[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We'd occasionally get into a game. I do remember that the, I think it's in the summer that the Spanish, the really good Spanish bullfighters would come to South America. I think their season is in the winter or it's the other way around. I can't remember. It may have been in the winter because their seasons. But we had El Portales, who was the rock star of bullfighters in the early '60s.

[Assistant] Was that your first bullfight?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was that like?

[User] I actually found it really interesting, I mean, it's a phenomenal pageant. I'm sure many people feel it's too bloody and everything else, but it was a phenomenal pageant. I did see one bull spared, which is really unusual. There's a great movie about a bull and a little boy that takes place in Mexico. Anyway. But we saw all of the really good bullfighters from Spain who come through Colombia sort of on their off season and they would stay for a couple of weeks. But bullfights were always packed. You've got to learn why the shade seats were really a lot better than sun seats because it gets pretty hot. We'd always go and, you know, you fill the bag full of wine. We had a good time. Between that and the soccer matches, it was uh.

[Assistant] Were they as rabid at the bullfights with, like the soccer where everybody's screaming all time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was that like?

[User] I actually found it really interesting, I mean, it's a phenomenal pageant. I'm sure many people feel it's too bloody and everything else, but it was a phenomenal pageant. I did see one bull spared, which is really unusual. There's a great movie about a bull and a little boy that takes place in Mexico. Anyway. But we saw all of the really good bullfighters from Spain who come through Colombia sort of on their off season and they would stay for a couple of weeks. But bullfights were always packed. You've got to learn why the shade seats were really a lot better than sun seats because it gets pretty hot. We'd always go and, you know, you fill the bag full of wine. We had a good time. Between that and the soccer matches, it was uh.

[Assistant] Were they as rabid at the bullfights with, like the soccer where everybody's screaming all time?

[User] Not quite as rabid. But they would really get into it if the bullfighter and the bull was aggressive and the bullfighter was really good. I mean, it's really a, you know, sort of ad hoc choreography the way they do those things. It's actually a beautiful way they do the passes. Like a ballet, a very dangerous ballet. I think we saw one guy get gored, although not that badly. The fight is definitely to the advantage of the matador. I mean, there's definitely. But it was, the Colombians really got into it. They'd get into that.

[Assistant] Did you have any particular friends you'd go to these, either Peace Corps or Colombian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nets, they did some nets. Some spearfishing. They had these little watches that they go out and they make them. The guy we went out with at one time and we asked him what he was going out for and he was going out for a fish or shark. We landed a small shark and got it in the boat, it's thrashing around. And we got one of our guys, he's got a machete and he's whacking away at the top of the shark and it's not making any difference at all. And finally, this Colombian guy comes up and he does like a judo chop in the right place. A machete wasn't such a. And then they, blood off on the side, and I think they kind of were, you know, they weren't, they did the real fishing when they when the Peace Corps volunteers weren't around giving them, you know, distracting them from their work.

[Assistant] Now was it a boat the size of a shrimp boat or an American fishing boat or?

[User] Well, it was probably maybe 20, 25 feet long at the most.

[Assistant] I assume motor powered?

[User] They had an outboard motor on the back.

[Assistant] How many of you would be in this boat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was probably maybe 20, 25 feet long at the most.

[Assistant] I assume motor powered?

[User] They had an outboard motor on the back.

[Assistant] How many of you would be in this boat?

[User] We had four of us in the boat when we were going out. It was relatively small, as I remember, it had a little cabin on it.

[Assistant] Was this out in the Pacific?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had an outboard motor on the back.

[Assistant] How many of you would be in this boat?

[User] We had four of us in the boat when we were going out. It was relatively small, as I remember, it had a little cabin on it.

[Assistant] Was this out in the Pacific?

[User] Most of what we were fishing with within the estuaries, in these islands off the point of Buenaventura. We weren't really out in the Pacific and it was relatively calm, excuse me, as I recall. We weren't out there with, you know, four- or six-foot swells going up and down. It was actually the most, I guess, most primitive part of life in Colombia because when we got into the cities of Colombia, it was really quite like going to Spain. I mean, it was really quite, very nice lifestyle. It was very southern, almost like being on the southern coast of Spain or something like that. But when you got out in the jungle and it's probably still true today, it's extremely different, like being in the Amazon River basin.

