And you 'll see a lot of this unfold this week both in Europe when Secretary Rice meets with her counterparts on Wednesday at the GA summit in St. Petersburgh At the end of the week when the president is there /.

And you 'll see a lot of this unfold <date>this week</date> both in <loc>Europe</loc> when Secretary <person>Rice</person> meets with her counterparts on <date>Wednesday</date> at the GA summit in <gpe>St. Petersburgh</gpe> At <date>the end of the week</date> when the president is there /.


the Iranians are going to have to choose /.

the <norp>Iranians</norp> are going to have to choose /.


Negotiations with us after they suspend their nuclear programs or further action in the Security Council /.

Negotiations with us after they suspend their nuclear programs or further action in <org>the Security Council</org> /.


So I do n't think either of these countries is on the offensive /.


Frankly I think both of these countries are rather cornered and isolated /.


There are very few countries defending them /.


and they 're running out of options /.


So we think this policy of patient diplomacy and of crafting multilateral coalitions to tighten the pressure around them is going to work /.


And it 's the right way to go clearly for the United States /.

And it 's the right way to go clearly for <gpe>the United States</gpe> /.


we want to exhaust diplomatic means before we consider other means /.


Based on our experience in Iraq particularly with our emphasis on the weapons of mass destruction that did not materialize John Deutch the former head of the CIA offered this observation /.

Based on our experience in <gpe>Iraq</gpe> particularly with our emphasis on the weapons of mass destruction that did not materialize <person>John Deutch</person> the former head of the <org>CIA</org> offered this observation /.


the next time military intervention is judged necessary to combat the spread of weapons of mass destruction for example North Korea there will be skepticism about the quality of our intelligence /.

the next time military intervention is judged necessary to combat the spread of weapons of mass destruction for example <gpe>North Korea</gpe> there will be skepticism about the quality of our intelligence /.


Do you agree with that /?


I do n't /.


not in the case of North Korea not in the case of Iran /.

not in the case of <gpe>North Korea</gpe> not in the case of <gpe>Iran</gpe> /.


Tim I 've been to Europe twenty times over the last fourteen months to talk to the Europeans and the Russians and Chinese about Iran for instance /.

<person>Tim</person> I 've been to <loc>Europe</loc> <cardinal>twenty</cardinal> times over <date>the last fourteen months</date> to talk to the <norp>Europeans</norp> and the <norp>Russians</norp> and <norp>Chinese</norp> about <gpe>Iran</gpe> for instance /.


There 's not a single person at the higher levels of those government who does n't believe Iran is trying to create a nuclear weapons capability /.

There 's not a single person at the higher levels of those government who does n't believe <gpe>Iran</gpe> is trying to create a nuclear weapons capability /.


There is n't a single person in the governments of China or Russia or South Korea or Japan who does n't believe that North Korea is bent on building up its nuclear capability /.

There is n't a single person in the governments of <gpe>China</gpe> or <gpe>Russia</gpe> or <gpe>South Korea</gpe> or <gpe>Japan</gpe> who does n't believe that <gpe>North Korea</gpe> is bent on building up its nuclear capability /.


There is no argument in the real world today about what these two countries Iran and North Korea are trying to do /.

There is no argument in the real world <date>today</date> about what these <cardinal>two</cardinal> countries <gpe>Iran</gpe> and <gpe>North Korea</gpe> are trying to do /.


There is no argument remotely similar to what we went through in two thousand and two and three with our European allies over Iraq /.

There is no argument remotely similar to what we went through in <date>two thousand and two and three</date> with our <norp>European</norp> allies over <gpe>Iraq</gpe> /.


In fact we are now tightly knit up with these countries /.


And if you look at what the French German and British governments are saying as well as the Russian and Chinese governments about whether or not these countries are intending to create a nuclear weapons capability they agree with our assessment /.

And if you look at what the <norp>French</norp> <norp>German</norp> and <norp>British</norp> governments are saying as well as the <norp>Russian</norp> and <norp>Chinese</norp> governments about whether or not these countries are intending to create a nuclear weapons capability they agree with our assessment /.


So I do n't agree at all that we 're somehow limited in what we can do and limited in our effectiveness because of the disagreements that we had over WMD in Iraq /.

So I do n't agree at all that we 're somehow limited in what we can do and limited in our effectiveness because of the disagreements that we had over WMD in <gpe>Iraq</gpe> /.


Let me conclude with comments by Bill Crystal the editor of Weekly Standard /.

Let me conclude with comments by <person>Bill Crystal</person> the editor of <org>Weekly Standard</org> /.


he used to work for Vice President Dan Quail /.

he used to work for Vice President <person>Dan Quail</person> /.


North Korea is firing missiles /.

<gpe>North Korea</gpe> is firing missiles /.


Iran is going nuclear /.


Somalia is controlled by radical Islamists /.

<gpe>Somalia</gpe> is controlled by radical <norp>Islamists</norp> /.


Iraq is n't getting better /.

<gpe>Iraq</gpe> is n't getting better /.


and Afghanistan is getting worse /.

and <gpe>Afghanistan</gpe> is getting worse /.


I give the President a lot of credit for hanging tough on Iraq /.

I give the President a lot of credit for hanging tough on <gpe>Iraq</gpe> /.


but I am worried that it has made them too passive in confronting the other threats /.


Have a preoccupation with Iraq allowed North Korea and Iran to go forward with their nuclear programs and limited our options /?

Have a preoccupation with <gpe>Iraq</gpe> allowed <gpe>North Korea</gpe> and <gpe>Iran</gpe> to go forward with their nuclear programs and limited our options /?


Well I strongly disagree with that criticism from Bill Crystal /.

Well I strongly disagree with that criticism from <person>Bill Crystal</person> /.


And I disagree for one reason /.

And I disagree for <cardinal>one</cardinal> reason /.


We have a very strong and active government /.


from the Pentagon from the State Department the White House Treasury we are focused on all these problems /.

from the <org>Pentagon</org> from <org>the State Department</org> <org>the White House</org> <org>Treasury</org> we are focused on all these problems /.


We created over the last fifteen months a major international coalition to corner the Iranian government And to isolate them /.

We created over <date>the last fifteen months</date> a major international coalition to corner the <norp>Iranian</norp> government And to isolate them /.


And that 's been a diplomatic success over the last several months /.

And that 's been a diplomatic success over <date>the last several months</date> /.


We 've now got this six party talk framework we hope coming back together /.

We 've now got this <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talk framework we hope coming back together /.


and certainly the five countries are united /.

and certainly the <cardinal>five</cardinal> countries are united /.


Uh Secretary Rumsfeld was in Afghanistan this morning /.

Uh Secretary <person>Rumsfeld</person> was in <gpe>Afghanistan</gpe> <time>this morning</time> /.


and Secretary Rice was there ten days ago /.

and Secretary <person>Rice</person> was there <date>ten days ago</date> /.


and we 're giving that government president government all the support it can get /.


We are a government that can operate /.


and we have to operate in every part of the world /.


We 're a global superpower /.


We have tremendous resources at our disposal /.


and frankly we 've got a first class military and a first class diplomatic effort /.


and we can certainly take on all these issues and be successful simultaneously /.


And we will be watching /.


Ambassador Nicholas Burns we thank you for sharing your views /.

Ambassador <person>Nicholas Burns</person> we thank you for sharing your views /.


Thanks Tim /.


Coming next the view of three former Clinton Administration officials who spent years dealing with the North Korea problem former Assistant Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter chief State Department negotiator now at the Georgetown University Robert Gallucci And former US ambassador to the UN now Governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson /.

Coming next the view of <cardinal>three</cardinal> former <person>Clinton</person> Administration officials who spent years dealing with the <gpe>North Korea</gpe> problem former Assistant Secretary of <org>Defense</org> <person>Ashton Carter</person> chief <org>State Department</org> negotiator now at <org>the Georgetown University</org> <person>Robert Gallucci</person> And former <gpe>US</gpe> ambassador to the <org>UN</org> now Governor of <gpe>New Mexico</gpe> <person>Bill Richardson</person> /.


They are all right here next only on Meet The Press /.

They are all right here next only on <work_of_art>Meet The Press</work_of_art> /.


And we are back /.


Welcome all /.


Governor Richardson should the United States negotiate directly one on one with North Korea /?

Governor <person>Richardson</person> should <gpe>the United States</gpe> negotiate directly <cardinal>one</cardinal> on <cardinal>one</cardinal> with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /?


Yes it should /.


Uh our policy so far is not working /.


Uh what you have is North Korea has quadrupled its enriched plutonium since two thousand and two /.

Uh what you have is <gpe>North Korea</gpe> has quadrupled its enriched plutonium since <date>two thousand and two</date> /.


Uh the six party talks are going nowhere /.

Uh the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks are going nowhere /.


We should talk directly to the North Koreans to discuss what is next /.

We should talk directly to <norp>the North Koreans</norp> to discuss what is next /.


They need to dismantle their nuclear weapons /.


they need to destroy their missile capability /.


The only way to do that in my judgment is face to face talks at a level of Christopher Hill /.

The only way to do that in my judgment is face to face talks at a level of <person>Christopher Hill</person> /.


He is a competent diplomat /.


Uh the successes we 've had with the North Koreans have been through direct engagement When I got some pilots out of North Korea When Bob Gallucci negotiated the agreed framework /.

Uh the successes we 've had with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> have been through direct engagement When I got some pilots out of <gpe>North Korea</gpe> When <person>Bob Gallucci</person> negotiated the agreed framework /.


Secretary Albright close to having an agreement on reducing or terminating their missiles /.

Secretary <person>Albright</person> close to having an agreement on reducing or terminating their missiles /.


What North Korea is seeing right now is Iran getting a nuclear reactor /.

What <gpe>North Korea</gpe> is seeing right now is <gpe>Iran</gpe> getting a nuclear reactor /.


They see Iran getting a nuclear fuel cycle that is assured economic incentives /.

They see <gpe>Iran</gpe> getting a nuclear fuel cycle that is assured economic incentives /.


On the other hand what they want to see is treated with respect direct talks with the United States /.

On the other hand what they want to see is treated with respect direct talks with <gpe>the United States</gpe> /.


But also they want to see an effort by the United States to give them the recognition that they feel they deserve /.

But also they want to see an effort by <gpe>the United States</gpe> to give them the recognition that they feel they deserve /.


