[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very interested in traveling and working abroad, and I was interested in I eventually having a career in related to economic development. I was very interested in Africa. I thought about applying to various other jobs, like with some of the nonprofits or NGOs, and they weren't really interested in taking someone right out of college. But the Peace Corps, of course, was.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, gosh, I'm sure I've been aware of the Peace Corps. Most of you know, most of my life, certainly from high school. I remember, you know, hearing about it, hearing about John F. Kennedy's famous speech in Ann Arbor. I'm originally from Michigan, so I was from Grand Rapids, Michigan. And when I was an undergrad at Johns Hopkins University, just near here. I took international studies and I, you know, talk to the various counselors and professors telling them that I wanted to have a career related to economic development. And sort of my main faculty advisor suggested the Peace Corps as it was probably being the best way to get started.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was happy. I was actually I was relieved. I was afraid. You know, I had tried to apply to some of these other things, like care or I can't even remember a bunch of places. And even I had a cousin who was living in Zimbabwe doing work with some of the refugee camps there. And even he wrote back and said, no, I can't just hire you right out of college. So I was I was relieved that I was able to go into the Peace Corps and have that experience to sort of launch my career.

[Assistant] So when you got accepted, where you're did you have any preferences of where you wanted to go or what you want to do or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh, I'm sure I've been aware of the Peace Corps. Most of you know, most of my life, certainly from high school. I remember, you know, hearing about it, hearing about John F. Kennedy's famous speech in Ann Arbor. I'm originally from Michigan, so I was from Grand Rapids, Michigan. And when I was an undergrad at Johns Hopkins University, just near here. I took international studies and I, you know, talk to the various counselors and professors telling them that I wanted to have a career related to economic development. And sort of my main faculty advisor suggested the Peace Corps as it was probably being the best way to get started.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was happy. I was actually I was relieved. I was afraid. You know, I had tried to apply to some of these other things, like care or I can't even remember a bunch of places. And even I had a cousin who was living in Zimbabwe doing work with some of the refugee camps there. And even he wrote back and said, no, I can't just hire you right out of college. So I was I was relieved that I was able to go into the Peace Corps and have that experience to sort of launch my career.

[Assistant] So when you got accepted, where you're did you have any preferences of where you wanted to go or what you want to do or?

[User] Yeah, actually, I was most interested in Africa. And I had sort of indicated that, as I recall, somewhere along the line in the process, they indicated, you know, I might be able to have a position in Africa or in Latin America or maybe it was, I think also maybe South Korea or something like that. And I said I was most interested in Africa.

[Assistant] Why was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was happy. I was actually I was relieved. I was afraid. You know, I had tried to apply to some of these other things, like care or I can't even remember a bunch of places. And even I had a cousin who was living in Zimbabwe doing work with some of the refugee camps there. And even he wrote back and said, no, I can't just hire you right out of college. So I was I was relieved that I was able to go into the Peace Corps and have that experience to sort of launch my career.

[Assistant] So when you got accepted, where you're did you have any preferences of where you wanted to go or what you want to do or?

[User] Yeah, actually, I was most interested in Africa. And I had sort of indicated that, as I recall, somewhere along the line in the process, they indicated, you know, I might be able to have a position in Africa or in Latin America or maybe it was, I think also maybe South Korea or something like that. And I said I was most interested in Africa.

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] I don't know. It is it just sort of a feeling of curiosity and interest. I was very interested in African history. I had taken some African history courses and I loved music from Africa and some of the then heads of state like Julius Nyerere and in Tanzania. And so I thought, that's where I want to go.

[Assistant] Did your family travel a lot before when you were in school or before then or had you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, actually, I was most interested in Africa. And I had sort of indicated that, as I recall, somewhere along the line in the process, they indicated, you know, I might be able to have a position in Africa or in Latin America or maybe it was, I think also maybe South Korea or something like that. And I said I was most interested in Africa.

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] I don't know. It is it just sort of a feeling of curiosity and interest. I was very interested in African history. I had taken some African history courses and I loved music from Africa and some of the then heads of state like Julius Nyerere and in Tanzania. And so I thought, that's where I want to go.

[Assistant] Did your family travel a lot before when you were in school or before then or had you?

[User] I had not had much opportunity to travel. My dad had been in the Navy and the South Pacific in World War Two. And my sister and brother in law also were sort of a Navy family for a while and they were stationed in the Philippines. We couldn't really afford to travel. I had only had one other experience in college during one of the spring breaks, I had an opportunity to attend a conference in Kingston, Jamaica, for a week or so, which I did. And that was pretty exciting. And so I thought, yeah, I can do this.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted, did they ask you or did you have a preference of what you would do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. It is it just sort of a feeling of curiosity and interest. I was very interested in African history. I had taken some African history courses and I loved music from Africa and some of the then heads of state like Julius Nyerere and in Tanzania. And so I thought, that's where I want to go.

[Assistant] Did your family travel a lot before when you were in school or before then or had you?

[User] I had not had much opportunity to travel. My dad had been in the Navy and the South Pacific in World War Two. And my sister and brother in law also were sort of a Navy family for a while and they were stationed in the Philippines. We couldn't really afford to travel. I had only had one other experience in college during one of the spring breaks, I had an opportunity to attend a conference in Kingston, Jamaica, for a week or so, which I did. And that was pretty exciting. And so I thought, yeah, I can do this.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted, did they ask you or did you have a preference of what you would do?

[User] I probably yeah, I was not actually all that eager to be a teacher. I had visions of me doing something more, I don't know, profound, but oh, yes, I had some odd notions. But could I probably just because so many people were going in as teachers and especially English teachers and I sort of thought I can do that. Yeah, I studied economics. I want to do something that's, you know, more closely related to the profession I was aiming for because I was not really ever aiming to become a teacher as a profession for me. So this was get into the Peace Corps for the international experience and ultimately, you know, figure out what it is that they can have me do that would fit in.

[Assistant] So at that time, did you have an idea of what you wanted to be doing in the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had not had much opportunity to travel. My dad had been in the Navy and the South Pacific in World War Two. And my sister and brother in law also were sort of a Navy family for a while and they were stationed in the Philippines. We couldn't really afford to travel. I had only had one other experience in college during one of the spring breaks, I had an opportunity to attend a conference in Kingston, Jamaica, for a week or so, which I did. And that was pretty exciting. And so I thought, yeah, I can do this.

[Assistant] So when you were accepted, did they ask you or did you have a preference of what you would do?

[User] I probably yeah, I was not actually all that eager to be a teacher. I had visions of me doing something more, I don't know, profound, but oh, yes, I had some odd notions. But could I probably just because so many people were going in as teachers and especially English teachers and I sort of thought I can do that. Yeah, I studied economics. I want to do something that's, you know, more closely related to the profession I was aiming for because I was not really ever aiming to become a teacher as a profession for me. So this was get into the Peace Corps for the international experience and ultimately, you know, figure out what it is that they can have me do that would fit in.

[Assistant] So at that time, did you have an idea of what you wanted to be doing in the future?

[User] Yeah, I did want to be an economist, and so I actually did have already have in mind that I thought what I would like to work for the World Bank or something like that and be involved in economic development in terms of policy, you know, government policy, economic policies, you know, building up infrastructure, building up, you know, all kinds of things to improve the well-being of people and in a poor country.

[Assistant] So you graduated from college and did thinking about that future vision of yourself, how did you see the Peace Corps fitting into that then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I probably yeah, I was not actually all that eager to be a teacher. I had visions of me doing something more, I don't know, profound, but oh, yes, I had some odd notions. But could I probably just because so many people were going in as teachers and especially English teachers and I sort of thought I can do that. Yeah, I studied economics. I want to do something that's, you know, more closely related to the profession I was aiming for because I was not really ever aiming to become a teacher as a profession for me. So this was get into the Peace Corps for the international experience and ultimately, you know, figure out what it is that they can have me do that would fit in.

[Assistant] So at that time, did you have an idea of what you wanted to be doing in the future?

[User] Yeah, I did want to be an economist, and so I actually did have already have in mind that I thought what I would like to work for the World Bank or something like that and be involved in economic development in terms of policy, you know, government policy, economic policies, you know, building up infrastructure, building up, you know, all kinds of things to improve the well-being of people and in a poor country.

[Assistant] So you graduated from college and did thinking about that future vision of yourself, how did you see the Peace Corps fitting into that then?

[User] Well, I understood that it was definitely a good idea to build up some experience living and working abroad. And definitely, you know, since I had been sort of trying to just get hired directly into these positions and they I they wouldn't take me. So I understood that Peace Corps is probably my best bet.

[Assistant] Interesting. So where were you trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I understood that it was definitely a good idea to build up some experience living and working abroad. And definitely, you know, since I had been sort of trying to just get hired directly into these positions and they I they wouldn't take me. So I understood that Peace Corps is probably my best bet.

[Assistant] Interesting. So where were you trained?