[Assistant] Well, interesting variety of experiences, both work and leisure. I'm thinking of that sewer system for the island versus a library versus schools. Any other kinds of work projects that you were involved in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had four of us in the boat when we were going out. It was relatively small, as I remember, it had a little cabin on it.

[Assistant] Was this out in the Pacific?

[User] Most of what we were fishing with within the estuaries, in these islands off the point of Buenaventura. We weren't really out in the Pacific and it was relatively calm, excuse me, as I recall. We weren't out there with, you know, four- or six-foot swells going up and down. It was actually the most, I guess, most primitive part of life in Colombia because when we got into the cities of Colombia, it was really quite like going to Spain. I mean, it was really quite, very nice lifestyle. It was very southern, almost like being on the southern coast of Spain or something like that. But when you got out in the jungle and it's probably still true today, it's extremely different, like being in the Amazon River basin.

[Assistant] Well, interesting variety of experiences, both work and leisure. I'm thinking of that sewer system for the island versus a library versus schools. Any other kinds of work projects that you were involved in?

[User] I've been trying to remember when, after you called us. Those are the main ones that I remember. I'm sure I worked on a lot of other things and they brought me in on, you know, we'd go out and we'd look at stuff and make conclusions. A lot of times they kind of brought Peace Corps volunteers along because they could, you know, you were their, well, here's my architect. We served that role because it helped out their prestige. You also learn in Colombia that if you wear sunglasses, they always call you doctor, regardless of whether you have any medical background or academic training. So we always would wear sunglasses because that gets you extra respect. Most Americans, Peace Corps volunteers, they'd call doctor just as a respect thing, regardless of whether they deserved it. It's a gorgeous country, it's a shame that it's torn up today.

[Assistant] Was there a drug issue back then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, that's the, that was sort of a hallmark of a lot of Inca architecture, was their ability to. And I'm not sure how they did it, with water or sand or pools or whatever. The rocks don't appear that they chiseled away at them, but they figured out how to fit them all together. You know, with like maybe a 32nd of an inch between them all the way around. No mortar. It's just phenomenal. And of course, that's who, what was the guy that wrote that book The Chariots of the Gods?

[Assistant] Von Daniken?

[User] Yeah, whatever his name was. Of course, he was convinced they must have had help from outer space, which I thought was what an arrogant attitude. That was obviously one of the big advantages of being a Peace Corps volunteer, you got to get a good amount of vacation. Go see some part of the world you'd never have a chance to see.

[Assistant] I remember you started out saying that part of joining was a sense of adventure. So you had, any other adventures that you went on? Whether it was soccer or bullfights or Machu Picchu.

[User] Um. Just trying to.

[Assistant] Two motorcycles coming at you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, whatever his name was. Of course, he was convinced they must have had help from outer space, which I thought was what an arrogant attitude. That was obviously one of the big advantages of being a Peace Corps volunteer, you got to get a good amount of vacation. Go see some part of the world you'd never have a chance to see.

[Assistant] I remember you started out saying that part of joining was a sense of adventure. So you had, any other adventures that you went on? Whether it was soccer or bullfights or Machu Picchu.

[User] Um. Just trying to.

[Assistant] Two motorcycles coming at you.

[User] Two motorcycles was a, um. I do recall one, we had a going away party for this guy that was the mutual fund salesman. He and his British wife were heading back to someplace, so we had this going away party for him and ended up in a. We had this American kid who was tagging along with us.

[Assistant] He wasn't Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Just trying to.

[Assistant] Two motorcycles coming at you.

[User] Two motorcycles was a, um. I do recall one, we had a going away party for this guy that was the mutual fund salesman. He and his British wife were heading back to someplace, so we had this going away party for him and ended up in a. We had this American kid who was tagging along with us.

