Tom: Yeah, so get the six files; some of them are quite long but basically just goes around the UCC codes on what they say the creditor needs to do to recover from the debtor, but Patrick can read very well between the lines and so he may be able to essentially use some of that logic--but in the private. And he said he has done that several times, he has taken things that they do in the public and translated them to the equivalent in the private. And I wonder if there is something like replevin in the private, which is a more complex way of a creditor getting things back from the debtor, he has to go through intermediaries to do that.
Caller: Do you know what trover is? TROVER? 
Tom: Yes, I think it is based on French "to find". 
Caller: it is a conversion; say you break up a bunch of firewood or something and you make it into a pile and you claim that out of the public that which was laying there abandoned, so the first person that comes along has a claim to it, now somebody else comes along and says "hey, there's firewood, I am going to take it home", so they take it and haul it off to their house, now you have just committed a trover, because it is an unlawful conversion turning someone else's claim into his, and there was a lawsuit that was went over yesterday on a different call and it went into this in pretty extensive detail: it was about 1871 case and the guy was raking up horse manure, and the court decided that originally the manure had belonged to the owner of the horses so because it was laying abandoned, the county or the city had first claim, and since nobody there wanted to claim the manure the guy told his servant to go up there and rake it into piles and some other guy came along and took and hauled it off. Now what ended up happening was he went all the way up to the supreme court--or to the appeals, and the appellate court said "no, you have created a trover, you did not rake it up in the piles yourself, somebody had the intent to haul it away", but the defendant did not know that, so they remanded it and gave him a new case where the plaintiff is suing the defendant for not paying for the manure that he spent the energy in raking it up into piles so that is basically with trover but what it does is it completely glosses over and forget all about the original owner which was the people who owned the horses, so in the way that it applies to the BC is: your mom is a horse and she went into the hospital and left some abandoned stuff and then a bunch of people came around and made claim to that and turned it into this big valuable thing only no mother would ever leave--no father--nobody would ever leave anything like that behind if they knew that it was the source of all the slavery and everything. So the idea is if people go into the hospital and give birth and they say "oh no, I am taking that with me, everything I came in here with I am leaving with and don't dissect it, measure it, weigh it, nothing, and there will not be any paper attached to anyone", so I think that would be the action that you are looking for, action in trover, a dispute over who owns what.
Tom: Yes, that brings a different aspect to it and that's not in what Patrick posted, what Patrick posted is basically creditor/debtor and intermediaries. Yes, you are right on the definition of the word trover as you spelled it and it is the French verb for "to find" so it means the first guy found it and then it becomes his because of what he found. Bring that up when Patrick goes over the trover concept. Because that concept is certainly not included in the ucc stuff brought up but it does sort of follow logically, because I looked up the word on google, the concept of trover as you explained it is an old common law practice. What call was this you heard it on?
Caller: It was Tuesday night calls with Kurt Kallenbach. He is going to spend the next couple of weeks on that case talking about in detail his theory about what happened because he is not trying to cash in anything he is just trying to be left alone. 

Tom: So was he talking about anything related to what we were doing?
Caller: I don't know, I missed Sunday's call so I don't know what the procedure is at this time. But he will not believe in any forms or anything, he writes his own paperwork and uses that instead of any form.
Another caller: So the case went all the way to the supreme court?
Caller: Yeah, I was just amazed at the case about horse manure went all the way to the supreme court. Tom: He said it was an 1871 case. Caller: I think a lot of these cases are set up; they create the scenario to get the judgment and set the precedent; like I said, the original owners were completely left out of it. I mean if those people who owned the horses came back and said "oh wait no I forgot to collect the horse poop" and each owner of the horse will be able to take one piece out of the pile, take a little nugget and go home with it. The case started after the abandonment of the manure. So I guess if you are a farmer and you are growing your own food, that kind of stuff will have some kind of value. I mean it is easier just to scoop it off the street than it is to go down to the hardware store and pay 50 cents for a wagon full.
