[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. I think you have to be—

[Assistant] I think it's twenty-five.

[User] I think so. I think somebody else was talking about that.

[Assistant] Did you land close by?

[User] Oh, yes. We landed at Fox Field [General William J. Fox Airfield]. You'll see a sign for it when you go back to Lancaster [California].

[Assistant] You kind of had a bird's-eye view of where you were going to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I think somebody else was talking about that.

[Assistant] Did you land close by?

[User] Oh, yes. We landed at Fox Field [General William J. Fox Airfield]. You'll see a sign for it when you go back to Lancaster [California].

[Assistant] You kind of had a bird's-eye view of where you were going to be.

[User] Yes, we stayed in Las Vegas [Nevada]. We made it to Las Vegas the first day. By the time I got there I was really hungry, and the guy was really worried because I was eating a lot. I'd lost, kind of barfed everything out on the plane. And then we flew into Lancaster. It was dark when we flew in, naturally. It was quite a trip. I think actually it was worse for the other people. I mean, I was sick, but they had to listen and watch me, so they had a much worse time of it than I did.

[Assistant] Everybody made it, and your roommate stayed with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. We landed at Fox Field [General William J. Fox Airfield]. You'll see a sign for it when you go back to Lancaster [California].

[Assistant] You kind of had a bird's-eye view of where you were going to be.

[User] Yes, we stayed in Las Vegas [Nevada]. We made it to Las Vegas the first day. By the time I got there I was really hungry, and the guy was really worried because I was eating a lot. I'd lost, kind of barfed everything out on the plane. And then we flew into Lancaster. It was dark when we flew in, naturally. It was quite a trip. I think actually it was worse for the other people. I mean, I was sick, but they had to listen and watch me, so they had a much worse time of it than I did.

[Assistant] Everybody made it, and your roommate stayed with you.

[User] Yes. We roomed together that year.

[Assistant] Were you in town in Lancaster, or were you out here on—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we stayed in Las Vegas [Nevada]. We made it to Las Vegas the first day. By the time I got there I was really hungry, and the guy was really worried because I was eating a lot. I'd lost, kind of barfed everything out on the plane. And then we flew into Lancaster. It was dark when we flew in, naturally. It was quite a trip. I think actually it was worse for the other people. I mean, I was sick, but they had to listen and watch me, so they had a much worse time of it than I did.

[Assistant] Everybody made it, and your roommate stayed with you.

[User] Yes. We roomed together that year.

[Assistant] Were you in town in Lancaster, or were you out here on—

[User] No, we were in town. Earlier, they did have places for people to stay on the base, but by the time, by 1963, they didn't really have any places on the base that people could stay long term, so Emma and I stayed in a trailer court. We had our own trailer. We lucked out. We were right across from the restroom. They had a restroom area there. Because the woman told us when we rented the trailer, "Don't flush the stool in your trailer. It's slow-flushing." Oh, okay. So we never did that.

[Assistant] What a summer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We roomed together that year.

[Assistant] Were you in town in Lancaster, or were you out here on—

[User] No, we were in town. Earlier, they did have places for people to stay on the base, but by the time, by 1963, they didn't really have any places on the base that people could stay long term, so Emma and I stayed in a trailer court. We had our own trailer. We lucked out. We were right across from the restroom. They had a restroom area there. Because the woman told us when we rented the trailer, "Don't flush the stool in your trailer. It's slow-flushing." Oh, okay. So we never did that.

[Assistant] What a summer.

[User] But we were close to where they had the restroom in the trailer court, so we could just run over there, so that worked out really good.

[Assistant] And how did you get back and forth to the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were in town. Earlier, they did have places for people to stay on the base, but by the time, by 1963, they didn't really have any places on the base that people could stay long term, so Emma and I stayed in a trailer court. We had our own trailer. We lucked out. We were right across from the restroom. They had a restroom area there. Because the woman told us when we rented the trailer, "Don't flush the stool in your trailer. It's slow-flushing." Oh, okay. So we never did that.

[Assistant] What a summer.

[User] But we were close to where they had the restroom in the trailer court, so we could just run over there, so that worked out really good.

[Assistant] And how did you get back and forth to the Center?

[User] Well, some of the other guys had a car. Actually, probably a couple of them had cars, so we carpooled with them. There was also a bus, but the bus didn't go by our street, so we were in the carpool.

[Assistant] Give us your first impressions of the Center as you came here those first days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we were close to where they had the restroom in the trailer court, so we could just run over there, so that worked out really good.

[Assistant] And how did you get back and forth to the Center?

[User] Well, some of the other guys had a car. Actually, probably a couple of them had cars, so we carpooled with them. There was also a bus, but the bus didn't go by our street, so we were in the carpool.

[Assistant] Give us your first impressions of the Center as you came here those first days.

[User] I don't really remember much about that. I think everything was just so new. The trip and everything had just been so new that—obviously, it was considerably different than Iowa, as far as the green went, as far as the humidity went. It was quite a bit different.\n\n The first group I worked with—at that time, the groups were more in just rooms. We didn't have the individual cubicles. So I went in this first group and all the desks are really close together because that's how they got so many people in there. So your desk would face somebody else's. It was just a lot of different people to meet. It was a fun time.\n\n They were adding on to the building at that time. The '63 addition everybody refers to, and of course, they had this sign up, "Keep Out" so we all checked it out to see what was going on in the building. But it was a good group of people I worked with then.

[Assistant] Were a lot of them co-ops or were a lot of them other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's what I remember most about them working on. They also did a lot of the airspeed work. Terry Larson was also in that group. They did a lot of the airspeed work and he did a lot of plotting. Most people don't do the plotting anymore. We'd have dreams about these little points after a while, we did so much plotting of them. It was very tedious work, very time-consuming, very meticulous.\n\n Basically, you'd take a sheet of paper and it had many little columns on it, many rows, and we'd fill it all up with numbers and we'd plot all those numbers on a piece of paper. So you got really familiar with your data.

[Assistant] Was it many days of your time during those weeks?

[User] Yes. That and building the model, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have any expectations of what you would be doing during your co-op term, or were these something totally different than what you expected? Well, I suppose the model, because you'd never done that.

[User] I don't think I knew what I was going to be doing. I was kind of naive in that respect. I didn't really have any expectations. I just was coming out here to work, and I didn't know what was going to be involved with it. We had only had the first of—you hadn't even gotten into your aerospace engineering courses the first year, it's just your general curriculum, where they weed out most of the people. And then you get into the second year where you start getting into the courses, so I didn't really have a feel for what was going to be involved.

[Assistant] It sounded like you were ready for any surprises that came your way then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That and building the model, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have any expectations of what you would be doing during your co-op term, or were these something totally different than what you expected? Well, I suppose the model, because you'd never done that.

[User] I don't think I knew what I was going to be doing. I was kind of naive in that respect. I didn't really have any expectations. I just was coming out here to work, and I didn't know what was going to be involved with it. We had only had the first of—you hadn't even gotten into your aerospace engineering courses the first year, it's just your general curriculum, where they weed out most of the people. And then you get into the second year where you start getting into the courses, so I didn't really have a feel for what was going to be involved.

[Assistant] It sounded like you were ready for any surprises that came your way then.

[User] Yes. Well, Jim Cooper worked here, but we were the only two co-ops that came back after college to work at Dryden, of the original eight that started. The others all went elsewhere.

[Assistant] Was that the first time that Dryden had had a co-op program as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think I knew what I was going to be doing. I was kind of naive in that respect. I didn't really have any expectations. I just was coming out here to work, and I didn't know what was going to be involved with it. We had only had the first of—you hadn't even gotten into your aerospace engineering courses the first year, it's just your general curriculum, where they weed out most of the people. And then you get into the second year where you start getting into the courses, so I didn't really have a feel for what was going to be involved.

[Assistant] It sounded like you were ready for any surprises that came your way then.

[User] Yes. Well, Jim Cooper worked here, but we were the only two co-ops that came back after college to work at Dryden, of the original eight that started. The others all went elsewhere.

[Assistant] Was that the first time that Dryden had had a co-op program as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] It just happened to be your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, Jim Cooper worked here, but we were the only two co-ops that came back after college to work at Dryden, of the original eight that started. The others all went elsewhere.

[Assistant] Was that the first time that Dryden had had a co-op program as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] It just happened to be your group?

[User] It happened to be my group. I think it was the first one with Iowa State. There were other people out here who had been to Iowa State, and graduated from Iowa State, but I think it was the first co-op program at Iowa State. It continued for a few years, but then the co-op program at Iowa State was canceled because they didn't think that Iowa State had enough minorities in their school.

[Assistant] I'm glad you got here when you did. You were here for six months, was that your term, that you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] It just happened to be your group?

