meeting_transcript,summary "PhD D: Sure because I I need a lot of time to to put the label or to do that Professor E: I mean we we know that there s noise There s there s continual noise from fans and so forth and there is more impulsive noise from taps and so forth and and something in between with paper rustling We know that all that s there and it s a g worthwhile thing to study but obviously it takes a lot of time to mark all of these things Whereas th i I would think that you we can study more or less as a distinct phenomenon the overlapping of people talking So Then you can get the Cuz you need If it s three hundred i i it sounds like you probably only have fifty or sixty or seventy events right now that are really And and you need to have a lot more than that to have any kind of even visual sense of of what s going on much less any kind of reasonable statistics PhD C: Now why do you need to mark speaker overlap by hand if you can infer it from the relative energy in the Grad G: Well that s That s what I was going to bring up PhD C: I mean you should not need to do this p completely by hand Professor E: OK So let s back up because you were not here for an earlier conversation PhD C: right ? I m sorry Professor E: So the idea was that what he was going to be doing was experimenting with different measures such as the increase in energy such as the energy in the LPC residuals such as I mean there s a bunch of things I mean increased energy is is sort of an obvious one PhD C: Mm In the far field mike Professor E: and it s not obvious I mean you could you could do the dumbest thing and get get it ninety percent of the time But when you start going past that and trying to do better it s not obvious what combination of features is going to give you the you know the right detector So the idea is to have some ground truth first And so the i the idea of the manual marking was to say `` OK this i you know it s it s really here `` PhD A: But I think Liz is saying why not get it out of the transcripts ? PhD C: What I mean is pause get it from the close talking mikes A or ge get a first pass from those Professor E: We t we t w we t we talked about that PhD C: and then go through sort of It would be a lot faster probably to Professor E: We we we talked about that s But so it s a bootstrapping thing and the thing is the idea was i we i i we thought it would be useful for him to look at the data anyway and and then whatever he could mark would be helpful and we could it s a question of what you bootstrap from You know do you bootstrap from a simple measurement which is right most of the time and then you g do better or do you bootstrap from some human being looking at it and then then do your simple measurements from the close talking mike I mean even with the close talking mike you are not going to get it right all the time PhD C: Well that s what I wonder because or how bad it is be because that would be interesting Grad G: I m working on a program to do that and PhD C: especially because the bottleneck is the transcription Right ? I mean we ve got a lot more data than we have transcriptions for We have the audio data we have the close talking mike so I mean it seems like one kind of project that s not perfect but that you can get the training data for pretty quickly is you know if you infer form the close talking mikes where the on off points are of speech you know how can we detect that from a far field ? Grad G: I ve I ve written a program to do that PhD C: OK I m sorry I missed the Grad G: and so but it s it s doing something very very simple It just takes a threshold based on on the volume PhD F: Or you can set the threshold low and then weed out the false alarms by hand Grad G: and then it does a median filter and then it looks for runs And it seems to work I ve I m sort of fiddling with the parameters to get it to actually generate something and I have not I do not what I m working on was working on was getting it to a form where we can import it into the user interface that we have pause into Transcriber And so I told I said it would take about a day I ve worked on it for about half a day so give me another half day and I we will have something we can play with Professor E: See this is where we really need the Meeting Recorder query stuff to be working because we ve had these meetings and we ve had this discussion about this and I m sort of remembering a little bit about what we decided PhD C: Right I m sorry I just Professor E: but I could not remember all of it So I think it was partly that you know give somebody a chance to actually look at the data and see what these are like partly that we have e some ground truth to compare against you know when when he he gets his thing going PhD C: Well it s definitely good to have somebody look at it I was just thinking as a way to speed up you know the amount of Professor E: That was that was exactly the notion that that that we discussed","To save time, speaker mn005 will only mark the sample of transcribed data for regions of overlapping speech, as opposed to marking all acoustic events. The digits extraction task will be delegated to whomever is working on acoustics for the Meeting Recorder project." "PhD F: As opposed to the rest of us PhD D: Well comment OK I I remind that me my first objective eh in the project is to to study difference parameters to to find a a good solution to detect eh the overlapping zone in eh speech recorded But eh tsk comment ehhh comment In that way comment I I I begin to to study and to analyze the ehn the recorded speech eh the different session to to find and to locate and to mark eh the the different overlapping zone And eh so eh I was eh I am transcribing the the first session and I I have found eh eh one thousand acoustic events eh besides the overlapping zones eh I I I mean the eh breaths eh aspiration eh eh talk eh eh clap eh comment I do not know what is the different names eh you use to to name the the pause n speech Grad G: Oh I do not think we ve been doing it at that level of detail So PhD D: Eh I I I do I do not need to to to mmm to m to label the the different acoustic but I prefer because eh I would like to to study if eh I I will find eh eh a good eh parameters eh to detect overlapping I would like to to to test these parameters eh with the another eh eh acoustic events to nnn to eh to find what is the ehm the false eh the false eh hypothesis eh nnn which eh are produced when we use the the ehm this eh parameter eh I mean pitch eh eh difference eh feature PhD A: You know I think some of these that are the nonspeech overlapping events may be difficult even for humans to tell that there s two there I mean if it s a tapping sound you would not necessarily or you know something like that it would be it might be hard to know that it was two separate events Grad G: Well You were not talking about just overlaps were you ? You were just talking about acoustic events PhD D: I I I I t I t I talk eh about eh acoustic events in general but eh my my objective eh will be eh to study eh overlapping zone Eh ? comment n Eh in twelve minutes I found eh eh one thousand acoustic events Professor E: How many overlaps were there in it ? No no how many of them were the overlaps of speech though ? PhD D: How many ? Eh almost eh three hundred eh in one session in five eh in forty five minutes Alm Three hundred overlapping zone With the overlapping zone overlapping speech speech what eh different duration Postdoc B: Does this ? So if you had an overlap involving three people how many times was that counted ? PhD D: three people two people Eh I would like to consider eh one people with difference noise eh in the background be Professor E: No no but I think what she s asking is pause if at some particular for some particular stretch you had three people talking instead of two did you call that one event ? PhD D: Oh Oh I consider one event eh for th for that eh for all the zone This th I I I con I consider I consider eh an acoustic event the overlapping zone the period where three speaker or eh are talking together Grad G: So let s say me and Jane are talking at the same time and then Liz starts talking also over all of us How many events would that be ? PhD D: So I do not understand Grad G: So two people are talking comment and then a third person starts talking Is there an event right here ? PhD D: Eh no No no For me is the overlapping zone because because you you have s you have more one eh more one voice eh eh produced in a in in a moment Grad G: So i if two or more people are talking Professor E: OK So I think We just wanted to understand how you are defining it So then in the region between since there there is some continuous region in between regions where there is only one person speaking And one contiguous region like that you are calling an event Is it Are you calling the beginning or the end of it the event or are you calling the entire length of it the event ? PhD D: I consider the the nnn the nnn nnn eh the entirety eh eh all all the time there were the voice has overlapped This is the idea But eh I I do not distinguish between the the numbers of eh speaker I m not considering eh the the ehm eh the fact of eh eh for example what did you say ? Eh at first eh eh two talkers are eh speaking and eh eh a third person eh join to to that For me it s eh it s eh all overlap zone with eh several numbers of speakers is eh eh the same acoustic event Wi but without any mark between the zone of the overlapping zone with two speakers eh speaking together and the zone with the three speakers Postdoc B: That would j just be one PhD D: Eh with eh a beginning mark and the ending mark Because eh for me is the is the zone with eh some kind of eh distortion the spectral I do not mind By the moment by the moment Grad G: Well but But you could imagine that three people talking has a different spectral characteristic than two PhD D: I I do not but eh but eh I have to study comment What will happen in a general way Grad G: So You had to start somewhere PhD C: So there s a lot of overlap PhD D: I I do not know what eh will will happen with the Grad G: That s a lot of overlap Professor E: So again that s that s three three hundred in forty five minutes that are that are speakers just speakers Postdoc B: But a a a th Professor E: So that s about eight per minute Postdoc B: But a thousand events in twelve minutes that s PhD C: But that can include taps Postdoc B: Well but a thousand taps in eight minutes is a l in twelve minutes is a lot PhD D: I I con I consider I consider acoustic events eh the silent too Grad G: Silence starting or silence ending PhD D: silent ground to bec to detect eh because I consider acoustic event all the things are not eh speech In ge in in in a general point of view Professor E: OK so how many of those thousand were silence ? PhD F: Not speech not speech or too much speech Professor E: Right So how many of those thousand were silence silent sections ? PhD D: silent I I I I do not I I have not the eh I I would like to to do a stylistic study","Efforts by speaker mn005 are in progress to detect overlapping speech. For a single transcribed meeting, speaker mn005 reported approximately 300 cases of overlap. Future work will involve manually deriving time marks from sections of overlapping speech for the same meeting, and then experimenting with different measures, e.g. energy increase, to determine a set of acoustically salient features for identifying speaker overlap. " "Professor E: And and the I mean the other side to it was the what which is where we were coming from I will I will talk to you more about it later comment is that is that there s there s the radio stations and television stations already have stuff worked out presumably related to you know legal issues and and permissions and all that I mean they already do what they do do whatever they do So it s it s So it s so it s another source So I think it s something we should look into you know we will collect what we collect here hopefully they will collect more at UW also and and maybe we have this other source But I think that it s not unreasonable to aim at getting you know significantly in excess of a hundred hours I mean that was sort of our goal The thing was I was hoping that we could in the under this controlled situation we could at least collect you know thirty to fifty hours And at the rate we are going we will get pretty close to that I think this semester And if we continue to collect some next semester I think we should PhD C: Right I was mostly trying to think `` OK if you start a project within say a month you know how much data do you have to work with And you you want to s you want to sort of fr freeze your your data for awhile so right now and we do not have the transcripts back yet from IBM right ? Do Oh do we now ? Professor E: Well we do not even have it for this f you know forty five minutes that was PhD C: So not complaining I was just trying to think you know what kinds of projects can you do now versus six months from now and they are pretty different because Professor E: So I was thinking right now it s sort of this exploratory stuff where you you look at the data you use some primitive measures and get a feeling for what the scatter plots look like and and and and meanwhile we collect and it s more like three months from now or six months from now you can you can do a lot of other things PhD C: Cuz I m not actually sure just logistically that I can spend you know I do not want to charge the time that I have on the project too early before there s enough data to make good use of the time And that s and especially with the student for instance this guy who seems anyway I should not say too much but if someone came that was great and wanted to do some real work and they have to end by the end of this school year in the spring how much data will I have to work with with that person And so it s Professor E: i so I would think exploratory things now three months from now I mean the transcriptions I think are a bit of an unknown cuz we have not gotten those back yet as far as the timing but I think as far as the collection it does not seem to me l like unreasonable to say that in January you know ro roughly which is roughly three months from now we should have at least something like you know twenty five thirty hours PhD C: And we just do not know about the transcription part of that Postdoc B: we need to I think that there s a possibility that the transcript will need to be adjusted afterwards and es especially since these people will not be used to dealing with multi channel transcriptions","Approximately 12-13 hours of Meeting Recorder data have been collected, roughly 45 minutes of which have been transcribed. Additional meetings by other ICSI research groups will be recorded. A suggestion was made that multi-channel data also be collected in cooperation with local media broadcasters, and that such events might be recorded live from ICSI. " "Professor E: Well we should also check with Mari again because they because they were really intending you know maybe just did not happen but they were really intending to be duplicating this in some level So then that would double pause what we had And there s a lot of different meetings at UW I mean really m a lot more comment than we have here right cuz we are not right on campus PhD A: Is the notion of recording any of Chuck s meetings dead in the water or is that still a possibility ? Professor E: they seem to have some problems with it We can we can talk about that later but again Jerry is Jerry s open So I mean we have two speech meetings one network meeting Jerry was open to it but I I s One of the things that I think is a little a little bit of a limitation there is a think when the people are not involved in our work we probably can not do it every week You know ? I I I I think that that people are going to feel are going to feel a little bit constrained Now it might get a little better if we do not have them do the digits all the time And the then so then they can just really sort of try to put the mikes on and then just charge in and PhD C: What if we give people you know we cater a lunch in exchange for them having their meeting here or something ? Postdoc B: Well you know I I do think eating while you are doing a meeting is going to be increasing the noise But I had another question which is you know in principle w I know that you do not want artificial topics but it does seem to me that we might be able to get subjects from campus to come down and do something that would not be too artificial I mean we could political discussions or or something or other and i you know people who are Because you know there s also this constraint We d it s like you know the the goldibears goldi goldilocks it s like you do not want meetings that are too large but you do not want meetings that are too small And a and it just seems like maybe we could exploit the subj human subject p p pool in the positive sense of the word PhD A: Well even I mean coming down from campus is sort of a big thing but what about or what about people in the in the building ? PhD C: I was thinking there s all these other peo PhD A: I mean there s the State of California downstairs and Grad G: I just really doubt that any of the State of California meetings would be recordable and then releasable to the general public So I I mean I talked with some people at the Haas Business School who are i who are interested in speech recognition and they sort of hummed and hawed and said `` well maybe we could have meetings down here `` but then I got email from them that said `` no we decided we are not really interested and we do not want to come down and hold meetings `` So I think it s going to be a problem to get people regularly PhD A: What about Joachim maybe he can Professor E: But but we c But I think you know we get some scattered things from this and that And I I d I do think that maybe we can get somewhere with the with the radio i I have better contacts in radio than in television but PhD A: You could get a lot of lively discussions from those radio ones PhD C: Well and they are already they are these things are already recorded we do not have to ask them to even and I m not sure wh how they record it but they must record from individual Professor E: n Well No I m not talking about ones that are already recorded I m talking about new ones because because because we would be asking them to do something different PhD C: Well we can find out I know for instance Mark Liberman was interested in in LDC getting pause data and Professor E: Right that s the found data idea But what I m saying is if I talk to people that I know who do these th who produce these things we could ask them if they could record an extra channel let s say of a distant mike And you I think routinely they would not do this So since I m interested in the distant mike stuff I want to make sure that there is at least that somewhere and But if we ask them to do that they might be intrigued enough by the idea that they might be e e willing to the I might be able to talk them into it Grad G: We are getting towards the end of our disk space so we should think about trying to wrap up here PhD C: That s a good way to end a meeting Professor E: OK Well I do not why do not we why d you why do not we turn them turn Grad G: OK leave leave them on for a moment until I turn this off cuz that s when it crashed last time Postdoc B: Oh That s good to know Professor E: Turning off the microphone made it crash Well Postdoc B: That s good to know",The group aims to collect over 100 hours of Meeting Recorder data in total. Speaker consent forms are being revised. It was suggested that subjects should sign a new consent form after 10 recording sessions. "Marketing: That went well thank you Project Manager: Alright let me just PowerPoint this up Right so this meeting will be about the conceptual design do not ask me s precisely what conceptual design is it is just something important that we need to do think of it s kind of turning the abstract into slightly more concrete In this meeting ideally we will come to some final decisions on what we are going to do for the prototype Right so apologies for the last meeting it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting fair enough thanks for the input s always good So basically all we are going to do is have some presentations again much like last time and going to go through you whoever wants to go first is f fine by me and we will collate what we know about what we discussed in the last meeting possible directions And then we will make some more decisions on basic firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work So perfect So without th further ado whoever wants to go first is free to take it away It is Nathan right ? I am not calling you the wrong name over and over again ? Industrial Designer: It is either Nathan or participant two User Interface: Mister participant two that is Industrial Designer: basically what I am going to have to talk to you about today is component design and it is been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers so Basically what I am going to be doing is talking to you about that components of a remote control We have already kind of gone over this but we are going to have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon Energy source our manufacturer offers a variety of energy sources your standard battery solar cells Our manufacturer did not say anything about lithium so we might have to look if we do go that route we might have to look elsewhere and also there is a kinetic energy possibility Basically it is like a the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running So that is one possibility but I do not know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen So we will have to look into that the case we have a few options plastic rubber or wood and then as far as the way it is shaped we can do standard boring flat which we probably do not want to do curved or very sexy double curved Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ? Industrial Designer: I imagine that we could specify I do not see any reason to go outside of the convention of three or four millimetres the buttons there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer but to use those we would have to use more chips and that would cost us more And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case we will have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons are not compatible with that and just a little note there touch screen equals many chips which equals many Euro one thing that I noticed was that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can not see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that And if you were to record if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part use visible light coming out of the remote just kind of as a fun gimmick So you could actually see something coming out of the remote when you pushed it Course it would have to be a part of the spectrum that would not damage the human eye or anything like that Project Manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like Industrial Designer: I am sure that we could do that of course Project Manager: I like the idea it is a good idea Industrial Designer: just as a fun gimmick Just to set us apart a little bit and then on to the circuit board that we are going to use also known as the chip we really do not have any way around the TA one one eight three five findings we are very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer and my question to all of you is should we look to other manufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ? S a bit of a challenge question Marketing: Well I would say shop around but with our time constraints is that really a feasible option ? Industrial Designer: Right that is my concern too if we do go the lithium battery route then we will have to go outside our current manufacturer My personal preference is I will just throw my cards on the table I think we should probably go the solar battery route just to kind of keep with the environmentally friendly theme that we have going on I like the idea of the visible light signalling that is something to set us apart and I was thinking about I was thinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes So we are not so confined by one style and say some you know say our the one if we just go with one and it does not go over well then we are in a bad situation Project Manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind before we launch can we see how they are received ? Marketing: It is an option but actually there is I have got some research already on like what we are looking at and trends in casing right now which actually might even come into play beforehand it may help us decide for now Temporarily anyway Project Manager: Great thank you very much Nathan That is perfect so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here Marketing: I guess so because I found some interesting things You waiting for me ? I know what a teaser are not it Right So current market trends Screen basically I was looking at what is going on in the remote control market right now and what is going on in other design fields to see sort of what is what is trendy what is new what is happening remote control right now basically everybody says they want newer fancier more exciting they are sick of this boring normal functional that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface the challenge is that current trends right now across the board in fashion in furniture in technology is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing Now I am not saying we should have you know tomato shaped remote controls or anything but I think it is possible maybe to use natural colours like if wood is an option that whole organic sleek clean v line thing may be something we can look into Different skin options or if we can not afford this touch plate thing or touch face screen interface maybe having the b images be specific like you could choose your menu bullets to be or not the example I would choose but you know what I mean to t sort of and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy User Interface: I like it I like it Marketing: not something I I have come up with a though if we can get around to getting piloting I thought maybe a casing option like not like a skin but like a holder almost if you could do like leather options or wood options or something Industrial Designer: I should have mentioned this As far as the rubber that we can use we can use a rubber as part of the case it has a consistency of those stress balls Marketing: Might be an interesting way to go so something to sit on for now So overall I think we should stick with what we are finding everyone is looking for easy to use technologically innovative and this fancy new I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now Project Manager: Interface oh the interface graphics for the Marketing: Well I d but then if the touch screen thing is not going to work out for us that is really a nonissue Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it is tends to be associated with being durable something that you can drop and it does not matter you go to so many houses these days and you see broken remote controls Taped with duck tape and what have you you would not have that problem if you used rubber Project Manager: it is ubiquitous is not it ? User Interface: We can have a duck tape casing Marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something a new line User Interface: It could go with the granola crowd Marketing: Ah it could be it could be that is what I know User Interface: Phew Computers adjusting One moment please So interme interface concept by your faithful user interface designer So yur user interface guys is basically aspects of a computer system that we can see or hear or otherwise perceive commands and mechanisms that basically user uses to control the operator operating system Here is a d series of different remote controls that are out on the market today I think we are definitely trying to get away from this kind of a look so the following are a bunch of different interface concepts voice recognition we we actually have some new information from our research design team but I will get to that in a moment so current voice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control Now our design team research team has been able to set up a system in which you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to with standard responses Like you could say good morning remote control and it will say in a sexy female voice Good morning Joe In fact we already have this for a coffee maker line Project Manager: Lot of single people on the on the re on the remote control research team User Interface: another concept is what Apple has come up with the spinning wheel with LC display like on the iPod which I am sure most of you know about and then we have the scroll button with integrated pushbutton kind of like a modern a bit bulky a bit crazy I do not think that is we are necessarily going for And some special components ideas like blocking having the ability to block channels from your for your children and dedicated buttons for for commonly used channels and even ideas like secured or hidden programming but I again if we go with touch screen I do not think that is a big issue and this is kind of the the big daddy of remote controls here the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose again probably not what we are going for so I I mean my ideas here and kind of where I think we are heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod with a hard cla c plastic casing although I think some of the suggestions we have come up with are definitely very good ideas changeable casings our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our bottom line touch screen interface possibly having goto buttons being stuck into the system so those do not move away from the screen the important ones like power volume and jump between channels and of course our voice command system which I have talked a little bit about already and the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features that are around so red for power arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not And perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh mm for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank has jokes when it is ready And that is about it Project Manager: Great wonderful Ron cool Lot of good ideas good facts to have That is what they need it is like a little dongle it just sticks up this further so you do not have to stand up every time just connect it my kingdom","According to the Industrial Design, there might be only a few choices for the energy source and materials from the current manufacturer, so he suggested that they had better look for another manufacturer for more alternatives. The Marketing put forward to design a user-friendly interface while the User Interface came up with the idea of including the voice recognition system into the remote control in order to provide better communication with the users. Apart from that, spinning wheels on the iPod and secured programming were also suggested." "Industrial Designer: I should have mentioned this As far as the rubber that we can use we can use a rubber as part of the case it has a consistency of those stress balls Marketing: Might be an interesting way to go so something to sit on for now So overall I think we should stick with what we are finding everyone is looking for easy to use technologically innovative and this fancy new I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now Project Manager: Interface oh the interface graphics for the Marketing: Well I d but then if the touch screen thing is not going to work out for us that is really a nonissue Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it is tends to be associated with being durable something that you can drop and it does not matter","While discussing their presentations on the appearance design, both the Industrial Design and the Marketing put forward to use rubber as the material rather than other things like wood. The Industrial Design agreed to choose rubber because it can stand beat, drop and extrusion." User Interface: although I think some of the suggestions we have come up with are definitely very good ideas changeable casings our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our bottom line touch screen interface possibly having goto buttons being stuck into the system so those do not move away from the screen the important ones like power volume and jump between channels and of course our voice command system which I have talked a little bit about already and the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features that are around so red for power arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not And perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh mm for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank has jokes when it is ready And that is about it,"The User Interface affirmed their previous efforts at first, but he thought that was not enough, so he went on to propose that they might consider buying another face plate and include a touch screen. In terms of the buttons on the screen, the User Interface found the existing problem that some of the buttons would be stuck in the screen and not so easy to be found and touched, so he suggested making those essential buttons in conspicuous colours like red." "Project Manager: Right so good to know all that stuff thanks guys Now we kind of have to come to some decisions I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it Based on what Nathan presented as far as the various costs and benefits I think I do not know what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ? Marketing: I think it is our most marketable feature just because it is so new and it is something that is showing up in other places But can we really afford it because it looks like they would be that would be a really main cost source then Industrial Designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it is going to cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote that is just an estimate though User Interface: Oh you guys are always the dampers on these projects Marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ? Industrial Designer: I thought there was some flexibility with that Project Manager: There is it is just it is a question of and how much ca o does that mean we are going to have to increase the price to make money Marketing: Can we justify it ? Project Manager: from twelve fifty if we d want to get our fift hundred per cent profit margin that would mean selling it from twenty five If you multiply seventeen fifty by two that is thirty five User Interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ? Industrial Designer: That is just off the top of my head it is pending further emails Marketing: Though I think that is what people would pay for I mean if you are going to pay for an expensive high class remote you are going to expect it to do something Project Manager: That is true I mean Industrial Designer: It is the new it would be in a class of its own Project Manager: And that is to be fair the the per cent of the market we are not going for mass any you know mass sales anyway we are going to make I mean we we are not talking about selling eight zillion of these things we just could not not for twentyfive Euros so we could probably maybe shrink the profit margins rather than selling for twenty five sell them for thirty but that is something that we can have finance deal with I say that we provisionally go with the touch screen or wh y wh what was your thought on the matter Ron ? User Interface: I am thinking that is definitely a good idea and I also think that we could probably come up with some sort of a cheaper means to to go about this kind of production my my team in the on the third floor suggested that Marketing: See if we can cut some corners Right Well and we can look into this other manufacturing option and maybe we can get them somewhere else cheaper Industrial Designer: We could initially go with what we have and if we can find them cheaper later on Marketing: Right It is a starting point anyway so Project Manager: No we could have a s very simple touch screen you know there is always the opportunity if it is going to be about the size of the iPod or whatever you know w we I guess we can play around with it a bit Alright let us let us say that so the touch screen will be our our main selling point here User Interface: I mean I think that we really have two main selling points I think that our casing and the voice recognition Marketing: because with voice recognition I mean really this is pretty bells and whistles kind of remote Project Manager: I mean if if we are looking at bottom line now we are looking at upping the cost to seventeen to get the touch screen on I think we might have to drop the voice rec Marketing: I think we would have to decide between them definitely User Interface: To be honest we have the capa we have the design inhouse I mean we have we have come up with this with this new voice we are using it for our coffee machines already Marketing: We have already got it User Interface: I can pass you on that email from my guy in guy down the hall Sounds good Project Manager: What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ? Industrial Designer: I think if we we do both the obviously production costs are going to go way up but it does put it into it would become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically It would be very nice User Interface: I mean we we have to r reflect back on what our market research did say Marketing: Right and they said they wanted voice recognition Course maybe they had not thought of this whole touch screen option but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we are not going to use it even though we know it will sell is a call I do not think I can give the highs ups Like really I can not go in and say no we are going to just ignore everything we know User Interface: Does having both really up our costs ? Project Manager: I can not see how it would not I mean there is you know the old aphorism you can have it fast you can have it cheap or you can have it quality pick two of three You know you can not you can not have all three Industrial Designer: because you you just upping the number of chips that you need to deal with each different function Project Manager: Well if we are going to pick betwe e alright so we have to pick between one of the two Otherwise we just it just becomes cost prohibitive What which which do we suspect we should hold o we should hold on to ? Marketing: Well we already have research backing voice recognition as you know fiscally solvent But I I I personally would tend to another direction but if that is what is going to sell I think that is what we need to go with and maybe we can table this touch screen for our next model Industrial Designer: I would have to side with that I think the voice recognition is simpler we already have the all the technology inhouse it is ready to go it is packaged it is Project Manager: What does the cost look like Ron ? Is it cheaper to do the VR or to do the touch screen ? Industrial Designer: this is just off the top of my head keep in mind but I think the voice recognition would they are both mm they are both going to push the costs up but since we already have the technology inhouse for the voice recognition we are not going to have to do as much design work and sometimes the design work is what push the costs up if you know what I mean User Interface: I definitely have to agree with that last comment Marketing: And we are still not then we do not have to deal with this battery issue nearly as much either we can stick with what we have already got In a lot other ways too Project Manager: So I am getting alright so more or less you guys think that o o of the two of them the voice recognition will be better Marketing: I think it is our lower risk option which for right now we can have it on the market sooner which is all in all our best option Project Manager: We will omit the touch screen in favour of voice recognition User Interface: It is you and me outside a little here","The group found that if they would use the touch screen as well as the voice recognition technique, the cost would up to 17 euros. On the other hand, in order to guarantee the one hundred percent profit, the price would be more than 30, which would risk losing potential consumers. Provided that they would control the cost within 12.5 euros, they would have to cut off some functions, for example, voice recognition. It was really hard to balance between the popular tastes, the cost and the quality." "Project Manager: I think we might have to drop the voice rec Marketing: I think we would have to decide between them definitely User Interface: To be honest we have the capa we have the design inhouse I mean we have we have come up with this with this new voice we are using it for our coffee machines already Marketing: We have already got it User Interface: I can pass you on that email from my guy in guy down the hall Sounds good Project Manager: What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ? Industrial Designer: I think if we we do both the obviously production costs are going to go way up but it does put it into it would become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically It would be very nice User Interface: I mean we we have to r reflect back on what our market research did say Marketing: Right and they said they wanted voice recognition Course maybe they had not thought of this whole touch screen option but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we are not going to use it even though we know it will sell is a call I do not think I can give the highs ups","When the group found that it was hard to balance between the cost and functions, the Project Manager proposed to give up the voice recognition and keep the touch screen. But according to Marketing’s research, even if the interviewees were not informed of the touch screen, they showed a great preference for voice recognition. So just for catering to popular tastes, the Marketing insisted that they should keep the voice recognition in any case." "User Interface: I have to say though that another ideas come up in my head If we are really not handling the remote control to a great extent we could possibly get away from the idea of having a handheld remote control and maybe kind of have a round remote control that kind of looks like a paperweight or something like that kind of a sleek little neat thing that sits on your table or something Industrial Designer: Why why moving away from handheld why ? What is the idea ? User Interface: Well if you do not need to pick it up it could kind of be a selling point Marketing: I if it is got voice recognition it can be technically anywhere in your room and still do its job Industrial Designer: Do you think people that are people that buy a remote are they always going to want to use the voice recognition or is it just something that they do sometimes Marketing: True and i probabl I think we are banking on selling it to more than just voice recognition people like we want it to work fundamentally as a basic manual too","The User Interface proposed to give up the idea of a hand-held model and give its way to the voice recognition system, while the Industrial Design thought it would be necessary for remote control to be able to be held in hand. Industrial Design believed that not all the people would always use the voice recognition system and most of the time they have to take it by hand. For most, voice recognition is only a kind of addition. If the remote control was not in a suitable shape, like something round, it would bring some troubles." "Project Manager: moving on to not fun stuff project finance basically what we are trying to do is sell this remote for twenty five Euros This is what the finance department has told me the CFO but I do not know I am not sold on this it is pretty dear I mean twenty f that is like you know forty bucks for a remote It would have to pretty much like do my laundry for me so what we can maybe work on that a later but we are going to make a lot on it the profit aims to make fifty million Euros on it Eur internationally So one of the things I I was going to mention to you you guys the designers is that it m we probably need a rever it needs to be a universal remote control probably so something that could do NTSC as well as PAL as well as various other formats like if it is going to control DVDs I will leave that to you guys but that is something that i i it is going to be an international sold thing but we want to try to make it for twelve fifty So we want to try to make a hundred percent profit on it if we can s right so just to close up I am not sure how much time I have used mm next time right Project Manager sorted Is we will meet in another half an hour or so and I would like the Industrial Designer to get ge think about what needs to be done like what the basic function of it UID well you right g your assignments are up there and you will also get s assignments from in your email as well more spec specifics on what do do mm basic and so I need you to tell us what we what the users going to want Marketing: What they are looking for","According to the Project Manager, the finance department proposed to price the product at 25 euros and make a profit of fifty million euros in total. However, the cost might be at only twelve fifty, meaning that the profit would be at one hundred percent." "User Interface: I assume that we are building a stand alone remote control we can not kind of build it into other products For instance like a mobile phone or something like that Marketing: I do not think there is any rules about it yet So Industrial Designer: Maybe our personal coach will have something to say about that User Interface: Or or you know can we produ can we sell a remote control phone for twenty five pounds or less ? Project Manager: Well have a think about it I am I am certainly op it seems like it it seems like it is certainly doable is not it I mean or if we can not have a full mobile phone maybe a remote that has some other kind of useful function The clapper No I mean no good idea good idea We will see what see what Industrial Designer: Maybe a remote with changeable faces like the faces that you can buy for phones Marketing: I like the little cover thingies Project Manager: Uhhuh y I like that That is true I guess we we probably have some time maybe we should brainstorm a bit like what we want to do go back to I do not really have any Let me bring up something about our basic goals here what we want to accomplish project announcement Ts ts ts Not so much All right we will find them we are on our own User Interface: Now are we also discussing kind of our initial ideas at all here ? Project Manager: let us do it let us do User Interface: S does anybody have any initial ideas ? Project Manager: I am going to go ahead and take notes on this too because Marketing: Good idea Start your minutes Project Manager: I mean oh right So initial ideas Marketing: Well it is pretty much given it is going to be universal right we decided that already and it may be functioning for other things as soon as you said that I was thinking like all the other things you could get a remote to do like your microwave or your front door or like to have everything on one thing","The User Interface proposed to build a stand-alone one, which can be different from any other devices. The Project Manager then added that it might be better with more useful functions like changing the faces. Marketing came up with the idea of making it be functional for other devices as well, just including everything in this remote control." "Marketing: but then I have never been a fan of those huge remotes that have like a million buttons you can not tell what they do User Interface: But I am thinking I am thinking kind of PDA design so touch screen design rather than button Industrial Designer: Oh right That would be different User Interface: so that you can kind of flip around all sorts of different things Project Manager: is not it I mean like stylist like a just a Right so we got five minutes more to chat about this perfect so we have got this kind of an idea of a tradeoff between size and functionality Marketing: Right We want it to be munt multifunctional but at the same time if you get it to do too much you are not going to be able to tell them apart Industrial Designer: It is going to be too complicated too crowded with buttons and things Project Manager: I am also going to note for future reference this idea of so you like maybe like an L like a touch screen type of remote ? I do not think one exists","In terms of the great idea of making a multifunctional remote control, a new problem occurred that no one would be in favour of the product if it is too large or it is too complex to remember which button is for a certain function. One possibly feasible solution was to make it a remote control with a touch screen." "Industrial Designer: I think making it out of a nice material would be very important because so many of those remotes that you see these universal remotes look so cheap and low quality Marketing: Keeping it nice and slick would be important And I do not know like there is such a problem with losing them that adding this whole like PDA pen business is only one more thing to lose so we are going to have to be careful with what like Just something like keep in mind when we start actually dealing with this stuff but that would be really cool User Interface: I like the idea of the multi plate","Industrial Designer was unsatisfied with the existing remote controls, for that they are seemingly cheap and of low quality. Thus the Industrial Designer intended to make it nice and slick, maybe something with multi plates." "Marketing: Is not there a name for them ? Are they ? I do not know Industrial Designer: we will have to come up with a name User Interface: We should c we should come up with a fuzzy one as well For those cold winter days","After coming up with the idea of multi plates, the Industrial Designer asked to give the remote control a name and patent it. Within a brief discussion, they named it as Leopard Print out of the hope that it would also be helpful in cold winter days." "Project Manager: We do have the minimum am amount I mean we were talking finances I do not know selling a a forty Pound remote would h or a forty Dollar remote twenty five Euro remote would be pretty you know it is pretty expensive so maybe we might want to trade off some of the features for a lower price Without without getting into that whole like you know go down to bargain store remote you know bargain store universal remote that is black and you know m massive some kind of I do not know a balance there in somewhere But have a think about what we can do have a think about what we want to do how we are going to sell it Marketing: Or if you our users in mind like these grandmas are not going to be into this whole new let us design no it is they are used to the buttons so we will have to be careful of exactly who we are marketing this to and who we are going to be able to get it out of User Interface: We are talking twenty five Pounds or twenty five Euros ? Project Manager: They are all weaker than they are all stronger than the Dollar Although computer parts all if you are going to upgrade your computer buy it in the States Like do you guys know Frys ? Huge computer electronics store ? They serve right they sa tha s they will sell things overseas so you can buy stuff in America and have it shipped over for like twenty thirty Pounds about Right so let us go ahead and wrap that up here for now I am going to put these initial ideas that we have got in the project documents so if you guys wa need a reminder about what we have talked about the different you know kind of tradeoffs that we have got and the other ideas you can consult them at your leisure","For fear that the exorbitant price of 25 euros of the remote control would shock the potential consumers, Project Manager proposed to trade off some functions for a lower price. Additionally, Project Manager mentioned an American computer electronics store to show that shipping products overseas can also make profits and then added this to the whole plan." Industrial Designer: First I will tell you something about the findings what I discovered about the remote control The working bout it of it then I will have some kind of map and it is the top of the remote control With a little bit of science you I will show that in in a few minutes And then what I will think about it First the findings The remote control is a very difficult thing to to explain to just all of you wh who have not seen a remote control inside there is a lot of plastic on it because its not so expensive And there are a lot of wires which connect the components in it the battery and there are switches and things like that There is a lot of small electronics So it will not be too expensive to build it Only twelve Euro fifty I think we will make it Now And here I have the top of the remote control here is some kind of chip on top of this there are the numbers you have all on your remote control And the teletext button And here is the battery And when you push the button it will will be sent to the chip And the chip will send it to all kind of subcomponents That is what I said it is very difficult And after that it will be sent to the infrared And that will send it to your television That is a short h how it works I think I can make it difficult but we all we all do not get it My preferences ? It is it will not be We should not make it too big also for the cost we should only put one battery on it A longlasting battery also for the cost use only plastic Not other materials Also because of the cost not too much buttons on it We can also make a button with a menu button And then that that you will see it on the TV And on the TV you can switch into the menu That is I think it is easier And the bleep signal y you told us but we can also use it a bleep like something when the batterys empty then there is a bleep Then you will have to change it in a in a week or something And also the bleep when what I told you about when you lost it and you push a button and then you hear bleep bleep and we will find it This is just,"There were a lot of small wires connecting the components, the battery and the switches. On the top of the remote control, there was the chip, buttons with numbers and teletext. Industrial Designer suggested that the remote control should be small and contain only one long-lasting battery to cut cost. And a bleep could be added to remind the battery usage." "Project Manager: The battery You say one battery is cheaper Why ? Industrial Designer: If we w if we use only just one small penlight then it will be cheaper than when we use two Project Manager: but when you use two you can use it two times longer Industrial Designer: but then we will have to make the remote control long lasting Project Manager: so it is the size of the remote control and the buttons When you use it on the television you have you need the television wh which can use it Industrial Designer: But I think this our remote control is for the televisions we we sell in our company ? Or is it also for other company for other televisions ? Project Manager: I think we have to use it also on other televisions though Industrial Designer: Then this is an option Maybe just a menu button to use it on our televisions And then we make it easier for our televisions And on the other tele televisions you can also use it but then we will not use the Project Manager: but I do not I think it They are two different things though We have to choose one It has to work on o all televisions Industrial Designer: ? Then I think the menu button will only work on the newer televisions And we will look forward and do not make a remote control which for the older televisions","Project Manager questioned the reason why not to use two batteries and Industrial Designer argued that two batteries would enlarge the size and thus, make the cost rise. Project Manager also questioned the button design.After discussion, they agreed that the menu button will only work on the newer televisions." "Industrial Designer: And I just have one more idea maybe it is one of your tasks But to have a trendy remote control we can also make something like the Nokia mobile phones To change covers So if you have a trendy half with all red yellow and something And then you can put a red cover on it Marketing: Will this will this add to the cost ? Industrial Designer: then it will not be will have just one cover on the original one And then you can buy the covers Marketing: Yes but you have to m be able to change it D does it make it more difficult to design ? Industrial Designer: I think it will be a little more difficult but not too much Just like with the Nokia mobile phones Project Manager: but there are much more Nokia telephones than these ones Industrial Designer: but then we will have to to just put five covers on it and see if it works If it will not works then we will get something else Then we will not g go further with it Project Manager: but are their profits bigger than their cost ? Industrial Designer: a p a a cover made in in China it it will not be I guess so expensive I think Project Manager: but there are also design cost I do not think When you have a remote control do you change the cover ? Would you change the cover ? Industrial Designer: Maybe I wi I will not But maybe I think trendy people or like children where you can paint on it and the the children think oh this is my remote control I made a picture on it Project Manager: N but I think that too less people would change it for good profit So Industrial Designer: And the other people ? What do you think about it ? User Interface: it is a good idea But If if it I do not I am not sure if it will make profit enough to But it is it is original idea Project Manager: Yes it is but I do not think we have to do it Industrial Designer: You are the Project Manager","Industrial Designer suggested having a trendy remote control with bright color, red for instance. But Marketing argued that it might add to cost and make it more difficult to design if the cover were to be changed. Industrial Designer also suggested that young people could draw on the cover to make their own remote control more unique. But again, it was questioned by User Interface who were not sure about whether it would be profitable." "Project Manager: That is clear thank you So now the User Interface Designer User Interface: Oh That is me Come on Ah Yes well I shall give a short talk about the the technical function design I thought the the the technical function design was to for a remote control to to to have some influence on the TV set both audio and vide video in a cordless way No cords attached And well it all by pushing a button on the remote That was from my own experience and and the previous meeting I find some some interesting quotes on the web well the same idea here message to the television And and and and well basic operations like on and off and switching channels and and maybe teletext or something like that well these are two remotes and that is our our dilemma I think We just heard from the Industrial Designer how difficult it is But shall we make a basic remote control just swapping channels and volume and power button and well nothing much more Or more functions on the remote maybe more devices you can influence a radio or a v a video recorder VCR well that is our dilemma any ideas about that ? Basic or multifunctional ? Project Manager: We will got back on that later User Interface: well the that was just on my mind So I did not know what what way we would go Mm well that was my functional talk","A remote control to have some influence on the TV set, both audio and video in a cordless way. User Interface suggested more functions on the remote control so that they could influence more devices like a radio or a video recorder. But the team was not sure whether the new remote control should be basic or multifunctional and they decided to get back to that point later." Marketing: So So I am going to have a presentation about the market about what people think we did a usability labtest with a hundred persons And we looked at several things among them design d d how d did they like the use of it what frustrations they had while using remote controls well what what will be our market And we asked them if we had some new featu features If that would be a good idea or not Well our findings our users they disliked the look and feel of current remote controls they especially found found them very ugly And th they also found them hard to to learn how to use it well they also zap a lot So zapping should be very easy And fifty percent of the users only use ten percent of the buttons So a lot of unused buttons There is more findings on the buttons Which buttons find users very important and which which not ? And how much would they use them ? Well the most used button is the channel selection And we asked them how relevant they think the buttons are The power volume and channel selections are very relevant teletext is less relevant but also important not important they found the audio that is not the volume but specific the the pitch or the left or right the screen and the brightness And channel settings th and they also are not used very often Then we have a few graphs about the market here we can see what the market share is of several groups as you can see most users are between thirty six and forty five the the the younger group between sixteen and twenty five is not very big And to come back on the the swapping things I do not think I I think the younger will be most interest in it But they are not a very big group in the we asked them how would you like a s a new feature If you have an LCD on the remote control what would you think of it Now you can clearly see young users say I will that would very nice And older user think they will be scared of change I think And they will not like it And another thing how would you like to have a speech recognition on it Well here we see the same Young users think that is an interesting idea And old users not well we found out that there are two several markets at which we can aim the first are the younger the age between sixteen and forty five they are highly interested in the features as you can see here And they are more critical on their money spending the second group is the older group Aged between forty six and sixty five They are less interested in new features But they spend their money more easily Now if we look back at this graph we can see that among the first group is about sixty percent And the second group about forty percent So the the first group is bigger Well then I come to my personal preferences the first question is also we have to ask is at the which market do we aim at of course n saying we aim at the young group does not say that old people will not buy it But less of them will buy it well I What I thought even young people say it is hard to use remote control So if you make a remote control that is very easy to use that is especially aimed at this group even the young group will also be more interested And we can make special features But I think it looks nice in the first time But when use it I do not know what is good thing of speech recognition well th that is my second point less important functions should be discarded from the remote control It is about discussion we had earlier You can find most functions on a TV set So you do not have to have a lot of audio options or screen options to change the brightness And such things well the design is very important One thing I did not say I think is that a lot of users also said then I would buy a good looking remote control if there will be one But they found most remote controls very ugly So the design of our remote control is very important And it should be very zap friendly as most users use it for that That were my findings,"Marketing did a usability lab-test with a hundred people and found that users disliked the ugly look of current remote controls and the market segmentation includes different attitudes towards new functions. Users felt it hard to learn new functions and they zapped a lot. The channel switch was the most popular function while the power, volume and channel selections buttons were very relevant. The market was to be segmented to different groups and most users were between thirty-six and forty-five years old and young users had different tastes about the LCD compared to the old. The speech recognition features were welcomed by the second largest group, the young but which group they should targeted remained to be discussed. Marketing concluded that less important functions should be discarded and the device should be user friendly." "Industrial Designer: If we aim for the younger people and there will be a lot of features like LCD or the the the speech f recognising the cost will be a lot of h a lot higher I think we do not have that in our budget User Interface: And I do not I do not think twenty five Euros for a remote is really cheap or something So it is it is hard to get the younger group Project Manager: I think the LCD is cheaper than speech recognition So I think that can be an d good option LCD User Interface: Mmhmm Just the LCD ? Project Manager: So But we will come back on that",Industrial Designer argued that the LCD and speech recognition features would largely add to cost. Project Manager said that the LCD would be cheaper than speech recognition and might be a good idea. The team would come back on that later. Project Manager: Now Oh go on What d d d we go back on the decisions later Now we have a few new product requirements First teletext We have internet now so we do not need the teletext anymore So not necessary,"Project Manager decided that the remote control should only be used on television and targeted at the biggest size of group. Corporate colour and slogan must be used on the cover. They agreed that a power button, channel switches from zero to nine, volume control, mute should be contained and a small-size menu included." "Project Manager: All hooked up so now we are here at the functional design meeting hopefully this meeting I will be doing a little bit less talking than I did last time because this is when you get to show us what you have been doing individually The agenda for the meeting I put it in the sh shared documents folder I do not know if that meant that you could see it or not No Oh well I will try and do that for the next meeting as well so if you check in there there is a shared project documents folder and it should be in there User Interface: Mm wi on on a what ? Oh project project documents Project Manager: Project documents So I will put it in there Is it best if I send you an email maybe to let you know it is there ? Yep I will do that next time I will act as secretary for this meeting and just take minutes as we go through and then I will send them to you after the meeting The main the main focus of this meeting is your presentations that you have been preparing during the time so we will go through each of you one by one then we need to briefly discuss the new project requirements that were sent to us I just sent at the last minute I am sorry about that but we can see how that affects what you were you were doing and then we need to by the end of the meeting come to some kind of decision on who our target groups going to be and what the functions of the remote control that is the the main goal is to come up with those two things target group and functions of the remote control And we have got forty minutes to do that in So I would say Industrial Designer: You said targ target groups what does that mean ? Project Manager: As who it is that we are going to be trying to sell this thing to So we need to we need to have a fairly defined group that that we want to focus on and then look at the functions of the dem remote control itself So with that I think it is best if I hand over to you Does anyone have a preference for going first ? Industrial Designer: Alright I can go first Project Manager: You want to go first ? so we need to unplug my laptop and plug in yours I assume we just pull it out ? Industrial Designer: Right so f from the Project Manager: Just before you start to make it easier would you three mind emailing me your presentations ? Once we you do not have to do it now but when once you go back just so that I do not have to scribble everything down Industrial Designer: So n with with regard to the working design of this remote control I have identified a few basic components of the remote and se from the design functional design perspective w I c we can now know wha what exactly the components are and how how they work together with each other So this is the method that I will mostly be following in my in my role the identification of the components and since since I am dealing only with the technical aspects I would need feedback from the marketing person and from the user interface person we will then integrate this into the product design at a technical level and basically update and come up with a new design so it is a cyclical process so these were the basic findings from today The last three bullets have been integrated from the last minute email I just quickly jotted them down so basically the as I told you the identification of how the remote control works and what are the various parts to it and what are the different processes and how the parts communicate with each other so e the mee email said that teletext is now outdated so we need to do away with that functionality of the remote control also the remote control should be used only for television because incorporating other features makes it more comp complex And the reason why teletext is outdated because of internet and the availability of internet over television How however our our remote control would only be dealing with the the use for television in order to keep things simple also the management wants that our design should be unique it so it should incorporate colour and the slogan that our company has it as its standard so he he here is a functional overview of the remote control there is basically an energy source at the heart which feeds into the chip and the user interface The user interf interface communicates with the chip so I will basic go over to the So if if this is our energy source and this is a cell it communicates it feeds energy into the into the chip which basically finds out h how how to do everything There is a user interface here So whe when the user presses a button it feeds into the chip and the chip then generates a response and takes the response to an infrared terminal which then so the output of the chip is an infrared bit code which is then communicated to the remote site which h has an infrared receiver the there can be a bulb here or something to indicate whether the remote is on or communicating so these are the essent so a all the functionality of the remote control whatever new functions that we need to do make the chip more complicated and bigger basically so i in my personal preferences I am hoping that we can ke keep the design as simple and clear as possible This would help us to upgrade our technology at a future point of time And also if we can incorporate the latest features in our chip design so that our remote control does not become outdated soon and it is compatible with mot most televisions That is about it So anything that you would like to know or Project Manager: Do you have any i idea about costs at this point ? Industrial Designer: No I do not have any idea about what each component costs Project Manager: Because that is something to consider I guess if we are if we are using more advanced technology it might increase the price Industrial Designer: Certainly So so tha we definitely need to operate within our constraints but unfortunately I I do not have any data so I just identified the functional components for that Project Manager: That is fine Are there any more questions or shall we just skip straight to the next one and then we can discuss all of them together at the end ? User Interface: I think we need like some general discussion at the end probably Project Manager: I think that will do so do you want to User Interface: I think since since we were discussing some design issues then I I I would like to continue Project Manager: Yes shall shall we pull this up ? I think that has to come out of there I thought those last minute things they are going to hit you the worst User Interface: Oh i I hope wait Should it just Industrial Designer: I it will take some time Project Manager: It ta takes a little Oh and have you you need to then also press on yours function F eight so the blue function key at the bottom and F eight Industrial Designer: It will come up it no signal User Interface: No signal ? Why ? Oh My my computer went blank now Adjusting But I do not see anything Project Manager: There we go there we go User Interface: I do not see anything on my computer now Project Manager: Oh if you press if you press function and that again User Interface: This is the problem but Project Manager: there is there is usually three modes one where it is only here one where it is only there and one where it is both User Interface: now it is No ? No Project Manager: Should just wait for a moment adjusting User Interface: that is fine that is good let us start from the beginning So I am going to speak about technical functions design just like some some first issues that came up kay so the method I was adopting at this point it is not for the for the whole period of the all the project but it is just at th at this very moment my method was to look at other remote controls so mostly just by searching on the web and to see what functionality they used And then after having got this inspiration and having compared what I found on the web just to think about what the de what the user really needs and what what the user might desire as additional functionalities And and then just to put the main function of the remote control in in words so the findings were that the main function of the remote control is is just sending messages to the television set so this quite straightforward And w some of the main functions would be switching on switching off then the user would like to switch the channel for example just m changing to the next channel to to flip through all all of the possible channels or then mm the other possibility would be that she might just want to choose one particular channel so we would need the numbers And and also the volume is very important I als Industrial Designer: Sorry cou could you go back for a second ? switching on off channel volume that is great User Interface: Kay among the findings I found that m m most of the curr mm presently available remote controls also include other mm functionalities in their design like operating a VCR but they do not seem to be able to deal with DVD players but then there are surely there are many other functionali functions that could possibly be added to them but according to the last minute update actually we do not want to have all this complicated functions added to our design So my personal preferences would be to keep the mm the whole remote control small just like the physical size And then it must be easy to use so it must follow some conventions like whereabouts you find the on off button and maybe the colour tends to be red or something then the musthave buttons would be on off and then the channel numbers and then the one that allows us to go to the next or the previous channel and then volume has to be there But then other functionalities could be just there could be a menu button and you could change things on the screen then for example brightness and mm similar functions could be just done through the menu And the last question I had about whether we wanted to incorporate n more functionalities the answer was already no because of the last minute update So at the for the time being that is that is all Project Manager: If I mean that was the the directive that came through from management but if we had a a decent case for that we really think it is important to include video and DVD I could get back to them and see It is w it is just whether it is worth arguing about User Interface: and also it is it is other question is because there are so many different And there are so many different things that could possibly be included because besides video and DVD there are the mm video CDs and whatever so it might be problematic to to choose between all these possible things Project Manager: Are there any questions for clarification of Maarika before we go on to the next one ? Industrial Designer: So in the you user interface requirements we we have been able to identify what are the basic buttons that we do want but so so at this stage how we go about implementing those button we will not identify or I mean in we can completely do away with buttons and have some kind of a fancy user interface or something like that But is is there any any thoughts on that ? User Interface: well I think the buttons are still mm kind of the most easy for the user to use I mean what other options would you have ? A little screen or something but this would be really kind of I think a lot of learning for the user Industrial Designer: and it will make the costs User Interface: and and I mean the user just wants to get get a result quickly not to spend time in like giving several orders I do not know I think I th I would I would think the put the buttons but if if you have other mm proposals Industrial Designer: I think the co costs will also play a big role when we come to know about them So well we can probably wait until t we have more knowledge on that i if the if the costs allow we can have like an LCD display and with because we do want something fancy and fashionable as well So ? Cool Project Manager: Sure we can discuss that maybe after the next one Marketing: Cool Do you want to give me the little cable thing ? User Interface: am I going in the right direction ? Project Manager: Oh I am getting hungry User Interface: here it comes here you are Marketing: Cool Ah that is why it will not meet cool Project Manager: we need to do the function key thing so that it comes up on here Is it plugged in prop Marketing: So what I have wh where I have got my information from is a survey where the usability lab observed remote control use with a hundred subjects and then they gave them a questionnaire so it was all about you know how people feel about the look and feel of the remote control you know What is the most annoying things about remote controls and the possibility of speech recognition and LCD screens in remote control Not that they actually gave me any answers on the LCD screens so I should have taken that bit out but anyway so What they found is that people do not like how current remote controls are so you know definitely you should be looking at something quite different seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly the other twenty five percent have no fashion sense eighty percent of users would spend more to get you know a nice looking remote control current remote controls they do not match the user behaviour well as you will see on the next slide I do not know what zapping is but Project Manager: It is switching between channels sort of randomly going through Marketing: Oh right But you have that little thing that comes up at the bottom and tells you what is on fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons so that is going back to what you know we were saying earlier about you know do you need all the buttons on the remote control they just make it look ugly ? Cool so this is my little graph thing Project Manager: Ooh that is a bit difficult to see If you explain it to us it will be fine Marketing: well I can send it to all of you What it is is it is cones because I thought they would be more exciting but Project Manager: I liked the I liked the litt Marketing: ooh where is it go ? Oh yes cool I am going to stop playing with the little pointy thing so like what it shows is how much things are used relatively and what you can clearly see from that is the thing that is used most is the channel selection What you can not see is volume selection it is a little bit higher than all the others Project Manager: Mmhmm that is the next one along ? Marketing: so what the graph shows is that you know power channel selection and volume selection are important and the rest of them you know nobody really uses and so that is the the numbers along the top represent their like their importance you know so on a scale of one to ten how important is that and you know channel selection and volume selection are absolutely essential and the power well it is not quite so essential apparently although I do not understand how it could not be and everything else I think you know you can forget about having those buttons on the remote control because they are just not needed and they are not used This is the bit that the email messed up for me and that is what I was fiddling about with at the beginning of the thing cool So so this is what people find annoying about remote controls that they get lost that the you know they are not intuitive and that they are bad for repetitive strain injury I think if you are watching enough TV to get repetitive strain injury from you know watching TV then that is the least of your problems but you know it is up there that so I mean the the RSI thing would be that like when you have the computer keyboards and you keep your wrists up would be something that encourages you want something with an ergonomic t design that encourages good use of the remote control and you know not straining your wrists watching TV Yes cool Right sorry this is pink because I was copying and pasting the table and I did not have time to white it out again but that shows how people whether they would pay more for voice recognition software So you can see from that that you know younger people to the age of thirty five are quite likely to pay quite a lot more f well quite are quite likely to pay more for voice recognition software whereas as people get older they are a bit more sceptical about it and they are less willing to to try it so clearly voice recognition is something to think about but you know I d I do wonder how well that would work given that a TV you know tends to be people talking and you know how are you going to stop it from just flipping channels whilst watching TV ? Cool so these are my personal preferences So you have sleek stylish sophisticated you know so something that is you know a bit cool you know functional so it is useful but minimalist there is a there is an important thing that you know people use when you know when you are filling up your home you know a lot of people fill up their home with bits of crap basically you know and you have got all this stuff and you are just like what the hell is that who is ever going to use it ? You know so things should either be functional or beautiful or preferably both so I think we need to aim for both then a long battery life like you were talking about earlier and you know I was thinking that solar power would be quite cool because you know your remote control just sits there and you could just sit it in the sunshine and save the environment a bit and then like a locator so you know kind of like you have for a mobile phone or Industrial Designer: Some kind of a ring Project Manager: Keys and things like that Marketing: that is it you know Project Manager: Whistle and it screams at you Marketing: I know it is weird My flatmate and I were talking about this on the way into uni this morning and I was like I need to get one for everything So so maybe something where you clap and then it beeps something a kind of sound that you do not often hear on the TV you know because you do not want your remote control beeping every five minutes because you you would then deliberately lose it by throwing it out the window or something So ? Cool That is me Project Manager: I am just going to tick yes So we have got about ten fifteen minutes to discuss","Firstly, Industrial Designer presented on working design, identifying a few basic components of the remote. From the functional design perspective, Industrial Designer introduced what exactly the components were and how they worked with each other. Next, User Interface presented on technical functions design and personally suggested a small size of remote, red in colour and easy to use with must-have buttons. Then, Marketing presented on functional requirements and suggested the group aiming at both the functionality and beauty of the remote." "Industrial Designer: so i in my personal preferences I am hoping that we can ke keep the design as simple and clear as possible This would help us to upgrade our technology at a future point of time And also if we can incorporate the latest features in our chip design so that our remote control does not become outdated soon and it is compatible with mot most televisions That is about it So anything that you would like to know or Project Manager: Do you have any i idea about costs at this point ? Industrial Designer: No I do not have any idea about what each component costs Project Manager: Because that is something to consider I guess if we are if we are using more advanced technology it might increase the price Industrial Designer: Certainly So so tha we definitely need to operate within our constraints but unfortunately I I do not have any data so I just identified the functional components for that Project Manager: That is fine Are there any more questions or shall we just skip straight to the next one and then we can discuss all of them together at the end ? User Interface: I think we need like some general discussion at the end probably","Industrial Designer suggested the group could keep the design as simple and clear as possible because this would help them to upgrade their technology at a future point of time. Project Manager asked about the cost at this point, however, Industrial Designer had no idea about what each component cost. So Project Manager thought it should be considered because the price would increase if they were using more advanced technology." "Marketing: then a long battery life like you were talking about earlier and you know I was thinking that solar power would be quite cool because you know your remote control just sits there and you could just sit it in the sunshine and save the environment a bit and then like a locator so you know kind of like you have for a mobile phone or Industrial Designer: Some kind of a ring Project Manager: Keys and things like that Marketing: that is it you know Project Manager: Whistle and it screams at you Marketing: I know it is weird My flatmate and I were talking about this on the way into uni this morning and I was like I need to get one for everything So so maybe something where you clap and then it beeps something a kind of sound that you do not often hear on the TV you know because you do not want your remote control beeping every five minutes because you you would then deliberately lose it by throwing it out the window or something So ? Cool That is me","When Marketing mentioned about the long battery life, the group came up with the locator that the remote could beep when users clapped. Also, this function should be designed to not beep every five minutes so that users would not like the remote. The group mates agreed on it and thought it was an interesting and excellent idea." "Industrial Designer: Mm I think one of the very interesting things that came up in Ka Kate Cat Cats presentation was this this issue of like voice recognition being more popular with younger people So if we need to have a target group then I think as far as the m motto of our company is concerned if we want to have something sleek and you know good looking we are better off targeting a younger audience then you know people who are comparatively elderly Marketing: I mean that is the thing is that it did not say in the survey you know whether you know these are the people that will pay more for a more stylish remote control but I am assuming you know yes Industrial Designer: Right Bu but but the survey did say that f things like voice recognition are more popular with them so if you want to put in something stylish then th it will certainly be more popular with this i ye with the younger people as compared to older people Project Manager: Then again I guess the th where it was most popular was the fifteen to twenty five bracket and the I do not know how often they are buying televisions Marketing: Well that is when you go to uni is not it ? So you know Project Manager: but you do not have much money generally I would have thought it is it is more that twenty five to thirty five when people are really moving out and they have got their first job and they want their nice toys and User Interface: you share a television or something that Industrial Designer: But still if if you can go back to that slide and how popular was it ? Project Manager: O oh it is on Marketing: Oh I have unplugged it Do you want me to Industrial Designer: That is alright if you can just look it up on your computer wh people between twenty five to thirty five how popular was Marketing: Seventy six point three percent Industrial Designer: so it was sti still still quite popular amongst them So even they are seventy six percent is that high amount ? Marketing: I kn I mean I know what you are saying about the fifteen to twenty five year olds but I mean it has been proven that that people of that age group have a higher disposable income because they do not have like I mean you know if you are at university you are paying your rent Project Manager: they have got no commitments and Marketing: but you do not have a mortgage you do not have a life insurance policy you do not normally have a car Project Manager: usually not a car and all of those things Marketing: You are still learning to drive actually Industrial Designer: So you are more likely to b Marketing: so that just costs more than a car but so I mean like it is an age group to target really I think Project Manager: and if we are if we are talking twenty five Euros as a price that is not unaffordable even for young people Marketing: No I mean that is what that is like fifteen Pounds ? You know I think User Interface: this this is not unaffordable but the problem is whether people need it whether they do have a TV to use its full Marketing: I d I do not know many people without a TV We did not have a TV last year and everyone thought we were off our heads you know Project Manager: But the TVs are often kind of someone is old TV that is blah blah User Interface: Common the students The s the stu Project Manager: and be a bit strange to have a fancy rome remote User Interface: and the remote control might not it might not even function with the old TV Industrial Designer: Bu but even even in the case of twenty five to thirty five it is quite popular right ? Marketing: I d well we have we have got quite a d decent TV Industrial Designer: So mm are are are User Interface: Or w maybe we can just kind of Marketing: I think I think the fact that you know ninety one point two percent of fifteen to twenty five year olds are saying yes I would pay more for a voice recognition remote control does say quite a lot really You know so I mean that and the disposable income and I do not think it is something to ignore you know User Interface: but at the same time I think maybe we can we can just decide to to have both of these groups as our target because actually I mean they are all still re young people Marketing: Is not a massive difference you know No do totally Project Manager: if we ta if we take fifteen to thirty five but that then does imply that we should try and incorporate voice recognition Is that going to have a an implication for the technical specs ? Industrial Designer: I was having a a general outlook on m most like sophisticated features but voice recognition itself I am not very sure about because one of the p things that Cat pointed out was how do we go about implementing it ? and Marketing: You do have it in your mobile phone though do not you ? Because you have like I mean every mobile phone now has like call this person and it calls them Industrial Designer: But how frequently do we use it anyway and h ho how good is it you know voice recognition softwares are still quite Project Manager: With but with a TV remote it is going to be quite limited if we are t saying the main things people want to do is on off channel five tha that should be relatively simple Marketing: y you would maybe need a code word Do you know what I mean ? So like when you say change except that is being said quite a lot on TV so maybe like you know remote I mean how often do people say remote on TV ? Although I only watch Charmed so really I would not know but like so you would just say remote five you know remote ten remote one two nine Industrial Designer: so it seems like a feasible thing to implement for for a limited Project Manager: but maybe if you want to look into that just to just to check so if we go for the the fifteen to thirty five age group and then of course we are going to get th anyone who is older than thirty five who wants to look young and hip and trendy and has the money then they will they will still go for the same advertising Marketing: I do not think there is a lot of voice recognition remote controls User Interface: w well now the v the voice recognition if if it works wonderfully w we could possibly do away with all buttons but I think this is not really the right moment yet because people are just so used to buttons and it is it is kind of safer so we we need both Project Manager: I think we need both User Interface: so the voice recognition would be just an extra it would not really reduce the size of the remote Industrial Designer: What wh what I was thinking is that there is this separation between what the channels are on TV and how they are numbered on the remote control If we can do with away with that our product can be really popular in the sense that a person can say I want to watch ITV one instead of saying that I want to go onto channel number forty five so if if something like that can be incorporated Marketing: that would be another way to do it Project Manager: So that if that was in the the voice recognition that would be great Marketing: but then the code word would be even more important because I mean Sky advertise on every channel do not they you know so then it would be you would be watching Charmed and then the Sky advert would come on and it would change to Sky and that would be really annoying Project Manager: Mmhmm But that is definitely a possibility User Interface: but m but on the other hand remote control is not as close to you you probably might just just speak into it and and the TV would be already further away so it might not pick up the other things coming from there Marketing: Do you not think that defeats the object of having voice recognition on a remote control though ? Project Manager: So that you can yell at it Marketing: you know so you have to have the remote control It is more like if you lost it and it is down the sofa sometime you can yell at it and it will just change it you can look for it later User Interface: but then the remote control I think I mean the idea is kind of it is it is not that it is sitting there on on top of the television because then you could already yell at the television and you would not you you would not need the remote control so the remote control is still something you keep n near yourself Marketing: I suppose nearer to you but a b like if you have surround sound then Industrial Designer: Mm and it might become very difficult from a distance for the television to understand what you are saying because of the noise factor for the remote control being cl I mean it will it will mm User Interface: No but I I I was just defending the the fact why why we want to keep the remote control close to us a and not to yell at it from the distance Industrial Designer: Mm So wh another thing that can be used is that there can be a beeper button on the TV so you can go and press that button and and the remote control wherever it is it will beep so we we can probably come to know where it is Project Manager: but then if you are buying the remote separately but y you could have something but i if it was something that you could like stick onto the TV or something some like a two p if you bought it in a two part pack so one part attaches to the TV Marketing: because it is it is quite important that you do not lose the the bit to locate the remote control Project Manager: Well that is right but it solves the problem of having different noises I think we are going to have to wrap this up But if we go away with that that kind of general specification in mind that we are looking at fifteen to thirty five year olds we want it to look simple but still have the buttons so it is easy to use but only those key buttons the major buttons and then one sort of menu one and then voice recognition included as an option but that obviously needs a little bit more working out as to whether it is really feasible and some of those problems we were mentioning What we have to do now is to go back to our little places complete our questionnaire and some sort of summarisation which y you will get immediately by email Send me your presentations so that I can use them to make the minutes and then we have got a lunch break and after lunch we go back to our own little stations and have thirty minutes more work I will put the minutes in that project documents folder but I will send you an email when I do it so that you know Industrial Designer: So where exactly is this i Project Manager: It should be on your desktop so on the So I will put it I will put them there as soon as I have written them User Interface: Did you find it ? Marketing: Oh so y you want our PowerPoint presentations in there hey ? User Interface: Oh so so we will just put them i there Project Manager: Oh put them in there User Interface: we we w we will not even Project Manager: then you do not have to email them Marketing: But is everyone is called functional requirements ? Project Manager: No they are all called something slightly different Technical requirements and something something So if you put them in there we will all be able to see them and refer to them if we need to as to where we are going from here you are going to look at the components concept Industrial Designer: I guess I will find out Project Manager: You will be looking you will be looking at the user interface concept on something conceptual and you are watching trends to see how we go and surely voice recognitionll fall off the map or something that we will keep keep our options op ? Industrial Designer: Wha what was it again that I was supposed to look into ? Con components oh User Interface: Sorry but the next meeting are we going to have it right after lunch or shall we prepare our Project Manager: No we have we have after lunch we have thirty minutes to ourselves to prepare User Interface: To prepare that is good Project Manager: so that is fine w before lunch we just have to complete the questionnaire and some sort of summary so you can I guess we will see you for lunch in a sec ?","The group had a discussion about the target age group and they agreed to look at 15 to 35 year olds. Also, they decided to make it look simple, but still have those key buttons so it would be easy to use. Lastly, the group agreed to include one sort of menu button and voice recognition as an option." "Industrial Designer: That is alright if you can just look it up on your computer wh people between twenty five to thirty five how popular was Marketing: Seventy six point three percent Industrial Designer: so it was sti still still quite popular amongst them So even they are seventy six percent is that high amount ? Marketing: I kn I mean I know what you are saying about the fifteen to twenty five year olds but I mean it has been proven that that people of that age group have a higher disposable income because they do not have like I mean you know if you are at university you are paying your rent Project Manager: they have got no commitments and Marketing: but you do not have a mortgage you do not have a life insurance policy you do not normally have a car Project Manager: usually not a car and all of those things Marketing: You are still learning to drive actually Industrial Designer: So you are more likely to b Marketing: so that just costs more than a car but so I mean like it is an age group to target really I think Project Manager: and if we are if we are talking twenty five Euros as a price that is not unaffordable even for young people Marketing: No I mean that is what that is like fifteen Pounds ? You know I think User Interface: this this is not unaffordable but the problem is whether people need it whether they do have a TV to use its full Marketing: I d I do not know many people without a TV We did not have a TV last year and everyone thought we were off our heads you know Project Manager: But the TVs are often kind of someone is old TV that is blah blah User Interface: Common the students The s the stu Project Manager: and be a bit strange to have a fancy rome remote User Interface: and the remote control might not it might not even function with the old TV Industrial Designer: Bu but even even in the case of twenty five to thirty five it is quite popular right ? Marketing: I d well we have we have got quite a d decent TV Industrial Designer: So mm are are are User Interface: Or w maybe we can just kind of Marketing: I think I think the fact that you know ninety one point two percent of fifteen to twenty five year olds are saying yes I would pay more for a voice recognition remote control does say quite a lot really You know so I mean that and the disposable income and I do not think it is something to ignore you know User Interface: but at the same time I think maybe we can we can just decide to to have both of these groups as our target because actually I mean they are all still re young people Marketing: Is not a massive difference you know No do totally","Industrial Designer suggested they should also look up popularity among the 25 to 35 years old age group if they looked into a stylish design. Marketing said it was 70% popular among this age group and thought this age group didn't have much economic burden so the remote price should not be unaffordable. User Interface supplemented that their remote might not function with the old TV. Therefore, the group decided to include both 15 to 25 and 25 to 35 years old age group into consideration." "Project Manager: but that then does imply that we should try and incorporate voice recognition Is that going to have a an implication for the technical specs ? Industrial Designer: I was having a a general outlook on m most like sophisticated features but voice recognition itself I am not very sure about because one of the p things that Cat pointed out was how do we go about implementing it ? and Marketing: You do have it in your mobile phone though do not you ? Because you have like I mean every mobile phone now has like call this person and it calls them Industrial Designer: But how frequently do we use it anyway and h ho how good is it you know voice recognition softwares are still quite Project Manager: With but with a TV remote it is going to be quite limited if we are t saying the main things people want to do is on off channel five tha that should be relatively simple Marketing: y you would maybe need a code word Do you know what I mean ? So like when you say change except that is being said quite a lot on TV so maybe like you know remote I mean how often do people say remote on TV ? Although I only watch Charmed so really I would not know but like so you would just say remote five you know remote ten remote one two nine Industrial Designer: so it seems like a feasible thing to implement for for a limited Project Manager: but maybe if you want to look into that just to just to check so if we go for the the fifteen to thirty five age group and then of course we are going to get th anyone who is older than thirty five who wants to look young and hip and trendy and has the money then they will they will still go for the same advertising Marketing: I do not think there is a lot of voice recognition remote controls User Interface: w well now the v the voice recognition if if it works wonderfully w we could possibly do away with all buttons but I think this is not really the right moment yet because people are just so used to buttons and it is it is kind of safer so we we need both Project Manager: I think we need both User Interface: so the voice recognition would be just an extra it would not really reduce the size of the remote","Project Manager thought since they not only targeted 15 to 35 years old age groups, they should have an implementation for voice recognition technology. Industrial Designer mentioned that voice recognition was not yet a mature technology and most remotes went for buttons to change channels. User Interface suggested they need to have both features and group mates agreed on it." "Marketing: So basically what I suggest is that instead of deciding ourself what what could be and what should be a good remote control let us ask people who are users of remote controls how they feel about w the current remote controls what they like what they do not like and and what they do with them by the way because they are supposed to be useful Do not forget about that So we have we have conducted a a survey on on the use of remote controls and I would like to show you some of the results we found on this survey And next please so basically what we found was that there are several things that the user do not like in remote controls First of all they find it very ugly Current remote controls as you know they are the same as this one they are not nice colour not nice shape I mean they are all the same and they are not l good looking what is interesting is that in fact it seems that they were people are ready to pay for nice and look and fancy looking remote control so I think we should probably spend lots of time in and effort in that And the other thing is that the the current remote controls are not so easy to use and it it the the current facilities that they offer do not match what people really want to use their remote controls For instance we see that they zap very often so I think this is a very important functionality that it should be easy for them to to zap in one way or another And most of the buttons on current remote controls are not used so I think we should design something where some of the buttons which are those that are used should be easier to see and use than others that only a couple of people are using next please Now people are very frustrated w with their remote controls and they for instance they do not even find it it is it is often lost somewhere in the in the in your home and nobody knows where it is Maybe if we have something where we could ask the remote control please where are you ? Like something to to like t I think phones Some of the phones have some of this kind of s functionality of course phone you can always phone your phone but you can not phone your your remote control And because of the fact that there are so many buttons in these remote controls that nobody use in fact they do not even know how to use them so most of the the people say they they do not know how to they to use properly their r remote controls And they are bad for RSI but I do not remember what is RSI Project Manager: tha that is look great Marketing: So I think they are bad Mmhmm Mm nobody has any idea about that ? Well I will check with my Industrial Designer: it is electromagnetic waves or something kind of maybe effect User Interface: No I do not think so Marketing: I think it is a technical thing Industrial Designer: because infrared uses some electromagnetic technology and those waves have high Marketing: So it seems that it is a lot of people for a concept that we do not know User Interface: But twenty six percent do you know Project Manager: Or something we do not know Mmhmm Marketing: but we have to take this into account User Interface: Every fourth you know Every four some of us knows Marketing: that is for what the biggest frustration of the user and what else do I have ? Next slide ? Ah So we have listed a couple of s functions that may be used by you the user in the current available remote controls and well the tables look very nice to read but what is important is to understand that the power button is not used often because in general you use it only once per session but it is very relevant People want to have a power button Channel selection is o often used very often used and indeed very relevant Ah now I remember what is RSI it is repetitivity stress injury We have to be careful with that word but anyway I continue my presentation so channel selection is very important very often used Volume is not often used but people want to have control on volume and that makes sense of course And n then you have things which are very much less often used like the settings Audio settings screen settings even teletext and channel settings All of them they are not often used and they are s more or less relevant It seems that people find teletext teletext relevant even if I personally never use it but seems that it is average relevant at least so Project Manager: I have been told that we do not consider teletext that it is out of date now because of internet Marketing: I can tell you that in a l in a scale between one and ten relevant not relevant to relevant people scored a six on this which is not as these these two one were had I think ten I think But but if you compare with these ones I think they scored a one or two Not very relevant so if if there are good reason not to put teletext it is but just know that people find it somehow relevant That is for the main functions I think and then we can ask ourself what people do not have that may be useful For instance I think net next slide One of the thing the trend that you are probably aware of is the possibility the eventual possibility of having speech recognition in your remote control so you would not have to tap tap in your buttons but just tell your remote control or whatever you need you have what you want So we have conducted a survey about whether people would like or not to have this kind of functionality in their remote control and as we can see it really depends on the age Young people probably because it is a buzz word find it very relevant And as the age goes up the the relevance goes down So now it really depends on the kind of targeting wha who are we targeting with this remote control ? I think if we are targeting young people then it is probably something we have to consider If we are targeting you very old people this is something they really do not know why they this should be so now this is of course depends on that And I do not have any conclusion I did not have time the meeting was very tight so that is basically my findings And if you have any question ? Project Manager: Mm I think it is good You done a good review User Interface: you are a Market Expert should we aim at the young people or not ? Marketing: I think we should aim at the young people But I think they are they are those who might be more interested in a in a new device In general the the early adopters of a new device are young people less than more than User Interface: then teletext is used less Marketing: Then teletext is useless for them I think Because they they have other means of finding their information","According to a market survey, there were several things that users didn't like in current remote controls. First of all, users find them very ugly. Second, the current remote controls were not so easy to use and the facilities that they offered did not match what people really wanted. Third, people were very frustrated with their remote controls because sometimes they just couldn't find them. Therefore, the marketing suggested making their new product good-looking and equipped with less buttons and a speech recognition system." "Marketing: So we have listed a couple of s functions that may be used by you the user in the current available remote controls and well the tables look very nice to read but what is important is to understand that the power button is not used often because in general you use it only once per session but it is very relevant People want to have a power button Channel selection is o often used very often used and indeed very relevant Ah now I remember what is RSI it is repetitivity stress injury We have to be careful with that word but anyway I continue my presentation so channel selection is very important very often used Volume is not often used but people want to have control on volume and that makes sense of course And n then you have things which are very much less often used like the settings Audio settings screen settings even teletext and channel settings All of them they are not often used and they are s more or less relevant It seems that people find teletext teletext relevant even if I personally never use it but seems that it is average relevant at least so Project Manager: I have been told that we do not consider teletext that it is out of date now because of internet Marketing: I can tell you that in a l in a scale between one and ten relevant not relevant to relevant people scored a six on this which is not as these these two one were had I think ten I think But but if you compare with these ones I think they scored a one or two Not very relevant so if if there are good reason not to put teletext it is but just