[User] The Peace Corps training?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Colorado. We went to Colorado. It was for a week, I think. I think it was in June.

[Assistant] Where? University or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Peace Corps training?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Colorado. We went to Colorado. It was for a week, I think. I think it was in June.

[Assistant] Where? University or?

[User] No, it was. It was actually up in the mountains. And they did that deliberately because Botswana is, you know, a fairly high plateau. And they wanted to give us a little taste of, you know, a relatively high altitude just in case that would be a problem for anybody.

[Assistant] So when you finish your training, did you feel you were prepared for your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Colorado. We went to Colorado. It was for a week, I think. I think it was in June.

[Assistant] Where? University or?

[User] No, it was. It was actually up in the mountains. And they did that deliberately because Botswana is, you know, a fairly high plateau. And they wanted to give us a little taste of, you know, a relatively high altitude just in case that would be a problem for anybody.

[Assistant] So when you finish your training, did you feel you were prepared for your assignment?

[User] Yes, I wasn't, but I thought I was.

[Assistant] And how old were you then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was. It was actually up in the mountains. And they did that deliberately because Botswana is, you know, a fairly high plateau. And they wanted to give us a little taste of, you know, a relatively high altitude just in case that would be a problem for anybody.

[Assistant] So when you finish your training, did you feel you were prepared for your assignment?

[User] Yes, I wasn't, but I thought I was.

[Assistant] And how old were you then?

[User] 22.

[Assistant] 22. So you were very young then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I wasn't, but I thought I was.

[Assistant] And how old were you then?

[User] 22.

[Assistant] 22. So you were very young then?

[User] Yeah, I was right out of college.

[Assistant] Right. So what was your initial entry into the country to Botswana like? I mean, how did that happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 22.

[Assistant] 22. So you were very young then?

[User] Yeah, I was right out of college.

[Assistant] Right. So what was your initial entry into the country to Botswana like? I mean, how did that happen?

[User] This was it was in a very unfortunate situation because President Seretse Khama, who is the father of the country, had just died and he had been president for quite a while and, you know, beloved in the country, as you know, the founding father of the modern country of Botswana. And so we arrived in a period of mourning in the country and they put us up. It was during the winter break for the University of Botswana.

[Assistant] That’s where you were assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was right out of college.

[Assistant] Right. So what was your initial entry into the country to Botswana like? I mean, how did that happen?

[User] This was it was in a very unfortunate situation because President Seretse Khama, who is the father of the country, had just died and he had been president for quite a while and, you know, beloved in the country, as you know, the founding father of the modern country of Botswana. And so we arrived in a period of mourning in the country and they put us up. It was during the winter break for the University of Botswana.

[Assistant] That’s where you were assigned?

[User] Yes. Well, no, we were that's where we started out for training, I think, in country language training and so on. So it was a period of mourning. And they asked us to, you know, be mindful of that and to not just, you know, be boisterous or rowdy or anything like that, to be respectful of the feelings of everybody. We're really, you know, this was a shock to the country and deep mourning. And so we really were constrained to, you know, behave in a way that would not disturb anybody's feelings.

[Assistant] And how long were you in that sort of training program in country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the job. Yes. I was supposed to be a math teacher in what they called a community secondary school. So they already had a number of government secondary schools scattered around the country. But they really didn't have the capacity to take in the numbers of students. There was demand. And so they started on sort of another tier of education, which would be somewhat subsidized. But it was really up to the community to start up these schools and to bring them together. So in this community, Mahalapye, the founder of the school, was actually also the head of the opposition party and a communist, Communist Party. And he started up this community secondary school. But I mean, he's not the kind of communist who is like, you know, die hard Soviet or anything like that. He was just of, you know, more of a Marxist philosopher, shall we say, and he was delighted to hear that he could get some Peace Corps teachers to come and teach in his school.

[Assistant] He was, this is the principal?

[User] He wasn't the principal. He was the like the superintendent. But he was the he was sort of the founder, the sponsor of the school. And then he hired a principal and there was a board and then they hired teachers. And so the school was relatively young already. It was only a couple of years old. And my and other Peace Corps volunteer and I were the first Americans first volunteers, outsiders to be brought into that particular school.

[Assistant] And this was in which town?

[User] Mahalapye.

[Assistant] Mahalapye. OK, so can you help us understand some of the experiences that you had during that placement? Or that was just that you didn't actually this is that still training? Where were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He wasn't the principal. He was the like the superintendent. But he was the he was sort of the founder, the sponsor of the school. And then he hired a principal and there was a board and then they hired teachers. And so the school was relatively young already. It was only a couple of years old. And my and other Peace Corps volunteer and I were the first Americans first volunteers, outsiders to be brought into that particular school.

[Assistant] And this was in which town?

[User] Mahalapye.

[Assistant] Mahalapye. OK, so can you help us understand some of the experiences that you had during that placement? Or that was just that you didn't actually this is that still training? Where were you?

[User] Now, know, that was that was the actual teaching.

[Assistant] The actual teaching. So can you share with us some of the experiences you had during your two years there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mahalapye.

[Assistant] Mahalapye. OK, so can you help us understand some of the experiences that you had during that placement? Or that was just that you didn't actually this is that still training? Where were you?

[User] Now, know, that was that was the actual teaching.

[Assistant] The actual teaching. So can you share with us some of the experiences you had during your two years there?

[User] Yeah, it was a mixed bag. And so it started out they had recruited me as a math teacher. But when I got there, I it was we found out that they actually had math teachers, but they were short on teachers for a subject that they called development studies. And this would be like in the United States social studies. But it was in the context of a developing country. And but it was a similar mix of history, geography, sociology, economics, you know, an introductory social studies course.

[Assistant] So tell us a little bit about the school or the number of students and where you lived. And how that all worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, know, that was that was the actual teaching.

[Assistant] The actual teaching. So can you share with us some of the experiences you had during your two years there?

[User] Yeah, it was a mixed bag. And so it started out they had recruited me as a math teacher. But when I got there, I it was we found out that they actually had math teachers, but they were short on teachers for a subject that they called development studies. And this would be like in the United States social studies. But it was in the context of a developing country. And but it was a similar mix of history, geography, sociology, economics, you know, an introductory social studies course.

[Assistant] So tell us a little bit about the school or the number of students and where you lived. And how that all worked.

[User] Oh, boy, that's a long story. The school the school was responsible for our housing. That was that was their contribution to having Peace Corps volunteers, teachers there. So they rented a compound that had two huts in it. I and I went with another guy who had been in the same incoming Peace Corps group, Joel Simon, and he was teaching science. And so there were two huts there. There was a cement block and sort of two room tin roof hut and a smaller mud walled thatch hot. And I decided I, I would actually prefer the mud walled thatch hut, that being thatch being actually a nicer insulation than a tin roof. And also I thought it was more authentic and cozy and all these things. So I got the mud hut and then we shared an outhouse in the back and there was a standpipe in the front.

[Assistant] The standpipe for water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was a mixed bag. And so it started out they had recruited me as a math teacher. But when I got there, I it was we found out that they actually had math teachers, but they were short on teachers for a subject that they called development studies. And this would be like in the United States social studies. But it was in the context of a developing country. And but it was a similar mix of history, geography, sociology, economics, you know, an introductory social studies course.

[Assistant] So tell us a little bit about the school or the number of students and where you lived. And how that all worked.

[User] Oh, boy, that's a long story. The school the school was responsible for our housing. That was that was their contribution to having Peace Corps volunteers, teachers there. So they rented a compound that had two huts in it. I and I went with another guy who had been in the same incoming Peace Corps group, Joel Simon, and he was teaching science. And so there were two huts there. There was a cement block and sort of two room tin roof hut and a smaller mud walled thatch hot. And I decided I, I would actually prefer the mud walled thatch hut, that being thatch being actually a nicer insulation than a tin roof. And also I thought it was more authentic and cozy and all these things. So I got the mud hut and then we shared an outhouse in the back and there was a standpipe in the front.

[Assistant] The standpipe for water?

[User] Water. Yeah. So no running, no running water in either of the houses.

[Assistant] And so you were just in the one house in this hut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, boy, that's a long story. The school the school was responsible for our housing. That was that was their contribution to having Peace Corps volunteers, teachers there. So they rented a compound that had two huts in it. I and I went with another guy who had been in the same incoming Peace Corps group, Joel Simon, and he was teaching science. And so there were two huts there. There was a cement block and sort of two room tin roof hut and a smaller mud walled thatch hot. And I decided I, I would actually prefer the mud walled thatch hut, that being thatch being actually a nicer insulation than a tin roof. And also I thought it was more authentic and cozy and all these things. So I got the mud hut and then we shared an outhouse in the back and there was a standpipe in the front.

[Assistant] The standpipe for water?

[User] Water. Yeah. So no running, no running water in either of the houses.

[Assistant] And so you were just in the one house in this hut?