[Assistant] He wasn't Peace Corps?

[User] He wasn't Peace Corps, he was the son of a military guy or something. Anyway, he was belligerent, got drunk. The first time I've ever seen somebody try and hit another guy over the head with a beer bottle. It went kaboom and it just bounced right back and this kid was, didn't even faze him. Then he broke a chair and chairs got broken. All of a sudden in this bar we were in, all of the police come in. And the police all have Uzis or some machine guns, and we're all lined up against the wall. And I've just trying not to spill my drink. These are valuable things, I can't afford to let this get away. So we had to go down, we had to pay a fine, pay for the damage to the bar and do all this kind of stuff. And take one guy who got cut a little bit, get his ticket, taken to the hospital and get his stitches and stuff. It's a memorable evening. Everybody got sober in a hurry.

[Assistant] You mentioned stitches. Now did you ever run into any health problems when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I was just 25 years old, I, you know, if I could extend for a whole year until I was 26, which was at that time the upper limit cut off where if you were over 26 and hadn't been drafted yet, you were. They had to draft everybody below 26 before they get to you. So this was before the lottery and all that stuff. So I got back and I had to report to the Selective Service, tell them I wasn't in the Peace Corps anymore. Oh, yeah, we're waiting for you. So that's when I enlisted in the Army, and the Army figured they had a PR bonanza with this Peace Corps volunteer. So they followed me through training with a photographer.

[Assistant] Really? Interesting.

[User] Someplace I have pictures. And they did this in Vietnam too, followed me around Vietnam. Every once in a while, this photographer would show up.

[Assistant] And what was their particular aim with this?

[User] Oh, it was just, you know, I think it was part of the PR. See, the Army guys, you know, come from all walks of life, you know, which one of those. We've got this person who's serving their country twice. You know, the Army, military is pretty good at the promoting the PR side of it. At least they were there.

[Assistant] Now, an item here, they talk about evaluating your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps. The first one is providing technical assistance where requested. Spend a bit of time on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I was, uh. Volunteerism has always been something a part of me and my dad instilled into me when I was young, delivering baskets in the middle of winter in Rochester, New York, to needy families during Thanksgiving, during Christmas. So I always knew that I wanted to volunteer. In college, I led the Catholic Church youth group to do soup kitchen volunteer work. I was an RA in the service line corridor and service was always a part of me. So I guess the big draw for me was, hey, I can do spend two years of my life serving. And that was the big draw.

I went to an intercultural festival in Hamilton, Ohio. I went to Miami University in Ohio and my friend took me to an intercultural festival and there was a Peace Corps table there. And some old returned Peace Corps volunteer was telling me stories about what he did in Africa with snakes. And I was like, that sounds awesome. I picked up a brochure and next thing you know, I'm interviewing for Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you have a specific country or a project in mind?

[User] Uh uh. My degree was in elementary education. And so being a minority, number one, being a male, number two, I have people throwing job offers at me because I wanted to work in the inner city and, uh, so that kind of led to my Peace Corps assignment. I wanted to be in education. That was what my degree was in, and I didn't have any. I don't even know that you could prefer at that time where you would go. And I, I told my Peace Corps recruiter that I was allergic to fish, hated hot weather, and severely prone to motion sickness. And I got invited to the Pacific Islands that had only fish, hot weather, and boat travel. So, yeah.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when, when you received your assignment?

[User] Where is this? Yeah.

[Assistant] All right, so and how were you trained for that assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh uh. My degree was in elementary education. And so being a minority, number one, being a male, number two, I have people throwing job offers at me because I wanted to work in the inner city and, uh, so that kind of led to my Peace Corps assignment. I wanted to be in education. That was what my degree was in, and I didn't have any. I don't even know that you could prefer at that time where you would go. And I, I told my Peace Corps recruiter that I was allergic to fish, hated hot weather, and severely prone to motion sickness. And I got invited to the Pacific Islands that had only fish, hot weather, and boat travel. So, yeah.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when, when you received your assignment?

[User] Where is this? Yeah.