[User] It happened to be my group. I think it was the first one with Iowa State. There were other people out here who had been to Iowa State, and graduated from Iowa State, but I think it was the first co-op program at Iowa State. It continued for a few years, but then the co-op program at Iowa State was canceled because they didn't think that Iowa State had enough minorities in their school.

[Assistant] I'm glad you got here when you did. You were here for six months, was that your term, that you said?

[User] Yes. There were three, six months, and then the last one you had to go back for your full senior year of school, so it was only like three months. I should say, Iowa State dropped out of the co-op program, too, because they kept cutting down how many they could send, and pretty soon it got to where the numbers were so small that they couldn't justify rearranging their schedule for them. But the main reason Iowa State got out was because NASA didn't feel they had enough minority students.

[Assistant] That's too bad. When you went back that November, did you have any thoughts of staying back in Iowa, or were you looking forward to coming back here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It happened to be my group. I think it was the first one with Iowa State. There were other people out here who had been to Iowa State, and graduated from Iowa State, but I think it was the first co-op program at Iowa State. It continued for a few years, but then the co-op program at Iowa State was canceled because they didn't think that Iowa State had enough minorities in their school.

[Assistant] I'm glad you got here when you did. You were here for six months, was that your term, that you said?

[User] Yes. There were three, six months, and then the last one you had to go back for your full senior year of school, so it was only like three months. I should say, Iowa State dropped out of the co-op program, too, because they kept cutting down how many they could send, and pretty soon it got to where the numbers were so small that they couldn't justify rearranging their schedule for them. But the main reason Iowa State got out was because NASA didn't feel they had enough minority students.

[Assistant] That's too bad. When you went back that November, did you have any thoughts of staying back in Iowa, or were you looking forward to coming back here?

[User] No, I got into the program, so I was looking forward to coming back. I expected to come back and I was looking forward to it. I'd made friends out here.

[Assistant] When you returned, did your duties change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There were three, six months, and then the last one you had to go back for your full senior year of school, so it was only like three months. I should say, Iowa State dropped out of the co-op program, too, because they kept cutting down how many they could send, and pretty soon it got to where the numbers were so small that they couldn't justify rearranging their schedule for them. But the main reason Iowa State got out was because NASA didn't feel they had enough minority students.

[Assistant] That's too bad. When you went back that November, did you have any thoughts of staying back in Iowa, or were you looking forward to coming back here?

[User] No, I got into the program, so I was looking forward to coming back. I expected to come back and I was looking forward to it. I'd made friends out here.

[Assistant] When you returned, did your duties change?

[User] The overall duties remained the same. The projects would change. But basically, we didn't have the computers yet so you were doing just a lot of hand labor. Used the slide rules. Not the calculators, mechanical calculators so much. Of course, when the hand calculators came in, the hand computers came in, that was a big deal. Everybody had to have one of those. You could use those a lot, but you still were transcribing everything on paper because you didn't have anything.\n\n Then when they started getting the printed ones, ones you could actually print stuff out, that really changed. They started getting to the mainframes, the big computers. A lot of it, for a long time, until the personal computers really started to get on the individual's desk, you still did a lot of hand work. You don't do much of that anymore. Everybody has their own programs that they run instead.

[Assistant] What were some of the first projects that you worked on, other than that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I got into the program, so I was looking forward to coming back. I expected to come back and I was looking forward to it. I'd made friends out here.

[Assistant] When you returned, did your duties change?

[User] The overall duties remained the same. The projects would change. But basically, we didn't have the computers yet so you were doing just a lot of hand labor. Used the slide rules. Not the calculators, mechanical calculators so much. Of course, when the hand calculators came in, the hand computers came in, that was a big deal. Everybody had to have one of those. You could use those a lot, but you still were transcribing everything on paper because you didn't have anything.\n\n Then when they started getting the printed ones, ones you could actually print stuff out, that really changed. They started getting to the mainframes, the big computers. A lot of it, for a long time, until the personal computers really started to get on the individual's desk, you still did a lot of hand work. You don't do much of that anymore. Everybody has their own programs that they run instead.

[Assistant] What were some of the first projects that you worked on, other than that?

[User] X-15. I worked on that. The LLRV continued on for quite a while, and then I worked on the B-70, XB-70 and the X-15 were the first ones.

[Assistant] The LLRV, the first summer, and you built the model and that was your group, and then when you returned, were you able to watch the progression of this vehicle, and could you share some of the evolution of that process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The overall duties remained the same. The projects would change. But basically, we didn't have the computers yet so you were doing just a lot of hand labor. Used the slide rules. Not the calculators, mechanical calculators so much. Of course, when the hand calculators came in, the hand computers came in, that was a big deal. Everybody had to have one of those. You could use those a lot, but you still were transcribing everything on paper because you didn't have anything.\n\n Then when they started getting the printed ones, ones you could actually print stuff out, that really changed. They started getting to the mainframes, the big computers. A lot of it, for a long time, until the personal computers really started to get on the individual's desk, you still did a lot of hand work. You don't do much of that anymore. Everybody has their own programs that they run instead.

[Assistant] What were some of the first projects that you worked on, other than that?

[User] X-15. I worked on that. The LLRV continued on for quite a while, and then I worked on the B-70, XB-70 and the X-15 were the first ones.

[Assistant] The LLRV, the first summer, and you built the model and that was your group, and then when you returned, were you able to watch the progression of this vehicle, and could you share some of the evolution of that process?

[User] Well, the next time I came back, they'd gotten to where they were actually—I think they had some of it built already so now you had to have your configuration control and your drawings to keep everybody updated on that, and I was involved with that at that time. I can't remember when they started flying it. They may have flown it when I was back at school the first time. I don't remember that. I don't remember being involved with the flights on that.

[Assistant] So you didn't get to see it fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] X-15. I worked on that. The LLRV continued on for quite a while, and then I worked on the B-70, XB-70 and the X-15 were the first ones.

[Assistant] The LLRV, the first summer, and you built the model and that was your group, and then when you returned, were you able to watch the progression of this vehicle, and could you share some of the evolution of that process?

[User] Well, the next time I came back, they'd gotten to where they were actually—I think they had some of it built already so now you had to have your configuration control and your drawings to keep everybody updated on that, and I was involved with that at that time. I can't remember when they started flying it. They may have flown it when I was back at school the first time. I don't remember that. I don't remember being involved with the flights on that.

[Assistant] So you didn't get to see it fly?

[User] I don't remember seeing it fly. I remember seeing it on the videotape, but I don't remember seeing it fly. The X-15, obviously—well, you may not be familiar with that, but they were starting their control rooms at that time. I'm not sure when they actually started the control rooms, but you could go up and they'd have a few strip charts they could watch for the X-15 flights. But then when it landed, everybody would go out either on the roof or on the lake bed so you see it come in, and that was always fun.

[Assistant] What was your part of the X-15? You mentioned that you had worked on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the next time I came back, they'd gotten to where they were actually—I think they had some of it built already so now you had to have your configuration control and your drawings to keep everybody updated on that, and I was involved with that at that time. I can't remember when they started flying it. They may have flown it when I was back at school the first time. I don't remember that. I don't remember being involved with the flights on that.

[Assistant] So you didn't get to see it fly?

[User] I don't remember seeing it fly. I remember seeing it on the videotape, but I don't remember seeing it fly. The X-15, obviously—well, you may not be familiar with that, but they were starting their control rooms at that time. I'm not sure when they actually started the control rooms, but you could go up and they'd have a few strip charts they could watch for the X-15 flights. But then when it landed, everybody would go out either on the roof or on the lake bed so you see it come in, and that was always fun.

[Assistant] What was your part of the X-15? You mentioned that you had worked on that.

[User] I worked on the base drag area. I wrote a report about the base drag on the X-15.

[Assistant] Could you give us some details of how you collected that data, and how long it took? Kind of the process of how that came about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The person who wanted the plot, he didn't think that was very funny because that wasn't what he wanted. It looked kind of funny on the plot.

[Assistant] Was there a lot of pressure to get this done in a specific amount of time?

[User] It depended on what group you were in. No. Obviously, the airspeed group was under a lot of pressure because everybody was dependent on their plots to finish their data, calculate their data, so they had a lot of pressure on them. On something like the base pressure, there wasn't near that kind of emphasis on getting it out because it wasn't as important to continuing anything.\n\n So if it was the first flight of anything, then there was usually a lot of pressure to get something out because you wanted to see what the airplane was doing. But after a few flights, then it was more just filling in the points that you didn't have, and making sure that your trends were still the same. Especially if you had some points that were a little funny-looking, you wanted to make sure that you got repeatable data.