[User] Hut, yeah. One room. Mine was one room.

[Assistant] So are they round or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Water. Yeah. So no running, no running water in either of the houses.

[Assistant] And so you were just in the one house in this hut?

[User] Hut, yeah. One room. Mine was one room.

[Assistant] So are they round or?

[User] Yes, it was called a rondavel. And it was it was round. It was just big enough for a single bed, a table, a bookshelf, a little two burner cookstove. That was really it.

[Assistant] What about nighttime? What did you? Could you see? Was it light?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hut, yeah. One room. Mine was one room.

[Assistant] So are they round or?

[User] Yes, it was called a rondavel. And it was it was round. It was just big enough for a single bed, a table, a bookshelf, a little two burner cookstove. That was really it.

[Assistant] What about nighttime? What did you? Could you see? Was it light?

[User] We had to rely on kerosene lanterns and candles.

[Assistant] The petromax or whatever you call them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was called a rondavel. And it was it was round. It was just big enough for a single bed, a table, a bookshelf, a little two burner cookstove. That was really it.

[Assistant] What about nighttime? What did you? Could you see? Was it light?

[User] We had to rely on kerosene lanterns and candles.

[Assistant] The petromax or whatever you call them?

[User] They had these sort of gas burner things where you would put in a mantle and the gas would flow through the mantle and you would light that. And that could be very bright. But they were kind of fragile. And if they got knocked around, then it would break and you'd have to get a new mantle. So I was sort of I sort of gave up on that. And so I was more of a good old fashioned kerosene lantern and candles. And that's what I used for light. Yeah. And I'd have to take a bucket out the standpipe outside and haul in the water. So if I wanted to bathe, there was a big galvanized tub and what I would do is I would bring in the water, put it into a pot, a regular cooking pot on the stove, warm up some hot water, mix it with some cool water in a little basin and sit in this galvanized tub.

[Assistant] In your thatched hut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to rely on kerosene lanterns and candles.

[Assistant] The petromax or whatever you call them?

[User] They had these sort of gas burner things where you would put in a mantle and the gas would flow through the mantle and you would light that. And that could be very bright. But they were kind of fragile. And if they got knocked around, then it would break and you'd have to get a new mantle. So I was sort of I sort of gave up on that. And so I was more of a good old fashioned kerosene lantern and candles. And that's what I used for light. Yeah. And I'd have to take a bucket out the standpipe outside and haul in the water. So if I wanted to bathe, there was a big galvanized tub and what I would do is I would bring in the water, put it into a pot, a regular cooking pot on the stove, warm up some hot water, mix it with some cool water in a little basin and sit in this galvanized tub.

[Assistant] In your thatched hut.

[User] Yes, in my thatched hut. And do a really glorified sponge bath. That was it most days.

[Assistant] And that was for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had these sort of gas burner things where you would put in a mantle and the gas would flow through the mantle and you would light that. And that could be very bright. But they were kind of fragile. And if they got knocked around, then it would break and you'd have to get a new mantle. So I was sort of I sort of gave up on that. And so I was more of a good old fashioned kerosene lantern and candles. And that's what I used for light. Yeah. And I'd have to take a bucket out the standpipe outside and haul in the water. So if I wanted to bathe, there was a big galvanized tub and what I would do is I would bring in the water, put it into a pot, a regular cooking pot on the stove, warm up some hot water, mix it with some cool water in a little basin and sit in this galvanized tub.

[Assistant] In your thatched hut.

[User] Yes, in my thatched hut. And do a really glorified sponge bath. That was it most days.

[Assistant] And that was for two years?

[User] Yes. Better part of two years.

[Assistant] It must have been a good experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in my thatched hut. And do a really glorified sponge bath. That was it most days.

[Assistant] And that was for two years?

[User] Yes. Better part of two years.

[Assistant] It must have been a good experience.

[User] It was interesting. I did hire out laundry. I tried at one point to do my own laundry and very quickly discovered that, you know, it was just I didn't have the calluses that you would need on your hands. It was you know, I was getting blisters. And so I hired that out to a neighbor.

[Assistant] I guess, was there such a thing as cleaning or do you just use a broom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Better part of two years.

[Assistant] It must have been a good experience.

[User] It was interesting. I did hire out laundry. I tried at one point to do my own laundry and very quickly discovered that, you know, it was just I didn't have the calluses that you would need on your hands. It was you know, I was getting blisters. And so I hired that out to a neighbor.

[Assistant] I guess, was there such a thing as cleaning or do you just use a broom?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Around the house, you know, you're on your own. This is just one room. I mean, you know, how much work is it.

[Assistant] Well, I've never experienced that, so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was interesting. I did hire out laundry. I tried at one point to do my own laundry and very quickly discovered that, you know, it was just I didn't have the calluses that you would need on your hands. It was you know, I was getting blisters. And so I hired that out to a neighbor.

[Assistant] I guess, was there such a thing as cleaning or do you just use a broom?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Around the house, you know, you're on your own. This is just one room. I mean, you know, how much work is it.

[Assistant] Well, I've never experienced that, so.

[User] Yeah, just a broom and rags to dust and stuff.

[Assistant] So are there some experiences you had with your students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, just a broom and rags to dust and stuff.

[Assistant] So are there some experiences you had with your students?

[User] I found it really challenging.

[Assistant] How so?

[User]
In particular, well the classes were pretty big. They were usually about 35 to 38. I think somewhere along the line I probably had a class of maybe 40 for a while and in in theory the kids were sort of strange. So they did have sort of, you know, classes that were considered to be higher level students in it, mostly meaning that these were kids who spoke reasonable English and understood English reasonably well. But then other classes, the kids were, you know, struggling more with English. And I had to teach in English my Setswana. I did learn Setswana, but only a bit. And I wasn't fluent in it. And in any event, they wanted you to teach in English. This was kind of what they wanted. So I would have to, you know, slow down quite a bit. It took a while for me to figure out how to speak in a way that the students could understand, because if I were just rattling along like this, like an American kid, I just thought, like, la la la. And I could figure out that that they didn't really a lot of them didn't understand. So and you'd start out and you'd say something like, do you understand? And then they would all say, yes ma, but you would you know, you get the sense that this wasn't true.

And eventually I I figured out that I should pause more often. And if I asked that question, I said, do you understand? If they said, yes ma, then that meant no. But if they said, ehey ma, then I knew, oh actually yes. That then they were you know, they were more enthusiastic. And that was they were actually responding in really their own language, Setswana. And that was actually an indication that they did understand.

[Assistant] And were these what were you students from that area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I found it really challenging.

[Assistant] How so?

[User]
In particular, well the classes were pretty big. They were usually about 35 to 38. I think somewhere along the line I probably had a class of maybe 40 for a while and in in theory the kids were sort of strange. So they did have sort of, you know, classes that were considered to be higher level students in it, mostly meaning that these were kids who spoke reasonable English and understood English reasonably well. But then other classes, the kids were, you know, struggling more with English. And I had to teach in English my Setswana. I did learn Setswana, but only a bit. And I wasn't fluent in it. And in any event, they wanted you to teach in English. This was kind of what they wanted. So I would have to, you know, slow down quite a bit. It took a while for me to figure out how to speak in a way that the students could understand, because if I were just rattling along like this, like an American kid, I just thought, like, la la la. And I could figure out that that they didn't really a lot of them didn't understand. So and you'd start out and you'd say something like, do you understand? And then they would all say, yes ma, but you would you know, you get the sense that this wasn't true.

And eventually I I figured out that I should pause more often. And if I asked that question, I said, do you understand? If they said, yes ma, then that meant no. But if they said, ehey ma, then I knew, oh actually yes. That then they were you know, they were more enthusiastic. And that was they were actually responding in really their own language, Setswana. And that was actually an indication that they did understand.

[Assistant] And were these what were you students from that area?

[User] Yeah, they were. Like, yeah, they were from the town or nearby villages.

[Assistant] How about the distribution of boys and girls? I mean, was it about equal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they were. Like, yeah, they were from the town or nearby villages.

[Assistant] How about the distribution of boys and girls? I mean, was it about equal?

[User] That was about equal. And in fact, if anything in Botswana, it might have been a slight, slightly higher number of girls because the boys tended to be sent off, you know, at the age of 10 or 11, they were more likely to be sent off to the cattle posts. And girls were allowed essentially to stay home and continue with their education. So there was a slight majority of girls.

[Assistant] And how do you think you were received by the other teachers, particularly the Botswana teachers?

[User] I guess that was sort of a mix of some of them I got along with very well. And they were helpful and supportive. Others of them were a little more standoffish, you might say. And there was, you know, like any organization there, there was they had their own internal politics. And so we weren't really part of that. And I don't think anyone really expected us to, really. But there were sort of factions and clicks and so on. And so we just sort of tried to stay out of that. But it was you know, it was not healthy for the school to have that kind of free action within the ranks of the teachers.