know that people find it somehow relevant","After conducting a survey, the marketing found power button was not used often because users used it only once per session while the channel selection was very often used which made it quite important. Volume was not often used but people wanted to have control on volume and that made sense. What much less often used was the settings, such as audio settings, screen settings, even teletext and channel settings." "Marketing: That is for the main functions I think and then we can ask ourself what people do not have that may be useful For instance I think net next slide One of the thing the trend that you are probably aware of is the possibility the eventual possibility of having speech recognition in your remote control so you would not have to tap tap in your buttons but just tell your remote control or whatever you need you have what you want So we have conducted a survey about whether people would like or not to have this kind of functionality in their remote control and as we can see it really depends on the age Young people probably because it is a buzz word find it very relevant And as the age goes up the the relevance goes down So now it really depends on the kind of targeting wha who are we targeting with this remote control ? I think if we are targeting young people then it is probably something we have to consider If we are targeting you very old people this is something they really do not know why they this should be so now this is of course depends on that And I do not have any conclusion I did not have time the meeting was very tight so that is basically my findings And if you have any question ? Project Manager: Mm I think it is good You done a good review User Interface: you are a Market Expert should we aim at the young people or not ? Marketing: I think we should aim at the young people But I think they are they are those who might be more interested in a in a new device In general the the early adopters of a new device are young people less than more than User Interface: then teletext is used less Marketing: Then teletext is useless for them I think Because they they have other means of finding their information","Because in general the early adopters of a new device were young people and teletext was used less among the young than the elderly. Plus, the young found it very relevant to have speech recognition in their remote control so that they could just tell the controller what they wanted instead of zapping." "Project Manager: So now I think it is the turn of the the I am not sure Of the technical function so Marketing: So I think it is you huh ? Industrial Designer: I have to do working design so User Interface: That is but this but number three yes Mmhmm So my name is Mark Dwight and I am responsible for User Interface Design However mm Project Manager asked me to give you some presentation about technical functions design as I am a more an artist that is going to be less technical functions but more User Interface and current intentions and everything which is linked with this So next slide please And a general method which is seems to be very useful for our task is not to forget about Occam razor We should never complicate things too much We should only make a remote control nothing more Nothing more than this just a remote control Because current remote controls they are never easy enough to use So make a click please So here is this remote control It is quite a standard one but it is not from a TV it is from a much easier device like air conditioning or something But you know we can use it for a TV easily Only buttons we need is on off volume channels and maybe some options or something else and please make a click compared to this one which one would you prefer ? I guess this Marketing: I would say the simplest one as long as there are the I find the buttons that I need every time I need a button Industrial Designer: Maybe it can be middle of like between those two User Interface: and our method is going to be provide simple simple desires into simple actions Our question of the style we should remember that our company puts fashion into electronics and we should never forget about it Be simple Be simple and you will lean on this market Market is a of remote controls you know it better it is very well it is it is not an easy field to to play you know ? So be simple For personal preferences I think that to make a babyproof remote control it got to be a titanium It is a really good style it going to be look like like this It is unbreakable and it is very universal W we will have a screen with a back light which can change colours and we can put all the options into this screen We will need only few buttons All the other things can be controlled through the screen And all these buttons should be easy to find and to click because when you watch a movie and you want to change something you always try to find a good button and click it but you should do it by touching it and finding it easily just by touch So Press I would propose this concept for design just few buttons a screen with a back light which can change colours titanium I think and what else ? I got just very few and good ideas We need power and volume And let us include two nice features into this device first power on and off can be made fully automatic When you go to the sofa take your control and point it to the TV Marketing: And when does it turn off ? User Interface: When you do not touch the control but you go out of the For for enough time Marketing: Oh so you have a sensing sensor machine that knows User Interface: It is a question to our technical design our two engineers And another nice feature that I would like to implement is volume control Suppose you set you you set up some volume and then you move out or you move to the other corner of the room and take your control with you Like you want to to change the chair or you want to move to the armchair from the sofa or something and then the volume changes Project Manager: Or you want to go to the kitchen User Interface: It is easy to do Marketing: According to your distance to and the angle maybe if you have a stereo system User Interface: According to the distance So Marketing: I am not sure about the screen wha what is the use usefulness of the screen ? is it a touch screen by the way ? User Interface: I think it can be just a menu which can be controlled with a left right up down and enter Marketing: So it gives instructions but it has to be with an back light somehow User Interface: So its main purpose in fact is a back light which makes it easier to find and each can it can respond for your voice like it can turn on the light for you just to f find it easily ? So basically that is it Project Manager: I see that you target several s application not only TV but i like we talk about universal remote control User Interface: because you got simple designs y we should put it to simple actions Let it be universal so you want to use it for your hifi system You want to change tracks and you want to adjust volume Just few actions a few actions for everything All the rest we sh we will put it into this menu on the screen Project Manager: Mm Since we were targeting a really soon date for the the the i issuing of this remote control I think we will only concentrate on TV for the moment and then maybe m make it more generalised User Interface: but it is quite universal you know We can just extend it to any device Marketing: So for instance if I want to go to directly to channel twenty five how would I do can I do that with this ? mm let us say I am on channel eight now You know these days we have hundreds of channels that is not so easy to go just next next next when you have hundreds of channels User Interface: In fact I would propose another solution Basically you use just four or five channels right ? So set up your TV set like channels that you use they are one two three and five and you will never have to go to a twenty fives channel Marketing: In fact in in one remote control that I have seen instead of doing that d you could just say these are the cha ch channel three twenty eight forty eight and sixty four are those that I want to by cycled with my next button Project Manager: it is it is the same solution I think Industrial Designer: But even we can have some LCD display like you can de you can just button the number Marketing: Go to channel twenty five One thing is that as I said in my presentation people really do like to z zap So even if they are only watching four or five channels I think they want to zap out of the one hundred channels just because this is one kind of thing they do zapping Project Manager: on zap it is only next next next next next Marketing: And it is only next User Interface: Mm We got these buttons here Next next Marketing: so but you have to User Interface: Or say this can be back Industrial Designer: But otherwise like we can put some display on numbers and then they can just press suppose two five they just press two and five Project Manager: Maybe we can make different modes for each button and you can change mode zapping mode or Industrial Designer: but since we are focusing only on TV remote controls so we can have more functions for TV if you want to go for a universal then we ought to limit for functions for each of our devices User Interface: Could we carry out some research if we w really need this like how many people really need to go to channel number twenty five and then to sixty four ? Marketing: Well I could could have a look at that maybe I will check in my department if there is someone specialist in that Although I do not know User Interface: Alright ? Thanks for your attention Project Manager: you are finish ? So now the technical aspects of this new device Mm","The user interface designer stressed that they should design nothing but a remote control because their principle was to make users' simple desires into simple actions. Therefore, the proposed concept for the design included just a few buttons, a screen with a back light which can change colours and titanium, which was accepted by the group." "User Interface: For personal preferences I think that to make a babyproof remote control it got to be a titanium It is a really good style it going to be look like like this It is unbreakable and it is very universal W we will have a screen with a back light which can change colours and we can put all the options into this screen We will need only few buttons All the other things can be controlled through the screen And all these buttons should be easy to find and to click because when you watch a movie and you want to change something you always try to find a good button and click it but you should do it by touching it and finding it easily just by touch So Press I would propose this concept for design just few buttons a screen with a back light which can change colours titanium I think and what else ? I got just very few and good ideas We need power and volume And let us include two nice features into this device first power on and off can be made fully automatic When you go to the sofa take your control and point it to the TV Marketing: And when does it turn off ? User Interface: When you do not touch the control but you go out of the For for enough time Marketing: Oh so you have a sensing sensor machine that knows User Interface: It is a question to our technical design our two engineers And another nice feature that I would like to implement is volume control Suppose you set you you set up some volume and then you move out or you move to the other corner of the room and take your control with you Like you want to to change the chair or you want to move to the armchair from the sofa or something and then the volume changes Project Manager: Or you want to go to the kitchen User Interface: It is easy to do Marketing: According to your distance to and the angle maybe if you have a stereo system User Interface: According to the distance So Marketing: I am not sure about the screen wha what is the use usefulness of the screen ? is it a touch screen by the way ? User Interface: I think it can be just a menu which can be controlled with a left right up down and enter Marketing: So it gives instructions but it has to be with an back light somehow User Interface: So its main purpose in fact is a back light which makes it easier to find and each can it can respond for your voice like it can turn on the light for you just to f find it easily ? So basically that is it","The user interface designer recommended to have a screen with a backlight which could change colours and to put all the options into this screen so that few buttons were needed and users would find it easy to use. As for the material, titanium was preferred because it was unbreakable and baby-proof. The user interface designer also suggested making the power and volume control fully automatic." "Marketing: So for instance if I want to go to directly to channel twenty five how would I do can I do that with this ? mm let us say I am on channel eight now You know these days we have hundreds of channels that is not so easy to go just next next next when you have hundreds of channels User Interface: In fact I would propose another solution Basically you use just four or five channels right ? So set up your TV set like channels that you use they are one two three and five and you will never have to go to a twenty fives channel Marketing: In fact in in one remote control that I have seen instead of doing that d you could just say these are the cha ch channel three twenty eight forty eight and sixty four are those that I want to by cycled with my next button Project Manager: it is it is the same solution I think Industrial Designer: But even we can have some LCD display like you can de you can just button the number Marketing: Go to channel twenty five One thing is that as I said in my presentation people really do like to z zap So even if they are only watching four or five channels I think they want to zap out of the one hundred channels just because this is one kind of thing they do zapping Project Manager: on zap it is only next next next next next Marketing: And it is only next User Interface: Mm We got these buttons here Next next Marketing: so but you have to User Interface: Or say this can be back Industrial Designer: But otherwise like we can put some display on numbers and then they can just press suppose two five they just press two and five Project Manager: Maybe we can make different modes for each button and you can change mode zapping mode or Industrial Designer: but since we are focusing only on TV remote controls so we can have more functions for TV if you want to go for a universal then we ought to limit for functions for each of our devices User Interface: Could we carry out some research if we w really need this like how many people really need to go to channel number twenty five and then to sixty four ? Marketing: Well I could could have a look at that maybe I will check in my department if there is someone specialist in that Although I do not know User Interface: Alright ? Thanks for your attention Project Manager: you are finish ? So now the technical aspects of this new device Mm","The marketing thought it not easy to keep pressing 'next' to get to the channel people wanted. Then the user interface designer offered a solution that users could set up the channels that they often watched as one, two, and three so that they would never have to go through dozens of channels. However, in the Marketing's previous presentation, some people did love zapping, so the user interface designer suggested carrying out some research to find out how many people really needed to skip from one channel to another." "Industrial Designer: as you know I am mister Ramaro I am an expert in industrial design of all electronic devices and I previously devised many like digital calculators and electronic calculators So now I will briefly describe the working design of our remote control Well as you know the basic function of remote control is sending some message to the the device like TV or VCR or DVD player etcetera So we will have a p portable device which will send message to the the main device like TV So we need to have some energy source to do what to do the functions what we want on this portable device And usually this so to do these functions we need an interface which basically some kind of pressing buttons or keys or like moving jack or something like that And then these messages these key buttons can be transferred into some kind of message and then it will process by the chip and then it will generate some information to the main device It is generally in the form of infrared or some kind of s sensor information Then we will have the main control in the main device to do the particular action what we want So basically we need since we are focusing on our interface device remote control mainly the energy source like the battery and then we have user interface like the keypad and you know buttons we want and then we have some chip it is mainly digital signal processing chip because since we are I am one doing mostly digital devices we ought to have some kind of processor which take care of all these functions and put it in some digital format And then we will have the infrared LED source which sends the information to the main device Then we will have switch in our main device to do particular operations and we ought to do different codes for different TVs so some TVs will have different encryption codes for doing s s channel changing and these things Project Manager: To make it quite an universal device Industrial Designer: because the people do not use one particular brand so or at least we have more more than five brands which are really good So we need to check their specifications and do their encryption that is passing information to the TV device So we need to have particular encryption codes Then components so we have the main energy source and then we will have some buttons and then we will have infrared source and then we have some inside some chip in in the device since I do not have much time so I will input the connections to all this components And since I also want to know feedback from our Marketing Expert and User Interface so if you want to add some more components we can incorporate them Project Manager: Mmhmm And from from the discussion we had do you can you make it on the whiteboard or mm Industrial Designer: I am sure because since our User Interface speech recognition and also Marketing Expert for the speech recognition is really handy we can have another like s simple speech recogniser on our DSB chip Since we have some kind of energy this is our this normal battery so this battery once you s switch on it will take power and we can have some speech recognition and in our g generally small digital signal processing chip so that and we will put the small simple speech recogniser and we can also train the speech recogniser for particular user so you just so that we just use simple recog Marketing: But very very good to sell Industrial Designer: No even in you can find even simple mobile device like any mobile brand you can have these voice dialers or these things Marketing: Think of a all these young people who would love to say that this remote control only works for them and ha ha you can not use my remote control because it is targeted to me Whatever Project Manager: And what about the price of this component ? Industrial Designer: So maybe we can make it in five Euros and even less than that because we want to have millions and in bulk so we can make really simp and we want to make really simple device because we have only very few words like like power switch on or some like then we will have something like this we will have volume and then we will have s particular channel so users can listen Marketing: The user will just be able to say please can you pump up the vo pump up the volume or or it will be something like volume up down Industrial Designer: Ye No a user can use any kind of sender but they should have this prompt volume and then volume and decrease or increase so we try to only recognise those words and and because we can not really say user to say same wording then it become more mechanical and And then we can have channel they can say I want eight because we do not know like users have different programmes I mean they do not really follow same channels strict so we just want channel number we do not want like BBC or CNN or something else Marketing: Of course it has to be Industrial Designer: because it will be complicated so we will have only these three main basic anyway volume is not really speech recognition problem it is it it will be take care of our main mm User Interface: No you know it is a conceptual question because now I see th this the picture in front of my eyes like a user taking his remote control and shouting into it volume up volume up Marketing: But then I think you you User Interface: and and he is coming you know he is really annoyed with this down up down Marketing: First of all I I think this is not functionality that it is going to be instead of using the buttons Project Manager: No in no not only speech Marketing: It is on top of using the button Project Manager: I it is an option User Interface: for this budget like twelve Euros Marketing: Well I do not know Industrial Designer: actually we we can have one switch to like switch on on and off this processor and This really suppose like here we have our main chip which controls power volume and this part and this DSPs Again this to have some interaction like suppose people use DSP then it particularly sends some information to the chip like in some form like volume and like this key So it may not be like very expensive because since we are only focusing on TV remote control so and we have only few things here User Interface: Did you consider the r gest gesture recognition ? Like if I want to put volume up I like do mm I take my remote control do like something like Industrial Designer: this point we did not consider because it is it is very expensive because v our target is only like twelve point five Euros Project Manager: And well what about the idea of automatic on off on the button Industrial Designer: even automatic on off is also a bit problematic because it different criteria for different people like so suppose people are really they just they do not touch the remote and mm y you do not know how much time you need to switch on or switch off Marketing: Sh should we target a a user personalised remote control ? So in in a given room there might be more than one remote control We would have each one and with our own personal settings Industrial Designer: Yay that can be possible especially for power settings so user can say suppose they are watching a tennis match or something then they can say after one hour I Project Manager: Would not that make arguments ? Marketing: That is no problem we will sell more Project Manager: And we can increase this the strength User Interface: We got a really good Market Expert Project Manager: y you can buy one with User Interface: Let us send more let us sell more Project Manager: Mmhmm You have mm something else to say ? Industrial Designer: Thank you Yep Thank you Project Manager: mm I think we are just on time mm mm So we are now going to l have the lunch break Then we will work again for thirty minutes individual work and we will meet again for the next meeting and in this one want to to be more focused on the individual actions the on the components so you will focus on the component concept of course the UID Mark will be focused on the user interface concept and our m Market Expert Sammy Benjo on the trend watching So of course like before specific instruction will be sent to you by your personal personal coach Well I think that is all And we have maybe we have to we say only for TV not teletext ? I think automatic on off control it is not possible Industrial Designer: it is in current price Project Manager: maybe in the next step if we make it work Industrial Designer: But speech recogniser can be possible Project Manager: implemented O we can think about that And do you see something else ? User Interface: should it be equipped with the with speakers ? Marketing: Speakers in the remote cont User Interface: Like you want to find it you shout and it answers is I am here ? Or Project Manager: Or maybe you want to phone him Marketing: But that is ex that is expensive Industrial Designer: especially the power it really consumes because it should be all the time on and Marketing: Well I I heard of devices where you just whistle them and and they because of the the frequency they they just answer to that User Interface: I can not whistle No no I can not Marketing: You can not whistle Uhhuh Or a clap You can clap Can you ? Project Manager: Clap clap clap it is a good I I think it is universal What about people without hand ? Industrial Designer: I think it is good Marketing: With only one hand ? These are not our target people Industrial Designer: But it is a good feature I guess we need to think about more how to incorporate it User Interface: Just do not interfere with other devices like because like all these people do that their lights are turning on with clapping Marketing: Oh that is e that already exists User Interface: I got it at my home like Project Manager: Mmhmm so let us to think s so that I think that could be in the component concept let us go to lunch Industrial Designer: Thank you thank you very much","The industrial designer described the product as a portable device with some energy source, an interface which included some pressing buttons and keys, a processor, some infrared source which could send the information to the main device, and different encryption codes for different TVs. Since the Marketing and the user interface designer mentioned speech recognition, the industrial designer also took that into account. All these components would cost 5 Euros or even less than that. As for gesture recognition and automatic power control, the group gave them up due to price issues. At the end of the meeting, the group also talked about how to enable the users to find the controller." "Industrial Designer: I am sure because since our User Interface speech recognition and also Marketing Expert for the speech recognition is really handy we can have another like s simple speech recogniser on our DSB chip Since we have some kind of energy this is our this normal battery so this battery once you s switch on it will take power and we can have some speech recognition and in our g generally small digital signal processing chip so that and we will put the small simple speech recogniser and we can also train the speech recogniser for particular user so you just so that we just use simple recog Marketing: But very very good to sell Industrial Designer: No even in you can find even simple mobile device like any mobile brand you can have these voice dialers or these things Marketing: Think of a all these young people who would love to say that this remote control only works for them and ha ha you can not use my remote control because it is targeted to me Whatever","Since the marketing and the user interface designer mentioned speech recognition in their previous presentations, the industrial designer suggested putting a simple speech recogniser on the digital signal processing chip and training the speech recogniser for particular users. However, the user interface designer concerned that it would be too complex. Then the industrial designer argued that even some simple mobile devices could have these voice dialers so it wouldn't be so sophisticated, and the marketing also said the product would be good to sell with the speech recogniser." "Project Manager: And well what about the idea of automatic on off on the button Industrial Designer: even automatic on off is also a bit problematic because it different criteria for different people like so suppose people are really they just they do not touch the remote and mm y you do not know how much time you need to switch on or switch off Marketing: Sh should we target a a user personalised remote control ? So in in a given room there might be more than one remote control We would have each one and with our own personal settings Industrial Designer: Yay that can be possible especially for power settings so user can say suppose they are watching a tennis match or something then they can say after one hour I Project Manager: Would not that make arguments ? Marketing: That is no problem we will sell more Project Manager: And we can increase this the strength User Interface: We got a really good Market Expert",The industrial designer thought the automatic power control would be a bit problematic because there were different criteria for different people. Then the marketing proposed that they should design a personalized product so that the users could have their own settings. The proposal was accepted by the industrial designer but later the idea of automatic power control was still abandoned because of price issues. "Professor C: Good OK so let s get started Nancy said she s coming and that means she will be My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week s adventures to start So everybody knows there were these guys f from Heidelber actually from DFKI part of the German SmartKom project who were here for the week and I think got a lot done Grad E: I think so too The we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system and it will go all the way through and then say something like `` Roman numeral one am Smarticus `` It actually says `` Roemisch einz am Smarticus `` which means it s just using a German sythesis module for English sentences Professor C: It does not know `` I `` Grad D: `` I am Sm I am Smarticus `` is what it s saying Grad E: The sythesis is just a question of hopefully it s just a question of exchanging a couple of files once we have them And it s not going to be a problem because we decided to stick to the so called concept to speech approach So I m I m I m going backwards now so `` synthesis `` is where you sort of make this make these sounds and `` concept to speech `` is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said and the whole syntactic structure so it can pronounce things better presumably Then just with text to speech And Johno learned how to write XML tags and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some some sentences No right ? Grad D: So Bu i The way the the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know or what it wants to tell the person to a er in XML and there s a conversion system for different to go from XML to something else And th so the knowledge base for the system that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is in a LISP like the knowledge base is in a LISP like form And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog So you have a basically a goal and it you know says `` OK well I m going to try to do the Greet the person goal so it just starts it binds some variables and it just decides to you know do some subscold Basically it just means `` build the tree ``","The translation of SmartKom to english is in its final stages. The variety of linguistic conventions seem to develop around an ego/allo-centric and a proximal/distal paradigm. From an engineering perspective, the belief-net for the AVE task should be completed within a few weeks. Since the whole system is going to be re-designed, there are major decisions to be taken regarding the parser and the ontology, as well as what can be re-used from past EML projects. In parallel, another team is working on formalisation and notation. Finally, more ideas are expected to come from students and their research." "Professor C: Good OK so let s get started Nancy said she s coming and that means she will be My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week s adventures to start So everybody knows there were these guys f from Heidelber actually from DFKI part of the German SmartKom project who were here for the week and I think got a lot done Grad E: I think so too The we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system and it will go all the way through and then say something like `` Roman numeral one am Smarticus `` It actually says `` Roemisch einz am Smarticus `` which means it s just using a German sythesis module for English sentences Professor C: It does not know `` I ``","The translation of SmartKom to english is in its final stages. The synthesis module will be the last one to do, after the english syntax trees are completed. The system is still buggy and unstable, but it will soon be ready for a demonstration." "Professor C: I mean that s the kind of thing That s the level at which you know we can just li invite everybody and say `` this is a project that we ve been working on and here s a demo version of it `` and stuff like that Grad E: OK Well d we we do want to have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you are Professor C: But any so that e e It s clear then I think Actually roughly starting let s say nex next meeting cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report But starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where I mean there are a lot of issues what s the ontology look like you know what do the constructions look like what s the execution engine look like mmm lots of things But more focused on an idealized version than just getting the demo out Now before we do that let s get back in Oh ! But it s still I think useful for you to understand the demo version enough so that you can can see what what it is that that it might eventually get retro fitted into or something",The final english SmartKom demo will be presented to the whole institute once the system is de-bugged and stabilised. "Grad E: OK Well d we we do want to have all the bugs out b where you have to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you are Professor C: But any so that e e It s clear then I think Actually roughly starting let s say nex next meeting cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report But starting next meeting I think we want to flip into this mode where I mean there are a lot of issues what s the ontology look like you know what do the constructions look like what s the execution engine look like mmm lots of things But more focused on an idealized version than just getting the demo out Now before we do that let s get back in Oh ! But it s still I think useful for you to understand the demo version enough so that you can can see what what it is that that it might eventually get retro fitted into or something And Johno s already done that looked at the dem the looked at the SmartKom stuff Grad D: Wa To some de what what part of th the SmartKom stuff ? Professor C: Well the parser and that stuff OK Anyway So the trip the report on these the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week Grad E: Well it was just amazing to to see how how instable the whole thing is","After the demo, the focus of research can switch towards purely scientific goals, including issues on ontology, deep semantic constructions, execution engines etc. Moreover, a new system will be designed for the project and at least some parts of it should be built." "Industrial Designer: Yep So we are to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we will use for energy and the material and interface For energy there are maybe two or three possibilities First one we can use simple battery or we can use traditional solar cells or mm and the material we can have plastic rubber which is good for this RSA and then titanium which can be which have very good look an and then interface we are to use push buttons or liquid crystal d LCD display And we can use some moving kind of thing So as we discussed before we need to we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control So this can be simple kind of programmable chip and which can use microphone sensors And we also want to look at our remote control so Still we are looking for possible technical specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range like we are to in our twelve Euros or around that So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house So we discussed an Excuse me So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic to have enough energy with the solar cells and so we would like to just use simple battery And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or and well the problem is with this design we found that we can not use doublecurved shapes Marketing: What is a doublecurved shape ? Industrial Designer: Like you can have two curves it is I think in manufacturing I guess it is problematic So we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it is really lesser re really less expensive compared to LCD which are which needs advanced chip technology and it is more expensive since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition we want to reduce cost Project Manager: I want to know why it b just sorry but for the point before why not the rubber if it is something that it seems to be light Industrial Designer: And also like in if you put a it is be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things Project Manager: You m titanium it is more User Interface: W we can use something like you know the whole bodys titanium but there are some rubber or I do not know some rubber parts like to make it feel better and to you know Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently these you can with the rubber in four directions and But full assembly We will use mainly for titanium and also it is bit difficult to do all the shapes we we would like to use push buttons instead of LCDs and so we want to mo I mean we are we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money Project Manager: s so simple button and speech recognition for the more complicated Industrial Designer: Y we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology User Interface: mm can we still include the L LSD display ? Marketing: Seems not it is either LCD or pushbutton User Interface: it is not going to be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus Industrial Designer: maybe maybe we can see depending on how we will come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and User Interface: so let us try it let us t Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or or something so we want to reduce the cost on display Marketing: The display would only be display and not touch sensitive you mean User Interface: it is it is not going to be a touch pad just a display for giving you information Industrial Designer: Ok that can we we can consider because like it will not take much money I guess You have any further questions or ? Marketing: I guess no So the batteries are going to be very light Industrial Designer: we are to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries for really light batteries and with good price Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just the finding it basically instead of clapping why not just be ask Industrial Designer: that is then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it m maybe at least five six people want to use it so so how to how to define our re speech recognition whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent If we are going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology if if everybody in the house n to locate then we are to go for some speaker independent technology or something Project Manager: So let us now go to the you do not have more question ? Marketing: Puts less of constraint on what we can do it is always like that We have dreams and the in the end we find out that it is not feasible Industrial Designer: Oh We have some limitations User Interface: But still LSDs already quite nice Marketing: and it is quite nice as well User Interface: I am an artist sorry I hope that is not too much","The industrial designer provided several options respectively for energy, material and interface. Among these options, the industrial designer preferred traditional battery, titanium and simple push buttons so that they would have enough money for speech recognition. After that, the user interface designer proposed an LCD display only for output, which might be taken into account. The group also talked about how to enable the users to find their controllers." "Industrial Designer: So we discussed an Excuse me So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic to have enough energy with the solar cells and so we would like to just use simple battery And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or and well the problem is with this design we found that we can not use doublecurved shapes Marketing: What is a doublecurved shape ? Industrial Designer: Like you can have two curves it is I think in manufacturing I guess it is problematic So we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it is really lesser re really less expensive compared to LCD which are which needs advanced chip technology and it is more expensive since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition we want to reduce cost Project Manager: I want to know why it b just sorry but for the point before why not the rubber if it is something that it seems to be light Industrial Designer: And also like in if you put a it is be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things Project Manager: You m titanium it is more User Interface: W we can use something like you know the whole bodys titanium but there are some rubber or I do not know some rubber parts like to make it feel better and to you know Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently these you can with the rubber in four directions and But full assembly We will use mainly for titanium and also it is bit difficult to do all the shapes we we would like to use push buttons instead of LCDs and so we want to mo I mean we are we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money Project Manager: s so simple button and speech recognition for the more complicated Industrial Designer: Y we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology","The industrial designer recommended batteries instead of solar cells because it would be problematic if solar cells didn't have enough energy. Titanium was proposed rather than rubber as the latter would make it difficult to do the moulding of buttons. Besides, the industrial designer wanted a simple push button because it only needed a simple chip and was less expensive than LCD." "User Interface: mm can we still include the L LSD display ? Marketing: Seems not it is either LCD or pushbutton User Interface: it is not going to be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus Industrial Designer: maybe maybe we can see depending on how we will come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and User Interface: so let us try it let us t Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or or something so we want to reduce the cost on display Marketing: The display would only be display and not touch sensitive you mean User Interface: it is it is not going to be a touch pad just a display for giving you information Industrial Designer: Ok that can we we can consider because like it will not take much money I guess","Although the industrial designer regarded LCD as costly, the user interface designer proposed adding an LCD as a kind of output that only displayed some information or menu and was not touch sensitive, which might reduce the cost." "Project Manager: Now let us talk about interface User Interface: mm mm have a look at this so the concept of the interface Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface but for possible instruction or users manual and all the complex things that come together with your TV and remote controls So let us start with this We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons and we got explanation for every button and you can use your time and it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and the LCD is going to be somewhere here and go back button I do not know really where it is maybe one of this buttons and power on and off mm I I do not remember so it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no ? I can see nothing So that is our concept It is called the millennium remote control Industrial Designer: maybe you can use in the end and Marketing: does not make sense This is very ugly User Interface: I thought you like it Ah just press the button please we will not use this We will not use this But instead of this I will devise That is our concept And it is got just few buttons quite low looking and all this stuff we already we already discussed And what will people say ? They will say it is perfect Or what will say ? they will say it is splendid And e everyone will say I will buy it Marketing: Do you think it can come in several colours ? User Interface: And everyone is going to be satisfied I would make a backlight of the LCD screen with different colours Marketing: the case would only be in that aluminium titanium stuff Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours no ? Marketing: well they like something which is User Interface: so let us remember there is a Nokia phone which changeable panels Do you like it ? Marketing: so that would be the option I do not know I do not have a Nokia phone but I do not use that but again I might User Interface: That is why you do not have it That is why Industrial Designer: But it would be expensive no ? If you use colour LCD instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler Maybe we can just if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this the shapes and they can have different assembly So users have different I mean they have their own interests colour interests and so So we can just if they want they can just pay another two Euro Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we if you want o more colours on LCD Industrial Designer: yes If they want like so that we can Marketing: Kind of upgradable remote control Industrial Designer: Just they will get few more things and few more colours User Interface: what there is one more decisi one more solution in fact because there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around like what colour is around and depending on the temperature We can make it in fact Project Manager: but that is maybe mo too much expensive But it can be in maybe in an a gradable version Marketing: Because I think there are two kinds of people Those for which the remote control is is to be something useful I am going to talk about this later but and those for which is something that that that is specific to them so it it is like a signature My remote control is pink Nobody else than me has a pink remote control And that makes me special Project Manager: and you think that we do not have to make to make them pay more because of o or this is Marketing: I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that Those who wanted to have it pink Project Manager: so i it is not a s base service Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few no ? So like we can those Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends Although similar but have something just slightly better Pink Project Manager: maybe that is if that it is a selling point maybe it has to be the base User Interface: But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time Project Manager: And you will be different User Interface: And it makes you different Marketing: You always have your remote Project Manager: in the train hello no Want to change my neighbour User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ? Marketing: Oh you do not ? You do not have your remo Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod It is a kind of remote control it is white and it is so white that you see it from any anywhere It has this distinctive look and feel and look which people seems to like just because it is a colour that we do not usually see in a remote control White User Interface: Uhhuh uhhuh Could we integrate something into our remote control something like light ? That they can use it in darkness like Hand light Marketing: Mm glow in the dark Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something so that like at least User Interface: let us go on maybe with the presentation And the remote controls going to be smart but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ? that is a question to you and to mm to Marketing: Well so I heard that it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done so that is the smartness of the thing Currently we do not have guns with speech recognition or beer cans with speech recognition but we may have remote controls with speech recognition Project Manager: Mm that is a nice world User Interface: So just just just just think about it Marketing: Do not touch the remote But Are are you saying here that the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father does not want User Interface: I just want to say it should be real smart Marketing: Like with some Maybe fingerprint recognition or User Interface: Voice recognition is quite tough I say do not use it and the control just looks Because I ordered jus To l to l lock it Industrial Designer: that mm that could be feasible I guess like So since we have we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition so we can use Marketing: So it could be smart in that way But for instance th I I am thinking about the other particularity that the the remote control could have S since it it knows who is using it it might also record the kind of channels you are you more often using and levels of volumes that you are more often things like that and provide you ways of using them I do not know somehow I do not know that might be expensive that might also be a good sales pitch again The remote that knows you","The user interface designer presented a good-looking design with few buttons. As for the colour, the user interface designer suggested making a backlight of the LCD screen with different colours, but this was denied due to the high cost. Then the industrial designer recommended changing the colour of the assembly at an extra charge to meet special needs. Light and infrared were also taken into consideration to make the controller glow in the dark. In order to make a smart controller, the group mentioned speech recognition and user identification." "Marketing: Because I think there are two kinds of people Those for which the remote control is is to be something useful I am going to talk about this later but and those for which is something that that that is specific to them so it it is like a signature My remote control is pink Nobody else than me has a pink remote control And that makes me special Project Manager: and you think that we do not have to make to make them pay more because of o or this is Marketing: I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that Those who wanted to have it pink Project Manager: so i it is not a s base service Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few no ? So like we can those Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends Although similar but have something just slightly better Pink Project Manager: maybe that is if that it is a selling point maybe it has to be the base","Because the marketing believed that young people wanted to be different from their friends and would be ready to pay more for things that were specific to them and made them special. Thus, providing some upgradeable remote controls with various colours for these customers would be a selling point." "Marketing: But Are are you saying here that the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father does not want User Interface: I just want to say it should be real smart Marketing: Like with some Maybe fingerprint recognition or User Interface: Voice recognition is quite tough I say do not use it and the control just looks Because I ordered jus To l to l lock it Industrial Designer: that mm that could be feasible I guess like So since we have we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition so we can use Marketing: So it could be smart in that way But for instance th I I am thinking about the other particularity that the the remote control could have S since it it knows who is using it it might also record the kind of channels you are you more often using and levels of volumes that you are more often things like that and provide you ways of using them I do not know somehow I do not know that might be expensive that might also be a good sales pitch again The remote that knows you","The marketing expert came up with the idea that the remote control could identify the user. Since it knows who was using it, it might record the kind of channels that you often watched and the level of volumes you liked. In other words, it would provide your way of using it. This would be a good sales pitch though it might be expensive." "Marketing: Trend No yes so I am going to talk about trends and I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control So next slide please So first maybe just a small recap on how how do we watch trends so it is not so simple you might think that it is easy but it is not so simple Anyway these days the best source of information is the web as you know so have to to go often on the web and look at what the others are doing and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people have with them always like a phone We can we can use the phone as a as a good example of where to in be inspired Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also have also to be inspired because in fact they are not only watching the trends they are inventing it they are creating the trend I hope I am going to try to help you on that This is more risky because you are not following the trend you try to invent it which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you do not and you are out of business So anyway next slide please to be to be quick there is a lot of words here but basically there are in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very pay much attention to The first one which seems to be the most important one is that it has to be fancy it has to have a fancy look and feel And interestingly this is the very most important thing It has to be fancy Strangely enough it is more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that is the second thing it has to be it has to be technologically i innovative it has to be new with some of new technology inside and and this is also more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control So as you see it first have to be very nice s something that people are proud of that i they can be id identified with and and then something that contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends huh mine has this and not yours And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it is not so important that it is useful as a remote control and now in a more general broad way of seeing th the thing If we look back and not look at only remote controls I think it is important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan well it seems that this year things should have a fruit and vegetable way of of look or feel And I think of course i it applies to everything That is the thing with trends It it can travel f from clothe to furniture same idea Fruit and vegetable Think fruit and vegetable And if we co we compare to last year now it has to be spongy this so so I think i When we were talking about rubber I think the rubber aspect might be important because it is what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess Project Manager: S So maybe titanium it is not a good idea Industrial Designer: We need to think about mm mm Marketing: Think more of something in the colours of like fruit and vegetables and spongy as a even in the shape it has to be more round and more look natural somehow I mean And not those futuristic remote control with angles and and titanium like So that is what people seem to i I know it is quite far from what you thought but that is that is fashion and that is all I have to say Project Manager: Mm you have questions ? Industrial Designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it is This you you so did you Marketing: we have people listening to the trends everywhere in the world of course Industrial Designer: Where ? Oh Oh mmhmm Marketing: as you know our company is quite big and so I am just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask their friends Industrial Designer: It is not from mm Mmhmm It is more general trend it is not particular to the remote control Marketing: No it is not it is not this this is very general But it seems that trends travel across things Industrial Designer: but some materials n they are to be they are to be something like solid like they can not be really spongy Marketing: We have to I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables Industrial Designer: sponge at least that is Marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside so of course Industrial Designer: looking fruit These things can be easily incorporated We can have t colours or this shape Marketing: I think in the colours and in the the kind of material If if it is something like rubber made or I think it it is also going to be good","The marketing put forward three noteworthy aspects in trends. First and foremost, people loved fancy things that they could be identified with. The second point was that as a remote control it had to be technologically innovative. Thirdly, being easy to use was also necessary. From a broader perspective, fruit and vegetables were in fashion this year and being spongy was also popular. Thus, contrary to the industrial designer, the marketing thought rubber was more feasible in terms of sponginess. The group agreed that the product should resemble fruit and vegetable in shape and colour but the specific design was not decided." Marketing: and now in a more general broad way of seeing th the thing If we look back and not look at only remote controls I think it is important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan well it seems that this year things should have a fruit and vegetable way of of look or feel And I think of course i it applies to everything That is the thing with trends It it can travel f from clothe to furniture same idea,"The marketing found that trends were quite the same in many areas. Take this year's fruit and vegetable as an example, it applies to everything from clothing to furniture, which meant it was quite general. It might be surprising that people liked products that looked natural and round rather than some futuristic remote control with angles and titanium." "Industrial Designer: so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables we want to follow general trend Project Manager: do we agree on that ? We have to Marketing: No we do not have to User Interface: So we have to for Marketing: but seems it is the trend Again as I said we can also try to make it to create the trend User Interface: so are we confident enough on creating trends ? Marketing: So there is no Well that is you t can try to convince us User Interface: Well we can make it smell like fruit Marketing: that is a good idea Project Manager: that is a good idea So titanium smell like fruit Industrial Designer: So what about location and these things people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like They more want these fancy features Marketing: i it is again in this what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it is a good sell for us It is fancy Whether it is useful or not does not seem to be very important Project Manager: I I agree with this Now we have to decide on what kind of fanciness Do we take titanium smelling like fruit or do we make spongy fruitylike Industrial Designer: we will try to explore these two options Marketing: Maybe you could explore the two option User Interface: Mmhmm mmhmm Could we make a titanium shape ? I mean fruitshaped Industrial Designer: at least like we can make banana or Project Manager: Do not you say that you can not do double shape curved shape Industrial Designer: that is a we are to look for and and s we are to see the whether rubber is expensive User Interface: In fact I just agreed to make to make the like titanium panels on a whole rubber body Well w we will see Project Manager: you explore now that you are going to work together these these two Industrial Designer: Maybe we can have two different assembly also like one spongy and one kind of titanium we have only the plastic or the the chippy fibre chips or User Interface: We will see We will see Project Manager: Mm I do not think w I think we have to choose If we choose titanium or if we choose spongy but it can not be both User Interface: We will see I I really do not like this modelling clay because you know it makes some for for Project Manager: Ah you can pretend that it is titanium Marketing: You can paint it afterward No problem We have a very large department of paint Project Manager: do do not worry you you you speak with mm mm","To follow the trend of fruit and vegetable, there were two options: something in titanium and smelling like fruit, or something spongy and fruity-like. The industrial designer would explore these two choices and he also suggested having two different assemblies, but the project manager said they couldn't have both. The project manager also mentioned another solution - painting the controller to pretend that it was titanium. The group didn't make a final decision." "Project Manager: so maybe if we go on to evaluation cri criteria and then we will there I suspect we are going to have a couple of minor finance issues but we will se I am sure we can get around them somehow We will just send all of our manufacturing to some nice poor country and cut some of the prices that way Marketing: cool So what we are going to do is prefer prepare the evaluation of the new design so we are going to be using a seven point scale so one is you know yes it totally meets with that requirement and seven is no it really does not we need to go back and start again you know Basically what I did was I went through all the like user requirements and things that we have done and we have worked on and like made a list of them you know so that we can evaluate each one and like so it was about going back to the start and saying oh we did manage to do that or oh no we really forgot about that Cool so these are what they are Oh Project Manager: So for each of these we need to give it a one to seven Is that right ? Marketing: Yes I did have A B C and D down here but it seems to have turned into like just bullet points But if you can imagine that they say A B C and D then that would be really good Industrial Designer: I guess we will give it maximum points in everything User Interface: the it is definitely attractive Oh the locatable thing we actually forgot Marketing: Well I thought we would kind of said that you would have a little thing to stick on the TV ? User Interface: Shall I just prepare it now ? It will be red too Marketing: Cool So be attractive to look at That is this one What do you all say ? User Interface: S seven was th the maximum ? I I go for seven Marketing: Oh we are all so proud of the Project Manager: Seven it is terribly sexy Marketing: so that will be a seven for A Could oh no you can not whilst that is up there what I have done on the next page is I have set it up so we just put the marks in Project Manager: Excellent Except we can not Industrial Designer: But we can we can I can I can take note Marketing: If you take a note of them and then I will put them in in a minute Project Manager: then I will take a note it is fine Marketing: so we are all agreeing on seven for A ? Cool Does it match the operating behaviour of the user ? Industrial Designer: the the only thing that we were considering was that this thing is kind of more for righthanded people than for lefthanded people so if you are lefthanded you are kind of left scrolling with your finger User Interface: so y so we we might do we might want to do like a another m model another another version which is like exactly the mirror image of this one Project Manager: But that is going to be a problem because you do not always have all lefthanders or all righthanders in a family Industrial Designer: So bu it is it is not a huge problem Marketing: I th I think it is not it is not like it is a pen Industrial Designer: because i i it is operatable User Interface: But then then I think lefthanded people are already used to discrimination anyway Marketing: but I mean because it is not like it is a pen you know lefthanded people can not normally write righthanded but they can normally do most things righthanded so I would say it is not such a big issue User Interface: because I mean anyway righthanded people would be able to scroll with it Marketing: I mean you can you can use your finger to to scroll rather than your thumb User Interface: so i if the majority are righthanded it is Marketing: So I mean that does kind of negate the whole RSI issue So maybe we need to put that needs a little bit of investigation maybe give it a five I would say ? What do you what do you all think ? User Interface: Or maybe six because it is just one one i one among the issues Project Manager: I think I think for I mean most people are righthanded so in in terms of our greatest target group I think it is pretty good but we might want to flag it for management they want might want to Industrial Designer: One more thing is that i It might be a little clumsy when when it opens up right so it opens on the side So User Interface: No but mm but we have it nicely with the hinges here So it will not be a problem Industrial Designer: So you guys can decide wh whether User Interface: it will be and it will be it will not be heavy Marketing: I th I think the alternative is flipping from the top Industrial Designer: but we which makes it kind of really big Project Manager: The length is going to be difficu User Interface: but it is it is a bit long It is a little bit long Well I mean it can be opened like this of course and Marketing: But you were thinking about making it smaller ? Industrial Designer: this this kind of makes it more and two it might interfere with the IR channel Marketing: So you have to keep that side flat User Interface: but if we flip it open only as much as that Marketing: So it works like a mobile phone flipping but y you know as long as that sides flat than that will work so C Are are we admitting defeat on C or are we saying we are going to stick a locator on the TV ? Industrial Designer: No we have a locator Project Manager: No we are going to put it like we have got th there is the locator dot Marketing: There is a locator Cool so that means you need a that does mean you need a little speaker on it though User Interface: Mm that you stick on TV Marketing: does not it ? To make it beep User Interface: well w but l but the speak sample speaker is included so it it has some capacity to mm to do some to make some sounds so Marketing: So that is two so that is seven It is locatable ? User Interface: If if this means intuitive if it means the way people kind of are used to finding things and it is I th I think it is Project Manager: I would say six because the I mean the the standard layout for numbers is three three three and one rather than the way you have got it I really like the way you have it but it is not the immediate thing that you are used to Industrial Designer: And even the scroll it is a it is a new technology so m m might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginni so it is kind of not very intuitive but it is a good technology I mean once they get used to it Project Manager: But it and it is something that they will be experiencing in a lot of different places soon Marketing: So should we maybe say f a five and say it is intuitive but it is different so do you know I mean it is obvious how to use it but you might have to think about it first So we give that one a five you think ? Industrial Designer: I am going to give a seven in everything so Project Manager: I am happy with five ? Marketing: I am glad you are accepting this It has taken a little while has not it ? intuitive but Sorry it is really hard to write on those I just went a bit mad did not I ? cool E I would guess this comes back from this whole B thing links in here so possibly for lefthanded Investigate Project Manager: Yep But otherwise it is superb Marketing: So should we give it a six ? User Interface: well mm I mean I d I do not know I mean the the repetitive stress things but then who would be really pushing the buttons so much on the on the remote control anyway Industrial Designer: unless you are a all the time sitting User Interface: so it is kind of Industrial Designer: I I think it is ergonomic Marketing: I used to send fifty texts a day you know Project Manager: Well we have banned them from Marketing: and I never got repetitive strain injury from that so I find it quite hard to believe to be honest Industrial Designer: And moreover it it has LCD and everything so that you know we minimise the pressing of the buttons anyway Marketing: so we give that a six Hang on how come it is showing up with the things there but it only had bullet points there ? That is just Project Manager: Ah that is the second one So you must have changed it on this one where it is got score but not on the previous slide Industrial Designer: So it has voice control Marketing: Yes so that is a seven then Industrial Designer: it is the most sophisticated remote that I ever seen Project Manager: But in terms of the actual technology none of it is actually new User Interface: Well mm we have we have the sample speaker as well which is it is kind of new Marketing: but I mean you do not Project Manager: All of the components have been used in other things before Industrial Designer: but they have been brought together in a remote User Interface: But at the same time they are all they are all relatively new Marketing: They are never been used i they have never been using remote remote control before I do not think Project Manager: What do you reckon five six ? Marketing: what do you all think ? User Interface: I mean how how far can you go with a remote control really ? Marketing: Well that is it I mean User Interface: It still has to do what i what it has to do Marketing: but I mean everything has been used in space before it gets to anyone else really has not it ? So I do not think many peop That is it they can take it with them User Interface: is not it fashionable ? It is the maximum fashion Marketing: So we give it seven and we write User Interface: Fruit fruit and vegetables are fashionable these days so Industrial Designer: I think that is a User Interface: So I think we have done very well but What is the assessment ? Marketing: So we need the average here so we got User Interface: The average is about six and something A little bit over six Industrial Designer: There are how many sixes ? Marketing: So we have got four sevens User Interface: No wait a little bit under six Marketing: so that is twenty eight Project Manager: Fifty one one two three four five six seven eight Industrial Designer: twenty eight thirty eight fo forty six Forty six and five fifty one Marketing: Two three four Seven eight that is pretty good I think Project Manager: Now wait until we get to finance and then we will see if we can afford it That is all you have got at the moment or did you have anything more ?","The group gave a high score in terms of a fashion look, the ease of use, the locator, the scroll wheel, the LCD screen as well as the voice recognition technology. They also calculated the average overall score was six point five. The group agreed that the assessment was very good." "Marketing: Cool Does it match the operating behaviour of the user ? Industrial Designer: the the only thing that we were considering was that this thing is kind of more for righthanded people than for lefthanded people so if you are lefthanded you are kind of left scrolling with your finger User Interface: so y so we we might do we might want to do like a another m model another another version which is like exactly the mirror image of this one Project Manager: But that is going to be a problem because you do not always have all lefthanders or all righthanders in a family Industrial Designer: So bu it is it is not a huge problem Marketing: I th I think it is not it is not like it is a pen Industrial Designer: because i i it is operatable User Interface: But then then I think lefthanded people are already used to discrimination anyway Marketing: but I mean because it is not like it is a pen you know lefthanded people can not normally write righthanded but they can normally do most things righthanded so I would say it is not such a big issue User Interface: because I mean anyway righthanded people would be able to scroll with it Marketing: I mean you can you can use your finger to to scroll rather than your thumb User Interface: so i if the majority are righthanded it is Marketing: So I mean that does kind of negate the whole RSI issue So maybe we need to put that needs a little bit of investigation maybe give it a five I would say ? What do you what do you all think ? User Interface: Or maybe six because it is just one one i one among the issues Project Manager: I think I think for I mean most people are righthanded so in in terms of our greatest target group I think it is pretty good but we might want to flag it for management they want might want to",Industrial Designer mentioned that they were considering that the remote was more for right-handed people than for left-handed people. Project Manager said that there didn't always have all left-handers or all right-handers in a family. Marketing mentioned that users could use their finger to scroll rather than their thumb and this would negate the whole RSI issue. Project Manager agreed on it and the group would need an investigation. "Marketing: so C Are are we admitting defeat on C or are we saying we are going to stick a locator on the TV ? Industrial Designer: No we have a locator Project Manager: No we are going to put it like we have got th there is the locator dot Marketing: There is a locator Cool so that means you need a that does mean you need a little speaker on it though User Interface: Mm that you stick on TV Marketing: does not it ? To make it beep User Interface: well w but l but the speak sample speaker is included so it it has some capacity to mm to do some to make some sounds so Marketing: So that is two so that is seven It is locatable ? User Interface: If if this means intuitive if it means the way people kind of are used to finding things and it is I th I think it is Project Manager: I would say six because the I mean the the standard layout for numbers is three three three and one rather than the way you have got it I really like the way you have it but it is not the immediate thing that you are used to Industrial Designer: And even the scroll it is a it is a new technology so m m might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginni so it is kind of not very intuitive but it is a good technology I mean once they get used to it Project Manager: But it and it is something that they will be experiencing in a lot of different places soon Marketing: So should we maybe say f a five and say it is intuitive but it is different so do you know I mean it is obvious how to use it but you might have to think about it first So we give that one a five you think ? Industrial Designer: I am going to give a seven in everything so Project Manager: I am happy with five ? Marketing: I am glad you are accepting this It has taken a little while has not it ? intuitive but Sorry it is really hard to write on those I just went a bit mad did not I ?","The group agreed that the remote had a high score in terms of locatability, so they first thought it was also intuitive. Then, Industrial Designer mentioned that it might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginning because the scroll was a new technology. Marketing thought it was obvious how to use it. Therefore, groupmates agreed to give an average score of five." "Project Manager: Alright So finance And we will see if we can unscrew this first Sorry this is I am just Marketing: There we go and there are the marks Industrial Designer: Mm I guess it will have to wait for a bit Project Manager: Adjusting There we go so we have looked at the prototype presentation and the evaluation criteria And now we have to calculate the production costs So I have got an Excel spreadsheet to help us do that Can you read that ? Almost More or less I started filling it in but of course these are provisional so we have to go down No hand dynamo right ? No kinetic energy no solar The chip we are going for an advanced chip on print We also said the sample sensor and sample speaker singlecurved surface so that we can fold it Case material we said rubber I do not know what special colour means Industrial Designer: Mm anything I think which is not more User Interface: I think something coloured probably So I think this is probably special co no ? Marketing: but rubber comes coloured does not it ? You know Project Manager: it is I would maybe it is like if you want titanium coloured or wood coloured it is different User Interface: Or maybe maybe if you want some kind of pattern thing on it Project Manager: let us leave it as zero because it is easy Marketing: you might end up having to take off the sample sensor Project Manager: We we are definitely going to have to so we have got pushbutton and then we have User Interface: scro we have scroll wheel as well Project Manager: Scroll wheel with pushbutton we had no ? User Interface: S we had for muting And we have LC display Industrial Designer: we are not using any of that User Interface: but what do we ha we have LC display but but the wh but the s spinning wheel Project Manager: But the the spinning wheels not there I have think maybe it is integrated with the LC display ? Marketing: We have got more than one pushbutton though Project Manager: I think the pushbutton oh I do not know if that is one Marketing: That means you can only have twenty five push buttons in total does not it ? Not counting anything we would still be in budget Industrial Designer: Wh wh what is the limit ? Project Manager: whether whether pushbutton means that p count by button or do we User Interface: We have to count all of them or Industrial Designer: Mm I do not think so no Project Manager: I do not think that makes sense Industrial Designer: No it says what what is the kind of interface Marketing: Well it does not but it Industrial Designer: if it is pushbutton then you got a zero point five it is a scroll wheel so we we have put it is pushbutton and scroll wheel and LCD display so that is that is the three kind of interfaces that we have Project Manager: So as we can see that is way too expensive down here Industrial Designer: Wh wh what is our criteria ? Project Manager: Our budgets twelve point five Marketing: the sample sensor will have to go because that is the most expensive thing on there Project Manager: so that has implications though for the Industrial Designer: it does not have for voice recognition but it does have for the feedback speaker when you say when you press one it says one or it says hello Marketing: But that is a bit of a gimmick anyway really is not it ? Industrial Designer: Mm and the locator also goes away Marketing: We can afford to get rid of it User Interface: But it was very no innovative Marketing: So that means no locator does it ? Project Manager: What else does it need ? User Interface: Well the speaker the sample speaker is is expensive but we could just have some some very very easy device that just beeps Project Manager: because the sample speaker was I think more complicated then just a beeping thing User Interface: there you record your samples your speech samples and Industrial Designer: A also i in the case I am not sure that you will evaluate this as a curved surface because it is just rubber so it is probably a flat surface rubber I mean Project Manager: Right so we need one fifty off Marketing: See I was going to say the scroll wheel pushbutton thing because Project Manager: Take it down to just a scroll wheel We could do Industrial Designer: So tha that mean that we can not press how do we how do we make a selection in in the LCD ? User Interface: then then we would be in the b budget Industrial Designer: If in the LCD we can scroll right ? But how do we make a selection if we d can not push the button User Interface: b no no you can push this one but we do not have a pushbutton we ca we do not have this muting mechanism for this scrolling thing Marketing: But that is well you would just have to to spin it down Project Manager: You can have to scroll it straight r roll it straight down for for mute Industrial Designer: No w w w but ha Marketing: So that is point three Industrial Designer: it is it is the scroll wheel and I thought we were referring to this as a scroll spinning wheel and pushbutton thing User Interface: But I mean we can put an additional mute button on the top as well Marketing: I mean that would not actually cost any more That is the spin wheel though is not it ? Did not that come with the LC Project Manager: That is with the LC Industrial Designer: That comes with the LCD ? Project Manager: We decided because it is not on our list Industrial Designer: Oh so so the the this is Project Manager: The scroll wheel is on the side Industrial Designer: So we are adding costs for right I mean I think this is good Marketing: S so we are point three over Project Manager: We are point three over at the moment Marketing: Unless we just take off the scroll wheel altogether and just have pushbuttons for the volume Could b still put them on the side But I mean the scroll wheels pretty cool but Industrial Designer: Instead of scrolling here we have two buttons here up for up and down Mm it sounds good actually Project Manager: Rather than having three different things that people have to do There we go Oh look we are way under budget and we will make huge profits and we will all get bonuses Marketing: well we could admit to the single curve could not we ? Project Manager: Or or that we have to have some sort of special colour So that is alright We we will leave it at that and then I will take I can send it back to management and say we were not quite sure about the colour if that costs extra then we have still got some space for it Excellent Alright So did we lose on our evaluation criteria as a result of doing that ? Marketing: No I do not think so Industrial Designer: Because we keep all the features we keep voice recognition we keep LCD display We instead of having scrolling we we just push the buttons Marketing: We just got rid of a gimmick that was never anyway and the scroll wheel is I mean essentially the two buttons that was it is not a great difference I do not think Industrial Designer: But we lose the locator Project Manager: We are going to have a beep User Interface: Well we are going to have a beeping thing But it is it is not like sample speaker but it will just beep so we still have the locate Marketing: Cool That is not a very exciting colour I think you should make it more vegetablelike User Interface: Which colour the the colour of the phone or the colour of the Marketing: Oh the the beeper thing User Interface: But it can be yellow as well It can come in the same colour as the the case Project Manager: Because we we will not have run out of our pot of PlayDoh Marketing: I think Jen wants it to vibrate Project Manager: I know I know my pen vibrates Marketing: You know your pen vibrates ? Project Manager: But only for a very short time So looks like we have designed a banana Well done team we need we have just got about ten minutes or so left of the meeting so it would be good if we could just have a little talk about the project itself and how it went so that we can feed back to the management for next time they are designing a product User Interface: mm as far as creativity is concerned I think there was there was room for creativity The only the only problem being that at the end we had to cut some things down because of the the budget we had Industrial Designer: I think n one thing that was lacking was that we did not know what the various things cost to begin with we kap kept a adding things randomly Marketing: If we would had that sheet at the beginning should have been like so we can have that lot let us just throw it together and do what we can Industrial Designer: So d all the random decisions at the end could have been prevented","The production cost was 12.5 Euros. So, the group decided to have one simple battery, no kinetic energy, no solar, one advanced chip on print, one sample speaker, one single-curved surface which can be folded, push-buttons, the scroll wheel, the LCD display. And they decided to give up the sample sensor as well as the locator." "Marketing: See I was going to say the scroll wheel pushbutton thing because Project Manager: Take it down to just a scroll wheel We could do Industrial Designer: So tha that mean that we can not press how do we how do we make a selection in in the LCD ? User Interface: then then we would be in the b budget Industrial Designer: If in the LCD we can scroll right ? But how do we make a selection if we d can not push the button User Interface: b no no you can push this one but we do not have a pushbutton we ca we do not have this muting mechanism for this scrolling thing Marketing: But that is well you would just have to to spin it down Project Manager: You can have to scroll it straight r roll it straight down for for mute Industrial Designer: No w w w but ha Marketing: So that is point three Industrial Designer: it is it is the scroll wheel and I thought we were referring to this as a scroll spinning wheel and pushbutton thing User Interface: But I mean we can put an additional mute button on the top as well Marketing: I mean that would not actually cost any more That is the spin wheel though is not it ? Did not that come with the LC Project Manager: That is with the LC Industrial Designer: That comes with the LCD ? Project Manager: We decided because it is not on our list Industrial Designer: Oh so so the the this is Project Manager: The scroll wheel is on the side Industrial Designer: So we are adding costs for right I mean I think this is good Marketing: S so we are point three over",User Interface asked whether they could put an additional mute button on the top of the scroll spinning when discussing the scroll wheel push button. Marketing suggested the spin wheel with the LCD because it would not add much cost. Project Manager mentioned that it already came with the LCD and it's not on their list. The scroll wheel was on the remote side. Marketing agreed on it and group mates thought it was a good idea. "Project Manager: Excellent Alright So did we lose on our evaluation criteria as a result of doing that ? Marketing: No I do not think so Industrial Designer: Because we keep all the features we keep voice recognition we keep LCD display We instead of having scrolling we we just push the buttons Marketing: We just got rid of a gimmick that was never anyway and the scroll wheel is I mean essentially the two buttons that was it is not a great difference I do not think Industrial Designer: But we lose the locator Project Manager: We are going to have a beep User Interface: Well we are going to have a beeping thing But it is it is not like sample speaker but it will just beep so we still have the locate Marketing: Cool That is not a very exciting colour I think you should make it more vegetablelike User Interface: Which colour the the colour of the phone or the colour of the Marketing: Oh the the beeper thing User Interface: But it can be yellow as well It can come in the same colour as the the case Project Manager: Because we we will not have run out of our pot of PlayDoh","Industrial Designer thought they lost the locator while keeping other features. But Project Manager responded that they were going to have a beeper. User Interface supplemented that it was not like a sample speaker, but it would beep so they still had the locator." "Marketing: Oh I totally because I moved it S put it over here Then we do not have to worry about it Project Manager: All set ? Cool Alright it is PowerPoint time I have done more PowerPoints in this particular experiment than I have ever done in my life before this experiment which is kind of fun So here we have our detailed design meeting where we will look at the prototype and right so I finally figured out what this whole second bullet point is about in my that my coach was sending to me It means I am supposed to read the minutes from the previous meeting I do not know Otherwise it is just saying I am the secretary and I am therefore I am taking the minutes s so just to go just real briefly to go over minutes from last meeting I will open them slowly no ? Wait for it wait for it No That is how the This is this is very highpowered stuff here doubleclicking there we go So basically the moral of the story from our last minute last meeting was that we that we had meetings from we had presentations done by the Industrial Designer or from Nathan and Ron and from Sarah about what we can do here and what sort of limitations we are operating with excuse me what limitations we are operating under what kind of risk we would be looking at with some of the various approaches we were discussing and we essentially came to the conclusion that we should develop a remote with voice recognition IE that had a vaguely nonremote like shape because you did not really need to use it as a remote since you could just use your voice That would include some mostly just the simple design features for a television operation but with a slide or a foldout bay for more advanced functions for users and the the UID and the ID were asked to go ahead and start developing a prototype for us to look at So That is sorted back to the main meet here go ahead and take it away guys Industrial Designer: Well we have assembled our prototype What is to be said about it ? we took into account a lot of the things that we went over in the last meeting Some of the most important things to consider are that we decided not to go for the touch screen which you can see and opted for some very large buttons for the primary functions This is going to be the on off button and we have these buttons to go through the channels and then two volume buttons down here d we decided those were the most important buttons And then for the more advanced functions there is a slide out panel here and you can see that there are lots of other things going on But this actually can slide back in and provides a very nice aesthetic when it is all put away As far as the whole visible light thing we decided to go with the multiple colours coming out Of course if that is annoying for some people that function can be turned off User Interface: No it is important to we talked a quite a bit about you know the the interchangeable faces and what we have done here is come up with a bit of a natural look here f we call it fruity of course that is interchangeable and I think it would be desirable for the for the regular product in the in the in the in the first packaging to be something a little bit more subdued but this is kind of something that can be done and as you can see on the television there we have the voice detector device on the top there So that that will work quite well with with regard to finding this contraption what other things do we see here well if you give it a touch it does have actually a bit of a spongy feel so I think that will work well with regards to our market and let us see well clearly there is going to be some more colours and what not available do you have anything else to add to that ? Industrial Designer: I worried about the materials it is the entire thing is covered in a rubber coating so it is very durable it is not going to break like some types of plastic that is dropped and of course as you can see and if you touch it it does have that nice squishy feel User Interface: It is actually important to note that the television you know if there is an earthquake or anything like that that i it actually is edible inside Industrial Designer: Fact I do not know if you noticed but I wrote the the companys name on the telephone screen Project Manager: Oh well done oh ok Industrial Designer: I thought that was kind of nice This was actually an apple on the inside Marketing: Do we need to worry about rot factors ? User Interface: it is encased in a new type of Marketing: Oh there is preservatives involved we do not need to worry Industrial Designer: We got a bit ahead of ourselves I know we are not talking about making televisions at this point or anything like that but Project Manager: Edible televisions it is a wave of the future User Interface: It is pos a possible new product Marketing: It is a couple years off at least User Interface: but I think that is I think that sums up the main features of our of the remote I do not know if you guys have any questions or f whether that whether we need to worry about any other marketing areas or anything of that nature did we come in under budget ? Industrial Designer: we did This cost well to put this into production we are looking at about what was our goal ? It was twelve fifty Euro and this actually came in at about eleven ninety nine so I was quite pleased with that One thing that we did not do obviously we had a choice with the buttons whether to use scroll buttons or standard rubber buttons but we just went for a classic rubber button and since we did that we did not have to use as many microchips which was quite nice and that is what helped keep the cost down So even though it has a lot of modern technology for example the voice recognition in a lot of ways it is just a simple remote and I think if we shopped around for other manufacturers we might be able to get even cheaper User Interface: Mm Did we talk about the voice recognition option ? Industrial Designer: And Oh no we have not talked about that yet have we ? User Interface: So so on the back here you all noticed this area here which is actually the voice recognition console and I think it is nicely designed into the into the overall look but basically the voice recognition incorporates the latest designs that our research team has been able to cufw come up with Basically quite similar to the coffee maker design that we were talking about earlier and I think that has given a proven ease of use and what not And allows features like the remote actually talking back to the user so Marketing: Do we have other for lack of a better word skins ? Covers ? In play now or are those ones going to be developed later once we see how the couple we have g go or ? Industrial Designer: do you want to answer this one Marketing: Do we know where we stand on that yet ? Industrial Designer: or do you want me to answer it ? User Interface: Well we did not quite have enough material Marketing: Oh I was not expecting a prototype I just did not know if you guys had any in mind yet Industrial Designer: well as you can see this is just a most superficial layer and it would be very easy to put another layer of something else like User Interface: Actually this bottom red ring here just unclips and then you put a a new a new a new plate on top of that So I mean there are I we definitely priced out a spongy even spongier nonnatural look materials which I think worked out fine We also continued on with the ideas that f following Apples colour schemes with the kind of the light orange and the green Industrial Designer: It is not it is not quite a a face plate it is more like a pseudoface plate because it is simple enough that in the factory it could we could very easily put a different one on it it locks into place such that you know it is pretty permanent but at the same time if we want to go the other way it is just a matter of a couple of adjustments and we could go the face plate way if you know what I mean Marketing: Yep It is still an option if we need it Project Manager: Right thanks guys that is very very good work I like it brilliant what we need to discuss now is the finance of it I got me you have got you provided a number that actually sounds quite nice the trouble is I was just given this by finance it is a spreadsheet of the parts and I have just tentatively put in what it is going to look like I am just going to clear this out real quickly but it looks like So we will just if we can just itemize what is in here we have got this it is a solar cell thing right ? With a backup battery ? Industrial Designer: we did not really touch on that but it it is in there User Interface: The voice recognition area actually doubles as as the solar cell area Project Manager: Clever clever well done so I guess that would mean we have got a bit of a It is a s a speaker and a sensor at the same time is not it ? Industrial Designer: It is just making use of the same space and the same materials Project Manager: and the case it is more of a singlecurved case I guess would be that be the general Industrial Designer: one big curve I guess you could say Project Manager: and we have got a rubber skin material basically throughout Push button interface with this other dropdown so maybe we have got two push button interfaces do not we ? And a special I guess it is we have got a sort of a wood materi a rubbery type material that throughout Industrial Designer: And s I guess you have to mark special colour and special form as well do not you ? Because it i it is very unconventional Project Manager: it is it is quite unique Industrial Designer: I like to think of it as unconventional Project Manager: I like it it is So it looks like Marketing: M come in at sixteen ? Industrial Designer: Oh Huh does not match up does it ? Project Manager: So what we could do perhaps a simple fix would maybe to switch away from the solar cells or take out the backup battery Industrial Designer: How do you feel about that ? User Interface: I mean I think that if we are talking about it being one of our main selling features being environmental and without the batteries and what not although it does still have a battery so I am not sure that you know what the sell is on that Industrial Designer: I mean we could take we could take the battery out of it you see and it would probably work ninety nine per cent of the time but you are going to have to set up a call centre for that one per cent of the time when people are calling and saying oh look my remote is not working what am I going to do ? Peopled be real upset I think in the longrun it is better to keep the battery it is hard to scrap the whole cell battery idea because that is so integral to the theme that we have Project Manager: What is difficult we have all these things integral to the to the design of it that we just can not back out of now it would have to be seems like we would have to go back to square one in a way if we were going to try to undo one bit we would probably have to undo most of it Marketing: Although we do not want to get rid of the whole environmental I mean obviously the solar cell is a big piece of the way we are marketing this as like a natural new thing but honestly if we cut that one piece out we are actually coming in under budget if I have done my math correctly User Interface: I mean you might be able to sway me on the idea that we our main selling point could be already this voice recognition thing I mean that is what sets us apart Marketing: that is what setting us into this young market I mean that is where we started from so I do not know and I mean you know perhaps when the cell technology comes down in price we can bring that back into the game but it looks like at this point that may be out of our league User Interface: And the reality is you know for me from an ideological stand point I would like to stick with the the solar cell but I h kind of have to throw myself in the in the business structure model here and you know I think I think that I think that we need to come to a compromise here and maybe move ahead with the project without the solar cell Industrial Designer: I guess we might have to do that Marketing: I think unfortunately that is our best option Industrial Designer: It is the only way we are going to get below our goal is not it ? Of twelve fifty Project Manager: Because we can not remove the push buttons because they are and we can not get rid of the I mean removing the changing the case would not be so much of a mmmm nor would changing the case materials So that looks like to be the only thing So that would be the it is a major change but Alright so Industrial Designer: Got To do what you got to do Project Manager: we are in agreement on that Marketing: Unfortunately I think we are User Interface: No I think that was a good compromise you brought forward Sarah Project Manager: Right Moving along swiftly so I guess now we just go to the project evaluation which I will allow Sarah to take over Marketing: That would be me cord ? that would be great thank you I did not even do that one on purpose either damn basically I was just evaluating from what we know of how our products working right now with the criteria that we set at the beginning of these are the things we needed to do these are the things that look like we feel they are important so I was looking at basic design things does it fulfil its functions as a remote ? Is the design what we wanted it to do ? I are technologies up to where we hoped they would be and does it fulfil the aesthetic qualities that our original market research was looking for ? Basic questions like you know does it turn on ? Does it respond to voice recognition ? And overall in general it looks like it is coming up to par the only thing is with with the pullout panel that is can it take some adjusting because it is a new sort of interface that looked like it was coming up rough but then once you get used to it it does make a lot of sense So I think overall we are headed in the right direction So User Interface: They like that spongy feel Marketing: It looks like it is going over well so User Interface: And the paging function works well that is good to hear Marketing: we are we are good User Interface: we worked hard on that one Marketing: It is I think eventually if we do branch out with this product maybe we do have a higher budget options and if it goes over with this model we can look into wider range voice recognition like from other rooms of the house and stuff but for now what we have got is working in the range we need it for so it is all good Industrial Designer: I am bit disappointed about losing the solar panel Marketing: That is everything from me it is a setback but do you need the cord back ? User Interface: W we might have we might have lost that granola market again Project Manager: I was just go on Well they do not own tellys anyway do they ? User Interface: I guess that is true","The group briefly talked about their agreements of the past meetings. They were all concerned with the interchangeable user interfaces and they agreed to make it more natural-looking and multi-faces. The Industrial Design then mentioned the issue of the material. They decided to use a rubber coat in case the remote control would be damaged when being dropped occasionally. After most details were checked, the Project Manager turned to the budget problem. It is quite essential for them to be both environmentally friendly and economic." "Industrial Designer: Peopled be real upset I think in the longrun it is better to keep the battery it is hard to scrap the whole cell battery idea because that is so integral to the theme that we have Project Manager: What is difficult we have all these things integral to the to the design of it that we just can not back out of now it would have to be seems like we would have to go back to square one in a way if we were going to try to undo one bit we would probably have to undo most of it Marketing: Although we do not want to get rid of the whole environmental I mean obviously the solar cell is a big piece of the way we are marketing this as like a natural new thing but honestly if we cut that one piece out we are actually coming in under budget if I have done my math correctly User Interface: I mean you might be able to sway me on the idea that we our main selling point could be already this voice recognition thing I mean that is what sets us apart Marketing: that is what setting us into this young market I mean that is where we started from so I do not know and I mean you know perhaps when the cell technology comes down in price we can bring that back into the game but it looks like at this point that may be out of our league User Interface: And the reality is you know for me from an ideological stand point I would like to stick with the the solar cell but I h kind of have to throw myself in the in the business structure model here and you know I think I think that I think that we need to come to a compromise here and maybe move ahead with the project without the solar cell Industrial Designer: I guess we might have to do that Marketing: I think unfortunately that is our best option Industrial Designer: It is the only way we are going to get below our goal is not it ? Of twelve fifty","While discussing the financial issue, the User Interface put forward to making the remote control environmental and not using batteries, the Industrial Design disagreed with him. Because for one thing, no one could guarantee the solar cell work well all the time and for another, it is quite dear to set up a solar system." "Project Manager: Right So this ones a bit unclear to me to be perfectly fair I got this slide from the coach and I am not sure what it is connected to so I guess we are going to discuss our project process and that is going to go into my report So I guess this is the point where we go out of role it looks like and talk about our satisfaction for room for creativity and so forth and how that all worked I guess Marketing: As in within the team or ? Industrial Designer: Right so it is just kind of a open mic kind of thing or Project Manager: I think it is I mmhmm I think so I think hope I am not screwing up an experiment Marketing: you are in charge there you go so Project Manager: But I trust that she would jump in if I was so fair enough","The Project Manager planned to include their project process in the presentation. In addition, he thought it would be an interesting experiment to carry out an open mic presentation in which the team members could get out of the roles and share their satisfaction of the room and their creativity freely." "Project Manager: Right So this ones a bit unclear to me to be perfectly fair I got this slide from the coach and I am not sure what it is connected to so I guess we are going to discuss our project process and that is going to go into my report So I guess this is the point where we go out of role it looks like and talk about our satisfaction for room for creativity and so forth and how that all worked I guess Marketing: As in within the team or ? Industrial Designer: Right so it is just kind of a open mic kind of thing or Project Manager: I think it is I mmhmm I think so I think hope I am not screwing up an experiment Marketing: you are in charge there you go so Project Manager: But I trust that she would jump in if I was so fair enough right so any thoughts ? Industrial Designer: Are we considering these points here ? Marketing: I think they are starting blocks Project Manager: What do you guys feel about the process ? Marketing: you know I think in general for a days worth of work we actually were relatively productive considering the little amount of input we had going in and the technology has definitely been a help it is really been interesting to try out all this new stuff User Interface: We did not use the whiteboard at all Marketing: No we did not We could now if that would make up for it and I feel like if you guys had been designing in here perhaps that would have changed but because of room constraints does not really matter User Interface: also had I not been intrigued about the pen I do not think I would have used it at all I did not write barely anything Marketing: I think I was taking notes more often than usual just because I liked the pen Project Manager: Was pretty cool tack though Marketing: Mm I am disappointed I did not get a note back from my personal coach Industrial Designer: As you write your personal coach Marketing: but I did not get a response Industrial Designer: What if you get a response two or three months from now ? Marketing: that would be kind of creepy Project Manager: Attempts to contact coach ineffective Marketing: what kind of coaching is that really ? What if I really needed something User Interface: I so n I think there was a lot of room for creativity I do not we could do whatever basically what we wanted until the budget came down on us Marketing: I think so And even then we did get a decent product turned out although it is not everything we wanted it to be Project Manager: That is the brilliance of they had a p they had a peeler in here Marketing: And highly resourceful team mates might I add which is always a plus Project Manager: I think re I thought it was like really creative actually I mean User Interface: I think the teamwork was good as well Industrial Designer: And to prove that we were not wasteful we did not waste a single bit of PlayDoh we used every bit Marketing: Nice All four of those little containers Project Manager: Including the s the multicoloured wave pattern Industrial Designer: My one my one criticism is that we did not have enough colours to work with we only had four was not enough Marketing: You could have developed multiple skins really had you had more colours Industrial Designer: I know it could have been amazing Project Manager: What did you guys think about the the the roles ? Industrial Designer: it is f kind of fun it was I think it was pretty clever because we were never able to get too far off track because the information came in at the right time and kind of filled in the gaps enough At the same time you had enough room to kind of just make things up which was kind of fun Marketing: Though I did feel like th the level of information dropped off severely over the course of the day I mean maybe it is just me but I did not actually get any information for the last presentation at all Project Manager: That is true I I got this spreadsheet Marketing: Nothing I did not even get an email that was it So I feel like that was slightly lacking but then you know fill in the blanks on your own level of creativity upped User Interface: Well I think that was I think that was an issue I kept finding with regard to well no but also when I was reporting about what each of us was doing I was often confused as to what you were doing Marketing: Mmhmm Uhhuh that was not very much User Interface: and then I also felt like you know a lot of our discussion would centre around n specifically what my task was because that was kind of the interface portion which was what the whole project was about but and then in the end I think our jobs kind of melded together a little bit more Industrial Designer: That was fun I think the most helpful thing out of everything was getting the the PowerPoint slides already put together for you because if we did not have that there is no way we could have got all that done in time Marketing: already having the formatted stuff helped a lot Very much so User Interface: And I think your leadership was quite good Project Manager: She said I I I she actually made a comment off boy you are getting into this and I really I think it is true I did get I I felt like I got way too into it Marketing: That is kind of a good thing though Project Manager: I felt like I slipped into it a lot Industrial Designer: It is kind of fun Marketing: you know give the rest of us some structure to work with so hey User Interface: An so is that the first time you have taken on that kind of role ? Project Manager: The first time I have ever done anything like project project management I usually organise crap it is one thing to do you know set up a party with your friends But you guys felt that you could keep the suspension of disbelief kind of like like the role and the ? Marketing: I except for a couple moments where it just got out of hand and I knew we were all lying through our teeth User Interface: I had to admit as soon as w we started I mean as soon as we got the PlayDoh th you know the whole concept of really trying to stick with reality went out the window Project Manager: Maybe in in Legos you know ? Be fun with Legos too like make a remote control or spaceship we used to have spaceship Legos did you guys ever used to build spaceships with Legos everybody knows best spaceships ever you guys felt like there was enough teamwork in all ? No I no I do not know I d I I do not know I do not I I was just I Marketing: Though we did not actually I mean other than minor discussion at meetings there was not except for the actual building Project Manager: It is true huh ? Marketing: but I feel like if this was a team project there actually would have been much more of the collaborative like brainstorming use the board well and this would have been six months worth of work not like three hours worth of meetings User Interface: I think had the issue been more serious we probably would have brainstormed more during our meetings as a team I mean Project Manager: Course I am I am conscious of the idea of the Project Manager asking if you guys feel like there is a team you know it is like kind of like like But Interesting It is kind of fascinating was not it ? I mean the whole process of Industrial Designer: Wonder why is there anything about the way that we got so much inform what was it that kept us from going to the the board ?","The User Interface first pointed out that they did not use the whiteboard at all, neither did they use the pen as well. However, according to Marketing, it was quite