Patrick: This is pat, I am on the line now. I posted some documents up on the site there about replevin and basically the others--civil action court case of claim and distribution or whatever it was, I forget what I had there. Claim and delivery. OK? And basically a lot out here is: we are still looking in the republic system of government that basically the trustees would have been the SoS and the AG and the treasurer of the state and basically with that CoLB and with our other state documents like Selective Service and even the Social Security account: that SS number is basically attached to the state also in a way: that first 3 digits of the number basically can be tracked down to the state where they were issued from. And basically what I am also looking at is a breach of trust or breach of fiduciary duty by trustee in the process, that we would be able to sue out the SoS, the AG's office and the Treasurer of the state in this court action. So that is why I posted some of those things up there, I am still looking at some of the process here because we know that basically all of these corporations had to have money to operate and basically whose money is it, whose assets is it, whose collateral is it that basically is being used or has been used in the process? It is ours it is we the people's assets. Now did we give them full authorization for this? No, we could not because we never had full disclosure so we could never have given them full authorization to do what they are doing. OK? So that is a breach of trust, an abuse of trust also. So this is still a work in progress scenario here that we are trying to work on but the only way that we are going to be able to get this thing going is to have people go out there and continually push these items and hit these guys up on it and hold them accountable even like all the IGs. OK?  
Basically they all have about identity theft, and our surety is our namesake but it is an identity theft in our namesake. OK? They have taken our identity, trying to claim that we are the surety, and that is identity theft of the living in the process. So like I said, this is still--this is an ongoing evolution, basically we will have something work for a little bit but then basically if we do not keep the pressure on it will subside and basically these guys will go to the government and try and weasel their way out of it and that is what basically in some cases some of these public utilities and stuff are trying to do with their backstabbing son-of-a-bitching lawyers in the process even though we have to use some of these guys, we have to hold them accountable too, we have to force their hands. And basically that is the only way that you can get anything out of an attorney is to hold them fully accountable in the process. 
The Secret Service is supposed to be over all counterfeiting, well right now we are in one of the biggest counterfeiting organizations out here in that basically 1 silver dollar equals 19 Federal Reserve dollars. That means that basically when you get one FR dollar you are getting essentially about 5 cents of silver. Where is the other 95 cents going? It is being held in our damn accounts. OK? We are not getting the benefit of it, we are only getting 5 cents of it and that is  basically counterfeiting the money system and depriving the people. This is all taking place since the 1970s. Early 1970s is when they also placed all of the military bounty assets and entitlements into the SSA. Tied in with the FR bankers. So that is basically--I am working on a lot  of this stuff so I really do not have too much more to say so the rest of tonight you guys talk it over yourself. I am going to leave now and basically you guys continue on.
Caller: Patrick, have you looked at the alien property custodian?
Patrick: Yes I have looked at the alien property custodian. The APC, that whole scenario is for Cuba--for foreign countries. We are not aliens, OK? We are Americans; we want our damn American property returned to us. That is simple bottom-line and basically it was placed into the republic now let's go after the damn government officials that were supposed to be operating in the republic out here but we have not enforced them to operate in the republic.
Another caller: I have a question on the different roles of the different treasurers we have out here: there is the county level treasurer, state level treasurer, regional or federal, also there is a treasurer in Puerto Rico. What is the role of the Treasurer of Puerto Rico? I heard that is supposed to be the real treasurer of the united states.
Patrick: For the United States corporation. OK? For the copyrighted united states. OK? The one that is associated with the Social Security system. And that is the one in Puerto Rico? Yes, offshore because basically most of these accounts are being held in a mortmain account and basically mortmain accounts are not to be held on mainland continental us of a republic land because the statutes at large forbids it but PR is a territory and it is not under the statutory laws of the constitution. I have said this before. But then which one are we sending the SF CoLB package out to? Which Treasurer? We are going to the state, our republic state treasurer that basically that CoLB came from. That is the trustee that was supposed to be accountable, one of the three trustees that was supposed to be accountable for the treasury assets coming over to the republic state in the name of the republic state citizen. OK? OK, you guys talk it over, I am leaving.
Caller: I just want to say that the reason I mentioned the APC is because of title 8 which outlines how you get a citizenship, who is a citizen, how you naturalize in united states, you know born united states, all that stuff, and they never mention anything about the people or whatever, but they do refer to a nonresident alien, so a nonresident alien, I presume, is the people who are not united states citizens but were born on land, you know back of a Volkswagen or whatever--I don't know, that is just my thoughts.
Caller: I actually have a question on the closure checks; the new one looks like... how many different overlays are there because it seems like the new one is for closing out or liquidating the CoLB or the SS accounts. Do we use that in replacement to the one that used to be printed out in red on the econcurrent website? I am just asking because I am not sure...
Tom: Yes, we have 2 different accounts, the examples one of them was for SS the other was for CoLB and the examples also had one for liquidation and one for partial payment, and I presume you could do partial payment on both accounts and you could do liquidation on both accounts.