[Assistant] And we're just two Peace Corps volunteers there at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was about equal. And in fact, if anything in Botswana, it might have been a slight, slightly higher number of girls because the boys tended to be sent off, you know, at the age of 10 or 11, they were more likely to be sent off to the cattle posts. And girls were allowed essentially to stay home and continue with their education. So there was a slight majority of girls.

[Assistant] And how do you think you were received by the other teachers, particularly the Botswana teachers?

[User] I guess that was sort of a mix of some of them I got along with very well. And they were helpful and supportive. Others of them were a little more standoffish, you might say. And there was, you know, like any organization there, there was they had their own internal politics. And so we weren't really part of that. And I don't think anyone really expected us to, really. But there were sort of factions and clicks and so on. And so we just sort of tried to stay out of that. But it was you know, it was not healthy for the school to have that kind of free action within the ranks of the teachers.

[Assistant] And we're just two Peace Corps volunteers there at?

[User] First year, and then we got some more. So the school was growing and so we got another Peace Corps volunteer. And then there was also a Canadian who showed up. A couple Canadians, I think so. These were where we have. And we got a couple of British towards the end. A couple of British, yeah.

[Assistant] And was there a town is this right in a town or was it near?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First year, and then we got some more. So the school was growing and so we got another Peace Corps volunteer. And then there was also a Canadian who showed up. A couple Canadians, I think so. These were where we have. And we got a couple of British towards the end. A couple of British, yeah.

[Assistant] And was there a town is this right in a town or was it near?

[User] Right on the edge. Yeah, right on the edge of a town and it was a big town.

[Assistant] What's big?

[User] Mahalapye, depending upon the season. If it was you know, if they, if people were out in their fields, that was one thing. But in the in the winter months, it would be close to forty thousand, which is really big. But it was at the time it was still considered a quote unquote traditional village just because there was nothing much modern there. I mean, the rail line was going through there in the main highway was going through there and it was actually designated as a place that should become more modern and that the government would sort of invest in the infrastructure to encourage more modern economic activities. But at the time we were there, it was, you know, that was just barely starting.

[Assistant] So does that mean that the town didn't have electricity or running water or sewage?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right on the edge. Yeah, right on the edge of a town and it was a big town.

[Assistant] What's big?

[User] Mahalapye, depending upon the season. If it was you know, if they, if people were out in their fields, that was one thing. But in the in the winter months, it would be close to forty thousand, which is really big. But it was at the time it was still considered a quote unquote traditional village just because there was nothing much modern there. I mean, the rail line was going through there in the main highway was going through there and it was actually designated as a place that should become more modern and that the government would sort of invest in the infrastructure to encourage more modern economic activities. But at the time we were there, it was, you know, that was just barely starting.

[Assistant] So does that mean that the town didn't have electricity or running water or sewage?

[User] Yeah, definitely. No central sewage or anything. There was the main street essentially, which just came right off the highway and the train went through there. So that immediate downtown, I think had maybe a handful of just streetlights and probably in the train station they may have had in the bank. Yeah there were two banks. They may have had, you know, some running water there and a couple of general stores and they had refrigeration and lights. But for the most part, it was just tiny. It was you could count the buildings that had that on your fingers and that was it. And then everybody else, it was much more traditional and no electricity, no running water.

[Assistant] So you had time for a vacation, I assume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mahalapye, depending upon the season. If it was you know, if they, if people were out in their fields, that was one thing. But in the in the winter months, it would be close to forty thousand, which is really big. But it was at the time it was still considered a quote unquote traditional village just because there was nothing much modern there. I mean, the rail line was going through there in the main highway was going through there and it was actually designated as a place that should become more modern and that the government would sort of invest in the infrastructure to encourage more modern economic activities. But at the time we were there, it was, you know, that was just barely starting.

[Assistant] So does that mean that the town didn't have electricity or running water or sewage?

[User] Yeah, definitely. No central sewage or anything. There was the main street essentially, which just came right off the highway and the train went through there. So that immediate downtown, I think had maybe a handful of just streetlights and probably in the train station they may have had in the bank. Yeah there were two banks. They may have had, you know, some running water there and a couple of general stores and they had refrigeration and lights. But for the most part, it was just tiny. It was you could count the buildings that had that on your fingers and that was it. And then everybody else, it was much more traditional and no electricity, no running water.

[Assistant] So you had time for a vacation, I assume?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about some of your experiences, or what you did during vacation time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, definitely. No central sewage or anything. There was the main street essentially, which just came right off the highway and the train went through there. So that immediate downtown, I think had maybe a handful of just streetlights and probably in the train station they may have had in the bank. Yeah there were two banks. They may have had, you know, some running water there and a couple of general stores and they had refrigeration and lights. But for the most part, it was just tiny. It was you could count the buildings that had that on your fingers and that was it. And then everybody else, it was much more traditional and no electricity, no running water.

[Assistant] So you had time for a vacation, I assume?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about some of your experiences, or what you did during vacation time?

[User] The first vacation, that could be a long story. I won't give you the long story. Four of us got together and decided we wanted to go to Tanzania and we wanted to take the train. And it was a bit of an adventure. So we went into Zimbabwe by train and then we had to take a bus to Zambia. And in Lusaka, I think we needed yet another bus to get to Kapiri Mposhi. And then there was we got on the rail and that was the new Tazara railroad built by the Chinese. And that was only a couple of years old. But they were there were some organizational problems and the trains were actually not running all the way through. They would take you to the border and then you'd have to get off and buy a new ticket and wait for the next train to come to pick you up. So they had to train for just sort of meeting each other in the middle.

[Assistant] So it was to take it, what, two days or so to just do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little about some of your experiences, or what you did during vacation time?

[User] The first vacation, that could be a long story. I won't give you the long story. Four of us got together and decided we wanted to go to Tanzania and we wanted to take the train. And it was a bit of an adventure. So we went into Zimbabwe by train and then we had to take a bus to Zambia. And in Lusaka, I think we needed yet another bus to get to Kapiri Mposhi. And then there was we got on the rail and that was the new Tazara railroad built by the Chinese. And that was only a couple of years old. But they were there were some organizational problems and the trains were actually not running all the way through. They would take you to the border and then you'd have to get off and buy a new ticket and wait for the next train to come to pick you up. So they had to train for just sort of meeting each other in the middle.

[Assistant] So it was to take it, what, two days or so to just do that?

[User] Well, it was the better part of a week to get to Dar es Salaam.

[Assistant] Just to get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first vacation, that could be a long story. I won't give you the long story. Four of us got together and decided we wanted to go to Tanzania and we wanted to take the train. And it was a bit of an adventure. So we went into Zimbabwe by train and then we had to take a bus to Zambia. And in Lusaka, I think we needed yet another bus to get to Kapiri Mposhi. And then there was we got on the rail and that was the new Tazara railroad built by the Chinese. And that was only a couple of years old. But they were there were some organizational problems and the trains were actually not running all the way through. They would take you to the border and then you'd have to get off and buy a new ticket and wait for the next train to come to pick you up. So they had to train for just sort of meeting each other in the middle.

[Assistant] So it was to take it, what, two days or so to just do that?

[User] Well, it was the better part of a week to get to Dar es Salaam.

[Assistant] Just to get there?

[User] Yeah, right. And then we got robbed on the way. Like I said, this is an adventure, but we threw ourselves at the mercy of the Tanzania Peace Corps and they were able to give us an advance.

[Assistant] How did you get robbed? I mean, what was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was the better part of a week to get to Dar es Salaam.

[Assistant] Just to get there?

[User] Yeah, right. And then we got robbed on the way. Like I said, this is an adventure, but we threw ourselves at the mercy of the Tanzania Peace Corps and they were able to give us an advance.

[Assistant] How did you get robbed? I mean, what was that?

[User] Changing, you know, at the at the train and bus stations, this was a place where, you know, thieves would hang out and they were well organized. So it was just aggressive pickpockets. But it was very you know, it was really just, nothing subtle. It's not like sneaking into your pocket. It was grab, grab and run. It will grab and hand off to the next guy and run. And so I, let's see. I think I might have lost, they ripped a watch off my wrist, while other others of them. One person lost a passport. And then, you know, some traveler's checks and money got missing and so on, so we know it was an adventure and we went to. We often would go to Zimbabwe for like long weekends because that wasn't too far. You could get there easily by train on an overnight train.

[Assistant] That was, what, 1981?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. And then we got robbed on the way. Like I said, this is an adventure, but we threw ourselves at the mercy of the Tanzania Peace Corps and they were able to give us an advance.

[Assistant] How did you get robbed? I mean, what was that?

[User] Changing, you know, at the at the train and bus stations, this was a place where, you know, thieves would hang out and they were well organized. So it was just aggressive pickpockets. But it was very you know, it was really just, nothing subtle. It's not like sneaking into your pocket. It was grab, grab and run. It will grab and hand off to the next guy and run. And so I, let's see. I think I might have lost, they ripped a watch off my wrist, while other others of them. One person lost a passport. And then, you know, some traveler's checks and money got missing and so on, so we know it was an adventure and we went to. We often would go to Zimbabwe for like long weekends because that wasn't too far. You could get there easily by train on an overnight train.