understandable that due to the room constraints, such devices were not used. But the worse problem was that they did not receive as many notes as they wanted, the Marketing even received no reply after he wrote his coach." "Project Manager: Including the s the multicoloured wave pattern Industrial Designer: My one my one criticism is that we did not have enough colours to work with we only had four was not enough Marketing: You could have developed multiple skins really had you had more colours Industrial Designer: I know it could have been amazing","The Industrial Design was not quite satisfied with the skin colours. He thought there were not enough colours for them to work with, however, the Marketing believed that the Industrial Design could have developed more colours for the group. This might be a pity of their teamwork." "Project Manager: you guys felt like there was enough teamwork in all ? No I no I do not know I d I I do not know I do not I I was just I Marketing: Though we did not actually I mean other than minor discussion at meetings there was not except for the actual building Project Manager: It is true huh ? Marketing: but I feel like if this was a team project there actually would have been much more of the collaborative like brainstorming use the board well and this would have been six months worth of work not like three hours worth of meetings User Interface: I think had the issue been more serious we probably would have brainstormed more during our meetings as a team I mean Project Manager: Course I am I am conscious of the idea of the Project Manager asking if you guys feel like there is a team you know it is like kind of like like But Interesting It is kind of fascinating was not it ? I mean the whole process of Industrial Designer: Wonder why is there anything about the way that we got so much inform what was it that kept us from going to the the board ?","All the other three group members did not agree with the Project Manager that they thought they did not do enough as a team. Even though it might be because this was only a virtual project which did not require an actual building, as the Marketing said, it should be a much longer time of actual work rather than just imagining the remote control through three hours' meetings." "Grad A: OK we are on So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on if you are wearing a wireless And you should be able to see which one which one you are on by watching the little bars change Grad B: So which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one Grad A: So actually if you guys want to go ahead and read digits now as long as you ve signed the consent form that s alright Grad E: Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ? Grad A: Each individually We are talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult To try to read them while everyone else is Grad E: Everyone would need extreme focus Grad A: So when you are reading the digit strings the first thing to do is just say which transcript you are on Professor C: Other way We m We may wind up with ver We we may need versions of all this garbage Grad A: So the first thing you would want to do is just say which transcript you are on So You can see the transcript ? There s two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins And I will give I will read the digit strings first so can see how that goes Again I m not sure how much I should talk about pause stuff before everyone s here Professor C: Mmm Well we have one more coming Grad A: OK Well why do not I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there Professor C: OK Well we can start doing it Grad A: Thanks So just also a note on wearing the microphones All of you look like you are doing it reasonably correctly but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth and then at the corner And that s so that you minimize breath sounds so that when you are breathing you do not breathe into the mike that s good And So everyone needs to fill out only once the speaker form and the consent form And the short form I mean you should read the consent form but the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts So if you say things and you do not want them to be released to the general public which these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them you will be given an opportunity by email to bleep out any portions you do not like On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can If you are not exactly sure about the region we are not exactly sure either So do not worry too much about it The It s just self rating And I think that s about it I mean should I Do you want me to talk at all about why we are doing this and what this project is ? Professor C: No There was there was Let s see Oh Grad E: Does Nancy know that we are meeting in here ? Professor C: She got an emai she was notified Grad E: Oh she got an e Professor C: Whether she knows is another question So are the people going to be identified by name ? Grad A: Well what we are going to we will anonymize it in the transcript but not in the audio Professor C: OK So then in terms of people worrying about excising things from the transcript it s unlikely Since it it does is not attributed Oh I see but the a but the but the Grad A: Right so if I said `` Oh hi Jerry how are you ? `` we are not going to go through and cancel out the `` Jerry `` s so we will go through and in the speaker ID tags there will be you know M one O seven M one O eight it w I do not know a good way of doing it on the audio and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data Professor C: OK Mm No I I was not complaining I just wanted to understand Grad B: Well we can make up aliases for each of us Grad A: I mean whatever you want to do is fine but we find that We want the meeting to be as natural as possible So we are trying to do real meetings And so we do not want to have to do aliases and we do not want people to be editing what they say So I think that it s better just as a pro post process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft Professor C: Right OK So why do not you tell us briefly your give give your e normal schpiel Grad A: So this is The project is called Meeting Recorder and there are lots of different aspects of the project So my particular interest is in the PDA of the future This is a mock up of one Yes we do believe the PDA of the future will be made of wood comment The idea is that you would be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting and record it and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on on the meeting So that s my particular interest is a portable device to do m information retrieval on meetings Other people are interested in other aspects of meetings So the first step on that in any of these is to collect some data And so what we wanted is a room that s instrumented with both the table top microphones and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes as well as the close talking mikes What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth gives us high quality audio especially for people who are not interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus So for people who are more interested in language we did not want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available And then also it s a very very hard task in terms of speech recognition And so on the far field mikes we can expect very low recognition results So we wanted the near field mikes to at least isolate the difference between the two So that s why we are recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time And then all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like beam forming on all the microphones and do research like that Our intention is to release this data to the public probably through f through a body like the LDC And just make it as a generally available corpus There s other work going on in meeting recording So we are we are working with SRI with UW NIST has started an effort which will include video We are not including video obviously And and then also a small amount of assistance from IBM Is also involved Oh and the digit strings this is just a more constrained task So because the general environment is so challenging we decided to to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier And it s exactly the same digit strings as in TI digits which is a common connected digits corpus So we will have some comparison to be able to be made OK so when the l last person comes in just have them wear a wireless It should be on already Either one of those And read the digit strings and and fill out the forms So the most important form is the consent form so just be s be sure everyone signs that if they consent Grad B: I m sure it s pretty usual for meetings that people come late so you will have to leave what you set Grad A: Right And just give me a call which my number s up there when your meeting is over And I m going to leave the mike here but it s n nonvocalsound but I m not going to be on so do not have them use this one It will just be sitting here Grad B: Input ? There we go Professor C: By the way Adam we will be using the screen as well So you know Wow ! Organization So you guys who got email about this pause oh f Friday or something about what we are up to Grad E: What was the nature of the email ? Professor C: Oh this was about pause inferring intentions from features in context and the words like `` s go to see `` or `` visit `` or some Grad B: Wel we I I I Professor C: You did not get it ? Grad E: I do not think I did Professor C: I guess these g have got better filters Cuz I sent it to everybody You just blew it off","One of the graduate students is working on building the PDA of the future. The idea is to be able to record meetings for personal use and then query them for pertinent information. The data collection will be anonymized to a large extent, but not so much that the meeting does not represent a real scenario. This meeting will be one of the recorded meetings." "Professor C: Other way We m We may wind up with ver We we may need versions of all this garbage Grad A: So the first thing you would want to do is just say which transcript you are on So You can see the transcript ? There s two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins And I will give I will read the digit strings first so can see how that goes Again I m not sure how much I should talk about pause stuff before everyone s here Professor C: Mmm Well we have one more coming Grad A: OK Well why do not I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there Professor C: OK Well we can start doing it","C began by asking some questions about the recording procedure and wanted to know what excising utterances from the transcript would look like. C asked several questions to that end but clarified that the source of inquiry was curiosity and nothing more. Additionally, C wanted A to explain to the meeting participants what the experiment was for." "Grad A: OK we are on So just make sure that th your wireless mike is on if you are wearing a wireless And you should be able to see which one which one you are on by watching the little bars change Grad B: So which is my bar ? Mah ! Number one Grad A: So actually if you guys want to go ahead and read digits now as long as you ve signed the consent form that s alright Grad E: Are we supposed to read digits at the same time ? Grad A: Each individually We are talking about doing all at the same time but I think cognitively that would be really difficult To try to read them while everyone else is Grad E: Everyone would need extreme focus Grad A: So when you are reading the digit strings the first thing to do is just say which transcript you are on Professor C: Other way We m We may wind up with ver We we may need versions of all this garbage Grad A: So the first thing you would want to do is just say which transcript you are on So You can see the transcript ? There s two large number strings on the digits ? So you would just read that one And then you read each line with a small pause between the lines And the pause is just so the person transcribing it can tell where one line ends and the other begins And I will give I will read the digit strings first so can see how that goes Again I m not sure how much I should talk about pause stuff before everyone s here Professor C: Mmm Well we have one more coming Grad A: OK Well why do not I go ahead and read digit strings and then we can go on from there Professor C: OK Well we can start doing it Grad A: Thanks So just also a note on wearing the microphones All of you look like you are doing it reasonably correctly but you want it about two thumb widths away from your mouth and then at the corner And that s so that you minimize breath sounds so that when you are breathing you do not breathe into the mike that s good And So everyone needs to fill out only once the speaker form and the consent form And the short form I mean you should read the consent form but the thing to notice is that we will give you an opportunity to edit a all the transcripts So if you say things and you do not want them to be released to the general public which these will be available at some point to anyone who wants them you will be given an opportunity by email to bleep out any portions you do not like On the speaker form just fill out as much of the information as you can If you are not exactly sure about the region we are not exactly sure either So do not worry too much about it The It s just self rating And I think that s about it I mean should I Do you want me to talk at all about why we are doing this and what this project is ? Professor C: No There was there was Let s see Oh Grad E: Does Nancy know that we are meeting in here ? Professor C: She got an emai she was notified Grad E: Oh she got an e Professor C: Whether she knows is another question So are the people going to be identified by name ? Grad A: Well what we are going to we will anonymize it in the transcript but not in the audio Professor C: OK So then in terms of people worrying about excising things from the transcript it s unlikely Since it it does is not attributed Oh I see but the a but the but the Grad A: Right so if I said `` Oh hi Jerry how are you ? `` we are not going to go through and cancel out the `` Jerry `` s so we will go through and in the speaker ID tags there will be you know M one O seven M one O eight it w I do not know a good way of doing it on the audio and still have people who are doing discourse research be able to use the data Professor C: OK Mm No I I was not complaining I just wanted to understand Grad B: Well we can make up aliases for each of us Grad A: I mean whatever you want to do is fine but we find that We want the meeting to be as natural as possible So we are trying to do real meetings And so we do not want to have to do aliases and we do not want people to be editing what they say So I think that it s better just as a pro post process to edit out every time you bash Microsoft Professor C: Right OK So why do not you tell us briefly your give give your e normal schpiel Grad A: So this is The project is called Meeting Recorder and there are lots of different aspects of the project So my particular interest is in the PDA of the future This is a mock up of one Yes we do believe the PDA of the future will be made of wood comment The idea is that you would be able to put a PDA at the table at an impromptu meeting and record it and then be able to do querying and retrieval later on on the meeting So that s my particular interest is a portable device to do m information retrieval on meetings Other people are interested in other aspects of meetings So the first step on that in any of these is to collect some data And so what we wanted is a room that s instrumented with both the table top microphones and these are very high quality pressure zone mikes as well as the close talking mikes What the close talk ng talking mikes gives us is some ground truth gives us high quality audio especially for people who are not interested in the acoustic parts of this corpus So for people who are more interested in language we did not want to penalize them by having only the far field mikes available And then also it s a very very hard task in terms of speech recognition And so on the far field mikes we can expect very low recognition results So we wanted the near field mikes to at least isolate the difference between the two So that s why we are recording in parallel with the close talking and the far field at the same time And then all these channels are recorded simultaneously and framed synchronously so that you can also do things like beam forming on all the microphones and do research like that Our intention is to release this data to the public probably through f through a body like the LDC And just make it as a generally available corpus There s other work going on in meeting recording So we are we are working with SRI with UW NIST has started an effort which will include video We are not including video obviously And and then also a small amount of assistance from IBM Is also involved Oh and the digit strings this is just a more constrained task So because the general environment is so challenging we decided to to do at least one set of digit strings to give ourselves something easier And it s exactly the same digit strings as in TI digits which is a common connected digits corpus So we will have some comparison to be able to be made OK so when the l last person comes in just have them wear a wireless It should be on already Either one of those And read the digit strings and and fill out the forms So the most important form is the consent form so just be s be sure everyone signs that if they consent",A noted that all participants will have to sign a consent form and read out digits and requested that microphones be kept away from the mouth to minimize breathing sounds. A also mentioned that people will be anonymized in the transcript. A explained that the goal was to eventually be able to query meetings for information. "Grad E: How exactly does the data collection work ? Do they have a map and then you give them a scenario of some sort ? Grad B: OK Imagine you are the the subject You are going to be in here and somebody And and you see either th the three D model or a QuickTime animation of standing you in a square in Heidelberg So you actually see that The first thing is you have to read a text about Heidelberg So just off a textbook tourist guide to familiarize yourself with that sort of odd sounding German street names like Fischergasse and so forth So that s part one Part two is you are told that this huge new wonderful computer system exists that can y tell you everything you want to know and it understands you completely And so you are going to pick up that phone dial a number and you get a certain amount of tasks that you have to solve First you have to know find out how to get to that place maybe with the intention of buying stamps in there Maybe So the next task is to get to a certain place and take a picture for your grandchild The third one is to get information on the history of an object The fourth one And then the g system breaks down It crashes And Grad D: a At the third ? Right then ? Grad B: And then Or after the fourth Some find comment Forget that for now And then a human operator comes on and and exp apologizes that the system has crashed but you know urges you to continue you know ? now with a human operator And so you have basically the same tasks again just with different objects and you go through it again and that was it Oh and one one little bit w And the computer you are you are being told the computer system knows exactly where you are via GPS When the human operator comes on that person does not know So the GPS is crashed as well So the person first has to ask you `` Where are you ? `` And so you have to do some s tell the person sort of where you are depending on what you see there this is a a a a a bit that I d I do not think we Did we discuss that bit ? I just sort of squeezed that in now But it s something that would provide some very interesting data for some people I know So Grad D: So in the display you can Oh you said that you cou you might have a display that shows like the Grad B: a Additionally y you have a a a sort of a map type display Grad D: a w your perspective ? sort of ? So as you move through it that s they just track it on the for themselves Grad B: b y You do not That s I do not know I but y I do not think you really move sort of ? I mean that would be an an an enormous technical effort unless we would We can show it walks to you know We can have movies of walking you walking through through Heidelberg and you ultimately arriving there Maybe we want to do that Grad D: I was just trying to figure out how how ambitious the system is Grad B: The map was sort of intended to You want to go to that place You know and it s sort of there And you see the label of the name So we get those names pronunciation stuff and so forth and we can change that Grad D: Mm Mm So your tasks do not require you to I mean yo you are told So when your task is I do not know `` Go buy stamps `` or something like that ? So do you have to respond ? or does your what are you ste what are you supposed to be telling the system ? Like w what you are doing now ? or Grad B: Well we will see what people do Grad D: There s no OK so it s just like `` Let s figure out what they would say under the circumstances `` Grad B: and and we will record both sides I mean we will record the Wi the Wizard I mean in both cases it s going to be a human in the computer and in the operator case And we will re there will be some dialogue you know ? So you first have to do this and that see wh what they say We can ins instruct the wizard in how expressive and talkative he should be But maybe the maybe what you are suggesting Is what you are suggesting that it might be too poor the data if we sort of limit it to this ping pong one t task results in a question and then there s an answer and that s the end of the task ? You want to m have it more more steps sort of ? Grad D: I I do not know how much direction is given to the subject about what their interaction I mean th they are unfamiliar w with interacting with the system All they know is it s this great system that could do s stuff Professor C: Oh but to some extent this is a different discussion OK ? So we we have to have this discussion of th the experiment and the data collection and all that sorta stuff and we do have a student who is a candidate for wizard she s going to get in touch with me It s a student of Eve s FEY Fey ? Spelled FEY Do you do you Grad D: She started taking the class last year and then did not you know did not continue I g She s a g Is she an undergradua She is a graduate OK I m I know her very very briefly I know she was inter you know interested in aspect and stuff like that Professor C: OK So anyway she s looking for some more part time work w while she s waiting actually for graduate school And she will be in touch So we may have someone to do this and she s got you know some background in in all this stuff And is a linguist st and so So That s So Nancy we will have an At some point we will have another discussion on exactly wha t t you know how that s going to go And Jane but also Liz have offered to help us do this data collection and design and stuff So when we get to that we will have some people doing it that know what they are doing","The computer navigation system will work as follows. The subject of the experiment will familiarize themselves with information about a city. Then, they will be introduced to an advanced navigation system through which they can navigate the city, and they will be given several tasks, like buying stamps. The navigation system will crash, and the subject will be connected to a human operator. Then, the human operator will control the system based on the subject's requests as the subject tries to complete their tasks. Both sides, the assistant and the subject, will be recorded for data collection purposes." "Grad E: How exactly does the data collection work ? Do they have a map and then you give them a scenario of some sort ? Grad B: OK Imagine you are the the subject You are going to be in here and somebody And and you see either th the three D model or a QuickTime animation of standing you in a square in Heidelberg So you actually see that The first thing is you have to read a text about Heidelberg So just off a textbook tourist guide to familiarize yourself with that sort of odd sounding German street names like Fischergasse and so forth So that s part one Part two is you are told that this huge new wonderful computer system exists that can y tell you everything you want to know and it understands you completely And so you are going to pick up that phone dial a number and you get a certain amount of tasks that you have to solve First you have to know find out how to get to that place maybe with the intention of buying stamps in there Maybe So the next task is to get to a certain place and take a picture for your grandchild The third one is to get information on the history of an object The fourth one And then the g system breaks down It crashes And Grad D: a At the third ? Right then ? Grad B: And then Or after the fourth Some find comment Forget that for now And then a human operator comes on and and exp apologizes that the system has crashed but you know urges you to continue you know ? now with a human operator And so you have basically the same tasks again just with different objects and you go through it again and that was it Oh and one one little bit w And the computer you are you are being told the computer system knows exactly where you are via GPS When the human operator comes on that person does not know So the GPS is crashed as well So the person first has to ask you `` Where are you ? `` And so you have to do some s tell the person sort of where you are depending on what you see there this is a a a a a bit that I d I do not think we Did we discuss that bit ? I just sort of squeezed that in now But it s something that would provide some very interesting data for some people I know So Grad D: So in the display you can Oh you said that you cou you might have a display that shows like the Grad B: a Additionally y you have a a a sort of a map type display","B explained that the subject of the experiment will first be given texts about a city, so they can familiarize themselves with foreign terms. Then, they will be introduced to a computer navigation system with which they can navigate the city and provided with a set of tasks to complete. Then, the computer system will crash, including the GPS, so the person will not even know where they are, and the human operator will assist them. To find their location, the subject will have to provide visual information to the human operator. B also thought that creating movies of walking would require a lot of technical effort but later claimed that it may be worth it. B clarified that the goal was to see how people communicate in such a scenario." "Grad D: a w your perspective ? sort of ? So as you move through it that s they just track it on the for themselves Grad B: b y You do not That s I do not know I but y I do not think you really move sort of ? I mean that would be an an an enormous technical effort unless we would We can show it walks to you know We can have movies of walking you walking through through Heidelberg and you ultimately arriving there Maybe we want to do that Grad D: I was just trying to figure out how how ambitious the system is Grad B: The map was sort of intended to You want to go to that place You know and it s sort of there And you see the label of the name So we get those names pronunciation stuff and so forth and we can change that Grad D: Mm Mm So your tasks do not require you to I mean yo you are told So when your task is I do not know `` Go buy stamps `` or something like that ? So do you have to respond ? or does your what are you ste what are you supposed to be telling the system ? Like w what you are doing now ? or Grad B: Well we will see what people do Grad D: There s no OK so it s just like `` Let s figure out what they would say under the circumstances ``",D wanted to know if the videos for the navigation system would be recorded from a first person perspective. D was also trying to understand how ambitious the system was. D learned that the goal was to understand how people reacted and talked in such a scenario. D provided some information about potential candidates for the human operator and wizard roles as well. "Hefin David AM: Good morning Minister How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas and is it something of a mixed bag ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is gone well but I am glad we have done it through this process of early implementer actually piloting it because we are learning lessons as we go along It has gone well It is been encouraging to the extent that we are at the point where we are expanding—we have made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons But in terms of what we are learning one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we are taking because it is being done on the seven early implementers So we are asking parents to come in provide their wage slips provide the birth certificates and so on You are dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds so it is difficult And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area In one case it is a whole authority but it is only one—that is in Blaenau Gwent In others it is smaller areas So we are also hitting those— The other big challenge we are hitting is communication So we are having parents generally who are outside the areas entirely saying Why have not we got this yet ? Can we please get into it ? which is encouraging But the other thing we are having is people who are within pilot authorities where it does not extend to the whole authority saying Well hold on now we think we qualify for something under universal care we think we qualify for something on tax credits Why do not we qualify for this ? Well you are not in the pilot area So we are learning about these things but the biggest one I have to say is the administrative burden and I think that is interesting in how we take this forward for a wider rollout Hefin David AM: What is the administrative burden ? What specifically is that ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is that sheer burden on each local authority and each pilot area to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility to bring in documents to prove their eligibility to make adjustments as it goes forward based on what their changing work patterns are what their salary slips say It is incredibly bureaucratic So yesterday when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding Wales Bill we made clear that our preferred option as put within that framework Bill is actually to build on and to learn from the lessons as well the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model where you actually have—and this by the way is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system where there is clarity that is handled that has elements of information sharing between Government departments such as the Department for Work and Pensions and so on so that the work is done for the parents and the work is done for the local authorities much cleaner much simpler Hefin David AM: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020 ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We are very confident But as I say I am more confident in the fact that we are actually piloting it and phasing this in because I think we have learned from some of the experiences elsewhere including just over the border in England where they have a different version of a childcare offer but they have gone for it in a bigbang approach And it has led to technical issues it is led to volume issues where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it and the complexity I have to say of individual family situations whereas what we are doing Hefin is taking this forward very very carefully Each rollout each expansion that we are doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused some people to come back and say Why can not we all have it now ? It is because we are only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it is rurality or as it will be within densely urban areas where the cost might be slightly higher and that is allowing us to have the confidence that we will have it We have expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd Anglesey and Caerphilly Flintshire now have a crossauthority offer Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September Swansea is planning to do it they tell us in due course—in short order—as well So we have the confidence now that with that learning going on from different pilot areas we will have the full rollout by 2020 Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that in the early adopter areas the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across ? And why is that ? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No it will not because a problem If we were doing this tomorrow it would cause a problem but what we are learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues So there are issues to do with— It is not capacity by the way We are not finding a problem here with capacity whether it is in English language provision or whether it is in Welsh language provision whether it is in children with complex needs we are not finding that as an issue But what we are finding is for example one of the wellknown ones—and I have spoken about this before—is that in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families I have done it myself Grandparents aunts uncles and so on provide free unregistered unlicensed childcare of a sort Now that is not what the scheme is about by the way I have to say So some of the aspects are cultural but what we are also doing alongside this whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot rollout is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well So we have a whole programme running alongside it It is about communicating what the offer is how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to and critically I think how we do that national rollout would be important as well","Huw Irranca-Davies said the process of early implementer areas had gone well and were encouraged to expand. Two things had been learned during this process by their team. To respond to the questioner, Huw Irranca-Davies then further explained the administrative burden they met and expressed a confident attitude in addressing that. The next question answered was about the spread issue of this project." "Hefin David AM: Good morning Minister How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas and is it something of a mixed bag ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is gone well but I am glad we have done it through this process of early implementer actually piloting it because we are learning lessons as we go along It has gone well It is been encouraging to the extent that we are at the point where we are expanding—we have made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons But in terms of what we are learning one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we are taking because it is being done on the seven early implementers So we are asking parents to come in provide their wage slips provide the birth certificates and so on You are dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds so it is difficult And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area In one case it is a whole authority but it is only one—that is in Blaenau Gwent In others it is smaller areas So we are also hitting those— The other big challenge we are hitting is communication So we are having parents generally who are outside the areas entirely saying Why have not we got this yet ? Can we please get into it ? which is encouraging But the other thing we are having is people who are within pilot authorities where it does not extend to the whole authority saying Well hold on now we think we qualify for something under universal care we think we qualify for something on tax credits Why do not we qualify for this ? Well you are not in the pilot area So we are learning about these things but the biggest one I have to say is the administrative burden and I think that is interesting in how we take this forward for a wider rollout",Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned two things that their teams learned from early implementer areas. The first one was how to deal with bureaucracy and the second was about communication with both parents and pilot authorities. "Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that in the early adopter areas the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across ? And why is that ? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No it will not because a problem If we were doing this tomorrow it would cause a problem but what we are learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues So there are issues to do with— It is not capacity by the way We are not finding a problem here with capacity whether it is in English language provision or whether it is in Welsh language provision whether it is in children with complex needs we are not finding that as an issue But what we are finding is for example one of the wellknown ones—and I have spoken about this before—is that in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families I have done it myself Grandparents aunts uncles and so on provide free unregistered unlicensed childcare of a sort Now that is not what the scheme is about by the way I have to say So some of the aspects are cultural but what we are also doing alongside this whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot rollout is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well So we have a whole programme running alongside it It is about communicating what the offer is how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to and critically I think how we do that national rollout would be important as well","Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned there were some economic issues and cultural issues to deal with, rather than the capacity problems." "Hefin David AM: So given the point you have made about grandparents and family would not it be sensible then to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care ? Well through some kind of analysis of that Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well we do not think so and there are good reasons behind this Hefin David AM: Is it because you say that they would not be registered as carers for their own family member ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but there is a deeper reason behind that registration as well The childcare offer is not only to just provide childcare it is the wider aspects that come with this This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer There is an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there is that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well The two tie together So there is an issue here with quality about socialisation and how children learn in an environment as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply childminding That is one important distinction So the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers which could be by the way—because we do have them and we are discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate ? We are having those discussions Hefin David AM: How many of them are there ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We do not think there is a huge number but we are trying to bottom this out at the moment We have not got the exact number but we do not think they are huge numbers but there are in our constituencies registered licensed inspected grandparents who look after other peoples children in a little group of four or five or six or seven but also their own grandchildren Hefin David AM: So they are a kind of grandparents club Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes Now that I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it because it is registered and licensed than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us I do not want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren I look after my grandchildren because I look after them Hefin David AM: And what about the view given that you said that capacity was not an issue of the National Day Nurseries Association which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I do not agree we have the most fragile but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust We know from the early piloting and as we roll it out that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector and we are talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed and registered to take six or seven children to large complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation So there is immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales and we also know there is immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer What the rollout allows us to do backed by £60 million of capital money behind it in terms of capital development of childcare facilities backed by a 10year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economy approach as well—that means by 2020 we get to the point where we are putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development because in some areas we are finding it is not to do with lack of provision and facilities it is to do with lack of staff In other areas we are finding there are plenty of staff but not the adequate facilities We have got to get it right Hefin David AM: That is fair enough but is it realistic to think that there is going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product ? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes I think it is absolutely because again what we are finding is we have got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this rollout One is the work that we are doing on the ground with the phased rollout so we are literally learning live time and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going but also there is a termly update as well We have also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the rollout that we have done to see what that tells us as well But the feedback that we are getting from the childcare providers themselves on the basis that we are now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are is that Yes we can do this because we are putting the money in we have the strategy for the workforce development and it is not going to be the same in all parts of Wales It is not as if what we are saying is Here is what we are going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere So let me give you one key example Alongside this alongside the £60 million capital fund alongside the workforce development we have also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin We know that there is a shortage in parts of Wales for Welsh language childcare development We are specifically putting money into developing that and in fact the first one of those will be from that new tranche of money opening up I think in September They anticipate as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development we will have an additional 40 of those by— It is an additional 30 by 2020 and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that We can not take this for granted Hefin This is difficult This is hard work but we have everything in place to make it happen","Huw Irranca-Davies first talked about the registration of grandparents. Next, Huw Irranca-Davies denied the statement that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Britain, pointing out that childcare offers can make the section more resilient and robust. To continue, Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned that there would be capacity growth in the next several years to deliver the product." "Hefin David AM: So given the point you have made about grandparents and family would not it be sensible then to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care ? Well through some kind of analysis of that Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well we do not think so and there are good reasons behind this Hefin David AM: Is it because you say that they would not be registered as carers for their own family member ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but there is a deeper reason behind that registration as well The childcare offer is not only to just provide childcare it is the wider aspects that come with this This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer There is an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there is that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well The two tie together So there is an issue here with quality about socialisation and how children learn in an environment as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply childminding That is one important distinction So the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers which could be by the way—because we do have them and we are discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate ? We are having those discussions Hefin David AM: How many of them are there ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We do not think there is a huge number but we are trying to bottom this out at the moment We have not got the exact number but we do not think they are huge numbers but there are in our constituencies registered licensed inspected grandparents who look after other peoples children in a little group of four or five or six or seven but also their own grandchildren Hefin David AM: So they are a kind of grandparents club Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes Now that I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it because it is registered and licensed than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us I do not want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren I look after my grandchildren because I look after them","Huw Irranca-Davies emphasized that the focus was on registered licensed providers, for the childcare offer wanted to have a higher quality and provided wider aspects than single childcare. But some grandparents had been registered, licensed, and inspected and they looked after both their grandchildren and other people's children in a little group." "Hefin David AM: That is fair enough but is it realistic to think that there is going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product ? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes I think it is absolutely because again what we are finding is we have got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this rollout One is the work that we are doing on the ground with the phased rollout so we are literally learning live time and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going but also there is a termly update as well We have also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the rollout that we have done to see what that tells us as well But the feedback that we are getting from the childcare providers themselves on the basis that we are now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are is that Yes we can do this because we are putting the money in we have the strategy for the workforce development and it is not going to be the same in all parts of Wales It is not as if what we are saying is Here is what we are going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere So let me give you one key example Alongside this alongside the £60 million capital fund alongside the workforce development we have also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin We know that there is a shortage in parts of Wales for Welsh language childcare development We are specifically putting money into developing that and in fact the first one of those will be from that new tranche of money opening up I think in September They anticipate as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development we will have an additional 40 of those by—","Huw Irranca-Davies thought there would be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product. The confidence was constructed by the development of roll-out, in which the team was learning live time. Moreover, there was a separate fund into cycle meithrin to address the issue of the Welsh language." "Hefin David AM: The last thing from me : the £450 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJetstyle nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parents are going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the addons ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it I have to say not only internally but with childcare providers out there and with parents as well and with local authorities The first thing to say is the £450 rate that we have set has been welcomed and it is been welcomed because it is unlike the much more complex offer that is in England where there is a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it is added complexity and confusion Hefin David AM: Can I just ask there it is been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No because we have not rolled it out in Cardiff yet and that is a salient point Hefin David AM: fair enough But will it be then ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes it will be Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying Please can we have this offer ? and we are keen to give it to them But as I say— Hefin David AM: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £450 in those areas compared to say the Cynon valley ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We can not anticipate it yet Hefin but that is exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works We are reasonably confident that the £450— We are reasonably assured by the feedback that we are having that the £450 might work as a universal amount But if we learn when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport that there needs to be some variation we can look at that because we are not doing a bigbang approach So that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it but at the moment I have to say the £450 amount has been welcomed—it is appropriate You touched on the other aspect though of the wider aspects of beyond the £450 because the £450 does not cover everything The £450 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it does not cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this Now we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are I have to say this has not been ivorytower stuff it is been in discussion with the providers but also parents One : parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I am used to this as a parent myself although mine are older now—Mr IrrancaDavies when you sign on just to be aware if we do take your kids down to St Fagans there is going to be a little bit of a charge for that and so on Hefin David AM: That is fair enough but it would be the lowestincome working families who would be most unduly affected by that because the higher income families would be able to afford those addons the lower income ones will not Is not that a concern ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: If money was absolutely no object then I think you would be looking at quite a different offer but it has to be affordable within what we have got as well The fact that parents including those who are on lower incomes are used to currently discriminating between providers not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well where very often schools now will say We are doing something extra— Hefin David AM: That may be the case but it is not fair is it ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: In a pure argument about equity and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—You can do what you want—I think you would be looking at a very different approach But within what we have I think this works very very well indeed because it is very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions It says Here you have 10 hours of the foundation education offer You have the additional hours here provided with the childcare offer But within those additional hours you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says `` Within that we provide everything '' you may be with a provider that says `` Well actually we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips but it is up to you if you want to come and here is the additional cost— '' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically in terms of what we can do with this offer this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we are not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage In a total fairness argument would you make it universal and with no additional charges ? Well possibly you would But we work within the realistic— Hefin David AM: Or have a lower topend income limit Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee there is that flexibility built into the Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted For the moment I think there is an attraction in terms of the upper limit of saying : one—Let us try not to add additional complexity let us go with a scheme that is already working its way through the system which is if you like what they are doing in England and not add additional complexity But secondly there is an appeal to universality curiously in saying to all parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there is an attraction when you say Let us make an offer focused on working parents as it is as universal to those working parents as possible and avoid the administrative costs of saying Well let us take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55 There is always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak of complexity We have looked at it Darren Millar AM: Just to ask I mean the labour market costs are changing are not they ? You have got the national living wage increasing—Inaudible—that is going to have a bearing is not it on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £450 per hour regime ? By the time it is fully rolled out of course that £450 rate is going to be a number of years old for example Do you have plans to review that ? Where is it headed ? Because it is certainly not going to be enough in the future Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It depends how far in the future you are looking I have to say the feedback that we are having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National Day Nurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it is suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out Darren Millar AM: But they have raised concerns about the national living wage implications have not they as well ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Of course and I think it is incumbent on us as well to not— Darren Millar AM: So it is not fair to say that they have not raised concerns about the rate Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but what they are not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised Darren Millar AM: But they have suggested that in meetings— Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well of course in future any Minister any committee will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate as one element of the scheme appropriate to the current financial challenges for the sector and not least by the way as we try not only to develop the workforce but to develop the career pathways through this as well ? And I think that is the right discussion to be had live time as this is taken forward But at this moment in time we are not getting people saying within this part of the rollout that we need to adjust this amount Darren Millar AM: So have you forecasted for any adjustment in the rate going forward in terms of affordability of the project ? Because you have still got this £100 million price tag on it have not you ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Similar to the point that was raised with Hefin about Cardiff and Newport if we identify that the rate is not appropriate if it is— I do not think anybodys going to come back to us and say that it is too little But do bear in mind that it is above where the average England rate is even though there is this complex variability within the English rate that has caused some confusion there which is why the universal rate with us has been welcomed If we find as we pilot it or if we find because there are more expensive areas for it to be delivered in there needs to be adjustment then we will be back in front of the committee arguing why that needs to be the case Darren Millar AM: But that will not put the project at risk in terms of its finances ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No no We are still very confident looking forward on the best projections we have fed by the live input that is coming in from the pilot which will be fed again in the autumn—the Arad report coming forward—that we have not only the capacity to actually deliver this—challenging as this is we have the capacity to deliver it—but also that the funding that is available on our best estimate—the estimate we have stood by that broad ball park of that £100 million figure—it is deliverable within that But if it changes we will come back And if it changes I will have to be sitting down with my boss Vaughan Gething and with Mark Drakeford to argue the case on it But at this moment we have confidence and we have run the rule across this repeatedly But that rate combined with the other elements of this childcare offer—there is sufficient there allocated to actually deliver the whole rollout Mark Reckless AM: Minister as a parent who is been researching childcare options it is obvious to me that in Cardiff and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire costs are substantially higher than this and I have not been able to find anywhere that has a sixhour day for £27 which is implied by your rate Is not it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you are going to need a higher rate to make it work ? Is not that already obvious ? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Chair my biggest fear is a parent who is actually involved in this area already but having been one myself— Mark you may be right that is exactly why we are piloting it and that is why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £450 per hour rate Mark Reckless AM: But you are not piloting it in any of the highcost areas that I have referred to Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No We will be We are going to be Mark Reckless AM: When are you starting ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes So we are not missing any of these learning experiences and we know that— The reason we have gone for the other areas first by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we have done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales areas in north Wales areas around Welsh language provision areas in deep valleys understanding the cultural and the economic impacts So we have held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision But it is coming it is imminent and we will learn the lessons from it And do you know you may be right ? And if you are right that it is more expensive and we need a higher rate within those areas then we are going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee But let us go in and learn it first of all rather than assume it necessarily Lynne Neagle AM: Just before I bring David in on the issue that Hefin raised about the chargeable items your paper says that providers can charge up to £750 a day for food snacks transport and consumables such as nappies Now that is £3750 a week which is a lot of money for parents and I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that figure ? But also do you think there is a risk that providers who maybe are not charging at the moment may start charging because of any new pressures that arise because of this scheme ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I think they are the right areas to flag up and if I thought that was going to happen I would be concerned as we take this forward and design this scheme I think part of the evaluation from Arad will also show us that—whether or not within the pilot areas that we are already in which are quite diverse that is happening We are only one term into learning the lessons by the way but I would want to make sure that we design a scheme where we are not heaping on disadvantage or where there was exploitation of disadvantaged families So the early evaluation I think will give us good feedback on that I think also by the way that providers know that this is a collaborative effort to do this here It is not in their interests I have to say as the umbrella bodies or individual providers to see this as some way that they can unduly rake in additional income from this on the backs of poorer families This is about providing opportunities for all working families But especially I have to say the early evaluation that we have seen already suggests that the greatest proportion of those who are taking advantage of this scheme in the early parts—in the early evaluation—are those who are below the average working wage within in Wales That is by far the greatest number of people who are doing it and we do not want them then being priced out because of addons So there has to be some pragmatism I have to say and some open partnership working here with the sector and we do have that John Griffiths AM: I want to come back to the £450 rate but in terms of working with the sector briefly if I might Chair I just wonder Huw in terms of that £450 figure and understanding the sector in Wales to what extent are we talking about a market rate and to what extent are we talking about the increase in demand that will come from the scheme and how that relates to economies of scale and capacity ? Is it purely a market rate or is there a conversation with the sector in terms of the benefits that will come from this scheme and how they should be recognised in terms of setting the rate ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: This has been a very open dialogue with the sector around affordability around the hourly rate and around what might happen in future as well This is not a pure hard datadriven analysis that says Here we have calculated everything and this is the rate that will satisfy it because we recognise that there is great diversity in provision out there and we also recognise that things will change over time It is not only the geographical diversity—it is the diversity of the sector itself I think we need to as we take this scheme forward and look at the full rollout continue in that very open dialogue with the sector not about what is purely a marketdriven amount but actually what is also affordable for the Welsh Government within the constraints that we have Just to flag up one issue it is right that we are focusing on those elements that are not included within it to some extent as well and the effect of that on more disadvantaged families but that has to be balanced with the pocket of affordability for this scheme as well Let me give you a clear illustration : some of our calculations have suggested that if we included free food within this offer as well it would add something like in the region of 50p to that £450 rate That would have at this moment impacts on the affordability of this and the rollout of it I would need to be going back to my seniors and arguing the case now ? But it is that open dialogue with the sector that says There is one thing about what you are saying you demand as a market there is another thing about what we are saying that we have affordability from taxpayers money to actually put into this They also understand John that as well as an enabling policy—and we are seeing the evidence by the way I can cite it—of individuals who are being helped into more flexible options to get back into work increase their hours and so on this is also about building capacity in a fundamental foundation sector that is in every single part of Wales The stuff that is being debated ad nauseam here within the Assembly about foundational sectors— The sector itself understands that if we boost the childcare offer in all its diversity including by the way not just the independent sector but social enterprises and thirdsector organisations such as exist in Neath and elsewhere that I was involved in 20 or 30odd years ago setting up—that has an economic impact that goes beyond that immediate family who are receiving the provision to the wider communities as well They know that They know there is job creation within this and there is economic impact for that So it is an open dialogue on what the rate should be rather than purely Our wonks have crunched the numbers and we have come up with £450 Lynne Neagle AM: David you had a question on the pilots David Rees AM: Yes just to finish that section off if I may Chair Before I go to my question I want to come back to Mark Recklesss question and the answer you gave I got the impression that if there is a need to look at different rates because of the higherend areas you may therefore have different sets of rates and not a universal rate Is that also on the cards ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: David it is possible I think our preference would be I have to say to stick with the universal rate because we know it is— There is real simplicity and it is been welcomed in the sector But the sector also are quite pragmatic about this One of the defining hallmarks of the way that we have taken this scheme forward is learning in live time as we pilot and expand the pilots into different areas and different types of provision If we learn lessons from that that suggest we need to come back and look at a differential in moreexpensivetoprovide areas then we will have to look at that but there might be other ways of splicing it But first of all I think we have to go in and see how does this work We might find Mark we might find David that we go in and when everything is tallied up the £450 per hour works in supporting provision there David Rees AM: In your answer to John you talked about affordability which I totally understand If I can now remind you : I do not remember the word affordability coming in the manifesto pledge of the Government It was we will offer childcare facilities So I just want to put a reminder to you there Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ministers always look at affordability","In this part, the meeting talked about the affordability of £4.50 amount (the universal amount) and add-ups for some cases. The group separately discussed the situation of families of different incomes levels and different areas." "Hefin David AM: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £450 in those areas compared to say the Cynon valley ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We can not anticipate it yet Hefin but that is exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works We are reasonably confident that the £450— We are reasonably assured by the feedback that we are having that the £450 might work as a universal amount But if we learn when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport that there needs to be some variation we can look at that because we are not doing a bigbang approach So that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it but at the moment I have to say the £450 amount has been welcomed—it is appropriate You touched on the other aspect though of the wider aspects of beyond the £450 because the £450 does not cover everything The £450 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it does not cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this Now we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are I have to say this has not been ivorytower stuff it is been in discussion with the providers but also parents One : parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I am used to this as a parent myself although mine are older now—Mr IrrancaDavies when you sign on just to be aware if we do take your kids down to St Fagans there is going to be a little bit of a charge for that and so on Hefin David AM: That is fair enough but it would be the lowestincome working families who would be most unduly affected by that because the higher income families would be able to afford those addons the lower income ones will not Is not that a concern ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: If money was absolutely no object then I think you would be looking at quite a different offer but it has to be affordable within what we have got as well The fact that parents including those who are on lower incomes are used to currently discriminating between providers not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well where very often schools now will say We are doing something extra— Hefin David AM: That may be the case but it is not fair is it ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: In a pure argument about equity and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—You can do what you want—I think you would be looking at a very different approach But within what we have I think this works very very well indeed because it is very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions It says Here you have 10 hours of the foundation education offer You have the additional hours here provided with the childcare offer But within those additional hours you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says `` Within that we provide everything '' you may be with a provider that says `` Well actually we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips but it is up to you if you want to come and here is the additional cost— '' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically in terms of what we can do with this offer this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we are not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage In a total fairness argument would you make it universal and with no additional charges ? Well possibly you would But we work within the realistic—","Huw Irranca-Davies thought £4.50amount was an appropriate and universal amount. As for the add-ons, even low-income families could discriminate between providers. Also, the team would be substantially transparent thus parents can make the decisions." "Mark Reckless AM: Minister as a parent who is been researching childcare options it is obvious to me that in Cardiff and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire costs are substantially higher than this and I have not been able to find anywhere that has a sixhour day for £27 which is implied by your rate Is not it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you are going to need a higher rate to make it work ? Is not that already obvious ? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Chair my biggest fear is a parent who is actually involved in this area already but having been one myself— Mark you may be right that is exactly why we are piloting it and that is why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £450 per hour rate Mark Reckless AM: But you are not piloting it in any of the highcost areas that I have referred to Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No We will be We are going to be Mark Reckless AM: When are you starting ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes So we are not missing any of these learning experiences and we know that— The reason we have gone for the other areas first by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we have done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales areas in north Wales areas around Welsh language provision areas in deep valleys understanding the cultural and the economic impacts So we have held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision But it is coming it is imminent and we will learn the lessons from it And do you know you may be right ? And if you are right that it is more expensive and we need a higher rate within those areas then we are going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee But let us go in and learn it first of all rather than assume it necessarily","New pilots in Cardiff and Newport would start in September. This was to learn the experiences of the high-cost areas. If it was shown that the rate in these areas was more expensive, then the team would come back and discuss it with the committee. But Huw Irranca-Davies emphasized that the project should start first, rather than assuming a higher rate necessary." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: So moving on then to the impact on the child and this whole question around school readiness of course which is an important one to address Clearly one of the main outcomes of this policy will be the academic performance of children hopefully later on in life I want to come back to this point that the Childrens Commissioner for Wales and others have raised : the concern that actually the most disadvantaged—those from workless households—are being excluded from this policy Is not there therefore a risk that they will be left even further behind ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I have had long detailed and positive discussions with the childrens commissioner on this and I know the childrens commissioner would want a more universal offer but I make two points on that : one is that was not what the commitment in the manifesto was and it is not the offer that is being taken forward now It is a different thing a universal offer and there are issues around that with complexity and also affordability But it is not the offer that we took forward into Government this is what we are taking forward But it is interesting in terms of that aspect of families then who lose out I would say two significant things on it : one is this does not stand alone purely as 30 hours of childcare Within this there are 10 hours of the foundation years educational input which is there for everybody But before that particularly for those disadvantaged families before we even get to that stage you have schemes such as Flying Start and I know this committee has looked in detail at Flying Start and has said that it would like to see it rolled out everywhere If I had all the money under the sun I would really do that Chair I would really do it But I do not have all the money under the sun Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you do have the ability to target the money Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but the fact that Flying Start we know is leading to those outcomes where those children in quite challenged circumstances very often are more ready to step up to the foundation year are more ready then to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together So there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family by the way within this offer let alone the childcare That does not mean that everybodys excluded but it does mean yes that this offer is focused on working parents And we do not think that that is a bad thing In fact it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags which is I can not afford to go back to work because I can not afford the childcare Do not tell me to go back to work I can not afford it Llyr Gruffydd AM: The majority of disadvantaged children do not live in Flying Start areas do they ? So there is a missing cohort there that can not access one or the other and the school readiness is growing and really are we focusing our resources in the right place here ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well yes in terms of this scheme but it does not sit alone as this scheme—it is the wider plethora of I have to say progressive and advanced initiatives that we have in Wales that take different forms It is not only Flying Start that provides that other support for parents and readiness not only for the parents and for their children but also the support into work So if for example you look at the Parents Childcare and Employment programme which is separate from this there is support there for every parent in terms of helping them get supported into work from disadvantaged families If you look at the support for the children we have got the 10 hours that sits within the sphere of the education but we have also got all the other family intervention programmes that help with socialisation education and so on and so forth If you look at this solely on its own and say Well there is nothing else there the rest of Wales is a desert and there is no support for parents for getting parents back into work or for those parents who are not seeking to go back into work but also need the support and for their children in education I would be worried But actually this fits as part of the jigsaw that we have in Wales where I think we are well ahead of the other nations Yes we could do more and I always say Llyr I always say Chair that if I had—I do not have a chequebook at all because it is not in my gift—if I had a blank cheque I would do a lot more but we do not But what we can do is get the right schemes in place and if this helps drive more choices for working parents including by the way— There are niceties within this as well it does not have to be that both parents are working You could have a parent who is on incapacity benefit You could have a parent who is a registered carer They would qualify for the scheme Those will be some of those most disadvantaged families that we both have those concerns about So there is some flexibility within this scheme as well to deal with some of those disadvantaged families Darren Millar AM: I am surprised by the answer there particularly given that one of the ambitions of the Government is to close this attainment later in life when schoolchildren get to their examinations when they are 16 years old Yet this appears to be driving a bigger wedge in terms of development which could of course lead to a perverse outcome later on in life but I do not want to ask you about that If I can just very quickly ask you : has consideration been given to making free childcare available to parents where they are in 16 hours or more of education each week ? So they may not be entering the labour market but of course one of those barriers to them getting back into the labour market could well be their education so what arrangements are in place there ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Darren we have considered it and we have not included it within the scheme because this is designed to enable parents to go into work not into training to enable them to get into work There are other forms of support available for parents in terms of college and so on and so forth but it is not this scheme Darren Millar AM: But it is not prescribed support is it ? You know it is not universally available to people who might be wanting to get back into the labour market over that barrier You must have done some costings then if you have considered it and you must have tried to identify numbers Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I am looking to my left and my right Darren Millar AM: So you have not considered it that much have you ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We have actually considered— We consider it from the point of What is this scheme set up to do ? It is very clear When we ran in the manifesto on this point— Darren Millar AM: I understand that I do not want you to repeat yourself because I know we are against the clock But very specifically when you say you have considered it what you mean is you thought about it but you have not costed it you have not identified the numbers that might be involved— And therefore you have not considered whether it might be affordable in addition to the policy objective that this is trying to meet Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No Darren you are right : we have not considered affordability because we have considered it on first principles to do with what this offer is trying to do It does not fit within the offer so as such why would we do the costings ? Darren Millar AM: Perhaps I can frame my question in another way Are you prepared to consider it if you are able to identify the numbers and potential cost ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ah right We would be interested in your thoughts as a committee but it does not actually fit within the first principles of what the scheme is designed to do Darren can I just pick up on your point in case you misinterpreted what I was saying to Llyr ? I drew attention in my answer to Llyr to schemes such as the PaCE scheme In Gwynedd one of our pilot areas they are combining the Team Around the Family with this childcare offer So what they are doing is wrapping the support around It is not the case as you have suggested then that there is somehow more disadvantage being heaped on other families What this does is tie in in those pilot areas with the existing provision and that is the way we want to see it work So I would not want you to be under any misapprehension that this makes conditions worse for families Those families who have a registered carer in them where one parent works and those families who have somebody on incapacity benefit will qualify for the scheme All families will qualify for the 10 hours of education In Gwynedd they are wrapping the Team Around the Family with this offer— Darren Millar AM: But on the other hand Minister you have also suggested that this will accelerate child development for those kids who are able to access it and yet not all kids will be able to access it particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds Huw Irranca-Davies AM: But all children can access the 10 hours and they can access Flying Start— Darren Millar AM: But 10 hours is very different to 30 hours is it not ? Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but they can access Flying Start or they can access the Team Around the Family— Darren Millar AM: If they are in a Flying Start area Huw Irranca-Davies AM: —or they can be in a childrens zone area or they can— Darren Millar AM: If they are in those areas Lynne Neagle AM: Right I have got John and then David and the questions and answers are going to have to be brief please John Griffiths AM: Yes certainly Chair In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy Huw I would be interested in what you would have to say about the quality of childcare We are talking a lot about quantity but obviously we want to up quality and that is recognised by Welsh Government They have talked about increasing the qualifications within the workforce and the quality I just wonder how that sits within the £450 because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place Huw Irranca-Davies AM: John you are absolutely right and two things on that : I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sectorrun childcare provision with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other and I asked the point about the integration curiously but what they were doing was— Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we would want to see : not only very wellqualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the childminding but the wider child development aspects— So it was hard to differentiate in some ways what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding and including the nutritional stuff and all of that Now that is the model we need to see and the £450 seems to work at the moment for that It will be interesting as we discussed previously as it goes forward— We need to look at whether that works going forward But the quality I think is key and that is why we are focused very much on registered inspected providers as opposed to every Tom Dick and Harriet John Griffiths AM: If we want to increase salary levels though which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality then obviously that might impact on the £450 rate Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes indeed and we are cognisant— It is interesting that we focus on whether the £450 is affordable but the £450—you know we are having an interesting discussion internally about how that £450 offer per hour sits alongside others such as the foundation phase offer and it is more generous So I think it is : how do we align as time goes by the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff ? Now we are doing some fascinating work that I think I have referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely Now this is an evolving piece of work but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that How do you make sure that every offer that is Governmentfunded works on child development ? It is not simply childcare","This part talked about the impact on children and the school readiness issue. To be precise, the group had discussed disadvantaged families' problems, free education, the potential numbers and cost, and eventually the feasibility of the general rate." "Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes but the fact that Flying Start we know is leading to those outcomes where those children in quite challenged circumstances very often are more ready to step up to the foundation year are more ready then to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together So there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family by the way within this offer let alone the childcare That does not mean that everybodys excluded but it does mean yes that this offer is focused on working parents And we do not think that that is a bad thing In fact it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags which is I can not afford to go back to work because I can not afford the childcare Do not tell me to go back to work I can not afford it Llyr Gruffydd AM: The majority of disadvantaged children do not live in Flying Start areas do they ?","Huw Irranca-Davies stated that Flying Start helped disadvantaged children to step up to the foundation year and then step through into mainstream education in later years. In the scheme, there were 10 hours of education provision for every family. However, Huw Irranca-Davies acknowledged that the majority of disadvantaged children don't line up in Flying Start areas." "John Griffiths AM: Yes certainly Chair In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy Huw I would be interested in what you would have to say about the quality of childcare We are talking a lot about quantity but obviously we want to up quality and that is recognised by Welsh Government They have talked about increasing the qualifications within the workforce and the quality I just wonder how that sits within the £450 because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place Huw Irranca-Davies AM: John you are absolutely right and two things on that : I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sectorrun childcare provision with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other and I asked the point about the integration curiously but what they were doing was— Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we would want to see : not only very wellqualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the childminding but the wider child development aspects— So it was hard to differentiate in some ways what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding and including the nutritional stuff and all of that Now that is the model we need to see and the £450 seems to work at the moment for that It will be interesting as we discussed previously as it goes forward— We need to look at whether that works going forward But the quality I think is key and that is why we are focused very much on registered inspected providers as opposed to every Tom Dick and Harriet John Griffiths AM: If we want to increase salary levels though which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality then obviously that might impact on the £450 rate Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes indeed and we are cognisant— It is interesting that we focus on whether the £450 is affordable but the £450—you know we are having an interesting discussion internally about how that £450 offer per hour sits alongside others such as the foundation phase offer and it is more generous So I think it is : how do we align as time goes by the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff ? Now we are doing some fascinating work that I think I have referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely Now this is an evolving piece of work but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that How do you make sure that every offer that is Governmentfunded works on child development ? It is not simply childcare",Huw Irranca-Davies said the situation in the Valleys (model) was an example of what the team would like to see. This proved that the £4.50 seemed to work. "User Interface: It is it is it is yellow And this is rubber And and and this too The And the rest is hard plastic And We we had some We had a new idea that that this can can be turned inside And then it covers the these buttons And then you can still use the the power button and the mute and the the joystick So you can still operate all the things Because you do not always use the menu And then it can break Big buttons And everything is blue except the power button And the mute Of and the mute and the the other button Channel higher channel button Project Manager: And the joystick is for the volume and the channels Industrial Designer: Up is channel up Down is channel down To the right is volume up To the left is volume down Project Manager: so if joystick and LCD What is the RR d User Interface: RRs the l the the the the company logo Marketing: That is on the rub rubber part User Interface: yes Yes That is about here Project Manager: So what they say on the side is put fashion there Yes It is good So that is it That is prototype","The color of the prototype was yellow and the material was half rubber and half plastic with a company logo. Moreover, it could be curved inside to cover the buttons which were big and blue except the power button. Besides, both the button and joystick could switch the device off and the joystick was especially designed to control the channel and volume to make the device more fashionable. The team agreed that it was overall a good design." Marketing: That is That can be none we going to do the evaluation now together But I have a introduction how it works So it will come up Uhoh Well we I have thinked a few evaluation criterias based on our marketing strategy on the latest trends on user preferences we have a seven point scale from true as well To false seven ? And on base of each c criteria we need to give a rating We can Well it look like this But we going to do it here they said So you hope found out how to do it with a Word document well we have the Word document You So we open up that blank here Think I can what this just an example So this not very important But if I can get a number in here Well we can not do that so you have to think of it as the remote control is techno technologically innovative and then we have to agree on the rating together And in the end we will c count an average of all rating The first on each item,"Marketing wrote down a few evaluation criteria, based on previous marketing strategy, on the latest trends, and on user preferences. There was a seven-point scale rating for each criterion. The team would give comments to each feature listed and agree on the final rating." "Project Manager: What do you think ? Marketing: I think it is well technologically using it is not it does not contain many new features Only the LCD So it I think I will give it a a four Industrial Designer: I think the scrollbutton is something also new What not anoth not a lot of a lot of remote controls have I think technologically I will give it an seven Si six six Marketing: So now i I think you see it its statement And you true or false Industrial Designer: Oh I will I will give it a t a two Marketing: And true is one So Project Manager: Me too So it is a three Marketing: Kay well It is a one The first item So the second item this product is for all sorts of customers Well it is a statement which I disagree with because we really aim at at young market and I think the way it looked c totally in yellow it is not really aimed for all customers It does not look like that Project Manager: Yes it is for the younger g group So it is half half of the people User Interface: but it is it is Project Manager: So I think it is four User Interface: I mean it still has l large buttons and not m many buttons So I mean the colours are for young people Project Manager: Yes So I think it is four Industrial Designer: Maybe version three point O has other colours Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics Marketing: That is the motto of our company well do we do this with this product ? I I think if we do this as it is c it is really orientates on the design so I would give it a two Industrial Designer: Me too a two because only the battery is not techin technologically high standard But the rest of it is So I think a two Project Manager: It is not fashion it is new It must be a fashion But it is not Industrial Designer: It it will be fashion Project Manager: Yes It w If it is not a fashion we can put it in it So it must be a fashion I think it is a five User Interface: Then make it th three Marketing: Yes I will think of that too Project Manager: I use my feet though Industrial Designer: Oh we will wait outside Marketing: The next element is the product looks good Well personally I do not prefer a remote control that is fully in yellow So I would give this a five Industrial Designer: I give it a one User Interface: Yes a one I like it Project Manager: Well I say three So counting then is two and a half Marketing: We have to do our So well we going to do the next part yep the next statement It has not too much buttons I I have said is not because a low number is better And in the end we calculate an average So that is why it is a negative in it well this one of our aims not have too much buttons So did we do that ? Well if we go to this fashion I We still have caused a lot of buttons for the numbers But you can you can go for that And that way you do not have a lot of buttons over So I would give this a two One but where where is the ? Project Manager: Next six It does not get lost easily Marketing: So did we implement the sound ? Project Manager: No we did not So but can it get lost if it is such a thing ? I do not think so Yes Not a not a normal shapes So Industrial Designer: It will not get between the pillows on the couch Project Manager: No It will not get lost Marketing: well we aimed for the younger market did we achieve that I think with the way it looks and it is designed I will give it a two Project Manager: That was our target Two Right There is a fancy lookandfeel Marketing: yes That that was one of the most important things that Trendwatch said I did not say it in my presentation But well does it have that ? I would say yes So Well let us also give this a two T Industrial Designer: I gave this a one because of the rubber It feels soft it looks like a l b a bit like a joystick It is f very fancy trendy Project Manager: I say a two It is a a bit personal If it is fancy So I think s two is better Marketing: And then the last one I could think of it goes with the latest trends Project Manager: No it is new Innovation Marketing: If we looked at the latest trends for the younger people and they ate fruit and vegetables well it has a a nice colour well compared to food but we did not We did not paint any fruit and vegetable on it for something like that So I would did not give this a one or two I We will go for a three Industrial Designer: I go for two because the the shapes are still round the latest trends are soft things you know like I said in my presentation But the the colours are basic like yellow red blue Something what also younger people want It is also a trend so I will give it a two","The team agreed that only the scroll button and the LCD were new items for a remote control. The color of the device was doubted but Marketing argued that since the product aimed at the young market, the case looked good in pure yellow. Besides, the rubber material felt soft, making the device look and feel nice. However, the team thought that there were too many buttons, which did not align with the original idea." "Project Manager: So now we have a product Very happy But is it cheap enough ? so if I will have a look We have a battery One battery one battery Electronics Advanced chip it is the most advanced Chiponprint We have that one Industrial Designer: Well it is the most advanced Project Manager: We have the simple regular and advanced We have the adva advanced Kay so uncurved or flat Nope Single curved or double curved ? We have double curved Then we have plastic wood rubber we have half rubber half plastic No titanium Special colour Yes yellow Interface pushbutton Scrollwheel integrated scrollwheel push pushbutton or LCD display So we have the LCD We have two scrollwheels ? Or one ? And it is not really a s it is this one Now button supplement Special colour We already that is the from the for the buttons The buttons are regular colour So then then then then then then then Then Industrial Designer: We are not going to make it Project Manager: no It is too expensive So we have to change something Industrial Designer: What what are the costs ? Project Manager: well when we lose one scrollwheel it is Because we can not lose the battery We can not lose the advanced chip We can not lose the double curve We have rubber special colour Industrial Designer: I do not think it is a very special colour Project Manager: No it is Sorry ? Industrial Designer: Yellow ? is it a special colour ? Marketing: I have For a remote control I think it is If we would have normal buttons instead of the joystick For up down left right Project Manager: then we lose two Euros Then we have thirteen Euros Half a Euro too much Exactly the special colours So Industrial Designer: And what if we use only one sort of just only plastic or only rubber ? Project Manager: So I do not think that is good Mm I think we have to keep the LCD If Industrial Designer: If we change the joyst the joystick thing into a button up button down button right button left Project Manager: Yes Then it is only thirteen Euros Industrial Designer: And then we will lose fifty cent in what ? Project Manager: So Then you have Or you have to cut this off Then it is not good anymore So wait I will have a look We Industrial Designer: And if you say it is just a r normal colour it is a normal colour wh No one will see it Normal colour and the the joystick away and put the button up button down right left And it is twelve Euros I think Project Manager: One minute please Is it maximum it is normal colour But if you lose the joystick it is still an advanced chip ? Or it is then a regular ? Marketing: The advanced chip was for the LCD was not it ? Project Manager: So the advanced is for the LCD and the regular for the joystick And what if we lose the LCD ? Industrial Designer: If we lose the LCD then we have an regular chip and no LCD Project Manager: regular chip But Is it a good design ? Industrial Designer: Then you will have to m see the menu on the television And you do not have the LCD So the TVs has to have to be uptodate Marketing: If we have the n no buttons If we have we have not a joystick but buttons we would have we have thirteen Euros ? And then we move the the colour What will that be ? Project Manager: so no joystick Oh no but we then we get pushbuttons from half a Euro Industrial Designer: then it is twelve Euro fifty then it is Project Manager: yes yes yes yes No joystick Pushbuttons No special colour Twelve and a half Euros Then it is So we have to change that a little bit And you can not use the red and green button Because if you give them a s colour you have to pay point two Euros Industrial Designer: So all the buttons has to have to be the same colour But then the print on it will g change it Make it for everybody to see what button it is l How you call it ? Project Manager: So Well Now we have to change that but that is Rubber What is the normal colour ? Industrial Designer: Oh well that is clear Project Manager: Where is ? So now it is Industrial Designer: And the joystick away And its buttons Project Manager: It is But then it will be just that ones Marketing: still he waited at the","In terms of the material used on the device, the team decided to use only one material, either rubber or plastic instead of both or titanium. Moreover, the team agreed to discard the joystick but keep the LCD and advance chips,to make it still favored by the young market. Lastly, a normal color would be incorporated instead of a special color to decrease the cost by at least half Euro." "Project Manager: Now project eva evaluation Well What do you think of it ? Industrial Designer: process Went good I think the creativity was good enough We have a gun instead of a remote control leadership you were the project project manager and had the final vote So that was clear Teamwork Everybody has something to say about it And no o only the the drawing was very difficult But nah New ideas found Nope User Interface: well the same I I espe I especially liked the the means the the SMARTboard and it It brings up new ideas when you work with with it Marketing: I think you have to compare it to if you would have a normal normal project without laptops and without these devices I think Well the laptops if you have them out front of you you sometimes looking at that instead of the presentation well the drawboard well you can draw things But it not really going very convenient maybe it will be easier if you have a smaller monitor and you would also see there And with a normal mouse and the project I agree on what was said mainly but you always have that some people are talking more than others And maybe is then the task of the the project manager to also ask more to the people less talking To tell their opinion Project Manager: Well what do I have to say I think it was good Not too many discussions So it is good for the speed So I think we are ready Good price Evaluation ready Ready","The team thought they had a really great team work experience. Everyone had put efforts into the process and gave opinions to design a good remote control. Also, the project manager showed good leadership to control the overall process." "Project Manager: Excellent So I sent you the agenda it was on the in the project documents I do not know if you got a chance to just have a look at it Anyway it is the meetings going to follow more or less the same structure as last time so we will go round each of you in turn and you can give your presentations on what you have been up to and at the end of that we need to discuss what you have come up with so that we can make a decision on the key remote control concepts so that is we need to know about the components properties materials the user interface and any trends that the Marketing Expert has been watching do you want to start again ? we have got forty minutes Industrial Designer: so I have not made a PowerPoint presentation Project Manager: You have not made a PowerPoint Industrial Designer: I I thought I will use the whiteboard instead Project Manager: Let us hope the pen holds out Industrial Designer: so basically I will start off by I thought I will use the whiteboard because we have so many different options and what we can do is that we can start rubbing off the options that we do not require and putting in the options that are m or highlighting or underlining them or something like that so I will start again with a brief introduction to connect that anyway brief introduction to the insides of a remote control and then we can probably discuss the various components so w what you see here is so this is the outside of the remote right ? If you open it you have a circuit board here right and this is the chip that I was talking about last time This basically sends information to a tr transistor here which then sends the information to an LED device here If you flip the printed circuit board and this is th the most important point here everything else is kind of so if you flip the circuit board this is what it looks like So you see for example a particular button attaches to a particular place on the PCB and on pressing this button I a circuit completes the information goes to the chip which is somewhere here and the chip that tra then translates the code into an infra infrared radiation which goes goes out through there So the important point that I read over the website was that the configurations of these printed circuit circuit boards are quite cheap to make you can ge get them printed as you want to so w we can have a configuration irrespective of the cost the way we want to have Right ? So that is the important point here so these are the different options that we have So the batteries I will start with the battery right ? So they can be simple which is like the normal batteries in our the cells ? thes these are the kind different kind of batteries that the company makes right ? So And dynamos Marketing: Does that mean like a windup one ? Industrial Designer: So I do not know if even if you want to consider this but these are the different things that the company makes so th they will they will since they will come internally from the company they will be eas cheaper all these options So the third one is the kinetic energy ones Marketing: You could make the hand dynamo into an exercise bike and then people could exercise whilst watching TV and stop worrying about the whole RSI from the remote thing because that is just Industrial Designer: it is a good option User Interface: So what was what was this k ka Industrial Designer: The the kinetic energy one is that e they are usually modern watches since our hand keeps moving it keeps the watch ticking But I do not know i if it is a good idea for a remote control because it will just lie there for a long while sometimes Project Manager: Mmhmm For a remote because you Industrial Designer: But as soon as you pick it up it moves and then again it re recharges or something And the fourth option is the solar cells which are also made by the company Environment friendly so I will list things and then we can come back and discuss what what we think from everybodys perspective There are different cases that can be provided They can be basically the shape of the cases they can be flat they can be curved with onesided curved and one side flat and they can be curved with on both the sides These are the three options right ? User Interface: you mean this would be like the the overall shape of the remote control Industrial Designer: would it be flat on both the sides would be curved from one side or whatever there were different kind of supplements available like it can be in plastic rubber wood or titanium right ? Marketing: Did you say wool ? you will understand why when we get to my presenta Industrial Designer: so we can use even a certain titanium is also used in the company to make some space design equipment so it is kind of it will be probably nicer to use because it relates to the overall image of the company but it can not be used on a double curved surface If we choose this we can not use titanium For for these two we can use titanium wood rubber or plastic the interface options now So we can have pushbuttons like most remotes do and our company is an expert in making pushbuttons Ooh we can have scroll wheels like the ones on mouse pointers Marketing: Sony Ericsson mobile phones has it Industrial Designer: So and they have they can even have an an integrated pushbutton inside the scrolling thing The scroll plus push So this is something that has been recently developed by the company in the last decade so not too recent And LCDs we can have LCDs So these two are recent and and this is q quite old The various electronic options are so th this concerns firs first of all the the chips I I showed you at so there is there is a chip behind this one right ? The PCB is inexpensive so we can put put in whatever we want but the various integrated circuit options are we have either a simple one or a regular or advanced And the price goes up as we go down obviously so the good thing about wh wh why why we would want to use advanced you why we might want to use advanced is that LCDs can only come with the advanced chip the we need regular or advanced for scroll wheels Right ? and the chip basically includes the infra infrared sender besides this in electr under electronics also the company has started making a sample sender which is did not explained what i what it was but I am guessing that so they have a sample sender and a sample speaker So I am guessing that the sample speaker is probably something like you know as soon as you press a button it it mm give gives you feedback one five or whatever on and I do not know whether sample sender sender has to do something with voice recognition or not but anyway So these are the different options that we have so th that is that is basically now now I think that we can integrate you know the user interface and the marketing things in that keep taking out things from this and underlining things that are important Project Manager: Mmhmm Excellent Do you want to stay somewhere near the board so that if we need to you can sit down but just we might need you to leap up What are you PowerPoint or Do you think these pens can give you cancer of the hand ? Some sort of radiation ? Marketing: No it is got its little camera in there plug it in Industrial Designer: it should should do it User Interface: to be honest actually I mentioned some some of the things which which could fit on the on the this talk this time I m I mentioned them already in the previous talk So this time I might not have them on the slides but I I can just mention them aw again So I thought I would also include the definition of user interface so it is the aspects of a of of a computer system or programme which can be seen by the user and and which the mechanisms that the user uses to control its operation and input data So this would p includes things like shape and size and buttons and voice recognition as well and colour and so on the method I employed this time was a again having a look to related products and mainly on the internet and then analyse them from the point of view of user fen friendliness and also whether their appearance was was pleasant and then this this this can help us to decide which features we want to incorporate in our product So some findings So in in the case of many user interfaces they are just so full of buttons that it is actually hard to find the ones you you really want to use and and it is just confusing it takes y know time to learn and I thought I would just quickly show some of them that I found some of them are here well the picture is not very clear but as you can see there are actu oi oh oh oh sorry for that S go back Ah no please so they are quite big and have many many buttons Actually of the of all these I personally p prefer this one because it is it is the smallest and and with with least with the smallest number of buttons as well And I would say even the appearance of some of them is kind of not so nice So let us carry on with this So o other findings some new things used some of them were mentioned already by our Technical Designer Our own company has developed a new in user interface wait no this is not the one there is a we can include voice recognition and it allows i it is possible to record eighty different voice samples on it so this this one was already mentioned the LC display s another new development is a scroll button which was also th also already mentioned And our own manufacturing division ha has designed a new programmable speech mm sorry speaker unit I guess it is it should be and this means that once it it it comes together with a voice recognition but it is once once the mm gadget recognises the voice of the speaker there can be a preprogrammed answer for example you can pick up the remote control and say something to it like hello and it says some hello and your name or whatever So I mean this is also one of the n dev new developments which we might consider if we wanted to include Industrial Designer: sorry can you go back for a second ? are you sure wha what this means a spinning wheel with the LC display ? oh are th Project Manager: It is like the like you said no ? The scroll scroll wheel User Interface: No no the scroll button is a different thing I I have a picture if you just a moment I will I will show you I was not completely sure myself but I think it is just like it is it is a wheel it is like not separate buttons Marketing: Oh it is like the iPod User Interface: But I am I am not really sure whether whether you can really turn it round it is like you press this or this or Industrial Designer: it is the iPod kind of Marketing: It is like it is like where you you know how you have your your mouse and y you go round and i it is kind of like that and you spin round Industrial Designer: So instead of going down you just spin Marketing: and it is a bit weird at first but it is actually very like fast I like the the wheels that click on the side you you get them much slower so it is quite good if you like searching quite a lot of stuff Do you know if you are lookin if you are th scrolling through the A to Z of your music and you are looking for something at T then it is a lot faster than the wheel but you have got a lot less control over it Industrial Designer: Right So maybe I should include that here as well User Interface: and the personal preferences are pretty much the same as as as last time It it has to be small simple we decided to include voice recognition