I do n't believe they do /.


They are a desolate isolated regime /.


But right now our policy is not working /.


It makes sense to talk directly with North Korea /.

It makes sense to talk directly with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


But would n't the world then say oh I see /.


you test a missile on the fourth of July /.

you test a missile on <date>the fourth of July</date> /.


you get the US attention /.


and you bring them to the bargaining table /.


Our policy right now does not work /.


Look where we are right now /.


Uh Asia is destabilized /.


We are trying to outsource our foreign policy to China /.

We are trying to outsource our foreign policy to <gpe>China</gpe> /.


I believe China is not necessarily interested in helping us on North Korea /.

I believe <gpe>China</gpe> is not necessarily interested in helping us on <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


They do n't want to see a bunch of refugees go into their country /.


I believe that China is a competitor /.

I believe that <gpe>China</gpe> is a competitor /.


They control a lot of our debt /.


Right now we do not have leverage over China /.

Right now we do not have leverage over <gpe>China</gpe> /.


The best effort in my judgment is face to face talks /.


Hard negotiating /.


Get that agreement that was uh signed in September that North Korea has not abided to /.

Get that agreement that was uh signed in <date>September</date> that <gpe>North Korea</gpe> has not abided to /.


A time table for North Korea to dismantle its nuclear weapons /.

A time table for <gpe>North Korea</gpe> to dismantle its nuclear weapons /.


Efforts to set up bench marks in exchange for that armistice agreement where we do n't attack North Korea /.

Efforts to set up bench marks in exchange for that armistice agreement where we do n't attack <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


They get economic assistance /.


But our objective should be firm /.


To get them to dismantle their nuclear weapons /.


The best way to do it is face to face talks /.


If the President now changed his course wo n't the headlines be Bush blinks /?

If the President now changed his course wo n't the headlines be <person>Bush</person> blinks /?


No /.


I believe the headlines would be Bush deals realistically with North Korea /.

I believe the headlines would be <person>Bush</person> deals realistically with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


He reverses a policy that is not working /.


Ambassador Gallucci do you agree with that /?

Ambassador <person>Gallucci</person> do you agree with that /?


Just about entirely /.


uh I have nothing against the idea of the six party talks something Nick pounded on /.

uh I have nothing against the idea of the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks something <person>Nick</person> pounded on /.


Uh uh the virtue of having all these parties in Asia engaged that 's /-

Uh uh the virtue of having all these parties in <loc>Asia</loc> engaged that 's /-


it 's true /.


it is their problem as well as ours /.


But the fact is it has n't worked /.


And to make the form more important than a substance To care more about whether we have six parties meeting together than whether we stop the accumulation of plutonium is absurd in my view /.

And to make the form more important than a substance To care more about whether we have <cardinal>six</cardinal> parties meeting together than whether we stop the accumulation of plutonium is absurd in my view /.


You 'd have some conditions /.


you had said prior to the missile test that if they took that missile off the launch pad you 'd negotiate face to face /.


Now that they 've launched it would you have any conditions before you went back to the table one on one /?

Now that they 've launched it would you have any conditions before you went back to the table <cardinal>one</cardinal> on <cardinal>one</cardinal> /?


This is kind of a rule I think that you really try hard not to negotiate with a gun or missile to your head /.


And I think a decent interval now and some work at the United Nations is the appropriate thing to do /.

And I think a decent interval now and some work at <org>the United Nations</org> is the appropriate thing to do /.


But I think we 're taking a view from thirty thousand feet right now /.

But I think we 're taking a view from <quantity>thirty thousand feet</quantity> right now /.


what should the administration do /?


It needs to find a way to get back to the negotiating table /.


And the fact that you may get a headline like the President is reversing course as indeed we have in the case of Iran that 's not so bad if you find you 're on the wrong course /.

And the fact that you may get a headline like the President is reversing course as indeed we have in the case of <gpe>Iran</gpe> that 's not so bad if you find you 're on the wrong course /.


and we have been /.


Ashton Carter do you agree there should be one on one direct negotiations between North Korea and the US /?

<person>Ashton Carter</person> do you agree there should be <cardinal>one</cardinal> on <cardinal>one</cardinal> direct negotiations between <gpe>North Korea</gpe> and the <gpe>US</gpe> /?


No I actually think the six party talks is a perfectly appropriate forum including for us to speak directly to the North Koreans if others are at the table /.

No I actually think the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks is a perfectly appropriate forum including for us to speak directly to <norp>the North Koreans</norp> if others are at the table /.


Let 's go back to the logic of the six party talks in the first place /.

Let 's go back to the logic of the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks in the <ordinal>first</ordinal> place /.


The reason to have everybody at the table with the North Koreans is not only that they have a stake in the outcome as well but uh in dealing with North Korea diplomacy has to have a coercive dimension /.

The reason to have everybody at the table with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> is not only that they have a stake in the outcome as well but uh in dealing with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> diplomacy has to have a coercive dimension /.


And we do n't trade with North Korea /.

And we do n't trade with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


we do n't recognize North Korea diplomatically /.

we do n't recognize <gpe>North Korea</gpe> diplomatically /.


uh there 's almost nothing we can do short of military action to apply pressure to North Korea /.

uh there 's almost nothing we can do short of military action to apply pressure to <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


We 're capable of military action /.


and it 's important that that be an ingredient of course in diplomacy /.


But the real levers on Kim Jong - Il are the Chinese and the South Koreans /.

But the real levers on <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> are the <norp>Chinese</norp> and <norp>the South Koreans</norp> /.


It is they who essentially support the regime economically and politically /.


But makes sense to have them at the table /.


The six party talks I totally agree with my colleagues here have produced nothing so far except a quadrupling of the amount of plutonium as ambassador Richardson said um in North Korean hands and now missile launches /.

The <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks I totally agree with my colleagues here have produced nothing so far except a quadrupling of the amount of plutonium as ambassador <person>Richardson</person> said um in <norp>North Korean</norp> hands and now missile launches /.


So they 've been running wild for three years or so /.

So they 've been running wild for <date>three years or so</date> /.


Um the reason for that /-


there 's a lot of blame to go around /.


you have to start with the North Koreans and their own intransigence /.

you have to start with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> and their own intransigence /.


The Chinese and the South Koreans have not done everything that they should /.

The <norp>Chinese</norp> and <norp>the South Koreans</norp> have not done everything that they should /.


uh they 've shown the carrots /.


they 've been unwilling to show the sticks that they can also wield /.


I think on our side um it matters less who else is at the table than that we have our own wits about us as we sit down with the North Koreans /.

I think on our side um it matters less who else is at the table than that we have our own wits about us as we sit down with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> /.


And our government I believe has been divided over the last few years as the six party talks between two camps /.

And our government I believe has been divided over <date>the last few years</date> as the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks between <cardinal>two</cardinal> camps /.


One camp which believes that we have to give diplomacy a try and is earnest about pursuing diplomacy with North Korea /.

<cardinal>One</cardinal> camp which believes that we have to give diplomacy a try and is earnest about pursuing diplomacy with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


But there 's another camp uh in this country and I think represented in the government that believes that negotiating with the North Koreans is a fools game or is even immoral because of the nature of the regime /.

But there 's another camp uh in this country and I think represented in the government that believes that negotiating with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> is a fools game or is even immoral because of the nature of the regime /.


I do n't agree with that view because I think it 's more immoral to let North Korea go nuclear than to try to reach a deal with North Korea /.

I do n't agree with that view because I think it 's more immoral to let <gpe>North Korea</gpe> go nuclear than to try to reach a deal with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


But we have been of two minds /.

But we have been of <cardinal>two</cardinal> minds /.


and therefore I do n't think we at the table has been as effective as we might have been /.


you showed some of that ambivalence in the earlier part of your segment where you see the US government saying one thing at one time and another thing at the other times /.

you showed some of that ambivalence in the earlier part of your segment where you see the <gpe>US</gpe> government saying <cardinal>one</cardinal> thing at <cardinal>one</cardinal> time and another thing at the other times /.


Though it 's important that we get our story straight /.


and that 's more important than who else is at the table /.


You had advocated several weeks ago a preemptive military strike on the missile that was about to be tested /.

You had advocated <date>several weeks ago</date> a preemptive military strike on the missile that was about to be tested /.


Many criticize that as belligerent /.


and perhaps could even trigger a North Korea response against South Korea or against Japan /.

and perhaps could even trigger a <gpe>North Korea</gpe> response against <gpe>South Korea</gpe> or against <gpe>Japan</gpe> /.


who knows /.


In hindsight do you still stand by that preemptive military strike /?


Well I do /.


and I want to put that in some context /.


By the way I would say we should have that same position today That is if the North Koreans go out to the launch pad and erect that missile and prepare to launch it we can destroy that uh before they can do it /.

By the way I would say we should have that same position today That is if <norp>the North Koreans</norp> go out to the launch pad and erect that missile and prepare to launch it we can destroy that uh before they can do it /.


To do so would be a very limited military action a single bomb a single cruise missile /.


the north Koreans are n't going to start a war in response uh to that kind of action /.

<norp>the north Koreans</norp> are n't going to start a war in response uh to that kind of action /.


And to those that think that 's too much I can only say where are you going to draw a line in the sand with North Korea /?

And to those that think that 's too much I can only say where are you going to draw a line in the sand with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /?


At some point we have to draw a line in the sand and defend it /.


We say things are intolerable /.


we say they 're unacceptable /.


and then we tolerate and accept /.


former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry and I thought long and hard about this /.

former Secretary of <org>Defense</org> <person>Bill Perry</person> and I thought long and hard about this /.


and we thought that this was a relatively nonprovocative way to draw a line in the sand with North Koreans /.

and we thought that this was a relatively nonprovocative way to draw a line in the sand with <norp>North Koreans</norp> /.


Now I have to emphasize there 's risk in inaction also /.


you may say there 's risk in this action /.


but I have to emphasize there 's risk in inaction as well letting North Korea go nuclear /.

but I have to emphasize there 's risk in inaction as well letting <gpe>North Korea</gpe> go nuclear /.


Governor Richardson well how do you think the North Koreans would react if we took out their test missile /?

Governor <person>Richardson</person> well how do you think <norp>the North Koreans</norp> would react if we took out their test missile /?