Caller: I would rather do the liquidation and just get it done with.
Tom: I think I am going to do both because it is possible that getting a partial payment may be quicker than getting full liquidation.
Caller: So do you send two different packages or do you send 2 closure checks? That is a question to you, Tom.
Tom: I am wondering from the language that I saw on the definitions of the coupon, coupons are detachable, well so are allonges; allonges are pieces of paper that you attach to something, so that would seem... you could also write the check on a separate piece of paper and then tape it or staple it to the CoLB.
Caller: So you write two checks and send them in the same package? Tom: I would probably send them in separate packages; they are for separate purposes, do not allow them to get things mixed up.
Caller: Once you are successful, are you supposed to get that green debit card? 
Tom:  Well that is what it says on there.
Caller: OK, and then you can use this debit card to discharge or set off your utility bills?
Tom: There should be enough funds there to do everything; you could do that through the online payment system.
Caller: Now when would they send you that debit card from the time that they received your SF package?
Tom: Well, we will have to find out, you know I doubt they have it published anywhere?
You can also tell them to put it on your direct express card, which I do have one.
Caller: Now if you are going to use a direct express card, if you are going to call them up and get one, should you use your FGT EIN that you got? Tom: No, we have had people call up and say "I want a direct express card" which is based on your SSN, and they don't ask what federal benefits you receive, but you do say "I expect to receive federal benefits" and you will get a card; however, the Direct Express card is with a commercial bank and the treasury card would be with the republic bank. Caller: Has anybody gotten a debit card that can elaborate on their experience? 
Tom: We have heard plenty of stories of people having black cards but I have not talked to Bill Gates about that recently. You will probably have to talk to people on that level, as they are the only ones who have it.
Caller: I have an agreement to purchase a home, I want to know if there is any possible remedies to purchase a home with a bill of exchange using the BC and the estate? 
Tom: Well, if you do one for partial payment and get some funds, you can use those funds to purchase a home then. We had tried ways of getting the invoice and turning it into a bill of credit, but that has not functioned. So do you know any remedies of purchasing a home? 
Tom: I think I just mentioned one. 
Another caller: One think that I think you should look at is Title 12 412. Read that. 
Caller asks: I wanted to know how would you set off the debt for a court case? Would you fill out the form SF30 and check off solicitation? 
Tom: Yes because a court case is a solicitation, and when working on that it is not only to settle off a court case in progress but to get people out of prison as a result of a court case that went wrong, and we are not at the final conclusion of that yet. What other forms would you fill out for that process? The 1414? Yes the 1414, just say that my stolen identity is the surety and you would pay whatever the charges are out of the 1418 performance bond. What is hard is to try and get them to tell you what the actual financial charges are.
Caller: Now how can I do that because I have tried asking the guardian that ??? they appointed me, for the CUSIP numbers and for the financial statements and he seems to not be getting it for me, and I put him on a form 56 as a fiduciary trustee and I put in an affidavit that is notarized making him my trustee, but he still won't perform.
Tom: Patrick has been recommending that what we do is we get a public defender and we tell him to fill out the SF forms. He can fill out the performance bond to get his payment. 
Caller: OK, I will try that but these guys will not do anything for me. 
Tom: Yeah, I think at one point it looked like I was going to be able to talk to a paralegal who has been working with a number of lawyers and have been following the kind of things that we are talking about. 
Caller: Now would I be able to request the same thing from a bond agent, like a bail bondsman to fill out the forms for me? 
Tom: Well, they should know how, whether they want to do it--whether they find that you are actually competing with them for business--that might be another issue, but yes that could be a person to ask. Give them a commission out of the performance bond. Then if that works, report back to us. Well, it is good to know that Patrick is working hard at this, he sees the problem and I think he feels he has the tools to go at it; anything we could add I am sure he would appreciate it, so we have to keep thinking about ourselves too.
Caller had a question on the 1099 OIDs. 
Tom: Nope, that is for the financial institutions to do, you have not had the authority to do that, that is what we have been finding out. 
Another caller: What about the 1099As? 
Tom: Same.
The SF forms are much more to the point, you are actually dealing with the actual contract--the UCC contract trust. 
Caller: now did Patrick ever get his car from the dealer? 
Tom: Yes, but what he is trying to do is to get his refund. He bought a car based on getting $70k from the SSA, and then he is trying to get a refund for it.  
Caller: OK, so he got the money from a SS refund... or is he paying out of his pocket first and then getting the refund? Tom: He paid out from the money he got from SS, unless you have heard different; is the story different? Someone heard that is not how he did it... 
