses want to know if they are starting on some sort of journey that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line That must be undermining a lot of the work that is going on now Eluned Morgan AM: Well as I said because the guarantee is there until 2020 I think that for now people are willing to go into those agreements and I hope that we will have a better outlook by November of the direction we are moving in But I do not think it is had an impact You have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in Wales is rising while they have collapsed entirely in England So it is important that we do continue and it is important that we do not create an atmosphere here that is going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace Llyr Gruffydd AM: Are you confident that the Government will achieve its targets in this context ? Eluned Morgan AM: Yes We are on target to reach 100000 apprenticeships I think we are slightly ahead of that target I am pleased to say So of course our hope is to do that But let us be clear : if there is a no deal scenario that will have an impact on the economy and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the EU","When discussing the official commitments, Eluned Morgan had great confidence in the government that they would provide firm support for the Wales universities. But as for Llyr Gruffydd, he did not think that the institutions would be able to rely on the official funding much, and more importantly, if they would like to enter into the agreements at present, they would interrupt their current work, which would also put themselves in great risk." "Marketing: Shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we have got it now first and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? Right I have a little thing So we have all got a note of it is thirteen point seven is not it with everything we want on Project Manager: Sorry do you want that back up ? Marketing: I just had a presentation to do User Interface: But I do think the v voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it is got no battery Project Manager: but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost Marketing: Mmhmm Mm Right This is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we have got here And so the method is that the design team makes a prototype and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we have formulated And those ones are going to be in response to sort of market research and also finance I guess And do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven so if it is neither true nor false then that is four So I got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well at the end so We have to say whether it is true or false that the product looks and feels fancy The whether the product demonstrates technical innovation Whether it is easy to use Whether it is incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer And whether it is a sort of recognisable Real Reaction product And I have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently so I will go over here Right So the first one is does the product look and feel fancy So if we do a sort of a one So Industrial Designer: well we have a single curve which was maybe like the feel of the products quite good then we have the rubber kind of spongy feel which was in at the time sorry that would be considered fancy User Interface: I would maybe give it a a two Marketing: Of but I think What Is one false or is t one true ? I forgot Ones true and Sevens fal User Interface: And a four is neutral Industrial Designer: So maybe maybe a two User Interface: because we have not got the double curve so we can not like say it is completely true But it is pretty close We have got almost everything we can Marketing: I going to put underneath so I have got some more space So false is seven true is one and So say about a two for fancy Project Manager: m m maybe nearer three Marketing: well d you do an average at the end I do not know Project Manager: Two three Well it is just that saying something remember that when you look down we have got solar power we have got various other things you could have and we are not going for these options Marketing: Uhhuh This this is just this is just for like the look Does it sort of look fancy rather than functional So User Interface: I suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit Marketing: so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? Kay And I mean how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? Industrial Designer: deciding between the kinetic power or the speech recognition and if we had either of those for our budget they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition Marketing: D So what about the pr The prototype as it is we have got we have got the speech recognition on it have not we Project Manager: No Because you can not afford that w we took that out too Industrial Designer: No we c ca we can not afford both Project Manager: Did not you ? Or Marketing: So it does not It is pretty The prototype as it is is not sort of fulfilling the Industrial Designer: No may is maybe about neutral plus it it it is got something but it has not got Project Manager: Well wait a minute In thirteen point seven we do have kinetic User Interface: I would give it more than a four Project Manager: The problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five And one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic So it is very much dependant on what you do with your options And if you are definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker then because that the other functions we have got in are are more at the The special material the rubber wood titanium et cetera if you go for that th that is at the high end because that is point six whereas down at just special colours is point two Now you are trying to lose one point two so it seems to me that if you are going for the sample sensors speaker you are basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else And and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery to have your sample sensor speaker and then you are looking to take out point two Marketing: S I am just going to check my email Project Manager: which would be come from the button supplements category Marketing: I am just going to check exactly what it said in the email for the product User Interface: How much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? Because we did say that we do not want to follow the fashion too much If the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough And then it stand the test of time better Project Manager: well plastic rather than rubber That that that would make the significant difference You could either you could have it If you have a in plastic rather than rubber then that would enable you to get you could keep kinetic then you could keep your sample sensor and you would be looking to take out point two So you could fiddle that down your special form at the bottom or your special colour at the bottom And that would enable you to to do it Industrial Designer: So it says if we make a slightly more fancy then we lose points innovation and if we make it more innovative innovative then we lose points on it being fancy so Marketing: I just read the email again and it sort of says it is evaluate the design sort of as it is I think so I think we need to think about finance after we have sort of evaluated that design I do not know whether we are doing it in the wrong order or something or User Interface: Well I suppose it is rubber as it is is not it Project Manager: It is rubber as it is yes Marketing: So I mean does this need to go up a bit or something because we have got both the both the the speech Project Manager: We got we have we have got thirteen point seven and we have got it in at the moment and if and basically we are going to reduce down from that But the current one you would say would be fancy would be too Marketing: for for innovation so we have got the speech the speech thing and Project Manager: Mmhmm I would have said about a two as well Marketing: Do you reckon a two ? User Interface: two or three I would be happy with a two Marketing: And the next one is I will have to get it back up now Project Manager: The next on Well I can just sing about Easy to use I would have said yes I would go for a one on that at this point in time User Interface: I would say so as well Project Manager: incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer Well it certainly has some User Interface: it is got the cherry and the sponginess Marketing: Say about a three maybe ? Industrial Designer: it was just doing it quite well I think we are going to have to lose some of these but the moment as it stands it is Project Manager: I would have said two would seem reasonable The product is a recognisable real r reaction product ? Industrial Designer: the sensor using all of its all of its products all of its buttons and it is got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from User Interface: that is a bit rough at the minute Marketing: So this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing as well as having the logo on and all that So sort of Is it sort of a recognisable product Does it fit in with our other other products which are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft User Interface: well it is got the same speech feature as the coffee machine Industrial Designer: Also it is kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kind of comfortable than kind of sleek and new age it depends which way you look at it Project Manager: So we are going for a two Industrial Designer: Maybe a kind of three ? d User Interface: Well the logo would be more recognisable on the actual thing It is just that the pen would not really write on that paper But I think the logo would definitely be recognisable And it does have attributes that other products do Two ? Aye Go for it Project Manager: Right come on That is that decided So we are now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements and then User Interface: What does what do all them numbers mean then ? Do we add them up and rate or anything ? Marketing: we s I think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is going to be I am just going to do this in my head One point eight is not it or something I think anyway So pretty close to a two So So it is I mean it is pretty good at the moment but it is going to get worse is not it But we have got to try and make sure it does not get too bad Project Manager: Two b two b two Industrial Designer: So should we get So are definite Was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has","The evaluated the prototype against some criteria formulated in response to the market research and financial consideration. The team agreed that the features of fancy appearance and technical innovation were mutually exclusive. Besides, they all believed that their product incorporated elements of fashion to attract buyers and it fit in with their company's other products. Then, the team discussed the budget of the product." "Marketing: so I will go over here Right So the first one is does the product look and feel fancy So if we do a sort of a one So Industrial Designer: well we have a single curve which was maybe like the feel of the products quite good then we have the rubber kind of spongy feel which was in at the time sorry that would be considered fancy User Interface: I would maybe give it a a two Marketing: Of but I think What Is one false or is t one true ? I forgot Ones true and Sevens fal User Interface: And a four is neutral Industrial Designer: So maybe maybe a two User Interface: because we have not got the double curve so we can not like say it is completely true But it is pretty close We have got almost everything we can Marketing: I going to put underneath so I have got some more space So false is seven true is one and So say about a two for fancy",Industrial Designer thought it was fancy because the product had a single curve and the material of the rubber was fashionable at that time. "Project Manager: incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer Well it certainly has some User Interface: it is got the cherry and the sponginess Marketing: Say about a three maybe ? Industrial Designer: it was just doing it quite well",User Interface thought that the product incorporated elements of fashion to attract buyers because some of the buttons were shaped like cherry and it was spongy. "Project Manager: So we are now on to project process Now satisfaction with for example room for creativity leadership teamwork means et cetera whiteboard digital pens et cetera So we are actually now in a sense on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it So what did you and remembering that nobodys just over the curtain Industrial Designer: We should just go through this quickly and then Project Manager: I suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down which I will do So I think I have to finish that page Right so Project evaluation So Creativity Did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? Marketing: I thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary Project Manager: Individual meetings How do you mean ? Marketing: Well we were finding out various things in in be inbetween the meetings Project Manager: In you on your own Marketing: and they did not the one meeting did not always follow on for the other one you know sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where you know you would looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness but in the first one you would also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons and I do not understand why it would be in separate meetings that you would do that You know you would sort of you would probably present it at one or something like that Project Manager: Mm The only thing you find is in a manufacturing process you would normally you go to a meeting you decide right you do this you do that you do that Then you go away You find out information You then come back You then discuss it You then go and change things around and then go back So Industrial Designer: I suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time Project Manager: Whereas this time you are really getting it from a database source Industrial Designer: and then different things will be relevant Project Manager: so it is not well Anyway so what do you want to put down ? I have put seemed Creativity seemed flow of information on on any given subject given subject sometimes disjointed User Interface: I think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project I mean a remote control is not the most kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing I can not think of a better example at the minute Project Manager: Have could have used a different example pel to increase create Creativity Industrial Designer: Is this go It kind of kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on Project Manager: You have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing so Marketing: Mmhmm But think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control in a way I mean it depends what sort of business you are in I guess I mean this one seems From the website it looks it is quite innovative but we are coming up with some bucket shop product are not we that is you know fifteen quid Industrial Designer: one of those things Like companies can have like a range of products and I do not know how it works but I guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of Project Manager: But the other thing is that they are I am guessing that they are trying to use this software to to demonstrate how you could do a project I mean m my wife at the moment for instance is acting as a computer for you normally you got a problem so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed So what she is doing is she is having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can ask whatever question And then you or the idea is that the whichever persons at the other end can point them in the right direction show them where to either give them directly give them help or secondly point them in the right direction either at the library or or or come back or go and see Joe Bloggs or whatever So and that was a project I suspect similar to this because they they were actually trying to debug the computer software to enable to enable it to work And of course you had the machine crashing and various things going wrong So Industrial Designer: Well sh we look at the last slide see if it is got anything else I think there is one one more to go Marketing: I mean if you look at their products on their website here Real Reaction I mean it is all pretty hightech and cutting edge Project Manager: did we find any no Industrial Designer: It was quite good with this the white board having that and the digital pens Like that is something that made it a little easier Marketing: we did find a new idea I mean sort of a kinetic remote control I have never seen one of them before batteries I think So Industrial Designer: voice recognition especially not could Project Manager: You have got voice recognition computers that is not remote controls User Interface: Well it is a different application of it Industrial Designer: so it is just like the same products but just put together in a different way Project Manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? Industrial Designer: I guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them Marketing: I do not think sort of the budget allowed us to do anything Well I mean I do not think it I just do not think it fitted in with the rest of their products I mean they have got all these sort of you know high definition DVD and portable seven inch d lightweight computer screens and I am thinking do you know one cheap remote control does not really fit in Project Manager: So we are m we are meant to comment on leadership and the means E G whiteboard digital pens et cetera Marketing: Surely they they should produ Project Manager: And and new i new ideas found was the the other thing User Interface: Well leaderships a bit of a funny one is not it But we can not really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the Project Manager You were the leader So our experience of leadership was not really as much as yours Project Manager: Now I would much rather be in marketing but I certainly did not get this computer to work as well as I would have liked However Alright means so whiteboard so really it is equipment Oh Marketing: Comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but User Interface: But I mean I d I do not I am not sure I see the value in these I mean they record what you are writing and then what do you do with it ? Where do you get the recording ? Do you plug the computer or something ? Marketing: I think there is a little there is a little chi Industrial Designer: So it is not just for us it is for the experiment as a whole so Marketing: There is a little there is a little chip I think you must plug it into something Industrial Designer: Should we quickly look at the last slide ? User Interface: Right I think you watch a video of it kind of Marketing: I do not know Whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you have written or something and Page after page Project Manager: Right New ideas found so one or two Marketing: Kinetic powered remote control what was the other one ? To fill in these fill in these questionnaires Project Manager: Right so are the costs within budget yes Is the project evaluated yes do not forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary Then celebration","The team thought the creativity of the team was okay, as they felt that they got chances to express themselves well enough, but there were still some problems in their process of discussion. Then, Industrial Designer gave an example on how to improve the creativeness of the team. The team believed that their team work went well. As for the methods of discussion, Project manager thought that he was still not familiar with the operation of computers." "Project Manager: Mm The only thing you find is in a manufacturing process you would normally you go to a meeting you decide right you do this you do that you do that Then you go away You find out information You then come back You then discuss it You then go and change things around and then go back So Industrial Designer: I suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time Project Manager: Whereas this time you are really getting it from a database source Industrial Designer: and then different things will be relevant Project Manager: so it is not well Anyway so what do you want to put down ? I have put seemed Creativity seemed flow of information on on any given subject given subject sometimes disjointed User Interface: I think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project I mean a remote control is not the most kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing",Project Manager thought that the team members showed their creativeness during the course of the meeting. But the flow of information on a given subject was sometimes disjointed. "Project Manager: So we are m we are meant to comment on leadership and the means E G whiteboard digital pens et cetera Marketing: Surely they they should produ Project Manager: And and new i new ideas found was the the other thing User Interface: Well leaderships a bit of a funny one is not it But we can not really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the Project Manager You were the leader So our experience of leadership was not really as much as yours Project Manager: Now I would much rather be in marketing","User Interface thought that the team members can't all fairly comment on leadership because Project Manager is the leader, and the other member's experience of leadership wasn't as much as the Project Manager." "Industrial Designer: so that would work oop Go back there another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design from previous researches I have carried out on other projects we have learnt about smart materials where specific alloys of metals have a shape memory So they can be heated and and cooled and they change the shape of the metal So for example a screw that is holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart So the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life if it was heated everything would spring apart So all the individual components could be easily separated and then some could be reused some could be recycled and I think that would be very important for products now Especially because there is much responsibility for all the companies who are coming up with like new designs Because all we all know that our resources are being limited and we have to be very environmentally conscious Project Manager: Right one question This selfdestructible metal it allows for recycling materials ? So that someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it and then once they contribute it then that company can break down the part the parts better ? Industrial Designer: And then they would you would make the the product as you normally would apart from the the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shapememory alloy And that is the part that would allow all the other parts to be separated at the end I mean the user would return the p product to the company because it is the products responsibility to get rid of what they have made and then the company could then just use make use of this shapememory alloys to split up the components and then either reuse some bits and other bits which are obviously going to wear out with time or not usable they might be like be able to put into scrap metal Something like the case if it is scratched or something you would want to reuse it but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else Project Manager: Mmhmm Would we be the company that would break down these or metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ? Industrial Designer: You could we could probably empl them employ a a side company or something to do that for us But it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made For a certain percentage at least Not every not a hundred percent of everything we produce Project Manager: This sounds like a really great idea One thing we have to consider is our one hundred percent turnover goal that we have for our financial sector so we will have to investigate how much that will cost us cost the company because it sounds very labourintensive You would have to hire a number of people and it might be more expensive Industrial Designer: Well I the fact of the shapememory alloys is that they they do not need to be manually de deconstructed Like you do not have to individually unscrew all the screws Because of this their properties are smart material All you need is just the heat so they selfdestruct themselves Project Manager: Alright We will still have to investigate the financial implications Industrial Designer: So I suppose it does need like high contact you know high quality machinery and very specific machinery but Project Manager: Alright I like the environmental approach we will have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well Industrial Designer: also there is components This will be how it will actually work But I have not put this plan together yet Project Manager: I am sorry could you Industrial Designer: Sorry should I go back This would actually show the circuit diagram Although I have not come up with the final circuit yet So I just put all those components in Project Manager: So those are what we will c construct the remote Those are all the Industrial Designer: I it just shows what sort of energy source It could be a battery like rechargeable probably an well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself ? So now is it F eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go","The industrial designer suggested that when taking environmental impact into consideration, the product could switch to a more environmental-friendly material. This type of material was made up of specific alloys of metals which have a shape memory, and it also allowed recycling. Hence, the product manager lifted out the point that the company could recycle the old remote controls from customers and take down the usable parts to make new remote controls. Even though the team liked the idea, the product manager also raised his concern towards the financial budget. In the end they agreed to discuss further about how they could achieve the idea by not exceeding the budget." "User Interface: I am the User User Interface Designer the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have in this case it is the function of the remote control which is to send messages to the television television set By taking inspiration from other similar designs we will try and come up with an original trendy remote control which is sellable international There are two functional design options A multifunctional remote control which can be used for several entertainment devices And a single function remote control used specifically for the television Marketing: I am sorry what was that last one Multifunctional and User Interface: Sorry a single function just for the television itself multifunctional controls can be difficult to use as the multitude of buttons can be confusing A single function remote control is simpler to use but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices I think that a single function remote control would be preferable because it is easier to use It would be more compatible with a range of television sets making it more internationally sellable it will make an original design more obtainable as we have less functional necessities to include in the design And it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic And less functions would have to be included So it would be cheaper to make And probably more sellable just because it is more compatible with a r a wider range of devices Does anyone have any questions ? Marketing: So as far as we know a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? User Interface: Well it is just that when we are creating it we are we have to make it compatible with different brands of devices And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent Project Manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? Industrial Designer: I was just wondering about the what what Genevieve said before about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing And that would probably I d well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design I suppose having that would complicate it a lot more And limit the design Do you think ? Marketing: I think I agree with the single design thing for now because we are trying to do so much that if we are trying to make a unique userfriendly dadada and it is also multi also multifunctional we are going to go over budget for one thing User Interface: And with this we will have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design We will have more money to go into the design side of it","The user interface designer suggested two options of making the remote control functional. One way was to make it multi-functional, so as to be used for several entertainment devices. Another way was to make it single-functional, which could be used specifically for the television. The entire group preferred the product to be single-functional. It is because making an original design was more obtainable, and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic. They had to make it compatible with different brands of devices to sell internationally." "Marketing: So I will be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control and I will give you a little briefing on what that means exactly if you all remember from the email we got before our very first kickoff meeting with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly so what I will be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled I have done some marketing research a lot of interviews with remote control users and some internet research And I will show you my findings Oh and firstly I wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose So we believe in providing international market with fashionable products hence our motto we put the fashion in electronics So I think that should be our priority here and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design Not just in electronic fashion So that it is something that fits in the household Project Manager: I am sorry what was that last thing that you just said ? Marketing: we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design Any trends that are going on in in the public even media you know who is famous what TV shows are being watched to influence our remote control so the findings seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly Which is a quite a significant number the other twenty five percent did not specify if they love them or found them you know neutral Eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy Current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user Project Manager: I am sorry that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy You mean that they would spend more money on a fancylooking remote control ? Marketing: they are willing they are willing to spend money on a remote control with personality","The marketing specialist did some research and the marking specialist stressed on the topic of appearance. To combine with the company’s motto, the marketing specialist believed in providing the international market with fashionable remote controls. And the statistics also showed that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy. Hence customers would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control." "Marketing: As opposed to your basic you know oval black all same size button remote control so it is something that people care about It is not it is not ignored in the household seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot Zapping meaning they go through channels a lot They are you know thumbmasters and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons That A very small amount Thought that was interesting Project Manager: Alright so it might be very appealing if we have very concise buttons And another thing with lots of surfing we would probably have to work on something that could be a lot more durable because I find with channelchangers that a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they are printed on the button Industrial Designer: that is a good point Marketing: And actually to go with that I am going to give you some statistics on the relevancy of the buttons how much they are used And how important the users find them So the power button obviously in an hour is only used once Hopefully the persons not turning on and off the TV but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten So people want to be able to turn on the TV with the remote control as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set Channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour That is a huge amount This is the most important button so obviously when commercials come on they are changing it so as you said we want a durable button that is not going to run down Relevance of that button our users found was ten ten out of ten ditto for volume selection so ten out of ten And it is used on average four times an hour Not as much as channel selection but still significant audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour Relevance is two Screen settings which means brightness colour etcetera zero point five times an hour and relevance of one point five We are getting to specific statistics here Teletext now I am not too clear on what that is I do not know if you can help me Flipping pages Industrial Designer: It is like the news Or like information User Interface: It has TV has like information it has information on holidays the news entertainment Marketing: So like a running banner underneath Project Manager: No it is a button that you press and then you like a menu pops up I have not used it before User Interface: And you have page numbers like for the menu and you press the page numbers with your remote and it it will come up Industrial Designer: It is like very basic internet Sort of Marketing: Like tells you the weather and User Interface: But you have no interaction back with it you know Like the internet you can send emails and You have no interaction Industrial Designer: it is just information that like television timetables what is on what is on now what is on next on every channel and Marketing: Alright Well I guess I am not with it because I was not But it is it is being used fourteen times an hour and has a r a high relevance of six point five So it looks like something that we are going to want to do some research on and include on our remote control channel settings Zero point zero one times an hour Relevance of three Channel settings User Interface: probably just tuning in the channels would it be ? Marketing: P Sorry Changing the channels ? User Interface: Tuning them in at the very start You know if you get a new TV set you tune in all the channels Industrial Designer: To get the right reception and picture I suppose User Interface: do you th do you think ? Marketing: so it is not used very often but people still find it relevant biggest frustrations of the people that we interviewed Remote controls are often lost somewhere So that was already discussed by Poppy How we could have a an alarm system so that people can find it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control So it should be very userfriendly you know People know what to do very quickly remote controls are bad for RSI Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ? Industrial Designer: Oh I am guessing that is what it is I am not","It was discovered by the marketing specialist that people liked to switch channels, thus they had to make a more durable button. The marketing specialist counted the times of usage of every button on the remote control, and wanted to make a user-friendly banner to include all the buttons in. When including the buttons, they took in consideration the relevance and disadvantaged people as well." "Marketing: designers can look into that buttons that do not require you know very firm pushing if they respond But we will have to also avoid you know buttons responding to the slightest touch as well That is a problem Did you guys get that one down ? here is some ideas for you A large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls So I will show you some numbers here so the youngest age group fifteen to twenty five Ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control and you can see that number decreases a bit with old s Interestingly enough twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount that would are willing to pay extra So I guess we are going to have to figure out what age group we are we are targeting and if and if voice recognition is something we want to look into And if we have the budget for it if we are targeting young adults it looks like something that would pay off Seeing as ninety percent over ninety percent would pay for it Project Manager: I agree with if we are targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into financially and and functionally and especially if we are trying to be trendy go with fashions things like that ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably will not be as concerned Marketing: So that that is a whole other field of research I do not know if it would be if we would still have a remote or if you are talking to your television and saying change channel and depending on how many members you have in households So it m it may be too complicated for us but it is something to keep in mind anyway Project Manager: And something that might further complicate it is that the TV makes noise itself Wonder if it would have Industrial Designer: And if there was conversation in the room at the same time although in theory it does not tend to be when you are watching television but could be very difficult to get the specific design Project Manager: If we are looking for a simplistic design if We need to decide if that is our intention is is a simplistic design because if if it is then I think voice voiceactivated and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing because if people can activate the television with their voice then they will not be using a they will not be talking into a remote I am sure","The marketing specialist discovered that since a button would be too troublesome, a large percentage of the public would also like to pay for voice recognition on the remote controls. However, the project manager raised certain limitations of voice recognition function, and it also clashed with the intention of designing a simple product." "Marketing: It would be like the ultimate remote And th the last thing here was a an LCD screen So I mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us Not practical an LCD screen though might be something that you know you can shift through pages kind of li the way this PowerPoint is working So that you do not have so many buttons to deal with Project Manager: I do not know what an LCD screen is Marketing: Oh sorry just just a screen like a computer screen S Or like Or Like an alarm clock You would have an LCD versus just a a normal clock Industrial Designer: What what would appear on the screen ? Project Manager: I have no idea still I am sorry Marketing: Oh just like an electronic screen As opposed to just buttons There would be like a little like on Like on the top of a cellphone the the little LCD screen now that is I I do not know exactly what exactly we would put on there I guess the channel that you are on the v the volume setting User Interface: Could it it It would be good if it had the actual programme that was on and what was next But that would probably be Industrial Designer: Like linked in with the teletext or sort of like an teletext at your fingers without having to access that through the television User Interface: Might be quite expensive to do that though Marketing: Well I guess that is something we can all take back to our respective research and finally whoops my personal preferences and thoughts I think our priority really should be unique design we want something that people want in their home Every remote control looks the same so in my opinion it should be userfriendly and unique So the other stuff might be a little too a little too gadgety for some people I th myself voice recognition kind of scares me off So if we are if we are aiming to make this an international university universally accepted product and for all the other thing is like age market I mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds we could go for the fancy stuff But if we want to make fifty million and and have everyone want this remote control we should maybe stick to the basics User Interface: And we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five Euros to spend on a remote control Like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control when they are just starting out Marketing: Right And we have to keep in mind the the reliability of our research I mean you know a sixteen year old boy would say I would pay extra for voice recognition until they realise that is three months allowance so I I think I think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more User Interface: Early twenties that is the kind of age group Project Manager: And if one of the largest or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control I am sure that something like an LCD screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem Industrial Designer: Complicated jus complicating things even fo Mm Marketing: That is it for the market research","The marketing specialist suggested a LCD screen could be installed. The industrial designer thought it would be good to link with the teletext function. Also, the marketing specialist raised points about the target age group. In their assumption, a teenager would not be willing to pay for an expensive remote control, whereas the elder age group would be more willing. The group reached a consensus on catering the product to the age group of early twenties." "Project Manager: Alright and another thing This is for the design the design of the product is that we want to create more of a sense that people know that this is from our company So all the remote controls must have our We will incorporate our logo and colour in in some way So perhaps our logo on the bottom or wherever you feel like it would look good it does not have to be the colour of our of our company but another thing is that we need to we probably would have to have that colour and and logo decided upon I am assuming that we already have one but for the purposes of this meeting I I was not offered a like a type of logo or colour so if that could be somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable Marketing: It is probably R RR in yellow Project Manager: The little R R yellow thing ? Real Reaction ? yes those are the changes so now we need to discuss and come to a decision on our remote control functions of of how this is going to be I am just going to look at my notes for a second we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control So we already know that it will just be for the television","The project manager mentioned that they would love to incorporate the company`s logo and colour into the product design, but it did not necessarily need to be the same colour. Since there was not a plan about which specific colour and logo to use, the industrial designer initiated the colour yellow and it was adopted." "Project Manager: Real Reaction ? yes those are the changes so now we need to discuss and come to a decision on our remote control functions of of how this is going to be I am just going to look at my notes for a second we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control So we already know that it will just be for the television It will It will not have teletext But you know we could discuss those other options that you brought up Genevieve Marketing: so I Are we going to write off the LCD option ? Project Manager: Is that how most people feel about that ? Marketing: So no LCD no teletext and no voice recognition User Interface: I think it would be annoying though if I do not use teletext that much but if it was on your TV you would want to be able to use it if Project Manager: but another thing is that if we are reaching an international crowd I know for one that in North America there is no such thing as teletext so it would be really superfluous I do not know about other countries besides the UK Do you know if anywhere else has it ? Industrial Designer: More research required I think But if Was it a management decision that we are having Project Manager: It was a management decision so it is it is pretty much out of our hands at this point Kay So I guess we are looking at something rather simple Marketing: well I guess just from my findings it looks like we want to minimise buttons And the What was the word they used ? F findability is important Project Manager: I think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had Because I am sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise It is not that expensive to do Industrial Designer: Or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone Like you just a a buzz or something","Firstly, the team decided that the target functions of the remote control would just be for the television. Secondly, they removed functions that were previously discussed, such as teletext, LCD screen and voice recognition. Particularly for the teletext function, they were removing it because they were reaching out to an international crowd and some countries did have such things as teletext. They kept the alarm idea because it was not expensive to actualize." "User Interface: Would you be able to put the little device anywhere ? Because is not our remote control for all TVs so Industrial Designer: Do you mean the the link between the User Interface: with the button that you pressed Industrial Designer: Well if the button was actually on User Interface: C because then it would only be a applicable to one TV set so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere or something Industrial Designer: Maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be not very obtrusive Obviously something small that is that is a good point Project Manager: Then it would not it probably would not be able to use It would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control I guess but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller User Interface: Would it need a battery then ? Project Manager: That is your department you will have to sort that out Industrial Designer: unless some way it could have some universal connection to like the socket the same socket that the TVs supplied from I mean the power for the TV So mm more research into that one Project Manager: you will have to investi Do some research on that alright ? Great alright and I am sure that the glowinthedark fluorescent whatever system is a go ahead Is everyone interested in that ?","The group agreed on making it small, but the findability was a problem. The user interface designer suggested that since the remote control was only linked to one TV set, it could stick to somewhere. And in order to reduce the size, the user interface designer further suggested that the remote control could charge within the socket, so it could obtain electricity which was provided from the TV`s power source." "Project Manager: alright ? Great alright and I am sure that the glowinthedark fluorescent whatever system is a go ahead Is everyone interested in that ? User Interface: I I like the light up suggestion I think that would be better Because you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time so Marketing: It could it could be a tactile thing as well right if w if we are minimising buttons we might be able to make them actually larger And there is something on it S you know like up arrow down arrow for for volume and I do not know what we could do for for channels S User Interface: Well just the numbers could be embossed could not it ? Like raised Marketing: But then the like up button and down button for the channel channel changing User Interface: Just little arrows that you could feel maybe ? Marketing: I just thought that it it might be sucking more battery power if there if it is a light up I am not sure Industrial Designer: And also y Heather you mentioned before like how it should be accessible to everybody so like big b buttons for people you are visually impaired The glowinthedark or light up will not make any difference anyway So like you say tactile might be better because it would be more available to everybody User Interface: That I think that is good Project Manager: Could we somehow We could may possibly sorry incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glowinthedark material Because I d I do not think that glowinthedark material like the actual soft plastic costs that much more than other colours Industrial Designer: No it is not these days","The group liked the fluorescent idea. The user interface designer suggested that since fluorescent lights lost their brightness after a certain time, the group could make this function tactile. They decided to make this function into little arrows that could be felt. They further debated on whether to use a battery to provide power or to use a naturally fluorescent material." "User Interface: No I would not say so Industrial Designer: I mean it is quite easily accessible Marketing: I guess the other option referring to the battery thing is you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something when you are s and then it goes User Interface: That is good that a good idea Marketing: so if if you are like changing the volume during a movie I know I am thinking of mostly when you are watching a movie you turn all the lights off right And you do not want to turn on the lights to turn it down because there is suddenly an explosion and it is going to wake up the baby so if you touch the button it kind of reactivates it User Interface: That that is a good idea Project Manager: Alright we have five minutes left for the meeting but I think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close what was I missed the last moment reading that What were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? Marketing: Oh just if it was kind of the same way that a cell You know how a cellphone will light up for about ten fifteen seconds when you touch a button after having not touched it for a while if instead of a constant light up on the on the remote control if it lights up for ten seconds when it is touched again Project Manager: Mm So it could be any button that would be pressed Marketing: and you you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit and it gives a faint glow So if you have all the lights off in your living room you will you will temporarily see it Because usually you are not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds Project Manager: So do you think that we should do the lighting up thing and the glowinthedark thing and the shape of the numbers ? Do we have to kind of decide what we are going to do with this Industrial Designer: I think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea And I think that is un unique as well I mean I have not seen that And as you are saying like numbers can wear off if they are just sort of like painted on you know printed Project Manager: And it could if it is that softer rubber material it will be maybe better for people with els no what is it called RSI what was it that we were talking about ? instead of like hard buttons did we want to go for the glowinthedark look ? Or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? Like should we do both ? Or we can have one or the other ? Because it might for for our design purposes I mean the lighting up thing might be better because glowinthedark material has a funny kind of colour And it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with Marketing: I was going to say Exactly It the it might be perceived as tacky glowinthedark It is kind of like Eighties neonstyle whereas we are trying to be trendy and fashionable Industrial Designer: there are now like loads or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well which could like link in with the company colours Like it could be blue or green or yellow or like we have just limited t with the just ordinary phosphorescent so Project Manager: Right Alright So we have decided on lighting up things User Interface: I was thinking though if it was glowinthedark you could put the Real Reaction symbol as glowinthedark and then it would be constantly advertised Industrial Designer: Every time the that it lit up you c that could light up as well Project Manager: But with the same thing I mean If you touch the button and then it could be it could be lit up as well Is Are you with that ? Cool Alright So I think that that completes most of our our more practical decisions","The group wanted the lighting up to be a faint glow, so that it would not cause a sudden explosion of light in a dim environment. At the same time, the glowing buttons would be made in the shape of numbers so that the vision-impaired people would be taken care of. Meanwhile, they wished the glow was in neon style so that they could implement the company's colour in it and make it trendy." "Project Manager: And now it is up to designing And making sure that this can be feasible And do you have anything Do you have anything to say ? Marketing: Oh sorry well I was just going to throw out there the thought about personalising the remote control it you because you mentioned face plates So I I do not know if there is something that different you know like five different face plates I do not know if this will start making it more complicated but it could increase the popularity of the of the remote Industrial Designer: Like you can have changeable mobile covers or something Project Manager: Like an iPod or something ? Marketing: Or or like mobile ph And I do not know if we would want to go with like TV show themes or something Like a Bart Simpson faceplate User Interface: and then that would be more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well Marketing: Exactly You could start out with three and if if we hit it big then we can add some on User Interface: That is a good idea Project Manager: I think that we should incorporate that Because that would not be very expensive at all You would just get one mould throw some plastic in it you know Industrial Designer: Interchan And also possible I mean we could gain out of that by advertising certain TV shows or Project Manager: Well that might be com problematic with copyright issues So if it takes off then we will we will we will try that out Industrial Designer: But if we there is We could the environmental factor we did not bring that up again Project Manager: We will have to do more research Like as of yet that has nothing to do with the way it will look does it need to be reached a de Do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? Because we need to investigate the financial implications Does it need to be decided on now ? Or should we Industrial Designer: I think we could probably leave that til later on then Project Manager: Good Alright then Anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? Alright well Let us have lunch and we will discuss this later","The marketing specialist threw out the idea of making the remote control cover changeable and personalized. The marketing specialist further suggested that they could incorporate the TV theme elements such as Bart Simpson into the cover. However, it might raise a question about copyright issues so they decided to delay the discussion." "PhD I: so nonvocalsound we had a discussion Don and Liz and I had discussion last week about how to proceed with you know with Don s work and and and one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we are since we now have Thilo s segmenter and it works you know amazingly well we should actually basically re evaluate the recognition results using you know without cheating on the segmentations And that should be fairly PhD E: And how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? The references for for pause those segments ? PhD I: Oh OK So there s actually Why do you ask ? No actually NIST has m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a a time You know you basically just give two pause time marked sequences of words and it computes the the comment comment you know the the th PhD B: It does all the work for you PhD I: it does all the work for you So it we just and we use that actually in Hub five to do the scoring So what we ve been using so far was sort of a pause simplified version of the scoring And we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here PhD E: So basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis PhD G: Maybe the pause start of your speech and the end of it PhD I: Right It does time constrained word alignment So So that should be possible I mean that should not be a problem so that was the one thing and the other was that What was the other problem ? Oh ! That Thilo wanted to use pause the recognizer alignments to train up his speech detector so that we could use you know there would not be so much hand labelling needed to to generate training data for for the speech detector PhD E: I m just in progress of of doing that So PhD I: And I think you are in the process of doing that So you can comment you can PhD B: It will give you a lot more data too Will not it ? PhD E: So it s basically s I think eight meetings or something which which I m using and it s before it was twenty minutes of one meeting So should comment be a little bit better PhD I: That will not be perfect the alignments are not perfect but it s probably still better to have all this extra data than PhD G: Actually I had a question about that If you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there s no speech that would be useful pause for us to know So PhD E: There were the false alarms PhD G: So r right now you get f fal you know false false speech regions when it s just like breath or something like that and I would be interested to know the wha if you retrain do those actually go down or not ? Because pause of PhD E: I will can make an can like make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one and pause then PhD G: just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens Professor D: another one that we had on Adam s agenda pause that definitely involved you was s something about SmartKom ? Grad F: Right So Rob Porzel eh Porzel ? and the Porzel and the SmartKom group are collecting some dialogues Basically they have one person sitting in here looking at a picture and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere And they are doing a travel task And it involves starting I believe starting with a It s it s always the wizard but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a speech generation system PhD E: Actually it s changed to a synthesis for for the first part now Grad F: and then it goes to a real wizard and they are evaluating that And they wanted to use this equipment and so the w question came up is well here s some more data Should this be part of the corpus or not ? And my attitude was yes because there might be people who are using this corpus for pause acoustics as opposed to just for language or also for dialogue of various sorts so it s not a meeting Right ? Because it s two people and they are not face to face Professor D: Wait a minute So I just wanted to understand it cuz I I m had not quite followed this process So it s wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does not know that it s a machi not a machine ? PhD I: Actually actually w w the the We do this I do not know who came up with it but I think it s a really clever idea We simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session and so then after that the person s told that they are now talking to a to a human PhD E: It s a human operator Grad F: But of course they do not know that it s the same person both times PhD I: So we we collect we collect both human computer and human human data essentially in the same session Professor D: You might want to try collecting it the other way around sometime saying that th the computer is not up yet and then so then you can separate it out whether it s the beginning or end kind of effects Postdoc A: That s a good idea Grad F: `` I have to go now You can talk to the computer `` PhD B: It s a lot more believable too if you tell them that they are the computer part is running on a Windows machine And the whole breakdown thing kind of makes sense PhD I: O Just just reboot it Grad F: Abort abort retry fail ? PhD G: So did they actually save the far field pause data ? Grad F: Well this was this was the question PhD G: Cuz at first they were not they were not sa Grad F: So so they were saying they were not going to and I said `` well that s silly if if we are going to try to do it for a corpus there might be people who are interested in acoustics `` PhD E: projector comment We were not saying we are not pause doing it We wer we just wanted to do PhD I: No the the question is do we save one or two far field channels or all of them ? Grad F: I I see no reason not to do all of them That that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies it s nice to have the same for every recording Professor D: So what is the purpose of this recording ? This is to get acoustic and language model training data for SmartKom OK PhD I: It s to be traini to b training data and development data for the SmartKom pause system PhD G: Maybe we can have him vary the microphones too or they are different s speakers Grad F: Right So so so for their usage they do not need anything PhD E: But but I m not sure about the legal aspect of of that Is is there some contract with SmartKom or something about the data ? What they or is is that our data which we are collecting here Professor D: We ve never signed anything that said that we could not use anything that we did PhD I: We were not supposed to collect any data PhD E: So th th that was the question Professor D: No that s not a problem I L look it seems to me that if we are doing it anyway and we are doing it for these these purposes that we have and we have these distant mikes we definitely should re should save it all as long as we ve got disk space and disk is pretty cheap So should we save it ? Now th So we save it because it s it it s potentially useful And now what do we do with it is is a s separate question I mean anybody who s training something up could choose to put it eh to you include this or not I I would not say it was part of the meetings corpus It is not But it s some other data we have and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can Right ? Grad F: So it s It it I guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus So if at UW they start recording two person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? Professor D: I think it s I I think I th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key Grad F: Well this has two or more people conversing with each other They are just not face to face PhD G: What if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? Professor D: No it does not Right ? It has Grad F: I mean that was my intention PhD G: And then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people will not Grad F: That was my intention So so s so part of the reason that I wanted to bring this up is do we want to handle it as a special case or do we want to fold it in PhD G: and Just give it a title Professor D: I think it is a s Grad F: we give everyone who s involved as their own user ID give it session I Ds let all the tools that handle Meeting Recorder handle it or do we want to special case it ? And if we were going to special case it who s going to do that ? PhD I: Well it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure since we do not want to duplicate things unnecessarily But as far as distributing it we should not label it as part of this meeting corpus We should let it be its own corp Postdoc A: Well it s it well because Grad F: I do not see why not It s just a different topic Postdoc A: I ha I have an extra point which is the naturalness issue Because we have like meetings that have a reason That s one of the reasons that we were talking about this And and those and this sounds like it s more of an experimental setup It s got a different purpose Professor D: It s scenario based it s it s human computer interface it s really pretty different But I I I have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they are going to do but I do not think i it it does not match anything that we ve described about meetings Whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at UW and so forth really does They are actually talking Grad F: OK So w so what does that mean for how we are going to organize things ? Professor D: You can you can Again as as I think Andreas was saying if you want to use the same tools and the same conventions there s no problem with that It s just that it s you know different directory it s called something different it s you know It is different You can not just fold it in as if it s I mean digits are different too Right ? Grad F: but those are folded in PhD I: It might also be potentially confusing Grad F: and it s just you just mark the transcripts differently So so one option is you fold it in and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction rather than another type of interaction Professor D: Well I don I would not call reading digits `` meetings `` Right ? I mean we we we were doing Grad F: Well but but I put it under the same directory tree You know it s in `` user doctor speech data MR `` PhD G: Can we just have a directory called like `` other stuff `` ? And Well or I do not know Professor D: I mean I do not care what directory tree you have it under PhD G: And and just store it there Professor D: Right ? I mean that s just a Grad F: OK My preference is to have a single procedure so that I do not have to think too much about things And just have a marking Professor D: O You you can use whatever procedure you want that s p convenient for you Grad F: If we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure and someone has to do that Professor D: All I m saying is that there s no way that we are going to tell people that reading digits is meetings And similarly we are not going to tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings Those are not meetings But if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree knock yourself out PhD B: There s a couple other questions that I have too and and pause one of them is what about consent issues ? And the other one is what about transcription ? Are ? PhD E: Transcription is done in Munich PhD B: OK So we do not have to worry about transcribing it ? Grad F: So w we will hafta worry about format PhD I: That s a that s another argument to keep it separate because it s going to follow the SmartKom transcription conventions and not the ICSI meeting transcription conventions Grad F: OK Well I did not realize that That s that s a Professor D: Good point But I m sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things Do we h do we have American born folk reading German German pla place names and so forth ? Is that ?","The discussion centered on the extent to which the recordings should be segmented for the corpus and which recordings should be included in the corpus. The team expressed that it would be helpful to filter out breath and non-verbal sounds. It also expressed that for two person conversations and transcripts that do not follow their general meeting setup, it could create a different directory." "Grad F: We are about we are about half halfway through our disk right now PhD I: That was one of our concerns PhD B: Are we only half ? I thought we were more than that Grad F: We are probably a little more than that because we are using up some space that we should not be on So once everything gets converted over to the disks we are supposed to be using we will be probably seventy five percent PhD B: Well when I was looking for space for Thilo I found one disk that had I think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen And everything else was sorta committed Grad F: Were those backed up or non backed up ? PhD B: Those were non backed up Grad F: Right So that s different PhD B: S oh you are talking about backed up Grad F: I m much more concerned about the backed up The non backed up PhD B: I have not looked to see how much of that we have Grad F: i is cheap I mean if we need to we can buy a disk hang it off a s workstation If it s not backed up the sysadmins do not care too much Professor D: So I mean pretty much anytime we need a disk we can get it at the rate that we are PhD I: You can I should not be saying this but you can just you know since the back ups are every night you can recycle the backed up diskspace Grad F: But that s that s pause that s risky Professor D: You really should not be saying PhD I: I did not say that I did not say that Professor D: Da we had allowed Dave to listen to these these recordings I me and there s been this conversation going on about getting another file server and and we can do that We will take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk I guess Grad F: It s really the back up issue rather than the file server issue PhD I: Well I think comment I think there s an argument for having you know you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that pause is very rarely accessed and then have a fast new file server for data that is heavily accessed Grad F: My understanding is the issue is not really the file server We could always put more disks on PhD I: It s the back it s the back up capaci Grad F: It s the back up system So which is near saturation apparently So PhD B: I think I think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines And we ve got you know fifty machines trying to access data off of Abbott at once Grad F: Well we are alright for now because the network s so slow PhD I: I mean I think I think we ve raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it but the What about putting the stuff on like C CD ROM or DVD or something ? Grad F: That was me I was the one who said it was not reliable The they they wear out PhD I: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? Or from being pause read and read ? Grad F: No Read and write do not hurt them too much unless you scratch them But the r the write once and the read writes do not last So you do not wa you do not want to put ir un reproduceable data pause on them PhD B: Wear out after what amount of time ? PhD I: But if that then you would think you would pause hear much more clamoring about data loss Professor D: I mean all the L Grad F: I I do not know many people who do it on CD I mean they are the most fo Professor D: LDC all the LDC distributions are on CD ROM Grad F: They are on CD but they are not tha that s not the only source They have them on disk And they burn new ones every once in a while But if you go if you go k PhD I: But you know we have PhD G: But we have like thirty pause you know from pause ten years ago ? Professor D: We have all sorts of CD ROMs from a long time ago PhD G: Ninety one and they are still all fine Grad H: Were they burned or were they pressed ? PhD G: both I ve burned them and they are still OK Grad F: The the pressed ones last for PhD G: I mean usually they are Grad F: well not forever they ve been finding even those degrade But the burned ones I mean when I say two or three years what I m saying is that I have had disks which are gone in a year On the average it will probably be three or four years But I I you do not want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails And they do if you have them professionally pressed y you know they are good for decades PhD I: So how about ? So so how about putting them on that plus like on a on on DAT or some other medium that is not risky ? Grad F: I think th we can already put them on tape And the tape is hi is very reliable So the the only issue is then pause if we need access to them So that s fine f if we do not need access to them PhD I: Right Well if if if you if they last Say they actually last like five years huh in in the typical case and and occasionally you might need to recreate one and then you get your tape out but otherwise you do not Can not you just you just put them on ? Grad H: So you just archive it on the tape and then put it on CD as well ? Grad F: Oh So you are just saying put them on C Ds for normal access I mean you can do that but that s pretty annoying because the C Ds are so slow PhD B: What would be nice is a system that re burned the C Ds every year PhD G: H everytime it was a `` going to `` `` going to die `` Grad F: Well I mean the C Ds are are an op PhD I: It s like like dynamic ra DRAM PhD G: Just before they be before it goes bad it burns them in Grad F: The the CD is an alternative to tape ICSI already has a perfectly good tape system and it s more reliable Professor D: You know I would think Grad F: So for archiving we will just use tape PhD I: One one thing I do not understand is if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once then it s backed up once and the back up system should never have to bother with it more than once Grad F: Well regardless Well first of all there was a problem with the archive in that I was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown because they were not getting set correctly every once in a while and I was just doing a minus R star not realizing that that caused pause it to be re backed up But normally you are correct But even without that the back up system is becoming saturated PhD I: But but this back up system is smart enough to figure out that something has not changed and does not need to be pause backed up again Professor D: The b I think th the at least the once tha that you put it on it would it would comment kill that Grad F: Sure but we still have enough changed that the nightly back ups are starting to take too long PhD I: OK So so then if So so then let s Grad F: It has nothing to do with the meeting It s just the general ICSI back up system is becoming saturated PhD I: Right OK Right So what if we buy what what do they call these pause high density ? Grad F: Well why do not you have this have a this conversation with Dave Johnson tha rather than with me ? PhD I: No no Because this is pause maybe something that we can do without involving Dave and and putting more burden on him How about we buy one of these high density tape drives ? And we put the data actually on non backed up disks And we do our own back up once and for all all and then and we do not have to bother this up ? Grad F: Actually you know we could do that just with the tape with the current tape PhD I: I do not know what the these tapes at some point these I do not know What kind of tape drive is it ? Grad F: I do not know but it s an automatic robot so it s very convenient Professor D: Wh The o the one that we have ? Grad F: You just run a program to restore them PhD I: But it might interfere with their back up schedule Professor D: No we have s we Do not we have our own ? Something wi th that does not that is not used by the back up gang ? Do not we have something downstairs ? PhD B: What kind of tape drive ? Grad F: Well but no but Andreas s point is a good one And we do not have to do anything ourselves to do that They are already right now on tape Right So your your point is and I think it s a good one that we could just get more disk and put it there PhD I: Mmm On an XH X X whatever partition Grad F: That s not a bad idea Professor D: that s basically what I was going to say is that a disk is is so cheap it s es essentially you know close to free And the only thing that costs is the back up pause issue eh to first order Grad F: So once it s on tape Professor D: And we can take care of that by putting it on non back pause up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape Grad F: I think that s a good idea PhD G: So who s going to do these back ups ? The people that collect it ? Grad F: Well I will talk to Dave and and see what th how nonvocalsound what the best way of doing that is PhD B: It s probably going to n Grad F: There s a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you and that s probably the right way to do it PhD B: and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings PhD G: That s what I m wondering if Grad F: Well pause we are g we are going to automate that My intention is to pause do a script that will do everything PhD G: I mean you do not have to physically put a tape in the drive ? Grad F: No It s all tape robot PhD G: Or s ? s ? comment Oh OK Grad F: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command PhD G: So it s just Oh OK PhD I: but then you are effectively using the resources of the back up system Or is that a different tape robot ? PhD G: But not at the same time Grad F: But y but you would be anyway PhD B: He s saying get a whole different drive Grad F: But there s no reason to do that It we already have it there and it it s PhD I: Well I m saying is i if you go to Dave and and and ask him `` can I use your tape robot ? `` he will say `` well pause that s going to screw up our back up operation `` Grad F: No we will not He will say `` if if that means pause that it s not going to be backed up standardly great `` Professor D: He I Dave has has promoted this in the past So I do not think he s actually against it Grad F: It s it s definitely no problem PhD G: What about if the times overlap with the normal back up time ? Grad F: it s it s just it s just a utility which queues up It just queues it up and and when it s available it will copy it And then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can you know do it a a few days later or whatever you want to do after you confirm that it s really backed up Postdoc A: You saying NW archive ? Yep comment And if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back ups Grad F: That s what it is Postdoc A: And then there would not be this extra load PhD I: Well it if he you have to put the data on a on a non backed up disk to begin with Postdoc A: Well but you can have it NW archive to you can have a non backed up disk NW archived PhD I: So that so that otherwise you do not you Postdoc A: and it will never show up on the nightly back ups Grad F: Right And then it never Right Which I m sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy So I think that s a good idea That s what we should do So that means we will probably want to convert all all those files filesystems to non backed up media","The team felt that the current file system they were using was running out of space, specifically back-up capacity. They needed to figure out a way to back-up the data they were collecting. They decided that the tape system that ICSI has is pretty reliable. But they needed to discuss the matter with the system administrator." "Grad F: So it s It it I guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus So if at UW they start recording two person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? Professor D: I think it s I I think I th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key Grad F: Well this has two or more people conversing with each other They are just not face to face PhD G: What if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? Professor D: No it does not Right ? It has Grad F: I mean that was my intention PhD G: And then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people will not Grad F: That was my intention So so s so part of the reason that I wanted to bring this up is do we want to handle it as a special case or do we want to fold it in PhD G: and Just give it a title Professor D: I think it is a s Grad F: we give everyone who s involved as their own user ID give it session I Ds let all the tools that handle Meeting Recorder handle it or do we want to special case it ? And if we were going to special case it who s going to do that ? PhD I: Well it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure since we do not want to duplicate things unnecessarily But as far as distributing it we should not label it as part of this meeting corpus We should let it be its own corp Postdoc A: Well it s it well because Grad F: I do not see why not It s just a different topic Postdoc A: I ha I have an extra point which is the naturalness issue Because we have like meetings that have a reason That s one of the reasons that we were talking about this And and those and this sounds like it s more of an experimental setup It s got a different purpose Professor D: It s scenario based it s it s human computer interface it s really pretty different But I I I have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they are going to do but I do not think i it it does not match anything that we ve described about meetings Whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at UW and so forth really does They are actually talking Grad F: OK So w so what does that mean for how we are going to organize things ? Professor D: You can you can Again as as I think Andreas was saying if you want to use the same tools and the same conventions there s no problem with that It s just that it s you know different directory it s called something different it s you know It is different You can not just fold it in as if it s I mean digits are different too Right ? Grad F: but those are folded in PhD I: It might also be potentially confusing Grad F: and it s just you just mark the transcripts differently So so one option is you fold it in and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction rather than another type of interaction Professor D: Well I don I would not call reading digits `` meetings `` Right ? I mean we we we were doing Grad F: Well but but I put it under the same directory tree You know it s in `` user doctor speech data MR `` PhD G: Can we just have a directory called like `` other stuff `` ? And Well or I do not know Professor D: I mean I do not care what directory tree you have it under PhD G: And and just store it there Professor D: Right ? I mean that s just a Grad F: OK My preference is to have a single procedure so that I do not have to think too much about things And just have a marking Professor D: O You you can use whatever procedure you want that s p convenient for you Grad F: If we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure and someone has to do that Professor D: All I m saying is that there s no way that we are going to tell people that reading digits is meetings And similarly we are not going to tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings Those are not meetings But if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree knock yourself out PhD B: There s a couple other questions that I have too","The participants were skeptical that a two person conversation in the hallway constituted a meeting for their purposes. They thought that it would be okay to include this kind of data in their corpus for future researchers, but they should separate it. The Professor has a strong opinion that these interactions were not actually meetings." "PhD I: and and and one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we are since we now have Thilo s segmenter and it works you know amazingly well we should actually basically re evaluate the recognition results using you know without cheating on the segmentations And that should be fairly PhD E: And how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? The references for for pause those segments ? PhD I: Oh OK So there s actually Why do you ask ? No actually NIST has m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a a time You know you basically just give two pause time marked sequences of words and it computes the the comment comment you know the the th PhD B: It does all the work for you PhD I: it does all the work for you So it we just and we use that actually in Hub five to do the scoring So what we ve been using so far was sort of a pause simplified version of the scoring And we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here PhD E: So basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis PhD G: Maybe the pause start of your speech and the end of it PhD I: Right It does time constrained word alignment So So that should be possible I mean that should not be a problem so that was the one thing and the other was that What was the other problem ? Oh ! That Thilo wanted to use pause the recognizer alignments to train up his speech detector so that we could use you know there would not be so much hand labelling needed to to generate training data for for the speech detector PhD E: I m just in progress of of doing that So PhD I: And I think you are in the process of doing that",PhD I thought that the team should re-evaluate recognition without cheating on the segmentation. PhD I explained to the team that they had so far been using a simplified version of the scoring and brought up that Thilo wanted to use recognizer alignments to train his speech detector. He was not sure how much hand labeling would be needed to generate data for the detector. "Grad F: i is cheap I mean if we need to we can buy a disk hang it off a s workstation If it s not backed up the sysadmins do not care too much Professor D: So I mean pretty much anytime we need a disk we can get it at the rate that we are PhD I: You can I should not be saying this but you can just you know since the back ups are every night you can recycle the backed up diskspace Grad F: But that s that s pause that s risky Professor D: You really should not be saying PhD I: I did not say that I did not say that Professor D: Da we had allowed Dave to listen to these these recordings I me and there s been this conversation going on about getting another file server and and we can do that We will take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk I guess Grad F: It s really the back up issue rather than the file server issue PhD I: Well I think comment I think there s an argument for having you know you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that pause is very rarely accessed and then have a fast new file server for data that is heavily accessed Grad F: My understanding is the issue is not really the file server We could always put more disks on PhD I: It s the back it s the back up capaci Grad F: It s the back up system So which is near saturation apparently So PhD B: I think I think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines And we ve got you know fifty machines trying to access data off of Abbott at once Grad F: Well we are alright for now because the network s so slow PhD I: I mean I think I think we ve raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it but the What about putting the stuff on like C CD ROM or DVD or something ? Grad F: That was me I was the one who said it was not reliable The they they wear out PhD I: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? Or from being pause read and read ? Grad F: No Read and write do not hurt them too much unless you scratch them But the r the write once and the read writes do not last So you do not wa you do not want to put ir un reproduceable data pause on them PhD B: Wear out after what amount of time ? PhD I: But if that then you would think you would pause hear much more clamoring about data loss",The professor expressed that the team should not recycle backed up disk space and explained the rate at which they could acquire disks. He was surprised that burned CD's wear out after a year or two. He thought that putting the data on tape was a good idea. "PhD I: I mean I think I think we ve raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it but the What about putting the stuff on like C CD ROM or DVD or something ? Grad F: That was me I was the one who said it was not reliable The they they wear out PhD I: But they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? Or from being pause read and read ? Grad F: No Read and write do not hurt them too much unless you scratch them But the r the write once and the read writes do not last So you do not wa you do not want to put ir un reproduceable data pause on them PhD B: Wear out after what amount of time ? PhD I: But if that then you would think you would pause hear much more clamoring about data loss Professor D: I mean all the L Grad F: I I do not know many people who do it on CD I mean they are the most fo Professor D: LDC all the LDC distributions are on CD ROM Grad F: They are on CD but they are not tha that s not the only source They have them on disk And they burn new ones every once in a while But if you go if you go k PhD I: But you know we have PhD G: But we have like thirty pause you know from pause ten years ago ? Professor D: We have all sorts of CD ROMs from a long time ago PhD G: Ninety one and they are still all fine Grad H: Were they burned or were they pressed ? PhD G: both I ve burned them and they are still OK Grad F: The the pressed ones last for PhD G: I mean usually they are Grad F: well not forever they ve been finding even those degrade But the burned ones I mean when I say two or three years what I m saying is that I have had disks which are gone in a year On the average it will probably be three or four years But I I you do not want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails And they do if you have them professionally pressed y you know they are good for decades PhD I: So how about ? So so how about putting them on that plus like on a on on DAT or some other medium that is not risky ? Grad F: I think th we can already put them on tape And the tape is hi is very reliable So the the only issue is then pause if we need access to them So that s fine f if we do not need access to them PhD I: Right Well if if if you if they last Say they actually last like five years huh in in the typical case and and occasionally you might need to recreate one and then you get your tape out but otherwise you do not Can not you just you just put them on ? Grad H: So you just archive it on the tape and then put it on CD as well ? Grad F: Oh So you are just saying put them on C Ds for normal access I mean you can do that but that s pretty annoying because the C Ds are so slow PhD B: What would be nice is a system that re burned the C Ds every year PhD G: H everytime it was a `` going to `` `` going to die `` Grad F: Well I mean the C Ds are are an op","PhD I suggested putting the data on a CD-ROM but was informed that the data gets lost in a few years. PhD F expressed that it was generally a bad idea to have a copy on a medium that failed. Professionally pressed discs last longer, but they would be burning them in-house. The idea of re-burning the CD's each year was also not adopted." "Project Manager: welcome back after lunch I hope you had a good lunch together For this meeting the main agenda to discuss about the conceptual design meeting and the agenda will be the opening and that is the product manager or secretary that is me and the presentations from the Christine and Agnes and from Mister Ed And finally in this meeting we have to decide and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and the functional design So we have forty minutes I think it is little bit low but I I hope we can finish it up so I will handle to the the functional team to the Christine to discuss about the components concept Industrial Designer: So if you could open the PowerPoint presentation Project Manager: You are number two Kay Industrial Designer: Components design there we go So can we put it in slide show mode ? Right here is that little that one yes please I will take the mouse So we were looking he specifically at the components the following components the case the power supply the means of communications with the television set In instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition you have to have microphone well no you do not actually I have not have to have microphone in the device but maybe you do have it a a way it has to it has to hear the speaker and so it could be in the television set could be in the device but somewhere you have to put the microphone and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it is gets lost so the other w thing that we So Our method for going about this is we have looked at the histo hi historical record what is worked what has not and then we also we wanted to evaluate some new materials and we contacted manufacturing for their input because course we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did not have the technologies or capabilities to offer us so this is the approach that we took during our our research So for the case we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design Course you know I wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable but that does not seem to b be one of the choic nonoption we can we can really seriously explore so then we were thinking about rubber but unfortunately that is been eliminated because of the heat factor and th there might be some problems with the m how it is goes with the board and then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it is brittle it gets brittle after a while so we still had titanium and and wood available but unfortunately titaniums also been eliminated the m people in manufacturing said that you could not make d curved cases out of titanium although how Apple did it with th PowerBook I am not su quite sure but nevertheless they have eliminated all of our options except wood User Interface: At least it is environmentally friendly Industrial Designer: So this is our finding And a as she said it is an environmentally friendly material so we are we are currently proposing we will get to all my personal preferences in just a second So then there is this other matter of the chips and well we could use a simple design on the board these simple chips but that is only works for the bu you do not get very much intelligence with this simple one And then there was the regular which I regret that I have forgotten exactly why I am eliminating that one the other option was this advanced chip on print and we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender which w member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip And manufacturing has told us that they have recently developed a a sensor and a speaker that would be integrated into this advanced chip on print so we we now jumping right to our personal preferences I I would really think we should you know use some of some really exotic woods like you know well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kind of think of some trees and some nice woods I think that people will might really want to design their own cases you see they could do sort of a this threedimensional design on the internet and then they could submit their orders kind of like you submit a custom car order you know and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that and then I think we should go with the solar cells as well as the microphone and speaker on the advanced chip So this is the findings of our research and my recommendations for the new remote control w would be to have have it be made out of wood Do you have any problems with that ? Project Manager: Can you go back one slide ? Industrial Designer: I am not sure how do I Oh I know let us see Let us go back up here Project Manager: Yes question what is mean exactly advanced chip on print ? What is the meaning of that ? Industrial Designer: I think it is a multiple chip design and it is maybe printed on to the circuit board I could find out more about that before the next fi next meeting Project Manager: is it means it is on the is it on a microproc microprocessor based or Industrial Designer: I do not know but I will find out more at our next meeting Project Manager: tha that would be great so if you find out from the technology background so that would be good User Interface: Why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? Industrial Designer: Because it gets brittle cracks We want we expect these these remote controls to be around for several hundred years So Good ex Good expression Marketing: good expression Well after us Industrial Designer: I do not know speak for yourself I am planning to be around for a while User Interface: I think with wood though you would run into the same types of problems would not you I mean it chips it if you drop it it is I am not su Project Manager: So so you are not convinced about the the wood yes Marketing: Actually I am ready to sell it User Interface: I think if you re if you use really good quality wood then it might work Marketing: I am ready to sell it Industrial Designer: You think ? And you could you could sell oils with it to take care of it User Interface: but you can not just use Marketing: No y no no no the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard extremely hard wood but there are some very pretty woods out there Industrial Designer: Well I am glad you Marketing: That is actually very innovative idea Industrial Designer: Sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face Marketing: Well it is actually a very innovative n different idea that you know you can choose your colour of wood your type of wood I mean it is each person is going to have their own personalised individualised speech recognition remote control in wood that is not on the market Project Manager: so it it is looks good the the design the functional design what about yo you ? User Interface: in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own Project Manager: Yes in t yes in term in terms of comments first Industrial Designer: She works in the cubicle next to me so she is she was already a little bit prepared for this User Interface: I think we can get the quality materials then it should not influence the design principles too much which you will see with my presentation One thing we would have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having Industrial Designer: Mmhmm you would not want to have to have splinters in your hand while you are using your User Interface: for example So have to see how kidfriendly it is and and all that Industrial Designer: It is really good if your dog gets ahold of it they can use it for teething Marketing: They do that anyway with the rubber and plastic Industrial Designer: they do it with other materials as well Marketing: so and chew them up And chew them up Project Manager: then let us move to Agnes","The group came to an agreement regarding a wooden case with rubber buttons and also determined on using the advanced chip on print which could integrate a sensor and a speaker. They also decided to install a microphone in the device so that the remote control could make sounds when it got lost. The group discussed over cost-efficiency of a display, whose adoption still remained to be decided." "Industrial Designer: and so it could be in the television set could be in the device but somewhere you have to put the microphone and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it is gets lost so the other w thing that we So Our method for going about this is we have looked at the histo hi historical record what is worked what has not and then we also we wanted to evaluate some new materials and we contacted manufacturing for their input because course we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did not have the technologies or capabilities to offer us so this is the approach that we took during our our research So for the case we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design Course you know I wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable but that does not seem to b be one of the choic nonoption we can we can really seriously explore so then we were thinking about rubber but unfortunately that is been eliminated because of the heat factor and th there might be some problems with the m how it is goes with the board and then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it is brittle it gets brittle after a while so we still had titanium and and wood available but unfortunately titaniums also been eliminated the m people in manufacturing said that you could not make d curved cases out of titanium although how Apple did it with th PowerBook I am not su quite sure but nevertheless they have eliminated all of our options except wood User Interface: At least it is environmentally friendly Industrial Designer: So this is our finding And a as she said it is an environmentally friendly material so we are we are currently proposing we will get to all my personal preferences in just a second So then there is this other matter of the chips and well we could use a simple design on the board these simple chips but that is only works for the bu you do not get very much intelligence with this simple one And then there was the regular which I regret that I have forgotten exactly why I am eliminating that one the other option was this advanced chip on print and we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender which w member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip And manufacturing has told us that they have recently developed a a sensor and a speaker that would be integrated into this advanced chip on print so we we now jumping right to our personal preferences I I would really think we should you know use some of some really exotic woods like you know well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kind of think of some trees and some nice woods I think that people will might really want to design their own cases you see they could do sort of a this threedimensional design on the internet and then they could submit their orders kind of like you submit a custom car order you know and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that and then I think we should go with the solar cells as well as the microphone and speaker on the advanced chip So this is the findings of our research and my recommendations for the new remote control w would be to have have it be made out of wood Do you have any problems with that ? Project Manager: Can you go back one slide ? Industrial Designer: I am not sure how do I Oh I know let us see Let us go back up here Project Manager: Yes question what is mean exactly advanced chip on print ? What is the meaning of that ? Industrial Designer: I think it is a multiple chip design and it is maybe printed on to the circuit board I could find out more about that before the next fi next meeting Project Manager: is it means it is on the is it on a microproc microprocessor based or Industrial Designer: I do not know but I will find out more at our next meeting Project Manager: tha that would be great so if you find out from the technology background so that would be good User Interface: Why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? Industrial Designer: Because it gets brittle cracks We want we expect these these remote controls to be around for several hundred years So Good ex Good expression Marketing: good expression Well after us Industrial Designer: I do not know speak for yourself I am planning to be around for a while User Interface: I think with wood though you would run into the same types of problems would not you I mean it chips it if you drop it it is I am not su Project Manager: So so you are not convinced about the the wood yes Marketing: Actually I am ready to sell it User Interface: I think if you re if you use really good quality wood then it might work Marketing: I am ready to sell it Industrial Designer: You think ? And you could you could sell oils with it to take care of it User Interface: but you can not just use Marketing: No y no no no the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard extremely hard wood but there are some very pretty woods out there Industrial Designer: Well I am glad you Marketing: That is actually very innovative idea Industrial Designer: Sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face Marketing: Well it is actually a very innovative n different idea that you know you can choose your colour of wood your type of wood I mean it is each person is going to have their own personalised individualised speech recognition remote control in wood that is not on the market Project Manager: so it it is looks good the the design the functional design what about yo you ? User Interface: in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own Project Manager: Yes in t yes in term in terms of comments first Industrial Designer: She works in the cubicle next to me so she is she was already a little bit prepared for this User Interface: I think we can get the quality materials then it should not influence the design principles too much which you will see with my presentation One thing we would have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having Industrial Designer: Mmhmm you would not want to have to have splinters in your hand while you are using your User Interface: for example So have to see how kidfriendly it is and and all that Industrial Designer: It is really good if your dog gets ahold of it they can use it for teething Marketing: They do that anyway with the rubber and plastic Industrial Designer: they do it with other materials as well Marketing: so and chew them up And chew them up","The group showed approval regarding the concept of a wooden case, because Industrial Designer, during his presentation, evaluated different materials on the basis of manufacturing input as well as the conceptual features of the product. After eliminating rubber, plastic and titanium, the only option left was wood. Not only is it environmental-friendly, but the users could also have their customized curving on the case. But Industrial Designer suggested that the buttons should be made out of rubber." "Project Manager: so we can have a tieup with who the do the fabric for the different electronics items then we can have a business tieup and to get to cut the cost to sell more So but le let us decide first about the components concept and interface concept if is acceptable for both of you what Ed was talking And your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple so User Interface: Mmhmm I think it depends I mean I think it is a good idea but we need to really think about how useful it is going to be because theoretically with the TV you already have a big display right in front of you So if we are trying to keep costs down then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go I mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for very specifically what it would be used for because if it is only used for one little thing then putting in a big display case or a big display that is probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever may not be the most costefficient way to go but that is just sort of speculation I mean Industrial Designer: What do you think Ed ? Do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed do you know how much it costs to to add a little display like this ? Do you want to take an action item to go find out ? Marketing: no p spec It is because we have to find out cost on it no that is no problem I am here for the pushing it after it is made Once we get a price on it then we can market it","User Interface proposed to reconsider the necessity of adopting a display in consideration of two factors. One was that the television screen already made a big display, the other was that the cost-efficiency of a display was doubtful. In view of the cost constraint, sacrificing the display feature could be a reasonable option. Project Manager then asked Marketing to conduct research on this subject before making the final decision about the adoption of the display." "User Interface: I think so that is the one So it is a very short presentation because I am actually going to draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide which basically shows sort of I took the ideas that we were talking about last time and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch volume and channel control the menu access button ergonomic shape which I completely agree with Christines idea to have it sort of molded so it is slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls And actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea is that people can actually do sort of quasimeasurements on their hand size so if someone has larger hands you have a wider remote control Industrial Designer: Right my hand is different size than yours for example User Interface: So that is actually a really good idea for customi customisability one thing I thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it just like you have on flip phones so that you do not have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it especially if you have little kids around they are not pressing the buttons while you are trying to watch a TV show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off And also you had issues with the batteries running out so I thought maybe we could put a little battery lifelight on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die And in terms of invisible features audio and tactile feedback on button presses and like you said speech recognition So in terms of what this thing would actually look like Despite working in interface design I am not the greatest artist in the world so you will have to forgive me You would have something like this with an onoff switch fairly big sort of in the corner and by itself so you do not accidentally turn your TV off while you are trying to manoeuvre other buttons And then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for oops channels and volume sort of for surfing channels and then volume so the volume would be the up and down because volume goes up and down and then channels left to right And then here you would have your sort of standard telephonish number pad And then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your TV and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control So that if the user does not want to use their voice they can just turn it off and you do not have the remote control accidentally changing things on you so again you can have a little LCD light somewhere the flip thing and Have I forgotten anything ? I do not think so So as you can see it is a very very simple design which is one of the things I really wanted to keep is keep it simple not have too many buttons not have too many functionalities thrown into it Think the design can pretty much carry over to everything although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different","User Interface presented a general layout of remote control functionalities. The ergonomic shape of the remote control could raise product customizability. User Interface proposed to incorporate a flip screen and to add a LCD light to show battery life. User Interface also gave suggestions on possible positioning of the key pad. To summarize, User Interface preferred the design to be simple and clear." User Interface: so I thought maybe we could put a little battery lifelight on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die And in terms of invisible features audio and tactile feedback on button presses and like you said speech recognition So in terms of what this thing would actually look like Despite working in interface design I am not the greatest artist in the world so you will have to forgive me You would have something like this with an onoff switch fairly big sort of in the corner and by itself so you do not accidentally turn your TV off while you are trying to manoeuvre other buttons And then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for oops channels and volume sort of for surfing channels and then volume so the volume would be the up and down because volume goes up and down and then channels left to right And then here you would have your sort of standard telephonish number pad And then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your TV and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control So that if the user does not want to use their voice they can just turn it off and you do not have the remote control accidentally changing things on you so again you can have a little LCD light somewhere the flip thing and Have I forgotten anything ? I do not think so So as you can see it is a very very simple design which is one of the things I really wanted to keep is keep it simple not have too many buttons not have too many functionalities thrown into it Think the design can pretty much carry over to everything although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different,"User Interface proposed that buttons, when pressed, gave audio or tactile feedback so that users were aware that the device understood his message. For instance, speech recognition could be an option. Besides, voice control should be able to be turned off so that the remote control wouldn't accidentally send instructions to televisions." User Interface: So that is actually a really good idea for customi customisability one thing I thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it just like you have on flip phones so that you do not have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it especially if you have little kids around they are not pressing the buttons while you are trying to watch a TV show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off,"User Interface suggested adding a flip screen on the remote control in order to prevent users from accidentally pressing buttons and bring unwilling results, especially for families with children. Given that the products were to be made out of wood, Industrial Designer proposed to use a copper hinge. But User Interface disagreed by pointing out that this might increase the weight of the product." "PhD F: It is against my head Professor B: we actually talked about this in the front end meeting this morning too Much the same thing and and it was I mean there the point of interest to the group was primarily that the the system that we had that was based on H T K that s used by you know pause all the participants in Aurora was so much worse than the than the S R And the interesting thing is that even though yes it s a digits task and that s a relatively small number of words and there s a bunch of digits that you train on it s just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big HMM also you had the adaptation in the SRI system which we did not have in this So PhD F: And we know Di did I send you some results without adaptation ?","For comparing Meeting Recorder digits results, it was decided that the Aurora HTK-based system should be tested on data from the TI digits corpus" "PhD F: Right but I m not so much worried about the adaptation actually than than the the VTL estimation If you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping factor So Grad E: I strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do So PhD F: Right But it s not the amount of speakers it s the num it s the amount of data per speaker Grad E: Right So we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent So although I I sort of know how to run it there are a little a f few details here and there that I will have to pause dig out PhD F: OK The key So th the system actually extracts the speaker ID from the waveform names And there s a there s a script and that is actually all in one script So there s this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the speaker ID or something that can stand in as a speaker ID So we might have to modify that script to recognize the speakers in the in the TI digits pause database Or you can fake you can fake pause names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings",The script for extracting speaker ID information will require modifications to obtain a more accurate estimation of the amount of data recorded per speaker. "Professor B: adaptation non adaptation factor of two Oh I know what I was go w PhD F: What k you By the way wh what factor of two did you ? Professor B: It s tha that that we were saying you know well is how much worse is far than near you know And I mean it depends on which one you are looking at but for the everybody it s little under a factor or two I I know what I was thinking was that maybe i i we could actually t t try at least looking at some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone at least from the good one I mean before I thought we would get you know a hundred and fifty percent error or something but if if if we are getting thirty five forty percent or something you",Subsequent recognition experiments will look at large vocabulary speech from a far-field microphone (as performed in Switchboard evaluations). "PhD A: cuz there s no adaptation yet So there s I think there s some issues about you We probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker But I guess Andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker and that s actually a little bit of a f funky model Like it gives you some weird alignments just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker So there s some things there especially when you get lots of the same words occurring in the PhD F: Well the I I think you can do better by cloning so we have a reject phone And you and what we wanted to try with you know once we have this paper written and have a little more time t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground like fragments and stuff and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker PhD A: Right I mean in general we actually Right now the words like pause partial words are pause reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word But then the background speech was also a reject model and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know it needs to differentiate between the two So just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues And another one is turns like people starting with `` well I think `` and someone else is pause `` well how about `` So the word `` well `` is in this in this pause segment multiple times and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it But then that constraint of sort of proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general Grad E: Is the proximity constraint a hard constraint or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance or ? PhD A: Right now it s a kluge PhD F: No We w OK We it s straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does not completely disallows it but discourages it But we just did not have time to play with you know tuning yet another yet another parameter And really the reason we can not do it is just that we do not have a we do not have ground truth for these So we would need a hand marked word level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know between the speakers and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model to op to get the best pause performance Professor B: G given I I mean I wa I wa I was going to ask you anyway how you assessed that things were better PhD A: I looked at them I spent two days in Waves Oh it was painful because the thing is you know the alignments share a lot in common so And you are yo you are looking at these segments where there s a lot of speech I mean a lot of them have a lot of words Not by every speaker but by some speaker there s a lot of words No not","Current speech alignment techniques assume that foreground speech must be continuous and, barring some isolated words and backchannels, can not cope with overlapping background speech. Performing adaptations on both the foreground and background speaker produced a new variety of misalignments, a problem resulting, in part, from the fact that background speakers often match better to foreground conditions. " "Grad G: But you are actually saying that certain speakers were mis mis identified Postdoc C: So with under listening to the mixed channel there were times when as surprising as that is I got Adam s voice confused with Dan s and vice versa but jus just a couple of places and embedde embedded in overlaps The other thing that was w interesting to me was that I picked up a lot of backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal which you know I mean you c not not too surprising But the other thing that I I had not thought about this but I thou I wanted to raise this when you were with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially but that s When I was looking at these backchannels they were turning up usually very often in w well I will not say `` usually `` but anyway very often I picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question S so like someone says `` an and have you done the so and so ? `` And then there would be backchannels but it would be the person who asked the question Other people were not really doing much backchannelling And you know sometimes you have the huh",Transcribers occasionally misidentified speakers and omitted backchannels that were more hidden in the mixed signal. "Professor B: And tha And that s what we were getting those numbers from PhD A: Yes Though good the good numbers The bad numbers were from pause the segments where there was overlap Professor B: Well we could start with the good ones But anyway so I think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those and in those same segments just use one of the P Z PhD A: Right So we we can do that Professor B: And then you know I mean the thing is if we were getting what thirty five forty percent something like that on on that particular set does it go to seventy or eighty ?","The recognizer performed well on time-aligned segments labelled as 'non-overlap' (i.e. one person talking), while segments labelled as 'overlap' (i.e. multiple speakers talking at the same time) yielded poor results" "Industrial Designer: In fact I have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control The push button are usually extremely cheap but I just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor which seems to be quite expensive And I think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button Project Manager: But is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? Because we can afford up to twelve Euros for the price of the remote control So will will will this with including all possible things so buttons wheel and the chip be lower than twelve Euros to produce ? Industrial Designer: I I th But I do not think that we should We should talk about the design of the box also which needs some money User Interface: Did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? You we an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed Says It says that ri right now they just use it to to record answers to particular questions But I guess it could be Project Manager: And could it be adapted ? User Interface: I guess it is possible I mean instead of recording the answers you can just record something simpler like a command Project Manager: and there can recognize some commands and stuff ? User Interface: you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff so if they already have it as as a chip then we we could use it Project Manager: maybe we can just listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news Industrial Designer: but I think it is Sorry I have not written my personal references the I I just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button and if we could reduce that We we have already some good things with with the backlight of the push button User Interface: Mmhmm I have a question about that actually what is the purpose of the light ? Industrial Designer: Just to to make something which is slightly more design that a squarey box with a rubber Project Manager: You can easily find the button in the dark or so ? User Interface: But But in th in the dark but is going to be always turned on the light ? Project Manager: It will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control I think no ? User Interface: But if you move it then you have it you do not need to find it You can see the buttons better of course But if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement Industrial Designer: As soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light User Interface: but you need another sensor for that right ? no it is too expensive Industrial Designer: I do not think that this is really expensive but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but the bill starts to be User Interface: Mm Extra Mm but I expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so Industrial Designer: First of all I was thinking to have a a continuous light and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control when you want to turn off your device Project Manager: But it can be battery consuming no ? To have the light always on ? Industrial Designer: a little bit A little bit Project Manager: Well we will discuss that after maybe User Interface: So my one it should be in the shared folder So It was last time I saw it just move to the next slide So basically want very simple right ? That is the major idea as simple as possible So I just look at some current designs on the web of usually more complicated remote controls And let us look at two of them because th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple And in our case we just reject the buttons what we do not need and it become even simpler","Industrial Designer informed the team that the standard wheel is fifty times more expensive than a push button, so it might be hard to incorporate it into the design. Project Manager was insistent that the wheel is included, however. Then, the team discussed whether to include a motion activated light or continuous light." "Industrial Designer: In fact I have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control The push button are usually extremely cheap but I just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor which seems to be quite expensive And I think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button Project Manager: But is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? Because we can afford up to twelve Euros for the price of the remote control So will will will this with including all possible things so buttons wheel and the chip be lower than twelve Euros to produce ? Industrial Designer: I I th But I do not think that we should We should talk about the design of the box also which needs some money","Industrial Designer thought that the wheel would be too expensive, especially considering that the remote casing would be costly. In Industrial Designer's opinion, the backlight on the push buttons added enough novelty that the wheel would not be necessary. Industrial Design thought that having a motion activated backlight would be useful, as opposed to a continuous one. The motion sensor was not too expensive, so it wouldn't be a costly addition." "User Interface: Did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? You we an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed Says It says that ri right now they just use it to to record answers to particular questions But I guess it could be Project Manager: And could it be adapted ? User Interface: I guess it is possible I mean instead of recording the answers you can just record something simpler like a command Project Manager: and there can recognize some commands and stuff ? User Interface: you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff so if they already have it as as a chip",User Interface was concerned with voice activation and the light. The manufacturing division of the company already had a voice chip that they could adopt. User Interface thought that the light should be continuous since that would make the remote easier to find and that the cost of the motion sensor could be higher than expected. "Marketing: Can I ? So now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control So the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel And the second aspect is that the remote control should be technological innovative And the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use So are things we are we have speak about before And so you you can go after And there is a fashion watchers in Paris and Milan that have detected the following trends fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes shoes and furnitures So maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form And the mm the material is expected to be spongy I do not know which material can be spongy Project Manager: This is good also for User Interface: Well wou wou I think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing it it would work right ? Project Manager: I think it is good also f to have a spongy material User Interface: You can throw it to the television Hey that is a cool one We could say that if you throw it you have a sensor and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off When it d takes a shock Industrial Designer: Ah it is I know that they do that for alarm clock also Marketing: An and and this you can you can say that You ca you can go before before yes And you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel after is technological innovative and after the easy to use Project Manager: I think it is innovative to use the mm the wheel because I think no one else has Marketing: that is why I think we have to keep that if it is possible Project Manager: I think it is it makes it both easy and both innos innovative So I think it is a good aspect and it should be kept User Interface: How do we make it look cool is the question Project Manager: We have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable Maybe a colour that remember some fruit things like that User Interface: Well the obvious thing is a banana I guess Marketing: I thought about a a pear for example You know the pear is like that and it is it is easy to to have in in hand Project Manager: and it is ergonomic as well User Interface: The banana is also ergonomic Project Manager: Maybe pear or something like that Marketing: Or a fruit like that I do not know Project Manager: We can discuss that D D Is is there anything you want to add ? User Interface: Is there any fruit that is spongy ? Project Manager: I do not think so I think we we can have like a pear is good fit well or banana as you told Industrial Designer: And for maybe look and feel what about a a piece of ice with blue LED inside ? Project Manager: But that is not in the trend The trend is spongy and vegetable fruits User Interface: It is not hard the metal Project Manager: I think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well So I think we can keep the wheel because it is easy it is innovative even if the cost is a bit higher and we also have to find a so a fruit like pear or banana wit any others idea you have What kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your TV with ? Industrial Designer: Banana I think it is a nice idea Project Manager: Banana is also yellow so you you can not lost your remote control then Industrial Designer: You y you do not use the banana when the banana is curving like that but when the banana is curving like that with the wheel on the top and to control and here you have a a push button to Marketing: But you do not have Project Manager: I think it is a good idea User Interface: so you can just have just have this curve and you move your hand here to press the buttons and then you move on the other side So you can have it on on two sides and it will be cool Project Manager: I think it is a good design and it is innovative as well then Maybe we can keep the banana And it will be very easy to find Industrial Designer: And everybody knows what is a banana User Interface: You can put also vibrator inside Industrial Designer: If you if you start with fancy fruits and fra s and tha User Interface: Ahha You can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company Project Manager: it is really really a good point","Marketing introduced market research that suggested the best remote design would be spongy and take the form of a fruit or vegetable. The initial contenders for the remote shape were banana, apple, and pear. Banana won because of its colour and easily identifiable shape." Marketing: Can I ? So now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control So the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel And the second aspect is that the remote control should be technological innovative And the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use So are things we are we have speak about before And so you you can go after And there is a fashion watchers in Paris and Milan that have detected the following trends fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes shoes and furnitures So maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form And the mm the material is expected to be spongy,Marketing believed that the trend of fruits and vegetables that fashion watchers have detected in Milan and Paris is a good indication of what kind of style the remote should have. It could make for a fancy and technologically innovative device. Marketing thought that the pear would make a good shape because it's easy to hold and that the remote should be spongy. "Project Manager: I think it is good also f to have a spongy material User Interface: You can throw it to the television Hey that is a cool one We could say that if you throw it you have a sensor and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off",Project Manager supported spongy material because of its robust quality and wanted to prioritize the wheel since it differentiated their remote from competitors. Project Manager also thought that the banana would be a good choice since it will be easy to find. "Grad C: So and this actually turned out to be pretty key because having specified sort of these this this intermediate level and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let s go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node which contributes to the endpoint and so forth I can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here meaning it g of course goes where the sub S everything that comes from situation everything that comes from user goes with the sub YOU and whatever we specify for the so called `` Keith node `` or the discourse what comes from the parser construction parser will contribute to the D and the ontology to the sub O node And one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does not make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place But this makes the design thing fairly simple And now all w that s left to do then is the CPG s the conditional probabilities for the likelihood of a person having enough money actually wanting to go a place if it costs you know this or that And OK and once Bhaskara has finished his classwork that s where we are going to end up doing You get involved in that process too And And for now the the question is `` How much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` So one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` Visit the zoo tomorrow `` so we have an intention of seeing something but not now but later Professor D: Right so let s s s see I th I think that from one point of view all these places are the same so that d d That in terms of the linguistics and stuff there may be a few different kinds of places so I th i it seems to me that We ought to decide you know what things are k are actually going to matter to us And so the zoo and the university and the castle et cetera are all big ish things that you know have different parts to them and one of them might be fine Grad C: The the reason why we did it that way as a as a reminder is no person is going to do all of them They are just going to select you according to their preferences `` Ah I usually visit zoos or I usually visit castles or I usually `` And then you pick that one Professor D: Right no no but but s th point is to to y to build a system that s got everything in it that might happen you do one thing T to build a system that had the most data on a relatively confined set of things you do something else And the speech people for example are going to do better if they if things come up repeatedly Now of course if everybody says exactly the same thing then it s not interesting So all I m saying is i th there s there s a kind of question of what we are trying t to accomplish and I think my temptation for the data gathering would be to you know And each person is only going to do it once so you do not have to worry about them being bored so if if it s one service one luxury item you know one big ish place and so forth and so on then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle Now of course you have this I guess possible danger that somehow there are certain constructions that people use when talking about a museum that they would not talk about with a university and stuff but I guess I m I m my temptation is to go for simpler You know less variation But I do not know what other people think about this in terms of Grad B: So I do not exactly understand like I I I guess we are trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go right ? But who is it that has to care about this or what component of the system ? Professor D: Oh well th I think there are two places where it comes up One is in the th these people who are going to take this and and try to do speech with it Lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know a few pronunciations of lots more things Grad B: So we would rather just ask have a bunch of people talk about the zoo and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo castle whatever type things these bigger places Professor D: Bigger Y thi well this is a question for Grad B: And that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too Professor D: So this is a question for you and you know if we if we do and we probably will actually try to build a prototype probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway So Grad C: the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities But I think y I I got the point and I think I like it We can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion So `` Go to place `` and then give them a choice you know either they are the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` this is on that `` go to big ish place ``","The team discussed that the organisation of the intermediate nodes of the belief-net and their properties is almost complete, although no conditional probabilities have been inserted yet. These nodes represent decisions that will function as parameters to action calls in the system. Their values will either be inferred from the user-system interaction, or -as a last resort- requested directly from the user." "Professor D: I w we will we will not ask you more Grad C: I do not know What is the the the English co cognate if you want for `` Sankt Nimmerlandstag `` ? Sort of `` We will do it on when you say on that d day it means it will never happen Do you have an expression ? Probably you sh Grad B: Not that I know of actually Grad C: when hell Yep we will do it when hell freezes over So maybe that should be another property in there OK the reason why why do we go there in the first place IE it s either for sightseeing for meeting people for running errands or doing business Entertainment is a good one in there I think I agree Grad B: So business is supposed to be sort of it like professional type stuff right or something like that ? Grad C: I mean this w this is an old Johno thing He sort of had it in there `` Who is the the tour is the person ? `` So it might be a tourist it might be a business man who s using the system who wants to sort of go to some Grad B: I mean like for example my my father is about to travel to Prague He will be there for two weeks He is going to He s there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things PhD F: What ab What do you have in mind in terms of socializing ? What kind of activities ? Grad C: Eh just meeting people basically `` I want to meet someone somewhere `` which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` EVA `` you know because then if you are meeting somebody at the town hall you are not entering it usually you are just want to approach it Grad B: So I mean does this capture like where do you put `` Exchange money `` is an errand right ? But what about So like `` Go to a movie `` is now entertainment `` Dine out `` is Professor D: No I I well I do not know Let Let well we will put it somewhere but but I would say that if `` Dine out `` is a special c if you are doing it for that purpose then it s entertainment And we will also as y as you will s further along we will get into business about `` Well you are you know this is going over a meal time do you want to stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` And that s different That s that s sort of part of th that s not a destination reason that s sort of `` en passant `` right Grad C: That goes with the `` energy depletion `` function blech Grad B: `` Tourist needs food badly ``","A detailed diagram of the EVA belief-net was presented and some of the intermediate nodes and their properties were discussed in depth. Some of the key features and properties are: ""Go-there"", which is binary, and defined by the user, situation, ontology and discourse models; ""timing"" (current/next tour); ""reason"" (business, sight-seeing, socialising); ""transport""; ""length of tour""; ""costs""; ""entity"" (open, accessible) etc." "Grad C: w do we want to get going beyond more which is sort of the Professor D: Well OK so let s let s take let s I I think your suggestion is good which is we will do a b a batch OK And Fey How long is it going to be till you have ten subjects ? Couple days ? Or thr f a A week ? Or I do not I do not have a feel for th Undergrad E: I can I mean I s I think can probably schedule ten people whenever Professor D: Well it s it s up to you I mean I j I e We do not have any huge time pressure It s just when you have t Undergrad E: How long will it be ? I I would say maybe two weeks Professor D: Oh OK So let s do this Let s plan next Monday OK to have a review of what we have so far No we will not have the transcriptions but what we should be able to do and I do not know if Fey if you will have time to do this but it would be great if you could not transcribe it all but pick out some stuff I mean we could lis just sit here and listen to it all Are you going to have the audio on the web site ? OK Grad C: Until we reach the gigabyte thing and David Johnson s ki kills me And we are going to put it on the web site Professor D: Oh we could get I mean you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars right ? I mean it s it s not like OK So we will take care of David Johnson Grad C: No he he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful Professor D: Alright So we will buy a disk But anyway so If you if you can think of a way to point us to th to interesting things sort of as you are doing this or or something make your make notes or something that that this is you know something worth looking at And other than that I guess we will just have to listen although I guess it s only ten minutes each right ? Roughly Undergrad E: Well I guess I m not sure how long it s actually going to take Grad C: The reading task is a lot shorter That was cut by fifty percent And the reading nobody s interested in that except for the speech people Professor D: Right No we do not care about that at all Grad C: So It s actually like five minutes dialogue Professor D: I b My guess is it s going to be ten People I understand but people people you know Undergrad E: It feels like a long time Grad C: It feels like forever when you are doing it but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds Professor D: Could be OK I was thinking people would you know hesitate and Whatever Whatever it is we will we will deal with it Grad C: it s not And it s fun Professor D: OK so that will be that will be on on the web page That s great But anyway so I think it s a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system And then if we want to get them to start doing multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an tell them which things are near each other and you know any of that stuff You know `` Which things would you like to do Tuesday morning ? `` So I th that seems pretty straight forward Undergrad E: But were you saying that Grad C: I need those back by the way Professor D: I m sorry Fey what ? Undergrad E: That w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? Professor D: That s what I was suggesting for the first round Grad B: So rather than having zoo and castle Undergrad E: And then I mean they could be alternate versions of the same If you wanted data on different constructions Professor D: They could but i but i tha eh they c but but Undergrad E: Like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice and the other person gets the Professor D: You could but i but I I I think in the short run Grad C: And no th the per the person do not get it I mean this is why we did it because when we gave them just three tasks for w part A and three tasks for part B a Undergrad E: Well no they could still choose They just would not be able to choose both zoo and say touring the castle Grad C: Exactly This is limiting the choices but Right OK sorry But I I think this approach will very well work but the person was able to look at it and say `` OK This is what I would actually do `` OK we got to we got to disallow traveling to zoos and castles at the same time sort of Undergrad E: I mean there they are significantly different but Grad C: But no they are I mean they are sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different and these are just places where you you enter much like here Professor D: in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common like at you know `` attend a theater symphony or opera `` is is a group and `` tour the university castle or zoo `` all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` aspect about the way you would go to them And the movie theater is probably also e is a `` attend `` et cetera So it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things and then what one would expect is that that the sentence types would their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity you would expect PhD F: But I mean i it seem that there is a difference between going to see something and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` Grad C: this is where th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff OK But this is open So since people going to still pick something we we are not going to get any significant amount of redundancy And for reasons we do not want it really in that sense And we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking oh for different things with or with a computer And so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we will sneak them into the collection We are not going to do much statistical stuff with it Professor D: We do not have enough Grad C: No But it seems like since we since we are getting towards subject fifty subjects and if we can keep it up to a sort of five four ish per week rate we may even reach the one hundred before Fey t takes off to Chicago Undergrad E: That means that one hundred people have to be interested Professor D: Well these are all f people off campus s from campus so far So we we do not know how many we can get next door at the shelter for example for ten bucks probably quite a few So alright so let s go let s go back then to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff and see how we are doing Do do people think that you know this is is going to cover what we need or should we be thinking about more ? Grad C: in terms of decision nodes ? I mean Go there is is a yes or no I m also interested in th in this `` property `` line here so if you look at sorry look at that timing was I have these three Do we need a final differentiation there ? Now later on the same tour sometimes on the next tour Grad B: What s this idea of `` next tour `` ? I mean Grad C: It s sort of next day so you are doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things and you can do something immediately you could sort of tag it on to that tour or you can say this is something I would do s I want to do sometime l in my life basically Grad B: OK OK So so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever Professor D: probably between stops back at the hotel I mean if you if if you wanted precise about it you know","There are already 30 subjects lined up and more are expected to be recruited off campus. It was agreed that making subjects select from categories of tasks, such as ""big place"", ""service"", etc. could provide a better range of data. The duration of each dialogue will probably be no more than 10 minutes." "Grad C: Let me summarize in two sentences mainly for Eva s benefit who probably has not heard about the data collection at all Or have you heard about it ? Grad A: Not that much you did not Grad C: No OK We were going to put this in front of people They give us some information on themselves Then then they will read a task where lots of German words are sort of thrown in between And and they have to read isolated proper names And these change Professor D: S I do not see a release Grad C: No this is not the release form This is the speaker information form Professor D: Got it OK fine OK Grad C: The release form is over there in that box And And then they going to have to f choose from one of these tasks which are listed here They they pick a couple say three six as a matter of fact Six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in Heidelberg or traveling someplace and and they have a map Like this Very sketchy simplified map And they can take notes on that map And then they call this computer system that works perfectly and understands everything Grad B: This is a fictional system obviously Grad C: The comp the computer system sits right in front of you Undergrad E: I ve I understand everything Professor D: And she does know everything Grad C: And she has a way of making this machine talk So she can copy sentences into a window or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that So if you ask `` How do I get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it will come out of here `` In order to get to the castle you do ``","The data collection that will provide relevant dialogues is moving along, with thirty subjects already lined up. They will be given a reading task, which will include some german proper names, and a series of tasks from the tourist domain to choose from. In order to get directions, they will then communicate with a computer system and a human operator, using a sketchy map as an aid. A different set of data are already available from the SmartKom system and similar sources." "User Interface: Well I basically had a question Do Are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? Is it just the TV or do we want to in Project Manager: The project I got was just for a TV remote control User Interface: Just for TV remote control Well I was thinking about design remote control with our motto and all thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with No rational changes or whatever because it revolutionary changes Project Manager: so very intuitive design I guess User Interface: yes we might have to consider other design aspects of our product So that was something I wanted to add and perhaps some usability aspect TV is becoming central in most homes Do we want people who are disabled in any way to to be able to use it as well ? Project Manager: we want I suppose we want almost everyone to be using it So I think I mean really disabled people might be a problem but I think it is a little take it into consideration I think we really need to cut the meeting short You have anything you want to share quickly ? Industrial Designer: Only one thing that has to be added according to me is the the material it is made of it should be something light That is it speaks for itself Project Manager: where did I Let us skip that Oh this is it Sorry I skipped this sheet","The user interface asked what the project's target was. In response, the project manager emphasized that the target was a TV remote control. Then, the group members voiced out their envision of the product. The user interface suggested that the TV remote control should stick to what people are familiar with. At last, the user interface and industrial manager added usability and lightness as two other essential features of the product." "User Interface: Well I basically had a question Do Are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? Is it just the TV or do we want to in Project Manager: The project I got was just for a TV remote control User Interface: Just for TV remote control Well I was thinking about design remote control with our motto and all thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with No rational changes or whatever because it revolutionary changes Project Manager: so very intuitive design I guess","The user interface believed that changes, be them rational or revolutionary, once made, would be hindrances to customers' usage." "User Interface: yes we might have to consider other design aspects of our product So that was something I wanted to add and perhaps some usability aspect TV is becoming central in most homes Do we want people who are disabled in any way to to be able to use it as well ? Project Manager: we want I suppose we want almost everyone to be using it So I think I mean really disabled people might be a problem but I think it is a little take it into consideration I think we really need to cut the meeting short You have anything you want to share quickly ? Industrial Designer: Only one thing that has to be added according to me is the the material it is made of it should be something light That is it speaks for itself","As TV was becoming central in most homes, the user interface thought that the design of the remote control should cater to the needs of different kinds of customers, even including that of the disabled people. Besides, the industrial manager thought that lightness is another essential feature of the design." "Project Manager: And that is basically what we are going to do Everybody has a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards so we can share information about So I am going to keep this short since we had a technical problem So skip through this Every meeting we everybody can present their their views and everything so to help with these you have we have the SMARTboards here We can use a regular PowerPoint presentation I am supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board so it is actually it is very easy Like it says very simple you just take out the pen Like you see here I will just take the take here That is it you just put it on the board You see a pen here You go here just like using a pen You can just draw whatever you want It is like the eraser can erase whatever you want And so it will be easy just to illustrate your views if you want to change the format you just either take out jus just like the pen and whatever you want your current colour your line width just to make the line bigger So it should be really easy This is to take the just take a new slide and back again We are just going to keep using this board all the time so I think it will be it is very clear for everyone I suppose So I will take this out We will use that later Anyway just just just stuff that you want to share just put it in the in the project folder like I put my presentation now I will put the the minutes of every meeting I will put them there too so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever So next been here Well going to give the electronic whiteboard a shot So basic idea is we have a blank sheet Just try whatever you want and like it says draw your favourite animal I think the creative genius should go first So draw us your favourite animal User Interface: Well I am more into the technical aspects of drawing so I am not really good at drawing animals Project Manager: Draw us a technical animal User Interface: but the animal which I Oh format Else my animal will be like kingsize I pretty much like a dolphin because of its its freedom basically Let us see A head actually worked with this It is like it is a very hightech Project Manager: So that is what we do not want We want a highresponsive product So It looks more like nuclear bomb User Interface: It does not look like a nuclear bomb This thing is not doing what I am What I want Project Manager: Let us go easy on it User Interface: So well it does look like a nuclear bomb I will just finish up real soon because I am So it does not really look like a dolphin but then again this is all new for me Project Manager: it should It It is supposed to be a dolphin you like the freedom that it that it represents User Interface: Like the ocean like swimming Do that in my spare time so that is basically an Project Manager: What do you like ? Well User Interface: Now we can forget this ever happened Project Manager: our Marketing Expert Show us an animal pick a clean sheet Oh Take a clean sheet first Just press next That is it Marketing: Oh Oh a blank next Free I like the elephant It is big it is strong so Oh it is a little bit User Interface: It is not really that responsive no Marketing: You have to hold it right ? It is a beautiful animal Oh you have to p press it pretty hard With a smile on it Project Manager: It is a cute elephant Marketing: And not to forget its tail Oh Project Manager: It is a nice beard User Interface: And you was making comments on my dolphin Marketing: I will beat the dolphin No Project Manager: so it is just a bee So I suggest you make us the elephant in the market The big and strong player in the market This would be good excellent On to the next one Press next it is up there Industrial Designer: well the animal I would like to draw is a tiger User Interface: You picked a hard one did not you ? Industrial Designer: My drawing skills are really bad so They are really bad my drawing skills I am not sure how the legs should go but I have picked this animal because it is very fast It is it knows exactly what it wants it hardly ever wastes any resources Project Manager: What does it want ? Industrial Designer: well basically it hunts for prey but it does it always in a very wellthought way it knows exactly what it wants It never kills an animal just for the killing so it is very efficient And it tries to do everything as fast as possible And it always goes for security in seeking a hide spot and and doing everything security speed and efficiency is important And I think those things we can use Project Manager: I am supposed to draw the animal next Yay I introduce to the world the amazing ant Do everything to really small but together they are really strong So I am going to give it a smiley face Not sure where the p Just put them here Whatever Think it need shoes So I am just too lazy to draw it all black so That is the coolest ant ever User Interface: You have done this before have not you ? Project Manager: I love to draw ants It is my hobby Anyway Nah Just I think it is very representative what we drew I guess Like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us Just You are supposed to make i make it different from from what other people have and just make it a little distinct Anyway another beep to stop the meeting See Warning Finish meeting now put this down Examples Well I guess we have a little little time extra but Just a little quick discussion to to open open our work So what do you guys think about The first idea is just very short I will start with you What are y What are your first ideas for the new product ? What","The manager introduced a new technical device, the SMARTboards, to all the team members in order to facilitate their presentation and information sharing work. Then he asked the team to draw animals respectively to get acquainted with the device. Each member chooses a different animal, embodying their opinions upon the product." "Project Manager: This is to take the just take a new slide and back again We are just going to keep using this board all the time so I think it will be it is very clear for everyone I suppose So I will take this out We will use that later Anyway just just just stuff that you want to share just put it in the in the project folder like I put my presentation now I will put the the minutes of every meeting I will put them there too so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever So next been here Well going to give the electronic whiteboard a shot So basic idea is we have a blank sheet Just try whatever you want and like it says draw your favourite animal I think the creative genius should go first So draw us your favourite animal User Interface: Well I am more into the technical aspects of drawing so I am not really good at drawing animals Project Manager: Draw us a technical animal User Interface: but the animal which I Oh format Else my animal will be like kingsize I pretty much like a dolphin because of its its freedom basically Let us see A head actually worked with this It is like it is a very hightech Project Manager: So that is what we do not want We want a highresponsive product So It looks more like nuclear bomb User Interface: It does not look like a nuclear bomb This thing is not doing what I am What I want Project Manager: Let us go easy on it User Interface: So well it does look like a nuclear bomb I will just finish up real soon because I am So it does not really look like a dolphin but then again this is all new for me Project Manager: it should It It is supposed to be a dolphin you like the freedom that it that it represents User Interface: Like the ocean like swimming Do that in my spare time so that is basically an Project Manager: What do you like ? Well User Interface: Now we can forget this ever happened","Firstly, he thought that dolphin represents freedom. Besides, he loved the ocean a lot and swam a lot in his spare time." "Industrial Designer: well the animal I would like to draw is a tiger User Interface: You picked a hard one did not you ? Industrial Designer: My drawing skills are really bad so They are really bad my drawing skills I am not sure how the legs should go but I have picked this animal because it is very fast It is it knows exactly what it wants it hardly ever wastes any resources Project Manager: What does it want ? Industrial Designer: well basically it hunts for prey but it does it always in a very wellthought way it knows exactly what it wants It never kills an animal just for the killing so it is very efficient And it tries to do everything as fast as possible And it always goes for security in seeking a hide spot and and doing everything security speed and efficiency is important And I think those things we can use","The industrial manager thought that tigers always went for security, speed and efficiency. These features were also the guidelines in designing the products." "Project Manager: Right well this is the kickoff meeting for our our project and this is just what we are going to be doing over the next twenty five minutes so first of all just to kind of make sure that we all know each other I am Laura and I am the project manager Do you want to introduce yourself again ? Industrial Designer: Hi I am David and I am supposed to be an industrial designer Marketing: And I am Andrew and I am our marketing User Interface: I am Craig and I am User Interface Project Manager: Great so we are designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who is here actually So that is David Andrew and Craig is not it ? And you all arrived on time so des design a new remote control as you can see it is supposed to be original trendy and user friendly so that is kind of our our brief as it were and so there are three different stages to the design I am not really sure what what you guys have already received in your emails What did you get ? Industrial Designer: I just got the project announcement about what the project is That is about it did not get anything else Marketing: Mmhmm that is that is it Project Manager: Is that what everybody got ? Industrial Designer: Did you get the same thing ?","There were four people in the project team and each one introduced to each other on the team role. Project Manager introduced the project was about designing a remote control. After that, Project Manager explained the work division for each person and how they would present in the coming meetings." "Project Manager: Right well this is the kickoff meeting for our our project and this is just what we are going to be doing over the next twenty five minutes so first of all just to kind of make sure that we all know each other I am Laura and I am the project manager Do you want to introduce yourself again ? Industrial Designer: Hi I am David and I am supposed to be an industrial designer Marketing: And I am Andrew and I am our marketing User Interface: I am Craig and I am User Interface Project Manager: Great so we are designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who is here actually So that is David Andrew and Craig is not it ? And you all arrived on time so des design a new remote control as you can see it is supposed to be original trendy and user friendly so that is kind of our our brief as it were and so there are three different stages to the design I am not really sure what what you guys have already received in your emails What did you get ?",The group was greeting each other at the first meeting. Laura was the Project Manager. David was Industrial Designer and Andrew was Marketing expert. And User Interface was named Craig. "Project Manager: Great so we are designing a new remote control and Oh I have to record who is here actually So that is David Andrew and Craig is not it ? And you all arrived on time so des design a new remote control as you can see it is supposed to be original trendy and user friendly so that is kind of our our brief as it were and so there are three different stages to the design I am not really sure what what you guys have already received in your emails What did you get ? Industrial Designer: I just got the project announcement about what the project is That is about it did not get anything else Marketing: Mmhmm that is that is it Project Manager: Is that what everybody got ? Industrial Designer: Did you get the same thing ?","Group mates all should have received an email introducing what was this project about and there would be three different stages to the design. The project was about designing a new remote control, which was supposed to be original, trendy, and user friendly." "Project Manager: So we are going to have like individual work and then a meeting about it And repeat that process three times and at this point we get try out the whiteboard over there So you get to draw your favourite animal and sum up your favourite characteristics of it So who would like to go first ? Marketing: I will go That is fine Alright So This one here right ? Very nice Alright My favourite animal is like A beagle charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ? right well basically high priority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family And that they have lots of personality and be fit and in robust good health So this is blue Blue beagle My familys beagle User Interface: Well my favourite animal would be a monkey Then they are small cute and furry and when planet of the apes becomes real I am going to be up there with them Industrial Designer: There is too much gear Project Manager: You can take as long over this as you like because we have not got an awful lot to discuss Ok oh we do we do Do not feel like you are in a rush anyway Marketing: I coulda told you a whole lot more about beagles Boy let me tell you Project Manager: We might have to get you up again then I do not know what mine is I am going to have to think on the spot now Is that a whale ? Industrial Designer: well anyway I do not know it is just the first animal I can think off the top of my head Yes Big reason is because I am allergic to most animals Allergic to animal fur so fish was a natural choice and I kind of like whales They come in and go eat everything in sight And they are quite harmless and mild and interesting Project Manager: God I still do not know what I am going to write about Marketing: Superb sketch by the way Industrial Designer: Tails a bit big I think Project Manager: I was going to choose a dog as well But I will just draw a different kind of dog M my favourite animal is my own dog at home That does not really look like him actually He looks more like a pig actually Ah well Marketing: I see a dog in there Project Manager: Oh that is very good of you Marketing: Yep Now I see a rooster What kind is it ? Project Manager: he is a mixture of various things and what do I like about him That is just to suggest that his tail wags he is very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you and very kind of affectionate and and he is quite quite wee as well so you know he can does not take up too much space and And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well which is quite amusing so Marketing: Is he aware that th it is his own cha tail he is chasing ? Project Manager: It is I think it is He only does it after he is had his dinner and he will just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail round the living room Industrial Designer: It is an after dinner dog then Marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned Project Manager: maybe Maybe Right where did you find this ? what are we doing next ? we now need to discuss the project finance so according to the brief we are going to be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro and we are aiming to make fifty million Euro so we are going to be selling this on an international scale And we do not want it to cost any more than twelve fifty Euros so fifty percent of the selling price Marketing: Kay can we just go over that again ? so bas at twel Alright So cost like production cost is twelve fifty but selling price is is that wholesale or retail ? Like on the shelf Project Manager: I do not know I imagine That is a good question Marketing: Our sale our sale anyway Project Manager: I imagine it probably is our sale actually because it is probably up to the the the retailer to sell it for whatever price they want But I I do not know I mean do you think the fact that it is going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ? Marketing: Well right away I am wondering if there is th th like with DVD players if there are zones as well as characters different keypad styles and s symbols Project Manager: Well for a remote control do you think that will be I suppose it is depends on how complicated our remote control is Industrial Designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view because you have more complicated characters like European languages then you need more buttons Marketing: And then a and then al the other thing international is on top of the price I am thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region whereas in another it will be different so Project Manager: What just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ? Marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the Project Manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ? Marketing: Just Or just like basic product podi positioning the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London might not be such a big hit in Greece who knows Project Manager: Aye I see what you mean Oh gosh I should be writing all this down Marketing: Right away I am making some kind of assumptions about what what information we are given here thinking kay trendy probably means something other than just basic something other than just standard so I am wondering right away is selling twenty five Euros is that sort of the thi is this going to to be like the premium product kind of thing or Project Manager: Like how much does you know a remote control cost Well twenty five Euro I mean that is that is about like eighteen pounds or something is not it ? Or no is it as much as that ? Marketing: Yep I would say so Project Manager: I do not know I have never bought a remote control so I do not know how how good a remote control that would get you But I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky right Let me just scoot on ahead here well d Does anybody have anything to add to to the finance issue at all ? Thin Marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other Project Manager: No actually That would be useful though would not it if you knew like what your money would get you now Marketing: Mmhmm interesting thing about discussing production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out I just do not think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits It is just like getting shoelaces with shoes or something Project Manager: Oh Five minutes to end of meeting Oh We are a bit behind Marketing: Do you know what I mean ? Like so sort of like how do you I I mean one one way of looking at it would be well the people producing television sets maybe they have to buy remote controls Or another way is maybe people who have TV sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something User Interface: I know My parents went out and bought remote controls because they got fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house So for them it was just how many devices control Marketing: so Right so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses Project Manager: Right so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d you know do your your satellite and your regular telly and your VCR and everything ? Marketing: Well like maybe what we could use is a sort of like a example of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots They are gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras MP three players telephones everything agenda So like I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market such as the lighting in your house or Project Manager: Or even like you know notes about what you want to watch Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look a Oh that is a good idea So extra functionalities Marketing: An Like p personally for me at home I have I have combined the the audio video of my television set and my DVD player and my CD player So they w all work actually function together but I have different remote controls for each of them So it is sort of ironic that that then they are in there you know the sound and everything it is just one system But each ones got its own little part Project Manager: I would wel we are going to have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes I will just check we have nothing else so anything else anybody wants to add about what they do not like about remote controls they have used what they would really like to be part of this new one at all ? Industrial Designer: And you keep losing them Finding them is really a pain you know I mean it is usually quite small or when you want it right it slipped behind the couch or it is kicked under the table Project Manager: W You get those ones where you can if you like whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep Marketing: That is just really good id Yep Project Manager: There I mean is that something we would want to include do you think ? Marketing: I remember when the first remote control my my family had was on a cable Actually had a cable between it and the TV and big like buttons that sort of like like on a blender or something And you know when I think about what they are now it is better but actually it is still kind of I do not know like a massive junky thing on the table Maybe we could think about how could be more you know streamlined S Project Manager: Maybe like a touch screen or something ? Marketing: Or whatever would be technologically reasonable Project Manager: Uhhuh Well I guess that is up to our industrial designer Marketing: Because it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that does not make it any better but that just the appeal of of not having You know these days there is a r pe things in peoples homes are becoming more and more like chic you know Project Manager: Right well so just to wrap up the next meetings going to be in thirty minutes So that is about about ten to twelve by my watch so inbetween now and then as the industrial designer you are going to be working on you know the actual working design of it so y you know what you are doing there for user interface technical functions I guess that is you know like what we have been talking about what it will actually do and marketing executive you will be just thinking about what it actually what you know what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you will all get instructions emailed to you I guess so it is th the functional design stage is next I guess And and that is the end of the meeting So I got that little message a lot sooner than I thought I would so Marketing: Before we wrap up just to make sure we are all on the same page here do we We were given sort of an example of a coffee machine or something right ? Well are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have features which go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ? Project Manager: Th well just very quickly Marketing: I I do not know Project Manager: because this we are supposed to finish now I guess that is up to us I mean you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it so you know Industrial Designer: I think one factor would be production cost Because there is a cap there so depends on how much you can cram into that price I think that that is the main factor Project Manager: Right we will that is that is the end of the meeting then thank you all for coming","Industrial Designer drew a whale because whales came in and went to eat everything in sight, and they were harmless, interesting, and mild. Project Manager drew a dog because the dogs were friendly and cheery. Next, about the finance and the workflow. The target revenue was fifty million Euros and the target was on an international scale. The cost was 25 Euros. Group mates would receive requirement emails and work on them individually." "Project Manager: right Let me just scoot on ahead here well d Does anybody have anything to add to to the finance issue at all ? Thin Marketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares to other Project Manager: No actually That would be useful though would not it if you knew like what your money would get you now Marketing: Mmhmm interesting thing about discussing production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out I just do not think of remote controls as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits It is just like getting shoelaces with shoes or something","Project manager mentioned that they had no background information on the competitor, however, they could analyze based on the product price. And Marketing supplemented that the remote control was something that people would not consciously assess in their purchasing habits." "Project Manager: There I mean is that something we would want to include do you think ? Marketing: I remember when the first remote control my my family had was on a cable Actually had a cable between it and the TV and big like buttons that sort of like like on a blender or something And you know when I think about what they are now it is better but actually it is still kind of I do not know like a massive junky thing on the table Maybe we could think about how could be more you know streamlined S Project Manager: Maybe like a touch screen or something ? Marketing: Or whatever would be technologically reasonable Project Manager: Uhhuh Well I guess that is up to our industrial designer Marketing: Because it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that does not make it any better but that just the appeal of of not having You know these days there is a r pe things in peoples homes are becoming more and more like chic you know Project Manager: Right well so just to wrap up the next meetings going to be in thirty minutes So that is about about ten to twelve by my watch so inbetween now and then as the industrial designer you are going to be working on you know the actual working design of it","The group had a discussion about the first remote control with cable and huge buttons on it. So they would like to try new technology like a touch screen and nicer materials for the remote, which was important for technology improvement." Project Manager: d let us start with the cost aspect so so I look at the aspect discussed last time that is to say to have a standard battery to have a yellow banana shaped case with a rubber material around it to be to feel spongy and also at the different aspect like having a wheel etcetera And the cost ended to be ten point seven Euros So which is good because we had a price of twelve point five Euros,"This was a product shaped like a banana, with a standard battery and a wheel. The materials to manufacture this product included a yellow banana shaped case and a rubber. All of these summed up to cost 10.7 Euros, which was within their budget. And they had a price gap of 12.5 Euros, so they set the price at 25 Euros, which was very reasonable and attractive." "Marketing: We have a good price and Project Manager: So this prototype is quite nice User Interface: Because I saw some phones that were banana shaped wireless phones not mobile ones wireless for the house and they were selling something like a hundred Euros two hundred Euros Just a just a phone wireless Project Manager: So having this at twenty five Euros is quite attractive I think","User Interface mentioned the banana-shaped wireless phone that sold a hundred Euros and more, which was very high. Compared with this, the price of their product was very attractive for the customers which was just 25 Euros. Customers would be very willing to buy it." "User Interface: Because I saw some phones that were banana shaped wireless phones not mobile ones wireless for the house and they were selling something like a hundred Euros two hundred Euros Just a just a phone wireless Project Manager: So having this at twenty five Euros is quite attractive I think Industrial Designer: But almo also the complexity between a phone and a remote control is not can not compare User Interface: it is much more complex but","At the technological aspect, Industrial Designer thought the complexity of the phone was higher than the remote control, the price of these two cannot compare though they looked alike." "Project Manager: and we are now going to see the project evaluation with our marketing expert Marketing: So you can have my project in Project Manager: You have a presentation ? Marketing: So you can go We can go through So I made an evaluation and the the evaluation criteria is made according to the users requirements and the market trends we talked about during the previous meetings So you can go through and so we have six points We we talked about before So we we want to have a product fancy look and feel technologically innovative easy to use fashion easy to find in a room and robust and I have a scale of seven points So I go through all the all the points here and according to what you think about the this project you can mm make a one point two point or seven point ? And after we ha we have an an average and we see The ? so fancy look and feel what do you think ? F between o one and seven Project Manager: So I think it is very very nice What do you think ? User Interface: I give it a I give it a five Project Manager: So it is between one and seven ? Seven is the highest ? I will give a six Industrial Designer: I will give a a five User Interface: Do you vote Christine ? Do you also vote ? Marketing: No I just want to see something Project Manager: Maybe we all have to agree on a common User Interface: Well we can very easily Marketing: I think and need to as well I do not know if you we ha we have to put one f If it is better or Project Manager: Well we can choose what we want let us say that seven is the best Marketing: Or maybe we can say s seven is the best mm Project Manager: So so do note the grade we have five six for me five And what what is your choice ? How much would you give on the fancy aspect on the fashionable aspect ? Marketing: Six s you can how much what ? Project Manager: How much would you you do not answer to this questionnaire ? Marketing: Oh yes I mm I do not know mm I think six it is a good User Interface: So it will have five point five average Marketing: So after the technological aspect ? So we we said we have a new technological thing with a wheel Project Manager: we have the wheel We also have the rubber material which make it like new also I think I would give a five Industrial Designer: A four also because except for the wheel we do not have so much innovation User Interface: D are we including the voice are you glu are we including the voice in the end or not ? Huh ? Project Manager: what is your grade ? Four ? So we have four four f and five ? Marketing: We can put four ? Project Manager: four Four let us put four Marketing: Everyone is or four poin Four Very easy to use Do you think it is easy to use ? User Interface: I give a seven I think Project Manager: I would give a I would give a seven as well It is very easy to use Marketing: Mm six for me also Industrial Designer: Six six six point five Project Manager: its its f its fruit fruit shape I would say seven And is very very nice design Marketing: it is fashion because it is a fruit User Interface: we can we can put a seven here Marketing: and we say that the easy to find in a room ? Project Manager: I think you can not miss it User Interface: I think it is cool I think we can put a six here Marketing: We have the lightning or Project Manager: we do not sesh especially have the lightning User Interface: So you will make the material transparent so that it lights up completely or Project Manager: So it is yellow It is I think it is very easy to I would say seven It is hard to miss it Marketing: Is it is it robust ? Project Manager: it is rubber made of rubber Industrial Designer: f it is ru it is rubber Project Manager: I think it is m it is more rubber than other remote control User Interface: the only problem there might be which know i if it is very sensitive Project Manager: But it is it is surrounded by rubber material So maybe we can put a six Tadada We have to sum up everything Marketing: Thirteen twenty twenty six point five seven thirty two thirty six That is that is ? Six Good if we say that seven it is it is the better and when s six sit six are good it is a good p product I think User Interface: Mm So will become eight soon ? Project Manager: So it is a good evaluation I think It is very promising User Interface: well it is a bit biased","Every team member evaluated the prototype, and the evaluation criteria were user-oriented and market-indicated, which meant the product needed to meet the following standard such as fancy appearance, innovative technology, easy using, fashion in trend, being highly visible in a room, and robust quality. The marketing set up seven points in each criterion and let the team members to score the product from one to seven. It turned out every criterion of this prototype scored high, the evaluation results were quite satisfying." "Marketing: So after the technological aspect ? So we we said we have a new technological thing with a wheel Project Manager: we have the wheel We also have the rubber material which make it like new also I think I would give a five Industrial Designer: A four also because except for the wheel we do not have so much innovation User Interface: D are we including the voice are you glu are we including the voice in the end or not ? Huh ? Project Manager: what is your grade ? Four ? So we have four four f and five ? Marketing: We can put four ? Project Manager: four Four let us put four Marketing: Everyone is or four poin Four","For the technologically innovative part, the product was only added with a wheel and the rubber material. In terms of innovation, there still lacked some shining points. Therefore, everyone gave a lower grade compared to other aspects." "Marketing: Very easy to use Do you think it is easy to use ? User Interface: I give a seven I think Project Manager: I would give a I would give a seven as well It is very easy to use Marketing: Mm six for me also Industrial Designer: Six six six point five Project Manager: its its f its fruit fruit shape I would say seven And is very very nice design Marketing: it is fashion because it is a fruit User Interface: we can we can put a seven here Marketing: and we say that the easy to find in a room ? Project Manager: I think you can not miss it User Interface: I think it is cool I think we can put a six here Marketing: We have the lightning or Project Manager: we do not sesh especially have the lightning User Interface: So you will make the material transparent so that it lights up completely or Project Manager: So it is yellow It is I think it is very easy to I would say seven It is hard to miss it Marketing: Is it is it robust ? Project Manager: it is rubber made of rubber Industrial Designer: f it is ru it is rubber Project Manager: I think it is m it is more rubber than other remote control User Interface: the only problem there might be which know i if it is very sensitive Project Manager: But it is it is surrounded by rubber material So maybe we can put a six","Since this product didn't have much complex design, it was designed to be easy to use with a very simple structure. Hence, they all agreed that it was easy to use. As for the fancy part, the product was a banana shape, the fruit design was very up to date and fashionable. For the same reason that it resembled a banana, users would find it easily when they needed to use the remote control. What's more, it had lightning, making it more visible in daily life. The product was surrounded by rubber, enabling it under protection, so the robust feature can be ensured." "Marketing: so we did some research we asked one hundred people their opinions on remote controls We asked some open ended questions just what are your opinions on the remote control got a lot of re responses and we asked some very specific questions and we got a lot of good feedback Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people so even when the groups are divided into fifteen to twenty five twenty five to thirty five there is only maybe ten people fifteen people in each group So we got some the bad stuff we got remotes are often lost I often lose my remote control the back of the couch some place and even if it is not lost permanently it takes me a few minutes to find it Most buttons are not used any more like you said teletext is outdated now I remember trying to load a DVD player recently and there were so many buttons it took me I do not know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button because you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons you know there is just a lot of stuff that no one really uses And if they do not very often Takes too long to master the remote control I have seen some remote controls that are big they have a lot of buttons you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something they are just not great to use We just got a lot of bad complaints about remote controls people do not like remote controls Some of the good stuff we got Between the age of fifteen and twenty five most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software Now do not get excited yet I have got more to say on that Most peopled be willing to pay for that most people want remote controls to be pretty they want it to be fancy th they they want it to be different everybody has a white remote control with black buttons and a red button and a green button not everybody wants that Finally my opinion The voice recognition thing is cool And voice recognition the software open source software exist already It is a bit sketchy at some times you are not going to get good always accurate results but for a very fixed number of words you know you have how many different words can you have for a remote control up down left right channel five channel seven you know how many you can not have that many words For a fixed vocabulary it works quite well I am pretty sure people would buy it But after a while people may want to return it because if you have to to say som I mean most people use a remote control for switching to channels and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time Using the remote control ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels and that is for flickering through channels So if you have to say up up up up if you have to do that all the time then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it However oh because the voice recognition software exists already there is no need to spend money on research and development but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control which is an unusual feature in my opinion But if we do have the voice recognition thing there is a lot of stuff that you can get rid of See you could there are two options Either you have voice recognition by itself which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you want to be watching television and you want to be quiet or I do not know you have a visitor coming round and the remotes only trained for you it is a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself So you can have voice recognition and a regular remote But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look because there are no restrictions on physical size or shape it it could be as fancy as you want it to be you know it could be like a lollipop or something like that something weird like that As long as the voice recognition stuff works that is that is fine So we have the three birds we have the design that we have the the fancy bit right the voice recognitions fancy it is cool it is different it is radical so and then we have an extra bit I do not remember so I am pretty sure people will buy the remote but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control I think is a big question will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it will take to train the remote because I think it will the remote will get better over time with the same user user but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait are you willing to have a bad remote control And what if you have visitors come round they stay the night they want to use the TV they can not use the remote because they speak differently to you how do you account for regional accents and stuff like that will people return the remote control I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control if they have the money you know so do our audience have the money but would they return it after a while because it is not as fast as pressing a button it is not a practical So These are things I think we should consider I think it is cool Project Manager: if you could speed it up a bit If you could speed it up a bit please Marketing: I am sorry ? Sure I am about to end I think it is cool but there are definitely some considerations","Marketing presented the user requirements. The market research results were from 100 people. It frustrated users most when they failed to find the lost remote control. The market research also revealed a necessity to simplify the remote control interface, for users would not take time mastering the remote control. Most buttons were thus unused, and teletext was outdated now. Besides, Marketing expressed a negative view on the incorporation of voice recognition." "Marketing: So we got some the bad stuff we got remotes are often lost I often lose my remote control the back of the couch some place and even if it is not lost permanently it takes me a few minutes to find it Most buttons are not used any more like you said teletext is outdated now I remember trying to load a DVD player recently and there were so many buttons it took me I do not know maybe ten minutes to to go through each button because you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons you know there is just a lot of stuff that no one really uses And if they do not very often Takes too long to master the remote control I have seen some remote controls that are big they have a lot of buttons you have to hold down more than one key at one time to do something they are just not great to use We just got a lot of bad complaints about remote controls people do not like remote controls Some of the good stuff we got Between the age of fifteen and twenty five most people would be willing to pay extra for voice recognition software Now do not get excited yet I have got more to say on that Most peopled be willing to pay for that most people want remote controls to be pretty they want it to be fancy th they they want it to be different everybody has a white remote control with black buttons and a red button and a green button not everybody wants that Finally my opinion The voice recognition thing is cool And voice recognition the software open source software exist already It is a bit sketchy at some times you are not going to get good always accurate results but for a very fixed number of words you know you have how many different words can you have for a remote control up down left right channel five channel seven you know how many you can not have that many words For a fixed vocabulary it works quite well I am pretty sure people would buy it But after a while people may want to return it because if you have to to say som I mean most people use a remote control for switching to channels and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time Using the remote control ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels and that is for flickering through channels So if you have to say up up up up if you have to do that all the time then people might get a bit fed up with that and they may return it However oh because the voice recognition software exists already there is no need to spend money on research and development but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control which is an unusual feature in my opinion But if we do have the voice recognition thing there is a lot of stuff that you can get rid of See you could there are two options Either you have voice recognition by itself which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you want to be watching television and you want to be quiet or I do not know you have a visitor coming round and the remotes only trained for you it is a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself So you can have voice recognition and a regular remote But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look because there are no restrictions on physical size or shape it it could be as fancy as you want it to be you know it could be like a lollipop or something like that something weird like that As long as the voice recognition stuff works that is that is fine So we have the three birds we have the design that we have the the fancy bit right the voice recognitions fancy it is cool it is different it is radical so and then we have an extra bit I do not remember so I am pretty sure people will buy the remote but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control I think is a big question will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it will take to train the remote because I think it will the remote will get better over time with the same user user but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait are you willing to have a bad remote control And what if you have visitors come round they stay the night they want to use the TV they can not use the remote because they speak differently to you how do you account for regional accents and stuff like that will people return the remote control I think a lot of young people will buy the remote control if they have the money you know so do our audience have the money but would they return it after a while because it is not as fast as pressing a button it is not a practical So These are things I think we should consider I think it is cool Project Manager: if you could speed it up a bit If you could speed it up a bit please Marketing: I am sorry ? Sure I am about to end I think it is cool but there are definitely some considerations","The market research indicated that between the age of 15 and 25, most people would be willing to pay extra fees for voice recognition. However, Marketing pointed out that such a result barely implied users' expectation for a fancy and unique remote control. There were several problems with the existing voice recognition software, such as the limitation on word number and inaccurate recognition results due to regional accents. In conclusion, Marketing considered the incorporation of voice recognition to be unfeasible." "Project Manager: So To go on from here we have to decide exactly what we are going to do with the remote Before we leave this meeting it would be best to say this is what we are going this is the design we are going to try and get this is how we are going to make ourselves look unique Do we go for maybe a remote contro sorry we are going to go for a remote control obviously do we go for a small joystick that would operate say changing channels up and down and then what another button that would say that it is now being used to manoeuvre round the LCD User Interface: Mm I think that is Industrial Designer: We are just saying volume Should volume be important in the joystick do you think ? Project Manager: We could use say the left and right for changing channels and the up and down for volume Marketing: But we have a frequency of how what people use a remote control for most power is used like once per hour channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight per hour that is by far the biggest one and then teletext is still here that is like fourteen Project Manager: the teletext we are gambling with and we are going to say it is dead the way of the dodo So we well sorry we could maybe even go as far as saying power button small joystick LCD and then what maybe is it one more button to say that you are using the menu system and with the possibility of pushing down on the joystick to say ? So we are having very very few buttons involved but navigation around a menu for most things User Interface: Actually I would say maybe two two function buttons the y we are now using the menus button and and an og and an button I mean certainly something I have found with the joystick on mo the joysticks on mobile phones is that a lot of the time th the device mistakes you trying to move it in one direction or the other for pushing down for And that is really irritating The o the o the other dis design constraint I think we should bear in mind is that people are you know very much used to using a remote control one handedly so we need to make sure that e even with the joystick you know something that can just sit comfortably in the palm of the hand and have the joystick just controlled by the thumb Project Manager: So we are actually that sounds like a rough idea Do we incorporate the idea of trying to f locate the remote control again via a beeping noise ? Do you mind looking ? Marketing: I think because it is so small it might be an I mean if we only have like two three buttons it might be essential to have to have that Project Manager: The ability to locate it again So that would require a transmitter maybe attached to the TV just so that it says find me and what a basically a small microphone on the actual unit can maybe hide it in the base User Interface: a small speaker you mean Industrial Designer: And a light bulb ? No To flash No Nah you would see it anyway if you hear it Project Manager: E us we might be better with the sound possibly we could maybe incorporate Marketing: W those little keyrings have both Project Manager: th e the true fact considering the cost of an LED we could just incorporate it anyway The LEDs can be surprisingly bright now User Interface: Plus that is a nice wee design touch Project Manager: by the sounds of it with what we are suggesting so far your design the user interface is still quite open you could go for quite an interesting design Because we are only going to have a very few key and you have got you know a small LCD joystick e I think it leaves you open to a a potential wide range of shapes something that can make it stand out slightly if you could look into what we have suggested so far the feasibility of small transmitter and such maybe if an LCD screen requires too much power or such Ebenezer Marketing Expert Marketing: Well I can give you the frequency what people what options people use most often I guess that is going to be important in the ts defining the the software side of the interface right Project Manager: if you could maybe as well see what people think about the idea of this minimalist approach that we have taken where of a joystick to control the very basic functions and then the idea of manipulating it like you would a mobile I do not know how easy that will be within the time frame but could be something we could maybe look into any last comments that anybody would like to put forward ? Anything that they think has been missed out Bit of a wide open question there of course Feel free to email me if you think that we have screwed something up and want to get it rectified as soon as possible Industrial Designer: So I should just look at the speaker the speaker and an LED Project Manager: Speaker and LED for locating User Interface: Actually one one wee thought about that if we do end up trying to market this to television manufacturers then the then the transmitter could actually be built into the television Project Manager: getting the external power source yep that is quite true and something that we can can easily be adopted at the last minute as well I would say The electronics could be s either placed externally or internally makes no difference to the final product of the actual remote control User Interface: Mmhmm You know I think I mean if it w if we get a major television manufacturer to say y oh we will have that save us the bother then that is you know vast amounts of sales Quite quickly Project Manager: Oh one thing that we have almost not talked about at all my apologies for that user interface we also need to maybe get the slogan in here it is I am pointing at my laptop what in God Real reaction and such So Industrial Designer: the slogans we put the fashion in electronics is not it ? Project Manager: My apologies No it could well be I have probably missed that I think that is l almost the last minute thing we can just incorporate into the actual plastic on top So I am not too concerned a that we have not gone into depth about that But it might be something you could consider when you are thinking about shapes ? In fact we might like to put a slogan on and possibly the two Rs to signify the company Rather than real reaction User Interface: Mmhmm Mm I thought the the d the double arc could perhaps be the the enter button Project Manager: And I would say that that is us for now","User Interface and Industrial Designer agreed on the intuitive interface design with menu navigation on an LCD screen. Meanwhile, the team would involve as few buttons in the remote control interface as possible. The new remote control would only be for basic functions such as volume adjusting and channel flipping. A separate joystick would be for additional functionality. The new remote control would be the integration of original remote controls for different devices. Voice recognition was unfeasible due to the budget limit. A speaker and a transmitter were desirable, however, for the location function." Project Manager: Well Oh sorry I am I am interrupting you Are you is it ? Right right we can probably skip that for now So we have had some stuff put forward along with the new user requirements we have had a lot of kind of input I would say so far I hear what the Marketing Experts saying about voice activated control However I have got a couple of worries about that The power required and the ability to the cost it seems like for an embedded system this could cause us issues for example you see that there is fairly robust services on computers via via voice IBM do drag and dictate but these require a lot of memory and usually state quite advanced processor requirements voice activation could be an interesting idea but I think that our Ind Industrial Designer would probably upon some research say that it is maybe not feasible that is just my view right now,"Project Manager was concerned about the power required and the cost. The robust voice recognition service embedded on the computer was exemplified by Project Manager to indicate that such software would drag and dictate, but would also require a lot of memory. Moreover, Project Manager admitted that voice recognition was fancy yet unfeasible within the budget." "Project Manager: however the idea of a joystick and then maybe an LCD which has been kind of put forward so far it is almost like having a small T not TV to say but if you can control almost all of the functionality from the display I do not know how much power an LCD would take but it might be quite low ? Industrial Designer: LCD on the remote just telling you what is on or interactive LCD or Project Manager: Well literally if you can imagine the display maybe slightly larger than those on a a mobile phone something where you can read an an fair amount of information traverse maybe quite a few menus if we maybe used mobile phones as a good example they usually incorporate they have the keypad and then evr all the other functionality is usually associated inside by traversing around That could be one possibility and then we could have like say the common buttons as you say volume control changing channels User Interface: Mm I I was thinking that the remote the sort of default functions for the joystick would be up and down for volume left and right for channels Industrial Designer: Do you think that people will get mixed up like they will be looking at this screen and that screen and then you know trying to get everything working would it be a bit confusing ? User Interface: I think probably for the first couple of hours of using it but you know muscle memorys a wonderful thing And I think and I think that size of display was about what I had in mind",Project Manager appreciated the idea of a joystick. An LCD menu screen on the joystick would consume quite low power. A fair amount of information could be read on the screen display. Other functionality would be associated inside the menu by traversing around. Project Manager agreed with User Interface that buttons could only be used for default functions such as volume adjusting and channel flipping once there was a functional joystick. "Marketing: but I think we do not have a specific audience you know like what is our target audience what niche are niche are we trying to market and corner You know you know what I am saying like for whom is this intended ? Everybody ? Project Manager: I think it could probably be aimed at most people who have used a mobile And that might be just another way of saying try to target most people if we are if we were to follow that avenue we might be s you know we are kind of almost relying on their experience with a mobile phone I suppose But that does cover a very large section of the people out there Marketing: Mmhmm Sure I think that is fair Project Manager: I mean I imagine as well that the actual LCD and maybe to a certain extent the joystick as well would be for the additional functionality Which maybe does not get used as often maybe it makes it easy for them to figure out how to change the channels as in the frequencies and such for reprogramming it",Project Manager thought that the interface design was still not intuitive and useful enough for now. Marketing agreed and pointed out that the present target group might be too large. Marketing suggested that the team should figure out specifically for whom they intended to design the interface in case the customers were confused about the remote control and got dissatisfied. "Marketing: And how exactly does the kinetic energy work ? Industrial Designer: Well y you basically shake your remote and then it powers up Marketing: You just You use it and it works Well personally I do not think that older people like to shake their remote control before they use it And besides that you mentioned it would make the docking station obsolete And I think our docking station could be one of the marketing issues with which we can get great popularity for our product User Interface: what is the function ? f for loading up the batteries Marketing: you could load up the batteries you could insert the find the lost remote control function in there User Interface: but it will not use much e energy I I believe it is just a small display so I believe it will run on one battery for six months or f or or more So I believe one battery is just enough","For one thing, Marketing argued that target customers as the elder generation tended not to shake their remote controls before using. For another, he believed that the docking station was in a position to load up the batteries, therefore, the basic normal battery would be sufficient for the charging need, which was confirmed by User Interface who pointed out that remote control with a minor display would in no way be power-consuming." "Project Manager: And also what you said you can introduce voice recognition by finding back your remote But I think it is more efficient and cheaper to put it in the docking station So you have a but button on your docking station which you can push and then it starts beeping And then we can we can still use the voice recognition but maybe then for only the the channels Marketing: I am wondering what will the voice recognition mean for the production price ? Project Manager: That is a good point Industrial Designer: Mm I do not have any information on pricing So I will have to ask the manufacturing department Marketing: Because in our earlier market research if you would allow me to go to the flat board SMARTboard so it was open here we also asked if w they would if people would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control Well you can see here our target group would not do that So if that would increase the price for which we are selling our remote control I would greatly advise not to do it I think that would be better to insert in our other product that is meant for the Industrial Designer: But that would also go for the LCD screen then I guess It is a bit higher percentage but Marketing: well this is but this is here the question was would you prefer it So that does not really mean they would not pay extra for it And on top of that the LCD screen would help in making the remote control easier to use And I think a voice recognition function would not make the remote control much easier to use Project Manager: Easier to use ? No I think that is a good point User Interface: But is our research about bi large LCD sh display or just a small one we want to use ? Marketing: well this was for like an LCD screen like you would have on a on the the most advanced mobile phones Project Manager: I personally think the LCD screen we want to use with the extra information I think nobody has anything against it Because it is just some extra information and it is easy to ignore as well So if you do not want to use it you just do not use it And I think the Maybe we have to discard the voice recognition Because it will increase cost signifi significantly And I do not think the I do not think it will be a lot easier to use as well So that brings us back to the energy If we do not have the voice recognition it will it will not use a lot of energy to use So in that case we could use kinetic energy but I think just a simple battery which you can reload on a docking station is just as good And much cheaper as well Industrial Designer: And that is the best choice","Marketing first brought up price concern, implying that voice recognition could significantly drive up cost and price. Also, Marketing argued that unlike the LCD screen, the elderly would not fancy speech recognition because it would not make the remote control more user-friendly. Project Manager applauded Marketing's opinion and agreed that the LCD screen should be given priority over voice recognition." "Project Manager: advanced chip And then we get to the point of the case which brings us a little bit back to marketing as well if we want to choose for wood or the black and grey Or both ? as we saw there is not wood is a lot more expensive to produce but I think it will attract elderly people who want to have something exclusive which they can show off to their grandkids Look I have got a new remote control and Marketing: Well And I think most important factor there is the wooden colour So it would not actually have to be wood Project Manager: But with colour was a lot more expensive ? Or ? Industrial Designer: Mm I do not know Project Manager: You do not know ? Industrial Designer: I will have to research Project Manager: It is a lot more difficult to to handle and to to get in the right shape User Interface: Mm is it possible to make changeable case So you because with mobile phones so like the Nokia mobile phones when you can change the case of it maybe it is possible possibility So you have just to make one standard remote control and you can sell few Project Manager: You can sell the cases I think that is a very good option Because then you can advertise as well with the Give your grandfather a new case for his remote control or whatever Because that is a it is something extra it is something other remotes do not have which we can get a great advantage point So and then you can make them with colour Black and grey other colours as well Marketing: We would have to look carefully into the design though Because we would have to make one w control which would fit in with a wooden cover and a plastic cover The more original one or the more standard one Project Manager: you suggest we should design two different telephones on which you can apply remote controls on which you can apply different case covers for example Marketing: Well I would not design a telephone Well no I think w we should just we should then just design one one remote but it would have to be fancy with either the wood cover or the plastic one So but that should not be too much of a problem Project Manager: So everybodys with the changing covers ? I think that is a good good option Marketing: I heard our Industrial Designer talk about flat single and double curved Could you explain that a little more ? Industrial Designer: Well the the general like most older remotes are flat just straight And our d manufacturing department can also deliver single curved or double curved ca curved cases Marketing: And what would single curved and double curved mean ? Industrial Designer: it would just only affect the form for as far as I know So it is j really just up to the design department what we are going to use It does not really matter for the price or the functionality Marketing: So we can pretty much just do whatever we want Industrial Designer: Pick one you like yes Project Manager: but the form has to be It has to It is has to be possible to stand up ? Or just only to lie down ? Marketing: No just to lie down Project Manager: And the the cover of the the docking station is also Marketing: We will go for that Project Manager: on top of the television then ? Or not ? And you can just then click it in That is so the interface What type of interface do we want to use ? maybe you can make a little drawing of it on the Does somebody have ideas for a form or User Interface: we can just use the regular form of it but it is not quite fancy So Marketing: you said you wanted to put the changing channels button on the right side so you could so your thumb would be easily Well I think that was a very good point because I pointed out earlier that a lot of remotes because RSI So that would be great for that I thought maybe we could just make one of those buttons on both the left and the right side User Interface: Mm we Is it possible to program it s so you got on the left side or on the right side buttons for for shifting you up and shifting up ? And on the other o other side buttons for shifting for for the sound ? Or Or is not it ? Marketing: that could we could do that but I am not sure if that would be very good for the easy ease of use Project Manager: Usabili ease of use will be a lot more difficult Marketing: But if we would make a changing channels and changing volume button on both sides that would certainly yield great options for the design of the remote Because it could be made all symmetrical and stuff Project Manager: But you have extra buttons So people can get confused Especially if they have the same writings on it User Interface: See Or we have to make a left For lefties Project Manager: Can not we make Can not we make a remote which you can flip over and use on the same functions as the normal one ? Let us see if I ca A blank one And then you get Here is a little LCD screen now I have to think It is a plus and a min No it is not very handy I think Because the plus and the min will be opposite No that is not going to work I guess Maybe we should But is it a problem that lefthanded persons use a different hand ? I think the functions are that basic that nobody should have any problems with choosing a channel User Interface: It is just you using your thumb Project Manager: I think we could just leave it a normal shape but maybe we have to make it a l a bit more fancy In one or ano another way Industrial Designer: I think we should start by by choosing a case Because that is the basis you are building on So I could draw them out Let us look at the flat case Oh It is from the side so it is rather normal The the single curved so I am not really sure what they are going to look like but I think it is something like this So this type should be better for you or better Should prevent repetitive strain injury a bit And the double curved s looks something like this I guess So th those are the three options we have Project Manager: I suggest the single curved because maybe the curve is pretty good to put the the screen in so that elderly people can use the remote control and at the same time look easily at the screen because it is a bit it has a bit of a angle User Interface: So Do you say this S you got like sort of a I believe There ? So you want to put a display over here ? Or not ? Project Manager: Do you have it upside down or this that is top ? User Interface: So this top This down maybe it is possible to make this side like Let us see Colour to make this side like mm the right colour bit like so in the form of your hand So it is an So so the remote control have to lay in your hand So it is possib for s so and And to put the the buttons for changing the channel over here Project Manager: That is a good one But I think it is better to put the screen on top So just flip it a hundred and eighty degrees around then you get here If you can have this one you turn it like this And then flip it upside down User Interface: it is I do not know Project Manager: Because maybe your hand is in the way if you have the display here Industrial Designer: It is more logical to have it on top as well because like on your mobile phone it is always above Oh maybe you should just s start on a blank page Project Manager: then we get Here is That is the curve Here the display and then buttons and then we can have a little bit off here and here maybe Just that is for left hand and right hand users And then h the rest of the buttons over here User Interface: But the onoff button still on the top Marketing: And I would prefer the corners to be round Project Manager: Should be more bit more friendly Marketing: Think that would be better","Firstly, the group reached a consensus that material should be plastic with wooden colour as opposed to wood. Then, User Interface brought forward a changeable case as a solution and was unanimously accepted. After that, the group discussed the shape of the control and chose single-curved for the time being. Finally, they drew out a specific case design and roughly determined the position of each button while taking the convenience of left-handed users into account." "User Interface: Mm is it possible to make changeable case So you because with mobile phones so like the Nokia mobile phones when you can change the case of it maybe it is possible possibility So you have just to make one standard remote control and you can sell few Project Manager: You can sell the cases I think that is a very good option Because then you can advertise as well with the Give your grandfather a new case for his remote control or whatever Because that is a it is something extra it is something other remotes do not have which we can get a great advantage point So and then you can make them with colour Black and grey other colours as well Marketing: We would have to look carefully into the design though Because we would have to make one w control which would fit in with a wooden cover and a plastic cover The more original one or the more standard one Project Manager: you suggest we should design two different telephones on which you can apply remote controls on which you can apply different case covers for example Marketing: Well I would not design a telephone Well no I think w we should just we should then just design one one remote but it would have to be fancy with either the wood cover or the plastic one So but that should not be too much of a problem Project Manager: So everybodys with the changing covers ? I think that is a good good option Marketing: I heard our Industrial Designer talk about flat single and double curved Could you explain that a little more ? Industrial Designer: Well the the general like most older remotes are flat just straight And our d manufacturing department can also deliver single curved or double curved ca curved cases Marketing: And what would single curved and double curved mean ? Industrial Designer: it would just only affect the form for as far as I know So it is j really just up to the design department what we are going to use It does not really matter for the price or the functionality Marketing: So we can pretty much just do whatever we want Industrial Designer: Pick one you like yes Project Manager: but the form has to be It has to It is has to be possible to stand up ? Or just only to lie down ? Marketing: No just to lie down Project Manager: And the the cover of the the docking station is also Marketing: We will go for that Project Manager: on top of the television then ? Or not ? And you can just then click it in That is so the interface What type of interface do we want to use ? maybe you can make a little drawing of it on the Does somebody have ideas for a form or User Interface: we can just use the regular form of it but it is not quite fancy So Marketing: you said you wanted to put the changing channels button on the right side so you could so your thumb would be easily Well I think that was a very good point because I pointed out earlier that a lot of remotes because RSI So that would be great for that I thought maybe we could just make one of those buttons on both the left and the right side User Interface: Mm we Is it possible to program it s so you got on the left side or on the right side buttons for for shifting you up and shifting up ? And on the other o other side buttons for shifting for for the sound ? Or Or is not it ? Marketing: that could we could do that but I am not sure if that would be very good for the easy ease of use Project Manager: Usabili ease of use will be a lot more difficult Marketing: But if we would make a changing channels and changing volume button on both sides that would certainly yield great options for the design of the remote Because it could be made all symmetrical and stuff Project Manager: But you have extra buttons So people can get confused Especially if they have the same writings on it User Interface: See Or we have to make a left For lefties Project Manager: Can not we make Can not we make a remote which you can flip over and use on the same functions as the normal one ?","As Marketing explained, a single remote control would be designed to fit into an original wooden cover as well as a standard plastic one, in order to meet the differentiated needs of the customers. As a result, besides remote control, two types of cases would also be sold as extra products." "Marketing: So that would be great for that I thought maybe we could just make one of those buttons on both the left and the right side User Interface: Mm we Is it possible to program it s so you got on the left side or on the right side buttons for for shifting you up and shifting up ? And on the other o other side buttons for shifting for for the sound ? Or Or is not it ? Marketing: that could we could do that but I am not sure if that would be very good for the easy ease of use Project Manager: Usabili ease of use will be a lot more difficult Marketing: But if we would make a changing channels and changing volume button on both sides that would certainly yield great options for the design of the remote Because it could be made all symmetrical and stuff Project Manager: But you have extra buttons So people can get confused Especially if they have the same writings on it User Interface: See Or we have to make a left For lefties Project Manager: Can not we make Can not we make a remote which you can flip over and use on the same functions as the normal one ? Let us see if I ca A blank one And then you get Here is a little LCD screen now I have to think It is a plus and a min No it is not very handy I think Because the plus and the min will be opposite No that is not going to work I guess Maybe we should But is it a problem that lefthanded persons use a different hand ? I think the functions are that basic that nobody should have any problems with choosing a channel User Interface: It is just you using your thumb Project Manager: I think we could just leave it a normal shape but maybe we have to make it a l a bit more fancy In one or ano another way","Firstly, despite the convenience of left-handed users, symmetrical button design would create extra buttons and hence inevitably confuse users. Also, Project Manager pointed out that left-handed users have no difficulty handling the remote control by either side of hands. User Interface added that a thumb was sufficient for this motion, so no difference should exist between left and right." Industrial Designer: we could also use wood or titanium,The group decided that speech recognition appeals to mostly younger people. The team decided speech recognition is mostly just a gimmick and is not used unless it works very well. "User Interface: So I do not know if that would still be possible to have you know in plastic But then where do people hold it ? Just all be sort of spongy Marketing: The we can have the fruits and vegetables on the spongy parts so they can remove it User Interface: So you as the the possibility of having a a graphical display on it like a screen ? Like the iPod ? Industrial Designer: You can have an LCD screen but therefore no rubber will be used Alright ? So plastic yes titanium yes but this will of course influence the form With plastic as I understand it you can use any form latex is tricky Or rubber and and titanium also seems to be tricky when it comes to the form So the way to go is if you want a scroll wheel you either make it flat and angular add an LCD screen and then you can basically choose either plastic or titanium Or wood even",Marketing agreed that speech recognition gets old and is a gimmick. Marketing also thought that since younger people are not the consumers spending money on remotes their preference for speech recognition might not matter greatly. Industrial Designer: we could also use wood or titanium,"According to Marketing's research, ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they would spend more money to buy a remote with speech recognition." "User Interface: See things Why is my screen crazy ? Industrial Designer: Well let us see I am going to bore you with a couple of descriptions of the interior Just to to make it more obvious what we have to fit in there and that we do have to fit the stuff in there I have more information on possible materials as well What we can and can not do but let us just wait for this to load up and I will show you what we are talking about here The details of the components design as you can see there what we have is the board main board of the remote control The underside that is pretty cheap piece of of technology really top left side you can see the chip which is the what we were talking about this was is the device to recognise the signals the input and it passes it on to a row of further transistors and stuff like that on the right side that actually amplify the signal which later on is being is being transferred to a infrared lamp which then of course shines infrared light onto the television which then will recognise what signal it is getting and will do what you tell it So much for the the workings of the of the remote control itself Its job is to wait for you to press a key then to translate that key press into infrared light signals that are received by the television When you press a key you complete a specific connection The chip senses the connection and knows what button you pressed It produces a morse code line signal specific to that button Right Pretty clear Transistor amplifies the signal and then sends the m sends the signal to the LED which translates the signal into infrared light The sensor in the TV can see the infrared light and seeing the signal reacts appropriately This is the circuit board from the other side the lower part of it I do not know if you can see that properly with the green greenish board is is what we what we saw in the first the first slide just flipped over you can see the circuit board itself That is the cheapest way to make electronic connections basically on the market what you do is you have do not have cables but you have the connections actually in these in these lines on the on the board These are the actual keys that are being pressed They close the electric circuit That then sends the signal to the chip on the other side That would be behind here which sends it over to the transistors and all that stuff that amplify the signal and all that is being sent to the infrared lamp up there Now as you can see this is the the rubber button version of it the way it works is that you have the keys here The rubber button has a little metal plate on the other side which closes the circuit here And thus gives on the signal Now this is the simple version we are talking this this the simple and cheapest version at the same time We are talking something more complicated of course it is going to be more expensive as well And not only that we are also restricted in the use of our outer she will or in the material that we could use for our outer she will I have gotten some information that we could use for the case material plastic rubber as well rubber that is used in these antistress balls So it is pretty squishy That would that would serve that purpose we could also use wood or titanium Project Manager: What is the approximate per hundred thousand for the titanium ? Industrial Designer: I do not have an information on that However our company obviously can provide us with with the titanium so I assume I am I was given an to use it It certainly is an expensive material",Marketing presented the results of interviews conducted with remote control users. Eighty percent of users indicated that they would be willing to pay more for a remote that looked fancier. Fifty percent of users indicated that they generally only use about ten percent of the buttons on their remote controls. User Interface then presented the difficulties of a universal remote and also mentioned that few buttons are needed frequently by users. "User Interface: See things Why is my screen crazy ? Industrial Designer: Well let us see I am going to bore you with a couple of descriptions of the interior Just to to make it more obvious what we have to fit in there and that we do have to fit the stuff in there I have more information on possible materials as well What we can and can not do but let us just wait for this to load up and I will show you what we are talking about here The details of the components design as you can see there what we have is the board main board of the remote control The underside that is pretty cheap piece of of technology really top left side you can see the chip which is the what we were talking about this was is the device to recognise the signals the input and it passes it on to a row of further transistors and stuff like that on the right side that actually amplify the signal which later on is being is being transferred to a infrared lamp which then of course shines infrared light onto the television which then will recognise what signal it is getting and will do what you tell it So much for the the workings of the of the remote control itself Its job is to wait for you to press a key then to translate that key press into infrared light signals that are received by the television When you press a key you complete a specific connection The chip senses the connection and knows what button you pressed It produces a morse code line signal specific to that button Right Pretty clear Transistor amplifies the signal and then sends the m sends the signal to the LED which translates the signal into infrared light The sensor in the TV can see the infrared light and seeing the signal reacts appropriately This is the circuit board from the other side the lower part of it I do not know if you can see that properly with the green greenish board is is what we what we saw in the first the first slide just flipped over you can see the circuit board itself That is the cheapest way to make electronic connections basically on the market what you do is you have do not have cables but you have the connections actually in these in these lines on the on the board These are the actual keys that are being pressed They close the electric circuit That then sends the signal to the chip on the other side That would be behind here which sends it over to the transistors and all that stuff that amplify the signal and all that is being sent to the infrared lamp up there Now as you can see this is the the rubber button version of it the way it works is that you have the keys here The rubber button has a little metal plate on the other side which closes the circuit here And thus gives on the signal Now this is the simple version we are talking this this the simple and cheapest version at the same time We are talking something more complicated of course it is going to be more expensive as well And not only that we are also restricted in the use of our outer she will or in the material that we could use for our outer she will I have gotten some information that we could use for the case material plastic rubber as well rubber that is used in these antistress balls So it is pretty squishy That would that would serve that purpose we could also use wood or titanium",Marketing thought that making the remote look cool and modern was important. Marketing also thought that many buttons could be removed or combined. Marketing also thought a tracking device and speech recognition could be good ideas. "User Interface: See things Why is my screen crazy ? Industrial Designer: Well let us see I am going to bore you with a couple of descriptions of the interior Just to to make it more obvious what we have to fit in there and that we do have to fit the stuff in there I have more information on possible materials as well What we can and can not do but let us just wait for this to load up and I will show you what we are talking about here The details of the components design as you can see there what we have is the board main board of the remote control The underside that is pretty cheap piece of of technology really top left side you can see the chip which is the what we were talking about this was is the device to recognise the signals the input and it passes it on to a row of further transistors and stuff like that on the right side that actually amplify the signal which later on is being is being transferred to a infrared lamp which then of course shines infrared light onto the television which then will recognise what signal it is getting and will do what you tell it So much for the the workings of the of the remote control itself Its job is to wait for you to press a key then to translate that key press into infrared light signals that are received by the television When you press a key you complete a specific connection The chip senses the connection and knows what button you pressed It produces a morse code line signal specific to that button Right Pretty clear Transistor amplifies the signal and then sends the m sends the signal to the LED which translates the signal into infrared light The sensor in the TV can see the infrared light and seeing the signal reacts appropriately This is the circuit board from the other side the lower part of it I do not know if you can see that properly with the green greenish board is is what we what we saw in the first the first slide just flipped over you can see the circuit board itself That is the cheapest way to make electronic connections basically on the market what you do is you have do not have cables but you have the connections actually in these in these lines on the on the board These are the actual keys that are being pressed They close the electric circuit That then sends the signal to the chip on the other side That would be behind here which sends it over to the transistors and all that stuff that amplify the signal and all that is being sent to the infrared lamp up there Now as you can see this is the the rubber button version of it the way it works is that you have the keys here The rubber button has a little metal plate on the other side which closes the circuit here And thus gives on the signal Now this is the simple version we are talking this this the simple and cheapest version at the same time We are talking something more complicated of course it is going to be more expensive as well And not only that we are also restricted in the use of our outer she will or in the material that we could use for our outer she will I have gotten some information that we could use for the case material plastic rubber as well rubber that is used in these antistress balls So it is pretty squishy That would that would serve that purpose we could also use wood or titanium",Marketing and User Interface agreed on the importance of fewer buttons for a user-centered remote. Marketing and User Interface also agreed on the importance of the appearance of a remote control. "Marketing: Evaluation Kay my task was this time to put up a questionnaire by which we can evaluate the design of the remote control by the questions we requirements from the of the users My name my job The methods Questionnaire with seven point scale from one to seven from true to false like question is remote big enough we can say it is true or it is false by steps One means absolutely not true seven means true The three important things of refa are from th of this year is are is the remote control fancy enough is it in innovative enough and is it easy enough to use And then evaluation itself First question Is the design fancy enough ? Project Manager what do you think ? Project Manager: Well it is looks fancy especially with the green colour And the the curves which we decided Only what happened to the single curve we spoke about last meeting ? User Interface: It oh it is in the background Oh Industrial Designer: Now the single curved idea was you ge User Interface: Y you should make a sideways view Industrial Designer: The sideways view that that that ma User Interface: It will be I guess Oh we can Industrial Designer: Ho not that pen Not that pen User Interface: g I would smart board Project Manager: it might work one time huh User Interface: can I draw here or So it would be something like this from the side but with a bit of curve here Industrial Designer: that is the single curve indeed User Interface: So if you v flip it like this Industrial Designer: That is not very i it is also very handy if you make a side curve way to make the the remote control very thin at the bottom at a bottom at a bottom make it rather thick on the top because on the top it has the screen which takes in some space and the batteries can be located over there User Interface: So you just make the back of this part a bit bigger so that it lays a bit o Marketing: Is not going to be a little bit heavy at the top ? User Interface: that is a bit of problem maybe Marketing: With two batteries the whole print plate and t and top and if you are holding it quite a lot I think User Interface: I think the battery should be in here because it is just nothing Project Manager: but we have to rate these things now ? User Interface: Because otherwise I think i Marketing: Is it fancy enough ? True is one false is seven So fancy enough means does it comes to the younger people and the elder people User Interface: I if you do not make it green then the elder people will not will not like it Marketing: I think I have to agree all the colour colours don don does not matter that m that much now Project Manager: Well I think especially because of the microphone and the LCD screen also User Interface: I do not know whether older people will use it but Project Manager: Very new thing Well Fancy the old people will User Interface: I would make it a two or something Industrial Designer: It is true it is a one Very fancy User Interface: Huh ? Alright it is a one Oh it is a one Project Manager: No it is a two Little bit strange we have to judge that ourselves huh ? Marketing: I n used I wouldn I should use that one but it does not User Interface: But it is a one Maybe Marketing: no it is two ? True is a one Very true is it very true or is not that true ? Project Manager: Well I would say two on a scale User Interface: Well they think it is very true but Industrial Designer: It is very true because we designed it to be very fancy It is very fancy I think Have you ever seen a remote control like this ? Project Manager: No well that is true Industrial Designer: so so it is fancy Project Manager: That does not matter that much so make it a one Marketing: Let us give it a two Is it innovative ? User Interface: because it has an LCD screen a mi microphone Industrial Designer: And the scroll is rubber Marketing: We have for the search function Industrial Designer: so s Eno enough to I think Marketing: The scroller a bit I think it is it is a one User Interface: It is a one I think Marketing: True Also huh uhhuh the buttons are they easy to find ? That was a big requirement of the old people User Interface: because they are right on your screen So you can use the b the the arrows They are right on your screen so I do not know where you would search Marketing: Are all the buttons easy to find ? Not only this buttons all the buttons User Interface: Well I think they are The options are it little bit harder but if you touch the options then it is Industrial Designer: Take a harder look sure Marketing: I think th it is Industrial Designer: It is easier than the regular remote control Project Manager: and you use these buttons the most Marketing: I think this is easy now I think th I think the options buttons are not the the easiest way to to User Interface: No they are not but they are they are they are easy to find Industrial Designer: they are a lot easier to find than th than on the regular remote controls Marketing: I would rate it a Industrial Designer: where you have to find out what which sign or icon means on every button Marketing: that is true that is true Industrial Designer: So you have t you have to use the the the manual to understand most Marketing: But that is that is vantage of LCD screen you can have text Project Manager: So which number are we going to fill in ? Industrial Designer: I think it is it is a two at least User Interface: you can make it a two Industrial Designer: It is not perfect but Project Manager: what do you think ? Marketing: I think it is a three Project Manager: so we have two two three Industrial Designer: And why is that ? Marketing: I personally think because I d I do not think i maybe it is easy to use it has to be easy to find right away I I think if you have the button at the right I do not think you can find the option button that easy User Interface: but you do not have t have to use the button on the right You can touch it You you can touch options Industrial Designer: It said bo both the options Marketing: but you have y then you have here s written option on here the teletext button then good Then I think also two User Interface: and it is comes out Project Manager: It is the box below it Industrial Designer: the next question the next question Project Manager: Otherwise we have two results in one question Marketing: It is easy to use as well for younger as elderl elderly people User Interface: For young people I think it is easy to use Marketing: Young means sixteen to forty years And elderly from forty eight to their death Industrial Designer: I think it is the most useful remote control ever to be manufactured Project Manager: you are very enthusiastic about your own design Marketing: Also if you are sixty years old Industrial Designer: but because it has the regular controls li as you can see in the screen now and you do not have all the other options always on your screen So it is t I think it is really easy to use You want these options to Project Manager: As well for the for the older people ? Marketing: as well as your if you are fif sixty years old you are holding one of those things in your hand User Interface: but but they they do not want the extra options right ? Marketing: No but we are going to th make this f for a all kind of people Project Manager: And would it be easy for them to use the speech recognition ? Marketing: so it it it has to be User Interface: but so they could I think it is If they read a manual Marketing: If you read the manual Industrial Designer: Perhaps that is one of the most Project Manager: M maybe that is the most user friendly and easy to use User Interface: Because it it is not it is not it is it is not difficult You say you say record to to the to the speech recognition then you say the question and the answer And that is everything it does the speech recognition Project Manager: well maybe that would make it even more easy to use for them User Interface: I think it would make it Industrial Designer: Because all the people who can not User Interface: I would make it two Marketing: Not a seven for this ? I would also say three Project Manager: so we have three three two two So what are we going to do ? User Interface: Well Two and a half Marketing: No that that is that is Tha that is a one I think that is definitely a one User Interface: Oh nee oh seven is it ? It is Project Manager: but I think you should make it one scale with with one being good and seven being bad Marketing: I think is not this has to be something like is not overwhelmed Project Manager: because otherwise we can not calculate anything from the results because we designed for that huh ? Marketing: Remote control has colours that different that meet different target groups User Interface: Because we make them in different colours Project Manager: and I though w we had about single colours but you can also make a wood colour not just one single colour but a woodlike thing User Interface: That it that it looks like wood like something Project Manager: Whether it looks like wood it is not w it is not wood User Interface: It it feels like rubber Project Manager: You can make a print on rubber So that is a one then User Interface: Well but then when you scratch it it does come off Marketing: That is a one ? User Interface: So that is a bit Industrial Designer: it is it is harder to Project Manager: Do you have many questions ? but we have We also We have to get to the money Industrial Designer: We are getting paid We are getting paid Marketing: The material used is spongy that that is that is a one that is m rubber I th think it is not the most spongy thing User Interface: but not it is not very spongy because it is hard rubber I think it is a three Industrial Designer: because you want to make it rather flexible but not too flexible User Interface: Hard but You can break it Industrial Designer: because it has a LCD screen Marketing: Remote control is hard to lose Industrial Designer: it sh and it is easy to find User Interface: Y you could you could call it Marketing: Y you can not you can not lose it if you are sixty years old If first time see the thing you didn did not adjust set the microphone and then you lose it then you have lost it User Interface: y you can lose it but it is not hard to lose Marketing: It is not hard no I think I think this is a two personally User Interface: Two That it is hard to lose ? it it is there is the Industrial Designer: Is not hard to lose Project Manager: so is not hard to lose you User Interface: it is a six you think ? Industrial Designer: Is not hard to lose Marketing: Is not hard to lose User Interface: So it is a two you can lose it so I do not Marketing: You can not lose it User Interface: you can make it a three I It does have an a built in function Marketing: Or if you are you are sixty years old your demands Project Manager: but a har A hard to lose is good So it should this question should be hard to lose It is difficult to lose it User Interface: Nee Hard to lose Oh right Industrial Designer: this this is hard to lose User Interface: It is hard to lose so then this is it is almost true Marketing: I think I think also Industrial Designer: And most all because of the option to Whoa Project Manager: it is That happens above also But maybe when you scroll away and back it will be normal Industrial Designer: put the cor cursor on the Marketing: Remote control mainly be sold to younger people ? True ? Very true ? No I do not think very true because the colours We have the colours we have the buttons is are not that that much Nah the material is not that User Interface: It is it is much more younger Industrial Designer: So ma make it make it a two Marketing: So I don I think I think it is a three Project Manager: Well I think it is it is a lower number so better because w we designed it for young people especially User Interface: I think it is a two Project Manager: What do you think ? Industrial Designer: A two ? I think it is two I think it is two too two too too User Interface: Two two two Let us make everything a two Marketing: Because younger peoples are cr critical and they wanted a lot of features on this thing User Interface: Well that it does not Industrial Designer: Well n not exactly but if it had some games on it or something like that but it is for a remote control I think it i it would satisfy those needs User Interface: I think they like the speech You could call to your Marketing: I I think they will be quite met with their expectations Project Manager: but those are more fancy functions not not really many features or something It has relatively few features Marketing: It is three features basically the LCD touch screen is feature The microphone is a feature User Interface: are not the features the microphones feature and that you can change the channels feature and that you can change the volume is feature and that you can change the options of the remote something like that Project Manager: Ours had other features with Marketing: I think and then you have the audio settings channel setting video settings Industrial Designer: The easy volume up button Remote younger people usually use the remote control to put on the volume Turn turn up the volume Marketing: So I have chos I shou I think it is it is it is a one Personally I think once you have because you have the channel features b you have the screen features audio features the you have all buttons on it which you would like microphone extra LCD screen extra scroll thing extra Project Manager: what do you think ? User Interface: I think two or three Project Manager: I would say three so two it is then User Interface: a two a two Just another two Marketing: Make it make it a two Or make it a fucking two You can see the remote control is R and R User Interface: there is R and R in front it is not the colour so maybe you should make two but it has R and R Marketing: oh do did have nah y you have the black one And we will probably make also a yellow one User Interface: but not R and R yellow I think Project Manager: maybe maybe two Well m th but the logo is on on the front User Interface: One d on i it is the colours and the Marketing: And the menu is avail that is available is easy to use User Interface: I think it is but I do not know what you think Industrial Designer: I think it is easier to use than a regular remote control because when you push on the options menu you get the the the various options entirely explained Entirely explained Marketing: tha that is so true Mmhmm Industrial Designer: Instead of just finding out what an icon means on a button User Interface: And you can navigate easier because wi with the you have to push the the the arrows and with a normal TV remote Marketing: I think that wou that would be quite hard to learn to use it Industrial Designer: You are not satisfied Let us start over again then Marketing: No I am not not convinc User Interface: Let us make a different remote Well Marketing: Let us go th for inhalation of air I think it would be a t two Project Manager: Oh well that is that is pretty good User Interface: just twos One three and a few ones Marketing: So we have one three a one that that have to got up Two two two two two User Interface: We m mostly have twos so it is pretty good Marketing: So two The average is a two User Interface: What is it ? It is like a bug or something Project Manager: That was your evaluation show","Based on the analysis of user requirements, the group evaluated remote control by answering questions on the questionnaire. The questions on the questionnaire were mainly about fancy design, innovation, simplicity, target people, shape, colour, material, function, logo, etc. The final average score for remote control design is two. Marketing thought it was a quite good score." "Marketing: Are all the buttons easy to find ? Not only this buttons all the buttons User Interface: Well I think they are The options are it little bit harder but if you touch the options then it is Industrial Designer: Take a harder look sure Marketing: I think th it is Industrial Designer: It is easier than the regular remote control Project Manager: and you use these buttons the most Marketing: I think this is easy now I think th I think the options buttons are not the the easiest way to to User Interface: No they are not but they are they are they are easy to find Industrial Designer: they are a lot easier to find than th than on the regular remote controls Marketing: I would rate it a Industrial Designer: where you have to find out what which sign or icon means on every button Marketing: that is true that is true Industrial Designer: So you have t you have to use the the the manual to understand most Marketing: But that is that is vantage of LCD screen you can have text Project Manager: So which number are we going to fill in ? Industrial Designer: I think it is it is a two at least User Interface: you can make it a two Industrial Designer: It is not perfect but Project Manager: what do you think ? Marketing: I think it is a three Project Manager: so we have two two three Industrial Designer: And why is that ? Marketing: I personally think because I d I do not think i maybe it is easy to use it has to be easy to find right away I I think if you have the button at the right I do not think you can find the option button that easy","Marketing wondered if all the buttons were easy to find. User Interface thought most of the buttons were easy to find except options. Options were easy to find by touch. Meanwhile, Industrial Designer thought all the buttons were easier to find than a regular remote control. However, marketing insisted that options were not found that easy." "Marketing: It is easy to use as well for younger as elderl elderly people User Interface: For young people I think it is easy to use Marketing: Young means sixteen to forty years And elderly from forty eight to their death Industrial Designer: I think it is the most useful remote control ever to be manufactured Project Manager: you are very enthusiastic about your own design Marketing: Also if you are sixty years old Industrial Designer: but because it has the regular controls li as you can see in the screen now and you do not have all the other options always on your screen So it is t I think it is really easy to use You want these options to Project Manager: As well for the for the older people ? Marketing: as well as your if you are fif sixty years old you are holding one of those things in your hand User Interface: but but they they do not want the extra options right ? Marketing: No but we are going to th make this f for a all kind of people Project Manager: And would it be easy for them to use the speech recognition ? Marketing: so it it it has to be User Interface: but so they could I think it is If they read a manual Marketing: If you read the manual Industrial Designer: Perhaps that is one of the most Project Manager: M maybe that is the most user friendly and easy to use User Interface: Because it it is not it is not it is it is not difficult You say you say record to to the to the speech recognition then you say the question and the answer And that is everything it does the speech recognition Project Manager: well maybe that would make it even more easy to use for them User Interface: I think it would make it Industrial Designer: Because all the people who can not","Industrial Designer thought this remote control was the most useful ever with regular and easy controls. In user Interface's opinion, old people can use speech functions after reading manuals. With speech recognition, channels would be changed easily and elder's questions would be answered. Project Manager agreed the speech function would make remote control easier to use, even for elders." "Project Manager: No count number of functions because for every button you have to pay and there are different screen shots so or different different screens Industrial Designer: Danny Danny I will do that Marketing: Huh ? ? Oh yea you design it User Interface: We have got a battery one or t two batteries or not ? nee one battery with two small batteries Project Manager: but it is it is more about the energy source huh ? Do you use a hand dynamo a battery kinetic or solar cells ? User Interface: I would do a battery we do Right ? Industrial Designer: No no solar cell no no no no Marketing: it took a battery ? No we have sample speaker But b al but we also have sample speaker do User Interface: so this one and this one we ha we have single Marketing: Oh we already on nine User Interface: what ? Are we ? Oh yay Industrial Designer: Single nee single curved Double curved was see ju three dimensional But it is not three dimensional it is not curved in a l User Interface: it is not going to work people We have rubber Marketing: This one is curved like this Project Manager: I will just fill it in Marketing: right It is curved like this Industrial Designer: single curved is like this that is the only curve you made not th curved like that That is Marketing: Oh but we have curves like it and it There are two curves right ? Oh I understand I understand User Interface: right ? Is he integrated ? No eh ? I do not know Marketing: Push button No we do not have push button Industrial Designer: we got to integrate scroll wheel and push button because when you push it and you w it will not just pu makes possible to s User Interface: Oh right we want it to it is not it is not no Industrial Designer: Not going to work ? User Interface: Fifteen oh too bad Oh but with special colour we have A special form right ? Industrial Designer: But now button supplements We do not got the button supplements User Interface: Oh we do not have any buttons so Marketing: We have to lower it with six points User Interface: No we have fifteen and We could lose the curve I would lose the curve Industrial Designer: We could lose the scroll wheel You could make it just a regular scroll wheel User Interface: But you can not push it so you have to tap Industrial Designer: if you can not push it you have to tap the the options window button here and then scroll down with the d with with the button Project Manager: I think that will be our best bet User Interface: So normal scroll wheel ? And I think we should lose the curve Marketing: I think we should scrap the sample speaker It is four pri it four units User Interface: but if you would i it is a new feature it it is something special Industrial Designer: so we do not exactly need the single We do not need a curve User Interface: No the curve does not really Industrial Designer: S possible to lose curve Marketing: Curved then it will be square User Interface: No then it will will not stand up from the table Then it would just Marketing: Was that does that mean to it single curve ? Industrial Designer: that is meant with scr with s curve The curve is in a dimension If you make it a flat one s n it is no curve you got no curves User Interface: So We would lose this one ? Marketing: but tha that that only is one User Interface: we could s a bit Industrial Designer: Is it possible to make User Interface: Could could we do it on a regular chip on print or something ? Marketing: No otherwise we do not have an LCD screen User Interface: No ? Ma y you just can not do that or Project Manager: And what did you change ? You changed the scroll wheel User Interface: and the single curved to uncurved Project Manager: Oh but it is just one Marketing: Flat so that does does not does not that mu I think Project Manager: point so maybe you should should you should you should drop the speech recognition Industrial Designer: The sample speaker is two d wait f s four points Project Manager: And then you can keep the curve User Interface: but it is it it is a new feature Project Manager: Or can not you ? Industrial Designer: becau when you lose the Marketing: but what what else what else do you want to scrap ? F You have to we have to scrap four points Project Manager: Or make it on a hand dynamo but I do not think that will work Marketing: Ma make it with wood instead of rubber ? Industrial Designer: Make it w when you made it a remote control of wood ? User Interface: We could make it titanium instead of rubber Industrial Designer: You do not make a remote control of Ah Marketing: it also it also takes one point less Project Manager: but a wooden remote control only helps for old people we discussed User Interface: Oh Oh can I ask something ? What is special colour ? Is that the wood wood this we have to have that one too ? Project Manager: but it is only a half But I think the only option is to drop the sample speaker Industrial Designer: To knock the sample speaker And sample sensor User Interface: Th then we still have too much we we scrap that one ? Industrial Designer: Let us make it thirteen or fourteen User Interface: three We need point three Marketing: That is a scroll wheel User Interface: it is a colour Do not make it wood Marketing: we can make it brown dark brown not wood User Interface: but it is it is special colour is it a all kind of colours ? It is also green or Marketing: no that that is just normal colour fruit colours User Interface: but it is a special colour than just rubber colour You have to add something to the rubber to make it green You do not say here is green rubber Industrial Designer: They do not sell green rubber plants Marketing: but then I d I do not think we can ever make to a twelve and half User Interface: you can you should you have to lose Marketing: But then we have to scrap LCD display we have to scrap User Interface: No it is the scroll wheel I guess Marketing: s advanced chip No then we have to scrap everything we got because how many colours we going to make ? Industrial Designer: If we lose the scroll wheel and make it totally depending dependent on the touch screen Marketing: Five ? Then we have two Industrial Designer: then it is possible to make And then you can and then you can add to the colours Marketing: Then we can make add two colours on it two colours it Industrial Designer: if you lose if you lose the User Interface: It was such a great idea Industrial Designer: You lose this one you got eleven point five Marketing: They can add two colours Industrial Designer: and you make i and then you can make the spec single curve for example Marketing: But the colours how ma the colours like l she told is that all the colours we add or Industrial Designer: How d how many colours ? User Interface: What do you mean ? Industrial Designer: Special colours all the colours you want because you want to make p Marketing: but we we we are we have yellow red black titanium Industrial Designer: but when you use more than one colour it is a special colour User Interface: But I think when you use the colour that is not originally the rubber then you use special colour because you have to add it Marketing: but the rubbers alls original black User Interface: so you always lose the special colour You co you could make it always black like normal remote Marketing: b but we are going to make it yellow red and then you add you have two special colours on top of the one we have now Industrial Designer: Nee we we also want to make ano another colour User Interface: Oh right we should you We have to make this like four or five or something That is what it means Marketing: because we have more colours than only black Project Manager: but is not it per remote that you pay ? Marketing: I then I think I p I don I do not think they me mean they are special User Interface: Oh right Is it per remote ? Project Manager: I think you pay half per remote So each remote with a special colour User Interface: and you one colour per remote So then it is one Industrial Designer: You do not need four of those four of those special colours in one in one remote Marketing: We have two points spare Project Manager: we have advanced chip on print User Interface: One So it would be curved single curve Project Manager: well you can at least make it curved again User Interface: So y you just can not make a nice remote Project Manager: Because that was very important User Interface: It is too bad for the speaker Project Manager: huh ? So it is curved it is still that so we we dropped the speech recognition together with the speaker User Interface: Should we change that tha that that is a one if not Project Manager: We dropped the scroll wheel User Interface: or not ? Could you copy it ? Project Manager: And the rest is the same huh ? Am I right ? Marketing: Y yea the scroll wheel is dropped User Interface: Perhaps you can then copy page or so Ooh No Oh you you made the entire could you By the Perhaps you can save this one and then copy or something Add it copy page Select all Project Manager: but this this new remote we can afford","At first, the cost of remote control was eighteen and a half which highly surpassed the company's budget. Group had to change the design and lose functions so that the budget could fill the company's standard. Under this circumstance, the new design changed shape and lost functions such as scroll and microphone until the cost was twelve fifty. In addition, remote control changed to a single curve shape and battery without a solar cell made of rubber material." "Marketing: We have to lower it with six points User Interface: No we have fifteen and We could lose the curve I would lose the curve Industrial Designer: We could lose the scroll wheel You could make it just a regular scroll wheel User Interface: But you can not push it so you have to tap Industrial Designer: if you can not push it you have to tap the the options window button here and then scroll down with the d with with the button Project Manager: I think that will be our best bet User Interface: So normal scroll wheel ? And I think we should lose the curve Marketing: I think we should scrap the sample speaker It is four pri it four units User Interface: but if you would i it is a new feature it it is something special Industrial Designer: so we do not exactly need the single We do not need a curve User Interface: No the curve does not really Industrial Designer: S possible to lose curve Marketing: Curved then it will be square User Interface: No then it will will not stand up from the table Then it would just Marketing: Was that does that mean to it single curve ? Industrial Designer: that is meant with scr with s curve The curve is in a dimension If you make it a flat one s n it is no curve you got no curves User Interface: So We would lose this one ? Marketing: but tha that that only is one User Interface: we could s a bit Industrial Designer: Is it possible to make User Interface: Could could we do it on a regular chip on print or something ? Marketing: No otherwise we do not have an LCD screen User Interface: No ? Ma y you just can not do that or Project Manager: And what did you change ? You changed the scroll wheel User Interface: and the single curved to uncurved Project Manager: Oh but it is just one Marketing: Flat so that does does not does not that mu I think Project Manager: point so maybe you should should you should you should drop the speech recognition Industrial Designer: The sample speaker is two d wait f s four points Project Manager: And then you can keep the curve User Interface: but it is it it is a new feature Project Manager: Or can not you ? Industrial Designer: becau when you lose the Marketing: but what what else what else do you want to scrap ? F You have to we have to scrap four points Project Manager: Or make it on a hand dynamo but I do not think that will work Marketing: Ma make it with wood instead of rubber ? Industrial Designer: Make it w when you made it a remote control of wood ? User Interface: We could make it titanium instead of rubber Industrial Designer: You do not make a remote control of Ah Marketing: it also it also takes one point less Project Manager: but a wooden remote control only helps for old people we discussed User Interface: Oh Oh can I ask something ? What is special colour ? Is that the wood wood this we have to have that one too ? Project Manager: but it is only a half But I think the only option is to drop the sample speaker Industrial Designer: To knock the sample speaker And sample sensor User Interface: Th then we still have too much we we scrap that one ? Industrial Designer: Let us make it thirteen or fourteen User Interface: three We need point three Marketing: That is a scroll wheel User Interface: it is a colour Do not make it wood Marketing: we can make it brown dark brown not wood User Interface: but it is it is special colour is it a all kind of colours ? It is also green or Marketing: no that that is just normal colour fruit colours User Interface: but it is a special colour than just rubber colour You have to add something to the rubber to make it green You do not say here is green rubber Industrial Designer: They do not sell green rubber plants Marketing: but then I d I do not think we can ever make to a twelve and half User Interface: you can you should you have to lose Marketing: But then we have to scrap LCD display we have to scrap User Interface: No it is the scroll wheel I guess Marketing: s advanced chip No then we have to scrap everything we got because how many colours we going to make ? Industrial Designer: If we lose the scroll wheel and make it totally depending dependent on the touch screen Marketing: Five ? Then we have two Industrial Designer: then it is possible to make And then you can and then you can add to the colours Marketing: Then we can make add two colours on it two colours it Industrial Designer: if you lose if you lose the User Interface: It was such a great idea Industrial Designer: You lose this one you got eleven point five Marketing: They can add two colours Industrial Designer: and you make i and then you can make the spec single curve for example Marketing: But the colours how ma the colours like l she told is that all the colours we add or Industrial Designer: How d how many colours ? User Interface: What do you mean ? Industrial Designer: Special colours all the colours you want because you want to make p Marketing: but we we we are we have yellow red black titanium Industrial Designer: but when you use more than one colour it is a special colour User Interface: But I think when you use the colour that is not originally the rubber then you use special colour because you have to add it Marketing: but the rubbers alls original black User Interface: so you always lose the special colour You co you could make it always black like normal remote Marketing: b but we are going to make it yellow red and then you add you have two special colours on top of the one we have now Industrial Designer: Nee we we also want to make ano another colour User Interface: Oh right we should you We have to make this like four or five or something That is what it means Marketing: because we have more colours than only black Project Manager: but is not it per remote that you pay ? Marketing: I then I think I p I don I do not think they me mean they are special User Interface: Oh right Is it per remote ? Project Manager: I think you pay half per remote So each remote with a special colour User Interface: and you one colour per remote So then it is one Industrial Designer: You do not need four of those four of those special colours in one in one remote Marketing: We have two points spare Project Manager: we have advanced chip on print User Interface: One So it would be curved single curve Project Manager: well you can at least make it curved again User Interface: So y you just can not make a nice remote Project Manager: Because that was very important User Interface: It is too bad for the speaker Project Manager: huh ? So it is curved it is still that so we we dropped the speech recognition together with the speaker User Interface: Should we change that tha that that is a one if not Project Manager: We dropped the scroll wheel User Interface: or not ? Could you copy it ? Project Manager: And the rest is the same huh ? Am I right ? Marketing: Y yea the scroll wheel is dropped User Interface: Perhaps you can then copy page or so Ooh No Oh you you made the entire could you By the Perhaps you can save this one and then copy or something Add it copy page Select all Project Manager: but this this new remote we can afford User Interface: It does not work Let us forget Industrial Designer: so you had this list at start ? Project Manager: ? No I had not Industrial Designer: Alright When did you receive this list ? Project Manager: They do not work so hard at the finance department Industrial Designer: Ah I suppose this is a so we lose the scroll wheel User Interface: A and we changed something I guess or not ? We Oh no","Industrial Designer thought scroll wheel should be changed and the curve was not needed. Project Manager suggested dropping speech recognition for four euros cut. After a discussion about material, function, colour, chip, LCD and shape, the group decided to lose function as scroll wheel and microphone, change colour to only green and shape to single curve so that cost could be twelve fifty." "Project Manager: you should you should drop the speech recognition Industrial Designer: The sample speaker is two d wait f s four points Project Manager: And then you can keep the curve User Interface: but it is it it is a new feature Project Manager: Or can not you ? Industrial Designer: becau when you lose the Marketing: but what what else what else do you want to scrap ? F You have to we have to scrap four points Project Manager: Or make it on a hand dynamo but I do not think that will work Marketing: Ma make it with wood instead of rubber ? Industrial Designer: Make it w when you made it a remote control of wood ? User Interface: We could make it titanium instead of rubber Industrial Designer: You do not make a remote control of Ah Marketing: it also it also takes one point less Project Manager: but a wooden remote control only helps for old people we discussed User Interface: Oh Oh can I ask something ? What is special colour ? Is that the wood wood this we have to have that one too ? Project Manager: but it is only a half But I think the only option is to drop the sample speaker Industrial Designer: To knock the sample speaker And sample sensor User Interface: Th then we still have too much we we scrap that one ? Industrial Designer: Let us make it thirteen or fourteen User Interface: three We need point three Marketing: That is a scroll wheel User Interface: it is a colour Do not make it wood Marketing: we can make it brown dark brown not wood User Interface: but it is it is special colour is it a all kind of colours ? It is also green or Marketing: no that that is just normal colour fruit colours User Interface: but it is a special colour than just rubber colour You have to add something to the rubber to make it green You do not say here is green rubber Industrial Designer: They do not sell green rubber plants Marketing: but then I d I do not think we can ever make to a twelve and half User Interface: you can you should you have to lose Marketing: But then we have to scrap LCD display we have to scrap User Interface: No it is the scroll wheel I guess Marketing: s advanced chip No then we have to scrap everything we got because how many colours we going to make ? Industrial Designer: If we lose the scroll wheel and make it totally depending dependent on the touch screen Marketing: Five ? Then we have two Industrial Designer: then it is possible to make And then you can and then you can add to the colours Marketing: Then we can make add two colours on it two colours it Industrial Designer: if you lose if you lose the User Interface: It was such a great idea Industrial Designer: You lose this one you got eleven point five Marketing: They can add two colours Industrial Designer: and you make i and then you can make the spec single curve for example Marketing: But the colours how ma the colours like l she told is that all the colours we add or Industrial Designer: How d how many colours ? User Interface: What do you mean ? Industrial Designer: Special colours all the colours you want because you want to make p Marketing: but we we we are we have yellow red black titanium Industrial Designer: but when you use more than one colour it is a special colour User Interface: But I think when you use the colour that is not originally the rubber then you use special colour because you have to add it Marketing: but the rubbers alls original black User Interface: so you always lose the special colour You co you could make it always black like normal remote Marketing: b but we are going to make it yellow red and then you add you have two special colours on top of the one we have now Industrial Designer: Nee we we also want to make ano another colour User Interface: Oh right we should you We have to make this like four or five or something That is what it means Marketing: because we have more colours than only black Project Manager: but is not it per remote that you pay ? Marketing: I then I think I p I don I do not think they me mean they are special User Interface: Oh right Is it per remote ? Project Manager: I think you pay half per remote So each remote with a special colour User Interface: and you one colour per remote So then it is one Industrial Designer: You do not need four of those four of those special colours in one in one remote Marketing: We have two points spare Project Manager: we have advanced chip on print User Interface: One So it would be curved single curve Project Manager: well you can at least make it curved again User Interface: So y you just can not make a nice remote Project Manager: Because that was very important User Interface: It is too bad for the speaker Project Manager: huh ? So it is curved it is still that so we we dropped the speech recognition together with the speaker User Interface: Should we change that tha that that is a one if not Project Manager: We dropped the scroll wheel User Interface: or not ? Could you copy it ? Project Manager: And the rest is the same huh ? Am I right ? Marketing: Y yea the scroll wheel is dropped User Interface: Perhaps you can then copy page or so Ooh No Oh you you made the entire could you By the Perhaps you can save this one and then copy or something Add it copy page Select all","Project Manager suggested scrap speech recognition to cut four euros. User interface insisted that speech recognition was a special and new feature so it shouldn't be lost. However, compared to advanced chip and curve shape, the group decided to cut the speech recognition function." "Marketing: can I steal the cable ? Project Manager: Oh sorry you can indeed Marketing: I got a how do I start there ? Project Manager: Oh if you click on the the one that that looks like a projection screen no the one to the right of that That one Marketing: That one Cool Well these are functionality requirements from the our our guys down in the the research lab Took hundred people and covered all the aspects of what is needed by people and what they want to see everything kind of from functionality and how individual functions are how mu how how often they are used and how much their necessary and stuff And general opinions about current current remotes See that as we kind of noticed seventy five percent of people find their remote controls ugly So some kind of a new style should be incorporated that is less ugly along with looking less ugly if it looks better eighty percent of people said they would spend more money on it Which is a a plus for us if we can make it look better it would be more cost effective and we can put the price up Current remote controls do not match the operating behaviour of the user I can empl I kind of take that to mean as they they do not they they only use they only work for the television or like as in in my flat I have got six remote controls for a stereo system a digital box a DVD player a video player and TV If it was I mean th my behaviour is to use multiple things at the same time and multiple remotes are not really matched well to my behaviour again seventy five percent is seventy five percent of users say they zap a lot I took to mean that they just they use it a lot they use it regularly rather than standing up and manually change channels or volume And I think the big issue is fifty percent users only use ten percent of the buttons because wh if we got a remote that like well we will have some buttons taken off by the lack of teletext but oh and we are going to see on the that some of the functions like audio settings are not h hardly ever used and used very are not considered relevant by the user So I think maybe fewer buttons which also make the design look sleeker I do not know and frustrations of like people losing remote control I do not know maybe some kind of system of you press a button on the TV or maybe that is b it would have to incorporate but like some kind of system where you can f use something else to find the remote control Maybe like it will beep or something And yep the time taken to learn new remote controls is do not want to make it too complicated easy to use for new like first time users and stuff And repetitive strain injury I suppose we should make it more comfortable and make ma possibly even use have to make it fewer buttons like I was saying about the whole mice the mouse idea of it feels more comfortable Maybe do not even have to hold it as such Project Manager: Gosh must be some telly addicts out there if they get RSI from their television remote is all I can say Marketing: But It also asked if we would if people would pay more for speech recognition and younger people say they would And there was another section on our on the report for LCD displays but the data was not there so I do not actually know what the results for that were so May be incrementally emitting but Project Manager: I must say that the I c can not remember what f you know phone service I was using the other day but that had sorta speech recognition which worked remarkably well so that is indeed a a thought Marketing: And it would cut out the RSI as well if you Project Manager: and it it cuts out I was was going to say you can not get a lot of RSI j just get jaw ache sorry Marketing: oh so possibly the speech recognition is possibly something could add into the design Oh I have got some other things I could not fit onto this presentation You see this ? Almost no ? It is sorry it is a bit I will read out to you functionality like peoples opinions on functionality the relevance to the remote and how often they are used So like the power Using the using the d swi the power switch to switch on TV is a high relevance of nine but it is not frequently used You see what I mean ? Whereas channel selection which is very high relevance is used the most So m we can maybe even start to cut down on or I was possibly even thinking of a design that maybe some of the buttons are hidden from everyday use Maybe like a folding ledge or something So that we can maybe go into the channel settings and the audio settings and rarely used And keep the v volume selection and channel selection very easily User Interface: It could be oh I was just going to say maybe like the flip phones that they use ? Have you seen the new mo mobile phones that flip out and they have the like texting and then the numbers on one side you could have the most used buttons on top and flip it out or something Marketing: like the one that like slides back Project Manager: Should we actually bite the bullet here ? Marketing: and the buttons are concealed underneath Project Manager: If people really do not use those buttons to any extent at all remove them altogether Marketing: Just remove them completely ? Project Manager: We we could actually have we could actually have a remote control with I wonder whether we could get the remote control with no buttons at all if we went for voice recognition given that the now the the age structure we were looking at I mean w we had usage by age structure what we did not have was what proportion of people using remotes were in those particular age groups Now do we know whether they Forty no sorry for forty five to fifty five age group to put myself right in the middle of it you use remote controls to a great extent Marketing: no this is for pay more for speech recognition Project Manager: That would ve speech recogn right So we are looking at well again we do not know the relative proportion the relative numbers in the age groups If we wanted something different truly different then the buttonless remote control w would be it Industrial Designer: P Well the only problem I can think of with that is if you have got a lot of people that do not want to be bothered learning how to use new rem remote controls If you just kind of take away everything that they are used to knowing that is going to be quite a change Project Manager: But if you just lift it up and say channel one or BBC Marketing: Or even I mean you could even just have it left on You could just put it down once on top your TV and never have to User Interface: have a big kind of like the satellite box or the cable box and have it just go on the TV and then it does not matter where in the room you are you will not lose it Project Manager: It c well it I can I can see technical problems with that in terms of the you know the sound from the television because if somebody actually on the television says you know ITV and you are watching BBC then then it might change itself so it probably needs to be possibly actually need a button on it Or or something just to identify that you have lifted it up and it is use And and then just say oh I do not know a thought and and then I mean that that would certainly be truly different because you know audio settings nought point eight percent I mean if they were not there would people miss them ? Industrial Designer: But look at the importance of them The volume settings Marketing: Relevance of two out of ten Industrial Designer: They are not used often but they are quite important when they are used Project Manager: w we need to s identify things that people actually need and and it is a function of frequency and relevance And I would say ignoring ig ignoring power for the moment the channel and volume and th w w given given that we have been told to ignore teletext channel and volume are the only ones that would appear to be essential So if we can design something that that looks interesting know or looks different incorporates the the logo and and the colours and we can still have our interchangeable fascias even if it is the yellow and grey and I do not know buttons or or buttons as an option Marketing: I just had a thought actually sorry to interrupt you were saying about it could technical problems of like someone on the television saying a channel number and it changed we could maybe have like an activation word Because I have seen I have seen this used on computers before where you just you address the remote you address the computer and then give it a command Project Manager: if we want to make this so simple that anybody can walk into the room and lift it up and say Marketing: Oh I see Oh I see Project Manager: BBC one I mean you could print actually print it on the Marketing: I mean I am just thinking of the point of view of peop you could still like lose this remote Project Manager: S th this I th that is always going to be a problem I think and I I I s so I suppose one could make it so desirable that if people lose it they immediately go out and buy another one Anyway sorry carry on Do you want to just carry on with no no no b I was in the middle of in the middle of your report there Marketing: sorry Oh well I was just kind of wrapping up there I was thinking maybe such things are relevant We could make things much more f I think the the eighty percent of people would spend more on a remote that looks better combined with decrease the or take out the limited functio functions that we do not really use much alright take out teletext but as for channel settings and stuff it might it might turn people somewhe peop some people that want the whole functionality away But since if we are marketing a more kind of fashionable approach then it would it would be fashion and fashion over practicality Project Manager: Mmhmm S s we could we could make it dual function voice recognition and still have buttons on it Marketing: Oh we could We c we could even have it as like a the buttons control this and the voice functions control the f things that you would do all the time so So if we could power on and channel selection and and volume selection would not have to really Project Manager: The I mean the the advantage of doing away the buttons altogether is it makes the thing cheaper Marketing: and probably it would look better as well Project Manager: No it cou certainly opens up the possibility for making it you know visually very distinctive because you know it does not have to be a oblong box Marketing: Lined with numbered buttons and Project Manager: Mm who sorry have you have you finished there Andy ? Yep yep given that we have already had a extensive discussion User Interface: well I can do mine Marketing: Do you want the cable ? User Interface: let us see if I can make this work Industrial Designer: Oh you have to hit like function and F something Marketing: give it about twenty seconds or so User Interface: Oh so this is just about the technical functions So the method I looked online for examples of other similar products and then just kind of was trying to brainstorm some possible design ideas and identify what the necessary things are what people are what you really want to have a remote control do and then there are two different kinds that I found There is a user centred one and an engineering centred one which I will have pictures of and then we kind of have to decide which one this should be So these are the two different ones This one this is the user centred it has quite a few mm fewer buttons and then this is the engineering centred which has a lot more buttons and probably this is one that people complain about about having too many buttons that you do not use So basically what a remote control is is you it is to send messages to the television set you know turn on off switch the channels and the volume and things such as that And so for this product it is going to be television only and then it has to have the logos for the company and the colours And so for my personal preferences I think this one is easier to use and has quite a you know fewer buttons we want something that sends messages easily to the television and I was kind of wondering about this example that they have It looks kind of narrow at the top and I was thinking maybe if it were wider at the top then that would be easier and so we have to decide what is going to make our product different E the unique style maybe have it light up so it is visible in the dark the changeable faceplates and the lighting up and visible I was when we were talking about havi losing it maybe to have a button on the television that you press and it maybe if it makes a noise or lights up or something like that so it is easier to find if someone has hidden under the couch or something like that So that is my presentation",Marketing summarized the market research results and revealed that fifty percent users only use ten percent of the buttons. So the team proposed to reduce buttons to a minimum. Marketing believed that speech recognition could also contribute to this regard. User Interface showed a user-centred remote control and an engineering-centred one and preferred the user-centred one as it had fewer buttons and was easier to hold. "Marketing: But It also asked if we would if people would pay more for speech recognition and younger people say they would And there was another section on our on the report for LCD displays but the data was not there so I do not actually know what the results for that were so May be incrementally emitting but Project Manager: I must say that the I c can not remember what f you know phone service I was using the other day but that had sorta speech recognition which worked remarkably well so that is indeed a a thought Marketing: And it would cut out the RSI as well if you Project Manager: and it it cuts out I was was going to say you can not get a lot of RSI j just get jaw ache sorry Marketing: oh so possibly the speech recognition is possibly something could add into the design Oh I have got some other things I could not fit onto this presentation You see this ? Almost no ? It is sorry it is a bit I will read out to you functionality like peoples opinions on functionality the relevance to the remote and how often they are used So like the power Using the using the d swi the power switch to switch on TV is a high relevance of nine but it is not frequently used You see what I mean ? Whereas channel selection which is very high relevance is used the most So m we can maybe even start to cut down on or I was possibly even thinking of a design that maybe some of the buttons are hidden from everyday use Maybe like a folding ledge or something So that we can maybe go into the channel settings and the audio settings and rarely used And keep the v volume selection and channel selection very easily User Interface: It could be oh I was just going to say maybe like the flip phones that they use ? Have you seen the new mo mobile phones that flip out and they have the like texting and then the numbers on one side you could have the most used buttons on top and flip it out or something Marketing: like the one that like slides back Project Manager: Should we actually bite the bullet here ? Marketing: and the buttons are concealed underneath Project Manager: If people really do not use those buttons to any extent at all remove them altogether Marketing: Just remove them completely ? Project Manager: We we could actually have we could actually have a remote control with I wonder whether we could get the remote control with no buttons at all if we went for voice recognition given that the now the the age structure we were looking at I mean w we had usage by age structure what we did not have was what proportion of people using remotes were in those particular age groups Now do we know whether they Forty no sorry for forty five to fifty five age group to put myself right in the middle of it you use remote controls to a great extent Marketing: no this is for pay more for speech recognition Project Manager: That would ve speech recogn right So we are looking at well again we do not know the relative proportion the relative numbers in the age groups If we wanted something different truly different then the buttonless remote control w would be it Industrial Designer: P Well the only problem I can think of with that is if you have got a lot of people that do not want to be bothered learning how to use new rem remote controls If you just kind of take away everything that they are used to knowing that is going to be quite a change Project Manager: But if you just lift it up and say channel one or BBC Marketing: Or even I mean you could even just have it left on You could just put it down once on top your TV and never have to User Interface: have a big kind of like the satellite box or the cable box and have it just go on the TV and then it does not matter where in the room you are you will not lose it Project Manager: It c well it I can I can see technical problems with that in terms of the you know the sound from the television because if somebody actually on the television says you know ITV and you are watching BBC then then it might change itself so it probably needs to be possibly actually need a button on it Or or something just to identify that you have lifted it up and it is use And and then just say oh I do not know a thought and and then I mean that that would certainly be truly different because you know audio settings nought point eight percent I mean if they were not there would people miss them ? Industrial Designer: But look at the importance of them The volume settings Marketing: Relevance of two out of ten Industrial Designer: They are not used often but they are quite important when they are used Project Manager: w we need to s identify things that people actually need and and it is a function of frequency and relevance And I would say ignoring ig ignoring power for the moment the channel and volume and th w w given given that we have been told to ignore teletext channel and volume are the only ones that would appear to be essential So if we can design something that that looks interesting know or looks different incorporates the the logo and and the colours and we can still have our interchangeable fascias even if it is the yellow and grey and I do not know buttons or or buttons as an option Marketing: I just had a thought actually sorry to interrupt you were saying about it could technical problems of like someone on the television saying a channel number and it changed we could maybe have like an activation word Because I have seen I have seen this used on computers before where you just you address the remote you address the computer and then give it a command Project Manager: if we want to make this so simple that anybody can walk into the room and lift it up and say Marketing: Oh I see Oh I see Project Manager: BBC one I mean you could print actually print it on the Marketing: I mean I am just thinking of the point of view of peop you could still like lose this remote Project Manager: S th this I th that is always going to be a problem I think and I I I s so I suppose one could make it so desirable that if people lose it they immediately go out and buy another one Anyway sorry carry on Do you want to just carry on with no no no b I was in the middle of in the middle of your report there Marketing: sorry Oh well I was just kind of wrapping up there I was thinking maybe such things are relevant We could make things much more f I think the the eighty percent of people would spend more on a remote that looks better combined with decrease the or take out the limited functio functions that we do not really use much alright take out teletext but as for channel settings and stuff it might it might turn people somewhe peop some people that want the whole functionality away But since if we are marketing a more kind of fashionable approach then it would it would be fashion and fashion over practicality Project Manager: Mmhmm S s we could we could make it dual function voice recognition and still have buttons on it",Marketing proposed to apply speech recognition and suggested that some of the buttons could be hidden from everyday use. Project Manager agreed and proposed to get the remote control with no buttons but later rejected the idea and supposed that dual functions could be used. "Project Manager: If people really do not use those buttons to any extent at all remove them altogether Marketing: Just remove them completely ? Project Manager: We we could actually have we could actually have a remote control with I wonder whether we could get the remote control with no buttons at all if we went for voice recognition given that the now the the age structure we were looking at I mean w we had usage by age structure what we did not have was what proportion of people using remotes were in those particular age groups Now do we know whether they Forty no sorry for forty five to fifty five age group to put myself right in the middle of it you use remote controls to a great extent Marketing: no this is for pay more for speech recognition Project Manager: That would ve speech recogn right So we are looking at well again we do not know the relative proportion the relative numbers in the age groups If we wanted something different truly different then the buttonless remote control w would be it Industrial Designer: P Well the only problem I can think of with that is if you have got a lot of people that do not want to be bothered learning how to use new rem remote controls If you just kind of take away everything that they are used to knowing that is going to be quite a change Project Manager: But if you just lift it up and say channel one or BBC Marketing: Or even I mean you could even just have it left on You could just put it down once on top your TV and never have to User Interface: have a big kind of like the satellite box or the cable box and have it just go on the TV and then it does not matter where in the room you are you will not lose it Project Manager: It c well it I can I can see technical problems with that in terms of the you know the sound from the television because if somebody actually on the television says you know ITV and you are watching BBC then then it might change itself so it probably needs to be possibly actually need a button on it Or or something just to identify that you have lifted it up and it is use And and then just say oh I do not know a thought and and then I mean that that would certainly be truly different because you know audio settings nought point eight percent I mean if they were not there would people miss them ? Industrial Designer: But look at the importance of them The volume settings Marketing: Relevance of two out of ten Industrial Designer: They are not used often but they are quite important when they are used Project Manager: w we need to s identify things that people actually need and and it is a function of frequency and relevance And I would say ignoring ig ignoring power for the moment the channel and volume and th w w given given that we have been told to ignore teletext channel and volume are the only ones that would appear to be essential","Age group data for remote control use was not available; many people may not want to learn to use the new remote control; some buttons are still needed, such as channel control, volume settings and on/off." "Project Manager: can I I am actually going to use the it is going to because great technical problems over here I am actually going to use the User Interface: F they probably clip to you Industrial Designer: Oh they might be movable Oh they are all they are not connected to anything on the table you just leave them on and walk around with them Project Manager: Yes rather than the the the traditional in fact I will not even go that far something like this shape you know sort of something that you can that is sort of a more vertical shape that you you sort of hold in your hand well I am trying to think l l such as I mean something you hold up like that possibly with a couple of buttons like that but with the the entire top with the you know the the infrared or whatever source so that you know it is flying off in all directions so that again the n need to look at the the the technicalities of actually achieving that in terms of whether the you know the power requirements of the such a source you know compromise the our our need for you know it it being mm permanently you know available whether whether different technology I mean th all all these remotes are presumably infrared and like they have been for a long time we we possibly need to be looking at at at something different you know short range not like the old radio remote controls where you would change next doors telly when you change yours but I think basically i if we are going for i if minimum number of buttons is our priority then we should as I say r know really bite the bullets and and reduce the buttons to absolute minimum you know possibly with backup channel and volume buttons and on off and nothing else so that it can al it could almost end up like that but again except that you know the risk of losing it anyway so Kate wh what are your your thoughts on this ? Industrial Designer: Which one does this plug into ? User Interface: I think it is all there Industrial Designer: I can not did you could you see it on you screen when it User Interface: That is kind of strange Industrial Designer: Oh well Anyways alright so I will just do my presentation on the working design Oh there we go just at the m the whole sort of method of how the remote control works the basic function of the remote control is to send messages to another sh system the the TV or the DVD player or whatever and it does this by well you need to start off you need an energy source and this energy source will feed into an integrated circuit chip and the circuit chip is the part that actually composes the different messages within the remote which will then be sent to the the television the DVD to tell that what to do and you need a user interface which controls the chip and thus the messages and the user interface is that is basically just you kn the s sorta design of the actual remote which you hold in your hands and what buttons will be on it Oh shoot just general findings what we need technically speaking for the remote control is some sort of energy source some sort of user interface which I think we have mostly been talking about the user interface and the design of that a circuit chip within that to control and send the messages and a sender and receiver And oops Uhhuh This is just sort of a little schematic diagram of what we are looking for this just kind of represents the energy source which feeds into the circuit chip which maybe then we could have that feed into a switch which would send signals f to a subcomponent and on to a light bulb between so it will light up once we start once you start pressing buttons also send signals to the infrared bulb which will be the part that actually what ? Sends signals to the the television And then you have got your happy little TV watcher there And so my personal preferences I I just think we need sorta big energy source that will not die out perhaps some sort of rechargeable battery or a battery dock you could place it in so it would constantly be charged so you would not have to be worrying about it running out of batteries and not changing channels for you a wide range senderreceiver so that you can hit the buttons from basically anywhere in the room and the channelll still be changed also definitely a userfriendly interface and I think we have all sort of mentioned adding a a locating device on it so when it does get stuck under the couch cushions as they inevitably do you can find them easily And that is pretty much it Project Manager: it seems seems to me there are a number of fundamental decisions to make before we I think your point about the the big energy source is a very valid one I do not suppose we have got any statistics on the the life expectancy of remote controls particularly sort of independent ones given you know the number of things you buy these days which you know have a a a lithium whatever battery in that is you know never needs replacing perhaps we should have the the disposable remote control you know one some sort of typical usage You know the the the battery will last know five ten years By which time I mean when alls said and done the digital television will be taking over in that time scale p perhaps we should know reduce the you know the sort of moving parts even more by not even having a battery compartment and Industrial Designer: Just having one that is guaranteed to last five to ten years ? Project Manager: and if if anybody manages to run it down we will we will give them a new one it is you know it is what it saves in cost and you know there there is a well it is actually a marketing gimmick I mean it is hardly a gimmick it is it is totally practical so I th think you know the idea of a rechargeable one is unless you are really high tech and it sort of just recharges itself if it is n by you know magnetic waves or whatever if if it Marketing: It could have like know like a cordless phone in your house it s got like a base that sits there all the time Project Manager: Are are people really going to use it though ? User Interface: I would think that people might forget Project Manager: I I th I think User Interface: I mean people forget to put their cordless phones back on there Project Manager: I mean I know that somei times my my wife goes out in the morning and says oh I should have put the phone on to charge and then then she is had those for so long that if she has not worked that out by now Industrial Designer: Because I only remember to charge my cell phone when battery dies And that is pretty much Project Manager: When it wh when it is died is a problem Industrial Designer: when it turns itself off that is when I plug it in Project Manager: what so wh what what do we think about the the the permanent mm battery ? Industrial Designer: think that is a good idea Project Manager: Is the you know we we we are really going for the ultimate in ex external simplicity here you know cut cost within the manufacturing and you know if we have a high tech interior then then that that sh may well be cost effective User Interface: Do they make batteries that last that long ? Project Manager: I mean th th certainly I can not think of anything off the s top of my head Industrial Designer: They usually have the little light source Project Manager: but there are certainly things that you buy I mean calculators for example Industrial Designer: I do not know what the heck they are called User Interface: they have that little solar Project Manager: I mean th th but there are battery ones that are you know sort of permanently sealed In in fact I would Industrial Designer: Most of them do not they have sort of a combination of the two like when there is light they will work off the light and if there is not they will kick into this battery so we can maybe do something like that whereas there is a battery but if there is enough light then it is using the light so that it is not actually draining the battery all the time but you will have the battery there for when you need it Project Manager: I I mean th th this needs going t into the technology a bit I mean the the actual time that a remote control is actually operating I would think is i is is probably you know no more than minutes in its entire life Industrial Designer: Oh it depend if it is depends who who is using it who is just sitting there clicking clicking clicking clicking Project Manager: If but I say if if people are getting RSI from it then then then then perhaps we are looking at the wrong market Industrial Designer: then they are clicking a lot Marketing: like like this this market research thing says number of times per hour that it is used channel selection a hundred and sixty eight User Interface: Wow That is a lot Project Manager: Oh I must admit I had not I would I would missed that That does sound excessive Marketing: But then again if you think it of the amount of you know amount of use it is like That is it is less than a second Project Manager: Well that is right and and I I do not I do not even know whether the I do not even know whether the s the signal lasts as long as you actually keep the button pressed or whether it is just a sorta tenth of a second no matter how long you press it for I do not know I do not actually know User Interface: Though I think with digital TV like I know on my cable box you are not supposed to do that because the channel can not keep up with it if you just press it like that so you are supposed to use the menu and go through the different channels that way instead of Project Manager: Right so I have got a message to say five minutes I do not know how long ago that appeared because we are we are getting","Project Manager expected to have a remote control permanently available. Industrial Designer proposed to have a rechargeable battery or a battery dock, while Project Manager preferred a disposable one. Then Industrial Designer came up with a combination of both solar and conventional batteries." "Project Manager: I think your point about the the big energy source is a very valid one I do not suppose we have got any statistics on the the life expectancy of remote controls particularly sort of independent ones given you know the number of things you buy these days which you know have a a a lithium whatever battery in that is you know never needs replacing perhaps we should have the the disposable remote control you know one some sort of typical usage You know the the the battery will last know five ten years By which time I mean when alls said and done the digital television will be taking over in that time scale p perhaps we should know reduce the you know the sort of moving parts even more by not even having a battery compartment and Industrial Designer: Just having one that is guaranteed to last five to ten years ? Project Manager: and if if anybody manages to run it down we will we will give them a new one it is you know it is what it saves in cost and you know there there is a well it is actually a marketing gimmick I mean it is hardly a gimmick it is it is totally practical so I th think you know the idea of a rechargeable one is unless you are really high tech and it sort of just recharges itself if it is n by you know magnetic waves or whatever if if it Marketing: It could have like know like a cordless phone in your house it s got like a base that sits there all the time Project Manager: Are are people really going to use it though ? User Interface: I would think that people might forget Project Manager: I I th I think User Interface: I mean people forget to put their cordless phones back on there Project Manager: I mean I know that somei times my my wife goes out in the morning and says oh I should have put the phone on to charge and then then she is had those for so long that if she has not worked that out by now Industrial Designer: Because I only remember to charge my cell phone when battery dies And that is pretty much Project Manager: When it wh when it is died is a problem Industrial Designer: when it turns itself off that is when I plug it in Project Manager: what so wh what what do we think about the the the permanent mm battery ?",Project Manager preferred to have disposable remote control of which battery life was predetermined and proposed to move parts more by not even having a battery compartment. The usage of permanent batteries was also proposed. "Industrial Designer: And so my personal preferences I I just think we need sorta big energy source that will not die out perhaps some sort of rechargeable battery or a battery dock you could place it in so it would constantly be charged so you would not have to be worrying about it running out of batteries and not changing channels for you a wide range senderreceiver so that you can hit the buttons from basically anywhere in the room and the channelll still be changed also definitely a userfriendly interface and I think we have all sort of mentioned adding a a locating device on it so when it does get stuck under the couch cushions as they inevitably do you can find them easily And that is pretty much it Project Manager: it seems seems to me there are a number of fundamental decisions to make before we I think your point about the the big energy source is a very valid one I do not suppose we have got any statistics on the the life expectancy of remote controls particularly sort of independent ones given you know the number of things you buy these days which you know have a a a lithium whatever battery in that is you know never needs replacing perhaps we should have the the disposable remote control you know one some sort of typical usage You know the the the battery will last know five ten years By which time I mean when alls said and done the digital television will be taking over in that time scale p perhaps we should know reduce the you know the sort of moving parts even more by not even having a battery compartment and Industrial Designer: Just having one that is guaranteed to last five to ten years ? Project Manager: and if if anybody manages to run it down we will we will give them a new one it is you know it is what it saves in cost and you know there there is a well it is actually a marketing gimmick I mean it is hardly a gimmick it is it is totally practical so I th think you know the idea of a rechargeable one is unless you are really high tech and it sort of just recharges itself if it is n by you know magnetic waves or whatever if if it Marketing: It could have like know like a cordless phone in your house it s got like a base that sits there all the time Project Manager: Are are people really going to use it though ? User Interface: I would think that people might forget Project Manager: I I th I think User Interface: I mean people forget to put their cordless phones back on there Project Manager: I mean I know that somei times my my wife goes out in the morning and says oh I should have put the phone on to charge and then then she is had those for so long that if she has not worked that out by now Industrial Designer: Because I only remember to charge my cell phone when battery dies And that is pretty much Project Manager: When it wh when it is died is a problem Industrial Designer: when it turns itself off that is when I plug it in Project Manager: what so wh what what do we think about the the the permanent mm battery ? Industrial Designer: think that is a good idea Project Manager: Is the you know we we we are really going for the ultimate in ex external simplicity here you know cut cost within the manufacturing and you know if we have a high tech interior then then that that sh may well be cost effective User Interface: Do they make batteries that last that long ? Project Manager: I mean th th certainly I can not think of anything off the s top of my head Industrial Designer: They usually have the little light source Project Manager: but there are certainly things that you buy I mean calculators for example Industrial Designer: I do not know what the heck they are called User Interface: they have that little solar Project Manager: I mean th th but there are battery ones that are you know sort of permanently sealed In in fact I would Industrial Designer: Most of them do not they have sort of a combination of the two like when there is light they will work off the light","Industrial Designer initially proposed to have rechargeable energy sources and then suggested a combination of both solar and conventional batteries. It means that if there's enough light, then it's using the light, but when it is dark, then the battery is used." "User Interface: Well I think I find a lot of them really complicated to use with all the different buttons and it is handiest when you have one that works both the DVD player or whatever and the TV as well but that it is easy to if you can switch back and forth instead of having to press a bunch of different buttons and so I think it is is best when they are clearly labelled and you can see which buttons you are supposed to use you know Project Manager: Any any thoughts about buttons or any oth other way of approaching the p the the problem ? Or anybody else strong feelings about remote controls ? Are there you know bad ones they have used or good ones they have used or ones that they have lost and never found again ? Industrial Designer: I think it is important that you should be able to when you when you press the buttons it will actually pick up the signals from kind of anywhere and you should not have to like contort yourself and twist your remote control to get it the TV to actually pick up the signal Marketing: Think a lot of the time remotes that come with TV players and TVs and DV players like they are not like an area that is put a lot of effort into they are very boring very plain Like it is very a very like making a a stylish remote control would be a very like Easily put us one step ahead of the current competition Project Manager: what so wh what is in in what particular style features are you thinking about ? Marketing: Something that looks looks does not look like remote control So if you want something that looks like something that makes you think oh what is this ? Like this pen does not really look like a pen but it makes you think oh So sorry that is a bit vague Project Manager: d no I mean do you think there is a risk if it does not look like remote control people will not see it as a remote control and Marketing: I suppose suppose that is up to the marketing to to make make people aware of the product Project Manager: Uhhuh Any other thoughts about th the physical appearance of a of remote controls ? User Interface: I think something that is comfortable to hold because sometimes you get the remote controls that are just those big rectangular things and they are kind of awkward to hold onto so something that is more comfortable that fits in a persons hand better Project Manager: I mean th the thing that i immediately comes to mind is computer mouses which I mean y you get all sorts of shapes in the shops and s you know some quite fancy ones than the some from personal experience which look nice but are not particularly comfortable any thoughts about buttons or flat screens or Marketing: Well from the mouse idea you could remote is a piece of plastic with the big rubber buttons sticking out of it which you press whereas if you want could all be flat and the buttons are very kind of almost subtle that instead of being raised out of the device you push into device you see like a mouse button Project Manager: Yes I mean the only thing is if if you are watching television in a in a a darkened room you need to be able to fi find the button buttons easily User Interface: But maybe they could be concave instead of sticking up to have them be kind of down so you could feel them Project Manager: that is must admit I do not think I have ever seen one with concave buttons that is certainly be different do we need it to I can not think of any re remote controls that I know of that actually light up at all Do we do we want Industrial Designer: Mm that would be good User Interface: Like a like a mobile phone ? Marketing: Mm that would be good","Marketing proposed to make a stylish remote control. User Interface preferred a remote control that was comfortable to hold. In order to make buttons easy to find, User Interface pointed out that they could be made concave. Project Manager agreed and supposed that the buttons could be made illuminated so that people could see them in dark rooms." "Project Manager: what so wh what is in in what particular style features are you thinking about ? Marketing: Something that looks looks does not look like remote control So if you want something that looks like something that makes you think oh what is this ? Like this pen does not really look like a pen but it makes you think oh So sorry that is a bit vague Project Manager: d no I mean do you think there is a risk if it does not look like remote control people will not see it as a remote control and","As Marketing proposed to make a remote control that doesn't look like remote control, Project Manager was concerned that customers wouldn't recognize it and just pass it." "User Interface: I think something that is comfortable to hold because sometimes you get the remote controls that are just those big rectangular things and they are kind of awkward to hold onto so something that is more comfortable that fits in a persons hand better Project Manager: I mean th the thing that i immediately comes to mind is computer mouses which I mean y you get all sorts of shapes in the shops and s you know some quite fancy ones than the some from personal experience which look nice but are not particularly comfortable any thoughts about buttons or flat screens or Marketing: Well from the mouse idea you could remote is a piece of plastic with the big rubber buttons sticking out of it which you press whereas if you want could all be flat and the buttons are very kind of almost subtle that instead of being raised out of the device you push into device you see like a mouse button Project Manager: Yes I mean the only thing is if if you are watching television in a in a a darkened room you need to be able to fi find the button buttons easily User Interface: But maybe they could be concave instead of sticking up to have them be kind of down so you could feel them",User Interface suggested that remote controls should be comfortable to hold and the buttons could be made concave so that customers could feel them. "Project Manager: first thoughts on the the industrial design side Industrial Designer: Oh I think it is it is remote controls are kind of a unique object because it is you depend on them so much but you do not i i it is you sort of just assume they are always going to work you do not think of them as a comp like a computer can break down and you are kind of like oh well fair enough there is all these complex things going on it is going to something is going to get messed up eventually They they just need to be very very dependable because people sort of take them for granted and then if your remote control breaks it is God forbid you actually get up and manually change the channel it just it needs to be very effective very always dependable I do not think we should make it too small I because I think it needs to it can not be too big like you were saying big an and huge and awkward but also if you make it too small kind of like you know how mobile phones are getting smaller and smaller it is just going to end up under a couch cushion somewhere and But so yes dependable and have a good medium range size Project Manager: and colours materials ? Kendra anyone ? User Interface: Well most I think most of the remote controls now are either just black or grey so maybe we should go with something different or be able to I was just thinking of what they are doing with mobile phones now how you can get the different what are they called ? Like the faceplates that you change so we could have maybe I do not know if it would be feasible to do something with that where you can change the faceplates or have kind of a variety so people can get different different things Have it kind of look how they want to different colours things like that probably just plastic because that is always the lightest Project Manager: that is Again I do not think that is ever been done before","The remote control should be made dependable and of medium size. In terms of industrial design, the user interface can be made into face-plates, and the material should be plastic as it is the lightest." "Project Manager: first thoughts on the the industrial design side Industrial Designer: Oh I think it is it is remote controls are kind of a unique object because it is you depend on them so much but you do not i i it is you sort of just assume they are always going to work you do not think of them as a comp like a computer can break down and you are kind of like oh well fair enough there is all these complex things going on it is going to something is going to get messed up eventually They they just need to be very very dependable because people sort of take them for granted and then if your remote control breaks it is God forbid you actually get up and manually change the channel it just it needs to be very effective very always dependable I do not think we should make it too small I because I think it needs to it can not be too big like you were saying big an and huge and awkward but also if you make it too small kind of like you know how mobile phones are getting smaller and smaller it is just going to end up under a couch cushion somewhere and But so yes dependable and have a good medium range size","Industrial Designer believed that remote controls should be made dependable and its size should be moderate since if it is too big, it can be awkward to hold, but if it is too small, it will be easy to get lost." "Project Manager: and colours materials ? Kendra anyone ? User Interface: Well most I think most of the remote controls now are either just black or grey so maybe we should go with something different or be able to I was just thinking of what they are doing with mobile phones now how you can get the different what are they called ? Like the faceplates that you change so we could have maybe I do not know if it would be feasible to do something with that where you can change the faceplates or have kind of a variety so people can get different different things Have it kind of look how they want to different colours things like that probably just plastic because that is always the lightest Project Manager: that is Again I do not think that is ever been done before","User Interface suggested that the remote control could be made of plastics because it was the lightest and proposed that they could make the remote control different, maybe with face-plates." "Project Manager: Good to see you all again Let us see if that comes up This is our functional design meeting Just a sec while my PowerPoint comes up Et voila Mm we put the fashion in electronics Let us start our agenda today just check the time it is twelve thirteen I am going to do an opening talk about did you all get the minutes ? I emailed them to you I am also putting them them in the shared folder So then I we will talk about our general objectives and have your three presentations I will talk about the new project requirements I have just received and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions Finally we will just close We are starting this meeting at approximately twelve thirteen and we have forty minutes So First of all the functional design objectives we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification what needs and desires are to be fulfilled the functions design what effects the apparatus should have and the working design how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function three presentations you can go in any order you choose Marketing: Mm shall we go in the order that you just did it ? I do not know How do I hook my screen up ? Industrial Designer: I think you might have to disconnect Rose User Interface: Well there is a wee a wee plug just just that one there Marketing: Where does it go ? Mmhmm I am not supposed to move this User Interface: Ah that is it yep And then you have to press function F eight I think it is on your laptop Marketing: Where is function ? No signal Project Manager: Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and Marketing: Ah wait s screw in Industrial Designer: I I think you just have to push it in really hard Project Manager: It is taking it a little bit Marketing: I have never attached to anything I do not know if you guys are able to get access to the report that was online or if I am the only one who is But I do not even know how to play this No Project Manager: Press the little presentation It is the it looks like a Y kind of over there above Draw There that one there you go Marketing: Alright So we are just going to talk a little bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked I guess Real Reaction did some market research They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched them watch TV and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had What they found was they analysed peoples desires and needs Focusing on their desires people specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they more importantly though eighty per cent said that they would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote I do not know anything beyond what fancy means but that is particularly of use to us I think also they did some questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition whereas the older people in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions people also had certain frustrations that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design That being people k frustrated with losing their remotes I think over fifty percent of the people mentioned that that was their biggest frustration People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before just that there is too many buttons it just needs to be easy to use It also mentioned something called RSI and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what RSI is because I do not know What ? Ah There we go Wow People do not like that So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing people do not like that the repetitive use I guess caused a strain looking at the needs people specified the problem right now is that peoples remotes are not matching their operating behaviour People are only using ten per cent of the buttons that they have offered to them on their remote And what people do most often is changing the channel and changing the volume People also zap like to change the channel about sixty five per cent during an hour of use So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings the screen settings and the channel settings because they are used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what is going on So I think that some things that we might want to think about the idea of an LCD screen was brought up although they did not have any details on what peoples preferences on that were so I do not know know if that is coming to me later or something like that But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we want to make easiest to use make sure that you know something like an audio setting is not given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that is used a lot more often And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like that it has a fancy appeal and that it is not ugly and that it feels like the way they are going to use it so it does not give them any hand injuries or things like that Project Manager: Thank you very much That was that was great s move on to the next presentation on effects Was that you ? Marketing: have I unscrewed it ? Project Manager: Push User interface right Interface Marketing: Mmhmm And I think that is in the shared if I did it right if anyone wants to look at it User Interface: Here we go Right so I am going to talk about the technical technical functions design of the remote control We need to start by considering what a remote control actually is It is a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television so i it is basically a communication device We we tell the remote control what we want to do it sends a message to the television saying change the channel change the volume adjust these settings adjust the brightness how do we actually go about designing a new television remote control ? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications We need to know what our final product is going to be like so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this product does how it works and what the enduser is going to want from this product Oh a way I would suggest that we could go about this is by designing several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product and then trying to get some feedback about h how well these particular prototypes work sorta find out what people think of them using a remote control is is quite a subjective experience and different different people sort of prefer different things we should remember that remote controls are a a fairly standard piece of equipment When a users using a remote control he or she expects the buttons to be in certain places So in some sense we are going to we are going to have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design so that we are not completely shocking people But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas and to make something that is that is perhaps a little bit different something that stands out also in in designing the user interface we need to consider practicalities the first of these is is technological ye what can we do with the current state of technology as it is The second is is economic we need to find a balance between features and price So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price but it would also i am improve the design of the product So I had a look on the on the web to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls In analysing these we can consider what what things what is good about them what things do they get right what is bad about them what is wrong with them how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out from from the large majority of remote controls Here is two examples probably at the extreme ends of the spectrum on the left here we have got an engineeringbased design for a remote control so it is one that is got lots of buttons it is it is fully featured everything you might possibly want to do is there you know it is got forward backwards up down channel numbers volume freeze frame it is it is fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it but once you have learned it you can you can do whatever you want with your TV The one on the right is a lot more basic It is just got the essential functions of the TV changing the channel play stop volume It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it but again th it is it is swings and roundabouts There are disadvantages you can not use it say to to freeze the television picture there is a lot of features that are missing from that remote control So we have got to to find our find a way of striking a balance between the two as I said before remote controls are subjective different people want want different things personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that is simple it it is easy to use it is got big buttons for doing the things I do most often changing the volume changing the channel It it does everything that I need it to as I said before I am quite lazy I do not want to walk across the room just to adjust my television I also want something that that looks cool and that that feels good that is ergonomically designed Project Manager: Mm kay Thank you very much That was very useful It is funny to see the drastic difference between those two remotes And neither of them were very pretty you know ? Industrial Designer: I think that could be our selling point User Interface: I think there is there is certainly a market for technology that looks cool And I think that is that is why companies like Appleve ve ve made a lot of progress Industrial Designer: Right I really can not see what I am doing so does anyone have a Ahha look at that showing up already Marketing: So wait did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see ? User Interface: that was just on the d on the company web site Marketing: Because I was like googling and then I am like wait it will not let me google Industrial Designer: Alright No how do I play again ? Project Manager: the it is right above Draw There are three thingy if it is way at the bottom Under three icons and it is the one that looks like a desk that one There are Ys Industrial Designer: So this is our working design presentation I had a bit of some issues with this because I was not able to find everything I needed but I guess that is we are still in early stages so this is this Though th the thing about working design is the what we are trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function one of the examples that kept coming up for me is that a coffee grinder It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out and then you get coffee at the end that is nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work Do not know if I am explaining that very well but how do I get to the next s ah So h the method as working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy is converted tsh towards this practical function And then I think the easiest thing to do is going to be work on each task separately So Project Manager: just click That will be fine Industrial Designer: So the findings that I got very just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to the receiver and in my opinion infrared is the best way to do that because you do not need a sight line So that is one thing we are going to work on the user interface is critical here because a lot of the things that happen in a remote control happen through the chip that controls that converts the electrical energy into data which then goes through the infrared so the the chip that I think Ian is designing is going to be crucial And really it all comes down to the to the user because they are the one that is controlling most of the working design So the components that we find here are the energy source you know the battery or whatever that is going to m make it work then the chip which converts the data the user that is controlling the chip and the infrared bulb that is going to let us move the data to the receiver So you have four main components and they are designed sort of like this You have your energy source right there which then brings energy or information to the chip which is also controlled by the users You have energy going to the user who is controlling the chip ooh s not what I wanted to do Project Manager: use that thing you can go back previous Industrial Designer: Previous Sorry about that guys No no no no no let us just get back to my schematic here Project Manager: Ye Double click on it With the right with the left hand one Industrial Designer: W I think it is frozen Here Do not show me that tip again There we are Sorry about this guys I am kind of pathetic with things like this alright So you have your energy source your user interface who is controlling the chip the chip also uses the energy and the chip through the use of the user interface is going to control the switch which will work your infrared bulb which will then bring the data to the receiver So hopefully that makes sense for everyone in my kind of garbled way This is the the parts of the working design that need to be figured out And personal preferences besides the fact that I can not spell we need a longlasting energy source people do not want to be changing it a lot We need a chip that works well with the user interface that is not too complicated We need a straightforward interface like Ian was saying simple not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infrared signal so that you are not waving your remote around and having to get frustrated and go do it by hands So that is pretty much it for the working design Rose do you think you can give me a hand with this ? Project Manager: Yes absolutely Ah I can never tell which way to turn these things Lefty loosey righty tighty right ? User Interface: I will think of that every time now Industrial Designer: It is going to stick in your head Marketing: that is a good one it will stick with you Project Manager: Mm kay I have nothing on my screen Just a sec Here we are requirements We have a couple new requirements that I was just emailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in in mind as we are creating this We did not bring it up yet or at all in the meetings so far but we are not going to work with teletext because well it that is been taken over by the internet so we are not going to worry about we are not going to worry about that Industrial Designer: it is a British thing User Interface: You do not have it in the States ? Project Manager: no W d could would you care to explain it ? User Interface: Oh I did not realise it is like a I suppose it is kind of similar to a very very basic web browser you have like you have numbers on your remote control y and you type in the page number you want so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it And you just type numbers to go to different pages and it gives you information mostly rather boring stuff like what is on TV next and share prices and that kind of thing Industrial Designer: S Lottery numbers and sport scores But if you ever see the TV saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now that is what they are talking about User Interface: It is earl it is pretty old technology It is like nineteen eighties Industrial Designer: I have no idea why we do not have it but Project Manager: Interesting well we are not going to the management has decided we are not going to work with that and we are also going to w like your question earlier whether this is going to be t for television video or etcetera Just for television That is what we are focused on otherwise becomes to complex we want to get this out very quickly We only have a a short amount of time and finally there is more marketing I think our corporate image has to be recognisable So while we are going to make it look pretty we need to use our colour and our slogan i in the new design User Interface: So what is our corporate image like ? It is It is kind of yellow colour with we put fashion in electronics Project Manager: Looks like kind of a yellow and black and we have that the emphasis on the Rs in User Interface: It is like double R Project Manager: But it is we put the fashion in electronics So we got to keep that in that in mind Industrial Designer: so we want something that looks good Project Manager: or ha maybe some buttons could be yellow Like we can we can play around with it a little bit we need to talk about our functions and our target group We need to decide who our target group is You in your analysis of different market of the marketing you identified that different groups wanted different things or had certain preferences for example that that older people did not really care for voice recognition but younger people did and so who are we aiming this at ? Industrial Designer: Well if we are going to say that function fashion we put the fashion in in electronics then you automatically I think a sort of younger group that that is who is going to be attracted to this Marketing: Yes I do think who is going to have the money to buy that also that one ? Project Manager: Mmhmm It is going to be twenty five Euro remember so it has to be avai marketable to whomever it is User Interface: Is it is it something that is going to be sold separately from the television or is it something that comes w with a television ? Because that would affect the way that we market it Project Manager: Well at least right now what we are doing is deciding on just the remote itself so it will probably be sold separately twenty five Euro by itself Marketing: The only breakdown that I was given in terms of age was the voice activation and basically there is a big jump after thirty five people do not really care if it has voice so it is like basically fifteen to thirty five that think that that is a good idea I do not know I am going to be given any other numbers broken down in terms of age later but if that is sort of the only quality that we have that is divided into age then we would want to stick between the fifteen and thirty five range Industrial Designer: that is probably a population w quite a little bit of disposable income for use on technology anyway so that might be a fairly good target group for us Project Manager: Now those are that is all specific for speech recognition Are we going to use that as one of our functions ? User Interface: I I would say no because it is going to add too much to the price Especially if we are marketing it as a separate product people are going to be paying well we have got a price limit of was it twelve twelve and a half Euros for to produce it ? And I wonder if we can get voice recognition into that twelve and a half Euros without having to make too many other compromises Marketing: But what else are we going to put I mean not that I am really gungho about it I do not know what else you can put in a remote to make it technologically advanced though So like other than just making it look good how is it I mean it can look really great and still have the same upndown buttons and why is anyone going to buy a new remote ? Industrial Designer: Well but why are we why are we aiming for a technological advancement ? Everything we are talking about is ease of use and simple and that does not necessarily mean more technology Project Manager: That is a good thing to keep in mind Industrial Designer: in fact it could use it could mean not If they might be overwhelmed with with remotes that have too many buttons and too much technology Marketing: If someone is looking to buy a new remote do not they want like an upgrade ? I do not know Project Manager: Upgrade ? Well we can look for we can look at upgrade or we can look at userfriendly Industrial Designer: They could have a crap remote that came with their TV that is just impossible to use or maybe it broke or maybe they are just missing it Project Manager: Uhhuh mm And we also need to talk about if we are only going to have the very simple ones or also have the other ones just separate somehow or","The first presentation was about users' functional requirements. Marketing mentioned that 80% of people like fancy appeal remote and younger people prefer voice recognition. The second presentation was about technical functions. User Interface suggested that as a communication tool, the remote should be practical and ergonomically designed. The third presentation was about working design. Industrial Designer introduced four main components, like a battery to make it work, the chip to convert the data, the user that's controlling the chip, and the infra-red bulb that moves the data to the receiver." "Marketing: people also had certain frustrations that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design That being people k frustrated with losing their remotes I think over fifty percent of the people mentioned that that was their biggest frustration People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before just that there is too many buttons it just needs to be easy to use It also mentioned something called RSI and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what RSI is because I do not know What ? Ah There we go Wow People do not like that So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing people do not like that the repetitive use I guess caused a strain looking at the needs people specified the problem right now is that peoples remotes are not matching their operating behaviour People are only using ten per cent of the buttons that they have offered to them on their remote And what people do most often is changing the channel and changing the volume People also zap like to change the channel about sixty five per cent during an hour of use So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings the screen settings and the channel settings because they are used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what is going on So I think that some things that we might want to think about the idea of an LCD screen was brought up although they did not have any details on what peoples preferences on that were so I do not know know if that is coming to me later or something like that But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we want to make easiest to use make sure that you know something like an audio setting is not given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that is used a lot more often And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like that it has a fancy appeal and that it is not ugly and that it feels like the way they are going to use it so it does not give them any hand injuries or things like that Project Manager: Thank you very much That was that was great",Marketing was asking what RSI was when mentioning the user needs to be easy to use. User Interface answered that it was repetitive strain injury. So Marketing denied this function because it did not match people's operating behaviour and users wanted a remote control with fewer buttons which would be easy to learn. Just like the audio setting was not given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often. "User Interface: so it is one that is got lots of buttons it is it is fully featured everything you might possibly want to do is there you know it is got forward backwards up down channel numbers volume freeze frame it is it is fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it but once you have learned it you can you can do whatever you want with your TV The one on the right is a lot more basic It is just got the essential functions of the TV changing the channel play stop volume It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it but again th it is it is swings and roundabouts There are disadvantages you can not use it say to to freeze the television picture there is a lot of features that are missing from that remote control So we have got to to find our find a way of striking a balance between the two as I said before remote controls are subjective different people want want different things personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that is simple it it is easy to use it is got big buttons for doing the things I do most often changing the volume changing the channel It it does everything that I need it to as I said before I am quite lazy I do not want to walk across the room just to adjust my television I also want something that that looks cool and that that feels good that is ergonomically designed Project Manager: Mm kay Thank you very much That was very useful It is funny to see the drastic difference between those two remotes And neither of them were very pretty you know ? Industrial Designer: I think that could be our selling point User Interface: I think there is there is certainly a market for technology that looks cool And I think that is that is why companies like Appleve ve ve made a lot of progress","When Industrial Designer demonstrated two different remote controls, Project Manager thought neither of them was pretty. Mentioning about the cool look about the functional design, Industrial Designer suggested taking consideration of the cool appeal into the selling point of fashion remote because there was a market for cool looking technology and ergonomic design." "Marketing: Can you like I mean this may be too complicated but I wish I had something to explain it like if it was just a simple either this way or this way that had like the main buttons and then you could like pull something out kind of and like you got the rest the buttons but the rest of them like went in Do you know what I am saying ? Project Manager: Kind of pull out of the side User Interface: There are remote controls like that Like some TVs they have a sort of a sliding screen on the remote control of it that hides all the complicated buttons So if you want to do something complicated like programme your television or retune it then you you open up this little hatch or or slide the screen down and there is all the all the special buttons Marketing: Because then s like people who do not want to ever look at them never even have to see them and if you like get the instruction manual that comes with it and you just do not even read it then you will never even know that those things can pull out And you are a happy person and everyone else does not have to have like two remotes one that has the easy ones and one that has Industrial Designer: that is a good idea User Interface: I think that is a good idea Marketing: but s all still in one Project Manager: we have to be careful that that that does not impede the chip transmitting information but that is going to be mostly technological thing so what are we emphasising ? I what in this project ? those are very good goals I think that we have to keep in mind in with everything we do Simplicity and fashion and or usability speci however you want to say that which includes an emphasis on making the infrared very functional so that you do not have to travel around a lot Marketing: What can you do to like make the infrared more functional like why would it not be ? I am just wondering Project Manager: I think it is a lot to do with battery but that is just my Industrial Designer: The battery and that I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well without sort of scattering Marketing: So s just the quality of the chip Industrial Designer: The quality quality of all the components really I mean we can not really do anything shoddy work because it is going to be visible down the line Project Manager: So our target group we are saying fifteen to thirty five ? Marketing: Well I do not know how useful that number is if we are not doing Project Manager: S voice recognition which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control like it might be necessary for a TV but not for the remote c you know User Interface: It is it is pretty it is pretty hightech Project Manager: Seems a little bit Mmhmm and it might be too expensive Marketing: And if the whole idea is you are using a remote then why would you have voice like you know what I mean and then it is like you would not need a remote you would just talk to your TV User Interface: It is for like the ultimately lazy people who can not even be bothered to pick up the remote Marketing: Maybe I mean if I get m more numbers I will email you before the next meeting in terms of ages But this does not divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also which is not I mean really is not that representative especially if it is a hundred subjects that th they then can subdivide into age groups that means there is very few in each age group so Industrial Designer: but I th I think regardless we are we are aiming for the under sixty five or something Project Manager: that is a good start I would say we are can we narrow it down to maybe teenagers and families ? Because that would go up to like fifty ? Industrial Designer: Or like single professionals or something Marketing: Twenty to like fifty five Project Manager: It is it is hard to narrow it down Industrial Designer: It is really hard to figure out right now User Interface: I think the product appeals across a quite a broad range of ages I mean we we said simplicity is is one of the features so it is going to appeal to people maybe people who have problems with technology you know people who get scared by having lots of buttons and that might be older people but then we have also got fashion which is something that definitely appeals to younger people Marketing: Well maybe we do not have to defi define the target group by the demographic of age maybe we can define it by like the demographic of like h t how much money they have to spend or something like that User Interface: aim for a an income group Industrial Designer: That is a good point Marketing: obviously it has to be someone who owns a television and like how recently have they bought their television like that sort of thing Project Manager: So maybe it is more useful to d d to define objectives like fashion and simplicity than to find specific target group as far as age is because things so different will appeal to different people but oh there are a couple functions do we want something so that do we want some kind of thing to find it if it is lost ? Like a button on a TV you can press and it will ring or something I do not know like or beep ? Marketing: H I mean like I said before fifty per cent of of the fru f like frustration someone can have that was the biggest one and half the people said that happened and we all mentioned it before we knew about it And if we are talking about making something easy that sort of goes along with it so it would not be like a random thing to sort of add in It would be relevant to like the overall goal I think Industrial Designer: that will probably be good Project Manager: we have to we have about four minutes left to define our functions So let us do that quickly so we want something to keep it from getting lost And we want we want large buttons for the essential things Large accessible buttons for the essentials We want a possibility to to get a possibility to get the extra functions User Interface: Which are kind of hidden away in some way or well not hidden but they are they are not as prominent as the main features Project Manager: hidden way And we also want it to be fashionable which I am not sure if that is a function so much as a Marketing: on your coffee table it is not like an eye sore that kind of thing Project Manager: do it Any other essential functions that we need ? Battery ? Do we need a longlife battery ? Industrial Designer: Battery battery use but I think that goes in with simplicity and ease of use really Project Manager: But we might as well Marketing: So you never have to change the battery User Interface: We should maybe investigate whether it needs a battery at all I suspect the remote control does need a battery but I do not know if you can Project Manager: Just because it is an electronic device the Industrial Designer: It I think it does I do not I do not think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone or like a little cradle for your iPod User Interface: that is that is possible Industrial Designer: You could we could maybe do that instead So you do not ha you got like a rechargeable battery I do not know that might contribute to less people losing it too if it it stays in one place Project Manager: We have to think about space in livingrooms too like because they are I mean would you put it on top of the TV ? I do not know just think that is that is a good idea we will keep it Think it is Industrial Designer: That is just off the top of my head Project Manager: And maybe fun kay we are going to conclude now has everyone said their functions and kay after the meeting we are going to each complete a sks a questionnaire and a summaries summary I do not know what summarisation and then we will have our lunch break After that we have thirty minutes of individual work I will make sure to put up the minutes and the project documentation and including these PowerPoint slides If everyone could do that as well that would be great you each have individual actions I ID Industrial Design you have your components concept User Interface the user interface concept market trend wa watching And as as per last time you will get specific incrat instructions from your personal coach emailed to you And hopefully I hope next time you will be able to access more of the web site that they they seem to tell you that you could It is kind of frustrating but Be sure to note any frustrations or any issues that come up in your in your summary Marketing: Did you were you able to like put yours in the group folder ? Industrial Designer: Yes I just did that Hopefully it is there for people Project Manager: Looks like there are looks like there is a second one kind of of mine that is that I did not do it is from like an earlier project I think so Marketing: Where is that ? Yours is Project Manager: Under the shared folder I do not know it might not even be under yours as well Industrial Designer: in there we have technical functions presentation working design presentation and the functional requirements At least that is what I have in Marketing: I only have three I just have like our three Industrial Designer: that is what I have as well R Rose Project Manager: You do not have mine ? Marketing: No but that is because I think yours is in the email separate like it is not on the server But if I open it and then save it probably will be there Oh wait never mind you can not save it to the Project Manager: Well I will figure that out in the meantime","The group agreed to target 15 to 25 year olds. They decided to make the remote look simple, but have the key buttons to make it easy to use. Also, groupmates agreed to use one menu button and they would include voice recognition as one option." "Project Manager: those are very good goals I think that we have to keep in mind in with everything we do Simplicity and fashion and or usability speci however you want to say that which includes an emphasis on making the infrared very functional so that you do not have to travel around a lot Marketing: What can you do to like make the infrared more functional like why would it not be ? I am just wondering Project Manager: I think it is a lot to do with battery but that is just my Industrial Designer: The battery and that I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well without sort of scattering Marketing: So s just the quality of the chip Industrial Designer: The quality quality of all the components really I mean we can not really do anything shoddy work because it is going to be visible down the line Project Manager: So our target group we are saying fifteen to thirty five ? Marketing: Well I do not know how useful that number is if we are not doing Project Manager: S voice recognition which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control like it might be necessary for a TV but not for the remote c you know User Interface: It is it is pretty it is pretty hightech Project Manager: Seems a little bit Mmhmm and it might be too expensive Marketing: And if the whole idea is you are using a remote then why would you have voice like you know what I mean and then it is like you would not need a remote you would just talk to your TV User Interface: It is for like the ultimately lazy people who can not even be bothered to pick up the remote Marketing: Maybe I mean if I get m more numbers I will email you before the next meeting in terms of ages But this does not divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also",Project Manager mentioned that they should emphasize on making the infra-red more functional. Industrial Designer thought the chip took the data and presented it without sort of scattering and the quality of all the components really mattered. Then Project Manager mentioned the target group and voice recognition was not necessary. Group mates agreed on it and mentioned that it was high-tech and expensive. "Project Manager: do it Any other essential functions that we need ? Battery ? Do we need a longlife battery ? Industrial Designer: Battery battery use but I think that goes in with simplicity and ease of use really Project Manager: But we might as well Marketing: So you never have to change the battery User Interface: We should maybe investigate whether it needs a battery at all I suspect the remote control does need a battery but I do not know if you can Project Manager: Just because it is an electronic device the Industrial Designer: It I think it does I do not I do not think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone or like a little cradle for your iPod User Interface: that is that is possible Industrial Designer: You could we could maybe do that instead So you do not ha you got like a rechargeable battery I do not know that might contribute to less people losing it too if it it stays in one place Project Manager: We have to think about space in livingrooms too like because they are I mean would you put it on top of the TV ? I do not know just think that is that is a good idea we will keep it Think it is Industrial Designer: That is just off the top of my head",Industrial Designer suggested a rechargeable station like a cradle for the iPod when discussing the battery for essential functions because it might contribute to fewer people losing it too if it stayed in one place. Project Manager agreed and suggested thinking about the space in the living room as well when designing this feature. "Project Manager: Nice But so mm does everybody has experiences with remote controls and I mean not the ordinary mote controls but also a little bit different ones ? Like you can use for other ? Marketing: Well we have a kind of broad TV at home and a DVD player so we got like a lot of remote controls one for the TV one for the video recorder one for the DVD player And I think it is it would be best to just make one remote control that can operate them all Project Manager: I have I have got one at home And you can program I think eight different devices in it and you can use it for your television anything else And it also operates on infrared so you have to got the little device inside your room and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor So that is pretty handy when you have a video recorder or DVD player downstairs and you have got a link to your TV on the second floor So that is a pretty handy thing but only the I think that if you can put different kind of devices in one remote control it makes it a lot easier as well It is That is good to remember Marketing: So I think you can take minutes again Project Manager: that is nice I think Marketing: Since it is your job Project Manager: So we have we want different functions and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infrared But I do not know if that will exceed the production costs So that that is something we have to find out I think Marketing: But that would be really good if we could do that","Project Manager proposed that apart from ordinary remote controls, innovative use cases could be explored. Then Marketing suggested that a multipurpose remote control should be made to operate different devices including TV, video recorder, DVD player, etc." "Project Manager: I have I have got one at home And you can program I think eight different devices in it and you can use it for your television anything else And it also operates on infrared so you have to got the little device inside your room and then you can operate it from the third or th or second floor So that is pretty handy when you have a video recorder or DVD player downstairs and you have got a link to your TV on the second floor So that is a pretty handy thing but only the I think that if you can put different kind of devices in one remote control it makes it a lot easier as well It is That is good to remember Marketing: So I think you can take minutes again Project Manager: that is nice I think Marketing: Since it is your job Project Manager: So we have we want different functions","Project Manager confirmed the feasibility of Marketing's idea of the multipurpose remote control, and later he also brought up infra-red as an effective medium, over which cost-related doubt was expressed by himself, though." "Project Manager: and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infrared But I do not know if that will exceed the production costs So that that is something we have to find out I think Marketing: But that would be really good if we could do that Project Manager: And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it Marketing: Think it has to be shock proof my remote control tends to fall a lot Project Manager: Waterproof So these are our a few things we can think of I will put the minutes from this meeting in our project folder Marketing: one other little thing Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it how much is left in the battery But they will also really drag up the production costs so think we will have to see about that too But maybe just a little LED I do not know Project Manager: That is an idea as well Other ideas ? Quick ideas","Infra-red was mentioned by Project Manager along with the multipurpose function. Marketing proposed shock proof. User Interface put forward waterproof. And then Marketing went on to offer battery status display as an optional choice, which he had no idea was a great production cost driver or just a tiny LED." "Project Manager: and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infrared But I do not know if that will exceed the production costs So that that is something we have to find out I think Marketing: But that would be really good if we could do that Project Manager: And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it Marketing: Think it has to be shock proof my remote control tends to fall a lot Project Manager: Waterproof So these are our a few things we can think of I will put the minutes from this meeting in our project folder Marketing: one other little thing Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it how much is left in the battery But they will also really drag up the production costs so think we will have to see about that too But maybe just a little LED I do not know","When Project Manager proposed the application of infra-red, he himself admitted the risk of exceeding target cost. The same concern over battery status display was expressed by Marketing. Hence, he agreed to find out a specific cost before decision-making, with Marketing implying that he wanted it to be applied if possible." Marketing: one other little thing Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it how much is left in the battery But they will also really drag up the production costs so think we will have to see about that too But maybe just a little LED I do not know,"When Marketing mentioned the application battery status display, he added that it could possibly drag up the production cost and that further research would be carried out before decision-making. But still, he implied that he wanted it to be applied if possible." Project Manager: as you can see we for our remote control a selling price is twenty five Euros Our selling price our profit aim is fifty million Euros that is the least we have to get from our remote controls so we have to work together to reach our aims we can do it international so we have to focus on different kind of users different kind of cultures and different kind of trends as well but that is all in the later stadium Our production cost can be maximal twelve and a half Euros so that is also a point we have to keep in mind that we will not make remote controls with small televisions inside and stuff like that It will not work So just try to remember these points Selling price twenty five profit aims fifty million but more important is the int international market we are trying to focus on And production cost maximal twelve and a half Euros So that is leads us to our little discussion We have got about five or ten minutes left for discussion So I am going to sit down I think It is easier I have got a message Five minutes,"Project Manager announced that the remote control would be priced at 25 Euros, produced at a maximum cost of 12.5 Euros to achieve a profit aim of 50 million euros. And Project Manager went on to emphasize that the target market would be international, covering different kinds of users, cultures, and trends. No dissent was raised by other team members." "Project Manager: first of all I will start with the costs because that is going to influence our design If you Do not know if you al already had a look or not ? User Interface: No n I I already did it Industrial Designer: Did you do your questionnaire already ? User Interface: It is not much It is just one question Project Manager: Because we have a problem If you look closely you can see I already took the liberty to make some suggestions At the moment we have fifteen buttons one LCD screen one advanced chiponprint We use a sensor that is for the speech we use kinetic energy And we wanted the buttons in a special colour What is the first thing we should drop ? The special colour of the buttons ? User Interface: No that is that is for the trendy feel and look So Project Manager: Should we switch to a hand dynamo ? that is the still the same idea as the kinetic energy because you have to use it and do things Marketing: but young people like that So just do normal battery User Interface: I think the battery option Industrial Designer: Just a normal battery then Marketing: It has to be twelve and a half Project Manager: You are going to redesign something so we are at twenty five Do we keep the shape doubly curved or g do we go for single curved ? Industrial Designer: Well I guess i we will have to go for single curve then I mean we have to drop on everything Marketing: But we can keep it single curved with top view still curved but from the side it is it is flat and the screen screen is just Well you just have to hold it like this then So Project Manager: another option I saw was to drop the buttons one through nine so you can not directly access a channel but instead use only the up and down arrows That would skip nine buttons and four and a half Euros Industrial Designer: That is what I was thinking Marketing: Let us do it then User Interface: But we do not have any basic options any more Industrial Designer: And because then they do not have to n They do not need special colour as well Project Manager: They do not need special colours Fine That is more like it Industrial Designer: That was exactly my point Like let us drop all the buttons and just make one I mean we are going to use the LCD screen anyway So we will just have to use it for everything And then you can make an overview of channels in the screen and select a channel click Project Manager: some more menu options so maybe we can drop few more buttons But Now let us look User Interface: we c could We only need the the the the the menu arrow arrow button thing Everything you can do with with the menu So With the display Industrial Designer: we need one integrated button for everything then Kind of I was Because If you if you go to If you go to our view like you if you are in the sound system there and you want to adjust the treble for instance this is just an example y y you want to see a bar on which you can adjust it from zero to ten for example But you want a sound preview of how it is going to sound right ? So you want to click on it activate it whe and when you move it hear the difference of the treble coming out or going into the sound So you will you will need a a kind of a joystick button Marketing: or or the integrated scrollwheel pushbutton So that is kind of on your mouse and then you can click it adjust it click again and then you are out of it But you still But you then still need to have Well you can use the scrollwheel as well for maybe for the channels But you still You still have to have some some button in the menu to go back User Interface: So you do one inte You can do one integrated scrollwheel pushbutton And then just drop all the other buttons But but th the cost of one integrated button is far more than a few extra pushbuttons Marketing: Not s not sound I guess Project Manager: It is One integrated button is five times the cost of a normal button User Interface: So we have to to make it s more It has to be Project Manager: You could also drop j three more of these without losing much functionality You just drop the and the Back Marketing: Wh wh what what what is the what is the sample sensor sample speaker ? Project Manager: Oh that is for the speech User Interface: Could drop the speech recognition Project Manager: S s Drop speech recognition ? Industrial Designer: it is it is expensive but we never considered the possibilities of speech recognition Because it can take the function of a lot of buttons Project Manager: That is not very easy to use Marketing: No it can be disturbed by by noise and Industrial Designer: but let us just say that the speech recognition works Marketing: stuff like that Let let let me see what is more what is more popular I guess the the screen was more popular than than the speech recognition I have to look on that Let me see well no I was wrong There are more people who like speech recognition than an LCD screen Project Manager: Yep Because if you d lose the LCD screen we need a lot of Marketing: But if it But it it it is a it is a both a hypers User Interface: We lose our whole concept Project Manager: We need a lot of extra buttons Marketing: Well we we keep the screen I mean it is it is about the same Eight one to ninety one percent sixty six to seventy six Industrial Designer: We we we have not really integrated this the speech into the system Project Manager: so we drop the speech Industrial Designer: so we can might as well s drop that Marketing: Let us drop the speech Project Manager: S Fo Four less Euros So we still have three and a half Euro to lose Industrial Designer: We need to lose some buttons Project Manager: if you lose the the Back the button v let us say we only have the four arrows and the Menu button Marketing: And then and then use Project Manager: Oh and the power button we have also Marketing: The the And the menu button does also does the function then And then when you in the menu Project Manager: So that is one Euro Marketing: S so so you activate the menu User Interface: If we do two integrated scrollwheel pushbuttons we can drop all the the pushbuttons With with one integrated button we can do the whole menu thing With the other we can do the the channel the volume et cetera Project Manager: That would save zero point two Euros compared to No User Interface: No it is three Euros No ? Project Manager: To This together is more expensive than Oof it is almost the same as t keeping this User Interface: No it is it is n Project Manager: And we can drop these two Marketing: For example if you have f f four buttons channel up and down volume left right I have I think we have to keep that And then and the power button So that is five That is basic That that is what you need anyway And then for the menu you can have a button that activates menu Or d or do we just integrate an an an scrollwheel with a pushbutton And then if the moment you use the scrollwheel the the the menu gets activated and then you can scroll choose an option click on it it goes into an feature Click on it again selects features scroll adjust it Click again it is Then you only need one button to move back Or or under each option you set a you set an a screen thing what says back and you select that one click again and you go one step back And in that menu scroll click one step back So that then you need five buttons and one integrated scrollwheel pushbutton But we can not drop three buttons But I see that is Project Manager: that is one Euro more expensive Marketing: So that is not a good idea Project Manager: That is not an option Marketing: Because which buttons do we have now ? Those five which I mentioned and then menu and then F of the four things ? Industrial Designer: if you if you go to eight I do not know how to Marketing: Power Th that is five Project Manager: We have a Back and a button Marketing: and one to activate the menu So that is eight Well we can not reduce that We we keep the display Project Manager: and even if we drop three buttons from here we still have to make some adjustments around here So Industrial Designer: we need the chip for the for the LC display User Interface: Let us make the Let us make the case plastic Marketing: well we need the advanced Project Manager: Then I rather make it wood Because then also it is good in the market with the forty five plus people Marketing: but but that is not our market Project Manager: No that maybe not But maybe it is better than plastic anyway User Interface: Plastic with a with a special colour A woo wood wood wood colour Marketing: Because we have to use the special colour anyway You forgot that User Interface: So we do one one s Marketing: So let us go for the plastic And since it is not kinetic it does not have to flip around that much ? Project Manager: that is easy because plastic is free Marketing: We still have problem of two Euros User Interface: No the buttons those are really needed th th it is it is Marketing: we can not drop them Do we really need that advanced chip for an LCD display ? Industrial Designer: You So the other option would be to go for the the sample speaker and Which can use a regular chip wh which is six Euros in total Marketing: Oh I rather keep I rather keep the display Project Manager: No I keep the re Because we already designed for it So Marketing: So the only option is an hand dynamo Oh no tha Oh that is one Euro right Industrial Designer: can not we f fit all the buttons in an intreg integrated scroll pushbutton ? Because that will save us one and a half Euro already And then if w Marketing: And then integrated s but that would make it not so easy to use Project Manager: No y you would rec Marketing: I mean it is not that important easy to use but Industrial Designer: Th then we have to scroll through a lot of menus to be able to get where you want huh ? Project Manager: Then you still need two additional buttons I believe Industrial Designer: d at l At least one for power Project Manager: Oh and power That is three buttons and this would cost Industrial Designer: Oh it is just as expensive as what we have now User Interface: But the integrated button ? How many func functions can it have ? Industrial Designer: endlessly I mean it can be a power button as soon as it powered on You can go into you in you main menu Marketing: You you press it for like three seconds Industrial Designer: you can choose flip channel you can choose sound options any options Marketing: Then then then you should do everything in the menu On the screen Industrial Designer: Maybe we should Because we do not have money and w we want the screen Project Manager: you can choose this drop these then we have a half Euro left So we can maybe still use power button Industrial Designer: I guess we have to Marketing: It s it saves us four Euros and it costs us two and a half So let us see we we drop the price by one and a half Industrial Designer: We will we will be on Marketing: But we still have thirteen left Project Manager: Oh still ? Oh then I miscalculated Oh Shit Drop the special colour Marketing: There goes the special co Well That would make it less appealing So that is no option Project Manager: Kay What else ? Uncurved ? User Interface: No no it has to be curved Marketing: We sure about the advanced chip we need for the display ? Project Manager: They made it very easy for us Marketing: Well We made it hard for ourselves with the display but it is a cool feature Project Manager: Ah I do not think I can s persuade the management to say this is better for the market so you sell more than User Interface: Wh what we could do is drop the the special colour and do the special colour for the buttons Project Manager: Buttons That is Oh since we only have one button Marketing: but I mean what is meant by special colour ? Project Manager: I just m I do not I think User Interface: Just something else than than black or white I think Project Manager: it is I think it is grey regular Industrial Designer: But we definitely want the thing to be a special colour though Marketing: So I rather have an hand dynamo than than drop the colour You can still play with it then I guess I do not know but a hand dynamo costs a lot of energy to keep the screen working So I guess that is not an option Industrial Designer: Well you only have to power it up when you want to use it User Interface: The But if you have to power the for ten minutes then the Project Manager: No I do not think the current status of chips are pretty energy conserving no Marketing: Let us let us go for the hand dynamo then Project Manager: hand dynamo ? Do you want an extra button ? Marketing: Or or do we Or do we do uncurved and flat ? Instead of User Interface: No no it has to be curved Marketing: it has to be curved and has to have that colour User Interface: Just put a special special colour of the buttons or something Industrial Designer: That is the most import Project Manager: Yep ? Instead of an additional power button ? User Interface: or spe special form ? Marketing: S what what is special f Oh special form But we do not have any buttons User Interface: But it is it is for the integrated button I think also Or Marketing: d make it a special colour then ma make it a special colour then Project Manager: but it is just a scrollwheel which you can push down So Marketing: Make it a special colour and then it look fancy Project Manager: Woah we are within budget Marketing: Let us let us save it User Interface: oh ma make it two special colours but we only have one button Marketing: Let us do it like this I mean because it does not lose our identity of the product as we Project Manager: ? well Kay this was old Industrial Designer: Well we come back to the drawing board then huh ? Marketing: all your designs are pretty much Project Manager: Did I save it ? Industrial Designer: It is silly because we we should have had this meeting before we start drawing Marketing: but that but that is the fun part of it Project Manager: I I wanted to go but I was not allowed So I just forgot to save this Just a minute","According to the Project Manager, the group had gone far beyond the budget, so they had to cut down something on the current conceptual remote design. The first idea they came up with was to reduce the number of the buttons. The Industrial Design proposed to use an integrating button to replace the scattered ones, but inevitably, this also had some defects. The User Interface focused on the material and he put forward to choose a cheaper material like wood or plastics. Paying attention to the energy consumption, the Marketing suggested using a hand dynamo to save the cost of batteries." "Industrial Designer: we need one integrated button for everything then Kind of I was Because If you if you go to If you go to our view like you if you are in the sound system there and you want to adjust the treble for instance this is just an example y y you want to see a bar on which you can adjust it from zero to ten for example But you want a sound preview of how it is going to sound right ? So you want to click on it activate it whe and when you move it hear the difference of the treble coming out or going into the sound So you will you will need a a kind of a joystick button Marketing: or or the integrated scrollwheel pushbutton So that is kind of on your mouse and then you can click it adjust it click again and then you are out of it But you still But you then still need to have Well you can use the scrollwheel as well for maybe for the channels But you still You still have to have some some button in the menu to go back User Interface: So you do one inte You can do one integrated scrollwheel pushbutton And then just drop all the other buttons But but th the cost of one integrated button is far more than a few extra pushbuttons Marketing: Not s not sound I guess Project Manager: It is One integrated button is five times the cost of a normal button User Interface: So we have to to make it s more It has to be Project Manager: You could also drop j three more of these without losing much functionality You just drop the and the Back","When discussing how to control their budget, the Industrial Design put forward to use an integrating joystick or a scroll-wheel push-button like the mouse to reduce the number of the buttons on the remote control. It did sound great for that it allowed users to function the remote control by manipulating only one button as well as saved the cost for the group. However, according to the User Interface, actually it could cost even five times to design and produce an integrating button than just produce several scattered buttons, so this might not be a feasible suggestion." "User Interface: Let us make the Let us make the case plastic Marketing: well we need the advanced Project Manager: Then I rather make it wood Because then also it is good in the market with the forty five plus people Marketing: but but that is not our market Project Manager: No that maybe not But maybe it is better than plastic anyway User Interface: Plastic with a with a special colour A woo wood wood wood colour Marketing: Because we have to use the special colour anyway You forgot that User Interface: So we do one one s Marketing: So let us go for the plastic And since it is not kinetic it does not have to flip around that much ? Project Manager: that is easy because plastic is free","The User Interface suggested to use plastics as the material in order to reduce the cost. However, the Project Manager would like to use wood for fear that the color would not be bright enough. Fortunately, according to the User Interface, there were actually hard plastics with attractive color, that was also why he insisted on the plastics as the material." "Marketing: what is the next phase ? Project Manager: this the last phase of course so Marketing: the agenda By your humble PM Project Manager: Well we first should have had a prototype presentation But well as you saw that had not made no sense because we had to drop it Industrial Designer: We went straight into finance ? Project Manager: it was more important so I just evaluation criteria You have t produced something about that ? Marketing: that that is I I sure did And it combines with product evaluation so Project Manager: you put it in the Marketing: We all have to keep in mind what has changed now So what we have left on the Because evaluation is based on the initial user requirements Let us make it big Well we evaluate the design with a seven point scale as following Well the remote controls according criteria blah blah blah True or false and then on a scale of seven points a scale as we all know it Well the criteria are based on the user requirements the trends from the marketing research and the marketing strategy of the company itself well they are in a Word document which I will open now I do not know it is open yet No And we all have to agree on a certain level What is this ? Oh I do not know Well the first point is the remote control matches the operating behaviour of the young user So that means the operating behaviour was using quite a lot of functions How do you think about that ? Industrial Designer: I think it does Because the operating behaviour of the young user was also defined in colour and shape and the use of LCD Project Manager: of course we dropped a little bit of those Marketing: the us you It it it is it is mainly con mainly concentrating on a lot of functions in this question Industrial Designer: Well we have extended menus on the on the LCD screen So Marketing: You can you can ma you can make a lot of extended menus That is true I mean the the possibilities are almost unlimited to to build in menus in the screen So on a scale from one to seven what do you think ? User Interface: Two or three Two or three Marketing: Huh ? Two or three ? Something like that ? Well we have to choose one So what do you say ? Project Manager: y we should fill this in now Marketing: I I say two personally But Project Manager: in the new design I s would say it is three But now in original design I say two Marketing: well we have to evaluate I guess what we have now and you you said al also three ? Three ? well I say still two but it has to be three then Project Manager: Hey you are marketing eh Marketing: I know So it is made bold But it is nah it is not very clear on the sc User Interface: Or give it a colour Marketing: Maybe other colour That is better Alright Oh it does not have to be bold anymore well the remote control has Wha Industrial Designer: Definitely one It has to be Marketing: The remote control has irrelevant or less used functions For example audio settings and screen settings Project Manager: Everything You do not use anything else Marketing: Well So it it is a very true point I mean it hides all those function Industrial Designer: You are not going to find them Marketing: But I mean they are hidden in the screen If you do not want to use them you do not s you s just scroll over them And you place them F I do not know where So that is very true I guess for our case Industrial Designer: the next Not so much so Marketing: the second point It shows the relevant and most used functions Power button Do we ha still have a power button ? Project Manager: check with the Excel sheet Marketing: Well the buttons integrated huh ? Industrial Designer: it is it is integrated Marketing: we dropped it You j you just push it in for User Interface: It is in Oh it was integrateds Marketing: just just push it in for th for three seconds or something and then Industrial Designer: E exactly just like a m mobile Project Manager: Just go scrolling and it will activate Marketing: it shows the relevant and most used functions on the other on one side I would say yes and the other side I would say no So it is I do not know Project Manager: It shows the most used functions and they are relevant but User Interface: Can you change channels directly with with just one button ? No you have to scroll through the menu before Marketing: With the scroll butt and then say channel And then User Interface: So it is it is not Industrial Designer: Well we should b build it so that if you do not kind of push into the menu or something if When it is on it is turned on Project Manager: You say you double click on the Industrial Designer: It automatically has the the programme and the volume function but as soon as you click it you go into the menu or some Of you Or you double click it Marketing: But but how do you change from volume to channel ? Industrial Designer: No because it has four arrows right ? Project Manager: Because he is now have a scrollwheel that you can push in Like on the the mouse Industrial Designer: I was thinking still about our integrated joystick Marketing: No we have n we have no buttons left So the joystick was not an option So you you have to doubleclick I mean for I mean volume and three double click for the menu or something Project Manager: Or hold it ten seconds Industrial Designer: We will make it a Morse code Marketing: But but ease of use was not very important may I remind you Project Manager: No no no it should be trendy Marketing: but that that is not a question the remote control shows the relevant and most used functions Well I think it is pretty much in the middle You have to search for them in in the in the s in the screen in the menu So Project Manager: i am in the menu Marketing: So maybe it is more like a f a five Or Industrial Designer: I would go for five or six Let us not diss our remote Project Manager: It is the weirdest remote control I have ever seen So Marketing: Alright the the remote control makes use of technolog technological innovation like LCD screen and speech recognition Well but we dropped the speech recognition But it has at least one innovation Project Manager: it is still I say two Industrial Designer: We still have the fruit and vegetable print Project Manager: Oh that is the next Marketing: but that that is not that is not this question thi that is the other question Industrial Designer: Fr Oh I mean the Oh never mind I am a bit lost User Interface: I think a two No Marketing: I think LCDs more useful than speech What ? Oh not the bold one Industrial Designer: It is way more practical Marketing: Right it has a fancy look and feel by using fruit and vegetable prints primary colours and spongelike material It should have been two questions I realise now because spongelike material is dropped But the look and feel Project Manager: You still have rubber d Or no Industrial Designer: So we still we still have the primary colours But only on the on the outside not on the button User Interface: No you got a plastic Marketing: The button has also colour Project Manager: The one button we have Industrial Designer: still we we dropped also on the the double curve Project Manager: you could check with the Excel sheet Marketing: we have single curve now and no and no material So maybe in the middle or something Industrial Designer: Actually we d we did not do so well on this one Because it is basically an old one with little curve on the side and in a different colour Still it is still hard I mean the spongelike and the three D shape that would give it something young and fresh Marketing: But then we would have to drop the screen the remote control displays the corporate logo You just have to draw it User Interface: It is the white part Industrial Designer: but it be because we could not hardly draw on the b s on the lower half of the screen we could not make it big enough to actually draw in the User Interface: We have a we have a Industrial Designer: So I mean I wanted to put digits on the buttons as well But Marketing: But there is enough space for the corporate logo I mean if there is only one thing Industrial Designer: Hell If we have only one button Marketing: So I will say that is very true Industrial Designer: And even the shape we have now simulates kind of an R and the reversed R Marketing: The remote control is easy to use Well I would say Skill I would say six or something I do not think it is easy to use or not so Industrial Designer: The only e the only thing easy about it is that you do not have to move your fingers Because it has only one button User Interface: And that you only have to control one button Marketing: It it it has a nice screen But User Interface: It gives visual feedback So Marketing: Well I I would say a five or a six User Interface: I think a five Five Marketing: What do you say ? Easy to use ? Five or a six ? Industrial Designer: It is really not easy to use Because you are putting everything Marketing: I would go for the six too So the remote control is durable I do not know if that is the correct word Industrial Designer: Definitely in casing because we have a hard plastic Marketing: But In use both battery as casing ? Industrial Designer: because the the batteries those thingies last forever And the the casing hard plastic also lasts forever Marketing: And the casing is plastic ? If you do not drop it too much it is should last pretty long Industrial Designer: So I would go for one Marketing: ? But I think rubber compared is better So I think a two is more appropriate I will go go for two the last one ? The remote controls a good example for companys motto we put the fashion in electronics User Interface: No we put the electronics into the fashion Industrial Designer: I would go for four Because we kind of tried to but we kind of failed with the budget that we have Marketing: So a four It is it g it g goes it is not the best we could do I guess But it all has to do with the budget because it is it is not the bad idea we had so So if I understood it right we have to count these numbers Project Manager: Ooh And ? What ? Marketing: Oh Alright Word document the we have to count them Project Manager: Count them Add them ? Or Marketing: just add them and then divide them Project Manager: Could somebody start calculator ? Industrial Designer: Ah we can do the math Marketing: I all made it po I I all made it I all made it possible for a positive questions so we can count it I mean if you have reversed question you have to reverse the scale Industrial Designer: Did you make this questionnaire or what ? I would not be able to do it that fast User Interface: Oh Wait a second Oh It is it is gone wrong Marketing: How hard is it ? User Interface: No it is if you press twice on the plus button then you get s s Marketing: Oh there though there is no n There is no num pads User Interface: No That is why it is Marketing: It is a it is a bit Industrial Designer: Just type in the digits They are all one digit numbers right ? And then you can count them together Marketing: I think you can just count them by a Three plus one four Nine No sixteen sixteen plus six Industrial Designer: How hard is this ? Marketing: Twenty two Twenty two ? Industrial Designer: Never mind Twenty four Twenty eight Project Manager: That was the last one That was that Marketing: That is three Or le less than a three Industrial Designer: the lower the The lower the score the better right ? Marketing: makes three point one one one one one one one Project Manager: So we are better than average","As to have a clear idea about what they had already got, the Project Manager proposed to evaluate finished work first. Then through the review, they found the problem that the joystick might not function as well as they thought before. In addition, in order to keep it innovative, the group decided to add some unique things like fruit logos or make it in a three-D shape. According to the User Interface, they should put the electronics into fashions so the material also needed some discussion. Plastics and rubber were both fine to them for that they were not easy to be destroyed and favored by most youths. After all the discussions, the Marketing offered a questionnaire for them to check whether they made the right decisions." "Marketing: Well but we dropped the speech recognition But it has at least one innovation Project Manager: it is still I say two Industrial Designer: We still have the fruit and vegetable print Project Manager: Oh that is the next Marketing: but that that is not that is not this question thi that is the other question Industrial Designer: Fr Oh I mean the Oh never mind I am a bit lost User Interface: I think a two No Marketing: I think LCDs more useful than speech What ? Oh not the bold one Industrial Designer: It is way more practical Marketing: Right it has a fancy look and feel by using fruit and vegetable prints primary colours and spongelike material It should have been two questions I realise now because spongelike material is dropped But the look and feel Project Manager: You still have rubber d Or no Industrial Designer: So we still we still have the primary colours But only on the on the outside not on the button User Interface: No you got a plastic Marketing: The button has also colour","When the group was talking about the material and function issue, the Marketing laid stress on the innovation for that they already had to drop several advanced techniques to meet the budget limitation and it was necessary for them to find something unique.He pointed out that they could take the advantage of the fruit and vegetable logos on the remote control, as well as the primary colors of the button." "Industrial Designer: Because we kind of tried to but we kind of failed with the budget that we have Marketing: So a four It is it g it g goes it is not the best we could do I guess But it all has to do with the budget because it is it is not the bad idea we had so So if I understood it right we have to count these numbers Project Manager: Ooh And ? What ? Marketing: Oh Alright Word document the we have to count them Project Manager: Count them Add them ? Or Marketing: just add them and then divide them Project Manager: Could somebody start calculator ? Industrial Designer: Ah we can do the math Marketing: I all made it po I I all made it I all made it possible for a positive questions so we can count it I mean if you have reversed question you have to reverse the scale Industrial Designer: Did you make this questionnaire or what ? I would not be able to do it that fast User Interface: Oh Wait a second Oh It is it is gone wrong Marketing: How hard is it ? User Interface: No it is if you press twice on the plus button then you get s s Marketing: Oh there though there is no n There is no num pads User Interface: No That is why it is Marketing: It is a it is a bit Industrial Designer: Just type in the digits They are all one digit numbers right ? And then you can count them together Marketing: I think you can just count them by a Three plus one four Nine No sixteen sixteen plus six Industrial Designer: How hard is this ? Marketing: Twenty two Twenty two ? Industrial Designer: Never mind Twenty four Twenty eight Project Manager: That was the last one That was that Marketing: That is three Or le less than a three Industrial Designer: the lower the The lower the score the better right ? Marketing: makes three point one one one one one one one Project Manager: So we are better than average","When discussing whether they were on the right track after so many changes in their design, the Marketing offered a questionnaire for the group to check if they did the right thing. The questionnaire included both positive issues and negative ones, and by ticking all the questions on it, the group received a mark to evaluate their work as well as compare themselves to their counterparts. To the Project Manager's satisfaction, the score eventually showed that they made the right decision and exceeded some others." "Professor B: This is the arm wrestling ? PhD C: we formed a coalition actually We already made it into one Professor B: That s the best thing So tell me about it PhD E: So it s well it s pause spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering depending on if we put if we square the transfer function or not And then with over estimation of the noise depending on the the SNR with smoothing along time smoothing along frequency It s very simple smoothing things And the best result is when we apply this procedure on FFT bins with a Wiener filter And there is no noise addition after after that So it s good because it s difficult when we have to add noise to to to find the right level PhD A: Are you looking at one in in particular of these two ? PhD E: So the sh it s the sheet that gives fifty f three point sixty six the second sheet is abo about the same It s the same idea but it s working on mel bands and it s a spectral subtraction instead of Wiener filter and there is also a noise addition after cleaning up the mel bins Mmm Well the results are similar Professor B: I mean it s comment it s actually very similar I mean if you look at databases the one that has the smallest smaller overall number is actually better on the Finnish and Spanish but it is worse on the Aurora I mean on the TI TI digits PhD E: on the multi condition in TI digits Professor B: So it probably does not matter that much either way But when you say you unified do you mean it s one piece of software now or ? PhD E: So now we are setting up the software",The team had started putting together the various techniques they had developed into a single software. Their score was 53.6 and it was working on spectral subtraction and noise addition after cleaning up mel bins. The professor did not think much had changed. "PhD E: And the best result is when we apply this procedure on FFT bins with a Wiener filter And there is no noise addition after after that So it s good because it s difficult when we have to add noise to to to find the right level PhD A: Are you looking at one in in particular of these two ? PhD E: So the sh it s the sheet that gives fifty f three point sixty six the second sheet is abo about the same It s the same idea but it s working on mel bands and it s a spectral subtraction instead of Wiener filter and there is also a noise addition after cleaning up the mel bins Mmm Well the results are similar Professor B: I mean it s comment it s actually very similar","PhD E explained that the best result was when FFT bins were applied with a Wiener filter and no noise was added. The results with noise addition were very close, but not as good." "PhD C: we formed a coalition actually We already made it into one Professor B: That s the best thing So tell me about it PhD E: So it s well it s pause spectral subtraction or Wiener filtering depending on if we put if we square the transfer function or not And then with over estimation of the noise depending on the the SNR with smoothing along time smoothing along frequency It s very simple smoothing things And the best result is when we apply this procedure on FFT bins with a Wiener filter And there is no noise addition after after that So it s good because it s difficult when we have to add noise to to to find the right level PhD A: Are you looking at one in in particular of these two ? PhD E: So the sh it s the sheet that gives fifty f three point sixty six the second sheet is abo about the same It s the same idea but it s working on mel bands and it s a spectral subtraction instead of Wiener filter and there is also a noise addition after cleaning up the mel bins Mmm Well the results are similar Professor B: I mean it s comment it s actually very similar I mean if you look at databases the one that has the smallest smaller overall number is actually better on the Finnish and Spanish but it is worse on the Aurora I mean on the TI TI digits PhD E: on the multi condition in TI digits Professor B: So it probably does not matter that much either way But when you say you unified do you mean it s one piece of software now or ?",The professor was happy to hear that the team had already started putting together a final software. The professor also noted that Finnish and Spanish had the smallest overall number compared to Aurora. "PhD C: So the frame dropping is the last thing that we do So what we do is we compute the silence probability convert it to that binary flag and then in the end you c up upsample it to match the final features number of PhD A: Did that help then ? PhD C: It seems to be helping on the well matched condition So that s why this improvement I got from the last result So And it actually r reduced a little bit on the high mismatch so in the final weightage it s b b better because the well matched is still weighted more than Professor B: So I mean you were doing a lot of changes Did you happen to notice how much the change was due to just this frame dropping problem ? What about this ? PhD C: y you had something on it Right ? PhD E: Just the frame dropping problem But it s it s difficult Sometime we we change two two things together and But it s around pause maybe it s less than one percent Professor B: Well But like we are saying if there s four or five things like that then pretty sho soon you are talking real improvement PhD E: And it And then we have to be careful with that also with the neural net because in comment the proposal the neural net was also working on after frame dropping Professor B: Oh that s a real good point PhD E: So Well we will have to be to do the same kind of correction Professor B: It might be hard if it s at the server side Right ? PhD E: Mmm Well we can do the frame dropping on the server side or we can just be careful at the terminal side to send a couple of more frames before and after and So I think it s OK PhD A: You have So when you maybe I do not quite understand how this works but could not you just send all of the frames but mark the ones that are supposed to be dropped ? Cuz you have a bunch more bandwidth Right ? Professor B: Well you could I mean it it always seemed to us that it would be kind of nice to in addition to reducing insertions actually use up less bandwidth But nobody seems to have cared about that in this pause evaluation PhD A: And that way the net could use If the net s on the server side then it could use all of the pause frames PhD C: Yes it could be It s like you mean you just transferred everything and then finally drop the frames after the neural net Right ? That s that s one thing which PhD A: But you could even mark them before they get to the server PhD C: Right now we are ri Right now what wha what we did is like we just mark we just have this additional bit which goes around the features saying it s currently a it s a speech or a nonspeech So there is no frame dropping till the final features like including the deltas are computed And after the deltas are computed you just pick up the ones that are marked silence and then drop them PhD A: Mm I see I see Professor B: So it would be more or less the same thing with the neural net I guess actually PhD C: So that s what that s what that s what this is doing right now Professor B: OK So what s ? That s that s a good set of work that that PhD C: Just one more thing Like should we do something f more for the noise estimation because we still ? Professor B: I was wondering about that That was I I had written that down there PhD E: So we actually I did the first experiment This is pause with just fifteen frames We take the first fifteen frame of each utterance to it and average their power spectra I tried just plugging the Guenter noise estimation on this system and it it got worse but of course I did not play pause with it But Mm I did not pause do much more pause for noise estimation I just tried this Professor B: Well it s not surprising it would be worse the first time it does seem like you know i i i i some compromise between always depending on the first fifteen frames and a a always depending on a a pause is is is a good idea maybe you have to weight the estimate from the first teen fifteen frames more heavily than than was done in your first attempt But No I mean do you have any way of assessing how well or how poorly the noise estimation is currently doing ? PhD E: Mmm No we do not We do not have nothing pause that PhD C: Is there was there any experiment with ? Well I I did The only experiment where I tried was I used the channel zero VAD for the noise estimation and frame dropping So I do not have a I do not have a split like which one helped more So It it was the best result I could get Professor B: So that s something you could do with this final system Right ? Just do this everything that is in this final system except use the channel zero PhD C: Mm For the noise estimation Professor B: And then see how much better it gets If it s you know essentially not better then pause it s probably not worth PhD C: But the Guenter s argument is slightly different It s like ev even even if I use a channel zero VAD I m just averaging the the s power spectrum But the Guenter s argument is like if it is a non stationary pause segment then he does not update the noise spectrum So he s like he tries to capture only the stationary part in it So the averaging is like different from pause updating the noise spectrum only during stationary segments So th the Guenter was arguing that I mean even if you have a very good VAD averaging it like over the whole thing is not a good idea Because you are averaging the stationary and the non stationary and finally you end up getting something which is not really the s because you anyway you can not remove the stationary part fr I mean non stationary part from the signal",The team thought that the differences in performance between well-matched and high mismatch may have to do with the frame dropping problem. Tinkering around and changing a few small things was suggested as a way of improving performance. The team though it would also be nice to have the net on the server side where it would use less bandwidth. The team also discussed if averaging over the entire spectrum was a good idea. "PhD E: Just the frame dropping problem But it s it s difficult Sometime we we change two two things together and But it s around pause maybe it s less than one percent Professor B: Well But like we are saying if there s four or five things like that then pretty sho soon you are talking real improvement PhD E: And it And then we have to be careful with that also with the neural net because in comment the proposal the neural net was also working on after frame dropping Professor B: Oh that s a real good point PhD E: So Well we will have to be to do the same kind of correction Professor B: It might be hard if it s at the server side Right ? PhD E: Mmm Well we can do the frame dropping on the server side or we can just be careful at the terminal side to send a couple of more frames before and after and So I think it s OK PhD A: You have So when you maybe I do not quite understand how this works but could not you just send all of the frames but mark the ones that are supposed to be dropped ? Cuz you have a bunch more bandwidth Right ? Professor B: Well you could I mean it it always seemed to us that it would be kind of nice to in addition to reducing insertions actually use up less bandwidth But nobody seems to have cared about that in this pause evaluation PhD A: And that way the net could use If the net s on the server side then it could use all of the pause frames PhD C: Yes it could be It s like you mean you just transferred everything and then finally drop the frames after the neural net Right ? That s that s one thing which PhD A: But you could even mark them before they get to the server PhD C: Right now we are ri Right now what wha what we did is like we just mark we just have this additional bit which goes around the features saying it s currently a it s a speech or a nonspeech So there is no frame dropping till the final features like including the deltas are computed And after the deltas are computed you just pick up the ones that are marked silence and then drop them PhD A: Mm I see I see Professor B: So it would be more or less the same thing with the neural net I guess actually PhD C: So that s what that s what that s what this is doing right now Professor B: OK So what s ? That s that s a good set of work that that PhD C: Just one more thing Like should we do something f more for the noise estimation because we still ? Professor B: I was wondering about that That was I I had written that down there PhD E: So we actually I did the first experiment This is pause with just fifteen frames We take the first fifteen frame of each utterance to it and average their power spectra I tried just plugging the Guenter noise estimation on this system and it it got worse but of course I did not play pause with it But Mm I did not pause do much more pause for noise estimation I just tried this","PhD E thought that changing a few things could result in an improvement, but they had to be careful with the neural net. PhD also played around with noise estimation to improve the model but did not play around with it much." "Professor B: Well But like we are saying if there s four or five things like that then pretty sho soon you are talking real improvement PhD E: And it And then we have to be careful with that also with the neural net because in comment the proposal the neural net was also working on after frame dropping Professor B: Oh that s a real good point PhD E: So Well we will have to be to do the same kind of correction Professor B: It might be hard if it s at the server side Right ? PhD E: Mmm Well we can do the frame dropping on the server side or we can just be careful at the terminal side to send a couple of more frames before and after and So I think it s OK PhD A: You have So when you maybe I do not quite understand how this works but could not you just send all of the frames but mark the ones that are supposed to be dropped ? Cuz you have a bunch more bandwidth Right ? Professor B: Well you could I mean it it always seemed to us that it would be kind of nice to in addition to reducing insertions actually use up less bandwidth But nobody seems to have cared about that in this pause evaluation PhD A: And that way the net could use If the net s on the server side then it could use all of the pause frames PhD C: Yes it could be It s like you mean you just transferred everything and then finally drop the frames after the neural net",The professor wanted to know how much the model improved due to frame dropping. He thought four or five changes would result in good improvements. The professor highlighted that improvements should not come at a higher bandwidth. "Project Manager: Today functional design phase I will take you over the minutes of last last meeting that was just to get to know each other have a little thoughts on what your vision is and on this project so I put the minutes on the I made on the on the p the the project share so if you want to review them they are there I will do so after every meeting so if you have some information you want to take back you can find it there Anyways today three presentations from every one of you after that I got some new project requirements from project board so we are going to go af go after over this later But I want to start with stuff you did first so we can see what everybody came up with And after that we can have the new requirements and share some thoughts so Who would like want to go first ? Marketing: there was a little problem with my computer so not the whole presentation Project Manager: Anyway let us see what you have it is still a bit open Marketing: I want to open the my s oh no Project Manager: You should close it on your own notebook I guess So there ? Marketing: that is slide show Yes The functional requirements it is very important for the user he he wants to The the method we used it it is not m not a slide because it went wrong but the method we use we tested it w with a hundred men and we asked them to w what the remote f feel like and what what is important Project Manager: If I can cut in is it people or men ? Because I thought it was only men Marketing: the findings seventy five percent of the users find most remote controls ugly Project Manager: So we have to s we have to do something about that Marketing: and most th th they want to spend money for a better system for better remote control so we can do a l a little nice things with it and they use they use zap a lot fifty percent say they only So that is the most important things oh not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation but the relevant buttons are the power the channel selection and the volume selection It is the most basic buttons that a user wants to use less important is tel teletext they use it but it is not very important on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half and but not important is the channel selection the the ? Project Manager: That is a little weird Marketing: the the no no no no no that is very important but w and not important in the audio settings display settings Project Manager: we can we can hide those under a menu or something Marketing: new preferences preferences beep to find your control was Project Manager: That is like a button on your TV ? Marketing: that was in the test the the most people f find it irritating when they can not find a rem their remote control so I think it is a bee beep to sound it and you can find it And another thing they want was speech recognition so they can say what they want to let us go to channel one and that is kind of things And they want maybe an LCD screen to to look it wh what is on every channel and what do I want with it ? Project Manager: We want to have a little preview on the remote control Preview what is on the channel User Interface: Is that manageable ? Because it sounds pretty expensive too Project Manager: It is possible but I think it is expensive but do continue Marketing: my personal preferences is a button for my favourite channel so I can I do not know so I can zap to my f quick to my favourite channel wh what I so the remote mu must see or must see wha what mine preferences are for which channel Project Manager: you do not set it yourself Marketing: so I can zap t to Project Manager: it just remembers the channel that you are on most for example You want the you want it to be programmed for example y programmed f or you want it to recognise your favourite channel ? Let us see you you spend twenty minutes each day on that channel so it recognises your favourite channel Marketing: that is what my personal preference like Project Manager: so it is it it does it recognise itself you do not have to set it Marketing: itself Maybe it is easier to to sell it but I do not know it is manageable but we will we will see it is a little bit it is the end of it It is a little bit I lost it Project Manager: No problem it is it is User Interface: Basically I have some issues which you discussed earlier let us just start with the method It sounds really easy what does the user do what does the th remote control do but there are quite some issues So the things I am going to concentrate on are the user aspect because the technical aspect that is pretty much covered We can do that What goes wrong at the user Gets the remote control Where is the remote control ? We have all had it once I want to watch some television where is the remote control ? That was one of your ideas which you posted in the network folder a really good idea these are just the issues I come to some personal experience findings possible solutions later Searches for the button There are many buttons on a remote control which are not clear so either we lose those or we try to make it a little bit more clear also symbols tend to fade after a while There is nothing more annoying than faded symbols because you do not know which channel is this button so possibly we could find something for that Project Manager: so have it more make it more durable actually User Interface: yes covered that Oh yes user presses the button usually when you have a lot of buttons buttons are small So you press more once remote control goes kablouey or something like that Project Manager: so the buttons should be User Interface: so we have to pay attention not to put too mun too many buttons on the remote control And possibly also the size so more important buttons bigger Project Manager: Wow The s Make it make them bigger User Interface: So this is basically what I h had in mind in the fadeproof symbols locator a sound so clear we should stick to existing symbols but maybe we could do a little investigation to see whether some symbols are need to be replaced by others This I pretty much covered So what we want to go to is not this one but more less buttons easy some bigger buttons that is basically what I had in mind So This is not the final design this is just a general idea of how I would like to see basically the general idea Project Manager: I must say that it That was it that was good So we agree on the the part that we need to get something on the on the remote to find it somewhere and increase it the durability of of the thing User Interface: I think it is a really good idea Project Manager: The other aspects we will just see how what you came up with and what is possible for that budget Industrial Designer: that is fine now work a little with me Well let us start it as it is the method There are a few questions that need to be answered you already talked about it a little bit Which buttons are wanted is our remote control universal or should it be programmable if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need something like a mode that you can switch it Because then the buttons have to send out a different signal then they would normally do And how big is the remote control going to be ? I will tell you why that is important to me there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control so that is why I also would like to say go a little bit easy on the designs I heard ab you talking about beeps and about video screens but the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already So keep in mind that everything that you keep think of it has to b to be built So it is that is not as easy as it s might look like material study I am working on that for the the costs I have to check out how far I can go with that Normally a circuit board is made of fibreglass and the wires are made of copper that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way I think we can just go on with that then I have read more integration of materials means less cost for the production The more we can make at once in one piece that is cheaper Project Manager: You mean integrate them all into the circuit board Industrial Designer: Exactly so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it then that is cheaper So we have to make something that is not too difficult in design again This is what look like looks like if you press one button so this is not the entire thing You have the the power coming in then you have like a switch The switch if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor that thinks over a Morse code that is how you should see it The Morse code goes to the amplifier then the signal is sent to two light bulbs You have infrared and an interv how to say it ? a light in indication light that you know that it is functioning here again that is my story about the different modes if you do want to make remote universal then the processor has to make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed That makes it much more complex so we really need to have a look do we want that or not I do not have any personal p preferences so far except for the materials to be used light that they are light","Marketing gave a presentation in the first place based on research and came up with ideas like what their remote control should look like, buttons design, whether the new product should have LCD screens. Marketing also suggested that there could be any chances that remote control could know users' preference channels, and there would be a beep when they couldn't find control. Then User Interface delivered a speech mainly on the size of buttons and remote control, and agreed to find remote control easier and increase its durability. At last, Industrial Designer did an analysis on what Marketing and User Interface said before and claimed that there still needed a lot to know but integration of materials meant less cost for the production and they should make up a different Morse code when some button was pressed." "Marketing: the findings seventy five percent of the users find most remote controls ugly Project Manager: So we have to s we have to do something about that Marketing: and most th th they want to spend money for a better system for better remote control so we can do a l a little nice things with it and they use they use zap a lot fifty percent say they only So that is the most important things oh not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation but the relevant buttons are the power the channel selection and the volume selection It is the most basic buttons that a user wants to use less important is tel teletext they use it but it is not very important on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half and but not important is the channel selection the the ? Project Manager: That is a little weird Marketing: the the no no no no no that is very important but w and not important in the audio settings display settings Project Manager: we can we can hide those under a menu or something Marketing: new preferences preferences beep to find your control was Project Manager: That is like a button on your TV ? Marketing: that was in the test the the most people f find it irritating when they can not find a rem their remote control so I think it is a bee beep to sound it and you can find it And another thing they want was speech recognition so they can say what they want to let us go to channel one and that is kind of things And they want maybe an LCD screen to to look it wh what is on every channel and what do I want with it ?","Marketing found that seventy five percent of the users thought most remote controls ugly, and most people found it irritating when they couldn't find their remote control. And another thing Marketing found important was that users had a feeling for speech recognition so that they could choose channels by voice. And they wanted maybe an LCD screen to search what's on every channel." "Industrial Designer: that is fine now work a little with me Well let us start it as it is the method There are a few questions that need to be answered you already talked about it a little bit Which buttons are wanted is our remote control universal or should it be programmable if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need something like a mode that you can switch it Because then the buttons have to send out a different signal then they would normally do And how big is the remote control going to be ? I will tell you why that is important to me there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control so that is why I also would like to say go a little bit easy on the designs I heard ab you talking about beeps and about video screens but the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already So keep in mind that everything that you keep think of it has to b to be built So it is that is not as easy as it s might look like material study I am working on that for the the costs I have to check out how far I can go with that Normally a circuit board is made of fibreglass and the wires are made of copper that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way I think we can just go on with that then I have read more integration of materials means less cost for the production The more we can make at once in one piece that is cheaper Project Manager: You mean integrate them all into the circuit board Industrial Designer: Exactly so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it then that is cheaper So we have to make something that is not too difficult in design again This is what look like looks like if you press one button so this is not the entire thing You have the the power coming in then you have like a switch The switch if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor that thinks over a Morse code that is how you should see it The Morse code goes to the amplifier then the signal is sent to two light bulbs You have infrared and an interv how to say it ? a light in indication light that you know that it is functioning here again that is my story about the different modes if you do want to make remote universal then the processor has to make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed That makes it much more complex so we really need to have a look do we want that or not I do not have any personal p preferences so far except for the materials to be used light that they are light","First Industrial Designer raised questions like whether their remote control would be universal and should it be programmable or not, because they needed something like a mode to send out a different signal so that the remote can work in this way. Then the size of the remote was also put by Industrial Designer since there were already plenty of technical parts in it and it was quite complex to deal with material problems. But at last Industrial Designer came up with the idea of integration of materials and in this way, the new product would cost less." "Project Manager: I will get back to my thing then back this up to the screen So I got some new information on the project specifications are changing a little Like you said teletext is not not very popular anymore because the the internet nowadays people do not use the teletext anymore or hardly so it can either Well I do not think we should remove the button because there are always people who are using it But I do not think it should be very it should be one of the big buttons for example Just put it somewhere or under second option or whatever It is not important anymore we are targeting young people now because our This is a new product and with this new product we want to appeal to younger people which are the younger people were defined under forty I so I think it is that is also good with the fashion and everything Marketing: and they want to pay for it Project Manager: They want to pay for it people are willing to spend money actually to buy a remote that they like If they like the way it looks the way it functions so they are actually going to spend spend money on it Marketing: With more Where with more technical specifications Project Manager: see how far we can go with it anyway so And one thing that should be important is that the corporate l colour and slogan are recognisable which is apparently black and yellow but I am not sure if we I think we should keep the the logo in mind because with colours you can have a lot of fashionable colours and everything on it which suits everybodys taste So With that concept I started thinking so why not just steal Nokias idea and just make changeable covers for your I mean those cost hardly anything I think and people could even spend extra money on buying a cover and so have an entire new remote control that they like to see Or we can sh for example we can make a different a basic design And sell the covers separately for example That is just a little marketing idea that could be applied so you can p it appeals to really everyone So you do not have to I think you do not have to make entire remote controls We make a basic one and manufacture this cover separately So that was that was my idea on what we could do to appeal this product to everyone So just I am not sure if you came up with anything in the meantime after making a presentation Would you like to share ? Industrial Designer: No I think this is a good idea User Interface: Is it manageable ? Is it easy ? Marketing: with with an LCD screen you can Project Manager: Oh I think we should lose the LCD screen Industrial Designer: Y Yes I think so too Project Manager: like you said I think for example it is it is huge I think the LCD is huge it consumes batteries like hell I think it takes up a lot of a lot of power User Interface: And it costs too much to fabricate Project Manager: It costs a lot I think User Interface: so we are on a tight budget here Project Manager: What we could do what could be possible is maybe not an LCD screen but with a preview but y I am not sure if it is even possible For example a little TV guide Like you have a little just just a text only not colour just a little text thing so you can use your remote as a TV guide I am not sure it is even possible Industrial Designer: I have to check that out Project Manager: find a little compromise in that but What did I write down ? I think the p the beep is a very simple thing to imple implement just make a button on your TV and just hit the button it beeps somewhere I think it is easy to implement we should go for that Industrial Designer: whe where do you want to hit the T you want to we want a button on the television Project Manager: I thin I mean where else should you put it ? Industrial Designer: In th but that rules out a universal remote control Because that is not possible Project Manager: but how are you going to use that if your I mean if your remote control is lost how are you going to press where are you going to press the button ? User Interface: Maybe just a slapon sticker with a button which sends out a small signal Project Manager: A slapon sticker Oh you mean as like a separate thing you can attach to your TV A little little box you can attach to your TV is fine then Industrial Designer: then I would I would like to know now if we want the universal remote control or not because that is determines everything I am going to do Project Manager: I think it is universal I think we should go for universal because apparently we are a separate company making separate c remote controls to sell to a lot of diverse people I think universal remote control should be possible Industrial Designer: then I go for that Marketing: Everyone wants to buy it so we w Project Manager: I think we are targeting everyone Industrial Designer: it is fine with me but then I know what to look for Project Manager: universal is good Speech recognition I think it is very hard because we are selling across multiple countries So I think implementing speech recognition is such a small apparatus it is very hard to do Marketing: Or when you say one two i it it is enough Project Manager: but I do not see Arabian people speaking one two whatever User Interface: Besides that the technology is not really super yet so that is a problem in implementing this Project Manager: It is not a mature technology I think it takes a lot of memory and everything in in a remote control User Interface: It is a good idea but it is just not I do not think the markets ripe for that yet Project Manager: I do not think it should be implemented in a remote control yet What else do we have ? well you should you should look into the in into the materials that are real durable So the the the symbols will not fade maybe a little harder plastic or especially li we do not maybe we do not have have to do all the buttons but especially the ones that are the popular buttons so those always fade first Mm the thing is the most important things that we have now Industrial Designer: If we make a remote control with changeable covers then we can also make a cover for every language area That is fo is especially for older people that they can read it read it in their own language Project Manager: Well we are not we are not targeting older people we should remember that Everything we target is under forty You assume that that they read correctly and I think they are The most important thing about young people is that they are really sensitive to to trends that are passing through the world User Interface: But should the exchangeable covers include the buttons themselves or just the Project Manager: No of course No I think it is just something you you put over them because we c you ca Well tha that is not a that is not a bad that is not even User Interface: that is a problem with the with the text then Project Manager: it is not even a bad idea I mean for example if you are if you are into the durability issue you could For example if your buttons are faded after I mean if you make a durable remote they are faded you can just buy a new cover I am not sure it is it is hard to make So it is a good and a bad idea Industrial Designer: but I know that the buttons are like a Nokia telephone on one sleeve so you do not have to change your whole cover we can make something that you can only remove the sleeve User Interface: Oh I know what you mean Industrial Designer: Know what I mean ? It works the same as a Nokia telephone it is it is in my kay Project Manager: I know it is just just a one one piece of rubber for example that is what I something I have to look into Either either change both the buttons and and the cover or just the cover I am not sure which which is easier so anyway this is what we are going to do afterwards just lunch break and have more individual work after that so let us see what we let us see we So you have to come up with a components concept I want some you should do some trendwatching because even if we are if we are going to do those covers and everything what people really want that is what we need to know in this phase because that is going to be the essential final design that we are going to come up with I think user interface is fairly obvious I mean it should be very intuitive s it should speak for itself for example I bought a remote control last week with a new TV it was it l it is like all buttons and you have no idea what it does at first and I am total TV new anyway So I think it should be have less or l very little buttons and maybe a second second level menu for the advanced things Or maybe just stick them under a menu like you said the the sound options and the surround and whatever they are more complicated just stick them under one menu and give it a just put it in in s in a software piece you can menu and you can select everything you want to to set on your TV User Interface: Is it techni technically possible to send a signal to a television and then pops up a menu because we are working with different types of television so we are going to work with that ? Industrial Designer: I do not think so No I do not think so Because the television needs to respond to the signal User Interface: It is an inbuilt menu Industrial Designer: and if it does not know how it is User Interface: is not it ? Yes Industrial Designer: Exactly that is not possible Project Manager: I am not sure if it is impossible but there is a chance it is not so User Interface: Or we could use a doublesided for less used functions Project Manager: A doublesided remote control ? I do not think that is useful User Interface: with the cover I it is basically an idea to overcome these issues Project Manager: but then you are going to have a lot of wasted buttons For example you have a Sony TV and the half of the buttons will not function if you have a for a Sony that will not for a Philips TV User Interface: but functions which are not frequently used Project Manager: I do not think we should User Interface: Because if we use a universal remote control we are going to have to have most buttons on it Project Manager: for ex you have to make it a little decision between the part if you want a universal remote control that it should do what people usually do with their TVs not not the very complicated settings that you can usually do that with either a old old remote control if they really hate that thing but you can not you can not take into consideration all the different brands of TVs Industrial Designer: But that might be broken Project Manager: I think there is I think there is a standard for example between because usually the the menu is the menu button is is usable between different brands Especially the big ones the big brands so Because everybody I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button so I think I am not sure if you can put some research into that if it is possible I think just a b and the navigation is very basic it is usually the same thing Industrial Designer: Mm But I think there must be a way to invoke the more complicated functions of a television For instance if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours then you should be able to get everything out of the television that is in it Project Manager: that is true I think so Industrial Designer: Because otherwise you will lose functions by buying our Project Manager: we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu I think it is possible just the way how to Industrial Designer: I thi I think so too Project Manager: then then you could do everything I suppose because usually the TVs have tha that inside in this other little piece of software so it is Industrial Designer: And I think that our r remote control should not look like any other For instance Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices and you always grab the wrong one because formatting of the buttons is exactly the same only the labels are different Project Manager: I think it should be a little distinct from everything else Industrial Designer: We should not do that Project Manager: because it is either it is both mayb maybe the shape can be a little different User Interface: I have some ideas I have some ideas Project Manager: Maybe it is a little more curves or whatever Industrial Designer: Mm that is your division User Interface: I will put some on paper and present them next time the ideas that I have Project Manager: because we have forty minutes I am not sure how much time we have left for the meeting anyway so User Interface: I heard a beep go Project Manager: but it was not me it was him closing something","At first Project Manager limited remote control's appealing population to younger people less than 40 years, which meant their remote control should be trendy. And also corporate color and slogan should be recognizable on the remote control, which contributed to the idea of whether there should be a replaceable cover." "Project Manager: because usually the the menu is the menu button is is usable between different brands Especially the big ones the big brands so Because everybody I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button so I think I am not sure if you can put some research into that if it is possible I think just a b and the navigation is very basic it is usually the same thing Industrial Designer: Mm But I think there must be a way to invoke the more complicated functions of a television For instance if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours then you should be able to get everything out of the television that is in it Project Manager: that is true I think so Industrial Designer: Because otherwise you will lose functions by buying our Project Manager: we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu I think it is possible just the way how to Industrial Designer: I thi I think so too Project Manager: then then you could do everything I suppose because usually the TVs have tha that inside in this other little piece of software so it is Industrial Designer: And I think that our r remote control should not look like any other For instance Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices","Their remote control could be purchased in a situation when users' old remote had broken, so a universal remote control could be a must. Project Manager put forward this idea but did not know if there would be any chance to accomplish it easily, and Industrial Designer it would be possible but still needed some research." "Project Manager: So anyway we could do some i do some work now on on the design for example I mean what do you want do you want but User Interface: but we like some some curves or Project Manager: may maybe something like this But though smooth inside So you have the transmitter here for example Let us see that you what would be handy I think that the the buttons should be the channel buttons should be on their own Let us see one two God damn it User Interface: Oh we get the general ideas yes Project Manager: Another one here Let us see what I think this should these are always on top of the of the control so they should be here User Interface: and since you are holding it like this I suggest you put the channel up channel down and volume Project Manager: Think it is like this Withi within the just take it User Interface: So you have the up channel the down channel the volume do we want that horizontal or vertical ? Project Manager: Do you take triangles or Marketing: it is it is fine I think Project Manager: I think it should be I think it User Interface: This is basically what people are accustomed to Project Manager: Maybe we should make them bigger or whatever User Interface: but this is just a g general idea maybe the menu button can go i in the middle Project Manager: in the middle It is it is usually there but Mm Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should also make something like a flash on it if you if it is lost for people that are deaf They they will not hear the the beep Project Manager: but for example if it is lost in your armchair we will not see the flash User Interface: You will not be able to find it Project Manager: And flash takes up a lot of batteries again Industrial Designer: it is true but it is it is only has to do so when you press the button that it is lost User Interface: We could make a combination that it goes beep and that you that some light lights up Project Manager: I thought about for deaf people for example so We could do that let us see Marketing: Just a light on it or User Interface: So we have the basic channels we have got here the power button somewhere over here ? Project Manager: Oh it is true that thing should be central You should not be you should not press it by accident but it should not be stacked away somewhere User Interface: I usually press it on top At least that is what I am accustomed to Project Manager: like that is going to work Industrial Designer: I am not sure if it is possible User Interface: What would you like to ? Project Manager: I thought maybe we should move the buttons down and put it here for example Marketing: And you are reading from the t you always read from the top to the the bottom of it Project Manager: From top to bottom that is true I think the bu the power button should be on top because it is the first thing you do turn it on So power button on top User Interface: mute button Is that somewhere here ? Project Manager: Mute Do we hardly I think it should be at the bottom somewhere User Interface: Is that used often ? The mute button ? Do people use that often ? Project Manager: Mute Turn the sound off User Interface: Because I am pretty much accustomed to it right over here at least in general Project Manager: I do not think it is important but I think it I think it should be you c User Interface: It is not that important no Project Manager: you could put it somewhere here Marketing: Or or with the volume selection Project Manager: No because it people are accustomed to that Marketing: Around not not at top at the around the volume selection Project Manager: it is Can I have that ? That is j Marketing: I do not know where exactly Project Manager: Take this out and here see are we going to take triangles anyway ? I am drawing triangles but User Interface: That is pretty much what people are accustomed to Project Manager: it is maybe a bigger lesser than thing So anyway I think this is should be the channels and or sh User Interface: I am accustomed to the channels being on top Project Manager: this two channel up and down","Buttons design was all about volume, channel, power, and some other instant ideas. The team discussed their sizes, big or small, and places, up, center, or down, and also their arrangements, vertical or horizontal, and reached a conclusion that the power button could be on top. They came up with mute button as well but Project Manager didn't think it was important." "Industrial Designer: Shall we also look if it is possible to make a rechargeable remote ? That you do not have to buy new batteries if every Project Manager: for that is it is on one part it is it is a good thing to recharge it Marketing: Maybe it is more ex expensive Project Manager: Maybe we should what what could be possible is one with rechargeable batteries for example You have just put Penlite batteries that are rechargeable because it is an it is it is it is very annoying User Interface: But is not that expensive in the entire package ? Industrial Designer: But that is already possible Project Manager: I am not sure y I am not sure it is if it is expensive but just take a look at it because it might be a very good idea Because if it is it is useful to have it rechargeable but at the same time if you do not want recha if you forgot to recharge it and you want to watch TV now you want to be able to put different batteries in it use it now and not in half an hour Industrial Designer: Yes Yes you could make a device but I am not sure how that is possible with the costs that you can put in normal batteries rechargeable Project Manager: I think I have a nice idea Industrial Designer: but it you are the remote also can act as a recharger So then you can choose you have every decision Know what I mean ? You can put in normal Penlites rechargeable Penlites but they can also be recharged with the remote with a wire Project Manager: I think it is it is a pretty good idea to have like sort of a maybe a base station that you put on the TV Could be flat you could insert your remote into it Industrial Designer: But I think that will cost a lot a normal wire would be better Like a like a PDA a handheld You can just put it in the electricity and it charges itself Project Manager: Well we were talking about the fact that we wanted to insert either a beep or a flash into the thing with a little separate signal Industrial Designer: you do not need basic station Yes Project Manager: or So you could put that on a TV for example Industrial Designer: That is possible that is true Project Manager: It could be very flat could be very small It is a very small I am drawing it big now but So you can put your remote on flat for example And at the backside of remote just just just a little hole for example you just put it down it recharges for example I do not think it is very expensive User Interface: But again is not that too expensive ? Because that means that we have to implement rechargeable batteries a docking station Project Manager: I am not sure if it costs a lot that that is what he r That is that you that is what you buy yourself Industrial Designer: Yes I am going to try to find that out I am not sure if there is information available on this Project Manager: It is just an idea we have to find out if it is possible User Interface: And do people actually want that ? To pay extra they want to pay for rechargeable ? Marketing: they want to pay for it Project Manager: Do they want but they want a rechargeable one ? I am not sure you should find out if it is if rechargeable is important Marketing: Th there was not a el ask esque Industrial Designer: These are comfort issues So I think people will pay they wanted to pay for comfort Project Manager: They want to pay for comfort",Industrial Designer raised an idea of making a rechargeable remote control which could have a wire and could charge itself when it was put in the electricity. Project Manager also had some responsive sparkles but they could hardly be applied. But at least one thing the team all agreed to was that a rechargeable remote was a comfort and people could pay for comfort. "Project Manager: we just have to see what it looks like Industrial Designer: I would like to make a decision What it costs and what kind of materials that we can choose what we want in it Project Manager: if you have some financial information that that would be nice Industrial Designer: and exactly I need it User Interface: Could you post some other essentials of what people want so that I can work with some buttons where to put it You seem to have information on that I would like to see some of it Industrial Designer: Was it not possible to send emails around the office ? Project Manager: No it was not was not allo User Interface: No it is not No Project Manager: not allowed so So that is why I am not sure that you are allowed to share documents on the on the draft I do not care I have not heard any complaints yet User Interface: Well I have your PowerPoint presentation I can get some inf information out of that Marketing: but I Here I have the the s the homepage of our internet Project Manager: they include the new one Or just for you Marketing: here is my marketing report maybe you ca you can look at that Project Manager: no I did not have that User Interface: Where would we want the teletext button ? Because we decided that it is n not that important Project Manager: All it tells just let us make make a new User Interface: Do we put it somewhere over here ? Project Manager: tick the new one other side let us increase it a little because Marketing: And wha what people want I have User Interface: Or maybe this is something for the next meeting I can draw out some ideas Project Manager: draw us up some some designs of of possible just keep in mind that the important buttons should be on top and either big so the more less important User Interface: Well we have decided more or less the basic structure I can put the other buttons in Project Manager: Just play a little with this put l shift a little up or down and we will see what looks best Industrial Designer: What what did you want to say ? Project Manager: Or just po post your designs from time to time on the product share Marketing: what I al already said is the the the remote controls are always lost but it it is also for people they want to learn it fast Project Manager: so we do not want we want very little buttons just the buttons you use a lot Marketing: It is it is easy to learn User Interface: Yes but it should cover all the functions so possibly just an idea that popped in Project Manager: what we had function that what people do so People change channels people they change the volume and they they change channel they turn TV off and on for example That is the basic fu that is what you do I am not sure who present that again but those are the basic function that people use it for so those should be very well represented User Interface: but we could go a step further because some TVs have the possibility to adjust brightness that kind of menus Project Manager: That is true but that is what we stick under the menu button Everything is you say in every TV that is configured under the menu User Interface: Yes but it Because we are making Industrial Designer: But that is the question is it ? Because it needs to be configured in the television under the menu If it is not then we can not reach it User Interface: We need to adjust to the technology Project Manager: But I think most modern TVs have it in their menu Industrial Designer: I think so too I think so too is not there a possibility to do research on that so we know that for sure ? If you rule out functions then and that gets known then people are not going to buy it Then the consumer bond or something says you can not do this and that with it That is a bad bad com commercial Project Manager: we will we will see what we can come up with Marketing: Another thing I want to say is that we are looking at the market for the age younger than forty on my report I did not ish I did not show it in my presentation they want to pay for an LCD screen and speech recognition Project Manager: The want to pay for Industrial Designer: Did they really said it like that ? Those two things Do they realise how much that costs ? Project Manager: Younger age sixteen and forty five User Interface: Oh we are not going to be able to sell it for twentyfive then with an LCD screen Project Manager: That is all here here it says Industrial Designer: No that is that is Even if i if we have this lost unit then we can not do it for that price Project Manager: age sixteen forty fi interest in main features more critical so we are not focusing on this All the interest in features not really the LC oh here Would you pay for speech recognition in a remote control ? Marketing: We can look at the possibilities for an LCD and Project Manager: just look at the possibilities then apparently it is what people want it is supposed to be a luxurious remote Marketing: How much it will cost Project Manager: maybe it is not even that expensive Or find a compromise maybe just a black and white or for some extra information on it on your programmes Industrial Designer: But I really need finance information Project Manager: Me too I mean we all do Right I think it is something we should put into consideration Apparently it is what people want so We should see if what it costs if it is possible we should do a little thing about design because it looks boring really to me Even if you put it even if you put a different cover on it it looks still looks boring Industrial Designer: And the design it should differ This is Philips huh ? Project Manager: I just drew something what which would fit into your hand easily User Interface: Something like this To make it kind of futuristic Industrial Designer: Mm Oh I realise if we make it small then it needs to be a little thicker Project Manager: I think it is a very Industrial Designer: because I need to put all the electronics in it If we make it s smaller less wide then we need to m make it a little thicker because I have to put all the electronics in it Project Manager: Mmhmm but you have to j just keep in mind it should not be too heavy I mean we can stick it in in there I think in the worst case we can even Could you give me the pen back ? So let us say that people would want an LCD thing Let us take take the basic design again what we oh crap came up with I will just make it a little bigger now So a transmitter here Anyway We could let us say we have an LCD screen people want an LCD screen So then we should probably put it here It does not have to be really big but just just have to be has to be there Think it is a good place people do not Marketing: If you are reading from top to bottom I think it is better to put it at the top Project Manager: No ? It is not that it is not the most important function it is just an extra thing it just you press the buttons on top Marketing: But i if you if you are going to put the LCD on it I think it is very important to use it Project Manager: because your finger is on top Marketing: because it is use it Project Manager: How can you use an LCD screen ? Marketing: But nee the function of it So you can use it maximum because it is a lot it costs a lot Project Manager: I I am not sure User Interface: Now it is pretty much tucked away in your hand Project Manager: if you t if you press a button you can see it ri I am not sure wha I am trying to imagine myself what it would look like Industrial Designer: M I personally would prefer it on the top Project Manager: You would prefer it n So we have three people saying it should be on top but then you would would s have to stack away your buttons somewhere else Marketing: It is expensive to build it User Interface: I am still not convinced of the Marketing: you must use the maximum of it Project Manager: Well if it if it is if it is possible wi if it is not too expensive we should include it because it is it is cool Industrial Designer: We should just try to make that if it is possible If it is possible we should really do it but we need that information Also keep in mind again the LCD screen is very flat but it needs transistors resistors I do not know what more and that needs space So I have to look if that is possible User Interface: what we have to decide now is what goes on top Do we put the volume control and the channel control here or do we put it on he Would we like to press it in the middle ? Project Manager: Or maybe we should m we could draw draw something a bit that has it on on on the bottom Marketing: In middle of it In the middle Project Manager: Maybe in a circle for example like we like in this example I think this is not good but for we could make circular buttons for example For up and down ma make it a circle on it User Interface: Yes but we do agree that we keep this at the centre because it is basically the most important function Project Manager: I think the channel button should be in the centre Marketing: It is the most import Project Manager: Channel button should be st stick together for example here in this section Because it is User Interface: Well that would make them quite small Project Manager: We are not sure about the size anyway User Interface: So maybe you would put them here Project Manager: just a general design You can make it as big as you want For example if you take User Interface: Yes but a big remote control probably not something which people would like Project Manager: let us see For example just Industrial Designer: If we have a a space issue we can also lose one battery It is rechargeable so we can stick with one instead of two Project Manager: I do not think if we if we even use an LCD screen we need to definitely Industrial Designer: That might be an option but if we need two batteries and an LCD screen that means a lot of space that we need Project Manager: but we have to see what the si what the size is Industrial Designer: But it has to be a little bit heavier Project Manager: The LCD does not have to nee does not need to be very big Industrial Designer: No but the things behind it space Marketing: It is on your computer User Interface: So would we like this or would we like the Project Manager: We either we have to decide what what people want Industrial Designer: I like this one more Project Manager: Either this one this this could be the luxurious one So we have channel buttons here I am just drawing something I think this would this would look cool You could have it for example small buttons here for some extra functions so if your basic functions here we should like we decided before programmes up and down and volume here User Interface: Let us see what we have here Marketing: Or And what about speech recognition Project Manager: Well you can just no I am not sure if we can do that but we could put a microphone in here for example Marketing: but or or an LCD or an speech I think it is LCD is better now Project Manager: Just to do research into both w what it costs and what it takes for space","Except uncertain problems such as LCD screen and speech recognition thing influenced by financial information, there would be many chances to have important buttons on top and bigger, different functional menus to adjust TV things, and very important idea of have replaceable covers, which could be designed to different colors meeting younger generation's demands." "User Interface: And we have the company logo here and this will be the infrared here and this will be the power point the on off button kind Marketing: What was the where is the LED ? User Interface: It is in the middle of one of the little Rs And then the other one is the power And we just have a simple design We wanted it all to be and all the buttons are accessible from your thumb Project Manager: Notice you have a number ten button User Interface: So you do not have to Oh that was a mistake was not it ? Industrial Designer: You just need the nought User Interface: Right no that is a zero Take that one off Sorry I was in charge of the numbers And this is just if you have got like eleven or twelve or thirt the plus Industrial Designer: So one plus one would be eleven User Interface: You can go one three or something Project Manager: Oh You press a plus button ? User Interface: You press that first and then you go one three Project Manager: Oh I have never heard of that kind before User Interface: Well we just thought we have all the numbers here so we wanted something representative of numbers larger than ten and Industrial Designer: because if you on your average remote if you press one twice you just go to or say you wanted channel twelve you press one and then you go to channel one and then two then you would just go to channel two instead of twelve Marketing: Oh there is no e Industrial Designer: So if you did like one plus two you could go to channel twelve or two plus two is channel twenty two User Interface: So the plus and then Project Manager: But Would you have to go zero plus one if you wanted to go to channel one or two ? User Interface: No no th all that is why we have all these numbers These numbers these numbers all work independently up to nine Project Manager: but I mean if you press it will go to that channel right away Because you got to press the plus afterwards User Interface: Oh no the plus is only for if you are going past the number nine Project Manager: I know but if if I want to go to say number like sixty five channel sixty five if I press the six it will go to channel six and then I will press the plus and then it will go to six and then put the five and it will go to sixty five ? User Interface: You p Oh No you press the plus first I I well it does not we have not really s I would have thought you pressed the plus first and then the six five but she says plus press which Industrial Designer: Well I do not mind we can further define that User Interface: what do you think is simpler ? Industrial Designer: I would not have thought it would be a problem that it went to channel six first in like on the way to channel sixty five Project Manager: it would not be a problem But I was just wondering Industrial Designer: But I suppose it is not as snappy Project Manager: like as long as we realise that is what it will do Marketing: Well the there is a there is a delay on remotes I think Where you can have it it is like a five second input time Industrial Designer: If you do not put it Marketing: So as long as you hit them dada As long as there is not a big pause between the t hitting the two buttons Was there so on the top there is volume and Industrial Designer: which is so you could just go like that without thinking about it like Marketing: Channel up volume up cool User Interface: Just so we can flick Project Manager: Right where where is the power button ? User Interface: It is in the middle of one of the little Rs Industrial Designer: It is the bigger R So it is just like User Interface: so it is all accessible Without m taking your hand off the remote Industrial Designer: we went for like a a circular design for the numbers because we thought that is kind of a more natural movement than just going like that with your thumb e ergonomics are all considered User Interface: And it might actually help with the repetitive stress injury as well Industrial Designer: It could cause another type of repetitive stress injury though But no I mean it is a different movement and the feel of it I mean we have made this out of Play Doh which is representing the you know the rubber and the spongy rubberness because it was said before in the material specification that this the this antiRSI material is often used in stress balls so this has got a you know a bit of give to it and it just feels feels different Project Manager: Bit of a stress ball feel Industrial Designer: Would you like to feel it yourselves ? How it fits in the palm of your hand ? Marketing: Oh it is nice Oh I think I killed the five I killed the four Oh god Industrial Designer: O as for the colours we were presented with a limited range of colours for this prototype But we are thinking that seeing as we are having it in interchangeable casing anyway that this is not necessarily a representation of the true colours that we would necessarily use Or the combination and we are thinking to carryon with the fruit and vegetable theme the colour combination just could just be named after different fruit like banana could be black and yellow watermelon red and green or vanilla might be the most popular if it just blends in User Interface: Because it would be quite subtle and Industrial Designer: more settled cream instead of the others are all a bit garish Project Manager: It looks more Think like vanilla and banana would Industrial Designer: Bananas more representative of our colour scheme like the company the yellow and black So that for corporate identity that would probably be the most strength","The prototype was a pretty simple design in a mango shape with the company logo on it and an on-off button. The color of the prototype was vanilla and yellow like and the material was a combination of rubber and plastic with a company logo. Moreover, there was a circular design for the numbers so it could be palm-held, accessible from the user' thumb. Besides, a plus button was added on the device so the channels could be switched easily without any confusion.For instance, one plus two it could go to channel twelve. But this function was challenged by Industrial Designer who argued that it was not snappy since the five-second pause input time was enough for switching to the double-digit channel. After all, the team agreed that it was overall, a good design, well representing the company's identity." Marketing: now I think for this one I could Would you guys prefer use the whiteboard or mayb maybe I will just do it on right on the screen where you can see it we are going to be doing an evaluation report together based on the protoptype that we have just seen and looking looking back at my notes from our both our conceptual and our functional meetings I made a list of what our original requirements and goals were back to our kickoff meeting this morning and we will evaluate as to whether we have s done what we set out to do and we are going to do it on a one to seven scale where one is true and seven is false So basically the lower p the lower the points the better so question number one Does the remote whoops Sorry Oh I am not going to be able I will do it on the whiteboard I can not change it so I am g I am going to ask you to push it down once I will write down our scores up on the,"Marketing recalled both the conceptual and functional meetings and made a list of what the original requirements and goals were based on kick-off meetings this morning. For the ten questions, Marketing asked the team to give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature." "Marketing: so number one Do we have a fancy lookandfeel ? Industrial Designer: We have been quite successful with the rubber coating Project Manager: The look is a little bit more playful Marketing: I guess that depends on your definition of fancy but it is definitely different It is not your traditional Industrial Designer: I think the colour has a lot to do with it I mean th the colours we were given for making the prototype are not the colours that I think we would have necessarily chosen It is not the kind of ooh at all sleek Project Manager: Oh you were only given red and black ? Industrial Designer: red black and yellow and orange User Interface: not very sleek and we do not want to go for black because most remote controls are black or grey So we want it to be stand out that way anyway Industrial Designer: But if you can imagine that in like a s just a maybe a kind of pale metallicy finish or something User Interface: A metallicy finish we were thinking Industrial Designer: Well I know know it is for rubber I mean different if you can visualise this in nice colours I think it would look quite fancy Marketing: I kind of I like the potato look Industrial Designer: Oh well potato mango fruit and veg User Interface: We we were we were thinking about Marketing: It is very different It is what ? Oh sorry the mango the mango look it is fruit or vegetable depends on your mood Industrial Designer: Totally It is really adaptable Marketing: So I myself would say a one or a two Project Manager: I would say two Personally User Interface: I w I would say two I think Marketing: It is a two ? actu that is pro that is going to get confusing like that so question number two was is it techn technologically innovative ? So I know we have the kinetic energy which is very innovative Industrial Designer: and the use of the rubber Marketing: Use of the rubber the use of the LED Industrial Designer: The LED use is not particularly innovative and we do not have any scroll buttons it is all pushbuttons there is no LCD control so if we are thinking about the rest of the market it is sort of probably halfway In some aspects it is like we said Project Manager: I would say maybe three User Interface: I will go for three as well Marketing: And I think I mean it it is tough to say because we were we did not want it to be any more innovative than this because then that would have defeated the purpose Industrial Designer: Though it was our specification User Interface: No Would not be simple Marketing: So I mean I we will put three but I think we actually reached our goal We did not want it any more than that question number three will it be easy to use ? User Interface: I think one for that Marketing: you can not really get confused with that I mean there will be s we have to work out the number the plus system User Interface: that is the only thing Marketing: But once that is figured out it should be fine Industrial Designer: and perhaps the turning on but Marketing: Number four Is this a goodlooking remote ? Remember that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly Industrial Designer: Again I think the colour comes into this Project Manager: colour will definitely be a factor I think that the logo could be smaller And maybe not such a prominent way Maybe like at the bottom kind of User Interface: Remember the management said that it it had to be prominent Project Manager: Oh it just had to be on there I guess Marketing: Should just not touch it This time it is the three I killed I was just wondering if it should be like flatter Or Industrial Designer: I suppose I have got quite big hands Project Manager: I like the appeal of it being like a big glob in your hand User Interface: But you know what I have just thought of there now What where is it going to sit in your living room ? Is it not going to fall off the arm of the sofa ? Project Manager: Maybe if the bottom was just sort of flat and then the rest is like Marketing: the bottom could be like ch chopped a bit User Interface: But then it would not sit as comfortably in your hand Project Manager: It would still be comfortable I think We c we could handle it I think Industrial Designer: Thing is like that it is not going anywhere particularly Marketing: Maybe it could it could be on the bottom so you would not loo like if it is flat here so it sits up User Interface: Oh that would be nice Project Manager: Ah it would fall over all the time though It would be annoying Industrial Designer: it is less what is th ha Marketing: I g If it is weighted maybe Project Manager: Kay we are done designing Industrial Designer: H it is got higher centre of gravity like that Marketing: So is this a goodlooking remote ? Would we want to show it off to our friends ? User Interface: Three You would though because it is bit it is more interesting than other remotes Project Manager: I think it was another colour and it was like I think it would look I think maybe a two Industrial Designer: I would definitely go for that rather than like your average plain old remote like that Marketing: I mean I gue it is personal taste but Industrial Designer: but definitely in another colour I am not happy with those colours Marketing: so should we say two for that ? question number five What is will people be willing to spend twenty five Euros on this product ? Remember that eighty percent of users were willing to spend more money when a remote control looked fancy User Interface: I think we have to market it in the right way that to say that it is simplistic So people do not just see it and think this is so simplistic I do not want to spend twenty five Euros We have to market it Marketing: it the marketing will have a lot to do with it Industrial Designer: And the kinetic energy shakerstyley whoo User Interface: And the kinetic energy part Marketing: Shake it and the buttons fall off Industrial Designer: But you know thosell be firmly on User Interface: Do not shake Oh no the plus You are Marketing: No I guess I do not know much about the remote control industry how much your average sells for Project Manager: But you are our Marketing Expert Marketing: but I know I am are not I ? User Interface: I think they are about ten po ten pound are not they ? About ten pounds Fifteen ? Marketing: But you do not have to buy batteries So in the long term this can actually save you money So we will market it that way too So I think with a good marketing scheme and the personalisation options it will Project Manager: I would give it a two still though Marketing: number six Can someone read it out ? Industrial Designer: Does this prototype match the operating behaviour of the average user Marketing: So that was mainly that the statistics User Interface: I think it does very well Industrial Designer: because the most accessible buttons are the volume and the and the channelchanging And it is just you will not have to think about it You do not have to look down to find them They are clearly there easy to use Marketing: I guess the I think the key word there is average because there were some people that used the video input and sound and stuff But they are not you and I really Number seven C Heather could you push it down ? Will this remote control be easy to find when lost ? Remember that fifty percent of users lose their remote regularly Project Manager: We have the alarm system Marketing: Now is there the is the alarm system still was it implemented ? User Interface: the bu when you press the alarm system the lights behind the and it will vibra Industrial Designer: l lights on and or flash as well But I mean it is not obviously obvious from the outside that that is going to happen because you can not s particularly see an alarm User Interface: It will be again in the marketing Project Manager: I thought the light from the inside was going to light up Or or was it going to make a noise ? Industrial Designer: But when the alarms not Project Manager: You press the button it makes a noise right ? Marketing: It turns into a duck and starts quacking User Interface: Oh that would be brilliant I would be tempted to Industrial Designer: Well the thing is if it was had an alarm system I mean when it when it lights up as we I mean it could light up when the alarm went But if it was hidden underneath the cushion or something there would not be any point So you can not see the alarm but it would light up User Interface: It would have to be in the market Project Manager: I though w it was going to make a noise User Interface: but you still could not see it Industrial Designer: but you can not see an alarm inside the alarm system itself User Interface: It would just be a little speaker on the back or something Marketing: We oh you are just explaining why it is not on the prototype But it will be there So we can we could say that We can give it a one because compared to every other remote ever m ever made this one will be easier to find Industrial Designer: That was not very clear Marketing: Question number eight Will it be easy to learn how to use this remote when brand new ? Remember that thirty four percent of users usually found it difficult So it has to be it is eas they will pick it up and they will know what to do User Interface: So the plu the plus w once that is written down on the page that will be really simple Marketing: The plus thing needs to be worked on Industrial Designer: just because it is we have decided to reduce it down to the basic buttons I think that in itself makes it so much easier to use Marketing: Do Does it make more sense for the middle one to be an just an enter button ? So then you would have to push two buttons every time at least Project Manager: so it is just like channel six six enter User Interface: That kind of annoys me though when it is zero six when you have to press Project Manager: but you do not have to press zeros User Interface: I do not know why Marketing: You could just press six enter Project Manager: And then like twelve enter Industrial Designer: And or sixty six enter y I think that is probably more straightforward Good User Interface: I would say w one Marketing: we will say yes it is one ? will it minimise the effects of RSI which was repeated strain injury ? which affected over a quarter of users Project Manager: I think so It is like right in the User Interface: But if you are zapping Project Manager: Your thumb might get a little bit Industrial Designer: that is what I was thinking User Interface: I do not think it will f Industrial Designer: We may have to do some more research into other strain injuries that we do not know about Project Manager: And that is kind of what the the PowerPoint slide thing said would be good for RSI so maybe it is but Marketing: I do not know what other options there are Industrial Designer: I think we are getting Marketing: Could I mean you could hold it in your left hand and d use your index finger But there is not really any other options unless it is like a keyboard So I think we did as as much as you can with a remote control So one or two do you think ? User Interface: I I would say t Marketing: Two number ten Did we somehow incorporate the company colour and logo ? Now is the colour going to be there even if it is like vanilla ? User Interface: N We we can not really do that because for example on the banana theme we can not have it as being yellow It will not stand out So n it is not always going to be the same colour Marketing: It sounds like the colours something that we Project Manager: Well the colours are yellow and grey So it could be grey on the banana one Marketing: But I mean the yell d yellows ugly though User Interface: we did not even rea Marketing: So I think we will have to talk to our executive managers and see if we can get away with just the RR Industrial Designer: Mm I think this is the the factor that we have been least successful in confronting User Interface: or or like that is grey and it would not be that expensive to have a little bit of metal No ? Marketing: And the buttons in the middle So do you think that is more of a three then ? Three four ? Industrial Designer: Four I think Well I do not Marketing: Well we have good reasons for it so we but we can still put a a four ? and final question did we stay true to our motto and put the fashion into electronics ? Current trends of fruits and veggies desire for sponginess","The team agreed that the prototype had a fancy look-and-feels once they did not choose the traditional ugly black and grey color but incorporated the company's color. Although, there were only push buttons and no LED display, the incorporation of the kinetic energy, making the device more durable and rubber material made it technologically innovative. Moreover, the team thought the device was easy to use and good looking but Project Manager suggested that the company logo could be smaller. Besides, the device's simplistic made it stand out and customers were willing to pay a little more for that and its good appearance. Last but not least, the device could match the operating behavior of the average user and the alarming function, a light would vibrate, added value to the device." "Project Manager: oh I guess looking at your own too and telling me which one you think we are using kinetic which is quite a large expense at three Euros we are using a regular chip it is cur it is double curved so its curved all around That is another three We are already at five we are using plastic and rubber so Good thing plastic is free we are at eight S User Interface: What about a special colour ? Are we using that ? Project Manager: I guess we should do it just for one kind So it is like special colour well we will have two colours right ? Well one colour for the case one colour for the buttons we have push button interface so that is inexpensive And we have a special colour for the button and we also have a special form And a special material Which puts us just barely under budget","Firstly, using kinetic was quite a large expense at three Euros. Secondly, in terms of the material used on the device, the team decided to use a combination of rubber and plastic to cut costs with one color for the case and one color for the buttons. Moreover, the push button interface was inexpensive so the team agreed to add a special form for the case. Lastly, ssthe team did not choose joystick, LED display or advanced chips, they were able to make the budget under control." "Project Manager: Awesome And back to our PowerPoint So we have Kay Yes we are So we need to do a product evaluation again which is probably I do not know A different extension of a Industrial Designer: Of the actual project rather than the product ? A project ? Is is Project Manager: because we are talking about leadership teamwork Industrial Designer: So wh how we actually went round about doing it Project Manager: Alright so Do you guys feel like there was room for creativity ? Industrial Designer: I think we were pushed I mean we were not really given a lot of time or materials to go about our design task So I think we could have done with a bit more time Project Manager: So it would be like need more time and materials But you were allowed m creativity ? I think so as like but you were supposed to have creativ Marketing: and the conceptual and functional Like we were very creative in in coming up with an idea I guess but m Industrial Designer: Well we were just limited by resources really and like if we had decided to use the LCD screen and like solar power backup and everything then we would not have been able to afford that Marketing: When we can down to it Industrial Designer: So that did limit creativity But The fruit and veg idea Project Manager: Leadership ? Is this me being like guys do you like me ? Marketing: Good leadership I think we stayed on task Industrial Designer: we did We have seeing as we have come out with what we intended A pro a product within the budget I think that is a sign of good leadership and also our personal coach helped us along the way so you know I think it is been fine Marketing: And the timing was good We never were pushed for time or sat around doing nothing so Industrial Designer: And project manager of course Project Manager: I think we worked great as a team ? Marketing: Was good teamwork I think we are wellsuited to our roles Project Manager: Alright how were our means ? We needed more Play Doh colours Industrial Designer: because that was all the red we had So even if we wanted to make a bigger prototype we would not have been able to User Interface: it c it might have been bigger Project Manager: But ever everything else was satisfactory ? Marketing: The computer programmes are good Industrial Designer: It could be really straightforward for the computer I think the only thing was having to remember to you know to tick the okays Marketing: I do not think there was anything Industrial Designer: but I think I was the only one who struggled with that User Interface: I am actually not sure if I have saved my presentations Marketing: They will probably still be there Project Manager: New ideas found I do not really know what that means Industrial Designer: Well I think we have all learnt stuff from each other Just about each different Got new ideas from each other Marketing: I am not sure new ideas found well I guess we really it we bounced off of each other which was cool Like based on marketing stuff and then you would say something about interface and User Interface: And we were a able to modify each others ideas to fit in with our areas of expertise Marketing: Oh does it have smart materials by the way ? Does it have smart materials ? Industrial Designer: Well mm did it come into the into User Interface: If if it if it Industrial Designer: I do not know if we counted that in the costs User Interface: If it can be afforded Project Manager: ? Well with that achieved our last slide is our closing slide Yes our costs are within budget It is evaluated generally positively And do not forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary in such a way that I have no idea","The team thought that the project manager showed good leadership and that was a must during the teamwork process. Besides, they had a really great project design experience and everyone had put efforts into the process and gave opinions to design a good remote control. After all, they have learned a lot from each other as well as the overall customers' tastes within the industry." "Project Manager: cats are sometimes very independent My parents had cats and they can mm decide for themselves what is best Now we have to get down to the nittygritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we are to sell it for twenty five Euros with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros That tells you something about how many we have to sell on an international scale would be an awful lot of these would be like what a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million the production is to only cost twelve and a half Euros per item Now if they cost twelve and a half you are selling it for twenty five you are making twelve and a half Euros each and we are to make a profit of fifty million that is t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? Marketing: I was just wondering if that is the If fifty percent is normal B I would think would be more like sixty percent But let me I have two thoughts One hundred fifty percent And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? Project Manager: Yes because our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know you got to know how many we are going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that Marketing: At twenty five Mmhmm that is Project Manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you are looking Marketing: So that is four million of them ? Project Manager: That is fifty million Euros In order to make fifty million Euros and you are only getting twelve and a half each Marketing: And if we make Mmhmm Project Manager: That is a lot of selling Two four To be fifty be four million You would have to sell four million","The preliminary aim of the profit was fifty million Euros. The setting price was twenty-five Euros each remote control, and therefore the profit was twelve and a half Euros per item. To reach the profit goal of fifty million, Marketing set a sales figure of four million." "Project Manager: cats are sometimes very independent My parents had cats and they can mm decide for themselves what is best Now we have to get down to the nittygritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold we are to sell it for twenty five Euros with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros That tells you something about how many we have to sell on an international scale would be an awful lot of these would be like what a hundred million of them to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million the production is to only cost twelve and a half Euros per item Now if they cost twelve and a half you are selling it for twenty five you are making twelve and a half Euros each and we are to make a profit of fifty million that is t can you do the maths and how many are we selling ? Marketing: I was just wondering if that is the If fifty percent is normal B I would think would be more like sixty percent But let me","The setting price of each remote control that Project Manager proposed was twenty-five, but Marketing had doubts about the profits. Marketing wasn't sure that if the mark-up of fifty percent is normal for a product, and preferred sixty percent." "Marketing: I have two thoughts One hundred fifty percent And and your question is how many do we have to sell ? Project Manager: Yes because our market is international and your problem is has to do with marketing of you know you got to know how many we are going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that Marketing: At twenty five Mmhmm that is Project Manager: To give you a pretty good idea of where you are looking Marketing: So that is four million of them ? Project Manager: That is fifty million Euros In order to make fifty million Euros and you are only getting twelve and a half each Marketing: And if we make Mmhmm Project Manager: That is a lot of selling Two four",Project Manager thought that setting the selling target was of high importance for a big international company making marketing plans including sales target. "Project Manager: ? Right Experience with a remote control Any of you use of remote control for a television or DVD or something ? You are both nodding Industrial Designer: That that that is the sorta product we are talking about one that will work for a in a home environment for a TVs and Project Manager: all three Well I have seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time but I also have heard about them not working well or not well coordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another User Interface: It is true that you always sit around you know you are sitting on your sofa and you want to change something there is five different remotes and one for the DVD and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else Project Manager: And they do not always talk to each other User Interface: But I presume this is t I presume this is just for television Project Manager: Are there any ideas for the remote ? What would it be for and what group would be be for ? We have to think about that one Marketing: We could make a Hello Kitty User Interface: I think one in b bright colours would be good Industrial Designer: I think one that works would be good Marketing: We could totally go for the Japanamation Well I mean there is also the cachet that the Japanese make great products Electrical their industrial design is very good User Interface: I think one that does not have lots of superfluous functions Like I have got one at home that has well apart from the obvious channels channel up channel down volume you know subtitles mute there is a lotta buttons that I have got no idea what they do like Marketing: Well that is a really good point because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate we tend to go to menus and then make choices you know so if it is like an volume button you know you can go in and say mute or or volume We do not need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down Mm We can make it smart like an iPod you know make everything menus","User Interface presumed that the remote control was only for the television, and suggested that the technical functions should be simple and removed the superfluous functions. They also suggested setting the theme of the remote control as Hello Kitty, and making it in bright colours." "User Interface: I think one that does not have lots of superfluous functions Like I have got one at home that has well apart from the obvious channels channel up channel down volume you know subtitles mute there is a lotta buttons that I have got no idea what they do like Marketing: Well that is a really good point because I think one of the things that being somewhat computer literate we tend to go to menus and then make choices you know so if it is like an volume button you know you can go in and say mute or or volume We do not need to have like the l the numbers if we also have channel up channel down Mm We can make it smart like an iPod you know make everything menus","User Interface argued that the simplicity of the remote control of high importance, which means superfluous functions such as subtitles and mute should be removed from the remote control and be controlled through the menu." "Project Manager: ? Right Experience with a remote control Any of you use of remote control for a television or DVD or something ? You are both nodding Industrial Designer: That that that is the sorta product we are talking about one that will work for a in a home environment for a TVs and Project Manager: all three Well I have seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time but I also have heard about them not working well or not well coordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another User Interface: It is true that you always sit around you know you are sitting on your sofa and you want to change something there is five different remotes and one for the DVD and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else Project Manager: And they do not always talk to each other User Interface: But I presume this is t I presume this is just for television",User Interface held the same opinion as Industrial Designer that different remote controls that were incompatible with each other brought inconvenience to users. User Interface still presumed that this remote control was only for television. "Industrial Designer: S to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is so it does kind of make sense Marketing: It kind of does make sense does not it because when we get into the end of meeting we are kind of talking about action and design as opposed to background Everything I have is kind of background Project Manager: we all ready to go ? Well how on the in this meeting then if we I will just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting And we decided on decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five and we decided that it was going to be nonrechargeable batterypowered that we are going to group our audiovisual and other functions into into those categories And I told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext ignoring everything except the TV and trying to incorporate the the corporate colour and slogan so that was the last meeting Is there anything have I forgotten anything ? so if we have the three presentations and then if you have anything to kind of that you know you are going to want to discuss maybe just make a note of it and we will have all the discussion at the end That might be a better idea this time And so if we start off with Andrew and then Craig and then David and then after that we will have to make some decisions about stuff right So if you want to take this Marketing: Why do not I get that ? Project Manager: Screwed in quite tightly what did how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? We did we say we were going to try maybe incorporate it but we had not made a definite decision on that ? Right Oh I should also point out that the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product So that is kind of the end result hopefully Marketing: alright so c is it function F eight ? Project Manager: Uhhuh Hopefully appear in a wee second Marketing: Come on I think it is working great s so let me just start this great So s move on Uhhuh oh where did it all go ? It is not good let me just see where I can find it This looks more like it I think I just opened up the template Sorry about that alright so let us have a look here so this was the method that I have taken basically what I want to do here before we get into it too far is I want to show you all the background information I have that I think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful And and then sorta g go through some of the way that I have dealt with that information and then sort of bring us all together into it to see sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision so I have tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us and then ide identify trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our p project plan that we have so far and then initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other other elements of the of the project Does that make sense tha that sort of strategy ? I thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do so that is why I suggested we get in this Project Manager: Aye a fair point definitely Marketing: so out of different figures and ratings ob of people in general consumers in general the number one thing that was found was that the br t television remote control a fancy look and feel and not it specified not a functional look or or feel b f f fancy however this is where we kind of have to be very I think creative about it Number two was that it be innovative so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary sort of functional bits to it and third priority for ease of use so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be quite user friendly while still having technology So it I will just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing is that I think what we should think about is how the about how the innovation contributes to the look and feel and not so much to the functionality of it For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something you know what I mean like or it is got something else to it that just seems innovative because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use So how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? Well that is I guess where we are going to go with this then there is the other aspect of the back the the market research I have here is on fashion style which as we have agreed is a priority top European fashion trend that I read about says there is this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables especially in clothes and furniture And when I first saw that I thought well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it or we get right into it or we completely steer away from it do you know what I mean ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics because I think what we are in what we are in is partly sort of home decor partly something like a computer so I think we might want to be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something I think that would be pushing it And then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle which is which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case So probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last years mode so if we try and really capitalise on that I think that will be in our favour So these this is the summary of everything style is number one thing in the in the market of who we are selling to innovative design technologys also a must in that it is seen it would be seen to be cutting edge but ease of use t has to be insured throughout That was like the number three thing And then at the end there are vibrant natural colours that is the way I interpreted it anyway softness in materials shape and function and so I have written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion Mac iPods something which is I would have to say very hightech ten gigabytes whatever but when you hold it in your hand there is like no buttons You know what a Mac iPod is ? I am thinking however Mac iPod is sort of last years because it is very hard and sort of glassy and glossy so I am thinking if we imagine that we are taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we are then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have and then so this is w with all that information what I am what I am suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas and as we get into more the more techni like sort of production side of things that we think about shape materials and themes or series that go throughout Sort of like a I do not know like we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all that we agree on sorta like a marketing identity Does that make sense ? So so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kind of get us thinking along those lines like lemon lime I do not know green colours pe whatever it is just an idea because I am thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture shape colours things like that Like the ones the ones which I am most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like like lemon or something like that you know something which is like you see a lot in in other areas Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and So anyway it is just just an idea I am thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like like something to do with like lighting within it Like you know just within the simple sense when you pick up a phone and touch a button it lights up q usually the buttons light up How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so Anyway those are that is all I have but hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into","Marketing presented on market trends and suggested strategies including innovation in a fancy look and feel of the remote control, the European fashion theme in fruit and vegetable shapes as well as a soft and spongy material trend." Marketing: however this is where we kind of have to be very I think creative about it Number two was that it be innovative so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary sort of functional bits to it and third priority for ease of use so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be quite user friendly while still having technology So it I will just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing is that I think what we should think about is how the about how the innovation contributes to the look and feel and not so much to the functionality of it For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something you know what I mean like or it is got something else to it that just seems innovative because obviously the thing that the message here is ease of use So how do you make innovation make something more more easy to use ? Well that is I guess where we are going to go with this then there is the other aspect of the back the the market research I have here is on fashion style which as we have agreed is a priority top European fashion trend that I read about says there is this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables especially in clothes and furniture And when I first saw that I thought well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it or we get right into it or we completely steer away from it do you know what I mean ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend but we want to think also about the fact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics because I think what we are in what we are in is partly sort of home decor partly something like a computer so I think we might want to be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something I think that would be pushing it,"Marketing mentioned that market research emphasized technology innovation which was the ease of use in the functionality. So Marketing suggested when they focused on the trend of fruit and vegetable themes, they should know how to fit in with something which was not specifically electronics and how to quickly create a remote in fruit shape." Marketing: You know what a Mac iPod is ? I am thinking however Mac iPod is sort of last years because it is very hard and sort of glassy and glossy so I am thinking if we imagine that we are taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we are then making it s more of like a more of like a comfortable type of or more of like a maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have and then so this is w with all that information what I am what I am suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas and as we get into more the more techni like sort of production side of things that we think about shape materials and themes or series that go throughout Sort of like a I do not know like we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all that we agree on sorta like a marketing identity Does that make sense ? So so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kind of get us thinking along those lines like lemon lime I do not know green colours pe whatever it is just an idea because I am thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their what people associate this them with in terms of texture shape colours things like that Like the ones the ones which I am most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like like lemon or something like that you know something which is like you see a lot in in other areas Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and So anyway it is just just an idea I am thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly into something which is which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like like something to do with like lighting within it Like you know just within the simple sense when you pick up a phone and touch a button it lights up q usually the buttons light up How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so Anyway those are that is all I have,"Because Marketing recommended the group took some features of Mac or iPod and made it a more comfortable type when associating people in terms of texture, shape, and colours. Marketing also suggested they could incorporate gimmicky features that buttons would light up when touching the button." "Project Manager: let us just go right back to the marketing ideas for a start and just giving an id idea on the time we have got about fifteen minutes to play with at most So so just t to bear in mind that the ultimate goal of this meeting is to reach an decision on the the the concepts of the product So back to your idea about incorporating the idea of like fruit and veg and the corporate colour and things like that I mean what does everybody think about Does anybody have any ideas of about how we can fit all that in together ? I mean that is kind of the user interface type of thing what are your thoughts on that ? User Interface: I think we could go for like maybe not a p a fruit shape but a very sort of curvy type shape you could have the same sort of texture and colour as a fruit Project Manager: So maybe do y are we thinking something that like s could sit in your hand comfortably or do you th you would hold onto comfortably or User Interface: probably something that s sits in your hand comfortably sort of feels right in your hand Project Manager: So something quite curvy ? right Colourwise I mean you made a re was it you or I can not remember who made the point about how if you have a nice bright colour you will not lose it was that Industrial Designer: I think he made that Project Manager: about how if you have a bright colour you will not lose it so much and when the corporate colour is yellow I mean maybe we could think about about the colour of the whole product being yellow I do not know And then obviously the the materials when it has anybody got like an overall picture in their mind about what what might work ? That is all Marketing: Well I mean I am thinking that what we need to do is have something that kind of unifies a lot of the different concepts and if we think that what we are w our number one marketing motive is the look and feel So for the look and feel to seem coherent and not just sorta bits and bits and pieces of of concept and technology or or whatever or fashion then we should have it kind of come back to one thing that we kind of all sorta can visualize maybe what we could do is t th think about a concept which touches b back to the on the the colour you said company colour yellow I mean if we think of something like I was saying also lime and lemon you know what can we come up with something where we we try and associate it with with like the series We just come up with something like that we kind of use it as a theme to inspire the Industrial Designer: Is there a particular shape that you are interested in ? Like does marketing have any research on does it need to be long ? Does it need with a square thing wha Project Manager: Oh you know like in circular in shape or Industrial Designer: because that will n help narrow down the choice of Like fruit I am thinking fruits in my head but that is tacky Project Manager: Because I I I was kind of thinking about as well you know how you get these shock resistant mobile phones and they are plastic but then also have like rubber on the outside and it kind of feels it feels kind of warmer to the touch It feels a bit more comfortable and maybe we could incorporate plastic and rubber into it And then then we could have curved shapes because wood or titanium it is going to have to be boxy and rectangular and I think we might be moving away from that you know so Well I am do we really want it in like the shape of a lemon or Marketing: No no no not at all Project Manager: no I do not think we do either Marketing: It is more more just that we we think about like what it is we are trying to achieve so and then we have one one sorta theme that we stick with Do you know what I mean ? Project Manager: so thoughts about the actual shape of the thing User Interface: I would quite like a sort of snowman type shape so a p sort of larger bit sits in your hand and then you got maybe another bubble at the top for just any other function you need Project Manager: Uhhuh That is quite a distinctive shape so should we go with that ? Marketing: can we like to and wha like do you have a Project Manager: Do you want to draw it on the board ? Marketing: Can you like just t we can visualize it User Interface: something like that you got two groups there maybe it could fold up and you get a third group inside Project Manager: Ooh that would be good User Interface: or you have volume controls about there Project Manager: So call it the snowmanshape trademark that is cool and I mean colourwise what does everybody think ? I think it is quite important to get yellow in there somewhere I mean do you want the whole thing yellow maybe like yellow and white do you want something User Interface: So I reckon it would look quite nice if we just had this here had a sorta background yellow and then have sort of a nice bold colour for the buttons Project Manager: cool and also I mean how are we going to incorporate the slogan in ? The fact that it talks to you I mean it might be quite cool if when you first start using it it says what is it putting fashion into electronics or something I do not know Or when you like or if you turn it off or something if it can speak if it could actually say the slogan it might be a bit more powerful than just having it written on it somewhere User Interface: I think that might scare me Project Manager: I d I d any thoughts on that at all ? User Interface: I think that would probably scare me You turn it on your control possessed s Project Manager: I know unless an a I mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate an LCD display where would we put that ? Would we put that on the inside or Industrial Designer: Do we need an LCD display ? What what is the functionality of that ? Project Manager: It is bound to increase the cost of it a lot I would have thought Industrial Designer: but the question is what are we using it Marketing: What would it achieve ? Industrial Designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? Putting in lights is cheap but putting in an LCD panel just to make it glow is a bit of a Marketing: Well LC well I would when you used to mention the LCD I would think I wonder what that would be about And the th the thing I could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with listings So as you scroll through because we said we might have a jog dial so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is Industrial Designer: Mmhmm I think that will be a problem because we do not have an input device to get the listings into it so it is a bit nuts to get the Monday Tuesday Wednesday you know Project Manager: Mm oh that is true So so no need for an LCD display ? Industrial Designer: I I am not saying there is no need for an LCD display but it is what is what what would it tell the user Project Manager: I think that would make it very complex Industrial Designer: because the LCD tends to be an output as as opposed to an input so does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? We have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? Project Manager: I do not know if there is really I would say no need for a talkback does anybody disagree with that ? Industrial Designer: You could put a game on it When the TV dies you can play with the remote control Project Manager: so you are going to have the three different sets of of functionalities I mean do you want to group them into s head of the snowman body of the snowman inside of the snowman is that what you are thinking ? User Interface: well I think the advanced ones the the ones you do not usually use could be hid inside B I think the we had were fairly basic ones they would have to go on the the front somewhere Project Manager: right what else do you need to talk about ? Marketing: Well i I was just Industrial Designer: Where would you physically position the buttons ? I think that that has some impact on on on many things maybe you want to draw onto the Project Manager: So I am just going to pop this in here because I have a slide about decision making which I would forgotten about Oh sh God we have got five minutes back we go energy what do you think that is suggesting we are how we are powering the thing ? I really like the idea of this kinetic thing where you would have the backup of the battery but have have kinetic power I mean what does anybody think about that ? Marketing: I have had kinetic things before and the the the one issue we need to keep in mind with them is that you are committing the user to moving it Industrial Designer: No like I said we have a h hybrid kind of thing so it is not going to charge the battery it is just Marketing: I mean just it is just worth pointing out because like I have I have known I have known people to have kinetic watches that they wear all the time and it is just like magic because it is always powered and there is no battery I have also known people to have things like like a jewellery watch they wear from time to time and they eventually just say it is just too much of a nuisance because I do not wear it all the time Like remote control is similar you are away on vacation I do not know whatever you something and it just starts to get worn down Project Manager: Well I suppose that if you are if you are away and you are not using it then you are not using any power either Marketing: So we should think about Project Manager: So you would have the battery as the kind of to keep it ticking over idea I am really sorry we are going to have to wrap up quite quickly we do not have as much time as I thought so I think that is what energy is referring to here Chip on print is that that is an industrial design thing is it David ? as for the case kind of discussed that Marketing: And this size here I would suggest this be small like quite small Project Manager: I know we are going to have like rubber buttons that feel kind of Marketing: just a a lot of the I mean one of the things running through my mind right now I realise we are being efficient to wrap up the meeting and have lots of decisions made but we are leaning quite a bit to the side of being lowtech rubber buttons plastic frame it is almost like we are reproducing the same old remote control that is out there Should we think about how we are actually getting this hightech user friendly theme like what is it that we are you we are using to to achieve those goals ? Project Manager: Could have things like backlighting the buttons and stuff like that Marketing: Like so so backlighting that would be good Industrial Designer: Or even a clear case you know a a glowing a a glowing yellow type case where the yellow is showable Project Manager: Aye that would be a good idea Industrial Designer: but in the dark it sort of it is alive in in a slight subtle way Project Manager: S so like cur slightly transparent case so it is yellow like tinted yellow but you can maybe see through it Marketing: that would be really good Industrial Designer: Or or there might be a light running through it like a mouse Project Manager: Is that what you mean ? Industrial Designer: You know you have cordless mice and they do not eat that much power right So the power the battery in that sense maybe you have one or two stratig strategically placed lights Marketing: Sure they they emanate a light through it Industrial Designer: but because the case is transparent so it gives it a little bit of a glow does not make it freaky Marketing: mmhmm and then the other thing that we we are s we have committed ourselves to achieving is simplicity and so I am thinking maybe should we try and think about having something like some kind of an innovative concept about how the the volume and the channels are controlled because that is the main thing people will f want to do Could we use like a jog dial like a nice just sort of round somewhere on it where you just roll it ? Industrial Designer: The question is when you are rolling it how do you want to roll it ? Do you want them to roll it like that ? Do you want them to roll it like that ? Because in a mouse your hands in a position to roll it whereas the other thing about having it jog dial this way it tends to get moved accidentally Project Manager: if you are holding it in your hand you could you could do that could not you ? Marketing: Well why do not we do it like a mouse then ? Project Manager: If you are holding it in your hand you could Industrial Designer: That is a very unnatural motion to Can you imagine you have to scroll a lot it might work for volume and maybe some of the brightness controls and stuff like that but not for channels right If you have a Telewest box you have got like you do not have to buy all the channels you have about fifty channels can you imagine trying to and I do not think having that you know too quick too slow kin it is confusing to the User Interface: Well but then for for skipping a large amount of channels you do have to to skip the channel button the number part Industrial Designer: I do not know But users tend to tend to want to use that and once they lose out on the user experience they are like Because that is becomes the most accessible thing in front of Marketing: But that is not a bad thing is it ? Because when you think about it the alternative is to go push the button Jog dials are much easier than that Project Manager: right well would not it we do need to make a decision on whether we want to incorporate a jog dial in nice and quickly I am all for them actually I think they are quite you know th very quick to m to use So does anybody oppose the idea of of incorporating one into the design at all ? No And the other thing was can we think of any way of getting the slogan into this thing ? Marketing: like I mean if we if if we keep coming back to this board here I would not be surprised if we could take this idea imagine that I do not know that it is within the shape of the hand it is quite small Project Manager: Uhhuh ooh we really got to wrap up Marketing: It is small and that we have got like the the l slogan somewhere like on the casing at the side Project Manager: well if we can do that great Marketing: well I mean is not that what we just h said said we s just have to decide now ? Project Manager: let us let us try and get the slogan on there and Industrial Designer: So you want to expand the shape of the Marketing: And then like a jo And then like a jog dial somewhere that fits in with the shape of it like I do not know like here in with the Industrial Designer: That that might have one problem in terms of in terms of whether you are left handed or you are right handed you might be locking yourself in Marketing: It would get bumped it is does not really fit with your hand Or maybe just fit it in like down the middle here Industrial Designer: Could I just could I just jump in and suggest something quickly ? Project Manager: Right I am going to have to I am really going to have to hurry you on here because we are we are actually over time is there anything anybodys unsure about ? Just for in closing just the next meetings going to be in thirty minutes and so you can see in the screen here what each of you are going to hopefully be doing I know that the designers are going to be working with Playdoh on that So that will be that will be good and I will get the the minutes up as soon as possible Anything at all you think we have not discussed that we need to ? Is everybody kind of happy about what they are going to be doing ? Industrial Designer: I think one thing would be the jog dial because that is going to have quite a big impact on the thing Marketing: I think the jog dial you know it just after you drew that what if it was flat and you just spun it Industrial Designer: that is what I was thinking the a slide because then you you do not have to put the hand I think incorporating a logo is quite straight forward There is lots of space for it Project Manager: That is kind of a design thing that you guys can can discuss Industrial Designer: but it is also a a marketing and a function Marketing: and materials we sorta said we would do plastic and rubber did not we and I think maybe we should try and stay away from just the big protruding rubber buttons because that would just be so standard Project Manager: To make something flush with the case ? Marketing: Something a bit more flush or maybe have rubber incorporated into the case as well so that it has and also t plastic I have seen can get really textured so you can get plastics that actually feel soft in your hand Project Manager: Sp kind of grippy ? Marketing: They feel kind of like you get pens now and then that you would think that they were rubber but they are not they are actually just plastic that is textured kind of a little bit like Project Manager: I am going to have to I am going to have to call this to a close because we are way over time So that is really good like we have s had much to talk about that pretty much run out of time to do so So off you go and design stuff Industrial Designer: You got to choose first No we are kidding can I just swipe your power cable I do not think it matters let me I am going to pull everybody out first and then put in whoever needs to be left It is you Argh This is a real hassle and a oops I am going to take the microphones because it is too lazy t take them off again Cool","The group discussed the final remote concepts after three presentations. Therefore, they decided to have a small-sized remote with the speaker, the power with the chip on print, a transparent case, and rubber incorporated into the case. However, they would not go for an LCD partly because they needed an input device instead of output and the cost would be added." "Project Manager: I know unless an a I mean if you also would that work if we wanted to incorporate an LCD display where would we put that ? Would we put that on the inside or Industrial Designer: Do we need an LCD display ? What what is the functionality of that ? Project Manager: It is bound to increase the cost of it a lot I would have thought Industrial Designer: but the question is what are we using it Marketing: What would it achieve ? Industrial Designer: what would we what would we achieve from it ? Putting in lights is cheap but putting in an LCD panel just to make it glow is a bit of a Marketing: Well LC well I would when you used to mention the LCD I would think I wonder what that would be about And the th the thing I could see it helping with would be if it was somehow connected with listings So as you scroll through because we said we might have a jog dial so as you scroll through your stations you can y it actually tells you what it is Industrial Designer: Mmhmm I think that will be a problem because we do not have an input device to get the listings into it so it is a bit nuts to get the Monday Tuesday Wednesday you know Project Manager: Mm oh that is true So so no need for an LCD display ? Industrial Designer: I I am not saying there is no need for an LCD display but it is what is what what would it tell the user Project Manager: I think that would make it very complex Industrial Designer: because the LCD tends to be an output as as opposed to an input so does the remote control need to talk back to the user ? We have the option of the speaker as well the sa the same thing goes for the speaker is there a need for the remote control to to talk back ? Project Manager: I do not know if there is really I would say no need for a talkback does anybody disagree with that ? Industrial Designer: You could put a game on it When the TV dies you can play with the remote control","When discussing the LCD functionality, the group found that it was not necessary to have it because they had the speaker and no need for a talk-back for the remote. Also, the LCD tended to be output as opposed to an input and it would be added to the cost of the remote, so the group agreed not to go for an LCD." "Project Manager: Cheers Hardly what I would call the best drawing in the world but it will do for now Also not quite as feared as your average tiger but cats are one of my favourite animals they are very independent they are snotty as hell at the best of times and what can you say you got to love those qualities in an animal Right I think we have all managed to master the whiteboard there by looks of it so on to it Project finance As you can see twelve point five Euros per unit That is not a terrible lot as far as I am aware and we are hoping to sell them for twenty five If we are aiming for fifty million Euros we are going to have to be selling an awful lot of them Marketing: Oh that was profiting that was an amount so that is the amount made Project Manager: Well fifty million and if you are making twelve point five Euros on each one then awful lot need to be sold Now we better actually just get on with the the meat of the project So I am going to guess that we have all used remote controls Any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? User Interface: Well one thing I am aware of is th there at the sort of v very high price end of the market there is there is a them emerging market for sort of touch screen LCD remotes that can be programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models so you get the sort of you get you you can redesign the interface to your own needs you can programme in macros and you get a much greater degree I mean you get in these sort of three in one five in one whatevers but you can get integration between the different the the the different the different things that it is designed to control to a much greater extent and you can have one you know one macro to turn the you know turn the TV to the right channel get the re rewind the tape in the VCR and get it to play once it is rewound for instance b it occurs to me there might be a niche for for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design And therefore putting it into a well much lower price bracket Project Manager: tha that is true with the price range we are looking at going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our But you think again something to control multiple units in a simple fashion User Interface: I mean I would not like to say you g I mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units but something that could operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion Some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for running macros Project Manager: Would the the idea something along the lines of one on button would turn on say the video recorder the TV maybe the sound system as well all in one go is that kind of User Interface: For instance let us say oh oh or you know you pr you press say the play button for the DVD player and it turns the TV on and onto the right channel as well Project Manager: that sounds like a a good strong idea Any takes on this ? Marketing: Well I have noticed that gaming c is becoming quite popular with television when I was younger we used to e play games using our cable using the cable subscribed the cable providers but our remote controls would get worn out really easily and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar keypad for playing games So perhaps one that was more specialised for game playing or interactive television They they have recently brought out this new remote control for people to set their favourite channels or to record things Instead of people entering in what time things start you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins and slide another bar to say what time it ends you know that is Project Manager: I have heard I have seen the barcode design before Marketing: it is it is taken out the Y you do not have to be really clever to use a remote control I think for gaming you know you want you want some big buttons for up down left and right shoot you want to be able to change angles in interactive television so you need buttons to change the television angle the camera angles and stuff like that","Project Manager informed the team of their financial target, which was 50 million Euros. Each 25-Euro remote control would make a profit of 12.5 Euros. The team members had many ideas on the remote control design. User Interface recommended an integrating remote control for several different devices. Marketing spotted a niche in the game market and thus suggested adopting a bar-code design." "Project Manager: Now we better actually just get on with the the meat of the project So I am going to guess that we have all used remote controls Any ideas of where you think a new remote control could go into this market ? User Interface: Well one thing I am aware of is th there at the sort of v very high price end of the market there is there is a them emerging market for sort of touch screen LCD remotes that can be programmed in m much more sophisticated ways than sort of conventional models so you get the sort of you get you you can redesign the interface to your own needs you can programme in macros and you get a much greater degree I mean you get in these sort of three in one five in one whatevers but you can get integration between the different the the the different the different things that it is designed to control to a much greater extent and you can have one you know one macro to turn the you know turn the TV to the right channel get the re rewind the tape in the VCR and get it to play once it is rewound for instance b it occurs to me there might be a niche for for a remote that aimed towards some of that sort of functionality but using a just conventional push button design And therefore putting it into a well much lower price bracket Project Manager: tha that is true with the price range we are looking at going for a touch screen would probably be possibly out of our But you think again something to control multiple units in a simple fashion User Interface: I mean I would not like to say you g I mean you get ones that you can switch between multiple units but something that could operate between multiple units in a more integrated fashion Some and ideally something into which it would have some at least limited facility for running macros Project Manager: Would the the idea something along the lines of one on button would turn on say the video recorder the TV maybe the sound system as well all in one go is that kind of User Interface: For instance let us say oh oh or you know you pr you press say the play button for the DVD player and it turns the TV on and onto the right channel as well Project Manager: that sounds like a a good strong idea Any takes on this ?","User Interface initially believed that there would be an emerging market for the touch screen remote control which could be programmed in a sophisticated way. Users could redesign their remote controls to their own needs. Remote controls originally designed for different devices could now be integrated. Project Manager, however, reminded User Interface about the budget issue. User Interface then admitted that a conventional push button would be a better choice than a touch screen." "Marketing: Well I have noticed that gaming c is becoming quite popular with television when I was younger we used to e play games using our cable using the cable subscribed the cable providers but our remote controls would get worn out really easily and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar keypad for playing games So perhaps one that was more specialised for game playing or interactive television They they have recently brought out this new remote control for people to set their favourite channels or to record things Instead of people entering in what time things start you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins and slide another bar to say what time it ends you know that is Project Manager: I have heard I have seen the barcode design before Marketing: it is it is taken out the Y you do not have to be really clever to use a remote control I think for gaming you know you want you want some big buttons for up down left and right shoot you want to be able to change angles in interactive television so you need buttons to change the television angle the camera angles and stuff like that",Marketing noticed that gaming on TV was getting popular and hoped that the new remote control could become a specialized keypad for game players. Marketing desired buttons that would not get worn out too easily for the new remote control. A bar-code design was desirable as well. "Project Manager: we are beginning to run out of time now so we have got a couple of ideas we can we will have to work fast alright as you can see we have got thirty minutes until the next meeting so we will have to try and decide on some of the basic functionality how the user interface might work that will be a key aspect especially if the idea of some kind of macros facility because you have to program it you have to have a lot of response back or at least some kind And we are going to maybe n try and have to figure out what the user wants yes right Has anybody got anything they would like to add at this stage anything they think that might have been missed so far ? Industrial Designer: Well when you are talking about gaming and stuff do you think they should have some sort of stick on it rather than buttons ? Like control pads you know of games but or is that a bit ridiculous ? Project Manager: I I do not see why not almost everybody is probably used to a console by now and all of them incorporate small keypads on them in fact even the mobile phones these days are beginning to use them as well so it is probably an interface that most people are used to and that could allow n easy navigation used as a joystick as well User Interface: Mmhmm The other key feature that that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand But of course al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive sha shape for it overall Project Manager: small stylish and something that is just a little different User Interface: mmhmm Something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway Project Manager: That is definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily I would I would have hoped so anyway right I would say we finish this one up we get started I will get in I will write up what we have kind of quickly done and I will get that out to everybody ? as far as I am aware we leave the microphones here unless we get told otherwise and just take the laptops with us","When discussing the basic functionality, the team agreed that it was the most important to meet the user requirements. Industrial Designer suggested that the team could consider incorporating a keypad for the better game experience. User Interface went on making a contribution. An ergonomic curve design was recommended by User Interface and appreciated by Project Manager, for it would make the remote control look more stylish." "Marketing: Well I have noticed that gaming c is becoming quite popular with television when I was younger we used to e play games using our cable using the cable subscribed the cable providers but our remote controls would get worn out really easily and the remote control was not a great kind of keyboar keypad for playing games So perhaps one that was more specialised for game playing or interactive television They they have recently brought out this new remote control for people to set their favourite channels or to record things Instead of people entering in what time things start you simply stri slide a bar to say what time it begins and slide another bar to say what time it ends you know that is Project Manager: I have heard I have seen the barcode design before Marketing: it is it is taken out the Y you do not have to be really clever to use a remote control I think for gaming you know you want you want some big buttons for up down left and right shoot you want to be able to change angles in interactive television so you need buttons to change the television angle the camera angles and stuff like that","Marketing desired to design self-intuitive buttons for game players. Industrial Designer expressed a preference for a game control keypad rather than big separate buttons. Project Manager accepted the latter suggestion, for keypads on consoles were common and user-friendly nowadays, so it would also be feasible to incorporate one on the remote control. Besides, Project Manager pointed out that a keypad would allow easier navigation and be used as a joystick." "User Interface: Mmhmm The other key feature that that would be a good idea built into it is t is is to make something you know fairly sort of ergonomic something that just fits fits as comfortably as possible into the hand But of course al al also allows for the possibility of a more sort of slightly unconventional or attractive sha shape for it overall Project Manager: small stylish and something that is just a little different User Interface: mmhmm Something sort of sort of sl slightly sort of biomorphic in form which it would need to be to sort of conform to the shape of the hand more efficiently anyway Project Manager: That is definitely something that we should be able to do quite easily I would I would have hoped so anyway right I would say we finish this one up we get started I will get in I will write up what we have kind of quickly done and I will get that out to everybody ? as far as I am aware we leave the microphones here unless we get told otherwise and just take the laptops with us","According to ergonomics, the remote control was expected to fit as comfortable as possible into the hand. In addition, User Interface hoped that the remote control could have an unconventional and attractive shape. A small and stylish curve was User Interface's final choice to make the remote control look more unique." "Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Llyr I think it is important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals But in some cases schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention but we would want to—in challenge advisers discussions in schools—we would want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals So for instance if I give you an example in your own region Llyr : at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham if you look at that primary school in Wrexham their results for freeschoolmeal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their nonfreeschoolmeal counterparts So there is no differentiation in those results One of the things that they have used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school So that is a universal thing that they have trained all the teachers in but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals So if you are familiar with the concept of a growth mindset it is about really challenging learners to think that I can do things If sometimes I fail I pick myself up I am more resilient Now that has been as I said trained to all the teachers in the school—it is an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the freeschoolmeal children has been even greater and now they are at the same level So that is the important distinction Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals but sometimes a school will employ a wholeschool approach to train their staff for instance and that then has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals So growth mindset it may be attachment disorder training for staff for instance where we know it is of benefit to everybody but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students With regard to more able and talented you know Llyr that this is an area of concern for me generally within the Welsh education system that we have not been particularly good at identifying supporting and driving attainment for those children I am absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential whatever the potential of that child is including more able and talented And again I will give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire : a window on the world bus again paid for by schools I do not know if you are aware of it Llyr Gruffydd AM: We have heard about that Kirsty Williams AM: Oh you have heard about it well it is a really good example the window on the world And again that is very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are more able and talented who are eligible for PDG those experiences and to really push them So yes I am absolutely clear that PDG should not just be seen to be getting individuals to the average For those children who are more able and talented it should be used to support them—","According to Kirsty Williams, when it comes to individual interventions, those individual interventions of PDG should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals; but in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention. One of the things that they've used PDG for is the focus on the concept of growth mindset in school, a universal thing that they've trained all the teachers in. There are some other ways to drive the potential of talented and able children, like the example of ""a window on the world bus"" paid for by schools." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: So are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure really of identifying which pupils to target ? Kirsty Williams AM: Llyr in the absence of anything better I will be the first person to say that maybe it is not as absolutely focused but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need I think it is probably the best that we have got at present And we will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways We have to be mindful Some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands so if we look at the rollout of universal credit for instance we have got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need going forward We have not had any additional resource as a result of this but we are very mindful that potentially this has an impact going forward And officials are working all of the time I must say in conjunction with the department in England to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward but before I make any decisions I want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that","According to Kirsty Williams, it's probably the best that they've got at present, and will continue to have discussions with local government about whether there are different ways. Officials are working all the time in conjunction with the department in England, to understand their thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward, but before I make any decisions, I want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you If we can go on then to talk about some of the practical uses of the PDG you write in your written paper that the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions on how to use it But Estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of the PDG Given that we have had it now for six years would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well to flip it on its head the vast majority of schools as identified by Estyn are using this money to good effect So that is the way I like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well What Estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link here to leadership within individual schools and as you will be aware leadership improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the Welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission Of course that is being developed in a different work stream I think what is fair to say is that the use of PDG is evolving over time I think we are seeing increasingly more and more schools understanding how best to deploy that money for best effect for students So if we are honest when PDG first started I think in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children because they would never thought about tracking these children they did not have systems in place to look at the performance of these children and to have a system in place So we have moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for FSM children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning We are also seeing from Estyn that actually in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works Estyn says that PDG is probably the best example of schools following tried and tested and evidencebased interventions to deploy the money But clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be and again we come back to the decision I have made to appoint regional PDG advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach We are in the discussions that I have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage looking for very clear evidence of schools using the Sutton Trust toolkit and we could have a discussion about whether that is the right thing because that is on my mind too But we want to see schools demonstrating their evidence base and if they are not if a school is not doing that so demonstrate to us why you have made those decisions and crucially what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actually making a difference for your individual pupils So if you are moving away from tried and tested interventions what we know works if you are doing something different with your money you need to justify that and you need to explain how you are going to demonstrate impact But I think what we are seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the PDG develops and as our understanding of our schooltoschool working in our selfimproving school system also develops I think we are seeing better usage of the money year on year Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Llyr on this","As identified by Estyn, most schools are using this money to good effect. When PDG first started,in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking children, because they had never thought about tracking these children, they didn't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children and to have a system in place. Now they have moved from spending money on the infrastructure around support for FSM children into actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning. And they have appointed regional PDG advisers to better deploy the fund." "Mark Reckless AM: Cabinet Secretary how would you assess the impact of PDG on attendance and hopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think what is important to note is that as Estyn have themselves said over the period of the last inspection report we have seen improvements in attendance but I do think we need to again look at how PDG can support this particular agenda And as always in the Welsh education system there are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this Ysgol y Preseli in Pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they have deployed their money Forgive me I can not off the top of my head remember the name of the primary school I visited again in north Wales where the school has proactively used this money and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day and they actually have a walking bus They call at homes for children and they walk the children to the breakfast club So they are proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are in the classrooms because the teacher said We recognised we had a problem with attendance We tried a variety of means of improving that but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staff out and they create that walking bus and they walk the children into school They say that they know that for some of those children because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in they probably would not be in school if it was not for that proactive approach So we are looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance because although again there are examples of good practice there is still a between the attendance of freeschoolmeal pupils and nonfreeschoolmeal pupils And of course we can have the best curriculum in the world with really highquality teaching but unless the children are in the classes then we are not going to make the difference for them Whilst that differential exists then it is going to be hard to close the attainment for those children Mark Reckless AM: I was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more who have pretty full attendance was only 35 per cent for freeschoolmeal children at level 4 compared to 60 per cent for nonfreeschoolmeal pupils It still is an extraordinary difference My colleague here showed me I think last week a graph showing the link between attendance and attainment in particular When people were absent a lot of the— As I am sure you are aware there is a huge connection What more can PDG do to deal with it ? In the example you give I can see how a school with an awful lot of freeschoolmeal children could do that but a lot of the freeschoolmeal children are actually in schools that do not have that high a proportion of free school meals where it would be much more challenging to bring in that type of initiative Kirsty Williams AM: Yes indeed and I think it gets more challenging the older the children get I think it is more difficult to find interventions that are successful higher up so key stage 4 So you can do a walking bus with little ones can not you but I do not suppose your average 15 or 16yearold is going to take very kindly to that So you do need a different approach to that But again we see in Ysgol y Preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around as you quite rightly say the linkage between attendance and attainment and really work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance : what is going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school and what more can the school do to address those situations But you are absolutely right there is more that we need to do to address this particular agenda of attainment I do not know if there is anything extra you wanted to add Steve","Over the period of the last inspection report, they have seen improvements in attendance, but still need to look at again how PDG can support this particular agenda. There are some excellent examples of how schools use the money to address this, some schools send the staff out and create walking buses, so that they walk the children into the school. Despite these good measures, there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils. It gets more challenging the older the children get." "Kirsty Williams AM: Yes So if you look at it—with the usual caveats about whether you can make direct comparisons on level 2 plus between the exams the year before and the exams that we had last summer—on the face of it the has increased I think what is important to recognise Hefin is a direction of travel I am sure we all want to because I want to have a discussion about why children on free school meals were less resilient in the exam system last year But if we look at the period that we have been employing PDG over that period we have seen a narrowing of the I think what is quite stark if we think about it— So if we look at where we started from : in 2009 one in five children on free school meals got level 2 plus—one in five—by 2016 we had got that down to one in three Obviously there is still a way to go but Sir Alasdair who knows about these things says that that is a significant improvement Last year we got some challenges We need to understand why that happened but I do think it is— Hefin David AM: Why do you think ? Kirsty Williams AM: Why do I think ? What I do think is there is no one answer There is no one answer to this I think we could look at and we can have discussions around the move from BTEC to science GCSEs I think we have supplied figures to the committee about the significant change in the number of children on free school meals who were not doing a single science GCSE and are now doing science GCSEs We can look at the unintended consequences of literature Again we have supplied figures Where children have done language and literature whether that be through the medium of English or through the medium of Welsh there is more resilience So it is that exposure to literacy in all its forms that I think could potentially make a difference So I think there is no one answer to why freeschoolmeal children were not so resilient last year We continue to have discussions with Qualifications Wales to get a better understanding of this At my next ministerial policy board in May we will be doing a deep dive into this particular subject Hefin David AM: So to what extent would exam boards be responsible for lack of grade stability ? Kirsty Williams AM: It could be one of the contributory factors What I think is important is that there is no one single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children Hefin David AM: Will you be speaking to the exam boards about this and raising concerns ? Kirsty Williams AM: I have written to Qualifications Wales we have had discussions about it but I have asked them to formally submit evidence ahead of my policy board for May where as I said we will be doing a formal deepdive discussion across the department about these issues But again Hefin what we have got to be clear on is—while we look at overall factors you know our overall national statistic—we did see some schools last year whose FSM performance was better than it had been the year before So what was it in those schools that enabled those children to do really well whereas in other schools the performance was different ? Even in individual cities you can see a huge variety of performance So take Cardiff and Swansea our two biggest cities You have got schools in those cities with comparative levels of free school meals So you could have really highperforming schools with a very small number of the cohort on free school meals The difference between those performances in a single city—so that is the same local education authority and the same regional consortium—you can see a massive change There is one school I can talk to : their freeschoolmeal performance is 88 per cent A similar school in the same city with the same proportion of children on free school meals their performance is down in the 20 per cents So I think what is important is that we can not draw broadbrush conclusions For me the challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well We have got one school in Swansea their FSM performance at GCSE level 2 outperforms nonFSM pupils","According to Kirsty Williams, there is no specific answer. There's no single reason why there seems to be less resilience in this cohort of children. They think that they can't draw broad-brush conclusions. The challenge is to go into individual schools and understand what was happening in that particular school that ensured that their children did really well. They continue to have discussions with Qualifications Wales to get a better understanding of this, and in May, they'll be doing a deep dive into this particular subject." "Mark Reckless AM: I think my questions are first but Michelle please do correct me if you were planning to come in before The PDG for lookedafter children does not quite seem to have the degree of visibility as the PDG for the freeschoolmeals I think we had the MORIWISERD survey—only 15 per cent of primary schools and 23 per cent of secondary schools were aware that PDG was targeted at lookedafter children I just wonder—can you clarify on the record here what is the role of schools with PDG for lookedafter children as compared to the regional consortia in this field ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think it is absolutely fair to say that most awareness around PDG is around free school meals There is less awareness around the availability of PDG to support lookedafter children I think that is probably in the nature of the cohort so there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after So I think that is part of the explanation A decision was taken in 2015 to regionalise PDG for lookedafter children My understanding was that the thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously So lookedafter PDG is held at a regional level We have lookedafter children PDG coordinators—they are in their second year this year—to look at a regional deployment of that resource And that resource can be done in a variety of ways through individual allocation to a school to support an individual child through to capacity building for the whole system So for instance if I give you an example in Carmarthenshire there is been a big emphasis on attachment disorder and training teachers with regard to the impact of attachment disorder Carmarthenshire happens to be one of those local authorities that does quite well in terms of attainment for lookedafter children But clearly I have—not concerns Concerns is not the right word But I have asked officials to give greater scrutiny to how that resource has been used in the last year Steve on my behalf wrote out to the system setting out our expectations but also advising them of the fact we will be asking very detailed questions of accountability for that money So what has that money been used on and how can you account for the effect ? But Steve maybe you can give some greater detail Steve Davies: I think the challenge that— One of the rationales for shifting—not that all the money stays in the region but having a regional strategic support—was that historically the money was going directly with that child to the school Given the quite often rapid turnover of children in schools—the very nature of lookedafter children is they do sometimes move through foster parents—historically what happened the money lands in the school because at that time in the year when it is measured the school gets the money and can spend it on some additional support for staff but quite often that child moves on to another school and the money does not transfer Some schools will go through quite a number of years without having a lookedafter child and will not think strategically How do I need to support them ? So that was the rationale of the shift In terms of the implementation of the regional allocation as of this financial year finishing we are going into local authorities and regions to evaluate where they have located the resource what the impact of that resource has been so that is reinforced and shared more widely","The most awareness around PDG is around free school meals, and there is less awareness around the availability of PDG to support looked-after children. In the nature of the cohort, there are more children subject to free school meals than are subject to being looked after. The thinking behind that at the time was around a greater strategic deployment of that resource and to try and drive a greater impact than how it was being used previously, so the looked-after PDG is held at a regional level." "Kirsty Williams AM: I am a great believer in if we can get it right for our most vulnerable learners we will be getting it right for all of our learners I gave the example earlier for instance of attachment disorder and Chair you will know that I have had conversations One of the emerging themes for me as I go around visiting schools is the impact and the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children So for instance as I said about Carmarthenshire there is been a huge effort to address that in the school sector in Carmarthenshire Now that has a disproportionate benefit for those children because you are more likely to see attachment disorder in children who are care experienced because of the nature of the lives that those children have lived but that does not necessarily mean that attachment disorder is exclusively found in those children that are looked after It can be found in other families as well So that vulnerable learner regardless of their background will benefit from having teachers who are better trained understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need Steve Davies: I think it is also important to add that this is not one regions approach this is across four regions so the others— For example ERW have run a significant programme looking at the impact of adverse childhood experiences on pupils which has enabled teachers to detect some of the impact of some of those and then considers some of the work they need to do within the school but also with other agencies So it is something that is applied consistently across the four regions Kirsty Williams AM: I was in Pil Primary School recently where they use their PDG both FSM PDG and no doubt an element of PDG for lookedafter for nurture groups So for those children who really really find it very difficult to be in the main classroom they can have that nurture group experience to address issues around emotional behaviour feelings and it gets them in a position where they are able then to join the main classroom because issues around behaviour have been addressed and they are in a better position to learn So again this is an example of how vulnerable learners in the wider sense can benefit Lynne Neagle AM: Mark did you have anything you wanted to ask ?","They believe that if they can get it right for our most vulnerable learners, they'll be getting it right for all of our learners. An emerging theme is the impact, the growing awareness and the growing numbers of children who have attachment disorder, and how schools are best able to respond to that in their children. So, vulnerable learners, regardless of their background, will benefit from having teachers who are better trained, understanding and have intervention strategies in place to be able to address that need. And this is an action applied across four regions." "Mark Reckless AM: Yes Can I follow up on tracking adopted children ? I entirely understand that you can not force parents to disclose that their child is adopted However my understanding was that in England there was a dataset with social services that was shared with schools in a way that I am not clear is happening in Wales and how if at all that links to the pupil level annual school census data Perhaps sort of linked to that is not there an argument for making the parents of adopted children in the schools potentially with adopted children more aware that adopted children who were previously looked after have this potential grant and would they not be more willing to disclose this at least confidentially to the school and Government if they knew there was this upside of doing so ? Kirsty Williams AM: We are actively looking at whether we should try and find a way of collecting this data with the caveats that I just gave earlier We can not force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them nor would I want to But there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether we could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through You are absolutely right One of the ways in which we can often encourage takeup for instance of free school meals especially in those communities where there is a sense of reluctance to apply for support—even though people are entitled to it there is a reluctance to do it sometimes we see this in rural areas— Actually appealing to the parents by saying Actually this will mean more money for your childs school budget is a much more compelling reason why people will apply for it then saying Actually it is going to help you because they do not want to be seen being dependent they do not want to be seen being helped But if you say to them Actually do you know that this means more money for your childs school ? they go Oh all right then I will fill in the forms now So you are right I think there is something that we could do to make parents understand in the round that this has an impact But we are actively looking at and discussing whether we could create a dataset around adopted children and how we can do that in line with data protection and data sharing One of the things I am concerned about in the performance of lookedafter children generally is how we can across Government work more closely together We can not see the educational attainment of lookedafter children just being a job of education It is got to be a job of social services and the health service as well There is got to be a joinedup approach to doing that Now officials were at the ministerial advisory group that is chaired by David Melding on prospects for lookedafter children They were there at the group last week David tells me that the paper was very positively received by the group I will be sitting down with David Melding to talk through what more we can do on the education side I think there is really an appetite between me and the Minister for children to get a closer working relationship on this We can not expect schools to do it on their own and alone And there are things that we can do out there in local authorities to help improve outcomes It is not just about the PDG it is about when social services are thinking about a placement where does the discussion about where children are going to go to school—when does that take place ? Do we talk about the placement move a child and then think Oh my goodness me what are we going to do about the schooling ? If you can imagine the school could have been working really really hard with a pupil to get them in a good place to get them being able to access the curriculum and then social services decide that the placement is being changed So we potentially lose all of that So a greater involvement in education and better linkedup working in local authorities will help us with this It can not be just the job of the PDG If we think we can crack this with just PDG then we are being delusional It has to be a crossgovernment approach at a national level and at a local government level as well to get this right Sometimes data protection—how can we break down some of these barriers between you know the school does not need to schools should not see the entire social services report ? Well maybe the school does need to see some of that background information if they are going to have an impact for that child So there is more work to do but it can not be just the job of education on its own if we are going to make a difference nor can it just be the job of the PDG to make a difference for those children","According to Kirsty Williams, they are actively looking at whether they should try and find a way of collecting this data. They can't force parents to divulge information that is a matter for them. But there is an active discussion going on at the moment about whether they could create a dataset where people divulge this information and we can then track the children through. They can't see the educational attainment of looked-after children just being a job of education. It has to be a job of social services and the health service as well." "Julie Morgan AM: And then just one more question about the exclusion rates amongst lookedafter children They are I understand over six times more likely to be given a fixedterm exclusion So is there any way of trying to address this ? Is the PDG used for anything to do with exclusions ? Kirsty Williams AM: We can look at exclusions We also have to read across about how the whole system works not just the PDG element of the system So we know for example that 66 per cent of lookedafter learners have some additional learning need so we can not just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding we have to look at it at a wider level of support So given that the majority of those children will have an ALN how can we make sure that our new ALN legislation and our new ALN regime meets the needs of these children ? So I think what we are looking at again is to say that it can not be just the job of the PDG That is there as an additional level of support but actually we have got to get our ALN right Unless we get our ALN right lots and lots of these children are not going to get the support that they need day in day out via that system We do know that sometimes if we are not addressing ALN then we are not addressing behaviour issues that then potentially lead to an expulsion or potentially lead to nonattendance So we have got to look at it in the round and recognise the connections between the sometimes quite complex needs that these children have within the school setting that are not just as a result of the fact that they are looked after they have other needs as well","According to Kirsty Williams, people should look at exclusions and also have to read across about how the whole system works, not just the PDG element of the system. 66% of looked-after learners have some additional learning need, so they can't just look at it in terms of this particular source of funding. It can't be just the job of the PDG." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: The reason I was asking was I wanted to understand what lessons the Government is taking from that threeyear investment really and how maybe you are applying some of those lessons to your wider school improvement programme I know Professor Mel Ainscow identified six interconnected lessons although I also note that the Cabinet Secretary did not actually meet him for about six or seven months after coming into post So I am just wondering can you give us confidence that actually you are serious about taking lessons from Schools Challenge Cymru and applying them to the wider school improvement agenda ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well absolutely Llyr I do not think anything should be read into when I met the individual concerned because officials were meeting the individual concerned Individual challenge advisers were meeting with the regions there was crossover work with the FSM agenda as well and we are absolutely determined that best practice and those interventions that drove school improvement are embedded in the new support that we have via the regional consortia It is no coincidence that some of the best people that were employed by Schools Challenge Cymru are now in the employment of our regional consortia So those people that were really good and really made a difference do not work for the Schools Challenge Cymru scheme any more they work for our regional school improvement services So we are absolutely determined The things that we have learned as always are around leadership It is absolutely key and crucial to have strong capable school leadership as a driver for change within the system We are looking at systems and processes so actually has a school got in place comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school ? We are looking at the teacher quality—how can we ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom ? Collaborative activity—again absolutely key A school can not see itself in isolation and one of the key themes of the national mission is a selfimproving system so collaborative working where schools are looking outside of each other learning from best practice from other schools So there are lots of things that we have drawn from the evaluation that you will see as key themes running through the national mission and as I said it is no coincidence that our really good people that were working in Schools Challenge Cymru are now working for the regional consortia being able to use that expertise not just for a very small proportion of our schools—but that expertise is available to all our schools","They are looking at systems and processes, the placement of comprehensive systems of tracking and processes within the school. They are looking at the teacher quality — how can they ensure that we have got consistent strategies in place to drive up pedagogy and teacher quality in the classroom. And also, collaborative activity. One of the key themes of the national mission is a self-improving system, so collaborative working is necessary where schools are looking outside of each other, learning from best practice from other schools." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: So you are confident that that level of momentum is continuing through the consortia that was previously enjoyed by those particular schools and you are also confident that there is minimal risk that they will slip back to where they were potentially or at least part of the way back Kirsty Williams AM: Well actually there are some really good examples of some of the Schools Challenge Cymru schools making that sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end You only have to look at Tredegar where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system That school is now a green school so they have been able to sustain their progress at the end of the programme If we look at Armando in Eastern High School again—gosh my goodness me we had lots of debates in a previous Chamber about the future of Eastern There was one person that said that Eastern had to be closed and that the only way forward for that particular school was for it to be shut down but what we have seen is investment via Schools Challenge Cymru but ongoing continual support from the regional consortium and that school has come out of special measures I pay absolute tribute to the staff of that school and that community that have done such a good job So I am absolutely convinced that where we have got good leadership and good support some of those schools are making continued sustained progress even after the end of the programme The challenge for me is for those schools that Schools Challenge Cymru did not work for and we have not seen that progress—how we can use our school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools to give them the level of support that they need to make a difference So that is what my focus is on now : a wholesystem approach rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support when we recognise that there are schools everywhere potentially that need intervention support and challenge and in the primary sector as well Llyr Gruffydd AM: So you would not agree with a number of—well the nearunanimous evidence that we have had from academics some of whom are Government advisers from consortia et cetera that this kind of programme such as Schools Challenge Cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have Kirsty Williams AM: What I would say is that from my understanding from the outset it was a timelimited programme The schools were aware of that There were no surprises that it was supposed to be a timelimited programme Evidence from across the UK showed that school challenge programmes have differed in time So for instance Manchesters challenge was a threeyear programme So there is no consensus about how many years you need to run a programme for The previous Minister was quite clear about the timelimited nature of the programme That is not to say it was the wrong decision because what is important and an ongoing legacy of the programme was the investment in regional school improvement capacity because at the time our school improvement services and the regions were young in their infancy The ability of individual local authorities to make a difference with so many local authorities in an Estyn categorisation was limited so one of the ongoing legacies of the programme is that significant investment of over £10 million in the capacity of the regions to be able to continue this support and the school improvement work","Some of the Schools Challenge Cymru schools are making sustained improvement now that the programme has come to an end. Like the example of Tredegar, where we have seen continual improvement and moving up through the categorisation system. The challenge is for those schools that Schools Challenge Cymru didn't work for, and they haven't seen the progress of how to use the school improvement system now to continue to work with those schools . So now the focus is a whole-system approach, rather than choosing 39 schools to get that level of support. Schools Challenge Cymru would probably need about five years to really have the impact that it was intended to have." "John Griffiths AM: Some questions on regional consortia Cabinet Secretary and first of all the role that you believe they should play and how schools use PDG Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is an absolute— It is one of the things that I have been very clear to the regional consortia that I expect their challenge and support advisers to be asking schools about So one of the conversations that they need to have when they are in schools is exploring with that school how they are using their PDG and how they are demonstrating an impact for those resources So it is a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work It is crucial John Griffiths AM: That sort of brings to mind some of the research that is been done on the role of the challenge advisers Cabinet Secretary which suggested that they are not actually challenging schools in that way and that there is very little evidence of schools changing their decisions on the use of PDG as a result of any challenge from those challenge advisers So how would you respond to those findings ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said in my scrutiny of the role and success of our regional consortia I specifically asked them about freeschoolmeal performance and the use of PDG within their particular region I think there is increasing evidence to suggest that good use is being made of that resource and I think that is being fed back into us Estyn tell us that it is one of the areas of school expenditure that is closely linked to research and an evidence base But clearly there is more to do and that is why we have appointed the new regional advisers for PDG going forward because we think there can be improvements in how this agenda can be supported at a regional level John Griffiths AM: So you would recognise the findings from that research Kirsty Williams AM: Yes There is always more that we can do and we are strengthening that role by the appointment of the new regional PDG advisers so that individual school challenge advisers know what they should be looking for know what they should be doing and there is a regional approach to good practice John Griffiths AM: Could you tell the committee Cabinet Secretary how effective you believe the relationship was between the Schools Challenge Cymru programme and the regional consortias school improvement functions and to what extent it varied by region ?","According to Kirsty Williams, she expects their challenge and support advisers to be having conversations that they need to have when they are with that school, to know about how they are using their PDG, and how they're demonstrating an impact for those resources. It's a fundamental role for the challenge and support advisers in the regional consortia in their school improvement work." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you As we have got a couple of minutes left if I can just jump back to the issue of practical uses of the PDG—because it is the only thing we have not really covered and it would be good to get on the record—can I ask to what extent you would like to see the PDG used to track the progress of eligible pupils ? And the committees heard that there are several different tracking systems and tools used by schools To what extent is that an issue to do with what the Welsh Government is promoting ? Or is it down to consortia or individual schools ? And do you think there needs to be a more centralised push on how the tracking is undertaken ? Kirsty Williams AM: Firstly can I say it is absolutely crucial that we track performance absolutely crucial ? That is the bedrock We do not dictate to individual schools the nature of the system that they should employ in their school There are a number of different programmes that allow schools to do this but we are absolutely clear and best practice and evidence shows us that individual pupil tracking is key and crucial And as I said in the beginning where we were not tracking pupils at all initial investment in PDG was used to establish these systems within schools Again one of the outcomes from the schools challenge review and one of the lessons learnt was again the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career But we do not dictate a single system But the principle is a really important one Lynne Neagle AM: and you do not think there is more scope to look at what the best system is that can be recommended to schools Kirsty Williams AM: That is not something we are actively looking at I am actively looking at developing a Welsh toolkit around good practice evidence base and research At the moment we use the Sutton Trust toolkit which is fine and excellent but we are having active discussions about whether we are in a position now to look at developing a suite of a Welsh toolkit to support this agenda and that is under active consideration","Kirsty Williams thinks that it's absolutely crucial that we track performance. Where they weren't tracking pupils at all, initial investment in PDG was used to establish these systems within schools. One of the outcomes from the schools challenge review, and one of the lessons learnt was the importance of individual tracking of pupils throughout their school career. But they can't dictate a single system." "Grad E: My laugh is better than yours Grad A: But you have to say something genuinely funny before you will get an example Grad D: The thing is I do not know how to get to the next page Here Grad E: No You should be at least be self satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes Grad A: No it s a different laugh Grad D: What ? ! Oh OK I was not even doing anything OK Grad E: Eva s got a laptop she s trying to show it off Grad D: That was r actually Robert s idea But anyhow Professor F: O K So here we are Once again right together so we have not had a meeting for a while and and probably will not have one next week I think a number of people are gone so Robert why do not you bring us up to date on where we are with EDU ? Grad B: in a in a smaller group we had talked and decided about continuation of the data collection So Fey s time with us is almost officially over and she brought us some thirty subjects and t collected the data and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at If you are interested in that talk to me and we found another cogsci student who s interested in playing wizard for us Here we are going to make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects this round She s actually suggested to look at the psychology department students because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements So they have to be subjected comment before they can actually graduate And we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time two days for example to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time and sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated structure That s for the data collection As for SmartKom I m the last SmartKom meeting I mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis which as of this morning should be resolved And so `` should be `` means they are not yet but but I think I have the info now that I need Plus Johno and I are meeting tomorrow so maybe when tomorrow is over we are done And ha n hav we will never have to look at it again Maybe it will take some more time to be realistic but at least we are we are seeing the end of the tunnel there That was that the I do not think we need to discuss the formalism that will be done officially s once we are done something happened in on Eva s side with the PRM that we are going to look at today and we have a visitor from Bruchsal from the International University Andreas I think you ve met everyone except Nancy Grad A: So when you said `` Andreas `` I thought you were talking about Stolcke Now I know that we are not OK Grad B: Andy you actually go by Andy right ? Oh OK Grad C: Cuz there is another Andreas around","The first phase of the data collection has finished. There is a new wizard for phase two, during which subjects will be given more complex scenarios. Also finished are the modifications on SmartKom: the remaining glitches will take no more than a day to iron out. A big part of the meeting was covered by the presentation of the PRM of the proposed system." "Grad D: What ? ! Oh OK I was not even doing anything OK Grad E: Eva s got a laptop she s trying to show it off Grad D: That was r actually Robert s idea But anyhow Professor F: O K So here we are Once again right together so we have not had a meeting for a while and and probably will not have one next week I think a number of people are gone so Robert why do not you bring us up to date on where we are with EDU ? Grad B: in a in a smaller group we had talked and decided about continuation of the data collection So Fey s time with us is almost officially over and she brought us some thirty subjects and t collected the data and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at If you are interested in that talk to me and we found another cogsci student who s interested in playing wizard for us Here we are going to make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects this round She s actually suggested to look at the psychology department students because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements So they have to be subjected comment before they can actually graduate And we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time two days for example to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time and sort of package the whole thing in a in a re in a few more complicated structure That s for the data collection As for SmartKom I m the last SmartKom meeting I mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis which as of this morning should be resolved And so `` should be `` means they are not yet but but I think I have the info now that I need Plus Johno and I are meeting tomorrow so maybe when tomorrow is over we are done And ha n hav we will never have to look at it again Maybe it will take some more time to be realistic but at least we are we are seeing the end of the tunnel there That was that the I do not think we need to discuss the formalism that will be done officially s once we are done something happened in on Eva s side with the PRM that we are going to look at today and we have a visitor from Bruchsal from the International University Andreas I think you ve met everyone except Nancy Grad A: So when you said `` Andreas `` I thought you were talking about Stolcke Now I know that we are not OK Grad B: Andy you actually go by Andy right ? Oh OK","As the data collection is going into its second phase, more complex scenarios will be used to generate more intricate dialogues. Subjects can be recruited from within the Psychology department students, since such participation in experiments is compulsory in their syllabus." "Professor F: No So y you did not yet tell us what the output is So what decisions does this make ? Grad D: OK So it only makes two decisions in this model And one is basically how desirable a site is meaning how good it matches the needs of a user And the other is the mode of the visit whether th It s the EVA decision so instead of doing a lot of you know computation about you know which one site it wants of the user wants to visit I will come well try to come up with like sort of a list of sites And for each site you know where h how how well it fits and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to do with it So Anything else I missed ? Professor F: So that was pretty quick She s ac Eva s got a little write up on it that probably gives the the details to anybody who needs them so the You you did not look at all yet to see if there s anybody has a implementation OK So one so one of the questions you know about these P R Ms is we are not going to build our own interpreter so if if we can not find one then we go off and do something else and wait until s one appears so one of the things that Eva s going to do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down the people at Stanford write papers as if they had one but we will see So w Anyway So that s a a major open issue If there is an interpreter it looks like you know what Eva s got should run and we should be able to actually try to solve you know the problems to actually take the data and do it and we will see I actually think it is cleaner and the ability to instantiate you know instance of people and sites and stuff will help in the expression Whether the inference gets any faster or not I do not know it would not surprise me if it if it does not You know it s the same kind of information I think there are things that you can express this way which you can not express in a normal belief net without going to some incredible hacking of sort of rebuilding it on the fly I mean the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontology and stuff fits this very nicely and does not fit very well into the extended belief net So that was one of the main reasons for doing it I do not know So people who have thought about the problem like Robert i it looked to me like if comment Eva were able to come up with a you know value for each of a number of sites plus its EVA thing that a travel planner should be able to take it from there And you know with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever and then plan a route Grad B: well first of all great looks mu much cleaner nnn nnn Certain certain beauty in it so if beauty is truth then we are in good shape But the as mentioned before we probably should look at t the details So if you have a write up then I would love to read it and because i Can you go all the way back to the the very top ? these comment these w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ? Grad D: I can not really see the whole thing Grad B: or are they have they changed in a sense ? Grad D: Well I think I basically leave them to similar things Some of the things might that might be different maybe like are that the hours for the site And eventually I meant that to mean whether they are open at this hour or not And status would be you know more or less like whether they are under construction and and or stuff like that Grad B: And the other question I would have is that presumably from the way the Stanford people talk about it you can put the probabilities also on the relations If Grad D: Which is the structural uncertainty ? Professor F: I that s That I think was actually in the previous the Ubenth stuff I do not remember whether they carried that over to this or not Grad B: It s sort of in the definition or in the in Daphne s definition of a PRM is that classes and relations","An alternative representation of the Bayes-net, it depicts context features as classes, and dependencies as relations between them. The current outputs show the desirability of a site, as well as its EVA mode. The fact that this model allows for instantiations of classes fits the research purposes much better than the extended belief-net." "Project Manager: And is it going to be a remote control that is what it can be used for different kind of equipment like your TV and your home stereo ? Marketing: Well I was I was thinking since a TV is mostly used together with a VCR or DVD player or recorder and not with a stereo I think it should be good to include functions for VCRs and DVD players recorders Project Manager: Mmhmm Mmhmm But the DVD players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hifi sets probably It is what from my experience Marketing: I do not know Hifi set is not often used as I know of in combination with television User Interface: It is only for television I thought Not Project Manager: Oh it is only for televis User Interface: I thought it was only for television So so we probably do not have to have to have the functions for DVD player or VCR Marketing: Yes it is only for television but Project Manager: So wha what What wha what what document Marketing: Well well we we are going to brainstorm about that If we think it is useful we do it Project Manager: But where where did it Where did you find that ? Marketing: That is right It is a television remote control But I was thinking since it is useful with DVD Project Manager: but most television remote controls support other functions as well So we can Industrial Designer: Yes that is something extras Project Manager: No we have to think about that but we have going to put some a is is it so userfriendliness is a is a pri priority in this case or Marketing: also no ones going to buy it Project Manager: Well this the maybe is some aspect of the or or some point at at which we can excel by making it very useful That w Well then you are you are the usability man so this going to be a very important task for you then","Project Manager suggested designing a remote control useful for multiple devices such as TV and home stereo. Marketing disagreed by pointing out that TV was mostly used with VCR or DVD player or recorders, functions for which should be included, rather than with a stereo. Against this point, Project Manager argued that DVD players and home cinema sets usually doubled as stereo hi-fi sets. The discussion took a turn when the User interface disagreed and suggested designing a remote control only for televisions. Project Manager insisted on including other functions as most remote controls did and everyone was on board in the end." "User Interface: It is only for television I thought Not Project Manager: Oh it is only for televis User Interface: I thought it was only for television So so we probably do not have to have to have the functions for DVD player or VCR Marketing: Yes it is only for television but Project Manager: So wha what What wha what what document Marketing: Well well we we are going to brainstorm about that If we think it is useful we do it Project Manager: But where where did it Where did you find that ? Marketing: That is right It is a television remote control",User Interface disagreed on adding support for DVD players to the remote control as the email stated that it should be a television remote control. "Project Manager: And is it going to be a remote control that is what it can be used for different kind of equipment like your TV and your home stereo ? Marketing: Well I was I was thinking since a TV is mostly used together with a VCR or DVD player or recorder and not with a stereo I think it should be good to include functions for VCRs and DVD players recorders Project Manager: Mmhmm Mmhmm But the DVD players and home cinema sets often double as stereo hifi sets probably It is what from my experience Marketing: I do not know Hifi set is not often used as I know of in combination with television User Interface: It is only for television I thought Not Project Manager: Oh it is only for televis User Interface: I thought it was only for television So so we probably do not have to have to have the functions for DVD player or VCR Marketing: Yes it is only for television but Project Manager: So wha what What wha what what document Marketing: Well well we we are going to brainstorm about that If we think it is useful we do it","Project Manager recommended to consider the practical value of adding support for DVD players to the remote control. If it was believed to be useful, then this idea would be adopted." "Project Manager: Well other ideas ? How can we make it trendy or something ? Do by just sh shape and the look of it ? Industrial Designer: to go with to go with fashion and Project Manager: Maybe a can opener underneath it ? I do not know Or someth something special like MP three player inside of it or User Interface: I I no I think it Project Manager: Oh well then the production costs are going to be too high probably User Interface: I th I think yo we have to keep it simple to get a whole market Project Manager: Maybe with different type of fronts or User Interface: It is international so we have to use a standard Project Manager: Well m has to be something spectacular or one which makes it Marketing: Well that is an idea of course","Project Manager suggested a can opener beneath the remote control, three players inside it, and different fronts on it. The rest of the team remained silent about the first idea and negative about the other two. Moreover, Industrial Designer pointed out that it needed to go with fashion; and User Interface shared the idea of keeping it simple and using an international standard." "Project Manager: Well other ideas ? How can we make it trendy or something ? Do by just sh shape and the look of it ? Industrial Designer: to go with to go with fashion and Project Manager: Maybe a can opener underneath it ? I do not know Or someth something special like MP three player inside of it or User Interface: I I no I think it Project Manager: Oh well then the production costs are going to be too high probably User Interface: I th I think yo we have to keep it simple to get a whole market Project Manager: Maybe with different type of fronts or User Interface: It is international so we have to use a standard Project Manager: Well m has to be something spectacular or one which makes it Marketing: Well that is an idea of course","When discussing features to make the remote control trendy, User Interface recommended to keep the remote control simple in order to gain a whole market and to use a standard as it was aimed at an international market." "Project Manager: Are they difficult to understand or maybe they do not interact with different kind of equipment very well ? Marketing: I do not th I do not think the four of us got problems with remote controls but if you see elderly people all these buttons and then they buy new TV because their previous one was stolen or whatever And then a totally different remote control with with different functions on different places and half of the functions a are removed or whatever so I think what we need is is a clear remote control with grouped buttons you know All th all the buttons which apply to the text functions in in one Well one area or whatever not like the button to enter text on top of the remote control and the button to to minimise it to this this or whatever o o other functions totally somewhere else I think we should group them And same for the for the volume buttons and the the t","Marketing first of all suggested focusing on elderly people who really got problems with remote controls and then pointed out the unclear button allocation on remote controls. To solve this problem, Marketing put forward that the remote control buttons should be grouped based on functions they serve. Project Manager agreed." "Marketing: I do not know if you can open the Project Manager: I do not know if I can open it Maybe you can s Marketing: No In document Mm computer User Interface: Where did you put it ? Project Manager: Shortcut to AMI shared folder ? Maybe you can send it to me by email Just to participant one At AMI Marketing: Mmhmm I can do that Project Manager: I will try to show it to everyone that would be more comfortable Marketing: It is participant one ? User Interface: I am designing the user interface Project Manager: So maybe I can switch slides when you whenever you ask that will be more convenient So functional requirements Marketing: so you can you can go so in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjects and the subjects also filled a questionnaire ? And here I have the results so you can see that seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more more nice more kind Eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy Eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look oh to it is not good So Project Manager: We can just keep doing that ? Marketing: So it is not in theory but I I can I can say Fifty f seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot So mm we have to have a remote control very out for that the buttons have are to be like you say resist resisting to to shocks and fifty per cents of users say they only use ten per cents of but of the buttons in the in the remote control So all the buttons we we have to put are have to to have a use a real use Project Manager: so fewer buttons maybe would be good ? Marketing: F not many buttons and and you useable buttons User Interface: But what kind of remote controls did you look at ? What kind of task was it ? It was a TV ? Marketing: most for most is TV Project Manager: but in fact we it it seems that we are going to make a TV remote control according to new requirements I received from the management bo I will present them in the following Marketing: Kay you can go so So there are other frustrations expressed by users so they said they lost often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to to and lot of the time they it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control So they want something s really very simple and easy to use And remote controls are bad for Project Manager: What is her other side ? User Interface: Other side yo wa your wrist It i can become painful you can have tendonditis Project Manager: I did not knew that User Interface: If you also up on a computer in a strange position Project Manager: so you we have to make it more ergonomic User Interface: Have to say ha ha Project Manager: sorry got a message from Microsoft Marketing: before that I I have some some some thing to say before We know that the user use a lot their remote control to to change channel and to to change volume selection of the and and not a lot for setting for setting the the channels and thing things like that So it is better to put something very easy to set and and Project Manager: This function should be very accessible This is the main function Marketing: That is right So then we asked some questions to them and we asked this question if they prefer an LCD screen or on their remultific function remotes control and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote control and you can go we have here the results of of the questions So you know that for the younger it is very important Project Manager: To have LCD and voice Marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition And and the others is not so important but we know that people between fifteen and twenty five are people who watch a lot TV and who who wh can use a lot this So maybe we we can have a speech recognition in Project Manager: maybe this this is important Moreover th maybe those like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can we have to take care of that point of view I think or so Marketing: and if there is th the conclusion now So as we say before I think a remote control lightening in the dark it is it is a good thing not to many mud buttons like we we said before e easy to use a way to find it easily in the room and resistant to to shock and to to Project Manager: these are the user requi Marketing: I do not know if you see something else important or Industrial Designer: I am just thinking of some thing We want to have a no I do not know if this is a good idea We want to have a a general remote control for everything Project Manager: No no no We w it seems that we no want to have a TV remote control From the management board I receive an email Cos it would be costly and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control User Interface: Mm I it is not true I think The the second claim that you put Project Manager: That it would be too long to develop User Interface: I think that should be the same Project Manager: Oh Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should focus on TV more where it seems that the market is more important So maybe it is a good decision I do not know What is your opinion ? User Interface: I have I have no idea I mean I should know a bit more about how fast we can design it Industrial Designer: But basically maybe I can continue with my presentation it would be al you you","Marketing mainly focused on users' frustrations and expectations for remote controls. Apart from the requirements for a fancier look, shock-resistance, and limited but usable buttons, other expectations were also raised by users, such as the need to be found, to easily use, to light in the dark, and the need of ergonomic design. Moreover, LCD and speech recognition also seemed important, especially for people between 15 and 25 who watched TV a lot. Last but not least, the previous plan for a generic remote control for everything failed due to the imbalance between the long developing time and the timely need to be on the market." "Marketing: And remote controls are bad for Project Manager: What is her other side ? User Interface: Other side yo wa your wrist It i can become painful you can have tendonditis Project Manager: I did not knew that User Interface: If you also up on a computer in a strange position Project Manager: so you we have to make it more ergonomic User Interface: Have to say ha ha",User Interface agreed with Marketing's proposal of more ergonomic design and mentioned that a strange position of using computers might well end in tendonitis and hurt one's wrist. "Industrial Designer: I am just thinking of some thing We want to have a no I do not know if this is a good idea We want to have a a general remote control for everything Project Manager: No no no We w it seems that we no want to have a TV remote control From the management board I receive an email Cos it would be costly and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control User Interface: Mm I it is not true I think The the second claim that you put Project Manager: That it would be too long to develop User Interface: I think that should be the same Project Manager: Oh Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should focus on TV more where it seems that the market is more important So maybe it is a good decision I do not know What is your opinion ? User Interface: I have I have no idea I mean I should know a bit more about how fast we can design it Industrial Designer: But basically maybe I can continue with my presentation it would be al you you","Considering the message from the management board, Project Manager emphasized the marketing competitiveness of remote controls over the costly and time-consuming need for making a generic remote control for everything. Therefore, the plan for a generic one was cancelled." "Industrial Designer: but I think we have some technical problem or so So I am just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control Project Manager: Maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to do Industrial Designer: Now I have enough cables User Interface: Like a you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff Industrial Designer: so I am just going to describe in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy We just have Like that I am just going to describe Basically we have a a battery a power supply here After that we just have user interface Let us say that something like that which could be a LCD let us say or an array of push button something like that Push button or a LCD After that we we feed that into an electronic chip So I say UC and I feed that to LED which is infrared which is a an infrared component And so what we for for myself this for for us this is quite easy Project Manager: UC is the central unit ? Industrial Designer: Y it is a it is this just a chip which does all the numerical numerical computation according to your display And so for us this is quite easy We just need to take to define what we want to do when the user interface wants something and after that we just do the coding to s and send that to to to the not the to the television So for us this is quite easy Project Manager: so this is quite easy There is not that much constraints Industrial Designer: we just have to define the processing power that we need especially if we want to do some speech recognition in that case that mean that we are going to use more for simple User Interface: This will think this will take more time to develop also Industrial Designer: And but for a standard one this is really easy It is a question of one month and so on s Project Manager: To have a you s you speak about with voi voice control ? Industrial Designer: I say standard standard remote control takes maybe one month to to do that User Interface: So the only time problem is the sp voice recognition Project Manager: So do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ? Industrial Designer: I would say about eight months to have the first results Project Manager: so i it is a bit long One month for the standard one with button Even if we have a LCD display ? Industrial Designer: even I mean that this is really standard devices now eight For speech recognition Project Manager: so we can take this into account So who think it would be good to go for like speech recognition ? User Interface: But we do not have time to market Industrial Designer: And also how much I think User Interface: I think we should contact management Industrial Designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we should not we should not go up to twelve point five Euro per unit so how many units should we sell to have a Project Manager: Well each unit is is sell twenty five Euros User Interface: How muc how much do you get how much do you if you buy one million units h no one hundred thousand units Eh chips We are going to need chips right How much will it cost for one hundred thousand ? Industrial Designer: Usually this is less tha at two dollars per chip User Interface: So you have any idea for a powerful one that has good enough for do speech recognition Project Manager: It seems that that we want to sell like four million units from the first meeting Maybe we can we can look at the new requirement I receive from the management board and discus discuss all function we want to have Industrial Designer: I just had a question do you want to continue with your presenta ? Project Manager: Well ask your question if you want Industrial Designer: you say that I do not remember by heart but thirty per cent of the tested people say that is it is quite difficult to to to use the remote control Do they say that this is difficult but for the same reason or do they have other reason ? To to maybe to keep in mind maybe to access to that menu you should do something like that Marketing: Would j w I I think they they say that it is difficult to learn how to use it but i when you know how to use it it is it is Project Manager: It is not intuitive first Industrial Designer: But maybe and what about if we design a remote control which can be configure as you want ? You say that I want I have six button User Interface: Mhhmm A a lot of people are if you have the LCD screen if you can do it completely the way you want because the buttons also look the way you want them Project Manager: But but also it seems that User Interface: but it will be hard to configure I mean imagine i so it is really something for the expert user So I mean there are markets and markets I think the young people are th are Christine here said you have a it is So for our young people it will be cool they can be able to use it Th maybe their parents will not but they will configure it I guess I do not know if there is study about that Project Manager: Maybe it would be more complex to configure it to be simple than creating a simple product","Industrial Designer first briefly described the components of the remote control, including a battery power supply, a user interface, an array of push buttons or a LCD, an electronic chip, an infrared component, and a UC as the central unit. Subsequent to the brief description, Industrial Designer pointed out the eight-month-long time problem for designing speech recognition, while the designing time for the standard one button was only one month. Moreover, Industrial Designer proposed the idea of configuring remote controls for the expert users and could better fit the market." "User Interface: And there are another thing is that if we make something that is simple and easy to use that is bas to use immediately that means that it will be exactly the same as everything else Otherwise if it is different then of course everybody has somebody has to learn to use it first Project Manager: But also we we see that that most people find it find remote controls too complex because they have too many buttons and they mainly use only channels and volume buttons So we may just make a very easy to use remote control with mainly those buttons and maybe also some lightning stuff too because most people find also hard to to find the remote control Losed lose it etcetera","User Interface proposed a paradox here. On the one hand, being simple and easy to use might be achieved at the price of losing individuality; on the other hand, being individual unavoidably meant that everybody must learn to use it first." "Project Manager: These these are these two points are the main frustrations so maybe if we design something very simple and easy to find when lost it will add a serious competitive advantage without making something too complex and too long to develop So but le let us see first the new requirement So we do not have to so this this is is in the this is in the same direction as we were speaking so we do not have to make a very complex remote controls to access teletext and stuff like that User Interface: But teletext is just one button Project Manager: but then you have to you have to define the buttons to surf amongst pages and stuff User Interface: You you just write the write the numbers So will you add with the channel keys right ? Project Manager: So anyway we do not have to include this feature because it is it is not used any more by users User Interface: I am I am sure that it do not like but I do not see just one button Project Manager: If i one button is still one more button If if if we want to make it very simple we have to reduce number of buttons compared to th to our competitors Well anyway I have this point We can discuss Also so as as I told before it would be better if it is only for the TV because we want to be quick on on the market And then also we have to make very clear that this this remote control is is part of of our products and show our corporate logo and and colours on the on the design as well so that they identify it as one of our product So this is the the key point So before finishing we can define what would be the characteristic of the o th of the control of the remote control and which button do we need which function do we want etcetera","Project Manager considered easy-to-use and easy-to-find as the two main frustrations in designing remote controls. But at the same time, such frustrations may pronounce a serious competitive advantage for the project without making too complex stuff or using too much time to develop." "Professor B: OK So today we are looking at a number of things we are trying and fortunately for listeners to this we lost some of it s visual but got tables in front of us what is what does combo mean ? PhD C: So combo is a system where we have these features that go through a network and then this same string of features but low pass filtered with the low pass filter used in the MESSAGE features And so these low pass filtered goes through M eh another MLP and then the linear output of these two MLP s are combined just by adding the values and then there is this KLT the output is used as features as well Professor B: so let me try to restate this and see if I have it right There is there is the features there s the OGI features and then those features go through a contextual l l let s take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottom arrow those features go through a contextualized KLT Then these features also get low pass filtered PhD C: so I could perhaps draw this on the blackboard So we have these features from OGI that goes through the three paths The first is a KLT using several frames of the features The second path is MLP also using nine frames several frames of features The third path is this low pass filter Adding the outputs just like in the second propose the the proposal from for the first evaluation And then the KLT and then the two together again Professor B: No the KLT And those two together That s it OK so that s that s this bottom one And so and then the the the one at the top and I presume these things that are in yellow are in yellow because overall they are the best ? Oh let s focus on them then so what s the block diagram for the one above it ? PhD C: For the f the f first yellow line you mean ? so it s basically s the same except that we do not have this low pass filtering so we have only two streams Well There s there s no low low pass processing used as additional feature stream Professor B: Do you e they mentioned made some when I was on the phone with Sunil they they mentioned some weighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers PhD C: actually the way things seems to well it s forty percent for TI digit sixty for all the SpeechDat Cars well all these languages Ehm the well match is forty medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty five Professor B: and we do not have the TI digits part yet ? PhD C: But Generally what you observe with TI digits is that the result are very close whatever the the system Professor B: OK And so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that ? OK so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good then we could compare the two and say what was better and how does this compare to the numbers oh so OGI two is just the top top row ? PhD C: So to actually OGI two is the the baseline with the OGI features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they ve they are still made some changes in the features and well but actually our results are better than their results I do not know by how much because they did not send us the new results Professor B: OK so the one one place where it looks like we are messing things up a bit is in the highly mismatched Italian PhD C: there is something funny happening here because But there are thirty six and then sometimes we are we are we are around forty two and Professor B: so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a a second silence detection PhD C: So there are some results here so the third and the fifth line of the table Professor B: So filt is what that is ? PhD C: so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it s it brings something but actually apparently there are there s no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay well Professor B: Oh we can not do it Oh OK PhD D: For that for that we Professor B: Too bad Good idea but can not do it PhD C: Except I do not know because they I think they are still working well t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but if we had time perhaps we could try to find some kind of compromise between the delay that s on the handset and on the server side Perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well For the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do not Professor B: OK So Alright so for now at least that s not there you have some results with low pass filter cepstrum does not have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places and and let s see What else did we have in there ? I guess it makes a l at this point this is I I guess I should probably look at these others a little bit And you you yellowed these out but Oh I see that that one you can not use because of the delay Those look pretty good let s see that one Well even the just the the second row does not look that bad right ? That s just ? And and that looks like an interesting one too PhD C: Actually the the second line is pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do not have this KLT on the first on the left part of the diagram We just have the features as they are Professor B: so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better And it s it s it s a little slightly simpler So so there s so I I would put that one also as a as a maybe and it and it s actually does does significantly better on the highly mismatched Italian so s and little worse on the mis on the MM case but Well it s worse than a few things so let s see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their their measure and are are we running this for TI digits or Now is TI di is is that part of the result that they get for the development th the results that they are supposed to get at the end of end of the month the TI digits are there also ? Oh OK OK And see what else there is here Oh I see the one I was looking down here at the the o the row below the lower yellowed one that s that s with the reduced KLT size reduced dimensionality","The team used OGI features that then passed through a contextualized KLT, an MLP, and a low-pass filter. The highly mismatched Italian part was still not working well. The team tried using silence detection to improve performance, but the results were not too promising." "PhD C: so it seems f for the the well match and mismatched condition it s it brings something but actually apparently there are there s no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay well Professor B: Oh we can not do it Oh OK PhD D: For that for that we Professor B: Too bad Good idea but can not do it PhD C: Except I do not know because they I think they are still working well t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but if we had time perhaps we could try to find some kind of compromise between the delay that s on the handset and on the server side Perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and but well For the moment they have this large delay on the the feature computation and so we do not Professor B: OK So Alright so for now at least that s not there you have some results with low pass filter cepstrum does not have a huge effect but it but it looks like it you know maybe could help in a couple places","PhD C explained that there was no room left for silence detection because of the server side delay. They were working out a compromise between the handset delay and the server delay, but the delay was too large at the moment." "Professor B: and and let s see What else did we have in there ? I guess it makes a l at this point this is I I guess I should probably look at these others a little bit And you you yellowed these out but Oh I see that that one you can not use because of the delay Those look pretty good let s see that one Well even the just the the second row does not look that bad right ? That s just ? And and that looks like an interesting one too PhD C: Actually the the second line is pretty much like the first line in yellow except that we do not have this KLT on the first on the left part of the diagram We just have the features as they are Professor B: so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come out better And it s it s it s a little slightly simpler",The professor thought that the results in the experiment without silence detection were okay as well. He thought some sort of weighted measure between other features should result in good performance. "PhD C: We can Sure But we have to decide I mean we have to fix the system on this d on this data to choose the best Professor B: But the question is when when do we fix the system do we fix the system tomorrow or do we fix the system on Tuesday ? I OK except that we do have to write it up PhD C: I think we fixed on Tuesday Mm Mm well Well basically it s this with perhaps some kind of printing and some some other Professor B: Right so maybe what we do is we we we as soon as we get the data from them we start the training and so forth but we start the write up right away because as you say there there s only minor differences between these PhD C: I think you we could we could start soon Professor B: and and I I would you know I would I would kind of like to see it maybe I can I can edit it a bit sure The my what in this si i in this situation is my forte which is English H Have y have you seen alt d do they have a format for how they want the system descriptions or anything ? PhD C: There is the format of the table which is quite impressive Professor B: ? I see Yes for those who are listening to this and not looking at it it s not really that impressive it s just tiny It s all these little categories set a set b set c multi condition clean No mitigation Wow Do you know what no what no mitigation means here ? PhD C: it should be the the problem with the error channel error Professor B: Oh that s probably the this is probably channel error stuff huh ? Oh this is i right it says right above here channel channel error resilience So recognition performance is just the top part actually and they have yes split between seen databases and non seen so basically between development and and evaluation And so right it s presumed there s all sorts of tuning that s gone on on the see what they call seen databases and there will not be tuning for the unseen Multi condition multi condition So they have looks like they have so they splitting up between the TI digits and everything else I see So the everything else is the SpeechDat Car that s the multi multilingual PhD C: so it s not divided between languages you mean or Professor B: It is but there s also there s these tables over here for the for the TI digits and these tables over here for the car data which is which is I guess all the multilingual stuff and then there s they also split up between multi condition and clean only PhD C: actually For the TI digits they want to train on clean and on noisy Professor B: So we are doing that also I guess PhD C: But we actually do we have the features ? For the clean TI digits but we did not test it yet the clean training stuff Professor B: Well anyway sounds like there will be a lot to do just to work with our partners to fill out the tables over the next next few days I guess they have to send it out let s see the thirty first is Wednesday and I think the it has to be there by some hour European time on Wednesday PhD D: We lost time Wednesday maybe because that the difference in the time may be is a long different of the time Maybe the Thursday the twelfth of the night of the Thurs thirty one is is not valid in Europe We do not know is happening Professor B: Yes so I mean I think we have to actually get it done Tuesday right because I I think PhD C: Except if if it s the thirty one at midnight or I do not know we can still do some work on Wednesday morning Professor B: well W i is but is is it midni I thought it was actually something like five PM on was like I thought it was five PM or something I did not think it was midnight I thought they said they wanted everything by well so five PM their time is is if PhD D: Not five PM three PM Professor B: Alright that s six in the morning here PhD D: no three three A three PM ? PhD C: No we are wondering about the the the hour that we have to eh I do not know if it s three PM it s PhD D: Oh Three PM here is in Europe midnight PhD C: it s it s midnight but Professor B: Yes yes but I did not think it was midnight that it was due I thought it was due at some hour during the day like five PM or something so I I well we should look but my assumption is that we basically have to be done Tuesday so then next Thursday we can sort of have a little aftermath but then then we will actually have the new data which is the German and the Danish but that really will be much less work because the system will be fixed so all we will do is take whatever they have and and and run it through the process we will not be changing the training on anything so there will be no new training there will just be new HTK runs so that s means in some sense we can kind of relax from this after after Tuesday and and maybe next meeting we can start talking a little bit about where we want to go from here in terms of the research you know what things did you think of when you were doing this process that you just did not really have time to adequately work on so Grad A: Oh Stephane always has these great ideas and oh but we do not have time PhD C: I m not sure these are great ideas Professor B: But they are ideas ? Oh that was good And and also it s still true that I think it s true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running the neural net transformation in parallel with the features rather than in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out The fact that none of these are are you know enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are not enormous and some of them are but I mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements but Cuz our best improvements over the years that we ve gotten from finding bugs but Anyway OK well I I think I see where we are and everybody knows what they are doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? PhD C: Mm I think it s OK We so basically we will I think we will try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps I was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single KLT because we did not really test that removing all these KLT s and putting one single KLT at the end Professor B: I mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it if you can fit it in Oh I have I do have one other piece of information which I should tell people outside of this group too I do not know if we are going to need it but Jeff up at the University of Washington has gotten a hold of a some kind of server farm of of ten multiprocessor IBM machines RS six thousands and and so I think each one is four processors or something or I do not know eight hundred megahertz or something and there s four processors in a box and there s ten boxes and there s some kind of ti so if you know he s got a lot of processing power and we would have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we want to want to want to run them he s he s offering it So It s when he was here eh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as I could tell so so in some ways he just got his payback but again I I do not know if we will end up with if we are going to be CPU limited on anything that we are doing in this group but but if if we are that s an offer OK well you guys doing great stuff so that s that that s really neat and we will g do not think we need to Oh well the other thing I guess that I will say is that the digits that we are going to record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and in addition to the SpeechDat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that s that s another source of data which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the that you know if we feel there s other measurements we do not have that we would like to have we can make them and Dave and I were just talking about that a little while ago so that s another another possibility for this this kind of work K if nobody has anything else maybe we should go around do do our digits do our digits duty OK OK I will start let me say that again OK I guess we are done","It was time for the team to rely on the models they had created so far to fix the system. They were deciding when to fix it. The professor explained that they should do so by Tuesday, and when they get new data later in the week, they need not train on it." "Professor B: And and also it s still true that I think it s true that that we we at least got fairly consistent i improved results by running the neural net transformation in parallel with the features rather than in sequence which was was your suggestion and that that that seems to have been borne out The fact that none of these are are you know enormous is is is not too surprising most improvements are not enormous and some of them are but I mean you have something really really wrong and you fix it you can get big and really enormous improvements but Cuz our best improvements over the years that we ve gotten from finding bugs but Anyway OK well I I think I see where we are and everybody knows what they are doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? PhD C: Mm I think it s OK We so basically we will I think we will try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps I was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single KLT because we did not really test that removing all these KLT s and putting one single KLT at the end Professor B: I mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it if you can fit it in Oh I have I do have one other piece of information which I should tell people outside of this group too I do not know if we are going to need it but Jeff up at the University of Washington has gotten a hold of a some kind of server farm of of ten multiprocessor IBM machines RS six thousands","PhD C thought that it would be worthwhile to test on a single KLT. The professor agreed that since it would be pretty low-maintenance, the team should do that, but only if they can fit it in." "Professor B: but Cuz our best improvements over the years that we ve gotten from finding bugs but Anyway OK well I I think I see where we are and everybody knows what they are doing and is there is there anything else we should talk about or or are we done ? PhD C: Mm I think it s OK We so basically we will I think we will try to to focus on these three architectures and and perhaps I was thinking also a fourth one with just just a single KLT because we did not really test that removing all these KLT s and putting one single KLT at the end Professor B: I mean that would be pretty low maintenance to try it if you can fit it in Oh I have I do have one other piece of information which I should tell people outside of this group too I do not know if we are going to need it but Jeff up at the University of Washington has gotten a hold of a some kind of server farm of of ten multiprocessor IBM machines RS six thousands and and so I think each one is four processors or something or I do not know eight hundred megahertz or something and there s four processors in a box and there s ten boxes and there s some kind of ti so if you know he s got a lot of processing power and we would have to schedule it but if we have some big jobs and we want to want to want to run them he s he s offering it So It s when he was here eh he he used i not only every machine here but every machine on campus as far as I could tell so so in some ways he just got his payback but again I I do not know if we will end up with if we are going to be CPU limited on anything that we are doing in this group but but if if we are that s an offer OK well you guys doing great stuff so that s that that s really neat and we will g do not think we need to Oh well the other thing I guess that I will say is that the digits that we are going to record momentarily is starting to get are starting to get into a pretty good size collection and in addition to the SpeechDat stuff we will have those to work with really pretty soon now so that s that s another source of data which is s under somewhat better control and that we can we can make measurements of the room the that you know if we feel there s other measurements we do not have that we would like to have we can make them and Dave and I were just talking about that a little while ago so that s another another possibility for this this kind of work",The professor noted that the most important improvements over the years have been due to finding bugs. He also informed the team of some IBM processors that were available to them at the University of Washington. He finally congratulated them on their efforts. "Marketing: so basically I just want to presented to you present to you some recent results we have had from looking at some remote control market research and some fashion trends around the world the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan so f from our market research basically we have come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel as opposed to a functional look and feel is our number one priority fancy is is is is the you know highest priority Secondly that our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative so this is t number two priority but it is two times less important as the fancy criteria and third thirdly the easiness of use is is the is is important as well but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remote control From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan we have discovered that this year fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes shoes and furniture So I am pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category And also the feel of material this year is expected to be spongy so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way Industrial Designer: What does it mean spongy ? Like soft or something ? Marketing: like a like a sponge so in conclusion we need a our remote control needs to be something that is really fancy has lots of technolog tech technology in it somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel And that it is easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our of th the Real Reaction company Project Manager: Easy to use is it a as much as important than technology or fancy thing It is less important right ? Marketing: So fanciness first and then two ti you know half as important as that is technology technology and half important as technology is easy to use So User Interface: The second one Could you please show the presentation number three Industrial Designer: I think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature User Interface: Yes Just Could you please check if it is the first one or the second n n no it is the first one The second one Project Manager: So it is not this one","From the marketing's point of view, fancy was the highest priority, followed by technologically innovativeness and ease of use. The marketing expected the feel of the material to be spongy." "User Interface: So I am going to talk about a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use I think I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy but we can discuss about it later generally generally this remote control should be should be something in my opinion the first feature is just to be easy to use So the more frequent buttons should be larger they should be placed in a good position inside the remote control And s I can conclude like this that we should not need to learn how to use it It should be we should not need to es open a a t book and start reading and learning how to use this this remote control So what I found out that as I said I think it is better to put more frequent ke buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control and they should be bigger in size the shape of remote control should be in a way which can which should be taken easily in hand It should not be completely like a cube It should be it should have round edge so then it is easier And maybe just like some toys some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand And also f m because because customers does not like to buy lots of battery it should not consume lots of energy And my personal p preference is as I said just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used that much like settings button like mobile phone Usually some mobile phone cover the dialling number part so we can cover these buttons which are not used or number buttons for the for the for the can channels and just put volume change or s ch can channel change buttons in the remote control And if the user needed to do some more complex task he he can open the cover and then change settings or something like this And also I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of the remote control it can be used easier Not on remote control I do not know if I can explain well But just inside For example a sliding or rolling d stuff if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with thumb So it can be another preference And I do not know but I think usage of a speech recogn r recogniser can be good I know that it consumes lots of energy but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects some sound it may consume less energy And I think it is good because it is something new and usually young people like something new So it may not be very useful but because it is new people may buy it I personally think there should be a big difference between between something Otherwise they prefer to buy something which is coming from a famous company or That is mine Industrial Designer: so good news from me for me from Hamed but bad news from Bob obviously because spongy design I do not like it as so could you please Fabien open it I am person two And which one probably the first one I am not sure but check the first one I Most of the things I have to write myself on the board but that is it Just It is only this slide ? This this is just one thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just I just found this that our company developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I will just seven seven inch T TFT screen which is good news for us since we wanted to include a display there so I I probably draw it down raw scheme This is this is the stuff that I can use to","User interface thought that the feature easy to use was more important than being fancy. He mentioned that the more frequent buttons should be larger and be placed in good positions. He preferred to put some buttons in special places and cover these buttons, or put some buttons inside the remote control. And the remote control also had to be easily taken in hands and energy-saving." "Marketing: Ca Can I ask a question Industrial Designer: A that is all from me Marketing: This seven inch TFT screen how big is it in reality ? Industrial Designer: Well seven to seven inches Marketing: have we decided that we are going to use this TFT screen ? Project Manager: No I do not think it is seven by seven I think it is seven the diagonal is seven Industrial Designer: To be honest I was Project Manager: Usually when they say seven inch I think it is the diagonal Marketing: But I mean even even that is like this big Project Manager: I do not know I dun I dun One each Industrial Designer: honestly speaking I was thinking that it was seven centimetres initially but it is seven inches But I I think we can we can cut it Marketing: You can cut the TFT screen Industrial Designer: because because because then the size of the graphic card will be one fourth Project Manager: So let us cut the TFT Industrial Designer: but no problem to to me to cut the screen So so for the same price we have four screens now Marketing: So what is the size of the device ? Industrial Designer: Ah well this is like this is almost nothing Seven to seven to at least well some three millimetres or something Marketing: Even from my perspective seven t seven centimetres by seven centimetres is still Industrial Designer: but we wanted the big buttons and stuff like that you know Marketing: Is it Can you hold that or ? Industrial Designer: Because if it is t too small we can we can lose it at home you know Project Manager: What user wants He wants a small remote control or ? with big buttons Industrial Designer: I thought that it it should fit in the hand or something Marketing: a small c control that they can hold in hand But is something that is seven centimetres square e easy to hold ? Industrial Designer: W I I think so I if the roller buttons are on the side you do not have to catch it like that but just like this and you know follow follow Well that is that is no task for me but well seven to seven at least Project Manager: So maybe you can finish your presentation and afterwards we will discuss about all this That is it So No so I think we have a lot We have to take decision today so I think we have to do some work to finalise our idea and take decisions first I think energy it is a key problem because it depend what can we have as feature if we use only batteries for example or something like that Because can we have LCD and speech recognition with battery and it is also r related to the size of the of the devi of the device ?","The group members firstly made sure how big the seven-inch TFT screen was in reality. And they thought that the remote control should not be too big or too small, it should be fit in hands. Then they discussed how the screen and buttons could be reasonably put on the remote control." "Industrial Designer: Not J just a point to the energy th things If we use the batteries and the additional so solar cell then it is for L speech recognition and LCD so no problem in energy I think But we have to use the solar cell Project Manager: but using how many batteries for example ? Are are what Maybe what is the size of the battery Industrial Designer: I was thinking just common AA cells So like three to five centimetres I do not know exactly but Marketing: So if we use s solar cells where is the sun if someone is watching TV inside ? Industrial Designer: S d does not need to be sun It it is just the daylight you know well I I suppose that I suppose that that this remote control will not be in the in the room like this where there is light only when when there are people but Project Manager: At least when there is TV you can get light from the TV Industrial Designer: I do not think it is enough Ah it is a it is a compromise no ? Project Manager: At least it is new and maybe technology New technology Industrial Designer: that is why I wanted to to include the speech recognition because you wanted all the new things Marketing: It is it is quite innovative yes And if you watch TV outside it is very useful",The industrial designer thought that the solar cell was necessary for speech recognition. He mentioned that the daylight was enough for recharging. And he supposed that the remote control would be in the room which was usually lightful. "Project Manager: So I think before talking about the other thing it is important thing it is the case what what are going to be the size because its weight drives the other what we are going to use as features and so on For example for the for the LCD if we choose to have a small device we can not use this a such a a a screen Industrial Designer: the s the screen is but the board that is the problem Well what what would you guess as a shape ? Or what what would be the shape ? User Interface: Mm I think I think their being large or small is not important The only important thing is to be able to take it in inside hand easily So let us say an average size and it should not be very heavy also And I prefer to is it should not have a uniform shape so in the middle it should be a little bit thinner maybe maybe So we c it is like like some joysticks You can take some some joystick you can take inside hand easier because it is it is designed for your f taking into account your finger shape and your palm shape So the general shape should be like this I think seven centimetre by seven centimetre is a little bit large So seven not seven but let us say five by ten it is I think it is that is my opinion It is easier Marketing: Which is the same area Could you re could you redesign your board ? Industrial Designer: Five to ten Well that Marketing: Oh five five centimetres by ten centimetres Industrial Designer: I think it is feasib Well one How could we do it ? We could put the board next to well under the LCD and for example make the LCD be totally unrelated to the thing that you hold in your hand Like holding something and the LCD to be just on top of it you know somehow Well But maybe let us stick to the s spongy thing like one unit Project Manager: Oh I have I s I think the easiest thing would be to to have a smaller LCD if it is possible Industrial Designer: Well fi five to ten it would be feasible so five to ten I I think it is it is feasible Project Manager: So we are agree with a small User Interface: Or or I do not know but I do not want to now invent something new because we did not discuss about it So using some LCDs we can touch so we can remove keys and just having I do not know the name LCD responding to fingers Touching the screen Something like So But for now if we do not want to use such kind of screens I I think we using a a smaller screen is better Project Manager: The problem is we have a limit in a month of time so we can not do something very new So let us go for a small LCD Industrial Designer: so so so just just give me the the the five by ten numbers that you find the best and send it me Project Manager: So five by s ten Industrial Designer: and I will work it out Project Manager: so what about so the case we talked about something easy to use you said something easy to use but how does that fit in a fashion way like with fruit and vegetable and about the colour and logo of the of the company and so on now can we do that ? My first idea is because our colour is more yellow and the it should be easy to take in a hand I thought about banana or something like that which is fruits and Industrial Designer: Rather mango or something or Marketing: Well it is it is definitely the obvious choice with the colour of our company I mean what other what other fruit and vegetables Project Manager: But it is just an idea I do not know what you think about but Marketing: Do you know of any any other fruit and vegetables that are yellow ? Project Manager: I do not know if it can fit with the technology You are the specialists of that Industrial Designer: Well but If it is If it If the banana is big enough Then yes But if you want to look at the screen no Well User Interface: I think this is not good Project Manager: The screen has to be square ? Or it can be like a a shape quite with curves Industrial Designer: Well it can be whatever you want But if it is square then we get four screens out of one by cutting just But if you want some shape then we can only get like two screens out of seven to seven inches so It is like more more expensive to have shape like that But I do not care You know if we fit this requirement Marketing: Well I would like a shaped screen I think that is more important than saving a bit of money on on the TFT screen Industrial Designer: m maybe the banana could be like a bit fatter than than the c c common one Project Manager: it should remember banana but it is not does not have to b to be really the size and exactly the shape of a banana So we are agree with the banana thing ? Industrial Designer: Well it we will stick to banana or ?","The user interface said that no matter large or small, taking in hand easily was the most important thing. The project manager also wanted the shape to be fashionable. Considering that the colour of their company was yellow, they decided to make the shape of the remote control like a banana." "Project Manager: So the last point we decided it is infrared I guess so that is it I think about the concepts You have other thing to add to this point or no ? So about the user interface so we are going to use LCD In the last meeting we talked about hidden buttons I do not know what we are going to do with that You talked about the buttons on the side Industrial Designer: Like like peeling of the banana you s Peeling of the banana you know should should discover the other buttons which are hidden Project Manager: And you mean the first layer would be spongy Industrial Designer: w It is it is like silly but the people will really appreciate it I think Project Manager: Is it is it possible to do that ? It would be a great idea but is it possible technically ? Like doing a spongy layer of the banana and you open it Marketing: I think if we if we have a spongy layer on the outside of the banana then it is easy to make that you know to manipulate that to hav be a cover that you can pull off and User Interface: some Something like a plastic cover covering some interface USB interface as in the in digital camera If you see it is like peeling You open a plastic cover and you see some USB interfaces some some interfaces for adaptor So keys can be buttons can be covered like this with a plastic cover and when and when you open this cover it is like peeling a banana So something like this Project Manager: but do you see that as a rigid thing or like like a banana something very soft you can open like banana or Industrial Designer: Well is it possible to make it soft ? User Interface: it is a lic like a plastic cover so Industrial Designer: So I think if it is so then it is cool ? Project Manager: So I do not know what you think Bob but it would be great for users I think and very good for marketing Marketing: I think for sure Definitely The softer the better Industrial Designer: Honestly speaking I can not imagine it so far but it will be terrible Project Manager: And setting buttons hidden in Mm other remarks or something or Something we did not talk about yes yet or I think we are almost there maybe how can we if we have a soft thing like this and to open it we have to attach it somewhere I do not know how to do that technically or Marketing: Or ma maybe a magnetic User Interface: Yes it is a good idea Magnetic Mm or a it can is it can be a plastic cover sticking to the to the all the stuff like with magnetic p magnetic magnetic materials in the border so it is it sticks like refrigerator door completely And when you try to open it it will be opened easily So you you can be sure that it will not be open while you are while while you are commonly using buttons on the banana Project Manager: And what would be the matter here of the first layer I mean ? Mm Likes Soft plastic or Marketing: I imagine some sort of vinyl thing",The group members thought that the first layer would be spongy. It might be magnetic and would be like a plastic cover covering some buttons or USB interface. Users could open this cover like peeling a banana. "Lynne Neagle AM: And you have got a structured programme have you to roll that out ? Thank you We have got some questions now on leadership and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning I will be speaking in Welsh The Minister for health said yesterday in answering a question from me on the Chamber floor that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children Could you confirm that that is what your advice was and tell us why you do not think that a target is needed ? Dr Frank Atherton: My advice was not that we do not need a target—we may well need a target and that is one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable and that if we are to choose a target in Wales then we need to balance deliverability with challenge We need a challenging environment So there is something about performance management because I would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they are delivering on this and I think we can use targets to that But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use and part of the consultation is to ask that question—If we are to go down a route in Wales of choosing a target what might that look like ? Sian Gwenllian AM: So to be clear you are not ruling out that maybe we would need a target Dr Frank Atherton: It is certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that your opinion too ? Well that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister but there we go I am glad to hear that you are not ruling out having a target because without a target without something to aim for how do we know that we are getting there ? Dr Frank Atherton: I think your point about evaluation is really important Whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we are looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation So some metrics in there it would seem would be appropriate but what those are what the nature of those are do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that is the point we need to consult on Sian Gwenllian AM: And the other point of course is the investment If the Government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity then it needs to fund and support the actions Have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? Dr Frank Atherton: Resourcing will be important We currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally and of course obesity and overweight in particular So the question of resourcing is important Now we can not quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what is going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in Wales A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes We need to look at existing programmes how effective they are Can we make them more effective ? Can we get better value from them ? And there may well be a case for new investment and that is a question of course that would need to be discussed with Ministers when we are producing the final strategy Nathan Cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesityrelated services So I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they are better evaluated and how we can make sure that we are also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well Sian Gwenllian AM: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? Dr Frank Atherton: I do not think you can necessarily just link the two The issue of resourcing is one that is there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place Sian Gwenllian AM: But how would we know that it is being used effectively if there is not something to aim for ? Dr Frank Atherton: Which brings you back to the question about evaluation We need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but without a target how can you properly evaluate ? If you do not know what you are trying to do how can you properly evaluate ? Anyway you are open to suggestions about having a target which is great Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that is being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well of course there are some consequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks That funding of course is less than we had anticipated and that reflects actually a success story because industry is reformulating and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease which is a good thing But to your question : should we use the funding ? Well of course we should use funding I am not personally in favour of hypothecation I think I am more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource There are of course a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue And when I think about obesity I do not just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source but I think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular Sian Gwenllian AM: You are saying that it is less than expected Could you give us any kind of figure ? Dr Frank Atherton: I am sorry could you repeat the question ? Sian Gwenllian AM: You say that there is less money that is come in through these consequentials from the levy can you mention some sort of figure ? Dr Frank Atherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that is coming in in terms of revenue over a twoyear period But I would have to confirm that with the committee What the anticipated— When the sugar levy was first brought in there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks I mean the total amount available to the UK is less and hence our consequentials are less Nathan may have some precise figures Nathan Cook: Yes I was going to say there was a midyear report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April and the original forecast was £520 million a year So I think that shows the amount of work that is been done by industry around reformulation Sian Gwenllian AM: And the consequentials of that ? That is the consequential—£150 million Yes so what is the Welsh consequential ? Fiftysix ? Gosh that sounds a lot Anyway it is a good sum of money and you are talking about investing £8 million to £10 million So obviously you know we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ringfenced for this particular scheme Dr Frank Atherton: Well the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address and I think as Nathan has said there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible Will there be a need for some additional resource ? There may well be and that is a question that we will have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with Ministers about the level of resourcing","There was no exact evaluation but Dr Frank Atherton did think they should have a strong one. The draft strategy also made an estimate in investment which would be £8 million to £10 million a year. Investment would be spent on different sources and they should pay more attention to extending them. Speaking of leadership, Dr Frank Atherton agreed to its importance and made his own opinion that local leadership was essential and they should also have national oversight at the same time." "Lynne Neagle AM: And you have got a structured programme have you to roll that out ? Thank you We have got some questions now on leadership and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning I will be speaking in Welsh The Minister for health said yesterday in answering a question from me on the Chamber floor that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children Could you confirm that that is what your advice was and tell us why you do not think that a target is needed ? Dr Frank Atherton: My advice was not that we do not need a target—we may well need a target and that is one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable and that if we are to choose a target in Wales then we need to balance deliverability with challenge We need a challenging environment So there is something about performance management because I would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they are delivering on this and I think we can use targets to that But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use and part of the consultation is to ask that question—If we are to go down a route in Wales of choosing a target what might that look like ? Sian Gwenllian AM: So to be clear you are not ruling out that maybe we would need a target Dr Frank Atherton: It is certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that your opinion too ? Well that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister but there we go I am glad to hear that you are not ruling out having a target because without a target without something to aim for how do we know that we are getting there ? Dr Frank Atherton: I think your point about evaluation is really important Whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we are looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation So some metrics in there it would seem would be appropriate but what those are what the nature of those are do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that is the point we need to consult on","Having a target is more of its deliverability than just having it according to Dr Frank Atherton. Since there had been not that successful examples, Dr Frank Atherton considered that they must balance deliverability with challenge. Also, Dr Frank Atherton thought a target was one tool in the box that they could use, but moreover, an evaluation which could help them know where they are was very needed. At the same time, there was still a lot to achieve." "Sian Gwenllian AM: And the other point of course is the investment If the Government is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity then it needs to fund and support the actions Have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan ? Dr Frank Atherton: Resourcing will be important We currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally and of course obesity and overweight in particular So the question of resourcing is important Now we can not quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what is going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greater degree in Wales A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes We need to look at existing programmes how effective they are Can we make them more effective ? Can we get better value from them ? And there may well be a case for new investment and that is a question of course that would need to be discussed with Ministers when we are producing the final strategy Nathan Cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind of obesityrelated services So I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they are better evaluated and how we can make sure that we are also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well Sian Gwenllian AM: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is ? Dr Frank Atherton: I do not think you can necessarily just link the two The issue of resourcing is one that is there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place Sian Gwenllian AM: But how would we know that it is being used effectively if there is not something to aim for ? Dr Frank Atherton: Which brings you back to the question about evaluation We need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but without a target how can you properly evaluate ? If you do not know what you are trying to do how can you properly evaluate ? Anyway you are open to suggestions about having a target which is great Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that is being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to— ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well of course there are some consequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks That funding of course is less than we had anticipated and that reflects actually a success story because industry is reformulating and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease which is a good thing But to your question : should we use the funding ? Well of course we should use funding I am not personally in favour of hypothecation I think I am more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource There are of course a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue And when I think about obesity I do not just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source but I think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular Sian Gwenllian AM: You are saying that it is less than expected Could you give us any kind of figure ? Dr Frank Atherton: I am sorry could you repeat the question ? Sian Gwenllian AM: You say that there is less money that is come in through these consequentials from the levy can you mention some sort of figure ? Dr Frank Atherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that is coming in in terms of revenue over a twoyear period But I would have to confirm that with the committee What the anticipated— When the sugar levy was first brought in there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks I mean the total amount available to the UK is less and hence our consequentials are less Nathan may have some precise figures Nathan Cook: Yes I was going to say there was a midyear report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April and the original forecast was £520 million a year So I think that shows the amount of work that is been done by industry around reformulation Sian Gwenllian AM: And the consequentials of that ? That is the consequential—£150 million Yes so what is the Welsh consequential ? Fiftysix ? Gosh that sounds a lot Anyway it is a good sum of money and you are talking about investing £8 million to £10 million So obviously you know we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ringfenced for this particular scheme Dr Frank Atherton: Well the resource is going to be a real issue that we need to address and I think as Nathan has said there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible Will there be a need for some additional resource ? There may well be and that is a question that we will have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with Ministers about the level of resourcing","Investment needed to implement the plan was more about resourcing. Dr Frank Atherton said they currently did make investments in a number of areas that related to child health generally, and, of course, obesity and overweight in particular. And now, according to existing programmes, a figure of £8 million to £10 million a year had been bandied around as a broad kind of area of what they might need. Dr Frank Atherton also put priority in thinking about the totality of the £7 billion they spent in health and social care and how they could divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general, and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We have got some questions now from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair Delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to Ministers Which Minister do you believe it should be accountable to or given the complexity of obesity should the board be directly accountable to the First Minister ? Dr Frank Atherton: Ultimately the First Minister will be responsible for this and will want to have a strong oversight of this It is often framed as a health issue and the Minister Vaughan Gething has a strong personal commitment to this I know We have talked extensively with him and with sports and recreation colleagues about that so there is a link there It does cut across all portfolios and so this is an issue that I have discussed with Cabinet and that collective ownership is really important and will be because it can not just sit in one domain I think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry and I would see health as—I work within health so I am perhaps biased but I would see health as leading this but it needs broad ownership across Government Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know my colleague Siân Gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things but I know in Wales we are not too good at collecting data What data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plans objectives ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well of course our main data source is the child measurement programme which collects information on children entering school aged four or five That is our main source of information If we look at that data it shows us— Well I am sure you are familiar with the statistics but it will be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Could I just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? Dr Frank Atherton: The last survey was just last year Nathan Cook: The data was published last week Dr Frank Atherton: Yes the lastest data was out last week Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is pretty up to date Dr Frank Atherton: So it is pretty up to date and what it shows— It is not getting radically worse—there is always statistical variation in these things—but it is not getting any better And for the first time last year we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese severely obese So we have a figure for that for the first time which is about 12 per cent which is quite shocking in a way So that is our main source of information Does that answer your question ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? By that I mean in England for example children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12 that kind of age group And so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what is happening to children I think that would be helpful to us in Wales and it is one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that Obviously that would have significant resource implications not just for the funding but also for schools and for the system to deliver it But it is something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier Nathan Cook: And the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study which has been released for 14 and 15yearolds That is going to be— We are starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well which will be really helpful Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you You have answered my next question Thank you Lynne Neagle AM: Can I just ask about the child measurement programme ? The strategy commits to looking at whether we can have a second measurement taking place in Wales Can you just tell us a bit more about your thinking on that and when you would see a second measurement taking place and how you would use that data ? Dr Frank Atherton: I touched on that just now but personally I do think it would be helpful to have more information It is always the case There is always a tradeoff between the cost of getting that information and the value of the information So the question of how it would be used would be really important There is still a lot that we do not know We know an awful lot about obesity and being overweight and the causes of it but we do not really have a very clear understanding in Wales at least of the point at which children start to become overweight Although we know that overweight children tend to go on to become overweight adults we do not know what proportion of them between school entry and later teenage years—what those changes are So it would help us to have some better understanding which would help to direct some of our initiatives I would be generally supportive of the principle We will wait and see what comes out in the consultation and it is something that we need to give thought to but we do have to trade off the additionality of what the information would give us with the cost of doing that of course","There main data source was the child measurement programme, which collected information on children entering school aged four or five, showing that under a third of children at that age are overweight or obese. Dr Frank Atherton spoke of the frequency of being asked to have a longitudinal view over time of what's happening to Children, which was obviously essential for our schools and for the system and helpful for the strategy evaluation." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know my colleague Siân Gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things but I know in Wales we are not too good at collecting data What data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plans objectives ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well of course our main data source is the child measurement programme which collects information on children entering school aged four or five That is our main source of information If we look at that data it shows us— Well I am sure you are familiar with the statistics but it will be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Could I just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that ? Dr Frank Atherton: The last survey was just last year Nathan Cook: The data was published last week Dr Frank Atherton: Yes the lastest data was out last week Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is pretty up to date Dr Frank Atherton: So it is pretty up to date and what it shows— It is not getting radically worse—there is always statistical variation in these things—but it is not getting any better And for the first time last year we did look at the question not just of children who were overweight or obese but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese severely obese So we have a figure for that for the first time which is about 12 per cent which is quite shocking in a way","Dr Frank Atherton first gave a very latest data showing that under a third of children at four or five are overweight or obese. The data showed that the situation was not getting radically worse but also not getting any better. They have a figure for the severely obese for the first time, which is about 12 per cent, which is quite shocking, in a way." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes but how will any gaps in your data be addressed ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well one of the questions that are often asked is : could we measure more on a longitudinal basis ? By that I mean in England for example children are measured at school entry and then again at year 11—at age 11 or 12 that kind of age group And so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what is happening to children I think that would be helpful to us in Wales and it is one of the questions in the consultation about whether we should expand that Obviously that would have significant resource implications not just for the funding but also for schools and for the system to deliver it But it is something that maybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier Nathan Cook: And the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study which has been released for 14 and 15yearolds That is going to be— We are starting to think about how we can utilise some of that data looking at that longitudinal picture around children as well which will be really helpful Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you You have answered my next question Thank you","Dr Frank Atherton put out one “often asked” question and attached some importance to having a longitudinal view over time of what's happening to Children, which meant children were measured at school entry and then again at age 11 or 12. That would have significant resource implications, not just for the funding, but also for schools and for the system to deliver it. And also, according to Dr Frank Atherton, the longitudinal data would be helpful in strategy evaluation." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair In the draft plan some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks and that sort of thing Do you think that if we go down that road there is going to be time within this Assembly to introduce such legislation ? And if not what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? Dr Frank Atherton: It may well be that there are things in Wales that we might wish to legislate on and you have mentioned two of them and they are good examples We would obviously need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and in a way we need to mirror what is happening in England and in Scotland to some degree around the consultations they are having on energy drinks We also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that As to your question of legislative time I am not really in a position to answer that What I could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation There may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on The timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures and I come back to the point that legislation of course is one of the tools that we have got—we need to deploy them all Dawn Bowden AM: Sure I understand that that you could do other things I know— We have heard from the Government on other calls for legislation that the programmes very tight certainly for this term so I was just wondering whether we might get that in but If I turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of I would just welcome your view on this because when we discussed with stakeholders we talked about whether the planning system for instance could be used to as an example restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on Would that be a measure that you would support something like that ? Dr Frank Atherton: I think it is definitely something we want to look at and of course that question is asked in the consultation so we would like to know peoples views on that It is an interesting one I think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively I have discussed with Nathan on a number of occasions with planning colleagues in Welsh Government and in local authorities about the art of the possible let us say There may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation The specific question around takeaways particularly takeaways near schools is often asked I was very interested to see up in the northeast some time ago that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fastfood venues near to schools or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high I understand London is now—some London boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well So that gave me comfort because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively I think my view at the moment is that the jurys kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they are going to be But the fact that we have some initiatives around the UK does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then if it is shown to be beneficial to think about that here in Wales yes Dawn Bowden AM: Sure because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway Of itself it would not address the problem but added to other initiatives I guess it would Can I just ask you briefly then about community sport infrastructure and in particular of new schools ? So Welsh Government as you know has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twentyfirst century schools programme What we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently particularly headteachers was that in some of the new schools that have been built we have not had changing rooms and toilet facilities for instance built into the new buildings So if we are going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public actually more active do you think that is something that we ought to be building in ? Again not your particular direct area of responsibility but something that you might have an input into is that when we are developing schools we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public Is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well it is certainly a fascinating area and one that I think has a lot of potential It goes— You are right to raise it in the context of schools and I can understand why this committee would but I think it goes beyond that actually into all developments in the public sector and how they are developed and whether we are building health into our environment which perhaps is your starting point One of the things that I was really pleased to see in terms of the Public Health Wales Act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool and we are still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through Government but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using And so I would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions If you apply that kind of lens and you take the point which is inherent in your question I think that schools are not just for kids they are for communities then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way So on a personal basis I would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres There are all kinds of barriers in there and I understand all of that and it is not really my field exactly as you say but as a matter of principle I think it is a good one to pursue Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you And widening it out to other public services buildings as well","Dr Frank Atherton was first asked about legislations in the draft plan and their ideas on those things. The use of legislation was affirmed by Dr Frank Atherton but it was just one of the tools they have got, they need to employ them all. Then as to sports infrastructure, Dr Frank Atherton, though not an expert in that field, also supported it as a good one to pursue not only in schools but also in a broadening area." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair In the draft plan some of the measures in there suggest legislating for restricting price promotions and banning energy drinks and that sort of thing Do you think that if we go down that road there is going to be time within this Assembly to introduce such legislation ? And if not what do you think might be the timescale for such legislation ? Dr Frank Atherton: It may well be that there are things in Wales that we might wish to legislate on and you have mentioned two of them and they are good examples We would obviously need to undertake quite detailed consultation on those and in a way we need to mirror what is happening in England and in Scotland to some degree around the consultations they are having on energy drinks We also need to influence the issues that are not devolved to us and we seek to do that As to your question of legislative time I am not really in a position to answer that What I could say is that legislation may well be one of the outcomes of the consultation There may well be things that we wish to choose to legislate on The timing of that will have to be subject to other pressures and I come back to the point that legislation of course is one of the tools that we have got—we need to deploy them all Dawn Bowden AM: Sure I understand that that you could do other things I know— We have heard from the Government on other calls for legislation that the programmes very tight certainly for this term so I was just wondering whether we might get that in but If I turn now to the planning system—and this might not be something that you have great deal of knowledge of I would just welcome your view on this because when we discussed with stakeholders we talked about whether the planning system for instance could be used to as an example restrict hot food takeaways around schools and so on Would that be a measure that you would support something like that ? Dr Frank Atherton: I think it is definitely something we want to look at and of course that question is asked in the consultation so we would like to know peoples views on that It is an interesting one I think there is a question—a really important question—about how we can use the planning system more effectively I have discussed with Nathan on a number of occasions with planning colleagues in Welsh Government and in local authorities about the art of the possible let us say There may be things that we could think about and we want to get those ideas through the consultation The specific question around takeaways particularly takeaways near schools is often asked I was very interested to see up in the northeast some time ago that one of the local authorities up there did put a moratorium on the opening of new fastfood venues near to schools or indeed in areas where levels of obesity and overweight were particularly high I understand London is now—some London boroughs are now—experimenting with that as well So that gave me comfort because maybe there are powers within local authorities that can be used more effectively I think my view at the moment is that the jurys kind of out on whether those are effective and how effective they are going to be But the fact that we have some initiatives around the UK does give us an opportunity to study that and to learn from experience perhaps and then if it is shown to be beneficial to think about that here in Wales yes","According to Dr Frank Atherton's answer to legislations' timing, it was very clear that the implementation of legislation to build a healthy environment was very approved by Dr Frank Atherton and even by a large group in the consultation. Dr Frank Atherton reviewed that they needed a mirror to see what had been happening in this country and legislation was a good way and took some examples of food takeaways which showed that they needed to consider effectiveness things." "Dawn Bowden AM: Sure because it will only be one of a suite of measures anyway Of itself it would not address the problem but added to other initiatives I guess it would Can I just ask you briefly then about community sport infrastructure and in particular of new schools ? So Welsh Government as you know has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twentyfirst century schools programme What we heard when we spoke to stakeholders recently particularly headteachers was that in some of the new schools that have been built we have not had changing rooms and toilet facilities for instance built into the new buildings So if we are going to try and utilise these buildings for general community activity to get kids and the wider public actually more active do you think that is something that we ought to be building in ? Again not your particular direct area of responsibility but something that you might have an input into is that when we are developing schools we should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public Is that something that you would be prepared to make a recommendation around ? Dr Frank Atherton: Well it is certainly a fascinating area and one that I think has a lot of potential It goes— You are right to raise it in the context of schools and I can understand why this committee would but I think it goes beyond that actually into all developments in the public sector and how they are developed and whether we are building health into our environment which perhaps is your starting point One of the things that I was really pleased to see in terms of the Public Health Wales Act 2017 that was passed a couple of years ago was the use of health impact assessment as a tool and we are still working on how that will inform policy and how that will be applied in issues such as policy decisions through Government but also in more downstream issues about how we create the public infrastructure that the public can and should be using And so I would like to see the use of health impact assessments to a much greater degree to inform those kinds of decisions If you apply that kind of lens and you take the point which is inherent in your question I think that schools are not just for kids they are for communities then you would—it would lead you to a conclusion that you would perhaps design and build them in a different way So on a personal basis I would certainly support your view that we should be looking to use the sports environment in schools in the same way as we use leisure centres There are all kinds of barriers in there and I understand all of that and it is not really my field exactly as you say but as a matter of principle I think it is a good one to pursue Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you And widening it out to other public services buildings as well","Dawn Bowden AM asked for Dr Frank Atherton's ideas on community sport infrastructure of new schools, and pointed out that Welsh Government has ploughed a huge amount of money into the twenty-first century schools programme. At the end of speech, Dawn Bowden AM thought they should be making sure that they have those kinds of facilities so that they become accessible to the wider public. At the same time, Dawn Bowden AM gave advice on making a recommendation of sports infrastructure to Dr Frank Atherton." "Hefin David AM: Is that all right Chair ? Lynne Neagle AM: You have got the floor Hefin Hefin David AM: Thank you Chair You make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education What would that look like ? Dr Frank Atherton: Just in terms of the physical activity I have to say it is a really important dimension and we need to move further on We know not enough of our children are physically active and they are not meeting the various guidelines so it is really important It does not actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue I would just say that It is really important for all sorts of reasons It does have an impact on healthy weight but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation in terms of mental health issues et cetera you know So—I am sorry I have lost track of your question Nathan Cook: I would just say that one thing we have got in train is obviously Sport Wales Public Health Wales and Natural Resources Wales—we have them working together as a collaborative at the moment to look at how their joint delivery on physical activity can be taken forward more efficiently So one of the things they are looking at is obviously the schools programmes they do through ecoschools the Welsh network of healthy schools and the sports programme to really think about that physical activity and how we can have better join up in terms of the programmes that we are already delivering as well Hefin David AM: With that in mind I am going to confess to you chief medical officer I did anything in school I could to avoid physical education lessons I hated it I did not feel engaged with it Yet two weeks ago I played for the Assembly rugby team—I wanted to get that in The school sports survey that would suggest that we are still not hitting those targets with children How can we get children more engaged with physical education in ways that— ? I felt completely alienated in school Dr Frank Atherton: Well you are right and many people go through that same journey and come to physical activity later in life and that is great if they do that The sad reality is that many people do not and we also know that there are issues around the dropping off particularly for girls of physical activity towards the teenage years So there are specific moments that we need to understand We do have a lot of information about these kinds of things Public Health Wales is very good at collating the information We do need to turn that into programmes I mean at the heart of it it is about making sports and physical activity enjoyable and attractive to people Sometimes that is easier I sense for boys than for girls but we need to tailor things to different audiences Hefin David AM: Yes that is the trick is not it ? It is about finding out what children enjoy doing That could be quite a wide and varied range of things Is that the key ? Dawn Bowden AM: It is not all about organised team sports Hefin David AM: Yes As Dawn said it is not just about organised team sports There are some very individual activities you could do Dr Frank Atherton: Absolutely yes And that is where I think— I am delighted that Sport Wales has moved beyond It is not just about elite sports it is about getting everybody engaged and active in sports and that partnership with Public Health Wales that Nathan talked about is really important because we need a population approach to driving physical activity Hefin David AM: So do you think with that in mind we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? Dr Frank Atherton: Again I would look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance It may well be that that is something that could be considered Hefin David AM: And finally with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? Dr Frank Atherton: I do not have a personal view on that I think it is the quality of the food that kids are getting whether that comes from home or through school and whether it is free or whether it is paid for I think it is the quality of the food that we need to focus on The question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level I think that is a— Hefin David AM: So you think that is more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet Dr Frank Atherton: I think it is important that children have access to food absolutely if that is your question but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what is in that food offer Hefin David AM: But you do not necessarily think universal provision would— Dr Frank Atherton: I do not have a clear view on that I know there is a larger debate about that","Dr Frank Atherton first gave a look at a primary school education embedded with physical activity at an early stage and assures its benefits not only on healthy benefits but also on socialization and mental issues. Then Dr Frank Atherton delivered sparkles on making pupils more engaged with physical education, which was tailoring things to different audiences. When it came to school meals, Dr Frank Atherton did not gave personal views because things related still needed more consultations and surveys." "Hefin David AM: Thank you Chair You make a commitment to embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education What would that look like ? Dr Frank Atherton: Just in terms of the physical activity I have to say it is a really important dimension and we need to move further on We know not enough of our children are physically active and they are not meeting the various guidelines so it is really important It does not actually have as much of an impact on weight as the dietary issue I would just say that It is really important for all sorts of reasons It does have an impact on healthy weight but it has a huge impact in terms of socialisation in terms of mental health issues et cetera you know So—I am sorry I have lost track of your question","Dr Frank Atherton considered that just in terms of the physical activity, it was a really important dimension and they found that their children were not that physically active and couldn't meet the various guidelines. Embedding physical activity at an early stage in primary school education might not have the same effect as the dietary issue did to healthy weight, but it was vital to pupils socialization and mental health." "Hefin David AM: So do you think with that in mind we need statutory guidance for schools on physical education ? Dr Frank Atherton: Again I would look to the consultation as to whether there was an appetite for any kind of guidance It may well be that that is something that could be considered Hefin David AM: And finally with regard to free school meals to all pupils in primary and secondary schools do you think that extending that to all pupils would be beneficial in providing a more varied diet for pupils ? Dr Frank Atherton: I do not have a personal view on that I think it is the quality of the food that kids are getting whether that comes from home or through school and whether it is free or whether it is paid for I think it is the quality of the food that we need to focus on The question of children being hungry at school is a really important one and needs to be addressed at a national level I think that is a— Hefin David AM: So you think that is more about the provision of food for those who might not have access to it than providing a varied diet Dr Frank Atherton: I think it is important that children have access to food absolutely if that is your question but we also need to look at the quality of the food and what is in that food offer Hefin David AM: But you do not necessarily think universal provision would— Dr Frank Atherton: I do not have a clear view on that I know there is a larger debate about that","In fact, Dr Frank Atherton did not give an exact opinion on providing a more varied diet for pupils. It would be something needing consultation and consideration, then they might decide whether it was worth carrying out. The quality of food, rather than preparing school meals or not, was more important to Dr Frank Atherton." "Project Manager: and so here we go it was discussed in the last meeting which was opened by the presentation from the interface designer that looks would be very important on this new remote and it is to send messages of course to the TV It should have nine channel buttons a next button volume buttons subtitle buttons switch to control features colour contrast sharpness etcetera It should have a memory switch a mute button in case the telephone rings or something speech recognition is one of her very f favourite personal features she would like see d d to be integrated in this in this new remote Should be child friendly design with few buttons colourful maybe with s star shaped or other shaped buttons she presented also an oversized remote which she guarantees nobody will ever be able to lose Marketing: And she was challenged on that point","The main function of the remote would be sending messages to the TV. For the interface, it should have nine channel buttons, a next button, volume buttons, subtitle buttons and switches to control features, colour contrast, sharpness etc. Interface Designer said that looks would be very important for the remote so the remote should be child-friendly with few buttons and could be colourful with star-shaped or other shaped buttons. An oversized remote was presented but was challenged by the team. Speech recognition was a feature that Interface Designer wanted to include." Project Manager: But her very f personal favourite really she she would very much like to see a speech recogniser integrated in this remote The industrial designer presented her thoughts on the issue She would like a special case made out of plastic that is very strong not using any harmful materials should be recyclable and should be colourful Should have an integrated circuit board that is highly sophisticated and temperature resistant She would like to see a timer and or alarm facility integrated technically this thing would also have a resistor and a capacitor diode transistor resonator and if possible a rechargeable battery and of course a circuit board And how it would works you press the button the chip is morse morse code related relays the to the generat to the generator amplification and the circuit board is very inexpensive to build and so she thinks this is a great feature to to to consider She would like this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore Should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases The marketing expert who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small easy to use and it should be eye catching From her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does To do that maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on Too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter So we prefer to have one or two features that can be really driven home it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel She feels that is really what people want today And the decision that we took last time was that the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser the energy should be battery should be on a chip should be trendy design compact and strong and should have buttons And that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting Now we are ready for the presentation of the prototype,"Making a recyclable and colourful case out of plastic that was strong without using harmful materials was proposed. For the components, there would be a resistor, a capacitor, a diode transistor, resonator, and if possible, a rechargeable battery. Also, it should have an integrated circuit board that was highly sophisticated, temperature resistant and inexpensive. Furthermore, it was hoped that there would be a timer or alarm. For the working design, morse code would be relayed to the generator for amplification after buttons were pressed. The team thought push buttons were better than scroll wheel as the former was more practical and cheap." Project Manager: She would like this whole thing should be push buttons with a simple chip scrolling method is more expensive and not that practical anymore Should be battery operated and of course she would have the special cases The marketing expert who has to finally come up with to to to market this product has been watching the competition has done some research on the internet and also has used h her personal observations to come up with the fact that such a remote sh should be small easy to use and it should be eye catching From her point of view of course one of the most important facts is that we should get to market before our competition does To do that maybe one or two features should be developed on which we could dwell on or in other words on which our campaign could be built on Too many new features or too many points would only confuse matter So we prefer to have one or two features that can be really driven home it should have a fruit and vegetable design and should have a soft feel She feels that is really what people want today And the decision that we took last time was that the special feature we would like to see is a speech recogniser the energy should be battery should be on a chip should be trendy design compact and strong and should have buttons And that concludes the presentation from the last minutes from the last meeting Now we are ready for the presentation of the prototype,"Apart from being small, easy to use and eye-catching, the remote should have buttons, a soft feel and a trendy design, possibly incorporating fruit and vegetable elements. Marketing proposed having one or two star features that the campaign could be built on and speech recognition could be one of the options. Also, the energy source should be a battery. It was highlighted that the remote should get to the market before the competition." "User Interface: Just the look like the button part I will explain Industrial Designer: so this is our what we have made This is a model of the remote control which we are going to build this is us in a snail shape so it it is attractive and it is it is blue in colour bright and it has yellow buttons and all the different colour buttons so it is a a lookswise it is beautiful and also compact in shape and also i it it will be easily fit into into the hands and you can access all the buttons easily Marketing: You used to have all the buttons Industrial Designer: and the material which we are going to use for the case is plastic and w which which is s strong and also for the the material is plastic and for the buttons it is s soft rubber and als Marketing: no that is nice and friendly Industrial Designer: because you will be touching the buttons more so it is soft when you touch it And then for the for the led for the light emitting diode it is a fluorescent green and it is a a it is a bulb like an ordinary infrared","The prototype was attractive, bright blue and snail shaped with buttons in different colours such as yellow. It was compact so it could easily fit in the hand and buttons could be easily accessed. Moreover, the material for the case would be plastic but the buttons would be made with soft rubber. For the light emitting diode of the LED, it would be fluorescent green and it would be a bulb like an ordinary infrared. Last but not least, there would be an oyster-shaped holder for the remote." "Industrial Designer: And and the button buttons part will be explained by F Francina User Interface: Now the we decided upon including certain features on our remote Now these features includes the s signal emitting signal it is the led or LED the infrared Now we have included the switch on and off button Now we have included another feature that is the mute button on the side of the model Then we have included one to nine buttons for controlling the programmes the different channels We have also included two buttons for increasing or decreasing the volume And we have also included two buttons for scrolling up and scrolling down the programme channels Now our our model also contains a button which is called as the menu button Project Manager: What kind of button ? Menu ? menu th menu one one User Interface: we have included a button which is fluorescent green colour and this is the menu button which will control the colour sharpness brightness Marketing: Mmhmm Of the screen Mm mmhmm User Interface: of this picture We have also included a button which is called as the swapping button Now this is a special special feature which we have included Now this button is an elongated shaped button and this is slightly flexible so if it is turned towards the right it will take to the previous channel if it is turned towards the right it will take to the next channel It will take the user to the previous and the next channel so this is a swapping button Marketing: The next channel in the numeric pattern or User Interface: No swapping is if if example you are you are watching the second channel and then you go to the tenth channel and if you want to go back to the second channel you can swap this button And at the end it this remote has inbuilt voice recogniser which c which will recognise the users voice and then it will act accordingly So this is our proposed model","Features of the remote include signal-emitting LED, on-off switch, mute button, nine channel buttons, two buttons for increasing or decreasing volume, two buttons for scrolling up or down channels and menu button at the centre, which would control the colour, sharpness, brightness etc. Also, there would be an elongated shaped swapping button that was slightly flexible. If it was turned to the left, the TV would change to the previous channel that the user was watching and if to the right, the next channel. The remote has an inbuilt voice recognizer that would recognize the user's voice and act accordingly." "User Interface: Now the marketing expert has to give her suggestion whether it will be sellable or it will be cost effective Marketing: well what what I really like a lot about it is that you can reach the whole thing with one thumb that you can really hold it in one h you do not need two hands and it is easily reachable even for somebody with a small hand ? Project Manager: Yes the buttons are all raised right ? Marketing: The buttons are all raised and if you hold it in the centre of your hand you can even reach it over here so you do not have to turn it around turn it upside down move it up up and down Project Manager: Right Or have two hands to operate it Marketing: You really did a good job on that my little designers and I like the idea that the onoff button is in a really prominent place That is that is a really good good thing Project Manager: Yes and it sort of sticks up so that you really you do not have to g first go like oh here it is on and mmhmm Marketing: The colours very attractive the these buttons around here are the mute User Interface: No these the front buttons which are here are the mute buttons Marketing: and these mmhmm On both sides they are mute ? So you can push either one ? Project Manager: So if you are lefthanded or righthanded it does not matter Marketing: And this brings the menu up on the screen ? User Interface: Pardon me ? This is the menu yes yes Marketing: This brings the menu up on the screen and the orange ones are User Interface: A the the these these two are th to increase or decrease the volumes and these two are to scroll the programme channels Scroll up or scroll down the channels Marketing: Right very good it looks mm looks like something I can sell and now I am supposed to Project Manager: Well I have one question will there be anything written on the buttons like that people know or they have to learn that from a piece of paper which button does what ? User Interface: Yes it will have these buttons will have the numbers and all the rest of the buttons will have symbols Project Manager: Will have symbols so that that that the user really knows you know and does not have to first learn it User Interface: Yes which can be easily recognised Marketing: Good point because we need the symbols because we are going into an international market we can not have anything that is language dependent Project Manager: But anyway it would ha i i i it has to have some kind of of symbols text or something so that people kn Marketing: Symbols on it Mmhmm mmhmm Industrial Designer: Text that we can have on the case itself we can it will be printed on the case and symbols as well as the buttons Project Manager: just wanted make sure of that mmhmm","Marketing liked how users could reach all the buttons with one thumb, even for someone with a small hand, so users did not need to shift it around or operate with two hands. Also, it was good that the on-off button was in a prominent place and the colours of the remote were attractive. Mute buttons were on either side so it would work for left- or right-handed people. On the other hand, channel buttons would be inscribed with numbers and the rest would be marked with easily recognized symbols that would be ideal for the international market." "User Interface: And and one more feature is we we have a holder for this remote which is an oyster shape Marketing: we have the snail she will He goes right back into his she will Well you know I think we could do something really funny with this too because the snail is known to be slow and we could have some sort of little comic effect on our marketing about how this is a rapid snail or something like that you know that would that would really work",Marketing suggested that they could do something funny for the shell as the snail was known to be slow and they could have a comic effect about how this was a rapid snail. User Interface and Industrial Designer agreed. "Project Manager: Now what what are our special features for the marketing ? That is really the voice recognition that is really unusual Marketing: I think voice recognition is our big selling point because nobody else seems to have that in in this price range Project Manager: And then and then the other thing would basically be sh shape or practicality of use Marketing: well I think that everybodys going to say their remote control is practical I think we have to we have to dwell on on on the appearance We are really going to have the be the cutest remote control on the block So I think we have to play with the image play with the snail image play with the visual and then the voice recognition I think those are the two things to push The look and the voice recognition They are going to be our two selling points I am supposed to make a little presentation are not I ?",Voice recognition would be a major selling point as it was unusual and there were no remotes that had this function in the same price range. Another selling point would be its appearance as it would be the cutest remote control. The snail image could be used as a visual attraction. Practicality would not be one of its special features because all competition would feature this. "Project Manager: Now we are going to talk about financing Marketing: Ah but in my instructions I think it said I was supposed to go to the board and do something Project Manager: Well there is a production evaluation But that is after the financing See ? Fi see ? we had looks and voice recognition now on the financing we bring up the mm there it is energy source we say that is battery right ? now So we I guess we use one What ? T cell or chart you are trying to change is protected Well that is nice She told me I could just ch change it here and then it would It does not work Marketing: Can you just fill it in in the yellow boxes ? Or Project Manager: Oh go away kinetic source so that is in the energy source that is all we need electronics simple chip on print ? Is that is what we are using ? Come on one regular chip on print No That is all we need the one case uncurved flat single curved double curved Marketing: I guess it is double curved Project Manager: Double curved ? One of those ? Case materi s supplements Plastic we said right ? Marketing: Rubber because we are going to have the soft buttons Industrial Designer: I think that is f for rubbers that is case material Project Manager: That is just for the case material User Interface: Is this for the case ? Yes Project Manager: so special colours though we having that Marketing: Oh the mmhmm mm kay Project Manager: And then we have to interface push buttons Scroll wheel no Integrated scroll wheel LC display ? Marketing: because we did not put the clock in it after all right ? Project Manager: button supplement special colour ? User Interface: Yes d we do have special form Project Manager: And special material rubber wood yes Total seven point six whatever that means Industrial Designer: I think that is the price User Interface: One two three four five six seven eight nine Industrial Designer: Maybe it is it just n Project Manager: Eight eight point two That is Eight point two right ? So we looks like we are well within budget","Battery would be the energy source and the electronics would be regular chips on print. For the case, it would be double-curved and made from plastic in special colours, whereas buttons would come in different forms and colour and would be made in rubber or wood. In addition, there would be no clock. With the cost of eight twenty, the remote was within budget with the cost of voice recognizer excluded. Only four thirty euros was left to cover it so they would have to settle with what they get within the budget with no money for other special features." "Project Manager: Now we would like to have a presentation by the marketing expert on production evaluation Marketing: I will take my file down so you can bring it up Kay should be able to get it now Kay why do not you move just to the next slide right away Project Manager: You want to go to the next slide ? Marketing: well obviously my method for s m the marketing of this thing is first to ask the big question will it sell ? And I think we should show this prototype to people from various age and socioeconomic groups and see about any fine tuning that maybe little things we have not thought of We can not accept every suggestion of course but maybe we just need to get a few And show the the prototype to consumer research groups we do not s want somebody to suddenly come to us and tell us that this button is toxic and you know some child will swallow it and then we will not sell any So we have to get some input from those people And then after that we just have to go with our best intuition and you know we like it we think it is good we are going to get behind it and sell it next slide please now the things that I was thinking and th my wish list has really been realised in this prototype I wanted the shape to be biomorphic I did not want anything with angles and all square I wanted it to be comfy and roundy so we we have got that The size is small the colours bright and warm which is what we wanted We wanted the feel to be as soft as possible we will have the soft buttons and the way this is shaped even though it is going to be hard plastic it feels good in your hand so that is nice And functionality I put last on my list because people are not going to use it before they buy it So paradoxically the other features in other words the look the feel and the shape that is what people are going to get in the store They do not have a television in the store they can not play with it so they will be our main selling points So th those have been fulfilled by your prototype and go ahead to the next slide please so the shape I think is a a one That is really really excellent shape The size is small and th these points are in the importance for the for the marketing these are not i in how I feel I think that it is I think that it is plenty small enough to sell but I think we are sort of right the scale is one to seven I think we are sort of right in the middle as far as c other competitors And our colour I think is great The colours are bright and warm and we really do great job there And given the constraints that we had I think we got it as soft as possible And then functionality I think you did a really good job on functionality obviously we could have ad added different functions but then we would disturb something else so I would say that we got to a five out of seven on on functionality So I think that basically we have got a great product and we can get off and running with it","The prototype should be shown to people of various age and socio-economic groups to see if there should be any fine-tuning. Also, it should be shown to consumer research groups for feedback. Marketing concluded that the prototype reached the goal of being biomorphic, soft and compact with bright and warm colours and felt good in hands. All in all, Marketing believed that it was a great product and would be saleable in the market." "Marketing: Go ahead I think that was my last slide Mm And I am supposed to present this scale on the whiteboard and we are supposed to talk about those things as a team now so if you put my last slide back up there I am sorry I have forgot to do that Project Manager: Why ? Wh why you need that up ? Marketing: ? Well because I can not remember what I put on there Now I am supposed to see how long my leash is here Project Manager: I think you can make it there Marketing: Mm kay You ready So now we are all supposed to say what we think so on shape I gave it a one Wait what would you ra one being good and seven being the worst what do you think the shape is ? One and Be Betsy ? Project Manager: Yes I think shape is one Industrial Designer: even my shape is one Marketing: uhhuh one And how about on size ? On size Project Manager: You you gave it a four Marketing: I gave it a four I feel it is just average Project Manager: I do not know I think I would give it at least a two Industrial Designer: even I think it is one It is quite small Marketing: you are the designer of course you want to give it a one and then how about how we doing on colour ? Colour I gave it a one I really like all those nice bright warm colours Project Manager: I I like the colours One Marketing: One one one And how about the feel ? Taking into consideration texture and comfort in the hand Project Manager: I think I would give it a two Marketing: I gave it a three two And the next is functionality where I I admit I was a little hard on our team here but Project Manager: Well it is also you can not really try it out the other things you have have more is are more tangible so from that point of view but I will give it a three Marketing: Three ? Well It looks like we have got got ourselves a pretty good product the functionalitys the only place where maybe we have to think about m m maybe heaven forbid having another meeting","On a scale of one to seven, with one being good and seven being the worst, everyone rated the shape and colour of the remote with a one. The size was given a mark of four by Marketing, a two by Project Manager and the others gave it a one. For the feel, which included texture and comfort, it scored a three with User Interface and a two for the rest. Functionality was given a two by User Interface and Marketing and a three by the other two. All in all, the team was satisfied with the product." "Marketing: But otherwise I think we are we are ready to go to go with this product Anybody else have any other comments or any other things that we feel we should evaluate ? Project Manager: Here is what we looking at satisfaction on for example room for creativity Is there more room for creativity or are we absolutely happy ? User Interface: We can always improve yes Industrial Designer: Maybe we can include some more buttons and features We can make the buttons few buttons smaller I think they are quite big so I think I I mean we can just have small buttons and more buttons in that case If we want to have more features than that Marketing: Mmhmm Well then again if we are going to do the speech recognition thing we are gon there going to be some buttons that are going to have to be added for that for the recording of the the speech So that that is where we are going to have to do maybe we can eliminate one of the mute buttons instead of having two mute buttons Industrial Designer: definitely two mu mute buttons Marketing: And then maybe we can do something with the the volume control Maybe we can put that all on one button and a couple of other th maybe comp consolidate some of the usage an and see what we can do with that Project Manager: Y al always bearing in mind that right now we are of course well within the budget and that we still you know we probably can not with this particular item we probably can not just add a whole lot of more things we need you know we need to leave space moneywise for the voice recogniser","Industrial Designer suggested that there could be more buttons and the buttons could be smaller. If having the speech recognition feature was feasible, buttons would be added for recording speech so Marketing suggested that one of the mute buttons could be eliminated to make room and Industrial Designer and User Interface agreed. Marketing also suggested volume control could be put on one button." "Project Manager: and then the next question is are we happy with the leadership of this project ? Marketing: I think you have done a good job Miss leader User Interface: Yes yes you have done a good job Project Manager: And I think team work I think was very very good I think we really Marketing: I d I do too I think we worked well together as a team Mmhmm Project Manager: And I think we are we happy with the means we used ? We used whiteboard we did not use digital p well digital pens I guess are these things Marketing: maybe we could have used the whiteboard a little bit more we did not use that enough Project Manager: Yes we could it is maybe not in the best position in the room you know like sometimes it is positioned so that it is much better visible for everybody and I think from that point of view we sort of ignored it a little bit Marketing: And we used the slide because it was better positioned Project Manager: Yes I think so I think absolutely Marketing: Mm I think that is true mmhmm Project Manager: and fortunately we all had slides presentation which made it a little easier","Marketing, User Interface and Industrial Designer thought Project Manager did a good job. Project Manager believed that the teamwork was great and this opinion was echoed by the other three team members. Whiteboard was used during the meeting but digital pens were not and the team agreed that they could have used the whiteboard a bit more. The team mostly used the slide because it was better positioned." "Postdoc G: I had thought under my topic that I would mention the four items that I I put out for being on the agenda f on that meeting which includes like the pre segmentation and the and the developments in multitrans Professor B: Oh under the NIST meeting Alright why do not we start off with this you you I guess the order we brought them up seems fine so better quality close talking mikes So the one issue was that the the lapel mike is not as good as you would like And so it it would be better if we had close talking mikes for everybody Right ? Is that is that basically the point ? PhD A: the And actually in addition to that that the the close talking mikes are worn in such a way as to best capture the signal And the reason here is just that for the people doing work not on microphones but on sort of like dialogue and so forth or and even on prosody which Don is going to be working on soon it adds this extra you know vari variable for each speaker to to deal with when the microphones are not similar So And I also talked to Mari this morning and she also had a strong preference for doing that And in fact she said that that s useful for them to know in starting to collect their data too Professor B: Mm Right so one th","Use of dissimilar microphones adds an extra, unwanted variable to individual speaker recordings. Similarly, differences in the type of recording equipment used and the manner in which microphones are worn by speakers causes problems for the transcription effort. " "Grad H: Is he involved in Ach ! comment I m blanking on the name of the project NIST has has done a big meeting room instrumented meeting room with video and microphone arrays and very elaborate software Is is he the one working on that ? Professor B: Well that s what they are starting up No I mean that s what all this is about They they have not done it yet They wanted to do it Grad H: OK I had read some papers that looked like they had already done some work Professor B: well I think they ve instrumented a room but I do not pause think they they have not started recordings yet They do not have the t the transcription standards They do not have the PhD E: Are they going to do video as well ? Grad H: Oh cuz what what I had read was they had a very large amount of software infrastructure for coordinating all this both in terms of recording and also live room where you are interacting the participants are interacting with the computer and with the video and lots of other stuff Professor B: Well I m I m I m not sure All all I know is that they ve been talking to me about a project that they are going to start up recording people meet in meetings And it is related to ours They were interested in ours They wanted to get some uniformity with us about the transcriptions and so on",Setting up a microphone array and performing video recordings (in a possible collaboration with NIST) are problematic due to the types of changes in infrastructure they require. "Professor B: So so we should go out to our full complement of whatever we can do but have them all be the same mike I think the original reason that it was done the other way was because it w it was sort of an experimental thing and I do not think anybody knew whether people would rather have more variety or or more uniformity but comment but sounds sounds fine PhD A: Well for short term research it s just there s just so much effort that would have to be done up front n so uniformity would be great PhD E: Is it because You you are saying the for dialogue purposes so that means that the transcribers are having trouble with those mikes ? Is that what you mean ? PhD A: Well Jane would know more about the transcribers Postdoc G: And that s true I mean I we did discuss this and and a couple times so the transcribers notice And in fact there are some where ugh well I mean there s it s the double thing It s the equipment and also how it s worn","To achieve greater uniformity in across-speaker recording conditions, the group decided to purchase three additional head-mounted microphones. " "Grad H: Nu it s mostly it s for their speech recognition products PhD E: But are not they are Grad H: that they ve hired these people to do PhD E: Oh so they are hiring them they are coming It s not a service they send the tapes out to Grad H: Well they they do send it out but my understanding is that that s all this company does is transcriptions for IBM for their speech product PhD E: Ah ! Oh OK I gotcha Grad H: So most of it s ViaVoice people reading their training material for that Postdoc G: Up to now it s been monologues as far my understood And and what they are doing is Brian himself downloaded So So Adam sent them a CD and Brian himself downloaded cuz you know I mean we wanted to have it so that they were in familiar f terms with what they wanted to do He downloaded pause from the CD onto audio tapes And apparently he did it one channel per audio tape So each of these people is pause transcribing from one channel And then what he s going to do is check it a before they go be beyond the first one Check it and you know adjust it and all that PhD E: So each person gets one of these channels Professor B: So if they hear something off in the distance they do not they just go","IBM has a team of people employed to transcribe meeting data, and who are transcribing single versus multiple channels." "Postdoc G: They would be really good They are they are very they are very consistent I wanted to whi while we are so to return just briefly to this question of more meeting data I have two questions One of them is Jerry Feldman s group they they are they I know that they recorded one meeting Are they willing ? Professor B: I think they are open to it I think you know all these things are I think there s we should go beyond ICSI but I mean there s a lot of stuff happening at ICSI that we are not getting now that we could PhD A: OK I thought that all these people had sort of said `` no `` twice already If that s not the case then Professor B: No no No So th there was the thing in Fillmore s group but even there he had not What he would said `` no `` to was for the main meeting But they have several smaller meetings a week and the notion was raised before that that could happen And it just you know it just did not come together PhD E: Well and and the other thing too is when they originally said `` no `` they did not know about this post editing capability thing PhD A: Right That was a big fear Professor B: so I mean there s possibilities there I think Jerry s group yes there s there s the networks group I do not Do they still meeting regularly or ? Grad H: Well I do not know if they meet regularly or not but they are no longer recording Professor B: But I mean ha ha have they said they do not want to anymore or ? Grad H: ugh what was his name ? When with him gone it sorta trickled off Professor B: OK so they are down to three or four people","The group discussed the potential for assigning additional tasks to ICSI's transcriber pool, including tagging more fine-grained acoustic information, and discourse and disfluency tagging. " "Postdoc G: Hope so But the pre segmentation really helps a huge amount And also Dan Ellis s innovation of the the multi channel to here really helped a r a lot in terms of clearing clearing up h hearings that involve overlaps But just out of curiosity I asked one of them how long pause it was taking her one of these two who has already finished her data set She said it takes about sixty minutes transcription for every five minutes of real time So it s about twelve to one which is what we were thinking It s well in the range OK these still when they are finished that means that they are finished with their pass through They still need to be edited and all but But it s word level speaker change the things that were mentioned OK now I wanted to mention the teleconference I had with Jonathan Fiscus We spoke for an hour and a half and had an awful lot of things in common He he in indicated to me that they ve that he s been looking spending a lot of time with I m not quite sure the connection but spending a lot of time with the ATLAS system And I guess that I mean I I need to read up on that And there s a web site that has lots of papers But it looks to me like that s the name that has developed for the system that Bird and Liberman developed comment for the annotated pause graphs approach So what he wants me to do and what we what we will do and is to provide them with the you already transcribed meeting for him to be able to experiment with in this ATLAS System And they do have some sort of software at least that s my impression related to ATLAS and that he wants to experiment with taking our data and putting them in that format and see how that works out I I I explained to him in in detail the conventions that we are using here in this in this word level transcript And you know I I explained you know the reasons that that we were not coding more elaborately and and the focus on reliability He expressed a lot of interest in reliability It s like he s he s really up on these things He s he s very independently he asked `` well what about reliability ? `` So he s interested in the consistency of the encoding and that sort of thing OK PhD A: Sorry can you explain what the ATLAS I m not familiar with this ATLAS system",The transcriber pool has been performing within the expected range of work completed per the amount of time spent transcribing. "PhD F: Start and end of each ? Grad H: So it s implicit in in there but you have to do a lot of processing to get it And so and also I would like to do the indirect time line business but regardless I mean w that s something that you me and Jane can talk about later but I ve installed XML tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files either information on users because the user database is that way I m converting the Key files to XML so that you can extract m various inf sorted information on individual meetings and then also the transcripts And so l just let me know there it s mostly Java and Perl but we can get other languages too if if that s desirable PhD G: Oh quick question on that Is do we have the the seat information ? In in the Key files now ? Grad H: The seat information is on the Key files for the ones which PhD G: Oh in For the new one Grad H: Where where you are sitting Professor B: Oh ! Not not the quality or anything No Grad H: `` It s pretty soft and squishy `` Oh but that might just be me Professor B: That s more seat information than we wanted PhD G: I m just trying to figure out you know when Morgan s voice appears on someone s microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? Grad H: Maybe we should bleep that out PhD F: how how w eh where is it in the Key file ? PhD G: Cuz I mean I have not been putting it in and in by Grad H: You have not been putting it in Postdoc A: Is not it always on the digits ? Professor B: Some of these are missing Postdoc A: Is not it always on the digits forms ? Grad H: so we can go back and fill them in for the ones we have PhD G: I mean they are on th right these but I just had not ever been putting it in the Key files And I do not think Chuck was either PhD F: I never knew we were supposed to put it in the Key file Grad H: I had told you guys about it PhD G: Oh so we are both sorry Grad H: I mean this is why I want to use a g a tool to do it rather than the plain text because with the plain text it s very easy to skip those things So if you use the Edit key or Key edit I think it s Edit key comment command Did I show you guys that ? I did show it to you but I think you both said `` no you will just use text file `` it has it in there a place to fill it in and so if you do not fill it in you are not going to get it in the meetings PhD G: So if Right Well I I just realized I had not been doing it Grad H: and then the other thing also that Thilo noticed is on the microphone on channel zero it says hand held mike or Crown mike you actually have to say which one PhD G: I know I usually delete the PhD F: Oh ! OK I did not do that either PhD G: maybe I forgot to d PhD F: Takes me no time at all to edit these Grad H: that s cuz you kn PhD F: I m not doing anything PhD G: And I was I was looking at Chuck s like `` oh what did Chuck do OK I will do that `` So Grad H: And then also in a couple of places instead of filling the participants under `` participants `` they were filled in under `` description `` And so that s also a problem So anyway That s it Oh also I m working on another version of this tool the the one that shows up here comment that will flash yellow if the mike is not connected And it s not quite ready to go yet because it s hard to tell whether the mike s connected or not because the best quality ones the Crown ones comment are about the same level if they are off and no one s o off or if they are on and no one s talking these these ones they are much easier there s a bigger difference So I m working on that and it it sorta works and so eventually we will change to that and then you will be able to see graphically if your mike is dropping in or out Grad C: Will that also include like batteries dying ? Just a any time the mike s putting out zeros basically PhD F: But with the screensaver kicking in it Grad H: Well I will turn off the screensaver too the other thing is as I ve said before it is actually on the thing There s a little level meter but of course no one ever pays attention to it So I think having it on the screen is more easy to notice Postdoc A: It would be nice if if these had little light indicators little L E Ds for Grad H: `` Bamp bamp ! `` Professor B: administered to the OK Oh","The team had started moving to XML as their general format to standardize their data. Though, there is still concern about the limitations of XML. The participants noted that sometimes the mic of one subject catches sound from another. They also discussed implementing tools to help participants know when the quality of their audio is bad." "Grad H: And so if a mistake is made and we lose the backup we should have the archive and if then a mistake is made and we lose the archive we should have the backup Professor B: Well I guess it is true that even with something that s backed up it s not going to if it s stationary it s not going to go through the increment it s not going to burden things in the incremental backups Grad H: Just just the monthly full Professor B: so the monthly full will be a bear but Grad H: But he said that that we sh should not worry too much about that that we are getting a new backup system and we are far enough away from saturation on full backups that it s w probably OK And so the only issue here is the timing between getting more disks and recording meetings Professor B: So I guess the idea is that we would be reserving the non backed up space for things that took less than twenty four hours to recreate or something like that right ? Grad H: Things that are recreatable easily and also basically things that are recreatable The expanded files and things like that They take up a lot more room anyway but we do need more disk Professor B: So we can get more disk So Grad H: And I I think I agree with him I mean his point was well taken that if we lose one of these we can not get it back I do not think there was any other et cetera there Professor B: Well I was allowing someone else to come up with something related that they had PhD E: I thought you guys were going to burn C Ds ? Grad H: unfortunately we could burn C Ds but first of all it s a pain Because you have to copy it down to the PC and then burn it and that s a multi step procedure And second of all the the write once burners as opposed to a professional press do not last So I think burning them for distribution is fine but burning them for backup is not a good idea Cuz th they they fail after a couple years Postdoc A: I do have It s a different topic Can I add one top topic ? We have time ? I wanted to ask I know that that Thilo you were bringing the Channeltrans interface onto the Windows machine ? And I wanted to know is th PhD D: it s it Basically it s done Postdoc A: It s all done ? That s g wonderful Great Grad H: Yes since Tcl TK runs on it basically things will just work PhD D: it it was just a problem with the Snack version and the Transcriber version but it s solved Postdoc A: Does and that does that mean I maybe I should know this but I do not Does this mean that the that this could be por ported to a Think Pad note or some other type of PhD D: basically I did install it on my laptop and Professor B: ! Good CrossPads ? CrossPads ? Grad H: got an email from James Landay who basically said `` if you are not using them could you return them ? `` So he said he does not need them he just periodically w at the end of each term sends out email to everyone who was recorded as having them and asks them if they are still using them Professor B: So we ve never used them Grad H: We we used them a couple times PhD F: Them ? There s more than one ? Grad H: My opinion on it is first I never take notes anyway so I m not going to use it and second it s another level of infrastructure that we have to deal with Postdoc A: And I have so my my feeling on it is that I think in principle it s a really nice idea and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes On the other hand I the down side for me was that I think the pen is really noisy So you have ka kaplunk kaplunk kaplunk And I and I do not know if it s audible on the but I I sort of thought that was a disadvantage I do take notes I mean I could be taking notes on these things and I guess the plus with the CrossPads would be the time markings but I do not know PhD D: what is a CrossPad ? Professor B: So it s it s it s a regular pad just a regular pad of paper but there s this pen which indicates position And so you have time and position stuff stored so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you ve written Grad H: And then you can download it and they have OCR and searching and all sorts of things So i if you take notes it s a great little device But I do not take notes Professor B: And one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because we were interested in in higher level things not just the you know microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know where would it come from ? And I think that was one of the things right ? And so the it seemed like a neat idea We will have a you know have a scribe have somebody take good notes and then that s part of the record of the meeting And then we did it once or twice and we sort of Grad H: Yep and then just sort of died out Professor B: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was It s Postdoc A: Well I did it one time you but I guess the the other thing I m thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing I wonder if we would lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface PhD F: I mean we are transcribing it anyways why do we need notes ? Postdoc A: Oh it s la it s useful have a summary and high points PhD G: I think there s also there s this use that PhD F: Summarize it from the transcription PhD G: the Well what if you are sitting there and you just want to make an X and you do not want to take notes and you are you just want to get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know and and then while you are bored you do not do anything and once in a while maybe there s a joke and you put a X and comment But in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way Also with I was thinking and I know Morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you want to let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not want to distribute in terms of content they could just sort of make an X near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it So I know we have not been using it but I w I can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods which you then get back in a transcript Professor B: I guess so you know what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later and and and put some kind of summary or something you know some there would be some scribe who would actually listen w who would agreed to actually listen to the whole thing not transcribe it but just sort of write down things that struck them as important But then you do not you do not have the time reference that you would have if you had it live PhD G: Right And you do not have a lot of other cues that might be useful PhD F: How do you synchronize the time in the CrossPad and the time of the recording ? Grad H: I mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that s w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the CrossPads and so that means synchronizing the time You know you want it pretty close and there s a fair amount of skew because it s a hand held unit with a battery Postdoc A: Well when when I d Grad H: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used so that it s synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you want to do anything with this information And so there s a lot of infrastructure which Postdoc A: There is an alternative I mean it s still there s you know your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure but it does not have to be synchronized with the little clock s timer on it You c I mean I when I when I did it I synchronized it by voice by whispering `` one two three four `` onto the microphone Grad H: Well but then there s the infrastructure at the other end which someone has to listen to that and find that point Postdoc A: it s transcribed It s in the transcript Well it s in the transcript PhD G: Well could we keep one of these things for another year ? Would h I mean is there a big cau Grad H: We can keep all both of them for the whole whole year PhD G: just just in case we Grad H: I mean it s just PhD G: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate f just there s a bunch of things that might be neat to do but I it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out Professor B: Well one thing that we might try is on some set of meetings some collection of meetings maybe EDU is the right one or maybe something else we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task I mean part of the reason I think part of the reason that Adam was so interested in the SpeechCorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and and so forth so and and Jane is more into it but eh you know I do not know if you want to really do do this all the time so I think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it and if so it s probably worth having one The p the the problem with the the more extended view all these other you know with quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it s hard to get people to routinely use it I mean it just has not happened anyway But maybe if we can get a person to PhD G: I do not think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful neat part of the project that we can you know show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just want to make a note of like what Jane was talking about with some later browsing just just as a convenience even if it s not a full blown note taking substitute PhD E: Well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a PDA with a wireless card And and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you will be synchroni you can synchronize with the the Linux server and PhD G: So what kind of input would you be ? PhD E: so so I mean if you are not worried about PhD G: You would just be pressing like a a PhD E: Well well you have a PDA and may and you could have the same sort of X interface or whatever I mean you would have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it I mean if if all you really wanted was you did not want this secondary note taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort a PDA with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go I mean even buttons you could do sort of I mean as you said Grad H: I mean for what what you ve been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else PhD G: That would be fine too Grad H: right ? You have the PhD G: I mean I do not have you know grandiose ideas in mind but I m just sort of thinking well we ve we are getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and Postdoc A: I like this PDA idea Professor B: I do like the idea of having a couple buttons Grad H: Well I m sure there would Professor B: where like one one button was `` oh `` and then another button was `` that s great `` and another button `` that s f `` PhD G: Or like this is my `` I m supposed to do this `` kind of button like `` I better remember to `` Grad H: I mean I think the CrossPad idea is a good one It s just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it s not a lot of extra work I mean that s part of the reason why it has not happened is that it s been a lot of extra work for me Postdoc A: Well and not just for you But it s also it has this problem of having to go from an analog to a d a digital record too does not it ? I mean Grad H: Well it s digital but it s in a format that is not particularly standard Postdoc A: But I mean say if i if if you are writing if you are writing notes in it does it it can not do handwriting recognition right ? Professor B: No no but it s just it s just storing the pixel informa position information Postdoc A: I I guess what I m thinking is that the PDA solution you h you have it already without needing to go from the pixelization to a to a I mean Professor B: Right You do not have to PhD E: The transfer function is less errorful PhD G: Well it also it s maybe realistic cuz people are supposed to be bringing their P D As to the meeting eventually right ? That s why we have this little I do not know what I do not want to because more work for anyone but I can imagine some interesting things that you could do with it and so if we do not have to return it and we can keep it for a year I do not know Grad H: Well w we do not we certainly do not have to return it as I said All all he said is that if you are not using it could you return it if you are using it feel free to keep it The point is that we have not used it at all and are we going to ? Professor B: So we have no but by I I would suggest you return one Because we we you know we we have not used it at all We have some aspirations of using them PhD G: One would probably be fine Maybe we could do like a student project you know maybe someone who wants to do this as their main like s project for something would be cool Grad H: Yep I mean if we had them out and sitting on the table people might use them a little more Professor B: Maybe Jeremy could sit in some meetings and press a button when there when when somebody laughed Grad H: although there is a little PhD G: Well I m that s not a bad Jeremy s going to be an he s a new student starting on modeling brea breath and laughter actually which sounds funny but I think it should be cool OK `` Ha ha ha `` Grad H: Breath and lau `` ha ha ha ha `` `` Ha ha ha ha `` That reminded me of something Oh well too late It slipped out PhD G: You are you are going to tease me ? Grad H: Ordered well I m always going to do that W comment We ordered more wireless and so they should be coming in at some point And then at the same time I will probably rewire the room as per Jane s suggestion so that the first N channels are wireless eh are the m the close talking and the next N are far field Professor B: You know what he means but is not that funny sounding ? `` We ordered more wireless `` It s like wires are the things so you are wiring you are you are you we are we ordered more absence of the thing PhD G: That s a very philosophical statement from Morgan I just it s sort of a anachronism I mean it s like It s great Grad H: Should we do digits ? Do we have anything else ? Professor B: I mean there s there s all this stuff going on between Andreas and and and Dave and Chuck and others with various kinds of runs recognition runs trying to figure things out about the features but it s it s all sort of in process so there s not much to say right now why do not we start with our our esteemed guest Grad H: So just the transcript number and then the then the PhD E: This is Yes this is number two for me today Professor B: See all you have to do is go away to move way up in the PhD G: We could do simultaneous Initiate him Grad H: Should we do simultaneous ? PhD G: Well I m just thinking are you going to try to save the data before this next group comes in ? so we might want to do it simultaneous Grad H: I mean you hav sorta have to Professor B: Well OK so let s do one of those simultaneous ones PhD G: Right so so we might n we might need to do that actually","The team agreed that it was important to keep good backups. Their main concern was the time difference between getting more disks and recording new meetings. They did not want to rely on burning CD's at all because of potential loss of data. They also started discussing whether it would be a good idea to collect meeting notes from the participants as well, but that would entail installing new infrastructure." "PhD F: Start and end of each ? Grad H: So it s implicit in in there but you have to do a lot of processing to get it And so and also I would like to do the indirect time line business but regardless I mean w that s something that you me and Jane can talk about later but I ve installed XML tools of various sorts in various languages and so if people are interested in doing extracting any information from any of these files either information on users because the user database is that way I m converting the Key files to XML so that you can extract m various inf sorted information on individual meetings and then also the transcripts And so l just let me know there it s mostly Java and Perl but we can get other languages too if if that s desirable PhD G: Oh quick question on that Is do we have the the seat information ? In in the Key files now ?","Grad H brought up that they were standardizing the data in XML, though Grad H was not satisfied with the current data format. Grad H was also building tools to extract information from XML's in various languages, mainly Java and Perl." "Grad H: The seat information is on the Key files for the ones which PhD G: Oh in For the new one Grad H: Where where you are sitting Professor B: Oh ! Not not the quality or anything No Grad H: `` It s pretty soft and squishy `` Oh but that might just be me Professor B: That s more seat information than we wanted PhD G: I m just trying to figure out you know when Morgan s voice appears on someone s microphone are they next to him or are they across from him ? Grad H: Maybe we should bleep that out",Grad G thought that it would be important to collect seat information in the key files to know where someone was sitting. This would be useful when people had to be bleeped out upon being heard in someone else's microphone. Grad G wanted to figure out what seating arrangements led to other participants' voices showing up in the microphone. "PhD G: get the summary of the transcript from this time location like you know and and then while you are bored you do not do anything and once in a while maybe there s a joke and you put a X and comment But in in other words you can use that just to highlight times in a very simple way Also with I was thinking and I know Morgan disagrees with me on this but suppose you have a group in here and you want to let them note whenever they think there might be something later that they might not want to distribute in terms of content they could just sort of make an X near that point or a question mark that sort of alerts them that when they get the transcript back they c could get some red flags in that transcript region and they can then look at it So I know we have not been using it but I w I can imagine it being useful just for sort of marking time periods which you then get back in a transcript Professor B: I guess so you know what what makes one think i is maybe we should actually schedule some periods where people go over something later and and and put some kind of summary or something you know some there would be some scribe who would actually listen w who would agreed to actually listen to the whole thing not transcribe it but just sort of write down things that struck them as important But then you do not you do not have the time reference that you would have if you had it live PhD G: Right And you do not have a lot of other cues that might be useful PhD F: How do you synchronize the time in the CrossPad and the time of the recording ? Grad H: I mean that was one of the issues we talked about originally and that that s w part of the difficulty is that we need an infrastructure for using the time the CrossPads and so that means synchronizing the time You know you want it pretty close and there s a fair amount of skew because it s a hand held unit with a battery Postdoc A: Well when when I d Grad H: so you have to synchronize at the beginning of each meeting all the pads that are being used so that it s synchronized with the time on that and then you have to download to an application and then you have to figure out what the data formats are and convert it over if you want to do anything with this information And so there s a lot of infrastructure which Postdoc A: There is an alternative I mean it s still there s you know your point stands about there be needing to be an infrastructure but it does not have to be synchronized with the little clock s timer on it You c I mean I when I when I did it I synchronized it by voice by whispering `` one two three four `` onto the microphone Grad H: Well but then there s the infrastructure at the other end which someone has to listen to that and find that point Postdoc A: it s transcribed It s in the transcript Well it s in the transcript PhD G: Well could we keep one of these things for another year ? Would h I mean is there a big cau Grad H: We can keep all both of them for the whole whole year PhD G: just just in case we Grad H: I mean it s just PhD G: even maybe some of the transcribers who might be wanting to annotate f just there s a bunch of things that might be neat to do but I it might not be the case that we can actually synchronize them and then do all the infrastructure but we could at least try it out Professor B: Well one thing that we might try is on some set of meetings some collection of meetings maybe EDU is the right one or maybe something else we we get somebody to buy into the idea of doing this as part of the task I mean part of the reason I think part of the reason that Adam was so interested in the SpeechCorder sort of f idea from the beginning is he said from the beginning he hated taking notes and and so forth so and and Jane is more into it but eh you know I do not know if you want to really do do this all the time so I think the thing is to to get someone to actually buy into it and have at least some series of meetings where we do it and if so it s probably worth having one The p the the problem with the the more extended view all these other you know with quibbling about particular applications of it is that it looks like it s hard to get people to routinely use it I mean it just has not happened anyway But maybe if we can get a person to PhD G: I do not think it has to be part of a what everybody does in a meeting but it might be a useful neat part of the project that we can you know show off as a mechanism for synchronizing events in time that happen that you just want to make a note of like what Jane was talking about with some later browsing just just as a convenience even if it s not a full blown note taking substitute PhD E: Well if you wanted to do that maybe the right architecture for it is to get a PDA with a wireless card And and that way you can synchronize very easily with the the the meeting because you will be synchroni you can synchronize with the the Linux server and PhD G: So what kind of input would you be ? PhD E: so so I mean if you are not worried about PhD G: You would just be pressing like a a PhD E: Well well you have a PDA and may and you could have the same sort of X interface or whatever I mean you would have to do a little eh a little bit of coding to do it I mean if if all you really wanted was you did not want this secondary note taking channel but just sort of being able to use m markers of some sort a PDA with a l a wireless card would be the probably the right way to go I mean even buttons you could do sort of I mean as you said Grad H: I mean for what what you ve been describing buttons would be even more convenient than anything else PhD G: That would be fine too Grad H: right ? You have the PhD G: I mean I do not have you know grandiose ideas in mind but I m just sort of thinking well we ve we are getting into the next year now and we have a lot of these things worked out at in terms of the speech maybe somebody will be interested in this and Postdoc A: I like this PDA idea Professor B: I do like the idea of having a couple buttons Grad H: Well I m sure there would Professor B: where like one one button was `` oh `` and then another button was `` that s great `` and another button `` that s f `` PhD G: Or like this is my `` I m supposed to do this `` kind of button like `` I better remember to `` Grad H: I mean I think the CrossPad idea is a good one It s just a question of getting people to use it and getting the infrastructure set up in such a way that it s not a lot of extra work I mean that s part of the reason why it has not happened is that it s been a lot of extra work for me","Grad G thought that it would be helpful to let the participants conveniently bleep things out during the meeting. While synchronizing bleeps from during the meeting would require some infrastructure, a faster version could be set up. Though, G did think that the synchronization infrastructure would be a useful addition." "Postdoc A: And I have so my my feeling on it is that I think in principle it s a really nice idea and you have the time tags which makes it better tha than just taking ra raw notes On the other hand I the down side for me was that I think the pen is really noisy So you have ka kaplunk kaplunk kaplunk And I and I do not know if it s audible on the but I I sort of thought that was a disadvantage I do take notes I mean I could be taking notes on these things and I guess the plus with the CrossPads would be the time markings but I do not know PhD D: what is a CrossPad ? Professor B: So it s it s it s a regular pad just a regular pad of paper but there s this pen which indicates position And so you have time and position stuff stored so that you can you have a record of whatever it is you ve written Grad H: And then you can download it and they have OCR and searching and all sorts of things So i if you take notes it s a great little device But I do not take notes Professor B: And one of the reasons that it was brought up originally was because we were interested in in higher level things not just the you know microphone stuff but also summarization and so forth and the question is if you were going to go to some gold standard of what wa what was it that happened in the meeting you know where would it come from ? And I think that was one of the things right ? And so the it seemed like a neat idea We will have a you know have a scribe have somebody take good notes and then that s part of the record of the meeting And then we did it once or twice and we sort of Grad H: Yep and then just sort of died out Professor B: probably chose the wrong scribe but it was It s Postdoc A: Well I did it one time you but I guess the the other thing I m thinking is if we wanted that kind of thing I wonder if we would lose that much by having someone be a scribe by listening to the tape to the recording afterwards and taking notes in some other interface PhD F: I mean we are transcribing it anyways why do we need notes ? Postdoc A: Oh it s la it s useful have a summary and high points","The postdoc thought that it was a good idea to collect digital notes during the meeting in principle, but was concerned about the noise it would add to the mic. Postdoc thought that notes could even be taken after the meeting, by transcribers. All in all, he thought notes were useful for generating summaries." "Professor A: OK so had some interesting mail from Dan Ellis Actually I think he he redirected it to everybody also so the PDA mikes have a big bunch of energy at at five hertz where this came up was that I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and I just sort of had not noticed this but that the major major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner So So I I have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration in fact it s not of of the effects of room reverberation It is is not a bad illustration of the effects of room noise on on some mikes but So And then we had this other discussion about whether this affects the dynamic range cuz I know although we start off with thirty two bits you end up with sixteen bits and you know are we getting hurt there ? But Dan is pretty confident that we are not that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there So So there was a question of whether we should change things here whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should PhD B: he suggested a smaller capacitor right ? Professor A: Right But then I had some other thing discussions with him and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that many other problems could ha happen And additionally we we already have a lot of data that s been collected with that so A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail but he has a a simple filter a digital filter that he suggested We just run over the data before we deal with it The other thing that I do not know the answer to but when people are using Feacalc here whether they are using it with the high pass filter option or not And I do not know if anybody knows But So when we are doing all these things using our software there is if it s if it s based on the RASTA PLP program which does both PLP and RASTA PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high pass filtering and in general we like to do that because of things like this and it s it s pretty it s not a very severe filter Does not affect speech frequencies even pretty low speech frequencies at all but it s PhD B: What s the pause cut off frequency it used ? Professor A: Oh I do not know I wrote this a while ago PhD B: Is it like twenty ? Professor A: I mean I think there s some effect above twenty but it s it s it s it s mild So I mean it probably there s probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it s it s pretty mild I do not know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high pass filter or a pre pre emphasis or something in the PhD F: I think we use a pre emphasis Professor A: So We we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we are going to use the P D A mike for He says that there s a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so we do not need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it And then again if it s depending on the option that the our our software is being run with it s it s quite possible that s already being taken care of But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation PhD B: Did somebody notice it during your talk ? Professor A: Well Well If they made output they were they were you know they were nice PhD B: Did not say anything ? Professor A: But I mean the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise it was not a good match but it certainly was still an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes It s just not a great example because not only is not it reverberation but it s a noise that we definitely know what to do So I mean it does not take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of five hertz noise so But So it was it was a bad example in that way but it s it still is it s the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance so it was not it w it w was not wrong it was inappropriate So So but someone noticed it later pointed it out to me and I went `` oh man Why did not I notice that ? `` So So I think we will change our our picture on the web when we are One of the things I was I mean I was trying to think about what what s the best way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was that spectrogram that we show is O K but the thing is the eyes and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does not seem like it s that bad because there s many features that are still preserved So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different an and blow it up and have that be the part that s just to show as well You know i i Some things are going to be hurt Another I was thinking of was taking some spectral slices like like we look at with the recognizer and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there and the the the reverberation does make it does change that And so maybe maybe that would be more obvious","The professor noted that a major component in one of the waves was the air conditioner. The team had to be more cognizant about these kind reverberations in the recordings. After a threshold, the reverberations interfered with the recordings. The team thought they could look at spectral slices to further understand the problem." "Professor A: OK so had some interesting mail from Dan Ellis Actually I think he he redirected it to everybody also so the PDA mikes have a big bunch of energy at at five hertz where this came up was that I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and and I just sort of had not noticed this but that the major major component in the wave in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner So So I I have to be more careful about using that as a as a as a good illustration in fact it s not of of the effects of room reverberation It is is not a bad illustration of the effects of room noise on on some mikes but So And then we had this other discussion about whether this affects the dynamic range cuz I know although we start off with thirty two bits you end up with sixteen bits and you know are we getting hurt there ? But Dan is pretty confident that we are not that that quantization error is not is still not a significant factor there So So there was a question of whether we should change things here whether we should change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we should PhD B: he suggested a smaller capacitor right ? Professor A: Right But then I had some other thing discussions with him and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that many other problems could ha happen And additionally we we already have a lot of data that s been collected with that so A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail but he has a a simple filter a digital filter that he suggested We just run over the data before we deal with it The other thing that I do not know the answer to but when people are using Feacalc here whether they are using it with the high pass filter option or not And I do not know if anybody knows But So when we are doing all these things using our software there is if it s if it s based on the RASTA PLP program which does both PLP and RASTA PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high pass filtering and in general we like to do that because of things like this and it s it s pretty it s not a very severe filter Does not affect speech frequencies even pretty low speech frequencies at all but it s PhD B: What s the pause cut off frequency it used ? Professor A: Oh I do not know I wrote this a while ago PhD B: Is it like twenty ? Professor A: I mean I think there s some effect above twenty but it s it s it s it s mild So I mean it probably there s probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it s it s pretty mild I do not know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high pass filter or a pre pre emphasis or something in the PhD F: I think we use a pre emphasis Professor A: So We we we want to go and check that in i for anything that we are going to use the P D A mike for He says that there s a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so we do not need need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes we want to be sure to do that that filtering before we process it And then again if it s depending on the option that the our our software is being run with it s it s quite possible that s already being taken care of But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation PhD B: Did somebody notice it during your talk ? Professor A: Well Well If they made output they were they were you know they were nice PhD B: Did not say anything ? Professor A: But I mean the thing is it was since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise it was not a good match but it certainly was still an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes It s just not a great example because not only is not it reverberation but it s a noise that we definitely know what to do So I mean it does not take deep a new bold new methods to get rid of five hertz noise so But So it was it was a bad example in that way but it s it still is it s the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance so it was not it w it w was not wrong it was inappropriate So So but someone noticed it later pointed it out to me and I went `` oh man Why did not I notice that ? `` So So I think we will change our our picture on the web when we are One of the things I was I mean I was trying to think about what what s the best way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was that spectrogram that we show is O K but the thing is the eyes and the the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns from from noise that in first glance you look at them it does not seem like it s that bad because there s many features that are still preserved So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec of the spectrogram where you can see that something looks different an and blow it up and have that be the part that s just to show as well You know",The professor informed the team that noise was affecting their recordings but Dan had assured him that the quantization effect was not significant. He thought that the team should update their web page to better reflect their understanding of the topic. "Professor A: and the feeling was once we start monk monkeying with that many other problems could ha happen And additionally we we already have a lot of data that s been collected with that so A simple thing to do is he he he has a I forget if it this was in that mail or in the following mail but he has a a simple filter a digital filter that he suggested We just run over the data before we deal with it The other thing that I do not know the answer to but when people are using Feacalc here whether they are using it with the high pass filter option or not And I do not know if anybody knows But So when we are doing all these things using our software there is if it s if it s based on the RASTA PLP program which does both PLP and RASTA PLP then there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which allows you to do high pass filtering and in general we like to do that because of things like this and it s it s pretty it s not a very severe filter Does not affect speech frequencies even pretty low speech frequencies at all but it s PhD B: What s the pause cut off frequency it used ? Professor A: Oh I do not know I wrote this a while ago PhD B: Is it like twenty ? Professor A: I mean I think there s some effect above twenty but it s it s it s it s mild So I mean it probably there s probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it s it s pretty mild I do not know in the in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high pass filter or a pre pre emphasis or something in the",PhD B thought that a smaller capacitor might help with reverberation. PhD B was also interested in the cutoff frequency to ensure that reverberation does not interfere with speech too much. PhD B thought it was around 20. "Professor A: Anybo anybody in the in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ? Or is that what is that PhD F: we are We are trying to to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits and But And the good thing is that pause there is this first deadline and well some people from OGI are working on a paper for this but there is also the special session about th Aurora which is which has an extended deadline So The deadline is in May Professor A: For Oh for Eurospeech ? PhD F: So f only for the experiments on Aurora So it it s good PhD B: Mm Where is Eurospeech this year ? Professor A: So the deadline When s the deadline ? When s the deadline ? PhD F: ? I think it s the thirteenth of May Professor A: That s great ! It s great So we should definitely get something in for that But on meeting digits maybe there s Maybe PhD F: So it would be for the first deadline Professor A: So I mean I I think that you could certainly start looking at at the issue but but I think it s probably on s from what Stephane is saying it s it s unlikely to get sort of active participation from the two sides until after they ve PhD B: Well I could at least Well I m going to be out next week but I could pause try to look into like this CVS over the web That seems to be a very popular way of pause people distributing changes and over you know multiple sites and things so maybe if I can figure out how do that easily and then pass the information on to everybody so that it s you know as easy to do as possible and and people do not it will not interfere with comment their regular work then maybe that would be good And I think we could use it for other things around here too So Grad C: That s cool And if you are interested in using CVS I ve set it up here PhD B: I used it a long time ago but it s been a while so maybe I can ask you some questions Grad C: Oh So I will be away tomorrow and Monday but I will be back on Tuesday or Wednesday Professor A: Dave the other thing actually is is this business about this wave form Maybe you and I can talk a little bit at some point about coming up with a better demonstration of the effects of reverberation for our web page cuz the I mean actually the the It made a good good audio demonstration because when we could play that clip the the the really obvious difference is that you can hear two voices and in the second one and only hear PhD B: Maybe we could just pause like talk into a cup Professor A: No I mean it sound it sounds pretty reverberant but I mean you can not when you play it back in a room with a you know a big room nobody can hear that difference really They hear that it s lower amplitude and they hear there s a second voice but that actually that makes for a perfectly good demo because that s a real obvious thing that you hear two voices Well that that that s OK But for the the visual just you know I would like to have you know the spectrogram again because you are you are you are visual abilities as a human being are so good you can pick out you know you you look at the good one you look at the cru the screwed up one and and you can see the features in it without trying to PhD B: I noticed that in the pictures I thought `` hey you know th `` I My initial thought was `` this is not too bad ! `` Professor A: Right But you have to you know if you look at it closely you see `` well here s a place where this one has a big formant formant maj major formants here are are moving quite a bit `` And then you look in the other one and they look practically flat So I mean you could that s why I was thinking in a section like that you could take a look look at just that part of the spectrogram and you could say `` Oh This this really distorted it quite a bit `` PhD B: The main thing that struck me in looking at those two spectrograms was the difference in the high frequencies It looked like for the one that was farther away you know it really everything was attenuated and I mean that was the main visual thing that I noticed Professor A: Right But it s it s So So there are clearly are spectral effects Since you are getting all this indirect energy then a lot of it does have have reduced high frequencies But the other thing is the temporal courses of things really are changed and and we want to show that in some obvious way The reason I put the wave forms in there was because they they do look quite different And so I thought `` Oh this is good `` but I I just After after they were put in there I did not really look at them anymore cuz I just they were different So I want something that has a is a more interesting explanation for why they are different Grad C: Oh So maybe we can just substitute one of these wave forms and then do some kind of zoom in on the spectrogram on an interesting area Professor A: The other thing that we had in there that I did not like was that the most obvious characteristic of the difference when you listen to it is that there s a second voice and the the the the the cuts that we have there actually do not correspond to the full wave form It s just the first I think there was something where he was having some trouble getting so much in or I I forget the reason behind it But it it s it s the first six seconds or something of it and it s in the seventh or eighth second or something where the second voice comes in So we we would like to actually see the voice coming in too I think since that s the most obvious thing pause when you listen to it PhD F: I brought some I do not know if some figures here Well I start we started to work on spectral subtraction And the preliminary results were very bad So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this the Wall process which contains LDA on line normalization And it hurts a lot And so we started to look at at things like this which is well it s So you have the C zero parameters for one Italian utterance And I plotted this for two channels Channel zero is the close mic microphone and channel one is the distant microphone And it s perfectly synchronized so And the sentence contain only one word which is `` Due `` And it can not clearly be seen Where where is it ? Where is the word ? PhD B: oh a plot of C zero PhD F: This is a plot of C zero when we do not use spectral substraction and when there is no on line normalization So There is just some filtering with the LDA and and some downsampling upsampling PhD B: C zero is the close talking ? and s channel one is the PhD F: So C zero is very clean actually then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure though it is not Which is good Well the noise part is around zero and And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization So What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is PhD B: This is still being a plot of C zero ? OK PhD F: This is still C zero PhD B: Can I ask what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ? PhD F: It normalized th the standard deviation You you get an estimate of the standard deviation PhD B: No I understand what it is but I mean what does it what s what is Professor A: What s the rationale ? PhD B: We Why why do it ? Professor A: Well I mean because everything If you have a system based on Gaussians everything is based on means and variances So if there s an overall reason You know it s like if you were doing image processing and in some of the pictures you were looking at there was a lot of light and and in some there was low light you know you would want to adjust for that in order to compare things And the variance is just sort of like the next moment you know ? So what if one set of pictures was taken so that throughout the course it was went through daylight and night ten times another time it went thr I mean i is you know how how much how much vari Or no I guess a better example would be how much of the light was coming in from outside rather than artificial light So if it was a lot if more was coming from outside then there would be the bigger effect of the of the of the change in the So every mean every all all of the the parameters that you have especially the variances are going to be affected by the overall variance And so in principle you if you remove that source then you know you can PhD B: I see OK So would the major effect is that you are going to get is by normalizing the means Professor A: That s the first order but thing PhD B: but it may help First order effects Professor A: but then the second order is is the variances PhD B: And it may help to do the variance OK Professor A: because again if you if you are trying to distinguish between E and B if it just so happens that the E s were a more you know were recorded when when the energy was was was larger or something or the variation in it was larger than with the B s then this will be give you some some bias So the it s removing these sources of variability in the data that have nothing to do with the linguistic component PhD B: Gotcha OK Sorry to interrupt Professor A: But the the but let me as ask ask you something PhD F: Yep And it and this Professor A: i is if If you have a good voice activity detector is not is not it going to pull that out ? PhD F: Sure If they are good Well what it it shows is that perhaps a good voice activity detector is is good before on line normalization and that s what we ve already observed But voice activity detection is not an easy thing neither PhD B: But after you do this after you do the variance normalization I mean I do not know it seems like this would be a lot easier than this signal to work with PhD F: So What I notice is that while I prefer to look at the second figure than at the third one well because you clearly see where speech is",Eurospeech was taking place in Denmark and the team was planning on submitting a paper to it. The team was also discussing how to best present the reverberation problem. The team thought that the spectral effects of the reverberation were very clear. They would have to figure out how to remove the sources of variance from the data to capture only the main voice. "Professor A: Anybo anybody in the in this group do doing anything for Eurospeech ? Or is that what is that PhD F: we are We are trying to to do something with the Meeting Recorder digits and But And the good thing is that pause there is this first deadline and well some people from OGI are working on a paper for this but there is also the special session about th Aurora which is which has an extended deadline So The deadline is in May Professor A: For Oh for Eurospeech ? PhD F: So f only for the experiments on Aurora So it it s good PhD B: Mm Where is Eurospeech this year ? Professor A: So the deadline When s the deadline ? When s the deadline ? PhD F: ? I think it s the thirteenth of May Professor A: That s great ! It s great So we should definitely get something in for that But on meeting digits maybe there s Maybe PhD F: So it would be for the first deadline",PhD F explained that they were trying to do something with meeting recorder digits for Eurospeech. Some people on OGI were working on a paper due on the 13th of May. "PhD F: I brought some I do not know if some figures here Well I start we started to work on spectral subtraction And the preliminary results were very bad So the thing that we did is just to add spectral subtraction before this the Wall process which contains LDA on line normalization And it hurts a lot And so we started to look at at things like this which is well it s So you have the C zero parameters for one Italian utterance And I plotted this for two channels Channel zero is the close mic microphone and channel one is the distant microphone And it s perfectly synchronized so And the sentence contain only one word which is `` Due `` And it can not clearly be seen Where where is it ? Where is the word ? PhD B: oh a plot of C zero PhD F: This is a plot of C zero when we do not use spectral substraction and when there is no on line normalization So There is just some filtering with the LDA and and some downsampling upsampling PhD B: C zero is the close talking ? and s channel one is the PhD F: So C zero is very clean actually then when we apply mean normalization it looks like the second figure though it is not Which is good Well the noise part is around zero and And then the third figure is what happens when we apply mean normalization and variance normalization So What we can clearly see is that on the speech portion the two channel come becomes very close but also what happens on the noisy portion is that the variance of the noise is PhD B: This is still being a plot of C zero ? OK PhD F: This is still C zero PhD B: Can I ask what does variance normalization do ? w What is the effect of that ?",PhD F informed the group that the preliminary results from spectral subtraction were very bad. Mean normalization brought noise to around zero. Mean and variance normalization helped with speech but not with noise variance. "User Interface: Today we have teletext and all those things Tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that so Industrial Designer: Like what ? Like internet on the on TV ? User Interface: IPO or Now we are looking for television things or IP For example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up Marketing: Mm But we can not really design for something that has not been invented yet User Interface: Ah it is it is it is it is coming up actually The personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up Project Manager: Mm well I I think w y you two should should I think think this over w espec what what functionality User Interface: Let us Let us take Industrial Designer: w Of course and first before designing the func well thinking about the functionalities we need to know what are the user requirements then if they need internet then we would be able to to p to propose something with TV over IP Marketing: Mm But Ninety percent of the time ninety nine percent of the time people will be using the main functions the volume the different channels so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use Project Manager: Mm mm mm Keep k keep in mind i it is a it is a twenty five Euro unit so the the very fancy stuff w we can leave that out I think So twenty five Euro you expect a quite well normal but good functioning user friendly remote control User Interface: Oh in that case you can you always hook up with someone who is providing that and you know you you sell their product as well as your product with them you know Marketing: Mm So try and get TV manufacturers to Industrial Designer: but w w we want to design a new one Mm User Interface: No it is I understand So we need some numbering buttons some teletext things Industrial Designer: The the main is browsing Project Manager: Yes but but but ab about the spec the buttons the buttons that will be on it I I think we can discuss that in the in the next meeting I would like to get this wrapped up and go to an end of this meeting User Interface: we are alread mm Mm Project Manager: you know now the basic the basic things well just just for the next meeting well you wor yes work on a design keep it general I mean so w we will be still fle flexible with maybe adding some functions So you will be working on on technical function design so And you and you and well think about requirements eh ? Does it need internet or or do do we stay at basic basic television interface","User Interface and Industrial designer expressed a desire to integrate cutting-edge features into the remote. Marketing pointed out that most of the market will buy it for standard use, like changing channels and adjusting volume, so those features should be the priority. Project Manager agreed, explaining that people expect a well-functioning, normal remote for their proposed product price of 25 Euros." Marketing: Mm But Ninety percent of the time ninety nine percent of the time people will be using the main functions the volume the different channels so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use,Marketing believed that fancy features like IP would not be used by most people. The overwhelming majority of users would want convenient channel browsing and volume adjustment features. Those should remain the main focus instead of more novel features. "User Interface: Today we have teletext and all those things Tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that so Industrial Designer: Like what ? Like internet on the on TV ? User Interface: IPO or Now we are looking for television things or IP For example personal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up Marketing: Mm But we can not really design for something that has not been invented yet User Interface: Ah it is it is it is it is coming up actually The personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up","User Interface initially suggested that the remote control could also incorporate forward-looking features, like controlling personal video recorders. UI quickly jumped on board with focusing on regular features, however." "Project Manager: Let us continue to to the real stuff our project finance thing when we are and when w you are going to design w we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product will be about twenty five Euros so when designing a project I also look at you Mael keep in mind People want to get the feeling this is a twenty five Euro project pr product more interesting for our company of course p profit aim about fifty million Euro So we have to sell quite a lot of this things we will try to to get at a international market so it will be I think mainly Europe and Northern America User Interface: Ah the sale man four million Project Manager: maybe some Asian countries also important for you all is the the product production cost must be maximal twelve twelve Euro and fifty cents Industrial Designer: So it is half of the selling price if I am good in mathematics Project Manager: Yes of course I mean we still have to to make a profit huh ? User Interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit Project Manager: You all have to be paid User Interface: Ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit Fifty mill Industrial Designer: Oh you are g very good in mathematics Project Manager: So well I think w when we are working on the international market in principle it has enough customers so when we have a good product we we could meet this this aim I think So that about finance And now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and well keep in mind this this first point it has to be original it has to be trendy it has to be user friendly maybe someone can mention some additional prerequisites for a good remote control","The remote control would be priced at 25 Euros, produced at a maximum cost of 12.5 Euros, and primarily marketed in Europe and North America. At least 4 million units would have to be sold to meet the company's profit goals." "Project Manager: our project finance thing when we are and when w you are going to design w we must keep in mind that the selling price of the product will be about twenty five Euros so when designing a project I also look at you Mael keep in mind People want to get the feeling this is a twenty five Euro project pr product more interesting for our company of course p profit aim about fifty million Euro So we have to sell quite a lot of this things we will try to to get at a international market so it will be I think mainly Europe and Northern America User Interface: Ah the sale man four million Project Manager: maybe some Asian countries also important for you all is the the product production cost must be maximal twelve twelve Euro and fifty cents Industrial Designer: So it is half of the selling price if I am good in mathematics Project Manager: Yes of course I mean we still have to to make a profit huh ? User Interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit Project Manager: You all have to be paid User Interface: Ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit Fifty mill Industrial Designer: Oh you are g very good in mathematics Project Manager: So well I think w when we are working on the international market in principle it has enough customers so when we have a good product we we could meet this this aim I think So that about finance And now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and well keep in mind this this first point it has to be original it has to be trendy it has to be user friendly maybe someone can mention some additional prerequisites for a good remote control","Project manager introduced the financial information: 25 Euro selling price and 12.5 Euro production cost. PM then went on to elaborate that the target market would primarily consist of Europe and North America. PM expressed that a profit aim of 50 million Euros, which could be achieved by selling 4 million of these remotes, was achievable." "User Interface: Ah the sale man four million Project Manager: maybe some Asian countries also important for you all is the the product production cost must be maximal twelve twelve Euro and fifty cents Industrial Designer: So it is half of the selling price if I am good in mathematics Project Manager: Yes of course I mean we still have to to make a profit huh ? User Interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit Project Manager: You all have to be paid User Interface: Ah we have to make we have to sell at least four million to make our own profit Fifty mill",User Interface reiterated that the company would have to sell four million units to make a profit. "Professor C: In fact m my brother s a pause gerontological psychologist and he he came up with an an a body age test which gets down to sort of only three measurements that are good enough st statistical predictors of all the rest of it And one of them is is the distance that you have to hold it at PhD D: Give someone a piece of paper and then they Oh Grad A: We are we are live by the way so we ve got a good intro here Professor C: Oh About how old I am Grad A: We can edit that out if you want OK So This time the form discussion should be very short Professor C: It also should be pause later Because Jane is not here yet And she will be most interested in that she s probably least involved in the signal processing stuff so maybe we can just just I do not think we should go though an elaborate thing but Jose and I were just talking about the nonvocalsound speech e energy thing We did not talk about the derivatives But I think you know the the i if I can if you do not mind my my speaking for you for a bit Right now that he s not really showing any kind of distinction but but we discussed a couple of the possible things that he can look at And one is that this is all in log energy and log energy is basically compressing the distances pause between things pause Another is that he needs to play with the the different pause temporal sizes He was he he was taking everything over two hundred milliseconds and he s going to vary that number and also look at moving windows as we discussed before And and the other thing is that the doing the subtracting off the mean and the variance in the pause and dividing it by the pause standard deviation in the log domain may not be pause the right thing to do Grad A: Could you take that mike there ? PhD D: Are these the long term means ? Like over the whole I mean the means of pause what ? All the frames in the conversation ? Professor C: Between Neither It s between the pauses pause for some segment And so i i his his He s making the constraint it has to be at least two hundred milliseconds And so you take that And then he s he s measuring at the frame level still at the frame level of what","Derivatives were not discussed with Jose but other possibilities were explored. First that log energy is basically compressing the distances. Another is that he needs to assess the different temporal sizes . He is taking everything over two hundred milliseconds and varying that number. He is also considering moving windows , as previously discussed. He is measuring at the frame level." "Professor C: And then given that as a base you can see if that gets improved you know or or pause or worsened pause by the looking at regular energy looking at log energy we were just proposing that maybe it s you know it s harder to pause see with the log energy and also these different normalizations does a particular choice of normalization make it better ? But I had maybe made it too complicated by suggesting early on that you look at scatter plots because that s looking at a distribution in two dimensions Let s start off just in one with this feature I think that s probably the most basic thing before anything very complicated And then we w I think we are agreed that pitch related things are are are going to be a a really likely candidate to help pause But pause since your intuition from looking at some of the data is that when you looked at the regular energy that it did in fact usually go up when two people were talking that s eh you know you should be able to come up with a measure which will pause match your intuition And she s right that a that having a having comment having this table with a whole bunch of things pause with the standard deviation the variance and so forth it s it s it s harder to interpret than just looking at the the same kind of picture you have here PhD E: But huh But It it s curious but I f I found it in the in the mixed file in one channel that eh in several oh e eh several times eh you have an speaker talking alone with a high level of energy eh in the middle eh a zone of overlapping with mmm less energy and eh come with another speaker with high energy and the overlapping zone has eh less energy Professor C: So there will be some cases for which PhD E: Because there reach very many Professor C: But the qu So So they will be This is I w want to point pause to visual things But I mean they there will be time There will be overlap between the distributions but the question is `` If it s a reasonable feature at all there s some separation `` Grad A: And I was just going to say that that pause right now we are just exploring PhD D: And the other thing is I Sorry I Grad A: What you would imagine eventually is that you will feed all of these features into some pause discriminative system And so even if if one of the features does a good job at one type of overlap another feature might do a good job at another type of overlap Professor C: Right I mean the the reason I had suggested the scatter f p features is I used to do this a lot when we had thirteen or fifteen or twenty features pause to look at Because something is a good feature by itself you do not really know how it will behave in combination and so it s nice to have as many as many together at the same time as possible in in some reasonable visual form There s cool graphic things people have had sometimes to put together three or four in some funny funny way But it s true that you should not do any of that unless you know that the individual ones at least have have some some hope PhD D: I mean it s really important to pause pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature And it may not be the same for all the types of overlaps or the windows may not be the same e Actually I was wondering right now you are taking a all of the pause speech from the whole meeting and you are trying to find points of overlap but we do not really know which speaker is overlapping with which speaker right ? So I mean another way would just be to take the speech from just say Morgan And just Jane and then just their overlaps like but by hand by cheating and looking at you know if you can detect something that way because if we can not do it that way there s no good way that we are going to be able to do it That You know there might be something helpful and cleaner about looking at just pause individuals and then that combination alone Plus I think it has more elegant e The m the right model will be pause easier to see that way So if I do not know if you go through and you find Adam cuz he has a lot of overlaps and some other speaker who also has e enough speech and just sort of look at those three cases of Adam and the other person and the overlaps maybe and just look at the distributions maybe there is a clear pattern but we just can not see it because there s too many combinations of of people that can overlap Postdoc B: I had the same intuition last last last week PhD D: So Just seems sort of complex Postdoc B: I think it s to start with it s s your your idea of simplifying starting with something that pause you can see pause eh you know without the pause extra pause layers of PhD D: Right Cuz if energy does not matter there like I do not think this is true but what if","Professor C said the basic hypothesis and starting point is if you examine the energy when two people are speaking at the same time , usually {there 'll be more energy than when one is. Coming up with a measure which will match this intuition is the next step. These energy features should be fed into a discriminative system. It is important to pick a normalization that matches the distribution for that feature." "Postdoc B: Oh ! I was not supposed to Grad A: The digit form does not have a `` for official use only `` line It just has a line pause which is what you are supposed to read So on the digits form everything above the line is a fill in form and everything below the line is digits that the user reads Postdoc B: OK Alright s but I did not mean to derail our discussion here so you really wanted to start with this other form Grad A: No either way is fine I just You just started talking about something and I did not know which form you were referring to Postdoc B: Alright I was comparing so th this is So I was looking at the change first So it s like we started with this and now we ve got a new version of it wi pause with reference to this So the digit form we had one already Now the f the fields are slightly different Professor C: So the main thing that the person fills out pause is the name and email and time ? You do the rest ? Grad A: Yep Just as as I have for all the others Postdoc B: What And there s an addition of the native language which is a bit redundant This one has Native Language and this one does too Grad A: That s because the one the digit form that has native language is the old form not the new form Postdoc B: Oh ! Thank you pause Thank you thank you There we go Oh I will catch up here OK I see Professor C: `` South Midland North Midland `` Postdoc B: That s the old and that s the new Grad A: this was the problem with these categories I I picked those categories from TIMIT I do not know what those are PhD D: Actually the only way I know is from working with the database and having to figure it out Grad A: So I was going to ask Professor C: So is South Midland like Kansas ? and North Midland like like Illinois or ? Grad A: So so what accent are we speaking ? Western ? PhD E: And for simple for for me ? Is mean my native language Spanish Spanish ? eh The original is the center of Spain and the beca Grad A: I mean you could call it whatever you want For the foreign language we could not classify every single one So I just left it blank and you can put whatever you want PhD E: Because is different the Span pause the Spanish language from the the north of Spain of the south of the west and the Grad A: So I m not sure what to do about the Region field for English variety You know when I wrote I was writing those down I was thinking `` You know these are great pause if you are a linguist `` But I do not know how to I do not know how to I do not know how to categorize them PhD D: Actually even if you pause t Professor C: If you are if e if y PhD D: This was not developed by th these regions were not Professor C: if you are a TI or MIT from nineteen eighty five Grad A: So I guess my only question was if if you were a South Midland speaking region person ? Would you know it ? Is that what you would call yourself ? Professor C: You know I think if you are talking if you are thinking in terms of places pause as opposed to pause names different peop names people have given to pause different ways of talking pause I would think North Midwest and South Midwest would be more common than saying Midland right I mean I I went to s PhD D: Now pause the usage Maybe we can give them a li pause like a little map ? with the regions and they just No I m serious Postdoc B: No that s not bad PhD D: Because it takes less time and it s sort of cute PhD E: i at this in that side in that side of the the paper PhD D: Well just a little You know it does not have all the detail but you sort of Professor C: But what if you moved five times and and Postdoc B: Well I was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time PhD D: No but you are categorized That s the same Postdoc B: so roughly So You could say pause you know `` ten years pause on the east coast five years on the west coast `` or something or other Grad A: Well We I think we do not want to get that level of detail at this form I think that s alright if we want to follow up But Professor C: I guess we do not really know PhD D: I mean I As I said I do not think there s a huge pause benefit to this region thing It it gets The problem is that for some things it s really clear and usually listening to comment it you can tell right away if it s a New York or Boston accent but New York and Boston are two well I guess they have the NYC but New England has a bunch of very different dialects and and pause so does S So do other places Grad A: so I picked these regions cuz we had talked about TIMIT and those are right from TIMIT PhD D: Right And so these would be pause satisfying like a speech pause research pause community if we released the database but as to whether subjects know where they are from I m not sure because I know that they had to fill this out for Switchboard This is i almost exactly the same as Switchboard regions or very close And I do not know how they filled that out But th if Midland Midland is the one that s difficult I guess Postdoc B: I think a lot of people PhD D: Also Northwest you ve got Oreg Washington and Oregon now which y people do not know if it s western or northern Grad A: I certainly do not I mean I was saying I do not even know what I speak Am I speaking Am I speaking Western ? Professor C: Oh what is Northern ? Well and what and what s Northern ? PhD D: I think originally it was North Northwest Grad A: so this is a real problem I do not know what to do about it Postdoc B: I would not know how to characterize mine either And and so I would think I would say I ve I ve got a mix of California and Ohio Grad A: I c I think at the first level for example we speak the same our our dialects Or pause whatever you region are the same But I do not know what it is So PhD D: Well you have a like techno speak accent I think Grad A: a techno speak accent ? A a geek region ? PhD D: Well it s I mean I you can sort of identify it f It s it s not not that that s but but maybe that maybe we could leave this and see what people See what people choose and then let them just fill in if they do not I mean I do not know what else we can do cuz That s North Midland Postdoc B: I m wondering about a question like `` Where are you from mostly ? `` Professor C: But I I m s I m now that you mentioned it though I am really am confused by `` Northern `` I mean if if you are pause in New England that s North If you are i if you are Postdoc B: Scandinavian the Minnesota area s north Professor C: That s But that s also North Midland And and and Oregon and and Oregon and Washington are are Western but they are also Northern PhD D: Of course that s very different from like Michigan or Well there are hardly any subjects from Idaho There s only a few people in Idaho Grad A: There are hardly any subjects from `` beep `` Professor C: Maybe Maybe we Maybe we should put a little map and say `` put an X on where you are from `` PhD D: We could ask where they are from Postdoc B: It would be pretty simple PhD D: But We went back to that PhD E: If you put eh the state ? Grad A: Well well we sort of Postdoc B: Where are you from mostly ? PhD D: We we went we went around this and then pause a lot of people ended up saying that it Grad A: Well I like the idea of asking `` what variety of English do you speak `` as opposed to where you are from Because th if we start asking where we are from again you have to start saying `` well is that the language you speak or is that just where you are from ? `` PhD D: I mean it gives us good information on where they are from but that does not comment tell us anything Professor C: We could always ask them if they are from Grad A: I mean So so I would say Germany You know am I speaking with German accent I do not think so Postdoc B: Well see I m thinking `` Where are you from mostly `` because you know then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it Grad A: Yep I guess I could try to put squeeze in a little map I mean there s not a lot of r of room Professor C: I would say `` Boston New York City the South and Regular `` PhD D: Oh I do not know Grad A: I think of those Northern is the only one that I do not even know what they are meaning PhD E: And And pause And usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang English language ? Professor C: That s a joke That s PhD D: So let s make it up S I mean who cares Right ? We can make up our own So we can say `` Northwest `` `` Rest of West `` or something You know `` West `` and I mean Grad A: Ye I do not think the Northwest people speak any differently than I do PhD D: It does not even exactly That s not really a region Professor C: `` Do you come from the Louisiana Purchase ? `` PhD D: So we could take out `` North `` `` Northern `` Grad A: That that s exactly what we are arguing about PhD E: eh here Is easy for people to know ? PhD D: That s w It s In It s it s harder in America anywhere else basically Grad A: I mean some of them are very obvious If you if you talk to someone speaking with Southern drawl you know Postdoc B: I can not do it but PhD D: And those people if you ask them to self identify their accent they know Postdoc B: I agree I agree I agree PhD D: They know they do not speak the same as the Grad A: But is Boston New England ? Postdoc B: And they are proud of it","For the new forms, one is a one time only speaker form and the other is the digits. The reason the time is included above the date is so that the person who 's extracting the digits will know where to look in the meeting , to try to find them. In addition to Name, Time and Email which the participant fills out, the form including seat number, session, native language, region of origin, time spent in an English speaking country, and accent characterization filled by research facilitators, after conducting a short interview. " "User Interface: so the interface concept The interface specification what people how they interact with it basically I think so the method we looked at existing designs what are the what is good about them what is bad about them I looked at their flaws so we are going to look at their flaws everything and what the survey told us and what we think would be good so a bit of imagination the findings I have got some pictures to show you as well so most remote controls use graphical interface where you have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something and we also found that there is inconsistent layout which makes it confusing So I think for our remote control There is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls but I think standard kind of shape and play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something I think people find that importantbecause then it is easy to use And we have got some pictures of some new remote controls to show you Do I press Escape F five ? Or just Escape oh I still have not got my glasses on So these are the some of the pictures of existing ones I will just walk you through them This one is a voice recognition And that is the kind of idea we are going for There is an LCD thing which we thought could I thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us This one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse Project Manager: Mmhmm like the middle button User Interface: and But I am not exactly sure how you would use that Project Manager: Ah it is kind of like scrolling User Interface: like would the computer come Project Manager: right well if I s if I am thinking of the right one I have got the same thing in front of my monitor you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of menu item that you require you press the middle of the scroll User Interface: Uhhuh that is like the LCD one is it ? But the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side But I presume that the functions must come up on the TV screen I think that is what that is So these are just a few ideas Again that is just quite boring shape grey looks quite spaceagey but too many buttons I think on that one Project Manager: looks like looks like something out of a jet User Interface: it does look kind of dangerous this one I thought was really cool It is w it is got the programmability function that we talked about You can put it in there it is for your kids and it is quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool And that is really easy to use bright so I like this one lot for our design I think something like that would be good Project Manager: I m I mean the one thing I think about about these ones is these kl secured areas I have seen a lot of them with the the cover missing So like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever User Interface: Right that is true so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the TV or something And this one the oversized one I do not know about you but I think it is a bit too gimmicky I do not think that will sell very well Project Manager: I mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something is it ? User Interface: I guess so I do not know Industrial Designer: Then d blind do not watch TV User Interface: I think that is a bit exactly Project Manager: No they do they do User Interface: And this one is just pointing out I like some of these things the the raised symbols and everything but pointing out that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down but it would actually go up because of the shape So that could that is a bit confusing but the buttons on this I think are it is just showing you how you can have different different buttons They do not have to be all the same So that is quite cool Project Manager: Kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway do not they ? User Interface: exactly F five Yes So there are some of the findings So we need to combine those ones and I have just got an email from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in it is just in time very handy so I think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good","According to User Interface, most remote controls had an inconsistent layout, thus was difficult to use. Also, they were mostly in boring shape, grey and quite space-agey with too many buttons. Therefore, after discussion, the team decided to avoid those flaws they had discovered. Basically, the new designs would be with programmability function, organic shape and consistent layout." User Interface: so the interface concept The interface specification what people how they interact with it basically I think so the method we looked at existing designs what are the what is good about them what is bad about them I looked at their flaws so we are going to look at their flaws everything and what the survey told us and what we think would be good so a bit of imagination the findings I have got some pictures to show you as well so most remote controls use graphical interface where you have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something and we also found that there is inconsistent layout which makes it confusing So I think for our remote control There is some inconsistency already in ec existing in between remote controls but I think standard kind of shape and play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something I think people find that importantbecause then it is easy to use,"In general, the team only collected the flaws of the existing remotes. According to the User Interface, the existing remotes were difficult to use because of the inconsistent layout, too many buttons and shape problems. For each problem, the team tried to give the solution. For example, their new remotes would have a standard layout, limited buttons and organic shapes. It was believed that by solving all these problems, the new remotes would be easy for the customers to use." "User Interface: This one is got a kind of scroll like a mouse Project Manager: Mmhmm like the middle button User Interface: and But I am not exactly sure how you would use that Project Manager: Ah it is kind of like scrolling User Interface: like would the computer come Project Manager: right well if I s if I am thinking of the right one I have got the same thing in front of my monitor you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of menu item that you require you press the middle of the scroll User Interface: Uhhuh that is like the LCD one is it ? But the one below that has got like a little scroll function on the side But I presume that the functions must come up on the TV screen I think that is what that is So these are just a few ideas Again that is just quite boring shape grey looks quite spaceagey but too many buttons I think on that one Project Manager: looks like looks like something out of a jet User Interface: it does look kind of dangerous","The User Interface showed the pictures of one kind of remotes with scrolls on it, working as the middle buttons. If the consumers wanted to find a certain item, they just needed to scroll it and when they reached the required ones, they pressed the middle of the scroll. Although the team was not satisfied with the colour, shape and buttons of the existing, they all agreed that the function of a scroll was a good idea." "Project Manager: Well I mean we could make a Well si since we are going for the the k the sort of company colours I think your lemon was not that far s Industrial Designer: The the lemon Well what are the options ? Project Manager: And if it does not work you know we have just made a lemon User Interface: But we do not want it to be the childfriendly Easy to use it seems quite easy to use I like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff Project Manager: Mmhmm I like I like the colourful buttons as well User Interface: I think that is a good idea to go for And the mouse one I thought it was a good idea because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing Project Manager: I mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use User Interface: S So they would be able to use that as I said I think i I would presume it would come up on the screen Project Manager: And that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the TV maker so User Interface: So that is the user interface So I will take this out now then Industrial Designer: I guess there are a lot of options that we are going to have to choose from among and I will I will give you the I guess technical considerations for those And I am going to use the whiteboard just because we have not used it Project Manager: I was just thinking the self same thing Industrial Designer: Right So the way I am going to do this is we are going to take a look at some old remote controls see how they work reuse the the vital kind of essential pieces of it and then we will throw in our new innovations and keep it all within budget So looking inside a a very simple remote control this is what they sent me Kay Here is the competition I suppose you open it up there is a circuit board inside and there is a a chip a processor the TA one one eight three five which receives input from the buttons and ch Project Manager: So this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip is it ? Industrial Designer: Right it is very they are very cheap remote This remote costs nothing you know so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier which is made of some transistors and amplifiers opamps and then that gets sent to the to the LED light which I can kind of see is that little red light bulb at the end and that sends out the infrared light signal to the television Oh here it is so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control because it it defines the Project Manager: So can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or ? Industrial Designer: R no I mean this is a very old one so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make Project Manager: They got to be Almost a keyring Industrial Designer: Right So this is what we need to have for certain So you know as we said we got the outer casing which we have to decide you know what is it going to be the board we have to use basically the same setup processor we will probably use the more advanced processor than they had amplifier and transmitter are all standard so for the casing this an email I got from our manufacturing team you know we have a bunch of options from wood titanium rubber plastic whatnot latex doublecurved curved So lots of choices what do we think ? or sponge I guess is not on there right User Interface: Mm I am not sure about the sponge Project Manager: Well I mean like la latex has a kind of spongy feeling to it does not it Industrial Designer: it is very elasticy for sure Project Manager: And that would k also give it kind of durability and ther that is also f sorta relatively cheap to cast so maybe s a sort of plastic initial plastic with a a latex kind of sheath ? Industrial Designer: so here are a a plastic latex User Interface: I like the rubber the stress balls I think you know that could be a bit of a gimmick like it is good to hold and Project Manager: I do not know what that stuff is Industrial Designer: So something with give to it User Interface: And that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around Industrial Designer: and the colour is yellow right ? Project Manager: I mean I forgot i we are sort of I do not know what other standard silver kind of User Interface: Mm the buttons w like because there is going to be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours or i if we are having buttons actually Industrial Designer: So yellow for the body and then what colour for the buttons ? Project Manager: I quite like the multicoloured buttons myself User Interface: You do have ones like play could be green or on and off is red and stuff like that Project Manager: or a limit maybe even just a limited multicolour so it it does not look too childish perhaps User Interface: Makes it easy to use that is true because that blue one did look quite hardish Project Manager: Although I mean this also comes to shape as well I mean if we are going to make it a novel I mean doublecurved sounds good to me if we are talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use a bit comfier you know Industrial Designer: Mm kay so the shape we want to go how exactly ? Maybe double User Interface: Like an hour glass kind of figure is that what you are thinking of Project Manager: it is that that would be that is sort of comfortable to hold easy to hold so you do not drop it User Interface: or just like a It is not Industrial Designer: What about a banana ? User Interface: We could make novelty remote controls Industrial Designer: ? like we could have a big banana shaped remote control because it is yellow fruit Project Manager: Mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip User Interface: But then how would you point it ? How would you point it ? Industrial Designer: Oh i it does not matter which end you point I guess We could have a little LEDs on each end Marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also and we can relate with fruits and vegetables the peoples choices That what our data shows that so this w this w User Interface: y I am I am not sure about the banana idea Industrial Designer: So a spongy banana re Project Manager: I mean that that th it does seem a bit again childish maybe User Interface: I think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape And what else did you say about fashions ? What was trendy ? Marketing: the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables Industrial Designer: So maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable like so it would have a stem perhaps maybe a it would be s axially symmetric User Interface: Like what is what is that I do not even know the name of it some kind of you know where it is like looks like a little snowman kind of thing I do not know the name of that Industrial Designer: So it would look like this kind of User Interface: that is what I was thinking Industrial Designer: Like a gourd almost or a squash of some sort ? User Interface: maybe that is what they are Because that you can hold it in like the bottom bit Industrial Designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say you know it transmits from this end Project Manager: why the hell not Let us that will make us fifty million Euros User Interface: I do not know What do you guy What do you think ? Project Manager: Well I guess it is kind of dra you do not necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape Marketing: then only we can relate it with something Project Manager: we can relate it by advertising or Industrial Designer: so doublecurved singlecurved what do we feel ? Marketing: Or we can do something we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey let the public choose what they want Project Manager: There is a good man There is a good idea Industrial Designer: I guess since you are the marketing guy Marketing: sure I will be happy to do that Industrial Designer: We will we could do that User Interface: And buttons would did we say ? different shapes of buttons ? Project Manager: I l I su I mean for the specific functions you know up and down play stop They have got I mean they have got standard sort of intuitive things that are always used Industrial Designer: With the scrollwheel or no ? User Interface: what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition ? Project Manager: speech recognition I think so we need a microphone presumably Industrial Designer: I could put the microphone here Where should I put the microphone ? Project Manager: I mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use ? User Interface: I am not sure I mean those ideas I saw were just for inspiration I think Project Manager: Glad we are not doing this for real User Interface: I can no I am not sure Industrial Designer: well we can do some user test with scrollwheels right ? Project Manager: And I think if this this new software for the sound recognition is the microphone Industrial Designer: So should the microphone be just anywhere on it or Project Manager: I would put it sort of subcentrally so it is Industrial Designer: Kay there is the mic Project Manager: So it can be sort of held and w We really need really going to need to hold it if it is going to be voice recognition Industrial Designer: n well we can Whoops User Interface: So let us not use the whiteboard any more And so what else was there ? the What about the glowinthedark thing the strip around it ? Project Manager: I s I still like it User Interface: Are we just going to leave that ? You still like it Because we have got the technological innovation with the speech recognition system Project Manager: Yes or maybe it is just going a bit too far I mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes do not want to sort of overkill User Interface: Especially with yellow Mm I do not know Project Manager: Because I mean like if we I mean how good is the speech recognition thing ? Do we want to go for buttons at all do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it is a fruit ? User Interface: Then you put it in the fruit bowl ? Industrial Designer: They can work from a Project Manager: you know and then you just tal Industrial Designer: You do not have to hold it Project Manager: I mean like everybodys got fruit bowl in front of the telly Industrial Designer: I it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers you know they have fruits all round them Project Manager: Make them make them think of fruit Industrial Designer: Now just make sure they do not eat the remote User Interface: do we need buttons ? Project Manager: l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like I do not know an apple Then it is just apple so sort of User Interface: I quite like the shape I quite like the design of that because that could sit on its own and it is quite got a quite steady base and as we say we n we do not want to be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know Industrial Designer: But about the speech thing it does not have to be hand held or close It can sit at a distance and pick it up still Project Manager: So I mean like you could actually Marketing: we can do one thing we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece So whatever people want like if somebody want it in banana shape we will put that casing onto that mobile phone Project Manager: So a selection of casings Marketing: it will look l In that w Project Manager: It kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing User Interface: because you said about disposable did not you ? You said about disposable earli people want disposable things Marketing: like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone we will design casing in such a way like half of we need not to have a full cover we will just have a half of cover User Interface: so we could do that like have a choice Marketing: ? If somebody wants it i in banana shape we will fit banana shape casing onto that so it will give a banana shape look If somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that we will put we will put apple shape casing on that It will give apple shape look So in that way you can have any that means whatever you want User Interface: We still need the buttons in the same places thought Marketing: button will be on the upper side buttons will be the on the upper side Project Manager: You can standardise those I mean Marketing: buttons will be on the upper side lower side we will just put the casing User Interface: Oh that is the other side Oh Marketing: so half of that will be look the User Interface: Oh half a fruit Oh Marketing: not not the upper side So from lower you can it means while you are holding of from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look whatever So in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything we will just design casings fruit shape Project Manager: I think though I think if you are going to have a facia then you would want to have it so that it does go over the buttons because when if you think about it if they are wanting it because they want to look at it if they are using it and what they want to look at is facing away from them It does not really You know because that would be in the palm of their hand and they would not be able to see it unless you have sort of you got the buttons options on one side and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down And you have got the facia and you can just talk at the So you have narrowed it down to half a dozen options Industrial Designer: s I guess we decided on material right ? So that that spongy latex rubber everything feel and the colours we got down and the shape maybe we will just make it kind of mix and match type of shape or User Interface: Well because Well I I am not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing because I think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and because what Project Manager: so we stick with what we have got there User Interface: w I think wh wha would we are trying to get to twenty five thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said They wanted something that looks fancy and I think maybe fruit could be a bit of a too much of a gimmick but something ergonomically shaped and organic like good to hold based on fruits and natural things like that because al already we are going a bit gaudy with the yellow you know I mean we could make it nice pale yellow Project Manager: Well it is kind of got to be our companys yellow So again I mean like we could have I mean we could quite easily have the the main body be a different User Interface: Maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with you said the logan the slogan Project Manager: I mean e even if I mean not necessarily that the the whole body has to be of the company colour so you know blue and yellow tend to go to we well together So you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing Industrial Designer: Great as for the energy source you know almost every remote control uses just batteries but we do not have to be limited by that We can use a handdynamo I do not know what that means we crank it ? Project Manager: It is I think it is basically the more you move i it it is got a wee thing inside that just kind of powers it Industrial Designer: Right it is like those watches that you c So this might be an idea for something that people really want to grab you can shake it if it is out of power User Interface: Oh a d a dynamo ? like with those watches that you kind of twist Industrial Designer: So if it if it is not working I guess peoples natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing Project Manager: You shake it and scream at it Marketing: But but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo tha these type of cells ? Because then people have to well like if the cell is out of bat Project Manager: It does leave them with an obligation to Especially if they want to use it sp specifically as voice activated Marketing: because most of the people Project Manager: Then if it is just sitting on the User Interface: then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then Project Manager: Right what are the other options ? Marketing: solar power will w also not be a good idea because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy and the days when there is no sola sunlight Project Manager: I am I am with Raj on that I have got I have got no I have got a north facing house there is not really ever sun coming in my window Marketing: I think we should a rechargeable battery will be a good idea User Interface: But w like just normal light ? Marketing: They can they can recharge it Project Manager: I mean I w I w that idea that I thought just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother User Interface: And we are a very environmentally friendly company are not we as well ? Project Manager: having a rechargeable stand so that not only it doubles as a stand but for using it as recharging it but also for using it as sound recognition User Interface: Like like a hand like one of those portable phones kind of thing Industrial Designer: the user interface the buttons I guess we talked about this already Project Manager: What is chip on print ? What is Industrial Designer: th the the electronics basically the more features we add Oops this one So the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in","In the second half of the meeting, the team discussed the details of the features and appearances of the new remotes. Lots of ideas and proposals were raised, but many of them were denied or modified later. In the end, the team reached a consensus that their new remotes would have batteries that could be recharged, pale yellow slogans, fruits-based shapes and sponge rubber material." "Industrial Designer: So you know as we said we got the outer casing which we have to decide you know what is it going to be the board we have to use basically the same setup processor we will probably use the more advanced processor than they had amplifier and transmitter are all standard so for the casing this an email I got from our manufacturing team you know we have a bunch of options from wood titanium rubber plastic whatnot latex doublecurved curved So lots of choices what do we think ? or sponge I guess is not on there right User Interface: Mm I am not sure about the sponge Project Manager: Well I mean like la latex has a kind of spongy feeling to it does not it Industrial Designer: it is very elasticy for sure Project Manager: And that would k also give it kind of durability and ther that is also f sorta relatively cheap to cast so maybe s a sort of plastic initial plastic with a a latex kind of sheath ? Industrial Designer: so here are a a plastic latex User Interface: I like the rubber the stress balls I think you know that could be a bit of a gimmick like it is good to hold and","The team was offered a bunch of options about the material of the outer casing from wood, titanium, rubber, plastic, latex, double-curved, curved, sponge, etc. After discussion, they decided that they would have the sponge rubber as their outer casing because it had the elasticity and durability which they needed. Also, this kind of material was cheap to cast." "User Interface: Like an hour glass kind of figure is that what you are thinking of Project Manager: it is that that would be that is sort of comfortable to hold easy to hold so you do not drop it User Interface: or just like a It is not Industrial Designer: What about a banana ? User Interface: We could make novelty remote controls Industrial Designer: ? like we could have a big banana shaped remote control because it is yellow fruit Project Manager: Mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip User Interface: But then how would you point it ? How would you point it ? Industrial Designer: Oh i it does not matter which end you point I guess We could have a little LEDs on each end Marketing: because then this this will help us in our advertisement also and we can relate with fruits and vegetables the peoples choices That what our data shows that so this w this w User Interface: y I am I am not sure about the banana idea Industrial Designer: So a spongy banana re Project Manager: I mean that that th it does seem a bit again childish maybe User Interface: I think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape And what else did you say about fashions ? What was trendy ? Marketing: the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables Industrial Designer: So maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable like so it would have a stem perhaps maybe a it would be s axially symmetric User Interface: Like what is what is that I do not even know the name of it some kind of you know where it is like looks like a little snowman kind of thing I do not know the name of that Industrial Designer: So it would look like this kind of User Interface: that is what I was thinking Industrial Designer: Like a gourd almost or a squash of some sort ? User Interface: maybe that is what they are Because that you can hold it in like the bottom bit Industrial Designer: and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say you know it transmits from this end Project Manager: why the hell not Let us that will make us fifty million Euros User Interface: I do not know What do you guy What do you think ? Project Manager: Well I guess it is kind of dra you do not necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape Marketing: then only we can relate it with something Project Manager: we can relate it by advertising or Industrial Designer: so doublecurved singlecurved what do we feel ? Marketing: Or we can do something we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey let the public choose what they want Project Manager: There is a good man There is a good idea Industrial Designer: I guess since you are the marketing guy Marketing: sure I will be happy to do that","The Industrial Designer first proposed to use the shape of a banana. However, the Project Manager thought it might be a little bit childish. Then, the User Interface suggested drawing on the kind of fruits and vegetable shape. After a period of discussion, the team decided to design two or three shapes and had a public survey, letting the public choose what they want." "Grad E: huh So that was encouraging And that that that s encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like And another issue I m I m thinking about is in the SmartKom system So say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? And So I w bef before Back in May I did some experiments using say two seconds or four seconds or six seconds In those I trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds or four seconds or six seconds And here I was curious what if I trained the models using twelve seconds but I f I gave it a situation where the test set I was subtracted using two seconds or four seconds or six seconds And So I did that for about three different conditions And I mean I th I think it was four se I think I think it was something like four seconds and six seconds and eight seconds Something like that And it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models comment using th that same length of time but it it does not hurt that much you usually less than point five percent although I think I did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate But this is w where even if I train on the model and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test it the word error rate is around ten percent or nine percent So it does not seem like that big a d a difference Professor C: But it but looking at it the other way is not it what you are saying that it did not help you to have the longer time for training if you were going to have a short time for I mean why would you do it if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing PhD A: it seems like for your I mean in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech right ? I m not e you PhD B: You need twelve seconds in the past to estimate right ? Or l or you are looking at six sec seconds in future and six in Grad E: N n For the test it s just twelve seconds in the past PhD B: No it s all Oh OK PhD A: Is this twelve seconds of regardless of speech or silence ? Or twelve seconds of speech ? Professor C: The other thing which maybe relates a little bit to something else we ve talked about in terms of windowing and so on is that I wonder if you trained with twelve seconds and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds and when you were four seconds in you used four seconds and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds So that if you have very long utterances you have the best but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can Grad E: Right And that s actually what we are planning to do in But s so I g So I guess the que the question I was trying to get at with those experiments is `` does it matter what models you use ? Does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were tra doing the training data ? `` Professor C: Right But I mean the other thing is that that s I mean the other way of looking at this going back to mean cepstral subtraction versus RASTA kind of things is that you could look at mean cepstral subtraction especially the way you are doing it as being a kind of filter And so the other thing is just to design a filter You know basically you are you are you are doing a high pass filter or a band pass filter of some sort and and just design a filter And then you know a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing And and you know it will if you have an IIR filter for instance it will not behave in the steady state way that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period but by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction of the mean you are kind of you know tying your hands behind your back because there s filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectral behaviors And the only thing you know consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequency component PhD B: But do you really want to calculate the mean ? And you neglect all the silence regions comment or you just use everything that s twelve seconds and Grad E: you do you mean in my tests so far ? Most of the silence has been cut out Just There s just inter word silences PhD B: Mm And they are like pretty short Shor Mm So you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it Grad E: Well if I only use six seconds it still works pretty well I saw in my test before I was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best pause in my test before and that increasing past twelve seconds did not seem to help th I guess it s something I need to play with more to decide how to set that up for the SmartKom system Like may maybe if I trained on six seconds it would work better when I only had two seconds or four seconds and Professor C: and again if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time I mean if you computed means over two and then over four and over six essentially what you are getting at is a kind of ramp up of a filter anyway And so you may may just want to think of it as a filter But if you do that then in practice somebody using the SmartKom system one would think comment if they are using it for a while it means that their first utterance instead of you know getting a forty percent error rate reduction they will get a over what you would get without this policy you get thirty percent And then the second utterance that you give they get the full you know full benefit of it if it s this ongoing thing PhD A: Oh so you you cache the utterances ? That s how you get your Professor C: Well I m saying in practice","The log magnitude spectral subtraction used twelve seconds from the past and future to calculate the mean. The short window did not have a big effect on the model performance, which was much desired. The silence, for the most part, had been cut out to make the model more effective. The professor added that the system was similar to caching utterances." "Professor C: and again if you take this filtering perspective and if you essentially have it build up over time I mean if you computed means over two and then over four and over six essentially what you are getting at is a kind of ramp up of a filter anyway And so you may may just want to think of it as a filter But if you do that then in practice somebody using the SmartKom system one would think comment if they are using it for a while it means that their first utterance instead of you know getting a forty percent error rate reduction they will get a over what you would get without this policy you get thirty percent And then the second utterance that you give they get the full you know full benefit of it if it s this ongoing thing PhD A: Oh so you you cache the utterances ? That s how you get your Professor C: Well I m saying in practice that s If somebody s using a system to ask for directions or something you know they will say something first And and to begin with if it does not get them quite right ma m maybe they will come back and say `` excuse me ? `` or some I mean it should have some policy like that anyway And and in any event they might ask a second question And it s not like what he s doing does not improve things It does improve things just not as much as he would like And so there s a higher probability of it making an error in the first utterance PhD A: What would be really cool is if you could have this probably users would never like this but if you had could have a system where before they began to use it they had to introduce themselves verbally You know `` Hi my name is so and so I m from blah blah blah `` And you could use that initial speech to do all these adaptations and Professor C: Oh the other thing I guess which which I do not know much about as much as I should about the rest of the system but but could not you if you if you sort of did a first pass I do not know what kind of capability we have at the moment for for doing second passes on on some kind of little small lattice or a graph or confusion network or something But if you did first pass with the with either without the mean sub subtraction or with a a very short time one and then once you actually had the whole utterance in if you did the longer time version then based on everything that you had and then at that point only used it to distinguish between you know top N possible utterances or something you you might it might not take very much time I mean I know in the large vocabulary stu systems people were evaluating on in the past some people really pushed everything in to make it in one pass but other people did not and had multiple passes And the argument against multiple passes was you you has often been `` but we want to this to be r you know have a nice interactive response `` And the counterargument to that which say BBN I think had comment was `` but our second responses are second passes and third passes are really really fast `` So if if your second pass takes a millisecond who cares ? Grad E: S so the the idea of the second pass would be waiting till you have more recorded speech ? Or ? Professor C: so if it turned out to be a problem that you did not have enough speech because you need a longer longer window to do this processing then one tactic is you know looking at the larger system and not just at the front end stuff comment is to take in the speech with some simpler mechanism or shorter time mechanism do the best you can and come up with some al possible alternates of what might have been said And either in the form of an N best list or in the form of a lattice or or confusion network or whatever And then the decoding of that is much much faster or can be much much faster if it is not a big bushy network And you can decode that now with speech that you ve actually processed using this longer time subtraction So I mean it s it s common that people do this sort of thing where they do more things that are more complex or require looking over more time whatever in some kind of second pass and again if the second pass is really really fast another one I ve heard of is is in in connected digit stuff going back and l and through backtrace and finding regions that are considered to be a d a digit but which have very low energy","The professor suggested that the model essentially improved performance after the first utterance as it had more data. There was a higher error probability for the first utterance. This issue could potentially be resolved using a second-pass system, in which the initial utterance was processed differently." "Grad E: huh So that was encouraging And that that that s encouraging for for the idea of using it in an interactive system like And another issue I m I m thinking about is in the SmartKom system So say twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? And So I w bef before Back in May I did some experiments using say two seconds or four seconds or six seconds In those I trained the models using mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds or four seconds or six seconds And here I was curious what if I trained the models using twelve seconds but I f I gave it a situation where the test set I was subtracted using two seconds or four seconds or six seconds And So I did that for about three different conditions And I mean I th I think it was four se I think I think it was something like four seconds and six seconds and eight seconds Something like that And it seems like it it it hurts compared to if you actually train the models comment using th that same length of time but it it does not hurt that much you usually less than point five percent although I think I did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate But this is w where even if I train on the model and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test it the word error rate is around ten percent or nine percent So it does not seem like that big a d a difference Professor C: But it but looking at it the other way is not it what you are saying that it did not help you to have the longer time for training if you were going to have a short time for I mean why would you do it if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing PhD A: it seems like for your I mean in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech right ? I m not e you PhD B: You need twelve seconds in the past to estimate right ? Or l or you are looking at six sec seconds in future and six in Grad E: N n For the test it s just twelve seconds in the past PhD B: No it s all Oh OK PhD A: Is this twelve seconds of regardless of speech or silence ? Or twelve seconds of speech ? Professor C: The other thing which maybe relates a little bit to something else we ve talked about in terms of windowing and so on is that I wonder if you trained with twelve seconds and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds and when you were four seconds in you used four seconds and when you were six and you basically build up to the twelve seconds So that if you have very long utterances you have the best but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can Grad E: Right And that s actually what we are planning to do in But s so I g So I guess the que the question I was trying to get at with those experiments is `` does it matter what models you use ? Does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were tra doing the training data ? ``",Grad E thought that the idea of doing mean log magnitude spectral subtraction was figuring out the effect of training time on the model performance. It seemed that longer times had diminishing returns after a certain point. "PhD D: so this is the first thing another thing that I it s important to mention is that this has a this has some additional latency Because when I do the smoothing it s a recursion that estimated the means so of the g of the gain curve And this is a filter that has some latency And I noticed that it s better if we take into account this latency So instead o of using the current estimated mean to subtract the current frame it s better to use an estimate that s some somewhere in the future PhD A: And that s what causes the latency ? OK PhD B: You mean the m the mean is computed o based on some frames in the future also ? PhD D: It s the recursion so it s it s the center recursion right ? and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds Professor C: One five ? Five zero ? PhD B: why why is that delay coming ? Like you estimate the mean ? PhD D: the mean estimation has some delay right ? I mean the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant PhD B: It is not OK so it s like it looks into the future also OK Professor C: What if you just look into the past ? PhD D: It s not as good It s not bad Professor C: How m by how much ? PhD D: it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but mmm it It s around three percent relative Professor C: It s depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency PhD D: but So it depends y actually it s it s l it s three percent Right Mmm b but I do not think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno Mm Professor C: s I mean I think the only thing is that I would worry about it a little Because if we completely ignore latency and then we discover that we really have to do something about it we are going to be find ourselves in a bind So you know maybe you could make it twenty five You know what I mean ? just you know just be be a little conservative because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something PhD D: So there are other things in the algorithm that I did not a lot yet PhD A: Sorry A quick question just about the latency thing If if there s another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds is this an additive thing ? Or c or is yours hidden in that ? PhD D: No it s it s added PhD B: We can OK We can do something in parallel also in some like some cases like if you wanted to do voice activity detection And we can do that in parallel with some other filtering you can do So you can make a decision on that voice activity detection and then you decide whether you want to filter or not But by then you already have the sufficient samples to do the filtering So So sometimes you can do it anyway PhD A: I mean could not I Could not you just also I mean i if you know that the l the largest latency in the system is two hundred milliseconds do not you could not you just buffer up that number of frames and then everything uses that buffer ? And that way it s not additive ? Professor C: Well in fact everything is sent over in buffers cuz of is not it the TCP buffer some ? PhD B: You mean the the data the super frame or something ? but that has a variable latency because the last frame does not have any latency and first frame has a twenty framed latency So you can not r rely on that latency all the time Because I mean the transmission over over the air interface is like a buffer So But the only thing is that the first frame in that twenty four frame buffer has a twenty four frame latency And the last frame does not have any latency Because it just goes as PhD A: I was not thinking of that one in particular but more of you know if if there is some part of your system that has to buffer twenty frames can not the other parts of the system draw out of that buffer and therefore not add to the latency ? Professor C: And and that s sort of one of the all of that sort of stuff is things that they are debating in their standards committee PhD D: Mm So there is comment these parameters that I still have to to look at Like I played a little bit with this overestimation factor but I still have to to look more at this at the level of noise I add after I know that adding noise helped the system just using spectral subtraction without smoothing but I do not know right now if it s still important or not and if the level I choose before is still the right one Same thing for the shape of the the noise Maybe it would be better to add just white noise instead of speech shaped noise Professor C: That would be more like the JRASTA thing in a sense PhD D: Mm yep and another thing is to for this I just use as noise estimate the mean spectrum of the first twenty frames of each utterance I do not remember for this experiment what did you use for these two stage PhD B: I used ten just ten frames because I mean the reason was like in TI digits I do not have a lot I had twenty frames most of the time PhD D: Mm But so what s this result you told me about the fact that if you use more than ten frames you can improve by t PhD B: Well that s that s using the channel zero If I use a channel zero VAD to estimate the noise PhD D: But this is ten frames plus plus no these results with two stage Wiener filtering is ten frames but possibly more I mean if channel one VAD gives you OK but in this experiment I did I did not use any VAD I just used the twenty first frame to estimate the noise And So I expected it to be a little bit better if I use more more frames OK that s it for spectral subtraction The second thing I was working on is to try to look at noise estimation comment mmm and using some technique that does not need voice activity detection and for this I you simply used some code that I had from from Belgium which is technique that takes a bunch of frame and for each frequency bands of this frame takes a look at the minima of the energy And then average these minima and take this as an an energy estimate of the noise for this particular frequency band And there is something more to this actually What is done is that these minima are computed based on high resolution spectra So I compute an FFT based on the long signal frame which is sixty four millisecond PhD A: So you have one minimum for each frequency ? PhD D: What what I what I d I do actually is to take a bunch of to take a tile on the spectrogram and this tile is five hundred milliseconds long and two hundred hertz wide And this tile in this tile appears like the harmonics if you have a voiced sound because it s it s the FTT bins And when you take the m the minima of of these this tile when you do not have speech these minima will give you some noise level estimate If you have voiced speech these minima will still give you some noise estimate because the minima are between the harmonics And If you have other other kind of speech sounds then it s not the case but if the time frame is long enough like s five hundred milliseconds seems to be long enough comment you still have portions which are very close whi which minima are very close to the noise energy Professor C: I m confused You said five hundred milliseconds but you said sixty four milliseconds Which is which ? What ? PhD D: Sixty four milliseconds is to compute the FFT bins actually it s better to use sixty four milliseconds because if you use thirty milliseconds then because of the this short windowing and at low pitch sounds the harmonics are not wha correctly separated So if you take these minima it b they will overestimate the noise a lot Professor C: So you take sixty four millisecond F F Ts and then you average them comment over five hundred ? Or ? what do you do over five hundred ? PhD D: So I take to I take a bunch of these sixty four millisecond frame to cover five hundred milliseconds and then I look for the minima on the on on the bunch of fifty frames right ? Mmm So the interest of this is that as y with this technique you can estimate you some reasonable noise spectra with only five hundred milliseconds of of signal so if the the n the noise varies a lot you can track better track the noise which is not the case if you rely on the voice activity detector So even if there are no no speech pauses you can track the noise level The only requirement is that you must have in these five hundred milliseconds segment comment you must have voiced sound at least Cuz this these will help you to to track the the noise level So what I did is just to simply replace the VAD based noise estimate by this estimate first on SpeechDat Car Well only on SpeechDat Car actually And it s slightly worse like one percent relative compared to the VAD based pause estimates I think the reason why it s not better is that the SpeechDat Car noises are all stationary So you y y there really is no need to have something that s adaptive and well they are mainly stationary But I expect s maybe some improvement on TI digits because nnn in this case the noises are all sometimes very variable so I have to test it Mmm Professor C: But are you comparing with something e I m I m p s a little confused again i it when you compare it with the V A D based VAD Is this is this the ? PhD D: It s It s the France Telecom based spectra s Wiener filtering and VAD So it s their system but just I replace their noise estimate by this one Professor C: Oh you are not doing this with our system ? PhD D: In i I m not No no it s our system but with just the Wiener filtering from their system Right ? Mmm Actually th the best system that we still have is our system but with their noise compensation scheme right ? So I m trying to improve on this and by by replacing their noise estimate by something that might be better Professor C: OK But the spectral subtraction scheme that you reported on also re requires a a noise estimate Could not you try this for that ? Do you think it might help ? PhD D: Not yet because I did this in parallel and I was working on one and the other for for sure I will I can try also mmm the spectral subtraction PhD B: So I m also using that n new noise estimate technique on this Wiener filtering what I m trying So I I have like some experiments running I do not have the results I do not estimate the f noise on the ten frames but use his estimate PhD D: Mm I also implemented a sp spectral whitening idea which is in the Ericsson proposal the idea is just to flatten the log spectrum and to flatten it more if the the probability of silence is higher So in this way you can also reduce somewhat reduce the musical noise and you reduce the variability if you have different noise shapes because the the spectrum becomes more flat in the silence portions With this no improvement but there are a lot of parameters that we can play with and Actually this this could be seen as a soft version of the frame dropping because you could just put the threshold and say that `` below the threshold I will flatten comp completely flatten the the spectrum `` And above this threshold keep the same spectrum So it would be like frame dropping because during the silence portions which are below the threshold of voice activity probability comment w you would have some kind of dummy frame which is a perfectly flat spectrum And this whitening is something that s more soft because you whiten you just have a function the whitening is a function of the speech probability so it s not a hard decision so I think maybe it can be used together with frame dropping and when we are not sure about if it s speech or silence well maybe it has something do with this Professor C: It s interesting I mean you know in in JRASTA we were essentially adding in white white noise dependent on our estimate of the noise On the overall estimate of the noise I think it never occurred to us to use a probability in there You could imagine one that that that made use of where where the amount that you added in was a function of the probability of it being s speech or noise",PhD D informed the team that there was additional latency in the system with spectral subtraction. The professor wanted the team to be cognizant of the latency. The team suggested a spectral whitening approach or using a probability focused approach to solve the problem. "Professor C: It s depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency PhD D: but So it depends y actually it s it s l it s three percent Right Mmm b but I do not think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno Mm Professor C: s I mean I think the only thing is that I would worry about it a little Because if we completely ignore latency and then we discover that we really have to do something about it we are going to be find ourselves in a bind So you know maybe you could make it twenty five You know what I mean ? just you know just be be a little conservative","The professor wanted to make sure that the team does not end up in a bind. If they later had to cut latency, it would create a problem. This was his preferred conservative approach." "PhD D: It s the recursion so it s it s the center recursion right ? and the latency of this recursion is around fifty milliseconds Professor C: One five ? Five zero ? PhD B: why why is that delay coming ? Like you estimate the mean ? PhD D: the mean estimation has some delay right ? I mean the the filter that that estimates the mean has a time constant PhD B: It is not OK so it s like it looks into the future also OK Professor C: What if you just look into the past ? PhD D: It s not as good It s not bad Professor C: How m by how much ? PhD D: it helps a lot over the ba the baseline but mmm it It s around three percent relative Professor C: It s depending on how all this stuff comes out we may or may not be able to add any latency PhD D: but So it depends y actually it s it s l it s three percent Right Mmm b but I do not think we have to worry too much on that right now while you kno Mm Professor C: s I mean I think the only thing is that I would worry about it a little Because if we completely ignore latency and then we discover that we really have to do something about it we are going to be find ourselves in a bind So you know maybe you could make it twenty five You know what I mean ? just you know just be be a little conservative because we may end up with this crunch where all of a sudden we have to cut the latency in half or something PhD D: So there are other things in the algorithm that I did not a lot yet PhD A: Sorry A quick question just about the latency thing If if there s another part of the system that causes a latency of a hundred milliseconds is this an additive thing ? Or c or is yours hidden in that ? PhD D: No it s it s added PhD B: We can OK We can do something in parallel also in some like some cases like if you wanted to do voice activity detection","The latency of the recursion was fifty milliseconds. The recursion added that much to the overall latency of the system. Though, PhD B suggested doing tasks in parallel to reduce total latency." "Industrial Designer: I am sorry to be late Project Manager: So this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting And opening and PMs of the meet minutes prototype presentation from Christine and Agnes Yes and evaluation criteria The finance it is from my side from the management and production evaluation Then closing So we have forty minutes to discuss and finalise and close the product and project and to move further so let us talk about maybe first for the prototype User Interface: I have done a presentation but it pretty much covers work that we have both done so if I am missing anything Christine can just correct me Project Manager: So shall I go to sorry Industrial Designer: thank you so you did a PowerPoint presentation good for you Project Manager: Yep S let us go to AMI User Interface: It is not the biggest PowerPoint presentation in the world but Project Manager: So in two or three or Marketing: Probably Technical pa I would think User Interface: think it is the last one No then this is the la that one final design It is named appropriately you just could not see the name can I have the mouse ? Thanks Alright so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape the material that we chose was wood and the colour would be customisable because you can stain the wood whatever colour so in terms of function you have to be able to turn the TV on and off volume and channel control menu control voice recognition control and we have incorporated the LCD screen on the flip panel as part of the design if we figure out it is too expensive well then you just take it off so to unveil our lovely product This is our remote control with the flip panel as you can see So if you lift up the panel you can see the lovely yellow LCD display this is actually hard to do The yellow button you have is the on off button so it is really big hard to miss You have the the red triangles are the toggles for changing the volume So up volume up down volume down The green are the channel changing S And it is one of those very light very touchable displays And then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom and on the righthand side you have the access to the menu on the TV and on the lefthand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition So this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time Additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and I suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front So that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control Industrial Designer: We have not specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed That depends on the s design of the circuit board inside and what room is left Project Manager: I think the microphone is on on the top on the middle the under the flip So that will be the safe so p any the chip it is not on the chip because you need to have microphone to Industrial Designer: No I mean it depends on the design of the circuit board User Interface: But it should not be under the flip either because you can have the remote control closed but you still might want to activate it by voice Project Manager: it is it is but my opinion I think it is better under the flip because whenever you want to the talk so then you can speak then you can close it But if you put it on the on the flip then technical I do not think it is feasible because most of the time you speak then it will be recognised User Interface: But if you have already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice why use the voice why not just use your hand ? I mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and I am too lazy to reach over and pick it up I can just use my voice Industrial Designer: Maybe I have got my hand in the popcorn bowl and I am holding my cup of CocaCola in the other hand User Interface: And you do not want to let go of either one Marketing: I do not want to say Louder User Interface: I mean it does not have to be on the flip it can be on the side somewhere Marketing: Can also be on the side Project Manager: the sides maybe is good User Interface: So I mean I can pass this around if anyone wants to Project Manager: Yes So it is maybe good idea Industrial Designer: y better you pass it around with a napkin Marketing: No because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have not been not be damaged or anything and it would be accessible all the time to voice Project Manager: So it is maybe good idea S s Industrial Designer: You need to work on the weight a little bit Project Manager: S I am fine I am satisfi User Interface: And maybe the shape of the buttons the little egg shapes are not the most economical but Industrial Designer: We are glad you are satisfied Project Manager: Of course it is it is it is looks more heo heavy but I think when it is completely maybe it is a less weight User Interface: I mean this is plasticene There is only so much you can do We could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well But And part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do not like something that is too light because they do not feel like they have enough control over it So I mean maybe this is excessively heavy but I think it needs to have some weight it needs to feel like you are still holding something So that is pretty much it for our presentation actually Project Manager: That is your prototype model ? that is good thank you very much Marketing: Well the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we have we have talked about on the previous meetings","User Interface presented the function, customizability and appearance (colour, material and shape) of the remote control. Then the group discussed the location of the microphone as well as the weight and shape of the buttons. Project Manager suggested that the microphone should be under the flip while User Interface argued that it should be on the side. User Interface also proposed that the buttons should be made in egg shape and of plasticine." "Industrial Designer: I am sorry to be late Project Manager: So this meeting agenda will be the detailed design meeting And opening and PMs of the meet minutes prototype presentation from Christine and Agnes Yes and evaluation criteria The finance it is from my side from the management and production evaluation Then closing So we have forty minutes to discuss and finalise and close the product and project and to move further so let us talk about maybe first for the prototype User Interface: I have done a presentation but it pretty much covers work that we have both done so if I am missing anything Christine can just correct me Project Manager: So shall I go to sorry Industrial Designer: thank you so you did a PowerPoint presentation good for you Project Manager: Yep S let us go to AMI User Interface: It is not the biggest PowerPoint presentation in the world but Project Manager: So in two or three or Marketing: Probably Technical pa I would think User Interface: think it is the last one No then this is the la that one final design It is named appropriately you just could not see the name can I have the mouse ? Thanks Alright so from when we were discussing specifying the case in the last meeting we decided that we wanted an ergonomic shape the material that we chose was wood and the colour would be customisable because you can stain the wood whatever colour so in terms of function you have to be able to turn the TV on and off volume and channel control menu control voice recognition control and we have incorporated the LCD screen on the flip panel as part of the design if we figure out it is too expensive well then you just take it off so to unveil our lovely product This is our remote control with the flip panel as you can see So if you lift up the panel you can see the lovely yellow LCD display this is actually hard to do The yellow button you have is the on off button so it is really big hard to miss You have the the red triangles are the toggles for changing the volume So up volume up down volume down The green are the channel changing S And it is one of those very light very touchable displays And then you have the numeric pad in the dark blue at the bottom and on the righthand side you have the access to the menu on the TV and on the lefthand side you have the the the ability to turn off the voice recognition So this is pretty much what we had on the white board the last time Additional feature on the back is that you can have your own customised backing and I suppose you could do the same thing on the flip case on the front So that you can really make this a highly highly customisable remote control","User Interface suggested that the prototype of the remote control would have an ergonomic shape, be made out of wood and the colour would be customisable. User Interface also introduced the general layout of the white board under the flip: the big yellow button would be charged for turning the TV on and off, the red triangle one would be used to change the volume, while the green one controlled the channel changing. There would be a dark blue numeric pad at the bottom and an LCD screen on the flip panel. The prototype would have a customised backing and front." "Industrial Designer: We have not specified where the speaker or the microphone will be placed That depends on the s design of the circuit board inside and what room is left Project Manager: I think the microphone is on on the top on the middle the under the flip So that will be the safe so p any the chip it is not on the chip because you need to have microphone to Industrial Designer: No I mean it depends on the design of the circuit board User Interface: But it should not be under the flip either because you can have the remote control closed but you still might want to activate it by voice Project Manager: it is it is but my opinion I think it is better under the flip because whenever you want to the talk so then you can speak then you can close it But if you put it on the on the flip then technical I do not think it is feasible because most of the time you speak then it will be recognised User Interface: But if you have already got the remote control in your hand you need to open the flip to use the voice why use the voice why not just use your hand ? I mean the whole point of the voice is that if the remote control is sitting there and I am too lazy to reach over and pick it up I can just use my voice Industrial Designer: Maybe I have got my hand in the popcorn bowl and I am holding my cup of CocaCola in the other hand User Interface: And you do not want to let go of either one Marketing: I do not want to say Louder User Interface: I mean it does not have to be on the flip it can be on the side somewhere Marketing: Can also be on the side Project Manager: the sides maybe is good User Interface: So I mean I can pass this around if anyone wants to Project Manager: Yes So it is maybe good idea Industrial Designer: y better you pass it around with a napkin Marketing: No because y you can easily put a microphone on the side that would have no problem would have not been not be damaged or anything and it would be accessible all the time to voice Project Manager: So it is maybe good idea S s Industrial Designer: You need to work on the weight a little bit Project Manager: S I am fine I am satisfi User Interface: And maybe the shape of the buttons the little egg shapes are not the most economical but Industrial Designer: We are glad you are satisfied Project Manager: Of course it is it is it is looks more heo heavy but I think when it is completely maybe it is a less weight User Interface: I mean this is plasticene There is only so much you can do We could have possibly made it a lot thinner as well But And part of the thing is m a lot of people say that they do not like something that is too light because they do not feel like they have enough control over it So I mean maybe this is excessively heavy but I think it needs to have some weight it needs to feel like you are still holding something So that is pretty much it for our presentation actually Project Manager: That is your prototype model ? that is good thank you very much Marketing: Well the prototype is is very well within the design and ideas that we have we have talked about on the previous meetings","Industrial Designer proposed to specify the location of the microphone. Project Manager and User Interface disagreed with each other. Project Manager thought the microphone should be under the flip so that users could easily turn off the voice recognition, whereas User Interface insisted that microphone should be on the side so that the remote control could be activated by voice even when out of reach." "User Interface: What turnaround time do we have ? Because I mean production evaluation can be very very quick or very very long Project Manager: Oh but Yes it is it is very quick of course It will come back in two weeks it will be ready in two weeks Yes the prototype prototype product evaluation Industrial Designer: In We probably should do some market tests once we have the prototypes and do some orders and things like that and testmarket it Marketing: Mm that would have to be thrown out on the market for people to get an idea Project Manager: So you can take a minimum two weeks to a maximum four weeks Marketing: to see get get their User Interface: Mmhmm Think minimum two weeks if we are going to develop prototypes and then try to take them to different places and see how people use it is not a trivial task Project Manager: because we we are not going to do it in our factory so we can give it a product evalua User Interface: No no We definitely should not do it in our factory Project Manager: So we will do it in the other place and I do not think it is take more than four weeks time Or so then the real production we will start once we product evaluation then it is approve from the technical team and your team from the management then we can launch in the market Hm ? S Any any other questions or comments to be discuss ? Marketing: I think we pretty much covered everything Industrial Designer: Did you have something ? User Interface: Well I was just wondering about if we are going to do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad this is bad we want this done differently Project Manager: let us take like this Let us proceed with this model for the for the marketing direction So no more changes will be made in this the basic design ? So we will introduce m this model and let us introduce in the market and let us take the feedback from the customers then we can go for the There is no end there is not limit User Interface: The problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have not thought of Marketing: Well then it may not be Project Manager: Well every customer they have their own ideas they have their own test so there is no end there is no limit Marketing: Like people do not like wood User Interface: No but there is a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and finetuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do not really have anything to back it up Project Manager: so that is the reason you are here for the design I hope you made a good design User Interface: Yes but I am not everybody I mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need We have our own motivations in mind we have our own ideas in mind but that does not mean that that is what is going to sell Project Manager: but see we ought to take a few considerations one is the price consideration one is future consideration like you can eat you can all eat more chi I can eat more chilli so i it is a depends on the individual taste you know so we have we have to balance somewhere User Interface: of course I am just trying to point out that I think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally but in the project we have no redesign time and Industrial Designer: Ed d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for TV remote control sales ? Would it be the Christmas season by any chance ? Sports season Which sport season ? Marketing: Right before the Eur the World Cup World soccer World Cup soccer they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control Industrial Designer: So I think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a usertested device with some special event User Interface: that is a good idea Industrial Designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated because I do not know when the World Cup is but I am sure there is going to be one Or another m major sports event Probably not the the football games coming up the end of January I think that might be a little too aggressive but so I am just ig pointing out a a strategy to do some additional user testing pri and then to launch at a a major sports event User Interface: That is actually good place to advertise it too Industrial Designer: And to work with motion pictures There might be some motion pictures that are coming out that are coming out on DVD that they need to have a m special remote control to work with it so we could maybe work out a campaign with with Sony Pictures for example Maybe some management has got relationships there we can leverage Project Manager: Yes the that of course I will convince the management to do that","Industrial Designer proposed to conduct a product evaluation by putting the prototype on the market to get feedback from the users. User Interface pointed out that there should be time for redesign while Project Manager insisted that no more change would be made on the original design and improvements made according to evaluation results would be on the second generation. What's more, Industrial Designer came up with a strategy to do additional user research by choosing the sports season and working with motion pictures." "User Interface: Well I was just wondering about if we are going to do a product evaluation then what about time for redesign if the users come back and tell us no this is bad this is bad we want this done differently Project Manager: let us take like this Let us proceed with this model for the for the marketing direction So no more changes will be made in this the basic design ? So we will introduce m this model and let us introduce in the market and let us take the feedback from the customers then we can go for the There is no end there is not limit User Interface: The problem is there might not be a second generation if the first generation flops for some silly reason that we have not thought of Marketing: Well then it may not be Project Manager: Well every customer they have their own ideas they have their own test so there is no end there is no limit Marketing: Like people do not like wood User Interface: No but there is a difference between releasing a product that has been minimally tested and finetuned to suit a general range of requirements versus releasing a product that we think will work but we do not really have anything to back it up Project Manager: so that is the reason you are here for the design I hope you made a good design User Interface: Yes but I am not everybody I mean the whole point of user evaluation is to see what real people need We have our own motivations in mind we have our own ideas in mind but that does not mean that that is what is going to sell Project Manager: but see we ought to take a few considerations one is the price consideration one is future consideration like you can eat you can all eat more chi I can eat more chilli so i it is a depends on the individual taste you know so we have we have to balance somewhere User Interface: of course I am just trying to point out that I think that your evaluation and redesign turnaround time is too short well you have no redesign not you personally but in the project we have no redesign time and","Because User Interface thought there should be a turnaround time between product evaluation and its formal release. User Interface believed that many products had been released to the market without being properly user-tested and didn't receive positive results, so the remote control should be minimally tested before redesigned and fine-tuned to suit a general range of requirements according to the feedback from product evaluation." "Industrial Designer: Ed d do you know what season of the year or time of the year is the most important for TV remote control sales ? Would it be the Christmas season by any chance ? Sports season Which sport season ? Marketing: Right before the Eur the World Cup World soccer World Cup soccer they need those things that they have their hands g occupied and they need to be able to talk to the con remote control Industrial Designer: So I think what we need to do is perhaps to synchronise the final the the launch of a usertested device with some special event User Interface: that is a good idea Industrial Designer: so that gives us a little more time perhaps then we anticipated because I do not know when the World Cup is but I am sure there is going to be one Or another m major sports event Probably not the the football games coming up the end of January I think that might be a little too aggressive but so I am just ig pointing out a a strategy to do some additional user testing pri and then to launch at a a major sports event User Interface: That is actually good place to advertise it too Industrial Designer: And to work with motion pictures There might be some motion pictures that are coming out that are coming out on DVD that they need to have a m special remote control to work with it so we could maybe work out a campaign with with Sony Pictures for example Maybe some management has got relationships there we can leverage Project Manager: Yes the that of course I will convince the management to do that",Industrial Designer proposed to choose a special time of year which is most important for the TV remote control sales to launch the product for user testing. Project Manager suggested the sports season which was right before the World Cup football and to work with motion pictures coming out on DVD that the users needed to have a special remote control to work with. The group intended to set up a campaign with picture companies. "Industrial Designer: we basically have the same kind of layout here it is just you hold it like this and it gets kind of moulded to the to the shape of your hand basically on the left we have got the scroll for the volume on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kind of so you can hold it and scroll or you can hold it and and push this is the power key it is kind of like the biggest so you know how to turn on that is the little menu key This is the infrared section so you g it will be sending rays and if you are you know pointing it like that it can send it or if you hold it up like that it will send it we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands so you can you know talk to it like that and it will still understand the logo is down down there and has the cover on it and you can see like it just kind of goes the red bits the cover and it kind of goes over everything and then there is holes for the buttons to come through User Interface: And so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic just kind of a light nondescript grey so that peoplell want to buy the covers and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make iPod covers so they kind of just stretch over Project Manager: I do not know what i c iPod covers are like User Interface: I I did not know that but they are kind of it is just kind of a rubbery and that way you know spongy like is something that people wanted and it just sort of stretches over and that way I think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well Industrial Designer: But it is also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kind of sometimes have to get someone to do that for you This is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself User Interface: just kind of stretch it over Industrial Designer: and it will be fine User Interface: and it will just stay on and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of them on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the RR Industrial Designer: Li that will be the covers as well Project Manager: I mean tha it is it is a detailed point I just wondered I mean h how will people put these down I wonder ? Right for some strange re reason I had it in my mind that they would put them down vertically Industrial Designer: Well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit so it would stand like that Project Manager: because particularly if they have dif if they are going to have it as a you know as a fashion item I mean it it is it it is just I mean it is just a minor detailed point but as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and Industrial Designer: we could just widen it out Project Manager: and it just needs another another logo somewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they have got them because actually have several upon the Marketing: Could have one for your stereo one for your DV player Industrial Designer: Have to if we just lengthen it I guess so it comes down to the base of the hand Project Manager: but that that is but Industrial Designer: and then flatten it out Project Manager: the the the overall the overall concept is User Interface: Or just make it little Project Manager: no no I mean that is these User Interface: so it just sort of Industrial Designer: We might have to lengthen it Marketing: I kind of had a a kind of a natural kind of a idea Industrial Designer: so it kind of your hand still holds it and have it there Marketing: where it is like more of a kind of like a kind of maybe slightly like thinner kind of like that kind of like a flower or a plant Project Manager: But but no th but the the the the Marketing: for the more natural kind of Industrial Designer: The final product would actually stand up Project Manager: I mean it it is would not would not do that indeed But th th but th th b the these were all minor minor minor details I think the the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang on it certainly meets our criteria of being of you know looking different good that is that that is excellent","Industrial Designer introduced the prototype to the team. It included buttons for channel change, power, menu and also had a slider for the volume, an infra-red section and a microphone. The cover was interchangeable with a company logo on it. User Interface added that the holes for the buttons to come through would be plastic, while the cover would be made of rubber. The final product would stand up and could stretch over." "User Interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make iPod covers so they kind of just stretch over Project Manager: I do not know what i c iPod covers are like User Interface: I I did not know that but they are kind of it is just kind of a rubbery and that way you know spongy like is something that people wanted and it just sort of stretches over and that way I think probably helps protect it a little bit too as well Industrial Designer: But it is also e e easier to put on versus like mobile covers you actually have to screw them on and stuff and you kind of sometimes have to get someone to do that for you This is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourself User Interface: just kind of stretch it over Industrial Designer: and it will be fine User Interface: and it will just stay on and then the buttons come through and so and then the each one of them on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the