Well I respectfully disagree with Assistant Secretary Carter there /.

Well I respectfully disagree with Assistant Secretary <person>Carter</person> there /.


But at least he 's got a new idea which the administration does not put forth /.


I think if we are seriously attacked or threatened , that missile which was a test was geared to the United States or to our allies we have allied responsibilities with South Korea or Japan /. /.

I think if we are seriously attacked or threatened , that missile which was a test was geared to <gpe>the United States</gpe> or to our allies we have allied responsibilities with <gpe>South Korea</gpe> or <gpe>Japan</gpe> /. /.


Uh you do take that step /.


but the fact is that you risk uh the uh North Koreans shooting missiles at South Korea /.

but the fact is that you risk uh the uh <norp>North Koreans</norp> shooting missiles at <gpe>South Korea</gpe> /.


and we 've got thirty seven thousand American forces at the DMZ /.

and we 've got <cardinal>thirty seven thousand</cardinal> <norp>American</norp> forces at the DMZ /.


Uh but Tim I think another reason for the face to face talks is that there 're two issues that are separate from the six party talks that are a serious grievance in our relationship /.

Uh but <person>Tim</person> I think another reason for the face to face talks is that there 're <cardinal>two</cardinal> issues that are separate from the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks that are a serious grievance in our relationship /.


one is the fact that we have frozen financial assets of the North Koreans /.

<cardinal>one</cardinal> is the fact that we have frozen financial assets of <norp>the North Koreans</norp> /.


I believe rightly so /.


but that is a separate bilateral issue /.


The second is our objection to dealing with North Koreans ' request for a light water reactor Which I believe has bogged down the six party talks /.

The <ordinal>second</ordinal> is our objection to dealing with <norp>North Koreans '</norp> request for a light water reactor Which I believe has bogged down the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks /.


Which by the way I believe you could have a separate bilateral face to face negotiation with the United States and also continue the efforts with the six party talks because it is the South Koreans and the Japanese that are providing financial and fuel incentives /.

Which by the way I believe you could have a separate bilateral face to face negotiation with <gpe>the United States</gpe> and also continue the efforts with the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks because it is <norp>the South Koreans</norp> and the <norp>Japanese</norp> that are providing financial and fuel incentives /.


So you ca n't cut them out /.


but I think it 's essential to have face to *face private bilateral talks between United States and North Korea /.

but I think it 's essential to have face to *face private bilateral talks between <gpe>United States</gpe> and <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


But in the end it 's a judgment of North Korean intentions /.

But in the end it 's a judgment of <norp>North Korean</norp> intentions /.


You 'd been there five times /.

You 'd been there <cardinal>five</cardinal> times /.


you know them /.


and yet a few weeks before the missile launch you said I do n't think they 're going to test /.

and yet <date>a few weeks</date> before the missile launch you said I do n't think they 're going to test /.


And they did /.


No Tim I said I believe that they were going to test /.

No <person>Tim</person> I said I believe that they were going to test /.


I did say that /.


And what I sense in my negotiations in dealing with North Koreans /-

And what I sense in my negotiations in dealing with <norp>North Koreans</norp> /-


You said as days go by I do n't believe they 're going to do it /.

You said as <date>days</date> go by I do n't believe they 're going to do it /.


But early on I said that they did on CBS /.

But early on I said that they did on <org>CBS</org> /.


Uh my point is that when you deal with North Korea you 're not dealing with individuals like you and me /.

Uh my point is that when you deal with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> you 're not dealing with individuals like you and me /.


Do n't believe in compromise /.


they believe in their only way or the highway /.


Their view is that their cause is right /.


and they 're going to wait you out /.


So they 're totally unpredictable /.


and I believe the only way to deal with them and we have shown that effectively in past dealings with the Clinton Administration is direct engagement To get them to curb their nuclear weapons as Bob Gallucci did /.

and I believe the only way to deal with them and we have shown that effectively in past dealings with the <person>Clinton</person> Administration is direct engagement To get them to curb their nuclear weapons as <person>Bob Gallucci</person> did /.


Secretary Albright almost got a missile agreement /.

Secretary <person>Albright</person> almost got a missile agreement /.


Uh Jimmy Carter got uh an agreement which was later violated regrettably with the father Kim Jong - Il /.

Uh <person>Jimmy Carter</person> got uh an agreement which was later violated regrettably with the father <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> /.


My point is that face to face discussions with the United States directly I believe is a precursor /.

My point is that face to face discussions with <gpe>the United States</gpe> directly I believe is a precursor /.


the continuation of the six party talks is the best way to go /.

the continuation of the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks is the best way to go /.


But do they keep their word /?


Here 's Madeline Albright toasting Kim Jong - Il in North Korea October of two thousand /.

Here 's <person>Madeline Albright</person> toasting <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> in <gpe>North Korea</gpe> <date>October of two thousand</date> /.


She appeared on this program four years later /.

She appeared on this program <date>four years later</date> /.


and this was our exchange /.


But did n't North Korea develop a nuclear bomb on Bill Clinton 's watch /?

But did n't <gpe>North Korea</gpe> develop a nuclear bomb on <person>Bill Clinton 's</person> watch /?


No what they were doing uh as it turns out , they were cheating /.


and the reason that you have arms control agreements is that you do n't make them with your friends , you make them with your enemies /.


and it is the process that is required to hold uh countries accountable /.


Ambassador Gallucci you negotiated that ninety four agreement /.

Ambassador <person>Gallucci</person> you negotiated that <date>ninety four</date> agreement /.


The North Koreans stopped processing in one plant if you will /.

<norp>The North Koreans</norp> stopped processing in <cardinal>one</cardinal> plant if you will /.


but we later found out that at the same time they were making uranium in another plant /.


Not actually /.


No that 's not what we found out /.


What happened was we did do a deal /.


We did stop a uh plutonium based pro-nuclear weapons program /.


We made sure that eight thousand fuel rods containing around thirty kilograms enough for five nuclear weapons worth of plutonium stayed in a storage pond /.

We made sure that <cardinal>eight thousand</cardinal> fuel rods containing <quantity>around thirty kilograms</quantity> enough for <cardinal>five</cardinal> nuclear weapons worth of plutonium stayed in a storage pond /.


And the deal would have had the North Koreans end their nuclear weapons program /.

And the deal would have had <norp>the North Koreans</norp> end their nuclear weapons program /.


We think they started cheating in the late nineties by getting some gas centrifuge equipment from Pakistan /.

We think they started cheating in <date>the late nineties</date> by getting some gas centrifuge equipment from <gpe>Pakistan</gpe> /.


We do n't know a lot about that where it is whether the equipment has been put together /.


We think over a period of time they 'll do what the Pakistanis did , what the Iranians appear to be wanting to do and put together this gas centrifuge /.

We think over a period of time they 'll do what the <norp>Pakistanis</norp> did , what the <norp>Iranians</norp> appear to be wanting to do and put together this gas centrifuge /.


But they never got there yet /.


Or we do n't think they 've gotten there yet /.


But they broke their word /.


They absolutely cheated /.


There 's no question about that /.


But really you ought to be clear here what 's happened /.


There was a nuclear weapons program that was stopped /.


Plutonium production was stopped /.


Right /.


And afterwards tragically I believe that agreement which locked them up was allowed to collapse /.


And we find ourselves now with the North Koreans accumulating plutonium a bomb 's worth a year /.

And we find ourselves now with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> accumulating plutonium a bomb 's worth a year /.


And freed up that plutonium that was um controlled for that period of time /.


And they say they 've used it to make bombs /.


we 'd have to estimate about five more /.

we 'd have to estimate about <cardinal>five</cardinal> more /.


And with each passing day I would argue to you more important than that missile that Ash would take out on the gantry if it turns up again with each passing day we 're going to find ourselves more and more closer than we were before to the day where that material could be transferred or sold to Al - Queda Presenting a threat far greater than the threat that is posed to us by nuclear weapons aboard ballistic missiles /.

And with <date>each passing day</date> I would argue to you more important than that missile that <person>Ash</person> would take out on the gantry if it turns up again with each passing day we 're going to find ourselves more and more closer than we were before to <date>the day</date> where that material could be transferred or sold to Al - Queda Presenting a threat far greater than the threat that is posed to us by nuclear weapons aboard ballistic missiles /.


We can deter a country with ballistic missiles /.


We know the return address /.


We do /.


But with a terrorist unconventional delivery your national missile defense will not be very good against United Airlines or American Airlines Or a bus or a truck /.

But with a terrorist unconventional delivery your national missile defense will not be very good against <org>United Airlines</org> or <org>American Airlines</org> Or a bus or a truck /.


And deterrents does n't work terribly well when an enemy values your death more than his life /.


So no defense no deterrents /.


we need to lock up the nuclear program /.


You would not care about the ballistic missile program if they did not have the nuclear weapons program /.


But you can have all the agreements you want /.


if they 're going to cheat what good are they /?


Madeline Albright essentially had it correct in my view /.

<person>Madeline Albright</person> essentially had it correct in my view /.


You make a deal /.


Nobody did that deal in ninety four thinking we were trusting North Koreans /.

Nobody did that deal in <date>ninety four</date> thinking we were trusting <norp>North Koreans</norp> /.


We had some transparency a measure of it /.


and you verify /.


We caught them cheating /.


You might make another deal /.


I think you should /.


You ask the question you make another deal are you better off with the deal /.


or are you better off without it /?


If the answer to the former is yes you do the deal /.


You do n't +ask I think the simple question have they fooled us before /.


then do n't let them fool us again /.


I do n't believe that 's the way you proceed in international affairs /.


It asks a very tough question about the national security /.


should we do this /?


Is it better for us /?


Ask for more transparency /.


Insist on it /.


Be tough in the negotiations Not in the formality of whether it 's six parties or it 's bilateral /.

Be tough in the negotiations Not in the formality of whether it 's <cardinal>six</cardinal> parties or it 's bilateral /.


Let me show you all two presidents Bill Clinton back in nineteen ninety three George Bush ten years later talking to the North Koreans in effect /.

Let me show you all <cardinal>two</cardinal> presidents <person>Bill Clinton</person> back in <date>nineteen ninety three</date> <person>George Bush</person> <date>ten years later</date> talking to <norp>the North Koreans</norp> in effect /.


And I 'm asking you to put your mind in place of a North Korean watching this /.