[Assistant] The technical report that you mentioned, the information that was contained in it, was it released before you actually published the report, or is the report more of a formalized release of your information?

[User] The report was a formalized releasing of the information. Anything that went out before, well, certainly under a lot of pressure, would have "preliminary" on it. Usually nothing went out of the Center that didn't have a report attached to it, or it was given as a paper somewhere. That was usually the only way the data went out of the Center.

[Assistant] How about among the working members of the team, were you able to pass information informally to inform the other team members?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It depended on what group you were in. No. Obviously, the airspeed group was under a lot of pressure because everybody was dependent on their plots to finish their data, calculate their data, so they had a lot of pressure on them. On something like the base pressure, there wasn't near that kind of emphasis on getting it out because it wasn't as important to continuing anything.\n\n So if it was the first flight of anything, then there was usually a lot of pressure to get something out because you wanted to see what the airplane was doing. But after a few flights, then it was more just filling in the points that you didn't have, and making sure that your trends were still the same. Especially if you had some points that were a little funny-looking, you wanted to make sure that you got repeatable data.

[Assistant] The technical report that you mentioned, the information that was contained in it, was it released before you actually published the report, or is the report more of a formalized release of your information?

[User] The report was a formalized releasing of the information. Anything that went out before, well, certainly under a lot of pressure, would have "preliminary" on it. Usually nothing went out of the Center that didn't have a report attached to it, or it was given as a paper somewhere. That was usually the only way the data went out of the Center.

[Assistant] How about among the working members of the team, were you able to pass information informally to inform the other team members?

[User] Oh, yes. There's a lot of discussion. Yes. Your supervisor would always check to see what was going on, but you'd keep him informed. But yes, there would be a lot of discussion among the people.

[Assistant] Were you part of the discussion groups early on with your career here, or was there a certain level that you became more and more involved in that aspect?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The report was a formalized releasing of the information. Anything that went out before, well, certainly under a lot of pressure, would have "preliminary" on it. Usually nothing went out of the Center that didn't have a report attached to it, or it was given as a paper somewhere. That was usually the only way the data went out of the Center.

[Assistant] How about among the working members of the team, were you able to pass information informally to inform the other team members?

[User] Oh, yes. There's a lot of discussion. Yes. Your supervisor would always check to see what was going on, but you'd keep him informed. But yes, there would be a lot of discussion among the people.

[Assistant] Were you part of the discussion groups early on with your career here, or was there a certain level that you became more and more involved in that aspect?

[User] Well, it depended on importance, how big the question was. The supervisor would usually do a lot of the discussions. If the project team got together, it would depend on what level we wanted to present it at. If it was going to be just an overview, then often the supervisor would give it. If they wanted to get down into more detail, then the people who were actually working on it would often get the information.\n\n So it varied. Kind of like it is now. If you've got somebody coming in from headquarters, usually it's a supervisor that's going to give it. If you've got the team getting together to talk about what they're doing, then it's usually the individuals that give it. It hasn't changed that much.

[Assistant] The technical report that you mentioned, is that the first one that you had published, or when was the first one that you had done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. There's a lot of discussion. Yes. Your supervisor would always check to see what was going on, but you'd keep him informed. But yes, there would be a lot of discussion among the people.

[Assistant] Were you part of the discussion groups early on with your career here, or was there a certain level that you became more and more involved in that aspect?

[User] Well, it depended on importance, how big the question was. The supervisor would usually do a lot of the discussions. If the project team got together, it would depend on what level we wanted to present it at. If it was going to be just an overview, then often the supervisor would give it. If they wanted to get down into more detail, then the people who were actually working on it would often get the information.\n\n So it varied. Kind of like it is now. If you've got somebody coming in from headquarters, usually it's a supervisor that's going to give it. If you've got the team getting together to talk about what they're doing, then it's usually the individuals that give it. It hasn't changed that much.

[Assistant] The technical report that you mentioned, is that the first one that you had published, or when was the first one that you had done?

[User] It was XB-70, I believe, was the first one.

[Assistant] Were you the primary author?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it depended on importance, how big the question was. The supervisor would usually do a lot of the discussions. If the project team got together, it would depend on what level we wanted to present it at. If it was going to be just an overview, then often the supervisor would give it. If they wanted to get down into more detail, then the people who were actually working on it would often get the information.\n\n So it varied. Kind of like it is now. If you've got somebody coming in from headquarters, usually it's a supervisor that's going to give it. If you've got the team getting together to talk about what they're doing, then it's usually the individuals that give it. It hasn't changed that much.

[Assistant] The technical report that you mentioned, is that the first one that you had published, or when was the first one that you had done?

[User] It was XB-70, I believe, was the first one.

[Assistant] Were you the primary author?

[User] No, I was second. The supervisor was the first author on that.

[Assistant] But you've had several that you've published?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was XB-70, I believe, was the first one.

[Assistant] Were you the primary author?

[User] No, I was second. The supervisor was the first author on that.

[Assistant] But you've had several that you've published?

[User] Yes. Yes, I have.

[Assistant] And some as the primary author on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was second. The supervisor was the first author on that.

[Assistant] But you've had several that you've published?

[User] Yes. Yes, I have.

[Assistant] And some as the primary author on?

[User] A lot of them were as the primary author.

[Assistant] Do you like that aspect of compiling information and releasing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, I have.

[Assistant] And some as the primary author on?

[User] A lot of them were as the primary author.

[Assistant] Do you like that aspect of compiling information and releasing it?

[User] Yes, it's kind of a closure. You've thought about the experiment, you've decided what you want to do, you get the information, you compile it all together, and you report on it. It makes a nice closure of what you're doing. Although the report writing itself can be kind of miserable. It's a case of everybody has ideas about how words should be written down, and if you happen to kind of go along the same path as the people who are reviewing it, then it's okay. If you get somebody who doesn't quite think the same way you do, then you wind up doing a lot of rewriting.

[Assistant] You've had both experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of them were as the primary author.

[Assistant] Do you like that aspect of compiling information and releasing it?

[User] Yes, it's kind of a closure. You've thought about the experiment, you've decided what you want to do, you get the information, you compile it all together, and you report on it. It makes a nice closure of what you're doing. Although the report writing itself can be kind of miserable. It's a case of everybody has ideas about how words should be written down, and if you happen to kind of go along the same path as the people who are reviewing it, then it's okay. If you get somebody who doesn't quite think the same way you do, then you wind up doing a lot of rewriting.

[Assistant] You've had both experiences?

[User] Yes. I've been fairly lucky most of the time. I haven't had to do that much rewriting. Some people, have had more problems with that. They just don't happen to think the way somebody else does, and sometimes you get the controversial reports and they kind of toss it back and forth. "Well, we don't really want to say this" and the next guy, "Oh, yes. We do want to talk about this." And so the poor author gets kind of stuck in the middle about who's going to do what. But most of the time it goes fairly smooth.

[Assistant] Has that process changed much since your first days here, to where you are now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the computers were off in their own room. By the time I came, they were all in one room, so there really wasn't any confusion in that respect. Not really. Co-ops always complain about getting all the tedious work, but that's about all you can give to them and they expected that.

[Assistant] Your co-op program lasted several years, but then, of course, you came on as full time. Did your role change, and how did it change once you took the full-time employment?

[User] That one you had to be a little bit careful of, and it was the same way for the boys as the girls, the men and women in the program, because people tended to remember what you had been, so it was a little bit of a transition there. Not real hard, but you just had to be aware of it, that people still remembered you as the co-op, and I can understand that. As I get older, the years, they go by pretty fast. It's hard to keep these people straight and equal.\n\n So that was a concern, but everybody had that problem who was a co-op. You just had to remember that you were no longer the co-op, you were actually the engineer now.

[Assistant] Did you work with co-ops then that were part of your group?

[User] Yes. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] I'm sure they were somewhat grateful to know that you understood what they were going through. Sometimes that helps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That one you had to be a little bit careful of, and it was the same way for the boys as the girls, the men and women in the program, because people tended to remember what you had been, so it was a little bit of a transition there. Not real hard, but you just had to be aware of it, that people still remembered you as the co-op, and I can understand that. As I get older, the years, they go by pretty fast. It's hard to keep these people straight and equal.\n\n So that was a concern, but everybody had that problem who was a co-op. You just had to remember that you were no longer the co-op, you were actually the engineer now.

[Assistant] Did you work with co-ops then that were part of your group?

[User] Yes. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] I'm sure they were somewhat grateful to know that you understood what they were going through. Sometimes that helps.

[User] Yes, it does. Yes, it does help.

[Assistant] When you got here, even as a co-op, and for sure as a full-time person, did you find someone that kind of helped you learn more about the Center, someone that maybe might have served as your mentor, or just someone that you could talk with sometimes when you had questions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, I did.