RR Industrial Designer: Li that will be the covers as well Project Manager: I mean tha it is it is a detailed point I just wondered I mean h how will people put these down I wonder ? Right for some strange re reason I had it in my mind that they would put them down vertically Industrial Designer: Well we could broaden the broaden it out a bit so it would stand like that Project Manager: because particularly if they have dif if they are going to have it as a you know as a fashion item I mean it it is it it is just I mean it is just a minor detailed point but as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and Industrial Designer: we could just widen it out",User Interface proposed that the cover should be made of rubber and could stretch over. Project Manager agreed but asked Industrial Designer to broaden it out. Industrial Designer: we basically have the same kind of layout here it is just you hold it like this and it gets kind of moulded to the to the shape of your hand basically on the left we have got the scroll for the volume on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kind of so you can hold it and scroll or you can hold it and and push this is the power key it is kind of like the biggest so you know how to turn on that is the little menu key This is the infrared section so you g it will be sending rays and if you are you know pointing it like that it can send it or if you hold it up like that it will send it we got a microphone there which for all the voice commands so you can you know talk to it like that and it will still understand the logo is down down there and has the cover on it and you can see like it just kind of goes the red bits the cover and it kind of goes over everything and then there is holes for the buttons to come through,"The remote control would be moulded to the shape of the hand when people held it. On the left there was a slider for the volume, and on the right there were several buttons. The power key would be the biggest so that people knew how to turn on the television. There would also be a microphone for all the voice commands." "Marketing: Cheers There we go oh Method of evaluation testing the product was to just if it met all the criteria all the conditions that we set out to set out to solve from the point of view of the the consumer and the management So what I have been asked to do is on the whiteboard gauge our team response to these questions So on a scale of one to seven one being true and seven being being false Project Manager: Seven being a nice round number to work to Marketing: And then at the end just take an average Project Manager: Tr On for true and seven for flase Yes Marketing: So So look at these questions Is the device f flashy and fashionable ? Project Manager: Well I think most definitely Industrial Designer: I would say definitely a one Marketing: So and also technologically innovative ? Project Manager: Yes the voice technology indeed I do not see we could have made it any easier Marketing: suitable for the consumer ? That was User Interface: I think it made we met all of the consumer Marketing: Doing pretty well so far are not we ? functional ? We have b built in the the speech where are you function Project Manager: I mean that is that is Does it take long to learn to use ? Should not Marketing: Mmhmm And what else ? The RSI compares to the current standards Project Manager: Less buttons so it must be Marketing: it was our it was a Industrial Designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well Marketing: we made an actual effort to will device appeal to all age groups ? Project Manager: I think it will because I mean old older people who can not manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so Marketing: that is a good call Well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality the e ease of use of the device might make up for that Project Manager: And it is it is it is well I do not think we are actually charging a particular premium anyway in the end so Industrial Designer: I I I think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups just because we have gone with the fashion focus and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it but I think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody Project Manager: It will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it is it is User Interface: I think just the simplicity of it not having to learn to programme and not having you know a million buttons Project Manager: so I think we can reasonably say it is another another one Marketing: can you just click the my mouse to move onto next page ? and what h did we make the managements Project Manager: in in in in my interpretation of managements instructions is that yes it it meets the requirement is t it is television only it is it is simple to use it is it is it is within budget I it is yes an an any minor points we we we argue So I I think we have done an amazing job Marketing: So one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven Eleven divided by elevens one so equals average of one Project Manager: Need a need a calculator for that Marketing: And that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product Project Manager: nick the cable back then User Interface: I mixed up the colours a little bit I think I all wrong Project Manager: Ooh Right do either of you want to say anything ? User Interface: Ps I do not think so",Marketing believed that the remote control should be: fashionable; technologically innovative; easy to use; suitable for the customer; not complicated; functional; not inclined to cause RSI. Project Manager agreed and added that it should not take long to learn to use. "Marketing: will device appeal to all age groups ? Project Manager: I think it will because I mean old older people who can not manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like the voice bit so Marketing: that is a good call Well we had the we had the data saying that old people will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality the e ease of use of the device might make up for that Project Manager: And it is it is it is well I do not think we are actually charging a particular premium anyway in the end so Industrial Designer: I I I think it will tend to appeal more to younger aged groups just because we have gone with the fashion focus and the younger people tend to would be more conscious of that aspect of it but I think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody","Project Manager thought it would attract older people who couldn't manage the buttons as they would probably prefer speech recognition. However, Industrial Designer believed it tended to appeal more to younger aged groups as the team had gone with the fashion focus but then proposed that it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody." "Marketing: So So look at these questions Is the device f flashy and fashionable ? Project Manager: Well I think most definitely Industrial Designer: I would say definitely a one Marketing: So and also technologically innovative ? Project Manager: Yes the voice technology indeed I do not see we could have made it any easier Marketing: suitable for the consumer ? That was User Interface: I think it made we met all of the consumer Marketing: Doing pretty well so far are not we ? functional ? We have b built in the the speech where are you function Project Manager: I mean that is that is Does it take long to learn to use ? Should not Marketing: Mmhmm And what else ? The RSI compares to the current standards Project Manager: Less buttons so it must be Marketing: it was our it was a Industrial Designer: it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well","Industrial Designer agreed that the remote control should be fashionable, technologically innovative and suitable for customers and proposed that fewer buttons could make the handle more ergonomically correct." "Grad D: Let s get started The Should I go first with the data Can I have the remote control Thank you OK So On Friday we had our wizard test data test and these are some of the results This was the introduction I actually even though Liz was kind enough to offer to be the first subject I sort of felt that she knew too much so I asked Litonya just on the spur of the moment and she was kind enough to serve as the first subject So this is what she saw as part of as for instr introduction this is what she had to read pause aloud that was really difficult for her and Grad C: Because of l all the names you mean ? Grad D: The names and this was the first three tasks she had to to master after she called the system and then of course the system broke down and those were the l I should say the system was supposed to break down and then these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve with a human There are here are the results Mmm And I will not We will skip the reading now D And The reading was five minutes exactly And now comes the This is the phone in phase of Grad C: Wait can I I have a question So So there s no system right ? Like there was a wizard for both both parts is this right ? Grad D: It was bo it both times the same person One time pretending to be a system one time to pretending to be a human which is actually not pretending Grad C: OK And she did not I mean Well Is not this kind of obvious when it says `` OK now you are talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? Grad D: No no no We you Wait OK good question but you you just wait and see It s You are going to l learn And the wizard sometimes will not be audible Because she was actually they there was some lapse in the wireless we have to move her closer Grad A: Is she mispronouncing `` Anlage `` ? Is it `` Anlaga `` or `` Anlunga `` Grad D: but it s This is the system breaking down actually `` Did I call Europe ? `` So this is it Well if we we Professor B: So are are you trying to record this meeting ? Grad D: There was a strange reflex I have a headache I m really sort of out of it OK the lessons learned The reading needs to be shorter Five minutes is just too long that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here they are going to not they are subjects are probably not going to going to follow the order And she did not She she jumped around quite a bit Professor B: S so if you just number them `` one `` `` two `` `` three `` it s Grad D: and make it sort of clear in the We need to So that s one thing And we need a better introduction for the wizard That is something that Fey actually thought of a in the last second that sh the system should introduce itself when it s called And another suggestion by Liz was that we through subjects switch the tasks So when when they have task one with the computer the next person should have task one with a human and so forth So we get nice data for that we have to refine the tasks more and more which of course we have not done at all so far in order to avoid this rephrasing so where even though w we do not tell the person `` ask pause blah blah blah blah blah `` they still try or at least Litonya tried to repeat as much of that text as possible Grad C: Say exactly what s on there ? Grad D: And my suggestion is of course we we keep the wizard because I think she did a wonderful job in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for `` How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer `` so this is going to happen all the time we d you can never be sure Johno pointed out that we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard Grad A: I was not was not sure whether wizard was the correct term for pause `` not a man `` Grad C: There s no female equivalent of No I do not know Not that I know of Grad D: Well there is witch and warlock Grad C: that s what I was thinking but Grad D: OK And So some some work needs to be done but I think we can And this and in case no you had not seen it this is what Litonya looked at during the while taking the while partaking in the data collection Professor B: OK great So pause first of all I agree that we should hire Fey and start paying her Probably pay for the time she s put in as well do you know exactly how to do that or is Lila I mean you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? Grad D: I m completely clueless but I m willing to learn Professor B: OK Well you will have to Right So anyway So why do not you ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th Well she s un she s not a a student she just graduated but anyway So i if I agree she sounded fine she a actually was pause more present and stuff than than she was in conversation so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her So I think that s great Grad D: This is sort of what I gave her so this is for example h how to get to the student prison and I did not even spell it out here and in some cases I I spelled it out a little bit more thoroughly this is the information on on the low sunken castle and the amphitheater that never came up and so i if we give her even more instruments to work with I think the results are going to be even better Professor B: Oh and then of course as she does it she will she will learn So that s great pause And also if she s willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful And she s actually she s going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she s going to need to know to do her career So I my guess is she will be r r quite happy to take on that job And so Grad D: Yep she she did not explicitly state that so And I told her that we going to figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to find people She also agrees that you know if it s all just going to be students the data is going to be less valuable because of that so Professor B: Well as I say there is this s set of people next door it s not hard to Grad D: However we may run into a problem with a reading task there And we will see Professor B: We could talk to the people who run it and see if they have a way that they could easily tell people that there s a task pays ten bucks or something but you have to be comfortable reading relatively complicated stuff And and there will probably be self selection to some extent","The team listened to a recording of the interface's trial run. Litonya was asked to be the first subject of the interface and Fey acted as the wizard. The team was happy with Fey's performance and decided to hire her. Upon Fey's suggestion, they also decided that the wizard should be introduced in a more appropriate fashion. The team also agreed that the run was too long at 5 minutes." "Grad C: Wait can I I have a question So So there s no system right ? Like there was a wizard for both both parts is this right ? Grad D: It was bo it both times the same person One time pretending to be a system one time to pretending to be a human which is actually not pretending Grad C: OK And she did not I mean Well Is not this kind of obvious when it says `` OK now you are talking to a human `` and then the human has the same voice ? Grad D: No no no We you Wait OK good question but you you just wait and see",Grad C was concerned that the same person acting as the wizard and computer system might not be the best idea. Grad D had some way of making the wizard and computer seem distinct even though both were voiced by the same person and told Grad C that the recording would clarify things. "Professor B: OK great So pause first of all I agree that we should hire Fey and start paying her Probably pay for the time she s put in as well do you know exactly how to do that or is Lila I mean you know what exactly do we do to to put her on the payroll in some way ? Grad D: I m completely clueless but I m willing to learn Professor B: OK Well you will have to Right So anyway So why do not you ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in th Well she s un she s not a a student she just graduated but anyway So i if I agree she sounded fine she a actually was pause more present and stuff than than she was in conversation so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her So I think that s great Grad D: This is sort of what I gave her so this is for example h how to get to the student prison and I did not even spell it out here and in some cases I I spelled it out a little bit more thoroughly this is the information on on the low sunken castle and the amphitheater that never came up and so i if we give her even more instruments to work with I think the results are going to be even better Professor B: Oh and then of course as she does it she will she will learn So that s great pause And also if she s willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff that would be wonderful And she s actually she s going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learning things she s going to need to know to do her career","The Professor was very supportive of the idea of hiring Fey. He thought that it would be helpful since she was also willing to take over the task of organizing subjects. In addition, he believed the project would provide her with a valuable learning experience for her own upcoming graduate school work in experimental paradigms." "Professor B: Well here s the problem And and Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today is if we just do this we could wind up with a huge combinatoric input to the Mode thing And Grad A: Well I oh I unders I understand that I just it s hard for me to imagine how he could get around that Professor B: Well i But that s what we have to do OK so so There there are a variety of ways of doing it Let me just mention something that I do not want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and about Noisy OR s and Noisy MAXes and there are ways to sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes net edness so If you co you could i am about to and I now I do not know that any of those actually apply in this case but there is some technology you could try to apply Grad A: So it s possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that OK So in that case the sum we would have we I mean these would not be the summary nodes We would have the summary nodes like where the things were I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other Professor B: So what I was going to say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally I mean not necessarily in th in this meeting but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are So if you have some bottom line decision about which mode you know what are the most relevant things And the other trick which is not a technical trick it s kind of a knowledge engineering trick is to make the n pause each node sufficiently narrow that you do not get this combinatorics So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade off between three factors whatever they may be OK ? then you could say `` Aha let s have these three factors `` OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one And then the question would be if if those are the things that you care about can you make a relatively compact way of getting from the various inputs to the things you care about So that y so that you know you can sort of try to do a knowledge engineering thing given that we are not going to screw with the technology and just always use sort of orthodox Bayes nets then we have a knowledge engineering little problem of how do we do that and Grad A: So what I kind of need to do is to take this one and the old one and merge them together ? Professor B: `` Eh eh eh `` Well mmm something I mean so Robert has thought about this problem f for a long time cuz he s had these examples kicking around so he may have some good intuition about you know what are the crucial things and I understand where this the this is a way of playing with this abs Source path goal trajector exp abstraction and and sort of sh displaying it in a particular way I do not think our friends on Wednesday are going to be able to Well maybe they will Well let me think about whether whether I think we can present this to them or not Grad D: Well I think this is still I mean ad hoc This is sort of th the second version and I I I look at this maybe just as a you know a a whatever UML diagram or you know as just a screen shot not really as a Bayes net as John Johno said Grad A: We could actually y draw it in a different way in the sense that it would make it more abstract Grad D: But the the the nice thing is that you know it just is a is a visual aid for thinking about these things which has comple clearly have to be specified m more carefully Professor B: Alright well le let me think about this some more and see if we can find a way to present this to this linguists group that that is helpful to them Grad D: I mean ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of a module if you want to call it that that you can ask that you can give input and it it will throw the dice for you throw the die for you because I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in in the same way as much the same way we can sort of have this this thing Close this down So if this is what M three L will look like and what it will give us And a very simple thing We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere which is some type of object to someplace And this these this changed now only It s doing it twice now because it already did it once we will add some action type which in this case is `` Approach `` and could be you know more refined in many ways Or we can have something where the goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` Enter `` So this is just based on this one on this one feature and that s that s about all you can do And so in the f if this pla if the object type here is is a m is a landmark of course it will be `` Vista `` And this is about as much as we can do if we do not w if we want to avoid a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` OK if it s this and this but that is not the case `` and so forth it just gets really really messy Professor B: OK I m sorry You are you are It was much too quick for me OK so let me see if I understand what you are saying So I I do understand that you can take the M three L and add not and it w and you need to do this for sure we have to add you know not too much about object types and stuff and what I think you did is add some rules of the style that are already there that say `` If it s of type `` Landmark `` then you take you are going to take a picture of it `` F full stop I mean that s what you do Ev every landmark you take a picture of Grad D: Every public place you enter and statue you want to go as near as possible Professor B: you enter You approach OK and certainly you can add rules like that to the existing SmartKom system And you just did right ? OK Grad D: And it it would do us no good Professor B: Well So s well and let s think about this that s a that s another kind of baseline case that s another sort of thing `` OK here s a another kind of minimal way of tackling this `` Add extra properties a deterministic rule for every property you have an action `` pppt ! `` You do that then the question would be Now if that s all you are doing then you can get the types from the ontology OK ? because that s all you are all you are using is this type the types in the ontology and you are done Right ? So we do not we do not use the discourse we do not use the context we do not do any of those things Alright but that s but that s OK and I mean it it s again a kind of one minimal extension of the existing things And that s something the SmartKom people themselves would they would say `` Sure that s no problem you know no problem to add types to the ont `` Right ? Grad D: No And this is just in order to exemplify what what we can do very very easily is we have this this silly interface and we have the rules that are as banal as of we just saw and we have our content Now the content I whi which is sort of what what we see here which is sort of the Vista Schema Source Path Goal whatever This will be a job to find ways of writing down Image schema X schema constructions in some some form and have this be in a in a in the content loosely called `` Constructicon `` And the rules we want to throw away completely And and here is exactly where what s going to be replaced with our Bayes net which is exactly getting the input feeding into here This decides whether it s an whether action the the Enter the Vista or the whatever Professor B: `` approach `` you called it I think this time Grad D: Approach construction should be activated IE just pasted in Professor B: That s what you said that s fine but Right But it s not construction there it s action Construction is a d is a different story Grad A: Right This is so what we would be generating would be a reference to a semantic like parameters for the for the X schema ? Professor B: So that that i if you had the generalized `` Go `` X schema and you wanted to specialize it to these three ones then you would have to supply the parameters And then although we have not worried about this yet you might want to worry about something that would go to the GIS and use that to actually get you know detailed route planning So you know where do you do take a picture of it and stuff like that","The team was concerned that the combinatorial input that would result from the various linguistic and contextual schemas would be enormous for the Bayes net. The Professor suggested that it's best to narrow down the decision variables, perhaps by studying the trade-offs between different input factors. The team thought that perhaps they could keep the kinds of objects in the environment to a small subset and make rules governing actions around those objects." "Professor B: Well here s the problem And and Bhaskara and I was talking about this a little earlier today is if we just do this we could wind up with a huge combinatoric input to the Mode thing And Grad A: Well I oh I unders I understand that I just it s hard for me to imagine how he could get around that Professor B: Well i But that s what we have to do OK so so There there are a variety of ways of doing it Let me just mention something that I do not want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and about Noisy OR s and Noisy MAXes and there are ways to sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes net edness so If you co you could i am about to and I now I do not know that any of those actually apply in this case but there is some technology you could try to apply Grad A: So it s possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that OK So in that case the sum we would have we I mean these would not be the summary nodes We would have the summary nodes like where the things were I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other Professor B: So what I was going to say is is maybe a good at this point is to try to informally I mean not necessarily in th in this meeting but to try to informally think about what the decision variables are So if you have some bottom line decision about which mode you know what are the most relevant things And the other trick which is not a technical trick it s kind of a knowledge engineering trick is to make the n pause each node sufficiently narrow that you do not get this combinatorics So that if you decided that you could characterize the decision as a trade off between three factors whatever they may be OK ? then you could say `` Aha let s have these three factors `` OK ? and maybe a binary version f for each or some relatively compact decision node just above the final one",The professor was the one to raise the issue and suggested that a knowledge engineering trick could be used to narrow down inputs. He thought that perhaps adding deterministic rules to properties that have actions would be helpful and the property types could be retrieved from the ontology. Grad D: I mean ultimately we we may w w we regard this as sort of an exercise in in thinking about the problem and maybe a first version of a module if you want to call it that that you can ask that you can give input and it it will throw the dice for you throw the die for you because I integrated this into the existing SmartKom system in in the same way as much the same way we can sort of have this this thing Close this down So if this is what M three L will look like and what it will give us And a very simple thing We have an action that he wants to go from somewhere which is some type of object to someplace And this these this changed now only It s doing it twice now because it already did it once we will add some action type which in this case is `` Approach `` and could be you know more refined in many ways Or we can have something where the goal is a public place and it will give us then of course an action type of the type `` Enter `` So this is just based on this one on this one feature and that s that s about all you can do And so in the f if this pla if the object type here is is a m is a landmark of course it will be `` Vista `` And this is about as much as we can do if we do not w if we want to avoid a huge combinatorial explosion where we specify `` OK if it s this and this but that is not the case `` and so forth it just gets really really messy,"Grad D thought that the best way would be to add restrictive action types that are attached to the kind of object. For instance, there are specific actions that would be relevant to a landmark." "Industrial Designer: when we talk about components design it is really about the material and the and really the stuff we build the remote controls of a remote control consist of components and the components of a remote control consist of properties and material We have to choose th these wisely and it could affect a kind of grow of in in buying the remote controls the components of a remote control are of course the case the properties of the case it has to be solid in hard material like hard plastic with soft rubber for falling and and it feels good in your hand Mm the buttons has to be solid too and the material is soft rubber I have got a email from the possibilities of Real Reaction they are telling me that when we build a remote control of of plastic or rubber the buttons have to be rubber too Mm It is I when we use a rubbled a doubled curved case we must use a rubber pushbuttons to the the rubber doublecurved case is a is a t threedimensional curve in the in the design which is necessary when we want to be trendy the energy source I have got a lot of possibilities for that too the basic battery which I thi prefer because of its its non nondepending of of of here you have to have a hand kinetic energy Also in this one like in the watches but a remote control can lie on a table for a day and then you push a button and so you do not have to walk with it all the all the time Mm solar cells are also a bit weird for remote controls also the case material I think that plastic is the is the best with rubber because wood or titanium would also be a bit weird User Interface: Oh titanium is probably trendy I think Marketing: That is true I guess User Interface: Well maybe a little bit expensive Industrial Designer: they do not tell anything about the cost of titanium the chip the chip set and the board is all off the shelf Also the speaker in the remote control when we want to retrieve it the base station is also off the shelf all the materials and the components are just available in in our factory Mm I have told about the three first points Mm the simple electronical chip is is available with the LED transmitter transmitter it is all off the shelf and even the speaker and the wireless retriever are all available in our company another possibility I I looked up on was the LCD displays Could be something special to our remote control and it is possible but it only cost a bit more but maybe it can be within the limits of twenty five Euros Project Manager: Twelve and a half Actually Industrial Designer: I th I got an email with some examples and it these were were the most trendiest one You see a covers which can be Project Manager: What are those t tooth brushes or so But it is actually kind of well it resembles the design I had in mind for this proj You know the the cartoonish Alessi kind of design Industrial Designer: Yes maybe we can bri bring a couple of couple of types of Project Manager: And we can we can steal their ideas Industrial Designer: maybe a kind of whole a whole set of different remote controls Maybe we can bring a whole line with with a huge variety of Project Manager: Well it is a possibility too Industrial Designer: Like maybe radios and television also in this in this in the same style but Marketing: that will be for the future I guess Project Manager: Next time we are here Industrial Designer: Yes because we have to we have to we have to bring the logo and all the stuff back into it","Industrial Designer made a presentation about the personal preference for components design. The remote should have a solid case in plastic and soft rubber and the rubber push-buttons. As for the energy source, the basic battery was better because it was more convenient for remote control users. As for the chip, the simple electronic chip should be available with an LED transmitter. Next, the group came to discuss the possibility of LCDs that had been noted." "User Interface: So it is just an idea And I thinked of the button sizes and I am not sure if they have to be big or just small Industrial Designer: But you are the expert Marketing: I think it depends on the function User Interface: Well I am not a e I am the expert for userfriendly but not for trendiness Marketing: Well if you save Perhaps s tiny buttons are not userfriendly then we would not i am implement that of course User Interface: I have nothing to s Project Manager: Well w when we only use basic functions we have the possibility to make the buttons larger User Interface: with a little bit larger I thought so but maybe with the Project Manager: Well I think we already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons th th those two have they have to be large I mean th th the the two two basic buttons you know the to skip channels and to I think I do not know why but I think that is that is t trendy too User Interface: Most the most used buttons Marketing: Those are probably the the th Project Manager: because that is the mo it it you know it is acc acc accentu how do you say it ? It puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big like t Marketing: Those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control Project Manager: And you want to acc accentuate that you know Industrial Designer: It is from your research User Interface: personal preference I did not have I did not had any time left Project Manager: No that is coo it is cool","Project Manager thought the skip buttons and the volume buttons, the two most basic functions, should be designed larger. In this way, the simplicity of the remote could also be accentuated." "Marketing: Oh great Well I have done some research again about trends on the internet I have done some investigation and well I got some information from fashion watchers from Paris and Milan Some some findings the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control well we were going to imply that so that is nice The second important thing is innovative technology in the RC our market really likes really likes that And the third point there in this order if of importance the third point is a high ease of use And well for the idea I have put some trends for the market of elderly people Dark colours simple recognisable shapes So we probably will not do that The younger market likes Well the themes of of this year are surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material I found this image which is Well it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables I do not see the spongy part in it But with a little bit of fancy Project Manager: Well maybe c then we have to do something with Sponge Bob then Marketing: Exactly I got some ideas well pictures is not really good word but some symbols of fruits or vegetables maybe catchy colours Fruit is yellow green red whatever So remote controls in in catchy colours Project Manager: It does not stroke with the with the dark colours Marketing: no we do not want dark colours Project Manager: Not the dark colours ? Marketing: No I just put them there to for general idea I think the spongy material is is very irritating for the remote control itself But to the To implement some spongy thing maybe we can do it in the in the docking station At the bottom of the docking station or whatever And we could bring one line with a dark colour to p v how do you say ? also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour I mean it it it reaches a different market but it it it does not cost really much effort to b to bring like a black RC on the market or whatever Yes User Interface: But how do we use fruits and vegetables in Christs sake with remote control ? Project Manager: No but I I I think that our design already resembles so a piece of fruit Marketing: there is there is always a User Interface: make it a banana ? Project Manager: It is like a pear or something Marketing: Well there there is always empty space of course on a remote control I mean I think this part of the RC well the upper the upper part or whatever is is not not used with buttons I guess Project Manager: No I do not think you have to do it like Marketing: So you you can put some fruity things Project Manager: but it that does not have to remind you you know like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit but just you know like the the the the round curves And so y I I think this y it already sem resembles something like a pear to me or something Marketing: If we make it little bit greenish Project Manager: You do get the idea eh ? The fruity kind of round Marketing: A and we could use one of these for the w what is it ? User Interface: But d do not we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ? Project Manager: we have a very big the s Marketing: Well w we can w we can we can produce multiple multiple things Industrial Designer: For a big team of artists Marketing: This is then the pear I do not know the English word so forget it Project Manager: but It is pear I guess Marketing: And maybe a b a banana is is n not easy for a remote control but m Industrial Designer: But but I think we do not have to make we can not make all ten designs We have to make one design I th I I think Project Manager: No but I think it is it is already what we were were up to Marketing: Mayb maybe two or three Project Manager: it is it does not have to resemble what I already said a specific piece of fruit but just you know like a fruity thing going on And it is it looks fruity to me Marketing: B but that is great and and and what I was Project Manager: And but I do like the Marketing: what what I was saying the catchy colours Project Manager: I do like the f to the idea of making a a y a catchy colour design and a d because I do I think a dark colour would be nice too Industrial Designer: But pictures of fruit vegetables vegetables Project Manager: Maybe it is too much you know User Interface: But we we have to There have to be the the the the firm colours our own colours has to be in it Marketing: not really Pictures was a was a bad word but Project Manager: but what are the This is yellow Industrial Designer: Yes you can put a logo on top of it Project Manager: But I do not think our our company colours are this fashionable Marketing: Maybe we can if if we got our docking station over here Industrial Designer: Yes it is really fruity Marketing: I can not draw with this thing but I will try If this is our docking station we can make our logo over here It does not work And then Industrial Designer: With a strawberry on top Project Manager: on n on the bottom of the remote you can do Marketing: Well the button button over here or whatever I do not know On the front of course because else you can not find it Well that were my ideas a little bit I will close them down go away","Marketing indicated the three most important findings: fancy look-and-feel, innovative technology, and high ease of use. As the fruits and vegetable theme and sponge material remained trendy that year, the group turned to discuss how to combine the fancy themes with the design and find a proper balance between the elder market and the young market, the specific topics including the color design, the possibility of related symbol and pictures, and the location of business logo." "Industrial Designer: Maybe maybe we can make a TV guide on it for the channel you are on Marketing: but it should be li like this big and I do not think Industrial Designer: No no only the TV channel with the with with four programmes Project Manager: I do not think we should do it Industrial Designer: You can zap through them with the page up page down button Marketing: Yes sure but it it has to to show an entire title of a programme or at least a q a quite quite large part of it and then you get a very large LCD screen because Industrial Designer: Yes it can On your No on your mobile phone you can y you can read text also So why not on your remote ? Project Manager: but no I do I think it is a bit redundant actually And it is also not I do not th even think it it looks s like sexy or something User Interface: Well well what would you display on it then ? Industrial Designer: programme information or or or or g or a guide User Interface: But is it is not that a already on TV a lot of new TVs ? Industrial Designer: on t on teletext yes Also on the internet Marketing: Well a lot a lot of TVs indeed show when you zap to a Project Manager: But you are already watching the TV you are not going to watch your remote control Industrial Designer: Yes but you also want to know what is next Marketing: But then we also w need to bring out a line of TVs which we were planning to User Interface: and we also have to Marketing: but whatever Because the TV has to send information back to the RC and I do not know if that is possible Industrial Designer: Yes that is really possible Marketing: Yes yes o of course it is possible but you got to implement it in the TVs and I do not think everyone is going to buy a Real Reaction TV within a month after the release of our remote control Project Manager: I really understand you want to make your job more exciting by putting an LCD in it but I I really do not think it is a good n goo because it also does not stroke with we wanted c When we talk about the materials it is a good idea to use these plastic materials with soft rubber stuff on it It was our idea you know to give it a more sturdy look and that you ca like you can throw with it But I do not think a LCD display fits in that image You know it is like more vulnerable and it adds nothing really you know Marketing: That is true that is true it breaks f it it it is not very solid it is frag fragile Project Manager: You could make it but it is just it it does not I do not think it it is coherent with the design we are after Marketing: No No I do not think so ei either Project Manager: But that is my opinion Well you you y we can vote for it You want the LCD display I do not want to and he does not so it is up to him And I have read somewhere that I have got some kind of veto veto rights So I can also say But did we skip the you could do m but what what i so what i but do you think we should User Interface: I do not know I i if it is it is a simple p Project Manager: We are not even sure what what information we want to display on it So User Interface: No that that is right and I also have to think about new functions maybe buttons or something like that to control it Kind of LCD or something or Industrial Designer: Y yes you can use buttons w that are already on the remote control for double functions User Interface: But how does it display then ? W when I go to the second channel what what does it show me ? Industrial Designer: then you push a button The title and the information about the programme But but what he said was right about the televisions they have to be customised to the Project Manager: Nah that is not going to work Industrial Designer: But maybe in future it will be a giant hit and when you are the first Project Manager: Oh well I have seen it done before Do you know th like the the bigger rem universal remotes they have d LCD displays but then it is very functional to indicate which what device you are controlling So it is that that is what I have seen Industrial Designer: Yes you can put a little LCD display on it with with lots of information Marketing: that is true if you Project Manager: But it just it j it does not does not match with the our whole basic concept Industrial Designer: But I have not thought about it But whe but when you put a a a transparent plastic screen on top of it it i it is not vulnerable Project Manager: Well That is maybe not the most important Industrial Designer: You can throw with it and Project Manager: I do not think so Industrial Designer: When when you put maybe a colour LCD t screen on it it is very special and very trendy to have a remote control from User Interface: I do not know That is not up to you That is up to market if i if it is trendy Project Manager: well do you ha do you have to You have not looked after the trendiness of LCD displays have you ? User Interface: Because our our motto is we put fashion Marketing: Well I think it is I think it is pretty trendy to be honest but I do not know if if if well I am coming back to the costs again but I think we got to build a b pretty cheap design to to stay within our limits And I think especially colour LCD which is indeed pretty trendy But I do not think I think it will be too expensive Industrial Designer: But I have got a the email with with the possibilities And LCD was a possibility for the remote control So why do not we use it Project Manager: but we are going to if it Marketing: did it say a price also for for monogramme LCD or coloured LCD ? User Interface: if you want to be trendy you have to be coloured Coloured If you have black and white or something or grey that is Marketing: if y if you c i Project Manager: Then then you better do not d Marketing: I in in two thousand and four you can not put something on the market which is a monogramme Industrial Designer: No but it does not sa say anything about a colour or But mm I alf I also got a possibility to put a scroll button on it But Project Manager: I really do not feel the whole idea of an LCD display Industrial Designer: I did not think that Project Manager: I am sorry It can not co you can not convince me I do not know how well how to with you guys but I do not really feel it We already we are User Interface: It is too much maybe with with the LCD and the docking station and Project Manager: we already have the the th th th base station gadgets and want and it do it has to be a simple design which sturdy which soft Industrial Designer: Yes but o on the Marketing: W we have we have got to find a balance of course User Interface: Not a whole package of specialty Project Manager: I do not think I j and really I do not see how the the LCD display is going to add anything you know on a design level I think it is slicker to have no L CEDs Y we want to it is simplicity w you have two big buttons and you can do whatever you want with these two buttons so you do not need an LCD Industrial Designer: But it look Yes but that remote controls are already on the market The simple Project Manager: It does not fit in our philosophy behind the whole remote Industrial Designer: Yes but but when you want to have something special Project Manager: but we already have the docking station which is Industrial Designer: Yes but you had a picture of it from another company Project Manager: It has to be developed but no but it that is that is our that is our killer feature User Interface: It is just an it is just an idea Project Manager: That is our what makes it special User Interface: It is a it is Industrial Designer: Yes it was already made Tha the remote control on the docking station Project Manager: we are going to develop our own r n docking station Marketing: Is that so ? Was it it was not just a prototype ? Industrial Designer: Yes he have a picture of it Marketing: Exactly I have never seen it in a store Project Manager: but re we really have to cut this off I re I know you I I I I I get the idea you really like it you know the the LCD thing but I I think it is it is not a good idea and we have already mentioned all the arguments I do not do you guys agre How do you guys think ? I d User Interface: No it is too much Marketing: I think it is a little too much Project Manager: we s skip the LCD display I am sorry maybe you can do something if we are at your own place or make it make it make it happen in your basement or something Industrial Designer: I will rule the world with it","Industrial Designer wanted an LCD that could be applied to show program information, which was also trendy if colored. However, this idea was disagreed by other group members for the following reasons. First, a big LCD screen was too expensive. Second, most users read the information on TV and the Internet instead of the remote. Next, LCD had a vulnerable feature and was also too functional to match the basic design concept. Moreover, for User Interface suggested that the design required only one specialty, LCD was not that necessary when the group had already decided on the docking station." "Project Manager: The materials you mentioned in your your personal preferences were all were quite O o only only the last point your User Interface: And tita titanium is is is it a no ? Project Manager: no titaniums not not out of question I guess","Project Manager thought titanium was considerable and mentioned several possibilities, such as the complete titanium design that was trendy. User Interface disagreed, pointing out that titanium was used even more than plastic. Other shortages considered included making users' hands a bit sweaty and becoming quite cold in winter." "Project Manager: But we have to think of some other important things oh the the functionalities of the the buttons User Interface: The funct I was I was thinking about th the st do we still want a joystick idea Marketing: No I think that is too vulnerable Project Manager: the so we have the basic Then we have the numbers We have the power button We have we have a teletext button And maybe want to access a a menu or something Most TVs have a menu Marketing: but that is that is I was thinking that is got to be on the television Project Manager: but I think you ha I really need a menu button That is just i the only button only User Interface: but wha what kind of menu ? Is is not that different from every television ? Project Manager: No I think most TVs have an a menu nowadays to access the screen settings And so Marketing: Mm if it is c if I think it is to to add a menu button for Project Manager: But that that covers all the all the other settings It covers everything then Marketing: and if the TV does not have a menu then Industrial Designer: But then you have to put up and down and left and right Project Manager: No you can use the Marketing: you can put that on the two eight four and six or whatever Project Manager: And you al can also use the normal skip buttons for that Th in that way we have like only the numbers the power button skip and volume and then ten rem Marketing: Mm A mute and a teletext and a menu Project Manager: mute A teletext and a menu and then then i that is it It is all we need","The group decided to have only the basic function buttons, including numbers button, power button, skip button, volume button, mute button, teletext button, and menu button." "Project Manager: I think the first thing we do is introduce ourselves and everybodys name and what your function is ? Marketing: that is a good plan Project Manager: So maybe we start with you ? User Interface: my name is Francina And I am an user interface my role is the main responsibility is user interface And my role is to design a television remote control Marketing: And I am a marketing person I want to figure out how to sell them Project Manager: Mmhmm And your name is ? Industrial Designer: I am JeanneOui my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are deal with the technicalfunctional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design Project Manager: Very good And as you already know I am Betty I am the project manager for today So why do not we look at the presentation to see what we really are supposed to do",The role of User Interface is to design a television remote control. Marketing is in charge of figuring out how to sell them. The responsibilities of Industrial Designer are dealing with technical and functional designs and specifications of User Interface. "Project Manager: we get ins each of us will get instructions and we will take it from there Project plan that falls under the same heading pretty much I do not think we have any great discussion at this point Here is what this thing should be This thing we are going to design is a new remote control should be original trendy and of course user friendly So maybe you want to make some notes of that All right Here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve That is it is going to be individual work and then at the meeting we will discuss what we have come up with The same goes for the conceptual design there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards Detailed design same thing basically Marketing: Mm kay so Three different types of design that we are going to be concerned with","The project goal was to design an original, trendy and user-friendly remote control for the international market. The project will be divided into three parts - functional, conceptual and detailed design. The selling price and the production cost of the remote should be twenty five Euros and less than twelve fifty euros respectively. The profit aim for the company is fifty million Euros." "User Interface: Yes I I feel that all the remote should be very compact those which we get here nowadays it is very long And and it should have multipurpose Like the remote control which we use for TV it shou it should be used f for some other purpose also like controlling the temperature inside the house or for airconditioners or for heating system Project Manager: So it should be a multifunctional gadget that would control all your household machines basically Marketing: At twelve fifty Euros per Well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that",User Interface suggested that the remote should be compact and able to be used for other purposes such as controlling air-conditioners or heating systems. Industrial Designer agreed and added audio players should also be controlled as well. "Project Manager: And now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you did not like with it things you would like to change things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller bigger have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly better marked buttons you know things like that ? User Interface: Yes I I feel that all the remote should be very compact those which we get here nowadays it is very long","The remote should be compact with a friendly shape, like the kidney shape Project Manager proposed. It should also be made with different material and colour so as to be more trendy." "Marketing: I think another thing that would help is if it beeps when you clap because I think one of the big things that happens is people lose them They can not find it Project Manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or we you know whatever And and they suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the TV off and they say where the hell is my my remote control ? Well or or if it is really if it is really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal Industrial Designer: some beep or something like that Marketing: so so it is really the beep or or a light should blink Industrial Designer: so that we can go Project Manager: So if lost If lost signal with b throw signal you know Industrial Designer: maybe it should have a light so that we can we can just recognise where it is Project Manager: Exactly I mean just that is what I am saying I am just saying throw signal meaning just whether it is a beep or whether a light or Industrial Designer: Beep or it is a light maybe it is a light Marketing: And do you think a good c c clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ? Project Manager: my my idea is maybe that the minute it is really hidden in in other words if it is like in a dark spot meaning you know like a newspaper is on top a sweater is on top or it it is behind a plant at that moment it is it is like it is like what you call it a light s sensors you know ? In in that moment it has a sensor i it it gets a certain darkness it ge has a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep I mean that we can discuss that later you know Industrial Designer: probably probably it is a Marketing: So the light sensor would activate the signal Project Manager: That is right You know there would be right you have to have some kind of sensor and I I think voice or clapping it is not specific enough I know there are the lamps and stuff you know you can clap on and off but I think they only work to certain degree and Marketing: But it could be someplace really obvious and you still would not be able to find it Industrial Designer: of course that did not Marketing: Well because you are s because you are silly Because people are silly Industrial Designer: I i we can not do it Project Manager: Oh well but then those people we can not help everybody Marketing: I mean it could be on well i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee table you know well maybe we have to move along","Marketing suggested that the remote can beep or a light in the remote can blink when people clap. Project Manager added that it can also give off a signal, activated by light sensors, when it is in a dark spot. However, Project Manager later raised up the point that voice or clapping was not specific enough and other devices like lamps with the same function only worked to a certain degree." "User Interface: Yes I I feel that all the remote should be very compact those which we get here nowadays it is very long And and it should have multipurpose Like the remote control which we use for TV it shou it should be used f for some other purpose also like controlling the temperature inside the house or for airconditioners or for heating system Project Manager: So it should be a multifunctional gadget that would control all your household machines basically Marketing: At twelve fifty Euros per Well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that We certainly can try to I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things Project Manager: It should be something new it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have","It should be a multi-functional gadget that would control all household machines, such as air conditioners and audio players so that it would be different from other kinds of remotes. Also, the remote can either blink or beep as a response to a clap or when it is in a dark spot to help the user to locate it." "Marketing: you know well maybe we have to move along Project Manager: we have to move along but I think we have some good good points to start with here the next meeting will be in thirty minutes I think you all did you get notices on your computer for this ? so well you got the notice The working design I guess that is the function ID who is this ? The industrial designer That is you Industrial Designer: it is functional de exactly technical Project Manager: So we looking for a working design when we come back Industrial Designer: working design it is it is mainly technicalfunctional design Project Manager: Then And then the technical funct you are the technical function so so you are the working design So you have a working design and then a functional design And the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification like friendliness and what we just discussed in general That would be your idea And of course price That it that it that the price is a good price I mean the price is given but that was Marketing: Mmhmm We have to justify that price by having sufficient features to make it sell at that price Project Manager: That is right That is right And you know specifi you you will get specific instructions for that I think that is the end of the show So we have well we have a twen two two two three minutes any questions at this point ? Or suggestions ?","In the next meeting, Industrial Manager will be responsible for the functional and working design of the remote. Marketing will be in charge of the user requirement specification such as friendliness and come up with features that justify the price of the remote." "User Interface: Well s function of remote control is just just you know change channels is its main function Project Manager: So we want it to be a TV remote or I I mean do we want it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ? User Interface: Oh right I suppose you c try make it a universal remote for could work on all sort of electrical products in in one persons house But you know they all sorta have the same role changing channels volumes and then programming I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like I do not actually know But is it just infrared ? Is that standard ? Project Manager: I I think r universal remote this is my first goround with creating a remote control I think we are all in the same boat here User Interface: one thing I thought of with the remote control is you always lose them So if there is a g a way of finding it quite easily I thought that would be quite good quite a good feature Project Manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a Marketing: Like a tracking device ? Project Manager: like a tracking device or or like a a User Interface: Oh you can get those key well you could whistle or make a noise Project Manager: there is a button on the TV that you press User Interface: Generally all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance Project Manager: so they are kind of like long and rectangular Do we want something crazy ? You know we want something new that is going to stand out A m a modern so our remote should be User Interface: I think so Maybe sorta spherical or something A ball Marketing: Maybe like userfriendly like a little you know where you can use both hands like a little keyboard type thing User Interface: I thought maybe because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another if it was in a ball and maybe the actual controls are inside or something Industrial Designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions you can not have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time so there are always the some restrictions we have to apply here however one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be that refers to the material pretty much What are we going to build that thing out of ? How sturdy is it going to be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever have to buy one every half a year ? Project Manager: so so we want it to be sturdy we want it to to hold up to somebody is child you know throwing it across the room or as you said people kind of throw it so ballshaped you know if it were ballshaped maybe User Interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside Project Manager: Kay so we want it to be modern fun sturdy So our form and our function we want it to be easy to find What else it what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal It is something that we are supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros and you know goals for profits are I think somewhere around fifty million Euros what they want to make on it so","User Interface thought that changing channels is the basic function of the remote control, but can also be turned into a universal remote control. Based on the reality that the remote control is often lost in our life, he thought that they should add anti loss design into it. Marketing further proposed that tracking devices can be used, and Industrial Designer agreed that some beeps or vibrations can be added. Project Manager thought they needed to design a trendy, interesting and sturdy remote control." "User Interface: I think so Maybe sorta spherical or something A ball Marketing: Maybe like userfriendly like a little you know where you can use both hands like a little keyboard type thing","User Interface proposed that they can design a fashionable and modern spherical remote controller, reduce buttons to make it simple, and connect several parts of the remote control with hinges. Marketing put forward the keyboard shape remote control, using the handle to make it more user-friendly. Project Manager further proposed the idea of a joystick keyboard." "User Interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere where maybe you this is where it is connected together and then when you open it out it could fol it could be maybe flip like a flip phone and then when you fold it out the middle Maybe a hinge that will have to be the strongest part of it If that if we did use a hinge or if it was just two parts and then you would have just sorta you you you know your buttons Thing is inside I think sometimes remotes have too many buttons so maybe as simple as possible as few buttons inside as possible I do not know what is the idea for Just something maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it It is looking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though to be fair That was that was a sorta simple idea I had and then you know you could about Right it would almost be like a ball So that was just just an idea I had I do not know whether anybody else has other ideas ? Industrial Designer: Right One problem you would get with this design is the ball is a nice idea because of it is stability really but of course since it is a ball it will roll so we would have to have it flat on one side at least down here somewhere take away that part That is one of the big issues Also also you risk the hinges here That is that is a problem User Interface: that is g that is a good idea The idea it did not have to necessarily be f a hinge Industrial Designer: That is that is interesting of course User Interface: that was just one idea though Industrial Designer: but that is of course a weak point Project Manager: How would we go about making you know getting rid of our weak points ? What I mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? Not to put you on the spot What did you say your title was again ? You are the the Industrial Designer Industrial Designer: I am your Industrial Designer the point is that well maybe I do not know The shape is perhaps not the most ideal As as stable as it is there must be a compromise between stability and design here so User Interface: Well I I suppose that things become design But I mean i I was trying to think of like the design of others I can not think of anything other than a long rectangle for remote maybe small sort of fatter ones but there is nothing being done sort of out of left field Project Manager: It is not new it is not innovative it is you know everybody does long remote because it is easy it is it is stable Marketing: Kay I will draw something My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape you know like video games l so But maybe I mean that would be kind of big and bulky We could also try to do the hinge thing so it could like flip out that way I do not know That is my idea User Interface: I think definitely doing something different I mean maybe design something that is sort of like suppose not everybodys everybodys hands the same but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier Project Manager: Because even I suppose even with the ball User Interface: It still might be hard to it still not the ho easiest thing to hold Project Manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto So perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better But then again people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda so maybe maybe we User Interface: It is d I think it is definitely got to be a a onehanded a onehanded job Project Manager: I feel like I am just shooting everything down here Marketing: You are the boss you are allowed to Industrial Designer: Well with the onehanded design you also have the the problem of the size w because you know from cell phones they can be too small So if the remote is too small it if it is small it probably looks better but may not be th as functional So for that there is Project Manager: unfortunately we have got about five minutes here to come up with our remote control idea and start rolling with it we have talked about our experiences with remote control and we have got a couple ideas Let us see here What if we had what if we had not only say we went with the ball the ball function but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s to make it easier to hold on to So you know s so it is easier to hold onto that way Course that will then remove some of our our ball Unless this unless this part were raised so say the cover flips over and covers that part So the grip is No that would not work either But if we are going to make it flat on the bottom then that eliminates our ball anyways So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess and then flat And then we have the problem with the hinge So if we are flat on the bottom it is not going to roll away it will stay where we want Industrial Designer: The question is also I do not know d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? It is probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway so I do not know if a lid is a good idea From stabil stability point of view it certainly is but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident the more we sell So it is do not make it too stable Project Manager: So we do not have it flip open We just have a ball User Interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then Project Manager: so then we forget the ball It looks cool but it is really not it is not functional So we have got our sort of keyboard kind What if we flipped it around here so that it were Sorry that does not look anything like what you had there so it is up and down you hold it this way Course then it is it is like the rectangular again only with a couple of jutting out points Industrial Designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that is pretty much the form for full hand So it is a round shape underneath that makes it comfy makes it nice so that is the essential part Except for that I think we will not probably not get a get away from some longer design Because you also have to know which way around to point this thing Project Manager: because it does not have a cord like joysticks do Industrial Designer: that dif batteries right and Batteries go weak as well so after a while you have to point it towards the towards the equipment you want to control with it right ? So have to m show which is the front which is the back Project Manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you are pointing it it would work","In the design of the sphere remote control, User Interface used a hinge to connect the middle part, and a light sensor was used to avoid too many buttons. Project Manager proposed that the handle could make it more stable, but lost the features of the sphere; in the design of the joystick keyboard, Marketing also wanted to use hinges to make the keyboard remote control more portable. Industrial Designer proposed to add a round shape under the keyboard remote control to make the remote control more user-friendly. Project Designer proposed to add sensors on both sides for users to use more conveniently." "Industrial Designer: but of course since it is a ball it will roll so we would have to have it flat on one side at least down here somewhere take away that part That is one of the big issues Also also you risk the hinges here That is that is a problem User Interface: that is g that is a good idea The idea it did not have to necessarily be f a hinge Industrial Designer: That is that is interesting of course User Interface: that was just one idea though Industrial Designer: but that is of course a weak point Project Manager: How would we go about making you know getting rid of our weak points ? What I mean would we just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ? Not to put you on the spot What did you say your title was again ? You are the the Industrial Designer Industrial Designer: I am your Industrial Designer the point is that well maybe I do not know The shape is perhaps not the most ideal As as stable as it is there must be a compromise between stability and design here so","Industrial Designer thought that the spherical remote control is easy to be thrown back and forth, which would reduce its service life and lack stability. There should be a compromise between the sense of design and stability." "Project Manager: So perhaps the the joystick the the keyboard idea might work better But then again people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda so maybe maybe we User Interface: It is d I think it is definitely got to be a a onehanded a onehanded job Project Manager: I feel like I am just shooting everything down here Marketing: You are the boss you are allowed to Industrial Designer: Well with the onehanded design you also have the the problem of the size w because you know from cell phones they can be too small So if the remote is too small it if it is small it probably looks better but may not be th as functional So for that there is Project Manager: unfortunately we have got about five minutes here to come up with our remote control idea and start rolling with it we have talked about our experiences with remote control and we have got a couple ideas Let us see here What if we had what if we had not only say we went with the ball the ball function but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s to make it easier to hold on to So you know s so it is easier to hold onto that way Course that will then remove some of our our ball Unless this unless this part were raised so say the cover flips over and covers that part So the grip is No that would not work either But if we are going to make it flat on the bottom then that eliminates our ball anyways So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here I guess and then flat And then we have the problem with the hinge So if we are flat on the bottom it is not going to roll away it will stay where we want Industrial Designer: The question is also I do not know d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ? It is probably going to lie around opened all the time anyway so I do not know if a lid is a good idea From stabil stability point of view it certainly is but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident the more we sell So it is do not make it too stable Project Manager: So we do not have it flip open We just have a ball User Interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s something along those things then Project Manager: so then we forget the ball It looks cool but it is really not it is not functional So we have got our sort of keyboard kind What if we flipped it around here so that it were Sorry that does not look anything like what you had there so it is up and down you hold it this way Course then it is it is like the rectangular again only with a couple of jutting out points Industrial Designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that is pretty much the form for full hand So it is a round shape underneath that makes it comfy makes it nice so that is the essential part Except for that I think we will not probably not get a get away from some longer design Because you also have to know which way around to point this thing Project Manager: because it does not have a cord like joysticks do Industrial Designer: that dif batteries right and Batteries go weak as well so after a while you have to point it towards the towards the equipment you want to control with it right ? So have to m show which is the front which is the back Project Manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensor on either side ? So that either way you are pointing it it would work Industrial Designer: I suppose you could do that O of course the more technology you stick in that the more it will cost so Course you can do that I mean of course it will be evident after a while or if you look at it it will it will be evident which way around to point it since you have the the numbers and the and the the buttons and stuff","The team agreed that the joystick handle must be easy to operate by one hand, with some ups and downs behind it, so as to be more user-friendly. The remote control needs to be longer to indicate the direction of the remote control. For convenience, the project manager proposed to install sensors at both ends, but the industrial designer thought that the more technology investment, the higher the cost. The numbers and buttons on the remote control can clearly indicate its direction. In addition, he proposed that it should not be too small, or it might be hard to design functions." "Project Manager: Kay so we want it to be modern fun sturdy So our form and our function we want it to be easy to find What else it what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal It is something that we are supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros and you know goals for profits are I think somewhere around fifty million Euros what they want to make on it so Marketing: Mm Also since we are partners of the International Remote Control Association maybe we want to make it something that would globally appeal That is more on the research end but the marketing Project Manager: So marketing you know how maybe marketing you could s find out what is the most universally appealing remote control out there Marketing: And maybe as far as design goes maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences because maybe one will not apply to all of the countries we are targeting","Project Manager proposed to price each remote control at 25 Euros. The profit aim for the team would be 50 million Euros in the first year. The market range would be international and over all age groups. The most popular and attractive remote control can be found by Marketing. Or, in terms of design, provide different designs for different target audiences in different countries." "Project Manager: So today is our third meeting It will be about the conceptual design If I come back to the minutes of the last meetings We decided not to go for speech recognition technologies because of some reasons and we are not decided about you the use of LCD screen on on the remote control because of costs So maybe we cou wi will be able to clarify this this question to today at the end of the meeting we should take decision on that point So I hope that your respective pr presentations will help us So each of you have some presentatio presentation to perform who starts ? So you are you saved your y your presentation somewhere ? So you are four ? Which is trend watch Mr Marketing Experts Marketing: Well I investigate the preference more d I investigate deeper the preference of the users so the the current investigation th th sorry the current the n current trends ? ? Well wha what I found can you Thank you What I found in order of importance from less to more important is that people want an easy to use device After they they want something new technologic technologically speaking but the most what they what they find more more interesting more or more important it is a fancy look and feel instead of instead of the current the current trend which was f the functional look and feel So now more more cool aspect ma more a cooler aspect rather than a device with many functions and many buttons with instead of i instead of ha of a device which can do many things a device which is pleasant to to watch to see also Well in in Euro in in Paris and and Milan the in Paris and in Paris and Milan the the current trend of of clothes furniture and all this all this fashion it is it is fruit and the the the theme is fruit and vegetables And also in the in the USA the the current the mor the most popular feeling it is it is a spongy Spongy means eponge ? So maybe we should we should think in in this direction so User Interface: What what do you mean by fruit and vegetables and spongy ? Industrial Designer: Spongy means it it is like sp Marketing: Fruit vegetables is the the new have you seen the last exposition of clothes in Milan ? User Interface: No I missed that one Marketing: I I did not miss an I did not miss and I saw that the fruit there are many fr pictures of fruits and vegetables in the clothes User Interface: Oh they are so they are not like dressed as a carrot they just have like pictures of fruit on Marketing: No no not not yet not yet User Interface: So we are not going to have a remote control in the shape of of a banana Marketing: Vegetable textures and all this kind Industrial Designer: But what is your suggestion how we can have some shape like that on the remote ? Project Manager: Well so this is in the next slide certainly Marketing: no no it is not User Interface: So which fruit are you thinking of ? Marketing: I ha I have not thought of any particular fruit but the general aspect of the of the remote control may may could remind some kind of vegetable some kind of instead of vegetable some natur mm natural object or something But it it depends on the Project Manager: So maybe you maybe you can display a banana on the LCD User Interface: Oh so you want the remote control to be the shape of a fruit or you want just some kind of like fruit logo on the Industrial Designer: Means buttons are in the shape of fruits Marketing: maybe the shape the shape Industrial Designer: buttons are in the frape shape of fruits or something apple banana something like that Marketing: No not n not not too much focus not too much focu not n not too s not too similar to a fruit because next year the ten the trend the trend will be different So we should not be at re really attached to to the trend User Interface: So something that looks half like a fruit and half like an elephant Marketing: but For instance African or as an elephant ? Industrial Designer: That we can discuss afterwards User Interface: I am not I am not really sure if that would really appeal to everyone though maybe just to fashion gurus like maybe just like a little bit n a little fruit picture somewhere in the corner but I do not know about I do not know how ergonomic a an orange is Marketing: Well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing I think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices and also according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control User Interface: But is it is fruit cool ? Marketing: ? Is the new trend of the User Interface: Well I guess you know Apple has the iPod so imagi just because they have an apple on their on their product does not mean fruit is cool Marketing: No I think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some User Interface: but it has to be easy to to use though and to hold you know you do not want to pear or a watermelon Marketing: Don do not you think we can find the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? User Interface: Well probably the only thing is a banana that I can think of So but I mean you also have to you have to also have fit r all the buttons and you know The thing is you have t normally with with buttons they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you are going to have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build Industrial Designer: I do not th it will be rolling a lot Marketing: but I li I like your idea that we should not have a lot of buttons b buttons so Project Manager: and you you you will not have pla enough a lot of place to put a LCD on a banana also Marketing: do you want a an LCD with twenty five Euros ? Project Manager: Well you are the Marketing Expert you should tell us if it is too much or not Marketing: I think Well according to the to the report people are more interested in in a fa fancy look and feel and in a technological inno in innovation so I will give more importance to the look and feel than rather than the Project Manager: So So you you you suggest to go f Marketing: new inputs and also it is I am not convinced about this LCD because you need internet connection you need more things it is not just buying a new control re remote you need buying control remote buying Project Manager: S so you are simply Marketing: more things It is not so simple Project Manager: you are simply looking s to a remote control that looks like a banana with few buttons with only a few buttons Marketing: For instance for for for given an an example Project Manager: good So maybe you can go ahead ? Marketing: no it is what I already said","Marketing suggested the group to focus on a fancy look and feel more than the functionality of the remote design. Group mates asked if they would have a remote control in the shape of a banana. Marketing said they should not be attached to the trend because the trend next year would be different. So, Marketing suggested focusing on a young user group and designing a handy and cool remote." "Marketing: Well ma maybe we we should further specify what target are we focusing I think in my opinion we should focus on on young people because they are more open to new devi new devices and also according to the marketing report ninety p ninety five percent of young people was was was able to to buy a a n a cooler remote control User Interface: But is it is fruit cool ? Marketing: ? Is the new trend of the User Interface: Well I guess you know Apple has the iPod so imagi just because they have an apple on their on their product does not mean fruit is cool Marketing: No I think we we should think about a a shape with it a device with a shape of some User Interface: but it has to be easy to to use though and to hold you know you do not want to pear or a watermelon Marketing: Don do not you think we can find the shape of a fruit which is handy to use ? User Interface: Well probably the only thing is a banana that I can think of So but I mean you also have to you have to also have fit r all the buttons and you know The thing is you have t normally with with buttons they have to be at some point attached to a circuit board so if you are going to have things like on a cylindrical kind of device it may be difficult to kind of to build Industrial Designer: I do not th it will be rolling a lot Marketing: but I li I like your idea that we should not have a lot of buttons b buttons so","Marketing suggested that the group should focus on young people because they are more open to new devices. And Marketing mentioned that 95% of young people were able to buy a cooler remote control. User Interface asked if the fruit was cool. Marketing suggested they should think about the product in a cool shape. Nevertheless, User Interface suggested an easy-to-use shape. So the group recommended some fruit. Lastly, User Interface mentioned that they needed to have all the buttons with the device." "Project Manager: I there is something that I unclear really understanding Is this a technology that recognize keywords speech keywords ? User Interface: It is it it is no well it is it will recognize I guess keywords but you know keywords in a certain order like a phrase You train it for a certain for a certain phrase you say the the example they said that they have up and running with their prototype is well they have actually integrated into the into the the coffee machine that that we are producing is you can say good morning to the coffee machine and it can recognize that phrase and it will playback good morning how would you like your coffee ? Project Manager: And it is just to it is just to playback something ? User Interface: So actually that was a bad example because it does not actually ask how do you want your coffee because it can not really understand the response so Project Manager: So this is not s really to do to to do control User Interface: Only like only in the sense that it it can recognize a set a set target kind of word an Project Manager: This is just more like a poi pois User Interface: It is designed it is designed as a fun kind of thing but I guess you could use it as as a way to implement Project Manager: So it it is c it it it is a easy a fancy thing that you you can bring to we can bring to the remote control that will not have any comp completely pointless for the inter for from the interaction point of v point of view User Interface: unless you know you like having conversation with your remote control",User Interface explained that the technology could recognize and train keywords in a certain order like a phrase. Project Manager asked User Interface whether it was just to playback something and was not really to do the control. User Interface supplemented that it could recognize a set target kind of word. So Project Manager thought this function is completely pointless from the interaction point of view. "User Interface: But I have just indicated here we could have actually two scroll wheels because I think the scroll wheel is a fairly key part of you know Industrial Designer: Stable thing that is right To have User Interface: I think everyone has has agreed that it is that it could be quite a useful thing so But I think it is important you know to have two scroll wheels because you know you want one for for the channel but you also want one for for the volume because it is it is the volume i it is you know it is very handy for it to have instant kind of feedback and response so But I have also included this turbo button because I think you know every design should have a turbo button and well Marketing: What is a turbo button ? User Interface: so this is you know a unique problem with with televisions is that if you have this scro this scroll wheel for the television the the tuner on the TV is not going to be able to to switch between stations as fast as you can scroll so you know the th the person might want to have a Might want to be able to scroll past television stations without seeing what is on them in which case it just waits until you stop scrolling and then you know displays that station Or they might want to scroll and and have a quick glimpse of it even if it lags behind what they are doing Marketing: It con it controls the speed ? User Interface: so with this turbo button you can say skip over t channels if you know if I am if I am going if I am scrolling past them and you know it is you could have a little red light that comes up when they press it so they feel you know it is really going fast or whatever So that is those are the two important features I think we need on the remote but I mean we can discuss about what other kind of buttons we need You know i it could be you know if we if we want to have like a very cheap kind of device I mean we could either consider that maybe we want to sell this as a very if it is going to be a banana you know that is a pretty gimmicky kind of thing that does not have that much functionality it is just you know a couple of scroll wheels and a button because it is hard to get so many buttons on a banana and it is still very it may even be for most for some people more functional than their current remote but if they have these scroll wheels so you know what other buttons do we want ? I mean we could have well I guess you need an on and off switch but you could you could o you could turn it turn it on by taking the top off the banana maybe you know it is kind of like a spy kind of flick thing",User Interface suggested including the turbo button in scroll wheels and introduced that the turbo button was like a scroll wheel to scroll the past television stations without seeing what's on them. Marketing asked about the speed whether it could be controlled. User Interface explained that users could skip over channels and know it was going fast or whatever. User Interface also suggested switch on and off buttons. Project Manager agreed to add one switch on button. "Project Manager: so mm so well done for the presentations So we need to take some de decisions about about what we are going to do So I I propose that you go to the whiteboard and we are going to report all the ideas we had we had during this these presentations just to draw some sketch about what will be the prod final product and where Superman go banana and extra func functionalities such as wheels the speaker unit well not in order not to lost the the device I do I do not remember you call it ? Industrial Designer: That is right The basis station That is right Project Manager: Basis station so so we are going for a stylish banana shape User Interface: so I guess you want to hold like the way the end of the banana you want to kind of hold as ma you maybe want to kind of hold like a gun rather than because you do not want it to point kind of towards the floor So you know so if you have like Marketing: What about what about this shape ? More or less Industrial Designer: There is less space on this to put with the buttons Project Manager: I if it i if it has really the model shape of a bana you could Marketing: but how many buttons do we need ? Project Manager: the the starting is good but it could it should have more the shape of a banana if you want to point really a at the thing If you do not want to to to do that movement which is which is difficult if you do not have to do it in fact it is better So ti time is running we have to we have to we have to to move forward So let us skip to this this this this idea We have a a basis how do you call it ? We will have a base station extra on the side User Interface: so I guess we need you know something that can fit a banana shaped object Project Manager: we have a RF for for beeping for beeping Industrial Designer: That is right we need that Project Manager: We need b RF to beep So we that means we need a button on th on the on the basis Can you go quickly please ? So we are going to add also you as you suggested the whee some wheels to control the volumes and channels and your tur turbo turbo button User Interface: which I think it is it is probably best actually on the on the underneath of the the device Project Manager: on the th maybe here And the and the wheel a a at the level of the thumb for instance User Interface: Yes so you have the thumb kind of here Project Manager: And and you have two wheels User Interface: So you need one one here and one on on the other side so you got volume an and channel Project Manager: right Good So no LCD User Interface: Oh we need a we need a power on off switch as well Industrial Designer: Remotes do not have power on off switch Project Manager: no f not for the TV for the TV so you Industrial Designer: S no that will be controlled by the those buttonsll be there already Because remote is going to have both the interfaces scroll as well as buttons They are not going to cost you much everything is inhouse and now you do not want the traditional users to be apprehensive of this User Interface: Well I do not know if the traditional user is going to buy a a banana remote in the first place you know Industrial Designer: Oh That is that is another issue which I did not think of User Interface: Y I mean you need to kind of keep it Industrial Designer: But you know our targets are very high means fifty million Euros is the profit which we want make User Interface: how many of these did we want to sell ? I can not remember Industrial Designer: Twelve point five is the profit on one User Interface: but how many units did we need to to sell ? Industrial Designer: forty th four Point point four million ? User Interface: That is a lot of fruit Project Manager: So Well No Time is running we have to close the meeting in a few minutes So the next step you can come back to your seat The next step is to go for to f is to go to to building a prototype based on this ? So next meeting you guys have to prepare the followi things You have to work on the look and feel design and you have to work on the user interface in fact you two you have to work together to model the first f first prototype Marketing Expert have to go to product evaluation Marketing: I wo what about adding the this word spotting keyword spotting recognition saying volume up volume down ? It is too difficult but people like innovation and that is really innovative and I do not know if it would cost a lot just a few five words Project Manager: It is not a possi it will not be possible to implement it for the next prototype so t it is in the next prototype so let us skip it maybe for the n if if if it it works well we will go for an orange one User Interface: That can be the t That can be like the turbo banana plus plus commando Marketing: Plus plus Maybe objective banana ? Project Manager: Thanks very much We will see n next meeting Bye User Interface: Yep We have to go design the prototype Industrial Designer: The problem is after all this meeting there is","The group decided on the final prototype features to include extra functionalities such as scroll wheels, the speaker, and the base station that could fit a banana-shaped object. The group also agreed to need an RF to beep, wheels to control the volumes and channels, turbo button, and switch-on button. Besides, the group confirmed no LCD and ASR for the remote control." "Industrial Designer: I wanted to explain the working design of the remote control It is possibly very handy if you want to design one of those well so it basically works as I r wrote down in this little summary when you press a button that is when you do pr for example when you want to turn up the volume a little connection is made the the rubber button just presses on a on a little print plate which makes a connection that gives the chips which is mounted beneath those that plastic of a rubber button senses that a connection has been made and know and knows what button you pressed becau for example the the volume up or volume down button the the chip makes a Morse code like signal which then is si signalled to several transistors which makes which sends the signal to a little let You know what a let is ? And that makes the the infrared lights signal which is sent to the television set which has a sensor in it to sense the signal of the infrared That is basically how it works the findings that I found searching up some detailed information about the remote controls are that they are very easy to produce it is pis it is possible to make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as printing a page just fibreglass plate is b is covered with some coatings and and chips and the technologys already available we do not have to find out how remote controls have to work or how that how to make some chips that are possible to to to transmit those signals I made a little animation of about how a tran our remote controller works Project Manager: it is a little bug it is in the in the smart board Industrial Designer: the subcomponent I suppose that you understand what a subcomponent is is f in this example it is the button when it is pressed down the switch is ter is is switched on so with the wire is sent to the to the chip in cooperation with the battery of course because to make a a signal possible you have to have some sort of li a d ad electronic Yes w after it is being composed by the chip the signal is transported to the infrared bulb and from there it signals a Morse codelike signal to the to the b to the bulb in in the television set S I wrote down some personal preferences about the remote control Of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held so you do not have to wind it up or something or just is it is it is very light to to make to use it I personally pref prefer that it would be p come available in the various colours and easy to use buttons But I suppose that the one of the other team members thought of that too User Interface: I have got it there too Industrial Designer: And it is possible for several designs and easy to use b sorry easy to use buttons Perhaps soft touch touch screen buttons because the rubber buttons are always they slightly they can be slightly damaged so the numbers on the buttons are not possible to read anymore And well as I said before th we can make several designs well that is my contribution to this meeting and","Industrial Designer designed remote control with handy size and made a connection with chips under the plastic of rubber button. Chip transmitted signal by Morse code which made infra-red lights signal could be sent to the TV. Industrial Designer prefered remote control with various colours so that it would be easy to use. On the other hand, Industrial Designer thought rubber buttons were easy to damage so they could make several designs." "Industrial Designer: I wanted to explain the working design of the remote control It is possibly very handy if you want to design one of those well so it basically works as I r wrote down in this little summary when you press a button that is when you do pr for example when you want to turn up the volume a little connection is made the the rubber button just presses on a on a little print plate which makes a connection that gives the chips which is mounted beneath those that plastic of a rubber button senses that a connection has been made and know and knows what button you pressed becau for example the the volume up or volume down button the the chip makes a Morse code like signal which then is si signalled to several transistors which makes which sends the signal to a little let You know what a let is ? And that makes the the infrared lights signal which is sent to the television set which has a sensor in it to sense the signal of the infrared That is basically how it works the findings that I found searching up some detailed information about the remote controls are that they are very easy to produce it is pis it is possible to make them in mass production because it is as eas it is as easy as printing a page just fibreglass plate is b is covered with some coatings and and chips and the technologys already available we do not have to find out how remote controls have to work or how that how to make some chips that are possible to to to transmit those signals I made a little animation of about how a tran our remote controller works Project Manager: it is a little bug it is in the in the smart board Industrial Designer: the subcomponent I suppose that you understand what a subcomponent is is f in this example it is the button when it is pressed down the switch is ter is is switched on so with the wire is sent to the to the chip in cooperation with the battery of course because to make a a signal possible you have to have some sort of li a d ad electronic Yes w after it is being composed by the chip the signal is transported to the infrared bulb and from there it signals a Morse codelike signal to the to the b to the bulb in in the television set S I wrote down some personal preferences about the remote control Of course it is very handy if the remote control is hand held so you do not have to wind it up or something or just is it is it is very light to to make to use it I personally pref prefer that it would be p come available in the various colours and easy to use buttons But I suppose that the one of the other team members thought of that too User Interface: I have got it there too Industrial Designer: And it is possible for several designs and easy to use b sorry easy to use buttons Perhaps soft touch touch screen buttons because the rubber buttons are always they slightly they can be slightly damaged so the numbers on the buttons are not possible to read anymore And well as I said before th we can make several designs well that is my contribution to this meeting and two of these this meeting So User Interface: Shall I go next ? Well my names and I looked at technical functions design of the remote I did this by looking at examples of other remote controls of how they they look and information from the web that I found well what I found was that th the actual use of the remote control is to send messages to television set how you d what you described just early And this can be all sorts of medsa messages turn it on turn it off change the channel adjust volume that kind of thing play video teletext but also t play CD if you use it your CD player the remote control will that one There are some examples of remote controls You can see they are very different The one has got all the functions that you could possibly need and an lot of buttons etcetera And the other is more user friendly little with big buttons And not n all the the the the stuff you can do with it but the the essential stuff is there I guess you could better y you should look at a a user centred approach because the customers have to use them and and if they do not think it is usable they will not buy it A lot of buttons they may think from I do not need s as much as that well perf personal preferences is is a simple remote with the basic functions that you can need that you could use But keep in mind the new functions of TV what we discussed earlier split screen and is that a function that you should have ? Because all the TVs will have them Or because of only a few and is not really necessary And then make it I would make so that you can could use it on more than one appliance If you have one that does with the vi the the video it could also work with with the stereo because play is play and stop stop and that sort of thing The shu c you could reuse the buttons so that you do not have to have a lot of buttons for anything And it should be a user friendly clear buttons and not too much And that is my presentation You must still have it open Marketing: Kijke Kay so We are going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control or just and the users actually The methods I I prefer is we are going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more Are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? And then though that section we are going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section Some data Younger people from sixteen to thir forty five years are more interested in fj features like LCD screens speech recognition e etcetera And we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age The elderly people from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features and we possess less than two third that is two fifth of the market share in that area Goed so Kay Findings Fifty percent of the users lose their remote often So we do not have to make it very small like like a mobile phone or something but some somewhat bi bigger than small so you do not lose it that much anymore Seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot so the buttons sh should be that small or should not be that complex because we have to search for the buttons which one are you going to use Next Important issues about the remote I think it would be better with a personal reference but Remote control has to have to have a low power usage because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour so the power usage is also one one time an hour or so with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries The volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control so those they those have to h be find very easily And have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera It has also be have to find easily when the label is gone My colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off or would be s senden So if that is k if that is the problem you also have to find it easily on the remote Buttons Like what all colleagues said have to have to be minimalized or should be covered or in LCD screen LCD screen is easy because we have the LCD screen we have the various options Put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options so the other options would be gone And you do not see the buttons So LCD screens should be easy but an LCD screen the problem with the L sc LCD screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do not use the LCD screen a lot So we have to that keep that in mind that if you are going to implement LCD screen you do not have to make it that hard to learn or to use Industrial Designer: LCD screen as in touch screen ? Marketing: The last but not least younger people are more critical about the features Because they use the remote control often more often and are more technical than the old older people And the older people spend more money and easily on a remote control So we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people but also somewhat on the elderly people And on my personal preferences I do not have any mo more time to come with that but like I said LCD screen is easily to use because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons And it should be easy to use Especially the volume buttons the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels And that is it Project Manager: well thank you all huh I do not know did everyone receive an email with the new project requirements ? User Interface: No Res I did not Project Manager: then I think it is a good thing that I made a separate slide of them so you can all read them Oh well not in this presentation Should be in there Well I can tell you them from my laptop teletext does has become outdated since the popularity of the internet",Industrial Designer expressed initial working design about remote control. User Interface suggested that remote control should be user friendly with not too much but clear buttons. Marketing showed us data about functional requirement remote control. Project Manager said that the new requirement about remote control was teletext should be paid less attention as it was outdated. Future customers' age should be focused on forty plus and new design should include corporate colour and slogan. "Marketing: Kijke Kay so We are going to j discuss the functional requirements of the remote that m that means that functions user n want to have on the remote control or just and the users actually The methods I I prefer is we are going to look which section of the users we are going to focus a l on more Are the younger people going to buy the remote control or the elderly people ? And then though that section we are going to focus and adjust the remote more to that section than the whole user section Some data Younger people from sixteen to thir forty five years are more interested in fj features like LCD screens speech recognition e etcetera And we possess about two third of the market from in that range of age The elderly people from forty five years to sixty five years are not that much interested in features and we possess less than two third that is two fifth of the market share in that area Goed so Kay Findings Fifty percent of the users lose their remote often So we do not have to make it very small like like a mobile phone or something but some somewhat bi bigger than small so you do not lose it that much anymore Seventy five percent of the users also find it ugly and fif seventy five of the users zap a lot so the buttons sh should be that small or should not be that complex because we have to search for the buttons which one are you going to use Next Important issues about the remote I think it would be better with a personal reference but Remote control has to have to have a low power usage because s w seventy five percent of the users only zap one time an hour so the power usage is also one one time an hour or so with a high power usage we would use a lot of but batteries The volume button and the channel buttons are the two most important buttons on the remote control so those they those have to h be find very easily And have to be somewhat like bigger etcetera It has also be have to find easily when the label is gone My colleague also announced it that labels should be scratched off or would be s senden So if that is k if that is the problem you also have to find it easily on the remote Buttons Like what all colleagues said have to have to be minimalized or should be covered or in LCD screen LCD screen is easy because we have the LCD screen we have the various options Put one option and then you have the all the buttons of that options so the other options would be gone And you do not see the buttons So LCD screens should be easy but an LCD screen the problem with the L sc LCD screen is that elderly people fr from forty five to for sixty five years do not use the LCD screen a lot So we have to that keep that in mind that if you are going to implement LCD screen you do not have to make it that hard to learn or to use Industrial Designer: LCD screen as in touch screen ? Marketing: The last but not least younger people are more critical about the features Because they use the remote control often more often and are more technical than the old older people And the older people spend more money and easily on a remote control So we have to keep in mind to to focus not a lot not that much on the younger pep younger people but also somewhat on the elderly people And on my personal preferences I do not have any mo more time to come with that but like I said LCD screen is easily to use because you have you can implement a lot of buttons in one remote with not that much buttons And it should be easy to use Especially the volume buttons the channel buttes buttons and the number buttons to zap through the channels And that is it","According to data, Marketing thought that younger people were more interested in features like LCD screen and speech recognition. However, older people didn't care about features so much and spent more money on remote control than younger people. Findings also showed that fifty percent of users lost remote control so bigger is better than smaller about remote control. Marketing expressed that volume button and channel button were the most important buttons so they should be found easily." "Project Manager: So that is the first thing we I think we should pay less attention to teletext the remote control should only be used for the television otherwise the project becomes more complex which endangers the time to market and of course would make it more costly I think our current customers are within the age group of forty plus and new product should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty and you talked about that before And a last point but also very important our corporate image should stay recognisable in our products which means that our corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design So we have to keep that in mind well according to our agenda it is then time to take a decision on the remote control functions So who has any idea about what should be on it and what should not ? User Interface: Well you said it should only work with one appliance ? Or with one d che only the TV ? Project Manager: Only be used for television User Interface: And the video also or not ? Project Manager: Well it says only for television here huh Makes it a lot easier huh ? Marketing: So then you can Requirements no ? Functions User Interface: Then it should have on off Marketing: the basics then by a volume channel one till two zero numbers on it oh teletext does not have to be ? User Interface: Well yes yes s sh A button where you can change from one number to two numbers Industrial Designer: Two s two two digits User Interface: Do not know if that is got a name Industrial Designer: I understand what you mean Marketing: I think it is I think it is easy to implement a button with a s s what which especially do that because some TVs if you press the t one and then the two it be between five secs it make twelve and that is that is not relaxed Industrial Designer: And and there are some models that do not accommodate that function So d wh the Philips television makes it possible in that indeed to press one and then two to make the tj to reach channel twelve Marketing: So that it easy and fast Industrial Designer: But all the television makes use of those button where you first press that button and then press two digits to to get User Interface: so you should have that one on","Project Manager said that remote control should only work with TV. Marketing thought the basics should be volume, channel and one till two zero numbers. Users Interface suggested remote control should with a button you can change from one number to two numbers." "Marketing: Our main targets age are ? were ? Forty five plus or ? Project Manager: new product should reach a market with customers that are younger than forty and now we have current customers of forty plus Marketing: Forties because because younger people as younger people have now sixteen till to twenty five age are f eighty one percent interested in LCD screen From twenty six to thirty five have sixty six percent and thirty six to forty five fifty five percent so I think to Because on most recog remote controls the print plate will be broken how much two years You have to press h very hard to go to the next channel With the LCD screen it is easier because you only have to wipe the screen to for fingerprint Industrial Designer: we we could But I think that that collides with our mission to make it very cheap Marketing: and then you can use it again Industrial Designer: Because LCD screens are very expensive A touch screen probably even more Marketing: but a you do not know Industrial Designer: But Well is it possible to make an LCD screen how was the information ? Marketing: it only says that this perce percentage like LCD screen Because and it says that younger age between sixteen and forty five highly interesting features more critical Industrial Designer: So perhaps we should we should focus on that LCD screen Marketing: And if the only f because our target is sixteen to forty five",Project Manage thought they should reach a market with customers that were younger than forty as they already had forty plus customers. Marketing suggested it should be sixteen to forty-five as they like the LCD screen most. "Project Manager: So we are going for an LCD screen ? Marketing: I think it is the most easier thing Project Manager: And hoping that when we produce a lot it will not be too expensive User Interface: Well we had twelve fifty I guess for production ? Industrial Designer: Well I suppose wi if the mar if our if the i if the young people are interested in LCD screens we should make them And if that is our d market share to and our goal to deliver those remote controls User Interface: But But he also said that we should not only focus on the younger people but also on the older and will they use it if it only has an LCD screen ? Marketing: but s forty six to forty five thirty three percent and sixty fifty six to sixty five twelve percent User Interface: Oh so still a little bit people Marketing: But our our our what is it project requirements are the new products should be reached for new markets to customers that are younger than forty User Interface: that is right But you do not want to alienate the other Marketing: No that not now but so User Interface: But if they also buy it then it is alright I guess Marketing: but market share fro for for forty years and younger is higher than that of sixty five and younger Project Manager: so LCD it is ? Industrial Designer: I hope we h and let us hope to reach those those sales Marketing: i i if it if it costs gets too much too expensive then we should be sticking to rubber buttons Industrial Designer: can you s I think that that they will send you some information about the cost of LCD screens Marketing: N nothing no costs at all Industrial Designer: so if you you receive an email about that can you post it in the or should not we post that in our projects mail folder Marketing: I think that should I think we all get the costs of everything Industrial Designer: Because you are the the Marketing Expert Marketing: I will I will post it","Industrial Designer thought if young people interested in LCD Team should make them. User Interface thought old people's need should be taken into consideration. Like if old people could use an LCD screen. Marketing insisted market share for younger people is higher than older people so they should use LCD screens. Meanwhile, Marketing said if the LCD screen cost too much then they should change to rubber buttons. Project Manager agreed and hoped LCD would not be too expensive as they produced a lot." "Project Manager: if we can move on to next presentation then please User Interface: Do you want to switch places ? Marketing: Can this can this pl reach ? Can this plug come across ? So why do not I just pick up and move then Here I will just Why do not I just Mm er can you go up behind me ? Kind Of This is so This Project Manager: bit complicated It would be nice if everything was wireless would not it ? Marketing: I am all in a knot now So I can I can say already I do not know whether this is for good or for bad but there will be a lot of kind of redundancy in the in the the issues and the the the things Project Manager: Oh like overlap between what you said ? Oh well for all you know that that will happen Marketing: Which is ma not necessarily a bad thing but may what I have already started doing is cr I created a slide in in my presentation here so so that we kind of think well what is the cumulative effect of what we have taken from your ideas and and mine because certainly I I have a hard time separating separating things completely Project Manager: Mm hard to know what where your role ends Marketing: Obviously obviously what you have just told me what you have just told me impacts a lot on what like market research mm that that I have been So how do I how do I get this up ? Project Manager: pr press function and F eight Marketing: Alright So F eight ? Industrial Designer: Function the blue button Next to the control on the left You have to push it together Marketing: I think that that is doing it now User Interface: Think maybe the the wire in the back might be loose Project Manager: you want to Oh oh here we go Marketing: great Just Before I bring this up what I will just say is what I have what I have done is tried to collect some information so that I can then relay this to to you guys so that it is now becomes a collective thing And then kind of lead us in the direction of deciding kay what what are our options what should we decide and do you know what I mean so Industrial Designer: Increase that because we can not see the Marketing: Alright That would be So does that make sense ? So what I basically got is I just looked into some information and sort of th tried to think about how how we could review it and how we could and what kind of decisions we could take away from it and then maybe by the end of just looking at some of these things we can think about what are our priorities Because certainly there is lots of different information to go through So I am thinking here about primarily about customer needs that we start with the customer and w you know what they want and what are issues with with existing products to think about trends and also about try and connect that as you see with the company vision which is about fashion in electronics and then as I say w we would like to prioritise our design features from this and So this is what I have found here a lot of this is new to me so we will just read through together users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls So they find them ugly Most people find them ugly the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well we will see later the vast majority would spend more money for slightly more intuitive control such as voice recognition I am going to we will look at that in a second most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls So I guess what we are looking at here is people want this h technology they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do not does not really appeal to them So I think what we are doing is we are trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different inspirations you know one is that we want something that is hightech but we want it to seem easy And in spite of the primitive side of it and the very hightech side we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in peoples hands frustrations They get lost a lot s as it came up in our last meeting takes time to learn how to use them This is why I mention when Craig was showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls so d it does not just look like a big panel kind of like when you you look at you know a new computer keyboard or something that is quite explanatory If you want audio if you want visual then you have those and I will admit I do not know what RSI stands for Industrial Designer: Is installing a new remote control something that people Marketing: no that did not come up at all so here here is another sort of a a review here of the main things I also found that most people would adults at least would pay more for voice recognition Now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control So I do not know if that is possible we might consider getting into it And and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we want to sell and market this I think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that is fashionable and sleek and trendy people additionally are not are not liking the appearance of their products so we want to think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can put that into a unit which is which people like You know they like the aesthetics and the ergonomics Project Manager: So want something that looks good and is easy to use big priorities Marketing: so you know just c looking at what what Craig Craigs i ideas are s sorta tell me that maybe what we want to do is try and separate the different things that we want to include in this So if we do say well we want there to be all the technology will we try and make that almost be like optional technology You know it is like like I find a lot of TVs these days something really like about them is if you want to just turn them on and off you can but they have little panels where you click and there is just like tons of features you go through Project Manager: Mm So it you want to group all the different kind of types of functions together you know That is I think it is a good idea Marketing: That is s that is sort of the But I I am my hope here is that I am putting out this information so that we can then say well how do we collectively move on with it I I have not brought out one specific marketing idea although my sense is that what we should try and think about is what are the current trends in materials and shapes and styles and then use that But not let that confine us technologically So Alright ? Any comments on all of that ? Project Manager: Well one of the things that we have to decide on by the end of the meeting is who we are going to be who is our our target audience our target market so if we want something that that looks good and is easy to use but has y is fairly powerful product whatever who do we really want to aim that at ? Marketing: Where is the money maybe Project Manager: who wou who would have the money to spend Well i if if like twenty five Euro is our is our selling price then you can imagine Marketing: And who watches TV Mmhmm Project Manager: well I do not I am not really sure how much that will retail at But you want it is somebody who is not going to just use the remote that comes with their telly I suppose they are going to actually go out and buy one So who do you think we are aiming this at ? Industrial Designer: I think it will be the mid range to the high end market in terms of people Because twenty five Euros for a remote how much is that lo locally in pounds ? Project Manager: It is about sixteen seventeen pounds I think Industrial Designer: Is that too is that a lot of money to buy an extra remote or a replacement remote ? so maybe not the high end range but maybe middle middle upish Kind of You know how much ? I do not know I guess you pay what ten ten quid for a remote ? Like a simple replacement right I mean if you lost your remote and the first thing you just want to go out and get would you how much would you pay ? Marketing: This this kind of touches on your comments there David These are the age groups which we have information on and these are this is a table of h what people would pay more for a certain feature Just gives us a rough idea of where the w the will to spend money on TV equipment is Mostly focused around the twenty five age group Project Manager: so do you think we are we are aiming at a fairly young market then ? Marketing: Sort of young professional kind of Mmhmm Project Manager: do you think then voice recognition is something we should really seriously consider ? What what do you think Craig ? User Interface: Well did you not say it was the the adults that were going for the the voice recognition ? Sort of the the older group Marketing: It does it does fit with the market that we are sort of identifying Project Manager: I think we are going to have to narrow it down to say let us target these people and give them what they want and because you know there needs to be some kind of selling point to it So anybody anything there to add Just kind of young professionals th like if we are going to include speech recognition it is kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that So we could say that was our target Industrial Designer: I I think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well because that is more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology Project Manager: Mmhmm so fifteen to thirty five look fairly young You know they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing Industrial Designer: I think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work I think people who are maybe about I would not say thirty five but people who are about fortyish and above now would not be so dependent and reliant on a computer or a mobile phone or something like that So these are people who are gadgety right ? People who are you growing up used to you know in schools and in universities when you go on to their working lives people who would you know regular Project Manager: So they will not sh not shy away from something quite hightech That that is that is a good point so shall we make the decision to include speech recognition Industrial Designer: I I think one thing we should try not to avoid is not to say we have to use speech recognition right now because based on what you have go y everybodys saying right you want something simple You want basic stuff and you want something that is easy to use Speech recognition might not be the simplest thing for somebody to use Marketing: Could it be an on off thing ? Like if you want it on Industrial Designer: but what I am saying is that we are we are trying to lock ourselves into a s particular kind of technology Project Manager: Where you can activate it and deactivate it ? Industrial Designer: rather than focusing on on exactly what are the features that we are going to say and then you know say speech recognition is good for this speech recognition is not good for this I suggest that we think about speech recognition anyway it is a it is something that can be used to fulfil a function but at end of the day we do not look at the technology but we look at the function first","Marketing mentioned three main inspirations. The first one was the customer’s need for the trend of fashion in electronics. The second one was the simplicity of technology and Marketing mentioned that existing customers would be willing to pay more for voice recognition. The third one was about the aesthetics, the look of the remote including its shape and colour." "Marketing: So this is what I have found here a lot of this is new to me so we will just read through together users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls So they find them ugly Most people find them ugly the vast majority would spend more money for it to look fancy as well we will see later the vast majority would spend more money for slightly more intuitive control such as voice recognition I am going to we will look at that in a second most people use only a f a very slim portion of all the controls So I guess what we are looking at here is people want this h technology they tend to use the most simple controls and overall they find remote controls to be something they do not does not really appeal to them So I think what we are doing is we are trying to take like if for me this is sorta like three different different inspirations you know one is that we want something that is hightech but we want it to seem easy And in spite of the primitive side of it and the very hightech side we want it to just be an appealing piece of equipment in peoples hands frustrations They get lost a lot s as it came up in our last meeting takes time to learn how to use them This is why I mention when Craig was showing us some ideas that we actually try and group controls so d it does not just look like a big panel kind of like when you you look at you know a new computer keyboard or something that is quite explanatory If you want audio if you want visual then you have those and I will admit I do not know what RSI stands for Industrial Designer: Is installing a new remote control something that people Marketing: no that did not come up at all so here here is another sort of a a review here of the main things I also found that most people would adults at least would pay more for voice recognition Now apparently we do have access to all the tech cutting edge technology in remote control So I do not know if that is possible we might consider getting into it And and again here as we sort of move m sort of thin start thinking about how we want to sell and market this I think a recurring theme here is the company wants it to be wants us to make something that is fashionable and sleek and trendy people additionally are not are not liking the appearance of their products so we want to think about as we take all the sort of the techie features how we can put that into a unit which is which people like",Project Manager asked if people would think that installing a new remote was a technology innovation. Marketing was against it and recommended the voice recognition technology because Marketing found the recurring theme was fashionable and trendy. "Project Manager: Just kind of young professionals th like if we are going to include speech recognition it is kind of between fifteen and thirty five seems to be like a really high response to that So we could say that was our target Industrial Designer: I I think twenty five to thirty five is is is fair to add that in as a group as well because that is more than half your group of people who are willing to at least try and use your technology Project Manager: Mmhmm so fifteen to thirty five look fairly young You know they have bit of expendable income to spend on this sort of thing Industrial Designer: I think perhaps that age group is significant as well because those are people who use the computer who are familiar with their with computers in in their everyday work","The group mentioned that if they need to include speech recognition, they should target between fifteen and thirty-five because this age group would be willing to try new technology. Group mates also supplemented that this age group had a bit of expendable income to spend on the new technology and they were familiar with computers." "Project Manager: well do you want to give us your presentation and then then we can I do not know might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss but this is this is how we are Marketing: it is good well it is good to get ideas out while they are fresh in mind Project Manager: Oh it is something that is just occurred to me as well is if we make it speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition that is appealing to people maybe with a physical disability as well Marketing: And not losing And also it helps in terms of people not losing this you know they they are saying oh it is I lose it in the couch like we are kind of what we are b sort of getting in into here is mating different design features together User Interface: I reckon one problem with speech recognition is I have actually seen one of them used and the technology that was in that one was not particularly amazing so you end up yelling at the control for hours Marketing: Oh really you have seen one before Project Manager: Do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it is worthwhile incorporating it though ? User Interface: I think it would probably quite expensive to put in Industrial Designer: Sorry do you mind passing me my notepad Well this is just the working design Well this is just what how I would go about it I guess I try to define like what we are doing now try to define what we are trying to get done I think in a practical way we kind of know what it is We have used it we are familiar with it but we are we can not n we have not narrowed down exactly what the things we are trying to fulfil like Besides the basics I think back in the back of our minds we know what the basics are Has to change channels has to change volume but in like specifics right which one of the basics are you trying to target are there certain parts of the basics that are more important or less important than the basics ? and I just the idea is just to get everybody to I usually have a have have a design that is there as a basic so you know things that to start everything going But I guess everybody does have some idea so I do not think there is a need for that this finding things is a little bit confusing so I will go into the diagram first It just explains how the process goes through from a from the basic technology point of view the basic steps that you need in the diagram and in this slide probably works better you need some power source Kay a battery or something to keep it going and that power source is important because it ties you down to how long the device will last it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want Like for example voice recognition right That might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone you might need to power other things so that is one perhaps constraint there Th the basic thing is there is a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes whatever You know and that picks up an input from a user a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device and the device has to r you know based on you push button A so I will do something with button A So maybe button A is the power button and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here and I think that is about it in terms of my design It is fairly general and I guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you are thinking like voice recognition right if it is something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do not have enough power So it is not really a constraint in that sense but I mean these are functionally you know the base what the technology has to do so I guess the rest of it I think we should maybe you you want to go back to what the functions are ? I think that is more relevant to a discussion ? Project Manager: Well do you wan do you want to finish up your your whole presentation then ? Are you are you all done ? Industrial Designer: More or less Ps Oh it is just putting the rest of it into words but it is essentially the same thing you have a transmitter an input device logic chip you know stuff like that","Industrial Designer introduced the basic working design logic of the remote, including the working process, the batteries, the power source to transmit the signal, the voice recognition as well as the interface for users to tab the button on the device." "Project Manager: and then then we can I do not know might have been a good idea to all deliver our presentations and then discuss but this is this is how we are Marketing: it is good well it is good to get ideas out while they are fresh in mind Project Manager: Oh it is something that is just occurred to me as well is if we make it speech reco if we incorporate speech recognition that is appealing to people maybe with a physical disability as well Marketing: And not losing And also it helps in terms of people not losing this you know they they are saying oh it is I lose it in the couch like we are kind of what we are b sort of getting in into here is mating different design features together User Interface: I reckon one problem with speech recognition is I have actually seen one of them used and the technology that was in that one was not particularly amazing so you end up yelling at the control for hours Marketing: Oh really you have seen one before Project Manager: Do you think maybe we need like further advances in that kind of area until it is worthwhile incorporating it though ? User Interface: I think it would probably quite expensive to put in","The voice recognition could deliver advantages to physical disability and people not losing the remote. However, it could make people yell at the control for hours when the function was in trouble. So the group considered whether there was a need to add further advanced incorporation." Industrial Designer: and that power source is important because it ties you down to how long the device will last it ties you down perhaps a bit later on in terms of the technologies how far you can transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions that you want Like for example voice recognition right That might be constrained because that you might need to power a microphone you might need to power other things so that is one perhaps constraint there Th the basic thing is there is a user interface where people punch a button or talk into it or smile to it or blink their eyes whatever You know and that picks up an input from a user a logic a series of logic has to decide what the user is telling the device and the device has to r you know based on you push button A so I will do something with button A So maybe button A is the power button and then it needs to be able to send the signal out to the device itself which is the receiver here and I think that is about it in terms of my design It is fairly general and I guess the purpose of this is also not to restrict you in in the way you are thinking like voice recognition right if it is something which is important then we just add more power rather than having a thing that we do not have enough power So it is not really a constraint in that sense but I mean these are functionally you know the base what the technology has to do,"Industrial Designer mentioned that the power source would tell how long the device would last and how far it could transmit the signal or the complexity of the functions. Industrial Designer also mentioned that in the general design, the purpose of this was not to have a constraint in the sense of adding more power." "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID19 Pandemic Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday April20 the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements allowing members to present petitions and questioning ministers of the crown including the Prime Minister in respect of the COVID19 pandemic I understand there is an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost their lives last Wednesday in a helicopter crash off the coast of Greece We will return to order Colleagues we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the COVID19 pandemic As we do Canadians like everyone around the world are doing their best to live their lives until things improve Meanwhile as we look towards the future I believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the important moments in our shared history At this very moment the Dominion Carillonneur Dr Andrea McCrady is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by the Canadian Forces In May 1945 Canadian Forces played a major role in liberating the Dutch people from Nazi occupation May 5 is now a national holiday in the Netherlands that commemorates the event and the great friendship that now exists between our two countries Todays meeting is taking place by video conference The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website Please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee Let me remind you that as in the House or in committee members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings I will outline a few rules Interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the House At the bottom of your screen you can choose floor English or French As you have seen I change as I am speaking I have now switched over to English in order to speak English If you look at the bottom you have a little flag that indicates whether it is English or French and that is how we will be speaking It makes it easier That was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session I understand that there are no statements by ministers We can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes I would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certified by the clerk of petitions In addition to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous Parliament should be emailed to the committee no later than 6 pm on the day before the committee I thank all the members for their usual cooperation Thank you all Now we will proceed to presenting petitions Our first petition comes from the honourable member for Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan Mr Genuis Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr Chair I am pleased to be presenting two petitions today The first petition is with respect to government Bill C7 Petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime It includes removing the mandatory 10day reflection period and the number of required witnesses who will witness a persons consent The petitioners urge the House of Commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia and to put in place additional measures to protect vulnerable people This would require that bill to be amended or not passed The second petition is with respect to Senate public bill S204 This is on organ harvesting and trafficking Petitioners call on members of the House and hopefully the Senate as well to support Bill S204 which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent It would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to Canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking Thank you very much The Chair: Thank you I want to remind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us If you do not have one please talk to your IT ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible The reason for them is not so much for what you hear but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult Part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset which will make it very difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members Now we go to the member for BeachesEast York Mr ErskineSmith Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith (BeachesEast York, Lib.): Mr Chair I had to learn how to tie my tie all over again It is been so long I want to thank Jenna Robar who is led this petition e2453 The petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in Canada and that 2019 last year was declared by the UN to be the year of indigenous languages They draw attention to article 13 of the UNDRIP and to the TRCs calls to action numbers 13 to 16 Fundamentally they call upon the Government of Canada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of Canada and to have each language recognized nationally with implementations on regional and provincial levels acknowledging that many regions have different languages Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry, CPC): Mr Chair I am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents Myles Lynch of St Andrews West in my riding Myles made history as the first Canadian ever to survive three doublelung transplants Myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years and he is only 22 years old Myles created a documentary called 8 Thousand Myles which had a few showings in my riding It documented his journey across Canada One thing Myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national optout program for organ donation Myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue I mentioned to him epetitions online and getting people across the country to sign them I am proud to have this certified today with 1318 signatures asking the Standing Committee on Health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national optout program I give kudos to Myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacy for others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system Kudos to Myles I am proud to present this petition today Mr. Peter Julian (New WestminsterBurnaby, NDP): Mr Chair I am very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of Toronto Mississauga and Brampton Ontario who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands of Canadians who have signed similar petitions Given that Canadians are living through unprecedented catastrophic climate events and at the same time our society as you know is suffering from worsening social and economic inequalitieshalf of Canadian families are only 200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing these petitioners are calling on the Government of Canada to support motion M1 a madeinCanada green new deal that I am presenting in front of the House of Commons It calls on Canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climate emergency and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP): Mr Chair it is an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from CourtenayAlberni They are concerned obviously about fentanylrelated deaths Over 12000 Canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanylpoisoned sources They cite that the current war on drugs has been costly and grossly ineffective that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug trade that now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl They are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources with proper measures and bylaws will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs Problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption They are calling on the Government of Canada to declare the current opioid overdose and fenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the Emergencies Act They are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession as has been done in Portugal and other countries and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally recreationally or chronically are not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC): Mr Chair I am presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of Canadians in my riding with the governments approach to firearms legislation and regulation The petition highlights that the Liberal governments December 5 2019 Speech from the Throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearms legislation and regulation that the term militarystyle assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in Canadian law that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in their jurisdictions that the experts including chiefs of police agree that banning firearms and requiring lawabiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety that the majority of guns used in violent crimes are smuggled into Canada from the United States and that the Liberal government continues to target lawabiding firearms owners instead of the gangs drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickers responsible for violence in our communities The petitioners in MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting lawabiding firearms owners to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legally owned by federally licensed RCMPvetted Canadians and to focus our limited resources on antigang enforcement on reducing the involvement of atrisk youth and gangs on mental health and on providing the Canada Border Services Agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively The Chair: Very good That is all for petitions today We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers I would like to remind honourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair Ministers responding to the question should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking I want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly not only for ourselves but also for the interpreters We start the question period with MrPaulHus Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you MrChair Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish lawabiding firearm owners Why ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): MrChair I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia Once again too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief During the last election campaign we promised to ban militarystyle assault weapons and that is exactly what we have done We will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control It is a shame that once more the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I understand the Prime Ministers reply However I would like to know whether he considers that with this order in council organized crime street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: This is indeed only a first step but it is an important one We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities to strengthen the control at our borders and to implement other measures I am pleased to hear the hon member speak of those measures because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way in order to keep Canadians safe Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals not lawabiding citizens Speaking of criminals we know that even before the pandemic the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly Now we are learning that because of the pandemic some releases are happening very quickly The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released Can the Prime Minister give us an explanation ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The protection the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians We have managed to find the right balance We must protect Canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe Those two things go handinhand Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID19 within the walls ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released The Chair: MrPaulHus you have one minute left Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Thank you MrChair The Chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus Australia asked for an indepth investigation but has received threats from the communist regime Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demand that the Chinese government be completely transparent ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We continue to stand in solidarity with our allies including the Five Eyes as they have stood in solidarity with Canada in terms of the two Canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in China In the coming months and years we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic including questions that are important for China At the same time we are going to work hard to ensure that all Canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic","The Chair brought the meeting to order, announcing that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss COVID-19 's impact on Canada. Five petitions were presented: to recognize indeginous languages as official languages of Canada, to improve the organ donation system, to push for a made-in-Canada green economy, to decriminalize drug possession to improve public health, and to protect firearm ownership of law-abiding firearm owners. Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus suggested that the government should not try to pass gun-control legislation or release prisoners during the pandemic. The Prime Minister disagreed, claiming that both passing gun-control and releasing imprisoned Canadians who did not pose a threat to society advanced the safety of Canadians." "Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you MrChair Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish lawabiding firearm owners Why ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): MrChair I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia Once again too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief During the last election campaign we promised to ban militarystyle assault weapons and that is exactly what we have done We will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control It is a shame that once more the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I understand the Prime Ministers reply However I would like to know whether he considers that with this order in council organized crime street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: This is indeed only a first step but it is an important one We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities to strengthen the control at our borders and to implement other measures I am pleased to hear the hon member speak of those measures because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way in order to keep Canadians safe Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals not lawabiding citizens Speaking of criminals we know that even before the pandemic the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly Now we are learning that because of the pandemic some releases are happening very quickly The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released Can the Prime Minister give us an explanation ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The protection the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians We have managed to find the right balance We must protect Canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe Those two things go handinhand Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID19 within the walls ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There are very strict rules and principles to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released The Chair: MrPaulHus you have one minute left Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Thank you MrChair The Chinese government has not been transparent with the rest of the world about the coronavirus Australia asked for an indepth investigation but has received threats from the communist regime Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demand that the Chinese government be completely transparent ?",Mr. Paul-Hus thought that the government should not take firearms away from law-abiding Canadian citizens. He inquired into how the government would take guns from criminals. He also expressed concern about the quick release of dangerous criminals during the pandemic and China's intransparency with regards to the pandemic. "Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you MrChair Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and the government has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures to punish lawabiding firearm owners Why ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): MrChair I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia Once again too many families are facing tragedy and tremendous grief During the last election campaign we promised to ban militarystyle assault weapons and that is exactly what we have done We will be working with members from all parties in order to continue strengthening gun control It is a shame that once more the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I understand the Prime Ministers reply However I would like to know whether he considers that with this order in council organized crime street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: This is indeed only a first step but it is an important one We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities to strengthen the control at our borders and to implement other measures I am pleased to hear the hon member speak of those measures because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way in order to keep Canadians safe Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: MrChair I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals not lawabiding citizens Speaking of criminals we know that even before the pandemic the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly Now we are learning that because of the pandemic some releases are happening very quickly The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older but we are learning in the media that some dangerous criminals are being released Can the Prime Minister give us an explanation ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The protection the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government This is why we have taken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases but only in very specific cases that present little or no danger for Canadians We have managed to find the right balance We must protect Canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe Those two things go handinhand Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So is the Prime Minister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID19 within the walls ?","The Prime Minister disagreed with Mr. Paul-Hus. He expressed that he had a mandate from the last election campaign to ban military-style assault weapons, and expressed disappointment about Conservatives' not wanting to do the same. He also claimed that speedy releases of inmates were governed by strict rules and were important to ensure that correctional services were protected from the virus." "Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Very good Mr Chair My riding is on the border of Canada and the YOUS We see a number of inconsistencies in what is considered essential travel with regard to the YOUS and actually in the interpretation of different CBSA agents While we have Americans coming over to buy cheaper prescription medications and to fish individuals in my riding who are trying to get auditors over so that they can be approved for export businesses are being declined We have people who have purchased masts from Canadian producers for their boats and who want to come and pick them up who are not being allowed to do that People trying to sell plasma into the YOUS are being denied When will they clarify the rules to the CBSA agents so that essential travel and trade and commerce including individual commerce is understood ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr Chair we have implemented very rigorous rules that have been well documented and understood by CBSA to stop all nonessential travel Those measures have been very successful We have seen a 99 reduction in international travel coming into Canada At the same time we recognize the importance of maintaining essential supply routes so that goods and services could reach Canada and we could put groceries on our shelves We also recognize the important work that essential workers do on both sides of the border We have provided CBSA with clarification Their interpretation of those rules has been broadly consistent I have heard from a number of our colleagues in caucus with concerns about individual cases When we receive those inquiries we follow up immediately I want to assure the member that we will continue to do that The work we are doing to stop nonessential travel has been important for the health and safety of Canadians and we will continue with that work Ms. Marilyn Gladu: Mr Chair my next question has to do with sole proprietor businesses We see that many of them are not eligible for any of the benefit packages that have been rolled outEI CERB the wage subsidy etc What is the government going to do to address sole proprietors who are currently falling through the cracks ? Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr Chair first let me say that we absolutely recognize there are businesses across the country of all sizes that are finding this to be extremely difficult The intent of the measures we put forward is obviously not only to give individuals a bridge but to give businesses a bridge We are looking at ways that we can ensure that the Canada emergency business account has the broadest possible application More than 500000 businesses have already been approved for these loans representing over 20 billion We are looking at ways we can consider that eligibility process recognizing that we need to make sure that the program continues to have its desired impact and we will have more to say on that The Chair: The next question will go to Mr Arnold Mr. Mel Arnold (North OkanaganShuswap, CPC): Mr Chair this is my first appearance so I hope you can hear me The Chair: We can hear you fine Please proceed Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you Mr Chair It is good to see everyone is faces On April 3 the fisheries minister said opening dates would be determined by harvesters Since then the minister has overruled the will of harvesters in Prince Edward Island and in the gulf who voted to start their seasons on time but she has allowed harvesters from her own riding to proceed with their seasons as scheduled giving them access to markets weeks before their competitors This double standard is severely unfair and Atlantic harvesters are furious as demonstrated during the protests on the Canso Causeway yesterday When will the minister stop abusing her position and start respecting fish harvesters by opening up lobster fishing areas 23 24 and 26 ? Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): Mr Chair when making decisions with regard to when seasons open a number of factors are taken into account They are complex decisions that take into account what is necessary for processors to be ready for the season what is necessary for harvesters to be ready for the season as well socioeconomic impacts on the area We are looking at all of those measures when we make these decisions We do not make them lightly They are difficult decisions to make In the decisions we have made around the gulf one of the main things we heard from all of those areas is that it was very important for them to start on the same date That is why the decision was made to start on the 15th of May We are looking forward to seeing the harvesters out on the water We are looking forward to the product that they bring in We will continue do everything we can to support the industry Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you Minister I believe the time The Chair: Excuse me No the hon minister had another 15 seconds coming to her I would like to remind hon members not to interrupt a person while they are speaking I will do my best to try to keep it about level Maybe I will start muting if it is necessary but interrupting is not going to solve anything Mr Arnold I will let you continue You have three minutes and nine seconds left Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you Mr Chair West coast fishing tourism is a key economic driver in British Columbia especially in coastal communities and yet the public fishery gets no respect from the government Last year the public fishery was weakened by restrictions based on ideology and not science A year later the fisheries minister refuses even to discuss viable sciencebased solutions to conserve BCs public fisheries Does the minister and her government have a will and a plan to support Canadas west coast fisheries and the communities they sustain ? The Chair: The hon minister in 30 seconds please Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair the fishery is important in every coastal community I recognize its value for our economy as well as what it means to our coastal communities That is why we continue to work with those communities and with the fisheries to make sure that we are doing everything we possibly can to support them During these extremely difficult times we are working on measures with the fishery in BC as well as on the Atlantic coast and eastern Quebec to make sure that we are delivering for them and that all of the issues they are having are being addressed Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr Chair Canadas seniors especially those on basic incomes are being hard hit by the COVID19 crisis as they face new rising costs and scarcity of services Seniors require adequate caregiver supports physical safety and freedom to access their savings to reinforce their financial security Why has the government failed to recognize the increasing challenges that seniors are facing ? Will the government support Canadas senior citizens ? The Chair: The hon minister in 30 seconds or less please Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair I want to assure my hon colleague that the government has been focused on seniors during this challenging time We have provided a GST credit supplement of 400 for single seniors and 600 for couples for low and modestincome seniors We have also ensured that the Canada emergency response benefit is there for seniors who have lost income due to COVID19 We have made them eligible The Chair: We will go back to Mr Arnold Mr Arnold you have a minutehopefully a 30second question and a 30second answer Mr. Mel Arnold: Thank you Mr Chair On April 23 my colleagues and I called on the government to create a program that would match students seeking employment with employers in Canadas essential food supply chains What has the government done to match students and other Canadians seeking employment with employers in the agriculture and agrifood sectors including those in the fish and seafood sector ? Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr Chair we are doing all we can to make sure using our existing employment programs that we create opportunities for students to work and get work experience this summer We know that this is going to be really tough especially in areas like agriculture so we have dedicated streams for agriculture sector employers to access students with help from the government and a number of different initiatives including Canada summer jobs which I am really excited to see the results of in the coming days","Members expressed concern that pandemic related restrictions were harming businesses and that the government was not reopening businesses and providing stimulus in an effective fashion. Emphasis was placed on reopening fishing, restoring agricultural supply chains, and supporting farmers. Many members inquired as to why the government had only furnished $252 million of the promised $2.6 billion fund to maintain food security in Canada." "The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair to avoid back and forth just to try to keep some order in the meeting Ms McPherson please continue Ms. Heather McPherson: I am sorry Chair I have another question on the protection for workers At the meatpacking plant workers are calling for the plant to be shut down In fact we know that 85 of workers are afraid for their safety If the provincial government will not shut down the plant will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency let me be very clear that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture has been in touch with provincial authorities She has been in touch with the plant The duties of the food inspection agency of course are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe That is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on We are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that The Chair: We will go back to Ms McPherson","Ms. McPherson wanted to know how the government will respond to outbreaks in meat-packing plants since workers' pleas to place effective safety protocols have been fruitless. She further inquired if the federal government would provide financial support to the workers if they declined to work under unsafe conditions, and, if it comes to it, shut down the plants. She finally wanted to know if the Cargill business, which uses Luxembourg as a tax haven, was the recipient of pandemic relief funds." "Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP): Thank you Mr Chair for the opportunity to represent my constituents virtually during this challenging period of physical distancing I would like to start by asking about supports for workers In Alberta meatpacking plants are directly responsible for nearly a quarter of all COVID19 cases The government and management ignored the pleas of workers and did not put effective safety protocols in place to deal with COVID19 Now two workers are dead at least six more are in intensive care and COVID19 is spreading like wildfire through these communities There are over 1400 cases Yesterday employees were forced back to work even though their concerns had not been addressed On March 27 regarding the CERB the Minister of Finance said that if workers do not feel comfortable in their work if they decide to stay home they can apply for the benefit yet the website says differently Will the minister guarantee that every Canadian receiving CERB EI or the CESB will not lose their benefits if they refuse to return to work or to accept work that is unsafe due to COVID19 ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me thank the member first of all for her really very important question I think all of us share the concern for Canadas essential workers who are keeping us safe putting food on our tables and often working in difficult conditions When it comes to the Cargill plant this is an issue that our government has been very closely engaged in My colleague the Minister of Agriculture has spoken with her provincial counterpart and the head of the plant The decisions about suspending and reopening are taken by local and provincial health authorities To the question my colleague asked about workers it is absolutely the case that no Canadian should feel they need to work in an environment that is unsafe and it is also very much the case that any Canadian who is feeling unwell should stay at home This is the way that collectively we take care of ourselves and we take care The Chair: We will go on to Ms McPherson for the next question Ms. Heather McPherson: I just want to be clear because I am not a hundred per cent sure that I got an answer in that response so I will try one more time Knowing that workers have a fundamental right to refuse unsafe work can the minister confirm one hundred per cent that if workers refuse unsafe work they will be able to access the CERB or was the Minister of Finance incorrect when he spoke on March 27 ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I am sorry but I was struggling with my mute button I apologize Let me just be very clear No Canadian worker at any time should feel obliged to go to work in unsafe conditions Ms. Heather McPherson: But then could they access the CERB ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: In a time of coronavirus that is even more the case and the government of course should not penalize workers for doing the right thing and declining to go to work in unsafe conditions The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to place their questions through the Chair to avoid back and forth just to try to keep some order in the meeting Ms McPherson please continue Ms. Heather McPherson: I am sorry Chair I have another question on the protection for workers At the meatpacking plant workers are calling for the plant to be shut down In fact we know that 85 of workers are afraid for their safety If the provincial government will not shut down the plant will the federal government shut down unsafe plants through the Canadian Food Inspection Agency ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency let me be very clear that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture has been in touch with provincial authorities She has been in touch with the plant The duties of the food inspection agency of course are to ensure that the food produced at the plant is safe That is what inspectors are trained to do and what they are focused on We are working closely with provincial authorities and with health authorities to ensure that",Hon. Chrystia Freeland was thankful for the farmers who worked hard to feed the country and was pleased that partisanship had been pushed aside to fight the coronavirus. She stood by the idea that no Canadian should have to work in an unsafe environment and put her trust in the Food Inspection Agency to regulate working conditions. "Grad D: No I spoke with Jane about that and we sort of decided that it s probably not an issue that We edit out any of the errors anyway Right ? So the there are no errors in the digits you will always read the string correctly So I can not imagine why anyone would care So the other topic with digits is Liz would like to elicit different prosodics and so we tried last week with them written out in English And it just did not work at all because no one grouped them together So it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else So in conversations with Liz and Jane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number social security number like readings The problem with that is it becomes numbers instead of digits When I look at this that first line is `` sixty one sixty two eighteen eighty six ten `` and so the question is does anyone care ? I ve already spoken with Liz and she feels that correct me if I m wrong that for her connected numbers is fine as opposed to connected digits I think two hours is probably fine for a test set but it may be a little short if we actually want to do training and adaptation and all that other stuff Professor F: do you want different prosodics so if you always had the same groupings you would not like that ? Is that correct ? PhD G: Well we actually figured out a way to the the groupings are randomly generated Professor F: No but I was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it was not it seems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people would not go and do numbers so much You know if it if it s PhD G: I think they may still do it Professor F: Maybe some but I probably not so much PhD B: What about putting a hyphen between the numbers in the group ? Professor F: Right ? So if you if if you have Grad D: Six dash one you mean ? Professor F: if you go six six six dash two nine three one PhD G: I well OK I it might help I would like to g get away from having only one specific grouping Professor F: That s what I was asking PhD G: so if that s your question but I mean it seems to me that at least for us we can learn to read them as digits if that s what people want I I m do not think that would be that hard to read them as single digits and it seems like that might be better for you guys since then you will have just more digit data and that s always a good thing It s a little bit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize They are better trained than the numbers Grad D: So we could just put in the instructions `` read them as digits `` PhD G: Right Right read them as single digits so sixty one w is read as six one and if people make a mistake we Grad D: How about `` O `` versus `` zero `` ? Professor F: I mean the other thing is we could just bag it because it s it s it s I m not worrying about it I mean because we do have digits training data that we have from from OGI I m sorry digits numbers training that we have from OGI we ve done lots and lots of studies with that And PhD G: But it s nice to get it in this room with the acous I mean for it s Professor F: No no I guess what I m saying is that Grad D: Just let them read it how they read it Professor F: to some extent maybe we could just read them have them read how how they read it and it just means that we have to expand our our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have PhD G: Right Well that s fine with me as long as It s just that I did not want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits Professor F: We can go back to the other thing later I mean we s we we ve We can do this for awhile and then go back to digits for awhile or Do yo I mean do you want do you want this Do you need training data or adaptation data out of this ? How much of this do you need ? with the PhD G: It s actually unclear right now I just thought well we are if we are collec collecting digits and Adam had said we were running out of the TI forms I thought it would be nice to have them in groups and probably all else being equal it would be better for me to just have single digits since it s you know a recognizer s going to do better on those anyway and it s more predictable So we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber in general Professor F: OK well if you pre PhD G: But if they make mistakes it s no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of `` one OO `` and also w maybe we can just let them choose `` zero `` versus `` O `` as they as they like because even the same person c sometimes says `` O `` and sometimes says `` zero `` in different context and that s sort of interesting So I do not have a Specific need cuz if I did I would probably try to collect it you know without bothering this group but If we can try it Grad D: OK so so I can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not as connected numbers PhD G: Right and you can give an example like you know `` six sixty one would be read as six one `` Postdoc E: Mm And i actually it s no more artificial than what we ve been doing with words PhD G: And I think people will get it Postdoc E: I m sure people can adapt to this read it single The spaces already bias it toward being separated PhD G: It s just easier to read Postdoc E: And I know I m going to find this easier than words",Digits forms will instruct speakers to read digits separately and not as connected numbers. A tentative decision was made to collect overlapping digits from speakers. "Grad D: And I think there are about ten different gouping patterns PhD G: Well let s give it a try Grad D: is not that right Liz ? That we did PhD G: Righ right and you just they are randomly nonvocalsound generated and randomly assigned to digits Professor F: Sorry I I was just going to say so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of of recordings now And you are saying two hours is digits so that s roughly the ratio then something like twenty twenty to one Which I guess makes makes sense So if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this like you say I think a couple hours for a for a for a test test set s OK It would be nice to get you know more later because we will we might use use this up in some sense Postdoc E: I also would like to argue for that cuz it it seems to me that there s a real strength in having the same test replicated in a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank ? Cuz then you have you know more and more you chances to get away from random errors And I think the other thing too is that right now we have sort of a stratified sample with reference to dialect groups and it might be there might be an argument to be made for having f for replicating all of the digits that we ve done which were done by non native speakers so that we have a core that totally replicates the original data set which is totally American speakers and then we have these stratified additional language groups overlapping certain aspects of the database Grad D: Right I think that trying to duplicate spending too much effort trying to duplicate the existing TI digits probably is not too worthwhile because the recording situation is so different It s going to be very hard to be comparable Postdoc E: Except that if you have the stimuli pause comparable then it says something about the the contribution of setting Professor F: No it s it s not the same A little bit but the other differences are so major Grad D: I mean read versus not Professor F: They are such major sources of variance that it s it s it s Postdoc E: What s an example of a of m some of the other differences ? Any other a difference ? Professor F: Well i i individual human glottis is going to be different for each one you know it s just There s so many things Grad D: Well and not just that Professor F: it s it and and enunciation Grad D: I mean the the corpus itself I mean we are collecting it in a read digit in a particular list and I m sure that they are doing more specific stuff I mean if I remember correctly it was like postman reading zipcodes and things like that Professor F: I thought I thought it was read I think the reading zipcode stuff you are thinking of would be OGI Grad D: Oh I may well be Professor F: no TI digits was read in th in read in the studio I believe Grad D: I have not ever listened to TI digits So I do not really know how it compares",A test set of digits data totalling two hours is nearly complete. Digit extraction has been performed on roughly half of this data "Grad C: It only sounds w good when you scream it though So Professor F: I think everybody s a little punchy here today Postdoc E: Well I mean I just wanted to offer that as a possible task because you know if we were to each read his embedded numbers words in sent in sentences cuz it s like an entire sketch he does and I would not take the inflated version So he talks about the woman being `` two derful `` and and a But you know if it were to be deflated just the normal word it would be like a little story that we could read I do not know if it would be useful for comparison but it s embedded numbers Grad D: I think for something like that we would be better off doing like TIMIT Professor F: Well I do not know Well I think the question is what the research is so I mean I presume that the reason that you wanted to have these digits this way is because you wanted to actually do some research looking at the prosodic form here",Future work may involve experimenting with the reading of digits in different prosodic groupings. "Postdoc E: You are right about the backup being pause a bottleneck It s good to think towards scratch PhD G: so these would not be backed up the Grad D: and I will and we will look at your disk and see where to put stuff Grad C: OK Alright I mean I could just you do a DU on it right ? And just see which how much is on each So Grad D: Yep Each partition And you want to use either XA or scratch Well X question mark anything starting with X is scratch Two digits right XA XB XC OK ? Postdoc E: OK So I got a little print out here So three on this side three on this side And I stapled them OK Alright so first of all there was a an interest in the transcribe transcription checking procedures and and I can tell you first to go through the steps although you ve probably seen them as you might imagine when you are dealing with r really c a fair number of words and comment natural speech which means s self repairs and all these other factors that there are lots of things to be s standardized and streamlined and checked on And so I did a bunch of checks and the first thing I did was obviously a spell check And at that point I discovered certain things like `` accommodate `` with one `` M `` that kind of thing And then in addition to that I did an exhaustive listing of the forms in the data file which included n detecting things like f faulty punctuation and things PhD B: I m I m sorry to interrupt you could could I just back up a little bit","Transcription checking procedures were reviewed, and efforts to coordinate the channelization and presegmention of data with the tightening of time bins were discussed." "Postdoc E: So this is where Chuck s overall h architecture comes in where we are going to have a master file of the channelized data there will be scripts that are written to convert it into these t these main two uses and th some scripts will take it down th e into a f a for ta take it to a format that s usable for the recognizer an other scripts will take it to a form that s usable for the for linguistics an and discourse analysis And the implication that that I have is that th the master copy will stay unchanged These will just be things that are generated and e by using scripts When things change then the the script will cham change but the but there will not be stored copies of in different versions of things PhD G: So I guess I would have one request here which is just maybe to make it more robust th that the tag whatever you would choose for this type of `` NUMS `` comment where it s inside the spontaneous speech is different than the tag that you use for the read speech PhD B: Right Right That would argue for changing the other ones to be `` digits `` or something PhD G: that way w if we make a mistake parsing or something we do not see the `` point five `` or or it s not there then we a Just an And actually for things like `` seven eighths `` or people do fractions too I guess you maybe you want one overall tag for sort of that would be similar to that or As long as they are sep as they are different strings that we that will make our p sort of processing more robust Cuz we really will get rid of everything that has the `` NUMS `` string in it PhD B: I suppose what you could do is just make sure that you get rid of everything that has `` curly brace NUMS curly brace `` I mean that would be the Postdoc E: Exactly That was that was my motivation And i these can be changed like I said You know I mean as I said I was considering changing it to `` digits `` And it just i you know it s just a matter of deciding on whatever it is and being sure the scripts know PhD G: It would probably be safer if you are willing to have a separate tag just because then we know for sure And we can also do counts on them without having to do the processing But you are right we could do it this way it it should work PhD B: and it makes it I guess the thing about PhD G: but it it s probably not hard for a person to tell the difference because one s in the context of a you know a transcribed word string Postdoc E: The other thing is you can get really so minute with these things and increase the size of the files and the re and decrease the readability to such an extent by simply something like `` percent `` Now I I could have adopted a similar convention for `` percent `` but somehow percent is not so hard you know ? i It s just when you have these points and you are trying to figure out where the decimal places are And we could always add it later Percent s easy to detect Point however is is a word that has a couple different meanings And you will find both of those in one of these meetings where he s saying `` well the first point I want to make is so and so `` and he goes through four points and also has all these decimals PhD B: So Liz what does the recognizer do what does the SRI recognizer output for things like that ? `` seven point five `` Does it output the word PhD G: `` Seven point five `` PhD B: Right the word `` seven `` ? The number `` seven `` ? The word `` seven `` OK Professor F: So I would so `` I would like I would like to talk about point five `` PhD G: And and actually you know the language it s the same point actually the the p you know the word `` to `` and the word y th `` going to `` and `` to go to `` those are two different `` to s `` and so there s no distinction there It s just just the word `` point `` has every word has only one e one version even if even if it s A actually even like the word `` read `` comment and `` read `` Those are two different words They are spelled the same way right ? And they are still going to be transcribed as READ So I I like the idea of having this in there I just I was a little bit worried that the tag for removing the read speech because i What if we have like `` read letters `` or I do not know Grad D: We might want to just a separate tag that says it s read PhD G: like `` read something `` like `` read `` basically But other than that I it sounds great Grad D: OK ? Are we done ? Postdoc E: Well I wanted to say also regarding the channelized data Grad D: Oh I guess we are not done Postdoc E: that Thilo requested that we ge get some segments done by hand to e e s reduce the size of the time bins wh like was Chuc Chuck was mentioning earlier that that if you if you said `` Oh `` and it was in part of a really long s complex overlapping segment that the same start and end times would be held for that one as for the longer utterances Grad D: We did that for one meeting right so you have that data do not you ? PhD A: that s the training data Postdoc E: And he requested that there be similar samples done for five minute stretches c involving a variety of speakers and overlapping secti sections He gave me he did the very nice he he did some shopping through the data and found segments that would be useful And at this point all four of the ones that he specified have been done In addition the I ve I have the transcribers expanding the amount that they are doing actually So right now I know that as of today we got an extra fifteen minutes of that type and I m having them expand the realm on either side of these places where they ve already started But if if you know and I and he s going to give me some more sections that that he thinks would be useful for this purpose",Transcribers will be given channelized data that has been segmented for speech/non-speech boundaries to determine whether such pre-processing facilitates the transcription process. "Postdoc E: Exactly Thank you And so I do a an exhaustive listing of the forms Actually I will go through this in in order so if if we could maybe wait and stick keep that for a second cuz we are not ready for that Grad D: So on the fifth page seven down Postdoc E: Exactly ! Exactly ! Alright so a spelling check first then an exhaustive listing of the all the forms in the data with the punctuation attached and at that point I pick up things like oh you know word followed by two commas And th and then another check involves being sure that every utterance has an identifiable speaker And if not then that gets checked Then there s this issue of glossing s w so called `` spoken forms `` So there mo for the most part we are keeping it standard wo word level transcription But there s w And that that s done with the assumption that pause pronunciation variants can be handled So for things like `` and `` the fact that someone does not say the `` D `` that s not important enough to capture in the transcription because a a good pronunciation you know model would be able to handle that However things like `` cuz `` where you are lacking an entire very prominent first syllable and furthermore it s a form that s specific to spoken language those are r reasons f for those reasons I I kept that separate and used the convention of using `` CUZ `` for that form however glossing it so that it s possible with the script to plug in the full orthographic form for that one and a couple of others not many So `` want to `` is another one `` going `` `` going to `` is another one with just the assumption again that this th these are things which it s not really fair to a c consider expect that a pronunciation model to handle And Chuck you in you indicated that `` cuz `` is is one of those that s handled in a different way also did not you ? Did I OK So so it might not have been It might not have been you but someone told me that in fact `` cuz `` is treated differently in i you in this context because of that r reason that it s a little bit farther than a pronunciation variant OK so after that let s see PhD B: So that was part of the spell check comment or was that that was after the spell check ? Postdoc E: Well so when I get the exhau So the spell check picks up those words because they are not in the dictionary So it gets `` cuz `` and `` want to `` and that Grad D: And then you gloss them ? Postdoc E: mm Run it through I have a sed You know so I do sed script saying whenever you see `` going to `` you know `` convert it to going to `` you know `` gloss equals quote going to quote `` you know And with all these things being in curly brackets so they are always distinctive OK I also wrote a script which will retrieve anything in curly brackets or anything which I ve classified as an acronym and a pronounced acronym And the way I tag ac pronounced acronyms is that I have underscores between the components So if it s `` ACL `` then it s `` A `` underscore `` C `` underscore `` L `` Grad D: And so so your list here are these ones that actually occurred in the meetings ? Postdoc E: And the th Yes huh OK so now and a PhD G: can I ask a question about the glossing before we go on ? So for a word like `` because `` is it that it s always predictably `` because `` ? I mean is `` CUZ `` always meaning `` because `` ? Postdoc E: Yes but not the reverse So sometimes people will say `` because `` in the meeting and if if they actually said `` because `` then it s written as `` because `` with no w `` cuz `` does not even figure into the equation Professor F: But but in our meetings people do not say `` hey cuz how you doing ? `` PhD G: Beca because Right comment Right so I guess So from the point of view of Postdoc E: That s a good point PhD G: The the only problem is that with for the recognition we we map it to `` because `` and so if we know that `` CUZ `` Grad D: but they have the gloss Postdoc E: Well Don has a script Grad D: You have the gloss form so you always replace it If that s how what you want to do Postdoc E: huh And Don knows this and he s bee he has a glo he has a script that Grad C: I replace the `` cuz `` with `` because `` if it s glossed PhD G: S Right But if it s OK But then there are other glosses that we do not replace right ? Because Postdoc E: Yes And that s why there are different tags on the glosses PhD G: OK So then it s fine Postdoc E: on the different on the different types of comments which we will which we will see in just a second So the pronounceable acronyms get underscores the things in curly brackets are viewed as comments There are comments of four types So this is a good time to introduce that The four types w And maybe we will expand that but the but the comments are of four types mainly right now One of them is the gloss type we just mentioned Grad D: So a are we done with acronyms ? Cuz I had a question on what what this meant Postdoc E: I m still doing the overview I have not actually gotten here yet OK so gloss is things like replacing the full form you with the more abbreviated one to the left then you have if it s there are a couple different types of elements that can happen that are not really properly words and wo some of them are laughs and breathes so we have that s prepended with a v a tag of `` VOC `` And the non vocal ones are like door slams and tappings and that s prepended with a no non vocalization PhD B: So then it just an ending curly brace there or is there something else in there Postdoc E: Oh so i e this would Let s just take one example And then the no non vocalization would be something like a door slam They always end So it s like they are paired curly brackets And then the third type right now is pause m things that fall in the category of comments about what s happening So it could be something like you know `` referring to so and so `` `` talking about such and such `` you know `` looking at so and so `` PhD B: on the middle t So in the first case that gloss applies to the word to the left But in the middle two Th it s not applying to anything right ? Postdoc E: and this gets substituted here Huh No they are events Grad D: Well the `` QUAL `` can be The `` QUAL `` is applying to the left Postdoc E: They are actually They have the status of events PhD B: Right I just meant the middle two ones Postdoc E: Well and actually it is true that with respect to `` laugh `` there s another one which is `` while laughing `` and that is i i An argument could be made for this tur turning that into a qualitative statement because it s talking about the thing that preceded it but at present we have not been coding the exact scope of laughing you know and so to have `` while laughing `` you know that it happened somewhere in there which could well mean that it occurred separately and following or you know including some of the utterances to the left Have not been awfully precise about that but I have here now we are about to get to the to this now I have frequencies So you will see how often these different things occur But the very front page deals with this final c pa aspect of the standardization which has to do with the spoken forms like `` mm `` and `` mm `` and `` ha `` and `` `` and all these different types And someone pointed out to me this might have been Chuck comment about about how a recognizer if it s looking for `` mm hmmm `` with three M s and it s transcribed with two M s that it might that it might increase the error rate which is which would really be a shame because I p I personally w would not be able to make a claim that those are dr dramatically different items So right now I ve standardized across all the existing data with these spoken forms","Transcription checking procedures have been formalized, including a spell check, producing an exhaustive list of forms identified in the data, attributing every utterance to the appropriate speaker ID, glossing spoken forms with their full orthographic counterparts, e.g. 'cuz' and 'because', transcribing acronyms, and encoding comments, i.e. glosses, vocalic and non-vocalic non-speech events, pragmatic cues, and the standardization of spoken forms, e.g. 'mm-hmm'." "Grad D: Right So I mean we would like to take all these various cues right ? So this one might be say Well let me pick a random one Grad E: I have not heard that before Grad D: and say I do not know it could be like This is not the way it really is but let me say that suppose someone mentioned admission fees Ah it takes too long Try let me just say `` Landmark `` If the thing is a landmark you know then there s another thing that says if if it s closed or not at the moment Alright so you have nodes Right ? And the problem that we were having was that you know given N nodes there s `` two to the N `` Given N nodes and furthermore the fact that there s three things here we need to specify `` three times `` `` two to the N `` probabilities Right ? That s assuming these are all binary which f they may not be For example they could be `` time of day `` in which case we could say you know `` Morning afternoon evening night `` So this could be more So it s a lot anyway And that s a lot of probabilities to put here which is kind of a pain So pause Noisy ORs are a way to sort of deal with this Where should I put this ? So the idea is that Let s call these C one C two C three and C four and E for Because and Effect I guess The idea is to have these intermediate nodes Right Well actually the idea first of all is that each of these things has a quote unquote distinguished state which means that this is the state in which we do not really know anything about it So right ? So for example if we do not really know if the thing is a landmark or not Or i if that just does not seem relevant then that would be th sort of the Disting the Distinguish state It s a really you know if there is something for the person talking about the admission fee you know if they did not talk about it that would be the Distinguish state Grad C: S so this is a fanciful way of saying `` default `` ? Grad D: That s just what they the word they used in that paper So the idea is that you have these intermediate nodes right ? E one E two E three and E four ?",The actual number of the inputs in the Bayes-net can create a combinatorial explosion when setting the probabilities. Noisy-OR's can help avoid this by simplifying the probability tables and applying a deterministic function to produce their complete version. "Professor B: So that if you know about it let s say a particular town hall that it s one that is a monument then that would be stored there If you do not you look up the hierarchy Eh so you you you may or So then you would have this little vector of you know Approach Mode or EVA Mode Let s OK so we have the EVA vector for for various kinds of landmarks If you know it for a specific landmark you put it there If you do not you just go up the hierarchy to the first place you find one Grad D: OK So is the idea to put it in the ontology ? Professor B: or link to or but but in any case i View it logically as being in the ontology It s part of what you know about a an object is its EVA vector And if yo As I say if you know about a specific object you put it there This is part of what Dekai was doing So when we get to Wu The e We will see w what he says about that And then if you If it is not there it s higher and if you do not know anything except that it s a b it s it s a building then up at the highest thing you have the pr what amounts to a prior If you do not know anything else about a building you just take whatever your crude approximation is up at that level which might be equal or whatever it is So that s a very pretty relationship between these local vectors and the ontology And it seems to me the obvious thing to do unless we find a reason to do something different Does this make sense to you ? Grad D: So we are but we we are not doing the ontology so we have to get to whoever is doing the you ultimately Professor B: Indeed So that s another thing we are going to need to do is is to either Grad D: we have to get them to Professor B: We are going to need some way to either get a p tag in the ontology or add fields or comment comment some way to associate Or w It may be that all we can do is some of our own hash tables that it Th the th you know there s always a way to do that It s a just a question of Grad A: hash on object name to you know the probabilities or whatever Professor B: i th e Right And so i Grad C: But it s Well it strikes me as a What For If we get the mechanism that will be sort of the wonderful part And then how to make it work is is the second part in the sense that I mean m the guy who was doing the ontology eh eh s ap apologized that i it will take him another through two to three days because they are having really trouble getting the upper level straight and right now The reason is given the craw bet the the the projects that all carry their own taxonomy and on all history they are really trying to build one top level ontology ft that covers all the EML projects and that s sort of a tough cookie a little bit tougher than they figured I could have told them s so But nevertheless it s going to be there by n by next Monday and I will show you what s what some examples from that for towers and stuff And what I do not think is ever going to be in the ontology is sort of you know the likelihood of eh people entering r town halls and looking at town halls and approaching town halls especially since we are b dealing with a case based not an instance based ontology So there will be nothing on on that town hall or on the Berkeley town hall or on the Heidelberg town hall it will just be information on town halls Professor B: Well they they they How ar What are they going to do with instances ? Grad C: Well that s Hhh That s that s al different question I mean th the first they had to make a design question `` do we take ontologies that have instances ? or just one that does not that just has the types ? `` And so since the d decision was on types on a d simply type based we now have to hook it up to instances I mean this is Professor B: But what i What is SmartKom going to do about that ? Cuz they have instances all the time Grad C: but the ontology is really not a SmartKom thing in in and of itself That s more something that I kicked loose in in EML So it s a completely EML thing Professor B: But SmartKom s going to need an ontology Grad C: Yes you a w a lot of people are aware of that Professor B: I understand but is anybody doing anything about it ? OK It s a political problem We will not worry about it Grad C: No but th the r eh I th I still think that there is enough information in there For example whether OK So th it will know about the twenty object types there are in the world Let s assume there are only twenty object types in this world And it will know if any of those have institutional meanings So in a sense `` I `` used as Institutions for some s in some sense or the other Which makes them enterable Right ? In a sense Professor B: Anyway So we may have to This is with the whole thing we may have to build another data stru Conceptually we know what should be done When we see what people have done it may turn out that the easiest thing to do is to build a a separate thing that that just pools i i Like i i it it may be that the the instance w That we have to build our own instance things that with their types Grad D: it s Right we can just assume Professor B: and then it goes off to the ontology once you have its type So we build a little data structure And so what we would do in that case is in our instance gadget have our E V And if we d there is not one we would get the type and then have the E V As for the type So we would have our own little EVA tree And then for other vectors that we need So we would have our own little things so that whenever we needed one we would just use the ontology to get the type and then would hash or whatever we do to say `` ah ! If it s that type of thing and we want its EVA vector pppt pppt ! comment it s that `` So I I think we can handle that And then But the combination functions and whether we can put those in Java Bayes and all that sort of stuff is is the bigger deal I think that s where we have to get technically clever Grad A: We could just steal the classes in JavaBayes and then interface to them with our own code Professor B: Well I me ye nonvocalsound eh the Grad D: That requires understanding the classes in JavaBayes I guess Professor B: I mean it s e e e e e cute I mean you ve been around enough to I mean Just ? I mean there s this huge package which which may or may not be consistent and you know But we could look at it Grad A: Well I was j OK Professor B: It s b It It s an inter sort of a kind of a it The thing is it s kind of an interpreter and i i it expects its data structures to be in a given form and if you say `` hey we are going to make a different kind of data structure to stick in there `` Grad A: Well no but that just means there s a protocol right ? That you could Professor B: It may or may not I do not know That s the question is `` to what extent does it allow us to put in these G functions ? `` And I do not know Grad A: Well no but I mean What I the So you could have four different Bayes nets that you are running and then run your own write your own function that would take the output of those four and make your own `` G function `` is what I was saying Professor B: that s fine if it s if it comes only at the end But suppose you want it embedded ? Grad A: Well then you would have to break all of your Bayes nets into smaller Bayes nets with all the Professor B: Oh that that s a truly horrible way to do d it One would hope you bet But at that point you may say `` hey Java Bayes is not the only package in town Let s see if there s another package that s eh more civilized about this `` Now Srini is worth talking to on this","Object representations will include an EVA vector. This can be incorporated in the database entry for a particular building or inherited from the ontology of the building type. As the project evolves, further enrichment of the ontology (actions, linguistic features) will be necessary." "Professor B: Alright Anyway So before we get started with the technical part I just want to review what I think is happening with the our data collection PhD F: We are all switched on Professor B: So probably after today that should not come up in this meeting Th this this is s should be i am it is not There s another thing going on of gathering data and that s pretty much independent of this But I just want to make sure we are all together on this What we think is going to happen is that in parallel starting about now we are going to get Fey to where you are working with me and Robert draft a note that we are going to send out to various CogSci c and other classes saying `` here s an opportunity to be a subject Contact Fey `` And then there will be a certain number of hours during the week which she will be available and we will bring in people roughly how many Robert ? We d Do we know ? Grad C: fifty was our sort of our first Professor B: OK So we are looking for a total of fifty people not necessarily by any means all students but we will s we will start with with that In parallel with that we are going to need to actually do the script And so I guess there s a plan to have a meeting Friday afternoon with Jane and maybe Liz and whoever on actually getting the script worked out But what I would like to do if it s O K is to s to as I say start the recruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week The week after that s Spring Break and maybe we will look for them some subjects next door Grad C: Also Fey will not be here during spring break Professor B: Oh OK then we will not do it OK So that s easy So is Is that make sense to everybody ? Grad C: Also F both Fey and I will do something of which I may eh kindly ask you to to do the same thing which is we going to check out our social infrastructures for possible subjects Meaning kid children s gymnastic classes pre school parents and so forth They also sometimes have flexible schedules So if you happen to be sort of in a non student social setting and you know people who may be interested in being subjects We also considered using the Berkeley High School and their teachers maybe and get them interested in stuff","As the data collection is about to begin, there are some minor changes to be done in the design of the experiment, the script and the permission forms. Subjects can be recruited either from within the university or through other social circles." "Professor B: Oh The high school s a great idea Grad C: So But I I will just make a first draft of the note the `` write up `` note send it to you and Fey and then Professor B: And why do not you also copy Jane on it ? Grad C: And Are we Have we concurred that these these forms are sufficient for us and necessary ? Professor B: th I think they are necessary This The permission form there has to be one and I think we are just going to use it as it is and pause Grad C: N You happy with that ? Professor B: Well There s one tricky part about they have the right I The last paragraph comment `` if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set `` OK ? Now that we had to be included for this other one which might have meetings you know about something In this case it does not really make sense so what I would like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiver saying `` I do not want to see the final transcript `` And if they do not If they say `` no I m not willing to sign that `` then we will show them the final transcript But That so we might actually S i Jane may say that `` you know you can not do this `` `` on the same form we need a separate form `` But anyway I would I would I would like to e e add an a little thi eh a thing for them to initial saying `` nah do I do not want to see the final transcript `` But other than that that s one s been approved this really is the same project rec you know And so forth So I think we just go with it Grad C: OK So much for the data except that with Munich everything is fine now They are going to transcribe They are also going to translate the German data from the TV and cinema stuff for Andreas So They are they all seem to be happy now with that So w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ?",The team wanted the data participants to minimize their contact with their data. They wanted them to sign a waiver first not to view the transcript by default only allowing them to view it. "Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you Mr Chair and greetings from SaanichGulf Islands The petition I am presenting today is petition e2509 which has been duly certified It relates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months In this pandemic there have often been very underpaid and overworked frontline workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more and who are of course deemed essential services The petitioners have asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has been deemed an essential service to no less than 20 an hour in light of their service and the risks they are taking for all of us","The petitioners had asked the government to implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who were in contact with the general public and working in what had been deemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they were taking for all Canadians." "Mr. Blake Richards (BanffAirdrie, CPC): May 24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canadas tourism industry This is a very important industry and this years Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to the governmentmandated lockdowns Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses to sufficiently prepare to reopen This includes rehiring employees ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans Operators do not need to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected I anticipate next years celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada The 18 million Canadians whose jobs depend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it Bonne semaine to tourism","Mr. Blake Richards suggested that Tourism Week in Canada, the annual celebration was a time to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry. The ongoing coronavirus crisis had closed provincial and international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast had been among the first and hardest hit due to the government-mandated lockdowns. The 1.8 million Canadians whose jobs depended on a thriving tourism sector were counting on it." "Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): Mr Chair it is a great honour to speak to the House of Commons today from Whitehorse Yukon here on the traditional territory of the Kwanlin Dn First Nation and the Taan Kwchn Council As a great historic Canadian event last week Yukon became home to Canadas first university north of 60 Yukon University will provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home expand our research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north I encourage all students living in the northern half of Canada to look at the many programs and degrees at Yukon University to continue their studiesin some cases this year virtuallyby remaining in the north I want to congratulate the staff of Yukon College who spent the last decade working towards this transition and especially the outgoing president Karen Barnes I wish her all the best in her retirement Thank you merci mahsi cho and sga senl","Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.) suggested that as a great historic Canadian event last week, Yukon became home to Canada's first university north of 60. Yukon University would provide Yukoners with educational opportunities closer to home, expand the research capabilities and expertise on the Arctic and climate change and allow those who want to study northern and first nations governance to do so in the north." "Ms. Anju Dhillon (DorvalLachineLaSalle, Lib.): MrChair I would like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from the bottom of my heart for their invaluable assistance in the longterm care facilities Their deployment came at a critical time when many seniors desperately needed them Through the observations and testimonies of these members we saw the extent of the nightmare that many seniors had endured for a long time These are human beings who could not fend for themselves They were treated with profound cruelty and carelessness Among many other loathsome details they were left to starve were abused and lived in filth their cries of anguish ignored They were tormented and left in their agony There is no excuse for this No one ever deserves to be treated the way they were I am talking about humanity about compassion and mercy It is up to each and every one of us to make sure no elderly person is ever hurt in this vile manner again I take this moment to honour these victims","Ms. Anju Dhillon would like to thank the members of the Canadian Armed Forces for their invaluable assistance in the long-term care facilities. Since many seniors, the most vulnerable ones desperately needed them and they had offered great assistance." "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you MrChair The Canadian Armed Forces report showed the relationship between equipment costs and the lack of care for our seniors Will the government admit today that there is no room for profit in the care of our seniors ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair that is a very important question and I would like to thank the member for asking it I think this is a historic week All Canadians have seen what is happening in Ontario and Quebec We The Chair: Order We will go back to MrSingh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair experts and advocates have all pointed out that in the forprofit model of care for seniors there is more emphasis on the bottom line than on care for seniors Will the Liberal government admit that there is no place for profit when it comes to the care of our seniors ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I want to start by saying one thing and that is to publicly thank in this House BrigadierGeneral Conrad Mialkowski and his team for compiling the assessment that they did of longterm care homes in Ontario They acted with courage They acted with compassion What they did is historic and we all need to The Chair: We will now go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The Canadian Forces of course always deserve our thanks However they do not need our thanks right now they need to see some action on what they have pointed out The government owns Revera the secondlargest longterm care provider in Canada It is for profit and it is facing a 50million lawsuit for negligence What is the government doing to protect seniors in the longterm care homes that they own ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I agree with the member opposite that after what we have learned this week all options must be on the table when it comes to how care for our elders will be provided in Canada in the future I think it is clear to us all that rootandbranch reform is necessary We need to act with speed but not haste and work with our provincial partners Mr. Jagmeet Singh: If all the options are on the table will the Liberal government commit to removing profit from longterm care particularly in the Revera longterm care homes the secondlargest number in Canada which the government owns ? Will it commit to removing profit from longterm care ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: What we will commit to doand I hope with the support of all members of this Houseis work very carefully and also very urgently in close cooperation with our provincial partners under whose jurisdiction this falls to ensure that these heartwrenching reports mean that as a country we turn the page","Hon. Chrystia Freeland suggested that after what it had been learned this week, all options must be on the table when it came to how care for the elders would be provided in Canada in the future. Currently, it is clear to all that root-and-branch reform was necessary. All participants would need to act with speed but not haste, and work with the provincial partners." "Mrs. Karen Vecchio (ElginMiddlesexLondon, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Today I join critics from the NDP the Bloc and the Green Party who deal with womens issues and gender equality to ask where the 75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking has gone Last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that help vulnerable women and girls so the simple question is this : Where is the money ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr Chair let me begin by thanking the member for that very important question I agree that human trafficking which is a crime of coercion and exploitation is unacceptable and we have to ensure that we provide the supports necessary to the victims of this crime As the member knows we have launched a new comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking and we have incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that the focus","Mrs. Karen Vecchio joined critics from the NDP, the Bloc and the Green Party who delt with women's issues and gender equality to ask where the $75 million toward sexual exploitation and human trafficking had gone. As a result of financial shortage, last week organizations had to close their doors and the programs that helped vulnerable women and girls. Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness) introduced that the government had launched a new, comprehensive national strategy to combat human trafficking, and had incorporated a new pillar in that strategy of empowerment to ensure that focus." "Mr. David Sweet: Yesterday the rubberstamp National Peoples Congress passed the national security bill undermining Hong Kongs autonomy and strengthening a grip of the Communist Party of China Will the Prime Minister condemn this law ? Hon. Mary Ng: Canada with our international partners in the YOUS Australia and the YOUK made a joint statement in which we are expressing our deep concern regarding Chinas imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong Mr. David Sweet: Canada has an admirable history of doing the right thing and helping when the situation is bleak The Suez Canal Cyprus the fall of apartheid child and maternal health in Africa and Afghanistan are examples in my lifetime of how Canada has weighed in significantly Why is the government letting down Hong Kong ? Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong we have a vested interest in Hong Kongs stability and prosperity the foundations of which are Hong Kongs relative autonomy and basic freedoms Canada will always support and promote freedom of speech freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world","Hon. Mary Ng suggested that Canada,with our international partners in the U.S., Australia and the U.K., made a joint statement in which countries were expressing deep concern regarding China's imposition of a new security law for Hong Kong. Moreover, with hundreds of thousands of Canadians living in Hong Kong, the government had a vested interest in Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, the foundations of which were Hong Kong's relative autonomy and basic freedoms. Canada would always support and promote freedom of speech, freedom of expression and freedoms of the press around the world." "Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Thank you MrChair Some hon members : Ha ha ! Hon Steven Blaney : I am pleased to represent the city of Lvis because it is a privilege MrChair It is the city where Alphonse Desjardins who spearheaded the largest financial cooperative movement was born I hope you will not take that away from my time My question is for the Minister of Employment Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion On April8 the minister announced measures for the Canada summer jobs program We thought it was to improve the program but can the minister confirm that the budget remained the same between April7 and9 ? Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion): Mr Chair I can confirm that we have increased the wage subsidies for Canada student jobs We have added flexibilities including the ability to have parttime work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year That said the budget was not changed It remains at 70000 job placements for 70000 students with 100 of them being subsidized at 100","Hon. Carla Qualtrough (Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion) said that it could be confirmed that the government would increase the wage subsidies for Canada student jobs. The program had added flexibilities, including the ability to have part-time work and the ability to have the jobs extended until February of next year. That said, the budget was not changed. It remains at 70,000 job placements for 70,000 students, with 100% of them being subsidized at 100%." "Hon. Steven Blaney: The Canada emergency student benefit does not encourage young people to go to work and employers have difficulty hiring them Yet they had applied for the Canada summer jobs program Why not enhance the Canada summer jobs program ? Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr Chair I am sure the member opposite is not implying that offering young people income support that they take out of necessity will make them not want to work Young people want to work They want to serve in their communities That is why we are creating these additional jobs beyond the Canada summer jobs program That is why we have increased the flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program It is so we can maximize these programs","Hon. Steven Blaney questioned that the Canada emergency student benefit did not encourage young people to go to work, and employers had difficulty hiring them. Yet they had applied for the Canadasummer jobs program. Hon. Carla Qualtrough ensured the committee that the member opposite was not implying that offering young people income support that they took out of necessity would make them not want to work. The reason why the government was creating these additional jobs beyond the Canada summer jobs program was the young people wanted to serve the community." "Mr. Luc Berthold: Mr Chair could the infrastructure minister explain to Canadians how it is better to give 1 million in bonuses to the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank than to invest in roads schools hospitals and longterm care homes ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair I am very happy to explain to the member opposite that we are doing just that Perhaps he is not aware of our 33 billion infrastructure program in which we are working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that is making a huge difference including projects in the members riding We are going to continue doing that Mr. Luc Berthold: MrChair she is not answering the question at all On April3 the previous president of the Canada Infrastructure Bank left his position for reasons that remain unclear How much did he receive in bonuses for his years at the helm of the Canada Infrastructure Bank ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: MrChair the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marks a new phase in the development of the bank We are working to build a modern public infrastructure to create jobs and to make Canada more competitive internationally","Hon. Catherine McKenna started by introducing the $33 billion infrastructure program in which the government was working directly with the Government of Quebec to build infrastructure that was making a huge difference, including projects in the member's riding. Moreover, the change of management at the Canada Infrastructure Bank marked a new phase in the development of the bank. The government was working to build a modern, public infrastructure, to create jobs, and to make Canada more competitive internationally." "Mrs. Tracy Gray (KelownaLake Country, CPC): Mr Chair the COVID19 pandemic has shown how important it is to be able to move our goods interprovincially Christian Buhagiar of Supply Chain Canada called for the government to revisit interprovincial trade regulations to ensure we can quickly move production and distribution from one region to another during times of emergency Will the government commit to immediately examine all our trade barriers that can affect interprovincial trade of essential goods due to COVID19 ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I would like to thank the member opposite for her excellent point Our government is very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade It is something that we have been working on with the premiers Obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks but it is a priority It is the right thing to do Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr Chair the federal government has a regulatory reconciliation table as part of the Canada free trade agreement focusing on breaking down interprovincial trade barriers Due to COVID19 it has been announced that deadlines for all of these items may be delayed What is the government doing to ensure there will not be delays on these items ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair it is absolutely right and appropriate for first ministers who have been meeting every week for more than two months to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus However I agree with the member opposite that we need to lift barriers to interprovincial trade That is something we are committed to doing and to working on with the premiers","Hon. Chrystia Freeland introduced that the government was very committed to removing barriers to interprovincial trade. It was something that we have been working on with the premiers. Obviously the coronavirus has taken precedence in recent weeks, but it's a priority. It was the right thing to do. The government had been meeting every week for more than two months, to be focusing on the urgent threat posed by the coronavirus to ensure that there would be no delay." "Mr. Daniel Blaikie (ElmwoodTranscona, NDP): Thank you very much Mr Chair I want to begin by indicating that I will be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley Across the country a lot of Canadians are preparing to go back to work right now and some employers are doing a good job of ensuring that there is a safe workplace with the right procedures and the right equipment Unfortunately some employers are not For Canadians who are employed by them that means making a really tough decision between going back to a workplace where they do not feel safe and which may present a threat to their families or communities and staying home and worrying about not being paid because they are not at work or because they will lose access to the CERB I am wondering what guidance the federal government has for people who feel that their workplace is not safe at this time and that their employer has not done its due diligence and are concerned about losing access to the CERB Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Mr Chair we are very concerned about the safety of our workplaces and we do not want workers to feel unsafe as they go back to work However we do want people to go back to work We are working very closely with the provinces The Minister of Health is working on occupational health and safety guidelines The Minister of Labour is working with her colleagues We are taking an allofgovernment approach to ensure that workers are safe that they do not have to put their lives or the health of their families in jeopardy and that we can support them in these efforts","Mr. Daniel Blaikie asked about the government's guidance towards people who felt that their workplace was not safe at this time and that their employer had not done its due diligence, and were concerned about losing access to the CERB. Hon.Carla Qualtrough suggested that the government were working very closely with the provinces on occupational health and safety guidelines and taking an all-of-government approach to ensure that workers were safe and that the government could support them in these efforts." "Professor B: What was the update ? PhD A: What was the update ? So there is th then the all the new features that go in The noise suppression the re synthesis of speech after suppression These are the PhD E: Is the the CVS mechanism working pause well ? Are are people up at OGI grabbing code via that ? PhD D: I do not think I do not think PhD A: I do not know if they use it but PhD D: I I do not think anybody up there is like pause working on it right now Professor B: I think it more likely that what it means is that when Sunil is up there he will grab it PhD D: So right now nobody s working on Aurora there Professor B: They are They are working on a different task But what will happen is is he will go back up there and Pratibha will come back from from the east coast And and and I guess actually after Eurospeech for a little bit he will go up there too So actually everybody who s working on it comment will be up there for at least a little while So they will remotely access it from there PhD E: So has Has anybody tried remotely accessing the CVS using SSH ? PhD A: I do not know if Hari did that or You d PhD D: I comment can actually do it today I mean I can just log into PhD E: Have you tried it yet ? PhD D: No I did not So I I will try it today PhD A: Actually I I tried wh while when I installed the pause repository I tried from Belgium I logged in there and I tried pause to import PhD E: ? It worked good ? PhD A: But it s So right now it s the mechanism with SSH I do not pause s I did not set up You can also set up a CVS server pause on a new port It s like well pause a main server or d You can do a CVS server PhD E: Right Then that s using the CVS password mechanism and all that PhD A: But I did not do that because I was not sure about pause security problems I I would have to PhD E: So w when you came in from Belgian comment Belgium using SSH was it asking you for your own pause password into ICSI ? So if yo you can only do that if you have an account at ICSI ?","The team had pushed their code and was curious to know if the CVS system was working well. It was, at least from Belgium. Other team members needed to come back for the team to complete a few tasks." "PhD E: So has Has anybody tried remotely accessing the CVS using SSH ? PhD A: I do not know if Hari did that or You d PhD D: I comment can actually do it today I mean I can just log into PhD E: Have you tried it yet ? PhD D: No I did not So I I will try it today PhD A: Actually I I tried wh while when I installed the pause repository I tried from Belgium I logged in there and I tried pause to import PhD E: ? It worked good ? PhD A: But it s So right now it s the mechanism with SSH I do not pause s I did not set up You can also set up a CVS server pause on a new port It s like well pause a main server or d You can do a CVS server PhD E: Right Then that s using the CVS password mechanism and all that PhD A: But I did not do that because I was not sure about pause security problems I I would have to PhD E: So w when you came in from Belgian comment Belgium using SSH was it asking you for your own pause password into ICSI ? So if yo you can only do that if you have an account at ICSI ? Cuz there is an a way to set up anonymous CVS right ? PhD A: you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a CVS server but then you can access it you you can set up priorities You can access them and mostly if you if y the set the server is set up like this PhD E: OK Because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous CVS and I m just wondering I mean for our transcripts we may want to do that","While remote CVS access seemed to be working, the team was unsure about setting up a CVS server on a new port. That required a password mechanism. But the team thought an anonymous CVS might be good to store transcripts as it relied on open source software." "PhD E: Are are people up at OGI grabbing code via that ? PhD D: I do not think I do not think PhD A: I do not know if they use it but PhD D: I I do not think anybody up there is like pause working on it right now Professor B: I think it more likely that what it means is that when Sunil is up there he will grab it PhD D: So right now nobody s working on Aurora there Professor B: They are They are working on a different task But what will happen is is he will go back up there and Pratibha will come back from from the east coast","The team wanted to know if OGI was using CVS to access the code. It seemed that they were not. No one there was working on Aurora. Though, they were expecting Sunil to grab it and start working on Aurora once he returned." "Professor B: But the other thing is that even though it s months away it s starting to seem to me now like November fifteenth is right around the corner And if they have not decided things like this like what the parameters are going to be for this when `` deciding `` is not just somebody deciding I mean in fact there should be some understanding behind the deciding which means some experiments and and so forth It it it seems pretty tight to me PhD E: So wha what s the significance of November fifteenth ? Professor B: That s when the evaluation is So so after But you know they may even decide in the end to push it off It would not you know entirely surprise me But due to other reasons like some people are going away I m I m hoping it s not pushed off for a l a long while That would be put us in an awkward position But Anyway Great I think that will be helpful There s there s not anybody OGI currently who s who s working with this and and PhD E: Is is this part of the evaluation just a small part or ho how important is this to the overall ? Professor B: I I think it s it s it depends how badly you do I mean I think that it it is PhD E: This is one of those things that will be debated afterwards ? Professor B: Well I mean it s it s Conceptually it my impression again you guys correct me if I m wrong but pause my impression is that they want it as a double check That you have not come across you have not invented features which are actually going to do badly for a a significantly different task particularly one with larger vocabulary And but it s not the main emphasis I mean the truth is most of the applications they are looking at are pretty small vocabulary So it s it s a double check So they will probably assign it some sort of low weight","The professor informed the team that the evaluation was on November 13. He encouraged the team to run experiments to learn which factors were the most important. The team was concerned about how the evaluation would be weighted, but they did not expect it to be significantly different. There was a chance that the evaluation would be pushed." "PhD D: I I think they are still tuning something on that So they are like d they are varying different parameters like the insertion penalty and other stuff and then seeing what s the performance PhD E: Are those going to be parameters that are frozen nobody can change ? Or ? PhD D: w I guess there is time during which people are going to make suggestions PhD E: Oh but everybody s going to have to use the same values PhD D: So these sugges these this period during which people are going to make suggestions is to know whether it is actually biased towards any set of features or Professor B: so I th th certainly the thing that I would want to know about is whether we get really hurt on in insertion penalty language model scaling sorts of things","The Aurora staff was tinkering around with various parameters, like the insertion penalty. The professor expressed interest in knowing what the exact penalties were to make decision about the team's models." "PhD E: Mm So is this ? Guenter was putting a bunch of Wall Street Journal data on our disks So that s the data that we will be running on ? Professor B: So pause we have the data just not the recognizer OK PhD E: So this test may take quite a while to run then May judging by the amount of data that he was putting on Professor B: well there s training and test right ? PhD E: I I guess I m not sure Professor B: No I mean if it s like the other things there s there s data for training the H M Ms and and data for testing it So I would not So it it s So training the recognizer but But I think it s trained on clean and Is it trained on clean and and test on ?",PhD E informed the team that Guenter was putting the Wall Street Journal data on the team's disks. There was a lot of data so it would take some time to run the models. "Professor B: Somebody else should run this I m sick of being the one to sort of go through and say `` Well what do you think about this ? `` You want to ? PhD F: Should we take turns ? You want me to run it today ? Professor B: Why do not you run it today ? OK PhD F: OK OK Let s see maybe we should just get a list of items things that we should talk about I guess there s the usual pause updates everybody going around and saying you know what they are working on the things that happened the last week But aside from that is there anything in particular that anybody wants to bring up for today ? No ? OK So why do not we just around and people can give updates do you want to start Stephane ? PhD C: Alright Well the first thing maybe is that the p Eurospeech paper is accepted PhD F: This is what what do you what s in the paper there ? PhD C: So it s the paper that describe basically the system that were proposed for the pause Aurora PhD F: The one that we s we submitted the last round ? PhD C: So and the fff comment comments seems from the reviewer are good So PhD F: Where where s it going to be this year ? PhD C: It s Aalborg in Denmark And it s Mmm Then whhh well I ve been working on on t mainly on on line normalization this week I ve been trying different slightly slightly different approaches the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the time constant second thing is the training of on line normalization with two different means one mean for the silence and one for the speech and so I have two recursions which are controlled by the probability of the voice activity detector Mmm This actually do not s does not seem to help although it does not hurt So But well both pause on line normalization approach seems equivalent Well they PhD F: Are the means pretty different pause for the two ? PhD C: They can be very different Mm","PhD C informed the team that the Eurospeech paper had been accepted and the conference would take place in Aalborg Denmark in September. The team was making progress on on-line normalization, taking two approaches." "PhD C: Mmm Then whhh well I ve been working on on t mainly on on line normalization this week I ve been trying different slightly slightly different approaches the first thing is trying to play a little bit again with the time constant second thing is the training of on line normalization with two different means one mean for the silence and one for the speech and so I have two recursions which are controlled by the probability of the voice activity detector Mmm This actually do not s does not seem to help although it does not hurt So But well both pause on line normalization approach seems equivalent Well they PhD F: Are the means pretty different pause for the two ? PhD C: They can be very different Mm Professor B: So do you maybe make errors in different places ? Different kinds of errors ? PhD C: I did not look more closely It might be Mm Well eh there is one thing that we can observe is that the mean are more different for for C zero and C one than for the other coefficients And And it the C one is There are strange strange thing happening with C one is that when you have different kind of noises the mean for the the silence portion is can be different And So when you look at the trajectory of C one it s has a strange shape and I was expecting th the s that these two mean helps especially because of the the strange C ze C one shape which can like yo you can have a trajectory for the speech and then when you are in the silence it goes somewhere but if the noise is different it goes somewhere else So which would mean that if we estimate the mean based on all the signal even though we have frame dropping but we do not frame ev drop everything but this can hurts the estimation of the mean for speech and Mmm comment But I still have to investigate further I think a third thing is that instead of t having a fixed time constant I try to have a time constant that s smaller at the beginning of the utterances to adapt more quickly to the r something that s closer to the right mean T t And then this time constant increases and I have a threshold that well if it s higher than a certain threshold I keep it to this threshold to still adapt the mean when if the utterance is long enough to to continue to adapt after like one second or Mmm well this does not help neither but this does not hurt So well It seems pretty PhD F: Was not there some experiment you were going to try where you did something differently for each I do not know whether it was each mel band or each FFT bin or someth There was something you were going to comment some parameter you were going to vary depending on the frequency I do not know if that was PhD C: I guess it was I do not know No you Maybe it s this this idea of having different pause on line normalization tunings for the different MFCC s PhD F: I I thought Morgan you brought it up a couple meetings ago And then it was something about some and then somebody said `` it does seem like you know C zero is the one that s you know the major one `` or s I can not remember exactly what it was now PhD C: Mmm There actually S it s very important to normalize C zero and pause much less to normalize the other coefficients And actu well at least with the current on line normalization scheme And we I think we kind of know that normalizing C one does not help with the current scheme And and In my idea I I was thinking that the the the reason is maybe because of these funny things that happen between speech and silence which have different means But maybe it s not so so easy to Professor B: I I really would like to suggest looking a little bit at the kinds of errors I know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much but sometimes but but just seeing that each of these things did not make things better may not be enough It may be that they are making them better in some ways and worse in others or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions or or you know helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case And if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that PhD C: Alright Mmm W So that s it I think for the on line normalization I ve been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding and mmm as a first experiment I think I Well what I did is t is to take to measure the average no the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold Well this for each mel band Then put a threshold that s fifteen DB below well a couple of DB below this maximum and Actually it was not a threshold it was just adding noise So I was adding a white noise energy that s fifteen DB below the maximum energy of the utterance And When we look at at the MFCC that result from this they are pause a lot more smoother when we compare like a channel zero and channel one utterance so a clean and the same noisy utterance well there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two And And the result that we have in term of speech recognition actually it s not it s not worse it s not better neither but it s kind of surprising that it s not worse because basically you add noise that s fifteen DB just fifteen DB below pause the maximum energy PhD F: So why does that m pause smooth things out ? I do not I do not understand that Professor B: Well there s less difference Right ? PhD C: It s I think it s whitening This the portion that are more silent as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy it whitens everything and and the high energy portion of the speech do not get much affected anyway by the other noise And as the noise you add is the same is pause the shape it s also the same So they have the trajectory are very very similar And and Professor B: So I mean again if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise you would you know given enough training data you do not do b do badly The reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because pause it s different in training and test Even if the general kind is the same the exact instances are different And and so when you whiten it then it s like you the the only noise to to first order the only th noise that you have is white noise and you ve added the same thing to training and test PhD F: So would that pause be similar to like doing the smoothing then over time or ? Professor B: Well it s a kind of smoothing PhD C: I think it s I think it s different It s it s something that that affects more or less the silence portions because Well anyway the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the Aurora database If if you compare th the two shut channels of SpeechDat Car during speech portion it s n n n the MFCC are not very different They are very different when energy s lower like during fricatives or during speech pauses And Professor B: but you are still getting more recognition errors which means that the differences even though they look like they are not so big are are hurting your recognition",PhD C told the team about two approaches to on-line normalization. On was using a time constant and the other was using different means for silence and speech. But the means were not behaving as expected. Addition of white noise made it such that the important difference between the means disappeared. "Professor B: I I really would like to suggest looking a little bit at the kinds of errors I know you can get lost in that and go forever and not see too much but sometimes but but just seeing that each of these things did not make things better may not be enough It may be that they are making them better in some ways and worse in others or increasing insertions and decreasing deletions or or you know helping with noisy case but hurting in quiet case And if you saw that then maybe you it would something would occur to you of how to deal with that PhD C: Alright Mmm W So that s it I think for the on line normalization I ve been playing a little bit with some kind of thresholding and mmm as a first experiment I think I Well what I did is t is to take to measure the average no the maximum energy of s each utterance and then put a threshold Well this for each mel band Then put a threshold that s fifteen DB below well a couple of DB below this maximum and Actually it was not a threshold it was just adding noise So I was adding a white noise energy that s fifteen DB below the maximum energy of the utterance And When we look at at the MFCC that result from this they are pause a lot more smoother when we compare like a channel zero and channel one utterance so a clean and the same noisy utterance well there is almost no difference between the cepstral coefficients of the two And And the result that we have in term of speech recognition actually it s not it s not worse it s not better neither but it s kind of surprising that it s not worse because basically you add noise that s fifteen DB just fifteen DB below pause the maximum energy PhD F: So why does that m pause smooth things out ? I do not I do not understand that Professor B: Well there s less difference Right ? PhD C: It s I think it s whitening This the portion that are more silent as you add a white noise that are has a very high energy it whitens everything and and the high energy portion of the speech do not get much affected anyway by the other noise And as the noise you add is the same is pause the shape it s also the same So they have the trajectory are very very similar And and Professor B: So I mean again if you trained in one kind of noise and tested in the same kind of noise you would you know given enough training data you do not do b do badly The reason that we d that we have the problems we have is because pause it s different in training and test Even if the general kind is the same the exact instances are different And and so when you whiten it then it s like you the the only noise to to first order the only th noise that you have is white noise and you ve added the same thing to training and test PhD F: So would that pause be similar to like doing the smoothing then over time or ? Professor B: Well it s a kind of smoothing PhD C: I think it s I think it s different It s it s something that that affects more or less the silence portions because Well anyway the sp the portion of speech that ha have high energy are not ch a lot affected by the noises in the Aurora database If if you compare th the two shut channels of SpeechDat Car during speech portion it s n n n the MFCC are not very different They are very different when energy s lower like during fricatives or during speech pauses And Professor B: but you are still getting more recognition errors which means that the differences even though they look like they are not so big are are hurting your recognition","The professor suggested delving deep into the different types of errors in the difference between silence and speech means. He thought that training and testing in the same kind of white noise would be an effective strategy. In his opinion, the differences were hurting the recognition, even though they were not too big." "PhD F: How about you Barry ? Grad A: still working on my my quals preparation stuff so I m I m thinking about starting some cheating experiments to determine the the relative effectiveness of some intermediate categories that I want to classify So for example if I know where voicing occurs and everything I would do a phone phone recognition experiment somehow putting in the the the perfect knowledge that I have about voicing So in particular I was thinking in in the hybrid framework just taking those LNA files and setting to zero those probabilities that that these phones are not voicing So say like I know this particular segment is voicing I would say go into the corresponding LNA file and zonk out the the posteriors for those phonemes that are not voiced and then see what kinds of improvements I get And so this would be a useful thing to know in terms of like which which which of these categories are are good for speech recognition So that s I hope to get those those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in July PhD F: So do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? Grad A: I I I was thinking OK so just set to set to some really low number the the non voiced phones Right ? And then renormalize PhD F: Cool That will be really interesting to see you know So then you are going to feed the those into pause some standard recognizer wh are you going to do digits Grad A: m well I m going to f work with TIMIT PhD F: or ? With TIMIT OK Grad A: TIMIT phone recognition with TIMIT PhD F: Oh so then you will feed those Sorry So where do the outputs of the net go into if you are doing phone recognition ? Grad A: Oh the outputs of the net go into the standard h ICSI hybrid recognizer So maybe Chronos PhD F: An and you are going to the you are going to do phone recognition with that ? Grad A: or Phone recognition Right right So And another thing would be to extend this to digits or something where I can look at whole words And I would be able to see not just like phoneme events but inter phoneme events So like this is from a stop to to a vo a vocalic segment You know so something that is transitional in nature So that s that s it PhD F: Let s see I have not done a whole lot on anything related to this this week I ve been focusing mainly on Meeting Recorder stuff So I guess I will just pass it on to Dave Grad G: OK Well in my lunch talk last week I I said I would tried phase normalization and gotten garbage results using that l long term mean subtraction approach It turned out there was a bug in my Matlab code So I tried it again and the results were were better I got intelligible speech back But they still were not as good as just subtracting the magnitude the log magnitude means And also I ve been talking to Andreas and Thilo about the SmartKom language model and about coming up with a good model for far mike use of the SmartKom system So I m going to be working on implementing this mean subtraction approach in the far mike system for the SmartKom system I mean And one of the experiments we are going to do is we are going to train the a Broadcast News net which is because that s what we ve been using so far and adapt it on some other data An Andreas wants to use data that resembles read speech like pause these digit readings because he feels that the SmartKom system interaction is not going to be exactly conversational",Grad A was working on cheating experiments to study classification of phones for his qualifying exam. Grad G fixed a bug in his Matlab code for phase normalization and started receiving better results. Professor B: The big one takes a while That takes two three weeks So but you know you can get I do not know if you even want to run the big one in the in the final system cuz you know it takes a little while to run it So you can scale it down by I m sorry it was two three weeks for training up for the large Broadcast News test set training set I do not know how much you would be training on i so if you trained on half as much and made the net half as big then it would be one fourth pause the amount of time and it would be nearly as good So Also I guess we had we ve had these little di discussions I guess you ha have not had a chance to work with it too much about about m other ways of taking care of the phase So I mean I I guess that was something I could say would be that we ve talked a little bit about you just doing it all with complex arithmetic and and not not doing the polar representation with magnitude and phase But it looks like there s ways that one could potentially just work with the complex numbers and and and in principle get rid of the effects of the average complex spectrum But,The professor thought that the Broadcast News net could be scaled down. The big one took two to three weeks. Phase normalization experiments relied on it. He also suggested that the math can be simplified to just complex numbers. "Grad A: and then see what kinds of improvements I get And so this would be a useful thing to know in terms of like which which which of these categories are are good for speech recognition So that s I hope to get those those experiments done by by the time quals come come around in July PhD F: So do you just take the probabilities of the other ones and spread them out evenly among the the remaining ones ? Grad A: I I I was thinking OK so just set to set to some really low number the the non voiced phones Right ? And then renormalize PhD F: Cool That will be really interesting to see you know So then you are going to feed the those into pause some standard recognizer wh are you going to do digits Grad A: m well I m going to f work with TIMIT PhD F: or ? With TIMIT OK Grad A: TIMIT phone recognition with TIMIT PhD F: Oh so then you will feed those Sorry So where do the outputs of the net go into if you are doing phone recognition ? Grad A: Oh the outputs of the net go into the standard h ICSI hybrid recognizer So maybe Chronos PhD F: An and you are going to the you are going to do phone recognition with that ?","Grad A thought that the experiments would explain which categories were good for speech recognition. The experiments would do phone recognition with TIMIT and the output would go into a standard recognizer, maybe Chronos." "User Interface: Well So we can always discuss about it for example the presently the video market actually this demand video overdemand or what we call it as it is presently booming up actually so it i like people are providing like things like movies you can select actually so you want to watch a movie and your p your provider gives a list of movies and then you select those list basically you go off it downloads the movie it gives for you and then when you come you want to loo watch it on your TV And thi this is going to come Industrial Designer: Or even you do not need to download it it is streamed online User Interface: it can be streamed online for you and you can say what time I want to watch the movie Project Manager: I have received some some some some well points of of thinking over of my account manager and I would like to share them with you first thing is teletext is a well known feature of televisions but it is it is getting used less and less That is that is especially because of the internet of course So we should think about it Do we include it and do we give it a prominent prominent place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself as a in any case it is it is not used well very much but it is it is still used further yes we must think do we stay to to television only the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you can not go back huh or do we go further as Matthew indicated by supporting recording devices ? Marketing: So DVDs and VCRs ? Project Manager: And and and the hard disk recorders furthermore w we need really need to interest y younger customers and then with younger customers I mean people below the age of forty and our our current customers are mainly forty plus that is to that is I mean there is a market but they will grow older older and you will al always need to have the the future with younger people therefore younger people like trendy trendy designs so that is w we should make our our our RC as trendy as possible but it should also be have a reliable image so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all User Interface: it is well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys you know right now if you take it you have like zero one two three like a keys separately but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys you press on the top it takes one number you press on the bottom it takes another number and basically so the space covered so that you do not see two separate keys there actually so it it is like i i it is like Project Manager: Ma Maybe Maybe you can draw it on the on the board Marketing: Mm But I think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting especially if we are going after a younger market that is the the the mm the new and the funky things Industrial Designer: Because they are already used to that you know product Marketing: there is lot there is lots of pretty mobile phones not too many pretty remote controls Project Manager: And and they are skilled by using it User Interface: it works Fine So for example you have presently keys like one two three like this actually and four five six like that and you can have keys like this in form like keys like that Project Manager: Mael can you hand me over this ? Marketing: Mmhmm How much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? Because we have not talked about demographic at all Project Manager: I think fi five min Marketing: and it is a very important issue User Interface: so you you you can have keys like which are which are like so too sorry so we basically do not change the original order of them but then the keys are more spacious they do not look so there there is a very sligh thing so if you press on the top it takes the one it takes the three four sorry four here five and six so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice for you do not have too many keys but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to Project Manager: Kay I I think now that the ideas clear","First of all, Project Manager launched a discussion about video over-demand, during which User Interface and Industrial Designer mentioned some fancy functions like downloading and streamlining. Then, Project Manager announced that according to the account manager, teletext could be included in the discussion, though its obsolescence incurred doubts over its usability and necessity. After that, Project Manager offered a choice question between television and further recording devices represented by DVDs, VCRs, and hard disk recorders. Finally, to cater for the younger people, User Interface devised big thick keys for RC in imitation of mobile phones, which received positive feedback from other team members." "Project Manager: first thing is teletext is a well known feature of televisions but it is it is getting used less and less That is that is especially because of the internet of course So we should think about it Do we include it and do we give it a prominent prominent place on on on the on well huh on the remote mot control itself as a in any case it is it is not used well very much but it is it is still used further yes we must think do we stay to to television only the television as we as we all know it with with broadcasting signals and you can not go back huh or do we go further as Matthew indicated by supporting recording devices ? Marketing: So DVDs and VCRs ? Project Manager: And and and the hard disk recorders furthermore w we need really need to interest y younger customers and then with younger customers I mean people below the age of forty and our our current customers are mainly forty plus that is to that is I mean there is a market but they will grow older older and you will al always need to have the the future with younger people therefore younger people like trendy trendy designs so that is w we should make our our our RC as trendy as possible but it should also be have a reliable image so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all","Project Manager first brought up teletext as a well-known feature of televisions, but then admitted that it was becoming obsolete due to the development of the internet, though it was still used. Under this circumstance, Project Manager put forward two options, one of which was to stop at the television phase, and the other was to go further to the phase of the recording device. Then he started to talk about target customers in the first place and laid teletext issues on the table." "User Interface: but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys you press on the top it takes one number you press on the bottom it takes another number and basically so the space covered so that you do not see two separate keys there actually so it it is like i i it is like Project Manager: Ma Maybe Maybe you can draw it on the on the board Marketing: Mm But I think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting especially if we are going after a younger market that is the the the mm the new and the funky things Industrial Designer: Because they are already used to that you know product Marketing: there is lot there is lots of pretty mobile phones not too many pretty remote controls Project Manager: And and they are skilled by using it User Interface: it works Fine So for example you have presently keys like one two three like this actually and four five six like that and you can have keys like this in form like keys like that Project Manager: Mael can you hand me over this ?","User Interface gained the inspiration of big thick keys for remote control from mobile phones, which were already skillfully used by the younger generation and thus made thick keys familiar to youngsters. Also, according to Marketing, compared with ordinary keys for RC, thick keys fitted in with the trend, especially among youngsters. Moreover, every team member agreed that with thick design, keys would look less cluttered and more spacious." "Project Manager: we should now try to decide on our target group Marketing: Which I think is quite tricky basically we are trying to get people to buy a remote control would not they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? Project Manager: Of course they have already one So our our our remote control has to be better Marketing: But it is not going to have more functionality because it is only a low market it is a cheapend remote control we can not beat modern functionality we might we will be able to beat them on th the look of it th the design of it but that is not a big seller if they are not just going to buy a new remote control just because it looks pretty they have to actually need it as well So I am not sure how we can get people to buy this thing Project Manager: Mm I well I think many people said in your in in your research the appearance of the RC is is important when they are buying one Marketing: Mm But why are they buying one in the first place ? Project Manager: but Indeed So that will be about functionality Marketing: Mm But if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they will buy a universal remote I have got friends who have got so many things they need a universal remote otherwise they are using five different remotes for their all their things In that case they would not buy our product because it does not give them what they need in terms of functionality Project Manager: So your you think we should go for a more you universal highperformance Marketing: Well we can not with the price range We We are not building a universal remote we are not building a high end product Project Manager: What do What do you think about What componen Industrial Designer: we have twelve point five Euros per per R s RC and I think with this now you know that chips are very cheaps and we can include it in our control some new new features Marketing: But If we are getting into universal remote territory we are getting to LCD screens and things like that which would drive the cost up a lot Project Manager: I do not know I do not know whether that is necessary Industrial Designer: I do not think LCD is not necessary well th for long term Project Manager: I think thi this could be this could be a market because universal remote controls tend to be quite expensive Marketing: And quite complicated to use Project Manager: S so we can try to go in between and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated Marketing: Mmhmm Not as flexible maybe but s Project Manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal RC because it has more it it is in some kind universal Marketing: But if we are going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own TVs to use a remote control on Project Manager: Mm yes but w we are targeting I think on more on the on the twenty to forty group People yes Who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control Marketing: Mmhmm Mmhmm Yep I do not know really what the the price range for remote controls is Are we going to be at the very bottom of the price range or are we kind of middle to bottom ? I do not know Project Manager: I think when we think it over I thi I think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money So d Do you agree ? User Interface: Well Well I it is fine with me like the price as long as it is not too expensive and it d Our provin Industrial Designer: because we have to take into account that we are going to b we are going to sell four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers the price of a chip is price of a chip is very cheap So I am for designing a ne less a a kind of universal RC Project Manager: Mmhmm You think it is possible for the twelve Euro fifty ? so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control User Interface: that is that is what we needed basically that is needed right now And basically you can look to the standards of other Industrial Designer: And if we want to get the market we really need that Marketing: So I guess what I would like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices being able to switch between them there may be stereo VCR and TV And just be able to s use them all from the same remote but not at the same time User Interface: you can also browse through all the standards you know where are the limit of standards for all of them and you can just browse through them Industrial Designer: Is that for you ? Project Manager: So given we are going for this universal type m maybe it is good when you try to find out which components you therefore need and y you will try to get more specific user interface content and maybe you can look on on what trends are in this in this type of market So anyone has a point to bring in User Interface: Oh I do not have anything right now We can we will we will go Industrial Designer: that is that is fine then User Interface: and we will I am sure we will up something good Project Manager: we we can have lunch now So Then th th the next meeting will User Interface: so we meet in well what are our Project Manager: after lunch you have we have thirty minutes of work and then we have the next meeting But you will be informed via the computer User Interface: Cool So see you later","When Projected Manager announced that the group should decide on the target group, Marketing thought that with a tight budget, the functionality of the product would be greatly restricted. Hence, only a low market could be reached. However, after a brief discussion about LCR screen, Project Manager brought back the idea of universal remote control, and the group reached a consensus on the feasibility of designing a basic universal remote control at a low cost." "Project Manager: therefore younger people like trendy trendy designs so that is w we should make our our our RC as trendy as possible but it should also be have a reliable image so when it looks too too spacey or too fancy people will think well does it work at all User Interface: it is well you you can follow the ideas how you want to keep the keys you know right now if you take it you have like zero one two three like a keys separately but suppose if you take the the present trend of mobile phones there are like big thick keys you press on the top it takes one number you press on the bottom it takes another number and basically so the space covered so that you do not see two separate keys there actually so it it is like i i it is like Project Manager: Ma Maybe Maybe you can draw it on the on the board Marketing: Mm But I think taking the idea of getting inspiration from mobile phones is interesting especially if we are going after a younger market that is the the the mm the new and the funky things Industrial Designer: Because they are already used to that you know product Marketing: there is lot there is lots of pretty mobile phones not too many pretty remote controls Project Manager: And and they are skilled by using it User Interface: it works Fine So for example you have presently keys like one two three like this actually and four five six like that and you can have keys like this in form like keys like that Project Manager: Mael can you hand me over this ? Marketing: Mmhmm How much longer have we got for the meeting by the way ? Because we have not talked about demographic at all Project Manager: I think fi five min Marketing: and it is a very important issue User Interface: so you you you can have keys like which are which are like so too sorry so we basically do not change the original order of them but then the keys are more spacious they do not look so there there is a very sligh thing so if you press on the top it takes the one it takes the three four sorry four here five and six so the keys can be it looks you know not very much cluttered but it looks nice for you do not have too many keys but you can have a lot of options t if you press on the to Project Manager: Kay I I think now that the ideas clear we should now try to decide on our target group Marketing: Which I think is quite tricky basically we are trying to get people to buy a remote control would not they already have a remote control with their television when they buy one ? Project Manager: Of course they have already one So our our our remote control has to be better Marketing: But it is not going to have more functionality because it is only a low market it is a cheapend remote control we can not beat modern functionality we might we will be able to beat them on th the look of it th the design of it but that is not a big seller if they are not just going to buy a new remote control just because it looks pretty they have to actually need it as well So I am not sure how we can get people to buy this thing Project Manager: Mm I well I think many people said in your in in your research the appearance of the RC is is important when they are buying one Marketing: Mm But why are they buying one in the first place ? Project Manager: but Indeed So that will be about functionality","Marketing thought that remote control should be targeted at a low market. First, considering the tight budget, Marketing described the product as a cheap-end remote control, which would hardly gain the advantage over competitors in functionality. By saying that she implied that a high-end RC for a high market should be equipped with sophisticated functions, which were not possessed by a low-cost one anyway. Therefore, only a low market may want to buy it." "Marketing: Mm But if people are buying a new remote control for functionality they will buy a universal remote I have got friends who have got so many things they need a universal remote otherwise they are using five different remotes for their all their things In that case they would not buy our product because it does not give them what they need in terms of functionality Project Manager: So your you think we should go for a more you universal highperformance Marketing: Well we can not with the price range We We are not building a universal remote we are not building a high end product Project Manager: What do What do you think about What componen Industrial Designer: we have twelve point five Euros per per R s RC and I think with this now you know that chips are very cheaps and we can include it in our control some new new features Marketing: But If we are getting into universal remote territory we are getting to LCD screens and things like that which would drive the cost up a lot Project Manager: I do not know I do not know whether that is necessary Industrial Designer: I do not think LCD is not necessary well th for long term Project Manager: I think thi this could be this could be a market because universal remote controls tend to be quite expensive Marketing: And quite complicated to use Project Manager: S so we can try to go in between and offer a product which is not as expensive and not as complicated Marketing: Mmhmm Not as flexible maybe but s Project Manager: but but still but still people have the idea this is more functional than a normal RC because it has more it it is in some kind universal Marketing: But if we are going for the say fifteen to twenty five age group then not many of them would actually own TVs to use a remote control on Project Manager: Mm yes but w we are targeting I think on more on the on the twenty to forty group People yes Who just have or already have a job and have the money but may not want to spend that much money on a on a universal universal control Marketing: Mmhmm Mmhmm Yep I do not know really what the the price range for remote controls is Are we going to be at the very bottom of the price range or are we kind of middle to bottom ? I do not know Project Manager: I think when we think it over I thi I think we are trying to offer the a kind of universal control for for less money So d Do you agree ? User Interface: Well Well I it is fine with me like the price as long as it is not too expensive and it d Our provin Industrial Designer: because we have to take into account that we are going to b we are going to sell four aro around four million so when we speak about these numbers the price of a chip is price of a chip is very cheap So I am for designing a ne less a a kind of universal RC Project Manager: Mmhmm You think it is possible for the twelve Euro fifty ? so then we we decide on on on going to this more universal kind of control User Interface: that is that is what we needed basically that is needed right now And basically you can look to the standards of other Industrial Designer: And if we want to get the market we really need that Marketing: So I guess what I would like from a universal remote is maybe choosing between three devices being able to switch between them there may be stereo VCR and TV And just be able to s use them all from the same remote but not at the same time","When Marketing first touched on the idea of a universal remote, she quickly rebutted herself, arguing that a high-end product was not achievable with a tight budget. However, Project Manager said that the group could make an attempt to provide a basic version of universal control, which could switch between stereo, VC, and TV. Thus, the group agreed to give universal remote a try and see if they could design a cheap one within budget." Project Manager: first we going over the minutes of the last meeting more or less in the last meeting the marketing manager had presented her method of working meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best could market this this product at the within the budget that was given in general the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use it is also an item that people lose a lot So we should address that And of course it should be something s s that is very simple to use In addition to that to make it sell of course the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because in particular with smaller items that is a very important fact because if they say well I go home and think about it that will not work also mentioned was it should be it should have a very short learning curve And maybe it could be sold by using a slogan Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chip that has infrared bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip Therefore messages will be controlled in the same manner There should be extra features like lid buttons maybe a beep If too many buttons are pressed mm child lock and maybe a display clock so that people could you could see the time you know what show they want to watch Also mentioned was maybe different shapes So the components of the thing should be button bulbs infra infrared bulbs battery chips wires and maybe some kind of a holder for the for the item Francino who is our interface designer has mentioned that the that it of course should have an onoff button and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock Particularly with maybe small children that they could not watch a channel that is undesirable It should be compact Her personal favourite was it should be Tshaped And maybe have an anar alarmclock And the material should possibly be not of nonallergic nature the different systems that exist are infrared or radiowaves maybe it should have electri electrici electricity saving feature And even possibly a timer to so that people can program their favourite program on th right from the remote,"The general idea for the remote was that it should be easy to use, attractive and electricity saving. People might lose it a lot and it could be sold by using a slogan. For the technical aspect, the remote should have a chip with an interface that controls it, infrared bulbs, battery, wires, buttons and holder. There should be extra features such as timer, lid buttons, on-off button, channel lock and display clock. The remote could be in different shapes, preferably compact and T-shaped. The material should be of non-allergic nature. The different systems that exist were infrared and radio-waves." "User Interface: Now as an interface designer I would give more emphasis on the interface how the remote looks like so that it is sellable it is attractive to customers Next please Now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television This messages could be switch onoff message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto a particular channel like you can have the numbers one two three four up to nine Project Manager: Nine what ? Nine channel switches ? Nine channel switches ? Is Mmhmm Mmhmm User Interface: Yes nine numbers And then you have swapping of button by which using which you can swap the channels if you do not want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa Then it should have a next button and next button channel by which you can keep on v mm eh scrolling the channels one by one Industrial Designer: Going to the nex next User Interface: Then you should have a button which should which ca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume Then there should be a button which can give subtitles for a particular program which is going on a television For example if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles in English then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see the the subtitles on the screen Then there should d there should be some buttons which can control features like the colour colour of the picture the contrast sharpness brightness of the picture Now there should be a memory switch There should be a mute button Suddenly if if if viewer he gets a telephone call and if he want he does not want to switch off the TV but he he can reduce the sound he can bring the volume down and he can watch he can while talking he can watch the TV Now the most important feature I would like to have in my remote would be the speech recognition feature It is an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit So a remote can be th can be designed which can have the voice recognisers you can record your own voice which can be recognised by as voice recogniser in the television for example if you want to see we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel th now the the the remote will automatically it will switch to the ninth channel So the TV will have some recogniser which will recognise the users voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities So this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have So this is one one of the interface which can be created A very simple interface which has all the t important features","There would be nine channel switches and a memory switch. There would be buttons for the next channel, subtitles, increasing and decreasing volume, mute and controlling features like colour, contrast, sharpness, brightness of picture. There also could be a speech recognition feature, which would be an integrated programmable sample sensor speaker unit that had voice recognizers to record the user's voice and change functionalities accordingly. It was agreed that the interface should be simple with important features." "User Interface: Then these are some of the remotes which are different in shape and colour but they have many buttons So sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise which button is for what function and all that So you can you can design an interface which is very simple and which is userfriendly Even a kid can use that So can you go on t t to the next slide so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voice recogniser And this has multipurpose use it can be used for TV it can be used for cablesatellite it can be used for VCR DVDs and audio And this has inbuilt voice recogniser Can you go on to the next slide ? now this is an interface for a chil for a remote which a child can use this is userfriendly it is very attractive and children can use it as well as they can play with it And this comes with different colours different shapes And this this child interface has minimum buttons and all the important buttons are there in this small compact attractive child interface Next slide please Now this is a big oversized remote which can not be misplaced or it is impossible to misplace Marketing: You do not know me I could lose that in a minute User Interface: So this is No this is a very big you can not misplace it anywhere So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it is impossible to i am misplace or lose This i this is one such interface which can be created And the personal preference would be a spe to incorporate speech recognisers which will respond to users voice for a particular function Project Manager: Mmhmm thank you very much any comments on her presentation ? Marketing: Well looks like we still have quite a choice of things out there what I am No suggestions bad But we are going to have to narrow it down a little more I do not think that we can get The Tshape is good the child one is good the too big to misplace I think it is just funny I do not think that is going to be our impulse purchase at the checkout counter Project Manager: I I th I think Marketing: It is it is going to be a little bit too unwieldy Project Manager: No I think the these are her presentations but as far as the decision making we getting to that after after Marketing: mm Mmhmm Have to come back to that later","The interfaces shown on the slides were a remote that had voice recognizer with multi-purpose use such as for TV and cable-satellite, a simple and compact one that a child can use and could play with it and a big oversized remote that cannot be misplaced. The team agreed that the T-shaped design and the children-friendly interface were nice but the over-big one was not ideal." Industrial Designer: I have just brief down few components which we require for the remote control construction the first one is case to keep all the components like integrated circuit battery etcetera etcetera it is like it can be a plastic one hard plastic so that it can be strong even if you just you know if you if it falls down then it does not break So it should be strong And there are no harmful materials used in that And it should be recyclable and also using of colouring compon components like if we want to have different colours blue red green so we have to use some colouring compone compone components And the second important thing is integrated circuit which we can use a highly sophisticated one because it is like the it is like the heart of the remote controller If it is not efficient then everything wi is going to be like the lef ess less efficient so it you should we should have a highly sophisticated one And it should be resistant to high as well as low temperatures Suppose if it is thirtyeight degrees outside forty degrees outside it should it should be able to re resist the temperature highs and high temperatures and low temperatures And it should be with equipped with timer and alarm facility And the other component we should we have in the remote controller is a resistor which is like i it is very very much important for the electricity flow through through through the remote controller and also a capacitor which is a b which is a m I think it is it is like a battery capacitor Can you go on to the next slide please ? a diode a transistor a resonator these are all this technical electri electronic compons components which are which we have to use in a remote controller A battery I would like to suggest one thing if we if we will be able to make a res rechargeable battery then we sh we need not go for a high performance battery even if it is a low performance battery it ca it can not l it can not charge much It it it is not a high voltage battery Then also we can If it is a rechargeable one then people can use it for a long time so in that way we can cut cut the cost but w that we have to make the battery as rechargeable one And we we have a circuit board in a remote controller Can you go to the next slide please And how it works how the remote controller works,"There should be a strong and recyclable case that was not made from harmful materials such as plastic. A resistor, capacitor, diode, transistor, circuit board and resonator should be in the remote, along with a timer and alarm facility. The integrated circuit could be highly sophisticated for higher efficiency and should be resistant to high and low temperatures. Also, colouring components could be used if the remote was to have different colours. For the battery, it could be rechargeable as people can use it for a long time and saves costs for production." Industrial Designer: Thank you when you press a button when you do that you complete a specific connection that means when you when you press a button there will be a s a small circuit underneath the button and it will send some signals through the wires and then the chip will send start connection and knows that which button is pressed Suppose you have pressed channel one button number one you have pressed then the chip will know that the number one button was pressed It pros produces a mors morse code line signal specific to that button Every button every individual button has its own morse code Suppose the user has pressed butto button one then it will have a spe the circuit will generate a specific morse code to b that that button and the transistor will amplify the signal and send then to the LED which translates the signal into infrared light Like you have got a signal by pressing a button That is a d a morse code has been generated by the integrated circuit Now that signal that morse code has to be amplified by the transistor That is the use of transist transistor we which we use in the remote controller It will amplify the signal and it will send it to the LED and which translates the signal into an infra infrared bits The sensor on the TV can see the infrared light and seeing the signal seeing the signal re it reacts appropriately that when it sees the amplified mo morse code signal then it will it will know which what what action it has to do Then it will do the appropriate action So this is how the remote controller works,"When a button was pressed, a small circuit underneath the button would send signals through the wires to the chip. The chip would know which button was pressed and produce a morse code signal specific to that button, which the transistor would amplify the signal. The LED would receive the signal and translate it into infrared light. The sensor on the TV would receive the infrared light which contained the signals and would react accordingly." "Industrial Designer: Can you go to the next slide please I have few pictures When you look at the remote controller it is it is it this is a normal remote controller And to the next slide please And where we had a a few buttons and all And if you open the remote controller you have this circui circuit board and few electronic components like you can see a chip there which is having eighteen pins and also a capac a capacitor three resistors and also a resonator mm and di and a diode transistor The electronic components all of the electronic components have all those things like a chip and d diode transistors an di can y you can see the TA double one eight three five labelled chip you can also see the the green two green things are these are they are they are resistors and just beside that you can see a transistor and a cylinder shape that one is a capacitor and also there are resistors sorry ther there is a diode Can you go go on to the next slide So this is the circuit board The green one is a circuit board Actually building a circuit bo board is pretty pretty easy and also it is a it is a l l inexpensive it is it costs less than what you print on a paper because when you when you are building some circuits some circuits and also wires it is it is better to go for printing because you can build these kind of k circuit boards on a on a bulk and it is just printing nothing like you know you do not need to use wires and all It is not exactly wires we are using It is just printing something on a board Tha though those prints will acti act as wires and ci circuits So th that green thing is a circuit board and also you can see there are b s like access for buttons like when you press a button the circuit under the button will be activated th it will it will he get some signals from it and it will it will ch its ch se send a signal signals to the integrated circuit Can you go to the next slide please so this is these are the circuits un underneath the buttons can you see the black round marks ? They they are the circuits Next please And like we have designed before we have seen some few things like instead off buttons we have some scrolls b but a b a pushbutton requires a simple chip underneath it but whereas a scroll wheel requires normally a regular chip which is a higher price range Like for s scrolls we have to go for a sophisticated and and k full a complete chip and a as energy source we offer a basic battery a more ingenious hard dynamo a kinetic provision of energy more than what is that you shake casually to provide energy So that also we can have in a battery or we can use solar sells the product can be de delivered into different cases usually the cases and card flat that w we see usually d a normal remote controller Project Manager: And you have more pictures we have five minutes to the end of the meeting Industrial Designer: maybe d I have just one more slide I think Like we can have a ma material such as plastic rubber wood titanium but titanium we can not use and also for electronics we can use a simple and regular re or an advanced chip on the print also infra it includes the infrared se sender the for the movie just to j develop samples and so spe sample speaker An that is it It is all for me now Project Manager: Any particular comments by anybody ? Marketing: on the scroll and the pushbutton ca you can achieve scrolling by repeatedly pushing a button ? Industrial Designer: No no no th the the the scrolling wheels are different like you can go for a sw switches like buttons or scrolls which which we used to do before ten ten years before I think Now nobody uses that because you need you need a a k sophisticated chip and all So I think it is better we go for ordinary buttons Marketing: We will just go for push buttons for in the interest of cost","It was agreed that the circuit board would be printed in bulk as it would be cheaper with no wires and both regular and advanced chips could be made on print, including the infrared sender. A scroll wheel, presented as an alternative to push buttons, required a more sophisticated chip, making it more costly than push buttons, which require a regular chip. Hence, the team agreed to have push buttons to save cost. On the other hand, the case would be bright, colourful and strong with a trendy design. The battery was foreseen to be the energy source of the remote." Industrial Designer: the product can be de delivered into different cases usually the cases and card flat that w we see usually d a normal remote controller,"Materials could be made from plastic, rubber or wood and the remote could be in different cases. Speech recognition was pending for more research on how much it cost. In addition, there were doubts from Industrial Designer on this feature as there might be trouble in recognizing different voices." Marketing: Go right to my first my next slide alright my method is I am interested in what the competition is doing and want to see how we can make ourselves different from the competition so I have really been looking at the press and the ads that are out there for other remote controllers I s I spend a lot of time on the internet surfing around doing the same thing And then when I am out in peoples houses or at meetings or anything like that I try to notice what kind of remote controls people have and if it is convenient in the conversation I ask about it And I would encourage you all to do the same and my findings from this is that you know small is beautiful people like something that really fits in their hand Simple is beautiful They do not want to have to squint at small print they want buttons whose functions are obvious and they want as few buttons as possible and they do not care for the mode thing They want each button to do something And eyecatching is important It is got to look cute it is got to look appealing Go ahead I am trying to finish fast for you and our preference is as far as I am concerned are we got to get to the market before the competition Ours has to be look really great and it has to come out before the others so that we have a leg up on time to sell it and push it before other people get out their Christmas item And we should develop one or two features we can really dwell on in our ad campaign If we try to tell people it has too many great features the consumer just gets confused and we do not get anywhere So we have got to narrow our selection down to li two things I think that we going to say are really great about our our our new product And I have been looking around at what designs every year different things are popular And in my research this year I found out that fruit and vegetable shapes are really popular And people are tired of hard plastic and hard metal They are more back into soft feel spongy feeling things things with maybe a little cloth on them So those are things maybe we want to look at as far as saleability of the item,People liked something that fit their hand and fewer buttons which the functions were obvious. They didn't want to squint at small prints and didn't care for different modes. The appearance of the remote should be eye-catching and appealing. The remote had to be in the market before competition for Christmas. Fruit and vegetable shapes were very popular this year and people were back into a soft and spongy feel with a little cloth. The star features of the remote should be narrowed down to one or two and voice recognizer could be an option. "Project Manager: our next meeting will be in thirty minutes and the ID is to this is the individual actions to be taken until then to have the look and feel design and the UID is supposed to come up with the user interface design and the marketing expert with the product evaluation In this phase the two of you Jana and Francine have to work together on a prototype using modelling clay it says here You will receive specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches if you have any questions you know you you can always contact me or or your coach I suppose Marketing: Wherever they are hiding ? Project Manager: so I think we conclude the meeting here and we come back in thirty minutes according to our timetable here","Industrial Designer was supposed to have the look and feel of the design, User Interface should have come up with user interface design and Marketing should have the product evaluation for the next meeting. Furthermore, User Interface and Marketing had to work together on a prototype using modelling clay and everyone would receive specific instructions sent by coaches." "Project Manager: main problem that we have unfortunately being finance let us just enter in the evaluation criteria unfortunately the unit we are currently going to produce minus the extra scroll buttons it is going to cost us fourteen point six Euros Industrial Designer: What is on the on the left ? Project Manager: rea Sorry I have accidentally highlighted somehow There we go Oh god why is it doing that ? There we go So basically in order to save our two Euros I was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape but just have it flattened User Interface: More like a traditional remote control Project Manager: I mean it is already got a kind of cool shape so but it would not have to be curved sort of in and out And by doing so Oh no hold on Does not save us quite as much I do not know what is going on with this again Industrial Designer: W why is the double curved two of them ? Marketing: And double curve on both sides ? Project Manager: That is sort of curve in and out Marketing: This is doublecurve It This one is single curve Because this is single curve this is curved on both sides So doublecurve Project Manager: No I think it means double curved as in like a single curve on that bottom half and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward I might be wrong though Marketing: Like this one curve on this side one curve on that side Project Manager: I do not think that counts as a curve I think that is just a shape A curvature is like the this case Industrial Designer: Because that is the the biggest expense there right Project Manager: and why why I have got it two I do not know I can not seem to select any more however Industrial Designer: Well we can work around that Cut things out But you think it should be one Project Manager: It is meant to be one I do not know why I put two in there but Hold on till I find it I think this shift button might be stuck again No maybe the shift buttons stuck in so that would take away three which would give us User Interface: So we could even add something Project Manager: We cou Oh not quite have the scrollwheel unfortunately Industrial Designer: We should fire the accountants Ah we could add things Maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell where you are starting from and then use the arrow keys Project Manager: I know that just extends it as well Marketing: you can do one thing You just select one box outsi this box Then move it with the help of this Project Manager: It One of the buttons is sticking I do not know Marketing: Just just just a minute No input like this Shift No it is not Project Manager: No it is because the the shift buttons stuck or something Industrial Designer: Is it the other shift button maybe ? Marketing: Should we ask our technical expert Melissa ? Project Manager: No that is fine we have worked out what it would be anyway Industrial Designer: Did you try both shift buttons ? It could be the other side Project Manager: Oh well never mind Right so that is finances and I do not know what we what could we reckon we could add ? User Interface: Well maybe we could add something but maybe if Project Manager: Well I suppose that is our that is that is our design that we have got So User Interface: What do you th We are trying to save money so if we are happy with the design there is no point in spending money if we do not have to But if there is anything you think we have missed out there then you know feel free to add it Maybe I mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front because it is not in an ideal place right now Project Manager: Well that is that is so project evaluation We have under twelve Euros fifty Project process how do we think that went ? Are we happy ? Industrial Designer: I think we have a a winning product","According to Project Manager, currently, the new remote controls would cost fourteen point six Euros each. Unfortunately, that was two Euros over the budget. Then the team had a little discussion on how to reduce the cost. Eventually, the cost was reduced to eleven Euros sixty by adjusting two parts of the design. That left them plenty of room to add some other designs to the existing models. The final cost of the new remote controls was set at twelve Euros fifty each." "Industrial Designer: What is on the on the left ? Project Manager: rea Sorry I have accidentally highlighted somehow There we go Oh god why is it doing that ? There we go So basically in order to save our two Euros I was thinking that we could have essentially the same shape but just have it flattened User Interface: More like a traditional remote control Project Manager: I mean it is already got a kind of cool shape so but it would not have to be curved sort of in and out And by doing so Oh no hold on Does not save us quite as much I do not know what is going on with this again Industrial Designer: W why is the double curved two of them ? Marketing: And double curve on both sides ? Project Manager: That is sort of curve in and out Marketing: This is doublecurve It This one is single curve Because this is single curve this is curved on both sides So doublecurve Project Manager: No I think it means double curved as in like a single curve on that bottom half and the double curved would be if it was that similar curve upward I might be wrong though Marketing: Like this one curve on this side one curve on that side Project Manager: I do not think that counts as a curve I think that is just a shape A curvature is like the this case Industrial Designer: Because that is the the biggest expense there right Project Manager: and why why I have got it two I do not know I can not seem to select any more however Industrial Designer: Well we can work around that Cut things out But you think it should be one Project Manager: It is meant to be one I do not know why I put two in there but Hold on till I find it I think this shift button might be stuck again No maybe the shift buttons stuck in so that would take away three which would give us","In general, the team came up with two ways to reduce the costs. First, they would essentially remain the same shape as the prototypes, but just have it flattened. In User Interface's words, it would be more like a traditional remote control. Second, the team reached a consensus that the design of double curves shall be changed into a single curve since it was the biggest expense there. Luckily, after the discussion, the overall cost of the new remote controls went down to eleven Euros sixty." "User Interface: So we could even add something Project Manager: We cou Oh not quite have the scrollwheel unfortunately Industrial Designer: We should fire the accountants Ah we could add things Maybe if you click back in that bottom right cell where you are starting from and then use the arrow keys Project Manager: I know that just extends it as well Marketing: you can do one thing You just select one box outsi this box Then move it with the help of this Project Manager: It One of the buttons is sticking I do not know Marketing: Just just just a minute No input like this Shift No it is not Project Manager: No it is because the the shift buttons stuck or something Industrial Designer: Is it the other shift button maybe ? Marketing: Should we ask our technical expert Melissa ? Project Manager: No that is fine we have worked out what it would be anyway Industrial Designer: Did you try both shift buttons ? It could be the other side Project Manager: Oh well never mind Right so that is finances and I do not know what we what could we reckon we could add ? User Interface: Well maybe we could add something but maybe if Project Manager: Well I suppose that is our that is that is our design that we have got So User Interface: What do you th We are trying to save money so if we are happy with the design there is no point in spending money if we do not have to But if there is anything you think we have missed out there then you know feel free to add it Maybe I mean obviously it would be bigger so there might be more space for the the slogan on the front because it is not in an ideal place right now Project Manager: Well that is that is so project evaluation We have under twelve Euros fifty Project process how do we think that went ? Are we happy ? Industrial Designer: I think we have a a winning product","Through a series of previous adjustments, the cost of the new remote controls had been effectively reduced. The team then decided to use some of the remaining cost budget to add another design to the new remotes. After discussion, the team thought it might be a good idea to have the slogan on the front because there was obviously more space there and the current slogan was not in an ideal place. With this little change, the overall cost of the new remote each went up to twelve Euros fifty, still under the budget limit." "Project Manager: Evaluation Oh we have been writing this up for m months User Interface: I think it went quite smoothly Project Manager: room for creativity were we happy with that ? User Interface: W I think we were very creative Project Manager: No I mea I think it means sort of individually Groovy So we are just going to Teamwork ? Leadership sorry Thank you very much You are all get you are all getting a raise teamwork I thought went well User Interface: everyone got enough input I think Project Manager: The technical stuff was brilliant Industrial Designer: These pens are are neat though Project Manager: I do not know what new ideas found means to be honest Marketing: these are new ideas like glowinthedark or something like that We discussed all the new ideas but of course we could not reach any proper goals we could not use these but we h we are using these scroll buttons like this These are new ideas we And new shapes everything Project Manager: So just general thumbs up for all of us then That kind of unfortunately is too quick Industrial Designer: so let us talk about our bonuses and the raises we are getting for this right Project Manager: That is it I think another couple of days holiday pay might be well in order for all of you Let us see if I can get this bloody thing to work Industrial Designer: maybe we should start cleaning up the clay Project Manager: Does it go back in does it ? Reusable I do not know what this is but it is really really annoying Marketing: So Brian have you have you finished ? At last mine is also the presentation Project Manager: Huh ? Oh right you have got more User Interface: Oh you got a presentation Project Manager: It did not bother to tell me that on this Marketing: is the project evaluated that is mine Project Manager: Does not tell me Oh you are doing that We evaluated ourselves we thought we were great User Interface: Mm love to eat that now Kind of a green banana now It is this as well sorry we forgot to mention it will be made out of kind of a rubbery latex new material that we have got Project Manager: I wonder w which cell do I want Industrial Designer: It is fun to touch Project Manager: I did not realise you had that bit User Interface: Oh could you pass the tomato please Marketing: So now is the final evaluation final evaluation of the of our product How we are going to means at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not How mu What rating we will give to these products So of course this is will be a team work w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything So what methodology I will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this We will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements whether it meets the user requirements or not this product Then trends whether it is as fashion trends or not ? Means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays So this is also an important factor for our evaluation also Then marketing strategy of the company As we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market not only in terms of providing quality products not only in pro providing latest technologies but also in terms of providing environmental s So but also in terms of providing environmental safe products like keeping keeping in mind all the safety issues So Now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale I am having this scale this scale so we have to do it on a board the user requirem I think Project Manager: The board working again is it ? Industrial Designer: Do we have the the marker for the board ? Marketing: So these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product First of all comes user requirement So we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not I I will first I would like to have your views what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? User Interface: It had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the new technology that people said they wanted Project Manager: When the user requirement is essentially just to operate the TV Marketing: So what do you think you will personally give Project Manager: of course we have not actually got a working model yet User Interface: Seven is good is not it ? I can not True or false ? No sorry tr one is true Marketing: one is means highest ranking But I think highest ranking is seven or one ? Project Manager: No it is it is like true is one end and false is the oth Marketing: right right So it is one for from your point of view And what do you say our Industrial Expert ? Industrial Designer: It is hard to know I I give it a two Marketing: d you can you can tell on on the like I think she has given her views on the basis of design because she was our i Interface Expert But you can give your views based on technology whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? Industrial Designer: I think i it might even exceed it But I guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons I am going to give it a two Marketing: And what about you Brian ? Project Manager: Oh I will go for a one Marketing: You will go for one Project Manager: Basic requirements but of the pro of the project Marketing: for me personally it is everything fine it may be having good design it may be meeting all the requirements of the customers like technologywise pricewise but there is one thing which limits the customers like we are having only two three designs like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange lower end And the third one is what you ge that is not a f fruit look But if a person does not like banana or orange you are limiting him Project Manager: Come on that was the tha Marketing: No do not buy our product because we are l we like this only So we are showing our preference for particular fruits two or three kinds rather and So User Interface: Is that no is that not trends ? Marketing: no personally as a Marketing Expert I do not believe that because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits they give a range of products a range of shapes like if we see look at the smallest thing toffee chocolates they give a variety of different things Some children like to buy banana shape some apple shape some even pineapple shape some orange shape So you can what shape a person will like So in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers And by limiting them we are limiting our sales limiting our profit also User Interface: Uhhuh But in electronics I think it is not q always quite so you do not always have so many choices as with chocolates I think you know if you are going to buy a TV maybe a companyll have That you are going to choose from a companyll have two or three choices but they are different designs We were coming up with one product Marketing: maybe but I will I will personally will not give it beyond three User Interface: No I mean obviously your opinion I am just trying to Project Manager: He is a tough cookie Marketing: on an average we can think three four sevenths maybe Three or four ? User Interface: What are we doing ? Industrial Designer: What are we doing ? Marketing: No sorry sorry sorry sorry we are doing a very wrong thing Industrial Designer: We are going to average them ? Marketing: and that is I have taken it very wrongly Industrial Designer: About one point f one point eight Marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev one pe exactly So we can say one or two because it is one point eight two so we will do two Industrial Designer: round it up to two Marketing: So where were the trends Industrial Designer: Can you explain what you want us to write there ? How it how conforms to the current trends ? Marketing: again the the fashion trends this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the as a fruit shape or something User Interface: Well going on the specifications that we had that fruit and vegetables are quite popular and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons I would give it well because it is hard to make a fruit good to look at that that looks cool you know so I would actually give it a three Tha three or four I am not sure Three Go for three That is fine Industrial Designer: Kay As far as the technology it its got the latest trends in speech technology but it is missing the screen as we said but it does have the pushbuttons or the scrollbuttons but it does not have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism So I give it a a four I would give it a kind of middle of the road for Project Manager: I am sort of pret Just the fruit does me in I mean it might it might be trendy to some but I am just not swallowing the fruit so also I would have liked to have seen the LCD screen in it so I would say about four as well Marketing: personally I wi I think that in terms of trends these products are quite good like these products are in fruit shape because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised like clothes shoes and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables or getting them or showing some association with them So and in this way our product is good And the second thing now people do not want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy So that is also ef that also Our product meets the f the fashion trends of the market And yes It is cus spongy also So they can play with it it is quite good So then I think maybe I can give it two So four five ten thirteen thirteen So we can Is it fine ? So what about company strategy ? User Interface: the company strategy there was lot of discussing that was good I feel I got my say so I would give the company strategy a two Industrial Designer: Well I think it is the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy Is that the question ? User Interface: One just leave it it is fine Industrial Designer: I will go with two Marketing: So what about you Brian ? Project Manager: a three Pretty much kept to the company strategy so I would go for a a one as we not only kept it but we were limited by Marketing: and me also like this product me me me this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers requirement as per latest technology and it should be environmental safe So since our product meets all these requirements so I would also prefer to give it rank one So four six six Industrial Designer: So one and a half Marketing: So we can say two or one So th seven seven overall we are getting two something but we can round it as two So I think overall evaluation of our product is quite good So we can launch it Project Manager: In which case we are done Because we have evaluated and we are within budget","Most time of the discussion of this meeting was devoted into the evaluation of the new remote controls. According to the whole team, this project was excellent because it was creative and with great leadership and teamwork. Also, the technical stuff was brilliant. Lots of new ideas were found, such as glow-in-dark, new shapes, etc. Generally, they all gave a thumb up to the new remote controls. The overall evaluation is around two." "Marketing: So now is the final evaluation final evaluation of the of our product How we are going to means at what standard what standard whether it meets our standards or not How mu What rating we will give to these products So of course this is will be a team work w we together have to decide wha what rating we will give to this product and everything So what methodology I will tell you on what basis we are going to discuss all this We will give the rating to this product based on the user requirements whether it meets the user requirements or not this product Then trends whether it is as fashion trends or not ? Means because we have already stated that people do prefer fashionable things nowadays So this is also an important factor for our evaluation also Then marketing strategy of the company As we have already discussed that our company is quite in the market not only in terms of providing quality products not only in pro providing latest technologies but also in terms of providing environmental s So but also in terms of providing environmental safe products like keeping keeping in mind all the safety issues So Now comes the criteria rating with seven point scale I am having this scale this scale so we have to do it on a board the user requirem I think Project Manager: The board working again is it ? Industrial Designer: Do we have the the marker for the board ? Marketing: So these are the three crite criterias for our evaluation of our product First of all comes user requirement So we will see whether this product meets all user requirements or not I I will first I would like to have your views what do you think whether it meets all user requirements or not ? User Interface: It had all the basic buttons that they needed as well as the new technology that people said they wanted Project Manager: When the user requirement is essentially just to operate the TV Marketing: So what do you think you will personally give Project Manager: of course we have not actually got a working model yet User Interface: Seven is good is not it ? I can not True or false ? No sorry tr one is true Marketing: one is means highest ranking But I think highest ranking is seven or one ? Project Manager: No it is it is like true is one end and false is the oth Marketing: right right So it is one for from your point of view And what do you say our Industrial Expert ? Industrial Designer: It is hard to know I I give it a two Marketing: d you can you can tell on on the like I think she has given her views on the basis of design because she was our i Interface Expert But you can give your views based on technology whether the technology meets the requirements of the customers or not ? Industrial Designer: I think i it might even exceed it But I guess there is a kind of a shortage of buttons I am going to give it a two Marketing: And what about you Brian ? Project Manager: Oh I will go for a one Marketing: You will go for one Project Manager: Basic requirements but of the pro of the project Marketing: for me personally it is everything fine it may be having good design it may be meeting all the requirements of the customers like technologywise pricewise but there is one thing which limits the customers like we are having only two three designs like we are having one banana design and the other one is orange lower end And the third one is what you ge that is not a f fruit look But if a person does not like banana or orange you are limiting him Project Manager: Come on that was the tha Marketing: No do not buy our product because we are l we like this only So we are showing our preference for particular fruits two or three kinds rather and So User Interface: Is that no is that not trends ? Marketing: no personally as a Marketing Expert I do not believe that because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits they give a range of products a range of shapes like if we see look at the smallest thing toffee chocolates they give a variety of different things Some children like to buy banana shape some apple shape some even pineapple shape some orange shape So you can what shape a person will like So in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers And by limiting them we are limiting our sales limiting our profit also User Interface: Uhhuh But in electronics I think it is not q always quite so you do not always have so many choices as with chocolates I think you know if you are going to buy a TV maybe a companyll have That you are going to choose from a companyll have two or three choices but they are different designs We were coming up with one product Marketing: maybe but I will I will personally will not give it beyond three User Interface: No I mean obviously your opinion I am just trying to Project Manager: He is a tough cookie Marketing: on an average we can think three four sevenths maybe Three or four ? User Interface: What are we doing ? Industrial Designer: What are we doing ? Marketing: No sorry sorry sorry sorry we are doing a very wrong thing Industrial Designer: We are going to average them ? Marketing: and that is I have taken it very wrongly Industrial Designer: About one point f one point eight Marketing: three four four two six seven seven sev one pe exactly So we can say one or two because it is one point eight two so we will do two Industrial Designer: round it up to two Marketing: So where were the trends Industrial Designer: Can you explain what you want us to write there ? How it how conforms to the current trends ? Marketing: again the the fashion trends this also like whether it it will be fashionable to have these products in the as a fruit shape or something User Interface: Well going on the specifications that we had that fruit and vegetables are quite popular and that people like something that is good to look at and not many buttons I would give it well because it is hard to make a fruit good to look at that that looks cool you know so I would actually give it a three Tha three or four I am not sure Three Go for three That is fine Industrial Designer: Kay As far as the technology it its got the latest trends in speech technology but it is missing the screen as we said but it does have the pushbuttons or the scrollbuttons but it does not have that fancy solar power or the the vibrating energy mechanism So I give it a a four I would give it a kind of middle of the road for Project Manager: I am sort of pret Just the fruit does me in I mean it might it might be trendy to some but I am just not swallowing the fruit so also I would have liked to have seen the LCD screen in it so I would say about four as well Marketing: personally I wi I think that in terms of trends these products are quite good like these products are in fruit shape because that wha people now our fashion trend shows that people like everything all f everything that is being advertised like clothes shoes and everything is being advertised in the form of fruits and vegetables or getting them or showing some association with them So and in this way our product is good And the second thing now people do not want any complicated or bulky products and ours is quite simple and quite handy So that is also ef that also Our product meets the f the fashion trends of the market And yes It is cus spongy also So they can play with it it is quite good So then I think maybe I can give it two So four five ten thirteen thirteen So we can Is it fine ? So what about company strategy ? User Interface: the company strategy there was lot of discussing that was good I feel I got my say so I would give the company strategy a two Industrial Designer: Well I think it is the the remote control conforms to the the company strategy Is that the question ? User Interface: One just leave it it is fine Industrial Designer: I will go with two Marketing: So what about you Brian ? Project Manager: a three Pretty much kept to the company strategy so I would go for a a one as we not only kept it but we were limited by Marketing: and me also like this product me me me this meets all company strategy like our product should be as per customers requirement as per latest technology and it should be environmental safe So since our product meets all these requirements so I would also prefer to give it rank one So four six six Industrial Designer: So one and a half Marketing: So we can say two or one So th seven seven overall we are getting two something but we can round it as two","In order to make the final evaluation, the team needed to give rating to these products. Of the design of the three fruits, the teams agreed to give two points. As for the trend, since fruits and vegetables were quite populous, the final rating was three. In terms of the company strategy, the rating was one because it perfectly conformed to the strategy. The overall evaluation is around two, which was quite good." "Marketing: So we are showing our preference for particular fruits two or three kinds rather and So User Interface: Is that no is that not trends ? Marketing: no personally as a Marketing Expert I do not believe that because whatever companies they launch their products in the shape of fruits they give a range of products a range of shapes like if we see look at the smallest thing toffee chocolates they give a variety of different things Some children like to buy banana shape some apple shape some even pineapple shape some orange shape So you can what shape a person will like So in this case giving only one or two choices we are lim limiting our customers And by limiting them we are limiting our sales limiting our profit also User Interface: Uhhuh But in electronics I think it is not q always quite so you do not always have so many choices as with chocolates I think you know if you are going to buy a TV maybe a companyll have That you are going to choose from a companyll have two or three choices but they are different designs We were coming up with one product Marketing: maybe but I will I will personally will not give it beyond three User Interface: No I mean obviously your opinion I am just trying to Project Manager: He is a tough cookie","Basically, the dissent mainly came from Marketing. According to Marketing, the company failed to offer enough options to the customers (only three options). Therefore, customers were limited. By limiting the customers, sales and profits would definitely be limited as well. However, User Interface disagreed with him because he believed that electronics were not the same as other products, for example chocolate. There were not always quite so many choices in electronics." "Project Manager: Mm it is enough But click it on off ? User Interface: so you all know me I am the Industrial Designer And we have some basic components that our remote is going to need just basically every remotell need them We need some kind of of power d power source we have to decide on our our user interface which is his department but the in user interface is also a major component we need a programmable digital signal processor to to take the input from the user and translate that into into electronic signal which we pass to the infrared LED which you aim at the television which and it receives that signal You need a onoff switch I do not know how that got in there And we also need to have the if we want a universal remote we need to have encryption codes for the different makes of TVs So we need to know all the different you know all the different signals and so that will require some memory as well so here is just a basic layout of how how the remote would work You ha the v the power source is in the upper righthand corner there and you can see that we have the user interface here which is connected to the chip which does all our signal processing and then passes that signal on to the infrared LED and that signal is then emitted and received by the television at the phototransistor So those are the basic components that need to go into this and everything else is pretty much open to move around Marketing: Now is would this be considered just a standard This is not this is not cutting edge technology we are talking here We are talking about existing technology Nothing is being modified or upgraded or new discoveries User Interface: this is just this is just a basic layout of ev of all the components that w w are going to be absolutely necessary f to have a working remote We can add things in like if we wanted some voice recognition I mean that I mean that you can kind of say would would fall under the user interface and the digital signal processing chip Project Manager: Do we have an idea of costs of different components ? User Interface: well the most the most costly components are going to be the chip and the th it could als basically the user interface and the casing are going to be expensive as well the LED and the the transistors and everything else are you know they are they are pretty cheap So depending on what we want our functionality to be the chip could be expensive or it could be cheap depending on the n amount of memory we need in there and stuff like that and h and h you know how much power Project Manager: Do we have any ballpark figures for that yet ? No User Interface: I do not have any figures right now We we have to wait until we get to a more specific design phase for that but and I think a significant part of the cost could be the actual the actual casing itself and and you know the the b the buttons and things like that I think Marketing: N Mm Mm the she will ? User Interface: So That is all I have really Project Manager: Thanks And we have participant three which I believe is Pedro","The basic components included power source, user interface, a programmable digital signal processor, on-off switch, encryption codes for the different modes of TVs, and memory system. Then User Interface presented the basic layout of how the remote would work. In terms of the cost, the most costly component was the chip and the casing would be expensive as well. LED, the transistors and everything else were pretty cheap. The price of the chip depended on what functionality the product would have and how much the battery capacity and storage would be. For the moment, they didn't have a ballpark figure." "Marketing: Well what comes up for me is that if we are going to if we are going to be marketing a product that is going to be having no teletext people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext and so we are not we are going to be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now So that is from a marketing perspective I I see I see a lack And so we have to go I think in the other direction What are we going to have that makes this thing better than Project Manager: Well tha that first point could also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated some sort remote control that can work with the Internet there is the opportunity that is presented I guess Marketing: Right No I I agree with you So what I am talking about is I see that one side we are eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is what are we going to be targeting our market that identifies our product as better than because it does not have teletext it has tatatatata So that is that is that was my reactions Project Manager: but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television So we are quite fixed So we are really probably in terms of marketing are looking for that is that is a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product Industrial Designer: bu but we we are designing only the remote we not design the TV So we are going to be removing the teletext out of any TV that we people use our remote with So it is kind of a stupid decision Marketing: I think we take with you Project Manager: But there is also the potential for mark there is a market here for our lost teletext For example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible Twentyfive Euros is the selling price we really have to innovate here I guess Marketing: That is what I am that is what I am talking about is is that we have to find something that is going to be very attractive about this product because somebody some people are going to be hap unhappy because it took they can not ac access their teletext Because we are talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninetyfive percent of the televisions out there are are teletext So so it is it is not that I am criticizing the product at all It is just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? What are we bringing in to take the place of this and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up If we lose one we need to bring two or three","The group agreed that the product should be good-looking and branded with their company logo. Industrial Designer thought they should keep the functions simple and basic and aimed at the exterior design. As for the teletext, Project Manager had intended to remove it from their new product, but considering the popularity of teletext, they decided to keep it since it wouldn't affect the price anyway. Besides, the product was demanded to be only for TV, but Marketing thought they should design an all-in-one ultimate remote control which would be easier to sell." "Marketing: Well what comes up for me is that if we are going to if we are going to be marketing a product that is going to be having no teletext people are very comfortable with the idea of having teletext and using teletext and so we are not we are going to be a new product without something that people are very comfortable having right now So that is from a marketing perspective I I see I see a lack And so we have to go I think in the other direction What are we going to have that makes this thing better than Project Manager: Well tha that first point could also be an op opportunity because in seeing that teletext is becoming outdated some sort remote control that can work with the Internet there is the opportunity that is presented I guess Marketing: Right No I I agree with you So what I am talking about is I see that one side we are eliminating something so we have to come up with another side which is what are we going to be targeting our market that identifies our product as better than because it does not have teletext it has tatatatata So that is that is that was my reactions Project Manager: but but we are sort of being dictated that this should only be for the television So we are quite fixed So we are really probably in terms of marketing are looking for that is that is a cost winner rather than a fantastic new feature product Industrial Designer: bu but we we are designing only the remote we not design the TV So we are going to be removing the teletext out of any TV that we people use our remote with So it is kind of a stupid decision Marketing: I think we take with you Project Manager: But there is also the potential for mark there is a market here for our lost teletext For example someone that just goes to the shop that wants a replacement wants it as cheap as possible Twentyfive Euros is the selling price we really have to innovate here I guess Marketing: That is what I am that is what I am talking about is is that we have to find something that is going to be very attractive about this product because somebody some people are going to be hap unhappy because it took they can not ac access their teletext Because we are talking about eighty percent or ninety percent or ninetyfive percent of the televisions out there are are teletext So so it is it is not that I am criticizing the product at all It is just when we eliminate that then what do we bring ? What are we bringing in to take the place of this and we have to d in my opinion we have to double up If we lose one we need to bring two or three","Marketing disapproved of this proposal because though teletext was becoming outdated as Project Manager said, more than eighty percent of the current televisions were still teletext and people were very comfortable with the idea of having and using teletext. Besides, Marketing couldn't understand why the advent of the Internet would eliminate the need for teletext. Even so, if they were to remove the teletext from the controller, they had to bring something very attractive to take the place of it." "User Interface: And it is kind of along the s lines of environmentally sensitive and it may even fit into ergonomics and even kind of address the issue of losing losing the remote what we were saying it is a common issue what we can do is well you know that batteries throwing a aw remotes run through batteries like crazy Right ? And s for some people Well maybe not a solar remote but instead what about if we had like a power cradle ? Like a a cradle that is is there to hold the remote when you are not using it so you will always know where the remote is because you have to put it back there to charge the remote and we can instead of having instead of having you know replaceable batteries we will just have a power cell that stays there for the life of the remote You never have to get go through the go through all these different batteries And also you can I I think it is a good opportunity for the user design or for not just for the user design but also for the just for the look and feel of the remote as as a whole You know you could have some kind of neat little you know a sexy design for d a cradle and the remote itself Marketing: Blah I like it I like the idea but we are talking about in cost is going to probably double User Interface: It w it would increase the cost Marketing: But boy we can sell this thing because there is no batteries it is environmentally sensitive i we can identify it as a safer product in some form User Interface: And you could page the remote if you lose it Maybe there is a button on the cradle Marketing: Yep that is right I really see Project Manager: Now the the question is can we make this for less than twelvefifty per ? Marketing: But the cost i No no No no we have t we have to change the end cost Project Manager: We we well do we necessarily have to change the end cost because Can we dl can we do that without changing it twelvefifty per product if we basically can sell more based on this ? Marketing: There is I mean I do not see it anyway that is going to be up to these guys I my reaction is no but User Interface: what I can do is I can d look into ho well Pedro and I can look into how much this might increase our our costs and you can look into what kind of effect an increased cost is going to have on our on our final numbers Project Manager: we we can certainly push for a more expensive product if that is going to be","User Interface recommended to design a power cradle for the controller so that it would be unnecessary to change batteries. In this way, users would always know where the remote was because they had to put the device back to the cradle to charge it, which addressed the problem of losing it. This attempt would also do good to the look and feel of the remote control as a whole. The idea would be considered by the group, but they had to look into how much this might increase the cost." "Marketing: So so w we can not go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing because all of a sudden we are going to have cost overruns So if we drop if we are going to choose to drop teletext again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? Project Manager: So if we are keeping it basic we are loo loo what we are looking to sell it basically is it is just being very easy to use looking exceptionally good that sort of thing Because we really do not have anything else there do we ? Marketing: I do not I do not see it and to me if I am going to market a product for b for beauty for for design I am going to I am going to try to market it at a much higher price I need to make it special with a high price tag I do not want to make it economically g competitive I want I want to market it as exclusive So I would market this product it at eightynine Euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but I do not think we have that flexibility Project Manager: But i if design if design is cheap and functionality is basic then twentyfive Euros is probably a high price for a commoner garden stan standard TV so the place remote the then the place we are going to justify that cost is through through design through making it a a sleek elegant highpriced basic remote Does that make sense huh ? Marketing: No I no I I understand what you say but what I am what I am we probably need to move along but my my concern is trying to find a marketing niche for this product Project Manager: We we are doing alright for time Marketing: and if I am coming in with a with with twentyfive Euros which is midmarket price then what am I going to give these people for this ? So that is just my question but we can keep talking Project Manager: Sorry that kind of cut into you there Industrial Designer: No just I I would I would advocate for continuing teletext and those would be the basic commands as for you know the the case design maybe I will come up with more concrete ideas Right now it is just the idea of simplicity and slickness cute and small User Interface: Right I am just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that where you know it is just so confusing to do to use all these functions Where I think the largest portion of the market is just going to you know they lost their TV remote they need another one that will work with their TV They want something that looks nice that that that is not going to break when they drop it that you know that maybe it is it is ergonomic it feels good in your hand something like that I think that is going to be where you are going to find the biggest you know market share Project Manager: So we are looking for something that looks good and just works rather than looking for any special features Is that User Interface: I think the more bells and whistles we add it is just going to cut into our into our profits Because I think as we as we add costs for things like for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that I think you know what percentage of the of the of the market is actually going to use that ? Maybe five percent you know Project Manager: But we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this sorry I did not mean to cut in I am not the boss Marketing: Oh P Pedro I just want to say quickly I I would really like it when you can come up with some more bells and whistles eh You know sell things come to my mind is something that is voiceactivated I know we are getting into some I hope some big money on this thing but Project Manager: I think that is probably a question more for for this guy here Marketing: Is that for over here ? User Interface: Well it is kind of both of us Marketing: Because and I think of voiceactivated I think of of how many times I have I have lost my my remote and I can not find it So some way that I can I can find my remote by clapping my hands or something User Interface: Mmhmm I was thinking about that Then your lights would go off though Marketing: But this s just something I am trying to find some bells and whistles because when they talk about tel taking out teletext it is like what are we going to put in ? What makes this thing attractive ? And it is only for televisions So we everyth our our competition out there has got these these multiple adaptors where they can use them for their VCRs their DVDs their their televisions and we are coming out with one remote for television only And so to me we have to make this a really special product I I I do not s I really have to say I do not see the market niche for this product At this price I do not see it yet I am I I go along with this because this is what we are given to try to market but I I do not see the market niche for this product without without some really sort of something really special to identify it as as unique in the market Industrial Designer: But we th that should be design That should be the design basically I think technology we would we we are not in the price range to do it We do not have the money to do it towards t f technology so we should we should aim at design Marketing: Have to do you have to do it in the box ? well so so that is up to you then to to make this box in something that is absolutely extraordinary Maybe make it in the form of a gun We can sell it in United States Project Manager: I have a question for you Does any of the the features that Pedros spoken about here have any implications we might not have thought about on in terms of just pure functionality ? In terms of making it work or the cost of that or User Interface: I do not I think all these things are pretty standard I think we will be Project Manager: Kay Cheers Onto participant four Marketing: Well you know for marketing f marketing for me is and how do I go here ? User Interface: Mm you can just click you just get off that You just click anywhere Marketing: Ahha what for me is it I d I do not know what I am marketing right now til you spoke and when I wrote this I do not know what I am marketing I just know that I I was identified as a a we identified ourselves as a as a developer as a manufacturer and as a as a distributor t to other wholesalers And so the th the twentyfive Euros that we have identified as the sale price is a wholesale price rather than a retail price That is what we decided here so what I did is I I decided that that this this needs to be a product in a in a sense can market itself So what we have identified here as our main marketing stratagem is is in design We are making the most beautiful attractive whatever we decide it is So that means we have about seven more minutes or ten minutes left so I would like to have a product that that we can sell easily So I say inspiration so having something beauty something attractive something that in a sense will sell itself innovation I think fits into what we are talking about here with design cutting edge technology I do not think we are going to have that these were ideas I was putting together unless we come up with some New Age product a as far as the casing is concerned I I want to make this thing something that I can identify as special in some way so maybe we can have some I I talked about environmentally sensitive maybe we have a product that can be identified in some way as advantageous in a home I do not know These are just thoughts I wanted to talk about who we are as a as a corporation that we are new we are aggressive we are competitive we are we are trying to provide a product from a new perspective rather than from an old corporate line So to me it is about selling d our identity our corporate identity along with the product what I found is that the projected costs are competitive we are kind of in the middle of the market but what I am seeing is that the market is ready for I I identified new technology but again because what I see is budget restrictions and limitations I do not know that we can bring any new technology into this thing If if we could have a technological something","The group decided to make the new product good-looking, durable and environmentally sensitive, but the opinion of User Interface had a little difference with Marketing's - the former thought the product should only have some basic functions but the latter thought there should be something special about the product to make it exclusive." "User Interface: Right I am just thinking you know with all these universal remotes that are out there how many people how many people actually use every feature that ar you know i like these trainable remotes and things like that where you know it is just so confusing to do to use all these functions Where I think the largest portion of the market is just going to you know they lost their TV remote they need another one that will work with their TV They want something that looks nice that that that is not going to break when they drop it that you know that maybe it is it is ergonomic it feels good in your hand something like that I think that is going to be where you are going to find the biggest you know market share Project Manager: So we are looking for something that looks good and just works rather than looking for any special features Is that User Interface: I think the more bells and whistles we add it is just going to cut into our into our profits Because I think as we as we add costs for things like for like if we add the voice recognition and things like that I think you know what percentage of the of the of the market is actually going to use that ? Maybe five percent you know Project Manager: But we can talk a little bit more potentially in the marketing marketing presentation about this sorry I did not mean to cut in I am not the boss","User Interface believed that most people bought a new remote control just because they lost their old one and needed another one that could work with their TV. What they wanted was something ergonomic, durable, and good-looking. Actually, few people would use every function of the controller, so they should just keep the product simple instead of adding cost for advanced features." "Marketing: So so w we can not go and pump a whole bunch of technology into this thing because all of a sudden we are going to have cost overruns So if we drop if we are going to choose to drop teletext again what are we adding to the product that makes it marketable ? Project Manager: So if we are keeping it basic we are loo loo what we are looking to sell it basically is it is just being very easy to use looking exceptionally good that sort of thing Because we really do not have anything else there do we ? Marketing: I do not I do not see it and to me if I am going to market a product for b for beauty for for design I am going to I am going to try to market it at a much higher price I need to make it special with a high price tag I do not want to make it economically g competitive I want I want to market it as exclusive So I would market this product it at eightynine Euros and come up with some really beautiful exterior design or something th but but I do not think we have that flexibility","Marketing wanted the product to be exclusive, beautiful, attractive, and environmentally sensitive. It should be special in some way so that it could sell on its own. Marketing also wanted to sell their corporate identity along with the product. However, the fact was that they could not use some cutting-edge technology due to the limitation of cost, so they had to aim at the exterior design." "Professor G: and then just broadened it a bit instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also ? So then you ve got you already have the super structure with Gaussians and H you know simple H M Ms and so forth And you you might So there was a there was a little bit of a a a a difference of opinion because I I thought that it was it s interesting to look at what features are useful But on the other hand I saw that the they had a good point that if we had something that worked for many cases before maybe starting from there a little bit Because ultimately we are going to end up with some s su kind of structure like that where you have some kind of simple HMM and you are testing the hypothesis that there is a change So so anyway I just reporting that But So why do not we do the speech nonspeech discussion ? Postdoc F: Do I I hear you you did not PhD C: so what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to to detect s speech or nonspeech pause portions in that And what I did so far is I just used our old Munich system which is an HMM ba based system with Gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech And it was a system which used only one Gaussian for silence and one Gaussian for speech And now I added multi mixture possibility for for speech and nonspeech And I did some training on on one dialogue which was transcribed by We we did a nons s speech nonspeech transcription Adam Dave and I we did for that dialogue and I trained it on that And I did some pre segmentations for for Jane And I m not sure how good they are or what what the transcribers say They they can use it or ? Postdoc F: they they think it s a terrific improvement And it real it just makes a a world of difference And y you also did some something in addition which was for those in which there nonvocalsound was quiet speakers in the mix PhD C: That that was one one one thing why I added more mixtures for for the speech So I saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers",Speaker C’s efforts to detect speech/non-speech portions in the mixed signal (using an HMM-based detector with Gaussian mixtures) have produced pre-segmentations that facilitate the transcription effort. "Postdoc F: And y you also did some something in addition which was for those in which there nonvocalsound was quiet speakers in the mix PhD C: That that was one one one thing why I added more mixtures for for the speech So I saw that there were loud loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers And so I did two mixtures one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers Grad A: And did you hand label who was loud and who was quiet or did you just ? PhD C: I did that for for five minutes of one dialogue and that was enough to to train the system And so it it adapts on while running So PhD B: What kind of front end processing did you do ?","Speaker mn014 trained the system to identify speech from loud versus quiet speakers. Such pre-segmentation modifications allow the experimenter to specify the minimum length of speech and silence portions desired, and also facilitate the identification of pauses and utterance boundaries. " "Professor G: So by doing that you know rather than setting any absolute threshold you actually can do pretty good selection of who who s talking And those those systems work very well by the way I mean so people use them in panel discussions and so forth with sound reinforcement differing in in sort of and those if Boy the guy I knew who built them built them like twenty twenty years ago so they are it s the the techniques work pretty well Postdoc F: Fantastic Cuz there is one thing that we do not have right now and that is the automatic channel identifier That that you know that would g help in terms of encoding of overlaps The the transcribers would have less disentangling to do pause if that were available Professor G: So I think you know basically you can look at some p you have to play around a little bit to figure out what the right statistic is but you compare each microphone to some statistic based on the on the overall","There is no channel identifier to help in encoding speaker overlaps. Speech uttered while laughing is problematic for ASR. So far, speaker mn005's attempts to detect speaker overlap have been unsuccessful, as it has not been possible to normalize energy as a reliable indicator of overlap." "Postdoc F: Th they are nonvocalsound making really quick progress And so my my goal was w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month And it will be I m I m I m clear that we will be able to do that Grad A: And did you forward Morgan Brian s pause thing ? Postdoc F: I sent nonvocalsound it to who did I send that to ? I sent it to a list and I thought nonvocalsound I sent it to nonvocalsound the nonvocalsound e to the local list Grad A: Oh you did ? OK So you probably did get that Postdoc F: You saw that ? So Brian did tell nonvocalsound me that nonvocalsound in fact what you said that nonvocalsound that nonvocalsound our that they are pause making progress and that he s going that nonvocalsound they are nonvocalsound going he s going to check the f the output of the first transcription and and Professor G: I mean basically it s it s all the difference in the world I mean basically he s he s on it now Postdoc F: Oh that s this is a new development Professor G: So so so this is so i it will happen Postdoc F: OK Super Super OK Great Professor G: I mean basically it s just saying that one of our one of our best people is on it you know who just does not happen to be here anymore Someone else pays him So PhD B: But about the need for transcription Postdoc F: Is not that great ? PhD B: I mean do not we did not we previously decide that the pause IBM pause transcripts would have to be pause checked anyway and possibly augmented ? So I think having a good tool is worth something no matter what Professor G: S OK That s that s a good point Grad A: and Dave Gelbart did volunteer and since he s not here I will repeat it to at least modify Transcriber which if we do not have something else that works I think that s a pretty good way of going And we discussed on some methods to do it My approach originally and I ve already hacked on it a little bit it was too slow because I was trying to display all the waveforms But he pointed out that you do not really have to I think that s a good point","The transcriber pool is making quick progress, and may be used in the future to perform other types of coding, e.g. a more detailed analysis of speaker overlap. Transcribers are coding non-speech gestures, such as audible breaths and laughter, both of which are useful for improving recognition results. " "Grad A: The waveform you are looking at does not change Postdoc F: but nonvocalsound that s that s OK cuz they are they are you know they are focused on the ear anyway the hack to preserve the overlaps nonvocalsound better would be one which creates different output files for each channel which then nonvocalsound would also serve Liz s request pause of having you know a single channel separable cleanly easily separable transcript tied to a single channel audio Professor G: Mm Have folks from NIST been in contact with you ? Postdoc F: Not directly I m trying to think if if I could have gotten it over a list I do not I do not think so Professor G: OK Well holidays may have interrupted things cuz in in in They seem to want to pause get absolutely clear on standards for transcription standards and so forth with with us Postdoc F: Oh ! This was from before December","Recent modifications to the Transcriber tool allow transcribers to listen to speech from different channels, as well as helping to preserve portions of overlapping speech, and enabling the creation of different output files for each channel for a cleaner and more segmentable transcript." "Grad A: Well maybe we should get it and if it s good enough we will arrange Windows machines to be available Postdoc F: Mm We could potentially nonvocalsound so I also wanted to be sure I mean I ve I ve seen the this this is called Praat PRAAT nonvocalsound which I guess means spee speech in Dutch or something PhD C: but then I m not sure pause that s the right thing for us Postdoc F: But In terms nonvocalsound of it being nonvocalsound Windows nonvocalsound versus Grad A: No no Praat is not Praat s multi platform Postdoc F: But I m just wondering is ? Oh I see So Praat may not be PhD C: That s not Praat It s called `` trans transedit `` pause I think Postdoc F: It s a different one PhD C: The the the tool from from Susanne Postdoc F: I see Oh I see OK OK Alright Professor G: The other thing to keep in mind I mean we ve been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data but I think our outside sponsor is actually going to kick in and ultimately that path will be smoothed out So I do not know if we have a long term need to do lots and lots of transcribing I think we had a very quick need to get something out and we would like to be able to do some later because just it s inter it s interesting But as far a you know with with any luck we will be able to wind down the larger project","The Praat software package was discussed as an alternative transcription tool capable of representing multiple channels of speech. Cross-correlation was discussed as a means of enabling speaker identification, and may be integrated into future work." "Industrial Designer: there are lots of different possibilities for the energy source We could use a basic battery but that brings with it like they need to be recharged and the bulk the size of it as well And they are not so great to dispose of environmentally There is a handpowered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torches fifty years ago A bit out of date Kinetic energy is something that is been recently developed Project Manager: What is a handpowered dynamo ? Industrial Designer: where you manually charge up the power Project Manager: Just every every once in a while ? Industrial Designer: Like you wind up something Project Manager: Just every once in a while or constantly ? Industrial Designer: Sorry ? Every once in a while I think Project Manager: Alright It would be kind of strange to always be cranking it I think Industrial Designer: But it is It would be like going a step back in time I do not think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology Whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that is being used by some watches and other devices where you just shake the device and it gives it power I mean the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work or there is solar power which we have been considering inside a building which is where it is going to be used might not be quite so useful But good to look into renewable energy always the way lots of considerations for the case like what sort of shape it would be curved or flat That is got a lot to do with the ergonomics Like how it is comfortable and s sits in the hand We do not want something that is huge and you can not pick up Or too small Or too slidy I know I have had a remote control before which you could not tell which was the front and the back","First, Industrial Designer introduced three optional sources of energy and recommended kinetic energy as they were light, novelty, and environmental-friendly. Project Manager agreed, but Marketing suggested it should be corporated with a battery backup in case something went wrong. After that, the group discussed solar energy, considering it impractical for remote control although it can be stored. With complete confidence by Industrial Designer and Project Manager, the group finally reconciled with the idea of full kinetic energy and treated it as one selling point." Industrial Designer: we also can choose what materials the we could use metal we could use rubber which might be more ideal for the antiRSI It is like the same sort of rubber that is used in stress balls and things like that so it is very like soft not so stressful on your hands again stepping back in time again there I do not think that is quite up to date with what we are looking for here titanium is not going to be possible even though it just it beyond our budget really But would have been maybe for future projects right our choice for buttons as well We have developed some we have got some good advances in technology with our research team have found some new multiple option scroll buttons I think that was brought up for they are basically quite a flexible design modern you do not have to use individual buttons You can just slide up and down I am sure we are all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads,"Industrial Designer indicated rubber was softer than metal, cheaper than titanium that would exceed the budget, and more flexible to color alternatives. Although rubber couldn't work as the interior to protect innards, rubber coating would reduce the impact if the remote control was dropped." "User Interface: But I think we are going to go with the command interface anyway to make it more simplistic But the we could incorporate some of the graphical user points as in just to make it m nicer to look at maybe Project Manager: What do you mean ? User Interface: Like I can not think of an example but Sort of like little pictures rather than Project Manager: Oh like how the buttons User Interface: Like a little sound Instead of saying volume like a little speaker or something Project Manager: So it is a keyboard in the shape of it right ? User Interface: the co we have decided that the command interface would be the most useful for a remote control As it would be less complicated and the controls would be more userfriendly the remote control would be cheaper to design so that we would have more money in the budget to target the design area of the interface You know make it more trendy and original We will have more money if we keep it simple Project Manager: I am sure i like kinetic energy would probably dip into the budget A bit more too User Interface: Seeing as it is quite a new technology We we also have to keep in mind when we are designing our more userfriendly remote control that a lot of interfaces consist of a clutter of buttons that that their functions colours and forms are not always helpful Industrial Designer: That is true That is in like the buttons with all the different like colours for different choices and things It can be a bit overwhelming User Interface: And that all interfaces are different So that does not improve the use of the produ product so we need to come up with something that is easy to understand And maybe learn from the mistakes of other interfaces that can be too complicated for people to use","User Interface regarded the command interface as useful for remote control. It was less complicated and more user-friendly. In comparison, the interface consisting of many buttons, colors, and functions wouldn't improve the use of the product and was challenging to understand. As for expense, the command interface was also cheaper. Therefore, more budget could be targeted to the design area." "Marketing: so this report is about trendwatching basically so we can live up to our our purpose of having a very fashionable remote control Sorry There we go So just so you know my method was mainly web webbased research this time around I also spoke with fashion experts in Milan New York and Paris And I looked at the design reports from previous years here at Real Remote just so c we can work off of them see how fashions have changed so I will list the three most important aspects that I have come across and they they are each more important than the one that comes after it the first one is that there should be a fancy lookandfeel instead of the current functional lookandfeel this should be our priority as we have been saying The second most important aspect is that a remote sh that the remote control should be technologically innovative So I think we have done a lot of talking about that just with lighting and the buttons and the faceplates so it looks like we will be able to keep on track with that And the third most important aspect is that the remote control should be easy to use So pretty basic there And the recent fashion update according to fashionwatchers in Paris and Milan is that fruit and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes shoes and furniture also in contra in contrast to last year the feel of the material is expected to be spongy Again we have already discussed that with rubber versus hard plastic buttons So my personal preferences here of course as we we have already talked about the personal faceplates in this meeting and I would like to stick to that The fruits and vegetable themes I do not know if that is going to work for us It sounds something that you would use on kitchenware I do not know if we want to do it on remotes It could be one of the options Maybe for the television that people have in their kitchen the temporary lightup idea sounds like we are going to stick to that And then tying in a trendy look with userfriendliness Project Manager: it is the fruits and vegetables is the only area that I find rather jarring Everything else we can really we can really do according to our plans already given the market But fruits and vegetables seems a very strange idea for a remote control Marketing: It is it is a little but it it is everywhere So maybe we I have seen a lot of purses with olives on them you know But I I think I think if we stick to TV based you know maybe TV shows or Project Manager: But they still need to fit into peoples decor though Industrial Designer: We I think we possibly could take a more abstract design Like look at the basic shapes of different fruits and vegetables And then just really like strip it down to like really basic shapes I mean we do not have to make something in the shape of a strawberry but it could have the curves of a strawberry or something Or a strawberry seed or a leaf Marketing: The The essence of strawberry Industrial Designer: Or just like you know really make it a quite abstract if that is fits in more with what we are doing Instead of fruits and vegetables just if you look at it straightforward it is a bit It does not s quite fit in with the trendy well obviously it does if that is the current theme But may maybe we could go more directly I do not know But initially I do not know I think if we just sort of tone it down a bit Project Manager: like more like photos of fruit on on our product Marketing: One thing I was thinking though is","In the presentation, Marketing listed the three most important aspects of remote control. The priority was to have a fancy look-and-feel instead of the traditional one. Secondly, the remote control should be technologically innovative. Moreover, it should be easy to use. Marketing also mentioned that fruit and vegetables would be the popular theme this year. In this way, the group turned to discuss some ideas about combining this theme with their design, like applying an abstract design and putting photos on the product." "Industrial Designer: But if we are having a simplified display anyway w that we probably will not have to focus so much on that It will be more the on the numbers and the volume Project Manager: It would be more a command interface and then Industrial Designer: I suppose we need to think of symbols for like the volume display and stuff like that Marketing: So it is just draf graphical for the pointing aspect ? The infrared is like that is considered a User Interface: No I think it is to do with the actual symbols that are on the that is on the buttons of the remote control and per Marketing: So when it says pointing device that does not include User Interface: Well it could be a wee scroller thing and something could come up on the screen Project Manager: I think they are talking about LCD type things User Interface: But I think we are going to go with the command interface anyway to make it more simplistic But the we could incorporate some of the graphical user points as in just to make it m nicer to look at maybe Project Manager: What do you mean ? User Interface: Like I can not think of an example but Sort of like little pictures rather than Project Manager: Oh like how the buttons User Interface: Like a little sound Instead of saying volume like a little speaker or something","Industrial Designer thought that the vegetable and fruit theme could be applied with a more abstract design, like stripping it down to basic shapes or curves. Also, as a result of market research, design development should stick to this theme rather than moving to animals." "Project Manager: Alright the next decision is chip on print I do not exactly know what that means Industrial Designer: it was whether we went for the simple the regular or the advanced chip And that linked in with what buttons we would going to have so Project Manager: Right and we were going for more simplistic style right ? Industrial Designer: so that was without the LCD So that means we are not doing the advanced So it depends on whether we wanted the scroll buttons or just the push buttons Project Manager: I think we decided on the pushbuttons right ? Industrial Designer: so that is the simple Project Manager: Would we need a more advanced one for the lighting the interior lighting system ? Industrial Designer: So it is probably going to be the regular chip that we are going to need So it is a medium Project Manager: That is called medium or regular ? Industrial Designer: So regular chip Regular sorry Marketing: Oh is regular not simple ? User Interface: It is for the lighting Industrial Designer: because of the lighting that we have decided to put in as well",The group selected the regular-style chip without the LCD display. It only had simple push buttons except for a more advanced one for the interior lighting system. "Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Chair My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences I tabled these amendments in response to this committees recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report so I have responded to that I have already made a commitment to a highintensity awarenessraising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent should the Bill be passed I have considered amendments 1A to 1E which have been tabled by Janet FinchSaunders and which relate to the duty to raise awareness Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding We do not think actually that this adds anything to the Government amendment which already mentions awareness It makes the awarenessraising duty openended with no time limit which is not necessary By commencement messaging around the change in the law will be embedded The awarenessraising campaign will continue for a number of years Therefore an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required I understand of course that the awarenessraising campaign needs to be comprehensive well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change and understand how to respond to it But I do not think it is helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups such as visitors to Wales on the face of the Bill—that is the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others In relation to children the committee will know that I am fully committed to children ’ s rights and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions An additional due regard requirement such as the one set out in amendment 1D relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making Similarly I do not think it is necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awarenessraising campaign as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C That level of detail I do not think is for the face of the Bill Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group under the auspices of the Bill ’ s strategic implementation group working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awarenessraising campaign And really their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence it does not create a new offence And in this context it does not make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point safeguarding is everyone is business and as now the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child I am asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4 and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Deputy Minister Are there other Members who wish to speak ? Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E which relate to the Deputy Ministers amendment on the duty to promote public awareness While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law the Deputy Ministers amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1 An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I have tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill but serves as a duty for future administrations Amendment 1A : primarily amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law I do not think it is enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Governments objectives have been achieved Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors Instead of an optout system or a civil offence this law will remove a defence for parents information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives potentially separate parents and could affect employment chances As such whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— Lynne Neagle AM: Janet Dawn is asking if you will take an intervention Dawn Bowden AM: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there is been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it is been passed ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: There is a lot of legislation The first Assembly term when I was here— Dawn Bowden AM: Yes what I am asking— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I am trying to respond— Dawn Bowden AM: What I am asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation Even today as I sit here the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales So therefore I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved and I shall speak now— Dawn Bowden AM: With respect Chair that is not the question I asked Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in the debate if you would like to make a more substantive contribution on this Yes Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications And that is what we are talking about here Members—the implications of removing this defence Strikingly the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following : the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that lawabiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill Additionally the committee found that while the current Welsh Governments intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt future Governments may have less of a commitment This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement Furthermore the Children Equal Protection from Assault Scotland Bill quite clearly notes that under section 2 the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment Therefore I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment Interruption Should our amendment be agreed— Lynne Neagle AM: Are you taking an intervention ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No I would rather crack on to be honest Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in the debate Hefin Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should our amendment to be agreed we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1 Amendment 1B : amendment 1B is in line with the committees recommendation 9 which stated that as part of a public awareness campaign there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children During evidence at Stage 1 the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about hardertoreach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence For example Children in Wales Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need Now while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that hardertoreach groups receive this information a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awarenessraising campaign I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation through our amendment but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents As will be expanded upon later the Deputy Minister has relied upon the Parenting : Give it Time campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising However this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of hardertoreach groups Amendment 1C : amendment 1C supports the committees recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted We urged at Stage 1 that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment regardless of the Bill other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded In particular some were worried that children who may not realise the implications of reporting could make allegations that are actually untrue While we would expect the awarenessraising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations this could also be reflected among adults if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you I have got several speakers I have got Suzy Davies first then Dawn Bowden Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much Chair Thank you Minister and thank you Janet for that I think it is worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations and those recommendations were made after taking evidence from the public at large but also you as well So that suggests that at that stage we were not reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations into our report Now I recognise that you have moved some way on some of these amendments and we will been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups But the one thing to bear in mind here is this is legislation now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly not of Government and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awareness campaign then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awarenessraising campaign The list that Janet has given is a minimum The reason these have been tabled individually and independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be so it will be disappointing to hear that you are rejecting them all and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that if you are going to introduce specifics via regulation at the moment we have no reassurance about how you are going to do that—about what input the Assembly on behalf of our constituents could have in designing that public awarenessraising campaign Unless you accept some amendments in other groups that is the position with this Bill : the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awarenessraising campaign In terms of it being nontime limited I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting neverending campaign of awareness raising But if you bear in mind that seven years after the introduction of this Bill there is going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill what is the point of doing that if you do not then have an obligation should the reports require it to be necessary to continue promoting the changes in the law ? I accept that that can not go on for centuries but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive and which has a reach beyond our boundaries I think is genuinely a mistake Finally you mention that safeguarding is everyone is business I think that is true but I think Janet FinchSaunders was right to say that members of the public ordinary individuals not professionals will need assurance that they are doing the right thing The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that although that can be read in that way but it is to help them be certain that they are doing the right thing If this is going to be up to the individual as you have said and the committee itself was not reassured that individuals would know what to do perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage 3 if you are going to reject this amendment how you can reassure members of the public that if they are going to intervene on the back of this law they are making things better not worse Dawn Bowden AM: My comments really relate to ongoing awarenessraising campaigns which I think all of us would want to see and would appreciate in any changes in legislation My point really is that we have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years and I am not aware of any legislation where on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awarenessraising campaigns on an indefinite basis It seems to me that for some reason you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity on this—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to be included in it It could also I assume Deputy Minister be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use But the point I am trying to make is that I do not believe that any piece of legislation requires ongoing and indefinite awarenessraising campaigns and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales Again we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of the UK I am not aware that there is a necessity for awarenessraising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they do not And similarly when we go to visit countries that have different legislation we do not necessarily know what legislation we are going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by their laws So my key point Chair is just the necessity of an ongoing endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill Hefin David AM: My comments follow logically from Dawn Bowdens comments particularly in relation to amendments 1D and 1E What you would be doing is that this Senedd if this was on the face of the Bill the duty on Ministers would be putting the duty on Ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth Senedd into the next Senedd term and putting that duty on those newly elected Ministers after that which in principle would be against the principles of binding— Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin are you taking an intervention from Suzy ? Suzy Davies AM: When you have finished your point Hefin David AM: I am happy to take it now because I was going to sum up by agreeing with the point you made actually Suzy Davies AM: I would love that You referred to this potentially binding Ministers in future Assemblies at the moment we have got an implementation period and a fiveyear reporting period that takes any reporting on this Act into the Assembly after next I am wondering if you are going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that later on Hefin David AM: Well when we get to that amendment I will make comments if I feel it necessary But at this point in time we are talking about amendments 1D and 1E and particularly in relation to 1D and 1E it just is not necessary given the fact that—I will not call it a concession because I think you made a reasonable point about the Minister making a statement at Stage 3 and I think Dawn Bowden actually supported that as well That therefore makes those amendments unnecessary Given that in these circumstances it is unnecessary to bind Ministers in future Parliaments And that is my key point really which is why I would not vote for those two amendments Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much I just want to speak against amendment 1A and also amendment 1B I do not believe that there is a need for an indefinite campaign as is outlined in 1A I agree entirely that there is a need for a campaign during the period of change and therefore I am very glad to see that the Government has brought forward amendment 1 and I do hope that there will be a real push during the period of change In terms of amendment 1B I do have sympathy with what is being said here but I believe that any kind of information or campaign in terms of enabling parents to learn about alternatives to physical punishment should be the subject of continual farreaching work by the Government through various programmes and it should not be an addition on the face of this Bill which deals with a small change to the common law And then on 1D also if I may—I do not agree with this either Again I believe that there is a need to promote awareness amongst children but that should happen through the childrens rights convention as part of a broader programme to promote childrens rights Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Siân I call on the Deputy Minister to speak then Julie Morgan AM: Thank you all very much for your contributions to the debate and your comments on these amendments today I just want to reemphasise that it is as a result of the recommendation from this committee that we are putting this duty to have the awareness campaign on the face of the Bill and I absolutely recognise the crucial role awareness raising has to play in supporting the implementation of the Bill I am very grateful for and appreciate the committees interest and the work that you have done in this area of work But I do think that these amendments are unnecessary If we go through them amendment 1A is really openended on promoting public awareness We are committed to a highintensity awareness over six years from Royal Assent and there is an expert stakeholder group supporting us with the development of the awareness campaign All the points that you have been making will be being considered by that group I think the level of detail on the face of the Bill is not needed Suzy Davies AM: Would you just take an intervention on that just to help me understand ? A twoyear awarenessraising campaign—how have you concluded that— I thought it was two years before section 1 comes into force Julie Morgan AM: We have got six years from Royal Assent Suzy Davies AM: Oh so it is going to continue beyond section 1 coming into force— Julie Morgan AM: Yes Oh yes it is going to continue Definitely yes So I do not think that is needed amendment 1A Amendment 1B about support available to parents and how to access it—again this level of detail is not required on the face of the Bill I just want to emphasise we have got this expert implementation group who are working on all aspects of this Bill many of whom represent organisations who gave evidence to this committee The Bill is a simple one with a clear purpose It aims to remove the defence of reasonable punishment I think lots of these amendments are very helpful and interesting but would be discussed and would be acted on in the normal pathway of planning and development and they are not required on the face of the Bill So I am not putting them down I am just saying that we do not need them to be there on the face of the Bill And then amendment 1C—the information about how to raise concerns—I do repeat that safeguarding is everybodys business and the same issues apply now as will after this defence has been removed Amendment 1D—Ministers to have regard to the need to promote awareness among children—now childrens rights are absolutely enshrined in our policy making and the entire Bill is about protecting the rights of children So it is unnecessary duplication So we hope that the Bill will remain focused Again in terms of visitors the level of detail is simply not required on the face of the Bill Our awarenessraising campaign will be comprehensive And then to pick up a few of the other points that were raised revisions to the impact assessments are being considered as part of my commitment to update the explanatory memorandum ahead of Stage 3 So there will be more details on the regulatory impact assessment The issue that was raised about the Scottish Bill that it refers to understanding—now the Scottish Bill was not a Government Bill it was a private Members Bill and our view is that nothing is added by adding the understanding awareness is sufficient So basically I think that the points made have been very useful but I urge committee members to accept my amendments but to reject those proposed by Janet FinchSaunders as they are unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awarenessraising duty needs to achieve Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Deputy Minister Before disposing of amendment 1 we will deal with the amendments to that amendment Janet do you wish to move amendment 1A ? Thank you The question is that amendment 1A be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection we have an objection I therefore take a vote by show of hands The question is that amendment 1A be agreed All those in favour please raise your hands All those against There voted two in favour four against So amendment 1A is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 1B ? The question is that amendment 1B be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection I will take a vote by show of hands All those in favour of amendment 1B All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 1B is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 1C ? Thank you The question is that amendment 1C be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection All those in favour of amendment 1C please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against and amendment 1C is not agreed Janet do you want to move amendment 1D ? Thank you The question is that amendment 1D be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection as there is an objection I will take a vote All those in favour of amendment 1D please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against and amendment 1D is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 1E ? The question is that amendment 1E be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection we will take a vote All those in favour of amendment 1E please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against and amendment 1E is not agreed If amendment 1 is not agreed amendment 2C and amendment 4 will fall Deputy Minister do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 1 ?","There was a debate of whether amendment 1 and 4, and 1A to 1E should be accepted or rejected. The Deputy Minister firstly expressed her opinions. She was in favor of amendments 1 and 4, but against 1A to 1E, mainly because she thought that level of details were not necessarily on the face of the Bill. However, Janet Finch-Saunders thought the Deputy Minister's amendment lacked a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1 and explained one by one from 1A to 1E why those amendments were important. Afterwards, there was a short debate about whether to accept those amendments from Suzy Davies, Dawn Bowden, Hefin David and Sian Gwenllian. Suzy Davies supported amendment 1A to 1E, while others all against them. At last, they took a vote and it ended up with rejecting amendment 1A to 1E and agreeing with amendment 1." Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Chair My amendments 1 and 4 will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence of reasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences I tabled these amendments in response to this committees recommendation—this was a recommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report so I have responded to that I have already made a commitment to a highintensity awarenessraising campaign over approximately six years from Royal Assent should the Bill be passed I have considered amendments 1A to 1E which have been tabled by Janet FinchSaunders and which relate to the duty to raise awareness Amendment 1A introduces a reference to public understanding We do not think actually that this adds anything to the Government amendment which already mentions awareness It makes the awarenessraising duty openended with no time limit which is not necessary By commencement messaging around the change in the law will be embedded The awarenessraising campaign will continue for a number of years Therefore an ongoing duty referring specifically to the law change would not be required I understand of course that the awarenessraising campaign needs to be comprehensive well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need to be aware of the law change and understand how to respond to it But I do not think it is helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups such as visitors to Wales on the face of the Bill—that is the approach taken in amendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others In relation to children the committee will know that I am fully committed to children ’ s rights and that Welsh Ministers are already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions An additional due regard requirement such as the one set out in amendment 1D relating specifically to the need to promote awareness among children is not needed This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children ’ s rights at the heart of our policy making Similarly I do not think it is necessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awarenessraising campaign as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C That level of detail I do not think is for the face of the Bill Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group under the auspices of the Bill ’ s strategic implementation group working with my officials and the expert stakeholder group on the awarenessraising campaign And really their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove a defence to an existing criminal offence it does not create a new offence And in this context it does not make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raise concerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point safeguarding is everyone is business and as now the public have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child I am asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4 and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because this would place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill,"Her amendments 1 and 4 would place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law. She had already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over about six years from Royal Assent if the Bill passed. She thought amendments 1A to 1E which relate to the duty to raise awareness were not necessary. In specific, amendment 1A was open-ended on promoting public awareness. All the raised points would be considered by another group, but she thought the level of the detail on the face of the Bill was not needed, and same reasons for amendment 1B and 1D. As for the amendment 1C which was about how to raise concerns, the Deputy Minister thought the safeguarding was everybody's business. In conclusion, she asked for the support of members for amendments 1 and 4, and asked to reject amendments 1A to 1E, as those were unnecessary provisions in terms of what the awareness-raising duty needed to achieve." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E which relate to the Deputy Ministers amendment on the duty to promote public awareness While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of this controversial change in the law the Deputy Ministers amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1 An important thread runs throughout each and every amendment that I have tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill but serves as a duty for future administrations Amendment 1A : primarily amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law I do not think it is enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of the coming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Governments objectives have been achieved Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour the consequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors Instead of an optout system or a civil offence this law will remove a defence for parents information on which could be there on their records for the rest of their lives potentially separate parents and could affect employment chances As such whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign it is important too that the Welsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands— Lynne Neagle AM: Janet Dawn is asking if you will take an intervention Dawn Bowden AM: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislation where there is been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it is been passed ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: There is a lot of legislation The first Assembly term when I was here— Dawn Bowden AM: Yes what I am asking— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I am trying to respond— Dawn Bowden AM: What I am asking for is : can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns running indefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation Even today as I sit here the public are not aware of many of those pieces of legislation This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales So therefore I think there is a necessity for both children and parents to become involved and I shall speak now— Dawn Bowden AM: With respect Chair that is not the question I asked Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in the debate if you would like to make a more substantive contribution on this Yes Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the public understands the implications And that is what we are talking about here Members—the implications of removing this defence Strikingly the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following : the potential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonable punishment it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that lawabiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill Additionally the committee found that while the current Welsh Governments intention to deliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt future Governments may have less of a commitment This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promote awareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement Furthermore the Children Equal Protection from Assault Scotland Bill quite clearly notes that under section 2 the Scottish Ministers must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment Therefore I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment Interruption Should our amendment be agreed— Lynne Neagle AM: Are you taking an intervention ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No I would rather crack on to be honest Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in the debate Hefin Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should our amendment to be agreed we also request that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1 Amendment 1B : amendment 1B is in line with the committees recommendation 9 which stated that as part of a public awareness campaign there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children During evidence at Stage 1 the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about hardertoreach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence For example Children in Wales Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need Now while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that hardertoreach groups receive this information a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure that future Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awarenessraising campaign I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation through our amendment but this does not explicitly include a duty to provide details about support for parents As will be expanded upon later the Deputy Minister has relied upon the Parenting : Give it Time campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising However this is only an online resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of hardertoreach groups Amendment 1C : amendment 1C supports the committees recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted We urged at Stage 1 that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment regardless of the Bill other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims of abuse that are unfounded In particular some were worried that children who may not realise the implications of reporting could make allegations that are actually untrue While we would expect the awarenessraising campaign to include the consequences of false accusations this could also be reflected among adults if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case of assault","While it was imperative that the public were made aware of this controversial change in the law, she thought the Deputy Minister's amendment lacked a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at stage 1. For example, Amendment 1A changed amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. Amendment 1B stated that there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when discipline their children, which she thought was very important to parents. Amendment 1C explained that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice was provided on what people could do if they had seen a child being physically assaulted, and this could help raise public awareness of how they could report and in what situations they could report." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you I move amendment 1 in the name of the Deputy Minister The question is that amendment 1 be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection we have an objection so we will take a vote by show of hands All those in favour of amendment 1 All those against So there voted four in favour two against and amendment 1 is agreed We will move on now then to group 2 which relates to the duty to report on the effect of the legislation The lead amendment in the group is amendment 2 in the name of the Deputy Minister I move amendment 2 in the Deputy Ministers name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group Julie Morgan AM: Thank you Chair The amendments in this group are to do with the postimplementation review of the Bill and I believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee so you strongly influenced this amendment It is clear from Members contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at Stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of postimplementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment I have already provided assurance that I agree with the importance placed on such a review both in the explanatory memorandum and during Stage 1 scrutiny I also made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a postimplementation review on the face of the Bill I have done this with amendment 2 Amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after Royal Assent As I said in my responses to the Stage 1 committee report and as set out in the explanatory memorandum the postimplementation review of this Bill will not be a single piece of work but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1 Firstly we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment The surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awarenessraising campaign Secondly through a dedicated task and finish group we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the Bill and to consider the possible impact on services Turning to amendment 2C this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced This amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what I think is a priority for the implementation of this Bill : that is given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders I also think this amendment is not required because as I have already stated we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising In June I shared the findings of a representative survey which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation I shared this with the committee Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Deputy Minister I open it up for discussion now then Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair I speak to amendments 2C excluding 2D to 2K which relate to the Deputy Ministers amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment Again I must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and longlasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment Amendments 2E to 2K outline what we would expect to be within this report and we would wish to see a commitment from the Deputy Minister to ensure the National Assembly for Wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report Amendment 2C requests that the Welsh Government prepare a report on the awarenessraising campaign and lays it before the Assembly before section 1 commences As I have outlined under my amendments in group 1 the understanding of the public about the implications of the Bill can not be sidelined Although the Deputy Minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign we as the National Assembly for Wales must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins As I noted under amendments 1B to 1E there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the Bills effect I am sure that the Deputy Minister will agree that the hardertoreach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the Bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness It is therefore important for the Assembly to be able to determine whether the awarenessraising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people As will also be elaborated under amendment 2D it is extremely important that we as the Parliament of Wales are fully apprised of the awarenessraising campaigns impact Before we implement what will be a criminal offence it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign Therefore I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaigns effects before section 1 commences Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Janet Suzy Davies Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Chair Deputy Minister first of all can I just say thank you for your opening remarks about the possibility of perhaps doing some work around amendment 2B ? I will come to that a little bit later if I may I just want to begin by commenting briefly on what you said about why you will be rejecting amendment 2C here I actually do not think that this amendment should affect or jeopardise the commencement date in any way at all It is an operational requirement to get this work done before the commencement date that is in the draft Bill at the moment So failing to meet that would be as a result of operations not going well rather than anything intrinsic in the Bill so I am not sure I can accept your argument on that And on 2D—very pleased to hear that you would be willing to introduce something about laying rather than publishing at Stage 3 but in the spirit of recognising that this is the legislature perhaps I could encourage you just to accept the amendment at this stage because it does not make any difference Your amendment is going to pass and this amendment to it would be—I think the gesture there would be very much appreciated I will be speaking mainly to amendments 2A and 2B but I want to begin again by thanking you for moving some way on this and considering amendments to the Bill on the issue of reporting because I know you were keen to avoid amendments in the name of simplicity you mentioned it earlier But this is not a newid bychan I am afraid Siân the terms and the effect of this Bill are quite extensive and it does need the reassurances if you like necessary to mitigate potentially disproportionate effects of this Bill on families where parents actions had been lawful up until this point in statute It does need statutory underpinning So I am grateful to you for accepting this duty I know that you are sincere that you want this duty to report to show that the Bill is effective in stopping smacking as a punishment and also that it is not as harmful to parents as perhaps some of us fear But if this were me bringing forward this Bill I think I would want to show the world that I was doing the right thing a lot sooner than you appear to wish to do Amendment 2 means that the efficacy of the Bill will not formally be assessed until seven years after it has passed There are Acts on the statute book that have lasted a lot less time than that If you are relying on the twoyear period before section 1 comes into operation to do much of the heavy lifting on the culture change and I think that is what you are expecting—you know showing a reduction in the incidence of physical punishment reducing the number of and indeed the likelihood of parents putting themselves in the path of criminal liability once those two years are up—I really would have thought you would want people to know sooner or as soon as the first possible opportunity on that Waiting five years I think will diminish the ability of you to prove the efficacy of those initial two years and this is why I am grateful to you for your offer because there may be a way where we can overcome that If the trend of culture change is continuing after year 3—so basically in the first year after section 1 comes into effect—that is great but there is a possibility it is going to reverse Again I do not think I would want to wait five years to find that out For myself I think one year would probably be enough but I think three years is a reasonable compromise as opposed to five years for a reporting period I think seven years is just way too long for a formal evaluation of a Bills effectiveness I can not see the reason for quite that length of time—I know you have talked about New Zealand—but neither can the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee I think that is worth pointing out When they took the step of recommending this duty to evaluate and report they also took the step of suggesting a threeyear reporting period being more in keeping with other postlegislative scrutiny That is something I think we perhaps need to bear in mind now as we enter this period of the consolidation of law Fiveseven years is really something of an outlier and while that might have been appropriate perhaps in New Zealand I do not think that fits in with our timetables generally here in Wales and of course there are other countries that have introduced this over a period of years and I note that you have not drawn on them in order to support your argument So can I urge Members and the Minister to consider the arguments behind these amendments ? I do not think it is going to reassure anyone—you may want to intervene at this point Hefin—that we not only will not hear in this Assembly we will not hear in the next Assembly about the formal evaluation of this unless I follow— Hefin David AM: I will not intervene I will speak Yes I will make the point Suzy Davies AM: Yes I will take the intervention Lynne Neagle AM: No he does not want to make an intervention— Hefin David AM: I will not do an intervention I will speak Lynne Neagle AM: —he will make a contribution Hefin David AM: Well let me put the intervention— I will do it as an intervention then I just feel that—I take your point and I was expecting it The point I was making about 1D and 1E is they close down choices to Ministers in future Assemblies An evaluative practice would actually open up those choices and give future Parliaments more options with regard to this Bill so I think it is entirely consistent I do not think the Minister in putting in amendment 2 was trying to undermine my argument Actually I think she is being constructive by doing that and I think amendment 2 is a practical amendment that is quite helpful and its consequence will be to open up choices to future Parliaments whereas my objection to 1D and 1E is they close those down Suzy Davies AM: well as I say I think actually the Deputy Ministers offer of a threeyear interim period might be part of a resolution to this Because I am not 100 per cent sure I accept your argument either because it closes it down for the interim period if we do not move on with the Deputy Ministers suggestion—which I will talk about now actually Because I am tempted to accept your offer It absolutely makes sense and it is clearly made with the best good faith here But I need some clarity on what you would allow this Assembly to do in helping define the terms of that interim report Because you have been very clear that you do not want to accept the things that Janet FinchSaunders has been talking about in a final report and yet I can tell you we want to hear about these things So if you are in a position where you can give a commitment at Stage 3 not only to introduce an interim report but that you will consult with perhaps this committee—I will leave it to you—on the contents of that interim report what we would want to see tested then I will be minded not to move amendment 2B If you can not give me that reassurance then I am going to move it anyway and we will return to it at Stage 3 if you do not mind Just a final point on this issue of reporting within three months rather than as soon as practicable and I do take your point that there may be a misalignment with reporting periods from the organisations you hope to talk to Again at Stage 3 I am happy if you want to make three months six months or something like that but as soon as practicable is open ended and what you think is practicable may be very different from what I or my constituents think is practicable So I do not want to stick with what is practicable I would like you to put a date on this If it is a case that you think six months is long enough for data gathering and reporting from third parties I think that is fairly reasonable as well but I am not minded to allow you to just keep this open ended Thank you Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes I welcome adding to the Bill through amendment 2 and what you have said today also that you are willing to provide an interim report and bring an amendment forward to allow that through the Bill and to lay a report before the Assembly I am interested in what Suzy is saying and have a lot of sympathy with trying to tie it down to specific time periods and not say when it will be practicable Therefore I would encourage you not to move your amendments if you have the confirmation that you want to hear this morning from the Minister regarding these issues Suzy Davies AM: I would like to Thanks Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Any other Members ? No Deputy Minister Julie Morgan AM: Well just to start off on that point I think your suggestion about how we consult and discuss I think I am very happy to accept that So I am happy to discuss that with you and with the committee before the third Stage So I hope you will consider removing— Right thank you Well just to go on to cover some of the points that have been raised on the issue of training now I think Janet raised a number of points about training and we do have an operations procedures processes and training task and finish group as part of our implementation work and they are considering guidance and training requirements There are many professional bodies represented on that group many of whom I think have given evidence here today and they have really got a chance to have their say The officials are also looking at training as part of the revision of the explanatory memorandum at Stage 3 so there will be more information about training there But we have this group looking at it and it is very key Generally I think that all the contributions are very helpful and I know they are meant in the spirit of trying to improve the legislation I can not support amendments 2A 2C and amendments 2E to 2K because these amendments make little difference in terms of practical effect to what we have in the Bill already or they are covered by the Government amendments that I have moved But I do hope the committee is reassured that we are committed to undertaking a very thorough multifaceted review of the impact of the legislation that includes tracking public attitudes and considering impacts on public services Now tracking the public attitudes will be going along at regular points so there is no question there of having to wait we will be having regular reporting of public attitudes Suzy Davies AM: Would you take an intervention there Deputy Minister ? Thank you very much Of course I appreciate that you will not be supporting these amendments but can you give us some indication of how many of the areas of interest to us you will be reporting on ? So even if this is not a statutory commitment what exactly from our list our wish list here would you be prepared to include in your evaluation ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I would actually have thought all of them All the areas you have raised are very relevant I think Obviously this is not a statutory thing I am saying but— Suzy Davies AM: No no and this is not a— Julie Morgan AM: Yes but considering those points you have put forward I think all of them have got a great deal of relevance We will certainly be reporting to the group to consider any of the ideas that you have suggested and in particular with the data collection and the monitoring task and finish group which is about developing methods to collect data we will be putting forward some of the suggestions that you have made on those issues So I do not see any problem with that at all So as I say I can not support the amendments I am hopeful you may withdraw the two amendments—I think one of yours and it was one of Janets was not it—so that we could work together on those before the next stage Because I am sympathetic to your views on these matters and I think they do reflect some of the discussions in the committee as well So I would be happy to work with you to bring forward the amendments at Stage 3 In line with the recommendations of the Finance Committee further details of the costs associated with the postimplementation review will be provided in a revised regulatory impact assessment at Stage 3 So I think at this point I would ask that Members reject the nonGovernment amendments and agree to my amendments 2 and 5 which will ultimately achieve the same policy aim without the need for unnecessary detail on the Bill with the exception obviously of those two amendments which I am prepared to look at a way of moving forward on Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Deputy Minister Before disposing of amendment 2 we will deal with the amendments to that amendment Janet do you wish to move amendment 2C ? The question is that amendment 2C be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection We have an objection so I will take a vote by show of hands All those in favour of amendment 2C please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2C is lost Suzy do you wish to move amendment 2A ? Suzy Davies AM: I move amendment 2A yes Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 2A be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection we will take a vote All those in favour of amendment 2A please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2A is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2D ? Janet do you wish to move amendment 2E ? The question is that amendment 2E be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection we will take a vote All those in favour of amendment 2E please show All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2E is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2F ? The question is that amendment 2F be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection We have an objection so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2F ? All those against So there voted two in favour four against and amendment 2F is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2G ? The question is that amendment 2G be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection can I see all those in favour of amendment 2G ? All those against So there voted two in favour four against and amendment 2G is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2H ? The question is that amendment 2H be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection We have an objection so can I see all those in favour of amendment 2H ? All those against ? So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2H is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2I ? The question is that amendment 2I be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection Can I see all those in favour of amendment 2I ? All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2I is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2J ? The question is that amendment 2J be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection We have an objection so I will take a vote Can I see all those in favour of 2J ? All those against ? So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2J is not agreed Janet do you wish to move amendment 2K ? The question is that amendment 2K be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection I will therefore take a vote by show of hands All those in favour of amendment 2K ? All those against ? So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 2K is not agreed Suzy do you wish to move amendment 2B ? Suzy Davies AM: In view of the Deputy Ministers reassurances I will not move this amendment today but obviously I reserve the right to bring something back if we can not reach consensus Thank you Lynne Neagle AM: Does any other Member wish to move amendment 2B ? no Thank you We will move on then If amendment 2 is not agreed amendment 5 will fall Deputy Minister do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 2 ? Thank you The question is that amendment 2 be agreed Does any Member object ? Amendment 2—","The Deputy Minister firstly expressed her opinions. She thought amendment 2C would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 was commenced, and she thought this was unnecessary and was in conflict with what she thought was a priority for the implementation of this Bill. She also thought this amendment was not required because they were preparing to assess the effectiveness of the awareness raising. Then Janet Finch-Saunder expressed her opinion, and spoke to amendments 2C excluding 2D to 2K. After this, Suzy Davies proposed several opinions against the Deputy Minister. In specific, Suzy Davies did not think the amendment should affect the commencement date at all, to respond to the comments the Deputy Minister made for amendment 2C. At last, they took a vote and ended up with losing 2C - 2K, and accepting amendment 2." Julie Morgan AM: Thank you Chair The amendments in this group are to do with the postimplementation review of the Bill and I believe there was also a committee recommendation to this end from your committee so you strongly influenced this amendment It is clear from Members contributions to this group and recommendations by the committee at Stage 1 that they share my commitment to the importance of postimplementation review of the effect of the abolition of the defence of reasonable punishment I have already provided assurance that I agree with the importance placed on such a review both in the explanatory memorandum and during Stage 1 scrutiny I also made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a postimplementation review on the face of the Bill I have done this with amendment 2 Amendment 5 sets out that this provision will come into force the day after Royal Assent As I said in my responses to the Stage 1 committee report and as set out in the explanatory memorandum the postimplementation review of this Bill will not be a single piece of work but a continuous programme of work during the years following the commencement of section 1 Firstly we will continue to conduct attitudinal surveys which will be used to track changes in attitude towards the physical punishment of children and prevalence of parents reporting that they use physical punishment The surveys will also be used to monitor the effectiveness of our awarenessraising campaign Secondly through a dedicated task and finish group we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to establish robust methods for capturing meaningful data relating to the Bill and to consider the possible impact on services Turning to amendment 2C this amendment would require Welsh Ministers to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced This amendment is unnecessary and is in conflict with what I think is a priority for the implementation of this Bill : that is given certainty on the commencement date and in enabling us to work towards this with our partners and stakeholders I also think this amendment is not required because as I have already stated we are preparing to assess the effectiveness of our awareness raising In June I shared the findings of a representative survey which establishes a baseline on public awareness and opinion towards physical punishment of children and the proposed legislation I shared this with the committee,"The Deputy Minister had provided assurance that she agreed with the importance placed on the post-implementation review, and made a commitment to bring forward a Government amendment to put a duty to undertake a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill. Amendment 2C would require Welsh Minister to prepare and lay before the Assembly a report on the effect of their promotion of public awareness before section 1 is commenced, and the Deputy Minister thought this amendment was unnecessary and was in conflict with what she thought was a priority for the implementation of this Bill. The Deputy Minister did not want to support amendments 2A, 2C and 2E to 2K, because these amendments made little difference in terms of practical effect to what they had in the Bill already. In conclusion, she would ask members to reject the non-Government amendments and agree to amendments 2 and 5." Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair I speak to amendments 2C excluding 2D to 2K which relate to the Deputy Ministers amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defence of reasonable punishment Again I must stress the importance of getting this right due to the controversial and longlasting effects of removing the defence of reasonable punishment Amendments 2E to 2K outline what we would expect to be within this report and we would wish to see a commitment from the Deputy Minister to ensure the National Assembly for Wales is fully apprised and able to scrutinise the result of this report Amendment 2C requests that the Welsh Government prepare a report on the awarenessraising campaign and lays it before the Assembly before section 1 commences As I have outlined under my amendments in group 1 the understanding of the public about the implications of the Bill can not be sidelined Although the Deputy Minister has repeated her commitment to a public awareness campaign we as the National Assembly for Wales must be able to scrutinise its effectiveness before section 1 begins As I noted under amendments 1B to 1E there are specific groups of people who need to be evaluated on their understanding of the Bills effect I am sure that the Deputy Minister will agree that the hardertoreach groups are undoubtedly the most vulnerable to any negative impacts that the Bill will have because of the greater potential of a lack of awareness It is therefore important for the Assembly to be able to determine whether the awarenessraising campaign has had a positive effect on these groups of people As will also be elaborated under amendment 2D it is extremely important that we as the Parliament of Wales are fully apprised of the awarenessraising campaigns impact Before we implement what will be a criminal offence it is vital that we ensure that those affected are not adversely impacted because of a poorly targeted awareness campaign Therefore I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister would commit to an independent evaluation of the awareness campaigns effects before section 1 commences,"Janet Finch-Saunders spoke to amendments 2C, excluding 2D, to 2K, which related to the Deputy Minister's amendment 2 on preparing a published report on the effect of abolishing the defense of reasonable punishment. Amendments 2E to 2K outlined what they would expect to be within the report. Amendment 2C requested that the Welsh Government prepared a report on the awareness-raising campaign and laid it before the Assembly before section 1 commenced. It was important that they were fully apprised of the awareness-raising campaign's impact, which was elaborated under amendment 2D." "Lynne Neagle AM: Right we will therefore take a vote All those in favour of amendment 2 please show All those against So there voted four in favour two against and amendment 2 is agreed That takes us on to group 3 which relates to the regulationmaking powers in the Bill The lead amendment in the group is amendment 3 in the name of the Deputy Minister I move amendment 3 in the Deputy Ministers name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendments and the other amendments in this group Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Chair Members will note that I have brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the Bill which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment And that is going to be debated under group 5 So we are obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here basically As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an Order for commencement the power to make transitory transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed So I am not seeking here to add any new powers to the Bill amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent In fact removing the power for the Welsh Ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by Order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended These amendments are technical in nature and while I acknowledge that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied The absence of an Assembly procedure does not mean that Ministers decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the Assembly Any concerns about the Welsh Ministers proposals could be put to me in the Senedd This was a point made to CLAC and as I say their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power For those reasons I encourage Members to reject amendment 3A from Suzy Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much Well perhaps Deputy Minister I can begin by saying that one persons technical issue is another persons essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny But I thank you for noting the Assemblys observations on the ministerial powers granted in this Bill—this time by CLAC as you say Moving this—and I am glad actually that amendment 8 I think it was has removed an Order provision and we are moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here I have to say that amendment 3A is something of a probing amendment and I will explain why now Your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 but it is actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it is not a separate commencement power And actually I have been listening to the rest of this debate and thinking that if you are going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report the chances are you are going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas I think And I am wondering whether the—what is it—transitory transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this Bill I am wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft As I say in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 I tabled this in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the Assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 when it comes into effect onto the floor of the Assembly Because while I completely accept that you have acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on it is still possible to do that without procedure and so I have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure Amendment 3A is a holding position which we will return to you in Stage 3 because I think again this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you are looking for because I think you probably need something that is beyond transitional transitory and saving Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy have you finished ? Suzy Davies AM: Yes thank you very much Lynne Neagle AM: Are there any other Members who wish to speak on this group ? No Deputy Minister Julie Morgan AM: I thank Suzy for that input We do not actually think it is necessary to have wider powers but we will keep this under review and at Stage 3 I think that— When I was looking at this I was concerned to know what the transitory powers—what we would actually need to do at that stage but I can understand that there may be links to other Bills in ways that we are not anticipating at the moment that would make it necessary to have those powers So basically I do not think it is necessary to have wider powers but I can assure you that we will keep that in review coming up to Stage 3 Suzy Davies AM: Can I just ask a question on the back of that ? Lynne Neagle AM: Will you take a brief intervention at the end Minister ? Suzy Davies AM: Will you take the briefest intervention before your full stop ? Julie Morgan AM: I was going to end there yes Suzy Davies AM: Right well just before your full stop would you just confirm that you are happy for us to discuss this before Stage 3 ? Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Before disposing of amendment 3 we will deal with the amendment to that amendment Suzy do you wish to move amendment 3A ? Suzy Davies AM: I will move it yes Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 3A be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection I will take a vote by show of hands All those in favour of amendment 3A All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 3A is not agreed If amendment 3 is not agreed amendment 6 will fall Deputy Minister do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 3 ? The question is that amendment 3 be agreed Does any Member object ? Amendment 3 is therefore agreed The committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 1105 am Can I welcome Members back ? We will move on to group 4 which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding The lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of Janet FinchSaunders I call on Janet FinchSaunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments Janet","The Deputy Minister proposed that she encouraged members to reject amendment 3A. She said she was not seeking to add any new powers to the Bill. Amendment 3 would simply add the existing power back onto the face of the Bill, where amendments 7 and 8 remove it, and amendment 6 would bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent. Then Suzy Davies said that amendment 3A was a holding position, and they would return this to the Deputy Minister in stage 3. Suzy thought this was an area where it might be valuable to discuss quite what kind of powers they were looking for, because Suzy Davies thought the Deputy Minister might need something that was beyond transitional, transitory and saving. At last, they took a vote for this and ended up with rejecting amendment 3A, and agreeing on amendment 3." Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Chair Members will note that I have brought forward an amendment to provide certainty on the date of commencement of the core provision in the Bill which is obviously to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment And that is going to be debated under group 5 So we are obviously debating that after we deal with these particular technical issues—these are technical issues here basically As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an Order for commencement the power to make transitory transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed So I am not seeking here to add any new powers to the Bill amendment 3 will simply add this existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 remove it and amendment 6 will bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent In fact removing the power for the Welsh Ministers to commence the provision in section 1 by Order means the statutory instrument will actually do less than originally intended These amendments are technical in nature and while I acknowledge that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied The absence of an Assembly procedure does not mean that Ministers decisions in relation to transitional powers can not be scrutinised by the Assembly Any concerns about the Welsh Ministers proposals could be put to me in the Senedd This was a point made to CLAC and as I say their final conclusion was that no procedure is the appropriate procedure for such a power For those reasons I encourage Members to reject amendment 3A from Suzy,"As a consequence of proposing to remove the power for a Welsh Minister to make an order for commencement, the power to make transitory, transitional or saving provisions in connection with section 1 of the Bill coming into force would also be removed. Amendment 2 would add the existing power back onto the face of the Bill where amendments 7 and 8 removed it, and amendment 6 would bring the power into force the day after Royal Assent. These amendments were technical in nature and while she acknowledged that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee raised the issue of what procedure should be applied, their report did not call for any change to no procedure being applied. The absence of an Assembly procedure did not mean that Ministers' decisions in relation to transitional powers cannot be scrutinized by the Assembly. In conclusion, she encouraged members to reject amendment 3A." Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much Well perhaps Deputy Minister I can begin by saying that one persons technical issue is another persons essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny But I thank you for noting the Assemblys observations on the ministerial powers granted in this Bill—this time by CLAC as you say Moving this—and I am glad actually that amendment 8 I think it was has removed an Order provision and we are moving into an area where at least statutory instruments do feature here I have to say that amendment 3A is something of a probing amendment and I will explain why now Your amendment 3 seeks to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1 but it is actually in a substantive part of section 1 itself now—it is not a separate commencement power And actually I have been listening to the rest of this debate and thinking that if you are going to be introducing an awareness campaign and a report the chances are you are going to need some regulatory powers to introduce some of the aspects of both those policy areas I think And I am wondering whether the—what is it—transitory transitional and saving provisions are actually enough powers for you under the course of this Bill I am wondering whether you want to consider actually amending this to give yourself the more usual unrestricted power to make regulations in order for you to get section 1 implemented bearing in mind that it has now been amended from that original very short and simple—or at least simple in terms of drafting—initial draft As I say in anticipation of you rejecting amendments in group 1 I tabled this in order to make sure that an opportunity remains for the Assembly to bring anything you may wish to introduce under section 1 when it comes into effect onto the floor of the Assembly Because while I completely accept that you have acknowledged that statutory instrument is the process for introducing things from now on it is still possible to do that without procedure and so I have no idea whether you think what you introduce would be better suited to be introduced by a negative or affirmative procedure Amendment 3A is a holding position which we will return to you in Stage 3 because I think again this is an area where it might be valuable for us to discuss quite what kind of powers you are looking for because I think you probably need something that is beyond transitional transitory and saving,"Suzy Davies thought that one person's technical issue was another person's essential part of the legislative procedure and a keen element in scrutiny. Suzy Davies was glad that amendment 8 had removed an order provision. Suzy Davies thought amendment 3A was something of a probing amendment. The amendment 3 seek to give a familiar range of powers in connection with the coming into force of section 1, but it was not a separate commencement power. Amendment 3A was a holding position, which they would return this in Stage 3, because Suzy Davies thought this was an area where this might be valuable to discuss quite what kind of powers were required. Suzy Davies thought there might be something that was beyond transitional, transitory and saving." "Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 3 be agreed Does any Member object ? Amendment 3 is therefore agreed The committee will now break for 10 minutes and reconvene at 1105 am Can I welcome Members back ? We will move on to group 4 which relates to the duty to ensure sufficient funding The lead amendment in the group is amendment 11 in the name of Janet FinchSaunders I call on Janet FinchSaunders to move amendment 11 and to speak to her amendments Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you I speak to both amendments in this group As I outlined under amendments 2I and 2J there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment Now it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic As I have mentioned previously these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hardpressed social services Furthermore the Welsh Local Government Association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales Now during evidence the Deputy Minister when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate But you could not commit to a broad figure instead telling us that : we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us And : We have to measure it as we go along Given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes we only think it is fair for the Welsh Government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this Bill Now while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards I note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by Welsh Government Anticipating the Deputy Ministers response that few under this category if any at all would be affected by the Bill we are pursuing a principle here and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the Deputy Minister Now these are just two examples of Welsh Government legislation to date that have been underfunded The Active Travel Wales Act 2013 : last year the Economy Infrastructure and Skills Committee found that the Wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of Englands and one sixth of Hollands Furthermore the committee highlighted that the passing of the Act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes but were constrained by the funding made available to them The Minister at the time announced a threeyear funding settlement of £60 million Now my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel Act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel Act to become a meaningful piece of legislation and the same goes with the Wellbeing of Future Generations Wales Act 2015 This month the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the Act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding Outside of the Welsh Governments regional grant that can not be spent on projects councils often contribute through officer time or facilities but resources and capacity to support those PSBs remain a key risk as partners do not have the capacity to take on more The reason that I wanted these amendments placed in here is I genuinely do not believe that you have even envisioned what or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations and certainly our local authorities and health boards the impact this Bill is going to have Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Janet Are there other Members who would like to speak in this group please ? No I call the Deputy Minister then Julie Morgan AM: Thank you Chair I can understand that the Member is concerned about the impact of this Bill on public services but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the Bill that we have done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this Bill before introduction And as far as we are aware no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation and also comprehensively prepared for implementation We have explored the published data which is available from other countries on the impact of measures they have taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children We have also spoken to a range of stakeholders in Ireland New Zealand and Malta who have legal systems similar to our own And in these countries there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform And stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs and I think we should trust their judgment on this In fact as this committee notes in its Stage 1 report those delivering services on the front line have said without exception that this Bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear Sally Jenkins of the Association of Directors of Social Services said to this committee : In terms of thresholds for children ’ s services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen That is from the front line Jane Randall chair of the National Independent Safeguarding Board Wales said : there is no expectation that there is going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources And Dr Rowena Christmas Royal College of General Practitioners said : I can not see it is going to lengthen consultations I can not see that it is going to increase the number of consultations and I do not think it is going to increase the number of referrals I make to the health visitor or to social services because if I was worried I would make those referrals now regardless of the Bill I just want to say again that the Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault which has formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time And social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted including from health and education so it is not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them I do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points As I have already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services and this will be analysed as part of the postimplementation review of the legislation Welsh Government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications I can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued and I have asked officials to prepare a revised RIA as recommended at Stage 2 and I expect to share an updated RIA with you in advance of Stage 3 Serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the Bill but I think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given particularly to this committee from the professionals at the front line What the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within Government and it is not clear why in the context of the evidence heard at Stage I such provisions are necessary I am sure that Members will agree that future Governments need to be able to consider within the context of the budgetsetting process what the priorities are and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time for example taking into account any issues that there are—UK Government actions what happens in relation to Brexit or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or Welsh society All those issues would have to be taken into account Furthermore as is the case now the National Assembly for Wales scrutinises the Welsh Government budget annually so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies should it consider that this is required I do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding so I urge Members to reject these amendments which I believe are unnecessary Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Chair could I ask a question ? Lynne Neagle AM: You can reply to the debate now Janet yes Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I would like to ask a question of the Deputy Minister When we were taking evidence at an earlier stage I noticed that part of the stakeholder group—there was some liaison going on with social services departments across Wales Now we have 22 local authorities At that time the numbers mentioned were quite small—I think only a handful What discussions have taken place with our local authorities in terms of their social services departments in terms of the lead the cabinet members or indeed the head of service ? I can speak from my own experiences when going around my constituency but when I have spoken to some of the family support groups and indeed the departments themselves they are very concerned about the financial impact that this is going to have on the provision They are already overstretched and they see this as another burden—primarily another financial burden So how much have you engaged with them ? Julie Morgan AM: There is been extensive engagement We have had meetings with the Association of Directors of Social Services and they are represented on all our groups and we are working very closely with them because of course they represent all the local authorities But I have to say when I have been going round and meeting lots of different groups the first thing they say is I am so glad that you are doing this and they have not mentioned any financial implications But obviously we will be very aware of—we are looking at any more evidence that comes up Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So I will still move my amendments I am disappointed really I was hoping to see some commitment to—this Bill was going to go through and it is one that could be implemented fully because sufficient resources were there I am not convinced about that and I know that other organisations are not also So I move my amendments Lynne Neagle AM: The question is that amendment 11 be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection I therefore take a vote by show of hands All those in favour All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 11 is not agreed Janet do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 12 ? The question is that amendment 12 be agreed Does any Member object ? Objection All those in favour of amendment 12 All those against So there voted two in favour four against Amendment 12 is not agreed Deputy Minister do you wish to proceed to a vote on amendment 4 ?","This discussion started with Janet Finch-Saunders and Janet Finch-Saunders spoke to both amendments in this group. She said the reason she wanted these two amendments be there because she genuinely did not believe that the Deputy Minister had envisioned what or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organizations, and certainly their local authorities and health boards and impact of the Bill was going to have. Then the Deputy Minister responded to this. She said they had done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of the Bill before introduction. She thought all the evidence had shown that they did not anticipate that there would be a huge increase of a demand for funding, so she encouraged members to reject these amendments, which she thought were not necessary. At last, they took a vote on amendments 11 and 12, and ended up with rejecting amendments 11 and 12, and agreeing with amendment 4 and 5." Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you I speak to both amendments in this group As I outlined under amendments 2I and 2J there are ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment Now it was absolutely clear from evidence that we received in this committee that unknown costs would be challenging and potentially problematic As I have mentioned previously these concerns would doubtless be most keenly felt in our hardpressed social services Furthermore the Welsh Local Government Association stated that there must be a commitment that whatever the costs are those costs are met because it is legislation that is being led by the National Assembly for Wales Now during evidence the Deputy Minister when asked about the reliance on a limited number of reporting of cases likely to happen and the potential for a degree of unknown costs stated : we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate But you could not commit to a broad figure instead telling us that : we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us And : We have to measure it as we go along Given that devolved authorities need to plan their budgets for these changes we only think it is fair for the Welsh Government to provide sufficient funding to alleviate the cost implications of this Bill Now while amendment 11 makes reference to costs borne by local authorities and health boards I note that amendment 12 takes this further by including other devolved authorities that are not funded by Welsh Government Anticipating the Deputy Ministers response that few under this category if any at all would be affected by the Bill we are pursuing a principle here and it is agreement to the principle of providing sufficient funding that we are seeking from you as the Deputy Minister Now these are just two examples of Welsh Government legislation to date that have been underfunded The Active Travel Wales Act 2013 : last year the Economy Infrastructure and Skills Committee found that the Wales annual spend on walking and cycling is half that of Englands and one sixth of Hollands Furthermore the committee highlighted that the passing of the Act put a requirement on local authorities to continuously improve active travel routes but were constrained by the funding made available to them The Minister at the time announced a threeyear funding settlement of £60 million Now my local authority and other authorities that have done some monitoring on the active travel Act—they simply were not awarded sufficient funding to actually allow the active travel Act to become a meaningful piece of legislation and the same goes with the Wellbeing of Future Generations Wales Act 2015 This month the auditor general has raised concerns that the public services boards created under the Act were limited in their work and impact due to the lack of dedicated funding Outside of the Welsh Governments regional grant that can not be spent on projects councils often contribute through officer time or facilities but resources and capacity to support those PSBs remain a key risk as partners do not have the capacity to take on more The reason that I wanted these amendments placed in here is I genuinely do not believe that you have even envisioned what or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organisations and certainly our local authorities and health boards the impact this Bill is going to have,"Janet Finch-Saunders said that there were ongoing concerns about the potential costs for Welsh devolved authorities and the lack of quantifiable costs within the regulatory impact assessment. While amendment 11 referred to costs borne by local authorities and health boards, Janet Finch-Saunders had noted that amendment 12 took this further by including other devolved authorities that were not funded by Welsh Government. Janet Finch-Saunders wanted these amendments because she genuinely did not believe that they had even envisioned what or even estimated the likely cost to be borne by the organizations, and certainly their local authorities and health boards, and the impact the Bill was going to have." Julie Morgan AM: Thank you Chair I can understand that the Member is concerned about the impact of this Bill on public services but you will see from the explanatory memorandum and from the raft of impact statements published with the Bill that we have done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of this Bill before introduction And as far as we are aware no other country has done more than us to consider the impacts of similar legislation and also comprehensively prepared for implementation We have explored the published data which is available from other countries on the impact of measures they have taken to prohibit the physical punishment of children We have also spoken to a range of stakeholders in Ireland New Zealand and Malta who have legal systems similar to our own And in these countries there is no evidence that public services have been overwhelmed following law reform And stakeholders have been clear when giving evidence to this committee that they do not consider there will be runaway costs and I think we should trust their judgment on this In fact as this committee notes in its Stage 1 report those delivering services on the front line have said without exception that this Bill will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clear Sally Jenkins of the Association of Directors of Social Services said to this committee : In terms of thresholds for children ’ s services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen That is from the front line Jane Randall chair of the National Independent Safeguarding Board Wales said : there is no expectation that there is going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals coming through to local authority social services I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources And Dr Rowena Christmas Royal College of General Practitioners said : I can not see it is going to lengthen consultations I can not see that it is going to increase the number of consultations and I do not think it is going to increase the number of referrals I make to the health visitor or to social services because if I was worried I would make those referrals now regardless of the Bill I just want to say again that the Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault which has formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time And social services already receive and investigate reports of children being assaulted including from health and education so it is not a whole new area of costly activity for any of them I do think that the evidence that you had at your committee did highlight those points As I have already pointed out when discussing group 2 amendments we are working with organisations to put in place arrangements to collect data about the possible impact on their services and this will be analysed as part of the postimplementation review of the legislation Welsh Government can consider with relevant organisations how best to manage any impact on workloads or resources and any cost implications I can assure you that work to update the regulatory impact assessment has continued and I have asked officials to prepare a revised RIA as recommended at Stage 2 and I expect to share an updated RIA with you in advance of Stage 3 Serious consideration is being given on how to provide more detailed estimates of the unknown costs to public services arising from the Bill but I think you should be reassured by the evidence that was given particularly to this committee from the professionals at the front line What the amendments are proposing is outside the normal funding arrangements that operate within Government and it is not clear why in the context of the evidence heard at Stage I such provisions are necessary I am sure that Members will agree that future Governments need to be able to consider within the context of the budgetsetting process what the priorities are and these considerations would need to be made within the context at that time for example taking into account any issues that there are—UK Government actions what happens in relation to Brexit or any other unforeseen impacts on the economy or Welsh society All those issues would have to be taken into account Furthermore as is the case now the National Assembly for Wales scrutinises the Welsh Government budget annually so it would be able to make an argument for additional funding for public bodies should it consider that this is required I do think all the evidence has shown that we do not anticipate that there will be a huge increase of a demand for funding so I urge Members to reject these amendments which I believe are unnecessary,"The Deputy Minister understood that the impact of this Bill on public services was concerned; however, she said that they had done a thorough and extremely diligent job of considering the potential impacts of the Bill before introduction. She cited several people's sentences, to demonstrate that the Bill was removing a defense to an offence of common assault, which had formed part of the common law of England and Wales for a very long time. This was not a completely new area of costly activity for any of them. The Deputy Minister thought all the evidence had shown that they did not anticipate that there would be a huge increase of a demand for funding, so she encouraged members to reject these amendments, which she thought were not necessary." "Project Manager: we have a financial aspect to this project we can sell them at twenty five Euros the aim is to reach to sell as much as fifty million Euros that is quite a big amount of money And the production cost should be the half of the selling price Industrial Designer: So we have to s Project Manager: now it is time for some discussion User Interface: What what do you want to discuss ? Project Manager: we each have a specific task as I saw in my mail I did not know if you received the same mail so the this industrati Industrial Designer should produce a working design Am I correct ? the User Interface Designer should specify the technical functions Right ? ? And the Marketing Expert should come up with user requirements did any of you already do some work on this part or Industrial Designer: Well I started making an overview for myself what I had to do because we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever So I had to I do not know make an overview for myself about what I have to do and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it Project Manager: Mmhmm And do you have any ideas about the product so far ? Industrial Designer: Well I started I started with the first phase I think was the functional And let us see I had to focus on the working design which you said How does the apparatus work ? And well I basically had two points according to the coffee machine example I have batteries to supply energy and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the TV And that is basically all I have so far Project Manager: I got another point It uses infrared light to communicate the signal to the TV apparatus or stereo Marketing: So that is very common User Interface: it is some buttons for for the on off function You d you already told that And for the changing up to the to all the channels and changing the volume That are the the basic options for a remote control Industrial Designer: I kept it global because that it activates or deactivates specific functions because I was not thinking yet about that I mean you want to ch ch flip the channel but you might want to use teletext also I do not know what the word is in English Project Manager: and what did the Marketing Expert do ? Marketing: well from a marketing perspective well the function des design phase consists out of the user requirements what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a few means to reach that by by doing research to see what existing products are there out in the market I mean what functions do they have especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions which can be added to our product ? therefore we have to to do some internet search For example for well what kind of applications do current remote controls support and what are f featur features of current and future televisions ? So we can see what needs to be supported and we can interview current users and future users What w what would they like to see on a new remote control ? especially for future users I am thinking of early adopters because they they use new technology first and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they have some good ideas to to add Project Manager: And you can get that information ? Marketing: I think I can get that information Project Manager: That would be very handy",Project Manager informed the team of the price issue and the financial goal. The unit price was determined to be 25 Euros. The production of each remote control would cost 12.5 Euros. The team would have to make sales amounting to 50 million Euros. Project Manager assigned individual tasks to the team members. Industrial Designer had worked out a rough plan for the first phase and would produce a working design. User Interface was supposed to specify the technical functions. Marketing would be responsible for market research. "Project Manager: did any of you already do some work on this part or Industrial Designer: Well I started making an overview for myself what I had to do because we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever So I had to I do not know make an overview for myself about what I have to do and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it Project Manager: Mmhmm And do you have any ideas about the product so far ? Industrial Designer: Well I started I started with the first phase I think was the functional And let us see I had to focus on the working design which you said How does the apparatus work ? And well I basically had two points according to the coffee machine example I have batteries to supply energy and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the TV And that is basically all I have so far Project Manager: I got another point It uses infrared light to communicate the signal to the TV apparatus or stereo Marketing: So that is very common","Industrial Designer had started making an overview of the project's three phases respectively. In the present phase, Industrial Designer focused on the basic function of the remote control. Batteries would be incorporated in the remote control to supply energy. Users would press buttons to activate or deactivate certain functions on the TV. In addition, Project Manager suggested that the remote control would use infrared light to communicate the signal to the TV apparatus or stereo. Industrial Designer agreed." "Project Manager: and what did the Marketing Expert do ? Marketing: well from a marketing perspective well the function des design phase consists out of the user requirements what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a few means to reach that by by doing research to see what existing products are there out in the market I mean what functions do they have especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions which can be added to our product ? therefore we have to to do some internet search For example for well what kind of applications do current remote controls support and what are f featur features of current and future televisions ? So we can see what needs to be supported and we can interview current users and future users What w what would they like to see on a new remote control ? especially for future users I am thinking of early adopters because they they use new technology first and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they have some good ideas to to add Project Manager: And you can get that information ? Marketing: I think I can get that information Project Manager: That would be very handy","From a marketing perspective, the present function design phase consisted of user requirements. Marketing would mainly do internet research to get users' feedback on existing products. Meanwhile, Marketing would find out the shortcomings of the current remote controls. According to the research results, the team could optimize their design. Marketing added that the team would probably be inspired by early remote control adopters." "Project Manager: but have you any idea so far as what the user requirements are ? Marketing: More to how to get them User Interface: it has it has to be userfriendly really easy to use buttons not not very small buttons but not the the also the big big buttons but just normal buttons It has to be a small unit It has to be you can take it with you everywhere in in your house So it has n has not to be l gigantic machine and a and a good zapping range Project Manager: what do you mean by that ? User Interface: the distance from your television to your remote control has to be quite a big distance It has to be capable for zapping Marketing: From the other end of the room or something ?","Regretfully, Marketing did not get specific user requirements for now. Instead, User Interface made a contribution to the discussion. Users mainly expected the remote control to be user-friendly. To be more specific, the button size ought to be regular, and the remote control was expected to be a handy and small unit. It would be more satisfying if the zapping range was big enough so that the remote control could work from a distance." "Project Manager: Well I do not think I have anything more to add at the moment I think the best is to go to work Marketing: Any more points to discuss ? Project Manager: I think we can go ahead with what we have I will summarise the things we discussed and put it in the project folder the use of the Industrial Designer can work on the working design etcetera etcetera And it seems you get more information by email So that was it for me User Interface: Are you going to put the the notes on the Project Manager: I am writing very fast anything more you want to add to the discussion ? Industrial Designer: Well no I am just a bit wondering what we are going to do the next session ? User Interface: Do we only have to to do phase one the functional design ? Project Manager: Because then we have a User Interface: After that we are going to the conceptual Project Manager: Y you do some individual work Marketing: We are just working the three phases Project Manager: we have meeting individual work meeting And at the end of the day we have a final meeting And then I have to prepare I have to defend our design Industrial Designer: We will do our best I am going to work on the conceptual design already because it is fairly important to know what kind of components we want to put in Project Manager: ? If you can mix it it is Mmhmm Industrial Designer: Do we I mean is it going to be a multimedia control centre ? Do we want to be able to use the video recorder with it ? Marketing: That is my question also because like new new functions Project Manager: Well I think that is the user requirements part As to what they want do they want all those functions on that small Industrial Designer: But but we need good communication about this stuff because I have to f put the components into the design So if I do not know what components to put in it is kind of hard User Interface: I I think we have first to start with the basic functions and we can expand them Project Manager: You can always add a few Marketing: well like l li like some like some some remotes who are out there which I know there is one button which is very easy to switch between devices So you can switch to your video and then the same buttons control your video And another function I will think of switch to your media centre because that is getting very popular And then use your Windows media centre under your TV with the same remote control So with the switch one single switch Industrial Designer: I I know what you mean but you will ne need several other buttons for a video player You need a play and a forw fast forward and a stop function And you you do not need that for a TV Marketing: records and stuff like that Industrial Designer: And and for a t teletext you need additional buttons as well so I kind of need to know what we need Whatever I will just put my ideas in in here and then we can discuss it with the next meeting Project Manager: We could just start with the assumption that is only for TV and video And reserve the possibility to add other features So we have a basic starting point and you can always extend that so make sure it is extendible User Interface: it it has it has to be userfriendly So it is has not it is Project Manager: Th the least amount of functions possible so it is easier to get to know how it works etcetera ? and I will see you again when the computer tells us to","Industrial Designer asked whether the remote control would be a multimedia product. Marketing also hoped to know the answer, for the team would have to decide what functions to incorporate in the remote control. Project Manager suggested that the team should first have a basic starting point and extend to other functions in the following meetings." "Marketing: well like l li like some like some some remotes who are out there which I know there is one button which is very easy to switch between devices So you can switch to your video and then the same buttons control your video And another function I will think of switch to your media centre because that is getting very popular And then use your Windows media centre under your TV with the same remote control So with the switch one single switch Industrial Designer: I I know what you mean but you will ne need several other buttons for a video player You need a play and a forw fast forward and a stop function And you you do not need that for a TV Marketing: records and stuff like that Industrial Designer: And and for a t teletext you need additional buttons as well so I kind of need to know what we need Whatever I will just put my ideas in in here and then we can discuss it with the next meeting","Marketing suggested that the remote control could only have one button and connect with Windows media center under the TV. The remote control could thus operate different devices at the same time. However, Industrial Designer pointed out that it would not be feasible to have only one button, for the remote control would need several other buttons for a video player, such as the play, the fast forward, and the stop button." "PhD E: So have the when is the next evaluation ? June or something ? Professor B: Which ? Speaker recognition ? there we do not know about evaluation next meeting is in June And but like getting get together PhD E: Oh OK Are people supposed to rerun their systems Professor B: I assume so yes but nobody even set up yet the pause date for delivering endpointed data And this that that sort of stuff But I what I think would be of course extremely useful if we can come to our next meeting and say `` well you know we did get fifty percent improvement If if you are interested we eventually can tell you how `` but we can get fifty percent improvement Because people will s will be saying it s impossible PhD E: Do you know what the new baseline is ? Oh I guess if you do not have Professor B: Twenty two t twenty twenty two percent better than the old baseline PhD E: Using your voice activity detector ? Professor B: you Yes Yes But I assume that it will be similar I do not I I do not see the reason why it should not be I d I do not see reason why it should be worse Cuz if it is worse then we will raise the objection we say `` well you know how come ? `` Because eh if we just use our voice activity detector which we do not claim even that it s wonderful it s just like one of them We get this sort of improvement how come that we do not see it on on on on your endpointed data ? PhD C: I guess it could be even better because the voice activity detector that I choosed is something that cheating it s using the alignment of the speech recognition system and only the alignment on the clean channel and then mapped this alignment to the noisy channel Professor B: and on clean speech data Well David told me David told me yesterday or Harry actually he told Harry from QualComm and Harry brought up the suggestion we should still go for fifty percent he says are you aware that your system does only thirty percent comparing to to endpointed baselines ? So they must have run already something So And Harry said `` But I mean we think that we we did not say the last word yet that we have other other things which we can try `` So So there s a lot of discussion now about this new criterion Because Nokia was objecting with QualComm s we basically supported that we said `` yes `` Now everybody else is saying `` well you guys might must be out of your mind `` The Guenter Hirsch who d does not speak for Ericsson anymore because he is not with Ericsson and Ericsson may not may withdraw from the whole Aurora activity because they have so many troubles now Ericsson s laying off twenty percent of people PhD E: Where s Guenter going ? Professor B: Well Guenter is already he got the job already was working on it for past two years or three years he got a job at some some Fachschule the technical college not too far from Aachen So it s like professor you university professor you know not quite a university not quite a sort of it s not Aachen University but it s a good school and he he s happy And he well he was hoping to work with Ericsson like on t like consulting basis but right now he says says it does not look like that anybody is even thinking about speech recognition So So But this is being now discussed right now and it s possible that that that it may get through that we will still stick to fifty percent But that means that nobody will probably get this i am this improvement yet wi with the current system Which event es essentially I think that we should be happy with because that that would mean that at least people may be forced to look into alternative solutions PhD C: Mm But maybe I I mean we are not too far from from fifty percent from the new baseline Which would mean like sixty percent over the current baseline which is Professor B: Yes Yes We we getting we getting there right PhD C: Well We are around fifty fifty five Professor B: Is it like sort of is How did you come up with this number ? If you improve twenty by twenty percent the c the f the all baselines it s just a quick c comp co computation ? PhD C: I do not know exactly if it s Professor B: huh I think it s about right PhD C: because it de it depends on the weightings PhD E: How s your documentation or whatever it w what was it you guys were working on last week ? PhD C: finally we we ve not finished with this We stopped PhD D: More or less it s finished Ma nec to need a little more time to improve the English and maybe s to fill in something some small detail something like that but it s more or less ready PhD C: Well we have a document that explain a big part of the experiments PhD D: Necessary to to include the bi the bibliography PhD C: it s not finished yet Mm PhD E: So have you been running some new experiments ? I I thought I saw some jobs of yours running on some of the machine",The team had gotten a fifty percent improvement on the model. This was significant but left room for further work. They aimed to get a sixty percent improvement from the initial baseline . "Professor B: Now everybody else is saying `` well you guys might must be out of your mind `` The Guenter Hirsch who d does not speak for Ericsson anymore because he is not with Ericsson and Ericsson may not may withdraw from the whole Aurora activity because they have so many troubles now Ericsson s laying off twenty percent of people PhD E: Where s Guenter going ? Professor B: Well Guenter is already he got the job already was working on it for past two years or three years he got a job at some some Fachschule the technical college not too far from Aachen So it s like professor you university professor you know not quite a university not quite a sort of it s not Aachen University but it s a good school and he he s happy","The professor explained that Guenter Hirsch had left Ericsson and that Ericsson may withdraw from Aurora altogether. For the past two to three years, he was happily employed at a technical college not too far from Aachen." "PhD C: Which would mean like sixty percent over the current baseline which is Professor B: Yes Yes We we getting we getting there right PhD C: Well We are around fifty fifty five Professor B: Is it like sort of is How did you come up with this number ? If you improve twenty by twenty percent the c the f the all baselines it s just a quick c comp co computation ? PhD C: I do not know exactly if it s Professor B: huh I think it s about right PhD C: because it de it depends on the weightings","PhD C thought the team was not far from fifty percent over the new baseline, which equated to sixty percent over the old baseline. Their model was around fifty to fifty five over the old baseline at the time. Though, the number would depend on the exact weightings." "Professor B: that s that s a good thing because then y you just write the `` do `` loops and then you pretend that you are working while you are sort of you c you can go fishing PhD E: And two gigs of memory See how many cycles we used ? Professor B: Then you are sort of in this mode like all of those ARPA people are right ? since it is on the record I can not say which company it was but it was reported to me that somebody visited a company and during a d during a discussion there was this guy who was always hitting the carriage returns on a computer So after two hours the visitor said `` wh why are you hitting this carriage return ? `` And he said `` well you know we are being paid by a computer ty I mean we are we have a government contract And they pay us by by amount of computer time we use `` It was in old days when there were of PDP eights and that sort of thing PhD E: Oh my gosh ! So he had to make it look like Professor B: Because so they had a they literally had to c monitor at the time at the time on a computer how much time is being spent I i i or on on this particular project Nobody was looking even at what was coming out PhD E: Have you ever seen those little It s it s this thing that s the shape of a bird and it has a red ball and its beak dips into the water ? So if you could hook that up so it hit the keyboard That s an interesting experiment Professor B: It would be similar similar to I knew some people who were that was in old Communist Czechoslovakia right ? so we were watching for American airplanes coming to spy on on on us at the time so there were three guys stationed in the middle of the woods on one l lonely watching tower pretty much spending a year and a half there because there was this service right ? And so they very quickly they made friends with local girls and local people in the village and so but they there was one plane flying over s always above and so that was the only work which they had They like four in the afternoon they had to report there was a plane from Prague to Brno Basically f flying there so they f very q f first thing was that they would always run back and and at four o clock and and quickly make a call `` this plane is passing `` then a second thing was that they they took the line from this you you post to a local pub And they were calling from the pub And they but third thing which they made and when they screwed up they finally they had to p the the p the pub owner to make these phone calls because they did not even bother to be there anymore And one day there was there was no plane At least they were sort of smart enough that they looked if the plane is flying there right ? And the pub owner says `` oh my four o clock OK quickly p pick up the phone call that there s a plane flying `` There was no plane for some reason PhD E: And there was not ? Professor B: it was downed or and so they got in trouble But But PhD E: Huh ! Well that s that s a really i That would not be too difficult to try Maybe I could set that up Professor B: Well at least go test the s test the assumption about C C one I mean to begin with But then of course one can then think about some predictable result to change all of them It s just like we used to do these these the the distance measures It might be that PhD E: so the first set of variance weighting vectors would be just you know one modifying one and leaving the others the same And and do that for each one Professor B: Because you see I mean what is happening here in a in a in a in such a model is that it s tells you what has a low variance is is is more reliable PhD E: That would be one set of experiment Professor B: right ? How do we PhD E: Wh when the data matches that then you get really Professor B: How do we know especially when it comes to noise ? PhD E: But there could just naturally be low variance Because I Like I ve noticed in the higher cepstral coefficients the numbers seem to get smaller right ? So d PhD C: They have smaller means also PhD E: Exactly And so it seems like they are already sort of compressed The range pause of values Professor B: that s why people used these lifters were inverse variance weighting lifters basically that makes Euclidean distance more like Mahalanobis distance with a diagonal covariance when you knew what all the variances were over the old data What they would do is that they would weight each coefficient by inverse of the variance Turns out that the variance decreases at least at fast I believe as the index of the cepstral coefficients I think you can show that analytically So typically what happens is that you you need to weight the weight the higher coefficients more than the lower coefficients",The professor made his suggestions through stories. The Professor wanted to make a point about how they should run a set of experiments to measure the effect of different features with variance in mind. He explained that they should weight each coefficient by inverse of the variance. "PhD E: That s an interesting experiment Professor B: It would be similar similar to I knew some people who were that was in old Communist Czechoslovakia right ? so we were watching for American airplanes coming to spy on on on us at the time so there were three guys stationed in the middle of the woods on one l lonely watching tower pretty much spending a year and a half there because there was this service right ? And so they very quickly they made friends with local girls and local people in the village and so but they there was one plane flying over s always above and so that was the only work which they had They like four in the afternoon they had to report there was a plane from Prague to Brno Basically f flying there so they f very q f first thing was that they would always run back and and at four o clock and and quickly make a call `` this plane is passing `` then a second thing was that they they took the line from this you you post to a local pub And they were calling from the pub And they but third thing which they made and when they screwed up they finally they had to p the the p the pub owner to make these phone calls because they did not even bother to be there anymore And one day there was there was no plane At least they were sort of smart enough that they looked if the plane is flying there right ? And the pub owner says `` oh my four o clock OK quickly p pick up the phone call that there s a plane flying `` There was no plane for some reason PhD E: And there was not ? Professor B: it was downed or and so they got in trouble But But PhD E: Huh ! Well that s that s a really i That would not be too difficult to try Maybe I could set that up Professor B: Well at least go test the s test the assumption about C C one I mean to begin with But then of course one can then think about some predictable result to change all of them It s just like we used to do these these the the distance measures It might be that PhD E: so the first set of variance weighting vectors would be just you know one modifying one and leaving the others the same","The professor told the group a story about soldiers assigned to watch out for spy planes. The plane showed up at four each day and the soldiers called it in. Once the pattern was clear, they stopped looking for it and spent time with the locals instead. One day, the plane did not come but the soldiers still reported it, so they got into trouble. The professor used the story to make a point about making an assumption and then seeing if it holds after changing something small." "Professor B: because then y you just write the `` do `` loops and then you pretend that you are working while you are sort of you c you can go fishing PhD E: And two gigs of memory See how many cycles we used ? Professor B: Then you are sort of in this mode like all of those ARPA people are right ? since it is on the record I can not say which company it was but it was reported to me that somebody visited a company and during a d during a discussion there was this guy who was always hitting the carriage returns on a computer So after two hours the visitor said `` wh why are you hitting this carriage return ? `` And he said `` well you know we are being paid by a computer ty I mean we are we have a government contract And they pay us by by amount of computer time we use `` It was in old days when there were of PDP eights and that sort of thing PhD E: Oh my gosh ! So he had to make it look like Professor B: Because so they had a they literally had to c monitor at the time at the time on a computer how much time is being spent I i i or on on this particular project Nobody was looking even at what was coming out PhD E: Have you ever seen those little It s it s this thing that s the shape of a bird and it has a red ball and its beak dips into the water ?",The professor told a story about how people could pretend to be working by consuming computer memory without doing anything useful. He recounted a story about a company that was paid by the U.S. government based on the amount of computer time they used. The company ran a useless program to rack up computer time. "Marketing: it is a PowerPoint presentation I do not really know exactly what we should talk about It is under evaluation Alright so these are the criteria we are going to ask is it easy to use is it fashionable I guess we should write these down so we can reference them User Interface: Feel good meaning what ? Marketing: Like does it feel good like That is just for current trend It does not really count you guys Industrial Designer: it was a little difficult to incorporate the cover with the cherry fruit on it Marketing: But it is so we do have removable covers right ? well then that is covered And so we n k everybody have that ? It is good so we are using the criteria for a seven point scale and so we need to discuss how we feel It falls within this range so for easy to use do we feel it is very easy to use ? Project Manager: Are we going to indi User Interface: True or false easy to use Project Manager: I say we individually rate what do you say ? Why not ? We have easy to use I vote six Marketing: Oh wait that is false Industrial Designer: I would say two as well Marketing: Two That is what I say No I mean like no I think it is very fashionable I thi I would give it a one Project Manager: One I give it a one Industrial Designer: I will give it a two because at the moment it is not looking that way Project Manager: Oh and ma it is a prototype Marketing: Well that is that is just like that is a clay it is a prototype User Interface: Mm I do not think it is that fashionable Marketing: What do you think ? User Interface: I would give it like three or four Project Manager: So the average is about a two User Interface: But then I am not fashionable so Project Manager: Two or three Two point five User Interface: do not use my opinion Industrial Designer: Neither are all o all the customers we have either Marketing: does it feel good ? Project Manager: Imagine since we obviously do not have that User Interface: Does it feel good ? Industrial Designer: the shape of it actually does Project Manager: And it is i it is very ergonomically designed It is going to be curved User Interface: it is going to be thicker Marketing: I think it feels good I will give it a two User Interface: I will give it a one Marketing: What do you say ? Industrial Designer: I would say a two Project Manager: Is it technologically innovative ? Oh sorry I am taking over your job here Marketing: Oh no it is fine you are I mean you are Project Manager I mean and it does it have voice I mean the phrase recognition on it ? Project Manager: Yes Right ? We were able to do it with that kind of chip Industrial Designer: We could do it with the chip yes It was not we have no reflection of it on the prototype Marketing: And there is no way you can represent it on here Y Industrial Designer: but that is because it is only two dimensions really Project Manager: That was kay And we discussed that being included Marketing: Then yes then I would well it is not what else would it need for it to be technologically innovative ? Project Manager: Well we don have the you know we can not say channel and it changes the channel channel eight Marketing: And it does not cover anything other then TV so I would probably give it a three Even though it is for just a TV remote it is very advanced But it is just a TV remote Project Manager: I would go for a three or four on that one so let us go for a three point five Alright and the last criteria is it is it Marketing: Well so I would give it a two Project Manager: Well we have covered that with the User Interface: It is just trendy basically Project Manager: trendy Sure Capable Very capable Industrial Designer: It is capable of being squishy and fruity Marketing: Oh it is very capable of being squishy and fruity Project Manager: And it is very important Kay there we go Marketing: So our re model slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie appears to be a winner and hopefully we will sell millions Good job team Industrial Designer: How did you get that in there ? The slightly resembling a giant delicious cookie","Marketing first presented the evaluation criteria, including whether the remote was easy to use, whether it was fashionable, whether it feels good physically, and some other aspects. Using a seven-point scale from true to false, the team rated the remote on these aspects. All agreed to give 2 points for the remote being easy to use. With slight variations, the average point for it being fashionable is 2.5. The average is 2 for it feeling good physically, and 3.5 for it being technologically innovative. Finally, the team also agreed on it being trendy and capable with a score around 2." "Marketing: No I mean like no I think it is very fashionable I thi I would give it a one Project Manager: One I give it a one Industrial Designer: I will give it a two because at the moment it is not looking that way Project Manager: Oh and ma it is a prototype Marketing: Well that is that is just like that is a clay it is a prototype User Interface: Mm I do not think it is that fashionable Marketing: What do you think ? User Interface: I would give it like three or four Project Manager: So the average is about a two User Interface: But then I am not fashionable so Project Manager: Two or three Two point five User Interface: do not use my opinion Industrial Designer: Neither are all o all the customers we have either","On a 7-point scale from true to false, Project Manager first rated the remote at 1 point for it being undoubtedly fashionable. Yet Industrial Designer immediately objected to this. After Marketing seconded Project Manager's evaluation, Industrial Designer hesitatingly gave it a 2, saying it's not fashionable enough at the moment. When Marketing and Project Manager defended their views by pointing out it's only a prototype they're seeing, Industrial Designer insisted on his objection and rerated it at 3 or 4. This disagreement finally presented the average rating of 2 for the remote on the fashion criterion." "Project Manager: Is it technologically innovative ? Oh sorry I am taking over your job here Marketing: Oh no it is fine you are I mean you are Project Manager I mean and it does it have voice I mean the phrase recognition on it ? Project Manager: Yes Right ? We were able to do it with that kind of chip Industrial Designer: We could do it with the chip yes It was not we have no reflection of it on the prototype Marketing: And there is no way you can represent it on here Y Industrial Designer: but that is because it is only two dimensions really Project Manager: That was kay And we discussed that being included Marketing: Then yes then I would well it is not what else would it need for it to be technologically innovative ? Project Manager: Well we don have the you know we can not say channel and it changes the channel channel eight Marketing: And it does not cover anything other then TV so I would probably give it a three Even though it is for just a TV remote it is very advanced But it is just a TV remote Project Manager: I would go for a three or four on that one so let us go for a three point five","Marketing first wanted to check whether the remote was going to have the phrase recognition function. This function was not reflected on the model they were seeing, but User Interface and Industrial Designer confirmed that it could be realized with a special chip. Marketing thus decided that the remote was technologically innovative enough. Since the remote was only designed for TVs, it was rated 3 by Marketing, 3 or 4 by Project Manager, and 4 by User Interface. With an average of 3.5, they agreed that the remote had reasonable technological innovation and was sufficient for their project." "Project Manager: We can go to I do not know what I just did Now we are going to talk about the project process and whether or not we are satisfied with the whole process and the result did we have a lot of room for creativity ? Did we have a lot of room for individual leadership teamwork and the means meaning the technology that we used to produce our little guy there and if we found any new ideas Now question is how do we do this ? Marketing: I think we just discuss it Project Manager: Alright Who want who would like to go first ? Industrial Designer: We think we got stifled for cri creativity by the company itself in restricting us only to using a TV remote initially User Interface: We did not have a whiteboard Marketing: No that is a good point Because I would forgotten that that was not our decision Project Manager: And how did you feel about the whole the whole process though ? Marketing: Oh overall I mean I thought we did a good job like We got to choose basically we had control over minus it being just merely a TV remote we got to choose what we wanted to do with it Project Manager: Right and we got say over what how technologically advanced it should be and also how fashionable which I kind of like Marketing: And we are a fashion forward technology company Project Manager: we yep You know it what about the teamwork aspect ? How did you guys enjoy making the model the prototype ? User Interface: I think we did well Project Manager: I think ya did Did you work well together in there and Industrial Designer: Well no there was there was scratching and fighting but no Project Manager: and we have all been a pretty congenial team here I think We had not had any ma fallings out Marketing: I mean minus you guys being wha what is it the survey annoying or what is it ? Irritating Wow that is a it is definitely a strong one Industrial Designer: The means the whiteboard did not work Project Manager: I have to knock that one down a couple notches Industrial Designer: A and our friend here really feels strongly about the internet User Interface: There is so much available Marketing: And the digital the digital pens were they were pretty cool they were fun even though I am not really sure what I could do with them but they are awesome Industrial Designer: The use of the laptops for receiving everything Project Manager: Right laptops are extremely handy Industrial Designer: It was wireless too so Project Manager: wireless And that we have a shared network where we can put all of the Industrial Designer: And let us not forget the sexy dual microphones everyone gets to wear Project Manager: Kay have we found any new ideas through this process ? Marketing: we are really going to sell this Project Manager: For something that looks cool and also has what I want it to b do technologically And that is your right brain taking over w wanting the artistic the fashionable the hip you know If we all just went out and bought useful things I do not think I mean that is not what technology User Interface: Well that is why I do not like Macs or Apples just because I look at it and I know it is probably a very good computer but I look at it and I am taken back to elementary school because they look the same","Industrial Designer first pointed out that they got stifled for creativity by the company restricting their product to only a TV remote. User Interface complained about having no whiteboard or Internet. Marketing thought they did a great job in general, having control over the actual design. Industrial Designer and User Interface were satisfied with their teamwork, while Project Manager also commented on them being a congenial team. Further complaints were made on the survey, yet they appreciated the digital pens, wireless laptops, a shared network, dual microphones and Big Brother. Many new ideas were also found through this process." "Industrial Designer: We think we got stifled for cri creativity by the company itself in restricting us only to using a TV remote initially User Interface: We did not have a whiteboard Marketing: No that is a good point Because I would forgotten that that was not our decision","Industrial Designer first complained that their creativity was limited by the company, since their initial idea for a multifunctional remote could not be realized. User Interface then complained about their lack of a whiteboard and the Internet, which was reiterated later in their discussion. Also, Project Manager, Industrial Designer and User Interface all said the survey they conducted was irritating." "Project Manager: And how did you feel about the whole the whole process though ? Marketing: Oh overall I mean I thought we did a good job like We got to choose basically we had control over minus it being just merely a TV remote we got to choose what we wanted to do with it Project Manager: Right and we got say over what how technologically advanced it should be and also how fashionable which I kind of like Marketing: And we are a fashion forward technology company Project Manager: we yep You know it what about the teamwork aspect ? How did you guys enjoy making the model the prototype ? User Interface: I think we did well Project Manager: I think ya did Did you work well together in there and Industrial Designer: Well no there was there was scratching and fighting but no Project Manager: and we have all been a pretty congenial team here I think We had not had any ma fallings out","Marketing commented on the overall process as fairly satisfying, since they had control over most of the detailed design of the remote, how it should be advanced as well as fashionable. As for teamwork, Industrial Designer and User Interface thought they worked well together, and Project Manager praised the team for being congenial. They also appreciated many things that were available to them, including digital pens, wireless laptops, a shared network, dual microphones, and Big Brother. They agreed that many new ideas were developed as well." "Mr. Taylor Bachrach (SkeenaBulkley Valley, NDP): Mr Chair municipalities across Canada are facing a financial crisis They have seen revenues plummet and at the same time the cost of delivering municipal services has risen As the Prime Minister knows municipalities are unable to run deficits and so they are facing the reality of cutbacks and serious cuts to the services that Canadians depend on We know that municipalities are vital during this time to provide services to Canadians They are going to be even more important during the recovery especially when it comes to delivering on the infrastructure programs before us The Federation of Canadian Municipalities and mayors across Canada have called for emergency financial relief for the municipal sector My question for the Prime Minister is when can they expect federal financial support to arrive ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair no government in Canadas history has done more to work with our municipalities with our cities with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to respond to the challenges they are facing and to partner with them Things from infrastructure to investments have made a huge difference right across the country in the quality of life of Canadians in towns large and small from coast to coast to coast As I am sure the member well knows our Constitution requires that most of the funding for municipalities flow through the provinces We are working with the provinces as we continue to work with the cities to ensure that we are able to support this order of government that delivers the vast majority of services to Canadians with very little financial means We know how difficult it is for our cities We will continue","Mr. Taylor Bachrach introduced that municipalities were unable to run deficits and so they were facing the reality of cutbacks and serious cuts to the services that Canadians depend on. Currently, The Federation of Canadian Municipalities and mayors across Canada have called for emergency financial relief for the municipal sector. Since they were very vital to the recovery of the cities under the Covid-19 situation, the government was working with the provinces and the cities, to ensure that it was able to support this order of government that could deliver the vast majority of services to Canadians with very little financial means." "Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Mr Chair I am wondering how the Prime Minister could explain to a bus driver in Vancouver who has been laid off that as a public sector worker she can not access the federal wage subsidy while an equivalent worker in the airline industry gets to keep her job with the federal help of that program Could the Prime Minister explain how that is fair ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair I am happy to explain to the member and to all Canadians that our Constitution creates federal areas of jurisdiction and provincial areas of jurisdiction The airline industry like banking like telecommunications is a federal area of jurisdiction that we have been able to move forward on More than that we brought the Canada emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy to all industries across this country because we knew that as the federal government it was something that we needed to step up on The Chair: We will go back to Mr Bachrach","The Prime Minister was challenged that a bus driver in Vancouver who had been laid off as a public sector worker, could not access the federal wage subsidy while the opposite result happened to another worker in the airline industry. The Prime Minister explained that the airline industry, like banking, like telecommunications, was a federal area of jurisdiction which could receive the promote wage subsidy. However, under the current situation, the federal government was working hard to ensure equal distribution of the whole nation." "Mr. Luc Berthold (MganticL'rable, CPC): Thank you very much MrChair I am going to keep talking about the area of jurisdiction that the Prime Minister likes to talk about except that I want to point out the incompetence of the Liberals in keeping their commitments on infrastructure projects My question is very simple As the provinces gradually restart their economies can the Prime Minister tell us how many projects that the provinces have submitted are waiting for approval from his government ? Mr. Luc Berthold: MrChair I hope that the length of the pause will not be taken out of my time The Chair: No I stopped the clock for your time MsMcKenna you have the floor Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): I am sorry MrChair I was on mute I am very pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories I have spoken with all of my provincial and territorial counterparts over the last couple of weeks Work on our historic infrastructure program is progressing well My department has worked very hard to approve projects and we will continue to do so It is very important to build projects that will create good jobs The Chair: We are returning to MrBerthold Mr. Luc Berthold: We still have not had a response How many projects are currently awaiting government approval ? I know that the minister has been meeting virtually with the provinces over the last few days However there are still hundreds of projects waiting for approval from the Liberal government Rather than wait for the right political opportunity to approve these files will the minister commit today to respecting the provinces and approving by next week all the projects that are sitting on her desk ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: MrChair I am pleased with how we are working with the provinces and territories We are approving projects If the hon member speaks to the provinces and territories he will see how well we are working together We will announce the approval of projects because it is very important for our economy our communities and creating good jobs Mr. Luc Berthold: Does the minister understand that she has not told us how many projects are still pending ? The construction season is very short Approval of a project in July means that work can not begin until next year which will not help revive our economy Hon. Catherine McKenna: I want to make it clear that we have approved hundreds of projects in the last few weeks We will work with the provinces territories municipalities and indigenous communities to implement these projects These projects are important for the economy and the environment as well as for jobs","Hon. Catherine McKenna restated the answer several times that under the Covid-19 situation, although the government was trying hard to cope with different issues while handling the projects at the same time, things took time to finish the process. Moreover, Hon. Catherine McKenna assured the committee that the government was taking every method of solving the problem. However, this answer was challenged by Mr. Luc Berthold who insisted the ministry had not given an exact number." "Hon. Ed Fast (Abbotsford, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair This question is directed to the Minister of Foreign Affairs On March 28 the minister personally tweeted out a thank you to the Peoples Republic of China for donating PPE to Canada This tweet happened within three hours of Chinas announcement of that gift As it turned out much of the PPE was defective and could not be used More recently Taiwan donated half a million surgical masks to Canada yet here we are two weeks later and the minister has yet to personally thank Taiwan for its generosity Will the minister now thank this free and democratic country for its generous gift to Canadians ? Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Mr Chair I would like to thank my colleague for the question Indeed we are very grateful to every nation for helping Canada This is a global pandemic that knows no borders We have been expressing our thanks to many nations that have contributed We will continue to do so It is important in a time of pandemic Mr Chair that we not play politics and that humanity comes together I can say after my COVID foreign ministers call that the world community has come together to make sure that supply chains will remain intact and that we will have transit hubs and air bridges We will continue to work with every nation when it comes to health This is a public good We want to work together with everyone The Chair: We will go back to Mr Fast now Hon. Ed Fast: Well Mr Chair I did not hear a thank you there so I am going to try again On May 4 the Government of Taiwan delivered 25000 surgical masks to the Government of British Columbia On hand were BC Minister of Citizens Services Anne Kang and Minister of State for Child Care Katrina Chen who as ministers officially thanked the Government of Taiwan for its donation Again will the minister now do the right thing and on behalf of Canadians recognize the generosity of Taiwan and thank its government for that timely donation ? Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: Mr Chair as I said to you before Canada is grateful to all who have given supplies to Canada This is a common endeavour We are thankful We are grateful to every nation and we will continue to be As I said when it comes to global health when it comes to helping each other I think it is a duty for all to come together We are grateful and thankful for all those who have agreed to help Canada and Canadians from coast to coast to coast in times of need I have repeated that and have said many times in many forums that we are grateful and thankful to all of those who are helping Canada Hon. Ed Fast: Well Mr Chair again there was no specific thank you to Taiwan The Government of Taiwan has been the world leader in successfully fighting the COVID19 pandemic We have a lot to learn from them and their response Sadly the Peoples Republic of China continues to oppose Taiwans membership in the World Health Organization Will the minister now do the right thing and assure Canadians that he will fully support efforts to grant Taiwan membership in the World Health Organization ? Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne: Mr Chair I would like to thank the member As a former trade minister he is very well aware of Canadas one China policy That said we support Taiwan to continue meaningful participation in international multilateral forums particularly when it comes to health This is a global good and we want to support every nation We recognize that Taiwan and others have been doing very well in fighting this pandemic We also believe that Taiwans role as an observer in the World Health Assembly meeting is of interest to the international health community and we have been supportive of that",The Minister of Foreign Affairs suggested the importance of One China agreement but also expressed great gratitudes towards all the donors across the world. The cooperation between every area in the world was welcomed and it would be glad to see global efforts to battle the Covid-19 virus. "Mr. Terry Dowdall: I am going to switch it over Canadians in my riding who suffer from cystic fibrosis are among the most vulnerable to COVID19 infection While these Canadians with existing lung conditions are incredibly worried about a virus that attacks the ability to breathe the good news is that there are lifesaving medicines for those with CF The problem is with the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board and its restrictive guidelines I am wondering if and when the government will correct these guidelines and give access to lifesaving medicines for our most vulnerable Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr Chair as you know the government has been very committed to improving access and affordability for prescription medications for all Canadians The PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians be able to afford their prescriptions and Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines In fact many countries with much lower medicine prices gained access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada frame or even faster so we are excited to do this work Mr. Terry Dowdall: Mr Chair our seniors are being particularly hard hit right now during this pandemic yet seniors have not been given any direct support It is one of the number one calls I am getting in my office Funding to charities like the United Way is being labelled as support for seniors but most will not see any of this support Seniors in my riding have asked for an increase in their CPP and OAS and to be able to make untaxed bulk withdrawals from their RRSPs while they still have some value Can the minister confirm when these real and direct supports for seniors will be forthcoming ? Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic He mentioned I am not quite sure what is happening with my machine I apologize The Chair: You might want to try your space bar and keep it down while you are speaking That might solve the problem Hon. Deb Schulte: I will try that Thank you very much I want to assure the honourable member and Canadians that our government has been working extremely hard on how best to support and serve seniors during this pandemic We have introduced a supplementary GST payment for low and modestincome seniors We have reduced the minimum RRIF withdrawal by 25 and we have made the CERB available to working seniors who have lost their jobs due to the COVID pandemic We know there is more work to do and we will have more to say in the future The Chair: I want to remind honourable members that if there are issues we are taking note of them and we will hopefully resolve them by the next meeting We are getting much better and we are all new at this Thank you for your patience We will now go to MsGaudreau","Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health) introduced that the government had been very committed to improving access and affordability for prescription medications for all Canadians. The PMPRB regulatory amendments would help Canadians be able to afford their prescriptions, and Canada would continue to be an important market for new medicines. However, it was challenged that seniors were being particularly hard hit right now during this pandemic, yet seniors had not been given any direct support. As a promise, the government assured the committee that appropriate attention had been paid to the senior patients." "Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau (LaurentidesLabelle, BQ): Thank you MrChair My first question is for the Prime Minister We have heard a lot about contact tracing apps Several provinces have already made announcements on this and others want to follow suit Today I would like to know where the government stands on this We have been talking about a national strategy for some time Where are we now ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you Mr Chair Obviously contact tracing is an important part of managing any outbreak In fact we have been looking at a number of ways to support increased contact tracing across the country including working with provinces and territories to boost their capacity through human resources and volunteer organizations We are working very closely with them to make sure we have the capacity The member is right that many other countries have used digital contact tracing apps Anything we put forward as a digital tool to assist with contact tracing would be thoroughly considerate of Canadians privacy rights Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: Let me clarify my question a little Yes we are talking about public health and we are currently experiencing a crisis But you know as well as I do that the Privacy Commissioner has been calling us to task for a very long time now because there is also a crisis of confidence You know as well as I do that for 90of Canadians the misuse of their personal data is a because for concern whether it be for profiling or business development purposes This is an issue that concerns all Canadians The commissioner is indeed calling for a focus on reform of the Privacy Act I would like to know whether this commitment will be implemented quickly so that legislation can be passed on this issue in this case the Privacy Act Hon. Navdeep Bains: Particular attention must be paid to transparency privacy and ethical concerns Naturally Canadians are concerned about how their data is used New technologies are subject to the Privacy Act Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: We are talking about public health The provinces are currently in the process of legislating We are talking about what is going on in Quebec among other places and I would like to make sure that the federal government commits to respecting the proposals regarding geolocation and contact tracing possibilities with full respect for the right to privacy Can we commit to respecting the provinces ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Thank you Mr Chair We have worked very closely with provinces and territories for a long time before the outbreak but certainly ever since the outbreak We respect the rights of jurisdictional authorities to use tools that have been properly vetted through their own provincial and territorial legislation Nothing we would ever do at the federal level would put Canadians privacy in jeopardy Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau: Concerning privacy there are 30million Quebeckers and Canadians who have had their personal data leaked Why is it that our laws do not allow us to apply financial penalties so that we can then go further ? The very basis is to be concerned about our fundamental rights The commissioner has been making this request for several years now As the critic for access to information and privacy I would like a commitment that the federal government will deal not with what the provinces are doing but with the Privacy Act The Chair: Your time is up but I will give the floor to the minister for 30seconds Hon. Navdeep Bains: Thank you for the question Our government will ensure the privacy of Canadians is respected support responsible innovation and take reasonable steps to strengthen enforcement powers That is why we created a digital charter We are strengthening Canadas privacy laws in response to the digital age","Hon. Patty Hajdu introduced that contact tracing was an important part of managing any outbreak. In fact, the government had been looking at a number of ways to support increased contact tracing across the country, including working with provinces and territories to boost their capacity through human resources and volunteer organizations. However, it was challenged that the Privacy Commissioner had suggested if there was also a crisis of confidence. And it was assured that particular attention must be paid to transparency, privacy and ethical concerns to ensure privacy." "Hon. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Thank you Mr Chair At the finance committee we have heard a lot of concerns from all sectors of the economy as a result of COVID19 and we have been presented with quite a number of possible solutions as well several of which the government has acted upon My question is on the support offered to the agrifood sector announced on Tuesday It is very welcome support but I sincerely believe the farm sector will be taking the Prime Minister up on the suggestion that 250 million should be seen as an initial investment Potatoes are the number one commodity in Prince Edward Island However as a result of reduced processor contracts for next year plus cancelled seed contracts millions of dollars of seed and process potatoes have no home To make matters worse farmers have high fixed costs that they now have to spread over fewer acres How does the minister see Tuesdays announcement addressing potato farmers concerns ? Second in 2013 longterm financial safety nets were gutted by the Harper government Will the minister be coming forward with improved business risk management programs as a result ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): Mr Chair I want to thank Mr Easter the member for the riding of Malpeque on Prince Edward Island It is a beautiful rural riding with lots of agricultural production I want to recognize the hard work of farmers throughout the crisis On Tuesday I was proud to announce one more step for supporting our producers and processors We know the importance of our potato farmers and that is why we are launching a firstever surplus food purchase program a 50million fund designed to help redistribute existing inventories such as potatoes to local food organizations On the financial safety net that we have in place for our farmers called the business risk management program we announced up to 125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and made changes to AgriStability that will help producers quickly I will continue to discuss with my provincial counterparts toenhance and improve the BRM programs In the meantime I want to reiterate that BRM programs including AgriInvest are there to help farmers in difficult times","It was believed that the farm sector would be taking the Prime Minister up on the suggestion that $250 million should be seen as an initial investment. On the financial safety net that the government had in place for the farmers, called the business risk management program, which was announced up to $125 million in funding through AgriRecovery and made changes to AgriStability that would help producers quickly." "Mr. Todd Doherty: When will the government announce a relief package for Canadas aviation industry ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: We are engaged with the industry and we are working with them on a solution Mr Chair Mr. Todd Doherty: Mr Chair will this relief package include funding for airline ticket refunds similar to what other countries around the world have done ? Yes or no ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: It is early to say anything at this moment We are taking a sectoral approach This is about making sure that we restart the economy and have a strong recovery Mr. Todd Doherty: Can the Minister of Transport confirm that temperature screening is taking place at Canadian airports Yes or no ? Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr Chair I can confirm that Air Canada has now adopted a policy of checking temperatures for passengers boarding Air Canada flights Mr. Todd Doherty: At which airports is that and when did this practice start ? Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr Chair the announcement was made recently by Air Canada It will start shortly and will apply to all places and destinations where Air Canada flies",It would be carried out soon and the relief package would include funding for airline ticket refunds similar to what other countries around the world had done. The announcement was made recently by Air Canada. It would start shortly and would apply to all places and destinations where Air Canada flew. "Ms. Raquel Dancho (KildonanSt. Paul, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Small businesses in Manitoba employ 73 of Manitobans That is over 286000 Manitobans I have been speaking with many small business owners in my riding It is been heartbreaking frankly to hear that everything they have built and sacrificed for is in serious jeopardy and through no fault of their own Your government has created programs that are supposed to help them but many legitimate businesses are not able to apply That could mean bankruptcy and cost thousands of Manitobans jobs This is wrong I am hoping to hear specifics not just nice words on what you are going to do to help them There are three issues regarding access to the 40000 CEBA loan First businesses that recently incorporatedfor example in late 2019are unable to apply their entire 2019 payroll As a result many are falling short of the 20000 payroll threshold required to qualify for this loan Second many businesses contract their employees rather than have them on payroll They also are unable to qualify for this loan Third many businesses use personal rather than business banking accounts They are not able to qualify for this loan either What is your government going to do about these three scenarios ? The Chair: I just want to remind honourable members to place their questions through the Chair and not directly to the minister As well please take into consideration the interpreters who have to listen and translate so that we can have this conversation Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair I want to thank the honourable member for that question Right from the very beginning we have always said that we will listen and that we will work to make sure that measures go out to help our Canadian small businesses She is absolutely right : 98 of all our businesses in this country are small businesses so they absolutely contribute enormously to our communities and are job creators That is why we have put out significant measures For the Canada emergency business account over 550000 small businesses have been approved and are getting that support I absolutely acknowledge that there is more work to do I can assure the honourable member that we will continue to do this work so that businesses all businesses are supported whether it is helping keep your employees together helping with rent support helping to keep your businesss expenses low or of course helping with the capital that is needed so that you can pay your operating expenses and your bills through this difficult time","As a fact, 98% of all the businesses in this country were small businesses, so they absolutely contributed enormously to the communities and were job creators. That was why the government had put out significant measures. For the Canada emergency business account, over 550,000 small businesses have been approved and were getting that support." Ms. Raquel Dancho: Mr Chair I did not hear any answers from the ministers remarks unfortunately Moving on there are two issues regarding the 50 commercial rent assistance subsidy where landlords pay 25 the government pays 50 and the tenant is responsible for 25 First many of the small landlords are not able to take a 25 hit to their income and are unable to provide the subsidy to their tenants Second with the 70 decline in revenue threshold for small businesses to even be eligible for the rent assist many restaurants are at 65 or 67 decline They desperately need this subsidy but are not able to qualify This is not about problems with the program details What is the government planning to do to streamline this program for small businesses that can not access but desperately need the rent subsidy ?,"Currently, there were two issues regarding the 50% commercial rent assistance subsidy, where landlords paid 25%, the government paid 50%, and the tenant was responsible for 25%. The government had been working with the provinces and territories to provide this forgivable loan to commercial property owners, who in turn would lower the rent of their tenants by 75%. The government would continue to monitor how this program was delivered." "Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): Thank you Madam Chair Three weeks ago on April 17 the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced funding of 500 million to assist Canadas arts sports and cultural sectors We are still waiting to hear who is eligible and when they can expect to receive this funding Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Madam Chair we will be releasing the details of that announcement and how the money is going to be spent in the coming days","On April 17, the Minister of Canadian Heritage announced funding of $500 million to assist Canada's arts, sports and cultural sectors. Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage) suggested that the department would be releasing the details of that announcement, and how the money was going to be spent in the coming days." "Mr. Jol Godin: Thank you The Prime Ministers answer during his appearance on Tout le monde en parle did not inspire much confidence and does not line up with the Deputy Prime Ministers comments How can the government be proud of announcing 252million in assistance for the agrifood sector when that is less than 1 of all the program funding the government has committed to help Canadians get through the COVID19 crisis ? Clearly the government does not see the food supply chain as a priority and has no regard for farmers and pork and beef producers Does the government realize that eating is vital to Canadians ? When is the Minister of Agriculture and AgriFood going to adjust the program and show respect for Canadian farmers ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I have the utmost respect for farmers We are going step by step We have already confirmed various supports for the agricultural sector This week we focused on beef and pork producers and processors as well as sectors with product surpluses that can be redirected to food banks I can assure my fellow member that this is an additional step and that more supports are on the way in the weeks ahead Bear in mind that a number of programs are already available to farmers Mr. Jol Godin: I would like to switch topics now PortneufJacquesCartier is home to a company that is already licensed by Health Canada and that for 20years has been manufacturing medical equipment including masks face shields and thermometers This is equipment our health workers need The company has a licence from the federal government In midMarch Health Canada reached out to the company to find out how much equipment it could manufacture to help fight COVID19 The company confirmed that it could immediately start producing 200000masks a week ramping up to a million masks over the next few weeks Fortyfive days later it is still waiting on its first order from the Canadian government We are managing a crisis with a limited supply of medical equipment Can the health minister tell us why 45days later this company licensed by Health Canada has not received an order ? Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Thank you for the question Industry and suppliers have enthusiastically answered our call to equip Canada with products and goods during the crisis Many of those suppliers have already received contracts We have reached out to all the others and will negotiate contracts as needed","It was suggested that farmers and relative products were largely influenced by Covid-19. Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau introduced that the government had already confirmed various supports for the agricultural sector. This week, the government focused on beef and pork producers and processors, as well as sectors with product surpluses that could be redirected to food banks. At the same time, industry and suppliers had enthusiastically answered the call to equip Canada with products and goods during the crisis." "Industrial Designer: And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room so that if if it is in the day it does not need to be back lighted because it works on the battery so So something like this And the second thing f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is there are two buttons for volume control But I prefer like a potentialmeter or something like You know some slider or Not just two discrete buttons for volume Marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels or is that Industrial Designer: but I can reach In one second I can mute it down or or make a high volume Project Manager: Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could the the volume can go up very quickly Industrial Designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream Project Manager: also if y when you take the the remote control for example on the table you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud and Industrial Designer: f It depends what what you feel about that","Firstly, remote control without backlight was inconvenient to use in the dark room. Secondly, the industrial designer preferred a potential-meter for volume control instead of two buttons." Project Manager: The So I will ask you to do some work the the interface interface developer will work on the on the design of the remote control start to to have new idea and,Interface developer was asked to work on the design of the remote control. User interface designer was asked to work on the technical functions of the remote control while marketing was responsible for finding the user requirements for the remote control. "Industrial Designer: But I prefer like a potentialmeter or something like You know some slider or Not just two discrete buttons for volume Marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels or is that Industrial Designer: but I can reach In one second I can mute it down or or make a high volume","Users can't change the volume rapidly by using two discrete buttons for volume. While by using a potential-meter or a slider, the user can mute it down or make a high volume in one second." Project Manager: So so today we are doing a short meeting to present the project so We are gooding we are going to present the tool we are we are going to use during all this project We are talking about the project plan and we are going to to discuss about st our first ideas and so on and So we have around twenty five minutes to do this meeting So what is the goal of this project ? Is to design a new remote control So it should be of course new and original and it should be trendy and user friendly That mean it is a very challenging project and So w it is we will try to do our best and hopefully come with something very new and that people want to buy So So what is what are we going to do during this all this project ? So it is more like we are going to do inv individual work all in o in o our specialities and we are going to meet each other quite often to discuss and to find a good way and everything is will be like this so now we are going to to get used t to to the tools we are going to use all during all this project So we can try to use the whiteboard here So,The project manager considered that the goal of the new remote control project was to design a new and original remote control which is trendy and user-friendly. He wanted its price to be 25 Euro and it would be sold all over the world. "Project Manager: so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control and any idea ? So if you have some experience good or bad with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea Anything Marketing: Well from experience I have had remote controls in the past that have had very they have had lots and lots of buttons and they have been very small and it is been very hard to to to use because there is so many buttons and you know it is very hard to see which buttons do what and the buttons are very small and very hard to press and and normally you only every use you know on a TV remote you only ever use mostly you know f four or f six buttons So it is frustrated me in the past th that Industrial Designer: I have also some points Maybe two points first would be that in current remote controls there is no back light so if you are if you are playing with this in the dark room it is it is probably worth to to have something like back light And maybe it could be also dependant on the the amount of of light in the room so that if if it is in the day it does not need to be back lighted because it works on the battery so So something like this And the second thing f second point from me would be that in a normal remote control there is there are two buttons for volume control But I prefer like a potentialmeter or something like You know some slider or Not just two discrete buttons for volume Marketing: Is that because the of the discrete volume levels or is that Industrial Designer: but I can reach In one second I can mute it down or or make a high volume Project Manager: Are you not afraid that if you take your remote control you can move the slide and it could the the volume can go up very quickly Industrial Designer: If it drops to the floor then it starts to scream Project Manager: also if y when you take the the remote control for example on the table you take it and you push the button and everything is very loud and Industrial Designer: f It depends what what you feel about that Project Manager: you have a heart attack Industrial Designer: but we can we can think of these things afterwards but if you have some more notes on that Project Manager: Do you have something ? User Interface: just a simple experience I I prefer remote control working with radio waves because remote control working with infrared rays you should you should you should keep it in a specific direction and then try it hard to tune Project Manager: that is true without obstacles and","When there are many buttons on the remote control, it's hard to see each buttons' function and it's hard to press small buttons. Remote control without backlight was inconvenient to use in a dark room. Remote control without a potential-meter for volume control couldn't be used to mute the TV down or make a high volume in a second. When using remote control working with infra-red rays, users should keep it in a specific direction and it's hard to tune." "Project Manager: so we can start today to have a first idea of what we want to do what are our experiments with remote control and any idea ? So if you have some experience good or bad with remote controls you can share it and say what you f what is your idea Anything Marketing: Well from experience I have had remote controls in the past that have had very they have had lots and lots of buttons and they have been very small and it is been very hard to to to use because there is so many buttons and you know it is very hard to see which buttons do what and the buttons are very small and very hard to press and and normally you only every use you know on a TV remote you only ever use mostly you know f four or f six buttons So it is frustrated me in the past th that",Because it was hard to see which button did what when there were many buttons on the remote control. And the buttons were too small to press. "Professor E: OK Right So How are how are things going with what you are doing ? Grad D: Oh Well I took a lot of time just getting my taxes out of the way multi national taxes So I m I m starting to write code now for my work but I do not have any results yet i it would be good for me to talk to Hynek I think when he s here Do you know what his schedule will be like ? Professor E: he will be around for three days we will have a lot of time So I will You know he s he will he will be talking with everybody in this room So PhD F: But you said you will not you will not be here next Thursday ? Professor E: Not Thursday and Friday Cuz I will be at faculty retreat So I will try to connect with him and people as as I can on on Wednesday But Oh how would taxes go ? Taxes go OK ? Oh good That s just that s that s one of the big advantages of not making much money is the taxes are easier PhD F: Unless you are getting money in two countries Professor E: I think you are Are not you ? PhD F: They both want their cut Professor E: Huh Canada w Canada wants a cut ? Have to do So you you have to do two returns ? Grad D: Mmm W for two thousand I did Professor E: Oh oh For tw That s right ju PhD F: But not for this next year ? Professor E: Two thousand Probably not this next year I guess Grad D: I will I will still have a bit of Canadian income but it will be less complicated because I will not be a considered a resident of Canada anymore so I will not have to declare my American income on my Canadian return","Grad D was focused on filing his taxes. He explained to the team that he had both Canadian and US income, so he had to file taxes in both countries for the preceding year." "Grad D: Oh Well I took a lot of time just getting my taxes out of the way multi national taxes So I m I m starting to write code now for my work but I do not have any results yet i it would be good for me to talk to Hynek I think when he s here Do you know what his schedule will be like ? Professor E: he will be around for three days we will have a lot of time So I will You know he s he will he will be talking with everybody in this room So PhD F: But you said you will not you will not be here next Thursday ? Professor E: Not Thursday and Friday Cuz I will be at faculty retreat So I will try to connect with him and people as as I can on on Wednesday But Oh how would taxes go ? Taxes go OK ? Oh good That s just that s that s one of the big advantages of not making much money is the taxes are easier PhD F: Unless you are getting money in two countries Professor E: I think you are Are not you ? PhD F: They both want their cut Professor E: Huh Canada w Canada wants a cut ? Have to do So you you have to do two returns ? Grad D: Mmm W for two thousand I did Professor E: Oh oh For tw That s right ju PhD F: But not for this next year ? Professor E: Two thousand Probably not this next year I guess Grad D: I will I will still have a bit of Canadian income but it will be less complicated because I will not be a considered a resident of Canada anymore so I will not have to declare my American income on my Canadian return","Grad D thought that his tax returns were taking too much time. He had started writing code for his work, however. He was expecting that his taxes would be easier next year, since he would not have to declare his Canadian income." "Professor E: Oh good That s just that s that s one of the big advantages of not making much money is the taxes are easier PhD F: Unless you are getting money in two countries Professor E: I think you are Are not you ? PhD F: They both want their cut Professor E: Huh Canada w Canada wants a cut ? Have to do So you you have to do two returns ? Grad D: Mmm W for two thousand I did Professor E: Oh oh For tw That s right ju PhD F: But not for this next year ? Professor E: Two thousand Probably not this next year I guess Grad D: I will I will still have a bit of Canadian income but it will be less complicated because I will not be a considered a resident of Canada anymore so I will not have to declare my American income on my Canadian return",The professor initially suggested that not making too much money made taxes easier. He learned that Canada wants taxes from Grad D. He also wanted to know if the same would hold for the coming year. "Professor E: OK Alright Barry do you want to pause say something about your stuff here ? Grad A: Oh Right I pause just continuing looking at ph phonetic events and this Tuesday going to be meeting with John Ohala with Chuck to talk some more about these ph phonetic events came up with a plan of attack going to execute and It s that s pretty much it Professor E: Oh well No why do not you say something about what it is ? Grad A: Oh you oh you want you want details OK Professor E: Well we are all gathered here together I thought we would you know Grad A: I was hoping I could wave my hands So So once wa I I was thinking getting getting us a set of acoustic events to to be able to distinguish between phones and words and stuff And once we we would figure out a set of these events that can be you know hand labeled or or derived from h the hand labeled phone targets we could take these events and do some cheating experiments where we feed these events into pause an SRI system eh and evaluate its performance on a Switchboard task Grad D: Hey Barry ? Can you give an example of an event ? Grad A: Sure I I can give you an example of pause twenty odd events So he In this paper it s talking about phoneme recognition using acoustic events So things like frication or nasality Professor E: Whose paper is it ? Grad A: this is a paper by Hubener and Cardson pause Benson Bernds Berndsen Professor E: Huh From University of Hamburg and Bielefeld PhD F: I think the just to expand a little bit on the idea of acoustic event There s in my mind anyways there s a difference between acoustic features and acoustic events And I think of acoustic features as being things that linguists talk about like Professor E: So stuff that s not based on data PhD F: Stuff that s not based on data necessarily Right That s not based on you know acoustic data So they talk about features for phones like its height its tenseness laxness things like that which may or may not be all that easy to measure in the acoustic signal Versus an acoustic event which is just nonvocalsound some nonvocalsound something in the acoustic signal nonvocalsound that is fairly easy to measure So it s it s a little different in at least in my mind Professor E: I mean when we did the SPAM work I mean there we had we had this notion of an auditory comment auditory event And called them `` avents `` with an A at the front And the the the idea was something that occurred that is important to a bunch of neurons somewhere So A sudden change or a relatively rapid change in some spectral characteristic will will do sort of this I mean there s certainly a bunch of a bunch of places where you know that neurons are going to fire because something novel has happened That was that was the main thing that we were focusing on there But there s certainly other things beyond what we talked about there that are not just sort of rapid changes but PhD F: It s kind of like the difference between top down and bottom up I think of the acoustic you know phonetic features as being top down You know you look at the phone and you say this phone is supposed to be you know have this feature this feature and this feature Whether tha those features show up in the acoustic signal is sort of irrelevant Whereas an acoustic event goes the other way Here s the signal Here s some event What ? And then that you know that may map to this phone sometimes and sometimes it may not It just depen maybe depends on the context things like that And so it s sort of a different way of looking Grad A: Mm Using these these events you know we can we can perform these these cheating experiments See how how how good they are in in terms of phoneme recognition or word recognition And and then from that point on I would s design robust event detectors in a similar wa spirit that Saul has done w with his graphical models and this this probabilistic AND OR model that he uses eh try to extend it to to account for other other phenomena like CMR co modulation release And and maybe also investigate ways to to modify the structure of these models in a data driven way similar to the way that Jeff Jeff Bilmes did his work and while I m I m doing these event detectors you know I can ma mea measure my progress by comparing the error rates in clean and noisy conditions to something like neural nets and So so once we have these these event detectors we could put them together and and feed the outputs of the event detectors into into the SRI HMM HMM system and and test it on on Switchboard or maybe even Aurora stuff And that s pretty much the the big picture of of the plan Professor E: By the way there s a couple people who are going to be here I forget if I already told you this but a couple people who are going to be here for six months there s a Professor Kollmeier from Germany who s quite big in the hearing aid signal processing area and Michael Kleinschmidt who s worked with him who also looks at auditory properties inspired by various brain function things So I think they will be interesting to talk to in this sort of issue as these detectors are are developing So he looks at interesting interesting things in in the different ways of looking at spectra in order to to get various speech properties out So OK Well short meeting but that s OK And we might as well do our digits And like I say I I encourage you to go ahead and meet next week with Hynek Alright I will I will start It s one thirty five seventeen OK",Grad A explained that he was trying to collect a set of acoustic events to help distinguish between various linguistic features. The team distinguished between acoustic features and acoustic events. Acoustic events were a feature of the acoustic signal that could be derived from the data. "PhD F: There s in my mind anyways there s a difference between acoustic features and acoustic events And I think of acoustic features as being things that linguists talk about like Professor E: So stuff that s not based on data PhD F: Stuff that s not based on data necessarily Right That s not based on you know acoustic data So they talk about features for phones like its height its tenseness laxness things like that which may or may not be all that easy to measure in the acoustic signal Versus an acoustic event which is just nonvocalsound some nonvocalsound something in the acoustic signal nonvocalsound that is fairly easy to measure So it s it s a little different in at least in my mind Professor E: I mean when we did the SPAM work I mean there we had we had this notion of an auditory comment auditory event And called them `` avents `` with an A at the front And the the the idea was something that occurred that is important to a bunch of neurons somewhere So A sudden change or a relatively rapid change in some spectral characteristic will will do sort of this I mean there s certainly a bunch of a bunch of places where you know that neurons are going to fire because something novel has happened That was that was the main thing that we were focusing on there But there s certainly other things beyond what we talked about there that are not just sort of rapid changes but PhD F: It s kind of like the difference between top down and bottom up I think of the acoustic you know phonetic features as being top down You know you look at the phone and you say this phone is supposed to be you know have this feature this feature and this feature Whether tha those features show up in the acoustic signal is sort of irrelevant Whereas an acoustic event goes the other way Here s the signal Here s some event","PhD F explained the difference between acoustic features and acoustic events. Acoustic features are what linguists talk about whereas acoustic events are measurable properties of the acoustic signal, like its height." "Professor E: I mean when we did the SPAM work I mean there we had we had this notion of an auditory comment auditory event And called them `` avents `` with an A at the front And the the the idea was something that occurred that is important to a bunch of neurons somewhere So A sudden change or a relatively rapid change in some spectral characteristic will will do sort of this I mean there s certainly a bunch of a bunch of places where you know that neurons are going to fire because something novel has happened That was that was the main thing that we were focusing on there But there s certainly other things beyond what we talked about there that are not just sort of rapid changes but PhD F: It s kind of like the difference between top down and bottom up I think of the acoustic you know phonetic features as being top down You know you look at the phone and you say this phone is supposed to be you know have this feature this feature and this feature Whether tha those features show up in the acoustic signal is sort of irrelevant Whereas an acoustic event goes the other way Here s the signal Here s some event What ? And then that you know that may map to this phone sometimes and sometimes it may not It just depen maybe depends on the context things like that And so it s sort of a different way of looking Grad A: Mm Using these these events you know we can we can perform these these cheating experiments See how how how good they are in in terms of phoneme recognition or word recognition And and then from that point on I would s design robust event detectors in a similar wa spirit that Saul has done w with his graphical models and this this probabilistic AND OR model that he uses eh try to extend it to to account for other other phenomena like CMR co modulation release And and maybe also investigate ways to to modify the structure of these models in a data driven way similar to the way that Jeff Jeff Bilmes did his work and while I m I m doing these event detectors you know I can ma mea measure my progress by comparing the error rates in clean and noisy conditions to something like neural nets and So so once we have these these event detectors we could put them together and and feed the outputs of the event detectors into into the SRI HMM HMM system and and test it on on Switchboard or maybe even Aurora stuff And that s pretty much the the big picture of of the plan Professor E: By the way there s a couple people who are going to be here I forget if I already told you this but a couple people who are going to be here for six months there s a Professor Kollmeier from Germany who s quite big in the hearing aid signal processing area and Michael Kleinschmidt who s worked with him who also looks at auditory properties inspired by various brain function things So I think they will be interesting to talk to in this sort of issue as these detectors are are developing","The professor recalled that the SPAM work had something similar to acoustic events, auditory events. He also informed the team that Professors Kollmeier and Professor Kleinschmidt will be visiting for six months, and they may know more about this topic." "Postdoc F: OK it s it s very pause eh it s pause very brief I mean just let me just hand these out Oops Grad H: Is this the same as the email or different ? Postdoc F: It s slightly different I pause basically the same But same idea So if you ve looked at this you ve seen it before so pause Basically pause as you know pause part of the encoding pause includes a mark that indicates pause an overlap It s not indicated pause with pause tight precision it s just indicated that OK so It s indicated to to so the people know pause what parts of sp which which stretches of speech were in the clear versus being overlapped by others So I pause used this mark and pause and pause pause divided the I wrote a script pause which divides things into individual minutes pause of which we ended up with forty pause five and a little bit And pause you know minute zero of course is the first minute up to pause sixty seconds And pause What you can see is the number of overlaps pause and then pause to the right pause whether they involve two speakers three speakers or more than three speakers And pause pause and what I was looking for sp sp specifically was the question of pause whether they are distributed evenly throughout or whether they are pause bursts of them And pause it looked to me as though you know y this is just pause eh eh this would this is not statistically pause verified pause but it pause did look to me as though there are bursts throughout rather than being pause localized to a particular region The part down there where there s the maximum number of pause of pause overlaps is an area where we were discussing pause whether or not it would be useful to indi to s to pause code pause stress pause sentence stress pause as possible indication of pause information retrieval So it s like pause you know rather pause lively discussion there Professor D: What was what s the the parenthesized stuff pause that says like e the first one that says six overlaps and then two point eight ? Postdoc F: Oh th pause That s the per cent So six is pause two point eight percent pause of the total number of overlaps in the pause session At the very end this is when people were pause you know packing up to go basically there s pause this final stuff I think we pause I do not remember where the digits pause fell I would have to look at that But pause the final three there are no overlaps at all And pause couple times there pause are not So i it seems like it goes through bursts pause but pause that s kind of it Now pause Another question is pause is there are there pause individual differences in whether you are likely to be overlapped with or to overlap with others And again pause I want to emphasize this is just one pause particular pause pause one particular meeting and also there s been no statistical testing of it all but pause I pause I took the coding of pause the I you know my I had this script pause figure out pause who pause was the first speaker who was the second speaker involved in a two person overlap I did not look at the ones involving three or more And pause pause this is how it breaks down in the individual cells of pause who tended to be overlapping most often with who who else and pause if you look at the marginal totals which is the ones on the right side and across the bottom you get pause the totals for an individual So pause If you pause look at the bottom those are the pause numbers of overlaps in which pause pause Adam was involved as the person doing the overlapping and if you look I m sorry but you are o alphabetical that s why I m choosing you And then if you look across the right pause then pause that s where he was the pause person who was the sp first speaker in the pair pause and got overlap overlapped with by somebody And pause then if you look down in the summary table pause then you see that pause th they are differences in pause whether a person got overlapped with or pause overlapped by Grad H: Is this pause just raw counts or is it So it would be interesting to see how much each person spoke Postdoc F: Yes very true very true it would be good to normalize with respect to that Now on the table I did pause take one step toward pause away from the raw frequencies by putting pause pause percentages So that the percentage of time pause of the of the times that a person spoke pause what percentage pause eh w so Of the times a person spoke and furthermore was involved in a two two person overlap what percentage of the time were they the overlapper and what percent of the time were they th the overlappee ? And there it looks like you see some differences pause that some people tend to be overlapped pause with more often than they are overlapped but of course i e this is just one meeting pause pause there s no statistical testing involved and that would be pause required for a for a finding pause of pause any pause kind of pause scientific pause reliability Professor D: S so i it would be statistically incorrect to conclude from this that Adam talked too much or something Grad H: No no actually that would be actually statistically correct Postdoc F: That s right And I m pause you know I m I do not see a point of singling people out Professor D: B I I I rather enjoyed it but but this Postdoc F: now this is a case where obviously PhD A: But the numbers speak for themselves Postdoc F: Well you know it s like I m not I m not saying on the tape who did pause better or worse Grad H: Yes that s right so you do not nee OK Postdoc F: because pause I do not think that it s I pause you know and and th here s a case where of course human subjects people would say be sure that you anonymize the results pause and and so might as well do this Grad H: when this is what This is actually when Jane sent this email first is what caused me to start thinking about anonymizing the data Postdoc F: Well fair enough Fair enough And actually pause you know the point is not about an individual it s the point about pause tendencies toward pause you know different styles different speaker styles And pause it would be you know pause of course pause there s also the question of what type of overlap was this and w what were they and i and I and I know that I can distinguish at least three types and probably more I mean the general pause cultural idea which w the conversation analysts originally started with in the seventies was that we have this strict model where politeness involves that you let the person finish th before you start talking and pause and you know I mean pause w we know that pause an and they ve loosened up on that too s in the intervening time that pause that that s that s viewed as being pause a culturally relative thing I mean pause that you have the high involvement style from the East Coast where people will overlap often as an indication of interest in what the other person is saying And Well there you go Fine that s alright that s OK And and pause you know in contrast so Deborah d and also Deborah Tannen s pause thesis she talked about differences of these types pause that they are just different styles and it s pause you you can not impose a model of pause there of the ideal being no overlaps and pause you know conversational analysts also agree with that so it s pause now universally pause a ag agreed with And and als I mean I can not say universally but anyway the people who used to say it was strict pause pause now pause do not I mean they they pause also pause you know pause ack acknowledge the influence of pause sub of subcultural norms and pause cross cultural norms and things So Then it beco pause though so just just superficially to give pause pause a couple ideas of the types of overlaps involved I have at the bottom several that I noticed So pause there are backchannels like what Adam just did now and pause anticipating the end of a question and pause simply answering it earlier and there are several of those in this in these data where because we are pause people who ve talked to each other pause we know pause basically what the topic is what the possibilities are and w and we ve spoken with each other so we know basically what the other person s style is likely to be and so and t there are a number of places where someone just answered early No problem And places pause also which I thought were interesting where two or more people gave exactly th the same answer in unison different words of course but you know the basically pause you know everyone s saying `` yes `` or you know or ev even more sp specific than that So the point is that pause overlap s not necessarily a bad thing and that it would be i am pause i useful to subdivide these further and see if there are individual differences in styles with respect to the types involved And that s all I wanted to say on that pause unless people have questions Professor D: Well of course th the biggest pause pause result here which is one we ve pause we ve talked about many times and is not new to us but which I think would be interesting to show someone who is not familiar with this pause is just the sheer number of overlaps That that Right ? pause that that here s a relatively short meeting it s a forty pause forty plus minute pause meeting and not only were there two hundred and fifteen overlaps pause but pause I think there s one pause one minute there where there where where there was not any overlap ? I mean it s pause throughout this thing ? Postdoc F: Well at the bottom you have the bottom three So four four minutes all together with none none Professor D: Oh so the bottom three did have s stuff going on ? There was speech ? Postdoc F: Yes huh But just no overlaps Professor D: OK so if the this PhD A: It would be interesting to see what the total amount of time is in the overlaps versus Postdoc F: Yes exactly and that s that s where Jose s pro project comes in PhD E: I h I have this that infor I have th that information now PhD G: I was about to ask Professor D: Oh about how much is it ? PhD E: The the duration of eh of each of the overlaps Professor D: O oh what s what s the what s the average pause length ? PhD E: M I I have not averaged it now but pause I I will I will do the the study of the pause with the with the program with the the different pause the nnn pause distribution of the duration of the overlaps Professor D: You do not know ? OK you you don you do not have a feeling for roughly how pause much it is ? PhD E: mmm pause Because the the is The duration is pause the variation the variation of the duration is very big on the dat Postdoc F: I suspect that it will also differ pause depending on the type of overlap pause involved So backchannels will be very brief PhD E: Because on your surface eh pause a bit of zone of overlapping with the duration eh overlapped and another very very short i probably it s very difficult to to because the the overlap is on is only the in the final `` S `` of the of the the fin the the end the end word of the pause previous speaker with the the next word of the the new speaker I considered pause that s an overlap but it s very short it s an `` X `` with a and the idea is probably eh pause when eh when eh we studied th th that zone eh pause pause eh we h we have eh eh pause confusion with eh eh noise With eh pause that fricative sounds but pause I have new information but I have to to study Professor D: but I I would you PhD G: You split this by minute pause so if an overlap straddles pause the boundary between two minutes that counts towards both of those minutes Postdoc F: Yes Mm Actually pause actually not so pause le let s think about the case where A starts speaking pause and then B overlaps with A pause and then the minute boundary happens And let s say that after that minute boundary pause B is still speaking pause and A overlaps pause with B that would be a new overlap But otherwise pause let s say B pause comes to the conclusion of of that turn without pause anyone overlapping with him or her in which case there would be no overlap counted in that second minute PhD G: No but suppose they both talk simultaneously pause both a a portion of it is in minute one and another portion of minute two Postdoc F: OK In that case pause my c pause the coding that I was using since we have not pause pause incorporated Adam s pause coding of overlap yets the coding of `` yets `` is not a word since we have not incorporated Adam s method of handling overl overlaps yet pause then pause that would have fallen through the cra cracks It would be an underestimate of the number of overlaps because pause I wou I would not be able to pick it up from the way it was pause encoded so far We just have not done th the precise second to sec you know pause second to second coding of when they occur Professor D: I I I m I m I m confused now So l l let me restate what I thought Andreas was saying and and see Let s say that in in second fifty seven pause of one minute pause you start talking and I start talking and pause we ignore each other and keep on talking for six seconds So we go over So we were we were talking over one another pause and it s just in each case it s just sort of one pause interval Right ? So pause we talked over the minute boundary Is this pause considered as one overlap in each of the minutes the way you have done this Postdoc F: No it would not It would be considered as an overlap in the first one Professor D: OK so that s pause good i I think in the sense that I think Andreas meant the question PhD B: That s pause that s good cuz the overall rate is Postdoc F: They are not double counted PhD G: Other otherwise you would get double counts here and there And then it would be harder Postdoc F: I should also say I did a simplifying pause count in that if A was speaking pause B overlapped with A and then A came back again and overlapped with B again I I did not count that as a three person overlap I counted that as a two person overlap pause and it was A being overlapped with by D Because the idea was the first speaker pause had the floor pause and the second person pause started speaking and then the f the first person reasserted the floor pause kind of thing These are simplifying assumptions did not happen very often there may be like three overlaps affected that way in the whole thing Grad H: I want to go back and listen to minute forty one Cuz i i I find it interesting that there were a large number of overlaps and they were all two speaker I mean what I thought what I would have thought in pause is that when there were a large number of overlaps it was because everyone was talking at once but apparently not Postdoc F: That s interesting That s interesting there s a lot of backchannel a lot o a lot of Grad H: This is pause really interesting data PhD B: I think what s really interesting though it is pause before d pause saying `` yes meetings have a lot of overlaps `` is to actually find out how many more pause we have than two party Postdoc F: I think so too I think PhD B: Cuz in two party conversations like Switchboard there s an awful lot too if you just look at backchannels if you consider those overlaps ? it s also ver it s huge It s just that people have not been pause looking at that because they ve been doing single channel processing for pause speech recognition So the question is you know how many more overlaps pause do you have pause of say the two person type by adding more people to a meeting and it may be a lot more but i it may pause it may not be Professor D: Well but see I find it interesting even if it was not any more because pause since we were dealing with this full duplex sort of thing in Switchboard where it was just all separated out we just everything was just nice so that so the issue is in in a situation pause where th that s PhD B: Well it s not really pause `` nice `` It depends what you are doing So if you were actually pause having depends what you are doing if Right now we are do we have individual mikes on the people in this meeting So the question is you know `` are there really more overlaps happening than there would be in a two person pause party `` And and there well may be but Professor D: Let let m let me rephrase what I m saying cuz I do not think I m getting it across What what I what I should not use words like `` nice `` because maybe that s too i too imprecise But what I mean is that in Switchboard pause despite the many many other problems that we have one problem that we are not considering is overlap And what we are doing now is pause aside from the many other differences in the task we are considering overlap and one of the reasons that we are considering it pause you know one of them not all of them one of them is that w at least pause you know I m very interested in the scenario in which pause both people talking are pretty much equally pause audible and from a single microphone And so pause in that case it does get mixed in and it s pretty hard to jus pause to just ignore it to just do processing on one and not on the other PhD B: I I agree that it s an issue here pause but it s also an issue for Switchboard and if you pause think of meetings pause being recorded over the telephone which I think you know this whole point of studying meetings is not just to have people in a room but to also have pause meetings over different phone lines Maybe far field mike people would not be interested in that but all the dialogue issues still apply so if each of us was calling and having pause a meeting that way pause you kn you know like a conference call And just the question is pause y you know in Switchboard pause you would think that s the simplest case of a meeting of more than one person and pause I m wondering how much more pause overlap pause of pause the types that that Jane described happen with more people present So it may be that having three people pause is very different from having two people or it may not be Professor D: That s an important question to ask I think what I m pause All I m s really saying is that I do not think we were considering that in Switchboard PhD B: Not you me But but but Grad H: Though it was not pause in the design Professor D: Were you were you were you were you measuring it ? I mean w w were PhD B: There there s actually to tell you the truth the reason why it s hard to measure is because of so from the point of view of studying dialogue I mean which pause Dan Jurafsky and Andreas and I had some projects on you want to know the sequence of turns So what happens is if you are talking and I have a backchannel in the middle of your turn and then you keep going what it looks like in a dialogue model is your turn and then my backchannel even though my backchannel occurred completely inside your turn So for things like language modeling or dialogue modeling pause it s We know that that s wrong in real time But because of the acoustic segmentations that were done and the fact that some of the acoustic data in Switchboard were missing people could not study it but that does not mean in the real world that people do not talk that way So it s Professor D: I was not saying that Right ? I was just saying that w now we are looking at it And and and you you maybe wanted to look at it before but for these various technical reasons in terms of how the data was you were not PhD B: Right We are looking at it here Professor D: So that s why it s coming to us as new even though it may well be pause you know if your if your hypothes The hypothesis you were offering eh Right ? if it s the null poth comment hypothesis and if actually you have as much overlap in a two person we do not know the answer to that The reason we do not know the answer to is cuz it was not studied and it was not studied because it was not set up Right ? PhD B: all I meant is that if you are asking the question from the point of view of pause what s different about a meeting studying meetings of say more than two people versus pause what kinds of questions you could ask with a two person pause meeting It s important to distinguish pause that you know this project pause is getting a lot of overlap pause but other projects were too but we just could not study them And and so Professor D: May have been May have been Right ? PhD B: Well there is a high rate Professor D: We do kn we do not know the numbers PhD B: So It s but I do not know how high in fact PhD A: Well here I have a question PhD B: that would be interesting to know Professor D: See I mean i i le let me t I mean my point was just if you wanted to say to somebody `` what have we learned about overlaps here ? `` just never mind comparison with something else what we ve learned about is overlaps in this situation is that the first pause the first order thing I would say is that there s a lot of them Right ? In in the sense that i if you said if i i i PhD B: I I do not di I agree with that Professor D: In a way I guess what I m comparing to is more the common sense notion of how how much people overlap pause you know the fact that when when when Adam was looking for a stretch of of speech before that did not have any overlaps and he w he was having such a hard time and now I look at this and I go `` well I can see why he was having such a hard time `` PhD B: Right That s also true of Switchboard Professor D: It s happening a lot I was not saying it was not PhD B: Right So it s just Professor D: Right ? I was commenting about this PhD B: OK All I m saying is that from the Professor D: I m saying if I pause I m saying if I have this complicated thing in front of me and we sh which pause you know we are going to get much more sophisticated about when we get lots more data But Then if I was going to describe to somebody what did you learn pause right here about you know the the modest amount of data that was analyzed I would say `` Well the first order thing was there was a lot of overlaps `` In fact and it s not just an overlap bunch of overlaps second order thing is it s not just a bunch of overlaps in one particular point but that there s overlaps throughout the thing PhD B: Right No I I agree with that Professor D: And that s interesting That s all PhD B: I m just pause saying that it may pause the reason you get overlaps may or may not be due to sort of the number of people in the meeting Professor D: I was not making any statement about that PhD B: And and it would actually be interesting to find out because some of the data say Switchboard which is not exactly the same kind of context I mean these are two people who do not know each other and so forth But we should still be able to somehow say what what is the added contra contribution to sort of overlap time of each additional person or something like that",PhD G explained how the data represents the number of overlaps regardless of the number of speakers. It is important to answer the question of whether overlaps are distributed evenly throughout or whether they are in bursts. Anonymizing the results and classifying overlaps by type may assist in standardizing cultural ways of conversing. PhD G proposed finding the average length of overlaps and the distribution of the duration of overlaps . "PhD B: Cuz in two party conversations like Switchboard there s an awful lot too if you just look at backchannels if you consider those overlaps ? it s also ver it s huge It s just that people have not been pause looking at that because they ve been doing single channel processing for pause speech recognition So the question is you know how many more overlaps pause do you have pause of say the two person type by adding more people to a meeting and it may be a lot more but i it may pause it may not be Professor D: Well but see I find it interesting even if it was not any more because pause since we were dealing with this full duplex sort of thing in Switchboard where it was just all separated out we just everything was just nice so that so the issue is in in a situation pause where th that s PhD B: Well it s not really pause `` nice `` It depends what you are doing So if you were actually pause having depends what you are doing if Right now we are do we have individual mikes on the people in this meeting So the question is you know `` are there really more overlaps happening than there would be in a two person pause party `` And and there well may be but Professor D: Let let m let me rephrase what I m saying cuz I do not think I m getting it across What what I what I should not use words like `` nice `` because maybe that s too i too imprecise But what I mean is that in Switchboard pause despite the many many other problems that we have one problem that we are not considering is overlap And what we are doing now is pause aside from the many other differences in the task we are considering overlap and one of the reasons that we are considering it pause you know one of them not all of them one of them is that w at least pause you know I m very interested in the scenario in which pause both people talking are pretty much equally pause audible and from a single microphone And so pause in that case it does get mixed in and it s pretty hard to jus pause to just ignore it to just do processing on one and not on the other PhD B: I I agree that it s an issue here pause but it s also an issue for Switchboard and if you pause think of meetings pause being recorded over the telephone which I think you know this whole point of studying meetings is not just to have people in a room but to also have pause meetings over different phone lines Maybe far field mike people would not be interested in that but all the dialogue issues still apply so if each of us was calling and having pause a meeting that way pause you kn you know like a conference call And just the question is pause y you know in Switchboard pause you would think that s the simplest case of a meeting of more than one person and pause I m wondering how much more pause overlap pause of pause the types that that Jane described happen with more people present So it may be that having three people pause is very different from having two people or it may not be Professor D: That s an important question to ask I think what I m pause All I m s really saying is that I do not think we were considering that in Switchboard PhD B: Not you me But but but Grad H: Though it was not pause in the design Professor D: Were you were you were you were you measuring it ? I mean w w were PhD B: There there s actually to tell you the truth the reason why it s hard to measure is because of so from the point of view of studying dialogue I mean which pause Dan Jurafsky and Andreas and I had some projects on you want to know the sequence of turns So what happens is if you are talking and I have a backchannel in the middle of your turn and then you keep going what it looks like in a dialogue model is your turn and then my backchannel even though my backchannel occurred completely inside your turn So for things like language modeling or dialogue modeling pause it s We know that that s wrong in real time But because of the acoustic segmentations that were done and the fact that some of the acoustic data in Switchboard were missing people could not study it but that does not mean in the real world that people do not talk that way So it s Professor D: I was not saying that Right ? I was just saying that w now we are looking at it And and and you you maybe wanted to look at it before but for these various technical reasons in terms of how the data was you were not PhD B: Right We are looking at it here Professor D: So that s why it s coming to us as new even though it may well be pause you know if your if your hypothes The hypothesis you were offering eh Right ? if it s the null poth comment hypothesis and if actually you have as much overlap in a two person we do not know the answer to that The reason we do not know the answer to is cuz it was not studied and it was not studied because it was not set up Right ? PhD B: all I meant is that if you are asking the question from the point of view of pause what s different about a meeting studying meetings of say more than two people versus pause what kinds of questions you could ask with a two person pause meeting It s important to distinguish pause that you know this project pause is getting a lot of overlap pause but other projects were too but we just could not study them And and so Professor D: May have been May have been Right ? PhD B: Well there is a high rate Professor D: We do kn we do not know the numbers PhD B: So It s but I do not know how high in fact PhD A: Well here I have a question PhD B: that would be interesting to know Professor D: See I mean i i le let me t I mean my point was just if you wanted to say to somebody `` what have we learned about overlaps here ? `` just never mind comparison with something else what we ve learned about is overlaps in this situation is that the first pause the first order thing I would say is that there s a lot of them Right ? In in the sense that i if you said if i i i PhD B: I I do not di I agree with that Professor D: In a way I guess what I m comparing to is more the common sense notion of how how much people overlap pause you know the fact that when when when Adam was looking for a stretch of of speech before that did not have any overlaps and he w he was having such a hard time and now I look at this and I go `` well I can see why he was having such a hard time `` PhD B: Right That s also true of Switchboard Professor D: It s happening a lot I was not saying it was not PhD B: Right So it s just Professor D: Right ? I was commenting about this PhD B: OK All I m saying is that from the Professor D: I m saying if I pause I m saying if I have this complicated thing in front of me and we sh which pause you know we are going to get much more sophisticated about when we get lots more data But Then if I was going to describe to somebody what did you learn pause right here about you know the the modest amount of data that was analyzed I would say `` Well the first order thing was there was a lot of overlaps `` In fact and it s not just an overlap bunch of overlaps second order thing is it s not just a bunch of overlaps in one particular point but that there s overlaps throughout the thing PhD B: Right No I I agree with that Professor D: And that s interesting That s all PhD B: I m just pause saying that it may pause the reason you get overlaps may or may not be due to sort of the number of people in the meeting Professor D: I was not making any statement about that PhD B: And and it would actually be interesting to find out because some of the data say Switchboard which is not exactly the same kind of context I mean these are two people who do not know each other and so forth But we should still be able to somehow say what what is the added contra contribution to sort of overlap time of each additional person or something like that Professor D: that would be good to know Grad H: I could certainly see it going either way Postdoc F: Wh I I agree I agree with Adam And the reason is because I think there s a limit pause there s an upper bound pause on how many you can have simply pause from the standpoint of audibility When we speak we we do make a judgment of pause `` can `` you know as adults I mean children do not adjust so well I mean if a truck goes rolling past adults will well depending but mostly adults will will pause will hold off to what pause to finish the end of the sentence till the till the noise is past And I think we generally do monitor things like that pause about whether we whether our utterance will be in the clear or not And partly it s related to rhythmic structure in conversation so you know you you t this is d also people tend to time their their their pause when they pause come into the conversation based on the overall rhythmic pause ambient thing So you do not want to be c cross cutting And and just to finish this that That I think that there may be an upper bound on how many overlaps you can have simply from the standpoint of audibility and how loud the other people are who are already pause in the fray But I you know of certain types Now if it s just backchannels people pause may be doing that pause with less pause intention of being heard pause just sort of spontaneously doing backchannels in which case pause that those might there may be no upper bound on those PhD G: I I have a feeling that backchannels which are the vast majority of overlaps in Switchboard pause do not play as big a role here because it s very unnatural I think to backchannel if in a multi audience you know in a multi person pause audience PhD B: If you can see them actually It s interesting so if you watch people are going like comment comment Right right like this here but That may not be the case if you could not see them PhD G: But pause but it s sort of odd if one person s speaking and everybody s listening and it s unusual to have everybody going `` huh huh `` Professor D: Actually I think I ve done it pause a fair number of times today PhD B: There s a lot of head nodding in this Grad H: Yep we need to put trackers on it PhD A: In in the two person PhD G: Plus plus plus the So so actually That s in part because the nodding if you have visual contact pause the nodding has the same function but on the phone in Switchboard you you that would not work So so you need to use the backchannel Grad H: you do not have it Your mike is PhD A: So in the two person conversations pause when there s backchannel is there a great deal of pause overlap pause in the speech ? Grad H: That is an earphone so if you just put it pause so it s on your ear PhD A: or Cuz my impression is sometimes it happens when there s a pause you know like you you get a lot of backchannel when somebody s pausing PhD B: Sorry what were you saying ? PhD A: It s hard to do both huh ? pause no when when when there s backchannel I mean just I was just listening and and when there s two people talking and there s backchannel it seems like pause the backchannel happens when you know the pitch drops and the first person and a lot of times the first person actually stops talking and then there s a backchannel pause and then they start up again and so I m wondering about h I just wonder how much overlap there is Is there a lot ? PhD B: I think there s a lot of the kind that Jose was talking about where pause I mean this is called `` precision timing `` in pause conversation analysis where pause they come in overlapping pause but at a point where the pause information is mostly pause complete So all you are missing is some last syllables or something or the last word or some highly predictable words So technically it s an overlap PhD A: But maybe a just a small overlap ? PhD B: But pause you know from information flow point of view it s not an overlap in pause the predictable information Grad H: It would be interesting if we could do prediction PhD A: I was just thinking more in terms of alignment alignment overlap Grad H: Language model prediction of overlap that would be really interesting PhD B: Well that s exactly exactly why we wanted to study the precise timing of overlaps ins in Switchboard say because there s a lot of that PhD G: So so here s a here s a first interesting pause labeling task to distinguish between say backchannels pause precision timing Sort of you know benevolent overlaps and and pause and w and and sort of pause I do not know hostile overlaps where someone is trying to grab the floor from someone else Grad H: Mm Let s pick a different word PhD G: that that might be an interesting pause problem to look at Postdoc F: Well I mean you could do that I ju I I think that pause in this meeting I really had the feeling that was not happening that pause the hostile hostile type These were these were pause benevolent types as people pause finishing each other s sentences and pause stuff PhD G: I could imagine that as there s a fair number of cases where and this is sort of not pause really hostile but sort of competitive where one person is finishing something and you have like two or three people jumping trying to pause trying to pause trying to grab the next turn Grad H: Trying to get the floor PhD G: And so it s not against the person who talks first pause because actually we are all waiting for that person to finish But they all want to pause be next Professor D: I have a feeling most of these things are that pause that are not pause a benevolent kind are are pause are pause pause are are competitive as opposed to real really really hostile PhD A: I wonder what determines who gets the floor ? Postdoc F: Well there are various things you you have the Professor D: a vote vote in Florida Grad H: It s been studied a lot Professor D: o one thing I I wanted to or you can tell a good joke and then everybody s laughing and you get a chance to g break in But But You know the other thing I was thinking was that pause pause these all these interesting questions are of course pretty hard to answer with you pause you know a small amount of data So pause I wonder if what you are saying suggests that we should make a conscious attempt to have a a fair number of meetings with a smaller number of people Right ? I mean we most of our meetings are pause meetings currently with say five six seven eight people Should we pause really try to have some two person meetings pause or some three person meetings and re record them just to to to beef up the the statistics on that ? Postdoc F: That s a control Well it seems like there are two possibilities there I mean pause i it seems like if you have just pause two people it s not pause really y like a meeting w is not as similar as the rest of the pause of the sample It depends on what you are after of course but It seems like that would be more a case of the control condition compared to pause an experimental pause condition with more than two Professor D: Well Liz was raising the question of of whether i it s the number there s a relationship between the number of people and the number of overlaps or type of overlaps there and If you had two people meeting in this kind of circumstance then you would still have the visuals You would not have that difference pause also that you have in the say in Switchboard data","Professor D said Switchboard does not allow for accurate recording of backchannels, especially with a smaller audience. Backchannels , which are the vast majority of overlaps in Switchboard don't play as big a role online, because it 's unnatural to backchannel with a multi- person audience." "Professor D: o one thing I I wanted to or you can tell a good joke and then everybody s laughing and you get a chance to g break in But But You know the other thing I was thinking was that pause pause these all these interesting questions are of course pretty hard to answer with you pause you know a small amount of data So pause I wonder if what you are saying suggests that we should make a conscious attempt to have a a fair number of meetings with a smaller number of people Right ? I mean we most of our meetings are pause meetings currently with say five six seven eight people Should we pause really try to have some two person meetings pause or some three person meetings and re record them just to to to beef up the the statistics on that ? Postdoc F: That s a control Well it seems like there are two possibilities there I mean pause i it seems like if you have just pause two people it s not pause really y like a meeting w is not as similar as the rest of the pause of the sample It depends on what you are after of course but It seems like that would be more a case of the control condition compared to pause an experimental pause condition with more than two Professor D: Well Liz was raising the question of of whether i it s the number there s a relationship between the number of people and the number of overlaps or type of overlaps there and If you had two people meeting in this kind of circumstance then you would still have the visuals You would not have that difference pause also that you have in the say in Switchboard data Postdoc F: Mm I m just thinking that would be more like a c control condition Grad H: Well but from the acoustic point of view it s all good PhD G: If if the goal were to just look at overlap you would you could serve yourself save yourself a lot of time but not even transcri transcribe the words PhD B: Well I was thinking you should be able to do this from the pause acoustics on the close talking mikes Grad H: Well that s the that was my my status report Postdoc F: You ve been working on that PhD B: Right I mean Adam was Grad H: so pause Once we are done with this stuff discussing PhD B: right I mean not as well as what I mean you would not be able to have any kind of typology obviously but you would get some rough statistics Professor D: But what what do you think about that ? Do you think that would be useful ? I m just thinking that as an action item of whether we should try to record some two person meetings or something PhD B: I guess my my first comment was pause only that we should n not attribute overlaps only to meetings but maybe that s obvious maybe everybody knew that but that in normal conversation with two people there s an awful lot of the same kinds of overlap and that it would be interesting to look at pause whether there are these kinds of constraints that Jane mentioned that what maybe the additional people add to this competition that happens right after a turn you know because now you can have five people trying to grab the turn but pretty quickly there are they back off and you go back to this sort of only one person at a time with one person interrupting at a time So I do not know To answer your question I pause it I do not think it s crucial to have controls but I think it s worth recording all the meetings we pause can PhD G: I I have an idea PhD B: D I would not not record a two person meeting just because it only has two people PhD G: Could we Could we we have have in the past and I think continue will continue to have a fair number of pause phone conference calls And pause and as a to as another c pause c comparison pause condition pause we could see what what what happens in terms of overlap when you do not have visual contact Grad H: we talked about this repeatedly PhD B: Can we actually record ? Grad H: It just seems like that s a very different pause thing than what we are doing Professor D: Well we will have to set up for it PhD B: I mean pause physically pause can we record the o the other Professor D: Well we are not really set up for it pause to do that But PhD G: Or this is getting a little extravagant we could put up some kind of blinds or something to pause to remove pause visual contact PhD B: That s what they did on Map Task you know this Map Task corpus ? They ran exactly the same pairs of people with and without visual cues and it s quite interesting Professor D: Well we we record this meeting so regularly it would not be that I mean pause a little strange Grad H: OK we can record but no one can look at each other PhD B: Well we could just put pause b blindfolds on PhD G: Well y no you f PhD B: and we would take a picture of everybody sitting here with blindfolds That would Professor D: Oh th that was the other thing were not we going to take a picture pause at the beginning of each of these meetings ? Grad H: what I had thought we were going to do is just take pictures of the whiteboards rather than take pictures of the meeting Postdoc F: Linguistic anthropologists would would suggest it would be useful to also take a picture of the meeting Professor D: There s a head nodding here vigorously PhD A: Why why do we want to have a picture of the meeting ? PhD B: Ee pause you mean transc pause no Postdoc F: The because you get then the spatial relationship of the speakers And that pause could be PhD G: Well you could do that by just noting on the enrollment sheet the pause the seat number Grad H: Seat number that s a good idea I will do that I will do that on the next set of forms PhD G: So you would number them somehow PhD E: Is possible to get information from the rhythmic f from the ge eh pause files Grad H: I finally remembered to put put native language on the newer forms PhD A: We can can not you figure it out from the mike number ? Grad H: The wireless ones And even the jacks I mean I m sitting here and the jack is pause over pause in front of you PhD B: But probably from these you could ve comment infer it PhD G: but It s it would be trivial Grad H: It would be another task PhD B: It would be a research task Grad H: Having having ground tu truth would be nice so pause seat number would be good PhD A: You know where you could get it ? Beam forming during the digit pause stuff Grad H: So I m going to put little labels on all the chairs with the seat number That s a good idea PhD B: But you have to keep the chairs in the same pla like here PhD G: Not the chairs The chairs are Chairs are movable Put them pause Like pause put them on the table where they Postdoc F: But you know they the s the linguistic anthropologists would say it would be good to have a digital picture anyway because you get pause a sense also of posture Posture and we could like pause you know pause block out the person s face or whatever but but you know these are important cues PhD A: How big their heads are Postdoc F: I mean the the how a person is sitting pause is Professor D: But if you just f But from one picture I do not know that you really get that PhD G: Andreas was wearing that same old sweater again Professor D: Right ? You would want a video for that I think Postdoc F: It would be better than nothing is is i Just from a single picture I think you can tell some aspects I mean I I could tell you I mean if I if I m in certain meetings I notice that there are certain people who really do eh The body language is very is very interesting in terms of the dominance aspect PhD G: And and Morgan had that funny hair again Postdoc F: comment Well I mean you black out the that part But it s just you know the the body Grad H: Of course the where we sit at the table I find is very interesting that we do tend to pause cong pause to gravitate to the same place each time and it s somewhat coincidental I m sitting here so that I can run into the room if the hardware starts you know catching fire or something PhD G: Oh no you you just like to be in charge that s why you are sitting Grad H: I just want to be at the head of the table Professor D: Speaking of taking control you said you had some research to talk about","Postdoc F said or a control experiment, having a number of meetings with a smaller group of people may be useful. Since most of the meetings currently have between five and eight people, the control would have three person meetings." "Grad H: I ve been playing with using the close talking mike to do to try to figure out who s speaking So my first attempt was just using thresholding and filtering that we talked about about two weeks ago and so I played with that a little bit and it works O K pause except that pause it s very sensitive to your choice of your filter width and your threshold So if you fiddle around with it a little bit and you get good numbers you can actually do a pretty good job of segmenting when someone s talking and when they are not But if you try to use the same paramenters on another speaker it does not work anymore even if you normalize it based on the absolute loudness PhD B: But does it work for that one speaker throughout the whole meeting ? Grad H: It does work for the one speaker throughout the whole meeting Pretty well PhD A: How did you do it Adam ? Grad H: Pretty well How did I do it ? What do you mean ? PhD A: I mean wh what was the Grad H: The algorithm was take o every frame that s over the threshold and then median filter it and then look for runs So there was a minimum run length PhD A: Every frame that s over what threshold ? Grad H: so that A threshold that you pick PhD A: In terms of energy ? Ah ! Postdoc F: Say that again ? Frame over fres threshold Grad H: So you take a each frame and you compute the energy and if it s over the threshold you set it to one and if it s under the threshold you set it to zero so now you have a bit stream pause of zeros and ones And then I median filtered that using pause a fairly long pause filter length pause well actually I guess depends on what you mean by long you know tenth of a second sorts of numbers and that s to average out you know pitch you know the pitch contours and things like that And then looked for long runs And that works O K if you fil if you tune the filter parameters if you tune how long your median filter is and how high you are looking for your thresholds PhD A: Did you ever try running the filter before you pick a threshold ? Grad H: No I certainly could though But this was just I had the program mostly written already so it was easy to do OK and then the other thing I did was I took Javier s speaker change detector acoustic change detector and I implemented that with the close talking mikes and pause unfortunately that s not working real well and it looks like it s the problem is he does it in two passes the first pass is to find candidate places to do a break And he does that using a neural net doing broad phone classification and he has the the pause one of the phone classes is silence And so the possible breaks are where silence starts and ends And then he has a second pass which is a modeling a Gaussian mixture model looking for whether it improves or or degrades to split at one of those particular places And what looks like it s happening is that the even on the close talking mike the broad phone class classifier s doing a really bad job PhD A: Who was it trained on ? Grad H: I do not remember Does an do you remember Morgan was it Broadcast News ? pause So at any rate my next attempt pause which I m in the midst of and have not quite finished yet was actually using the thresholding as the way of generating the candidates Because one of the things that definitely happens is if you put the threshold low you get lots of breaks All of which are definitely acoustic events They are definitely someone talking But like it could be someone who is not the person here but the person over there or it can be the person breathing And then feeding that into the acoustic change detector And so I think that might work But I have not gotten very far on that But all of this is close talking mike so it s pause just just trying to get some ground truth PhD E: Only with eh but eh I I I think eh when when y I I saw the the the the speech from PDA and eh pause close pause talker I I think the there is a a great difference in the in the signal but eh I but eh I I I mean that eh eh pause in the in the mixed file you can find pause zone with eh pause great different eh pause level of energy Grad H: So pause s my intention for this is is as an aide for ground truth not PhD E: I I think for eh pause algorithm based on energy pause eh that h mmm more or less eh like eh pause eh mmm first sound energy detector eh nnn When y you the detect the the the first at at the end of of the detector of ehm princ What is the the name in English ? the the mmm pause the de detector of ehm of a word in the in the s in an isolated word in in the background That Grad H: I m I m not sure what you are saying can you try PhD E: I mean that when when you use eh pause eh pause any PhD A: I think he s saying the onset detector PhD E: I I think it s probably to work well eh because eh pause you have eh in the mixed files a great level of energy eh pause and great difference between the sp speaker And probably is not so easy when you use the the PDA eh that Because the signal is eh pause the in the e energy level in in that eh pause eh pause speech file is eh pause more similar between the different eh speaker pause I I think is eh it will pause i is my opinion It will be eh pause more difficult to to detect bass tone energy the the change I think that Grad H: Ah in the clo in the P D A you mean ? no question It will be much harder PhD E: And the the another question that when I review the the the work of Javier I think the nnn the nnn pause that the idea of using a pause neural network to to get a broad class of phonetic eh pause from eh a candidate from the the the speech signal If you have eh I m considering only because Javier eh pause only consider eh pause like candidate the nnn eh pause the silence because it is the the only model eh eh he used that eh pause eh pause nnn to detect the the possibility of a a change between the between the speaker pause another another research thing different groups eh pause working eh pause on Broadcast News prefer to eh pause to consider hypothesis eh pause between each phoneme Grad H: Mm when a pause phone changes PhD E: Because I I I think it s more realistic that pause only consider the the the the silence between the speaker Eh pause there there exists eh pause silence between between eh pause a speaker is is eh pause eh pause acoustic eh pause event important to to consider I I found that the eh pause silence in in many occasions in the in the speech file but eh pause when you have eh pause eh two speakers together without enough silence between between them eh pause I think eh pause is better to use the acoustic change detector basically and I I I IX or mmm BIC criterion for consider all the frames in my opinion Professor D: Mm the you know the reason that he pause just used silence was not because he thought it was better it was it was it was the place he was starting So he was trying to get something going and e e you know as as as is in your case if you are here for only a modest number of months you try to pick a realistic goal But his his goal was always to proceed from there to then allow broad category change also PhD E: huh But eh pause do do you think that if you consider all the frames to apply the the eh pause the BIC criterion to detect the the the different acoustic change eh pause between speaker without pause with pause silence or with overlapping I think like like eh pause eh a general eh pause eh pause way of process the the acoustic change In a first step I mean An and then eh pause eh pause without considering the you you you pause you can consider the energy like a another parameter in the in the feature vector eh This this is the idea And if if you do that eh pause eh with a BIC criterion for example or with another kind of eh pause of distance in a first step and then you eh pause you get the eh pause the hypothesis to the this change acoustic eh pause to po process Because eh pause eh probably you you can find the the eh pause a small of silence between speaker with eh pause eh pause a ga mmm pause small duration Less than eh pause two hundred milliseconds for example and apply another another algorithm another approach like eh pause eh pause detector of ene eh detector of bass tone energy to to consider that eh that eh pause zone of s a small silence between speaker or another algorithm to to process eh pause the the segment between marks eh pause founded by the the the BIC criterion and applied for for each frame I think is eh pause nnn it will be a an an a more general approach the pause if we compare with use eh pause a neural net or another eh pause speech recognizer with a broad class or or narrow class because in my opinion eh pause it s in my opinion eh if you if you change the condition of the speech I mean if you adjust to your algorithm with a mixed speech file and to eh to eh pause adapt the neural net eh pause used by Javier with a mixed file With a m mixed file Grad H: With the what file ? PhD E: with a the mix mix Sorry And pause and then you you eh you try to to apply that eh eh eh speech recognizer to that signal to the PDA eh pause speech file I I think you will have problems because the the the the pause condition you you will need t t I I suppose that you will need to to to retrain it Grad H: Oh absolutely This is this is not what I was suggesting to do Professor D: you Look I I think this is a One once It s a I used to work like on voiced on voice silence detection you know and this is this pause kind of thing pause If you have somebody who has some experience with this sort of thing and they work on it for a couple months they can come up with something that gets most of the cases fairly easily Then you say `` OK I do not just want to get most of the cases I want it to be really accurate `` Then it gets really hard no matter what you do So the p the problem is is that if you say `` Well I I have these other data over here that I learn things from either explicit training of neural nets or of Gaussian mixture models or whatever `` pause Suppose you do not use any of those things You say you have looked for acoustic change Well what does that mean ? That that means you set some thresholds somewhere or something right ? and and so where do you get your thresholds from ? From something that you looked at So you always have this problem you are going to new data pause H how are you going to adapt whatever you can very quickly learn about the new data ? if it s going to be different from old data that you have ? And I think that s a problem pause with this Grad H: Well also what I m doing right now is not intended to be an acoustic change detector for far field mikes What I m doing is trying to use the close talking mike and just use pause Can and just generate candidate and just pause try to get a first pass at something that sort of works and I have not spent a lot of time on it and I m not intending to spend a lot of time on it PhD G: OK I I unfortunately have to run but pause I can imagine pause building pause a pause pause model of speaker change pause detection pause that takes into account pause both the far field and the pause actually not just the close talking mike for that speaker but actually for all of th pause for all of the speakers pause If you model the pause the pause effect that pause me speaking has on pause your pause microphone and everybody else s microphone as well as on that and you build basically I think you would you would pause build a an HMM that has as a state space all of the possible speaker combinations Grad H: It s a little big PhD G: It s not that big actually Grad H: Two to the N Two to the number of people in the meeting Professor D: But Actually Andreas may maybe maybe just something simpler but but along the lines of what you are saying I was just realizing I used to know this guy who used to build mike mixers automatic mike mixers where you know t in order to able to turn up the gain you know as much as you can you you you lower the gain on on the mikes of people who are not talking right ? And then he had some sort of reasonable way of doing that but what if you were just looking at very simple measures like energy measures but you do not just compare it to some threshold pause overall but you compare it to the energy in the other microphones Grad H: I was thinking about doing that originally to find out pause who s the loudest and that person is certainly talking But I also wanted to find threshold excuse me mol overlap So not just just the loudest PhD E: I I Sorry I I have found that when when I I analyzed the the speech files from the pause eh pause mike eh pause from the eh close eh pause microphone eh pause I found zones with a a different level of energy PhD G: Sorry I have to go Grad H: OK Could you fill that out anyway ? Just pause put your name in Are y you want me to do it ? I will do it PhD A: But he s not going to even read that Oh PhD E: including overlap zone including because eh pause eh pause depend on the position of the of the microph of the each speaker to eh to get more o or less energy i in the mixed sign in the signal and then if you consider energy to to detect overlapping in in and you process the the in the the the speech file from the the the mixed signals The mixed signals eh I I think it s it s difficult pause only to en with energy to to consider that in that zone We have eh eh overlapping zone Eh if you process only the the energy of the of each frame Professor D: Well it s probably harder but I I think what I was s nnn noting just when he when Andreas raised that was that there s other information to be gained from looking at all of the microphones and you may not need to look at very sophisticated things because if there s if most of the overlaps you know this does not cover say three but if most of the overlaps say are two if the distribution looks like there s a couple high ones and and pause the rest of them are low Grad H: And everyone else is low Professor D: you know what I mean there s some information there about their distribution even with very simple measures by the way I had an idea with while I was watching Chuck nodding at a lot of these things is that we can all wear little bells on our heads so that then you would know that Postdoc F: `` Ding `` That s cute ! PhD B: I think that would be really interesting too with blindfolds Then The question is pause like pause whether Grad H: `` what are you nodding about ? `` PhD B: Well trying with and pause with and without Grad H: `` Sorry I m just I m just going to sleep `` PhD B: But then there s just one like PhD A: Actually I saw a a woman at the bus stop the other day who was talking on her cell phone speaking Japanese and was bowing you know profusely PhD B: Oh that s really common It s very difficult if you try while you are trying say to convince somebody on the phone it s difficult not to move your hands Not You know if you watch people they will actually do these things So I still think we should try a a meeting or two with the blindfolds at least of this meeting that we have lots of recordings of maybe for part of the meeting we do not have to do it the whole meeting Professor D: I think th I think it s a great idea PhD B: That could be fun It will be too hard to make barriers I was thinking because they have to go all the way you know I can see Chuck even if you put a barrier here Grad H: Well we could just turn out the lights Postdoc F: Actually pause well also I I can say I made barr barriers for so that the pause stuff I was doing with Collin wha pause which pause just used pause this pause kind of foam board R really inexpensive You can you can masking tape it together these are pause you know pretty l large partitions PhD B: But then we also have these mikes is the other thing I was thinking so we need a barrier that does not disturb pause the sound Postdoc F: It s true it would disturb the pause the the long range","Grad H has been experimenting with using the close - talking mike to decipher who is speaking . The first attempt was thresholding and filtering , which is very sensitive to the choice of filter width and threshold . It does allow for effective segmenting when someone 's talking and when they are not ." "PhD G: Right I hope they accept it I mean I both actu as as a submission and you know as a paper but Grad A: Well you sent it in pause late Professor F: I guess you first you have to do the first one PhD G: We actually exceeded the delayed deadline by o another day so Professor F: Oh they they had some extension that they announced or something ? PhD G: Well Liz had sent them a note saying `` could we please pause have another `` comment pause I do not know `` three days `` or something and they said yes PhD D: And then she said `` Did I say three ?",There is a slight worry about the acceptance of the paper submitted to Eurospeech as the deadline was exceeded. "Postdoc C: that s a good point PhD G: Well we did not get to look at that but this obvious thing to see if if there s a dependence on the number of participants Grad A: I mean I bet there s a weak dependence I m sure it s it s not a real strong one You have a lot of a lot of two party subsets within the meeting","As to the content of the paper, the overlap statistics have not been normalised against the number of participants in the conversation, although the dependency is probably going to be a weak one. Additionally, the correlation between pauses in speech and interruptions does not provide a cause-and-effect link for these phenomena. " "Professor F: but other than that delightful result what was the rest of the paper about ? PhD G: well it was about it had three sections Professor F: You sent it to me but I have not seen it yet PhD G: three kinds of results if you will the one was that the just the the amount of overlap Grad A: The good the bad and the ugly PhD G: s in terms of in terms of number of words and also we computed something called a `` spurt `` which is essentially a stretch of speech with no pauses exceeding five hundred milliseconds and we computed how many overlapped i spurts there were and how many overlapped words there were for four different pause corpora the Meeting Recorder meetings the Robustness meetings Switchboard and CallHome and found and sort of compared the numbers and found that the you know as you might expect the Meeting Recorder pause meetings had the most overlap but next were Switchboard and CallHome which both had roughly the same almost identical in fact and the Robustness meetings were had the least so One sort of unexpected result there is that two party telephone conversations have about the same amount of overlap sort of in gen you know order of magnitude wise as as face to face meetings with multiple","The statistics in the paper are based on the transcripts of two meetings and two telephone conversation corpora. In the first two, the overlapped words vary between 9% and 18%. The telephone conversation results were in-between and very similar to each other." "Postdoc C: that s that s right but you know thi this brings me to the other f stage of this which I discussed with you earlier today which is the second stage is w what to do pause in terms of the transcribers adjustment of these data I discussed this with you too the tr so the idea initially was we would get for the new meetings so the e EDU meetings that Thilo ha has now presegmented all of them for us on a channel by channel basis And so I ve assigned I ve I ve assigned them to our transcribers and so far I ve discussed it with one with And I had a pause about an hour discussion with her about this yesterday we went through EDU one at some extent And it occurred to me that that basically what we have in this kind of a format is you could consider it as a staggered mixed file we had some discussion over the weekend a about at at this other meeting that we were all a at about whether the tran the IBM transcribers should hear a single channel audio or a mixed channel audio And in in a way by by having this this chunk and then the backchannel after it it s like a stagal staggered mixed channel And it occurred pause to me in my discussion with her yesterday that the pause the the maximal gain it s from the IBM pause people may be in long stretches of connected speech So it s basically a whole bunch of words which they can really do because of the continuity within that person s turn So what I m thinking and it may be that not all meetings will be good for this comment but but what I m thinking is that in the EDU meetings they tend to be driven by a couple of dominant speakers And if the chunked files focused on the dominant speakers then when when it got s patched together when it comes back from IBM we can add the backchannels It seems to me that you know the backchannels per se would not be so hard but then there s this question of the time pause comment marking and whether the beeps would be y y y And I m not exactly sure how that how that would work with the with the backchannels And so And certainly things that are intrusions of multiple words taken out of context and displaced in time from where they occurred that would be hard So m my thought is pause i I m having this transcriber go through the EDU one meeting and indicate a start time nonvocalsound f for each dominant speaker endpoi end time for each dominant speaker and the idea that these units would be generated for the dominant speakers and maybe not for the other channels Grad A: the only disadvantage of that is then it s hard to use an automatic method to do that The advantage is that it s probably faster to do that than it is to use the automated method and correct it So We will just have to see Postdoc C: OK I think I I think you know the original plan was that the transcriber would adjust the t the boundaries and all that for all the channels but you know that is so time consuming and since we have a bottleneck here we want to get IBM things that are usable s as soon as possible then this seemed to me it would be a way of gett to get them a flood of data which would be useful when it comes back to us And","Before that, the files will be automatically pre-segmented into speech/non-speech bins and the beeps will be inserted. " "Professor F: but you know how many how many per minute or You know PhD B: the the problem is that nnn the numbers Ian gave in the paper is just some frame error rate So that s that s not really What will be effective for for the transcribers is They have to in in they have to insure that that s a real s spurt or something And but the numbers Oops Let me think So the pause speech the amount of speech that is missed by the pause detector for a good meeting I th is around pause or under one percent I would say But there can be For but there can be more There s There s more amount speech more amount of well the detector says there is speech but there is none So that that can be a lot when when it s really a breathy channel Professor F: But I think that s less of a problem They will just listen It s just wasted time And th and that s for a good meeting Now what about in a meeting that you said we ve you ve had some more trouble with ? PhD B: I can not comment really hhh comment pause Tsk comment I pause do not have really representative numbers I think That s really I I did pause this on on four meetings and only five minutes of of every meet of of these meetings so it s not not that representative but it s perhaps Fff it s perhaps then it s perhaps five percent of something which s the the frames speech frames which are which are missed but I can not can not really tell Professor F: Right So I So i Sometime we might want to go back and look at it more in terms of how many times is there a spurt that s that s interrupted ? Postdoc C: The other problem is that when it when it d i on the breathy ones where you get breathing inti indicated as speech","In order to make things easier for the transcribers, breathy channels, which are erroneously marked as speech, will be re-classified correctly with other methods." "Professor F: What s the problem the l I forget Is the problem the lapel or or PhD B: it really depends my my my impression is that it s better for meetings with fewer speakers and it s better for for meetings where nobody is breathing PhD D: So in fact this might suggest an alternative sort of a a c a hybrid between these two things So the the one suggestion is you know we we run Thilo s thing and then we have somebody go and adjust all the time boundaries and we send it to IBM The other one is we just run his thing and send it to IBM","The preparation of files for transcription by IBM is facing some minor difficulties, as some features (hand-coded time boundaries, multiplicity of channels etc) may complicate the generation of beep files." "John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way Dr David Blaney: Thank you But even in terms of your assessment of whether this is going to be a good thing or a bad thing a good impact or a bad impact some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it so we will be as careful as we can be on that In terms of the impact of Brexit on higher education clearly the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales So we fund provision we do not fund providers technically although obviously there is not much provision without providers So we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers but fundamentally the issue is : what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales and what impact might Brexit have on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales ? So we know that universities make annually about £5 billion of impact 50000 jobs Of course in Wales all of that economic impact is really very significant and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment That has an impact in a number of ways We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU so EU students structural funds and EU research funding and so on from the EU We can identify some of that but actually what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I will ask Bethan to share some details on that in a moment We are also beginning to pick up only anecdotally some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector and the Welsh sector as part of that in playing in some of the EU collaborative research activities And that I think just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period We do not have data on that—that is anecdotal—but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult In terms of the financial impact of that clearly if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then presumably some of the money—we are almost immediately straight into politics if you are not careful—but some of the money will be available back to the UK and the extent to which Wales benefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majestys Government It is not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in that relationship but that will become a matter of politics There is a broader dimension which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that I think it is very hard for us to be definitive about how that is going to play out I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how that plays for institutions remains to be seen We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it So in terms of recruitment Bethan Bethan Owen: This is based on the UCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June 30 June The European Uniondomiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for English institutions and nonEU—so international students not from Europe—have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England So those are the signs of changes","First, the economic impact of Brexit is shown in a number of ways, like the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU. We can also see some changes in students' applications and in increasing difficulties of the EU collaborative research activities. In terms of the financial impact, if it is accepted that the UK is a net contributor to the EU then, presumably, some of Wales' money will go straight into politics, and the benefits are unknown, which will become a matter of politics. In terms of recruitment, both European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales and non-EU international students decreased, who applied to Welsh institutions. While the number for both groups of students who apply to English universities increased." "John Griffiths AM: Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment ? Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure The recommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effect from this September However the recommendations for reestablishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer That funding when it returns to institutions is intended to reestablish funding for higher cost provision both full time and part time reinstate funding for innovation and maintain at the very least the research funding in real terms Universities in the meantime are trying to minimise the cost reductions that they are making in order to maintain the infrastructure so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it We have announced our funding allocations for 201819 For the research and teaching grant though we are still funding at a lower level—£125 million less—then the starting point for the Diamond report the 201516 starting report But we expect to be able to start introducing funding from 201920 to make a start on implementing Diamond And it is probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition to those that the Diamond report was addressing The other pressures relate to student recruitment I mentioned the EU and international students There is also the start of a reduction both in Welshdomiciled and Englishdomiciled applications to Wales Enrolments are obviously the key important number which we will see later And the other pressures include pay and pension costs not least the issues around the universities superannuation scheme pension fund where there is potentially a significant increase in cost Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure and borrowing which bring their own pressures And finally the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding—the Augar review John Griffiths AM: In terms of European Union students and enrolment is Wales forecast to do less well than England and if so why might that be ? Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it It is very difficult until the enrolments are made and it is also very hard to see—the data that we see is the UCAS data Institutions also recruit directly so until we see the actual recruitment— I think the arrangements that have changed from 201819 also impact on EU students So now they have to find the full fee whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students So I am speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students appetite to come John Griffiths AM: First of all Llyr then Mark","The funding position would be the main pressure. The recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. Wales institutions are still funding at a lower level. Then, as for enrollments, there is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled and English-domiciled applications to Wales. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding—the Augar review." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well that is straight into what I was going to ask really about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 per cent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales where we see a 2 per cent increase in England Is that it or are there other things that you have taken into account ? What is your assessment of the reasons behind this ? Dr David Blaney: It is very difficult to be definitive about the reasons but I think there are probably two The one that Bethan has already indicated which is the change in student support arrangements for EU students will have an effect of perturbation That is probably relatively temporary—let us hope it is—as that settles down because actually the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming into England Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on So getting the messages out is a challenge The other dimension is that when you are in a highly competitive recruitment market you have to do what you can to look attractive Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities and particularly buildings and kit and the relative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that Certainly anecdotally I know from my own family that a lot of the choices have been made in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on There is something rational about that is not there ? If you have got a system that is relatively better invested then you are likely to have a better student experience because the resources are likely to be better So that is not irrational We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the £9000 fee maximum limit came in and some institutions mostly in England—there was one in Wales—chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low relative to that £9000 and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind So the price sensitivities work quite differently So again if you have got a relatively better invested part of the system then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latter factor would affect the whole of the cohort not just the international recruitment of course Dr David Blaney: Indeed Yes indeed The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that is rebalancing where the policy of investment goes","He thinks there may be two reasons. The first one is about the change in student support arrangements for EU students, which will have an effect of perturbation. Wales' institutions' fee level is slightly lower, but they do struggle in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. The other dimension is about the attractiveness of the higher institutions in a highly competitive recruitment market. Wales universities don't have enough investment in facilities, and particularly buildings and kits." "Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales ? Dr David Blaney: One of them in particular is relative safety We know that one of the considerations particularly for parents of overseas students is are they going to go to a safe environment and we know that the perception of international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be That is partly a function of the size of our larger cities—quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England So that is a key message Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well So we have got a UKquality system a UK degree and the strength of that brand is available in Wales but it is available in a way that is safer and more supportive I think is the messaging that is coming through John Griffiths AM: We would better move on I think had not we ? Darren then","One of the reasons is relative safety, Wales is a comfortable and safe place to be. Then, being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. Students enjoy a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, and they can be safer and more supportive in Wales." "Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask in terms of the impact of Brexit have you done any assessment of what you think might happen or have any of the institutions made available to you any assessments of what they think is likely to happen to their individual institutions going forward ? You have mentioned scenarios earlier on David so what scenarios have you set out ? Dr David Blaney: There is a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group which is chaired by one of the Government directors and we sit on that And we have provided that group with early summaries of the risks and the potential impact in terms of the exposure of the sector to EUsourced funding We have as part of that working group explored those issues that it would be really very helpful for either the Welsh Government to try to put in place or for the Welsh Government to persuade UK Government to do And I think in our submission we identified a number of areas of what we would consider to be a helpful action and that has been worked through that working group We know that it has informed Welsh Governments position in terms of what it does and also in terms of the conversations that they have with Her Majestys Government Beyond that what we have not done in that working group is share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios We are not able to do that here either because inevitably they would have varying degrees of unpalatability and they would have to be managed very very carefully You take cost out which is essentially the response you actually take peoples jobs out and all of that has to be managed carefully So that is not really a matter for public consideration but we do know that the institutions are looking at a range of scenarios on what they would do Bethan mentioned earlier on that the current deficit for the sector is a managed deficit—it is not something that has taken them by surprise They are responding to what they see as the dip between where Diamond was reporting and where the money starts flowing Similarly I think we are comfortable that there is a managed approach to the scenarios that they are testing within institutions So they will do what they need to do to sustain themselves The bigger issue really in a public policy context is the potential damage for the sector to be able to deliver for Wales in terms of research and skills development and all the other contributions Darren Millar AM: So you are confident that they are taking a robust approach to planning for various scenarios going forward are you as individual HEIs ? Dr David Blaney: Yes and as the deal becomes more clear politically then they will obviously have greater clarity in terms of which of these scenarios they need to work up more fully but they are sighted on it Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask about fee and access plans and how Brexit might impact them ? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted ? Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there Fee and access plans are approved annually by us They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to So we are just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 201920 academic year So there is quite a long lead time We as part of that process go through similar—we look at their financial sustainability which is based on their forecasts—data to the stuff we have just been discussing And also of course the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types from different domains are going to be recruited So clearly if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment then that will reduce the amount of fee income that is going to come in unless they can find other students and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans In terms of process we have two things that we can do If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they have submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan So we have a change process If it is not fundamentally different but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later— We also monitor after the event and if there are differences we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences If they have had fewer students and less investment we would need to understand that Conversely if they would had more students and potentially more investment we would want to know what they would spent it on and if they have done different things we would want to understand that as well So we do challenge through a monitoring process The only other thing that is perhaps worth saying is that in the 201920 fee and access plans—they are not published yet so I can not give you the full detail—five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues so they are in there as well Darren Millar AM: But we have already said have not we that it may be nothing to do with Brexit this dip in EU recruitment because there are other factors like the attractiveness of the estates and the environment that young people might be educated in ? But they are making assumptions that it is linked to Brexit are they ? Dr David Blaney: Not really I think they are making assumptions that it could be There are things they want to do to enhance and to protect student mobility and some of that will be funded through fee plan investment So the Brexit conversation between the EU and the UK Government might or might not sustain Erasmus engagement and if it does not then they need to find other ways of trying to support that sort of thing So that is what we are beginning to see in the fee plans It is them thinking about how else we can do this stuff","According to Mr. Blaney, there's a Welsh Government HE Brexit working group, providing early summaries of the risks and the potential impact, in terms of the exposure of the sector to EU-sourced funding. Beyond that, the working group will also share the work that institutions are doing individually to look at how they would respond to different scenarios, which hasn't been implemented yet." "Darren Millar AM: Can I just ask about fee and access plans and how Brexit might impact them ? To what extent do you think that they could be impacted ? Dr David Blaney: I think there are two dimensions to maybe touch upon there Fee and access plans are approved annually by us They are approved in advance of the recruitment cycle for the year that they apply to So we are just in the process now of finalising our consideration of fee and access plans for the 201920 academic year So there is quite a long lead time We as part of that process go through similar—we look at their financial sustainability which is based on their forecasts—data to the stuff we have just been discussing And also of course the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types from different domains are going to be recruited So clearly if there is a continuing downward pressure on EU student recruitment then that will reduce the amount of fee income that is going to come in unless they can find other students and that will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans In terms of process we have two things that we can do If institutions are becoming aware that the basis upon which they have submitted a fee plan is fundamentally different from the reality then they can come into us for a change to their fee plan So we have a change process If it is not fundamentally different but there are always differences between what you plan and what happens three years later— We also monitor after the event and if there are differences we would then obviously require institutions to explain those differences If they have had fewer students and less investment we would need to understand that Conversely if they would had more students and potentially more investment we would want to know what they would spent it on and if they have done different things we would want to understand that as well So we do challenge through a monitoring process The only other thing that is perhaps worth saying is that in the 201920 fee and access plans—they are not published yet so I can not give you the full detail—five universities have made reference to Brexit and the Brexit impact and things they want to do through their fee and access plan to try and address some of those issues so they are in there as well","According to Mr. Blaney, there are two dimensions. Fee and access plans are approved annually by Mr. Blaney's group. They go through their financial sustainability, which is based on their forecasts and data. And also, the fee plans themselves make assumptions about how many students of different types are going to be recruited. Unless the institutions can find other students, and they will reduce the amount of investment in the various activities that are identified in the fee plans." "Mark Reckless AM: You mentioned the fee and access report What else do you do to assure yourselves that Welsh higher education institutions are effectively planning for Brexit ? Bethan Owen: We have touched on contingency plans but in an environment of uncertainty I think it is difficult for any of us to know what the right scenario is I think rather than looking at worstcase scenarios what the sector is also focusing on is the promotion and looking for additional or increased sources of funding So we touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales so more focus on marketing Wales overseas but also within the UK The other area where the sector is working at a UK level very hard is making the arguments to UK Government for maintaining access to the successor to Horizon 2020 which is arguably a larger part of the whole funding infrastructure—students is one part but the whole funding infrastructure for maintaining research capacity So working with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level for maintaining access to those sources of funding is also a part of what the institutions are doing We mentioned the Welsh Governments HE Brexit group That group which is the Welsh Government group is being advised by members on it and that is informing Welsh Government officials when they engage with UK Government as well Mark Reckless AM: Do universities seek your advice on what the risks and indeed opportunities of Brexit may be and what you think they should be doing to plan for them or is your role more one of monitoring what they do as opposed to advising what they should do ? Bethan Owen: They are autonomous institutions and ultimately their governing bodies are responsible for ensuring their sustainability It is not a relationship where we would advise and direct but it is a relationship where we would question the scenarios if we consider from our experience that we would have expected other scenarios to have been tested It is that nature of conversation rather than directing","They touched on contingency plans, which also focus on promotion and look for additional or increased sources of funding, and touched on strengthening the Global Wales engagement in order to sell Wales. The other sector that they worked on is the funding of infrastructure. So they worked with UK universities to make arguments at UK Government level." "Mark Reckless AM: I understand you do not direct of course but my question was about advising You are overseeing or monitoring—or whatever you like to describe the role as—quite a number of institutions and presumably you therefore have particular expertise within your organisation and I just wondered whether higher education institutions are doing enough to draw on that Bethan Owen: I think we can advise—we can advise based on data and information that we can see We can advise based on our judgment The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario is the uncertainty and the extent to which our speculation is better informed than the governing bodies or the sector collectively is probably the issue Dr David Blaney: I think that is right So there is a relationship with the sector and there is a relationship with individual institutions and they are different So we have engagement collectively with the sector Bethan meets with the finance directors and I meet with the vicechancellors We actually have the sector and the funding council together on the Welsh Governments group So some of these conversations are happening in various ways where we are all gaining intelligence about what might be a sensible set of planning assumptions Then if we see an institution that is manifestly giving signs of not being sighted on some of these risks either through their forecast or through other assurance activity we will challenge We have an annual cycle with two points in the year where we reassess the overall risks of individual institutions and that is based on a whole range of hard data but also a range of soft data Our links into institutions are many and varied We have lots of conversations and we take all of that in the round and form an assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions but also the extent to which we think their governance and management arrangements are properly sighted and facing properly the challenges that they face In some ways we say it is not about the challenges they face it is about how they face the challenges Our alarm bells really ring when we get the sense that actually either an executive or a governing body has not really noticed We are not in that place I am really pleased to say I am not worried about shortterm crisis with any of the institutions There are mediumterm real challenges both because of Brexit and because of other contextual factors but at the moment the sector is a managed sector which is good It is not always like that but we are in I think a good place at the moment So our role is definitely to challenge where we do not think they are making sensible assessments but it is not to say that their assessment is wrong and ours is right it is just to have a conversation about Why have you done this and what has informed your thinking ? It is slightly more one step back and slightly more subtle but it is as you imply us using the intelligence we gain from all of those conversations when we talk to individual institutions as well","Bethan Owen thinks that they can advise based on visible data and information and on their judgment. The big thing in this whole Brexit scenario contains so much uncertainty. And according to Dr David Blaney, they have varied links into institutions, having lots of conversations, getting information for the assessment about the financial sustainability of the institutions, assessing governance and management levels and foreseeing challenges." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes thank you We had evidence last week from some of the higher education institutions including Cardiff University and it is very interesting in relation to Erasmus and the mobility funding for students that I think only 40 per cent of the mobility funding in Cardiff is paid for by Erasmus I note that you have been consulting on national measures for higher education performance and that one possibility is using international mobility as a performance indicator I was just wondering whether you might go further and expect universities to actually make commitments to funding international mobility from their own fee incomes as part of that Bethan Owen: Again reflecting on the latest fee and access plans seven of the universities are referring to mobility—either they have targets in them or are explaining what their plans are—so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income However Erasmus is such a wellestablished and longterm plan—if we were looking at a scenario where that infrastructure was not available to implement anything similar to that would be much less efficient and much more costly And to enable an infrastructure that allowed— Ideally you would want something that all Welsh institutions could take part in and that takes some investment and some coordinating And equally you need to have the arrangements with your overseas and European institutions I think it is easy to underestimate the accumulation of time that has gone into establishing Erasmus So I think replacing it would be a challenge Llyr Gruffydd AM: And the point was made clearly last week that the brand is internationally recognised When you enter into Erasmus you know exactly what you are going to get and all of that But there have been criticisms as well about degrees of flexibility and this that and the other so I am just wondering whether—and there is presumably going to be some change on that front although I am hoping we can buy into it as others have done who are not in the EU—that emphasis on encouraging institutions to look more proactively at funding their own mobility efforts would be positive","According to Bethan Owen, seven of the universities are referring to mobility, so they are including an element of it from their own income and fee and access income. However, Erasmus is such a well-established and long-term plan that to implement anything similar to it would be much less efficient and much more costly, so replacing it would be a challenge." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because that 4060 split struck me as being the opposite to what I perceived the situation to be A key part of your role is to work in partnership with students so I would just like to ask what work have you done with students in terms of maybe protecting their interests as the Brexit scenario evolves ? Dr David Blaney: Well as you say we do work with students We were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales We work very closely with them and the president of NUS is an observer on our council So we have close links with NUS Wales and we are very proud of that and it is very productive They do not have a vote but they do have a voice and it really matters We we are again ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter The UKwide quality code also has elements in it where arrangements have to be specified about the protection of student interests That is particularly in essence around circumstances where a provider gets into difficulties and they might wish to close a course or something more drastic and then what arrangements are in place to make sure that those students who are in train are protected So that is there and we have worked hard with the sector and with NUS Wales to get those measures in place There is more development work in train at the moment so we have asked Universities Wales to construct a protection that takes account of the approach to protecting the student interests in higher education We are also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same and that is very important The students who are HE students in FE are absolutely not secondbest and they should have the same protections","They were the first of the funding councils in the UK to have a memorandum of understanding with the National Union of Students in Wales, ahead of the rest of the UK in requiring all HE providers to have student charters and there are elements of student protection within the student charter. They're also requiring further education institutions who are regulated and deliver higher education to do similar or the same, and that's very important." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is that something that you have a view on ? Dr David Blaney: It is clearly in the interest of the enrichment of the curriculum and the student experience for students in Welsh institutions to be able to have students from other EU countries in the mix So it would be nice to find ways of continuing to facilitate that","The biggest is that there's an issue about investment. The quality of the research base in Welsh universities and the productivity of that Welsh research base are both good, there's just not enough of them. If they want to be able to play into the UK-wide research funding, the investment has two dimensions. One is having enough researchers playing in larger projects rather than small-scale projects; and the second thing is that, compared to UK-wide research pots, Wales' core research funding is not competitive. Also, the Welsh sector has not been sufficiently focused on getting in on the conversations with the research councils." "John Griffiths AM: One final question : in terms of the researcher collaborations and networks that exist do you see potential difficulties after Brexit for the continuation and enhancement of those and are there any particular lessons to learn from Sêr Cymru II ? Dr David Blaney: I think that there are two things to say here as well First of all the Brexit deal might or might not impact adversely on the capacity of Welsh and indeed UK research infrastructure to play into broader collaborative activity across Europe and in a sense that is a function of the deal whatever the deal looks like and we will have to wait and see But we have mentioned playing into Horizon Europe and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity It is not just the money it is being in the club and it is the signalling that we are in the game So all of that would be important And then the other part of my response to this would be that actually Wales will need to continue to be good at the research it does so maintaining the quality maintaining the impact and hopefully growing the critical mass The Sêr Cymru initiative has been quite important in doing that because it is been very focused capturing key research players and the attractiveness that that has then to other researchers around them and to industry collaboration and they have been areas of real strength that we have invested in And I think they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market John Griffiths AM: Just one further point from Darren","First of all, whether the Brexit deal might impact adversely on the capacity of the collaborations is still unknown. But we've mentioned playing into Horizon Europe, and being able to continue with that would be an important part of that capacity. Wales should maintain the quality, maintain the impact, and hopefully grow the critical mass. Dr David Blaney thinks that they are already showing dividends in terms of the capacity to win more research funding, and to establish an even stronger presence in the international research market." "Marketing: Mmhmm so this is just a presentation on the trends that we are going to use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people want to buy it This is to do this I will not remove my microphone We basically used some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time the main results of that and some research on the current design and fashion trends that are out there at the moment and as part of this The important aspects that came out were things that we have already discussed really The most important by far was the look and feel of it It needs to be something that is very different from everything else out there It needs to stand out It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment Most people find remote controls boring at the moment we need to have something that looks interesting that looks exciting that will stand out People will want to buy it That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative has to have something else apart from just the look of it People have to then think about it and say got something there that I want That is a really cool feature and it has to make them want to buy it again Third on the list and again innovative was twice as important as this last aspect it has to be easy to use So they have to be able to be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment fruit and vegetables This is basically talking about just the the feel of it so probably not the smell of it but the bright colours eyecatching really bold designs and a spongy feel I had a talk to the design people about this but having a remote that is tactile that feels different that would be really cool That would make it stand out Industrial Designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ? Marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing Spongy is the current texture but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something that will be something that sets it apart rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment So as far as the design goes the very most important aspect was the design to the customers So going with the fruit and vegetable idea we have got the bright colours so makes it stand out the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours part of the fruit and vegetables Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones they have all got those a lot of them have the changeable covers so they can choose what colour the outside is That is one way of looking at it Textured feel we just talked about Maybe it is another way of doing that So if it is part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture a spongy one or a soft one or something like that So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe to fit in with their decor in their living room or just what they like their sports team or whatever Industrial Designer: that is a very good idea Marketing: and still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality the way the mobile phones work the way the keypad looks Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment They are big selling items People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that and we can start using some of their ideas back to technological in in innovation not quite as important but still a big issue we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it is been lost that is one thing we could look at There are other aspects like LCD screens and speech recognition which were not I do not think in my personal opinion going to be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them I think we are better doing something basic like this which is very important and very will be a really cool feature to put in And use I had no real specific ideas for this maybe we just the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe by themselves Project Manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the Marketing: and then th th the finer details of buttons you do not use as much either hidden away or completely separate Yep and that is the presentation Project Manager: good that is very clear Marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe can decide later on the l the the look and feel of I have it was a good idea maybe to to Industrial Designer: To let the people choose you mean ? Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers but on the other hand I I do not know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because you have to introduce a complete new l line of of supplies it would be very complicated organisational Marketing: Well we are selling so many units of this This is going to be a mass marketed product we can afford to have two or three different designs at least Industrial Designer: a range of a set of three four different aspects Project Manager: Yes and of course it will be a we we get a if it works we can get aftersales I mean that would would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three five Euro That is a very good idea And then maybe we can go a th Matthews presentation because User Interface: then we could discuss later like we can put all ideas together It should be easier with that Project Manager: because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use what you were already mentioning Industrial Designer: And your part is very related to mine because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside User Interface: so I will I will go with that actually","The marketing put forward three aspects in product requirements. Most importantly, the look and feel of the remote control should make it stand out from the rest products on the market. Second, it had to be technologically innovative so that people would be attracted to buy it. Third, it should be user-friendly. After that, the group discussed some specific ways to fulfill these requirements." "Marketing: and as part of this The important aspects that came out were things that we have already discussed really The most important by far was the look and feel of it It needs to be something that is very different from everything else out there It needs to stand out It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment Most people find remote controls boring at the moment we need to have something that looks interesting that looks exciting that will stand out People will want to buy it That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative has to have something else apart from just the look of it People have to then think about it and say got something there that I want That is a really cool feature and it has to make them want to buy it again Third on the list and again innovative was twice as important as this last aspect it has to be easy to use So they have to be able to be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment fruit and vegetables This is basically talking about just the the feel of it so probably not the smell of it but the bright colours eyecatching really bold designs and a spongy feel I had a talk to the design people about this but having a remote that is tactile that feels different that would be really cool That would make it stand out Industrial Designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ? Marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing Spongy is the current texture but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something that will be something that sets it apart rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment So as far as the design goes the very most important aspect was the design to the customers So going with the fruit and vegetable idea we have got the bright colours so makes it stand out the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours part of the fruit and vegetables Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones they have all got those a lot of them have the changeable covers so they can choose what colour the outside is That is one way of looking at it Textured feel we just talked about Maybe it is another way of doing that So if it is part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture a spongy one or a soft one or something like that So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe to fit in with their decor in their living room or just what they like their sports team or whatever Industrial Designer: that is a very good idea Marketing: and still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality the way the mobile phones work the way the keypad looks Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment They are big selling items People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that and we can start using some of their ideas back to technological in in innovation not quite as important but still a big issue we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it is been lost that is one thing we could look at There are other aspects like LCD screens and speech recognition which were not I do not think in my personal opinion going to be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them I think we are better doing something basic like this which is very important and very will be a really cool feature to put in And use I had no real specific ideas for this maybe we just the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe by themselves Project Manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the Marketing: and then th th the finer details of buttons you do not use as much either hidden away or completely separate Yep and that is the presentation Project Manager: good that is very clear Marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe can decide later on the l the the look and feel of I have it was a good idea maybe to to Industrial Designer: To let the people choose you mean ? Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers but on the other hand I I do not know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because you have to introduce a complete new l line of of supplies it would be very complicated organisational Marketing: Well we are selling so many units of this This is going to be a mass marketed product we can afford to have two or three different designs at least","The marketing recommended bringing some elements of fruit and vegetables, bright colors, some eye-catching and bold design, and a spongy feel into the product. Inspired from cell phones, the marketing also proposed a changeable cover which could be customized by the user. Besides, the marketing disapproved of having LCD screens and speech recognition because he didn't think it would be worth extra expense and effort." "Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe can decide later on the l the the look and feel of I have it was a good idea maybe to to Industrial Designer: To let the people choose you mean ? Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers but on the other hand I I do not know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because you have to introduce a complete new l line of of supplies it would be very complicated organisational Marketing: Well we are selling so many units of this This is going to be a mass marketed product we can afford to have two or three different designs at least Industrial Designer: a range of a set of three four different aspects Project Manager: Yes and of course it will be a we we get a if it works we can get aftersales I mean that would would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three five Euro","The project manager thought it was a good idea and the cover could go for three to five Euros. However, he wondered whether the superiors would be glad with it because it would introduce a completely new line of supplies." "User Interface: and There is also a speech recognition to store channel information names like You can basically if you have a multiple functionality say TV VCR or something I say it to the TV and the TV and you can programme the keys if you want to certain keys are even the channel information Marketing: Mm Mm I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like BBC rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad That is a good idea User Interface: so you you you can just because as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly even if you arrange it by however you arrange it you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to Marketing: Mm I really like that idea Industrial Designer: So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ? User Interface: So it it it is like it limited one In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for eighty word thing eighty word which should not be th that difficult to implement like eighty to hundred word Basically you want you do not want to store all the channels in the remote control you want to st store your favourite channel Marketing: Maybe ten channels at the most User Interface: some ten twelve channel information You know you do not want to st store all the hundred channel information into that And basically it depends like the remote with LCD display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie and you are having a universal remote control and you want to you do not know really which functionality is now so I am using the TV so every time I use it it could be like for example I can use a simple toggle switch and a display so I press it so the display says I am in TV or DVD or whatever it is instead of having three keys separately for four keys to model the functionalities will increase actually and for you and you might want you do not want separate keys for all of them You can not And well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed to browse certain channels which you can block them and you can operate them So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present I personally would look at things like having a you universal remote is is a good idea like instead of having unusual ones for all of them you can think of having with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that they have integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine and so if you say hello coffee machine it say hi Joe or something like that you know and Marketing: But a coffee machine there is not too many words they would be using with that it is a it is a small vocabulary User Interface: you you will not be using it so it is a limited vocabulary mm thing and very isolated word and it is it is interesting and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys on the display for the browsing which is again and maybe having something like a blinking thing like it could indicate you are it it could indicate what is cal like the whether you you have enough battery in your in your remote the blinking At the same time if it is a dark room it can be used to locate the remote also Industrial Designer: And you want for coming back to one point Marketing: Two thirty five supposed to finish Industrial Designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ? User Interface: you can let them to do that Industrial Designer: And is not that too difficult for the we want w I do not know if we still want the RC to be easy to use User Interface: N no but the if you give it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put Like for example I would like to store in certain way so if you want to give the full freedom to the user or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint Marketing: Mm I think you can do it both ways You can have it so it is easy they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features Project Manager: yes but but I do","The user interface designer wanted a universal controller with speech recognition to store channel information so that the users could just say out the name of a channel like BBC instead of remembering the exact number of it. Also, a blinking thing which could serve as the battery alarm and the indicator of the location of the controller was taken into account by the group. The user interface designer wanted the product to be children-friendly, which meant users could program it to prevent children from browsing certain channels. In terms of the product components, there would be an integrated circuit, some transistors, buttons, scroll wheels, infrared, LED, LCD, and an advanced chip." "Industrial Designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ? User Interface: you can let them to do that Industrial Designer: And is not that too difficult for the we want w I do not know if we still want the RC to be easy to use User Interface: N no but the if you give it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put Like for example I would like to store in certain way so if you want to give the full freedom to the user or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint Marketing: Mm I think you can do it both ways You can have it so it is easy they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features Project Manager: yes but but I do","The industrial designer worried that the function would make the product difficult to use, which was against the product requirement. Then the user interface designer thought it would depend on how much effort the user could put. Thus, the group decided to produce two versions - one giving the full freedom to the user, the other keeping some constraints." "Project Manager: maybe you can give a hand to us because I I am not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents I am sorry to have Every time I have to come down on this price again to so this might be a little limiting for your creativity but it is it is it is the real We have to consider it S so do we think these ideas an and my sp speech recognition I mean maybe it is possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the the the the furry case of the Industrial Designer: Mmhmm like I would say that for programming keys you said it could be easily done within the the package of twel twelve Euros but for the ASR system I am not sure if it is feasible to have this User Interface: We well we can still look at we can talk with the coffee unit and you can check how much how much they Industrial Designer: Exactly i if if it is a low vocabulary it is already implemented and w how much it is cost maybe with a f cheap chip User Interface: Maybe we can come we we can talk to them and we can come with that","The project manager wondered whether they could implement the design for twelve Euro and fifty cents. Then the industrial designer replied that the function of programming the keys was affordable while the feasibility of the ASR system was uncertain. Therefore, maybe they should make some compromise. Finally, the industrial designer and the user interface designer were required to provide two designs with the exact cost price at the next meeting so that they could see which one fit their budget better." Project Manager: A minute please my laptop is oh there it is thank you So welcome back At the functional design meeting the plan is that each one of you so not me but only you will present the the things you worked on the last half hour I will take minutes and will put the minutes that I have at the end of the session in the shared folder Also the minutes of the previous session are also in the shared folder now so you can read that now or afterwards I had an email from the from the management board I do not know if you a al also received it but there were four points which I think are very important First one is they think that teletext teletext becomes outdated and internet will be the the main focus second one is also important because it is one of the discussion points of the previous session the remote control shou should onl only be used for the television so it not going to it is not going to be a multipurpose remote control so that is one thing to keep in mind second and I think that is important for the Marketing Expert the current customers are in the age group group of forty years and older but with this new remote they will would like to reach a group younger than forty and I think to keep in mind but not really for now is that they want the the the slogan and the and the logo to to be recognised more in the remote So we have forty minutes so I think not more than ten minutes per presentation each and please use all the the the facilities so that you have either SMARTboards the the Word files what you whatever you want So Tim can you start ? ?,"Project Manager mentioned four points. Firstly, Project Manager pointed out that teletext was outdated and internet would be the main focus. Then it was proposed that the remote control would only be used for TV, rather than a multi-purpose one. What's more, the project should target a new customer group, which was younger than 40. Logo and slogan of the remote control were required to attract more attention, but it was not for now." "Marketing: Kay welcome I have some new findings on Marketing Expert level which I will show you The method I used was giving orders to our usability lab to do a questionnaire one hundred respondents were involved and my marketing department generated a report with a lot of results these were a couple of findings first page of three we have three audiences of two audiences I am sorry the first one this scale from sixteen to forty five age the second one is from sixty four forty six to sixty five as you can see here the market share for the first audience is about sixty percent sixty five second audience audience is thirty five percent Mm and some interests from the from the age groups it seems like the young users of remote controls really like the fancy new technology stuff like an LCD screen on the remote control speech recognition I do not think that is really appropriate and when you see the audience the age is going up they do not really want it anymore at least the new technologies Second findings out of the questionnaire are the opinion the opinions of the audience about current remote controls First point is seventy five percent of the users find the most repo remote controls very ugly and eighty percent of the users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy So that is maybe something for the User Interface Designer third findings According to the frequency of use versus importance investigation following buttons are most important I will tell something about the way this this test was done persons were asked what the buttons were they use most how much an hour and in the second table the importance of those buttons when you multiply them you get the these three points Switching channels that is pretty pretty normal that is what you do with a remote control the second teletext and the third volume controls I think it is good that we know what the user want wants at least the these three points have to be very clear Project Manager: But it is strange that the the manage board the management board said that the teletext will be outdated by the internet So that that is strange Marketing: but at the moment teletext is th the best thing you can get on TV like getting information So when you ask people what do they use they use teletext and not the internet on a remote control That is a ne i it It is a new technology but it is not incorporated right now my personal preferences I think we should aim at the audience from sixteen to forty five Mm first of all it is the biggest share the biggest audience sixty five percent second I think you will get the most revenue from i from it people from sixteen to forty five watch a lot of TV more than people who are el elder second point we have to impro improve the most used functions as I said here switching channels teletext and volume controls Third point that came out of the of the questionnaire people used to get lost off the remote controller so maybe it is an idea for us to design ex kind of placeholder on side of the of the TV Project Manager: that is a cool idea Marketing: where you can put the the remote control in that is about it I think Industrial Designer: When you mentioned improving functions what what do you mean by that what what are you think about ? Marketing: not not the r not the functions but it came out that a lot of buttons were not even used on a remote control So you can have a remote control full of buttons a hundreds hundreds of buttons but if you do not use them it is Industrial Designer: Ah so focusing more on the used buttons Marketing: they have to be on it j just to t to get it done if necessary but the most used buttons have to be bigger or Industrial Designer: Could you use perhaps one button for multiple functions like example pressing it in longer makes it switch to an different function for example Marketing: Just for the minor functions perhaps Industrial Designer: ma perhaps just just an idea Marketing: Just to get less buttons on the remote control to make it easier and quicker to learn ? Kay that is it Project Manager: Thank you Tim Janus can you","Based on those findings, Marketing thought the main focus should be put on the audience from 16 to 45 because they were the biggest share, which could bring more profit. Also, Marketing thought there was a need to improve the most used functions, and therefore, the buttons needed to be bigger and for minor functions. Less buttons and minor functions would make it easier and quicker for users to learn. What's more, a placeholder would help users to keep remote controls." "Industrial Designer: I will go sure Right I will be explaining a bit about working design about the project Well what I did was I dissected current remote controls and I viewed how how they w looked how they worked what kind of components are involved and how they are connected together And after that I put up a scheme about how these things are organised and I will show it to you in in a in a few seconds And I will explain a bit about how it works and how we could build one and why I think several possibilities that we discussed in the earlier meeting falls off right well what I did was I I checked remote controls and the remote controls of today are all infrared not like all probably know And the thing about that is the remote controls have to act as a TV or a stereo or something and those have a transmitter that is also focused on infrared so if we want to build mm a remote control with Bluetooth for instance then the TV should have Bluetooth too in order to communicate so that would mean extra cost for the user and thus that is that would not mean a a cheap remote control for us So that is probably why most controls are still infrared Furthermore they all have a a very simple structure so that would probably mean lower costs and i that could mean for us a good thing because well we we should be able to build a relatively cheap a cheap remote Well as I mentioned ready we have some Bluetooth Well it may be possible but I figured it would not be possible in within our budget but that is not for me to decide but that is maybe something for marketing to look into F because well my personal opinion is is not to do Bluetooth or or radio waves although Marketing: What do you think about incorporating Bluetooth or a radio receiver in the placeholder next to the TV connected to the TV ? So it is in the wrong product Industrial Designer: I actually I figured that would be that would be rather nice but then you would still have the the infrared function So in in theory you would actually just move the problem but what I did think about was when you mentioned about the the cupholder is why not introduce a speech function like where is the remote If somebody says where is the remote then it goes beep beep beep beep or something I do not know maybe maybe something to look into I do not know what the cost that something like that would be But it may be may be something to explore I will I will just explain a bit of the components first you have the energy source The energy source would be a battery simple battery that you can find anywhere I figured that would be best because when the battery stops functioning we could just use you could just go out and buy a new one So we did not and we do not have to do all to be too complicated about that the energy source is connected to the infrared button but the infrared button works only via the chip and the subcomponent to the switch there is a switch between these When the switch is pressed in a w on this this case it switches a button when a button is prush pushed in a electric current goes through here and in immediately a l a bulb lights up displaying to the user that something has happened That is that is so the h user will not be thinking well did the button be pressed w what happened Or I press button but nothings happening on the TV so is is something wrong or something So that is just to to to explain the of to to make it clearer to the user w well the signal goes via chip that is translated into electric sig electronic signals and then it is processed and then it is sent to the infrared bulb where it will be received on the receiving end And those interpreted by the device well in this case the television well my personal preferences here well we have to keep it simple Not too many gadgets and functions just like you said well the most users n you have a lot of buttons and you you you use you do not use them so why why should we invent w spend more time on those I I think we should stick by with infrared transmitting and no receiving So no input from the television So I think we should not be spending time on teletext and st things like that because when you want teletext on infrared you would have to build in a receiver too and so in order to receive the signals from what is on TV and such So I figure that would be spending too much money and time and","Industrial Designer compared infrared technology with Bluetooth technology, and pointed out that the latter cost more. To build a remote control with Bluetooth was impossible within the budget. He suggested using infrared technology. When it came to the speech function, Industrial Designer didn't give a clear answer for not being sure about the cost, and he/she just left it as something to explore." "Industrial Designer: I will go sure Right I will be explaining a bit about working design about the project Well what I did was I dissected current remote controls and I viewed how how they w looked how they worked what kind of components are involved and how they are connected together And after that I put up a scheme about how these things are organised and I will show it to you in in a in a few seconds And I will explain a bit about how it works and how we could build one and why I think several possibilities that we discussed in the earlier meeting falls off right well what I did was I I checked remote controls and the remote controls of today are all infrared not like all probably know And the thing about that is the remote controls have to act as a TV or a stereo or something and those have a transmitter that is also focused on infrared so if we want to build mm a remote control with Bluetooth for instance then the TV should have Bluetooth too in order to communicate so that would mean extra cost for the user and thus that is that would not mean a a cheap remote control for us So that is probably why most controls are still infrared Furthermore they all have a a very simple structure so that would probably mean lower costs and i that could mean for us a good thing because well we we should be able to build a relatively cheap a cheap remote Well as I mentioned ready we have some Bluetooth Well it may be possible but I figured it would not be possible in within our budget but that is not for me to decide but that is maybe something for marketing to look into F because well my personal opinion is is not to do Bluetooth or or radio waves although Marketing: What do you think about incorporating Bluetooth or a radio receiver in the placeholder next to the TV connected to the TV ? So it is in the wrong product Industrial Designer: I actually I figured that would be that would be rather nice but then you would still have the the infrared function So in in theory you would actually just move the problem but what I did think about was when you mentioned about the the cupholder is why not introduce a speech function like where is the remote If somebody says where is the remote then it goes beep beep beep beep or something I do not know maybe maybe something to look into I do not know what the cost that something like that would be But it may be may be something to explore I will I will just explain a bit of the components first you have the energy source The energy source would be a battery simple battery that you can find anywhere I figured that would be best because when the battery stops functioning we could just use you could just go out and buy a new one So we did not and we do not have to do all to be too complicated about that the energy source is connected to the infrared button but the infrared button works only via the chip and the subcomponent to the switch there is a switch between these When the switch is pressed in a w on this this case it switches a button when a button is prush pushed in a electric current goes through here and in immediately a l a bulb lights up displaying to the user that something has happened That is that is so the h user will not be thinking well did the button be pressed w what happened Or I press button but nothings happening on the TV so is is something wrong or something So that is just to to to explain the of to to make it clearer to the user w well the signal goes via chip that is translated into electric sig electronic signals and then it is processed and then it is sent to the infrared bulb where it will be received on the receiving end And those interpreted by the device well in this case the television well my personal preferences here well we have to keep it simple Not too many gadgets and functions just like you said well the most users n you have a lot of buttons and you you you use you do not use them so why why should we invent w spend more time on those I I think we should stick by with infrared transmitting and no receiving So no input from the television So I think we should not be spending time on teletext and st things like that because when you want teletext on infrared you would have to build in a receiver too and so in order to receive the signals from what is on TV and such So I figure that would be spending too much money and time and Marketing: maybe another problem I think current TVs can even send infrared Industrial Designer: Yes but what should we s I I I f I agree with you but should we spend money or and time on building a receiver into the remote control ? Because that would be I mean extra components extra designs larger g remote control These all all stuff that we have to take in account So I I my personal opinion is no no no receiver at all well we should look into the design and the functionability Like I said use one button for instance for m multiple functions or well just hide the few buttons o of switching it open or something the usual stuff And do not overbuild we should not make a big remote control for simple functions but we we should stick to the basics So that was my my personal opinion And that was my my presentation","Industrial Designer first explained how the remote control worked and how people could build one. Based on this, he rejected the idea of using Bluetooth, which was proposed during the last meeting, by pointing out that the cost would be over the budget. From the aspect of Industrial Designer, he/she recommended to keep the remote control simple and still use infrared technology. When it came to the design and functionality, Industrial Designer thought that they should stick to the basic things." "User Interface: if you want to change the volume or channel that is always accessible and easy and other functions that are not so important well you we should consider just not using them or at least putting them somewhere on the remote where they are not in the way for the for the most important functions Marketing: I think the idea about touch screen is very good because recently I saw news item on TV about new telephones for elder people they have like a touch screen with really big pictures on it like call hangup and that is a big ad advantage I think because one the one hand you make the remote control compatible for elder users just by scaling up the pictures or something It is very visual intended What was I to say more ? User Interface: Maybe that is an option keep the primary buttons visible make a remote that fits easily in the hands and for some design issues well put a logo on it and maybe use it in some aesthetic aesthetic form But th the important buttons m make them always accessible and pushable and clear and maybe use a touch screen or if that is will become too difficult just like televi some o older telephones use a l maybe it is possible to to flip them open and just expand the number of options that are normally visible Marketing: but but if you pick the the idea the left idea then what is going to be displayed on the touch screen ? User Interface: The extra functions you you just see a menu from system functions or teletext functions and you just choose one Marketing: but l like menu functions or User Interface: and then all all the options will become available and you just c s t scroll through them Industrial Designer: Would not it be better to make just one big touch screen one one small touch screen applet and I will just make let us say fifteen buttons on it and we have three of those actually just menus with submenus with or subitems subfunctions User Interface: then I would like to make a proposal If you make one big touch screen use the same concept as here keep the buttons always available and use the lower part of the touch screen for the rest Industrial Designer: like like the iPod idea that that we just saw","User Interface also suggested to keep the remote control simple and ease down on the functionality. Keeping the remote control simple meant that fewer functions were involved, or at least less buttons were made, which could be solved by a hierarchy structure supported by a touch screen. Besides, User Interface mentioned the importance of being user friendly. According to User Interface, the remote control should be only used for TV." "Project Manager: each time I I had a sort of summary on what you told and what you personal think so that can be can be read out a f a few things I I noticed were Moment Ooh th the the main points in this in this meeting is I think how it is going to look with we must keep it simple but have the opportunity to have more options and have them hidden or something so they do not you do not have a big thing full of buttons or and the point that you want to use one controller for hypothetically each television so you must the the the the functions know like the menus or the the parental control must be all by the done by the remote control and not by the television I think that is the point what Marketing: some of them The menus are not identical for all th for all TVs so you have to display it on one TV User Interface: Well you can use when you how do you call it s synchronized the remote and the TV Marketing: but that is not possible User Interface: then there is always there are always possibilities to change the colour and the brightness and the volume and well maybe we can look out if there is options that the remote in its memory can see what kind of TV it is from ah it is a Philips this and this and that and then give the options that are capable the capable from the t Marketing: Add th that that is an opportunity Project Manager: but you have an international market range so you have I think a big range of User Interface: Well there are universal d remotes and they all have a functionality for all the TVs so this would not be a extra feature to incorporate the men menus of these Project Manager: And it is not too complex to do it Industrial Designer: Well they they all have to be programmed to fit your TV and that that is bit of a tricky job I actually use one of those when They are they are kind of kind of troublesome but but the thing is whe when you start building something like this you have to build a receiver into the t into the remotes because in order for the remote to process something from the TV like to synchronise and you have to send and receive User Interface: no you can just say the c Marketing: He he he he me he means just just one other thing with the current remote controls the universal ones you have to press you have to press a code for TV User Interface: In codes y you you get a b a book with codes You look up I have a Philips H fifty five and it says press code four five five and you press code four five five on the in the remote and it displays all your menu options Industrial Designer: Oh sure that would be possible Marketing: Now we just connect the TV type to a set of options in just just in the memory User Interface: Memory in the in the remote Marketing: so that if you like profile so that if you touch in like one four one zero kind of TV the memory pops up the options Industrial Designer: that would be possible sure Marketing: I th do not think that is that takes a lot of storage space or some just varia variables Industrial Designer: No that would not be User Interface: if you look at the manuals from universal remotes there are maybe three four hundreds TVs at maximum If you have all of them all the old and new TVs summed up so I think it is possible Industrial Designer: Ah it is It is definitely po Marketing: But on the other hand on the other hand if you have a remote and buy a new TV that is not incorporated in the remote Project Manager: We have five minutes to go User Interface: Well then you have to buy a new one it is very good for marketing Maybe or an update software update Marketing: A firmware upgrade or something but from where ? Ah Maybe w Industrial Designer: That is maybe the cup holder Marketing: maybe we can incorporate some kind of USB or a firewire connection so that you can connect it to the PC and download the newest firmware from from the internet Industrial Designer: Well not everybody has has a PC at home Well the most most people have User Interface: you can go back to the shop Marketing: like a s kind of service centre Industrial Designer: maybe something like service cen User Interface: and they can download it for you Industrial Designer: Or you could well you could s actually look at the placeholder you talked about earlier and you could probably make a connection to an telephone line or a internet connection User Interface: Well already digital information is sent t to the the standards TV connections you can see what is programme is on on the new channels so maybe j they we can send that information along with standard TV Industrial Designer: Well then then it is be back to the building a receiving well if it is actually worth it to build it in we could actually look at into it but I do not know it it would be bringing more costs with with it Marketing: I I think it is most cheap or cheapest to just do the updates at the service centre or at the shop User Interface: s I think some I think it is good idea Industrial Designer: that would be probably best Like when you when you buy a TV you just ask well I will Marketing: It is it is it is not a lot of work just one docking station where you put it in press start bling bling updated You do not buy a TV every week new teev so User Interface: let us save this in the meanwhile m for which one are we going ? My mistake Industrial Designer: my vote goes out to the right User Interface: Well I was doubting about which one to take but you have convinced me that if you di display buttons about the same as they would look on a normal remote all elderly people will know what to do","Project Manager emphasized that the main point in this meeting was to keep the remote control as simple as possible, but more options and functions, like the menu and the parental control could be added. User Interface suggested making a remote control which had a functionality for all the TVs and users could enter the codes to set their TVs. Marketing proposed that people could go to the service center or the shop for the updates of the remote control." "Project Manager: One thing that we are going to do is become more acquainted with the the tools that we have access to for our project one of them is our whiteboard And as a sort of teambuilding moment I I would like us to try out the whiteboard by expressing our favourite animal and the charac characteristics of that animal why that why that should be your favourite animal So I I am assuming that we should do that now With our microphones still attached to our bodies Kay what is my favourite animal ? This is a teambuilding time Industrial Designer: are we all doing it individually ? let us stand up and support you Project Manager: My favourite animal which changes all the time right now it is an elk And it goes like it is got like big antlers Looks kind of like like it has holly growing out of its head Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from ? Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer Industrial Designer: That is a great elk Marketing: Uhoh we have a good artist Project Manager: That is a sketching of my my elk and it it is my favourite animal right now because it is a large beautiful majestic creature In a way it looks kind of awkward because it is on spindly legs and it But it can really overcome harsh terrain and although it is gorgeous it is also very dangerous because it has strong antlers and it can really combat its enemies even like it it is a it is an herbivore but it can really defend itself Right I am going to take minutes while you guys express your favourite animals Industrial Designer: I will go next I am a big animal lover like all sorts of animals but for the moment I am going to draw a cat in memory of my poor cat that died recently It is going to be a bit of a strange drawing but never mind Not as artistic as Heathers drawing But I like cats because they are so independent and they always seem to be doing what they want to be doing but that does not mean they are completely not sociable because they enjoy interacting with humans as well and they seem to enjoy the good things like sunshine and running around outside as well as being inside and enjoying their food and generally just they just seemed so cool and they just know what they are doing I reckon they are sort of they got it sorted They know what they want Basically that is why I like cats I will rub that out There you go User Interface: I think my favourite animal would be a dog but I am not really sure how to draw one I I have never drawn a dog I do not think I am tempted to draw a snail because I draw them sometimes and they are really easy to draw right it is going to be a really funny dog because I am not sure how to draw a dog Industrial Designer: Well there are loads of different types of dogs so I am sure it will represent one kind of dog User Interface: It is a cartoon dog I think A s I do not ev Oh oh well It is a scary cartoon dog That This that does not look like a dog Project Manager: It looks kind of like a person User Interface: How do you draw a dog ? I suppose it has a lon Oh my god Right Yous know what it is supposed to be It is a dog I like dogs because they are so good to humans like they can be trained to be police dogs and seeingeye dogs and they are just such friendly animals And like they are more of a companion than cats I have nothing against cats Cats do not really like me so I can not like them But they are just so friendly and warm and nice animals that do not look like that Marketing: Alrighty I feel like a robot well I guess I had the most time to think about it I am going to draw a butterfly because I saw a butterfly yesterday that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I have ever seen out in the wild and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland It was like well it was a little pointier than that At first I thought it was a dead leaf And then it landed on the wall next to me But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this And then it kind of there was a green I think it was a green ring and there was like red going out like this Project Manager: It is kind of like a peacock Marketing: it kind of was actually because it was This part of the body was really dull and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever and I am like wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March So I thought that was pretty cool And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes I wish I would had my camera So that is going to be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here Project Manager: Do you hear the eraser buzzing while you do that ? So now that we know how to use the whiteboard","The team took turns to draw their favourite animals on the whiteboard while discussing what characteristics of that animal they liked. Project Manager's favourite animal at the time was an elk, since she considered it a large beautiful majestic creature that can overcome harsh terrain and defend itself. Industrial Designer followed with a cat, favoured for its independence and always knowing what they were doing. User Interface drew a dog, for dogs were trainable and friendly. Finally, Marketing chose a butterfly, seeing it as the symbol of spring arriving." "Project Manager: My favourite animal which changes all the time right now it is an elk And it goes like it is got like big antlers Looks kind of like like it has holly growing out of its head Industrial Designer: Do you have elk where you come from ? Project Manager: we have moose and we have deer Industrial Designer: That is a great elk Marketing: Uhoh we have a good artist Project Manager: That is a sketching of my my elk and it it is my favourite animal right now because it is a large beautiful majestic creature In a way it looks kind of awkward because it is on spindly legs and it But it can really overcome harsh terrain and although it is gorgeous it is also very dangerous because it has strong antlers and it can really combat its enemies even like it it is a it is an herbivore but it can really defend itself","First, Project Manager announced that her favourite animal at the time was an elk. User Interface immediately joked that it looked vicious, what with the big antlers. Industrial Designer then asked whether everyone had elk where they came from. The team then complimented Project Manager's drawing for the elk. Project Manager consequently gave her reasons for choosing the elk as her favourite, saying it was a large beautiful majestic creature that could overcome harsh terrain and defend itself. She considered that even though elks would appear awkward, they were actually very gorgeous animals." "Marketing: well I guess I had the most time to think about it I am going to draw a butterfly because I saw a butterfly yesterday that seemed to be like the symbol of Spring arriving And it was actually the prettiest butterfly I have ever seen out in the wild and I though that was pretty cool in Scotland It was like well it was a little pointier than that At first I thought it was a dead leaf And then it landed on the wall next to me But this part was all brown and then it has these big blue dots like this And then it kind of there was a green I think it was a green ring and there was like red going out like this Project Manager: It is kind of like a peacock Marketing: it kind of was actually because it was This part of the body was really dull and then it was the most colourful exotic butterfly ever and I am like wow this is the middle of Scotland in like March So I thought that was pretty cool And it landed by a wall and let me look at it for about two minutes I wish I would had my camera So that is going to be my favourite animal because after all the snow it seemed to say that like Spring is finally here","Marketing drew a butterfly because she had seen one the day before, which she considered as the symbol of spring arriving. It was the prettiest butterfly she had ever seen out in the wild, and this was quite unusual where they lived. Mistaking it as a dead leaf at first, she saw the butterfly land next to her, showing as colourful and exotica body as that of a peacock. Marketing appreciated her encounter with the butterfly very much." "Project Manager: it is discussion time So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas any suggestions that you may have so far a your personal experiences with remote controls and areas you see that could be improved in your experience with them Does anyone have any initial thoughts ? Marketing: I find that in the dark it is often hard to know what button you are pushing Project Manager: Mmhmm So what is something we could do to remedy that ? Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing It is always where is the remote control ? So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was I do not know some kind of alarm You can press a button on your wall signal Project Manager: It is a great idea It is a great idea Industrial Designer: because it always gets lost User Interface: Do yous not find that like there is a lot of buttons on your remote control and you do not know what half of them do Industrial Designer: that you do not use half of them User Interface: I do not know what they do Marketing: Mmhmm There is some remote controls where there is kind of a hidden panel so all those buttons that you do not really use unless you are programming or something So you just have like the number buttons power button TV video button Project Manager: Alright Anything about the look of the remote control that you might have ideas about Maybe it could be instead of like a standard rectangular shape it could be something more interesting like Any ideas will do that you have at this point Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch you know Be like a she willshaped remote Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here Like I have seen phones like a Project Manager: Well if it is a trendy original aspect we are going for I mean you are the designers you c you can decide what kind of direction you want to go in but at this point in the in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there Industrial Designer: I suppose if we are he heading to have it like make a huge profit out of this it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing Like a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than like a general kind of more acceptable But we do not want to go towards boring because that would not sell either Project Manager: And the key issue here is is being trendy and original that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous","Marketing first talked about the fact that it was often hard to see the buttons in the dark. Industrial Designer followed by pointing out that remotes tend to go missing a lot, and thus a tracking device would be really helpful. User Interface then proposed that there are too many unnecessary buttons on a current remote, and a hidden panel for less used buttons would be useful. Project Manager further suggested that their remote could be some other shape instead of the standard rectangular, while the team reminded her that their product must be both novel and universally acceptable." "Project Manager: it is discussion time So this is time for us to bring our initial ideas any suggestions that you may have so far a your personal experiences with remote controls and areas you see that could be improved in your experience with them Does anyone have any initial thoughts ? Marketing: I find that in the dark it is often hard to know what button you are pushing Project Manager: Mmhmm So what is something we could do to remedy that ? Industrial Designer: I always find that in our house the remote control always goes missing It is always where is the remote control ? So maybe if you could have some kind of tracking device for the remote control or some signal that you could find out where it was I do not know some kind of alarm You can press a button on your wall signal Project Manager: It is a great idea It is a great idea Industrial Designer: because it always gets lost User Interface: Do yous not find that like there is a lot of buttons on your remote control and you do not know what half of them do Industrial Designer: that you do not use half of them User Interface: I do not know what they do Marketing: Mmhmm There is some remote controls where there is kind of a hidden panel so all those buttons that you do not really use unless you are programming or something So you just have like the number buttons power button TV video button","One function could be to let the buttons be distinguishable even in the dark, so that one could use the remote whether there was light or not. Another function could be to track the remote when it goes lost, probably realized through some kind of alarm on the remote and a button installed somewhere else. One last proposed function was to design a hidden panel for the remote, containing all the less used buttons so that they wouldn't take up too much space on the main panel and confuse the user." "Project Manager: Alright Anything about the look of the remote control that you might have ideas about Maybe it could be instead of like a standard rectangular shape it could be something more interesting like Any ideas will do that you have at this point Marketing: Could be shaped like a conch you know Be like a she willshaped remote Industrial Designer: Are we going into kind of novelty factors here Like I have seen phones like a Project Manager: Well if it is a trendy original aspect we are going for I mean you are the designers you c you can decide what kind of direction you want to go in but at this point in the in the first meeting it can be any ideas that we just throw out there Industrial Designer: I suppose if we are he heading to have it like make a huge profit out of this it needs to be quite a universally accepted thing Like a novelty thing might only sell a few things rather than like a general kind of more acceptable But we do not want to go towards boring because that would not sell either Project Manager: And the key issue here is is being trendy and original that does not necessarily mean it needs to be outrageous","The idea of giving the remote a novel shape instead of the standard rectangular was first raised by Project Manager. Marketing proposed a possible shell shape for the remote. Industrial checked whether they were going into novelty factors because the remote still had to be universally acceptable if they wanted it to sell. Yet it couldn't be too boring, so it would be key for the team to figure out a way for the remote to be trendy and original, but at the same time not too outrageous." "Project Manager: that kind of brings us to this let us let us see if we can decide what kind of energy source we want to have first and foremost Do we want to go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier ? The base the charging base with rechargeable batteries ? User Interface: I always feel like first I want to know what it looks like before Because if it is something really really small then it is sort of harder to imagine a base for it that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up Project Manager: and we do not have multiple things that it has to control it just has to control the TV It is not going to be a huge universal remote Marketing: We need to decide well so we can figure how big it is going to be like exactly what buttons we want User Interface: Well the other thing is like even if it is got a few buttons so we want it to be bigger than this Marketing: and exactly It could be like this Yes User Interface: because it still fits in your hand so you still wanted something that is comfortable and substantial but not necessarily full of buttons Marketing: I would well This one is really comfortable like I like the sides whatever User Interface: Are you going to lose it easier ? Marketing: because But if we have the the locator then we do not have to worry about that So we can make it small if we have a l locating device Industrial Designer: If we do a voiceactivated locator though we are going to be looking at a more substantial chip So User Interface: So i That is the other thing it is like You know Are we going to have certain chips that are going to require bigger size period ? Marketing: Two double As for this size User Interface: But like you know if we get more complicated then it is going to v be have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size Industrial Designer: Honestly I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small compact Project Manager: Right I agree it is either going to be bigger with a base or smaller with just A battery like this guy Alright so what direction do you want to go in ? You want to vote ? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one I think that seems way more advanced Project Manager: I am kind of I am kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of User Interface: I am a away from the base Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and Marketing: because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now those trends the smaller the hotter it is Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash I have had three watches go that way too User Interface: Oh watches I have but I have never washed a cell phone Marketing: Ouch A phone whoa that would wow that would hurt","User Interface pointed out that if the remote was small, it would not go well with a base. The team then decided on a single smaller remote instead of a bigger one with a base, and a locating device would sufficiently prevent the remote from being lost. In terms of the battery, Industrial Designer suggested one small lithium battery instead of double A's or triple A's. An initial lithium battery could be sold with the remote, while subsequent replacements would be bought separately. With this suggestion in mind, the team decided to come back to it in the next meeting." "Project Manager: Do we want to go for batteries or a stand like the one that we saw illustrated earlier ? The base the charging base with rechargeable batteries ? User Interface: I always feel like first I want to know what it looks like before Because if it is something really really small then it is sort of harder to imagine a base for it that was p quite a s substantial size sort of standing up Project Manager: and we do not have multiple things that it has to control it just has to control the TV It is not going to be a huge universal remote Marketing: We need to decide well so we can figure how big it is going to be like exactly what buttons we want User Interface: Well the other thing is like even if it is got a few buttons so we want it to be bigger than this Marketing: and exactly It could be like this Yes User Interface: because it still fits in your hand so you still wanted something that is comfortable and substantial but not necessarily full of buttons Marketing: I would well This one is really comfortable like I like the sides whatever User Interface: Are you going to lose it easier ? Marketing: because But if we have the the locator then we do not have to worry about that So we can make it small if we have a l locating device Industrial Designer: If we do a voiceactivated locator though we are going to be looking at a more substantial chip So User Interface: So i That is the other thing it is like You know Are we going to have certain chips that are going to require bigger size period ? Marketing: Two double As for this size User Interface: But like you know if we get more complicated then it is going to v be have to be bigger to just accommodate the chip size Industrial Designer: Honestly I think the customer would be kind of irritated by the fact that it has a base if we did do a nice small compact Project Manager: Right I agree it is either going to be bigger with a base or smaller with just A battery like this guy Alright so what direction do you want to go in ? You want to vote ? Marketing: I think if we had a a locating device with the small one I think that seems way more advanced Project Manager: I am kind of I am kind of leaning in the direction of this kind of User Interface: I am a away from the base Project Manager: That just seems so clunky and Marketing: because I mean if even looking at cellphones right now those trends the smaller the hotter it is Industrial Designer: The only problem with that is if you forget to take it out of your pocket and it goes in wash I have had three watches go that way too User Interface: Oh watches I have but I have never washed a cell phone Marketing: Ouch A phone whoa that would wow that would hurt","It was first suggested by User Interface that a charging base would not go well with a small remote. The team agreed on this, and Project Manager reminded them the remote was not going to be a huge one. User Interface worried that a small remote without a base could be more easily lost, but Marketing reassured the team that this wouldn't be a problem if the remote had a locating device. Each team member then gave his/her opinion on the issue, all preferring a smaller remote without a base." "Industrial Designer: I think well we could d r do two or we could do one small lithium because you know the lithium batteries are doing quite well in most other electronic products right ? So they are more widely available now And they also have a longer battery life than most batteries Project Manager: They are more expensive though too Industrial Designer: But if you only have to replace it every five years Marketing: That is a good point User Interface: As long as we sell it with it Industrial Designer: Well how about a initial you get one battery when you buy it User Interface: Right that is what I meant Industrial Designer: because I am pretty sure we can get them pretty cheap on bulk","When first suggesting one small lithium battery for the remote, Industrial Designer pointed out its wide availability and proved success in various electronic products. Project Manager had concerns on it being more expensive, but Industrial Designer said the final cost could be levelled down by its longer battery life. The bulk price for lithium batteries would also be fairly cheap. As for how to realize this design in the sales, Industrial Designer suggested providing one initial lithium battery along with the remote, while replacements would be sold separately." "Project Manager: So we have covered that first category User Interface Concept meaning design User Interface: What is it going to what is it going to look like Project Manager: I ki I kind of like your idea about the retro phone dial and that the central button could have maybe our logo on it ? It might be the four way scroll too I mean if Marketing: as long as there is something big in the middle because like the old phones there is like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle User Interface: Well my issue with that is if it got too big though because if you have the circle and the button in the middle then is it going to get wider than your your hands are because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it ? Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a handshape like if we put the the scrollbutton on the side Project Manager: Oh I see what you mean Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful Marketing: So scroll buttons on the side and then buttons on top ? But we definitely If we have scroll things on the side we definitely have to have them labelled Industrial Designer: Well if it is just up and down Marketing: like on the side of it Oh if it is just up and down Well you could do some on both sides User Interface: Do we have both sides ? Industrial Designer: Mm We should probably make it that you have to depress it to activate it then Project Manager: So that you are just not holding it and it changes the chan Industrial Designer: because oth otherwise you are not just holding it and going like this you know Marketing: That is squishy That is squishy User Interface: Well the other option is in instead of a scroll you just have the buttons up on the side which are on the side Project Manager: Kay any other ideas ? Industrial Designer: We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on so we will have to like have a little square or something so that the our logos available User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the RR like that And that is at the bottom of it Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though because if people are able to change the covers I do not know maybe the onoff button something some the menu button I do not know but you know if we are going to put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one Are they all going to have our company logo on them ? Every cover ? Industrial Designer: I do not think we should do that because that would just be icky So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea Project Manager: If we want it to be visible and are all those those one that you showed where they were s met silvermetallic looking ? But those are plastic right ? I kind of like that look but or if it was really Industrial Designer: For our base one ? Project Manager: for the base or if we are going for the retro look I think like a really shiny black would be cool What are your thoughts ? Marketing: or like a gunmetal grey because then it combines the silver and the black Project Manager: There you go gunmetal gray User Interface: I am just really wary of the putting anything on a button Well w w then what is the button do and how do you know that that is what the button does ? I guess Just looking at examples y you just do not ever see the logo on a button it is always on the actual casing Industrial Designer: There is nothing saying that we have to put the logo on the front of the actual Marketing: But we want it to be seen User Interface: But you do not see it Marketing: We need it to be seen Project Manager: Because if it was only on the back really the only time you are going to see it is when you drop it or when you are changing the battery User Interface: Well hang on The other option is I do not know if you can see it but it is like if Project Manager: I can find it again User Interface: it is like the second to last slide Project Manager: And yours was called Interface Concept ? Well for some reason I can not get it to just go to that slide directly User Interface: it is the very right one You see at the bottom it is kind of difficult to see but you have like a d sort of s division between the bottom like where the logo is and if we have the replaceable section it is like the top It does not necessarily replace the entire top And so you have that one piece that stays and the rest just sort of clips in If c you envisioning it ? And so that stays the same when you have the logo and then you have this s slip that kind of clips in and that is the bit that changes Industrial Designer: The only problem is we are using a latex overlay so it actually would go over top of everything and have holes for the buttons so I was thinking maybe instead of doing that what we could do is leave a space for where the logo should be Project Manager: Like a little cutout kind of User Interface: That is like you know a a cellphone it is like the the screen is always just left opened And so what we are going to do it like bright yellow with the RR ? Project Manager: Anybody see anything that they liked in these ones ? Marketing: Some of though Well some of those buttons though are bluebased well a lot of those buttons are bluebased Well kind of and then if v we do have them illuminate upon contact they could illuminate yellow Project Manager: Yellow I like that idea Marketing: Like if we like the one all the way on the left you ca you can see it on your computer better where the button is actually blue but the number itself is clear or white or whatever so if you pressed it would illuminate yellow So we would have blue and yellow for the touch buttons Project Manager: I like the yellow illumination idea very good Any other ideas or thoughts ? We all seem to be fairly in agreement about what we want to do with this project so","Project Manager liked the phone dial shape with their logo in the middle, but User Interface thought the remote would be too wide or the buttons too small. Despite Industrial Designer's proposal for scrolls, the team decided on buttons on the side instead. For their logo, Project Manager suggested putting it on a major button, but User Interface objected that it would wear off. They finally decided on leaving a space on the latex cover for the logo to be always visible. As for the colour for buttons, their decision was blue-based touch buttons with a yellow illumination." "Project Manager: I ki I kind of like your idea about the retro phone dial and that the central button could have maybe our logo on it ? It might be the four way scroll too I mean if Marketing: as long as there is something big in the middle because like the old phones there is like that just like piece of metal or like a picture or something in the middle User Interface: Well my issue with that is if it got too big though because if you have the circle and the button in the middle then is it going to get wider than your your hands are because w And then would the buttons be too small if it was enough to fit on it ? Industrial Designer: In the sample ones that you showed us there was one that had the scroll buttons on the side which I think if we make it curved like a hand like a handshape like if we put the the scrollbutton on the side Project Manager: Oh I see what you mean Industrial Designer: that could be particularly useful","Project Manager suggested having a large version of the company's logo in the middle of the remote. User Interface pointed out that this design would make the remote too big and wide to fit into one hand. Furthermore, a large logo would take up so much space that the buttons would have to be smaller, and thus they would be less discernible. Project Manager acknowledged that User Interface's argument was reasonable. User Interface then proposed an alternative design, curving the remote like a hand with scroll buttons on the side." "Industrial Designer: We have to make sure that logo always sticks out when we put the latex covers on so we will have to like have a little square or something so that the our logos available User Interface: Well I sort of like having the a yellow strip at the bottom with the RR like that And that is at the bottom of it Project Manager: I think maybe we should do it on a b button itself though because if people are able to change the covers I do not know maybe the onoff button something some the menu button I do not know but you know if we are going to put our company logo on there and somebody could just get another one Are they all going to have our company logo on them ? Every cover ? Industrial Designer: I do not think we should do that because that would just be icky So I think maybe putting it on a button is probably a good idea","For the logo to remain despite latex cover changes, Project Manager proposed to print it on a button. Yet User Interface opposed this idea for fear that the print would wear off. Industrial Designer suggested putting the logo on the back of the remote, but this option was ruled out since the logo must be always visible. User Interface presented another option where the remote would consist of two pieces, but this too was incompatible with the cover design. Finally, Industrial Designer suggested leaving a cut-out space on latex covers to show the logo, and all agreed on this design." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you Chair and good morning I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free school meals Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally Estyn has made several reports regarding the effectiveness of the grant and really going back to before this specific grant to a similar grant called RAISE At the start of this grant the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically But over a period of time we have seen that it is targeted much better by now That is not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting is not going just to children who receive free school meals Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that In terms of what schools are doing with the grant we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing They are tracking progress of pupils they are trying to improve attendance they are trying to work with families and the community in general they are doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams in key stage 4 specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence of students taking students on extracurricular activities improving literacy and numeracy Those are the kinds of activities they are being used for Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that is the term that they use—in terms of who is eligible But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening You referred to the fact that it is used perhaps to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals but you do feel that that balance from your experience is acceptable Meilyr Rowlands: Yes certainly it has improved a great deal When I was looking at this initially the targeting was not happening at all It was being spent on children who were underachieving and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls And of course that raised the question immediately that it was not being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals because those numbers are equal So it was not but it has improved There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the best definition So I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly but within the spirit of the grant I think I am fairly comfortable There is a specific question—I do not know if you are going to ask this—regarding more able and talented pupils","Meilyr Rowlands introduced that the grant had been targeted far better by now than it was originally and it was very specific towards the different use of the fund in each aspect of the school day, especially for those students eligible for free school meals. However, Llyr Gruffydd AM questioned that research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods had shown that there was some kind of blurring. Meilyr Rowlands indicated that although schools were not following the exact process, the spirit of PDG was included, which was fair enough." "John Griffiths AM: Mark did you want to pursue these matters further ? Mark Reckless AM: Yes I just wanted to ask about the more able and talented stream It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well Can I just ask— ? Would you look at one area regarding schools engagement with the Seren network particularly for the more able and talented and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils For example in last years annual report I raised it and a lot of the debate around this now I think was generated by some of the things I have said in previous annual reports We gave a lot of evidence to the— Paul Flynn I think did the—no who did the report ? Paul Murphy did the report So we gave evidence to that And on Seren I am particularly proud that my alma mater Jesus College is a very strong supporter of the Seren work So I am personally quite interested in the work of Seren And we look at the performance of more able pupils in all our inspections It is a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups So we look at the different performance of boys and girls free school meals and nonfree school meals ethnic minorities but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils and we have referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work with that is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports ? And on the other side where schools do not do that is that something you would pull them up on ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes we have done that We have done it in several reports Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections we are looking for best practice because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find a solution So capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding Varied evidence has been given to us on this Do you have an opinion on whether that is the best way ? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure so it is a strong measure But there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work For example some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you are not receiving them then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time for example So there are ways of finetuning that measure I think It is worth considering those approaches","Meilyr Rowlands introduced that Estyn had always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. More inspections were added to this certain group of students, especially at the relative performance of different groups and different performances of boys and girls. Currently the main strategy was always to identify where there were weaknesses to ensure the overall process of a typical school day." "Michelle Brown AM: Thank you Good morning everyone You have reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively Why do you think this is ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that do not have particularly good leadership I think ultimately all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant but it has not been evaluated well So I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills But those are some of the specific shortcomings to do with evaluation Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that ? Meilyr Rowlands: I do not think there is any patterns that we have identified in terms of region Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said it is very strongly linked to leadership capacity Michelle Brown AM: Thank you What are the most effective uses of PDG from your point of view ? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area There is the Welsh Government guidance there is our guidance there is a lot of research—the Sutton Trust toolkit—and they are the sorts of things I mentioned earlier I think that more attention does need to be given to the communityfocused element of this work So schools do a lot of things that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier : things like improving attendance offering extracurricular activities literacy and numeracy support tracking pupils—all those sorts of things But an important element of this I think is engaging with the learners but also with parents and the community I think what we have found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of students—are the ones that do that most effectively","Michelle Brown AM suggested that only two thirds of secondary and primary schools were making effective use of the PDG while the meaning, a third, were still not using that PDG effectively. Meilyr Rowlands regarded this issue of lacking good leadership and suggested improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils would improve the process, especially to engage the learners." "Hefin David AM: Yes you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr How does that happen though ? What does it look like ? If I am a parent what does it look like ? Meilyr Rowlands: I will ask Claire to give you an example Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot of progress Claire Morgan: Often in the best schools the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or to bring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this and the use of it ? Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used for appointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give onetoone support to children to monitor attendance to visit homes where children are not coming into schools to try and address what the barriers are in getting them into classrooms","Claire Morgan first suggested that in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engaged directly with the families of disadvantaged children or children who were under achieving generally. And PDG would be used for appointing staff to these positions to connect the family with the school." "Hefin David AM: And those lessons you have learned from Cefn Hengoed : how are you going to spread that ? How does that get spread ? Claire Morgan: Well we have done it in a number of ways Obviously the first thing we do is the inspection report and we highlight the practice there We also have things— This is an example of our bestpractice case studies We also have conferences as well where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers We also tweet use social media to try and get the message out there But there is also— Hefin David AM: This all seems like stuff that is done to teachers It does not seem very engaging Claire Morgan: Well it is— Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very very useful When we had a conference and when we looked at leadership and improving schools Cefn Hengoed along with a number of other schools presented and we had very positive feedback from that So it is actually schools learning from other schools and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on schooltoschool support as well can contribute to it","Claire Morgan suggested that the first thing to do was to finish the inspection report, and the government should highlight the practice there. In this way, detailed outcomes of the methods would be listed and would be shared in the conferences where different schools join in it. But Hefin David AM challenged that it was not engaging and Claire Morgan argued that the learning process worthed trying." "Michelle Brown AM: Thank you Chair You have observed that the attainment between pupils on free school meals and those who are not on free school meals has not closed significantly at any stage of learning Is the PDG actually working ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well I am in danger of repeating myself now It is quite difficult to identify the because and the effect in terms of the PDG So where there have been improvements it is quite difficult to say Well that is definitely down to the PDG and similarly vice versa : if it is not working it is difficult to say that it is because of PDG not being used properly To come back to something else I said previously there have been small improvements Whether you say that that is due to PDG or not is quite difficult but there have been some improvements But there has not been a major step change in closing that that is true and I think the conclusion that I draw is that these are major societal challenges and barriers that these young people face Schools can do a certain amount and of course they must do a certain amount but to have a step change you do need to engage with the learners with the parents and with the community and that is why the more successful schools do actually succeed—it is because they do that So I think more of a push on that area at a national level would be welcome Michelle Brown AM: In most successful schools how much is the attainment being narrowed in the schools that make the most effective use of PDG ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well that would vary from school to school We can look up specific examples for you of specific schools if you like John Griffiths AM: Yes perhaps you could provide a note to the committee on that Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I could have a list of schools and how much they have closed perhaps John Griffiths AM: Perhaps you could include in that what you would consider to be a significant increase Michelle Brown AM: Thank you In 2017 we saw a rewidening of the attainment between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals What effect do you think the Welsh Governments changes to performance measures have had in terms of impact ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes they definitely had a direct impact on it and probably there might well be an indirect longerterm impact as well But clearly changing the performance indicators had a direct immediate effect because some of those examinations qualifications courses that were typically followed by this cohort of students were not any longer part of the headline performance indicators So you have all heard about BTEC Science and the key skills qualifications Those sorts of things that many of these pupils used to succeed at and therefore get the performance indicator for the school no longer count So it is had a direct impact and it is one of the reasons why it is quite difficult to compare the results of one year and another because of these changes in performance indicators Michelle Brown AM: Yes that makes sense Do you think there has not been any— ? Can we take it from what you have said that there is been a positive improvement or has it been negative ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is a growing realisation that secondary schools key stage 4 is driven overly by performance indicators and whatever performance indicator you come up with there will be unintended consequences So it is not I think useful to keep changing the performance indicators and think that you will get to a point where you solve the problem That is not likely to happen What needs to be done is to have a different approach to accountability that does not put so much attention on these performance indicators because what you are doing is you are just moving the problem around by changing the performance indicators Some of these vocational courses that I mentioned are a good example of this So I think the previous performance indicators encouraged schools to enter for example whole cohorts to do BTEC science and that is not a good idea because the GCSE sciences are better preparation to go on to Alevel science for example So you are cutting out the possibility of progression for those pupils On the other hand by discouraging—the new performance indicators discourage BTEC and now people are saying We are not offering BTEC at all and it is suitable for a certain cohort of pupils So it is very difficult to get the performance indicators absolutely right if you put so much pressure on schools to actually achieve those performance indicators John Griffiths AM: Michelle I would just like to bring in Darren at this point Darren Millar AM: I share some of your concern around the unavailability now of BTEC in some schools It strikes me that the decision to discourage the availability of BTEC which is what the performance measures do really is sending a message about vocational qualifications that is not helpful actually to many young people for whom vocational qualifications may be perfectly suitable Is that something with which you concur ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is one of the unintended consequences and what I am trying to say is that almost inevitably there will be unintended consequences So you can sympathise with the original decision to change the performance indicators in such a way that it encouraged more pupils to do GCSEs for example but it does have that unintended consequence In theory there is nothing stopping a school entering pupils now for those qualifications","Meilyr Rowlands indicated that it was quite difficult to identify the cause and the effect in terms of the PDG but what was clear was that there had been some improvements by now. Using the same measuring method, in 2017, there was a re-widening of the attainment gap between pupils on free school meals and those not on free school meals. However, currently secondary schools were driven overly by performance indicators and the result turned out to be satisfying, though the exact result still remained unclear." "Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyns role ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny I would say that would not I because I am an inspector but I think it is important that we practise what we preach There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view and I think in particular we are proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously So I think it is that But if you were to ask Why now ? it is because of the extent of the education reform that we are particularly facing So I think it is a good thing to do at any given time but considering the range and speed of change that we are facing in education now I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform","To answer Mark Reckless AM's question, Meilyr Rowlands explained that any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny. Since there had been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews, it would be healthy to have that sort of external view, especially when Estyn aimed at improving the current situation and adopting new changes." "Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland I would not like to compare—I do not think it would be fair to compare ourselves We do things slightly differently but we benefit a lot from each other We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland from Northern Ireland on our inspections We shadow them and our inspectors go to their countries So we are working quite closely with the home countries but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland for example So we are always all of us learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well We are constantly learning from each other I would not think it is fair for me to say what I think—you know where we are better than another country Mark Reckless AM: Of course I am not asking you to criticise Ofsted I agree that would not be appropriate But I think what is fair for me to ask is : perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we have done and we have developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular So we have got I think a really good tradition of doing that in Wales and when we do meet other inspectorates they are always very interested in that part of our work We are a very small organisation we are only about 50 HMIs We inspect a wide range of sectors as you know but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors So I think that and the idea of a nominee is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world So there is always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team They are part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we have come to our report and they can then help the organisation move forward after we have left","Meilyr Rowlands suggested that it was hard to compare Ofsted and Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland with the decision to have Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales. Different institutions did things slightly differently, but the government had benefited a lot from each one of them. Meilyr Rowlands concluded that the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular supported the whole process in Wales." "Darren Millar AM: Yes it is on this I was just wondering— I mean one of the problems that I know you have identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales and of course we have got local authorities we have got regional consortia we have got the Welsh Government—all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible What opportunities are there perhaps to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted ? I know that the Wales Audit Office for example has its good practice exchange Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen ? Meilyr Rowlands: It is a good question I mean specifically to do with foundation phase there is a foundation phase—I can not remember what it is called now—excellence network I think which is being relaunched I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period So there are networks being established There is one for mathematics—a national network for excellence in mathematics—there is one for science and there is one for foundation phase in particular So I think it is a challenge that we have not cracked yet in Wales : how do we make sure that good practice does travel ? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea because we have got a specific issue with the foundation phase John Griffiths AM: Mark just before you go on I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well Julie Morgan AM: Yes I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall— Meilyr Rowlands: Well what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly but in a more traditional way And where we have seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2 Some schools actually reverted after the introduction of the new tests from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase And basically if I understand it correctly it is more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes but it is less common in year 1 and year 2 Claire Morgan: I think it is very much as Meilyr said the difference between a pupilled learning experience or a teacherled learning experience Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with which is more of an adultled learning—often still high quality but it does not ensure that the learners become far more independent far more engaged in their learning So it is almost holding children back to an extent They are making good progress but they could be making even more progress","Darren Millar AM suggested that it had been one of the tough problems that was identified in the past and it was hard to travel the good practice to local authorities, regional consortia, and the Welsh Government efficiently in a short period. Meilyr Rowlands agreed that the problem was highly associated with the foundation phase and training should be included in both a pupil-led learning experience and a teacher-led learning experience, though they shared differences with each other." "John Griffiths AM: Diolch yn fawr Llyr Mark Mark Reckless AM: Could I ask the reasons for Professor Donaldson being asked to undertake a review of Estyns role ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think any good organisation would welcome external scrutiny I would say that would not I because I am an inspector but I think it is important that we practise what we preach There have been in the past systems of quinquennial reviews I think it is healthy for anybody to have that sort of external view and I think in particular we are proud in Estyn that we are a body that is developing and trying new things and evolving continuously So I think it is that But if you were to ask Why now ? it is because of the extent of the education reform that we are particularly facing So I think it is a good thing to do at any given time but considering the range and speed of change that we are facing in education now I thought it was particularly important that we ask Graham Donaldson to look at the implications for our work of all this education reform Mark Reckless AM: What have been the biggest benefits to Wales of having Estyn as an independent body inspecting schools and other institutions in Wales compared to the work that Ofsted has done in England ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well we have very good relationships with Ofsted and with Education Scotland and the Education Training Inspectorate in Northern Ireland I would not like to compare—I do not think it would be fair to compare ourselves We do things slightly differently but we benefit a lot from each other We have inspectors from Ofsted or from Scotland from Northern Ireland on our inspections We shadow them and our inspectors go to their countries So we are working quite closely with the home countries but also further afield with Holland and with the Republic of Ireland for example So we are always all of us learning from one another about what we think they do well and what they think we do well We are constantly learning from each other I would not think it is fair for me to say what I think—you know where we are better than another country Mark Reckless AM: Of course I am not asking you to criticise Ofsted I agree that would not be appropriate But I think what is fair for me to ask is : perhaps could you highlight one or two areas where you believe that Estyn has a particular difference of emphasis and approach from Ofsted ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think one of the things we have done and we have developed over many years is the use of the nominee and peer inspectors in particular So we have got I think a really good tradition of doing that in Wales and when we do meet other inspectorates they are always very interested in that part of our work We are a very small organisation we are only about 50 HMIs We inspect a wide range of sectors as you know but the bulk of that inspection work is actually done now by peer inspectors So I think that and the idea of a nominee is also of interest to other inspectorates across the world So there is always someone from the body that we are inspecting on the inspection team They are part of all the discussions so they actually understand how we have come to our report and they can then help the organisation move forward after we have left Mark Reckless AM: I have clashed with Welsh Ministers on the absence of league tables for schools in Wales with less accountability for their results than is the case in England I note it as a parent myself But from I think at some point in 2014 you started in your inspection reports of primary schools putting the comparison of how they were doing compared to other schools and local authorities and nationally as well as what you have described as their family of schools and being more transparent over their key stage 2 results So what led you to do that ? What difference has that made ? And was that decision taken by Estyn on its own account or was that something that was agreed with Welsh Ministers ? Meilyr Rowlands: I did listen to Plenary so I have heard you raise this issue I am sure it is inadvertent on your part but you have confused absolutely everyone with this Mark Reckless AM: I am pleased to let you set the record straight then Meilyr Rowlands: It is not actually true The data that you refer to is published by the Welsh Government on My Local School So if you want to know about your own school or any other school you should go onto that website That is hugely— It is very clear There is a huge amount of data on it but it is very very clear You can look at it in terms of tables and data and graphs and it shows all that data that you refer to and that is the right place to have it We do refer to some of that data in our reports because our reports are based on evidence Most of it is firsthand evidence that we see in the classroom and see in pupils work but we triangulate that with data and with what parents and pupils say and interviews with staff So we refer to that data and we always have referred to the data Pre 2014 it was in the body of the text and then after 2014 we put it in an appendix We had a midcycle review and people felt it would be better in an appendix than in the body of the text but it was always there There is pros and cons on whether it should be in the body of the text or in an appendix Mark Reckless AM: Well certainly the data became clear to me in reports after 2014 in a way it was not before So I will leave that there Can I just highlight a few of what I felt were either particularly striking statistics or comparisons or points that were made in your annual report of potential concern ? You state that headteachers do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice in about three quarters of schools—this relates to the foundation phase I find that quite a shocking statistic Do you share that view ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes That is why I highlighted it in my foreword I think there is a general consensus about the benefits of the foundation phase There is a lot of research and our own evidence shows that where it is implemented well pupils benefit a lot from it and they are well prepared to be independent thinkers So it is a development that we should be proud of in Wales I think the foundation phase It is a great thing But we are disappointed that only about a quarter of primary schools are implementing it fully There is a whole range of reasons as I discuss in the annual report why that might be the case It is quite an innovative idea and I think it is misunderstood by saying it is learning through play because that is a bit too simplistic a definition of it We have written a report recently on good practice in the foundation phase so that we can try and explain clearly to people what the benefits of it are and how best to implement it But I think it is true that too many headteachers— Many of them might not have taught in foundation phase they might not have that infant background they might have a juniorschool background There might not have been enough—well we say there was not enough training—or there might be people who missed any training that there was then So overall there is a large number of leaders who do not fully appreciate what the foundation phase could deliver John Griffiths AM: Darren—is it on this ? Darren Millar AM: Yes it is on this I was just wondering— I mean one of the problems that I know you have identified in the past is this lack of good practice being able to travel into all parts of Wales and of course we have got local authorities we have got regional consortia we have got the Welsh Government—all of which want to see good practice replicated where possible What opportunities are there perhaps to develop some other further opportunities for good practice to be shared and promoted ? I know that the Wales Audit Office for example has its good practice exchange Is there something similar that schools can engage with to make things happen ? Meilyr Rowlands: It is a good question I mean specifically to do with foundation phase there is a foundation phase—I can not remember what it is called now—excellence network I think which is being relaunched I think it was supposed to be relaunched during the snow period So there are networks being established There is one for mathematics—a national network for excellence in mathematics—there is one for science and there is one for foundation phase in particular So I think it is a challenge that we have not cracked yet in Wales : how do we make sure that good practice does travel ? I think one specifically for foundation phase is a good idea because we have got a specific issue with the foundation phase John Griffiths AM: Mark just before you go on I think Julie wanted to come in on this point as well Julie Morgan AM: Yes I just wondered if you could give us some examples about how the foundation phase is not being implemented in the true spirit of the foundation phase in the three quarters of schools that you think fall— Meilyr Rowlands: Well what we mean by that is schools not necessarily teaching badly but in a more traditional way And where we have seen that most obviously is in year 1 and year 2 Some schools actually reverted after the introduction of the new tests from what was pedagogy that was in line with the foundation phase And basically if I understand it correctly it is more to do with the children making their own choices about what they do And that is pretty common in nursery and reception classes but it is less common in year 1 and year 2 Claire Morgan: I think it is very much as Meilyr said the difference between a pupilled learning experience or a teacherled learning experience Because of the lack of training and maybe the confidence to pursue that active and experiential learning approach teachers have tended to resort to what they feel more comfortable with which is more of an adultled learning—often still high quality but it does not ensure that the learners become far more independent far more engaged in their learning So it is almost holding children back to an extent They are making good progress but they could be making even more progress Mark Reckless AM: So when you say that some teachers are sort of holding children back and in the report that three quarters of schools do not understand the principles of good pedagogy or good practice what you mean is that teachers are using traditional methods including wholeclass teaching rather than moving towards a pupilled learning experience and one that you said was oversimplified as learning through play May not the issue here therefore be that Estyn is seeking to impose this different approach on teachers who think that they are better able to teach children in the traditional way which at least in my experience would be supported by quite a number of parents ? Meilyr Rowlands: I do not think it is Estyn that is imposing it That is the national policy Mark Reckless AM: Do you support that policy ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well we do actually We do Our evidence as I said is that when it is implemented properly pupils do actually gain from it But we are not imposing it and what we are saying is that headteachers are not necessarily understanding it I think there is quite a lot of jargon around it I was just looking in the annual report Quite unusually in this section we have had to actually explain some of the technical terms like continuous provision So that is I think one of the reasons why people do not understand it fully That is why we did produce this quite substantial bit of work trying to unpack what this actually means in practice and giving a lot of good examples of the practice Mark Reckless AM: You referred to evidence of this approach working Given the timing of when it was brought in and where we are now has that really had time to distil through the system and give compelling evidence that this approach works better than more traditional approaches ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it has to be fair I think this has because we are talking about a lot of developmental work related to the foundation phase prior to 2010 but it became compulsory for all schools to deliver it from 2010 onwards So that gives enough time for children to have been through the whole of the foundation phase onto key stage 2 and we can see the effect of it In the schools where there is good practice in the foundation phase we can see the effect when we inspect on key stage 2 children Mark Reckless AM: So would you be confident about this in the next few years feeding through into an improvement in Programme for International Student Assessments rather than a further deterioration ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think that if we did what Darren was talking about getting more schools to share good practice I think it will expand and more schools will take it on yes Mark Reckless AM: On the sharing of good practice you put emphasis in the report on this being an improving area and trend for the future as well but I think you did raise concerns that it was not monitored or evaluated sufficiently well particularly where one school was supporting another How should that be done better ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well I think this has been a theme of many of the issues we have raised : that whatever the initiative you can not tell whether it is been successful or not unless you evaluate it properly So those evaluation skills I think are very important I think that with the development of the national academy for educational leadership I would hope that research skills and evaluative skills would be part of the kind of training that headteachers get that maybe in the past they did not So that becomes more of the daytoday work of schools—that naturally whenever you do something you evaluate it afterwards We have evaluated a lot of the schooltoschool work We have published two or three reports on it and we have identified what we think is good practice and notsogood practice John Griffiths AM: Mark ? If we move on at this stage—I wonder before other Members come in if I could ask about communityfocused schools Quite a lot of what we discussed earlier was around the importance of getting families and the community more involved in education and one way of doing that I think is through communityfocused schools that are very much accessible to the community linked well with outside organisations having an extended schoolday offer We have the twentyfirst century schools programme but we have a lot of schools existing that have not been part of that I just wondered to what extent Estyn might encourage or highlight the need to encourage greater consistency in communityfocused schools across Wales because I think there is a feeling that it is very inconsistent Meilyr Rowlands: Yes we would very much be happy to support anything like that We discussed it earlier We were talking about targeting vulnerable learners earlier this morning We see that as particularly a solution for that longstanding issue we have in Wales in particular So yes we do have good examples of good practice We mentioned some of them earlier this morning I have puzzled about this I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the term communityfocused school I think it became thought of as meaning the community just uses the facilities in the evening and of course it is a much much broader concept than that I think some schools particularly did not like the community using their facilities in the evening and that became I think possibly part of the reason why communityfocused schools did not become more popular The way I look at it is as Claire was explaining earlier about the school offering all kinds of services to people—you know family learning those sorts of nurture groups all those sorts of educationally focused services available from the school and generally building relationships They are more to do with the culture than the actual building and the facilities But yes we certainly have seen and identified where that good practice exists John Griffiths AM: So if there might be a mechanism that could have communityfocused schools working in the way that you have described right across Wales would Estyn be in favour of such a mechanism ?","John Griffiths AM suggested that one way was through community-focused schools that were very much accessible to the community, linked well with outside organisations, having an extended school-day offer. Meilyr Rowlands agreed that it was a good method and the government was delighted to support the remaining schools which still participate in the process in every way. It was concluded that a new mechanism should be added to avoid misunderstanding the role of community-focused schools." "Michelle Brown AM: Thank you To what extent has the rate of improvement differed between the primary and secondary sectors ? Meilyr Rowlands: I am not sure if there is been a difference in the rate of improvement but certainly I have raised in this annual report and indeed in previous annual reports the difference between primary and secondary We have got 7 in 10—nearly three quarters—of primary schools doing well and about half of secondary schools So I did open debate on why that is the case in last years annual report There are several reasons I think Generally there is a widening of gaps when you go from primary to secondary but also it is from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4 There is a general widening of the gender for example There is a widening of the freeschoolmeals and so forth So there are particular challenges facing secondary schools that do not exist in primary I should say that what you get in secondary schools is greater variability So there is actually more excellence in secondary schools according to our inspections than in primary although the overall proportion of good or better schools is higher in primary than in secondary So I think it is a challenge to think why this is the case It is partly because of the challenges of adolescent young people That is part of it I think also although I have got no evidence for this it is probably more difficult for that community focus to work in a larger secondary school than a smaller primary school You go to primary schools you often see the parents much more engaged than in secondary school So I think that is a bit more of a challenge as well So there is a whole range of issues The other one of course is the one we were talking about earlier this morning the pressure on secondary schools to address performance indicators and examinations in particular Another possible reason is the structure of secondary schools is subjectbased departmentalbased so children will get 10 to 12 different teachers In primary school for a whole year they will have the same teacher It is easier therefore in a primary school for the school to see the child as an individual and recognise their problems and their needs as a whole So I think there is a whole range of issues that explains or goes part way to explaining what you have identified","Meilyr Rowlands agreed that indeed in previous annual reports, the difference between primary and secondary did exist. Nearly three quarters of primary schools were doing well and about half of secondary schools were the same. The reason seemed to be there was a widening of gaps when it moved from primary to secondary, but also it was from foundation phase to key stage 2 to key stage 3 to key stage 4. To conclude, Meilyr Rowlands suggested that a whole range of issues should be considered to help explain what had been identified about the gap." "Julie Morgan AM: I wanted to ask about special schools in terms of your views about the standards in special schools—whether you have got any views on that Meilyr Rowlands: Yes we highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report as we have over many years Over 90 per cent of them are good or better It is a very successful sector The small number of schools that do not do quite as well tend to be the schools that deal with children with emotional and behavioural difficulties But the sector as a whole is a good example of sharing good practice They work very very well together They are constantly— It is difficult to say why that is in this particular sector as opposed to other sectors Possibly they do not have an overlap in catchment areas they are quite geographically separate so they do not feel as if they are in competition with one another But they certainly work very well together sharing good practice doing peer reviews of each other So it is a successful sector Julie Morgan AM: And that includes the independent sector Meilyr Rowlands: Sorry I should have said that was mainly to do with the maintained sector The independent sector tends to focus maybe on those children with emotional and behavioural difficulties so they have the more difficult task to begin with But because they are independent they are to some extent in competition with one another So we have seen improvement in that independent special sector over the cycle That is partly down to the work we do in Estyn We visit them on an annual basis to make sure that they are addressing all our recommendations and continue to meet the needs of those pupils And also I think there is been a trend where more of those independent schools now have— Several of them have the same owner so they share good practice amongst that little chain of schools So that has been a trend we have seen over time as well","The government highlighted special schools as a successful sector in the annual report, since over 90 per cent of them were good or better. Schools cared for children with emotional and behavioural difficulties were improving and they worked as a team instead of competing with each other. Although the independent special sector over the cycle was slightly different, the overal achievements were significant." "Project Manager: Alright ? Alright Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the design group I think we made some definite progress at the last one and come up with some interesting w suggestions for our our new remote control I will again very quickly just present some notes of that meeting the the the problem with existing remote controls we felt was that they are ugly and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better they have got lots of buttons on them that people do not use and find difficult to learn and people lose them And We we thought that f for our our new remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy that we are we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather than buttons and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use That we want to go for a long lasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable A as a trendy remote control and and B as a Real Reaction product So that w when people are happy with that they will they will want to buy everything else from us So again I will we will have the three three presentations from the the the three of you and then we will we will make a a final a final decision and the the decisions that we need to to make today finally are what energy source we want to use whether i it is practical to use a a a long lasting one And I I think our discussion was around the fact that if we are going to go for a long lasting power supply then basically it is sealed for life and if anybody does manage to run one down we will we will give them another one And it it will be you know prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it is you know for life guaranteed for life now the the the internal chip and this is where I need Kates expert advice and given that th this has to to go to market as quickly as possible d d do we go for a custom designed chip ? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves ? I mean I am I am I am n not an expert on these things but presumably there must be loads of them already on the market that we can modify But that that is that is your area of expertise And then the you know the the overall design of the case is is is Kendras field and we we had some discussions last time as as to how we might go forward and we will we will finalise those da today and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface whether we p go for voice buttons or or a bit of both and then you know f for the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look feel and design Kendra the ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation And Kate and Kendra will be producing a a model for us to to look at so if if we can have the the three presentations again please and p perhaps you would like to start k Kate Oh I am sorry oh sorry Industrial Designer: Kay I will just be talking about the components design And basically I just looked at what exactly do remotes do basically they wait for you to press a key or give a voice command and then this is translated into light signals which are then seen by the TV the materials we are going to need to look at the two big ones are the integrated circuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor and a capacitor basically what happens is you will press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip the chip then senses this connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format This signals sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and which is then trai changed into a infrared light which is sent to the TV and sort of seen by the TV and which changes the channels Oh cool so as for how we should end up using this in our remote t couple of main questions are the buttons y the fewer buttons you have I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you are going to need however to n not have buttons or to use a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and raise the production cost That is something we should think about Also we have to work within the company constraints and the company has informed me via email that they are experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most costeffective way of producing it also with battery connections the company has some limits on the batteries we can use so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a backup basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that will last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea we also need to look at the chips v customdesigned versus off the shelf and the customdesigned will give us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all seem to have agreed upon however that is going to cost more but the off the shelf is going to be cheaper and it is going to be allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster but it is going to be less flexible with the features especially things like voice activation which have not really been used much on remotes so there is not really chips out there that would be easy to to convert so if we were definitely going to go with the the voice option we would probably have to design our own chip And that pretty much sums it up Project Manager: so how sorry can you just put that one back up again please ? Industrial Designer: Mm Oh yep sorry Yep Project Manager: d d d I mean inevitably a b a custom design chip is going to be more expensive Do we do we know by how much ? Industrial Designer: Mm I do not actually have any price information no Project Manager: And and do we know how long it will take to develop a a custom chip Industrial Designer: it a lot longer than an off the shelf chip Oh w we did the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed it is sort of still still in an ex experimental form so it would it is hard to predict the time Project Manager: Right I think we need to make a a decision here given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply that would appear to effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology now before we go round everybody else does anybody h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that ? User Interface: I I just have a question about that does it make a difference if there are just a few commands for example if you can preprogramme in like numbers one through ten and preprogramme say you know nine channels and then just use the voice recognition to say channel one and then you have programmed in say BBC four as your channel one as your favourite it is like to have a certain number of favourites Industrial Designer: W just to to incorporate the voice activation in it is is sorta the trick Once you have got the whole voice chip in there then it is pretty much the the world the the sky is your limit User Interface: Then it does not matter Industrial Designer: but to actually the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working Project Manager: Because I must say I find it slightly surprising given that you know mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling So I mean I d d for slightly different well no I mean it is if you you speak somebody is name and it will dial the number for you so bu I mean the this this information is from is this is the internal company information is it ? User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive you know hundred and fifty pounds or something As opposed to the twenty Euros twenty five Euros Project Manager: mm true again but if it is without any without any p price informations that is difficult to Marketing: Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot of technology in them not just that so Project Manager: that is that is right It is like it is it is you can not because mobile phones are expensive you can not say it is the voice recognition bit that is But we do not know I mean I su i I mean if given that the the technology is not well developed and and given that it is it is never been done before th th the double risk perhaps we ought to stick to to buttons since the last thing we want to do is present a product that does not work Thoughts ? Marketing: Oh I was just going to say mayb maybe it sh like maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost Project Manager: I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project ? Industrial Designer: it is fundament well I mean I guess it it is something we have discussed since the the sort of the beginning so I th I think in in our in our minds it is it is fundamental but I do not know that the the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that so I think you have to Project Manager: I mean I think we User Interface: Well I kind of think if we are going to have the voice recognition for part of it then maybe we should have it for the whole thing Project Manager: I I I I I think that is User Interface: And we have been talking about it the whole time Anyway I am I am incli kind of inclined to say that we should just go for it Marketing: it is the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative From my presentation show so Project Manager: I it will have voice recognition if if that means if that means we can not afford buttons but I mean b b second question do we need the five buttons for channel change up down volume up down and on off just as a a backup or just so that people can j j just sit there pressing buttons ? Industrial Designer: I I would say we do Project Manager: Right Sorry d did you want to say anything ? No ? Industrial Designer: that was it that was it","Industrial Designer proposed to select a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery, but Project Manager rejected and preferred a conventional one. In terms of the choice of chips, Industrial Designer pointed out that custom-designed ones were more flexible but would cost more and take a long time, so Project Manager favoured chips off the shelf. However, in view of the significance of technological innovation, the team eventually chose custom-designed ones." "Project Manager: so how sorry can you just put that one back up again please ? Industrial Designer: Mm Oh yep sorry Yep Project Manager: d d d I mean inevitably a b a custom design chip is going to be more expensive Do we do we know by how much ? Industrial Designer: Mm I do not actually have any price information no Project Manager: And and do we know how long it will take to develop a a custom chip Industrial Designer: it a lot longer than an off the shelf chip Oh w we did the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed it is sort of still still in an ex experimental form so it would it is hard to predict the time Project Manager: Right I think we need to make a a decision here given that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply that would appear to effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventional button technology now before we go round everybody else does anybody h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that ?",Project Manager learned that custom-designed chips would be expensive and the completion time could not be predicted as the voice technology had not been well developed yet. "Project Manager: I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project ? Industrial Designer: it is fundament well I mean I guess it it is something we have discussed since the the sort of the beginning so I th I think in in our in our minds it is it is fundamental but I do not know that the the upper echelons of the company would necessarily agree with that so I think you have to Project Manager: I mean I think we User Interface: Well I kind of think if we are going to have the voice recognition for part of it then maybe we should have it for the whole thing Project Manager: I I I I I think that is User Interface: And we have been talking about it the whole time Anyway I am I am incli kind of inclined to say that we should just go for it Marketing: it is the second most important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative From my presentation show so",Industrial Designer pointed out that voice technology was fundamental to the project and Marketing also revealed the importance of technological innovation. "Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to Kendra ? ra rapidly move the cable over User Interface: Oh Yes Is it going to work ? Industrial Designer: it is thinking about it Project Manager: it will get there Yep User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and what you know the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users commands and mechanisms for the operation and there are just kind of a variety of choices findings so a lot of times they tend to look cluttered and these were just a couple examples of different kinds that are a little bit more unusual There are some special ones available like this one right here which is marketed towards children different designs and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V in volume because people some Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like So just kind of minimise the clutter avoid too many buttons and also one of the things that people have used is a slide button like you have on a mouse that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume for example have the slide button on the side and then you can preprogramme the channels the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator Project Manager: Mm Sorry y y if I can interrupt you Well d p kay do you want to say anything about slide controls ? I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they are they are si simple cheap and reliable Industrial Designer: I think they are they are about the same cost really I I mean I think it is just sort of the the there is a lot of slide buttons out there I think it is pretty much the same sort of connection Mm User Interface: Just because I n for example if I am using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down this is my great little drawing Project Manager: So three three there is three buttons on a slider Three buttons channel up channel up down and Marketing: Well if you g if you if you got a channel up down we can have a slider in that as well Because if it if you no if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of if you you know it s kind of like sticks if you know what I mean up like one unit if you see what I mean So it kind of goes up one then y like you can keep rolling it up but it is like like like like a cog or something So you kind of take it up one at a time User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons like the buttons on one side for the channel and then the slider is that if you are just holding in your hand and you pick it up it is easy to n s know this is just the volume and this is the channel Project Manager: This one on the one side and one Marketing: you could you could as l as like a mouse you could Industrial Designer: Ye because I have definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume or vice versa so it would be kind of good to have them be feel completely different You would know what you were fiddling with Project Manager: or th th the I mean thi this is what the Marketing: like the shape of it almost like a mouse with a Project Manager: we have to come up with is the the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know know what it is going to do so we we are looking at sliders for both a volume and channel change User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume but what what do you guys think ? Marketing: Dep I do not know if it depending on the final shape of it because you could have like I do not know it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb and then you could control the buttons with your fingers Industrial Designer: because if in that kind of position the fingers would be better for pressing and the that for rolling Project Manager: It I mean it it it seems to me that it it al also has the advantage that it it the two are clearly different Industrial Designer: just the way it would Project Manager: that there is no no possibility of confusing the two User Interface: I am just going to pass this along Project Manager: that is sorry is that that all you want to say at the mo","User Interface proposed that to avoid excessive buttons, a slide button could be used and envisaged that the push button could be added when changing the function of the slider. Project Manager agreed and supposed that three buttons could be put on a slider. Eventually, the team achieved an agreement that they need buttons for channel change, power, menu and volume." "User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also one of the things that people have used is a slide button like you have on a mouse that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume for example have the slide button on the side and then you can preprogramme the channels the voice recognition and then the voice response sample locator Project Manager: Mm Sorry y y if I can interrupt you Well d p kay do you want to say anything about slide controls ? I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they are they are si simple cheap and reliable Industrial Designer: I think they are they are about the same cost really I I mean I think it is just sort of the the there is a lot of slide buttons out there I think it is pretty much the same sort of connection Mm User Interface: Just because I n for example if I am using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and down so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and down this is my great little drawing Project Manager: So three three there is three buttons on a slider Three buttons channel up channel up down and","Project Manager thought push buttons were simpler, cheaper and more reliable and initially had doubts about slide buttons. But when User Interface revealed that slide buttons actually cost the same as push buttons, Project Manager agreed to the idea and supposed that three buttons could be installed on a slide button to save space." "Industrial Designer: Well you can still i incorporate the voice with with less buttons I mean if the power button was also somehow like a menu button you could press that and or do voice commands and either volume thing could also be to scroll through other options like y and you could scroll through brightness Marketing: that is a good idea Industrial Designer: and then you can you can minimise the buttons and still have those you know brightness and tint and stuff Project Manager: If we we are I mean I am getting a clear message that we think that we should have those facilities available User Interface: So I guess we could have a menu button as well We could have the channels and the power and then a menu button and then the volume So have four buttons and the volume instead of three buttons and the volume","The team initially supposed that the buttons for channel change, power and volume were needed. But then, they came to realize that people might need to change brightness, tint and stuff so they thought a menu button was also needed." "Grad B: Well like in AI they generally do the take in and then they also do the generation phase like Nancy s thing Or you remember in the the hand thing in one eighty two like not only was it able to recognize but it was also to generate based upon situations You mean that sort of thing ? Grad D: And once you ve done that what we can do is have the system ask itself And answer understand the answer ask something else and enter a dialogue with itself So the the ba basic the same idea as having two chess computers play against each other Grad E: Except this smacks a little bit more of a schizophrenic computer than AI Grad D: you c if you want you can have two parallel machines asking each other What would that give us ? Would A be something completely weird and strange and B i if you look at all the factors we will never observe people let s say in wheelchairs under you know in under all conditions you know when they say `` X `` and there is a ride at the goal and the parking is good we can never collect enough data It s it s it s not possible But maybe one could do some learning If you get the system to speak to itself you may find n break downs and errors and you may be able to learn And make it more robust maybe learn new things And so there s no no end of potential things one could get out of it if that works And he would like to actually work on that with us Grad B: Well then he probably should be coming back a year pause from now Grad D: So I w See the the generation bit making the system generate generate something comment is should not be too hard Grad B: Well once the system understands things I just do not think I think we are probably a year away from getting the system to understand things Grad D: Well if we can get it to understand one thing like our `` where is `` run through we can also maybe e make it say or ask `` where is X ? `` Or not Grad E: Mmm I do not know e I m sort of have the impression that getting it to say the right thing in the right circumstances is much more difficult than getting it to understand something given the circumstances and so on you know I mean just cuz it s sort of harder to learn to speak correctly in a foreign language rather than learning to understand it Right ? I mean just the fact that we will get The point is that getting it to understand one construction does not mean that it will n always know exactly when it s correct to use that construction Right ? Grad D: It s it s Well I ve I ve done generation and language production research for fo four four and a half years And so it s it s you are right it s not the same as the understanding It s in some ways easier and some ways harder nuh ? But I think it would be fun to look at it or into that question It s a pretty strange idea And so that s that s But Grad B: The basic idea I guess would be to give allow the system to have intentions basically ? Cuz that s basically what needs to be added to the system for it Grad D: Well look at th eee I think even think even What it would be the the prior intention So let s let s say we have this Grad B: Well we would have to seed that I mean Grad D: No Let s we have to we have some some top down processing given certain setting OK now we change nothing and just say ask something Right ? What would it ask ? Grad B: It would not know what to ask I mean Unless it was in a situation We would have to set up a situation where it did not know where something was and it wanted to go there Which means that we would need to set up an intention inside of the system Right ? Which is basically `` I do not know where something is and I need to go there `` Grad D: Ooh do we really need to do that ? Because Grad B: Well no I guess not Excel Grad D: s It s i I know it s it s strange but look at it look at our Bayes net If we do not have Let s assume we do not have any input from the language Right ? So there s also nothing we could query the ontology but we have a certain user setting If you just ask what is the likelihood of that person wanting to enter some something it will give you an answer","An idea for future work was suggested during the visit of the german project manager: the possibility to use the same system for language generation. Setting up certain inputs in the Bayes-net would imply certain intentions, which would trigger dialogues. Having a system able to ask questions could contribute significantly to training the belief-net. The possibility of incorporating language generation into the system will have to be discussed further." "Grad A: Was he supposed to harass me ? Well he just told me that you came looking for me Grad D: You will suffer in hell you know that Grad E: Backwards There s a s diagram somewhere which tells you how to put that Grad A: I know I did not understand that either ! Grad B: No wait You have to put it on exactly like that so put that those things over your ears like that See the p how the plastic things ar arch out like that ? There we go It hurts It hurts real bad Grad A: It does ! I m sorry I did not mean to Grad E: But that s what you get for coming late to the meeting Grad A: I m sorry I m sorry oh these are all the same OK ! th this is not very pause on target Grad B: Is your mike on ? Grad A: Alright you guys can continue talking about whatever you were talking about before Grad D: We are talking about this alleged paper that we may just sort of w Grad A: Oh ! Which Johno mentioned to me huh Grad D: And I just sort of brought forth the idea that we take a sentence `` Where is the Powder Tower `` and we we p pretend to parse it we pretend to understand it and we write about it Grad E: About how all of these things Grad A: What s the part that s not pretend ? The writing ? Grad D: OK then we pretend to write about","There is potential to make a conference paper out of presenting the current work and the project aspirations within a parsing paradigm. Similarly, as no one could recall some of the points of the conference call, the group will have to meet again and define the exact structure and content of the paper they are going to submit." "Grad A: So these little circles you have by the D ? Is that ? OK OK Grad D: That s exactly what we are looking for Grad B: I d I just I do not like having characterizing the constructions with location and path or li characterizing them like that Cuz you do not It seems like in the general case you would not know how how to characterize them I mean or for when There could be an interpretation that we do not have a node for in the I mean it just seems like has to have a node for the construction and then let the chips fall where they may Versus saying this construction either can mean location or path And in this cas and since since it can mean either of those things it would light both of those up Grad E: I m thinking about it Grad D: It will be the same So I think r in here we have `` I will go there `` right ? And we have our Info on So in my c my case this would sort of make this pause happy and this would make the Go there happy What you are saying is we have a Where X question Where X node that makes both happy Right ? That s what you are proposing which is in my mind just as fine So w if we have a construction pause node `` where is X `` it s going to both get the po posterior probability that it s Info on up Info on is True up and that Go there is True up as well Which would be exactly analogous to what I m proposing is this makes makes something here true and this makes something also something here true and this makes this True up and this makes this True up as well Grad E: I kind of like it better without that extra level of indirection too You know with with this points to this points to that and so on because I do not know it Grad D: because we get we get tons of constructions I think Because you know mmm people have many ways of asking for the same thing Grad B: I change I changed my mind actually Grad A: So I agree with that I have a different kind of question might be related which is OK so implicitly everything in EDU we are always inferring the speaker intent right ? Like what they want either the information that they want or It s always information that they want probably of some kind Right ? Or I I do not know or what s something that they Grad D: The system does not massage you no No Grad A: I I I do not OK So let s see So I do not know if the I mean i if th just there s more s here that s not shown that you it s already like part of the system whatever but `` where is X `` like the fact that it is you know a speech act whatever it is a question It s a question that queries on some particular thing X and X is that location There s like a lot of structure in representing that So that seems different from just having the node `` location X `` and that goes into EDU right ? Grad D: Precisely That s that s Grad A: So tha is that what you are t talking about ? Grad D: So w Exactly We have su we have specified two Grad A: wh what kinds of structure we want Grad D: OK the next one would be here just for mood The next one would be what we can squeeze out of the I do not know maybe we want to observe the the length of of the words used and or the prosody and g a and t make conclusions about the user s intelligence Grad A: OK So in some ways so in some ways in the other sort of parallel set of mo more linguistic meetings we ve been talking about possible semantics of some construction Right ? Where it was the simulation that s according to it you know that that corresponds to it and as well the as discourse whatever conte infor in discourse information such as the mood and you know other stuff So are we looking for a sort of abbreviation of that that s tailored to this problem ? Cuz that that has you know basically you know s it s in progress still it s in development still but it definitely has various feature slots attributes bindings between things Grad D: Mm YOU that s exactly r why I m proposing It s too early to have to think of them of all of these discourse things that one could possibly observe so let s just assume human beings are not allowed to ask anything but `` where is X `` This is the only utterance in the world What could we observe from that ? Grad A: OK That exactly `` where is X `` not the the choices of `` where is X `` or `` how do I get to X `` Just `` where is X `` Grad D: Just just `` where is X `` And but you know do it do it in such a way that we know that people can also say `` is the town hall in front of the bank `` so that we need something like a w WH focus Nuh ? Should be should be there that you know this the whatever we get from the Grad A: Wait so do or do not take other kinds of constructions into account ? Grad D: Well if you if you can oh definitely do where possible Right ? If i if if it s not at all triggered by our thing then it s irrelevant and it does not hurt to leave it out for the moment but Grad A: OK it seems like for instance `` where is X `` the fact that it might mean `` tell me how to get to X `` like Do y So would you want to say that those two are both like Those are the two interpretations right ? the the ones that are location or path So you could say that the s construction is a question asking about this location and then you can additionally infer if they are asking about the location it s because they want to go to that place in which case the you are jumping a step step and saying `` oh I know where it is but I also know how to get they want to seem they seem to want to get there so I m going to tell them `` So there s like structure Grad E: Right th this it s not it s not that this is sort of like semantically ambiguous between these two Grad A: i do you kn sort of that Grad E: It s really about this but why would you care about this ? Well it s because you also want to know this or something like that right ? Grad A: So it s like you infer the speaker intent and then infer a plan a larger plan from that for which you have the additional information you are just being extra helpful Grad D: Think well this is just a mental exercise If you think about focus on this question how would you design pause that ? Is it do you feel confident about saying this is part of the language already to to detect those plans and why would anyone care about location if not you know and so forth Or do you actually I mean this is perfectly legitimate and I I would not have any problems with erasing this and say that s all we can activate based on the utterance out of context Grad A: Mm And just by an additional link Oh Grad D: And then the the the miracle that we get out the intention Go there happens based on what we know about that entity about the user about his various beliefs goals desires blah blah blah Grad A: with context and enough user information Grad D: Absolutely fine But this is the sort of thing I I propose that we think about so that we actually end up with nodes for the discourse and ontology so that we can put them into our Bayes net never change them so we all there is is `` where is X `` and Eva can play around with the observed things and we can run our better JavaBayes and have it produce some output And for the first time in th in in the world we look at our output and and see whether it it s any good You know ? I mean Grad E: Here s hoping Right ? Now cross your fingers Grad D: I I mean for me this is just a ba matter of curiosity I want to would like to look at what this ad hoc process of designing a belief net would actually produce If if we ask it where is something And maybe it also h enables you to think about certain things more specifically come up with interesting questions to which you can find interesting answers And additionally it might fit in really nicely with the paper Because if if if we want an example for the paper I suggest there it is So th this might be a nice opening paragraph for the paper as saying `` you know people look at kinds of at ambiguities `` and in the literature there s `` bank `` and whatever kinds of garden path phenomenon And we can say well that s all nonsense A A these things are never really ambiguous in discourse B B do not ever occur really in discourse but normal statements that seem completely unambiguous such as `` where is the blah blah `` actually are terribly complex and completely ambiguous And so what every everybody else has been doing so far in in in you know has been completely nonsensical and can all go into the wastepaper bin and the only Grad E: That s always a good way to begin Grad D: And the the the only Nice overture but you know just not really OK I m eja exaggerating but that might be you know saying `` hey `` you know some stuff is is actually complex if you look at it in in in the vacuum and and ceases to be complex in reality And some stuff that s as that s absolutely straightforward in the vacuum is actually terribly complex in reality Would be nice sort of also nice bottom up linguistics type message Versus the old top down school I m running out of time OK","The Bayes-net is going to be the focus of the presentation. In order to complete a functioning prototype of the belief-net, it was decided to start expanding the Ontology and Discourse nodes by working with a simple construction, like ""where is X?"". A robust analysis of such a basic utterance will indicate what the limits of the information derived from the construction are, as well as ways to design the whole module and fit other constructions in. " "Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme ? I hope ? Grad E: No I My guess is I I asked for a commented version of that file ? If we get that then it s pause doable even without getting into it even though the Scheme li stuff is really well documented in the pause Festival Grad D: Well I guess if you are not used to functional programming Scheme can be completely incomprehensible Cuz there s no Like pause there s lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Anyway it We will sort this out But anyway send me the note and then I will I will check with Morgan on the money I I do not anticipate any problem but we have to pause ask Oh so this was nonvocalsound You know on the generation thing if comment sh y she s really going to do that then we should be able to get prosody as well So it will say it s nonsense with perfect intonation Grad D: Are we going to Can we change the voice of the of the thing because right now the voice sounds like a murderer Grad E: Yep We ha we have to change the voice Grad D: The the little Smarticus Smarticus sounds like a murderer Grad A: That s good to know Grad D: `` I have your reservations `` Grad A: But I will not give them to you unless you come into my lair Grad E: It is we have the choice between the usual Festival voices which I already told the SmartKom people we are not going to use because they are really bad Professor C: It s the name of some program Grad B: Oh oh Got it OK Grad A: You know the usual party voices Grad B: I know That does not sound exactly right either Grad E: OGI has crafted a couple of diphone type voices that are really nice and we are going to use pause that We can still d agree on a gender if we want So we still have male or female Grad B: I think Well let s just pick whatever sounds best Unfortunately probably male voices a bit more research on Grad D: Does OGI stand for ? comment Original German Institute ? Professor C: It turns out there s the long standing links with these guys in the speech group","For the SmartKom generation module, all the syntax-to-prosody rules are going to be re-written for English. Additionally, OGI can offer a range of synthesiser voices to choose from. " "Grad E: Now and this concept to speech module has pause certain rules on how pause if you get the following syntactic structure how to map this onto prosodic rules And Fey has foolheartedly agreed to rewrite the German concept syntax to prosody rules Grad B: I did not know she spoke German Oh Rewrite the German ones into English OK got it Grad E: Into English And therefore pause the if it s OK that we give her a couple of more hours per week then pause she will do that Grad D: What pause language is that pause written i Is that that Scheme thing that you showed me ? Grad E: That s the LISP type scheme Grad D: She knows how to program in Scheme ? I hope ? Grad E: No I My guess is I I asked for a commented version of that file ? If we get that then it s pause doable even without getting into it even though the Scheme li stuff is really well documented in the pause Festival Grad D: Well I guess if you are not used to functional programming Scheme can be completely incomprehensible Cuz there s no Like pause there s lots of unnamed functions Professor C: Anyway it We will sort this out But anyway send me the note and then I will I will check with Morgan on the money I I do not anticipate any problem but we have to pause ask Oh so this was nonvocalsound You know on the generation thing if comment sh y she s really going to do that then we should be able to get prosody as well So it will say it s nonsense with perfect intonation Grad D: Are we going to Can we change the voice of the of the thing because right now the voice sounds like a murderer Grad E: Yep We ha we have to change the voice Grad D: The the little Smarticus Smarticus sounds like a murderer","As the translation of the german SmartKom into English moves on, the generation rules may prove difficult to tackle for someone without experience in functional programming, as they are written in LISP." "Professor C: w Which is comment mental spaces and and or Grad B: It s hard it s hard Professor C: It s a hard puzzle But the other part of it is the way they connect to these probabilistic relational models So pause there s all the problems that the linguists know about about mental spaces and the cognitive linguists know about but then there s this problem of the belief net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief nets which they call dynamic they incorrectly call dynamic belief nets So there s a term `` dynamic belief net `` does not mean that It means time slices And Srini used those and people use them But one of the things I w would like to do over the next month it may take more comment is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be but also what that would translate into in terms of belief net and the inferences So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models they are set up in principle so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other and all that sort of stuff so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you ve got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate pause belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate But that s g that s as far as I can tell it s it s putting together two real hard problems One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and and when you have a certain construction that implies certain couplings and other couplings you know between let s say between the past and the present or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief net work if it s got let s say one in in you know different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs or any of these other ones of of multiple models So you know in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both in a way we that you know th hopefully turns out to be consistent so that the And sometimes it s actually easier to solve two hard problems than one because they constrain each other I mean if you ve got huge ra huge range of possible choices We will see But anyway so that s Grad A: Oh like I solved the the problem of we were talking about how do you various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote `` count as a noun phrase `` you know occur as an argument of a higher construction but a bare singular stem does not get to act that way and it would take a really long time to explain it now but I m about to write it up this evening I solved that at the same time as `` how do we keep adjectives from floating to the left of determiners and how do we keep all of that from floating outside the noun phrase `` to get something like `` I the kicked dog `` Did it did it at once So maybe maybe it will be a similar thing Professor C: No I know I th I I think that is going to be sort of the key to this wh to th the big project of the summer of of getting the constructions right is that people do manage to do this so there probably are some relatively clean rules they are just not context free trees And if we if the formalism is is good then we should be able to have you know sort of moderate scale thing And that by the way is is Keith what I encouraged George to be talking with you about Not the formalism yet The p And Oh another thing there was this thing that Nancy agreed to in a in a weak moment this morning that sorry In a in a friendly moment Anyway that we were that we are going to try to get a first cut at the revised formalism by the end of next week OK ? Probably skipping the mental spaces part","The Bayes-net is going to be the focus of the presentation. In order to complete a functioning prototype of the belief-net, it was decided to start expanding the Ontology and Discourse nodes by working with a simple construction, like ""where is X?"". A robust analysis of such a basic utterance will indicate what the limits of the information derived from the construction are, as well as ways to design the whole module and fit other constructions in. " "Grad A: ! This is something you ha you get used to as a programmer right ? You know comment and it s cool it works out that way Grad E: So the the people at Saarbruecken and I decided not to touch it ever again that would work OK I was going to ask you where something is and what we know about that Grad B: Where the `` where is `` construction is Grad A: What what thing is this ? Grad E: Oh but by we can ask did you get to read all four hundred words ? Was it OK ? Was it ? Grad D: I I wa I was looking at it It does not follow logically It does not The first paragraph does not seem to have any link to the second paragraph Each paragraph is good though I li Professor C: I i Well it it s fine Grad A: It was written by committee Professor C: Anyway But c the meeting looks like it s it s going to be good So I think it s Grad B: I did not know about it until pause Robert told me like Professor C: I I ra I ran across it in I do not even know where you know some just some weird place And I I m surprised I did not know about it Grad B: Y Well I was like why did not Dan tell me ? Professor C: since we know all the invited speakers an Right or some Anyway So But anyway I so I I did see that Oh wha Before we get started on this st so I also had a nice email correspondence with Daphne Kohler who said yes indeed she would love to work with us on the you know using these structured belief nets and stuff but pause starting in August that she s also got a new student working on this and that we should get in touch with them again in August and then we will figure out a way for you you to get seriously connected with their group So that s looks pretty good And I will say it now So And it looks to me like comment we are now at a good point to do something start working on something really hard We ve been so far working on things that are easy w Which is comment mental spaces and and or Grad B: It s hard it s hard Professor C: It s a hard puzzle But the other part of it is the way they connect to these probabilistic relational models So pause there s all the problems that the linguists know about about mental spaces and the cognitive linguists know about but then there s this problem of the belief net people have only done a moderately good job of dealing with temporal belief nets which they call dynamic they incorrectly call dynamic belief nets So there s a term `` dynamic belief net `` does not mean that It means time slices And Srini used those and people use them But one of the things I w would like to do over the next month it may take more comment is to st understand to what extent we can not only figure out the constructions for them for multiple worlds and sort of what the formalism will look like and where the slots and fillers will be but also what that would translate into in terms of belief net and the inferences So the story is that if you have these probabilistic relational models they are set up in principle so that you can make new instances and instances connect to each other and all that sort of stuff so it should be feasible to set them up in such a way that if you ve got the past tense and the present tense and each of those is a separate pause belief structure that they do their inferences with just the couplings that are appropriate But that s g that s as far as I can tell it s it s putting together two real hard problems One is the linguistic part of what are the couplings and and when you have a certain construction that implies certain couplings and other couplings you know between let s say between the past and the present or any other one of these things and then we have this inference problem of exactly technically how does the belief net work if it s got let s say one in in you know different tenses or my beliefs and your beliefs or any of these other ones of of multiple models So you know in the long run we need to solve both of those and my suggestion is that we start digging into them both in a way we that you know th hopefully turns out to be consistent so that the And sometimes it s actually easier to solve two hard problems than one because they constrain each other I mean if you ve got huge ra huge range of possible choices We will see But anyway so that s Grad A: Oh like I solved the the problem of we were talking about how do you various issues of how come a plural noun gets to quote `` count as a noun phrase `` you know occur as an argument of a higher construction but a bare singular stem does not get to act that way","Additionally, in the example ""Where is X?"" construction, the ambiguity (Location or Path) could be coded either in the semantics of the construction or as if determined by context. The former could mean creating a different construction for every slight pragmatic variation, and the latter, some of the belief-net probabilities could be instantiated in the lexicon. " "User Interface: I think this is just the preliminary get some rough ideas for what our experiences with remote controls have been and and what we would roughly what we would incorporate into a new one maybe Project Manager: Right who is got experiences with remote controls then ? Pretty much everybody User Interface: I think we have all got Industrial Designer: Is this a TV one we are supposed to make ? Marketing: it is a TV remote control A new remote control for TV What would I like ? Project Manager: W what You want it big do you want it small Are we are we going for like like telephones are going little teeny tiny things or we are going for something that is that is big and User Interface: Mm it seems like there is like there is sort of a tension between two ideas I mean you want you want one remote that maybe can work all all of the functions of TV and if you have whatever associated with TV the DVD player or something like that Project Manager: Video and ts hifi and stuff User Interface: but like at the same time you do not want to really busy remote with a thousand buttons on it or something Project Manager: now th that is the other thing is it is got to be cheap Because I I I mean I was thinking something that is got different like maybe a a an LCD display on it that is got different pages for different devices","Firstly the group confirmed that their target is a TV remote control. Marketing expects the control to be produced in medium size. User Interface indicated that the control should have a simple practical interface, without a great amount of buttons. Project Manager intended to relate the control with other devices like DVD, HI-FI, video, etc. And the team agreed on the inexpensiveness of the control." "Project Manager: now th that is the other thing is it is got to be cheap Because I I I mean I was thinking something that is got different like maybe a a an LCD display on it that is got different pages for different devices but that would p that would probably be quite expensive Industrial Designer: But how do we know how much I mean how much do we have per how much ? User Interface: It g can not be more than twelve fifty per unit Industrial Designer: So do we have to be realistic within the budget or","Project Manager had an idea of the insertion of LCD display screen on the remote control, which may possess different pages for different devices. However, they reaffirmed the budget of twenty-five per unit and decided to be realistic with the budget." "Marketing: Could not we have like one that comes out ? Like so you have one in like mm it does not have to be really thick I mean remote controls can be thin bits And then you have one for your DVD and you sort of slide it out and then you have another one you slide it out have slides And then it all comes compact into one So it is not you actually just putting three or four different remotes together but making them thinner and into one basically Project Manager: Th that is an idea Marketing: So you just flip them out",Marketing believed that an ideal remote control should compress 3-4 different controllers in a thin combination. Users can switch controllers by sliding or flipping. Industrial Designer proposed a two-sided controller and said that he could keep it simple on one side and complicated on the other side. "Industrial Designer: have one very complicated one on one side with all the DVD and VCR access and stuff and then on the other side o one a remote control that would be very very simple with just the channel program plus and minus and the just the mute button for example I can real keep it really really simple on one side and the other side be very complicated Project Manager: One side for kids one side for adults User Interface: I am not sure if that is like Industrial Designer: Or grandma as well you know it is like what is the mute button User Interface: I am not sure if it is a good idea to have a two sided remote though because it would be very hard to use in the way that you mani manipulate it Industrial Designer: No but you would slide it into someth like something on the back would hold like you would not be able to press the buttons but Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone something like that maybe F flip it open and you have got all the buttons or you flip it closed and you have just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip","Industrial Designer and Project Manager proposed the two-sided remote control, whose one side could be designed for kids and the other for adults. However, in this way, User Interface prospected a potential hard manipulation." "Project Manager: or something like a flip telephone something like that maybe F flip it open and you have got all the buttons or you flip it closed and you have just got the basic buttons on the outside maybe Marketing: I was thinking that like a flip Project Manager: oh we have got five minutes left","Project Manager proposed the design of a flip telephone which could help solve this problem. When the controller is flipped open, users got all the buttons ; while basic buttons are on the cover. The team reached an agreement on it." "Marketing: But what will make it what will make it interesting for people to buy though ? Project Manager: Or maybe even so something that is for disabled people Marketing: I mean if it is if it is just like Project Manager: or so people that b do not see very well or big buttons for touchy buttons for User Interface: Sorta find a niche for our remote like market it to a certain kind of p kind of people Project Manager: Or just one that looks really fucking cool Industrial Designer: Could be really light or I do not know something special User Interface: no I think you are right rathe rather than focus on Project Manager: Otherwise we will be we will be here all day talking about do this let us do that n I think we sh I think we should Industrial Designer: because at the end of the day if it says just TV remote does not say com combination with all all the are Project Manager: I mean obviously everyone we are you know sounds like we are all a bit sort of gadget heads and we like things that do everything at once but you know that is User Interface: Remotes spinning out from other remotes and having little nested remotes inside Project Manager: that is right I mean I would like one that makes tea as well but that is not going to happen Marketing: I think a flip up thing because you always have this problem of like if it is on this well I did anyway like we had five or six remotes and they would be lying on the c on the coach and you would come and sit down and ooh the telephones the television switched on or something So maybe something that like does have a lid or closes so you do not accidentally press a button or record button for something Project Manager: like a lock f like a lock functs function on it like you have on your telephones Marketing: But make it like really snazzy and cool people will want it So make it Project Manager: it is got to be sellable User Interface: that is true what you were saying I mean it does not have to have a flip function it can just have a lock function so that it is not not usable when you do not want it to be usable Marketing: And even for kids as well It is it is safer for them I guess Like they do not flick onto channels and all that sl flick onto Project Manager: No porn channel for children so we have got some ideas we have got User Interface: I guess that is good good for now",Marketing proposed the design of a lid to avoid accidental pressing and touching. Project Manager proposed the design of a lock which could increase safety insurance for kids. "Professor A: We are going ? OK Sh Close your door on door on the way out ? Probably want to get this other door too OK So What are we talking about today ? PhD E: well first there are perhaps these Meeting Recorder digits that we tested Professor A: Oh That was kind of interesting The both the the SRI System and the oth And for one thing that that sure shows the difference between having a lot of training data or not the The best kind of number we have on the English on near microphone only is is three or four percent And it s significantly better than that using fairly simple front ends on on the with the SRI system So I th I think that the But that s that s using a a pretty huge amount of data mostly not digits of course but but then again Well In fact mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas in this case we are just using digits for training the H M Did anybody mention about whether the the SRI system is a is is doing the digits the wor as a word model or as a sub s sub phone states ? PhD E: I guess it s it s allophone models I think so because it s their very d huge their huge system And But So There is one difference Well the SRI system the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation So there is It s their complete system and including on line unsupervised adaptation And if you do not use adaptation the error rate is around fifty percent worse I think if I remember Professor A: It s tha it s that much huh ? PhD E: Nnn It s It s quite significant Professor A: But but what what I think I would be interested to do given that is that we we should take I guess that somebody s going to do this right ? is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system right ? PhD E: We can do something like that But But I guess the main point is the data because I am not sure Our back end is is fairly simple but until now well the attempts to improve it or have fail Ah well I mean what Chuck tried to to to do Professor A: but he s doing it with the same data right ? I mean so to So there s there s there s two things being affected I mean One is that that you know there s something simple that s wrong with the back end We ve been playing a number of states I I do not know if he got to the point of playing with the number of Gaussians yet but but you know But so far he had not gotten any big improvement but that s all with the same amount of data which is pretty small PhD E: Mmm So we could retrain some of these tandem on on huge Professor A: Well you could do that but I m saying even with it not with that part not retrained just just using having the H M Ms much better H M PhD E: Ah Just f for the HMM models Professor A: But just train those H M Ms using different features the features coming from our Aurora stuff PhD E: But what would be interesting to see also is what what perhaps it s not related the amount of data but the recording conditions I do not know Because it s probably not a problem of noise because our features are supposed to be robust to noise It s not a problem of channel because there is normalization with respect to the channel So Professor A: I I I m sorry What what is the problem that you are trying to explain ? PhD E: The the fact that the result with the tandem and Aurora system are so much worse Professor A: That the Oh So much worse ? Oh I but I m I m almost certain that it it I mean that it has to do with the amount of training data It it s it s orders of magnitude off PhD E: but but we train only on digits and it s it s a digit task so Well Professor A: But but having a huge If if you look at what commercial places do they use a huge amount of data This is a modest amount of data So I mean ordinarily you would say `` well given that you have enough occurrences of the digits you can just train with digits rather than with you know `` But the thing is if you have a huge in other words do word models But if you have a huge amount of data then you are going to have many occurrences of similar allophones And that s just a huge amount of training for it So it s I I think it has to be that because as you say this is you know this is near microphone it s really pretty clean data Now some of it could be the fact that let s see in the in these multi train things did we include noisy data in the training ? I mean that could be hurting us actually for the clean case PhD E: Well actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are are better than the multi train Professor A: Cuz this is clean data and so that s not too surprising PhD E: Well o I guess what I meant is that well let s say if we if we add enough data to train on the on the Meeting Recorder digits I guess we could have better results than this And What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something from this what s what s wrong what what is different between TI digits and these digits and Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI digits ? PhD E: It s point eight percent so Professor A: So in the actual TI digits database we are getting point eight percent and here we are getting three or four three let s see three for this ? Sure but I mean point eight percent is something like double or triple what people have gotten who ve worked very hard at doing that And and also as you point out there s adaptation in these numbers also So if you you know put the ad adap take the adaptation off then it for the English Near you get something like two percent And here you had you know something like three point four And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on You know I do not think there s anything magical here It s you know we used a simple HTK system with a modest amount of data And this is a a you know modern system has has a lot of nice points to it So I mean the HTK is an older HTK even So it it s not that surprising But to me it just it just meant a practical point that if we want to publish results on digits that that people pay attention to we probably should Cuz we ve had the problem before that you get show some nice improvement on something that s that s it seems like too large a number and people do not necessarily take it so seriously So the three point four percent for this is is So why is it It s an interesting question though still Why is why is it three point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to the point eight percent for for for the original TI digits database ? PhD E: th that s th that s my point Professor A: Given given the same So ignore ignoring the the the SRI system for a moment PhD E: I I I do not I Mm Professor A: just looking at the TI di the tandem system if we are getting point eight percent which yes it s high It s you know it it s not awfully high but it s you know it s it s high Why is it four times as high or more ? Right ? I mean there s even though it s close miked there s still there really is background noise And I suspect when the TI digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over It was not I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any in any sense at all PhD E: Well And acoustically it s q it s I listened It s quite different TI digit is it s very very clean and it s like studio recording whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm Professor A: Right So I think they were PhD E: It s nonvocalsound not controlled at all I mean Professor A: I I think it s it s So Yes It s I think it s it s the indication it s harder and again you know i that s true either way I mean so take a look at the the SRI results I mean they are much much better but still you are getting something like one point three percent for things that are same data as in T TI digits the same same text And I m sure the same same system would would get you know point point three or point four or something on the actual TI digits So this I think on both systems the these digits are showing up as harder Which I find sort of interesting because I think this is closer to I mean it s still read But I still think it s much closer to to what what people actually face when they are they are dealing with people saying digits over the telephone I mean I do not think I mean I m sure they would not release the numbers but I do not think that the the the companies that that do telephone speech get anything like point four percent on their digits I m I m I m sure they get I mean for one thing people do phone up who do not have Middle America accents and it s a we we it s it s it s US",The team was concerned that there was something wrong with the back-end of the model. The professor was insistent that the problem was probably with the lack of data. The team also speculated that their data was more challenging. "Professor A: So I th I think that the But that s that s using a a pretty huge amount of data mostly not digits of course but but then again Well In fact mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas in this case we are just using digits for training the H M Did anybody mention about whether the the SRI system is a is is doing the digits the wor as a word model or as a sub s sub phone states ? PhD E: I guess it s it s allophone models I think so because it s their very d huge their huge system And But So There is one difference Well the SRI system the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation So there is It s their complete system and including on line unsupervised adaptation And if you do not use adaptation the error rate is around fifty percent worse I think if I remember Professor A: It s tha it s that much huh ? PhD E: Nnn It s It s quite significant Professor A: But but what what I think I would be interested to do given that is that we we should take I guess that somebody s going to do this right ? is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system right ? PhD E: We can do something like that But But I guess the main point is the data because I am not sure Our back end is is fairly simple but until now well the attempts to improve it or have fail Ah well I mean what Chuck tried to to to do Professor A: but he s doing it with the same data right ? I mean so to So there s there s there s two things being affected I mean One is that that you know there s something simple that s wrong with the back end We ve been playing a number of states I I do not know if he got to the point of playing with the number of Gaussians yet but but you know But so far he had not gotten any big improvement but that s all with the same amount of data which is pretty small PhD E: Mmm So we could retrain some of these tandem on on huge Professor A: Well you could do that but I m saying even with it not with that part not retrained just just using having the H M Ms much better H M PhD E: Ah Just f for the HMM models","The professor thought that they were constrained by the shortage of data in the backend. Bigger companies had massive amounts of data to train their models. He recalled that they had been playing with the states in the back-end, but the results had not been too fruitful." "PhD E: But what would be interesting to see also is what what perhaps it s not related the amount of data but the recording conditions I do not know Because it s probably not a problem of noise because our features are supposed to be robust to noise It s not a problem of channel because there is normalization with respect to the channel So Professor A: I I I m sorry What what is the problem that you are trying to explain ? PhD E: The the fact that the result with the tandem and Aurora system are so much worse Professor A: That the Oh So much worse ? Oh I but I m I m almost certain that it it I mean that it has to do with the amount of training data It it s it s orders of magnitude off PhD E: but but we train only on digits and it s it s a digit task so Well Professor A: But but having a huge If if you look at what commercial places do they use a huge amount of data This is a modest amount of data So I mean ordinarily you would say `` well given that you have enough occurrences of the digits you can just train with digits rather than with you know `` But the thing is if you have a huge in other words do word models But if you have a huge amount of data then you are going to have many occurrences of similar allophones And that s just a huge amount of training for it So it s I I think it has to be that because as you say this is you know this is near microphone it s really pretty clean data Now some of it could be the fact that let s see in the in these multi train things did we include noisy data in the training ? I mean that could be hurting us actually for the clean case PhD E: Well actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are are better than the multi train Professor A: Cuz this is clean data and so that s not too surprising PhD E: Well o I guess what I meant is that well let s say if we if we add enough data to train on the on the Meeting Recorder digits I guess we could have better results than this",PhD E speculated that the recording problem probably does not have to do with noise. The difference in result with the tandem and Aurora system was too big. He suggested they could learn more by adding more data from Meeting Recorder digits. "Professor A: OK ? That s what s going on What s up with you ? Grad B: our t I went to talk with Mike Jordan this this week nonvocalsound and shared with him the ideas about extending the Larry Saul work and I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when we ve come up with these these feature detectors how do we how do we you know model the time series that that happens and and we talked a little bit about factorial H M Ms and how when you are doing inference or w when you are doing recognition there s like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for for these H M and the the great advantages that a lot of times the factorial H M Ms do not do not over alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on on the sub problems at hand so you can imagine five or so parallel features transitioning independently and then at the end you you couple these factorial H M Ms with with undirected links based on based on some more data So he he seemed he seemed like really interested in in in this and said said this is this is something very do able and can learn a lot and I ve just been continue reading about certain things thinking of maybe using m modulation spectrum stuff to as features also in the in the sub bands because it seems like the modulation spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of of certain words and stuff So Just that s about it Grad C: OK And so I ve been looking at Avendano s work and I will try to write up in my next stat status report a nice description of what he s doing but it s it s an approach to deal with reverberation or that the aspect of his work that I m interested in the idea is that normally an analysis frames are too short to encompass reverberation effects in full You miss most of the reverberation tail in a ten millisecond window and so you you would like it to be that the reverberation responses simply convolved in but it s not really with these ten millisecond frames cuz you j But if you take say a two millisecond window I m sorry a two second window then in a room like this most of the reverberation response is included in the window and the then it then things are l more linear It is it is more like the reverberation response is simply c convolved and and you can use channel normalization techniques like in his thesis he s assuming that the reverberation response is fixed He just does mean subtraction which is like removing the DC component of the modulation spectrum and that s supposed to d deal deal pretty well with the reverberation and the neat thing is you can not take these two second frames and feed them to a speech recognizer so he does this method training trading the the spectral resolution for time resolution and come ca synthesizes a new representation which is with say ten second frames but a lower s frequency resolution So I do not really know the theory I guess it s these are called `` time frequency representations `` and h he s making the the time sh finer grained and the frequency resolution less fine grained s so I m I guess my first stab actually in continuing his work is to re implement this this thing which changes the time and frequency resolutions cuz he does not have code for me So that that will take some reading about the theory I do not really know the theory Oh and another f first step is so the the way I want to extend his work is make it able to deal with a time varying reverberation response and we do not really know how fast the the reverberation response is varying the Meeting Recorder data so we we have this block least squares imp echo canceller implementation and I want to try finding the the response say between a near mike and the table mike for someone using the echo canceller and looking at the echo canceller taps and then see how fast that varies from block to block That should give an idea of how fast the reverberation response is changing Professor A: OK I think we are sort of done So let s read our digits and go home Grad C: S so y you do I think you read some of the the zeros as O s and some as zeros Is there a particular way we are supposed to read them ? PhD E: There are only zeros here Well Professor A: No `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` and `` zero `` are two ways that we say that digit PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the if we want to the the guy to say `` O `` or Professor A: No I mean I think people will do what they say I mean in digit recognition we ve done before you have you have two pronunciations for that value `` O `` and `` zero `` PhD E: But it s perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then if because here you only have zeros and and people pronounce `` O `` or zero Professor A: they they write down OH or they write down ZERO a and they and they each have their own pronunciation PhD E: but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the `` O `` Professor A: But people would not know what that wa I mean there is no convention for it See I mean you would have to tell them `` OK when we write this say it tha `` you know and you just They just want people to read the digits as you ordinarily would and and people say it different ways Grad C: OK Is this a change from the last batch of of forms ? Because in the last batch it was spelled out which one you should read Professor A: Yes That s right It was it was spelled out and they decided they wanted to get at more the way people would really say things That s also why they are they are bunched together in these different groups So so it s So it s it s Everything s fine OK Actually let me just s since since you brought it up I was just it was hard not to be self conscious about that when it after we since we just discussed it But I realized that that when I m talking on the phone certainly and and saying these numbers I almost always say zero And cuz because i it s two syllables It s it s more likely they will understand what I said So that that that s the habit I m in but some people say `` O `` and Grad B: I normally say `` O `` cuz it s easier to say Professor A: it s shorter So it s So So Now do not think about it","Grad B shared some of his progress on how the modulation spectrum could speak to the intelligibility of different linguistic units. Grad C was working on reverberation and how a model may deal with varying reverberation response. The discussion ended with different pronunciation, ""O"" and ""zero"" for the digit zero." Grad B: nonvocalsound and shared with him the ideas about extending the Larry Saul work and I asked him some questions about factorial H M so like later down the line when we ve come up with these these feature detectors how do we how do we you know model the time series that that happens and and we talked a little bit about factorial H M Ms and how when you are doing inference or w when you are doing recognition there s like simple Viterbi stuff that you can do for for these H M and the the great advantages that a lot of times the factorial H M Ms do not do not over alert the problem there they have a limited number of parameters and they focus directly on on the sub problems at hand so you can imagine five or so parallel features transitioning independently and then at the end you you couple these factorial H M Ms with with undirected links based on based on some more data So he he seemed he seemed like really interested in in in this and said said this is this is something very do able and can learn a lot and I ve just been continue reading about certain things thinking of maybe using m modulation spectrum stuff to as features also in the in the sub bands because it seems like the modulation spectrum tells you a lot about the intelligibility of of certain words and stuff So Just that s about it,Grad B was working with Larry Saul on factorial HMM and doing inference with them. Grad B thought that perhaps modulation spectrum could be used on features and sub-bands to advance this work. "PhD E: There are only zeros here Well Professor A: No `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` `` O `` and `` zero `` are two ways that we say that digit PhD E: Perhaps in the sheets there should be another sign for the if we want to the the guy to say `` O `` or Professor A: No I mean I think people will do what they say I mean in digit recognition we ve done before you have you have two pronunciations for that value `` O `` and `` zero `` PhD E: But it s perhaps more difficult for the people to prepare the database then if because here you only have zeros and and people pronounce `` O `` or zero Professor A: they they write down OH or they write down ZERO a and they and they each have their own pronunciation PhD E: but if the sh the sheet was prepared with a different sign for the `` O `` Professor A: But people would not know what that wa I mean there is no convention for it See I mean you would have to tell them `` OK when we write this say it tha ``","The professor pointed out that zero is said in two ways, ""O"" and ""Zero."" So, when recording digits, people are told which way to pronounce it." "Project Manager: I g Time is it ? Lovely to see you all again it is our conceptual design meeting and it is starting at approximately fourteen twenty five and so we have forty minutes for this one again and so we will go just after three of the clock our agenda we are going to do an opening I am going to review the minutes of the last meeting then we will have your three presentations and then we will have to make a decision on the remote control concepts and finally we will close So opening these are our minutes from r the functional design We decided our target group is the focus on who can afford it because we have international appeal and we said it is for all age groups different functions of it Our main objectives were simplicity and fashion And s in specific functions are something to keep the remote from getting lost large buttons for the essential functions a possibility for extra functions like a sliding a sliding piece and a longlife battery or a charging station now three presentations I would like to do it in this order first do the conceptual specification of components properties and materials and then the conceptual specification of user interface and finally trend watching Mm kay Function F eight it There we go Industrial Designer: Alright I am very excited by this one actually guys I had a lot of fun doing it Components design This is where you look at what does it take to make a remote control and what should we make our specific remote control out of So we need to examine each element separately but we are designing a full thing so you want to keep it integrated as a whole The main elements of remote controls in general and therefore ours as well are the case the buttons the circuit board with the chip and the battery These are all things that we had sort of addressed before but I am going to take each one a little bit separately here as we figure out what they should be made of and what they should look like The case the options that I have gotten from headquarters about what we can do there is there is the shape of a case we could do a flat sh a flat case a curved case or maybe even a double doublecurved case I have not seen any pictures of what this exactly looks like yet just keep that in mind but these are the options that we have from manufacturing and we can make our case out of plastic the m the main base will be plastic but we have all these sort of fashion and technological elements we can add in wood latex titanium rubber or other coloured types of plastic That would be our case buttons for buttons we have pushbuttons which is what Real Reaction uses the most often but we also have scror scroll wheels which can have integrated pushbuttons or we could go all hightech and have an L LCD screen circuit board and chip we can have a simple one a regular one or an advanced one depending on what our other needs are And then battery I think is where things get most exciting We are talking about longlife batteries here we can we can have your sort of basic double A batteries but we also have these options of using a kinetic battery like are used in hightech watches where you just have to move it a little bit to get it to power up so simple movements like pushing buttons would recharge the battery Or a solar battery although there are slight complications with solar batteries as in we can not use a latex case if we have a solar battery Or something they only described as the type of battery you find in torches from about fifty years ago flashlights Not quite sure what that is but that is the description that I received so that is what I am passing on to you So those are our options personal preferences that I was thinking through here is what we have been talking about all through fashion and simplicity So if we are going for fashion in our cases I think that what we are going to want to look at is a curved or a doublecurved case probably with a variety of design elements Maybe titanium maybe some wood We are going to have to investigate that better when I get specifics of the actual materials but that is sort of what I have in mind And we want to go for simplicity Probably pushbuttons but I am sort of intrigued by the idea of a scroll scroll wheel if anyone has anything any ideas on that ? I mean I know the iPods and things right now have touch scroll buttons which are exactly like what they are describing so that might be something we want to look into And I am really intrigued by the idea of a kinetic battery Solar I do not think would be such a good idea because how often are you sure that your remote control will get a certain amount of light But this idea of the kinetic that you do not have to replace and that a simple just shaking it around will make it work I think that that m would be a very interesting thing But I think we would also want to go for e a simple chip or regular chip to keep our costs down we really only need a regular or advanced chip t if we are going to start using an LCD So I think we want to be aware of not making things overly t technological if they do not need to be because that will keep our manufacturing price way down That is what I have for options I would appreciate anyones input but that is what I am seeing for the future of the the look of this thing Marketing: Is doublecurved like would be like two hands kind of thing ? Industrial Designer: I am not sure I have not received any specific Marketing: Because I am imagining like doublecurved is like you know like two sides that curve Industrial Designer: This is what I am sort of Marketing: and then like one curve would just be like a single verticalish kind of looking thing but I have no idea Industrial Designer: but I will let you know as soon as I get any pictures I know if we do have a doublecurved case it can not have any titanium in it But the titanium they were quite they are marketing quite hard to us as being used in the space programme so that could be quite interesting Project Manager: Mmhmm Just an interesting marketing kind of element Industrial Designer: Just all things to keep in mind That is about all I have to do guys I hope I did not go through that too quickly Project Manager: just a real quick question the weight of these different elements have you Industrial Designer: no idea no idea I am assuming that a kinetic battery is not going to take up that much weight and that a tita titanium is very light I know that is really basic I mean that is all I have gotten so far Alright ? Any other questions ? User Interface: Uhhuh Do not think so Industrial Designer: I have save this in the shared projects if anyone wants to look and I have c considerable notes on the topic as well if anyone needs any more information Project Manager: if you made notes yourself you can put those on our underneath our oh in your book then do not worry about that Industrial Designer: but if anyone has any specific questions do not hesitate to email me or something Alright ? I guess I can Project Manager: Kay now we are concepts concepts of user interface This ones so much tighter than the other one Nope There we go Here you are User Interface: Alright so I am going to describe the the concept of the user interface of this des device we have talked about the two essential properties of the user interface We want it to be simple and we want it to be fashionable other we have also got to remember that this is a device that serves as a useful purpose we want people to be able to use it s as a remote control so we need to determine what the essential functions of the d of the device are and make sure that we include that we have included all of those and that we actually end up with a device that is going to be useful to people We have a number of different choices for a design concept and s that is that is something that that I will show you some examples of but essentially we need to choose how how is this device going to work how how what kind of model is there going to be for user interaction with this device once we have chosen a a concept for it we can then design the features around the concept making sure that we get all the essential functions in the device and the extra functions and the more advanced features And of course we also have to make it look cool that is what we do not want M we do not want lots of buttons complicated features We want something that looks nice and simple Here is a a fairly simple device This is an an iPod from Apple I think the main thing to notice about it is it just has four buttons It is very minimalistic in its design you use these four buttons to m to move around a range of settings on the small LCD screen the thing I like about this is that it is very very quick to access the main features you can just about make out that the button three buttons are previous track next track and play pause They are the main the main features of the iPod the things you will use a all the time then if you want to do anything more advanced you go into the little menu on the LCD screen and you use the buttons just to scroll around and and find the more advanced features that you want So I think that is that is a good a good kind of model that we could have here is a another example This is it is an interesting idea and I think i it looks pretty cool it is certainly got novelty value it is nice and colourful it is nice and bright it is also something that you can kind of feel your way around The buttons are are different shapes and and you can sort of if you are watching TV in the dark or whatever you can work out which buttons which and basically it is ith it is fun So I I like I like this idea of just having buttons for the features that you use most often So you would need a few buttons to select your favourite channels I mean most people when they watch TV they have two hundred and fifty channels on their TV and they watch of bout four of them at the most So you have buttons for your favourite channel changing the volume which is something you do all the time when you are watching TV and the button to switch it off in case you get bored other features things like adjusting the brightness tuning the TV I do not know what else you do with a TV but these are these are all necessary functions you can not have a t there is no point having a television that you can not tune or that you can not set the contrast so we need to find a way of including these somehow and one other suggestions I would make is to in is to include in a menu system a bit like on the iPod So we would either have a small LCD display on the device itself or have a dis a menu display that comes up on your television and can b be controlled through the device And that would allow you to access access the advanced features whilst keeping a very small and simple set of buttons for the features that you use most often Industrial Designer: So you would be advocating an LCD then ? User Interface: I think that is that is one way to go yes I mean there are there are advantages and disadvantages if you if you have an LCD display it is it is nice because it is it it let us you just sort of sit there and st and control your television from your armchair There are disadvantages an an LCD display would have to be quite small because we are we are I well we are I assume we are going to be making quite a small device it would also have to have a kind of backlighting in it because you ten you tend to watch TV in the dark but you need to be able to see your LDD LCD display The alternative is to have a an onscreen display on your television that you control through your remote control a bit like a bit like how they have these digital boxes where you you press the buttons and it comes up with your this thing of watch lo what is on each channel I mean that that is also a good idea It is it can it does have it is problems as well if you have got a small TV and you are sitting on the other side of a room it is hard to read the little text that comes up but that is a that is a design decision that we can make Project Manager: I do think that one of the important features for a remote is seeing a menu and seeing what is on like favourite channels is is applicable but I think th that you do need to have some kind of function where it is you have t you can see the title of the show or possibly a description of it Industrial Designer: Well Are you are you tak Project Manager: Like I I know I use that often enough Marketing: Wait but is that separate from what he was saying ? Project Manager: if it if it was a L LCD on th on the remote I do not know that you could f that you would be able to see a Industrial Designer: No I think I think we are talking menu like contrast and tuning the VCR or something if I have understood you correctly rather than menu as what is on User Interface: that that would be one of the features yes Project Manager: Because that would be more specifically a digital box User Interface: But it is it is it is something to bear in mind is that if we put a display on the remote control the c communication is one way so you can not have the televisions and information back to the remote control at least I do not think you can Project Manager: now we are moving on to market Marketing Marketing: Should I plug that in ? User Interface: Is that going on ? Marketing: Maybe it is just not User Interface: that should be alright actually Marketing: Is it on ? Ri What F do you have to press five ? I just keep pressing lots of them Well I do not know how relevant all of this going to be If anything the that they gave me Project Manager: Oops it is not plugged in quite in well enough Marketing: Oh so we are going to look a little bit at trend watching Basically I was given an executive summary that was a market investigation on remote controls that was recently conducted and then also some fashion watchers in Paris and Milan commented on some things that are going to be going on this year So first they had people they ranked the important aspects of r remote controls and right now i d they are saying that currently there is a functional look and feel preference but that really over the next year it it that is going to be switching to fancy look and feel remotes so that just goes back to the whole desire of our c Real Reaction company wanting to focus on fashion and so even though we are stressing when we are talking we have all been talking about this like simplicity and easy to use idea they are sort of wanting us to remember that the number one thing for everyone is that it is fancy look and feel And as these are ranked the top one is doubly important to the second one which is doubly important to the third one so just to take that weight into account The second thing that was mentioned as important was the technological innovations That would be like if we use something like the space material or the LCD screen things like that And then ease of use was the third most important whi so really no matter what we need to focus the most on fancy look and feel according to this I do not know how much we agree with that And then the fashion watch talks about that this years top trend for clothes shoes and furniture is fruits and vegetables and tha that there is a preference for spongy tight material And so that brings us to my personal preferences Who wants a spongy remote or one with fruit and vegetable padding Personally I do not really think that I want one that is going to go out of style or go stale excuse the pun in a year so even though this is coming from us as you know trend watch market research I do not know how much of it we necessarily want to take away Also considering that the d research b has been carried out by Real Reaction I am a little hesitant as to like how these questions may have been worded and if necessarily this whole fashion to technology y edas ease of use is necessarily the right ranking Personally like I might reverse it but if we are working for this company then I guess no matter what we have to stress fashion the most But it does not necessarily need to be a spongy material Industrial Designer: That there is all kinds of scope for imagination in that one though Marketing: I do not have a lot of notes to share if you want them that pretty much sums it up So Project Manager: do we have any s some questions for this let us see Marketing: what can I possibly enlighten on ? Project Manager: do you have any ideas how to possibly use these ? how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or or the spongy material at all ? Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote ? It would be easier on the hands Industrial Designer: If it is latex if it is latexy Project Manager: It is kind of and then it we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that User Interface: A kind of thing that Project Manager: I do not know But Industrial Designer: An I if th my understanding of a latex case is that it is in fact hard to protect stuff inside but that it is covered with the latex which is spongier and softer on your hands It is there is something to be said I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about not wanting it to R R repetitive stress injuries and things Marketing: so something m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable I mean we do not we do not we do not want to go spongy maybe Marketing: grip I am thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands you know i and I think I am envisioning more like you know the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle so that it does not hurt when you are sitting down for a long time like I am imagining that sort of thing I do not know what th that materials called Industrial Designer: I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it is that seems doable could we go in fruit and vegetable colours ? We could colourcoordinate them Project Manager: F for sure or maybe like couple main ones being like I do not know lemons or strawberries or something Industrial Designer: The buttons could be fruitshaped Project Manager: Could they be smelly ? User Interface: I Is it supposed to be shaped like a vegetable ? like I do not know like carrots or something Industrial Designer: it is quite easy to s shape thing like carrot Or maybe the buttons could be shaped like different fruits Project Manager: that is what I was thinking of Marketing: What about the idea of like a round remote ? Instead of like a vertical up and down one Like in terms of holding it Like that is a f shape of a fruit User Interface: Kind of like a potato Industrial Designer: It would be harder to f bu buttons I think Project Manager: would you think you you do you think you would be able to hold it ? Marketing: Just to tie it in a little Project Manager: Because I think the reason they are long is Industrial Designer: It would be harder to press button User Interface: Depends When you when you use a remote do you press the buttons with your thumb usually ? Or your fingers ? Project Manager: I usually hold it in one hand Maybe User Interface: Or maybe you want something that is shaped like a mobile phone so you you hold it in one hand and you press the buttons with your thumb Project Manager: But then the buttons would have to be very small Industrial Designer: that is ts how I tend to do it Project Manager: Do not you think ? Marketing: because otherwise your fingers can not move around Project Manager: But I mean in order to get to all of them They would have to be within a certain amount of space with each other User Interface: But if you have only got like four or five buttons anyway then it is it is not so much a problem perhaps Industrial Designer: Right I When I am when I am pressing buttons on my iPod that is how I do it hold it and press the four User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Industrial Designer: or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel User Interface: and And you find that works quite well ? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod User Interface: The button on an iPod is it what is it is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing ? Project Manager: It is a scroll it is a wheel Marketing: because there is one in the middle Industrial Designer: it would I mean each version of it has been a little bit different Project Manager: The one I have does not have the four on i like around it I do not think Industrial Designer: but Oh you had one of the inbetween ones when they were not doing that anymore Ts and you press the centre button that is that is your allpurpose select button right there User Interface: Oh I see right Oh Industrial Designer: Since it is the one in the centre that is not marked User Interface: that is quite a good design Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is because like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume Like just the idea of like those so few buttons for main things but then how you could go back to the menu and like I do not know if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual TV I kind of am wanting to say on the TV because if you are changing the brightness do not you want to see it happening kind of ? And then you could still have that available Industrial Designer: I think an LCD screen might be good in theory but not as useful in practice User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice Also z because you would be z looking down at the LCD screen than back up at your TV and people do not want to do that","The first presentation mainly covered component design. Industrial Designer introduced what should be the case, the buttons, the circuit board with the chip and the battery made of and what they should look like. The second presentation was about properties and materials. User Interface advocated an LCD with backlighting in a small device. The third presentation was trend watching given by Marketing. So Marketing suggested space materials or the LCD screen because they stressed fashion, simplicity and technology innovation. Also, Marketing didn't suggest that spongy material was necessary." "Project Manager: do you have any ideas how to possibly use these ? how to how to use a fruit or vegetable or or the spongy material at all ? Like could we make a s like could we make a spongy remote ? It would be easier on the hands Industrial Designer: If it is latex if it is latexy Project Manager: It is kind of and then it we would have to find a way to protect like the chip and all that User Interface: A kind of thing that Project Manager: I do not know But Industrial Designer: An I if th my understanding of a latex case is that it is in fact hard to protect stuff inside but that it is covered with the latex which is spongier and softer on your hands It is there is something to be said I mean we we got that thing earlier from you about not wanting it to R R repetitive stress injuries and things Marketing: so something m m instead of a necess Industrial Designer: something grippable I mean we do not we do not we do not want to go spongy maybe Marketing: grip I am thinking grip more than like sinking into your hands you know i and I think I am envisioning more like you know the material that you have when you sit on like a bicycle so that it does not hurt when you are sitting down for a long time like I am imagining that sort of thing I do not know what th that materials called Industrial Designer: I think that given the list of materials I w I was forwarded it is that seems doable could we go in fruit and vegetable colours ? We could colourcoordinate them","Project Manager thought a spongy remote would be easier on the hands, while Industrial Designer thought a latex case was hard to protect the stuff inside. Due to the discussion about repetitive stress injuries mentioned before, they didn't want to go for the spongy remote. Marketing supplemented that grippable thing was more than like sinking into the hands, so Marketing preferred the material like the one people have when sitting on a bicycle." "User Interface: But if you have only got like four or five buttons anyway then it is it is not so much a problem perhaps Industrial Designer: Right I When I am when I am pressing buttons on my iPod that is how I do it hold it and press the four User Interface: So you hold it in one hand and you press you press the buttons with your thumb Industrial Designer: or in and use my thumb or my pointer finger on the touch scroll wheel User Interface: and And you find that works quite well ? Marketing: I love the idea of the wheel like the iPod User Interface: The button on an iPod is it what is it is it just four buttons or is it li more like a scroll thing ? Project Manager: It is a scroll it is a wheel Marketing: because there is one in the middle Industrial Designer: it would I mean each version of it has been a little bit different Project Manager: The one I have does not have the four on i like around it I do not think Industrial Designer: but Oh you had one of the inbetween ones when they were not doing that anymore Ts and you press the centre button that is that is your allpurpose select button right there User Interface: Oh I see right Oh Industrial Designer: Since it is the one in the centre that is not marked User Interface: that is quite a good design Marketing: I think why it would be good for us is because like you could have the same wheel sort of effect for like channel flipping and then the other one could be like for volume Like just the idea of like those so few buttons for main things but then how you could go back to the menu and like I do not know if we would want it on the screen there or on the actual TV I kind of am wanting to say on the TV because if you are changing the brightness do not you want to see it happening kind of ? And then you could still have that available Industrial Designer: I think an LCD screen might be good in theory but not as useful in practice User Interface: I think it could be difficult in practice Also z because you would be z looking down at the LCD screen than back up at your TV and people do not want to do that","When the group was discussing the four or five buttons around the scroll wheels, Marketing mentioned how to achieve going back to the menu with few buttons for main things if someone was changing the brightness. So User Interface thought that LCD screens might be a good theory, but not as useful in practice because people would not want to look down at the LCD screen and then back up at the television." "Project Manager: we have we have about fifteen minutes left Industrial Designer: Oh we probably have to get going do not we ? Project Manager: so I am I am going to continue with my pres presentation I have one more slide before we close but in that slide is when we need to make decisions about this these kinds of things so I will just bring that up and show you all Industrial Designer: Could Could we could we have changeable covers like for your mobile ? In different fruit and vegetable colours Marketing: If I get any more information of fruits and vegetables I will let you know User Interface: Like to make it different fruits Project Manager: and then like the the covers could be spongy latex wherea but the actual model could be titanium Industrial Designer: And you could coordinate with your house or whatever All these options User Interface: I think maybe th the packaging it should be like a lemon and the the packaging is like the peel So instead of opening the box you just kind of peel it and the remote controls inside Marketing: there we go The iPod packaging is me like was so that was like half the fun It is like the way it all comes all cute Project Manager: components concept Energy chip on print Industrial Designer: Right I had sort of skipped over that hoping it would not get be necessary but Project Manager: That is th th this is the agenda they gave me So can you just explain what that is real quick ? Industrial Designer: Alright so decisions what the deci decisions on energy I am thinking is based on the battery I do not know what do people think about this kinetic battery idea ? Project Manager: I think it is awesome I think it is really cool Marketing: I mean it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries User Interface: I think it is good as as long as we consider the the cost and the how reliable it is Industrial Designer: Right I have not gotten any User Interface: but as far as I know the technology is good Industrial Designer: any more information on cost other than it is more expensive than a regular battery but but if we are using a an i a cheaper chip then it will even out I think circuit boards I got a whole bunch of information on how circuit boards are produced They are they are thin fibreglass with copper wires etched on to them and di I think they are quite easily printed on by machine which is chip on print is where the machine prints on the wires and solders it all together for us I do not really know what to tell you as far as decisions I was not really given any options I was just given that this is how they are done I can not can not really tell you I can I can tell you a whole lot about how it works But I do not know any decisions on Project Manager: If they are if they are really options User Interface: Al all circuit boards are pretty much the same I think it is fairly fairly standard Project Manager: then we will move on to the case oh bu I guess maybe if we decided on like a simple a regular or an advanced chip maybe Industrial Designer: Right Well here is the here is the thing on the chips that I that I got simple regular advanced chip on print The chip on print includes an infrared sensor so we do not have to worry about that kay the pushbutton if we are going to have pushbuttons they require a simple chip but a scroll wheel requires a regular chip and an LCD requires advanced Do we want a scroll wheel or do we just want pushbuttons ? User Interface: I do not think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel I mean it might be nice for changing the volume Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume but I do not know how useful it would be for changing the channel Because you do not have control over numbers User Interface: I do not think it would really work you really need buttons for changing a channel Industrial Designer: th it would be it would be handy for going through if there was an onscreen menu of your channel choices than you can scroll down on the scroll Marketing: But if you c if you could scroll through the channels and then the volume would just be Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting so Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way forward and backward as I am just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking And otherwise no matter how may buttons we have we are going to have like you know black with red sticking out and th no it is going to inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up Project Manager: So have a scroll for volume ? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions ? When you get on the onscreen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus User Interface: I think I think a scroll wheel would be nice but it is not necessary Industrial Designer: Right So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip depending and maybe we could table that decision for later Project Manager: I think w well I think when we go on to the une userface we are going to have to decide the interface we are going to have to decide whether we are going to have a scroll or not Industrial Designer: Well let us think about that while we talk about the case I am kind of liking the idea of latex if if spongy is the in thing Project Manager: I am a little I am a little hesitant about it because I am worried about protecting the stuff on the inside Marketing: Oh could it be hard and then something around it ? Project Manager: I would be more with like a titanium actual thing and then maybe like a mobile phone kind of thing Industrial Designer: N oh wha what I have what I have seen just not related to this but of latex cases before is that there is like a hard plastic inside and it is just covered with the latex Not too thick a layer of latex just enough to be grippable like bike handles or or anything that you have seen like that The inside is hard I do not think we need to worry about protecting the circuit board I think that that is done for us Project Manager: So we we do want latex Latex and probably in colours maybe fruity vegetable colours Fruity colours let us go to the ufe user interface then we will come back to the chip I suppose Industrial Designer: Oh and we want a curved case ? Or a doublecurved ? Project Manager: Well we do not really know what the difference is right ? Marketing: I am thinking curved of some sort Industrial Designer: We do not really know what the difference Project Manager: interface the type and the supplements So push or scroll right ? Or both ? User Interface: Yep And I think if we want to keep our costs down we should just go for pushbuttons because then we can have a a simple chip and it is simpler it is it is cheaper to make pushbuttons than it is a scroll button So in terms of in terms of economics it is probably better to have pushbuttons Project Manager: Mmhmm And if we had a sc an onscreen kind of thing that you could scroll through like you can use your buttons to scroll through things User Interface: it is it is it is fairly simple Project Manager: I think that For channel surfing I think a scroll an actual like an iPods kind of scroll thing would be too fast I do not know Industrial Designer: I say pushbuttons at least unless we get any information but I have no idea how much more expensive a scroll wheel is than than a pushbutton but it is got to be some more expensive so I think it might be better to put our money into the stuff like the kinetic battery and the cool case Project Manager: Is that with you ? Marketing: And let us like see if we get anything else I mean I am not like hardsold on the scroll wheel it is more just to give it a different kind of look but if it is going to be in a latex type thing and that is going to look cool then that is probably going to have a bigger impact than the scroll wheel Project Manager: It might be cool enough so we are going to go with type pushbuttons and then supplements how are we going to do that ? User Interface: what do you mean by supplements exactly ? Project Manager: I assume that is what else we are going to like h ha the the additional buttons we can use So we are going to have like a menu button so that we can access onscreen things then ? so we are doing an onscreen menu that we can scroll through Industrial Designer: So what are what are our buttons going to be ? User Interface: volume favourite channels and menu Industrial Designer: So like one through five or Marketing: Like a radio type sorta situation ? User Interface: about like a bit like radio presets Project Manager: Preset channels and then we are going to need numbers one through zero right ? User Interface: we would not even need the numbers I think maybe numbers seems is kind of oldfashioned Project Manager: Well but in order to preset a cha oh I guess you can just hold it down when you get to one when you are scrolling through User Interface: and you need some kind of I do not know sort of up down kind of button but the volume control could double for that for example Project Manager: Mmhmm finishing the meeting now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes you each have things to do look and feel design user interface design product evaluation and you two are going to work together on a prototype using modelling clay You will get specific instructions from your personal coach did we decide on a chip ? Let us go with a simple chip ? We are done Thank you everyone Oh I di these are already in our shared folder so User Interface: Clay I was not expecting that","Firstly, the group discussed whether they could have changeable covers of different fruit and vegetable colours. Secondly, they had a discussion on the energy, the case and the chip. Then, group mates decided to have latex in fruity colours, a chip, a menu button to scroll as well as on-off buttons." "Project Manager: components concept Energy chip on print Industrial Designer: Right I had sort of skipped over that hoping it would not get be necessary but Project Manager: That is th th this is the agenda they gave me So can you just explain what that is real quick ? Industrial Designer: Alright so decisions what the deci decisions on energy I am thinking is based on the battery I do not know what do people think about this kinetic battery idea ? Project Manager: I think it is awesome I think it is really cool Marketing: I mean it would t totally take care of our problem of not wanting to change batteries User Interface: I think it is good as as long as we consider the the cost and the how reliable it is Industrial Designer: Right I have not gotten any User Interface: but as far as I know the technology is good Industrial Designer: any more information on cost other than it is more expensive than a regular battery but but if we are using a an i a cheaper chip then it will even out I think","Group mates agreed that the kinetic battery was awesome as long as they considered the cost and the reliability because it was more expensive than a regular battery. Also, groupmates suggested if they could use a cheaper chip, then they could even out the cost of this good kinetic battery technology." "User Interface: I do not think we ne really need the scroll whe wheel I mean it might be nice for changing the volume Project Manager: It would be nice for changing the volume but I do not know how useful it would be for changing the channel Because you do not have control over numbers User Interface: I do not think it would really work you really need buttons for changing a channel Industrial Designer: th it would be it would be handy for going through if there was an onscreen menu of your channel choices than you can scroll down on the scroll Marketing: But if you c if you could scroll through the channels and then the volume would just be Project Manager: We have five minutes left for the meeting so Marketing: and the volume would just be like the same way forward and backward as I am just thinking like it would make it much like sleeker sort of looking And otherwise no matter how may buttons we have we are going to have like you know black with red sticking out and th no it is going to inevitably sort of start looking like those group of sort of ugly ones that we saw stacked up Project Manager: So have a scroll for volume ? Industrial Designer: F or for all those secret functions ? When you get on the onscreen menu of all your functions that your remote could do for you without the buttons and you could have a scroll wheel to go through those menus User Interface: I think I think a scroll wheel would be nice but it is not necessary Industrial Designer: Right So we could either go with a simple or a regular chip depending and maybe we could table that decision for later Project Manager: I think w well I think when we go on to the une userface we are going to have to decide the interface we are going to have to decide whether we are going to have a scroll or not Industrial Designer: Well let us think about that while we talk about the case","When the group was talking about the scroll wheel could be for changing the volume, User Interface thought it would not work for changing the channel because they really need buttons for changing a channel. So User Interface suggested the group could make a decision on it while they talked about the case." "User Interface: Project Manager I have something to tell you I have a little problems with my laptop And s s s so I had a little less time to complete No a little problem big problem I just thought Marketing: What was it problem ? User Interface: it did not work anymore Marketing: You are our Project Manager Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meeting hello again it is the same as the last time also this time there will be three presentations And we must reach a decision on the remote control concepts and at the end I when I finish it off I have some input from a master class I visited information The the the the the concepts on we where we must reach a decision on our from are of two sorts Components concepts and user interface concepts the first one is really about the the the the the total package with Well we have decided to do a do the with a touchscreen that must be a case around it so it will not be as breakable how how about the energy ? Can you can you reload it or just have batteries which you must exchange ? the user interface concept with the type and the the supplements So where to put what button And I would say Jans can you begin ? At the end I will take notes and at the end of the minutes will be at the shared folder Industrial Designer: let me see I think it is this one Ha Right well I will be talking about the components what I did was I reviewed previously used items by two two different age groups below forty five and above And I just watch what the differences are and I checked well what what d do we want and how can we d aim a at the target group Well what I found was that a senior Ye Ah it is it is They well they like more the they like the traditional materials like wood and and such more And they like straightforward shapes they they they they like luxurious styles where whereas the young and dynamic they like a more soft materials Think of the Teletubbies for instance soft and fluffy and colourful and Well shapes are curved and round Y y you get the picture And they like sports and gaming and that gives them the vitality so w well firs Project Manager: a soft material for a remote control ? Industrial Designer: No I will I will get to that well f first off let us start start with the energy W I I had a choice between a few different sources But the two basic sources that I found were the best possible were the battery versus kinetic kinetic that is when you move something then it gets energy I figured well that is ki kind of hightech when when you have a remote control that well when you pick it up it has power That would be actually very nice I figured Well we could also use a battery that is a bit Marketing: but when the power gets low you have to shake it or something ? Industrial Designer: you c just you have to shake it around a little bit And then then it d then it has some more energy Well y you could just go for a battery Or you can go for both ? User Interface: Oh have you considered the option of using a solar panel ? Industrial Designer: I actually did But the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l light Well sunlight preferably and you you could you could use normal light but you would not get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery or something for ultimate b n use of solar panels you could actually use you could use solar panels but you ha you would have to implement them into the remote control leaving you a bit less space for the interface Marketing: Mm It is too less space Industrial Designer: So so i i it it wo what is actually I I c just in f I have figured it out that well seeing that you will always be within the l distance of TV and the from TV there comes a a a whole bunch of light So it would actually power itself from a TV But well you just take up all the space and you would not have the full amount of power actually used Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic ? Industrial Designer: So I I prefer kinetic because it is well the costs are not that much higher and ju just a bit more hightech than than a normal battery Project Manager: but you do not move a a remote control too much Industrial Designer: I mean if No but d Well you pick it up and you press buttons and y well you Project Manager: And that is enough to to keep the energy level Industrial Designer: And it it if it is not you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again But what l what Jarek said you could you could use a battery that you would just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves And for rest you would just add juice on the battery Marketing: And when the battery does not work I usually shake it too So Like slamming on it It is exactly the same Industrial Designer: f furthermore you you we checked the cases We have different options concerning the cases You ha I you sim you simply add a basic standard model it was kind of square and I figured that is a bit boring So you you we could go for the single curved or the double curved single curve it is just a well you know it is just a nice curve Or but but you could go in a in an double curves And that is like several different dimensions That gives you an whole new effec that gives you a younger and more hightech look I f I figured But that we will discuss later Marketing: But are you going to draw it ? Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in threeD ? Marketing: I c I can not imagine Industrial Designer: I ca I ca I could I could show you I could show you Marketing: I can not imagine how how how it looks like Industrial Designer: Well let us say y you Let us say that is your standard That is a bit your d standard design But you could actually go like something like this And then in threeD effect you could go So y you you just this is a this bit difficulty in I did not take a major in art So But but you could have a whole new the back back the the the depth you could you could just play around a bit with You you do not have to use standard you could y It leaves more space for creativity that might be an idea but just a Well furthermore well plastic versus rubber ? You We could choose what what is better plastic or rubber I I ch prefer rubber because it feels it is soft and it is that I like soft Project Manager: That is the material the younger people want are not it ? Industrial Designer: I mean plastic is Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it like plastic Your your I usually associate plastic with something that is cheap that is maybe just me but we could oh talk about it later furthermore buttons traditional or a touch screen Well we discussed it in a previous meeting so I figured I will just leave it at the LCD And chip set well if we are going to use traditional buttons we could go with a simple chip set But if we decide to go on a n LCD screen we would use an we have to use an a advanced chip set And that would bring the necessary costs with with it So that is something we th have to keep in mind If it is not manageable budgetwise we would have to go over to to sim to simple buttons Marketing: Well I think we are going to sell tell ten millions of them So I bet a big company in Korea or Taiwan like Samsung can give us a big discount on the chips so YOU usually chips are are not more expensive than one dollar Industrial Designer: probably but But that is that is Marketing: So That that should not be a real issue I think Industrial Designer: That should not should not be that big a issue I will I will I will just add I put a big summary here so we could discuss it a bit what i what are your ideas concerning battery versus kinetic ? User Interface: I think you should use kinetic as a backup Industrial Designer: you you you should we should A combination you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic When you pick it up it charges up Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko Industrial Designer: What what do you think ? Project Manager: I I I would prefer both too Industrial Designer: well that would bring the m m some more costs but I mean the That is the Project Managers problem User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and Industrial Designer: why does not And then we have singlecurved versus doublecurved User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to to cope with that Industrial Designer: That No we will we will just wait and plastic versus rubber Any ideas ? User Interface: is not possible to make combination with kind of rubber is or bendable remotes where you have got a Or do you think it Industrial Designer: I figured it will be m rather than hard Nah rubber c this is a casing Rubber casing because well if you use an d a touchscreen it is just a casing around it So you could go for plastic but I figured User Interface: well d Maybe I can ask it right now the question that I have Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber User Interface: is it possible of is it necessary to make a touchscreen square ? It is not I think ? Industrial Designer: Well m I do not know No Marketing: Well I think that touchscreens are generally square But it is the case you put around it that makes the shape User Interface: We are We put fashion in electronics Marketing: ? but if you have a square LCD screen and you put a case around it that has like bulbs or that that covers part of the LCD screen Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem User Interface: Oh I I get it Marketing: That is it is custom customisable and Industrial Designer: So mm so so what are the opinions ? rubber or plastic ? I I I prefer rubber You sure ? You you you seemed to hesitate a bit User Interface: Well as long a as long as it is it is it is firm and you do not it is not bendable or something I th I think that goes too far Industrial Designer: it it should not it should not flop over when you hold it in your hand No that that that that is going to The the chip set will hold it firm in place and and and and a LCD screen also User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor Industrial Designer: it m might it might tra traditional versus LCD well I figured we we all set on that And then also the simple versus advanced Well I figure if we go for L LCD we we should have the advanced So that should not be a problem Marketing: Can I do my thing ? I went to Paris and Milan for some trendwatching For marketing Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan In Paris and Milan we asked different people differing in age and in income the amount of money to spend what they like in design and material nowadays Findings Our main audience so that is people below forty prefer the following At first the colours of fruit Very basic colours like Janus explained fresh colours green red strawberry red yellow banana yellow considering material They like spongy material Like a s soft material Janus m mentioned it also I think he did some some findings himself You wer you were not in Paris ? Like this Like big g flashy colours Fresh It is nice I think our secondary audience people above forty a forty years in age they like the dark traditional colours materials like wood that Project Manager: but wood is not a not a material you which you build a a remote control of Industrial Designer: Well you could You you could Marketing: No n j just j just a w No but just just a wooden look Project Manager: Case Oh a wooden look Marketing: Like you have those fake fake panels on the floor The that is not wood anyway but ? But that is our secondary audience So we decided to take mm the people below forty So that this does not apply Kay the third there are some overall thoughts about new remote controls They have to look fancy they should be technological in innovative That means there have to be fancy things in and easy to use But that is common My personal preferences We have to aim at a mu at the main audience And therefore use fresh colours Project Manager: Would you prefer that you can choose the colour of your remote control or Marketing: I will I will come to that in a second point Here think about removable covers as seen in mobile telephon telephone market To customise your own remote control Like the Nokia the removable covers just put a red on it and go to the shop and buy a green one a third material being used could well be stuff like rubber two advantages it fits within the current market trends And it adds safety to your remote when you drop it So to come back to your question I think and the people in Milan and Paris also think that the rubber should be pretty hard Like seen on regular mobile phones Actually they have a lot in common The phones and the Industrial Designer: Well I actually saw a phone that you could use as a remote so Project Manager: Maybe you could use your remote as a phone There are numbers on it so Industrial Designer: That might be a next step Marketing: in my second sheet of personal preferences we have to reconsider the speech function recognition it is very innovative Innovative Project Manager: So that you say SPSS and it goes to Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies like speak speech recognition and stuff But we have to keep the cost in in mind but it it it can be very expensive building games like Snake or Tetris to amuse the younger users also the link with mobile phones Project Manager: but you do not use that th games when you watching television I think Marketing: No but No But you do not use games when you are d when you are making a telephone call It is just the same User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program you can take the remote and do something else Marketing: When you are at college Project Manager: You take your remote control with you Industrial Designer: You take your remote with you to school Marketing: No You al you also take t you take your IPac and go play games Well I do that but and And third I stick with it the login functionality with the slogan take parental control to a new dimension User Interface: In the interface contents Well that is a just simple PowerPoint mockup I want to m make it more as dynamic for you so I will draw there But the main concept is take one big touch screen always display the primary buttons clear and visible Maybe even li like this with you uses of a lot of space And make the menu structure changeable So if you press system that is well m multiple system options can maybe five or ten or or one can fit in Or maybe even a step further when you want to t have some other options that are not programmable with one horizontal button And other buttons can may be displayed here if that is necessary And well how do do we want to look at f Does a remote look Well it is you have got to hold it in one hand So the middle like all remotes have to be in a little bit small so you can put it in inside your hands And some remotes you can use with your thumb But I think that is too difficult for this one So you can make it s a little broader And here ? And maybe use your thumb on the on the main buttons And use your other hands on the menu structure So here are going to be the program buttons One two three four et cetera And the the volume control and program control maybe And down here I added this could be one big LCD the menu structure So you can use it in in this way One thing you have got to keep in mind keep the remote clear of too much functions at the same time know that if you are changing the menu structure here And well I still believe you should keep displaying the buttons But if you are programming the colour of the TV do not display twenty other options that are possible Just keep it as simple as as possible And do not use too many levels Do not have to select a screen first and then brightness and then colour and unplus and push plus twenty times But just the just in one button if possible And well you kn you all know the TV levels channel one two And when you get to n to to ten ye and want to go back well you have a problem Just m most most modern TVs you you press one zero and it goes to ten And else to one and through after that So the s a button less And things like teletext put them in the menu Things like Marketing: what do you think about a backandforth comeup button ? User Interface: w I I find I must trying to tell it Marketing: L like in internet explorer User Interface: Is volume plus and minus ? And this is program plus and minus Marketing: but does it that is for going from four to five But if you go from two to eight and you want User Interface: Or if you are watching Studio Sports on on seventeen and your wife is watching some soap on two Marketing: and on two That you can switch switch easy User Interface: Well yes I think that is a good idea But well m my preference would to be put it in the menu structure And if you are using that button a lot of times well of course the menu will still be displayed on the screen You just do not have to play games inbetween But if you are really switching between two channels you will not have time to d use the other options","Firstly, Industrial Designer presented components based on the target age group's preference for stylish and material, including energy, chip, and LCD. Next, Marketing presented market trends and suggested the group should focus on the main audience and use fresh colours, rubber materials, speech function, and the log-in functionality with the slogan. Then, User Interface presented on interface contents and suggested a big touch screen, a program menu with volume plus and minus." "Marketing: in my second sheet of personal preferences we have to reconsider the speech function recognition it is very innovative Innovative Project Manager: So that you say SPSS and it goes to Marketing: You you can see that the market is just screaming for new technologies like speak speech recognition and stuff But we have to keep the cost in in mind but it it it can be very expensive building games like Snake or Tetris to amuse the younger users also the link with mobile phones Project Manager: but you do not use that th games when you watching television I think Marketing: No but No But you do not use games when you are d when you are making a telephone call It is just the same User Interface: When your parents are watching some boring program you can take the remote and do something else Marketing: When you are at college Project Manager: You take your remote control with you Industrial Designer: You take your remote with you to school Marketing: No You al you also take t you take your IPac and go play games Well I do that but and","Marketing suggested the second personal preference from the market trend was to consider technology innovation, including the speech function recognition and the link with mobile phones. The reasons were that the market was screaming for new technologies and users could use remote to do something else, like gaming, when parents were watching some boring program." "Industrial Designer: That should not should not be that big a issue I will I will I will just add I put a big summary here so we could discuss it a bit what i what are your ideas concerning battery versus kinetic ? User Interface: I think you should use kinetic as a backup Industrial Designer: you you you should we should A combination you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic When you pick it up it charges up Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko Industrial Designer: What what do you think ? Project Manager: I I I would prefer both too Industrial Designer: well that would bring the m m some more costs but I mean the That is the Project Managers problem User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and","Industrial Designer asked about whether group mates choose battery or kinetic. User Interface suggested that they could use the kinetic as a back-up. Marketing supplemented that it could be a combination. So, Industrial Designer concluded that they could use the battery and charge it up with kinetic. Group mates agreed on it." "Project Manager: I think we can discuss a little about the the three kind of revolutionary things Tim came with The parental control the games and the voice recognition There is n not too much decision on that one so I think that parental control is a good function to to put in the remote I do not know how you think about it User Interface: Well I agree just put it in the menu structure somewhere Marketing: but What I see How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows logon screen with parents children And w when you want to use the parents option you have to User Interface: It it has to be fast You do not want to to go down and watch the news at eight of the clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for the logon screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings Project Manager: No but I think most people find it much more important that their children do not watch sex or violence on the television and wait ten or fifteen seconds longer so they can finally watch it because of that User Interface: Mmhmm Why Mmhmm You c may use like when there is XP a simple logon d you just push one or two or three And if you push parents then Marketing: That then then then you have to go to threedigit login User Interface: To log in And if you puts a ye And if you w you push p children you do not have to log in but you can only watch childrens channels or Industrial Designer: I do not know if it is worth the time and effort we are going to spend on it Because well it is a simple function but it is going to take a lot of resources and a lot of time to programming it Because you will have to start working with the profiles and such And I am not sure if it is actually worth investing that much time and effort into it Project Manager: Well I think that is a b there is a big market for it Industrial Designer: I do not know what Project Manager: because you you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff and you heard on the news that that he they believe that children are influenced by the television and Well we are we are aiming to below forty years But there are a lot of people will below forty who have children in young age who who want to not watch violent or User Interface: Well maybe some idea on that Just make through a remote as it is but make an option to insert profiles because if my grandad would buy this remote he would not want to bother with all all the all the things to do Just make it an option in menu ins install powerful profiles or something Project Manager: That is a that is a better idea ? Marketing: w It just has to be w when it is deliver out of the store it has to be just simple and plain But if you want to install it personally If I got kids and I could choose between two remote controls One w with parent control and one without and I would would buy the one with User Interface: b well still some question I have about how to incorporate those ones You are thinking about some channels they can not see but well I I when I think oh for the f for all the standard channels and only for maybe after ten of the clock in the evening violent films and movies will come and maybe maybe some some timing will be needed instead of of channels because if you are watching I do not know you are in the at day cartoons will come up m on maybe Friday night I do not know Project Manager: maybe it can work with show view you you can control your video recorder with show view when you tick in a number it will start and end recording But maybe there is some option that that t the kind of show view numbers are violent and that they are blocked out User Interface: the disadvantage vantage is that someone will has to send all the showview numbers of the programs that they remotes and edit it all Marketing: but but that is not possible Industrial Designer: But well if you want to I i i if we in incorporate the parental control let us say we do and and well whatever cho child just goes up to the TV and presses up for instance Well nob nobodys stopping the child from well checking the channel User Interface: Well you could say if parental control is only it it will go from fourteen to sixteen with the pageup then but Industrial Designer: But that Well I am not sure because for that to happen you d you will have to receive a signal from the remote control so it would have to be constant constant signalling What m what may be better is to incorporate an a separate device that that you can program with the remote control And that provides parental control for instance And that is just an optional device So there is n that is there is besides the remote control you will have a separate Project Manager: I would not put it in an optional device That that then then then it becomes too much I think If we do it we we must do it in a kind of ways that like a profile a parent profile and a family profile and otherwise User Interface: on a separate menu option Marketing: And and you know w when you install another device children can still go up to the TV p pop open the thing and and and g Industrial Designer: that is true That is true but at same instant same happens when you have remote control So But only difference is the the people buying the remote control will now get the f added feature of parental control and those people would not necessary want it So you you would be Marketing: But it is just an an added feature feature Project Manager: And what do you guys think of the games in the voice recognition ? I personally think that that becomes too much It is more like it gets you to the functionality but User Interface: A mail too from management that it is very popular to use voice recon recognition But I do not think when you are watching TV hearing loud noises from the TV someone screaming one and you f the channel switches Marketing: like f voice recognition is too much I think But Industrial Designer: I can see games happening User Interface: W you can put it on chip anyway so As long as it is is not a primary feature of the remote Marketing: That that does not c that does not co that that does not cost a lot of extra resources I think Project Manager: So that will that that that must be in it you think ? So the games are in it The voice recognition are not And the parental control are Marketing: it is it is in it But too ma I I think so but User Interface: But how we do it ? Well I think also it is a good idea buts very difficult to incorporate So we should make it too complex Is t some menu function you choose parental control and maybe four files will emerge from menu where put it on But how how it is going to work will f be a problem Project Manager: but will there Like the first idea from You can buy it without and with parental contr control ? Or are we going to put it in and just User Interface: Mmhmm Well Ye I I think best would be to put it in and make it an menu option Marketing: to put it in always User Interface: And you can just s when you buy it you can select personal preference parental control on and the password or something Industrial Designer: Well I do not know I I figure if you had two different remotes you could bo choose one with well a receiver in it So you could actually easily build in parental control But it would would be more expensive So a and that that way you could make cheap model and a expensive model Could ma make the simple model and the deluxe model for instance User Interface: Oh it is a p Marketing: but TVs are not capable of sending ? I thought they were just Industrial Designer: you you have some TVs any Marketing: a able to receive some But Industrial Designer: That is true that is true User Interface: Well maybe you just have to restrict it to what programs where the parent says you can not watch channel seven nine and ten and you can not watch all channels after ten of the clock And there is just some little clock in the remote Industrial Designer: Well you could you could easily you could easily you could easily to the mote control But you still have the problem about the television itself User Interface: No no it is very simple There th I h I have seen some of remotes who have a clock in it So the remote does does not transmit when it is after twelve clock Marketing: at least my TV is a is a compartment which you can press And there are buttons behind it which you can use if you d if you do not if you do not have a User Interface: Well that is To put it very blunt that is not our problem Just have the parents buy some glue and It is not not a part of the remote Industrial Designer: that is true that is true you could you could you could go like User Interface: or make it ourselves very diffic Industrial Designer: that that would actually make things a lot more easy You could just blame it on television and make it their problem I figured I figure we could do that sure I am not sure what marketing thinks about it but Marketing: I have to consult my legal advisor about it Project Manager: So I think we have decided on the things that from Janus the energy the combination between battery and kinetic The case will be doublecurved and rubber in a fr flashy fruity colour that with cover is removable The buttons will be touchscreen but there may not be too many buttons And in the the menu structure there must not to be Five minutes to go too too many levels And it must be easy to use The parental control will be incorporated but it must be not too complex And the games are in it So I think we have we have decided Marketing: Oh Oh I I have one thing left the views Maybe it is handy to build in an expert view and a simple view Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something Marketing: Like at In the experts view you have a lot of more buttons Project Manager: but you have that in the User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure when you do not use it is simple And when you push system properties entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program Project Manager: It is already incorporated a little in that concept Industrial Designer: Well you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself for the more advanced users Marketing: wh which buttons you like or not Industrial Designer: which buttons do you want to in it Because you can you can like build in a backforward button and some po somebody would just want to watch two channels Marketing: Just leave the other numbers away Industrial Designer: you could you could m have people want want that Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting ? I have a little w little chat to do","Group mates agreed that they could incorporate the parental control as well as the gaming features into the remote control. However, they would discard the idea of voice recognition because it would be too much for the remote feature." "Project Manager: There is n not too much decision on that one so I think that parental control is a good function to to put in the remote I do not know how you think about it User Interface: Well I agree just put it in the menu structure somewhere Marketing: but What I see How I see it is you put it on the the remote and then you have like a Windows logon screen with parents children And w when you want to use the parents option you have to User Interface: It it has to be fast You do not want to to go down and watch the news at eight of the clock and turn it on and wait twenty seconds for for the logon screen and then remember your code and all kinds of settings Project Manager: No but I think most people find it much more important that their children do not watch sex or violence on the television and wait ten or fifteen seconds longer so they can finally watch it because of that User Interface: Mmhmm Why Mmhmm You c may use like when there is XP a simple logon d you just push one or two or three And if you push parents then Marketing: That then then then you have to go to threedigit login User Interface: To log in And if you puts a ye And if you w you push p children you do not have to log in but you can only watch childrens channels or Industrial Designer: I do not know if it is worth the time and effort we are going to spend on it Because well it is a simple function but it is going to take a lot of resources and a lot of time to programming it Because you will have to start working with the profiles and such And I am not sure if it is actually worth investing that much time and effort into it Project Manager: Well I think that is a b there is a big market for it Industrial Designer: I do not know what Project Manager: because you you read many times in magazines same kind of stuff and you heard on the news that that he they believe that children are influenced by the television and Well we are we are aiming to below forty years But there are a lot of people will below forty who have children in young age who who want to not watch violent or User Interface: Well maybe some idea on that Just make through a remote as it is but make an option to insert profiles because if my grandad would buy this remote he would not want to bother with all all the all the things to do Just make it an option in menu ins install powerful profiles or something Project Manager: That is a that is a better idea ? Marketing: w It just has to be w when it is deliver out of the store it has to be just simple and plain","When the group suggested having the implementation of parents' log-on screen in the remote, Industrial Designer thought it would be not worth investing much time and effort to program. However, Project manager disagreed with this because there would be a huge market for parental control when they heard from magazines that many parents thought their children were influenced by televisions. Also, Project Manager mentioned that their target group was below forty, and lots of families had children at a young age." "Marketing: the views Maybe it is handy to build in an expert view and a simple view Project Manager: Like a like a moat or s or something Marketing: Like at In the experts view you have a lot of more buttons Project Manager: but you have that in the User Interface: What I was thinking about is just a menu structure when you do not use it is simple And when you push system properties entire list pops up with e ev all kind of f stuff you can program Project Manager: It is already incorporated a little in that concept Industrial Designer: Well you you could actually build in a function that you can program it yourself for the more advanced users Marketing: wh which buttons you like or not Industrial Designer: which buttons do you want to in it Because you can you can like build in a backforward button and some po somebody would just want to watch two channels Marketing: Just leave the other numbers away Industrial Designer: you could you could m have people want want that Project Manager: We take it to the other meeting ? I have a little w little chat to do","Marketing suggested building an expert view and a simple view for handy consideration. User Interface suggested that in the menu structure, they could push system properties so that the entire list would pop up for programming. Industrial Designer supplemented that they could build in a back-forward button if someone wanted to watch fewer channels." "Marketing: Oh During the design design lifecycle we we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff now is the time to evaluate our prototype concept to to the past requirements So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis we are going to do that with a seven point scale Opening a Word document now One oh I have to expla explain something We have to be consensive about about things So it has to be a group group decision Project Manager: so we gon we going to evaluate the Marketing: We are going to vote We Project Manager: the the thing we saw Marketing: one The remote control is designed for people with age below forty Industrial Designer: it is not just designed for people under the age of forty It is also designed for people above forty Marketing: so a o one is appropriate ? User Interface: No no a little more in the middle Marketing: Or more like a four Industrial Designer: two or three because it is not just the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age below forty But it is also designed for people of age above forty So I will say it is about three User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty but also appealing to Marketing: But also for second The remote control is beautiful acco according to us it is one ? Or User Interface: it is the marketing angle on television Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be very positive and enthusiastic about your own product User Interface: Well it is also fancy then Marketing: Three the remote control looks fancy User Interface: Of course We have a perfect remote Marketing: Good Four The remote control has big clear channel switching buttons User Interface: Yes oh they have to agree but I am the User Interface Expert Marketing: Daniel teletext buttons and volume buttons ? Project Manager: No teletext buttons Teletext is in the menu User Interface: You you have different menu Industrial Designer: the they are big and clear User Interface: But you could make a teletext button six Otherwise the people who read this are going to think we have no teletext button Industrial Designer: but but the teletext button you can ch That is in a menu Marketing: It is it is not Industrial Designer: So it is w it it it it is not entirely unclear but So I would not give it a seven I would give it a more a five or a six I don I do not know What do you think Mister Project Manager ? Project Manager: Oh Well I agree I was thinking very black and white User Interface: do not forget to save it Marketing: Red Volume The remote control is easy to be found User Interface: well when we put in fancy colours Industrial Designer: it has these all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape So if you so if you have trouble finding it User Interface: But it it is not making any sound Marketing: but If you put your normal remote control under your bed or you throw this remote control under your bed is it better findable ? User Interface: It will make a difference We have the better re I do not know I think so My remote controls black Marketing: A li little bit maybe ? Project Manager: Well we p we can do it glow in the dark So if it is in the dark place you still see it glowing User Interface: Fo fo fo five is Marketing: Ah I I I think five It is it is it does not really make a lot of Industrial Designer: Well then then I will go for four Because four is between three and also between between true and false Marketing: Yes but five is between four and six Industrial Designer: so I will I will go for four Project Manager: Ah you must see it as w according to the the other remote controls there may be there in your TV room this one will stand out I think Industrial Designer: that that is a better question actually Project Manager: Exa I think that that is what it is about User Interface: If your fifteen remotes in a drawer you find it ? Project Manager: If it if this lying on your couch you are you are you think what is that for kind of orange thing Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they really lost it Like no not not seeing it but lost it in the house or something User Interface: but when you lost it you are just not Industrial Designer: Well if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere then you would recognise it as whoa that is strange Project Manager: That is our remote control User Interface: mostly when you lose your remote control it it is under your Marketing: I I agree I agree User Interface: Most of times when you lose it you are sitting on it Marketing: Eight the remote control has fresh fruity colours User Interface: I would call choose two because we decided not to make two f fresh colours as it would not Marketing: The remote control is made of soft material Industrial Designer: rubber is kind of soft Project Manager: but not too soft we have decided User Interface: kind of soft but but not this Project Manager: can it be zero ? Industrial Designer: Well I don it is kind of Marketing: Top easy to use ? It is it is not the most easy to use User Interface: No you can do two because it can be easier But then you are l Marketing: Jus just with ten buttons that is the easiest User Interface: but then you will lose function f functionality and our fancy look so Marketing: but the most easy to use is just with one button User Interface: But It is r it is rather easy to use because you have the primary buttons always visible Marketing: on t but easy n not not the most easy to use I think Industrial Designer: No it is it I I will go for two My votes on two Marketing: We also have to compare it to the to the remote controls on the market nowadays So User Interface: but waits just a minutes Inspiration Project Manager: What is the time ? We also have to do the evaluation the production costs and stuff User Interface: These are the m regular remotes Marketing: eleven The remote control is innovative Project Manager: You are agree Tim ? You have not seen a more innovative thing in Paris ? Marketing: The remote control has m remova removable from Multilux The remote control i it has speech recognition User Interface: This is used with speech recognition this Marketing: The remote control has builtin games ? User Interface: Yes But maybe make it two because the games are in a submenu and not it is not an entire game Project Manager: but they are built in so it is one Marketing: And the last paren parental advisory function Industrial Designer: You really like the parental advisory User Interface: Th did you make this or the Marketing: Now it is your turn Project Manager: Mm we have now to c to calculate the production cost If it is under twelve and half Euro then it is ok But i is it if it is b Huh ? No this is not right so Redesign User Interface: If they are under twelve fifty Project Manager: Oh if they under No Oh it is User Interface: ? Cau because so it is","The marketing expert confirmed with the group that the product was aimed at people with age below forty, but it was also designed for people above forty. The marketing expert also stated that people would need a teletext button because it was originally combined with the menu in the prototype. After that, the marketing expert discussed with the designers to design the prototype with fresh colours so it would be more discoverable when lost. They also agreed on the button numbers and the texture." "Marketing: Hey those ar arcs why are there for ? Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want So if we do this we are on twelve and a half Euro And we are done User Interface: but does it fit with our design ? Project Manager: well the only thing that do not User Interface: Do we have to you adapt it ? It is singlecurves Project Manager: singlecurved but there is a curve in it So User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles cut off the back and then we are has Industrial Designer: we just make it flat Marketing: But wha Kay look what is the If you make it doublecurved it costs one Euro more User Interface: More You make it optional Marketing: But No but does it have a lot of extra Industrial Designer: Worth does it have added worth ? User Interface: there is an a a athe aesthetic value but not functionality Project Manager: it is really a static value Marketing: aesthetic I mean you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half But I do not know if twelve and a half is a fixed fixed price Industrial Designer: well let us assume it is Marketing: No we can not go above that Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is","At first the user interface designer wanted to make the remote control curvy. The marketing expert was skeptical of the curvy outlook because it was interrelated with the budget. The marketing expert was concerned as the expert thought it was not necessary. However, the user interface designer insisted on the curvy design as it had a strong aesthetic value. In the end, the designers compromised to make the remote control flat and single-curved instead of double-curved." "Industrial Designer: f as colours do you do you have the picture in Oh Now well this is the idea about the bumps you can see there is a v a very youthful dynamic exterior It you just want to hold it you you are young and dynamic like us Marketing: S l it is like an Easter egg Industrial Designer: it is like an e but this is for children We we want a more adult version But this is like a remote control for children Project Manager: It is called a weemote Industrial Designer: Hey that is actually a brilliant marketing stand Marketing: Wait what I w got in mind Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea We we just want to build a more adult vers adult version of of this And and for colours we we figured starting with basic colours like white or metallic grey Those are the technological colours actually User Interface: It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple but when the o older people go in the shop and they see an orange remote control it would be less appealing than a white one And young people we think are a little bit more flexible they think ah I will buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip Marketing: Maybe it is an idea to sell it without a cover so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop User Interface: Well I think a cover is necessary because als otherwise you will just have the LCD screen So there must be some cheap standard cover maybe white or something that is could comes with it and you can buy so we can make extra money Project Manager: but you d you must not forget that our target aim is younger people we had decided to put some flashy fruity colours in it and in the survey from Milan and Paris it it came out that the d the older people are more willing to to spend money on extra features So I think it will be a better idea to have some flashy fruity colours as as a standard","The user interface designer was trying to implement a more dynamic and youthful colour on the remote control. However, the designers did not want it to be too childish and stated their will to make it more of an adult-style. Thus they wanted to use metallic grey as the colour of the appearance, and make an extra cover with flashy fruity colours to attract the broader public. Since their target aim was still younger people, a cover would make them more flexible to change the remote control into whatever colour they wanted." "Project Manager: The kinetic thing can we just skip it User Interface: Just cut off the kine Project Manager: because you have to shake it but that is not really innovative User Interface: we just put a good battery it it Marketing: what do you think about Here What do you think about putting a battery in it but also selling like the covers a docking station just apart from the from the thing so that you can put rechargeable batteries in it and just User Interface: But you can use rechargeable batteries anyway just you s you have to recharge them manual Project Manager: But we if you forget about the kinetic User Interface: that is a cost reduc Project Manager: well if we do that we shall Industrial Designer: well you you can go from doublecurved to singlecurved And that would solve the budget problem Project Manager: b but i but the singlecurved is just oh User Interface: so we have to bake the ba back flat and then No it is it is just one curve and not a back curved I think Or Industrial Designer: It is just well the singlecurve that Project Manager: So that is wh tha that is one option User Interface: Or are these two curves ? Project Manager: And then w and then we could have it but it is its well it is it is r it is the main point of the the the the look User Interface: but what else do we have to cut out ? No advanced chip that is a little bit of problem Project Manager: No though that that can be done User Interface: Although can we make it with a regular chip ? Marketing: Hey those ar arcs why are there for ? Project Manager: I can delete it for you if you want So if we do this we are on twelve and a half Euro And we are done User Interface: but does it fit with our design ? Project Manager: well the only thing that do not User Interface: Do we have to you adapt it ? It is singlecurves Project Manager: singlecurved but there is a curve in it So User Interface: W Could we just make the bubbles cut off the back and then we are has Industrial Designer: we just make it flat Marketing: But wha Kay look what is the If you make it doublecurved it costs one Euro more User Interface: More You make it optional Marketing: But No but does it have a lot of extra Industrial Designer: Worth does it have added worth ? User Interface: there is an a a athe aesthetic value but not functionality Project Manager: it is really a static value Marketing: aesthetic I mean you make like eleven and a half Euros profit instead of twelve and a half But I do not know if twelve and a half is a fixed fixed price Industrial Designer: well let us assume it is Marketing: No we can not go above that Industrial Designer: We we should assume it i that it is But I I figured that the kinetic would be a marketing promotion R if you promote a kinetic I kinetic remote control I mean that would b sell better than an a normal remote control Project Manager: Do you think ? Well now you can shake your remote control Industrial Designer: No well y I mean y you can go into your neighbour and tell him ha my k remote control is kinetic You have standard old battery control remote con Marketing: What a what about all the m the environment freaks ? User Interface: but it does not fit in our co cost profile So Marketing: I I think it is it is It look like this one User Interface: You ma can make an an especialised extra gold version Project Manager: ? Who because if you want to go to kinetic you are you are on thirteen and a half and you must go to flat","The project manager wanted to remove the kinetic function as the manager thought it would be a desirable cost reduction. However, the industrial designer did not agree with the project manager because the designer thought it would be a good marketing promotion as people would think that remote controls with kinetic function are cool. Since they still wanted the price to remain on the same level, they decided to adapt the control into a flat one so as to minimize the cost." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is We have had mixed evidence I would suggest from groups of stakeholders We have heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour that pupils are spoonfed We have heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked the grades are inflated that there is little rigour in the sampling and moderation there is a confusion about how the SCC is graded and I know that is something you talked about actually that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour I suppose my question to you is : if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders how are going to address that ? To what extent is that a real problem ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all That is how it should be and that is how you create value by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous What is really important is that it is not just me saying that it is rigorous there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications The fact is that at advanced level—because I do not know if you are making these observations about the pre16 Welsh bac or whether we are talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an Alevel It is been benchmarked against Alevels It has a UCAS tariff associated with it It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an Alevel is So therefore I do not have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification In terms of spoonfeeding one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it is very difficult for instance in the individual project work to be spoonfed It is very demanding of individual students and it is very difficult in a way That is one of the reasons why it is valuable is not it because it teaches a different set of skills ? Because if you are doing a traditional say history Alevel or a science Alevel there is a very strict syllabus and a course there is a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus with the Welsh bac it is individual students that have to think for instance of their own individual project You can not get those off a shelf and you can not necessarily just find that information easily There is real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that So I do not have concerns about the rigour I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at But in terms of rigour and people being spoonfed then I do not share those concerns Dawn Bowden AM: because those were concerns in the main that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers So I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they are not taking the bac as seriously as some others are Kirsty Williams AM: And of course there would be— There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills— It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour so it was the mixed message I guess I was just trying to test out with you Similarly on the skills challenge certificate again we have heard from various stakeholders about whether in fact this is considered to be an equivalent qualification We have heard people say that it is different—it is not the same as an Alevel—so therefore you can not absolutely hold it up and say it is the same as an Alevel It requires different skills and so on and so forth So just your thoughts and views on that really as an equivalent qualification Kirsty Williams AM: It is not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification this is an equivalent qualification There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government and it is not a question Is it a different model and a different way of studying ? Yes of course it is and that is why we do it That is why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills So yes it is different Is it equivalent ? Yes it is and that is why since the graded qualification came in it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an Alevel and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as Alevels would have tariffs You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well Lynne Neagle AM: Suzys got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities Suzy Davies AM: Is that ? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoonfeeding at post 16 where you said it is actually very difficult for that to occur because obviously we are talking about the personal project and so forth We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do And we have also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges I can not quite remember now—that some students were being told On your personal project just put in what you did for your GCSElevel baccalaureate and add a few paragraphs I am wondering how easy it is to disguise spoonfeeding at post 16 when we have got two instances there that to me suggest it is more about the convenience of the teachers who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification Kirsty Williams AM: Yes And that would be really disappointing And again if I can use my own personal family experience my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher She is in a different school from where she did her earlier bac and she said Oh well I will just rehash my `` Votes at 16 '' that I did last year and the Welsh bac teacher has said Under no circumstances are you to do that—no that is not allowed This is about using your individual project linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university to get the value out of this qualification and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement and potentially in an interview So again I guess what this does is show that there is a variation but certainly where it is being delivered well then that practice would not be encouraged because it would be seen to be— —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer","Kirsty Williams admitted that the grading system was rigorous and equivalent to A-Level. A UCAS tariff associated with it, and it was the individual ability that was evaluated by the system. About the resit issue, the committee agreed that WJEC and the Qualifications Wales was supposed to regulate this." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair You touched on this once or twice in answers to questions about how rigorous the qualification is We have had mixed evidence I would suggest from groups of stakeholders We have heard people say that the Welsh bac has no rigour that pupils are spoonfed We have heard that the Welsh bac is passively marked the grades are inflated that there is little rigour in the sampling and moderation there is a confusion about how the SCC is graded and I know that is something you talked about actually that introducing the grading system is improving the rigour I suppose my question to you is : if the Welsh bac is being seen in this way by stakeholders how are going to address that ? To what extent is that a real problem ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think making it a graded qualification has been really important and I make no apologies for this qualification being rigorous—no apologies for that at all That is how it should be and that is how you create value by ensuring that a qualification is rigorous What is really important is that it is not just me saying that it is rigorous there is an independent process that benchmarks qualifications The fact is that at advanced level—because I do not know if you are making these observations about the pre16 Welsh bac or whether we are talking about the advanced level qualification—that is the equivalent of an Alevel It is been benchmarked against Alevels It has a UCAS tariff associated with it It is used by universities as a means of qualification that gains entrance into a university in just the same way as an Alevel is So therefore I do not have any concerns about the rigour of the qualification In terms of spoonfeeding one of the reasons why universities like the qualification is that it is very difficult for instance in the individual project work to be spoonfed It is very demanding of individual students and it is very difficult in a way That is one of the reasons why it is valuable is not it because it teaches a different set of skills ? Because if you are doing a traditional say history Alevel or a science Alevel there is a very strict syllabus and a course there is a textbook and people are taught to that particular syllabus with the Welsh bac it is individual students that have to think for instance of their own individual project You can not get those off a shelf and you can not necessarily just find that information easily There is real skill involved in being able to do that well and get graded well for that So I do not have concerns about the rigour I do have concerns about some of the feedback by Qualifications Wales about the onerousness of the evaluation and what that means for teacher workload which is one of the things that Qualifications Wales is looking at But in terms of rigour and people being spoonfed then I do not share those concerns Dawn Bowden AM: because those were concerns in the main that were articulated by people delivering the Welsh bac—by teachers So I suppose the question then comes back to some of the other points that were being raised about the consistency because that may well be from those teachers in schools where they are not taking the bac as seriously as some others are Kirsty Williams AM: And of course there would be— There is a professional responsibility for those teachers delivering that qualification to ensure that the ethos of that qualification and the skills— It would potentially be a disservice to students if that qualification was being delivered in that way Dawn Bowden AM: And I think what I was trying to do was to highlight the different opinions because we also heard from teachers who were saying that those involved with teaching and studying understood absolutely its rigour so it was the mixed message I guess I was just trying to test out with you Similarly on the skills challenge certificate again we have heard from various stakeholders about whether in fact this is considered to be an equivalent qualification We have heard people say that it is different—it is not the same as an Alevel—so therefore you can not absolutely hold it up and say it is the same as an Alevel It requires different skills and so on and so forth So just your thoughts and views on that really as an equivalent qualification Kirsty Williams AM: It is not a question of if this is an equivalent qualification this is an equivalent qualification There is a rigorous process that is undertaken to evaluate these qualifications independent of the Government and it is not a question Is it a different model and a different way of studying ? Yes of course it is and that is why we do it That is why I want children and young people to do both sets of qualifications because it does engage and expand the acquisition of knowledge and skills So yes it is different Is it equivalent ? Yes it is and that is why since the graded qualification came in it is regarded by independent bodies as an equivalent to an Alevel and it has a tariff for UCAS in the same way as Alevels would have tariffs You only have to speak to the institutes of higher education who use this qualification as a way of setting grades—you know offers—for students that they see that in the same way as well","Kirsty Williams assured the committee members that the grading system was rigorous and it focused on the students' ability to think independently. When Dawn Bowden challenged the value of the Welsh baccalaureate, Kirsty Williams defended its qualification by demonstrating its tariff for UCAS. He reiterated that the evaluation engaged and expanded the acquisition of knowledge and skills." "Lynne Neagle AM: Suzys got a supplementary before we go on to talk in detail about universities Suzy Davies AM: Is that ? Because I just want to go back to this element of spoonfeeding at post 16 where you said it is actually very difficult for that to occur because obviously we are talking about the personal project and so forth We heard evidence in one of the schools sessions we did that baccalaureate students were being offered a very short and narrow list of subjects on which they could do their personal project which actually limited the scope of what they were able to do And we have also heard separately—it may have been with the colleges I can not quite remember now—that some students were being told On your personal project just put in what you did for your GCSElevel baccalaureate and add a few paragraphs I am wondering how easy it is to disguise spoonfeeding at post 16 when we have got two instances there that to me suggest it is more about the convenience of the teachers who perhaps may not be very enthusiastic about the bac rather than making sure those children get the best out of the qualification Kirsty Williams AM: Yes And that would be really disappointing And again if I can use my own personal family experience my daughter has tried that on with her Welsh bac teacher She is in a different school from where she did her earlier bac and she said Oh well I will just rehash my `` Votes at 16 '' that I did last year and the Welsh bac teacher has said Under no circumstances are you to do that—no that is not allowed This is about using your individual project linked to something that maybe you hope to study at university to get the value out of this qualification and for you to be able to use this in your personal statement and potentially in an interview So again I guess what this does is show that there is a variation but certainly where it is being delivered well then that practice would not be encouraged because it would be seen to be— —denuding the students of the very valuable experience the qualification has to offer","Suzy Davies doubted that teachers might not pay enough attention to students' preparation for the baccalaureate and were prone to ""spoon-feed"". Kirsty Williams, however, pointed out that this was unlikely to happen, for different from the A-Levels which graded students under the particular syllabus of each subject, the baccalaureate evaluated the personal project and the ability of independent thinking." "Lynne Neagle AM: We have got some questions now on how universities view it Hefin David Hefin David AM: We have had an online survey response which was quite a stark comment not from the vicechancellors office but from a member of staff within Cardiff University And it said : The Welsh Bacc is not a fair substitute for a full Alevel and should not be regarded as such I consider it to be a disadvantage for Welsh students compared with their English counterparts Can you reflect on that ? Do you think that that is a view that is held within universities and are you concerned about that ? Because it is a view that is obviously held within Cardiff University Kirsty Williams AM: No I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University— Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students Kirsty Williams AM: Well that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University And actually Cardiff University—indeed all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an Alevel equivalent I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to Alevel for the vast majority of universities to get in to some of the most competitive courses such as dentistry medicine veterinary science So those courses where we know there is a high demand and high competition for places there are institutions that are using that including Cardiff to get into their medical degree Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil the deputy principal of Gower College said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group do not value the Welsh bac Kirsty Williams AM: Well I do not know where he is getting that from I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford I spoke again to Cambridge Oxford Bath Southampton St Andrews only last week who were exhibiting at the Seren conference I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways First of all for many of those universities for many of their courses they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an Alevel If they do not there are some courses for instance where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level So for instance rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A A B they would offer a Welsh student A B B plus a Welsh bac thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university either with or without their Welsh bac qualification Even for those universities that do not use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a students personal statement they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from Alevel work to universitytype work which if you can imagine is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning So I just do not recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification Hefin David AM: You can not recognise it but that is contrary to the evidence that we have received I am not saying that the evidence is conclusive but it actually demonstrates inconsistency So would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application ? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody Hefin that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions What I am telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers consistently absolutely across the board all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we have received that would be contrary to what you have just said So I think we would end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view So would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective ? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out firsthand—not via my officials but firsthand—from those institutions their views So this is not something that is hearsay I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities We have written to all vicechancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification If you have heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially rather than from somebody who has emailed in then I would be pleased to look at that evidence because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an email— Hefin David AM: No I have said that Lynne Neagle AM: —we did do a survey and we have also taken oral evidence Hefin David AM: Yes and it is representing the evidence that we received Kirsty Williams AM: And I am presenting you with the evidence that I have received Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee no doubt Let us look at some admissions offers instead then You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate How would you suggest that that is addressed ? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals What is absolutely clear to me and if the concern is around the type of institution— So for instance it is accepted as a thirdgrade offer in Bristol Edinburgh Exeter Lancaster Leeds Leicester Liverpool the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University and it is accepted in tariffpoint offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification and that is their prerogative—that is their prerogative as institutions They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers You know there is a difference in universities there is not there ? Some universities do not have unconditional offers at all other universities— Hefin David AM: So what you are saying is that the problem is not connected to the Welsh bac it is connected with just the way that universities make offers and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it Kirsty Williams AM: I am saying there is a variety Just like any other qualification there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers What I am saying to you is that in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification They value the qualification They think it is useful It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education And therefore I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it is a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification Sorry Andrew Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response ? There are obviously differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate which is the prime focus of this The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification Kirsty Williams AM: Yes that has made a difference Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and therefore as part of their personal statement as part of their interview the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised even by those who do not actually make it part of their offer So we are still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years but the journey is taking us to the right place towards the right destination Hefin David AM: So it is not just about variable admissions practices across universities it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well which needed changing in order to improve that Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015 When it was a yesno qualification I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification Kirsty Williams AM: And that is the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago Hefin David AM: So last question then : are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about ? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification But I am confident that the university sector in its wide variety of forms regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake and they certainly do not regard it as a detriment to students Lynne Neagle AM: Siân wants to come in on this and then I have got a question from Suzy on Seren Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes just that the committee of course has been trying to gain evidence on this sector from the universities themselves but Universities Wales which represents the interests of universities in Wales has rejected the committees invitation to submit any oral or written evidence So can you see the dilemma we are in ? We are hearing a few things coming from some universities we hear what you are saying but we can not get to the root of the matter because the universities themselves are not willing to come to speak to us Are you also disappointed that they have rejected our invitation to come and speak to us ? Hefin David AM: Where is the enthusiasm Chair ? Where is the enthusiasm ? Sian Gwenllian AM: And perhaps that is a sign that they do not want to be drawn into this argument between the Government and us as a committee Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is a matter for individual universities to decide whether they want to participate in the work of this committee I would urge them to do so All Welsh universities regard the Welsh baccalaureate as an equivalent to Alevel and all universities use it as part of their offer—Welsh universities Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes but you see what our dilemma is though because if we can not actually ask them directly it is a bit difficult for us to actually probe this and to help move things on ? Anyway I will leave it at that Thank you Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is a matter for them and maybe the Chair would like to take that up with Universities Wales Lynne Neagle AM: We have had quite an extensive dialogue with them about it Suzy on Seren Suzy Davies AM: So just briefly you have said several times that having a Welsh bac qualification is an advantage and certainly no detriment and that it is valued by universities But advantage is not the same as equivalence and we have had evidence from—I think it was Cardiff University again where they had students with two Alevels and a bac who were actually performing as weaker students So even though on the face of it you have got three Alevels those particular students are not matching up to the expectations of a student with three Alevels I do want to challenge what you said about the students who are involved in the Seren network about the baccalaureate being accepted for things like veterinary medicine and medicine itself We have had evidence from FE colleges which are now significant players in producing our Serenstyle students if you like that they are exempting their students from doing the bac because it is a distraction effectively What is your comment on that ? Because if this is a question of communication which I suspect you are about to tell me one of the axioms of good communication is you can have the best marketing in the world but if the product you are selling is not highly valued then you are actually just doubling the problem So can you explain to me why FE is exempting their highest flyers from doing the bac ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think sometimes colleges make the decision that four or five Alevels is of an advantage and therefore if you are asking students to carry that workload which is a considerable workload that is the preferred route for more able and talented students Again what is quite clear in all the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities including Oxford and Cambridge is that this is a myth What universities tell me they want is not necessarily students with four or five Alevels they want students with three really exceptional grades at Alevel and a Welsh baccalaureate I think that is really really an important message to get across—that it is not necessary to do four or five Alevels if you aspire to go to these Russell Group universities or if you decide you want to apply to Oxford and Cambridge As I said in the conversations that we have had—and there is actually some research and I will let the committee have links to the research There is some research to suggest that those students who have been involved in projectbased work—and of course that is not just the Welsh baccalaureate that would be the EPQ which is a qualification that is rapidly gaining traction in England That is an extended project—research based—qualification very similar to the individual project element of the Welsh baccalaureate The EPQ in England is seen as a qualification taken by more able and talented students and what we see in some of the research that is coming forward is that those students who have engaged in that type of work projectbased work individualled researchbased work—those skills are the skills that are really attuned to the nature of universitytype work Therefore that is valued by universities and there is some indication to say that there is a correlation between the students who have undertaken that work and their potential success at undergraduate level They also tell me that there is a link between for instance being able then to use those skills to gain work experience placements and internships in the private sector and in the world of work because as I said those types of skills are really really valuable and therefore that is why they value the qualification Suzy Davies AM: Can I just add— ? It is great that they are telling you why are not they telling FE ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said I think it is really important that FE colleges understand that there is a myth around the fact that these universities are looking for four or five Alevels and if that is the reason why then colleges are not allowing students or dissuading students from taking the Welsh bac I think we need to reflect on what is important to those universities—which is the right Alevels I think it is really really important that students are given the best advice about the Alevels they need to take facilitating subjects to get into a university and the value of the skills and knowledge they will acquire through the Welsh bac as an assistance to them going forward","The committee members disagreed on the universities' attitudes. Hefin David pointed out that according to the response of an online survey, universities such as Cardiff University refused to consider the baccalaureate as a fair substitute for a full A-Level. However, Kirsty Williams claimed that he had a personal commitment to establishing the recognition of the baccalaureate with the universities and almost all Welsh universities recognized the baccalaureate as a qualification. In the end, despite the ambivalent attitudes of universities, the committee had to admit that the admissions practice was decided by universities and the baccalaureate qualification still required refinement." "Hefin David AM: Do you think that that is a view that is held within universities and are you concerned about that ? Because it is a view that is obviously held within Cardiff University Kirsty Williams AM: No I would say that that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University— Hefin David AM: Who has influence over students Kirsty Williams AM: Well that is a view held by an individual in Cardiff University And actually Cardiff University—indeed all Welsh universities—accept the Welsh baccalaureate as an Alevel equivalent I think it is really important to reflect on the wide range of opportunities at higher education that the Welsh bac affords individuals That means that it is deemed as an equivalent to Alevel for the vast majority of universities to get in to some of the most competitive courses such as dentistry medicine veterinary science So those courses where we know there is a high demand and high competition for places there are institutions that are using that including Cardiff to get into their medical degree Hefin David AM: Nick Brazil the deputy principal of Gower College said about 50 per cent of the Russell Group do not value the Welsh bac Kirsty Williams AM: Well I do not know where he is getting that from I have made it a personal commitment to establish this with universities I have visited both Cambridge and Oxford I spoke again to Cambridge Oxford Bath Southampton St Andrews only last week who were exhibiting at the Seren conference I specifically took the opportunity to meet with those universities and to talk to them about how they feel about the Welsh bac They have a high regard for the Welsh baccalaureate in a variety of ways First of all for many of those universities for many of their courses they use the Welsh bac as an equivalent to an Alevel If they do not there are some courses for instance where they will lower their offer to gain a place at that university if the Welsh bac is passed at a certain level So for instance rather than maybe offering a Welsh student A A B they would offer a Welsh student A B B plus a Welsh bac thus giving students two opportunities to gain a place at that university either with or without their Welsh bac qualification Even for those universities that do not use the Welsh baccalaureate as a formal part of their offer—and this is the conversation I had again last week with Oxford and Cambridge—they value it as part of a students personal statement they value it as part of the interview process in which a student may or may not then be offered a place at that university and they also recognise that the skills learnt by students whilst undertaking the Welsh baccalaureate are exactly the skills that those students need to make a successful transition from Alevel work to universitytype work which if you can imagine is very much based on individual research and being able to guide your own learning So I just do not recognise that in some way Welsh students are being disadvantaged The message I get consistently from universities is that there are significant advantages to Welsh learners taking this qualification Hefin David AM: You can not recognise it but that is contrary to the evidence that we have received I am not saying that the evidence is conclusive but it actually demonstrates inconsistency So would you go so far as to accept instead then that there is an inconsistency in the way that universities use the Welsh bac as a tool for application ? Kirsty Williams AM: You would know better than anybody Hefin that universities are autonomous institutions and they set their own methods of entry into those institutions What I am telling you is that the evidence that I have received from universities is that whilst there is a variety of approaches to how they regard the qualification in terms of offers consistently absolutely across the board all universities tell me that the Welsh baccalaureate is a valuable qualification and does not disadvantage Welsh students Hefin David AM: If the committee were to produce a report based on the evidence we have received that would be contrary to what you have just said So I think we would end up in a debate in which we are setting out different points of view So would you therefore commit to exploring that perspective ? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin I would argue that I have indeed explored that perspective because I have taken the trouble to find out firsthand—not via my officials but firsthand—from those institutions their views So this is not something that is hearsay I have undertaken to ascertain the views of those universities We have written to all vicechancellors—last year—with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate qualification Qualifications Wales has an individual whose specific job it is to ensure that universities across the United Kingdom understand the value of Welsh qualifications That will become increasingly important as we see a divergence between English and Welsh qualifications But I have to say that the evidence that I have from universities is that the Welsh baccalaureate whilst it may be used in different ways in terms of an offer the consistency from all universities is that it is a valuable qualification If you have heard differently from admissions tutors and from the universities officially rather than from somebody who has emailed in then I would be pleased to look at that evidence because it would be in stark contrast to what I am being told by universities Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin is not referring to an email— Hefin David AM: No I have said that Lynne Neagle AM: —we did do a survey and we have also taken oral evidence Hefin David AM: Yes and it is representing the evidence that we received Kirsty Williams AM: And I am presenting you with the evidence that I have received Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee no doubt Let us look at some admissions offers instead then You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate How would you suggest that that is addressed ? Kirsty Williams AM: Hefin each individual institution and university the length and breadth of the UK have different ways in which they make offers to individuals What is absolutely clear to me and if the concern is around the type of institution— So for instance it is accepted as a thirdgrade offer in Bristol Edinburgh Exeter Lancaster Leeds Leicester Liverpool the London School of Economics—some of the highest performing universities and Russell Group universities It is accepted as a fourth qualification or amends the offer in places like Bath University and it is accepted in tariffpoint offers in places like Hull and the University of the West of England So there is a variety of ways in which universities use the qualification and that is their prerogative—that is their prerogative as institutions They will have different ways in which they recruit and how they offer places just like different universities will have different views on unconditional offers You know there is a difference in universities there is not there ? Some universities do not have unconditional offers at all other universities— Hefin David AM: So what you are saying is that the problem is not connected to the Welsh bac it is connected with just the way that universities make offers and the Welsh bac has got nothing to do with it Kirsty Williams AM: I am saying there is a variety Just like any other qualification there is a variety in how universities use qualifications for offers What I am saying to you is that in the conversations that I have had with Russell Group universities what they say is that there is certainly no detriment to any Welsh student undertaking this qualification They value the qualification They think it is useful It develops a set of skills that help students to make that transition into higher education And therefore I think it is a myth—I would go as far as to say that it is a myth—that Welsh students are disadvantaged in any way by taking this qualification Sorry Andrew Andrew Clark: Could I just add to that response ? There are obviously differences in the way that universities treat the skills challenge certificate and the Welsh baccalaureate which is the prime focus of this The attitude of the universities has changed significantly since that was a graded qualification Kirsty Williams AM: Yes that has made a difference Andrew Clark: And even those who do not make it part of their offer consider it exceedingly valuable in the way that young people are prepared to go to university and therefore as part of their personal statement as part of their interview the activity that the young person has taken by means of the skills challenge certificate is definitely recognised even by those who do not actually make it part of their offer So we are still on a journey—that graded qualification has only been taught for a couple of years but the journey is taking us to the right place towards the right destination Hefin David AM: So it is not just about variable admissions practices across universities it is to deal with the skills challenge certificate as well which needed changing in order to improve that Andrew Clark: But that was changed in September 2015 When it was a yesno qualification I think they held it in less regard than they do now that it is a graded qualification Kirsty Williams AM: And that is the conversation we had with some of our Russell Group universities Andrew Clark: And that was an important shift three years ago Hefin David AM: So last question then : are you absolutely confident that any concerns we are offering are nothing really to worry about ? Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to continue to communicate to all audiences the importance of this and the value of this qualification But I am confident that the university sector in its wide variety of forms regards the Welsh baccalaureate qualification as a valuable endeavour for Welsh students to undertake and they certainly do not regard it as a detriment to students","No, Kirsty Williams still showed confidence in the value of the baccalaureate. Despite the committee members' provision of contradictory evidence, he emphasized the importance of the communication with universities. Kirsty Williams believed that the baccalaureate was a beneficial endeavour for students to undertake before their entrance to the universities, rather than a detriment." Hefin David AM: But it will be presented to you as a submission from this committee no doubt Let us look at some admissions offers instead then You do concede that there is inconsistency with how admissions offers are made with regard to the skills challenge certificate How would you suggest that that is addressed ?,"Andrew Clark thought the inconsistency reflected the different ways that universities treat the skill challenge certificates and the baccalaureate, whose prime focus was individual ability. He added that the universities' attitudes had changed significantly since there was a graded qualification, for even those who did not make the baccalaureate part of their offer considered it a valuable sign that young people were prepared to go to university." "Lynne Neagle AM: Actually it is your set of questions next on universal adoption Suzy Davies AM: I will try and keep this on the shorter side if that is everybody You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption basically by 2020 I think it is or it might be 2019 What do you think universal adoption actually means ? What does it look like ? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption ? Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate I also recognise that in some individual cases there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the wellbeing of that particular student But when I talk about universal adoption I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation—that is the bit I am trying to get at Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm and if there are exceptions to that and there could well be for very legitimate reasons I think that that flexibility should be allowed But I think for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken Suzy Davies AM: so there is a presumption I think the performance measures probably are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders so I will not pursue that But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools were not particularly ready to offer a quality course ? Kirsty Williams AM: As we have rehearsed earlier it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners That is why there is existing support available and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a highquality manner Suzy Davies AM: Well that is going to take some time Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal rollout until you are absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered ? Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage I have no intention of pausing We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well— Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we have had evidence and you must have as well that not all schools are doing it Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications I do not know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we would not stop other qualifications and we would say Well there we are we have not got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well therefore we are going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject What we are saying is There is a responsibility on us on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well Suzy Davies AM: Is not it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that is badly delivered ? Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well Suzy Davies AM: Well I agree with you on that actually which is why I was a bit confused when you had some inyear additional money in this years budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia inyear—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching ? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate then I would expect the money to be spent on that Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement Therefore it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff We can not secondguess that and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and as I say it is not for all schools but bearing in mind we are facing evidence of polarisation of delivery I am just wondering whether there was not a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that are not delivering this well at the moment Kirsty Williams AM: Well again that is a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools in conjunction with the leadership of those schools to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent There is not a school that is fantastic at everything nor is there a school that is not good at anything if you know what I mean There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools It is for the regional consortia via challenge advisers and the headteacher to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school to ensure that all their teachers across the length and breadth of the curriculum are in a position to deliver goodquality lessons But we can not secondguess that Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment ? I will be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia Estyn the universities and the rest of what we call the middle tier to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues with the delivery of the Welsh bac those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so things like projectbased learning the kinds of things you talked about today moving away from a spoonfeeding model not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions So it is absolutely true to say that each individual school is different each individual practitioner is different but we must give the regions and the HEIs as it were a menu of things and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools Those weaknesses need to be addressed Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we are going forward towards Donaldson and I am sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future I am more concerned about this bac that is been around for 10 years and there is still as far as we can tell from the evidence that we have had poor delivery in some schools where there is the prospect of obligation on the horizon That was the thing that was worrying me Anyway thank you Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students You were saying it is an entitlement not an obligation but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it and schools are making young people do it So what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16 ? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said I hope that it becomes the norm that at post16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate because I think it is of huge value There may be circumstances that mean that the wellbeing of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round with the pupil and their parents about what is in the best interests of those pupils But I do think a situation where perhaps an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it is unsuitable for I find that very hard to believe but there could well be circumstances for a whole host of reasons where that particular qualification— And we would not want to jeopardise the wellbeing of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that was not in their best interests and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision but they should also then be accountable for that decision Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there is maybe a case for strengthening guidance then on this ? Because we have had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this and then the parents have rung Welsh Government and they felt undermined then So do you think there is a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges ? Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that As I said from time to time parents do indeed contact Welsh Government and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children Sometimes that can go from the extreme of I want my child to do five Alevels and I think that is in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge—I would argue that that is a myth around the need to do that many Alevels—through to Actually my child has a range of learning needs and actually this qualification is not suited to them Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that do not understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my childs ability and my childs wellbeing So there is a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate Some of those are very legitimate concerns Sometimes they are based on information that perhaps is not correct or the myths around I need to do five Alevels if I want to go to Cambridge Schools then have some flexibility I am aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge A conversation was had with the school They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year So they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification I am very pleased to say that we have had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his Alevels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University and that is about having the flexibility even at a school level to be able to respond to the needs of individual students","The committee members expressed their hope that all schools would be able to organize the baccalaureate, as well as its corresponding training courses. Via their professional programs, there would be more available support for teachers to ensure that they had the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Financial support would be provided as well." "Suzy Davies AM: Well I agree with you on that actually which is why I was a bit confused when you had some inyear additional money in this years budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia inyear—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching ? Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate then I would expect the money to be spent on that Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement Therefore it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff We can not secondguess that and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly","Kirsty Williams explained to the committee members that the funding would go via consortia to schools. Individual schools had the right to plan independently in which aspects they would spend the money in order to meet the professional learning needs of their staff. Thus, if the schools realized that they had particular needs for the baccalaureate, they would spend the money in the area to seek improvement." "Lynne Neagle AM: Just one final question from me on this then As you know mental health and the emotional health of our children and young people is a very core issue for this committee and Estyn have said that studying the skills challenge certificate alongside three or four Alevels is a significant factor in causing stress for some young people How do you respond to that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I would be the first to acknowledge that studying Alevels can be a very stressful time That is because students rightly regard those qualifications as high stakes and as having a profound effect on the opportunities for the rest of their lives So the mere fact of studying Alevels can be a really stressful time for students because they understand how important they are and students want to do well and they want to be able to move on to the next stage either of work or of university We also know—and Estyn reflects this—that students are also often trying to combine that with parttime jobs These students are of an age when they want to be out and about and earning some of their own money and being a bit more independent So that adds added pressure to them So undoubtedly this is a stressful time in young peoples lives and we need to ensure that there is support in school to support young people through this time to make sure that students are making the right choices in terms of their Alevels and the qualifications that they are doing so they are not having to do more because they are under the impression that by doing more that is going to make them more likely to succeed What we know actually is it is about the quality of what you do rather than the entirety of what you do that is important to universities and we need to make sure that students are getting really good information advice and guidance and support at what is a challenging time in their lives because of course it comes on top of working really hard for your GCSEs and then you have the following year ASlevel examinations and Alevel examinations after that So these are stressful times in childrens lives and they realise the importance of these as highstakes qualifications","Kirsty Williams admitted that the qualification examinations would bring pressure to students. In fact, as he pointed out, students were prone to form a wrong impression that the more they had achieved, the more successful they would get. Thus, he expressed his desire to guide the students to make the right decisions in terms of their A-Levels and baccalaureate." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you The next questions are from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: This is about the wider impact of studying the Welsh bac on other curriculum subjects and education provision and we have had representations in that it is causing some concerns So do you have any concerns about the effect that the Welsh bac may be having on wider education provisions such as the narrowing of the curriculum at key stage 4 ? Kirsty Williams AM: No Obviously schools are responsible for planning their local curriculum offer and that needs to meet the needs of their learners and it also needs to meet the needs of the Learning and Skills Wales Measure 2009 So there should be a wide variety of choices available I believe that the skills challenge certificate actually does ensure that there is a broad curriculum and that children are exposed to different learning opportunities And so rather than narrowing it I believe the Welsh bac helps us to make sure that there is an expansive curriculum and that lots of different issues are explored in the skills challenge certificate that ensure not just academic skills are developed but actually knowledge and skills of a wider range of subjects about you and your place in the world is available via this qualification Janet Finch-Saunders AM: thanks And then to what extent do you think that the Welsh bac should be give priority over other curriculum subjects ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I do not think it is— It should not be at the expense of other subjects It should be part of that wide range of opportunities that are afforded to students and I do not think it is more important or less important than other aspects of what we already ask schools to deliver Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about where we have taken representations that there is a lack of capacity in terms of all the extra pressures of studying the Welsh bac along with other qualifications ? I went to a school in Bangor and again as has been said here it is very polarised the evidence that we are taking—either some have found it very easy or some including teachers have found it extremely difficult to fit everything in and they do believe that there is a lack of capacity there Kirsty Williams AM: And the onerous nature and the consequences of workload for teachers is acknowledged by the Qualifications Wales work and review into the qualification and that is one of the things that we are looking to address so that the assessment arrangements and workload implications for teachers are not too onerous And if there is any element of duplication—students being asked to do things over and over—then that needs to be addressed as well and that is why there is this review by the design group Janet Finch-Saunders AM: thanks And then how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welshmedium provision ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is interesting is not it about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac ? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons and it is difficult sometimes to quantify what those are So for instance we often hear this along the border that because— The geography is not easy but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you do not have to do this Now the reasons for that could be very variable It could be about the nature of the offer We know that in some of our rural schools the secondary sixth forms are not able to offer a wide variety of Alevels and perhaps by going to a different institution a larger institution across the way then you can get that combination of the Alevels you want to do which simply is not possible if you do it in your home school Or we do have some consortia arrangements where Alevels are delivered across a wide variety of schools which require students to travel Some students do not want to do that they do not want to do their Alevels in three different schools but they would rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof And that means sometimes moving across the border or in the area I live children making the decision to go to Merthyr college because its a lovely beautiful new building the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of Alevels is available under one roof We looked at in particular also the perception of quality So if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny a school where in the past there have been I think within the community some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it is regarded as a good school And from that particular location you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer does very very well and has a beautiful building What we do if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown So the perception is This is a good school I am going to get a goodquality experience here and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else We also have to recognise that for some students staying in the sixth form is not what they want to do they want a different experience they want to go to an FE college They want a different experience So we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects and there is no hardandfast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we have had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening that is that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac That is exactly what was said to us But you do not accept that evidence Kirsty Williams AM: I am not saying that I do not accept it I am saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study I am not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on and that is easier to acknowledge is not it than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons Lynne Neagle AM: thank you The next questions then are on teacher learning from Suzy Suzy Davies AM: Actually I have asked the question that I wanted to ask Lynne Neagle AM: you do not want to— Suzy Davies AM: By all means you ask the others I had Lynne Neagle AM: You have referred to training already The committees got two concerns really One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac so I do not know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process which has not been without its pain and some significant decisions made in that regard the criteria for the ITE programmes note that and I am going to quote it : Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning bringing together different aspects to examine for example important topics such as citizenship enterprise financial capability and sustainability So the prime driver for our ITE reforms obviously is the preparedness for Successful Futures but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate So it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that as I said ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac Suzy Davies AM: In the preDonaldson period then bearing in mind what you have just said do you expect to see a surge in improvement on how the baccalaureate is taken up by those schools that are currently less keen on it ? Kirsty Williams AM: I hope that we will see increased numbers of students taking the qualification and an increase in the quality of that experience for young people As we discussed earlier we are not just waiting for the new graduates to come out of our ITE providers There is a whole cohort of the workforce already out there They should be given an equal opportunity to ensure that they have the skills to deliver on our curriculum reforms and our reform qualifications and every time the previous Government has brought in a reformed qualification there have been specific resources made available to ensure that teachers are in a position to do that So when we changed to maths numeracy a new qualification that was to be examined there was specific resource made available for the professional learning for teachers to make sure that they were in a position to do that and that is exactly the same as the offer that we have available for teachers who are delivering the Welsh bac Lynne Neagle AM: thank you And you have already said about continuing professional development that this is going to be a core part of the CPD Is there anything that you want to add on that ? Is it going to be fully integrated into the professional learning offer ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes absolutely There is already—I do not want to make the impression that there is not already support available out there There is already support out there via regional consortia for professional learning with regard to the Welsh baccalaureate There is existing support available from the WJEC with regard to Welsh baccalaureate and it will continue as we drive forward our national approach to professional learning And increasingly there are interesting ways in which we are supporting students so I do not know if Members are aware of the new MOOC The University of Bath one of the Russell Group universities delivered a MOOC for the extended project qualification in England Lynne Neagle AM: What is a MOOC ? Laughter Kirsty Williams AM: So it is an online—a massive open online course So it is a course that is delivered free of charge and it is delivered by information technology So the University of Bath have done this MOOC to support students with the EPQ They have just launched in conjunction with Aberystwyth University a bilingual MOOC for the individual project for Welsh bac It is our understanding it is the first ever Welshmedium MOOC we think we are not aware of any others And this resource is there for students to give them advice on how they do choose the thesis for their individual project : how do you go about then undertaking good independent research how do you reference properly to ensure that you do that correctly ? And we have seen over 1000 students already sign up for the MOOC So increasingly there are lots and lots of new resources out there for both teachers and students to make the most of And the fact that Bath and Aberystwyth have worked together on this I believe shows their commitment and a demonstration of their support for this qualification otherwise why would the University of Bath bother if they were not interested in it ? Lynne Neagle AM: Just one final question from me I have written to you about a young constituent who moved institutions and resat the Welsh bac but was not able because of the WJEC policy to obtain a higher grade in it because they have got a policy that the grade is capped when you resit it Given what the committees been told about the variability in the way this is taught in institutions in Wales do you think it is fair that young people should not be able to go and resit it somewhere else and get a better grade ?","Janet Finch-Saunders worried about the narrowing of the curriculum at Key Stage 4. Kirsty Williams assured her that the skill challenge certificate actually ensured a broad variety of choices available. He added that the Qualifications Wales had reviewed into the qualification to see whether the teachers were too onerous and if there was any duplication in students' examinations. As for the Welsh learners who chose England institutions instead of Welsh ones, Kirsty Williams explained that the reasons behind might be various and hard to quantify." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: thanks And then how do you respond to concerns that learners are avoiding studying the Welsh bac— where they can that is—by attending institutions in England or institutions that do not offer Welshmedium provision ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well it is interesting is not it about where children choose to study and whether they are motivated by the avoidance of the Welsh bac ? People make decisions about where to study for a whole host of reasons and it is difficult sometimes to quantify what those are So for instance we often hear this along the border that because— The geography is not easy but it can be relatively easy to go across into the English system and therefore you do not have to do this Now the reasons for that could be very variable It could be about the nature of the offer We know that in some of our rural schools the secondary sixth forms are not able to offer a wide variety of Alevels and perhaps by going to a different institution a larger institution across the way then you can get that combination of the Alevels you want to do which simply is not possible if you do it in your home school Or we do have some consortia arrangements where Alevels are delivered across a wide variety of schools which require students to travel Some students do not want to do that they do not want to do their Alevels in three different schools but they would rather go to an institution where they can do it all under one roof And that means sometimes moving across the border or in the area I live children making the decision to go to Merthyr college because its a lovely beautiful new building the facilities are absolutely fantastic and a wide variety of Alevels is available under one roof We looked at in particular also the perception of quality So if we take the example of King Henry VIII School in Abergavenny a school where in the past there have been I think within the community some concerns about the quality of that school—whether it is regarded as a good school And from that particular location you can quite easily get to Hereford college—a college that has a fantastic offer does very very well and has a beautiful building What we do if we look at the tracking of the students who have been retained in King Henry VIII as that school has been on its improvement journey and has done better and better and better the number of students that they are retaining into their sixth form has grown So the perception is This is a good school I am going to get a goodquality experience here and more and more students are choosing to stay in that school than perhaps make the decision to travel somewhere else We also have to recognise that for some students staying in the sixth form is not what they want to do they want a different experience they want to go to an FE college They want a different experience So we have to take into consideration that students could be motivated by a wide variety of subjects and there is no hardandfast evidence that it is avoidance of the bac that is the sole driver for some of these choices Sian Gwenllian AM: The evidence that we have had from one of the teaching unions—robust and clear evidence—is that this is happening that is that young people are leaving Wales to go over the border to schools in England in order to avoid the Welsh bac That is exactly what was said to us But you do not accept that evidence Kirsty Williams AM: I am not saying that I do not accept it I am saying that I think there are a wide variety of reasons why students make decisions about where to study I am not aware of any comprehensive piece of work that has looked at those motivations and I think there could be a whole host of reasons why children are deciding to move across the border Perhaps the Welsh bac is an easy one to place that hook on and that is easier to acknowledge is not it than saying that perhaps students are making that choice for other reasons","Kirsty Williams admitted that the crossing and moves were happening and did not deny the evidence as Sian Gwenllian implied. On the contrary, he believed that the reason behind the crossing was complicated and hard to quantify. He exemplified some of them: the eagerness to adjust to the English system, the nature of the offer (the combination of the A-Levels that institution offered), etc. In conclusion, Kirsty Williams believed that no effective evidence could demonstrate that the avoidance of the baccalaureate was the sole driver for the students choices to move to other areas." "Lynne Neagle AM: You have referred to training already The committees got two concerns really One is about preparedness in ITE to teach the Welsh bac so I do not know if you want to expand on how teachers are being skilled up at that level to deliver the Welsh bac effectively Kirsty Williams AM: In the accreditation process which has not been without its pain and some significant decisions made in that regard the criteria for the ITE programmes note that and I am going to quote it : Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning bringing together different aspects to examine for example important topics such as citizenship enterprise financial capability and sustainability So the prime driver for our ITE reforms obviously is the preparedness for Successful Futures but in preparing our teachers to be in a position to successfully deliver that those are also the pedagogical principles and that shift in pedagogy that we see aligned to the Welsh baccalaureate So it is actually a part of the accreditation process that the curriculum that the new ITE providers will have to deliver—ensuring that teachers have those skills and have that confidence to be able to deliver their teaching in a way that as I said ensures that we successfully deliver on Donaldson but also on the same pedagogical principles that are needed for the successful delivery of the Welsh bac","On the topic of teachers' training, Kirsty Williams quoted from the ITE programmes that Teachers should be able to help children and young people to make links across their learning, bringing together different aspects to examine important topics such as citizenship, enterprise, financial capability and sustainability. The shifts in pedagogical principles were expected accordingly." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning Thank you Chair Good morning Deputy Minister Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that as parents they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent How would you like to respond to that ? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Janet for that question I think I would like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment and that is in order to protect childrens rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults But I do understand that people have different views and that is why this process has been so important—for us to hear what your views are and what parents views are I know that often people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment I have heard expressions used such as a light smack or a loving smack or a tap and really there can be different interpretations of what is a light smack what is a loving smack and that does not really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken But I would say that however mild it seems to be the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children however minor is incompatible with their human rights and why should a big person hit a little person ? That is been the sort of mantra really that has taken me through supporting this legislation—that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening I believe we should not have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children and I do not think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children because I think it does send a confused message to children It says It is for me to hit you but do not you hit anybody else I think it causes confusion So I am confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children—and of course I am sure as you will have heard from the evidence you have taken that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation and the representative surveys that we have carried out show support for the Bills principles Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Deputy Minister Last week during the workshop a few parents—predominantly all of them actually—said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or sometimes for the safety of the child or indeed to carry out the parenting of a child How do you intend to work with parents going forward given the finite resources that social care and social services have ? I know from the responses we have received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day seven days a week they are really on the scale of things very upset about this How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children ? How do you intend to deal with that aspect ? Julie Morgan AM: Well first of all I want to say as I have said in most evidence sessions that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard It is very difficult many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be But we do not think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children There is a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children and advice you can give them of different methods to use But the clear message of this Bill is that we do not want any physical punishment we do not think it is the right thing to do and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view Lynne Neagle AM: You have got other questions Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Oh yes Several consultation responses refer to statistics from Sweden which they say show that childonchild violence actually increased by 1791 per cent between 1984 and 2010 following the ban on physical punishment in 1979 What is your view on these figures and how can we be certain that this Bill will not lead to other longterm negative outcomes in Wales ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I am aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics from Sweden What is happened really in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to have causation I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment the result is association with less youth violence and this is one of the largest crossnational analyses of youth violence with more than 400000 participants So there is other evidence very widespread evidence which looks at a whole range of people that is in contrast to the Swedish evidence But evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to childrens rights Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3 ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it yes The Bills explanatory memorandum says that there is no definitive evidence that `` reasonable '' physical punishment causes negative outcomes for children However we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for Public Policys report on which the explanatory memorandum is based very confusing and very frustrating and that it did not tie in with what they knew How would you respond to those viewpoints ? Julie Morgan AM: We were very keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could and we did not want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view So we were trying to give a balanced point of view but we did commission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we are honestly reporting to you what they said But they did make it clear again which I think I have said in previous evidence sessions that all physical punishment under all conditions is potentially harmful to children And certainly there is no peerreviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things has favourable outcomes So I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying because there is a lot of very strong evidence but we are giving you the evidence that we had from the research that we commissioned Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We have got some questions now from Suzy on implementation Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Chair I have just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps that will be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it will actually have You have probably heard in evidence that we have received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address malicious reporting some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line what is going to happen with outofhours provision from social services and so on There are still from our perspective quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceed with supporting the Bill ? Julie Morgan AM: Well it is very difficult bringing in this legislation that has not been done before It is very difficult to gauge the impact and we have covered that I know in previous discussions But I think it is very important to say that we are not creating a new offence The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault And I think it is an interesting point to make that in Ireland they introduced similar legislation through an amendment to a Bill and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill and in fact there is no evidence that this has caused any difficulties and no significant negative impacts or increase in workload But in any case we have our implementation group which is going to address many of these issues This met on 14 May That was the first meeting You see I think we do have to take a balance between assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do We can not presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill so we have to be staged in what we do But we had the first strategic implementation group on 14 May and we had representatives from the police the police and crime commissioners the Crown Prosecution Service the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru the Association of Directors of Education in Wales the Welsh Local Government Association the legal profession and the third sector They are all there and they are all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at the implications of it I would just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment They have set up four work streams looking at parenting advice and support data collection evaluation and monitoring operations procedures and processes and outofcourt disposals and diversions These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you have mentioned and will also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in I am really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way because we do have the commitment of all these agencies and there is been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that I have to say has not been done in some of the other countries—as I mentioned in Ireland So as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues and obviously those agencies that are taking part in the implementation group are on the whole in support of the principles of this Bill Suzy Davies AM: Well thank you for that Minister but the way I look at this is that you have already said that if this Bill passes—and it will pass it is in enough manifestos to pass so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass—and if there is a of let us say two years before anything is implemented and the implementation group is doing the work that you have described—and we are very relieved to hear that—why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group has not really come up with a strategy that could help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life ? You are asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this Julie Morgan AM: I think we have as far as possible looked at international evidence where this legislation has been introduced It is different for different countries so I know it is difficult to get anything that is absolutely linked But I do not agree that it is a bit of a chance really I think we are preparing very well and very carefully As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill lots of issues have arisen as they have done that and so you have to do that I think alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together and I think the point at which we have done that is probably just about right really Suzy Davies AM: I hope this is not going on to somebody elses questions but accepting what you say would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that may be of concern to them which have been fed through to us ? I am not suggesting anything specific but— Julie Morgan AM: No no I mean the position is that it is a very simple oneclause Bill We want to keep it as simple as possible but I am certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up and I think that is been the case all along Although our preference is to keep it simple Suzy Davies AM: I understand that It is just what is going to work as a bit of law here is not it ? And then just finally from me and you have made the point to a degree that of course not all countries are like Wales If we look at Ireland and New Zealands the one we have been looking at an awful lot which are the most similar their work has not really been in place for that long and one of the things that I think you are going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culture change to which we have already referred is going in one way anyway and if it continues to go in that direction that this Bill will have had a causal effect I am trying to establish whether the culture change is going to happen anyway whether or not we pass this legislation Julie Morgan AM: Well it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case but the culture change will never really move I think as most of us want it if there is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens So I think passing the legislation by itself will certainly not do everything— Suzy Davies AM: No And you will be aware that this is to go with it I get that but— Julie Morgan AM: You have got to have— And I think the research has all shown you have got to have an awareness campaign running along with it That is shown And in the other countries we have looked at I do not think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we think it is absolutely fair to the Welsh public as you said that they absolutely know what we are doing and everybodys aware of it So I think it is— Suzy Davies AM: Well can I just finish— ? Julie Morgan AM: I know the point you are making You are saying that this would happen in any case maybe But if you have got a bit of legislation there on the Bill it will always mean that for a very minority group of parents they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child and I just think it is something we should get rid of I think it is an anachronism and it is something we should— And I think Wales has been very strong on childrens rights We have got rid of physical punishment in schools child minders regulated care settings And of course the other point that I do not think we say enough about is that it is not just parents it is people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence So it is last bit in the jigsaw really to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that Suzy Davies AM: Well it is the argument you have made before I think what I was trying to get to is : how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively ? It is about the data capture I guess What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked or potentially not worked ? I would be surprised if that was the case but— Because of course that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you will be asking to collect the data Julie Morgan AM: Yes I think that is very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we will be bringing in So we will be having ongoing evaluation we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate We have got ongoing monitoring and we have got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public So yes— Suzy Davies AM: It will be directly linked to the Bill then rather than that broad culture change Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring asking the views of the public is generally about issues related to the Bill The views of parents about whether this legislation— Suzy Davies AM: Sorry I do not want to labour this point Julie Morgan AM: And awareness How aware they are Suzy Davies AM: Basically we need a question Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child ? That is the core question So phrase it differently yes ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes Well we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child but this is any physical punishment actually not just smacking— Suzy Davies AM: And it is for the future not for now Julie Morgan AM: —and how many actually are doing that And it is consistently going down as you said Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I do not want to take it any further","Julie Morgan thought there was a need for legislation to ban any physical punishment and this bill aimed at protecting children's rights. To ensure the effectiveness of the bill, there was an implementation group with representatives of the police, the crime commissioner, the Crown Prosecution Service, and the social service. Therefore, Julie Morgan was confident about the implementation of legislation. Furthermore, ongoing monitoring had been used to look for the view of the public and ongoing evaluation would come to practice in the next step." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning Thank you Chair Good morning Deputy Minister Of those individuals who responded to our written consultation in a personal capacity nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that as parents they understand clearly the difference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent How would you like to respond to that ? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much Janet for that question I think I would like to start by saying that child abuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment and that is in order to protect childrens rights and to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults But I do understand that people have different views and that is why this process has been so important—for us to hear what your views are and what parents views are I know that often people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment I have heard expressions used such as a light smack or a loving smack or a tap and really there can be different interpretations of what is a light smack what is a loving smack and that does not really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken But I would say that however mild it seems to be the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children however minor is incompatible with their human rights and why should a big person hit a little person ? That is been the sort of mantra really that has taken me through supporting this legislation—that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening I believe we should not have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children and I do not think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children because I think it does send a confused message to children It says It is for me to hit you but do not you hit anybody else I think it causes confusion So I am confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and people working with children—and of course I am sure as you will have heard from the evidence you have taken that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation and the representative surveys that we have carried out show support for the Bills principles Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Deputy Minister Last week during the workshop a few parents—predominantly all of them actually—said that they use a gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or sometimes for the safety of the child or indeed to carry out the parenting of a child How do you intend to work with parents going forward given the finite resources that social care and social services have ? I know from the responses we have received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day seven days a week they are really on the scale of things very upset about this How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raising children ? How do you intend to deal with that aspect ? Julie Morgan AM: Well first of all I want to say as I have said in most evidence sessions that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard It is very difficult many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be But we do not think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children There is a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bring up children and advice you can give them of different methods to use But the clear message of this Bill is that we do not want any physical punishment we do not think it is the right thing to do and we believe that we are supported by many people in that view",All forms of physical punishment including smacks from a loving parent should be prohibited by legislation to protect children's rights. There were multiple other ways to help parents bring up children rather than the physical punishment. "Suzy Davies AM: Well it is the argument you have made before I think what I was trying to get to is : how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively ? It is about the data capture I guess What are you going to do to make sure that you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked or potentially not worked ? I would be surprised if that was the case but— Because of course that has an implication then on the resources for the various people you will be asking to collect the data Julie Morgan AM: Yes I think that is very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we will be bringing in So we will be having ongoing evaluation we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate We have got ongoing monitoring and we have got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public So yes— Suzy Davies AM: It will be directly linked to the Bill then rather than that broad culture change Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring asking the views of the public is generally about issues related to the Bill The views of parents about whether this legislation— Suzy Davies AM: Sorry I do not want to labour this point Julie Morgan AM: And awareness How aware they are Suzy Davies AM: Basically we need a question Has this Bill stopped you smacking your child ? That is the core question So phrase it differently yes ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes Well we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child but this is any physical punishment actually not just smacking— Suzy Davies AM: And it is for the future not for now Julie Morgan AM: —and how many actually are doing that And it is consistently going down as you said Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I do not want to take it any further","Julie Morgan pointed to the importance of knowing the effect of legislation. To attain this goal, their team has put forward the ongoing monitoring and surveys in terms of the views of the public. In the following steps, ongoing evaluation would be added for independent individuals." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We are going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Morning Minister When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances anything that they see around somebody smacking a child That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services then would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them Are you fairly confident are you certain that that would not happen or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say Well actually if we are getting all these referrals we need to think again about when and if we intervene and the thresholds could become a bit lower ? Julie Morgan AM: Well as you know social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished—any sort of range of physical punishment—and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed but that is done on a casebycase basis it is made on the individual case element And of course there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse And if this legislation is enacted a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change And I know you took evidence from the ADSS and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence who is one of the lead practitioners and I understood she said : In terms of thresholds for childrens services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen So I think— Dawn Bowden AM: So it is the threshold for intervention that is the key really is not it rather than— ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes they do not see that changing Dawn Bowden AM: So they do not see that changing Julie Morgan AM: No no And we do not see that changing Dawn Bowden AM: that is fine The police when they came in to give evidence talked about the need for the multiagency safeguarding hubs And what we also heard is that it is a bit inconsistent across the country And I think you acknowledged that as well Do you think the implementation of the Bill and its effectiveness is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multiagency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country ? Julie Morgan AM: No The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs as we call them for short because bodies social services already work closely with the police on a daytoday basis really and they have indicated their willingness to do so and there are already wellestablished mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas and I know that it is— I think they are probably very good to have actually and very good to help the work but it is certainly not dependent on them Dawn Bowden AM: but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country ? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force but they do not operate in exactly the same way And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs but have not actually brought any in And a multiagency strategic group which is led by South Wales Police has been set up and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales so it is very possible there will be more MASHs but I want to reiterate that we are not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working But they are welcome—very welcome Dawn Bowden AM: Yes because the key point from the polices point of view I think was that they provide a single point of contact so it is very simple is not it ? It is a single point of contact and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions—well the police do not prosecute but charges and so on So it was just a point that they were raising Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed but it is certainly not essential Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it is probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things again that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group looking at processes and procedures We are very alert to the fact that there are different organisations different services and that bringing them together working in as consistent a way as possible is really really important As the Minister has said social services the police and others are already committed to working together and actually we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible recognising that not every area will have a MASH and reiterating again what the Deputy Minister has said—that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way Dawn Bowden AM: that is fine Thank you very much The other response that we have received is from social workers And they have talked about the fact that the social workers workload is already very stretched and you will be aware of that Minister And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload and how effectively they could deal with that Would you say that those concerns in terms of the impact of this Bill are unfounded or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage and we are going to have to wait and see ? Julie Morgan AM: Well first of all if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do Because obviously they are going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill I was a social worker myself so I am very happy to pay tribute to them Laughter But they do do a hard job which is not always recognised I think by the public So I do take this point very seriously but obviously the professionals who have given evidence—many of them have said they do not see there being a big rise of referrals Jane Randall National Independent Safeguarding Board—I think she came to you—said : there is no expectation that there is going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals…I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources I mean there may be an increase in reporting of incidents initially maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity which I think others—I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there would be an increase a small increase at the beginning But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we will be giving to parents—we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time And we do not really see that there will be an increase But I know that social workers are stretched and are hardpressed—and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers But I think it is important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities So we are going to work very closely with social services—obviously key members of our implementation group—and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation in order to get a baseline We want a baseline and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed and I mentioned Ireland earlier So I do not think really we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed but we must be prepared and we must get this data and monitor it closely Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course And social services clearly having to make judgments every day—they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around The Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service when they spoke to us also had—there was a similar kind of concern raised They did say that they felt that they probably did have adequate resources to support the Bill But do you think there is any danger at all that it could divert CAFCASS staff if we have a high volume of reporting particularly given that we have got a 26week limit in which to deal with those cases ? Is that something that causes you any concern at this stage ? Julie Morgan AM: Well CAFCASS are confident that they can deal with the cases that they have As you know there is been a big increase in the numbers that CAFCASS is dealing with already and they have managed to very successfully cope with the demand So I have got every confidence that they will be able to cope with it Dawn Bowden AM: Because they were basically just saying that it is unpredictable at this stage were not they so— ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes It is unpredictable Our best views are that it will not— Dawn Bowden AM: Yes because they were talking about the fact that no assessment had been made about the risk of malicious reporting We talked about that in a number of sessions with the police and so on So I think their biggest concern was more about the rise in lookedafter children and the impact on that in terms of their workload and it was just a question of whether this would potentially divert any resources I guess Julie Morgan AM: I think in terms of the malicious reporting obviously that is something that happens a lot now and it is is likely that perhaps— I think they felt that in existing cases this might be another element that should be brought in but they seemed in my discussions fairly confident I know they appeared before the committee and they are coping very well But obviously another area we are very concerned about is the rise in the number of lookedafter children and that is somewhere we want to try to do what we can to bring that down Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Just before Suzy comes in with a supplementary—CAFCASS did not come to the committee they have submitted— Julie Morgan AM: They sent a letter—that is right Yes sorry about that Suzy Davies AM: Just very quickly because I do not want to spend a lot of time on this : is not it going to be true that any increase in workload for social services or schools or whoever is going to depend on reporting rising ? Where do you see the likely rise in reporting taking place ? Will it be members of the public or is it going to be professionals who feel that this is something that they can not ignore from now on ? Julie Morgan AM: well I think it would be mixed I do not have any view or where it particularly would come from because if there are any reports that go into agencies now about children being physically punished in any way—I think they investigate those already now But I suppose members of the public might report if they see any physical punishment going on They would be made much more aware we hope by the legislation—so that may happen But I think in schools if there is physical punishment reported by a child the schools would report it in any case But I think it is likely that there will be a small rise Suzy Davies AM: I was just curious about where you thought the main source would be— Julie Morgan AM: I can not really be definitive about that Lynne Neagle AM: The next questions are from Siân Gwenllian","Julie Morgan answered questions about the bill's impact on other agencies, including the social service, MASHs, CAFCASS. Morgan emphasized the dependence of their work as well as the feasibility of workload changed by the bill." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We are going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Morning Minister When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances anything that they see around somebody smacking a child That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services then would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them Are you fairly confident are you certain that that would not happen or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say Well actually if we are getting all these referrals we need to think again about when and if we intervene and the thresholds could become a bit lower ? Julie Morgan AM: Well as you know social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished—any sort of range of physical punishment—and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed but that is done on a casebycase basis it is made on the individual case element And of course there is a distinction between reasonable punishment and child neglect or abuse And if this legislation is enacted a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures and we do not expect the threshold of significant harm to change And I know you took evidence from the ADSS and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence who is one of the lead practitioners and I understood she said : In terms of thresholds for childrens services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen So I think— Dawn Bowden AM: So it is the threshold for intervention that is the key really is not it rather than— ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes they do not see that changing Dawn Bowden AM: So they do not see that changing Julie Morgan AM: No no And we do not see that changing Dawn Bowden AM: that is fine The police when they came in to give evidence talked about the need for the multiagency safeguarding hubs And what we also heard is that it is a bit inconsistent across the country And I think you acknowledged that as well Do you think the implementation of the Bill and its effectiveness is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multiagency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country ? Julie Morgan AM: No The effective implementation of the Bill does not depend on MASHs as we call them for short because bodies social services already work closely with the police on a daytoday basis really and they have indicated their willingness to do so and there are already wellestablished mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas and I know that it is— I think they are probably very good to have actually and very good to help the work but it is certainly not dependent on them Dawn Bowden AM: but it would be something that you would be wanting to see developed that eventually we would have these MASHs right across the country ? Julie Morgan AM: At the moment there are three MASHs in the south Wales police force and one pilot MASH in the Gwent police force but they do not operate in exactly the same way And I know that other areas have considered having MASHs but have not actually brought any in And a multiagency strategic group which is led by South Wales Police has been set up and it will consider the effectiveness of MASH arrangements in Wales so it is very possible there will be more MASHs but I want to reiterate that we are not dependent on MASHs in order to have the close working But they are welcome—very welcome Dawn Bowden AM: Yes because the key point from the polices point of view I think was that they provide a single point of contact so it is very simple is not it ? It is a single point of contact and I think they were quite concerned that having that single point of contact might actually reduce the level of unnecessary police prosecutions—well the police do not prosecute but charges and so on So it was just a point that they were raising Julie Morgan AM: I think they are very effective and very much to be welcomed but it is certainly not essential Karen Cornish: I was just going to say that it is probably worth saying that looking at how agencies work together will be one of the things again that will be looked at very carefully on the task and finish group looking at processes and procedures We are very alert to the fact that there are different organisations different services and that bringing them together working in as consistent a way as possible is really really important As the Minister has said social services the police and others are already committed to working together and actually we just want to make sure that we develop those working practices in the best way possible recognising that not every area will have a MASH and reiterating again what the Deputy Minister has said—that the effectiveness of the Bill is not predicated on a MASH in every area but it is important that all those organisations do work together in a consistent and appropriate way","Julie Morgan and Karen Cornish thought it was really important for agencies, like social services, the police, MASHs to work together in a consistent and appropriate way. However, the team was not dependent on others' work, considering not every area would get their help." "Dawn Bowden AM: that is fine Thank you very much The other response that we have received is from social workers And they have talked about the fact that the social workers workload is already very stretched and you will be aware of that Minister And I think they were getting a little bit concerned about whether a whole raft of new cases are going to land on what is an already extremely heavy workload and how effectively they could deal with that Would you say that those concerns in terms of the impact of this Bill are unfounded or are we just saying that this is an unknown quantity at this stage and we are going to have to wait and see ? Julie Morgan AM: Well first of all if I can just pay tribute to the work that social workers do Because obviously they are going to be essential to the successful implementation of this Bill I was a social worker myself so I am very happy to pay tribute to them Laughter But they do do a hard job which is not always recognised I think by the public So I do take this point very seriously but obviously the professionals who have given evidence—many of them have said they do not see there being a big rise of referrals Jane Randall National Independent Safeguarding Board—I think she came to you—said : there is no expectation that there is going to be a huge increase in the number of referrals…I think it would be dealt with within their existing resources I mean there may be an increase in reporting of incidents initially maybe from individuals in the community and organisations such as schools And I think it could have an impact on the initial stages of social services activity which I think others—I think Sally Jenkins said that maybe there would be an increase a small increase at the beginning But as we expect the awareness raising and the ongoing support that we will be giving to parents—we do feel that the incidents of physical punishment will be falling over time And we do not really see that there will be an increase But I know that social workers are stretched and are hardpressed—and I think that was some of the evidence given to you by the British Association of Social Workers But I think it is important to remember that they are also very strongly in support of us carrying out this legislation But it is important to look at the realities and the practicalities So we are going to work very closely with social services—obviously key members of our implementation group—and we will collect relevant data for a period before the actual implementation in order to get a baseline We want a baseline and we are working with a small number of social services to try to get the baseline of where it is and to see what happens when the Bill is implemented The evidence from other countries is that they certainly have not been overwhelmed There have been reports in New Zealand that they have not been overwhelmed and I mentioned Ireland earlier So I do not think really we have to fear that social services would be overwhelmed but we must be prepared and we must get this data and monitor it closely Dawn Bowden AM: And I guess things will level out in due course And social services clearly having to make judgments every day—they will be making those judgments quite quickly and turning them around","Julie Morgan first paid tribute to the work done by social workers. Then, Morgan gave examples from the professionals that there had not been a big rise of referrals, but a slight increase at the beginning which was estimated to fall over time. Moreover, he indicated that a baseline would work in the future to see what exactly happened." "Sian Gwenllian AM: The Bill in essence is a simple one of course is it not ? But what it does is provide a useful discussion on what good parenting is and what discipline methods are the most effective—that is discipline methods that parents can use rather than physical punishment Do you think therefore that there is a need to invest much more in programmes to do with parenting and in support services for families in terms of parenting and that as part of an early intervention strategy that is more coordinated and robust than what we have at present ? Julie Morgan AM: Well we are developing the Bill as part of a much wider package of support for children and their parents which of course is already in place This obviously includes the Parenting Give it time campaign which aims to help parents do the best job that they can by providing positive tips on parenting and information And we are already preparing now to update that because of course that only goes up to age 7 and deals with issues about how you cope with your kids if they are difficult at meal times and if they have tantrums It is very well used by parents But of course this legislation will go up to 18 years old and so the issues may be very different So we are already starting to prepare to update that Parenting Give it time campaign And then obviously there is the universal services that give access to help and to promote positive parenting delivered by local government health education social services social justice and the third sector We will be encouraging all those agencies that provide that universal service to help support parents and to pass on this information Then there will be the more targeted supports such as Flying Start and Families First which offer help and advice But what I have done is I have asked the officials to carry out a mapping exercise to see where the support is and where the gaps are or opportunities to do more particularly around information and advice on positive alternatives to physical punishment but also more widely So we are looking to see where the gaps are I think parents do tend to use information and try to get help in many different ways A very large number actually do use the internet I was surprised actually that so many used the internet to get information Others ask their mothers their families their friends and go to agencies It is such a wide range that we need that mapping exercise and we need to see where we need to put in more support Sian Gwenllian AM: I am pleased that you are going to conduct that exercise because the evidence that we have received from a number of different directions is that there is not enough investment in reality in the support services in the early years and that there is a real need for the focus within Government go back to early intervention and to have a much more coordinated strategy You have mentioned a number of agencies working on different elements perhaps but perhaps there is a need to bring them all together You talk about the Parenting Give it time campaign but I think it is an online campaign effectively and Flying Start—yes people who attend those courses find them useful but of course it is not available across Wales and it is not available to every parent There is a scheme that is available through schools in Gwynedd—perhaps you are aware of it—Incredible Years with Professor Judy Hutchings who has been working on this for a number of years now very successfully where schools parents and the children work together on parenting methods that are positive I wonder if it is time to think about expanding that as part of an early intervention strategy across Wales Perhaps you can not give a specific answer today but may I ask you to take a look at that ? What concerns me is that the Bill is going through but there is not enough work relating to education and having peoples support for different methods more positive methods in my opinion of parenting There is a real need to move and to invest in that area and perhaps move money towards that work Julie Morgan AM: Well certainly I think that is the purpose of the mapping exercise to see what is successful where things need to be expanded and that is what we are going to consider Incredible Years—I know it is very successful I am aware of that programme I think there are patches all over Wales of really good progress but certainly I am sure we need to give more support to parents in the early years and I think they are only too glad to have it as well Children are very receptive at that age and early intervention is the key to many of the issues that we have to deal with later on Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We are going to return to some of the parenting issues later but in the meantime we have got questions from Hefin David Hefin David AM: Just to take it on the next step from what Siân Gwenllian was asking about—in schools are teachers ready for this legislation ? Julie Morgan AM: On our implementation group the education sector is represented They have come to the first meeting of the implementation group So they are going to be fully involved in the preparation Obviously corporal punishment was banned in schools a long time ago and I think the education sector is very supportive of this move But in terms of the awareness for teachers to be ready for it—obviously the awareness campaign has got to be aimed at professionals in every field and certainly aimed at teachers Hefin David AM: So if I was a teacher in an individual school what kind of preparation do you think I should expect ? Julie Morgan AM: You know this better than me having been more in the education field than me but I think teachers are updated on different parts of childcare legislation now and have inservice training days and training courses And certainly perhaps this would be part of that—part of the training that teachers get This would have to be incorporated into that Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they would not want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets Would you agree with that ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already actually I would not have seen it would need something completely separate Hefin David AM: So you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training ? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they are already doing Hefin David AM: And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal ? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal They already have training courses about childcare issues and this would be something that would be absorbed into that Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again ? I am not sure I caught that Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to Karen because you were at the group ? Karen Cornish: Yes So education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we are setting up that the Ministers already talked about And we have also had conversations with all of the trade unions I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them Hefin David AM: The things that are being raised so far—would you say they are reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about for example funding of training ? Are those kinds of issues raised ? The practical implications of introducing this Bill—are they raised ? If not what other issues might be raised ? Karen Cornish: So I think that the main concerns that you have already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously So there is not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed either with the trade unions or through the implementation group or during the consultation period And as the Minister said for the majority of these sort of things teachers education and other workforces already have procedures in place because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and therefore education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed There is a wider context here Minister I do not know whether you wanted to say anything about the wellbeing and the— Julie Morgan AM: Yes One of the things that I think this committee has been involved in is we want to have a wholeschool approach We want mental health and wellbeing to be part of the way that the whole school operates and the culture and how schools engage with pupils and parents And we want to create that atmosphere where there is no wrong door where children can bring up any of the concerns that they have with any member of the school staff that they trust And obviously the school staff is wider than the teachers And so I think the creation of that sort of atmosphere is very important in taking forward this issue Hefin David AM: I appreciate that I think the Bill though introduces a very specific set of changes that— Julie Morgan AM: It removes the defence that is all the Bill does Hefin David AM: But should a parent witness now smacking then it will require a different kind of approach—sorry if a teacher were to witness smacking it would require a different kind of approach perhaps to existing approaches There should not therefore be any surprise amongst teachers in how to deal with these things when the Bill comes in I suppose the question I am asking is : can we be assured that nothing you have said today in this meeting in this committee should be a surprise to teachers and trade unions because that would already have been communicated through the Bill implementation group ? Julie Morgan AM: Yes well Karen has already said about the meetings that she is had with the unions and they are present on the implementation group but a lot of these things happen already They already have to make decisions about physical punishment they may be told about by children for example—probably more likely than actually witnessing anything And they already have to make decisions on those sorts of issues so I see this as being incorporated in with that Hefin David AM: With regard to health and the communication of this to parents we have heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents awareness Do you think that is the case ? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial because obviously the health visitor is there right at the beginning It is a universal service and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they are able to do at the moment because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals are not able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they would like families to go So I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors and obviously they support it strongly because they are trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now but with their hands slightly tied behind their back because the defence does exist Hefin David AM: That is great that is a good thing but the concern we have got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme and in my community within the Aneurin Bevan health board area 80 per cent of parents are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme So are there concerns that if you rely too much on that process for communication then parents particularly in the early years will be left out ? Julie Morgan AM: We have got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen But I think we have had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we have already mentioned that we are going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more and that is where we will identify this Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts because I am— That figure— Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half but that is exactly the kind of age when you would expect more children to— If they were going to be smacked it would be at that sort of age would not it really ? So that is a concern for the committee really in terms of coverage Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that although I would— Midwives health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages core messages about setting boundaries managing behaviour discipline positive parenting right from the very beginning So reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate because I think there is a period from birth through to actually later as well when those key health messages those key messages around positive parenting are and can be given As the Minister said we will be mapping a lot of this but we can give you some more advice on that if that would be helpful about the types of messages that are given during that period of time Lynne Neagle AM: Yes I think that would be helpful I have got some supplementaries on this because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half a big chunk of families are not having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor really Suzy then Siân Suzy Davies AM: Thank you It is also a time in their childs life when they are likely to be spending time not with their parents in school or early years And I just wanted a bit of clarification from you Minister on what you were saying to Hefin David about training here I got the sense you thought this could just be slipped in as a paragraph in existing guidance but I am not clear about what happens to a teacher who is told by a child that they have been smacked and they decide that they are not going to report that—will they get into trouble over that ? If it is part of a bigger picture that a teacher should have picked up that is different but if a child tells a teacher Oh Mammy smacked me because I did such and such is that teacher going to get into trouble if they do not report that to the police ? Julie Morgan AM: If that happens now the teacher is expected to report that now I think they usually call in social services Suzy Davies AM: Oh it goes to social services But that clarity is needed as well Julie Morgan AM: Yes That is what happens now so would you expect a teacher to do it yes Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes I am just interested to hear a bit more about the mapping exercise that you have referred to which I think is really important but it is going to show up a lot of gaps geographically but also in service provision for different groups of families It is all very well doing a mapping exercise but what is the purpose of that and how are you going to ensure that those gaps do not exist in future ? Maybe we could have a note about what the timetable is for this exercise and more indepth understanding perhaps about what your intentions are and how you intend to take it forward once you have done the mapping exercise Julie Morgan AM: Yes We absolutely acknowledge that there is a lot more work to be done and we know that we have to work hard at this to reach every family Obviously the information that we have had about the Healthy Child Wales the health boards will be monitoring that information and will be— I think they are going to establish a project board to consider the themes that are coming out from the Healthy Child Wales and so that will be certainly addressed there And we will absolutely acknowledge that we expect that there will be work to be done Sian Gwenllian AM: And there will be investment needed obviously to fill in those gaps which means a significant shift in the way Government now looks at its budget and a shift towards that early prevention Julie Morgan AM: I think we all agree that early prevention is the key for happy healthy children and so we will certainly consider everything that arises","As for the parenting issues, the legislation would go up to 18 years old, providing parenting information of different ages. Also, a mapping exercise would be carried out by officials to clearly identify existing gaps and opportunities to do more. As for school issues, teachers would learn childcare legislation by attending training courses, and the group committee would provide procedures and processes needed to deal with different cases. The discussion then further talked about health and communication problems, including the promotion of the work of health visitors, teachers' responsibilities, and the intentions for mapping exercise in the next step." "Hefin David AM: One of the things that the National Association of Head Teachers told us was that they would not want the cost of that kind of training to come from core budgets Would you agree with that ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I would have thought this sort of measure would be incorporated into the training they were using already actually I would not have seen it would need something completely separate Hefin David AM: So you think it should come from the core budget that they use for training ? Julie Morgan AM: I think it could be incorporated in what they are already doing Hefin David AM: And do you think that would be a significant additional cost or do you think that that would be minimal ? Julie Morgan AM: I would have thought it would be minimal They already have training courses about childcare issues and this would be something that would be absorbed into that Hefin David AM: You mentioned the implementation group and the fact that educators are represented on it Can you just be a bit clearer about how they are represented again ? I am not sure I caught that Julie Morgan AM: Do you want to Karen because you were at the group ? Karen Cornish: Yes So education are represented on it through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and they have a representative on the strategic implementation group and we are working with them to understand who else will be on the task and finish groups that we are setting up that the Ministers already talked about And we have also had conversations with all of the trade unions I personally went and spoke to them earlier in the year when the Bill was being introduced received their feedback and have said that I will go back and speak with them Hefin David AM: The things that are being raised so far—would you say they are reflective of the concerns that the NAHT rose about for example funding of training ? Are those kinds of issues raised ? The practical implications of introducing this Bill—are they raised ? If not what other issues might be raised ? Karen Cornish: So I think that the main concerns that you have already heard as a committee are similar concerns to those that have been raised previously So there is not anything in addition to the things that we have discussed either with the trade unions or through the implementation group or during the consultation period And as the Minister said for the majority of these sort of things teachers education and other workforces already have procedures in place because this comes under a safeguarding issue at one level There are procedures and processes that are already there that they all follow The ask will be based around those safeguarding procedures and therefore education and other services update their processes and procedures on a regular basis as a matter of course when any issues like this are addressed There is a wider context here Minister I do not know whether you wanted to say anything about the wellbeing and the—",Julie Morgan thought the cost of training would be minimal as teachers had had courses about childcare issues and something about the bill would be absorbed into that without any additional fund. "Hefin David AM: With regard to health and the communication of this to parents we have heard about the Healthy Child Wales programme and the fact that it has the opportunity to play a role in raising parents awareness Do you think that is the case ? Julie Morgan AM: I think the Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of the health visitor is absolutely crucial because obviously the health visitor is there right at the beginning It is a universal service and so there will be great opportunity for them to promote positive parenting in a much stronger way than they are able to do at the moment because the fact that you have this defence does mean that the professionals are not able to make it as clear as they want to make it that positive parenting is the way that they would like families to go So I think this will be a great advantage to health visitors and obviously they support it strongly because they are trying to encourage parents not to use physical punishment now but with their hands slightly tied behind their back because the defence does exist Hefin David AM: That is great that is a good thing but the concern we have got is that half the parents across Wales are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme and in my community within the Aneurin Bevan health board area 80 per cent of parents are not accessing the Healthy Child Wales programme So are there concerns that if you rely too much on that process for communication then parents particularly in the early years will be left out ? Julie Morgan AM: We have got to rely on a range of ways of reaching parents and I think that there are other times when there is a much higher ratio of children and families seen But I think we have had that discussion with the mapping exercise that we have already mentioned that we are going to identify where there are gaps or where we can do more and that is where we will identify this Karen Cornish: I think as well that that figure relates to one contact point across the whole of the Healthy Child Wales programme not the Healthy Child Wales programme as a whole Maybe we could come back with some further information about the contacts because I am— That figure— Lynne Neagle AM: The percentage relates to the contact at age three and a half but that is exactly the kind of age when you would expect more children to— If they were going to be smacked it would be at that sort of age would not it really ? So that is a concern for the committee really in terms of coverage Karen Cornish: I can appreciate that although I would— Midwives health visitors and others working with families would actually be giving those messages core messages about setting boundaries managing behaviour discipline positive parenting right from the very beginning So reliance on that single point of contact at that one age point is not necessarily the most appropriate because I think there is a period from birth through to actually later as well when those key health messages those key messages around positive parenting are and can be given As the Minister said we will be mapping a lot of this but we can give you some more advice on that if that would be helpful about the types of messages that are given during that period of time Lynne Neagle AM: Yes I think that would be helpful I have got some supplementaries on this because I think the committee is concerned that at a key opportunity at age three and a half a big chunk of families are not having that contact that they should expect with their health visitor really Suzy then Siân","The Healthy Child Wales programme and the role of health visitors were really crucial as providing universal service. Based on the bill, they could promote positive parenting by encouraging parents not to use physical punishment. As for people who did not access the Healthy Child Wales programme and the issues regarding coverage, the group would identify the gaps and relative measures with a mapping exercise." "Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1 I was not hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill It seems to be relying to a great extent on the limited number of reporting of cases that is likely to happen as we have seen in the evidence we have received That is largely been recognised by the stakeholders who have given evidence but is not there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this and what planning have you done for those unknown costs—those unforeseen costs—that might occur ? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that— You are right that there always could be unknown costs but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate For example I have committed to fund the highintensity awarenessraising campaign and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support We know that evidence from other countries does show that if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness it does change peoples attitudes so there may in the long term be a saving if we do that But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we are able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is But I just have to repeat that all our evidence looking at other countries is that there is not a huge increase in the workload Hefin David AM: No I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children and therefore there will be a number of differences as well The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations which we talked about the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children All those things we have talked around but what would be reassuring for the committee is perhaps if you could give us a broad figure which the Government would say We will need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill ? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us Certainly the CPS say that they can cope CAFCASS say that they can cope And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services The people who are managing social services say they do not anticipate a big impact I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people So the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time so it is not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already including reasonable punishment And so it is not a new category of work I accept that we are working in a situation where there is a general pressure on public services but I think this area that we are legislating on here is part of what everybodys doing already And so I do not see it as such a big thing in terms of impact Hefin David AM: That is a perfectly reasonable answer but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside ? Julie Morgan AM: I do not think it is possible to do that We have to measure it as we go along We have got to get the data The data will show— We have got to have baseline data to begin with and that is what is so difficult to get because we can not get that from other countries Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation and they did that for three months beforehand That is why we have been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time just to make predictions But we have got to rely on the data One of these subgroups is looking at data so that subgroup should be very productive I think And then we will be actually able to see what happens But I do not think we can respond to that Hefin David AM: that is fine And the last question with regard to resourcing just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting—did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Ministers officials to discuss the costing of this ? I imagine so What was the nature of that kind of discussion ? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided For example the advertising the awarenessraising campaign—that is £22 million over six years So the decision has been made about that I do not know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process Karen Cornish: There have been discussions The discussions tend to be positive We can not really say any more beyond that at this moment in time Hefin David AM: And who were the discussions with ? Karen Cornish: There has been an intheround discussion before the Bill was introduced at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present Hefin David AM: And I imagine it is gone to Cabinet for discussion Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet and gone through Cabinet processes as you would expect Hefin David AM: So are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there is not going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill ? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward I think you can say that Hefin David AM: Did you want to come in ? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes Are you satisfied that that amount of money—£25 million over five years correction : £22 million over six years—is going to be enough ? From memory with the organ donation Bill the amount was something in the region of around £7 million that was set aside I think Or maybe I am misremembering that but— Karen Cornish: I think it was about £4 million— Lynne Neagle AM: So there is a disparity then That was a few years ago You have got to reach a lot of people have not you with this including some pretty hardtoreach groups as well Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough ? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign we are as I say as confident as we can be based on what we know Hefin David AM: I just wanted to ask a very specific question on human rights because you know when it comes to appeals there are a variety of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights that might be used with regard to a challenge to the law as enacted So I will ask you the question very directly For the purpose of the record can you outline to us the assessment you have made in preparation for this Bill in relation to the balancing of relevant articles of the European Convention on Human Rights including but not limited to article 8 on the respect for private life article 9 freedom of conscience and religion article 3 the right to protection from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment and article 14 protection from discrimination ? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much We have given a great deal of thought as you can imagine to the human rights considerations as set out in our impact assessments and it is ultimately a question how we find a balance between the rights of children as well as parents who both enjoy rights under the European Convention on Human Rights So article 3 is the prohibition of torture : No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment In ensuring that children are protected from physical punishment in the same way as adults the Bill is following that requirement of article 3 and the positive obligations on states to protect individuals from ill treatment or punishment that is contrary to article 3 And then in terms of article 8 right to respect for private and family life Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life his home and his correspondence Some of those who are opposed to the prohibition of physical punishment have cited article 8 private and family life and also cited article 9 freedom of thought conscience and religion as potentially protecting the right for parents to decide how best to punish their children including the use of physical punishment That is used as an argument by those who are opposed to stopping physical punishment But these rights are not absolute and action can therefore be taken that interferes with them provided the interference is justified It is the Governments view that the Bills provisions are necessary in order to protect the rights and freedom of children We are looking here from the point of view of children The Bills provisions are regarded as proportionate measures and given the fundamental importance of protecting children from inhumane or degrading punishment or other ill treatment we do consider that we have balanced the rights in a proportionate way And then article 10 freedom of expression and article 14 prohibition of discrimination—these rights are not absolute and action can be taken therefore that interferes with them providing the interference is justified We do not think it is clear that article 10 and 14 rights are being interfered with but even if they are we consider we can justify the interference in order to protect the rights and freedoms of children I do not know Emma whether you wanted to add anything to any of that Emma Gammon: Only that we set out— I think it is the equality impact assessment that sets out the positive and negative impacts of the proposal and the balancing of the rights enjoyed by both parents and children","Julie Morgan said the team had done their best preparation to cover all eventualities, such as the awareness-raising campaign, a mapping exercise, and the arrangements of organizations. Later on, Morgan told something about an in-the-round discussion with the Cabinet, where some costings had been decided." "Hefin David AM: When you first appeared before the committee at the beginning of Stage 1 I was not hugely reassured by the evidence you gave on the resource implications of the Bill It seems to be relying to a great extent on the limited number of reporting of cases that is likely to happen as we have seen in the evidence we have received That is largely been recognised by the stakeholders who have given evidence but is not there still the potential for a degree of unknown costs to come into this and what planning have you done for those unknown costs—those unforeseen costs—that might occur ? Julie Morgan AM: I feel that— You are right that there always could be unknown costs but we are doing our very best to prepare to cover all eventualities that we can anticipate For example I have committed to fund the highintensity awarenessraising campaign and committed to carry out a mapping exercise to establish whether there are any gaps in the parenting support We know that evidence from other countries does show that if we bring in this legislation and raise awareness it does change peoples attitudes so there may in the long term be a saving if we do that But we are committed to working with organisations to put in place arrangements so that we are able to collect the data so that we know what the impact is But I just have to repeat that all our evidence looking at other countries is that there is not a huge increase in the workload Hefin David AM: No I think you can make the argument for precedent elsewhere but you can also say that every country has a different culture and approach to how it raises children and therefore there will be a number of differences as well The explanatory memorandum raises some specific cases It talks about unknown costs in relation to social services as a result of a potential increasing referrals family courts and CAFCASS Cymru as a result of a potential increase in allegations which we talked about the CPS and a higher volume of requests for charging advice from the police and the review of training and guidance offered by organisations involved in the safeguarding of children All those things we have talked around but what would be reassuring for the committee is perhaps if you could give us a broad figure which the Government would say We will need to set this number aside in order to be prepared for the implementation of this Bill Would you be willing to present that at some point during the passage of the Bill ? Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to rely on what the people who run those organisations are telling us Certainly the CPS say that they can cope CAFCASS say that they can cope And it is very difficult to anticipate what impact there would be on social services The people who are managing social services say they do not anticipate a big impact I think the other important thing to recognise is that this area of work is already dealt with by all these people So the CPS is already involved in changing its guidance all the time so it is not going to be much of an impact for them to actually have to do that over this issue Social services are already dealing with calls and referrals about the physical punishment of children already including reasonable punishment And so it is not a new category of work I accept that we are working in a situation where there is a general pressure on public services but I think this area that we are legislating on here is part of what everybodys doing already And so I do not see it as such a big thing in terms of impact Hefin David AM: That is a perfectly reasonable answer but then what about providing a ballpark figure for a kind unforeseen fund that you might set aside ? Julie Morgan AM: I do not think it is possible to do that We have to measure it as we go along We have got to get the data The data will show— We have got to have baseline data to begin with and that is what is so difficult to get because we can not get that from other countries Only New Zealand recorded any incidents before they actually brought in the legislation and they did that for three months beforehand That is why we have been looking at New Zealand a lot of the time just to make predictions But we have got to rely on the data One of these subgroups is looking at data so that subgroup should be very productive I think And then we will be actually able to see what happens But I do not think we can respond to that","Morgan admitted the existence of unknown cost but emphasized the best preparation done by the team to cover all eventualities. As for public service, the team relied on the information gained from the organizations and Morgan pointed out legislation was put on to the part where public service had been dealing with and for that, there would not be a big impact." "Hefin David AM: that is fine And the last question with regard to resourcing just to understand the process of how this ties into the wider budgeting—did you and your officials sit down with the Finance Minister and the First Ministers officials to discuss the costing of this ? I imagine so What was the nature of that kind of discussion ? Julie Morgan AM: Some of the costings are decided For example the advertising the awarenessraising campaign—that is £22 million over six years So the decision has been made about that I do not know if there were further discussions right at the beginning of this process Karen Cornish: There have been discussions The discussions tend to be positive We can not really say any more beyond that at this moment in time Hefin David AM: And who were the discussions with ? Karen Cornish: There has been an intheround discussion before the Bill was introduced at which the First Minister and the finance Minister and others were present Hefin David AM: And I imagine it is gone to Cabinet for discussion Karen Cornish: The consultation and then the Bill going forward has been discussed by Cabinet and gone through Cabinet processes as you would expect Hefin David AM: So are we able to say that the Government as a whole is satisfied that there is not going to be a huge impact on resource as a result of the introduction of this Bill ? Karen Cornish: I think what you can say is that the Government are satisfied that they are supportive of the Bill and have put the Bill forward I think you can say that Hefin David AM: Did you want to come in ? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes Are you satisfied that that amount of money—£25 million over five years correction : £22 million over six years—is going to be enough ? From memory with the organ donation Bill the amount was something in the region of around £7 million that was set aside I think Or maybe I am misremembering that but— Karen Cornish: I think it was about £4 million— Lynne Neagle AM: So there is a disparity then That was a few years ago You have got to reach a lot of people have not you with this including some pretty hardtoreach groups as well Are you confident that amount of money is going to be enough ? Karen Cornish: We are as confident as we can be at this moment in time We are obviously going to be working with focus groups and others to look at what sorts of messaging there will need to be But in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign we are as I say as confident as we can be based on what we know","The amount of money decided on the awareness-raising campaign was £2.2 million over six years. With the organ donation bill, it was about £4 million. Karen felt confident with the amount in terms of the initial stages of the awareness campaign." "Industrial Designer: Components design first of all I would like to accommodate some of those things I elaborate some of the things I did I I elaborated on the concept What should be said about the components its properties and what kind of materials should we use to to make one of those r remote controls well first of all I have d subtracted some of the components that is that are used are w w you know from what the remote controls formed first of all the case the case the surrounding of the of the the remote control I would like to give you an idea of how I thought about Marketing: Do not destroy my giraffe Industrial Designer: the case was is made from rubber I suppose There is one of the because when you use a remote control a lot of people will will drop their remote control and they break becau the titanium was also an option But it is a very expensive material rubber is I think the best suitable material to use for our for our remote control it is poss it is also possible to create fancy colours with rubber rubber l makes it easy to to to it let us let us itself colour titanium you have to paint it and with that it is possible to scratch it or make it ugly rubber the total piece of rubber that is sor that is that is used to make the case is the same colour so if you scratch it it is still the same colour perhaps it is a little bit damaged But it is a very strong material I h I had an idea single covered curved sorry single curved so it is t two dimensional I think it is it is best to draw oh Marketing: Bright colour Fancy colour Forward You have to go t Industrial Designer: Let us make it black I thought of an idea like this Oh that delete Blank So it also looks nice when it is on your table So you get it does not lay flat down on the table but it is c it is stands Marketing: Oh it is a side view Industrial Designer: Side view yes it is side view so I I am not technically good at th three D modelling it is just an idea I had so it is it is very so its also looks nice when it is on the table the graphical user interface and the buttons we also thought about that already I thought about the LCD touch screen which is is easy to clean too One of the great advantages of the LCD screen you just use some or another cleaning cl some cleaning stuff And it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright Well I already s explained some properties of that material and I think well we also we almost concluded about that this should be our button component So that is all about the buttons the batteries we also thought about that already will be chargeable with an option for a mount station so you can put the the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of plugging it in or something like that Questions ? Marketing: No no no no no Just looking Industrial Designer: And they should be long lasting not not be empty in about two minutes or thirty minutes or forty minutes of use And next step is the chip th the component that is makes or transmits the signal to the television there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think because of our highly requiring requirements there should be an advanced chip in it with also the ability to facilitate speaker speech recognition which unfortunately is still in a test phase so there should be some more investigation on that side my personal preferences I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use our own business colours That was correct was not it ? I think they are rather boring for for use with rubber Project Manager: Well business colours I thought it was the the slogan and the corporate image so it needs colour Industrial Designer: they should be m sh they should be in mind Project Manager: but I do not think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour Industrial Designer: was not it ? so it d it does not says to have the slogan ? Well that is possible of course User Interface: You can put the R and R Industrial Designer: We could make a little R and R on the top of the machine so they are pretty boring I suggest because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours and also in a lot of possible colours so it is possible to make very fancy remote controls which peopl who people in which people will find they are interesting And will buy them faster when they look at the same old grey or black colours s as I said before rubber is is impossible to damage severely imp instead of of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that but i if you drop it it is not broken right away s instead of using plastic hard plastic or titanium And I personally liked the single curved remote control because it it makes sense Well that is all about my my findings User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface how it should look And we determined that will not be no buttons but only an LCD screen so I had to look on that And the design is therefore based on what we just thought of first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition And this is that you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you And they already put this in an in a coffee maker And so that it you say good morning coffee maker and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what is your name This and there is an easy way to program that you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer perhaps it is useful perhaps for because people lose the remote they can yell remote where are you and calls or something And perhaps we could implement that And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like but I can not draw so do not make too much of it I tried to the LCD screen I tried to sort of to draw I thought at least the icon for the volume I do not know if there is an icon for the program but and then the buttons above and below the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon Marketing: Where is where is the button for two ? User Interface: I forgot that one I thought I forgot something And and the numbers that should be a bit larger I think it is not really on scale and and so forth an options button And I thought the the button for teletext apar apart because it is not really options I think It is options is the settings of the remote and of the TV and that kind of thing So could call it settings or something But this is a bit how I thought it And the LCD somewhere on the remote Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should so that it is better in your hand or something But and and a microph microphone for the speech recognition if we want to implement that and then if you press the op options button now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this And it is also I thought think we discussed earlier that older people do not really want to use these extra settings And older people a also do not really want to use this th this kind of option menus So they want to you use one button and then something happens and not choose with this kind of And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your remote so you could scroll scroll across these things That is an option And that was my finding dinge Project Manager: team member with his presentation Marketing: I am going to tell you something about a trend watching The trends from the past years what the people like what the youngsters like what the elderly people liked about shapes colours material and stuff Kay The method I used was Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours shapes material they wanted from elderly and young people So we can keep that in mind for designing f the device itself Findings I made The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative like the LCD screen that is quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this And the third thing is it should be easy to use I think with only one menu four button channel volume it should also be enough for easy to use The personal preferences for the young people they liked fruity colours like banana yellow strawberry red and stuff Like that The round shapes and soft material m materials like the rubber It should be soft i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things User Interface: Let us build it into a sponge Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like woods dark brown red deep reds and stuff They liked square shapes with round edges And hard materials like wood titanium They those kind of materials they liked This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours innovative all the colours you see the blue the red the white the yellow that stuff And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like this or something It is it is a bit like a banana And the colour should be yellow or something And for the elderly people just plain old Because we decided to have two kind of remotes two designs or was it two colours ? User Interface: It was one remote I think Marketing: We should decide whether it is going to be with round shapes I think like my colleague you said is that is e better or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something with round squares Simple but Project Manager: So for the older people a more traditional form Marketing: That is my like the older o older colours I can maybe User Interface: You could you could change the colours that was also the idea I do not know which shape you should should take Marketing: Colours th the elderly people Project Manager: I guess changing colours will be easier than changing Industrial Designer: Changing just the shape of the remote control ? User Interface: Perhaps you could find something in the middle Round but square Industrial Designer: round corners but s but square Project Manager: But maybe then both groups will not buy it User Interface: i i if you do it square with round corners but a little in the middle of it i Do you know what I mean ? Industrial Designer: I know what you mean kind of like a User Interface: wait like like this a bit So it is a bit square but it is also a bit round Industrial Designer: Kind Of like a beer glass I know what you mean User Interface: Same sides But that is Industrial Designer: It is also easy to to have to to put in your hand User Interface: but that is also how other remotes are shaped so that is But perhaps that is a good thing so that is easy to use People know the Industrial Designer: Will recognise that is as a remote control Marketing: Look something like that Autumn colours like red brown Industrial Designer: when I saw your d Oh Marketing: They liked the wood a lot So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour Industrial Designer: kind of like old cars Marketing: And a bit bit old school style renaissance medieval kind of things Industrial Designer: Let us put it all together Marketing: Those kind of those kind of things So you see the big difference between the young people ? Fresh exciting And the old people old and boring User Interface: But that is easily to do with the colour I think That is easy to do with the colours I think Marketing: I think it is it is easier to do in colour than in shape Because otherwise we have to get different shapes and colour way easier than the shapes In material rubber rubber is like I said young people like more soft materials and spongy ones and the old people like plain wood So we have to decide if we are going to use real hard rubber or soft rubber Or something something between that which you can you can feel in it User Interface: I do not think you should be able to mould it Industrial Designer: It should should not be Marketing: No Or or wh what is something harder No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something That is the bit you can press it in User Interface: Bit like this kind of rubber This But it is quite hard this Marketing: it is quite hard but you can press it in It is feels kind s spongy User Interface: I do not think it is rubber Project Manager: So we need a spongy feeling User Interface: did you have something about Marketing: Are you going to invite Sponge Bob maybe he can User Interface: So we should first decide about shape I think Marketing: I think that is the better thing to do User Interface: Then you can fit the LCD screen in it Industrial Designer: I also s can not help but notice that you used an you had a remote control and the LCD screen was rather small Marketing: w I think that LCD screen should be like User Interface: it it is supposed to be bit s bit s bit Industrial Designer: but I think it should be larger Marketing: three quarter of the of the Industrial Designer: three quarters So so you do not have to put your oh Marketing: the buttons will not get that small when the LCD screen is Industrial Designer: new blank So when you get this Or should it be larger ? Larger ? Because you want to put your hands User Interface: Now you can put your hand there and then you will not touch the screen But not on the screen because that is that is an idea Looks a bit like a Game Boy now Industrial Designer: Because when you put your f but if yo if you make the the LCD screen as large as the remote control itself you will you will always get some Going to be very greasy and stuff Marketing: But it will not get that small because you have how much ? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen One to zero the two digit Industrial Designer: you do not want it too small How how large Marketing: You have to you have to Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time Industrial Designer: they have thick fingers But if you want to make it in international Japanese people got rather small hands and we got these large Marketing: but we have we have the zoom option right ? Industrial Designer: Zoom opt Ah of course You can make it larger to to to with accompanying greater fields to push the button Project Manager: And we will not include a a pen or something to point","Industrial Designer expressed a desire to make remote control from rubber and LCD touch screen. Industrial Designer designed a remote control chargeable with a mount station instead of plugging it. In addition, User Interface emphasized that the remote control should not only have an LCD screen, but also some necessary buttons. Marketing introduced watch trends about colours, shapes and material of remote control from the past years. Based on the analysis of marketing, the group did a discussion about target people and made initial design decisions." "User Interface: I thought a little bit about the interface how it should look And we determined that will not be no buttons but only an LCD screen so I had to look on that And the design is therefore based on what we just thought of first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition And this is that you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you And they already put this in an in a coffee maker And so that it you say good morning coffee maker and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what is your name This and there is an easy way to program that you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer perhaps it is useful perhaps for because people lose the remote they can yell remote where are you and calls or something And perhaps we could implement that And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like but I can not draw so do not make too much of it I tried to the LCD screen I tried to sort of to draw I thought at least the icon for the volume I do not know if there is an icon for the program but and then the buttons above and below the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon Marketing: Where is where is the button for two ? User Interface: I forgot that one I thought I forgot something And and the numbers that should be a bit larger I think it is not really on scale and and so forth an options button And I thought the the button for teletext apar apart because it is not really options I think It is options is the settings of the remote and of the TV and that kind of thing So could call it settings or something But this is a bit how I thought it And the LCD somewhere on the remote Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should so that it is better in your hand or something But and and a microph microphone for the speech recognition if we want to implement that and then if you press the op options button now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this And it is also I thought think we discussed earlier that older people do not really want to use these extra settings And older people a also do not really want to use this th this kind of option menus So they want to you use one button and then something happens and not choose with this kind of And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your remote so you could scroll scroll across these things That is an option And that was my finding dinge","User Interface thought speech recognition function was useful because people always lost remote control. It would be easy to find with a microphone in the remote. The basic design of remote control would include volume and program icon, buttons move and mute, recognisable and scroll function in the curvy shape. This design would mainly be toward young people." "Marketing: I am going to tell you something about a trend watching The trends from the past years what the people like what the youngsters like what the elderly people liked about shapes colours material and stuff Kay The method I used was Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours shapes material they wanted from elderly and young people So we can keep that in mind for designing f the device itself Findings I made The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative like the LCD screen that is quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this And the third thing is it should be easy to use I think with only one menu four button channel volume it should also be enough for easy to use The personal preferences for the young people they liked fruity colours like banana yellow strawberry red and stuff Like that The round shapes and soft material m materials like the rubber It should be soft i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things User Interface: Let us build it into a sponge Marketing: Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like woods dark brown red deep reds and stuff They liked square shapes with round edges And hard materials like wood titanium They those kind of materials they liked This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours innovative all the colours you see the blue the red the white the yellow that stuff And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like this or something It is it is a bit like a banana And the colour should be yellow or something And for the elderly people just plain old Because we decided to have two kind of remotes two designs or was it two colours ? User Interface: It was one remote I think Marketing: We should decide whether it is going to be with round shapes I think like my colleague you said is that is e better or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something with round squares Simple but Project Manager: So for the older people a more traditional form Marketing: That is my like the older o older colours I can maybe User Interface: You could you could change the colours that was also the idea I do not know which shape you should should take Marketing: Colours th the elderly people","Marketing introduced watch trends in shapes, colours, material and functions from the past years. In Marketing's data, young people prefered fruity colours, round shapes and soft material. In contrast, elderly people liked dark colours, square shapes with round edges and hard material." "User Interface: I had what I just I should again I miss a few buttons but Well At least what we should also have on I just remembered a menu to go back through the first if if you touch options you can not go back to this right away now Marketing: Mmhmm you have to go back Is not it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal ? With the minus and the plus I think it is easier than User Interface: I do not know I I thought it was easier to handle this way but I do not know what they think Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical ? Industrial Designer: Depends on the screen If you make the screen vertical it does not matter If you make it in a rectangle User Interface: Right well if we make it like this I think if you Industrial Designer: I so it is it is it is it is Marketing: I think it is it is easier to have it something like Oh a button minus here plus over here A minus here plus over here The other buttons and on here the top The options and then you have something like the P over here User Interface: But I think I wou I think that is a matter of what you are used to I think I would put a plus and a min here And then the P in the mid in the middle and the sound in the middle but I think when you are holding it you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus Marketing: I think you are going to s you are going to use it with one thumb User Interface: but I think I do not know Perhaps I have some examples Industrial Designer: We will leave that to the usability engineering then Marketing: Who is the usability engineering ? User Interface: But I am going to look if I have got some examples because perhaps you should choose what is most often used The Because they can use that better Marketing: Oh I have that those s numbers User Interface: I Here is our here are I do not really know Project Manager: Everybodys searching in his data Marketing: Channel selection Per hour one hundred and sixty eight Volume selection four times an hour User Interface: but But I mean if it is usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote Industrial Designer: So not how much n not how often it is used but User Interface: W what is what is usual or normal Marketing: that depends on on on the remote User Interface: Yes I am looking here But here is it is below here also and now here is here is next to each other I think it is it is a Marketing: I think because I have two televisions at home One is horizontal one is vertical Industrial Designer: it does it does not really matter User Interface: I think the the the volume was usually above each other because you go higher and down And the the pay the the the program is next to each other because you would go further and back That is how it is is usually when I look here that is what I see Industrial Designer: Let us cut to the chase Marketing: It is got to change Project Manager: well I think we have we do not have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons Marketing: is it is user interface User Interface: This concept is in the actual design but you should know where you would place a And the speech shall we implement that ? Or Project Manager: well we just heard about the new technology huh ? Marketing: I think it is it is easy for that where are you but then it says I am here User Interface: But then you should also find a place You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something You can talk into the corner Industrial Designer: because a lotta you can make a very sensitive microphone so it makes it possible to just put it arou underneath it or on the on the bottom of the remote Project Manager: maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there is also a microphone User Interface: So in the middle or something Industrial Designer: But that is not import I think that is not i am very important because it does not matter where the microphone is User Interface: but you should decide where you want to put it Marketing: I think where it is not seen Industrial Designer: Underneath ? Indeed It should not be very visible User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it because it is the the unique idea of our remote huh the the speech control User Interface: So where do you want to put it ? Project Manager: Well maybe where the one hand Industrial Designer: but it does not makes it any more fancy because you get to see User Interface: actually it does because it you can you can find it better if you use it It is a way for you to So it makes more sense just because other remotes do not have that Project Manager: But are we talking about the button or about the microphone ? because a microphone is very small thing but you can make it look like it is big so as its its really an important function of the remote Marketing: I think the left s under corner should be the best Where is not i it is not most in sight Industrial Designer: Well put it there I do not mind That does not does not really matter Project Manager: type supplements anything well we already s discussed that huh the the LCD Industrial Designer: supplements well the supplement is to Marketing: I think I thought the like you said like scroll next to the remote is not that handy I think it is better to just up what you would like to do on the screen If you want to go back you have to back button go back if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s submenu User Interface: the the young people do like scroll Industrial Designer: Use the scroll I think so too Marketing: ? You do like it ? Industrial Designer: So why not on on side User Interface: Or at least I do not know if it is really the scroll but the menu they like most and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll Industrial Designer: Fast So if you have got a settings if you Marketing: I think it is is faster Becau I think the scrolls easier if you have a lot of options but if you do not have a lot of option then User Interface: But you have it is f Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options User Interface: we have five or four or something Industrial Designer: because when you use you get w when you use the settings menu for example to look up some some channels on your on your television you should scroll scroll down on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen So then it is very handy to to scroll down you make just a rubber just like on your mouse or Just put it on the side and it is very easy to use Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side","User Interface designed position of normal and usual buttons such as plus, minus, sound and program. Project Manager suggested the microphone was a special point so it should be placed visibly. Then User Interface decided to put the microphone in a company logo. Marketing thought scroll was convenient, Industrial Designer agreed and designed scroll on the side. Project Manager thought remote control would be fancier with scroll." "User Interface: And the speech shall we implement that ? Or Project Manager: well we just heard about the new technology huh ? Marketing: I think it is it is easy for that where are you but then it says I am here User Interface: But then you should also find a place You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something You can talk into the corner Industrial Designer: because a lotta you can make a very sensitive microphone so it makes it possible to just put it arou underneath it or on the on the bottom of the remote Project Manager: maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there is also a microphone User Interface: So in the middle or something Industrial Designer: But that is not import I think that is not i am very important because it does not matter where the microphone is User Interface: but you should decide where you want to put it Marketing: I think where it is not seen Industrial Designer: Underneath ? Indeed It should not be very visible User Interface: You could p you could put it in a logo of the company Project Manager: maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out Marketing: I i between the round of the R Project Manager: because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it because it is the the unique idea of our remote huh the the speech control","Marketing thought it was easy with a microphone on the remote control so that it was easy to find. User Interface agreed and thought it was better to put the microphone in a corner. Industrial Designer thought no matter where the microphone was, it would not be visible. So where to place didn't matter. Project Manager thought the microphone should be in an important position to see because it was a special selling point of remote control." "Marketing: I think I thought the like you said like scroll next to the remote is not that handy I think it is better to just up what you would like to do on the screen If you want to go back you have to back button go back if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s submenu User Interface: the the young people do like scroll Industrial Designer: Use the scroll I think so too Marketing: ? You do like it ? Industrial Designer: So why not on on side User Interface: Or at least I do not know if it is really the scroll but the menu they like most and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll Industrial Designer: Fast So if you have got a settings if you Marketing: I think it is is faster Becau I think the scrolls easier if you have a lot of options but if you do not have a lot of option then User Interface: But you have it is f Industrial Designer: You have a lot of options User Interface: we have five or four or something Industrial Designer: because when you use you get w when you use the settings menu for example to look up some some channels on your on your television you should scroll scroll down on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen So then it is very handy to to scroll down you make just a rubber just like on your mouse or Just put it on the side and it is very easy to use Project Manager: And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side","At first marketing thought scroll was not as handy as buttons but Industrial Designer placed the scroll on the side and made it very handy to scroll down. In addition, Industrial Designer thought scroll could control the menu even if the remote control did not fit the screen. User Interface said young people were interested in scrolling. Project Manager thought scroll would make remote control fancier as it was interesting." "Project Manager: So Experience with remote control first ideas New remote So I guess we are looking at having a discussion at this point in time to help you folks design our our new model as it were So any any thoughts ? Industrial Designer: I with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they are quite hard to press so maybe we make something with easy to press buttons As that is the main function Project Manager: so so basically we are looking for some we are looking for a device that is robust and and therefore will not get damaged too easily we are looking for a device that is What was the other things you said there ? Industrial Designer: sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible is easy to use and see User Interface: Can I just check ? Is this just a television remote ? Because a lot of systems are kind of TV video combined now or TV DVD combined And one of the most annoying things is having like five remotes in the house So if you have got a combined system it could be a combined remote Or is it just a television that we are supposed to be doing ? Project Manager: Oh I w basically I will get back to you on that But it seems to me sensible because as you rightly said there is nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the about the room So a device for for all remotes Industrial Designer: Sorry you go You go Marketing: I have one of the things we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well Because there is quite often lots and lots And sometimes they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you are sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room So whereas in the past you would have to get up to change the channel now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote So so I do not we need to sort of maybe think about how we could maybe develop a remote control which moves around the room That is that is maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television but Project Manager: But is it in a sense it is r mutually exclusive You can not have both the th the one device and then have few buttons on it to because you want you want simplicity as well you want any idiot to be able to use it Whilst at the same time you want as you rightly said one remote for all And so these are probably mutually exclusive options you could argue that experience of using devices and similar devices as people get more and more used to using remotes therefore they are more with handling them therefore you can make them more complicated as time goes on Industrial Designer: Maybe we could have better instructions with the remote Or are we just doing the design of the remote control itself or sort of the instructions that would come with it ?","The team agreed that the device needed to be robust so that it wouldn't get damaged easily. As for the features, the team believed that fewer buttons on the remote control would make it easier to use. Besides, a combined remote was favoured, as it can be a device for more than one remote. However, the team believed that the two features are mutually exclusive." "Project Manager: So Experience with remote control first ideas New remote So I guess we are looking at having a discussion at this point in time to help you folks design our our new model as it were So any any thoughts ? Industrial Designer: I with some remote controls the buttons were a little small so they are quite hard to press so maybe we make something with easy to press buttons As that is the main function Project Manager: so so basically we are looking for some we are looking for a device that is robust and and therefore will not get damaged too easily we are looking for a device that is What was the other things you said there ? Industrial Designer: sort of easy to use so the buttons are accessible is easy to use and see","Industrial Designer thought that a remote with more accessible buttons can make it easier to use, as some of the buttons of the remote he used were too small to press. He also suggested that the remote needs to be robust, so that it would not be damaged easily." "Project Manager: because as you rightly said there is nothing more annoying than having three or four devices littered about the about the room So a device for for all remotes Industrial Designer: Sorry you go You go Marketing: I have one of the things we found from the market research is that people often get confused by the number of buttons on them as well Because there is quite often lots and lots And sometimes they sort of remote controls defeat their own purpose because you are sat in the chair and the remote is somewhere else in the room So whereas in the past you would have to get up to change the channel now you have to get up to sort of pick up the remote So so I do not we need to sort of maybe think about how we could maybe develop a remote control which moves around the room That is that is maybe something for the future when you can talk to your television but","He suggested that they could develop a remote control which moves around the room, so that the customer does not need to get up to pick up the remote in the other room. However, he also made clear that it is only an idea for the future." "Marketing: I mean we have done some research about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are and a lot of them sort of use you know they are like they are like mini laptops So it is possible that we could devise a system where where you are you are basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television your stereo and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well maybe Project Manager: well we have got five minutes before the end of the meeting So we have to start winding up is there Next meeting in thirty minutes So Right so we have got ID the Come on where is my Marketing: If you just click return it should be It will get rid of the message If you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message Project Manager: That is what I was looking for Right So we have got function Oh what happened to the User Interface: I think that might be back to the start if you grab the kind of slide to the left and pull it down ? Project Manager: Right Right Sorry about that so we have got the working design for ID For UID the technical functions design Marketing the user requirement specification Specific instructions will be sent to you by your person by your personal coach So Are we all clear what objectives we are looking to meet in the next thirty minutes ? And I guess I will try and write up some minutes of this meeting to to give it to you for the next meeting User Interface: I am not exactly clear on what we are designing the rem remote for Is this a mun multifunctional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? Industrial Designer: I think you just said at the start it was a television remote control so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise Project Manager: That is true because during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we are going But at this point in time I think you are right that shall we make it just a TV ? So we will depart","Marketing suggested that they could develop the remote control into a hand held mini laptop, so that it could control all sorts of appliances. But at the end of the meeting, they made the decision that the new remote control would not be a multi-functional one, and it would only be designed for television." "Marketing: I mean we have done some research about sort of you know what the cutting edge sort of hand held devices are and a lot of them sort of use you know they are like they are like mini laptops So it is possible that we could devise a system where where you are you are basically sort of holding a a miniature computer which is controlling all your your sort of your television your stereo and where you know if you buy a new thing then it sort of you can link it to that as well maybe Project Manager: well we have got five minutes before the end of the meeting So we have to start winding up is there Next meeting in thirty minutes So Right so we have got ID the Come on where is my Marketing: If you just click return it should be It will get rid of the message If you hit just hit return and it should get rid of the message Project Manager: That is what I was looking for Right So we have got function Oh what happened to the","Marketing suggested that they could devise a new system for the remote control, and make the remote into a miniature laptop. The reason for the occurrence of the idea is that there are already many kinds of cutting-edge remote controls in the market, and the multi-functional remote could control all sorts of appliances in the house." "User Interface: I am not exactly clear on what we are designing the rem remote for Is this a mun multifunctional one or do we decide that ourselves as we go away and work on it ? Industrial Designer: I think you just said at the start it was a television remote control so maybe we should just stick to that unless we get told otherwise Project Manager: That is true because during during the course of our day we might make decisions based on information or meetings that would change where we are going But at this point in time I think you are right that shall we make it just a TV ? So we will depart","Industrial Designer thought that they should stick to the idea of traditional television remote control, instead of a multi-functional one." "Industrial Designer: well I would th think that depends on how much money you give us because you know you can you can make it you have different choices with different financial models Project Manager: but before we talk about the finance do you have some idea how we can sell this product or project in the market and how much is going to benefit to the company and of course it is to the individual also Industrial Designer: Well you know I kind of think that in general you have to do y you have to have something that is very fashionable that is very attractive that people see and recognize its goal and they immediately want to have it have one of their own So it would really would need to something like the iPod would be good seems to have caught on fairly well so d you know I do not care what it does just so it looks cool Project Manager: but when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? Industrial Designer: Well I have got a lot of other projects I am doing right now and so I will have to wait and see how those how those go If they go quickly then it could be a month If if I run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months","By taking the example of iPod, Industrial Designer believed that the remote control should be fashionable so that people can instantly recognize its value and have the urge to possess one." "Project Manager: so just let me know so I can coordinate all the teams Industrial Designer: I will get back to you on that Project Manager: Yes Thank you And Ed so what is what do you think about this project for the remote control and d do you have some already planned something for your marketing strategy or the sales strategy ? Marketing: Well not yet other than doing research and taking remote controls and looking what other companies have to do what they are building their designs their ideas also have to pinpoint which market we are going to go into It should be a fairly large market because the number of people that the competition th I agree it has to be something it has to be something new it has to be something that that draws people saying eh I like this Whether it works or not they have to first say I like this I like the design and then it is got to be simple to use","By doing research on other companies' design and ideas, Marketing pointed out that the market the remote control aimed at should be a fairly large one and that the product itself should have a brand new, attractive design and be simple to use." "Project Manager: Yes so can you explain what exactly the product is ? Marketing: From what I had in mind we are supposed to be marketing coffee is that right ? Project Manager: Oh I think if I am not wrong we are making the remote control Marketing: Remote controls because I had two different things I had a first part of mine was to make a remote control for a new f remote control for television and afterward I had a discussion about coffee so we will start with the remote control for television then So we are have to design something that is very user friendly Something visual that has something that will will draw people to buy the product because I think everybodys experienced with remote controls and some remote controls are are worth throwing out the window th most of them ar I do not know we are have to come up with a new idea on how to make it a lot easier to use because a lot of times spend half a day through the instruction book trying to figure out how to use it","Marketing pointed out that the remote control for television should be user-friendly, with a visual feature to draw the attention of customers and that new ideas should be put into thought on facilitating its usage, so that users could avoid spending too much time on the instruction menu." "Project Manager: but when you think you can give me like a kind of design on the functional design or the technical design ? Industrial Designer: Well I have got a lot of other projects I am doing right now and so I will have to wait and see how those how those go If they go quickly then it could be a month If if I run into any problems in my other projects it might be six months Project Manager: but I need something in the writing so like what is your functional design what is your technical design and how many people you need for this project and what is the time frame you are looking and what is the budget maybe initial budget you are looking and how is going to the market so you have you have had to meet with the marketing team and how they are going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan when are you going to introduce and by the time you introduce the product and you know there there would be a competition so I need some kind of the plan in the writing from you and it is po Industrial Designer: And when would you like that ? Project Manager: B as soon as possible Industrial Designer: well if if we have enough time then d do you think two weeks is a is close enough ? Project Manager: Yes I think that would be good because I need to go to the management and tell them what we are going to do and what cost is and what is the time frame and what is the project plan because without any documentations I can not go to the management and say so we are going to do this and we need this much money so then it is it is difficult for me to say that is the reason I need some kind of plan from you initially then we can have the further discussion again","Project manager needed the following subjects to be presented in writing form, including functional and technical design, team scale, timeline, initial budget, cost limit, marketing strategic plan, product introduction, benefits for the company and for each individual. These matters should be determined before further discussion." "Project Manager: but I need something in the writing so like what is your functional design what is your technical design and how many people you need for this project and what is the time frame you are looking and what is the budget maybe initial budget you are looking and how is going to the market so you have you have had to meet with the marketing team and how they are going to market and what are the marketing strategic plan when are you going to introduce and by the time you introduce the product and you know there there would be a competition so I need some kind of the plan in the writing from you and it is po Industrial Designer: And when would you like that ? Project Manager: B as soon as possible Industrial Designer: well if if we have enough time then d do you think two weeks is a is close enough ? Project Manager: Yes I think that would be good because I need to go to the management and tell them what we are going to do and what cost is and what is the time frame and what is the project plan because without any documentations I can not go to the management and say so we are going to do this and we need this much money so then it is it is difficult for me to say that is the reason I need some kind of plan from you initially then we can have the further discussion again","Because by the time the Industrial Designer introduced his product in a more thorough way, there would be a competition. Moreover, Project Manager made this request so that he could submit the documentation to the management. He hopes, in addition, that all the emails or other copies of discussions could be kept so that each member could be informed about the project proceeding." Project Manager: Yes so what I prefer maybe you need to interact more with the Christine because you know what she is going to do it and you know how to sell it because she is doing the design but you are the core because you are in the marketing so because you need to sell and you are the responsible for the all the money the finance tomorrow So what I prefer so you need to interact with the Christine more and within her team who is using the functional design or technical design,"Project manager expressed his hope that Marketing could interact more frequently with the Industrial Designer Christine within her team, so that the two departments of sales and finance could coordinate with each other. Additionally, he would like all the teams worked together in order to take all the factors into account." "Marketing: well we can obviously change it after we go through each different one So basically what we need to do is some of the things that we have talked about before we need to make sure that that remote actually does conform to the things that we said it was going to So what we sort of want to do is that we each need to separately rank each of the following things and then I will tabulate an average just to make sure that it does meet that So we will just go through them one at a time and we will just go around and each of you can tell me on a scale of one to seven with one being really extremely true and seven being not true at all or false if the remote that we have created conforms to the following criteria So we can do this one first First we want to know if it meets the fancy look and feel objective So like in my opinion the for now at least the yellow one is probably somewhere in the middle so I am going to say it is like a three That is just my opinion What does each of you Project Manager: I I kind of think it is it is unique enough that I would give it a one or a two Marketing: well give it a number Project Manager: I will give it a one Industrial Designer: I do not know if it is it is creative I do not know if fancy is the word I would use I do not know if any of them are fancy in I would say two because c unique User Interface: I will go for two Marketing: And two awesome Alright and same sort of scale for functionality is it functional ? I think it is extremely functional I am going to give it a one User Interface: I think it is it is functional it is also pretty basic so I will give it a two Project Manager: functional I think it will get everything done I think it might be a little confusing at first I do not know if that is going to be a later one Marketing: Well there is some other ones I will address that Project Manager: then I am going to give it a two Marketing: Awesome we want to know next if it is technologically innovative Project Manager: Did you give a functional ? Marketing: she said it was one is it technologically innovative ? Mm Not really I mean not so much because we we do not have the LCD screen we do not have fancy chip Other than what it looks like I do not know if it is really Industrial Designer: In the battery that is it Marketing: I kinetic battery is a big one so Industrial Designer: How many people would notice that though ? Project Manager: But they will notice it after like a year Marketing: but we know it is there Project Manager: they will be like hey I have never changed the battery Marketing: And if it is made of like latex that whole idea that is pretty cool I will give it a three Because it we could have picked a lot of features that would have made it really Industrial Designer: I I would say that it is like fancy versus creative it is it is different But does that equal innovative ? I do not know I will give it a three User Interface: I would say it is technologically it is not it is not unique I mean it is it is just it is just pushbuttons so I I would give it a four Project Manager: Think I am going to go with the four as well I really like that kinetic battery though Marketing: Next is it easy to use ? Just so you know easy to learn will be separate so do not overlap them I think it is really easy to use I will give it a two Industrial Designer: I will give it a one Pretty hard to mess up Marketing: Alright we next want to see if it has a spongy quality and if indeed it is made of latex or rubber I it is spongy all the way User Interface: I wonder if it bounces when you drop it Industrial Designer: Ooh that you could not it would be harder to break Project Manager: Because there would be less impact maybe Marketing: Iain what do you give it ? User Interface: I would I would give it a one Marketing: Alright and the next is does it integrate some notion of fruits and vegetables ? Well is it going to be yellow ? Industrial Designer: It it might be because that is our corporate colour is not it ? Project Manager: That is right corporate colour we did not keep that in Industrial Designer: We might want to keep it yellow Project Manager: if we I know it would make it a little less c a little more confusing but if we had all the buttons in black and a design in and the outside in yellow that would be our corporate one and we could also have alternative colours one a more conservative one one that is more fruity Marketing: but if you had like a silvery kind of white or something Project Manager: and can we have like an RR inscribed on the bottom or something ? Industrial Designer: If we had a yellow Sure Marketing: Alright so I think it it is Industrial Designer: it was inspired by the potato so I think it is pretty fruity Project Manager: I think i it is kind of mangoey too Marketing: I am giving it a one the mango put me over Industrial Designer: That is a much more trendy than a potato Marketing: What are what is everyone is numbers ? Alright and does the design match the appropriate behaviour ? Remember earlier we discussed that people do not use a lot of buttons that they use the channel flipping and the volume the most I think we really took that into account a lot so I am going to give it a one Did you say one Rose ? also we talked earlier about RSI and wanting to prevent any sort of like Carpal Tunnely kind of thing Do we think that the latex sort of grip appropriately takes that into account ? I think I will give it a two because I almost feel like no matter what you do something is going to happen Project Manager: It is going to be hard And if it is repetitive movement it is going to be only four buttons that you are constantly pushing but Marketing: worth the risk I think Project Manager: I like how it fits in the hand though so I I would go with a two Industrial Designer: I will I will say two as well Because older people that are not used to like texting with the thumb might find it a bit at first User Interface: I will I will say two Marketing: Alright awesome And the ease of learning it I know you were saying that you are a little bit nervous about that I do not know It sort of reminds me of the iPod I just got mine I still have not read the instruction book and I am doing so and I am not good at learning technology So I will give it a two Industrial Designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing but I think if it is one it is one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out but you will have it afterwards So I would I think I would give it a two I guess User Interface: I think it it is probably a little harder then most remotes to learn because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are and that could take a bit of learning at first but once you have once you would learned how to use it I think it is a lot easier So I would I would give it a four Project Manager: I think I would give it a four too It is a pretty high learning curve it will be easy once you have done it but Marketing: Mmhmm Alright also earlier we had something about losing it and so now we are not addressing that at all so Project Manager: I think we can kind of say we addressed it with colour but Marketing: so in terms of not losing it do you think that on a scale of one to seven how easy or hard is it to lose ? I am going to I am going to give it a four because I think that you can still if it is in between somewhere where you can not see it you are kind of not going to find it but anywhere else it is going to stand out Industrial Designer: I would say I would give it a three I guess it depends on how tidy you are normally Project Manager: Mm I would give it a four User Interface: I will give it a five because i it would be easy to lose something like that Marketing: Alright we also said simplicity how w how well does it address just being simple ? Industrial Designer: Simple to use or simple in design ? Do you know ? Marketing: I think overall because we had said before our two main things were simplicity and fashion so those are the next two things we are going to look at Separate from fancy like that sort of thing it like wants to be simple but it is not like totally totally simple so I am going to give it a two Industrial Designer: I am give it a three I guess User Interface: I will give it a two Project Manager: It is totally fashionable I would give it a one Marketing: It is hot I mean it is a mango come on I mean how fashionable can you make a remote ? I think it is bringing technology and fashion together real really well Industrial Designer: I do not think it is quite as fashionable as my robot remote Project Manager: I do like the little Martian one Industrial Designer: or alien or whatever he was Marketing: the toggle on off switch it is really appealing And does it meet our like demographic need sort of for international appeal that whole thing ? Just that it would se serve our audience I do not see why not Project Manager: Mmhmm I think as long if we offer in a in at least three different colour arrangements that is good So I will give it a a two Marketing: Alright did anyone have any other features that they think were important that we did not talk about ? Project Manager: Well we did not we did not address the fact that it does need to b have a corporate logo so let us let us make sure we keep that in mind that we ha that one of our colours concepts is corporate and has an RR on it Industrial Designer: Shall we Well I think all of them should have an RR Project Manager: All of them should have RR Marketing: And so we are going to do that so it will address it","The group had an evaluation on the prototype after a presentation on it. They gave high scores in turns of product creativity, easy to use, integration of fruits, appropriate behaviour, simplicity and fashion. They gave a medium score in turns or technological innovation, ease of learning and not easy to lose." "Marketing: is it technologically innovative ? Mm Not really I mean not so much because we we do not have the LCD screen we do not have fancy chip Other than what it looks like I do not know if it is really Industrial Designer: In the battery that is it Marketing: I kinetic battery is a big one so Industrial Designer: How many people would notice that though ? Project Manager: But they will notice it after like a year Marketing: but we know it is there Project Manager: they will be like hey I have never changed the battery Marketing: And if it is made of like latex that whole idea that is pretty cool I will give it a three Because it we could have picked a lot of features that would have made it really Industrial Designer: I I would say that it is like fancy versus creative it is it is different But does that equal innovative ? I do not know I will give it a three User Interface: I would say it is technologically it is not it is not unique I mean it is it is just it is just pushbuttons so I I would give it a four Project Manager: Think I am going to go with the four as well I really like that kinetic battery though",Marketing thought the prototype was not much technologically innovative because they didn't have LCD screens and a fancy chip. While Project Manager thought the kinetic battery was a good innovation. The group supplemented that people might notice this feature after a year if they hadn't changed the battery. So the group agreed to give an average of four out of seven. "Marketing: Alright awesome And the ease of learning it I know you were saying that you are a little bit nervous about that I do not know It sort of reminds me of the iPod I just got mine I still have not read the instruction book and I am doing so and I am not good at learning technology So I will give it a two Industrial Designer: The menu system and the the fact that multiple buttons are used for different things might be a bit confusing but I think if it is one it is one of those things that it might take you five minutes to figure out but you will have it afterwards So I would I think I would give it a two I guess User Interface: I think it it is probably a little harder then most remotes to learn because you have to you have to use the menu system and you have to tell it what your favourite channels are and that could take a bit of learning at first but once you have once you would learned how to use it I think it is a lot easier So I would I would give it a four Project Manager: I think I would give it a four too It is a pretty high learning curve it will be easy once you have done it but","Marketing firstly took the iPod as an example when illustrating the ease of learning the new remote. However, User Interface mentioned that it would be harder because users had to use the menu system and need to tell it what their favourite channels were. And it was a high learning curve, so User Interface gave four out of seven." "Project Manager: now we are going to look at finances I have an Excel sheet that we are actually going to calculate the cost so let me exit out of this first I know Let me one more space Going To zoom in real quick Hand dynamo We are using kinetic battery Industrial Designer: we are n using kinetic Project Manager: right ? and we are having one per One User Interface: Guess it is doublecurved It is pretty curvy Industrial Designer: I never did get a picture of those so I do not really know Our case material supplements oops we just skipped by them Marketing: Well do not we need plastic and Industrial Designer: No we we the plastic is the plastic for the inside is assumed The supplement is Oh I guess it was rubber rather than latex Marketing: It was rubber and special colour right ? Do we have more than one special colour ? Project Manager: we are using we are going to need at least two special colours User Interface: Special colours is not it ? Industrial Designer: I do not know what the se the basic colour is though Project Manager: I do not know where it Marketing: Well but we know that we are having at least three colours Project Manager: So let us y say three Industrial Designer: Well are we talking about on each colour combination or are we you know we will like we will have yellow and black Is that two special colours ? Project Manager: I do not know That I thi Industrial Designer: Or or is white and black then two more or Project Manager: I thought that would be under yours Industrial Designer: I guess it is three Project Manager: We will just say three Maybe the RR will be in colour as well so Interface we are doing push buttons And how many buttons do we have ? Industrial Designer: No Oh we will do we wa Are the buttons in special colour special f I did not get information on Project Manager: buttons oh so So the case material will just have one colour right but then the buttons will be in special colours ? Industrial Designer: but if we are making multiple varieties of this is where I am getting confused Project Manager: We are saying per unit so each unit will only have one colour on their Industrial Designer: Alright and each button s Project Manager: but the case is could have up to thr I mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours because that how it is designed there Marketing: I like it like that Project Manager: Special form ? They are all kind of just push button Industrial Designer: I think they are fine Material we want them rubber as well probably Project Manager: Oh do I have to do it per button do I ? Industrial Designer: No I do not think so I think they are if they are all going to be rubber then it that is what it matters Marketing: because it would not make sense otherwise because for the whole mat case material it is only one It is I mean it is two to make it rubber Project Manager: what can we reduce ? Industrial Designer: let us have our buttons all be one colour Marketing: Mm I kind of like the buttons Project Manager: Let us see what that would do It is only going to bring us down to thirteen point three anyway are we sure this is doublecurved ? Industrial Designer: I do not know I did not get any pictures It is single curved Project Manager: Well it is not the it is the kinetic battery that is kind of expensive but we have a simple chip single curve case material is rubber and it is a special colour but that is important Six buttons we have to have six buttons Industrial Designer: That is important How did it get more expensive what did you just change ? It was it was thirteen and now it is fifteen Project Manager: No maybe not I do not know what just happened Now it is twelve User Interface: What was our target price again ? Industrial Designer: Twelve point five Hey hey User Interface: Twelve point five So we are just just about there Project Manager: So we are I think Industrial Designer: We are all set then Project Manager: save I saved that to our our big shared folder so you know back to agenda are the are the costs under twelve fifty Euro ? Yes","The group set the target price at 12.5 Euros and limited the cost under 12.5 Euros. So they agreed to use one kinetic battery, single electronics, single-curved rubber case with colour per unit and up to three colours. Also, they decided to have six buttons in one colour." "Project Manager: but then the buttons will be in special colours ? Industrial Designer: but if we are making multiple varieties of this is where I am getting confused Project Manager: We are saying per unit so each unit will only have one colour on their Industrial Designer: Alright and each button s Project Manager: but the case is could have up to thr I mean the buttons could ea could be up to three colours because that how it is designed there Marketing: I like it like that","Industrial Designer thought they were making multiple varieties of button colours which made people confused. So Project Manager suggested that each unit would only have one colour on each button. To avoid confusion, the group agreed to have up to three colours for the buttons." "Project Manager: what can we reduce ? Industrial Designer: let us have our buttons all be one colour Marketing: Mm I kind of like the buttons Project Manager: Let us see what that would do It is only going to bring us down to thirteen point three anyway are we sure this is doublecurved ? Industrial Designer: I do not know I did not get any pictures It is single curved Project Manager: Well it is not the it is the kinetic battery that is kind of expensive but we have a simple chip single curve case material is rubber and it is a special colour but that is important Six buttons we have to have six buttons Industrial Designer: That is important How did it get more expensive what did you just change ? It was it was thirteen and now it is fifteen Project Manager: No maybe not I do not know what just happened Now it is twelve User Interface: What was our target price again ? Industrial Designer: Twelve point five Hey hey User Interface: Twelve point five So we are just just about there Project Manager: So we are I think Industrial Designer: We are all set then",Industrial Designer suggested having buttons all in one colour and reduced to four. While Project Manager thought that six buttons were important and suggested having a single-curved and a simple chip to even out the product cost. The group agreed on it and they had a product price reduced to 12 Euros. "Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control So So let us see the what did you prepare User Interface: so can you go out to the shared folder ? Mm the shared folder Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation ? User Interface: Yes We have a presentation So I got the participant three W Three It is the final design S so so I discussed with Guillaume Right And so we have and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an LCD or not because it is too expensive So we come up with two versions One with and one without LCDs but both comes with a charger and then detachable and or control module And detachable big buttons for all people So Industrial Designer: S so I will show you the the two prototypes Here we have the first one with the beautiful LCD display You you can s here And you can just browse into the the navigation menu by joystick joysticklike button You can choose the direction and if you just push on it it is considered like a enter function You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the for the speech recognition system here And here the the switch that control if you want Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side ? Industrial Designer: Well I I I think it is the Project Manager: It is not a good place maybe User Interface: No i i it is the all around camer microphone is not it The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? Industrial Designer: Well so it is a microphone array Project Manager: Oh it is very costly microphone array Industrial Designer: it is just a single microphone and you I I think we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your LCD you will be close to well it is better to to to place it here th than here for instance And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker recognition system to to be on or off And so this remote control comes up with its charger Project Manager: How much does it cost this one ? Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is made for about well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollars Project Manager: Ah it is above it is above the budget Industrial Designer: but well it is not it is not but it is just a prototype and if we if we optimises the the voila Marketing: The cost would be le reduced Industrial Designer: the and the the production costs we we can achieve about ten dollars Project Manager: How many b battery is there ? Industrial Designer: How many excuse me ? Well f battery we use about User Interface: Is it n the two AAs batteries in it Industrial Designer: because we have the charger User Interface: We have the charger so it is no problem Project Manager: So one one battery ? Marketing: Is that two or one ? User Interface: Actually it is a flexible thing Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that ? What type of battery ? Industrial Designer: Oh it is just a r simple battery a rechargeable if you like it is exist Marketing: Something like a two A A three size batteries ? Industrial Designer: So and if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the charger and leave it alone it is alright Then the next time you pick it oh User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is only a single button there b this button Industrial Designer: just explain the button Norman User Interface: alright This button is like the mouse is like a joystick you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a click you have a double click all in a single button You can move up down left right or you can do a swing So a swing to the left a swing to the right defines other functions So even though it is a single button but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement Marketing: And the LCD is this one on the remote ? User Interface: This is the version y that comes with LCD Here I present another version without the LCD Project Manager: I think it is not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is getting destroyed Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the different button configuration The second version is also simpler we d we had just I have to put the microphone also So basically th it is the same Marketing: Uhhuh and also the switch Industrial Designer: Basically it is the same things as I presented before But here we have we have four buttons for navigation Press one button acting as a a enter button So according to what you said it is more robust to the user And it is also cheaper to produce We can produce such remote control for about four dollars Project Manager: No four dollars it is good Marketing: And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger because that is a major that is a User Interface: th actually th we will come to that point in our Industrial Designer: it is it is it is embed in the speech recognition system Marketing: and if you disable speech recognition system then ? User Interface: W w I will I will come to that point later on Industrial Designer: so Norman will explain to you Project Manager: And we will we will serve the charger with this ? User Interface: Th they either these with the the the charger any in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger Project Manager: so the price of the charger included in the User Interface: it is a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price It is that same charger that you can use for the handphone but again depends on the types I think we have to investigate more on that but Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says people is willing to people are willing to pay more for good design Project Manager: We have we have just Marketing: people are willing to pay more but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment Project Manager: The price of selling is twenty five Euros And the price of production Industrial Designer: Alright please go on Norman with the special features User Interface: we will we will come up to that the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system Project Manager: That is for this basis function and if you want more you pay more User Interface: for example the LCD you can take it you can put it put it back in or you can use the other one or the speech recogniser with the microphone You want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do not wan you pay less for the system you see It is pretty flexible in the price Industrial Designer: You also have the the the two other modules for the parental control that that you ca you can add up to the to your remote control Marketing: And this is other one ? Industrial Designer: i i if you if you want to to have more more power on what you do and which channel you want to choose and so on H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch TV up they come up with their modules they just plug in it and they can have all the control they want here We also have this module for old people with big buttons clearly labelled and it acts like the previous one you just plug in and it works User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful Simplicity meaning that we have few buttons powerful is that all the controls with the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mm the same powerful functionalities But in addition with simplicity So that is the best idea the cond that that is our an innovation i in this design here now we come to other important features that I did not tell you The first one is the speech recogniser again it is detachable or addon And then we also have security feature for example this here oop it is very robust it does not break and the material what is the material again ? Industrial Designer: and so it is very User Interface: Again and the battery life is is an is an endurable one again because this is AA batteries you can choose the types of battery you want Lithiumion may be a good one but you can replace it with cheaper one again you pay for what you get and then y the other p points are robust and misplacement reminder So when you finish watching your TV and you the you t you turn off the TV and then there is this message coming out that please put that back to the charger so so that is the or is it that is the reminder part and And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary so we did not define the vocabulary so it is up to the user to define And then because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a of TV programmes by genre and this can be used by the adult or by the children So instead of choosing the channel you are choosing the TV contents of the night So it is pretty powerful and that is that is why the num buttons are reduced because of this feature And and for the materials that is cheap to produce I think it is quite clear from And also like the and the fancy designs Maybe we can improve more on the design but Project Manager: What is the price to p to produce ? Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce For the simplest one say we start from four dollars to produce such a device Project Manager: With with with the charge ? Industrial Designer: it is about it The without without the charger it is about well two dollars to produce the microphone and speech recognition systems Two dollars for the for the addon modules and finally three dollars for the charger So if you sum up everything wi with the LCD which costs two dollar you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two Project Manager: We do not have charger Marketing: I think we can use Excel Project Manager: We do not have all the options Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about fifteen dollars Project Manager: Charger we do not have charger here either Industrial Designer: But it is just if you want all functionalities Project Manager: it is below the the the budget It is below the bu the budget Marketing: it is a nice input but we have an other inputs from the l public demands I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements and we can finalise the product based on this discu","Industrial Designer and User Interface gave a presentation about two versions of the prototype, one with and one without LCD. As for the one with LCD, users could choose the direction and if they pushed on it, it's considered like an enter function. There was also a button which was like a mouse. This prototype had microphone arrays for the speech recognition system and switch for controlling. The remote control needed rechargeable batteries, but the type and the number of batteries were not sure. This prototype cost fifteen dollars and it was high above the budget. The second prototype was basically the same as the first one. However, it used buttons to navigate and enter. This one cost four dollars. The remote control had different modules for different groups of people. The set might use a material like titanium or lithium. User Interface said that features which cost much could be optional so the price could be flexible. Project Manager said that the cost of the whole second plan was below the budget." "Industrial Designer: And here the the switch that control if you want Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side ? Industrial Designer: Well I I I think it is the Project Manager: It is not a good place maybe User Interface: No i i it is the all around camer microphone is not it The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ? Industrial Designer: Well so it is a microphone array Project Manager: Oh it is very costly microphone array Industrial Designer: it is just a single microphone and you I I think we we put it here because I think when you when you are browsing your LCD you will be close to well it is better to to to place it here th than here for instance And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker recognition system to to be on or off And so this remote control comes up with its charger","The switch for controlling was around the microphone, so the microphone could easily put up the speeches from anywhere. The microphone was in the side, so when users were browsing the LCD they would not be close to the microphone. Industrial Designer said that the place could be adjusted." "User Interface: we will we will come up to that the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you want more function you pay more If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system Project Manager: That is for this basis function and if you want more you pay more User Interface: for example the LCD you can take it you can put it put it back in or you can use the other one or the speech recogniser with the microphone You want a microphone to put in the speech recogniser you do not wan you pay less for the system you see It is pretty flexible in the price","The product would have basic functions and if users wanted more they need to pay more. For example, if users wanted LCD and speech recognisers with the microphone, they would pay more, else they could just buy the simpler one." "Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then We can wind up Or we could come to some f final conclusions So the marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings and in the market the people are not really interested with LCD without LCD with speech recognition interface or without speech recognition interface but most of the people what they are interested is first thing is they want to have an fancy look and feel it should be very fancy with colourful and very handy to hold And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative Of course in that we could put LCD or recognition to be more technologically innovative And the third one is easy to use Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we have not yet a remote who are allowing to to choose interactively with the TV screen with just four buttons Marketing: and if we go to the next slide here you can find these are the latest fashion updates and so this in Paris and Milan they have detected this trends that the this year it is going to be an year of fruit and vegetable so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of the fruit or a vegetable or whatever they like So I think it should be much more customised to make a different shapes And the second thing is and if the material they really do not want it to be very hard as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium it should be somewhat spongy User Interface: But the the problem is that is it robust to mishandling ? We have you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy Marketing: so so finally we have these three criterias One is fancy look second is innovative and third is easy to use So these are the f three criteria on which we are going to build our remote So and we have an evaluation criteria for each one of these say that we have a seven point scale from one to seven and for each of the product you could just give me the scale according to this So now you have with LCD and without LCD so on this scale if it is true if it is if it has a fancy look you could just tell me one or if it is false it does not it looks it does not look much fancy then you could just tell me seven So We can make our study on this and User Interface: so is the e evaluation depending on us or other users ? Marketing: No no we have you have designed two products now one is with LCD and without LCD User Interface: But who will give the scoring we ourself or or a third party ? Marketing: According to you no according to you designers how will feel does it with LCD and without LCD ? let us make this L and without LCD On on this scale the LCD remote control How do you look how does it look ? D is it very fancy or does not look much fancy ? Industrial Designer: Well it does not look much fancy I will I will say three or four Marketing: And you both agree for that ? User Interface: I think we can improve on the design Som someone commented this is like a the stone age design we have been focused all all this time on the on the technical aspect functional aspect but also the simplicity As for the design maybe we c should hire a designer to help Marketing: So I take three on with LCD ? So without LCD how would you rate it ? Industrial Designer: four I think it is it is more easy to make f fancy things when it is not complicated so removing the LCD gives us a li more liberty to to have a fancy look Marketing: And in the sense of innovativeness with LCD Industrial Designer: Well it is it is the same for both so I will give a five six Well five also Norman please User Interface: from the innovation aspect I feel that what is most innovative of our prototype compared to the existing prototypes that we saw l in the last meeting is that the retrieval of TV programmes by content because that is really innovative and for now and another innovation we have is simplicity and simplicity few buttons we have A lot of functionalities So that is that is for both th Our gi I think that the our our product is has the best in all well this is a biased judgement Marketing: No no according to design aspect we want to know how would you feel the innovativeness ? User Interface: the innovation is v is very high I think Industrial Designer: Mm for both it is the the same innovations User Interface: For both It is the same innovation So maybe I can put six to seven Industrial Designer: six let us go for six Marketing: No actually to make it with LCD you make more efforts So I there is high innovativeness included if you make it with LCD y then when it is without LCD there is not much innovativeness User Interface: there w there was a there was a issue here is that what are what is the display on the LCD ? Marketing: So we can not go User Interface: We have not really determined what are actually actually Marketing: I mean that what you are sayin that is what the design User Interface: it is good to have a LCD but what are we going to display on a LCD ? Marketing: No it is like this I mean on the LCD according to what I understand from your model is you have a joystick here and you have LCD you just press your joystick you get here a programme Project Manager: So let us remove it Industrial Designer: but you have the same programme on the TV screen Marketing: No on the TV you do not it does not display on the TV now Industrial Designer: If you have the LCD but if n Marketing: LCD ? Then there is no meaning in having it on the TV Or then again you have a channels volume and all the stuff and what a User Interface: But you can not display all on a LCD Marketing: I mean that depends upon your design so User Interface: Anyway for for the users who who who opt for LCD we will give them the give them the LCD we give what the customer wants right Marketing: So without LCD you want to put it fi the same level of innovativeness ? And which do you recommend e easy to use with LCD or without LCD ? Industrial Designer: Well I think both are really easy to use because there are few button buttons and well t p the menu are clear wellorganised so Well with little knowing of the technology you can you can easily use the product so I will give a six for the easy to use Project Manager: No it is just if I I see the the f the rate I think it is better to do it without LCD Because that is with LCD just will increase the price and I thi i they have the same rate so without LCD it will be Marketing: Or we can just go back to the previous slide where we ha we have a few updates So I mean in the product design you could just amend it to make some few changes according to fruit and vegetable or a spongy touch without LCD and without speech recognition Even then our product is going to be very good Industrial Designer: it is cheaper to produce And if the the well if we have less technology we have more liberty to for the shape and things like that so User Interface: I have another thing to say about the easy to use aspect I think the easy to use aspect is different for different people For the young generation easy to use may be very complicated because they w they wants lot of controls with lots of buttons For kids they want simply the s similarit for the old people they want simplicity so that is why we have the parental module we can ha have build a more complex design if if they want it but but what I am trying to say here is that the we have different sets of buttons for different kinds of people So in terms of easy to use I think it is very user customisable User customisation is very important Marketing: So without LCD I just take it five ? Or you want it to be six ? User Interface: I think it is the same Industrial Designer: Yes as you say with better Marketing: S s oh I think it is better to have this without LCD Industrial Designer: And to improve the the look Marketing: As our Programme Manager s Pro Project Manager says that without LCD it is going to reduce the cost also and it is going to be much simpler to use Industrial Designer: Yes and to give us more liberty to have a fancy look so so let us go back to our laboratory and User Interface: To improve on the design Project Manager: What a what what about the sys speech recognition ? what about the integration of speech recognition ? User Interface: Huh ? The speech recogniser is a addon module Right ? Marketing: That is going to be an optional If somebody wants to buy it they can have it otherwise no Project Manager: Ah so it is optional with the Industrial Designer: It is optional since well according to this study people more likes more to have a spongy remote control than Project Manager: I think it will be I think i I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control because maybe parents will lose these Marketing: but I mean if you have an addons the kids may just hide the parental module and so that their parents can not use it Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or so mayb better if you have all this in the same Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work User Interface: The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component and does not want the parental control because it is a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them So we might lose the customer because of this I do not know Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional will be optional User Interface: what do you think ? Yes exa what do you think I do not know You are Marketing Manag Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that how many married couple or how many couples have a TV or to the number or singles who have a television So based on that I think User Interface: But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? Project Manager: I think it inc increase Industrial Designer: Well you can if you had something li Project Manager: I think it i increases Industrial Designer: because if you if you add something well maybe because it is three different pieces to to to build but Marketing: But you can make it on a single PC with three different options Industrial Designer: it is I think it is cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities on the same module but User Interface: Well well the other aspect is that if in the when they have the ar existing product you you going to maintain the the you are going to keep the same customer because the same customer will come back to buy other addons Marketing: I mean you could just provide with an optional User Interface: i i so if do not do not buy now they can buy i in the future So in in that way you are actually keeping the cus the same customer attracting them to come back in again and again Marketing: So it is something like a Microsoft product update Project Manager: And and we we we we we we do not want that User Interface: We are not trying to follow the Microsoft and we do not want to the m Marketing: Updates and we sell it We make updates and sell it User Interface: well if the buyers can be up the th would be can be upgraded it would be a good thing right ? it depends on the v production Marketing: And what is the idea about the shape of the remote controls ? can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? Do you require different types of PCBs and Industrial Designer: I think we are but we are also the well the components will have to change because we have to deal with the shape and but I do not think it will increase the cost too much so Marketing: Or it could be like this the PCB would be the same for all but only the exterior shape is different o for all Industrial Designer: well but it is a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to ah well User Interface: What we can change is to propose the customers with skins For example the i the mobile phones nowaday they sell different kinds of skin and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better Industrial Designer: we can have the same global shape and then add on skins and with with this tex spongy texture things like that User Interface: you can pl in what material would that be in ? Marketing: I think you need to look into the material User Interface: or furry like a pet dog kind of thing","Marketing made evaluation criteria. The first thing was fancy look and feel, the second was innovativeness, the third was easy to use. Then Marketing asked Industrial Designer and User Interface to give scores towards two versions of the prototype according to the scale. Both Industrial Designer and User Interface gave three or four points to look and feel, six points to innovativeness and also six points to easy to use. The team decided to make the remote control without LCD and to improve the design to make it fancy. They would have all the functions in the same set, but some functions, like speech recognition, would be optional. The team would look into the shape and material of the set." "Project Manager: I think it will be better if we have all these modules in the same remote control because maybe parents will lose these Marketing: but I mean if you have an addons the kids may just hide the parental module and so that their parents can not use it Project Manager: Or maybe parents they can for forget where they put it or so mayb better if you have all this in the same Marketing: and and individual buttons to make them work User Interface: The problem is if i we are bla if a customer wants a certain component and does not want the parental control because it is a couple who do not have children when you sell the product in the market you could meet any kind of people and not all people will need all the functionalities we propose to them So we might lose the customer because of this I do not know Project Manager: So you mean that even if these modules will be will be functional will be optional User Interface: what do you think ? Yes exa what do you think I do not know You are Marketing Manag Marketing: I mean how to how to how to make a marketing survey that how many married couple or how many couples have a TV or to the number or singles who have a television So based on that I think User Interface: But the the question is n does those modularity increase the production cost or decrease the production cost ? Project Manager: I think it inc increase Industrial Designer: Well you can if you had something li Project Manager: I think it i increases Industrial Designer: because if you if you add something well maybe because it is three different pieces to to to build but Marketing: But you can make it on a single PC with three different options Industrial Designer: it is I think it is cheaper if you if you already built the all the functionalities on the same module but","If one remote control had a children module and another one had not, maybe parents would easily lose the one with children module. Those modularities increased the production cost, so having all functions in the same set could be cheaper." "Marketing: And what is the idea about the shape of the remote controls ? can they be made into a fruit and vegetable types ? Do you require different types of PCBs and Industrial Designer: I think we are but we are also the well the components will have to change because we have to deal with the shape and but I do not think it will increase the cost too much so Marketing: Or it could be like this the PCB would be the same for all but only the exterior shape is different o for all Industrial Designer: well but it is a bit complicated to if if if you need machines to different machines to ah well User Interface: What we can change is to propose the customers with skins For example the i the mobile phones nowaday they sell different kinds of skin and then people just feel that oh I have a new skin and looks better Industrial Designer: we can have the same global shape and then add on skins and with with this tex spongy texture things like that User Interface: you can pl in what material would that be in ? Marketing: I think you need to look into the material User Interface: or furry like a pet dog kind of thing","The remote control might be made into fruit or vegetable types. So the team might have to change some components, but it would not cost much. The PCB would be the same for all, but only the exterior shape was different for all. They could propose the customers with skins. The team would look into the material." "Industrial Designer: A lot of buttons And you always lose them A lot of buttons which you do not use or who you do not use User Interface: search for the buttons which one is which Project Manager: Boring it is not fun to use a remote Well maybe we should try to make it fun Industrial Designer: They use batteries and batteries and poor signal User Interface: Perhaps that you have a lot of road remotes r road con remote controls Marketing: The the angle you have to use You had different remote controls for different devices User Interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something Industrial Designer: for the use of different devices User Interface: Your stereo and your TV and Perhaps that is an idea","User Interface thought that remote control was easy to lose and complex to use and then suggested new remote control can be integrated. Industrial Designer thought the remote control had too many buttons and a bad signal. Marketing thought different devices had different remote controls. Project Manager thought remote control was all black and boring, then he suggested making remote control fun." "User Interface: perhaps you can integrate them or something Industrial Designer: for the use of different devices User Interface: Your stereo and your TV and Perhaps that is an idea Marketing: but then again you you still have a lot of buttons User Interface: that is right And which you do not use Industrial Designer: but you could I thin there is a possibility to g to to put those buttons behind some kind of protection so that if y y you only get to see them when you need them That is possible so that you only get the Marketing: but it will get very big the the remote control User Interface: You should just give it to Industrial Designer: No n n no just for example you got th the same size remote control you use everyday but the usual buttons such as zapping as you call it in Dutch and the volume control are only the only possible buttons to use directly Or the numbers of course But not the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television You only use those the first time or Project Manager: Mmhmm So maybe a a minimalist design the least possible amount of buttons User Interface: Yes But you should make sure that you have every button they need on it Because things for teletext I do not know w what is the name ? Project Manager: So you do not want to bother people with loads of buttons but on the other hand they need many buttons so they do not have to get out of their seat",Industrial Designer expressed a desire to make the remote friendly to users. He hoped that new remote control should work on different devices. User Interface suggested taking different kinds of Tv like teletext into consideration. Project Manager agreed and supposed remote control with the least amount of buttons. "Industrial Designer: for the use of different devices User Interface: Your stereo and your TV and Perhaps that is an idea Marketing: but then again you you still have a lot of buttons User Interface: that is right And which you do not use Industrial Designer: but you could I thin there is a possibility to g to to put those buttons behind some kind of protection so that if y y you only get to see them when you need them That is possible so that you only get the Marketing: but it will get very big the the remote control User Interface: You should just give it to Industrial Designer: No n n no just for example you got th the same size remote control you use everyday but the usual buttons such as zapping as you call it in Dutch and the volume control are only the only possible buttons to use directly Or the numbers of course But not the buttons used to search on the the channels on your television You only use those the first time or Project Manager: Mmhmm So maybe a a minimalist design the least possible amount of buttons","Industrial Designer desired to make the remote with most used buttons so that the remote was friendly to users. Unnecessary buttons should be behind some kind of protection so that they only can be seen when needed. Instead of a big size, the remote control should be the normal size with the least amount of buttons." "Marketing: Because I think a market will be all kind of people Elderly p el elderly young people so User Interface: But if if it is if it is international you should look in think in Britain they have different things they can do with the TV or so that you can choose what you want to see I do not know if you should take that in consideration or that you just should aim for the normal TVs Marketing: I think that is the better one because I think if you you are going to target a lot of people and the whole world and only Britain then I think the cost will rise higher than the twelve fifty I think User Interface: Yes I do not know if the they have that anywhere else though Marketing: I think the aim is better to use the whole world and Britain","Marketing thought the market included all kinds of people no matter if they were old and young. So it would be better if their aim was the whole world and Britain. Users Interface suggested that market aim should take the remote control style into consideration about. For instance in Britain, people had many things to do with TV. But normal TVs were not like this." "Industrial Designer: it only has to have the most used buttons You do not have to integrate the buttons to search the channels on your television User Interface: but then you have to to find your other remote control if you want to search Marketing: th it it is I think that is not Industrial Designer: but I but it is impossible to to accommodate accommodate all the buttons on the s on the difference different televisions sets on one remote control It is impossible Because for example Sony television has the opportunity to s to make to make it possible for to see on one side of the screen teletext and on the other side just n regular television Marketing: I think n m n most televisions nowadays do this Industrial Designer: but they do not use the same signal on remote control Because you can not use a Panasonic remote control on a on a Philips television Marketing: but then you have to choose the always with r universal remotes you have to choose the code User Interface: you can choose the code","Industrial Designer thought it was impossible to accommodate different TVs on one remote control. Because you can't use a Panasonic remote control on a Philips television. However, Marketing believed that this problem could be solved by a universal remote with code." "Marketing: You can use which which type of television you have That is no problem But I think like the two pages on the same screen like teletext and normal television that is that is nowadays standard I think Industrial Designer: but I think that most people th will buy the remote control because because the first they lost the one they lost first one or the first one is broken so perhaps they have a got a an older television so that option is not optional for those people User Interface: But the people have a new television and c if you look into the future then they want will want the button if their thing is broke Industrial Designer: So we should take that in consideration","Industrial Designer thought customers would buy a new remote control when they lost or broke the first one. They also bought a new one if they got an older TV. On the other hand, User Interface thought in the future, customers would need remote control with buttons." "Industrial Designer: Kay we have made a prototype we have got our aspects from the last meeting especially we looked at the form material and the colour we have drawn here the p prototype The logo is is is pretty obvious to see on the on the remote control but it is necessary when you want to build your company f to a level higher our interface elements there are shown in the in the drawing Maybe you can point them The functions User Interface: well the all the functions are discussed I think the most of the functions are obvious it is a little bit power button then the the the nine channels the volume at the side and the other side is the programmes And then we had just two buttons we place them in the middle the menu and for the teletext Project Manager: Oh no the the the mute button misses now User Interface: I thought that was th Project Manager: did we want to have a m mute button ? Industrial Designer: It is here then in the middle Marketing: Alright and you got to point out which is the volume button and which is the programme button User Interface: well most of them are righthanded Marketing: but you you got to make it clear on the on User Interface: well I do not have time in anymore on the Industrial Designer: Yes y there there will be a p a little a little P on that and a little Marketing: and a and a triangle on that User Interface: Oh just progr programme above I think Marketing: Yes Next to that I kind of miss a zero actually Project Manager: Wait there is was one thing I wanted to ask there are different ways for remote controls to do like d I call it teens and twenties y th th th the two numbers Marketing: All n no that is kind of dependent on the television Industrial Designer: It is a television Yes Project Manager: but do we have do we need extra buttons for example some some have to Industrial Designer: Yes yes you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be on it th with the one and a double Marketing: I think you should add A cross or whatever line Project Manager: but you do not you do not actually need them becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first then you have a couple of seconds Marketing: No that is dependent on the television Project Manager: No I do not think so Industrial Designer: Yes you have televisions then you have to you know you have to press User Interface: Is it depending on television ? Project Manager: Nah I do not think so really because you have a I know some remote controls that do not have these buttons but you still can know obviously you can still select the twenty a number in the twenty or in the ten Industrial Designer: Yes but but a lot Marketing: Yes but no remote control nowadays are they come with the television Or actually the other way around Project Manager: No I think I really think it is n because you can when when you put a button on it with like one and then a dash it is the same thing as when you just push the one because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that separate button you also had to apply Industrial Designer: some televisions do not accept that that Project Manager: because that is i it is for television It is exact the same thing Marketing: No no no So some television respond differently Look if i i Project Manager: No listen listen When you push the button the remote control gives a signal I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it Marketing: Yes Yes that is true Project Manager: The one with dash that signal gi and when y whe when you do not push another button on the remote control within five seconds then the remote control gives a signal for channel one I think it works that way really Marketing: No it it it works if you have not got a special button for it if you push a one then on your television there will appear a one and a a line which is an empty space Project Manager: but it is exact the same that w would appear when you put a separate button push a separate button Industrial Designer: Yes but some some old televisions you have to click on a special button then you go to a a next level you can push two buttons Project Manager: but you do not underst you do not understand my point I think it is exact the same thing when y Industrial Designer: You want Yes but some television do not support it Project Manager: No but then they would a would also support that button because it is the same thing Listen with that that is that special but button you are talking about eh ? That is just a signal to recei ju they send a t signal to the v tv TV that they have to put a one in on your screen and a dash which you can pu so you can still put another number on it When you do not have that separate button and you push y one it is exactly the same thing Do y you the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had Marketing: No s some some televisions need the input first and and you c Project Manager: But you give the input Industrial Designer: so they need no they need Project Manager: You push the one That is the same thing as the button with the one and it Marketing: No that is not true It is simply not true It is simply not true User Interface: You you can wai when you push the one you can show on the telly a one and just a dash and then wait two seconds or something Project Manager: And it is the same thing what happens and a g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one Marketing: No remote control does not give signal after five seconds Remote control is a stupid thing If you push a button it sends it immediately to to the television Project Manager: that is true but I m but it is I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied only ha has the c these buttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash but when you use a bu a n remote control that does not sport these buttons it still works But we we will impl Marketing: No definitely not Definitely not User Interface: We will discuss them in the usability lab Project Manager: No we will apply them then for now User Interface: I do not know I do not know if if it is it is necessary Project Manager: app just apply them next to the zero the one and the two I think so for now if we do not know for sure whether Industrial Designer: And the button for the SCART audio video external input Marketing: you can access that via zero and then minus I guess Project Manager: What I said about the remote control sending another signal that that might not be true but I still think i it it all TVs in some ways support it I do not know I think it is more c is m maybe we do not we both do not really understand how it i how it really works but I think there is more to in than wha than what you just said Industrial Designer: remote control sends one signal at one button press Project Manager: I do think that m TVs support mur multiple kind of remote controls M Industrial Designer: some N some televisions when when you want to go further than ten Project Manager: Th will not work wi with Industrial Designer: No you have to you have to give the television two or more signals Project Manager: to have that special button Industrial Designer: When you press one button you give one signal And the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher But When you make the technology that that it will give more signals it could work but Just a basic idea of of of the most most y most common and simple operations on the remote Marketing: I kind of miss the docking station Industrial Designer: Yes It is here on the User Interface: there is nothing I think it is pretty basic the the there is no fu there is one there is one button Marketing: No nothing really trendy about it User Interface: that is wha there is there is there is one function and that is n the one button when you want to find it Industrial Designer: But maybe we can maybe we can make the docking station a bit standard for for the other products we sell because Real Real Reaction sells more products than only remote controls So maybe we can use the docking station for example MP three players or or Marketing: I think that is very difficult because of different shapes of devices Industrial Designer: Yes but when you put that same volt voltages on it you can put when the when the when o the the the lowest part of it when it is o the same as the other products you can put it all on the same Marketing: of course Mmhmm Well it it got it it has got to fit into the shape of course Industrial Designer: Yes but we can make Marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same That is that is true But i if you all make the m having a bottom like this then they all fit Industrial Designer: No we can make make the most lowest part all the same When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out we can place all on top of it Just have to be big enough for the biggest Marketing: Yes but I I g Should not it fall then ? It is not going to fall down ? That is a bit Industrial Designer: No when you make it large enough no it it will not But then it is a little bit Marketing: No but if if like this I will I will point it out if you got a a a base a base like this Industrial Designer: But it is just an idea Marketing: I will not draw it really If you got a base which is as big as this Industrial Designer: But it is flat it is flat as as this so we can p make all the products as flat as this User Interface: You can But i i i it is backwards Marketing: sure but if you got if you got a tiny player it can Industrial Designer: Yes but when you make a bit of big User Interface: But it is it is backwards It is leaning It is leaning backwards I think in the in the docking station Marketing: wha what you could do if you from the bottom you could make like a hole in it you know of in in the Industrial Designer: Yes little holer littler little products go deeper in it Marketing: That i that is possible yep Project Manager: Well let us ha let us talk about the docking station later because maybe we have we have to consider the docking station anyway because we have some cost issues still to come But we have to look n I do not know Industrial Designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this remote control because you always will pick up the remote control in the in the smallest area Marketing: I do not like the colours Mmhmm Industrial Designer: Then your left thumb of your right thumb is near the programme button which is the most common used function and all the other buttons are available for your thumb So it is it is it is really good design Project Manager: Yes That is it ? Industrial Designer: Yes on the side there will be a strip of rubber and in the middle there is a hard a hard material a bit hard plastic with a light behind it Marketing: The light And other lights ? Project Manager: I think added lights are going to be a problem too Industrial Designer: Yes we can make also n neon lights on it or or the buttons that can make light on it Marketing: No o on the on the front Maybe the the logo Industrial Designer: But it will also use batteries and do we want to Project Manager: For now this is is good enough Industrial Designer: The all the aspects of the interface buttons were Project Manager: but in the oh the colour because we are going to use one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber is not it ? Then we are going to do the buttons in the i are we are going to have rubber buttons","The prototype was a pretty simple design with an obvious company logo on it and two buttons in the middle. There were also power buttons and nine others for switching channels with the incorporation of the menu and teletext. In the middle there was a part of hard material, a bit of hard plastic with a light behind it. In terms of materials and color, the team designed one colour for the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber buttons. Also, the team agreed that the company logo, together with the standard color could be the company's identity. Last but not least, the current device did not include the docking station but the Marketing expressed his interest towards it and the team decided to reconsider it in the following parts of the meeting." Marketing: Alright I will be needing that image so leave it please Go away Right we are going to evaluate that design according to a few points we g the four of us are going to do that together I want to have a colour over here come on Right the remote is not ugly a bit weird sentence but the positive things has to be on the left so I said not ugly instead of ugly what would you say we we got to give points to to all of these to evaluate that design and please forget the drawing skills of these guys,"Marketing recalled the market trend and collected images based on the device the team had designed. For each of Marketing's questions, the team would give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature." "Project Manager: Yes That is it ? Industrial Designer: Yes on the side there will be a strip of rubber and in the middle there is a hard a hard material a bit hard plastic with a light behind it Marketing: The light And other lights ? Project Manager: I think added lights are going to be a problem too Industrial Designer: Yes we can make also n neon lights on it or or the buttons that can make light on it Marketing: No o on the on the front Maybe the the logo Industrial Designer: But it will also use batteries and do we want to Project Manager: For now this is is good enough Industrial Designer: The all the aspects of the interface buttons were Project Manager: but in the oh the colour because we are going to use one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber is not it ? Then we are going to do the buttons in the i are we are going to have rubber buttons And they are be a they will be in the same colour as the rubber on the side Marketing: in the same colour as the side I think I think that will be good Project Manager: And I think we should use a a darker colour for the plastic and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff Industrial Designer: Yes maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use multiple lights Project Manager: we will talk about the lights later Because I also don it is depends on the costs and such But and we have to agree upon the exact colours but may I do not know if that is important but we will talk about that later for now this is this is the next p y you going to give a presentation too ? I have to see the agenda Marketing: Well I I am going to do something right there We got to do that on the right the most rightmost screen because the leftmost Alright I will be needing that image so leave it please Go away Right we are going to evaluate that design according to a few points we g the four of us are going to do that together I want to have a colour over here come on Right the remote is not ugly a bit weird sentence but the positive things has to be on the left so I said not ugly instead of ugly what would you say we we got to give points to to all of these to evaluate that design and please forget the drawing skills of these guys The remote control is not ugly How do you feel ? Project Manager: I think four maybe would be appropriate because it is maybe it really depends on taste I mean it is kind of our design It is so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly you know o other people find it really cool I do not know or I do not know how you Casting Industrial Designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more less uglier side because you can make it in your own Marketing: How do you guys feel ? The different designs Industrial Designer: yes you can make it in your own more to your own personality or or house style Project Manager: but we d we did not we are we are not planning to use fronts I believe Marketing: No not not fronts but different designs Project Manager: With a colour a co a colours Oh User Interface: No not fronts Different designs Different colours maybe Marketing: And that is still is is is a little personal touch I guess Project Manager: but Oh maybe we should do three or something that w you know our Marketing: What ? wha wha what would you guys think ? Personally User Interface: We can make it a one Marketing: Personally Yes but what is it ? Industrial Designer: I think two or three User Interface: I I go for the positive So I go for two Marketing: I was I was thinking about three so I guess Project Manager: I was thinking about four so I think three is Marketing: three is a bit oh what am I doing ? I will mark it The remote controls that n makes zapping easy Project Manager: well let that let us make that a one User Interface: I will I will agree Project Manager: That is one thing for sure User Interface: I am the I am the usability so Marketing: I totally agree The remote control the remote controls relevant buttons are prominently visible Project Manager: two or a one I guess It is something we really put work into Industrial Designer: It is all about the buttons Marketing: I would say a one because every button is relevant And our oh it is a b ? Alright That is a one ? You agree ? The remote control has not got too much redundant or unneeded buttons I think we totally succeeded there Project Manager: Well maybe a two because of the menu button or something Marketing: that is true That is true Industrial Designer: Also the the the buttons of the one the two the the digits Project Manager: we do not know if the they are necessary Marketing: the the m well you d you have got a point Project Manager: Came a long way but not we did not not Industrial Designer: But you can not make a remote control without them Marketing: Nay that that that is true that is true They are definitely needed Project Manager: No w w it can also always be more simplistic but two is Marketing: So we put it on a two ? The remote control has got a really trendy look Project Manager: a t I think a two y i it is hard to say from this picture Industrial Designer: We we have tried to make it the the best trendy look ever Project Manager: But I do think it is more User Interface: I will I will make it a three because I I th Project Manager: But I do think that it is more trendy than beautiful So so I think maybe it has to score higher on this than on the Marketing: I was planning to give it a two where I give the not ugly oh that is true You agree on the two ? Project Manager: I i when you compare to the Marketing: Great Remote control has not got too much redundant or unneeded buttons Project Manager: what is the difference with Marketing: I copied that one Well forget that Go away Remote control has got innovative technology implanted User Interface: well maybe the the the on the side Project Manager: but we you mean the rubber stuff ? but we have t we have to talk about the lights Industrial Designer: But that that is not innovative Project Manager: And I do not you also it is also really not innovative Marketing: It is not seven ? Project Manager: No six Or seven maybe Marketing: Why why not a seven ? Industrial Designer: Because we have tried to make it a little bit innovative Project Manager: it is depends on the on the maybe Industrial Designer: With the lights it it is it is kind of future Project Manager: No I think I think actually it is a seven maybe but there is nothing innovative about it Marketing: you think the lights are innovative ? Well it is n true I agree Industrial Designer: But still you can retrieve it when it is when it is gone with the with User Interface: Innovative in generally or just f original for Marketing: I will you you did not draw the docking station Industrial Designer: Yes The docking station is a is a little bit innovative Marketing: it it is I think I think with its User Interface: A docking station is innova Project Manager: I mean the dock station but but I think the the docking station it is going to be a kind of a problem Industrial Designer: It is a part of the remote And with the speaker on the there is also a speaker Project Manager: Well let us leave it open for for us later to see what because we have to reevaluate anyway Well I i Marketing: No well the agenda says evaluate now so I think we Project Manager: for now it is a six or a seven sev Marketing: It is it is a six Industrial Designer: But the retrieval or the Project Manager: but I do not I do not know if it is very inno Marketing: for the retrieval function I think that is very innovative for a remote control Industrial Designer: Yes how would you innovate a remote control more ? Project Manager: more through like function TV functionalities and Industrial Designer: To put it on your head Project Manager: no no you know what I mean You have must be innovative technology for remote controls but more in how you control stuff not in how you find your Marketing: But I d I definitely do not think it is a five Project Manager: that is that is think about it la later on Marketing: Remote control is easy to use","The team agreed that the prototype had a moderate appearance and it really depended on the individual taste of each customer. Some might find the device really fancy. However, the function that enabled the user to design for its own front look stood out since this could add value to users' favour towards personalities. The team also came to an agreement that the remote control's relevant buttons were prominently visible and relevant to each other, making the device easy to use. There was also a speaker incorporated into the device, solving the problem that sometimes it was out of sight. Meanwhile, the innovation of this device which was without a LCD display or any other technology required functions was not that satisfactory." "Project Manager: but I actually do not need this presentation I guess Oh I am going to open the spreadsheet and we are going to work this out together because I did not really fin I have a Did not really finish it Well we We will see We will stumble upon some problems I probably have already opened it here try it again First of all the mm all the docking station and costs and such are not included in this list But let us let us st start with beginning We include one battery I i I will explain its the the components are listed over here price is given We we we indicate the amount of components of the specif specific component how much we need of them And then we will calcula Do not watch the number yet I do not know if it is filled in properly we need one battery One battery I think one battery is enough We do not need kinetic solar cells hand dynamo A s this this is a p first problem I think we should know how many simple chips regular chips Industrial Designer: it is it is one one chip but but you have to choose one from it The simple chip is e enough I I think but with the lights with the lights and the retrieval it can be Project Manager: Where did we find this information ? Was it Marketing: I have not got an idea on on which we need to use really Project Manager: I think it was your job in the first meet f your first presentation to make this clear but then you had some t time problems Industrial Designer: No I Yes my my my The the email I got said simple chip but when we put in the speaker and the retriever device it will cost a a bit more like I think the advanced chip maybe Marketing: And how do you know ? I mean you got that email Did it point out what to use them for ? Industrial Designer: Bec No the they did not know about a retriever or a speaker in it Project Manager: Maybe you can look it up right now but When we do not when we leave the retriever and such aside what Industrial Designer: Then it is a simple chip Project Manager: then it would be a simple chip And with the retriever it would be an advanced chip Industrial Designer: Yes I I I s I Marketing: Alright well point out the advanced chip for now I guess Industrial Designer: That will be enough for future recommendations Project Manager: but it will it will it will be because a lot of problems The sample sensor sample speaker What is it m is that the speaker we were t I do not know what it is Industrial Designer: I do not know it either Project Manager: we went for the doublecurved case made out of plastic and rubber And with a special colour I guess that is what we were I do not know about the special colour but I think w Industrial Designer: Otherwise you get a standard plastic colour Marketing: I do not know if it is very special Project Manager: I think we we have special colours then the pushbutton I was just counting them I think you have to indicate the amount of pushbuttons we want to use is not it ? User Interface: Whoa it is a little Project Manager: Well that is bit of a problem because I re but I really do not understand that because I can imagine a remote control with far more pushbuttons and it would not be possible according to this sheet User Interface: That is huge No We have the simplest buttons Industrial Designer: No it is only when you use pushbuttons it will cost that much Marketing: I do not think so because it says amount Industrial Designer: If you use a scrollwheel Marketing: The the the yellow row is the amount of Project Manager: Fill in the number of components you plan to use in the and the total cost I do not know I Industrial Designer: Maybe it is the kind of pushbuttons You can have f four kind of pushbuttons User Interface: Is that one or is that nine buttons ? Project Manager: And I count them like this One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve and thirteen Because Oh this is oh this is one Twelve then it would be eighteen because I rated them as as separate buttons Marketing: that is total of four buttons Project Manager: And plus these two f plus the mute button and it is will be eighteen Marketing: I think that Eighteen One two three four five si Industrial Designer: Why is that so expensive Project Manager: I do not understand Y I do I do not get the point because it is would be s relatively so expensive just these m small buttons User Interface: Is it cents the the the fifty cents a button ? Marketing: Fifty cents for one single stupid button Industrial Designer: So whe when you so then it Project Manager: Well well well let us make it just one Industrial Designer: It is eighty percent of the price of the of the amount of Project Manager: Here now it is now it is already s shall we just give our own interpretation to because else we would really have a problem It would be impossible to make it Marketing: I I I could not understand it if it was fifty cents per per button Really Industrial Designer: When you have the same amount of button you have to put in wi in your carton Board Project Manager: And and less buttons than this is not possible This is the most simple it is possible but I have never seen one before Industrial Designer: I have seen one one remote control with only the pu only with page up page down and volume Project Manager: without the numbers That is possible we could skip the numbers Marketing: but I d I would not want to own that Really Industrial Designer: it is it is still for little children They can handle that remote control Project Manager: Then teletext would also be i am impossible Industrial Designer: but but it is not fo Yes it is for it is li it is just for a little User Interface: that is no option that is no option Project Manager: we will we will just But then still when we there is no room for a docking station or something Tha w Le let us see th we have oh button supplements We will give the buttons special colour We will give them a special form I think we should mark the special form thing because it this will be some special forms incorporated in these big buttons I guess User Interface: A special colour why a special colour ? Project Manager: Because the buttons will be d will be matching colour between the buttons and the rubber surroundings User Interface: But wha what s what special ? Project Manager: I think that is the what they mean by a special colour Industrial Designer: Otherwise it would be the Marketing: I do not think the special form is really true Project Manager: I think all the special colour things have to be marked over here because that is what we were planning to do making it Industrial Designer: Special form also it says Project Manager: because i has rubber And the buttons have to be rubber Industrial Designer: What is the normal material ? Project Manager: Kay but the problem now is that the There is no such thing as a docking station in this list but we can all imagine that it would be impossible to make a docking station for thirty cents Industrial Designer: But we can sell the remote control and sell the docking station yes And and but we do not have to tell it but what we can say of can almost make it impossible to buy a remote control without the docking station Project Manager: but I do like the idea but we It but it then the docking station is not relevant for this project anymore but we can Industrial Designer: No but you otherwise you can not retrieve it Project Manager: but then you still have to use we have to find out what chip we you need Marketing: I really do not get it I mean if it is a simple chip then we suddenly got two Euros and thirty cents Project Manager: I think we can agree on this I I think the special colour thing has to be marked Because I think we I think that is what what what they mean Industrial Designer: But for two Euros and thirty cents we we do not get a docking station Marketing: I think so too Oh I do not know Project Manager: But can we find out about this chips ? Because when we do not need a d a docking station then probably we also have only we also need a simple chip User Interface: And then we can get a docking station Project Manager: And maybe then we can do something extra Oh n oh still oh it is going to get more expensive with Two Then we have some money left We can put then We can put a scrollwheel on it or something well who knows Or a little bit of tin titanium Marketing: I mean i i if you if it would cost two Euros that had a total a total thing it would be nice too I mean we are not going to add a trip to Hawaii to it User Interface: But what what can we do Project Manager: or we can ki do the kinetic cells That is also maybe an idea User Interface: But what can we do with the simple chip and what is difference with a regular chip and a advanced chip ? Project Manager: that is what then what he has to find out Maybe you can find it in your email right now then we know then we exactly know what it will cost us Maybe is that that is nice to know User Interface: Regular chip and because we do not have special functions to use in advanced chip for example Project Manager: bu bu but when we but when we skip when we when we do not use the do we are not going to make the docking station then we still we need something else maybe to make it kind of special Marketing: I like the hand dynamo part Project Manager: because that was our our special feature Marketing: We can make a plain docking station for two Euros User Interface: We will go back tomorrow Project Manager: you can also do that but maybe It still is a special remote control cons you know wi its form is special and material Marketing: but but we can make a docking station for two Euros if you do not put the recharge function in it I mean it has a shape Project Manager: but for two Euros then we have still maybe we have to use the advanced chip Marketing: Of course it has a shape but i i Project Manager: then two Euros is not even possible Marketing: Why should that not be possible ? Project Manager: then because then we would thirty cents left Marketing: No for for the for the docking station if you do if you choose the simple chip Project Manager: but I do not know because maybe d we have to find out with the simple chip User Interface: That is the question If we do i do we need an advanced chip or is it f Project Manager: and w and and we need f Industrial Designer: It is not in my information so I do not know it either Project Manager: and what is this ? Sample sensor sample speaker Industrial Designer: It is not in my information I I I have got a schematic view of the remote control but nothing about advanced chips or Project Manager: You can look at it for s presentation S technical functions ? Industrial Designer: I have got here in User Interface: No no they were mine Industrial Designer: I will put a I will put a page on it When my mouse works again Project Manager: Oh oh oh Hey Oh Industrial Designer: Oh Ah I have got it I will put my email on the the network Marketing: What the hell are these ? Project Manager: Mm I do not think here it is in here already User Interface: It is circuit board It is only just basics for for Project Manager: It is nothing about s User Interface: At the end circuit there is an infrared LED Project Manager: No But i in the presentation of yours there was also something about different components Which one was it ? Marketing: No that was my presentation User Interface: Components design maybe N on top Project Manager: Ah Ah yes it was the second one Industrial Designer: But that was my second Marketing: It is at the bottom It is at your task bar User Interface: but it is the the other one Project Manager: this is n this is not this n User Interface: Was it working design or components design ? Project Manager: that is not the right one I do not oh No this is the other one Or maybe something is maybe there is something abo in in these Industrial Designer: But this is the same This is o only the possibilities We can use a simple a regular or advanced chip Marketing: nice I it does not say anything User Interface: The display requires an advanced chip Project Manager: You know that a pushbutton requires a simple chip but a scrollwheel it it me requires so we only need a simple chip User Interface: Little lights but that that is just the same as the the LED Project Manager: No no that is just a simple chip A scrollwheel it s only states that a scrollwheel requires a regular chip and that a display requires an advanced chip So we do not need any of them Marketing: A display is of course for showing letters For showing text I do not think that just a l a little light User Interface: No I think the normal simple chip will be Project Manager: And what is the sample sensor slash sample speaker ? Industrial Designer: Maybe you can say against the remote page f page up page down User Interface: true Well that is not too what we want Marketing: Next channel No Well we might want it but Industrial Designer: Twelve Euros and fifty cents Project Manager: So we are going to use the simple chip Industrial Designer: And the lights Where are the lights ? Marketing: Well there are three I guess Project Manager: Nah there is some money left to be spent User Interface: Can we do it wi within two two Euro ? Marketing: I think we can make a docking station Project Manager: but what we have to think about now is that is is it still a special remote control ? But I mean it is not it has not got any innovative technology we are not going to apply any innovated innovative te technology anyway I think I do not I do not see any possibility to do so because it would would not fit our defi design philosophy User Interface: Mmhmm But it is original Project Manager: But what w is there some extra maybe I think maybe the kinetic thing is something Instead of the rechargeable the rechargeable thing was something to know so y so people would not have to worry about their batteries anymore Maybe we if we put the kinetic thing in it Industrial Designer: But but sometimes you put a Project Manager: you leave the p I know but still I they will think about that I mean if you you Industrial Designer: Kinetics are not nowadays only used in watches and that is because you are always walking Project Manager: The it is made for s people well the they do not if it was r useless technology they would not put it as a possibility And i it it th th the the target Marketing: Or the hand dynamo dynamo Project Manager: the target group are people who zap regularly and throw with their remote control as a matter of speaking Because I think it when when there w was a remote control where it was useful to have a kinetic power source then it would be this one Because it is one it gets thrown around thrown around a lot and it gets used a lot Hey that maybe that is cool that is a cool thing about it you know You do not use batteries Marketing: but but if we ca Project Manager: I have never seen it before in a remote control User Interface: But then we could make a docking station Marketing: I do not know if Five minutes Project Manager: No we we we can not make a docking station anyway we can als or also m we we can make one User Interface: Wow w why no li Marketing: We can make a docking station for two thirty User Interface: Look at now we got two Industrial Designer: Fo for a docking station User Interface: two thirty left Ca can not we make a docking station of that ? Marketing: We can make a docking station Sure Industrial Designer: With a cable with buttons on it with retrieval device in it Marketing: The power device is is i i is very cheap That is just a regular power cable and whatever Project Manager: but be serious then the docking station will be a fifth of the price of the remote control Industrial Designer: Wi with a button to wi with a button to retrieve it so it will beep so it is wireless technology Project Manager: but we we do not inc we have not looked at the these costs of the speaker and other stuff I do not think it is realistic for you to do so Marketing: Well then it is a useless project Industrial Designer: the case the case of of of User Interface: then we do not have any innovation things Project Manager: We well look at all the special stuff we have Colour a the colours are special the form is special It th this is whole concept maybe it with the kinetic thing I think we could do do a compromise with the kim kinetic thing Marketing: Can not we Can not we say fifteen Euros ? Industrial Designer: No then we have to sell it for thirty Euros User Interface: No we only make less profit of it Marketing: You can sell for twenty seven and a half Then you make as much profit as you would with twelve and a half production costs Project Manager: I don my suggestion is to just forget about the whole docking station thing and make it like a I I I I still fee I also feel this concept of making it kinetic because of the you know it g it gives something dynamic to the remote control Industrial Designer: Maybe we can can do it both Maybe we can do it both in the in the in the remote Battery and kinetic Project Manager: No that would not n no and it is also not a good it is not you have to really do it only kinetic you do not want it to think about batteries anymore Industrial Designer: Yes but when it is then when it Marketing: but only kinetic then you got to Industrial Designer: then you have to shake it and all when it is when it is empty Marketing: You you got to throw throw it through the room like twenty times an hour really Project Manager: No no no No no this is very sophisticated technology technology When you use it your remote like once a day or maybe even less i i it Industrial Designer: You asked for three d No that is n that is not true a watch is kinetic because you walk all the time Project Manager: It We can make it no Becau be but a remote control gets why do they state that this technology can be used if it Industrial Designer: Yes solar cells are also stated Project Manager: m but a w n a calculator also works on r on solar cells Industrial Designer: Why do not we use solar cells then ? Project Manager: Because I think the d whole dynamic part do you know appeals to me qui thinking of our design philosophy you know with the rubber parts and sturdiness of the thing and y when you move it around a lot then people find the idea funny that when I move my remote control around and Marketing: it is funny for a week I guess something like that where you have to move it around very frequently is demotivating Project Manager: but you do not have to Trust me The idea of this technology is that you do not think about it it just happens Marketing: No I I do not move my my remote control very much seriously Project Manager: then we d well y we do not have to do it but what that would just have a lack of key features you know You m have to put something on your box You have to make people buy it and We can really can do the docking thing it is not we can do it but it is would be a easy way out Industrial Designer: You can do it for fifty cents Marketing: Well we have got more than fifty Cents Project Manager: but we have to grou to agree upon something Industrial Designer: The c The case the case alone is is is Project Manager: because we only have a minute left or so Industrial Designer: the case alone for remote control is at least one Euro Then we have one Euro thirty for the whole docking station Project Manager: No no it is not possible w b we can s we can leave it on be well then then th it is this is then then our concept is ready we make some extra profit of it Marketing: No we will not but that is something else User Interface: It w it will not tell but Marketing: No this not going to sell No User Interface: we just have to go all what we did today again You have to do it over Marketing: We come back tomorrow ? Project Manager: No no there is still there is still someth concept and something special left I mean we are going to it is going to excel in in on in the the range in the field of design and and looks and feel That is what it is makes it special and I would li I would have liked a kinetic part as well to give it some just to give it some extra special feature and I know it will work but it is it is an They are they are not putting technologies on this but if it if it was impossible to to make it happen Industrial Designer: Why not a hand dynamo then ? Project Manager: well we leave it like this Then it is c then we are Marketing: We can not do anything else Warning finish meeting now","Firstly, the team agreed that only one battery is enough and using kinetic was not a must since it would be too expensive and useless. Secondly, one chip was enough and they were going to choose one from different types of regular chips. However, as the team found out they could incorporate more valuable components, the team decided to use one advanced chip for now. In terms of the material used on the device, the team decided to use a combination of rubber and plastic with one small part used in one special materia, like titanium, as well as a special color. Moreover, the teletext was discarded and the docking station was added. As for the infrared LED, although it was originally presented on Marketing's powerpoint, the team agreed that it was not helpful. Later, the team found that regular chips were enough for the scroll-button and only the LCD display required the advanced ones, so again the team came back for the regular chip and cut some costs. In the end, the team incorporated solar cells for the battery." "Industrial Designer: what does the interface look like ? well push button that is that is the one we are all familiar with we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it to go up and down change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something you can have multiple scroll buttons this is maybe getting a little bit complicated but it is it the technology is there And we can also incorporate an LCD display in the remote but this will increase the cost the electronics that actually makes the device work we have basically got three simple regular advanced and the price goes up as we choose each of this If we want the nice cheap one the simple then we can only have push buttons All the other fancy interface designs go out the window I am afraid pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more but it that is what you need if you want the LCD display And the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed sample sensor sample speaker devices Now I do not know what that is but I think they think it is quite important and we might want to incorporate it somewhere ou our real expertise is in push buttons I have to say but maybe you think that is old technology And well I I think we have got two options We can either go for a really cheap model keep all of the costs down which means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple push buttons Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer I think it will not necessarily l look like a pineapple but that may or may not be a good thing Sorry but it could have an LCD screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons and it could have the the companys new development of the sample sensor and speaker So thank you Marketing: That sounds good Any idea you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference do you have any idea if if this could if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty ? Industrial Designer: I am afraid I do not have that information available manufacturing did not actually give attach any prices to any of this I am afraid Marketing: Because you know what I am being quite serious when I say that that the things I mentioned are hot But I think the important thing might be to choose one You know if if what you are telling me is is some of these things are not just f are not feasible maybe we could something about naming we could call it you know Blackberry User Interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of the company so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it Marketing: Alright well let us see then User Interface: But I I do not know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company It is just what I would understood we would be doing That is before I heard about all this hot tips about the future fruitwise Industrial Designer: We we could we could do a double curved rubber one Marketing: I am trying to streamline mine a little bit Industrial Designer: which would allow say a banana but unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that we have to have a push button as the interface we can not do anything fancier User Interface: Shall we wait til I have til I have showed you what well my extensive presentation on what sort of interfaces are available You did seem to include just in more detail what I have got though So so mines a bit pointless Right FN and F eight did you say ? I do not have it on mine though Marketing: Oh I think Florence resolved it by Industrial Designer: I If you do F FN F eight again it is it will Project Manager: Keep doing it until you get it in both you get it there you get it yours without that one Industrial Designer: I think it you you will do an Project Manager: and then you get it with both User Interface: Should I do it again ? Project Manager: This time it should come up both User Interface: Right then I do not actually have a huge amount of different information then what Kate says just that my method was to look at the well my my inspirations which was a big collection of lots of different models of remote controls and other things that use a similar sort of thing including MP three players like you know hifi remotes not just television and these things having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones what functions we actually need and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber handheld piece I have been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel which Well I could not find a the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser so I could not copy and paste it but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right It has scroll wheels without without a display but they they scroll like a computer mouse So I was thinking that a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen Like I guess an existing Sky or cable one does Like you know you press enter and it comes up with what is showing on that channel at the moment and you can do you can scroll along and it will show you what is on in the next half hour and you scroll up and you can see what is on the other channels while you are watching the same channel on the screen but I am also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice big easy buttons to press but still quite simple and quite cost effective So what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple not fancy but not totally minimalist I mean just pretty simple plastic probably I was thinking yellow and black just because that is the companys colours with very very few buttons but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen like you know just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes which is far too expensive And when you have got a screen sitting there in front of you you might as well have it appearing on the screen in front of you it does not obscure much of the actual picture you are watching And so on that you can just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote scroll along scroll up and down Industrial Designer: I would I would certainly support that idea","User Interface suggested a simple plastic remote control in yellow and black with few big buttons which could correspond to a screen on the television screen. But this idea of having a screen on the television screen was faced by Industrial Designer's objection. Industrial Designer preferred scroll buttons, and a simple but functional menu on the screen, and simple push buttons. In the end, they chose a push button for better feasibility." User Interface: And it is a little bit pointless as well I think Like when when when you have got when you have got the screen there it does not have to be anything fancy just a little menu showing a menu you go into one menu and then it can have your different options whether you want to change the settings or the you know your information about programme that is on at the moment I do not think that is to taxing to s engineer But as for actually arranging them let me go back to the to the picture of the kiddie one And I quite like it because it is just smooth and handheld and it is got these easily reachable buttons that quite nicely spaced out so something a bit like that with buttons arranged in a kind of circle Up down left right,User Interface thought it was rather meaningless to put the screen on the television screen. It would be better if they only made a menu with different options through which users can change the settings and find information about programs. "User Interface: having a think about the feature of ea the features of each ones what functions we actually need and then how to group and arrange these on the actual the actual plastic or rubber handheld piece I have been especially interested in the iPod style scroll wheel which Well I could not find a the picture of the iPod w only linked to a web browser so I could not copy and paste it but it had a similar thing to this thing on the right It has scroll wheels without without a display but they they scroll like a computer mouse So I was thinking that a really simple a really simple interface with just a couple of scroll things on it and then instead of a display the display could appear on the television screen Like I guess an existing Sky or cable one does Like you know you press enter and it comes up with what is showing on that channel at the moment and you can do you can scroll along and it will show you what is on in the next half hour and you scroll up and you can see what is on the other channels while you are watching the same channel on the screen but I am also equally taken with this chunky plastic kiddie remote which is really nice and fun and good to hold and nice big easy buttons to press but still quite simple and quite cost effective So what seems kind of ideal for me would be to just have a fairly simple not fancy but not totally minimalist I mean just pretty simple plastic probably I was thinking yellow and black just because that is the companys colours with very very few buttons but that would correspond to a screen that would appear on the television screen like you know just small along the bottom instead of instead of having the iPod style display screen on the actual remotes which is far too expensive And when you have got a screen sitting there in front of you you might as well have it appearing on the screen in front of you it does not obscure much of the actual picture you are watching And so on that you can just much in the same way as an existing Sky remote scroll along scroll up and down Industrial Designer: I would I would certainly support that idea","User Interface suggested a simple interface with a few scroll wheels on it, but User Interface also appreciated the idea of chunky plastic remote control with big buttons, which was simple, easy to use and cost effective." "Industrial Designer: you are going to be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you but I am afraid this is the real world So I have been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate and I have had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division who have told me what is actually available you know what the current state of the art in components is and some of the exciting new things they have got but I am not sure that it is quite what you want Now this is not a very good overhead but this is just to show you this is the innards of a remote control I really need a pen or something but does my mouse work ? No oh can you see my little mouse pointer ? Right This is this is the a a a remote that is been opened up and that is the the back of the interface And this is a pushbutton one so you see these little little buttons here they are little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here and we that is the basic construction that we have got to got to accommodate We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver So I wan I want to go through not not just addressing the the the points that you made Sarah but doing my presentation in the order I wrote it So first of all I want to talk about what possibilities we have got for the energy source we can have your bog standard double double A batteries in a replaceable little compartment We can have a hand sorry a windup which I think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control but i it maybe is does not quite go with the the fruit and veg one that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source Project Manager: Remember we only have forty minutes Industrial Designer: where you you actually get the energy by moving the device which is quite a ni a nice and neat one You have to it means that if it is sitting there for a long time it probably will not work but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then it will work Or we we had talked about solar power but I thing that we agreed that that is not so good in the dark","The group rejected the idea of wind-up because it wasn't suitable for the theme of the remote control, and the idea of solar power because it was inconvenient to use in darkness. Industrial Designer suggested using the kinetic as the source of power. This opinion was accepted by the group because of its convenience, light weight, fancy design and the good selling point of the environment." "Project Manager: The You were saying that the kinetic would be useful that is you just have to move it some and you would be able to use it as opposed to a battery that you have to either put it in a recharger or keep replacing the batteries or solar that you would have difficulty with it if it is a dark day that it will die on you and no way to do it That is the day you want to use the TV so what is our pleasure here what would be the cost consequences of each of the three ? Industrial Designer: Oh unfortunately I do not have costing information I i in terms of workability I I think the the two frontrunners are the standard battery or the kinetic but I am sorry I do not figures on the difference in cost Project Manager: What is the feelings of the group on the kinetic ? Marketing: I have used kinetic in terms of watches and it is very very handy you do not even notice that it is there User Interface: It sounds great I have never come across it before but it sounds fantastic Sounds like it could be g a really good economical it would make the whole thing a lot lighter more convenient Marketing: It could tie in with the fanciful design User Interface: Because it is really a quite attractive thought Marketing: throw the banana you know just got to keep it moving User Interface: is not it ? It is like Project Manager: So the consensus seems to be use the kinetic if it is at all possible User Interface: But it does depend how much I mean how much it costs and how much more development and research it needs Industrial Designer: And and how much you do have to keep it moving because I am conscious that watching TV can be quite a sed sedentary activity Marketing: But I could market that as a as a a I was thinking actually a a cost saver down the road in terms of battery you know User Interface: Do your exercises while you are watching the TV Industrial Designer: True m more more environmentally friendly User Interface: that is what I was thinking as well Project Manager: Thanks for the reminder for five minutes to finish thanks the next thing that they wanted us to do was look at chip on print as a decision Industrial Designer: I would that that is something I maybe should have covered chip on print is just a manufacturing technique and I would certainly recommend it I think because I am not sure I have an alternative I i it it is just the way that the the the th the way it is ac it is actually built Project Manager: Oh the way we uhhuh Industrial Designer: and you you print onto the circuit board like you might print onto paper Project Manager: Oh what about the case ? I think they are talking there about do we want wood plastic titanium or rubber and I think we have discussed not having titanium One it is too expensive and second it will not do this double curves we have sort of eliminated wood We said plastic or rubber What is the pleasure ?","The kinetic was both useful and convenient. Users only had to move it instead of putting it into a recharger or changing the batteries, and it could also be used easily in dark places. More importantly, it could be a good selling point that doing exercises when users were watching the TV helps the remote control work." Industrial Designer: and that is the the back of the interface And this is a pushbutton one so you see these little little buttons here they are little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here and we that is the basic construction that we have got to got to accommodate We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the message to the receiver So I wan I want to go through not not just addressing the the the points that you made Sarah but doing my presentation in the order I wrote it So first of all I want to talk about what possibilities we have got for the energy source we can have your bog standard double double A batteries in a replaceable little compartment We can have a hand sorry a windup which I think is quite an interesting concept for a sorry for a remote control but i it maybe is does not quite go with the the fruit and veg,"Industrial Designer argued that compared with the traditional energy source - double A batteries in a replaceable little compartment, wind-up was a quite interesting concept for the remote control. But this concept didn't get along well with the possible banana theme of the remote control. Therefore, the kinetic energy source would be a better choice." "Project Manager: Finances that is what we have here what you drew We have battery power we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor The sample sensor and for speak recognition anyway So which you see the which is de o one of the most expensive parts So well we have sin one curve a design Rubber design And we had a special colour Suppose yellow is a special colour So just half a Euro for You have pushbuttons and an LCD display You have the total of seventeen Euros in production cost which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use So easy What do we scrap Well think I had the best solution that I came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition User Interface: I would say that too Project Manager: Because the LCD has more support on customer side There are ninety one percent of the people or something like that But ninety percent who favour an LCD display and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition I think it is also harder to User Interface: we do not really have a extra function with the speech sample which you can not do with a normal remote control which people already do So Project Manager: I took that out So and so it is still stuck with thirteen so I had to take out the special colour I suppose And I did not see anything else I could take out I could take out the pushbuttons but we need those So generally what I came up with in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half Euros spe scrap speech recognition and the separate covers can account for the if people want it we will just then we will do it in black We will just deliver it in black have the it has all the function that it is supposed to have and if you want it if you want the custom design then you can buy the separate covers You make it d orange or whatever you want User Interface: I would I tend to disagree with you on that because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this Project Manager: It was a big issue but User Interface: So can not we just basically extend it to thirteen ? Project Manager: I will just go back let us just let us see what let us just see what we no we we have to be under twelve and a half the project is a nogo if we go over twelve and a half Industrial Designer: but there is another problem But there is another problem If we take another cover for instance black then we also need another button frame because black and black does not work obviously Project Manager: I think you that is what you were ass assigned to do really to to see how b th both those work together So I think it is I think it is y one of the it is a good way to to help people to make to keep the product trendy too Just keep you just make new covers for the for it And everything that is left is is the basic function that that we want our product to have Because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip But we need that for the LCD display Then again we have the LCD display which is also expensive B but those go together And we could take out the curve Industrial Designer: Or say let us lose rubber take plastic User Interface: We could take out a curve indeed Project Manager: Could we could take out the curve Is that an option ? Industrial Designer: Although we are demolishing a little bit the style User Interface: I think the colour is more important than the really the curve because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control Project Manager: I think it is it it does ruin it but the fact that I t took that decision or t Took this example actually not really decision but the example is because we do offer the the possibility of adding your own custom covers So you can change any colour you want So it is just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want Industrial Designer: Can we then not also change the material ? We take plastic for the basic cover Project Manager: but I d it is something that is stuck into my mind is that something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of the spongy feeling of the Industrial Designer: We can put those to the to the other covers Project Manager: and it really makes it also makes it different from the existing remote controls because they are all plastic So which in in turn because it does not break Industrial Designer: But what do you then suggest we would lose ? Because we have to lose two things and I guess Project Manager: I al like I said I lost the speech recognition and I lost the special colour which would make this black a black and grey Industrial Designer: and that is enough ? Project Manager: that is that that that is enough because User Interface: So black and grey is Project Manager: I guess those are the basic colours I think those are basic col They want to Marketing: The people want to pay for for it so why why do we have to keep us on the twelve and a half ? Project Manager: To ensure the profit That that is th that is the order We are just we are the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company which say we do not want to spend more than twelve fifty for this Marketing: But we can take a risk Project Manager: But that is not for our that is not our decision to take We have a budget of twelve fifty per product User Interface: We need to stick to that Project Manager: Stick that I do not think it is really bad either I mean if we we have the the backup of or the backup design thing Marketing: I hope the people will like it Project Manager: I think they would do Th I think they do like because yo we you we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want So I think it is the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should make m Project Manager: and keep the functionality between of within the th the boundaries of the your f your budget Industrial Designer: Perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost And that is they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost that they know that Project Manager: Well I do not think Is it worth is it is it does it mean anything to the customer ? Like it like we do not care we do not care that you had to Industrial Designer: Of course Perhaps they no but perhaps they think the cover is such a nice idea let us that that then they that allow us to make some more costs We ca we we can at least tell them that Project Manager: but we did we did not get that So I think it is Industrial Designer: You do not know that Project Manager: it should either be a pack maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something Industrial Designer: No I am not talking about that cost but the one that g has given us the order to design this We could at least m make it like this like you said and then tell them we had to drop this and that just that you know It is an still an option but not for this price Project Manager: It is an option but it is true So actually it is not that much of an increase but We can not contact them It is just the order that we got So that is what we got to go with So it is either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final it is either turned into plastic drop the squishy feel make it make it more breakable or turn it yellow So It is something we have to decide on Industrial Designer: I would say lose the curve and the colour Project Manager: I say lose the curve Oh that is true we could lose the c I forgot that sorry the curve So User Interface: So which curve is that ba Project Manager: That is just this one just d this is the banana curve User Interface: that is basically that curve Project Manager: So this would this would be straight User Interface: So we could you still have the comfort Project Manager: No no that would be a curve inside the thing I guess No would ju then it would just be a straight remote Just like like that Which would turn it into something far more ordinary we could make it yellow then but You second that you second that we lose the curve User Interface: No that it would turn out to be a pretty straightforward remote control So that is not really that Project Manager: So I think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world so to speak So we keep the curve So the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber And I am in favour of keeping the rubber because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has User Interface: I would say I would agree with you on the colour because that is an extra option an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money So we can always do that Project Manager: I guess people are willing to pay for that So I think we can take that option and just with with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control So I think that would still make it a nice product we are final on that So it is too bad we can not make the whole super thing But anyways we are here","They all agreed that speech recognition could be taken out, because LCD had more support on the customer side, and it did not give an extra function compared to other normal remote controls. As for the special colour, they had some disagreements initially, since User Interface thought it could not reflect the current trend anymore if it was taken out. However, after evaluating dropping other features such as rubber or curve, they agreed that both of them brought more advantages than the special colour. Besides, the colour could be made up by using special covers." "Project Manager: easy What do we scrap Well think I had the best solution that I came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition User Interface: I would say that too Project Manager: Because the LCD has more support on customer side There are ninety one percent of the people or something like that But ninety percent who favour an LCD display and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition I think it is also harder to User Interface: we do not really have a extra function with the speech sample which you can not do with a normal remote control which people already do So Project Manager: I took that out So and so it is still stuck with thirteen so I had to take out the special colour I suppose And I did not see anything else I could take out I could take out the pushbuttons but we need those So generally what I came up with in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half Euros spe scrap speech recognition","Project Manager thought speech recognition was the first option to be scrapped. Project Manager made this decision according to the feedback from customers. Around ninety percent of people preferred an LCD display, while only sixty percent of people wanted speech recognition." "Industrial Designer: I would say lose the curve and the colour Project Manager: I say lose the curve Oh that is true we could lose the c I forgot that sorry the curve So User Interface: So which curve is that ba Project Manager: That is just this one just d this is the banana curve User Interface: that is basically that curve Project Manager: So this would this would be straight User Interface: So we could you still have the comfort Project Manager: No no that would be a curve inside the thing I guess No would ju then it would just be a straight remote Just like like that Which would turn it into something far more ordinary we could make it yellow then but You second that you second that we lose the curve User Interface: No that it would turn out to be a pretty straightforward remote control So that is not really that Project Manager: So I think it would be a good idea to keep the curve to separate it from the rest of the remote control world so to speak So we keep the curve So the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber","Industrial Designer proposed to give up the curve, but other people argued that the remote control would turn into something ordinary and be a straightforward remote control. Project Manager thought it would be a good idea to separate their product from the rest of the remote control world. Therefore, they decided to keep the curve." "Project Manager: I still have the the total report to finish up I think we took very little time now because we are in agreement everything the design is The one thing we missed though we do not have a product name How about you cook a how about you cook up a product name ? Industrial Designer: we have not think above about that Huh It is better than thi I think than a serial number Sony TR something f means nothing to me Project Manager: oh think of a catchy name I will be working on this until the beep until it beeps So Marketing: Fruit name or something like that The banana remote or something Project Manager: You do not want it to resemble a banana Marketing: I do not know it is the form of it Project Manager: It is not yellow anyway User Interface: The bana because it is not yellow anymore Project Manager: It is not yellow anymore User Interface: Well I was going for the RC deluxe but it is not really a catchy name or anything Industrial Designer: at least it is not something with numbers Numbers are so meaningless to the people I mean User Interface: Something with our company name can we do anything with that ? Maybe there is something on the website which will help us out Project Manager: Real Reaction future RC Step into the future of of remote controlling your TV User Interface: Is that a name or a c campaign ? Project Manager: No that is a that is a catchy slogan User Interface: Or the The real reactor Project Manager: I go for future RC probably Something like It is short f Industrial Designer: The Real Reactor I do not find that that bad at all User Interface: You should write it down as a an option Industrial Designer: Because our name is Real Reaction Project Manager: That makes me think of different products than a remote control really I am not sure Real reaction in a real User Interface: So that is one option Project Manager: Real reactor Did not notice Industrial Designer: I am looking for things in the name So that the first three letters are s the same REA REA User Interface: Should I write the banana down or Industrial Designer: The triple R Real Reaction remotes control Triple R User Interface: do you mean it like You mean it like this ? Marketing: Real Reaction Remote Control R three C Oh Project Manager: No not like that It should be it should be longer because it is not a product name that you f print on a box Just write out triple like a word triple RC triple stripe Oh Triple dash R dash s s C Marketing: Triple RC The triple RC R s R three C Industrial Designer: I think I like it like this more Project Manager: Dash Triple R or triple RC ? User Interface: Like a C right now or a dash in a C ? Project Manager: How about do both ? Sure if it looks stupid I think that the the RC together takes away the the the image of it is a triple the first the first one looks like it is a triple remote control but it is only a single remote control And it is especially on the triple R that is important The Real Reaction Remote Industrial Designer: I would huh I would lose the C and just name it triple R User Interface: Is it triple RCs ? No Industrial Designer: It sounds like thinking about two different things and combining it I would just say triple Rs triple R User Interface: Well that is another option Industrial Designer: That is also short catchy User Interface: so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? I say this one as well Project Manager: I think we are all in agreement about the triple R I think triple R is cool And it looks cool when you print it in font looks pretty cool Industrial Designer: did you do now ? Project Manager: Just like this just and you just print triple R it looks does not look bad","They drafted several potential product names, including ""banana"", ""RC deluxe"", ""real reactor"", ""triple RC"", etc. They concentrated on adjusting the ""triple RC"", and eventually decided on ""triple R"". The group thought this name was cool, and especially looked cool when it was printed in the front, and it was catchy." "Industrial Designer: The triple R Real Reaction remotes control Triple R User Interface: do you mean it like You mean it like this ? Marketing: Real Reaction Remote Control R three C Oh Project Manager: No not like that It should be it should be longer because it is not a product name that you f print on a box Just write out triple like a word triple RC triple stripe Oh Triple dash R dash s s C Marketing: Triple RC The triple RC R s R three C Industrial Designer: I think I like it like this more Project Manager: Dash Triple R or triple RC ? User Interface: Like a C right now or a dash in a C ? Project Manager: How about do both ? Sure if it looks stupid I think that the the RC together takes away the the the image of it is a triple the first the first one looks like it is a triple remote control but it is only a single remote control And it is especially on the triple R that is important The Real Reaction Remote Industrial Designer: I would huh I would lose the C and just name it triple R User Interface: Is it triple RCs ? No Industrial Designer: It sounds like thinking about two different things and combining it I would just say triple Rs triple R User Interface: Well that is another option Industrial Designer: That is also short catchy User Interface: so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? I say this one as well Project Manager: I think we are all in agreement about the triple R I think triple R is cool And it looks cool when you print it in font looks pretty cool","""Triple RC"" made the product look like a triple remote control, but it was only a single remote control. In addition, the important part was triple R anyway, Real Reaction Remote. Therefore, they decided to drop C from this name, and just keep ""triple R""." "User Interface: so which ones are we going to scratch definitely ? I say this one as well Project Manager: I think we are all in agreement about the triple R I think triple R is cool And it looks cool when you print it in font looks pretty cool","They agreed to cross out 'banana remote', 'the deluxe' from the options. They all agreed on the 'triple R' without arguments, because the group thought it looked cool when it was printed out. In addition, it was short and catchy." "Grad A: Right Right I mean so we are we are collecting a corpus and I think it s going to be generally useful I mean it seems like it s not a corpus which is has been done before And so I think people will be interested in having having it Undergrad D: you Using like audio D V Ds or something like that ? Grad A: Well or something audio D V C Ds And and so how we do we distribute the transcripts how do we distribute the audio files how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? PhD C: Well I think I mean for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the LDC for instance Grad A: Right but but so should we do it in the same format as LDC and what does that mean to what we ve done already ? PhD B: Right The It s not so much the actu The logistics of distribution are secondary to pause preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution Grad A: Right So as it is it s sort of a pause ad hoc combination of stuff Dan set and stuff I set up which we may want to make a little more formal So PhD B: And the other thing is that University of Washington may want to start recording meetings as well in which case w w we will have to decide what we ve actually got so that we can give them a copy Grad A: I was actually thinking I would not mind spending the summer up there That would be kind of fun Visit my friends and spend some time Well and then also I have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits So I have a bunch of scripts with X Waves and some Perl scripts and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are And if YOU d UW s going to do the same thing I think it s worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well And what I ve done is pretty ad hoc so we might want to change it over to something a little more standard You know STM files or XML or something Undergrad D: An and there s interest up there ? There s interest up there ? Grad A: Well they they certainly want to collect more data And so they are applying I think I B Is that right ? Something like that for some more money to do more data So we were planning to do like thirty or forty hours worth of meetings They want to do an additional hundred or so hours So they want a very large data set but of course we are not going to do that if we do not get money So And I would like that just to get a disjoint speaker set and a disjoint room I mean one of the things Morgan and I were talking about is we are going to get to know this room really well the the acoustics of this room Undergrad D: Did you notice the fan difference ? PhD B: Oh now you ve touched the fan control now all our data s going to be Undergrad D: Do you want to leave it off or not ? Grad A: All the others have been on Undergrad D: things after the f then This fan s wired backwards by the way I think this is high speed here PhD B: Well it s well like `` low `` is mid mid scale Undergrad D: Maybe it Maybe it is not PhD B: So it could be that it s not actually wired backwards it s just that ambiguous Undergrad D: I was wondering also Get ready comment whether the lights made any noise So do our meetings in the dark with no air conditioning in the future Postdoc E: I think candles would be nice if they do not make noise PhD C: It would you know it would real really mean that we should do short meetings when you turn off the comment turn off the air conditioning Undergrad D: Short meetings that s right Or sort of comment r r PhD C: got to finish this meeting Undergrad D: Tear t pause Tear your clothing off to stay cool Actually the a th air the air conditioning s still working that s just an auxiliary fan PhD C: So in addition to this issue about the UW stuff there was announced today via the LDC a corpus from I believe Santa Barbara Postdoc E: I saw it I ve been watching for that corpus PhD C: And I do not know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there s a lot of different styles of speech and what not Postdoc E: They had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have DAT recorders PhD C: I see So it is sort of far field stuff Right ? Postdoc E: I I assume so actually I had not thought about that Unless they added close field later on but I ve listened to some of those data and I I ve been I I was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up PhD B: What s it sound like ? Postdoc E: I m glad to see that it got released So it it s a very nice thing Grad A: I wish we had someone here working on adaptation because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting You know PhD C: But it may be it may be useful in Postdoc E: How do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or Grad A: No software to adapt the speech recognition PhD C: Well what I was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing if it s far field stuff right ? In doing some of our first automatic speech recognition models it may be useful to have that kind of data because that s very different than any kind of data that we have so far Postdoc E: And and their recording conditions are really clean I mean I ve I ve heard I ve listened to the data Grad A: Well that s not good right ? PhD C: That s that s not great Postdoc E: well but what I mean is that Undergrad D: But far field means great distance ? I mean And so that s why they are getting away with just two channels or something or are they using multiple DATs ? Postdoc E: oh good question and I can not ans answer it Grad A: Well we can look into it PhD C: No and their web their web page did not answer it either So I m I was thinking that we should contact them So it s that s sort of a beside the point point But Grad A: So we can get that just with media costs PhD C: in fact we get it for free cuz they are distributing it through the LDC Grad A: So that would be that would be something to look into So PhD C: So I can I can actually arrange for it to arrive in short order if we are Postdoc E: The other thing too is from from a Grad A: Well it s silly to do unless we are going to have someone to work on it so maybe we need to think about it a little bit Postdoc E: The other thing too is that their their jus their transcription format is really nice and simple in in the discourse domain But they also mentioned that they have it time aligned I mean I s I I saw that write up PhD C: Maybe we should maybe we should get a copy of it just to see what they did so so that we can we can compare Grad A: OK why do not you go ahead and do that then Eric ? PhD C: Alright I will do that I can not remember the name of the corpus It s Corps S Postdoc E: Corpus of Spoken American English sp I ve been I was really pleased to see that I knew that they they had had some funding problems in completing it PhD C: Apparently this was like phase one Postdoc E: Got it through the LDC PhD C: and the there s still more that they are going to do apparently or something like that unless of course they have funding issues and then then it ma they may not do phase two but from all the web documentation it looked like `` oh this is phase one `` whatever that means Postdoc E: Super Super Great that I mean they are really well respected in the linguistics d side too and the discourse area and So this is a very good corpus PhD C: But it it would also maybe help be helpful for Liz if she wanted to start working on some discourse issues you know looking at some of this data and then you know So when she gets here maybe that might be a good thing for her Grad A: Actually that s another thing I was thinking about is that maybe Jane should talk to Liz to see if there are any transcription issues related to discourse that she needs to get marked PhD C: Maybe we should have a big meeting meeting Undergrad D: That would be a meeting meeting meeting ? Grad A: Well this is the meeting about the meeting meeting meeting So PhD C: Right But maybe we should find some day that Liz Liz and Andreas seem to be around more often So maybe we should find a day when they are going to be here and and Morgan s going to be here and we can meet at least this subgroup I mean not necessarily have the YOU dub people down Grad A: Well I was even thinking that maybe we need to at least ping the YOU dub to see PhD C: We need we need to talk to them some more","The team discussed the various institutions, like University of Washington and Santa Barbara, that were involved in the transcription task. The team wanted to know how diversity of sound would effect their data. The team also wanted more corpuses and have more students at future meetings." "Grad A: Right Right I mean so we are we are collecting a corpus and I think it s going to be generally useful I mean it seems like it s not a corpus which is has been done before And so I think people will be interested in having having it Undergrad D: you Using like audio D V Ds or something like that ? Grad A: Well or something audio D V C Ds And and so how we do we distribute the transcripts how do we distribute the audio files how do we how do we just do all that infrastructure ? PhD C: Well I think I mean for that particular issue ther there are known sources where people go to to find these kind of things like the LDC for instance Grad A: Right but but so should we do it in the same format as LDC and what does that mean to what we ve done already ? PhD B: Right The It s not so much the actu The logistics of distribution are secondary to pause preparing the data in a suitable form for distribution Grad A: Right So as it is it s sort of a pause ad hoc combination of stuff Dan set and stuff I set up which we may want to make a little more formal So PhD B: And the other thing is that University of Washington may want to start recording meetings as well in which case w w we will have to decide what we ve actually got so that we can give them a copy Grad A: I was actually thinking I would not mind spending the summer up there That would be kind of fun Visit my friends and spend some time Well and then also I have a bunch of stuff for doing this digits So I have a bunch of scripts with X Waves and some Perl scripts and other things that make it really easy to extract out and align where the digits are And if YOU d UW s going to do the same thing I think it s worth while for them to do these digits tasks as well And what I ve done is pretty ad hoc so we might want to change it over to something a little more standard You know STM files or XML or something","The team thought that their corpus was new and unique and that others would be interested in using it. They decided that they should keep DVD's, tapes, LDC's and other formats for sending the data to others. And they wanted to standardize their data formats." "PhD C: So in addition to this issue about the UW stuff there was announced today via the LDC a corpus from I believe Santa Barbara Postdoc E: I saw it I ve been watching for that corpus PhD C: And I do not know exactly how they recorded it but apparently there s a lot of different styles of speech and what not Postdoc E: They had people come in to a certain degree and they and they have DAT recorders PhD C: I see So it is sort of far field stuff Right ? Postdoc E: I I assume so actually I had not thought about that Unless they added close field later on but I ve listened to some of those data and I I ve been I I was actually on the advisory board for when they set the project up PhD B: What s it sound like ? Postdoc E: I m glad to see that it got released So it it s a very nice thing Grad A: I wish we had someone here working on adaptation because it would nice to be able to take that stuff and adapt it to a meeting setting You know PhD C: But it may be it may be useful in Postdoc E: How do you mean do you mean mechanical adaptation or Grad A: No software to adapt the speech recognition PhD C: Well what I was thinking is it may be useful in transcribing if it s far field stuff right ? In doing some of our first automatic speech recognition models it may be useful to have that kind of data because that s very different than any kind of data that we have so far Postdoc E: And and their recording conditions are really clean I mean I ve I ve heard I ve listened to the data Grad A: Well that s not good right ?",Santa Barbara had released a corpus recently that had many styles of speech. The project used DAT recorders and had a lot of far field recordings. The recording in general were very clean. "Grad A: OK let s move on to electronics Undergrad D: d we we out of tape out of disk ? PhD B: No we are doing we are doing great Undergrad D: I I was looking for the actual box I plan to use but I c all I could I could not find it at the local store But this is the the technology It s actually a little bit thinner than this And it s two by two by one and it would fit right under the right under th the the the the lip Grad A: does everyone know about the lip on the table ? It s great Undergrad D: There s a lip in these tables And it oc I p especially brought the bottom along to try and generate some frequencies that you may not already have recorded Let s see see what it does to the But this was the just just to review and I also brought this comment along rather than the projector so we can put these on the table and sort of w push them around Grad A: And and crinkle them and Postdoc E: And th `` that `` being a diagram Undergrad D: That that s the six tables that we are looking at These six tables here with with little boxes sort of in the middle here Which es would I mean the the boxes are pretty much out of the way anyway I will I will show you the the cro this is the table cross section I do not know if people realize what they are looking at PhD B: You trying to pause screw up the m the microphones ? Undergrad D: Well why not ? I mean cuz this is what s going to happen You got plenty of data I will not come to your next meeting And and and you So this is the box s Grad A: Get your paper off my PDA ! Postdoc E: let let the record show that this is exhibit two B Undergrad D: That s right `` Or not to be `` the box there s a half inch lip here The box is an inch thick so it hangs down a half an inch And so the the two head set jacks would be in the front and then the little LED to indicate that that box is live The the important issue about the LED is the fact that we are talking about eight of these total which would be sixteen channels And even though we have sixteen channels back at the capture they are not all going to be used for this So there would be a subset of them used for obviously j just use the ones at this end for for this many So Excuse me you would like a a way to tell whether your box is live so the LED would not be on So if you are plugged in it does not work and the LED is off that s that s a tip off And then the would wire the all of the cables in a in a bundle come through here and o obviously collect these cables at the same time so this this notion of putting down the P Z Ms and taking them away would somehow have to be turned into leaving them on the table Grad A: Right Well we want to do that definitely Undergrad D: Right And so the you we just epoxy them down or something Big screw into the table and even though there s eight cables they are not really very big around so my model is to get a a a p piece of that that stuff that people put with the little you slip the wires into that s sort of shaped like that cross section Grad A: Oh OK not just sleeve them all ? Undergrad D: I m I m r a I m going up and then I m going down Grad A: And leave them loose ? Postdoc E: That looks like a semi circle PhD B: It s like a it s a sleeping policeman Grad A: Speed A `` sleeping policeman `` ! Undergrad D: it s like a speed bum An Postdoc E: Speed bump That s good There we go s Undergrad D: And they are ac they are actually ext extruded from plastic They sorta look like this PhD C: What does that mean ? PhD B: That s the s that s British for speed bump PhD C: Is it a speed bump ? Undergrad D: So that the wires go through here Postdoc E: Oh is that right ? Undergrad D: s So it would c basically go on the diagonal here PhD C: It could go either way Grad A: So why do we have sixteen channels instead of like some fewer number ? PhD B: How else are you going to distribute them around the tables ? Grad A: Well OK let me rephrase that Why two each ? PhD B: Oh because then you do not have to just have one each So that if t if you have two people sitting next to each other they can actually go into the same box Undergrad D: And to See thi this is really the way people sit on this table Th Postdoc E: Which means two at each station Undergrad D: Well that that s the way people sit That s how many chairs are in the room Postdoc E: I m just saying that for the recording Undergrad D: And certainly you could do a thing where all sixteen were plugged in Grad A: But then none of these Undergrad D: if if you ha if you had nothing else Grad A: Right N none of these and no P Z Ms then PhD B: Only if you had Well it depends on this box right ? Undergrad D: Oh true enough And actually at the m my plan is to only bring eight wires out of this box Grad A: Oh I did not understand Undergrad D: This this box Thi thi thi this box is a one off deal Postdoc E: That being the wiring box Grad A: Oh I see I see Undergrad D: And it s function is to s to essentially a wire converter to go from these little blue wires to these black wires plus supply power to the microphones cuz the the he the cheap head mounteds all require low voltage Grad A: So so you would imagine some sort of in some sort of patch panel on top to figure out what the mapping was between each d of these two and each of those one or what ? Undergrad D: Well I w I I the simplest thing I could imagine i which is really really simple is to quite literally that these things plug in And there s a there s a plug on the end of each of these these ei eight cables Postdoc E: OK Each of the blue wires ? PhD B: But there are only four Undergrad D: An and there s only there s only four slots that are you know in in the first version or the version we are planning to to build So that that was the whole issue with the LED that you plug it in the LED comes on and and and you are live Grad A: Oh then it comes on I see I see OK good Undergrad D: Now the the the subtle issue here is that tha I I have not really figured out a solution for this So we it will have to be convention What happens if somebody unplugs this because they plug in more of something else ? Well the there s no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you are really not being powered So th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people rewire things",The team was thinking about the best way to incorporate the recording infrastructure in the room. They considered putting tapes in the lip of the table and LEDs to indicate the channel was live. The team also discussed power issues "Undergrad D: Well the there s no clever way to let the up stream guys know that you are really not being powered So th there will be a certain amount of looking at cables has to be done if people rewire things PhD B: I mean we I had that last time But there are actually that you know there s an extra there s a mix out on the radio receiver ? So there are actually six XLR outs on the back of the radio receiver and only five cables going in I had the wrong five so I ended up not recording one of the channels and recording the mix Undergrad D: How interesting D did you do any recognition on the mix mix out ? Wonder whether it works any PhD B: But I subtracted the four that I did have from the mix and got a pretty good approximation of the Grad A: And did it work ? Did it sound good ? Undergrad D: Are not science wonderful ? Grad A: So what s the schedule on these things ? Undergrad D: well I was wrestling with th with literally the w number of connectors in the cable and the the powering system And I I was going to do this very clever phantom power and I decided a couple days ago not to do it So I m ready to build it Which is to say the neighborhood of a week to get the circuit board done Grad A: Mm So I think the other thing I would like to do is do something about the set up so that it s a little more presentable and organized And I m I m just not sure what that is I mean some sort of cabinet Undergrad D: Well I can build a cabinet The the difficulty for this kind of project is the intellectual capital to design the cabinet",The team thought that a certain amount of rewiring was necessary to ensure a stable power supply. They also wanted to ensure that their equipment would not be plugged out. One way to solve this would be to build some sort of cabinet and collect the cables in one spot to avoid clutter. "Industrial Designer: so for the energy sources we can have a basic battery a hand dynamo which is which was used in the fifties for torches if you remember that kind of which would not be v would not be v v Project Manager: I do not think any of us remember the fifties User Interface: Is it like a crank thing or something Industrial Designer: It would not be very fancy You can have a kinetic provision of energy which is used on some watches these days So if you have just a bit of gentle movement that it will give it the energy to work Or you can use solar cells but I am not sure about that indoors really but User Interface: Well there is sometimes combinations I mean like calculators do combinations of battery with but also using some solar power Project Manager: Do sol solar panel things do they have to work from the sun or can they work from a light bulb ? Industrial Designer: I do not know actually User Interface: I think it has to be on the on the solar energy but I do not know Industrial Designer: I do not know Think the the what would cost the less would be the basic battery really And if we want something fancier I think the kinetic provision of energy could be nice but I do not know if it is worth the cost So we have got to discuss that For the case of the remotes itself they can be a general case which is just a flat one You can have a curved one or a double curved one if you know what I mean so Project Manager: What is a double curved one ? Industrial Designer: You know kind of more ergonomic that kind of suits the palm of your hand that kind of thing So then the case material itself so it can be either plastic or latex rubber wood or titanium And th for each of them you have cases where for example titanium you can not use it for if you if we are choosing a double curved case we can not choose titanium And if we are choosing solar cells then we can not choose latex for the case material so we just have to take that into account But if we are choosing just the flat case then we can go for anything And I think we discussed earlier on the R S I problem thing so we could Project Manager: So that might be an idea of using the rubber but then it should you know User Interface: Let us have a squeezable remote Industrial Designer: And also it does not break as easily maybe Project Manager: when a TV programmes got one watching the match and your teams just lost you can fuzz it across the room and it will bounce off the wall back at you Rubber we are all we are all going we are all liking that idea ? You think you can market that ? Marketing: But after my after my fashion thing I think you will realise that rubber is more Project Manager: Ooh we like rubber ooh Industrial Designer: And then there are the pushbuttons so you can have basic pushbuttons or a scrollwheels like you have on a mouse or you could have LCD which gives you a display scroll buttons as well So if you use a rubber double curved case you must use rubber pushbuttons So if we are going for rubber then we have to decide for the case and if we choose double curved then we have to go for rubber pushbuttons Project Manager: Well we are going to go with I think we have decided that it is going to be a rubber case so Industrial Designer: So it is a constraint but is it a double curved one or not ? If it is not a double curved then we have got the choice for the pushbuttons if it is a double curve we have got to go for rubber pushbuttons If that makes sense Project Manager: push buttons instead of the wheel ? User Interface: If it is rubber is not it malleable anyway it does not matter if it is double I mean is not a rubber case mean it is completely flexed I mean it it flexes to whatever they want it to ? Mean so what is the difference between a normal rubber case and a rubble doub double rubber double curved case ? Industrial Designer: No but na le you see you have got the energy that is one thing Project Manager: I will have a Big Mac please Industrial Designer: then you have the case is whether it is flat or curved And that is we do not care if it is rub rubber or not but then we have decided that we going for rubber for the case material So if we have chosen rub rubber and if now we have the choice for the case whether it is flat single curved or double curved And I am just saying if it if we choose it to be double curved then we need to go I do not know why but we need to go for rubber pushbuttons So either I do not know we just need to decide on the on the case Project Manager: Let us have rubber push buttons hey User Interface: Go rubber Go rubber the whole way Industrial Designer: Let us go crazy And then do I have a last slide ? Yes I do so the pushbuttons themselves they can be just simple or they can be so that is just the electronics between the but behind the pushbuttons and the price that go with it with it so the simple pushbuttons are going to be the cheapest if we get a scrollwheel that is a higher price range If we get an advanced chip which is used for the LCD the display thing then that is even more expensive Project Manager: Simple Chip on print It is a bit what I am not understanding here is advanced chip on print which I presume is like one PCB and that is got all the electronics on one board including the infrared sender ? Right what a what alternatives do we have to that ? Y what alternatives do we have to the chip on print ? Industrial Designer: Well if if it is not chip on print then I guess you get different chip components and you build them separately and does not include the infrared It is less expensive mm Technically speaking it is not as advanced but it does the job too Project Manager: So why would we not go for that ? If it is something that is inside the the unit I it does not affects whether the customers going to buy it or not Industrial Designer: Fo It does not Totally Project Manager: we want to go for an i i all Industrial Designer: So let us not go for the Project Manager: so long as it works you know So let us not let us not bother with the chip on print Industrial Designer: So it is either the scrollwheel or the pushbuttons Marketing: What about the just developed sample sensor ? G there the sample sensor sample speaker thing Project Manager: Well what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? Marketing: Mm I do not know Be cool Industrial Designer: It would be it would be cool but they are saying they have just developed it I am just guessing But it is going to be the most expensive option probably and User Interface: Th the the speech recognition option is it does not seem really very promising for us Project Manager: It is not something that we want to t go into with this product User Interface: because The the example that they are already using it for is with the coffee machine where basically you can program a sample wi That when you say something it will give a response and you program the response as well Just clips of tha that you record yourself So you can program your coffeemaker that when you say good morning to it it says hello Rick or whatever But I mean it is not it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the TV on like turn the TV on and i turns comes on but it is not that It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response Marketing: Oh it just gives an answer User Interface: So I mean like what is the point of saying Hello remote I mean hello how how are you ? Industrial Designer: Just if you are really lonely maybe Marketing: I thought I thought it was when they said User Interface: if you are really lonely it is it is Marketing: I thought when they said voice recognition they meant like Industrial Designer: Channel five And then it switches on Marketing: channel five and it will change User Interface: No tha that w that w that would be more promising Marketing: Like you talk to it Can I have channel five ? User Interface: It it is just a remote that talks to you I mean to certain cues Marketing: Oh then forget about it Oh right Industrial Designer: so I will go back maybe to the previous slide and we can decide for each problem what we should choose So for the energy source do we go for the battery or the User Interface: Kay I am fine with the basic battery Project Manager: It is cheap it is cheerful it is worked does work Industrial Designer: Cheaper option Are you happy with that ? So we will go for the battery Then the case do you want it flat or curved or sing or double curved ? Project Manager: We were go we were going with the late with the the RSI rubber were not we ? User Interface: so we want it rub rubber double curved Marketing: So it will look like something like this Industrial Designer: so then if we use double curved case then we have to you choose rubber pushbuttons Project Manager: Yep but we are going for the simple buttons Industrial Designer: and that is fine ? Project Manager: And it is cheapest all round it sounds kind of funky and we can also market it as i because we were s saying earl you were saying earlier in your research that the the people have the R people were getting the complaining about RSI and this is antiRSI So that is another marketing point that we can use Marketing: Well the rubber pushbuttons Do not you have to move your Project Manager: But anything is going to have buttons Even if it is a jog wheel it is still repetitive You Industrial Designer: I thought they would give an option of flat buttons or a Project Manager: You see you can still get it does you still get repetitive strain injury whether you are pressing a button or pressing a flat bit of screen It is the v it is the fact that you are pressing the same doing the same movement It is not actually what you are doing But the fact that this this rubber i is actually used in these antiRSI ps specific User Interface: We are giving them a way to burn off steam basically Marketing: so they can sit there and go like User Interface: Not that watching TV should be that stressful Project Manager: And you know you can fuzz it across the room and throw it at throw it at your children User Interface: Oh I guess TV can be stressful if you are watching sports Industrial Designer: Alright that is me done","They discussed the energy source, which can be a basic battery, a hand dynamo, a kinetic provision of energy like that on watches, or a combination of battery and solar power. Each kind of energy source has its own advantages and disadvantages. The basic battery costs less, and the kinetic provision of energy could be cooler and fancier. Regarding the design of the case, Industrial Designer claimed that it could be a general fact one, a curved one or a double curved one which is more ergonomic. Concerning the material of the case, Industrial Designer claimed that it could be plastic, latex, rubber, wood or titanium. At last they decided that the control is going to be a double curved rubber case, with rubber push-buttons and basic battery." "Marketing: What about the just developed sample sensor ? G there the sample sensor sample speaker thing Project Manager: Well what do we need a speaker for in a remote control unit ? Marketing: Mm I do not know Be cool Industrial Designer: It would be it would be cool but they are saying they have just developed it I am just guessing But it is going to be the most expensive option probably and User Interface: Th the the speech recognition option is it does not seem really very promising for us Project Manager: It is not something that we want to t go into with this product User Interface: because The the example that they are already using it for is with the coffee machine where basically you can program a sample wi That when you say something it will give a response and you program the response as well Just clips of tha that you record yourself So you can program your coffeemaker that when you say good morning to it it says hello Rick or whatever But I mean it is not it would be one thing if it was speech recognition where you say something and it turns the TV on like turn the TV on and i turns comes on but it is not that It just gives you a it just gives you a verbal response Marketing: Oh it just gives an answer User Interface: So I mean like what is the point of saying Hello remote I mean hello how how are you ? Industrial Designer: Just if you are really lonely maybe Marketing: I thought I thought it was when they said User Interface: if you are really lonely it is it is Marketing: I thought when they said voice recognition they meant like Industrial Designer: Channel five And then it switches on Marketing: channel five and it will change User Interface: No tha that w that w that would be more promising Marketing: Like you talk to it Can I have channel five ? User Interface: It it is just a remote that talks to you I mean to certain cues Marketing: Oh then forget about it Oh right","Marketing motioned for the idea of the sample sensor, which is something like a sample speaker, which has the function of voice recognition, and can help switch channels on hearing the direction of users. But this idea was abandoned because of unnecessity and expensiveness." "Project Manager: Gabriel Let us let us let us hear from you about the it is the interface User Interface: Alright Alright some of what I have to say ties into what Catherine was just talking about so I am continuing with the user interface topic And so basically I consulted with our manufacturing division It sounded like Catherine was also speaking with them I also took Reissas marketing findings from the last meeting into consideration because I think that is that is crucial as far as what keys we are going to inc inclu what buttons we are going to include and and how they are laid out and so the manufacturing division sent some some samples of of interface components that we might be interested in using that have been used in other products like the coffee machine So I already mentioned the speech recognition interface I guess we we basically vetoed that idea It is it is pointless it is just a sample sensor sample output It would just be probably the most expensive part of our remote without any actual interesting functionality as far as operating the TV so they they also give the they they suggested the idea of using a spinning wheel like you use on the side of an MP three player like iPod so we have already addressed that and I think that would actually be worse for something like RSI I mean you got that thumb movement that you are constantly doing and I I have a feeling that we are interested in in something more general but they suggested you know going i a little bit into a a niche like either gearing our remote towards kids where you could have lot of colours the keys might be you know funny or or or something for the elderly where the remotes very large and the buttons are very large and there is only a few buttons But you know we can we can discuss this but it sounded like from our last meeting we really wanted something that was general but done well So the key layout and design are really crucial You do not want you want people to be able to quickly access the buttons that they use a lot without always pressing the wrong one And I did not mention that we need a power button in our last I can give you an example here of good layout and bad layout from our manufacturing department So this would be an example of bad layout where you have volume up and volume down but they have a V on both of them so it is sort of confusing for the user this is the example of the giant remote that is impossible to lose Project Manager: Do we have an example of a good one ? Brilliant User Interface: And for something for kids And so I th I think my personal preferences of we have all kind of talked about and seemed to be on the same page so I was against the speech recognition and against going towards anything in in a niche sense I think it should be more general I did not I did not think the spinningwheel or the LC display were were crucial for us And that is it for me Project Manager: Well let us so w what are our definite decisions on this then as a team ? The The the the interface type we are going for User Interface: So we are we are not going to have any sort of display I think Project Manager: Just the simple s simple straight set of buttons User Interface: So it is just going to be just going to be pushbuttons I think we shall have a limited number of buttons ideally I mean a a power channel up channel down volume up volume down and a numerical keypad And some sort of it will either have a a lock button like we mentioned or or a cover or something like that I guess it is to the point where we need to decide about that Well now that we have decided on our Project Manager: Are we going to hav hav an are we d have we decided on whether w we are going to s supplement it with anything you know colours or particular gimmicky bits to it we are not we are just going to go for something User Interface: it seems like we would not want to make it too busy and too sort of gaudy but I would say mayb maybe a couple of colours like like a black with with yellow and somewhere like maybe the RR can be yellow or something like that Project Manager: Okeydokey I do not have any other questions on this Let us move over to User Interface: I I guess the fact also that we are having a rubber case would prevent us from having the cover function that we thought of before I mean because s so if we want to have a lock of some sort it would have to be a button But I think that should be I mean I can speak with the button department but I think that it should be easy to have a button that just prevents prevents the other the other buttons from operating Project Manager: the button that just does that User Interface: So that should be simple","User Interface made a presentation on buttons the control should include and on the layout of the buttons. The team vetoed the idea of the speech recognition interface which is expensive and unnecessary. At last the team decided not to have any sort of display, but a simple straight set of push-buttons, with a power, channel up, channel down, volume up, volume down, a numerical keypad, and a lock button or a cover. Then they discussed some supplements like colours or particular gimmicky bits. User Interface proposed the utilization of a couple of colours like black and yellow, with special parts like the RR logo in yellow. User Interface suggested having a rubber case for safety reasons." "Marketing: Right Well I am just basically letting you know what is happening in the markets and what the fashions are for next year So yes so from looking at this years trends and fashions and also recent investigation that we have done in the remote control market we have found that for the remote control market these are like most important aspects like that we really need to which we have already probably discussed the most important aspect is look and feel So the remote control has to look and feel fancier than the ones that already that we already have So it has to be Project Manager: why should people buy this when they are already got a remote that came with the TV ? Marketing: second it should be technologically innovative innovative So Project Manager: What is that mean ? Marketing: Technologically it should be like work basically I guess It should work User Interface: Well it should be it should be maybe cutting edge in some sense I mean have something that is little more technologically advanced than what is on the market Project Manager: now the trouble is is we have already decided that we are going with the stuff that works already that is cheap User Interface: Actually I mean these first two points we have already sort of gone away from because our rubber one is not fancy I mean it is different but I would not say like a rubber remote is fancy If that is what people want then we maybe we are going in the wrong direction And it is it is not technologically innovative either Marketing: That is why I was thinking Bluetooth because if you like put up Bluetooth and it is like a Bluetooth remote control everybodys going to like oh because Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays like it really is like people and when it comes to marketing like that is what people go for they do not really care whether you know at the end of the day whether it works properly or not Well they do but it is like it is not Project Manager: One hundred per cent that is your first thing you go oh I am not going to buy that because I do not know if it works or not Marketing: but it looks good If it looks good and it is it can just be there for decoration Project Manager: well what do you two think about this ? User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other Project Manager: what I do not understand what m User Interface: that is basically what it allows you to do Project Manager: and it this is just going to all this is being used for is your television Marketing: but I mean people like Project Manager: It would that would mean you would need a television that has Bluetooth in it which no no television does Marketing: Well if you are looking at if you looking at something that is going to be bought by people you have to make it new you have to make it state of the art Project Manager: does it ? That would mean we would have to make a television as well Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would for example enable you I think to connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone but your mobile phone is downstairs or something you would get on your television you are being called by this person right now Things like that Project Manager: No that would be your telephone in with your television User Interface: the that would not be the remote so much Industrial Designer: No but if you get Bluetooth on the remote you would be able to Project Manager: Nah the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible basically Industrial Designer: I with the television I was just trying to find an advantage Wha what w what advantage would you get for the Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing Marketing: Like it does not have to be you know Bluetooth that was just an idea but like it needs do something that you know is new Whether it is a battery it could be something really really minor you know like but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there and peopleve already seen it peopleve already got it If we want something new we need to move away from what we already have and just go creative Industrial Designer: Maybe the kinetic mo provision of energy then It is been done for watches but I have not seen that for remotes yet Project Manager: this that is that is very good Marketing: And then you can market it Never have to change a battery again Industrial Designer: Change the batteries ever again Project Manager: And and this is all tying in very nicely The fact that it is made out of this rubber we can throw it about Th we should encourage people to throw their remote controls about because it charges itself up by doing it Industrial Designer: well and in little characters you say but not too much Project Manager: But by the squeezing it the User Interface: we can make the squeezing of the rubber be the be the generating like the energy generator Project Manager: that is a great idea Well done Marketing: Third most important aspect is it is easy to use User Interface: we are all about that Marketing: And I think we have all worked that out in the fashion how it is supposed to look Next years fashion i very much in fruit and vegetables are thm are like the theme for cloths shoes and furniture So next year people will be buying I found this really funny you know strawberry shaped chairs User Interface: so we could have keys that are like a b like a broccoli key and a and an avocado key on them Project Manager: I want to watch the pineapple channel Marketing: Rubber things and as it is rubber the feel which is in this year is spongy so it is it is not quite spongy but spongy I would say is Project Manager: Well spongy that is where we are we are ahead of the game there User Interface: that is great for us Marketing: And so personal what I was just saying like move away from the current remote controls like the look and the feel of the current ones and change the look and feel while still keeping to the companys image basically So So we are moving in the right direction like Project Manager: Alright no this i this is good so through all that we have we go we are right we are going to go go back to going with the kinetic thing that is great using the spongy rubber that we were talking about that antiRSI you can as you squeeze it you are not only therapeuticising yourself you are charging the batteries and I am not sure about the buttons being in the shape of fruit though User Interface: I do not know how we incorporate We do not have to follow every trend I guess Marketing: Maybe make it like fruity colours or something User Interface: The power button could be like a big apple or something Industrial Designer: Well but Apple would sue you for that User Interface: They don they do not own all images of apples we will make it a pomegranate a big pomegranate Project Manager: Well it seems like the only thing that we have not really finally agreed on is its image Like we are we are saying no we do not want it to be fruit and vegetables but we do not know what it should be or like are we going it looks slick but what do what do we mean by slick sort of thing ? Marketing: Well I think if it is rubber it needs to be Project Manager: I mean you said earlier on i it should be funky Marketing: different I think it is it should be I mean what do you associate with rubber ? You know like Project Manager: L keep it clean keep it clean Marketing: sor I sorry I used the wrong word what do you associate with the mate the material that material ? like I am just thinking bright colours Bright natural colours nothing too Project Manager: Bright but not too bright Marketing: Like no lime green or bright yellow or bright pink Want To make it different colours so anybody can choo like like Project Manager: Like the volume buttons should be the all the same colour and the d and the the channel buttons should be one colour and stuff like that do you mean ? Marketing: And on the back of it have the logo User Interface: The one thing I am wondering about I hope that we are not going like too much down a gimmicky road of of having Project Manager: I mean we that is we we User Interface: I mean if somebody go goes into the store they are going to see like three or four normal remotes and then a big spongy pink t tomato remote Project Manager: This is the remote control tomato User Interface: I mean what are ninety per cent of people going to take ? Marketing: Well I can say in this country you will get you know lots of people wanting something really funky and cool Like and kids will be walking in with their parents saying Mummy I want to buy that one And parents will see the will see the pro as well because it is like kids will not break it it is not breakable if you throw it around Especially with younger kids you know they can pick it up and and The only thing is is that really small kids might chew on it but Project Manager: Well it is it is got to be chew proof Industrial Designer: I am going to write that down Marketing: so it is rea it is quite it is quite like user friendly and also for different families like like family use as well so for little kids and for old ki like teenagers will like it I think Especially maybe younger girls if it is in pink they will be like pink remote control for their room something Project Manager: So what are you saying maybe we should market it in different colours for different so we could do like the pink range the blue range the green range the Marketing: So like you walk in you are like oh I like that remote control because it is so bright and then and then the shop assistant comes up and says oh what colour would you like ? and then they go like oh I can choose the colour wow So it puts I think even the customer into more control over what they are buying instead of you have got all colour it is either that or nothing So they also get to pick Well personally I like walking into a shop and choosing a colour User Interface: I mean that that seems to work well with for products like iPod where you know you have a variety of colours that people feel like they are customising it when they buy it even you know just just by the fact of choosing Industrial Designer: Although I would be curious to see how many Marketing: D you have got the Industrial Designer: You know there are some colours that I wouldn I would never choose and I would be curious how many people choose that colour Project Manager: Well that is that can be down to bit of market researching you know if that is easy enough to find out what colours are more popular Industrial Designer: And produce less of the silly colours maybe","Marketing made a presentation on important aspects the team need to pay attention to concerning the remote control market. A most important aspect is its look and feel, so that the remote control has to look and feel fancier to meet customer's demands. The second point is that it should be technologically innovative. And then they found that the decisions the team had already made on interface didn't match the first two points that Marketing had raised. Then they discussed the Bluetooth function which was turned down and on the kinetic provision of energy. User Interface suggested using squeezable rubber which could be an energy generator. The third point that Marketing raised was easy to use. She suggested that next year's fashion would be fruits and vegetables so the team had the idea of making some buttons into fruit shapes. Regarding the color of the control, Project Manager had the idea of marketing the control in different colors for different groups of people like iPod." "Marketing: That is why I was thinking Bluetooth because if you like put up Bluetooth and it is like a Bluetooth remote control everybodys going to like oh because Bluetooth is the in thing nowadays like it really is like people and when it comes to marketing like that is what people go for they do not really care whether you know at the end of the day whether it works properly or not Well they do but it is like it is not Project Manager: One hundred per cent that is your first thing you go oh I am not going to buy that because I do not know if it works or not Marketing: but it looks good If it looks good and it is it can just be there for decoration Project Manager: well what do you two think about this ? User Interface: So is is the advantage of Bluetooth that you can just like synchronise it with other Project Manager: what I do not understand what m User Interface: that is basically what it allows you to do Project Manager: and it this is just going to all this is being used for is your television Marketing: but I mean people like Project Manager: It would that would mean you would need a television that has Bluetooth in it which no no television does Marketing: Well if you are looking at if you looking at something that is going to be bought by people you have to make it new you have to make it state of the art Project Manager: does it ? That would mean we would have to make a television as well Industrial Designer: Bluetooth would for example enable you I think to connect for example you if you get a w call on your mobile phone but your mobile phone is downstairs or something you would get on your television you are being called by this person right now Things like that Project Manager: No that would be your telephone in with your television User Interface: the that would not be the remote so much Industrial Designer: No but if you get Bluetooth on the remote you would be able to Project Manager: Nah the televi the television would have to be a Bluetooth compatible basically Industrial Designer: I with the television I was just trying to find an advantage Wha what w what advantage would you get for the Project Manager: An and there is no there is no such thing Marketing: Like it does not have to be you know Bluetooth that was just an idea but like it needs do something that you know is new Whether it is a battery it could be something really really minor you know like but I think we are really keeping to what is already out there and peopleve already seen it peopleve already got it If we want something new we need to move away from what we already have and just go creative","Marketing thought that Bluetooth is a fancy function that may attract customers. However, Project Manager reckoned that the Bluetooth function means that users need a television that has Bluetooth function. Televisions rarely have this function. Marketing thought that it would be a new trend and they need to move away from what they already had and go creative. But after all the proposal of Bluetooth was suspended." "Industrial Designer: And well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the our new remote control for television So can you go one page down please So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve what we want to do So mm I am thin I think I I will do a survey about what is what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible things we hav we can use Then I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see with h how this little box would look look like And how an and we can start troubleshooting first com communication problems or things like that And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or things like that so can you go down So wha what I think for now is we do not want to have a remote control w which is wired so I think we you we can use a battery for the Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication And the communication with the TV set is made through infrared communication So this is the the schema of the o of the future remote controls User Interface: Did you draw it ? Industrial Designer: so you can you can see the components battery and the two chips goes to the infrared connection to the TV set User Interface: What is the other chip for ? The one on top Industrial Designer: The one on top is for the well the functionali the functionalities and the the th red sorry the green one is is to well putting things together f transform the data into qu into the format to to to communicate with the TV set User Interface: For men To the in Industrial Designer: And that is it I think we should use a FPGA for for the functionalities which is easy to to t User Interface: Mm What is FPGA ? Industrial Designer: It is field programmable something array Marketing: It is a field programmable gateway arrays User Interface: So why is it how is it different from the Bluetooth ? Industrial Designer: Well a FPGA is just a chip you can you can pr programme it wi with wh whatever you want And well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to make the communication between the two devices User Interface: So this are the they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice Industrial Designer: No Well th the FPGA will produce the the data to send Marketing: Or it is something like is not hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software User Interface: Is the is the software par alri Marketing: to run th to make it run User Interface: So you can control if you want right ? Industrial Designer: Alright and that is it for the working design So if you have any questions ? Marketing: and how about the battery power ? you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? Industrial Designer: no no no no I think we have to to have embedded b batteries in in the And I I do not think it will need very much power to make it run so User Interface: Mm You can put it on the charger when you when you do not need to use it Industrial Designer: It is a good idea Marketing: Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always People do not like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out We just make a small charger User Interface: Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth if some people have PDA they can use their PDA to control the TV if they want to right ? Industrial Designer: That is a good idea Also but but I I I think the the goal is to sell our remote control Project Manager: we can change the b Marketing: we do not want to make it PDA Industrial Designer: S so charger for is the Project Manager: It is mine Participant one no ?",The team would add some software functionalities on programmable chips browsing by the content or things like that. They would use the FPGA for the functionalities and use chargers rather than batteries. "Industrial Designer: And that is it I think we should use a FPGA for for the functionalities which is easy to to t User Interface: Mm What is FPGA ? Industrial Designer: It is field programmable something array Marketing: It is a field programmable gateway arrays User Interface: So why is it how is it different from the Bluetooth ? Industrial Designer: Well a FPGA is just a chip you can you can pr programme it wi with wh whatever you want And well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to make the communication between the two devices User Interface: So this are the they have to work together ? Or ? Do they have to work together or two separate choice Industrial Designer: No Well th the FPGA will produce the the data to send Marketing: Or it is something like is not hardware the first one ? And the second one is for the software User Interface: Is the is the software par alri Marketing: to run th to make it run User Interface: So you can control if you want right ?","Industrial Designer said that FPGA was a field programmable gateway array. The Bluetooth chip was just responsible to make the communication between the two devices, but the FPGA was different. The FPGA would produce the data to send and it was for software." "Marketing: and how about the battery power ? you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared ? Industrial Designer: no no no no I think we have to to have embedded b batteries in in the And I I do not think it will need very much power to make it run so User Interface: Mm You can put it on the charger when you when you do not need to use it Industrial Designer: It is a good idea Marketing: Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always People do not like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out We just make a small charger","The remote control did not need very much power. Users could put it on the charger when they did not need to use it. People don't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out, so a charger could be more user friendly." "Marketing: after having the inputs from industrial design and user interface I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines and the users send the feedbacks and based on that These are the findings which we got and adding of a speech interface is always good for a TV remote but the technology We already know that as discussed earlier Industrial Designer: Well I I think it will be a yes a bit complicated to make a speech recognisers runs on the small ts Marketing: An it does how feasible it is User Interface: I mm But I think if you to recognise numbers it is a wellstudied problem I if you just recognise numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary Marketing: Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones Industrial Designer: And this can allow to choose the the program for instance without adding buttons so it is a good idea Marketing: it is not going to take much space also It is going to be very slim And next one was the size of the remote control It has to be of course a very slim and small one And of course most of the people are interested in if it is less expensive so this is an important criteria here is Project Manager: But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility Marketing: I mean we have to look for a tradeoff The features and the cost User Interface: I no I I think that i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with reasonable cost Maybe not less but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort Marketing: Little bit more if it is with extra features Industrial Designer: s s speech is a important extra feature I think Project Manager: But is it useful or not you I do not know Marketing: I mean for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes Or they say movie name or I do not go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel or volume up volume down brightness contrast So I think this should be a good idea to put this features And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages Industrial Designer: we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or well yes a microphone into the the remote control so Project Manager: If it is necessary can you can do that User Interface: What is the teletext ? Mm Project Manager: We can integrate small microphone in the remote so it is not really a problem What about lighting adaptive options ? Marketing: as discussed in the earlier meeting but I think not much people are really interested in this point if it is not really required Project Manager: According to the re to the new requirements I think we do not need that User Interface: It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller So you need s special TV sets to do that ? Or it is it is done via this remote controller ? It is very complex Industrial Designer: I think it is a bit complex too Marketing: I mean it is for the industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it is going to be working or not Industrial Designer: For our next product our new TV set with automatical sound adjustment light User Interface: then we can conclude that but it is quite possible but maybe not in this project","Marketing thought that users would be interested in a speech recogniser and it could help users choose the program then reduce the number of buttons. The remote control should be small and comparatively cheap. Not many people were interested in lighting adapting options, so it was for the Industrial Designer and Users Interface designer to decide if it's going to be working or not." "Marketing: And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines and the users send the feedbacks and based on that These are the findings which we got and adding of a speech interface is always good for a TV remote but the technology We already know that as discussed earlier Industrial Designer: Well I I think it will be a yes a bit complicated to make a speech recognisers runs on the small ts Marketing: An it does how feasible it is User Interface: I mm But I think if you to recognise numbers it is a wellstudied problem I if you just recognise numbers is a limited you have limited vocabulary Marketing: Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones Industrial Designer: And this can allow to choose the the program for instance without adding buttons so it is a good idea Marketing: it is not going to take much space also It is going to be very slim And next one was the size of the remote control It has to be of course a very slim and small one And of course most of the people are interested in if it is less expensive so this is an important criteria here is Project Manager: But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility Marketing: I mean we have to look for a tradeoff The features and the cost User Interface: I no I I think that i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with reasonable cost Maybe not less but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort Marketing: Little bit more if it is with extra features Industrial Designer: s s speech is a important extra feature I think Project Manager: But is it useful or not you I do not know Marketing: I mean for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes Or they say movie name or I do not go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel or volume up volume down brightness contrast So I think this should be a good idea to put this features And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages",The team would design a speech recogniser in the remote control to help choose the program. It would be small. They would balance the features and the cost when designing it. "Project Manager: What about lighting adaptive options ? Marketing: as discussed in the earlier meeting but I think not much people are really interested in this point if it is not really required Project Manager: According to the re to the new requirements I think we do not need that User Interface: It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller So you need s special TV sets to do that ? Or it is it is done via this remote controller ? It is very complex Industrial Designer: I think it is a bit complex too Marketing: I mean it is for the industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it is going to be working or not Industrial Designer: For our next product our new TV set with automatical sound adjustment light User Interface: then we can conclude that but it is quite possible but maybe not in this project",Lighting adaptive was a little bit complex. It was possible but not in this project. "User Interface: We maybe you can have a speech recognition interface You just tell the television I want which channel Or or you can say for example I want to list all the programme tonight Y you know instead of remote control it is doing the some searching for you so you do not have to look for the channel you want Just say maybe I just want to press I want to have a button for all the movies tonight Or a button for all the magazines all the information documentary tonight And then you list a few and I will choose from the list So instead of pressing the channel number I am choosing the programmes directly that is one way of making it useful Project Manager: I I think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly User Interface: it is not very a lot Th this information exists For example you can get Project Manager: Like s you you you say we can use speech User Interface: You can use well for example anything The the idea of using speech to reduce the button but and it is more natural Industrial Designer: I I think if you want t to choose from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use w I do not know Marketing: I mean the main function of remote control is to have something in the hand and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control If we are going to add a speech interface I am not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the TV itself could have it And I could talk to the TV television itself Project Manager: Except if if you are far from the TV Marketing: I need not have an I mean we have some or something different technology but User Interface: But th the main idea I wanted to s I wanted to say is that there should be a function instead of choosing the ch TV channel there is a option you can choose either TV channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme Industrial Designer: it is it is a good idea it is a good idea User Interface: So it is more powerful Industrial Designer: but I I think that technically it would be a little bit more tricky to to achieve this than just to User Interface: No No because you see now all the TV programmes are available on the webs They they are they are they are available in XML format or whatever the format We do not care We just say that this are some content We just want to retrieve the content and then classi sort them by the types of programmes Some of the websites they already provide this service so we can just use the service available Download it to the to this remote control","User Interface thought there should be a function, instead of choosing the TV channel, users could choose TV channels or the contents of the programme. It was more powerful. Some of the websites already provide this service so this technology is also available." "User Interface: We maybe you can have a speech recognition interface You just tell the television I want which channel Or or you can say for example I want to list all the programme tonight Y you know instead of remote control it is doing the some searching for you so you do not have to look for the channel you want Just say maybe I just want to press I want to have a button for all the movies tonight Or a button for all the magazines all the information documentary tonight And then you list a few and I will choose from the list So instead of pressing the channel number I am choosing the programmes directly that is one way of making it useful Project Manager: I I think if we include a lot of technology on the remote control it will be very costly User Interface: it is not very a lot Th this information exists For example you can get Project Manager: Like s you you you say we can use speech User Interface: You can use well for example anything The the idea of using speech to reduce the button but and it is more natural Industrial Designer: I I think if you want t to choose from a list of programme or or something like that you you may have to to use w I do not know Marketing: I mean the main function of remote control is to have something in the hand and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control If we are going to add a speech interface I am not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the TV itself could have it And I could talk to the TV television itself Project Manager: Except if if you are far from the TV Marketing: I need not have an I mean we have some or something different technology but User Interface: But th the main idea I wanted to s I wanted to say is that there should be a function instead of choosing the ch TV channel there is a option you can choose either TV channels or or pr or the or the contain or the contents of the programme Industrial Designer: it is it is a good idea it is a good idea User Interface: So it is more powerful","User Interface thought that with a speech recognition interface, users were choosing the programmes directly instead of pressing the channel number. It was not costly and it was different technology and more powerful." "Marketing: and we should be very careful about the size of the remote control If we are going to add a speech interface I am not sure with trendy slim size of the remote control it would be able to put a speech recog if you want to put a speech recognition system f interface for that I think the TV itself could have it And I could talk to the TV television itself Project Manager: Except if if you are far from the TV Marketing: I need not have an",Marketing said that the team should be careful about the size of the remote control. He proposed that TV itself could have a remote control system which could be user friendly. He was suggesting some different technology. "User Interface: And then there is there are only six buttons for six categories or sev seven The most there are only seven buttons So I just choose the category one and you reuse the same button for example to to choose among the the sorted list the programme you want so you do not have to choose among hundred channels if you have hundred channels you just have six buttons seven buttons Project Manager: we should also optimise the the number of buttons Industrial Designer: Well I I I I think that j just by using navigation buttons and the user interface on the screen we are able to navigate through the Well channel programme or contents or in an easy way so User Interface: Ah yes So so you do not have to display here just display on the TV screen right ? Industrial Designer: in the dis display on the TV screen and just with the with your remote control would just navigate through the f User Interface: I think I think that will be revol revolutionary Because all the TV the the remote control have all numbers lots of buttons and then you do not know what to choose in the end Alright",User Interface proposed that there should be six or seven buttons for the same number of categories. Users could use these buttons to choose hundreds of channels. These buttons could be navigation buttons. "User Interface: alright So so the most functional des mm the most important function is to ch choo buttons to choose the content Right ? We agree on that right ? first one is to buttons i or it could be anything with buttons to choose content s or channels So we have both The user can choose w which one they want right ? Industrial Designer: by content or by channel User Interface: By content or by channel Industrial Designer: it is a good idea User Interface: Choose by contents or by channels And then what did we say just now ? Other than this Industrial Designer: And we we have to find a way how to gather information about the contents User Interface: so technically how the problems that how to do it is to how to get the content Industrial Designer: I think i it is not very difficult to to browse by channel but it is a little bit tricky to browse by contents so User Interface: Content so these we have to work it out So this one of the problem And Industrial Designer: I think that is the the things to do and to reflect about it and discuss it in the next meeting User Interface: So we are we will discuss it we will get some information in the next meeting so for now we get the funct this is the functional designer ? That is the first aspect Right We will get information and then we will come back in","The team would talk about how to gather information about the contents, set the remote control system browse by channel or browse by contents and to reflect about it." "Professor B: So this is a particular human This is this i this is Stephane PhD D: So that s that s that s the the flaw of the experiment This is just i j comment it s just one subject but but still what happens is is that the digit error rate on this is around one percent while our system is currently at seven percent but what happens also is that if I listen to the nonvocalsound a re synthesized version of the speech and pause I re synthesized this using a white noise that s filtered by a LPC filter well you can argue that that this is not speech so the ear is not trained to recognize this But s actually it sound like pause whispering so we are Professor B: Well I mean it s There s two problems there I mean I mean so so the first is that by doing LPC twelve with synthesized speech w like you are saying it s i i you are you are adding other degradation",The team was filtering out white noise from the digit task using LPC. The concern was that LPC was not a great representation of speech. The LPC was adding degradation. "Professor B: Right ? So it s not just the noise but you are adding in fact some degradation because it s only an approximation and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that comment if you do it with whispered speech you get this number What if you had pause done analysis comment re synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in What would the percentage be then ? See that s the question So you see if it s if it s if it s Let s say it s pause back down to one percent again That would say at least for people having the pitch is really really important which would be interesting in itself if i on the other hand if it stayed up pause near five percent then I would say `` boy LPC n twelve is pretty crummy `` You know ? So I I I m not sure I m not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance PhD D: Ye Well the point is that eh l ey the point is that what I what I listened to when I re synthesized the LP the LPC twelve pause spectrum is in a way what the system is hearing cuz all the all the excitation all the well the excitation is is not taken into account That s what we do with our system And Professor B: Well you are not doing the LPC I mean so so what if you did a PhD D: Well it s not LPC sure Professor B: What if you did LPC twenty ? Twenty Right ? I mean th the thing is LPC is not a a really great representation of speech So all I m saying is that you have in addition to the w the removal of pitch you also are doing a particular parameterization so let s see how would you do ? So fo PhD D: But that s that s what we do with our systems And Professor B: No Actually we d we we do not because we do we do mel filter bank for instance Right ? PhD D: but is it that is it that different I mean ? Professor B: I do not know what mel pause based synthesis would sound like but certainly the spectra are quite different PhD A: Could not you t could not you test the human performance on just the original pause audio ? PhD D: Mm This is the one percent number Professor B: it s one percent He s trying to remove the pitch information and make it closer to what to what we are seeing as the feature vectors PhD A: OK So y your performance was one percent and then when you re synthesize with LPC twelve it went to five Professor B: I mean We were we were j It it it s a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition And i if you listen to them they still might not be very Even if you made something closer to what we are going to i it might not sound very good and i the degradation from that might might actually make it even harder to understand than the LPC twelve So all I m saying is that the LPC twelve puts in synthesis puts in some degradation that s not what we are used to hearing and is It s not it s not just a question of how much information is there as if you will always take maximum advantage of any information that s presented to you In fact you hear some things better than others And so it it is not But I agree that it says that the kind of information that we are feeding it is probably a little bit minimal There s definitely some things that we ve thrown away And that s why I was saying it might be interesting if you an interesting test of this would be if you if you actually put the pitch back in So you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in and see does that is that does that make the difference ? If that if that takes it down to one percent again then you would say `` OK it s it s in fact having not just the spectral envelope but also the also the the pitch that comment comment has the information that people can use anyway ``",The professor thought the LPC had two problems. It was adding degradation and there was an issue with pitch. The professor also expressed that the LPC was throwing away information that was useful. "PhD D: while our system is currently at seven percent but what happens also is that if I listen to the nonvocalsound a re synthesized version of the speech and pause I re synthesized this using a white noise that s filtered by a LPC filter well you can argue that that this is not speech so the ear is not trained to recognize this But s actually it sound like pause whispering so we are Professor B: Well I mean it s There s two problems there I mean I mean so so the first is that by doing LPC twelve with synthesized speech w like you are saying it s i i you are you are adding other degradation Right ? So it s not just the noise but you are adding in fact some degradation because it s only an approximation and the second thing is which is m maybe more interesting is that comment if you do it with whispered speech you get this number What if you had pause done analysis comment re synthesis and taken the pitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in What would the percentage be then ? See that s the question So you see if it s if it s if it s Let s say it s pause back down to one percent again That would say at least for people having the pitch is really really important which would be interesting in itself if i on the other hand if it stayed up pause near five percent then I would say `` boy LPC n twelve is pretty crummy `` You know ? So I I I m not sure I m not sure how we can conclude from this anything about that our system is close to the human performance PhD D: Ye Well the point is that eh l ey the point is that what I what I listened to when I re synthesized the LP the LPC twelve pause spectrum is in a way what the system is hearing cuz all the all the excitation all the well the excitation is is not taken into account That s what we do with our system And","PhD D expressed that the resynthesized version of the speech that LPC gave was not the same as speech. Though, the excitations were more clear in the resynthesized version." "Professor B: So the other Aurora thing maybe is I I do not know if any of this is going to pause come in in time to be relevant but we had talked about comment Guenter playing around over in Germany and and comment pause possibly coming up with something that would pause fit in later I saw that other mail where he said that he it was not going to work for him to do CVS PhD D: So now he has a version of the software Professor B: So he just has it all sitting there So if he will he might work on improving the noise estimate or on some histogram things or I just saw the Eurospeech We we did not talk about it at our meeting but I just saw the just read the paper Someone I forget the name comment and and Ney about histogram equalization ? Did you see that one ? PhD D: it was a poster Or Professor B: I mean I just read the paper I did not see the poster PhD D: It was something pause similar to n on line normalization finally I mean in the idea of of normalizing Professor B: But it s a little more it it s a little finer right ? So they had like ten quantiles and and they adjust the distribution So you you have the distributions from the training set and then So this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes I guess Right ? And then people do this in image processing some You have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever And and and then when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be pause better in some way you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data You do this kind of piece wise linear or some kind of piece wise approximation They did a one version that was piece wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the pause points And they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case comment as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way because you know in spectral subtraction you are trying to get rid of this excess energy you know it s not supposed to be there and this is sort of pause adjusting it for for a lot of different levels And then they have s they have some kind of pause a floor or something",Guenter from Germany expressed that CVS would not work for him. He was going to work on histogram equalization. Histogram equalization was mentioned in a recent paper published by Ney. The team discussed the paper and its implications. "PhD D: It was something pause similar to n on line normalization finally I mean in the idea of of normalizing Professor B: But it s a little more it it s a little finer right ? So they had like ten quantiles and and they adjust the distribution So you you have the distributions from the training set and then So this is just a a histogram of of the amplitudes I guess Right ? And then people do this in image processing some You have this kind of of histogram of of levels of brightness or whatever And and and then when you get a new new thing that you you want to adjust to be pause better in some way you adjust it so that the histogram of the new data looks like the old data You do this kind of piece wise linear or some kind of piece wise approximation They did a one version that was piece wise linear and another that had a power law thing between them between the pause points And they said they s they sort of see it in a way as s for the speech case comment as being kind of a generalization of spectral subtraction in a way because you know in spectral subtraction you are trying to get rid of this excess energy you know it s not supposed to be there and this is sort of pause adjusting it for for a lot of different levels And then they have s they have some kind of pause a floor or something so if it gets too low you do not do not do it And they they claimed very nice results PhD A: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? Professor B: I think this i You know I do not remember that Do you remember ? PhD D: I think they have different histograms I Something like one per pause frequency band PhD A: So one histogram per frequency bin PhD D: or But I did I guess But I should read the paper I just went pause through the poster quickly","PhD D had not read the paper, only the poster on histogram equalization. PhD D reported that the histogram equalization was similar to on-line normalization. There was a histogram for each frequency band." "PhD A: So is this a histogram across different frequency bins ? Professor B: I think this i You know I do not remember that Do you remember ? PhD D: I think they have different histograms I Something like one per pause frequency band PhD A: So one histogram per frequency bin PhD D: or But I did I guess But I should read the paper I just went pause through the poster quickly Professor B: And I do not remember whether it was pause filter bank things or whether it was FFT bins PhD A: And and that that pause histogram represents pause the pause different energy levels that have been seen at that pause frequency ? Professor B: I do not remember that And how often they you ve seen them And they do they said that they could do it for the test So you do not have to change the training You just do a measurement over the training And then for testing you can do it for one per utterance Even relatively short utterances And they claim it it works pretty well PhD A: So they Is the idea that you you run a test utterance through some histogram generation thing and then you compare the histograms and that tells you what to do to the utterance to make it more like ? Professor B: I guess in pri In principle",PhD A wanted to know what exactly the technique did. PhD A inquired into how the histogram may represent energy levels and how histograms could speak to what can be done with the model. "Professor C: OK what are we talking about today ? PhD B: I do not know Do you have news from the conference talk ? that was programmed for yesterday I guess PhD D: Yesterday morning on video conference Professor C: I know now I know what you are talking about No nobody s told me anything PhD A: Oh this was the talk where they were supposed to try to decide PhD B: To to decide what to do Professor C: No that would have been a good thing to find out before this meeting that s No I have no I have no idea so I mean let s let s assume for right now that we are just kind of plugging on ahead because even if they tell us that the rules are different we are still interested in doing what we are doing So what are you doing ? PhD B: Mm well we ve a little bit worked on trying to see what were the bugs and the problem with the latencies So We took first we took the LDA filters and we designed new filters using recursive filters actually Professor C: So when you say `` we `` is that something Sunil is doing or is that ? Who is doing that ? PhD B: So we took the filters the FIR filters and we comment designed IIR filters that have the same frequency response Well similar but that have shorter delays So they had two filters one for the low frequency bands and another for the high frequency bands And so we redesigned two filters And the low frequency band has sixty four milliseconds of delay and the high frequency band filter has something like eleven milliseconds compared to the two hundred milliseconds of the IIR filters But it s not yet test So we have the filters but we still have to implement a routine that does recursive filtering Professor C: You you had a discussion with Sunil about this though ? huh you should talk with him No I mean because the the the the whole problem that happened before was coordination right ? So so you need to discuss with him what we are doing cuz they could be doing the same thing and or something PhD B: Mm I I do not know if th that s what they were trying to They were trying to do something different like taking well using filter that takes only a past and this is just a little bit different But I will I will send him an email and tell him exactly what we are doing so Professor C: I mean We just we just have to be in contact more I think that the the fact that we we did that with had that thing with the latencies was indicative of the fact that there was not enough communication PhD B: Well there is w one remark about these filters that they do not have a linear phase So Well I do not know perhaps it perhaps it does not hurt because the phase is almost linear but and so for the delay I gave you here it s it s computed on the five hertz modulation frequency which is the mmm well the most important for speech so this is the first thing Professor C: So that would be a reduction of a hundred and thirty six milliseconds which What was the total we ended up with through the whole system ? So that would be within ? PhD B: but there are other points actually which will perhaps add some more delay Is that some other other stuff in the process were perhaps not very perf well not very correct like the downsampling which w was simply dropping frames so we will try also to add a nice downsampling having a filter that that well a low pass filter at at twenty five hertz because wh when when we look at the LDA filters well they are basically low pass but they leave a lot of what s above twenty five hertz and so this will be another filter which would add ten milliseconds again and then there s a third thing is that basically the way on line normalization was done is just using this recursion on on the on the feature stream and but this is a filter so it has also a delay and when we look at this filter actually it has a delay of eighty five milliseconds So if we If we want to be very correct so if we want to the estimation of the mean t t to to be well the right estimation of the mean we have to t to take eighty five milliseconds in the future Mmm Professor C: ! That s a little bit of a problem PhD B: But well when we add up everything it s it will be alright We would be at six so sixty five plus ten plus for the downsampling plus eighty five for the on line normalization So it s plus plus eighty for the neural net and PCA Professor C: but then there s Oh PhD B: So it would be around two hundred and forty so well Professor C: Just just barely in there PhD B: plus plus the frames but it s OK PhD A: What s the allowable ? Professor C: Two fifty unless they changed the rules Which there is there s some discussion of PhD A: What were they thinking of changing it to ? Professor C: well the people who had very low latency want it to be low very very very narrow latency bound And the people who have longer latency do not So Unfortunately we are the main ones with long latency but PhD B: and basically the best proposal had something like thirty or forty milliseconds of latency Professor C: so they were basically I mean they were more or less trading computation for performance and we were trading latency for performance And they were dealing with noise explicitly and we were not and so I think of it as complementary that if we can put the PhD A: Think of it as what ? Professor C: I think the best systems so everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system which is something actually we ve done a lot over the last thirteen years which is we say well this is the way we should do it And then we do it And then someone else does something that s straight forward So w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise We just you know trained up systems to be more discriminant And we did this RASTA like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise We did we actually did nothing about additive noise So the spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job And so we are talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff I think you should be able to end up with a system that s better than both but clearly the way that we are operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency To get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we would have to throw out most of what we are doing And and I do not think there s any good reason for it in the application actually I mean you are you are you are speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up It does not seem like it s that big a deal These are not large vocabulary things so the decoder should not take a really long time and PhD A: And I do not think anybody s going to notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency Professor C: So No What what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with the the the surgical microscopes and so forth how long was it from when somebody finished an utterance to when something started happening ? PhD A: we had a silence detector so we would look for the end of an utterance based on the silence detector And I I can not remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance but it was I would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds Professor C: and that s when you would start doing things PhD A: we did the back trace at that point to get the answer Professor C: Of course that did not take too long at that point PhD A: No no it was pretty quick Professor C: so you you so you had a so you had a a quarter second delay before plus some little processing time and then the the microscope would start moving or something And there s physical inertia there so probably the the motion itself was all PhD A: And it felt to the users that it was instantaneous I mean as fast as talking to a person It th I do not think anybody ever complained about the delay Professor C: so you would think as long as it s under half a second or something I m not an expert on that PhD A: I do not remember the exact numbers but it was something like that I do not think you can really tell A person I do not think a person can tell the difference between you know a quarter of a second and a hundred milliseconds and I m not even sure if we can tell the difference between a quarter of a second and half a second I mean it just it feels so quick Professor C: I mean basically if you if you said `` what s the what s the shortest route to the opera ? `` and it took half a second to get back to you I mean it would be f I mean it might even be too abrupt You might have to put in a s a s a delay PhD A: I mean it may feel different than talking to a person because when we talk to each other we tend to step on each other s utterances So like if I m asking you a question you may start answering before I m even done So it it would probably feel different but I do not think it would feel slow Professor C: Right Well anyway I mean I think we could cut we know what else we could cut down on the neural net time by by playing around a little bit going more into the past or something like that We t we talked about that PhD A: So is the latency from the neural net caused by how far ahead you are looking ? Professor C: And there s also well there s the neural net and there s also this multi frame KLT PhD A: Was not there Was it in the recurrent neural nets where they were not looking ahead at all ? Professor C: They were not looking ahead much They p they looked ahead a little bit I mean you could do this with a recurrent net And and then But you also could just I mean we have not experimented with this but I imagine you could predict a a label from more in the past than in than than in the future I mean we ve d we ve done some stuff with that before I think it it works OK PhD A: We ve always had usually we used the symmetric windows but I do not think Professor C: but we ve but we played a little bit with with asymmetric guys You can do it So So that s what that s what you are busy with s messing around with this","The team was looking at existing models and thinking about the various bugs that they had to deal with. The frequency differences in the FIR filters was one. Another thing they wanted to look into was handling additive noise, which they had not dealt with explicitly." "PhD A: And I I can not remember now off the top of my head how many frames of silence we had to detect before we would declare it to be the end of an utterance but it was I would say it was probably around the order of two hundred and fifty milliseconds Professor C: and that s when you would start doing things PhD A: we did the back trace at that point to get the answer Professor C: Of course that did not take too long at that point PhD A: No no it was pretty quick Professor C: so you you so you had a so you had a a quarter second delay before plus some little processing time and then the the microscope would start moving or something And there s physical inertia there so probably the the motion itself was all PhD A: And it felt to the users that it was instantaneous I mean as fast as talking to a person It th I do not think anybody ever complained about the delay Professor C: so you would think as long as it s under half a second or something I m not an expert on that","The team thought that around 250 milliseconds was a good heuristic to detect the end of the utterance. The utterance recognition also had some processing time attached, increasing the delay." "Professor C: I think the best systems so everything that we did in in a way it was it was just adamantly insisting on going in with a brain damaged system which is something actually we ve done a lot over the last thirteen years which is we say well this is the way we should do it And then we do it And then someone else does something that s straight forward So w th w this was a test that largely had additive noise and we did we adde did absolutely nothing explicitly to handle ad additive noise We just you know trained up systems to be more discriminant And we did this RASTA like filtering which was done in the log domain and was tending to handle convolutional noise We did we actually did nothing about additive noise So the spectral sub subtraction schemes a couple places did seem to seem to do a nice job And so we are talking about putting putting some of that in while still keeping some of our stuff I think you should be able to end up with a system that s better than both but clearly the way that we are operating for this other stuff does involved some latency to to get rid of most of that latency To get down to forty or fifty milliseconds we would have to throw out most of what we are doing And and I do not think there s any good reason for it in the application actually I mean you are you are you are speaking to a recognizer on a remote server and having a a a quarter second for some processing to clean it up It does not seem like it s that big a deal These are not large vocabulary things so the decoder should not take a really long time and PhD A: And I do not think anybody s going to notice the difference between a quarter of a second of latency and thirty milliseconds of latency Professor C: So No What what does wa was your experience when you were doing this stuff with the the the surgical microscopes and so forth how long was it from when somebody finished an utterance to when something started happening ?","The professor said that people adamantly insist on going in with a brain damaged system, overlooking straight forward solutions. He thought that the lag should not be too long for the task." "Grad E: Well I ve I ve talked to some of you already but I m looking into extending the work done by Larry Saul and John Allen and Mazin Rahim they they have a system that s a multi band system but their multi band is is a little different than the way that we ve been doing multi band in the past where Where we ve been comment taking pause pause sub band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets and then combining them some somehow down the line they are they are taking sub band features and training up a detector that detects for these phonetic features for example he presents a detector to detect sonorance And so what what it basically is is it s there s at the lowest level there it s it s an OR ga I mean it s an AND gate So on each sub band you have several independent tests to test whether there s the existence of sonorance in a sub band And then it c it s combined by a soft AND gate And at the at the higher level for every if The higher level there s a soft OR gate so if if this detector detects the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub bands then the detect the OR gate at the top says `` OK well this frame has evidence of sonorance `` PhD A: What are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? Grad E: And these are all Oh OK Well the low level detectors are logistic regressions and the Professor C: So that by the way basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network So that s all it is It s a sig it s a sigmoid with weighted sum at the input which you train by gradient pause descent Grad E: Right so he uses an THEM algorithm to to train up these parameters for the logistic regression Professor C: so I was using THEM to get the targets So so you have this this this AND gate what we were calling an AND gate but it s a product product rule thing at the output And then he uses i you and then feeding into that are I m sorry there s it s an OR at the output is not it ? so that s the product And then then he has each of these AND things And but so they are little neural neural units and they have to have targets And so the targets come from THEM PhD A: And so are each of these low level detectors comment are they are these something that you decide ahead of time like `` I m going to look for this particular feature or I m going to look at this frequency `` or What what what are they looking at ? What are their inputs ? Grad E: Right so the OK so at each for each sub band comment there are basically several measures of SNR and and correlation and he said there s like twenty of these per per sub band and for for every s every sub band e you you just pick ahead of time `` I m going to have like five pause i independent logistic tests `` And you initialize these parameters in some some way and use THEM to come up with your training targets for a for the the low level detectors And then once you get that done you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it s very robust compared to to typical full band Gaussian mixtures estimations of of sonorance And so so that s just that s just one detector So you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features You get enough of these detectors together then you have enough information to do higher level discrimination for example discriminating between phones","The team discussed how sonorance detection could constitute a low-level feature that their models detected. In one of the models, low level detectors are looking for specific sonorance features which are more robust than typical full-band Gaussian mixtures." "Professor C: So that by the way basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network So that s all it is It s a sig it s a sigmoid with weighted sum at the input which you train by gradient pause descent Grad E: Right so he uses an THEM algorithm to to train up these parameters for the logistic regression Professor C: so I was using THEM to get the targets So so you have this this this AND gate what we were calling an AND gate but it s a product product rule thing at the output And then he uses i you and then feeding into that are I m sorry there s it s an OR at the output is not it ? so that s the product And then then he has each of these AND things And but so they are little neural neural units and they have to have targets And so the targets come from THEM PhD A: And so are each of these low level detectors comment are they are these something that you decide ahead of time like `` I m going to look for this particular feature or I m going to look at this frequency `` or What what what are they looking at ? What are their inputs ? Grad E: Right so the OK so at each for each sub band comment there are basically several measures of SNR and and correlation and he said there s like twenty of these per per sub band and for for every s every sub band e you you just pick ahead of time `` I m going to have like five pause i independent logistic tests `` And you initialize these parameters in some some way and use THEM to come up with your training targets for a for the the low level detectors And then once you get that done you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it s very robust compared to to typical full band Gaussian mixtures estimations of of sonorance And so so that s just that s just one detector So you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features You get enough of these detectors together then you have enough information to do higher level discrimination for example discriminating between phones and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer So that s that s the direction which I m I m thinking about going in my quals Professor C: You know it has a number of properties that I really liked I mean one is the going towards using narrow band information for ph phonetic features of some sort rather than just immediately going for the the typical sound units Another thing I like about it is that you t this thing is going to be trained explicitly trained for a product of errors rule which is what Allen keeps pointing out that Fletcher observed in the twenties for people listening to narrow band stuff That s Friday s talk by the way And then the third thing I like about it is and we ve played around with this in a different kind of way a little bit but it has not been our dominant way of of operating anything this issue of where the targets come from So in our case when we ve been training it multi band things the way we get the targets for the individual bands is that we get the phonetic label for the sound there",The professor told the group that the current neural network had a sigmoid with a weighted sum as a low level detector. It trained using gradient descent. He suggested they delve into this further on Friday. "Grad E: Well I ve I ve talked to some of you already but I m looking into extending the work done by Larry Saul and John Allen and Mazin Rahim they they have a system that s a multi band system but their multi band is is a little different than the way that we ve been doing multi band in the past where Where we ve been comment taking pause pause sub band features and i training up these neural nets and on on phonetic targets and then combining them some somehow down the line they are they are taking sub band features and training up a detector that detects for these phonetic features for example he presents a detector to detect sonorance And so what what it basically is is it s there s at the lowest level there it s it s an OR ga I mean it s an AND gate So on each sub band you have several independent tests to test whether there s the existence of sonorance in a sub band And then it c it s combined by a soft AND gate And at the at the higher level for every if The higher level there s a soft OR gate so if if this detector detects the presence of of sonorance in any of the sub bands then the detect the OR gate at the top says `` OK well this frame has evidence of sonorance `` PhD A: What are what are some of the low level detectors that they use ? Grad E: And these are all Oh OK Well the low level detectors are logistic regressions and the Professor C: So that by the way basically is a is one of the units in our in our our neural network So that s all it is It s a sig it s a sigmoid with weighted sum at the input which you train by gradient pause descent Grad E: Right so he uses an THEM algorithm to to train up these parameters for the logistic regression Professor C: so I was using THEM to get the targets So so you have this this this AND gate what we were calling an AND gate but it s a product product rule thing at the output And then he uses i you and then feeding into that are I m sorry there s it s an OR at the output is not it ? so that s the product And then then he has each of these AND things And but so they are little neural neural units and they have to have targets And so the targets come from THEM PhD A: And so are each of these low level detectors comment are they are these something that you decide ahead of time like `` I m going to look for this particular feature or I m going to look at this frequency `` or What what what are they looking at ? What are their inputs ? Grad E: Right so the OK so at each for each sub band comment there are basically several measures of SNR and and correlation and he said there s like twenty of these per per sub band and for for every s every sub band e you you just pick ahead of time `` I m going to have like five pause i independent logistic tests `` And you initialize these parameters in some some way and use THEM to come up with your training targets for a for the the low level detectors And then once you get that done you you you train the whole whole thing on maximum likelihood and h he shows that using this this method to detect sonorance is it s very robust compared to to typical full band Gaussian mixtures estimations of of sonorance And so so that s just that s just one detector So you can imagine building many of these detectors on different features You get enough of these detectors together then you have enough information to do higher level discrimination for example discriminating between phones and then you keep working your way up until you you build a full recognizer","Grad E started the discussion on sonorance and informed the team of the model by Saul, Allen, and Rahim. The model detects phonetic features using independent tests. He explained that several detectors trained on different features were more robust than a full-band of Gaussian mixtures." "PhD A: So basically we try to find good features that could be used for voicing detection but it s still on the t PhD F: Oh well I have the picture PhD A: we w basically we are still playing with Matlab to to look at at what happened PhD C: what sorts of features are you looking at ? PhD A: So we would be looking at the pause variance of the spectrum of the excitation something like this which is should be high for voiced sounds we PhD C: Wait a minute I what does that mean ? The variance of the spectrum of excitation PhD A: So the So basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh Professor B: OK w what yo what you are calling the excitation as I recall is you are subtracting the the the mel mel mel filter spectrum from the FFT spectrum PhD A: e That s right So So we have the mel f filter bank we have the FFT so we pause just Professor B: So it s it s not really an excitation but it s something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation PhD F: We have here some histogram but they have a lot of overlap PhD A: but it s it s still So well for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around O point three and for voiced portion the mean is O point fifty nine But the variance seem quite high PhD C: How do you know ? How did you get your pause voiced and unvoiced truth data ? PhD A: We used TIMIT and we used canonical mappings between the phones PhD F: We use pause TIMIT on this But if we look at it in one sentence it apparently it s good I think PhD A: but so it s noisy TIMIT That s right It seems quite robust to noise so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence it s very close So there are there is this There could be also the something like the maximum of the auto correlation function or which PhD C: Is this a a s a trained system ? Or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? Ho how does it work ? PhD A: Right now we just are trying to find some features And Hopefully I think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of well to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help PhD C: Because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced comment that seemed pretty encouraging Professor B: Well except the variance was big PhD A: Except the variance is quite high PhD C: Well y I I do not know that I would trust that so much because you are doing these canonical mappings from TIMIT labellings Right ? So really that s sort of a cartoon picture about what s voiced and unvoiced So that could be giving you a lot of variance I mean i it it may be that that you are finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you are getting your truth Professor B: But another way of looking at it might be that I mean what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all So another way of looking at it is that the mel cepstru mel pause spectrum mel cepstrum any of these variants give you the smooth spectrum It s the spectral envelope By going back to the FFT you are getting something that is pause more like the raw data So the question is what characterization and you are playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between pause the raw data pause and this smooth version pause is something that you are missing that could help ? So I mean looking at different statistical measures of that difference coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise where you are really just i i the way I m looking at it is not so much you are trying to f find the best the world s best voiced unvoiced classifier but it s more that you know try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data and and m maybe there s something there that pause the system can use PhD A: but ther more obvious is that The the more obvious is that that well using the th the FFT you just it gives you just information about if it s voiced or not voiced ma mainly I mean But So this is why we we started to look pause by having sort of voiced phonemes Professor B: Well that s the rea w w what I m arguing is that s I mean what I m arguing is that that that s givi you gives you your intuition But in in reality it s you know there s all of this this overlap and so forth and But what I m saying is that may be OK because what you are really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then th you know structural reasons like the one that Chuck said that that in fact well the data itself is that you are working with is not perfect So what I m saying is maybe that s not a killer because you are just getting some characterization one that s driven by your intuition about voiced unvoiced certainly but it s just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data rather than the smooth version And your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of statistical characterizations of what s missing from the spectral envelope obviously you have something about the excitation and what is it about the excitation and you know and you are not getting the excitation anyway you know So so I I would almost take a especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster I would almost just take a a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and you could have one of them but and and see you know which of them helps PhD C: So i is the idea that you are going to take pause whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? Or what s the use of the the voiced unvoiced detector ? PhD A: I guess we do not know exactly yet But Th PhD C: It s not part of a VAD system that you are doing ? PhD A: No the idea was I guess to to use them as as features it could be it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification Professor B: But each one of the mixture components I mean you have variance only so it s kind of like you are just multiplying together these probabilities from the individual features pause within each mixture So it s so it seems l you know PhD C: I think it s a neat thing it seems like a good idea Professor B: I mean I know that people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the FFT and actually it was not was not was not so bad so it would s and and you know that i it s got to hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral a s a smooth spectral envelope so there must be something else that you get pause in return for that","The feature classification had means of 0.3 for voiced and 0.59 for unvoiced on voice-unvoice, though the variance was quite high. The team was using TIMIT and was in the stage of looking for features. The professor thought that the team's intuition was leading them to make statistical characterizations of what was missing from the spectral envelope. They could use things they were potentially losing in the smoothing process." "Professor B: But another way of looking at it might be that I mean what w we we are coming up with feature sets after all So another way of looking at it is that the mel cepstru mel pause spectrum mel cepstrum any of these variants give you the smooth spectrum It s the spectral envelope By going back to the FFT you are getting something that is pause more like the raw data So the question is what characterization and you are playing around with this another way of looking at it is what characterization of the difference between pause the raw data pause and this smooth version pause is something that you are missing that could help ? So I mean looking at different statistical measures of that difference coming up with some things and just trying them out and seeing if you add them onto the feature vector does that make things better or worse in noise where you are really just i i the way I m looking at it is not so much you are trying to f find the best the world s best voiced unvoiced classifier but it s more that you know try some different statistical characterizations of that difference back to the raw data and and m maybe there s something there that pause the system can use PhD A: but ther more obvious is that The the more obvious is that that well using the th the FFT you just it gives you just information about if it s voiced or not voiced ma mainly I mean But So this is why we we started to look pause by having sort of voiced phonemes Professor B: Well that s the rea w w what I m arguing is that s I mean what I m arguing is that that that s givi you gives you your intuition But in in reality it s you know there s all of this this overlap and so forth and But what I m saying is that may be OK because what you are really getting is not actually voiced versus unvoiced both for the fac the reason of the overlap and and then th you know structural reasons like the one that Chuck said that that in fact well the data itself is that you are working with is not perfect So what I m saying is maybe that s not a killer because you are just getting some characterization one that s driven by your intuition about voiced unvoiced certainly but it s just some characterization of something back in the in the in the almost raw data rather than the smooth version And your intuition is driving you towards particular kinds of statistical characterizations of what s missing from the spectral envelope obviously you have something about the excitation and what is it about the excitation and you know and you are not getting the excitation anyway you know So so I I would almost take a especially if if these trainings and so forth are faster I would almost just take a a scattershot at a few different ways of look of characterizing that difference and you could have one of them but and and see you know which of them helps PhD C: So i is the idea that you are going to take pause whatever features you develop and and just add them onto the future vector ? Or what s the use of the the voiced unvoiced detector ? PhD A: I guess we do not know exactly yet But Th PhD C: It s not part of a VAD system that you are doing ? PhD A: No the idea was I guess to to use them as as features it could be it could be a neural network that does voiced and unvoiced detection but it could be in the also the big neural network that does phoneme classification Professor B: But each one of the mixture components I mean you have variance only so it s kind of like you are just multiplying together these probabilities from the individual features pause within each mixture So it s so it seems l you know PhD C: I think it s a neat thing it seems like a good idea Professor B: I mean I know that people doing some robustness things a ways back were were just doing just being gross and just throwing in the FFT and actually it was not was not was not so bad so it would s and and you know that i it s got to hurt you a little bit to not have a a spectral a s a smooth spectral envelope so there must be something else that you get pause in return for that","The professor thought that the team should go back and look at the difference between the smooth and the raw versions. He thought the team was too stuck on intuitions based on only the smooth version. He agreed that not having a smooth version could hurt the model a bit, but the team could potentially learn something that helps the model more." "PhD A: So we would be looking at the pause variance of the spectrum of the excitation something like this which is should be high for voiced sounds we PhD C: Wait a minute I what does that mean ? The variance of the spectrum of excitation PhD A: So the So basically the spectrum of the excitation for a purely periodic sig signal shou sh Professor B: OK w what yo what you are calling the excitation as I recall is you are subtracting the the the mel mel mel filter spectrum from the FFT spectrum PhD A: e That s right So So we have the mel f filter bank we have the FFT so we pause just Professor B: So it s it s not really an excitation but it s something that hopefully tells you something about the excitation PhD F: We have here some histogram but they have a lot of overlap PhD A: but it s it s still So well for unvoiced portion we have something tha that has a mean around O point three and for voiced portion the mean is O point fifty nine But the variance seem quite high PhD C: How do you know ? How did you get your pause voiced and unvoiced truth data ? PhD A: We used TIMIT and we used canonical mappings between the phones PhD F: We use pause TIMIT on this But if we look at it in one sentence it apparently it s good I think PhD A: but so it s noisy TIMIT That s right It seems quite robust to noise so when we take we draw its parameters across time for a clean sentence and then nois the same noisy sentence it s very close So there are there is this There could be also the something like the maximum of the auto correlation function or which PhD C: Is this a a s a trained system ? Or is it a system where you just pick some thresholds ? Ho how does it work ? PhD A: Right now we just are trying to find some features And Hopefully I think what we want to have is to put these features in s some kind of well to to obtain a statistical model on these features and to or just to use a neural network and hopefully these features w would help PhD C: Because it seems like what you said about the mean of the the voiced and the unvoiced comment that seemed pretty encouraging Professor B: Well except the variance was big PhD A: Except the variance is quite high PhD C: Well y I I do not know that I would trust that so much because you are doing these canonical mappings from TIMIT labellings Right ? So really that s sort of a cartoon picture about what s voiced and unvoiced So that could be giving you a lot of variance I mean i it it may be that that you are finding something good and that the variance is sort of artificial because of how you are getting your truth","PhD A informed the team that the team was looking at the difference between the mel filter and FFT spectrum, which he called the variance. The variance for voice-unvoice was high. PhD C thought that the variance was kind of artificial because it was being done using canonical mappings from TIMIT labelings." "PhD A: But I guess perhaps I do not know w Per e s s someone told that perhaps it s not fair to do that because the to make a good VAD pause you do not have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features So mmm you need more features So you really need to put more more in the in in the front end PhD C: Wait a minute I I m confused Wha what do you mean ? Professor B: So y so you m s but Well let s say for ins see MFCC for instance does not have anything in it related to the pitch So just just for example So suppose you ve that what you really want to do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous if it gets an unambiguous result then you are definitely in a in a in a voice in a s region with speech PhD C: So there s this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the MFCC ? PhD A: That s not clear but this e Professor B: So so if you use other features then y But it s just a question of what is your baseline Right ? What is it that you are supposed to do better than ? And so having the baseline be the MFCC s pause means that people could pause choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good VAD PhD C: I do not s But they seem like two pause separate issues Professor B: or tryi They are sort of separate Unfortunately there s coupling between them which is part of what I think Stephane is getting to is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the VAD And you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition They may not be the same thing PhD C: But it seems like you should do both Professor B: and and I I think that this still makes I still think this makes sense as a baseline It s just saying as a baseline we know you know we had the MFCC s before lots of people have done voice activity detectors you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline just like you picked some version of HTK and made that the baseline And then pause let s try and make everything better and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features pause be better features for the VAD then that s so be it But at least you have a starting point that s cuz i i some of the some of the people did not have a VAD at all I guess Right ? And and then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was not so bad at all PhD C: It seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible And if it turns out that pause you can not improve on that well I mean then you know nobody wins and you just use MFCC Right ? Professor B: I mean it seems like it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve and MFCC s you know or PLP or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features and anybody doing this task is going to have some sort of voice activity detection at some level in some way They might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing but but they will have it on some level So PhD C: It seems like whatever they choose they should not you know purposefully brain damage a part of the system to pause make a worse baseline or Professor B: Well I think people just had it was not that they purposely brain damaged it I think people had not really thought through about the the VAD issue And and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had V A Ds and half of them did not and the half that did did well and the half that did not did poorly PhD A: So we will see what happen with this And So what happened since last week is well from OGI these experiments on pause putting VAD on the baseline And these experiments also are using some kind of noise compensation so spectral subtraction and putting on line normalization just after this So I think spectral subtraction LDA filtering and on line normalization so which is similar to the pro proposal one but with pause spectral subtraction in addition and it seems that on line normalization does not help further when you have spectral subtraction PhD C: Is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones PhD A: I have no idea because the issue I brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach and the one that they use at OGI is one from from the proposed the the the Aurora prop proposals which might be much better So I asked Sunil for more information about that but I do not know yet And what s happened here is that we so we have this kind of new reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling upsampling which use a new filter that s much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty four hertz which was not done on our first proposal Professor B: When you say `` we have that `` does Sunil have it now too PhD A: Because we are still testing So we have the result for just the features and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the KLT it seems to improve on the well matched case but it s a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly mismatched I mean when we put the neural network And with the current weighting I think it s sh it will be better because the well matched case is better Mmm Professor B: But how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions when you say it s a little worse ? PhD A: It s like fff fff comment pause comment pause ten percent relative Professor B: But it has the the latencies are much shorter That s PhD A: y w when I say it s worse it s not it s when I I compare proposal two to proposal one so r y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network I mean this new system is is is better because it has this sixty four hertz cut off clean downsampling and what else ? a good VAD We put the good VAD So I do not know I I j pr Professor B: But the latencies but you ve got the latency shorter now So it s better than the system that we had before PhD A: Mainly because pause of pause the sixty four hertz and the good VAD","The team thought that it was not fair to get a good VAD since there weren't enough baseline features. An MFCC would have been more appropriate, but optimizing for one meant lower scores on the other. In general, the model was better now due to lower latencies." "Professor B: But it has the the latencies are much shorter That s PhD A: y w when I say it s worse it s not it s when I I compare proposal two to proposal one so r y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network I mean this new system is is is better because it has this sixty four hertz cut off clean downsampling and what else ? a good VAD We put the good VAD So I do not know I I j pr Professor B: But the latencies but you ve got the latency shorter now So it s better than the system that we had before PhD A: Mainly because pause of pause the sixty four hertz and the good VAD","The professor thought that the model was better now since it had lower latencies. So, he thought that the good VAD was worth the trouble." "PhD A: But I guess perhaps I do not know w Per e s s someone told that perhaps it s not fair to do that because the to make a good VAD pause you do not have enough to with the the features that are the baseline features So mmm you need more features So you really need to put more more in the in in the front end PhD C: Wait a minute I I m confused Wha what do you mean ? Professor B: So y so you m s but Well let s say for ins see MFCC for instance does not have anything in it related to the pitch So just just for example So suppose you ve that what you really want to do is put a good pitch detector on there and if it gets an unambiguous if it gets an unambiguous result then you are definitely in a in a in a voice in a s region with speech PhD C: So there s this assumption that the v the voice activity detector can only use the MFCC ? PhD A: That s not clear but this e Professor B: So so if you use other features then y But it s just a question of what is your baseline Right ? What is it that you are supposed to do better than ? And so having the baseline be the MFCC s pause means that people could pause choose to pour their ener their effort into trying to do a really good VAD PhD C: I do not s But they seem like two pause separate issues Professor B: or tryi They are sort of separate Unfortunately there s coupling between them which is part of what I think Stephane is getting to is that you can choose your features in such a way as to improve the VAD And you also can choose your features in such a way as to prove improve recognition They may not be the same thing PhD C: But it seems like you should do both Professor B: and and I I think that this still makes I still think this makes sense as a baseline It s just saying as a baseline we know you know we had the MFCC s before lots of people have done voice activity detectors you might as well pick some voice activity detector and make that the baseline just like you picked some version of HTK and made that the baseline And then pause let s try and make everything better and if one of the ways you make it better is by having your features pause be better features for the VAD then that s so be it But at least you have a starting point that s cuz i i some of the some of the people did not have a VAD at all I guess Right ? And and then they they looked pretty bad and and in fact what they were doing was not so bad at all PhD C: It seems like you should try to make your baseline as good as possible And if it turns out that pause you can not improve on that well I mean then you know nobody wins and you just use MFCC Right ? Professor B: I mean it seems like it should include sort of the current state of the art that you want are trying to improve and MFCC s you know or PLP or something it seems like reasonable baseline for the features and anybody doing this task is going to have some sort of voice activity detection at some level in some way They might use the whole recognizer to do it but rather than a separate thing but but they will have it on some level So PhD C: It seems like whatever they choose they should not you know purposefully brain damage a part of the system to pause make a worse baseline or Professor B: Well I think people just had it was not that they purposely brain damaged it I think people had not really thought through about the the VAD issue And and then when the the the proposals actually came in and half of them had V A Ds and half of them did not and the half that did did well and the half that did not did poorly PhD A: So we will see what happen with this And So what happened since last week is well from OGI these experiments on pause putting VAD on the baseline And these experiments also are using some kind of noise compensation so spectral subtraction and putting on line normalization just after this So I think spectral subtraction LDA filtering and on line normalization so which is similar to the pro proposal one but with pause spectral subtraction in addition and it seems that on line normalization does not help further when you have spectral subtraction PhD C: Is this related to the issue that you brought up a couple of meetings ago with the the musical tones PhD A: I have no idea because the issue I brought up was with a very simple spectral subtraction approach and the one that they use at OGI is one from from the proposed the the the Aurora prop proposals which might be much better So I asked Sunil for more information about that but I do not know yet And what s happened here is that we so we have this kind of new reference system which use a nice a a clean downsampling upsampling which use a new filter that s much shorter and which also cuts the frequency below sixty four hertz which was not done on our first proposal Professor B: When you say `` we have that `` does Sunil have it now too PhD A: Because we are still testing So we have the result for just the features and we are currently testing with putting the neural network in the KLT it seems to improve on the well matched case but it s a little bit worse on the mismatch and highly mismatched I mean when we put the neural network And with the current weighting I think it s sh it will be better because the well matched case is better Mmm Professor B: But how much worse since the weighting might change how how much worse is it on the other conditions when you say it s a little worse ? PhD A: It s like fff fff comment pause comment pause ten percent relative Professor B: But it has the the latencies are much shorter That s PhD A: y w when I say it s worse it s not it s when I I compare proposal two to proposal one so r y putting neural network compared to n not having any neural network I mean this new system is is is better because it has this sixty four hertz cut off clean downsampling and what else ? a good VAD We put the good VAD So I do not know I I j pr Professor B: But the latencies but you ve got the latency shorter now So it s better than the system that we had before PhD A: Mainly because pause of pause the sixty four hertz and the good VAD And then I took this system and mmm w I p we put the old filters also So we have this good system with good VAD with the short filter and with the long filter and with the short filter it s not worse So well is it Professor B: So that s that s all fine But what you are saying is that when you do these So let me try to understand When when you do these same improvements to proposal one that on the i things are somewhat better in proposal two for the well matched case and somewhat worse for the other two cases So does when you say So The th now that these other things are in there is it the case maybe that the additions of proposal two over proposal one are pause less i am important ? PhD A: So but it s a good thing anyway to have shorter delay Then we tried to do something like proposal two but having e using also MESSAGE features So there is this KLT part which use just the standard features","PhD A thought that a good VAD could not be made without baseline features. On-line normalization was not helping the model when spectral subtraction was already in play. The short filters were performing as well as the long ones, and the model was doing well on the well-matched case. Despite mixed results, the shorter latency was a positive sign." "Project Manager: I live I live right across the street from an open space in California We have coyotes howl all the time So I really enjoy their their singing you they are really beautiful animals Mm moving on to slightly more serious stuff We are going to talk about project finances we have a couple we would like to sell it for about twenty five Euro with the profit aim of fifteen million Euro from our sales and because this is such this is for television it is a we have a market range of Internet like it is an international market range we do not have to worry about specifics in order to make a profit of this magnitude we need to be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty Euro So we are selling it for twice what we would like to produce it for just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project I could I would like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls your first ideas about creating a new r remote control what would be the best like you what are the features that you really like what are the features that you do not like etcetera so Marketing: I hate when there is like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the TV like you have to do one for the power of the TV and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going I do not know Now they keep combining all different remotes together and I do not know if I necessarily like that because I feel like you end up with multimedia overload I just want to watch the TV Always gets lost Some sort of like device to help you find it User Interface: I have used I have used remote controls for things like TV and the CD player and video recorder and I I guess they are they are pretty neat neat little tools You do not have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel So especially if you are someone really lazy like me they they are pretty nice I find them they can be a bit annoying especially like you know if I am watching TV I have have to have three separate remote controls of in front of me you know one for the TV one for the digital box one for m the video recorder as well And also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing they have got too many buttons on them too too sort of too sort of complicated when all I really want to do is switch on and off change the channel change the volume Industrial Designer: I agree with having too many remotes around My dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things and I do not know how to work half of them What is important for me I guess is that it is easy to use and that there is not too many buttons they are not too small you know you know you need to n to know what you are doing And one thing I particularly like is if you are not sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infrared","Marketing was tired of too many buttons with different functions separately, but yet he doubted whether combining all different remotes together was necessary because he felt it ended up with multimedia overload. User Interface thought remote controls were pretty nice but could be a bit annoying because users didn't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel. However, three separate remote controls with too many buttons for TV could be confusing and complicated. Industrial Designer agreed with having too many remotes around." Industrial Designer: I agree with having too many remotes around My dad has a whole drawer at home of remotes for various things and I do not know how to work half of them What is important for me I guess is that it is easy to use and that there is not too many buttons they are not too small you know you know you need to n to know what you are doing And one thing I particularly like is if you are not sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infrared I think there is a way around that but I know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on so i it is just simpler just to just turn around the TV itself and I think that is if we are going to make a remote control it should actually work for what it is doing So,"Industrial Designer proposed that it's important to use the remote control with ease. Buttons, in the proper size, shouldn't be too many to confuse. He thought users were supposed to know what they were doing. And he was particularly interested in not moving the control around to get it to work with the infra-red. Industrial Designer also proposed that the remote control to be designed should work for what it's doing." "Project Manager: it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over to combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes So like you said you do not like having all the buttons on one on one remote and yet you do not want to have five remotes So how do we work with that ? Industrial Designer: Could we get something that just has No does not have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that I am not very coherent about but that just has your major buttons for that work for everything you know volume control on off Marketing: And maybe that spatially divides it so it is like if you are looki if you are trying to get the TV on that is you know like the top thing on the remote I do not know if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we are going to make it but if it is like all the TV stuff was here then all the VCR stuff was here all the whatever else we have programmed into it it is all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttons together because then you like I do not even know what I am turning on Industrial Designer: and if if you would save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you would not need to use every day Project Manager: so maybe have like one remote that has the main functions on off channel changing volume and another rote remote with all the special things","Have one remote that has the main functions such as turning on, turning off, channel changing, volume; and another remote with all the special things." "User Interface: Can I ask are we designing a remote control for a television only and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? Project Manager: I do not know that yet User Interface: or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? Project Manager: It is a good question I will look into that Marketing: I think it is just TV I mean if it if we are taking it just new product a new television remote control that is not like does not say You know things might be more advanced than that User Interface: So we should maybe we should assume that i t it is just a television that we are wanting to control Well I mean I suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I do not know if that works technologically or not Industrial Designer: Yes I guess we have to define what what we are aiming for If it is just a television then that it is a bit simpler because there is less buttons that would even need to be on it Marketing: It is an idea with the buttons being really Industrial Designer: Large If you have older people or people like me that are not very coordinated handeye it is really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons if we can help it","Marketing thought they should design a remote control for television only due to the issue of advancement. User Interface supposed that it would be nice to have playing and recording and stop buttons on remote controls for the video recorder as well, but he didn't know if that worked technologically. Industrial Designer agreed to define the object of remote control, and he proposed that it would be simpler if it's just for television because there were fewer buttons, which would benefit older people or people that weren't very co-ordinated hand-eye." "User Interface: Can I ask are we designing a remote control for a television only and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? Project Manager: I do not know that yet User Interface: or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? Project Manager: It is a good question I will look into that Marketing: I think it is just TV I mean if it if we are taking it just new product a new television remote control that is not like does not say You know things might be more advanced than that User Interface: So we should maybe we should assume that i t it is just a television that we are wanting to control Well I mean I suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I do not know if that works technologically or not Industrial Designer: Yes I guess we have to define what what we are aiming for If it is just a television then that it is a bit simpler because there is less buttons that would even need to be on it Marketing: It is an idea with the buttons being really Industrial Designer: Large If you have older people or people like me that are not very coordinated handeye it is really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons if we can help it","It would be simpler if it's just for television because there were fewer buttons, which would benefit older people or people that weren't very co-ordinated hand-eye." "User Interface: Can I ask are we designing a remote control for a television only and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ? Project Manager: I do not know that yet User Interface: or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ? Project Manager: It is a good question I will look into that Marketing: I think it is just TV I mean if it if we are taking it just new product a new television remote control that is not like does not say You know things might be more advanced than that User Interface: So we should maybe we should assume that i t it is just a television that we are wanting to control Well I mean I suppose it would be nice to have playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I do not know if that works technologically or not Industrial Designer: Yes I guess we have to define what what we are aiming for If it is just a television then that it is a bit simpler because there is less buttons that would even need to be on it Marketing: It is an idea with the buttons being really Industrial Designer: Large If you have older people or people like me that are not very coordinated handeye it is really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone size buttons if we can help it","User Interface supposed that it would be nice to have playing and recording and stop buttons on remote controls for the video recorder as well, but he didn't know if that worked technologically." "Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of detail design of the product of the remote control So here is the agenda for today just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two sounds interesting And we will have presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts Then we will have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and hopefully we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five Euro So let us go if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting So we went through th w we took this following decisions No LCD no speech recognition technology we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control We went through the use of wheels and but buttons And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and also to call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost Good So guys let this wonderful thing Industrial Designer: so we can go to the slides Number three Oh number two sorry So final design Final design so Michael you can go ahead User Interface: so following our decision to make a yellow well to make a banana Project Manager: can you show it to the the camera maybe User Interface: remote so we actually have a Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first maybe User Interface: We have well first first of all we made a an attractive base station with a banana leaf look and feel and bana sit the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it is not going to tip over and this is the remote itself it is kind of it is it is ergonomic it fits in the hand rather well We have got the two scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the volume and the one on the right for for the channel and underneath we have the the turbo button which is in like a nice trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally Project Manager: What is the use of the t turbo button already ? User Interface: This is when you when you are scrolling the through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you quickly rather th Project Manager: Ah an then you stop when you stop it stops User Interface: Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops But normally with it will just s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture Industrial Designer: And we we do have one more functionality If you take the banana as such and you press the turbo button so it switch ons the switch ons the TV User Interface: The s the turbo button So rather than having an extra button for for the on off switch you just use the turbo button Marketing: What this button for ? User Interface: This is a teletext button So once you press that then you get teletext and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred ? Industrial Designer: That is right that is right Project Manager: with the wheel it is easy User Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little number selection thing you press the the the teletext button to move between the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can Marketing: I do not understand it Can you repeat it ? User Interface: Well you can you can press press the teletext button and then you then you can you can f Industrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext they are no more for channel or vol volume User Interface: And this is the the infrared port Also the top of the banana So And then we have in the in the base station we have the the button at the front for for calling the the banana Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ? User Interface: That is that is that is that is form and function in the one in the one object Industrial Designer: So it always means whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage User Interface: But that is that is just like that is an attractive base station Industrial Designer: And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries Marketing: Is it really weight ? Is it light or User Interface: It is it is it is about the weight of a banana You know to give you the correct look and feel Industrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people do not mistake them mistake it as a banana Otherwise it is you know a child comes and so Marketing: I see I under I understand User Interface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway so maybe we should consider that maybe health and safety aspects Industrial Designer: Oh we did not think of that yet Project Manager: So for the power source apparently you still you you want to use both solar cells and batteries User Interface: I do not really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station Project Manager: where are going to where are you are you going to place them ? Industrial Designer: Mmhmm mmhmm It will It will be always at top somewhere at there User Interface: If I was going to place them I would put them on the on the top here since that is like the black bit Project Manager: You have enough surface ? You User Interface: but I do not I really do not think it is necessary to have the solar cells anymore Industrial Designer: because now we are having rechargeable batteries Project Manager: What will be the autonomy ? Roughly ? User Interface: What do you mean ? Project Manager: I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ? Marketing: How long the how long the bit the batteries long User Interface: Ah Ah A long time Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours User Interface: it can it should be weeks Industrial Designer: N most no most of the time it is not being used User Interface: but y people do not like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave want to leave it on the couch so Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on Project Manager: It is used only when you Industrial Designer: Mm Mmhmm No eight or eight or ten hours of working If you are just leaving like that it will be much longer And we are having the speakers regular chip for control Pricing is was a factor so that is why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip And that is it Project Manager: Those really sounds very good Nothing else to add ? User Interface: It seems to be falling over Marketing: I like I like it Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the the multifunctional buttons Looks a bit Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons ? Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled I do not know how to say that You the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it is teletext or not Industrial Designer: Not not many we we want to keep it simple So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that the channel buttons they baco become the scrolling buttons Marketing: And the volume button will will become Industrial Designer: It is up to you means Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be could be useful navigating through teletext Industrial Designer: Now that Means let us say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits ? Butto real buttons ? Industrial Designer: So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing they they do not care about the buttons any more And anyway Marketing: Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of stuff ? W we are living in a wonderful world","User Interface and Industrial Designer firstly presented on the prototype features which agreed to have a banana shape with a size that fitted to the hand. Also, they showed the prototype with a leaf base station with a calling button to locate the remote control. As agreed by the group, the prototype would have two scroll wheels to control the volume and the channel, the turbo button that also could be used to turn on the TV, the teletext button to faster switch the channel. Also, the group decided to give up on the solar cells and to use rechargeable batteries for the power source. Concerning the product cost, the group decided to use a regular chip for the speaker." "Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations So your slides are ready ? you are four I think So this is one which one is this one ? Marketing: I I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements And each criteria is will be evaluated it is logical criteria so we must users must say i if it is true or is or if it is false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven ? Marketing: Because i I am sorry Sorry Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten Marketing: Ah It is from sorry it is from one to seven It is from from one to seven sorry Because it should be an even it should be an even scale and five is too short and nine is too long I am a I I am Project Manager: So to have in order to have enough granularity it is in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation Marketing: The variance is mi it is is minimal I am answering your question And that is the criteria I I found more useful I think I sh I I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ? And we all four could range Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy handy Handy Marketing: let us let us evaluate if it is fancy or Industrial Designer: it is fancy according to me So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus Project Manager: What do you say seven ? Five ? User Interface: Five maybe maybe maybe six it is it is I guess it is Industrial Designer: Again I will give seven User Interface: I would give it a six like I would I think it is probably more handy than my current remote because of the scroll wheels but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote Well it depends when you say functional do you mean it does what we want it to do or d does what it does you know can it make you coffee ? Project Manager: for a remote control does he have all the Marketing: It is compared to the all Industrial Designer: That is right The standards What is available in the market off the shelf User Interface: I have to say four Marketing: Actually I do not know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro User Interface: Well it is not a universal remote Remember we are focus we are supposed to focus just on TVs Marketing: Ah it is not an univer but it is for all kind of TVs ? User Interface: Well all TVs but only T only TVs I guess Project Manager: So it is universal but for TVs So s four ? Industrial Designer: So four point two ? User Interface: Obviously there are some outliers so Industrial Designer: There I will give it seven Marketing: It means cool features like new features actually Industrial Designer: For a TV the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature And then the scroll buttons are again cool features We do not have LCD for it but that we decided we do not want to have Project Manager: Plus six I say I said seven User Interface: Because it is five five seven seven so Project Manager: Seven Seven And you ? Outl you are not lik outlier User Interface: Alright now here is the sixty million Dollar question well twenty five twenty five Euro question Project Manager: Of course I will buy the banana User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon ? Marketing: Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end I find it quite cheap actually I do not know If i i it depends if you live in in Switzerland or you live in Project Manager: so the target price is for all Europe or only for rich countries ? It is more targeting UK or Marketing: I do not know Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or Project Manager: So this is selling costs not production costs Marketing: this is the the initial specifications I would say six It is quite cheap actually Project Manager: Aw should be nice in your User Interface: I do not want a banana on my living room table a banana remote Industrial Designer: No but it is really handy actually if you see User Interface: It is handy it is handy but it it is terrible Industrial Designer: It is it is so handy And then Anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he will at least ask once what is this User Interface: but it is not a positive thing Industrial Designer: It is a very positive thing if you see like that User Interface: Well you know it is it is handy it is ergonomic but it is a banana Project Manager: Well do not forget well do not for do not forget who we are targeting also who are f f who are wh User Interface: but it says I I would buy this so Project Manager: No well I if you would be young Not telling that you are young Li li like a teenager for instance User Interface: No it is I I would buy Project Manager: you are you are crazy teenager and you like fun things Industrial Designer: You with your girlfriend or something Project Manager: you want to show the beautiful banana you have Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but User Interface: Still I I would say two I do not think I at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control really Project Manager: so you s you give User Interface: I can say maybe there is a market for it I do not know Project Manager: oh I know I know F I d I say five You say ? So what is the new question ? Industrial Designer: And you have saved it ? You will have to reload Marketing: it is two different situations If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one Project Manager: that is two different question User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro if that was like my limit maybe I would buy it Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably going to look Industrial Designer: They are not going to be as And they they might not be a as easy as this User Interface: And it this is going to f you know handy to use Marketing: So ? What now ? What range ? User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning Industrial Designer: I go slightly up Six User Interface: so I do not know Project Manager: W we have six five User Interface: I would give it I would give it a I give it a four now Project Manager: So we are six five four Marketing: Six so it is five point five or less Project Manager: So and last question will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana zero No we can not No let us say I will put two User Interface: I would say three I mean my remote control is kind of at home is pretty terrible If it was change my remote control of my DVD player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to Project Manager: It is for the TV User Interface: but because it is really bad but I would say a three Industrial Designer: I will still give it five Project Manager: Two three five two three fi and two Industrial Designer: So it is somewhere three point five I think Project Manager: So it is r three point five Marketing: Who is the outlier ? Wh wh you said five ? Project Manager: No no you say five he is the outlier just just do a sum Marketing: I do not know if it is a User Interface: It is not very promising but you know we are not young trendsetters Marketing: No because there are more we should not sum like that Project Manager: Well maybe we should we should have a look globally glob Marketing: Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually Otherwise we would not we will not sell User Interface: Is there some some formula you are using that says you have to sum them up ? Marketing: no I did not anything User Interface: Well just leave it at that then Project Manager: So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling We can had have a out of these numbers which which is that well we should go for it Marketing: Do you want me to sum Industrial Designer: it is it is funny Marketing: o I think it is not User Interface: I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it so Project Manager: So let us move let us move on","Marketing constructed a list of evaluation criteria based on the general user requirement. The group had an evaluation on the prototype, and they agreed it was a fancy, handy, and cool device that was easy to use. While User Interface disagreed with the criteria on whether people would change their remote control for a new one because he thought the banana didn't have a positive impression and it might have a market for young people." "User Interface: Alright now here is the sixty million Dollar question well twenty five twenty five Euro question Project Manager: Of course I will buy the banana User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon ? Marketing: Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end I find it quite cheap actually I do not know If i i it depends if you live in in Switzerland or you live in Project Manager: so the target price is for all Europe or only for rich countries ? It is more targeting UK or Marketing: I do not know Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or Project Manager: So this is selling costs not production costs Marketing: this is the the initial specifications I would say six It is quite cheap actually Project Manager: Aw should be nice in your User Interface: I do not want a banana on my living room table a banana remote Industrial Designer: No but it is really handy actually if you see User Interface: It is handy it is handy but it it is terrible Industrial Designer: It is it is so handy And then Anyb anybody who comes here anybody who comes to your home he will at least ask once what is this User Interface: but it is not a positive thing Industrial Designer: It is a very positive thing if you see like that User Interface: Well you know it is it is handy it is ergonomic but it is a banana Project Manager: Well do not forget well do not for do not forget who we are targeting also who are f f who are wh User Interface: but it says I I would buy this so Project Manager: No well I if you would be young Not telling that you are young Li li like a teenager for instance User Interface: No it is I I would buy Project Manager: you are you are crazy teenager and you like fun things Industrial Designer: You with your girlfriend or something Project Manager: you want to show the beautiful banana you have Industrial Designer: Or might be it does some other kind of thing but User Interface: Still I I would say two I do not think I at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control really Project Manager: so you s you give User Interface: I can say maybe there is a market for it I do not know Project Manager: oh I know I know F I d I say five You say ? So what is the new question ? Industrial Designer: And you have saved it ? You will have to reload Marketing: it is two different situations If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one Project Manager: that is two different question User Interface: If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro if that was like my limit maybe I would buy it Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably going to look Industrial Designer: They are not going to be as And they they might not be a as easy as this User Interface: And it this is going to f you know handy to use Marketing: So ? What now ? What range ? User Interface: Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning Industrial Designer: I go slightly up Six User Interface: so I do not know Project Manager: W we have six five User Interface: I would give it I would give it a I give it a four now","When discussing the criteria on whether people would change their remote control, User Interface gave a two out of seven on it because of the negative impression the banana brought. In fact, User Interface didn't want a banana on the living room table though the product was handy, unless other twenty-five-Euro remote controls looked ugly. While, User Interface thought it still had the word of its feature at the beginning, so User Interface changed to give four on this criteria question." "Project Manager: now now we have to mm to estimate the cost So I prepare an Excel sh an Excel sheet well we are going to calculate the production costs We should we should be below twelve point five So I already put some pu some numbers here We are going to go through so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing So it appears that there were things that we did not thought about and also things that I I d I forget to to put like solar cells User Interface: Well we decided against the solar cells so Project Manager: Oh finally we say no Industrial Designer: Solar cells we said no to that Project Manager: so let us let us go let us go let go through all the lines So hand dynamo This something we did not thought about But User Interface: You mean charging it by shaking the banana Industrial Designer: I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing Project Manager: so we we stick to battery one No kinetic also I do not I do not see the difference between kinetic and dynamo User Interface: Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually Project Manager: Ah you have to ah I see so kinetic is really shaking the banana Crazy So those banana is falling Let us go ahead So we we st only have one for battery then for electronics so I did not put anything for the Industrial Designer: So we have the regular chip on the print which is one And we have sample speaker the cost of that is very high Project Manager: Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing So we are User Interface: Well actually that that no that sample speaker is not we we are not using that we are just using the the very beep simple beep that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything Project Manager: so I will remove it So do not we need a Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing Industrial Designer: So we we will put some extras if there is something Project Manager: maybe We will see later so in for the case I put single curved Industrial Designer: To reduce the cost it is Project Manager: Because we have two things User Interface: no it is it is double curved it is got a c it is Industrial Designer: Oh it is got all the directions User Interface: Well d it is monotonic but Industrial Designer: It is got a direction User Interface: it is got but if you hold it if you hold it that way that is two curved one on this side one on that side but they are opposite sides Project Manager: Well What a what i if I put one here User Interface: This is actually I mean this probably Marketing: Actually what is the differen User Interface: this probably actually costs more than three Project Manager: so let us put one here in the then instead of single So we stick to plastic it cost nothing User Interface: Well no did not we say we wanted to do a rubber Project Manager: No it is too no User Interface: if you drop it ? Project Manager: It is too expensive We are already at eleven User Interface: Well when Well we we will come back we will come back and see if we can fit it in Project Manager: so I put rubber one so special colour yellow for the interface we have Industrial Designer: We do not have any push buttons User Interface: No we have two push buttons Industrial Designer: No that is a scroll wheel itself it will be put in that Project Manager: No no We have two scroll and we have three push buttons User Interface: it is going to have to be plastic Marketing: Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two because there is another chip here Project Manager: No it is no chip This is just radio frequency Th This is no chip Industrial Designer: No There is no chip there It just emits the signal And the receiver accepts it and that is it Marketing: Fo i it does nothing actually ? Industrial Designer: Just se sends the signal that is it User Interface: It is a recharger thing and Project Manager: w we did not think a thought about integrated scroll wheel push buttons User Interface: Well I actually did think about it myself but I thought you know because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a instead of a turbo button but you know the turbo button does add that extra class You know So I mean if we are if we are over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that Project Manager: So no LCD so for we have no button supplements right ? well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because oh no these are these are for colours co and special forms special colours and special materials User Interface: we do not need anything special for the buttons Project Manager: so we are over budget Industrial Designer: So first thing which we should take care of is User Interface: Make it plastic instead of rubber Industrial Designer: instead of rubber let it be plastic User Interface: And then we are basically o on budget except for you know ten cents Industrial Designer: And that much money will be required for the base station which is not there Project Manager: So mayb in fact n we have to put two here User Interface: well pl the base station is made out of m many units of plastic Industrial Designer: So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which the cord and everything whichll go Project Manager: Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff User Interface: Does that include charging circuitry and everything ? So what do we do with the extra profits ? Project Manager: we will invest in R and D So well we are under the the the cost So we can go to through to project evaluation Marketing: so now we have a product which nobody would would buy Would would buy User Interface: No we have a product which none of us would buy Marketing: because th th the evaluation project Project Manager: Which is different Which is different None of us will buy it User Interface: No it is people in in in Milan and in Paris that are going to buy it We are not in Milan or Paris Marketing: you have been in Milan a couple of times so User Interface: Actually there were a lot of Marketing: And you said the lowest Project Manager: This is what we which you can mm User Interface: That is because I am sick of Milan","The group had a production cost of 12.5 Euros. They agreed to not add solar cells for power source nor a sample speaker instead of a simple beep. They would have one battery, two regular chips on the print, double curves which stuck to the plastic, two scroll wheels, and three push buttons. The group would not use LCD and they would have a base station that was made out of units of plastic to balance the cost." "Project Manager: Exac Well in fact I I did not know I did not know really what to say here If if you have any ideas of what we can we can say So I do not I do not I do not understand what what they mean by satisfaction and for and for example Should it be more like like a status of of the these meetings in fact well in fact we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen not that much User Interface: I do not know I think we had a fair bit of creativity Project Manager: Oh it is really creative User Interface: And but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a like a focus group with the actual people we are targeting We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they see if they like it Project Manager: maybe we should go through an evaluation User Interface: Because the evaluation for us is is kind of pointless Project Manager: So maybe you should we should do a kind of evaluation in the streets like asking to young peoples well do you like to have a banana as a remote control User Interface: Because it it would also be interesting to you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well to see you know how to how to market this thing Because you know if well I mean maybe you do not want to give all your kids their own remote because they will be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a TV for each kid then you know banana remote control could be fun for them as well Might have to draw a face on it So but I think that is something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market Project Manager: Yep Any any new ideas we could we could investigate next time ? Do Not Know oranges ? Industrial Designer: The cost of the thing can be made more than might be Because I think it is just the optimal what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to User Interface: I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the Well just the the the circuit board that we are using inside I am not sure really how complicated our our needs are I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers do we really need an integrated circuit to you know to process that Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on on TV The complexity should not be much higher For you said if it good for DVD then I would User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff that would be rather cool I think that is actually something that should be in version two is the ability to you know to control things other than the TV and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room Project Manager: Well done I think we we can go Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate","Project Manager agreed that the group had used fairly on the whiteboard and digital pen during the meeting. They all agreed on much creativity satisfaction during the discussion. User Interface supplemented that they should focus on broader target markets within the European countries. Also, Project Manager suggested that they should use the same evaluation criteria to do a street survey with young people. The group agreed to improve in an integrated circuit board to control things other than TV." "Project Manager: Yep Any any new ideas we could we could investigate next time ? Do Not Know oranges ? Industrial Designer: The cost of the thing can be made more than might be Because I think it is just the optimal what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to User Interface: I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the Well just the the the circuit board that we are using inside I am not sure really how complicated our our needs are I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers do we really need an integrated circuit to you know to process that Marketing: So more general remote control instead of just focusing on on TV The complexity should not be much higher For you said if it good for DVD then I would User Interface: And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff that would be rather cool I think that is actually something that should be in version two is the ability to you know to control things other than the TV and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room","User Interface suggested two new ideas. Firstly, to simplify the circuit board that they were using inside. This was because the group might need an integrated circuit. Secondly, version two could have the ability to control things other than the TV and not just electronic equipment but the whole environment of the room." "Grad C: OK so the this past week I ve been main mainly occupied with getting some results you from the SRI system trained on this short Hub five training set for the mean subtraction method And I ran some tests last night But c the results are suspicious it s cuz they are the baseline results are worse than Andreas than results Andreas got previously And it could have something to do with PhD F: That s on digits ? Grad C: That s on digits It c it it could h it could have something to do with downsampling That s that s worth looking into d and ap ap apart from that I guess the the main thing I have t ta I have to talk is where I m planning to go over the next week So I ve been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the SmartKom system And there s this question of well so in my tests before with HTK I found it worked it worked the best with about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean but we will often have less comment in the SmartKom system So I think we will use as much data as we have pause at a particular time and we will we will concatenate utterances together to get as much data as we possibly can from the user But there s a question of how to set up the models So we could train the models If we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean to mean subtract the training data Or we could use some other amount So like I did an experiment where I was using six seconds in test but for I tried twelve seconds in train And I tried the same in train I m a I tried six seconds in train And six seconds in train was about point three percent better and it s not clear to me yet whether that s something significant So I want to do some tests and actually make some plots of for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train Professor D: Guenter I do not know if you t followed this stuff but this is a long term long term window F F he you talked about it Professor G: we we spoke about it already Professor D: Oh OK So you know what he s doing Grad C: y s so I was I actually ran the experiments mostly and I I was I was hoping to have the plots with me today I just did not get to it But I wou I would be curious about people s feedback on this cuz I m comment I p I think there are some I think it s it s kind of like a a bit of a tricky engineering problem I m trying to figure out what s the optimal way to set this up So I will try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my on my web page And I will mention it in my status report if people want to take a look Professor D: You could clarify something for me You are saying point three percent you take a point three percent hit when the training and testing links are do not match or something ? Is that what it is ? Grad C: I I do not think it it s just for any mismatch you take a hit i In some cases it might be you better to have a mismatch Like I think I saw something like like if you only have two seconds in test or maybe it was something like four seconds you actually do a little better if you train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds but the case with the point three percent hit was using six seconds in test comparing train on twelve seconds comment versus train on six seconds Professor D: And which was worse ? Grad C: The train on twelve seconds Professor D: OK But point three percent w from what to what ? That s point three percent Grad C: On The the the accuracies w went from it was something vaguely like ninety five point six accuracy improved to ninety five point nine wh when I Professor D: So four point four to four point one So So about a about an eight percent seven or eight percent relative ? Well I think in a p You know if if you were going for an evaluation system you would care But if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice It s I think the thing is to get something that s practical that that you could really use Grad C: Huh That s that s interesting Alright the e I see your point I guess I was thinking of it as an interesting research problem The how to g I was thinking that for the ASRU paper we could have a section saying `` For SmartKom we we d in we tried this approach in interactive system `` which I do not think has been done before And and then there was two research questions from that And one is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ? Alright and the other was this question of what I was just talking about now So I guess that s why I thought it was interesting Professor D: I mean a short time FFT short time cepstrum calculation mean you mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems they do this all the time They the they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it you know But but as you say there has not been that much with this long long time spectra work Grad C: So that s that s that s standard Professor D: but you yes No it is interesting And the other thing is I mean there s two sides to these really small gradations in performance I mean on the one hand in a practical system if something is four point four percent error four point one percent error people will not really tell be able to tell the difference On the other hand when you are doing research you may eh you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety five percent accurate system to a ninety eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little things that you do that each are point three percent So so the they they it s I do not mean to say that they are they are irrelevant they are relevant But i for a demo you will not see it Grad C: And Let s l let s see OK And then there s another thing I want to start looking at wi is the choice of the analysis window length So I ve just been using two seconds just because that s what Carlos did before I wrote to him asking about he chose the two seconds And it seemed like he chose it a bit informally So with the with the HTK set up I should be able to do some experiments on just varying that length say between one and three seconds in a few different reverberation conditions say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation just making some plots and seeing how they look And so with the the sampling rate I was using one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two number of samples and I will I will jus f for the ones in between I guess I will just zero pad Professor D: Mm I guess one thing that might also be an issue cuz part of what you are doing is you are getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance You know if you if if if there s a lot of phones in one second maybe you will get a a really good sampling of all these different things and and on the other hand if someone s talking slowly maybe you would need more So I do not know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference I do not know Grad C: I do not I do not think the TI digits data that I have i is would be appropriate for that But what do you What about if I w I fed it through some kind of speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? Professor D: but then you will have the degradation of of whatever you do added onto that But maybe maybe if you get something that sounds that that s does a pretty job at that","The SRI system was doing worse on the hub-five training set for mean subtraction. The model performed better on six seconds of training data rather than twelve seconds, but the improvement was only point three percent. The professor thought small differences were important for research but not as important in industry. One suggestion for further work was changing speech rate using the algorithm, though it came at the risk of degrading the data." "Professor D: Mm I guess one thing that might also be an issue cuz part of what you are doing is you are getting a a spectrum over a bunch of different kinds of speech sounds and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance You know if you if if if there s a lot of phones in one second maybe you will get a a really good sampling of all these different things and and on the other hand if someone s talking slowly maybe you would need more So I do not know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference I do not know Grad C: I do not I do not think the TI digits data that I have i is would be appropriate for that But what do you What about if I w I fed it through some kind of speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ? Professor D: but then you will have the degradation of of whatever you do added onto that But maybe maybe if you get something that sounds that that s does a pretty job at that Grad C: Well just if you think it s worth looking into","The professor thought it mattered how fast someone was speaking since the model was getting a spectrum over different kinds of speech sounds. He was skeptical that changing speech rate was the solution, though he thought it was worth looking into. His solution was collecting more samplings of different phones for when people speak slower." "Grad C: And and th the third thing is Barry explained LDA filtering to me yesterday And so Mike Shire in his thesis did a a series of experiments training LDA filters in d on different conditions And you were interested in having me repeat this for for this mean subtraction approach ? Is is that right ? Or for these long analysis windows I guess is the right way to put it Professor D: I guess the the the issue I was the general issue I was bringing up was that if you are have a moving moving window a wa a a set of weights times things that move along shift along in time that you have in fact a linear time invariant filter And you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal And so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use in that sense of `` filter `` ? And as I was saying I think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything but just to do some sort of hamming or Hanning kind of window kind of thing just sort of to de emphasize the jarring So I think that would sort of be the first thing to do But then the LDA i is interesting because it would sort of say well suppose you actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion what would the filter look like then ? and that s sort of what we are doing in this Aur Aurora stuff And it s still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you ve trained up because you always have the problem that it s trained up for one condition and it is not quite right for another So that s that s why that s why RASTA filter has actually ended up lasting a long time people still using it quite a bit because y you do not change it So does not get any worse Grad C: o OK So a actually I was just thinking about what I was asking about earlier wi which is about having less than say twelve seconds in the SmartKom system to do the mean subtraction You said in systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction they concatenate utterances and do you know how they address this issue of testing versus training ? Can Professor G: I think what they do is they do it always on line I mean that you just take what you have from the past that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean","Grad C thought that one way to improve performance might be training LDA filters in different conditions. The professor D agreed that the LDA filter was interesting. He thought hamming would work too. Professor G said that most people just do on-line filtering, which entailed subtracting the mean, not LDA." "PhD E: And if you add too much noise it get worse also And it seems that right now this this is c a constant that does not depend on comment on anything that you can learn from the utterance It s just a constant noise addition And I I think w w Professor D: I I m sorry Then then I m confused I thought you are saying it does not depend on the utterance but I thought you were adding an amount that was twenty five DB down from the signal energy PhD E: so the way I did that comment i I just measured the average speech energy of the all the Italian data And then I I have I used this as mean speech energy Mm Professor D: Oh it s just a constant amount over all PhD E: wha what I observed is that for Italian and Spanish comment when you go to thirty and twenty five DB comment it it s good It stays In this range it s the p you well the performance of the this algorithm is quite good But for Finnish you have a degradation already when you go from thirty five to thirty and then from thirty to twenty five And I have the feeling that maybe it s because just Finnish has a mean energy that s lower than than the other databases And due to this the thresholds should be the the a the noise addition should be lower Professor D: But in I mean in the real thing you are not going to be able to measure what people are doing over half an hour or an hour or anything right ? So you have to come up with this number from something else Professor G: but you are not doing it now language dependent ? Or ? PhD E: It s not It s just something that s fixed Professor D: But what he is doing language dependent is measuring what that number i reference is that he comes down twenty five down from PhD E: so I g No It No Because I did it I started working on Italian I obtained this average energy and then I used this one PhD B: For all the languages OK Professor D: So it s sort of arbitrary I mean so if y if PhD E: so the next thing is to use this as as maybe initialization and then use something on line But And I expect improvement at least in Finnish because eh the way Well for Italian and Spanish it s th this value works good but not necessarily for Finnish Mmm But unfortunately there is like this forty millisecond latency and so I would try to somewhat reduce this I already know that if I completely remove this latency so comment it there is a three percent hit on Italian Professor G: Your your smoothing was comment over this s so to say the the factor of the Wiener And then it s What was it ? This this smoothing it was over the subtraction factor so to say PhD E: It s a smoothing over the the gain of the subtraction algorithm Professor G: Was this done Mm And and you are looking into the future into the past PhD E: So to smooth this pause thing Professor G: And did did you try simply to smooth to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? Because I mean it should have a similar effect if you I mean you you have now several stages of smoothing so to say You start up As far as I remember you you smooth somehow the envelope you smooth somehow the noise estimate and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor PhD E: no it s it s just the gain that s smoothed actually PhD B: actually I d I do all the smoothing Professor G: Ah Oh it w it was you PhD E: No in this case it s just the gain But the way it s done is that for low gain there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually For low gains I use the smoothed sm smoothed version but for high gain comment it s I do not smooth Professor G: Mm I just it Experience shows you if if you do the The best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible So w when you start up I mean you start up with the with the somehow with the noisy envelope And best is to smooth this somehow PhD E: Mm I could try this PhD B: So before estimating the SNR smooth the envelope PhD E: Mm But Then I I would need to find a way to like smooth less also when there is high energy Cuz I noticed that it it helps a little bit to s like smooth more during low energy portions and less during speech because if you smooth then y you kind of distort the speech Professor G: I think when w you you could do it in this way that you say if you if I m you have somehow a noise estimate and if you say I m I m with my envelope I m close to this noise estimate then you have a bad signal to noise ratio and then you you would like to have a stronger smoothing So you could you could base it on your estimation of the signal to noise ratio on your actual PhD B: or some silence probability from the VAD if you have PhD E: but I do not trust the current VAD So PhD B: so not not right now maybe Professor D: The VAD later will be much better PhD F: So is pause that it ? PhD E: fff comment I think that s it Professor G: s So to summarize the performance of these SpeechDat Car results is similar than than yours so to say PhD B: so the fifty eight is like the be some fifty six point Professor G: Y you have you have fifty six point four and and and dependent on this additive constant it is s better or or worse PhD E: And i i i the condition where it s better than your approach it s it just because maybe it s better on well matched and that the weight on well matched is is bigger if you do not weigh differently the different condition you can see that your well the win the two stage Wiener filtering is maybe better or It s better for high mismatch right ? PhD B: it s better for high mismatch PhD E: Mm But a little bit worse for well matched","Too much noise was causing the model to perform worse, so the noise addition was constant and not too high. The overall improvement was good. The smoothing for the average for noise addition was only done on low gains. The model performed better on high mismatch." "PhD E: It s better for high mismatch right ? PhD B: it s better for high mismatch PhD E: Mm But a little bit worse for well matched PhD B: So over all it gets worse for the well matched condition so y PhD F: So we need to combine these two PhD B: that s that s the best thing is like the French Telecom system is optimized for the well matched condition They c So they know that the weighting is good for the well matched and so there s everywhere the well matched s s s performance is very good for the French Telecom T we are we may also have to do something similar Professor D: Well our tradition here has always been to focus on the mismatched Cuz it s more interesting Professor G: Mu my mine was it too I mean Before I started working on this Aurora PhD H: Well I only say that the this is a summary of the of all the VTS experiments and say that the result in the last comment for Italian the last experiment for Italian are bad I make a mistake when I write Up at D I copy one of the bad result And There You know this well If we put everything we improve a lot you the spectral use of the VTS but the final result are not still mmm good like the Wiener filter for example I do not know Maybe it s comment it s possible to to have the same result I do not know exactly Mmm Because I have mmm comment worse result in medium mismatch and high mismatch PhD B: You s you have a better r You have some results that are good for the high mismatch PhD H: And I someti are more or less similar but but are worse And still I do not have the result for TI digits The program is training Maybe for this weekend I will have result TI digits and I can complete that s like this Well One thing that I comment note are not here in this result but are speak are spoken before with Sunil I I improve my result using clean LDA filter If I use eh the LDA filter that are training with the noisy speech that hurts the res my results Professor D: So what are these numbers here ? Are these with the clean or with the noisy ?","The model that PhD B was working on performed better on high mismatch than on the well matched case. The professor thought that this reflected the team's priority, which had always focused more so on the high mismatched case. PhD H was concerned that their model did worse on medium and high mismatch. Adding noise hurt their model." "Professor G: And did did you try simply to smooth to smooth the the t to to smooth stronger the the envelope ? Because I mean it should have a similar effect if you I mean you you have now several stages of smoothing so to say You start up As far as I remember you you smooth somehow the envelope you smooth somehow the noise estimate and and later on you smooth also this subtraction factor PhD E: no it s it s just the gain that s smoothed actually PhD B: actually I d I do all the smoothing Professor G: Ah Oh it w it was you PhD E: No in this case it s just the gain But the way it s done is that for low gain there is this non nonlinear smoothing actually For low gains I use the smoothed sm smoothed version but for high gain comment it s I do not smooth Professor G: Mm I just it Experience shows you if if you do the The best is to do the smoo smoothing as early as possible",Professor G was trying to understand where the smoothing took place in PhD B's model. Professor G suggested that the smoothing was best done as early as possible. "Hefin David AM: Good afternoon Minister With regard to your five principles which you have set out today regarding when schools will reopen they are very clear that they require a judgment from you So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen ? Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Hefin I am very clear that schools will move to a new phase—because already schools are open in many settings we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly I am clear that a return to normal is not imminent and therefore I am not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when in the longer term it might be ? Kirsty Williams AM: No I have not been given a date What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in as you said me making a decision So clearly we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers but the principles are very clear Firstly we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional wellbeing of children and young people and the staff Obviously I can not make a decision regarding education in isolation It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic Thirdly it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff on the information that we have used to reach any decisions to build confidence for parents and professionals but also to give them time to plan It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working And we also have to look at—and it is been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting which groups they should be And finally how do we operationalise that ? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education school transport issues how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate for instance ? So there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very very carefully before we could return before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education and new approaches to what schooling may look like But again I must be absolutely clear to you members of the committee and to people watching : it is not feasible in this sense that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic","Hefin David AM raised a question concerning the date schools might reopen since there had been an increase in the number of students who had returned to some schools. However, Kirsty Williams AM had not been given an exact date by the chief medical officer and the public had to wait for the advice of the medical and scientific advisers. Now, the only thing for certain was the five principles that had been published earlier that day concerning the school reopening issues." Kirsty Williams AM: No I have not been given a date What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in as you said me making a decision So clearly we will be relying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers but the principles are very clear Firstly we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the physical and the emotional wellbeing of children and young people and the staff Obviously I can not make a decision regarding education in isolation It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic Thirdly it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff on the information that we have used to reach any decisions to build confidence for parents and professionals but also to give them time to plan It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working And we also have to look at—and it is been paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting which groups they should be And finally how do we operationalise that ? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in the context of education school transport issues how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate for instance ? So there are very practical issues that would need to be considered and thought through very very carefully before we could return before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education and new approaches to what schooling may look like But again I must be absolutely clear to you members of the committee and to people watching : it is not feasible in this sense that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic,"Firstly, any decision to have more children returning to school made should align with the safety and the physical and the emotional well-being of students and the staff. Secondly, new decisions made from the education ministry should be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, communication with the parents and staff were crucial and they should be given time to adapt to the changes. Moreover, certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting should also be considered. Lastly, to have adequate numbers of workforce available in order to assure those settings as safe as possible, and how to tackle with the challenges about keeping social distancing in the context of education or school transport issues should be taken into account." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you I am keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schools with some questions from Siân Gwenllian Siân Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open the number of children attending those schools and the number of staff involved and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population On average I think it is 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend these locations and some 5 per cent of the staff So can you analyse those figures a little further ? Can you tell us how many children according to this data are children of key workers and how many are vulnerable children ? Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much Siân As you quite rightly say on average we have 518 school hubs open each day with up to 4200 children attending We have seen an increase in the number of attendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term We have approximately 56 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs and at present 85 per cent of the children who are attending are the children of key workers the remainder being vulnerable children So we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day These are small numbers but we have seen an increase in those numbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term","Sian Gwenllian AM introduced that according to the Welsh Government, currently 1 percent of the children of Wales and some 5 percent of the staff actually attended the schools. Kirsty Williams AM added that on average,there were 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. There has been an increase in the number of attendances since the summer term and there were approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs. The overall education situation seemed positive, with 600 vulnerable children averaging per day." "Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that The smooth operation of the hubs with regard to health and safety is of course of paramount importance What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time So following my announcement on I believe 18 March the week after we saw a large number of settings open and operating As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers and vulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed and we have been able to give guidance in that regard Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis So how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on ? And how many of those have tested positive ? Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID19 and I believe two of those results have come back as positive Can I make it absolutely clear the week before last Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested ? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs if they or a member of their family are exhibiting any of the symptoms however mild of COVID19 they can and they should be tested Sian Gwenllian AM: And the final question from me on this : how important is testing going to be in this next phase as you start to think about relaxing restrictions ? Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously the ability to be able to test to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very very important and significant building block in all aspects of the Governments work to respond to this pandemic","To answer Sian Gwenllian AM's question, Kirsty Williams AM mentioned that to include more critical workers and vulnerable students, more local authorities had been advised to move to a hub model, and the education ministry office had been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed. Local authorities are asked to report any incidents where they were concerned about operation issues on the ground. Kirsty Williams AM also agreed with Sian Gwenllian AM that testing was crucially important in dealing with this crisis and the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine would be critical to the next phase." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Just following on from your answer to Siân Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school what is being done specifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment ? I am thinking about the 600 you have talked about and I know in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr which is a very small authority we are talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands not hundreds and that is just in one authority So this is a particularly difficult issue to address I appreciate but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs ? Kirsty Williams AM: Dawn The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge to not just Wales but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland Scotland and England I am pleased to say that we are working across Government departments—myself obviously and colleagues in education—with colleagues in social services to have a crossGovernment approach to these issues I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages because the overriding public health message from our Government has been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly safely and effectively we do need to limit the number of children who are attending those hubs So firstly the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages because parents have been heeding those messages but of course all of us will have concerns for some children who remain at home So I am pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children So although numbers are small they have doubled over the course of the last week We are working with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multiagency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways and that includes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs They are also looking to support in other ways Of course some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of vulnerable is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs For some of those children who perhaps have very intense health needs actually staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do and we are looking to support families and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families in a number of ways We also know that just because you do not have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable and schools are very aware of the needs of those children and have been carrying out regular telephone checkins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children But we will continue to work across Government to encourage where it is appropriate children to attend settings and if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure that they remain and their families remain supported Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Minister It is encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume within that appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child Similarly with special educational needs whereas some of those children benefit clearly from a onetoone provision in a school and they may not respond as well to remote working or remote contact with an SEN advisor are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for those children in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well first of all Dawn you are absolutely right : my expectation is that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children and schools should continue to refer children to childrens services if they have any concerns and that would also of course be the case for youth workers who may be keeping in contact with children So there is a professional expectation on all those that are working with our children and young people that despite the circumstances they find themselves in they should continue to report and refer cases if they see anything or hear or are told anything that makes them concerned about a childs welfare and safety With regard to children with additional learning needs I am aware that that can present a number of challenges to families and children and perhaps Steve Davies could give some further details We have been keen to work with local authorities to ensure specialist provision where that is appropriate—so if I could give you an example of my own local authority in Powys they have two specialist centres available for children with more profound additional learning needs and those centres are available—recognising however that even with the provision of specialist hubs it can be a challenge for some children with additional learning needs to find themselves outside of a routine Hubs are often staffed on a rota basis and therefore children could be faced with staff that they are unfamiliar with So even when local authorities—and the vast vast majority of them do—have specialist services in place sometimes that might not be the best thing for a childs health and wellbeing But perhaps Steve can give us further details of the conversations that have been taking place with directors of education to ensure that children with additional learning needs have access to the hubs and specialist support Steve Steve Davies: Yes myself and colleague Albert Heaney—colleaguedirector—have been in regular touch with directors of education and directors of social services to make sure that these children and young peoples needs are catered for We are very aware of all of the special schools—profound and multiple learning difficulties EBD schools and pupil referral units—that have been kept open in their own way but also in some cases as hubs to deliver those services for those childrens needs and we are pleased that the directors and the local authorities have responded so constructively So we have the details of every school that is open the pupils who are attending and we are clear that the risk assessments that the Minister referred to for children with special needs as well as wider vulnerable groups—they are having risk assessments to make sure that where there is a need identified for a pupil that is not currently attending a hub then the local authority can be working with that child and with the parents","Dawn Bowden AM asked about the methods to include more vulnerable children to the hubs and to begin with, Kirsty Williams AM suggested that this challenge was faced by the four nations. The Welsh Government, together with local authorities and local education systems were looking to support families whose children had special education needs in a number of ways, including to decrease risks for hiring a social worker. Moreover, Dawn Bowden AM assumed that appropriate referral mechanisms should still be in place, which was agreed by Kirsty Williams AM who added that schools should remain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Just two more questions One is around emotional and mental health difficulties being experienced by children and young people at the moment Now there was a very welcome announcement of £125 million pounds for school counselling How is that in practical terms being applied if those children are not actually in school ? Kirsty Williams AM: You are right Dawn : we have to consider how we can support children not only in their learning during this time but also to recognise the very real impact that the pandemic will have on all of our mental health and wellbeing—recognising of course it is absolutely natural for all of us including children and young people to have fears and anxieties at this time That is a natural reaction to the situation that we find ourselves in But of course there are issues around those children that would have currently been receiving school counselling and also being able to be in a position to respond to a potential growth in the number of children that are receiving support So the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families In the immediacy of course that will have to be done in different ways than perhaps we have traditionally delivered services in the past because of social distancing and lockdown rules but we want to get some of these systems in place now rather than waiting for everything to go back to normal We need to be able to plan to offer services in the here and now but also be able to plan for what potentially could be an increase in the demand of those services So we have been in close touch with local authorities asking them what they believe that they will need and how they can use additional financial resources and we have been very pleased to be able to secure that for them Dawn Bowden AM: So that would include things like telephone and video support as well I guess then Kirsty Williams AM: Yes absolutely So that would include remote counselling as in a fashion that we are doing now but also as and when some of the restrictions are perhaps removed looking at an enhanced family therapy or a therapy approach So when we talk about counselling I think it is important to recognise that there will be some flexibility around this money and it does not necessarily mean that local authorities have to use it on a onetoone basis That might not be appropriate for some children especially our younger children and their families and they can use that money to provide counselling or therapy—in the widest possible terms—that is the best method to support individual children and their families But clearly we are having to do that in the confines of lockdown and social distancing at the moment Some of that money can also be used to support the professional learning and the professional development of counsellors because of course they may be being asked to work in a different way and we need to make sure that they have the appropriate skills and abilities to do that","Kirsty Williams AM mentioned that those children would have currently been receiving school counselling, and there would be more children receiving support. In this case, the additional money will be made available to local authorities to be able to increase and ramp up services to support children and families with intense need. Moreover, how to adapt patterns to deliver these services to the pandemic situation would be discussed. For instance, video or telephone methods would be adopted and one to one basis help patterns would also be included to support professional learning for counsellings." "Suzy Davies AM: Oh thank you My question goes back to the comment you made earlier Minister about the number of children doubling—sorry vulnerable children doubling—after the Easter break if we can call it that So what I am after is a sense of churn in these establishments So was that figure a recovery of a number of children that had been there before the Easter break and are the people who are there still the same people as were there right at the beginning of the crisis and the lockdown ? Kirsty Williams AM: Suzy what I believe that we are seeing in our schools is new pupils coming into school So there has been I know a real effort on behalf of educationalists and social services staff to really reach out to families and to make sure that they are aware of the support that is available out there for them and their children and to be able to give them the confidence that there are—that the hubs are available for them So we have seen an increase in children Those numbers are still small and I believe potentially there is an opportunity to build on that and to have further conversations with families about the support that is available for vulnerable children whether that— That vulnerability of course can cover a whole range of issues As I said when we last met this is a constantly evolving situation The initial response—local authorities and schools worked incredibly fast and incredibly quickly to set up these hubs We have seen an evolution in the weeks since that time and I am sure that we will continue to see some evolution in approaches Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Hefin you had a supplementary—briefly please Hefin David AM: Yes very quickly I have been listening to the answers with regard to vulnerable children following on from that answer I am at home with a vulnerable child—a child who has got additional learning needs She is got autism she is four I imagine there are many many parents in exactly the same position—I have heard from them I have not heard anything from the school or from the local authority Should I have heard something or should I be proactive in pursuing it ? Kirsty Williams AM: I do not want to comment on personal cases— Hefin David AM: But there are many others in this position Kirsty Williams AM: —but what I would say is that if parents have concerns and want to have a conversation about what support is available to them and their children they should contact their local education authority to have a conversation as to what support is available","As being questioned by Suzy Davies AM about continuing studies at home during the lockdown, Kirsty Williams AM suggested that educationalists and social services staff had really reached out to families and they intent to make sure that families with difficulties were aware of the support that was available out there for them and their children. Meanwhile, local authorities were encouraged to keep in contact with families to recognize their special needs for student education at home." "Dawn Bowden AM: Yes my last question is really about the potential for the attainment between disadvantaged pupils and their more affluent peers Is that a concern for you ? I am thinking particularly in relation to those less affluent families in having access to technology and so on What kind of concerns do you have about that and what are we looking to do to try to ensure that that does not actually play out ? Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Dawn All of the statistics would tell us that learning loss and the potentially will affect those more vulnerable children the most Clearly we will want to consider that as we think about what the new normal for education may look like or as we develop into future phases Depending on where that child is in their educational journey of course the needs and the potential for loss are slightly different So for instance when we are thinking about very young children we could be thinking about a lack of social interaction and the development of oracy skills Of course that potentially then will have a knockon to their ability to learn to read and then to write for instance For other children who are perhaps older and heading towards formal examinations the challenge when they return to school will be a slightly different one I am not sure Chair whether you want me to give some further details about our continuityoflearning plan and how we are looking to address digital disadvantage now or whether there are questions later Lynne Neagle AM: Well I have got a question on that coming up so if it is Dawn we will go on to that now Before we do that I was just going to ask how the Welsh Government is paying due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and obviously the right children and young people have to an education I was going to ask you about the risk of inequality due to varying access to digital resources which are so important in ensuring continuity of learning Kirsty Williams AM: You are absolutely correct Chair Officials are very aware of our responsibilities towards childrens rights in this regard and we are doing whatever we can to ensure that children have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time We are fortunate in the regard that because of previous decisions and investments we have a strong base on which to build because we have our Hwb digital learning platform and because we have invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools which are available to all families We have become the first I think—we are certainly the first in the UK and I am not sure whether we are the first across the world but I think we probably are—to deploy for instance Adobe Spark nationally But obviously access to hardware and connectivity is crucial at this time Officials are working with local authorities to ensure that all children have access to both the hardware and the connectivity they need to be able to participate in digital learning at this particular time","Kirsty Williams AM first introduced the difficult situation as being face by these group of children, whose educational journey would be slightly different with others. And it was always important that children could have an equal opportunity and have equal access to learning at this time. To tackle the challenge, Hwb digital learning platform had been heavily invested and the government had also invested heavily in the national purchasing of Microsoft Office and Google for Education tools, which were available to all families. Meanwhile, connection to the Internet would further be assured." Kirsty Williams AM: Yes absolutely So I am hoping to make an announcement tomorrow if not later on this week about some specific details around support for hardware and connectivity We are working closely with local authorities to understand just that : to understand from the schools the number of schools that—and a number of them have already done this—have been lending Chromebooks iPads and laptops to children and also identifying children who are not perhaps engaging in the activities that have been made available And we will be doing two things to support local authorities The first is to use the stock of equipment that they already have to be able to provide hardware to students So we have purchased on a national basis software that when applied to an old piece of kit essentially turns it into an outofthebox Chromebook Because as you can imagine just like other things during a pandemic there has been a rush to buy new stuff on the market and then there is a scramble and nobody can get what they need So we are utilisng kit that is already available in schools and local authorities and we will look to backfill that to schools at a later point out of our EdTech investment programme The other issue is once a child has a Chromebook or a laptop or a device issues around connectivity So we are also looking to purchase on a national level and distribute MiFi connectivity so students will be able to have access to WiFi where they do not have that already That is why we need to work closely with local authorities and schools to identify the level of that need and to make sure the stuff gets to the right children One of the ways in which we are able to do that is to look at engagement in education So if a child has not been engaging is that because they just do not want to and they are voting with their feet—but clearly teachers need to have a conversation about that—or is that because the child simply does not have the ability to do that and therefore we need to get that stuff out to those children ? So rather than just simply leaving it to local authorities to scramble around in a very crowded market to get the stuff that they will need we are trying to do that on a national basis and deploy that to local authorities So our officials have been having conversations with each of our local authorities to ascertain what is already happened and there is very good practice out there—schools have been proactive—but where there are gaps what can we do as a national Government to be able to assist them to do that ? We are repurposing some of the resources that we had previously identified for our EdTech investment using those resources to fill this particular,"Kirsty Williams AM shared that the government were working closely with local authorities to understand what school had already done, for instance lending Chromebooks, iPads and laptops to children. Schools should make sure that students' access to current education patterns were available to all. Besides, nationwide purchase of digital learning tools, the government was also looking to purchase and distribute Mi-Fi connectivity on a national level. Last but not least, the government and local authorities were together continuing to identify education gap and decided to repurpose some of the resources which had been previously identified for the EdTech investment, using those resources to fill this particular gap." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes What are your expectations for how Alevel and GCSE qualifications will be awarded this summer following the ministerial direction that you have issued to Qualifications Wales ? For example how is an appropriate balance being taken between recognising the progress of pupils in their coursework mock examinations and other work to date and also the potential of pupils who might have performed particularly well in their examinations this summer ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well Janet I understand—and today is a day where some students would have been undertaking practical examinations—I understand how devastating it has been to both students and teachers alike for the decision I had to take to cancel this summers exam series But I am absolutely clear that was the only decision that could have been reached Qualifications Wales has made it very clear—and for people who would like more information I would urge them to look at Qualifications Waless website—how they will go about giving allocating and awarding a grade to our Alevel and GCSE students Firstly teachers will be asked to submit a grade they believe that student would have obtained should they have taken an exam And of course teachers will have a range of data and their own professional judgment that they will use in awarding that grade Teachers will also be asked to rank students in order Once that information has been submitted to Qualifications Wales there will be a process by which that data will be moderated moderated from centre to centre and across the nation thus giving us the chance to award a student a fair grade whilst being and remaining true to ensuring that we have a robust qualifications system and allowing those students who find themselves at a critical stage of their education where they are looking to move on to the next stages—that they will have the grades that will allow them to make decisions about their future","Janet Finch-Saunders AM asked about how A-level and GCSE would be awarded in alignment with Qualifications Wales and Kirsty Williams AM explained that to cancel this summer's exam series was the only clear decision although it was devastating for both students and teachers. Currently, to grade the performance, teachers would first be asked to submit a grade they believed that the student would have obtained, should they have taken an exam. And teachers would have a range of data and their own professional judgment when grading. Once that information had been submitted to Qualifications Wales, there would be a process by which that data would be moderated; moderated from centre to centre and across the nation." "Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Chair I suppose my first question just goes back to the 16yearolds at the moment and those who are looking forward to either going to college the older ones going to university there will be apprenticeships all kinds of future pathways for post 16 What is happening at school level or even at college level to get those students ready for the next steps because obviously they are not in their usual environments and getting their usual programme of teaching ? Kirsty Williams AM: No that is quite right Suzy and I should have said in answer to Janets question as well—I am sure people already know but just to get the point across—that Alevel results day and GCSE day will run as normal across not just Wales but England Wales and Northern Ireland which is really important You are right Suzy—for those people that are coming to the end of one part of their education this is a particularly challenging time You will be aware that last week on Hwb we were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university I am very grateful to the HE sector in Wales who have worked really hard with us on that So for instance if you were a year 13 student or even a year 12 student that was thinking about or interested in areas around social policy you could have tuned into a social policy lecturer at Swansea University If you go to the Hwb website you will be able to see that there are subject listings everything from animal science through to law politics history and science with links through to higher education and further education courses that students can avail themselves of There is also a section on preparation for essential study skills whether that is report writing or academic writing So there is a range of activities and courses available for year 13 so that children—children they are all children to me—young people can get themselves— They do not have to stop learning and they can get themselves ready for the next stage of their education Again for those children perhaps who are coming to the end of their GCSEs there is a range of information either within their own schools or within their local colleges about things that can keep them learning So for instance I am aware of one school where you can go onto the website and there are recommendations of for instance what you could be reading over the summer if you are interested in doing this particular Alevel in September I know that there are also moves in schools and in colleges to be able to make sure that those children do not miss out on really important careers advice at this time as well and information so they can make informed decisions I know that people are working hard to link up children to advice services that are available so that they can make those really important future decisions with the advice of either a teacher or other professional so that they have got those options So there is material out there and it is growing all the time This week we were able to launch our virtual Seren network You will be aware that for the last couple of years we have been able to send Welsh children to the Yale global summer school Clearly that can not happen this year That is devastating for those year 12s who had worked so hard and had won a place on that programme They will now be able to attend the Yale global scholars programme virtually and remotely because Yale have moved that programme online So we are developing materials and resources all of the time","To get the students who planned to enter college for the next step, Kirsty Williams AM introduced that last week, on Hwb, they were able to launch a programme for year 13 students to help them get ready for university. On the Hwb website, students would be able to see the subject listings, everything from animal science through to law, politics, history and science, with links through to higher education and further education courses that students could avail themselves of. There was also a section on preparation for essential study skills, whether that was report writing or academic writing.Similar preparation like the help from career advice website was also accessible. Meanwhile, new materials and resources would be developed." "Suzy Davies AM: I just want to ask you now about students and their maintenance loan grants I think they are getting around now the money going into their bank account that they would normally have expected at this time of year That is right yes ? What is happening to those students who would normally be living in digs somewhere but are now living at home ? Are they likely to be asked to reimburse part of the cost because obviously it is not as expensive to live at home as away and what is likely to be happening with the maintenance loans over the summer holiday period potentially ? Because we have had a period now where students can not top up their maintenance loans by going out and working on weekends or working in the evenings or whatever so their income has been impacted Just in the round what kind of conversations are happening around that ? Again it is probably a fournation approach I would imagine Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Suzy You are correct to say that our student support regime does allow for a lower payment to be made to those students that stay at home during their studies but I want to reassure students that there will be no change to their student support payments just because they have left their universities and have decided to go home There should be no change Also we are continuing it should be important to say to pay education maintenance allowance at this time for our FE students that are eligible for that even though obviously for EMA there is an attendance requirement but clearly that is not appropriate to enforce at the moment You are correct—this is a worrying time for many students in higher education especially for those who are looking to graduate at this time and are going out into an economy that has been tremendously badly hit by the pandemic At this time we continue to have conversations with NUS Wales about what can be done within a Welsh context but as you quite rightly say also within a UK context to support students who may have been affected We are continuing—on our webpage we have a frequently asked questions section that advises students in the first instance especially when it comes for instance to the cost of accommodation—to have those discussions and I am very grateful that in some cases some of our institutions have been able to waive or partially waive accommodation fees where students have vacated their accommodation and have returned to their usual home address But we will continue to have dialogue with NUS Wales and with our counterparts across the country to look to see what more we can do to support students at this time Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer and yes I was pleased to see that announcement through the NUS as well so well done to those accommodation providers who have a heart I think we will all have seen the Universities UK document that explains some of the difficulties that they are going to be running into if this proceeds much further My understanding is that the main emphasis at the moment is to try and get all the universities across the UK through this initial period of difficulty by releasing as much money as possible I can see that your figure to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was a little bit down on last years letter—not that there is been a remit letter yet but an indication Are you releasing that money earlier so that they can use it more swiftly or does that not matter ?","Suzy Davies AM asked whether the money of the student support regime would decrease since students were currently studying at home at a much lower cost. Kirsty Williams AM made it clear that there would be no change on that, as the same amount of money would go to students' accounts as a way of assuring students' attendance and the family's confidence under the extreme situation." "Suzy Davies AM: The second part of my question is : there were going to be Easter holidays anyway were not there ? What was going to happen about freeschoolmeal children during that period ? Has that gone out of the window now the normal holiday provision for children ? Because that is not there normally is it except in separate— Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation My understanding is what we are trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange You get this for two weeks then you do not get it for two weeks and then you are back in My understanding is in England that is what they are going to do We are trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays It will not matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks We are trying to create a system that will run uniformly That is our policy goal at the moment Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly building on Suzys question one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers For some of them they may not be able to come into school because the people they are caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions But I think that for other young carers coming to school is an absolute lifeline because they are working at home So I do not know if it is appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities but it is a group of young people who again may not be vulnerable in other ways but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school And the other group—and this I suppose goes back to Suzys point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they are at risk of witnessing domestic abuse Again these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be So again I would put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools If a teacher is worried about what a childs circumstances are like at home whether they can be as you said Kirsty included as one of the— They may not be formally identified but if the teacher knows that they are at risk or there is an instinct that they are at risk they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you are making at this difficult time Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still So we will take these issues into consideration but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan Rob is the expert on that not me Rob Orford: Yes absolutely This is a rapidlyevolving problem and the scale is something that we have not seen in 100 years and so we are having to evolve and iterate things as we go Next week I think will look different to this week So it kind of is what it is We have all got a role to play and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission Areas that we are worried about are displacement activities If we close the schools then people collect at others houses We need to send a really clear message that you are all part of the solution and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak The more that we can do that the easier it will be when we go forward Helen Mary Jones AM: I am sure that that is true but I am sure that we would not be wanting a child who is in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time Hopefully we are talking about relatively small numbers but I just— Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way Lynne Neagle AM: Janet you had a supplementary Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair and good morning Minister and your team Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you are having to endure at this moment ? I think it is fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and indeed our communities Now the question I have : if Cylch Meithrin have to close where will they get money from to pay their staff ? Because currently thankfully there is support for businesses Lynne Neagle AM: Janet we are not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment we are sticking with schools as we discussed in advance Dawn Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity Steve around what you were saying in terms of next week ? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you do not know all of this yet I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us obviously with constituents saying Well what is going to happen to that ? Just so that I can be clear are you saying that at this stage every headteacher will be in school on Monday as will all their staff ? Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in for some to start the delivery of what we just described but that will probably be small numbers but more importantly to plan to ensure that after the formal Easter period which is school holidays the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we have been discussing Dawn Bowden AM: So would you anticipate—again I know this is all a bit if and when and it depends on the changing nature of the advice but from what you are saying I think we can probably anticipate that as we go forward there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites Would that possibly— ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential So we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way That local authority has already chosen those locations and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres So that could well— That I expect in the longer term will be the nature of the provision that we will get to But that is not for us to dictate The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best pragmatic use of the resources that they have available and of course those resources primarily are human beings So we have talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff teaching assistants but we are also having discussions with local authorities and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week to look at deploying youth workers to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ like sports development officers There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can not continue at the moment but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term to be able to provide a great place for children to be We want to give parents who we are asking— Let us think about it in these worst of times we are asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk potentially And we want to give those parents confidence that when they leave their child with us that child will receive something really worthwhile and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you— Janet have you got a supplementary on schools now not on early years settings ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before so it is a little bit confusing at this end so bear with me Just in terms of the closure of schools I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it but bear in mind Inaudible—mean in practice And also they are already asking what will next— ? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? Lynne Neagle AM: We have covered that Janet Kirsty Williams AM: First of all Janet I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments That is really really kind of you We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions So each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week Lynne Neagle AM: I think you are having trouble hearing us are not you so I think— ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No I heard that loud and clear Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools So I am sorry about that we are having some problems with the connection Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes we could not get a signal Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement Kirsty Williams AM: Yes they are absolutely central to that planning We know again that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families Therefore the same situation that we have just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools We will be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings In some cases that may not be possible So again already local authorities are making different provision Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools But again Steve can give more detail Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge because a significant proportion of their children because of their conditions have not been coming to school they have been isolated But the principle we have used there is actually even if it is a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable they deserve and need that support through the school So we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children But similarly even in special schools there will be children whose parents will be key workers so we would expect them to apply that same principle Just quickly in response to the earlier question while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools we will have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely given the nature of the special school so we would look to cater for that within the original school","According to Kirsty, they are actually in an unusual situation but they were trying to create a system where it would be seamless and it would not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. One particular group of children and young people that they hoped would be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category was young carers. The basic principle they used was that even if it was a minority of children who went to those schools and were vulnerable, they deserved and needed the support through the school." "Suzy Davies AM: The second part of my question is : there were going to be Easter holidays anyway were not there ? What was going to happen about freeschoolmeal children during that period ? Has that gone out of the window now the normal holiday provision for children ? Because that is not there normally is it except in separate— Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation My understanding is what we are trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange You get this for two weeks then you do not get it for two weeks and then you are back in My understanding is in England that is what they are going to do We are trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays It will not matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks We are trying to create a system that will run uniformly That is our policy goal at the moment Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly building on Suzys question one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers For some of them they may not be able to come into school because the people they are caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions But I think that for other young carers coming to school is an absolute lifeline because they are working at home So I do not know if it is appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities but it is a group of young people who again may not be vulnerable in other ways but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school And the other group—and this I suppose goes back to Suzys point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they are at risk of witnessing domestic abuse Again these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be So again I would put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools If a teacher is worried about what a childs circumstances are like at home whether they can be as you said Kirsty included as one of the— They may not be formally identified but if the teacher knows that they are at risk or there is an instinct that they are at risk they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you are making at this difficult time Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still So we will take these issues into consideration but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan Rob is the expert on that not me Rob Orford: Yes absolutely This is a rapidlyevolving problem and the scale is something that we have not seen in 100 years and so we are having to evolve and iterate things as we go Next week I think will look different to this week So it kind of is what it is We have all got a role to play and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission Areas that we are worried about are displacement activities If we close the schools then people collect at others houses We need to send a really clear message that you are all part of the solution and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak The more that we can do that the easier it will be when we go forward Helen Mary Jones AM: I am sure that that is true but I am sure that we would not be wanting a child who is in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad— It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time Hopefully we are talking about relatively small numbers but I just— Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way Lynne Neagle AM: Janet you had a supplementary Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair and good morning Minister and your team Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you are having to endure at this moment ? I think it is fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and indeed our communities Now the question I have : if Cylch Meithrin have to close where will they get money from to pay their staff ? Because currently thankfully there is support for businesses Lynne Neagle AM: Janet we are not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment we are sticking with schools as we discussed in advance Dawn Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity Steve around what you were saying in terms of next week ? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you do not know all of this yet I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us obviously with constituents saying Well what is going to happen to that ? Just so that I can be clear are you saying that at this stage every headteacher will be in school on Monday as will all their staff ? Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in for some to start the delivery of what we just described but that will probably be small numbers but more importantly to plan to ensure that after the formal Easter period which is school holidays the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we have been discussing","Kirsty admitted that they were now in a strange situation. What they were trying to work to was that they would have ongoing provision. Also, they were trying to create a system that would run uniformly. Such was a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale was something that they had not seen in 100 years. Therefore, they would have to evolve and iterate things as they went. Now they were worried about displacement activities. During the holidays, every head teacher would be in school on Monday with their staff." "Dawn Bowden AM: So would you anticipate—again I know this is all a bit if and when and it depends on the changing nature of the advice but from what you are saying I think we can probably anticipate that as we go forward there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites Would that possibly— ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential So we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way That local authority has already chosen those locations and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres So that could well— That I expect in the longer term will be the nature of the provision that we will get to But that is not for us to dictate The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best pragmatic use of the resources that they have available and of course those resources primarily are human beings So we have talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff teaching assistants but we are also having discussions with local authorities and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week to look at deploying youth workers to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ like sports development officers There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can not continue at the moment but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term to be able to provide a great place for children to be We want to give parents who we are asking— Let us think about it in these worst of times we are asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk potentially And we want to give those parents confidence that when they leave their child with us that child will receive something really worthwhile and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you— Janet have you got a supplementary on schools now not on early years settings ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before so it is a little bit confusing at this end so bear with me Just in terms of the closure of schools I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it but bear in mind Inaudible—mean in practice And also they are already asking what will next— ? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work ? Lynne Neagle AM: We have covered that Janet Kirsty Williams AM: First of all Janet I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments That is really really kind of you We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions So each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week Lynne Neagle AM: I think you are having trouble hearing us are not you so I think— ? Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No I heard that loud and clear Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools So I am sorry about that we are having some problems with the connection Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes we could not get a signal Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement","Based on Kirsty's words, this was a potential. The local authority had already chosen some locations and was already having communications with how they would then staff the centers. The local authorities were best placed to understand what was the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they had available, and of course those resources, primarily, were human beings. They wanted to give the parents confidence that, when they left their child with us, that child would receive something really worthwhile, and they could direct all of their attention to doing their job." "Kirsty Williams AM: Yes they are absolutely central to that planning We know again that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families Therefore the same situation that we have just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools We will be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings In some cases that may not be possible So again already local authorities are making different provision Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools But again Steve can give more detail Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge because a significant proportion of their children because of their conditions have not been coming to school they have been isolated But the principle we have used there is actually even if it is a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable they deserve and need that support through the school So we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children But similarly even in special schools there will be children whose parents will be key workers so we would expect them to apply that same principle Just quickly in response to the earlier question while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools we will have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely given the nature of the special school so we would look to cater for that within the original school","Already, local authorities were making different provisions. Even in special schools, there would be children whose parents would be key workers. Therefore, they would expect them to expect those sChools to apply the same principle. They would have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school. Thus, they would look to cater for that within the original school." "Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams obviously you made the announcement yesterday I completely understand that everything is a very fastmoving situation but as you know there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who have put a lot of work in Are you able to tell us any more today ? In particular have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken but I have done so on the very very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting and then of course there is a formal process that we have to go through That now allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work We are trying as far as we can as I understand it to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day for instance It might not be possible because of course we are dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it and those human beings could find themselves unwell So our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August but that has to be caveated by the fact that we are dealing with difficult circumstances But the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next Lynne Neagle AM: Janet you had a question on this Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I think I raised it yesterday Kirsty but you were receiving loads of questions I would just ask for some further clarification about coursework because only 30 per cent of that is done Years 11 and 13 typically in my case they are what is been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? Kirsty Williams AM: so all exams are cancelled but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that is a distinction that people need to be aware of That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications and they are points of movement in the education system So it is really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next whether that be university whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form into a college into an apprenticeship or into some workbased learning opportunities That is why we have to focus on those children because for them it is absolutely critical that we do We are at an advantage in Wales can I say ? Because of the nature of our examination system those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on Because we have kept our ASlevels we have got that data Because we have a GCSE system— Our year 11s if they are doing triple science they have already done 40 per cent of their paper so we are very fortunate Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system there is already lots and lots of externallyverified work that we can use alongside potentially teacher evaluation of students as well And I think that is really important We are starting from a better base than simply having none of that externallyverified data What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK So actually we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK So we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade So they can have real confidence Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation You will know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class on the whole do not do as well in terms of their assessment by their own teachers I do not know what their evidence is for that We also know of course that boys tend to do better in exams and girls tend to do better at coursework for whatever reason that is So just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you are talking about And of course you are right to say that because we have got some elements of external moderation here those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I think we are starting at a different base thank goodness So you are quite right As I said students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they are GCSE students Dare I say it some might even have done early entry So we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified So children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language So we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on I am sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades but I have to say in some ways I have to step back now because you would not expect me in normal circumstances to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that and how much percentage is allocated for that that would not be appropriate for a Minister My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable and I have confidence that that will be the case Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me One is obviously pupils are being asked to work at home as well now some of whom will be doing GCSE and Alevel courses So there is just a question generally from me— because we are encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales I guess in this modulation process It may be that your athome work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting Secondly you mentioned the ASlevels of course as being of value at the moment but we have got people in Year 12 who now will not be doing their ASs Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do ? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year for example ? Or is AS just off the table ? In which case how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course ? And then finally from me we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs and I think it is the Association of Accounting Technicians which is a lot of computerbased learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks Those are not Alevels or GCSEs I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment but are they off as well is the question I guess ? Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to ASlevels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated There are a range of options that could be used but again we will want to be thinking about student wellbeing fairness and equity in that regard and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that and that has not happened yet With regard to other types of qualifications as you will be aware the vast majority of BTECs is a modular continuallyassessed piece of work and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded but clearly those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and of course because of their nature there is even more evidence of continued assessment Huw I do not know if there is anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications Huw Morris: No I think you have covered most of it I do not have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification but we can look into that and come back to you Suzy Davies AM: Well I have just had a constituent ask so that would be very helpful And homeworking— —is that going to count towards the assessments overall assessments ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well potentially as I said I do not know the exact elements What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at because parents teachers and students will want to know that and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades Suzy Davies AM: That is great At least we covered it Thank you Minister—thank you Kirsty Lynne Neagle AM: And just before we move on have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly There have been discussions with universities and UCAS of course that this also has a bearing on One of the— And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we have factored in to making these decisions Those discussions with universities are ongoing are not they Huw ? Huw Morris: Yes So we have been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we have received every indication that the approach that is been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment","Kirsty believed that it was a devastating decision to have been taken. But they had done so on the very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. They were dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. Therefore, their best attempts would be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exam's day in August, but that had to be caveated by the fact that they were dealing with difficult circumstances. With regard to AS-levels, no final decision has been made for exactly how those students would be treated. There were a range of options that could be used. With regard to other types of qualifications, the vast majority of BTECs was a modular continually-assessed piece of work, and they would have every expectation that BTECs would be able to be awarded." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I think I raised it yesterday Kirsty but you were receiving loads of questions I would just ask for some further clarification about coursework because only 30 per cent of that is done Years 11 and 13 typically in my case they are what is been raised with me—do you have any advice for them ? Kirsty Williams AM: so all exams are cancelled but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that is a distinction that people need to be aware of That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications and they are points of movement in the education system So it is really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next whether that be university whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form into a college into an apprenticeship or into some workbased learning opportunities That is why we have to focus on those children because for them it is absolutely critical that we do We are at an advantage in Wales can I say ? Because of the nature of our examination system those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on Because we have kept our ASlevels we have got that data Because we have a GCSE system— Our year 11s if they are doing triple science they have already done 40 per cent of their paper so we are very fortunate Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system there is already lots and lots of externallyverified work that we can use alongside potentially teacher evaluation of students as well And I think that is really important We are starting from a better base than simply having none of that externallyverified data What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK So actually we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK So we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade So they can have real confidence","According to Kirsty, all exams were cancelled, but year 11 and 13 would be given a grade. That was because those years and those grades were gateway qualifications, and they were points of movement in the education system. Therefore, it was really important for those students that they were not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they would do next. Actually, they could make sure that their standards were maintained by actually having that modulation across that UK. So, the children could have real confidence." "Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation You will know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class on the whole do not do as well in terms of their assessment by their own teachers I do not know what their evidence is for that We also know of course that boys tend to do better in exams and girls tend to do better at coursework for whatever reason that is So just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you are talking about And of course you are right to say that because we have got some elements of external moderation here those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I think we are starting at a different base thank goodness So you are quite right As I said students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they are GCSE students Dare I say it some might even have done early entry So we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified So children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language So we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on I am sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades but I have to say in some ways I have to step back now because you would not expect me in normal circumstances to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that and how much percentage is allocated for that that would not be appropriate for a Minister My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable and I have confidence that that will be the case","According to Kirsty, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. Therefore, they had lots of pieces of work that would have been externally verified. They certainly would ensure that these concerns were passed on. Their job was to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what could be put in places was fair and was equitable, and they had the confidence that they would be the case." "Lynne Neagle AM: And just before we move on have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis ? Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly There have been discussions with universities and UCAS of course that this also has a bearing on One of the— And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we have factored in to making these decisions Those discussions with universities are ongoing are not they Huw ? Huw Morris: Yes So we have been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we have received every indication that the approach that is been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment",The answer was positive. The views of university and how university terms might be impacted was one of the ways and one of the reasons that they had factored in to making these decisions. The discussions with universities were ongoing. The conversations would continue as they work through the practicalities of how the gradings that were awarded were going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrollment. "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Well we have got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities Suzy Davies AM: Well it is a very general question really I appreciate you have already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion We are going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly which may impact on the answer you can give today but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well you are absolutely right As we often say in this committee universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them Colleges are in a similar position looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods and the Bill potentially does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute because I do not even know what the Bill says yet Kirsty Williams AM: Huw I do not know if there is anything you want to add Huw Morris: No—just to confirm what is been said and also to add in that independent training providers similarly autonomous like colleges and universities have been moving in the same direction We have been very impressed with the maturity and forwardplanning that is been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies We have got consistency in the approach and a common desire and investment in moving towards online support for students Suzy Davies AM: And there is still this safety net idea Certainly colleges have indicated as with schools that for the most vulnerable learners they will have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis Huw Morris: That is my understanding yes and again we have been in regular conversation with them about that My understanding is that they are going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions Suzy Davies AM: That is fair enough And presumably education maintenance allowance will still be paid Kirsty Williams AM: Yes Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled Suzy Davies AM: That is right You indicated that any Welsh Government supports going to stay whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I am doing my best but it is an absolute yes on the EMA There will be no disruption to EMA Suzy Davies AM: You might get some further questions on HE and FE Lynne Neagle AM: Yes We have got some further questions indeed from Helen Mary and then Hefin Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit ? Just further to EMA of course at the moment that has an attendance qualification does not it ? And you do not get your EMA if you do not turn up Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification does not apply anymore ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes They can not turn up if the institution is not open and that is not their fault Helen Mary Jones AM: No but that is something that is been a worry so that is really encouraging to hear Thinking about students in higher education can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal ? Is that the intention ? That is really good to hear And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances or is that something that is kind of ongoing at the moment ? Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company As I said we anticipate no disruption to— We do not anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that All I would say is just to remind people : people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to selfisolate or because they are reacting to socialdistancing messages from the Government So I think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best but if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus then I hope people will give them due consideration Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes that makes sense of course because we have been told that universities will not be able to entirely close because there will be students who can not go home— —overseas students for example What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students basic needs are met that there is still food shelter whatever they need ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well obviously universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances and every conversation that Huws been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of southeast Asia And so as the disease has progressed we have seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners Helen Mary Jones AM: That is really helpful And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees should the academic year not be completed ? Huw Morris: So as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online clearly there are lessons that will need to be taken on board There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed Failing those institutional mechanisms there is a UKwide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have So we are confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you had a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: No Mr Morris has answered my question Lynne Neagle AM: We have got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners I have got Helen Mary then Hefin","According to Kirsty, they had been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that had been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. They had got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students. There was still a safety net idea. Colleges had indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they would have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis. Any Welsh Government support going to stay, whatever the circumstances were. They would do their best to ensure that there would be no disruption to EMA." "Suzy Davies AM: Well it is a very general question really I appreciate you have already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion We are going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly which may impact on the answer you can give today but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well you are absolutely right As we often say in this committee universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them Colleges are in a similar position looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods and the Bill potentially does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute because I do not even know what the Bill says yet Kirsty Williams AM: Huw I do not know if there is anything you want to add Huw Morris: No—just to confirm what is been said and also to add in that independent training providers similarly autonomous like colleges and universities have been moving in the same direction We have been very impressed with the maturity and forwardplanning that is been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies We have got consistency in the approach and a common desire and investment in moving towards online support for students Suzy Davies AM: And there is still this safety net idea Certainly colleges have indicated as with schools that for the most vulnerable learners they will have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis Huw Morris: That is my understanding yes and again we have been in regular conversation with them about that My understanding is that they are going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions Suzy Davies AM: That is fair enough And presumably education maintenance allowance will still be paid Kirsty Williams AM: Yes Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled Suzy Davies AM: That is right You indicated that any Welsh Government supports going to stay whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I am doing my best but it is an absolute yes on the EMA There will be no disruption to EMA Suzy Davies AM: You might get some further questions on HE and FE","Kirsty believed that universities were autonomous institutions - a status that they guarded jealously and they would never want to question. Colleges were in a similar position, looking to do as much as they could to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, did give them more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector." "Helen Mary Jones AM: That is really good to hear And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances or is that something that is kind of ongoing at the moment ? Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company As I said we anticipate no disruption to— We do not anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that All I would say is just to remind people : people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to selfisolate or because they are reacting to socialdistancing messages from the Government So I think we just need to bear that in mind : that these organisations are doing their best but if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus then I hope people will give them due consideration Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes that makes sense of course because we have been told that universities will not be able to entirely close because there will be students who can not go home— —overseas students for example What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students basic needs are met that there is still food shelter whatever they need ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well obviously universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances and every conversation that Huws been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of southeast Asia And so as the disease has progressed we have seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners","Actually, they did not anticipate any change in the approach to students. Individual student circumstances could well change and their expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. There would undoubtedly in some cases be really typical challenges to service delivery, simply because organizations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they were reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. They instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions had campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease had progressed, they had seen lessons being learned from the support for students who were in isolation coming from there to the UK." "Helen Mary Jones AM: That is really helpful And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees should the academic year not be completed ? Huw Morris: So as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online clearly there are lessons that will need to be taken on board There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed Failing those institutional mechanisms there is a UKwide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have So we are confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy you had a supplementary Suzy Davies AM: No Mr Morris has answered my question Lynne Neagle AM: We have got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners I have got Helen Mary then Hefin","In Huw's opinion, there were lessons that would need to be taken on board. There were established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions was that they would complete their course of study. Therefore, they were confident that that system would be robust and would make sure that the students were getting a course of learning that met their needs." "Helen Mary Jones AM: I think Chair the Minister has already answered what the— But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and wellbeing of staff and learners across a range of educational settings or indeed young people who can not access educational settings what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and wellbeing might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes that is correct So our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think if we are honest we have to acknowledge is what we are looking at—we would expect school staff—wellbeing staff for instance in school—to be doing checkins—phone checkins potentially or FaceTime checkins with students just to keep in touch with them as we go forward We will be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so for instance Meic website—so looking to use a variety of platforms We do of course have the formal NHS counselling services I am concerned of course that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school We know that and we are just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor They are already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue as far as possible those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered and their worries I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people One of the reasons again that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we have needed and wanted to maintain Children will have worries about their own health they will have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves So we need to understand and I think we will also have to recognise that this support will have to be ongoing once we are back to normal and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience They are incredibly resilient and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole washing your hands and things like that than even adults have been So they are incredibly resilient but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just— ? Just a supplementary to that—you have mentioned already Kirsty the importance of youth services and particularly thinking voluntarily youth services you have given the commitment when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier that services that are partfunded by grants through the Welsh Government for example thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? Obviously local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open but in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it is not safe Kirsty Williams AM: —because it is not safe to do so I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying We will have our money back thank you very much Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy thank you Laughter Kirsty Williams AM: As I said we are facing unprecedented circumstances The normal rules of engagement have to change and those organisations we will need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal and we would not want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that Our call to the youth service is a call to arms though When we are trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for frontline staff children they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services— Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis Those traditional youth clubs because of austerity are not necessarily there anymore so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier","According to Kirsty, this was a really worrying time for children and young people. For schools and institutions, they had the formal NHS counselling services to the check-ins. They were concerned that for some children, their access to their counselling was via their school. They knew that and they were just double checking the capacity of online counseling that already existed - online counselling tools that children already used because they did not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor." "Helen Mary Jones AM: I think Chair the Minister has already answered what the— But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and wellbeing of staff and learners across a range of educational settings or indeed young people who can not access educational settings what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and wellbeing might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone ? Kirsty Williams AM: Yes that is correct So our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think if we are honest we have to acknowledge is what we are looking at—we would expect school staff—wellbeing staff for instance in school—to be doing checkins—phone checkins potentially or FaceTime checkins with students just to keep in touch with them as we go forward We will be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so for instance Meic website—so looking to use a variety of platforms We do of course have the formal NHS counselling services I am concerned of course that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school We know that and we are just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor They are already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue as far as possible those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered and their worries I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people One of the reasons again that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we have needed and wanted to maintain Children will have worries about their own health they will have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves So we need to understand and I think we will also have to recognise that this support will have to be ongoing once we are back to normal and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience They are incredibly resilient and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole washing your hands and things like that than even adults have been So they are incredibly resilient but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them","During a prolonged period of closure, they had to acknowledge was what they were looking at—they would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. They would be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that were available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms." "Kirsty Williams AM: Yes that is correct So our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think if we are honest we have to acknowledge is what we are looking at—we would expect school staff—wellbeing staff for instance in school—to be doing checkins—phone checkins potentially or FaceTime checkins with students just to keep in touch with them as we go forward We will be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so for instance Meic website—so looking to use a variety of platforms We do of course have the formal NHS counselling services I am concerned of course that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school We know that and we are just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they do not want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor They are already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue as far as possible those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered and their worries I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people One of the reasons again that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we have needed and wanted to maintain Children will have worries about their own health they will have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves So we need to understand and I think we will also have to recognise that this support will have to be ongoing once we are back to normal and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience They are incredibly resilient and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole washing your hands and things like that than even adults have been So they are incredibly resilient but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just— ? Just a supplementary to that—you have mentioned already Kirsty the importance of youth services and particularly thinking voluntarily youth services you have given the commitment when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier that services that are partfunded by grants through the Welsh Government for example thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? Obviously local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open but in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ?","Because that routine of going into school and that normality was one that they had needed and wanted to maintain. They needed to understand, and Kirsty thought that they would also have to recognize, that this support would have to be ongoing once they were back to normal, and they would have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who would have lived through this experience. They were incredibly resilient, and they had been the champions of some of our public health messages. They were so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been." "Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just— ? Just a supplementary to that—you have mentioned already Kirsty the importance of youth services and particularly thinking voluntarily youth services you have given the commitment when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier that services that are partfunded by grants through the Welsh Government for example thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well ? Obviously local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open but in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time ? Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public— Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it is not safe Kirsty Williams AM: —because it is not safe to do so I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying We will have our money back thank you very much Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy thank you Laughter Kirsty Williams AM: As I said we are facing unprecedented circumstances The normal rules of engagement have to change and those organisations we will need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal and we would not want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that Our call to the youth service is a call to arms though When we are trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for frontline staff children they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services— Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis Those traditional youth clubs because of austerity are not necessarily there anymore so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier","According to Kirsty, no formal decision had been made. They were facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules had to change and, those organizations, they would need them to be providing youth services for children when they were back to normal, and they wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Their call to the youth service was a call to arms, though." "Project Manager: Oh everybody is not ready let us go So we are here today to to have our first kickoff meeting about this new project we are going to tak to talk about in a few minutes so I will be Sebastian the Project Manager you are the User Interface: I am Michael I am the user interface designer Marketing: Hi I am Guillermo I am the Marketing Expert Industrial Designer: And I am Hemant the industrial designer Project Manager: very good Thanks for being here so let us have a look to the the agenda So we are going to go through this agenda and mainly first to to make to to be used to the tools available in this nice and smart meeting room we have here then we will go to the plans for project and have general discussions about it So the goal of this project is to developed a new remote control it should be original trendy and also user friendly As usual we will follow the the project method that we are using in the in our company It is in three step as you know First the functional design The seconds a conceptual design and then the detailed design During each step of each design we wi you will work s separately individually on your specific tasks and will m we will meet to to discuss and take decisions about what you have you have you did and what we will do next So first we have to to train ourself with all the the tools availables in the in this nice meeting room and particularly the the white board so we are going to go through the white board and take some s some notes or do some drawings So who want to start ? Mister","Project Manager introduced that the goal of this project was to develop a new remote control. It should be original, trendy, and also user friendly. The group would be going to follow the project method, which included three steps. First the functional design. The second's a conceptual design, and then the detailed design. During each step of each design, groupmates need to work individually on their specific tasks and will meet to discuss and take decisions about what they did and what they will do next." "User Interface: Ah well if no one else wants to so want me to draw my favourite animal Let us see Well I do not really have a favourite animal but Project Manager: You have one in mind ? User Interface: I think I have one in mind so I am going to about the spider because you can actually draw it pretty well in the corner of a white board The spider has a spider lives in a web and it has eight legs and it can move all about the web in two dimensions Unless it is a three dimensional web which y they have sometimes There are some spiders that live in like that have like kind of a a big ball of a of a web And the other thing is some spiders can actually fly like they have they let out like a stream of like the web building material but it is it acts like a parachute so they can actually kind of go and find new build a new web somewhere else So I think they did this in in Charlottes Web that movie that little well it is actually a book first but at the end all the the spiders kind of flew away So that is my animal Project Manager: Th thank you Very interesting Guillermo you want to ? Marketing: kay I do not know why but when I was a child I I wanted to be a a panther Industrial Designer: But do not you think it is very difficult to draw a panther ? Project Manager: It would be very funny for us Industrial Designer: So bad I do not like it Marketing: it is a friendly panther User Interface: Maybe it is happy because it just ate someone Marketing: Actually honestly I I I do not know what is what is his it is be behaviour I do not know if if it is the male who who hunts or it is the female I I I have watched that lions di did not hunt it is the the female lions who who hunt so but I like it because it is fast and it is black as well so it can he it can hide itself very easily and it is it is it looks like powerful strong I do not know I I watch a a film about a black panther when I was a child and I was in that age when everything was shocking me a lot User Interface: So you do not like pink panthers ? Industrial Designer: Oh Thanks This lapel is coming out once in a while It is not very strong So not the favourite animal but I think I will draw elephant I will try to draw elephant It is a problem thanks so elephant goes like this and then it has four feet I do not know whether there is any dist there should be any distance or not but I think this is the easiest And then we have it is trunk And yep something like this and sometimes they have a hump It seems that elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking So when they walk wherever they are going to put their first feet the second feet will always be When they will come to that position the second the third feet will be there That is the way they walk And that is very peculiar about them None of the other animals walk like this And they are very useful to human beings At least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something or when they had to carry huge loads from one place to another elephants were very useful And they are found in usually the warm countries And they are the biggest terrestrial animal That is what I know about them So that is what I wanted to tell about elephants User Interface: So is this an Indian or an African elephant because you have not drawn the ears ? Industrial Designer: There are two kind of they are very different Indian and African elephants So Indian elephant is having one bump I think and the African have two And then there is a difference in the trunk of the animals these elephants who are Indian and So at some for some elephants it is the trunk is having one Do we have some message there ? Project Manager: Yes We have to I have to catch you sorry We have to to go through the meeting User Interface: We can discuss that offline Project Manager: we will discuss a f a fly or do we will do another meeting abo on elephants","Firstly, User Interface drew a spider because he thought it was easy to draw in the corner of a whiteboard and spiders can move all about the web in two dimensions. Marketing drew a friendly panther because it was fast and black, so it could hide very easily. And it looked powerful and strong. Industrial Designer drew an elephant because it's peculiar about the way they walk. And they are the biggest terrestrial animal." "Project Manager: so another important part of the project is about money and about so about finances So we should target selling price of twentyfive Euro for this remote control and we have which which would generate a profit of of fifty million Euros And we should target the inter an international market User Interface: So could I just ask one question is this a standalone unit that we are going to be selling ? So it is going to be you already have a TV but you are buying an extra remote control for it or something ? Project Manager: O this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly so let us go to it So we should decide which kind of remote control we want to we want to we want to go Should be should should it be specific remote control to some specific device ? Should it be a universal one ? And etcetera So so I am waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go User Interface: well so it seems the the first thing that they have kind of specified is the price like based on how much profit we want to make which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do not know what the the product is yet but I guess if that is if that is the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so I guess we are going to need to find out what is actually you know what people ar are willing to pay for what kind of product they are expecting for twentyfive Euro because it seems quite a lot for a remote control Project Manager: I think this is more a job to our So it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and in which direction we should go So we need to close the meeting we will have a new meeting soon and so the work every every of you ha have t d to do So you have to work on the on the working design you have to work on the technical functions and you have to work on us user requirements specs alright ? you will receive some information by emails i as usual Thanks for coming today",Project Manager mentioned that they should target a selling price of twenty-five Euro for this remote control which would generate a profit of fifty million Euros. And they should target the international market. User Interface supplemented that they need to find out what people are willing to pay for and what kind of product they're expecting for twenty-five Euro. "Project Manager: Th thank you Very interesting Guillermo you want to ? Marketing: kay I do not know why but when I was a child I I wanted to be a a panther Industrial Designer: But do not you think it is very difficult to draw a panther ? Project Manager: It would be very funny for us Industrial Designer: So bad I do not like it Marketing: it is a friendly panther User Interface: Maybe it is happy because it just ate someone","Marketing said when he was a child, he wanted to be a panther. Industrial Designer thought it would be difficult to draw a panther. Project Manager thought it would be very funny for them to see Marketing drawing a panther but Industrial Designer didn't like it. So Marketing said it was gonna be a friendly panther. User Interface supplemented that maybe it was happy because it just ate someone." "Industrial Designer: I will try to draw elephant It is a problem thanks so elephant goes like this and then it has four feet I do not know whether there is any dist there should be any distance or not but I think this is the easiest And then we have it is trunk And yep something like this and sometimes they have a hump It seems that elephants are pretty friendly and they they have one very important way a different way of walking So when they walk wherever they are going to put their first feet the second feet will always be When they will come to that position the second the third feet will be there That is the way they walk And that is very peculiar about them None of the other animals walk like this And they are very useful to human beings At least few few hundred years ago when there was no means of transportations or something or when they had to carry huge loads from one place to another elephants were very useful And they are found in usually the warm countries And they are the biggest terrestrial animal That is what I know about them So that is what I wanted to tell about elephants User Interface: So is this an Indian or an African elephant because you have not drawn the ears ? Industrial Designer: There are two kind of they are very different Indian and African elephants So Indian elephant is having one bump I think and the African have two And then there is a difference in the trunk of the animals these elephants who are Indian and So at some for some elephants it is the trunk is having one Do we have some message there ? Project Manager: Yes We have to I have to catch you sorry We have to to go through the meeting User Interface: We can discuss that offline Project Manager: we will discuss a f a fly or do we will do another meeting abo on elephants","Industrial Designer gave a very detailed introduction to his drawing of an elephant, including the difference between Indian and African elephants. So Project Manager interrupted him and told group mates they would move on to the next topic because they had limited time for discussion. In addition, Project Manager said there would be an update meeting about elephants next time." "Project Manager: so another important part of the project is about money and about so about finances So we should target selling price of twentyfive Euro for this remote control and we have which which would generate a profit of of fifty million Euros And we should target the inter an international market User Interface: So could I just ask one question is this a standalone unit that we are going to be selling ? So it is going to be you already have a TV but you are buying an extra remote control for it or something ? Project Manager: O this is the next topic we have to discuss exactly so let us go to it So we should decide which kind of remote control we want to we want to we want to go Should be should should it be specific remote control to some specific device ? Should it be a universal one ? And etcetera So so I am waiting for your for your inputs very quickly because we have only three three minutes to go User Interface: well so it seems the the first thing that they have kind of specified is the price like based on how much profit we want to make which seems to a kind of a little strange if we do not know what the the product is yet but I guess if that is if that is the requirement that we need to to design the the product to actually fit that that price bracket so I guess we are going to need to find out what is actually you know what people ar are willing to pay for what kind of product they are expecting for twentyfive Euro because it seems quite a lot for a remote control Project Manager: I think this is more a job to our So it should be the topic of maybe of the next meeting just to to have an overview of this and in which direction we should go","User Interface asked a question that whether it would be a stand-alone unit that they are going to be selling. So Project Manager answered that they should decide which kind of remote control they want to go, if it should be a specific remote control to some specific device, or if it should be a universal one. User Interface responded that they need to design the product to fit the expecting twenty-five Euro based on the requirement. Project Manager agreed and invited group mates to input ideas in the next meeting." "Project Manager: You all saw the newsflash ? Or you got the same message ? Marketing: I I just saw it one minute ago Industrial Designer: I did not see it yet I think User Interface: Newsflash ? D did I miss something ? Project Manager: I received an email so I thought I I can not mail you so I thought I would just drop it in the folder but Industrial Designer: Hey what is wrong with my computer ? Marketing: Mm that is my presentation Project Manager: Woah I kind of opened it User Interface: I think you have to change your desktop Project Manager: No no no Yes yes yes User Interface: computer is not functioning ? Industrial Designer: Where do I find this ? I am not so g display huh ? User Interface: Mm I am not sure I Marketing: You read the newsflash ? Project Manager: Kay Can we get started Industrial Designer: No what was it about ? Project Manager: or is there some pressing issue ? Industrial Designer: my computer is not functioning properly Project Manager: Did you plug in the power cable when you come back ? Industrial Designer: No but my screen is reduced in size Marketing: So it does not draw the attention away User Interface: I made my own map Industrial Designer: No not this but the task Project Manager: You have Playstation also ? Industrial Designer: No that is No I just flapped it closed it took it here and then this happened Ah where was it ? In settings ? Alright Thank you Do you guys like your tasks ? I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was going to do and then a couple of minutes before this I get my function you know the information that I need User Interface: wa wa you actually But it it is not clear what you have to to to type type in your presentation Marketing: I I had a whole idea and then just was typing it and then oh I have to do that so switch Industrial Designer: exactly This presentation is mainly based on my own ideas because I had not time to intergrate tha the information yet so Project Manager: So there we are again this is the agenda we have three presentations I heard really So who wants to start ? Marketing: We have to start it right away ? Alright I am going to talk about functional requirements Well some research has be done has been done observing of one hundred subjects in the usability lab using a remote control and they also filled in a questionnaire The findings were well you can see them for yourself They disliked the lookandfeel of current remotes controls Users think they are ugly they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users So they they d they do not match what they want to have on it they are often lost somewhere in the room it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control And they are bad for RSI I do not know how a user can reach that but there is also was also some research on the most relevant and and and irrelevant f functions most irrelevant and less used were audio settings mono stereo pitch bass screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that but they are used I mean the Industrial Designer: So they do need to be in the Marketing: they do need to be on the on the remote control I mean if you can not control the the sound settings I mean if you dislike a very loud bass or something you you need to change that Industrial Designer: By the way my TV does not have an equ equaliser but Marketing: We c we c I mean w we can not but we we can leave them away most relevant most used functions they speak for themselves I guess power button channel volume selection teletext but we can skip that because I saw the newsflash and teletext is so outdated that it it is i should not be used any more in the future channel settings so for programming your channels in in the right order Industrial Designer: By the way where did you guys get that newsflash from ? I did not get anything Project Manager: Not by mail I receiv the mail but you do not So User Interface: But you you have got more information than Marketing: No so it is a text file n in the project folder So teletext can be skipped Project Manager: That is in the presentation so Marketing: there was some research on new features in a remote control about an LCD screen and speech recognition Well we got an update for the for the audience Or the the the targeted group So it is above forty I guess The new product ? Or below because that is pretty relevant I thought I read a Project Manager: Our current customers are in the age group forty plus And the new product should reach new markets which is the customers below forty User Interface: But where did you get that information ? Project Manager: That is in a newsflash Marketing: that is that is in the newsfla that is a good to know because you see see a clear distinction between the age groups concerning the features I mean above forty people are not so interested not so interested in a screen or speech recognition but below that age they they pretty much are So I think we can build that in well we can skip this part as well because I thought I read above forty so we could skip the features but we just have to build them in because they find it very interesting well we have to keep all the classic functions but make the buttons as userfriendly as possible and and also there is so not only the design of the bus buttons but o how you can push them and stuff like that So the physical aspect of it And I think and certainly for for the for the lower age groups nice design which does not make the remote control in your room It is it is actually a part of your interior of of your design in your room So it is the people can say well what is that well that is my remote control so it is d it has to look nice and feel nice and and have all the functions that Project Manager: But it also needs to have corporate identity Marketing: so the the logo has to be present and the colours as well Project Manager: So we can not change much of that Marketing: so but I I do not think that is that is a problem because the thing has to have a colour anyway and most of the times there is a brand present on it So I think that is not going to going to affect it very very much Well that are the the consequences on a marketing part Project Manager: It is open already so you can use to User Interface: Oh What is this ? Project Manager: You pressed alt F four ? User Interface: No no no I pressed the mouse button Industrial Designer: It is th that is the selfdestruct button Project Manager: maybe you can do it from your computer so talk us through it User Interface: if you all go stand around this one is the the the advanced one with a lot of options and functions and buttons I think we have to to combine them And merge the best functions of all examples but the the age is under forty ? Marketing: and and and marketing research stated that that that kind of users are not afraid of of a lot of functions User Interface: So we so so we have the option for more functions Marketing: So not not too much but Industrial Designer: And we do have to integrate the screen and the the speech User Interface: this this one we can remove for kids It is just only for adults so we can use some advanced options But Marketing: from age of sixteen so User Interface: but I prefer we we use the the basic options We have to to make them very easy so for just zapping around the channels you can just push one button But if you want to to use your your video recorder or something else you should use use an an advanced option Marketing: but the the newsflash also stated that it should control only one device only your television Project Manager: So n it is very easy Marketing: So there are not extra options in this case but User Interface: We have to make it fashionable Like you said before the basic functions only use a extra function if they are really needed Project Manager: so maybe you can hide them or something Marketing: well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options you can put that in the screen Project Manager: you make a screen menu or something Marketing: And the and the screen menu to to to to do that and then the basic function just on the device itself So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen with a clear menu Project Manager: and the other oth other functionality is the screen What does the screen do ? User Interface: did I break it ? Project Manager: So what does the screen do ? They said they needed it but what does it do ? What do they want with the screen ? User Interface: For for the advanced functions I think Project Manager: that is what we make it up Marketing: well it it did not Project Manager: So but what did the marketing Marketing: it did not say what they want to do with the screen Well I my guess is it is it is pretty handy for advanced advanced functions Project Manager: it is handy With no predefined User Interface: Like searching for channels and Marketing: searching for channels programming them Industrial Designer: We have your oh never mind User Interface: That is I am al I am almost finished so the we have to to to watch out for the i if we make it f very fashionable it it the functional functionality will go down So we have to make a compromise between functionality and fashional fashionable Now that that was was the end Industrial Designer: Well my presentation is a bit sucky Marketing: Well you can improvise right ? Project Manager: which one is it ? Technical functions ? Industrial Designer: I think that would be it then Project Manager: You did not put it in ? Or Marketing: So we we can go for Project Manager: it is not really English Industrial Designer: Let me check I know Project Manager: kick off Oh working design I got it Marketing: So we can go for the lookandfeel of the the left example and then a screen on top of it Industrial Designer: Alright how do I skip pages ? Alright well I was working on this before I got my information So I was just working off the top of my head and using my colin common knowledge about remote controls And well the info on the website which came too late so I did not really know what kind of functions we had to put into it yet So this is basically an overview of what we discussed in our last meeting Those were my starting points I was working on a s on a schedule and I was supposed to do it like this But then the information came and it was kind of exact with all the steps in the remote control that I had to follow so I was trying to organise them for myself the design a the actual design but I never came around to do that So I am not really sure what I am supposed to say about it I mean everything speaks for itself I guess Mean you press a button the it tru goes it sends a signal to a chip which translates it into infrared signal of certin spatial frequencies And or temporal fr frequencies actually And then through a transformer it the signal gets boosted and then sent to the to the receiver on the TV and the TV will translate it into a function well this was actually all I got around to do I mean I do not know if I am too slow for this stuff but","According to the Marketing, the research finding showed that the current users are older than forty, which is to say that they have to aim the consumers at below forty as long as they want a new market. As for the User Interface, he thought an extra function was needed to hide all the features and display a clear menu. Of course, some fashionable functions would also be welcomed. Then the group came to realize that it would be really hard to compromise between the functions and the fashion." "Marketing: Alright I am going to talk about functional requirements Well some research has be done has been done observing of one hundred subjects in the usability lab using a remote control and they also filled in a questionnaire The findings were well you can see them for yourself They disliked the lookandfeel of current remotes controls Users think they are ugly they do not match the the operating behaviour of the users So they they d they do not match what they want to have on it they are often lost somewhere in the room it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control And they are bad for RSI I do not know how a user can reach that but there is also was also some research on the most relevant and and and irrelevant f functions most irrelevant and less used were audio settings mono stereo pitch bass screen settings for brightness and colour and stuff like that but they are used I mean the Industrial Designer: So they do need to be in the Marketing: they do need to be on the on the remote control I mean if you can not control the the sound settings I mean if you dislike a very loud bass or something you you need to change that Industrial Designer: By the way my TV does not have an equ equaliser but Marketing: We c we c I mean w we can not","As per his research, the Marketing found that the existing remote controls were not satisfactory in terms of their appearance and feel. In addition, some remote controls were not easy to find and very hard to master. What was also worth mentioning was that some details like the brightness of the screen and the colors needed improvement as well." "User Interface: the basic functions only use a extra function if they are really needed Project Manager: so maybe you can hide them or something Marketing: well what what we can do with the screen is is all the the configuration options you can put that in the screen Project Manager: you make a screen menu or something Marketing: And the and the screen menu to to to to do that and then the basic function just on the device itself So it looks very simple and all the advanced features are hidden in the screen with a clear menu Project Manager: and the other oth other functionality is the screen",The User Interface put forward to add an extra function to the remote control to make it be able to hide some features and display a clear menu. The Project Manager was in favor of this design for that it would be easy to find those really essential functions on the menu more easily. "User Interface: shou should we make a list of the of all the functions we want Marketing: we want to incorporate in into it Project Manager: Kay for those that did not see yet the basic new requirements of the management were no teletext only for TV it should be designed for a use g group below forty but I do not think it is w wrong if we can target the current customer group as well And the corporate identity should be clear in the design of the remote control And we have to decide on the functions and on the let us see what was it the target group We have to make be clear what that is Marketing: because it says below forty I mean Project Manager: so I think it is easy but Marketing: I guess that is that is the tar or male and female User Interface: But it is it is also for children or just Project Manager: it is below forty so we can decide where to Marketing: six the marketing research started on s on the age of sixteen Sixteen to twenty five twenty five to thirty five thirty five to forty five something like that Project Manager: But we need an lower level which to s focus Marketing: How do you mean ? Project Manager: So is it from sixteen to forty ? Is it from twenty to forty ? Is it from thirty ? Marketing: Well I I guess people of sixteen are are quite used to technology So they they adapt to it pretty soon I guess User Interface: And if we have a larger public we have more options to to sell our product Industrial Designer: so what we might want to do is cust I have customised the screen functions if you know what I mean The younger users are more acquainted with these kind of machines so they can use more advanced functions But maybe elderly people do not understand it so well so they need a simpler remote And that you can choose what the design displays or wha whatever User Interface: that is that is why I wanted to to make two different groups of functions The the simple functions for for the the whole public and the the advanced options for the younger people who are more experienced with Marketing: But all incorporated in the screen or or just on the remote itself ? User Interface: Na I w I should put the the the extra advanced options on the onto the onscreen display Marketing: like like you have a visual of the of the brightness with with a kind of sliding bar and a bus and and stuff like that for sound and and vis and and visuals ? Project Manager: So is you should have a menu for all the the functions you do not use regular and which are Marketing: you can make a if you make a drawing blacks And draw it very big Project Manager: no it does not have line control so Marketing: well this is basically it is alright the remote ? well usually the power button is on top I guess Project Manager: Basic Is on top Which should be easy easily reached with the thumb Marketing: so it should fit right in into your hand User Interface: L left top or right top ? Project Manager: T I s should said right Marketing: I most people are righthanded so maybe lefthanded special addition but If you put it like like here Or something I do not know then you could put a screen like on a mobile phone also on top I guess User Interface: but if you are using the the normal functions the the basic functions you normally press them on the you Project Manager: Do the also with the thumb So it should be a little bit longer so that you can put your thumb also reach the middle Or you should screen at the bottom and then you can see it very clearly Marketing: so y you have you have it in your hand and the screen is below and the buttons are in the middle Project Manager: You you need to be able to hold it so Marketing: for example if you put the screen here it is more about the functions now than the than the layout Project Manager: that is true Layout That is for the Marketing: Does not work too well It is it is bent Project Manager: I can not help it Marketing: you get it for example if y if you put all the Project Manager: You want the normal piece of paper ? And you have a pen ? Industrial Designer: And might be easier huh ? Marketing: Maybe this kind of works Like if you have like ten buttons for for all the for all the channels and here one for for Project Manager: And the for flipping up and down Marketing: that that usually like here here here here So you have up and down for the for the channels and left and right for the volume Project Manager: And left to right And those can also be used for the menu Industrial Designer: exactly I thought but this is really your department that we need just the functional display and four cursors Project Manager: but this is function so if you can use them for multiple things Marketing: most of the time you have one button in the middle It says menu and then if you press it you the screen gets activated and then you can use these buttons to scroll up and down and left and right to go into functon mo most of the time this menu button is also like to to confirm a a kind of action So you scroll into it You select a function like v like bass You just adjust it with these two buttons Then to confirm and then on on each on each screen there is there should be an option to go back to a to a upper level And then finally say exit Or or one button to exit it in one time I do not know that is not really my department User Interface: And do we need a a logo on our remote control or Marketing: That is more your your department to to to But it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top Project Manager: but that depends on where you put the screen But it is essential that there is a screen Marketing: I mean the position of the screen is also more essential than I mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there Project Manager: And for the speech recognition part if we want to incorporate that we need a microphone Marketing: But so it should be I mean if you have it in your hand here should be on top somewhere maybe Industrial Designer: Why did we want to put the display in the bottom ? Project Manager: No that is not s sure so User Interface: may maybe because you are Industrial Designer: Because if you use the functions your hand will block the display User Interface: but only for the basic functi if you are going to use the advanced option you are going to press the the menu button and then Marketing: I mean a screen on top looks more lo logical to me Also because people use m mobile phones and they also have the screen on top Project Manager: they are used to it Marketing: So you you just have to reach a little bit for the power button I mean if you grab it Industrial Designer: On once it is on it is on You do not need the power button Marketing: But most most of the times if a if if a TVs on standby people just press a channel to put it on User Interface: we put it on top Marketing: So we put this on top and then make the corporate logo like over here RR And j and the microphone I mean it can be very small If you look at your mobile phones are some stripes little little holes Industrial Designer: Maybe on the top or even on the side Marketing: maybe on the side I mean if the if the microphone is good Project Manager: but then it is possible that you cover it with your hand so Marketing: So on the on the top is better Project Manager: I think that top is the best option Industrial Designer: But if you if you hold the ma the remote like this if you put it on the top on the side I do not know Should be able to work Project Manager: Depends on the sensitivity of the microphone but I think that is Industrial Designer: Never mind Can we leave this up to you ? Marketing: it does not matter that much So but the screen is on top ? Which functions did we have left ? I mean this is basically numbers volume channel up and down Project Manager: Volume Up Channel up and down and the control of the advanced options So maybe it we should decide what advanced options we want to put in the LCD screen Marketing: That is that is a good one Industrial Designer: so we we needed to integrate the sound and and image options right ? so we need kind of an equaliser If you Marketing: Equaliser So if you have sound But not too advanced I mean most TVs use only treble and bass User Interface: it it is just a remote control so Industrial Designer: treble middl middle bass or something Project Manager: They are not used often so Marketing: It is pretty hard to write Mm but you have sound ? oh y you have digital better write it down over there Project Manager: Of course I am just a secretary Marketing: sound and then within sound I guess treble and bass ? Industrial Designer: the mono stereo option ? And there there was something else also Marketing: Pitch But pitch is not that that is the the height of the tone Industrial Designer: The fr the frequency of the tones Marketing: wh why would you use that ? Industrial Designer: is not that that depends on the on the signal of the of what program you are watching Marketing: If people like talk like Project Manager: And also the tuning part ? programming So channel programming ? Marketing: so we have sound ? Channel programming Industrial Designer: And in the functionality of the no no of the remote do do we want the buttons to make sound when you press them ? As a confirmation or whatever you know ? Marketing: I think it g it gets annoying I mean most mobile phones used that in the beginning but User Interface: We we could make an option for it but you can disable s Industrial Designer: Under the a advanced option menu you can put those things User Interface: But the the television itself has also the the options brightness and screen colour etcetera So Marketing: but people do not want to sit on their knees on their knees in front of their television with only three buttons then it is very hard to y contrast and brightness ? those are the most used I guess If you look at your monitor Project Manager: And the others were in your presentation right ? So I can just copy those ? Marketing: Well well I guess that these were the only ones I guess Industrial Designer: But so we have we have TV options which is all this Marketing: I will look it up Project Manager: the button options and the LCD options Industrial Designer: The sound sound and image And you have in that the indeed the remote control options So we need two menus kind of thing Project Manager: you have basically a button menu which you can use directly according to the old principle And the LCD options are activated by some some software options that is communicates with the infrared decoder Marketing: with the chip and then I mean Project Manager: So you You have an additional processor and and software part Marketing: Well we have power button whether that is present Channel volume selection present numbers present a audio settings mono stereo pitch bass treble Screen settings brightness and colour Project Manager: L s Colour I I call it contrast I make it c colour Marketing: and what you say channel settings or channel programming ? So you you have an option to to start scanning all the frequencies and when it encounters one well it shows on your TV And then you can and then you can select a number in your remote on which you want to save it Project Manager: so I have g channel program is autoseek ? Marketing: Well most TVs automatically display the name which they get through the cable Project Manager: Oh they get automatic names Marketing: So you only have to choose the position on your It only has to match the the channel frequency on your TV with with the with the position on your TV and and so your remote Project Manager: but can you also say I want f Veronica on the channel number five or Marketing: If you already programmed it If you want to move it that should be possible too Project Manager: How do you call that ? Marketing: how do you call that ? Mm ? Wait you you should be able to to browse through a list or something which w displays all the all the values all the channels which are possible I mean like one to f thirty of or ninety or whatever Just browse through it and then in some kind of way see if it if it if it is programmed Project Manager: S swap channels ? Can I call it that ? Swaps good option other functions ? Marketing: So you most of the time if you if you swap it S let us say for example you have RTL five on on channel five And Veronica on channel eight and you want to move Veronica to channel five most of the times you override the previous the previous one Project Manager: Mmhmm Well that is s up to Mister User Interface Designer Marketing: It is it is pretty I mean you have to look on on the menu Industrial Designer: He only has to figure out how it has to look Project Manager: but also which buttons you have to press to get a certain result ? And the working design was to specify how ph the physical interation between the components was as I believe Industrial Designer: But You did your homework But Marketing: Or or is it too hard to to ju to just do it all on your remote ? To programme the channels ? Project Manager: No I do not think so Industrial Designer: No no It should be able to do any remote Project Manager: But I think the communication with the television is difficult But that is not our part We do not have to design a protocol so Marketing: That is true That is true","To maximize the satisfaction of the users, the first thing should be confirmed is that the power button should be put on the right top where it can be reached with a thumb easily. Then like all the remote controls, they should have up and down for the channels and left and right for the volume. Besides, the button for the screen brightness was also important. To make their remote control unique, the User Interface proposed to add their logo on it." "Marketing: alright the remote ? well usually the power button is on top I guess Project Manager: Basic Is on top Which should be easy easily reached with the thumb Marketing: so it should fit right in into your hand User Interface: L left top or right top ? Project Manager: T I s should said right Marketing: I most people are righthanded so maybe lefthanded special addition but","During their discussion of the button layout, the first agreement they achieved was that the power button should be put on the top of the remote control. Then the Project Manager proposed to put it on the right that most people are right-handed, however, considering that a few would be left-handed, the Marketing put forward to design some special additions to meet such need." "User Interface: And do we need a a logo on our remote control or Marketing: That is more your your department to to to But it should be if the screen is here then the logo should be like on on top Project Manager: but that depends on where you put the screen But it is essential that there is a screen Marketing: I mean the position of the screen is also more essential than I mean we we look where we have space left and then put the logo over there Project Manager: And for the speech recognition part if we want to incorporate that we need a microphone Marketing: But so it should be I mean if you have it in your hand here should be on top somewhere maybe","The User Interface proposed to add a logo on the remote control, but the problem came that it did matter much how to locate the screen and the logo. At first the Marketing planned to put the logo on the left top but then he elaborated himself that the logo should be the last one to be considered that it would be put wherever space was left, instead of letting the logo decide where the screen would be put." "Grad B: And so what a s you s let s say a simple parse from a s from an utterance will not really give us is what the person actually wants Does he want to go there to see it ? Does he want to go there now ? Later ? How does the person want to go there ? Is that person more likely to want to walk there ? Walk a scenic route ? and so forth There are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things And we are constructing and then we ve identified more or less the extra linguistic parameters that may f play a role Information related to the user and information related to the situation And we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance That s part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just want to go there to look at it And so the idea is to construct suitable interfaces and a belief net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention pause was And then enrich or augment the M three L structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance So if it can make a good suggestion `` Hey ! `` you know `` that person does not want to enter That person just wants to take a picture `` cuz he just bought film or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` Or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth These ah these types of these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the M three L structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved And if the action planner does something with it great If not you know then that s also something that we can not really at least we comment want to offer the extra information We do not really we are not too worried I mean t s Ultimately if you have if you can offer that information somebody s going to s do something with it sooner or later That s sort of part of our belief Grad E: What was he saying ? Grad B: for example right now I know the GIS from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints So that s a functionality that does not exist yet to do that dynamically but if we can offer it that distinction maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it Surely nobody s going to go ahead and implement it if it s never going to be used so What have I forgotten about ? Oh how we do it Professor F: No no It s a good time to pause I s I see pause questions on peoples faces so why do not let s let s Let s hear PhD A: Well the obvious one would be if if you envision this as a module within SmartKom where exactly would that Sit ? That s the d Grad B: so far I ve thought of it as sort of adding it onto the modeler knowledge module So this is one that already adds additional information to the but it could sit anywhere in the attention recognition I mean basically this is what attention recognition literally sort of can PhD A: Well it s supposed to do Professor F: That s what it should do PhD A: Well f from my understanding of what the people at Phillips were originally trying to do does not seem to quite fit into SmartKom currently so what they are really doing right now is only selecting among the alternatives the hypotheses that they are given enriched by the domain knowledge and the discourse modeler and so on So if if this is additional information that could be merged in by them And then it would be available to action planning and and others Professor F: let s let s That w OK that was one question Is there other other things that cuz pause we want to not Pa pass over any pause you know questions or concerns that you have PhD A: Well there are there are two levels of of giving an answer and I guess on both levels I do not have any further questions the the two levels will be as far as I m concerned as pause standing here for the generation module and the other is is my understanding of what SmartKom is supposed to be and I I think that fits in perfectly Professor F: So well let me Let me s pause expand on that a little bit from the point of view of the generation So the idea is that we ve actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig Robert did not bring it today but there s a a belief net which is There s a first cut at a belief net that that does not it is not fully instantiated and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are not there But we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space and the things that influence them So one of the decisions is what we call this AVE thing Do you want to access view or enter a thing So that s a a discrete decision There are only three possibilities and the what one would like is for this knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner But th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief net is equivocal so that it does not say that one of these is much more probable than the other then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want Alright ? Now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that For the debugging we will probably just have a a drop down menu and the while you are debugging you will just OK But for a full system then one might very well formulate a query give it to the dialogue planner and say this you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? Or whatever it whatever that might be So that s under that model then There would be a a loop in which this thing would formulate a query presumably give it to you That would get expressed and then hopefully you know you would get an answer pause back And that would of course the answer would have to be parsed OK so pause th pause that We probably will not do this early on because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that But While we are on the subject I just wanted to give you a sort of head s up that it could be that some months from now we said `` OK we are now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions","It was decided that SmartKom's action plans should be represented in XML as a state transition network. It was proposed that the term 'dialogue planner' should replace 'dialogue manager'. Prolog will be phased out completely and replaced by Java code. The dialogue manager must be capable of changing states, i.e. go from being event driven to answering a question from a planning module." "Professor F: So the idea is that we ve actually got this all laid out an and we could show it to you ig Robert did not bring it today but there s a a belief net which is There s a first cut at a belief net that that does not it is not fully instantiated and in particular some of the the combination rules and ways of getting the the conditional probabilities are not there But we believe that we have laid out the fundamental decisions in this little space and the things that influence them So one of the decisions is what we call this AVE thing Do you want to access view or enter a thing So that s a a discrete decision There are only three possibilities and the what one would like is for this knowledge modeling module to add which of those it is and give it to the planner But th the current design suggests that if it seems to be an important decision and if the belief net is equivocal so that it does not say that one of these is much more probable than the other then an option is to go back and ask for the information you want Alright ? Now there are two ways one can go a imagine doing that For the debugging we will probably just have a a drop down menu and the while you are debugging you will just OK But for a full system then one might very well formulate a query give it to the dialogue planner and say this you know ar are you know you are you planning to enter ? Or whatever it whatever that might be So that s under that model then There would be a a loop in which this thing would formulate a query presumably give it to you That would get expressed and then hopefully you know you would get an answer pause back And that would of course the answer would have to be parsed OK so pause th pause that We probably will not do this early on because the current focus is more on the decision making and stuff like that But While we are on the subject I just wanted to give you a sort of head s up that it could be that some months from now we said `` OK we are now ready to try to close that loop `` in terms of querying about some of these decisions PhD A: Yep So my suggestion then is that you look into the currently ongoing discussion about how the action plans are supposed to look like And they are currently Agreeing or or in the process of agreeing on an X M L ification of something like a state transition network of how dialogues would proceed and The these transition networks will be what the action planner interprets in a sense Professor F: D did you know this Robert ? Grad B: Michael is doing that right ? PhD A: Well Marcus Lerkult is actually implementing that stuff and Marcus and Michael together are leading the discussion there Professor F: So we ha we have to get in on that","SmartKom should feature a well defined core interface, with domain-specific information kept external. A syntactic analysis component that performs chunk parsing will be added to the system." "Grad B: and there is a tower and it s called Powder Tower and so What will you parse out of that sentence ? Probably something that we specified in M three L that is comment `` action go to whatever domain object whatever Powder Tower `` And maybe some model will tell us some GPS module in the mobile scenario where the person is at the moment And we ve sort of gone through that once before in the Deep Mail project and we noticed that first of all what are I should ve brought some slides but what our So here s the tower Think of this as a two dimensional representation of the tower And our system led people here to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower There is no entrance there but it just happens to be the closest point of the road network to the geometric center Because that s how the algorithm works So we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then it found actually the way to the entrance which was now the closest point of the road network to OK geometric center But what we actually observed in Heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually do not want to enter because it s not really interesting They want to go to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture And so what a s you s let s say a simple parse from a s from an utterance will not really give us is what the person actually wants Does he want to go there to see it ? Does he want to go there now ? Later ? How does the person want to go there ? Is that person more likely to want to walk there ? Walk a scenic route ? and so forth There are all kinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things And we are constructing and then we ve identified more or less the extra linguistic parameters that may f play a role Information related to the user and information related to the situation And we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance That s part of why we implant these intentions in the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just want to go there to look at it And so the idea is to construct suitable interfaces and a belief net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlying intention pause was And then enrich or augment the M three L structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance So if it can make a good suggestion `` Hey ! `` you know `` that person does not want to enter That person just wants to take a picture `` cuz he just bought film or `` that person wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before `` Or `` that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usually do inside of buildings `` and so forth These ah these types of these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the M three L structure in an sort of subfield that we have reserved And if the action planner does something with it great If not you know then that s also something that we can not really at least we comment want to offer the extra information We do not really we are not too worried I mean t s Ultimately if you have if you can offer that information somebody s going to s do something with it sooner or later That s sort of part of our belief Grad E: What was he saying ? Grad B: for example right now I know the GIS from email is not able to calculate these viewpoints So that s a functionality that does not exist yet to do that dynamically but if we can offer it that distinction maybe somebody will go ahead and implement it Surely nobody s going to go ahead and implement it if it s never going to be used so What have I forgotten about ? Oh how we do it","As a functional module, the action planner is too restrictive for the tourist domain and requires complex slots from the dialogue manager. Interactions in a deep map system between the spatial planner and the route planner are too convoluted. SmartKom requires a fast and robust parser that includes language-specific extensions." "Grad B: I thought two things we will introduce ourselves and what we do And we already talked with Andreas Thilo and David and some lines of code were already written today and almost tested and just going to say we have again the recognizer to parser thing where we are working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort of developed as needed when we get enter the tourism domain them we have talked this morning with the with Tilman about the generator and There one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over Tilman s shoulder while he is changing the grammars to English because w we have we face two ways Either we do a syllable concatenating grammar for the English generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way or we simply adopt the ah more in depth style that is implemented in the German system and are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were going to go because A it s easier in the beginning and it does require some some knowledge of of those grammars and and and some ling linguistic background But it should not be a problem for anyone Professor F: OK So That sounds good Johno are you going to have some time t to do that w with these guys ? cuz y you are the grammar maven I mean it makes sense does not it ? Good OK So I think that s probably the the right way to do that And an so I I actually want to f to find out about it too but I may not have time to get in Grad B: the the ultimate goal is that before they leave we we can run through the entire system input through output on at least one or two sample things And and by virtue of doing that then in this case Johno will have acquired the knowledge of how to extend it Ad infinitum When needed if needed when wanted and so forth And also Ralf has hooked up with David and you are going to continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working They are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best Professor F: Great So you guys enjoy your weekend ? OK before before you got put to work ? Great OK so that s Sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what s going on Also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are in addition to what s sort of already in code and we can d I do not know w w was there a time when we were set up to do that ? It probably will work better if we do it later in the week after pause we actually understand better what s going on So when do you guys leave ? PhD A: we are here through Sunday","Efforts are in progress to complete and test the code, generate an English grammar like that used in the German system, and get the parser interface working. A 'wizard of Oz' style data collection experiment is in progress to model users' underlying intentions when communicating with the dialogue component of a tourist domain GPS. " "Industrial Designer: right let us get started basically the for the I will back actually For the components design next step is basically the the way the remotes going to work is still the same idea as before We still have the user interface which is all the buttons we are going to incorporate Then there is a chip and still the sender So yes including the power s supply as well I will go on to my findings in each of these areas first in the power supply we have the option of just the standard battery There is a dynamo Any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up There is a kinetic option which if any of you have seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries would not have to be replaced that is one option but I think that was going to cost a little more And then there is solar cells as a final option For the buttons we have an integrated push button which is Oh just to say all all these are supplied by Real Reaction So I guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options so for the buttons there is an integrated push button which I guess is just the same as the standard ones This says it is similar to the button on the mouse for a normal for like like modern computer there is a scroll wheel which is you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down which may be for the volume You could do do that one issue for the buttons is depending on which material we use if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case so we have to take that into consideration moving on to the printed s Project Manager: What would be the cost do do we know ? Industrial Designer: that is on the next I th I think the there was not too much difference in the cost that that related to the actual buttons but it does affect the printed circuit board which is the next section Basically for the circuit board which is the middle it is just see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual of the remote The firm supplies a simple a regular and an advanced circuit board And there is different prices according to each So if we have got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard push button one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition There is a small unit available through the company which obviously would be an extra cost but it would not affect the size of the remote too much and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board so there is an extra price in that sense There is th sorry an extra cost in that sense going to my personal preferences I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic which is the idea of the watches that you move you move the remote around to power it up And this would avoid batteries running out having to replace batteries and such like for the buttons I thought we would probably get away with just having the standard push buttons rather than the scroll wheel and for the circuit board again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition then we would have to get a a more costly circuit board And that is it Project Manager: with the printed circuit boards you were going for the Industrial Designer: i it kind of depends if we are going to have the speech recognition we would have to probably get an advanced one I am guessing but I do not know so that is something I will have to look into Project Manager: But are we going f R right Industrial Designer: that is a that is a decision for all of us Project Manager: So are we able to make that decision now in a sense that this is the point at which we are discussing that issue so would it not be best to rather than I mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were The other way would be to do the presentation and then make the decision at that point in time User Interface: that is probably a better one to discuss it straight away Project Manager: Because at that point then you have got the details up there so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular and what required advance Then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in time and then that would be the end of that issue Does that make sense ? User Interface: I have a lot of the information there It might not be very clear Unless you want to plug it back in to yours Industrial Designer: We could do we should As I say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel it did not The voice recognition came as a separate piece of information Project Manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular so the Industrial Designer: if if you down It is just this bit at the bottom which I have highlighted but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip which is in the higher price range Project Manager: The display requires an advanced chip User Interface: I think the scroll wheel Project Manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense Industrial Designer: Also the displays for something else which we decided against but that bit And note that the push button just requires a simple chip so that would keep the price down User Interface: and if we are going for sleek and sexy I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kind of bulky ? I I have got pictures well I have seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it and they do not really look great Industrial Designer: Kay So maybe just a simple push button and that would cut costs on the Project Manager: So So we are going for p So is Marketing: So are we going for the w are we going for the simple one are we ? Industrial Designer: Did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? The it was basically what we said before the idea that you record in a set message and then it picks up that message and replies to you So it is basically the concept we discussed before but then we do not know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board I am guessing it would but got like the definite information Maybe we should go on what we are certain of rather than Project Manager: So if we go for the simple push button so effectively we are going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? Or are we going for the regular ? Industrial Designer: if it is just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board Project Manager: Mmmm But is there any other I mean that is true for the for for that element but we have to take all el elements into consideration And so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one or say the regular one or the more advanced then that would have to be the same for all of them S Marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires maybe before we m make a decision User Interface: But the way that I interpret that it does not seem to send out a signal to the telly it just it is like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message Industrial Designer: So maybe that would be something separate User Interface: So I do not think it would effect our circuit board Industrial Designer: so we would have a simple circuit board and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it User Interface: And I do not think you could really perform any of the remote functions with it Because the example that they have given there is good morning coffee machine good morning Jo It might be useful to say like where are you remote Here I am Jo But I think that is maybe as far as that one could go ? Industrial Designer: that makes sense so we would stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speech recognition as an extra an extra possibility User Interface: just as a fun way to find it Project Manager: Simple circuit board Simple push button W w kinetic You were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply User Interface: I think it said the cost of that is not too much Industrial Designer: I I thought so just for just for ease of not having to replace the batteries Project Manager: And how does it get charged up ? Industrial Designer: It is I think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside It is it is some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up Somehow the mechanism inside powers up through movement So you would you would move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it Project Manager: So the speech recognition was Are we going for speech recognition ? No ? Because that required the advanced User Interface: I think it would be helpful to find it but I do not think it would Industrial Designer: I think did we decide it did not affect the circuit board it just affected Marketing: Just just for the call and find thing Project Manager: I had speech recognition requires advanced req require Industrial Designer: Oh no th that is what that is what I thought but maybe maybe it does not I think I might have got that wrong Marketing: Because it is s it is separate is not it Project Manager: Speech recognition you reckon then is s simple Marketing: it is not part of the Industrial Designer: It is it is just an addition thing it is Project Manager: And so we would want it in as an extra because it does not appear to cost too much Would that be Industrial Designer: Kay shall I pass on to you now ? Project Manager: In fact it would not really cost anymore would it ? User Interface: I will just just check what it said Actually I do not think it really says anything about the cost but it says that it is already in the coffee machines so like it is already kind of Industrial Designer: I assume it would cost extra but Maybe we maybe we will find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later Project Manager: And then have to change all change everything at the last minute User Interface: Oh that was quick so very brief presentation From looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute none of them are particularly sleek and sexy I have not actually got the examples of the scroll button there but there is some curved cases that you can see a range of sizes All of them have a lot of buttons there they seem to just have the rubber buttons Does that move it ? It just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything Project Manager: I have found that try and get it back Industrial Designer: If you right click and then go onto a previous slide User Interface: There was not much more to say about that just rambling some of the remotes that I looked at one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could where it was connected to the remote control functions And it was quite a swish model where it can control four devices TV cable satellite video DVD audio so that is a bit of competition there So I mean maybe it is better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control rather than trying to compete with the functions the scroll buttons as you have already mentioned there is examples of those but they do not look as sleek as other models And there is no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it is not great Project Manager: So you were saying the scroll buttons User Interface: Th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about There was childrens remote where they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b bright and colourful and you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels but I do not know if that is really in our field ? Industrial Designer: I guess I guess we are going for the biggest market maybe not User Interface: But that is something that is out there Industrial Designer: but Was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? Project Manager: Well we are to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would not necessarily preclude The one thing that you can often do with products is you can make small modifications So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever and then you could have additional features in you know like a You would have model one model two and model three and therefore you can subdivide your market up But that is really where your field is Industrial Designer: So maybe the childrens remote should be like a a next step but maybe I do not know for ours maybe we should Project Manager: Anyway you could add on for an extra package but on this basic one I am reckoning that we are going for the basic model to be discussed here and that you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments User Interface: Right well that is something that we can be aware of Project Manager: So so what are we deciding to do here ? User Interface: I think because there is already very good voice recognition technology out there and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do it might be a good idea to market it as a finder function Project Manager: Right Mmhmm the fi the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote Industrial Designer: So you also said for going for the international market that some some maybe older people might not like the speech recognition S s so User Interface: Oh Different languages might not be compatible Industrial Designer: It w it would make it quite complicated where ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the User Interface: because I think you program this one yourself like to say like whatever you want to your question Marketing: and ours is quite a cheap device so I do not know how much we will be able to put into it Project Manager: So you would have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature User Interface: Maybe unless something else comes up","Industrial Designer gave a presentation about his findings on each of the components of the remote control. Then the team discussed the power supply, buttons, circuit board and speech recognition system of the remote. They finally agreed that they should use a kinetic power supply, simple push buttons and a simple circuit board. And a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature would be a better choice." "Industrial Designer: And note that the push button just requires a simple chip so that would keep the price down User Interface: and if we are going for sleek and sexy I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kind of bulky ? I I have got pictures well I have seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it and they do not really look great Industrial Designer: Kay So maybe just a simple push button and that would cut costs on the Project Manager: So So we are going for p So is Marketing: So are we going for the w are we going for the simple one are we ?","Industrial Designer suggested that simple push buttons just require a simple chip, so that would keep the cost of the remote down." "User Interface: There was not much more to say about that just rambling some of the remotes that I looked at one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could where it was connected to the remote control functions And it was quite a swish model where it can control four devices TV cable satellite video DVD audio so that is a bit of competition there So I mean maybe it is better not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost control rather than trying to compete with the functions the scroll buttons as you have already mentioned there is examples of those but they do not look as sleek as other models And there is no real advantage and because it impacts on other on the materials and the price it is not great Project Manager: So you were saying the scroll buttons User Interface: Th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about There was childrens remote where they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b bright and colourful and you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels but I do not know if that is really in our field ? Industrial Designer: I guess I guess we are going for the biggest market maybe not User Interface: But that is something that is out there Industrial Designer: but Was it was it specified that we went for the biggest ? Project Manager: Well we are to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that would not necessarily preclude The one thing that you can often do with products is you can make small modifications So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever and then you could have additional features in you know like a You would have model one model two and model three and therefore you can subdivide your market up But that is really where your field is Industrial Designer: So maybe the childrens remote should be like a a next step but maybe I do not know for ours maybe we should Project Manager: Anyway you could add on for an extra package but on this basic one I am reckoning that we are going for the basic model to be discussed here and that you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features at extra cost to take care of specialist market segments User Interface: Right well that is something that we can be aware of Project Manager: So so what are we deciding to do here ? User Interface: I think because there is already very good voice recognition technology out there and because ours might not cover the same functions that the leading brands do it might be a good idea to market it as a finder function Project Manager: Right Mmhmm the fi the finder function rather than as a speech function to find your remote","User Interface thought that there were many remotes that already had the function of voice recognition, so it was better not to compete with that sort of remote and to find a different viewpoint of finding the lost control. She believed that a finder function rather than a speech function would be a better choice for their remote." "Project Manager: Mm And you were talking about scroll buttons ? User Interface: I think I think we have decided that it is going to increase the cost and give no real kind of extra benefit and it is going to decrease from the sleekness of it Project Manager: Alright so we are just going to have the the rubber buttons was that right ? User Interface: and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably do not want to focus on those like such as the childrens remote Project Manager: So not to be focused on User Interface: there was a mention just as kind of a warning about button design just to avoid ambiguity So it gave the example of say your volume buttons for up and down they might both have a V on for volume let us think how they did this Project Manager: Good in in Flip it round in ninety degree a hundred and eighty degrees and have it up and down User Interface: I am just going to check so I do this right Project Manager: An upsidedown V So that would show that volume was going up whereas the one underneath would see the volume going down User Interface: What did they say ? I think the thing was that if you decide to do this to have triangular buttons somebody might look at this one and say oh well this triangular button is pointing up and that is the first thing that they see Actually that can not be right can it ? Oh well no they might see they might see this pointing down and think right that is going to turn the volume down whereas the actual buttons pointing up so the function is to turn the button up So be careful what you put on the buttons Industrial Designer: So maybe we could have like User Interface: and be careful of the shape that you make them because they might be kind of two contradicting kind of shapes Industrial Designer: I I know what you mean So maybe we could have volume written on the side and then up and down on the on the buttons themselves Project Manager: You could have volume up and volume Volume up down and Like that And because the idea was to have limited it was to have sizable amount of information on it Limited number of buttons Because it was sixteen buttons was not it that were Industrial Designer: we got it down to not too many User Interface: and I think that is all I had to say for that so what was the decision on the design of the volume button ? Industrial Designer: Are we are we going to go through the design of all the buttons at the moment or are we going to t Marketing: I have I have got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching Industrial Designer: maybe we should see yours first Marketing: Cool Right I have been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the research into the remote control market the the one that is the one I talked about last time that we would sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them what was bad what they used And we have also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment So we have had people in Paris and Milan watching the fashion trends So just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation The most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional And second there should be some technological innovation And then third and l less important than the other two there should be an ease of use as well And apparently the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme but the feel of the material should be spongy which is contrary to last year apparently I presume it must have been not not spongy last year So we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else And then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap And then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that is as a third priority so perhaps fewer fewer buttons and functions as we have as we have discussed And then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture peoples imaginations So maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg or the the buttons could be spongy somehow Maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic And then sort of even wackier than that we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote say in the shape of a banana or something like that Right so that will be it Maybe a banana or courgette or something How how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget or or you know do they not matter that much ? User Interface: I think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped it might make it more complicated to use Project Manager: Well you were just talking about you have got to be careful how you shape your buttons because you are can misdirect people And I would have thought the functionality because the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera so User Interface: Maybe just one button say the standby button is quite kind of separate from all the other functions Maybe that could be a little apple And then that would not get in the way of like kind of one to nine and it would not confuse the numbers Project Manager: Standby button No th that that incorporates the trend whilst at the same time not confusing people if you are looking for functionality Industrial Designer: Well I do not know I I guess maybe fruit and vegetables may be popular at the moment but as we know how fickle the fashion markets are Project Manager: But what are they going to be next What are they going to be next year But but th but but you you can incorporate the tr If y if you change all the buttons then you have got the problem that this years fruit and veg next years I was going to say animals or elephants or w whatever That means you are constantly changing your production schedule and you have got to make different moulds and everything else so that is not a good idea I would I would suggest Marketing: I am not I am not sure what what what the sort of timescale we are thinking of selling the product over is I do not know Industrial Designer: I mean it just seems realistic that the remote control market is not the kind of thing which takes in those kinds of fashion trends to something which is maybe more universal User Interface: But I suppose as long as it is quite a subtle design even if the design kind of changes Industrial Designer: We c maybe can imply a fruit shape possibly Project Manager: Ah d d But if Industrial Designer: Maybe the spongy feel is something we could think about Maybe still with a rubber design we could Project Manager: Was that in the sort of fashion sense that this Or was the spongy feel was that sort of fashion ? It was was not it ? User Interface: It seems like you are going to have rubber cases as well as buttons And that you can make them curved or doublecurved and that would be the kind of sleek and sexy look Industrial Designer: Oh one of the things were if you had rubber buttons then you had to have a rubber case User Interface: Oh right that fits does not it ? Industrial Designer: sorry it is if you use the rubber double curved case then you must use rubber buttons That is the way round If you have the rubber case then you have to have the rubber buttons to go with it Which makes sense Project Manager: Rubber buttons require rubber case User Interface: And that would fit in with what we want would not it for the spongy feel to have everything rubber Project Manager: so The m the main problem is how f how frequently do the fashions change ? Because in essence in the production you want things to stay you want to basically mint them out because if you have got fashion changes and that you are incorporating then it means that your stock is is last years stock and therefore you are selling it or having to sell it at a discounted rate which you would not want to do Whereas if you kept the product the same but you could have a difference from year to year it seems to me that you could incorporate a fashion statement if you like rather than changing the whole kit and caboodle You are just changing one aspect like like the standby button or something like that and especially because then you could make it something that Industrial Designer: I suppose we maybe are limited in the fact that we still have to put the logo on the actual Project Manager: Well you might be limited in space that yes Well you two are obviously going to find that out fairly quickly when you move over to your kit modelling stage as to how much pl how much how much how pliable is Plasticine Industrial Designer: Maybe we could think of the the cases like changing with the fashions like the Nokia phones where you could take the casing off the outside But whether that would be too much to incorporate in production whether that would just increase the costs Project Manager: So you are talking there about changing changing the casing Industrial Designer: the a the actual the sort of the look from the outside so where the buttons would stay the same and the general function of the remote would stay the same but you could change the the way it looked User Interface: and then you could have Oh but you still would have to have the logo on every new case but you could have like pink cases for girls and red ones and things like that Project Manager: you you could do a colour change so therefore you would I mean that is effectively what they did with the with the mobile phones was to have some in blue some in red some in rather than all in black or you know which four do you want as long as it is black ? Industrial Designer: So it is a possibility User Interface: But we are supposed to use the company colour scheme are not we ? Project Manager: Yes oh that is true User Interface: We have not really seen that yet It might and we might be able to do both but it might clash with certain things Project Manager: Well not necessarily because you could have your company We are we are meant to be finishing up You could have your company badge and logo I mean a lot of computers for instance like like on the one you have got there it actually has a sort of stick on badge so what you would al all you would really need whether it you know whether the casing be w any colour could be any colour but that badge would then have to stick out on top of it so that in a sense with a with a logo like that because it is on a white background the only colour that it might not stick out so well on would be a white casing Because you you know you are sort of you are badging it And in fact a lot of companies get somebody else to make them and literally just badge them themselves with their own badge over the top And in fact the way they have got that there even if you had that on a white which is the predominant colour of the the Windows badge you would still be able to see it clearly from you know a white casing product Industrial Designer: And whether we would have a big enough market to have this kind of like secondary market of selling the cases might be something to consider User Interface: Well if it is for young people like the phone generation that sort of thingd probably go down well and the market research has been on that side of things has not it ? Marketing: I mean it is people say that it is the look they want the fancy looking thing but I am I am not convinced on whether having changeable covers would be something that people would buy into I think with the mobiles it is the you know it is a communication device people see you with it all about and Industrial Designer: where you you keep the remote hidden under the sofa most of the time Project Manager: It is in in the house is not it I suppose User Interface: so if we just went for one colour of a rubber case Project Manager: So do not change case Change case colour And we are sort of saying no to that User Interface: Did we decide on the rubber case ? The spongy feel or did we think that that might go as a trend ? Marketing: Well it was different last year The trend was different last year apparently It was not not spongy feel But I do not know whether the trend will change I do not know whether it is one of those things that like sort of having all fruit shaped keys that that probably would go out of fashion very quickly whereas just the fact that it was a rubber case is probably less less of something that y you are going to end up hating in a year you know Project Manager: Sounds reasonable If you are going for fashion trends like that they will need t you would have to have interchangeable cases Industrial Designer: So then th th that would Project Manager: or because otherwise someone is going to have to buy a complete new remote rather than just a case Industrial Designer: it seems to make sense that we we would just maybe stick with the standard rubber case and then have the standard rubber buttons as well User Interface: we have not really talked about the curvature of the case There is flat there is singlecurved and there is doublecurved I am not exactly sure what these things look like Industrial Designer: Maybe curves give it like the slightly more aesthetic feel ? But the double curve would not require us to perform miracles with the Plasticine Marketing: When you say d when you say doublecurved what what exactly does that mean ? User Interface: I am not exactly sure I will show you the remotes that I have got See how Let us just get that bigger See how the one Oh I am not plugged in am I ? Marketing: No you are not connected to me anymore Project Manager: One one thing to cons User Interface: Shall I just turn it round for time ? Project Manager: one thing to consider is that in some ways you want by having a fairly standard case it means they can all fit together on top of each other therefore for storage purposes in shops and the like and it makes it easier that you can if you can store them up on top of each other Whereas if you do fancy things with it you then got to put it in a ca a a packaging box that that does that And the cost of packaging could be quite important visavis the total cost of the product Industrial Designer: So shall we go through quickly and just work out what we have decide on if we have to kind of User Interface: it is not very clear up there but you can see some of them have got kind of bulges like the second one and the end one where there is a curve there I am not exactl I do not know if a double curve is maybe it comes up slightly or ? Marketing: That is what I was trying to work out User Interface: But it is a kind of sleeker look if you have got curves in there Project Manager: Oh right S so do you want to go for curves more curves ? We are meant to be f we are meant to be finishing this meeting in about a minute or so User Interface: Definitely a single maybe a double Industrial Designer: Kay so shall we quickly User Interface: Shall we go for single curve just to compromise ? Industrial Designer: We will go for single curve Project Manager: curved or double curved ? So it is single curved Industrial Designer: So did we did we decide on the kinetic power supply ? The one you move around ? Marketing: I think that think that is a good idea User Interface: And the rubber push buttons rubber case Marketing: Rubber Rubber buttons and case User Interface: and we do not really know much about the colour scheme or logo yet do we Industrial Designer: we will still have the Are we going to go for the simple circuit board just to keep the cost down ? I th I think we can by by not having anything too complicated User Interface: and and the voice recognition we can use that can not we just to find it Without affecting the circuit board Industrial Designer: And see we could always decide against it if something comes up that is just something to that we seemed to leave out Marketing: And then are we going for sort of one button shaped like a fruit Or veg User Interface: that sounds like it would not do too much harm in a couple of years what sort of shape do we want ? Project Manager: So we have got spongy feel buttons as well have we ? Marketing: Do not know maybe just Project Manager: As well as or w or was that Marketing: That is ru rubber buttons Project Manager: So it is rubber buttons so it is not really spongy feel buttons it is just rubber buttons With a rubber case right ? User Interface: so it is not too wacky Project Manager: And the standby button is going to be different User Interface: I think an apple would be a good recognisable shape If you start getting into kind of aubergines and things it gets a bit weird Project Manager: so what what shape are we making the standby button ? User Interface: Shall we vote on it ? Industrial Designer: We will go for the a a a apples apples User Interface: Anyone got any suggestions ? Marketing: Apple apple a a qu Quite a big one as well User Interface: Well it could be red Marketing: Could be a red apple Either do not mind Project Manager: A red apple ? Is it ? User Interface: because we want to incorporate a bit of colour if we can once we find out Industrial Designer: And then we are going to are you going to work on keeping the button design quite simple ? Just like the Just working out what we are going to do for the next time User Interface: that seems pretty straight forward Because most of them will just be kind of mainly circular or like very plain Project Manager: Sorry what was that last thing again there ? User Interface: just to keep the shape of the buttons simple Project Manager: Right much option on that I thought you were going for a single curve and User Interface: Ah just the shape of the buttons Industrial Designer: And j just keeping the sort of the labelling them labelling of them fairly simple as well Fairly sort of self explanatory Project Manager: Right so shape of buttons simple So that is that I guess We should now go away and get these things sorted out I guess you two are on plasticine duty or whatever Industrial Designer: Is that the end ?","The team discussed the material of the remote and the shape of the buttons. They finally made the decision that the case and buttons of the remote should be made of rubber, and the shape of buttons should be as simple as possible." "Marketing: I have I have got some things to say about possible design things from trend watching Industrial Designer: maybe we should see yours first Marketing: Cool Right I have been looking at some trends in in sort of basically fashion on top of doing the research into the remote control market the the one that is the one I talked about last time that we would sort of asked people about remote controls and what what was good about them what was bad what they used And we have also been looking at sort of fa sort of fashions and what people are wanting out of consumer goods at the moment So we have had people in Paris and Milan watching the fashion trends So just to summarise the most important things which came out of the remote control market investigation The most important thing was that the thing sort of look and felt fancy rather than just functional And second there should be some technological innovation And then third and l less important than the other two there should be an ease of use as well And apparently the fashion trends are that people want sort of clothes and shoes and things with a fruit and vegetables theme but the feel of the material should be spongy which is contrary to last year apparently I presume it must have been not not spongy last year So we need to emphasise the fancy design with on on our remote control above all else And then also try and add in technological informat innovation which could be our sort of find the thing with a hand clap And then we need to ma sort of make it easy to use that is as a third priority so perhaps fewer fewer buttons and functions as we have as we have discussed And then maybe find a way to incorporate these trends so that we sort of capture peoples imaginations So maybe we could make the buttons shaped like fruit and veg or the the buttons could be spongy somehow Maybe we could make them out of rubber rather than sort of hard plastic And then sort of even wackier than that we could maybe have a fruit or vegetable shaped remote say in the shape of a banana or something like that Right so that will be it Maybe a banana or courgette or something How how far we actually want to go along and sort of follow the trends do we think the trends are particularly important for this type of gadget or or you know do they not matter that much ?","Marketing suggested that the fancy design on the remote control is important to customers according to his research, so the buttons could be shaped like fruit and vegetables, and the buttons could be made out of rubber rather than hard plastic." "User Interface: I think if you start making the buttons fruit shaped it might make it more complicated to use Project Manager: Well you were just talking about you have got to be careful how you shape your buttons because you are can misdirect people And I would have thought the functionality because the people get cheesed off by things by having to read instructions et cetera so User Interface: Maybe just one button say the standby button is quite kind of separate from all the other functions Maybe that could be a little apple And then that would not get in the way of like kind of one to nine and it would not confuse the numbers","User Interface believed that fancy buttons might create lots of trouble for people to use the remote. So, he suggested that there could be only one fancy button. For example, the stand by button could be shaped like an apple, and all the other buttons could only stay in normal shape." "Project Manager: Good then we will move to the three presentations ? Mm we need to move this Who wants to go f first ? That is as far as it goes User Interface: not really meant to touch those microphones Oh it does not have any on does it ? That is fine Industrial Designer: Oy big loop under the table Project Manager: She said we did not need to screw it in It is doing its thing There we are Marketing: Alright Thank you very much One of the the biggest issues I found about from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible useful electronic device as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you So my main goal here is to reenvision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools some of the research in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now and that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard And if we devote some energy into this I think the recent productions of Real Reaction the I go everywhere power and the high definition DVD players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools And in fact I think the high definition DVD players and all of this will come along in the will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool So again most users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls fifty percent I think of all these numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons And eighty percent of users and if we think about this there are a lot of television DVD stereo remote control users out there eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy Industrial Designer: Could can I ask where these figures come from is this market research we have Marketing: it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money Project Manager: Now in between as the Project Manager they sent me an email from the powers that be and the internet is coming in as important but that they want this remote control to only be for TV with incorporating the corporate image colour and slogan Marketing: Mmhmm Well I think we can I I think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the Real Reaction brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools even if we directly do not advertise for the I go everywhere line So an interesting element was the would you pay more for speech recognition question So these market research questionnaires looked into your your concern about technology and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition Now the early adopters those of us who grew up with technology and luck lucky for us have the cash to to pay for it the young age group without the mortgages and responsibilities ninety one percent of them would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control Very interesting I I leave this up to the group to decide if we want to use this if and you know the the designers but ninety one percent fifteen to twenty five Project Manager: Is that a large enough target market to target it ? Marketing: Well I I I think especially in terms of growth I think this would be a very smart group to target I mean s three quarters of the next age group twenty five to thirty five are interested and with the technologies improving if we can get these Project Manager: In real numbers does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percent translate to ex in excess of the four million ? Marketing: Yes But would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did I know that it was it was an that is a that is a very good question I do not know if speech recognition should be should be included but I think it is an interesting I think that maybe shows more about being open to technology User Interface: it definitely needs a lot more research Marketing: Shall I go back ? User Interface: on like how much more it would be and any you know existing examples and what reactions to them have been and that sort of thing Industrial Designer: How d I am wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of these things I expect an Industrial Designer should know that but if we are aiming to to build this thing for twelve Euros fifty is that a lot or a little ? Marketing: Exactly I mean I I I did not receive any information on that but I think the competition sussing out what other people are doing and what is in the pipeline is very very important because there is a question about do you want an LCD screen and and that was not responded to but some of the larger remotes do have screens where you can navigate you know so it turns into something perhaps you all have seen the Osbournes where Ozzy Osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a a small tray Industrial Designer: Sh surely he is in the wrong age group Marketing: it is I a and I think you know Industrial Designer: He must be w one of a s small population Marketing: you Kate you are exactly right there But I think the key is to get the early adopters people who are familiar with technology and and they will be Project Manager: But we are not looking at whether they are early adopters on that screen that is looking at age groups Marketing: Exactly I yes and I am making and I am making the the leap that people who are familiar younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people Or comfortable Project Manager: you had the other power channel Marketing: I think the most important thing is an attractive streamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist power channel volume and everything else is is up to the designers And this is this is also supported by the market research Thank you That is my contribution","Marketing tried to re-envision the remote control about the menu functionality, the current technology and the interaction with other tools based on the market research. Marketing suggested discarding unnecessary buttons and made a fancier remote control. They could also use the technology of speech recognition to help build the interaction." "Project Manager: It is doing its thing There we are Marketing: Alright Thank you very much One of the the biggest issues I found about from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible useful electronic device as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you So my main goal here is to reenvision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools some of the research in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now and that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard And if we devote some energy into this I think the recent productions of Real Reaction the I go everywhere power and the high definition DVD players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools And in fact I think the high definition DVD players and all of this will come along in the will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool So again most users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls fifty percent I think of all these numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons And eighty percent of users and if we think about this there are a lot of television DVD stereo remote control users out there eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy","Marketing held the opinion that they had to make some change on the button. According to the market research, fifty percent of users dislike the current look and feel of remote control, and only use ten percent of the buttons. More importantly, eighty percent would spend more money on a fancy remote control. The research showed that it was the time to discard some unnecessary buttons and made it fancier." "Marketing: Alright Thank you very much One of the the biggest issues I found about from last meeting was the fact that we need to sell four million of these remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessible useful electronic device as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you So my main goal here is to reenvision the remote control in in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools some of the research in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now and that means we do need to make some decisions about what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard And if we devote some energy into this I think the recent productions of Real Reaction the I go everywhere power and the high definition DVD players although it makes immediate sense to have our remote control interact with these I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools And in fact I think the high definition DVD players and all of this will come along in the will only benefit from the positive feedback from our well designed tool So again most users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls fifty percent I think of all these numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons And eighty percent of users and if we think about this there are a lot of television DVD stereo remote control users out there eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control that looks fancy Industrial Designer: Could can I ask where these figures come from is this market research we have Marketing: it was market research and there were a hundred people in the room so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money Project Manager: Now in between as the Project Manager they sent me an email from the powers that be and the internet is coming in as important but that they want this remote control to only be for TV with incorporating the corporate image colour and slogan Marketing: Mmhmm Well I think we can I I think we can really focus on this remote and and again bring the Real Reaction brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools even if we directly do not advertise for the I go everywhere line","The market research showed that many people were dissatisfied with the current remote control. Therefore, it was necessary to bring new technology into the product, which could also help to get positive marketing for other tools." "Project Manager: Alright And we will turn to the next presentation I think she said we do not need to screw it in just stick it in And then press what ? F FN and F eight Next to the control button on the bottom and then F eight at the top And then w be patient Industrial Designer: And if you want it to go into slide show mode it is that little button there User Interface: Can I not just do each one in order ? Industrial Designer: I you can if you like it it that that just sets it up to do a p a p no that one that one there Left left a bit left a bit that one yep User Interface: That ? Right technical functions design well I think first off basically I do agree with what Sarah has defined as as your personal preferencesyeah I think we need a more streamlined volume with no extraneous functions So my method was to look at the existing remotes and what functions they have And what we all need to discuss is whether we want these functions pretty much the same as what existing remotes have If we can build on this with the speech recognition that is not something I would thought about at all but it is also something we can discuss and and I presume we can miss out the functions really to to a video or DVD remote control if this is only going to be a you know satellite cable TV remote control So these are two models of existing remote controls the one on the left seems to be a fairly standard universal remote control It has fastforward stop play all relating to movies It also has seems to have channel up and channel down which is which is more what you would expect from a you know like a Sky or cable remote control where you have got hundreds of channels instead of a merely terrestrial one but I think we should be looking more along the lines of the one on the right which has it also has play stop and pause and everything I do not think we need them at all I think we just need channel selection volume up volume down and I think an an enter function where you can access it is not like teletext but along the same lines access things on the screen not related to the internet one that you mentioned because that would be far outside our budget and what we want this to do Project Manager: Mm And exceed the requirements they are expecting of us User Interface: So it really exceed the requirements because the requirements really are just want to be able to change channels and functions which is more a text on the screen thing than than actual buttons o I was thinking something some smooth sleek little remote control with big userfriendly buttons and a menu that you can access but then I do think we need to discuss the speech recognition possibility Project Manager: Any thing else you want to add ? User Interface: But we could go back to the pictures of the what are they called ? The pictures of the remote controls and possibly discuss what we think about them but maybe should hear what Kate has to say first Project Manager: Let us hear what Kate has to say Marketing: Maybe afterwards we could do a whiteboard with that your the one on the right as a as a basis Project Manager: I think the white that one on the right is as well as less cluttered User Interface: Definitely less cluttered and I mean but still it is I was just I will just resume something else I was going to say The the style of these is terrible I I I really think we need to not only possibly even materials like the type of plastic used but everything including size and shape of buttons positioning of buttons the actual shape of the handheld device colours just every e everything to do with this has to be revolutionised Marketing: The ergonomics the way it fits in your User Interface: So that is that for now Industrial Designer: Cheers Mm I have not actually got a display on my screen Still I will do without that now I want to bring us down to earth again I am afraid and talk about the actual practicalities of how the thing needs to work oh and this is the methodology I used in preparing for this meeting basically I have been doing a little bit of webbased research and if I had a design team I would have been discussing my ideas with them But the the net result is that I have come up with a first cut for the working design that I would like to discuss with you So let us go back to what the basic function of a remote control is It is for sending a message typically via infrared And the the basic components we have got to build in for our twelve Euros fifty are an energy source the user interface and which will in incorporate an integrated circuit that actually composes the message based on what the which buttons the user presses we turn that into a message and then we need a sending mechanism to send it to the receiver Now I would have hoped I think that is my only slide actually I would have have hoped to do you a pretty PowerPoint slide of my first cut design but unfortunately the technology defeated me so if you will bear with me I will do it on the whiteboard So we want an energy source which is there And we have got to think about what that might be we obviously do not want wires on this thing typically it would be a battery but I am open to suggestions and then we have the the user interface Oops And the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message which it then transfers to some sending mechanism which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver So those are the basic things that we have got to get in for our twelve Euros fifty Thank you Project Manager: Right But those things as long as we can get those components the block that that rectangle for the user interface is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? What do the buttons look like ? what does it feel like ? That is where the user interface is really coming into its own The technical end is what is actually going to be in there but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong For example the battery energy source or what if the chip for whatever reason breaks down after a certain amount of time do you just replace it ? is there any because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces like for DVDs movies whatever does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others in a different frequency or something ? Industrial Designer: Well I may be wrong here but I would been thinking of this device as being a a cheap massproduced device We are trying to sell four million of them that is that is you know that is almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is and I had not thought of it as being a reparable thing you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out and that is why I am a bit concerned I like the idea of speech recognition that is a great idea but I am not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need going to need to hit Marketing: Do we have ki some idea of how much it would cost to create a device that has these basic elements ? User Interface: Is not that your job ? Marketing: the chip composer marketing Oh no the chip composer sender Industrial Designer: I am I am I am hoping that my personal coach is going to give me some advice on that if you are asking me Marketing: I I do not believe I know Be because then we would ha ha figure out how much we had to play with in terms of user interface and this look and feel idea User Interface: It does it does seem as if we are just to do something really simple and massproduced the which is pretty much the same as these existing models just maybe a little bit more inspired but basically just the same Although what what suddenly came into my head is you know how they always take two AA batteries which which is really not very efficient at all Could it be possible to have you know like a rechargeable internal battery like well like an MP three player does ? With that you could jus or a mobile phone or whatever You could you know you just plug into a power source for a couple of hours and then it is recharged for ages and ages and ages and you do not have to worry with replacing AA batteries Marketing: that has another element which is if every time you are done using the remote you put it on a charger then you then it has a place User Interface: You would never need batteries would y Marketing: but it also has a place User Interface: And it is not stuck down the back of the sofa But then again I d I do not know if this is within our price range or not Marketing: That is a really good idea Industrial Designer: Well I think that is a very interesting idea but I am not a very good industrial designer and I do not know much about what these things cost I will do some research for the next meeting Marketing: Well it is better than my idea about solar probably Industrial Designer: Well solar may not be so good when you are watching TV in the night User Interface: Well it is just so annoying how Project Manager: It would have to sor store up the energy and then use it Solar can do that Industrial Designer: We may be talking quite heavy then Project Manager: M that would be too heavy and it would cost too much User Interface: No but just a rechargeable internal battery would probably I mean it might cost more to at first to develop and to install but for longterm use it will be so much more convenient and economic than fiddling around trying to replace chunky AA batteries and not having any in your kitchen drawer Industrial Designer: So do you think we might make that a selling point if it was something that we found we could afford to develop ? Marketing: because I am thinking in terms of the loss and breakage of remotes how much of that is is to do with it not really having a a home a a nest a place to live User Interface: Sort of have its little dock that you could put it in Marketing: So if you can dock it you know you could s argue that this is Project Manager: And the dock could look very fancy and that could be your inspiration of having it looking decent User Interface: Still I do not know if it is quite within our price range Marketing: Mm Because you are talking about another component like another piece of hardware","User Interface argued that they should discard the existing standard, and only keep the basic and user-friendly functions like channel selection, volume and enter key. Then they talked about the conflicts between technology and price. The application of some high technology such as speech recognition and solar energy would add to the cost. Therefore, to ensure the low price of the remote control, they had to think it over when deciding whether to use speech recognition. It was also difficult for the group to select between solar energy and charger. Although solar energy was fancy and environmentally friendly, the cost was much higher than using a charger. Finally, Marketing suggested making the remote control a dock to place it." "Marketing: Well it is better than my idea about solar probably Industrial Designer: Well solar may not be so good when you are watching TV in the night User Interface: Well it is just so annoying how Project Manager: It would have to sor store up the energy and then use it Solar can do that Industrial Designer: We may be talking quite heavy then Project Manager: M that would be too heavy and it would cost too much","Solar energy was not so convenient for users when using remote control at night. because it would be hard for it to store up energy. In addition, Industrial Designer had questions about the cost of adding solar energy to the remote control." "Industrial Designer: we obviously do not want wires on this thing typically it would be a battery but I am open to suggestions and then we have the the user interface Oops And the main components in there are the the th the chip that actually has the intelligence of the machine that translates button presses into a message which it then transfers to some sending mechanism which encodes it and sends the message to the receiver So those are the basic things that we have got to get in for our twelve Euros fifty Thank you Project Manager: Right But those things as long as we can get those components the block that that rectangle for the user interface is where the user comes in of what what does it look like ? What do the buttons look like ? what does it feel like ? That is where the user interface is really coming into its own The technical end is what is actually going to be in there but also it has to be easy enough to change or repair if something goes wrong For example the battery energy source or what if the chip for whatever reason breaks down after a certain amount of time do you just replace it ? is there any because it may be in the same area with several other user interfaces like for DVDs movies whatever does it have to have a a way of being segregated from the others in a different frequency or something ? Industrial Designer: Well I may be wrong here but I would been thinking of this device as being a a cheap massproduced device We are trying to sell four million of them that is that is you know that is almost one in every tenth household or whatever it is and I had not thought of it as being a reparable thing you just if it goes wrong you chuck it out and that is why I am a bit concerned I like the idea of speech recognition that is a great idea but I am not convinced we can put it into this box for the price that we need going to need to hit","Industrial Designer argued that although Industrial Designer appreciated the idea of speech recognition, it was not practical and affordable to put the technology of speech into a cheap mass-produced device." "Dawn Bowden AM: So I have got largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions and so on Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill ? Huw David: If we implement it carefully if we implement it with the right resources then I hope not I think not But as with every piece of legislation it is about the implementation it is about the cultural change as well and that is why I can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available because our social services departments—childrens social services in particular—are overstretched They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect We are having record numbers of contacts from police from teachers from doctors and of course from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect And obviously we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children Equally though we do not want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to for their safety take them from their birth families to protect them And the reality is in Wales that we are doing that to more children than we have done for a long time and the numbers are growing across Wales And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact and the facts are there So I do not want that focus to be lost but of course we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here is that due to more interventions greater awareness more incidents ? I am trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of lookedafter children in Wales which are higher than those in England and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities the work of the care crisis review which was completed last year the work of Isabelle Trowler who is the chief social worker in England countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months and currently the public law working group under the auspices of the president of the family court would all indicate that it is multifactorial So what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales What you can not do is identify a single reason There have been headlines that have said Is it increased austerity ? That is clearly a part of this Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of for example domestic abuse ? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? All of that research would say it is all of those things And then when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary changes in our police service but also changes in our preventative services you have got that whole range of elements And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that and then to ameliorate that Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we are able to protect them firstly and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them So there is no simple answer unfortunately I think in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said My job is around children at that far end but what this Bill does is it brings clarity It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be and I think that is important to hang on to Alastair Birch: One unintended consequences is that I think that there will be an increased focus on the UNCRC And in terms of children having a discussion around this point children need to be part of that discussion It is something that affects them And a key aspect of education is the voice of the child It has become significantly— It is changed completely in the last 10 years and it is one of the key things in terms of us driving improvements Dawn Bowden AM: Would that be something that you would be looking to do in schools ? Alastair Birch: Anything that improves the voice of the child in any educational context is good and it is very powerful for the children And it improves their educational experiences encouraging the opportunities for them to discuss the issues the adverse childhood experiences that they encounter which are significant and it is our educational professionals that are facing this dayin dayout They have become a very highly trained workforce they are ACE aware they are trauma aware and anything that focuses even increases their professionalism and understanding around a particular point and also— So it is a positive unintended consequence shall we say that it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts","Huw David thought there were no unintended consequences if the Bill was implemented carefully with the right resources. Then he talked about the increasing number of looked-after children in Wales, and Sally Jenkins helped to explain the reasons for this. Alastair Birch thought that there would be an increased focus on the UNCRC. In addition, children need to be part of the discussion in terms of children having a discussion around this point, which would affect them. Improving the voice of the child in any educational context would be good and powerful for children, which would be a positive unintended consequence, and it could reinvigorate some of the voice of the child discussion within various contexts." Huw David: If we implement it carefully if we implement it with the right resources then I hope not I think not But as with every piece of legislation it is about the implementation it is about the cultural change as well and that is why I can not overstress the importance of making sure that resources are made available because our social services departments—childrens social services in particular—are overstretched They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing with children who are facing serious harm and neglect We are having record numbers of contacts from police from teachers from doctors and of course from children themselves who are experiencing that harm and neglect And obviously we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children Equally though we do not want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems but who we want to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes so that children do not end up in that terrible position where we have to for their safety take them from their birth families to protect them And the reality is in Wales that we are doing that to more children than we have done for a long time and the numbers are growing across Wales And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact and the facts are there So I do not want that focus to be lost but of course we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation,"Huw David thought if this Bill was implemented carefully with the right resources, there might not be unintended consequences. However, for every piece of legislation, it would be about the implementation and the cultural change. Currently, the number of looked-after children in Wales were growing a lot, and this was because of the most appalling neglect and abuse. Huw David did not want this focus to be lost." Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers of lookedafter children in Wales which are higher than those in England and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities the work of the care crisis review which was completed last year the work of Isabelle Trowler who is the chief social worker in England countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months and currently the public law working group under the auspices of the president of the family court would all indicate that it is multifactorial So what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales What you can not do is identify a single reason There have been headlines that have said Is it increased austerity ? That is clearly a part of this Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of for example domestic abuse ? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households ? All of that research would say it is all of those things And then when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary changes in our police service but also changes in our preventative services you have got that whole range of elements And there is going on across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that and then to ameliorate that Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care but what we have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we are able to protect them firstly and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possible outcomes for them So there is no simple answer unfortunately I think in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said My job is around children at that far end but what this Bill does is it brings clarity It brings a clarity even for those children at that very far end It takes away even that point of discussion that this could possibly be and I think that is important to hang on to,"There were many reasons that had led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales, and it was hard to identify a single reason. Increased austerity was a part of this. In addition, an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and the emphasis of the impact on children of domestic abuse also affected this. It was also because of our understanding of what happened to children in those households. Besides, changes in our practice with colleagues in the judiciary, changes in the police service, and changes in the preventative services were other elements." "Lynne Neagle AM: We have got some specific questions now on implementation for social services from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair If this Bill becomes law would you encourage members of the public to contact social services departments if they do see a child being smacked ? Sally Jenkins: We already encourage members of the public to contact social services or the police depending on the circumstances Interestingly I am picking— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What if a child is being smacked now ? Sally Jenkins: Yes If a child is being smacked now we would ask that people contact We have a duty to report as professionals But if you were walking out and you saw something happening to a child in the same way as if you saw something to an adult So I think that the challenge is about—we have all probably sadly witnessed incidents in the doctors reception or in a supermarket and we have failed to do something about it And I think we then walk away and feel pretty guilty about that realistically when you see something happening to a child in a particular circumstance I think we can not ignore the fact that a child is being assaulted in those circumstances Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you A campaign opposing this Bill Be Reasonable Wales have said that If the law is changed the consequences for parents will be considerable It also says Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child—under the new definition— so I suppose you could argue a minor tap— will be subject to longterm social services involvement in their family and social stigma To what extent is this accurate and also will thresholds for social services intervention change if the Bill is enacted ? Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that Firstly in terms of longterm social services intervention in a familys life I think for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have longterm intervention currently even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse What we do is we go in for short periods in families lives to support them to work with their strengths to work with them and their family members It is not about us going into families whatever some of the public perception may be Our aim is to get in and get out So in terms of longterm intervention what we want is for families to find their own solutions We want families to be able to work with each other and together and local community support and preventative services to be able to address issues This is not about punitive approaches from social services So that is the first element In terms of thresholds for childrens services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently this is not a defence that is being used with great frequency this is not something that is happening And if we look at the data we know that the incidents of children and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years So it is diminishing as it is Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So on that one then is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there will be resources for the Welsh Government and there will be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if as you say natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? Let us be honest as you have rightly pointed out in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority you are saying that even now you are working with the police on systematic failings within the system Sally Jenkins: Two things Firstly we want legislation that reflects our society—we do not want the two to be out of kilter That would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is It should not be that we have got these rather confusing elements running in parallel and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see I think the other element is that again this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society about how we care for our children We have got there naturally we have got there by the change that is happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively from a strengthbased approach should care for our children bearing in mind what is required of us in terms of the UNCRC Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are there any comments from anyone else ? Huw David: Simply to say that I think that in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation But at the moment they do not know because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that is it is that they can smack their child and that that is acceptable They do not know the difference A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— And if you asked most parents and in fact lots of professionals they would not be able to tell you and probably most of you would not be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes where is that line Huw David: Well at the moment we do not know where that line is That vulnerable child at home being abused by their parents does not know where that line is And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is So that would be a step forward I do recognise though that what we do not want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children That is why we are saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents And to be clear there is no way that we want longterm involvement in any childs life but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents That is not going to be the result of this legislation trust me because we do not want to be involved in—we have not got the resources to be involved in childrens lives The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved then there would be a proportionate response to that and there will also be a test about whether or not that is progressed So if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken and as with any allegation of the law being broken there would be a proportionate response as there is now Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Can you outline the practical ways in which social services interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? Who is going to make those decisions ? Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making Interestingly the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary So we get a very very large number of— It will be happening now sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight It is 10 of the clock so they are assessing them now as we speak And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated ? Sally Jenkins: No There will be no action There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So if there is an increase as a result of greater awareness— Sally Jenkins: What happens is there is a paper assessment of them There is a look at what is happened who is involved what the police have reported and there is work being done with the police to improve that Because one of the things that we want to get to is actually where we are not using huge amounts of time to look at that but what comes to us is what we act on So there is work going on with a number of police authorities to look at how you improve that process But I suppose to pick up each incident will be looked at each one will be assessed in a way that is proportionate as Huw says to look at what is happened and then investigated Lynne Neagle AM: Sally can you give us a couple of examples of what kind of things might have come in that you would then take no action on ? Sally Jenkins: We get countless referrals for example where there is been a domestic abuse incident overnight where a child was not present in the property and we then have not taken action It will be where the level of harm that is perceived to happen to that child is below the threshold for intervention from childrens services Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I am pretty cynical about assessment because you know I have people come in who are benefit claimants where when they have been assessed the whole process has been very flawed and I have had to fight and fight and fight on their behalf So— But if you are struggling now with those assessments— Sally Jenkins: Assessment processes within social services are as laid out in the Social Services and Wellbeing Wales Act 2014 So we have within what we carry out I suppose that kind of initial look that look at the information what else do we know about that family— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And are they qualified people that are doing this ? Huw David: And in fact in lots of places in Wales now it is a multiagency assessment So it is a joint assessment carried out with police professionals and health professionals Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So what proportion currently would you not be taking any action on if a report came in of some domestic abuse where a child had perhaps been smacked ? Sally Jenkins: If something came in to us where a child had been smacked and there was something clearly there we would look at it We would clearly look at it and we would take some sort of action Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Even now before the legislation ? Lynne Neagle AM: Can you ask a final question ? And I am going to have to appeal for brief answers because we have got a lot of ground to cover Huw David: Just very quickly there may be no action from social services but it does not mean that we do not offer support So the expectation is that support is offered in those circumstances from family support services for example— —or prevention services So we would not say if we were aware for example that there was domestic abuse at a home ‘ There is no role for children ’ s social services ’ because there may be an assessment that that child may not be at immediate risk of harm but we would obviously recognise that there are causes for concern there and we would offer that support So just to be clear about that And that is a process that happens in every social services department in the UK and it is happened for a very long time and in fact it is reflective of the legislation that you have laid down as Assembly Members Lynne Neagle AM: And are those services there Huw ? Because I am very acutely aware of the pressure on local government Are the services there ? Is there sufficient resource in things like Families First ? Because what I am hearing on the ground is that eligibility is changing for even those preventative services Huw David: There is not enough of those services and obviously—you may have heard me saying this before—I think we need to invest more in those services and I hope you invest more in the services because obviously prevention is better than cure And those pressures that Sally talked about earlier are pressures that are not going away they are only increasing by the day actually and I would want us to be able to offer those services now Because that example of a child that perhaps is in a home where there is domestic abuse—we will probably have another referral off them in a couple of months ’ time and that could escalate And what I would rather do is provide support to that family and try and stop that family breaking down so that in six months we are not going back and saying that we have got to take this child into care because the domestic abuse has worsened and that child is at risk But those services need additional investment Sally Jenkins: I appreciate that time is of the essence but just really quickly in relation to that it is not just social services So for example there are developments like Encompass which is a piece of work that is being rolled out across Gwent and across other areas which is where the police automatically notify the school overnight of an incident not expecting the school to do anything per se but to be aware to be able to offer care for that child Alastair Birch: Can I add to that ? Operation Encompass I know in Gwent has been operational and we started it in Pembrokeshire 18 months ago We as a local authority—and it will be education that will contact the school around the domestic incident happening and the school as part of that protocol will provide a level of universal service support for that child when they come in before 9 of the clock so that professionals are aware of the needs of the welfare of that child at that point So you know schools play a key role in the universal service of this and we work very closely with our social care colleagues on that Lynne Neagle AM: Janet your last question please Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The Bills explanatory memorandum refers to an estimate of 274 offences annually where lawful chastisement was used as a defence or considered It says there is also potential to create extra demand on outofhours social services teams due to the time that the offences were reported and in order to support safeguarding measures Have you assessed how this Bill will impact on emergency and outofhours local authority services ? Sally Jenkins: We have considered that and again I think that is something that we would very much want to look at as part of implementation We have outofhours provision we have emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 247 There is no doubt that they exist and they work very closely with our police colleagues Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are they overstretched at the moment ? Sally Jenkins: I think in the same way as all of social services is If we were offered additional resource we are going to take that But are they working in a way that protects children day in day out and vulnerable adults ? Yes they are and they will continue to do so","The first question was about whether members of the public should be encouraged to contact social services departments if they saw a child being smacked. Sally Jenkins answered that they had a duty to report this. Second question was about to what extent ""Anyone accused or convicted of assaulting a child will be subject to long-term social services involvement in their family and social stigma"" accurately. Sally Jenkins said that this was not punitive approaches from social services, and their aim was to get in and get out, and let families find their own solutions. Third question was about whether there was a need for legislation if natural behavior and the culture was changing. Huw David mentioned that there was already existing legislation that covered those children who were abused by parents. However, the threshold was not clear enough for children. Then they outlined the practical ways in which social services' interaction with parents would change because of this proposed law. The last question was about the assessment of how this Bill would impact on emergency and out of hours local authority services. Sally Jenkins said that they had out-of-hours provision and emergency duty teams already across Wales that operate 24/7. And there was no doubt that they exist and they work closely with police colleagues." Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that Firstly in terms of longterm social services intervention in a familys life I think for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have longterm intervention currently even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse What we do is we go in for short periods in families lives to support them to work with their strengths to work with them and their family members It is not about us going into families whatever some of the public perception may be Our aim is to get in and get out So in terms of longterm intervention what we want is for families to find their own solutions We want families to be able to work with each other and together and local community support and preventative services to be able to address issues This is not about punitive approaches from social services So that is the first element In terms of thresholds for childrens services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently this is not a defence that is being used with great frequency this is not something that is happening And if we look at the data we know that the incidents of children and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years So it is diminishing as it is,"First, Sally Jenkins made it clear that very few numbers of families where they had long-term intervention currently. What they do was they go in for short periods in families' lives to work with them and their family members. Their aim was to get in and get out. In terms of long-term intervention, they wanted families to find their own solutions. To conclude, this was not a punitive approach from social services." "Huw David: Simply to say that I think that in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation But at the moment they do not know because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that is it is that they can smack their child and that that is acceptable They do not know the difference A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— And if you asked most parents and in fact lots of professionals they would not be able to tell you and probably most of you would not be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes where is that line Huw David: Well at the moment we do not know where that line is That vulnerable child at home being abused by their parents does not know where that line is And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is So that would be a step forward I do recognise though that what we do not want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children That is why we are saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents And to be clear there is no way that we want longterm involvement in any childs life but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents That is not going to be the result of this legislation trust me because we do not want to be involved in—we have not got the resources to be involved in childrens lives The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved then there would be a proportionate response to that and there will also be a test about whether or not that is progressed So if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken and as with any allegation of the law being broken there would be a proportionate response as there is now","Huw David said that there had already existed legislation that covered those children who were currently being assaulted and abused by their parents which went on a daily basis. However, the threshold of being abused was not clear, and children might be told that being smacked by their parents was acceptable. However, it was necessary to know where the line is, and this would be a step forward." "Sally Jenkins: There are a number of parts to that Firstly in terms of longterm social services intervention in a familys life I think for people to be fully aware of the very few numbers of families where we have longterm intervention currently even where there is what would be perceived as very significant abuse What we do is we go in for short periods in families lives to support them to work with their strengths to work with them and their family members It is not about us going into families whatever some of the public perception may be Our aim is to get in and get out So in terms of longterm intervention what we want is for families to find their own solutions We want families to be able to work with each other and together and local community support and preventative services to be able to address issues This is not about punitive approaches from social services So that is the first element In terms of thresholds for childrens services we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us There may be a small number of referrals that come through What we know from other nations is that it will peak and then settle We recognise that is likely to happen Because we also know that this is actually quite a rare occurrence currently this is not a defence that is being used with great frequency this is not something that is happening And if we look at the data we know that the incidents of children and the number of parents who now recognise this as an acceptable form of punishment has steadily declined over the last 15 to 20 years So it is diminishing as it is Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So on that one then is there a need for legislation that will—obviously there will be resources for the Welsh Government and there will be resources out of hours and things like that—is there a need for legislation if as you say natural behaviour and the culture is changing ? Let us be honest as you have rightly pointed out in social services—I know in my own authority—in your own authority you are saying that even now you are working with the police on systematic failings within the system Sally Jenkins: Two things Firstly we want legislation that reflects our society—we do not want the two to be out of kilter That would be my first natural response : surely our legislation should be reflective of what our world is It should not be that we have got these rather confusing elements running in parallel and that continues to perpetuate a lack of clarity and the ambiguity that we currently see I think the other element is that again this is about potentially an accelerating of that awareness and that culture in our society about how we care for our children We have got there naturally we have got there by the change that is happened in Wales over the last 15 to 20 years What this does is to continue with that change and continue with that awareness and understanding of how we positively from a strengthbased approach should care for our children bearing in mind what is required of us in terms of the UNCRC Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Are there any comments from anyone else ? Huw David: Simply to say that I think that in terms of that clarity for the very vulnerable children out there who are currently being assaulted—seriously assaulted and abused by their parents which goes on on a daily basis—that is already covered by existing legislation But at the moment they do not know because they could be being told—and they probably are being told—by their parents that is it is that they can smack their child and that that is acceptable They do not know the difference A young child is not going to know that difference and there is confusion about what is— And if you asked most parents and in fact lots of professionals they would not be able to tell you and probably most of you would not be able to tell me exactly where is the threshold— Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes where is that line Huw David: Well at the moment we do not know where that line is That vulnerable child at home being abused by their parents does not know where that line is And they should know where that line is because then they can pick up the phone to Childline or they can talk to a professional and ask them where that line is So that would be a step forward I do recognise though that what we do not want to do—and the last thing any of us want to do—is criminalise parents who are bringing up their children That is why we are saying there needs to be an emphasis on the support programmes that are available to parents And to be clear there is no way that we want longterm involvement in any childs life but particularly not in the lives of children who have been smacked by their parents That is not going to be the result of this legislation trust me because we do not want to be involved in—we have not got the resources to be involved in childrens lives The social worker or the police officer—if they become involved then there would be a proportionate response to that and there will also be a test about whether or not that is progressed So if there is an allegation—if this legislation is passed—then that will be looked into and a consideration will be made about whether any action will be taken and as with any allegation of the law being broken there would be a proportionate response as there is now Lynne Neagle AM: And the next question does relate to the practical response to that Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Can you outline the practical ways in which social services interaction with parents will change as a result of this proposed law and do you envisage that all referrals to the police will be automatically referred to social services for an assessment ? Who is going to make those decisions ? Sally Jenkins: That will be part of the implementation phase about that decision making Interestingly the number of referrals that we currently get from the police that we take absolutely no action on is extraordinary So we get a very very large number of— It will be happening now sitting in the civic centre in Newport City Council will be a whole host of social workers taking in the public protection notifications from overnight It is 10 of the clock so they are assessing them now as we speak And an awful lot of those will have no further action from the local authority Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But will they be investigated ? Sally Jenkins: No There will be no action There are countless referrals made by agencies to local authorities that we take no action on","There were totally two questions proposed on impact on education. First, Jayne Bryant asked how confident they were that teachers and others working in those educational settings would be clear about how to support the implementation of this Bill. Alastair Birch responded that training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear. The awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there. The second question was about whether there was a risk that those in education settings would have a key role in referring more parents to social services, which could cause potential harm to relationships and cause mistrust. Alastair Birch disagreed that this was a matter of mistrust. He thought if a professional believed there was significant harm to that child, they were under a duty to report that to social care." Alastair Birch: Training requirements for all professionals in education settings are clear The universal tier 1 training is there and all local authorities in Wales will implement that In that level of general safeguarding awareness and training the infinite emphasis is on the duty to report That will remain the same The thresholds for social care that is their responsibility That duty to report will always be there It says in Keeping learners safe which is the bible in terms of education professionals that there is a responsibility on the professional to make that referral and for that universal service So the more specialist safeguarding leads within the schools who have become highly skilled professionals in terms of understanding what might be significant harm—because that is what we are talking about—they understand the legalities when a referral needs to be made There is always the collation of safeguarding information where there might be just general concerns about neglect and other areas which combined would create a picture that there might be significant neglect or significant harm to the child and then that referral would be made to the child care assessment team or the police So that awareness—it needs to be clear for educational professionals that that duty to report is always there If they believe that that significant harm has happened then that report then goes to the child care assessment team They will make the judgment on the threshold because they are the professionals They have the multiagency awareness of how that meets the threshold But in terms of education it will be that awareness making sure that there is clarity If there is anything that professionals need to be trained additionally on it will need to go into Keeping learners safe which at the moment is being rewritten So there would have to be some new possible information there relating to this But as long as there is clarity and once that implementation phase and the discussion has happened as long as it is clear for professionals that the duty is always there and they feel a significant harm then that report will always be there and will always need to be made It is making sure—and I will echo what my colleague said Huw—that the services are key for families Schools are absolutely fundamental in that support for the families They have those relationships with the families I know there was discussion around professional trust On a daily basis professionals are working on that trust with parents because they are the ones that can engage with those families The family support officers that are working on the ground with highly complex families with multiple leads and supporting the children—they are fundamental and investment in that level of support would also help our colleagues as well So anything that is preventative That is already happening in schools and is effective and is shown to be effective and has an evidence base—we would always support that that would continue to be invested in So that is really my answer,"Training requirements for all professionals in education settings were clear. The bible in terms of education professionals included 'keeping learners safe'. Therefore, the awareness needed to be clear for educational professionals that the duty to report was there. When they feel the significant harm happened, they should report this and it would go to the childcare assessment team. And schools were fundamental in the support for the families, since they had the relationships with the families." "Jayne Bryant AM: And you were saying about how important trust is as well but do you think that there is a risk that those in education settings will have a key role in referring more parents to social services which some have said could cause potential harm to relationships and because mistrust ? Alastair Birch: I do not think it is a matter of mistrust—it is a matter of you know if a professional believes based on the evidence that they have because they are working with that child every day that there is significant harm to that child they are under a duty to report that to social care So part of the work is with families and most of the referrals we make are with parental consent That consent is a key element of this and conversation with our social care colleagues is usually You need to speak to the parents again and have a conversation with them Some of the NFAs—the ones that do not get referred at threshold—it will come back to school for possibly some support from the family or a team around the family or some other aspect So I do not think— The trust in the professionals—it is actually more important that we are seen to be upholding our duties under the allWales safeguarding procedures That is what engenders trust in a professional workforce","Alastair Birch did not think it was a matter of mistrust. Alastair Birch said that part of the work with families, and most of the referrals they made were with parental consent. This consent was a key element. For those that were not referred at threshold, it would come back to school for some support." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning In looking at your written evidence you say that we must make it very clear to parents guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents and that is clearly very important for you How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? Sally Jenkins: I think that is really broad Obviously colleagues in education colleagues in social care colleagues in preventative services but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really really key If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run notably in relation to violence against women domestic abuse and sexual violence and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness We have existing preventative services we have all our universal services we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards So there are a number of avenues that we could then explore In terms of not wishing to criminalise I think if we look at the numbers they are very very small And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is not likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence It is about that wider issue of awareness raising and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you therefore believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill ? That is you do not say this in your evidence I would like to know your opinion on that Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill So far the Welsh Government says that we do not need to do that in Wales Would not it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill for example as it was with the Human Transplantation Wales Act 2013 ? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation Surely that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill Do you have an opinion on that ? Huw David: Well Welsh Government have given that commitment and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—Laughter Sian Gwenllian AM: That is why I am asking Huw David: I do not know whether that is necessary—I am not a legislator I think that there is obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful otherwise we will have parents who feel that they are being criminalised and that is the last thing we want I think it is worthy of consideration but as I say I am not a legislator or a lawyer so I do not know what implications that will have long term But to be fair to Welsh Government I think that commitment is one that I am sure will be honoured because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent Sian Gwenllian AM: But is it clear who would pay for all of that ? Huw David: I have suddenly changed my mind—Laughter I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely I do not need to check with lawyers or legislators There we go And that is the WLGA position I do not need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either Laughter Sian Gwenllian AM: Would not it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen ? It would be clearer then for local authorities and people in the frontline services what needs to happen Sally Jenkins: I am going to echo Huw Laughter Sian Gwenllian AM: I thought you might fine","The first question was about how they should make it clear that the legislation is not trying to criminalize parents, and who should be responsible for this. Sally Jenkins responded that those drivers in relation to that awareness raising should be the key. There were a lot of ways for this including preventative services, universal services and etc. Then they had some discussions on whether the awareness raising should be on the face of the Bill and who should pay for this. Huw David was not sure whether being on the Bill was necessary, but he said it was worth consideration. Welsh Government Ministers should have a duty on this." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning In looking at your written evidence you say that we must make it very clear to parents guardians and the public that this legislation is not trying to criminalise parents and that is clearly very important for you How do you think we should do that and who should be doing that work ? Sally Jenkins: I think that is really broad Obviously colleagues in education colleagues in social care colleagues in preventative services but also Welsh Government and the National Assembly in terms of those drivers in relation to that awareness raising are really really key If you look at some of the other campaigns that have been run notably in relation to violence against women domestic abuse and sexual violence and echoing some of those building campaigns that have been done to raise awareness—I think those would be really good models to begin to consider in terms of how this is taken forward with awareness We also know that there are a number of routes that we can go through in terms of raising awareness We have existing preventative services we have all our universal services we have the regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards So there are a number of avenues that we could then explore In terms of not wishing to criminalise I think if we look at the numbers they are very very small And I think one of the things we need to hold on to in this is a sense of proportion about what is or is not likely to happen once or if this Bill ever gets to the point of Royal Assent—they are small numbers who currently use this defence It is about that wider issue of awareness raising and using all of those avenues will help us to do that in the broadest sense","Sally Jenkins said that this was very broad. Colleagues in education, in social care, in preventative services, and also Welsh Government and the National Assembly were key to this. There were lots of routes that could go through in terms of raising awareness, including preventative services, universal services and regional safeguarding boards and the national safeguarding boards. It was about that wider issue of awareness raising, and using all of those avenues would help us to do that in the broadest sense." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you therefore believe that this needs to be on the face of the Bill ? That is you do not say this in your evidence I would like to know your opinion on that Scotland is going to be making it a duty for Scottish Ministers to raise awareness of the impact of the Bill So far the Welsh Government says that we do not need to do that in Wales Would not it make it clearer for you if it was a clear duty on the face of the Bill for example as it was with the Human Transplantation Wales Act 2013 ? There was a duty in that Act for Ministers to promote transplantation Surely that awareness raising aspect would be clearer for everyone if it was on the face of the Bill Do you have an opinion on that ? Huw David: Well Welsh Government have given that commitment and I know the Welsh Government honour every commitment that they make—Laughter Sian Gwenllian AM: That is why I am asking Huw David: I do not know whether that is necessary—I am not a legislator I think that there is obviously an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness because we have to raise awareness effectively for this to be successful otherwise we will have parents who feel that they are being criminalised and that is the last thing we want I think it is worthy of consideration but as I say I am not a legislator or a lawyer so I do not know what implications that will have long term But to be fair to Welsh Government I think that commitment is one that I am sure will be honoured because Welsh Government will want to make a success of this Bill if it does receive Royal Assent Sian Gwenllian AM: But is it clear who would pay for all of that ? Huw David: I have suddenly changed my mind—Laughter I think it should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers—absolutely I do not need to check with lawyers or legislators There we go And that is the WLGA position I do not need to ask the other 21 leaders on that either Laughter Sian Gwenllian AM: Would not it make it clearer if there was a clear duty on the face of the Bill that awareness raising had to happen ? It would be clearer then for local authorities and people in the frontline services what needs to happen Sally Jenkins: I am going to echo Huw Laughter","Huw David said he was not sure whether this was necessary or not since he was not a legislator. Obviously, he thought there was an inherent interest in Welsh Government raising awareness. This was worthy of consideration. Then he said this should be a duty on Welsh Government Ministers." "Project Manager: I was thinking that as well I think the the only ones that I have seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they are So presumably that might be an idea to put into Industrial Designer: But but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features For sure","The team came up with three general desired features about their new TV remote controls. First, it should be universal (which was the one for all type things). Second, the remote controls were required to be slim. Most importantly, it should be different from the rest in the market, suggesting that the new remote controls would be with some kinds of a gimmick, such as whistling for retrieval." Industrial Designer: But but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features For sure,"There were two reasons. The first was that the unit price of each remote control was relatively high (twenty-five Euros). Therefore, in order to increase customers' willingness to spend so much money on one single remote control, the features must be satisfying and good enough. The second was the competition since there were other TV remote controls in the market. The new TV remote controls shall be special and different from the rest so as to attract customers." "Industrial Designer: So I have The only the only remote controls I have used usually come with the television and they are fairly basic Project Manager: I was thinking that as well I think the the only ones that I have seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they are","Basically, they summarized from their daily experience. The project manager pointed out the User Interface only bought the sort of one for all type things. Also, the User Interface and project manager both agreed that a little gimmick was able to make a difference. For example, you could whistle to retrieve lost items." "Marketing: and apart from this it should be having a good look also because people really li like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their CD player MP three player like any electronic devices They really want to have something good having a good design in their hands Industrial Designer: what do we think a Project Manager: So we are looking for Kay Industrial Designer: What do we think a good size would be for this ? Because I I know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky and there is just like a hundred buttons on it or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily","In the discussion, the team agreed that the good look and size were two vital features of the new TV remote controls. Unfortunately, the team failed to reach a consensus in this meeting about the size, but they left it to the next meeting." "Marketing: and apart from this it should be having a good look also because people really li like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their CD player MP three player like any electronic devices They really want to have something good having a good design in their hands Industrial Designer: what do we think a Project Manager: So we are looking for Kay","According to Marketing, people were more willing to play with a good-looking remote control when they were watching movies or playing electronic devices. The rest of the team approved of this idea since people tended to have a good design in hand." "Industrial Designer: Because I I know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky and there is just like a hundred buttons on it or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily User Interface: Kind of maybe more like a PDA kind of just hand held like Project Manager: remember we are trying to make it for twelve Euros fifty","Industrial Designer pointed out that too many buttons would get the remote controls too big and clunky. However, a really small and slim one was very likely to be lost. The User Interface then proposed a PDA or hand-held kind of remote controls. Unfortunately, it was not friendly to the unit price." "Project Manager: back to this meeting we are down to the prototype presentation User Interface: well you see each made one we did not have enough yellow dough This is the one that I made It is curved easy to hold handheld nice and small with big easy buttons This is like a scroll but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus Of course we need someone who is experienced with the television I mean this is the infrared thing that is going to zap at the television I am not quite sure how to make that but I am sure it will work this is on off switch because I think we do need that and I think it gives it a nice balance And it is going to have the logo imprinted on it in there as for what it is actually made of well the function of these buttons is up down left and right in the different menus position I presume that just means right right on it easy to see The main feature of it is just a simple design simple lack of buttons all over the place Right ? Form curved kind of smooth handheld makes it feel nice to hold material I think Kates going to tackle that quite a bit but I think we have two different options because we did make a another one which wa is in the shape of banana it is just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons like just like this but in the shape of a banana which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology just a slightly different design Also with on off switch and infrared I had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic So like well I do not know what is it like ? I guess like an existing remote control but molded and smooth Whereas otherwise we would thought like with this one or mix and match just we were going to see what you thought the a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons So we have the two options we can follow either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber depending on cost restraints And what we well what conclusion we reach when we discuss it material that is what I have to say about material Can I scroll down on there and see what else Well colour I think I definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons because that is the company colours but if anybodys got any other suggestions I am quite willing to consider them as well So it just depends what you think about these ideas and if I am maybe Kate you better say what you think about them Industrial Designer: well I do not have very much to add the the case oops that is the on off button just come off our prototype The the case can be either spongy rubber or hard plastic We are not absolutely sure about a combination of the two but it can be either of those We have the technology to do that and as for the the actual components Steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture We have simple rubber push buttons which provide all the functionality we need the the diode that actually does the infrared is at the end it is the stalk of the banana or it is just the thing at the end of this version so that is for material Colour well Stephs the expert on colour we we do not have any particular restrictions on that I think that is all we have got to say really User Interface: I thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme I guess this one is obviously fruit shaped This one has n banana This one has no obvious connections to fruit but because it is round and molded it kind of makes you think sort of organic touchyfeely kiddie it is more like you would expect it to be like a childs sorta toy remote control instead of a real one which I quite like that sort of image Because it is very big and chunky and childfriendly and Industrial Designer: Would you care to examine the prototypes see how they feel in the hand ? User Interface: Hold them you see you know Curvature is it to your liking ? Project Manager: Oh I see the onoffs in the back Industrial Designer: Yes that is so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it User Interface: If you do not want to tire out your thumbs after all Project Manager: And then you can use your thumb Industrial Designer: And it was partly we thought the design looked better Project Manager: I could see this thing unless it is reinforced having a problem with the you know User Interface: oh right Well you see that is why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it because then it would just be rigid Marketing: I like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role User Interface: we really like we really like that design Marketing: It is really kind of a User Interface: I mean it looks just like a logo that arrangement of the keys Like a c like a compass point you know just up down left and right and we think we could make that quite a good feature And it is like the the iPod scroll wheel but better Marketing: But it is also like texting User Interface: I mean it that is what it makes me think of mobile phones I was try I was thinking moving your thumb like this what does that remind me of ? Industrial Designer: And it is a very simple design there is not a lot to wrong the components are cheap to make Marketing: It is also in terms of being lost it is it is quite it looks quite different You know I I d I have several four remotes and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to you know this is really identifiable User Interface: I mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of I mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of you know text box is going to appear at the bottom of the screen but we do definitely think that it is a viable option Project Manager: The next item is evaluation if that is if you are finished","User Interface first summarized the propotype of the remote control discussed before. The remote control should be curved, easy to hold, nice and small with big buttons. Those buttons were a scroll and some push buttons. The body of the remote control shall be smooth plastic or spongy rubber with yellow and black buttons. The remote control would be comfortable to watch because it had suitable curtature and it's on-off was in the back." User Interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology just a slightly different design Also with on off switch and infrared I had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic So like well I do not know what is it like ? I guess like an existing remote control but molded and smooth Whereas otherwise we would thought like with this one or mix and match just we were going to see what you thought the a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons So we have the two options we can follow either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber depending on cost restraints And what we well what conclusion we reach when we discuss it material that is what I have to say about material Can I scroll down on there and see what else,"User Interface tried to envisioned the remote control in well molded and hard smooth plastic. User Interface also suggested another possibility, which was a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons. Which option to choose would depend on cost restraints." "Marketing: I like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role User Interface: we really like we really like that design Marketing: It is really kind of a User Interface: I mean it looks just like a logo that arrangement of the keys Like a c like a compass point you know just up down left and right and we think we could make that quite a good feature And it is like the the iPod scroll wheel but better Marketing: But it is also like texting User Interface: I mean it that is what it makes me think of mobile phones I was try I was thinking moving your thumb like this what does that remind me of ? Industrial Designer: And it is a very simple design there is not a lot to wrong the components are cheap to make Marketing: It is also in terms of being lost it is it is quite it looks quite different You know I I d I have several four remotes and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to you know this is really identifiable User Interface: I mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of I mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of you know text box is going to appear at the bottom of the screen","They argued that the arrangement of the keys looked like a logo, a compass point, or texting. The simple but different design could be a good feature of the remote control, and made it pop up in common remote controls." "Marketing: shall I take your power ? This is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department So this means we are going to go over the priorities that were raised by the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this evaluation exercise So I am going to go and use the whiteboard and I have made a list of criteria to look at and so I am going to I am going to leave this up as the last thing but for the evaluation it is going to be one is true and seven is false going over these different criteria so one true seven false and I am going to now use the the board So fancy technologically innovative easy to use trendy buttons excess buttons good buttons ugly sellable and other And in fact I hope that you all introduce some additional terms because these are things that have been brought up some of them seem rather close User Interface: what about price is that going to go on there as well ? Price of materials Marketing: like they overlap Mm price We will put price up at the top User Interface: Not that we actually know anything about it but we can we can pretend Project Manager: Well we will soon unfortunately Marketing: so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? User Interface: It depends what what you mean by fancy really because when I think of fancy I think of it is got lots of extra sort of fripperies and you know like baroque curliness and which I would call these quite minimalist Industrial Designer: Yes a plain simple clean design User Interface: simple and plain but I mean I do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality so in that respect it is quite fancy Marketing: I so in that respect I think we will go with that respect User Interface: I think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy I would say maybe aesthetic Industrial Designer: Well we have got s trendy further down Elegant I do not know if I would call them elegant Marketing: no these are not the exact terms that the Elegant We are gon let us use elegant although the the the people the word on the street is is User Interface: Did you just break the pen ? Marketing: the is fancy So let us let us take it to the next level User Interface: Well d we will just call it fancy then Marketing: Well so in terms of elegant fancy we will call it EF do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? Should we go with the yellow in terms of I think that is a really superior User Interface: I think we n we need to they are both yellow with black buttons it is just that we did not have any more dough to represent that but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black So what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two that is not that is more curved like a banana but that is not actually recognisable as a banana you know with the grooves and the stalk and stuff Marketing: I think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we will call it the banana And of the two I really like I m I like the banana but I I do like the chunk User Interface: So that is maybe not something we have to decide just right now is it Just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two Marketing: but I mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them Unless do you guys want to evaluate both ? Project Manager: I think between the two somewhere between the two is true It is more true than false about a two Marketing: So we say true technologically innovative Industrial Designer: I d I do not think that is what we are aiming at with this concept I think we are using simple components that are going to be robust but not particularly innovative Marketing: So we will say we will say false Easy to use trendy s and I say specifically spongy fruity User Interface: Well maybe only a two or a three then because it is no we still have not decided about specific sponginess or specific Industrial Designer: We have the worry about how robust it will be if it is it is curved as a banana but spongy User Interface: I do not really think that is going to work Marketing: are there excess buttons ? good well designed buttons intuitive buttons Project Manager: Better more intuitive buttons yes Marketing: People do not respond well to ugly Sellable quirky you know something people Industrial Designer: I think they are different are not they ? User Interface: Well it is quite it is quite quirky I think It could be quite a good brand like a good little object Marketing: Oh And I was I was thinking of other things in terms of could we say it is cost saving ? With the User Interface: Oh we also need though think about the energy Is it the kinetic energy ? If it is it is going to be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy Marketing: It is going to be kinetic ? we will c we will say it is a cost saving enviro so yes User Interface: but we have not completely developed that side of it yet so we are not completely sure about that Marketing: you are still in the PlayDoh stage Anything else ? Including price do you have any idea about price or other features ? Industrial Designer: Well I think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop We have not got a lot of expensive components in there Project Manager: Yes the instinct says true Marketing: So true one or should I go to two or three ? Industrial Designer: I would put it at one I think but I do not know what do you User Interface: I would say maybe a two because we still we need to get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things I mean it is not just like I mean it is not like ev you know on a normal chunky remote every button res I mean means something different Project Manager: that is not a cheap thing to get Industrial Designer: it might be the true True User Interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything depending on what menu you are in Industrial Designer: that is a good point User Interface: we need somebody to develop that Marketing: other ? Anything else you guys can thing of ? And I am going to actually change a couple of these so then I am going to instead of ugly I am going to say it is attractive and then make that true so that because I have to do an average User Interface: Just putting no excess buttons Marketing: Exactly Wow we are doing really well be you know so it does not ruin the polarity User Interface: see if we are technologically innovative I would say it is quite innovative because there are not really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons I mean I know we are not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market Marketing: Or LCD Well if you g let me know if if any of these if you if you all can think of any other thing to change here if you th if you think I should change the innovative or add other features If not I will average those Project Manager: I think we are good We are a little over halfway through the meeting","The group made an interactive evaluation of the remote control in terms of the user requirements and the trends. They mainly focused on the evaluation of price, fancy, color and energy. They picked another word, elegant, other than fancy to describe to design of the new remote control. The group failed to make a choice between the shape of banana and chunk, but they reached a consensus to use kinetic as the source of energy." "Marketing: so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? User Interface: It depends what what you mean by fancy really because when I think of fancy I think of it is got lots of extra sort of fripperies and you know like baroque curliness and which I would call these quite minimalist Industrial Designer: Yes a plain simple clean design User Interface: simple and plain but I mean I do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality so in that respect it is quite fancy Marketing: I so in that respect I think we will go with that respect User Interface: I think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy I would say maybe aesthetic Industrial Designer: Well we have got s trendy further down Elegant I do not know if I would call them elegant Marketing: no these are not the exact terms that the Elegant We are gon let us use elegant although the the the people the word on the street is is User Interface: Did you just break the pen ? Marketing: the is fancy So let us let us take it to the next level User Interface: Well d we will just call it fancy then","The remote control was quite fancy in the respect of appearance. The group picked the word elegant from aesthetic, trendy, elegant and stylish when User Interface suggested using a different word to describe the remote control. Still, they all agreed that fancy was more appropriate than elegant." "Marketing: Anything else ? Including price do you have any idea about price or other features ? Industrial Designer: Well I think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop We have not got a lot of expensive components in there Project Manager: Yes the instinct says true Marketing: So true one or should I go to two or three ? Industrial Designer: I would put it at one I think but I do not know what do you User Interface: I would say maybe a two because we still we need to get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things I mean it is not just like I mean it is not like ev you know on a normal chunky remote every button res I mean means something different Project Manager: that is not a cheap thing to get Industrial Designer: it might be the true True User Interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything depending on what menu you are in Industrial Designer: that is a good point User Interface: we need somebody to develop that Marketing: other ? Anything else you guys can thing of ? And I am going to actually change a couple of these so then I am going to instead of ugly I am going to say it is attractive and then make that true so that because I have to do an average User Interface: Just putting no excess buttons Marketing: Exactly Wow we are doing really well be you know so it does not ruin the polarity User Interface: see if we are technologically innovative I would say it is quite innovative because there are not really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons I mean I know we are not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market Marketing: Or LCD Well if you g let me know if if any of these if you if you all can think of any other thing to change here if you th if you think I should change the innovative or add other features If not I will average those Project Manager: I think we are good We are a little over halfway through the meeting",Industrial Designer thought the remote control would be cheap to develop because they didn't use any expensive components. But User Interface argued that it would cost a lot to find someone with good technology of programming and develop the innovative user interface. "Grad B: What do you mean by `` differently weighted `` ? They do not feed into anything really anymore Grad A: But I mean why do we If we trusted the Go there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones then we would conclude even in this situation that he wanted to go there So in that sense we weight them equally right now Grad C: So the But I guess the k the question that I was as er wondering or maybe Robert was proposing to me is How do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? Grad A: so the final d decision is the combination of these three So again it s it s some kind of Grad C: OK so then the question i So then my question is t to you then would be So is the only r reason we can make all these smaller Bayes nets because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? Cuz oth If we are just taking arbitrary language in we could not have a node for every possible question you know ? Grad A: A decision node for every possible question you mean ? Grad C: Well I like in the case of In the ca Any piece of language we would not be able to answer it with this system b if we just h Cuz we would not have the correct node Basically w what you are s proposing is a n Where Is node right ? And and if we And if someone says you know something in Mandarin to the system we would would not know which node to look at to answer that question So but but if we have a finite What ? Grad B: I do not see your point What what what I am thinking or what we are about to propose here is we are always going to get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities And now we need an expert system or belief net or something that interprets that that looks at all the values and says `` The winner is Timing Now go there `` `` go there Timing now `` Or `` The winner is Info on Function Off `` So he wants to know pause something about it and what it does Nuh ? regardless of of of the input Wh Regardle Grad C: but But how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner if it does not know the question it is and how that question should be answered ? Grad B: Based on the k what the question was so what the discourse the ontology the situation and the user model gave us we came up with these values for these decisions Grad C: I know But how do we weight what we get out ? As which one i Which ones are important ? So my i So if we were to it with a Bayes net we would have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question Does that make sense ? Yay nay ? Grad A: I mean are you saying that what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? Is that your point ? Grad C: Well no I I guess my question is Is the reason that we can make a node f or OK So let me see if I m confused Are we going to make a node for every question ? Does that make sense ? Grad A: I do not Not necessarily I would think I mean it s not based on constructions it s based on things like there s going to be a node for Go there or not and there s going to be a node for Enter View Approach Grad C: Wel W OK So someone asked a question How do we decide how to answer it ? Grad B: Well look at look Face yourself with this pr question You get this You will have y This is what you get And now you have to make a decision What do we think ? What does this tell us ? And not knowing what was asked and what happened and whether the person was a tourist or a local because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities What what we need is a just a mechanism that says `` Aha ! There is `` Grad C: I just do not think a `` winner take all `` type of thing is the Grad A: I mean in general like we will not just have those three right ? We will have like many many nodes So we have to like So that it s no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say Grad B: Yep Because there are interdependencies right ? The no So if if for example the Go there posterior possibility is so high w if it s if it has reached reached a certain height then all of this becomes irrelevant So If even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node true value Grad C: Wel I do not know about that cuz that would suggest that I mean Grad B: He wants to go there and know something about it ? Grad C: Do they have to be mutual Do they have to be mutually exclusive ? Grad B: I think to some extent they are Or maybe they are not Grad C: Cuz I The way you describe what they meant they were not mutu they did not seem mutually exclusive to me Grad B: Well if he does not want to go there even if the Enter posterior proba So Go there is No Enter is High and Info on is High Grad C: Well just out of the other three though that you had in the those three nodes The d They did not seem like they were mutually exclusive Grad B: No there s No But It s through the Grad C: So th s so but some So some things would drop out and some things would still be important But I guess what s confusing me is if we have a Bayes net to deal w another Bayes net to deal with this stuff you know is the only reason OK so I guess if we have a Ba another Bayes net to deal with this stuff the only r reason pause we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? Grad A: I think that s true Grad C: And then so the only reason way we would know what question he s asking is based upon Oh so if Let s say I had a construction parser and I plug this in I would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was and so then I would know how to weight the nodes appropriately in response So no matter what they said if I could map it onto a Where Is construction I could say `` ah ! well the the intent here was Where Is ``","The input layer deriving information from things like the user and situation models, feeds into a set of decision nodes, such as the Enter/View/Approach (EVA) endpoint. In any particular situation, most of the outputs will not be relevant to the given context. Therefore, they will either have to be pruned a posteriori, or only a subset of the possible decision nodes will be computed in each occasion." "Grad B: Well if he does not want to go there even if the Enter posterior proba So Go there is No Enter is High and Info on is High Grad C: Well just out of the other three though that you had in the those three nodes The d They did not seem like they were mutually exclusive Grad B: No there s No But It s through the Grad C: So th s so but some So some things would drop out and some things would still be important But I guess what s confusing me is if we have a Bayes net to deal w another Bayes net to deal with this stuff you know is the only reason OK so I guess if we have a Ba another Bayes net to deal with this stuff the only r reason pause we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? Grad A: I think that s true Grad C: And then so the only reason way we would know what question he s asking is based upon Oh so if Let s say I had a construction parser and I plug this in I would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was and so then I would know how to weight the nodes appropriately in response So no matter what they said if I could map it onto a Where Is construction I could say `` ah ! well the the intent here was Where Is `` and I could look at those Grad A: Yes I mean Sure You do need to know I mean to have that kind of information Grad B: I m also agreeing that pause a simple pru comment Take the ones where we have a clear winner Forget about the ones where it s all sort of middle ground Prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner because that would be the easiest way We just compose as an output an XML mes message that says `` Go there pause now `` `` Enter historical information `` And not care whether that s consistent with anything Right ? But in this case if we say `` definitely he does not want to go there He just wants to know where it is `` or let s call this this `` Look At H `` He wants to know something about the history of So he said `` Tell me something about the history of that `` Now the e But for some reason the Endpoint Approach gets a really high score pause too We can not expect this to be sort of at O point comment three three three O point three three three O point three three three Right ? Somebody needs to zap that You know ? Or know There needs to be some knowledge that","Due to most outputs not being relevant to the given context, they will either have to be pruned a posteriori, or only a subset of the possible decision nodes will be computed in each occasion. The latter option could follow a binary search-tree approach and it could also be better in computational terms. In any case, on what basis the ""winner"" output is chosen is not clear." "Grad A: I guess Jerry needs to enter marks but I do not know if he s going to do that now or later But if he s going to enter marks it s going to take him awhile I guess and he will not be here Grad C: And what s Nancy doing ? Grad A: Nancy ? she was sorta finishing up the calculation of marks and assigning of grades but I do not know if she should be here Well or she should be free after that so assuming she s coming to this meeting I do not know if she knows about it Grad C: She s on the email list right ? Grad B: Mm OK Because basically what where we also have decided prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together sometime pause this week pause again and finish up the values of this So we have Believe it or not we have all the bottom ones here Grad D: You added a bunch of pause nodes for ? Grad B: Yep We we we have Actually what we have is this line Grad C: what do the structures do ? So the the the For instance this Location node s got two inputs Grad A: Those are The bottom things are inputs also Grad C: OK that was OK That makes a lot more sense to me now Cuz I thought it was like that one in Stuart s book about you know the Grad A: Alarm in the dog ? Grad C: Or the earthquake and the alarm Grad A: Sorry I m confusing two Grad C: there s a dog one too but that s in Java Bayes But there s something about bowel problems or something with the dog Grad B: And we have all the top ones all the ones to which no arrows are pointing What we are missing are the these where arrows are pointing where we are combining top ones So we have to come up with values for this and this this this and so forth And maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more And And then it s just edges many of edges And we will not comment meet next Monday So Grad C: Cuz of Memorial Day ? Grad A: We will meet next Tuesday I guess Grad C: When s Jerry leaving for Italia ? As in four days ? Grad A: Is he How long is he gone for ? Italy huh ? What s what s there ? Grad B: Well it s a country Buildings People Grad C: But it s not a conference or anything Grad A: It s a pretty nice place in my brief encounter with it Grad B: Do you guys Oh So Part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back so Grad C: Oh I think we should disappoint him Grad B: ? You or have a finished construction parser and a working belief net and Grad C: That would not be disappointing I think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he s gone Grad B: Well that s actually what I had planned personally I had I I had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work and I do nothing And then I sort of Grad C: Oh that sounds good too Grad B: sort of bask in in your glory But i do you guys have any vacation plans because I myself am going to be gone but this is actually not really important Just this weekend we are going camping Grad C: I m want to be this gone this weekend too Grad B: Ah But we are all going to be here on Tuesday again ? Looks like it ? OK then Let s meet meet again next Tuesday And finish up this Bayes net And once we have finished it I guess we can and that s going to be more just you and me because Bhaskara is doing probabilistic recursive structured object oriented Grad C: Killing reasoning What s the difference ? Grad D: Wait So you are saying next Tuesday is it the whole group meeting or just us three working on it or or ? Grad B: The whole group And we present our results our final Grad D: So when you were saying we pause need to do a re run of like What Like just working out the rest of the Grad B: We should do this th the upcoming days Grad C: When you say `` the whole group `` you mean pause the four of us and Keith ? Ami might be here and it s possible that Nancy will be here ? Grad B: Because th you know once we have the belief net done Grad C: You are just going to have to explain it to me then on Tuesday how it s all going to work out You know Grad B: We will OK Because then once we have it sort of up and running then we can start you know defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and Grad C: That you will have in about nine months or so The first bad version will be done in nine months Grad B: I can worry about the ontology interface and you can Keith can worry about the discourse I mean this is pretty I mean I I I hope everybody knows that these are just going to be dummy values right ? S so so if the endpoint if the Go there is Yes and No then Go there discourse will just be fifty fifty Right ? Grad A: what do you mean ? If the Go there says No then the Go there is Grad D: I do not get it Grad A: I do not you understand Like the Go there depends on all those four things Grad B: But what are the values of the Go there discourse ? Grad A: Well it depends on the situation If the discourse is strongly indicating that Grad B: but we have no discourse input","The presented Bayes-net takes inputs from the Situation, User, Discourse and Ontology models. There are several values (elements) defined in each of these models. The inputs are fed into the belief-net, which, in turn, outputs the posterior probabilities for the values of all the decision nodes. These comprise ""Go-there"", ""EVA"", ""Info-on"", ""Location"", ""Timing"", etc. At this stage, all the decision nodes are evenly weighted: regardless of the context, each output is trusted equally. Input and output node structure was presented in XML, as this is the format that will be used for the system. A large number of the value probabilities have already been set." "Grad B: So the only thing I want to say about digits is we are pretty much done with the first test set There are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were not really read So I will not really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error So I wa Two things The first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? My opinion is we should just throw them out completely and have them read again by someone else You know the grouping is completely random so it it s perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re read just to finish out the test set Postdoc F: Oh ! By throw them out completely ? Grad B: the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said So those are those are the two options Professor A: But there s often things where people do false starts I know I ve done it where I say say a Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction and they eventually did read the right string comment you extract the right string PhD G: Oh you are talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did not correct it ? Grad B: And did not notice Which happens in a few places Postdoc F: Well and s and you are talking string wise you are not talking about the entire page ? Grad B: And so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said but then but then the transcript is not the Aurora test set anymore I do not think that really matters because the conditions are so different And that would be a little easier PhD G: Well how many are how how often does that happen ? Grad B: Mmm five or six times PhD G: Oh so it s not very much Grad B: No it s not much at all PhD G: Seems like we should just change the transcripts Professor A: it s five or six times out of pause thousands ?","A small percentage of transcripts will be changed to reflect mis-read, uncorrected digits. A speaker database will be compiled to establish consistent links between speakers and their corresponding identification tags. " "Grad B: So the only thing I want to say about digits is we are pretty much done with the first test set There are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were not really read So I will not really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error So I wa Two things The first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? My opinion is we should just throw them out completely and have them read again by someone else You know the grouping is completely random so it it s perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re read just to finish out the test set Postdoc F: Oh ! By throw them out completely ? Grad B: the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said So those are those are the two options Professor A: But there s often things where people do false starts I know I ve done it where I say say a Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction and they eventually did read the right string comment you extract the right string PhD G: Oh you are talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did not correct it ? Grad B: And did not notice Which happens in a few places Postdoc F: Well and s and you are talking string wise you are not talking about the entire page ? Grad B: And so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said but then but then the transcript is not the Aurora test set anymore I do not think that really matters because the conditions are so different And that would be a little easier PhD G: Well how many are how how often does that happen ? Grad B: Mmm five or six times PhD G: Oh so it s not very much Grad B: No it s not much at all PhD G: Seems like we should just change the transcripts Professor A: it s five or six times out of pause thousands ? PhD C: Four thous Ah ! Four thousand Professor A: I would tak do the easy way It it s kind of nice I mean wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker dependent things and so I think having having it all the speakers who we had is is at least interesting PhD G: So you how many digits have been transcribed now ? Grad B: Four thousand lines And each line is between one and about ten digits I did not I did not compute the average I think the average was around four or five Professor A: So that s a couple hours of of speech probably Which is a reasonable reasonable test set Grad B: And Jane I do have a set of forms which I think you have copies of somewhere Oh you do ? Oh OK good good","The first test set of digits is complete and includes 4,000 lines, each comprising between 1-10 digits. New digits forms were distributed for eliciting different prosodic groupings of numbers. New naming conventions were discussed as means for facilitating the sorting process. Existing files will be changed so that all filenames are of equal length. Similar changes will be made to speaker identification tags. Files will also contain information specifying channel, microphone, and broadcaster information." "Postdoc F: I I did i it did occur to me that this is the return to the transcription that there s one third thing I wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is how to handle breaths So I wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are And the reason I ask the question is aside from the fact that they are obviously very time consuming to encode the fact that there was some I had the indication from Dan Ellis in the email that I sent to you and you know about that in principle we might be able to handle breaths by accessi by using cross talk from the other things be able that in principle maybe we could get rid of them so maybe And I was I I do not know I mean we had this an and I did not could not get back to you but the question of whether it would be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal which would be the ideal situation Professor A: I do not know think it would be ideal We See we are we are dealing with real speech and we are trying to have it be as real as possible and breaths are part of real speech Postdoc F: Well except that these are really truly I mean ther there s a segment in o the one I did n the first one that I did for i for this where truly w we are hearing you breathing like as if we are you are in our ear you know and it s like it s like I y i I mean breath is natural but not Professor A: It is but it is if you record it Postdoc F: Except that we are we are trying to mimic Oh I see what you are saying You are saying that the PDA application would have have to cope with breath PhD G: An any application may have to Grad B: The P D A might not have to but more people than just PDA users are interested in this corpus So so mean you are right Postdoc F: OK then the then I have two questions Grad B: but I I think we do not want to w remove it from the corpus pause in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there Postdoc F: OK so maybe the question is notating it ? Professor A: i Right If if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might want to have some method which will allow you to block it but you it s real data You do not want to b but you do not If s you know if there s a little bit of noise out there and somebody is is talking about something they are doing that s part of what we accept as part of a real meeting even And we have the f the the the fan and the in the projector up there and this is it s this is actual stuff that we we want to work with Postdoc F: Well this is in very interesting because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research what counts is what s communit communicative And breath you know everyone breathes they breathe all the time And once in a while breath is communicative but r very rarely OK so now I had a discussion with Chuck about the data structure and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there will be a master transcript which has in it everything that s needed for both of these uses And the one that s used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts You know like Don s been writing scripts and and to process it for the speech recognition side Discourse side will have this this side over he the we we will have a s ch Sorry not being very fluent here But this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non communicative OK So then the then let s let s think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths So what I would r r what I would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? Could we get a breath detector ? Grad B: Oh just to save the transcribers time Postdoc F: Well I mean you just have no idea I mean if you are getting a breath several times every minute and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate to put the boundaries in to to type it in i it s just a huge amount of time And you want to be sure it s used and you want to be sure it s done as efficiently as possible and if it can be done automatically that would be ideal Professor A: what if you put it in but did not put the boundaries ? So you just know it s between these other things Postdoc F: Well OK So now there s there s another another possibility which is the time boundaries could mark off words comment from nonwords And that would be extremely time effective if that s sufficient Professor A: I mean I m think if it s too if it s too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se we are going to be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self aligning so if so we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath in `` or `` breath out `` the models will learn that sort of thing so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are So Postdoc F: OK But that would maybe include a pause as well PhD G: Well there s a there s Postdoc F: and that would not be a problem to have it pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? Professor A: i You know there is there s this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything as you know and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods Basically the more we can mark the better But if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area and this might be one like this Although I I I would be interested to h get get input from Liz and Andreas on this to see if they Cuz they ve they ve got lots of experience with the breaths in in their transcripts Grad B: They have lots of experience with breathing ? Professor A: Actually Well yes they do but we we can handle that without them here But but but you were going to say something about PhD G: I I think one possible way that we could handle it is that you know as the transcribers are going through and if they get a hunk of speech that they are going to transcribe you th they are going to transcribe it because there s words in there or whatnot If there s a breath in there they could transcribe that Postdoc F: That s what they ve been doing So within an overlap segment they they do this PhD G: Right But Right But if there s a big hunk of speech let s say on Morgan s mike where he s not talking at all do not do not worry about that So what we are saying is there s no guarantee that So for the chunks that are transcribed everything s transcribed But outside of those boundaries there could have been stuff that was not transcribed So you just somebody can not rely on that data and say `` that s perfectly clean data `` do you see what I m saying ? Postdoc F: you are saying it s uncharted territory","The transcribers should only code audible breaths within a grouping of words, and not outside regions of continuous speech. It was further determined that audible breaths are an important facet of recorded speech, and that removing them from the corpus would be contrary to the aims of the project. Speaker mn005 will prepare his results for detecting speaker overlap and present them in the next meeting." "Postdoc F: And w and w and you know is a It would be wonderful if it s possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but you know I ve th the So I I do not know exactly where that s going at this point But m I was experimenting with doing this by hand and I really do think that it s wise that we ve had them start the way we have with m y working off the mixed signal having the interface that does not require them to do the ti the time bins for every single channel at a t through the entire interaction I did discover a couple other things by doing this though and one of them is that once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber because when it s a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap And if we are going to study types of overlaps which is what I want to do an analysis of that then that really does require listening comment to every single channel all the way through the entire comment length for all the different speakers Now for only four speakers that s not going to be too much time but if it s nine speakers then that i that is more time So it s li you know kind of wondering And I think again it s like this it s really valuable that Thilo s working on the speech nonspeech segmentation because maybe we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting PhD E: but those backchannels will always be a problem I think especially if they are really short and they are not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them so Postdoc F: OK Well so then then maybe the answer is to listen especially densely in places of overlap just so that they are they are not being overlooked because of that and count on accuracy during the sparser phases Cuz there are large s spaces of the That s a good point There are large spaces where there s no overlap at all Someone s giving a presentation or whatever That s that s a good that s a good thought And let s see there was one other thing I was going to say I I think it s really interesting data to work with I have to say it s very enjoyable I really not not a problem spending time with these data Really interesting And not just because I m in there No it s real interesting Professor A: well I think it s a short meeting you are you are you are still in the midst of what you are doing from what you described last time I assume PhD C: I have not results eh yet but eh I I m continue working with the mixed signal now comment after the the last experience And and I m tried to to adjust the to to improve eh an harmonicity eh detector that eh I I implement But I have problem because eh I get eh eh very much harmonics now harmonic possi possible harmonics eh and now I m I m I m trying to to find eh some kind of a of h of help eh using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics and and other fre frequency peaks that eh corres not harmonics And eh I have to to talk with y with you with the group eh about the instantaneous frequency because I have eh an algorithm and I get mmm eh t t results similar results like eh the paper eh that I I am following But eh the the rules eh that eh people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics is does not work well And I I I I not sure that i eh the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is pause right or it s it s not right Eh I have not enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened Professor A: I would like to talk with you about it If if if If I do not have enough time and y you want to discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to might be Stephane PhD C: I talked with Stephane and and Thilo they nnn they they comment they did not PhD E: I m not too experienced with harmonics PhD C: they think that comment the experience is not enough to PhD G: Is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? PhD C: No no it s No No No PhD G: And then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy PhD C: No I I I I do not proth process the the fundamental I I ehm I calculate the the phase derivate using the FFT And The algorithm said that eh if you if you change the the the eh nnn the X the frequency `` X `` eh using the in the instantaneous frequency you can find eh how eh in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics eh the errors of peaks the frequency peaks eh eh move around pause these eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic And eh if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency eh of the of the eh continuous eh eh filters that eh that eh they used eh to to to get eh the the instantaneous frequency it probably too you can find eh that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous eh eh the output of the continuous filters are very near And in pause my case i in equal with our signal it does not happened Professor A: I would hafta look at that and think about it It s it s it s I have not worked with that either so I m not sure The way the simple minded way I suggested was what Chuck was just saying is that you could make a a sieve You know y you actually say that here is Let s let s hypothesize that it s this frequency or that frequency and and maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to short cut it by by making some guesses but but I would I mean you could make some guesses from from the auto correlation or something but but then given those guesses try only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency and and see how much of the take the one that s maximum Call that the PhD C: Using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency Professor A: Of all the harmonics of that PhD G: Do you hafta do some kind of low pass filter before you do that ? PhD C: But I I know many people use eh low pass filter to to to get eh the pitch Professor A: No To get the pitch yes PhD C: I do not use To get the pitch yes PhD G: But i But the harmonics are going to be I do not know what the right word is they are going to be dampened by the vocal tract right ? The response of the vocal tract And so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics is that going to ?","Transcribers are likely to overlook backchannels in densely populated sections of speaker overlap. Speaker mn014 reported that this is also problematic for the automatic detection of speech and non-speech, as backchannels that are very short and not loud enough will inevitably be overlooked. Speaker mn005 reported problems distinguishing between possible harmonics and other frequency peaks, and creating an algorithm for obtaining the instantaneous frequency. The encoding of all audible breaths is too time-consuming." "User Interface: So I found out that but the main purpose of a remote is to f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance Now for that a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the TV and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the TV There should be a signal something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a LED which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to change the channels or increase the volume he can change it Now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a a particular programme according to the user choice Project Manager: On the on on the remote mmhmm User Interface: Yes Yes So if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine of the clock he can set the time and the TV will automatically it will switch on at that particular time So he can use that kind of properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular for a certain age then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel Project Manager: Yes By your child mmhmm",The main function is to only control the function of a television at a far off distance. The signal released from the remote through radio waves or infrared can change different functionalities in the television. There should be a timer to set for viewing a particular program or for switching on or off a particular program or lock the television to save electricity according to the user's choice. A child lock system should be added. Marketing: There we go well I think we have introduced ourselves so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do not we pass right to the second slide Because that is where m my discussion starts Right well since I am in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since I have to try to sell it I thought that the method I should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody and th the reason I just put that there like that is that in the init in the initial stage I think I should just be open to lots of suggestions You know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car it should heat up your motor if should turn on your CD whatever you want it to do and then as we go on what we will have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to design and budget feasibility So I will be coming to you frequently as the Industrial Expert to tell me how hard it is going to be to add a feature or how expensive it is going to be or if your time if it takes five years to develop this it is just something we can not do So in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in and then just weed things out that can not be done for one reason or another and then the things that seem the most attractive that to to a customer we will try to then prioritise those So that was what I meant there and as I said on the slide there consulting the Industrial Engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really going to be as important as money because if we are going to sell this thing I think the best time to sell it is as a Christmas present Twenty five Euros makes a nice little present and we want it to be an impulse purchase we want somebody to see it and think it is gee I just got to have that And take out their wallet and buy it So it is got to be really attractive and it but it is got to go to market by September because anything that you do not already have out there in September showing it around is not going to sell for Christmas and then I will be coming to you as the User Interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of of the features and of the the look and the colour and I will be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view So I will be coming to you for how much is it going to cost us and how long is it going to take you and I will be coming to you to tell me what is going to make somebody take out their wallet you know what what is what is going to really be what they call a sizzle because we got to sell this sizzle A lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is not the thing that somebody is really just going to take out their wallet and buy for Christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever can we go to the next slide please ? Alright I I already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we are looking at the the whole house idea really is not going to be possible So I would like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where I was saying we we could suggest anything,"The buttons on the remote, installed with infrared bulbs, would be fluorescent whenever the TV is on, so users can find the remote even in the dark. Also, the buttons can glow differently according to different functions. The remote will beep if too many buttons are pressed at once. The team agreed to add a display clock, which can also be used as an alarm clock. The idea of having teletext and controlling electronic products of the whole house was rejected." "Industrial Designer: And and the butto buttons also I think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons If there are more buttons then it will be more complicated If you have less features then your remote controller will not be attractive so I think we need to make some buttons which are which are like f in in intended for two or three operations like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour So if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but I think it will complicate the matter more I think so Marketing: Mm Well I think I think that that is something that we will have to discuss with the User Interface person because I think there is a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature Because I think one of the things were complaining about in my what I found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one The changing modes was something Industrial Designer: it is like you know Marketing: I mean you and I all f all four of us we work with computers all the time changing modes is nothing for us but people who Project Manager: a little elderly a little arthritic hand you know and and it is a small button and and it they do not press it exactly you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else and they are very frustrated you know",Marketing said that there is a lot of argument to make one button for one feature because research results show that users complain about how hard it is to learn a new one. This idea might be suitable for people working with computers all the time but the elderly with an arthritic hand might find it difficult. User Interface suggested that it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities and be in the shape of the letter T for more compatibility. Marketing: So that was what I meant there and as I said on the slide there consulting the Industrial Engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really going to be as important as money because if we are going to sell this thing I think the best time to sell it is as a Christmas present Twenty five Euros makes a nice little present and we want it to be an impulse purchase we want somebody to see it and think it is gee I just got to have that And take out their wallet and buy it So it is got to be really attractive and it but it is got to go to market by September because anything that you do not already have out there in September showing it around is not going to sell for Christmas and then I will be coming to you as the User Interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of of the features and of the the look and the colour,"It would be an attractive impulse purchase which would be out in the market by September as a Christmas present of twenty five Euros. It would be for everybody who has a TV, mainly aged ten to forty. In the subgroups of the target group, there are elderly people who have limited functions with their fingers and hands and nervous people who cannot press a little button unless it is very clear. To make the remote sellable, it should be intuitive and easy to use in order to shorten the learning curve. It could be sold with a slogan." Marketing: So that was what I meant there and as I said on the slide there consulting the Industrial Engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really going to be as important as money because if we are going to sell this thing I think the best time to sell it is as a Christmas present Twenty five Euros makes a nice little present and we want it to be an impulse purchase we want somebody to see it and think it is gee I just got to have that And take out their wallet and buy it So it is got to be really attractive and it but it is got to go to market by September because anything that you do not already have out there in September showing it around is not going to sell for Christmas and then I will be coming to you as the User Interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of of the features and of the the look and the colour,"The corporate colour and design are recommended to be used on the product. The remote could be in different colours such as pink or banana yellow and shapes such as a fun shape like animal shapes or a comfortable shape that fits the hand but no sharp projections, lest a child plays with it. The idea of buttons with various shapes such as a triangle for volume and square for channels was considered. Everyone agreed that the text on the remote should be clear and the remote should be compact." "Marketing: the same electronics and basically all that is going to be different is the plastic case And in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is not all that expensive is it ? Industrial Designer: no Mm I I I do not think no It is not Marketing: you as an industrial person ? Project Manager: Well maybe there is there is an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? They have like removable plastic cases so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one or whatever and maybe something like that that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example you have let us say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package Marketing: Well there is a real idea Mmhmm Project Manager: And then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately Industrial Designer: like for mobile phones we have different you know covers like designs and all so that w we can have that Project Manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package then they can go to the store and for a few Francs or Euros whatever they can buy an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know","Project Manager suggested that the remote could have removable plastic cases like phones so users can change to the colour they like, for example, striped or fluorescent blue. Two cases can be provided in the package and users can buy new cases in stores for a few Francs or Euros. The team immediately jumped on board with the idea." "Project Manager: You want me to get your slide show up ? And you are number three ? Industrial Designer: can you make it full screen please ? No it is like a well you you have to press here The cup cup shape here ? exactly so today I am going to talk about the working design of the remote controller can you go to the next sli slide please ? The metal is like in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller It takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to like switch connec connect connect your remote controller to power supply from the you know electricity or something like that It should be a battery because remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then th this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it is like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device like a TV or a air conditioner something like that so a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device If you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like th the remote controller it sends some bits some waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is It should re re recognise the waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then the remote remote controller will send a send a se send a signal and the TV it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that change the volume control and so I think it is hard to design a remote controller for multiple devices Marketing: well that is already been eliminated by management so we are off the hook Industrial Designer: So user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there So you can control whatever you want you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to mute mute the TV or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there is a there should be some device to tell what to do to the in integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and TV can perform the actions So can you go to the next slide please ?","The remote control would have a chip in the integrated circuit, taking power from the battery and transforming input from buttons through wires into infrared signals to electronic devices. There will be buttons and underneath them are switches and bulbs. To hold everything in, there should be a case and a remote holder. The material used for the remote should be human friendly so that it will not cause any skin disease or allergy to either children or adults. The frequency of each electronic device is different so it would be very difficult to design a control for multiple devices." "User Interface: and and then we can add on specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems yes Industrial Designer: We can design different remotes for different people like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know Project Manager: Well that is that is User Interface: But in a family in a family there will be a aged person children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes They would like to buy just one and just one which can be used all the three Industrial Designer: of course that we can do but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you can not really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children like in a different you know Marketing: What about the electronics ? That is not really going to change much is it ? Industrial Designer: No it it does not cost Marketing: That that w that will not change much will it ? Industrial Designer: Does not does not does not matter Project Manager: The the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function Marketing: I d I would not think so Project Manager: and I think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know within the target group or subgroups The question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense I mean the basic design I understand will be the same but the question is how much will that set us back if let us say forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example So that remains to s to be seen but the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a TV Marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? Project Manager: well that is that is the question Marketing: the same electronics and basically all that is going to be different is the plastic case And in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is not all that expensive is it ? Industrial Designer: no Mm I I I do not think no It is not Marketing: you as an industrial person ? Project Manager: Well maybe there is there is an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ?","User Interface suggested adding specific functional buttons for children or the elderly or people with nervous problems. Industrial Designer replied that it wouldn't cost much. Project Manager suggested that they can make forty percent of the remotes with large buttons and regular buttons for the rest. To sum it up, if the budget permits, they can address some features for certain subgroups." "PhD F: the question I had about queries was so what we are planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? Are are we going to try and o Grad G: We we ve just been talking how do we generate queries ? And so that was one suggestion PhD F: so the question I had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? I mean I think that s a whole research topic un unto itself so that it may not be a feasible thing But PhD B: Should not Landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? I mean this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where pause we are right now PhD E: Someone wants to know when you are getting picked up Is someone picking you up ? Professor A: what s our schedule ? Professor D: Well you still wanted to talk with Liz Professor A: Let s see you and I need dis no we did the Liz talk Professor D: And you and I need to Oh oh You already did the Liz talk Professor A: So so that was the prosody thing PhD B: We I do not remember it Professor A: we need to finish the It s already four fifteen PhD B: I have like no recall memory Professor A: We need to pause finish this discussion and you and I need a little time for wrap up and quad chart So Professor D: I m at your disposal So up to you Professor A: what what s the plan for this discussion ? We should Professor D: I think we should be able to wind up in another half hour or something you think ? Grad G: m i Even if that much ? PhD B: It s interesting that he s got like pause this discussion free Professor D: Well I mean we still have not talked about the action items from here and so on Professor A: e e why do not you say five thirty ? I do not Is that OK ? We will probably hit horrible traffic PhD E: Sounds OK h Thanks bye Professor A: That s not a lot of time Grad G: Well in answer to `` is it Landay s problem ? `` he does not have a student who s interested right now in doing anything So he has very little manpower there s very little allocated for him and also he s pretty focused on user interface So I do not think he wants to do information retrieval query generation that sort of stuff Professor D: well there s going to be these student projects that can do some things but it can not be very deep you I I actually think that that again just as a bootstrap comment if we do have something like summaries then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves who are cooperative and willing to do yet more come up with with with queries could at least give give Landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know I mean ye Right ? If he does not know anything about the area and the people are talking about and and PhD B: But the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back generate the queries That s what I m worried about So you might as well just give him the summaries PhD F: Well I m not sure I m not sure that s a solved problem Grad G: y Well but I think PhD F: Right ? Of how to how to generate queries from a PhD B: How to do this from the summary PhD F: That was sort of what my pause question was pause aimed towards PhD B: So what you want to h to do is people who were there who later see minutes and s put in summary form which is not going to be at the same time as the meeting There s no way that can happen Are we going to later go over it and like make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer or or a deeper I mean Grad G: Or or just a memory refresher PhD B: But that s done off they have to do that off line Postdoc H: I m also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` Becau in terms of like informativeness PhD B: That s a good one Postdoc H: it might be you know that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact Professor D: I would think that would be the most likely thing PhD B: Dan does not know what sex he is Professor A: But actually I would say that s a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting Postdoc H: I think you get two different types of information Professor A: You get two that s true Postdoc H: Because you get like the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about So you get the general structure the important points of what the meeting was about pause with the summary But with the `` what s the most interesting thing you learned ? `` so the fact that I know that Transcriber uses Snack is something that I thought was interesting PhD B: Going to see the kids PhD E: You you can keep it on Postdoc H: and that and that Dan worked on on that So I thought that was really you know So I mean you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would not even occur as major headings but could be very informative Professor A: that s actually a really good idea Postdoc H: I think it would not be too cost intensive either You know I mean it s like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment Professor C: Are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? Grad G: As many are willing to do it Professor C: Make it a voluntary thing PhD E: Cuz you will get cuz you will get very different answers from everybody right ? Professor C: and then That s why I was wondering Grad G: Well maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we ve already done I mean I we did not take minutes and we do not have summaries But people could like listen to them a little bit and pause generate some queries Of course Jane does not need to I m sure you have that meeting memorized by now Professor A: But actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say pause what was the most interesting thing you learned for those pe people willing to stay Postdoc H: And that I think it would pick up the micro structure the some some of the little things that would be hidden Professor A: And and that might be something people are willing to stay for Professor D: Boy I I do not know how we get at this Professor C: but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something Grad G: Or want to get up and leave Professor C: and then you go around the room and they say `` me too I agree `` Grad G: Me too me too me too PhD E: On the other hand people might try and come up with different ones right ? They might say `` oh I was going to say that one but now I have to think of something else `` Grad G: Well you have the other thing that that they know why we are doing it We will I mean we will we will be telling them that the reason we are trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future so try to pick things that other people did not say Professor D: It s going to take some thought I mean It seemed The kind of interest that I had in this thing initially was that i basically the form that you are doing something else pause later and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else So it s really the imp the the list of what s important s in the something else And it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting in fact if if it was really major if it s the thing that really stuck in your head then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even So it s it s that you are trying to find comment You are you ve now You were not interested Say I I said `` well I was not that much interested in dialogue I m more of an acoustics person `` But but thr three months from now if for some reason I get really interested in dialogue and I m `` well what is what was that part that that that Mari was saying ? `` Grad G: like Jim Bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` Professor D: And then I m trying to fi I mean that s that s when I look in general when I look things up most is when it s something that did not really stick in my head the first time around and but for some comment new reason I m I m I m interested in in in the old stuff Grad G: But that that s going to be very hard to generate Professor A: Well I That s hard to generate Professor D: So I do not I do not know Professor A: and and I think that s half of what i I would use it for But I also a lot of times make you know think to myself `` this is interesting I ve got to come back and follow up on it `` So things that I think are interesting I would be wanting to do a query about And also I like the idea of going around the room because if somebody else thought something was interesting I would kind of want to know about it and then I would want to follow up on it Professor D: That that might get at some of what I was I was concerned about being interested in something later that w I did not consider to be important the first time which for me is actually the dominant thing because if I thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if I did not but some new pause task comes along that makes me want to look up Grad G: But But what s interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you Professor D: So having multiple people might get at some of that Grad G: By so by going around I I think pause you can not get at all of it right ? W we just need to start somewhere","The team wanted to think about how they would generate queries. One method was directly generating queries from the summaries, though the concern was that this would not be very desirable. Asking an open ended question about what was most interesting would allow the team to get a sense of the important topics." "PhD F: the question I had about queries was so what we are planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? Are are we going to try and o Grad G: We we ve just been talking how do we generate queries ? And so that was one suggestion PhD F: so the question I had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? I mean I think that s a whole research topic un unto itself so that it may not be a feasible thing But","PhD F thought that it would be interesting to generate queries from the summaries, as that would open up a new area of research. PhD F realized that this may not be feasible, however." "PhD F: the question I had about queries was so what we are planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? Are are we going to try and o Grad G: We we ve just been talking how do we generate queries ? And so that was one suggestion PhD F: so the question I had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? I mean I think that s a whole research topic un unto itself so that it may not be a feasible thing But PhD B: Should not Landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? I mean this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where pause we are right now PhD E: Someone wants to know when you are getting picked up Is someone picking you up ? Professor A: what s our schedule ? Professor D: Well you still wanted to talk with Liz Professor A: Let s see you and I need dis no we did the Liz talk Professor D: And you and I need to Oh oh You already did the Liz talk Professor A: So so that was the prosody thing PhD B: We I do not remember it Professor A: we need to finish the It s already four fifteen PhD B: I have like no recall memory Professor A: We need to pause finish this discussion and you and I need a little time for wrap up and quad chart So Professor D: I m at your disposal So up to you Professor A: what what s the plan for this discussion ? We should Professor D: I think we should be able to wind up in another half hour or something you think ? Grad G: m i Even if that much ? PhD B: It s interesting that he s got like pause this discussion free Professor D: Well I mean we still have not talked about the action items from here and so on Professor A: e e why do not you say five thirty ? I do not Is that OK ? We will probably hit horrible traffic PhD E: Sounds OK h Thanks bye Professor A: That s not a lot of time Grad G: Well in answer