And I 'm asking you to put your mind in place of <norp>a North Korean</norp> watching this /.


President Clinton President Bush /.

President <person>Clinton</person> President <person>Bush</person> /.


North Korea can not be allowed to develop a nuclear bomb /.

<gpe>North Korea</gpe> can not be allowed to develop a nuclear bomb /.


We had to be very firm about it /.


We will not tolerate nuclear weapons in North Korea /.

We will not tolerate nuclear weapons in <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


Ash Carter both presidents making very firm resolved statements /.

<person>Ash Carter</person> both presidents making very firm resolved statements /.


if you 're in North Korean watching that knowing that you now have the potential of building eight nuclear bombs what are you thinking /?

if you 're in <norp>North Korean</norp> watching that knowing that you now have the potential of building <cardinal>eight</cardinal> nuclear bombs what are you thinking /?


Well I 'm concerned that they 're thinking that we 're giving a new meaning to the word intolerable Because they keep doing things that we say are intolerable and then we tolerate them /.


That 's why I think at some point you have to draw the line with the North Koreans /.

That 's why I think at some point you have to draw the line with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> /.


I do think and here I agree with both of the other gentlemen you have on the show who have shown it 's possible to reach an agreement with North Korea and to get agreements that serve our interests The much maligned agreed framework as Bob Galluci pointed out without that agreed framework North Korea by all the calculations of the experts would now have fifty nuclear weapons /.

I do think and here I agree with both of the other gentlemen you have on the show who have shown it 's possible to reach an agreement with <gpe>North Korea</gpe> and to get agreements that serve our interests The much maligned agreed framework as <person>Bob Galluci</person> pointed out without that agreed framework <gpe>North Korea</gpe> by all the calculations of the experts would now have <cardinal>fifty</cardinal> nuclear weapons /.


So we were better off with the agreement than without it /.


It is possible to reach agreement with the North Koreans But not when they see the kind of footage that you uh showed Which is uh uh uh Americans drawing a line in the sand and then stepping back from that line And drawing a line in the sand and then stepping back /.

It is possible to reach agreement with <norp>the North Koreans</norp> But not when they see the kind of footage that you uh showed Which is uh uh uh <norp>Americans</norp> drawing a line in the sand and then stepping back from that line And drawing a line in the sand and then stepping back /.


I think our diplomacy has to have carrots in it but it has to stand somewhere /.


and as I suggested earlier I think the missile tests are a good place to take a stand /.


Governor Richardson draw a line in the stand and step back /.

Governor <person>Richardson</person> draw a line in the stand and step back /.


the North Koreans watch that /.

<norp>the North Koreans</norp> watch that /.


they observe that /.


they know what their own has been /.


How do you have any strength in negotiating with people like that /?


The North Koreans in my dealings with them they care more about form than they do substance /.

<norp>The North Koreans</norp> in my dealings with them they care more about form than they do substance /.


In your earlier segment you showed president Bush calling him a tyrant /.

In your earlier segment you showed president <person>Bush</person> calling him a tyrant /.


But then later he called him Mister Kim Jong - Il /.

But then later he called him Mister <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> /.


I was in North Korea when that happened /.

I was in <gpe>North Korea</gpe> when that happened /.


The North Koreans were delighted because they felt they 'd been treated with respect /.

<norp>The North Koreans</norp> were delighted because they felt they 'd been treated with respect /.


They care deeply about protocol /.


And this is another reason why I think for a relatively cheap price a face to face negotiation at the level of Chris Hill who again is very competent I believe would set the stage for a final agreement at the six party talks Which is essential Which is basically a good agreement /.

And this is another reason why I think for a relatively cheap price a face to face negotiation at the level of <person>Chris Hill</person> who again is very competent I believe would set the stage for a final agreement at the <cardinal>six</cardinal> party talks Which is essential Which is basically a good agreement /.


In exchange for North Korea dismantling its nuclear weapons its missiles they get an armistice agreement where they are not attacked /.

In exchange for <gpe>North Korea</gpe> dismantling its nuclear weapons its missiles they get an armistice agreement where they are not attacked /.


they get food fuel energy assistance /.


Security assurances we will not topple their regime /.


That 's right /.


yeah that 's right /.


that 's in that September agreement that Chris Hill negotiated /.

that 's in that <date>September</date> agreement that <person>Chris Hill</person> negotiated /.


My point is if it 's just going to be a face to face meeting that serves as a precursor that also deals with this frozen assets issue which has directly hit the North Korean regime cause it controls the foreign expenditures of Kim Jong - Il and you deal with this light water reactor especially now after we 've promised it to Iran and economic incentives to Iran I think the timing is right for this new stage of direct negotiation /.

My point is if it 's just going to be a face to face meeting that serves as a precursor that also deals with this frozen assets issue which has directly hit the <norp>North Korean</norp> regime cause it controls the foreign expenditures of <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> and you deal with this light water reactor especially now after we 've promised it to <gpe>Iran</gpe> and economic incentives to <gpe>Iran</gpe> I think the timing is right for this new stage of direct negotiation /.


Ambassador Galluci based on your experience do you believe the North Koreans would give up their nuclear program give up their nuclear bombs which they believe in their mind is an insurance policy against an American invasion for economic assistance light water reactors /?

Ambassador <person>Galluci</person> based on your experience do you believe <norp>the North Koreans</norp> would give up their nuclear program give up their nuclear bombs which they believe in their mind is an insurance policy against an <norp>American</norp> invasion for economic assistance light water reactors /?


At the end of the day I do n't know /.


Um but that leaves me to conclude since I really do n't know that it 's a good idea to find out /.


It 's a good idea it was in nineteen ninety four to do a deal with the North that required them to give up the program /.

It 's a good idea it was in <date>nineteen ninety four</date> to do a deal with <gpe>the North</gpe> that required them to give up the program /.


We did that /.


and for a period of years we were in a position to monitor that closely /.

and for <date>a period of years</date> we were in a position to monitor that closely /.


and they did give it up /.


Indeed you can make an argument that while the centrifuge program with the Pakistanis is clearly cheating was n't yet a genuine nuclear weapons program had n't produced anything and probably still has n't produced anything /.

Indeed you can make an argument that while the centrifuge program with the <norp>Pakistanis</norp> is clearly cheating was n't yet a genuine nuclear weapons program had n't produced anything and probably still has n't produced anything /.


So you have the possibility if the North Koreans are thinking the way they may be thinking that they need one or the other , they need either nuclear weapons to deter the United States from regime change or they need a relationship with us that makes it unnecessary for them to have nuclear weapons /.

So you have the possibility if <norp>the North Koreans</norp> are thinking the way they may be thinking that they need <cardinal>one</cardinal> or the other , they need either nuclear weapons to deter <gpe>the United States</gpe> from regime change or they need a relationship with us that makes it unnecessary for them to have nuclear weapons /.


The only way to find out whether they 'll ultimately give up those weapons is to do a deal /.


We hear so much talk about Kim Jong - Il tyrant spoiled child /.

We hear so much talk about <person>Kim Jong - Il</person> tyrant spoiled child /.


others have said madman /.


you 've been in that country five times /.

you 've been in that country <cardinal>five</cardinal> times /.


who is he /?


What is he /?


Well I 've never met him /.


I met the number two in command /.

I met <cardinal>the number two</cardinal> in command /.


He is the entire nation /.


he is basically a cult of personality /.


He runs everything /.


He knows everything that 's happening /.


All power flows through him /.


Uh what that causes unfortunately is an isolated North Korea /.

Uh what that causes unfortunately is an isolated <gpe>North Korea</gpe> /.


His people are in terrible shape economically /.


I been there five times /.

I been there <cardinal>five</cardinal> times /.


I think I 've seen one tractor /.

I think I 've seen <cardinal>one</cardinal> tractor /.


I see people weak and drawn out /.


they look like they need nourishment /.


A lot of people are starving there /.


They have human rights violations /.


He is a mercurial character /.


But I think he 's crazy like a fox /.


He is not somebody that is uh out of his mind /.


he may be totally unpredictable isolated /.


but he 's calculating /.


and he 's used the Fourth of July /.

and he 's used <date>the Fourth of July</date> /.


every time he feels he 's backed down he moves and does something irrational /.


Uh he shoots missiles off /.


he 's done it twice /.


He cancels agreements /.


he gets the nuclear inspectors out in two thousand and two /.

he gets the nuclear inspectors out in <date>two thousand and two</date> /.


This is the way he operates /.


And what we should do is take advantage of his vulnerability /.


He also is vulnerable in the sense that the country is weak economically /.


it desperately needs an elimination of sanctions /.


they need food electricity /.


He 's realistic too I believe /.


Bill Richardson Robert Gallucci Ashton Carter thank you all for a very sobering but important discussion /.

<person>Bill Richardson</person> <person>Robert Gallucci</person> <person>Ashton Carter</person> thank you all for a very sobering but important discussion /.


Coming next , President Bush celebrated his sixtieth birthday this week /.

Coming next , President <person>Bush</person> celebrated his <ordinal>sixtieth</ordinal> birthday <date>this week</date> /.


And thirty one years ago on Meet The Press then president Gerald Ford talked about being sixty and serving as president /.

And <date>thirty one years ago</date> on <work_of_art>Meet The Press</work_of_art> then president <person>Gerald Ford</person> talked about being <date>sixty</date> and serving as president /.


Coming up right here on Meet The Press /.

Coming up right here on <work_of_art>Meet The Press</work_of_art> /.


And we 're back /.


Two presidential birthdays this week /.

<cardinal>Two</cardinal> presidential birthdays <date>this week</date> /.


President Bush turned sixty last Thursday /.

President <person>Bush</person> turned <date>sixty</date> <date>last Thursday</date> /.


And this Friday former president Gerald Ford will be ninety three years old /.

And <date>this Friday</date> former president <person>Gerald Ford</person> will be <date>ninety three years old</date> /.


Our thirty - eighth president talked about age health and the presidency right here thirty one years ago /.

Our <ordinal>thirty - eighth</ordinal> president talked about age health and the presidency right here <date>thirty one years ago</date> /.


Mr. President in the early days of the republic the American people took great chances on young men in the presidency /.

Mr. President in the early days of the republic the <norp>American</norp> people took great chances on young men in the presidency /.


Now here we are looking at seventy six /.