[Assistant] I'm sure they were somewhat grateful to know that you understood what they were going through. Sometimes that helps.

[User] Yes, it does. Yes, it does help.

[Assistant] When you got here, even as a co-op, and for sure as a full-time person, did you find someone that kind of helped you learn more about the Center, someone that maybe might have served as your mentor, or just someone that you could talk with sometimes when you had questions?

[User] They were more just friends. I wouldn't say they were really mentors. They were more just friends I did things with.

[Assistant] The atmosphere of Dryden, from what we read, it was more of family, close-knit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it does. Yes, it does help.

[Assistant] When you got here, even as a co-op, and for sure as a full-time person, did you find someone that kind of helped you learn more about the Center, someone that maybe might have served as your mentor, or just someone that you could talk with sometimes when you had questions?

[User] They were more just friends. I wouldn't say they were really mentors. They were more just friends I did things with.

[Assistant] The atmosphere of Dryden, from what we read, it was more of family, close-knit.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Especially those early days. Did you find that when you arrived as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were more just friends. I wouldn't say they were really mentors. They were more just friends I did things with.

[Assistant] The atmosphere of Dryden, from what we read, it was more of family, close-knit.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Especially those early days. Did you find that when you arrived as well?

[User] Yes, everybody knew everybody. They had a picnic. Most of the people would go and they all knew each other. They knew their families, they knew their kids. I noticed that. You'd say, "I'm working for so and so," and they'd say, "Oh, yes. I know them" or "We did this together" or something. So yes, it was still that way at that time.

[Assistant] Other social activities. You mentioned that you lived in Lancaster and worked out here. Did people socialize as well after work, other than organized activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] Especially those early days. Did you find that when you arrived as well?

[User] Yes, everybody knew everybody. They had a picnic. Most of the people would go and they all knew each other. They knew their families, they knew their kids. I noticed that. You'd say, "I'm working for so and so," and they'd say, "Oh, yes. I know them" or "We did this together" or something. So yes, it was still that way at that time.

[Assistant] Other social activities. You mentioned that you lived in Lancaster and worked out here. Did people socialize as well after work, other than organized activities?

[User] Yes, they did some socializing. They had their softball teams and there would be quite a few of—the NASA people would be on it. They also had the basketball teams. That's about the main things. And they had people who hiked together and they fished together. So there was some of that.\n\n Hiking was a big thing for the group I was in. The particular people I was around, they really liked the hiking so they were always talking about their hiking trips and they'd go on their long hiking trips and they'd go fishing and they'd do things like that. That was about all they did.\n\n Bike-riding wasn't really a big thing then. You didn't have the ten-speeds yet so that wasn't as big a thing. Some of them had motorcycles, but usually they rode by themselves. They didn't really have those groups yet. There were some activities but you were pretty much on your own. You made your own friends and did your own things. It wasn't a formal activity type thing.

[Assistant] How often did your projects change? You mentioned you were on the X-15 for a while. Did you get other ones as you were on the X-15, or were you finished with one and they moved you to another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did some socializing. They had their softball teams and there would be quite a few of—the NASA people would be on it. They also had the basketball teams. That's about the main things. And they had people who hiked together and they fished together. So there was some of that.\n\n Hiking was a big thing for the group I was in. The particular people I was around, they really liked the hiking so they were always talking about their hiking trips and they'd go on their long hiking trips and they'd go fishing and they'd do things like that. That was about all they did.\n\n Bike-riding wasn't really a big thing then. You didn't have the ten-speeds yet so that wasn't as big a thing. Some of them had motorcycles, but usually they rode by themselves. They didn't really have those groups yet. There were some activities but you were pretty much on your own. You made your own friends and did your own things. It wasn't a formal activity type thing.

[Assistant] How often did your projects change? You mentioned you were on the X-15 for a while. Did you get other ones as you were on the X-15, or were you finished with one and they moved you to another?

[User] You tended to finish a project at that time and gradually, maybe you would be phasing in as the other was phasing out, but you tended to be more one project, unless you were in like the airspeed group because then they would do the airspeed for all the projects, so if you were in a group that was a discipline function, then you would likely be on more than one. But there were enough people in the group that usually you just wound up working on one. They might be working on something different, but you would usually be working on the one project, primarily.

[Assistant] And what group were you—

[User] I was in the vehicle aerodynamics group. That was its name at one time. Like now, the names keep changing but that was the name for a while.

[Assistant] And after the X-15, where did you move to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You tended to finish a project at that time and gradually, maybe you would be phasing in as the other was phasing out, but you tended to be more one project, unless you were in like the airspeed group because then they would do the airspeed for all the projects, so if you were in a group that was a discipline function, then you would likely be on more than one. But there were enough people in the group that usually you just wound up working on one. They might be working on something different, but you would usually be working on the one project, primarily.

[Assistant] And what group were you—

[User] I was in the vehicle aerodynamics group. That was its name at one time. Like now, the names keep changing but that was the name for a while.

[Assistant] And after the X-15, where did you move to?

[User] Let's see, where did I go to then? That would have been the SR-71. I worked on that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Tell us about that. Why was that one fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the vehicle aerodynamics group. That was its name at one time. Like now, the names keep changing but that was the name for a while.

[Assistant] And after the X-15, where did you move to?

[User] Let's see, where did I go to then? That would have been the SR-71. I worked on that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Tell us about that. Why was that one fun?

[User] Well, it was a relatively new airplane at that time, and of course it was secret. This got everybody all excited. We've got a secret project. So everybody always enjoyed that. And it's just a nice-looking airplane. It's a really slick—I don't know what expression I want to use, but it's a very exciting airplane to look at. It looks like it can go fast, and it could, so that was—it was exciting to work on something like that. It was new, relatively new. It was called the YF-12 at that time, because it was a prototype. So that's what made it exciting.\n\n The XB-70 was interesting, but it was kind of a big lumbering-looking airplane. It wasn't nearly as trim and sleek-looking as the SR-71s are. Well, you've probably seen an SR-71. They're a pretty slick-looking airplane. And YF-12s looked just like them, basically.

[Assistant] Did your duties and responsibilities while you were on that project stay the same, or did they change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see, where did I go to then? That would have been the SR-71. I worked on that. That was fun.

[Assistant] Tell us about that. Why was that one fun?

[User] Well, it was a relatively new airplane at that time, and of course it was secret. This got everybody all excited. We've got a secret project. So everybody always enjoyed that. And it's just a nice-looking airplane. It's a really slick—I don't know what expression I want to use, but it's a very exciting airplane to look at. It looks like it can go fast, and it could, so that was—it was exciting to work on something like that. It was new, relatively new. It was called the YF-12 at that time, because it was a prototype. So that's what made it exciting.\n\n The XB-70 was interesting, but it was kind of a big lumbering-looking airplane. It wasn't nearly as trim and sleek-looking as the SR-71s are. Well, you've probably seen an SR-71. They're a pretty slick-looking airplane. And YF-12s looked just like them, basically.

[Assistant] Did your duties and responsibilities while you were on that project stay the same, or did they change?

[User] They stayed somewhat the same. You had more responsibility or worked more independently. The supervisor knew that you could handle it so they didn't follow you as close. It was more just checking up to see how things were going than what you actually were doing, so that worked out pretty good.

[Assistant] Was it more and more of a one-on-one tag-up with your supervisors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a relatively new airplane at that time, and of course it was secret. This got everybody all excited. We've got a secret project. So everybody always enjoyed that. And it's just a nice-looking airplane. It's a really slick—I don't know what expression I want to use, but it's a very exciting airplane to look at. It looks like it can go fast, and it could, so that was—it was exciting to work on something like that. It was new, relatively new. It was called the YF-12 at that time, because it was a prototype. So that's what made it exciting.\n\n The XB-70 was interesting, but it was kind of a big lumbering-looking airplane. It wasn't nearly as trim and sleek-looking as the SR-71s are. Well, you've probably seen an SR-71. They're a pretty slick-looking airplane. And YF-12s looked just like them, basically.

[Assistant] Did your duties and responsibilities while you were on that project stay the same, or did they change?

[User] They stayed somewhat the same. You had more responsibility or worked more independently. The supervisor knew that you could handle it so they didn't follow you as close. It was more just checking up to see how things were going than what you actually were doing, so that worked out pretty good.

[Assistant] Was it more and more of a one-on-one tag-up with your supervisors?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they have team meetings of everyone within your group to trade information, or did you need to know what other people in your group were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They stayed somewhat the same. You had more responsibility or worked more independently. The supervisor knew that you could handle it so they didn't follow you as close. It was more just checking up to see how things were going than what you actually were doing, so that worked out pretty good.