to `` is it Landay s problem ? `` he does not have a student who s interested right now in doing anything So he has very little manpower there s very little allocated for him and also he s pretty focused on user interface So I do not think he wants to do information retrieval query generation that sort of stuff Professor D: well there s going to be these student projects that can do some things but it can not be very deep you I I actually think that that again just as a bootstrap comment if we do have something like summaries then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves who are cooperative and willing to do yet more come up with with with queries could at least give give Landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know I mean ye Right ? If he does not know anything about the area and the people are talking about and and PhD B: But the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back generate the queries That s what I m worried about So you might as well just give him the summaries","PhD B thought generating queries went beyond the score of the project and that Landay was more equipped to handle a project like that. Though, PhD B recognized the flaw with people generating queries from the summaries" "Postdoc H: Now I mean you know it s true I mean we were discussing this earlier that depending on the task so if you ve got someone giving a report you are not going to have as much overlap But i i so we are going to have s you know non overlapping samples anyway But in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping is the near field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? Professor A: I do not think we should have rules of participation but I think we should try to pause get a variety of meetings That s something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at UW that I probably can do more than you guys cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get ICSI people here But we can get anybody in EE over and and possibly also some CS people over at UW So I think that that there s a good chance we could get more variety Postdoc H: OK Just want to be sure there s enough data to PhD B: They are still going to overlap but Mark and others have said that there s quite a lot of found data comment from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political Y you know anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap Professor D: Wasn but w I think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap So it also depends on the style of the group of people PhD B: Like the dominance relations of the people in the meeting Postdoc H: Mm On the task and the task It s just I just wanted to because you know it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they are asked to Not not entirely modify it but lessen it if if it s desired But if if that s sufficient data I just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which can not be processed Professor A: OK So I m just writing here we are not going to try to specify rules of interaction but we are going to try to get more variety by i using different pause groups of people Postdoc H: Fine And I you know I I know that the near f near field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree Professor A: e e And then the other thing might be technical versus administrative Postdoc H: I just wanted to be sure Professor A: Cuz if I recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap because you might have more overlap when you are doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever Postdoc H: Mm Mm Well I just as as as a contributary eh so I I know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping They will just say you know you know `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` So it is possible to lessen if we wanted to But but these other factors are fine I just wanted to raise the issue Professor A: Well the reason why I did not want to is be why I personally did not want to comment is because I wanted it to be pause as unintrusive as possi as you could be with these things hanging on you Postdoc H: Oh I think that s always desired I just want to be sure we do not that we are able to process i you you know as much data as we can Professor D: Did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with L Liberman ? PhD B: And there was a big division so Liberman and others pause were interested in a lot of found data So there s lots of recordings that They are not close talk mike but And and there s lots of television you know stuff on political debates and things like that congre congressional hearings Boring stuff like that and then the CMU folks and I were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings so there are really two different kinds of data And I guess we just left it as comment that pause if there s found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily then of course we would do it but newly collected data would would be natural meetings So Professor D: Actually th comment the CMU folk have collected a lot of data Is that is that going to be publicly available PhD B: As far as I know they h have not Grad G: It s also it s not it s not near far right ? PhD B: I m not sure if people were interested they could talk to them but I I got the feeling there was some politics involved Grad G: I think going to add that to one of my action items PhD B: I I do not know Professor D: W we should know what s out there certainly Grad G: Cuz I had thought they would only done far field PhD B: I think you need to talk to Waibel and Grad G: intelligent room sorts of things PhD E: Oh really ? It s those guys Grad G: I had not known that then they would done any more than that Professor D: Oh they only did the far field ? I see PhD B: But they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition and they did do real conversations But as far as I know they did not offer that data to the community at this meeting But that could change cuz Mark you know Mark s really into this We should keep in touch with him Professor D: Well once we send out I mean we still have not sent out the first note saying `` hey this list exists `` But but once we do that Professor A: Is that an action item ? Professor D: It s on I already added that one on my board to do that So hopefully everybody here is on that list We should at least check that everybody here ? Grad G: I think everyone here is on the list Professor D: We have not sent anything to the list yet We are just compiling the list Grad G: I I added a few people who did not who I knew had to be on it even though they did not tell me PhD E: Who specifically ask not to be Grad G: You are on it are not you ? Postdoc H: So I w just just for clarification So `` found data `` they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields right ? PhD B: What they mean is stuff they do not have to fund to collect Postdoc H: It sounds like such a t PhD B: Well I mean `` found `` has also the meaning that s it very natural It s things occur without any You know the pe these people were not wearing close talking mikes but they were recorded anyway like the congressional hearings and you know for legal purposes or whatever Postdoc H: OK But it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and pause other fields PhD B: Mark s aware of those too PhD E: `` Hey look what we found ! `` PhD B: That would be found data because they found it and it exists PhD E: `` I found this great corpora `` PhD B: They did not have to collect it Of course it s not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose Grad G: `` Psst comment Want to buy a corpora ? `` PhD B: But what he means is that You know Mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know reams and reams of stuff of broadcast stuff TV stuff radio stuff But he well understands that that s very different than these this type of meeting","The team thought it would be worthwhile to get different sorts of meeting data. Meetings will vary in mic placement, speaker sound overlap, and style. Even the dominance relationships in the meetings would cause variance in the data. Some members also wanted to gather TV and radio data." "PhD B: They are still going to overlap but Mark and others have said that there s quite a lot of found data comment from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political Y you know anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap Professor D: Wasn but w I think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap So it also depends on the style of the group of people PhD B: Like the dominance relations of the people in the meeting Postdoc H: Mm On the task and the task It s just I just wanted to because you know it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they are asked to Not not entirely modify it but lessen it if if it s desired But if if that s sufficient data I just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which can not be processed Professor A: OK So I m just writing here we are not going to try to specify rules of interaction but we are going to try to get more variety by i using different pause groups of people Postdoc H: Fine And I you know I I know that the near f near field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree Professor A: e e And then the other thing might be technical versus administrative Postdoc H: I just wanted to be sure Professor A: Cuz if I recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap because you might have more overlap when you are doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever Postdoc H: Mm Mm Well I just as as as a contributary eh so I I know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping They will just say you know you know `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` So it is possible to lessen if we wanted to But but these other factors are fine I just wanted to raise the issue Professor A: Well the reason why I did not want to is be why I personally did not want to comment is because I wanted it to be pause as unintrusive as possi as you could be with these things hanging on you Postdoc H: Oh I think that s always desired I just want to be sure we do not that we are able to process i you you know as much data as we can Professor D: Did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with L Liberman ? PhD B: And there was a big division so Liberman and others pause were interested in a lot of found data So there s lots of recordings that They are not close talk mike but And and there s lots of television you know stuff on political debates and things like that congre congressional hearings Boring stuff like that and then the CMU folks and I were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings so there are really two different kinds of data And I guess we just left it as comment that pause if there s found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily then of course we would do it","PhD B explained the different features of meetings and favored collection of diverse data. PhD B thought the team's data collection could focus on natural meetings, but there was no reason to not incorporate other data." "Professor D: Actually th comment the CMU folk have collected a lot of data Is that is that going to be publicly available PhD B: As far as I know they h have not Grad G: It s also it s not it s not near far right ? PhD B: I m not sure if people were interested they could talk to them but I I got the feeling there was some politics involved Grad G: I think going to add that to one of my action items PhD B: I I do not know Professor D: W we should know what s out there certainly Grad G: Cuz I had thought they would only done far field PhD B: I think you need to talk to Waibel and Grad G: intelligent room sorts of things PhD E: Oh really ? It s those guys Grad G: I had not known that then they would done any more than that Professor D: Oh they only did the far field ? I see PhD B: But they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition and they did do real conversations But as far as I know they did not offer that data to the community at this meeting But that could change cuz Mark you know Mark s really into this We should keep in touch with him","The team knew that the CMU folks had collected a lot of data, but they were not sure if it was publicly available. It seemed that there was politics involved. The team thought that they could let Mark see if CMU would let them use the data." "Professor C: and then it s IBM OK so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting and then and then you would give IBM whatever was fixed Postdoc A: And have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? Professor C: Well but start from the beginning and go to the end right ? So if they were only half way through then that s what you would give IBM PhD B: As of what point ? I mean The I guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to IBM or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? Let their Professor C: Why would not we s w i if they were going sequentially through it why would not we give them I mean i are we trying to get something done by the time Brian comes ?",One meeting recording has been channelized and pre-segmented for delivery to IBM. A subset of Meeting Recorder data will be prepared (i.e. pre-segmented and manually adjusted) for delivery to IBM. "Grad E: Whereas I think it it s probably something pathologic and actually Stephane s results I think confirm that He s he did the Aurora system also got very lousy average error like fifteen or or fifteen to twenty percent average ? But then he ran it just on the lapel and got about five or six percent word error ? So that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases But you know we th that may not be true It may be just some of the segments they are just doing a lousy job on So I will I will listen to it and find out since you would actually split it up by segment So I can actually listen to it PhD B: Did you run the Andreas the r SRI recognizer on the digits ? Grad E: Oh I thought he had sent that around to everyone did you just sent that to me ? PhD F: No I d I did not Since I considered those preliminary I did not So if you it s actually it it was trimodal actually Grad E: Oh was it trimodal OK Professor C: There s zero a little bit and a lot PhD F: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero which were the native speakers the non pathological native speakers Then there was another bump at oh like fifteen or something PhD B: This is error you are talking about ? Professor C: Oh was it fifteen ? PhD F: Those were the non natives And then there was another distinct bump at like a hundred which must have been some problem","Preliminary recognition results were obtained for a subset of digits data. The error rate distribution was multimodal, reflecting differences in performance for native versus non-native speakers, and also possible pre-processing errors. " "Grad G: What if you preload them all ? Grad E: right ? I mean so so we could use like X Waves instead of Transcriber and it loads faster certainly Grad G: What if you were to preload all the channels or or initially Grad E: Well that s what I tried originally So I I actually before Dave Gelbart did this I did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll So you just scroll a screen and it would you know go `` kur chunk ! `` And so it just was not doable with the current interface Postdoc A: You know I am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and you know you could fire up a Transcriber interface for y you know in different windows multiple ones one for each channel And it s sort of a a hack but I mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form Grad E: I think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals we need to change the interface so that they can do that PhD D: That s actually what I thought of loading the chopped up waveforms I mean you know that that would make it faster PhD B: The problem is if if anything s cut off you can not expand it from the chopped up",The Transcriber interface may require modifications if it becomes necessary for transcribers to quickly switch among waveform displays. "Grad E: hopefully I mean The mixed signal the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized So I think they should be able to hear The only problem is is you know counting how many and if they are really correct or not So I do not know PhD D: I do not know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal Grad E: Right but but once once you know that they happen you can at least listen to the close talking PhD D: but you would know that they were there and then you would switch Right And then you would switch into the other Professor C: But right now to do this limitation the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? Is what she s saying so they are using their ears to do these markings anyway Grad E: did Dave Did Dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? I had suggested it before I just do not know whether he did it or not Postdoc A: I m not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? you can get that oh oh get you can get the you can get it to switch audio ? not last I tried but maybe he s changed it again Grad E: We should get him to do that because I think that would be much much faster than going to the menu Postdoc A: I disagree There s a reason I disagree and that is that you it s very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio There are times when I want to hear the mixed signal bu but I want to transcribe on the single channel So right now Grad E: Then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it","Transcribers risk overlooking speech that is deeply embedded in the mixed signal. Should transcriptions be derived from each of the close-talking channels or from the mixed signal alone? The pre-segmentation tool does not perform well on short utterances, e.g. backchannels." "Grad E: Cool I thought it was higher than that that s pr PhD D: It really it depends a lot This is just sort of an overall Professor C: Well I know what we are not turning in to Eurospeech a redo of the HLT paper That I do not want to do that Grad E: I m doing that for AVIOS PhD D: But I think we are oh Morgan s talk went very well I think I think Morgan s talk went very well it woke you know it was really a well presented and got people laughing PhD F: Some good jokes in it ? Grad E: Especially the batteried meter popping up that was hilarious Right when you were talking about that Professor C: You know that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged Postdoc A: You said `` Speaking about energy `` or something Grad E: He he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand held and trying to get lower power and so on and Microsoft pops up a little window saying `` Your batteries are now fully charged `` I m thinking about scripting that for my talk you know put put a little script in there to say `` Your batteries are low `` right when I m saying that Professor C: No I mean i in in your case I mean you were joking about it but I mean your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences it s not these are conferences that have d really different emphases Whereas HLT and and Eurospeech pretty pretty pretty similar so I I I can not see really just putting in the same thing PhD D: No I d I do not think that paper is really the HLT paper is really more of a introduction to the project paper and Grad E: for Eurospeech we want some results if we can get them PhD D: Well it it s probably would not make sense Professor C: Or some or some I mean I would see Eurospeech if we have some Eurospeech papers these will be paper p p submissions",Deleting segments of the recordings is expected to be very time-consuming for transcribers. More results are needed for generating adequate submissions for Eurospeech'01. "PhD D: we need to get a decent f OK Postdoc A: That s what my hope has been PhD D: So we should at least try it even if we can not Postdoc A: and that s what that s what you know ever since the the February meeting that I transcribed from last year forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later Grad E: On the table right ? Postdoc A: And and so I m hopeful that that s possible I know that there s complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes PhD D: I mean we might be able at the very worst we can get transcribers to correct the cases where I mean you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition s so poor Right ? PhD B: we were never just going to go with these as the final alignments We were always going to run them past somebody PhD D: So we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments PhD F: I m probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by by using acoustic adaptation the Right now I m using the unadapted models for the forced alignments and it s possible that you get considerably better results if you manage to adapt the phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech so PhD B: Could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? Professor C: That s what he just said Grad E: That s what he was saying",Future efforts will involve an attempt to get good forced alignments on digits data and generate a report for Eurospeech'01. "Professor C: OK So he s not here PhD D: I will try to explain the thing that I did this this week during this week Well eh you know that I work I begin to work with a new feature to detect voice unvoice What I trying two MLP to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature from the eh bus base system PhD E: The the mel cepstrum ? PhD D: No satly the mes the Mel Cepstrum the new base system the new base system the Aurora system with the new filter VAD or something like that And I m trying two MLP one one that only have t three output voice unvoice and silence and other one that have fifty six output The probabilities of the allophone And I tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the MLP with the three output And I put together the fifteen features and the three MLP output And well the result are li a little bit better but more or less similar Professor C: I I m I m slightly confused What what feeds the the three output net ? No no what feeds it ? What features does it see ? PhD D: The feature the input ? The inputs are the fifteen the fifteen bases feature the with the new code And the other three features are ARE the variance of the difference between the two spectrum the variance of the auto correlation function except the the first point because half the height value is ARE zero and also ARE zero the first coefficient of the auto correlation function That is like the energy with these three feature Professor C: You would not do like ARE one over ARE zero or something like that ? I mean usually for voiced unvoiced you would do you would do something you would do energy but then you have something like spectral slope which is you get like ARE one ov over ARE zero or something like that PhD E: What are the ARE s ? I m sorry I missed it PhD D: Auto correlation ? Yes yes the variance of the auto correlation function that uses that Professor C: Ye Well that s the variance but if you just say `` what is `` I mean to first order one of the differences between voiced unvoiced and silence is energy Another one is but the other one is the spectral shape PhD D: I I will The spectral shape Professor C: and so ARE one over ARE zero is what you typically use for that PhD D: No I do not use that I can not use Professor C: No I m saying that s what people us typically use See because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` Grad A: Oh ARE ARE ARE zero Professor C: So if it s if it s if it s low energy but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that it s probably silence but if it s low energy and the spectrum looks like that it s probably unvoiced So if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced unvoiced you would pick something about the spectrum like ARE one over ARE zero and ARE zero or i i you know you would have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like zero crossing counts PhD D: Well I can also th use this Bec because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar It s not quite better Professor C: Right but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original FFT and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take on it Right But it it could be something else Suppose you did not have anything like that Then in that case if you have two nets Alright and this one has three outputs and this one has f whatever fifty six or something if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here we ve found in the past you will do better at voiced unvoiced silence than you do with this one So just having the three output thing does not does not really buy you anything The issue is what you feed it PhD E: So you are saying take the features that go into the voiced unvoiced silence net and feed those into the other one as additional inputs rather than having a separate Professor C: w W well that s another way That was not what I was saying but that s certainly another thing to do No I was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this what more does it buy you ? And what I was saying is that the only thing I think that it buys you is based on whether you feed it something different And something different in some fundamental way And so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before was looking at something ab something about the difference between the the log FFT log power and the log magnitude F F spectrum and the filter bank And so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she s saying you know trying So the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference but that might not be the right number Right ? I mean maybe there s something about the variance that s that s not enough or maybe there s something else that that one could use but I think that for me the thing that that struck me was that you want to get something back here so here s here s an idea What about it you skip all the all the really clever things and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? This is f You have the log magnitude spectrum and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance That s a clever thing to do What if you stopped being clever ? And you just took this thing in here because it s a neural net and neural nets are wonderful and figure out what they can what they most need from things and I mean that s what they are good at So I mean you are you are you are trying to be clever and say what s the statistic that should we should get about this difference but in fact you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in you know another way saying let it figure out what s the what is the interaction especially if you do this over multiple frames ? Then you have this over time and and both kinds of measures and you might get something better PhD E: So so do not do not do the division but let the net have everything Professor C: That s another thing you could do I mean it seems to me if you have exactly the right thing then it s better to do it without the net because otherwise you are asking the net to learn this you know say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication I mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work But it s kind of crazy cuz we know how to multiply and you you would be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out But suppose you do not really know what the right thing is And that s what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at So Anyway It s just a thought PhD E: How long does it take Carmen to train up one of these nets ? PhD D: Mmm one day or less Professor C: it s probably worth it Grad A: What are what are your f frame error rates for for this ? PhD D: Eh fifty f six no the frame error rate ? Professor C: Is that maybe that s accuracy ? Grad A: Fif fifty six percent accurate for v voice unvoice PhD D: The accuracy Mm No for yes f I do not remember for voice unvoice maybe for the other one Professor C: voiced unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better PhD D: for voiced I do not reme Grad A: Should be in nineties somewhere PhD D: Better Maybe for voice unvoice This is for the other one I should I can not show that But I think that fifty five was for the when the output are the fifty six phone That I look in the with the other nnn the other MLP that we have are more or less the same number Silence will be better but more or less the same Professor C: I think at the frame level for fifty six that was the kind of number we were getting for for reduced band width stuff PhD D: I think that I I I think that for the other one for the three output is sixty sixty two sixty three more or less because it s noise also Professor C: But even i in Oh in training Still Well actually so this is a test that you should do then if you are getting fifty six percent over here that s in noise also right ? Oh OK If you are getting fifty six here try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones and see what you get then I bet you get better than sixty three PhD D: Well I do not know but I th I I think that we I have the result more or less Maybe I do not know I do not I m not sure but I remember that I can not show that Professor C: OK but that s a That is a a good check point you should do that anyway OK ? Given this this regular old net that s just for choosing for other purposes add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that PhD D: I will do that But PhD E: The targets for the neural net they come from forced alignments ? Professor C: Oh So this is trained on TIMIT PhD D: Noisy TIMIT We have noisy TIMIT with the noise of the the TI digits And now we have another noisy TIMIT also with the noise of Italian database Professor C: I see Well there s going to be it looks like there s going to be a noisy some large vocabulary noisy stuff too Somebody s preparing I forget what it will be resource management Wall Street Journal something Some some read task actually that they are preparing PhD E: For what For Aurora ? Professor C: so the the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they ve already seen or they make it later And one of the arguments for making it later is let s make sure that whatever techniques that we are using work for something more than than connected digits PhD E: When are they planning When would they do that ? Professor C: Mmm I think late I think in the summer sometime","The existing net for voice-unvoice had three outputs, voice, unvoice, and silence. It took fifteen features as inputs. The team discussed how energy measures could be incorporated to improve performance on this task. The nets took around a day to train, so the team could run more experiments. The current performance on the task was unsatisfactory." "Professor C: and so ARE one over ARE zero is what you typically use for that PhD D: No I do not use that I can not use Professor C: No I m saying that s what people us typically use See because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` Grad A: Oh ARE ARE ARE zero Professor C: So if it s if it s if it s low energy but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that it s probably silence but if it s low energy and the spectrum looks like that it s probably unvoiced So if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced unvoiced you would pick something about the spectrum like ARE one over ARE zero and ARE zero or i i you know you would have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like zero crossing counts PhD D: Well I can also th use this Bec because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar It s not quite better Professor C: Right but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original FFT and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take on it Right But it it could be something else Suppose you did not have anything like that Then in that case if you have two nets Alright and this one has three outputs and this one has f whatever fifty six or something if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here we ve found in the past you will do better at voiced unvoiced silence than you do with this one So just having the three output thing does not does not really buy you anything The issue is what you feed it PhD E: So you are saying take the features that go into the voiced unvoiced silence net and feed those into the other one as additional inputs rather than having a separate Professor C: w W well that s another way That was not what I was saying but that s certainly another thing to do No I was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this what more does it buy you ? And what I was saying is that the only thing I think that it buys you is based on whether you feed it something different And something different in some fundamental way And so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before was looking at something ab something about the difference between the the log FFT log power and the log magnitude F F spectrum and the filter bank And so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she s saying you know trying So the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference but that might not be the right number Right ? I mean maybe there s something about the variance that s that s not enough or maybe there s something else that that one could use but I think that for me the thing that that struck me was that you want to get something back here so here s here s an idea What about it you skip all the all the really clever things and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? This is f You have the log magnitude spectrum and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance",The professor explained that the task typically relied on R-one over R-zero as a measure. He thought that the team should explore the difference between the log FFT and the log magnitude FF spectrum and the filter bank. These were fundamentally different measures which could help the model. "PhD D: The feature the input ? The inputs are the fifteen the fifteen bases feature the with the new code And the other three features are ARE the variance of the difference between the two spectrum the variance of the auto correlation function except the the first point because half the height value is ARE zero and also ARE zero the first coefficient of the auto correlation function That is like the energy with these three feature Professor C: You would not do like ARE one over ARE zero or something like that ? I mean usually for voiced unvoiced you would do you would do something you would do energy but then you have something like spectral slope which is you get like ARE one ov over ARE zero or something like that PhD E: What are the ARE s ? I m sorry I missed it PhD D: Auto correlation ? Yes yes the variance of the auto correlation function that uses that Professor C: Ye Well that s the variance but if you just say `` what is `` I mean to first order one of the differences between voiced unvoiced and silence is energy Another one is but the other one is the spectral shape PhD D: I I will The spectral shape Professor C: and so ARE one over ARE zero is what you typically use for that PhD D: No I do not use that I can not use Professor C: No I m saying that s what people us typically use See because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` Grad A: Oh ARE ARE ARE zero Professor C: So if it s if it s if it s low energy but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that it s probably silence but if it s low energy and the spectrum looks like that it s probably unvoiced So if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced unvoiced you would pick something about the spectrum like ARE one over ARE zero and ARE zero or i i you know you would have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like zero crossing counts PhD D: Well I can also th use this Bec because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar It s not quite better","PhD D explained that voice-unvoice net took fifteen base features and three features of R as inputs. The R features were the variance of the difference between the two spectrums, variance of the auto-correlation function, and the first coefficient of the auto-correlation function. This method, however, was not that much better than the more typical method that the professor recalled." "Grad A: So for my class project I m I m tinkering with support vector machines ? something that we learned in class and basically just another method for doing classification And so I m going to apply that to compare it with the results by King and Taylor who did these using recurrent neural nets they recognized a set of phonological features and made a mapping from the MFCC s to these phonological features so I m going to do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if PhD E: So what s the advantage of support vector machines ? What Grad A: So support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data and so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns Professor C: I guess it they are sort of succinct and and they PhD E: Does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? Grad A: Right So the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is you have you have this feature space right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane between these two different classes and and so what it i at the end of the day what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary and remembers those and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set So given these these features or or these these examples pause pause critical examples which they call support f support vectors then given a new example if the new example falls away from the boundary in one direction then it s classified as being a part of this particular class and otherwise it s the other class PhD E: So why save the examples ? Why not just save what the boundary itself is ? Grad A: Mm Let s see that s a good question I Professor C: That s another way of doing it Right ? So so it I mean I I guess it s PhD E: Mmm Sort of an equivalent Professor C: You know it it goes back to nearest neighbor sort of thing right ? i i if is it eh w When is nearest neighbor good ? Well nearest neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples but of course if you have lots and lots of examples then it can take a while to to use nearest neighbor There s lots of look ups So a long time ago people talked about things where you would have a condensed nearest neighbor where you would you would you would pick out some representative examples which would be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in I I think s I think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing PhD E: I see So rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one you just pick a few critical ones and","Support vector machines were better at dealing with a lower amount of data, so they could do a reasonable job learning patterns in MFCC without too much work. They worked by finding an optimal separating plane. This was more efficient as the model picked only critical points as opposed to doing more computationally expensive k-means clustering." "Professor C: Cuz actually Mississippi State people did use support vector machines for speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities Grad A: they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple sigmoidal function Professor C: and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? And did not they like exponentiate or something Grad A: there s some there s like one over one plus the exponential or something like that Professor C: and then divide by the sum of them or ? Oh it i Oh so it is a sigmoidal PhD E: Did the did they get good results with that ? Professor C: I mean they are OK I I do not I do not think they were earth earth shattering but I think that this was a couple years ago I remember them doing it at some meeting and and I do not think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know it was the first time they tried it so so the you know the numbers were not incredibly good but there s you know it was th reasonable I I do not remember anymore I do not even remember what the task was it comment was Broadcast News or something I do not know","The professor recalled that people at Mississippi state were using support vector machines for speech recognition by estimating probabilities. The results were not significant, but they were reasonable." "PhD E: So in your in in the thing that you are doing you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? Grad A: Mm is this the class project or ? PhD E: Is that what you are Grad A: Right comment Right right f so for every phone there is there is a a vector of ones and zeros f corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not PhD E: Mm Mm And so when you do your wh I m what is the task for the class project ? To come up with the phones ? or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones Grad A: Oh Right to come up with a mapping from MFCC s or s some feature set to w to whether there s existence of a particular phonological feature And basically it s to learn a mapping from from the MFCC s to phonological features Is it did that answer your question ? PhD E: I guess I mean I m not sure what you what you are what you get out of your system Do you get out a a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector Grad A: No no I m not I m not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet Just it s it s basically it s it s really simple basically a detection of phonological features and cuz the So King and and Taylor did this with recurrent neural nets and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from MFCC s to phonological features and then later on once you have these phonological features then map that to phones",Grad A explained that his vector contained binary values for whether a phonological feature exists or not. The goal was to come up with a mapping from a feature set to the existence of a particular phonological feature. He was not doing the mapping yet. The goal was simply detecting features at the time. "Project Manager: That is nice Then because we only have thirty minutes left I will move on to the finance part which is pretty exciting to see if it is all possible what we want to do And I can tell you that we are going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros If we see I do not know if I have filled in correctly so just correct me if you see something wrong I counted two batteries But maybe we can also use one I do not know if it is possible It is rechargeable That is right That is two Euros off We need the advanced chip So there is not much to to save there Here we have the single curves we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro I do not know but I think the single curved is good for design and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control I think we have to keep that Then we have the case material supplements It is plastic It is the cheapest one we need So that is not much to save either But then the biggest costs are the buttons So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to keep our costs low Because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end so if we Let us fir first count the buttons we have now Because I Sixteen Nah that will be even more then Eighteen Euros So User Interface: seventeen with the help button Project Manager: I think we can discard the help and the mute button by pressing down volume long or pressing down a a number long That saves us one Euro already Because then we have got fifteen I think ? Marketing: No That would not be an option d I assume you would count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each right ? Project Manager: No those are one I think Marketing: Well think actually there are two buttons User Interface: it is just one button But There were two for one big button But they are more expensive than the small ones So Project Manager: but th it is not stated in this files So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one by pressing Marketing: Well I was thinking maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button Project Manager: That is possibility as well Marketing: That would cut the cost Project Manager: So And it is good for the design as well So you can make let us see If you make this Looks a bit like a cross Plus Min User Interface: But I do not do not know if if it is cheaper we have still got four buttons but just So Project Manager: th I think they count the materials User Interface: You got not not a butt button itself but on the On the chip you have got still four four buttons Project Manager: That is right That is right But I think because we have the advanced chip we can just count this as one button Marketing: But I think this really is four buttons anyhow Project Manager: But No but I think Maybe it is but then it seems to me that it is impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros Also the LC display I think it is I think it is too expensive for the display we use Industrial Designer: that is that is a big cost Project Manager: I think they try t Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip Project Manager: That is right but what is the big advantage of our remote then ? Marketing: Only the docking station I guess Industrial Designer: Which is not the the docking station is not even in this c s schematic So it is not even taken into the price Project Manager: That is extra That is extra That is right Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier Project Manager: Poland Something Polish supplier Do not you think we can if we can count this as v as one button and integrate th these buttons in three then we save a lot of money as well Industrial Designer: We we could save money on it But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? Marketing: that is what I am wondering Industrial Designer: My mother can not even send send an SMS message User Interface: Are we going to buy a a remote control when you can use it ? So We m we must stay below the below twelve fifty or Can not go Marketing: Well since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier more easy maybe it is feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little Especially since we have those nice features Project Manager: but we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros We do not have any more budget to develop it Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small User Interface: But it is possible to make one for twelve fifty Project Manager: It is If you leave out the LC display And if you use less buttons Say Or you can take the single chip User Interface: I do not think so Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one User Interface: But you can not use Project Manager: But then w Good looking User Interface: wi with n Oh with attractive o options So you can stay below twelve fifty So Project Manager: I think it is difficult as well Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost or just any other remote control Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers Then w Because then we save ten buttons Then we have five and one And and see If we have this one and we have got the advanced W we are getting close Marketing: But how does scrollwheel work here ? Project Manager: Then you will Or maybe you can scroll If you scroll you will see the numbers on the LCD display Until you have got the right number then you push it Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scrollwheel also Integrated scrollwheel pushbutton Project Manager: Alright It is got to scroll and push but then you you can push some other button as well Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second Project Manager: That is right So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second then it g turns to that channel Industrial Designer: So you will not need a button Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability Project Manager: But it would definitely crop cost a lot And we need the battery And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ? Industrial Designer: If you want to use an LCD screen you you need an advanced chip yes Project Manager: It has to be advanced And we can save a Euro by a flat design That is an option we can Then we are almost there Industrial Designer: if you v could just leave out one more button User Interface: or we have to skip the subtitle button Project Manager: but I think that is That is a big advantage User Interface: it is a big advantage Project Manager: Can we use can not we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? If you push it three times ? Marketing: Well think it is pretty much the teletext subtitles are right now you just push the teletext button go to page eight eight eight and teletext disappears But the subtitles stay there User Interface: But if you push the teletext button twice Industrial Designer: What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight Marketing: I think that is the case on most User Interface: It is One m one b a few buttons Project Manager: Ah that is not really that Marketing: Well that could be just like the scroll to eight click scroll to eight click scroll to eight click But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people who do not even know what a scrollwheel is Holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero With only five buttons on it And a scrollwheel Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement on television and in the in the guide you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel If you just make it real simple Because it saves it saves a lot of money And we can keep our LCD screen which can provide extra information How to use the scroll wheel How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles And it is good for the innovative design as well If you would erase these Mm eraser ? And we put Looks a bit odd maybe Marketing: That is a pretty big scroll wheel Project Manager: That is Something like that Then We have got the scrollwheel One two three four five buttons if we erase this one And these are two buttons then Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that And just If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scrollwheel So that would save two buttons If you do the same for the channel Project Manager: That is really a good good idea I think And it will make the use of the scroll wheel more obvious indeed So we make one for the volume one for the channel Plus scroll That is right So we have got one two three we can leave the teletext in if we want That is m that is better Marketing: So this is five buttons Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons perhaps you can go with the flat flat case And make it smaller overall So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the onoff button the screen right behi under that than the scroll button Project Manager: Mm and then you can Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons Marketing: Right now we have five User Interface: But you can make a f quite a big remote remote control for just the same price as a small one Just you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved It it is a bit Project Manager: It is it is more the moulds in which they are being made I think Single curved is really easy to just fill in And cases come right out of the machine And single curved you have to have a different different machine than a flat one I think this is a really easy one what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek what do you think ? Marketing: Well I still think we should go for the single curve design But then again all these changes are not really with me Industrial Designer: Richards argument was very good Marketing: But since we just have to Project Manager: We have to cut costs Marketing: I would rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote Project Manager: Ask for more money I am agreeing with the usability Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are Project Manager: But th I think we can then keep the single curved one Just to express our LCD screen a bit more So people will use it more and especially for the help functions it will be good if we have scroll bar scroll button It will be necessary to have good help function as well So this is scroll I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier Before we went on to the to the whole design But I am glad we could make a bit It is pretty different if you saw the last one than this one Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell Because if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff This is not familiar for them So we are going to have to do a lotta convincing them User Interface: But they know the scrollbuttons from old radios they cal also buttons like that for changing channels Project Manager: We can stick it out a bit Like a old old buttons Maybe that is recognisable for them as well That is a good one So I am afraid we have to move on And it is it is b less frightening I think If they see this design they think oh there are only five buttons and But we will see Marketing: That is true Might might be confusing too They would be like what ? Only five buttons ? But you are not sixty Project Manager: That is right I would buy it if I was six No I do not know What it costs under twelve and a half Euros ? No ? yes they are","When the group found out that they came across a fairly tight budget, they cut the number of batteries from 2 to 1 and chose plastic as the cheapest case material supplement. But they still kept the advanced chip, LCD screen, and docking station, all of which they considered to be the strength of the product. After that, they touched on the button issue and realized that that was where the biggest cost driver hid. As a hurry solution, they quickly discarded the help and the mute button, replaced buttons for the program with a scroll-wheel, and removed a volume button and a channel button to reduce cost." "Project Manager: I think we can discard the help and the mute button by pressing down volume long or pressing down a a number long That saves us one Euro already Because then we have got fifteen I think ? Marketing: No That would not be an option d I assume you would count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each right ? Project Manager: No those are one I think Marketing: Well think actually there are two buttons User Interface: it is just one button But There were two for one big button But they are more expensive than the small ones So Project Manager: but th it is not stated in this files So maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one by pressing Marketing: Well I was thinking maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button Project Manager: That is possibility as well Marketing: That would cut the cost Project Manager: So And it is good for the design as well So you can make let us see If you make this Looks a bit like a cross Plus Min User Interface: But I do not do not know if if it is cheaper we have still got four buttons but just So Project Manager: th I think they count the materials User Interface: You got not not a butt button itself but on the On the chip you have got still four four buttons Project Manager: That is right That is right But I think because we have the advanced chip we can just count this as one button Marketing: But I think this really is four buttons anyhow Project Manager: But No but I think Maybe it is but then it seems to me that it is impossible to get the twelve and a half Euros Also the LC display I think it is I think it is too expensive for the display we use Industrial Designer: that is that is a big cost Project Manager: I think they try t Industrial Designer: If we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip Project Manager: That is right but what is the big advantage of our remote then ? Marketing: Only the docking station I guess Industrial Designer: Which is not the the docking station is not even in this c s schematic So it is not even taken into the price Project Manager: That is extra That is extra That is right Marketing: Maybe we should to a different supplier Project Manager: Poland Something Polish supplier Do not you think we can if we can count this as v as one button and integrate th these buttons in three then we save a lot of money as well Industrial Designer: We we could save money on it But would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? Marketing: that is what I am wondering Industrial Designer: My mother can not even send send an SMS message User Interface: Are we going to buy a a remote control when you can use it ? So We m we must stay below the below twelve fifty or Can not go Marketing: Well since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier more easy maybe it is feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little Especially since we have those nice features Project Manager: but we have to stick to the twelve and a half Euros We do not have any more budget to develop it Industrial Designer: The margin will get too small User Interface: But it is possible to make one for twelve fifty Project Manager: It is If you leave out the LC display And if you use less buttons Say Or you can take the single chip User Interface: I do not think so Marketing: It would be a be a pretty rigid one User Interface: But you can not use Project Manager: But then w Good looking User Interface: wi with n Oh with attractive o options So you can stay below twelve fifty So Project Manager: I think it is difficult as well Marketing: Basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost or just any other remote control Project Manager: Or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers Then w Because then we save ten buttons Then we have five and one And and see If we have this one and we have got the advanced W we are getting close Marketing: But how does scrollwheel work here ? Project Manager: Then you will Or maybe you can scroll If you scroll you will see the numbers on the LCD display Until you have got the right number then you push it Marketing: That would bring up the price of the scrollwheel also Integrated scrollwheel pushbutton Project Manager: Alright It is got to scroll and push but then you you can push some other button as well Industrial Designer: You could just not scroll for a half a second Project Manager: That is right So if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second then it g turns to that channel Industrial Designer: So you will not need a button Marketing: I think that would be like the end of our usability Project Manager: But it would definitely crop cost a lot And we need the battery And the regular chip is not possible ? It has to be advanced ? Industrial Designer: If you want to use an LCD screen you you need an advanced chip yes Project Manager: It has to be advanced And we can save a Euro by a flat design That is an option we can Then we are almost there Industrial Designer: if you v could just leave out one more button User Interface: or we have to skip the subtitle button Project Manager: but I think that is That is a big advantage User Interface: it is a big advantage Project Manager: Can we use can not we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? If you push it three times ? Marketing: Well think it is pretty much the teletext subtitles are right now you just push the teletext button go to page eight eight eight and teletext disappears But the subtitles stay there User Interface: But if you push the teletext button twice Industrial Designer: What if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? Eight hundred eighty eight Marketing: I think that is the case on most User Interface: It is One m one b a few buttons Project Manager: Ah that is not really that Marketing: Well that could be just like the scroll to eight click scroll to eight click scroll to eight click But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people who do not even know what a scrollwheel is Holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero With only five buttons on it And a scrollwheel Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement on television and in the in the guide you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel If you just make it real simple Because it saves it saves a lot of money And we can keep our LCD screen which can provide extra information How to use the scroll wheel How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles And it is good for the innovative design as well If you would erase these Mm eraser ? And we put Looks a bit odd maybe Marketing: That is a pretty big scroll wheel Project Manager: That is Something like that Then We have got the scrollwheel One two three four five buttons if we erase this one And these are two buttons then Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that And just If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scrollwheel So that would save two buttons If you do the same for the channel Project Manager: That is really a good good idea I think And it will make the use of the scroll wheel more obvious indeed So we make one for the volume one for the channel Plus scroll That is right So we have got one two three we can leave the teletext in if we want That is m that is better Marketing: So this is five buttons","Firstly, when the group realized that cost was chiefly incurred by excessive buttons, they quickly decided to discard the help and the mute button. But then they found out that the primary cost drivers were 10 buttons for program numbers. To get rid of them, Project Manager boldly proposed replacing them with a scroll-wheel, which was finally accepted despite disputes over its unfriendly nature for elderly users. Also, the group agreed to remove a volume and a channel button by shifting the up-and-down function onto scroll-wheel and having radio buttons." "Marketing: Well that could be just like the scroll to eight click scroll to eight click scroll to eight click But then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people who do not even know what a scrollwheel is Holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero With only five buttons on it And a scrollwheel Project Manager: I think if you make a good advertisement on television and in the in the guide you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel If you just make it real simple Because it saves it saves a lot of money And we can keep our LCD screen which can provide extra information How to use the scroll wheel How to use the other bu buttons as subtitles And it is good for the innovative design as well If you would erase these Mm eraser ? And we put Looks a bit odd maybe Marketing: That is a pretty big scroll wheel Project Manager: That is Something like that Then We have got the scrollwheel One two three four five buttons if we erase this one And these are two buttons then Industrial Designer: We could make two buttons out of that And just If you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scrollwheel So that would save two buttons If you do the same for the channel Project Manager: That is really a good good idea I think And it will make the use of the scroll wheel more obvious indeed So we make one for the volume one for the channel Plus scroll That is right So we have got one two three we can leave the teletext in if we want That is m that is better Marketing: So this is five buttons Industrial Designer: If we leave out all those buttons perhaps you can go with the flat flat case And make it smaller overall So if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the onoff button the screen right behi under that than the scroll button Project Manager: Mm and then you can Industrial Designer: you get a a much smaller remote Project Manager: So we can decrease this one to four buttons Marketing: Right now we have five User Interface: But you can make a f quite a big remote remote control for just the same price as a small one Just you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved It it is a bit Project Manager: It is it is more the moulds in which they are being made I think Single curved is really easy to just fill in And cases come right out of the machine And single curved you have to have a different different machine than a flat one I think this is a really easy one what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? Freek what do you think ? Marketing: Well I still think we should go for the single curve design But then again all these changes are not really with me Industrial Designer: Richards argument was very good Marketing: But since we just have to Project Manager: We have to cut costs Marketing: I would rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote Project Manager: Ask for more money I am agreeing with the usability Marketing: Or do some market research and see what the options are Project Manager: But th I think we can then keep the single curved one Just to express our LCD screen a bit more So people will use it more and especially for the help functions it will be good if we have scroll bar scroll button It will be necessary to have good help function as well So this is scroll I think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier Before we went on to the to the whole design But I am glad we could make a bit It is pretty different if you saw the last one than this one Marketing: But this is not really like for the group we were making our remote This will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell Because if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff This is not familiar for them","First and foremost, Marketing believed that the elder generation expected to have ten buttons for the number one to zero, rather than a scroll-wheel with radio buttons, which would inevitably harm the usability. In this case, a lot of marketing would be required to convince elderly users, who were unfamiliar with fancy stuff like scroll-wheel at all. Additionally, he complained that the cost limit made it almost impossible to produce anything better than normal controls, and that he would not make those impelled changes if it was not for cost's sake." "Project Manager: No But we can go on with the project evaluation Let us see I can sit down I think We still have fifteen minutes left so we are nice on schedule Marketing: So I like set up all these criteria And evaluation of the thingy Project Manager: Evaluation criteria That is right That was the the point I forgot I should There we are Evaluation criteria We have got five minutes I think for those criteria No we have got fifteen minutes but Marketing: Kay so I did some literature study study and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier Translated it into criteria which would be these is the remote fancy ? The shape look and feel Innovative ? What new functions are there ? easy to use ? learnability is a very important factor here is it functional ? Are there not too many functions among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there are they useful ? And the cost The target group Is the remote really for the group we are making it for ? And recognability If our company is If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And So we are supposed to evaluate it right now Let us see Oh I have to say this was a little hard because the minutes of our last meeting were not here Project Manager: that is because my pen failed to upload his data but it is it is giving errors by downloading the software Marketing: Is the design fancy on a scale of one to seven ? Project Manager: I think it is fancy Marketing: We all go for six ? Good is the design innovative ? I think so with our LCD screen docking station scrollbuttons Project Manager: So we have got twenty cents for our docking station huh ? Marketing: Is the design easy to use ? Project Manager: That is a bit dodgy Marketing: Well Would be for us But User Interface: For old people I I Project Manager: I would say four Four or five between Between four or five Marketing: I would go for four too Is the design functional ? do we have all functions that we want to include ? I think we do Do we have too many functions ? I do not think so It is pretty slim Seven Oh and do we take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? Like it getting lost and RSI influences ? Industrial Designer: Mm we have not thought of that one Project Manager: I had them worked out Mm They are ugly not very functional and getting lost Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits ? Does the design fit the group of focus ? Industrial Designer: I think that is a three Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button I think it is I think it is better Marketing: I think it does not User Interface: We have to test it s But Industrial Designer: I still I think it is too m too fancy Too too flashy Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control Project Manager: I would give it a four Marketing: I am not sure I think I would go for two User Interface: I go for three So Project Manager: Then we have to do the three It is the Marketing: Kay Is the company company recognisable ? Well we have the logo there Project Manager: And they want to put fashion in their products in the slogan of the company And we have the removable front cases So I think it is very recognisable Marketing: So that will be this I was also supposed to calculate the score but thought we would have another private thingy after this Project Manager: We have got a calculate it Mm ? Marketing: Is this Like after this are we done ? Or Project Manager: N We have going to We are going to evaluate it Marketing: We are going to go to our other room again Well anyhow These are seven factors times seven is forty something Two ? No Nine ? minus one Minus three minus four Minus four So that would be minus eight Forty one out of forty nine Project Manager: Forty one That is Around eighty percent Marketing: Guess I will just type that in on the bottom here Project Manager: That is eighty four percent I think that is a pretty nice score Marketing: Kay So that will be the evaluation Project Manager: Thank you So that brings us to the project evaluation Yep Thank you Project process Did we move through the right phases you think ? Along the process ? Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier In the design phase Project Manager: That is right So lack of information about prices Satisfaction Was there room for creativity ? It is because of the finance sheet Industrial Designer: there w there was enough room but the finance Marketing: And I would have liked to go for the younger users also And just to be able to access internet and get something of your own Project Manager: Restrictions Internet access Kay Leadership Was it clear what everybody had to do according to their roles and functions ? ? Teamwork ? Did it work out ? Working together ? Also you two of you with the last phase ? Industrial Designer: The tasks are very structured so you can just do step by step and it is very easy Project Manager: tasks Were the means sufficient for the tasks we had to do ? Or were they too much ? Industrial Designer: Well the smartboard the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass but The digital the digital pen is very nice Project Manager: If it wants to download its data Failed download Smartboard was irritating So you rather wanted to have a flipover ? Or something else ? Industrial Designer: A flipover or a more precise digit Project Manager: Faster as well I think User Interface: But if you want to share of when you make a picture like this on the presentation it is easier to share it with other people so you can sh save it and put it on the internet or in shared f folder or sh shared directory Marketing: I tried to open the file on my laptop Project Manager: you need a smart board application I think But I think you can User Interface: T can can you export it like a Project Manager: Should be possible you can export it as image Marketing: Should have done that then Project Manager: So the sharing of the information was was ? pen is here on the table That is nice Have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? Or User Interface: maybe when we n just give the numbers of of o one of out of s sev it is easier to to do the th things that are like that on a computer so just l like at you university Project Manager: So So everybody puts his own score And then it mediates the score and you can get one That is better So that is How do we call ? Evaluation criteria Mm any more ideas ? Or questions about the project ? Or about the product ? Because I think then that we get to our last sheet Are the costs within the budget ? Industrial Designer: Considering we are not going to make a docking station Project Manager: Do we Docking station That is a good point But maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? and I think you can compensate that as well So I think that should not be the biggest problem because it is very cheap to make as well Do we think we going to get the twelve and a half million ? Or what was it ? Fifteen fifteen million I think we will If we going to export this product It is innovative Especially in America People are pretty decadent Sometimes Marketing: still I think I mean if we are n going to make a scrollbutton anyway it would be more for the younger people than for the older people So maybe we should just refocus Project Manager: Just put it on the market for everybody You can you can change markets where by changing the front covers Marketing: Or specifically for younger people Project Manager: That is one thing you can change it with So you can also try to reach the younger people by putting fancy covers on on the market Just as a test See how it works That is I think a good advantage Marketing: I think then it would be way more popular with younger people than it is than would be with older people Even if it were their covers Project Manager: then I think we can have our little celebration right now I think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire I think User Interface: Where is the champagne ? Project Manager: I do not know I did not get a message from the from ending of the Oh I think I have one now Five more minutes ? Oh that is nice Then we still have some questions If somebody has some questions they can ask them now Or we can put these in the project folder as well Maybe that is Export as picture I think This is another network I guess Does somebody see the project folder ? I do not My Documents User Interface: maybe they will save it So Project Manager: I will just put it in My Documents","Though Project Manager forgot to prepare evaluation criteria beforehand, Marketing had analyzed project requirements and brought forward a systematic set of criteria, according to which product was graded by the whole group. Then, under the guidance of Project Manager, the group evaluated the project process. Eventually, the meeting stepped into the closing phase." "Marketing: Kay so I did some literature study study and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier Translated it into criteria which would be these is the remote fancy ? The shape look and feel Innovative ? What new functions are there ? easy to use ? learnability is a very important factor here is it functional ? Are there not too many functions among the functions ? And are the those functions that are there are they useful ? And the cost The target group Is the remote really for the group we are making it for ? And recognability If our company is If it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? And So we are supposed to evaluate it right now Let us see Oh I have to say this was a little hard because the minutes of our last meeting were not here Project Manager: that is because my pen failed to upload his data but it is it is giving errors by downloading the software Marketing: Is the design fancy on a scale of one to seven ? Project Manager: I think it is fancy Marketing: We all go for six ? Good is the design innovative ? I think so with our LCD screen docking station scrollbuttons Project Manager: So we have got twenty cents for our docking station huh ? Marketing: Is the design easy to use ? Project Manager: That is a bit dodgy Marketing: Well Would be for us But User Interface: For old people I I Project Manager: I would say four Four or five between Between four or five Marketing: I would go for four too Is the design functional ? do we have all functions that we want to include ? I think we do Do we have too many functions ? I do not think so It is pretty slim Seven Oh and do we take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? Like it getting lost and RSI influences ? Industrial Designer: Mm we have not thought of that one Project Manager: I had them worked out Mm They are ugly not very functional and getting lost Marketing: Are the production costs within the preset limits ? Does the design fit the group of focus ? Industrial Designer: I think that is a three Project Manager: No I think with our new radio button I think it is I think it is better Marketing: I think it does not User Interface: We have to test it s But Industrial Designer: I still I think it is too m too fancy Too too flashy Marketing: I think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control Project Manager: I would give it a four Marketing: I am not sure I think I would go for two User Interface: I go for three So Project Manager: Then we have to do the three It is the Marketing: Kay Is the company company recognisable ? Well we have the logo there Project Manager: And they want to put fashion in their products in the slogan of the company And we have the removable front cases So I think it is very recognisable","On the basis of literature study and requirements analysis carried out by Marketing, specific criteria were as follows: design innovation, learnability, functionality, utility, cost, target customer, recognizability, etc. After the group brought forward a score for each in sequence, the total score was calculated as 84%, which was acknowledged as a nice score." "Marketing: Kay So that will be the evaluation Project Manager: Thank you So that brings us to the project evaluation Yep Thank you Project process Did we move through the right phases you think ? Along the process ? Marketing: Think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier In the design phase Project Manager: That is right So lack of information about prices","When it came to processing evaluation, though Industrial Designer appeared to think highly of Project Manager's arrangements, Marketing clearly voiced his dissent. as he explained, it is obvious that financial issues were touched on too late, making it imperative to further adjust to the final design during budget control. Project Manager himself admitted that there existed a lack of information about prices, which in fact led to a number of unrealistic dialogues about costly functions like recognition." "Industrial Designer: Yep So I will start by the the basic one that fits into eight Euros actually right seven eight Euros and well first for both they have a special shape maybe the designer can explain better than me but it is like a surf board And you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf TV maybe the web and it is kind of interesting shape because unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff And also it is not too far from a mobile So people are used to that kind of shape right Do not take care too much about the colour because w we do not take User Interface: Now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now Industrial Designer: So here would be basically the the the infrared led the onoff button in red Here would be the volume On the on the left easy to turn on t and off And so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on Matthew User Interface: Also so you have browsing the channels actually so you can go up and down the channels if you have a video or something you can forward back Industrial Designer: How can you change from VCR to TV by the way ? User Interface: Oh no no no this is a single this this is a model with just the TV one No no just sorry this is a standard TV one we are not talking about that So and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits The extra two are for having or giving an option for having more than one channel And the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that Actually Marketing: it is it is t a very basic remote then it is only User Interface: It is a very basic minimal thing which you can which is which is also available in the market actually that is what it that it i and would cost us to build it about eight Euros Industrial Designer: Seven eight ei eight Euros Project Manager: Exce except for the for the special shape the surfing board it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons Marketing: Thanks I like the volume control that is good User Interface: Th this is a magic one but I know we do not want to talk about that i i i it is a very futuristic it is like it is like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future it can come Marketing: So it does not actually have buttons User Interface: So that then what we look t Marketing: Did you want to see ? Project Manager: Mmhmm no you can carry on I just look how it feels all Yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone I really want to talk to it Marketing: It will not talk back Project Manager: So but but continue with your User Interface: then the this is the a more a little smooth and it gives a lot of functionality in this way so all we have th you see there are only six keys but do not worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here And so they have more space actually and it is easy to use this and you have so this is a standard infrared eye and then you have a power button which l volume what you have and then other than that you have channel up and down and f slow pause or s slow lo s pause or stop and then you can you have a LCD display here and y this is a functional thing which can change like it is a toggle switch which could change the function say y you press it Project Manager: From DVD player to television or something Industrial Designer: Exactly To audio and to video on demand User Interface: I really can change it Instead of having many switches y Project Manager: Yes and and and then you get feedback via the LCD User Interface: The LCD can display what is that on that and well you can have a integrated microphone over here Industrial Designer: This is the orange button the microphone User Interface: or in the button th here so which can basically you want to do a speech recognition and that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the on your on your display And here is a small LED which is like blinking one which tells you like are you running out of the battery and which is can be useful for the locating as I was talking earlier And well then we have a cover basically basically you do not need much of the time this when you need you can use it and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover Project Manager: but but but but i in there when this is closed will it also cover up the LCD screen ? User Interface: It is basically to do that Project Manager: But but the LCD screen I mean is a very well an eyeattracting feature which should not be should not be User Interface: Actually when you are watching the TV when you are watching anything or listening to them you hardly care about what is getting displayed here Project Manager: That th that is true User Interface: you know you want to and this gives a protection to the LCD actually giving a cover to that actually Gives a protection because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec Project Manager: Mmhmm Mmhmm Yes Yes more robust User Interface: it is more robust that way And you have very good chances Industrial Designer: It is low weight You have to see the the components we put inside is very low weight So the the cost is actually a bit more it is it is it is sixteen Francs Marketing: So it is well outside the budget then Industrial Designer: Then it is out of budget But the the main point we we talk about that with our manufacturer And they say basically that the SR system would be something like three Francs per item Marketing: That is on top of the sixteen or is it part of that ? Industrial Designer: No no no part of that Marketing: So that takes it down to thirteen Euros without the speech recognition User Interface: Well if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more some more keys if you want to you know Industrial Designer: Well I think th th we should stick with a number of keys because if we add too much then User Interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything Marketing: What is this one on the side ? User Interface: Ah that is for the it is kind of a LED for indicating your battery and as well as it is like a blinking one you can keep it aside Marketing: I like the shape of them I do like the the size and the the shape","Both the devices had the special shape, like the surf-board. The first prototype was a pretty simple design with LCD display and an on-off button in red. It was easy to use and could only be used for the TV mode. After all, the team concluded that it was a standard design except for its special shape that made it look adorable. On the contrary, the second prototype was advanced in its speech recognition function and looked like a fashion mobile phone. It came with six key buttons and one orange one for the microphone. If the user would like a speech recognition and a lot of information on the channel could be displayed directly on LCD display. Also, the components for the two designs were low in weight and there was LED to indicate the battery usage, making it convenient to use. To conclude, Marketing fancied the second one's size and shape." "Marketing: Basically this is what we have talked about already from the marketing point of view We just want to make sure that we have taken into account Project Manager: just do it quickly if if we al already Marketing: So it is just a shortlist of criteria on the things that we have identified as being important to selling the product we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we will make an evaluation based on that so just average the score of those items so These are the things we identified as being important the three things were look and feel innovation and ease of use were the three important components appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic And then goin following the company motto following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well So well do you want to go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we want to discuss them further and then evaluate them ?","Marketing recalled what the team had identified as being important to sell the product for both the devices and made a list of features from the marketing point of view. For both of the prototypes, Marketing asked the team to give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature. For instance, look and feel, innovation and ease of use, were the three important components that Marketing wanted the team to discuss about. This might help with the conclusion whether the product was appealing to the correct demographic and incorporated the fashion trend into it." "Project Manager: n no why not why not discuss discuss it now Marketing: So f just go through onto the whiteboard I guess Not sure how this is going to come out So the first one was really very far below budget would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? Because if we are only going to make it for eight Euros then we have a Project Manager: Mm well my my personal view is w when when this one is eight Euros we must think how can we improve it And then I mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half Euro and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik quite fixed on twenty five Euros so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer he can have for twenty five Euro Marketing: so look and feel innovation User Interface: And now it easy to use Marketing: Mmhmm And trends Oh you following the idea of using the removable covers on these ? Is that part of both of them or ? Project Manager: well w w we can still discuss that So and together with evaluating this we we might come with new ideas I mean adding things or removing of options because they are too expensive but I have received a framework which we can do this I mean did you have this this Excel sheet ? No this is these are the the the latest prices of our production production unit for several components so we can see whether the the price is is within the twelve Euro fifty cents So maybe we can start with this calling this one Marketing: Yep So it is the pink Project Manager: Th th this is the first design Marketing: And the other ones green so look and feel ? Where one is I have broken the pen again S Get that one w ones bad and sevens the best Sorry ones true and sevens false Ones the best So on a scale of one to seven ? Project Manager: Kay So Look and feel Well you already feel that pretty much I think In i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good is very good in your hand so I I I would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel But that is just half we should also consider look and then i it looks quite conventional Do not you agree ? Marketing: On the scale you it is between functional and fancy basically we are looking at Project Manager: So maybe two Ma ma ma ma maybe say say five I It is my opinion but I do not know what what User Interface: Well I will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it is like the surf as you say you know It though the look is fine but still I will give four in that case Project Manager: then we settle on four Kay Can you maybe fix the other Industrial Designer: If you press like this not like this then you User Interface: C can you get the batteries ? No no the battery has fallen down Marketing: Batterys low is not it the ink ? The b that is the that that one ? User Interface: No no it is not that it is how to close a battery ? Now it should be Marketing: Mm No I think it is lost a battery Project Manager: Mm try it just try it Marketing: No it is It would still write but it would not pick it up with the sensors User Interface: Is there another battery there ? Oh Marketing: You got a second ? Well we will not be able to tell Project Manager: Yes it it has a mm Marketing: Did it come out ? Good Because we will be able to see it still even if it was not working it is just a normal whiteboard marker but it would not be picked up on the the actual whiteboard And the other one ? I think it is slightly better it is hard to tell from just the plasticine Project Manager: When we want to include I I I am doubting about this this component It it it it breaks in your User Interface: No actually this is this is not going to protrude actually it it is n i it is jus Industrial Designer: It is not a button it is a led it is a User Interface: It is a led actually which which will be covering in a curve Industrial Designer: Ac actually it should be embedded Project Manager: Mm yes I see mm User Interface: It is will be embedded there so it will not be really you know protruding or something Industrial Designer: you can push push it again you can push it Marketing: The other thing is is the left hand one protruding ? Because if people are left handed they want to use the other hand maybe it will not work so well User Interface: No you it it not protruding actually it will go in better into that Marketing: I would say two or three for that one personally Probably more towards three than two Project Manager: I think the look is better but the feel is is is worse So so I would also say this is four But w w do you what do you think ? User Interface: it is fine I think My just that the feel is that you right now you you do not see the feel because right for example if you press it quite inside now like this now it is embedded one This is how embedded one will Project Manager: Yes it basically is the same shape User Interface: It is a bas basically the same thing actually You will be Except that in this c Industrial Designer: And the LCD makes it better User Interface: And you might have a slight thing for to forward and Industrial Designer: So I will say two Marketing: it is d it is definitely more fancier than that one Industrial Designer: I would say two three Marketing: So consensus ? Two or three ? kay Innovation The first one not really muc Industrial Designer: Basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market User Interface: No but except for the design of the surf Marketing: What What features are we actually including ? Are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? There is nothing like that ? User Interface: I think it is more of the feel Marketing: But th is there any there is no actual innovation in that at all it is just a straightout remote control Project Manager: The only innova innovation is the shape Marketing: So there is no this look and feel thing though that is not a technological innovation So I would be up for seven for innovation Industrial Designer: And the And the second one is really state of the art in terms of innovation And with many more functionalities and can open and close the the bottom part Project Manager: Yes A and the LCD screen is That is that is that is well it is quite innovative Industrial Designer: And all the scrolling buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this could put it at one or two I would say Personally Marketing: So what is it what are the innovations with this ? Got the LCD screen Is that in this one though ? Is this because this is the Th th there were different options we discussed then we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget Project Manager: We just diske discuss it as you designed it and then we will will try to get it in the budget Marketing: So the cost for these were what was the cost for the first one ? Eight Euros ? Industrial Designer: Eight Well actually we have to check again Marketing: And this one was sixteen Euros So Innovation for this one is two ? One ? User Interface: It is a two I would say two Industrial Designer: W W un to be one what would do we nee actually I do not see one would would be without buttons Marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation I believe it Industrial Designer: So maybe we can put one Project Manager: This this is it w with the speech recognition ? Industrial Designer: It is using speech recognition Project Manager: Gi given that that it works Marketing: Give it a one ? Project Manager: then it is I think one Industrial Designer: So the first one is really standard so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it User Interface: He is used to it act They are used to it actually Marketing: Yep So that is maybe a a two for ease of use Industrial Designer: the other one is quite easy though though User Interface: though it has more functionality I think it should not be for the user to learn it actually It should not be diffi Marketing: So maybe a three or a four User Interface: actually in fact I think it will be Industrial Designer: maybe sometimes people get scared with the number of buttons And there is a like I would say three Or maybe four Marketing: Consensus ? Three or four ? User Interface: Well we have reduced the keys actually you see Three is fine with me Industrial Designer: because it is n it is not like a big one with one hundred buttons or so User Interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually it is not so easy like this one the normal Project Manager: Yes but then when when he is used to it i i it is quite easy So so I think th three is good User Interface: Initially there there is a lot of effort Project Manager: What is the next ? Marketing: how well it goes to the target demographic So we are d we are still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? Project Manager: Twe twenty to forty yes that is Industrial Designer: This one would be for grandmothers User Interface: Oh no this would I I would I would give this model to the old people actually Marketing: So sh completely changed our demographic there it is not part of the the funky young thing Project Manager: Well exce except for the surfing shape I mean that is that is something which which has an appeal on this group I think Marketing: If it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then I can imagine it being applying to the the demographic That is it is still Ye Project Manager: Mm w w w we after this we can can consider for instance making this more attractive to to the demographic Marketing: Mm Because we have got room we have got some budget there to add a few things to it Project Manager: But as it is now I w would say mm six something Industrial Designer: because it is so important it is i it was written that it really so important the the the look and taking care of its it targets the right range of people User Interface: but but if you sell it in the market it is going to be cheap actually Marketing: But it is going to be cheap whatever though it was set with i we have got a set price User Interface: And people can still decide to use the cheaper one Industrial Designer: But for us it is we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five Euros Marketing: There is nothing that would make me spend an extra k few Euros on that one rather than another one Project Manager: Ju just think twenty five Euros I mean it is not going to be cheaper User Interface: So in that case well it is fine then Marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? It is got the got the the toys in it it is got the LCD screen Project Manager: tha tha tha tha tha that is I think it is better because of the LCD screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the on the and on the Industrial Designer: And if you want to target if we we wish to to sell four millions of this I think for this audience we need absolutely the LCD screen Project Manager: Mm So the LCD screen attracts Marketing: I think especially if we are going to n have an LCD screen on a low range product then that is good Project Manager: Because it Mm ma maybe that is something to consider yes Marketing: I would probably go with three again for that one User Interface: I think it is it has more market actually Industrial Designer: Or even Even one and two Or two Project Manager: No s say t two User Interface: two Because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that Because then you you have it d you have lot of things which you can include Marketing: Yep And especially I guess because this has the speech recognition as well and that makes it more appealing it is more of a a new fun toy User Interface: We have to practically test it The field test will tell you how good Marketing: So the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel So as it is not really doing either of them Industrial Designer: Spongy that means that it goes in in the water Marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well I know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kind of spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but I am thinking one of the Nokias that is got like you ca it has not got individual buttons it is got just a one bit on it and so you can that feels kind of spongy Industrial Designer: But this one includes this feature right ? Spongy buttons Marketing: So it is sort of User Interface: We we we we we it is the way they are going to be actually Industrial Designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it fruit and and veggie Marketing: But that is if you are using the covers Project Manager: And the then we can al Marketing: Or is it just one Project Manager: yes We can we can consider is it possible do you think to to make a cover for s such a phone ? I mean Marketing: Well they make it for mobiles it can not be that much more complicated User Interface: But why do you want to cover that actually ? In that w in the mod Project Manager: Well just with the with the flexible plastic Marketing: So you got the option of having different colours or different textures Project Manager: I th I th I think User Interface: y are you sure ? I think it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone Project Manager: O o or just two things which can be put on each other so Maybe we can but we have to decide it we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance to to these covers and s now try to invest in the in in the features Marketing: I think the if we do the cover that is really going with the companys philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics it let us people have the latest fashion","The team agreed that although the cover was movable, the case design was moderate. Also, the way the device could be held was not attractive and easy for all, since the left-handed people would choose to use it with the other hand, which made it really annoying. When it came to innovation, Industrial Designer believed basically there was no innovation in the first one compared to what existed in the market. However, the second design was extremely innovative as it had incorporated all the scrolling buttons and its automatic speech recognition function. Besides, the two products aimed at the target customers well, with the first standard one for the old group while the second one for those between twenty to forty five. Lastly, the team concluded that they had successfully answered the company's philosophy of having the fashion in electronics." "Marketing: That will basically take us down to the budget Project Manager: But I am now did y did you work with the same prices that I have here ? Industrial Designer: So I I give I just give a call with the manufacturer and I explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen Fr Euros unfortunately we did not see this chip Matthew so maybe we have to recap with this one User Interface: Maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this Project Manager: Well yes well re reconsider it So let us let us try to to model this this phone in this sheet what kind of energy source I I we did not speak about that It is a it is a normal battery or User Interface: it migh It it will need more than a conventional one it will not be just maybe you might use a AA battery actually What do you say Mael ? Industrial Designer: For this one it is a normal battery Project Manager: Yes Just so one battery Kay Electronics given speech recognition I think w you should go for the less fancy chip yes or sample sensor yes Yes this one Case ? Marketing: it is going to be more than just the biggest case definitely Industrial Designer: So which one are we talking to ? User Interface: Are you talking about this or that ? Project Manager: Oh yes we are talking about but they have the same shape Marketing: Mm They are both going to be not basic cases Project Manager: So th th this would be double curves ? Kay plastic would be the material Industrial Designer: Is it zero Franc ? Project Manager: special colour now we leave it to the covers Marketing: So now we are either going button or LCDs LCD display Industrial Designer: LCD is It is Just say LCD Marketing: Is that price per unit or for the whole thing ? Project Manager: th now this is per per unit this number of components Marketing: So it would need twelve buttons User Interface: we might need a scroll wheel right for that ? Industrial Designer: No but for this one it is twelve Euro User Interface: No for that one also Project Manager: So one two three four five six seven eight nine t Yes Twelve I believe So this comes to eighteen Marketing: Mm And that is without any special button supplements User Interface: one scroll wheel you might need Marketing: So we would have a special colour special form and special material on all of them They are not just standard buttons Project Manager: So I think but th do you agree th that thi Industrial Designer: Wait a minute it is not it is not double curved it is single curved right ? Because it is there is no like Marketing: But I thought it would be curved on two it is like it is curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well that is what I thought Project Manager: Yes I am I am no I am no I am not sh sure Yes I kno undes I understand what you mean yes Industrial Designer: it is you know this curve like this so it is w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are Marketing: You talking about concave curves ? Industrial Designer: So I think we can put Marketing: You think a single curved ? Industrial Designer: the single curved in the sixteen That makes seventeen And what are just The bt buttons we have twelve buttons are you sure ? Marketing: We have more we have got those the scroll wheel on the side Industrial Designer: I had a bad bad estimation Project Manager: we have we have not talk about a but that is no a is very exp inexpensive I believe but it is not in the list Marketing: We have got a scroll wheel for the volume do not we or is it some other thing that is not on there Project Manager: W ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides so for higher and lower ? Marketing: Kay we have only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast Industrial Designer: Yes a kind of scroll wheel Marketing: So this is even more than the than the cost you gave the sixteen Euros Industrial Designer: so based on that where is the es sample speaker User Interface: That is the sample sensor and sample speaker We just need that actually We need one Project Manager: We are We We could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip but then we can not have the the speech recognition yes ? Yes ? So so w when we w a this would this would be cutting the speech recognition Industrial Designer: But the but if you have the near the LCD you can choose select between you know like uni universal between audio TV and VCR and this needs a needs a advanced chip User Interface: I think it is going to be y y Industrial Designer: I think regular today we you can do that with regular chip User Interface: it is th with the regular chip Project Manager: Say say it is regular regular chip and we still on fifteen Industrial Designer: So And what about the number of buttons buttons my Matthew ? Project Manager: Yes but that maybe Well we can just say Industrial Designer: When you look at this w this you item Project Manager: Ca l we are just when we just want to to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty So is it possible ? Marketing: But that is seven basic buttons right seven buttons without any addson without special colours or form or material User Interface: That will be then we have have to ask the user to press it several times Industrial Designer: You can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low Project Manager: he he he I I Marketing: So the LCD display is is three Francs sorry three Euros by itself Industrial Designer: And we do not want to to change that right ? We we really want a LCD other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market Project Manager: Otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal thing like this Marketing: So twelve Euro fifty we got two off of the battery Industrial Designer: And I do not know Marketing: we can not do anything about that so ten fifty if we want an LCD dispra display that is seven fifty so we have got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons And the chip Sorry the chips up there already So we are going to have to scale this down to get within budget there is no doubt about that Industrial Designer: So wha what what each of us think about the because it is measure point the LCD Do you think it is important ? User Interface: Or we could even replace them by buttons actually Industrial Designer: Because sometimes whe when you watch the TV in fact you have a big display and maybe you do not need one more in your hands ? I do not know I am just asking User Interface: A actually it depends it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons or and you will have LCD display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two Euros at least Marketing: Mm I think unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the LCD display User Interface: so we can get rid of it and then add a couple of buttons Industrial Designer: But do we want that ? On the market point of view What do you think LCD is a major feature or ? Marketing: For the price it is going to be what we can afford and it is looking like we can not afford the LCD display there is no way we can get it in there Mm Project Manager: I think we have to come to a decision now just I I think we we what we just do i is vote about the the LCD display Industrial Designer: You assume you want a democratic voyt vote Project Manager: Yes Yes One man one vote S so who thinks the the LCD disply display should be i should be in it ? Marketing: I th I would like t it to be in but I can not see it happening I can not see it fitting in Bu y you are a power voter veto anyway as Project Manager User Interface: but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that Marketing: well we have to make a decision now that is it Project Manager: So having an LCD s display is just have very very limited amount of buttons Is that acceptable ? Ca can I have can the functions be implement in an You have you you agree User Interface: W I I I just Project Manager: So hav hav having seven buttons instead of twelve So that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons Industrial Designer: Because one th show me that actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three possibilities for each of the three here Here one at the middle and at the bottom Marketing: Mm I think then we we are really losing ease of use User Interface: That will create another problem For the people to use it It is not going to be easy Doing that Project Manager: I I think we should we should cut the LCD screen That that is that is my opinion User Interface: No it is you cut the LCD screen and introduce two more buttons Marketing: So LCDs out is speech rec out now ? We have Industrial Designer: The speech recognition is out Because of the budget Project Manager: w we now we can just Marketing: So are we basically back to the original one now back to the first version ? Which turns out to be on budget exactly pretty much With these new costings So just look at forget that one and look at that one now Project Manager: Yes Yes I th I th I think w we just go for this one and that that now twelve Euros is the is is the price","The first design obviously met the requirements of the budget so the team focused on the second one to see whether the combination of the two designs could together form an innovative design but was under the budget at the same time. To cut costs, the Project Manager first suggested using normal chips only in exchange for the speech recognition function. The special color was left to the case and it was designed as curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well. Later, the team had argued a lot whether to eliminate the number of buttons or to discard LCD displays. However, if the number of buttons were to be eliminated, it would be far more complicated to use the device, since users must press one button several times to get to the channel. After a vote and discussion about the cost, the team decided to discard both the LCD display and the speech recognition functions since they were really expensive and the later one could not work without the existence of the former one." "Marketing: It is so first of all the method that I used was by doing some marketing research by doing research on some interviews that were conducted And then some internet research And I was sent a report that was I think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed And so I will show you some of the results from that which I think will be helpful here are some of the findings They said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls And seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly Which is a fairly significant number I would say And eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy So I think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look I think that is definitely important they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user Seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot And if anyone could clarify what that means ? User Interface: Is is it j just just Marketing: Zap does that just mean like changing the channel ? and fifty percent of the users say that they are only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control And there was something else they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons And some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all Of course channel selection is used the most frequently And then teletext was the next Volume and then power And then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used So I think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button the biggest user frustrations as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere and so I think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea They said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote And twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for RSI User Interface: Just repetitive strain injury I think That is what I guess Marketing: And so bas as far as speech recognition goes the younger group looks like they are all for it From the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more And it kind of just went down incrementally The groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it is worth investing in this At least if we are targeting the younger groups And so in conclusion Some things that I drew from this are that I think we were correct We definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore So you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons get rid of the ones that do not seem to be serving much purpose And then lastly I thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition And that is it","Through market research, Marketing believed that the modern appearance of the remote control is important. Useless buttons can be combined or multi-functional remote control can be designed. Voice recognition function and positioning function are necessary." "User Interface: Having just listened to what Corinne just said I will draw on some of the things as well Some things that sort of relevant to what I want to say Kay so I am just going to approach the technical functions design the method I used was to explore the technical functions of a remote control And t s simplest approach that I came to is is to change programme and operate an electronic device remotely I mean that is an obvious thing to say but it is not attached to the device that you want to control I had some things sent to me Not very much To look at similar devices defined in some them And then the personal preferences that I will suggest we discussed a universal one like it is just been brought up again then But I think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it because you would need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies I am not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself but you have to i they are a nightmare to use You have to set them reset them to everything and that would only add buttons Whereas I think the aim is to take away buttons So I think it would be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for TVs or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications if if the aim is to get something that is unique in design here here is just two pictures of remote controls They are just simple TV remote controls But one is usercentred That is the one on the left And you can straight away see there is less buttons And the other one is engineercentred where that is more specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it is trying to control which appeals more to the product that we want and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be usercentred Fewer buttons simpler to use and if ten percent is hidden away if ten percent is what is used maybe the other fifty percent the buttons that are used very rarely like programming they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they are hidden away And the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across and finally sort I have sort of covered that our product I think should be user interface orientated Like I said to concentrate on TV remote control a universal remote might be too complex and as what it the major findings market researchers have said it is the image and the appearance that people di dislike So that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend And that is it Project Manager: What was your last conclusion on that one ? Focus on the i User Interface: On something on the image of it the f the actual design","User Interface advocated to adjust to meet the needs of users from the perspective of technical function design. It is mainly user-centred, reducing buttons and making it easier to use. In addition, User Interface suggested that the general remote controller proposed by marketing will increase the budget and button, so the research should be stopped and focused on the remote control's appearance design." "Industrial Designer: Going To talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there Right So unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it so I am going to do a lot of the stuff on the board just This is the basic basic premise of a remote control the basic function is to send messages to another system so much is clear An energy source feeds an integrated circuit like a chip that can compose messages Often in the form of infrared bits This is the most mostly used there is also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system parts are cheaper as well A user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages This is where my people screwed up basically So I am going to explain that on the board rather what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there We will start with an energy source Right which is usually a battery right ? Since it is not feasible to add a cable to that This energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself which can be buttons whatever which in fact controls a chip Right ? This is the user interface and there we have the chip the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp That sends out the signal Of course the signal differs accordingly depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp And Of course that is controlled the chip itself is controlled by the user interface The way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well so that you know that it is working basically You press something you get a response Which is also comparatively important on one of those devices Now this what we are talking about here or what I think should be discussed are these two components mostly The the energy source for one thing can be altered What we probably can not alter is of course the infrared the sending device basically the infrared lamp We can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp Right ? These two are components that we have to use and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing the lamp can be put onto the desi the device It c it does not have to be there This can be discussed as well The user interface That is something we can also discuss as we have heard speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment Speech recognition interface we do not know that Or if we just do the usual button thing Or we have a touch pad or something like that that is something we can discuss And of course the energy source Batteries Solar cells Who knows ? Of course it is always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough developed enough But that is like I s I suppose rather up to marketing and not to Project Manager: So we could the the Industrial Designer: to the industrial design department Project Manager: the more complex we make it of course the more expensive Industrial Designer: Expensive it is going to be get Project Manager: But people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote So possibly it might be worth the investment","Industrial Designer believed that the basic function of the remote control is to send messages to another system. The remote control needed an energy source to supply power to the integrated circuit, and had a chip and related information to control the infrared lamp. In the design, it can make the battery and infrared lamp cheaper and more sustainable. It can also add the design of speech recognition interface according to the market research provided by Marketing." Project Manager: Alright let us just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting See if I can not get things moving along here a little bit better I will go over what we went over last time which should not take long Then I believe each of you have a presentation I have was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote what they want then we can come to a conclusion on what we want the remote to do and how it is going to do it hopefully And then we will have the closing which we will have forty minutes for let us see the last meeting we went over who was responsible for what I am responsible for leading the meetings keeping the notes and coming up with the final presentation Corinne is our Marketing Expert She is going to figure out what what the consumer wants Ryan is our User Interface Designer And Manuel is the Industrial Designer So you are going to come up with the ideas Ryan and you are going to pick them apart we decided our remote we want it to be a universal remote that everyone would want we want to be modern fun different it needs to be sturdy easy to find so we going to have that locator function and we want to be different and then we went over a couple of different ideas Ballshaped phone The keyboard shape we decided that it should probably be onehanded Something we could use with one hand and that was our last meeting So why do not Do each of you have a presentation ?,"From the last meeting, Project Manager concluded that the team needed to design a modern, interesting, distinctive, sturdy, positioning remote control. In order to be distinctive, the team can adopt a spherical or keyboard shape design. Based on the market research, Project Manager thought that a rechargeable battery or solar cell is necessary, and the setting of the positioner and the reduction of button number is feasible. Project Manager wanted the remote control to be used only for TV, which can save the budget. For voice recognition, he thought it was unaffordable for young people, so the design was abandoned." "Project Manager: So if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem no teletext So we do not have to worry about that but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan which is we put the fashion in electronics And our corporate colours are grey and yellow And we could probably get away with black too but So those are the three the three new requirements that that I was told we need to use from all all three of your presentations I think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting We want something that looks good we want something that is simple We want something that you can find easily And the speech recognition I I guess is kind of give or take It is going to cost more S the young the younger people say that they like it But it is probably I would say probably not worth the investment at this point in time So maybe we should just do away with speech recognition And that way we can focus on our form User Interface: I did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing Is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster whatever you want to call it that you you should put it back in Your remote But if you do not put it back in you press something like a little button on that and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something Just by infrared That should not be too complex I would have thought Project Manager: That would be that would be good if we were going with our our ball User Interface: it would be quite good Project Manager: Or or with you know I guess with any form that that would be good User Interface: The ball could sit on a Project Manager: You know that could be the charger For you know we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote And that would be or solar Or you know However however you wanted to go about it the holder could also be the charging unit With the locator button and if it were the ball you would no longer have to have a flat space on it we still have the how to hold on to it Industrial Designer: You s you still W You put it on t on the couch table Project Manager: It is going to roll away Industrial Designer: it is going to roll off So that is not an issue really Project Manager: So I guess after the meeting we will have some questionnaires And and some summaries for for what is going on then we will take lunch Then we can come back and work on our individual work I will do the minutes let us see It looks like you are already on your way for working with the components chips the what chips we need and what you know how to power it and whatnot User interface concept we want it to be something simple Minimal number of buttons I guess our I guess our main main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look you know Did you have time earlier to to work on that Did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? User Interface: I will I will have a look try look at the actual appearance in the next break I th I I do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately onehanded The ball is probably not a good idea And even something that is held like that might be difficult So that I think it still has to be a variation On maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring as plain as a rectangle Project Manager: Shall we maybe shoot for a a specific target group ? That way we could l I mean if it were if we were shooting for young guys then it is a certain look to the remote Or girls or older people ? Would that you think that would help us find a specific form ? That we would would want to pick out ? User Interface: D I do not know if that might cope with like the trendwatching I find anything more on that Marketing: Mm not yet but maybe by the next meeting we will have some info on that Project Manager: Kay So we know that the remotes going to have to be we will just say we have got a colour scheme for it yellow and you know yellow it is nice and bright with the buttons being grey or black And our slogan pasted somewhere on it on the the bottom Maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort You know maybe we could flare it or something You know So it is more of course this will look like a bone then go ahead and erase this Hope everyone memorised that User Interface: You I mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones and the shapes that the they have been going They have gone from big brick block things which is a remote control is to sort of slinky small things Project Manager: everybodys got a mobile phone right ? Except for me now you know mobile phones they have kind of taken a turn to where they are really small which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time But then again you do not want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big and you had a handbag to carry it around in So we have got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we are what we are stuck with Maybe we could go with a square or something","The project manager thought that the shape of the remote control can be designed as a bone or cube to reduce the number of buttons, and add the company's yellow and grey color. Marketing believed that anti lost equipment can be designed. Since it's a one-handed project, Marketing proposed to design a special version for left-hand users. User Interface thought that the sphere is not suitable for one hand use, the rectangle variant can be used. The more important the button is, the bigger it is and the closer it is to the thumb for easy operation." Industrial Designer: Talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad Talk about maybe f look at that from the side there maybe Which is technically the easiest option Would probably be like a scrolling little scrolling wheel like this,"Industrial Designer proposed to design mouse-like click function and the scrolling function which is the simplest in technology. In addition, some small protuberances can be designed under the remote control, which is more convenient for users from the perspective of ergonomics, and the battery can be installed from the engineering point of view. He also proposed a two in one remote control. The small remote control has simple basic functions and is easy to carry. The large remote control is not easy to lose when it is fixed on furniture such as a sofa or table." "Project Manager: Very good let us have a look to the agenda today So we are going to have a meeting about the functional design so first before starting I w just going to to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting So basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific remote control but I have new new i inputs for about that topics I goin I am going to share with you And basically we decided to to go to individual actions for each of you so Industrial Designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design You showed us you ar you you prepare something for us ? The UI guy also work on that and for the mar our Marketing Expert should deliver some specs Alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations But first I would like quickly to to decide of to give a name to the project So I just put d quickly Remo but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly Any ideas ? What else ? What else ? User Interface: Maybe a Spanish name would work well Marketing: Mm I was thinking of the User Interface: Especially if we are selling into the US market becasue there is a lot of Spanish speakers there Maybe something that sounds cool in English but sounds funny in Spanish Project Manager: Mando MA ? MA ? Marketing: It does not it does not sound cool for me Project Manager: What does it mean ? Oh Marketing: but maybe for a Spanish for I for User Interface: What does it mean in Spanish ? Because it also like in English it sounds like you know the mans tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote Project Manager: So let us go for Mando ? ? No objection ? User Interface: And we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special so you have man in like in in in one o in one font and then the O as like Although you do not want to cut cut women out of the potential buyers though Industrial Designer: they are the most TV watcher So we should be careful Project Manager: I think this is more a question of of I I think this is more a question of of look and feel Something that should be addressed later We should we should go to other for the other topics Marketing: because if the product will be international User Interface: Well that is the thing We need to know who we are selling it to before we can really decide on a Project Manager: so let us stick f to Man Mando for the name and we will see for the for the look and feel later So let us go for the three presentations right now So who want to start ? So maybe we could start with the market Marketing: Maybe maybe I should start Mm Project Manager: so I have your slides somewhere ? Marketing: Should be in participant four Project Manager: Participant four This one ? Marketing: so I will I will give a brief outline about what I what I prepared for this meeting For the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements I prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls And also I di I did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five ten years There is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and Well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly thoroughly So and they they admit that the the they should s they would spend more money in a fancier remote control which is which is good and it is interesting point Also the people are worried about about the RSI disease which is if you repeat the sa the same movement which is not a with a not very appropriate device you you will have problems whe when you will get old So s people are are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control They are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often so I think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost And also I found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control So in my opinion the Mando this Mando should not be very small because the smaller it is the more like the the liklier it is to get lost Liklier or more likely ? likely people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should not they should not have the same importance in the in the in the remote cont in the remote control Also the z the design should fit the hand shape So it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes for right and left handed people User Interface: Well th the on the thing is though most remote controls are used by more than one person So unless you are kind of targeting single people you know you are going to maybe cut out some a lot of your market Marketing: I do not know I th Anyway I think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls Industrial Designer: Well maybe it could be a universal design A universal design which is which is good for both the hands User Interface: Still shaped for for your hand but not for a particular hand right ? Industrial Designer: ? That is right whether it is left hand or right hand but but do not you think that the two points are clashing one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? The first and the third point they are clashing User Interface: Well it can still be a you can still extend past the hand Industrial Designer: So fitting the hand does not mean much then User Interface: Well it means like this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger or you know with maybe some some finger molds or something Industrial Designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? And it should fit the hand Marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something Project Manager: Something with the shape of the palm ? User Interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything Marketing: It sh it should not it should not be symmetric symmetrical Not anymore That is what And finally the incorporation of a LCD or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting but I do not know if the budget would be large enough Project Manager: First I am just wondering about the LCD stuff because because Marketing: But most of most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology Project Manager: so maybe it is a good time for me to to bring you to some new new informations We had the new requirements from the so from the head offices of the company and so they wanted so they want to they would like to be restricted to TV I do not know if you had this information already No so they want us to restrict the remote control to TV only because of time limitations they want also Marketing: Actually this marketing report is restricted to TV remote controls Project Manager: Excellent So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and finally it should be clear that the corporate image that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product So User Interface: I was still I was still working on this twenty five Euro price point because I think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there this is quite a low price if if we are maybe I can get to this in my presentation though Project Manager: So maybe we can jump to your presentations right now so let us keep in mind about tha that that this last point about LCD and speech reco User Interface: I think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you are watching TV you are going to have a lot of this background noise from the TV which might interfere with the Project Manager: Sorry what is your ? User Interface: participant three You might have some background noise from the TV which will make the speech recognition much harder so Marketing: but you should be able to activate or disactivate so User Interface: Oh you press a press a button to talk and the the TV the TV sound turns off Industrial Designer: No it could be command control kind of thing It requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated Means you say you should say like does that remote control being on or be on kind of thing and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition Because this kind of thing means speech is there from the TV also So there should be something command controlled you start and then you stop It is like VI editor you are having two modes similarly Otherwise it is just lying idle User Interface: so could I describe the mouse maybe be easier to could I use the mouse or Project Manager: The wheel does not work User Interface: so while researching this this topic I first of all just thought of a couple of things that I would like to see in a remote and just looked to see if they are actually available in any current remotes and then also searched for which are the toprated remote controls on Epinions dot com which is a a you know a a customer written basically review site So there is a pretty wide range of remote controls these days and and this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant but it is not really it is by no means mm you know on it is own in being so expensive There are a lot of expensive remote controls out there Project Manager: Looks like a PDA ? User Interface: So it doe it is well basically all the functions are controlled through through the LCD screen except for the really really kind of main functions which have a couple of of their own buttons and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out on the market I know we are working on television remote but a lot of the universal remotes out there have have these LCD screens which kind of helps when you are using multiple devices I suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times But the thing that I find most interesting about this remote control and it is kind of difficult to to see in the slide but it has a scroll wheel on it which is kind of like a mouse scroll wheel which I think is it is a really kind of important design aspect is it is Because the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do And obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel the I think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel Because I know when I when I use the remote to change the channel I very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad I usually use the up and down because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a twodigit number and then two numbers so that is just it is annoying So I think a scroll wheel is is quite handy Now the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an LCD screen and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet capability One possibility if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff can not be done for twenty five Eu Euro but one possibility is to download program information into the LCD screen so that instead of actually saying I want to I want to go to channel thirty seven because I know this programmes on you know often you do not know what ch what channel it is on or you do not know what is on If you have a list of of programs on your LCD screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel So if you think about it is kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do not use you do not remember peoples phone number you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it So this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have but we we really need t to discuss the price So I mean there are there are cheaper this is another multi kind of purpose remote control where it is it is it is very simple there is only a few buttons but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context So this is something else we might want to consider is really kind of limiting the number of buttons because this is the top rating universal remote control on on Epinions It it is really maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible because really I think people want to be able to find the button they are looking for without even looking at the remote control And was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used tasks but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important but also the number of buttons So if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want Industrial Designer: But there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality Because the same button is doing too many things User Interface: well we will have a bit of a simpler task in that we are only doing a television remote control I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flipopen door that that you have hidden most of the time but contains the extra buttons like say the number buttons for instance I I would if I had my perfect remote control I would probably just have no numbers at all on it because they are just in the way They do not really do anything Maybe you know I although I do also find flipopen doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good but I think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device Marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should not be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it is very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional Industrial Designer: It does sampling out of the User Interface: Well I guess that depends on how you market it If you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can you know navigate to a program without the numbers then people might say that looks pretty easy Project Manager: can you continue please Mi ? User Interface: yep so I think one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number So if we can have a higher priced remote control I think that would really be worth something that would be worth implementing mm there is the LCD screen which maybe maybe is too expensive but I think also at the scroll wheel I have not mentioned it here the scroll wheel could be used without an LCD screen just for changing channel numbers easily I think even that I mean that would be a fairly cheap thing compared to an LCD screen to implement but I think that would be quite useful as well And the other thing you say we need to we need to keep it just television but I think one maybe one option since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device is you know there is a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology and maybe we want to make it something that is extensible to do other tasks Say you have like a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can say change the lighting in the room You know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra so that it does not have to be part of the initial development but you know later on you could you can you know you also selling the potential of the device Then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights I do not know close the windows whatever turn the heating on and I think that is something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kind of make our product cool since we say we are putting the fashion in electronics Project Manager: thanks you want to go ? Industrial Designer: So most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition that means on my own I Project Manager: Great No not that one you are two Industrial Designer: so the working design is user i interface could be of two types one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology So he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote So the old kind of users who do not want to have any changes it can it can be useful for them and the new users as our Marketing Expert was saying they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing Project Manager: sorry to interrupt you but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel Industrial Designer: That is right So anyway that did not come into my mind so th that is a possibility These could be other kind of interfaces Means we can have depending on the cost how much we can afford we can have different kind of interfaces So spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with So if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to she will that twentyfive Euros money which we are thinking Otherwise we are just like others in the market So anyway that is the first user interface could be of more than one type and that means we can do the online changes which which can not be done now actually So apart from the speech we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons Now for buttons normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required And for voice limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote Project Manager: That increases the the cost also Industrial Designer: that is right But means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that Project Manager: Do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? Industrial Designer: yes if it is limited vocabulary usually it is enough we we can target means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc Project Manager: Well wh I imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance a an ambience microphones because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control Industrial Designer: That is right No it it could be little d it could be Project Manager: So it could be s a few centimetres User Interface: Well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is when you want to sell into other markets though Industrial Designer: That is right That is right User Interface: because I am not sure exactly where we are going to sell this but I presume it is not going to just be English speaking countries So then you have to s you know you have to train models for Industrial Designer: Mmhmm mmhmm it is more like means there are different speech technologies which are existing so DTW could be kind of which is the easiest So you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself and it is just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a microcontroller Project Manager: we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this slide This is a this is a this is a a very important issue in discussion Industrial Designer: So we can That is right Yep So will you go to the next slide ? so this is the design which we are thinking so We are having a power button and the switch which is not much and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not And then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time So we could not put that So now where the ASR decoder is sitting similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there So there is ASR decoder which could be there and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller and then there could be buttons and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format And then there is there is the chip which is sitting the green one and it converts it into bit codes and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver So this is the easiest design the there could be So th an ASR decoder we can have things in To have different technologies So this was the my personal preference was that we can have ASR sitting there on the remote control User Interface: You know I guess you could actually train the remote control as you are using it by saying you know turn volume up and you press the press the button like s people teach sign language to kids f well by speaking and doing Industrial Designer: but as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up So these are the slight problems Project Manager: So your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? Industrial Designer: Because the reason is that if we go into the market means though I do not have much idea but as he the Marketing Expert presentation was Marketing: I am sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo everyone will s will buy it User Interface: Actually I am not so sure Industrial Designer: So if we go with just the User Interface: you know if I was using a remote control to say turn the volume up because I can not hear it very well I do not really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I am when I am instead of pressing up on on a remote control You know if there is some there is some dialogue all of a sudden that I can not hear I am trying to actually find out what is being said so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps Marketing: but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons it is about User Interface: Well it depends if it is a remote control th Marketing: it is about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour or something like that User Interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you do not actually have to pick up anymore that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion If you can leave it sitting on the table and you do not actually have to find it then that could be Industrial Designer: Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Project Manager: gentlemens we have to take some deci decisions right now so if I if I kind of summarise everything we have de we we said We are targeting TV We need we need to have remote control which is fanc fancy which is which is easy to to hand not too small not too big we have Marketing: With a good shape for the Project Manager: or good shape yes We should bring new technologies for young peoples and as we have also requirements to to use to to push thr toward the internet Maybe this is something we can stick to it And also a very interesting things I I I have seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price it is not possible to go s to go to LCD and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies first m m why not to go to LCD Because in fact as we are targeting TV in fact we can use TV screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have User Interface: Well it depends though well it depends If we we do not unless we have some input some video input to the TV or we have control over the TV then we can not actually display that Like if we if we produce the TVs then then we can put you know menus up up there but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the TV to superimpose those those menus So that is an extra Project Manager: that is right Don do not you ha do not we have contacts with people on TV or or well systems that exist that we can use ? User Interface: Well this is this is another que we still have not really defined the remote Are we still you say we are focusing on TV but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it is a replacement remote control or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? Because that really makes a big difference Because even if we have contacts we can not really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies TVs It is just there are too many TVs out there It is it is not really going to Project Manager: That is good point What is what cou what could be the cost of well could we fit the the targets in terms of cost if we go s to LCD on the remote control ? User Interface: For twenty five Euro ? I think it is impossible Industrial Designer: It is not possible It is impossible User Interface: But but I do not know I think it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that that twenty five Euro because for twenty five Euro I think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics So I would I would like to know if there is any chance of of increasing the of increasing the unit price Project Manager: So you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to in terms to had to have really an added value ? so regarding the automatic speech recognition I think this is Marketing: Wha but what would be one question what would be the goal of putting an LCD in a remote control ? What what kind of information ? User Interface: Because you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers like an interactive programme guide Marketing: but mo most of the TVs nowadays show the show the Project Manager: They have tele teletext Well because they have teletext on it Th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can that you can get thr through the channel Marketing: but most of the TVs have teletext nowadays Project Manager: They have t most of them have teletext but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to to move to teletext to to the use of internet User Interface: You can get a lot more information on it Project Manager: to browse more easily the teletext For instance through through your remote control Marketing: So what would what would appear in the in the LCD ? User Interface: So you could have the name of the programme you could have the start time you know where it is up to Project Manager: The ti the start time all the p all the programmes you could have o User Interface: You could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something so you can quickly just kind of even without reading Project Manager: Well I do not know if this information is available from teletext also User Interface: Well no but there are the electronic programme guides out there They may not have pictures but maybe they do There is dependi it also depends on the country Project Manager: Well because for the same reason that we can not informations on the TV We c we could not grab information information which is not there User Interface: No but I mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from So it may be possible that there are people out there providing that Project Manager: So so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control if you want to browse in addition to the TV or or it should be a special TV connected to User Interface: Well I I think if we are going to I think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y I do not think you could even get teletext information from the TV onto the remote control especially if we do not control the TV I do not know We need to find that out Project Manager: We need to close the meeting so Industrial Designer: But just a small thing what kind of market we are targeting ? Is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market or what ? So the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of LCD thing could be as high as the TV itself Project Manager: well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their User Interface: If it is a really small TV maybe Project Manager: and they want to go t for universal one and they take the fanciest they can have So this is that we z that that we should target So the com the the the committment is the following we do not go for speech recognition technology The LCD is still on disc is still open to discussion It is up to you to go through this this way and to to report report me back next meeting So Marketing: I think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the LCD Industrial Designer: It is it is cheaper as compared to the LCD Project Manager: but not sure Maybe it is cheaper but we have no Marketing: Because with the LCD you need more requirements You need a internet connection You need m more things User Interface: Well the thing is I think I think the type of peop Marketing: for the speech recognition you you do not need anything You just say channel fifty and that is it User Interface: I think the type of people that are going to want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kind of people that are going to have you know a wireless internet connection maybe or a you know Marketing: But then we should move to another target b because at twenty five Dollars Industrial Designer: Means th twenty five Euros is that is right User Interface: Well this is what we need to find out Can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? Because otherwise we need Project Manager: this is this is an open question for you This is up to you to tell us But I am definitely not keen on to to Marketing: To move to another target ? Project Manager: no no no I am no I am definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies I am not confident enough I am not sure that that we will have a product really that work I that work User Interface: It is kind of hard to guarantee that you are going to Project Manager: It is real How to guarantee such performances is really hard Marketing: the expert said ninety five percent Project Manager: Well this is still is is very bad User Interface: Ninety five percent is not good enough though Project Manager: So this is the end of this discussion Next meeting here are the task you have to work on so you have to work on the component concept you have to work on user interface and you have to go through a trend watching So the question is still open about the LCD thing we I hope that next meeting we will we will take some decision that direction Thanks Bye","The group agreed that the remote should be fancy and easy to be hand-held. It should not be too small or too big in good shape. They agreed to bring new technologies and push toward the internet for young peoples. So they would use the wheel to navigate. Also regarding the budget, they had a new target price but it would be impossible to have LCD and automatic speech recognition technologies implementation." "Industrial Designer: Well maybe it could be a universal design A universal design which is which is good for both the hands User Interface: Still shaped for for your hand but not for a particular hand right ? Industrial Designer: ? That is right whether it is left hand or right hand but but do not you think that the two points are clashing one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? The first and the third point they are clashing User Interface: Well it can still be a you can still extend past the hand Industrial Designer: So fitting the hand does not mean much then User Interface: Well it means like this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger or you know with maybe some some finger molds or something Industrial Designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? And it should fit the hand Marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something Project Manager: Something with the shape of the palm ? User Interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything Marketing: It sh it should not it should not be symmetric symmetrical Not anymore That is what",Industrial Designer thought a universal shape design should be good for both the hands. User Interface suggested that they could still design to extend past the hand and have something like finger grips on the remote compared to the traditional ones. Marketing supplemented that it should not be symmetrical. And Project Manager agreed on it. "Marketing: And finally the incorporation of a LCD or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting but I do not know if the budget would be large enough Project Manager: First I am just wondering about the LCD stuff because because Marketing: But most of most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology Project Manager: so maybe it is a good time for me to to bring you to some new new informations We had the new requirements from the so from the head offices of the company and so they wanted so they want to they would like to be restricted to TV I do not know if you had this information already No so they want us to restrict the remote control to TV only because of time limitations they want also Marketing: Actually this marketing report is restricted to TV remote controls Project Manager: Excellent So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and finally it should be clear that the corporate image that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product So","Marketing mentioned that most of the young people to thirty years old were interested in this kind of technology. However, Project Manager updated him and group mates that head offices would like to restrict the remote control to TV only because of time limitations. Therefore, Project Manager suggested the group focusing more on the internet aspects because the teletext was outdated and it should be clear that the corporate image should be clearly identified in the product." "User Interface: So this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have but we we really need t to discuss the price So I mean there are there are cheaper this is another multi kind of purpose remote control where it is it is it is very simple there is only a few buttons but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context So this is something else we might want to consider is really kind of limiting the number of buttons because this is the top rating universal remote control on on Epinions It it is really maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible because really I think people want to be able to find the button they are looking for without even looking at the remote control And was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used tasks but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important but also the number of buttons So if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want Industrial Designer: But there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality Because the same button is doing too many things User Interface: well we will have a bit of a simpler task in that we are only doing a television remote control I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flipopen door that that you have hidden most of the time but contains the extra buttons like say the number buttons for instance I I would if I had my perfect remote control I would probably just have no numbers at all on it because they are just in the way They do not really do anything Maybe you know I although I do also find flipopen doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good but I think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device Marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should not be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it is very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional Industrial Designer: It does sampling out of the User Interface: Well I guess that depends on how you market it If you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can you know navigate to a program without the numbers then people might say that looks pretty easy","When User Interface mentioned about they need to keep the buttons down to a minimum, Marketing thought the transition to this new remote control shouldn't be very abrupt because if people would think it's very difficult to learn a remote control without numbers. User Interface responded that it would depend on how they advertise it to navigate to a program without the numbers." "User Interface: yep so I think one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number So if we can have a higher priced remote control I think that would really be worth something that would be worth implementing mm there is the LCD screen which maybe maybe is too expensive but I think also at the scroll wheel I have not mentioned it here the scroll wheel could be used without an LCD screen just for changing channel numbers easily I think even that I mean that would be a fairly cheap thing compared to an LCD screen to implement but I think that would be quite useful as well And the other thing you say we need to we need to keep it just television but I think one maybe one option since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device is you know there is a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology and maybe we want to make it something that is extensible to do other tasks Say you have like a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can say change the lighting in the room You know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra so that it does not have to be part of the initial development but you know later on you could you can you know you also selling the potential of the device Then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights I do not know close the windows whatever turn the heating on and I think that is something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kind of make our product cool since we say we are putting the fashion in electronics Project Manager: thanks you want to go ? Industrial Designer: So most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition that means on my own I Project Manager: Great No not that one you are two Industrial Designer: so the working design is user i interface could be of two types one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology So he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote So the old kind of users who do not want to have any changes it can it can be useful for them and the new users as our Marketing Expert was saying they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing Project Manager: sorry to interrupt you but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel Industrial Designer: That is right So anyway that did not come into my mind so th that is a possibility These could be other kind of interfaces Means we can have depending on the cost how much we can afford we can have different kind of interfaces So spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with So if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to she will that twentyfive Euros money which we are thinking Otherwise we are just like others in the market So anyway that is the first user interface could be of more than one type and that means we can do the online changes which which can not be done now actually So apart from the speech we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons Now for buttons normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required And for voice limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote Project Manager: That increases the the cost also Industrial Designer: that is right But means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that Project Manager: Do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? Industrial Designer: yes if it is limited vocabulary usually it is enough we we can target means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc Project Manager: Well wh I imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance a an ambience microphones because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control Industrial Designer: That is right No it it could be little d it could be Project Manager: So it could be s a few centimetres User Interface: Well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is when you want to sell into other markets though Industrial Designer: That is right That is right User Interface: because I am not sure exactly where we are going to sell this but I presume it is not going to just be English speaking countries So then you have to s you know you have to train models for Industrial Designer: Mmhmm mmhmm it is more like means there are different speech technologies which are existing so DTW could be kind of which is the easiest So you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself and it is just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a microcontroller Project Manager: we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this slide This is a this is a this is a a very important issue in discussion Industrial Designer: So we can That is right Yep So will you go to the next slide ? so this is the design which we are thinking so We are having a power button and the switch which is not much and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not And then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time So we could not put that So now where the ASR decoder is sitting similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there So there is ASR decoder which could be there and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller and then there could be buttons and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format And then there is there is the chip which is sitting the green one and it converts it into bit codes and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver So this is the easiest design the there could be So th an ASR decoder we can have things in To have different technologies So this was the my personal preference was that we can have ASR sitting there on the remote control User Interface: You know I guess you could actually train the remote control as you are using it by saying you know turn volume up and you press the press the button like s people teach sign language to kids f well by speaking and doing Industrial Designer: but as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up So these are the slight problems Project Manager: So your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? Industrial Designer: Because the reason is that if we go into the market means though I do not have much idea but as he the Marketing Expert presentation was Marketing: I am sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo everyone will s will buy it User Interface: Actually I am not so sure Industrial Designer: So if we go with just the User Interface: you know if I was using a remote control to say turn the volume up because I can not hear it very well I do not really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I am when I am instead of pressing up on on a remote control You know if there is some there is some dialogue all of a sudden that I can not hear I am trying to actually find out what is being said so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps Marketing: but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons it is about User Interface: Well it depends if it is a remote control th Marketing: it is about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour or something like that User Interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you do not actually have to pick up anymore that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion If you can leave it sitting on the table and you do not actually have to find it then that could be Industrial Designer: Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Project Manager: gentlemens we have to take some deci decisions right now so if I if I kind of summarise everything we have de we we said We are targeting TV We need we need to have remote control which is fanc fancy which is which is easy to to hand not too small not too big we have Marketing: With a good shape for the Project Manager: or good shape yes We should bring new technologies for young peoples and as we have also requirements to to use to to push thr toward the internet Maybe this is something we can stick to it And also a very interesting things I I I have seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price it is not possible to go s to go to LCD and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies first m m why not to go to LCD Because in fact as we are targeting TV in fact we can use TV screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have","User Interface suggested that the scroll wheel could be used without an LCD screen for changing channel numbers easily. And it would be fairly cheap to implement compared to an LCD screen. Project Manager mentioned that, however, they had seen that there was a new way of interacting that used wheels to navigate. So Project Manager suggested that regarding the cost budget they had a target price, their design could stick to new technologies that bring to young people." "Marketing: I am sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five Euros everyo everyone will s will buy it User Interface: Actually I am not so sure Industrial Designer: So if we go with just the User Interface: you know if I was using a remote control to say turn the volume up because I can not hear it very well I do not really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when I am when I am instead of pressing up on on a remote control You know if there is some there is some dialogue all of a sudden that I can not hear I am trying to actually find out what is being said so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps Marketing: but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons it is about User Interface: Well it depends if it is a remote control th Marketing: it is about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour or something like that User Interface: Maybe if the remote control is something that y you do not actually have to pick up anymore that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion If you can leave it sitting on the table and you do not actually have to find it then that could be Industrial Designer: Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Mmhmm Project Manager: gentlemens we have to take some deci decisions right now so if I if I kind of summarise everything we have de we we said We are targeting TV We need we need to have remote control which is fanc fancy which is which is easy to to hand not too small not too big we have Marketing: With a good shape for the Project Manager: or good shape yes We should bring new technologies for young peoples and as we have also requirements to to use to to push thr toward the internet Maybe this is something we can stick to it And also a very interesting things I I I have seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate So so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price it is not possible to go s to go to LCD and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies first m m why not to go to LCD Because in fact as we are targeting TV in fact we can use TV screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have User Interface: Well it depends though well it depends If we we do not unless we have some input some video input to the TV or we have control over the TV then we can not actually display that Like if we if we produce the TVs then then we can put you know menus up up there but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the TV to superimpose those those menus So that is an extra Project Manager: that is right Don do not you ha do not we have contacts with people on TV or or well systems that exist that we can use ? User Interface: Well this is this is another que we still have not really defined the remote Are we still you say we are focusing on TV but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it is a replacement remote control or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? Because that really makes a big difference Because even if we have contacts we can not really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies TVs It is just there are too many TVs out there It is it is not really going to Project Manager: That is good point What is what cou what could be the cost of well could we fit the the targets in terms of cost if we go s to LCD on the remote control ? User Interface: For twenty five Euro ? I think it is impossible Industrial Designer: It is not possible It is impossible User Interface: But but I do not know I think it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that that twenty five Euro because for twenty five Euro I think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics So I would I would like to know if there is any chance of of increasing the of increasing the unit price Project Manager: So you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to in terms to had to have really an added value ? so regarding the automatic speech recognition I think this is Marketing: Wha but what would be one question what would be the goal of putting an LCD in a remote control ? What what kind of information ? User Interface: Because you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers like an interactive programme guide Marketing: but mo most of the TVs nowadays show the show the Project Manager: They have tele teletext Well because they have teletext on it Th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can that you can get thr through the channel Marketing: but most of the TVs have teletext nowadays Project Manager: They have t most of them have teletext but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to to move to teletext to to the use of internet User Interface: You can get a lot more information on it Project Manager: to browse more easily the teletext For instance through through your remote control Marketing: So what would what would appear in the in the LCD ? User Interface: So you could have the name of the programme you could have the start time you know where it is up to Project Manager: The ti the start time all the p all the programmes you could have o User Interface: You could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something so you can quickly just kind of even without reading Project Manager: Well I do not know if this information is available from teletext also User Interface: Well no but there are the electronic programme guides out there They may not have pictures but maybe they do There is dependi it also depends on the country Project Manager: Well because for the same reason that we can not informations on the TV We c we could not grab information information which is not there User Interface: No but I mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from So it may be possible that there are people out there providing that Project Manager: So so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control if you want to browse in addition to the TV or or it should be a special TV connected to User Interface: Well I I think if we are going to I think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y I do not think you could even get teletext information from the TV onto the remote control especially if we do not control the TV I do not know We need to find that out Project Manager: We need to close the meeting so Industrial Designer: But just a small thing what kind of market we are targeting ? Is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market or what ? So the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of LCD thing could be as high as the TV itself Project Manager: well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their User Interface: If it is a really small TV maybe Project Manager: and they want to go t for universal one and they take the fanciest they can have So this is that we z that that we should target So the com the the the committment is the following we do not go for speech recognition technology The LCD is still on disc is still open to discussion It is up to you to go through this this way and to to report report me back next meeting So Marketing: I think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the LCD Industrial Designer: It is it is cheaper as compared to the LCD Project Manager: but not sure Maybe it is cheaper but we have no Marketing: Because with the LCD you need more requirements You need a internet connection You need m more things User Interface: Well the thing is I think I think the type of peop Marketing: for the speech recognition you you do not need anything You just say channel fifty and that is it User Interface: I think the type of people that are going to want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kind of people that are going to have you know a wireless internet connection maybe or a you know Marketing: But then we should move to another target b because at twenty five Dollars Industrial Designer: Means th twenty five Euros is that is right User Interface: Well this is what we need to find out Can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? Because otherwise we need Project Manager: this is this is an open question for you This is up to you to tell us But I am definitely not keen on to to Marketing: To move to another target ? Project Manager: no no no I am no I am definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies I am not confident enough I am not sure that that we will have a product really that work I that work","User Interface thought that sometimes the speech recognition interrupted people when there was a dialogue on the TV program. Unless the remote control could be made to not have to pick up any more, that would be a useful feature of speech recognition. Project Manager was not keen on it because Project Manager was not confident they would have a product that was able to work. However, Marketing thought that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper than the LCD and people must buy it with twenty-five Euros." "Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you very much Mr Chair When the government first starting rolling out programs to help Canadians get through this pandemic we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program The government assured Canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on Well Canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus Here we are the first day of June and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs it is still letting so many Canadians down I have a series of very straightforward and specific questions On April 20 we raised with the Minister of Finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that We have raised it several times now I would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr Chair I believe that a company with a fantastic Canadian history in the members riding Brandt Tractor which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in Canada is particularly affected by this It is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many Canadian companies as possible It helps to keep employees connected to their businesses Now there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies I know that in the case of Brandt Tractor for example officials from the Ministry of Finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair that is the same answer we got last week It is the same answer we got two weeks before that and it is the same answer we have been getting from day one This is a very simple question The government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations The solution is very simple It is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions This is a very specific question : Will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many many Canadian companies and for many many Canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program More than two million Canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program By any measure that is a successful program Now for sure there are always going to be companies which because of specifics in their history need specific attention and that The Chair: We will go back to Mr Scheer Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it It is a yesorno question and the minister still can not answer it Along the same lines we asked on April 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 revenue loss using other metrics such as loss of earnings subscriptions and orders in order to qualify They still can not do that today the first day of June Why has not the government addressed this part of the program ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep Canadian businesses going and crucially to keep Canadian workers connected to their jobs but I have a question for the member opposite Half of the questions we hear from the Conservatives in question period are concerns that we are spending too much money that the deficit is too high The other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs We know which side we are on as a government I would like the Conservatives to let Canadians know what they believe in The Chair: Mr Scheer you may have a short question Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair it is quite clear what Conservatives believe in We believe that when times were good this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like 50 million to Mastercard and 12 million to Loblaws The fact of the matter is that the government left Canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more Canadians from getting the help they need Again on April 26 Conservatives asked the Prime Minister to change the criteria for the Canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do not happen to have a business bank account can qualify Why has not the Prime Minister made that change either ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I am really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for Canadians Canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debttoGDP ratio in the G7 We had that before the crisis began and we still do Canada has the fiscal firepower to support Canadians during this unprecedented crisis and that is what we are going to continue to do Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): MrChair the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and SMEs to avoid closures and bankruptcy Have I missed something ? Is the Liberal Party on the verge of bankruptcy ? Is it about to shut down ? Does the Prime Minister consider that the Liberal Party is getting ready to close its doors ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I thank the hon member for the question I want to point out that as the hon member said the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across Canada We are proud of that More than 2million Canadians have benefited from this The Chair: MrsDeBellefeuille you have the floor Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MrChair the Liberal Party made 3million between January and March of this year That is 3million in political donations We are told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of Liberal Party employees I am not an accountant but I can count I am wondering why the Liberal Party does not use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the Canada emergency wage subsidy Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon member for her question I would like to point out again that the purpose of the Canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across Canada and Quebec to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace That is what we have done More than 2million Canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country We are proud of it Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MrChair does the Deputy Prime Minister think it is moral fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the Liberal Party of Canada out of their taxes ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Our programs do not discriminate They are there to help all workers The hon member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help We agree There is still a lot to do but we want to work with all the Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MrChair many struggling businesses in Quebec do not have access to the Canada emergency wage subsidy because they do not meet the eligibility criteria Many tourism and municipal organizations among others do not have access to this wage subsidy However it is very clear that the Liberal Party qualifies according to the program criteria Does the Deputy Prime Minister really think it is moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon member for her question I agree that there is still a lot to do We are ready and we are taking action However it is important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support Canadians We have spent 152billion in direct support measures to Canadians More than eightmillion people are benefiting from the CERB and more than twomillion The Chair: MrsDeBellefeuille you have the floor Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille: MrChair what I understand is not really complicated to understand I understand that the Liberal Party has money that it has money to pay its employees but that it does not want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election It is as if it were telling us that it is indirectly financing itself for the next election Will the Deputy Prime Minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I want to point out that our programs do not discriminate They are there to help all workers across the country and I want to point out to what extent our programs do that Eight million people are currently benefiting from the CERB and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy Our programs are also helping 380000students and 639000businesses The Chair: We will now continue with Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much Mr Chair Canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of George Floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner We are struggling with the impacts of antiblack racism Antiblack racism has not just appeared or increased It is now simply being captured by video Canada is also no different Antiblack racism also impacts Canada and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored Will the government commit to tracking racebased data in terms of COVID19s impact on communities particularly black Canadians and track racebased data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in Canada and in fighting against it Thank you I agree strongly with the member opposite that we as Canadians must be the opposite of complacent We have to acknowledge that antiblack racism is real in our country that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real It happens here We have to commit today to working hard to fight it I have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus and I hope I will have a chance to do that in my next answer","The leader of the opposition party raised the point that some companies which had purchased other companies might not be eligible for the wage subsidy program, and money allocated for the wage subsidy was going unspent because the government had left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it. However, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs argued that the wage subsidy program was supposed to reach out to as many companies as possible, and the wage subsidy was really put in place by a large amount of money to protect workers across Canada." "Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you for that openness on the part of the government I want more and clear commitments We also know that racebased or discriminatory police practices still exist across Canada Will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in Canada particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? Will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Thank you again for that very important question First of all on coronavirus our government believes that disaggregated data including when it comes to race is extremely important We are working with our provincial partners on that On policing racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful We will always work to uphold the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in Canada are protected At the federal level RCMP members are guided by biasfree policing based on equality and nondiscrimination Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I want to change tracks Mr Chair and talk about longterm care How many times did the Prime Ministers Office and the Liberal government meet with lobbyists from forprofit longterm care homes from March 25 to April 22 during the worst impacts of COVID19 in longterm care homes ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair at this moment I can only speak for myself and I have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times I share the member opposites concerns about longterm care facilities in Canada We have to do better and we will Mr. Jagmeet Singh: It was 12 times during the worst impacts of COVID19 While seniors were dying in longterm care homes the Prime Ministers Office and the Liberal government met with private forprofit longterm care home lobbyists 12 times Why did the Prime Ministers Office and the Liberal government choose to meet with these forprofit longterm care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? Instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role why did not the Prime Minister and the Liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in longterm care homes ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me very clear about one thing speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the Prime Minister Our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in longterm care homes in our country and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces about facilities in Ontario and Quebec need to be treated as historic documents that The Chair: Now it is MrRayess turn MrRayes you have the floor","The leader of the opposition party wished to know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across Canada. The minister reassured that there would not be such a thing in the police system. And also, the opposition party questioned about the inadequate long-term care facilities in Canada, and the minister stressed that the government saw it as a matter of utmost concern and urgency." "The Chair: Now it is MrRayess turn MrRayes you have the floor Mr. Alain Rayes: MrChair why is it that employers from industry businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the Canada summer jobs program still have not received the money they are entitled to ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): We are ensuring that the Canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced We are making it more available to more students We have lengthened the time period that the program Mr. Alain Rayes: Every day the Prime Minister makes announcements in front of his residence I will repeat my question Given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work how is it that the organizations have not yet received the money they need to hire students ? As we know there have been some problems with the CESB Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of COVID19 We recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year That is why we have introduced flexibilities in the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers Mr. Alain Rayes: The minister can say whatever he wants Last year there was no crisis and as of April all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money We are currently in a crisis The government is trying to respond quickly to the needs Right now community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity Why ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the COVID19 pandemic As such the flexibilities we have introduced into the Canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers including nonprofits and businesses that deliver essential services to Canadians These changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the Canada summer jobs program Mr. Alain Rayes: The young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying He mentioned that the rules are now more flexible However it is taking a month and a half longer than last year The money has not yet been given out I have done my homework I went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings Last year in my riding all the money had been deposited before April Right now there is a 240000shortfall for about 60student jobs and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility Why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly to help the economy recover and to help young people ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair indeed we are acting quickly We are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth and that it gives them the experiences they need It is adapted better for the COVID19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program It is a great program and we are making it work not just for businesses but also for nonprofits Mr. Alain Rayes: Here is the reality Last week the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work This morning an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring This means that one more young person will not have a job That young person will therefore have to receive the CESB There is the reality When is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair I join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the COVID19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it That is why we have introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills especially in the context of the COVID19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow Canadians It is a great program We are doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles","Members from the opposition party questioned that employers from industry, businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the Canada summer jobs program had not yet received the money they are entitled to. The Minister of Families, Children and Social Development answered that they were putting in strength to reinforce the program and allow it in reaching out to more unemployed students. Members from the opposition party raised their concern towards the weak job market due to the COVID-19, but the Minister argued that they were still tackling obstacles to implement this policy in reality." "The Chair: We will now continue with Ms Shin Ms. Nelly Shin: Thank you Mr Chair By its own numbers PSPC has had to cut the number of N95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet Canadian standards We know that companies right here in Canada were willing to step up and fill in the Will the minister commit to making domestic production of PPE including N95 masks a priority ? Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Mr Chair our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of frontline health care workers We have been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time Building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority We have a contract with Medicom in Montreal for the production of N95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure The Chair: We will go back to Ms Shin Ms. Nelly Shin: Mr Chair Novo Textiles a company in my riding has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of PPE in Canada Additionally it will soon be producing quality madeinCanada N95 masks using Canadian designs and Canadianmade machinery My constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying frontline workers right now not just talking about it However the companys application to NGen was recently rejected Canada needs masks now masks that meet Canadian standards Is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity or is it all talk and no action ? Hon. Anita Anand: In reality we have received 1013 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories We have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of PPE right here at home We are working very hard Mr Chair to make sure Canadian frontline health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic Ms. Nelly Shin: Mr Chair how many of these have received financial support from the government ? Hon. Anita Anand: Mr Chair I am not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these but as I said we have signed 24 contracts with domestic The Chair: We will have to go back to Ms Shin Ms. Nelly Shin: Where are these manufacturers located ? Hon. Anita Anand: Mr Chair we have surgical masks being produced right here at home as well as abroad being brought into Canada Ms. Nelly Shin: What provinces are they in ? Hon. Anita Anand: Mr Chair as I said we have a contract with General Motors for the production of surgical masks Ms. Nelly Shin: Are there any in any provinces besides Ontario and Quebec ? Hon. Anita Anand: Mr Chair we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment We are committed Ms. Nelly Shin: How many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in China ? Hon. Anita Anand: Mr Chair we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product As a result we The Chair: We will go back to Ms Shin Ms. Nelly Shin: Will the Minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? Thank you Hon. Anita Anand: I will commit Mr Chair to continuing to work hard for Canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need We have been giving updated numbers on our website The Chair: We will go back to Ms Shin","Since the government cancelled contracts with companies that were not able to meet Canadian standards, the member highlighted that it should be supporting more local companies for production. The minister answered that the government had been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time, and were signing contracts with few more domestic companies. However, the opposition party was skeptical about those companies and other possible companies receiving sufficient funds for production." "Mr. John Brassard (BarrieInnisfil, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Last week the President of the Treasury Board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability even in times of crisis My question is for the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities Does she agree with the President of the Treasury Boards directive ? Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Mr Chair the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time The Government of Canada along with provincial and territorial governments have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of COVID19 and to protect the health and safety of federal employees These measures have had an impact on institutions abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests since most employees are now working from their homes Mr. John Brassard: Frankly I am surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities is in the House but I will ask this question Can the minister tell Canadians who Pierre Lavalle is ? Hon. Steven Guilbeault: Treasury Board Secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to Access to Information Act and Privacy Act requests and to provide published content The Chair: We will go back to Mr Brassard Mr. John Brassard: Can the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities tell us who Pierre Lavalle is ? Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): Mr Chair of course Pierre Lavalle was the former CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank We are very proud that we now have Michael Sabia as the new chair of the Infrastructure Bank He did a fabulous job in Montreal at The Chair: We will now go back to Mr Brassard Mr. John Brassard: Can the minister tell me how long Mr Lavalle was the CEO of the Infrastructure Bank ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair I can not give you the exact months He was the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank since the beginning but let us be clear : Crown corporations work at arms length from the government and must have The Chair: We will return to Mr Brassard Mr. John Brassard: Can I ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 75 or 100 ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair that is quite a condescending little comment I would like to say that I know my file very well What I know is that Canadians want infrastructure built they want it built across the country in the member opposites riding and in ridings across the country They want cleaner healthier more connected Some hon members : Hear hear ! The Chair: We will go back to Mr Brassard Mr. John Brassard: How much of the 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair the Infrastructure Bank is a new more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments It was set up it is now in its new phase We are very excited that it is going to be moving forwardand stay tuned Mr. John Brassard: In the context of Mr Duclos advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency I would like to ask the minister how much Mr Lavalle was paid annually Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair as I said Crown corporations work at arms length from the government Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation but remuneration ranges are publicly available I would note that this information for the banks CEOs has been in the public domain Mr. John Brassard: Mr Chair I am asking the minister how much Mr Lavalle made There was no answer to that If it is in the public realm she should know that She said she knows her file very well How much of a bonus was Mr Lavalle paid recently when he left on April 2 ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: Mr Chair I am not involved in HR discussions when it comes to the Canada Infrastructure Bank and Mr Lavalle Crown corporations work at arms length from the government They need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates As I say the information about salary ranges is publicly available but personal HR Mr. John Brassard: Mr Chair could you stop my ? I am hearing The Chair: I would ask those of us virtually to mute Mr Brassard there is about 15 seconds left I will cue you for a very short question Mr. John Brassard: Thank you Mr Chair According to a table Mr Lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 of his base salary which was 510000 to 600000 per year or in year two which he was in zero to 120 of his base salary How much of a bonus did he receive ? Hon. Catherine McKenna: The rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board Our government follows the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act when it comes to employee compensation Let me say this : We are very excited about the new phase of the Canada Infrastructure Bank We have Michael Sabia there as the new board chair We need to move forward on","The Minister of Canadian Heritage explained that the government remained committed to maintaining the openness and transparency during the crisis. However, the opposition party questioned about the allocation of $35 billion of infrastructure money. The opposition party suspected that the money went to personal salary and this doubt was not clarified enough during the later discussion." "Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Thank you Chair Parliaments now been suspended for three months since Friday March 13 Will the government commit to reopening the House of Commons with its full powers with social distancing on Monday September 21 ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr Chair as my colleague knows we are meeting here four days a week with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day Democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition Hon. Michael Chong: Mr Chair this committee is neutered It has no powers to introduce supply day motions no powers to test government confidence no powers to do the usual things that Parliament does At times of crisis the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government They came to office promising greater transparency but they broke almost every one of their promises They broke their promise on electoral reform They appointed an antiConservative organization Unifor to the media bailout fund In the last parliament they tried to give the PMO control over this legislature in Motion No 6 and in the last election they rigged the leaders debates in their favour and now they have suspended Parliament Instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members will the government commit to the full reopening of this House with all its powers with social distancing on Monday September 21 ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MrChair the governments objective is always to try to resume Parliament as it was before Today we have to live with this pandemic but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible That is clear and precise The opposition asked for more time especially to ask questions and that is what it got I would like my colleague to tell me one thing Over the past few weeks we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of Parliament and they have never responded I would like to know why Hon. Michael Chong: Mr Chair the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars previous pandemics and the October crisis in 1970 The governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the House The government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad It can not utter the word Taiwan It is failing to be strong and clear on Hong Kong and while the situation today is not that of decades past it is clear that Canada in the past stood for the rights of people in Hong Kong Canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on Hong Kong There are some 300000 Canadians living there and they are looking for the governments support When will this government act ? When will it threaten economic sanctions like the YOUS administration has ? When will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the YOUK government has ? When will it speak up against the Communist Party of Chinas United Front workers operating here in this country ? When will it do like Australia did in calling for an international investigation of COVID19 and organize an international coalition of likeminded democracies to defend Hong Kongers and the violation of the SinoBritish treaty ? Hon. Franois-Philippe Champagne (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Mr Chair I will remind the member to look at our statement of May 28 It is already done Canada has spoken to the world Canada has spoken up We have made a first declaration with our colleagues in Australia and the YOUK to say that we have deep concerns We all know that the one country two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in Hong Konghas made Hong Kong what it is today a beacon when it comes to trade and financing We know that and have expressed deep concern Again on May 28 with the United States with the United Kingdom and with Australia Canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by Beijing would undermine the very foundation the very principles that have made Hong Kong so successful We said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement I have called for a meeting of our Five Eyes partners tonight I will be chairing a meeting of our Five Eyes partners with the foreign ministers We will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of Hong Kong and we will do it with our allies","According to the introduction of the opposition party, it has the power to introduce supply day motions and test government confidence. And the opposition party hoped that through this regime, Canada would take stronger diplomatic action on Hong Kong and gave more support for 300,000 Canadians living there. The Minister of Foreign Affairs promised that the Canada government would be continuing to raise voices to stand up for the people of Hong Kong." "Mr. Larry Maguire (BrandonSouris, CPC): Mr Chair farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans Some put their applications in almost two months ago and not a dollar has flowed What is the point of having an advance payment program if there is no payment ? Can the Minister of Agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): MrChair I can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators This program is not administered by their officials but by partners I can assure you that under the circumstances they are doing their best to make the advance payments Mr. Larry Maguire: Farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely However did the minister approve a policy change on April 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic yes or no ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: MrChair a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program To make things easier for our administrators we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic Mr. Larry Maguire: Yes so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers The minister must take responsibility for these delays Farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program Who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? Or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: MrChair we are constantly working with the administrators of the program We are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country Mr. Larry Maguire: Livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high I told the Minister of Agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support When will the Minister of Agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: MrChair I would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to AgriStability We have also significantly improved the AgriRecovery program Over the past few years this program amounted to about 15million It is now 100million for pork and beef producers alone not counting the 775million for food processors Mr. Larry Maguire: Livestock producers in my riding and several across Canada are still waiting for the Minister of Agricultures promise for an AgriRecovery program When will the Minister of Agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her AgriRecovery promise ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: MrChair we have committed 50million to beef producers and 50million to pork producers through the AgriRecovery program Here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 and then the provinces implement it how they see fit Mr. Larry Maguire: The funding announced by the Minister of Agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient and what was promised has not been delivered This has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100000 feeder cattle to become overweight The industry is in a crisis How many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: MrChair once again we have significantly increased the amounts available through AgriRecovery It is 50million for beef producers and 50million for pork producers These programs are administered by the provinces There is also 775million for processors The Chair: MsChabot you have the floor","The Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food promised that under the circumstances, the government was doing its best to make the advance payments. Some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely. However, the opposition party suggested that there was policy change that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of the pandemic. The minister explained that they were still constantly working with the administrators of the program." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go to Mr Duvall from Hamilton Mountain Mr. Scott Duvall (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Thank you Mr Chair I will be splitting my time with the member for ElmwoodTranscona Mr Chair workers unions business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to COVID19 Thousands of Canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable For years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy but has failed to deliver Will this government fix the law before more Canadian workers lose their hardearned pensions ? Hon. Filomena Tassi (Minister of Labour): Thank you Mr Chair I would like to thank the member for Hamilton Mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file I remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of Bills C525 and C377 which were antiunion legislation Since then we have implemented a number of measures to protect workers We have increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks The member is well aware that in 2019 The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go back to Mr Duvall Mr. Scott Duvall: Mr Chair the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and will not protect workers and pensioners livelihoods once bankruptcy hits The government can protect severance termination pay pensions and benefits from corporate theft but will they do it yes or no ? Hon. Filomena Tassi: Mr Chair we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 including that the process for the CCAA be more open and transparent We mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful One thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for a short question Mr Duvall Mr. Scott Duvall: Thanks Mr Chair The minister is not answering the question Canadian workers are worried This is about their livelihoods Will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers and pensioners rights ? Hon. Filomena Tassi: Mr Chair we have made amendments and we are going to continue to make amendments We want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected I look forward to working collaboratively with the member","The opposition party raised the problem that thousands of Canadian workers were exposed and vulnerable, and might experience bankruptcy anytime. The opposition party also stated that the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and would not protect workers' and pensioners' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits. The Minister explained that they were continuing to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to Mr Blaikie ElmwoodTranscona Mr. Daniel Blaikie (ElmwoodTranscona, NDP): Thank you very much Mr Chair Twice following negotiations with the NDP the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities I am wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by Canadians with disabilities We are continuing that engagement and we will have more to say on that very soon Mr. Daniel Blaikie: I think that answer is entirely inadequate I have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors for instance the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance and it has not come Why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? I want to know the reason why this has not been announced yet Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we have established the COVID19 disability advisory group comprising experts in disability inclusion We are moving forward with the Canada emergency student benefit which will provide 2000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities We are doubling the Canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year We have done a lot but we will continue to do more and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Go ahead Mr Blaikie You have time for one short question Mr. Daniel Blaikie: Their commitment was not around an advisory commitment Their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic They have committed twice and they have done nothing When are they going to get around to it ? Why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair that is precisely why we are listening closely to the COVID19 disability advisory group to get expert advice We will have more to share There is more work to come and there will be results to be announced very soon","The minister explained that the government was committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by Canadians with disabilities and they were continuing that engagement. However, the opposition party argued that the support was delayed several times. The minister argued that they had done a lot, such as establishing the COVID-19 disability advisory group, comprising experts in disability inclusion." "Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Yesterday the Minister responsible for tourism ACOA and official languages was happy to close our national Tourism Week by announcing investments of 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across Canada Where is the big clap ? Some hon members : Hear hear ! Mr Chris dEntremont : There you go give her a clap More than 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote Canadian destinations Southern Ontario received 30 million northern Ontario received 7 million and western Canada received 35 million There is nothing for Atlantic Canada yet Knowing that we just had an announcement from the Minister of Transport that there will be no cruise ships in Atlantic Canada or anywhere in Canada this year resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses where is the program for Atlantic Canada ? Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): Mr Chair I commend my colleague for his important question I know he is a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada so I want to reassure him Obviously we want to support the tourism sector in Atlantic Canada ACOA has a clear direction to do just that If he has any good ideas please let him come forward and let us have a conversation Meanwhile Atlantic Canada will also be supported through Destination Canada Rather than doing marketing internationally we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country including in Atlantic Canada to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local Mr. Chris d'Entremont: That would be all great if we were not in the middle of a pandemic and you can not even cross the Nova ScotiaNew Brunswick border without having to selfisolate for two weeks It is going to make travelling through the Maritimes at least very difficult In Saint John New Brunswick 79 cruise ships and more than 270000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community At home in Nova Scotia it is about 118 or 130 vessels In terms of a minimum financial loss 165 million will not be generated There will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops Prince Edward Island which was expected to have a record attendance year will lose visits of 97 ships and 154000 passengers and 60 million to the provinces economy will be lost Mr Chair my question to the minister is this : Who is ACOA going to be working with and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? Hon. Mlanie Joly: I agree with my colleague The sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis It is a bit like the canary in the coal mine it was the first impacted and definitely it is still impacted That is why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country Again recently I had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across Atlantic Canada including Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador for the tourism sector There is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators They can have access to the wage subsidy They wanted to have access to it until later in the summer and it has been extended to the end of August They have access to the rent relief program the CEBA and ACOA funding As mentioned many times in this chamber Mr Chair if my colleague has clear examples to provide me let us work together Let us make sure the money flows to these people because they need it The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have only about a minute left Mr dEntremont Mr. Chris d'Entremont: MrChair like the minister last week I spoke with SimonPierre Poulin the director of Le Franco newspaper in Alberta about the Sauvons SaintJean movement He asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though Parliament is sitting in a different configuration Unfortunately I had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake Parliament The pandemic is also threatening the protection of French in minority communities The Liberal government made a commitment to modernize the Official Languages Act in the first six months of its mandate How will it proceed ? Hon. Mlanie Joly: MrChair it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that when it comes to language rights we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved As for Campus SaintJean I am very aware of the issue I had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in Alberta late Friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts That was the first point The second point is the modernization of the Official Languages Act I have the same concerns as my colleague Clearly we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions Finally we must be there to protect our language rights If the member has good ideas he can come to me to discuss them The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon member for ChicoutimiLe Fjord has the floor Mr. Richard Martel (ChicoutimiLe Fjord, CPC): MrChair some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the COVID19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the CERB Today I would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the CERB after October3 Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we ensured that those who switched over to the Canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it whether they were EI eligible or not We are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the COVID19 pandemic Mr. Richard Martel: According to a survey conducted by the Universit du Qubec TroisRivires research institute on small and medium size businesses the SaguenayLacSaintJean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of COVID19 This is not surprising In fact in our region the tourism industry generates more than 300million in economic activity including 58million for the cruise industry alone The 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start What does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? Hon. Mlanie Joly: MrChair it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected That is why we are responding to their concerns and worries We have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of August We are also providing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance as well as the 40000loans from the Canada emergency business account We have also just announced 70million in support for Canadas tourism sector I am having good talks with various stakeholders in Quebec including Martin Soucy from the Alliance de lindustrie touristique du Qubec In addition we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through Economic Development Canada Mr. Richard Martel: MrChair the tourism industry in the SaguenayLacSaintJean region is the sum of all its stakeholders Many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government Overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year even though they will have to pay their bills every month What does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? Hon. Mlanie Joly: I thank my colleague for his important question What he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan We really want to be able to reach these small businesses of which there are many in SaguenayLacSaintJean in Quebec and across the country That is why the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have committed an additional 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks We need to respond now and I will have more to say about it in the next few days Mr. Richard Martel: MrChair I was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage When I spoke with the blueberry growers in my area they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them Some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them When will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the Canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it including more businesses as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): MrMartel you have about a minute left Mr. Richard Martel: MrChair on May19 the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account When will the Canada emergency business account be available to them ? Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr Chair small businesses are the heart of all of our communities and we have been working really hard to help them Almost 650000 small businesses have received the loan which is really helping with those costs We have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support","The opposition party stated that the government announced investments of $70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across Canada, but it was not enough. There would be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops. The Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages explained that those who had experienced losses would be able to have access to the wage subsidy, the rent relief program, the CEBA and ACOA funding. Also, another minister explained that the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance had committed an additional $1 billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to Mr Epp the member for ChathamKentLeamington Mr. Dave Epp: Thank you Mr Chair I wish to congratulate my colleague Cathy McLeod On Tuesday May 26 she gained a new resident when Brinnley Lisette Huby was born to parents Adam and Carina Huby Carina is my daughter and that makes Brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest Canadian All are healthy and I thank God for Brinnleys healthy arrival Some honourable members : Hear hear ! Mr Dave Epp : Minister Jordan the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund while you deny its competitor our Ontario fisheries that fish on the Great Lakes the similar right to apply Minister why ? Hon. Bernadette Jordan (South ShoreSt. Margarets, Lib.): Mr Chair I want to thank my colleague for the very good question The Ontario inland fishers and the people in Ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies We are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries We are making sure that we are addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries Those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the RDAs Mr. Dave Epp: Minister will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair we are making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund We are making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it Mr. Dave Epp: According to Stats Canada before my granddaughter turns one year old her share of the federal debt will be over 39000 What is Minister Morneaus fiscal plan for Canada so that the interest on this debt does not cripple Canada with higher taxes ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair we realize that it is always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint We believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support Canadians and to support businesses In that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go back to Mr Epp Mr. Dave Epp: Minister when can Parliament or this semblance of it see that plan for economic prosperity ? The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the Chair The honourable minister may reply Hon. Bill Morneau: Thank you Mr Chair We have been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving Canadians an understanding of the investments that we are making through this pandemic Once the situation is more stable economically we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan Mr. Dave Epp: Mr Chair the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current governments level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations like my granddaughter will have to pay for it How much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the G7 countries is a function of our economy that is afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of Canadians We will continue to take that approach We believe that is the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge Mr. Dave Epp: What is the budget for stopping illegal American guns from getting through our borders ? Hon. Marc Garneau (Minister of Transport): Mr Chair I thank the member for the question I can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border We realize The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go back to Mr Epp Mr. Dave Epp: What is the budget then to fight governmenttrained and licensed Canadians in the court challenge that is now been triggered ? The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go to the honourable minister We are not getting any audio Mr. Dave Epp: I have a point of order Mr Chair Could I have some more time please ? The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Yes We are just going to hold time here momentarily Mr Epp Hon. Marc Garneau: I apologize Mr Chair Could I ask for the question to be repeated please ? The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr Epp what is your question again ? Mr. Dave Epp: What is the budget for fighting the governmenttrained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? Hon. Marc Garneau: Mr Chair I do not have the answer to that question but obviously the government will defend its position Mr. Dave Epp: Mr Chair COVID19 has exacerbated the problem of this governments policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks we are in a storm Unlike this government municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation The balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes The Federation of Canadian Municipalities says they need 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding so do municipalities slash services do they raise taxes or will we be there for the municipalities ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times and particularly today as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy That is why the Prime Minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund Municipalities will receive the full amount of their 202021 payment on June 10 This will help them with some of their nearterm liquidity issues The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We are now going to Mr Manly the member for NanaimoLadysmith Mr Manly go ahead","The minister placed assurance on coming out with a broader plan once the pandemic situation became more stable economically. At the same time, coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the G7 countries gave the government opportunities to invest on behalf of Canadians, and they would continue to take that approach. And the minister promised that there would not be higher taxes." "Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): Thank you MrChair Regardless of the COVID19 pandemic the last time I checked we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable The government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures Does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? If so how will it do so ? The government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery The government needs to be transparent When will the government provide its economic update ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair I would like to thank the hon member for his questions I agree it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to Canadians Every day we announce measures of course but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments It is very important The challenge at the moment is the economic situation which is very fluid When the situation is more stable we will have the opportunity to give an economic update Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: In my opinion MrChair it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable We have been asking for an economic update for the past month Even the Parliamentary Budget Officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner With only three weeks left in the House before the summer the clock is ticking The Quebec government will table its economic update later this month Will the federal government follow suit ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments it is very important Of course each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation As I said when the situation is a little more stable we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Once again MrChair when the situation is more stable it will be too late to do an economic update instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind Speaking of the recovery the Parliamentary Budget Officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan MrGiroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties views That would be a very good idea Why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair I would like to tell the hon member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do and to listen to peoples ideas and opinions not only in Parliament but also from our society So we keep listening Of course with our approach we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector The sooner the government tables its recovery plan the better Businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again It would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic Again that is what the Parliamentary Budget Officer says Can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery At this time it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy That is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery Obviously by gathering more information in Phase3 we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): MrSteMarie you have about 30seconds left Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: Thank you I understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time Can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? If not will it be before or after that ? Hon. Bill Morneau: We continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery and we are also listening to our colleagues in Parliament of course","The opposition party stressed that the government needed to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures. The minister explained that they felt that it was very important to consider what that need to do in each phase of the recovery. Thus,they would not announce an overall recovery plan any sooner." "Suzy Davies AM: That is great thank you Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools which I have just mentioned previously and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? Because we are in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds sometimes that is because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that overall secondary schools are in deficit Is there a correlation between those two positions that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum I think that is why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum With any sort of education reform you have got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand and on the other hand you need time to pilot things to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there is opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth So we have got to get that balance right Suzy Davies AM: Sorry that could be difficult to do if a school does not have money to create that space could not it ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes You raised two issues I think One about the difference between primary and secondary : I think what I am saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary but it is going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference In terms of funding probably everyone in this room and certainly me included would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that But you know that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford I think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time Suzy Davies AM: Can I ask just to keep it on track are you finding that that is having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? Meilyr Rowlands: I do not think you can make that straightforward correlation But if you do look at surpluses and reserves they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time but they have declined for secondary schools So I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because overall they are in deficit now So I think there is an argument for looking at that The other thing that is worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage So you know if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they are looking at these financial and staffing issues Suzy Davies AM: thank you Siân might develop that a little bit further on The final question from me is : there is a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well How do you think we can improve that ? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? Meilyr Rowlands: Obviously the most important resource for the education system is the teachers So it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit And we are not seeing them hit if I remember correctly even in primary let alone secondary So there is a challenge and I think we have got to look at this in the round We have got to make sure that we have both a longterm strategy and a shorter term strategy for this So long term we have got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into So that is partly to do with workload and staff wellbeing I think there is a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda that people need to take that seriously and there is work going on regarding the workload issue Suzy Davies AM: I suppose what I am coming to and I will finish with this Chair is we are asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let us call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they have barely got time for lunch as it is Do you think that is going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this albeit that there will be a phasing in ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think it will have an effect but I think it will have a positive effect I think the new curriculum one of the things about the new curriculum is that it reprofessionalises the profession It gives back agency and ownership to teachers I think it is really important And one of the reasons why teaching maybe has not been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum and now they have got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach So I think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession There are shortterm things we need to do of course as well I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching so I welcome some of the parttime Open University courses for example So there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary particularly in Welshmedium where there is a shortage So all those kinds of varied routes I think into teaching are important as well Yes I think it is well worth exploring that Yes Suzy Davies AM: Lovely Thank you Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Siân Gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern Siân Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes Just before going on to that just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue or do you intend to do anything on that ? Also looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England for example do we need perhaps to think about financial incentives not just for specific subjects but for going to schools where there are particular issues perhaps ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well yes there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers It is possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently and we have had the discussion with him And I think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period Now we are of course looking at initial teacher training but we have not looked at the first couple of years for many a year Sian Gwenllian AM: Right thank you very much And for your information I have commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue and that work will be published in due course So I hope to have a discussion with you about that Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you very much Yes Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the secondary schools that is where the problem lies is not it rather than the primary sector How much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 and that indeed over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review ? How much of a concern is that to you ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well it is of concern to us of course I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales because there are a number of good things we can report also The primary sector the special sector post16—there are many sectors that are doing well and I think a story that is particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year and we have also seen excellent practice in independent special schools which is also a sector— Because these are two sectors where there are very very vulnerable children in attendance So I think that is very encouraging But you are right of course the biggest concern for the system I would say is secondary schools and that is an issue of leadership and also of the quality of the teaching and learning Those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports So I believe that there is a need to find a longterm solution as I mentioned previously and also a shortterm solution to this problem In the long term to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well that is the main aim of the new curriculum So I am confident that that strategy is the right strategy It will take time as we mentioned previously it will take longer in secondary schools and that is for a number of reasons and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports So there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult possibly than primary schools The children themselves are older and they have greater challenges Life is more complicated for them possibly It is more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children and that is an important factor That is one of the reasons why I believe it is important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets and in some cases perhaps excessively so So we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum and of course Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently And also we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes Now there is work ongoing on that as well But there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors In primary schools for example the greatest and most obvious difference I would say is that you have got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time getting to know the child and possibly the family very well It is much more complicated for secondary school to do that there have to be systems put in place for that So there are many longterm things that we need to respond to But in the short term what is important is that those schools that because concern receive much more support and that is why I am glad and do welcome what is being piloted currently which is a system of supporting these schools the multiagency approach that is So that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago So I am very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout Wales I believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme Sian Gwenllian AM: You said previously that it is a because of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough Are there signs that that is improving ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well one of the things that is very positive about this pilot scheme is that it is not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme that is the schools that we have identified through inspections as needing to be put in a statutory category So there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern I believe that it is fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents staff leaving a change in leadership We use surveys with the children for instance and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties So there is not one single criteria alone that will tell you This is a school that is at risk of causing concern but taken together having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools I believe Sian Gwenllian AM: Well we will be coming on to that middle tier later on and perhaps that is where the problem lies namely that if there is not an agreed system from consortia and yourselves perhaps that is where the focus needs to be Meilyr Rowlands: I would say that it is not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multiagency support where all the agencies that support these schools are working together Sian Gwenllian AM: Well how long does it take therefore for a school to move from an improvement category in terms of special measures to be escalated then ? Because one sees sometimes that there is an excellent school and within five years time it is in the red So there is a great deal of variance in that Meilyr Rowlands: Well that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red Yes Perhaps Claire can respond to this Claire Morgan: On average secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years on average Some are shorter some are quite a considerable amount longer It is a little less for schools that go into significant improvement With primary schools of course it is much shorter because the issues are far less complex it is easier to bring about improvements in teaching When you have got large numbers of staff you have got large secondary schools it takes time to actually bring about those improvements but it is a long time just over two years when you think that some pupils maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— Certainly we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker and this is where the multiagency approach certainly is a positive step All partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves the regions local authorities the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement So it is getting an agreement on what the issues are and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication but that we support the school in the areas they need more support And we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category But as Meilyr already said there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern So the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well Sian Gwenllian AM: thank you And just finally from me for the time being at least the financial situation we have spoken about that already this morning If you could— If funding was injected into the system tomorrow say what would you spend it on ? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? Meilyr Rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there ? Sian Gwenllian AM: In the schools themselves if you were a school leader what would you— Meilyr Rowlands: Oh if I were a school leader Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes How would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? Meilyr Rowlands: It is difficult to make that decision because every school is different It is important of course that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves But certainly in the short term the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum That means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them The schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they have had plenty of time to think about this So it is now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in Wales to start to think Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools But that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and in that thinking to contact the community to talk to their children as well to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum because it is up to every school Although the new curriculum sets a framework it is up to each and every school to decide what they are going to teach and what they are teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twentyfirst century Therefore to give you a somewhat superficial answer I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers Jassa Scott: Can I just add one thing there ? I think what we have seen over the years recently is that local authorities to some extent have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools but the effect of that is that we have seen less funding going into some of the local authority services for example those services that support wellbeing that promote attendance and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools So I think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils and to improve themselves So I think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority if funding is available it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on to the middle tier if I can just ask about the quality of teaching ? There is been a consistent message from Estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in Wales The Government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area yet it is still an issue again in your annual report You have not said whether it is getting better or going in the right direction What is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think in nearly all the elements of our framework the picture is fairly similar So in terms of quality of teaching we have seen gradual but quite smallscale improvements in primary So you can feel that that is going in the right direction In secondary it is more or less level we have not seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse One of the things that is really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching It is about the teaching and learning those are two sides of the same coin if you like What is important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school From the perspective of the pupil it is the learning from the perspective of the teacher it is the teaching They are two sides to the same coin I think there is no doubt and I think there is general agreement that in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— I think it was Einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing you will get the same result So you are going to have to change something and what is changing is the curriculum I think there is general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching And that is exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school in their particular circumstances in the context of their particular children How can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? Sian Gwenllian AM: It does because one concern because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures we are talking about half of the schools almost and no improvement in the teaching quality in general So there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation and then there is a new curriculum that comes in I see the opportunities but these schools that are doing well are going to go Wow up there but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools Is not that where the focus should be and any additional funding that is allocated ? You talked about releasing teachers for training but perhaps it is in those particular schools that we need to focus Meilyr Rowlands: I do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more But then with regard to the other schools in a way there are two very broad categories which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— And I believe that the new curriculum and the general support that is going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools It is going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve But you are right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support and they are going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult because they will also have many other problems So I do agree— And you are not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in Wales so that percentage is relatively small the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support That is why this pilot scheme of the multiagency approach of supporting those schools is important I do believe that you are right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools I do not think it is enormous but certainly there is a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support","First of all, although a number of primary schools have surplus funds, still a lot of secondary schools are in deficit and low on funds. Also recent years have seen a shortage of teachers with appropriate initial teacher training. There are concerns as well that schools in the bottom layer may find it difficult to adapt to the new curriculum and have little improvement on teaching quality." "Meilyr Rowlands: Obviously the most important resource for the education system is the teachers So it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit And we are not seeing them hit if I remember correctly even in primary let alone secondary So there is a challenge and I think we have got to look at this in the round We have got to make sure that we have both a longterm strategy and a shorter term strategy for this So long term we have got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into So that is partly to do with workload and staff wellbeing I think there is a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda that people need to take that seriously and there is work going on regarding the workload issue Suzy Davies AM: I suppose what I am coming to and I will finish with this Chair is we are asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let us call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they have barely got time for lunch as it is Do you think that is going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this albeit that there will be a phasing in ? Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think it will have an effect but I think it will have a positive effect I think the new curriculum one of the things about the new curriculum is that it reprofessionalises the profession It gives back agency and ownership to teachers I think it is really important And one of the reasons why teaching maybe has not been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum and now they have got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach So I think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession There are shortterm things we need to do of course as well I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching so I welcome some of the parttime Open University courses for example So there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary particularly in Welshmedium where there is a shortage So all those kinds of varied routes I think into teaching are important as well Yes I think it is well worth exploring that Yes Suzy Davies AM: Lovely Thank you Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Siân Gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern Siân Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes Just before going on to that just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue or do you intend to do anything on that ? Also looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England for example do we need perhaps to think about financial incentives not just for specific subjects but for going to schools where there are particular issues perhaps ? Meilyr Rowlands: Well yes there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers It is possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently and we have had the discussion with him And I think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period Now we are of course looking at initial teacher training but we have not looked at the first couple of years for many a year","Meilyr Rowlands thought it was a challenge to recruit new teachers and improve the initial training.In the long term, he believed that education should become more attractive for young people and more mature people to go into, while in the short term, looking at initial teacher training would be the top priority." Meilyr Rowlands: Well it is of concern to us of course I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales because there are a number of good things we can report also The primary sector the special sector post16—there are many sectors that are doing well and I think a story that is particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving We have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year and we have also seen excellent practice in independent special schools which is also a sector— Because these are two sectors where there are very very vulnerable children in attendance So I think that is very encouraging But you are right of course the biggest concern for the system I would say is secondary schools and that is an issue of leadership and also of the quality of the teaching and learning Those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports So I believe that there is a need to find a longterm solution as I mentioned previously and also a shortterm solution to this problem In the long term to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well that is the main aim of the new curriculum So I am confident that that strategy is the right strategy It will take time as we mentioned previously it will take longer in secondary schools and that is for a number of reasons and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports So there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult possibly than primary schools The children themselves are older and they have greater challenges Life is more complicated for them possibly It is more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children and that is an important factor That is one of the reasons why I believe it is important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets and in some cases perhaps excessively so So we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum and of course Qualifications Wales is carrying out that work currently And also we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes Now there is work ongoing on that as well But there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors In primary schools for example the greatest and most obvious difference I would say is that you have got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time getting to know the child and possibly the family very well It is much more complicated for secondary school to do that there have to be systems put in place for that So there are many longterm things that we need to respond to But in the short term what is important is that those schools that because concern receive much more support and that is why I am glad and do welcome what is being piloted currently which is a system of supporting these schools the multiagency approach that is So that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago So I am very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout Wales I believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme,"The children in secondary schools themselves are older and therefore have greater challenges. As a result, it's also more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children." Sian Gwenllian AM: It does because one concern because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under Estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures we are talking about half of the schools almost and no improvement in the teaching quality in general So there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation and then there is a new curriculum that comes in I see the opportunities but these schools that are doing well are going to go Wow up there but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools Is not that where the focus should be and any additional funding that is allocated ? You talked about releasing teachers for training but perhaps it is in those particular schools that we need to focus,There were 12 percent of secondary schools under Estonian review and 11 percent of them were in special measures. He worried that these schools lacked enough support and fundings to adapt to the new curriculum reform and face greater difficulties. "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? Does this vary across the different regions ? Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly does vary but I will ask Jassa to go into more detail Jassa Scott: We have not directly inspected the regional consortia since—I think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them But I think over the last three years we do feel that they have improved their knowledge They are still relatively new in the big scheme of things So they did take a little while to embed and I think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017 But more recently they have improved their knowledge of individual schools strengths and areas for improvement and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools and particularly schools causing concern But obviously as we have been talking about this morning there is still work to do I think they have prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker Even though we have had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there we have not seen quite the focus that we have seen on other areas I think for schools causing concern what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection so we are getting some firsthand evidence of their impact through that—they are not always focused in those schools causing concern on improving teaching and learning so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there I think generally their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools and I think sometimes that is because they are struggling to recruit appropriate specialists to support with secondary or perhaps they do not have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region So they are having to work a bit harder to find effective practice to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools We will be over the next year looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work Well we think we will be—we have not had our remit letter yet But that is one of the areas we have discussed about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth","Jassa Scott believed they had prioritized the work that schools were doing around literacy and numeracy, yet the support for schools to develop digital competence were a bit weaker. Also their support for secondary schools had less impact across the consortia than for primary schools." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia and how robust are those inspections ? What areas do you cover ? Jassa Scott: Well regional consortia are not actually statutory entities at the moment and we do not have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia What we have are powers to inspect school improvement So on each of our local authority inspections there will be usually an area that we are looking at that relates to school improvement and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned What we have agreed with Welsh Government is that over the next few years we will take a thematic approach So the first area that we have said is that we will look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform and report on that So that will report specifically on the different ones but it would not be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should they be on a statutory footing ? Jassa Scott: Well I think that is something to be discussed over the next few years There is obviously local government legislation that has been debated recently which has the potential to create corporate joint committees and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there So there may be an opportunity if that is created to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that So I think there is an opportunity I think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and ultimately it is looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that is the important bit I think ultimately to see the impact there So we are looking at them in that way and then taking that thematic approach but we will keep reviewing it over the next couple of years","They agreed that the first area they would look specifically at would be the work of consortia to support curriculum work. Local government legislation were also under debate, which was an opportunity to adapt the inspection to look specifically at their work." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Morning all In your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective that children begin to feel at a very early age that they can not do certain things I do not know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcomebased evidence—whatever it is quite worrying But what do you think the longterm effect on a childs development has in that respect ? Claire Morgan: It is probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings But in a minority of schools and settings as you have picked up children are often introduced to things too early So they are introduced to phonics they are introduced to learning to read when they are not at that developmental stage And really long term it means the children lose confidence because if they are introduced to these things too early they do not succeed they tend to need additional support and it can give them a negative impression it can give them negative thoughts about their ability So we need to address that and really it is about— Dawn Bowden AM: Sorry what sort of age range are we talking about here ? Claire Morgan: These would be children from three to five So this is very very early on Dawn Bowden AM: And is there something then in that—and I do not think there is much we can do about that but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a years difference in their age group so they are born just before 1 September or just after 1 September ? So that is a huge is not it at that point in their development ?","She held the view that children aged 3-5 were often introduced to things too early when they're not at that developmental stage. As a result, in the long term children would lose confidence with a lot of negative impressions." "Dawn Bowden AM: Right That is fine In terms of reading and literacy skills we still remain quite low in the Programme for International Student Assessment ratings for reading and I know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard What do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think literacy has been and still is and still needs to be a top priority I mean literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education so it really does need to be a top priority I think it has been a high priority but we need to continue prioritising it We have seen some improvements over the years For example we have given a lot of attention to writing over the years and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way not just short sentences but having the opportunity to have extended writing and there is some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect But almost ironically the same sort of issue is true of reading So it is not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books So I gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention I think the other thing I would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase it is not just for very young children—it is really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school One of the things we have been worried about and I think there was some reflection of this in PISA is that there are strengths in reading in Wales So PISA for example said that children in Wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets but what they are saying and they are saying this themselves is that the love of books is decreasing and the number of children who read regularly whole books So I think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example to show their own interest in reading to encourage children to read themselves","He believed literacy still needed to be the top priority, because it was something that underpinned the rest of education. Yet work was still needed to be done to continue prioritizing it." "Dawn Bowden AM: Sure Can I just move you on then to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you are satisfied with the progress in numeracy because I think we were doing better on the PISA results in maths in Wales than we did previously ? So what are your thoughts on that ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think there is a fairly clear good news story here PISA shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed I think to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy I think there is much less predictability in that work you can not approach it in a formulaic way either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it There is much more problem solving It is about applying what you have learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum I think that that GCSE numeracy has built on the work that is been done lower down on the national numeracy framework which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problemsolving situation That has been a really good news story really Dawn Bowden AM: That is something to be positive about anyway That is good My final question Chair is : in your view to what extent is Wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 20201 cycle for PISA ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think that that target is somewhat arbitrary but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—I think we would expect to see those improvements we have seen in science and in mathematics to continue We have talked about reading and I think we will be giving more attention to reading I think the education system more generally hopefully will give more attention to reading So I would hope to see improvements there as well The only other thing I would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading and the reason for that is you do not do a lot mathematics or science in the home But the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors more so maybe than mathematics and science So I think that is another reason why I think a communityschool approach is really important You need to get everybody on board it is not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it is important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important","Meilyr Rowlands thought it was a fairly clear good news to see the improvements on the PISA results in maths, which could be attributed to the new GCSE mathematics numeracy. Also they agreed it was a good news story to see much more mathematics knowledge to be applied in a problem-solving situation. With regard to the effects of schools, Meilyr Rowlands held that the school had a larger effect on mathematics and science than reading." "Lynne Neagle AM: We have got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils If I can start and ask you how concerning is it that the between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment Meilyr Rowlands: Yes I think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things I have noted in the annual report So I think it is a concern to us I think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries for example in PISA we do compare quite well in terms of equity There is also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased so that we are in a way running to keep still And I think also as I was suggesting about the reading poverty really is a social phenomenon Schools can not solve that on their own So there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty has not closed but that is not to say that schools can not do something about it and I have suggested in the annual report a sort of a twopronged approach One is the new curriculum I think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning better teaching and learning helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately So they gain more from it that their peers So I think improving teaching and learning and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom So that is one approach and then the other approach which I have also mentioned earlier is having a communityfocused approach to schools The schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty are the schools that take that kind of approach It means helping the pupils It means helping their families It is about making pupil wellbeing really high on the agenda It is very difficult for children to do well in school if they have got all kinds of things happening in their background So it is important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them So it is quite a complex— It is challenging for schools to go down this route and I think the more help we can give schools to take that approach the better But the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it They have better engagement from parents from the families and that then reflects back on the work of the children","There was a two-pronged approach to solve the problem. One is the new curriculum, which was all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom. Poor pupils could gain more from it than their peers. The other one was to have a community-focused approach to schools through helping the pupils and their families." "Suzy Davies AM: Yes just quickly Obviously I think we have all been to schools where the PDG is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say But I just wanted to interrogate the deprivation a little bit because of course even though as you say there is perhaps more equity in Wales one of the reasons for that is because our children from betteroff backgrounds do less well and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the United Kingdom So whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful that is one of the reasons—that our betteroff children are not doing as well as perhaps they might do Is that a concern as well ? We do not want this rush to the middle do we ? Meilyr Rowlands: I think it is essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can absolutely So it is not quite the same issue but we have talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well Suzy Davies AM: They are not the same Meilyr Rowlands: They are not the same clearly because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds Differentiation is a challenge for schools but it is absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can So in things like PISA in terms of reading for example we can not just say it is that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve And I think that is why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have whether they are more able whether they are advantaged or whether they are disadvantaged","Because they had to make sure that more able and talented children do well, who are mainly from poor backgrounds." "Jassa Scott: Yes you are right As we mentioned earlier we do pupil surveys before all our inspections and across a number of those indicators like How well does the school listen ? Do adults in school care about me ? How well does the school deal with bullying ? —quite a lot those ones around wellbeing do tail off Nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence down to half at key stage 4 as you say And I think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : I think one of the factors is that pupils face sometimes more challenges as they get older in those teenage years but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning And I think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they are getting about wellbeing in terms of their lessons in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on So they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school but the pupils do not notice I think we have already touched upon things like the differences in the way that at primary school you would tend to have a goto adult which is your teacher The best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people but it is more of a challenge to make sure that that happens because of the way they are operating We still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and wellbeing support which we have made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports And I think I already touched upon the fact that sometimes when the budget is tight it can be some of those—they are not peripheral in their importance but they are not the teacher in the classroom : wellbeing support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding So I think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job but perhaps they are not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment Maybe there a fewer of them around So I think there is not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally as they get older So you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— And that might explain some of the difference with primary where generally they are quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask Lynne Neagle AM: So it is not that secondary schools—because you have said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and wellbeing Jassa Scott: I think there is an element that it is more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that wholestaff awareness of some of the challenges And one of the pieces of work we have done recently is around adverse childhood experiences and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it Once you have trained your staff then they have got that knowledge They are the ones who are working day to day with the schools Secondary schools have not always taken a wholeschool approach to that They might have trained a set of staff So maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding but also those staff are not spending the same amount of time with pupils So in terms of getting to know pupils picking up on signs that they may be struggling or that there might be concerns—it is much more of a challenge You have got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you have got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it is needed","First of all, secondary school pupils got to notice the differences between their everyday life at school and somehow felt not cared about. It was also more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges. That is to say, it was more difficult for teachers in secondary schools to pick up signs that pupils may be struggling." "PhD G: Well preparation of the French test data actually So it means that well it is a digit French database of microphone speech downsampled to eight kilohertz and I ve added noise to one part with the actually the Aurora two noises And so this is a training part And then pause the remaining part I use for testing and with other kind of noises So we can So this is almost ready I m preparing the the HTK baseline for this task And Professor F: OK So the HTK base lines so this is using mel cepstra and so on or ? OK And again I guess the p the plan is to then given this What s the plan again ? PhD G: The plan with pause these data ? Professor F: With So So Does i Just remind me of what what you were going to do with the what what what what s y You just described what you ve been doing So if you could remind me of what you are going to be doing Grad C: Tell him about the cube PhD G: Well The cube ? I should tell him about the cube ? we actually we want to mmm analyze three dimensions the feature dimension the pause training data dimension and the test data dimension Well what we want to do is first we have number for each pause task So we have the TI digit task the Italian task the French task pause and the Finnish task So we have numbers with pause systems I mean I mean neural networks trained on the task data And then to have systems with neural networks trained on data from the same language if possible with well using a more generic database which is phonetically phonetically balanced and Professor F: So so we had talked I guess we had talked at one point about maybe the language ID corpus ? Is that a possibility for that ? PhD G: Ye pause but these corpus w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also The CallFriend is for language ind identification Well anyway these corpus are all telephone speech So This could be a pause a problem for Why ? Because the the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech They are downsampled to eight kilohertz but but they are not with telephone bandwidth Professor F: That s really funny is not it ? I mean cuz th this whole thing is for pause developing new standards for the telephone PhD G: but the the idea is to compute the feature before pause the before sending them to the Well pause you do not do not send speech you send features computed on th the pause the device Professor F: Mm I know but the reason Oh I see so your point is that it s it s it s the features are computed locally and so they are not necessarily telephone bandwidth or telephone distortions PhD A: Did you pause happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ? Professor F: that s wh that s wh that s what I meant I said there s there s there s an OGI language ID not the not the the CallFriend is a is a LDC w thing right ? PhD G: Yea there are also two other databases One they call the multi language database and another one is a twenty two language something like that But it s also telephone speech PhD A: Oh they are ? OK Professor F: But I m not sure I mean we r e e The bandwidth should not be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and and filtered right ? So it s just the fact that it s not telephone And there are so many other differences between these different databases I mean some of this stuff s recorded in the car and some of it s I mean there s there s many different acoustic differences So I m not sure if I mean unless we are going to include a bunch of car recordings in the in the training database I m not sure if it s completely rules it out if our if we if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there s going to be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort of add another mismatch if you will i i I I guess the question is how important is it to for us to get multiple languages in there PhD G: but Mm Well actually for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases we we already have English Spanish and French with microphone speech Professor F: So that s what you are thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ? PhD G: Well for the multilingual part we were thinking of using these three databases Professor F: And for the difference in phonetic context pause that you ? Provide that PhD G: Well this actually these three databases are generic databases So w f for for Italian which is close to Spanish French and i i TI digits we have both digits pause training data and also pause more general training data So Mmm Professor F: Well we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk which is is microphone data for for English PhD G: perhaps there is also TIMIT Professor F: Right so there s plenty of stuff around OK so anyway th the basic plan is to test this cube Yes PhD E: To fill in the cube Professor F: To fill i fill it in OK PhD G: and perhaps pause We were thinking that perhaps the cross language issue is not so big of a issue Well w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross language stuff I mean training training a net on a language and testing a for another language Mmm Perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages But with a general database general databases you So that th Well the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language or a generic net Professor F: depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` PhD G: but not trained on a Professor F: So if you are talking about for producing these discriminative features pause that we are talking about pause you can not do that Because because the what they are asking for is is a feature set Right ? And so we are the ones who have been weird by by doing this training But if we say `` No you have to have a different feature set for each language `` I think this is ver going to be very bad I mean in principle I mean conceptually it s sort of like they want a re comment well they want a replacement for mel cepstra So we say `` OK this is the year two thousand we ve got something much better than mel cepstra It s you know gobbledy gook `` OK ? And so we give them these gobbledy gook features but these gobbledy gook features are supposed to be good for any language Cuz you do not know who s going to call and you know I mean so it s it s it s how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone So thi this is their image Someone picks up the phone right ? And and he he picks up the ph PhD G: but the the application is there is a target language for the application Professor F: Well But no but y you you pick up the phone you talk on the phone and it sends features out OK so the phone does not know what a what what your language is PhD G: if If it s th in the phone but Professor F: But that s the image that they have PhD G: well it that that could be th at the server s side Professor F: but that s the image they have right ? So that s that s I mean one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it s distributed speech recognition where the probabilistic part and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers and you compute features of the on the phone So that s that s what we are involved in We might might or might not agree that that s the way it will be in ten years but that s that s that s what they are asking for So so I think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross language Now it s the OGI folks perspective right now that probably that s not the biggest deal And that the biggest deal is the envir acoustic environment mismatch And they may very well be right but I I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true If that s true we do not need to worry so much Maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth that that that the rest does not matter the other thing is this notion of training to which I I guess they are starting to look at up there comment training to something more like articulatory features and if you have something that s just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across you know a wide range of languages but so I do not th I know unfortunately I do not I see what you are comi where you are coming from I think but I do not think we can ignore it PhD G: So we we really have to do test with a real cross language I mean tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian or Or we can train or else can we train a net on a range of languages and which can include the test the test the target language Professor F: so there s there s This is complex So ultimately as I was saying I think it does not fit within their image that you switch nets based on language Now can you include the the target language ? from a purist s standpoint it would be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point `` OK so you put in the German and the Finnish now what do you do when somebody has Portuguese ? `` you know ? and however you are not it is not actually a constraint in this evaluation So I would say if it looks like there s a big difference to put it in then we would make note of it and then we probably put in the other because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that you know it s not so bad as long as we we note it and say `` Look we did do this `` PhD A: And so ideally what you would want to do is you would want to run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages And that way you can say `` Well `` you know `` we are going to build it for what we think are pause the most common ones `` but if that somebody uses it with a different language you know `` here s what s you are l here s what s likely to happen `` Professor F: cuz the truth is is that it s it s not like there are I mean al although there are thousands of languages from the point of view of cellular companies there are not There s you know there s fifty or something you know ? So an and they are not you know with the exception of Finnish which I guess it s pretty different from most most things it s it s most of them are like at least some of the others And so our guess that Spanish is like Italian and and so on I guess Finnish is a is is a little bit like Hungarian supposedly right ? PhD A: I do not know anything about Finnish Professor F: Or is I think well I kn oh well I know that H H I mean I m not a linguist but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family But they are just these you know countries that are pretty far apart from one another have I guess people rode in on horses and brought their","The team was gathering data from different languages and preparing relevant baselines. The professor reiterated that the multilingual focus was key since the reason for this project was to replace mel cepstra with a more robust, multilingual model. They needed sufficient diversity in the languages they used." "PhD G: and perhaps pause We were thinking that perhaps the cross language issue is not so big of a issue Well w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross language stuff I mean training training a net on a language and testing a for another language Mmm Perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages But with a general database general databases you So that th Well the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language or a generic net Professor F: depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` PhD G: but not trained on a Professor F: So if you are talking about for producing these discriminative features pause that we are talking about pause you can not do that Because because the what they are asking for is is a feature set Right ? And so we are the ones who have been weird by by doing this training But if we say `` No you have to have a different feature set for each language `` I think this is ver going to be very bad I mean in principle I mean conceptually it s sort of like they want a re comment well they want a replacement for mel cepstra",Grad G thought that the multi-lingual aspect of the model was not very important. The professor disagreed. He explained that the point of the project was to have something robust that could apply to many languages. "PhD G: and perhaps pause We were thinking that perhaps the cross language issue is not so big of a issue Well w w we perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross language stuff I mean training training a net on a language and testing a for another language Mmm Perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages But with a general database general databases you So that th Well the the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language or a generic net Professor F: depen it depen it depends how you mean `` using the net `` PhD G: but not trained on a Professor F: So if you are talking about for producing these discriminative features pause that we are talking about pause you can not do that Because because the what they are asking for is is a feature set Right ? And so we are the ones who have been weird by by doing this training But if we say `` No you have to have a different feature set for each language `` I think this is ver going to be very bad I mean in principle I mean conceptually it s sort of like they want a re comment well they want a replacement for mel cepstra So we say `` OK this is the year two thousand we ve got something much better than mel cepstra It s you know gobbledy gook `` OK ? And so we give them these gobbledy gook features but these gobbledy gook features are supposed to be good for any language Cuz you do not know who s going to call and you know I mean so it s it s it s how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone So thi this is their image Someone picks up the phone right ? And and he he picks up the ph PhD G: but the the application is there is a target language for the application Professor F: Well But no but y you you pick up the phone you talk on the phone and it sends features out OK so the phone does not know what a what what your language is PhD G: if If it s th in the phone but Professor F: But that s the image that they have PhD G: well it that that could be th at the server s side Professor F: but that s the image they have right ? So that s that s I mean one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years But the particular image that the cellular industry has right now is that it s distributed speech recognition where the probabilistic part and and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers and you compute features of the on the phone So that s that s what we are involved in We might might or might not agree that that s the way it will be in ten years but that s that s that s what they are asking for So so I think that th th it is an important issue whether it works cross language Now it s the OGI folks perspective right now that probably that s not the biggest deal And that the biggest deal is the envir acoustic environment mismatch And they may very well be right but I I was hoping we could just do a test and determine if that was true If that s true we do not need to worry so much Maybe maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth that that that the rest does not matter the other thing is this notion of training to which I I guess they are starting to look at up there comment training to something more like articulatory features and if you have something that s just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across you know a wide range of languages but so I do not th I know unfortunately I do not I see what you are comi where you are coming from I think but I do not think we can ignore it PhD G: So we we really have to do test with a real cross language I mean tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian or Or we can train or else can we train a net on a range of languages and which can include the test the test the target language Professor F: so there s there s This is complex So ultimately as I was saying I think it does not fit within their image that you switch nets based on language Now can you include the the target language ? from a purist s standpoint it would be nice not to because then you can say when because surely someone is going to say at some point `` OK so you put in the German and the Finnish now what do you do when somebody has Portuguese ? `` you know ? and however you are not it is not actually a constraint in this evaluation So I would say if it looks like there s a big difference to put it in then we would make note of it and then we probably put in the other because we have so many other problems in trying to get things to work well here that that you know it s not so bad as long as we we note it and say `` Look we did do this `` PhD A: And so ideally what you would want to do is you would want to run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages And that way you can say `` Well `` you know `` we are going to build it for what we think are pause the most common ones `` but if that somebody uses it with a different language you know `` here s what s you are l here s what s likely to happen `` Professor F: cuz the truth is is that it s it s not like there are I mean al although there are thousands of languages from the point of view of cellular companies there are not There s you know there s fifty or something you know ? So an and they are not you know with the exception of Finnish which I guess it s pretty different from most most things it s it s most of them are like at least some of the others And so our guess that Spanish is like Italian and and so on I guess Finnish is a is is a little bit like Hungarian supposedly right ? PhD A: I do not know anything about Finnish Professor F: Or is I think well I kn oh well I know that H H I mean I m not a linguist but I guess Hungarian and Finnish and one of the one of the languages from the former Soviet Union are in this sort of same family But they are just these you know countries that are pretty far apart from one another have I guess people rode in on horses and brought their","The team arrived at the conclusion that they only needed sufficient breadth, not every possible language. As long as most languages used over cellular phones were covered, they were fine. The similarity between different languages would help them cover more ground with fewer languages." "PhD E: D I begin to work with the Italian database to nnn to with the f front end and with the HTK program and the And I trained eh with the Spanish two neural network with PLP and with LogRASTA PLP I do not know exactly what is better if if LogRASTA or JRASTA Professor F: Well JRASTA has the potential to do better but it does not always It s i i JRASTA is more complicated It s it s instead of doing RASTA with a log you are doing RASTA with a log like function that varies depending on a J parameter which is supposed to be sensitive to the amount of noise there is So it s sort of like the right transformation to do the filtering in is dependent on how much noise there is And so in JRASTA you attempt to do that It s a little complicated because once you do that you end up in some funny domain and you end up having to do a transformation afterwards which requires some tables And so it s it s it s a little messier there s more ways that it can go wrong but if if if you are careful with it it can do better PhD E: It s a bit I will do better and I think to to to recognize the Italian digits with the neural netw Spanish neural network and also to train another neural network with the Spanish digits the database of Spanish digits And I working that But prepa to prepare the the database are difficult Was for me n it was a difficult work last week with the labels because the the program with the label obtained that I have the Albayzin is different w to the label to train the neural network And pause that is another work that we must to do to to change Professor F: I I did not understand PhD E: for example Albayzin database was labeled automatically with HTK It s not hand it s not labels by hand Professor F: Oh `` l labeled `` I have a p I had a problem with the pronunciation PhD E: I m sorry The labels I m sorry The labels Professor F: So OK so let s start over So TI TIMI TIMIT s hand labeled and and you are saying about the Spanish ? PhD E: The Spanish labels ? That was in different format that the format for the them the program to train the neural network I necessary to convert And someti well PhD A: So you are just having a problem converting the labels PhD E: It s it s but n yes because they have one program Feacalc but no l LabeCut l LabeCut but do not does not eh include the HTK format to convert And I do not know what I ask e even I ask to Dan Ellis what I can do that and h they he say me that h he does does not any any s any form to to do that And at the end I think that with LabeCut I can transfer to ASCII format and HTK is an ASCII format And I m do another one program to put ASCII format of HTK to ase ay ac ASCII format to Exceed and they used LabCut to to pass but well I know how we can did that do that Professor F: Sure So it s just usual kind of sometimes say housekeeping right ? To get these get these things sorted out So it seems like there s there s some peculiarities of the of each of these dimensions that are getting sorted out And then if if you work on getting the assembly lines together and then the the pieces sort of get ready to go into the assembly line and gradually can start you know start turning the crank more or less And we have a lot more computational capability here than they do at OGI so I think that i if What s what s great about this is it sets it up in a very systematic way so that once these all of these you know mundane but real problems get sorted out we can just start turning the crank and and push all of us through and then finally figure out what s best Grad C: I I was thinking two things the first thing was we we actually had thought of this as sort of like not not in stages comment but more along the the time axis Just kind of like one stream at a time je je je je je comment check out the results and and go that way Professor F: Oh sure No I m just saying I m just thinking of it like loops right ? And so y y y if you had three nested loops that you have a choice for this a choice for this and a choice for that right ? And you are going through them all That that s what I meant And the thing is that once you get a better handle on how much you can realistically do concurrently on different machines different SPERTs and so forth and you see how long it takes on what machine and so forth you can stand back from it and say `` OK if we look at all these combinations we are talking about and combinations of combinations and so forth `` you will probably find you can not do it all OK so then at that point we should sort out which ones do we throw away Which of the combinations across you know what are the most likely ones and And I still think we could do a lot of them I mean it would not surprise me if we could do a hundred of them or something But probably when you include all the combinations you are actually talking about a thousand of them or something and that s probably more than we can do but a hundred is a lot And and Grad C: and the the second thing was about scratch space And I think you sent an email about e scratch space for for people to work on And I know that Stephane s working from an NT machine so his his home directory exists somewhere else Professor F: His his stuff is somewhere else I mean my point I I want to thanks for bring it back to that My th I want to clarify my point about that that that Chuck repeated in his note We are over the next year or two we are going to be upgrading the networks in this place but right now they are still all te pretty much all ten megabit lines And we have reached the this the machines are getting faster and faster So it actually has reached the point where it s a significant drag on the time for something to move the data from one place to another So you you do not w especially in something with repetitive computation where you are going over it multiple times you do do not want to have the the data that you are working on distant from where it s being where the computation s being done if you can help it Now we are getting more disk for the central file server which since it s not a computational server would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said But the idea is that suppose you are working with this big bunch of multi multilingual databases you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server Then when you are working with something and accessing it many times you copy the piece of it that you are working with over to some place that s close to where the computation is and then do all the work there And then that way you you will not have the the network you will not be clogging the network for yourself and others That s the idea So it s going to take us It may be too late for this p precise crunch we are in now but we are It s going to take us a couple weeks at least to get the the amount of disk we are going to be getting We are actually going to get I think four more thirty six gigabyte drives and put them on another another disk rack We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had so we are getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between primarily between this project and the Meetings Meetings Project But we ve put another I guess there s another eighteen gigabytes that s that s in there now to help us with the immediate crunch But are you saying So I do not know where pause you are Stephane where you are doing your computations If i so you are on an NT machine so you are using some external machine PhD G: it Well to It s Nutmeg and Mustard I think Professor F: Do you know these yet ? PhD G: I do not know what kind Professor F: OK are these are these computational servers or something ? I m I ve been kind of out of it PhD G: I think I think so Professor F: Unfortunately these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet have not been have not been doing much computing personally so so those are computational servers So I guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers PhD A: Right I m not sure what s available on is it you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ? Professor F: Well you are the you are the disk czar now PhD A: Well I will check on that Professor F: so basically Chuck will be the one who will be sorting out what disk needs to be where and so on and I will be the one who says `` OK spend the money `` So Which I mean n these days if you are talking about scratch space it does not increase the need for backup and I think it s not that big a d and the the disks themselves are not that expensive Right now it s PhD A: What you can do when you are on that machine is just go to the slash scratch directory and do a DF minus K and it will tell you if there s space available and if there is then Professor F: But was not it I think Dave was saying that he preferred that people did not put stuff in slash scratch It s more putting in d s XA or XB or PhD A: Well there s different there there s Right So there s the slash X whatever disks and then there s slash scratch And both of those two kinds are not backed up And if it s called `` slash scratch `` it means it s probably an internal disk to the machine And so that s the kind of thing where like if OK if you do not have an NT but you have a a a Unix workstation and they attach an external disk comment it will be called `` slash X something `` if it s not backed up and it will be `` slash D something `` if it is backed up And if it s inside the machine on the desk it s called `` slash scratch `` But the problem is if you ever get a new machine they take your machine away It s easy to unhook the external disks put them back on the new machine but then your slash scratch is gone So you do not want to put anything in slash scratch that you want to keep around for a long period of time But if it s a copy of say some data that s on a server you can put it on slash scratch because first of all it s not backed up and second it does not matter if that machine disappears and you get a new machine because you just recopy it to slash scratch So tha that s why I was saying you could check slash scratch on those on on Mustard and and Nutmeg to see if if there s space that you could use there You could also use slash X whatever disks on Mustard and Nutmeg and we do have I mean so so you it s better to have things local if you are going to run over them lots of times so you do not have to go to the network Professor F: Right so es so especially if you are right if you are if you are taking some piece of the training corpus which usually resides in where Chuck is putting it all on the on the file server then it s fine if it s not backed up because if it g g gets wiped out or something y I mean it is backed up on the other disk So PhD A: so one of the things that I need to I ve started looking at is this the appropriate time to talk about the disk space stuff ? I ve started looking at disk space Dan David put a new drive onto Abbott that s an X disk which means it s not backed up So I ve been going through and copying data that is you know some kind of corpus stuff usually that that we ve got on a CD ROM or something onto that new disk to free up space pause on other disks And so far I ve copied a couple of Carmen s databases over there We have not deleted them off of the slash DC disk that they are on right now in Abbott but we I would like to go through sit down with you about some of these other ones and see if we can move them onto this new disk also There s there s a lot more space there and it will free up more space for doing the experiments and things So anything that that you do not need backed up we can put on this new disk but if it s experiments and you are creating files and things that you are going to need you probably want to have those on a disk that s backed up just in case something comment goes wrong So So far I ve I ve copied a couple of things but I have not deleted anything off of the old disk to make room yet and I have not looked at the any of the Aurora stuff except for the Spanish So I I guess I will need to get together with you and see what data we can move onto the new disk Professor F: I I just an another question occurred to me is is what were you folks planning to do about normalization ? PhD G: Well we were thinking about using this systematically for all the experiments So but So that this could be another dimension but we think perhaps we can use the the best normalization scheme as OGI is using so with parameters that they use there Professor F: I think that s a good idea I mean it s i i we we seem to have enough dimensions as it is So probably if we sort of take their probably the on line line normalization because then it comment it s if we do anything else we are going to end up having to do on line normalization too so we may as well just do on line normalization So So that it s plausible for the final thing Good So I guess th the other topic I maybe we are already there or almost there is goals for the for next week s meeting i i i it seems to me that we want to do is flush out what you put on the board here You know maybe have it be somewhat visual a little bit Grad C: OK Like a s like a slide ? Professor F: so w we can say what we are doing And also if you have pause sorted out this information about how long i roughly how long it takes to do on what and you know what we can how many of these trainings and testings and so forth that we can realistically do then one of the big goals of going there next week would be to to actually settle on which of them we are going to do And when we come back we can charge in and do it Anything else that I a a Actually started out this this field trip started off with with Stephane talking to Hynek so you may have you may have had other goals for going up and any anything else you can think of would be we should think about pause accomplishing ? I mean I m just saying this because pause maybe there s things we need to do in preparation PhD G: Oh I think basically this is this is Professor F: OK OK Alright And and the other the the last topic I had here was d Dave s fine offer to to do something pause on this I mean he s doing he s working on other things but to to do something on this project So the question is `` Where where could we most use Dave s help ? `` PhD G: I was thinking perhaps if additionally to all these experiments which is not really research well I mean it s running programs and trying to have a closer look at the perhaps the speech noise detection or voiced sound unvoiced sound detection and Which could be important in i for noise noise PhD A: I think that would be a I think that s a big big deal Because the you know the thing that Sunil was talking about with the labels labeling the database when it got to the noisy stuff ? The That that really throws things off You know having the noise all of a sudden your your speech detector I mean the the What was it ? What was happening with his thing ? He was running through these models very quickly He was getting lots of insertions is what it was in his recognitions Professor F: The only problem I mean maybe that s the right thing the only problem I have with it is exactly the same reason why you thought it would be a good thing to do I I think that Let s fall back to that But I think the first responsibility is sort of to figure out if there s something pause that an an additional that s a good thing you remove the mike Go ahead good What an additional clever person could help with when we are really in a crunch for time Right ? Cuz Dave s going to be around for a long time right ? He s he s going to be here for years And so over years if he s if he s interested in you know voiced unvoiced silence he could do a lot But if there if in fact there s something else pause that he could be doing that would help us when we are we are sort of strapped for time We have we we ve you know only pause another another month or two pause to you know with the holidays in the middle of it to to get a lot done If we can think of something some piece of this that s going to be The very fact that it is sort of just work and i and it s running programs and so forth is exactly why pause it s possible that it some piece of could be handed to someone to do because it s not so that that s the question And we do not have to solve it right this s second but if we could think of some some piece that s that s well defined that he could help with he s expressing a will willingness to do that PhD A: What about training up a a multilingual net ? PhD E: Yes maybe to mmm put together the the label the labels between TIMIT and Spanish or something like that PhD G: and joining the data and Mmm Professor F: that s something that needs to be done in any event So what we were just saying is that that I was arguing for pause if possible coming up with something that that really was development and was not research because we we are we have a time crunch And so if there s something that would would save some time that someone else could do on some other piece then we should think of that first See the thing with voiced unvoiced silence is I really think that that it s to do to do a a a a poor job is is pretty quick or you know a so so job You can you can you can throw in a couple fea we know what what kinds of features help with it You can throw something in You can do pretty well But I remember in fact when you were working on that and you worked on for few months as I recall and you got to say ninety three percent and getting to ninety four pause really really hard So And th th the other tricky thing is since we are even though we are not we do not have a strict prohibition on memory size and and computational complexity clearly there s some limitation to it So if we have to if we say we have to have a pitch detector say if we if we are trying to incorporate pitch information or at least some kind of harmonic harmonicity or something this is another whole thing take a while to develop Anyway it s a very very interesting topic I mean one I think one of the a lot of people would say and I think Dan would also that one of the things wrong with current speech recognition is that we we really do throw away all the harmonicity information we try to get spectral envelopes Reason for doing that is that most of the information about the phonetic identity is in the spectral envelopes are not in the harmonic detail But the harmonic detail does tell you something Like the fact that there is harmonic detail is is real important So So So I think So wh that so the the other suggestion that just came up was well what about having him pause work on the pause multilingual super f superset pause kind of thing coming up with that and then you know training it training a net on that say from from from TIMIT or something Is that or for multiple databases What what would you what would you think it would wh what would this task consist of ? PhD G: it would consist in well creating the the superset and modifying the lab labels for matching the superset Professor F: creating a superset from looking at the multiple languages PhD G: Well creating the mappings actually Professor F: and then creating i m changing labels on TIMIT ? Or on or on multiple language multiple languages ? PhD E: Maybe for the other language because TIMIT have more phone PhD A: So you would have to create a mapping from each language to the superset PhD G: From each language to the superset Grad C: There s Carmen was talking about this SAMPA thing and it s it s an effort by linguists to come up with a machine readable IPA sort of thing right ? And they they have a web site that Stephane was showing us that has has all the English phonemes and their SAMPA correspondent phoneme and then they have Spanish they have German they have all all sorts of languages mapping mapping to the SAMPA phonemes which PhD E: the tr the transcription though for Albayzin is n the transcription are of SAMPA the same how you say symbol that SAMPA appear PhD B: SAMPA ? What does `` SAMPA `` mean ? PhD E: But I do not know if TIMIT o how is TIMIT PhD B: I was going to say does that mean IPA is not really international ? Grad C: No it s it s saying PhD A: It uses special diacritics and stuff which you can not do with ASCII characters Grad C: y can not print on ASCII PhD A: So the SAMPA s just mapping those PhD B: Oh I see Got it Professor F: What Has OGI done anything about this issue ? Do they have Do they have any kind of superset that they already have ? PhD G: I do not think so Well they they they are going actually the the other way defining phoneme clusters apparently Well Professor F: Aha That s right and that s an interesting pause way to go too PhD A: So they just throw the speech from all different languages together then cluster it into sixty or fifty or whatever clusters ? PhD G: I think they ve not done it doing multiple language yet but what they did is to training English nets with all the phonemes and then training it in English nets with kind of seventeen I think it was seventeen broad classes PhD A: Automatically derived Mm Automatically derived broad classes or ? PhD G: and And the result was that apparently when testing on cross language it was better I think so But Hynek did not add did not have all the results when he showed me that so well Professor F: So that does make an interesting question though Is there s some way that we should tie into that with this Right ? I mean if if in fact that is a better thing to do pause should we leverage that rather than doing pause our own Right ? So if i if if they s I mean we have pause i we have the the trainings with our own categories And now we are saying `` Well how do we handle cross language ? `` And one way is to come up with a superset but they are als they are trying coming up with clustered and do we think there s something wrong with that ? PhD G: I think that there s something wrong or Well because Well for the moment we are testing on digits and e i perhaps you using broad phoneme classes it s it s OK for classifying the digits but as soon as you will have more words well words can differ with only a single phoneme and which could be the same class Professor F: Right Although you are not using this for the You are using this for the feature generation though not the PhD G: but you will ask the net to put one for th th the phoneme class PhD A: So you are saying that there may not be enough information coming out of the net to help you discriminate the words ? PhD B: Fact most confusions are within the phone phone classes right ? I think Larry was saying like obstruents are only confused with other obstruents et cetera et cetera PhD G: this is another p another point Grad C: So so maybe we could look at articulatory type stuff Professor F: But that s what I thought they were going to Did they not do that or ? PhD G: I do not think so Well they were talking about perhaps but they d Professor F: They are talking about it but that s sort of a question whether they did because that s that s the other route to go Instead of this you know Instead of the the the the superclass thing which is to take So suppose y you do not really mark arti To really mark articulatory features you really want to look at the acoustics and and see where everything is and we are not going to do that So the second class way of doing it is pause to look at the phones that are labeled and translate them into acoustic articulatory features So it will not really be right You will not really have these overlapping pause things and so forth PhD A: So the targets of the net are these ? But that implies that you can have more than one on at a time ? Professor F: You either do that or you have multiple nets And I do not know if our software this if the qu versions of the Quicknet that we are using allows for that Do you know ? Multiple targets being one ? Grad C: Oh we have gotten soft targets to to work Professor F: OK So that that will work OK So that s another thing that could be done is that we could we could just translate instead of translating to a superset pause just translate to articulatory features some set of articulatory features and train with that Now the fact even though it s a smaller number pause it s still fine because you have the the combinations So in fact it has every you know it had has has every distinction in it that you would have the other way But it should go across languages better PhD A: We could do an interesting cheating experiment with that too We could I do not know if you had the phone labels you could replace them by their articulatory features and then feed in a vector with those things turned on based on what they are supposed to be for each phone to see if it if you get a big win Do you know what I m saying ? So I mean if your net is going to be outputting a vector of basically of well it s going to have probabilities but let s say that they were ones and zeros then y and you know for each I do not know if you know this for your testing data but if you know for your test data you know what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned then you can just instead of going through the net just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps Eh eh what made me think about this is I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature And because they had done some cheating experiments Professor F: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus So this was Larry Saul who did this did this Was what he was doing PhD A: right And they they had done a cheating experiment or something right ? Professor F: He he di he did not mention that part PhD A: Well Hynek said that that I guess before they had him work on this they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right it dramatically improved the result So I was thinking you know it made me think about this that if it would be an interesting experiment just to see you know if you did get all of those right Professor F: Should be Because if you get all of them in there that defines all of the phones So that s that s equivalent to saying that you ve got got all the phones right So if that does not help there s Although it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way where we are converting it into features PhD A: And then you also do not know what error they ve got on the HTK side You know ? It sort of gives you your the best you could hope for kind of PhD B: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one though right ? Grad C: To sum up to one PhD B: So you can not really feed it like two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it will kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that for instance PhD G: But perhaps you have the choice of the pause final nonl Grad C: it s sig No it s actually sigmoid X PhD G: So if you choose sigmoid it s o it s OK ? Professor F: Did we just run out of disk Grad C: I think I think apparently the PhD B: Why do not you just choose linear ? Right ? Is not that what you will want ? If you are going to do a KL Transform on it Grad C: Right right Right but during the training we would train on sigmoid X and then at the end just chop off the final nonlinearity Professor F: So we are we are we are off the air or ? About to be off the air","The Spanish data was not in the desired HTK format and needed to be processed, which was turning into somewhat of a challenge. The team also realized that moving data was making their processes slower and they needed to rely on faster machines to complete their tasks. The team discussed various linguistic features and computational methods for linguistic analysis that they could incorporate." "Professor F: So you you do not w especially in something with repetitive computation where you are going over it multiple times you do do not want to have the the data that you are working on distant from where it s being where the computation s being done if you can help it Now we are getting more disk for the central file server which since it s not a computational server would seem to be a contradiction to what I just said But the idea is that suppose you are working with this big bunch of multi multilingual databases you put them all in the central ser at the cen central file server Then when you are working with something and accessing it many times you copy the piece of it that you are working with over to some place that s close to where the computation is and then do all the work there And then that way you you will not have the the network you will not be clogging the network for yourself and others That s the idea So it s going to take us It may be too late for this p precise crunch we are in now but we are It s going to take us a couple weeks at least to get the the amount of disk we are going to be getting We are actually going to get I think four more thirty six gigabyte drives and put them on another another disk rack We ran out of space on the disk rack that we had so we are getting another disk rack and four more drives to share between primarily between this project and the Meetings Meetings Project But we ve put another I guess there s another eighteen gigabytes that s that s in there now to help us with the immediate crunch But are you saying So I do not know where pause you are Stephane where you are doing your computations If i so you are on an NT machine so you are using some external machine PhD G: it Well to It s Nutmeg and Mustard I think Professor F: Do you know these yet ? PhD G: I do not know what kind Professor F: OK are these are these computational servers or something ? I m I ve been kind of out of it PhD G: I think I think so Professor F: Unfortunately these days my idea of running comput of computa doing computation is running a spread sheet have not been have not been doing much computing personally so so those are computational servers So I guess the other question is what disk there i space there is there on the computational servers PhD A: Right I m not sure what s available on is it you said Nutmeg and what was the other one ? Professor F: Well you are the you are the disk czar now","The professor expressed that copying the information between drives clogged the network and slowed down their task. Though, the team was getting four more 36 GB drives. The professor also wanted to get more information on space available on computational servers." "PhD A: So I mean if your net is going to be outputting a vector of basically of well it s going to have probabilities but let s say that they were ones and zeros then y and you know for each I do not know if you know this for your testing data but if you know for your test data you know what the string of phones is and and you have them aligned then you can just instead of going through the net just create the vector for each phone and feed that in to see if that data helps Eh eh what made me think about this is I was talking with Hynek and he said that there was a guy at A T andT who spent eighteen months working on a single feature And because they had done some cheating experiments Professor F: This was the guy that we were just talking a that we saw on campus So this was Larry Saul who did this did this Was what he was doing PhD A: right And they they had done a cheating experiment or something right ? Professor F: He he di he did not mention that part PhD A: Well Hynek said that that I guess before they had him work on this they had done some experiment where if they could get that one feature right it dramatically improved the result So I was thinking you know it made me think about this that if it would be an interesting experiment just to see you know if you did get all of those right Professor F: Should be Because if you get all of them in there that defines all of the phones So that s that s equivalent to saying that you ve got got all the phones right So if that does not help there s Although it would be make an interesting cheating experiment because we are using it in this funny way where we are converting it into features PhD A: And then you also do not know what error they ve got on the HTK side You know ? It sort of gives you your the best you could hope for kind of PhD B: The soft training of the nets still requires the vector to sum to one though right ? Grad C: To sum up to one PhD B: So you can not really feed it like two articulatory features that are on at the same time with ones cuz it will kind of normalize them down to one half or something like that for instance PhD G: But perhaps you have the choice of the pause final nonl Grad C: it s sig No it s actually sigmoid X PhD G: So if you choose sigmoid it s o it s OK ? Professor F: Did we just run out of disk Grad C: I think I think apparently the PhD B: Why do not you just choose linear ? Right ? Is not that what you will want ? If you are going to do a KL Transform on it Grad C: Right right Right but during the training we would train on sigmoid X","The team thought that doing a cheating experiment, where they try to identify the most important features, would be useful. Even if the results were not as great as they expected them to be, it could still be a valuable addition to their work. They thought that they could normalize the features using a sigmoid and try this for their work." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Darren So item 2 then today is our first session on the provision of textbooks and learning resources for pupils which is a video of interviews with young people and teachers The committee team has been out to take video evidence around Wales and we are now going to watch the results of that on the screen Well I am sure that the committee would want me to place on record our thanks to the young people and the teachers who took part in that very helpful and informative video We will move on now then to our evidence session and I am very pleased to welcome Gareth Pierce chief executive of the WJEC Mike Ebbsworth assistant director educational support WJEC Philip Blaker chief executive of Qualifications Wales and Emyr George associate director general qualifications at Qualifications Wales So thank you all of you for attending and thank you for the papers that you provided in advance as well If you are happy we will go straight into questions now and if I can just start by asking you to outline what you see as your role in ensuring that students and teachers in Wales have the resources that they need to pass general qualifications and what you think the role of commercial publishers and Welsh Government is Philip Blaker: Shall I start ? So Qualifications Wales is the regulator of the awarding bodies so we regulate awarding bodies Our powers are structured around the regulating of awarding bodies We do not regulate commercial publishers nor the provision of textbooks within that In regulating the awarding body our primary focus is also on the design of the qualifications and then the delivery of the assessment So it is much more around the assessment side than teaching resources That said when we are going through the design of the qualifications we go through an approval process so we develop approval criteria and we ask WJEC to submit their specifications against those approval criteria and sample assessment materials as well So our focus is very much on making sure that teachers are able through the sample assessment materials and the specifications to have a good understanding of what is going to be expected of them in the examinations and of their pupils in the examinations So that is setting out the knowledge skills and understandings that will be assessed by WJEC when those exams are sat We have in the past pulled together groups of people to look at issues like resources So during the last round of approvals we pulled together interested parties in Welsh Government regional consortia and WJEC to look at resources that would be available with a view to facilitating the discussion about who would be best placed to fill the gaps where there may be perceived to be gaps in resources Our other primary role is in maintaining standards So as the regulator of qualifications what we want to do is we want to make that the awards of qualifications—so the grades that people get—are fair One of the things we do is set out the way in which the awarding bodies will set grades—so the awarding process the methods that will be used—and then we monitor WJECs award of grades against those processes During a period of change we prescribe the use of comparable outcomes as the primary approach largely because comparable outcomes are designed for circumstances like this where there is a change in a specification particularly because there are any number of reasons including resources why performance may be different from one year to the next but comparable outcomes is there to ensure that all things being equal if the cohorts have the same ability the same grade should be awarded from one year to the next We do recognise that there have been delays in textbooks Much of that has been related to the timelines that we have all had to deliver new specifications against which have been far from ideal for everybody involved We think that particularly our role moving forward will be looking at the timelines for reforms that will be necessary for the new curriculum to make sure that this situation is not repeated and that there is sufficient time in future reforms to allow for greater system readiness In terms of the roles of others Welsh Government have a role at the moment in terms of grant funding of translation of materials into Welsh medium And there is through the common model at the moment—and this is a model that is common between England and Wales—a reliance on commercial publishers to provide textbooks Now that is something that probably needs to be looked at in the future in terms of potential different models for how that might be achieved and also potentially around a paradigm shift in what is expected of those materials So I think that sets out Qualification Waless position in particular Gareth Pierce: Thank you very much The WJEC does provide what is required in a regulatory sense and there are two things there—the specification which tends to be very comprehensive in providing guidance in terms of drawing up a programme of teaching and also exemplar assessments which include marking and those go to the regulator before they are published So those samples go to the regulator The WJEC also do invest a great deal in resources that we produce digitally in both languages simultaneously Each new course has substantial teaching guidance which includes a great deal of useful information for teachers and pupils And we run a professional development programme for teachers that is free of charge when courses are new and then annually there is some charge for those events They are facetoface events or increasingly they are webinars The WJEC also encourages publishers to take an interest in providing textbooks We do not have a commercial agreement with publishers Indeed the regulations as they stand in Wales Northern Ireland and England preclude examination bodies from having commercial links with providers of textbooks but that is something that emerges from the threenation regime that existed in terms of qualifications So that is one point that we noted as something that needs to be considered for Wales as we move forward whether it would be possible— As we are not talking about examination boards competing with each other in Wales for GCSE and Alevels in passing that is something that I would want to suggest may deserve review We encourage publishers to take an interest At the moment these tend to be Englandbased—Hodder Education and Illuminate Education for example—and then the Welsh Government does provide funding to the WJEC to support the process of providing Welshlanguage versions for those textbooks So we use that funding to provide editorial support to the process and also to pay for translation costs and we give significant guidance in terms of terminology We have a language services team including excellent editors and translators within the WJEC and we work closely with external translators too and we use translation technology increasingly which facilitates a great many things Beyond that I think the WJEC does see the need for flexibility particularly when difficulties arise and you heard there of some of the methods used by Mike and others to get digital resources available earlier than the print versions And I should also note perhaps that as the WJEC is very much involved with stakeholders we feel that we do have a contribution to make in terms of ideas for the future","Qualification Wales was the regulator of the awarding bodies, mainly focusing on the design of the qualifications and the delivery of the assessment. They were also responsible for maintaining standards, making sure that the grades people got were fair through comparable outcomes." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We heard in the video that teachers are spending a lot of their time actually translating materials What is your view on that as a good use of teachers time in Wales ? Gareth Pierce: I think the question of translation is an interesting one There was talk about pupils translating and teachers translating I think perhaps we need to understand what causes the need for that because as I mentioned earlier there are so many resources available digitally in both languages at the same time Perhaps an interesting question is : is that source useful for teachers being able to draw resources from two sources ? Another interesting question I think is— The Welsh language of course is a language that is used in an educational context but we are in a big world that is an English language world I am very aware that many of the websites we refer to in our resources and many of the case studies as was mentioned in that video—they are available in English only Therefore I think another interesting question is : can we discover what those additional resources are that are worth translating ? And certainly it would be very unfortunate if there were a dozen Welshmedium schools for example translating material from the same website independently of each other If there are a few websites or a few case studies in this big external digital world that are worth translating should not we able to source those early ? Because I do not think it is a good use of teachers time But I also think that the use of both languages is an interesting one What is the vision in terms of teaching in a Welshmedium class in particular perhaps in the Alevel classes ? I am sure that some teachers feel that there is a way of enriching the teaching by referring to terms in both languages as well as explaining those terms in their own language But the impression I got from the video was that there was quite a lot of mechanical translating happening and perhaps there is a need to understand more of the context Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just to pick up on your point on the additional materials whose role would it be to asses this or to take that overview and then to respond to the demand ? Gareth Pierce: Mike in the WJEC has conversations about resources in the team he is part of Mike Ebbsworth: Yes That is extremely important—to identify as Gareth has just said those materials that need to be translated and not everything needs to We have made a lot of use recently of speaking with teachers and the consortia and ensuring then that we are focusing on those things that need that attention","Gareth Pierce was aware that many websites they referred to in their resources and many case studies were purely in English, while it was the Welsh language that was used in the educational context. Gareth Pierce believed it was very unfortunate for different schools to translate materials independently from each other, concluding that it would be necessary to translate materials in both languages to enable teachers to refer to terms in both languages." "Darren Millar AM: This is a huge mess is not it ? It is a huge mess which is causing lots of pressure and extra work for teachers lots of pressure and extra work for learners and is affecting the wellbeing of students at a time when they need to be mentally fit in order to go through the general stress that learners face when they have exams coming up We know that the problems are not confined to Welshmedium resources they are also being experienced in English language resources as well particularly in terms of the availability of textbooks You have both mentioned—both of your organisations have mentioned that there needs to be some sort of common core of resources available for learners and teachers and I would agree with you on that front But is not a textbook a pretty basic element of anybodys toolkit for supporting a child getting through the information that they need to learn and swot up on in advance of exams ? Gareth Pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently And I agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them perhaps the teacher uses them There is an emphasis for example from one pupil there on that traditional model of revision namely class notes and his own revision notes but that he personally also wanted a textbook So certainly the content of a textbook is going to be important and that that is available in some form or other It was very interesting to know for example that when he was describing the traditional model of revision he felt that he would had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes Much of that digital content of course corresponds to the content areas of a textbook but it is just in a different form But in general there should be a textbook And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do not always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time That does not happen so often in English medium but we know about that in time in the Welsh provision Darren Millar AM: Well it is happened fairly regularly in the Englishmedium textbook world has not it ? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up and she only had a textbook over the Easter period I mean it is completely unacceptable And many others in that video are also being affected You mentioned digital resources not everybodys got access to digital resources in their own homes even in Wales So are not we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional swotting up from a textbook method of revision and benefit from that ? Mike Ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time But certainly there are materials there If there are activities then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home So I would be sceptical about that comment We are thinking of the totality ultimately Gareth Pierce: I think you are right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture The young people talk about websites and blogs and we are talking about digital resources so being able to reach those resources I think is vital in Wales It is interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters One praises what is available digitally whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers As Mike said we have created those resources that can be adapted One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that is very valuable Of course the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later but available digitally at an early stage But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital and access to that and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well Darren Millar AM: Mr Blaker you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification Philip Blaker: I think we would not want to underplay the desirability of textbooks recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources I think what I would like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model which is very much around the fact that every time there is a change in a specification there is a new textbook which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body which is a nice model for a publisher because every time there is a change there is an opportunity for a new textbook There are two concerns that I would like to raise on that First the focus on teaching and learning Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency And also there is the sustainability of the model We know that we are about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change That is going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications I think I would much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than perhaps the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest Darren Millar AM: So you do not think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations Emyr George: I would just like to pick you up on that I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you would want to see available for people to choose what they prefer but on a subject perhaps rather than a specific specification because I think there is a tendency to conflate the two and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification or a new updated specification will remain unchanged It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis or a different style of questioning but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources for example which can highlight that change particularly to a teacher so that they can shape their lesson planning around that What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed Alevels in subjects that are wellestablished traditional subjects and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal I think it is important to remember that there is already a good deal of preexisting resources including textbooks out there in schools already We are not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did not contain any extraneous material but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students Darren Millar AM: But of course unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they are appropriate for use in the classroom given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? Mr Blaker I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments and I think that that is a very positive thing But how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they are somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbooktype learning traditional sort of swotting up for examinations versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? How do you make sure that it is fair to the cohort as a whole while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? Philip Blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort It is very difficult—in fact it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance because you could well have a textbook that is been available for some time it may be somebody is preferred leaning style to use a textbook but did they use that textbook effectively ? You know did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? So there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance I think it is impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources Motivation would be one thing an individual learners motivation in the subject The biggest input would be the quality of teaching I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia which we saw yesterday They particularly wanted to stress this point I think that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learners ultimate performance in the examination Darren Millar AM: I understand that but you also understand that someone who does not have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom perhaps textbooks are less important Gareth Pierce: I think also perhaps related to that it is important to mention digital literacy here Every young person in Wales I would hope taking GCSE or Alevel should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills Then they have the choice whether they go down the digital route or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks in the hope that those would be available ? That would then allow for a pupils personal learning choice to be reflected It is also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way So the flexibility for the pupil is very important I think Darren Millar AM: I understand that but I have got people in my constituency who have not even got a broadband link at home so there is a digital disadvantage as well Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications We are three years on what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? If you have got these resources digitally why can not they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? Gareth Pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened There were some in 2015 other subjects in 2016 and other subjects in 2017 Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources There are more past papers available of course We are working on sample work at the request of teachers So every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied But those same difficulties have unfortunately affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects and that is why we are discussing the same thing in 2018 Darren Millar AM: So it is the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ?","Darren Millar thought replacing textbooks would cause a lot of pressure and extra work for teachers and students, believing that the textbook was a basic element for children to learn and revise and an essential core piece for qualification. Also the digital resources were not accessible for everyone even in Wales. Darren Millar AN was also worried some learners would face disadvantages as a result of textbooks, who might not adapt digital contents well." "Gareth Pierce: I think that the evidence is that different learners see their requirements differently And I agree that a textbook is part of the picture that should be available But I think the evidence also shows that not every young person will use them perhaps the teacher uses them There is an emphasis for example from one pupil there on that traditional model of revision namely class notes and his own revision notes but that he personally also wanted a textbook So certainly the content of a textbook is going to be important and that that is available in some form or other It was very interesting to know for example that when he was describing the traditional model of revision he felt that he would had quite a lot of the content of the textbook through the classroom notes Much of that digital content of course corresponds to the content areas of a textbook but it is just in a different form But in general there should be a textbook And some of our frustration as well is that the timetables of some individual publishers do not always get us to the point where there is a textbook available in time That does not happen so often in English medium but we know about that in time in the Welsh provision Darren Millar AM: Well it is happened fairly regularly in the Englishmedium textbook world has not it ? My daughter—she featured in that video—has got her RS qualifications coming up and she only had a textbook over the Easter period I mean it is completely unacceptable And many others in that video are also being affected You mentioned digital resources not everybodys got access to digital resources in their own homes even in Wales So are not we giving a significant disadvantage to those learners who might need the traditional swotting up from a textbook method of revision and benefit from that ? Mike Ebbsworth: We do ensure that those digital resources include things that the teachers can also print Most of these are resources for teachers so that the teachers can adapt them for their own use to suit the learners who are in front of them at any given time But certainly there are materials there If there are activities then those activities can be printed off and handed to pupils so that they can take them home So I would be sceptical about that comment We are thinking of the totality ultimately Gareth Pierce: I think you are right that the availability of technology is an important part of this big picture The young people talk about websites and blogs and we are talking about digital resources so being able to reach those resources I think is vital in Wales It is interesting to note two contradictory remarks from the teaching associations in the letters One praises what is available digitally whereas another teaching organisation sees this as more work for teachers As Mike said we have created those resources that can be adapted One teaching organisation says that it just creates more work while another organisation says that the digital resource is something that is very valuable Of course the headteacher at the end was praising the fact that in a situation of crisis or unacceptable timetables we have succeeded in creating some resources that will be in the textbook later but available digitally at an early stage But I agree with your core comment that technology is vital and access to that and also the content of a textbook in some form is vital as well Darren Millar AM: Mr Blaker you would agree that a textbook should be an essential core piece of the resource pack available for each qualification Philip Blaker: I think we would not want to underplay the desirability of textbooks recognising that different learners have different learning styles and may look to different resources I think what I would like to raise is a wider concern about textbooks in their current model which is very much around the fact that every time there is a change in a specification there is a new textbook which is designed around that specification and is endorsed by an awarding body which is a nice model for a publisher because every time there is a change there is an opportunity for a new textbook There are two concerns that I would like to raise on that First the focus on teaching and learning Ofsted and also Estyn have raised concerns about the focus in teaching on teaching to the test as a common concern in both nations I have a concern that having a textbook that is endorsed by the awarding body and is designed specifically around that specification may lead to some of that tendency And also there is the sustainability of the model We know that we are about to go into another round of reforms associated with the curriculum change That is going to lead to another round of textbooks that may need to be focused on qualifications I think I would much rather see that textbooks are seen as a curriculum resource that are broader than perhaps the model of endorsement and the current model of publication suggest Darren Millar AM: So you do not think that a textbook for each subject should be a core resource for pupils who are learning in advance of examinations Emyr George: I would just like to pick you up on that I think a textbook for each subject is absolutely an essential part of the broad range of resources that you would want to see available for people to choose what they prefer but on a subject perhaps rather than a specific specification because I think there is a tendency to conflate the two and much of the underlying content that is assessed in one specification or a new updated specification will remain unchanged It is true that there may be a different focus or emphasis or a different style of questioning but that can be picked up more nimbly through supplementary digital resources for example which can highlight that change particularly to a teacher so that they can shape their lesson planning around that What we are looking at here are reformed GCSEs and reformed Alevels in subjects that are wellestablished traditional subjects and so whilst it is not necessarily the ideal I think it is important to remember that there is already a good deal of preexisting resources including textbooks out there in schools already We are not for a moment saying that that is the situation that we would want everybody to be in I think it might be preferable if the textbook was perfectly bespoke to the course and did not contain any extraneous material but that perhaps is an ideal picture and I think we do need to remember that there are already many resources out there that are available to teachers and to students Darren Millar AM: But of course unlike their peers in perhaps other parts of the UK we have teachers who are having to go meticulously through some of these other resources that might be available to determine whether they are appropriate for use in the classroom given that the specification is different in terms of the new qualifications Can I just ask you about the disadvantage that some learners might face as a result of the lack of textbooks ? Mr Blaker I note that you sought to reassure the committee in some of your opening remarks about the fact that equivalent outcomes are what you aim to achieve in discussion with the WJEC in terms of the outcome of assessments and I think that that is a very positive thing But how do you differentiate between the different learning styles of individual students who are in that cohort to ensure that the disadvantage that one faces because they are somebody who relies particularly heavily on textbooktype learning traditional sort of swotting up for examinations versus someone who is much more digitally aware and able to use digital resources— ? How do you make sure that it is fair to the cohort as a whole while still enabling some of these individuals for whom textbooks are important not to face disadvantage within that cohort ? Philip Blaker: The systems that are in place are very much around making sure that awarding is fair across the whole cohort It is very difficult—in fact it would be impossible—to unpick all of the different factors that might affect performance because you could well have a textbook that is been available for some time it may be somebody is preferred leaning style to use a textbook but did they use that textbook effectively ? You know did they open it in revision or did they not open it in revision ? So there are so many different factors that can affect individual performance I think it is impossible to unpick a particular aspect like the availability of resources Motivation would be one thing an individual learners motivation in the subject The biggest input would be the quality of teaching I think evidence has been provided to you by the regional consortia which we saw yesterday They particularly wanted to stress this point I think that the quality of teaching is probably the most dominant and the most important factor in relation to a learners ultimate performance in the examination Darren Millar AM: I understand that but you also understand that someone who does not have the resources that they feel are best suited to them face some element of a greater disadvantage than others for whom perhaps textbooks are less important Gareth Pierce: I think also perhaps related to that it is important to mention digital literacy here Every young person in Wales I would hope taking GCSE or Alevel should have that digital literacy in order to source the valuable materials available—that they should have those skills Then they have the choice whether they go down the digital route or do they do as Mike suggested—much of the digital material can be printed—or do they then turn to textbooks in the hope that those would be available ? That would then allow for a pupils personal learning choice to be reflected It is also important for teachers to confirm that their ways of teaching do support these alternative approaches taken by pupils Not every pupil will choose to learn or revise in exactly the same way So the flexibility for the pupil is very important I think Darren Millar AM: I understand that but I have got people in my constituency who have not even got a broadband link at home so there is a digital disadvantage as well Can I just ask you about the reason why this has taking so long to sort out ? It was back in 2015 that concerns were first raised about the availability of textbooks in both English and Welsh for the new qualifications We are three years on what on earth has been happening in the interim and why is it taking so long ? If you have got these resources digitally why can not they just be compounded into textbooks pretty straightforwardly ? Gareth Pierce: I think the main reason for that is that there are three series of reforms of qualifications that have happened There were some in 2015 other subjects in 2016 and other subjects in 2017 Those three cycles of reform have all suffered from the short timetable that was between approving a qualification and publishers being able to start the work Perhaps an interesting comparison would be a subject being taught for the first time in 2015—where that subject has reached now in terms of resources I would hope that each one of those subjects have more available now in terms of resources and therefore we are adding each year—not textbooks but digital resources There are more past papers available of course We are working on sample work at the request of teachers So every subject is moving on over a period of time of five to six years while that specification is being studied But those same difficulties have unfortunately affected 2015 subjects and 2017 subjects and that is why we are discussing the same thing in 2018 Darren Millar AM: So it is the scale of the challenge and the volume of the work ?","About the accessibility of digital resources, Mike Ebbsworth held that the teachers could print the materials to suit the learners at any given time, while Gareth Pierce believed that the technology, as well as the content of a textbook in some form, was vital. They both agreed that the digitalization process would add flexibility to the teaching materials. About the pupils' adaptation of digital contents, the WJEC thought digital literacy was a basic skill for examinations as A-level or GSCE. Also it was hard to evaluate whether it was the lack of textbooks that affected pupils' performance, as there were so many factors." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy if it were to develop bilingually ? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy ? Gareth Pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary But we could rethink the model for the subsidy perhaps At the moment the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the Welshmedium version Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum ? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing because we are a charity and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales","Gareth Pierce believed that the subsidy would be necessary, and thought of the subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the curriculum." Mike Ebbsworth: We have done a great deal of work recently over recent years to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced We are highly aware of the fact that the bestcase scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously In those terms we have taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we have named this morning so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced There is a risk there of course The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind or edit as he or she is writing Well with that model we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward chapter by chapter perhaps so that there would be no changes to be made from then on At the end of the process then the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available and then to publish both simultaneously Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process there are inherent risks in that process of course as I have mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to,The publishers in England agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version was available and then to publish simultaneously. "Darren Millar AM: I just want to ask about this eightweek delay So you are telling us Mr Ebbsworth that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that in future even if an English textbook is available for publication and it is already late you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welshmedium textbook ? Mike Ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed Naturally if something is late in English then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken But that is the hope : that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English we would look at that eightweek period as a turnaround Darren Millar AM: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapterbychapter approach which seems much more equitable But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you have not got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day seems to be wholly inappropriate Can I ask also why on earth it is not possible to produce Welshmedium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions ? Mike Ebbsworth: We are entirely open to that and to that sort of model Darren Millar AM: So why has that never ever been done ? Gareth Pierce: Well of course it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors therefore tend to work through the medium of English But just to be clear this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with but not with textbooks that are already late They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500000 So in a way this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available Darren Millar AM: So you are being forced to do this by the Welsh Government rather than— Gareth Pierce: Well we have agreed to do it in discussion with them Darren Millar AM: So are you happy with that approach ? Gareth Pierce: Well as long as the textbook is not late in the first place then yes it is worth trying There is a challenge on the eight weeks there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all but we are willing to use this as a test bed and we are working on two specific textbooks on this Lynne Neagle AM: I think the committee is struggling with this idea so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that then ? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged ? Gareth Pierce: Well no in a way it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources With the digital materials the intention is that things are available in time and that they are available in both languages at the same time So trying to imitate that with printed text is what we are trying to do but not with texts that are already late So if these books keep to the timetable then they will be available in time in both languages but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves Llyr Gruffydd AM: So that is to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation Mike Ebbsworth: Well ultimately I may have used the wrong words in saying that we are holding the English back The English version would still be in the process just as the Welsh version would be and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eightweek period So a draft form might be available and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible but then that has to be held up before publication John Griffiths AM: Just on that Chair it is nonetheless the case as we have heard I think and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear that there might be a situation where the Englishlanguage version of a textbook could be made available but it is not made available because there is not a Welshlanguage version And as the Chair said is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing and if so how does that relate to the fact that these students including those who could have had earlier access to the Englishlanguage version are competing with students over the border as we heard on the video earlier for those precious university places ? Does not it place the Englishlanguage student using the Englishlanguage version at a potential disadvantage compared to students over the border ?",Darren Millar AM thought it was inappropriate to delay the availability of a textbook that was already late on schedule so that the two language version could be published on the same day. John Griffiths worried that the approach would potentially put English students using the English-language version or Welsh students using the Welsh-language version at a disadvantage. "John Griffiths AM: Coming back again to matters that we have already discussed but just to put to you in a fairly focused way would you accept that it is not fair that some pupils are not having the support material that others are having depending on whether their particular subject is involved and the language that they are studying through ? Would you accept that that is a basic unfairness in the system as it currently exists ? Gareth Pierce: Ideally resources digital accessibility and digital literacy should be available for every pupil on an equal basis But I think perhaps if we analysed this in much detail different individuals would be able to say There are different types of unfairness You referred earlier to the digital inequalities Is there an economic inequality ? There is some evidence from the teaching unions that suggests that not every school is in the same situation as each other in terms of buying the resources that are available So I think your question drives at a very important point : what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in terms of their achievement during their school time ? Ideally each one of those elements of potential inequality should be levelled So I do not think I can go any further than acknowledging that any inequality is unfair but there are so many different kinds and the textbook is not the only one and therefore we are not going to be able to analyse the impact of that on its own",Gareth pierce believed that there were different types of unfairness in different individuals' opinions. It was hard to judge what sort of inequality could be having an impact on young people in therms of achievement. So Gareth Pierce didn't think he could go any further than acknowledging any inequality was unfair. "Lynne Neagle AM: Can I ask for brief answers please ? Gareth Pierce: Yes well some of the people who provide ideas into our digital resources certainly are either teachers who are very well aware of that progression to HE and therefore what their learners want or in some cases they are HE people themselves We do draw on a body of expertise and we are more than willing to emphasise the importance of that approach to the support resources we provide Hefin David AM: I think the difficulty and the difference is that at HE level the kind of journal articles that are available are probably not consumable at GCSE level That is part of the problem you have with that approach Gareth Pierce: Yes And I think interestingly—I know we have pointed towards some of our religious studies resources as examples—I think some of the websites we point to are quite ambitious They would be described as scholarly and I think some of the young people on the video made that point did not they—that they need to engage with that material to understand some themes ? But we need to assist them in doing so We need to almost make those scholarly items that are worth including in their curriculum accessible and user friendly for them at their point of learning",They drew on a body of expertise and emphasized the importance of the approach and skill. They would also assist young people with their engagement with the scholar items and understanding some themes. "Mark Reckless AM: Gareth can I just put to you— ? On the Estyn criticism I think you have answered one aspect of their criticism that WJEC did not make as many sample assessment materials available as schools would have liked early on in the reform process and I understand your position there but they went on and said At times the sample assessment materials were provided with incorrect mark schemes and also It would be helpful if the WJEC ensure that all necessary resources were made available before the start date of each qualification Do you have a response to those points ? Gareth Pierce: Again probably I would like a conversation with them about any problems with the specimen assessments and their mark schemes because if they are the statutory regulatory ones they would have gone through Philips team as well or his Welsh Government predecessors as regulators depending on which qualifications they were Obviously we need to be spoton with those Very occasionally somebody will identify an error and obviously we then correct them because these are available digitally online So if there is a problem we want to hear about it and then we can correct it But yes I agree with their fundamental premise that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts including as we mentioned earlier so we can draw on that set of resources in the events we run as WJEC free of charge for teachers leading up to the first teaching We need that information ourselves as well so we can talk about the use of these valuable resources in an appropriate pedagogical context in that preparatory year So the ideal is that everything is there 12 months ahead Mark Reckless AM: So what mechanism do you have for picking up on this type of criticisms from Estyn and having that conversation with them ? Has that not happened ? Gareth Pierce: We have met with Estyn a couple of times recently actually—once when they were beginning their review of the key stage 4 qualifications that had been in place for two years and a bit and also when they were planning a review of some of the Alevel work Because we do have regular meetings with them we will have an opportunity to explore their comments here I am sure",Gareth Pierce decided that they would have regular meetings with Estyn about any problems with the specimen assessments and the mark schemes. They agreed with Estyn that ideally the whole package of resources should be available before teaching starts and would work on that. "Darren Millar AM: Just on this issue of shaping the curriculum and making sure that we have got textbooks that can be used to support the delivery of the curriculum— So obviously the WJECs interested in the examinations and the qualifications That is your role as well in terms of Qualifications Wales So who should be responsible for developing these curriculum resources ? Philip Blaker: I think for a new model that needs to be determined Welsh Government has a role in curriculum at the moment They have responsibility for curriclum and they have already started work with the seminar last year and then drawing people together now to look at a new model for the future I think we need to evolve that approach and I think Welsh Government taking a lead on some of this thinking about how things might be prepared for the future is probably a good position to be in at the moment","Philip Blaker thought it needed to be determined. But he also believed that Welsh Government had a role in curriculum at that moment, so Welsh Government had responsibility for the curriculum and drew people together to look at the new model for the future." "Marketing: So to gather my research two basic methods We compared whether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool And then we we research fashion trends in Europe what is what is the new black you know as it goes Next slide please we found in order of importance people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool As in they want it to do a lot of good s they want it to look like it does a lot and if it does do a lot that is a bonus but they do not care so much you know They want it to be that is sounds a bit like a contradiction Technology technical technologically innovative People want it to be that but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does So like the interface is really important And easy to use it it just so happens that from the second point to the third point is twice as important I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point People want it I is it has to be cooler than easy to use you know if it has the newest features even if it is difficult to use prefer it to have the newest features And if it is easy to use that is a bonus The fashion now this is seems a bit odd to me but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture for clothes for shoes How that relates to a remote control I do not know But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide Spongy I have als I have been saying everythings the new black Well spongys the new black as well So we have the choice between rubber and plastic If it is the type of rubber that you can squeeze you know it is spongy then can I skip the rest ? Industrial Designer: Oh I forgot to mention that The rubber material is the type of stress ball material not just normal rubber Marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative obviously But what we what we need is something that looks like it is from the future that looks cool that is that is different you know that is everyone has a white remote control black remote control you need something cool Like titanium is cool but it is expensive And maybe it is a bit of overkill for a remote control now the fruit and veg options either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg so maybe it is important for it is the up to the interface guy So if we stay away from it s you know stay away from it but if we are going to go along with it then it does not necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that or a kiwi fruit It could be something like I say potato peeler but I am sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do So I think cool is the key Few questions about a spongy remote control I have never seen one before I have seen plastic remote controls I think maybe they were I do not know back in the day when they first came up with remote controls they had a reason for it being sturdy you know For being strong and sturdy So if we want something strong and sturdy I say stay with plastic or titanium but if we go with spongy we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want it does not matter it is spongy material it is not going to break you know I just do not know how the LED and the lights are going to fit into a spongy material because it is not going to be completely squeezable So how do things fit it ? And if we are going to use spongy we can say it is long lasting you know it is damage resistant and stuff like that so So just to summarise people want stuff that is cool that is that looks like it is cool and if it is cool then that is a bonus does not have to be people like fruit and veg We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it People like spongy material If we are going to use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is and how we can further promote that idea And also this was this year So things change all the time every year you know they they always talk about this year this is the new black Well next year something else is going to be the new black and we are stuck with last years fruit and veg type stuff Project Manager: Well I would say that the most you could probably hope for is gaining a years lead on most people anyway You always have to bring out new designs so if we can get next year then that is possibly a good place to start anyway",Marketing pointed out that customers generally expected the new remote control to be fancy and technologically innovative. The trendiest shape might be fruit and vegetable. Users hoped that the remote control could be spongy. Marketing suggested that the team could decide on a shape of fruit and rubber material. "Marketing: But I I see I come on to that in the next in the next slide Spongy I have als I have been saying everythings the new black Well spongys the new black as well So we have the choice between rubber and plastic If it is the type of rubber that you can squeeze you know it is spongy then can I skip the rest ? Industrial Designer: Oh I forgot to mention that The rubber material is the type of stress ball material not just normal rubber Marketing: So so my personal opinion ? we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative obviously But what we what we need is something that looks like it is from the future that looks cool that is that is different you know that is everyone has a white remote control black remote control you need something cool Like titanium is cool but it is expensive And maybe it is a bit of overkill for a remote control now the fruit and veg options either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg so maybe it is important for it is the up to the interface guy So if we stay away from it s you know stay away from it but if we are going to go along with it then it does not necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that or a kiwi fruit It could be something like I say potato peeler but I am sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do So I think cool is the key Few questions about a spongy remote control I have never seen one before I have seen plastic remote controls I think maybe they were I do not know back in the day when they first came up with remote controls they had a reason for it being sturdy you know For being strong and sturdy So if we want something strong and sturdy I say stay with plastic or titanium but if we go with spongy we can stress that you can drop this as many times as you want it does not matter it is spongy material it is not going to break you know I just do not know how the LED and the lights are going to fit into a spongy material because it is not going to be completely squeezable So how do things fit it ? And if we are going to use spongy we can say it is long lasting you know it is damage resistant and stuff like that so So just to summarise people want stuff that is cool that is that looks like it is cool and if it is cool then that is a bonus does not have to be people like fruit and veg We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it People like spongy material If we are going to use spongy material we have to think of how practical it is and how we can further promote that idea And also this was this year So things change all the time every year you know they they always talk about this year this is the new black Well next year something else is going to be the new black","During Industrial Designer's presentation, the team was asked to choose from rubber, plastic and titanium. Marketing showed a preference for rubber. The reasons were explained when user requirements of the new remote control were presented. Marketing pointed out that customers expected the remote control to be spongy. To bring a spongy feel, rubber was the best choice. Besides, rubber was damage-resistant, and its price was more reasonable than titanium." "Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf so I do not exactly what cost would be incurred I can see your point about the number keypad but I have I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the LCD and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be User Interface: actually if you have got a lot of channels the number keypad can be quite annoying as well becau it is you know if you are trying to remember what you know what numbers the discovery channel or whatever It is just irritating Marketing: That is a good point User Interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure then you can subgroup them Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu Even news music Like they do on sky digital kind of Project Manager: So what it looks like to me is we will use a large number of standard components say something like lithium ion battery the kind that you find in most small hand held devices now Looks like we going for a double curved design I do not know what cost implications there are in that looks like we are pretty much decided on some kind of flexible rubber Though I would have to say depending on how flexible it is we might need to have some kind of inner frame User Interface: I I would say definitely I mean I mean I mean the the idea of having it sort of articulated i th there would be basically two points of articulation W one below and one above the m the the main sort of grip So Project Manager: Do you think there is any way we could maybe remove the articulation ? I can see why it looks appealing but it could be a weak point in the structure do you think ? That would be a worry of mine Industrial Designer: If you are going with the fruit and veg thing looks like a banana User Interface: I d I do not thi I do not think that it would be a a structural weakness Industrial Designer: F if you want to design it that way User Interface: I mean if you have a firm s substructure you can then incorporate articulation into that If you then have a sort of outer skin of mm flexible spongy rubber then you have something that is you know very much you know organic and I think would look rather co I mean mi rather cool I mean my drawing there does not does not do it justice it makes it makes it look more a little bit more like a vibrator than a than a than a remote control Project Manager: we will not add that functionality However one interesting point is I do not know how serious you were there but we if we take some of the ideas why do not we make the damn thing yellow to incorporate the des the colour of the logo ? It is an certainly a different colour from your average User Interface: Make it harder to lose as well Project Manager: Was there anything in your research Marketing: The noise for when you lose the banana f for when you lose the remote control it could be like a a monkey noise or something like that rather than a standard beep beep Y you know you lose the monkey the banana y you lose the banana you press a button and you hear like monkey screams or something like that to direct you towards the banana User Interface: I th I mean if it I think that is something that could perhaps be programmable though maybe have monkey as default Marketing: S oh I was going to talk about the programmable remote control Now I think it would be cool if you had one remote control that could work with all TVs you know you s you click a button and it finds the frequency that works with your particular television But why you would need to program it like as as a standard feature I I do not know User Interface: Well basi basically the for f for I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the TV responds to It is not simply a matter of frequency So usually what is done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you will have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote and you will have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer and try the different codes that come under that manufacturers name til you find the right one Marketing: That is because televisions they do not give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it User Interface: So that is that is quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that But if we had some sort of hookup to your computer as an option then if you have got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person does not have the computer we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the LCD and then they maybe look up different names of different actual units that have been produced Or we have the remote control just go through them until it is like does this do the correct function and such Marketing: Is it is it actually a book of names to digits or is it like a few pages ? I was just thinking if we were to store this information some type of mapping This person probably need to use this feature like once you know when you first buy the remote control or whenever they buy a new television so Project Manager: Does not have to be used very often User Interface: But it is a but it is a nuisance And it is a nuisance very close to the to to actually purchasing it so it is something that you are likely to be thinking about If you if there is w i if there is one in the shop that is that says it can avoid much of that nuisance you might be favourably inclined towards it mm Project Manager: this just to give us a rough idea of what we are meant to be doing for the next stage I am pretty sure that you got that anyway This is the conceptual one I think we have come up I think we have covered everything we need to here I think we have decided on what you know decided on standard items for most of rubber and such so we are now looking at the detailed design and what we need to be doing for the next meeting So for example I will just start at the top you have got yourself and the Industrial Designer going to be working quite closely at this stage because it will be hard not to obviously looking from prototyping of some des description using clay I suppose you will be told a lot more about that as progress The user interface design They are kind of it looks they are the idea I have pushed forward so far is maybe more of a physical one there whereas possibly be more interested in maybe how the LCDs going to incorporate do you think ? Or do you s perceive that most the design design decisions still need to be based on the physical layout ? User Interface: well I I think other than ge getting a sort of more aesthetically pleasing form for it mo most of the sort of layout design decisions are are made I would say but then again the the menu structure to to a considerable extent that is going to vary according to the model of television and also any customisations that the user might wish to incorporate So and one of the nice things about having an LCD and a menu structure is that there is that flexibility to it Project Manager: Mmhmm that is very true got product evaluation as well Marketing: you see I do not some of these things kind of logically follow the others How can t product evaluation does not that come after actually seen a product prototype Project Manager: I I think we would be no it would be more a case of how do we envisage us performing the product evaluation once we have a model to test with Marketing: Oh that is the sure sure sure Project Manager: so it would be a case of do you think that just bringing users in to have them test it out maybe putting a certain number of products into the field in certain places which I suppose is quite similar Or just kind of hitting the streets and you know saying this is a new remote control what do you think of the look of it ? Marketing: sure At this stage we still have no no target audience or Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous the reason I am saying that is we are just looking at a a replacement remote control something that is stylish so maybe you are even just maybe you are narrowing down your target audience simply by saying if they are buying it that often or they are maybe looking to replace something then they have got a bit of free cash so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket Maybe even single just for the reasons of excess cash flow Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros I do not think we are looking at charging the earth for the device Think that is well within the normal bracket your idea of the USB would I think would largely depend on the cost USBs definitely one of the cheapest interfaces out there but it might push the cost of the overall unit up because it would require not just the connection but the chip for communicating with the rest of the system That one might have to be based on Industrial Designer: The USB for which ? Project Manager: The the idea was that maybe it could connect up for allowing a software interface on the PC for a larger programming due to the fact that we have gone for such a nice easy minimal design normally Marketing: We have w definitely talking some type of Industrial Designer: But did not they just say it is just for TV or are we going to Project Manager: It is just for TV but for programming it to use your TV you might hook it up to the PC I am not sure but I am thinking maybe that the additional cost of the USB might be prohibitive We do not know unless it would make sense to Marketing: But you are going to need some type of flash memory or something Well something that does not you would not have to redo the whole thing once the batteries are changed you know once you turn off the power User Interface: The other thing I mean it I mean it would need to ha it would need to have some sort of on board memory anyway f for one for one thing because I do think that the menu system should be I mean although you know it is not going to be terribly complicated if it is just controlling one device the menu system ought to be o ought to be customisable and Marketing: Different languages different skins and stuff like that User Interface: Mmhmm How how how you want say the the the menu structure for flicking through channels if you have got lots of channels That sort of thing Marketing: Sure I if it was customisable as in different languages and stuff that does open it is supposed to be international right ? So Project Manager: It would make sense to I would say to Marketing: It would make sense if you could Project Manager: and we would better be careful about the time as well We have already had the five minute warning so I would say International would make sense you are going to look at product evaluation I am I would better start writing up a hell of a lot of crap you are going to look a bit more at the kind of the physical make up you say looks like we are going to need a maybe a kind of prototype in clay we will see how that goes User Interface: Are we going to be supplied with the clay is what I want to know Where is the clay ? Project Manager: do I think we have got an idea of where we need to go for the next meeting would you say ? Industrial Designer: they are going with the fashion thing like the design spongy rubber Marketing: The fruit and veg This one User Interface: Mm I th I think I would largely want to actually steer clear of the whole sort of fruit and veg thing Project Manager: I would s that would be my my feeling User Interface: Bu but but the spongy idea I like I like it a lot Project Manager: We seem to have quite a general consensus that the idea of the the r rubber could be quite User Interface: I having it i having it sort of br bright yellow I think that is quite a good idea though maybe we could have options for colours as well and again this has the advantage of being harder to lose Marketing: Sure I mean we are trying to promote a remote control but we want to keep the company brand as well Project Manager: So we always need to remember that somewhere we are meant to be getting the slogan on Possibly I am think I am not sure but I am seeing a little bit of space around maybe the joystick area which could be used User Interface: Mm I was like like I said before I I think we should have the RR on the on the top function button Project Manager: And I think that says it all really See everybody in a half hour","The team made some decisions on the remote control design for the present stage. The keypad was given up, for a menu display could better classify channels into subgroups. Standard components such as the conventional battery were the final choices for the remote control. The team would adopt a double-curved design and rubber material. A corporate logo would be incorporated. There would be a special beeping sound for the location function. The new remote control could be programmed on the LCD screen as well as using software on the computer. In the next meeting, Industrial Designer and User Interface would present a prototype of the remote control. The team would also make a product evaluation." "Project Manager: Seems like a a lot of the components could be off the shelf so I do not exactly what cost would be incurred I can see your point about the number keypad but I have I would say that we can probably incorporate it into the menu system if you need to do traversal of a large number of channels My feeling would be that even if at a later date this was to be taking control of boxes as well having the use of the LCD and the joystick would probably allow you to manipulate enough channel numbers for you to be User Interface: actually if you have got a lot of channels the number keypad can be quite annoying as well becau it is you know if you are trying to remember what you know what numbers the discovery channel or whatever It is just irritating Marketing: That is a good point User Interface: But if you h but but but if you have a me but if you have a menu structure then you can subgroup them Marketing: You can incorporate names into the menu Even news music Like they do on sky digital kind of","User Interface pointed out that the keypad might irritate users, for it was hard for them to remember the exact number of every channel. Instead, User Interface recommended the LCD screen menu display. With the menu structure, channels could be better classified into subgroups. Users could name these subgroups as ""news"", ""music"" and so on." "Marketing: But why you would need to program it like as as a standard feature I I do not know User Interface: Well basi basically the for f for I mean e each manufacturer will have a partic will have a particular command set that the TV responds to It is not simply a matter of frequency So usually what is done is you have this big booklet full of different possi you will have all of them sort of programmed in to the remote and you will have this little booklet of codes you then find your ma find your manufacturer and try the different codes that come under that manufacturers name til you find the right one Marketing: That is because televisions they do not give the remote control any type of feedback when you send it User Interface: So that is that is quite annoying and we probably would still have to do that But if we had some sort of hookup to your computer as an option then if you have got a computer you can avoid that rather irritating thing Project Manager: An interesting point is that if the person does not have the computer we can still make the process easier because instead of having to look up codes maybe we can have it that one of the options they have is that they look up the name of the company on the LCD and then they maybe look up different names of different actual units that have been produced Or we have the remote control just go through them until it is like does this do the correct function and such","Marketing did not understand the purpose of a programmable remote control. Project Manager agreed with User Interface on that if users used the remote control for different devices, they would need to program particular commands into codes on the remote control. Project Manager added that users could even make the remote control perform a specific function by looking up the function name produced by themselves, instead of looking for the command code on the computer." Project Manager: I think the target audience is pretty much anybody under the age of say maybe sixty or something ludicrous the reason I am saying that is we are just looking at a a replacement remote control something that is stylish so maybe you are even just maybe you are narrowing down your target audience simply by saying if they are buying it that often or they are maybe looking to replace something then they have got a bit of free cash so that puts them potentially in the younger age bracket Maybe even single just for the reasons of excess cash flow Although of course I mean at twenty five Euros I do not think we are looking at charging the earth for the device,"Project Manager mentioned the target market group because the team would make a product evaluation on the next meeting. Project Manager implied that the team should consider a younger age bracket, for they were most likely to be the group that owned enough free cash, and was, at the same time, prone to replace their remote controls." "Grad C: and so we had a meeting on Friday talking about how to avoid that and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those and there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it s getting more complicated So if you know anyone interested in in what i m about to describe tell that person to to write a mail to me or Jerry soon fast the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` `` take in a batch of art `` `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah blah blah blah blah sort of analogous to what Fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific o comment entities and real world places you will find in Heidelberg And So out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple such as if if there is a cop a category in emptying your roll of film the person can then decide `` OK I want to do that at this place `` sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them but the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist s sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects And so the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah I wanted to go shopping here `` and `` I wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system IE comment Fey and and we are going to try out that Any questions ? Grad G: so y you will have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? But they will There s nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they will say `` well these are the things I want to do `` and Right so they will have a little bit more natural interaction ? Grad F: So they will be given this map which means that they will not have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? Grad C: it s a schematic tourist map So it will be i it will still require the that information and An Grad G: It w it does not have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way Grad C: N not not not really the street network Nuh Grad E: So you are just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? Grad C: a and the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names and we want to maybe ask them if you have get it sort of isolated street the the whatever `` River Street `` and they know that they have decided that yes that s where they want to do this kind of action that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it s too hard to memorize all these st strange German names And then we are going to have another we are going to have w another trial run IE the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is Ron Kay for who those who know him he s the founder of ICI So he will he s around seven seventy years old or something Grad G: I did not know he was the founder That s OK Grad C: And he also approached me and he offered to help our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and I said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` OK `` So that s what s going to happen tomorrow data Grad G: Using this new new plan Grad C: Which I will hopefully sort of scrape together t But thanks to Fey we already have sort of a nice blueprint and I can work with that Questions ? Comments on that ? If not we can move on No ? No more questions ? Grad E: I m not sure I totally understand this Grad G: So what s the s this is what you made Fey ? Grad E: but I m not sure I totally understand everything that s being talked about Grad G: Like so So it s just based on like the materials you had about Heidelberg Grad C: are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? Grad E: but I I imagine I will c just catch on Undergrad D: Based on the web site at the Grad G: Oh OK there s a web site and then you could like figure out what the cate Undergrad D: It s a tourist information web site Grad E: this is where they are supposed to Grad C: Talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on The question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task Because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat comment or as much as they can of that phrasing Grad G: are you worried about being able to identify The The goals that we ve d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes their question concerns So it s like the Enter versus View Grad C: we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction right ? That s where the instructor the person we are going to hire and the subjects sit down together with these high level things and so th the q first question for the subject is `` so these are things you know we thought a tourist can do Is there anything that interests you ? `` And the person can say `` sure sh this is something I would do I would go shopping `` ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well then you you may want to find out how to get over here because this is where the shopping district is `` Grad G: So the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ? Grad C: No Just sort of OK what what what would you like to buy and then OK there you want to buy a whatever cuckoos clocks OK and the there is a store there So the task then for that person is t finding out how to get there right ? That s sort of what s left And we know that the intention is to enter because we know that the person wants to buy a cuckoos clock Grad G: OK that s what I mean so like those tasks are all going to be unambiguous about which of the three modes PhD A: Well so the idea is to try to get the actual phrasing that they might use and try to interfere as little as possible with their choice of words Grad G: t That they will be here ? Grad C: Yes In a sense that s exactly the the the idea which is never possible in a in a s in a lab situation PhD A: Well you you the one experiment th that that that I ve read somewhere it was they you used pictures So to to actually specify the the tasks but you know i i Grad C: We had exactly that on our list of possible way things so we I even made a sort of a silly thing how that could work how you control you are here you you want to know how to get someplace and this is the place and it s a museum and you want to do some and and and there s a person looking at pictures So you know this is exactly getting someplace with the intention of entering and looking at pictures However not only was the common census were among all participants of Friday s meeting was it s going to be very laborious to to make these drawings for each different things all the different actions if at all possible and also people will get caught up in the pictures So all of a sudden we will get descriptions of pictures in there And people talking about pictures and pictorial representations I would s I would still be willing to try it PhD A: I mean I I m I m not saying it s necessary but but i i you might be able to combine you know text and and some sort of picture and also I think it it will be a good idea to show them the text and kind of chew the task and then take the test away the the the the the text away so that they are not guided by by by what you wrote but can come up with their with their own Grad C: they will have no more linguistic matter in front of them when they enter this room","The new system for collecting subject intention focused on allowing subjects to come up with the intent themselves. Instead of giving them a list of goals, the subjects would, with the help of an instructor, figure out what they want to do in the environment. The earlier interaction with the instructor would give them a sense of how specific their goals in the environment could be. Another idea was to use pictures for people to help determine their intention, but the manufacturing of pictures seemed to be a very intensive project." "Grad C: and so we had a meeting on Friday talking about how to avoid that and it proved finally fruitful in the sense that we came up with a new scenario for how to get the the subject m to really have intentions and sort of to act upon those and there the idea is now that next actually we we need to hire one more person to actually do that job because it it s getting more complicated So if you know anyone interested in in what i m about to describe tell that person to to write a mail to me or Jerry soon fast the idea now is to sort of come up with a high level of sort of abstract tasks `` go shopping `` `` take in a batch of art `` `` visit do some sightseeing `` blah blah blah blah blah sort of analogous to what Fey has started in in in compiling compiling here and already she has already gone to the trouble of of anchoring it with specific o comment entities and real world places you will find in Heidelberg And So out of these f s these high level categories the subject can pick a couple such as if if there is a cop a category in emptying your roll of film the person can then decide `` OK I want to do that at this place `` sort of make up their own itinerary a and and tasks and the person is not allowed to take sort of this h high level category list with them but the person is able to take notes on a map that we will give him and the map will be a tourist s sort of schematic representation with with symbols for the objects And so the person can maybe make a mental note that `` ah I wanted to go shopping here `` and `` I wanted to maybe take a picture of that `` and `` maybe eat here `` and then goes in and solves the task with the system IE comment Fey and and we are going to try out that Any questions ? Grad G: so y you will have those say somewhere what their intention was so you still have the the nice thing about having data where you know what the actual intention was ? But they will There s nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they will say `` well these are the things I want to do `` and Right so they will have a little bit more natural interaction ? Grad F: So they will be given this map which means that they will not have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? Grad C: it s a schematic tourist map So it will be i it will still require the that information and An","Grad C introduced the topic and explained that the new idea was to allow subjects to generate high level tasks, like going shopping, by themselves. Subjects would also be provided a high level schematic which would give them basic features of the environment. Though, the schematic would not contain detailed information, like a street map, which would be reserved for interactions with the wizard. An instructor would be hired to help subjects navigate the high level tasks." "Grad G: But they will There s nothing that says you know `` these are the things you want to do `` so they will say `` well these are the things I want to do `` and Right so they will have a little bit more natural interaction ? Grad F: So they will be given this map which means that they will not have to like ask the system for in for like high level information about where things are ? Grad C: it s a schematic tourist map So it will be i it will still require the that information and An Grad G: It w it does not have like streets on it that would allow them to figure out their way Grad C: N not not not really the street network Nuh Grad E: So you are just saying like what part of town the things are in or whatever ? Grad C: a and the map is more a means for them to have the buildings and their names and maybe some ma ma major streets and their names and we want to maybe ask them if you have get it sort of isolated street the the whatever `` River Street `` and they know that they have decided that yes that s where they want to do this kind of action that they have it with them and they can actually read them or sort of have the label for the object because it s too hard to memorize all these st strange German names And then we are going to have another we are going to have w another trial run IE the first with that new setup tomorrow at two and we have a real interesting subject which is Ron Kay for who those who know him he s the founder of ICI So he will he s around seven seventy years old or something Grad G: I did not know he was the founder That s OK Grad C: And he also approached me and he offered to help our project and he was more thinking about some high level thinking tasks and I said `` sure we need help you can come in as a subject `` and he said `` OK `` So that s what s going to happen tomorrow data Grad G: Using this new new plan Grad C: Which I will hopefully sort of scrape together t But thanks to Fey we already have sort of a nice blueprint and I can work with that Questions ? Comments on that ? If not we can move on No ? No more questions ? Grad E: I m not sure I totally understand this Grad G: So what s the s this is what you made Fey ? Grad E: but I m not sure I totally understand everything that s being talked about Grad G: Like so So it s just based on like the materials you had about Heidelberg Grad C: are you familiar with with the with the very rough setup of the data ? Grad E: but I I imagine I will c just catch on Undergrad D: Based on the web site at the Grad G: Oh OK there s a web site and then you could like figure out what the cate Undergrad D: It s a tourist information web site Grad E: this is where they are supposed to Grad C: Talk to a machine and it breaks down and then the human comes on The question is just sort of how do we get the tasks in their head that they have an intention of doing something and have a need to ask the system for something without giving them sort of a clear wording or phrasing of the task Because what will happen then is that people repeat repeat comment or as much as they can of that phrasing Grad G: are you worried about being able to identify The The goals that we ve d you guys have been talking about are this these you know identifying which of three modes their question concerns So it s like the Enter versus View Grad C: we we we will sort of get a protocol of the prior interaction right ? That s where the instructor the person we are going to hire and the subjects sit down together with these high level things and so th the q first question for the subject is `` so these are things you know we thought a tourist can do Is there anything that interests you ? `` And the person can say `` sure sh this is something I would do I would go shopping `` ? and then we can sort of this s instructor can say `` well then you you may want to find out how to get over here because this is where the shopping district is `` Grad G: So the interaction beforehand will give them hints about how specific or how whatever though the kinds of questions that are going to ask during the actual session ?",Grad G learned that the materials would be based on real materials about Heidelberg and that the instructor would allow subjects to get a feel for the system's capabilities. Grad G also learned that the interactions would be more natural. "Grad B: The r the in terms of why is it s laid out like this versus some other that s kind of a contentious point between the two of us but this is one wa so this is a way to link the way these roles are filled out to the action Because if we know that Enter is a t is an SPG action we know to look for an SPG schema and put the appropriate fill in the appropriate roles later on Grad G: And you could have also indicated that by saying `` Enter what are the kinds of action I am ? `` Right ? So there s just like sort of reverse organization right ? So like unless Are there reasons why one is better than the other I mean that come from other sources ? Grad C: Yes because nobod no the modules do not This is this is a schema that defines XML messages that are passed from one module to another mainly meaning from the natural language understanding or from the deep language understanding to the action planner Now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back each module will try have to go back to look up which you know entity can have which you know entity can have which parents and then So you always need the whole body of of y your model to figure out what belongs to what Or you always send it along with it nuh ? So you always send up `` here I am I am this person and I can have these parents `` in every message Grad G: OK so it s just like a pain to have to send it Grad C: It may or may not be a just a pain it s it s I m completely willing to to to throw all of this away you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that Grad E: I I would just like to ask like if it could happen for next time I mean just beca cuz I m new and I do not really just I just do not know what to make of this and what this is for and stuff like that you know so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this Grad C: we I will promise for the next time to have fleshed out N comment XML examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates and how this can come about nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` part And is there more to be said ? I think In principle what I I think that this approach does and e e whether or not we take the Enter View and we all throw up up the ladder wha how do how does Professor Peter call that ? The hhh comment silence su sublimination ? Throwing somebody up the stairs ? Have you never read the Peter s Principle anyone here ? Grad F: People reach their level of max their level of at which they are incompetent or whatever Grad C: and then you can throw them up the stairs OK so we can promote Enter View all all up a bit and and get rid of the blah blah X blah asterisk sub action item altogether No no problem with that and we w we we will play around with all of them but the principal distinction between having the the pure schema and their instantiations on the one hand and adding some whatever more intention oriented specification on parallel to that that this approach seems to be workable to me I do not know If you all share that opinion then that made my day much happier Grad B: This is a simple way to basically link roles to actions Grad G: wait R That s fine Grad B: That s the that was the intent of of it basically So I I do I m I m not Grad C: I m I m never happy when he uses the word `` roles `` Grad B: I b I mean ROLLS so Grad E: Oh you meant pastries then ? Grad B: pastries is what I m talking about Grad G: Pastry oh ba oh the bak bakery example Grad E: This is the bakery example Got it Alright Grad G: I guess I will agree to that then Grad C: OK That s all I have for today Oh no there s one more issue Bhaskara brought that one up Meeting time rescheduling","The team wanted to figure out how roles would be connected to actions. The thought that their current XML schema forced the model to look up, requiring the whole body of the model. The new idea they came up with was to create a parallel intention oriented specification in addition to the pure schema, which would allow for a more flexible schema." "Grad C: Now the the reason for for not using this approach is because you always will have to go back each module will try have to go back to look up which you know entity can have which you know entity can have which parents and then So you always need the whole body of of y your model to figure out what belongs to what Or you always send it along with it nuh ? So you always send up `` here I am I am this person and I can have these parents `` in every message Grad G: OK so it s just like a pain to have to send it Grad C: It may or may not be a just a pain it s it s I m completely willing to to to throw all of this away you know and and and it after some iterations we may just do that Grad E: I I would just like to ask like if it could happen for next time I mean just beca cuz I m new and I do not really just I just do not know what to make of this and what this is for and stuff like that you know so if someone could make an example of what would actually be in it like first of all what modules are talking to each other using this Grad C: we I will promise for the next time to have fleshed out N comment XML examples for a a run through and and see how this this then translates and how this can come about nuh ? including the sort of `` miracle occurs here `` part And is there more to be said ? I think In principle what I I think that this approach does and e e whether or not we take the Enter View and we all throw up up the ladder wha how do how does Professor Peter call that ?","Grad C thought an approach in which the model had to refer to parents seemed inefficient. The model would constantly have to go back. Grad C wanted to completely redo it, even if it meant throwing away what the team had developed thus far." "Industrial Designer: unit price unit production price cost thing we implemented the basic functions which is just TV functions plus the locator which was one of the marketing things cradle scroll wheel for the the channels and we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping your favourite channels functionality in the scroll Project Manager: Zapping your favourite channels eh ? User Interface: Scrolling through your favourites list Project Manager: Ah kay that is favourites Industrial Designer: Maybe it is just a Portuguese thing And that was the result Project Manager: Ah kay I like the the the the logo on there as well It is very prominent So this is the User Interface: So here I will give you the so this is the cradle unit and this is the actual remote itself so the scroll bar is or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here and then the volume controls are here and here you have got the keypad which is the numbers f from zero to nine and then ten This is the power button we have our we have the enter button and what was the other button here ? This is the teletext Industrial Designer: Start s the the start to to to User Interface: the programme button So this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming your the the type of television you want to use So the plastic is the white area of this of the model here and the red area is like a rubber covering So you can see that when it lays like this or like this and the buttons are all going to be rubber so it is pretty hard to actually damage it Project Manager: Is that could that be easy to for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ? User Interface: that might be a possible a mi possible problem but if you drop it Project Manager: Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it User Interface: and it depends on if it is sliding but I think it is pretty ergonomic You can feel it Project Manager: I take it that this is going to be slightly lighter in the final design as well User Interface: of course Well this is clay Project Manager: it is kind of cool You have to reach a little bit do not you User Interface: the the power button is a bit of a reach but I think we might scale down the final model a bit Project Manager: Ah that would not make sense User Interface: These this is a bit larger than it would be but Project Manager: It is cool I am impressed Industrial Designer: Do not have no one to handle that Project Manager: wh what is the marketing perspective ? Marketing: oh that is oh I like it I mean you guys gave me more than I was asking for so I am happy because we have got some really marketable features in this I think it is good Good good good job User Interface: Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability Industrial Designer: So you ha you have like the the base station with the little button for the where is my remote Marketing: It is great That is great It is a great feature Industrial Designer: Wicked is not it ? Project Manager: So let me get it if I press this button I see That is pretty cool Hang on User Interface: beep beep beep be shut up Marketing: So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he will be across town Project Manager: I plan to do that as well User Interface: no no no tha that is alri Project Manager: So the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? User Interface: Exactly that is exactly what those are for And there is one other feature that we were debating but we decided to go against it is you could we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger Project Manager: it is the right shape is not it ? User Interface: it it is it kind of feels like there should be something there but we could not figure out what button is important enough to put there And we we do not want to accidentally be hitting the power button like that so Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling because then it would need to be hit on both sides User Interface: Right So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit Project Manager: But it is definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that has not it ? Marketing: Yep I like Good job Project Manager: So is that the the final colour scheme as well or ? User Interface: Oh no this is just what we had to work with at the time So we will leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people Project Manager: It came off The scroll wheels a problem with them not being sort of I do not think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore Marketing: Well I mean of course I mean My my s my suggestion is we are going to go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions You know some blend of silvers and blacks Project Manager: Well i it is cool guys Kay so are we done with the this presentation ?","The industrial designer introduced that the product not only had some basic functions, it also had the locator function and provided users with a revolutionary way of zapping. As for the material, the product would be made of plastic and rubber. In addition, the final design was thought to be slightly lighter and smaller than the present model. Later, the group went on to check the controller's paging ability and talked about some details on buttons." "Project Manager: So the the two blue are are those for the the it to charge off of in ? User Interface: Exactly that is exactly what those are for And there is one other feature that we were debating but we decided to go against it is you could we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger Project Manager: it is the right shape is not it ? User Interface: it it is it kind of feels like there should be something there but we could not figure out what button is important enough to put there And we we do not want to accidentally be hitting the power button like that so Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling because then it would need to be hit on both sides User Interface: Right So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit Project Manager: But it is definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that has not it ?","The user interface designer thought it might be interesting to have a trigger button on the controller because it felt like there should be something, but they couldn't figure out what button was important enough to put there and they didn't want to accidentally hit the power button. Then the project manager proposed that having a trigger plus the scroll might solve the problem of landing and scrolling as it would be hit on both sides. The user interface designer agreed and further suggested tweaking that a little bit in the final design phase." "Marketing: So you are not going to find my my folder up there I got to do mine up at the board Project Manager: Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ? Marketing: No it is not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I could not create it Project Manager: Oh I see I see Marketing: I could not create it in the PowerPoint and I think I have got this really strange cable So what I had basically going from the PowerPoint format is that I like this a lot Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ? So what we had is we had the method That is not how you spell method is it ? No A So this does not go so fast this way And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh And to me with this product we got we got basically three things to market We have got the features we have the characteristics and we have the I I do not know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate Help me The the corporation stands behind the product So the features I think we got the scroll we have got the the locator we have got the durability we have got the dependability we have got you know the features that make this a unique product the characteristics I talk about we have reliability we have comfort we have ergonomics we have environmentally s sensitive and the corporation we are talking about we are we are a new we are a new company We are wanting to make a name for ourself We are wanting you to find our product so we are going to give you a good product at a fair price One thing I would want to to see is is can we can we get a lifetime guarantee on this product a normal use guarantee which means that this product for the for the life of of the life use if it should have a technical problem that we could re replace it at no cost ? That was something I would be interested in so without going into great details we have a we have a product it has the features and the characteristics and the background I believe to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros We are going to be competitive and we are going to we are going to have a market niche w Project Manager: Do you would you a argue that that we are better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could but lowering our profit margins ? Marketing: That that would be that would be I think a decision best made by corporate I I m for my evaluation based on what our competition is I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the exclusivity sense than the mass market sense But I am sh I am sure open to to market this in either direction But you guys came up with a great product and at that cost I think it there is nobody else that is putting this this combination of of ingredients together The only limitations I see to this is that we are focused on television only that is the only that is the only drawback I see to this But with all of these other features I think people c one thing I am I am hoping for is people are not going to even notice There is going to be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing does not work for my DVD and my but I like these other things so they keep it they do not take it back Project Manager: And we are actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway are not we ? Th there is no fundamentally different technology to do that Marketing: Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? You know like like a a sim card in a in a in a telephone You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after Industrial Designer: W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff but Marketing: Mmhmm but you follow what I am s I am s Industrial Designer: We we w we could get another version of it that actually works But Marketing: because if if we can make this unit upgradable then we are but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything but that is that was just an idea I had to me the only additions Project Manager: the plus there is the the risk of making it unusable as well or making it less b because at the moment it is actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons you know what they do it is very simple and it just works Mm there is a risk of that Marketing: Yep But anyway that is","The marketing expert thought there were three things making the product marketable - the features, the characteristics, and the corporation behind the product. One drawback of the product was that it was only targeted at TV, but the marketing believed this limitation wouldn't be noteworthy in comparison with other good features. Besides, the marketing proposed that the product should be upgradable but the project manager pointed out the risk of doing that." "Marketing: No A So this does not go so fast this way And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh And to me with this product we got we got basically three things to market We have got the features we have the characteristics and we have the I I do not know what we would call the other part what we call you know the the the corp corporate Help me The the corporation stands behind the product So the features I think we got the scroll we have got the the locator we have got the durability we have got the dependability we have got you know the features that make this a unique product the characteristics I talk about we have reliability we have comfort we have ergonomics we have environmentally s sensitive and the corporation we are talking about we are we are a new we are a new company We are wanting to make a name for ourself We are wanting you to find our product so we are going to give you a good product at a fair price One thing I would want to to see is is can we can we get a lifetime guarantee on this product a normal use guarantee which means that this product for the for the life of of the life use if it should have a technical problem that we could re replace it at no cost ? That was something I would be interested in so without going into great details we have a we have a product it has the features and the characteristics and the background I believe to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros We are going to be competitive and we are going to we are going to have a market niche w Project Manager: Do you would you a argue that that we are better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could but lowering our profit margins ? Marketing: That that would be that would be I think a decision best made by corporate I I m for my evaluation based on what our competition is I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the exclusivity sense than the mass market sense","The marketing expert thought there were three things making the product marketable - the features, the characteristics, and the corporation behind the product. The features included the scroll, the locator, durability, and dependability. The characteristics referred to reliability, comfort, ergonomics, and being environmentally sensitive. As for the business background, they were a new company wanting to make a name for themselves and aiming at supplying good products at a fair price. All these above made the product competitive and the marketing believed they should go after more of the exclusivity sense than the mass market sense." "Marketing: Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ? You know like like a a sim card in a in a in a telephone You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after Industrial Designer: W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff but Marketing: Mmhmm but you follow what I am s I am s Industrial Designer: We we w we could get another version of it that actually works But Marketing: because if if we can make this unit upgradable then we are but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything but that is that was just an idea I had to me the only additions Project Manager: the plus there is the the risk of making it unusable as well or making it less b because at the moment it is actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons you know what they do it is very simple and it just works Mm there is a risk of that Marketing: Yep But anyway that is","The marketing suggested producing the controller in a way that makes it upgradable like a sim card in the telephone. However, the industrial designer argued that if the controller was to have other functions it would need more buttons and they should design another version instead. Also, the project manager pointed out there would be some risks of making it unusable or less usable." "Project Manager: so we can talk about finance now So I have a little spreadsheet for us where I I was wondering you when you talked about the fifteen point eight Euros I was wondering how you came up with that figure ? User Interface: Well that was just just our technical team added up the production costs of the individual units Project Manager: so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this Now Industrial Designer: Very co very colf colourful Project Manager: I have made a f few assumptions here in that I am assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros equivalent to solar cells which I think is probably fair considering that we have inhouse manufacturing of power adaptors already and I am assuming that the locator beacon the you know the Can be made for it sounded different that time can be made for a similar price to an LC display an do you think that is fair coming from a m the manufacturing ? User Interface: I do think we that we we do not need the events chip on print we only need the the regular chip on print so there may have been a m miscalculation in there Project Manager: Yep So we are down to sixteen point four User Interface: And we and we have a singlecurved Project Manager: Is that a singlecurved rather than a doublecurved ? We are not entirely sure what singlecurve versus doublecur Marketing: We have got a we have got a curve and a droop I do not know whether that Project Manager: I am convinced But we save one Euro that way ? So we come bring it down to Fifteen point four User Interface: See it is a little bit more than f singlecurved So it is fifteen point eight that is where we came up with it Project Manager: Do do not speak so it is in here in that w do we have any we have special form do not we ? User Interface: Ah What do you know Project Manager: But the the the we have not talked about any special colour though I do not th User Interface: Oh it is a that is not very special it is pretty Project Manager: if we are going for greys and silvers then I do not think we are O so we are Pushbutton scroll wheel we are basically we have th is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ? Just a scroll ? It is not one of the scrolls where for example with this one you could push it down to be a button ? User Interface: no we just use it as a scroll Project Manager: then we have fifteen point eight Euros User Interface: It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say Project Manager: so we are on to the User Interface: S s kind of s frighteningly accurate","When evaluating the cost of the product, the group discussed some details of the components and made some adjustments on the chip, curve, button and scroll wheel. They finally got an accurate estimate of fifteen point eight Euros, which was thought to be within the budget of twelve-five Euros." "Marketing: Yes I made it English from now on Where are are all the other presentations ? Industrial Designer: I just put it in the in the shared folder so it should be I think so conceptual design What or whatever does it Marketing: Ah Because I see only my own presentation Industrial Designer: No no no can you go back one ? because it has to be PowerPoint pre components design that is it Marketing: This ? I will just put it in there Industrial Designer: I did get a bit more done than the last time because I knew that I did not have time so I just copy and paste everything into the Marketing: I can not cut and paste it into the other folder but Project Manager: You can look at the final report because I have to record everything we are deciding and such so I am trying to write it down between everything else Industrial Designer: Sometimes I have these popups or these sounds and there is nothing there and also with I do not know how to use PowerPoint so it takes me forever to get something done with it User Interface: I I have got the same problem as well Project Manager: Here we go again Welcome we have again three presentations and then we have to decide on what concepts the mobile phone has to f the remote control has to support Industrial Designer: Who wants to start ? Marketing: Alright Did you open it already or no Ah Ah Yes So welcome to the marketing presentation once again this time about trendwatching well there has been inv investigation again in the in the remote control market it shows a number of developments I will address them in a moment fashion watch watchers have detected the trends for young public because that is our public well fruit and vegetables will be will be the most important theme for clothing shoes and furniture And the feel of the material is expected to be spongey So the developments I will address them oh well this is the fruit and vegetables looks of fresh bright colours So to give you an idea well the developments ? development one well most important aspect for remote control happens to be a fancy lookandfeel Instead of the current functional lookandfeel well fancy stands for an original lookandfeel of the case and the interface And the second most important aspect is that a remote control should be technological innovative well it stands for the use of technical features that do not exist in current remote controls I think we pretty much covered that with our screen and and speech recognition so I do not expect that to be a problem And the third development is that the remote control should be easy to use Well the first aspect was twice as important as the second aspectw which was twice as important as the third aspect So that kind of gets you this ratios So fancy lookandfeel is the most important point of attention so the fruits and vegetables in combination with the spongey material well technolog technological innovation we have covered that pretty much I guess and easy to use I do not think that will be problem So my point of attention is especially this part That this will be a crux So that was the marketing presentation I had only one document left Industrial Designer: And shall I go first ? User Interface: No I I do not mi I do not mind Do you want to go first ? Marketing: So a k a small example Kind of this this look nothing about the buttons but just sponge kind of thing and and some fruit and colours I do not know Just made a quick design Project Manager: Cool you are just the user interface ? User Interface: It is better than than my drawing but I have to design the Industrial Designer: I am dealing with the components design let us see I used some design examples we had from similar products And I used possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design That is why I had to wanted to go first Well they gave me an idea about what people want We are f mainly focusing on this group but I want to make the distinction clear I could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so I do not have examples of how it looks like But it comes down to what you what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking type If you the young dynamic people want soft primary colours which looks like fruits you know you can and shapes that are curved and not solid straight lines anymore So this basically goes on to what you were mentioning earlier There is a lot of factors involved in choosing the components There is a lot of options that we have to discuss for example the energy source we have four types The basic battery we have a hand dynamo which we we Dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing if you shake it Which will be fun for toddlers right if they want to use the And of course solar cells But I do not know how we would use that into the design of the actual product also also in you know countries where there is n is not much light like in Scandinavia they would not be y able to use it half of the year you know So that is not cool either So for the a case there is the traditional uncurved flat hard case Single curved which means that it has curves in one dimension Or the double curved I was not able to finish my personal preferences sheet but well you know that we will have to go for the double curved because it is daring and different from what we have now the case materials Well we have all kinds of hard materials like the the hard plastic the wood and the titanium I would definitely go for rubber because it fits most in what people want to see nowadays poo this is a lot of text I was not able to organise this yet We have several interface designs we can use a scroll buttons for the menus but we already kind of decided to go for the f for the pushbuttons for the the arrow buttons So that is not really interesting Electronics ? maybe we want to decide on what electronics to use the advanced chip I think is easiest to implement for the production because they they can print it better I think this is about it I was working on some per personal preferences I first chose for the battery because I am traditional and that is the most obvious easiest choice to go to But I really think that we should maybe think about the kinetic energy where you have to move the thing to be able to use it User Interface: Or combine both with a with one Project Manager: I think you can only fit one source of energy on the Marketing: I guess we can only choose one Industrial Designer: I can imagine that the kinetic type energy source would be more expensive to make But it is more longlasting that the people do not have to ever buy batteries again Marketing: And it is more fun Project Manager: I did not receive any info Industrial Designer: And it is also more fun I always chuck my remote control around so Marketing: and especially when the materials rubber It can be done I mean you can not harm it so it is a perfect combination I guess Industrial Designer: You do not have to be scared about bouncing it off the g floor and breaking it or whatever So that is the end of it Marketing: So double curved is like this this this or Industrial Designer: No it means curved in two dimensions So w single curved ? let us say would be a b square box but then with curves on one dimension And double curved would means that it would have curves curves in every direction Like three D Marketing: Also in in height ? User Interface: One one very important thing I was thinking about is the speech option We were going to use that So that is one thing which I am not sure of how to implement it into the remote control Project Manager: Well the visual representation is not there with speech User Interface: No but it has to be combined with with the menu for functions and Project Manager: I think you can just match the speech commands with the functions that are already present So I do not think you have to design anything else for that User Interface: But do j do we do the speech just for the basic options for the simple buttons ? also for the advanced options ? we have this very basic trendy design Everybody says it so that is what is in the in the last meeting we we were putting the the simple and the advanced options separated That is obvious Pressing the the menu option will disable all other options on your remote control And only the the LCD panel will light up and then you can only change the the options Marketing: And and the and the buttons that you need to control it I guess User Interface: design has to be very attractive but that is your your op your you have to delete this but this is the the the simple layout display on the upper side with the the menu button and maybe a some sort of cancel button or save button Project Manager: That would be the back You did read the minutes I wrote ? You did read the minutes I wrote ? User Interface: What ? A little bit I think but not not everything w Project Manager: Oh because I pretty much summed up all the buttons there were So User Interface: Oh I did not read that Project Manager: I hate doing work for nothing User Interface: But But this is the the basic design for the for the m for the buttons I wanted to to categorise everything with a speech display sound everything you you noted in your minutes every pushbutton has has its own LED light So you can change m make it more trendy for for younger people And if there are older people they wanted more more luxurous so that is an a also an option that was it Project Manager: again Ugh so what we have to decide is what kind of components do we use ? energy source chip type case type And user interface But I did not see a clear distinction between these so I think what we have is So we only we already decided that kinetic would be the choice for energy the case would be doubly curved So Rubber material And that is the only thing we have left Industrial Designer: we need the the chip on print to be able to support the the screen and and f audio function Project Manager: Oh No it is easy Marketing: So that is is that is that the advanced chip ? Industrial Designer: Otherwise you would have a simple chip just for pressing buttons But we need more I am just thinking this is not my department but I I am not sure what this is going to cost to be able to m Project Manager: I did not get any info on this So Industrial Designer: So because we need to sell it for twenty five Euro a piece That is going to be difficult huh ? Marketing: The cost of making it should be twelve and a half ? Project Manager: I did not get any information about that so User Interface: We are going to produce it in China so it is no problem Industrial Designer: Child labour man we love it Project Manager: Who does not let us see Is there a new thing ? Marketing: well the interface type supplements User Interface: it is it is quite difficult because we we have not got all the options Project Manager: Ooh No do you have a picture of doubly curved case ? And could you put that in the group folder ? Of the project folder Industrial Designer: let me see Wait a sec Marketing: If you go to your homepage or something you should Industrial Designer: I am going there now Marketing: I got my fresh and fyoo fruity picture also over there so Project Manager: Ah you did not draw it yourself User Interface: This is the the menu I was looking at Marketing: I was thinking of that also with with a with a arrow So that indicates that there is an menu under that menu Industrial Designer: Maybe it is easier if you guys come over here S see this is the the the standard traditional type where the form serves the function you know It is like really basic But this m is more appealing to old people and we do not want that This is what we are looking for And th that means curved in both dire dire dimensions Not only like this but it has to be Project Manager: also like this So you can hold it Industrial Designer: exactly It has to be kind of instead of the PlayStation the module It has to be like the the Game Cube you know where your thumbs would be laying in the instrument and it has to be nice to hold And User Interface: But it has also to it it has also to be luxurous for for rich people Th this looks a little bit like like for only for children So Project Manager: The childrens story I have got it Industrial Designer: but that is that is the the problem the dilemma actually because we want to appeal to the to the young public with fancy with flashy colours and with a lot of shape And and the and the rubber it it will look cheap always User Interface: The colour but the the colours you you can make it make the colours with LEDs beneath the the buttons If you press a button and you can disable the the colour LEDs for for people that do not like it Industrial Designer: There is mobile phones in which you can change the colour also of the lights Maybe we should consider this function To customise it and so I mean kids can make it look more flashy with different kinds of colours and people who want something you know different or more design they can go for one colour like for example this photo th camera Personally I think it is really ugly Just give me the thing that it is inside there Project Manager: but this this the is for the Industrial Designer: maybe I am too old for this stuff So those I think are all my Marketing: Also a kind of rubber Industrial Designer: And this is this is with the curved that I mean Project Manager: Well we could make a compromise between that But I do not know if it is worth the effort Industrial Designer: A compromise between what ? Project Manager: instead of doubly curved we take a single curved So to appeal a little more to the all the public Industrial Designer: This this would be single curved ? Marketing: there is only in in this dimension Like this So curvy or not so we keep it singly c single curved then ? Project Manager: that would be an option I do not know what you think Industrial Designer: I mean our aim is to make something different right ? To make something new I would go for the double curved And I I am I am thinking you know a drawing palette where you have the shape for your thumb So it kind of holds nicely something like that User Interface: but if you if you make it more curved we we can make more and more options for buttons Industrial Designer: Well this is really your decision but User Interface: If you have it have it in your hand you you you are not only you do not need one dimension but you can use other dimensions for pressing the the buttons Industrial Designer: As well You can make a trigger button or something like that User Interface: Something to shoot at your television Industrial Designer: or that that is the confirmation button or something that you scroll with your thumb with the arrows and then confirm That would be a nice way to use it but I mean I am thinking big already and we need something that well that that you can able to use in one hand I think Project Manager: Different Stands out Or Oh a one hand solution Marketing: So from top view it looks kind of like this But from the side you you can have it also in a kind of shape Maybe because the the screen is on top you can have Project Manager: To switch from buttons to interface If you turn it a little Marketing: Maybe you can c have this kind of shape A little upwards So that the screen is more Project Manager: Oh Least you can easily see it Marketing: towards yourself so you can easily see your screen Well well you have it in your hand so it is a kind of an angle from your eyes to the screen So then you have double double curved in some way So this this is so the screen is positioned over here Oh Something like that And the buttons are more well it is very thick now but Industrial Designer: I understand what you mean How about we do a a popup screen like the laptop So that the only the simple functions will be visible at first Marketing: ? That that you can press it and then it comes up ? Or Industrial Designer: And then if you want Project Manager: so you have a the the side view Marketing: But then the side view can be straight If you have a popup screen But I do not know if that is too expensive Project Manager: So and you want to be able to Marketing: I mean maybe it is too much Industrial Designer: I would draw it like this Let us say this is the side view That you have a a screen that will come up here and can go down that way If you know what I mean So that it would come up like that Project Manager: so the buttons are on top here and you flip it over that way Industrial Designer: or preferably even keep the simple buttons here and then under the screen even you could put more more advanced buttons Project Manager: Oh Right that is good idea Marketing: Oh the advanced buttons Right User Interface: That is the the more advanced options were for the for the menu Industrial Designer: F for the LCD menu right ? User Interface: You just want to hide them all ? Project Manager: No not all because you need most of them the arrow buttons But you can hide the and the back button And the menu button also because when you flip it open and you can maybe even drop the menu button because maybe if you flip it open it will auto activate amauto automatically Marketing: So b but you have t you need some button to flip this open Project Manager: Why ? You could just make it mechanical Industrial Designer: True True But you can make a you can make a trigger here You know a simple with a Marketing: and it says menu and it flips open and then you have the buttons to control it in combination with your User Interface: That is but it is it is not it is not very very strong if you drop it one time Marketing: True It c it can go open Industrial Designer: Well the the idea of it was is that because you close it you cover the LCD screen and it will not be vulnerable to scratches or whatever Project Manager: If you cover it with rubber Mm Marketing: An adv an adv and it will be covered in some kind of thin rubber layer or something like that Industrial Designer: Exactly Exactly We just have to make sure that the closing mechanism will not break Marketing: It is very no it is very strong Industrial Designer: Th it is very solid Project Manager: so that that may work Industrial Designer: That actually will offer some extra protection for the Project Manager: but then we still have the the the thing of the the the shape Industrial Designer: I was thinking if if you have your hand it this is your th Marketing: the lower part does not work I guess so maybe you should try it over there Industrial Designer: If this is your thumb and this is your hand like that With your wrist That you that it would be kind of shape like this you know So it is easier to hold in your hand to y f User Interface: But when you are lefthanded that is that is a problem Project Manager: Maybe can design two versions Industrial Designer: then w then you would have to to make it like this","According to the Marketing, the drawback of the existing remote controls was that they were not so good-looking, so their conceptual remote control would be with an appealing and bright color.The Industrial Designer laid his emphasis on the materials that he would not like the remote control to be made in a too formal way, like those the elders were using. As for the User Interface, he proposed to add a speak recognition system onto the remote control in order to make it able to function once it received the user's voice instruction." Industrial Designer: I am dealing with the components design let us see I used some design examples we had from similar products And I used possibilities from our manufacturing department about current components which will have to be implemented in the design That is why I had to wanted to go first Well they gave me an idea about what people want We are f mainly focusing on this group but I want to make the distinction clear I could not drag the pictures into the the slides so s so I do not have examples of how it looks like But it comes down to what you what you think we should do with the spongey and the fruity looking type If you the young dynamic people want soft primary colours which looks like fruits you know you can and shapes that are curved and not solid straight lines anymore So this basically goes on to what you were mentioning earlier There is a lot of factors involved in choosing the components There is a lot of options that we have to discuss for example the energy source we have four types The basic battery we have a hand dynamo which we we Dutch refer to it as the kneipgatt the kinetic provision of energy which means if you move the thing if you shake it Which will be fun for toddlers right if they want to use the,"The Marketing proposed to use titanium as the material of the front side of the remote control for that it would look strong but not be so hard to handle. However, he went on to point out the problem that the color would be dark, which meant that it might not cater for the youth's tastes. Thus they might not use the titanium as the main material." Industrial Designer: and people who want something you know different or more design they can go for one colour like for example this photo th camera Personally I think it is really ugly Just give me the thing that it is inside there,"In order to meet with the annual trend of fruity elements, the Industrial Designer suggested making the remote control in a banana shape. For one thing, it would be related to the annual fashion trend and for another, the yellow color would satisfy the youth. However, in case the banana shape would be out of fashion next year, it might not be a perfect solution." "User Interface: But that is that is very expensive Industrial Designer: Like like you drew here And maybe th then make this thicker also than the centre I would give it a female shape Project Manager: The female shape With two Industrial Designer: Obviously Make it more appealing to guys User Interface: We we could make some some rubber some rubber mouse with which you can change Marketing: but but that is optional for later I guess I mean we have to make Industrial Designer: but we have hardware inside which is so it has to have some sort of basic shape Marketing: we we better so choose one Industrial Designer: And also the screen you can not mould it You know kind of thing Marketing: so we should better choose one sh one shape But that is the kind of the idea so it lays good in the hand and then on on the side with with your thumb Industrial Designer: You can place the screen here which can come Marketing: you you can you can use you can use the button option Project Manager: So the keywords are primary co colours spongey ? Industrial Designer: And but then I w I would I would do the arrows here kind of thing Marketing: Spongey can be reached by means of Industrial Designer: Those buttons ? And the simple buttons here Marketing: And and the and the control thngs in the middle ? The the the arrows ? Industrial Designer: I y eah that is what I mean User Interface: No the arrows over here Industrial Designer: and here the s simple Project Manager: I think that it is a nice design Industrial Designer: or do we want to make its shape look like a banana or something ? Marketing: bananas wierd shape and other fruits also so it is better to have some sort of basic print and then a fruit print in some primary colours I do not know what what colours should the basic print be like ? Like some soft green or something ? User Interface: Or blue ? Dark blue or Marketing: and then and then very bright a yellow banana an orange a green apple stuff like that with very bright tones I guess Industrial Designer: w we need very primary colours like bright red bright yellow Marketing: So you have something like User Interface: but the primary colours w we can create with the with the LEDs on the on the remote control If you we If you make it just a bl give it a blue colour then it is just a neutral colour also for the for the more for the people Marketing: Mm That does not really work To draw I guess Oh What is this ? Project Manager: N no you have to exit You could also make line with Marketing: Oh Wh why not go for the twenty ? That is what I call painting So that is that is a dark blue basic colour I guess Project Manager: and then on top of that Marketing: It is pretty nice And then Oh with some some yellow banana Industrial Designer: And how about some some flashing standby lights ? Like you have on the Samsung well I do not like to call brands phones the you know that because I remember from one of our first meetings that people lose their remote controls often So it not not only in in the colours of the LEDs that we want something to keep it visible at all times or Marketing: How do you mean ? Project Manager: if you if flashing colour so you can not lose it basically Well I think it is a bit too much but Marketing: an orange Well alright well this is more like purple I guess but it is should be more real dark blue so the contrast with the with the fruit objects is pretty high So That would be a nice nice device I guess User Interface: And which which colour should should I give the the display ? Marketing: I mean the the colour of the background of the display ? Ah well I do not guess it s has to be a sixty sixty six five thousand colour so too expensive Project Manager: And then you can use yellow or semething Why not ? Aye Marketing: So just just a a blue blue backlight or something like that Green is too oldfashioned But blue blues J Industrial Designer: As long as you loo use high contrast between the the background and the foreground colour User Interface: maybe a maybe a white a white backlight ? Industrial Designer: So that people with with Marketing: I know you sh you should test it under under a light conditions I mean it is hard to tell I do not know Industrial Designer: And also for people who are a bit colourblind Project Manager: No so that is mostly red and green I believe Marketing: Which which colour should the buttons be ? Project Manager: Woah All all buttons ? User Interface: That is how we are going to make it more trendy Or is it too expensive ? Marketing: But maybe I mean they have to they have to have some colour right ? And if the background is very dark blue Industrial Designer: But do not we want to make the background the the bright colo colours ? So th the total of the thing is very bright ? Like the pictures I showed you guys Those things were all like like bright red bright red flashy Marketing: Does not work very well More like this colour Industrial Designer: something like that something that stands out more Marketing: And then then yellow and orange and red objects on it or something But then then again which colour should the buttons be ? The the press buttons Should they be white or black or User Interface: And it it looks quite cheap that colour I think It is it is not Marketing: but it is pretty fresh on the other side Industrial Designer: It is actually a pretty trendy colour at the moment User Interface: It is it is trendy But Marketing: My couch is in that colour Well it works pretty well And then time was up Industrial Designer: Do you get a popup if we Marketing: That you have five minutes left or Project Manager: Y left left and then I have to kick you out Marketing: That should be pretty nice colour But maybe the buttons all buttons in red is maybe a bad contrast for colourblind people Because the of the green User Interface: But the but the buttons have their own LEDs or not ? Project Manager: They have LEDs but they have a colour Industrial Designer: Red and green are actually the b the easiest to discriminate Even for colourblind They will see one of each as grey But if you use green on blue those kind of colours will look the same Marketing: So red buttons are ? Project Manager: You can make them red User Interface: That that is a default setting The the red buttons Project Manager: But I think you need to keep in mind that the LEDs are just extra light Marketing: How do you mean ? Project Manager: they they do not determine the colour that much I think User Interface: I I was think about a red red LEDs and blue LEDs and Project Manager: Because you have to print on them you have a background Marketing: No that is that is too busy I guess Project Manager: partly but you have to print on the number Or the the sign So you can not change the colour so Marketing: You better bet better better keep the LED and the button itself in the same colour I guess bit of light and attention Industrial Designer: what we should do I think is is make kind of a seethrough plastic button with one coloured LED behind it So that the whole button will shine as the colour the And if you think about easy to use buttons we have to well we have to make it the shape so that it is easy to hold f for both hands but also that you can reach the buttons with your thumb if you hold the machine Project Manager: with Do not mean to discourage you but basically you two are going to work on the smartboard Next thirty minutes to design something so And the You will do the evaluation Marketing: Which we do not have yet So wh how should I do that ? Project Manager: I do not know You probably get a mail Marketing: Oh Or you you or you send it to me Or just because you are going to design it on this board right ? Project Manager: but maybe you can do the evaluation you do not have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow I do not know Marketing: I I probably get instruction on that how to do that so I make another presentation I guess I kn I know what is going to happen in in so Project Manager: About You have the basic idea Marketing: I have a basic idea Project Manager: And you two are going to do this Lookandfeel and Industrial Designer: So we are going to work here ? On this sketchboard ? Project Manager: So I make new page and be creative User Interface: But we have to do it at this moment after th this meeting ? Project Manager: Then we have to see something which we can User Interface: Ah so this is basically the what what we are thinking about ?","As to cater to the fashion trend, the group decided to put the remote control in a fruity shape and a bright lovely color. Then in order to make their product both good-looking and comfortable to hold, they reached the agreement that the front side of the remote control would be made of plastic while the back would be made of titanium. The group also spent some time on the internal design of the product, for example, the chip would be made of silicon and electrical cable would be just the same as other counterparts." "Industrial Designer: Those buttons ? And the simple buttons here Marketing: And and the and the control thngs in the middle ? The the the arrows ? Industrial Designer: I y eah that is what I mean User Interface: No the arrows over here Industrial Designer: and here the s simple Project Manager: I think that it is a nice design","While discussing the button layout, the group found that some of the elements could not be removable on the remote control, so the Industrial Designer proposed to make those elements with titanium and other things with plastic. However, the Marketing did not agree with this because he thought the plastic would not make the remote control look strong or be satisfactory to be held in hand." "Marketing: Which we do not have yet So wh how should I do that ? Project Manager: I do not know You probably get a mail Marketing: Oh Or you you or you send it to me Or just because you are going to design it on this board right ? Project Manager: but maybe you can do the evaluation you do not have to evaluate yet but you can make a procedure which to follow I do not know Marketing: I I probably get instruction on that how to do that so I make another presentation I guess I kn I know what is going to happen in in so Project Manager: About You have the basic idea Marketing: I have a basic idea Project Manager: And you two are going to do this Lookandfeel and Industrial Designer: So we are going to work here ? On this sketchboard ?","The User Interface proposed to make most of the buttons in a round shape which altogether located in a triangle. In the middle of the triangle, there would be a square button and the four buttons next to it would be respectively the channel control and the volume control, just as all the other remote controls." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Good morning In terms of local primary mental health support services what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health Wales Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people and how much of this is due to an increase in demand ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes thanks very much So it is important to say I think at the outset just by way of reminder that the target quite rightly changed for children and young people The target changed some years ago for adults so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children So the services were working a couple of years ago with significant demand and then a change in the standard I think you are absolutely right your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children particularly within the 28 days I would say— And we have had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce the staff who would have been working at that earlier stage in local primary mental health into a bit more of the secondary element which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical because actually if we do not have—and I believe we do not have—enough capacity in that part of the system then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this So I think we will have seen by the evidence submission that demand has increased not just in Wales but in the UK and it has increased significantly We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so we have more contacts more staff shorter access times so that is a good news story We have not got it completely sustained at this stage and therefore the focus of the delivery units primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you I know from my own experience as a constituency AM I have families who tell me that they can not get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that is— And I do not like to put it in resource terms but it is false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family but obviously in terms of cost as well Do you find that that is a common theme across Wales ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes I think that the thrust of that is absolutely right So we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that is why this is a whole system not compartmentalised I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS but can be supported often by telephone at that earlier stage My sense of where we go next in terms of you know you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the missing middle as you referred to it in your report is to make sure we have got a fully joinedup multiagency team approach to that And I think that will need some resourcing to support that yet to be fully determined But yesterdays announcement about youth work the Governments commitment to primary care CAMHS et cetera—that is all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS And just a final note on that if I may—at the beginning of the programme we had a report from Hafal called Making Sense and there were 10 key asks if you like of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service They said Please do not medicalise it—I am paraphrasing now of course—Please do not medicalise it please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then when we really need help please ensure that it is there at that more specialist level That is been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme So that reflects the questions that you were asking really Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? And also given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year who in your view is best placed to forward this work stream and what will be the biggest challenges ? It is a bit of a long question so break it up however you like And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes I think that is helpfully laid out in three stages So you are absolutely right there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support It brought all of the agencies together which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list apparently for places So there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this In relation to the next steps there is a planning group reflection in early July in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage One is that we develop those valuesled approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area and then thirdly to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps So that is the next stage of that I am pretty sure we will come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the childrens commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work So that will run alongside But during the summer then we will be developing that framework approach and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September and then a followup workshop in October on this matter On your question of Well what happens after the programme ? we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme I am pretty secure on the specialist CAMHS element That will move most likely to the CAMHS network which is part of the NHS mental health network I actually chair the mental health network and that is one part of that The wholeschool approach element is already settled in Government and we have got a connection in to that The question that is outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go I am currently in discussions with Welsh Government officials around that I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work We can not afford that we have come so far for this not now to proceed I think there is a huge momentum behind this I do not see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach as we move forward So I am not in a position to say And the legacy arrangements will be— but I am in a position to say that I am having those discussions with Welsh Government officials They know my view that we have got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward and I believe that they are supportive of that","The Mental Health Measure's target had increased significantly among the UK. The programme well met the demand with more contacts, more staff, and shorter access times, but it still did not completely sustain at that stage. As for intervention resources, there had been good attempts to help. As for the stakeholder workshop, it was successful support on early help and enhanced support. Finally, as for the legacy arrangements, CAMHS element would move to CAMHS network, part of the NHS mental health network." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? And also given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year who in your view is best placed to forward this work stream and what will be the biggest challenges ? It is a bit of a long question so break it up however you like And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes I think that is helpfully laid out in three stages So you are absolutely right there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support It brought all of the agencies together which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list apparently for places So there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this In relation to the next steps there is a planning group reflection in early July in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage One is that we develop those valuesled approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area and then thirdly to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps So that is the next stage of that I am pretty sure we will come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the childrens commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work So that will run alongside But during the summer then we will be developing that framework approach and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September and then a followup workshop in October on this matter On your question of Well what happens after the programme ? we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme I am pretty secure on the specialist CAMHS element That will move most likely to the CAMHS network which is part of the NHS mental health network I actually chair the mental health network and that is one part of that The wholeschool approach element is already settled in Government and we have got a connection in to that The question that is outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go I am currently in discussions with Welsh Government officials around that I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work We can not afford that we have come so far for this not now to proceed I think there is a huge momentum behind this I do not see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach as we move forward So I am not in a position to say And the legacy arrangements will be— but I am in a position to say that I am having those discussions with Welsh Government officials They know my view that we have got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward and I believe that they are supportive of that",The specialist CAMHS element would move to the CAMHS network. The whole-school approach had already been settled in the Government while the programme had constructed a relative connection. "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support ? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented ? And also given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year who in your view is best placed to forward this work stream and what will be the biggest challenges ? It is a bit of a long question so break it up however you like And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes I think that is helpfully laid out in three stages So you are absolutely right there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support It brought all of the agencies together which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list apparently for places So there was a lot of demand and a lot of interest in this In relation to the next steps there is a planning group reflection in early July in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage One is that we develop those valuesled approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area and then thirdly to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps So that is the next stage of that I am pretty sure we will come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of the regional partnership boards There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the childrens commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forward this work So that will run alongside But during the summer then we will be developing that framework approach and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference in September and then a followup workshop in October on this matter On your question of Well what happens after the programme ? we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme I am pretty secure on the specialist CAMHS element That will move most likely to the CAMHS network which is part of the NHS mental health network I actually chair the mental health network and that is one part of that The wholeschool approach element is already settled in Government and we have got a connection in to that The question that is outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go I am currently in discussions with Welsh Government officials around that I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work We can not afford that we have come so far for this not now to proceed I think there is a huge momentum behind this I do not see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach as we move forward So I am not in a position to say And the legacy arrangements will be— but I am in a position to say that I am having those discussions with Welsh Government officials They know my view that we have got to put something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward and I believe that they are supportive of that","The workshop brought all the agencies together, along with their demands and interests. Furthermore, there was a planning group reflection for the next stage to which three commitments had been made. First, values-led approaches were to be developed to bring multiple agencies together to have a common purpose. The second was to develop ingredients for successful working. The third was to determine the priorities of the next step." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got some questions now from Hefin David on neurodevelopmental services Hefin David AM: I think Chair I should have declared an interest here as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly We are seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals and that will increase further in the future Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we are going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? Carol Shillabeer: Thank you They are very big questions in terms of why I am not sure that anyone really knows why if I am honest although there is a lot of academic research going on What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through So in the information provided I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England which indicates that about 55 per cent of two to fouryearolds have a mental disorder Now that sounds a bit shocking when we say that but that is in the international classification scaling and of that certainly 25 per cent is around autism I can just testify in real life that demand is absolutely growing So if I just take my own health board for a moment we usually have about 75 referrals per year Last year we had 300 So that has felt very difficult to manage If I can just give you a sense of what we have done so far and then what I think is next I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that is been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme They had a standing start They have done a lot of very very good work We now have seven teams in place across Wales We now have a national pathway We now have a communityofpracticetype environment and we are really getting into this Good progress has been made More people have been seen More people have been assessed So we have made progress But I have got a long list of considerations that I think respond to your question One is that most referrals that come through the clinicians tell me are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support So that is often the reason why people come Now that is obviously going to be linked to the wholeschool approach and how we can support that Demand is outstripping supply So our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up So if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year we are looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families but also then to understand what the longterm trajectory is going to be Because we have put these teams in because we have got the new pathway has that opened a gate and we have got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ? Hefin David AM: Can I just ask a question there ? So with regard to the 75 to 300 increase—in the space of a year was that ? Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? Carol Shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more and just to say that in my— Hefin David AM: But not on that scale Carol Shillabeer: No not on that scale And in my own health board—I am just referring to my own and I am happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place So it was not as if we had nothing in place previously We had a NICEcompliant service already in place but we knew we needed to expand that which we have done but we did not anticipate 300 So this is happening not just across Wales actually but across the UK—so this greater recognition the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route which is really important What I would also say and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support So we have got a lot of people who are under that threshold but that is a lot of people who still need help and support I am trying to very fairly and I hope appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme We have got to tackle all of that It is not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold because there are needs elsewhere as well and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support Some of that overlaps with learning disability services Can I just mention a few more things as I am on roll on neurodevelopmental ? Hefin David AM: It is up to the Chair Carol Shillabeer: Is that all right ? Sorry I know it is a very long answer There is a concern from the neurodevelopmental group to get across that whilst there has been a lot of focus on autism—and we recognise the private Members Bill—there are other neurodevelopmental presentations and there is a real— Having the broadest view would be advised by them and I think they are particularly keen to understand what a future vision and what we call say a perfect world would look like That is the piece of work that we are wanting to do now In terms of giving advice at the end of the programme and into legacy arrangements about what the big big things are we are still needing to tackle Hefin David AM: I mean I personally took a very personal decision when it came to the Members Bill on autism you were talking about—and that was the advice I received You need to look at the wider symptoms that are presented beyond autism and other neurological conditions So I am glad you said that because it gives me— Because I did not vote for that Bill and I am glad you said that because it gives me some personal reassurance there But what I do have concerns about is if the increase was not anticipated to the extent that it was and that the Together for Children and Young People programme has a duty to review capacity after October who is going to make sure that that capacitys reviewed on a strategic basis ? Carol Shillabeer: So I should have probably added in that we have got a piece of work under way at the moment—Welsh Government commissioned it—by a person called Patrick Holton and he is specifically looking at the demands on capacity in relation to neurodevelopmental I think getting that slightly more independent view of what we think the trends are going to be over the long term will mean we can plan for the long term We know that moneys been put into this and it has had an important impact but we now need to be planning for the next three five 10 and many years beyond that There is the integrated autism service I think there are some conversations when I talk about the landscape being quite busy about the sense of where this links as we support people through their lives with a neurodevelopmental issue So it is not just about a childhood thing as people move through we have got to get much better at that longterm planning So that piece of work is really important We will get the report of that over the next couple of months in order for this sort of perfectworld picture that we want to try to describe to be informed by that It also connects to the early help and enhanced support because recognising if we just say half of the people who come for an assessment do not meet a threshold for a certain category that is a lot of people who will need help and support to manage and cope with their condition and their situation","In terms of an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals, Hefin David wanted to know its reasons and measures. Carol Shillabeer responded with no specific idea for the reasons and an introduction of delivery progression for the measures. Being asked, Carol then talked about a broader view of group work, mentioning the limitation of threshold and focused conditions." "Hefin David AM: I think Chair I should have declared an interest here as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly We are seeing an increase in neurodevelopmental referrals and that will increase further in the future Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we are going to meet capacity to deliver and for support for those children ? Carol Shillabeer: Thank you They are very big questions in terms of why I am not sure that anyone really knows why if I am honest although there is a lot of academic research going on What we do know is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through So in the information provided I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England which indicates that about 55 per cent of two to fouryearolds have a mental disorder Now that sounds a bit shocking when we say that but that is in the international classification scaling and of that certainly 25 per cent is around autism I can just testify in real life that demand is absolutely growing So if I just take my own health board for a moment we usually have about 75 referrals per year Last year we had 300 So that has felt very difficult to manage If I can just give you a sense of what we have done so far and then what I think is next I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that is been established on neurodevelopmental issues under the programme They had a standing start They have done a lot of very very good work We now have seven teams in place across Wales We now have a national pathway We now have a communityofpracticetype environment and we are really getting into this Good progress has been made More people have been seen More people have been assessed So we have made progress But I have got a long list of considerations that I think respond to your question One is that most referrals that come through the clinicians tell me are seeking support to move through what they perceive to be a gateway for educational support So that is often the reason why people come Now that is obviously going to be linked to the wholeschool approach and how we can support that Demand is outstripping supply So our clinical teams are concerned about how do they keep up So if I just take my own example of 300 in the last year we are looking to try and put some additional capacity in to support seeing those families but also then to understand what the longterm trajectory is going to be Because we have put these teams in because we have got the new pathway has that opened a gate and we have got a lot of backlog or is that the pattern ?","Carol Shillabeer introduced Dr. Cath Norton and his group which had a standing start in addressing neurodevelopmental issues under the programme. There had been seven teams across Wales, a national pathway, and a community-of-practice-type environment." "Hefin David AM: Did you anticipate that or was that something that just came totally unexpected ? Carol Shillabeer: I think we anticipated a few more and just to say that in my— Hefin David AM: But not on that scale Carol Shillabeer: No not on that scale And in my own health board—I am just referring to my own and I am happy to share the information on this—we already had a service in place So it was not as if we had nothing in place previously We had a NICEcompliant service already in place but we knew we needed to expand that which we have done but we did not anticipate 300 So this is happening not just across Wales actually but across the UK—so this greater recognition the desire for families coming forward to access that support and them seeing this as a route which is really important What I would also say and this is part of the bigger picture that we need to consider going forward is that only about 40 per cent to 50 per cent of those families that come forward have what I would call or the clinicians would call a diagnosis—so a threshold or whatever term you want to use that takes people through to that educational support So we have got a lot of people who are under that threshold but that is a lot of people who still need help and support I am trying to very fairly and I hope appropriately represent the very strong views coming from the group—the workstream under the programme We have got to tackle all of that It is not going to be good enough for us just to focus our attention on those children and young people and their families who reach a threshold because there are needs elsewhere as well and some of that will overlap with the early help and enhanced support Some of that overlaps with learning disability services Can I just mention a few more things as I am on roll on neurodevelopmental ?","There would be only 40 per cent to 50 per cent of families met a threshold for the support, while more people still needed help. Therefore, focusing on the families who reached a threshold is not good enough, and the programme should tackle all of them." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you If we can just move on now to inpatient care and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS inpatient care particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard Carol Shillabeer: Yes thank you very much for that question Again quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around inpatients and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units I think certainly there is some recovery in the position in north Wales and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales which I think was very helpful In terms of where the programme has been on this issue there is some work under way at quite an advanced stage around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you are in a position where actually thereve been some restrictions to then ask the service to think about going even further but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce get the right environment et cetera et cetera—so that piece of work the review of the specification about what could be possible Clearly we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner so we do not commission that We neither performance manage those environments But if I can just say probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children We believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings We have not got that mature approach in terms of these being joinedup teams we have got social care and we have got healthcare There is a growing appetite to do something different There is a meeting with the childrens commissioner on 9 July to explore that I have previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales for example and we have now got I think a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future We also know that thereve been some highprofile legal cases as well So we have got to move to that step now It has been largely successful the work that has taken place over recent years but not without its key challenges Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you And just briefly on the new specification that WHSSC are developing that will enable admissions at weekends and out of hours How concerned should we be about that being a challenge particularly in Abergele where staffing has been a major issue ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes I think we need to be very mindful of ensuring that the right workforce are in place before that gets implemented The peer review highlighted the challenge of the physical environment where the unit is the challenge across north Wales of the workforce These are issues well known by the health board by the way so it was not a surprise to them But that dialogue about how do we ensure that we have got the right workforce because that unit potentially could—you know it is an isolated unit and they have been riskmanaging They have been managing the types of young people that they can take bearing in mind the workforce that they have got available and that is been entirely the right thing to do But the downside of that is it is not as accessible as we would want Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Hefin David has got some questions on workforce now Hefin David AM: Yes With regard to the increased CAMHS posts that have been made available between 2016 and 2018—a 62 per cent increase in CAMHS posts—we know that there is likely to be labour market demand high labour market demand in those instances so are the vacancy rates higher in Wales than elsewhere given the increase in those posts to be filled ? Carol Shillabeer: So you are absolutely right There is been quite a lot of investment and there have been quite a lot of new recruits coming to the service We had in the early days a situation where we were largely robbing Peter to pay Paul to be quite frank So as new services were being developed people would move from one part of the system to the other So in the early days there was little net gain That has improved slightly but we are in a national context particularly around nursing and around some specialties in medicine of a national shortage so this is not a quick fix We are starting to see a greater diversity of workforce So if I can mention psychology assistants for example my own health board is employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team rather than going to where we might have been more traditionally based We see some of that through the NHS benchmarking particularly with England They have more of that We are perhaps a little bit— They have more skill mix in their workforce We are catching up a bit more on that now Hefin David AM: Just to clarify there what you are referring to—there are more nursing and medical staff in the Wales system and more psychological staff experts in the UK picture Is that— ? Carol Shillabeer: In the England picture So England had a programme called IAPT which is about psychological therapies and had therefore looked at the skill mix Some of that was— We have chatted to colleagues in England trying to learn—we are all trying to make improvements in this area of course it is a UK and international issue—what were their experiences of this psychological therapies approach Because of their vacancies they had to skill mix and because of the money that they had available—they did not have as much of a cash injection as perhaps we have been able to secure So they skill mixed much earlier we are skill mixing now We are using different types of roles for example And if I can just make a plea really around recognising the input of the third sector—so it does not always have to be an NHSemployed person to work in service provision direct frontline service provision and the third sector are offering a significant contribution in a number of areas of our services And that is one that we will need to cultivate because to be quite frank our recruitment challenges will not be solved overnight We have recognised that the commissioning numbers for nursing and other professionals have gone up over recent times but with the training time it is not a quick fix Hefin David AM: Does the workforce profile remain different or are they starting to— ? Carol Shillabeer: They are starting to come together There is a—graph 13 in terms of the CAMHS profile Each year we do the NHS benchmarking and we can see where we are compared to others and I would expect over the next year or two that we see a bit more narrowing Hefin David AM: So if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who is been through this would they have had a different experience as a result and different clinical advice as a result or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? Carol Shillabeer: That is quite a big question Hand on heart could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that ? No I could not The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance so it is pretty much guided We would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to NICE guidance When you skill mix a team you enable the right referrals to go to the right person so you would not necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs So it does— And we have seen some of that if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that is been developed a multiagency panel come together a referral comes in it is then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented So we can be much more flexible in relation to that and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person because if we have got a resource that is highly specialist we want them to be dealing with those children and young people Hefin David AM: And one of the things you are able to do—because there is a lot about the labour market you can not control but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development You have mentioned communities of practice What other things are being done in addition and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? Carol Shillabeer: Thank you for that So there is a couple of things around— I think there is a huge focus on staff retention now not just in Wales but across the UK So we have got recruitment but we have got retention What are the factors that affect retention ? Actually wellbeing wellbeing at work—and you will know that within A Healthier Wales the focus on staff engagement staff wellbeing has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services and then as you rightly say training and development and career opportunities So the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well I think the community of practice—it is something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit doing collective reflection on service improvement and being very clear about learning from one another And if you are a clinician that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward So I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate Hefin David AM: What about the Welsh language in the health board ? Carol Shillabeer: Thank you very much There are two elements if I may just on that In your report of last year you highlighted the need to do further work on the use of the Welsh language and have we got enough Welsh language practitioners where we need them We are doing that piece of work I am pleased to say that over the last few years I think all health boards have really stepped up in terms of being able to understand the levels of Welsh speaking amongst employed staff and where their Welshspeaking communities are We are particularly looking at it in terms of inpatient CAMHS and community intensive services because particularly when people are feeling at their most vulnerable they would choose the language they wish to choose So we know we need to respond to that So we will be in a position to by the end of this programme provide that position statement on what happens next I would also say of course we have got the Welsh language standards that we are all working on at the moment and we have got a very clear programme of when we have to be compliant with those standards So that element is very high on the priority list","Carol Shillabeer answered Lynne Neagle's question by introducing the progress of the in-patient care programme and the challenge of the workforce. Carol personally recommended employing more psychology assistants as part of a skill mix team and indicated communities of practice to make the best use of the resource. Finally, as for the language, there was an agreement on the use of the Welsh language and the need for enough Welsh language practitioners to respond to vulnerable people." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you If we can just move on now to inpatient care and if I can just ask you what the programme has been doing to address some of the challenges and opportunities we face in terms of CAMHS inpatient care particularly in light of the restrictions that are in place in Abergele and Tŷ Llidiard Carol Shillabeer: Yes thank you very much for that question Again quite a lot of progress has been made in the early part of the programme around inpatients and you are very well aware of the challenges over the last year or 18 months in relation to both units I think certainly there is some recovery in the position in north Wales and the programme did a peer review visit to north Wales which I think was very helpful In terms of where the programme has been on this issue there is some work under way at quite an advanced stage around the art of the possible around enhancing the scope of the services This was quite a tricky thing to start off when you are in a position where actually thereve been some restrictions to then ask the service to think about going even further but we really wanted to see what the art of the possible would be if we could attract the right workforce get the right environment et cetera et cetera—so that piece of work the review of the specification about what could be possible Clearly we work very closely with Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee as the commissioner so we do not commission that We neither performance manage those environments But if I can just say probably the most important part of moving forward now is the longer term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined up approach for children We believe there would probably be about 100 children who have experienced care in multiple settings We have not got that mature approach in terms of these being joinedup teams we have got social care and we have got healthcare There is a growing appetite to do something different There is a meeting with the childrens commissioner on 9 July to explore that I have previously had conversations with the chief inspector of Care Inspectorate Wales for example and we have now got I think a consensus growing that we need to do something very different for children and young people who are in this sort of need for the future We also know that thereve been some highprofile legal cases as well So we have got to move to that step now It has been largely successful the work that has taken place over recent years but not without its key challenges",The most important at that time was the long-term work between health and social care in terms of having a much more integrated and joined-up approach for children. "Hefin David AM: So if you compare a child in Wales with a child in England in the last two years who is been through this would they have had a different experience as a result and different clinical advice as a result or is there consistency despite the difference in workforce profile ? Carol Shillabeer: That is quite a big question Hand on heart could I tell you I absolutely know the detail of that ? No I could not The practice in this area is guided by National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance so it is pretty much guided We would expect all of our practitioners to be able to work to NICE guidance When you skill mix a team you enable the right referrals to go to the right person so you would not necessarily have a child or young person with particularly complex needs—well you would match them to the right practitioner for their needs So it does— And we have seen some of that if I just make reference to the panel approach in Gwent that is been developed a multiagency panel come together a referral comes in it is then about matching the right service and the right person to the needs that are being presented So we can be much more flexible in relation to that and we have to be careful to use the right resource for the right person because if we have got a resource that is highly specialist we want them to be dealing with those children and young people Hefin David AM: And one of the things you are able to do—because there is a lot about the labour market you can not control but one of the things you can control is workforce development and ongoing workforce development You have mentioned communities of practice What other things are being done in addition and how do the communities of practice work might be a good question but what else is being done in order to upskill and develop and grow the existing workforce that is presented to you ? Carol Shillabeer: Thank you for that So there is a couple of things around— I think there is a huge focus on staff retention now not just in Wales but across the UK So we have got recruitment but we have got retention What are the factors that affect retention ? Actually wellbeing wellbeing at work—and you will know that within A Healthier Wales the focus on staff engagement staff wellbeing has been laid out—the ability to work well in teams and the culture of organisations and services and then as you rightly say training and development and career opportunities So the developments over the last few years have brought training opportunities and career development opportunities as well I think the community of practice—it is something that has become a bit of a standard now across these areas—actually brings people together doing collective audit doing collective reflection on service improvement and being very clear about learning from one another And if you are a clinician that gives you a lot of motivation to keep driving forward So I think we have the fundamental building blocks in place but there is more to do around the environment in which our practitioners and our staff operate","The practice was guided by the Nation Institute for Health and Care, enabling referrals to match the right practitioner and the right service. It is expected to be more flexible and careful to use the resource. Overall, the community had gradually become standard, doing a collective reflection on service improvement and being clear about mutual learning, but the environment operated still waited to be improved." "Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn has a question on transition Dawn Bowden AM: Yes Thank you Chair We have heard not necessarily just in the context of this report because we have heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention and I have in fact only recently—well just this week actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services Now I know we had the— The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now and the programme was involved in developing that guidance But what is your assessment of the impact that it is had ? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps are not we ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes thank you for that You are absolutely right we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that And in particular I know that the childrens commissioner is very focused on transition not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support but children in paediatric wards and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this The childrens commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say Well if this works this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere But the big question there is if So we do want to get evaluation If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land I think it will have made improvements but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing supporting auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance So I talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make then a mandatory audit each year that we do that double check ? Because it is one of those things where we know when a child is 14 15 16 17 so what is stopping us ? If indeed the evaluation says it is not happening everywhere it is not happening early enough what is stopping us ? We really need to get underneath that So my sense will be it will show us it will be better but there is some further work to do and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we have got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have not had the guidance fully implemented because it can make a real difference Dawn Bowden AM: Yes and it seems to me—you have just talked about having a systematic approach and it does seem to me that it is a systematic process is not it ? So it should not be difficult I know we are talking about in the health service things should not be difficult and they are and one of the gripes—I had a meeting with the community health team—was the problems of the new IT systems and so on—let us not go there at the moment But really this is just about referring children and having a smooth transition from the service being provided to them as a child and then just shifting it over to the adult services It should not be difficult It is really difficult to get my head around why that is such a problem and why that needs to be so difficult Carol Shillabeer: Can I add one other dimension in which I think is going to be quite interesting ? We talk about transitions being an issue—and we know it is not just in mental health but it is elsewhere—then you start to think What if we could reduce transitions ? so you reduce the number of transitions and you manage them better We are doing a piece of work with Government on the potential to explore what a 025type service would be We know that in different places they have approached that—in Australia and places in the UK There are probably some pros and cons but should we be moving to a 025 That is moving the transition at the age of 25 but at least it is not at the eighteenth birthday What is the argument around what adolescent young people and young adults services are for example ? That piece of research and understanding— Dawn Bowden AM: You could probably have a gradual transition then could not you ? Carol Shillabeer: Quite potentially I have got some people who have joined my own health board who have worked in that 025type service and we are catching up—Tell me what was good about it ? Tell me what was not so good about it ? What did the young people themselves think about that ? Because if we can manage down the numbers of transitions there really should be no excuse not to get transitions right then Dawn Bowden AM: thank you Thank you Chair","Carol Shillabeer answered a question from Suzy Davies, indicating the intersection between the Together for Children and Young People programme and the Outcomes for Children Group programme. Next, in response to Dawn Bowden, Shillabeer talked about the development of transition guidance and the endeavor to reduce the numbers of transitions and manage them better." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Suzy Davies has a question about lookedafter children Suzy Davies AM: Yes Thank you Chair Obviously everything you have been speaking about already particularly about workforce development applies to children in care as well where there is other work also going on in terms of support Can you give us some indication about how the programme intersects then with the outcomes for the children in care work programme ? Carol Shillabeer: Thanks very much for that So we have one of our members of the programme board also sitting on the outcomes for children ministerial group which is good So we have got that crosslink We also have a director of social services on our programme board and obviously they are very clearly linked in to the outcomes for children I just made reference to under the question on specialist CAMHS inpatients the need to bring those services together and that really is the need for much stronger working between the outcomes for children group and the Together for Children and Young People programme and the constituent parts So I am confident that that has been pegged now We have got a way forward and there is a consensus that we need to do things together on that","First, there was a close link between each member. Second, in terms of the question of specialist CAMHS in-patients, there was a need to bring the services together for stronger working." "Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn has a question on transition Dawn Bowden AM: Yes Thank you Chair We have heard not necessarily just in the context of this report because we have heard similar evidence around transition arrangements in another committee report when we did the suicide prevention and I have in fact only recently—well just this week actually—met with community mental health teams in my constituency and there is still some concern about transitional arrangements from children into adult services Now I know we had the— The transition guidance was published a couple of years ago now and the programme was involved in developing that guidance But what is your assessment of the impact that it is had ? Because we clearly are still seeing people falling through the gaps are not we ? Carol Shillabeer: Yes thank you for that You are absolutely right we developed that guidance and we are currently in the process of the evaluation of that And in particular I know that the childrens commissioner is very focused on transition not just around children in receipt of emotional mental health support but children in paediatric wards and there is a working group with Welsh Government looking at this The childrens commissioner has used our guidance to put that on the table to say Well if this works this needs to be considered as a model for using elsewhere But the big question there is if So we do want to get evaluation If I were just to give an estimate of where I think this will land I think it will have made improvements but there may well be some further work to do in enhancing supporting auditing that every child is supported in line with that guidance So I talked about community practice and clinical audit : is this something that we make then a mandatory audit each year that we do that double check ? Because it is one of those things where we know when a child is 14 15 16 17 so what is stopping us ? If indeed the evaluation says it is not happening everywhere it is not happening early enough what is stopping us ? We really need to get underneath that So my sense will be it will show us it will be better but there is some further work to do and following that up in terms of audit and making sure that we have got a systematic approach to dealing with those who have not had the guidance fully implemented because it can make a real difference","The guidance was developed and the programme was in the process of evaluation. However, there was still further work to do in terms of audit, making sure to get a systematic approach to deal with those who hadn't had the guidance fully implemented." "User Interface: So so here is a look inside your really oldlooking remote control you have got a printed a printed circuit board here and you have got all these buttons which kind of press down little rubber nubbies into these little holes that activate Project Manager: We have all broke a remote control ri s User Interface: we have all broken a remote control So you have also got you have got your chip here your batteries here and some sorta electronics Marketing: I just love you tech guys huh Industrial Designer: there is a thingy and a dingy and Project Manager: You press this and it does th User Interface: so you have got here is here is a transistor and this amplifies your signal you have got the LED here on the end of the on the end of the printed circuit board you have got a couple diodes here for I do not know who and whatnot Project Manager: I do not know who and whatnot User Interface: So we have got a i in this in this drawing he in this example here this is a eighteen pin chip I do not know it is two double A batteries This is pretty standard remote So here are options for our power sources You can use a basic battery which we have already discussed th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that Industrial Designer: I want to change that User Interface: I do not know if that is really Marketing: I I got to I got to flashlight and User Interface: I do not know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so Marketing: but it is interesting because you shake it like this User Interface: So that is the next bullet is the the kinetic provision of energy Marketing: And that is on the camera User Interface: so it is like that flashlight where you have to shake it we have got solar cells which I do not think is a very good idea because you could not use your remote at night which does not make a lot of sense And finally we have got our cradle o our power cradle idea Project Manager: so we basically have battery versus cradle here ? User Interface: M battery versus cradle I think is Project Manager: So we have battery versus cradle Marketing: I g I I figured you would Yes Project Manager: It is actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty just to be actually serious for a minute here User Interface: Well it is it is more I mean it is more ecofriendly than the than the cradle because you are still using power off the grid with the cradle So our case design We have choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do Our material choices are a plastic latex ty or plastic a rubber latex type thing wood or titanium If we go with titanium we are going to be limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it is tough to shape the titanium and pers Project Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche would not it User Interface: I I can not see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote it is just antitechnology really you know Marketing: to me in a marketing sense it is not it is not relative We can we can o we can accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it User Interface: And what we may be able to do and I think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner she will with a like a rubber outer she will to make it to mak like a thick plastic inner she will and a t kind of a to have that rubber outer she will to make it more durable and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic Project Manager: Kay Do you get a good grip on the rubber ? Marketing: And if you make it from that super rubber when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand You do not even need to lean down to get it User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we will have a lot more options just in terms of shape because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want So and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber so But basically these are curved and doublecurved I I believe that the tech department in their in their message to me that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom I have no idea exactly what they are talking about but that is what they told me uncurved flat curved or doublecurved I would guess this like this pen would be kind of like a doublecurved where it is curved on m m multiple axes right ? I think curved means just curved in one axis and doublecurved is curved in two axes or surfaces I have no idea Project Manager: I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a Marketing: Mmhmm that is that is what I see User Interface: Oh oh like a wave Marketing: that is what I see also User Interface: Alright that makes sense with the interface we have the following options we can you we can use push buttons we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button and LCD display or multiple scrolling wheels so these are all options that the user interface guy can has at his disposal to put together a user interface For electronics we have these very technical descriptions here A simple chip which is the least expensive but I have no numbers to give you a regular chip which is like the medium porridge the medium expense Project Manager: D do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ? User Interface: Yes the difference is with a simple chip a simple chip will operate oh why does not this scroll up ? Previous previous A simple chip is required to operate push buttons an advanced chip is required to to operate the LCD display and it did not say specifically but I I have a hunch that a regular chip is going to be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels Project Manager: that makes sense So presentation from I guess design would go best Next User Interface: That is the end of my presentation Project Manager: Technical functions or interface concept ? Yes but it has your name on it","The group decided to produce a mid-sized remote control with a printed circuit board, a medium chip, a transistor, a scroll wheel, a power cradle, a locator, a radio transmitter, an antenna, a speaker, double curves, some LEDs and some buttons. The casing material would be a combination of rubber and plastic." "User Interface: our case design We have choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do Our material choices are a plastic latex ty or plastic a rubber latex type thing wood or titanium If we go with titanium we are going to be limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it is tough to shape the titanium and pers Project Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche would not it User Interface: I I can not see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote it is just antitechnology really you know Marketing: to me in a marketing sense it is not it is not relative We can we can o we can accentuate whatever whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it User Interface: And what we may be able to do and I think this might be the best option is to combine some a couple of these my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner she will with a like a rubber outer she will to make it to mak like a thick plastic inner she will and a t kind of a to have that rubber outer she will to make it more durable and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic Project Manager: Kay Do you get a good grip on the rubber ? Marketing: And if you make it from that super rubber when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand You do not even need to lean down to get it User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is w we we will have a lot more options just in terms of shape because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want So and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber so","The user interface designer pointed out that if they were to go with titanium, there would be limitations in the amount of shapes because it was tough to shape the titanium. Also, wood was not suitable as it seemed anti-technology. Thus, the user interface designer recommended making a thick plastic inner shell and a rubber outer shell which was more durable and felt better." "User Interface: Well my question is what would the scroll wheel do ? Functionwise what does that do that Project Manager: Oh but that was in your presentation so wh what would you imagine it doing ? Marketing: wh wh what is the wh User Interface: Well it is it is just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do Marketing: now what I see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons So from a marketing standpoint I have I have another door to walk through when we have something that is unique If it creates something more complex or more expensive then I do not know if that makes it a marketing necessity But again from a marketing perspective I want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we are we are co it is a very competitive market Project Manager: What I understand about scroll wheels is they are they are quite expensive to to make User Interface: Th they are going to be more expensive but on the other hand I mean it I mean it is an alternative if if you think that is going to sell some some you know if if we are going to make up the extra cost by extra sales I think maybe it is worth it to do it but I mean I would just use if I was going to do this I would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down I do not think volume or do you think volume would be Industrial Designer: I do not know I will bet first in volume maybe I do not know User Interface: No we can we can do multiple scroll wheels but","When everybody was using buttons, a scroll wheel would be new and different, which might push somebody over the edge when they were looking at the new controller versus something else. Plus, many people today were television surfers, and the scroll was a great mechanism for surfing. But there were two problems with the scroll wheel. On one hand, it broke down easily and would bring down the robustness of the whole product. On the other hand, users had to scroll really slowly to keep in pace with the TV's ability to change channels, which would be frustrating." "Industrial Designer: Well that does not bo bode well for it for it tats as well so somehow that things too big but our manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition They say they could put it to work but we do not think so No It it it you will be you know be affected by the by the other speech and User Interface: If the TV is working That is just I mean it will if somebody says up in the middle of a television show it is going to change the channel Industrial Designer: and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore and I think that is one of the things we want to keep Project Manager: But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? So if you pressed it and went up ? Industrial Designer: That kind of would r d User Interface: Well then why do not you just press the up button ? Industrial Designer: That would kind of lose it Project Manager: But if it is just one thing with a button that you can just go Up User Interface: Even still there is going to be interf th there is there still will be interference from the TV It might not be it might not be completely confusing but I think you will still y it is still I do not think it is practical at all I think it is a bad idea frankly Industrial Designer: so taking that away our the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable Project Manager: You guys know your stuff Industrial Designer: it is the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls as for the point that we making about losing it Well we want to small r remote control one side because we want it to be cool and designed but apparently market shows that bigger s bigger remotes get less lost","The main topics in the discussion about functional design were the functions of speech recognition and rolling through the user's favourite channels. The former was abandoned because it would be disturbed by other sounds, while the latter was adopted by the group for its novelty and feasibility." "Industrial Designer: Well that does not bo bode well for it for it tats as well so somehow that things too big but our manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition They say they could put it to work but we do not think so No It it it you will be you know be affected by the by the other speech and User Interface: If the TV is working That is just I mean it will if somebody says up in the middle of a television show it is going to change the channel Industrial Designer: and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore and I think that is one of the things we want to keep Project Manager: But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize ? So if you pressed it and went up ? Industrial Designer: That kind of would r d User Interface: Well then why do not you just press the up button ? Industrial Designer: That would kind of lose it Project Manager: But if it is just one thing with a button that you can just go Up User Interface: Even still there is going to be interf th there is there still will be interference from the TV It might not be it might not be completely confusing but I think you will still y it is still I do not think it is practical at all I think it is a bad idea frankly Industrial Designer: so taking that away our the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable Project Manager: You guys know your stuff","The industrial designer and the user interface designer didn't think speech recognition was practical because it would surely be affected by other sounds if the TV was on or people spoke up in the middle of a TV show. Then the project manager proposed to design a button to activate the recognition, but there would be no difference with controlling the TV by just pressing buttons." "Marketing: So ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system ? You understand what I am saying ? User Interface: I think I know what you might be getting at or or Project Manager: Oh I see so if maybe if we had an LCD up the top that just did a number on it right ? And then it that basically Marketing: Oh no we could read it from the television User Interface: Well what about this what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels Project Manager: Mm Well that is quite cool You would need a display on the th the thing User Interface: Why ? It will tell you when you flip the channel on the TV Marketing: the the television can tell you Project Manager: Oh no I see what you are talking about that is kind of cool How would you program it though ? User Interface: Well you just it is one extra button You say programme start and then type in because you still have the typing you know you will still have the keypad where you can type them in manually So programme start zero one enter zero five enter thirty eight enter programme end Project Manager: and that just basically flips between it and it will go it sends out zero five and then thirty six and then zero one again that is kind of cool I like that Marketing: And again we have another another great marketing tool We have about three we have three or four things here Project Manager: That is not going to be too expensive because that is going to be you are going to be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really You could basically come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply Marketing: I do not know and an maybe we maybe even have this as inhouse technology This may be something that is available through our own through our own services Project Manager: Might be but tha that is not going to be such a costly feature The problem we are going to have is making it robust Making it last User Interface: Oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one up two Marketing: Or we go directional up we go we go this we go this we go this way for one we go this way for the other Project Manager: So if there is a button for each type User Interface: No because you want to be able to go up and down through the channels Project Manager: people are going to have their favourite sorta whether they do that or whether they Marketing: well then you just have you have a different you have a mode switch User Interface: I think we will need a we will need a mode switch but then if we have a mode switch we are going to need some kind of indicator Project Manager: Just the lights behind the buttons User Interface: to which an LE an LED Project Manager: You could have backlit buttons maybe we have five minutes So right details th that we have talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel We want a mode indicator We want backlit buttons And if we are making backlit buttons period do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you are pressing at the time so that you know if it is actually pressed or not I have seen some remotes do that","According to the user interface designer, to implement this function, the users should press a button to start the program and type in their favourite channels. The project manager liked this idea and the marketing thought it would be another great market tool. In terms of the cost, the project manager believed it wouldn't be too expensive because they could come up with a partnership to produce that quite cheaply, but the marketing held that the technology was available through their own service. Furthermore, this function must be accompanied by a mode switch and an indicator." "User Interface: Just so you know I think I mean it was my understanding that before we were going to stay in the midmarket range It seems we are kind of approaching a higherend range I want to make sure everybodys with that Marketing: Well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this Project Manager: well we do not have it is not that we have more money Marketing: Did not you say so ? Project Manager: we can push up the the price Marketing: That is what I mean We can increase the cost So I do not know I do not know whether having User Interface: I just want to make sure everybodys on board with it So Project Manager: So we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to though we have not got to a stage where we are ready to pin down the price of components But I would say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that and what sorta price can we make it for ? Marketing: Well I think th I think the design and technology has to come back and say to create this product we see it is going to cost us this much for this volume because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit Project Manager: no I I think that is where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting our management is really looking for us to push our brand We are entering a new market here so I think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to Marketing: I am I am with that I guess what I just want to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached and then we have to take this to the next level Project Manager: But th what is our ballpark as to what we would be able to sell something like this for ? User Interface: Well y Let us let us try and think now how much would you pay for Marketing: We have to find cost User Interface: with all these features how much would you pay if you went to the store and you were in the market f to replace your TV remote how much would you pay for that ? Project Manager: But you have got to think who our target market is because I I am not our target market User Interface: I am just asking you Project Manager: I am a student but on the other hand I would think mm with my Project Manager salary I would think I could probably afford this User Interface: Then you could probably afford this Project Manager: would I buy it ? Maybe If I had a cool new TV and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel which I thinks a really cool idea that would sell me on it a little Then maybe you know I do I do not think I would go over a hundred Euro certainly that would be way too much but the I would be happy paying over forty for it I guess but not much User Interface: I would say thirty five to forty Marketing: I was going to say thirty five to fifty Project Manager: Kay Thirty five to fifty Euros is our sales bracket So the question is what we ca we make it for Marketing: Because one of th one of the things we are marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television It is one of the marketing features in this Project Manager: That is why the scroll needs to be really robust","After discussing the functions, the group thought they were approaching the high-end market, so they could push up the price. In spite of that, the project manager supposed the profit expectation might not be so important as opening up a new market and promoting their brand. In the end, they agreed to price the product at thirty-five to fifty Euros." User Interface: it is pretty exciting So everything that we wanted we wanted it to be ergonomic and to be made out of rubber very simple and easy to use but also something that was going to jump out at people something that would be different separate it from the other remotes out on the market So I think if you put this in the palm of your hand you will see what a nice thing we have going here,"The double curved prototype with anti-RSI buttons was ergonomic and comfortable to the size of the hand and to touch as it was made of rubber. The prototype was also easy and convenient to use as the important keys were right at the fingers. On the other hand, it brought fashion to electronics as the remote was offered in colours of black, yellow, blue and red, which contained fruit and vegetable elements. It was innovative and looked different so it would stand out from other remotes in the market." "User Interface: So basically if you hold it like that the one on your thumb the thumb button is the power button Your index finger is channel up middle finger is channel down ring finger is volume up your pinkie is volume down Marketing: What is the big blue thing ? User Interface: That is the lock button has a L L on it and then the M is a mute button And then it also has digit Project Manager: what button ? Oh mute User Interface: and then then you can also there is a numeric keypad on the top so you can key directly to the to the channel if you want","The button to the thumb was the power button, the index and middle finger were channels up and down, whereas the ring finger and pinkie were volumes up and down. The blue button with the inscription of ""L"" was to lock, whereas the one with ""M"" was to mute. Moreover, a numeric keypad was on the top so users could directly key to a channel." "Project Manager: I have one thing about it but it is a small thing but it would mean we would have to make a righthanded one and a lefthanded one User Interface: Ah that is good thinking Project Manager: But that is I do not see why that is not possible User Interface: if we build rocket ships why can not we build lefthanded and righthanded remotes Project Manager: They make lefthanded scissors you know User Interface: I did not I did not think about that but I would Marketing: but then but then you can learn to use your right h like I was just thinking if there is lefthanders and righthanders in the family what they have two remotes ? Industrial Designer: I know I know people who have lefthanded and righthanded people in the family and they all use the computer for the whole the same computer the fes family and they have a mouse and everybody is using righthanded mouse Marketing: I am sure they will be able to I mean it is only pressing buttons you do not have to do anything you know extraordinary I think everybody can press a button with their left and right hand so Industrial Designer: Imagine d are you right handed ? Imagine you are doing it with your left hand I do not think it is too But we can have both Marketing: Make them more appealing as well","Industrial Designer recalled that some acquaintances have left- and right-handed people in the family but they all use the right-handed mouse for the computer. Marketing added that the remote only required pressing buttons and it would not be too hard. However, in the end, they agreed to have both in stock to make them more appealing." "Project Manager: Thank you One thing I do need to do we need to look at is the costs User Interface: The costs was that what you said ? Marketing: PlayDoh will not last very long everybodyll go like oops it is gone Well they will buy more of them if you eat them User Interface: That was the main criteria from the last meeting it had to be chew proof Project Manager: right now I think we will do this I could do you know I can do this o on my own or I could do it with you but it is just easy enough to go through it with you so we are going for the kinetic power And the electronics we decided on it being just a simple the easiest thing that is inside it Ooh So the case we have gone for the double curved and it is made out of rubber The interface is pushbuttons And button supplements well they are in different special colours are not they ? Special form they are a special form there in shapes and stuff User Interface: I mean these these ones on the side are curved kind of so Project Manager: Yep Are they made out of any special material ? No they are not They are not made out of wood or titanium or rubber or anything they are just simple Marketing: Well they are rubber are not they ? Project Manager: So let us see if that comes within budget And it does That is going to cost That is going to cost ten ten Euro seventy cents a unit to make And our target was it had to come in at under twelve fifty User Interface: And we are actua actually making a better profit than we expected Project Manager: this is all very very good The bosses will be very pleased","Play-Doh would be used as it was very cheap, edible and chew-proof. The energy source would be kinetic power and electronics would be the simplest. For the case, it would be double curved and made of rubber. The interface was push buttons and they would be in special colours and forms. Considering the cost of the above materials, the remote would be within budget as it cost ten seventy euros a unit." "Marketing: So evaluation We are going to do it all together so we evaluate each criteria I have got the criterias And we have to do it on a scale of one to seven one being true so it is it is more like it is fits the criteria and seven being as in it does not fit the criteria And the criterias are and I will draw this up on the board so we have a box And this is false this is just like to keep you informed So sevens here and ones here and then you have got in the middle So the first criteria Do you all get what we are doing ? cool first criteria look and feel So the does remote look and feel fashionable to what we talked about ? As it is it colourwise and is it spongy ? So what mark should we give for that ? Project Manager: I would give it a seven Marketing: As in it is not A one a one So I will just write criteria criteria one we get one Second criteria new technology Have we implemented new technology ? As in the new hightech User Interface: That was our main technological innovation w every everything else was fairly simple but the fact that we used the kinetic energy was new Marketing: So it is So we will give it a User Interface: but that is not that is that is a design that is a des that is a design thing Project Manager: but that is not a technological thing that is another thing i that is another marketing thing So on the technical side of it it Marketing: I would say it is about a a twoish ? User Interface: It is about in the mid in the middle somewhere maybe I do not know Marketing: three So criteria three is is it easy to use ? I think it is a one I think Project Manager: I would say it is I would not not if you are lefthanded it is not I would give it a I would give it a two because i i it i it i it is more geared for righthanded people than lefthanded people but Marketing: But if we make a righthanded and a lefthanded then ? User Interface: If we are going to have one lefthanded and one righthanded then I would give it a one but otherwise otherwise a two Project Manager: Give it a t give it a two Marketing: Kay criteria four is costs Project Manager: Cost It is come in under budget So that is a definite one Marketing: Like the amount of buttons Project Manager: Contains only the necessary buttons Marketing: because people like a lot le like So it is a one ? criteria six RSI is it good against ? It is one And criteria seven which is the last one does it get lost ? Is it easy to get lost ? Project Manager: I do not think it is going to get lost easily Marketing: No ? But it is smallish User Interface: It is not the kind of thing that is going to slip like between a couch cushion or something you know Maybe it will Marketing: Mm I think i it would could be could get lost User Interface: You think it could lost Marketing: I mean it is not fully it is not fully like you can not say I mean it is not a one definitely Project Manager: I mean you could still flush it down the toilet theoretically but User Interface: anything I mean It is bigger than the average mobile I guess But it can get lost Marketing: The mobiles get lost all the time But then you ring them and you find them So So that is that So that is the evaluation so I would say Yay","On a scale of one to seven, with one being true and seven being untrue, the remote scored a one for the look and feel unanimous. For new technology and being easy to use, it was given a mark of three and two respectively as kinetic energy was the only technological innovation and the remote was better geared for right-handed people. Next, the cost was given as it was under budget. Then, one was given for RSI and the amount of buttons as there were only necessary buttons. Finally, it scored a two for getting lost easily." "Marketing: All done thanks We fitted all the criterias So that is that one Project Manager: I I think I just want to put in as Project Manager the you know little bit of praise for everybody here for how they have worked on it you know both individually and as a team You know you have w everyone is come up with their own individual ideas in their own different departments and then come together and worked in you know integrally you know at the right times psp you know especially you two That is all you know gone very very well and and and be you know has been good communication going on User Interface: during our design I mean there was some s some heated heated discussion but we we kept we tried to keep it cool and and Project Manager: Did you have to go down to the the corporate squash court and bash a few balls about ? User Interface: We just had to we just had to squeeze our product a little bit and Now you guys have been a a great team Think we are the we are the envy of all the of all the other RR teams Project Manager: I I you know and I think we have co we have come we have come up with something new something that has not been done before we have not we are not just rehashing an old design Marketing: In four different in in four meetings Funny all designer meetings could be this quick Project Manager: You know maybe this is not a simulation maybe this is actually so it is like Sony or someone like that they are they are just they get User Interface: I think they are actually trying to find ideas for a ideal remote Marketing: They are using our ideas Project Manager: two years time this will be on the market thum we will go we designed that and noone will believe us User Interface: So at this stage I mean is this the last meeting of the project ? We do not have another one after it is gone gone to marke market or something ? Project Manager: I think when this meetings finished like officially there b we will get a questionnaire to fill in Marketing: Just start summarising now You can reply to the same message Project Manager: I have not got message Marketing: See summary there If you just reply to that one User Interface: So there is no way to like predict what our Because we had a we originally had a As far as our financial goals we had a specific number for profits that we wanted It was fifty mil fifty million Marketing: Was it was it fifty or five ? User Interface: I do not remember But there is not a way to compute that I mean since we saved on the on the production cost do we know how much we are making on profit ? Project Manager: It gets handed over to another department Marketing: Depends how much we sell Project Manager: What our what our project was was to come up with the product basically the for the and just basically is it it come can is it within budget When it c when it comes to all the other things of how to sell it and you know the b the profits and all that that is other departments it is another team that actually work out the mai the User Interface: But we have a vested interest Project Manager: oh the all the guys in the profit sharing that is it You know we have we have we have made i we have made Marketing: We finished an hour earlier Project Manager: we have designed the product we have ma we have got the prototype it is within budget it is does everything that we wanted it to do It is new it is it is something that that is not out there already User Interface: I think actually and one advantage of of this is that after the you know after this fad of fruit and vegetables passes this will still be c a cool remote you know We are not we are not you know tying tying our cart to that one horse Project Manager: Well this is very marketable in that it is it is it is something that is kind of new and looks a bit quirky for people who want that it is that it is hang on I wrote it down here somewhere Oh no I thi I put it in one of my emails that I sent off that you know it is marketable in the sense that it is whilst all these other remotes actually do give you repetitive strain injury our one does the complete opposite you know so that is something that is new which is one of the criteria they asked us to come up with something with something new User Interface: Mm It make watching TV healthy Project Manager: and if you are not having a good time with the TV you can f throw it about you know It is fine it is kid proof","The remote fits all criteria and it was something novel. Also, it was marketable in the sense that other remotes would give users repetitive strain injury but this remote would do the complete opposite. Project Manager concluded that everyone had done a great job, both individually and as a team. Though there was some heated discussion during designing the remote, the communication was still great. For the technology that had been used during meetings, Marketing thought it was quite cool." "Project Manager: right now so we are all going to draw our favourite animal and then sum up our favourite characteristics of that animal Even if you are not a good drawer like me Industrial Designer: I draw like I am in grade five Project Manager: Kay about one more minute And who would like to start us off ? Marketing: this is my picture I drew fish I like fish because you know their whole watervascular system thing It is pretty cool and they have got a pretty good habitat and they are pretty sometimes sometimes vicious but that is Project Manager: Only if they are piranhas Marketing: they they are easy you know Project Manager: Who wants to go next ? Industrial Designer: I drew a kitty It is pretty much impossible to tell that is a cat but I love cats Marketing: No I I see it Project Manager: No it looks like a cat User Interface: No I kne I knew Marketing: it does look like a cat Industrial Designer: I love cats because they are independent they pretty much know what they want they get it they move on Project Manager: I love cats too I am a cat person Marketing: I am allergic to cats Industrial Designer: I am allergic to cats too Project Manager: If you are around one I had a roommate who was allergic but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it you know Marketing: if you are around them for a long period of time Industrial Designer: I still can not sleep with them in my room Marketing: Oh this summer I oh I had to live with cats It was crazy User Interface: I do not know they are grumpy and nocturnal and Industrial Designer: Are you trying to suggest something ? User Interface: Well a little bit like the Yes And then if you know Wind in the Willows badger and then I do not know if you know Brian He is Liverpudlian writer that kind of books Badgers are cool in that one too Project Manager: And I am last Kay Look at my sad sad giraffe No no no it ends up looking like some kind of a dinosaur but whatever I do not know even much about giraffes but I just love the way they look They are just such odd creatures you know I I like that they are so unique and individual I guess I do not know much about their behaviour or anything though Only seen a couple in zoos Marketing: You do not really have to I mean if you like them Project Manager: but you can appreciate the way they look Alright Guess we are getting straight back into business here","Following the proposal of Project Manager, each of the four team members drew their favourite animals. Marketing drew fish, explaining that he/she liked their water-vascular system, habitat, and normally mild looks. Industrial Designer drew a cat for its independence and decisiveness. User Interface's choice was a badger, alluding to Wind in the Willows and Brian's books. Finally, Project Manager showed his giraffe, and talked about its uniqueness and individuality." "Marketing: I am allergic to cats Industrial Designer: I am allergic to cats too Project Manager: If you are around one I had a roommate who was allergic but if she was around my cat forever she became used to it you know Marketing: if you are around them for a long period of time Industrial Designer: I still can not sleep with them in my room Marketing: Oh this summer I oh I had to live with cats It was crazy","When both Marketing and Industrial Designer had admitted to being allergic to cats, Project Manager attempted to propose a situation where they actually were around one. After this proposal was decisively rejected by User Interface, Project Manager talked about his/her experience with a roommate, proving that one could be used to cats if they were around them for a long time. Yet Marketing and Industrial Designer insisted on the severity of their allergies." "User Interface: I do not know they are grumpy and nocturnal and Industrial Designer: Are you trying to suggest something ? User Interface: Well a little bit like the Yes And then if you know Wind in the Willows badger and then I do not know if you know Brian He is Liverpudlian writer that kind of books Badgers are cool in that one too","The animal User Interface drew was a badger. When Project Manager demanded the reason for this unusual choice, User Interface first answered that it was because badgers were grumpy and nocturnal. Industrial Designer joked about whether this suggested that User Interface had the same characteristics. User Interface then explained that his/her favourable impression of the badger came from books like Wind in the Willow, where badgers were cooler animals than what people generally imagine them to be." "Project Manager: the selling price for our remote is going to be twentyfive Euro and our profit aim is fifty million Euro We are going to make this an international product marketed in the States in Europe in Asia And our production cost to make that profit is going to be a max of twelve fifty Euro per remote So we are going to talk for a little while here are some topics that we might be able to discuss Expe our experiences with remote controls our first ideas about this new remote anything that you can bring to the table for this project So You want to start us off ? Anybody have anything to offer ? Industrial Designer: Well we want to make a multifunctional remote right ? User Interface: And everything being Wait we have what sound system TV DVD VHS TiVo ? Industrial Designer: I think they will be phasing VHS out shortly User Interface: But it is still there so if po if we are going to do it Marketing: It needs to be compatible because universal remote controls are never universal Project Manager: They are never universal That is right Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product DVD player say usually it does not work if it is not one of the User Interface: Or if it is not like a Sony if it is like a I do not know Industrial Designer: So we will have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals Marketing: And what we need an insanely good instruction booklet because you always have to reconfigure all your contraptions to go with the remote anyways Project Manager: Kay and another thing that I think is important is the d the design of the product how it feels in your hand If it is just flat and kind of boring th those do not Nobody wants to buy those any more They want the ergonomic ones Marketing: They want like the flashy lights Oh like this came from Las Vegas Project Manager: Ones that ones that look hightech too User Interface: But at the same time are simple Project Manager: So that people like my mother can use it Industrial Designer: What about something with the curvature like that matches the curvature of a hand ? Project Manager: Kay Anybody have any experiences with remote controls that they can remember that Industrial Designer: What kind of battery would we want to use ? Because battery changing is usually Project Manager: Do some of them use triple As though ? Marketing: So double or triple ? User Interface: I guess then it is If we need to do triple A we can but most people usually have double As around Project Manager: But that has to do with the size of it too Well w as long as we know that issue is Marketing: if we want it to be more thin then we would probably want to go with a triple A Industrial Designer: Can you with a small lithium battery ? Project Manager: it is we do not have to decide about it now just as long as we remember battery type and size is important","The aspects they mentioned were its compatibility, ergonomics, and the battery type it would use. Since the remote control was expected to be multifunctional, it must be compatible with all kinds of devices. This would also require a detailed instruction booklet for customers. The design of its look and curvature would also matter. Finally, the team agreed to keep the battery problem on hold." "Industrial Designer: Well we want to make a multifunctional remote right ? User Interface: And everything being Wait we have what sound system TV DVD VHS TiVo ? Industrial Designer: I think they will be phasing VHS out shortly User Interface: But it is still there so if po if we are going to do it Marketing: It needs to be compatible because universal remote controls are never universal Project Manager: They are never universal That is right Esp e especially if you buy a a not big product DVD player say usually it does not work if it is not one of the User Interface: Or if it is not like a Sony if it is like a I do not know Industrial Designer: So we will have to figure it how to cover all the different variances in signals","Industrial Designer perceived that the single remote should be able to control every possible device, and this would be rather difficult to achieve. Industrial Designer thought that VHSs would be phased out shortly, but they should still take it into consideration for the time being. Industrial Designer drew the conclusion that they had to make sure it could cover all the variances in signals." "Industrial Designer: What kind of battery would we want to use ? Because battery changing is usually Project Manager: Do some of them use triple As though ? Marketing: So double or triple ? User Interface: I guess then it is If we need to do triple A we can but most people usually have double As around Project Manager: But that has to do with the size of it too Well w as long as we know that issue is Marketing: if we want it to be more thin then we would probably want to go with a triple A Industrial Designer: Can you with a small lithium battery ? Project Manager: it is we do not have to decide about it now just as long as we remember battery type and size is important","The team first hesitated between double A and triple A batteries. Double A's would be more convenient for customers, since most people usually have this type around. However, triple A batteries would allow the remote to be thinner. Industrial Designer then proposed that they could also try a small lithium battery. With all these possible options, Project Manager decided that they should leave this question aside and move on with the meeting, as long as they kept the battery problem in mind." "Marketing: the closest button that was used well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button which was used fourteen times per hour followed by the volume button which was four times per hour all the other all the other buttons such as ch audio and picture selection configuration buttons and things were used you know l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour we also asked users which buttons had the most importance to them you know which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control And basically they came they said the channel volume and power buttons had the highest relevance to users note that only power was very infrequently used it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that w the audio and picture settings were very were not very important to them and they used them very infrequently a as well So we asked users what what frustrates them the most about current remote controls And fifty percent of the users said that what frustrates them is losing the remote control somewhere in the room and not being able to find it they also said that it it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control especially when there is many buttons and it is a you know a c a a unintuitive interface and then thirdly they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and because you repetitive strain injury We also asked some users about some specific features that they would like to see in the on the remote control In particular do they want an LCD d display and secondly do they think speech recognition is a useful feature to have on a remote control basically our findings are that amongst a younger age groups the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes They want these features they want these high technology features for instance ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes they want these features Whereas the the trend was as users as users became older and older they were less likely to want these sort of features in a in a remote control So I guess it depends on where we are focusing our our market and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics I think we are focusing on the younger younger target demographic and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control That is my dic that is my presentation Thank you Project Manager: So maybe now we can talk about a user interface and about the technical function of this device So Pet Peter can you talk say something about that ? Industrial Designer: Well but the user user interface is responsible User Interface: B you think I I am User Interface Manager Project Manager: Sorry I am Sorry Sorry User Interface: If I could go there with this cable Industrial Designer: You are scaring me with LCD man And speech recognition in remote unit it will be very e expensive Marketing: it is true but you know they are features that users want And our production cost of twelve fifty Euros per per unit is fairly high I think so I think we can afford to to add these sort of features into our remote Industrial Designer: At least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally","Marketing had concluded that younger users might be more expected to use high technology features such as LCD display and speech recognition. However, the industrial designer was worried it would influence the design of circuits and make the price out of range, while marketing thought they could afford it. Industrial designer also mentioned that they should care about battery life if speech recognition was used." "Marketing: Do you think radio waves will interfere with other appliances in the home ? User Interface: I do not think so because we can make we ca we can make this wave in a specific frequency So they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the with other devices inside the home Project Manager: So can we use any any frequency ? We have the right to use any frequency ? User Interface: no but as I know there is a range for for this f for for for this stuff for designing this circuit We can we can we can tune our transmitter to work in this range and for this range we do not need to ask any permission Project Manager: And what happen with radio waves when two neighbours have the same have our remote control for example ? And so do they have the same frequency or ? User Interface: for this I am not I I do not know the solution but one solution can be something like putting p password or something inside the wave so the only your TV can understand it Industrial Designer: f I know about this since it is my it is exactly my field so It is kind of handshaking when starting to when you start to communicate with the your TV then then it is like an handshaking protocol with your your remote So so if two two devices are trying to go to communicate with the TV set then the the the one which has the more energy in the wave is chosen Well it can be a problem sometimes but most of the time it works User Interface: The password may simply or i identification code may simply solve this problem A specific remote control has a specific f Industrial Designer: but we we do not have to think about this because I think as a function designer that we will use the already made circuits which we probably bu buy It is worth to buy And they have these problems solved so So we do not have to think about these","User interface said that they could make this wave in specific frequency to avoid interfering with other devices. A password could also be put inside the wave in case that two neighbours had the same remote controls. If two devices were trying to go to communicate with the TV set, then the wave with more energy was chosen." "Project Manager: So what do you think would be the price it would be out of range ? Or it would be maybe feasible ? Industrial Designer: Oh I was not thinking too much about the price But if we use the LCD even the radio frequency communication with the TV set and the backlight and related things like the photo diodes and stuff it should be If we decide to use the speech recognition then we probably could struggle but we will see afterwards It depends of you if if the ME or UID I am sorry about the names I do not really know want to have it like in metal or in plastic these things it it depends on you not Because the the the electronic devices price is not not so big in comparison to to the overall shape and stuff like that so We will discuss it afterwards Oh this is nothing This is just my notes on what to use And my personal preference is yes I would like also preferably to use RW circuit but from the point of view of the design and price I would stick to IRs That is my opinion I mean if infrared circuit not not the radio frequency Project Manager: Why ? Because it is simpler ? Industrial Designer: Because because the the range where you can use it is fair It is I think And the price is fairly cheap for this Project Manager: It is a a price matter Industrial Designer: Otherwise I do not care what I put there because it is the chip which I buy or which we buy","Industrial designer thought that if they only used LCD displays, backlight radio frequency communication with the TV set and other related things, the price would be ok. However, if speech recognition was required, the price would be out of range. And he preferred IR circuits because it was much cheaper." "Marketing: Well should we start with just the core the basic functions that we need And then we can move on to the more advanced features Industrial Designer: so the available things are LCD the buttons and everything radio frequency depends And well the recognition it depends on you guys Project Manager: but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? Marketing: well I mean the obvious one is changing channels Project Manager: I think we should stick on very useful functions because we want less button So turning channel of course Volume setting Industrial Designer: just one note to the chan channel changing Do we will we use only two buttons or or like numbered buttons ? I mean those nine plus one or two ? Project Manager: I think it would be a b Industrial Designer: Because it is many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number Project Manager: On the other side we have more and more channels and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want it is Industrial Designer: so so we keep all these all these buttons Project Manager: Maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens like User Interface: at least nine ten button Industrial Designer: Like ten plus five plus one plus one minus or something Or using the names and the keyboard Project Manager: Oh I do not know Oh Maybe we could have key buttons like discovery channe like documentary channel and movies channel and Industrial Designer: You mean like hierarchical structure Project Manager: And inside this this thing you can move maybe switch If you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you have you plus plus plus I It just an idea",They wanted the number of buttons to be as small as possible and only stuck on useful functions. They thought that channel changing and volume setting button was obviously needed. There could also be key buttons which were used to select a specific channel. An individual power button was also considered necessary after discussion. But the user interface rejected having a TV setting button on the remote control. "Marketing: S What about things like the clock and timers ? Industrial Designer: Do we still have the time ? I I just wonder Project Manager: we have still one or two minutes to talk Industrial Designer: Oh Well what w what was the question ? Marketing: you know some func some features on the control to display a time or t to display Project Manager: Usually it is already on TV or something like that Industrial Designer: but since we want to control all the televisions and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote no ? Because if if the TV turns on itself it well you know if the time The timer should be there Project Manager: If we if we add the time we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that and is it very useful ? I mean are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? Marketing: It is a questi it is a tradeoff Project Manager: W In my opinion we should have only useful thing and Because apparently they want The simpler it is is better Industrial Designer: Did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the TV well And based on your Marketing: But I do use the I do use the display of the time quite often but Industrial Designer: but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote Marketing: that is that is true so no time button","The marketing hoped there would be some features on the control to display the name. Industrial designer also wondered about whether the time setting for turning on TV was useful. While the project manager thought that if time was added, a bigger display would be required, which was not useful for users." "Project Manager: So nice to see you again So Tod for this meeting I will take the notes and do the minutes so we will see our three presentations we will start with the Manager Expert wi who will talk about user re requirements what is user needs and what it desire for this devi device Marketing: can I have the laptop over here or ? Project Manager: Yep Oh I do not think so I think you have to come here I do not know I think it should stay Should stay in the square here Marketing: so basically I am going to present some findings of a study we conducted into what users want in this remote control Project Manager: Oh you can put it here Oh that is it is jus Marketing: so first of all we what we did is we conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects we put them in a in our usability laboratory and got them to you know play with remote controls and also to complete after they would done that to complete a questionnaire to tell us what they like and what they do not like in remote controls So basically the major things we found out was that basically users do not like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market they you know seventy five percent of the people we we did the experiments on found that rem remote the remote controls that they would used in the past were ugly Completely ugly they they did not match the operating behaviour of the user that is you know the the way users use remote controls when they are watching TV that the layout of the remote controls did not match they way that they used it and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we tested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that are on remote controls so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics based on how these test subjects were using their remote control And from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons the channel selection buttons are the most by far the most used buttons on the remote control and you can see they are used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average while the users watching TV the closest button that was used well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button which was used fourteen times per hour followed by the volume button which was four times per hour all the other all the other buttons such as ch audio and picture selection configuration buttons and things were used you know l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour we also asked users which buttons had the most importance to them you know which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control And basically they came they said the channel volume and power buttons had the highest relevance to users note that only power was very infrequently used it only had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance and the audio and picture settings had a very that well the users thought that w the audio and picture settings were very were not very important to them and they used them very infrequently a as well So we asked users what what frustrates them the most about current remote controls And fifty percent of the users said that what frustrates them is losing the remote control somewhere in the room and not being able to find it they also said that it it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control especially when there is many buttons and it is a you know a c a a unintuitive interface and then thirdly they some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are bad and because you repetitive strain injury We also asked some users about some specific features that they would like to see in the on the remote control In particular do they want an LCD d display and secondly do they think speech recognition is a useful feature to have on a remote control basically our findings are that amongst a younger age groups the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes They want these features they want these high technology features for instance ninety one percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes they want these features Whereas the the trend was as users as users became older and older they were less likely to want these sort of features in a in a remote control So I guess it depends on where we are focusing our our market and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics I think we are focusing on the younger younger target demographic and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control That is my dic that is my presentation Thank you","Users didn't like the look and feel of most remote controls currently on the market. And most users only used ten percent of buttons on the remote control. Channel selection button was the most commonly used button, followed by the volume button. Young users might prefer to have high technology features such as LCD display or speech recognition function on the remote control." "Project Manager: first they say that is about something about t teletext apparently it becomes from according to them it becomes out of date Outdated And Because of the internet popularity and everybody has internet at home and actually it is not useful to have teletext So I think we can avoid the teletext the second thing is they suggest that that we should use the remote control only for TV not for DVD and other devices because it make it it makes it is too complex and because we have not much time for this project we should stay on TV on the only specific TV remote control The third the third one is about the the the image of the company So we should we should keep The the product should be recognisable It is That mean we should use the colour of our company and maybe put somewhere the s the slogan of the company which is we put fashion of in electronics So when people see the the remote control they should say oh it is from Real Reaction and he s they should recognise the company So So now we we should take the decision what we are going to what function we will have on this on this remote control So mm are we going to use LCD speech recognition ? Marketing: Well should we start with just the core the basic functions that we need And then we can move on to the more advanced features Industrial Designer: so the available things are LCD the buttons and everything radio frequency depends And well the recognition it depends on you guys Project Manager: but first maybe what is what are the usual function of a standard remote control ? Marketing: well I mean the obvious one is changing channels Project Manager: I think we should stick on very useful functions because we want less button So turning channel of course Volume setting Industrial Designer: just one note to the chan channel changing Do we will we use only two buttons or or like numbered buttons ? I mean those nine plus one or two ? Project Manager: I think it would be a b Industrial Designer: Because it is many buttons and we were speaking about lowering the number Project Manager: On the other side we have more and more channels and if you want to pass through all the channels to get the channel you want it is Industrial Designer: so so we keep all these all these buttons Project Manager: Maybe maybe we could think of something more betweens like User Interface: at least nine ten button Industrial Designer: Like ten plus five plus one plus one minus or something Or using the names and the keyboard Project Manager: Oh I do not know Oh Maybe we could have key buttons like discovery channe like documentary channel and movies channel and Industrial Designer: You mean like hierarchical structure Project Manager: And inside this this thing you can move maybe switch If you want to see a movie you click on the movie button so you have all the movie channels and after you have you plus plus plus I It just an idea I do not know what you think about that but Industrial Designer: So it requires the use of LCD probably to to tell you so I will make a note on LCD Marketing: We could maybe also c incorporate Petres idea of the slider for the volume with the channel So we c you could quickly just through many channels So we have got channel and volume Industrial Designer: So we are still s speaking about the common devices or we are inviting the new one ? Marketing: I think basically the core functions we want and then more advanced ones Project Manager: What about the settings of the TV ? Because it is button we do not use very often but it is we need it anyway So User Interface: So we do not have any we do not have we should just design the remote control and we sh we do not have any access to the to the TV design or we can change some design Because one solution for this ch changing channels is to see a summary of all channels some some preview of all channels and then you can Industrial Designer: On the screen you mean ? Not on the control but on the screen User Interface: Not on the control on the screen on the TV screen Industrial Designer: Well this would avoid LCD then Marketing: I do not Oh I do not but I do not think we are we are the ones I mean this remote control we are developing is a generic control for all TVs I think Project Manager: I do not know if it is possible to to watch something on TV Industrial Designer: Oh W I I think it it would be better to to stick to the remote control and not to bother the TV to to to print these things Well it wi it will be still more expensive but for the LCD and this stuff is no problem in the price Project Manager: So what are we doing with the settings ? Because settings if we want to do settings we need buttons for that and we want less buttons so Maybe with the LCD we can do something with less buttons but Marketing: But then you do not want to make the LCD display too complicated at the same time I mean there is always we can always have these l less often used functions hidden somewhere under a cover or at the back of under a slide or some Industrial Designer: We we could have for example two buttons like simple mode and advanced mode Or I do not know Or like children and grandfathers mode and the well the the user not the user the man mana TV manager mode Ah I do not know Marketing: So we have five minutes left So I think s the settings we th we are agreeing are agreed that they are required It is just how to a Project Manager: We should hide them somewhere In the menus of the LCD or in the back of the remote control or something like that Marketing: I mean a power buttons obviously Industrial Designer: This I was thinking Do we need a power button at all ? Should should should not we do it like sleep mode after five minutes of not using it ? Because generally Project Manager: It is it is a kind of setting I think It should fit in those settings functions Because it is not a very current useful function Marketing: well I think when they say power button they mean to turn the TV on and off Project Manager: No I think it is after after five minutes or something a timer I I think no ? Marketing: But if you are watching TV for two hours you do not want your TV to turn off after five five minute Industrial Designer: You do not need to every five minutes to keep it alive probably so we should keep this button Marketing: I mean based on our usability studies again pe people said that the power button was v a very relevant button you know it was nine out of ten Industrial Designer: so we we could p what we could probably do is to keep also to keep keep the LCD and all the buttons and stuff we could make it like a opening opening style that if you open it you are you just turn on the TV and if you close it it will If if you like this Because well it is maybe question for you t Marketing: I think we need to concentrate on the you know the major usage of the th of the control which is you sit down you turn on your TV you change channels you change the volume you turn the TV off and all the other f functionality is User Interface: they can they can be hide somewhere by a cover or something like this Industrial Designer: but since we have the LCD we did not need too much button too many buttons just the decision of the power button Should we make it a button or some some something which would be Marketing: I think it should be a bu Industrial Designer: If it if it is a button or Project Manager: a button I guess so Marketing: Its own button on the front Industrial Designer: Old fashioned button to satisfy the grandmothers Project Manager: So any other suggestions or functions ? Marketing: S What about things like the clock and timers ? Industrial Designer: Do we still have the time ? I I just wonder Project Manager: we have still one or two minutes to talk Industrial Designer: Oh Well what w what was the question ? Marketing: you know some func some features on the control to display a time or t to display Project Manager: Usually it is already on TV or something like that Industrial Designer: but since we want to control all the televisions and and it would probably be worth to to set the timing on the remote no ? Because if if the TV turns on itself it well you know if the time The timer should be there Project Manager: If we if we add the time we have to have maybe a bigger display or something like that and is it very useful ? I mean are users wants to have the time on the on the remote ? Marketing: It is a questi it is a tradeoff Project Manager: W In my opinion we should have only useful thing and Because apparently they want The simpler it is is better Industrial Designer: Did you did you ever use the like the timing of turning on the TV well And based on your Marketing: But I do use the I do use the display of the time quite often but Industrial Designer: but it can be on the display in in a corner all the time on the remote","New requirement included avoiding the teletext, focusing on remote control only for TV and keeping the product recognizable. All the group members agreed. They also decided to start with basic functions and then move on to the more advanced feature. Then they concluded that LCD display, channel button and volume button were necessary." "Mr. Patrick Weiler (West VancouverSunshine CoastSea to Sky Country, Lib.): Mr Chair I continue to be amazed by how the communities throughout my riding have stepped up to support our most vulnerable at our time of crisis In many ways it has brought our communities closer together even while we stay physically distant Nowhere is this more true than on the Sunshine Coast Dedicated individuals immediately and organically mobilized the Sunshine Coast community task force to coordinate local government nonprofit and business efforts to provide critical services to the community Social enterprises banded together to form the Sunshine Coast food service response which provides readymade meals and donates to food banks Persephone Brewing and others deliver groceries to atrisk customers both on the coast and on isolated islands The 101 Brewhouse Distillery and Bruinwood Distillery quickly retooled their business to supply muchneeded hand sanitizer to local hospitals and other frontline workers COVID19 like all crises has highlighted true leadership in our society and I am grateful for what they and all of our health care workers do every day to get us through this The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon member for Medicine HatCardstonWarner Mr Motz Mr. Glen Motz (Medicine HatCardstonWarner, CPC): Mr Chair the Prime Minister and his cabinet have shown they are unwilling to put the protection and safety of Canadians ahead of political interests They themselves are the greatest source of disinformation in this country The Prime Minister told Canadians that they can buy a gun without a licence Either purposely or because of ignorance he left out the fact that doing so is a criminal offence with a fiveyear prison sentence The Minister of Public Safety said he would not target hunters but then he went ahead and banned numerous boltaction hunting rifles and made owning a shotgun a criminal offence They have weakened the ability to protect our borders They have ignored our rampant drug crisis and they have weakened sentences for serious crimes all while saying they take these issues very seriously Today they tell us they are banning a new Liberalinvented type of firearm a militarystyle assault rifle It is time to be honest with Canadians The Liberals would rather make people afraid of hunters farmers and sport shooters than deal with the real issues like drugs gangs illegal smuggling and crime The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to Ms Sgro the hon member for Humber RiverBlack Creek Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.): Mr Chair it is in our most difficult moments when we truly see stunning displays of human spirit and generosity On that note today I wish to recognize the work of the Humber River Hospital in my riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek and to congratulate them on the success of their Humber frontline support fund and PPE drive Not only have they been on the front lines of the COVID19 pandemic keeping our residents safe and healthy but thanks to the generosity of those both in my riding and beyond the Humber River Hospital has raised over 1 million and received over 400000 pieces of personal protective equipment This will be invaluable to the hospital as they continue to work with us and fight the good fight to keep us all healthy I thank all those brave workers at the hospital and I thank those generous individuals who have donated to this important because The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I now invite the hon member for AbitibiTmiscamingue MrLemire to take the floor Mr. Sbastien Lemire (AbitibiTmiscamingue, BQ): Thank you MrChair I am honoured to speak to you about a proud warrior StephanLavoie had made the choice to say thank you to life For several years he had been using his fight against cancer which he led with the help of natural products only to ensure cancer services and care were improved particularly in regions far from major centres Mayor of Preissac in the RCM of Abitibi StephanLavoie passed away yesterday I would like to extend my condolences to his wife Anabelle to his entire family and especially to his daughter Astrid who is only 20months old Through his humanism StephanLavoie was a warrior a visionary and a great source of inspiration for all of us To me he was above all the perfect model of a committed and loving father My thoughts also go out to the citizens of Preissac to whom he leaves a dynamic legacy and to the leaders of the Abitibi community In our first conversation he said to me and I hope the House will echo it forever that all of our decisions must be made with our children in mind Stephan rest in peace dear friend The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon member for MontRoyal MrHousefather has the floor Mr. Anthony Housefather (Mount Royal, Lib.): It is with great sadness that I rise today to pay tribute to Tristan Roy after his tragic passing exactly two weeks ago Born in SaintFabiensurMer Tristan became a pillar of the MontRoyal community in1997 when he bought the old MontRoyal newspaper When the citys oldest newspaper the TOMORROW Weekly Post ceased operations Tristan registered the name and renamed his newspaper the TOMORROW Poste de MontRoyal He created a truly bilingual newspaper ensuring that TOMORROW residents could receive their news in both French and English His editorials and views on local issues carried enormous weight I join Mayor Philippe Roy and the members of the town council in offering our sincere condolences to Tristans wife AnneMarie his daughter Aril and his son Lancelot We all considered Tristan to be a friend an example of what a good journalist and editor should be and could be He will be sorely missed The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon member for Beauce MrLehoux has the floor Mr. Richard Lehoux (Beauce, CPC): MrChair if you did not already know people from Beauce are proud There is MariePhilipPoulin of Beauceville who was named the best female hockey player in the world earlier this year or AntonyAuclair of NotreDamedesPins AntonyAuclair said in a CBC article that Beauce had prepared him for his arrival in the NFL There is also GuillaumeCouture from SainteMarie who made his mother very proud and everyone from Beauce indirectly on the program Les Chefs again last night It is this same pride that I see throughout the region with companies like Revtech Systmes in SaintJosephdeBeauce or PuriHaze in SainteMarie which have invented robots to decontaminate spaces There are also local purchasing initiatives such as the onlaici campaign by the NouvelleBeauce chamber of commerce and industry or Achetons beauceron by the SaintGeorges chamber of commerce Today I have but two words for my constituents : thank you I thank them for continuing to encourage local businesses that greatly need it I thank them for being loyal to their habits and to rolling up their sleeves to help their neighbours I thank them for being proud and being residents of Beauce","Condolences were shared to the families of the people who were involved in a fatal accident in Placentia bay. Sadly, Mr. Dufuor, Mr. Rogers, and Mrs. Louise Feltham also passed away the week before. Condolences were also given to the essential workers who lost their lives in service of others." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for WellingtonHalton Hills Mr Chong Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Mr Chair the House of Commons is shut down Let us be clear This is not the House of Commons It is a committee where only statements petitions and questions are allowed There is no power to introduce motions to test confidence or to vote The government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform They tried to give the PMO the control over this House in motion 6 and yesterdays report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election Now they have shuttered Parliament Parliament sat through two world wars the October crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test but not now The peoples representatives need to sit People need their representation Parliament and this House of Commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for ReginaQuAppelle Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many Canadians : sickness losing loved ones job losses economic hardships loneliness and isolation The pandemic has taken its toll on so many It is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen Canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope Mosques churches synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities Whether it is providing meals to the hungry clothing for the cold or technology for those who need it most these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that Canadians are known for While there are too many groups to mention them all I want to thank Vikas Sharma and Care4Cause out of Brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the GTA This group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need Thank you and God bless all the volunteers The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to the honourable member for Winnipeg Centre Ms Gazan go ahead","The Liberals were accused of promoting the harmful status quo of maintaining the ban on blood donations from gay men and trans women. Additionally, they, together with the conservatives, were also accused of using the emergency wage subsidy to fund their own partisan activities at the expense of vulnerable citizens." "Ms. Yasmin Ratansi (Don Valley East, Lib.): Mr Chair our government has shown leadership during the COVID19 pandemic by ensuring that Canadians remain safe and get the financial assistance they need Eight million Canadians are receiving the Canada emergency response benefit The Canada emergency business account and the Canada emergency wage subsidy ensure that the economy is ready to start up postpandemic Seniors received topups to the OAS and GIS and families the child care benefit All of these measures are helping thousands of seniors and lowincome families in my riding of Don Valley East The feedback from my regular virtual town halls has also helped to finetune many of the programs Many Canadians have shown generosity during this crisis I want to particularly thank Saravanaa Bhavan and Happy Pops for donating food and frozen treats to our superhero frontline workers at local hospitals The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for VaughanWoodbridge Mr Sorbara Mr. Francesco Sorbara (VaughanWoodbridge, Lib.): Mr Chair even though this years festivities for Italian Heritage Month will be done differently the same spirit and vitality exists throughout virtual events happening across the country Virtual events have seen Italian Canadians through their generosity raise over 1 million to help Italy during COVID19 Today June 2 Italian citizens celebrate the founding of the modern day Italian Republic The Italian Canadian story remains one of passion an adopted homeland filled with hard work sacrifice and optimism Generations of Italian Canadians have contributed much to shaping the inclusive and generous Canada that we know today Our diversity is our strength and I am proud to be Italian Canadian Let us all join together in proudly celebrating Italian Heritage Month Thank you Mr Chair The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for Calgary Skyview Ms Sahota Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Mr Chair as communities begin to ease restrictions I remain mystified that according to this government Parliament is not an essential service If it were up to the Prime Minister he would not have to answer to anyone That is not how democracy works We in the opposition have been long calling for the return of Parliament which would be possible while still maintaining public health guidelines Canadians deserve to be represented in the House of Commons by the elected member of Parliament While the work we do in our constituencies is incredibly important it is equally important to bring those voices back to Ottawa to debate to question and to hold the government to account This is fundamental to the role of an elected representative The role of the opposition is crucial now more than ever when billions of dollars are being spent with little oversight Our role as members of Parliament is to uphold our democracy and to be present This is the greatest pandemic in our lifetime Now is not the time to hide behind a podium If this government were doing the best job for Canadians they would not need to hide Thank you The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for Brampton East Mr Sidhu Mr. Maninder Sidhu (Brampton East, Lib.): Mr Chair I would like to take a moment to highlight displays of generosity in my riding of Brampton East This is just a small sample of the many individuals and organizations that have stepped up across Canada Khalsa Aid has been providing food supplies with the help of Sperenza Banquet Hall which has graciously provided the space to run a provincewide campaign out of Brampton East Care4Cause has sent hundreds of prepared meals on a weekly basis to Good Shepherd Ministries to lessen their load Navraj Brar at Pharmasave has offered free care packages to health care workers and hand sanitizer to the Peel Regional Police Aujla Salon and Spa has partnered with GlobalMedic to help deliver over 10000 pounds of food to local food banks I would also like to point out the heroic efforts of our truck drivers taxi drivers grocery store clerks nurses doctors paramedics and countless other frontline heroes We see you and we are immensely grateful for the bravery you display each and every day Thank you to everyone in Brampton East who has stepped up for their neighbour in their time of need You are setting a great example of the kind of progress we can make as Canadians when we come together and support each other I am truly honoured to represent you in Ottawa The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now go to the honourable member for WellingtonHalton Hills Mr Chong Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Mr Chair the House of Commons is shut down Let us be clear This is not the House of Commons It is a committee where only statements petitions and questions are allowed There is no power to introduce motions to test confidence or to vote The government came to office promising greater democracy but they broke their promise on electoral reform They tried to give the PMO the control over this House in motion 6 and yesterdays report confirms that they rigged the leaders debate in their favour in the last election Now they have shuttered Parliament Parliament sat through two world wars the October crisis and previous pandemics and it survived the test but not now The peoples representatives need to sit People need their representation Parliament and this House of Commons with its full powers needs to reopen and it needs to reopen now The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable member for ReginaQuAppelle Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair these past few months have been tremendously difficult for so many Canadians : sickness losing loved ones job losses economic hardships loneliness and isolation The pandemic has taken its toll on so many It is in these times of suffering and adversity that we have seen Canadians coming together to support each other and that brings us hope Mosques churches synagogues and gurdwaras have all answered the call to help their communities Whether it is providing meals to the hungry clothing for the cold or technology for those who need it most these actions are true reflections of the kindness and generosity that Canadians are known for While there are too many groups to mention them all I want to thank Vikas Sharma and Care4Cause out of Brampton for the meals that they have been providing their community in that area and across the GTA This group and thousands of others like it across the country are working tirelessly to ease the suffering of others and help those in need Thank you and God bless all the volunteers The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to the honourable member for Winnipeg Centre Ms Gazan go ahead Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr Chair I rise today in honour of National Indigenous History Month to speak truth about a history of racism in Canada that was built on the wrongful dispossession of lands from indigenous people and controlled through the use of policestate violence that has resulted in a loss of life freedom respect and dignity Even today we continue to observe this reality in my very own city where we witnessed the killing of three indigenous youth by police in a span of 10 days this past April This is not a coincidence We have statistics We have research and we have stories of loved ones lost We know it and we see it in our lives every day We need to address police violence throughout this country Canadians are rising from coast to coast demanding this of all of us and sending a clear message that we must address systemic racism in all of its forms to ensure justice for all There will never be reconciliation in the absence of justice",Essential workers were thanked for their efforts in saving lives during the ongoing pandemic. It was noted that the week was Paramedic Services Week in appreciation of their work. "Mr. Terry Duguid (Winnipeg South, Lib.): Mr Chair today I want to give a special thank you to the health care workers at Victoria General Hospital who are serving patients in our community here in Winnipeg South Every day doctors nurses and staff work selflessly to take care of those in our community who need it most Whether it is by keeping seniors connected with their families by using iPads or making sure that patients go home with a special care package staff at the Vic are doing extraordinary work to make this difficult time just a little bit easier I would also like to give a big shoutout to our wonderful small businesses in Winnipeg South that continue to show their appreciation by preparing meals for the hardworking staff at the Vic Folks in our community continue to show what it means to be exemplary Canadians and it is a great honour to represent them The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): This concludes the period for statements by members We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers The honourable Leader of the Opposition Hon. Andrew Scheer: MrChair the staff of longterm care facilities for seniors are showing exceptional courage and dedication FranoisLegault asked that the military personnel currently helping in facilities in Quebec stay until the fall The Prime Minister said no I would like to hear the Prime Minister tell us why they can not stay Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair like all Canadians I am deeply grateful for the extraordinary work that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing in longterm care facilities in Quebec and Ontario Thanks to their reports we have seen that the situation was even worse than we feared The work our military is doing is extraordinary We will continue to support them but we know that having military personnel in our longterm care facilities is not a longterm solution Therefore we are going to work with Quebec to find better longterm solutions Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair now that Bell Canada has decided to partner with Ericsson to deliver its 5G network the Liberals will undoubtedly ban Huawei but the Liberal inaction on Huawei is just another example of this governments weak leadership Instead of deciding for himself a year ago the Prime Minister is forcing the business community to make the decision for him Why could not the Prime Minister have shown some backbone and banned Huawei a year ago ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair our approach every step of the way has been to listen to experts to work with allies and to listen to the counsel of our security and intelligence community which has been looking into this issue We know we need to make sure that Canadian businesses Canadians and Canadian infrastructure are protected at the same time as we remain competitive in the world That has guided our approach on this from the beginning Hon. Andrew Scheer: The fact of the matter Mr Chair is that it has not The former public safety minister Ralph Goodale promised in this House over a year ago that an answer on Huawei would be coming Here we are it is June 2 2020 and they still have not made a decision On another topic Mr Chair the President of the Treasury Board wrote to cabinet last week and said that transparency is important even in a time of crisis I guess the Minister of Infrastructure did not get that letter She is refusing to tell us how much of a bonus she gave to the departing head of the Canada Infrastructure Bank At a time when Canadians are struggling it is disgusting that the Liberals are paying out bonuses to someone who accomplished nothing Will the Prime Minister have a little respect for taxpayers and tell us exactly how much of a bonus the CEO of the Canada Infrastructure Bank received ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the mandate of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to find innovative ways to finance some of Canadas biggest infrastructure projects by leveraging private capital The remuneration range of the former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years The opposition is looking backward We are moving forward The bank is moving into its next phase of development now under the leadership of the new board chair Michael Sabia and will play an important role in the recovery when the time comes Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair only to a Liberal would an innovative approach to building infrastructure mean building absolutely nothing The CEO of an infrastructure bank who accomplished zero completed infrastructure projects should not be receiving a bonus I did not ask a question about the remuneration I did not ask a question about the salary This individual received a bonus How much was that bonus ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair as I said the remuneration range of this former CEO has been in the public domain for more than two years In regard to further payments we do not comment on personal HR and financial information of individuals in government Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair again I did not ask about the remuneration I asked about the bonus The Canada Infrastructure Bank was a Liberal scheme designed to protect the investments of private investors and put all the risk onto taxpayers Even with that model do you know how many projects they completed ? Zero Yet the individual in charge of that received a bonus from the Prime Minister Apparently to the Liberals he was doing a good job They might try to claim that it is arms length and that they can not divulge this information but we know that Minister Champagne personally intervened in the decision regarding the bonus of the Canada Infrastructure Banks CEO It is a simple question How much did that individual receive ?","Farmers were faced by inaccessibility of financial aid due to the complicated online calculator. Even after consulting with accountants, it still wasn't clear on how to navigate the assistance program." "Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr Chair we continue to manage our fiscal situation in a responsible manner and we will continue to do that Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How much does the Government of Canada owe to the Peoples Republic of China ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair we would be happy to provide information If the member would like to send my office questions directly I would be happy to provide this information Hon. Pierre Poilievre: It turns out I did a week ago They still have not provided answers to the questions in particular the question regarding who owns Canadas foreignheld debt We know that roughly a third of our debt is owned by foreigners How much of that debt is owned by lenders from the Peoples Republic of China ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair as I said we would be happy to reply to these questions directly We will do so We will get to it in order as we work through this crisis making sure we focus on Canadians first Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How much is owned by lenders from Saudi Arabia ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Again Mr Chair we would be happy to provide information in this regard should the member wish to send a request directly to my office Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Which I have Mr Chair moving along to the impacts of the debt on our people how much would a 1 increase in the effective interest rate on Canadas national debt cost Canadian taxpayers ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair we continue to manage our treasury function responsibly I would be happy to get financial calculations to the member if he would like to send those directly to my office Hon. Pierre Poilievre: All right Mr Chair we will try a different question then as we are not getting any answers We have lower interest rates than ever before Normally it means you lock in those rates for the long run Anybody who has a mortgage knows you lock in for the long run when rates are low What percentage of Canadas national debt is locked in for more than five years ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair I would be happy to get this information to the member but I would acknowledge that as we manage the treasury function for the Government of Canada we look at the short term the medium term and the long term We think we have come up with a responsible approach to managing the ongoing debt that we have as a country Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Mr Chair it turns out according to Department of Finance officials that less than 3 of Canadas recently added debt since March is for terms of more than five years Why has this minister made Canada so susceptible to future interest rate hikes by failing to lock in the 3715 billion of new debt he is added in the last two and a half months ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair we continue to manage the treasury function of the Government of Canada in a responsible way making sure we consider what debt should be issued in a short term a medium term and a long term which we have been doing as the Government of Canada during our entire term and as previous governments have done as well Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Canadians would be wise not to hire this minister as their mortgage broker if they are looking to get the best rate Let us move on to the Canadian household The average household was 200 away from insolvency before this crisis began How many Canadians would experience bankruptcy in the next 12 months if interest rates were to rise by an effective one percentage point ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair again we would be happy to get calculations to the member I would make the observation that what we have been working to do during the course of this pandemic is to support Canadians and support Canadian families by providing them income during a time when they do not have access to income because they are actually at home We think that has supported them in a very very positive way that allows us to ensure that we will have a continuing economy when we get through this crisis The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have 30 seconds left Mr Poilievre Go ahead Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Unfortunately we will have a 1trillion debt when this fiscal year comes to an end How much will the finance minister try to raise taxes if interest rates on that debt rise by say 1 ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair as I have said to the House previously we do not intend to raise taxes What the member opposite is suggesting is that we should not be investing to support Canadians I think the approach we have taken with the emergency response benefit and the wage subsidy has been particularly critical for enabling Canadians to get through a very challenging time The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The floor goes to the honourable member for Beauce MrLehoux","Funds were requested to help fight human trafficking that affected vulnerable women and girls. There was concern for the rise in women abuse going up by as much as 400% and funds to support organizations to fight this not being released. Additionally, the members were made aware of the stripping of titles from First Nation women." "Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr Chair it took months for DFO to realize that fish passage on the Fraser River was blocked at Big Bar Then it took them seven more months to tender a contract to clear the blockage Now that contract has tripled from 176 million to over 525 million without a single communications post from the ministers office The original contract amount was clearly inadequate so who ordered it ? Hon. Bernadette Jordan (South ShoreSt. Margarets, Lib.): Mr Chair since we found out about the landslide at Big Bar our government has been extremely active in making sure that the salmon have a passage through We know how critically important the salmon are to the Fraser River as well as to the indigenous communities along the Fraser We are working diligently to make sure that we get that passage cleared So far we have made significant progress but we know there is more work that needs to be done That is why we will continue to work with indigenous communities and the province to make sure that these Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr Chair the fisheries ministers mandate letter from November of last year directed her to make new investments in fighting invasive species Half a year later the minister has failed to deliver Canadians on the front line of prevention wrote the minister and when they got a response five months later it was devoid of any help This governments delays are hurting Canadas fight against invasive species When will the minister follow her Prime Ministers directive and make new investments in the fight against invasive species ? Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair I want to thank my hon colleague for the question Invasive species are a real challenge for our waterways We know that a lot more has to be done We are working diligently to find the answers to deal with some of the problems we are seeing from invasive species We are continuing to monitor situations in waterways I am committed to making sure that I meet my commitments within my mandate letter and I will have more to say on that soon Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr Chair the list of hunting and sport shooting firearms banned by Minister Blairs order in council continues to grow What other hunting firearms does he plan to ban ? Hon. Bill Blair: Mr Chair to be very clear the weapons we have prohibited are weapons that were not designed for hunting or sport shooting but for soldiers to use in combat As law enforcement leaders right across the country have said many times they have no place in our community and we agree Mr. Mel Arnold: Mr Chair I continue to hear from constituents in the North OkanaganShuswap who are unable to access supports under the Canada emergency business account or the emergency commercial rent assistance program Business owners have also lost employees and can not get them to come back to work because of the lack of flexibility in the emergency response benefit and the emergency student benefit When the Liberals shut down Parliament they removed our ability to amend legislation and fix their failures When will the government fix these problems and the programs ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair we continue to look at the programs we have put out to support Canadians to make sure that they are actually having the desired impact As we have moved along we have said that we need to make amendments We have committed to extending the wage subsidy and of course we are looking at all the measures we have put out so we can ensure that people have the support they need during this crisis","Ms. Leah Gazan asked for help to tackle homelessness and provide rental assistance. The Minister of Families, Children and Social Development pointed to the ministries efforts to help with essential supplies and expenses." "Professor D: OK So You can fill those out pause after actually so So I got pause these results from Stephane Also I think that pause pause we might hear later today about other results I think s that there were some other very good results that we are going to want to compare to But r our results from other other places PhD A: I I m sorry ? I did not Professor D: I got this from you and then I sent a note to Sunil about the cuz he has been running some other systems other than the the ICSI OGI one So pause I wan want to want to see what that is But you know so we will see what it is comparatively later But pause it looks like You know most of the time even I mean even though it s true that the overall number for Danish we did not improve it If you look at it individually what it really says is that there s Looks like out of the six cases between the different kinds of matching conditions pause out of the six cases there s basically a couple where it stays about the same three where it gets better and one where it gets worse PhD A: Y Actually for the Danish there s still some kind of mystery because when we use the straight features we are not able to get these nice number with the ICSI OGI one I mean We do not have this ninety three seventy eight we have eight so that s probably something wrong with the features that we get from OGI and Sunil is working on on trying to to check everything Professor D: Oh and and we have a little time on that and actually so We have a little bit of time on that actually We have a day or so so When when when do you folks leave ? Sunday ? So So until Saturday midnight or something we have W we we have time Well that would be good That would be good and you know i you when whenever anybody figures it out they should also for sure email Hynek because Hynek will be over there telling people what we did so he should know Good OK So So we will we will hold off on that a little bit I mean even with these results as they are it s it s it s really not that bad But but And it looks like the overall result as they are now even without you know any any bugs being fixed is that on the the other tasks we had this average of forty nine percent or so improvement And here we have somewhat better than that than the Danish and somewhat worse than that on the German but I mean it sounds like one way or another the methods that we are doing can reduce the error rate from from mel ceptrum pause down by you know pause a fourth of them to a half of them Somewhere in there depending on the pause exact case So So that s good I mean I think that one of the things that Hynek was talking about was understanding what was in the other really good proposals and and trying to see if what should ultimately be proposed is some combination of things if Cuz there s things that they are doing pause there that we certainly are not doing And there s things that we are doing that pause they are not doing And and they all seem like good things PhD C: How much how much better was the best system than ours ? Professor D: So Well we do not know yet I mean first place there s still this thing to to work out and second place second thing is that the only results that we have so far from before were really development set results So I think in this community that s of interest It s not like everything is being pinned on the evaluation set But for the development set our best result was a little bit short of fifty percent And the best result of any system was about fifty four where these numbers are the relative reduction in word error rate And the other systems were somewhat lower than that There was actually there was much less of a huge range than there was in Aurora one In Aurora one there were there were systems that ba basically did not improve things And here the the worst system pause still reduced the error rate by thirty three percent or something in development set So so you know sort of everybody is doing things between well roughly a third of the errors and half the errors being eliminated and varying on different test sets and so forth So I think pause It s probably a good time to look at what s really going on and seeing if there s a there s a way to combine the best ideas while at the same time not blowing up the amount of resources used cuz that s that s critical for this this test PhD C: Do we know anything about who who s was it that had the lowest on the dev set ? Professor D: the the there were two systems that were put forth by a combination of of French Telecom and Alcatel And they they differed in some respects but they e them one was called the French Telecom Alcatel System the other was called the Alcatel French Telecom System which is the biggest difference I think But but there are there are there are some other differences too and and they both did very well you know ? So my impression is they also did very well on on the the evaluation set but I I we have not seen you ve you have not seen any final results for that PhD C: And they used the main thing that that they used was spectral subtraction ? Professor D: There is a couple pieces to it There s a spectral subtraction style piece it was basically you know Wiener filtering And then then there was some p some modification of the cepstral parameters where they PhD A: actually something that s close to cepstral mean subtraction But the way the mean is adapted it s signal dependent I m I m So basically the mean is adapted during speech and not during silence But it s very close to to cepstral mean subtraction Professor D: But some people have done pause exactly that sort of thing of of and the I mean it s not To to look in pause speech only to try to m to measure these things during speech that s p that s not that uncommon But i it it so it looks like they did some some reasonable things and they are not things that we did precisely We did unreasonable things which because we like to try strange things and and and our things worked too And so it s possible that some combination of these different things that were done would be the best thing to do But the only caveat to that is that everybody s being real conscious of how much memory and how much CPU they are using because these standards are supposed to go on cell phones with m moderate resources in both respects PhD C: Did anybody do anything with the models as a an experiment ? Or Professor D: they did not report it if they did PhD C: N nobody reported it ? Professor D: I think everybody was focused elsewhere now one of the things that s nice about what we did is we do have a a a filtering which leads to a a a reduction in the bandwidth in the modulation spectrum which allows us to downsample So as a result of that we have a reduced transmission rate for the bits That was misreported the first time out It it said the same amount because for convenience sake in the particular way that this is being tested they were repeating the packets So it was they were s they they had twenty four hundred bits per second but they were literally creating forty eight hundred bits per second even though y it was just repeated PhD C: So you could ve had a repeat count in there or something Professor D: Well n I mean this was just a ph phoney thing just to to fit into the the software that was testing the errors channel errors and so on So so in reality if you put this this system in into the field it would be twenty four hundred bits per second not forty eight hundred So so that s a nice feature of what what we did but well we still have to see how it all comes out and then there s the whole standards process which is another thing altogether PhD C: When is the development set I mean the test set results due ? Like the day before you leave or something ?","The deployed model generally decreased error rates, but the extent to which it did so varied based on the language as well as where it was deployed. They learned that similar projects experienced the same challenges. Still, the model was not efficient and likely used too much CPU and memory for the benefit it provided." "Professor D: And the other systems were somewhat lower than that There was actually there was much less of a huge range than there was in Aurora one In Aurora one there were there were systems that ba basically did not improve things And here the the worst system pause still reduced the error rate by thirty three percent or something in development set So so you know sort of everybody is doing things between well roughly a third of the errors and half the errors being eliminated and varying on different test sets and so forth So I think pause It s probably a good time to look at what s really going on and seeing if there s a there s a way to combine the best ideas while at the same time not blowing up the amount of resources used cuz that s that s critical for this this test PhD C: Do we know anything about who who s was it that had the lowest on the dev set ? Professor D: the the there were two systems that were put forth by a combination of of French Telecom and Alcatel And they they differed in some respects but they e them one was called the French Telecom Alcatel System the other was called the Alcatel French Telecom System which is the biggest difference I think But but there are there are there are some other differences too and and they both did very well","The worst systems were still reducing errors between a third to half of the time. Though, there was a system in Aurora that did not do very well and the Alcatel systems seemed to do better." "Professor D: You know most of the time even I mean even though it s true that the overall number for Danish we did not improve it If you look at it individually what it really says is that there s Looks like out of the six cases between the different kinds of matching conditions pause out of the six cases there s basically a couple where it stays about the same three where it gets better and one where it gets worse PhD A: Y Actually for the Danish there s still some kind of mystery because when we use the straight features we are not able to get these nice number with the ICSI OGI one I mean We do not have this ninety three seventy eight we have eight so that s probably something wrong with the features that we get from OGI and Sunil is working on on trying to to check everything Professor D: Oh and and we have a little time on that and actually so We have a little bit of time on that actually We have a day or so so When when when do you folks leave ? Sunday ? So So until Saturday midnight or something we have W we we have time Well that would be good That would be good and you know i you when whenever anybody figures it out they should also for sure email Hynek because Hynek will be over there telling people what we did so he should know Good OK So So we will we will hold off on that a little bit I mean even with these results as they are it s it s it s really not that bad But but And it looks like the overall result as they are now even without you know any any bugs being fixed is that on the the other tasks we had this average of forty nine percent or so improvement And here we have somewhat better than that than the Danish and somewhat worse than that on the German but I mean it sounds like one way or another the methods that we are doing can reduce the error rate from from mel ceptrum pause down by you know pause a fourth of them to a half of them Somewhere in there depending on the pause exact case So So that s good I mean I think that one of the things that Hynek was talking about was understanding what was in the other really good proposals and and trying to see if what should ultimately be proposed is some combination of things if Cuz there s things that they are doing pause there that we certainly are not doing And there s things that we are doing that pause they are not doing And and they all seem like good things","The professor explained that while the Danish model did not improve overall, the results were mixed over six cases. The team's models led to improvements, even without bug fixes, but they were better on the Danish than German." "Professor D: right Right it does not work So in a way that s you know that s sort of the dominant thing is that even say on the development set stuff that we saw the the numbers that that Alcatel was getting when choosing out the best single numbers it was just you know it was not good enough for for pause a a for a real system You you you So we still have stuff to do and I do not know So looking at the data where you know what s the what s what s th what s characteristic i e I think that s that s a good thing Does a any you have any thoughts about what else y you are thinking that you did not get to that you would like to do if you had more time ? PhD E: Oh f a lot of thing Because we trying a lot of s pause thing and we does not work we remove these Maybe we trying again with the articulatory feature I do not know exactly because we tried we some one experiment that does not work forgot it something pause I do not know exactly because tsk comment maybe do better some step the general eh diagram I do not know exactly s to think what we can improve Professor D: cuz a lot of time it s true there were a lot of times when we ve tried something and it did not work right away even though we had an intuition that there should be something there And so then we would just stop it And one of the things I do not remember the details on but I remember at some point when you were working with a second stream and you tried a low pass filtering to cepstrum in some case you got Well but it was comment an MESSAGE like thing but it was not MESSAGE right ? you y I think in some case you got some little improvement but it was you know sort of a small improvement and it was a a big added complication so you dropped it But that was just sort of one try right ? You just took one filter threw it there right ? And it seems to me that if that is an important idea which you know might be that one could work at it for a while as you are saying And and you had you know you had the multi band things also and you know there was issue of that Barry s going to be continuing working on multi band things as well We were just talking about some some work that we are interested in Kind of inspired by the stuff by Larry Saul with the pause learning articulatory feature in I think in the case of his paper with sonorance based on multi band information where you have a a combination of gradient learning an and THEM and pause so I think that you know this is a this is a neat data set and then as we mentioned before we also have the the new digit set coming up from recordings in this room So there s a lot of things to work with and what I like about it in a way is that the results are still so terrible pause pause I mean they are much better than they were you know We are talking about thirty to sixty percent error rate reduction That s that s really great stuff to to do that in relatively short time But even after that it s still you know so poor that that no one could really use it So I think that s great that because and y also because again it s not something sometimes we ve gotten terrible results by taking some data and artificially you know convolving it with some room response or something we take a very at one point Brian and I went downstairs into the the basement where it was it was in a hallway where it was very reverberant and we we made some recordings there And then we we made a simulation of the of the room acoustics there and and applied it to other things and But it was all pretty artificial and and you know how often would you really try to have your most crucial conversations in this very reverberant hallway ? pause So pause This is what s nice about the Aurora data and the data here is that is that it s sort of a realistic room situation pause acoustics acoustic situation both terms in noise and reflections and so on and n n And with something that s still relatively realistic it s still very very hard to do very well So PhD A: so d well Actually this is tha that s why we well it s a different kind of data We are not we are not used to work with this kind of data That s why we should have a loo more closer look at what s going on So this would be the first thing and then of course try to well kind of debug what was wrong eh when we do Aurora test on the MESSAGE pause particularly and on the multi band Professor D: No I I think there s lots of lots of good things to do with this So So let s I guess pause You were going to say something else ? Oh OK What do you think ? PhD C: About other experiments ? now I m interested in pause looking at the experiments where you use pause data from multiple languages to train the neural net And I do not know how far or if you guys even had a chance to try that but pause that would be some it would be interesting to me PhD A: Again it s the kind of of thing that we were thin thinking thinking that it would work but it did not work And eh so there is kind of of pause not a bug but something wrong in what we are doing perhaps something wrong perhaps in the just in the the fact that the labels are What worked best is the hand labeled data so I do not know if we can get some hand labeled data from other languages It s not so easy to find But pause that would be something interesting t to to see Professor D: Also I mean there was just the whole notion of having multiple nets that were trained on different data So one form of different data was is from different languages but the other Well i in fact m in those experiments it was not so much combining multiple nets it was a single net that had different So first thing is would it be better if they were multiple nets for some reason ? Second thing is never mind the different languages just having acoustic conditions rather than training them all up in one would it be helpful to have different ones ? So That was a question that was kind of raised by Mike Shire s thesis and on in that case in terms of reverberation Right ? That that sometimes it might be better to do that But I do not think we know for sure So Right So next week we will not meet because you will be in Europe Whe when are you two getting back ? PhD A: You on Friday or S on Saturday or pause ? PhD E: because it s it s less expensive the price the price the ticket Professor D: that s right You ve got to S have a Saturday overnight right ? PhD A: I will be back on Tuesday PhD C: Where where s the meeting ? Professor D: Yep pause So we will skip next week and we will meet two weeks from now And I guess the main topic will be you telling us what happened so well if we do not have an anything else to discuss we should turn off the machine and then say the real nasty things PhD C: Should we do digits first ? Professor D: Oh digits ! Good point good thinking Why do not you go ahead","The team gathered some ideas on how they could further improve the model, perhaps by focusing more so on MSG and multi-band. The professor iterated that the task was pretty hard, and their model was still not good enough for a real system. The team was generally excited about the Aurora data, as it was more realistic, and about further pursuing the task." "Professor D: right Right it does not work So in a way that s you know that s sort of the dominant thing is that even say on the development set stuff that we saw the the numbers that that Alcatel was getting when choosing out the best single numbers it was just you know it was not good enough for for pause a a for a real system You you you So we still have stuff to do and I do not know So looking at the data where you know what s the what s what s th what s characteristic i e I think that s that s a good thing Does a any you have any thoughts about what else y you are thinking that you did not get to that you would like to do if you had more time ? PhD E: Oh f a lot of thing Because we trying a lot of s pause thing and we does not work we remove these Maybe we trying again with the articulatory feature I do not know exactly because we tried we some one experiment that does not work forgot it something pause I do not know exactly because tsk comment maybe do better some step the general eh diagram I do not know exactly s to think what we can improve Professor D: cuz a lot of time it s true there were a lot of times when we ve tried something and it did not work right away even though we had an intuition that there should be something there And so then we would just stop it And one of the things I do not remember the details on but I remember at some point when you were working with a second stream and you tried a low pass filtering to cepstrum in some case you got Well but it was comment an MESSAGE like thing but it was not MESSAGE right ? you y I think in some case you got some little improvement but it was you know sort of a small improvement and it was a a big added complication so you dropped it But that was just sort of one try right ? You just took one filter threw it there right ? And it seems to me that if that is an important idea which you know might be that one could work at it for a while as you are saying And and you had you know you had the multi band things also and you know there was issue of that Barry s going to be continuing working on multi band things as well We were just talking about some some work that we are interested in Kind of inspired by the stuff by Larry Saul with the pause learning articulatory feature in I think in the case of his paper with sonorance based on multi band information where you have a a combination of gradient learning an and THEM and pause so I think that you know this is a this is a neat data set and then as we mentioned before we also have the the new digit set coming up from recordings in this room So there s a lot of things to work with and what I like about it in a way is that the results are still so terrible pause pause I mean they are much better than they were you know We are talking about thirty to sixty percent error rate reduction That s that s really great stuff to to do that in relatively short time But even after that it s still you know so poor that that no one could really use it So I think that s great that because and y also because again it s not something sometimes we ve gotten terrible results by taking some data and artificially you know convolving it with some room response or something we take a very at one point Brian and I went downstairs into the the basement where it was it was in a hallway where it was very reverberant and we we made some recordings there And then we we made a simulation of the of the room acoustics there and and applied it to other things and But it was all pretty artificial and and you know how often would you really try to have your most crucial conversations in this very reverberant hallway ? pause So pause This is what s nice about the Aurora data and the data here is that is that it s sort of a realistic room situation pause acoustics acoustic situation both terms in noise and reflections and so on and n n And with something that s still relatively realistic it s still very very hard to do very well So PhD A: so d well Actually this is tha that s why we well it s a different kind of data We are not we are not used to work with this kind of data That s why we should have a loo more closer look at what s going on",The professor thought that they needed to work more and asked who had ideas on how they could pursue new directions. He himself wanted to try out playing with MSG and multi-band. He also thought that they should try learning more about different acoustic environments. "PhD C: About other experiments ? now I m interested in pause looking at the experiments where you use pause data from multiple languages to train the neural net And I do not know how far or if you guys even had a chance to try that but pause that would be some it would be interesting to me PhD A: Again it s the kind of of thing that we were thin thinking thinking that it would work but it did not work And eh so there is kind of of pause not a bug but something wrong in what we are doing perhaps something wrong perhaps in the just in the the fact that the labels are What worked best is the hand labeled data so I do not know if we can get some hand labeled data from other languages It s not so easy to find But pause that would be something interesting t to to see Professor D: Also I mean there was just the whole notion of having multiple nets that were trained on different data So one form of different data was is from different languages but the other Well i in fact m in those experiments it was not so much combining multiple nets it was a single net that had different So first thing is would it be better if they were multiple nets for some reason ? Second thing is never mind the different languages just having acoustic conditions rather than training them all up in one would it be helpful to have different ones ? So That was a question that was kind of raised by Mike Shire s thesis and on in that case in terms of reverberation Right ? That that sometimes it might be better to do that But I do not think we know for sure So Right So next week we will not meet because you will be in Europe Whe when are you two getting back ?",PhD C and the professor expressed a desire to learn more about nets that incorporated multiple languages. They thought they could explore whether it was better to have one net for many languages or different nets for each language. "The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID19 Pandemic A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference For those joining via video conference I would like to remind you that when speaking you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking As usual please direct your remarks through the chair I understand we do not have any ministerial announcements today so we will proceed to presenting petitions I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions For members participating in person we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once the petition is presented The first petition will be presented by MsMay Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Mr Chair it is an honour to rise in meeting number 22 of the COVID19 committee otherwise known as something like the House of Commons I am here to present two petitions containing hundreds of signatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the Peoples Republic of China particularly the practice that is alleged of involuntary organ harvesting The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the Peoples Republic of China The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was at the time this petition was submitted a future problem It remains an issue and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing or maintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline The Chair: Next we will go to Ms Kwan Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr Chair I rise to table two petitions The first petition deals with the COVID19 situation The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact on many Canadians nationwide especially those who have low to modest income small business gig workers freelancers artists film industry workers nonsalaried workers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability It further notes that rent mortgage and utility payments are due at the end of each month putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing It is paramount there be safe selfisolation opportunities for all individuals in this country To that end the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze eviction freeze mortgage freeze and utility freeze enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly universal direct payment of 2000 per month for all with an additional 250 per child immediately The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion Trans Mountain in building the pipeline brings massive environmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents Approximately 40000 barrels of oil have already leaked from existing Kinder Morgan pipelines including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007 I might note Mr Chair that just this past weekend there was yet another spill to the tune of 1195 barrels here in British Columbia There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill and the number of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of at least 15 first nations The Chair: May I interrupt for a moment Ms Kwan I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition the idea is to be as concise as possible Ms Kwan I will let you wrap up please Ms. Jenny Kwan: Thank you Mr Chair The petitioners are calling for the government to immediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia The Chair: Thank you We will now go to Mr Genuis Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr Chair I have four petitions to present today The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at the everexpanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms In particular the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to act on the issue of illegal guns The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia involve illegal firearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them The petition has two asks First of all it asks that we reverse the order in council banning certain firearms but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights of lawabiding citizens It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament not by the government acting in an unaccountable manner The second petition deals with Bill C8 which is the governments bill around conversion therapy The petitioners support efforts to ban conversion therapy They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation They are asking the government to support amendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and does not criminalize certain forms of counselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into The third petition is regarding Bill S204 a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad to receive an organ without consent dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China The petitioners are supportive of Bill S204 and want to see it move forward The final petition is with respect to Bill C7 There is been much discussion in this House about the need to do better in terms of longterm care Rather than working to do better in longterm care unfortunately we have seen the government removing vital safeguards in the area of euthanasia I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with the euthanasia regime The petitioners are particularly concerned about the governments plan to remove a 10day reflection period that normally takes place That period can already be waived under certain circumstances but Bill C7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved The petitioners are quite concerned about what is going on in Bill C7 and call for it to be stopped or amended The Chair: Presenting petitions We will proceed to statements by members We will start off with Mr Manly Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Mr Chair we are in the midst of a global pandemic and an economic shock Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country Racialized and marginalized communities have been disproportionally affected by the pandemic Thousands of seniors in longterm care facilities have died It is clear that we need system change In the past governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail It is time to bail out humanity and the planet No one will be immune from the threat of climate change and mass extinction Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy Humans created the economy We can choose to change it We must protect our environment or perish COVID19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action for the common good We need to do the same for the climate crisis because humanity and our planet are too big to fail The Chair: We will now go to Mr Spengemann Mr. Sven Spengemann (MississaugaLakeshore, Lib.): Mr Speaker today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day Underestimated and underreported elder abuse exists across the world At risk of neglect and assault many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our longterm care facilities They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities who have shown us resilience courage and selflessness who have made us stronger and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us They are parents and grandparents brothers and sisters friends and mentors We have not been there for them in the same way they have been there for us throughout their lives The Canadian Forces report alongside the climbing disproportionate death toll in our longterm care facilities has reconfirmed the ugly indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada In my community we mourn the deaths of 68 seniors from one longterm care facility alone Camilla Care We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us We must protect and uphold their human rights We must do better The Chair: Before proceeding I just want to bring up to the members in the background that we want to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral We will now move to Mr Barrett Mr. Michael Barrett (LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): During these trying times the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge They have made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe It would be impossible to list everyone who has emerged as a community hero but I would like to highlight a few like Lily an eightyearold from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank by building and selling squirrel picnic tables and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who is making masks for longterm care facilities and selling others in support of the Breast Cancer Action centre The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some 27000 in support of charitable groups throughout the region The Knights of Columbus in Kemptville are working overtime operating the local food bank Who can forget our topnotch health care workers like Hannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID19 testing centre ? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great To everyone working to make a difference and to all of our essential workers thank you Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (ScarboroughRouge Park, Lib.): Mr Chair the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876 and through residential schools the child welfare system our legal system and our police we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief Allan Adam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP Sadly the RCMP leadership has failed to acknowledge this reality and its root causes These same systems negatively impact black Canadians Antiblack racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed children being streamed or excluded from schools and negative police interaction due to profiling Black lives matter No single Canadian is responsible for the prevalence of systemic racism we all are Collectively we build institutions that discriminate based on race It is now time to reimagine and rework our institutions starting with our police to ensure that all Canadians can achieve their truest potential The Chair: MsLarouche you have the floor Ms. Andranne Larouche (Shefford, BQ): Thank you MrChair June15 is World Elder Abuse Awareness Day I want to remind members of the link between abuse and the problems of economic dependency among seniors Improving their purchasing power means reducing the risk of them falling victim to abusive people That is why the increase in the old age security benefit and the guaranteed income supplement must be extended beyond the pandemic In three weeks our seniors will receive their first cheque when they should be receiving their second A date must also be announced for the new horizons for seniors program which helps several groups develop projects to break the isolation of seniors In closing I would like to mention the organization Justice alternative et mdiation that during the pandemic along with other organizations in Shefford has set up the project Une histoire pour la tienne which also serves to mark this day It is a virtual meeting between young people and seniors allowing them to exchange some inspiring life experiences Since age prejudice is very much present I applaud this project which aims to make us understand each other better and judge each other less The Chair: We will now continue with Mr Sangha Mr. Ramesh Sangha (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr Chair in the time of this terrible crisis affecting all Canadians when we are all thinking about how best to deal with it let us all think about the people around us Let us show our representation not only to those in the sector of sanctioned workers but also to all those Canadians who day by day stand up and make a difference Every day I am proud of the reactions of Canadians to this crisis I want to acknowledge and celebrate all the contributions made by the people of Brampton Centre all religious institutions civil society and community organizations like Knights Table in my riding We are all standing together to fight COVID19 Let us continue working hard with that same spirit to get positive results out Thank you very much The Chair: I will proceed to Mr Ruff Mr. Alex Ruff (BruceGreyOwen Sound, CPC): Mr Chair whether graduating from elementary school high school Georgian College or graduating from colleges or universities across the country I am proud of the accomplishments of all the graduates across BruceGreyOwen Sound I would also like to congratulate and thank all the teachers and parents who have adapted to teaching online or from home and who have supported these graduates over the course of their academic careers I would like to extend special congratulations to Cameron Lovell who just graduated from grade eight as well as to Neebeesh and Neebin Elliott originally from the Nawash unceded first nation on the Bruce Peninsula who will be headed to Michigan State University and to Jared Lumley from Owen Sound who just graduated from my alma mater the Royal Military College of Canada The college motto of Truth Duty Valour is something all Canadians should aspire to live by I wish all the best to these graduates on their next adventures I and Canada can not wait to see how their dreams and goals impact and change the world I congratulate BruceGreyOwen Sound graduates The Chair: We will now go to MrCormier Mr. Serge Cormier (AcadieBathurst, Lib.): Today I pay tribute to RichardLosier an entrepreneur visionary and builder who died on June9 2020 surrounded by his family MrLosier is a giant in the Acadian Peninsula business community In1968 he cofounded StIsidore Asphalte a company that now has more than 200employees He also launched many other businesses over the years He was unifying and generous a philanthropist who cared about young people and never missed an opportunity to improve their lives I met MrLosier when I was 14years old and I can say that he has been a positive influence in my life Every time I met him he gave me a lot of advice and encouragement which I have never forgotten MrLosiers legacy to his community is invaluable His commitment remains an example for all of us to follow MrLosier now joins his wife Nolla I offer my most sincere condolences to his children Richard Jr Ronald Nathalie Caroline and Stphane and to his family and friends Rest in peace MrLosier You will be greatly missed Thank you for everything you have done for our region The Chair: We will now go to Ms Dabrusin Ms. Julie Dabrusin (TorontoDanforth, Lib.): Hello from my community in east end Toronto People talk about how a city the size of Toronto can be cold but that is far from the truth in my community I want to give a shoutout to our teachers like Mr Wong of Earl Grey Senior Public School who delivered homebaked cookies and handwritten notes to all of his students or Monsieur Steve who is offering online French classes or the teachers of Riverdale Collegiate who paraded through our streets to celebrate our graduates Our local Michael Garron Hospital put out a call for community members to sew masks and received over 60000 masks including those made by Lisa Tancre of Chartwell Avondale Retirement Residence Michelle Beaton organized a front window scavenger hunt to entertain children and their families Restaurants even while facing adversity have been generously donating food like the members of the Leslieville BIA or Mezes There are so many more stories of generosity that I could share but I am out of time I thank everyone who has stepped up We all appreciate all of their hard work The Chair: We will now go to Ms Sahota Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Mr Chair on Saturday night Calgarians particularly those in the northeast in my riding of Calgary Skyview witnessed a devastating storm the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime Homes vehicles community buildings and structures suffered significant damage due to large hail floods and high winds People acted quickly to seek shelter I am so grateful that there have been no reports of personal injury or loss of life I went around the community yesterday to survey the damage It is extensive My heart aches for those who have been impacted by the storm in an already incredibly difficult time but we are resilient We know that in the coming weeks there will be a lot of cleanup required both to personal property and in the community I know my constituents and we will help one another get through this together I will work hard to do everything I can to help rebuild this community The Chair: MrSerr you have the floor Mr. Marc Serr (Nickel Belt, Lib.): Thank you MrChair I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the people of West Nippissing who organized Pride activities to celebrate the LGBTQ community in June This week we are also celebrating National Public Service Week I thank the public servants for their dedication to the Nickel Belt community and the Valley East and RaysideBalfour areas Mr. Bob Saroya (MarkhamUnionville, CPC): Mr Chair when COVID19 began spreading across Ontario Markham like many other communities was unprepared Our frontline health care workers did not have enough personal protective equipment to do their jobs safely When Markham residents heard about these shortages my office was flooded with calls from people who had PPE and wanted to donate Since then my office has been able to deliver tens of thousands of PPE supplies to frontline health care workers and five masks to each family in need This pandemic has shown that no matter what the challenge is the Markham community will overcome it Today I would like to thank the frontline health care workers who are doing incredible work I would also like to thank all those who have helped in Markhams hour of need The Chair: I understand we had a bit of a glitch there I am sorry With the pause we thought that was the end of it MrSerr I would ask you to continue I understand you started to switch languages Please continue You have 30seconds Mr. Marc Serr: Thank you I am switching to English now Thank you to our nurses doctors pharmacists cashiers janitors Thank you to various retail workers and first responders dealing with COVID19 You keep our communities safe and healthy and you feed us Your dedication and sacrifice are greatly appreciated As we start to see local businesses reopen it is important for all of us to remember to follow best practices outlined by local public health Our frontline workers deserve our respect It is important for all of us to respect social distancing to protect all workers and their families Together we can remain strong and united as we continue to face this challenge together The Chair: Again my apologies for skipping over there but now we will to to Ms McLeod Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Mr Chair in commemoration of Italian Heritage Month I would like to pay tribute to the Colombo Lodge and Italian Cultural Centre in Kamloops British Columbia The Colombo Lodge was founded in 1914 and is an integral part of our community Recently they began Colombo Cares takehome dinners with proceeds distributed to different nonprofit organizations throughout the region Last month they very generously gave away hundreds of dinners to Royal Inland Hospital staff and paramedics for their tireless work throughout the pandemic In their own words they say Colombo Lodge is very proud of the Italians that have made Kamloops their home Community members of Italian ancestrypast and presenthave helped and continue to help Kamloops prosper as a giving welcoming and inclusive community Personally I want to thank all members for their friendship and generosity over the years Our community is forever grateful for their kindness The Chair: We will now proceed to Mr Harris Mr. Jack Harris (St. John's East, NDP): Mr Chair many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are facing a serious financial crisis Most people with disabilities are waiting to be included in the Liberals promised program Fish plant workers will need support to avoid a disastrous year Many small businesses do not qualify for programs Municipalities need emergency help to meet the crisis People are worried about what will happen when the CERB runs out in two weeks time and the coming tourism season looks very grim The province itself is in serious financial crisis due to the pandemic and the decline in oil prices The federal government must overhaul and enhance the fiscal stabilization program to help Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and other oilproducing provinces through this crisis Both the province and the oil and gas industry players have committed to net zero emissions by 2050 This is a challenge and an opportunity to transition to a sustainable energy future but it will require significant investment and support by government to keep the industry strong and make this a just transition for workers Much has been done Much more needs to be done The Chair: MsGaudreau you have the floor Ms. Marie-Hlne Gaudreau (LaurentidesLabelle, BQ): MrChair all 44elected municipal officials in the riding of LaurentidesLabelle and I have sent a letter to the government asking that cellular and highspeed Internet networks be made available to all The crisis has accelerated the demonstration of the need for these networks in daily life The territorial complexity of the Laurentians means that there are areas where the signal is weak unstable or nonexistent There is an urgent and essential need to change the infrastructure of the current networks Also because of the lockdown Internet failures are being felt and they prevent distance learning telemedicine and teleworking among other things How can our municipalities develop economically if they can not provide their community with adequate communication tools ? We are therefore calling on the government to put the interests of its people first by investing massively right now in the construction of highspeed Internet and cellular infrastructure Mr. Kevin Waugh (SaskatoonGrasswood, CPC): I rise today to pay tribute to Sir Winston Churchill the former prime minister of Great Britain and one of the greatest leaders history has ever known In what can only be called a lifetime of service Churchills contributions to the Commonwealth and to the world are without equal During the Second World War he led the allied forces in Europe against the tyranny and fascism of Adolph Hitler and his Nazi regime When our world was in its darkest hour Churchills leadership was a beacon of hope and freedom I am reminded of something he once said All the greatest things are simple and many can be expressed in a single word : freedom justice honour duty mercy hope Sir Winston Churchill himself embodied all of these great things and will forever be a symbol of freedom democracy and hope Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): Mr Chair I would like to add my voice to the recognition and celebration of Pride Month which is celebrated annually during June Pride Month is important for Canadians because we can be proud of who we are and celebrate our diversity This June is different from previous years as we can not celebrate in person all together However I know the ongoing pandemic will not stop us from showing our love and support for the LGBTQ community To celebrate Pride Month this year my office distributed 3000 pride maple leaf pins across the country whoever asked received one Although the majority was sent to constituents in my riding over 500 pins were sent to the neighbouring ridings of LanarkFrontenacKingston LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes and HastingsLennox and Addington It warms my heart to see so many Canadians showing their support Happy Pride everyone The Chair: We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers Please note that we will suspend the proceedings twice to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to substitute for each other safely MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): MrChair I am very pleased to take part in todays meeting of this parliamentary committee Canada has been dealing with the COVID19 pandemic for three months now The situation now seems to be improving although we must remain vigilant Economically business people and the entire Canadian economy depend on government decisions My question is very simple : when will the economic update take place ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): MrChair I thank the hon member for his question I agree with him that Canada and Canadians are doing an excellent and difficult job in the fight against coronavirus As for the economy our government is there for Canadians for workers and for businesses and it will continue to be Mr. Grard Deltell: Canadians business people and businesses want to know where the government is headed When will the economic update take place ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair Canadians know that the government is there to support them Eight Mr. Grard Deltell: Canadians and Quebeckers also know that the Government of Quebec will table its economic update this week Why is not the federal government doing the same ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I am pleased to explain to hon members and to Canadians what the government is doing for the economy Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr Chair it is a real pleasure for me to explain to the minister and everybody in the House of Commons that today the Saskatchewan government will table its economic update Why can not Ottawa do that ? The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I am delighted to have the opportunity to share with Canadians what our government is doing to support workers businesses and the economy Eight million Canadians have received the CERB essential support for Canadian workers and their families The Chair: We will now go back to Mr Deltell Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr Chair 11 days ago the Newfoundland government tabled its own economic update We see governments acting correctly for their people except for the Liberal government which can not table an economic update When will the Liberal government table an economic update which Canadians would like to see ? The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I am delighted to share with the member opposite and with Canadians what we are doing practically that has meaning for Canadians Let me talk about what we are doing for Canadian businesses Nearly 670000 Canadian businesses have received support The Chair: We will go back to Mr Deltell Mr. Grard Deltell: In Canada the Quebec government will table its economic update this week The Saskatchewan government tabled its economic update today The Newfoundland government has tabled its economic update Everybody is working hard in Canada and the business community would like to know where the Liberal government is going The question is crystal clear When will the Liberal government table an economic update ? The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair Canadian workers and Canadian businesses want to know that our government is here to support them I have shared with this House our support for Canadian workers through the CERB I have spoken about the CEBA and let me point out that more than 26 billion of support has been given through that essential program Let me talk about the wage subsidy More than 26 million The Chair: We will return to Mr Deltell Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair this is starting to get interesting the minister is revealing some of these expenses Could the minister tell us how much the government has spent in the last three months ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I will continue in French by explaining what our government is doing for Canadians and workers Mr. Grard Deltell: Mr Chair this is a little bit concerning for all Canadians because this government can not say when they will table the economic update can not identify how much money they have spent in the last three months and can not say what is the deficit of Canada Is somebody in this government running this country correctly ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair absolutely we are running this country and we are supporting our economy In fact we appreciate that Canada currently is experiencing its greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression That is why we have devoted nearly 11 of GDP to support Canadian workers and Canadian businesses I want to assure Canadians The Chair: We will now continue with MsNormandin MsNormandin you have the floor Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ): MrChair there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes but they get along and speak as one such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business On reading section91 of the Constitution Act 1982 which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers It is Quebec and the provinces that hire the medical personnel doctors nurses and caretakers It is Quebec and the provinces that are responsible for purchasing the necessary equipment It is Quebec and the provinces that know what is happening on the ground and what their needs are Will the government do the only thing within its authority which is to take the cheque sign it and put it in the mail ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I thank the hon member for her question We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces especially in our national fight against the coronavirus I agree with the hon member that we must give financial support to the provinces including Quebec absolutely I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today right now Ms. Christine Normandin: MrChair I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally that is what I am asking There is a state of emergency In the past we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec for which there is no agreement and therefore no transfer of money Will the federal government send the money free of conditions ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair the hon member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques I can not agree because today at this time at the request of the Premier of Quebec the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today they are there to save the lives of seniors The Chair: We now return to MsNormandin Ms. Christine Normandin: It was indeed at Quebecs request What I am saying is that at present the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions It is urgent that the money be transferred The federal governments job here is to sign the cheque and send it to the provinces The governments job is also to make Parliament work This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work among other things to send money to people living with disabilities to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon member for her question MrChair I agree with the hon member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec That said I hope that the hon member will agree with me that being there for Quebecs seniors that saving the lives of Quebecs seniors is much more than simply signing cheques I am very proud of the work the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are doing I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada for Quebec and who are doing an important and excellent job Ms. Christine Normandin: MrChair I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there should not be any Right now the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our longterm care facilities where the need is desperate Quebec and the provinces know exactly what their needs are Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces including Quebec We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by 500million to help them prepare for COVID19 outbreaks This funding is in addition to the 40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories That is a lot of money It is strong endorsement The Chair: We will now go to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Mr Chair systemic racism is killing people It is killing black people and it is killing indigenous people Recently Rodney Levi was another victim of systemic racism He was killed in New Brunswick by the RCMP To deal with systemic racism we need systemic change Will the Liberal government commit to systemic change so that not another life is ever taken again ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question and I will take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada Our government absolutely acknowledges that systemic racism exists in Canada It exists in all of our institutions including the police and the RCMP I agree with the member opposite that now is the moment to fight this Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response but there are some specific actions we need to take There are movements Black Lives Matter as a movement is calling for the defunding of police What they are saying is we need to make better choices with how money is being spent When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check money financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers not the police Is the government prepared to fund and prioritize health care workers over the police ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada and I would like to speak about that for a moment I spoke to Perry Bellegarde this morning because it is such a crucial issue We can describe it as the original sin of our country I absolutely agree that we need root and branch reform including in how policing is done in Canada Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP ? Will the Liberals commit to that change ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP We all accept that The Chair: We will go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair will the government commit to ensuring that deescalation receives priority ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me continue Mr Chair Systemic racism exists in all of our federal institutions including the RCMP It is time to put an end to it Let me just say The Chair: We will go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair I am not getting an answer Will the Prime Minister or the Liberal government commit to something simple and ensure that at the federal level racial profiling street checks and carding are expressly prohibited ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair sadly I can not agree that rooting out systemic racism is going to be simple but I can agree that racial profiling is absolutely inappropriate It is not something that we should The Chair: We will go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Well I am going to try to get another commitment from the government because they do not seem able to commit to something as clear as ending racial profiling We know that millions of Canadians in a couple of weeks are going to be faced with the reality of their CERB ending These families are worried about how they are going to put food on the table because they can not return to a job Will the Liberal government commit today so that those families will have some concrete support yes or no ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair let me be clear as I was in my previous answer that our government clearly is opposed to racial profiling This is a wrong practice and we are very clear about our position there Now when it comes to the CERB I absolutely share the concern of the member opposite The Canadian economy is in its direst state since the Great Depression We know that all the jobs have not yet come back We know that Canadian workers Canadian families continue to need The Chair: We will now pause for a short time to allow staff to change within the safety parameters for the COVID19 virus and as we resume we will go to Ms Harder","The discussion about the questions of minister started with the issue of economic update, and then it turned to discuss the federal support for the provinces. The following topics were systemic racism. Hon. Chrystia Freeland emphasized that systemic racism had existed in all federal institutions in Canada." "Ms. Christine Normandin (Saint-Jean, BQ): MrChair there are times when Quebec and the provinces are not just two solitudes but they get along and speak as one such as when the time comes to tell the government to mind its own business On reading section91 of the Constitution Act 1982 which sets out the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government nowhere do I find that the federal government must meddle by attaching conditions to health transfers It is Quebec and the provinces that hire the medical personnel doctors nurses and caretakers It is Quebec and the provinces that are responsible for purchasing the necessary equipment It is Quebec and the provinces that know what is happening on the ground and what their needs are Will the government do the only thing within its authority which is to take the cheque sign it and put it in the mail ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I thank the hon member for her question We fully understand the importance of federal support for the provinces especially in our national fight against the coronavirus I agree with the hon member that we must give financial support to the provinces including Quebec absolutely I would also like to point out the importance of the support of the Canadian Armed Forces who are doing an important and excellent job in Quebec and Ontario today right now Ms. Christine Normandin: MrChair I am glad to see that there is recognition of the importance of transferring this money My question is whether it can be transferred unconditionally that is what I am asking There is a state of emergency In the past we have seen that it takes a long time to negotiate conditions with the federal government We saw it in the case of the Quebec City tramway and we are still seeing it now in the case of transfers for housing in Quebec for which there is no agreement and therefore no transfer of money Will the federal government send the money free of conditions ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair the hon member said in her first question that the only thing the federal government had to do on health care was to sign the cheques I can not agree because today at this time at the request of the Premier of Quebec the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today they are there to save the lives of seniors The Chair: We now return to MsNormandin Ms. Christine Normandin: It was indeed at Quebecs request What I am saying is that at present the provinces are unanimously asking that there be no conditions It is urgent that the money be transferred The federal governments job here is to sign the cheque and send it to the provinces The governments job is also to make Parliament work This is where there should be negotiations so that we can work among other things to send money to people living with disabilities to make sure we fight CERB fraud and to make sure that court time limits are effective in the current crisis Can the government focus on the issue in order to respect the provinces and transfer money for health care ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: I thank the hon member for her question MrChair I agree with the hon member that the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are in Quebec today at the request of the Province of Quebec That said I hope that the hon member will agree with me that being there for Quebecs seniors that saving the lives of Quebecs seniors is much more than simply signing cheques I am very proud of the work the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are doing I think we all should thank these people who are working for Canada for Quebec and who are doing an important and excellent job Ms. Christine Normandin: MrChair I think the Deputy Prime Minister misunderstood me when I was talking about the importance of acting quickly Negotiations between the government and the provinces take an awfully long time because the federal government decides to place conditions where there should not be any Right now the only important thing is to transfer the money quickly so that it can be used in our hospitals and our longterm care facilities where the need is desperate Quebec and the provinces know exactly what their needs are Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I would like to point out the extent to which the federal government is there to support the provinces including Quebec We have increased funding to the provinces and territories by 500million to help them prepare for COVID19 outbreaks This funding is in addition to the 40billion that we already provide annually to the provinces and territories That is a lot of money It is strong endorsement",Christine Normandin mentioned that in the past it took a long time for the provinces to negotiate conditions with the federal government. Christine Normandin wanted to know the future situation: whether the federal government would send the money unconditionally. "Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Mr Chair systemic racism is killing people It is killing black people and it is killing indigenous people Recently Rodney Levi was another victim of systemic racism He was killed in New Brunswick by the RCMP To deal with systemic racism we need systemic change Will the Liberal government commit to systemic change so that not another life is ever taken again ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair I thank the member opposite for the extremely important question and I will take this opportunity to acknowledge the work that he has done for many years fighting racism in Canada Our government absolutely acknowledges that systemic racism exists in Canada It exists in all of our institutions including the police and the RCMP I agree with the member opposite that now is the moment to fight this Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair I thank the Deputy Prime Minister very much for the response but there are some specific actions we need to take There are movements Black Lives Matter as a movement is calling for the defunding of police What they are saying is we need to make better choices with how money is being spent When someone is in need of a wellness check or a mental health check money financing and support should go to mental health workers and health care workers not the police Is the government prepared to fund and prioritize health care workers over the police ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair the member quite rightly began his questions by speaking about systemic racism against indigenous people in Canada and I would like to speak about that for a moment I spoke to Perry Bellegarde this morning because it is such a crucial issue We can describe it as the original sin of our country I absolutely agree that we need root and branch reform including in how policing is done in Canada Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair will the Liberal government commit to a review of the use of force as outlined for the RCMP ? Will the Liberals commit to that change ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr Chair the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety had many conversations last week with the RCMP We all accept that The Chair: We will go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair will the government commit to ensuring that deescalation receives priority ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Let me continue Mr Chair Systemic racism exists in all of our federal institutions including the RCMP It is time to put an end to it Let me just say","Hon. Chrystia Freeland stated that there had existed racism in Canada. Systemic racism had existed in all federal institutions, including the RCMP." "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Thank you Mr Chair I want to thank the honourable member for that question We know that at this time Canada must show leadership in the face of global challenges More than ever Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion supporting the global fight against COVID19 addressing climate change leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer more inclusive and prosperous The Chair: We will go back to Mr Barrett Mr. Michael Barrett: Mr Chair I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week who is advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay Like many people Jean is an American who owns a property on our side of the border These people are taxpaying members of our communities These folks have plans in place to follow all Canadian quarantine rules They are concerned about leaving their properties uncared for over the summer Will folks like Jean be allowed to cross the border to check on their properties this summer ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Thank you very much Mr Chair Of course our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians That is why we put in place these restrictions for nonessential travel and have required through the Public Health Agency of Canada a 14day quarantine I do not know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place Mr. Michael Barrett: With nine branches throughout my riding the Royal Canadian Legion offers a great deal to veterans and rural communities alike They have been experiencing hardship and a loss of revenue to the point where they may be forced to shut their doors The Zone G2 commander and local mayors such as Roger Haley have reached out to me expressing their dire need Will the government offer support to Legions across the country so they can continue to carry out their vital work for our veterans ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Thank you very much Mr Chair Yes we have done a lot to help support groups like the Legions There is a 350million emergency community support fund If they are supplying any help to people regarding COVID this fund is there Indeed we are doing everything we can to make sure that we help the Legions and other groups that do so much to help veterans right across the country Mr. Michael Barrett: On May 21 the minister stated that her team was working as quickly as it could to fill the gaps in CEBA It has now been three weeks and many business owners such as mortgage broker Corinna SmithGatcke are still left in the lurch amid the delays which are pushing businesses closer to shutting their doors for good Will these businesses have access to CEBA before it is too late for them ? Hon. Mary Ng: Thank you Mr Chair and I thank the honourable member for that really important question on our Canadian small businesses Those businesses can absolutely have access to the loan at their financial institution this Friday and I would encourage them to go and see their bank or credit union I want businesses to know that nothing is more important for us than making sure they get the support they need during this difficult time Mr. Michael Barrett: The County Road 43 expansion project is critical for my riding and the region as a whole This project will widen the road increasing safety for the 18000 motorists who travel the road every day It is been 334 days since the provincial and local governments announced funding but there has been nothing from this Liberal government It is been 181 days since Minister McKenna told me her staff were reviewing the project Today there is still nothing and for the last month the ministers team has not even found the time to respond to my request for an update Will Minister McKenna finally stop with the delays and commit to funding this project today ? Hon. Catherine McKenna (Minister of Infrastructure and Communities): Mr Chair as the member opposite knows we work with provinces and territories to advance our infrastructure investments We are making investments across the country They are making a real difference in peoples lives We are always happy to work with members of Parliament but they must also work with provinces and territories so that projects are advanced by them to our office The Chair: We will now continue with Mrs Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall (YorktonMelville, CPC): Thank you Chair Through you has Mr MacAulay read ombudsman Daltons May 2020 report Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans : A comparative analysis of benefit regimes ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair I apologize but I will have to ask my honourable colleague to repeat the question The Chair: Mrs Wagantall we will freeze the time so that there is no extra time taken Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Thank you Chair My question was whether Mr MacAulay has read ombudsman Daltons May 2020 report Financial Compensation for Canadian Veterans : A comparative analysis of benefit regimes Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Thank you very much Mr Chair I appreciate my honourable colleagues question Of course I appreciate Mr Daltons input and all that he has done for veterans We have discussed it many times I have done everything and worked with him in order to make sure that we bring the proper compensation to veterans The Chair: We will go back to Mrs Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: As a result of that study are the financial outcomes Canada seeks to provide for ill and injured veterans now clearly defined within the Department of Veterans Affairs ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair as the member would know I am to bring a report to the veterans affairs committee and there are a number of things done in order to make sure that report is The Chair: We will go back to Mrs Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Then I would suggest that we get our committee up and going as it should be Where are these financial directions published ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Well of course lockdown but just under 90 million that the government put in supplementary estimates to make sure we address the backlog for Veterans Affairs It is a major help The Chair: We will go back to Mrs Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Minister are Canadian Armed Forces members provided with a copy of this document ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair my honourable colleague would have to ask the Canadian Armed Forces that question Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: There are three different providing lifetime benefits for ill and injured veterans In Ombudsman Daltons recent report did any one of these three provide the best compensation in all nine scenarios that were studied ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Of course as she knows there is been a lot of work done in order to make sure that we provide the proper compensation to veterans We are working very hard with a lot of help from Mr Dalton to make sure that the appropriate The Chair: We will now continue with Mrs Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyeas legal case against Seamus ORegan and the Liberal government a joint statement says Canadians especially all Veterans and their families are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families Does Mr MacAulay agree with this statement ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans We are always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation I do not think the term would be appropriate but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it They defend our democracy The Chair: We will go back to Ms Wagantall Oh I am sorry Ms. Andranne Larouche: MrChair I have a point of order The interpretation has not worked for a few interventions It is difficult to follow the exchange between the hon member and the minister The Chair: We are having a problem with the interpretation Minister and Ms Wagantall you are joining us virtually I am wondering if you have the right language on at the bottom of your screen We will start with that for troubleshooting Very good Minister MacAulay what do you have ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I have English Mr Chair The Chair: Very good Then we will check on our side MsLarouche did I understand correctly that the interpretation did not work for both speakers ? Ms. Andranne Larouche: The sound did not allow the interpreters to do their job It seemed to be a problem with the sound The Chair: In that case I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth We will see how that works I am looking at the screen and I notice the mike is a little bit far Could we bend it in a little bit more ? I appreciate that Thank you for your patience We will give it another try Ms Wagantall please go ahead Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: On a point of order quite often while I am trying to speak there are lots of other voices in the background The Chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly Just whisper among yourselves if you have something to say We will take this one from the top We have a minute and 45 seconds left Ms Wagantall please proceed with your next question Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: You said next question so we are not going backwards Chair ? The Chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay ? No ? We will go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer We will start at 27 seconds freeze the clock and hear his answer Then because of all of the confusion we will start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Should I repeat the question sir ? The Chair: Please do The clock is frozen After we go through the question and the answer we will start the clock again Mr Wagantall please repeat the question Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Thank you Chair In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyeas legal case against Seamus ORegan and the Liberal government a joint statement says Canadians especially all Veterans and their families are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families Does Mr MacAulay agree with this statement ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair I appreciate my honourable colleagues question and concern Of course I agree Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible That is what we will do and want to do The Chair: Ms Wagantall we will start the clock again You have one minute and 45 seconds remaining Please proceed Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: If that is the case is Minister MacAulay aware of the practice of redflagging veterans files ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair I am not aware Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Since the deputy minister has indicated that he runs the department will the minister ask him for the names of veterans and the dates and the reasons that they are or have been redflagged by VAC ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair I would certainly ask any veteran or anybody who has a concern to contact my office I will do anything I can to make sure that the veterans The Chair: We will go back to Ms Wagantall Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Do the most ill and injured still receive from the pension up to 300000 less for life ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair as you know and as the Prime Minister indicated when the pension for life was put in place it was stated that if anybody receives lessthe Prime Minister himself indicated it quite clearlythat must be adjusted Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: For veterans in similar circumstances should the date of their application for compensation be a factor in determining whether they are treated equitably ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Yes of course the date is when the compensation would start Of course it is very important and very appropriate The Chair: Now we will proceed to Mr Lloyd Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon RiverParkland, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Retired Major Mark Campbell in my riding of Sturgeon RiverParkland lost both legs in the line of duty in Afghanistan He is an avid sport shooter but understandably due to his disability he is very limited in the kinds of firearms he can use and all of these firearms have now been banned under the Liberal OIC My question to the Minister of Public Safety is this : Did their department do a legal analysis and consider the section 15 charter rights of disabled Canadians not to be discriminated against when they passed their OIC ? Hon. Bill Blair: Yes there was a very thorough analysis done by the justice department to ensure that the prohibitions we put in place were in fact charter compliant Let me also say Mr Chair how important it was that we prohibited weapons that were not designed for sporting purposes at all In fact they were designed for soldiers to use in combat They have no place in a civil society We have prohibited them and we believeand this has been echoed by many people across the countrythat this will make Canadians safer Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr Chair is the minister aware that the AR15 is the most popular sporting rifle in Canada and is he aware that disabled veterans like Major Mark Campbell are unable to participate in the sport of sport shooting because of his OIC ? Hon. Bill Blair: I can assure the member that what I am aware of is that the AR15 and other weapons like them have been used in mass killings in Canada on many occasions such as at cole Polytechnique at Dawson College again at the Quebec mosque and in Moncton The AR15s in particular were also used at the terrible tragedy in places like Sandy Hook where a bunch of kids were killed so there is no place for","This part mainly discussed a number of financial questions happening during the pandemic. Those involved the foreign businessmen, veterans, and rural communities, project to widen the road. There followed a series of detailed questions and answers about veterans' compensation and pension." "Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Thank you Mr Chair I want to thank the honourable member for that question We know that at this time Canada must show leadership in the face of global challenges More than ever Canada is playing a positive role by being a champion in diversity and inclusion supporting the global fight against COVID19 addressing climate change leading peace and security efforts and helping the most vulnerable A seat on the Security Council will allow Canada to be a strong voice for a fairer more inclusive and prosperous The Chair: We will go back to Mr Barrett Mr. Michael Barrett: Mr Chair I received a letter from Bob Anderson this week who is advocating for his neighbours like Jean Grevelding who owns a cottage at Butternut Bay Like many people Jean is an American who owns a property on our side of the border These people are taxpaying members of our communities These folks have plans in place to follow all Canadian quarantine rules They are concerned about leaving their properties uncared for over the summer Will folks like Jean be allowed to cross the border to check on their properties this summer ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Thank you very much Mr Chair Of course our priority is and always has been and always must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians That is why we put in place these restrictions for nonessential travel and have required through the Public Health Agency of Canada a 14day quarantine I do not know the specifics of the person for whom you advocate but we want to make sure that if they come into Canada it is for an essential purpose and that they do it safely and respect the quarantine that has been put in place","Hon. Bill Blair, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, stated that the priority must be the protection of the health and safety of Canadians, and restrictions for non-essential travel, and a 14-day quarantine was required for those who had an essential purpose." "Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: In the undisclosed settlement of Sean Bruyeas legal case against Seamus ORegan and the Liberal government a joint statement says Canadians especially all Veterans and their families are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families Does Mr MacAulay agree with this statement ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I can assure you that anybody is welcome to enter any discussion on compensation of veterans We are always open to what we can do in order to make sure that we provide appropriate compensation I do not think the term would be appropriate but it would provide some compensation to veterans who truly deserve it They defend our democracy The Chair: We will go back to Ms Wagantall Oh I am sorry Ms. Andranne Larouche: MrChair I have a point of order The interpretation has not worked for a few interventions It is difficult to follow the exchange between the hon member and the minister The Chair: We are having a problem with the interpretation Minister and Ms Wagantall you are joining us virtually I am wondering if you have the right language on at the bottom of your screen We will start with that for troubleshooting Very good Minister MacAulay what do you have ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: I have English Mr Chair The Chair: Very good Then we will check on our side MsLarouche did I understand correctly that the interpretation did not work for both speakers ? Ms. Andranne Larouche: The sound did not allow the interpreters to do their job It seemed to be a problem with the sound The Chair: In that case I would ask both members to maybe put their mike a little bit close to their mouth We will see how that works I am looking at the screen and I notice the mike is a little bit far Could we bend it in a little bit more ? I appreciate that Thank you for your patience We will give it another try Ms Wagantall please go ahead Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: On a point of order quite often while I am trying to speak there are lots of other voices in the background The Chair: I would ask everyone to please be on mute as well as for anyone in the chamber to please refrain from speaking loudly Just whisper among yourselves if you have something to say We will take this one from the top We have a minute and 45 seconds left Ms Wagantall please proceed with your next question Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: You said next question so we are not going backwards Chair ? The Chair: Did we have an answer from Minister MacAulay ? No ? We will go to Minister MacAulay to finish up the answer We will start at 27 seconds freeze the clock and hear his answer Then because of all of the confusion we will start at one minute and 45 seconds when we get going again Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Should I repeat the question sir ? The Chair: Please do The clock is frozen After we go through the question and the answer we will start the clock again Mr Wagantall please repeat the question Mrs. Cathay Wagantall: Thank you Chair In the undisclosed settlement to Sean Bruyeas legal case against Seamus ORegan and the Liberal government a joint statement says Canadians especially all Veterans and their families are encouraged to enter the public debate about policies and programs that affect our Veterans and their families Does Mr MacAulay agree with this statement ? Hon. Lawrence MacAulay: Mr Chair I appreciate my honourable colleagues question and concern Of course I agree Anybody is quite open to indicate whatever they wish in order to make sure we provide as appropriate a compensation as possible You can never totally compensate veterans truly for what they deserve but we want to make sure we provide the best compensation possible That is what we will do and want to do","Hon. Lawrence MacAulay assured that everyone was welcome to enter the discussion to provide as appropriate compensation as possible. On the other side, it represented democracy." "The Chair: We will go to Mr Lloyd Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr Chair it has been months since the Liberals shut down this Parliament and months since the Minister of Finance should have presented a budget or at least an economic update to Canadians Since then we have seen billions spent with little oversight and no plan The minister says that he needs certainty before he can table a budget Well that did not stop Stephen Harper and the Conservatives from tabling a budget in the depth of the last great recession When are these Liberals finally going to take their job seriously and table an economic update ? Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance): Mr Chair we are taking this very seriously We are working for Canadians and bringing forward supports to make sure that businesses workers and Canadians can put food on the table and pay their rent We will continue to support Canadians and when we have a clear projection to present we will do that Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr Chair the results are in and businesses are not happy with the socalled support programs from these Liberals In fact the oil and gas industry has been shut out of many of these economic programs When is the government going to recognize that their business support plans have been an absolute failure with only a fraction of the billions promised being accessible to businesses ? Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr Chair our government has taken swift and immediate action to support our sector throughout this challenging time We had the BCAP which is critically important to providing liquidity to support the SMEs that make up 85 of the jobs in our sector It has taken an enormous team effort People are working around the clock to get money where it needs to be We are helping hardworking Canadians small businesses and large businesses right across the country but in particular in our energy sector Mr. Dane Lloyd: Mr Chair I am pleased to see the Minister of Natural Resources online He tweeted recently to praise the Alberta Carbon Trunk Line and the North West Redwater Partnership refinery in my riding Can the minister tell us what if any support they have given to the innovative carbon capture and sequestration technology in this country ? Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Mr Chair we see carbon capture and sequestration as an integral part of lowering emissions making emissions more competitive and making our oil and gas industry more competitive We are seeing where the investment dollars are going They are going to jurisdictions that are committed to lowering emissions Obviously this government is committing to net zero Mr. Dane Lloyd: I note that the minister could not name a single example of government support for carbon capture utilization and sequestration technology We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID19 pandemic but Canadians are living with another horrific reality that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic Reports indicate that in the past four years 14000 Canadians have died and the numbers during COVID19 have been skyrocketing with British Columbia seeing a 39 increase this year alone I know this because I have lost a family member to a fentanyl overdose When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair I share the members deep sadness about the number of lives we have lost to opioid overdose Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use such as prescription Suboxone and methadone We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported communitybased projects that work with people who are using substances We need to understand that this is a complex issue and we need to support people to get the help they need The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes (AlgomaManitoulinKapuskasing, NDP)): The hon member for ThrseDeBlainville Ms. Louise Chabot (Thrse-De Blainville, BQ): MadamChair I will come back to the bill introduced last week As parliamentarians we felt like we were watching a very bad play as I imagine the public did I say that it was theatre even though it should not be in this place The government decided to stage a play and act alone and unfortunately there were several acts missing A very important part of this bill was about supporting people with disabilities in this time of crisis However the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties even though it is in a minority position Despite this arrogance the Bloc Qubcois proposed solutions One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities but the Conservatives did not want to do that We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities but the government defeated the motion We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities but we are still in the dark Why are we abandoning people with disabilities ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): I thank the hon member for her question We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular From the very beginning we have taken a disabilityinclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need That is why we announced a onetime payment of 600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses This will go a long way toward helping Canadians with disabilities We encourage and urge all parties in the opposition to support this measure We are confident that this measure along with other investments will benefit Canadians with disabilities and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon Ms. Louise Chabot: MadamChair I remind you that this measure was not passed because we were not allowed to do so A measure to help people with disabilities has been put in an omnibus bill We have tried here in the House to provide the means to give that support so I ask again can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair it was absolutely not an omnibus bill It contained assistance for the disabled of course but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed They refused to debate and when the question of splitting the bill came up the Conservatives refused to do that That is why there is no bill at the moment and that is very unfortunate Ms. Louise Chabot: It was a Bloc Qubcois proposal to split the bill The government had not thought of it but they found that it was a good idea Let me return to the attack This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible it proposed fines for fraudsters and since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties However we set one very important condition : that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers pockets in terms of the wage subsidy Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it No we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois example in splitting the bill we had thought of it a long time previously We have not been able to do that because of the Conservatives Because of them we can not help those living with disabilities The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): MsChabot you have 45seconds left Ms. Louise Chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities What is the status of that MadamChair ? We have not heard about it since Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that There are procedural mechanisms unique to the House I hope that one day we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities I hope that the Conservatives will change their minds and give us their support The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Don Valley East Ms Ratansi","Dane Lloyd asked about the budget given by the government in the economic recession, This was to table an economic update and provide jobs. As for the disabilities, Louise Chabot pointed to the bill regarding the disabilities and why it was not passed." "Mr. Dane Lloyd: I note that the minister could not name a single example of government support for carbon capture utilization and sequestration technology We have spent a lot of time talking about the COVID19 pandemic but Canadians are living with another horrific reality that being the intensifying opioid overdose epidemic Reports indicate that in the past four years 14000 Canadians have died and the numbers during COVID19 have been skyrocketing with British Columbia seeing a 39 increase this year alone I know this because I have lost a family member to a fentanyl overdose When is the government going to take this scourge seriously and take action to save the lives of Canadians ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair I share the members deep sadness about the number of lives we have lost to opioid overdose Our government has been steadily making it easier for people who live with substance use to access medications to treat substance use such as prescription Suboxone and methadone We have made it easier to rapidly establish safe injection sites in communities and have supported communitybased projects that work with people who are using substances We need to understand that this is a complex issue and we need to support people to get the help they need",The government let people who lived with substance use to access medications more easily. Safe injection sites had been made in communities and community-based projects had been supported for people who were using substances. "Ms. Louise Chabot (Thrse-De Blainville, BQ): MadamChair I will come back to the bill introduced last week As parliamentarians we felt like we were watching a very bad play as I imagine the public did I say that it was theatre even though it should not be in this place The government decided to stage a play and act alone and unfortunately there were several acts missing A very important part of this bill was about supporting people with disabilities in this time of crisis However the government did not see fit to negotiate with the opposition parties even though it is in a minority position Despite this arrogance the Bloc Qubcois proposed solutions One of the things we proposed was to split the bill so that we could give this support to people with disabilities but the Conservatives did not want to do that We came back and asked for time to negotiate and give support to people with disabilities but the government defeated the motion We asked that the House be recalled today so that we could pass this part of the bill concerning support for people with disabilities but we are still in the dark Why are we abandoning people with disabilities ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): I thank the hon member for her question We know this pandemic has deeply affected the lives and health of all Canadians and has disproportionately affected Canadians with disabilities in particular From the very beginning we have taken a disabilityinclusive approach to our emergency response to ensure that Canadians with disabilities get the support they need That is why we announced a onetime payment of 600 for persons with disabilities to address these expenses This will go a long way toward helping Canadians with disabilities We encourage and urge all parties in the opposition to support this measure We are confident that this measure along with other investments will benefit Canadians with disabilities and we hope to get the support of the other parties very soon Ms. Louise Chabot: MadamChair I remind you that this measure was not passed because we were not allowed to do so A measure to help people with disabilities has been put in an omnibus bill We have tried here in the House to provide the means to give that support so I ask again can the government be counted on to give a response to people with disabilities ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair it was absolutely not an omnibus bill It contained assistance for the disabled of course but it also contained assistance for our seasonal workers as well as a number of other measures that the Bloc Qubcois opposed They refused to debate and when the question of splitting the bill came up the Conservatives refused to do that That is why there is no bill at the moment and that is very unfortunate Ms. Louise Chabot: It was a Bloc Qubcois proposal to split the bill The government had not thought of it but they found that it was a good idea Let me return to the attack This bill proposed changes to the wage subsidy program it was supposed to make the CERB more flexible it proposed fines for fraudsters and since there was a little section about a benefit for the disabled the government took it for granted that we would support it without any negotiations with the parties However we set one very important condition : that the Liberal Party must get its hands out of taxpayers pockets in terms of the wage subsidy Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair as we listen to the Bloc Qubcois members we might think that they invented peanut butter and apple pie This bill contained a number of measures that all Quebeckers and all Canadians needed but the Bloc Qubcois refused to debate it No we did not follow the Bloc Qubcois example in splitting the bill we had thought of it a long time previously We have not been able to do that because of the Conservatives Because of them we can not help those living with disabilities The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): MsChabot you have 45seconds left Ms. Louise Chabot: We asked on a number of occasions for the House to be able to sit starting today to pass the part of the bill dealing with those with disabilities What is the status of that MadamChair ? We have not heard about it since Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair my colleague knows very well that things are not as simple as that There are procedural mechanisms unique to the House I hope that one day we will be able to pass this bill and be able to provide assistance for those living with disabilities I hope that the Conservatives will change their minds and give us their support","Hon. Ahmed Hussen mentioned that the government had announced a one-time of $600 for persons with disabilities to address the expense in need. However, this bill was refused by the Conservatives yet it was expected to be passed in one day." "The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): MrBlaney the honourable member for BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis has the floor Hon. Steven Blaney (BellechasseLes EtcheminsLvis, CPC): Thank you MadamChair Last week my plumber told me that each time Justin Trudeau comes down the steps to make announcements totalling several billion dollars he feels like someone is rifling through his pockets My question is simple and goes to the Minister of Finance : where is this money coming from ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MadamChair I would like to thank my honourable colleague for his question Currently the health and safety of Canadians are our top priorities We have implemented an emergency economic plan to support Canadians workers and companies We will continue to support them during this crisis Hon. Steven Blaney: The answer I would have liked is simple : we are borrowing the money and we are going to have to pay it back one day That is another Liberal craze : they borrow money they make campaign promises and off they go Under the Conservative government the Chantier Davie in Lvis had 1700workers for the supply ship Asterix In the election campaign the Liberals promised icebreakers When are the Liberals going to award the icebreaker contracts to the Chantier Davie ? Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): MadamChair we are very proud of the Chantier Davie and we completely understand its role in the system We are currently assessing those requests We are going to establish the process for the polar icebreaker which is essential for the work of the Coast Guard in northern communities and we are going to make sure that Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers do not need words they need contracts and jobs The same is true for young people who want to work There is money in the Canada summer jobs program : in my constituency alone 150000has been approved Companies want young people to work and want to hire them What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions ? In my constituency and everywhere else in the country our young people want to work What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair we are proud of the Canada summer jobs program We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students We recognize the importance of this program to provide both financial resources and necessary experience for young people We believe in continuing to invest in the Canada summer jobs program Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers the young people and the employers have been waiting for weeks The money is available where is the announcement ? MadamChair our young people are not the only ones who want to work There are also the temporary foreign workers Let me use Jessie Gito as an example he has been working at Plate2000 in SaintAnselme for years When the time came to renew his work permit he found out that he has to have some biometric tests But he can not get them because the offices are closed Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic Employers are slowly reopening businesses We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right We will continue to invest in the Canada summer jobs program We have introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people Hon. Steven Blaney: It is very simple Jessie Gito is a foreign worker who is in a company that provides an essential service He needs a decision that will let him go to work rather than staying home and doing nothing Then when the governments biometric testing centres are open again he will gladly go to one Young people want to work in agriculture as well and the minister has told us that the government wants young people working and that their files will be processed as quickly as possible She wants to create 700positions and she knows that people can fill in an application on a firstcome firstserved basis Of those 700positions how many have been confirmed to date ? The good weather has arrived the corn is starting to grow and this is the time when farmers need the young workers Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): MadamChair the program for young workers in agriculture is open I also encourage agricultural producers to register for it This is a program that is not only intended to provide summer jobs but also to interest young people in making a career in agriculture As I have said before the department is processing files as quickly as possible Each employer will have an answer very shortly The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will now take a short break we are ready to start again We will go to the honourable member for BarrieSpringwaterOroMedonte Mr. Doug Shipley (BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte, CPC): Thank you Chair Over the course of the pandemic has the government been using all avenues possible to source muchneeded PPE in Canada ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair we have been very clear that we have a madeinCanada initiative that has engaged companies across the country Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help frontline health care workers Mr. Doug Shipley: Madam Chair I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair this is a collective effort I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help frontline health care workers and essential workers across the country Mr. Doug Shipley: Thank you for that clarification That will make this question all the more pertinent My riding of BarrieSpringwaterOroMedonte is the home of Southmedic Inc Southmedic is a renowned medical supply business For over 37 years it has provided frontline health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses This company specializes in respiratory illness equipment Southmedic currently employs over 700 people and it has been recognized as one of Canadas bestmanaged companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions Since the beginning of the pandemic both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government Calls and emails were falling on deaf ears In early May I wrote a letter to Minister Anand outlining the situation I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation Science and Economic Development Canada I have heard nothing more When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all frontline workers will have the proper PPE they require ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair I would like to thank my honourable colleague for his question He knows full well that this is a very challenging time That is why we had a call to action to engage Canadians right across the country Since then we have seen over 6000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government and we will continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect frontline health care workers That has always been our priority I want to thank the outstanding Canadian companies that have come forward and have helped us in this endeavour We continue to look forward to working with them Mr. Doug Shipley: Thank you for that answer Just to follow up there is no retooling required at this company They could have been up and going very quickly They just needed a little assistance at the beginning Moving on to a different issue while walking to my office this morning I stopped at my local small familyrun coffee shop and was discussing the current economic situation with the two owners of the establishment They indicated they are having a very tough time surviving this economic downturn The only thing keeping them hopeful is that soon the public service will start returning to work and therefore their business will begin to return Could the government please give us some indication as to what the plans are for returning the civil service back to work safely and when ? Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): Thank you Madam Chair I am delighted to answer this question This is a very important topic but I would like to take the opportunity first to thank our public servants who have worked very hard in the last few weeks both personally and professionally In fact today is a wonderful day to say that because today is the start of National Public Service Week That is one more reason to thank them for their dedicated work They are not going to go back to work They have been at work for the last few monthsin different circumstances but they have been working very hard to deliver the services and the support Canadians need and deserve The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Next we will go to the honourable member for SelkirkInterlakeEastman Mr Bezan Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you Madam Chair My questions are for the Minister of National Defence First of all I want to thank the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces for the fantastic job they are doing in Operation LASER serving on the front lines battling COVID19 Can the Minister of National Defence give the House an update on exactly where we are at with the number of Canadian Armed Forces members who have been infected with COVID19 ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence): Madam Chair I want to echo the member opposites comments in thanking our Canadian Armed Forces members Currently we have 13 active cases in the Canadian Armed Forces but in the longterm care facilities we currently have 50 cases No member has been currently hospitalized We have also conducted very thorough reviews of our protection protocols as well Mr. James Bezan: Through you Chair Minister Sajjan does that number of active cases include the active cases that are in longterm care facilities right now in Operation LASER ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair as I stated the 50 cases are strictly from the longterm care facilities The 13 cases I mentioned are not in the longterm care facilities Just to give the actual clarification no member has been currently hospitalized Mr. James Bezan: In those numbers Madam Chair can Mr Sajjan say how many of those cases in longterm care facilities are active and how many are recovered ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair I do not have the exact number What I can say to break it down further is that in Quebec we currently have 36 and in Ontario we have 14 As well 36 of the members have been out of isolation I will get more details and pass them on directly to the member Madam Chair Mr. James Bezan: Thank you Minister Madam Chair I have a quick question while we are still talking about Operation LASER The President of the Treasury Board has said The Canadian Armed Forces will be present as long as their presence is needed in Quebec This contradicts what Prime Minister Trudeau is saying which is that we have a hard deadline of June 26 for the withdrawal of our troops for Operation LASER That means taking our troops out of our longterm care facilities Minister is June 26 the hard date for the winding down of Operation LASER ? Hon. Bill Blair: Thank you very much Madam Chair I am delighted to have the opportunity to clarify for the House We have been in very extensive discussions with the Province of Quebec with my counterpart Minister Guilbault and we are working very diligently to ensure we have a sustained appropriate response to the request from Quebec for assistance That response will result in a transition from the currently deployed Canadian Armed Forces to the deployment of paid volunteers trained personnel who will take on the important role of providing services to those Canadians who need our help in Quebec Mr. James Bezan: I will go back to the Minister of National Defence The Department of National Defence auditors have called out the Liberal government for mismanagement over the 553billion investment in our Canadian military through the defence policy Only three people have been assigned to oversee the rollout of this money This is a 553billion investment in our armed forces and only three people are managing it Could the minister tell us how that is even possible ? Is this the reason that over 100 projects are currently behind schedule ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair first of all I want to highlight the unprecedented investment that we are making in defence We have conducted internal reviews of our procurement The report the member opposite is talking about is from the previous year This is the ongoing work we are doing to make sure that we make procurement better When it comes to the management of this it is conducted by me and the minister of procurement We are working toward making our procurement even better We have already streamlined some aspects of our procurement and we will continue to do more as well Mr. James Bezan: Minister Sajjan you have had this report since November of 2019 You have been rolling out this plan since 2017 Only three people are overseeing an expenditure of 553 billion This is taxpayers money Are we going to see more cuts because you have been unable to actually roll out these dollars ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Madam Chair I can assure you we are not going to be cutting We will be investing in our defence The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Before I go to the next speaker I want to remind members that they are to address their questions and comments directly through the chair We will go now to the honourable member for Fort McMurrayCold Lake Mr Yurdiga Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC): Madam Chair the Canada summer jobs program has many challenges I have seen many indigenous communities in my riding rejected for funding even though they had received funding in previous years Here are a few examples of communities that were rejected : Beaver Lake Cree Nation Buffalo Lake Mtis Settlement and the Mtis Nation of Alberta Region 1 The list goes on Could the Prime Minister explain why so many indigenous communities have been denied funding from the Canada summer jobs program ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair we recognize the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in our community across the country every year We are working very hard to help employers adapt to the realities of the COVID19 pandemic and are supporting young Canadians as they begin to look for summer employment We are introducing increased flexibilities into the Canada summer jobs program to hire youth while also providing more supports to employers that deliver essential services to Canadians Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair that did not really answer my question Why are so many indigenous communities left out of the Canada summer jobs program ? This is very important to my community and to communities throughout the province Will the government investigate why these communities were rejected ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair I want to assure the honourable member that we of course value the important role that the Canada summer jobs program plays in all communities including indigenous communities in Canada I will certainly have an offline conversation with the honourable member if he so wishes about a particular issue but I can assure him that in the context of the COVID19 pandemic we have had to assist employers to introduce flexibilities The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go back to Mr Yurdiga Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair in my riding the City of Cold Lake has been in dispute with the federal government for many years over payment in lieu of taxes My office has sent many letters over the years regarding the PILT dispute Could the Minister of Public Services and Procurement give me a rough estimate of when I will receive a response from the ministers office to my first letter from 2017 and my letters from 2018 2019 and 2020 ? Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair I can assure the honourable member that I will go to the minister and we will come back with an answer to his question Mr. David Yurdiga: How much longer does the minister intend to perpetuate the ongoing PILT dispute which is in excess of 11 million with the City of Cold Lake ? Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair once again I can assure the honourable member that I will speak with the minister and get an answer to his question Mr. David Yurdiga: Well do you know what ? I have been writing letters to the department for many years When you say you are going to get back to me I really have a hard time believing that Will the minister agree to follow the prior recommendations of the dispute advisory panel that were accepted by the minister ? Hon. David Lametti: Madam Chair I can assure the honourable member that I will check with the minister and that she will return to the member in due course Mr. David Yurdiga: Madam Chair the drug Trikafta has been proven to increase the quality of life for 90 of cystic fibrosis patients Two weeks ago my office sent a letter to the Minister of Health about the boy in my riding named Cael who through the special access program is able to get Trikafta in Canada I requested that the minister use her powers to fasttrack Trikafta for commercial use but I have yet to receive a response back When will the minister make a decision on Trikafta ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Madam Chair I am glad to hear that Cael was able to access Trikafta through the special access program In fact that program is very helpful for people who are seeking access to medication that is not currently marketed in Canada As the member opposite knows Vertex has not applied to market Trikafta in Canada but we look forward to their application and I encourage him to write a letter to the manufacturer to also encourage them The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go now to the honourable member for Vancouver Granville Ms WilsonRaybould Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould (Vancouver Granville, Ind.): Thank you Chair I was very troubled to hear that a CBC radio host in the Yukon felt compelled to resign because as an indigenous person she could not speak her truth While we know the Broadcasting Act states that the Canadian broadcasting system should reflect the linguistic duality and multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian society and the special place of indigenous peoples it would seem there are some challenges Therefore does the Minister of Heritage share the concern of some journalists that problems of systemic racism in Canada are still existing within the institution of the CBC and will the government now acknowledge the need to recognize the jurisdiction of indigenous governments ? Hon. Steven Guilbeault (Minister of Canadian Heritage): Thank you Madame Chair and I thank the member for this important question As stated by the Prime Minister on numerous occasions our government recognizes that systemic racism exists in Canada and we have made a commitment to do everything we can to combat it in whichever organization of the Canadian government Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: Thank you When I was in the government and as a minister I learned the term red meat issues I understand these issues to be ones that challenge societal norms that are not politically expedient to address because they can lose you votes even though addressing them is morally right and a smart thing to do Mostly these are issues addressing inequality and the most marginalized in our society In the justice system examples include mandatory minimum penalties defunding police and even investing in restorative justice Redmeat issues often become defining issues for society and for governments as the world changes Surely now these issues are politically less of a consideration than the tragic reality of even more slain indigenous Canadians at the hands of police or thousands of indigenous people still incarcerated or living in poverty Will this government please finally commit to the necessary work originally promised in 2015 and repeal in the justice system the vast majority of mandatory minimum penalties assuring the necessary discretion for judges and meaningfully invest in restorative justice measures ? Hon. David Lametti: Madame Chair I thank the honourable member for her question as well as for her work as Minister of Justice and indeed my predecessor This is an important time This is a time when we recognize systemic racism This is a time when we recognize systemic overincarceration of indigenous peoples of black peoples in our criminal justice system This is a time when we need to look at all potential options to reduce what is a shameful overrepresentation in our criminal justice system Too often racialized peoples and indigenous peoples have experienced prejudice and systemic discrimination in our justice system and that has to change Hon. Jody Wilson-Raybould: I will go on to another red meat issue In British Columbia we are in the fifth year of the opioid overdose public health emergency crisis Sadly May marks the deadliest month of overdoserelated deaths We are halfway into the year and have currently passed 500 deaths caused by overdose Many of the deaths are related to COVID19 measures that have prevented people from accessing supervised consumption sites so they are overdosing alone While the provinces welcomed the federal backing of safe supply exemption back in March it is to expire in September of 2020 Echoing the call of the chief coroner of BC and Dr Henry more is needed from the federal government more action Will the government provide the necessary supports to the province and help support safe supply initiatives in the provinces ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: It is been a pleasure to work with the Province of British Columbia on innovative ways to work on the tragic situation of opioid overdose I remain committed to working with the province and in fact any province that wants to work towards solutions that treat people who use substances with the dignity they deserve Madam Chair this is a complex issue We are working closely with our partners to make sure that we can prevent more lives from being lost The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for South OkanaganWest Kootenay Mr Cannings Mr. Richard Cannings (South OkanaganWest Kootenay, NDP): Thank you Madam Chair I will be splitting my time with the member for SkeenaBulkley Valley In my riding Theos in Penticton is a beloved restaurant They have been serving great food for 40 years but now they are struggling because they do not qualify for the emergency wage subsidy Why is that ? The original owners retired last year and sold it to another operator The new owner can not use a yeartoyear comparison to apply for the wage subsidy because he did not own the restaurant last spring He is forced to use receipts from January and February the darkest doldrums of the restaurant year to compare with the results from May traditionally one of their best months Now he has to compete with other local restaurants that can access the subsidy When will the government fix this inequity and let Theos compete and survive ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Madam Chair the Canada emergency wage subsidy is supporting over 25 million workers across the country To help even more businesses support their workers and rehire people as they reopen our government is extending the CEWS and we will continue to extend the CEWS for an additional 12 weeks to August 29 to ensure that Canadian workers continue to have the support they need during these very difficult times By extending eligibility our government is ensuring that more Canadian workers in more sectors have the support they need Mr. Richard Cannings: The owner just wants to be able to apply for the wage subsidy and right now he can not and he will not be able to Thousands of other businesses are hit that way as well I would like to move on to forestry Canadas forest sector has been declared essential during this pandemic but it is been hit hard after a very difficult 2019 Despite soft markets and thousands out of work government support programs have left many Canadian forest product companies behind In my riding the pulp mill in Castlegar is closing for the month of July because local sawmills are not producing enough wood chips What is the government going to do to finally support Canadian forestry workers and communities ? The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The time is almost up but I will allow for the answer from the honourable minister Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Thank you Madam Chair We have supported and we will continue to support the forestry sector including through regional development programs In fact in Quebec partnering with Les Bois Francs DV Inc we have widened market access to our products and updated technology systems In North Bay we have partnered with the Canadian Wood Council to promote the sector In Vancouver we are working with FPInnovations to create the indigenous forest sector technical support program We are supporting the forestry sector and its different needs region by region The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): Now we go to the honourable member for SkeenaBulkley Valley Mr Bachrach Mr. Taylor Bachrach (SkeenaBulkley Valley, NDP): Thank you Madam Chair I am going to pick up where my colleague left off with BCs forest industry What we have seen in BC are multiple rounds of mill shutdowns and startups and in some cases this has made it difficult for forestry workers to qualify for EI My question to the minister is this : Will the minister work to make the EI program more flexible for forestry workers similar to what this government has done for oil and gas workers ? Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Madam Chair in the oil and gas sector we have focused on workers That has been key in the inactive and orphan well program which we are working on with the provincial governments of Saskatchewan British Columbia and Alberta The focus on workers has assured that success and we will continue to focus on workers in all the industries particularly our natural resource industry as they go through this extraordinarily difficult time Mr. Taylor Bachrach: Madam Chair reforestation is a very important part of the forest industry in the riding I represent and people were keenly interested to hear this governments plan to plant two billion trees in the next 10 years That is a lot of trees I am wondering if the minister could tell us how many trees are going to be planted under this program by the end of this season Hon. Seamus O'Regan: Madam Chair this government is committed to two billion trees We are working with forestry associations the industry and with individual companies to ensure this treeplanting season will be one of the largest the country has ever seen The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): The floor goes to the honourable member for RivireduNord Mr. Rhal Fortin (Rivire-du-Nord, BQ): MadamChair last week the government introduced BillC17 and the Minister of Justice sent us briefing notes in which he said that it was important to suspend a number of time limits and to extend others and that the failure to do so could have important repercussions on Canadians their families their situations their finances and their ability to exercise their rights We in the Bloc Qubcois agree with that When are we going to talk about it ? Hon. David Lametti: MadamChair the contents of BillC17 are clearly very important We have addressed the mandatory time limits in federal legislation as well as certain time limits that courts may not be able to handle It is very important that we address this issue That is why the law The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): MrFortin you have the floor Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair we agree that it is important I concur The ministers briefing notes say that among other things when it comes to divorcewhich means children are involved people are waiting on custody rights child support and visitation rights The minister pointed out that the national security review would require consultations if no decision is made in the prescribed time frame It could pose a national security risk It is really a big deal When are we going to debate it ? Hon. David Lametti: MadamChair I completely agree with my honourable colleague The issue needs to be addressed That is why it is in the bill That is another reason to debate the bill I beseech my colleagues opposite to debate it with us Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair what a coincidence because I beseech my colleague opposite to debate it with us That is what we are asking Last week the leader of the Bloc Qubcois asked the Liberal government to debate BillC17 today He did not get an answer It does not seem to matter Richard Wagner the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who is hardly a dimwit or greenhorn told us that the justice system needs to be modernized As recently as this past Saturday in LaPresse Justice Wagner said that it is essential that the Criminal Code be amended to address the backlog of court proceedings When will the Liberal government opposite pull up its socks do its job govern the federation sit down with the opposition and discuss the vital matters in BillC17 ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair if I were my colleague I would be a little embarrassed because the bill was sent to the Bloc Qubcois several days in advance They received a technical note several days in advance We were all available to take questions When we asked for the support of the Bloc Qubcois and the other parties to debate itwe were not even asking them to vote in favour of the billthey refused Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair we never refused to debate it Actually we were the ones who asked to debate it What exactly does debate it mean ? We set some conditions For example we asked the Liberals to put the money back into the wage subsidy fund and to commit to dip into it no longer Are we asking too much of our colleagues opposite ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Can my colleague explain to me what the emergency wage subsidy has to do with a bill about justice ? This is an absolutely fundamental piece of legislation We wanted to debate it but they refused to do so Mr. Rhal Fortin: MadamChair I would like nothing better than to explain it to him but I must remind him that he is the leader of the party in power the party that is supposed to govern the country So I do not know why he is asking me that My party proposed that we debate this today but we did not get an answer Meanwhile court time limits are running out and people are losing rights I am thinking of families child support child custody labour law disputes in Federal Court marine transportation interprovincial transportation aviation banks and those with grievances waiting for a Federal Court ruling The whole system the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal everything is on hold because nobody in the government wants to do their job We want to discuss BillC17 When can we talk about it ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: MadamChair we have done our job We have introduced the bill We informed them in advance We told them they could ask us any questions they wanted We asked for a debate in the House However when we asked the Bloc Qubcois if they wanted to debate the bill they said no instead of doing what they usually do and saying yes The Acting Chair (Mrs. Carol Hughes): We will go to the honourable member for Essex Mr Lewis Mr. Chris Lewis (Essex, CPC): Thank you Madam Chair When the CERB runs out many workers in my riding of Essex will not have sufficient hours to collect their EI benefits In early July the midnight shift at Chrysler will be eliminated Because of the shutdown a momtobe who had just returned to work in January and several hundred of her fellow employees may not have the 600 hours required for regular or EI parental benefits Immediate action is needed What is the government doing now to backstop these workers ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair the Canada emergency response benefit has been providing muchneeded help to Canadian workers across the country who have stopped working due to COVID19 We know that there is still a lot of uncertainty for many Canadian workers and we know that many will be exhausting their benefits in the weeks to come We will have more to share soon as early as this week on our continuing efforts to support Canadian workers and make sure that help is available during this Mr. Chris Lewis: Thank you Minister for the answer The EI system needs to be fixed Even before the shutdown the system was deeply flawed Will this government commit to a complete review and overhaul of the EI system ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair we have been there for Canadian workers We will continue to make sure that we make the necessary investments in the EI delivery system and modernize it to continue to meet","This section firstly pointed at the employment issues faced during the pandemic. Next, the topic turned to the emergency wage subsidy that was supporting over a 2.5million workers. The meeting grouped workers in different sectors and discussed them step by step. The listed groups included the students, foreign workers, health care workers, forestry workers, and workers in the oil and gas sector." "Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers do not need words they need contracts and jobs The same is true for young people who want to work There is money in the Canada summer jobs program : in my constituency alone 150000has been approved Companies want young people to work and want to hire them What is the minister waiting for in order to confirm those positions ? In my constituency and everywhere else in the country our young people want to work What is the government waiting for in order to send some cash to the Canada summer jobs program ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair we are proud of the Canada summer jobs program We are introducing flexibilities into the system to enable employers to be able to hire summer students We recognize the importance of this program to provide both financial resources and necessary experience for young people We believe in continuing to invest in the Canada summer jobs program Hon. Steven Blaney: The workers the young people and the employers have been waiting for weeks The money is available where is the announcement ? MadamChair our young people are not the only ones who want to work There are also the temporary foreign workers Let me use Jessie Gito as an example he has been working at Plate2000 in SaintAnselme for years When the time came to renew his work permit he found out that he has to have some biometric tests But he can not get them because the offices are closed Is the minister going to allow Jessie Gito and the thousands of other temporary foreign workers who want to work to be able to do so until the government biometric testing centres reopen ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Madam Chair it is important for the honourable member to recognize that we are in the early recovery stage of the pandemic Employers are slowly reopening businesses We will ensure that we support both our students and our temporary foreign workers to make sure we get the recovery right We will continue to invest in the Canada summer jobs program We have introduced flexibilities into the program to ensure that employers are able to take advantage of the program and give opportunities to young people",Hon. Ahmed Hussen appreciated the work of the summer jobs program which can provide both financial resources and necessary experience for young people. Thus the investment of the Canada summer jobs problem would be continued. "Mr. Doug Shipley (BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte, CPC): Thank you Chair Over the course of the pandemic has the government been using all avenues possible to source muchneeded PPE in Canada ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair we have been very clear that we have a madeinCanada initiative that has engaged companies across the country Over 700 companies have retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment to help frontline health care workers Mr. Doug Shipley: Madam Chair I need to ask very quickly which ministry and minister are responsible for the sourcing of PPE in Canada Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair this is a collective effort I work with the Minister of Health and the minister for procurement and we coordinate with the provinces and territories to make sure there are appropriate levels of PPE to help frontline health care workers and essential workers across the country Mr. Doug Shipley: Thank you for that clarification That will make this question all the more pertinent My riding of BarrieSpringwaterOroMedonte is the home of Southmedic Inc Southmedic is a renowned medical supply business For over 37 years it has provided frontline health care workers with an extensive line of PPE and other essential products required when dealing with respiratory illnesses This company specializes in respiratory illness equipment Southmedic currently employs over 700 people and it has been recognized as one of Canadas bestmanaged companies by Deloitte on numerous occasions Since the beginning of the pandemic both I and the member for BarrieInnisfil have been attempting to obtain some assistance for Southmedic from the federal government Calls and emails were falling on deaf ears In early May I wrote a letter to Minister Anand outlining the situation I received a letter back from the minister dated May 27 indicating that this issue of Southmedic falls under the mandate of the Minister of Innovation Science and Economic Development Canada I have heard nothing more When will the federal government reach out and help this great Canadian company and therefore ensure that all frontline workers will have the proper PPE they require ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Madam Chair I would like to thank my honourable colleague for his question He knows full well that this is a very challenging time That is why we had a call to action to engage Canadians right across the country Since then we have seen over 6000 companies step up to offer solutions and ideas and over 700 companies have retooled their efforts I acknowledge that some companies are still engaging with the government and we will continue to explore all possible options to make sure we continue to procure the necessary levels of personal protective equipment to protect Canadians and to protect frontline health care workers That has always been our priority I want to thank the outstanding Canadian companies that have come forward and have helped us in this endeavour We continue to look forward to working with them",A made-in-Canada initiative had engaged companies across Canada and they had retooled and scaled up their operations for personal protective equipment. This assisted front-line health care workers. "Marketing: yes I have to look at the market potential for this product like consumer likings and everything what is the potential for this product and are we able to achieve our a net profit or our aims or not ? Then Project Manager: P press F five to start it first Marketing: then the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings what they prefer what they not prefer w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things And what we got was we found that if you what they th what problems they are having with different remote controls available in the market Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly They are not so good looking So we have to put stress on this we have to take care of this fact also like our design should be appropriate should be good looking for the consumers And yes that is wi this will definitely this can definitely put enhance our sales and even the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high pay more for this good looking remote controls also So even if the available market goes for the available even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better better look designs then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls Then And the second thing some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users or in their remote controls but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want what they operate rather than making it too complicated Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if the consumers they want to use it Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also So we have to take care of this fact also Then it was function I want to go to Project Manager: Oh you want to go back ? Just escape Marketing: escape thank you Then if we look at this slide these are in your shared documents you can see User Interface: So sorry I was just going to say what was the question for this ? Or is are you coming on to that ? Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential what how we should design consu our remote controls what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit enhance our sales User Interface: So these percentages are are what ? Marketing: these are different age group persons like sorry I can open it in another way yes If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this this point like for speech recognition in a remote control So we can emphasise on this point also like because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from fifteen to thirty five and I and I think that most of the users of the rem TV are belong to this age group So we should look Project Manager: We are als we we are looking at who buys it as well Marketing: We can look at that that factor also so yes Project Manager: which I think the twenty five to thirty five is usual sort of Marketing: Yes I think so if we look at this data how how h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market They find that thirt thirty five percent thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl spe proper manuals for its use also so as that people consumers could easily learn They need not to have any much technical knowledge to see to know how to operate these remote controls","According to Marketing, seventy-five percent of the users found the remote controls which were available now in the market were ugly. Eighty percent of the users reported having the willingness to pay high for good-looking remote controls. Thirty-four percent of the consumers considered their remote controls were too difficult to operate. What's more, some companies believed that they shall have more functions in their remote controls. However, rather than having more functions and making it complicated, they shall emphasize what actually customers wanted and what they operated. All of these market potentials were required to be taken into consideration in order to enhance profits and sales." "Marketing: then the methodology I adopted to find out all this was market survey A a detailed market survey on consumers was done to find out their likings and dislikings what they prefer what they not prefer w what problems they do encounter in all this type of things And what we got was we found that if you what they th what problems they are having with different remote controls available in the market Seventy five percent of users they do find it that the remote controls available in the market are ugly They are not so good looking So we have to put stress on this we have to take care of this fact also like our design should be appropriate should be good looking for the consumers And yes that is wi this will definitely this can definitely put enhance our sales and even the good thing about this is that eighty percent of users they are willing to pay high pay more for this good looking remote controls also So even if the available market goes for the available even if the market goes for the available remote control is less even then we can sell it at twenty five Euros which maybe which may seem quite high but if our looks are are if the re remote control we design have a good better better look designs then we can hope that consumers will prefer these g remote controls Then And the second thing some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users or in their remote controls but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want what they operate rather than making it too complicated Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if the consumers they want to use it Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also So we have to take care of this fact also Then it was function I want to go to Project Manager: Oh you want to go back ? Just escape Marketing: escape thank you Then if we look at this slide these are in your shared documents you can see User Interface: So sorry I was just going to say what was the question for this ? Or is are you coming on to that ? Marketing: Ah t look all the market potential what how we should design consu our remote controls what they should be there so as to en enhance our profit enhance our sales User Interface: So these percentages are are what ? Marketing: these are different age group persons like sorry I can open it in another way yes If we look at the costs whether the consumers they are willing to pay more for speech recognition in a remote control or not we can find that they up to a thirty five years age group we have a very good disliking for this this point like for speech recognition in a remote control So we can emphasise on this point also like because it will definitely enhance our sales in this ag in this particular age group from fifteen to thirty five and I and I think that most of the users of the rem TV are belong to this age group So we should look Project Manager: We are als we we are looking at who buys it as well Marketing: We can look at that that factor also so yes Project Manager: which I think the twenty five to thirty five is usual sort of Marketing: Yes I think so if we look at this data how how h how what are the problems the consumers are facing with the existing remote controls in the market They find that thirt thirty five percent thirty four percent of the consumers they find too difficult to operate a remote control So it should be in such a way that it should be easy to learn how to operate these remote controls and we should provide pl spe proper manuals for its use also so as that people consumers could easily learn They need not to have any much technical knowledge to see to know how to operate these remote controls","On the whole, the results of the market potentials helped the team know the status quo and form some general ideas about the functions required by the market. First of all, the team realized the requirement for beautiful products, thus aiming to design good-looking and appropriate TV remote controls in order to enhance the sales. Second, since about one-third of the consumers reported to have difficulties in using their remotes, the team then agreed to reduce the numbers of buttons. Lastly, they decided to add speech recognition to their products because people from fifteen to thirty (the age group contained most of the consumers) enjoyed this function very much." "Marketing: Then And the second thing some some companies they think that they should have more and more functions of the users or in their remote controls but rather than those having more functions in the remote controls we should emphasise what actually consumer want what they operate rather than making it too complicated Because mostly it has been found that fifty percent of the users they use only ten percent of the buttons so there is no point of having ninety percent buttons making the remote controls too bulky too complicated too expensive a because I think I believe that technology is useful only if the consumers they want to use it Otherwise there is no point of having all this type of things So this will not only reduce the cost of our remote controls but it will increase our profit also So we have to take care of this fact also Then it was function I want to go to Project Manager: Oh you want to go back ? Just escape Marketing: escape thank you Then if we look at this slide these are in your shared documents you can see","Altogether, there were three advantages. The first was the simplicity of use. In the market, lots of remotes had many buttons because companies believed that more buttons they added, the more their consumers would appreciate. However, the fact was that many people didn't know how to use these buttons at all. The redundant buttons only increased the difficulties for people to use. The second was the decrease in cost since fewer buttons were needed. The last was the increase in sales and profits." Project Manager: We had that to disinclude teletext because it is become outdated and everybody uses the internet anyway do not know what Oracle would have to say with that but never mind it is only for the television which I am presuming means it is for a specific television and instead of colours and sorta colour options they want corporate colour and slogan somehow implemented in the new design I presume everything all their sort of you know the corporate website and everythings yellow And the logo the sort of slogan we put the fa fashion in electronics I do not know exactly how sort of incorpor I mean I guess if you are going for a sort of globular shape you could kind of have it working its way round it or something,"After a thorough discussion, the team finally reached a consensus that the new design would have seven functions. First, the new remotes would dis-include teletext because that was obsolete. Second, they wanted to integrate the corporate colour and slogan in the new design. Third, speech recognition would be included. Fourth, the new remotes could glow in the dark. Fifth, there would be limited buttons on the remotes. Sixth, the design was organic. Seventh, the new remotes would be with programmability." "Project Manager: glow in the dark is that sort of with a light inside it or is it sort of glow in the dark material ? User Interface: Glow in the dark material I was thinking so I I guess that would be cheaper than a light I think Marketing: may I say something about ? actually I think it is really really very important point as if we look at the market because people mor fifty percent people they find that the remote controls are often lost somewhere in the remote in the room But User Interface: Often lost s was that Marketing: and means they forget where they have kept the remote control last time But if we add speech recognition as well as glow in the dark then both these factors will help their locating the remote control like if they come and speak something at the remote control replies to something something and it glows in the dark Both these factors both these points will help them to locate the where they have kept this remote control and this will definitely enhance our market sales so we should take it into consideration also","Although there were two options: a light inside the remotes and glow in the dark material, the team finally agreed to choose the later one because it was much cheaper. Besides, it was believed that combined with speech recognition, it would be easy for people to locate their remote controls, thus enhancing the overall market sales." "Project Manager: speech recognition I take it I do not I have I know of no products that use speech recognition well Industrial Designer: They are act there there was a remote control that came out two years ago that had a some basic speech recognition on it You could programme it with your channels and then you say you know like BBC one and it goes to that channel it did not work very well though because of this noise interference problem They mentioned you know if the television says you are listening to BBC one Project Manager: or a an advert an advert for BBC two on BBC onell switch the channel for you kind of thing Industrial Designer: Right right and so there was a lot of this you would be watching the TV and then all of a sudden it would it would pick up a noise and turn it off or you know or turn the volume off or something but if you can work around that that noise problem User Interface: this might get a bit too expensive actually but what about something that is built into the TV that you can press and it will send out a little signal you know like the ones that we can not hear or something Project Manager: Ah that is a good idea User Interface: that that will activate the remote control starts to beep Project Manager: So like a kind of backwards remote from the telly User Interface: If you find if y Industrial Designer: Right and then it would do just you know subtractive kind of cancellation of the noise What you could do then would be you have a remote controlled by the TV speaker or not a remo I am sorry a microphone by the TV speaker and a transmitter there that sends back to your remote because you can not expect the the television manufacturers to to put that feature into their TVs User Interface: Mm that is the only thing Industrial Designer: But then you have like the little se separate module by the TV speaker Project Manager: That we should just stick on User Interface: That comes with our remote control Industrial Designer: Right and then the remote control would know what is being produced by the television Project Manager: And that is a sort of basic RF kind of frequency so it will be cheap Industrial Designer: Right right that is certainly possible then an another thing was about this losing the remote and trying to find it again If you do have this sorta speech interface to it you do not even need to find it You just say you know whatever you whatever you want the remote for you know to change the channel or to turn the TV on and off you just shout your command to it and it would do it for you if it is within you know within hearing range And you know it could be somewhere in the room y that you have no idea where it is and it would still do its job User Interface: That could also be built into the TV though which might make our remote control a bit obsolete Industrial Designer: Well hopefully we are we are ahead of the curve Project Manager: It might do us out of a job I like the whole sort of remote feedback thing so I think rather than and that also kind of takes out the speech recognition in terms of the interference of it not working very well and things like that and expense and the time","According to the Project Manager, it was hard to have speech recognition in remotes and no products in the market now used this function well. There was mainly one reason: the noise interference problem, which was too expensive to solve. Luckily, the User Interface came up with an idea to have something built into the TV that people could press and then it would send out a little signal. The Industrial Designer agreed and proposed to have a microphone by the TV speaker and a transmitter there to send back to their remotes. Such design was subtractive cancellation of the noise." "Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you Chair If I can just first of all zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support So one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there So we have got the school categorisation system which we are familiar with We have also got Estyn inspection reports then we have got other intelligence including local intelligence on the ground How do you decide from that ? How is it decided what schools need support need challenge ? How do we do that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well you are right : what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support or need to be challenged on their practice But it is important not to confuse them either So our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system Sometimes and perhaps this is inevitable— That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent So our school improvement service—it is a riskbased approach so they can evaluate where they need to put their time effort and resource Sometimes it is used by other people for other things but that is not its primary purpose its primary purpose there is not one of accountability it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available Estyn—now that is part of that accountability system That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do Both systems of course are evolving So how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed and of course the Estyn inspection regime is also changing At the moment schools are only inspected once every seven years We are moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools So they are two systems but they are different and they look at different things But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you have made with feedback over the last few years adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works Are you content with where it is now or do you see more adjustments being made ? Have you got things in front of you that you are getting feedback on saying Well we need to tweak this again a little bit ? Kirsty Williams AM: So that system has evolved over time So when it started it was just a tool around secondary schools Now it covers the breadth of schools Initially on coming into office when I first came in it was purely driven by data and it was also done in quartiles So there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom which drove practitioners mad They were like Ah every year there is going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile because of the way in which it was arranged which seemed very unfair to them So we have changed that It is not just purely driven on data now there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve to align itself to our curriculum reform and our changes in selfevaluation So it is not a fixed point I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change so that it complements and assists in the reform journey as other parts of the system change Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that I think for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this there is some good news within that in that certainly those schools that might have been identified as have been but coasting along seem to be moving up the categories although we still do have that— Well it is what the system is there to do it is to identify those schools that do need that additional support And I like your analogy of a triage system—You are fit keep on doing what you are doing and do it well you need more support we will put the support in But can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern and how we identify them ? The Estyn chief inspectors conclusions at the end of the 201718 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there is a need to do something urgently about these concerns particularly in secondary schools Have we addressed that ? Are you content that we have addressed that concern ? Was he right ? Kirsty Williams AM: No the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right I have got no beef with that statement at all In some ways when a school goes into special measures in a way that is a failure of the system because that should have been identified sooner So I have got no beef as I said with the chief inspector saying that Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having how is it that we do not identify those schools ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is it—you are quite right Undoubtedly what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding I think on behalf of local education authorities and school improvement services knowledge about their schools I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily then moving those schools more quickly once they have been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement And secondary schools is a particular particular challenge So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating which is very satisfying to me But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation So even though we have identified them as needing that extra help they are not moving at pace away from that system So there are two things that we are doing at the moment The first is we are again looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later For instance staff sickness and carefully monitoring staff sickness because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school And Steve can explain some of this work later But we are piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about And we have a new multiagency approach working with those schools to try and move them more forward So it is two from each region a multiagency panel working with the school And that multiagency panel includes the school itself the local authority the regional consortia school improvement staff Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multiagency panel to support improvement in that school So for instance what would normally happen Estyn would come in Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away They would go away for six months and then they would come back in six months and they would make another judgment No still not good enough and disappear for six months We are saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that is not the best approach Estyn need to be part of the solution rather than just coming and making a judgment The initial feedback from this trial is very very positive Actually we have had local authorities coming to us and saying Can we put more schools in ? Rather than just having two of our high schools can we engage more in this project and this pilot ? It is being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University so we are having some academic overview to see actually does this approach work can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference ? And it is actually—I would like to claim all the credit for it but it is actually not dissimilar to something that is happening in Scotland as well But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly was not moving these schools we needed a new approach and this is what we are doing at the moment So it is relatively new but the initial feedback is positive Steve I do not know— Steve Davies: I think your important point is about What about the schools that are sliding in that direction ? And it is bringing together what we know from Estyn but also critically local authorities have knowledge of their schools and so do consortia We have got to be better at bringing those together So the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger but it is one of those If you look at movement of pupils out of a school you can look at complaints you can look at actually emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority None of these have been pushed up into the public domain but they are important antennae The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is historically when they go into special measures Estyn at the end of that week call in historically either the region or the local authority they will feed back to one of them and then they go away So they are staying with it So we are brining together the knowledge But as the Minister said we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public to parents with the very detailed collective work of that multiagency group to actually make that difference over time Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So does that— I would love to go further but time is against us Does that deal with the issue of the schools that have been identified in those categories of requiring significant improvement and requiring special measures ? Are those the ones that will be identified now or is that above and beyond that again ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well those are the ones that are primarily at the forefront of our minds but this way of sharing data better to step in earlier is part of our attempt to address what the chief inspector says about stepping in early—not waiting until a school gets into special measures and a formal judgment from Estyn of that but actually using that intelligence to get support in there earlier The three elements that that multiagency approach look at are : what are the fundamentals that need addressing in this school ? What is the capacity of the school itself to be able to address those fundamentals ? And what extra support needs to go into that senior management team and the governing body to get those fundamentals addressed ? And actually what does sustainable improvement look like ? Because again one of the issues sometimes that happens is a school goes into a category with Estyn there is a big push and a big We must do something and the school comes out but actually that improvement is not sustainable It is the lowhanging fruit it is the easy wins that have been achieved but actually perhaps some of the fundamental challenges underlying in that school have not been addressed in that process So this is about what will sustainable improvement look like in six months what is it going to look like in 12 months and what is it going to look like in 18 months So actually a more strategic longer term approach to real change in a school rather than perhaps some of the easytofix items that make a school as if it is doing better but we really have not tackled some of the underlying problems that make that school vulnerable to slipping back Does that make sense ? Lynne Neagle AM: I have got a couple of supplementaries on— Sorry ? Kirsty Williams AM: Does that make sense ? Lynne Neagle AM: Yes We have got a couple of supplementaries on this first from Suzy and then from Siân Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that Chair Obviously I am pleased to hear that this work is being done but I am wondering— What strikes me in the recent past at least particularly as we have got the usual suspects in this category— I have got to ask myself why it is that councils have been reluctant perhaps to step in with these schools earlier particularly as they have got consortia or middletier support as well Has there been a deficit in that space that has meant that councils do not feel equipped to step in ? I just do not really get it why they have been reluctant to step in so far If they have been nervous about doing it because they do not feel that they have got the tools to do it then I think that is pretty important because as you were saying we were talking about fundamentals surely councils have been able to deal with fundamentals and more importantly consortia up until now Because obviously we are asking these players to give us evidence at some point so perhaps I would like to challenge them on how come we are here now I am not laying this at your door Kirsty Williams AM: And rightly so I guess each local authority will have an explanation for each individual school I suspect What is crucial to me is that we have to— I see our job as corralling the collective effort and I think for too long in the system there has been a lack of coordination So this is about bringing and corralling a collective effort to address this going forward in more sustainable way And I think it does come back to this issue around selfevaluation and a willingness to be open honest and upfront about some of the challenges that we have got It is not easy is it ? It is not easy to accept or to acknowledge sometimes when things are— Suzy Davies AM: That they do not know how to do this Kirsty Williams AM: Well that they are going badly or perhaps they do not know exactly how to make the difference So this approach as I said is a new way of trying to coral that collective effort across the board But I do not know if Steve—because you have done other roles in the system so perhaps you have got a different insight Steve Davies: I think you are right The variation across the country across local authorities— There are some local authorities that we have worked with and we identify have taken the appropriate action There are others that we are working with and yes at its best it is done as a joint exercise where they use their regional school improvement service to help in the identification that there is a need for this They take advice as to what the action is whether it is as the Minister said in the more significant areas a board or whether a warning notice comes in terms of standards or finance So we are working with them and we are working with the Welsh Local Government Association to share that practice An example of that work is : we have done a development training session for cabinet members for education and scrutiny leads for education across Wales and all 22 local authorities came to that and engaged with that That was partly about selfimprovement but it was also about where significant issues arise you have to constructively confront them And that comes with what the region knows and increasingly we are looking to have it consistently across 22 local authorities so they are collecting all the additional data that we referred to earlier so they can legitimately hold a mirror up and say This is a real concern that we have We are not punishing you but we are registering the seriousness and we want you to address it And we are making progress I believe it is genuinely more consistent now but I would be lying if I said that there was consistency across all 22 local authorities Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I am conscious of time Lynne Neagle AM: I have got a supplementary from Siân then back to Huw Sian Gwenllian AM: Because you are moving to a more sophisticated approach in terms of identifying problems sooner and so can offer the support earlier is it time to think about moving away from the system of categorisation entirely ? That is has the categorisation system reached the end of its usefulness and is the multiagency approach this more sophisticated approach a better way ultimately of being able to assist schools in moving forward ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think Siân as I said earlier the categorisation system has evolved over time and my expectation is that it will continue to evolve because it has to be consistent with our overall approach to school improvement and raising standards I expect OECD will have feedback for us on this important part of our system and we will wait to see exactly what they say about it but as I said in answer to Huw IrrancaDavies earlier I have not got a closed mind we have demonstrated over the last four years our willingness to change the system to make it a smarter system and we will continue to keep that under review as we move forward If I could just go back briefly it does not sound like a very exciting thing does it when we say we have been doing work with the WLGA with cabinet members but also scrutiny because that is a really important part of the jigsaw as well is actually local government scrutiny of the performance of your education portfolio holder and the leadership of your council So this is about trying to up the ante on all sides so that those issues around What are you doing in your local authority to use the powers that you have ? You know sometimes making sure that everybody in that authority—those in power and those who are there to hold those in power to account—have the necessary skills knowledge and understanding to do that appropriately Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes briefly I only have one final question We have talked a lot about early identification getting in there and then managing the improvement this triage approach there and then getting some grip of it as well in doing all of that But my question now is on what we currently have I will not touch on the primary schools but let us just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory needing urgent improvement There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another but 11 per cent to me and to any layperson would seem unreasonably high Are you— ? It would be daft to ask you if you are content What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales ? Kirsty Williams AM: You are right Schools will need different levels of support at different points and sometimes it is not because of a crisis So for instance in my region we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category That is because we have seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they have reached retirement age and there are new headteachers Well that is a moment of risk in the school—when senior leadership changes Nothing else has changed in that school but the simple fact that you have a new leader sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support so it is not always just a crisis that needs extra support there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it But you are absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me Huw which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where persistently we have concerns about their ability to move forward If we would have carried on doing the same thing I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern Steve Davies: Very briefly the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools particularly at GCSEs with a narrow focus As was said earlier some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they do not come out Our belief is from research that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time and you can do that by targeting and immersing them Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better but we have not handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership teaching and learning and bringing those together As the Minister said what does sustainable improvement look like in six 12 18 months ? It is not just as important as they are getting those exam grades up a bit They are the fundamental— And if they are all agreed as the indicators at the outset we are more likely— So it is multiagency it is not a little activity it is a major strategy Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier","According to Kirsty, there were a variety of ways in which schools that needed support or needed to be challenged on their practice would be identified. Basically, they relied on the school categorization system. What's more, in Kirsty's opinion, the school improvement service was a risk-based approach. Luckily, the categorization system on which they depended would continue to evolve to align itself to the curriculum reform and make changes in self-evaluation. It would continue to evolve because it had to be consistent with their overall approach to school improvement and raising standards. What they needed now was a more strategic, longer term approach to reach changes in a school rather than some of the easy-to-fix items that made a school as if it was doing better." "Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thank you Chair If I can just first of all zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support So one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the different systems out there So we have got the school categorisation system which we are familiar with We have also got Estyn inspection reports then we have got other intelligence including local intelligence on the ground How do you decide from that ? How is it decided what schools need support need challenge ? How do we do that ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well you are right : what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools that need support or need to be challenged on their practice But it is important not to confuse them either So our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system Sometimes and perhaps this is inevitable— That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent So our school improvement service—it is a riskbased approach so they can evaluate where they need to put their time effort and resource Sometimes it is used by other people for other things but that is not its primary purpose its primary purpose there is not one of accountability it is one of identifying risk and aligning that then to the support that is available Estyn—now that is part of that accountability system That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the work that they do Both systems of course are evolving So how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed and of course the Estyn inspection regime is also changing At the moment schools are only inspected once every seven years We are moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools So they are two systems but they are different and they look at different things But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools","Now, Estyn was used as part of the accountability system. Since the systems were evolving all the time, the Estyn itself inspection regime was changing as well. Now, they were moving to a system where Estyn would be more regularly in schools. Although there were two systems, they were different and they looked at different things. The categorization system they used now was how they looked for those ways of identifying support for schools." "Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that I think for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this there is some good news within that in that certainly those schools that might have been identified as have been but coasting along seem to be moving up the categories although we still do have that— Well it is what the system is there to do it is to identify those schools that do need that additional support And I like your analogy of a triage system—You are fit keep on doing what you are doing and do it well you need more support we will put the support in But can I turn to those schools that are causing significant concern and how we identify them ? The Estyn chief inspectors conclusions at the end of the 201718 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there is a need to do something urgently about these concerns particularly in secondary schools Have we addressed that ? Are you content that we have addressed that concern ? Was he right ? Kirsty Williams AM: No the chief inspector is absolutely right—absolutely right I have got no beef with that statement at all In some ways when a school goes into special measures in a way that is a failure of the system because that should have been identified sooner So I have got no beef as I said with the chief inspector saying that Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having how is it that we do not identify those schools ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is it—you are quite right Undoubtedly what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding I think on behalf of local education authorities and school improvement services knowledge about their schools I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily then moving those schools more quickly once they have been identified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement And secondary schools is a particular particular challenge So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primary sector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating which is very satisfying to me But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools and we have a particular issue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation So even though we have identified them as needing that extra help they are not moving at pace away from that system So there are two things that we are doing at the moment The first is we are again looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later For instance staff sickness and carefully monitoring staff sickness because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school And Steve can explain some of this work later But we are piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about And we have a new multiagency approach working with those schools to try and move them more forward So it is two from each region a multiagency panel working with the school And that multiagency panel includes the school itself the local authority the regional consortia school improvement staff Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multiagency panel to support improvement in that school So for instance what would normally happen Estyn would come in Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away They would go away for six months and then they would come back in six months and they would make another judgment No still not good enough and disappear for six months We are saying—Estyn and the Welsh Government have agreed that is not the best approach Estyn need to be part of the solution rather than just coming and making a judgment The initial feedback from this trial is very very positive Actually we have had local authorities coming to us and saying Can we put more schools in ? Rather than just having two of our high schools can we engage more in this project and this pilot ? It is being evaluated by Cardiff Metropolitan University and Swansea University so we are having some academic overview to see actually does this approach work can we evidence it—that it actually makes a difference ? And it is actually—I would like to claim all the credit for it but it is actually not dissimilar to something that is happening in Scotland as well But we knew that carrying on doing the same old thing clearly was not moving these schools we needed a new approach and this is what we are doing at the moment So it is relatively new but the initial feedback is positive Steve I do not know— Steve Davies: I think your important point is about What about the schools that are sliding in that direction ? And it is bringing together what we know from Estyn but also critically local authorities have knowledge of their schools and so do consortia We have got to be better at bringing those together So the Minister gave the example of staff sickness—not always a trigger but it is one of those If you look at movement of pupils out of a school you can look at complaints you can look at actually emerging increased use of HR resources that a school pulls on a local authority None of these have been pushed up into the public domain but they are important antennae The point the Minister made about Estyn as well is historically when they go into special measures Estyn at the end of that week call in historically either the region or the local authority they will feed back to one of them and then they go away So they are staying with it So we are brining together the knowledge But as the Minister said we want to keep a very clear distinction between the accountability and the transparency to the public to parents with the very detailed collective work of that multiagency group to actually make that difference over time","According to Kirsty and Huw, the real question was how was it that they didn't identify those schools. Since these schools were not being identified early enough, there was a need to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Even though they had identified them as needing that extra help, they were not moving at pace away from that system. In Steve's opinion, the importance lied on ""What about the schools that are sliding in that direction?"" And it brought together what they knew from Estyn, but also, local authorities had knowledge of their schools, and so did consortia. They had got to be better at bringing those together." "Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes briefly I only have one final question We have talked a lot about early identification getting in there and then managing the improvement this triage approach there and then getting some grip of it as well in doing all of that But my question now is on what we currently have I will not touch on the primary schools but let us just look at secondary schools—11 per cent of secondary schools inspected in the last two academic years judged as unsatisfactory needing urgent improvement There will always be secondary schools and primary schools that hit moments of crisis for one reason or another but 11 per cent to me and to any layperson would seem unreasonably high Are you— ? It would be daft to ask you if you are content What is a level that you would be content with of having schools in red category in Wales ? Kirsty Williams AM: You are right Schools will need different levels of support at different points and sometimes it is not because of a crisis So for instance in my region we do have an increase in the number of schools in the amber category That is because we have seen in that particular region a number of headteachers retire because they have reached retirement age and there are new headteachers Well that is a moment of risk in the school—when senior leadership changes Nothing else has changed in that school but the simple fact that you have a new leader sometimes in those cases it might be their first headship That means that that school is going to need a little bit of extra support so it is not always just a crisis that needs extra support there are just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it But you are absolutely right—we have a particular challenge in the secondary sector where we have not been able to move individual schools forward at pace And 11 per cent is not acceptable to me Huw which is why we have introduced this new pilot to address those schools where persistently we have concerns about their ability to move forward If we would have carried on doing the same thing I suspect we would have just carried on getting the same result—hence the need for a new approach to those schools that are causing concern Steve Davies: Very briefly the things we talked about earlier was how we measure the performance of schools particularly at GCSEs with a narrow focus As was said earlier some of these are the same groups—they trip in and then they do not come out Our belief is from research that they concentrate on squeezing the pips to get the grades up in some small areas for a period of time and you can do that by targeting and immersing them Estyn can tick the box to say your grades have got better but we have not handled the serious underpinning issues—leadership teaching and learning and bringing those together As the Minister said what does sustainable improvement look like in six 12 18 months ? It is not just as important as they are getting those exam grades up a bit They are the fundamental— And if they are all agreed as the indicators at the outset we are more likely— So it is multiagency it is not a little activity it is a major strategy Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Hefin David has some questions now on the middle tier","According to Kirsty, school was going to need a little bit of extra support, so it was not always just a crisis that needed extra support. There were just general things that happen in the life of a school that could lead to it. However, it was also right that they had a particular challenge in the secondary sector. That's why they had introduced the new pilot to address those schools. If they carried on doing the same thing, they would keep getting the same results, which was not satisfying enough." "Hefin David AM: I would like to consider the work of the consortia In 2016 your election manifesto very clearly said that you wanted to abolish regional consortia—three words in it Why have not you done it ? Kirsty Williams AM: Because given that you are such a keen student of my manifesto you will also know that— Hefin David AM: It was only three words Kirsty Williams AM: The Liberal Democrat manifesto also said that we supported major local government reform and a major reduction in the number of local government units That has not happened I have to say genuinely my experience over the last four years has proven to me the value of regional working and in the absence of significant local government reform I think it is absolutely vital that we have scale in school improvement services—scale that I do not think can be delivered across 22 individual local authorities Hefin David AM: So if there was local government reform you would abolish the consortia Kirsty Williams AM: I think if there was significant local government reform and we could demonstrate that those units had such a scale that they could perform the functions of regional consortia then I think it would be inevitable that any education Minister would look to see whether there was an opportunity to change structures But in the absence of that Hefin I have been absolutely convinced whilst doing this job that you need larger units to be able to carry out successful school improvement work and I think it would be reckless to advocate the system going back to school improvement being organised in 22 different ways Hefin David AM: Do you think that the work of the four consortia has been consistent and effective ? Kirsty Williams AM: The school improvement services ? I think as with individual local education authorities there are some regional consortia services that have performed really highly—and that is not me saying that that is Estyn but gives us assurance around that—and there are others that need to improve I think the consortia themselves would admit that they since their establishment have found new ways of working Initially they were very separate entities that did things their own way Increasingly over recent years we have seen those consortia working together on a national approach but delivered on a regional basis So I think they themselves have evolved over time But we are constantly looking for optimum delivery from those particular organisations but as I said I think it would be absolutely reckless to go back to a situation where school improvement services were being delivered individually on 22 different bases Hefin David AM: I am happy to accept that you have changed your opinion there that is no problem at all But with regard to the four consortia and we will take Education through Regional Working as an example it does things differently to the other three Is that a because for concern or do you think that is entirely appropriate ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well ERW does things differently but then so does the Education Achievement Service EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium What I am interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised I am interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers ERW has got particular challenges and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those but increasingly as I said what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery Hefin David AM: Are you happy that within the ERW area local authorities employ their own improvement advisers rather than doing it in the way that the others do ? Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre and we continue to have those discussions but what is really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs So we can not impose that solution and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think it is really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice What is important for me is to understand—not for me it will be important for Estyn It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW especially at what is a very very critical time The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation And of course there is the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia So I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it is your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said I would be seeking assurances— Hefin David AM: What does that mean though seeking assurances ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they are going to address these issues If they are not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW as I said especially at this critical time how are they intending to do that ? I have not seen those plans but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also Hefin David AM: just last issue on that : you are just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next then Kirsty Williams AM: Well we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us if they were to pull out of ERW how they are going to meet their functions I have not heard back from them Hefin David AM: Steve did you want to say something ? Steve Davies: Obviously—Inaudible—that point We wrote to them last Friday and we are awaiting their response now Hefin David AM: So that is where we are There was the document in 2015—National model for regional working Is that the current document ? Are there plans to change or update it or is that exactly where we stand ?","According to Hefin, some regional consortia services performed really highly, but there were others that needed to improve. Those consortia shall be seen as working together on a national approach, but being delivered on a regional basis. Also, it had evolved over time, and they were constantly looking for optimum delivery. By taking Education through Regional Working as an example, they had pointed out that ERW as well as the Education Achievement Service EAS was constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium. They delivered on a regional basis. They would continue to discuss with ERW what was the optimal way and continued to cooperate with the constituent local authorities about how that shall be organized." "Hefin David AM: I am happy to accept that you have changed your opinion there that is no problem at all But with regard to the four consortia and we will take Education through Regional Working as an example it does things differently to the other three Is that a because for concern or do you think that is entirely appropriate ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well ERW does things differently but then so does the Education Achievement Service EAS is constituted in a different way to the Central South Consortium What I am interested in is not necessarily how they are constituted and organised I am interested in the effectiveness of that organisation to deliver for children and for teachers ERW has got particular challenges and we continue to work with those in ERW to address those but increasingly as I said what we are seeing the regional consortia do is develop a national approach to school improvement services but deliver that on a regional basis so that there is greater consistency in terms of delivery Hefin David AM: Are you happy that within the ERW area local authorities employ their own improvement advisers rather than doing it in the way that the others do ? Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre and we continue to have those discussions but what is really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs So we can not impose that solution and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised","In Hefin's opinion, they took ERW as an example because it did things differently with regard to the four consortia. They were interested in the effectiveness of that organization to deliver for children and for teachers since ERW had got particular challenges. What they were seeing the national consortia do is developing a national approach to school improvement services. What's more, according to Hefin, the regional consortia were not a beast of the Government; they were a beast of the local authorities that had worked together to create a school improvement service that met their needs." "Kirsty Williams AM: We have discussed this at length with them My preference would be for school improvement officers to be employed in the centre and we continue to have those discussions but what is really important to understand is that the regional consortia are not a beast of the Government they are a beast of the local authorities that have worked together to create a school improvement service that meets their needs So we can not impose that solution and we continue to discuss with ERW what is the optimal way and they continue to discuss with their constituent local authorities about how that should be organised Hefin David AM: Are you concerned that Neath Port Talbot have given notice that they want to withdraw from regional working ? Kirsty Williams AM: I think it is really disappointing that Neath Port Talbot have published that notice What is important for me is to understand—not for me it will be important for Estyn It will be really important for us to understand how Neath Port Talbot intend to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW especially at what is a very very critical time The regional consortia have a key role to play in supporting systems with the introduction of the curriculum I would want to know from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to do that without being part of that organisation And of course there is the added complexity that so much of our money is channelled through to schools via the regional consortia So I would want to understand from Neath Port Talbot how they are going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who are receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot are not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision","Kirsty believed that it was really important for them to understand how Neath Port Talbot intended to support their schools and their teachers if they were to withdraw from ERW, especially at what was a critical time. They wanted to know from Neath Port Talbot how they were going to do that without being part of the organization. Additionally, Kirsty was curious about how they were going to safeguard their schools and make sure that the children who were receiving their education in Neath Port Talbot were not disadvantaged if they were to follow through on that decision." "Hefin David AM: Do you feel that it is your role to intervene in that area and instruct Neath Port Talbot and ERW as to how they should resolve this issue ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well as I said I would be seeking assurances— Hefin David AM: What does that mean though seeking assurances ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to me how they are going to address these issues If they are not part of ERW and their schools and their children are not going to be in receipt of the support from ERW as I said especially at this critical time how are they intending to do that ? I have not seen those plans but if they were to push forward and follow through on the notice I would want to see them and I suspect Estyn would want to see them also Hefin David AM: just last issue on that : you are just waiting to see what Neath Port Talbot do next then Kirsty Williams AM: Well we have written to Neath Port Talbot to ask them to demonstrate to us if they were to pull out of ERW how they are going to meet their functions I have not heard back from them Hefin David AM: Steve did you want to say something ? Steve Davies: Obviously—Inaudible—that point We wrote to them last Friday and we are awaiting their response now Hefin David AM: So that is where we are There was the document in 2015—National model for regional working Is that the current document ? Are there plans to change or update it or is that exactly where we stand ?","According to Kirsty, they would be ""seeking assurances"". It meant that Neath Port Talbot would need to demonstrate to them how they were going to address these problems. However, so far, they had not seen the plans. But if Neath Port Talbot were to push forward and follow on the notice, they would want to see. Now, what they were doing was waiting for their responses." "Kirsty Williams AM: So that is the current model Some work was undertaken in 2017 and 2018 to look to update that model and revise that model Some specific recommendations were put forward about additional services that could be organised on a regional basis primarily that is a specialist human resources resource We know that because of austerity in some local authorities HR departments have been really stretched Education HR is a specialist service it is not generic It is often a service that— I see that as part of a school improvement service Support for governors also has been stretched within individual local authorities So a proposal was put forward to include specialist HR and governor support as part of the regional model That was rejected by local government Our local authorities did not want to include that in the regional model However I must say having presented that evidence some of our local authorities even though there was not a national agreement to put that into the national model have pooled their resources and those services are being delivered and supported on a regional basis So for instance the Education Achievement Service now provide specialist HR resource and EAS and Central South provide governor support So although we were not successful in persuading local government to adopt a new national model local authorities in those areas saw the value of moving that way Hefin David AM: So with that in mind and perhaps I will put this to Steve Davies everything the Minister just said and also the line in the document— The implementation of this model will change over time— is it time to go back to that document and review it from a procedural point of view ? Steve Davies: I do not think it is necessarily timely to go back and have a complete review of it But certainly we are in ongoing discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association both in terms of work with local authorities and the type of intervention in schools So we keep a constant watch as to which areas that we believe we could develop further We are not currently intending to do a wholesale review of that As the Minister touched on earlier there is some work to get consistency across the current area particularly as we just mentioned in relation to ERW work So it is getting a consistent approach at that level and sharing the practice I think what is emerging as the Minister said is that there are two regions who have already made this shift to pool services I think the two other regions are seeing and will see the benefits of that and instead of forcing it through we would expect that to evolve But we are not at this stage looking to a wholesale review of the national model Hefin David AM: And Professor Dylan Joness strategic delivery group seems to have had quite a warm welcome in the sector Is it fair to say that ? Kirsty Williams AM: I believe so I am very grateful to Dylan for his hard work and his skill in chairing that group and I think it is been welcomed by all so that we can get that clarity and consistency about the roles and responsibilities of the individual partners and players in the middle tier Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed and what will the outcomes be ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan but also crucially that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum so that we are very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents and shall I say patchy implementation The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance It is too important It is too good to be left to chance So everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation Hefin David AM: Yes but I am thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier So you know what do we expect to see from it notwithstanding the kind of softly softly approach that you have already talked about ? Steve Davies: It was set up actually about 18 months ago—just under It was set up to build collective efficacy because what people out there are seeing is that there is a confusion of roles in what the regions are doing and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel So they have been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months and exploring and making some changes themselves It is not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other it is just happened that it is timely because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development is we have had coconstruction we would had collective effort but we need to do more particularly within the middle tier This is not controlled by Government it is arms length from Government and it is not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that is a key part of it This group will have an ongoing role it is not a task and finish group It does feed back in to the Minister but there is no formal mechanism by which they have to report Lynne Neagle AM: I have got supplementaries from Suzy then Siân Suzy Davies AM: I think this is a really interesting evidence session What I am about to say I say it even though I am a big localist : it all seems to be heading in one direction of a national service Is the strategic group even thinking in these terms obviously building in local accountability ? But it will just make it so much easier in terms of accountability and consistency to monitor what the middle tier does if it is a national service like the National Adoption Service Local delivery national service—is it heading in that direction ? Kirsty Williams AM: That is not the intention of setting the group up As Steve just said I receive feedback from Dylan because I meet Dylan in this particular capacity on a planned basis He is there to give me advice on the middle tier and to give me advice on what he thinks Welsh Government needs to do But I have not had that conversation with him about a national service Suzy Davies AM: Well thank you for that Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already that is that from what I can see the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat I felt that originally the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions But it appears that it has evolved to be something that is much more than that and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense ? Kirsty Williams AM: No not at all I think they are very very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier And absolutely it is about making sure that there is not duplication that people are not secondguessing each others work and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system and as I said knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for So I do not think there is a question of it losing focus Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit The next questions are from Siân Gwenllian","According to Kirsty, it was the current model. Although they failed to persuade the local government to adopt a new national model, the local authorities had already seen the value in it. However, they were at the stage looking to a wholesale review of the national model. Now they were all focusing on the work of implementation. At the same time, they had the risk of losing focus because of the emphasis on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system." "Hefin David AM: And when will the work be completed and what will the outcomes be ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well the group is currently engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan but also crucially that plan is there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum so that we are very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this crucial phase following the publication We have to move now from the publication into a relentless focus on implementation The history of devolution is full of fantastic documents and shall I say patchy implementation The work that has gone into that curriculum is too important for implementation to be left to chance It is too important It is too good to be left to chance So everything now is a relentless focus on successful implementation","Now the group was engaging with Steve and other officials on agreeing a plan, but also, that plan was there to support the successful implementation of the curriculum. Based on the words from Kirsty, they were very clear about the roles and responsibilities in the middle tier in this phrase following the publication. Now they had moved into a relentless focus on implementation. Basically, everything now was an emphasis on successful implementation." "Hefin David AM: Yes but I am thinking that the strategic delivery is reviewing the role of the middle tier So you know what do we expect to see from it notwithstanding the kind of softly softly approach that you have already talked about ? Steve Davies: It was set up actually about 18 months ago—just under It was set up to build collective efficacy because what people out there are seeing is that there is a confusion of roles in what the regions are doing and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel So they have been looking at who is doing what for the last 18 months and exploring and making some changes themselves It is not just what they do with Government or what they do with each other it is just happened that it is timely because one of the key bits of feedback we believe we will get from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development is we have had coconstruction we would had collective effort but we need to do more particularly within the middle tier This is not controlled by Government it is arms length from Government and it is not their job to get it ready for the new curriculum—that is a key part of it This group will have an ongoing role it is not a task and finish group It does feed back in to the Minister but there is no formal mechanism by which they have to report Lynne Neagle AM: I have got supplementaries from Suzy then Siân","Steve believed that it was set up to build collective efficacy because what people out there were seeing was a confusion of roles in what the regions were doing, and it was building that collective efficacy so everyone was behind the wheel. They would have collective effort, but they needed to do more within the middle tier." "Sian Gwenllian AM: What I was going to raise has been answered already that is that from what I can see the work that Professor Dylan Jones is doing has evolved somewhat I felt that originally the idea was to look at the middle tier in terms of any kind of duplication that was happening and where it was possible to tighten up the people going into schools from different directions But it appears that it has evolved to be something that is much more than that and that it is placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system Is there a risk for them to lose focus in that sense ? Kirsty Williams AM: No not at all I think they are very very clear around establishing roles and responsibilities for each of the players and to be very clear about the expectations that each part of the middle tier can have of each other as to what they can expect from their partners in the middle tier And absolutely it is about making sure that there is not duplication that people are not secondguessing each others work and there are clear demarcations about who does what in the system and as I said knowing that you can rely on your colleague in the middle tier to do the bit that they are responsible for So I do not think there is a question of it losing focus Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got a lot of areas to cover so we are going to have to pick up our pace a bit The next questions are from Siân Gwenllian","In Kirsty's opinion, it appeared that it was placing a focus on the curriculum and other aspects of the educational system. However, there was not a risk from them to lose focus. Absolutely, it was about making sure that there was no duplication, that people were not second-guessing each other's work. There were clear demarcations about who does what in the system. Therefore, there was not a question of losing focus." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Thinking about you as a Minister trying to see what the longterm trends are with regard to raising standards and improving educational attainment is that difficult because the performance measures have changed have not they ? We can not compare likeforlike now because of the changes that have been made in the way that performance is measured So to begin with is that a challenge to see whether progress has been made ? And secondly what evidence do you as Minister use to look at the longterm trends ? Kirsty Williams AM: The first thing to say with regard to changes to performance measures—you are right that change to those does make it in some cases more difficult to look at trends over a period of time But those changes are made for really good reasons If we change a performance measure it is done to ensure that it is in the best interests of learners And I think the best interests of learners always trumps the ease of comparison I understand that for researchers and for opposition Members even for Ministers it would be simpler to have the same set of measures over a period of time But if we know that those things are driving behaviours that are unhelpful to children and not in the best interests of children then we have to change them even thought that then does create challenges in different areas With regard to what do we look at there are a number of ways that we gain data and look at data in the system : everything from the categorisation system we spoke of earlier and trends in categorisation we look at Estyn reports we continue to look at examination results But we are trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that give us a whole picture of the education performance rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that tells you one thing but does not tell you everything But I do not know Steve if there is anything further that you would like to add Steve Davies: It is going back to what the Member raised earlier in terms of the range of things that you look at—things that can make a difference So when Estyn review schools or we are looking to develop national frameworks for things like mental health and wellbeing which look to the practice that enables raising standards it is collecting that information both at a national level through the annual review of Estyn as well as our engagement with regions and local authorities So it is looking at the evidence base that goes beyond but impacts on data And inevitably we will use the Programme for International Student Assessment and any other external assessments that come through organisations like the OECD And even where we have changed the performance measures we still have at national level the ongoing data So if you looked at level 2 plus we believe it is important that children get five good GCSEs—for higher education and for employment So we have not lost sight of those at a national level—we are not using them as a narrow set of performance measures for individual schools Kirsty Williams AM: So if we look at—level 2 plus is a good example We know that a relentless focus on that single measure as a way of judging the system leads to a set of behaviours in schools It narrows the focus onto a certain part of the cohort it narrows the curriculum when we know that children— Sian Gwenllian AM: I am not challenging the fact that you have changed the performance measures—I understand that and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run I am just saying because there is been this change it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you have made the changes but it does present more of a challenge presumably because you have to look at more indicators and take evidence from different places But I take it that you are confident that the trajectory is going in the right way Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I think we are making improvements But you are right : it does make it more challenging But those changes are being made for the right reasons as I said whether that be at level 2 plus Look at English literature I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and it must be said usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE We have changed that performance measure and guess what ? Last year we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE For standards of literacy and oracy I think studying literature is really really important before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading So we make changes Yes it causes challenges but we are making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children and that has to trump ease of comparison Sian Gwenllian AM: Why have you decided to ask the consortia Estyn and so on not to report on local data or regional level data ? How do we then come to conclusions about what is working if it is not presented on a local authority and regional basis ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government Estyn and the WLGA is it is not about not communicating the data it is about challenging people on how that data should be used So the data is still available but it is a challenge to them about how to use that data So for instance when we are presenting data that compares local authority to local authority you could have a local authority that says There we go I am above the national average I do not need to worry about the education in my local authority because I am above the average or I am better than my neighbour That does not necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you are presented with So actually it is not about hiding data it is about how you use the data appropriately And sometimes how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system So it is about how you use data and that is what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about : think very carefully about this data and what it is telling you about your system and do not be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly Or perhaps looking at your data you may think Oh my goodness me we are not doing very well at all but actually more careful consideration of that might show that your schools impact on those children is really really a positive one So you have got to use that data in the context So it is not about less data If anything it is about more data and crucially for me it is about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data about truly what it is telling you about your system Sian Gwenllian AM: But again the Welsh Government— You have continued to publish the local and regional level data So does not that contradict what you have been telling the consortia and everyone else ? Kirsty Williams AM: No not at all As I said we are not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency And in terms of level 2 data I think I am not moving away from the point that I think it is really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs I think it is important for their life chances It is about how that data is used not about hiding data or making that data not available Steve Davies: Can I very briefly— ? We did not just send a letter out collectively We have now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data So it is not just looking where your LA is it is also not looking at whether your schools better than average for the authority And it is well received and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was if I am honest looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities It is not that they should not be looking at that but they need to dig much much deeper underneath it","According to Kirsty, they were trying to develop a broader range of data and statistics that gave them a whole picture of the education performance, rather than narrowing down on one simple indicator that told only one aspect. They would use the Program for International Student Assessment, and any other external assessments that came through organizations like OECD. In addition, they believed that all the challenges and changes involved were made for the right reasons. What was crucial was that it was about more intelligent use of data and what was truly telling about the system." "Sian Gwenllian AM: I am not challenging the fact that you have changed the performance measures—I understand that and having a broader way of looking is better in the long run I am just saying because there is been this change it makes it more of a challenge—whilst accepting why you have made the changes but it does present more of a challenge presumably because you have to look at more indicators and take evidence from different places But I take it that you are confident that the trajectory is going in the right way Kirsty Williams AM: Yes I think we are making improvements But you are right : it does make it more challenging But those changes are being made for the right reasons as I said whether that be at level 2 plus Look at English literature I understand why perhaps a performance measure around English was introduced but the effect of that was that significant numbers of children—and it must be said usually children who are entitled to free school meals—were suddenly not sitting English literature GCSE We have changed that performance measure and guess what ? Last year we saw a significant increase in the number of children that were sitting English literature GCSE For standards of literacy and oracy I think studying literature is really really important before we even get into the joy of introducing children to the written word and the love of reading So we make changes Yes it causes challenges but we are making those changes because we believe that they are in the best interest of children and that has to trump ease of comparison","It was true that the change did make it more challenging. But the changes were made for the right reasons. By taking the example of learning English literature, they had come to a conclusion that they were making those changes because they believed that they were in the best interest of children, and that had to trump ease of comparison." Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think the thing to say about the communications from Welsh Government Estyn and the WLGA is it is not about not communicating the data it is about challenging people on how that data should be used So the data is still available but it is a challenge to them about how to use that data So for instance when we are presenting data that compares local authority to local authority you could have a local authority that says There we go I am above the national average I do not need to worry about the education in my local authority because I am above the average or I am better than my neighbour That does not necessarily mean that everything is right in your local education authority Perhaps your children should be doing even better than what you are presented with So actually it is not about hiding data it is about how you use the data appropriately And sometimes how we were presenting data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of their system So it is about how you use data and that is what the communication from Welsh Government and the WLGA and Estyn was about : think very carefully about this data and what it is telling you about your system and do not be lulled into a false sense of security that you may be doing brilliantly Or perhaps looking at your data you may think Oh my goodness me we are not doing very well at all but actually more careful consideration of that might show that your schools impact on those children is really really a positive one So you have got to use that data in the context So it is not about less data If anything it is about more data and crucially for me it is about more intelligent use and interrogation of that data about truly what it is telling you about your system,"The real question was not about communicating the data, but about challenging people on how the data should be used. The data was still available, but it was a challenge to them about how to use the data. Sometimes, how they presented data in the past was lulling some people into a false sense of security about the performance of the system. Therefore, it was about how they used the data. The focus shall be on the more intelligent use and interrogation of the data, and about truly what it was telling us about the system." "Sian Gwenllian AM: But again the Welsh Government— You have continued to publish the local and regional level data So does not that contradict what you have been telling the consortia and everyone else ? Kirsty Williams AM: No not at all As I said we are not in the business of trying to hide data—I believe absolutely in full transparency And in terms of level 2 data I think I am not moving away from the point that I think it is really important that more and more children get five really good GCSEs I think it is important for their life chances It is about how that data is used not about hiding data or making that data not available Steve Davies: Can I very briefly— ? We did not just send a letter out collectively We have now carried out training jointly with WLGA and Estyn on how to use that data So it is not just looking where your LA is it is also not looking at whether your schools better than average for the authority And it is well received and it should broaden the approach of scrutiny committees to beyond what historically was if I am honest looking at the league table for their authority or looking at the league table of local authorities It is not that they should not be looking at that but they need to dig much much deeper underneath it","According to Kirsty, there was no contradiction at all. They were not in the business of trying to hide the data because it was absolutely in full transparency. It was about how the data was used rather than about hiding data or making that data not available. They needed to dig much, much deeper underneath the data." "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the idea is so good and wonderful why not start over and open the dialogue now ? What is stopping the Prime Minister from being a rallying point and inviting us to take to each other and resolve the problem rather than saying that he is going to pack up his toys and go home ? The people with disabilities are the ones who will pay the price Where was the Prime Minister on October212019 ? He received a minority mandate from Quebeckers and Canadians Why is he behaving like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I have heard the Conservative Party and the Bloc Qubcois throw their accusations around They do not point out that the House of Commons did indeed give its consent to extend the mandate of the Special Committee on the COVID19 Pandemic until the end of June Three parties agreed which was the right thing to do in the context of this minority government We have been working with the other parties However as they did not get the results they wanted they complained Unfortunately they too are part of a minority Parliament and must respect the voice of the majority of parliamentarians just as we do Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I might have been tempted but that is unlikely to happen because the Prime Minister is not me he is him It is therefore up to him to bring people together open a dialogue and recall Parliament All we were asking for was the opportunity to talk for an hour or two However suddenly he does not want to play anymore It is not working anymore and there is something a bit strange about that In addition the government wants to buy the right to interfere in provincial and Quebec jurisdictions for 14billion However Quebec and a number of provinces are refusing to allow it to interfere in their jurisdictions and are asking that this money be paid to them unconditionally Is the Prime Minister trying to take advantage of the crisis or is he trying to create a constitutional crisis ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair the safety of Canadians is the responsibility of all levels of government That is why we have proposed a 14billion agreement to ensure that all Canadians across the country experience a safe reopening of the economy This is a proposal that we are working on with the provinces because we know that there are needs across the country including early childhood centres screening and support for municipalities The federal government wants to be there to help the provinces The Chair: We will now go to MrSingh Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much Mr Chair Indigenous leaders have expressed a lack of confidence in the RCMP commissioners ability to tackle fullscale systemic racism but the Prime Minister has expressed his confidence in the commissioner What is that based on ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair over the past two years Commissioner Lucki has made significant strides forward on an issue where there is still much more to do We know that systemic racism exists in all of our institutions across this country The Chair: We will now go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: This is the same RCMP commissioner who just recently said that they could not explain what systemic racism was Now the Prime Minister says that he has confidence when indigenous leaders express their lack of confidence Why does the Prime Minister believe that the RCMP commissioner can tackle systemic racism in the RCMP ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair systemic racism is something that touches every corner of our country every corner of our institutions It requires people to understand and move forward in coordinated ways with partners The commissioner is committed to doing that alongside members of our government We will do that together and work with indigenous communities and black Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair recent events have made it abundantly clear that to tackle the systemic racism at the level of the RCMP we need a fullscale overhaul of the RCMP Is the Prime Minister committed to a fullscale overhaul of the RCMP to root out systemic racism ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: As I have said many times Mr Chair I am committed to addressing systemic racism in this country and taking significant bold actions to reduce the amount of discrimination that indigenous peoples that racialized Canadians face on a daily basis We have much work to do but we will do it together Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair Black Lives Matter has been calling for governments to defund the police What it is saying is that we need to be better at where we spend our money investing in communities and not policing Will the Prime Minister commit to a review of the RCMP budget to allocate resources to community services and not to policing ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair over the past years we have been investing more directly and more money in community organizations in the black community and working with indigenous partners on the path to reconciliation We have been investing in the kinds of communitybased programs and solutions that are part of the solution We know there is much more to do and we will continue to look at all of our expenditures to make sure we are doing the right things Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair over the past few years while the Prime Minister has been in office the RCMP budget has increased by 31 More money is going towards policing In recent events we have seen people who needed a health care response to a health care crisis been killed by the RCMP Does the Prime Minister believe that we need to be investing in a health care response instead of a police response for people who are faced with a crisis ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the member opposite well knows that it is not an eitheror We need to make sure that our systems across the board from our police systems to our judicial systems to our health care systems to our community systems are actually addressing the systemic discrimination issues that are embedded within them That is exactly what we are going to continue to do in the coming years","When it comes to the governmental issues, some of the members, for example, Justin Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh had a heated debate over the way of the distribution of the fund. The root of their debate was the problem of systematic racism in the RCMP, and many other institutions at home. Therefore, a revolution might be needed in those institutions. In terms of the revolution, Jagmeet Singh pointed out that the governmental fund should be allocated to medical care instead of RCMP, for that during the outbreak of COVID-19, emergent needs had shown in the medical field." "Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the idea is so good and wonderful why not start over and open the dialogue now ? What is stopping the Prime Minister from being a rallying point and inviting us to take to each other and resolve the problem rather than saying that he is going to pack up his toys and go home ? The people with disabilities are the ones who will pay the price Where was the Prime Minister on October212019 ? He received a minority mandate from Quebeckers and Canadians Why is he behaving like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I have heard the Conservative Party and the Bloc Qubcois throw their accusations around They do not point out that the House of Commons did indeed give its consent to extend the mandate of the Special Committee on the COVID19 Pandemic until the end of June Three parties agreed which was the right thing to do in the context of this minority government We have been working with the other parties However as they did not get the results they wanted they complained Unfortunately they too are part of a minority Parliament and must respect the voice of the majority of parliamentarians just as we do Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I might have been tempted but that is unlikely to happen because the Prime Minister is not me he is him It is therefore up to him to bring people together open a dialogue and recall Parliament All we were asking for was the opportunity to talk for an hour or two However suddenly he does not want to play anymore It is not working anymore and there is something a bit strange about that In addition the government wants to buy the right to interfere in provincial and Quebec jurisdictions for 14billion However Quebec and a number of provinces are refusing to allow it to interfere in their jurisdictions and are asking that this money be paid to them unconditionally Is the Prime Minister trying to take advantage of the crisis or is he trying to create a constitutional crisis ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair the safety of Canadians is the responsibility of all levels of government That is why we have proposed a 14billion agreement to ensure that all Canadians across the country experience a safe reopening of the economy This is a proposal that we are working on with the provinces because we know that there are needs across the country including early childhood centres screening and support for municipalities The federal government wants to be there to help the provinces The Chair: We will now go to MrSingh","When talking about the issue of allocating the governmental fund, Yves-Fran questioned why their prime minister at present was acting like something between a prime minister with a majority and a monarch by divine right, he further pointed out that the government was meant to use the $14 million fund to interfere with the political affair of Quebec. But according to Justin Trudeau, the $14 million fund would actually be used to guarantee their people's safety during the pandemic outbreak." "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair over the past two years Commissioner Lucki has made significant strides forward on an issue where there is still much more to do We know that systemic racism exists in all of our institutions across this country The Chair: We will now go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: This is the same RCMP commissioner who just recently said that they could not explain what systemic racism was Now the Prime Minister says that he has confidence when indigenous leaders express their lack of confidence Why does the Prime Minister believe that the RCMP commissioner can tackle systemic racism in the RCMP ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair systemic racism is something that touches every corner of our country every corner of our institutions It requires people to understand and move forward in coordinated ways with partners The commissioner is committed to doing that alongside members of our government We will do that together and work with indigenous communities and black Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair recent events have made it abundantly clear that to tackle the systemic racism at the level of the RCMP we need a fullscale overhaul of the RCMP Is the Prime Minister committed to a fullscale overhaul of the RCMP to root out systemic racism ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: As I have said many times Mr Chair I am committed to addressing systemic racism in this country and taking significant bold actions to reduce the amount of discrimination that indigenous peoples that racialized Canadians face on a daily basis We have much work to do but we will do it together Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair Black Lives Matter has been calling for governments to defund the police What it is saying is that we need to be better at where we spend our money investing in communities and not policing Will the Prime Minister commit to a review of the RCMP budget to allocate resources to community services and not to policing ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair over the past years we have been investing more directly and more money in community organizations in the black community and working with indigenous partners on the path to reconciliation We have been investing in the kinds of communitybased programs and solutions that are part of the solution We know there is much more to do and we will continue to look at all of our expenditures to make sure we are doing the right things Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair over the past few years while the Prime Minister has been in office the RCMP budget has increased by 31 More money is going towards policing In recent events we have seen people who needed a health care response to a health care crisis been killed by the RCMP Does the Prime Minister believe that we need to be investing in a health care response instead of a police response for people who are faced with a crisis ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the member opposite well knows that it is not an eitheror We need to make sure that our systems across the board from our police systems to our judicial systems to our health care systems to our community systems are actually addressing the systemic discrimination issues that are embedded within them That is exactly what we are going to continue to do in the coming years","When discussing the governmental issue of dealing with systematic racism, Justin Trudeau mentioned that actually there had been serious systematic racism in most national institutions for the past two years, so he called for a revolution in those organizations to welcome equal cooperation with the black colleagues and indigenous communities. One of those institutions, RCMP, had another problem of the inappropriate fund allocation. According to Justin Trudeau, during the outbreak of the pandemic, the fund should be paid to the medical system but not the policing work." "Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair with regard to the CERB extension can the Prime Minister guarantee that everyone who is receiving CERB payments now will continue to do so without any gaps throughout the summer ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair I am happy to highlight that many Canadians who were on the CERB are now returning to work Many more who are on the CERB now will be returning to work in the coming weeks We know that as the economy gets back to work people will want to The Chair: We will go back to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Can the Prime Minister assure people who need it that they will continue to receive the CERB over the summer yes or no ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We are very pleased to point out that we are going to extend the Canada emergency response benefit for at least another eight weeks because a lot of people are going to need it Even if they want to work there are not enough jobs for everyone So we will be there for them as we have been from the beginning The Chair: We are going to pause and suspend proceedings just for a few moments to allow our support staff to substitute for one another in a healthy and safe way We will now proceed with Ms McLeod Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Mr Chair it was really a surprise in the middle of a pandemic to see the Prime Minister at his first campaign stop last week in Ottawa Certainly the game plan has become very transparent He has a daily report show and he wants to sideline Parliament dominate the news cycle and keep everyone in the dark about the state of the economy According to the Parliamentary Budget Officer there is no reason that he can not provide the fiscal update during the COVID19 pandemic and the PBO has published a number of reports himself Why will not the Prime Minister provide a fiscal update so we can all understand the state of our economy or is that just not part of his campaign playbook ? Hon. Mona Fortier (Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance): Thank you Mr Chair Canadas economy is in a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID19 We have been clear about that We will continue to be open and transparent about the actions that we are taking to support families businesses workers our health care system and our economy This includes biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic measures Once it is possible to provide a clear economic projection we will provide an update We are in this together and we are prepared to do whatever is necessary to support Canadians Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Chair Canadas economy was in trouble prior to the COVID with some of the worst numbers since 2009 Government revenues in March dropped by 72 and it is shameful and quite frankly it is outrageous that they refuse to provide Parliament and Canadians with an economic update Households during this challenging time know how much money is coming in and they know how much money is going out The picture is not pretty but they know what the picture is Can the finance minister at least reveal the projected revenue decline in quarters one and two ? Hon. Mona Fortier: The Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID19 We have known this for three months We have continued to be open and transparent about the measures we have put in place for Canadians workers and businesses In fact we have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of our plans measures As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections we will provide a comprehensive update to Canadians The Chair: We go back to Ms McLeod Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Other governments have managed to provide updates for their citizens and carry out their responsibilities but of course this government has sidelined Parliament with simply a questionbutnoanswer period Let us try something else The forestry industry was in crisis even before the pandemic with mills closing down and thousands of jobs lost Eight weeks ago Minister Freeland said I have had many discussions with leaders in our forestry sector and the provinces about what we can do to support the industry today Meanwhile we have had support going to the arts and we have had support going to fisheries just to name a few but arguably for the industry that was having some of the most numerous challenges it has been radio silence That was eight weeks ago today Can the government at least commit to releasing an updated softwood lumber transition plan before we rise ? Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr Chair we remain committed of course to the forestry industry and seeing it through this pandemic and this very uncertain time The expanding market opportunities program for instance has helped Canadas forestry sector diversify create jobs and open new markets We have had new construction projects that are active today using Canadian wood in key markets like Korea Japan China and the United States Tomorrow this House will vote on our governments investment of 2097 million for this program It is part of our budget 2019 commitment to invest 251 million over three years and I hope the opposition will support us in that Mrs. Cathy McLeod: It was stated in a major newspaper this morning that this government is like a sexy sports carvroom vroom vroombut with a history of breakdowns and major repairs I think that might describe what has been happening For forestry it has been eight weeks and there has been nothing There is another area that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland did talk about We were talking about the YOUS softwood lumber duties that are being held in the United States It is billions of dollars being held with the YOUS treasury In April she acknowledged that these duties are a real issue for the softwood lumber industry What is been done since that time ? Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): Mr Chair Canadas forestry industry supports good middleclass jobs in communities across our country The sector is also an essential link in the medical equipment supply chain and we thank them for all the work they are doing We are aware of the immense pressures faced by this sector especially at this time and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland and others are taking that seriously and working through this issue As our government has said repeatedly we firmly believe that the YOUS duties on Canadian softwood lumber are unfair and unwarranted and we will pursue all means in order to The Chair: Before continuing I want to remind honourable members who are at home to make sure that the boom on their headsets is down It just makes a better pickup We heard everything but it was a little distant That is for everyone is benefit We are now going to continue with MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): MrChair before I ask my question I would like to pay tribute to the Minister of Justice particularly to his versatility Today he talked about forests Yesterday the Minister of Justice talked about Davie and indigenous affairs Really this minister is very versatile My question is directly for the Minister of Finance I like MrLametti very much but I would like MrMorneau to answer my question Yesterday in a Senate parliamentary committee the Minister of Finance halfopened the door to an economic update Based on what he said it seems that as we speak a committee of the Department of Finance is working on an economic update Could MrMorneau tell Canadians when he is going to table this economic update ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair as we know the Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections we will provide a full update to Canadians Right now we can say that we have supported workers businesses and Canadians with the emergency measures we have put in place We will continue to do so because we need to be sure that Canadians can get through this crisis Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I thought it was too good to be true The Minister of Finance is opening the door and the Minister of Small Business is closing it We do not know when the economic update will take place yet all across Canada provinces are doing economic updates Could MrMorneau explain to Canadians why he is unable to give one ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair since the beginning of the crisis we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID19 and we have provided immediate assistance to Canadians businesses and workers Over 25million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy In addition 84million Canadians The Chair: We are returning to MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair next Friday the Quebec minister of finance EricGirard will give an economic update If EricGirard can give one for Quebec why can not BillMorneau give one for Canada ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair once again we have been open and transparent from the outset We have devoted our energy to support Canadians workers and businesses We will continue to do so Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I can not judge the quality of the work done by the provinces but what I do know is that Quebec Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically Those provinces are able to table economic updates Yesterday Saskatchewan even tabled a budget Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all Canadians ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times We have continued to be open and transparent We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan Once again as soon as clear economic projections can be provided we will provide an update Mr. Grard Deltell: The minister talks about the total cost of the governments economic expenditures So I ask the question : so far over the past three months how much has the pandemic cost Canadians ? Hon. Mona Fortier: As I said earlier it is important to note that we have put forward measures including the wage subsidy which have helped more than 25million Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I have been trying for four minutes to get anything remotely resembling an answer and I am getting absolutely nothing I am not asking questions for myself I am asking questions for Canadians Why are the government and the Minister of Finance Bill Morneau not able to table an economic update when some provinces are able to ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Once again I would like to remind my hon colleague that we have provided interestfree loans to businesses More than 669000loans have been approved We have continued to support businesses and Canadians during this time The Chair: MrDeltell you have time for a very brief question Mr. Grard Deltell: The only thing that distinguishes the provinces that table economic updates and the current government is political will Why does Bill Morneau not have the political will to tell Canadians the truth ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Once again we have been open and transparent As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections we will provide Canadians with a full update","Justin Trudeau was confident about the economic recovery after the pandemic, however, Cathy McLeod and Mona Fortier and some other members did not agree with him for that they thought Canada was undergoing an extreme uncertain time during which no one could foresee a bright future unless the prime minister kept the revenue report public. Furthermore, statistics showed that actually Canada had suffered decline in revenue in both the first and second season this year, and the forestry industry even reported depression before the outbreak. Various evidence showed a great challenge to the Canadian economy." "Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Other governments have managed to provide updates for their citizens and carry out their responsibilities but of course this government has sidelined Parliament with simply a questionbutnoanswer period Let us try something else The forestry industry was in crisis even before the pandemic with mills closing down and thousands of jobs lost Eight weeks ago Minister Freeland said I have had many discussions with leaders in our forestry sector and the provinces about what we can do to support the industry today Meanwhile we have had support going to the arts and we have had support going to fisheries just to name a few but arguably for the industry that was having some of the most numerous challenges it has been radio silence That was eight weeks ago today Can the government at least commit to releasing an updated softwood lumber transition plan before we rise ? Hon. Seamus O'Regan (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr Chair we remain committed of course to the forestry industry and seeing it through this pandemic and this very uncertain time The expanding market opportunities program for instance has helped Canadas forestry sector diversify create jobs and open new markets We have had new construction projects that are active today using Canadian wood in key markets like Korea Japan China and the United States Tomorrow this House will vote on our governments investment of 2097 million for this program It is part of our budget 2019 commitment to invest 251 million over three years and I hope the opposition will support us in that Mrs. Cathy McLeod: It was stated in a major newspaper this morning that this government is like a sexy sports carvroom vroom vroombut with a history of breakdowns and major repairs I think that might describe what has been happening For forestry it has been eight weeks and there has been nothing There is another area that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland did talk about We were talking about the YOUS softwood lumber duties that are being held in the United States It is billions of dollars being held with the YOUS treasury In April she acknowledged that these duties are a real issue for the softwood lumber industry What is been done since that time ? Hon. David Lametti (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada): Mr Chair Canadas forestry industry supports good middleclass jobs in communities across our country The sector is also an essential link in the medical equipment supply chain and we thank them for all the work they are doing We are aware of the immense pressures faced by this sector especially at this time and Deputy Prime Minister Freeland and others are taking that seriously and working through this issue As our government has said repeatedly we firmly believe that the YOUS duties on Canadian softwood lumber are unfair and unwarranted and we will pursue all means in order to","When talking about the uncertainty of Canadian economy and what the government should do, Cathy McLeod mentioned that the forestry industry even suffered depression before the outbreak of the COVID-19. The plants closed, and thousands of workers were unemployed. Meanwhile, both the art industry and fishery industry had received support from the government. Therefore, Cathy McLeod asked for more attention to the forestry to help them go through the difficulty. In response to her petition, ministers said that they did consider a lot of the solutions, including further investment and industrial revolution." "The Chair: Before continuing I want to remind honourable members who are at home to make sure that the boom on their headsets is down It just makes a better pickup We heard everything but it was a little distant That is for everyone is benefit We are now going to continue with MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): MrChair before I ask my question I would like to pay tribute to the Minister of Justice particularly to his versatility Today he talked about forests Yesterday the Minister of Justice talked about Davie and indigenous affairs Really this minister is very versatile My question is directly for the Minister of Finance I like MrLametti very much but I would like MrMorneau to answer my question Yesterday in a Senate parliamentary committee the Minister of Finance halfopened the door to an economic update Based on what he said it seems that as we speak a committee of the Department of Finance is working on an economic update Could MrMorneau tell Canadians when he is going to table this economic update ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair as we know the Canadian economy is going through a period of extraordinary uncertainty As soon as it is possible to provide clear economic projections we will provide a full update to Canadians Right now we can say that we have supported workers businesses and Canadians with the emergency measures we have put in place We will continue to do so because we need to be sure that Canadians can get through this crisis Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I thought it was too good to be true The Minister of Finance is opening the door and the Minister of Small Business is closing it We do not know when the economic update will take place yet all across Canada provinces are doing economic updates Could MrMorneau explain to Canadians why he is unable to give one ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair since the beginning of the crisis we have implemented the economic action plan to respond to COVID19 and we have provided immediate assistance to Canadians businesses and workers Over 25million jobs were protected by the Canada emergency wage subsidy In addition 84million Canadians The Chair: We are returning to MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair next Friday the Quebec minister of finance EricGirard will give an economic update If EricGirard can give one for Quebec why can not BillMorneau give one for Canada ? Hon. Mona Fortier: MrChair once again we have been open and transparent from the outset We have devoted our energy to support Canadians workers and businesses We will continue to do so Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I can not judge the quality of the work done by the provinces but what I do know is that Quebec Saskatchewan and Newfoundland have also made efforts to support their residents economically Those provinces are able to table economic updates Yesterday Saskatchewan even tabled a budget Why is Bill Morneau unable to table an economic update for all Canadians ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Let me repeat for my hon colleague that we are going through extraordinarily uncertain times We have continued to be open and transparent We have reported biweekly to Parliament on the total cost and status of the measures in our economic response plan Once again as soon as clear economic projections can be provided we will provide an update","Since many members called for more governmental support for their respective industry, MonaFortier, as the Minister of Middle-Class Prosperity and Associate Minister of Finance responded that Canadian government had financially supported more than 2.5 million jobs with wage subsidy. In addition, she promised to lay stress on supporting the industry, the workers, and all the Canadians in their next working phase, as well as keeping the revenue report updated and public." "The Chair: We will now continue with Mr Saroya Mr. Bob Saroya (MarkhamUnionville, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair COVID19 has sparked and spurred antiAsian racism These are not just racist comments online Asian Canadians have been attacked What is the government doing to combat antiAsian racism ? Hon. Bardish Chagger (Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth): Mr Chair since our government took office in 2015 we have been making investments and working with communities The difference between our government and the previous government is that we will actually consult with Canadians including black Canadians including Asian Canadians to respond to the challenges including with an antiracism secretariat and an antiracism strategy It will take all of us I appreciate the members question so that we can also work together Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair one business owner I know in Markham has operated for 20 years Now she is looking at over 9000 in rent due on June 24 COVID19 has crippled her sales and she is going to go out of business Her landlord has no interest in the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program How can the government say this program is working ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair this program was made possible by working with the provinces and we will continue to encourage landlords and tenants to work together to make sure they have relief for this very difficult time in which they are living We are continuing to monitor the CECRA program and we will make it possible for businesses to have access to the program Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair the government business rent relief program has been a total disaster Even the governments own numbers show it is a failure As of June 8 less than 2 of the 3 billion budgeted has been spent What is it going to take for the government to admit that the program is a disaster and needs changes ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we know our government has been working closely with the provinces and territories to deliver the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance Although the tenantlandlord relationship is ultimately the responsibility of the provinces and territories our government has stepped up to provide support through the tools we have and through CMHC so that small businesses can get the rent relief they need Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair according to the government there are around 11 million small businesses in Canada At committee we were told only around 5500 of them are receiving COVID19 rent relief That number is shameful When will the Liberal government wake up and make the changes ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we welcome the steps some provinces and territories have taken to further protect commercial tenants We will continue to monitor this program closely and ensure that Canadas small businesses are supported during this challenging time We will continue to monitor to see The Chair: We will go back to Mr Saroya Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair there was no answer When can the government make these changes ? Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr Chair I want to assure the honourable colleague that we are doing everything and will continue to do everything to help small businesses in our country Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair on May 27 the CBSA seized 65 small handguns at Pearson airport the largest firearms seizure on record It is clear that smuggled handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals Why is the Prime Minister focusing on an ineffective municipal ban ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr Chair I would point out that gun violence in any of our communities is unacceptable and it is important that governments and communities take steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals That is why we do important work at our border to keep guns from being smuggled into our country but it also necessitates additional work I do not think you can talk about gun violence without talking about stronger gun control That is why our government has taken a very strong position and will strengthen gun control to keep Canadians safe The Chair: Mr Saroya you may have a 10second question if that is possible please Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair COVID19 has not stopped gun violence in the GTA My constituents are concerned about shootings minutes away from their homes We know the Liberals gun ban will not change anything but a focus on smuggled guns and criminals will When will they make that change ? Hon. Bill Blair: Mr Chair stronger gun control laws are an effective tool and that is been told to us by police leadership and communities across the country We are also making investments in borders and law enforcement Most importantly we are making investments in communities and in kids to keep communities safe I look forward to the members strong support of those measures when we bring them forward","The group mentioned that during the pandemic, countless individual businesses reported bankruptcy, which would do harm to social stability. Therefore, according to Mona Fortier, Canadian government had tried a lot to support them. However, not so many people were willing to accept the rent reduction, indicating that the policy might not be very effective. Another problem related to social safety was the handgun smuggling. Bill Blair, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, in response to the firearms seizure issue, promised to implement a stronger gun control in the near future." "Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair one business owner I know in Markham has operated for 20 years Now she is looking at over 9000 in rent due on June 24 COVID19 has crippled her sales and she is going to go out of business Her landlord has no interest in the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program How can the government say this program is working ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair this program was made possible by working with the provinces and we will continue to encourage landlords and tenants to work together to make sure they have relief for this very difficult time in which they are living We are continuing to monitor the CECRA program and we will make it possible for businesses to have access to the program Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair the government business rent relief program has been a total disaster Even the governments own numbers show it is a failure As of June 8 less than 2 of the 3 billion budgeted has been spent What is it going to take for the government to admit that the program is a disaster and needs changes ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we know our government has been working closely with the provinces and territories to deliver the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance Although the tenantlandlord relationship is ultimately the responsibility of the provinces and territories our government has stepped up to provide support through the tools we have and through CMHC so that small businesses can get the rent relief they need Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair according to the government there are around 11 million small businesses in Canada At committee we were told only around 5500 of them are receiving COVID19 rent relief That number is shameful When will the Liberal government wake up and make the changes ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we welcome the steps some provinces and territories have taken to further protect commercial tenants We will continue to monitor this program closely and ensure that Canadas small businesses are supported during this challenging time We will continue to monitor to see","The government said that they had carried out a plan of reducing the rent for those individual business to go through the harsh time of the pandemic, however, as Bob Saroya pointed out, not so many people were willing to accept the little fund from the government, which made the plan not effective at all. Mona Fortier, in response to him, promised to follow up and monitor those businessmen and lords, as well as pay more attention to their CMHC support program." "Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair on May 27 the CBSA seized 65 small handguns at Pearson airport the largest firearms seizure on record It is clear that smuggled handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals Why is the Prime Minister focusing on an ineffective municipal ban ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr Chair I would point out that gun violence in any of our communities is unacceptable and it is important that governments and communities take steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals That is why we do important work at our border to keep guns from being smuggled into our country but it also necessitates additional work I do not think you can talk about gun violence without talking about stronger gun control That is why our government has taken a very strong position and will strengthen gun control to keep Canadians safe The Chair: Mr Saroya you may have a 10second question if that is possible please Mr. Bob Saroya: Mr Chair COVID19 has not stopped gun violence in the GTA My constituents are concerned about shootings minutes away from their homes We know the Liberals gun ban will not change anything but a focus on smuggled guns and criminals will When will they make that change ? Hon. Bill Blair: Mr Chair stronger gun control laws are an effective tool and that is been told to us by police leadership and communities across the country We are also making investments in borders and law enforcement Most importantly we are making investments in communities and in kids to keep communities safe I look forward to the members strong support of those measures when we bring them forward","According to Bill Blair, gun violence in any of the communities was unacceptable, and it was important that governments and communities took steps to prevent guns from getting into the hands of criminals, especially during the special period of the pandemic outbreak. In terms of the gun smuggling, he also said that in order to thoroughly ban the violence, they had to keep an extremely strong attitude and carry out strict laws over the gun issue." "Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair I will say that this is no substitute for Parliament but I appreciate the opportunity New Brunswick families and businesses are rapidly making adjustments to manage and live with the coronavirus pandemic Businesses here are opening and services are being offered Families are preparing for summer and even planning ahead for a new school year in September We have a lot of work ahead of us One notable absence is Service Canada When does the government plan on opening its service counters to assist Canadians again ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr Chair our government is committed to ensuring that Canadians continue to have access to the benefits that they rely on through Service Canada We have redeployed over 3000 additional staff to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to their benefits We have established a 1500agent call centre to make sure that people can get access to the phone lines to get the help they need Mr. John Williamson: Service Canada is about more than providing COVID19 information and benefits Provincial governments are working hard to adjust to Canadas new normal by opening up businesses and frontline government services When will we see Service Canada play its role and open its service counters in our communities ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we are currently working with our worldclass public health experts to determine how best to reopen the Service Canada network for the public Make no mistake : Our Service Canada employees have gone above and beyond to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to the services that they rely on and the benefits that they need Mr. John Williamson: Please do not hide behind health experts when the Prime Minister is appearing in the middle of large protests yet is afraid to bring back the Parliament of Canada to do its business In fact the New Brunswick legislature is open for regular business Bills are being studied opposition input is being heard and MLAs are voting on legislation not rubberstamping government bills By comparison our Parliament is stuck in pretending it can not function like other lawmaking assemblies Canadians are in the dark about our countrys finances When will the government table an economic update so taxpayers understand what was spent what is owed by our kids and grandchildren and what the governments fiscal footing looks like ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr Chair nobodys hiding Nobodys doing anything like that The only reason my colleague is able to ask a question and I am able to answer his question is that he is right there on the screen We have this hybrid format that cares for MPs across the country not only the ones sitting in the House Mr. John Williamson: This is no substitute for Parliament I will ask my question again When will the government table an economic update so that taxpayers understand what was spent what is owed by our kids and grandchildren and what the governments fiscal footing looks like in todays environment ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair I thank my honourable colleague for his question Canadas economy is still in a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID19 We have been open and transparent about the measures we have been providing to support families businesses and workers Even our health care The Chair: We will go back to Mr Williamson Mr. John Williamson: Except you have not The Auditor General is underfunded We have no idea about the total of government spending Again I will ask when the government will table an economic update so that we can have an understanding of what the governments fiscal footing looks like Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we have included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning I have said and I will continue to say that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection we will provide an update Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the governments COVID19 relief measures as the minister just claimed the government has provided to Parliament ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we have provided support for workers and 25 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy We have provided businesses with some loans and 669000 businesses have applied for these loans Even for the CERB we have over eight million Canadians who have applied The Chair: We will now continue with MrBergeron Mr. Stphane Bergeron: MrChair as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago the government promised 14billion to Quebec and the provinces but in targeted transfers That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis But Quebec and the provinces do not just want this money to be transferred unconditionally they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds interference into provincial jurisdictions The federal government which does not manage any hospitals or longterm care centres must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health that is Quebec and the provinces Will it do so without delay and without nitpicking ? The Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): MrChair we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them As part of this cooperation we have developed health and safety recommendations for workplaces we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The cooperation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal governments coffers In fact when the federal government wants to impose conditions it always takes longer We see it with housing for which Quebec has not received a dime of the 14billion it is owed We have also seen it with infrastructure funds particularly for public transit water systems and water treatment The health crisis is now The needs are now The much needed reopening of our economy is now Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibbling ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around no quibbling nothing of the kind There is cooperation between two levels of government It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to cooperate with Quebec and all the provinces That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like It likes bickering but for the time being there is none Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We do not want to bicker we want the money to be paid out It is not complicated for heavens sake ! We do not want a blank cheque Right now the money remains in the federal governments coffers There is 14billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the federal governments coffers We are waiting for money for water treatment and water systems but it is sitting in the federal governments coffers It is almost July We are wasting precious months for construction What is the government waiting for to pay out the money so that we can get our economy rolling ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: The federal government is a very active partner We are discussing and working with Quebec on infrastructure projects We are continuing our discussions and negotiations on the housing agreement Nothing is at a standstill We are discussing and cooperating for the wellbeing of all Quebeckers Mr. Stphane Bergeron: MadamChair things are definitely at a standstill because the money is owed and has not been paid out Months are going by while construction is not taking place We need to reopen the economy We need more flexibility in the gas tax program and Quebecs contribution to allow municipalities to undertake work on city halls community centres and fire stations We need the federal government to contribute to funding public transit operations which have become a real financial drain because of the drop in ridership What is the federal government waiting for to provide real help instead of just talking ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: When it comes to just talking the Bloc Qubcois has a lot of experience I admit We in the government are working and cooperating We are not waiting with our arms folded we are discussing a series of issues with Quebec We do more than discuss we work and we cooperate We are working on projects not only in infrastructure but in a number of other areas Just think of the cooperation of our armed forces in the CHSLDs for example We are here for Quebeckers","As John Williamson, the member from New Brunswick Southwest mentioned, what Service Canada had done was far from enough. Service Canada should be responsible for helping their people to adjust to the post-pandemic situation more quickly and recovering the national economy. The government members tried to persuade him that the government was doing a lot to make the revenue condition clear to the public, and their support fund was already prepared. Also in terms of the support fund, Bergeron went on to ask for a closer cooperation between Canadian government and Quebec to guarantee the regional development and stability during the pandemic." "Mr. John Williamson (New Brunswick Southwest, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair I will say that this is no substitute for Parliament but I appreciate the opportunity New Brunswick families and businesses are rapidly making adjustments to manage and live with the coronavirus pandemic Businesses here are opening and services are being offered Families are preparing for summer and even planning ahead for a new school year in September We have a lot of work ahead of us One notable absence is Service Canada When does the government plan on opening its service counters to assist Canadians again ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr Chair our government is committed to ensuring that Canadians continue to have access to the benefits that they rely on through Service Canada We have redeployed over 3000 additional staff to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to their benefits We have established a 1500agent call centre to make sure that people can get access to the phone lines to get the help they need Mr. John Williamson: Service Canada is about more than providing COVID19 information and benefits Provincial governments are working hard to adjust to Canadas new normal by opening up businesses and frontline government services When will we see Service Canada play its role and open its service counters in our communities ? Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair we are currently working with our worldclass public health experts to determine how best to reopen the Service Canada network for the public Make no mistake : Our Service Canada employees have gone above and beyond to ensure that Canadians continue to have access to the services that they rely on and the benefits that they need Mr. John Williamson: Please do not hide behind health experts when the Prime Minister is appearing in the middle of large protests yet is afraid to bring back the Parliament of Canada to do its business In fact the New Brunswick legislature is open for regular business Bills are being studied opposition input is being heard and MLAs are voting on legislation not rubberstamping government bills By comparison our Parliament is stuck in pretending it can not function like other lawmaking assemblies Canadians are in the dark about our countrys finances When will the government table an economic update so taxpayers understand what was spent what is owed by our kids and grandchildren and what the governments fiscal footing looks like ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: Mr Chair nobodys hiding Nobodys doing anything like that The only reason my colleague is able to ask a question and I am able to answer his question is that he is right there on the screen We have this hybrid format that cares for MPs across the country not only the ones sitting in the House Mr. John Williamson: This is no substitute for Parliament I will ask my question again When will the government table an economic update so that taxpayers understand what was spent what is owed by our kids and grandchildren and what the governments fiscal footing looks like in todays environment ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair I thank my honourable colleague for his question Canadas economy is still in a period of extraordinary uncertainty due to COVID19 We have been open and transparent about the measures we have been providing to support families businesses and workers Even our health care The Chair: We will go back to Mr Williamson Mr. John Williamson: Except you have not The Auditor General is underfunded We have no idea about the total of government spending Again I will ask when the government will table an economic update so that we can have an understanding of what the governments fiscal footing looks like Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we have included biweekly reports to Parliament on the full cost and status of our economic response plan measures since the beginning I have said and I will continue to say that when it is possible to provide a clear economic projection we will provide an update Mr. John Williamson: What is the full cost to date of the governments COVID19 relief measures as the minister just claimed the government has provided to Parliament ? Hon. Mona Fortier: Mr Chair we have provided support for workers and 25 million Canadians have been helped through the Canadian wage subsidy We have provided businesses with some loans and 669000 businesses have applied for these loans Even for the CERB we have over eight million Canadians who have applied","Since there was a lot of absence in public service during the pandemic outbreak, John Williamson thought the Service Canada should be to blame for their irresponsibility. Mona Fortier justified themselves by illustrating that the government was always supporting the families, the industries, and the workers by offering support funds. However, what the public would like to see was complete and exact statistics of the financial support from the government, but not always claiming that ""they were doing hard""." "The Chair: We will now continue with MrBergeron Mr. Stphane Bergeron: MrChair as the leader of the Bloc Qubcois mentioned a few moments ago the government promised 14billion to Quebec and the provinces but in targeted transfers That is very little compared to the considerable expenses incurred to deal with the current crisis But Quebec and the provinces do not just want this money to be transferred unconditionally they also want a real discussion on a permanent increase in health care transfers PremierLegault was rightly concerned about the feds interference into provincial jurisdictions The federal government which does not manage any hospitals or longterm care centres must stop playing armchair quarterback and transfer the money to the only governments with jurisdiction over health that is Quebec and the provinces Will it do so without delay and without nitpicking ? The Honourable Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): MrChair we know that the Government of Quebec is working hard to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and we are here to support them As part of this cooperation we have developed health and safety recommendations for workplaces we have purchased medical equipment for workers and we have supported the province in developing its reopening program We are continuing this important partnership to ensure the safety of Quebeckers and all Canadians Mr. Stphane Bergeron: The cooperation is so effective that the money is staying in the federal governments coffers In fact when the federal government wants to impose conditions it always takes longer We see it with housing for which Quebec has not received a dime of the 14billion it is owed We have also seen it with infrastructure funds particularly for public transit water systems and water treatment The health crisis is now The needs are now The much needed reopening of our economy is now Will the government finally transfer the money without messing around or quibbling ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I am pleased to confirm to my colleague that there is no messing around no quibbling nothing of the kind There is cooperation between two levels of government It is natural to have discussions with all the provinces and with Quebec I myself am taking part in some discussions and several of my colleagues are taking part in others There is a clear willingness on the part of the federal government to cooperate with Quebec and all the provinces That is what we are doing and that is perhaps what the Bloc Qubcois does not like It likes bickering but for the time being there is none Mr. Stphane Bergeron: We do not want to bicker we want the money to be paid out It is not complicated for heavens sake ! We do not want a blank cheque Right now the money remains in the federal governments coffers There is 14billion that should be paid to Quebec for social housing and is sitting in the federal governments coffers We are waiting for money for water treatment and water systems but it is sitting in the federal governments coffers It is almost July We are wasting precious months for construction What is the government waiting for to pay out the money so that we can get our economy rolling ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: The federal government is a very active partner We are discussing and working with Quebec on infrastructure projects We are continuing our discussions and negotiations on the housing agreement Nothing is at a standstill We are discussing and cooperating for the wellbeing of all Quebeckers Mr. Stphane Bergeron: MadamChair things are definitely at a standstill because the money is owed and has not been paid out Months are going by while construction is not taking place We need to reopen the economy We need more flexibility in the gas tax program and Quebecs contribution to allow municipalities to undertake work on city halls community centres and fire stations We need the federal government to contribute to funding public transit operations which have become a real financial drain because of the drop in ridership What is the federal government waiting for to provide real help instead of just talking ? Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: When it comes to just talking the Bloc Qubcois has a lot of experience I admit We in the government are working and cooperating We are not waiting with our arms folded we are discussing a series of issues with Quebec We do more than discuss we work and we cooperate We are working on projects not only in infrastructure but in a number of other areas Just think of the cooperation of our armed forces in the CHSLDs for example We are here for Quebeckers","When it comes to the cooperation between two levels of government, Bergeron said that Canadian government once promised to offer $14 million to support Quebec and other provinces to go through the difficulty, but only in targeted transfers. Notwithstanding how promising it seemed, under the current situation, what they needed might be an unconditional transfer, especially towards the medical care system. Under the pressure of the people, the government had to reconsider their cooperation of the armed forces in the CHSLDs, as well as their support for Quebeckers."