[Assistant] That was, what, 1981?

[User] Yeah, it had just become Zimbabwe and it just, you know, had its election and Robert Mugabe had just been elected.

[Assistant] So the transition hadn't totally occurred yet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Changing, you know, at the at the train and bus stations, this was a place where, you know, thieves would hang out and they were well organized. So it was just aggressive pickpockets. But it was very you know, it was really just, nothing subtle. It's not like sneaking into your pocket. It was grab, grab and run. It will grab and hand off to the next guy and run. And so I, let's see. I think I might have lost, they ripped a watch off my wrist, while other others of them. One person lost a passport. And then, you know, some traveler's checks and money got missing and so on, so we know it was an adventure and we went to. We often would go to Zimbabwe for like long weekends because that wasn't too far. You could get there easily by train on an overnight train.

[Assistant] That was, what, 1981?

[User] Yeah, it had just become Zimbabwe and it just, you know, had its election and Robert Mugabe had just been elected.

[Assistant] So the transition hadn't totally occurred yet?

[User] It was, well, he was in power. But yes, it was brand new. That was a very interesting experience too. But yeah. So we’d go there and we also made a trip to Swaziland, which meant we had to go through South Africa, which was when it was still under apartheid. And so that was very eye-opening experience.

[Assistant] And but did you do that by car or truck?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it had just become Zimbabwe and it just, you know, had its election and Robert Mugabe had just been elected.

[Assistant] So the transition hadn't totally occurred yet?

[User] It was, well, he was in power. But yes, it was brand new. That was a very interesting experience too. But yeah. So we’d go there and we also made a trip to Swaziland, which meant we had to go through South Africa, which was when it was still under apartheid. And so that was very eye-opening experience.

[Assistant] And but did you do that by car or truck?

[User] Again, bus and train. But we also did hitchhiking and so on the way back, we were hitchhiking. And yet more adventures, nothing too serious, but sort of getting lost, ending up in some little dorp.

[Assistant] And so it was just like, did you say four of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, well, he was in power. But yes, it was brand new. That was a very interesting experience too. But yeah. So we’d go there and we also made a trip to Swaziland, which meant we had to go through South Africa, which was when it was still under apartheid. And so that was very eye-opening experience.

[Assistant] And but did you do that by car or truck?

[User] Again, bus and train. But we also did hitchhiking and so on the way back, we were hitchhiking. And yet more adventures, nothing too serious, but sort of getting lost, ending up in some little dorp.

[Assistant] And so it was just like, did you say four of you?

[User] There were, yeah. We would do it in groups of three or four, maybe two.

[Assistant] But so any other experiences on vacation time that you thought were interesting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I know that because they were.

[Assistant] You knew some of these people personally then?

[User] I knew some of our language teachers and a couple of them died. And a couple of them died. And I don't know for sure, you know, specifically named students because I didn't really stay in touch with the students. But there were definitely, it was known that some of the teachers were sleeping with some of the students and the whole area, as I said, on the main railroad and road network with, you know, truckers going up and down and so on. So it was one of the hardest hit areas in the world actually. Botswana was one of the hardest hit countries and Mahalapye and that whole corridor, transport corridor, was one of the hardest hit in the world.

[Assistant] Did any Peace Corps volunteers come back and come in specifically to work in the AIDS area?

[User] That was not our group, but afterwards yes, my understanding is yes, definitely.

[Assistant] Well, that would be very traumatic. Also in term of your tour of service, are there some things that when you look back, you regret?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] This is in other assignments?

[User] Right. Yeah. And it was you know, these were serious risks. Actually, this is one other thing I wanted to share on the record. I was lucky, I never had any really serious problems. But as you probably know, most Peace Corps volunteers at the very beginning, they’re sent for a village live-in.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we all were. Ours was actually even a little longer because they were, you know, they were having trouble juggling with this whole situation, with the mourning over President Khama.

[Assistant] A village live-in means live with a family in the community to sensitize you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Yeah. And it was you know, these were serious risks. Actually, this is one other thing I wanted to share on the record. I was lucky, I never had any really serious problems. But as you probably know, most Peace Corps volunteers at the very beginning, they’re sent for a village live-in.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And we all were. Ours was actually even a little longer because they were, you know, they were having trouble juggling with this whole situation, with the mourning over President Khama.

[Assistant] A village live-in means live with a family in the community to sensitize you?

[User] For a week. Yeah. And you would get your language training in the context of being able to practice with, you know, a family. And so I was there and I was assigned to a family and we got there in the late afternoon and we, you know, we had food with us as a contribution to the household. And so this was a family compound with, you know, three or four huts.

[Assistant] These mud with the thatch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a week. Yeah. And you would get your language training in the context of being able to practice with, you know, a family. And so I was there and I was assigned to a family and we got there in the late afternoon and we, you know, we had food with us as a contribution to the household. And so this was a family compound with, you know, three or four huts.

[Assistant] These mud with the thatch?

[User] Mostly, yeah, I think one of them, the father had a smaller, well a cement block house, but nothing very big. But I got there and so I had, you know, a bag, a suitcase. And the next thing I know, they're bringing the suitcase into the father's hut.

[Assistant] Your suitcase?

[User] My suitcase. And they're bringing a bed, a cot into his bedroom. And I, I was, you know, saying, oh my god, no, no, this is not right. So I went off to find one of the official Peace Corps language teachers who was also in the same village as a number of us. So there was maybe a half a dozen of us or eight or so. And then so I went to Buntle, her name, and I said Buntle, they're trying to put me in the same bed, hut and bedroom with the father. And she said, oh that's not good. And so she went in and there was, you know, a long talk, long talk, long talk. And eventually one of the boys brought my bag out and into another little hut and moved the cot over there. But this guy, you know, this is the father of the household. And he had really wanted me to his room.

[Assistant] That was his expectation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My suitcase. And they're bringing a bed, a cot into his bedroom. And I, I was, you know, saying, oh my god, no, no, this is not right. So I went off to find one of the official Peace Corps language teachers who was also in the same village as a number of us. So there was maybe a half a dozen of us or eight or so. And then so I went to Buntle, her name, and I said Buntle, they're trying to put me in the same bed, hut and bedroom with the father. And she said, oh that's not good. And so she went in and there was, you know, a long talk, long talk, long talk. And eventually one of the boys brought my bag out and into another little hut and moved the cot over there. But this guy, you know, this is the father of the household. And he had really wanted me to his room.

[Assistant] That was his expectation.

[User] That was his expectation. And now he was unhappy. And so I had wanted to be moved. You know, I don't want to be in this situation.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] And they, the response, you know, the Peace Corps response was, oh no, that would be offensive.

[Assistant] Tough it out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was his expectation. And now he was unhappy. And so I had wanted to be moved. You know, I don't want to be in this situation.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] And they, the response, you know, the Peace Corps response was, oh no, that would be offensive.

[Assistant] Tough it out.

[User] And so I had to stay.

[Assistant] Oh my god.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I survived. Yes.

[Assistant] That's an interesting story. Well, on the flip side of that, what were some of the most meaningful relationships that you felt you had with the students or the community that you were with?

[User] I liked, we had some very nice neighbors that I liked, and some of the teachers that I worked with were really wonderful, very welcoming and supportive. The teachers, you know, very dedicated and professional. I wish there had been more of them. The teachers in particular, you know, like I said, that was that was there was sort of constant friction in that school. The neighbors were very nice.

[Assistant] But let me ask, how many teachers were the ballpark total in the school?

[User] Oh, I would say 16, 18.

[Assistant] So that's quite a few.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I liked, we had some very nice neighbors that I liked, and some of the teachers that I worked with were really wonderful, very welcoming and supportive. The teachers, you know, very dedicated and professional. I wish there had been more of them. The teachers in particular, you know, like I said, that was that was there was sort of constant friction in that school. The neighbors were very nice.

[Assistant] But let me ask, how many teachers were the ballpark total in the school?

[User] Oh, I would say 16, 18.

[Assistant] So that's quite a few.

[User] Yeah. And it was growing and we helped we help with plans to expand the school. And so one of the things I was able to do, aside from just teaching, just teaching, I shouldn't say that, was putting together a grant proposal for the school to expand. So that was one time when I sort of felt like I was putting my economic skills to work and it did happen. And we eventually went back there in 2013. And so I saw that, yes, they actually had expanded the school. And that was, hey, look at that! They really did it.

[Assistant] So could you say what you learned most from the people who you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, in school, okay. I forgot that total in the school, let me think.

[Assistant] And this went from what, first grade to?

[User] No, this is like junior, junior secondary school, so it would be it would be equivalent to our seventh, eighth, ninth grade. And there were probably, I'm guessing, in the ballpark of 250 students.