[Assistant] Was it more and more of a one-on-one tag-up with your supervisors?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they have team meetings of everyone within your group to trade information, or did you need to know what other people in your group were doing?

[User] Not usually. They were usually on a different project, so you didn't really need to know. If anything came up you thought was important that everybody should know about, then you'd share that, but most of the time you didn't. Some of the groups, I didn't wind up in one of those, you'd actually be the whole project. They had a YF-12 project office, but the people in our group didn't actually sit in that office. We were more of the piggy-back experiments, and so we didn't sit in with them. They were more the primary experiments. The piggy-back experiment, you didn't have to come up with as much money because, after all, I'm going along for the ride, so I don't have to pay for as much. And so our office tended to do more of that at that time.

[Assistant] Where were you located physically on the Center, what building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, it's changed. It's more now that for the women, you know, true equality, I read it somewhere and I don't know who I read it from, but true equality is when the people of equal ability get to have the same chance for the job. And for women and I suspect for a lot of minorities, it's not equal ability. You have to be vastly superior before you can be considered for the job, and there's still a lot of that. It's not equal ability, so you have to be more capable than your competition. If you're equally capable, then chances are you're not going to get it.

[Assistant] Have you had opportunities for advancement since you've been here. Surely, hopefully, they don't still see you as the co-op?

[User] No, they don't see me as the co-op. Yes, I've had some opportunities. Most of the women that have advanced, it helps if you're more aggressive. You don't have to be but it helps a lot.

[Assistant] It's still mainly men at Dryden, or are the numbers starting to shift to where there are more women?

[User] It's still mainly men. There's a few women, but it's still primarily men. The women who are at the, what would be considered more the senior management level, are definitely more aggressive than a lot of women are. It's not to say there's anything bad about it, their personalities are just much more aggressive than most of the other women are.

[Assistant] How about the engineering field? Do you have more colleagues that are females now than you've had before, or do you see that number increasing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's usually not the way we do it here. Like most places, somebody says they're going to retire and then they retire and then they decide, well, son of a gun, they did retire. Now we've got to get somebody in that job. There's a tendency to do that, but there's enough work going on that you don't want to double up on this one particular area in essentially a teacher-student type mode, and so you wind up with the person leaving and then the next guy that comes in picks it up.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about other projects that you've worked on. You mentioned the SR-71. Did something follow that was as exciting as that one?

[User] I worked on the F-111 Mission Adaptive Wing [MAW]. That was fun. It was a big project. That was a lot of fun. It was another one to do on the F-111. It wasn't the MAW at that time, but it was more base drag, more looking at ways to alleviate base drag. So it was interesting.\n\n The MAW was—it was a pretty big project, and I wound up being the technical chairman of the committee of the last presentation they had for the MAW, and that was interesting, working with all the different people.

[Assistant] Was that the first time you had done something like that?

[User] Yes. It involved getting them all to get their papers written. A lot of nagging.

[Assistant] Mother hen type of thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked on the F-111 Mission Adaptive Wing [MAW]. That was fun. It was a big project. That was a lot of fun. It was another one to do on the F-111. It wasn't the MAW at that time, but it was more base drag, more looking at ways to alleviate base drag. So it was interesting.\n\n The MAW was—it was a pretty big project, and I wound up being the technical chairman of the committee of the last presentation they had for the MAW, and that was interesting, working with all the different people.

[Assistant] Was that the first time you had done something like that?

[User] Yes. It involved getting them all to get their papers written. A lot of nagging.

[Assistant] Mother hen type of thing.

[User] Yes. That's what the technical chairman winds up doing a lot of, because you have to get the papers all together, you have to get the presentations all together. They all have to come around at the same time. And it's checking up, "How are you doing on this? Do you need any help? What are the problems you're having?"

[Assistant] Did you have a time period that you had to have all that done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It involved getting them all to get their papers written. A lot of nagging.

[Assistant] Mother hen type of thing.

[User] Yes. That's what the technical chairman winds up doing a lot of, because you have to get the papers all together, you have to get the presentations all together. They all have to come around at the same time. And it's checking up, "How are you doing on this? Do you need any help? What are the problems you're having?"

[Assistant] Did you have a time period that you had to have all that done?

[User] Oh, yes. We had a time period, so you mapped it all out. This is when the symposium is going to be held. Okay, so this is when everything has to be done, and this is what has to be done, and you just set up dates by when you need to meet these certain deadlines, otherwise you aren't going to make it at the end. We made it.

[Assistant] Did you have to travel and do presentations about some of the work that you were working on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's what the technical chairman winds up doing a lot of, because you have to get the papers all together, you have to get the presentations all together. They all have to come around at the same time. And it's checking up, "How are you doing on this? Do you need any help? What are the problems you're having?"

[Assistant] Did you have a time period that you had to have all that done?

[User] Oh, yes. We had a time period, so you mapped it all out. This is when the symposium is going to be held. Okay, so this is when everything has to be done, and this is what has to be done, and you just set up dates by when you need to meet these certain deadlines, otherwise you aren't going to make it at the end. We made it.

[Assistant] Did you have to travel and do presentations about some of the work that you were working on?

[User] Not as much. There wasn't as much traveling as there is now. I did do some presentations at groups, but not as much as happens now. Probably about the last five years or so, it seems like they've been traveling a lot. I think that's going to end, too, because the travel money is getting tighter. NASA, to me, appears to be in—we’re in another change, and what's going to be happening after the change, nobody's really quite sure, and it's really traumatic because the old ways, the old days, are gone and we aren't sure what the new days are going to be like.

[Assistant] Thinking about those older days, is there a project or a time period that you reflect on as being one of your favorites since you've been here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. We had a time period, so you mapped it all out. This is when the symposium is going to be held. Okay, so this is when everything has to be done, and this is what has to be done, and you just set up dates by when you need to meet these certain deadlines, otherwise you aren't going to make it at the end. We made it.

[Assistant] Did you have to travel and do presentations about some of the work that you were working on?

[User] Not as much. There wasn't as much traveling as there is now. I did do some presentations at groups, but not as much as happens now. Probably about the last five years or so, it seems like they've been traveling a lot. I think that's going to end, too, because the travel money is getting tighter. NASA, to me, appears to be in—we’re in another change, and what's going to be happening after the change, nobody's really quite sure, and it's really traumatic because the old ways, the old days, are gone and we aren't sure what the new days are going to be like.

[Assistant] Thinking about those older days, is there a project or a time period that you reflect on as being one of your favorites since you've been here?

[User] Probably the SR-71. That was a lot of fun. You had to go down to this separate hangar because you had to keep it in a secret hangar, so you had to have all the badges to get in there. That was fun.

[Assistant] Were you able to witness the flight testing of that as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as much. There wasn't as much traveling as there is now. I did do some presentations at groups, but not as much as happens now. Probably about the last five years or so, it seems like they've been traveling a lot. I think that's going to end, too, because the travel money is getting tighter. NASA, to me, appears to be in—we’re in another change, and what's going to be happening after the change, nobody's really quite sure, and it's really traumatic because the old ways, the old days, are gone and we aren't sure what the new days are going to be like.

[Assistant] Thinking about those older days, is there a project or a time period that you reflect on as being one of your favorites since you've been here?

[User] Probably the SR-71. That was a lot of fun. You had to go down to this separate hangar because you had to keep it in a secret hangar, so you had to have all the badges to get in there. That was fun.

[Assistant] Were you able to witness the flight testing of that as well?

[User] Oh, yes. You sat in the control room and you'd see what was going on. Strip charts were really advancing by then so you had a lot of strip charts you could look at.

[Assistant] Were a lot of people in the control rooms at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably the SR-71. That was a lot of fun. You had to go down to this separate hangar because you had to keep it in a secret hangar, so you had to have all the badges to get in there. That was fun.

[Assistant] Were you able to witness the flight testing of that as well?

[User] Oh, yes. You sat in the control room and you'd see what was going on. Strip charts were really advancing by then so you had a lot of strip charts you could look at.

[Assistant] Were a lot of people in the control rooms at the time?

[User] Yes. Actually, there were quite a few. It's people on the project, so I don't know how many would have been in there. I don't know, ten, twelve, fifteen. I don't know. There was quite a few in there.

[Assistant] Were you able to see what they were doing or were you so focused on what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. You sat in the control room and you'd see what was going on. Strip charts were really advancing by then so you had a lot of strip charts you could look at.

[Assistant] Were a lot of people in the control rooms at the time?

[User] Yes. Actually, there were quite a few. It's people on the project, so I don't know how many would have been in there. I don't know, ten, twelve, fifteen. I don't know. There was quite a few in there.