Caller: Has anybody been successful using bills of credit to pay for things? 
Tom: I think Robbi Thomas down in Atlanta--there has been some small successes with them, but this could also be we got some small successes for people who did not know what they were doing and it cannot be replicated. 
Caller: So how long does the process take from the time you turn in your SF package until they give you the debit card, is it like a week, a month? We do not know because we have no reports of one that has worked. Oh, I thought somebody said there has been successes? There have been some very small successes, if you look at the calls about 2 or 3 weeks ago, I have been taking the calls and putting a few words as the subject of discussion on the calls and there is one in there that says Some Successes, and that is where Robbi explained what she was doing. OK, so right now when we are sending off the SF packages with the DL and the passport, we are only dong the 1414 for the SS numbers and the passport and the DL?  
Tom: Right now, it can only be for the DL or the passport; we were going to use the estate EIN but he decided that is not right. Well, you could use a DL or a state ID.
Caller: OK, what if I voluntarily cancelled my DL 2 years ago, can I still use the number? 
Tom: I would try it. Just the fact that you cancelled it and turned it back in does not mean they completed the process you want which is to liquidate everything and turn it over to you. Tom: Do everything thoroughly, do not let any implications just hang there. Caller: On the skype group we were discussing that we would no longer do the SF30s and 1416s/1418s for the DLs, the EINs, and the passport; is that true? 
Tom: I did not see that; even if it was said, I have never heard Patrick say anything like that.
Caller: Because from what I have seen of various examples of different people doing the process... Let me clarify and get this process straight: for the package that is going out to the US treasury for your state (state treasury), you are going to be sending out the 926 from the IRS, the form 30,1414,1416,1418 for the CoLB, you are going to include a certified copy of the CoLB with the overlay coupon on the back printed on it or on a separate piece of paper, then you are going to get a photocopy of the SS card and then you are going to put this overlay on the back as well. 
Tom: No, from what I remember he said just include a copy of the SS card, do not turn it into a check. I don't think the 926 form has been mentioned in a long time. Caller: but the 926 is transferring it into a foreign estate, is that not what you want to do? 
Tom: Transfer of deed? 
Caller: Transfer of account I think it was. Like when you liquidate your CoLB and everything else you are going to move it over. 
Tom: that is not the latest package that Patrick sent in because he adds a cover letter and he shows the attachments and that is no longer in the package. 
Caller: Yeah, it would be kind of helpful if there was a flow chart, I mean I have tried to draft a flow chart but I'm still trying to nail the process in order to draft the flow chart. 
Tom: You are going to have to draft a flow chart and every call update it. You cannot draft a flow chart 4 months ago and expect it to stay the same.
Caller: I am still trying to nail the process down here. And also, I was thinking about doing the process for my minor children, you know a separate package because per Minnesota rule 220, if you look it up, it says that whoever's name is on that certificate is the owner, so I have done an affidavit claiming as owner to the BC for my children, quoting Minnesota rule 220, and I have also had the BC authenticated all the way up through the state SoS and John Kerry SoS. 
Tom: and therefore invalidated it so that it cannot be used. 
Caller: OK, well I went and got some new BCs, that was a past issue that was before I heard about Patrick’s methods, I did this earlier this year--authenticating it. 
Tom: You need to look at the method that the guys in the skype group are working on that the man and the wife should come in with the wife coming in as being protected by the husband, so all the children should be included under the husband's estate. Caller: What if I was not married? I do not have a marriage license. 
Tom: Obviously Patrick would say you would need to do it under your father's name then. 
Caller: What if my father passed away when I was a child? 
Tom: you probably still need to do it under his name. 
Caller: and then somebody mentioned there is an admiralty right document, I tried looking for it but I could not find it.  
Tom: it has been quite a while since we talked about admiralty. 
Caller: So we do not use that anymore? 
Tom: We may end up using that if we have to go into court, the nice thing about admiralty is that when you come in in admiralty, your opposition has lost all their immunity. 
Caller: OK, that would definitely come in handy. 
Another caller: Your baptismal certificate was what he was referencing when he came to the admiralty. 
Tom: Yes, because that puts you in the jurisdiction of the sea. 
Another caller: There was one lady that was waiting on a call from the SSA about her request for an increase in her payments. 
Tom: We never heard back. Yeah we have got to answer this "anybody have successes?" by going out and getting them ourselves, and I think Patrick is right, we just have to keep banging away at them until they see this groundswell...