so to have the standard major buttons like on off ch the channels and and then volume and then the rest would be a menu on the screen and I I also thought if we want to keep it small and nice and actually I I quite like the idea of a scroll a scrolling button I thought it could be for for voice like I do not know it mm like on a i like it used to be on Walkmans or something There is I think there is no reason why we could not use something like this for for the remote control So that is that is it Project Manager: Excellent straight to trends and then we can discuss it all at once Marketing: I have put the copy of the presentation in the Project Manager: Excellent If you two could both do that as well in case we need to refer to it Marketing: Fabulous cool so what I did was to search the internet to come up with market trends and you know what users are going to be wanting in the the near future Right Now the first aspect is apparently twice as important as the second aspect which is twice as important as the third a aspect So I mean the the easy to use thing is fairly low down on the which I think given the target group is what you would expect really you know people want something new something technologically innovative and different so the whole idea with the LCDs and the spinning and the colours and the voice recognition is quite like quite the thing to go for And it wants to look fancy fancy look and feel Industrial Designer: So maybe as you are discussing things is it if we just keep highlighting things here ? Right So mm so it Project Manager: That is over on the interface if if you could put Industrial Designer: so probably voice recognition is is kind of important right ? Project Manager: And maybe the LCD and spinning Industrial Designer: I I have a point about LCD Project Manager: so that means we need an advanced thing Industrial Designer: I do not know if it is the right point to take it up W LCDs are basically for feedback right to the user who is pressing buttons and the feedback can come through television itself so do we need an LCD on the remote ? Marketing: Depends how fast your television runs really do not do not you think ? I mean we have got one of those Telewest boxes and you put the number in the remote and then you wait and then it goes to the TV and then you wait and then it comes so i it actually takes quite a long time And if you get the number in wrong then it is a bit of a pain so I think you know a screen on the remote would probably cut down your time on that But like remotes do tend to get f thrown about a bit Project Manager: It it is also quite nice though to to have something here so you do not interrupt the picture on the screen so if you are watching something Industrial Designer: That is true that is also Marketing: And i it would be like I mean if you could make it integrate with the TV then it could come up with new information about what is on and you could just see that on the remote rather than Project Manager: Rather than having to interrupt your viewing pleasure Marketing: But I think maybe a way to do it would be a similar way to how you have your mobile phone you know like you have the slidey ones and you have the flippy ones and then the screens protected so it does not actually get scratched So you can have like what looks like a normal remote control you know or like a minimalist remote control So you got your buttons one to nine your on and off and your volume on that and then if you want to mess about with it you flip it open and Project Manager: And then you can flip it open Industrial Designer: So now we seem to have a consensus that LCDs are definitely the way to go because of style and Marketing: so that kind of decides your whole chip thing Industrial Designer: You you agree ? Maarika ? Marketing: Cool apparently fruit and vegetables will be providing inspiration Sorry I discovered clip art so these will be an important feature for clothes shoes and furniture So I mean I am taking this to mean you know curviness Do you know ? Because you do not tend to get flat vegetables You know ? bit of asymmetry and stuff But that would be a good way to to get in the whole RSI issue in there because I mean if you think most people use the remote control with their right hand ha right hands so you want to you curve it so that it is suitable for use with the right hand I am not quite sure about the relevance of material will be spongy Project Manager: Something a bit squishy and Marketing: but I mean y you have to User Interface: So it could be like a rubbery Industrial Designer: but there is a problem that I forgot to discuss with the with using Marketing: Well I suppose you would not get a remote an electric shock off your remote control if it was made of rubber Project Manager: and it would help if you drop it it protects it as well Industrial Designer: So if if we use latex cases they will not allow us to use solar cells as an energy source that is the constraint so we could use titanium wood or plastic or Project Manager: Or if we want to use the the latex then we have to go with one of the other power things Marketing: If it is made of rubber you could get the kinetic energy fairly easily there you could just bounce it up and down Industrial Designer: tap it on the desk Project Manager: You can have it as like a little ball to bounce that flips open Industrial Designer: Mm So probably double curved surface is the way to go Or or curved at one end and flat on the top because I I am not sure if it is flat on both both the sides then ho how much easy would it be to reach for buttons etcetera Marketing: You have to have a certain element of flatness I think It it depends on the whole ergonomics of it you know it is like how you put your hands so y it is the least movement basically Industrial Designer: singe single side curved or double side curved does not say too much does it ? Marketing: No I d I do not think it makes a lot of difference I I have one of those s slidey phones and I mean the back is essentially straight but it is curvy so Besides you have four sides to a thing so I mean does curved one side mean one side is straight and you know curved two sides means the whole thing is just a big curvy p thing ? Industrial Designer: Right Di now did it say anywhere in your research material about this sliding stuff because according to the information that I have I think the onl only options that we have with the case is are these three eith either we have a flat surfaced case or a curved surfaced case It does not say anything about whether technically you know this this stuff is available at all Marketing: it is it is more about the protecting the LCD which I think is where it came from But no my research did not tell me anything which is why we have all the pictures because I had nothing better to do with my time Project Manager: Anything else ? What have we got ? Marketing: combine style with a level of functionality beauty and practicality and a thing of beauty and p function","Firstly, Industrial Designer presented on the remote components including the circuit board, the chip, the kinetic energy, the solar cell, the case shape and the interface. Next, User Interface presented on user interface including the mechanisms to operate and input data, the shape and the size, the buttons and the voice recognition as well as the scroll wheel. Then, Marketing presented on market trends. In consideration of the target age group and technology innovation, Marketing suggested the group could go for LCD, the colours and the voice recognition as well as the flat spongy material based on current trends." "Industrial Designer: sorry can you go back for a second ? are you sure wha what this means a spinning wheel with the LC display ? oh are th Project Manager: It is like the like you said no ? The scroll scroll wheel User Interface: No no the scroll button is a different thing I I have a picture if you just a moment I will I will show you I was not completely sure myself but I think it is just like it is it is a wheel it is like not separate buttons Marketing: Oh it is like the iPod User Interface: But I am I am not really sure whether whether you can really turn it round it is like you press this or this or Industrial Designer: it is the iPod kind of Marketing: It is like it is like where you you know how you have your your mouse and y you go round and i it is kind of like that and you spin round Industrial Designer: So instead of going down you just spin Marketing: and it is a bit weird at first but it is actually very like fast I like the the wheels that click on the side you you get them much slower so it is quite good if you like searching quite a lot of stuff Do you know if you are lookin if you are th scrolling through the A to Z of your music and you are looking for something at T then it is a lot faster than the wheel but you have got a lot less control over it Industrial Designer: Right So maybe I should include that here as well","When User Interface mentioned about the new developments they would include, Industrial Designer asked about what a spinning wheel with the LCD display was. User Interface explained that it was a wheel but not separate buttons. Marketing supplemented that it was a fast wheel to control over. Industrial Designer agreed on LCD with spinning and would include it into the design." "Industrial Designer: I do not know if it is the right point to take it up W LCDs are basically for feedback right to the user who is pressing buttons and the feedback can come through television itself so do we need an LCD on the remote ? Marketing: Depends how fast your television runs really do not do not you think ? I mean we have got one of those Telewest boxes and you put the number in the remote and then you wait and then it goes to the TV and then you wait and then it comes so i it actually takes quite a long time And if you get the number in wrong then it is a bit of a pain so I think you know a screen on the remote would probably cut down your time on that But like remotes do tend to get f thrown about a bit Project Manager: It it is also quite nice though to to have something here so you do not interrupt the picture on the screen so if you are watching something Industrial Designer: That is true that is also Marketing: And i it would be like I mean if you could make it integrate with the TV then it could come up with new information about what is on and you could just see that on the remote rather than Project Manager: Rather than having to interrupt your viewing pleasure Marketing: But I think maybe a way to do it would be a similar way to how you have your mobile phone you know like you have the slidey ones and you have the flippy ones and then the screens protected so it does not actually get scratched So you can have like what looks like a normal remote control you know or like a minimalist remote control So you got your buttons one to nine your on and off and your volume on that and then if you want to mess about with it you flip it open and Project Manager: And then you can flip it open Industrial Designer: So now we seem to have a consensus that LCDs are definitely the way to go because of style and Marketing: so that kind of decides your whole chip thing","When Industrial Designer mentioned that LCD was basically feedback from television and questioned the necessity of LCD, Marketing suggested that they could integrate with the television then it could come up with new information about what was on, and users could just see that on the remote rather than TV itself so that users won't get interrupted by viewing pleasure. Also, Marketing thought the group could have a minimalist remote control so that users could flip it open if they wanted to mess about it." "Project Manager: Looking at what we have got we we want an LCD display with a spinning wheel Industrial Designer: Let us let us try to r rub off things and Project Manager: rub off some of those Industrial Designer: hand dynamos are definitely out right ? You you got a wind dynamo Project Manager: it is not that is not streamlined and sexy having a having a wind up Industrial Designer: kinetic energy does seem to have some kind of appeal Marketing: It is about the practicality of it really is not it ? You know ? Industrial Designer: As against a watch which constantly keeps moving this this thing will have to be tapped every time which which might be very frustrating for the user Project Manager: Depends how much how much movement it really needs Industrial Designer: Kinetic energy it needs I do not have too much technical information on that Project Manager: Pr presumably if they are suggesting it then we could use it Industrial Designer: right let us keep it option keep an option Project Manager: I would I would keep it on Industrial Designer: the flat co completely flat case is definitely out right ? It has to be at least curved from one side Project Manager: We do not want that it is no it is not not vegetable Industrial Designer: we still have all all the options Wood do you think wood will be a good idea ? User Interface: N wood is I can not n how do you I mean you can not keep it really small you can not make it like thin and Marketing: I can not imagine a m wooden remote control User Interface: The wood thing Because you need to you n you need to put all the technology in so I mean if the case you add the case and it it becomes a bit bulky Industrial Designer: if if it is really thin if it is really thin it it is likely to break it is it is much more Project Manager: and given that we are we are looking at more spongy material preferences I ha would think maybe rubber or plastic is more User Interface: YOU wood is not really Marketing: Well it is not very cleanable either It is it is not a practical I mean it is it is alright for a table but for a remote control you know And splinters and stuff and It just m does not make any sense I think is the thing with wood User Interface: in the case of remote control not really Industrial Designer: now for the really interesting stuff the interface Right so the the pushbuttons is is our expertise in the industry but it seems to be out of trend you know nobody seems to be Marketing: You have to have some pushbuttons do not you ? User Interface: but you I think for for the channel numb channel numbers you still need them would not you ? so for channel numbers but Industrial Designer: Oh if if we have LCD displays that opens up a whole world you know if you have an LCD display then mm you can select almost everything on the LCD display User Interface: But I th but I think the LCD display is kind of it is faster with a m and w if we dis and when we s discussed that we might like this flipping open thing then I mean y you can use it as a normal remote control but if you do want to use LCD then you flip it open but it is it it is more timeconsuming Marketing: I think this is going back to the the graph at the beginning that I made where you know the buttons that people use all the time you want buttons for them and everything else menudriven Industrial Designer: So in in the buttons we have for the channels also we have options Do you do we enumerate everything from zero to nine ? Or do we have just channel plus channel minus just to just to scroll ? User Interface: No no I mean mm we we definitely need the the numbers because it is otherwise people do not want to flip through all the channels Project Manager: Do we need them on as buttons or do we need them as LCD ? Industrial Designer: Or on the LCD we can you know Marketing: It is it is the I think the thing is so if someone just wants to turn on their TV and put on a channel then it should be easier to use than any other remote and then if someone wants to you know change the contrast on their TV and they should be able to do that and it should be accessible but you know I mean most of the time I mean there is a limit to how much the biggest techno geek can spend fiddling with the TV I think is the the the issue there Industrial Designer: so buttons definitely in but oh shall we try to draw a prec Project Manager: I think that is what you guys are going to do next so if we put down the key things that we want Industrial Designer: Right so what about the the scrolling ? User Interface: but n I I am not completely completely clear I about the spinning wheel So I think it it does not make sense to have both like a scrolling and spinning thing it is you can al include everything in the spinning if you Project Manager: Just spinning and not scrolling I would say Marketing: I would say the s the s the spinning goes at a high speed to th to the scrolling wheel so you have to decide whether you you know you want to be going so fast or not But I mean the the thing with this whole if y you are planning on making it out of rubber on the basis that it is spongy then I am not sure how well a scrolling wheel would work Project Manager: But if you have got a if if you have got a flipped thing effectively it is something that is curved on one side and flat on the other side but you folded it in half User Interface: Ah but I mean you can Marketing: but y your spinning wheel tends to go to one side Project Manager: Th that would be on one side uhhuh Industrial Designer: I am not sure it will be a good idea to construct the whole thing out of rubber i it Project Manager: No I think it is just the casing rubber on the outside User Interface: I I think so too I mean the case would be Marketing: You want an outside of rubber User Interface: the case would be rubber and the the buttons Marketing: and then open it up and Industrial Designer: Or or at the corners edges just the edges covered by rubber or something like that Everything else in plastic or even titanium if we want to use it Marketing: Or maybe like interchangeable cases Because I know like we are going back to iPods again n the whole spinning wheel but I have like a you know obviously my iPods not made of rubber but then I have a little rubber case that goes over the top of it and I can change the colour theoretically to match my outfit Industrial Designer: so so that gives us a more trendy look as well Marketing: I think the spinning wheel is definitely very now Industrial Designer: Right and we are going more for the trends than for the usability anyway right ? Project Manager: that is what they are after Industrial Designer: So I will rub that out And colours can be provided with the case rather than but we still need to te think about the colour of our remote as such you know just keep it black or User Interface: I think we it was a a requirement that we use our th the colours of our company so would it be like yellow grey and black or something or Marketing: That does not fit in with the whole vegetable theme though but I mean do you think we could incorporate the colours of the company into the buttons and then make the colour of the main remote the colour like vegetable colours do you know ? So you could have like I mean I suppose vegetable colours would be orange and green and some reds and maybe purple and that and then you would pick the buttons in company colours to to match with it Industrial Designer: if you g go over to the integrated circuits since we are having LCDs there there is no way that we are will be able to what we do need to consider however is that the price is going up for the ever every such thing that we are considering but since LCDs seems to be a definite yes so it seems to be one area where we would want to spend So I will rub off the other two Marketing: So are we discounting solar energy because rubbers going to be used in there somewhere or Industrial Designer: Oh is oh the constraint was Project Manager: We can not have solar panels with rubber so Marketing: solar panels with the rubber so we lose that I think Project Manager: Shall we go for if we are going for rubber we think on as our case and then User Interface: Mmhmm And the buttons as well I think Project Manager: We have got five more minutes Industrial Designer: we will have using the simple battery will be a safer option as compared to the kinetic energy one I mean a although it does seem interesting But it does not hold any advantages as such for a Marketing: It is just a gimmick Industrial Designer: so r we understand this better now that the the speaker is for the feedback right ? It it says the things that you type in or something like that so Project Manager: Mmhmm I think if we can if we can include them at not too much extra cost then I would put them in Industrial Designer: Ye we we do not have too much information about it User Interface: but it it I think it should be quite cheap because it is from our own company Project Manager: It is from the company so Industrial Designer: so so th this is in as well then the sample speaker Project Manager: And the case is curved on one side but then flat flat so it is flipped into each other Can I pull the thing out the back of your computer ? Marketing: Sorry do you want me to Project Manager: Nothing it is right I am just There we go Marketing: What does ICS mean ? cool So it is advanced integrated circuits ? Project Manager: oh now I have gone too far Industrial Designer: we we are definitely going in for voice recognition as well as LCDs mm Project Manager: We are on our way So we have basically worked out that we are going with a simple battery the advanced chip and a curved on one side case which is folded in on itself made out of rubber and the buttons are also rubber We are having pushbuttons on the outside and then on the inside an LCD with spinning wheel and we are incorporating voice recognition That is our overall concept and it is going to look sort of vegetable and be in bright vegetable colours User Interface: Uhhuh So w w would with have the spinning wheel inside with the LCD or would it be on the outer Marketing: Imagine it would be inside Project Manager: I think it is on the Marketing: So actually that could like really cut down your thing so you have got your outside which is like minimalist and then you open it up and you have got a screen and a spinning wheel which you can incorporate buttons into so you have still not got like a lot of stuff in the You have maybe got you know like if you are modelling on iPod you have got five buttons and a wheel and four of the buttons are in the wheel and the other ones the little bit inside the wheel Project Manager: so now we have got thirty minutes before our next meeting In the meantime the Industrial Designer over here is going to work on the look and feel design which I will presume he will work out what that means the User Interface Designer will work on the user interface design and the Marketing Expert is going to work on product evaluation And as well as that the two designers are going to work together on our prototype following those instructions that we have just come up with using modelling clay and you will get extra instructions from your personal coach Is that all ? And anyone who has not put their their presentation in the project documents folder it would be good just so in case we have to refer to it Marketing: Cool I am going to go and sit on my own Project Manager: Y ah nobody wants to talk to you Marketing: I know I am hated I have got a bit tangled up in all this User Interface: So but shall I move away first or shall I stay here with Project Manager: I do not know maybe I would car","They decided to implement a LCD display with a scroll wheel. Instead of using hand dynamos, the group decided to use a wind dynamo which was more environmentally friendly. And they would keep the kinetic energy as an option and keep the spongy material preferences as well as voice recognition. At last, groupmates agreed to apply interchangeable cases with incorporated colours to make the remote more trendy. They would use a simple battery, the advanced chip, a curved side case and rubber buttons." "Industrial Designer: we still have all all the options Wood do you think wood will be a good idea ? User Interface: N wood is I can not n how do you I mean you can not keep it really small you can not make it like thin and Marketing: I can not imagine a m wooden remote control User Interface: The wood thing Because you need to you n you need to put all the technology in so I mean if the case you add the case and it it becomes a bit bulky Industrial Designer: if if it is really thin if it is really thin it it is likely to break it is it is much more Project Manager: and given that we are we are looking at more spongy material preferences I ha would think maybe rubber or plastic is more User Interface: YOU wood is not really Marketing: Well it is not very cleanable either It is it is not a practical I mean it is it is alright for a table but for a remote control you know And splinters and stuff and It just m does not make any sense I think is the thing with wood User Interface: in the case of remote control not really","User Interface thought it would be hard to keep the remote control small with a wood case. Industrial Designer thought the thin wood remote would be easy to break. Project Manager thought given that they were looking at more spongy material preferences, rubber or plastic would be more practical. Also, the group thought that wood was not cleanable, so they decided not to use a wood case for the remote control." "Industrial Designer: now for the really interesting stuff the interface Right so the the pushbuttons is is our expertise in the industry but it seems to be out of trend you know nobody seems to be Marketing: You have to have some pushbuttons do not you ? User Interface: but you I think for for the channel numb channel numbers you still need them would not you ? so for channel numbers but Industrial Designer: Oh if if we have LCD displays that opens up a whole world you know if you have an LCD display then mm you can select almost everything on the LCD display User Interface: But I th but I think the LCD display is kind of it is faster with a m and w if we dis and when we s discussed that we might like this flipping open thing then I mean y you can use it as a normal remote control but if you do want to use LCD then you flip it open but it is it it is more timeconsuming Marketing: I think this is going back to the the graph at the beginning that I made where you know the buttons that people use all the time you want buttons for them and everything else menudriven","Industrial Designer mentioned that the push-buttons were their expertise in the industry when discussing the interface. And Industrial Designer thought it seemed to be out of trend, while Marketing thought they had to have push-buttons. Industrial Designer supplemented that if they had LCD displays, users could select everything on the LCD. However, User Interface thought the LCD was just for fast scrolling. So User Interface suggested using it as normal control. Marketing mentioned that they wanted buttons for users and everything else menu-driven." "Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Suzy I think for this years intake although we are in touch with our providers we are not in a position to be able to give figures for this years intake for a couple of months But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets So there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs So what we are doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class so that actually Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher You will be aware that we have recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year We have looked at financial incentives It is not the whole answer I think to these issues but it is part of a mixture of things that we need to do You will be aware that for priority subjects with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications those financial incentives are now £20000 a year We are also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees emailing them sending them materials to ask them to consider 1 becoming a teacher and 2 crucially coming to do that training here in Wales We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher So there is a whole package of things we need to do In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer I can see there is a lot of activity but what exactly is it responding to ? Presumably some research has been done about why people do not want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers I can not believe it is just about ITE although this is very valuable what you are talking about Is there something that is running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching is not a profession they want to go into ? Is that something that is happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well ? Kirsty Williams AM: No I think what you will find is that this is not a uniquely Welsh issue I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border which proves to me that money is not necessarily the entire answer because despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses they are not able to do that in England either So that proves to me—what the research does show—that it is not money alone that will get people onto these courses Interestingly I do not even think it is a UK problem Recently as you will be aware via my written statement I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory which is a systemtosystem conference If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention In the USA they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers So in the Californian system significant teacher shortages and in Oregon Washington I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state and in Finland Australia So this is a common issue across the globe really That is why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it is to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off One of the things that we have got strong performance in and I think this is perhaps something that we are trying to follow up on are employmentbased routes into qualified teacher status—so those are people who are training on the job Those remain strong There is high demand for those places so much so that we have increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year which says to me that—there is definitely a place for the traditional Take a year off do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year—actually that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching which is why of course from next year we will have our unique parttime PGCE route into qualification So that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities so they can earn while they learn or maybe they have got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a fulltime course I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools So there is no one thing I think that we can do that will solve this issue But it is an international issue I agree with that Suzy Davies AM: Well that is what I was after finding out and actually what you have just said about the parttime PGCE is pretty interesting as well because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching that is got to help has not it ? Kirsty Williams AM: Can I just agree with you ? I think that is really really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really really valuable I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week talking to the Alevel chemistry teacher She had been a teacher for a while she would gone into industry worked in industry and now had come back into teaching She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue I am very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I am very keen in looking at career changers who perhaps have different life experience and work experience coming into our teaching profession Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that Part of that diversity of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh Great aspirations the trends going the other way Noone can solve this in 280 characters I get that but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it is clear that there is a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers ? You would have thought there would be a pretty good carrot for this Kirsty Williams AM: Sure Again data for recruitment for the 201819 cohort is not yet available and we are as I said keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but do not necessarily do a course that allows them So there is a difference We do think that for the 201617 cohort there were an additional 130 qualifiers that actually were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welshmedium schools did not necessarily do a course that gave them that designation But clearly we have got three academic years now to get to the targets that we have set ourselves The evaluation of Welshmedium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published I think on 28 September to be able to move this agenda forward Again we have got new incentives this year both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year So we have added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues But clearly these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we are to meet them Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that Cabinet Secretary Thank you for that answer We are now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees If they are from Wales they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one and we will accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales different attitudes towards it as well But there is not a single a person now who is been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all unless they have moved into the system from say England very very recently What is being done within the teaching qualifications including the degrees to ensure that at least in Welsh universities those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive even though we are not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium ? It is the ageold question : once the school gate closes is that the end of their Welsh use ? So is there something—it will not be Donaldson but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and hopefully increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16 how they can continue to use those skills and potentially use them in the workplace I am sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work for instance in other nonteaching sectors But with regard to ITE you will be aware that in the evaluation report as I said that was published the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants So what we will be doing now as a result of that report is that we will be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021 in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system which is positive although clearly the report or the review itself said that actually we need to double the numbers really But it is not just the trends that are going down it is a cataclysmic drop really We have lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh So it is a huge turnaround that we are looking for and I am not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you are giving here this morning reflect the level of action that is needed really Kirsty Williams AM: Well first of all as I tried to illustrate to Suzy the figures on their own tell one story but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use— Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it is 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who do not— Kirsty Williams AM: —the language and skills And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type actually we see a different trend—we see numbers going up So there are statistics and there are statistics Depending on which ones you look at it is quite a complex picture And that is why we had the evaluation report We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done That is why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that is why we will be taking that ambition forward We know what we need to do As I said we are not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things We are pulling levers and putting in place plans to improve that situation Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that Clearly there are statistics and there are statistics so could you just explain to us which statistics you have used for your targets for growth over the next three years ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050— Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you are projecting ? Kirsty Williams AM: We are using the baseline of 201213 There has been a decline since then Llyr Gruffydd AM: That is the one I was using when I said 24 per cent reduction Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers That is why as I said we are doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline In using those numbers we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings So what I am saying is that that does not tell us the whole story but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions and I am not hiding from that Eluned Morgan AM: Also I just think it is worth saying that a lot of this is about building the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh and to give them that support First of all we need to identify who these people are so there is a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register let us just make sure that we collect that kind of data Kirsty Williams AM: We do not even do that consistently at the moment One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there is no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of their course so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions Llyr Gruffydd AM: Have we missed any tricks potentially in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE for example in terms of maybe strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect ? Kirsty Williams AM: No I do not believe so The accreditation process which is independent of the Government—the accreditation process demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children through all stages of their education journey to be able to be bilingual children Llyr Gruffydd AM: So that requirement as far you are concerned is there Lynne Neagle AM: Before I turn to Hefin can I just clarify— ? In answer to Suzy Davies you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled Is that 65 per cent of the priority places ? Kirsty Williams AM: Sixtyfive per cent of the priority courses are being met Lynne Neagle AM: Lovely thank you for clarifying that Hefin","Although there were no exact figures,they had seen over recent years that they were only recruiting to about 65 percent of targets. It was partially due to the financial incentives, but that was not all of the problems. Because this issue was not only in Wales, but a common issue in all over the world. For example, in England, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, people still were not getting onto those courses. To solve this problem, they had taken several steps including making sure their ITE provision was world class, embarking on the first national ITE recruitment marketing exercise, etc. In this process, Llyr Gruffydd had a doubt that the level of ambition did not reflect the level of action that was needed actually. Kirsty Williams responded that different statistics told different stories. They obviously understood there were many steps they had to take, but they were trying instead of just sitting back and waiting." "Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you Suzy I think for this years intake although we are in touch with our providers we are not in a position to be able to give figures for this years intake for a couple of months But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets So there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs So what we are doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class so that actually Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher You will be aware that we have recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year We have looked at financial incentives It is not the whole answer I think to these issues but it is part of a mixture of things that we need to do You will be aware that for priority subjects with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications those financial incentives are now £20000 a year We are also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees emailing them sending them materials to ask them to consider 1 becoming a teacher and 2 crucially coming to do that training here in Wales We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher So there is a whole package of things we need to do In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer I can see there is a lot of activity but what exactly is it responding to ? Presumably some research has been done about why people do not want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers I can not believe it is just about ITE although this is very valuable what you are talking about Is there something that is running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching is not a profession they want to go into ? Is that something that is happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well ? Kirsty Williams AM: No I think what you will find is that this is not a uniquely Welsh issue I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border which proves to me that money is not necessarily the entire answer because despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses they are not able to do that in England either So that proves to me—what the research does show—that it is not money alone that will get people onto these courses Interestingly I do not even think it is a UK problem Recently as you will be aware via my written statement I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory which is a systemtosystem conference If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention In the USA they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers So in the Californian system significant teacher shortages and in Oregon Washington I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state and in Finland Australia So this is a common issue across the globe really That is why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it is to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off One of the things that we have got strong performance in and I think this is perhaps something that we are trying to follow up on are employmentbased routes into qualified teacher status—so those are people who are training on the job Those remain strong There is high demand for those places so much so that we have increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year which says to me that—there is definitely a place for the traditional Take a year off do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year—actually that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching which is why of course from next year we will have our unique parttime PGCE route into qualification So that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities so they can earn while they learn or maybe they have got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a fulltime course I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools So there is no one thing I think that we can do that will solve this issue But it is an international issue I agree with that","Even though there was no specific figure that could be provided, they had only been recruiting about 65 percent of targets.Therefore, there was a lot of work they have to do about this. First, they were making sure that their ITE provision was world class, and recently they were through an accreditation process for a new ITE provision that would start in the next academic year. Second, they had looked at financial incentives.Third, they were embarking on their first national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. Kirsty Williams mentioned that this was not a unique issue in Wales, but a common issue across the globe. Money was not the only reason that prevented people from getting onto these courses. What's more, from next year, they would be going to have their unique part-time PGCE route into qualification, which allowed people to bring their outside world experience into teaching, and this could increase the diversity in their teaching workforce." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021 in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system which is positive although clearly the report or the review itself said that actually we need to double the numbers really But it is not just the trends that are going down it is a cataclysmic drop really We have lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh So it is a huge turnaround that we are looking for and I am not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you are giving here this morning reflect the level of action that is needed really Kirsty Williams AM: Well first of all as I tried to illustrate to Suzy the figures on their own tell one story but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use— Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it is 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who do not— Kirsty Williams AM: —the language and skills And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type actually we see a different trend—we see numbers going up So there are statistics and there are statistics Depending on which ones you look at it is quite a complex picture And that is why we had the evaluation report We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done That is why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that is why we will be taking that ambition forward We know what we need to do As I said we are not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things We are pulling levers and putting in place plans to improve that situation Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that Clearly there are statistics and there are statistics so could you just explain to us which statistics you have used for your targets for growth over the next three years ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050— Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you are projecting ? Kirsty Williams AM: We are using the baseline of 201213 There has been a decline since then Llyr Gruffydd AM: That is the one I was using when I said 24 per cent reduction Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers That is why as I said we are doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline In using those numbers we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings So what I am saying is that that does not tell us the whole story but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions and I am not hiding from that","First, Kirsty Williams said the figures on their own would tell one story. If looking at qualifiers of ITE scores in Wales by degree type, a trend of numbers going up appeared. Both of them were statistics and it depended on which one you look at. They absolutely understood that there was a lot of work needing to be done, and that was why they had the evaluation of provision in ITE and they would be taking that ambition forward. They were not sitting back and just waiting. They were actually taking steps." "Hefin David AM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that ? Kirsty Williams AM: The process is independent of Government and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system but the process is independent of this Government I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process but it is independent of me and it is not appropriate for me to comment on that further Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC but there will be an impact on students and staff Students first of all : are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students and those students going through the second year at USW ? Would you have concerns about that issue ? Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need So in terms of an overall number of places we will commission from those accredited units Clearly there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff or would you say that is an issue for the university itself ? Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies They have to act accordingly in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer That is not a matter for me that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body Hefin David AM: But I would be surprised if you were not keeping an eye on this given that it has been a key provider Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known ? Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing and next month perhaps But as I said this is a process that is independent of Government— Hefin David AM: But it will have an impact for what you do Kirsty Williams AM: It will potentially change the nature of the people from whom we commission places but as I said I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as a result of our planning Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Suzy on this—mindful of what the Minister said about it being an independent decision Suzy Davies AM: It is not directly about USW it is about the geographic spread of provision I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses anyway—that if they are not accessible geographically and we have got students who already have three years worth of debt they are not going to be looking to necessarily live away from home for a fourth year and may want to study nearer home Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses about where people are coming from and whether that is had an impact on the fact that some of these places have not been filled ? Kirsty Williams AM: Currently with our current providers there is a significant geographical spread There are centres here in the southeast there are centres in the southwest in mid Wales and in north Wales Obviously accessibility is an issue for us We do think that for some students accessibility is an issue and of course that is why we are responding with our parttime PGCE route which actually will be location neutral because you will be able to study that as a distance learner and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course So that is part of the attractiveness I believe of offering that to people So if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher our new parttime PGCE as I said will allow them to do that","Kirsty Williams firstly made it clear that it would not be appropriate to comment this since this process was independent of Government. Hefin David then proposed the impact on students and staff. Kirsty Williams thought there would be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system were able to complete their studies with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and graduate from that program. The same was true for staff. Kirsty Williams thought that would be a matter for the institution. After this, they had some discussions on the geographic spread of provision." "Hefin David AM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that ? Kirsty Williams AM: The process is independent of Government and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system but the process is independent of this Government I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process but it is independent of me and it is not appropriate for me to comment on that further Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC but there will be an impact on students and staff Students first of all : are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students and those students going through the second year at USW ? Would you have concerns about that issue ? Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need So in terms of an overall number of places we will commission from those accredited units Clearly there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff or would you say that is an issue for the university itself ? Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies They have to act accordingly in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer That is not a matter for me that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body Hefin David AM: But I would be surprised if you were not keeping an eye on this given that it has been a key provider Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known ? Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing and next month perhaps But as I said this is a process that is independent of Government—","Kirsty Williams thought this process was independent of the Government, and it would not be very appropriate to comment on it. From the very outset of their ITE reforms, they had made it clear that they expected very high standards in the ITE system, but this process was independent of the Government. More specifically with the concern of the impact on students and staff, Kirsty Williams mentioned that this would be a responsibility of University of South Wales itself." "Suzy Davies AM: It is not directly about USW it is about the geographic spread of provision I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses anyway—that if they are not accessible geographically and we have got students who already have three years worth of debt they are not going to be looking to necessarily live away from home for a fourth year and may want to study nearer home Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses about where people are coming from and whether that is had an impact on the fact that some of these places have not been filled ? Kirsty Williams AM: Currently with our current providers there is a significant geographical spread There are centres here in the southeast there are centres in the southwest in mid Wales and in north Wales Obviously accessibility is an issue for us We do think that for some students accessibility is an issue and of course that is why we are responding with our parttime PGCE route which actually will be location neutral because you will be able to study that as a distance learner and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course So that is part of the attractiveness I believe of offering that to people So if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher our new parttime PGCE as I said will allow them to do that","Kirsty Williams said there was a significant geographic spread with their current providers currently. They thought for some students, accessibility was an issue, and that was why they were responding with their part-time PGCE route, which actually would be located neutral. Therefore, if geographical disadvantages were stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, the new part-time PGCE would allow them to do this." "Hefin David AM: Cabinet Secretary are you in favour of more university mergers ? Kirsty Williams AM: I would not use the word agnostic but what I am in favour of is a healthy strong and sustainable HE sector If individual institutions wish to collaborate or indeed go further to a formal merger then obviously that is a matter for them We are not pursuing or urging a policy of mergers but if individual institutions feel that is of benefit to them and their students obviously we would have an interest in that and making sure that they were robust plans but that is a matter for individual institutions Hefin David AM: But HEFCW are pushing it Kirsty Williams AM: Well again what HEFCW are interested in is a sustainable HE sector that is strong but as I said I do not have a burning desire or a set policy to try and pursue mergers Hefin David AM: That is a little bit of a contrast with your predecessors then Kirsty Williams AM: Well that is a matter for them Hefin David AM: The reason I say it is because I was kind of on the inside when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the then Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport It was a very difficult time for staff and indeed for students You had the University and College Union and the Minister pushing it the vicechancellor of Cardiff Met at the time very much against it So do you think that it is really— ? You are agnostic but do you think perhaps it is not worth the disruption that can occur to staff and students ? Kirsty Williams AM: As I said Hefin I have no formal policy for reconfiguration or mergers That is not to say I do not believe in collaboration between institutions Going back to the issue of ITE a very interesting programme came forward from Cardiff Met and Cardiff University for their ITE provision So I am all for universities and institutions working together but there is no formal policy These are autonomous institutions If they see that there is an advantage—I would hope for the student first and if we put the student at the front of this process then we would obviously have an interest in that and making sure that that was the right thing to do But certainly there is no pressure from us as a Government to pursue an agenda of mergers Hefin David AM: Just to be clear then that is likely to be a policy for the foreseeable future as well you are not going to change that view Kirsty Williams AM: I have no intentions at this stage but Events dear boy Laughter You know sometimes there may be a situation that I can not foresee at this moment that would necessitate for the benefit of students the benefit of Wales a merger So never say never but at this point in time I do not foresee us changing that policy Julie Morgan AM: Yes just looking back at that time which I remember very vividly— I had many meetings with Cardiff Met Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger did not go ahead ? Kirsty Williams AM: I personally am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues then that would have had a personal impact on them In terms of the institution going forward I am not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion And as I said I am really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges and I think that is to be welcomed Julie Morgan AM: So following on from what Hefin said was it worth all the fuss ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well look as it is turned out we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met and I think rather than looking at the past we need to look at the future But of course there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration and HEFCW are currently doing some work actually to look at reconfiguration the experience of reconfiguration that did happen and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process So they are doing a piece of work to reflect and that will perhaps help inform us as we go forward","Kirsty Williams firstly proposed that the main goal he would like to pursue was a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. They did not pursue or urge a policy of mergers, but they welcomed the mergers, if this was beneficial for individual institutions. Hefin David proposed that was in contrast with the predecessors, and talked about the situation when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the previous Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport. Kirsty Williams thought they needed to look at the future instead of looking at the past. They had a strong institution in Cardiff Met now. However, it was obvious that they got to learn some lessons from that process." ,"Kirsty Williams said he was in favor of a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. If individual institutions wish to collaborate, that was a matter for themselves. They did not pursue or urge a policy of mergers, but if individual institutions felt that was of benefit to them and their students, they would have an interest in that and make sure that they were robust plans." "Julie Morgan AM: I had many meetings with Cardiff Met Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger did not go ahead ? Kirsty Williams AM: I personally am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues then that would have had a personal impact on them In terms of the institution going forward I am not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion And as I said I am really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges and I think that is to be welcomed Julie Morgan AM: So following on from what Hefin said was it worth all the fuss ? Kirsty Williams AM: Well look as it is turned out we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met and I think rather than looking at the past we need to look at the future But of course there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration and HEFCW are currently doing some work actually to look at reconfiguration the experience of reconfiguration that did happen and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process So they are doing a piece of work to reflect and that will perhaps help inform us as we go forward","Kirsty Williams was not aware of any disadvantages to Cardiff Met. In terms of students and staff, there would be some personal impact on them. However, in terms of institutions going forward, Kirsty Williams was not aware that they were currently struggling with any disadvantages. Instead of looking at the past, Kirsty Williams thought they needed to look at the future. It had turned out that they got a strong institution in Cardiff Met." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute and I know that you are not the employer because I know that is going to be the first answer— Kirsty Williams AM: You are right that is the first answer Laughter Well anticipated Dawn Bowden AM: But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera et cetera I can see how this dispute has arisen When we have seen the teachers pay settlement we have seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what is on the table here And I am concerned and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff So they have walked away from the table they have said One per cent take it or leave it Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money that is the end of that And I am really concerned about that because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges And I look at the college in my constituency Merthyr college—it is a tertiary college they are providing Alevel education across Merthyr and they are astounding results they have been getting as well I am coming round to the question in a moment It is really : what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football ? Eluned Morgan AM: Thanks very much for that I think first of all you are absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymrus negotiation but we are keeping a close eye on the situation I think it is probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about or part of the reason is because you have seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers pay and we have had the consequential So sixthform teachers are happy The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution you can understand why they may say Something needs to change here The problem here is that it is about that actually that falls to the Welsh Government We do not have that Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that and it is up to them to come up with that proposal We are keeping a close eye on things I think it is fair to say that we will wait until they get further along down the line but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you for that Minister When you say you are keeping a close eye on it have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru ? Because I note what you just said there : We will keep an eye on it and wait and see what is happening Well all the unions are currently consulting One has already balloted for industrial action We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action I mean this is not something we want in the FE sector clearly so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru and also we are aware of what the unions are saying as well So I think that is probably as far as we can go at this point When they come to a conclusion and when they come to us and say Look this is the consequence and this will finish—at this point we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes thank you Yes we would not expect you to make an announcement on this because it is happening outside of Government but there is a principle here is not there in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE ? So would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect ? Eluned Morgan AM: In relation to teaching I think it is fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching yes Llyr Gruffydd AM: thank you You emphasise in relation to teaching—my next question is that of course within FE establishments you have teaching staff and nonteaching staff and if there was to be some sort of increase then would you not expect all staff to have that ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well let us see—that is up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss so let us see what the outcomes are Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because some of the nonteaching staff are the lowest paid as well are not they ? So you know— Eluned Morgan AM: Let us wait for the outcome of the negotiations I think we are very aware of the situation ColegauCymru are in that negotiation We are aware of what the requests are from the trade union members and we will wait to see what they come up with before responding formally Llyr Gruffydd AM: Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions because that is coming down the line potentially is not it and the impact that is going to have on FE ? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them potentially because obviously this is coming down the line really is not it ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well I think already we have got the situation in relation to teachers and again what we have seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that Again what we do not have necessarily is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to It is early days on this but it is something again we are keeping an eye on Llyr Gruffydd AM: The fundamental question really is : if the money does not come down the line from Westminster are you in a position to underwrite that ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well we will wait until we see that situation arising but we are aware that that is an issue that we are going to have to deal with in future Lynne Neagle AM: In relation to the pay dispute it is the committees understanding that ColegauCymrus position is that in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers an additional 35 per cent or £101 million is needed Are you aware of that being their position ?","Dawn Bowden proposed the topic of pay dispute and asked what could be done as a Government to try to get parties back round the table and solve this dispute. Eluned Morgan thought this was about ColegauCymru's negotiation, and they were keeping a close eye on this situation. Eluned Morgan thought it would be fair to wait until they get further along down the line. Then Eluned Morgan had a detailed explanation about what they had done, including listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and they were aware of what the unions were saying as well. Furthermore, Eluned Morgan said they would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, but details in relation to this should be waited until the outcome of the negotiations of ColegauCymru. They were aware of all those situations and they knew they were going to have to deal with it in the future." "Eluned Morgan AM: Thanks very much for that I think first of all you are absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymrus negotiation but we are keeping a close eye on the situation I think it is probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about or part of the reason is because you have seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers pay and we have had the consequential So sixthform teachers are happy The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution you can understand why they may say Something needs to change here The problem here is that it is about that actually that falls to the Welsh Government We do not have that Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that and it is up to them to come up with that proposal We are keeping a close eye on things I think it is fair to say that we will wait until they get further along down the line but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you for that Minister When you say you are keeping a close eye on it have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru ? Because I note what you just said there : We will keep an eye on it and wait and see what is happening Well all the unions are currently consulting One has already balloted for industrial action We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action I mean this is not something we want in the FE sector clearly so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru and also we are aware of what the unions are saying as well So I think that is probably as far as we can go at this point When they come to a conclusion and when they come to us and say Look this is the consequence and this will finish—at this point we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall","Eluned Morgan agreed with Dawn Bowden that this was about ColegauCymru's negotiation. They would keep a close eye on this situation, but they would wait for the outcome of the negotiations of ColegauCymru before they take any serious steps. They had listened and spoken to ColegauCymru and were aware of what the unions were saying. However, at this point, they had no idea where the settlement was likely to fall." "Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes thank you Yes we would not expect you to make an announcement on this because it is happening outside of Government but there is a principle here is not there in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE ? So would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect ? Eluned Morgan AM: In relation to teaching I think it is fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching yes Llyr Gruffydd AM: thank you You emphasise in relation to teaching—my next question is that of course within FE establishments you have teaching staff and nonteaching staff and if there was to be some sort of increase then would you not expect all staff to have that ? Eluned Morgan AM: Well let us see—that is up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss so let us see what the outcomes are Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because some of the nonteaching staff are the lowest paid as well are not they ? So you know— Eluned Morgan AM: Let us wait for the outcome of the negotiations I think we are very aware of the situation ColegauCymru are in that negotiation We are aware of what the requests are from the trade union members and we will wait to see what they come up with before responding formally","Eluned Morgan said that they would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching. As for whether all staff should get the increase or only teaching staff but not non-teaching staff, Eluned Morgan thought this should be up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, and they should wait for their outcomes." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you very much We are going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian Siân Sian Gwenllian AM: It is a because of great concern to us all of course in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and wellbeing among our children and young people So what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact of the pandemic ? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place ? Vaughan Gething AM: Again I think it is helpful that you have already heard from the education Minister last week because I think the first of her key principles for returning to school is the impact on the emotional health and wellbeing of children So childrens mental health was a central concern and remains so for both myself and the education Minister Part of the honest challenge again is that we do not fully understand the impact on the mental health and wellbeing of children but we do expect there will have been an impact So we are working together with both health boards and our own knowledge and analytical services across the Government to both try to further understand what that is and the difference Until we have more contact with families we may not fully understand that and that is a real point of concern for me In all of the unknowns within this the impact on mental health and wellbeing is absolutely one of them because we are looking at how we then develop not just a recovery plan for the economy but a recovery plan around mental health how we support people and that will have to be informed by the understanding of what is happening when we get more engagement with families about the level of need and then how we need to think about that Obviously it is a key factor for their return to school but actually for the life children and young people lead outside the school environment and that will be difficult because we are going to phase out of lockdown—it is not going to be a onehit measure That absolutely is not going to happen We are going to be looking at at each point what difference has been made what more we can do And again there are the efforts we are making to make sure that our online support services and our telephone support services—that we keep on reminding people that they are there and are available and we want people to make use of them because I know as this committee said we would much rather be able to support people and intervene earlier rather than wait until there is a much bigger problem in a period of months in the future Sian Gwenllian AM: So in reality there is been no assessment undertaken because it is difficult to do that So the full picture in terms of the outcomes of the crisis—you do not know what they are at the moment as things stand Vaughan Gething AM: We can not know because we do not have that level of contact There is a development— I would not say that no works being done but I could not tell you honestly that that work is finalised and we have a definitive understanding of the picture If I tried to say that then I am sure you would ask me How on earth can you say that ? If you are not having regular contact with people you can not possibly understand the picture And it is much better to say We do not understand the full picture We know there will have been an impact We are working alongside health boards and others but we will know more as we carry on having more contact with families I will look at a variety of different areas again both to reform the recovery plan but also then to understand what we need to do at various points in the future and the picture that we are seeing is not straightforward and we need to make sure that we do not try to pretend to ourselves or to the public that there is a oneoff measure that will allow us to be successful in all the areas that we would want to be Sian Gwenllian AM: But can you give the committee an assurance today that this area of mental health and wellbeing is going to be a priority for you as health Minister ? Vaughan Gething AM: Of course Not just on the work we have done in the past not just because it is one of the key principles for the education Minister about the reopening of schools but it is a real worry list for me about how we understand the impact on the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people and to move forwards that we do not end up with an entire generation of children and young people who grow up with a range of damage because we have not thought about what that will look like So the mental health recovery plan will of course be of very real importance to me In amongst all the other priorities I have I am certainly not going to allow the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people to be forgotten Sian Gwenllian AM: And how does the current capacity in terms of child and adolescent mental health services compare to service capacity prior to the coronavirus outbreak in Wales ? Have you had to shift some resources over from CAMHS for example in order to deal with more general aspects of coronavirus ? Vaughan Gething AM: No we have actually got— Maybe perhaps it might be helpful Chair if Tracey Breheny could say something about the way that we are monitoring the impact we have in terms of we have got a reporting tool but also weekly contact with leads in CAMHS services Tracey Breheny: Of course Thanks Minister Yes on that question we moved pretty quickly at the beginning of the pandemic phase to put in place as the Minister said a weekly monitoring tool of all local health boards so through that tool we look at that every week in terms of collecting information Whilst national reportings been stood down we are picking up assurance through that tool on things like staff sickness in CAMHS services referral numbers and so on so we do have that tool in place and at the moment that is telling us that the system can meet the capacity has the capacity to meet need Sian Gwenllian AM: Have CAMHS staff been shifted over to do other work during this virus outbreak ? Tracey Breheny: There has been some movement as I am saying around health boards particularly where in the first phase of the epidemic the concentration was on inpatient provision providing critical care but my understanding is from the latest tool that we looked at last week those staff are gradually not just returning to work from selfisolation or whatever or from different parts of the system Sian Gwenllian AM: And then what about the capacity for CAMHS primary mental health services ? Has there been a reduction in that capacity since the beginning of the pandemic in terms of inpatients ? Because that is what I am hearing that there has been such a reduction but how are those patients then treated and served ? Tracey Breheny: In terms of inpatient capacity that is in the system in both the north Wales and in the south Wales unit at the moment There were some discharges of young people but we have had the assurance that that was only undertaken where it was clinically safe to do so and where the community support was in place Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally in this section from me given that schools are of course closed and that schools are so very important in terms of signposting young people towards services how can young people access appropriate services—online services for example ? How are they signposted towards those services at the moment ? Vaughan Gething AM: Well we have not closed off general practice and as you know we have expanded the ability for people to access services in an online manner We have expanded a range of telephone advice services so the telephone advice service we already provide we have made sure that is maintained and both myself and the deputy Minister have referred to that on a number of occasions I think the real struggle and the real difficulty is actually how you punch through different messages when the broader news agenda is so overwhelmingly focused on headline messages in other areas That is again a worry for me but the communications we have within the health and care system people should know where to refer people to and how to provide access to both telephone and online support that continues to be available and actually as I say we have expanded that right across our healthcare system That is what I am keen to see continue into the future Whatever the postCOVID19 world is I do not want to miss out on the progress we have made in the online provision of services Of course most children and young people expect to be able to access services in an online manner already Sian Gwenllian AM: But of course there will be some who are missed they may fall between two stools because they will not know where to turn Vaughan Gething AM: Yes and that again comes back to our challenge of how we help children and young people in their context with their families to know where support and advice and guidance is Many people are defaulting to their general practitioner if they can not find advice somewhere else so that is why there is the information we are providing through general practice to signpost people so those pathways have not been closed off It is about making sure that people have alternative means that they are prepared to use at this point in time If we go back to where we started this evidence session we were talking about the difficulty of families who do not want to engage in a traditional persontoperson contact or being in the same room as someone else or allowing people into their home So there is a real challenge about how we make the service available but then encourage people to take it up so that we do not see much greater harm that we have to try and resolve at a later point Lynne Neagle AM: thank you I have got a supplementary from Suzy Davies and can I remind Ministers about concise answers please ? Suzy Suzy Davies AM: Yes thank you Just as we are speaking about children and young peoples mental health I wonder if you can confirm whether you have seen the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Childs reports about what they call the grave physical and psychological effect on children and young people and whether the operational guidance you have given out is responding to that in any way or maybe there was something in that that you had not thought of and you can respond to as we go along","Vaughan Gething pointed out that due to the school lockdown, children as well as their parents would face difficulties at home learning and social-contacting. In case they would suffer from potential mental health problems, the government have to carry out a mental health recovery plan. Sian Gwenllian then mentioned that the CAMHS, as well as all the schools, should follow up the mental states of children and offer telephone and online support." "Lynne Neagle AM: thank you very much We are going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian Siân Sian Gwenllian AM: It is a because of great concern to us all of course in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and wellbeing among our children and young people So what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact of the pandemic ? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place ? Vaughan Gething AM: Again I think it is helpful that you have already heard from the education Minister last week because I think the first of her key principles for returning to school is the impact on the emotional health and wellbeing of children So childrens mental health was a central concern and remains so for both myself and the education Minister Part of the honest challenge again is that we do not fully understand the impact on the mental health and wellbeing of children but we do expect there will have been an impact So we are working together with both health boards and our own knowledge and analytical services across the Government to both try to further understand what that is and the difference Until we have more contact with families we may not fully understand that and that is a real point of concern for me In all of the unknowns within this the impact on mental health and wellbeing is absolutely one of them because we are looking at how we then develop not just a recovery plan for the economy but a recovery plan around mental health how we support people and that will have to be informed by the understanding of what is happening when we get more engagement with families about the level of need and then how we need to think about that Obviously it is a key factor for their return to school but actually for the life children and young people lead outside the school environment and that will be difficult because we are going to phase out of lockdown—it is not going to be a onehit measure That absolutely is not going to happen We are going to be looking at at each point what difference has been made what more we can do And again there are the efforts we are making to make sure that our online support services and our telephone support services—that we keep on reminding people that they are there and are available and we want people to make use of them because I know as this committee said we would much rather be able to support people and intervene earlier rather than wait until there is a much bigger problem in a period of months in the future Sian Gwenllian AM: So in reality there is been no assessment undertaken because it is difficult to do that So the full picture in terms of the outcomes of the crisis—you do not know what they are at the moment as things stand Vaughan Gething AM: We can not know because we do not have that level of contact There is a development— I would not say that no works being done but I could not tell you honestly that that work is finalised and we have a definitive understanding of the picture If I tried to say that then I am sure you would ask me How on earth can you say that ? If you are not having regular contact with people you can not possibly understand the picture And it is much better to say We do not understand the full picture We know there will have been an impact We are working alongside health boards and others but we will know more as we carry on having more contact with families I will look at a variety of different areas again both to reform the recovery plan but also then to understand what we need to do at various points in the future and the picture that we are seeing is not straightforward and we need to make sure that we do not try to pretend to ourselves or to the public that there is a oneoff measure that will allow us to be successful in all the areas that we would want to be Sian Gwenllian AM: But can you give the committee an assurance today that this area of mental health and wellbeing is going to be a priority for you as health Minister ? Vaughan Gething AM: Of course Not just on the work we have done in the past not just because it is one of the key principles for the education Minister about the reopening of schools but it is a real worry list for me about how we understand the impact on the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people and to move forwards that we do not end up with an entire generation of children and young people who grow up with a range of damage because we have not thought about what that will look like So the mental health recovery plan will of course be of very real importance to me In amongst all the other priorities I have I am certainly not going to allow the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people to be forgotten Sian Gwenllian AM: And how does the current capacity in terms of child and adolescent mental health services compare to service capacity prior to the coronavirus outbreak in Wales ? Have you had to shift some resources over from CAMHS for example in order to deal with more general aspects of coronavirus ? Vaughan Gething AM: No we have actually got— Maybe perhaps it might be helpful Chair if Tracey Breheny could say something about the way that we are monitoring the impact we have in terms of we have got a reporting tool but also weekly contact with leads in CAMHS services","When it comes to continuing mental health service during the lockdown, Vaughan Gething insisted that it was of great necessity to carry out a mental health recovery plan that with such a system, government can ensure the children could enjoy a healthy mental state during the school lockdown. However, at present they had not yet finished a detailed research in this job for that they were still under the cooperation with health boards to get a whole perspective of the situation." "Tracey Breheny: Of course Thanks Minister Yes on that question we moved pretty quickly at the beginning of the pandemic phase to put in place as the Minister said a weekly monitoring tool of all local health boards so through that tool we look at that every week in terms of collecting information Whilst national reportings been stood down we are picking up assurance through that tool on things like staff sickness in CAMHS services referral numbers and so on so we do have that tool in place and at the moment that is telling us that the system can meet the capacity has the capacity to meet need Sian Gwenllian AM: Have CAMHS staff been shifted over to do other work during this virus outbreak ? Tracey Breheny: There has been some movement as I am saying around health boards particularly where in the first phase of the epidemic the concentration was on inpatient provision providing critical care but my understanding is from the latest tool that we looked at last week those staff are gradually not just returning to work from selfisolation or whatever or from different parts of the system Sian Gwenllian AM: And then what about the capacity for CAMHS primary mental health services ? Has there been a reduction in that capacity since the beginning of the pandemic in terms of inpatients ? Because that is what I am hearing that there has been such a reduction but how are those patients then treated and served ? Tracey Breheny: In terms of inpatient capacity that is in the system in both the north Wales and in the south Wales unit at the moment There were some discharges of young people but we have had the assurance that that was only undertaken where it was clinically safe to do so and where the community support was in place","When Sian Gwenllian questioned whether they had got a monitoring system over the availability of the staff at the mental health organizations, Tracey Breheny rebutted that they kept following up their healthy condition to ensure that they have enough staff to offer the mental health care for the children." "Vaughan Gething AM: I personally have not read that advice but the Governments already concerned about the direct physical and mental health impact of lockdown restrictions You do not need to be a parent to recognise that that is a potential issue for children and young people But I am sure— I have not read it but that is been signposted so I can check with officials if they have and if that would change the advice and the position that we are already adopting because we do regularly look at a range of advice from a range of sources including the UN the World Health Organization and others Lynne Neagle AM: and we are going to come onto childrens rights But as you know Minister the prevention of young suicide is a because that is very close to my heart Can I ask what assessment the Welsh Government has made of an increase in suicide amongst children and young people during this pandemic and because of this pandemic ? Vaughan Gething AM: Apart from the general concern that I have expressed on mental health generally we are already investigating we are having a— We have commissioned through the Government the delivery unit to work with the national advisory group including Dr Ann John and other people to review the current unexpected deaths during the start of the pandemic here in Wales because we want to try to understand the wider concerns about the potential effects of the restrictions on the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people and if that is leading to a spike in suicide or not So that is why we have commissioned that review to be carried out with the current numbers of unexpected deaths that we have so we are able then to provide a report to understand where we are My understanding is that we should have a report on that review before the end of this month and obviously I know the committee ’ s got an interest so if it is helpful we can write to you once we have had a chance to receive the report and to look at it Lynne Neagle AM: Yes please Thank you In terms of provision of crisis care then how has that been impacted by the pandemic ? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment ? Vaughan Gething AM: Yes they continue to be available We still have sevendayaweek crisis care We have made clear that mental health services including those for children and young people are essential services to be provided They are not services to be scaled down They were not part of the series of measures that I stopped within the health service on 13 March We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are wellunderstood concerns about emotional and mental health Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Moving on to perinatal mental health this morning I hosted a roundtable with the NSPCC where we heard about lots of good practice that is going on in terms of supporting new mothers and their families in this period but I wonder if you can tell the committee what you are doing as a Government to make sure that there is consistent perinatal support for all women across Wales in what is a difficult time for any new mother let alone in a pandemic Vaughan Gething AM: We continue again to provide our perinatal mental health service That is not been stopped either We have also been looking at how that is provided on a phone or online basis where possible because again the same concerns exist about physical contact with people So we are looking to make sure that the progress is not lost that we have made We know there is more to go So the service may have changed but it still absolutely exists And again part of the challenge in all of this is about the pause or the interruption in work to create the inpatient capacity that I have previously committed to So I want to understand what that really means but again the problem is at this point in the pandemic I can not give you an answer about what that means for that inpatient provision We are still committed to it but I am concerned about the time frame—that is partly about the length and the extent But again I am really impressed by the continuing commitment of our staff to deliver this service for women in what is a particularly uncertain time It is difficult enough in terms of the challenge in terms of perinatal mental health in normal times about people being prepared to come forward and then receiving the sort of response they would want and even more so now Lynne Neagle AM: Is the Welsh Government aware that there is apparently been a decrease in the numbers of women being willing to look at mother and baby unit provision and will you be taking that into account in your planning ? Because obviously we would not want people to think that was because of a lack of need it is down to fear and the lockdown Vaughan Gething AM: Yes we are aware there is been a reduction in people wanting to make use of the service—or being prepared to make use of the service is probably a better phrase—because we know that is the same with a range of other areas There are not fewer people having strokes than there were at this period of time last year the reason why the figures are different is the way that people are behaving because of their concerns about coronavirus So I certainly would not be using this period of time to plan for the need that exists for a facility that we want to create So I am happy to give that assurance Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you The next questions are from Suzy Davies","Lynne Neagle pointed out that due to the outbreak of the pandemic, more people reported depression and committed suicide. To deal with the harsh problem, they might have to carry out a review over the accidental mortality through the period. At the same time, Vaughan Gething suggested that even if most public services were shut down, the mental care, especially the perinatal mental health service, could not be stopped, just in order to support the vulnerable people." "Lynne Neagle AM: and we are going to come onto childrens rights But as you know Minister the prevention of young suicide is a because that is very close to my heart Can I ask what assessment the Welsh Government has made of an increase in suicide amongst children and young people during this pandemic and because of this pandemic ? Vaughan Gething AM: Apart from the general concern that I have expressed on mental health generally we are already investigating we are having a— We have commissioned through the Government the delivery unit to work with the national advisory group including Dr Ann John and other people to review the current unexpected deaths during the start of the pandemic here in Wales because we want to try to understand the wider concerns about the potential effects of the restrictions on the mental health and wellbeing of children and young people and if that is leading to a spike in suicide or not So that is why we have commissioned that review to be carried out with the current numbers of unexpected deaths that we have so we are able then to provide a report to understand where we are My understanding is that we should have a report on that review before the end of this month and obviously I know the committee ’ s got an interest so if it is helpful we can write to you once we have had a chance to receive the report and to look at it Lynne Neagle AM: Yes please Thank you In terms of provision of crisis care then how has that been impacted by the pandemic ? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment ? Vaughan Gething AM: Yes they continue to be available We still have sevendayaweek crisis care We have made clear that mental health services including those for children and young people are essential services to be provided They are not services to be scaled down They were not part of the series of measures that I stopped within the health service on 13 March We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are wellunderstood concerns about emotional and mental health","When talking about the evaluations on the increasing suicide crimes during the COVID-19, Vaughan Gething said that in order to prevent more tragedies, they had been offering mental health care for the people. Even if most public service had to be shut down during the outbreak, the staff at the crisis help continued to be available. In addition, they had a seven-day-a-week crisis care, which they hoped that could also be a long-term service to help people in need even after this particular period." "Lynne Neagle AM: Yes please Thank you In terms of provision of crisis care then how has that been impacted by the pandemic ? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment ? Vaughan Gething AM: Yes they continue to be available We still have sevendayaweek crisis care We have made clear that mental health services including those for children and young people are essential services to be provided They are not services to be scaled down They were not part of the series of measures that I stopped within the health service on 13 March We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are wellunderstood concerns about emotional and mental health Lynne Neagle AM: thank you Moving on to perinatal mental health this morning I hosted a roundtable with the NSPCC where we heard about lots of good practice that is going on in terms of supporting new mothers and their families in this period but I wonder if you can tell the committee what you are doing as a Government to make sure that there is consistent perinatal support for all women across Wales in what is a difficult time for any new mother let alone in a pandemic Vaughan Gething AM: We continue again to provide our perinatal mental health service That is not been stopped either We have also been looking at how that is provided on a phone or online basis where possible because again the same concerns exist about physical contact with people So we are looking to make sure that the progress is not lost that we have made We know there is more to go So the service may have changed but it still absolutely exists And again part of the challenge in all of this is about the pause or the interruption in work to create the inpatient capacity that I have previously committed to So I want to understand what that really means but again the problem is at this point in the pandemic I can not give you an answer about what that means for that inpatient provision We are still committed to it but I am concerned about the time frame—that is partly about the length and the extent But again I am really impressed by the continuing commitment of our staff to deliver this service for women in what is a particularly uncertain time It is difficult enough in terms of the challenge in terms of perinatal mental health in normal times about people being prepared to come forward and then receiving the sort of response they would want and even more so now Lynne Neagle AM: Is the Welsh Government aware that there is apparently been a decrease in the numbers of women being willing to look at mother and baby unit provision and will you be taking that into account in your planning ? Because obviously we would not want people to think that was because of a lack of need it is down to fear and the lockdown Vaughan Gething AM: Yes we are aware there is been a reduction in people wanting to make use of the service—or being prepared to make use of the service is probably a better phrase—because we know that is the same with a range of other areas There are not fewer people having strokes than there were at this period of time last year the reason why the figures are different is the way that people are behaving because of their concerns about coronavirus So I certainly would not be using this period of time to plan for the need that exists for a facility that we want to create So I am happy to give that assurance Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you The next questions are from Suzy Davies","Besides the crisis care, Vaughan Gething also claimed that they did not stop the perinatal mental health service either. However, there were still some problems. For example, because of the shut down of many public services, there might be not enough inpatient care for the pregnant, and less women were willing to resort to such service during the outbreak. Therefore, apart from providing enough inpatient care like the hospital beds, they would also pay attention to how to encourage the mothers to enjoy their service." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much The next questions then are from Dawn Bowden on safeguarding and child protection Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair and thank you Deputy Minister because one of the questions I was going to ask was around some of the work that you have been doing with the third sector on safeguarding and child protection and I think you have covered that But what I am particularly keen to find out is how you are monitoring the impact of coronavirus on child protection and safeguarding in the round I know the health Minister raised this as a concern in Plenary only recently and it is really how we are monitoring it what concerns have been identified and how we are going to start to tackle some of those Julie Morgan AM: Yes Thank you very much Dawn for that question Obviously it is difficult to monitor if there is not easy access to the children that we are referring to and that is why we have been trying to encourage the vulnerable children to go into school or childcare settings And there is been a lot of encouragement for that happen The Minister the director of education and the director of social services sent out a joint letter recently to all the local authorities asking them to try to encourage the vulnerable children and the families to get the children to go to school In fact we have now got 890 vulnerable children attending school settings and that is the highest number that we have had at all since the opening of the scheme But it is still only a tiny drop in the ocean But it is very good and it is progress that the numbers attending are now going up But of course there are a lot of children who are not attending school and the social services are not necessarily seeing There has been a drop in safeguarding referrals to social services Those numbers are now beginning to go up but there certainly was a significant drop which is a great deal of concern One local authority in fact reported a drop of 27 per cent in terms of safeguarding referrals compared to this time last year So I issued a written statement on 1 May setting out the work taken forward under our crossdepartmental vulnerable children young people and safeguarding work stream and encouraging people to report any safeguarding concerns there are Because obviously we are dependent on the public authorities—you know schools and health services—to report any concerns and at the moment obviously they are not there to report them So we have made this public appeal for everyone to look out for each other and I was very interested in what Siân Gwenllian told me about what was being done in Anglesey in terms of sending out a message via social media to get people to look and listen and to raise their concerns because obviously safeguarding is the concern of everybody in the community But I think that we are reassured in terms of our contact with the local authorities that they are in fact keeping close touch as far as they possibly can with all the children that are vulnerable For those where it is very critical facetoface contact is still taking place and there are imaginative ways of trying to keep in touch with all the other children and families So it is a difficult situation and we are concerned about it but I think as much as possible is being done Lynne Neagle AM: Jean you wanted to come in on that Professor Jean White: Just to add to what the Deputy Minister was saying the health visiting service has not been stopped or stepped back It has consolidated some of the ways that it does the Healthy Child Wales Programme but for those families that are identified as having particular need or have children that are particularly vulnerable all the normal contacts have been maintained so they are not unseen to the normal health visiting service That covers both Flying Start and general health visiting areas Thank you Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Jean for that and Deputy Minister would there be any value at this point in actually revisiting the current Welsh Government definition and guidance around vulnerable children in terms of who we identify as vulnerable ? Because this opens up a whole new group of children that are not necessarily known to services but can still be vulnerable Soit is just looking at the current guidance that we have Do you think that needs revisiting at all ? Julie Morgan AM: The definition of vulnerable children and young people includes those with a social worker and with statements of special educational needs and the most vulnerable of these should be prioritised But we have now looked at this again and we have set out an expanded definition and we intend to publish that this week This does include discretion for local authorities to have some flexibility and to be able to offer a place for those who may be on the edge of receiving care and support if they are known to be vulnerable by the school or by family support services Because obviously the children that we know about we know about but there are those other children who may be on the edge of care—the children that we have been trying very hard as part of our policies in the Welsh Government to keep with their families with a lot of support Those are the ones that we also want to support So we are giving discretion to the local authorities in order to have a degree of flexibility and that will be published this week Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Thank you Chair Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you We are going to move on now then to talk about lookedafter children and children on the edge of care with questions from Janet FinchSaunders Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair Can you set out the impact the coronavirus emergency has had on the care system including edgeofcare services and where have there been areas of concern ? Julie Morgan AM: Well local authorities have obviously had to change their working practices in response to the COVID emergency so a redambergreen rating risk assessment was adopted by all local authorities at the start of the pandemic to ensure that vulnerable children and families receive the right way of receiving services and the frequency of contact from the services This is being dealt with on a casebycase basis so every case that is known is being RAG rated and services are being linked to that Also there is very close contact between Welsh Government officials and the local authorities There are weekly meetings between officials and the heads of the childrens services I can not speak too highly really about the amount of support and mutual work that has been going on We have been assured that there have been no significant increases in the numbers of lookedafter children and the number of placement breaks are minimal The other interesting good point is the children services workforce remains at 90 per cent plus and obviously that is a great testimony to the dedication of the workforce So there is very close contact The children are all being monitored individually and I think in the circumstances we are all doing what we possibly can I know that Albert Heaney is able probably to respond in more detail to the contacts if you would like to have that Lynne Neagle AM: I think we will move on to the next section Can I remind everyone again : sharp focused questions and concise answers ? Janet Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thanks How is Welsh Government ensuring that vulnerable children have access to the necessary technology to maintain contact with their social workers and other support workers and networks ? Julie Morgan AM: It is normal practice to ensure that children and families do have appropriate access to technology to keep in touch with social workers so that is part of our normal practice We are very keen as a Welsh Government that no children are left behind in their education during this period So last month as you will know the Minister for Education announced £3 million of funding to help digitally excluded learners so that they have got access to the internet so that they can fully participate in online learning So we do normally ensure that they have got digital contact for social workers Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Can you set out the picture regarding childrens residential care ? What are the challenges these care settings are facing and have any childrens homes closed ? Julie Morgan AM: Residential childrens homes are not really reporting any particularly difficult issues and certainly they have been able to resolve any issues that have happened So I am very pleased to report that We obviously expect all children in residential care to be supported and to keep contact with their families and with their siblings and that is going on although it may be by technology rather than face to face We know that some young people have found the social distancing a challenge and I think it is easy for us to understand that they have found that quite difficult So there have been a few issues related to that but where that has happened local authorities have been able to resolve that on a casebycase basis and really there are not any major issues In terms of residential care Hillside is functioning well—no reporting issues The staffing levels are normal There are fewer children and young people there so in fact there is been an opportunity to give a great deal of attention to the children and I think we have had very good reports about how that has happened So I am absolutely reassured by our officials here that everything is as well as it could be I also meet with the childrens commissioner once a week who is an independent source and she said when I met her last week Well as far as we know it is all good news So I do not think we have any concerns at the moment about the residential care Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Moving on to foster care how is Welsh Government working with local authorities to meet the challenges set out by the Association of Fostering and Adoption Cymru and its fostering guidelines ? Julie Morgan AM: We have worked with the fostering organisations We have had close communications with them and we have supported AFA Cymru to develop guidance for foster carers and that guidance has been very strongly welcomed across the sector We are working with the third sector I think I mentioned before specific issues such as support for fostering services and of course care leavers The Fostering Network has extended its helpline hours and of course Voices from Care—I mentioned them before—have developed this particular offer of support for care leavers I have been reassured as well from Voices from Care that the young people appear to be more stable now—that they have contact with But that is online help for them So we have had quite a lot of contact with the fostering services Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So the final point on that then : the Fostering Network and others as you know have called for foster parents who can temporarily no longer foster due to the current virus emergency to be paid a retainer with all foster carers receiving extra financial support for additional expenses What is your position on this please ? Julie Morgan AM: Well we have not had any specific representations from local authorities asking for support for foster carers but some local authorities have paid retainers and some people I believe have increased the amount of money that they are paying They have also given support for various activities and things—have helped sometimes I think with broadband access and that sort of issue And obviously foster carers who do require additional support should be approaching their local authorities or the independent fostering agency Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Albert I just wanted to check there was not anything you wanted to add please Albert Heaney: Thank you very much Chair I think the only thing to add was relating to monitoring The Minister has indicated that we are speaking weekly with heads of childrens services and we do now have a data collection that is been implemented to capture the critical data in relation to the childrens services So that will assist us in our monitoring arrangements going forward Thank you Chair","The group mentioned that the vulnerable children and adequate social support should be carried out through the outbreak of the pandemic to protect them from infection or other mental and physical problems. The situation seemed awkward. However, fortunately, the group found that there were still enough staff available to offer mental support to those children. In terms of the children in foster, they thought the key problem at present was to ensure their living environment in the foster homes." "Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair and thank you Deputy Minister because one of the questions I was going to ask was around some of the work that you have been doing with the third sector on safeguarding and child protection and I think you have covered that But what I am particularly keen to find out is how you are monitoring the impact of coronavirus on child protection and safeguarding in the round I know the health Minister raised this as a concern in Plenary only recently and it is really how we are monitoring it what concerns have been identified and how we are going to start to tackle some of those Julie Morgan AM: Yes Thank you very much Dawn for that question Obviously it is difficult to monitor if there is not easy access to the children that we are referring to and that is why we have been trying to encourage the vulnerable children to go into school or childcare settings And there is been a lot of encouragement for that happen The Minister the director of education and the director of social services sent out a joint letter recently to all the local authorities asking them to try to encourage the vulnerable children and the families to get the children to go to school In fact we have now got 890 vulnerable children attending school settings and that is the highest number that we have had at all since the opening of the scheme But it is still only a tiny drop in the ocean But it is very good and it is progress that the numbers attending are now going up But of course there are a lot of children who are not attending school and the social services are not necessarily seeing There has been a drop in safeguarding referrals to social services Those numbers are now beginning to go up but there certainly was a significant drop which is a great deal of concern One local authority in fact reported a drop of 27 per cent in terms of safeguarding referrals compared to this time last year So I issued a written statement on 1 May setting out the work taken forward under our crossdepartmental vulnerable children young people and safeguarding work stream and encouraging people to report any safeguarding concerns there are Because obviously we are dependent on the public authorities—you know schools and health services—to report any concerns and at the moment obviously they are not there to report them So we have made this public appeal for everyone to look out for each other and I was very interested in what Siân Gwenllian told me about what was being done in Anglesey in terms of sending out a message via social media to get people to look and listen and to raise their concerns because obviously safeguarding is the concern of everybody in the community But I think that we are reassured in terms of our contact with the local authorities that they are in fact keeping close touch as far as they possibly can with all the children that are vulnerable For those where it is very critical facetoface contact is still taking place and there are imaginative ways of trying to keep in touch with all the other children and families So it is a difficult situation and we are concerned about it but I think as much as possible is being done Lynne Neagle AM: Jean you wanted to come in on that Professor Jean White: Just to add to what the Deputy Minister was saying the health visiting service has not been stopped or stepped back It has consolidated some of the ways that it does the Healthy Child Wales Programme but for those families that are identified as having particular need or have children that are particularly vulnerable all the normal contacts have been maintained so they are not unseen to the normal health visiting service That covers both Flying Start and general health visiting areas Thank you Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Jean for that and Deputy Minister would there be any value at this point in actually revisiting the current Welsh Government definition and guidance around vulnerable children in terms of who we identify as vulnerable ? Because this opens up a whole new group of children that are not necessarily known to services but can still be vulnerable Soit is just looking at the current guidance that we have Do you think that needs revisiting at all ? Julie Morgan AM: The definition of vulnerable children and young people includes those with a social worker and with statements of special educational needs and the most vulnerable of these should be prioritised But we have now looked at this again and we have set out an expanded definition and we intend to publish that this week This does include discretion for local authorities to have some flexibility and to be able to offer a place for those who may be on the edge of receiving care and support if they are known to be vulnerable by the school or by family support services Because obviously the children that we know about we know about but there are those other children who may be on the edge of care—the children that we have been trying very hard as part of our policies in the Welsh Government to keep with their families with a lot of support Those are the ones that we also want to support So we are giving discretion to the local authorities in order to have a degree of flexibility and that will be published this week","When discussing the priority to take care of the vulnerable children, Julie Morgan mentioned that they would set out an expanded definition for the local authorities to have a clear idea about who and where to lay the stress. What's more, according to her claim, they had done a good job to guarantee that the children's mental states would be individually monitored. As for those staff who would monitor the children, they should hold a meeting every week to follow up with each other and check whether there occurred something new worth attention." "Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Can you set out the picture regarding childrens residential care ? What are the challenges these care settings are facing and have any childrens homes closed ? Julie Morgan AM: Residential childrens homes are not really reporting any particularly difficult issues and certainly they have been able to resolve any issues that have happened So I am very pleased to report that We obviously expect all children in residential care to be supported and to keep contact with their families and with their siblings and that is going on although it may be by technology rather than face to face We know that some young people have found the social distancing a challenge and I think it is easy for us to understand that they have found that quite difficult So there have been a few issues related to that but where that has happened local authorities have been able to resolve that on a casebycase basis and really there are not any major issues In terms of residential care Hillside is functioning well—no reporting issues The staffing levels are normal There are fewer children and young people there so in fact there is been an opportunity to give a great deal of attention to the children and I think we have had very good reports about how that has happened So I am absolutely reassured by our officials here that everything is as well as it could be I also meet with the childrens commissioner once a week who is an independent source and she said when I met her last week Well as far as we know it is all good news So I do not think we have any concerns at the moment about the residential care Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Moving on to foster care how is Welsh Government working with local authorities to meet the challenges set out by the Association of Fostering and Adoption Cymru and its fostering guidelines ? Julie Morgan AM: We have worked with the fostering organisations We have had close communications with them and we have supported AFA Cymru to develop guidance for foster carers and that guidance has been very strongly welcomed across the sector We are working with the third sector I think I mentioned before specific issues such as support for fostering services and of course care leavers The Fostering Network has extended its helpline hours and of course Voices from Care—I mentioned them before—have developed this particular offer of support for care leavers I have been reassured as well from Voices from Care that the young people appear to be more stable now—that they have contact with But that is online help for them So we have had quite a lot of contact with the fostering services Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So the final point on that then : the Fostering Network and others as you know have called for foster parents who can temporarily no longer foster due to the current virus emergency to be paid a retainer with all foster carers receiving extra financial support for additional expenses What is your position on this please ? Julie Morgan AM: Well we have not had any specific representations from local authorities asking for support for foster carers but some local authorities have paid retainers and some people I believe have increased the amount of money that they are paying They have also given support for various activities and things—have helped sometimes I think with broadband access and that sort of issue And obviously foster carers who do require additional support should be approaching their local authorities or the independent fostering agency","According to Julie Morgan, the group had been in close cooperation with the fostering organizations in Welsh to guarantee the children in need. To people's relief, the fostering organizations were running well with enough staff and equipment during the pandemic so that the children could enjoy good care there. What's more, the fostering organizations prolonged their helpline time in case some emergencies would happen. Other support measures, say, the fund for the foster carers, would be followed up." "Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much And the next questions then are from Suzy Davies Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Chair I just wanted to have a quick answer from probably the Minister I think about the primary legislation and the regulations that followed about which childrens rights impact assessments have been done Have any been done and can they be shared with the committee if they have ? Sorry Deputy Minister—my mistake Julie Morgan AM: Well it is been a very difficult time as you appreciate in terms of having to make legislation very quickly and it has not been possible to do the impact assessments that we would normally do However I am very pleased to say that we are actually launching a survey of children We are going to be launching it next week And this is to try to get from children their views of what is happened what we have been doing and their views on the whole COVID19 situation So we are doing this in conjunction with the childrens commissioner and with Young Wales and with the Youth Parliament So this is an online survey that we hope will be going out to thousands of children and we will get their response in terms of what are the important issues that have arisen for them what they feel about what is happened during this period what they feel about the way that we have dealt with the schools the way that they have had to cope in not going school and being at home for so long And so we are trying to get feedback from young people So I am very pleased that we are doing that but in terms of an impact assessment it has been very difficult as I am sure you can imagine to be able to do those at these times I think that Albert wants to come in on that Suzy Davies AM: Yes because I will pursue that in a sec Albert Heaney: Thank you Thank you Chair and I think Nicola indicated before me so apologies Nicola Just to say for the committee really importantly that we have not introduced any easements in relation to childrens services legislation I think that is really quite crucial So from a Welsh context the standards that are in place do remain so therefore there would not have been a necessity for us to do a childrens rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation I think that is particularly a strong point to us in Wales both in terms of safeguarding arrangements but also ensuring that childrens rights are protected at a crucial time Nicola Edwards: Thanks In terms of childcare and education we are obviously looking at the provisions under the coronavirus Act to allow us to maybe ease some of the statutory requirements and we are going to be undertaking a full suite of impact assessments on those Obviously the coronavirus Act itself was UK Government legislation and they ran their own impact assessments but in terms of how we implement it in the childcare and education space—and I think Albert was just saying the same thing—we definitely will be looking at those impacts in terms of going forward Suzy Davies AM: Well just to come back on that then are you saying to me that as a result of the various coronavirus regulations that we have had no assessments for childrens needs have been postponed cancelled or done very quickly online rather than in person ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I think as Albert said that there was no relaxation of regulation for childrens social care You know that is—there have not been any in Wales Suzy Davies AM: No but that is what— There is no relaxation but what is happening in practice ? We are down on staff across all our councils and in our third sectors—who is doing the childrens needs assessments particularly for young carers ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I— Albert can you answer that ? Albert Heaney: I think the first thing to say to the committee is that going back we took a very strong line at the beginning that we were not going to introduce easements in requirements to childrens social services Of course through the way that practitioners and social work practitioners have to operate they are having to operate through a different time So assessments are still taking place for child protection and safeguarding concerns assessments are still taking place and especially in relation to—as you mentioned—young carers to support their needs So arrangements—Inaudible But they are having to be slightly differently done—so some of the technology and keeping in contact and keeping those visits So we have used for example the St Davids Day fund to make sure that care leavers are well supported in terms of having contact and are accessible and able to engage as well So we are having to be a little bit more—and social services departments are having to be a little bit more—innovative in the use of technology in the way that they have engaged as well But personal visits are taking place and visits especially as the Minister mentioned earlier on—they actually individually assess each case to determine the frequency of visits to make sure that those contacts are maintained with children at a critical time Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I do not want to take this much further but personal visits and social distancing could be slightly problematic I just want to finish with this one question if I may We have had recommendations from the Carers Trust or Carers Trust Wales Have they been accepted by Government and is it those that are driving the agenda of the task and finish group that you announced the other day Deputy Minister ? Julie Morgan AM: Well those will certainly be considered by the task and finish group I have had a letter from the Carers Trust about those issues and we are setting up this group as you know and we will be looking at those issues in the group Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Any steal on when that might report ? Julie Morgan AM: I do not have that at the moment Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe we could have a note on that Deputy Minister Can I just say we are running short of time ? We did start late so if the Ministers are happy we will carry on until 210 pm—310 pm—if that is And the next questions are from Siân Gwenllian Hold on a sec Siân we have lost translation again Can we just see what can be done to get the translation back ? Sorry Siân Is there anyone who can help with the translation ? There you go Siân Thank you Sian Gwenllian AM: You will know Deputy Minister—because we have discussed this in private session—my major concerns with regard to the childcare sector and what kind of childcare sector we will have at the end of this crisis as families start to return to the workplace There are still some childcare providers who are falling between the cracks and are not receiving financial support Do you agree—are there people who are still not being supported and why is not the Welsh Government able to provide that support for everyone in the childcare sector ? Julie Morgan AM: Thank you Siân for that question And I know that we have had a discussion about this before Basically we are aware that there are some sectors in the childcare sector that do fall through some of the loops We have guaranteed that we will pay the money for the childcare offer for three months So that is guaranteed to them and they are able to take advantage of the Governments job retainer scheme but that does mean that there is a problem as I think we have discussed before of the double funding issue and that is something that we have been trying to resolve and there have been discussions with the Treasury in Whitehall about ways forward on this I am going to ask Nicola to come in in a minute because she is much more up to date with the discussions about that but so far I do not think very much progress has been made on that But we are looking to see if there are any other ways that we can get help to the childcare sector and I am actually following this meeting with a meeting with the Deputy Minister for equality and chief whip who is responsible for the voluntary sector because obviously many of the groups that we are talking about would come under the voluntary sector because they have voluntary committees but they fall between many stools because they rent premises rather than own premises and they do not have high turnovers that would qualify them for some of these grants So perhaps I could ask Nicola to come in to expand on that","In terms of their evaluations on the legitimacy of the children's rights, protection and demands, it was said that the group was launching a survey of children to see what the children were thinking over the outbreak of the COVID-19. The survey was carried online, asking mainly about whether the students were willing to go back to school and how they view other related problems. However, there were still indeed some drawbacks of their evaluations over the coronavirus Act. For example, the group thought that they should go further and view the laws from a future perspective, and assess each case individually more closely." "Suzy Davies AM: Thank you Chair I just wanted to have a quick answer from probably the Minister I think about the primary legislation and the regulations that followed about which childrens rights impact assessments have been done Have any been done and can they be shared with the committee if they have ? Sorry Deputy Minister—my mistake Julie Morgan AM: Well it is been a very difficult time as you appreciate in terms of having to make legislation very quickly and it has not been possible to do the impact assessments that we would normally do However I am very pleased to say that we are actually launching a survey of children We are going to be launching it next week And this is to try to get from children their views of what is happened what we have been doing and their views on the whole COVID19 situation So we are doing this in conjunction with the childrens commissioner and with Young Wales and with the Youth Parliament So this is an online survey that we hope will be going out to thousands of children and we will get their response in terms of what are the important issues that have arisen for them what they feel about what is happened during this period what they feel about the way that we have dealt with the schools the way that they have had to cope in not going school and being at home for so long And so we are trying to get feedback from young people So I am very pleased that we are doing that but in terms of an impact assessment it has been very difficult as I am sure you can imagine to be able to do those at these times I think that Albert wants to come in on that Suzy Davies AM: Yes because I will pursue that in a sec Albert Heaney: Thank you Thank you Chair and I think Nicola indicated before me so apologies Nicola Just to say for the committee really importantly that we have not introduced any easements in relation to childrens services legislation I think that is really quite crucial So from a Welsh context the standards that are in place do remain so therefore there would not have been a necessity for us to do a childrens rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation I think that is particularly a strong point to us in Wales both in terms of safeguarding arrangements but also ensuring that childrens rights are protected at a crucial time","When discussing the evaluations on the legitimacy of the children's rights, protection and demands, Julie Morgan mentioned that they had carried out an online survey to look into the children's thoughts and demands over the pandemic.The survey involved what did the children do through the lockdown, what they thought about the measures that Welsh government and their schools had taken, and whether they were looking for the reschooling. With those questions, the group was meant to have a more overall idea of the children's rights and demands in order to care for them better during this period." "Albert Heaney: Thank you Thank you Chair and I think Nicola indicated before me so apologies Nicola Just to say for the committee really importantly that we have not introduced any easements in relation to childrens services legislation I think that is really quite crucial So from a Welsh context the standards that are in place do remain so therefore there would not have been a necessity for us to do a childrens rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation I think that is particularly a strong point to us in Wales both in terms of safeguarding arrangements but also ensuring that childrens rights are protected at a crucial time Nicola Edwards: Thanks In terms of childcare and education we are obviously looking at the provisions under the coronavirus Act to allow us to maybe ease some of the statutory requirements and we are going to be undertaking a full suite of impact assessments on those Obviously the coronavirus Act itself was UK Government legislation and they ran their own impact assessments but in terms of how we implement it in the childcare and education space—and I think Albert was just saying the same thing—we definitely will be looking at those impacts in terms of going forward Suzy Davies AM: Well just to come back on that then are you saying to me that as a result of the various coronavirus regulations that we have had no assessments for childrens needs have been postponed cancelled or done very quickly online rather than in person ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I think as Albert said that there was no relaxation of regulation for childrens social care You know that is—there have not been any in Wales Suzy Davies AM: No but that is what— There is no relaxation but what is happening in practice ? We are down on staff across all our councils and in our third sectors—who is doing the childrens needs assessments particularly for young carers ? Julie Morgan AM: Well I— Albert can you answer that ? Albert Heaney: I think the first thing to say to the committee is that going back we took a very strong line at the beginning that we were not going to introduce easements in requirements to childrens social services Of course through the way that practitioners and social work practitioners have to operate they are having to operate through a different time So assessments are still taking place for child protection and safeguarding concerns assessments are still taking place and especially in relation to—as you mentioned—young carers to support their needs So arrangements—Inaudible But they are having to be slightly differently done—so some of the technology and keeping in contact and keeping those visits So we have used for example the St Davids Day fund to make sure that care leavers are well supported in terms of having contact and are accessible and able to engage as well So we are having to be a little bit more—and social services departments are having to be a little bit more—innovative in the use of technology in the way that they have engaged as well But personal visits are taking place and visits especially as the Minister mentioned earlier on—they actually individually assess each case to determine the frequency of visits to make sure that those contacts are maintained with children at a critical time","When it comes to the evaluations on the legitimacy of the children's rights, protection and demands, Nicola Edwards mentioned that they had been working on the coronavirus Act to see if they could ease some of the statutory requirements, further helping the childcare and education affairs in the future. Then Albert Heaney went on to elaborate that it was because that they were not meant to include any easements in children's social services at first, however, it was obvious at present that at least for those carers, they had to break the law of social distance to keep looking after the children in need. Therefore, they were calling for the possibility of losing the law for those who did have something to do with childcare and education." "Grad A: And my original intention was like we would just delete them as we needed more space but unfortunately we are in the position where we have to deal with all the meeting data pause all at once in a lot of different ways PhD F: Oh there s a lot of transcribers too Grad A: there are a lot of transcribers so all of those need to be expanded and then people are doing chunking and I want to do the permission forms so I want those to be live so there s a lot of data that has to be around And Jane was going to talk to Dave Johnson about it One of the things I was thinking is we we just got these hundred alright excuse me ten SPARC Blade SUN Blades Professor B: Did they come in ? PhD F: They came in the other day Grad A: They came in but they are not set up yet And so it seems to me we could hang scratch disk on those pause because they will be in the machine room they will be on the fast connection to the rest of the machines And if we just need un backed up space we could just hang disks off them PhD F: Well is there Why not just hang them off of Abbott is there a Grad A: Because there s no more room in the disk racks on Abbott Professor B: Were not we going to get Well maybe it should get another rack PhD D: But you still need to store the disks somehow Grad A: Well but the SUN Blades have spare drive bays PhD D: Oh you mean you put them inside the pizza boxes for the Grad A: Cuz the SUN these SUN Blades take commodity hard drives So you can just go out and buy a PC hard drive and stick it in Professor B: But if Abbott is going to be our disk server it it file server comment it seems like we would want to get it a second disk rack or something PhD D: Plus we are talking about buying a second dis file server Grad A: Well I mean there are lots of long term solutions What I m looking for is where do we s expand the next meeting ? PhD D: I see pause Oh I see Professor B: Well for the next meeting you might be out of luck with those ten might not you ? you know Dave Johnson is gone for like ten days Grad A: Oh I did not know he had left already PhD D: You mean he will not set up the mmm Grad E: How much space do you need for these ? Professor B: I do not know what his schedule is Grad A: You we need about a gig per meeting Professor B: I m just saying he s gone Grad E: I have I have an eighteen gig drive hanging off of my computer Grad A: Alright ! What s your computer s name ? Professor B: You had an eighteen gigabyte drive Grad E: I had Well it s about I think there s about twelve gig left Grad A: So it And you have an X drives installed ? OK Grad E: So I did not realize it was so critical Grad A: And you are o you are offering ? Grad E: I mean I m not doing anything on it right now until I get new meetings to transcri or that are new transcriptions coming in I really can not do anything not that I can not do anything I jus PhD F: I I jus I just gave Thilo some about ten gigs the last ten gigs of space that there was on on Abbott And So but that But Grad A: Which one was that X pause G ? X pause G ? PhD D: That s also where we store the The Hub five training set waveforms Grad A: But that will not be getting any bigger PhD F: I do not think that s on XG On XG is only Carmen and Du and Stephane s disk PhD D: But I ve also been storing I ve been storing the feature files there and I guess I can s start deleting some because we now know what the best features are and we will not be using the old ones anymore Grad E: I have a lot of space though PhD F: I do I do not think it was on XG PhD D: Oh that is XA Oh that s X PhD C: Is not that XH ? Grad E: I have a lot of space and it s not it s n There s very little not for long But I mean it s not going f PhD D: Oh no I m sorry Grad E: It s not being used often at all PhD C: But I m using XH H too Grad A: it s probably Probably only about four gig is on X on your X drive but we will definitely take it up if you PhD D: I think you are right It s XH and D Grad E: I think it s about four or five gig cuz I have four meetings on there PhD D: The b I m also using DG I got that confused Grad A: OK so that will get us through the next couple days Professor B: We need We need another gigaquad There should I d There should just be a b I should have a button Grad A: The `` more disk space `` button ? Professor B: Just press Press each meeting saying `` we need more disk space `` `` this week `` Skip the rest of the conversation PhD F: Well we ve collected so far something like sixty five meetings Professor B: And And how much does each meeting take ? PhD F: And it s about a gig uncompressed PhD C: It s It s a little bit more as I usually do not do not uncompress the all of the PZM and the PDA things PhD F: Is a little more ? Right so if you uncompressed everything it s even more PhD C: It s One point five or something PhD F: YOU compressed how much are they ? Like Grad A: Half a gig For all of them PhD F: So we are definitely are storing you know all of those So there s what thirty some gig of just meetings so far ? Professor B: So so So maybe there s a hundred pause gig or something Or I mean Cuz we we have the uncompressed around also PhD F: Right Well we We have not uncompressed all the meetings but Professor B: Well I mean it s the they really are cheap I mean it s just a question of figuring out where they should be and hanging them but But we could You know if you want to get four disks get four disks I mean it s it s small I mean these things ar are just a few hundred dollars PhD F: Well I sent that message out to I guess you and Dave asking for if we could get some disk I s I sent this out a a day ago Grad A: And put it where ? PhD F: but and Dave did not respond so I don I do not know how the whole process works I mean does he just go out and get them and if it s OK and So I was assuming he was going to take over pause that But he s probably too busy given that he s leaving Professor B: I think you need a direct conversation with him And just say an e just ask him that you know wha what should you do And in my answer back was `` are you sure you just want one ? `` So I mean I think pause that what you want to do is plan ahead a little bit and figure `` well here s what we pi figure on doing for the next few months `` Grad A: Wa a I know what they want The sysadmins would prefer to have one external drive per machine So they do not want to stack up external drives pause And then they want everything else in the machine room So the question is where are you going to hang them ? PhD F: Mm I do not know what the space situation is in the machine room Professor B: Right So this is a question that s pretty hard to solve without talking to Dave PhD F: I think part of the reason why Dave can not get the the new machines up is because he does not have room in the machine room right now PhD D: One One On One thing to in to t to do when you need to conserve space is PhD F: So he has to re arrange a bunch of stuff PhD D: I bet there are still some old like nine gig disks around and you can probably consolidate them onto larger disks and and you know recover the space Professor B: No I think Dave Dave knows all these things of course An and so he always has a a lot of plans of things that he s going to do to make things better in many ways an and runs out of time Grad A: But I I know that pause generally their first priority has been for backed up disk And so I think what he s been concentrating on is the back the pause back up system rather than on new disk Professor B: Well So But this this is a very specific question for me Basically we can easily get pause one to four disks I mean you just go out and get four and we ve got the money for it it s no big deal but the question is where they go and I do not think we can solve that here you just have to ask him PhD D: Maybe we can put some disks in the in that back room there To the machine that collects the data So then you could at least temporarily store stuff there Grad A: it s just It s not on the net so it s a little pause awkward PhD D: What do you mean it s not on the net ? Grad A: It s behind lots of fire walls that do not allow any services through except S S PhD D: Oh because it s because it s an ACIRI machine ? Grad A: And also on the list is to get it into the normal ICSI net but Who knows when that will happen ? PhD D: But that can not be that hard PhD F: That might be a good short term solution though Grad A: No the the problem with that apparently is that they do not currently have a wire running to that back room pause that goes anywhere near one of the ICSI routers So they actually have to run a wire somewhere Professor B: e again you know any one of these things is certainly not a big deal If there was a person dedicated to doing it they would happen pretty easily but it s it s jus every ever everybody everybody has a has Grad A: But Dave has to do all of them Professor B: Well all of us have long lists of different things we are doing But at any rate I think that there s a there s a longer term thing and there s immediate need and I think we need a a conversation with maybe maybe after after tea or something you and I can go down and and talk to him about it Just say `` wha you know what should we do right now ? `` PhD F: How long is David going to be gone ? Professor B: eleven days or something ? basically tomorrow and all of pause the week after Grad A: And that s all I have Professor B: Let s see The only oth thing other thing I was going to add was that I talked briefly to Mari and we had both been busy with other things so we have not really connected that much since the pause last meeting we had here but we agreed that we would have a telephone meeting the Friday after next And I I I wanted to make it after the next one of these meetings so something that we want to do next meeting is is to put together a kind of reasonable list for ourselves of what is it that we ve done I mean just sort of bulletize I mean o e do do I can I can dream up text but pause this is basically going to lead to the annual report So pause If w Grad A: This is the fifteenth ? So just a week from tomorrow ? Professor B: So we can This So that s an PhD D: Is this got to be in the morning ? Or Because you know I Fridays I have to leave like around two So if it could be before that would be be Professor B: No no but I I I do not need other folks for the meeting I can do it A A All I m saying is that on PhD D: Oh OK alright Oh I m sorry I misunderstood Professor B: so what I meant was on the me this meeting pause if I wa something I I I m making a major thing in the agenda is I want to help in getting together a list of what it is that we ve done so I can tell her","The participants learned that the storage disks had eventually arrived. They were waiting on the disks to be installed. Grad E volunteered storage space on their own computer for the meantime. The meetings were around 1.5 gigs uncompressed and .5 gigs compressed. So, the group needed substantial space. The professor encouraged the team members to talk to Dave, the person responsible for managing the organization's storage systems, and figure things out." "Grad E: I have I have an eighteen gig drive hanging off of my computer Grad A: Alright ! What s your computer s name ? Professor B: You had an eighteen gigabyte drive Grad E: I had Well it s about I think there s about twelve gig left Grad A: So it And you have an X drives installed ? OK Grad E: So I did not realize it was so critical Grad A: And you are o you are offering ? Grad E: I mean I m not doing anything on it right now until I get new meetings to transcri or that are new transcriptions coming in I really can not do anything not that I can not do anything I jus PhD F: I I jus I just gave Thilo some about ten gigs the last ten gigs of space that there was on on Abbott And So but that But Grad A: Which one was that X pause G ? X pause G ?",Grad E volunteered his 18 Gigabyte drive to the group. The drive had 12 gigabytes of memory and he was not using it for anything. "Grad A: so I want those to be live so there s a lot of data that has to be around And Jane was going to talk to Dave Johnson about it One of the things I was thinking is we we just got these hundred alright excuse me ten SPARC Blade SUN Blades Professor B: Did they come in ? PhD F: They came in the other day Grad A: They came in but they are not set up yet And so it seems to me we could hang scratch disk on those pause because they will be in the machine room they will be on the fast connection to the rest of the machines And if we just need un backed up space we could just hang disks off them PhD F: Well is there Why not just hang them off of Abbott is there a Grad A: Because there s no more room in the disk racks on Abbott Professor B: Were not we going to get Well maybe it should get another rack PhD D: But you still need to store the disks somehow Grad A: Well but the SUN Blades have spare drive bays PhD D: Oh you mean you put them inside the pizza boxes for the Grad A: Cuz the SUN these SUN Blades take commodity hard drives So you can just go out and buy a PC hard drive and stick it in Professor B: But if Abbott is going to be our disk server it it file server comment it seems like we would want to get it a second disk rack or something PhD D: Plus we are talking about buying a second dis file server Grad A: Well I mean there are lots of long term solutions What I m looking for is where do we s expand the next meeting ? PhD D: I see pause Oh I see Professor B: Well for the next meeting you might be out of luck with those ten might not you ? you know Dave Johnson is gone for like ten days Grad A: Oh I did not know he had left already","The group needed Dave Johnson to install the some one hundred SUN - Blades that had arrived and would help with storage. But Dave Johnson, the professor informed them, was leaving for ten days. The Professor informed the group that Dave was always busy and the group realized that there was no dedicated person who could help them." "PhD D: I thought you are OK Alright Mm Professor B: I think I have a pretty good idea but but and then the next day late in the day I will be having that that discussion with her PhD D: One thing I mean we in past meetings we had also a you know various variously talked about the work that w was happening sort of on the on the recognition side but is not necessarily related to meetings specifically So And I wondered whether we should maybe have a separate meeting and between you know whoever s interested in that because I feel that there s plenty of stuff to talk about but it would be sort of maybe the wrong place to do it in this meeting if Well it s that It s just going to be ver very boring for people who are not you know sort of really interested in the details of the recognition system Professor B: Well OK so how many how many people here would not be interested in in a meeting about recognition ? PhD D: Well I know Well Jane an Well you mean in a separate meeting or ha ha talking about it in this Grad A: No If we talked about it in this meeting PhD F: He s wondering how much overlap there will be PhD D: So Liz and Jane probably Professor B: OK so we are going to have a guy s meeting PhD D: if you want to put it that way PhD F: Good thing Liz is not here Grad E: Watch a ball game ? Professor B: real real real men `` Real men do decoding `` or something like that PhD F: Do not listen to this Liz PhD D: I mean it it s sort of I mean when when the talk is about data collection stuff sometimes I ve you know I I m bored So it s I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to i to to be you know If I cou you know this could Professor B: It s cuz pause y you have a So you need a better developed feminine side There s probably going to be a lot of `` bleeps `` in this meeting PhD D: not sure I want to Grad A: I would as comment I would guess Professor B: I think it must be pause nearing the end of the week I You know I I ve heard some comments about like this That m could be PhD D: And we do not have to do it every week We could do it every other week or so You know whatev or whenever we feel like we PhD F: Right I was Why do not we alternate this meeting every other week ? Grad A: Or just alternate the focus PhD F: Tha That s what I mean Grad A: so on even weeks have pause basic pause on data PhD D: I I Personally I would I m not in favor of more meetings Because PhD F: But I do I do not I mean a lot of times lately it seems like we do not really have enough for a full meeting on Meeting Recorder Grad A: Well except that we keep going for our full time PhD F: So if we did that Well cuz we get into these other topics PhD D: We feel We feel obligated to collect more data PhD F: So if we could alternate the focus of the meeting Grad A: Let s read digits and go Professor B: Why do not we just start with that PhD D: ummh comment ummh comment OK Professor B: And then if we find you know we are just not getting enough done there s all these topics not coming up then we can expand into another meeting But I I think that s a great idea So Let s chat about it with Liz and Jane pause when we get a chance see what they think and PhD F: that would be good I mean Andreas and I have various talks in the halls and there s lots of things you know details and stuff that would I think people would be interested in and I would you know where do we go from here kind of things and So it would be good Professor B: and you are you are attending pause the the front end meeting as well as the others so you have you have probably one of the best you and I I guess are the main ones who sort of see the bridge between the two We are doing recognition in both of them So PhD D: So So so we could talk a little bit about that now if if there s some time Grad A: No no that would be for next week PhD D: I jus So the latest result was that yot I tested the the sort of final version of the PLP configuration on development test data for for this year s Hub five test set","The team thought that they should not have everyone attend meetings on specific topics. For general catchup meetings like this, they thought it would make sense to alternate every two weeks. The team joked around about having a guys meeting, as one of the groups would not have any female members. They were mainly concerned with collecting more data through their own meeting recordings. Though, many of the meetings they were having for that purpose were shorter than they would have liked." "PhD D: Well I know Well Jane an Well you mean in a separate meeting or ha ha talking about it in this Grad A: No If we talked about it in this meeting PhD F: He s wondering how much overlap there will be PhD D: So Liz and Jane probably Professor B: OK so we are going to have a guy s meeting PhD D: if you want to put it that way PhD F: Good thing Liz is not here Grad E: Watch a ball game ? Professor B: real real real men `` Real men do decoding `` or something like that PhD F: Do not listen to this Liz PhD D: I mean it it s sort of I mean when when the talk is about data collection stuff sometimes I ve you know I I m bored So it s I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to i to to be you know If I cou you know this could Professor B: It s cuz pause y you have a So you need a better developed feminine side There s probably going to be a lot of `` bleeps `` in this meeting PhD D: not sure I want to Grad A: I would as comment I would guess Professor B: I think it must be pause nearing the end of the week I You know I I ve heard some comments about like this That m could be PhD D: And we do not have to do it every week We could do it every other week or so You know whatev or whenever we feel like we PhD F: Right I was Why do not we alternate this meeting every other week ? Grad A: Or just alternate the focus PhD F: Tha That s what I mean Grad A: so on even weeks have pause basic pause on data PhD D: I I Personally I would I m not in favor of more meetings Because PhD F: But I do I do not I mean a lot of times lately it seems like we do not really have enough for a full meeting on Meeting Recorder Grad A: Well except that we keep going for our full time PhD F: So if we did that Well cuz we get into these other topics PhD D: We feel We feel obligated to collect more data PhD F: So if we could alternate the focus of the meeting Grad A: Let s read digits and go Professor B: Why do not we just start with that PhD D: ummh comment ummh comment OK Professor B: And then if we find you know we are just not getting enough done there s all these topics not coming up then we can expand into another meeting But I I think that s a great idea So Let s chat about it with Liz and Jane pause when we get a chance see what they think and PhD F: that would be good I mean Andreas and I have various talks in the halls and there s lots of things you know details and stuff that would I think people would be interested in and I would you know where do we go from here kind of things and So it would be good Professor B: and you are you are attending pause the the front end meeting as well as the others so you have you have probably one of the best you and I I guess are the main ones who sort of see the bridge between the two We are doing recognition in both of them So",The professor polled the group on how many people would not be interested in meetings on recognition. He thought that they should at least try the smaller meetings and see what happens. "Professor B: OK so we are going to have a guy s meeting PhD D: if you want to put it that way PhD F: Good thing Liz is not here Grad E: Watch a ball game ? Professor B: real real real men `` Real men do decoding `` or something like that PhD F: Do not listen to this Liz PhD D: I mean it it s sort of I mean when when the talk is about data collection stuff sometimes I ve you know I I m bored So it s I c I can sympathize with them not wanting to i to to be you know If I cou you know this could Professor B: It s cuz pause y you have a So you need a better developed feminine side There s probably going to be a lot of `` bleeps `` in this meeting PhD D: not sure I want to","The team was joking about one meeting being a ""guys"" meeting because both the female members of the group would be in the other meeting. They also seemed to be using foul language and joked at all the bleeping it would entail in the transcription." "Project Manager: Well then the serious stuff We are we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally so but we do not know what exactly th i it is in dollars but twenty five Euros Our profit aim is worldwide fifty million Euros So I did not exactly calculate how much we have to sell we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so keep that in mind when we talk about our materials an f and stuff and marketing research Now then we all we can sit down and discuss what do we think about our current remote controls first about design about aim in the market etcetera ? Well we c we can sit down because presentation can wait We can take notes and Well who has some remarks about the current remote controls ? Please ? Industrial Designer: Well I I did not have to prepare anything about it is not it is it is not my task to talk about experience with current remote controls but Project Manager: Well just w we are four if we if we would just have one then Marketing: I think it is i am it is important to look at the remote controls of our competitors Get the good points try to merge them into one universal remote control On our corporate site I saw a new DVD player we are going to produce Maybe it is important to make it compatible with the DVD player Project Manager: That would be a nice idea yes Marketing: so you can use your television and your DVD player with the same remote control Furthermore it is important to make it acceptable for the whole world for different cultures maybe because we want to we want to well fifty million ? Project Manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit so Marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it Industrial Designer: No but the b the buttons have to have to have international recognisable buttons and and numbers and that every culture in people in every country can recognise","They want to keep the cost under 12.50 euros by controlling the materials, and they want to sell them internationally for 25 euros, with a target of 50 million euros worldwide. So they wanted the remote to be compatible with most TVS in the world, or at least all the TVS they make." "Marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it Industrial Designer: No but the b the buttons have to have to have international recognisable buttons and and numbers and that every culture in people in every country can recognise Project Manager: I will make notes and then maybe well I will put it in the project folder when I am done just now User Interface: I also think we should not add too many buttons Modern day remotes have too much buttons I think Project Manager: Y y you do not use the half of them that is that is Marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between DVD player and TV and make the other buttons multifunctional or something Industrial Designer: so it does not become too complicated with too much buttons and Project Manager: Yep and maybe we do we even have more than just a DVD player Do not we have other ou User Interface: we should make it compatible perhaps with everything we use we we make ? Industrial Designer: And stereo s audio installations Project Manager: We also just released a TFT thing I saw Marketing: so but th that is kind kind of standard T television so it also works on that User Interface: And I think the people who who will buy our remote already have some experience with remotes So we can keep that in mind Project Manager: It does not have to be but we can Industrial Designer: it does not have to be User Interface: W well it is a n it is a new remote and you do not buy a remote if you do not have anything to to control with it Project Manager: Well except if we deliver it together with our DVD Marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d Project Manager: because we look at competitors and w if we pick up the good things about that and give it a nice design Marketing: but it is it has to be useable Industrial Designer: It has to be different and familiar at the same time User Interface: we could use another form or shape or colour that kind of things Industrial Designer: the shape will will have to be recognised I thought about like most remote controls are a long box shaped thing you can make it triangle shaped User Interface: Well we we could make more more oval or something and and Industrial Designer: but that is not very recognisable Project Manager: N we can use it as a as a game pad So one hand has the beer so the other hand User Interface: but young people want something different Marketing: but it is quite important that it fits Project Manager: one of our aims is that it has to be original and trendy so Industrial Designer: Oh but it ha it has to be m But you still have to know it is a remote and not another Project Manager: Well there has been done a lot of researches about remotes we have to we can imagine because it is a long time on the market So the the form will have been tested out so Industrial Designer: so the long box shaped thing must be useful or else they would have been ano another shape Project Manager: for me personally I have a a lot of remotes at home but those ones that have a a round ending and well just an square middle I do not like to use them I have have to it has to fit my hands When it falls over it and I just have and then the button that I use most has to be here Marketing: It should not be boxy Industrial Designer: a lo the long box shape You have to use one hand Project Manager: It f it fits your hands and then you just push the button that you use most with thumb Marketing: Nah I do not agree with the long box shape it it has to be custom made for the hand Project Manager: Though though those new DVD players on the market do have those Industrial Designer: But it does fit in the hand if you hold it like this and you can make it another shape Marketing: but if you shape it User Interface: No if y if you look at new Phillips DVD with their remotes pl players they they are the new remotes are not box shaped Industrial Designer: W no w what else ? Marketing: No that is old old fashioned Industrial Designer: well but what what what do you suggest then ? Marketing: I can imagine that us User Interface: Well most of of them are are somewhat thicker at the end and get thinner towards the the other end Marketing: right It fits in your palms Industrial Designer: but it is still then the the long box but then with some round round forms in it to fit your hand Project Manager: A it h it has it it has a that is tha th th shape that it fits your hand Industrial Designer: but it is it is still al alright but but it is still it is still sort of box It it has round forms but it in the end it is still the box so that is what I mean Marketing: but it has it has to fit your hand Industrial Designer: I understand but no no I do not mean an entire box like completely square Marketing: It should not be too boxy you know Industrial Designer: but a also with round edges of course but in in in at the end it is still this long box shape with convenient round shapes to fit Marketing: Right maybe something like this and then a button here to switch between different systems like DVD player Industrial Designer: I thought about something like that Marketing: and so you can I have Industrial Designer: A big recognisable button on top or something Marketing: right and I do think we have to keep this kind of idea with the with the numbers and Project Manager: We have five minutes left Industrial Designer: The buttons should also be not too small not too big of course and n not too close together Marketing: But it should be possible to to make it ap apparent that there are two functions for every button So there has to be some space between the buttons Industrial Designer: of course to to to have icons to explain the different functions Marketing: and maybe we should use colours User Interface: maybe we can just like on cell phones those well you can you can put on on them and so you can customise your your own remote with different colours or or special paint jobs Marketing: That is kind of trendy right User Interface: I do not know but Industrial Designer: I think we have to talk also about the the materials for Project Manager: Well it is just about our first ideas now so I think individually we will have to come up with ideas for the next meeting about these materials and markets etcetera Industrial Designer: Already thought about something tha Marketing: I think it is it is important to notate all the the decisions that we make Project Manager: Well thirty minutes we have So This is about what we are going to do You will get specific instructions when you are back in your room so it is logical I think Oh and that is that is all So we will just get a notice that the the meeting is over Industrial Designer: now we can still talk about the material we have some some minutes left I w wrote down that the case should be plastic of course hard plastic the buttons should be rubbery I think Marketing: it should not be too heavy Project Manager: Well I have had remotes that they had the function of the buttons was about a layer over the buttons and when I have had use it much it was gone So it has to be made in the buttons I think It has to not be loose Industrial Designer: Mm Alright And of course there are several electrical cables in it to to connect things to each other Project Manager: Is there an a universal universal way of transmitting from the remote to the television so it is all about Industrial Designer: It is a a common stan standard way Project Manager: It is not that in China it is different ? Industrial Designer: infrared beams an infrared beam I think Project Manager: But y you can have of course different between DVDs and televisions and between Industrial Designer: It it is a we we make an a universal remote so it ha has to work with all kinds of brands and things User Interface: But our TVs are mostly made in China and that sort of country so Industrial Designer: And have well I have wrote something down about how it works The user presses a button and with an infrared beam it signals the television set accordingly but that is pretty obvious I think Marketing: Are we going w with the front fronts idea ? Project Manager: Well I think w we can look into that in the in the next thirty minutes Marketing: I think we should make it universal and you can always use a front front on it you know ? You can use it just plain but you can To make it more trendy Project Manager: Well j just y you get a n a normal front with it but you can change them when you buy the And we should dispatch those kind of fronts fronts a a around the world so User Interface: Well you can make profit with them and it is a way to make them trendy Project Manager: Well th those fifty million do not do not se sells itself so we have to make some extra effort like fronts Industrial Designer: Well but th but the standard front will be just grey or something b a simple colour not not very flashy Project Manager: Yes well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and DVD set we are going to sell User Interface: No a colour everyone accepts Project Manager: so if they are black and black black and silver we will make them black and silver so Industrial Designer: Pink television sets pink remote Marketing: But people of often do not like bright colours or something We have to make it grey or s or black User Interface: Well young people s li Marketing: but then you can use a a front Industrial Designer: I must not forget my pen the next time Project Manager: If you have a a a television room for little children and you make a if if you buy a a pink front they will they will love it I think But that is marketing research you can you can ask Marketing: or a t Teletubby front I will investigate Project Manager: Yes Well our user interface you can maybe I do not know what your specific instructions will be but probably about the precision of the buttons and and those kind of things and what buttons will have to be on the remote And you will look into the technical design and form I think Industrial Designer: Mm also the the look and feel of the the remotes also my task","The team came up with some general desired features about their new TV remote controls,including compatibility, appearance and functions .First, they thought compatibility is of importance.Second ,they thought good looks and sizes of remote controls were two vital features .Third, buttons should be designed properly." "Marketing: Maybe it is important to make it compatible with the DVD player Project Manager: That would be a nice idea yes Marketing: so you can use your television and your DVD player with the same remote control Furthermore it is important to make it acceptable for the whole world for different cultures maybe because we want to we want to well fifty million ? Project Manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit so Marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it Industrial Designer: No but the b the buttons have to have to have international recognisable buttons and and numbers and that every culture in people in every country can recognise","The team decided that the remote had to be compatible with most of the world's TVS, or at least the ones they made. And the buttons must be internationally recognized.They also thought that the function of the remote control was to change the state of the TV and this could be realized by pressing the button." "Project Manager: Well th those fifty million do not do not se sells itself so we have to make some extra effort like fronts Industrial Designer: Well but th but the standard front will be just grey or something b a simple colour not not very flashy Project Manager: Yes well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and DVD set we are going to sell User Interface: No a colour everyone accepts Project Manager: so if they are black and black black and silver we will make them black and silver so Industrial Designer: Pink television sets pink remote Marketing: But people of often do not like bright colours or something We have to make it grey or s or black",They argue that the TV remote should not be too colorful and must match the color of the TV they sell. They admit that no color is acceptable to everyone. It's something they think people generally don't like bright colors. It's their intention to make the TV remote in black or gray or silver. "User Interface: I also think we should not add too many buttons Modern day remotes have too much buttons I think Project Manager: Y y you do not use the half of them that is that is Marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between DVD player and TV and make the other buttons multifunctional or something Industrial Designer: so it does not become too complicated with too much buttons and",They thought that the number of buttons on existing remote controls should be reduced.So they wanted to make buttons multifunctional to simplify the remote control buttons.And they also thought that the buttons must be internationally recognized. "Project Manager: Well then the serious stuff We are we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally so but we do not know what exactly th i it is in dollars but twenty five Euros Our profit aim is worldwide fifty million Euros So I did not exactly calculate how much we have to sell we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so keep that in mind when we talk about our materials an f and stuff and marketing research Now then we all we can sit down and discuss what do we think about our current remote controls first about design about aim in the market etcetera ? Well we c we can sit down because presentation can wait We can take notes and Well who has some remarks about the current remote controls ? Please ? Industrial Designer: Well I I did not have to prepare anything about it is not it is it is not my task to talk about experience with current remote controls but",The project manager wants to sell the remote internationally for 25 euros and keep its cost under 12.50 euros to meet the global profit target of 50 million euros. But project managers don't calculate exactly how much they want to sell. "Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Mr Chair we knew from the beginning of this pandemic that we did need to move extremely quickly and that is what we did We rolled out the Canada emergency response benefit extremely quickly Eight million Canadians have had that as a replacement for paycheques lost because of COVID19 We also moved forward on the wage subsidy and a range of other programs to support workers and small businesses What we have done in terms of helping small businesses with the Canada emergency business account has had a massive impact on small businesses across the country but we understand that certain companies and businesses have particularities that mean it is a little more difficult for them to qualify We are working with them through their regional development agencies and we encourage them to approach their local RDAs which will be able to help them get the money they deserve Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair these are very simple technical fixes that can be made by this government There is no excuse for the delay It is May 27 They have known about these problems for weeks They are trying to get patted on the back for actions they took back in March and yet they are letting so many Canadians down by not making these very simple changes For example companies that have acquired another company in the last year have employees whose jobs are threatened The businesses are not allowed to qualify for the wage subsidy because their revenue is now counted together We have identified this Again it is a simple question Will companies that have acquired another company still be allowed to use the wage subsidy to keep workers on the job yes or no ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair I know that there are many different types of businesses across this country that need support We have moved forward on supporting as many of them as we possibly can and we continue to work on filling gaps I know the member opposite has talked to me a number of times about a tractor company in his riding I can assure you that finance officials are engaged with that company to see if there is a way to make sure we are getting them the support they need Hon. Andrew Scheer: It is actually a very simple fix I can save him and his officials a lot of time The government used the word amalgamation when it announced the changes to that program He can make this very clear and save a lot of work just by including the word acquisition Will he do that ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair I can assure you that finance officials are working closely with Brandt Tractor They are continuing to work with a range of businesses across the country that for various reasons are not able to apply for the help we have now We will continue to work to make sure people who need the help get it Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair it is literally one word We can email him the text We can send him the page in the dictionary where that word is defined if that would help Another that is letting people down is in the rent relief program The government has set the parameters to qualify for the rent relief program for companies that have experienced a 70 revenue loss There are untold thousands of businesses that have experienced a 50 55 60 or 65 loss that are ineligible but have no capacity to pay the rent We called on the government weeks ago to have a more flexible sliding scale to allow more companies to access this program to keep more people on the job and more businesses open Will the government introduce some flexibility to this program to help more businesses survive ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair from the beginning of this pandemic our public servants and policymakers have been moving creatively and quickly to try to get help to as many people as we possibly can with our focus being on the people who need it the most Obviously this pandemic is affecting everyone and every business across the country in different ways but our focus has been on ensuring that those who most need it are getting the help they can We will of course continue to work with the parties opposite and all Canadians to ensure that we are getting help to everyone who needs it but our focus has always been on the most vulnerable first and foremost","In response to the opposition party, the Prime Minister answered that the government rolled out the Canada emergency response benefit extremely quickly, and they had been helping the small businesses with the Canada emergency business account. The opposition party was not very satisfied because he thought that the government did not reach out to as many businesses as possible. Also, the opposition party made a few comments on the rent relief program which was too rigid and hard to apply." "The Chair: The floor now goes to MrBlanchet Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you MrChair My question is for the Prime Minister If the Liberal Party of Canada had not taken advantage of the emergency programs would it have laid off all its staff ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we recognized that a number of organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID19 People work for those organizations as accountants receptionists assistants or labourers and those people need to be supported We are supporting people all over the country through that program Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is the Liberal Party one of those organizations in difficulty ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Any company or organization that can demonstrate a significant drop in its income whether that be in donations receipts profits The Chair: The floor goes to MrBlanchet Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty as an organization ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we created specific criteria to help organizations in difficulty Any organization experiencing those difficulties can apply Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: In the Magdalen Islands fishing companies in difficulty and in need of assistance will not have the money that the Liberals are going to take Is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty as an organization ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we have invested in assistance for fishers all across the country We recognize that it is a difficult situation because of COVID19 We will be here for our fishers and for industries in difficulty Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: I am not catching many answers it seems to me A company in Drummondville that manufactures isolation membranes is in difficulty because a federal program is inadequate Compared to that company is the Liberal Party of Canada in difficulty as an organization ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair there are clear criteria for submitting applications under these programs Companies and organizations that receive money qualify for those programs Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the program criteria establish that the Liberal Party is an organization in difficulty does that mean that the criteria to determine whether an organization is in difficulty are poorly designed ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair all through this pandemic our priority has been to be here for workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs This applies to all organizations and companies in the country to the extent possible That is what we are in the process of doing Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Given the answers from the Prime Minister let me ask this question : is the Prime Minister in difficulty ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: No MrChair We are doing important work for all Canadians every day Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Restaurant owners on rue Ontario in Montreal feel that they will not make it through the crisis and that they will never open their doors again They are in difficulty By comparison is the Liberal Party of Canada an organization in difficulty that will not open its doors again after the crisis ? We can but hope Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we established criteria for that program in order to help those working for various organizations Any organization that receives the subsidy has qualified for it Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Is there a consensus in the Liberal Party caucus that the Liberal Party is in difficulty as an organization ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we are working every day to help Canadians and workers in difficulty We are going to continue to do that work Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Does answering a question put the Prime Minister in difficulty ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair it is a pleasure to be here in the House and to answer questions from Canadians and from members of the opposition Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: You are going to answer a question from a Quebecker I hope Companies are struggling in Saguenay in the Gasp in Beloeil Would those companies not deserve to be saved by the money that the supposedly struggling Liberal Party has taken ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I am always very happy to answer questions from all Canadians currently sitting in the House We will be here to help workers in difficulty all across the country including in Quebec Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: If the Prime Minister is so happy to answer questions I hope he will be delirious with joy to answer this one Is the Liberal Party in difficulty ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we established a program to help those working in organizations and who could lose their jobs because of COVID19 We are here to help workers in organizations and companies all over the country","The Prime Minister explained that the government recognized that several organizations and companies were facing difficulties because of COVID-19 and they were supporting people all over the country through that program. Although the opposition party was getting rigorous about the intensity of the question, the Prime Minister kept emphasizing that the government's priority had always been workers in difficulty so that they do not lose their jobs. This applied to all organizations and companies in the country to the extent possible." "The Chair: We will now go on to Mr Singh Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much Mr Chair The conditions of seniors as outlined by the military were appalling but seniors need more than just compassionate words They need action Will the Prime Minister stop hiding behind excuses and actually show leadership to fix longterm care ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the Constitution of Canada is not an excuse It lays out the divisions of powers and responsibilities and we respect the provinces jurisdiction over longterm care facilities However from the very beginning we have indicated our willingness to support the provinces on this very important issue We need to make sure our seniors right across the country are properly cared for which is why we sent in the military and why we are there to help the provinces Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The former federal health minister Dr Philpott said We need to stop using jurisdiction as an excuse to not have federal leadership That is a former federal health minister Now we know from the military report that staff were afraid to use vital equipment because of the cost Will the Prime Minister call for an end to profit in longterm care ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair over the past couple of days I have had very good conversations with the premiers of both Quebec and Ontario on this important issue I look forward to discussing issues around longterm care with all the premiers of the provinces and territories tomorrow evening as well This is something that Canadians have seen needs concerted action We will be there to support the provinces Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Needles were reused and expired medication was used according to military reports Will the Prime Minister call for an end to profit in the care of our seniors ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the contents of that report were deeply disturbing and troubling for all Canadians That is why we are committed to working with the provinces to fix this situation Ontarians and indeed people right across the country are deeply preoccupied by what they have seen going on We need to fix this and we will do that together Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The military report found that cockroaches and flies were present and that food was rotten Will the Prime Minister call for national standards so that longterm care is governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair our priority right now is ensuring that we are supporting the provinces in their need to make sure that all seniors are protected right across the country in all those institutions Going forward we absolutely will need to have more conversations about how we can ensure that every senior across the country is properly supported Mr. Jagmeet Singh: The military report found that respecting the dignity of patients was not a priority Will the Prime Minister call for national standards and for longterm care to be governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair all Canadians know we need to do better by our seniors This is something we all take very seriously and all orders of government will work together to make sure that right now and going forward we improve our systems The federal government will be there to work with the provinces on making that happen Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair the Prime Minister has said that he is willing to work with the provinces I am saying that we need to see federal leadership We need a commitment at the federal level that the Prime Minister will push for things that people need which is to remove profit from longterm care and to establish national standards Will the Prime Minister go beyond working with provinces and show some leadership ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair I will always be here to stand up for Canadians in all different situations We are going to work with the provinces fully respecting jurisdictions to make sure that all across the country Canadians in longterm care are supported as required and receive the services and the care they deserve The Chair: Mr Singh we have 30 seconds Ask a brief question please Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much The COVID19 crisis should not be used as an excuse to avoid presenting solutions to the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls committee in particular by delaying action on the calls for justice This is the same government that would not recognize it as a genocide the same government that delayed the United Nations declaration legislation and the same government that is still taking indigenous kids to court Will this government commit to core funding for indigenous services to help women and girls and ensure that the calls for justice are implemented without delay ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair we continue to work very closely with partners on the calls for justice even as we act in many areas including better funding for shelters and for victims of domestic violence We will continue to work with those partners but people will understand that many of those partners are very focused right now on helping frontline workers not on establishing the report We will continue to work with them on the report but the COVID19 situation has made that more difficult The Chair: I want to thank the honourable members who are shouting time but I do have a timer here and I am taking care of it I appreciate the help but I do want to remind them that I have the proper machinery here We will now go to Mr Bezan","The opposition party questioned about sending military groups to provinces in order to fix long-term care. The Prime Minister answered that the government needed to make sure seniors across the country were properly cared for, and they sent in the military to help the provinces. The opposition party also questioned about applying the national standards so that long-term care was governed by the same principles as the Canada Health Act. The Prime Minister elaborated that due the Covid-19, pushing the project had become extremely difficult." "Mr. James Bezan: Thank you Chair My question is to the Prime Minister He was just talking about the tragic conditions in longterm care facilities in Ontario and there was a report out from Quebec today I want to commend the Canadian Armed Forces for witnessing these appalling conditions putting it in the context of a report and providing care to our loved ones in these longterm care facilities The government is saying they did not receive the report from the department until May 22 but this report came out on May 14 What happened to that report for eight days ? The Chair: We will go to the honourable minister We seem to have a technical issue Mr Sajjan We can not hear you You might want to put down your bar and keep it down while you are speaking Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan (Minister of National Defence): Mr Chair I want to thank our Canadian Armed Forces members for the tremendous work they are doing They did their duty noted down their observations and reported them While those observations were being reported directly to the managers a report was being compiled This report was given to me on the 21st I then forwarded it to the Minister of Public Safety on the 22nd and that report was then given to the provincial authorities very quickly afterwards Mr. James Bezan: I trust that you got the report on the 21st but the report was written on the 14th so what happened with that report for seven days ? Why was not it acted upon ? Could you just explain that ? Our loved ones were at risk during that entire time Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr Chair as we stated this report was done and given up through the chain of command and the appropriate leadership did their due diligence Once we received this report it was forwarded to the appropriate authorities Again I want to commend our Canadian Armed Forces members for not only the tremendous work they are doing but also for doing their duty Mr. James Bezan: That report from Ontario documented appalling conditions horrific care that was being given to the clients and also the way that the staff conducted themselves We know that there are 39 members of the Canadian Armed Forces currently infected with COVID19 Minister do you believe that the infection could have been transmitted from staff to our soldiers serving in longterm care facilities because proper protocols were not being followed ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr Chair when it comes to any type of activities that we send our Canadian Armed Forces on we do our due diligence to make sure that we have the right protocols in place and the appropriate training This is why we have taken the time to make sure our folks not only did the appropriate training but had the appropriate equipment We have the right protocols in place and we will make sure that our members who are infected by COVID will get the appropriate treatment as well Mr. James Bezan: Does the Minister of National Defence believe that our soldiers serving in Operation Laser who have put themselves in harms way in battling the COVID virus as a war deserve to have hazard pay benefits ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr Chair when it comes to looking after Canadian Armed Forces personnel yes we are actually in the process as we speak of making sure that our members have the appropriate hazard pay This is currently being drafted and we will have more to say on this shortly Mr. James Bezan: I hope that means it is a yes I do encourage the government to provide that compensation to our soldiers and troops serving in Operation Laser I would finally like to come back to the issue of the timeline from May 14 to May 21 when that report was in the department for one week Under our parliamentary system ministers are accountable for the conduct of their departments Will the minister take responsibility for that report sitting on someone is desk for seven days and not being turned over to the proper authorities ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr Chair I want to make it very clear : When it comes to the observations that were made those were immediately reported to the appropriate management of the care facilities and to the appropriate links within the province At the same time this report was being compiled and pushed up to the chain of command and they did their due diligence As I stated it was given to us and on the same day it was forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety who immediately then sent it to the provincial authorities Mr. James Bezan: Was one of those authorities that this was sent to the RCMP ? Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan: Mr Chair as stated this will not only be given to the proper authorities but the appropriate steps will be taken now The Chair: We will now go to Ms Falk Ms Falk","The opposition party questioned that the report was delayed in issuing by the government and was not acted upon. The minister answered that the report was done and given up through the chain of command, and once the government received this report, it was forwarded to the appropriate authorities. The minister denied the fact that the report was released and acted upon late." "Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Thank you Chair Yesterday it was revealed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party Why is the minister using her authority to support the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression ? Hon. Joyce Murray (Minister of Digital Government): Mr Chair we value the important work of media right across the country Attacking the integrity of hardworking journalists is simply not acceptable Like many members on all sides of the House WeChat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with The Chair: Now we will go back to Ms Falk Ms Falk Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is the minister aware of the efforts that the United Front carries out on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party to influence how Canadians view the Peoples Republic of China ? Hon. Joyce Murray: Thank you for that question Mr Chair I want to just be clear The participation in the WeChat group much like Facebook is guided by posted The Chair: We will now go back to Ms Falk Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is the minister an active participant in the efforts by the Communists to muzzle a Canadian journalist and deprive Canadians of the facts about China ? Hon. Joyce Murray: Muzzling journalists is never acceptable and our government is very clear on that I will say that the individual in question posted something outside of the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer The Chair: We will now go back to Ms Falk Ms Falk I just want to point out that we do have interpreters listening and trying to interpret They would appreciate it Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: My questions are short That is probably what it is Chair the Liberals can not shrug this off The minister admitted to theBreaker that her own political staff manages this WeChat This is someone who is paid by Canadian taxpayers Why is the minister using tax dollars to help China attack Global News and freedom of expression ? Hon. Joyce Murray: I think the member knows very well that the people who post on WeChat are free to post what they choose within certain guidelines Those guidelines were ignored That person is no longer part of my WeChat group The post was completely unacceptable and I do not share the views of the individual Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair Sam Cooper is an investigative Canadian journalist who has uncovered many different criminal rackets that can be linked back to Beijing Has the minister apologized to Sam Cooper for attempting to shut down his work ? Hon. Joyce Murray: As we all know community outreach is a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament WeChat is one of many social media sites regularly used by members The Chair: We go back to Ms Falk Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair when will the minister apologize to Sam Cooper and Global News ? Hon. Joyce Murray: Mr Chair I have been very clear that I do not share the views of the person who posted on my WeChat site who operated outside of my The Chair: We will now go back to Ms Falk Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair in December 2018 the Liberals passed Bill C76 This included provisions to prevent foreign interference in Canadian society Does the government believe that Joyce Murrays actions have violated this portion of the act ? Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr Chair I want to assure the member that we are always vigilant in any foreign interference in our national security or issues of political interference in our society It is monitored carefully by the national security establishment according to the law as it exists in this country and we will remain vigilant Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair in May 2019 the Liberals launched their digital charter One of the principles was strong democracy a commitment to defend freedom of expression Will the Liberals hold Joyce Murrays WeChat accountable if it has violated this part of the charter ? Hon. Bill Blair: Mr Chair we are absolutely committed to the rule of law and will always uphold it I think as the minister has made very clear she was not involved in this process and has no control over the individual who posted that matter Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Chair unfortunately I do not believe that was a sufficient answer This is really a yes or no Will the government hold Joyce Murrays WeChat accountable if it has violated their part of the charter ? Hon. Bill Blair: Again Mr Chair I want to assure the member that our government remains committed to the rule of law and we will always work tirelessly to uphold the laws of this country Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Is that a yes or a no ? Hon. Bill Blair: Again I think it was very clear We will always uphold the laws of Canada Mrs. Rosemarie Falk: Still was that a yes or a no ? I am not hearing a yes or a no Hon. Bill Blair: I am doing my very best Mr Chair to answer the question for the House and to assure the member opposite that our government will always remain committed to the rule of law That is unequivocal","The opposition party claimed that the Minister of Digital Government has been promoting a fundraising campaign to sue Global News for their story criticizing the Chinese Communist Party, and the opposition party thought the minister was supporting the Communist Party of China and threatening our media and freedom of expression. The Minister explained that community outreach was a very important part of the work of a member of Parliament and WeChat was one of many social media sites regularly used by members, and the minister did not share any personal views on Wechat." "The Chair: We will now move on to the honourable member The floor is yours MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Thank you MrChair I am very happy and proud to be participating in this discussion in the House of Commons today My question is very simple : how much is Canadas deficit ? Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): MrChair we continue to be transparent with our measures Of course we want to make sure that our investments our economy The Chair: The floor is yours MrDeltell Mr. Grard Deltell: Let me ask my question to the honourable Minister of Finance once more since he is talking about transparency My question is really simple : how much is Canadas deficit ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair our economic situation is very fluid We have made major investments and we are making sure that our economy is working Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair the ministers answer is not fluid at all But the question is really simple : how much is Canadas deficit ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair it is important to be transparent with our investments We look at the investments and the figures every day Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair the Minister of Finance may not know what the deficit is but one great Canadian does know And he knows that he knows Could the Minister of Finance be very clear very fluid and above all very transparent with Canadians ? What is Canadas deficit ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair I want to be very clear with Canadians : our economic situation is very difficult The situation is fluid We are making investments to ensure that our economy will be strong in the future Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair with all due respect to the Minister of Finance let me point out that though he is not very clear Canadas Parliamentary Budget Officer was clear yesterday The deficit is 260billion That is the real number Why does the government not have the courage to state it clearly as the Parliamentary Budget Officer did yesterday ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we always want to be clear and transparent It is very important for the situation to be stable in order to ensure our future That is our economic approach We are making investments now so that the situation becomes more stable Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair I know that the Minister of Finance is very good with figures But he is not able to give us one Perhaps he could comment on the statement that the Parliamentary Budget Officer made yesterday that the emergency assistance must have an end date and if it does not we are heading to levels of taxation that have not been seen in this country for generations What is the government going to do to make sure that Canadians will not be overtaxed after this crisis ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we think it is very important to make investments That way we will have a resilient economy in the future That is very important That way we know that we will have a good economy in the future When we have more information we will The Chair: MrDeltell you have the floor Mr. Grard Deltell: MrChair will the minister commit not to raise taxes after the crisis ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair I have said several times that we do not have a plan to raise taxes That is very important Mr. Grard Deltell: Finally a clear answer ! However I am not convinced that he will apply it In fact the Parliamentary Budget Officer himself has said that there is not much ammunition left without shifting into a large structural deficit which can lead directly to tax increases If the Minister of Finance can not even say today what the deficit is today how can he be credible when he says that he will not raise taxes ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair I think what is most important is that during this pandemic Canadians and companies across the country need the Government of Canadas help That is our approach That way we will have an economy that will function in the future Of course this is important for future generations Mr. Grard Deltell: When will there be an economic update ? MrChair all observers are expecting an economic update to know where we are going When will that happen ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we want our economic update to be accurate That is why we are looking at information that allow us to make good forecasts","The minister argued that it was very important to be transparent with our investments and the government would look at the investments and the figures every day and be transparent about it. The minister promised that Canada would have a good economy in the future, and the government would not raise taxes after the crisis to tackle the deficit. Hence, the opposition party demanded a regular economy update." "The Chair: We will now go to Mr Hoback Mr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): Mr Chair the United States Australia India Japan New Zealand South Korea and Vietnam have created an economic prosperity group to diversify some of their key supply chains away from China Canada has a free trade agreement with six of these seven countries Why are we not part of this group ? Hon. Mary Ng (Minister of Small Business, Export Promotion and International Trade): Mr Chair I thank the hon member for that question Indeed we have been working diligently with all of these countries to make sure that we are keeping global supply chains open during this critical time I think everyone agrees that keeping supply chains open for medical goods critical agriculture and essential goods is absolutely essential and The Chair: We will go back to Mr Hoback Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair this government is refusing to come to terms with what COVID19 will mean for the future of international trade Why is Canada not at the table with our largest trading partner protecting the viability of our international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities of others doing the same ? The Chair: Before we go to the minister one of the members has his mike still on and I would ask that he turn it off I am hearing background noise The hon minister Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair Canada has unprecedented access to a number of markets around the world because of the extraordinary agreements that we have made to provide access to customers in those international markets During COVID19 we have been working with our G20 partners I have had two meetings with G20 trade ministers on the importance of keeping supply chains The Chair: We will go back to Mr Hoback Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair is this payback for the Prime Minister snubbing these countries at the original TPP signing ? Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair we have a CPTPP arrangement with these countries and we are looking forward to making sure that we get Canadian businesses growing into those markets Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair the YOUK will begin applying tariffs at the beginning of next year on Canadian exports such as seafood beef and cars These are the items that have had tariffs removed under CETA Will the government commit to having a new trade agreement with the YOUK in place by January 1 ? Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair we are monitoring the situation very carefully The YOUK of course is a very important trading partner for Canada They are in discussions right now I want to assure Canadian businesses that CETA continues to apply to our trade with the YOUK during this period while they go through Brexit Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair after CUSMA this government guaranteed to the trade committee that they would publish the objectives of any new trade agreement When will we see these objectives published and actually have a chance to view them ?","The opposition party claimed that the government was not cooperating with the UK, its largest trading partner, protecting the viability of their international supply chains and capitalizing on the opportunities. The minister explained that the UK, of course, was a very important trading partner for Canada, and CETA would continue to apply to trade with the U.K. during this period while they went through Brexit." "Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair we look forward to working to ensure that those objectives are published as we get into future trade discussions Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair the resignation of the WTO directorgeneral at this unprecedented time is concerning for the international trade community Is the government committed to supporting a DG candidate who is dedicated to the massive reforms needed to get the WTO functioning again ? Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair I want to thank the hon member for that good question The Ottawa group led by Canada is working with likeminded countries on the reform of the WTO We have been doing this work and we continue to do this work I look forward to making sure that we are leading the way on those discussions with likeminded Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair last week the President of the United States considered blocking cattle imports Our beef producers do not need this They need stability Threequarters of Canadas beef cattle exports go to the YOUS Has the government sought out and received assurances from the United States that no such action will apply to Canadian cattle ? Hon. Chrystia Freeland (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr Chair we have an excellent assurance of our trade with the United States which is our new NAFTA trade agreement that we have negotiated thanks to the unprecedented cooperation across this country It is very important to the Canadian economy and Canadian producers Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair going forward postCOVID there are a lot things that will be changing in supply chains What is this government doing proactively to look at opportunities in these supply chains that Canadian businesses can take advantage of ? Hon. Mary Ng: Mr Chair we continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canadas supply chains and those global supply chains particularly for essential goods for agricultural products for medical supplies continue to remain open We will keep doing this work Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr Chair on the agriculture side canola farmers would like to know the status of canola going into China Can she update the House on that status ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food): MrChair I want to assure my colleague that we are continuing to work with our industry representatives our allies and our trading partners in China The Chair: We will now go to Ms McLeod","The opposition party claimed that the supply chain in Canada amidst the pandemic was not stable enough and the government was not doing anything. The minister explained that they would continue to work with countries around the globe to ensure that Canada's supply chains and those global supply chains, particularly for essential goods, for agricultural products, for medical supplies, would continue to remain open." "Mrs. Cathy McLeod (KamloopsThompsonCariboo, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Senior Canadian bureaucrats received very credible reports in early January that China was procuring and hoarding PPE As a member of cabinet was the health minister aware ? Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Mr Chair from the very beginning of the outbreak in early January we were aware of the challenges our health sector would face and we immediately began to work with the provinces and territories to understand what the need would be and how we could best prepare Mrs. Cathy McLeod: In April the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile Can she explain why she approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31 claiming it would not compromise our supply ? She can not have it both ways We do not have enough we have enough and it will not compromise it Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Mr Chair we are operating in a highly competitive global environment and the reality is that we need to make sure we have multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time which we have been doing in the past weeks and months to ensure our frontline health care workers have the supplies they need to keep Canadians safe That is our priority That is what we are working on Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Unfortunately this question was directed to the health minister referencing things she actually stated in terms of the availability of our supplies Before the she signed off on the donationand it was the health minister who signed off on the donationdid she consult with the health ministers in the provinces and territories ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair as the member opposite knows provinces and territories have their own stockpiles which of course they use to prepare for incidences of outbreak and other illnesses across their jurisdictions We have worked very closely with the provinces and territories since the beginning of the outbreak to make sure we can provide any particular additional support In fact of all the requests made so far we have been able to complete them Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Health care workers are now having to look at modified fullface snorkels as an alternative to N95 masks Did it not occur to the minister that our hospitals and care homes could have used that PPE she shipped out providing a longer opportunity for them to also get procurement done ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair as the member opposite knows the equipment that was donated when China was in its outbreak was an important donation of nearly expired or expired goods that it was in desperate need of in its effort to try to contain the virus As the member opposite knows we have been able to work successfully with provinces and territories to ensure they have what they need Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Mr Chair I would suggest that during February and March our hospitals would have consumed that almostexpired product very efficiently but I want to move on to another topic When defending the sale of 22 seniors homes to the Chinese government the Prime Minister stated that we have a strong regulatory regime that imposes rigorous standards He said that this regime ensures the care our seniors get is top quality That was in 2017 Now he states he is saddened shocked disappointed and angered Was the Prime Minister completely oblivious to the risks or was he just too anxious to please the Chinese government when he sold those 22 homes ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair the homes the member opposite is referring to are in the province of BC and I have to commend the province for the early work it did to protect seniors in those longterm care homes The member opposite is trying to confuse the issue As she knows the review we did was entirely separate from the standards to which the province holds the care homes Mrs. Cathy McLeod: The Prime Minister does not have authority over seniors homes which he has clearly stated but he does have authority over the act in which he approved the sale At 18 months government had an obligation to make sure there was compliance Was that done ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair the longterm care homes in each province fall within the jurisdiction of their own particular act and those provinces and territories are responsible for fulfilling the inspections required under that act Mrs. Cathy McLeod: Under the Investment Canada Act the government is obligated to review the sale for compliance Four homes had to close Since the government approved the sale it is complicit in the care of our seniors in this country Hon. Navdeep Bains (Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry): Mr Chair I want to make it very clear that we understand how difficult this is for seniors That is why we follow the appropriate steps outlined under the Investment Canada Act to make sure that any measures we take keep seniors and their wellbeing first and foremost","The opposition party claimed that China was procuring and hoarding PPE during January. And in April, the minister stated there were not enough supplies in the national emergency stockpile. The opposition party was triggered by the fact that the minister approved a donation of 16 tonnes of PPE for China on January 31, claiming it would not compromise the country's supply. The minister explained that the government was doing so because they had multiple complementary supply chains operating at the same time for PPE production." "The Chair: MrTherrien you now have the floor Mr. Alain Therrien (La Prairie, BQ): MrChair during the pandemic the government has given money to companies that do not pay a cent in tax because they use tax havens We told the government that it did not make sense The governments response was that it is no big deal During the pandemic the government gave money to Air Canada but Air Canada never reimbursed customers who did not get the services they paid for We told the government that it did not make sense The governments response was that it was no big deal During the pandemic the Liberal Party used the emergency wage subsidy to fund partisan activities We told them that it did not make sense The government responded that it was no big deal Is the moral of the story that the government thinks that dipping into the pockets of taxpayers to spend money carelessly is no big deal ? Hon. Diane Lebouthillier (Minister of National Revenue): MrChair the fight against tax evasion is a priority for our government We will continue to target companies that use tax evasion schemes Let me be clear : in everything we do we will target companies and not innocent workers Employees are employees no matter who they work for Mr. Alain Therrien: MrChair when I see that it is the Minister of National Revenue answering me I do not feel like buying a lottery ticket The Liberal Party used two airplanes in its last election campaign which seems to indicate that it is not short of money However the Liberals used the emergency wage subsidy Why ? Is it because they want taxpayers to fund a third airplane ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we think it is very important to protect employees across the country and in every economic sector that is experiencing a significant drop in income That is the approach we have taken to protect people and to ensure that there will be jobs in the future We will continue this approach Mr. Alain Therrien: It is especially important to protect the employees who work for the Liberals to ensure their reelection yet the Liberal Party has raised more than 7million since the last election Is the party in jeopardy ? Can it go bankrupt ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair as I said our approach is to protect employees We think that this principle is very important and that this approach must be maintained in order to have a better job market in the future Mr. Alain Therrien: MrChair we still do not know exactly how much money the Liberals took from the cookie jar We think they may have taken as much as 1million How many SMEs could have been saved with the 1million that the Liberals took out of the jar and took away from SMEs ? Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we appreciate the question We are protecting hundreds of thousands of SMEs through the emergency wage subsidy the Canada emergency response benefit and all our programs We will continue this approach to help SMEs and their employees Mr. Alain Therrien: MrChair I will propose a choice of answers or I will not get any When did the government decide to use the emergency wage subsidy ? Now here are three possible answers The first possible answer is that when the Liberals brought in the emergency wage subsidy they set parameters allowing them to use it The second is that when the Liberals saw the Conservative Partywhich is as rich as they are but also sanctimonious and selfrighteoustake advantage of the subsidy they thought they could do it too The third possible answer is that the Liberals had not planned to use the subsidy but they pounced on the cookie jar when they saw it because that is what they do Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we continue to think it is very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada That is our approach and I believe it is the right one to protect and preserve jobs across the country during a pandemic The Chair: We are now going to suspend the proceedings for a few seconds to allow the employees who provide support for the meeting to replace each other safely The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): We will now resume the discussion We will continue with Ms Khalid the honourable member for MississaugaErin Mills","The opposition party claimed that the government had been providing financial support to companies such as Air Canada, which did not pay a single cent in tax nor did it use the money to reimburse customers. The minister explained that the government did not bias against any company, , and it was thought that it was very important to protect employees in every sector of the economy and across Canada.The fight against tax evasion was a priority for the government. The minister promised that they would continue to target companies that use tax evasion schemes." "Ms. Iqra Khalid (MississaugaErin Mills, Lib.): Thank you Mr Chair I will be splitting my time with the member for PickeringUxbridge Mr Chair when the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces stepped in to provide support to five longterm care homes in Ontario at the request of the premier they released a report that outlined their findings in detail Military members witnessed residents cries for help going unanswered They saw forcefeeding They saw bug infestations a lack of personal protective equipment and neglect Canadians are shaken They are appalled by the horrific conditions outlined in the military report Almost 1000 seniors so far have lost their lives in longterm care homes in Ontario alone over 25 of them in my riding of MississaugaErin Mills These deaths could have been prevented Can the Minister of Health please update the House on how our federal government is working with the provinces and territories to prevent further tragic occurrences from happening at longterm care homes and to ensure that our most vulnerable seniors are properly looked after and cared for ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair it is such an important question I believe all Canadians were deeply horrified to read the details from the Canadian Armed Forces on the conditions in longterm care homes in Ontario What is happening to seniors in Ontario is completely unacceptable The report is very troubling Seniors deserve to live with dignity with respect and with safety While longterm care is provincially regulated we know that we need to work together The Government of Canada stands ready to support provinces and territories as they continue to respond to this crisis I had a very good conversation with my provincial and territorial counterparts last night about the work we can do at a national level to support their important work We also know that seniors want to stay at home longer That is why our historic investment of 6 billion in home care was so important We will continue to work with the provinces and territories to ensure that they get the care and dignity they deserve The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go now to Ms OConnell Ms. Jennifer O'Connell (PickeringUxbridge, Lib.): Thank you Mr Chair I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID19 outbreak location anywhere in this country Seventy residents at Orchard Villa longterm care home died during this pandemic It was a devastating blow to our community Yesterday we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering Altamont Care Community in Scarborough Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke Hawthorne Place in North York and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton The loved ones of those who have passed away as well as the homes workers have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction but on behalf of our communities can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full independent nonpartisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a governmentled commission that will not even start until September ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes We are so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care We have to do better as a country These are our loved ones These are our parents and our grandparents These are the people in our lives who have given so much to us I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society We know that there is a role we can play at the federal level with advice with guidance with support and yes with investments We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go now to Mr Davies from Vancouver Kingsway","The opposition party claimed that people across Canada were appalled by the situation in care homes which left seniors suffering. The minister explained that the government was fully aware of the situation. The minister promised that they would fully play their role federal level with advice, with guidance, with support and with investments. They were going to have those conversations about how best they can improve the care for all seniors." "Ms. Jennifer O'Connell (PickeringUxbridge, Lib.): Thank you Mr Chair I will sadly report that my community of Pickering has experienced the largest number of deaths at a single COVID19 outbreak location anywhere in this country Seventy residents at Orchard Villa longterm care home died during this pandemic It was a devastating blow to our community Yesterday we received the horrific report from the Canadian Armed Forces detailing what they witnessed at Orchard Villa in Pickering Altamont Care Community in Scarborough Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke Hawthorne Place in North York and Holland Christian Homes Grace Manor in Brampton The loved ones of those who have passed away as well as the homes workers have asked for a full public inquiry from the Ontario government I know that the responsibility for these facilities falls within provincial jurisdiction but on behalf of our communities can the Minister of Health update us on the work she is doing to ensure that the Ontario government takes action immediately and initiates a full independent nonpartisan public inquiry and reverses its decision to create a governmentled commission that will not even start until September ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair I would say that all Canadians were shocked and horrified to hear about the conditions that existed in these particular care homes We are so grateful to the members of the armed forces who not only improved conditions but also reported them quickly and appropriately to ensure amelioration of those conditions for those particular individuals We also know that there are seniors all across the country who are struggling with care and with the appropriate level of care We have to do better as a country These are our loved ones These are our parents and our grandparents These are the people in our lives who have given so much to us I stand committed to working with my provincial and territorial counterparts to ensure that we do better as a society We know that there is a role we can play at the federal level with advice with guidance with support and yes with investments We look forward to having those conversations about how best we can improve the care for all seniors amongst us The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will go now to Mr Davies from Vancouver Kingsway Mr. Don Davies (Vancouver Kingsway, NDP): Thank you Mr Chair Canadians were horrified to hear the report yesterday from our armed forces about the appalling conditions experienced by seniors in our longterm care homes Page after page detailed the filth neglect abuse and danger our seniors in care are exposed to on a daily basis Shockingly they face injury and death through missed medications expired medications unsterile devices and violations of basic contagion rules to stop the spread of COVID19 Given that evidence of possible criminal conduct was contained in the militarys report will the minister refer this matter to the RCMP for investigation immediately ? Hon. Bill Blair: Mr Chair thanks very much to the member for those expressions of concern which we share We understand in longterm care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges and the findings of this report are in fact deeply concerning and completely unacceptable Considering the severity of this report we promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the reports findings Their investigation includes alerting the provinces chief coroner who has the authority to alert the police of jurisdiction We will continue to work with the province to protect those living in longterm care facilities and we continue to support them through the deployment of our outstanding Canadian Armed Forces and in our partnership with the Red Cross Mr. Don Davies: Mr Chair that is a shocking answer considering there is clear evidence of criminal conduct and negligence in this That this federal government is not taking immediate steps to refer this to the nations RCMP is unacceptable The seniors care crisis is a national problem COVID19 has exposed critical vulnerabilities across Canadas entire network of longterm care facilities Not a single province or territory currently meets the benchmark of 41 hours of handson care per day As a result Canada has the worst record of COVID19 deaths in longterm care among 14 comparable countries with over 80 of Canadian fatalities occurring in these facilities Will this government move swiftly to establish binding national standards for longterm care ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair the member opposite is exactly correct when he says that those who are hardest hit in terms of losing their lives and the negative effects of COVID are those who are living in longterm care homes He is also correct when he indicates that COVID19 has shown us what many of us have known for a long time that we need to do better in longterm care and supports for seniors As the member knows we started those steps some four years ago or so when we began to make incredible investments in aging at home We know that is one part of the solution but we have to do better for those seniors who need a higher level of care That is the work I am doing now I am working with my colleagues at the provinces and territories to make sure that we come up with a solution that will truly result in better standards for all Mr. Don Davies: Mr Chair what we need is binding national standards just like we set through the Canada Health Act in the health care sector generally Gross fecal contamination filthy medical equipment insect infestations ignoring patient cries for hourswe would never tolerate these conditions in Canadas hospitals There is no reason to accept them in Canadas longterm care facilities Will the minister move to bring longterm care facilities under the Canada Health Act or similar legislation with formal funds tied to acceptable standards of care for our seniors just like we do for hospitals ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair the member shares the disgust and concern of so many Canadians across the country not only those who have read the report but many of those who have struggled to provide care to elders in those longterm care homes regardless of the province in which they live We know we need to do better We know that collectively at all levels of government we must do better for those people who cared for us and nurtured us all of those years The member has my commitment that I will work with provinces and territories to find a solution forward to ensure that every person has the right to age with dignity and safety The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr Davies you have 15 seconds for another question a short one and leave time for a response Mr. Don Davies: Thank you Mr Chair These failures are the product of systemic neglect often motivated by prioritizing profit over the provision of adequate care Does the minister agree that we should not be putting profits above the health care needs of Canadas seniors ? Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr Chair I believe that when we commit to taking care of people we must do so with the utmost care that is required I know that provinces and territories have a lot of work to do So do we at the federal level and obviously at the local level We must all work together to protect those people in our lives who are most vulnerable whether they be seniors children or others","The opposition party claimed that the seniors care crisis was a national problem, and the federal government was not taking immediate response. The opposition party pointed out that these failures were the product of systemic neglect.The minister replied that they were fully aware that in long-term care facilities both seniors and persons living with a disability face unique challenges. And considering the severity of this report, the federal government promptly shared it with the Province of Ontario, and the Province of Ontario has initiated an investigation based on the report's findings." "Professor B: We were two we were we went through it Jim and I went through old emails at one point and and for two years there was this thing saying we are we are two months away from being done It was very very believable schedules too I mean we went through and with the schedules and we PhD A: It was true for two years Professor B: Oh It was very true PhD A: So should we just do the same kind of deal where we pause go around and do status report pause kind of things ? OK And I guess when Sunil gets here he can do his last or something So Professor B: So we pause probably should wait for him to come before we do his PhD A: OK That s a good idea Any objection ? Do y OK M Do you want to start Morgan ? Do you have anything or ? Professor B: I do not do anything I No I mean I I m involved in discussions with with people about what they are doing but I think they are since they are here they can talk about it themselves Grad F: OK So should I go so that PhD A: Why do not you go ahead Barry ? Grad F: you are going to talk about Aurora stuff per se ? OK Well this past week I ve just been getting down and dirty into writing my my proposal So Mmm I just finished a section on on talking about these intermediate categories that I want to classify as a as a middle step And I hope to hope to get this a full rough draft done by Monday so I can give it to Morgan PhD A: When is your meeting ? Grad F: with ? Oh oh you mean the the quals the quals are happening in July twenty fifth PhD A: So is the idea you are going to do this paper and then you pass it out to everybody ahead of time and ? Grad F: Right right So y you write up a proposal and give it to people ahead of time and you have a short presentation And and then then everybody asks you questions PhD A: Have you d ? I was just going to ask do you want to say any a little bit about it Grad F: Oh a little bit about ? PhD A: Wh what you are what you are going to You said you were talking about the particular features that you were looking at Grad F: Right Well I was I think one of the perplexing problems is for a while I was thinking that I had to come up with a complete set of intermediate features in intermediate categories to to classify right away But what I m thinking now is I would start with with a reasonable set Something something like like re regular phonetic features just to just to start off that way And do some phone recognition build a system that classifies these these feat these intermediate categories using multi band techniques Combine them and do phon phoneme recognition Look at then I would look at the errors produced in the phoneme recognition and say OK well I could probably reduce the errors if I included this extra feature or this extra intermediate category That would that would reduce certain confusions over other confusions And then and then reiterate build the intermediate classifiers do phoneme recognition Look at the errors And then postulate new or remove intermediate categories And then do it again PhD A: So you are going to use TIMIT ?","The professor told the team that the TORRENT chip schedule kept getting pushed. Then, Grad F talked about his proposal, in which he was done with the section on intermediate categories. Including features from intermediate categories was a potential way of reducing error." "Grad F: OK Well this past week I ve just been getting down and dirty into writing my my proposal So Mmm I just finished a section on on talking about these intermediate categories that I want to classify as a as a middle step And I hope to hope to get this a full rough draft done by Monday so I can give it to Morgan PhD A: When is your meeting ? Grad F: with ? Oh oh you mean the the quals the quals are happening in July twenty fifth PhD A: So is the idea you are going to do this paper and then you pass it out to everybody ahead of time and ? Grad F: Right right So y you write up a proposal and give it to people ahead of time and you have a short presentation And and then then everybody asks you questions","Grad F explained that he was focusing on writing his proposal for his qualification exams, which was on the 25th of July. He had to write a paper and pass it around before that date." "Grad F: Right Well I was I think one of the perplexing problems is for a while I was thinking that I had to come up with a complete set of intermediate features in intermediate categories to to classify right away But what I m thinking now is I would start with with a reasonable set Something something like like re regular phonetic features just to just to start off that way And do some phone recognition build a system that classifies these these feat these intermediate categories using multi band techniques Combine them and do phon phoneme recognition Look at then I would look at the errors produced in the phoneme recognition and say OK well I could probably reduce the errors if I included this extra feature or this extra intermediate category That would that would reduce certain confusions over other confusions And then and then reiterate build the intermediate classifiers do phoneme recognition Look at the errors And then postulate new or remove intermediate categories And then do it again PhD A: So you are going to use TIMIT ? Grad F: for that for that part of the the process I would use TIMIT And then after after doing TIMIT Right ? that s that s that s just the ph the phone recognition task I wanted to take a look at things that I could model within word So I would mov I would then shift the focus to something like Schw Switchboard where I would I would be able to to model intermediate categories that span across phonemes not just within the phonemes themselves and then do the same process there on on a large vocabulary task like Switchboard and for that for that part I would I would use the SRI recognizer since it s already set up for for Switchboard And I would run some some sort of tandem style processing with my intermediate classifiers","Grad F informed the team that he was building a system that classified intermediate categories with multi-band techniques. Then, to reduce error for phoneme recognition, the intermediate categories could be added to improve performance. The method could be replicated for large vocabulary tasks like switchboard." "Grad E: Oh OK sure So last week I finally got results from the SRI system about this mean subtraction approach And we we got an improvement in word error rate training on the TI digits data set and testing on Meeting Recorder digits of six percent to four point five percent on the n on the far mike data using PZM F but the near mike performance worsened from one point two percent to two point four percent And wh why would that be considering that we actually got an improvement in near mike performance using HTK ? And so with some input from Andreas I have a theory in two parts first of all HTK sorry SR the SRI system is doing channel adaptation and so HTK was not so this This mean subtraction approach will do a kind of channel pause normalization and so that might have given the HTK use of it a boost that would not have been applied in the SRI case And also the Andreas pointed out the SRI system is using more parameters It s got finer grained acoustic models So those finer grained acoustic models could be more sensitive to the artifacts pause in the re synthesized audio And me and Barry were listening to the re synthesized audio and sometimes it seems like you get of a bit of an echo of speech in the background And so that seems like it could be difficult for training cuz you could have pause different phones pause lined up with a different foreground phone depending on pause the timing of the echo So I m going to try training on a larger data set and then eh the system will have seen more examples o of these artifacts and hopefully will be more robust to them So I m planning to use the Macrophone set of read speech and Professor B: I had another thought just now which is remember we were talking before about we were talking in our meeting about this stuff that some of the other stuff that Avendano did where they were getting rid of low energy pause sections ? if you if you did a high pass filtering as Hirsch did in pause late eighties to reduce some of the effects of reverberation Avendano and Hermansky were arguing that perhaps one of the reasons for that working was ma may not have even been the filtering so much but the fact that when you filter a an all positive power spectrum you get some negative values and you got to figure out what to do with them if you are going to continue treating this as a power spectrum So what what Hirsch did was set them to zero set the negative values to zero So if you imagine a a waveform that s all positive which is the time trajectory of energy and shifting it downwards and then getting rid of the negative parts that s essentially throwing away the low energy things And it s the low energy parts of the speech where the reverberation is most audible You know you have the reverberation from higher energy things showing up in So in this case you have some artificially imposed pause reverberation like thing I mean you are getting rid of some of the other effects of reverberation but because you have these non causal windows you are getting these funny things coming in at n And what if you did ? I mean there s nothing to say that the the processing for this re synthesis has to be restricted to trying to get it back to the original according to some equation I mean you also could just try to make it nicer And one of the things you could do is you could do some sort of VAD like thing and you actually could take very low energy sections and set them to some some very low or or near zero pause value I mean I m just saying if in fact it turns out that that these echoes that you are hearing are or pre echoes whichever they are are are part of what s causing the problem you actually could get rid of them Be pretty simple I mean you do it in a pretty conservative way so that if you made a mistake you were more likely to pause keep in an echo than to throw out speech PhD G: what is the reverberation time pause like pause there ? Grad E: In thi in this room ? PhD G: On the the one what the s in the speech that you are you are using like ? Grad E: Y I I I I do not know Professor B: So it s this room It s it s this room so it s these are just microphone this micro close microphone and a distant microphone he s doing these different tests on we should do a measurement in here I g think we never have I think it s I would guess point seven point eight seconds f R T something like that ? But it s you know it s this room But the other thing is he s putting in w I was using the word `` reverberation `` in two ways He s also putting in a he s taking out some reverberation but he s putting in something because he has pause averages over multiple windows stretching out to twelve seconds which are then being subtracted from the speech And since you know what you subtract sometimes you will be you will be subtracting from some larger number and sometimes you will not And So you can end up with some components in it that are affected by things that are seconds away and if it s a low pause energy compo portion you might actually hear some pause funny things Grad E: O o one thing I noticed is that the mean subtraction seems to make the PZM signals louder after they ve been re synthesized So I was wondering is it possible that one reason it helped with the Aurora baseline system is pause just as a kind of gain control ? Cuz some of the PZM signals sound pretty quiet if you do not amplify them PhD C: Mm I do not see why why your signal is louder after processing because yo Grad E: I do not know why y either Professor B: I do not think just multiplying the signal by two would have any effect I mean I think if you really have louder signals what you mean is that you have pause better signal to noise ratio So if what you are doing is improving the signal to noise ratio then it would be better But just it being bigger if with the same signal to noise ratio Grad E: It w i i it would not affect things PhD C: Well the system is use pause the absolute energy so it s a little bit dependent on on the pause signal level But not so much I guess Professor B: Well But it s trained and tested on the same thing So if the if the if you change in both training and test the absolute level by a factor of two it will n have no effect PhD A: Did you add pause this data to the training set for the Aurora ? Or you just tested on this ? Grad E: Did I w what ? PhD A: Well Morgan was just saying that as long as you do it in both training and testing it should not have any effect But I I was pause sort of under the impression that you just tested with this data You did not pause train it also Grad E: I Right I trained on clean TI digits I I did the mean subtraction on clean TI digits But I did not I m not sure if it made the clean ti TI digits any louder I only remember noticing it made the PZM signal louder Professor B: OK Well I do not understand then Grad E: Huh I do not know If it s if it s like if it s trying to find a a reverberation filter it could be that this reverberation filter is making things quieter And then if you take it out that taking it out makes things louder I mean Professor B: no I mean there s there s nothing inherent about removing if you are really removing r then I do not pause see how that would make it louder Grad E: The mean OK I see Professor B: So it might be just some Grad E: OK So I should maybe listen to that stuff again Professor B: It might just be some artifact of the processing that that if you are I do not know PhD A: I wonder if there could be something like for s for the PZM data you know if occasionally somebody hits the table or something you could get a spike I m just wondering if there s something about the you know doing the mean normalization where it it could cause pause you to have better signal to noise ratio Professor B: Well you know there is this Wait a minute It it i maybe i If Subtracting the the mean log spectrum is is is like dividing by the spectrum So depending what you divide by if your if s your estimate is off and sometimes you are you are you are getting a small number you could make it bigger So it s it s just a a question of there s It it could be that there s some normalization that s missing or something to make it y you would think it should not be larger but maybe in practice it is That s something to think about",The team got an improvement on the SRI system for TI- digits and Meeting Recorder digits but near mic performance worsened. The team explored the reasons for this difference. The professor suggested getting rid of low energy sections. The team also discussed how more nuanced normalization approaches could improve task performance. Professor B: I had another thought just now which is remember we were talking before about we were talking in our meeting about this stuff that some of the other stuff that Avendano did where they were getting rid of low energy pause sections ? if you if you did a high pass filtering as Hirsch did in pause late eighties to reduce some of the effects of reverberation Avendano and Hermansky were arguing that perhaps one of the reasons for that working was ma may not have even been the filtering so much but the fact that when you filter a an all positive power spectrum you get some negative values and you got to figure out what to do with them if you are going to continue treating this as a power spectrum So what what Hirsch did was set them to zero set the negative values to zero So if you imagine a a waveform that s all positive which is the time trajectory of energy and shifting it downwards and then getting rid of the negative parts that s essentially throwing away the low energy things And it s the low energy parts of the speech where the reverberation is most audible You know you have the reverberation from higher energy things showing up in So in this case you have some artificially imposed pause reverberation like thing I mean you are getting rid of some of the other effects of reverberation but because you have these non causal windows you are getting these funny things coming in at n And what if you did ? I mean there s nothing to say that the the processing for this re synthesis has to be restricted to trying to get it back to the original according to some equation I mean you also could just try to make it nicer And one of the things you could do is you could do some sort of VAD like thing and you actually could take very low energy sections and set them to some some very low or or near zero pause value I mean I m just saying if in fact it turns out that that these echoes that you are hearing are or pre echoes whichever they are are are part of what s causing the problem you actually could get rid of them Be pretty simple I mean you do it in a pretty conservative way so that if you made a mistake you were more likely to pause keep in an echo than to throw out speech,The professor thought it was possible to reduce the effects of reverberation by removing the low-energy segments. He thought a VAD-like approach would work. This would make it so that the model was more likely to keep an echo than throw out speech. "PhD C: Mm I do not see why why your signal is louder after processing because yo Grad E: I do not know why y either Professor B: I do not think just multiplying the signal by two would have any effect I mean I think if you really have louder signals what you mean is that you have pause better signal to noise ratio So if what you are doing is improving the signal to noise ratio then it would be better But just it being bigger if with the same signal to noise ratio Grad E: It w i i it would not affect things PhD C: Well the system is use pause the absolute energy so it s a little bit dependent on on the pause signal level But not so much I guess Professor B: Well But it s trained and tested on the same thing So if the if the if you change in both training and test the absolute level by a factor of two it will n have no effect PhD A: Did you add pause this data to the training set for the Aurora ? Or you just tested on this ?","PhD C was skeptical of why the signal was louder after processing. PhD C suggested that the system is not too dependent on the signal level, agreeing with the professor that improvement in the model was more likely dependent on the ratio." "Industrial Designer: it is pretty much like Mike draw drew the in the during the last meeting With the different perspectives of it we will begin with the front We have of course the the round shape the round basic shape with the upper part being the front Th So there is this part which is made of hard plastic the front And we are we are using different colours Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours and later we will put out more interesting covers with different patterns and pictures and everything But basically different colours bright colours not black too dark Fancy colours then we have the lower part of the of the device which is of course part of the back actually because it is also titanium You can see it also on the on the on the side view that only this part is the front and the rest of it the under the under side of it the back side and the lower part of the front is of course titanium made of titanium and has the titanium colour of course the look then we have on back on the front the logo in the upper corner which is made which is also part of the back part of the titanium titanium part User Interface: it is a double R but It is a double R Industrial Designer: It is a double R the logo User Interface: But it is very difficult to to draw that in Industrial Designer: it is difficult to draw so small but it is our double R logo is in there so that is the logo in the upper lef right corner Then we have the buttons it is difficult to draw again the little oval or round I think oval will be better for the for the d for the different channel buttons So oval n those are here And then we have the m The m User Interface: Channel up and volume ? Industrial Designer: the the con the the the the t volume and the channel controls in the middle here with kind of arrow shapes which makes it also a bit more exciting than basic round or square buttons And also here are the two buttons we agreed on We have the button Oh nei we the buttons here in the middle of the of the operators of the channel and volume changers And then we have here the Menu button and the User Interface: Menu for the LCD screen Industrial Designer: And the video button The And of course this low part this is the LCD screen this is what we made of it You can make suggestions if you want Project Manager: Well if I look at it the side the side view Industrial Designer: Maybe we maybe we should finish first our talk and then you can add suggestions Maybe I I do not want to I do not want to suppress you but n I will finish this quick I have had everything I guess on the front ? User Interface: No the back With the logo and our l Industrial Designer: the back We thought about the back is of course totally titanium And we thought about the logo big in the middle Just so again the double R We have then the logo on front and on the back Maybe that is too much but you have to say say that if you think that way User Interface: No I do not think And the Industrial Designer: And the company slogan we thought in a kind of arc shape above the logo","The Industrial Designer introduced the prototype of the product. It had not only the round basic shape which was made of hard plastics and titanium using different colors, but also the channel and volume buttons and so on. Basically , bright colours but not black were used, and the lower part of the device was made of titanium. On the side view, the product had the titanium colour and the logo was in the upper corner. Then the buttons like ""okay"", ""volumn"" and ""channel"", was with kind of arrow shapes, which made it more exciting than basic round or square buttons." "Project Manager: They the the the the the side view Industrial Designer: Side ? oh the side ? W we we he drew the s the side but you d you were not paying attention as usual Well any case we will discuss it now I think this is a pretty good good idea Marketing: I agree with the LCD screen You have it in your palm like this and you can watch watch the screen And if you have it li in the middle your hand might be over it Industrial Designer: But you you hold it like this User Interface: you you do not you do not grab it Industrial Designer: You are not holding it like this or something You y How do you call it ? Well y y y you do not have it like this You have it more like this You you you are using buttons this way or if you are righthanded this way Marketing: Like you are holding your telephone Because if you have a screen on it you want to look at your screen User Interface: That way it it falls into your hand I think Industrial Designer: And maybe you can you can grab it a bit higher Marketing: No I do not think so That is not the point Industrial Designer: Well the the Well that is a reason to to to put the LCD screen of course on the upper side but User Interface: Well f for as far as I can see three of us agree Project Manager: I think if you t if you three agree then then that is it User Interface: But you are the Project Manager you can make the hard decisions Project Manager: Yes So I c I c Well we will we we will do it like this Industrial Designer: But are d Can you live with it ? Project Manager: Alright if you think that that is the way it should Industrial Designer: Y y y y y you said it was totally unusable Project Manager: when I I my personal taste is that I want it to fall over my hands with a thick But In the market Industrial Designer: But d you do not think this is completely unusable I guess I think Project Manager: For me I I would not buy it Let us say it like that Industrial Designer: but of course y you are also human We have to take every everyone into account So Marketing: And you might be You might be target customer Industrial Designer: Well who who else thinks like you ? Project Manager: but that is that is that is that is more market research So let it be like this at at this moment Industrial Designer: Alright So that is that","The User Interface Designer thought it might be in the middle of the product because the way users hold the product wouldn't influence the view to the screen, but the Project Manager and the Marketing thought the screen might be covered when held by hands, so the users couldn't figure out what happened on the screen. Then the Project Manager proposed that it was totally unusable, still needing marketing research." "Industrial Designer: it is pretty much like Mike draw drew the in the during the last meeting With the different perspectives of it we will begin with the front We have of course the the round shape the round basic shape with the upper part being the front Th So there is this part which is made of hard plastic the front And we are we are using different colours Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours and later we will put out more interesting covers with different patterns and pictures and everything But basically different colours bright colours not black too dark Fancy colours then we have the lower part of the of the device which is of course part of the back actually because it is also titanium You can see it also on the on the on the side view that only this part is the front and the rest of it the under the under side of it the back side and the lower part of the front is of course titanium made of titanium and has the titanium colour of course the look then we have on back on the front the logo in the upper corner which is made which is also part of the back part of the titanium titanium part User Interface: it is a double R but It is a double R Industrial Designer: It is a double R the logo User Interface: But it is very difficult to to draw that in Industrial Designer: it is difficult to draw so small but it is our double R logo is in there so that is the logo in the upper lef right corner Then we have the buttons it is difficult to draw again the little oval or round I think oval will be better for the for the d for the different channel buttons So oval n those are here And then we have the m The m User Interface: Channel up and volume ? Industrial Designer: the the con the the the the t volume and the channel controls in the middle here with kind of arrow shapes which makes it also a bit more exciting than basic round or square buttons And also here are the two buttons we agreed on We have the button Oh nei we the buttons here in the middle of the of the operators of the channel and volume changers And then we have here the Menu button and the User Interface: Menu for the LCD screen Industrial Designer: And the video button The And of course this low part this is the LCD screen this is what we made of it You can make suggestions if you want Project Manager: Well if I look at it the side the side view Industrial Designer: Maybe we maybe we should finish first our talk and then you can add suggestions Maybe I I do not want to I do not want to suppress you but n I will finish this quick I have had everything I guess on the front ? User Interface: No the back With the logo and our l Industrial Designer: the back We thought about the back is of course totally titanium And we thought about the logo big in the middle Just so again the double R We have then the logo on front and on the back Maybe that is too much but you have to say say that if you think that way User Interface: No I do not think And the Industrial Designer: And the company slogan we thought in a kind of arc shape above the logo That is basically what we were thinking about User Interface: And about the side view This the front will not be as thick but again th the the drawing technique makes it very difficult to to really Industrial Designer: Oh and before I forget the the voice of course the voice recorder is at the bottom And you can record it using the the the back of the f w device Project Manager: When I look at when I look at this side view I think w when I have that in my hand it is terrible User Interface: Well it will not be visible Mm ? Project Manager: If if you look if if this this is thick and this is thin th th then it that it lies over your hands But Industrial Designer: Why ? Well it fits it it it it fits the hand mean the the the the Project Manager: Well what what what I what I agree is that when when you have such of an arc in the middle so that the the a the ends and the fronts is a bit thicker so th then it falls over your hands User Interface: If y If you handle a remote you you usually do not have your hand straight like this Industrial Designer: In the middle in the User Interface: You you have it a bit Marketing: It depends on the size If it is kind of small this is is great But if it is it is larger then you want to grab it Project Manager: And how large is it ? Industrial Designer: well H What do you suggest I mean we do ? This was Mikes prototype and y you seemed to agreed on it Project Manager: Well the sides I have not seen yet ? Industrial Designer: But now you have a totally different User Interface: Well they lay there all the time Industrial Designer: The size ? well the size does not really matter w I mean Project Manager: They the the the the the side view Industrial Designer: Side ? oh the side ? W we we he drew the s the side but you d you were not paying attention as usual Well any case we will discuss it now I think this is a pretty good good idea Marketing: I agree with the LCD screen You have it in your palm like this and you can watch watch the screen And if you have it li in the middle your hand might be over it Industrial Designer: But you you hold it like this User Interface: you you do not you do not grab it Industrial Designer: You are not holding it like this or something You y How do you call it ? Well y y y you do not have it like this You have it more like this You you you are using buttons this way or if you are righthanded this way Marketing: Like you are holding your telephone Because if you have a screen on it you want to look at your screen User Interface: That way it it falls into your hand I think Industrial Designer: And maybe you can you can grab it a bit higher Marketing: No I do not think so That is not the point Industrial Designer: Well the the Well that is a reason to to to put the LCD screen of course on the upper side but User Interface: Well f for as far as I can see three of us agree Project Manager: I think if you t if you three agree then then that is it User Interface: But you are the Project Manager you can make the hard decisions Project Manager: Yes So I c I c Well we will we we will do it like this Industrial Designer: But are d Can you live with it ? Project Manager: Alright if you think that that is the way it should Industrial Designer: Y y y y y you said it was totally unusable Project Manager: when I I my personal taste is that I want it to fall over my hands with a thick But In the market Industrial Designer: But d you do not think this is completely unusable I guess I think Project Manager: For me I I would not buy it Let us say it like that Industrial Designer: but of course y you are also human We have to take every everyone into account So Marketing: And you might be You might be target customer Industrial Designer: Well who who else thinks like you ? Project Manager: but that is that is that is that is more market research So let it be like this at at this moment Industrial Designer: Alright So that is that","The Project Manager thought the prototype was basically the same with the former one, and the thickness was not suitable for the target customers. Then the LCD screen might be covered when held by hands, so the users couldn't figure out what happened on the screen. Therefore from this perspective the screen was totally unusable, still needing marketing research." "User Interface: Why why do not we replace the titanium with plastic coloured titanium Industrial Designer: N not very practical Well Project Manager: You want to dump the titanium ? User Interface: well if we we we have to get cheaper Project Manager: And make all plastic then we ha then we are there Industrial Designer: But I am n I do not agree User Interface: But then we we have got to run through the eval evaluation process again Project Manager: Th then you have a ugly stupid l ugly looking dumb remote that that noone would buy User Interface: It is not ugly looking The looks remain the same Project Manager: No I do not think so User Interface: Well I do think so Industrial Designer: I think the titanium just provided the the tough look and the and the Project Manager: and th that it is strong and Industrial Designer: And also the the older people will like it because of that And because i Alright it is not our target audience but it is it is useful if it is important for old people Project Manager: We still we had to focus to get more people from the younger group but not lose the one Industrial Designer: I think the titanium is very important User Interface: alright but then we we will not get there Industrial Designer: we have a problem W But you can better dump the LCD screen then User Interface: We can dump the special colour We l we use plastic And plastic is already in colour I think Marketing: I do not think you should dump the LCD screen Or you shou It is Or change the titanium or dump the LCD screen But I think you could better change titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than lose the LCD screen Because you have lots of functions in it too Industrial Designer: I agree with that So we you we use Unfortunately Titaniumcoloured plastic Project Manager: I will put in the report we that we think that fourteen point one is the l m lowest price you can make a remote for that is trendy d these days Industrial Designer: So titaniumcoloured plastic for the back Project Manager: I I will talk to the managers User Interface: No no no no W Titanium stays there Project Manager: Titanium I thi I think this this is this is e really good re remote But Industrial Designer: but it it is not good enough So we have to use the ditch the titanium I am afraid Project Manager: Ah those those account managers what do th d what do they know ? Industrial Designer: What do we Well what do we know ? All we want is a is a fancy design but we do not really consider the costs So User Interface: No because we did not know anything about it Project Manager: One and a half Euros ? Marketing: If you do not have the money you can not make it Industrial Designer: But we have to deal with it now So Marketing: So s If you do not have the money you can not make it So this is too expensive So we have to make it cheaper Industrial Designer: Titanium gone and add plastic User Interface: but then we have got money left Industrial Designer: And on plastic times two and then we are there ? Project Manager: Well no it is just all plastic Marketing: It is just free man Industrial Designer: No two for the to make it clear Project Manager: But then we can add the special colour ? As we have money over left And we still have money left","The User Interface thought it was reasonable to replace the titanium with titanium-coloured plastic. When discussing how to reduce the cost of the product, the user interface designer insisted that if they could only choose to save the titanium exterior or the LCD screen, it would be a better choice to save the LCD screen and dump the titanium cover but replacing it with hard plastics. The result was the major of the group including Marketing agreeed the suggestion." "User Interface: It is not ugly looking The looks remain the same Project Manager: No I do not think so User Interface: Well I do think so Industrial Designer: I think the titanium just provided the the tough look and the and the Project Manager: and th that it is strong and Industrial Designer: And also the the older people will like it because of that And because i Alright it is not our target audience but it is it is useful if it is important for old people Project Manager: We still we had to focus to get more people from the younger group but not lose the one Industrial Designer: I think the titanium is very important User Interface: alright but then we we will not get there Industrial Designer: we have a problem W But you can better dump the LCD screen then User Interface: We can dump the special colour We l we use plastic And plastic is already in colour I think Marketing: I do not think you should dump the LCD screen Or you shou It is Or change the titanium or dump the LCD screen But I think you could better change titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than lose the LCD screen","The Industrial Designer suggested that the titanium provided the tough look and the strong cover to protect the product. Besides, the older customers would like it much more because it fit their taste. So the titanium was important and shouldn't be replacing by titanium-like plastic or saving the LCD screen but dumping the titanium." "User Interface: Why why do not we replace the titanium with plastic coloured titanium Industrial Designer: N not very practical Well Project Manager: You want to dump the titanium ? User Interface: well if we we we have to get cheaper Project Manager: And make all plastic then we ha then we are there Industrial Designer: But I am n I do not agree User Interface: But then we we have got to run through the eval evaluation process again Project Manager: Th then you have a ugly stupid l ugly looking dumb remote that that noone would buy User Interface: It is not ugly looking The looks remain the same Project Manager: No I do not think so User Interface: Well I do think so Industrial Designer: I think the titanium just provided the the tough look and the and the Project Manager: and th that it is strong and Industrial Designer: And also the the older people will like it because of that And because i Alright it is not our target audience but it is it is useful if it is important for old people Project Manager: We still we had to focus to get more people from the younger group but not lose the one Industrial Designer: I think the titanium is very important User Interface: alright but then we we will not get there Industrial Designer: we have a problem W But you can better dump the LCD screen then User Interface: We can dump the special colour We l we use plastic And plastic is already in colour I think Marketing: I do not think you should dump the LCD screen Or you shou It is Or change the titanium or dump the LCD screen But I think you could better change titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than lose the LCD screen Because you have lots of functions in it too Industrial Designer: I agree with that So we you we use Unfortunately Titaniumcoloured plastic Project Manager: I will put in the report we that we think that fourteen point one is the l m lowest price you can make a remote for that is trendy d these days","When evaluating the cost of the product, the group discussed some details of the components and made some adjustment on the chip, exterior cover material, curve, button and LCD screen. Then they agreed that it could be better changing the titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than losing the LCD screen. They finally got an estimate of fourteen point one Euros, which was above the budget." "User Interface: Yes well let us talk about the interface concept first I will I will discuss the buttons we just chose show you some samples discuss some colours and design maybe already And my personal preferences Well we chose the power button to switch the television on and off The bu the mute button to switch the volume on and o on and off The channels buttons one to nine and off zero to nine and the button to choose higher channels than nine the volume and channel quadrants left and right up and down arrows to do the volume and channel And the menu menu button to man manipulate the LCD display I found some interesting samples Examples well what is pretty standard is that it is that they are all pretty high Large and and and pretty thin and and long Marketing: A lot a lot of buttons buttons User Interface: power buttons are mostly at the top left or right well we see the the the same arrows Like there And well arrow b buttons can be blue And what is interesting is the the the icons on the buttons Some buttons have icons like the play and stop but we do not use that But these we we have to choose the right icons or or letters this is the V for volume but they are both a V","User Interface introduced to use the power button to switch the television on and off. The mute button to switch the volume on and off. The channels buttons, one to nine, or zero to nine. The volume and channel quadrants, from left to right, and up and down arrows, to control the volume and channel. And last, the menu button to manipulate the LCD display. User Interface also suggested that power buttons are usually at the top left or right and the team should decide to choose the right icons, or letters on the buttons." "User Interface: so the The icons on the arrows as well you mean Project Manager: Mmhmm Yes The second one User Interface: well that is something to think about Industrial Designer: maybe I will have something in my presentation And you will see it User Interface: well I do not I do not know if we have to discuss this already or in the next meeting But as we have to to to design the the case and the whole remote control in our our our corporate company colours and the logo I would recommend a yellow case round edges The logo at the bottom And well maybe each each set of buttons has has his own colour So it is good recognisable K so I think Project Manager: No it is not flower power User Interface: But No no no But this has to be has to be trendy and and so good good icons on the buttons and and big buttons is my personal opinion","User Interface believed that the team should design the case and the whole remote control in the company. And for colors and the logo, User Interface would recommend a yellow case, with round edges and the logo at the bottom. User Interface also suggested a set of buttons with its own color to make it recognizable. But this idea was turned down by Project Manager." "User Interface: Yes well let us talk about the interface concept first I will I will discuss the buttons we just chose show you some samples discuss some colours and design maybe already And my personal preferences Well we chose the power button to switch the television on and off The bu the mute button to switch the volume on and o on and off The channels buttons one to nine and off zero to nine and the button to choose higher channels than nine the volume and channel quadrants left and right up and down arrows to do the volume and channel And the menu menu button to man manipulate the LCD display I found some interesting samples Examples well what is pretty standard is that it is that they are all pretty high Large and and and pretty thin and and long Marketing: A lot a lot of buttons buttons User Interface: power buttons are mostly at the top left or right well we see the the the same arrows Like there And well arrow b buttons can be blue And what is interesting is the the the icons on the buttons Some buttons have icons like the play and stop but we do not use that But these we we have to choose the right icons or or letters this is the V for volume but they are both a V So it is it is not really very clear what is the function of that Project Manager: Can you go back one page ? For the menu what do we use for that ? We do not have buttons for the menu Or we may have to use channel of the volume and channel User Interface: I thought that was our idea Project Manager: You have to put it on the User Interface: Or or this And that the menu button is Project Manager: but has to be clear that you can use the arrows User Interface: so the The icons on the arrows as well you mean Project Manager: Mmhmm Yes The second one User Interface: well that is something to think about Industrial Designer: maybe I will have something in my presentation And you will see it User Interface: well I do not I do not know if we have to discuss this already or in the next meeting But as we have to to to design the the case and the whole remote control in our our our corporate company colours and the logo I would recommend a yellow case round edges The logo at the bottom And well maybe each each set of buttons has has his own colour So it is good recognisable K so I think Project Manager: No it is not flower power User Interface: But No no no But this has to be has to be trendy and and so good good icons on the buttons and and big buttons is my personal opinion","The team believed that there were always large and many buttons on the standard remote control. To design its unique device, they decided on a pure color one with arrows to eliminate the number of buttons used. They also planned to incorporate the company logo. Moreover, User Interface suggested a set of buttons with its own color to make it recognizable. But this idea was turned down by Project Manager." Industrial Designer: at first we will I will f say something about what younger people want our group w w we want to sell our remote controls to And then I will discuss what my opinion is about the costs about what battery is in it what kind of buttons also First the younger people they want like soft mat materials and primary colours Like totally yellow totally red so it is visible the shapes are curved and round like you also said Maybe it is nice to get a remote control not like all the other ones straight and flat and long But to give him the shape of your hand so you it is easier to use or something like that But that is just an idea And then I will have to discuss about the costs of all the things for the remote control The battery there are few options I think the best option is to use the basic battery So everybody can buy it at the at the supermarket Or use a k kinetic battery like within a watch When you shake it a few times it it is loaded the the form of the remote control I think it is also nice have it curved And maybe like it is handshaped so you take it here in your hand and here are the buttons material you use plastic Hard plastic because it will not have to burst like in the in one time And also rubber because the younger people like that what we see in the research the pushbuttons We have one new thing discovered It is a scroll push thing like a mouse Maybe it is easy to use for the channels When you want to go m move up you just scroll up and click on the button if you want to see the next if you want to see that channel And also for the mouse for the volume it is also easy to use Just scroll a bit up scroll a bit down And that is also easy just w when you have a thing like this and you get it here You can do it with your thumb And with your l left hand you can push the buttons,"Industrial Designer said that the younger people fancied soft materials and primary colors. For example, total yellow or totally red could be visible. The shapes could be curved and round,which would be easier to use. It would be better to use the basic battery so everybody could get it at the supermarket, or to use a kinetic battery after shaking it a few times, it could be loaded. Industrial Designer suggested hard plastic material and rubber since the younger people liked that. The survey also discovered that the young favored a scroll push like the mouse to use for channels and volume." "Industrial Designer: if you push channel one you can see channel one The electrics with a scroll push button we must use regular chips There are also simple chips They are cheaper but then we have just a basic remote control and I think there are a lot of those things and people will not buy it any more They have seen enough of it And you have also advanced chips But that is with the LCD screen And the costs will increase a lot more And I think our budget is too low to use and an LCD and the chip who is more expensive And maybe it is also then thoughtful if we you use as different kind of shapes for the for remote control that we then use the primary colours Like you get a yellow remote control red one blue one et cetera You have any more questions about this ? I think the main thing is we look at the costs And not too basic not a basic remote control who everybody already has Marketing: But thi i This is with an LCD ? No Project Manager: But the LCD is easy when you use the scroll buttons Then you can scroll you see what number and then you push Industrial Designer: But then what I say the costs will get a lot higher Project Manager: But then it is not easy to use scroll wheel If you do not Industrial Designer: Th then you will see it on the television Project Manager: yes But then then you go one down one up When you scroll Industrial Designer: but l when you see a menu on the television it is like you see one to twenty you go s scroll up and push number tw twenty Project Manager: but like we said before it has to be used on every television So you may not be No The television must do that So Industrial Designer: Mmhmm I think the younger people will have newer televisions which can provide our remote control Project Manager: but young people have to have all their room And mostly they are smaller So Industrial Designer: Yes But that will not be a problem I think Project Manager: Most the times that are not advanced televisions Industrial Designer: No but then we will get to the regular remote controls And I think what I said everybody has them has them already And they go to a supermarket and buy them for two Euros and ge and get the most cheapest thing And I think we must look further to to devel d develop something news","Industrial Designer introduced both simple chips and advanced chips could be used for the mouse. But it would require the use of LCD display, which would highly increase the cost. Project Manager agreed that the LCD was easy when using the scroll buttons and could see the number. But Project Manager argued that young people were less likely to have their own room to afford a LCD TV and decided not to choose the advanced ones." "Industrial Designer: uhuh How w how we how we make it ? Should not we first discuss about like what w we all Project Manager: but maybe we can paint it what do we want ? Industrial Designer: but if I paint with Project Manager: Something like this ? Or Shapes or What do we need ?","There were two groups, the young and trendy, and the old and rich. For the first group, they would like fruit and vegetables as a theme for clothes, shoes, and also products. And for the material, a spongy feeling one would be better. But the old and rich would like dark colors, simple, and recognizable shapes as well as familiar material, wood especially." "Industrial Designer: Or no scroll things Just a shape And No no It will not work Project Manager: For the young peoples I think scroll buttons good So Think we have to keep them Industrial Designer: Or a remote control more like joystick Project Manager: but is it That is not expensive than Joystick is better A small one Industrial Designer: A small one like this like a Nintendo k Project Manager: No just like in a Then it is not so big Industrial Designer: No no no I mean the the shape of the remote control Project Manager: Oh the sh but then you can Industrial Designer: Just like a Playstation thing Project Manager: So Maybe if it is possible it is not too expensive I think a joystick is better A small one So please look at it Industrial Designer: No that is I got Marketing: And on the LCD how much it costs ? it costs extra ? Industrial Designer: they are not in details It is more expensive or less expensive huh ? Project Manager: we I think you get it So after this meeting you have half an hour to fix it Industrial Designer: Then I have to come with it I got my personal costs I I do not I do not know the costs Then I will make something up Project Manager: So do we have other concepts ? Then for the components we use a normal battery Then it is Ch cheapest way I think Industrial Designer: or the or the kinetic with normal battery Project Manager: No no kinetic Kinetic is ch makes it more expensive Industrial Designer: I think it is more expensive Project Manager: So we use a normal battery Chip Depends on the LCD Industrial Designer: If we use a scroll then we have the regular chip If we do not use a scroll then we can use the simple chip Project Manager: And we If you use the LCD we have to So depends on the LCD and the scroll Industrial Designer: If we No scrollwheel So I have this So it will be the advanced chip or the regu or the regular chip Project Manager: So the shapes of the design depends on the LCD and But it has to be small I think Industrial Designer: Or shall we just put it on the pistol thing ? And then just put also on LCD on it ? Project Manager: If you have pistol it LCDs not easy Y y but If you use a phone Industrial Designer: If you I use my thumb Project Manager: k but but then you have it Like th if you have pistol you have it so And the screen is Well then you have to keep it this way to look at the screen Industrial Designer: If you have a joystick on No if you have like an a ni a Playstation game controller And you move up f forward down left Then you have just a little bit curved It is not just straight That is how we use it That is why they make joysticks like that I think",Project Manager decided to use normal battery and no kinetic.The team would try to incorporate the joystick to solve the scroll chip problem. But if the advanced chips would be used still remained to be discussed. The shape of the design and the use of chips would depend on the LCD display but it should be small. Dr David Blaney: Well shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail ? It is undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities They result from three main causes : one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18yearolds which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK There are increased pension costs and actually increased costs generally And of course we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England and whether that might play into Wales and also Brexit These challenges are not unique to Wales the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another So this is not a Welsh issue Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales there was a preexisting funding in resource between England and Wales and even now that is still the case So Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system That is a challenge and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students and that is fine The moneys gone into the system but it has not gone into universities necessarily So these are serious challenges for institutions to manage but I think it is a managed situation We are not seeing a crisis we are seeing some real challenges and there is a distinction I think between— We have to understand though that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately but there is a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales They are taking out capacity they are not cutting at fat now they are cutting out core capacity And so the range of the curriculum the range of research and innovation the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that And against that backdrop the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that The Diamond money is coming in This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource through us to higher education And the projections in future years are better still and that will be extremely important The performance of the sector is very good we had the national student survey results out yesterday Wales is still the best in the UK which is excellent We have the best impact from research in Wales across the UK So all of that is very positive but that is also being done at some cost There are some very tired staff in universities and we have seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well,"Dr David Blaney introduced that the first was the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds and as a result there was an increased pension cost generally. Second, current uncertainty also came as a result of the political environment like the Augar review in England and Brexit. This might deepen the funding gap. Third, due to the political decision to invest in students, universities were faced with challenges of providing more services under limited funding." "Bethan Owen: And there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates So for example Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing which you draw down as you are spending So in the short term the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and over the next two or three years will be utilised for that Angela Burns AM: So overall you are painting a picture of a sector that is under a significant degree of financial stress and this is obviously using your key financial indicators Do you monitor each and every university or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is ? Bethan Owen: We monitor we receive forecasts fiveyear forecasts and we meet frequently with all our universities now It varies depending on the risks of the universities as to how frequently we meet but we are actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July the changes even in the 12month period are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is The forecasts if I just run through— We had a sector that in 201718 had a deficit Although it had a turnover and income of £15 billion which had increased nonetheless it had a small deficit of 04 per cent of income in 201718 which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 17 per cent but notably again the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that for 201819 we should have a sector that is roughly in a breakeven position but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs and there have been significant changes in pension costs both for the teachers pension scheme and the universities superannuation scheme as well and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income certainly their fee income is not increasing and that is the challenge Angela Burns AM: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years ? Dr David Blaney: I do not think so As I said earlier on we are not seeing a crisis we are seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage At the moment our sense is they are managing them so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that insofar as we can see it we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they are facing and are actually engaging those challenges properly and we are seeing that at the moment So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out so more jobs being lost more capacity being lost but that is not the same as falling over I do not see people falling over There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about but it is not a policy position and it is not always a good shortterm response to crisis anyway actually But I think as I say we are in a managed situation but the challenges are quite acute But I do not see an institution falling over in the foreseeable future","Bethan Owen took Cardiff University as an example and he believed that in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff would appear as though they have significant cash balances. However, the investing was much restricted and it could not be a long-term solution towards the serious financial stress. To help with this process as well as monitoring the regulated approaches, the government received forecasts, around five-year forecasts which indicated that, for 2018-19, there would be a sector that was roughly in a break-even position, since the income was not increasing, which was the biggest problem. But luckily, they were not likely to lose any of the universities." "Angela Burns AM: When you talk about structural change are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close ? I bring this up because I am the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire and I have had multiple representations from students and their parents who are about to go to Lampeter and who have been told that courses are being restructured there is a massive staff loss and they have concerns about whether the threeyear commitment they are about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained So I am trying to drill down a little bit because I think it is only fair for the students to know what they are up against and also it is a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something can not you ? Because if enough people believe it then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university really topquality in medieval literature in archaeology And I am just talking about one but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes Dr David Blaney: So there is quite a lot in that question actually Let me try not to forget any of the elements First of all your comment about causing a run is a serious consideration So if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week from my reading of the transcript it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making There was reference to the national student survey scores and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student because you are looked after properly in Wales But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there is a crisis and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it did not At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students it is really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation So we do need to make sure I think all of us that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that is not actually as acute as the media are portraying it and that is very harsh I am not being critical of the political process here but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we do not start a run on this In terms of the specifics at Lampeter we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students That is just not what institutions do So there is an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments and that is a contractual obligation anyway so it is a legal obligation But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they have put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study So they are not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they are not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that And if you think about it in a market context it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that Angela Burns AM: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint Davids financial plans Dr David Blaney: Yes I understand that so let us come back to the material uncertainty Interruption No I understand and that is fine What I am hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students They will look after their students and if they are recruiting to programmes they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run and run through to completion And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have In terms of our oversight and monitoring our primary consideration again is the interest of the students They are the people who have in many ways least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed Although they do have a voice and actually the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are again better than elsewhere in the UK But nonetheless we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing And so that is our primary consideration when we are looking at these institutions Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis So we have machinery which has 7080 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they are facing So it is not the challenges you face it is the way you face your challenges—it is a cliché—and at the moment they are managing them but if we were in any way concerned that they were not the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited and we do intervene when we have to","Angela Burns AM shared with the findings from multiple representations from students and brought up the concerns of the consistency of funding. Dr David Blaney commented that causing a run was a serious consideration and it was a legal obligation to meet the commitments. So the current structural change would not equal that certain offshoots or divisions might close since the oversight and monitoring, the governments' primary consideration was always the interest of the students. Unless there was a suitable solution to all, material uncertainty for students should not be brought up." "Angela Burns AM: Well following on from what you said I have just got two really specific technical questions then to ask because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on So considering how much is invested in their estates are you happy that each universitys estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governingbody oversight in place ? Dr David Blaney: Yes so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant subcommittees in respect of every institution so there is proper governance oversight And in all of those instances there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates So the machinery is in place— Angela Burns AM: Because it is the big thing that drives most of university borrowing is not it ? So if our universities are on a sticky wicket we just need to know that the borrowing that they are undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate So as long as you are content if I can hear you say that—Laughter Dr David Blaney: We are content on two fronts : one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing they have to get our consent as well And what we do not do is secondguess everything but what we do do is make sure that the governing body or its relevant committees have been asking the right questions So there are two bits to this Bethan Owen: Can I just add to that then ? In asking for the forecasts we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios So to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past where there is potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income That is not the core forecast but a scenario so that it is quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth and if that growth does not come through what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict certainly what is happened in the last two years probably in universities So there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings because that is essential for maintaining their liquidity Angela Burns AM: Which actually neatly thank you brings me to my last question which is : have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due ? Bethan Owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015 financial reporting standard 102 so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants but it was because the accounts were looking very different The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements largely student accommodation arrangements and pension costs significantly were recognised in the accounts So most universities have had to renegotiate covenants but we are not aware of any who have had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements which they have done earlier this year and they have now negotiated new covenants It is a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control So again from that perspective we have the covenants built into our forecasts we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants The nature of those covenants vary but most of them require a measure of cash flow a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system as well as our ongoing monitoring as well","Dr David Blaney introduced that there was proper governance oversight since the estates strategies that institutions operate were overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution. The government was content with the fact that the governance machinery within the institutions was structured appropriately and if the universities would like to engage any other things than trivial borrowing, they need to get the government consent as well. To prevent universities from breaking the loan, the government included close monitoring considering the change of borrowing in the system, as well as constant ongoing monitoring." "Hefin David AM: So what about risk appetite ? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite ? Dr David Blaney: I do not think so and this manifests itself in two ways So we would see this coming through in forecasts and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings predominantly Actually we would see it in other ways as well Our links into institutions are many and various and we have our formal stuff but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we— One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can not hope to in England It is just completely different And so we would see it in other ways But we have in some instances I think it is fair to say helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations So where we have seen things and we think That just looks ridiculously optimistic we have just asked the questions We do not say No you can not do that because they are autonomous they make the decisions but we try to make sure that they are asking the right questions Hefin David AM: So would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves in that where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge ? Or the fact you have just said that does that suggest to us that actually they are falling short ? Dr David Blaney: I think there is a mixture of things going on We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing So you have a governing body with a range of perspectives and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution and just occasionally it is helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things So I do not think it is a shortfall as such but I just think—","Dr David Blaney believed that governing bodies were not likely to exhibit as an imprudent risk appetite since they would see the potential risks coming through in forecasts, in requests for borrowings, predominantly and many other ways. Although the government body included a slightly different perspective, divisions were not falling short. Besides, commitments from enthusiastic people and occasionally with a slightly external perspective would also be a help." "Dr David Blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that So we have relationships with the banks they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it Interestingly for example when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bailouts of universities we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be So they are very keenly aware of what we do So it is not really a governance failure it is just that the machinery includes us Hefin David AM: that is important And one of the things from a distance—I mean I have been involved in different ways in an institution and looking at the institutions from a distance There are people as you say involved and people always make the difference in different cultures Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well ? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there ? Dr David Blaney: I would say in the main yes Occasionally we help the governors to ask the right questions so occasionally that external perspective we have just discussed is helpful in that regard Actually there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies inevitably—that is not something that is remarkable—and we can feel that as well We have conversations with both governing bodies and executives Hefin David AM: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know media reports and— Dr David Blaney: Yes sometimes these things can spill and the governing bodies also include student representation staff representation who are typically union reps and so you know there are all sorts of— I am not in any way saying that people are indiscreet but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context So sometimes it can spill And these tensions are not allout war but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through and that is governance working properly I think","Dr David Blaney suggested that machinery of monitoring depended on having a body like HEFCW to connect different parts. Also as Hefin David AM pointed out that people always made the difference in different cultures and external opinions were a plus. Although opinions from student representation, staff representation, and other typically union reps who were included by the governing bodies spilt, they could, in the end, work it out properly." "Hefin David AM: And a last question : you have identified one university as high risk five as medium and two as low in the short to medium term You are obviously not going to tell us which but what I am interested in is the direction of travel and whether those that are medium—are they at any point at risk of becoming high in the near future ? Dr David Blaney: I think it is fair to say that the direction of travel is that we are seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales and it is about the financial pressures that we have already discussed this morning And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement and indeed other bits of money now and again are so important So she is doing what she can and that is really good but we always knew that between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation there was going to be a valley to cross The new machinery costs more as you phase out the old as well So the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure there is a demographic dip and there are the other contextual factors we have discussed We always knew there was going to be a valley And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really do not have to take out because they do not want to reduce capacity which they will struggle to recover again when the financial position improves So they are seeing deficits which are managed deficits where they are spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in So they are being as responsible as we could expect them to be in this Hefin David AM: And if you are back in a year or twos time the next few years are we confident that there will not be more in the highrisk category ? You said you do not see collapse but are we confident there will not be more in the highrisk category ? Dr David Blaney: Well I think what I would always say about this process is that it does not guarantee 100 per cent accuracy We can only go on what we can see So I would not— HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation so I am not going to say we are confident but that does not mean to say we are worried either Hefin David AM: Right So to answer my question : are we likely to see more in the highrisk category or not ?","To answer Hefin David AM's question, Dr David Blaney suggested that the government was seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it was mainly about the financial pressures. Since the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure, as there was a demographic dip and there were the other contextual factors, there would be more universities entering the high-risk category. Dr David Blaney concluded that the government would not guarantee 100 per cent accuracy of the process." Bethan Owen: And just to add I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales but from England and internationally—so that is a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in and that also brings economic benefits So I think those are the two that we are correction : need to be able to maintain : the institutions as attractive options for students and that our research capacity is invested in,"Bethan Owen suggested that maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students would be a key driven for solving the financial stress. Also, the research portfolio should be heavily invested in, which would also bring economic benefits." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes no problem I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms But of course the sum has not actually increased over a period of nine years Dr David Blaney: The reason the sum has not increased is because we have not had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system We would dearly love to increase it Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding for a number of reasons The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base which is sustained by QR funding If they go for UKbased competitive research funding that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix So they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research with the expectation that QR will plug the And we know that although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that actually it could do so much more if it just had more scale So we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important and it is important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time It is almost impossible for a body like us far less the Government to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from and QR provides the flexibility for institutions which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic","Sian Gwenllian AM pointed out that it was recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms, but the sum had not actually increased over a period of nine years. Dr David Blaney explained the reason as there was not enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations to other bits of the HE system. Although it was very clear about the importance of investing in QR research funding but the current capacity would not allow this ambition. However, it would be regarded as a fundamental approach." "Sian Gwenllian AM: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research to all intents and purposes ? Dr David Blaney: Not directly We have relied on the expert assessment of people like Graeme Reid It is sometimes more effective to have external experts making these points than us or the sector",Dr David Blaney suggested that the government was relying on expert assessment since sometimes it would be more effective to have external experts making these points than the internal sector. "Sian Gwenllian AM: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research which is educational research How does your allocation for 201920 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically ? Dr David Blaney: Bethan did you want to say something on this ? Bethan Owen: I was just going to add that when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales compared with the rest of the UK it is easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England so the figures show that we receive less of the money that is available which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage so we are in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that is available as well Sian Gwenllian AM: So there is a knockon to that that is what you are trying to say But from the point of view of my question on educational research— ? Dr David Blaney: So we have provided funding in 201718 and 201819 to WISERD Education which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities specifically looking at educational issues and we are providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Governments existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the threeto15 curriculum in Wales I will not go into the full detail of it now but it is a fivepartner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff Cardiff Met Trinity Saint David Aber Bangor and the University of South Wales So it is a collaborative effort and we have in the past also funded WISERD Education so it is an important research facility and increasingly being used I am delighted to say by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking Sian Gwenllian AM: And likewise in 201920 there will be allocations specifically for this Dr David Blaney: It is a bit early to say yet We have not allocated anything specifically in the main allocations that we have put out There might be others to come but we are not yet in a position to say Sian Gwenllian AM: Well could you provide the remit letter from—Inaudible—do that ? You have to do everything in the remit letters Dr David Blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters as the wording goes So we have it in our sights but we are not yet ready to make announcements","To start with, Bethan Owen first pointed out that figures showed that the percentage of income that had come from research in Wales was smaller than that in England, so the Welsh universities were receiving less of the money that was available, which was a factor that resulted from having less QR as a percentage. To tackle this issue, the government had provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which was a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues. However, it was still early to see how allocation for 2019-20 would work." "Dr David Blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters as the wording goes So we have it in our sights but we are not yet ready to make announcements Sian Gwenllian AM: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union Of course this is going to have a farreaching impact on future research and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact So what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding ?","Dr David Blaney suggested that the main challenge was finding the money. Although there was an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, that was not sustainable and certainly not enough. Also, the Welsh government had recently issued their own vision for research and innovation and more investment in the Welsh research base would make the Welsh universities be more competitive in accessing funding at a UK level." "Industrial Designer: here we have our prototype model Project Manager: And you have some slides then ? Industrial Designer: we have also some slides User Interface: Yes and place some slides so this is our remote control It is a r working prototype You can use it now by switching all these buttons So first I present as we came to this perfect model and then we will give some technical specifications That is well so that is that Please next slide We analysed all the fruits and contacted NASA and made some real good If you can see this and the stars are showing that And s society will accept that For sure And making some analysis of different fruits we choose the ultimate form ultimate colours and ultimate smell of it S please next slide But we still did not want to go far from our titanium idea because it is the most of the moder the m the modern material we can p select And it is practical And it is still say it is for our needs so please press something And as I said it is perfect Everyone is f really really glad to obtain an s such a r such a device So you can touch it with your hands Project Manager: What do you say ? Marketing: If I if I need so Hopefully my daughter will like it User Interface: Y and we got the answer it is yes of course Marketing: Yes of course Of c course User Interface: please next slide this is a prototype You can have a look at it and That is all I wanted to say Now it is technical specification by our colleague Marketing: Oh there is a button missing Industrial Designer: This this is really flexible You can add your buttons So as we discussed we have to switch on switch off whenever we want And so we have buttons and using LCD or like you can use this jog wheel and select which ever option on the LCD and then do on and off Then you ha you will have volume control So you you can press these buttons to increase or decrease the volume And we have some LCD controls Like m switching the LCD display if you want to use LCD or you do not want you can just use normal button And we have speech recognition Here you have microphone and then it date records your voice and then it try to recognise And it can also do the action And location finder And we want to do the location basically using speech recogniser You can just say where is my remote control Or you can just give some nickname to your remote control like Bobby And then it will say hi hi and then you can use it So our team is now fruits Mainly strawberry So you can have And then you can see the look LCD and all the switches Material we want to stick to titanium We will send we want to Marketing: Fruit smelling spongy titanium I did not know it exist but that is great Industrial Designer: or s So we want to have simple and perfect shapes like I shown in these phones You can have your own designs and and you can feel simple designs And you can choose colours on your day for each day or even many colours Project Manager: Hoho That is for the LCD or for the titanium ? Marketing: You mean we can change the colour of th Industrial Designer: With titanium it is it is silver User Interface: We are still working on titanium So r we will start with LCD You can ask Bob It is Tuesday Project Manager: Hey you know you are theme today Industrial Designer: Even you can configure your colours for its the depending on your mood or s And you can have many colours on weekends Or Project Manager: And w wait wh what are the strawberries for ? Wh wh Industrial Designer: Ah these are like sensors Marketing: What do you think ? Strawberry sensors Very useful","With a working prototype, the user interface designer displayed the appearance and the texture of the product, which was fruit-like and spongy. As for the material, they still wanted to use titanium because it was the most modern material that they could select. Then the industrial designer gave some technical specifications on the product, including instructions on buttons, LCD display, speech recognition and location finder." "User Interface: Now it is technical specification by our colleague Marketing: Oh there is a button missing Industrial Designer: This this is really flexible You can add your buttons So as we discussed we have to switch on switch off whenever we want And so we have buttons and using LCD or like you can use this jog wheel and select which ever option on the LCD and then do on and off Then you ha you will have volume control So you you can press these buttons to increase or decrease the volume And we have some LCD controls Like m switching the LCD display if you want to use LCD or you do not want you can just use normal button And we have speech recognition Here you have microphone and then it date records your voice and then it try to recognise And it can also do the action And location finder And we want to do the location basically using speech recogniser You can just say where is my remote control Or you can just give some nickname to your remote control like Bobby And then it will say hi hi and then you can use it","According to the technical specifications given by the industrial designer, the product was very flexible because users could add buttons. Users could use the jog wheel to select whichever option on the LCD and do the power control. There was also an LCD control, so users could switch on the LCD display if they wanted to use LCD and use a normal button if they didn't want to use LCD. What's more, the controller had the functions of speech recognition and location finder." "Industrial Designer: or s So we want to have simple and perfect shapes like I shown in these phones You can have your own designs and and you can feel simple designs And you can choose colours on your day for each day or even many colours Project Manager: Hoho That is for the LCD or for the titanium ? Marketing: You mean we can change the colour of th Industrial Designer: With titanium it is it is silver User Interface: We are still working on titanium So r we will start with LCD You can ask Bob It is Tuesday Project Manager: Hey you know you are theme today Industrial Designer: Even you can configure your colours for its the depending on your mood or s And you can have many colours on weekends Or","The industrial designer recommended to design several simple and perfect shapes so that users could choose the design they like. Also, they should make the colour of the LCD screen changeable to enable users to choose colours for each day depending on their mood." "Project Manager: let us see if th it is meet the evaluation criterium Marketing: Mmhmm Let us see if this if you meet the evaluation criterion So evaluation please So You made a very nice prototype and I think we now need altogether to try to evaluate it to see if it makes sense to do it if it fulfils our what we want to do and things like that So mm next slide please As you know before going and creating and producing these strawberry remote control it is very important to first verify if it makes sense if we have a chance to sell it so we need to evaluate it try to do it in a constative way and as much as we can To so what I propose is that we are going to to have this scale from one to seven One meaning that ye yes it fulfils the the criterion whatever it is And seven meaning no it does not fulfil at all And we are all l going to list all the criterion I am going to go to that next slide and together try to evaluate this according to this criterion and from one to seven And then we are just going to have an average which will give us the value of our remote control So maybe we can have a look at the criteria ? So these are the criterion I am I thought were important Of course this can be discussed but let us let us see so let us vote So we have fancy here and we have the scale from one to seven with four in the middle what do you think is it fancy ? Project Manager: I think that fancy we can say it is fancy Marketing: It is very very fancy Or have you ever seen something like that ? Project Manager: Oh I am not the d the only one choosing what do you think ? Marketing: What do you think ? Is it The weight is later We are on the fanciness now I think it is quite fancy Industrial Designer: We can give at least five or six seven Marketing: It is so No it is it is one Project Manager: It is in the other Industrial Designer: Oh Oh So Oh Oh So Marketing: o one means it is yes a very fancy and seven mean no at all So it is one or two Project Manager: Two Let us say two Marketing: What do you think ? Two ? So what about technology ? We have we have speech recognition we have location based Change colour I mean that is very Project Manager: I think it is a Marketing: d I think it is a one for that at least Industrial Designer: still we need to cha Marketing: So let us suppose my daughter take it and and through it away Do you think it makes sense that it is going to live again ? maybe not the prototype Let us try Oh my god we just lost one strawberry User Interface: No How can I say this Industrial Designer: we can easily plug it User Interface: It is still it is still working and your daughter got a bonus Marketing: So it is not so bad I I would say three that does make sense ? Useful Well so the question is does it have the minimum requirement of re remote control ? So I do not know These buttons are It not clear Project Manager: Oh let us me try Marketing: But you have at least next produce Project Manager: What is next please ? Industrial Designer: channel I this is volume control and channel changes These are the main Project Manager: And you can do di two sites ? Industrial Designer: and you can do on LCD using these going to scrolling all the option So if you do not want Marketing: So but for instance because the LCD is not touch control touch screen you can not go to channel twenty five directly Project Manager: You can by using the You c push here the the User Interface: So that is simple The basic mode is you got just two buttons and a jog dial With two buttons you do this like volume up volume down Marketing: Oh it is a jog dial User Interface: Or if you go to the site it is channel up channel down And if you want to make to s twentyfive you push on this You select twenty you select five Marketing: It is much longer than that that being two two five no ? Do not you think so ? May not we can go That is You are right Industrial Designer: Y you need to like press two and five and Marketing: That is it is less But it is it is nice because people anyway do not go there But So what do you think for it usefulness ? Industrial Designer: So d we need to address we want we only address two main functions here and the other functions will be on LCD So Project Manager: because I am not sure that is for that this one are b d two dir directional button Marketing: Up down or left right Project Manager: And which what is that ? User Interface: It is a jog dial for controlling the cursor on the LCD screen Project Manager: It is a kind Oh Industrial Designer: see in LCD like you will have blocks and you select which one Project Manager: Now it is looks us useful Marketing: two So size and weight Is it the the the effective size and weight that the Is it real size real weight ? Or Because it Industrial Designer: it is size al almost Marketing: Size is going to be that ? Industrial Designer: The weight will be bit lighter We will s We use titanium User Interface: without titanium alloy it is going to be light Marketing: It is going to be lighter because this seems to be very heavy f I mean for my daughter for instance Not sure if she can use it Industrial Designer: But sides the sides should be Marketing: Up to three for that because I am have not seen the weight so I must not Well so colour it seems that we have the several colours for the LCD But it is not very clear what is the colour of the sh the sh the case Industrial Designer: The case is silver titanium no ? Marketing: It is a it is going to be titanium I think it is good Project Manager: And what about the strawberries on the top ? I am not convince But maybe I am not trendy But Marketing: Yahoo Well y you know it is this fruit and vegetable year Project Manager: but they are not useful I I mean it that is Marketing: I think usefulness is m as as I rem just have to remind you that usefulness is much less important than fanciness Whether it is fancy or not now it we have to decide Project Manager: I would have m i found more fancy that the fruits are useful Marketing: If it is Uhhuh So that they will that maybe the fruit may be here instead Industrial Designer: well then it is bit difficult to use Not like this d We are just giving the fruit for more fanciness and more attraction too So maybe think we can have rubber or some sponges stuff for strawberries and different colours Marketing: So it seems we are not so clear on the shape Project Manager: No I am not sure why if it was like this Industrial Designer: But it looks really not really good Project Manager: I It is n no it is not fancy any more Industrial Designer: I mean the f So these are kind of rubber things Even if you lose one you can just put whatever Even we can provide many different colours or different fruits and Project Manager: Uhhuh And different routes I see what User Interface: Moreover moreover it covers it covers all the end goals Even if it is you know it is very rounded but still you got some rubber fruit here and it is completely completely secure to leave it with children and that Project Manager: so you you you feel like it is something a protection for the remote control Industrial Designer: we have we have sensors here and so here and here so we just so even if you do not put it works But this is really fancy Marketing: Because everybody s does not seem to be convince And the last one is adaptive This is not r maybe not as important as the other one but can we adapt it to each each personal use ? User Interface: Sure sure just look at it It is full adaptable you can fit it into your palm you know Marketing: That is So you can fit into your palm What else can we need ? You Do you think you are going to be able to do that with ti titanium as well ? Project Manager: it is fudge titanium You know Marketing: fruit titanium Well I if if this is if you are ready to do that then I think it deserves a one Project Manager: Let us go for one Marketing: Now we have to do the average Industrial Designer: Three three six eight eleven Marketing: Who is good in math ? User Interface: It is two point one seven Marketing: Two point one seven That is nice Two point one seven out of seven I think we have a good good thing Well that is all I had to say about the evaluation Project Manager: So it is a good evaluation Marketing: So It seems to be good Industrial Designer: two one one seven we have So","The marketing thought they needed to evaluate whether it made sense to do the project and whether the product could fulfil their requirement. So the group started to judge the design on a scale of one to seven, one being true and seven being false. The criteria were fanciness, technology, robustness, usefulness, size and weight, colour and shape, and adaptiveness. The product got an average score of two point one seven, which implied it was good." "Marketing: Useful Well so the question is does it have the minimum requirement of re remote control ? So I do not know These buttons are It not clear Project Manager: Oh let us me try Marketing: But you have at least next produce Project Manager: What is next please ? Industrial Designer: channel I this is volume control and channel changes These are the main Project Manager: And you can do di two sites ? Industrial Designer: and you can do on LCD using these going to scrolling all the option So if you do not want Marketing: So but for instance because the LCD is not touch control touch screen you can not go to channel twenty five directly Project Manager: You can by using the You c push here the the User Interface: So that is simple The basic mode is you got just two buttons and a jog dial With two buttons you do this like volume up volume down Marketing: Oh it is a jog dial User Interface: Or if you go to the site it is channel up channel down And if you want to make to s twentyfive you push on this You select twenty you select five Marketing: It is much longer than that that being two two five no ? Do not you think so ? May not we can go That is You are right Industrial Designer: Y you need to like press two and five and Marketing: That is it is less But it is it is nice because people anyway do not go there But So what do you think for it usefulness ? Industrial Designer: So d we need to address we want we only address two main functions here and the other functions will be on LCD So Project Manager: because I am not sure that is for that this one are b d two dir directional button Marketing: Up down or left right Project Manager: And which what is that ? User Interface: It is a jog dial for controlling the cursor on the LCD screen Project Manager: It is a kind Oh Industrial Designer: see in LCD like you will have blocks and you select which one Project Manager: Now it is looks us useful","The basic mode of the product had only two directional buttons with which people could control the volume and change channels. Except for the two main functions, other functions were on the LCD screen and there was a jog dial controlling the cursor on the LCD screen. Therefore, the controller was very easy to use." "Project Manager: And what about the strawberries on the top ? I am not convince But maybe I am not trendy But Marketing: Yahoo Well y you know it is this fruit and vegetable year Project Manager: but they are not useful I I mean it that is Marketing: I think usefulness is m as as I rem just have to remind you that usefulness is much less important than fanciness Whether it is fancy or not now it we have to decide Project Manager: I would have m i found more fancy that the fruits are useful","The project manager didn't like the strawberry-like sensors on the top because they were not useful. Even though the marketing reminded the manager that fanciness was more important than usefulness, the manager still believed that it would be fancier if the fruit-like thing was useful." "Project Manager: So now it has to fulfil the financial criterium ? So I have an Here Marketing: So so how many batteries do we need ? Industrial Designer: we use bat One battery Oh we just need one I guess Marketing: Say no No ne never install Two batteries or one ? Industrial Designer: No number is one We need only one battery Project Manager: but the price is two Oh number Marketing: No no But no no No no way Project Manager: Sorry sorry sorry I am sorry Marketing: You never use Excel ? User Interface: What what is the limit ? it is it is that I do not know because it is not my field Twelve bucks Marketing: Twelve and a half I think It is a simple chip ? Industrial Designer: And then we have the t sample speaker sensor for speech recognition Project Manager: And for the One also Marketing: One or two ? One ? So the case which one is it in the end ? Industrial Designer: I think we will go for a single curve no ? Marketing: Let us do a single curve User Interface: It is it is flat Marketing: It is flat and curved Project Manager: I thought you can curve User Interface: you Look It is curvable but it is not curved Marketing: Maybe there is a supplement for that no ? It is only curve ? Project Manager: Oh see I I think that the the price is this one Do not chip on me Marketing: So what is it ? T titanium ? Project Manager: But she wanted you the fudge titanium Marketing: Let us stick to s titan Project Manager: I think it is five but you do not say User Interface: Well n Why three ? Industrial Designer: No only one no ? Project Manager: Oh sorry Again I am See it or it is only on the but there is no colour here So I