[Assistant] Were you able to see what they were doing or were you so focused on what you were doing?

[User] Usually you were focused on what you were doing, because your purpose at the strip chart was to see, how is your data? Are they getting the data you need? Are they getting the point you want? Is your instrumentation working okay? That was your purpose of being in there, so you could check to see when your point was taken. And because the flights were so long, you kept track of when your points and they only processed certain parts of the tape. They didn't process the whole, I think they were like three-hour flights. They didn't process the whole flight then because you didn't need it. Nothing was there that you were interested in.

[Assistant] Was there a time that you thought maybe this wasn't a good decision for you to be here, some time frustrating that you just maybe wished that you could move on some place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Actually, there were quite a few. It's people on the project, so I don't know how many would have been in there. I don't know, ten, twelve, fifteen. I don't know. There was quite a few in there.

[Assistant] Were you able to see what they were doing or were you so focused on what you were doing?

[User] Usually you were focused on what you were doing, because your purpose at the strip chart was to see, how is your data? Are they getting the data you need? Are they getting the point you want? Is your instrumentation working okay? That was your purpose of being in there, so you could check to see when your point was taken. And because the flights were so long, you kept track of when your points and they only processed certain parts of the tape. They didn't process the whole, I think they were like three-hour flights. They didn't process the whole flight then because you didn't need it. Nothing was there that you were interested in.

[Assistant] Was there a time that you thought maybe this wasn't a good decision for you to be here, some time frustrating that you just maybe wished that you could move on some place?

[User] Yes. I think everybody runs into that. But I didn't move on at that time. It might have been better, it might not have. Most of the people that move on—a lot of the people that move on, move on within about the first, probably about the first five or six years, because they're starting to get enough experience, they're starting to move up in whatever they want to do, and then it becomes clear at that point whether the path they want to take is going to be open. And so if it's not, then that's when they decide whether they're going to stay and take the ultimate path or whether they're going to move on and try and find another path.

[Assistant] Tell me about your silver Snoopy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think everybody runs into that. But I didn't move on at that time. It might have been better, it might not have. Most of the people that move on—a lot of the people that move on, move on within about the first, probably about the first five or six years, because they're starting to get enough experience, they're starting to move up in whatever they want to do, and then it becomes clear at that point whether the path they want to take is going to be open. And so if it's not, then that's when they decide whether they're going to stay and take the ultimate path or whether they're going to move on and try and find another path.

[Assistant] Tell me about your silver Snoopy.

[User] I did work on the Space Shuttle. It was the first one. Was it the Enterprise?

[Assistant] The Enterprise.

[User] My mind's going here. So it was just basically the drop test, and I worked on the airspeed part of that, so that was interesting, too. I enjoyed that.

[Assistant] That was something completely different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did work on the Space Shuttle. It was the first one. Was it the Enterprise?

[Assistant] The Enterprise.

[User] My mind's going here. So it was just basically the drop test, and I worked on the airspeed part of that, so that was interesting, too. I enjoyed that.

[Assistant] That was something completely different.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts when you were assigned to that project and learned what you were going to be doing in this totally different aircraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mind's going here. So it was just basically the drop test, and I worked on the airspeed part of that, so that was interesting, too. I enjoyed that.

[Assistant] That was something completely different.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts when you were assigned to that project and learned what you were going to be doing in this totally different aircraft?

[User] Well, naturally, since you have the old naysayers here, there was a lot of discussion about, they can't do it, they'll never be able to land it on a given spot, can't do it. And obviously, they did do it. It was pretty exciting because you weren't sure what was going to happen, whether it really was going to do it or not.\n\n So it was exciting, to see that happening. You weren't sure when it went off the plane if the whole thing wasn't going to crash into the tail and knock both planes out of the sky. You can do all your studies, but when they finally actually do something, that's when you find out whether your studies are right or not. So it was exciting.

[Assistant] How long were you working on those studies before they actually tried it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts when you were assigned to that project and learned what you were going to be doing in this totally different aircraft?

[User] Well, naturally, since you have the old naysayers here, there was a lot of discussion about, they can't do it, they'll never be able to land it on a given spot, can't do it. And obviously, they did do it. It was pretty exciting because you weren't sure what was going to happen, whether it really was going to do it or not.\n\n So it was exciting, to see that happening. You weren't sure when it went off the plane if the whole thing wasn't going to crash into the tail and knock both planes out of the sky. You can do all your studies, but when they finally actually do something, that's when you find out whether your studies are right or not. So it was exciting.

[Assistant] How long were you working on those studies before they actually tried it?

[User] I'm not sure. I probably spent, I don't know, maybe two years on that total.

[Assistant] Were you able to watch the testing as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, naturally, since you have the old naysayers here, there was a lot of discussion about, they can't do it, they'll never be able to land it on a given spot, can't do it. And obviously, they did do it. It was pretty exciting because you weren't sure what was going to happen, whether it really was going to do it or not.\n\n So it was exciting, to see that happening. You weren't sure when it went off the plane if the whole thing wasn't going to crash into the tail and knock both planes out of the sky. You can do all your studies, but when they finally actually do something, that's when you find out whether your studies are right or not. So it was exciting.

[Assistant] How long were you working on those studies before they actually tried it?

[User] I'm not sure. I probably spent, I don't know, maybe two years on that total.

[Assistant] Were you able to watch the testing as well?

[User] Yes, I was up in the control room.

[Assistant] That must have been so exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure. I probably spent, I don't know, maybe two years on that total.

[Assistant] Were you able to watch the testing as well?

[User] Yes, I was up in the control room.

[Assistant] That must have been so exciting.

[User] Yes, it was. We got some data off the first flight, so the Space Shuttle was coming back to see if it was agreeing, so it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Have you seen it land here as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was up in the control room.

[Assistant] That must have been so exciting.

[User] Yes, it was. We got some data off the first flight, so the Space Shuttle was coming back to see if it was agreeing, so it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Have you seen it land here as well?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] From an actual flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. We got some data off the first flight, so the Space Shuttle was coming back to see if it was agreeing, so it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Have you seen it land here as well?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] From an actual flight?

[User] Yes. Almost saw it take off. My husband actually got the trip for that. He worked on the Shuttle as well. But they aborted that flight, so he didn't get to see it launch.

[Assistant] Maybe one day soon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] From an actual flight?

[User] Yes. Almost saw it take off. My husband actually got the trip for that. He worked on the Shuttle as well. But they aborted that flight, so he didn't get to see it launch.

[Assistant] Maybe one day soon.

[User] Maybe one day. I did see an Apollo launch, though.

[Assistant] Were you working here at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Almost saw it take off. My husband actually got the trip for that. He worked on the Shuttle as well. But they aborted that flight, so he didn't get to see it launch.

[Assistant] Maybe one day soon.

[User] Maybe one day. I did see an Apollo launch, though.

[Assistant] Were you working here at the time?

[User] Yes. The director at that time had connections at Kennedy, so a number of us planned a big trip back to Kennedy to see the Apollo launch.

[Assistant] Of course, I didn't see Saturn [rocket], but I understand watching a Saturn V launch was pretty impressive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe one day. I did see an Apollo launch, though.

[Assistant] Were you working here at the time?

[User] Yes. The director at that time had connections at Kennedy, so a number of us planned a big trip back to Kennedy to see the Apollo launch.

[Assistant] Of course, I didn't see Saturn [rocket], but I understand watching a Saturn V launch was pretty impressive.

[User] I almost didn't go either. They kept delaying it and delaying it and we kept staying and staying, and finally it went off, so it was fun.

[Assistant] Do you remember which one it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The director at that time had connections at Kennedy, so a number of us planned a big trip back to Kennedy to see the Apollo launch.

[Assistant] Of course, I didn't see Saturn [rocket], but I understand watching a Saturn V launch was pretty impressive.

[User] I almost didn't go either. They kept delaying it and delaying it and we kept staying and staying, and finally it went off, so it was fun.

[Assistant] Do you remember which one it was?

[User] No, I don't. [Apollo 17]

[Assistant] It was a few years back. That's understandable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I almost didn't go either. They kept delaying it and delaying it and we kept staying and staying, and finally it went off, so it was fun.

[Assistant] Do you remember which one it was?

[User] No, I don't. [Apollo 17]

[Assistant] It was a few years back. That's understandable.

[User] I can't remember which one it was now. It was one of the night launches, though. I've got some nice pictures of it launching.

[Assistant] Did you keep up with the LLRV from where it left here? I know that that was about the time that you were finishing school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't. [Apollo 17]

[Assistant] It was a few years back. That's understandable.

[User] I can't remember which one it was now. It was one of the night launches, though. I've got some nice pictures of it launching.