Now here we are looking at <date>seventy six</date> /.


and most of the leading candidates are old geezers like me in their sixties /.

and most of the leading candidates are old geezers like me in <date>their sixties</date> /.


Now we seem to have misplaced a generation here somewhere /.


is the system out of phase /.


what explains this /?


I think age is a state of mind and obviously a state of health /.


I 'm in the early sixties /.

I 'm in <date>the early sixties</date> /.


I feel as vigorous mentally and physically as I ever have at any time in my life /.


I do n't think you should rule a person out just because they 're my particular age /.


The other hand I do n't think uh you should rule out a younger person who by experience or intelligence or overall capability is a potential candidate /.


I do n't think you should categorize people just by age bracket /.


I believe you ought to look at the person how strong he is mentally and physically what is his experience and what his background is /.


that 's the criteria I would use /.


happy birthday President Gerry Ford /.

happy birthday President <person>Gerry Ford</person> /.


And also happy birthday to another American legend /.

And also happy birthday to another <norp>American</norp> legend /.


thirty eight years ago founded the special Olympics /.

<date>thirty eight years ago</date> founded <event>the special Olympics</event> /.


She turns eighty five tomorrow /.

She turns <date>eighty five</date> <date>tomorrow</date> /.


And we 'll be right back /.


For more information on today 's guest and topic log onto the viewer resources page of our website MTP dot MSNBC dot com /.

For more information on <date>today</date> 's guest and topic log onto the viewer resources page of our website MTP dot MSNBC dot com /.


That 's all for today /.


we 'll be back next week at our regular time /.

we 'll be back <date>next week</date> at our regular time /.


If it 's Sunday it 's Meet the Press /.

If it 's <date>Sunday</date> it 's <work_of_art>Meet the Press</work_of_art> /.


Iraq in the shadows /.


As Iraqis vote on a new constitution have the media dropped the ball on this long and bloody war /?

As <norp>Iraqis</norp> vote on a new constitution have the media dropped the ball on this long and bloody war /?


Has Iraq been overshadowed by Katrina and Tom DeLay and Harriet Meyers and the Pakistan quake /?

Has <gpe>Iraq</gpe> been overshadowed by <event>Katrina</event> and <person>Tom DeLay</person> and <person>Harriet Meyers</person> and the <gpe>Pakistan</gpe> quake /?


A conversation with columnist Tom Friedman /.

A conversation with columnist <person>Tom Friedman</person> /.


Was Sixty Minutes unfair to Bill Clinton in airing Louis Freeh 's charges against him /?

Was <org>Sixty Minutes</org> unfair to <person>Bill Clinton</person> in airing <person>Louis Freeh 's</person> charges against him /?


Former Clinton lawyer Lanny Davis in our new Talk Back to the Media segment /.

Former <person>Clinton</person> lawyer <person>Lanny Davis</person> in our new <work_of_art>Talk Back to the Media</work_of_art> segment /.


Plus that bogus subway terror alert /.


Why did n't television slam on the brakes /?


Welcome to Reliable Sources /.

Welcome to <work_of_art>Reliable Sources</work_of_art> /.


I 'm Howard Kurtz /.


You 're joining us at our new time ten AM eastern seven pacific for a full hour of media analysis every week /.

You 're joining us at our new time <time>ten AM eastern</time> <time>seven pacific</time> for <time>a full hour</time> of media analysis <date>every week</date> /.


We have some new segments we 'll be adding in the coming week /.

We have some new segments we 'll be adding in <date>the coming week</date> /.


so stay tuned /.


I had a wide ranging sitdown with Pulitzer Prize winner Tom Friedman /.

I had a wide ranging sitdown with <work_of_art>Pulitzer Prize</work_of_art> winner <person>Tom Friedman</person> /.


but first Judy Miller and the New York Times finally go public on the front page this morning with their nearly six thousand word account of the CIA leak investigation /.

but <ordinal>first</ordinal> <person>Judy Miller</person> and <org>the New York Times</org> finally go public on the front page <time>this morning</time> with their <cardinal>nearly six thousand</cardinal> word account of the <org>CIA</org> leak investigation /.


In a separate first person account Miller confirmed that she told the grand jury that Scooter Libby Dick Cheney 's top aide discussed with her as many as three times the role of Valerie Plame as a CIA employee /.

In a separate <ordinal>first</ordinal> person account <person>Miller</person> confirmed that she told the grand jury that <person>Scooter Libby</person> <person>Dick Cheney 's</person> top aide discussed with her <cardinal>as many as three</cardinal> times the role of <person>Valerie Plame</person> as a <org>CIA</org> employee /.


This says the Bush administration was angry about her husband Joe Wilson 's role in criticizing President Bush on whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction /.

This says the <person>Bush</person> administration was angry about her husband <person>Joe Wilson 's</person> role in criticizing President <person>Bush</person> on whether <person>Saddam Hussein</person> had weapons of mass destruction /.


The conclusion by a team of Times reporters /.

The conclusion by a team of <org>Times</org> reporters /.


The Times incurred millions of dollars in legal fees in Miss Miller 's case /.

The <org>Times</org> incurred <money>millions of dollars</money> in legal fees in Miss <person>Miller</person> 's case /.


It limited its own ability to cover aspects of one of the biggest scandals of the day /.

It limited its own ability to cover aspects of <cardinal>one</cardinal> of the biggest scandals of <date>the day</date> /.


Even as the paper asked for the public 's support it was unable to answer its questions /.


Among the journalistic revelations, Miller released from jail last month says she pushed for a story on the outing of Valerie Plame back in two thousand three /.

Among the journalistic revelations, <person>Miller</person> released from jail <date>last month</date> says she pushed for a story on the outing of <person>Valerie Plame</person> back in <date>two thousand three</date> /.


She never wrote one /.

She never wrote <cardinal>one</cardinal> /.


but her former boss says no way /.


that never happened /.


And the Times was so conflicted in covering the controversy the editors killed the story about Libby and pulled their punches in other ways /.

And the <org>Times</org> was so conflicted in covering the controversy the editors killed the story about <person>Libby</person> and pulled their punches in other ways /.


And joining us now in Los Angeles Arianna Huffington the syndicated columnist and founder of the blog huffington post dot com /.

And joining us now in <gpe>Los Angeles</gpe> <person>Arianna Huffington</person> the syndicated columnist and founder of the blog huffington post dot com /.


in Minneapolis Lucy Dalglish executive director of the Reporters ' Committee for Freedom of the Press /.

in <gpe>Minneapolis</gpe> <person>Lucy Dalglish</person> executive director of <org>the Reporters ' Committee for Freedom of the Press</org> /.


and here in Washington Frank Sesno professor of public policy and communication at George Mason University and a CNN special correspondant /.

and here in <gpe>Washington</gpe> <person>Frank Sesno</person> professor of public policy and communication at <org>George Mason University</org> and a <org>CNN</org> special correspondant /.


Frank Sesno has the New York Times belatedly to be sure fought and finally made an honest accounting of its role of Judy Miller 's role and the tensions that she created in the newsroom /?

<person>Frank Sesno</person> has <org>the New York Times</org> belatedly to be sure fought and finally made an honest accounting of its role of <person>Judy Miller 's</person> role and the tensions that she created in the newsroom /?


Well an honest accounting /.


yeah maybe /.


but not a full accounting /.


You know and if the whole bottom line of this mess is that the public has the right to know and that that 's what this is all about the public still does n't know a lot of things /.


There 's still a lot of questions here /.


Why was that waiver that Miller was apparently granted by uh Scooter Libby a year ago /-

Why was that waiver that <person>Miller</person> was apparently granted by uh <person>Scooter Libby</person> <date>a year ago</date> /-


Why did it wait until she sat in jail for all that time before she actually took up on it /?


you know she 's referred to in the Times ' own account as Miss Run Amuck /.

you know she 's referred to in the <org>Times</org> ' own account as <person>Miss Run Amuck</person> /.


She was pulled off of certain stories on Iraq 's weapons of mass destruction /.

She was pulled off of certain stories on <gpe>Iraq</gpe> 's weapons of mass destruction /.


What are her motives and bottom lines to the secrecy of this whole thing /?


There 's a lot we still do n't know /.


Miss Run Amuck was a name she gave herself quite proudly apparently /.

<person>Miss Run Amuck</person> was a name she gave herself quite proudly apparently /.


Arianna Huffington the Times piece a lengthy piece acknowledges that Judy Miller was a controversial figure in the newsroom whose own WMD reporting was wrong and that while she claims to have pushed for this uh story on Valerie Plame two years ago Jill Abrahamson now the paper 's managing editor says No way /.

<person>Arianna Huffington</person> the <org>Times</org> piece a lengthy piece acknowledges that <person>Judy Miller</person> was a controversial figure in the newsroom whose own WMD reporting was wrong and that while she claims to have pushed for this uh story on <person>Valerie Plame</person> <date>two years ago</date> <person>Jill Abrahamson</person> now the paper 's managing editor says No way /.


That did n't happen /.


In other words there 's a dispute in the accounts /.


Pretty candid stuff for a newspaper to publish about itself would n't you say /?


Well as Frank said there are many unanswered questions /.

Well as <person>Frank</person> said there are many unanswered questions /.


And there are many very devastating eh comments and conclusions about Judy Miller as a journalist /.

And there are many very devastating eh comments and conclusions about <person>Judy Miller</person> as a journalist /.


I do n't think the Times had any choice though Howie . Because remember as a press reporter back on July twenty - seventh the turmoil in the newsroom has been going on for months about Judy Miller and the way the paper has decided to cover the story and the way they decided to present her as a martyr for the first amendment /.

I do n't think the <org>Times</org> had any choice though <person>Howie</person> . Because remember as a press reporter back on <date>July twenty - seventh</date> the turmoil in the newsroom has been going on for <date>months</date> about <person>Judy Miller</person> and the way the paper has decided to cover the story and the way they decided to present her as a martyr for <law>the first amendment</law> /.


And the main unanswered question here is why did Arthur Sulzberger the newspaper 's publisher allow Judy Miller to hijack the reporting of that story and the editorial policy on that story /.

And the main unanswered question here is why did <person>Arthur Sulzberger</person> the newspaper 's publisher allow <person>Judy Miller</person> to hijack the reporting of that story and the editorial policy on that story /.


And the similarities for the Jayson Blair case /.