[Assistant] In that cohort?

[User] Yeah. In those grades.

[Assistant] Great. Wow. And then they went on to a high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, this is like junior, junior secondary school, so it would be it would be equivalent to our seventh, eighth, ninth grade. And there were probably, I'm guessing, in the ballpark of 250 students.

[Assistant] In that cohort?

[User] Yeah. In those grades.

[Assistant] Great. Wow. And then they went on to a high school?

[User] They would either go on to transfer into a government secondary school to finish up. So they would have done what do you call it, O levels?

[Assistant] Were they on the British system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In those grades.

[Assistant] Great. Wow. And then they went on to a high school?

[User] They would either go on to transfer into a government secondary school to finish up. So they would have done what do you call it, O levels?

[Assistant] Were they on the British system?

[User] Roughly.

[Assistant] They didn't do the Cambridge though, did they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would either go on to transfer into a government secondary school to finish up. So they would have done what do you call it, O levels?

[Assistant] Were they on the British system?

[User] Roughly.

[Assistant] They didn't do the Cambridge though, did they?

[User] No. So it would be roughly on the level of I think, all levels. And then if they wanted their A-levels, they would have to go into a government or private secondary school or they would go into trade school. So my husband was teaching in a what they call the brigades, which is basically a trade school with a live-in apprenticeship program sort of built in. So they would have the class work in the morning and had hands-on contract work. It was on-the-job training contract, which they did. So they were bringing in money and they were supposed to be self-financing. And in my husband's case it was, but it was it was hard to keep that going too.

[Assistant] Can you speak a little bit about what had been the long-term impacts? I mean, you're now retired and you're able to think back on not only to say how many years ago it's been, but what do you think are some of the longer term impacts that have resulted from your involvement, the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Roughly.

[Assistant] They didn't do the Cambridge though, did they?

[User] No. So it would be roughly on the level of I think, all levels. And then if they wanted their A-levels, they would have to go into a government or private secondary school or they would go into trade school. So my husband was teaching in a what they call the brigades, which is basically a trade school with a live-in apprenticeship program sort of built in. So they would have the class work in the morning and had hands-on contract work. It was on-the-job training contract, which they did. So they were bringing in money and they were supposed to be self-financing. And in my husband's case it was, but it was it was hard to keep that going too.

[Assistant] Can you speak a little bit about what had been the long-term impacts? I mean, you're now retired and you're able to think back on not only to say how many years ago it's been, but what do you think are some of the longer term impacts that have resulted from your involvement, the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, I.

[Assistant] Both on yourself and on those and let's say your family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. So it would be roughly on the level of I think, all levels. And then if they wanted their A-levels, they would have to go into a government or private secondary school or they would go into trade school. So my husband was teaching in a what they call the brigades, which is basically a trade school with a live-in apprenticeship program sort of built in. So they would have the class work in the morning and had hands-on contract work. It was on-the-job training contract, which they did. So they were bringing in money and they were supposed to be self-financing. And in my husband's case it was, but it was it was hard to keep that going too.

[Assistant] Can you speak a little bit about what had been the long-term impacts? I mean, you're now retired and you're able to think back on not only to say how many years ago it's been, but what do you think are some of the longer term impacts that have resulted from your involvement, the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, I.

[Assistant] Both on yourself and on those and let's say your family.

[User] My family. Well, my husband, you know, we ended up getting together when we were both in the same village in my Mahalapye. And so we have that shared experience.

[Assistant] Is he Botswanan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not the.

[Assistant] Or going back, any of that?

[User] There was one, um, one of my former language teachers that I was in touch with very briefly, because he was a journalist in the capital city. And I was back there once or twice professionally and didn't actually get together with him again. He is another one who was suffering from AIDS. So he was, you know.

[Assistant] Under therapy.

[User] Yeah, he was struggling, you know, health wise. And others of them, as I said, died of AIDS earlier, you know, because that hit that hit Botswana so hard and so fast. So a lot of people remember, died before there was really an effective treatment.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was one, um, one of my former language teachers that I was in touch with very briefly, because he was a journalist in the capital city. And I was back there once or twice professionally and didn't actually get together with him again. He is another one who was suffering from AIDS. So he was, you know.

[Assistant] Under therapy.

[User] Yeah, he was struggling, you know, health wise. And others of them, as I said, died of AIDS earlier, you know, because that hit that hit Botswana so hard and so fast. So a lot of people remember, died before there was really an effective treatment.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Wow.

[User] But, yeah, some of the some of the other Peace Corps volunteers, yeah, I've been in touch with some of them and that's fun too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Old war stories. Have you gone back to Botswana?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he was struggling, you know, health wise. And others of them, as I said, died of AIDS earlier, you know, because that hit that hit Botswana so hard and so fast. So a lot of people remember, died before there was really an effective treatment.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Wow.

[User] But, yeah, some of the some of the other Peace Corps volunteers, yeah, I've been in touch with some of them and that's fun too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Old war stories. Have you gone back to Botswana?

[User] Yeah. So professionally a couple of times in the ‘90s. Yeah, late ‘80s, early ‘90s.

[Assistant] Is this with the World Bank?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, yeah, some of the some of the other Peace Corps volunteers, yeah, I've been in touch with some of them and that's fun too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Old war stories. Have you gone back to Botswana?

[User] Yeah. So professionally a couple of times in the ‘90s. Yeah, late ‘80s, early ‘90s.

[Assistant] Is this with the World Bank?

[User] First with a consulting firm. Also with the World Bank. And then my husband and I both went back there for a holiday vacation in 2013 and did another little safari. Oh, we did another safari. Oh my god, I forgot to tell you about the other safari that we did in the Okavango Delta, which was really amazing. But oh well.

[Assistant] Well, when you went back, did you go up to your old go back to your old town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But it now had more modern amenities in the area.

[Assistant] Electricity.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Water, hopefully.

[User] Yes, yes. Quite a bit more. But you could still see this sort of hollowing out of middle aged people because so many had died of AIDS. You know, this was you know, it was noticeable, the absence of, you know, people my age.

[Assistant] Yeah, no that’s. And men and women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Water, hopefully.

[User] Yes, yes. Quite a bit more. But you could still see this sort of hollowing out of middle aged people because so many had died of AIDS. You know, this was you know, it was noticeable, the absence of, you know, people my age.

[Assistant] Yeah, no that’s. And men and women?

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] No, no question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. Quite a bit more. But you could still see this sort of hollowing out of middle aged people because so many had died of AIDS. You know, this was you know, it was noticeable, the absence of, you know, people my age.

[Assistant] Yeah, no that’s. And men and women?

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] No, no question.

[User] Definitely.

[Assistant] And then babies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] No, no question.

[User] Definitely.

[Assistant] And then babies.

[User] Orphans. There were a lot of orphans.

[Assistant] Well, right. Right. Do you continue to be involved in the Peace Corps in any way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely.

[Assistant] And then babies.

[User] Orphans. There were a lot of orphans.

[Assistant] Well, right. Right. Do you continue to be involved in the Peace Corps in any way?

[User] Not a lot. But I did go down to the, there was a big event launching this new museum, if you will, an event at the Kennedy Center a couple of months ago.

[Assistant] Oh, when they had that film?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Orphans. There were a lot of orphans.

[Assistant] Well, right. Right. Do you continue to be involved in the Peace Corps in any way?

[User] Not a lot. But I did go down to the, there was a big event launching this new museum, if you will, an event at the Kennedy Center a couple of months ago.

[Assistant] Oh, when they had that film?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh yeah. Some people find it great to continue involvement with the Peace Corps, others don't. Why do you think? You did that, but not a strong thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh yeah. Some people find it great to continue involvement with the Peace Corps, others don't. Why do you think? You did that, but not a strong thing.

[User] Some people, some of my friends actually came back here and ended up working as professionals in the Peace Corps administration for a period of time. And so they have, they've formed more of a network, if you will, a tighter network, I would say. The rest of us, you know, we're just scattered. We're so far apart. But yeah, it is actually with Facebook has been, you know, made it easier to find and connect again with some of them. And that's been nice. And the guy who shared the compound with me, you know, I sort of lost touch with him. He married another Peace Corps volunteer who had been part of our group, and they settled in New Jersey. And when we were taking our daughter around to visit schools, we went to Pratt because she was interested in art school. And, you know, that was their big day of having lots of people come and look at it as a prospective college location, and we bumped into them.

[Assistant] Serendipitously.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh, wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some people, some of my friends actually came back here and ended up working as professionals in the Peace Corps administration for a period of time. And so they have, they've formed more of a network, if you will, a tighter network, I would say. The rest of us, you know, we're just scattered. We're so far apart. But yeah, it is actually with Facebook has been, you know, made it easier to find and connect again with some of them. And that's been nice. And the guy who shared the compound with me, you know, I sort of lost touch with him. He married another Peace Corps volunteer who had been part of our group, and they settled in New Jersey. And when we were taking our daughter around to visit schools, we went to Pratt because she was interested in art school. And, you know, that was their big day of having lots of people come and look at it as a prospective college location, and we bumped into them.