[Assistant] Did you keep up with the LLRV from where it left here? I know that that was about the time that you were finishing school.

[User] No, I didn't really keep up with it after that. I'm not sure anybody really did much keeping up with it. Once it leaves here it's hard to be involved with it anymore.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Space Shuttle and also I believe you worked on the X-29. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember which one it was now. It was one of the night launches, though. I've got some nice pictures of it launching.

[Assistant] Did you keep up with the LLRV from where it left here? I know that that was about the time that you were finishing school.

[User] No, I didn't really keep up with it after that. I'm not sure anybody really did much keeping up with it. Once it leaves here it's hard to be involved with it anymore.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Space Shuttle and also I believe you worked on the X-29. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. Not as much, but I did work on it, yes. I did a parameter estimation study on that.

[Assistant] How was it different, or was it different, from the other projects that you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't really keep up with it after that. I'm not sure anybody really did much keeping up with it. Once it leaves here it's hard to be involved with it anymore.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Space Shuttle and also I believe you worked on the X-29. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. Not as much, but I did work on it, yes. I did a parameter estimation study on that.

[Assistant] How was it different, or was it different, from the other projects that you worked on?

[User] This was actually more a paper study. I didn't have an actual experiment on the plane, so that was different. Usually I had an experiment on the plane, but this one I didn't. Some of these things just kind of run together in your mind, actually.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Sandra. You have any—

Just thinking back, the time you were here and just what was going on in the country and the dress code the women followed more so then than they do now. Have you noticed a lot of changes as far as how you're allowed to dress, or was there an actual dress code at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Not as much, but I did work on it, yes. I did a parameter estimation study on that.

[Assistant] How was it different, or was it different, from the other projects that you worked on?

[User] This was actually more a paper study. I didn't have an actual experiment on the plane, so that was different. Usually I had an experiment on the plane, but this one I didn't. Some of these things just kind of run together in your mind, actually.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Sandra. You have any—

Just thinking back, the time you were here and just what was going on in the country and the dress code the women followed more so then than they do now. Have you noticed a lot of changes as far as how you're allowed to dress, or was there an actual dress code at that time?

[User] Not a written dress code, but, yes, there was a dress code. You wore skirts to work, dresses. You didn't wear slacks. You just didn't wear slacks.

[Assistant] Did that make it hard to do your job sometimes? I mean, if you're having to go out and check out planes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as much. I was so happy to get it out [laughter]. I have found out more about the first expresses that were published. I could add that in there. I haven't really thought that much about it. Like I said, it took me a long time to get it out.

[Assistant] How long? Estimate the time.

[User] Probably about three years. And I got down to where I was almost ready to go. I was trying to make an SP [Special Publication] because it didn't fit in any other categories, so I thought it would be a special publication, and I couldn't get approval from a supervisor that I needed to get approval to have it as an SP, as it was. So I sent it off to headquarters. I saw an article about the history office back there, so I just sent it off to the headquarters history guy.

[Assistant] And it worked.

[User] And it worked.

[Assistant] What kind of feedback are you getting back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably about three years. And I got down to where I was almost ready to go. I was trying to make an SP [Special Publication] because it didn't fit in any other categories, so I thought it would be a special publication, and I couldn't get approval from a supervisor that I needed to get approval to have it as an SP, as it was. So I sent it off to headquarters. I saw an article about the history office back there, so I just sent it off to the headquarters history guy.

[Assistant] And it worked.

[User] And it worked.

[Assistant] What kind of feedback are you getting back?

[User] Positive. I got a lot of positive feedback on that one. One of the best-selling ones I've ever written. [Laughter] People actually say they read it and they like it. One of the engineers who I talked to a lot about it says he—he hasn't told me, he's told a friend of mine, who then told me, that he thinks it's a really great paper, he really enjoys all the stuff in it, and he uses it a lot.\n\n So I've got a lot of feedback from it. The Embry-Riddle [Aeronautical University] used it for one of their courses. I have no idea what they used it for but they used it for one of their courses. I think it probably would have been for the data reduction section that had the film recorders, and it's been referenced by a guy who wrote about film recorders. He was writing about that. It's been very pleasant. I've been very pleased with the reaction I got from people. I've got a lot of positive comments from people about it.

[Assistant] Well, we've certainly learned a lot from it. Some of the women that you've talked about, when we talked to them about it, were very pleased that that information has gotten out. Do you have another project in the works, or are you planning another writing project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it worked.

[Assistant] What kind of feedback are you getting back?

[User] Positive. I got a lot of positive feedback on that one. One of the best-selling ones I've ever written. [Laughter] People actually say they read it and they like it. One of the engineers who I talked to a lot about it says he—he hasn't told me, he's told a friend of mine, who then told me, that he thinks it's a really great paper, he really enjoys all the stuff in it, and he uses it a lot.\n\n So I've got a lot of feedback from it. The Embry-Riddle [Aeronautical University] used it for one of their courses. I have no idea what they used it for but they used it for one of their courses. I think it probably would have been for the data reduction section that had the film recorders, and it's been referenced by a guy who wrote about film recorders. He was writing about that. It's been very pleasant. I've been very pleased with the reaction I got from people. I've got a lot of positive comments from people about it.

[Assistant] Well, we've certainly learned a lot from it. Some of the women that you've talked about, when we talked to them about it, were very pleased that that information has gotten out. Do you have another project in the works, or are you planning another writing project?

[User] I don't know. I haven't thought of another one. Like I said, if I hadn't sent it to headquarters, it would not have been published, because the supervisor that needed to sign it simply was not going to sign off to get it published.

[Assistant] Well, at least you have an avenue now to go with if you have another idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was nice.

[Assistant] —the group that you're involved with. Are there any other areas that you can think of that—or projects, any anecdotes of being at Dryden? How many years have you been here?

[User] Thirty-eight. No, I can't really think of anything in particular. We had the old cafeteria. The old cafeteria was in 4800. It was a big shock to people when they had to walk outside the building to the cafeteria. It was bad news as far as they were concerned. A lot of grumbling about that.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Oh, yes. Before, you didn't have to go outside. You'd just go down to the cafeteria and get your ice cream cones and they would scoop out the ice cream for you.

[Assistant] Was that kind of a time at lunch, too, that everybody saw everybody else, when the cafeteria was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They'd be in the tech briefs, they'd be in the pre- and post-flight briefs. But no, you didn't work that closely. Most of the people didn't work that closely with the pilots. The crew was obviously the ones that worked really close with the pilots, they worked really close with. They knew who you were, you could talk to them, they were friendly enough, but I didn't work that closely and most of the engineers didn't work that closely with them.\n\n If you were involved with a simulator, then you would have worked closely with the pilots because they would have come down to run the simulator so then you would have gotten to know them better, but I didn't work with the simulators. Otherwise, you just wouldn't have a chance to be with them. But that's why it's been really hard for the Center because a lot of the flight projects have gone away. The pilots are really dismal because there's not that much—compared to what there used to be to fly, there's not that much to fly anymore, so it's been hard.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly hope for your sake, on a personal basis and professional basis, that before you decide to end your career at Dryden that it'll swing again and allow some more excitement for your work on some projects that you really will enjoy doing before you decide not to do this anymore.

[User] Yes, that would be nice, but I suspect I'll retire before then.

[Assistant] Then you'll have opportunity to write more books.

[User] That's right. I can spend more time writing books and researching. I did enjoy doing that one. It was interesting, once I got into it. It's always hard for me to get started, get the words down and get started in those thoughts.

[Assistant] Well, it was definitely different than any of the rest of the reports that you had done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that would be nice, but I suspect I'll retire before then.

[Assistant] Then you'll have opportunity to write more books.

[User] That's right. I can spend more time writing books and researching. I did enjoy doing that one. It was interesting, once I got into it. It's always hard for me to get started, get the words down and get started in those thoughts.

[Assistant] Well, it was definitely different than any of the rest of the reports that you had done.

[User] It's a different way of writing. The reports used to be quite structured in how they wanted them written, even down to the tense you were supposed to use. And so you got used to that because they changed it all, so you might as well start out with that. It was a change to go to a different way of writing. It was a completely different style.

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck on the next one and look forward to reading it, whatever it may be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. I can spend more time writing books and researching. I did enjoy doing that one. It was interesting, once I got into it. It's always hard for me to get started, get the words down and get started in those thoughts.

[Assistant] Well, it was definitely different than any of the rest of the reports that you had done.

[User] It's a different way of writing. The reports used to be quite structured in how they wanted them written, even down to the tense you were supposed to use. And so you got used to that because they changed it all, so you might as well start out with that. It was a change to go to a different way of writing. It was a completely different style.

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck on the next one and look forward to reading it, whatever it may be.