And the similarities for the <person>Jayson Blair</person> case /.


Remember after the Jayson Blair scandal broke we had a seven thousand word story that did not give a full account of what happened . Especially about why is a major institution like the Times ignoring so many red flags /.

Remember after the <person>Jayson Blair</person> scandal broke we had a <cardinal>seven thousand word</cardinal> story that did not give a full account of what happened . Especially about why is a major institution like the <org>Times</org> ignoring so many red flags /.


Alright /.


In the story one of things that we learn is that Bill Keller took Judy Miller off her WMD beat as one of his first personnel decisions when he took eh the reins as editor /.

In the story <cardinal>one</cardinal> of things that we learn is that <person>Bill Keller</person> took <person>Judy Miller</person> off her WMD beat as <cardinal>one</cardinal> of his <ordinal>first</ordinal> personnel decisions when he took eh the reins as editor /.


Well uh I agree there are some unanswered questions /.


but I 'm willing to give the Times a little more credit than you for at least attempting to answer uh many of the questions /.

but I 'm willing to give the <org>Times</org> a little more credit than you for at least attempting to answer uh many of the questions /.


And Lucy Dalglish here 's the thing that jumped out at me in the story /.

And <person>Lucy Dalglish</person> here 's the thing that jumped out at me in the story /.


Judy Miller acknowledges that at Louis Libby 's request this is the Dick Cheney aide she agreed to refer to him and in stories not as a senior administration official but as a former Hill aide because he had once worked on Capitol Hill /.

<person>Judy Miller</person> acknowledges that at <person>Louis Libby 's</person> request this is the <person>Dick Cheney</person> aide she agreed to refer to him and in stories not as a senior administration official but as a former <loc>Hill</loc> aide because he had once worked on <loc>Capitol Hill</loc> /.


Do you have a problem with that sort of thing /?


I thought that was a little bit misleading /.


And I thought it was odd /.


I mean her justification was that well he had been a former Hill staffer /.

I mean her justification was that well he had been a former <loc>Hill</loc> staffer /.


Um but that was a strange request /.


and I think the agreement was strange /.


I 'll agree with you on that /.


Frank Sesno the Times was so hamstrung by its passionate embrace of this reporter who after all was facing jail did go to jail /.

<person>Frank Sesno</person> the <org>Times</org> was so hamstrung by its passionate embrace of this reporter who after all was facing jail did go to jail /.


One can understand the emotions uh that were unleashed here /.


and yet the editors discouraged stories on the CIA leak investigation and one time killed a piece written by a reporter about Scooter Libby /.

and yet the editors discouraged stories on the <org>CIA</org> leak investigation and <cardinal>one</cardinal> time killed a piece written by a reporter about <person>Scooter Libby</person> /.


Was that an abdication of journalistic responsibility /?


Maybe yeah maybe /.


I mean what it really shows Howie I think is just how difficult it is for news organizations to report on themselves /.

I mean what it really shows <person>Howie</person> I think is just how difficult it is for news organizations to report on themselves /.


You know news organizations demand total transparency whether you 're General Motors or United States government /.

You know news organizations demand total transparency whether you 're <org>General Motors</org> or <gpe>United States</gpe> government /.


We want access /.


We want explanation /.


We want full disclosure /.


But it 's very difficult for them to do it themselves /.


In this case and the Times makes it very plain in their story today they really suffered /.

In this case and the <org>Times</org> makes it very plain in their story <date>today</date> they really suffered /.


They were behind on virtually every major aspect of the story /.


Even when she went to jail /?


Even when she went to jail and w- /.


When she won release from jail /.


Yeah at the point that she came out /.


They did n't say that you know until she walked out /.


And the question and this is a very serious question it 's not answered in the article /.


Were editorial higher - ups and were the corporate lawyers at the New York Times in some way leaning on suppressing and distorting the coverage from the news uh section /?

Were editorial higher - ups and were the corporate lawyers at <org>the New York Times</org> in some way leaning on suppressing and distorting the coverage from the news uh section /?


Arianna Huffington uh in this lengthy piece this morning uh uh Judy Miller is quoted excuse me as saying that there was another source beside Scooter Libby that she dealt with on the Valerie Plame situation /.

<person>Arianna Huffington</person> uh in this lengthy piece <time>this morning</time> uh uh <person>Judy Miller</person> is quoted excuse me as saying that there was another source beside <person>Scooter Libby</person> that she dealt with on the <person>Valerie Plame</person> situation /.


She does n't recall who that source was looking at her notes and seeing the uh notation Valerie Flame /.

She does n't recall who that source was looking at her notes and seeing the uh notation <person>Valerie Flame</person> /.


She got the name wrong /.


Do you buy this notion that she does n't recall who this other source was /?


No of course not Howie /.

No of course not <person>Howie</person> /.


In fact I think this is the major unanswered question /.


We do n't know who eh her source was when it comes to revealing the identity of Valerie Plame /.

We do n't know who eh her source was when it comes to revealing the identity of <person>Valerie Plame</person> /.


And to say that she does not recall is really as convincing as having Woodward and Bernstein saying that they do not recall who Deep Throat was /.

And to say that she does not recall is really as convincing as having <person>Woodward</person> and <person>Bernstein</person> saying that they do not recall who <person>Deep Throat</person> was /.


After all these notes were just a few weeks old when um the Valerie Plame Bob Novak column appeared and when the whole Washington and the whole journalistic community was talking about it /.

After all these notes were <date>just a few weeks old</date> when um the <person>Valerie Plame</person> <person>Bob Novak</person> column appeared and when the whole <gpe>Washington</gpe> and the whole journalistic community was talking about it /.


You know I do n't /-


Incidentally there was some questions uh that Judy Miller would not answer to her colleagues /.

Incidentally there was some questions uh that <person>Judy Miller</person> would not answer to her colleagues /.


and she would n't share her notes with them although they 've been turned over to the special prosecutor /.


Lucy Dalglish the big news for me was Miller recounting what her lawyer Floyd Abrams had said to her about a conversation that he had with Joe Tate who was Scooter Libby 's lawyer /.

<person>Lucy Dalglish</person> the big news for me was <person>Miller</person> recounting what her lawyer <person>Floyd Abrams</person> had said to her about a conversation that he had with <person>Joe Tate</person> who was <person>Scooter Libby 's</person> lawyer /.


Uh says um Floyd Abrams according to Miller 's account when I would n't give him Tate an assurance that you would exonerate Libby he said do n't go there /.

Uh says um <person>Floyd Abrams</person> according to <person>Miller</person> 's account when I would n't give him <person>Tate</person> an assurance that you would exonerate <person>Libby</person> he said do n't go there /.


Now Tate by the way tells the Times that that account is false and outrageous /.

Now <person>Tate</person> by the way tells the <org>Times</org> that that account is false and outrageous /.


Does this help justify eh Judy Miller 's otherwise mysterious decision to go to jail and not accept the waiver of confidentiality that Scooter Libby offered and sit in jail for eighty - five days /?

Does this help justify eh <person>Judy Miller 's</person> otherwise mysterious decision to go to jail and not accept the waiver of confidentiality that <person>Scooter Libby</person> offered and sit in jail for <date>eighty - five days</date> /?


N- you n- /.


you know I 've been talking to Judy off and on about this case for the last year /.

you know I 've been talking to <person>Judy</person> off and on about this case for <date>the last year</date> /.


This was a very difficult decision /.


and you know what this all comes down to is you keep your promises when you make a promise to a confidential source /.


You 'll recall six or eight months ago Howie I was on the show and we were talking about you know did Russert and Kessler and all the rest of those guys did they break some trust by agreeing to testify and observing the waiver /?

You 'll recall <date>six or eight months ago</date> <person>Howie</person> I was on the show and we were talking about you know did <person>Russert</person> and <person>Kessler</person> and all the rest of those guys did they break some trust by agreeing to testify and observing the waiver /?


What I think this situation and the turmoil that is obviously going on at the Times right now points out is the fact that we have a major problem in this country /.

What I think this situation and the turmoil that is obviously going on at the <org>Times</org> right now points out is the fact that we have a major problem in this country /.


it 's that reporters believe they need to keep their promises to their sources /.


Reporters will try to do whatever they can as long as the law allows them to protect those sources /.


Right /.


But these days um with the state of our law the fact that we do not have a federal shield law we have prosecutors and civil litigants going in there and interfering with the day to day operation of our newsrooms /.

But <date>these days</date> um with the state of our law the fact that we do not have a federal shield law we have prosecutors and civil litigants going in there and interfering with the day to day operation of our newsrooms /.


and we just can tolerate this /.


And we 're trying to /-


I think Lucy 's on to something here if I can just say Howie /.

I think <person>Lucy</person> 's on to something here if I can just say <person>Howie</person> /.


And I think this is very important because this is an ugly case /.


And even people close to Judith Miller say this is not the one you 'd really like to go to the mat on /.

And even people close to <person>Judith Miller</person> say this is not the <cardinal>one</cardinal> you 'd really like to go to the mat on /.


You 'd love to have a clear whistle blower case /.


You 'd love to have a Pentagon papers case /.

You 'd love to have a <org>Pentagon</org> papers case /.


You 'd love to have something where the well - being and the sanctity of the Republic you know hangs in the balance /.

You 'd love to have something where the well - being and the sanctity of the <org>Republic</org> you know hangs in the balance /.


She did n't even report on this /.


But it does point out a very serious issue /.


And that is the whole notion of the use of and abuse of confidential sources the protections that reporters do or do n't have and the propensity of uh the United States government to have more secrecy not less /.

And that is the whole notion of the use of and abuse of confidential sources the protections that reporters do or do n't have and the propensity of uh the <gpe>United States</gpe> government to have more secrecy not less /.


We 've got to figure this out /.


Well just to clarify uh she did ultimately uh testify about her confidential source /.


The whole issue was how voluntary was the waiver of her promise to Scooter Libby offered and why was she able to accept after being in jail as opposed to before being in jail /.

The whole issue was how voluntary was the waiver of her promise to Scooter <person>Libby</person> offered and why was she able to accept after being in jail as opposed to before being in jail /.


Well exactly /.


and you know what Howie /. /.

and you know what <person>Howie</person> /. /.


it 's really time for Lucy and other Judy Miller defenders to update her talking points because what Lucy just said just simply does not wash /.

it 's really time for <person>Lucy</person> and other <person>Judy Miller</person> defenders to update her talking points because what <person>Lucy</person> just said just simply does not wash /.