put it here Marketing: It is going to be expensive Project Manager: That is that is not We choose this one and not this one Marketing: No Oh I think no it is is it a scroll wheel and pe push button th this centre one ? Or only only scroll wheel You are trying to make make up make us up Project Manager: Because how do you do to y select ? Marketing: No but you select with the two d the other two buttons Project Manager: I mean you you go on the location with your scroll wheel Marketing: no ? That is true Industrial Designer: Then it automatically we can just do like you feel it goes And it will activate plus it is price is really Project Manager: You you have all of these no ? Marketing: She is very hard on this Project Manager: Mm maybe n not this one but Marketing: Special colour ? No Special material ? buttons are the standard buttons It is only buttons these So we are at seventeen dot eight Project Manager: Not special colours an interest in ? Marketing: No the colour is in the LCD Project Manager: And buttons are not colourised ? They are m Industrial Designer: I think because you can just go for a good colours Marketing: We can just use this red Project Manager: Boohoo It is already too expensive Apparently Marketing: So what is Are we supposed to cut things out now ? until we get twelve fifty Project Manager: So think of what we can cut here Marketing: Well if I look at what is the most expensive things it is the LCD Project Manager: Apparently we have to choose one or the other User Interface: Well as you may know there is some research done in the field of producing energy from mechanical eng I mean producing electricity from mechanical energy So the point is that when you take device and push the button you produce enough energy Project Manager: But you do not need a battery ? User Interface: to make electricity that you do not need a battery So it is something like hand dynamo robot A real hightech version of it Project Manager: it is like the hand dynamo no ? Industrial Designer: Maybe the jog wheel can be like kind of hand Marketing: So but if we select the hand dynamo it is we only Project Manager: it is a it is a beginning So One here and here User Interface: So about chips Advanced chip on print right ? So put minus one there please Marketing: I am not sure if this is legal Project Manager: M maybe minus three no ? User Interface: So was there result ? Industrial Designer: No no It is not User Interface: Let us have a look Industrial Designer: It is not changing no ? Marketing: if Click somewhere you will see features Maybe put minus two so it looks more reasonable It is not recorded is it ? Industrial Designer: So now on we can increase our Still you have two more Project Manager: Oh we can put a hand dynamo and a battery if you want Industrial Designer: Maybe we can use it for our party User Interface: And a battery and a battery Project Manager: Both its it is cool Marketing: No now we are exp exceeding I think User Interface: let us add one instead of two Marketing: I think we are exceeding now Industrial Designer: No but point five point three Marketing: We have to remove the it is better I think they are counting Project Manager: and do not have to Marketing: So remove one of them we are on target Project Manager: mmmm Mm Mm So target reached Marketing: I am just curious to see this my address chip on print Trick I would say it is the Russian trick but User Interface: Well I do not know Marketing: they may have some their origins strange origins User Interface: I do not know I am not sure who was programming this calculator you know Because I wonder if we put A or B somewhere instead of a number Industrial Designer: And we can discuss all these things in our party Marketing: Let us finish this meeting instead so finance that is done Are the cost under twelve ?","At first, the product components included a battery, a simple chip, a speech sensor, a single curve, titanium, two push buttons, a scroll wheel, and an LCD screen. These would cost seventeen dot eight dollars in total, which was apparently too expensive. After some discussions about battery and operations on the calculator, the group finally cut the cost down to under twelve dollars." "User Interface: Well as you may know there is some research done in the field of producing energy from mechanical eng I mean producing electricity from mechanical energy So the point is that when you take device and push the button you produce enough energy Project Manager: But you do not need a battery ? User Interface: to make electricity that you do not need a battery So it is something like hand dynamo robot A real hightech version of it Project Manager: it is like the hand dynamo no ? Industrial Designer: Maybe the jog wheel can be like kind of hand Marketing: So but if we select the hand dynamo it is we only Project Manager: it is a it is a beginning So One here and here",The user interface designer recommended adding a hand dynamo which could produce electricity from mechanical energy so that it could provide enough energy for the device when users took the controller and pushed the buttons. The proposal was accepted by the group. "Marketing: Right I will speak about latest trends trends latest fashion updates and things we must not do the trends It is very important that the control is fancy looking and good feeling this because of our last model was very functional but it people did not like that so our new mo model must be very goodlooking That is something you have to take a look at And the feeling has to be very great Also the menus and things like that they have to they have to feel great there is a minus two times here because this is the most important point This is two times as less important and same for this one technological technological innovations that is regarded very highly too such as an LCD screen speech acknowledgement as we talked about earlier So we have to have something like that like we Project Manager: LCD and our our fronts Marketing: Right the last point is easy to use Well I think that speaks for s for itself I do not know who is who is going to look at that Project Manager: Well easy to use s is a bit contradictionary with the first Industrial Designer: I think that is your ta Project Manager: Functional is not an issue and then easy to use Well we have to choose one of them Marketing: I think we have to go for the first one It is the most important one So we have to take that one So it it it is not very important that that it works easy User Interface: Well something fancy looking can be can be easy to use Marketing: But it has to look great Project Manager: We will we will look at Industrial Designer: you can make a very complicated remote anyway so ease of use It is not a very comp complicated device Marketing: right But the most important thing is that it looks great and people say wow that is real great great concept Alright these are the new colours of this year So it must be very bright very colourful So we we have to think in this direction So i set your mind to it Findings ? Fashion update ? Fruit and vegetables are cool The group we are targeting is very pleased with fruit and vegetables So we we we might cons consider in front of in in that sort of way furthermore material that is your part should be very strong I was thinking of something like well iron plate over it maybe in a colour or something that looks so f really flashy but it it is also strong And that is also for the younger public Project Manager: Well the the handy thing about our fronts is that we can follow these trends e ev every year Th this year it is fruits but next year it is it is something totally different Marketing: But I think we can all make the the fronts of titanium or something really thin So it looks very heavy but you can still use it very easily Well the donts Older people like dark colours and simple shapes Well we do not want older people So we are going to turn that around We are going to have real cool shapes and lots of colours Right ? We do not want wood Old people So that is it for me Project Manager: Alright Nice well show us","Marketing talks about the adoption of some latest trends and latest fashion updates on the remote control. She thought it important that the control looks fancy for targeted young users, like having the LCD screen, vivid colors, and cool shape, and the last model of the company is comparatively functional." "Industrial Designer: Right I am going to tell you something about the components design again I have put up the specification properties This so the different components of the of of the device And the materials ? I have heard several things so I I will have to change that on the way But the case ? I suggested in the previous meeting hard plastic But as you indicated it should be strong It should feel strong So maybe plastic is not sufficient Project Manager: Well maybe it it it is Industrial Designer: We should move to something Project Manager: but it does not look strong So maybe Industrial Designer: Well Y Hard plastic i is of course pretty pretty tough but it does not have a really really tough look So Project Manager: But we still have to look at our price of course Because if we want an LCD window etcetera Industrial Designer: Also Mmhmm But we will return to that the buttons of course rubber I think everyone agrees And electrical cables copper is all pretty basic stuff The chips made of silicon I guess I think that is the best way to do it And infra infrared l LED is just a simple bulb Then I have had a few findings made a few findings the target audience product style it is generally the case that senior and wealthy people above forty five years old like as you said particularly the traditional materials as such as wood and materials such as that They also like straightforward shapes and luxurious style But of course that is not our things this So this is things we must not do And then we have young and dynamic people which is of course our group the people we aim at under forty five years old they like soft materials with primary colours Soft materials is of course agai again a bit a contradiction with our material choice of what you said that it should be hard an and and and and strong looking But they like soft materials so we might we have to consider that And also they like curved round shapes So not too formal like like the older people want And if also a finding but not very ap applicable here that sports and gaming devices such as discmans for jogging and that those kind of devices gaming devices should define the characteristics of the device But since we do not have a really a sports or gaming device so we do not really have to consider that Project Manager: Sports they are that are accessible on on your LCD window Industrial Designer: Well I also have several examples of styles Marketing: We keep coming back to the fronts Industrial Designer: so you can get a clear picture of what I mean these are the basic older older peoples stuff It was not very interesting very classical looking but that is n that is not what we want We have these kind of things I do not know what exactly they are It looks like Well you know you recognise the shapes it is very primary colours bright colours and round shapes You also see this device it is not very round and Fruity of course it And well round shapes primary colours You can see it all here And of course this famous device I think as you know something some devices like this So to give you an idea of Marketing: Well it is got a strong look this Industrial Designer: This has a strong look Although it is plastic it is it is grey to to to give it iron look Marketing: it still has a strong look But then you are losing your fruity colours Industrial Designer: Well we have to make a Project Manager: Well you can make th th th that middle ring can you you can make another colour So those kind of things you can you can combine Industrial Designer: Well we can not really make a round a round remote control I do not think that is very practical but But it is important to to to think about the colour Because if we make it grey or or silvery looking it it does make it a lot more does make it looking a lot more stronger Because if you look at this it it does not look very very strong becau But this is plastic and and this too but Marketing: But it does not have to look strong The the results are the feel of the material is expected to be strongy User Interface: And it it does not have to be strong also Project Manager: You you Maybe you should have some some coloured titanium or something So it it looks pretty but it feels strong Industrial Designer: And I Then I have some more findings about the energy energy source of the of the device I suggest the basic battery I got some other energy sources of course But solar energy is not very practical inside a house because you do not have a have a lot of sun And kinetic and and and dynamos are are not very practical I think for for a simple remote that is a bit oh that is a bit That is a bit much And I also suggest as a shape a double curved case the disadvantage of that that you can use no titanium That that is the information I received If you use the curved case a curved case double curved then you can not use titanium Project Manager: What do you exactly mean with double curved ? Industrial Designer: Now this to give it a more modern look And now the the shape a curved case I think sort of triangleshaped bottom or something a more modern look not plain long box style but And it makes it gives it a more you user friendly shape than if you have anyway f as for the buttons simple push buttons No otherwi no difficult scroll things or some things like that because it makes more complex and expensive And as we agreed we do not use a speaker or a sensor or speak speech controlled device Because it makes it also more complex and expensive But we do use an LCD screen so we we do have to consider of we have to use a more advanced chip which is more complex and expensive But It is worth the trouble I think User Interface: The buttons can be made of an a soft material Project Manager: This soft material thing from Industrial Designer: rubber is a soft material I guess So that is basically what I want to talk about Project Manager: Alright We will take that And then Mike ?","He talks about something on the components design after having put up the specification properties. As for materials, he used to suggest using hard plastic in order to make the control hard and solid, but at this conference, he thinks that their target audience, young people, love soft colors and materials, like rubber. And he also suggests a shape of a double curved case. As for the buttons, he suggests simple push buttons, without difficult scroll things that makes the control more complex and expensive. And he suggests not using a speaker or a sensor or speech controlled device." "User Interface: Well nah the method we will include the buttons as we discussed earlier an LCD s screen will be implemented we must decide where this meeting there are new developments in speech recognition systems and they are already being used on coffee machines And well they are cheap so we could use them now it is not really speech recognition it is more like you can talk to the chip record the message and record an answer and then once you talk to the remote then he will a answer with the the prerecorded message that you left So if I say hi Mike and you have recorded hi Mike back then you will get that Project Manager: But you can also say that when you say something it does some function User Interface: No it does not does not do anything Project Manager: Oh That is a bit User Interface: But i it is just a Marketing: But that that makes it cheap User Interface: it is it is cheap Marketing: It is it is just a an extra function Project Manager: But it has no functionality for our remote at all User Interface: but that is the gadget they want or the gimmicks Industrial Designer: But it it is n nice for young people User Interface: Yes we we should really include that one I think Well as I said earlier I think the LCD screen should be positioned at the lower end of the remote the buttons for screen width and general settings and and that kind of stuff we can also do let that kind of functions be shown in the LCD screen instead of extra buttons Project Manager: So you put a menu in the LCD ? User Interface: I think young people and w well every user would like that the buttons should be positioned positioned the same way as they are on a well conventional remote I think For the learnability and well to keep it recognisable A voice recognition can be implemented And I drew an example but it did not work quite the well the way I wanted it to do Industrial Designer: Can you draw it now of User Interface: ? Well I have the I can draw it again Industrial Designer: Can you draw it now ? User Interface: and I know what I did wrong I did not tick the note bo box in the Marketing: How do you give input to the menu on the LCD screen ? User Interface: with the the up and down and and well buttons and the Marketing: Alright So you have a menu button and then you can go up and down Project Manager: But then we should also have an an button User Interface: Well I will draw what I had drawn on the screen Yes I shall draw this If it works Project Manager: Just There is already a blank Yes ? So Marketing: You have to push hard Industrial Designer: I suggest a banana shape Because of the fruity fashion Project Manager: No m Next year that is out User Interface: Well these little buttons are a bit difficult to draw correct Industrial Designer: Those are the the cha the channel buttons of course ? And then below is the LCD screen ? User Interface: These these will be bigger in the the real design This must be the button used to interact with the LCD screen And with this you can yes go to through the menus and that can the video button should be an apart button because you want it to t to use it fast within one click Project Manager: And what is the menu button ? Marketing: And you you need a you need a speaker User Interface: This button can also be the Menu button we use in the menus Project Manager: But how did How do you get out of the menu then ? User Interface: Well we we can add another button here but Project Manager: Maybe I you could j just do an an exit with Industrial Designer: by pe pressing the menu button again By pressing the menu button again you go out It is usual the the the d kind of the way it works Project Manager: Yes well but bec because when you push Menu you get in and then you have to push when you get to a choice User Interface: Ah right Well you you Industrial Designer: But you can men you can press menu again to get out Project Manager: Well that is also the button That is you you should have User Interface: No no we we we should add a extra Menu button Project Manager: Or you can put in the LCDs window an option Get Out User Interface: Ah once you have an extra Menu button you do not need that that extra option Project Manager: Well it is just a choice Marketing: But we need a we need a a recording recording button for the speech part User Interface: if we decide to to implement that maybe we should Industrial Designer: Why would you put it then and where is the recording the microphone ? User Interface: Well they that could be anywhere Industrial Designer: Where would you put it ? User Interface: That is very small It could be down here Well not here I I suggest here But that is just a little Marketing: Right and spea speaker at the back or something User Interface: Well the speaker and the microphone I think are the same little hole thingy Industrial Designer: but we could d do but it is perhaps more expensive the speaker on the back or something User Interface: Well i there are a all already being implemented in in coffee machines so they will not be very expensive But This is my suggested design","User Interface talked about the method of including the buttons and the implementation of LCD screens. And he mentioned there are new developments in speech recognition systems as they are already being used on uh coffee machines; and since they're cheap, so he thinks they could use them now, as a small gimmick. As for mic and speaker, User Interface thinks that they are the same little hole things." "Project Manager: Well alright then let us have a look at the decisions we are going to have to make User Interface: Yes And oh I think as you can see so the LCD screen does look better at the lower end or at the bottom Oh I had some examples Industrial Designer: I can live with it User Interface: You can But I did not like it very much but Well these are quite obvious very ugly remote Industrial Designer: They do they do not look fruity enough Marketing: Nei They are n they are not trendy Project Manager: Hey that one I like User Interface: this is for children but th Marketing: It does not look strong Industrial Designer: But it does not the User Interface: W but with the colours i it is a bit the way we are going to Well this is a terrible Industrial Designer: But it it must not look too childish of course huh ? Project Manager: It is it is all too much buttons Too many buttons That is User Interface: This these are the LCD screens I think we should if it is possible one with colours but Marketing: Nah th It is too expensive Project Manager: Well that is too expensive I think Marketing: But are we going for a strange form ? Industrial Designer: Not not too strange No Marketing: You can make the the underside you can make it more round where the LCD is Project Manager: Yes Th a a kind of bridge So it f falls over the hand Marketing: I do not know if you know the No Nokia telephone with the round thing at at the bottoms s something like that Project Manager: Well I have at home a remote with a bridge It is just a half round half half circle at And then it falls exactly over the hand and that is very nice That is It feels comfortable Marketing: but people like something new you know Industrial Designer: I will design it we design it later So we will get to that later I guess Project Manager: alright where did I put it ? conceptual phase I think this is it I got this from our friends These are a few examples which we have to decide about All the the materials from the case the electric cable that is all your your side of the story now from the user interface your package ? where No well that is more like the buttons where they have to come And B a bit of well a bit of design User Interface: this is what we have just done Right ? Project Manager: Yes but we have to decide about these now Industrial Designer: But we should decide now Marketing: Materials are the most most impor Project Manager: So as you said fruity is in well sells good Industrial Designer: So we have to put it in one document Project Manager: yes so if we go through them Industrial Designer: Copy paste this story into a into a Word document and then put the answers after the subjects Well we have to decide all these things ? User Interface: but all these examples are of a coffee machine Industrial Designer: W we can override them ? Well a case ? that is me I suggest Well what do I suggest actually ? Project Manager: What what kind of properties should it have ? Well we just listened User Interface: Why do not we use titanium or or a hard some kind of metal for the the the whole remote except the front Marketing: Do you know the new User Interface: That Just like most cell phones are Marketing: The front is the most important Industrial Designer: but the nonremovable elements of the of the remote so not the front could be titanium to give that strong look And then the front is made of plastic And you can put that on and off and switch it Marketing: But the feel of plastic is not strong Industrial Designer: No but you have titanium of course User Interface: No but you you have this Industrial Designer: you have the best of both worlds User Interface: you have the re remote in your hand like this So you feel titanium Industrial Designer: And of course you have the the the plastic front end But you also have the titanium Marketing: Fronts are are cheaper than when they are from plas Industrial Designer: of course but you have to make a decision User Interface: And I do not know if you can make steel just any way you want it to Marketing: but it it is expensive Industrial Designer: titanium I sh I think Huh ? Well well the According to my sources it is it is totally possible to make an entire Titanium is available and we can make an entire remote out of it if we want User Interface: then you you paint it in the colour you want it The plastic is is the colour you want it Marketing: So we are going for a titanium back and a plastic front ? Industrial Designer: I think that is a nice tradeoff Project Manager: well I am going to put it in here because we can look I solid feel and trendy look So material hard plastic for the front ? Industrial Designer: for the front and then titanium for the back Marketing: But then you have the problem when you have a titanium back you can not switch it When you want an other colour on the front it does not match Industrial Designer: The titan titanium is not is not v very i it does not curves No I nei Titanium is very No no no but you know b Titanium is very basic colour and it does not really matter if we have a purple front on it or a orange front I do not know if if you disagree but I think it is does not matter very much User Interface: Our customers will use those funky trendy colours and they do not use wood Industrial Designer: And even if it does does not match it will People like mm colours that do not match Project Manager: the the electrical cable is just normal It is from our coffee Industrial Designer: copper i just a ba basic User Interface: No we do not use an electrical cable inside but this is for the coffee machine Industrial Designer: well inside the remote control we use a couple of User Interface: but that is not what is meant here I think Industrial Designer: Well A coffee grind does not have Na ja Never mind the coffee grind Project Manager: all the all the inside work of our remote is standard work So The chip is normal silicon the buttons are normal etcetera ? So that is just easy we decide about that just by looking at our competitors and our earlier remotes The conceptual specification of the user interface ? well we have our beautiful drawing User Interface: Well I got a better one here Project Manager: Well you can put that in into the shared folder and then I will put it in our end report User Interface: I will work this out for the next meeting Project Manager: Yes you can Mm You can put some which button is what the trendwatching included these days And what do we ? We thing that fruit and bright colours are Industrial Designer: the the the front w Marketing: I think we can launch a couple of packages You can buy a different kind of of of machine but it is the same thing but with another front Project Manager: We can also implement we can also implement fronts from movies that are very hot User Interface: that is the whole idea of the front Marketing: And you can you can User Interface: But that is for later on The fronts y you can do anything with them Marketing: but if you if you launch five different packages like iPod mini User Interface: right For the initiative launch Industrial Designer: For the for the launch Project Manager: Launch different lines at once Industrial Designer: So e th then a c couple of basic colours Not not very sim Not Marketing: n not too heavy You can always take another pick Project Manager: We should not give them the m the most lovely front when they buy it for the first time Marketing: They have to buy it later on Project Manager: We still have to make those fifty million ? User Interface: Well you can you can give them s s three or so Industrial Designer: The most boring fronts possible User Interface: so that they can experiment with it and that they want more Industrial Designer: but you you can have some basic colours and then we come with the special patterns on them User Interface: Red red blue and green you give them or something and then you can give them other ones Project Manager: Alright well the buttons etcetera we get from Mike this fruit and bright colours well I think we will have to in the next half an hour we will have to s s specify the different types we want to launch when we well introduce our remote Industrial Designer: we still have to make We have still have to make the es the the real basic design Because we have the sketch but Marketing: But we we must remember that fancy lookandfeel is the most important thing Else it w will not sell Project Manager: Well I will have to before I get another warning for five minutes I am going to get Where is my mouse ? where is my mouse ? basic stuff Interface we have Supplements LCD Maybe a a cheap voice recording Well Industrial Designer: We all agree on that Project Manager: Industry designer User Interface Mike You are going to work together on a prototype drawing on the SMARTboard That is what I got to hear Industrial Designer: How but how do I User Interface: But bu we stay we stay here or something ? Project Manager: Yes well we will get it to hear that I think But I think so Th they are saying SMARTboard and that is it Marketing: You can take the SMARTboard Project Manager: This is the SMARTboard so User Interface: Ah right And take it to our rooms and Project Manager: so you can you you are going to make a prototype and y Well that is includes specifying the buttons etcetera User Interface: Ah specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach Project Manager: So you will get it on your them on your laptop well you will go and do something else on the project Industrial Designer: Some Some non functional tasks Project Manager: what are you going to do ? I do not know what product evaluation exactly means but you will get the specifications Marketing: We do not have produ product yet Project Manager: That is why I But How long do we still have ? Industrial Designer: Well can we talk about something else ? no I do not know anything but maybe anyone else","As for the LCD screen, the Project Manager considers colored ones are a bit too expensive, so they can just do normal ones, and the shape of the control can be in a bridge shape. As for the materials, Industrial Designers think that a solid and strong appearance is necessary, and Marketing agrees that plastics don't create a strong touching feeling, and as a combination, they decide to have hard plastic for the front and then titanium for the back. As for colors, the group decides to use basic colors with some special patterns." "Project Manager: Oh we can decide how we implement the feeling from our company into the remote Industrial Designer: Well I think a logo our company logo and the slogan should be or could be Project Manager: Also the slogan ? On the Industrial Designer: why not ? If there is enough space you can put User Interface: I I would say only the logo Too much text and it gets too too busy Industrial Designer: Well our slogan is not very long It is just a simple Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics User Interface: Well it is quite a long phrase Project Manager: We put the fashion in electronics Marketing: But we kree we keep adjusting to the fashion with our fronts So Industrial Designer: You c But you can put it on the back on the titanium part The logo and the and the User Interface: Ah the logo should be on the top I think Project Manager: On the top Well in in in the right top corner ? And well you c On the back you can put h At the bottom you can put the logo with the Industrial Designer: Right corner or maybe here in the middle ? Marketing: But the logo the logo should not be exchangeable when you get off the front User Interface: Well you c Well Yes Industrial Designer: it it should be hard on the on the on the board and you can remove the front User Interface: The logo can be on on every front but then you must really push it in or something Project Manager: Carved into the material No you you can carve it into the titanium at the back Industrial Designer: I l I like the idea of the of the slogan on the on the on the thing But am I the only one or Project Manager: Well management would like it User Interface: Well n n not not on the front side I think Project Manager: The front side no no l no slogan Industrial Designer: No not on the front User Interface: On the back Yes you you can push that in so that it is always be there Industrial Designer: I think it is a nice idea to make it more recognisable that the next to the logo you have the slogan To make more of an impression very small Not on the entire back but just very small Marketing: You have to make this titanium too Industrial Designer: But readable enough of course Project Manager: Yes slogan from company on the back with logo Industrial Designer: But we will we will take that with us into the design User Interface: I think over here the logo Industrial Designer: Lo Or maybe here in the middle but we will decide later Project Manager: and logo also on the front but not exchange ? ? when changing fronts","They decide that they shall implement the feeling from our company into the remote so they have to implement a logo, a slogan or a sign. Industrial Designer thinks that to make it more recognisable, next to the logo they should have the slogan. And the project manager decided that the slogan from the company should be put on the back with a logo, and the logo also is also on the front when changing fronts." "Industrial Designer: Do you do you see a bit of the of the of the titanium ? O on the front ? maybe if we make this this this lower part titanium the front is the the upper part and the the bit with the with the LCD screen So Project Manager: So a bit of titanium between ? That is a bit Oh that that is that is pretty cool Industrial Designer: of between we can do but But then you have two parts of front two fronts that User Interface: No they have two fronts Industrial Designer: This enti entire bottom ? Marketing: Else you you get problems with the LCD Like dust in it and so things like that When you exchange all the fronts and it is open Project Manager: I already have all kinds of filth between the mobile User Interface: No you can you can just And then not a straight line but some sort of wave or something Marketing: you can make it go round this corner too where the logo is Because it has to be there all the time you know Industrial Designer: And then the lower part is titanium ? User Interface: This is titanium And this is Industrial Designer: I think that is nice Marketing: Some some kind of wei weight in it Industrial Designer: I like that bit of titanium also on the User Interface: With the with the curved edge Industrial Designer: A bit like a bit like your mobile phone Maybe you can show it It also has the those two distinct Marketing: So a little corner of titanium We can not take a blank one User Interface: that is nice finishing touch you need Project Manager: Yes that also sounds pretty neat Marketing: So this this is the exchangeable part Industrial Designer: I think I am going to buy it Project Manager: And it is only f twenty five Euros Industrial Designer: That is a bit too much but No no no no but I think this looks pretty nice actually Project Manager: The Phillips remote costs more Industrial Designer: Of course because it is my design but No our d our design alright Project Manager: Well you two are going to work together You will get your specifications on your laptop and then you User Interface: We will stay here I guess ? Marketing: But there is a problem Project Manager: Well I think we can I just It is User Interface: Well we can erase an animal I guess the fourth one Marketing: Nah that is alright that is alright Industrial Designer: But do not erase my cat User Interface: the fourth one is empty is not it ? Industrial Designer: I want to preserve it Marketing: You have to empty one huh ? Project Manager: Oh we have a one Industrial Designer: What are you doing chief ? Project Manager: So you can draw a User Interface: I think we have to wait ? Project Manager: Well I will get a I will get the message Industrial Designer: until the until the beep goes But I do not Do we have to stay here or I think we have to return first Project Manager: Well you will Maybe you can keep your laptop here Or get your mouse Because it is little bit hard to work with these plates Industrial Designer: The high powers from above will have to tell us","Marketing thinks that if they don't have a bit of titanium between the two fronts, users may get problems with the LCD screen, like some dust in it — because people have always all kinds of filth between the mobile, when people exchange all the fronts, the control is open. And the group decides to have a bit of titanium in between, and with the curved edge." "Project Manager: Next Let us talk about money User Interface: Just tr try to guess who is a User Interface Designer Marketing: So Twenty five Euro for a remote control Project Manager: mm that is the price we want to that is the aim for the price for the remote control We aim to do this profit Industrial Designer: we are to sell two million then Project Manager: Mm for a production cost of mm twelve fifty Euros maximum Kay So any of you have experience in remote controls ? Marketing: yes we have plenty at home In fact my daughter likes l remote controls To eat ? mainly and to break Project Manager: So that could be a great application Remote controls children proof Mm mmhmm Marketing: So she likes buttons which make click so it has to click Project Manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ? Marketing: It has to be wha baby proof Project Manager: Because they eat she ate it Marketing: but mainly it has to be very robust because even if she is not very tall she is high enough so that when she throw it away it is So it has to be very robust Industrial Designer: we have some child lock or something Marketing: And it has to be nice looking User Interface: Colourful ? That is not practical Marketing: colourful because nobody has colourful remote control Project Manager: No that is a good idea Industrial Designer: it is always black or Marketing: but this one could be I do not know purple or b User Interface: But how going to just but it is monochrome it is n it is not like Project Manager: because you think why not User Interface: Otherwise you will never find it Industrial Designer: even we can change colours no ? Like the like the phones and these things we c At least for children like one colour and And it should be really small and Project Manager: Small also ? Do not you think Industrial Designer: Huh not so big like Project Manager: No not too much buttons or mm Industrial Designer: not too much buttons and Marketing: Should it be y you know these remote controls where they are what they call a universal ret remote control so y you can decide that now it is the remote control for the television then it is the remote control for the the sound system or for your refrigerator I do not know if it is Or if we should have a targeted re remote control So colour robustness easy to use size Project Manager: So I think there is So you you think it is better if small than bigger Industrial Designer: maybe at least n not bigger than this I guess User Interface: but without any extremes like n not of this size not too large Industrial Designer: at least it should hold in your hand n properly like Marketing: But what would be different from this from the others ? I do not know if Industrial Designer: maybe we can change the colours that at least the frame Mm S so then it depends Marketing: at least the colour would be different Industrial Designer: Mm I mean you c you can easily remove the frame Marketing: I think one thing important for instance in this remote control if you remember when people use it they are they never find a good button in the right place For some reason they they they click the off button when they want to use the So there is a problem in the design of that kind of remote control somehow Project Manager: Mm So some kind of idea with cellular phone with a a screen that will tell you what User Interface: no screens it is too complex Marketing: Too expensive for twelve Euro ? User Interface: And n maybe not too expensive well it is not my problem but well But no screens on remote controls Marketing: Mmhmm I thought it could be only a screen which would change depending on the use or even the user So ma I prefer to have the off button at the top right so I would have my own design of the remote control because it is in fact just a a full touch screen remote control if you if you like Industrial Designer: I mean it it is like Marketing: I do not know if it makes sense but Industrial Designer: it is like two types no ? people are right handed or left handed so y because I am left handed I use like this say if you are right handed you use like this or so tha your switch on and off should be on Marketing: Maybe if if it is possible User Interface: so how many actions do we need to implement in it ? Industrial Designer: Maybe I think even we can keep two switches and then we can only make one working We can adapt only one switch suppose here like we can make two switches and if I am lefthander I use this switch to follow the main operations User Interface: I mean if it is less than three then we can make it like a Marketing: Three buttons you mean ? User Interface: you know what I mean we can just make it controlled by a brain huh ? Project Manager: Maybe if it is more if there is a software inside If it if we want a r universal remote control that we sa like we say before it may may need more than three mm three button three mm possibilities ye Marketing: more than three actions that you may want to do at a given time User Interface: But for standard actions you usually what do you do you change channels you adjust volume and nothing else Marketing: but for instance when you change channels you can have you can just go to the next one or go to channel twenty five And that is already more complex to go to channel twenty five User Interface: I usually just change channels Marketing: Because I am only using three or four channels but Industrial Designer: But they keep generally their t slash slash this thing and then the dash dash and then you can put you can only have one bit Project Manager: I change channel like this m I want to go to twenty five and then to ten uhhuh mm Marketing: And then back to the one I was before Project Manager: Also we can be here Marketing: so there is whichever it was User Interface: Go back button is good Marketing: we had that in in other countries e even the history so you could like undo previous of the previous Then you can watch what your ah you could also record your record your sequence of actions but you could look at what the other people have used there or remote controls Industrial Designer: what the which channels the viewer Project Manager: So I think we have full of idea we are going to meet again in thirty minutes and I want you to mm work on these ideas and try to make a the ones make to decide what what are the ones important and what are the one that we do not want And m maybe more in the technical parts what do we want to do So your personal coach will send you some instruction for for this thirty minutes Marketing: So what does ME means ? ME the user requirements ? Or that is that is for us ? Oh of course the user requirement specifications uhhuh","The group hoped that it can be applied to children, in particular to ensure their safety during use. Besides, it should be colourful and beautiful to attract the attention of children. The price also should be reasonable and affordable, not too expensive, but the profit can be guaranteed. In terms of function design, unnecessary functions and switches should be removed to enhance their applicability." "Project Manager: If it if we want a r universal remote control that we sa like we say before it may may need more than three mm three button three mm possibilities ye Marketing: more than three actions that you may want to do at a given time User Interface: But for standard actions you usually what do you do you change channels you adjust volume and nothing else Marketing: but for instance when you change channels you can have you can just go to the next one or go to channel twenty five And that is already more complex to go to channel twenty five User Interface: I usually just change channels Marketing: Because I am only using three or four channels but Industrial Designer: But they keep generally their t slash slash this thing and then the dash dash and then you can put you can only have one bit Project Manager: I change channel like this m I want to go to twenty five and then to ten uhhuh mm Marketing: And then back to the one I was before","It may require more than three millimetres with three buttons, and since there are not as many buttons, each button should be fully functional so that the basic requirements of the user can be met and the operation can be simple, or at least not too complicated, while they enjoy the function." "Marketing: For some reason they they they click the off button when they want to use the So there is a problem in the design of that kind of remote control somehow Project Manager: Mm So some kind of idea with cellular phone with a a screen that will tell you what User Interface: no screens it is too complex","The point of this discussion is that the group should optimize buttons and switch designs, adjust the number and size of buttons and their functions, filter out unnecessary functions, reduce the number of buttons and replace them with screens to enhance the applicability of remote controls, just like mobile phones." "Project Manager: Remote controls children proof Mm mmhmm Marketing: So she likes buttons which make click so it has to click Project Manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ? Marketing: It has to be wha baby proof Project Manager: Because they eat she ate it Marketing: but mainly it has to be very robust because even if she is not very tall she is high enough so that when she throw it away it is So it has to be very robust Industrial Designer: we have some child lock or something Marketing: And it has to be nice looking User Interface: Colourful ? That is not practical Marketing: colourful because nobody has colourful remote control Project Manager: No that is a good idea Industrial Designer: it is always black or Marketing: but this one could be I do not know purple or b User Interface: But how going to just but it is monochrome it is n it is not like Project Manager: because you think why not User Interface: Otherwise you will never find it Industrial Designer: even we can change colours no ? Like the like the phones and these things we c At least for children like one colour and And it should be really small and Project Manager: Small also ? Do not you think Industrial Designer: Huh not so big like","The group thought remote controls should keep children safe while using them. At the same time, the remote control should be brightly coloured. Even if it is not colourful, it should also choose a monochrome colour that children like to attract them." "Marketing: In fact my daughter likes l remote controls To eat ? mainly and to break Project Manager: So that could be a great application Remote controls children proof Mm mmhmm Marketing: So she likes buttons which make click so it has to click Project Manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ? Marketing: It has to be wha baby proof Project Manager: Because they eat she ate it Marketing: but mainly it has to be very robust because even if she is not very tall she is high enough so that when she throw it away it is So it has to be very robust Industrial Designer: we have some child lock or something","The team ultimately decided that the remote control should be designed to be waterproof, and it should be too powerful for a baby to eat. In addition, its function should also allow children to use their own voice control, in case the child is not tall enough to use. And it would be better to be able to have a child lock." "Marketing: And it has to be nice looking User Interface: Colourful ? That is not practical Marketing: colourful because nobody has colourful remote control Project Manager: No that is a good idea Industrial Designer: it is always black or Marketing: but this one could be I do not know purple or b User Interface: But how going to just but it is monochrome it is n it is not like Project Manager: because you think why not User Interface: Otherwise you will never find it Industrial Designer: even we can change colours no ? Like the like the phones and these things we c At least for children like one colour and","He suggested that the remote control must look good and be brightly coloured. Although not colourful, they could choose a variety of monochrome to meet the aesthetic needs of children, thus improving the suitability of the remote control for children." ,"They wanted it to be original, trendy, user-friendly, durable, creative and characteristic, so it can be very intuitive that people could use the product. In addition, the price, cost and expected profit of the remote control were also determined. In the part of creativity, they pointed out that creativity should have its own characteristics and ensure its fashion without affecting its functionality, so as to truly ""introduce fashion into electronics"". In terms of function, it is necessary to simplify the switch and guarantee function." "Project Manager: there we go so this is the overall budget for our project We have got we are planning to sell these remote controls for let us make that go away that means we have got five minutes we are planning to sell the remote controls for twenty five Euros each and with that we are aiming for a profit of fifty million Euros And that is selling them on the international market not just in the UK so to do that our finance people estimate that we need production costs of maximum twelve and a half Euro so that we can reach that profit target So that is something to keep in mind while you are designing This is let me just skip ahead to see that is the last thing We have only got a couple of minutes Does anyone have any first ideas to bounce around about what we are thinking of this remote control ? User Interface: Yep I am just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones Project Manager: Mmhmm I think that is probably something that w it is best if we take away with us but if we all have a think when we go away from the meeting what specific things could be included in this remote control that that are out of the ordinary",Project Manager wanted to make a profit of 50 million euros for a cost of 12.50 euros for 25 euros worldwide. "User Interface: Yep I am just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones Project Manager: Mmhmm I think that is probably something that w it is best if we take away with us but if we all have a think when we go away from the meeting what specific things could be included in this remote control that that are out of the ordinary Industrial Designer: I think i in the beginning one thing was that was mentioned was that it should be mm trendy user friendly and original so I think your point is relevant as far as the originality is concerned that we should provide some features that are quite unique to this Marketing: I was looking at the website and the other things that they have made and I like put down some like inspirational words like that I got from looking at the pictures So the motto is we put the fashion in electronics and so it is something that is sleek and stylish but it is still functional you know ?","Industrial Designers believed that in the design of remote control, fashion should have individuality and combine with function to achieve a perfect fit between fashion and electronics. Beyond that, it should be original in order to be unique." "Marketing: So I am kind of thinking you know like those phones that they have the new generation ones where they do not actually have any buttons on them and stuff like that You know so something heading towards that so it is not overly I mean I do not know what h most of the buttons do on my remote controls so I figure how many do you need you know ? Project Manager: So perhaps some sort of menubased thing or Marketing: Something that is a little less crowded than this like I mean you know theoretically you can do all kinds of things with your TV right ? But what do most people do ? They turn it on they watch certain specified channels you know and then they turn it off again Industrial Designer: There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time Marketing: Sometimes they play a movie Industrial Designer: but will be used ten percent of the time Marketing: there is no need to have buttons on it to do that Project Manager: It could be one button for a menu or something if you really need to go and do that","The group felt that the remote control didn't need a lot of buttons,and on the basis of ensuring originality, it should also ensure conventionality and make it applicable to all kinds of groups." "Industrial Designer: There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time Marketing: Sometimes they play a movie Industrial Designer: but will be used ten percent of the time Marketing: there is no need to have buttons on it to do that Project Manager: It could be one button for a menu or something if you really need to go and do that Marketing: So if you are the kind of sad case that knows how your remote control works then you know that is fine and you can do it on the screen rather than everybody else having to have those buttons which just confuse them","The Marketing thought buttons can be omitted, just like cell phones, because many of the functions of buttons, such as the TV button, are generally not used. But they can set up a menu-style button if they really need to." "Project Manager: Great Any other immediate thoughts before we move along ? Industrial Designer: Mm we can aim for I mean we can think about all these little things but we can aim for something wi that gives a high battery life although I do not think that it is a huge problem for remote controls anyway battery life every now and then you need to replace the batteries User Interface: but I mean e even though it has to be re original we should not go like too far away from from the usual ones because otherwise the new users will just have a lot of problems Industrial Designer: So i it should kind of fit in as well and the stereotype of a Project Manager: It is like those fancy websites that you can not access","They felt that the battery design should be long-lived, original, and conventional to ensure the battery's innovation, versatility, and durability. It should also not be far from the usual performance, or it may cause problems for new users." "PhD C: Well I I sent out an email s couple hours ago so with Andreas help Andreas put together a sort of no frills recognizer which is gender dependent but like no adaptation no cross word models no trigrams a bigram recognizer and that s trained on Switchboard which is telephone conversations and thanks to Don s help wh who Don took the first meeting that Jane had transcribed and you know separated used the individual channels we segmented it in into the segments that Jane had used and Don sampled that so so eight K and then we ran up to I guess the first twenty minutes up to synch time of one two zero zero so is that that s twenty minutes or so ? because I guess there s some and Don can talk to Jane about this there s some bug in the actual synch time file that ah I m we are not sure where it came from but stuff after that was a little messier Anyway so it s twenty minutes and I actually Grad E: I was that did that did that recording have the glitch in the middle ? Postdoc G: I m puzzled by that I oh oh I see PhD C: There s there s a Postdoc G: Oh there was a glitch somewhere Grad F: Was it twenty minutes in PhD C: if it was twenty minutes in then I do not know PhD A: suddenly the the overall error rate when we first ran it was like eighty percent Grad E: I do not remember when it is Postdoc G: but I was able to can transcribe PhD A: but i looking at the first sentences looked much better than that and then suddenly it turned very bad and then we noticed that the reference was always one off with the it was actually recognized Grad F: that might be that might be that might be my fault Grad E: Oh so that was just a parsing mismatch PhD C: No actually it was i it was a complicated bug because they were sometimes one off and then sometimes totally random so Grad F: I was pretty certain that it worked up until that time Postdoc G: Oh That s not good PhD C: so that s what we have but that that will be completely gone if this synch time problem PhD A: So so we have everything recognized but we scored only the first whatever up to that time to Professor B: S sorry I have not seen the email what was the score ? PhD C: So here s the actual copy of the email Postdoc G: we should say something about the glitch He he can say something about the glitch Cuz it s it s it s h it s it s very small PhD C: so does this glitch occur at other Grad E: There there there s an acoustic glitch that occurs where the channels get slightly asynchronized so the that that problem has gone away in the original driver believe it or not when the SSH key gen ran the driver paused for a fraction of a second and so the channels get a little asynchronous and so if you listen to it in the middle there s a little part where it starts doing doing click sounds PhD C: And is it only once that that happens ? Grad E: it right once in the middle PhD C: There s the previous page has some more information about sort of what was wrong Professor B: so so un unsurprisingly Adam is the golden voice Grad E: But that should not affect anything PhD C: OK so that s actually Professor B: you see this here ? PhD C: What happens is it actually affects the script that Don I mean if we know about it then I guess it could always be checked for it Grad E: Well the acoustic one should not do anything Grad F: I do not know exactly what affected it but I will I will talk to you about it Grad E: But I I do remember Grad F: I will show you the point Postdoc G: It it had no effect on my transcription you know I mean I I had no trouble hearing it and and having time bins Grad E: I do remember seeing once the transcriber produce an incorrect XML file where one of the synch numbers was incorrect Postdoc G: but there was a Oh PhD C: Well the the synch time the synch numbers have more significant digits than they should Grad E: Where where they were not monotonic PhD C: right ? There s things that are l in smaller increments than a frame And so then I mean you look at that and it s got you know more than three significant digits in a synch time then that can not be right Grad E: Oh OK so that s PhD C: so anyway it s it s just that s why we only have twenty minutes but there s a significant amount of Grad F: Non zero ? there are like more cuz there s a lot of zeros I tacked on just because of the way the script ran Grad E: The other one I saw was that it Grad F: I mean but there were there was a point PhD C: that was fine That that was OK Grad E: The other one I saw was non non monotonic synch times and that definitely indicra indicates a bug PhD C: Well that would really be a problem So anyway these are just the ones that are the prebug for one meeting Grad E: So that s very encouraging PhD C: this is really encouraging cuz this is free recognition there s no I mean the language model for Switchboard is totally different so you can see some like this Trent Lott which I mean these are sort of funny ones PhD D: It will get those though PhD C: there s a lot of perfect ones and good ones and all the references I mean you can read them and when we get more results you can look through and see Grad E: I and as I said I would like to look at the lattices PhD C: but it s pretty good Grad E: because it sounded like even the ones it got wrong it sort of got it right ? PhD C: Well so I guess we can generate PhD A: There are a fair number of errors that are you know where got the plural S wrong or the inflection on the verb wrong Grad E: and who cares ? And and there were lots of of course the `` `` s `` in on `` s `` of `` s PhD C: there s No those are actually a lot of the errors I think are out of vocabulary so is it like PZM is three words it s PZM I mean there s nothing There s no language model for PZM or Grad E: Did you say there s no language for PZM ? PhD C: No language model I mean those Grad E: Do you mean so every time someone says PZM it s an error ? Maybe we should not say PZM in these meetings PhD C: Well well there s all kinds of other stuff like Jimlet and I mean anyway there Professor B: Well we do not even know what that means PhD C: so but this is really encouraging because so I mean the bottom line is even though it s not a huge amount of data it should be reasonable to actually run recognition and be like within the scope of of r reasonable s you know Switchboard this is like h about how well we do on Switchboard two data with the Switchboard one trained mostly trained recognizer and Switchboard two is got sort of a different population of speakers and a different topic and they are talking about things in the news that happened after Switchboard one so there was so that s great Professor B: so we are in better shape than we were say when we did had the ninety three workshop and we were all getting like seventy percent error on Switchboard PhD C: I mean this is really and thanks to Andreas who I mean this is a Grad E: Well especially for the very first run I mean you","The group discussed recognition results generated for 20 minutes of close-talking microphone data. Recognition performance was very good, indicating promising results for forced alignment procedures and the ability to analyze other important signal information, e.g. prosody and overlapping speech. It was decided that close-talking data should be downsampled and fed to the SRI recognizer to compare recognition performance, and that data from the far-field microphones should be tested on the recognizer as soon as possible." "PhD C: so is it like PZM is three words it s PZM I mean there s nothing There s no language model for PZM or Grad E: Did you say there s no language for PZM ? PhD C: No language model I mean those Grad E: Do you mean so every time someone says PZM it s an error ? Maybe we should not say PZM in these meetings PhD C: Well well there s all kinds of other stuff like Jimlet and I mean anyway there Professor B: Well we do not even know what that means PhD C: so but this is really encouraging because so I mean the bottom line is even though it s not a huge amount of data it should be reasonable to actually run recognition and be like within the scope of of r reasonable s you know Switchboard this is like h about how well we do on Switchboard two data with the Switchboard one trained mostly trained recognizer and Switchboard two is got sort of a different population of speakers and a different topic and they are talking about things in the news that happened after Switchboard one so there was so that s great Professor B: so we are in better shape than we were say when we did had the ninety three workshop and we were all getting like seventy percent error on Switchboard PhD C: I mean this is really and thanks to Andreas who I mean this is a Grad E: Well especially for the very first run I mean you the first run I ran of Switchboard I got a hundred twenty percent word error but PhD C: So and what al also this means is that I mean there s a bunch of things in this note to various people especially I guess with Jane that that would help for since we have this new data now in order to go from the transcripts more easily to just the words that the recognizer would use for scoring I had to deal with some of it by hand but I think a lot of it can be automated s by Professor B: Oh one thing I guess I did not get so you know the language model was straight from from bigram from Switchboard the acoustic models were also from Switchboard or or So they did not have anything from this acoustic data in yet ? PhD C: And actually we actually used Switchboard telephone bandwidth models PhD A: Well that s those are the only we ones there are PhD D: I was just going to say PhD C: so that s the on that s the only acoustic training data that we have a lot of and I guess Ramana so a guy at SRI said that there s not a huge amount of difference going from it s it s not like we probably lose a huge amount but we will not know because we do not have any full band models for s conversational speech PhD D: It s probably not as bad as going f using full band models on telephone band speech PhD C: Right so it s so Professor B: but for Broadcast News when we we played around between the two there was not a huge loss Grad E: Right it was not a big deal PhD A: I should I should say that the language model is not just Switchboard PhD C: so I wou so that s good Grad E: Although combining them worked well PhD A: it s also I mean there s actually more data is from Broadcast News but with a little less weight PhD C: Like Trent Lott must have been from I guess Switchboard was before PhD A: By the way just for fun we also ran I mean our complete system starts by doing ge a gender detection so just for the heck of it I ran that Grad E: And it said a hundred percent male ?","Following close-talking microphone recognition procedures, it was decided that data from the far-field microphones (or PZMs) should be tested on the recognizer as soon as possible. Speaker mn017 will compare close-talking microphone recognition results with those obtained for downsampled data. The SRI recognizer will be set up at ICSI to enable researchers to run their own variants." "Grad E: So if we want to use a different set headset the solution that the guy suggested and they apparently lots of people have done is Sony will sell you the jack with just wires coming out the end and then you can buy a headset that has pigtail and solder it yourself And that s the other solution and so the jacks are forty bucks apiece and the he recommended a crown CM three eleven AE headset for two hundred bucks apiece Professor B: There is not this some sort of thing that plugs in you actually have to go and do the soldering yourself ? Grad E: Becau the reason is the only only thing you can get that will plug into this is this mike or just the connector Professor B: No I understand The reason I ask is these sort of handmade wiring jobs fall apart in use so the other thing is to see if we can get them to do a custom job and put it together for this Grad E: Oh I m sure they would they would just charge us PhD D: Well and they would probably want quantity too Professor B: no they will just charge us more so it s this Grad E: So so my question is should we go ahead and get na nine identical head mounted crown mikes ? Professor B: Not before having one come here and have some people try it out Because there s no point in doing that if it s not going to be any better Grad E: So why do not we get one of these with the crown with a different headset ? And and see if that works Professor B: And see if it s preferable and if it is then we will get more PhD C: Cuz I mean I think the microphones are OK it s just the the",The group decided to purchase one additional head-mounted crown microphone. A tentative decision was also made to acquire a hand-held wireless microphone to pass around to additional meeting participants should the installation of more close-talking microphones prove too difficult. "Grad F: OK so I think the middle block does not really give you any more information ex than the top block And the bottom block similarly only just illus you know all it does is illustrate that you can drop the subscripts and and that you can drop the that you can give dual types Oh one thing I should mention is about `` designates `` I think I m actually inconsistent across these as well So strike out the M subscript on the middle block So basically now this is actually this little change actually goes along with a big linguistic change which is that `` designates `` is not only something for the semantics to worry about now So we want s `` designates `` to actually know one of the constituents which acts like a head in some respects but is sort of really important for say composition later on So for instance if some other construction says you know `` are you of type is this part of type whatever `` the `` designates `` tells you which sort of part is the meaning part OK so if you have like `` the big red ball `` you know you want to know if there s an object or a noun Well ball is going to be the designated sort of element of that kind of phrase there is a slight complication here which is that when we talk about form it s useful sometimes to talk about to talk about there also being a designated object and we think that that will be the same one right ? So the ball is the head of the phrase `` the r the `` `` big red ball `` and the entity denoted by the word `` ball `` is sort of the semantic head in some ways of of this sort of in interesting larger element Professor C: A a and the And there s there s ca some cases where the grammar depends on some form property of the head And and this enables you to get that if I understand you right Grad F: And you might be able to say things like if the head has to go last in a head final language you can refer to the head as a p the you know the formal head as opposed to the rest of the form having to be at the end of that decision So that s a useful thing so that you can get some internal structural constraints in Professor C: OK so that all looks good Let me Oh w Oh I do not know Were you finished ? Grad F: there was a list of things that is not included but you you can you can ask a question That might it Professor C: OK So i if I understand this the aside from construed and all that sort of stuff the the differences are mainly that we ve gone to the possibility of having form meaning pairs for a type or actually gone back to if we go back far enough Grad F: Well except for their construction meaning so it s not clear that Well right now it s a c contr construction type and meaning type So I do not know what a form type is Professor C: Oh I see I m sorry you are right A construction type that s fine But it Grad F: Right A well and a previous you know version of the notation certainly allowed you to single out the meaning bit by it So you could say `` construct of type whatever designates something `` But that was mostly for reference purposes just to refer to the meaning pole I do not think that it was often used to give an extra meaning const type constraint on the meaning which is really what we want most of the time I think I I do not know if we will ever have a case where we actually h if there is a form category constraint you could imagine having a triple there that says you know that s kind of weird Professor C: No no no I do not think so I think that you will you will do fine In fact these are as long as as Mark is not around these are form constraints So a nominal expression is the fact that it s animate is semantic The fact that it s n a nominal expression I would say on most people s notion of of f you know higher form types this i this is one","The revised semantic specification and construction formalism are more stable than the previous versions. In the latter, we find both construction types and meaning types along with formal considerations like verb subcategorization, or the ones a ""directed motion"" construction would dictate." "Professor C: I will I will wait OK Grad F: but I think that something like that is probably going to be more more what we have to do OK that was one comment And you had another one ? Grad A: well the once you know what the focus is the everything else is background How about `` topic comment `` that s the other side of information Grad F: so that was the other thing And so I did not realize it before It s like `` oh ! `` It was an epiphany that it you know topic and focus are a contrast set So topic is Topic focused seems to me like background profile OK or a landmark trajector or some something like that There s there s definitely that kind of thing going on Now I do not know whether I n I do not have as many great examples of like topic indicating constructions on like focus right ? topic it seems kind of you know I think that might be an ongoing kind of thing Grad E: Japanese has this though You know that s what `` wa `` is just to mark which thing is the topic It does not always have to be the subject Grad F: Mm Right So again information structure has a topic slot And you know I stuck it in thinking that we might use it I think I stuck it in and one thing that I did not do consistently is when we get there is like indicate what kind of thing fits into every role I think I have an idea of what it should be but th you know so far we ve been getting away with like either a type constraint or you know whatever I forg it will be a frame You know it will be it will be another predication or it will be I do not know some value from from some something some variable and scope or something like that or a slot chain based on a variable and scope OK so well that s should we flip over to the other side officially then ? I keep like pointing forward to it Now we will go back to s OK so this does not include something which mi mi may have some effect on on it which is the discourse situation context record right ? So I did not I I meant just like draw a line and like you know you also have some tracking of what was going on And sort of this is a big scale comment before I you know look into the details of this But for instance you could imagine instead of having I I changed the name of it used to be `` entities `` So you see it s `` scenario `` `` referent `` and `` discourse segment `` And `` scenario `` is essentially what kind of what s the basic predication what event happened And actually it s just a list of various slots from which you would draw draw in order to paint your picture a bunch of frames bi and bindings right ? and obviously there are other ones that are not included here general cultural frames and general like other action f","The semantic specification, on the other hand, is split into three levels: ""scenario"" is a list of schemas and bindings between them, which describes the current event in terms of Source-Path-Goal, Container, etc.; ""referent"" is about the entities in the discourse and includes grammatical information and pointers to the ontology; ""discourse segment"" comprises utterance-specific things." "Grad F: or this is something that s like in my world knowledge but not active Professor C: This well there there seems to be context properties Grad F: they are contex and for instance I used to have a location thing there but actually that s a property of the situation And it s again time you know at cert certain points things are located you know near or far from you Professor C: cuz until we do the mental space story we are not quite sure comment Th th which is fine We will just we will j Grad F: So some of these are Professor C: we just do not know yet Grad F: Right So I so for now I thought well maybe I will just have in this list the things that are relevant to this particular utterance right ? Everything else here is utterance specific and I left the slot `` predications `` open because you can have things like `` the guy I know from school `` Or you know like your referring expression might be constrained by certain like unbounded na amounts of prep you know predications that you might make And it s unclear whether I mean you could just have in your scenario `` here are some extra few things that are true `` right ? And then you could just sort of not have this slot here Right ? You are but but it s used for identification purposes So it s it s a little bit different from just saying `` all these things are true from my utterance `` Grad E: Right `` this guy I know from school came for dinner `` does not mean `` there s a guy I know him from school and he came over for dinner `` That s not the same effect Grad F: it s a little bit it s a little bit different Right ? So Or maybe that s like a restrictive non restrictive you know it s like it gets into that kind of thing for but maybe I m mixing you know this is kind of like the final result after parsing the sentence So you might imagine that the information you pass to you know in identifying a particular referent would be `` oh some `` you know `` it s a guy and it s someone I know from school `` So maybe that would you know be some intermediate structure that you would pass into the disc to the whatever construal engine or whatever discourse context to find you know either create this reference in which case it would be created here and you know so so you could imagine that this might not So I m uncommitted to a couple of these things Grad A: But to make it m precise at least in my mind it s not precise So `` house `` is gender neuter ? In reality Grad F: So it a table You know a thing that c does not have a gender So it could be that I mean maybe you would maybe not all these I mean I wou I would say that I tried to keep slots here that were potentially relevant to most most things Grad A: No just to make sure that we everybody that s completely agreed that it it has nothing to do with form Grad F: OK that is semantic as opposed to That s right Grad A: Then `` predications `` makes sense to to have it open for something like accessibility or not Grad F: S so again Open to various things Right OK so Let s see So maybe having made that big sca sort of like large scale comment should I just go through each of these slots each of these blocks a little bit ? mostly the top one is sort of image schematic And just a note which was that s so when we actually ha so for instance some of them seem more inherently static OK like a container or sort of support ish And others are a little bit seemingly inherently dynamic like `` source path goal `` is often thought of that way or `` force `` or something like that But in actual fact I think that they are intended to be sort of neutral with respect to that And different X schemas use them in a way that s either static or dynamic So `` path `` you could just be talking about the path between this and this And you know `` container `` that you can go in and out All of these things And so I think this came up when Ben and I were working with the Spaniards the other day the `` Spaniettes `` as we called them to decide like how you want to split up like s image schematic contributions versus like X schematic contributions How do you link them up And I think again it s going to be something in the X schema that tells you `` is this static or is this dynamic `` So we definitely need that sort of aspectual type gives you some of that that you know is it a state or is it a change of state or is it a action of some kind ? Grad A: i i i is there any meaning to when you have sort of parameters behind it and when you do not ? Grad F: Oh oh ! You mean in the slot ?","Mental spaces can be tackled with mechanisms that can also deal with context issues (time, space etc.): creating a base space and rules of interaction with other interconnected spaces. However, the complexity of these mechanisms has to be bound as well: it is necessary to define the range of constructions to be studied. " "Grad F: I keep like pointing forward to it Now we will go back to s OK so this does not include something which mi mi may have some effect on on it which is the discourse situation context record right ? So I did not I I meant just like draw a line and like you know you also have some tracking of what was going on And sort of this is a big scale comment before I you know look into the details of this But for instance you could imagine instead of having I I changed the name of it used to be `` entities `` So you see it s `` scenario `` `` referent `` and `` discourse segment `` And `` scenario `` is essentially what kind of what s the basic predication what event happened And actually it s just a list of various slots from which you would draw draw in order to paint your picture a bunch of frames bi and bindings right ? and obviously there are other ones that are not included here general cultural frames and general like other action f you know specific X schema frames OK whatever The middle thing used to be `` entities `` because you could imagine it should be like really a list where here was various information And this is intended to be grammatically specifiable information about a referent you know about some entity that you were going to talk about So `` Harry walked into the room `` `` Harry `` and `` room `` you know the room th but they would be represented in this list somehow And it could also have for instance it has this category slot it should be either category or in or instance Basically it could be a pointer to ontology So that everything you know about this could be could be drawn in But the important things for grammatical purposes are for things like number gender ki the ones I included here are slightly arbitrary but you could imagine that you need to figure out wheth if it s a group whether some event is happening linear time linear spaces like you know are are they doing something serially or is it like I m I m not sure Because this partly came from Talmy s schema and I m not sure we will need all of these actually But and then the `` status `` I used was like again in some languages you know like for instance in child language you might distinguish between different status So th the the big com and and finally `` discourse segment `` is about sort of speech act y information structure y like utterance specific kinds of things So the comment I was going to make about changing entity the entity s block to reference is that you can imagine your discourse like situation context you have a set of entities that you are sort of referring to And you might that might be sort of a general I do not know database of all the things in this discourse that you could refer to And I changed to `` reference `` cuz I would say for a particular utterance you have particular referring expressions in it And those are the ones that you get information about that you stick in here For instance I know it s going to be plural I know it s going to be feminine or something like that And and these could actually just point to you know the the ID in my other list of enti active entities right ? So th there s there s all this stuff about discourse status We ve talked about I almost listed `` discourse status `` as a slot where you could say it s active You know there s this hierarchy there s a schematization of you know things can be active or they can be accessible inaccessible It was the one that you know Keith emailed to us once to some of us not all of us And the thing is that that I noticed that that list was sort of discourse dependent It was like in this particular set s you know instance it has been referred to recently or it has not been or this is something that s like in my world knowledge but not active Professor C: This well there there seems to be context properties Grad F: they are contex and for instance I used to have a location thing there but actually that s a property of the situation And it s again time you know at cert certain points things are located you know near or far from you Professor C: cuz until we do the mental space story we are not quite sure comment Th th which is fine We will just we will j Grad F: So some of these are Professor C: we just do not know yet Grad F: Right So I so for now I thought well maybe I will just have in this list the things that are relevant to this particular utterance right ? Everything else here is utterance specific and I left the slot `` predications `` open because you can have things like `` the guy I know from school `` Or you know like your referring expression might be constrained by certain like unbounded na amounts of prep you know predications that you might make And it s unclear whether I mean you could just have in your scenario `` here are some extra few things that are true `` right ? And then you could just sort of not have this slot here Right ? You are but but it s used for identification purposes So it s it s a little bit different from just saying `` all these things are true from my utterance `` Grad E: Right `` this guy I know from school came for dinner `` does not mean `` there s a guy I know him from school and he came over for dinner `` That s not the same effect Grad F: it s a little bit it s a little bit different Right ? So Or maybe that s like a restrictive non restrictive you know it s like it gets into that kind of thing for but maybe I m mixing you know this is kind of like the final result after parsing the sentence So you might imagine that the information you pass to you know in identifying a particular referent would be `` oh some `` you know `` it s a guy and it s someone I know from school `` So maybe that would you know be some intermediate structure that you would pass into the disc to the whatever construal engine or whatever discourse context to find you know either create this reference in which case it would be created here and you know so so you could imagine that this might not So I m uncommitted to a couple of these things Grad A: But to make it m precise at least in my mind it s not precise So `` house `` is gender neuter ? In reality","Given the domains currently used (tourist, child language learning), some features, like speaker attitude, are not of equal importance at this stage. On the other hand, it was decided for the inheritance between constructions to be left out for now, as the notation can be rendered more elegant later on." "Professor D: We are on ? Yes please I mean we are testing noise robustness but let s not get silly OK so you ve got some Xerox things to pass out ? PhD A: I m sorry for the table but as it grows in size it Professor D: so for th the last column we use our imagination OK This one s nice though This has nice big font Grad C: Let s see Chop ! Professor D: When you get older you have these different perspectives I mean lowering the word hour rate is fine but having big font ! PhD A: Next time we will put colors or something Professor D: It s mostly big font OK PhD A: OK s so there is kind of summary of what has been done It s this Summary of experiments since well since last week and also since the we ve started to run work on this pause So since last week we ve started to fill the column with features w with nets trained on PLP with on line normalization but with delta also because the column was not completely well it s still not completely filled but pause we have more results to compare with network using without PLP and pause finally hhh comment pause ehhh comment PL delta seems very important pause I do not know If you take let s say anyway Aurora two B so the next t the second part of the table pause when we use the large training set using French Spanish and English you have one hundred and six without delta and eighty nine with the delta Professor D: a And again all of these numbers are with a hundred percent being the baseline performance but with a mel cepstra system going straight into the HTK ? PhD A: So now we see that the between the different training set is much pause much smaller Grad C: It s out of the way PhD A: But actually for English training on TIMIT is still better than the other languages And Mmm pause And f also for Italian actually If you take the second set of experiment for Italian so the mismatched condition pause when we use the training on TIMIT so it s multi English we have a ninety one number and training with other languages is a little bit worse Professor D: Oh I see Down near the bottom of this sheet PhD A: And and here the is still more important between using delta and not using delta If y if I take the training s the large training set it s we have one hundred and seventy two and one hundred and four when we use delta pause Even if the contexts used is quite the same because without delta we use seventeenths seventeen frames so the second point is that we have no single cross language experiments that we did not have last week so this is training the net on French only or on English only and testing on Italian And training the net on French only and Spanish only and testing on TI digits And fff comment What we see is that these nets are not as good except for the multi English which is always one of the best then we started to work on a large dat database containing sentences from the French from the Spanish from the TIMIT from SPINE from comment English digits and from Italian digits So this is the another line another set of lines in the table with SPINE and pause actually we did this before knowing the result of all the data so we have to to redo the the experiment training the net with PLP but with delta But this this net performed quite well Well it s it s better than the net using French Spanish and English only So We have also started feature combination experiments many experiments using features and net outputs together And this is The results are on the other document we can discuss this after perhaps well just so basically there are four four kind of systems The first one is combining two feature streams using and each feature stream has its own MPL So it s the kind of similar to the tandem that was proposed for the first The multi stream tandem for the first proposal The second is using features and KLT transformed MLP outputs And the third one is to you use a single KLT trans transform features as well as MLP outputs Mmm You know you can you can comment these results PhD B: Yes I can s I would like to say that for example mmm if we does not use the delta delta we have an improve when we use s some combination But when PhD A: we ju just to be clear the numbers here are recognition accuracy PhD B: w this this number recognition acc PhD A: So it s not the Again we switch to another PhD B: Yes and the baseline the baseline have i is eighty two PhD A: So it s experiment only on the Italian mismatched for the moment for this PhD B: And first in the experiment one I I do I I use different MLP and is obviously that the multi English MLP is the better for the ne rest of experiment I use multi English only multi English And I try to combine different type of feature but the result is that the MESSAGE three feature does not work for the Italian database because never help to increase the accuracy PhD A: eh actually if w we look at the table the huge table we see that for TI digits MESSAGE perform as well as the PLP but this is not the case for Italian what where the error rate is c is almost twice the error rate of PLP So well I do not think this is a bug but this this is something in probably in the MESSAGE process that I do not know what exactly Perhaps the fact that the the there s no low pass filter well or no pre emp pre emphasis filter and that there is some DC offset in the Italian or well something simple like that But that we need to sort out if want to get improvement by combining PLP and MESSAGE because for the moment MESSAGE do does not bring much information And as Carmen said if we combine the two we have the result basically of PLP Professor D: I the baseline system when you said the baseline system was eighty two percent that was trained on what and tested on what ? That was Italian mismatched d digits is the testing and the training is Italian digits ? So the `` mismatch `` just refers to the noise and and microphone and so forth right ? So did we have So would that then correspond to the first line here of where the training is is the Italian digits ? PhD B: The train the training of the HTK ? This h Yes Th Yes Professor D: Yes Training of the net So So what that says is that in a matched condition we end up with a fair amount worse putting in the PLP Now w would do we have a number I suppose for the matched I I do not mean matched but use of Italian training in Italian digits for PLP only ? PhD A: pause so this is basically this is in the table pause so the number is fifty two Fift So No it s it s the Professor D: No fifty two percent of eighty two ? PhD A: Of of of pause eighteen So it s it s error rate basically It s er error rate ratio So Professor D: Oh this is accuracy ! PhD A: so we have nine nine let s say ninety percent Professor D: Oy ! comment OK Ninety PhD A: comment which is comment what we have also if use PLP and MESSAGE together Professor D: OK so even just PLP it is not in the matched condition I wonder if it s a difference between PLP and mel cepstra or whether it s that the net half for some reason is not helping PhD A: P PLP and Mel cepstra give the same same results Professor D: Same result pretty much ? PhD A: Well we have these results I do not know It s not Do you have this result with PLP alone comment j fee feeding HTK ? That That s what you mean ? Just PLP at the input of HTK PhD B: at the first and the Professor D: Well but that s that s without the neural net PhD A: that s without the neural net and that s the result basically that OGI has also with the MFCC with on line normalization Professor D: But she had said eighty two PhD A: This is the w well but this is without on line normalization Professor D: Right ? Oh this the eighty two PhD A: Eighty two is the it s the Aurora baseline so MFCC Then we can use well OGI they use MFCC th the baseline MFCC plus on line normalization Professor D: Oh I m sorry I k I keep getting confused because this is accuracy Alright So this is I was thinking all this was worse OK so this is all better because eighty nine is bigger than eighty two OK I m I m all better now OK go ahead PhD A: So what happ what happens is that when we apply on line normalization we jump to almost ninety percent when we apply a neural network is the same We j jump to ninety percent PhD B: Nnn we do not know exactly PhD A: And And whatever the normalization actually If we use n neural network even if the features are not correctly normalized we jump to ninety percent So Professor D: So we go from eighty si eighty eight point six to to ninety or something PhD A: Well ninety No I I mean ninety It s around eighty nine ninety eighty eight Well there are minor minor differences Professor D: And then adding the MESSAGE does nothing basically For this case right ? Alright So So actually the answer for experiments with one is that adding MESSAGE if you does not help in that case The other ones we would have to look at it but And the multi English does So if we think of this in error rates we start off with eighteen percent error rate roughly pause and pause we almost cut that in half by putting in the on line normalization and the neural net And the MESSAGE does not however particularly affect things And we cut off I guess about twenty five percent of the error pause no not quite that is it two point six out of eighteen About pause sixteen percent or something of the error if we use multi English instead of the matching condition Not matching condition but the Italian training PhD B: We select these these these tasks because it s the more difficult Professor D: Yes good OK ? So then you are assuming multi English is closer to the kind of thing that you could use since you are not going to have matching data for the for the new for the other languages and so forth one qu thing is that I think I asked you this before but I want to double check When you say `` ME `` in these other tests that s the multi English PhD A: That s it s a part it s Professor D: but it is not all of the multi English right ? It is some piece of part of it And the multi English is how much ? PhD B: You have here the information PhD A: It s one million and a half Professor D: Oh so you used almost all You used two thirds of it you think So it it s still it hurts you seems to hurt you a fair amount to add in this French and Spanish Grad C: Well Stephane was saying that they were not hand labeled the French and the Spanish PhD B: The Spanish Maybe for that Professor D: It s still OK Alright go ahead And then then PhD B: Mmm with the experiment type two I first I tried to to combine nnn some feature from the MLP and other feature another feature And we s we can first the feature are without delta and delta delta and we can see that in the situation the MESSAGE three the same help nothing And then I do the same but with the delta and delta delta PLP delta and delta delta And they all p but they all put off the MLP is it without delta and delta delta And we have a l little bit less result than the the the baseline PLP with delta and delta delta Maybe if when we have the new the new pause neural network trained with PLP delta and delta delta maybe the final result must be better I do not know PhD A: Actually just to be some more Do This number this eighty seven point one number has to be compared with the Professor D: Yes I mean it can not be compared with the other cuz this is with multi English training So you have to compare it with the one over that you ve got in a box which is that the eighty four point six PhD A: but I mean in this case for the eighty seven point one we used MLP outputs for the PLP net and straight features with delta delta And straight features with delta delta gives you what s on the first sheet It s eight eighty eight point six Professor D: Not trained with multi English PhD A: but th this is the second configuration PhD B: No but they they feature without PhD A: So we use feature out net outputs together with features So this is not perhaps not clear here but in this table the first column is for MLP and the second for the features Professor D: Eh comment Oh I see Ah So you are saying w so asking the question `` What what has adding the MLP done to improve over the PhD A: So just so actually it it it decreased the the accuracy Because we have eighty eight point six And even the MLP alone What gives the MLP alone ? Multi English PLP Oh no it gives eighty three point six So we have our eighty three point six and now eighty eighty point six that gives eighty seven point one Professor D: Mm Eighty s I thought it was eighty Oh OK eighty three point six and eighty eighty eight point six PhD A: Eighty three point six Eighty Is th is that right ? ? PhD B: But I do not know but maybe if we have the neural network trained with the PLP pause delta and delta delta maybe tha this can help Professor D: Well that s that s one thing but see the other thing is that I mean it s good to take the difficult case but let s let s consider what that means What what we are saying is that one o one of the things that I mean my interpretation of your your s original suggestion is something like this as motivation When we train on data that is in one sense or another similar to the testing data then we get a win by having discriminant training When we train on something that s quite different we have a potential to have some problems And if we get something that helps us when it s somewhat similar and does not hurt us too much when it when it s quite different that s maybe not so bad So the question is if you took the same combination and you tried it out on on say digits PhD A: On TI digits ? OK Professor D: you know d Was that experiment done ? OK then does that eh you know maybe with similar noise conditions and so forth comment does it does it then look much better ? And so what is the range over these different kinds of of tests ? So an anyway OK go ahead PhD B: And with this type of configuration which I do on experiment using the new neural net with name broad klatt s twenty seven d I have found more or less the same result PhD A: So it s slightly better PhD B: Slightly bet better Yes is better Professor D: And and you know again maybe if you use the delta pause there you would bring it up to where it was you know at least about the same for a difficult case PhD A: Well so perhaps let s let s jump at the last experiment It s either less information from the neural network if we use only the silence output It s again better So it s eighty nine point point one PhD B: and we have only forty forty feature because in this situation we have one hundred and three feature And then w with the first configuration I f I am found that work does not work well work but is better the second configuration Because I for the del Engli PLP delta and delta delta here I have eighty five point three accuracy and with the second configuration I have eighty seven point one","Last run of experiments showed that adding more languages was still severely harming model performance. They noted that normalization of any kind has a good effect on the model, whereas MSG does nothing." "Professor D: Alright So this is I was thinking all this was worse OK so this is all better because eighty nine is bigger than eighty two OK I m I m all better now OK go ahead PhD A: So what happ what happens is that when we apply on line normalization we jump to almost ninety percent when we apply a neural network is the same We j jump to ninety percent PhD B: Nnn we do not know exactly PhD A: And And whatever the normalization actually If we use n neural network even if the features are not correctly normalized we jump to ninety percent So Professor D: So we go from eighty si eighty eight point six to to ninety or something PhD A: Well ninety No I I mean ninety It s around eighty nine ninety eighty eight Well there are minor minor differences Professor D: And then adding the MESSAGE does nothing basically For this case right ? Alright So So actually the answer for experiments with one is that adding MESSAGE if you does not help in that case The other ones we would have to look at it but And the multi English does So if we think of this in error rates we start off with eighteen percent error rate roughly pause and pause we almost cut that in half by putting in the on line normalization and the neural net And the MESSAGE does not however particularly affect things And we cut off I guess about twenty five percent of the error pause no not quite that is it two point six out of eighteen About pause sixteen percent or something of the error if we use multi English instead of the matching condition Not matching condition but the Italian training PhD B: We select these these these tasks because it s the more difficult Professor D: Yes good OK ? So then you are assuming multi English is closer to the kind of thing that you could use since you are not going to have matching data for the for the new for the other languages and so forth one qu thing is that I think I asked you this before but I want to double check When you say `` ME `` in these other tests that s the multi English PhD A: That s it s a part it s Professor D: but it is not all of the multi English right ? It is some piece of part of it And the multi English is how much ? PhD B: You have here the information PhD A: It s one million and a half Professor D: Oh so you used almost all You used two thirds of it you think So it it s still it hurts you seems to hurt you a fair amount to add in this French and Spanish Grad C: Well Stephane was saying that they were not hand labeled",The professor noted that the results were better than he expected and that the MSG did nothing. He also noted that adding French and Spanish to the multilingual English model hurt the model. "PhD A: And fff comment What we see is that these nets are not as good except for the multi English which is always one of the best then we started to work on a large dat database containing sentences from the French from the Spanish from the TIMIT from SPINE from comment English digits and from Italian digits So this is the another line another set of lines in the table with SPINE and pause actually we did this before knowing the result of all the data so we have to to redo the the experiment training the net with PLP but with delta But this this net performed quite well Well it s it s better than the net using French Spanish and English only So We have also started feature combination experiments many experiments using features and net outputs together And this is The results are on the other document we can discuss this after perhaps well just so basically there are four four kind of systems The first one is combining two feature streams using and each feature stream has its own MPL So it s the kind of similar to the tandem that was proposed for the first The multi stream tandem for the first proposal The second is using features and KLT transformed MLP outputs And the third one is to you use a single KLT trans transform features as well as MLP outputs Mmm You know you can you can comment these results PhD B: Yes I can s I would like to say that for example mmm if we does not use the delta delta we have an improve when we use s some combination But when PhD A: we ju just to be clear the numbers here are recognition accuracy PhD B: w this this number recognition acc PhD A: So it s not the Again we switch to another PhD B: Yes and the baseline the baseline have i is eighty two PhD A: So it s experiment only on the Italian mismatched for the moment for this PhD B: And first in the experiment one I I do I I use different MLP and is obviously that the multi English MLP is the better for the ne rest of experiment I use multi English only multi English And I try to combine different type of feature but the result is that the MESSAGE three feature does not work for the Italian database because never help to increase the accuracy PhD A: eh actually if w we look at the table the huge table we see that for TI digits MESSAGE perform as well as the PLP but this is not the case for Italian what where the error rate is c is almost twice the error rate of PLP So well I do not think this is a bug but this this is something in probably in the MESSAGE process that I do not know what exactly Perhaps the fact that the the there s no low pass filter well or no pre emp pre emphasis filter and that there is some DC offset in the Italian or well something simple like that But that we need to sort out if want to get improvement by combining PLP and MESSAGE because for the moment MESSAGE do does not bring much information And as Carmen said if we combine the two we have the result basically of PLP Professor D: I the baseline system when you said the baseline system was eighty two percent that was trained on what and tested on what ? That was Italian mismatched d digits is the testing and the training is Italian digits ? So the `` mismatch `` just refers to the noise and and microphone and so forth right ? So did we have So would that then correspond to the first line here of where the training is is the Italian digits ? PhD B: The train the training of the HTK ? This h Yes Th Yes Professor D: Yes Training of the net So So what that says is that in a matched condition we end up with a fair amount worse putting in the PLP Now w would do we have a number I suppose for the matched I I do not mean matched but use of Italian training in Italian digits for PLP only ? PhD A: pause so this is basically this is in the table pause so the number is fifty two Fift So No it s it s the Professor D: No fifty two percent of eighty two ? PhD A: Of of of pause eighteen So it s it s error rate basically It s er error rate ratio So Professor D: Oh this is accuracy ! PhD A: so we have nine nine let s say ninety percent Professor D: Oy ! comment OK Ninety PhD A: comment which is comment what we have also if use PLP and MESSAGE together Professor D: OK so even just PLP it is not in the matched condition I wonder if it s a difference between PLP and mel cepstra or whether it s that the net half for some reason is not helping PhD A: P PLP and Mel cepstra give the same same results Professor D: Same result pretty much ? PhD A: Well we have these results I do not know It s not Do you have this result with PLP alone comment j fee feeding HTK ? That That s what you mean ? Just PLP at the input of HTK PhD B: at the first and the Professor D: Well but that s that s without the neural net PhD A: that s without the neural net and that s the result basically that OGI has also with the MFCC with on line normalization Professor D: But she had said eighty two PhD A: This is the w well but this is without on line normalization Professor D: Right ? Oh this the eighty two PhD A: Eighty two is the it s the Aurora baseline so MFCC Then we can use well OGI they use MFCC th the baseline MFCC plus on line normalization Professor D: Oh I m sorry I k I keep getting confused because this is accuracy Alright So this is I was thinking all this was worse OK so this is all better because eighty nine is bigger than eighty two OK I m I m all better now OK go ahead PhD A: So what happ what happens is that when we apply on line normalization we jump to almost ninety percent when we apply a neural network is the same We j jump to ninety percent PhD B: Nnn we do not know exactly PhD A: And And whatever the normalization actually If we use n neural network even if the features are not correctly normalized we jump to ninety percent So Professor D: So we go from eighty si eighty eight point six to to ninety or something PhD A: Well ninety No I I mean ninety It s around eighty nine ninety eighty eight","PhD A thought that most of the nets are not that good, except for the multi English. MSG was not bringing as much information as he thought it would. He explained that even when the features were not normalized, the neural network would perform at 90%, as it would with normalization." "Professor D: But it s another thing to try PhD A: So this is w w i wa wa this is one thing this this could be could help could help perhaps to reduce language dependency and for the noise part we could combine this with other approaches like well the Kleinschmidt approach So the d the idea of putting all the noise that we can find inside a database I think Kleinschmidt was using more than fifty different noises to train his network and So this is one approach and the other is multi band that I think is more robust to the noisy changes So perhaps I think something like multi band trained on a lot of noises with features based targets could could could help Professor D: if you i i It s interesting thought maybe if you just trained up I mean w one one fantasy would be you have something like articulatory targets and you have pause some reasonable database but then which is copied over many times with a range of different noises And If Cuz what you are trying to pause do is come up with a a core reasonable feature set which is then going to be used by the the HMM pause system PhD A: So The future work is pause well try to connect to the to make to plug in the system to the OGI system there are still open questions there where to put the MLP basically Professor D: And I guess you know the the the real open question I mean e you there s lots of open questions but one of the core quote comment `` open questions `` for that is if we take the you know the best ones here maybe not just the best one but the best few or something You want the most promising group from these other experiments how well do they do over a range of these different tests not just the Italian ? y pause Right ? And then then see pause again how We know that there s a mis there s a a a loss in performance when the neural net is trained on conditions that are different than than we are going to test on but well if you look over a range of these different tests how well do these different ways of combining the straight features with the MLP features stand up over that range ? That s that that seems like the the the real question And if you know that So if you just take PLP with the double deltas Assume that s the p the feature look at these different ways of combining it And take let s say just take multi English because that works pretty well for the training And just look take that case and then look over all the different things How does that How does that compare between the PhD A: So all the all the test sets you mean Professor D: All the different test sets and for and for the couple different ways that you have of of of combining them pause How well do they stand up over the PhD A: Mmm And perhaps doing this for cha changing the variance of the streams and so on pause getting different scaling Professor D: That s another possibility if you have time PhD A: so thi this sh would be more working on the MLP as an additional path instead of an insert to the to their diagram Cuz Perhaps the insert idea is kind of strange because nnn they they make LDA and then we will again add a network does discriminate anal nnn that discriminates Professor D: pause It s a little strange but on the other hand they did it before PhD A: And because also perhaps we know that the when we have very good features the MLP does not help So I do not know Professor D: the other thing though is that So we we want to get their path running here right ? If so we can add this other stuff as an additional path right ? PhD A: the the way we want to do Professor D: Cuz they are doing LDA pause RASTA They are doing LDA RASTA PhD A: the way we want to do it perhaps is to just to get the VAD labels and the final features So they will send us the Well provide us with the feature files and with VAD binary labels so that we can get our MLP features and filter them with the VAD and then combine them with their f feature stream So Professor D: I see So we So First thing of course we would want to do there is to make sure that when we get those labels of final features is that we get the same results as them Without putting in a second path PhD A: You mean Oh ! Just re re retraining r retraining the HTK ? Professor D: just th w i i Just to make sure that we pause have we understand properly what things are our very first thing to do is to is to double check that we get the exact same results as them on HTK I mean I do not know that we need to r pause Do we need to retrain I mean we can just take the re their training files also But pause But just for the testing jus just make sure that we get the same results pause so we can