[Assistant] All right, so and how were you trained for that assignment?

[User] Well, the typical, I think, at least back then, it was three months of training with a host family, living, learning how to eat, talk, walk again. The culture, the language. Yeah. Hard core, three months in the islands. So we were trained in country. We weren't trained somewhere else. We were trained in the country. And, um, yeah, we learned on the job basically.

[Assistant] And to what extent to the training accurately prepare you for your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where is this? Yeah.

[Assistant] All right, so and how were you trained for that assignment?

[User] Well, the typical, I think, at least back then, it was three months of training with a host family, living, learning how to eat, talk, walk again. The culture, the language. Yeah. Hard core, three months in the islands. So we were trained in country. We weren't trained somewhere else. We were trained in the country. And, um, yeah, we learned on the job basically.

[Assistant] And to what extent to the training accurately prepare you for your assignment?

[User]
Oh, hmm. It was very structured. The training was very structured. And when I got to site, it was very unstructured. So I think they may have told us, this was 19 years ago. I think they might have told us, you know, be aware that it's going to be a lot less structured than this. But when I got to site, school was not in session. And it was, I think I had a couple of days before school started. And there was, okay, go out and find the store, find the church, find people. And I didn't speak the language. I did, but I didn't. And it was it was a learning curve, a big learning curve.

And then the kids came and it was even a bigger learning curve. I think the kids taught me more about how to speak Kiribati than I, like more intensely than I got in those three months because the kids can't speak English, like you have to do it. So sink or swim.

[Assistant] And so what exactly did your, did your job entail then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were only three villages on the smaller island, and one of those villages was the government village where the schools were. So you can't really count that as a village because it was all the government workers, but they did count as a village. We had the northern and southern, that's where most of the population was. Probably about 700 people at the time.

[Assistant] For the island or for the village?

[User] The island.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And so talk about what your living arrangements were like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The island.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And so talk about what your living arrangements were like.

[User]
I had my own house. I had the mansion of the, the Peace Corps, aside from the director, but I had cinder block tiles. I had a split level, I had a stairway, I had a concrete floor, I had a concrete hole for relieving myself. It was nice. It was a nice, nice house. I think I had the best house in the entire nation for a volunteer. It was on the teacher compound. So we lived with all the elementary school teachers. The JSS [Junior Secondary Schools] just had their own teacher compound, which was literally a few seconds bike ride and I wouldn't even bike it. I would just walk down that road.

And the middle village is where all the teachers lived and then where members of Parliament or this island council had houses there. I had my own pump in my house, so I didn't even have to go to a well, I just pumped the water out of the, they call it a Tamana pump, but it's, I can't even describe it. It was so convenient. But I had the indoor, I call it my indoor plumbing, and it was nice. Yeah.

[Assistant] So what was it like living so close to your coworkers than your host country nationals that were coworkers then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my caveat is that everything I’m going to say is going to be rooted in my personal experience. I’m not offering this as concrete history or anything that I perceive to be utter fact, but my understanding of facts, things I’ve heard, or what I’ve experienced.

[Assistant] All right. Well, did you want to just jump right in then? We’ll start just with the questions but we’re not wedded to these questions, and if we veer off, that’s—

[User] [Interposing] All right.

[Assistant] Or if there’s something more interesting please don’t hesitate to steer us in that direction.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I thought we would start, even before the questions, for you to just give us some general background on you and your education and your experience leading up to your decision to have a career in the Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Sure.

[Assistant] —but we want to go through chronologically through your various careers and then we can come back and hit some highlights.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So, we’ve left you where you were just hired as a student. When did you become full-time?

[User] Okay. So I was a student starting in May of 1991 and I became a CIDS kid, as they called us—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yes. Were you the first class of the CIDS or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So, we’ve left you where you were just hired as a student. When did you become full-time?

[User] Okay. So I was a student starting in May of 1991 and I became a CIDS kid, as they called us—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yes. Were you the first class of the CIDS or not?

[User] Oh, no, CIDS had been around.