The truth is that as Howie said she did testify /.

The truth is that as <person>Howie</person> said she did testify /.


The truth is that it 's very clear from the stories today that she could 've asked uh Scooter Libby to call her so that she could hear the timber of his voice earlier /.

The truth is that it 's very clear from the stories <date>today</date> that she could 've asked uh <person>Scooter Libby</person> to call her so that she could hear the timber of his voice earlier /.


All of that could have happened /.


It did not happen because clearly Judy Miller is protecting another source that she still has not revealed to the American public /.

It did not happen because clearly <person>Judy Miller</person> is protecting another source that she still has not revealed to the <norp>American</norp> public /.


And the New York Times is /.


Lucy /.


Let me get a response from Lucy Dalglish /.

Let me get a response from <person>Lucy Dalglish</person> /.


I think it 's very obvious from what Judy wrote today she is protecting somebody else /.

I think it 's very obvious from what <person>Judy</person> wrote <date>today</date> she is protecting somebody else /.


And one of the reasons that this negotiation took so long is that not only was she negotiating what she was going to say about Scooter Libby but you got to keep in mind I 'm a lawyer there were lawyers involved in this /.

And <cardinal>one</cardinal> of the reasons that this negotiation took so long is that not only was she negotiating what she was going to say about <person>Scooter Libby</person> but you got to keep in mind I 'm a lawyer there were lawyers involved in this /.


They had to negotiate with Patrick Fitzgerald what he would not talk about /.

They had to negotiate with <person>Patrick Fitzgerald</person> what he would not talk about /.


They also had to negotiate whether or not there would be any type of um uh uh obstruction charges connected with contacting /.


Once you invoke the wrath or the extreme interest of a federal prosecutor you have to be very very careful /.


You do n't mess with the Feds /.


It 's very clear in her story that she decided finally to testify because she got tired of jail because she was threatened with criminal contempt charges because she wanted to go out and now she 's saying admitting finally write a book /.


All these things are there in black and white /.


and to continue to portray her as a martyr is not going to work /.


And on that point Arianna on that point she says sh- /-

And on that point <person>Arianna</person> on that point she says sh- /-


Excuse me /.


Judy Miller says she 's taking some time off from the paper /.

<person>Judy Miller</person> says she 's taking some time off from the paper /.


She wants to write a book /.


She would n't share her notes with her colleagues who were writing the story /.


Do you think she 'll ever come back /?


You think she 's saving it for the book /?


Well it 's very clear that she would not be welcome in the newsroom /.


And it 's very clear eh as I reported again that when Bill Keller took her off her WMD beat they were all hoping she would resign /.

And it 's very clear eh as I reported again that when <person>Bill Keller</person> took her off her WMD beat they were all hoping she would resign /.


Instead she threw a fit /.


but she stayed on /.


This is not a journalism one oh one course the way she handled both the WMD reporting and Plame Gate /.

This is not a journalism <cardinal>one oh one</cardinal> course the way she handled both the WMD reporting and <event>Plame Gate</event> /.


Frank Sesno please comment /.


Jump in /.


And Howie I 'll tell you what /.

And <person>Howie</person> I 'll tell you what /.


This is a gigantic shot across the bow of every manager in the news business and every editor and every executive producer anywhere because you got to have some uh control some connection with your correspondants and your reporters /.


You got to know who they 're talking to at some level anyway because you know what /?


It 's about trust with the public /.


and it 's about you know ending up in jail or in court /.


their story says that Bill Keller and Arthur Sulzberger did not press Judy Miller about her conversations with Libby or ask to see her notes while they were defending her /.

their story says that <person>Bill Keller</person> and <person>Arthur Sulzberger</person> did not press <person>Judy Miller</person> about her conversations with <person>Libby</person> or ask to see her notes while they were defending her /.


Ask to see her /.


And by the way we invited the New York Times to have an editor appear on this program /.

And by the way we invited <org>the New York Times</org> to have an editor appear on this program /.


The paper declined /.


When we come back media speculation run amuck over possible indictments at sixteen hundred Pennsylvania and the President 's scripted session with troops in Iraq /.

When we come back media speculation run amuck over possible indictments at sixteen hundred <fac>Pennsylvania</fac> and the President 's scripted session with troops in <gpe>Iraq</gpe> /.


Stay with us /.


Welcome back to Reliable Sources /.

Welcome back to <work_of_art>Reliable Sources</work_of_art> /.


As the CIA leak investigation continued this week media folks did plenty of speculating with no evidence about the possible indictment of a certain top White House official who testified before the grand jury for the fourth time on Friday /.

As the <org>CIA</org> leak investigation continued <date>this week</date> media folks did plenty of speculating with no evidence about the possible indictment of a certain top <org>White House</org> official who testified before the grand jury for the <ordinal>fourth</ordinal> time on <date>Friday</date> /.


Karl Rove his closest aide the number two man in the White House the man that has been called Bush 's brain /.

<person>Karl Rove</person> his closest aide the <cardinal>number two</cardinal> man in <org>the White House</org> the man that has been called <person>Bush</person> 's brain /.


If he 's indicted and has to go it undermines the key source of this President 's public support his character /.


If Rove gets indicted that could bring down the Bush administration I think /.

If <person>Rove</person> gets indicted that could bring down the <person>Bush</person> administration I think /.


My understanding from talking to somebody quite close to this investigation is that they think there are going to be indictments /.


and possibly Karl Rove could be among them /.

and possibly <person>Karl Rove</person> could be among them /.


Lucy Dalglish if Karl Rove is indicted , if Karl Rove is indicted , what if he 's not indicted /?

<person>Lucy Dalglish</person> if <person>Karl Rove</person> is indicted , if <person>Karl Rove</person> is indicted , what if he 's not indicted /?


Is n't this the worst kind of journalistic speculation /?


Yeah /.


You know I think it 's always dangerous to speculate whether or not you 're really besmirching someone 's reputation . Although I 'm not sure you can do that with Karl Rove /.

You know I think it 's always dangerous to speculate whether or not you 're really besmirching someone 's reputation . Although I 'm not sure you can do that with <person>Karl Rove</person> /.


But it uh is very very you know eh irre- /-


I would prefer that people keep an eye on you know watching him testify and going in and out of the courthouse /.


But uh will it bring down the administration /?


I do n't know /.


Ah eh I do n't know /.


Well nobody knows /.


That 's the point /.


Arianna Huffington I used to cover the justice department /.

<person>Arianna Huffington</person> I used to cover the justice department /.


Not everybody who 's under investigation winds up getting indicted /.


Ah but you certainly and you 're uh on a blog so maybe it 's a different standard have speculated about Rove 's fate as well /.

Ah but you certainly and you 're uh on a blog so maybe it 's a different standard have speculated about <person>Rove</person> 's fate as well /.


Well not just Rove though /.

Well not just <person>Rove</person> though /.


what we have speculated is that it might be a much more tangled web that Fitzgerald is after the whole Iraq White House group the group that uh in Cheney 's office with Libby and Rove and Mary Matalin and Condoleezza Rice and a lot of administration officials basically sold um a war to the American public based on lies /.

what we have speculated is that it might be a much more tangled web that <person>Fitzgerald</person> is after the whole <gpe>Iraq</gpe> <org>White House</org> group the group that uh in <person>Cheney</person> 's office with <person>Libby</person> and <person>Rove</person> and <person>Mary Matalin</person> and <person>Condoleezza Rice</person> and a lot of administration officials basically sold um a war to the <norp>American</norp> public based on lies /.


I mean that is really the web /.


But it seems and we find out today also from uh um the reporting on the Miller story , that uh Fitzgerald is after Cheney even in some of the questioning eh of Miller /.

But it seems and we find out <date>today</date> also from uh um the reporting on the <person>Miller</person> story , that uh <person>Fitzgerald</person> is after <person>Cheney</person> even in some of the questioning eh of <person>Miller</person> /.


I think those were fairly routine questions about /.


you have Judy Miller there /.

you have <person>Judy Miller</person> there /.


you ask about Cheney /. /.

you ask about <person>Cheney</person> /. /.


He was being thorough /.


I think we 're overthinking this whole thing /.


Karl Rove and this speculation business you know /.

<person>Karl Rove</person> and this speculation business you know /.


Frank Sesno /.


Pat Fitzgerald /.


It 's very easy to sit here and say oh we should never speculate in journalism /.


It 's irresponsible journalism /.


It 's really how you speculate not that you speculate /.


The fact of the matter is that Karl Rove has been to the grand jury four times /.

The fact of the matter is that <person>Karl Rove</person> has been to the grand jury <cardinal>four</cardinal> times /.


The fact of the matter is that there are lots of people in Washington and believe me they 're not all journalists who are speculating what if the guy gets indicted /.

The fact of the matter is that there are lots of people in <gpe>Washington</gpe> and believe me they 're not all journalists who are speculating what if the guy gets indicted /.


It would be irresponsible I think for the media not to reflect what the discussion is here in town /.


And there are plenty of Republicans mostly Republicans who are worried about this /.

And there are plenty of <norp>Republicans</norp> mostly <norp>Republicans</norp> who are worried about this /.


Alright I want to turn now to uh President Bush 's uh meeting uh uh photo op some called it with US troops in Iraq whether it was staged how shocking that would be /.

Alright I want to turn now to uh President <person>Bush</person> 's uh meeting uh uh photo op some called it with <gpe>US</gpe> troops in <gpe>Iraq</gpe> whether it was staged how shocking that would be /.


Let 's take a look at the actual footage /.


And in your interactions with the Iraqi civilians in Tikrit Saddam 's hometown how are they reacting to this political process /?

And in your interactions with the <norp>Iraqi</norp> civilians in <gpe>Tikrit</gpe> <person>Saddam</person> 's hometown how are they reacting to this political process /?


Sir in the north central area of Iraq voter registration has increased seventeen percent /.

Sir in the north central area of <gpe>Iraq</gpe> voter registration has increased <percent>seventeen percent</percent> /.


Can you give us a sense for the reception of the people there in Tikrit /?

Can you give us a sense for the reception of the people there in <gpe>Tikrit</gpe> /?