[Assistant] Serendipitously.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, my gosh, wow.

[User] We immediately as soon as we were all finished, we said, oh we have to have lunch together. And we did. That was fun.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for taking time to do this interview, and I think people will find it very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. I'd never thought of space, although I'd taken a course in space. I was really a dyed-in-the-wool airplane man and had never thought of anything [else] in particular. In fact, I was so busy up until the roof fell in, that what was going on in the rest of the world wasn't always clear. We were working seven days a week, three shifts, and I only had enough people to cover about a shift and a half about six days. So it was a lot of overtime and on call.

[Assistant] Were you aware of Sputnik and what was going on with the Russian space agency at that time?

[User] Not aware of it in any sense beyond noticing it in the newspapers.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you learned that?

[User] I don't think I had much reaction whatsoever. As I say, we were so buried in trying to get this Arrow going, that I didn't have much reaction to it at all. And I don't think there was that much reaction in Canada either, in general. It was, "Oh, yes. One of those interesting things."

[Assistant] So now Mr. Mathews and Mr. Gilruth were inviting you to come to America and be a part of this whole new program. Did they give you any idea what you'd be doing when you came to work for them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not aware of it in any sense beyond noticing it in the newspapers.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you learned that?

[User] I don't think I had much reaction whatsoever. As I say, we were so buried in trying to get this Arrow going, that I didn't have much reaction to it at all. And I don't think there was that much reaction in Canada either, in general. It was, "Oh, yes. One of those interesting things."

[Assistant] So now Mr. Mathews and Mr. Gilruth were inviting you to come to America and be a part of this whole new program. Did they give you any idea what you'd be doing when you came to work for them?

[User] Not really. [Laughter] All I knew was that they were starting off this ambitious program which I'd read a little bit about, Project Mercury, and that I'd probably be working for Chuck Mathews, who was going to head up the—or was heading up the Operations Division. Other than that, it was, "Well, this is the only game in town, so I guess I'd better join it." [Laughter]\n\n And so there were about twenty-five of us went down, roughly, and this was probably when the basic Manned Space Task Group had only about twenty-five engineers, who almost all of them had come from Langley. I think one of them or two of them had come from other NASA centers, plus the seven original astronauts had just been named, so it was the original core of what's now the big Manned Spacecraft Center. It was kind of exciting. [Laughter]

[Assistant] The goals and expectations that the Space Task Group had, as you said, was for this great new adventure and a great new program. How did you feel about all those? Did you ever have a doubt that as part of this group you'd be able to fulfill all those goals and reach those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think I had much reaction whatsoever. As I say, we were so buried in trying to get this Arrow going, that I didn't have much reaction to it at all. And I don't think there was that much reaction in Canada either, in general. It was, "Oh, yes. One of those interesting things."

[Assistant] So now Mr. Mathews and Mr. Gilruth were inviting you to come to America and be a part of this whole new program. Did they give you any idea what you'd be doing when you came to work for them?

[User] Not really. [Laughter] All I knew was that they were starting off this ambitious program which I'd read a little bit about, Project Mercury, and that I'd probably be working for Chuck Mathews, who was going to head up the—or was heading up the Operations Division. Other than that, it was, "Well, this is the only game in town, so I guess I'd better join it." [Laughter]\n\n And so there were about twenty-five of us went down, roughly, and this was probably when the basic Manned Space Task Group had only about twenty-five engineers, who almost all of them had come from Langley. I think one of them or two of them had come from other NASA centers, plus the seven original astronauts had just been named, so it was the original core of what's now the big Manned Spacecraft Center. It was kind of exciting. [Laughter]

[Assistant] The goals and expectations that the Space Task Group had, as you said, was for this great new adventure and a great new program. How did you feel about all those? Did you ever have a doubt that as part of this group you'd be able to fulfill all those goals and reach those?

[User] I took it as a big challenge, having worked in the aircraft industry with prototypes, the Jetliner and the CF-100 and the CF-105. I said, "Here's another challenge." [Laughter] A big one, but I like doing new things like that. It certainly was a challenge.

[Assistant] And a very new thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. [Laughter] All I knew was that they were starting off this ambitious program which I'd read a little bit about, Project Mercury, and that I'd probably be working for Chuck Mathews, who was going to head up the—or was heading up the Operations Division. Other than that, it was, "Well, this is the only game in town, so I guess I'd better join it." [Laughter]\n\n And so there were about twenty-five of us went down, roughly, and this was probably when the basic Manned Space Task Group had only about twenty-five engineers, who almost all of them had come from Langley. I think one of them or two of them had come from other NASA centers, plus the seven original astronauts had just been named, so it was the original core of what's now the big Manned Spacecraft Center. It was kind of exciting. [Laughter]

[Assistant] The goals and expectations that the Space Task Group had, as you said, was for this great new adventure and a great new program. How did you feel about all those? Did you ever have a doubt that as part of this group you'd be able to fulfill all those goals and reach those?

[User] I took it as a big challenge, having worked in the aircraft industry with prototypes, the Jetliner and the CF-100 and the CF-105. I said, "Here's another challenge." [Laughter] A big one, but I like doing new things like that. It certainly was a challenge.

[Assistant] And a very new thing.

[User] And new, yes. And learning a lot. It was learning as you go.

[Assistant] Tell us about the transition from leaving Canada and moving down to the Langley area. Was that a smooth operation for you and your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the down-range control team consisted of a capsule communicator who talked to the astronaut. He was responsible for determining the status of the overall mission at that point. The second one in the team was an engineer who was responsible for the status of the capsule. He [monitored] all the telemetry information regarding the environmental system and fuel systems and so forth. The third one was a doctor responsible for the status of the astronaut medical status. So here it was. They were responsible for how goes the mission, how goes the capsule, how goes the astronaut. That was the team.\n\n The non-medical flight controllers were pretty junior, and some of them had a little more experience. The Philco-Ford ones had a little more experience, but a lot of them were quite junior engineers. [But] medical people who had been recruited by Stan [Stanley C.] White, Dr. Stan White, Colonel Stan White, were senior. They were nothing less than a major. When I gave a briefing to the medical people about the team, the remote teams, there was one Navy captain who said, "You mean I'm junior? I'm subordinate to those juniors," to the capsule communicator, who is the senior one. I said, "Well, it's the same as an airplane pilot. Whoever is the pilot is in charge of the airplane, independent of his rank." That was the only time anybody tried to pull rank.

[Assistant] Well, that's good news.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How many teams did you have?

[User] Well, there were—I guess it was sixteen stations altogether, including the…[Mission Control Center and Bermuda], so that's fourteen. I think that's the right number. I'd have to go back and check.\n\n The Canary Islands; Kano, Nigeria; Zanzibar; Indian Ocean ship; Muchea in Australia; Woomera in Australia; Canton Island; Hawaii, on Kauai; Point Arguello in California; Guaymas, Mexico; and Corpus Christi, Texas. I think that's all.

[Assistant] Was there one of those that was harder to staff than the rest of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How many teams did you have?

[User] Well, there were—I guess it was sixteen stations altogether, including the…[Mission Control Center and Bermuda], so that's fourteen. I think that's the right number. I'd have to go back and check.\n\n The Canary Islands; Kano, Nigeria; Zanzibar; Indian Ocean ship; Muchea in Australia; Woomera in Australia; Canton Island; Hawaii, on Kauai; Point Arguello in California; Guaymas, Mexico; and Corpus Christi, Texas. I think that's all.

[Assistant] Was there one of those that was harder to staff than the rest of them?

[User] What we did was, rather than stick somebody with a tour of duty on the Indian Ocean ship, which was an old World War II freighter converted, and it would take two weeks to get on station, two weeks on station, two weeks to get off station, and rather than stick the same controllers, what we did was we rotated them, you know. It was kind of tough to say, "You're going to the Indian Ocean ship, and you're going to Hawaii." [Laughter]

[Assistant] You'd have a fall-out on rotation, did you, every time it came time to go to the Indian Ocean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess he survived the mission as well and did okay once he got there.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] I never did find out how he got his suitcase open.

[Assistant] I guess he didn't want to tell you everything. [Laughter] Well, I'm sure it was never a dull moment for you with everything going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] That's good.

[User] I never did find out how he got his suitcase open.

[Assistant] I guess he didn't want to tell you everything. [Laughter] Well, I'm sure it was never a dull moment for you with everything going on.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the actual work that you did while the missions were up and away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never did find out how he got his suitcase open.

[Assistant] I guess he didn't want to tell you everything. [Laughter] Well, I'm sure it was never a dull moment for you with everything going on.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the actual work that you did while the missions were up and away.