duplicate it before we add in another Cuz otherwise you know we will not know what things mean PhD A: Oh OK And so fff LogRASTA I do not know if we want to We can try pause networks with LogRASTA filtered features Mmm I m sorry ? Well But Professor D: Oh ! You know the other thing is when you say comb I m I m sorry I m interrupting comment that you when you are talking about combining multiple features Suppose we said `` OK we ve got these different features and so forth but PLP seems pause pretty good `` If we take the approach that Mike did and have I mean one of the situations we have is we have these different conditions We have different languages we have different different noises pause If we have some drastically different conditions and we just train up different M L Ps pause with them And put put them together What what What Mike found for the reverberation case at least I mean I mean who knows if it will work for these other ones That you did have nice interpolative effects That is that yes if you knew pause what the reverberation condition was going to be and you trained for that then you got the best results But if you had say a heavily reverberation ca heavy reverberation case and a no reverberation case and then you fed the thing something that was a modest amount of reverberation then you would get some result in between the two So it was sort of behaved reasonably Is tha that a fair PhD A: So you you think it s perhaps better to have several M L but Professor D: It works better if pause what ? I see Well see i oc You were doing some something that was So maybe the analogy is not quite right You were doing something that was in way a little better behaved You had reverb for a single variable which was re reverberation Here the problem seems to be is that we do not have a hug a really huge net with a really huge amount of training data But we have s f pause for this kind of task I would think pause sort of a modest amount I mean a million frames actually is not that much We have a modest amount of of training data from a couple different conditions and then in that and the real situation is that there s enormous variability that we anticipate in the test set in terms of language and noise type and pause channel characteristic sort of all over the map A bunch of different dimensions And so I m just concerned that we do not really have pause the data to train up I mean one of the things that we were seeing is that when we added in we still do not have a good explanation for this but we are seeing that we are adding in a fe few different databases and the performance is getting worse and when we just take one of those databases that s a pretty good one it actually is is is is is better And that says to me yes that you know there might be some problems with the pronunciation models that some of the databases we are adding in or something like that But one way or another pause we do not have seemingly the ability pause to represent in the neural net of the size that we have all of the variability pause that we are going to be covering So that I m I m I m hoping that this is another take on the efficiency argument you are making which is I m hoping that with moderate size neural nets that if we if they look at more constrained conditions they they will have enough parameters to really represent them Mm Mm Mm PhD A: So doing both is is not is not right you mean or ? Professor D: I I just sort of have a feeling I mean i i e The I think it s true that the OGI folk found that using LDA pause RASTA which is a kind of LogRASTA it s just that they have the I mean it s done in the log domain as I recall and it s it it s just that they d it s trained up right ? That that benefitted from on line normalization So they did At least in their case it did seem to be somewhat complimentary So will it be in our case where we are using the neural net ? I mean they they were not not using the neural net I do not know OK so the other things you have here are trying to improve results from a single Make stuff better OK And CPU memory issues We ve been sort of ignoring that have not we ? PhD A: so I do not know But we have to address the problem of CPU and memory we Professor D: but I li Well I think My impression You you folks have been looking at this more than me But my impression was that there was a a a a strict constraint on the delay but beyond that it was kind of that using less memory was better and using less CPU was better Something like that PhD A: So but we ve I do not know We have to get some reference point to where we Well what s a reasonable number ? Perhaps be because if it s if it s too large or large or Professor D: well I do not think we are completely off the wall I mean I think that if we if we have I mean the ultimate fall back that we could do If we find I mean we may find that we we are not really going to worry about the M L You know if the MLP ultimately after all is said and done does not really help then we will not have it in If the MLP does we find help us enough in some conditions we might even have more than one MLP We could simply say that is done on the server And it s We do the other manipulations that we are doing before that So I I I think I think that s pause that s OK So I think the key thing was this plug into OGI what what are they What are they going to be working Do we know what they are going to be working on while we take their features PhD A: They are They are starting to wor work on some kind of multi band So This that was Pratibha Sunil what was he doing do you remember ? He was doing something new or ? PhD B: I I do not re I did not remember Maybe he s working with pause neural network PhD A: I do not think so Trying to tune wha networks ? I think they were also mainly well working a little bit of new things like networks and multi band but mainly trying to tune their their system as it is now to just trying to get the best from this this architecture Professor D: OK So I guess the way it would work is that you would get There would be some point where you say `` OK this is their version one `` or whatever and we get these VAD labels and features and so forth for all these test sets from them and then that s what we work with We have a certain level we try to improve it with this other path and then when it gets to be January some point we say `` OK we we have shown that we can improve this in this way So now pause pause what s your newest version ? `` And then maybe they will have something that s better and then we we would combine it This is always hard I mean I I I used to work pause with folks who were trying to improve a good HMM system with with a neural net system and it was pause a common problem that you would Oh and this Actually this is true not just for neural nets but just for in general if people were pause working with rescoring N best lists or lattices that come came from a mainstream recognizer You get something from the the other site at one point and you work really hard on making it better with rescoring But they are working really hard too So by the time pause you have improved their score they have also improved their score and now there is not any difference So I guess at some point we will have to comment I I do not know I think we are we are integrated a little more tightly than happens in a lot of those cases I think at the moment they they say that they have a better thing we can we e e What takes all the time here is that th we are trying so many things presumably in a in a day we could turn around taking a new set of things from them and and rescoring it right ? So Well OK No this is I think this is good I think that the most wide open thing is the issues about the you know different trainings You know da training targets and noises and so forth PhD A: Mmm So we we can for we c we can forget combining multiple features and MLG perhaps Professor D: That s sort of wide open PhD A: or focus more on the targets and on the training data and ? Professor D: I think for right now I th I I really liked MESSAGE And I think that you know one of the things I liked about it is has such different temporal properties And I think that there is ultimately a really good potential for you know bringing in things with different temporal properties but we only have limited time and there s a lot of other things we have to look at And it seems like much more core questions are issues about the training set and the training targets and fitting in what we are doing with what they are doing and you know with limited time I think pause we have to start cutting down So I think so And then you know once we having gone through this pause process and trying many different things I would imagine that certain things come up that you are curious about that you would not getting to and so when the dust settles from the evaluation I think that would time to go back and take whatever intrigued you most you know got you most interested and and and work with it you know for the next round as you can tell from these numbers nothing that any of us is going to do is actually going to completely solve the problem So So comment there will still be plenty to do Barry you ve been pretty quiet Well I figured that but That what what what were you involved in in this primarily ? Grad C: helping out preparing Well they ve been kind of running all the experiments and stuff and I ve been w doing some work on the on the preparing all all the data for them to to train and to test on Right now I m I m focusing mainly on this final project I m working on in Jordan s class Professor D: I see Right What s what s that ? Grad C: I m trying to So there was a paper in ICSLP about this this multi band belief net structure comment This guy did basically it was two H M Ms with with a with a dependency arrow between the two H M And so I want to try try coupling them instead of t having an arrow that that flows from one sub band to another sub band I want to try having the arrows go both ways And I m just going to see if if that that better models pause asynchrony in any way or pause Professor D: Oh ! OK Well that sounds interesting OK Alright Anything to you wanted to No OK Silent partner in the in the meeting Oh we got a laugh out of him that s good OK everyone h must contribute to the our our sound sound files here OK so speaking of which if we do not have anything else that we need You happy with where we are ? Know know wher know where we are going ? You are happy OK everyone pause should be happy OK You do not have to be happy You are almost done OK Grad E: Al actually I should mention So if comment about the Linux machine `` Swede `` So it looks like the neural net tools are installed there And Dan Ellis comment I believe knows something about using that machine so If people are interested in in getting jobs running on that maybe I could help with that PhD A: but I do not know if we really need now a lot of machines Well we could start computing another huge table but we Professor D: Well I think we want a different table at least Right ? I mean there s there s some different things that we are trying to get at now So as far as you can tell you are actually OK on C on CPU for training and so on ? PhD A: Ah I think so Well more is always better but mmm I do not think we have to train a lot of networks now that we know We just select what works pause fine and try to improve this Professor D: And we are OK on And we are OK on disk ? PhD A: and It s OK Well sometimes we have some problems Professor D: But they are correctable problems Yes I m familiar with that one OK Alright so comment since we did not ha get a channel on for you comment you do not have to read any digits but the rest of us will is it on ? Well We did not I think I will not touch anything cuz I m afraid of making the driver crash which it seems to do pause pretty easily OK thanks OK so we will I will start off the connect the Well let s hope it works Maybe you should go first and see so that you are OK Grad C: your battery s going down too Carmen s battery is d going down too Professor D: Oh OK Why do not you go next then OK Guess we are done OK so Just finished digits so Well it s good I think I guess we can turn off our microphones now Grad C: Just pull the batteries out",The team discussed testing a multi-band approach that is more resistance to noise. The professor thought that it many not be a bad idea to put together several MLP's to improve performance. The team also thought that there might be problems with the pronunciation models. "PhD A: or focus more on the targets and on the training data and ? Professor D: I think for right now I th I I really liked MESSAGE And I think that you know one of the things I liked about it is has such different temporal properties And I think that there is ultimately a really good potential for you know bringing in things with different temporal properties but we only have limited time and there s a lot of other things we have to look at And it seems like much more core questions are issues about the training set and the training targets and fitting in what we are doing with what they are doing and you know with limited time I think pause we have to start cutting down So I think so And then you know once we having gone through this pause process and trying many different things I would imagine that certain things come up that you are curious about that you would not getting to and so when the dust settles from the evaluation I think that would time to go back and take whatever intrigued you most you know got you most interested and and and work with it you know for the next round as you can tell from these numbers nothing that any of us is going to do is actually going to completely solve the problem So So comment there will still be plenty to do Barry you ve been pretty quiet","The professor generally liked MSG because of its different temporal properties. Nonetheless, he recognized that it might not be practical to explore it further due to time constraints. At this point, he thought that there were no clear solutions to the challenges they were facing, but there was still plenty to do." "Professor D: OK Alright Anything to you wanted to No OK Silent partner in the in the meeting Oh we got a laugh out of him that s good OK everyone h must contribute to the our our sound sound files here OK so speaking of which if we do not have anything else that we need You happy with where we are ? Know know wher know where we are going ? You are happy OK everyone pause should be happy OK You do not have to be happy You are almost done OK Grad E: Al actually I should mention So if comment about the Linux machine `` Swede `` So it looks like the neural net tools are installed there",The professor asked if the team was happy with their progress. The team thought that they were okay. The professor was insistent that everyone be happy since they were pretty much done. "Industrial Designer: So do I unplug this bit here ? Marketing: Got To plug you in Project Manager: Yep Might have to hit function F eight but it looks like it is going to come up Yep Cool Industrial Designer: Right That is page one of my presentation Marketing: Very nice For your first PowerPoint it is lovely Industrial Designer: So the method We are going to have to understand how remote controls work and res successfully complete this project remote control works as follows This is all pretty basic stuff you guys sends message to another system so there is an energy source involved in that like a battery or solar power something along those lines there is an integrated circuit which is the microchip and that actually compose the messages and usually the way a a remote control works is it sends infrared bits to another system A user interface controls the chip basically that is the casing and the buttons and accordingly the messages as well So my findings I just did a preliminary study here and I found that too much metal in remote design could potentially because interference with the ability of the remote to send commands And too much metal can cause remotes to behave unexpectedly by receiving false signals too much metal is used sometimes and people pick up radio signals and the like and there is also the possibility of the remote catching on fire and injuring the customer just think of those lawsuits that would be really bad Therefore I suggest primarily plastic construction components Just some ideas that I had energy source it is kind of hip to be eco friendly so I thought maybe we could do something with solar power with an alkaline battery backup the user interface I was since we can not use metal I was thinking maybe a high grade recycled plastic The chip silicon based chip I do not really see any way around that we can not really be different in that respect the sender well I am thinking infrared because it is the industry standard multi channel that is a word I made up I do not really know what it means PAL and NTSC compatible and probably a two hundred foot range and the receiver of course is any number of electronic devices but in this case it will only be TVs personal preferences I really think that we should use plastic as opposed to metal the company simply can not afford this kinds of lawsuits which adm admittedly is going to come at the cost of a certain aesthetic value Project Manager: Is is there a way that we can use modern types of polymers or mo modern types of plastics that maybe do have some kind of aesthetic value like if a white like if we talk about like well like on the lapt on these laptops and other ones they use a a pretty nice you can do i is there some kind of nice colo der quality plastic that we can work with ? Industrial Designer: that should not be a problem for example the plastic they have on your laptop there is something that is perfectly possible for us to do That is the end of my presentation Project Manager: Great Thank you very much Nathan if next we can have the User Interface Developer go ahead and make a brief presentation that would be great as well S plug yourself in here Mm hit function F eight real quickly hold down Mm Marketing: Looks like you are in Industrial Designer: Is it plugged in well ? There it goes Computer adjusting User Interface: Well so Here we have a my technical functions design presentation so a few of the requirements we need here we n basically need to operate an electronic device it needs to be universal and possibly operate several different types of devices although we now find that that that is no problem Project Manager: sorry I could not get that g to use before User Interface: so some of my findings basically want to send messages to a television set that would be any number of different things such as switch on the television switch to the next channel that sort of thing I think we are all quite quite intelligent and know know what a normal remote control does now some of the other things I found is a a complicated remote control sorry that we can not quite see my red there very well but this remote control has many functions so it can do a lot of things but it it is quite complicated and most users will find it find that they will not use most of the functions because they do not know how to use them and do not want to take the time to learn how to do it As you also notice it is quite a boring design Another remote control slightly different it is a simpler remote control many less buttons but has many fewer functions m much easier for the user to manipulate and use it also has a bit of a cheap look and it is also quite boring So Revolutionise the idea of a remote control so attain the functionality of a complicated device but use a simple formatted display for the user to to work with And I was going to add another slide here but I did not quite have time there Just incorporating some of the ideas that we had previously like having multiple face but it is Project Manager: Great Thanks for that Ron Marketing: Does that mean I am up ? User Interface: I can plug you in Marketing: Oh that would be perfect Thank you Slide show up and running Project Manager: Give it a little bit Marketing: Or not Oh there we go Perfect So this is me basically I was looking through some marketing reports that we have got and we had a usability test where we were actually sort like watching a hundred people use TV remotes and see what it is that they are using and then they filled out a questionnaire about what they like and what they do not about their general TV remote control practices pretty much through testing we were finding out that most of the time everybodys used to using changing the channel turning it on using the volume m the majority of the time that is all that is going on the other functions happen for some people they are important but the primary uses are really really basic and so big complicated remotes like one we saw in the last presentation are really not the general publics use they are not using a lot of it they do not need it they even find it frustrating when there are all those buttons that they do not know what to do with And we also found out that fifty percent of our people their the worst thing about a remote is how often they lose it And then they can not find it in the room So I think what we were talking about with a pager or something will really come into play with a lot of these people there is also a survey about what they liked about remotes and pretty much they all think they are hideous and not very useful and the younger demographics are all really interested in voice recognition options I do not know if that is something we are ready to look into technically that is up to the design people but it is s something worth thinking about especially since the younger demographics obviously the one that is going to keep growing so if that is the direction we are headed in it is something to think about but basically it really is the primary functions and getting it to look nice which are the standards So it is a good start for us Project Manager: That is great Thank you Sarah Right So Marketing: Need to unplug this ? Project Manager: yep I will just switch that back here I will finish up with just a bit of discussion plan on for the next phase Right so I think we have covered most of these important questions through this through you guyss presentations we have got y the Industrial Designer suggests or pretty much emphatically suggested that we need to go with plastic Sarah she is recommended that we go for simpler functions so fewer functions but we need to decide who are we selling this to you s your stats suggested that seventy five percent of people under thirty five wanted thought about voice control so do we want to go for that or do we want to go for an older demographic and my thought is we have got w if we are going to go for a sleek look I mean we are putting the fashion in electronics Marketing: We are not catering to the pensioners of the world I do not think so Project Manager: Yes So maybe this we should look into this younger demographic So","Except for the Project Manager, the other three members of the group all did a presentation to show their research findings on the television remote. The Industrial Designer suggested not to use too much metal in case they would disturb the signals. After him, the User Interface focused on the functions that he proposed neither to make the remote too confusing nor cheap-looking. The last one is the Marketing and she introduced the consumer preference as well as the existing problem of easily losing the remote." "Marketing: Or not Oh there we go Perfect So this is me basically I was looking through some marketing reports that we have got and we had a usability test where we were actually sort like watching a hundred people use TV remotes and see what it is that they are using and then they filled out a questionnaire about what they like and what they do not about their general TV remote control practices pretty much through testing we were finding out that most of the time everybodys used to using changing the channel turning it on using the volume m the majority of the time that is all that is going on the other functions happen for some people they are important but the primary uses are really really basic and so big complicated remotes like one we saw in the last presentation are really not the general publics use they are not using a lot of it they do not need it they even find it frustrating when there are all those buttons that they do not know what to do with And we also found out that fifty percent of our people their the worst thing about a remote is how often they lose it And then they can not find it in the room So I think what we were talking about with a pager or something will really come into play with a lot of these people there is also a survey about what they liked about remotes and pretty much they all think they are hideous and not very useful and the younger demographics are all really interested in voice recognition options I do not know if that is something we are ready to look into technically that is up to the design people but it is s something worth thinking about especially since the younger demographics obviously the one that is going to keep growing so if that is the direction we are headed in it is something to think about but basically it really is the primary functions and getting it to look nice which are the standards So it is a good start for us Project Manager: That is great Thank you Sarah Right So Marketing: Need to unplug this ? Project Manager: yep I will just switch that back here I will finish up with just a bit of discussion plan on for the next phase Right so I think we have covered most of these important questions through this through you guyss presentations we have got y the Industrial Designer suggests or pretty much emphatically suggested that we need to go with plastic Sarah she is recommended that we go for simpler functions so fewer functions but we need to decide who are we selling this to you s your stats suggested that seventy five percent of people under thirty five wanted thought about voice control so do we want to go for that or do we want to go for an older demographic and my thought is we have got w if we are going to go for a sleek look I mean we are putting the fashion in electronics Marketing: We are not catering to the pensioners of the world I do not think so Project Manager: Yes So maybe this we should look into this younger demographic So","The Marketing proposed to use voice control on the remote and according to his research, three quarters of people under 35 are in favour of voice control. At the same time, in order to keep the remote not so easy to be lost as its counterparts of other brands, voice control would be an essential technique. For those two reasons, the Marketing persuaded the Project Manager to target their consumers as the youth." "Industrial Designer: With a simple command like locate And then it could start to beep Marketing: Is that only going to be within our two hundred foot range then ? Industrial Designer: Oh I think that is very doable Project Manager: The difficulty wh would be in I think like i you could not speak into the remote that you are trying to find Kay you have something that picks up a voice from far away Industrial Designer: It is a good point Project Manager: If it is hidden under the couch but then again you have this wee this wee thing you know that is just a little chip or whatever that has the page button maybe that could be voice activated too User Interface: A little sticky pad to stick on top of your television And you just say something to into that Project Manager: Or an isolated magnet or something like or you know something that would not interfere I do not know that would be the technical thing","To cater to the potential consumers aged under 35, the group decided to use voice control to locate the remote. During their discussion of the voice control technique on the remote control, they also took into consideration several detailed problems. They planned to set the control range within 200 feet and arrange a voice-controlled sticky pad on top of the television on which there would also be a page button." "Marketing: menu options or something to have all these other complicated voice recognition settings things that you are not going to use every day and that a lot of people are not going to use but it is an option there for this hitech market that sort of re is the sleek thing we are going for Industrial Designer: Got To wonder though if we are adding so much technology to this one remote are we still going to be able to meet out twelve pou our twelve fifty Euro you know goal for selling these things It seems like we are not going to be able to handle all these functions with just one microchip The microchip is probably the most expensive part of the the whole mechanism So it is just something to consider Project Manager: Absolutely Mm kay well I guess we will cross that bridge in a la slightly later stages of development but I know that is perfectly viable question Mm kay so I am seeing that we are going to just basically focus on this young demographic group aim it at them but then in a sense that its bells and whistles are available for anybody who wants them but basically we will make a sleek simple functioned remote control","Due to the limited budget as well as to achieve a satisfying user experience, the Project Manager proposed only to keep the most essential functions in case they would be beyond the capacity of the microchip." "Project Manager: True if plastic is dead cheap and if we are making the whole thing out of plastic anyway we will cross that bridge later but we will have to evaluate what is most important I think we have had a bit of discussion already on this thing n s there any other questions comments that came up in these presentations ? User Interface: Well have we confirmed that we are going to go ahead with a touch screen Project Manager: I think that would be best Let us based on what sh on what you guys have all said to me let us go for a plastic built or b plastic cased because tha tha that is easy on the cost try to look for some kind of high quality recycled plastic as you recommended and I think that is a great idea With a touch screen for the basic functions And we will tha let us provisionally let us go for a touch screen one with several submenus for possible extra stuff that one basically put the channel and the on and off switch on the touch screen do we have Mm wait a minute it occurs to me that if we have a touch screen people are going to have to recharge their remote controls Yet at the same time that might help for this whole complaint of it being lost Marketing: True Because it would have a docking base ? Project Manager: Mmhmm But then again that costs as well User Interface: So these new lithium batteries they last twenty years even with the touch screen ? Industrial Designer: Can we afford to include one of those ? Marketing: Can we afford that ? And will somebody buy it if we do not ? Project Manager: Well I I do not think I can not see anybody buying a lap a remote control that they have to plug in so we would have to see some kind of new battery technology so let us go with a touch screen with some kind of you know with with some kind of cutting edge battery technology","The group talked about the material and they found it would be hard to balance the budget and the quality. In order to save the cost and ensure satisfying user experience, the Project Manager decided to choose high-quality recycled plastic as the material. But in terms of the battery, he would pay a lot to equip the remote with a cutting-edge lithium battery." "Industrial Designer: What what would be on that touch screen ? Because you said earlier that we have to think about company colours and logo or something or motto I can not remember exactly what you said User Interface: We put fashion into electronics Project Manager: W it is my understanding that if you were going to do a skin you would need to have some way for people to download or import skins into the remote control Marketing: Right and then you are dealing with ports and cords and Project Manager: I think that that one m might just be and they just I think that one might just be out of the range for this particular a PDA would they would makes a lot of sense for a PDA because you are going to be using it to connect up to things anyway but I do not know what do you guys think ? Industrial Designer: Think we just need to come up with a nice black and red interface on the touch screen User Interface: I I am I am in agreement with that I am wondering how we are going to get we put fashion into electronics onto this device Marketing: Well but if we are going to use a touch screen where it is going to come on like on your cell phone it will have your your carrier provider name come up first like while it is loading and then it goes away perhaps it could be like a temporary Comes on every time you turn it on and then that is it because it is a bit much to have it like engraved on the back or something I think User Interface: I am hoping for a subliminal maybe half a millisecond as it turns on Project Manager: I know I d it seems like it would suffice to have just the RR on there Industrial Designer: People are not going to want their remote to boot up and to see flashing things come on Marketing: If it comes from above Industrial Designer: They just want it to be on and ready to go Project Manager: Well fair enough and that would help the battery life too and if it the remote they do have to press a button for the remote to turn on But then again who wants to turn on a remote control Kind of if i User Interface: Well all you have to do is touch the screen and it automatically goes on Project Manager: to wake up or go into like a dormant mode User Interface: Yep Goes into a sleep mode Project Manager: Oh I like that I like the idea of putting the logo in the boot up screen nice cool so any last things before we break ? Alright Fair enough Sounds good","In terms of putting fashion into the electronics, this is both their slogan and their design target. Apart from the company colour of black and red, the Project Manager came up with the idea of providing skins for the users. But the members were not in favour of this idea for that the work would be huge, at the same time, they were inspired to add the logo on the boot-up screen and introduce a dormant mode because most people do not want the remote to be flashing when the TV is on." "The Chair: Seeing no further petitions to be presented we will continue and we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely Go ahead Mr Scheer Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): It was revealed yesterday that this governments policy was to ignore fraud The Prime Ministers reaction was to act as if everything was normal In fact we have learned that over 200000cases of suspected fraud have been identified in the benefit applications The Prime Minister is failing our future generations Our children and grandchildren are going to pay back billions of dollars that he is borrowing to pay tax cheats Will the Prime Minister protect taxpayers and immediately begin a review of these 200000cases of suspected fraud ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Our priority was to get money out quickly to all Canadians who needed it and that is exactly what we have done Millions of Canadians have received the money they so desperately needed Having said that I want to make it very clear MrChair : Fraud is unacceptable We have measures in place to detect fraud All fraudsters will be required to pay back the money they fraudulently received from the government We are going to make sure that this is done in the coming months Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair Conservatives agree that those who need help should get it and no one is arguing that they should not but reports indicate that the Liberals have ordered public servants to turn a blind eye to 200000 cases of suspected fraud It is a simple question : Yes or no did the government instruct any government department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases ? Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the priority in this situation was getting money out to the millions of Canadians who needed it as quickly as possible but of course fraud is unacceptable That is why we have put safeguards in place to ensure that anyone who received that money fraudulently will have to repay it Hon. Andrew Scheer: It is a yesorno question Mr Chair Did the government give any kind of instruction to public servants in any department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases yes or no ?","The Prime Minister was adamant that fraud was unacceptable and reiterated that fraudsters would have to return the money. Nonetheless, the government's priority remained the speedy disbursement of funds to those that were in need." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to the honourable member for Hamilton Mountain Mr Duvall Mr. Scott Duvall (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Mr Chair I was pleased to hear about extending the tax deadline to October 1 in yesterdays announcement for seniors After many discussions with the Minister of Seniors I was glad to hear that she was listening to the NDP and many others on making this happen It stops a lot of interruptions for people who could not get their taxes done Mr Chair COVID19 has been showing us in stark terms that Canadian seniors are struggling to make ends meet in Canada Before enduring the crisis it was clear that OAS and GIS benefits levels were just not enough for seniors to keep up with the cost of living so we need to fix this now Why is the government refusing to increase OAS and GIS benefits to lift seniors out of poverty on a permanent basis ? Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): Mr Chair I want to thank my honourable colleague for giving me this opportunity to rise today and talk about how we are supporting Canadian seniors during this pandemic Many Canadian seniors are facing significant health economic and social challenges as a result of the pandemic They built this country and now they need our help Our government is taking significant action to provide Canadian seniors with greater financial security and give them the help they need during this crisis We are building on past measures by introducing a onetime taxfree payment of 300 for those who receive OAS and of 200 for those receiving GIS totalling 500 to seniors who receive both We are also supporting communitybased projects to improve the quality of life for seniors through the New Horizons for Seniors program and investing in other charities Seniors need our help and we are delivering for them Mr. Scott Duvall: Mr Chair I was glad to hear that the Minister of Seniors is acknowledging the financial burden that our seniors are taking on She mentioned the prescription dispensing fees the added costs of their groceries and the delivery charges I was glad that the Prime Minister acknowledged the heavy toll seniors are facing and that they helped to shape this country and now they need our help A surprising statement that I heard yesterday was the Treasury Board and the seniors ministers admission in their press briefing that the level of assistance being provided to Canadian seniors is quite low Why is the seniors minister acknowledging all the burdens they are trying to help the seniors with but the response they are giving is just a very low way of handling it ?",The Minister of Seniors clarified that his office recognizes that seniors are in great need. The minister explained that those receiving OAS and GIS are getting payments of $200 and $300 respectively. The minister was insistent that this was not an insignificant amount. "The Chair: MrBlanchet now has the floor Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you very much MrChair On Friday students in Quebec and Canada will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit which is a good thing This program was necessary particularly because the number of students who will not be able to get back their jobs from last year is much higher than the number of jobs that might be available to these young people There are also issues of duration We do not know how long these jobs will remain unavailable People talked about a risk to being in the labour market and meeting the needs of the labour market On April29 the Deputy Prime Minister made a formal commitment to ensure that these programs are accompanied by work incentives for youth and all CESB recipients So that everyone knows what they are getting into I would like to know whether the employment incentives that will accompany the Canada emergency response benefit will be known by Friday Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I thank the hon member for understanding the importance of supporting students who for the most part will not be able to get the summer jobs they were counting on Young people do not just want to earn money they also want to gain work experience That is why we are setting up programs including Canada summer jobs but also another program with 76000new jobs for young people in important sectors so that young people can also get jobs We will continue to work with youth and employers to ensure that gaps in the labour market are addressed while ensuring that youth are wellsupported Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: That is very interesting but it does not answer my question at all People in the fishing tourism and agricultural sectors as well as municipalities and from the very beginning of course the Government of Quebec more generally have expressed fears that job gains will cause people to lose their benefits and discourage them from going to work The only way to avoid that is to ensure that people keep more money as they work more That is the principle In fact we propose that over the 1000nopenalty limit half of the earnings be exempt from penalty Is this something that could be considered ? Since it is been two weeks since the commitment was made and it is urgent can we act now ? The emergency should not last eight months Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair young people need money but they also need work experience This is an unprecedented situation which is why we are working with seasonal industries and the different regions to make sure they have a sufficient workforce in their situation Students can be part of it but at the same time we must provide the necessary support for those who can not find a job That is why we continue to work with the industries involved to ensure that they have a sufficient workforce while we support students Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Unfortunately the spirit of it does not seem to have been understood I doubt that even in the bestcase scenario the government will be able to get all the jobs needed in a timely manner for all these young people to decide to go ahead So first of all there will be a shortage of jobs Second people are not crazy If they earn less by working than they earn by not working all the good faith in the world will not solve the problem Can we make sure that people keep more money in their pockets as they work more ? I think we can have a clear answer given the timeframe People are going to start registering for the program on Friday The principles are good but a clear answer would be good too","The Prime Minister clarified that while young people are in need of funds, especially due to loss of income over the summer, they are also in need of work experience. The government would start providing the Canada emergency student benefit which will assist in this by making both jobs and money available." "Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr Chair an ongoing concern I have heard from small business owners is that they are ineligible for CEBA because they do not have a business account When I brought up this point to small business minister Ng at committee she said it was the first time that she had heard of this issue and that she would follow up I asked this question on April 23 and it is now been almost three weeks Small business has been let down Can the government confirm that they are going to fix this issue ? Hon. Navdeep Bains (MississaugaMalton, Lib.): Chair I would like to thank the honourable member for her question It is really important that this program that we have established help small businesses We have shown in the past that we are very flexible and nimble in accommodating the needs of businesses I assure the member opposite that we are looking into this matter and will come forward with a resolution in a timely manner Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr Chair I just read another email from a small business owner this morning who has been let down by the government He chose to pay off debts instead of paying himself a wage therefore he is ineligible for CEBA for that loan Owneroperators have been eliminated from participating in government programs because they did not put themselves on the payroll This shows a true lack of understanding of small businesses and especially of owneroperators Will the government commit to fixing this issue ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Thank you very much Again I want to thank the honourable member for her question We have focused particularly on small businesses to make sure they have the appropriate support they need With regard to the program that she highlighted we have shown flexibility in the eligibility criteria by decreasing the payroll threshold for individual companies that want to apply for this loan to 20000 versus 50000 and the upper limit has gone to 15 million versus 1 million We will continue to bring forward the changes necessary to have more businesses Mrs. Tracy Gray: This government has left Canadian craft breweries out to dry like the hops in their beer On April 24 the Canadian Craft Brewers Association released a report on the effects of COVID19 on the Canadian craft brewing industry The report states that 38 of craft brewers did not qualify for the Canadian emergency wage subsidy in March and 53 were either not sure or predicted that they would not qualify in April Many a brew pub like BNA in my riding due to higher payrolls are also not eligible for the CEBA loan They have been left out and let down Five per cent of these breweries have already closed permanently and others are on the verge of doing so A portion have stepped up and are making PPE Will this government take the initiative to support this industry by amending program requirements ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: When it comes to the Canada emergency wage subsidy we have demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness The program requirement changed in terms of revenue threshold We originally had 30 for the month of March We changed that to 15 The eligibility criteria to compare to the first two months of this year now also compare to the previous year as well We are going to continue to make changes to make sure more businesses can access this program The Chair: Ms Gray you have 33 seconds Mrs. Tracy Gray: In my constituency Okanagan fruit production is a huge industry and many apple orchardists have brought concerns to me regarding high costs apples from last season selling below cost the CUSMA agreement not helping the industy and lowpriced Washington apples flooding our market COVID19 has exacerbated their dire financial situation The BECAUSE Fruit Growers Association has called the government announcements of measures for agriculture underwhelming I questioned Minister Bibeau in the House a couple of months ago and at the time she did not have an answer What is the plan to help our orchardists ? Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (ComptonStanstead, Lib.): Thank you MrChair Since this crisis began we have been helping entrepreneurs in all sectors We began with measures to assist small medium and large companies and we are now going progressively sector by sector Last week we announced additional funding for agriculture The Chair: We will now go on to Mr Barlow Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC): Mr Chair in my riding of Foothills we have established a Foothills business recovery task force We surveyed hundreds of small business owners about the effectiveness of the emergency programs put forward by the government The results of that survey were quite alarming More than half of the respondents have not qualified for any of the programs and the vast majority of them have said their businesses will not last more than another month Will the government expand the eligibility for some of these programs to include sole proprietorships or is the government still looking at refunding the GST paid by some of the businesses over the last year ?","Bains said that the government has been accommodating of small businesses in the past and it will continue to do so. The government has increased the threshold for individual companies and looks forward to making further adjustments. Bains emphasized that 590,000 loans have already been distributed through the CEBA program, highlighting its efficacy." "Mr. Pat Kelly: Yesterday the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that Canadas debt could reach 1 trillion this year What will it cost to service a 1trillion debt ? Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr Speaker we remain committed to doing as we have said whatever it takes to support Canadians through this challenging time We think this is extremely important and we will continue to focus on the wellbeing of all Canadians Mr. Pat Kelly: What is the estimated annual debt servicing cost of the aid measures announced so far ? Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair there will be an opportunity for us to give a full outline of the costs and benefits of our measures and we will do that when we have the ability to have Mr. Pat Kelly: is Canadas AAA credit rating","Morneau explained that the government was committed to supporting Canadians. It came into the pandemic with a strong fiscal position, and while the pandemic will bring challenges, it will face those challenges while supporting small businesses and Canadians." "The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): The honourable Minister of Industry Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr Chair I would like to thank the honourable member for his question I want to highlight the fact that we did make an amendment When we originally proposed this initiative the threshold was 30 for the month of March Now businesses will only need to show a 15 decline in revenue and businesses will have the option of using January and February as a reference period to show revenue losses or of using the same time last year This reflects again our ability to understand the needs of businesses to act quickly and to make sure that they benefit from this very important initiative Mr. Larry Maguire: They still do not qualify Mr Chair The Blarney Stone restaurant in Killarney has repeatedly asked the Minister of Finance if they could refinance their loans through the Canada small business financing program Will the Minister of Finance give small business owners the ability to refinance their existing loans through the program yes or no ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr Chair again we have demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to these financing options I would also like to highlight another very important initiative that was mentioned earlier the deferring of GSTHST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months This will help 32 million business owners and entrepreneurs across the country Again it is another initiative to put more money in the pockets of businesses as they deal with this unprecedented health care crisis Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr Chair the Liberals still have not fixed the payroll eligibility problems for many small business owners who need to access the zerointerest loans available in CEBA Can the minister provide any rationale for why countless small businesses are not being allowed to access these loans ?",Bains said that the threshold for the program had been lowered to a 15% decline in revenue from a 30% decline. Businesses will also be able to compare losses to more recent time periods due to greater flexibility. Bain clarified that the government is listening to businesses and recognizes its need to be agile. "Mr. John Nater: Mr Chair the arts and culture industry has a massive impact on local economies In my riding alone we have the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum the Stratford Festival Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music The postponement and cancellation of the seasons of these important cultural institutions is having a massive impact on the hospitality industry including local restaurants hotels and bed and breakfasts Many of these businesses are small businesses and owneroperated businesses that are falling through the cracks in the governments programs that have been introduced How will the government address the blind spot in their programs for small businesses in communities like this which rely on the tourism and the arts and culture industries ? Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr Chair clearly we understand how important these organizations are to these communities That is why we allocated 500 million to respond to the specific financial needs of arts heritage and sports organizations to help them be more resilient through this difficult time Last week we rolled out the funding of this announcement and we look forward to engaging with communities across the country Mr. John Nater: Mr Chair 18 million jobs are attributed to the tourism industry in Canada Among these 740000 are related to international travelling No one wants to see the borders reopen until it is safe to do so but can the government provide clarity on what criteria will be used to provide some information to these tourism operators of how when and under what criteria international borders will be reopened ?","Bains claimed that the government was aware of these issues and had allocated $500 million to arts and culture organizations. Bains also explained that while pandemic control efforts were affecting these industries adversely, Canadians' health and safety remained the government's priority." "Professor A: So they would like clean channels and for that mmm that purpose they would like to pull it out So I think I think Dan Ellis or somebody who was working with him was going to work on that So OK Right ? And I do not know if we ve talked lately about the the plans you are developing that we talked about this morning I do not remember if we talked about that last week or not but maybe just a quick reprise of of what we were saying this morning Grad E: comment So continuing to extend PhD B: What about the stuff that Mirjam has been doing ? And and S Shawn Oh So they are training up nets to try to recognize these acoustic features ? I see Professor A: But that s all that s is a a certainly relevant comment study and you know what are the features that they are finding We have this problem with the overloading of the term `` feature `` so what are the variables what we are calling this one what are the variables that they are found finding useful PhD B: And their their targets are based on canonical mappings of phones to acoustic f features Professor A: Right And that s certainly one thing to do and we are going to try and do something more f more fine than that but so So I guess you know what I was trying to remember some of the things we were saying do you ha still have that ? There s those pause that some of some of the issues we were talking about was in j just getting a good handle on on what `` good features `` are and PhD B: What does what did Larry Saul use for it was the sonorant detector right ? How did he H how did he do that ? Wh what was his detector ? Mm Mm Oh OK Mm So how did he combine all these features ? What what r mmm classifier did he Oh right You were talking about that I see Professor A: And the other thing you were talking about is is is where we get the targets from So I mean there s these issues of what are the what are the variables that you use and do you combine them using the soft `` AND OR `` or you do something you know more complicated and then the other thing was so where do you get the targets from ? The initial thing is just the obvious that we are discussing is starting up with phone labels from somewhere and then doing the transformation But then the other thing is to do something better and eh w why do not you tell us again about this this database ? This is the And then tell them to talk naturally ? PhD B: Pierced tongues and You could just mount it to that and they would not even notice Weld it Zzz Professor A: Maybe you could go to these parlors and and you could you know you know have have you know reduced rates if you if you can do the measurements PhD B: I That s right You could what you could do is you could sell little rings and stuff with embedded you know transmitters in them and things Professor A: be cool and help science PhD B: ! There s a bunch of data that l around that people have done studies like that w way way back right ? I mean I can not remember where Wisconsin or someplace that used to have a big database of I remember there was this guy at A T andT Randolph ? or r What was his name ? Do you remember that guy ? researcher at A T andT a while back that was studying trying to do speech recognition from these kinds of features I can not remember what his name was Dang Now I will think of it That s interesting Professor A: Do you mean eh but you I mean Mar PhD C: Well he was the guy the guy that was using Professor A: you mean when was was Mark Randolph there or ? he s he s he s at Motorola now PhD C: Is it the guy that was using the pattern of pressure on the tongue or ? PhD B: I can not remember exactly what he was using now But I know I just remember it had to do with you know positional parameters and trying to m you know do speech recognition based on them Professor A: So the only the only hesitation I had about it since I mean I have not see the data is it sounds like it s it s continuous variables and a bunch of them And so I do not know how complicated it is to go from there What you really want are these binary pause labels and just a few of them And maybe there s a trivial mapping if you want to do it and it s e but it I I I worry a little bit that this is a research project in itself whereas if you did something instead that like having some manual annotation by you know linguistics students this would there would be a limited s set of things that you could do a as per our discussions with with John before but the things that you could do like nasality and voicing and a couple other things you probably could do reasonably well And then there would it would really be this binary variable Course then that s the other question is do you want binary variables So I mean the other thing you could do is boot trying to to get those binary variables and take the continuous variables from the the data itself there but I I m not sure PhD B: Could you cluster the just do some kind of clustering ? Bin them up into different categories and Professor A: So anyway that s that s that s another whole direction that cou could be looked at I mean in general it s going to be for new data that you look at it s going to be hidden variable because we are not going to get everybody sitting in these meetings to wear the pellets and So PhD B: So you are talking about using that data to get instead of using canonical mappings of phones So you would use that data to give you sort of what the the true mappings are for each phone ? Professor A: So wh where this fits into the rest in in my mind I guess is that we are looking at different ways that we can combine different kinds of of rep front end representations in order to get robustness under difficult or even you know typical conditions And part of it this robustness seems to come from multi stream or multi band sorts of things and Saul seems to have a reasonable way of looking at it at least for one one articulatory feature The question is is can we learn from that to change some of the other methods we have since I mean one of the things that s nice about what he had I thought was that that it it the decision about how strongly to train the different pieces is based on a a reasonable criterion with hidden variables rather than just assuming that you should train e e every detector with equal strength towards it being this phone or that phone Right ? So it so he s got these he `` AND s `` between these different features It s a soft `` AND `` I guess but in in principle you you want to get a strong concurrence of all the different things that indicate something and then he `` OR s `` across the different soft `` OR s `` across the different multi band channels And the weight the target for the training of the `` AND `` `` AND ed `` things is something that s kept as a hidden variable and is learned with THEM Whereas what we were doing is is taking the phone target and then just back propagating from that PhD B: So he does not have Professor A: which means that it s it s i It could be for instance that for a particular point in the data you do not want to train a particular band train the detectors for a particular band You you want to ignore that band cuz that s a Ban band is a noisy noisy measure And we do not We are we are still going to try to train it up In our scheme we are going to try to train it up to do as well well as it can at predicting Maybe that s not the right thing to do PhD B: So he does not have to have truth marks or Ho Grad E: F right and he does not have to have hard labels Professor A: Well at the at the tail end he has to know what s where it s sonorant But he s but what he s but what he s not training up what he does not depend on as truth is Grad E: Right For the full band Professor A: I guess one way of describing would be if if a sound is sonorant is it sonorant in this band ? Is it sonorant in that band ? Is it sonorant in that band ? i It s hard to even answer that what you really mean is that the whole sound is sonorant So then it comes down to you know to what extent should you make use of information from particular band towards making your decision And we are making in a sense sort of this hard decision that you should you should use everything with with equal strength And because in the ideal case we would be going for posterior probabilities if we had enough data to really get posterior probabilities and if the if we also had enough data so that it was representative of the test data then we would in fact be doing the right thing to train everything as hard as we can But this is something that s more built up along an idea of robustness from from the beginning and so you do not necessarily want to train everything up towards the PhD B: So where did he get his his tar his high level targets about what s sonorant and what s not ? Grad E: From canonical mappings comment at first","The team wanted to understand how they could combine different linguistic features to make a more robust recognition model. They were running experiments to figure out what the good features were. The team also entertained the possibility of clustering them, which would add to the robustness." "PhD B: Bin them up into different categories and Professor A: So anyway that s that s that s another whole direction that cou could be looked at I mean in general it s going to be for new data that you look at it s going to be hidden variable because we are not going to get everybody sitting in these meetings to wear the pellets and So PhD B: So you are talking about using that data to get instead of using canonical mappings of phones So you would use that data to give you sort of what the the true mappings are for each phone ? Professor A: So wh where this fits into the rest in in my mind I guess is that we are looking at different ways that we can combine different kinds of of rep front end representations in order to get robustness under difficult or even you know typical conditions And part of it this robustness seems to come from multi stream or multi band sorts of things and Saul seems to have a reasonable way of looking at it at least for one one articulatory feature The question is is can we learn from that to change some of the other methods we have since I mean one of the things that s nice about what he had I thought was that that it it the decision about how strongly to train the different pieces is based on a a reasonable criterion with hidden variables rather than just assuming that you should train e e every detector with equal strength towards it being this phone or that phone Right ? So it so he s got these he `` AND s `` between these different features It s a soft `` AND `` I guess but in in principle you you want to get a strong concurrence of all the different things that indicate something and then he `` OR s `` across the different soft `` OR s `` across the different multi band channels And the weight the target for the training of the `` AND `` `` AND ed `` things is something that s kept as a hidden variable and is learned with THEM Whereas what we were doing is is taking the phone target and then just back propagating from that PhD B: So he does not have Professor A: which means that it s it s i It could be for instance that for a particular point in the data you do not want to train a particular band train the detectors for a particular band You you want to ignore that band cuz that s a Ban band is a noisy noisy measure And we do not We are we are still going to try to train it up In our scheme we are going to try to train it up to do as well well as it can at predicting Maybe that s not the right thing to do PhD B: So he does not have to have truth marks or Ho Grad E: F right and he does not have to have hard labels Professor A: Well at the at the tail end he has to know what s where it s sonorant But he s but what he s but what he s not training up what he does not depend on as truth is Grad E: Right For the full band Professor A: I guess one way of describing would be if if a sound is sonorant is it sonorant in this band ? Is it sonorant in that band ? Is it sonorant in that band ? i It s hard to even answer that what you really mean is that the whole sound is sonorant So then it comes down to you know to what extent should you make use of information from particular band towards making your decision And we are making in a sense sort of this hard decision that you should you should use everything with with equal strength And because in the ideal case we would be going for posterior probabilities if we had enough data to really get posterior probabilities and if the if we also had enough data so that it was representative of the test data then we would in fact be doing the right thing to train everything as hard as we can But this is something that s more built up along an idea of robustness from from the beginning and so you do not necessarily want to train everything up towards the PhD B: So where did he get his his tar his high level targets about what s sonorant and what s not ? Grad E: From canonical mappings comment at first","The professor was not too excited about clustering. He thought that the team could identify the bands that were the most promising and weigh them more highly in the model. As it stood, the model was using all bands with equal strength." "Professor A: Do you mean eh but you I mean Mar PhD C: Well he was the guy the guy that was using Professor A: you mean when was was Mark Randolph there or ? he s he s he s at Motorola now PhD C: Is it the guy that was using the pattern of pressure on the tongue or ? PhD B: I can not remember exactly what he was using now But I know I just remember it had to do with you know positional parameters and trying to m you know do speech recognition based on them Professor A: So the only the only hesitation I had about it since I mean I have not see the data is it sounds like it s it s continuous variables and a bunch of them And so I do not know how complicated it is to go from there What you really want are these binary pause labels and just a few of them And maybe there s a trivial mapping if you want to do it and it s e but it I I I worry a little bit that this is a research project in itself whereas if you did something instead that like having some manual annotation by you know linguistics students this would there would be a limited s set of things that you could do a as per our discussions with with John before but the things that you could do like nasality and voicing and a couple other things you probably could do reasonably well","The professor recounted that the person who worked with positional parameters, Mark Randolph, is at Motorola. He explained that his model consisted of many continuous variables and that heading in that direction would become a research project in and of itself." "Professor A: Oh You are playing ? PhD B: Yes I m playing so I wanted to do this experiment to see what happens if we try to improve the performance of the back end recognizer for the Aurora task and see how that affects things And so I had this I think I sent around last week a this plan I had for an experiment this matrix where I would take the the original the original system So there s the original system trained on the mel cepstral features and then com and then optimize the b HTK system and run that again So look at the difference there and then do the same thing for the ICSI OGI front end Professor A: What which test set was this ? PhD B: This is that I looked at ? I m looking at the Italian right now So as far as I ve gotten is I ve been able to go through from beginning to end the full HTK system for the Italian data and got the same results that that Stephane had So I started looking to and now I m I m sort of lookin at the point where I want to know what should I change in the HTK back end in order to try to to improve it So One of the first things I thought of was the fact that they use the same number of states for all of the models and so I went on line and I found a pronunciation dictionary for Italian digits and just looked at you know the number of phones in each one of the digits you know sort of the canonical way of setting up a an HMM system is that you use three states per phone and so then the the total number of states for a word would just be you know the number of phones times three And so when I did that for the Italian digits I got a number of states ranging on the low end from nine to the high end eighteen Now you have to really add two to that because in HTK there s an initial null and a final null so when they use models that have eighteen states there are really sixteen states They ve got those initial and final null states And so their guess of eighteen states seems to be pretty well matched to the two longest words of the Italian digits the four and five which according to my you know sort of off the cuff calculation should have eighteen states each And so they had sixteen So that s pretty close but for the most of the words are sh much shorter So the majority of them want to have nine states And so theirs are s sort of twice as long So my guess And then if you I I printed out a confusion matrix for the well matched case and it turns out that the longest words are actually the ones that do the best So my guess about what s happening is that you know if you assume a fixed the same amount of training data for each of these digits and a fixed length model for all of them but the actual words for some of them are half as long you really have you know half as much training data for those models Because if you have a long word and you are training it to eighteen states you ve got you know you ve got the same number of Gaussians you ve got to train in each case but for the shorter words you know the total number of frames is actually half as many So it could be that you know for the short words there s because you have so many states you just do not have enough data to train all those Gaussians So I m going to try to create more word specific prototype H M Ms to start training from Professor A: I mean it s not at all uncommon you do worse on long word on short words than long words anyway just because you are accumulating more evidence for the for the longer word PhD B: so I will I will the next experiment I m going to try is to just you know create models that seem to be more w matched to my guess about how long they should be And as part of that I wanted to see sort of how the how these models were coming out you know what w when we train up th you know the model for `` one `` which wants to have nine states you know what is the what do the transition probabilities look like in the self loops comment look like in in those models ? And so I talked to Andreas and he explained to me how you can calculate the expected duration of an HMM just by looking at the transition matrix and so I wrote a little Matlab script that calculates that and so I m going to sort of print those out for each of the words to see what s happening you know how these models are training up you know the long ones versus the short ones I d I did quickly I did the silence model and and that s coming out with about one point two seconds as its average duration and the silence model s the one that s used at the beginning and the end of each of the string of digits And so the S P model which is what they put in between digits I I have not calculated that for that one yet but So they basically their their model for a whole digit string is silence digit SP digit SP blah blah blah and then silence at the end And so Professor A: Are the SP s optional ? I mean skip them ? PhD B: I have to look at that but I m not sure that they are Now the one thing about the S P model is really it only has a single s emitting state to it So if it s not optional you know it s it s not going to hurt a whole lot and it s tied to the center state of the silence model so it s not its own It does not require its own training data it just shares that state So it I mean it s pretty good the way that they have it set up but i So I want to play with that a little bit more I m curious about looking at you know how these models have trained and looking at the expected durations of the models and I want to compare that in the the well matched case f to the unmatched case and see if you can get an idea of just from looking at the durations of these models you know what what s happening Professor A: I mean I think that as much as you can it s good to d sort of not do anything really tricky Not do anything that s really finely tuned but just sort of eh you know you t you i z The premise is kind of you have a a good person look at this for a few weeks and what do you come up with ? PhD B: And Hynek when I wa told him about this he had an interesting point and that was th the the final models that they end up training up have I think probably something on the order of six Gaussians per state So they are fairly you know hefty models And Hynek was saying that well probably in a real application you would not have enough compute to handle models that are very big or complicated So in fact what we may want are simpler models And compare how they perform to that But you know it depends on what the actual application is and it s really hard to know what your limits are in terms of how many Gaussians you can have Professor A: Right And that I mean at the moment that s not the limitation so I mean I I I what I thought you were going to say i but which I was thinking was where did six come from ? Probably came from the same place eighteen came from You know so that s another parameter right ? that that maybe you know you really want three or nine or PhD B: Well one thing I mean if I if if I start reducing the number of states for some of these shorter models that s going to reduce the total number of Gaussians So in a sense it will be a simpler system Professor A: But I think right now again the idea is doing just very simple things how much better can you make it ? And since they are only simple things there s nothing that you are going to do that is going to blow up the amount of computation if you found that nine was better than six that would be O K I think actually Does not have to go down PhD B: I really was not even going to play with that part of the system yet I was just going to change the the t Professor A: just work with the models PhD B: just look at the length of the models and just see what happens",PhD B was conducting an experiment to improve the backend performance of the Aurora recognizer. The goal was recognizing the HTK system by challenging the canonical paradigm. "PhD B: Yes I m playing so I wanted to do this experiment to see what happens if we try to improve the performance of the back end recognizer for the Aurora task and see how that affects things And so I had this I think I sent around last week a this plan I had for an experiment this matrix where I would take the the original the original system So there s the original system trained on the mel cepstral features and then com and then optimize the b HTK system and run that again So look at the difference there and then do the same thing for the ICSI OGI front end Professor A: What which test set was this ? PhD B: This is that I looked at ? I m looking at the Italian right now So as far as I ve gotten is I ve been able to go through from beginning to end the full HTK system for the Italian data and got the same results that that Stephane had So I started looking to and now I m I m sort of lookin at the point where I want to know what should I change in the HTK back end in order to try to to improve it So One of the first things I thought of was the fact that they use the same number of states for all of the models and so I went on line and I found a pronunciation dictionary for Italian digits and just looked at you know the number of phones in each one of the digits you know sort of the canonical way of setting up a an HMM system is that you use three states per phone and so then the the total number of states for a word would just be you know the number of phones times three And so when I did that for the Italian digits I got a number of states ranging on the low end from nine to the high end eighteen Now you have to really add two to that because in HTK there s an initial null and a final null so when they use models that have eighteen states there are really sixteen states They ve got those initial and final null states And so their guess of eighteen states seems to be pretty well matched to the two longest words of the Italian digits the four and five which according to my you know sort of off the cuff calculation should have eighteen states each And so they had sixteen So that s pretty close but for the most of the words are sh much shorter So the majority of them want to have nine states And so theirs are s sort of twice as long So my guess And then if you I I printed out a confusion matrix for the well matched case and it turns out that the longest words are actually the ones that do the best So my guess about what s happening is that you know if you assume a fixed the same amount of training data for each of these digits and a fixed length model for all of them but the actual words for some of them are half as long you really have you know half as much training data for those models Because if you have a long word and you are training it to eighteen states you ve got you know you ve got the same number of Gaussians you ve got to train in each case but for the shorter words you know the total number of frames is actually half as many",PhD B focused on Italian and experimented with the number of states for different words. PhD B thought training for each case may improve performance by accounting for the difference in variance. "Professor A: if you found that nine was better than six that would be O K I think actually Does not have to go down PhD B: I really was not even going to play with that part of the system yet I was just going to change the the t Professor A: just work with the models PhD B: just look at the length of the models and just see what happens","The Professor thought that the experiments were pretty simple, so computational power was not really a problem. He also thought that it would be okay to increase the states from six to nine." "Project Manager: That is it So that was two Now next The budget The b we will sell the t at twenty five Euros And we have only twenty of twelve and a half Euro to make it So now we have to think about what we will make First I want to hear from you what are your experiences with remote controls So Industrial Designer: Big one they are not easy to use I have one set and a remote control when I dropped it it broke So that will not be our goal I think And g big buttons m that is easier to use than I think Not all the small buttons you do not know Project Manager: Is this positive or negative that big buttons ? Industrial Designer: All all small buttons like when you have like a hundred buttons on your remote control you will not know what they are working for Project Manager: What are your experiences ? User Interface: well I think the the the goal of a remote control is that it is it it has an influence on the TV set And that it controls the channels and the the volume And I I I think it is positive if there is a a LED a LED on the corner of the of the remote So that you know it s it still has batteries on it in it And that if you push the button the LED gives a light and and you see that it is working And Project Manager: So and do they always have that ? User Interface: but No no no But I my my experience is that it it it is convenient to have that Project Manager: It is easy to you Marketing: at home we have a TV a video recorder a DVD player and a satellite receiver We have four distinctive remote controls for that That is not really ea easy So it would be nice if we have one for all And we also had a remote control for our radio set But i it it had a lot of buttons on it and you did not know which one was what And it was v not easy to use So we n barely used it Project Manager: so they have too much So next For our own remote control we have to think how do we make it So what ideas do you have for it for the new remote control ? What what does it have to have ?",Industrial Designer suggested that big size devices are hard to use and easily broken while a big button is more useful compared to a hundred small buttons. User Inter face believed that a LED on the remote control device helps the users know the battery usage and the device is working well. Marketing thought it would be convenient if one remote control could control all the devices. All these are accepted by the whole team. "Industrial Designer: The weight Not not too heavy Bustfree That when you drop it it will not break Like some kind of rubber on it Or hard hard plastic buttons not too small something like when you lose your remote control sometimes it happen it between the couch and you can not find it When you push a but a button on the TV then you hear some some sort of bleep And then you hey there there is remote control User Interface: well that is that are good ideas well the LED on the corner that that indicates that it is working If you push a button And looking on the budget not too expensive material So probably plastic or something Marketing: I think it from a marketing point of view it also has to look nice Or you will not sell it And on our website we can see what products we already have And it should work with as many as possible of them Project Manager: This is It has to be compatible with other things Industrial Designer: I have one more idea Just popped up it it will not take a lot of batteries So you do not will not have to change the batteries once a week or once every two weeks Project Manager: No battery use So more ideas ?","Project Manager believed that it could not be heavy. Industrial Designer indicated that fewer and bigger buttons are better and should be bust-free, for instance, rubber could be used on it. Industrial Designer also suggested that when users push a button, they could hear some sort of bleep. User Interface suggested a LED on the corner and not too expensive material like plastic could be used. Marketing added that it should look nice for better sales and should work with as many as possible of existing products listed on their website. Industrial Designer also concluded that it should be battery-saving." "Marketing: Well I am going to tell you something about functional requirements to start with these points next sheet ? at first I tell you something about what people dislike about the current controls because it is a smart thing to exclude those things furthermore it is very important what they do like and what they do use then I tell something about the most important issues So we have to focus on those three thing three things And in the end I will show you our target audience or our target product users customers Well the first findings are that people think most controls are very kind of ug ugly That is seventy five per cent of the current users They do not like it so we might think about fronts in that section They also say that is about I thought it was fifty per cent that more money will be spent on better looking controls So it is very important that you design a a nice looking control the current user uses his machine just about well all of the time for a few functions almost every user uses it d the the control for just ten per cent of its capacity So it is really important to make the the buttons for the common tasks kind of big or kind of flashy Furthermore it is seventy five per cent of the users zaps a lot Thus it might be might be smart to make a a big zapping button or something in the middle so you can reach it with your thumb Right A lot of losers users lose their controls in their in their living room So it might be sensible to make some kind of a button on your television that is your your control beeps or something that you can find this very easily I do not know maybe that is an idea Because it is a big I think fifty per cent of the users loses his its control within the same room Project Manager: It should actually It should actually be loose from the television because it can also be used for other televisions So if you deliver a small clickon device that you can put on your television that bleeps to your remote control everyone can use it Marketing: but what if you lose your clickon device ? Project Manager: No you can click it on your television Marketing: but if someone d somebody else uses it in ano other room or something ? Nee but it it specifically says it is the the control is lost in the same room So Well a beeping device would be Project Manager: Well we will have a look at it Marketing: furthermore the learning time is a problem thirty four thirty four per cent thinks it is it is too too difficult to learn So the the learning curve should be very short for the dumbest people should be able to use it Industrial Designer: I think our user expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote of course Marketing: but people do not read manuals Industrial Designer: I did not read it ? users to add one ? Do you think ? Marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of pick up and use than a manual User Interface: Yes you should You should could take a look at it and and and know how it how it is supposed to work Industrial Designer: alright Because they do not use it ? Alright Project Manager: Well there sh should always be a menu but it c can be very short Marketing: And it should be consistent with consistent with older remotes User Interface: but nobody reads a manual about a remote control I think Industrial Designer: Well maybe for the If you do not recognise a button who d who d who do I call wh when I do not know it ? User Interface: right It sh it should be there the manual But but not to explain how the remote works Only Marketing: And we do not have much time So it is better to put our attention to the the design So you can pick up and use it than I think Project Manager: Well we are a design team we can say to some writer make a manual point Industrial Designer: Is not it part of the of the you Project Manager: Well we will have a look yes ? Marketing: Well that is about twenty per cent I thought But the designer should take it should Wie zeg ik dat ? consider the consequences of using your remote It should be a good in your hand Right this is the most important part we are Like the requirements said we are going to specify of we are going to target a younger audience that is about sixty per cent of the market so it is quite important research shows that they like to have a little LCD screen on their on their zapping device I thought it was the age between sixteen and twenty ninety nine per cent of the people like that So it is very important we should definitely have that in our designs Project Manager: Well with twelve Euro fifty as production cost we can not afford an LCD Industrial Designer: It is going to be expensive Marketing: but they think it is really important So if we want to s If we have a big If we make lots of of the stuff maybe we can buy it very cheap I do not know We have to Industrial Designer: Well we will consider it Project Manager: well it is your your task to look into the costs of those Industrial Designer: We will think abo we will think Marketing: I do not know I do not have any information on that So Industrial Designer: No we will look we will look into that later Alright ? Marketing: Right And another thing is speech recognition They also like that but research is very costly So User Interface: I think that is difficult to realise also Marketing: but it it might be important for the sale Industrial Designer: We have very demanding clients Project Manager: It is not yet a standard development those so User Interface: No and we have customers in multiple countries I think Marketing: Well I do think LCD is more reachable than the speech recognition So we might consider LCD screens Industrial Designer: alright Well we will consider both and and see what what what we can find I think We do not rule them out yet Marketing: Alright I think that is it I think it is sensible to you to take this take these points into the notes Project Manager: Well you I c I can still see your presentation","Marketing presented on functional requirements, found that 75% of users would like to pay more on a remote with a better look and it might be sensible to make a beeping device because 50% of users lost their controls in the room. Marketing also suggested designing a remote that would be easy to pick up and use. Lastly, Marketing suggested targeting a younger group market, and most young people were keen on LCD and speech recognition." "Marketing: furthermore the learning time is a problem thirty four thirty four per cent thinks it is it is too too difficult to learn So the the learning curve should be very short for the dumbest people should be able to use it Industrial Designer: I think our user expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote of course Marketing: but people do not read manuals Industrial Designer: I did not read it ? users to add one ? Do you think ? Marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of pick up and use than a manual User Interface: Yes you should You should could take a look at it and and and know how it how it is supposed to work Industrial Designer: alright Because they do not use it ? Alright Project Manager: Well there sh should always be a menu but it c can be very short Marketing: And it should be consistent with consistent with older remotes User Interface: but nobody reads a manual about a remote control I think Industrial Designer: Well maybe for the If you do not recognise a button who d who d who do I call wh when I do not know it ? User Interface: right It sh it should be there the manual But but not to explain how the remote works Only Marketing: And we do not have much time So it is better to put our attention to the the design So you can pick up and use it than I think Project Manager: Well we are a design team we can say to some writer make a manual point Industrial Designer: Is not it part of the of the you","Project Manager thought the beeping device was not easy to learn but Industrial Marketing thought the design expert should put more time on the ease of use design than a manual because they didn't have much time. While Project Manager mentioned that they were a design team, they could find some writers to make a manual point which could help maintain consistency with the older remote manual for the users." "Industrial Designer: No we will look we will look into that later Alright ? Marketing: Right And another thing is speech recognition They also like that but research is very costly So User Interface: I think that is difficult to realise also Marketing: but it it might be important for the sale Industrial Designer: We have very demanding clients Project Manager: It is not yet a standard development those so User Interface: No and we have customers in multiple countries I think Marketing: Well I do think LCD is more reachable than the speech recognition So we might consider LCD screens Industrial Designer: alright Well we will consider both and and see what what what we can find I think We do not rule them out yet Marketing: Alright I think that is it I think it is sensible to you to take this take these points into the notes",Marketing mentioned that the research found it would be costly for the speech design and suggested considering LCD screens. Industrial Design suggested that they would consider both and see what they could find. The group all agreed on it.pressing the button. "Project Manager: It is in the Well next I do not know who is next Industrial Designer: Shall I give a technical talk ? Well it is my task to explain or to point out a working design We have that here how do you enlarge it so that you can have the Well alright you know who I am and what I do So we have this It is a bit unclear because I wanted to copy paste something It was originally in black and white but it became black and purple But I think you can read it well I think it is important for you to realise the basic function of a remote control well you can see Marketing: Maybe you can select it So it inverts Industrial Designer: And I then can select I can select on the dings It goes to the next page Marketing: the p the whole picture Industrial Designer: Well you can read it it is not too difficult Meanwhile this is a schematic view of how a basic remote control works You have basically the energy the power of the of the remote control and the sender w which is the LED the the the the the the the the the bulb that sends the the infrared beam to the no to the set And the source is of course the user the user interface is the the the buttons of course And the the user interface sends the the different signals of the different buttons to the chip and the chip sends it to the LED and the LED sends it to the receiver That is the that is the basic idea well I have put it in a in in in a a couple of basic steps the remote is basically just waiting for a user to press a key It does nothing until of course the key is pressed The key a signal to a chip the chip senses the connection and recognise the key So well you understand The chip produces Morse code a specific code to indicate that specific button that is pressed of course And it uses transistors in the in the remote control to amplify and to send that signal again to the to the LED which is the bulb of course Now the LED produces an infrared beam and signals the well it is very simple and signals the signals to the sensor on the TV set and the TV set also recognises the the the signal and performs the assigned task Project Manager: So it is also why we have to have a button that says I am now busy with a DVD if we had done that And a button for TV So Industrial Designer: Ah bu but we do not we No no but Exactly well this is the basic function of a remote I have some couple of pictures here It is a very basic one And if we if we are going to add an an LCD screen to it it will not look anything like this but This is very basic basically the the shape of of a remote control It has very little buttons and But it it it is it is quite you can easily recognise the buttons They are far enough apart and an anything It is not very not very hightech indeed and it is not very userfriendly if you look at the shape it is just a simple long box shape So we have to change a little bit to that so that it becomes more userfriendly and that problems like RSI and those kinds of thing do not do not oc do not occur Marketing: Right Can I say something ? I have a table here about the l the relevance of the buttons the power button is used very much channel selection volume and teletext Well teletext is not an option so that But I think it is very important to make the power channel and volume buttons near to the thumb so you can not have RSI consequences Industrial Designer: because they are the the most important buttons and you can immediately Marketing: Right Make them big make them easy to to press Industrial Designer: You do not have to look and and search for them Project Manager: if you have the most used buttons all in one place and you keep making the same well moves User Interface: I was thinking you can Project Manager: But if y if you would put it at a different place then you have to move your hands and that is on of the things about RSI User Interface: Are some of the the the Marketing: that is right That is right That is right Industrial Designer: Well you you can not have any every button under the thumb of course Project Manager: No but the most important buttons m maybe you can just put them a bit apart so you would reject R RSI RSI Marketing: But That is very important And User Interface: Maybe you can make for for channel changing two little buttons on the side of the remote so you can just do like this Like some little Gameboy things or some Project Manager: Yes I have saw that on m on mi mobile telephones they also have those buttons Marketing: But is that is that useable ? Do people when they pick up a remote know that they have to do that ? It is a f it is a new feature you can make make a double feature l like a button on the top and under it Project Manager: Well also i if someone puts picks up his remote User Interface: but if you s say them up and down they they will understand it I think Project Manager: If someone puts up i picks up his remote and he picks up it he he touches the side then he is a already on the next channel That is very irritating I think Industrial Designer: But in e in any case the the basic function should be indeed and as you say at the thumb I think that is a good idea and and that the less important buttons like the the the different channels the numbers one two three four five as well should be well not in reach because they do not use it all the time Well it is pretty pretty basically as you said And I have some pictures of the inside workings but I do not want to get too technical because that is not very useful for you Project Manager: That is your part of the job Industrial Designer: So exactly this is how it looks from the inside And well that is about it I think Oh I still have this Oh I had to delete this but I had to make a schematic of the of the new But I had too too little time but do not do not look at it please I I think it is it is clear how it works Alright That is the most important thing Project Manager: Nice Then Mike can give the third presentation How late is did we start his presentation ? Marketing: I do not know I think w About twenty minutes ago ? Project Manager: Well then we have still the time so But we do have to come to a decision right later on User Interface: Well I thought everybody on the website would see the same thing but obviously that is not the case Marketing: I do not think so Industrial Designer: there are different We have all have different home pages with different links User Interface: For instance you could not see this Well I am Mike User Interface Designer The the method ? Well I used my own experience with remotes took a good l look at the remotes on the corporate website which are these two Marketing: These are already in use ? User Interface: Yes these are from from another manufacturer This one is engineeringcentred so this one has the most functions and things I like usercentr centred also the best Well I thought that we reduce the the option to control the DVD also and teletext and that kind of stuff so I thought we we we would use more or need more buttons than this one Marketing: But we have to reject that because of the requirements ? User Interface: Th that is why this mm is not relevant any more I feel I think this is about the maximum number of buttons we will need I I kind of like the shape I think this is what we talked about But Industrial Designer: You can not really see the differ from different sides User Interface: No I have Well I showed it somewhere Industrial Designer: you can draw it if you User Interface: Oh I think we should go further with the idea of a removable front So we can can customise the Project Manager: Well absolutely but i th they all have to have something about the recognition from our company So we can not just make someone w User Interface: Mm ? It is a front It is not the the whole remote that changes of course Project Manager: No but that is th the side they look look at is the front So if y if you make a a front with just a a tiger on it then our recognition is totally gone User Interface: Or you can you can can put the same symbol on on every remote So l like Ericsson does every Industrial Designer: We can put it on the on the back side Marketing: We can make a symbol of the company right here And if you put a front on it there is a hole on the front So the symbols always on Industrial Designer: so that you do not replace the symbol Project Manager: Or the th the the lowest part of the remote is not changed by the front Marketing: But let us not focus on the front User Interface: Well so like I said I thought we would we would use more function If we we had to include more functions But we do not So I think this is about the maximum number of buttons we need Maybe some less Like eject we do not need and some other buttons we do not need I think Industrial Designer: Mike can you put that picture from me on the in the Word documents file ? In Map ? User Interface: I will I think for the remote less is more The less buttons the better the design We should go with that concept I think Marketing: I have I have got another point there are two target audi audiences and we have chose for the younger one research has shown that it is a high interested in features They are high high interested in feature But they are more critical Fo critical So we must must design a control that really speaks to the people Project Manager: Well what if we I at I at home have a remote that has the most familiar buttons on the top and the bottom side of the front has a little clip a f a little You can click away and then you have f much more functions that most people do not use but s some do do Industrial Designer: Mmhmm I think the most functions underneath that Marketing: Clip are not used much Project Manager: Well but because you say they their features are important they want m a lot User Interface: but what kind of features ? Like LCD screens and voice recognition Marketing: Here look at these numbers The newest features are like I said are LCD and speech control Our audience these people are very like these features You see ? So we must build in something or they will to go to the concurrent The concurrent ? Competitors right So I do think we have to have some features Project Manager: Well maybe w we could s Marketing: Even though they cost a little more Project Manager: On some calculators you have lo those little little LCD th that you can click on or something or that you can click out of the remote And if if that is gives you a little bit of sta status information Marketing: Which programme you are l watching or something Project Manager: Those kind of things because you also have those those program recognition for your V VCRs And well if y if your remote picks that up also you they can display which programme you are currently watching Industrial Designer: So it it just signals the the different sig the different symbols on the screen you have because if you change to s channel two you have two on the screen and two on your on your on your LCD screen Project Manager: For example It it could be such a little th that you can click in and out and you and you have it User Interface: we should keep that simple too Industrial Designer: But should it really be clickable User Interface: No it should be integrated Industrial Designer: or or just integrate inside to try to make it d more trendy Marketing: just at at the top So when you s you sit like this you can can watch I think it should be at the top User Interface: something like on some radios in car You Where it is walking to Marketing: right It is a tickertape idea Industrial Designer: But that is of course a bit more expensive than the basic calculator design with the scrolling text and that kind of thing Project Manager: Well I think it is you got It just means it is a script that is keeps it rolling Marketing: Well it is just one script Project Manager: and it is not That is five minutes off implementing time I think Marketing: five minutes of ja ja for programming So I do not think that is the issue Alright we go with the LCD screen ? Project Manager: well I think so yes User Interface: well we we we still need to know how much that will cost Marketing: Kay Right I do not know if I can find that but Project Manager: We are g No but we are we will have to look into that User Interface: Or maybe you will get that information Project Manager: we can use this board again I think we can put some decisions about the controls we want th the issue Where is my presentation ? Marketing: I understand what you are saying We should have a general idea of how it is going to look Project Manager: Well I mean we are all here now I think These I have already given you So we have to decide on the different remote control functions So we want to have a small LCD screen that is special Industrial Designer: Should not we start with the most important parts ? User Interface: At the top or at the bottom ? Industrial Designer: The LCD screen alright but we should start with the power button ? Marketing: I think the top is more When you s How do you zap ? You just sit in your chair ? User Interface: but with with the LCD screen on the top it gets a bit unnatural Because most remotes have some space left at the bottom Marketing: but that is where your hand ball might be We will draw two and then we will see Industrial Designer: Maybe we should centralise the discussion here I do not know what you were talking about but we are busy with something Marketing: he thinks right He thinks it is better to put the LCD at the bottom and I think it is better at the top Industrial Designer: Uhhuh Why do you think it is better at the bottom ? User Interface: well because most remotes have some space left at the bottom and that way you can keep the shape recognisable for everybody Industrial Designer: But you just can put the the the the the whole interface a bit down so that there is room for the for the interface User Interface: Well I d I think that is that is ugly but Marketing: The the ticker The LCD is like like small It is it is wide It is not not high But Project Manager: Well I th I think Mike Mike has a point because when when when I use a remote I l I hate the buttons but buttons at the at the bottom So and and I I like to use the ones on the top User Interface: y you got to zap like this or you want to Project Manager: So when I you when I have to have an LCD s scr window Marketing: right But We are making a remote with with a few functions you know Industrial Designer: Well that is a bit exaggerated Well I agree with you It is it is also more recognisable It looks more like a calculator to people if you have the l the the the thing on top Project Manager: Yes but we we we we do not want that We do not want them to look like a calculator User Interface: You want it it it must be a remote Project Manager: We want to look it like our original but familiar Industrial Designer: but you do not have to throw important aspe important aspect like familiarity completely away because I think it is Project Manager: Maybe a bic better white We White ? Industrial Designer: I think it is still important to have it at the top Project Manager: Width format format ? Line width ? Width ? Industrial Designer: because it is it is more familiar that way Marketing: Th that is not a problem When I draw here it Project Manager: It is a bit off Industrial Designer: A little a little bit Marketing: It it needs to be calibrated again Well Project Manager: Well let us talk about that later Industrial Designer: Maybe you should another pen Maybe that is better You e you only have one pen for that screen Marketing: Alright we have to make a decision now because we do not have much time I think we have a few functions and we can put the LCD above it and still have lots of room at the bottom where you can put your hand Project Manager: I think it should be at the button bottom Bottom The LCD Industrial Designer: Well I am the I I am the designer so User Interface: Oh oh I totally agree Marketing: So We are two VS two Project Manager: Well but what what if we we first decide the different functions and then look at the design Industrial Designer: we we were busy with that Project Manager: Because we have to decide this Industrial Designer: we should summon the the different aspects of the thing So we have the power button Marketing: And moreover I think that you two should be come to consensus about the LCD s It is your it is your job Project Manager: Well we have a power button Industrial Designer: of course it is W wh User Interface: No it is our job For all of us I think Industrial Designer: While you have to agree I can say it is like this and you must agree Marketing: Alright let us keep it central Project Manager: We have a power button setting buttons LCD window the number buttons User Interface: The ten numbers ? ?","Industrial designer introduced the working design including the energy, LED sender, different user interface, and the chipboard with buttons on it. They could put every button under the thumb with an RSI. Then, the group discussed and decided to have removable fronts, a small centralized LCD screen, and a power button with 10 other setting buttons." "Marketing: These are already in use ? User Interface: Yes these are from from another manufacturer This one is engineeringcentred so this one has the most functions and things I like usercentr centred also the best Well I thought that we reduce the the option to control the DVD also and teletext and that kind of stuff so I thought we we we would use more or need more buttons than this one Marketing: But we have to reject that because of the requirements ? User Interface: Th that is why this mm is not relevant any more I feel I think this is about the maximum number of buttons we will need","Compared with the current manufacturer design, User Interface mentioned that they should reduce the option to control the DVD. And according to the new requirements, they need to control the maximum number of buttons within ten." "Project Manager: Well I mean we are all here now I think These I have already given you So we have to decide on the different remote control functions So we want to have a small LCD screen that is special Industrial Designer: Should not we start with the most important parts ? User Interface: At the top or at the bottom ? Industrial Designer: The LCD screen alright but we should start with the power button ? Marketing: I think the top is more When you s How do you zap ? You just sit in your chair ? User Interface: but with with the LCD screen on the top it gets a bit unnatural Because most remotes have some space left at the bottom Marketing: but that is where your hand ball might be We will draw two and then we will see Industrial Designer: Maybe we should centralise the discussion here I do not know what you were talking about but we are busy with something Marketing: he thinks right He thinks it is better to put the LCD at the bottom and I think it is better at the top Industrial Designer: Uhhuh Why do you think it is better at the bottom ? User Interface: well because most remotes have some space left at the bottom and that way you can keep the shape recognisable for everybody Industrial Designer: But you just can put the the the the the whole interface a bit down so that there is room for the for the interface User Interface: Well I d I think that is that is ugly but Marketing: The the ticker The LCD is like like small It is it is wide It is not not high But Project Manager: Well I th I think Mike Mike has a point because when when when I use a remote I l I hate the buttons but buttons at the at the bottom So and and I I like to use the ones on the top User Interface: y you got to zap like this or you want to Project Manager: So when I you when I have to have an LCD s scr window Marketing: right But We are making a remote with with a few functions you know Industrial Designer: Well that is a bit exaggerated Well I agree with you It is it is also more recognisable","Marketing suggested putting a small LCD screen on top of the remote but Industrial Designer against it because a remote should be started with the power button and User Interface thought it would be unnatural to put the LCD on the top. Then, Marketing mentioned that would be where users' handball might be. So Industrial Designer thought they could put the whole interface a bit down so there would be room for the interface."