Sir in north central Iraq voter regis- /-

Sir in north central <gpe>Iraq</gpe> voter regis- /-


Are you stunned /?


Shocked /.


I ca n't believe it /.


they rehearsed it /.


They rehearsed it /.


Yeah you know something /?


uh I remember a long time ago Michael Deaver the ultimate image meister for Ronald Reagan said my job is to light the President well and for everything I do to put the President in a good light /.

uh I remember a long time ago <person>Michael Deaver</person> the ultimate image meister for <person>Ronald Reagan</person> said my job is to light the President well and for everything I do to put the President in a good light /.


Now look first of all this is uncomfortable to see /.

Now look <ordinal>first</ordinal> of all this is uncomfortable to see /.


and what the problem this now creates for the White House is {is} it plays into the credibility issue that the President has that everything now is becoming a photo op and a rehearsed event in order to rescue what are tumbling numbers on his performance on public support of Iraq the whole bit /.

and what the problem this now creates for <org>the White House</org> is {is} it plays into the credibility issue that the President has that everything now is becoming a photo op and a rehearsed event in order to rescue what are tumbling numbers on his performance on public support of <gpe>Iraq</gpe> the whole bit /.


But the fact that anybody would think that you would do something like this a remote /.


I mean anybody in television will tell you that 's complicated business /.


You have satellite delay /.


You have a half a dozen people sitting there /.

You have <cardinal>a half a dozen</cardinal> people sitting there /.


Who 's going to speak when /.


You do n't want awkward silences /.


You 're going to walk through it /.


so that it happened does n't surprise me /.


That it hurts the President yeah that 's inevitable too /.


Arianna Huffington does the staging here surprise you at all /?

<person>Arianna Huffington</person> does the staging here surprise you at all /?


Well it 's not the question of surpising me Howie /.

Well it 's not the question of surpising me <person>Howie</person> /.


It 's the fact that we are talking about war /.


This is not just any photo opportunity /.


Of course that 's part and parcel of the presidency /.


But we 're talking about a war in which almost two thousand young Americans have died /.

But we 're talking about a war in which <cardinal>almost two thousand</cardinal> young <norp>Americans</norp> have died /.


And we are also using soldiers as props /.


Yes it is shocking /.


and I think Keith Olbermann did a phenomenal job at exposing this on MSNBC /.

and I think <person>Keith Olbermann</person> did a phenomenal job at exposing this on <org>MSNBC</org> /.


Alright /.


And I think more and more journalists are actually taking a hard look at what this administration is doing /.


And we 'll have to leave it there /.


Last word /.


Arianna Huffington Lucy Dalglish in Minneapolis Frank Sesno thanks so very much for joining us /.

<person>Arianna Huffington</person> <person>Lucy Dalglish</person> in <gpe>Minneapolis</gpe> <person>Frank Sesno</person> thanks so very much for joining us /.


Coming up , we launch our new segment Talk Back to the Media /.

Coming up , we launch our new segment <work_of_art>Talk Back to the Media</work_of_art> /.


President Clinton 's former lawyer Lanny Davis takes on Sixty Minutes and ex-FBI director Louis Freeh /.

President <person>Clinton</person> 's former lawyer <person>Lanny Davis</person> takes on <org>Sixty Minutes</org> and <org>ex-FBI</org> director <person>Louis Freeh</person> /.


And still to come New York Times columnist Tom Friedman /.

And still to come <org>New York Times</org> columnist <person>Tom Friedman</person> /.


Welcome back /.


In our new Talk Back to the Media segment someone who believes he or she 's been treated unfairly by the press gets the chance to sound off and give their side of the controversy /.

In our new <work_of_art>Talk Back to the Media</work_of_art> segment someone who believes he or she 's been treated unfairly by the press gets the chance to sound off and give their side of the controversy /.


Last Sunday Mike Wallace sat down with Louis Freeh who 's peddling a memoir on Sixty Minutes /.

<date>Last Sunday</date> <person>Mike Wallace</person> sat down with <person>Louis Freeh</person> who 's peddling a memoir on <work_of_art>Sixty Minutes</work_of_art> /.


and the former FBI director unloaded on the President who appointed him Bill Clinton /.

and the former <org>FBI</org> director unloaded on the President who appointed him <person>Bill Clinton</person> /.


Among his criticisms the former president 's handling of the nineteen ninety - six Khobar Towers terrorist bombing that killed nineteen US marines in Saudi Arabia /.

Among his criticisms the former president 's handling of the <date>nineteen ninety - six</date> <fac>Khobar Towers</fac> terrorist bombing that killed <cardinal>nineteen</cardinal> <gpe>US</gpe> marines in <gpe>Saudi Arabia</gpe> /.


I was very disappointed that the political leadership of the United States uh would tell the families of these nineteen heroes that we were going to leave no stone unturned and find the people who killed them /.

I was very disappointed that the political leadership of <gpe>the United States</gpe> uh would tell the families of these <cardinal>nineteen</cardinal> heroes that we were going to leave no stone unturned and find the people who killed them /.


to give that order to the director because that 's the order that I got and then to do nothing to assist and facilitate that investigation in fact to undermine it /.


The Clinton people were furious at the way Sixty Minutes hailed the segment /.

The <person>Clinton</person> people were furious at the way <org>Sixty Minutes</org> hailed the segment /.


and here to talk back is former Clinton White House attorney Lanny Davis /.

and here to talk back is former <person>Clinton</person> <org>White House</org> attorney <person>Lanny Davis</person> /.


Welcome /.


Let 's deal with the substance first /.

Let 's deal with the substance <ordinal>first</ordinal> /.


Louis Freeh says that when Clinton met with Crown Prince Abdullah in nineteen ninety - eight , he did n't press for FBI access to suspects in the Khobar Towers bombing and he hit up the prince for a contribution to his presidential library /.

<person>Louis Freeh</person> says that when <person>Clinton</person> met with <person>Crown Prince Abdullah</person> in <date>nineteen ninety - eight</date> , he did n't press for <org>FBI</org> access to suspects in the <fac>Khobar Towers</fac> bombing and he hit up the prince for a contribution to his presidential library /.


Well not only is that false and President Clinton has said so but everybody who attended the meeting not including Louis Freeh says it 's false /.

Well not only is that false and President <person>Clinton</person> has said so but everybody who attended the meeting not including <person>Louis Freeh</person> says it 's false /.


And my problem with Sixty Minutes is that they never called anybody at the meeting /.


Until Friday afternoon we did n't even know the charge was being made /.

Until <time>Friday afternoon</time> we did n't even know the charge was being made /.


And even then they were unwilling to put somebody on the air to contradict Mister Freeh /.

And even then they were unwilling to put somebody on the air to contradict Mister <person>Freeh</person> /.


Sixty Minutes says Bill Clinton was offered a chance to come on and give his rebuttal /.

<org>Sixty Minutes</org> says <person>Bill Clinton</person> was offered a chance to come on and give his rebuttal /.


What 's wrong with that /?


Well first of all it 's absolutely amazing that Sixty Minutes thinks it 's okay to air a false and malicious statement /.

Well <ordinal>first</ordinal> of all it 's absolutely amazing that <org>Sixty Minutes</org> thinks it 's okay to air a false and malicious statement /.


This is a terrible charge that an FBI investigation was thwarted because President Clinton wanted to receive money for his library /.

This is a terrible charge that an <org>FBI</org> investigation was thwarted because President <person>Clinton</person> wanted to receive money for his library /.


The charge was false /.


and the only way that that can be countered is a former president of the United States /?

and the only way that that can be countered is a former president of <gpe>the United States</gpe> /?


What about anybody at the meeting who was willing to be on /?


What about them doing reporting themselves before they air a false and demonstrably false charge /?


That 's my problem /.


What about Sandy Berger the former national security advisor under President Clinton /?

What about <person>Sandy Berger</person> the former national security advisor under President <person>Clinton</person> /?


He was at the meeting /.


He was in the room /.


Did you offer him for an on - camera interview /?


Well on Friday afternoon /.

Well on <time>Friday afternoon</time> /.


You were n't there /.


I was not there /.


You 're good on television /.


but you were n't there /.


uh I talked to Sandy Berger /.

uh I talked to <person>Sandy Berger</person> /.


We issued a statement from Mister Berger /.

We issued a statement from Mister <person>Berger</person> /.


but this was Friday afternoon when we first learned about it with Sunday broadcast /.

but this was <time>Friday afternoon</time> when we <ordinal>first</ordinal> learned about it with <date>Sunday</date> broadcast /.


Why did n't Sixty Minutes invite Mister Berger or other people at the meeting before Friday afternoon /?

Why did n't <org>Sixty Minutes</org> invite Mister <person>Berger</person> or other people at the meeting before <time>Friday afternoon</time> /?


Why did it take us to get Sixty Minutes to do basic reporting to verify facts /?

Why did it take us to get <org>Sixty Minutes</org> to do basic reporting to verify facts /?


It 's not enough to have Louis Freeh say something is so based on an anonymous source /.

It 's not enough to have <person>Louis Freeh</person> say something is so based on an anonymous source /.


That 's poor journalism /.


On that point let me read a statement from a Sixty Minutes spokesman /.

On that point let me read a statement from a <org>Sixty Minutes</org> spokesman /.


And this involves uh their saying that they contacted Clinton 's office back in August with a detailed list of charges and then quote in subsequent phone calls the President 's people said he did not want to be interviewed /.

And this involves uh their saying that they contacted <person>Clinton</person> 's office back in <date>August</date> with a detailed list of charges and then quote in subsequent phone calls the President 's people said he did not want to be interviewed /.


They gave no +substantive response to any of the allegations until Lanny Davis launched his PR campaign on the Thursday before the broadcast and offered himself as the person from the camp who would merely disparage and attack Freeh rather than deal with his allegations /.

They gave no +substantive response to any of the allegations until <person>Lanny Davis</person> launched his PR campaign on <date>the Thursday before the broadcast</date> and offered himself as the person from the camp who would merely disparage and attack <person>Freeh</person> rather than deal with his allegations /.


Denials from President Clinton and Sandy Berger that did deal with Freeh 's allegations were included in the Sixty Minutes report /.

Denials from President <person>Clinton</person> and <person>Sandy Berger</person> that did deal with <person>Freeh</person> 's allegations were included in the <work_of_art>Sixty Minutes</work_of_art> report /.