[User] Most of the time I was probably getting ready for the next one, trying to figure out—well, working on mission rules and so forth. Then I got a little involved with Apollo, but not much. Chris came to me one day and asked me to prepare a paper for the first briefing of industry on the Apollo Program, and what he wanted me to do was describe what the Mercury Mission Control organization and philosophies were, and how we were planning to do it, because in his mind things wouldn't change much in the future. A lot of details would change, but the philosophy would be the same. He wanted to make sure that industry understood the philosophy behind it.\n\n So he gave me some ideas for the paper, and I wrote the paper in detail, then gave the presentation, because there was a mission going on at the time. It was unclassified, but the publication was in two volumes, one unclassified and one classified. Unfortunately, my unclassified paper got included in the classified volume, and somebody swiped that volume from me years later, after it had been unclassified. So I don't have a copy of it. I've reconstructed it from drafts I had. I always wished I had a copy of the original.

[Assistant] I guess so, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the actual work that you did while the missions were up and away.

[User] Most of the time I was probably getting ready for the next one, trying to figure out—well, working on mission rules and so forth. Then I got a little involved with Apollo, but not much. Chris came to me one day and asked me to prepare a paper for the first briefing of industry on the Apollo Program, and what he wanted me to do was describe what the Mercury Mission Control organization and philosophies were, and how we were planning to do it, because in his mind things wouldn't change much in the future. A lot of details would change, but the philosophy would be the same. He wanted to make sure that industry understood the philosophy behind it.\n\n So he gave me some ideas for the paper, and I wrote the paper in detail, then gave the presentation, because there was a mission going on at the time. It was unclassified, but the publication was in two volumes, one unclassified and one classified. Unfortunately, my unclassified paper got included in the classified volume, and somebody swiped that volume from me years later, after it had been unclassified. So I don't have a copy of it. I've reconstructed it from drafts I had. I always wished I had a copy of the original.

[Assistant] I guess so, yes.

[User] That briefing of industry was in Washington.

[Assistant] Were you able to share in that paper what you felt were the differences between, say, how the manned and the unmanned missions were done and how that would affect the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You didn't have to train all of that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We're going to break for just a few minutes so that we can change the tape, and we'll go from there.

[User] So how are we doing? [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n [Begin Tape 2, Side 1]

[Assistant] As you were planning and working toward all of the goals that you had, as you mentioned, you didn't treat the unmanned launches any different than you would if they were manned. Then the time came when it became a manned flight. Would you share with us the preparations for Alan Shepard's flight and what you were doing at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We hoped so. One of the things we did was we rigged up a dummy world of remote stations in one of the big buildings nearby, NASA buildings that held a wind tunnel, one of their wind tunnels. With big wind tunnels, there's lots of space underneath the tunnel itself, usually, so we used that space to set up some remote stations with consoles, dummy consoles, and communications, and had them all hooked together and ran simulations with the Worldwide Network that way.\n\n Then the other aspect, of course, as I mentioned earlier, was using the missions to train—the unmanned mission and the chimp missions—to train everybody, including the station operators…as to what was coming and as to how they would react.

[Assistant] That mission was very significant to the space program, and from what we've read about you, also to you, because we understand right after the mission you opted to leave NASA.

[User] Yes. I left for personal reasons, nothing to do with NASA. I left almost immediately after John Glenn's flight and came up to Massachusetts to work for my old boss at AVRO, who had come to work for RCA.

[Assistant] Had you made that decision prior to that mission?

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What led you to make the decision to leave NASA at the beginning of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I left for personal reasons, nothing to do with NASA. I left almost immediately after John Glenn's flight and came up to Massachusetts to work for my old boss at AVRO, who had come to work for RCA.

[Assistant] Had you made that decision prior to that mission?

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What led you to make the decision to leave NASA at the beginning of this?

[User] Really, two parts to it. One had to do with both our parents were in Toronto and not in very good health. We didn't really want to move much further away than we were at Langley. That was one.\n\n The other aspect had to do with schools. We'd already made change in the schools to come down to—and that was a big change for the kids. If we had gone to Houston, the Manned Spacecraft Center wasn't ready, hadn't even started, and so they started their operation there from various rented, leased locations spread around town, which would have meant living in Houston and then later on moving up to the center area. That would mean two school moves, and I thought, "Enough. One more is bad enough, but two is out of the question." So I was saying I didn't want to see my sixteen-year-old, oldest boy, say goodbye to his girlfriend again. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What a nice dad. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What led you to make the decision to leave NASA at the beginning of this?

[User] Really, two parts to it. One had to do with both our parents were in Toronto and not in very good health. We didn't really want to move much further away than we were at Langley. That was one.\n\n The other aspect had to do with schools. We'd already made change in the schools to come down to—and that was a big change for the kids. If we had gone to Houston, the Manned Spacecraft Center wasn't ready, hadn't even started, and so they started their operation there from various rented, leased locations spread around town, which would have meant living in Houston and then later on moving up to the center area. That would mean two school moves, and I thought, "Enough. One more is bad enough, but two is out of the question." So I was saying I didn't want to see my sixteen-year-old, oldest boy, say goodbye to his girlfriend again. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What a nice dad. [Laughter]

[User] And a strange thing, small world. Three years ago I did some work for ARINC, Aeronautical Radio, Incorporated, down in Annapolis, Maryland. We were doing a big proposal for a Korean airport. I got to talking to the office manager, who turned out to be from Newport News. So I said, "Oh, I used to live in Newport News, out in Stoneybrook." And he said, "Oh, when I lived there, I knew a girl that lived there. Connie Ogle." Was my oldest boy's girlfriend. Now, is that a small world or is that a small world?

[Assistant] Did you have some of your former AVRO colleagues as well as your new co-workers at NASA encourage you to come to Houston? Were they hoping you would come with them when they moved, to keep the team together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And a strange thing, small world. Three years ago I did some work for ARINC, Aeronautical Radio, Incorporated, down in Annapolis, Maryland. We were doing a big proposal for a Korean airport. I got to talking to the office manager, who turned out to be from Newport News. So I said, "Oh, I used to live in Newport News, out in Stoneybrook." And he said, "Oh, when I lived there, I knew a girl that lived there. Connie Ogle." Was my oldest boy's girlfriend. Now, is that a small world or is that a small world?

[Assistant] Did you have some of your former AVRO colleagues as well as your new co-workers at NASA encourage you to come to Houston? Were they hoping you would come with them when they moved, to keep the team together?

[User] Jim Chamberlin offered me a—I was a GS-15, I guess, at the time. He offered me a 16 to come work for him in his project office. He was working on Gemini at the time. It's not known as Gemini, really; it's "Jim and I." Because he was the instigator. He was the guy that defined the configuration of Gemini. So we used to joke and say it's not Gemini; it's "Jim and I."\n\n So he offered me a 16 to stay. I also got an offer, an unofficial offer, or preliminary offer, from headquarters to go up there. At the time I was a little leery of Washington. To me, Washington was an unknown, whereas I knew my old boss up here in Massachusetts, and had worked with him and for him for a number of years. That was more comfortable.

[Assistant] Sure. Now, before you left, did you feel the contributions you made would continue on and make quite a difference in the missions that were going to follow, to have a chance to test out those missions rules and those Flight Controller Handbooks?

[User] I'll let somebody else answer that question, what my contribution was.

[Assistant] Let's answer the part, if you would, about the mission rules and the flight controller books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim Chamberlin offered me a—I was a GS-15, I guess, at the time. He offered me a 16 to come work for him in his project office. He was working on Gemini at the time. It's not known as Gemini, really; it's "Jim and I." Because he was the instigator. He was the guy that defined the configuration of Gemini. So we used to joke and say it's not Gemini; it's "Jim and I."\n\n So he offered me a 16 to stay. I also got an offer, an unofficial offer, or preliminary offer, from headquarters to go up there. At the time I was a little leery of Washington. To me, Washington was an unknown, whereas I knew my old boss up here in Massachusetts, and had worked with him and for him for a number of years. That was more comfortable.

[Assistant] Sure. Now, before you left, did you feel the contributions you made would continue on and make quite a difference in the missions that were going to follow, to have a chance to test out those missions rules and those Flight Controller Handbooks?

[User] I'll let somebody else answer that question, what my contribution was.

[Assistant] Let's answer the part, if you would, about the mission rules and the flight controller books.

[User] There will always be mission rules.

[Assistant] And serve their purpose well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll let somebody else answer that question, what my contribution was.

[Assistant] Let's answer the part, if you would, about the mission rules and the flight controller books.

[User] There will always be mission rules.

[Assistant] And serve their purpose well?

[User] There would always be mission rules, and they would always evolve. Each mission would be a little bit different. For the remote controllers, there was always this panic of trying to get copies of the latest mission rules and the latest Flight Controller's Handbook ready, up to date at the point they were going to leave on an airplane. So that was finally solved. We finally got our own duplicating system.

[Assistant] I bet that came in handy.