[User] Are you going to write one?

[Assistant] We'd like to. We are finishing a book that we worked with the author on the Shuttle-Mir project, so we've had our hands at helping to write and organize and do whatever. But our main job right now is just to gather the history before it's gone, or before people don't want to talk about it, so we're hoping to stay with our project as long as we can.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a different way of writing. The reports used to be quite structured in how they wanted them written, even down to the tense you were supposed to use. And so you got used to that because they changed it all, so you might as well start out with that. It was a change to go to a different way of writing. It was a completely different style.

[Assistant] Well, we wish you luck on the next one and look forward to reading it, whatever it may be.

[User] Are you going to write one?

[Assistant] We'd like to. We are finishing a book that we worked with the author on the Shuttle-Mir project, so we've had our hands at helping to write and organize and do whatever. But our main job right now is just to gather the history before it's gone, or before people don't want to talk about it, so we're hoping to stay with our project as long as we can.

[User] Yes, the numbers are dwindling rapidly, as far as talking to the ones here in the fifties, the forties. They're starting to disappear, so time is not on your side.

[Assistant] And that may be something you can help pick up with. But we wish you luck in the future, and thank you again for talking with us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And the fact that it was the Navy that didn't want to put sprinklers in that building. They were afraid they would leak.

Some irony there.

[Assistant]
Well, I think that is all I have. Jessie, did you have anything else that you wanted to follow up on?

No, I think you both did such a good job anticipating all the questions that I kept jotting down and you answered them. So I guess—.

[User] I saw your cat was helping you, too.

[Assistant] I know. It's lunch time. But I just want to thank you guys for providing this really important service to our veterans and sharing your stories with us. And it's obvious that you both really enjoy the work that you do. Yeah.

[User]
Thanks for giving us a chance to share. It's important. We're glad somebody's remembering this fire. Mike's been asking me for months: "What are they doing about the fire? What are they doing about the fire?" So thank you for letting us participate. We appreciate it.

And if you come up with anything else, you know where to find me.

[Assistant] Okay. Yes. I'll reach out to you once the meeting is over. If either of you have any photos that you want to share, you know, the fire or just of yourselves that we can post along with your interview, that would be great, also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw your cat was helping you, too.

[Assistant] I know. It's lunch time. But I just want to thank you guys for providing this really important service to our veterans and sharing your stories with us. And it's obvious that you both really enjoy the work that you do. Yeah.

[User]
Thanks for giving us a chance to share. It's important. We're glad somebody's remembering this fire. Mike's been asking me for months: "What are they doing about the fire? What are they doing about the fire?" So thank you for letting us participate. We appreciate it.

And if you come up with anything else, you know where to find me.

[Assistant] Okay. Yes. I'll reach out to you once the meeting is over. If either of you have any photos that you want to share, you know, the fire or just of yourselves that we can post along with your interview, that would be great, also.

[User]
Okay. I think you have access to all the photos I have. Mike might have some that the center doesn't have. I know you do.

Okay. I turned all that stuff over to Dave, which reminds me, he's probably already told you, but he had cassettes of the calls for the whole period, the fire calls. And a few years ago we had a friend who was an audio engineer. And we transferred them to CD. And so Dave's got that, and I'm sure some of it can be really hard to hear. But I'm sure technology has improved enough now that, you know, if you can get him to burn you copies of those CDs and send them to you, you've got something you can run them through and improve them. Improve them just that much more.

[Assistant] Well, you have given us so much information today and just, you know, for things to follow up on. This is extremely helpful. We really appreciate both of you taking time out today to talk to us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Okay. I think you have access to all the photos I have. Mike might have some that the center doesn't have. I know you do.

Okay. I turned all that stuff over to Dave, which reminds me, he's probably already told you, but he had cassettes of the calls for the whole period, the fire calls. And a few years ago we had a friend who was an audio engineer. And we transferred them to CD. And so Dave's got that, and I'm sure some of it can be really hard to hear. But I'm sure technology has improved enough now that, you know, if you can get him to burn you copies of those CDs and send them to you, you've got something you can run them through and improve them. Improve them just that much more.

[Assistant] Well, you have given us so much information today and just, you know, for things to follow up on. This is extremely helpful. We really appreciate both of you taking time out today to talk to us.

[User]
Thank you. Yeah.

Dave Dubowski is your man.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User]
He's a good one.

Yeah, he's a good guy.

Yeah. And he's the one that comes and checks our building. He's the closest to us, too, which is interesting that he's the one that keeps us safe. So, yeah.

All right. Thank you, guys.

[Assistant] Well, thank you so much. And, yes, I'll reach out to you here shortly. All right. Thank you. Bye.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was received very well. We testified before Congress, and we briefed it widely to the National Research Council, the President’s Science Advisor, and a variety of other groups.\n\n There were several things that came out of it. One was NASA’s Mission to Planet Earth; another was the Office of Exploration. It also resulted in more emphasis on long-range exploration within the agency.

[Assistant] Were you able to help implement any of those plans and initiatives, or was your report issued about the time that you were getting ready to leave the agency?

[User] I was able to follow those initiatives for a while. I spent time with the technology division, working with them to understand what our report meant to them. And I worked quite a bit with Mission to Planet Earth.\n\n But I left the agency shortly thereafter. Most work that I did after the report was issued was setting up the Office of Exploration.

[Assistant] You returned to Stanford [University, Stanford, California] after you left the agency, and since then you’ve been active in a number of areas. We’d like to talk to you about some of those areas, but before we do, we would like to know if you could possibly tell us what your most challenging milestone was while you were working with the space program.

[User] I think my biggest challenge was just trying to breathe right after the engines ignited on my first launch! It’s hard to say what my most challenging milestone was. The space program is wonderful in that it is a series of challenges and a series of very interesting and very rewarding experiences.

[Assistant] Do you find it difficult to pick out one that you would consider the most significant accomplishment that you made while you were at NASA? Is there something you would like to consider that you left as a legacy for others to see?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was able to follow those initiatives for a while. I spent time with the technology division, working with them to understand what our report meant to them. And I worked quite a bit with Mission to Planet Earth.\n\n But I left the agency shortly thereafter. Most work that I did after the report was issued was setting up the Office of Exploration.

[Assistant] You returned to Stanford [University, Stanford, California] after you left the agency, and since then you’ve been active in a number of areas. We’d like to talk to you about some of those areas, but before we do, we would like to know if you could possibly tell us what your most challenging milestone was while you were working with the space program.

[User] I think my biggest challenge was just trying to breathe right after the engines ignited on my first launch! It’s hard to say what my most challenging milestone was. The space program is wonderful in that it is a series of challenges and a series of very interesting and very rewarding experiences.

[Assistant] Do you find it difficult to pick out one that you would consider the most significant accomplishment that you made while you were at NASA? Is there something you would like to consider that you left as a legacy for others to see?

[User] It is, because I think it depends on the way that you interpret that question. Certainly my most significant legacy will be that I was the first American woman to go into space. That’s very rewarding for me. And the more time that passes, the more I appreciate that.\n\n But some of things that I’m very proud of are my work on the robot arm, my work as a CapCom [Capsule Communicator], of course my two spaceflights, and the report that I did for NASA Headquarters.

[Assistant] As I mentioned, you went back to Stanford and got very active, of course, working there. You also were very active in a number of other areas, a lot of them dealing with children. We’d like you to comment on some of those. For instance, KidSat. Can you tell us how you got involved with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share with us how you were able to do that?

[User] I wrote the first one shortly after my second flight. It was called\n\n To Space and Back\n\n , and it’s about what it’s like to go on a Space Shuttle flight. I wanted to write it for kids—ten-, eleven-, twelve-, thirteen-, fourteen-year-old kids—because I’d been doing a lot of speaking, and it was really obvious that kids are fascinated by the space program. They love hearing about astronauts, about launch, about weightlessness. The book is a good way to encourage their interest in science and teach them a little bit while they’re not looking.\n\n I got together with an old friend from high school, who was a writer, and she and I co-authored that book. It came out in 1986. A few years after I left NASA, a different publisher called me up out of the blue and asked me to do another book for kids—this one on the Voyager spacecraft. I liked the idea and began collaborating with a different co-author, also an old friend from childhood, on that book for Random House, She and I have since written three books with a fourth one is coming out in fall of ’03. All are for kids around middle-school age:\n\n The Voyager\n\n ,\n\n The Third Planet: Exploring Earth from Space\n\n , and\n\n The Mystery of Mars\n\n . The one that’s due out in 2003 is called\n\n Exploring the Solar System\n\n .

[Assistant] Sounds fun.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Speaking of new ways to inform and educate, you became part of a Space.com era. How did this opportunity come about?