[Assistant] Was it around for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. So I was a student starting in May of 1991 and I became a CIDS kid, as they called us—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yes. Were you the first class of the CIDS or not?

[User] Oh, no, CIDS had been around.

[Assistant] Was it around for a while?

[User]
Oh, yeah. Oh, CIDS, yeah, CIDS had been around since at least the ‘70s.

Some—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Why did they stop CIDS? Do you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, CIDS had been around.

[Assistant] Was it around for a while?

[User]
Oh, yeah. Oh, CIDS, yeah, CIDS had been around since at least the ‘70s.

Some—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Why did they stop CIDS? Do you know?

[User] I think that there were, well, there’s my opinion and then there’s, I mean, I can’t really tell you exactly why. I don’t think that the reasons for why CIDS was stopped was ever very clearly explained, ever. I think that, you know, I think it might’ve had to do with money. There was maybe a question about whether or not the program really developed people the way that the managers, or the leadership, wanted that to happen. And it may have been that someone realized that it had been a long time, if ever, that the program was properly evaluated. I have no idea if anybody knew exactly how to evaluate the program. But I do know that I think around the time that it slowed or then stopped was when we started hitting our budget crunches, and we started having hiring freezes. And so I think that that was just kind of a mechanical response to a budget problem, but then it became more of an organizational development question that I think few people really understood how to approach. That’s my opinion.

[Assistant] But you felt that it was a valid program, and it was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sorry your time was cut short. I thought we would be able to have more.

[Assistant] We’re used to forest fires, too. We’re very flexible, and we try to take the best that we can. We will be looking forward to sending this to you, and then maybe when you have a chance to look at it, we’ll see if there’s some more things that we need to visit about it. And now that you’re coming to Houston on occasion, if we need to fill in some other spots, we can do that. We’ll talk to you then.

[User] Sure. And you know, we could do telecom if you ever wanted to. I don’t know how effective that is. We could try that sometime, too.

[Assistant] We’ll see how this works out and then we’ll go from there. So, thank you again.

[User] The Flight Programs [has] a really dedicated group of people, and in our research group [we have talented and good], a very good group of people. In the publications that we’ve been getting out in our research group, we’ve been averaging about four publications per person per year. That means some are doing more than others, but still that’s a pretty good average. So, we’re glad to do that.

[Assistant] Well, congratulations. That’s great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. And you know, we could do telecom if you ever wanted to. I don’t know how effective that is. We could try that sometime, too.

[Assistant] We’ll see how this works out and then we’ll go from there. So, thank you again.

[User] The Flight Programs [has] a really dedicated group of people, and in our research group [we have talented and good], a very good group of people. In the publications that we’ve been getting out in our research group, we’ve been averaging about four publications per person per year. That means some are doing more than others, but still that’s a pretty good average. So, we’re glad to do that.

[Assistant] Well, congratulations. That’s great.

[User] And it’s in peer review journals, and that’s pretty darn good.

[Assistant] And that means, of course, that’s your enthusiasm across the division is still there, so that’s terrific.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Flight Programs [has] a really dedicated group of people, and in our research group [we have talented and good], a very good group of people. In the publications that we’ve been getting out in our research group, we’ve been averaging about four publications per person per year. That means some are doing more than others, but still that’s a pretty good average. So, we’re glad to do that.

[Assistant] Well, congratulations. That’s great.

[User] And it’s in peer review journals, and that’s pretty darn good.

[Assistant] And that means, of course, that’s your enthusiasm across the division is still there, so that’s terrific.

[User] … We also had a really nice report from the peer review. One person had been on the previous panel in ’95, and we did that purposely so that we’d have that continuity, and they said [that our group was] much improved over ’95.

[Assistant] Well, now you continue on this path. And good luck with that area as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think if you can remember back into the particularly early ‘60s and in the Kennedy administration, there was just a lot of hope in the world that that young people or this nation could make some really meaningful changes and in the world and with other nations and with other peoples. And you know, that call was very strong for me and that I can do something and make some contribution to another other people was just so appealing to me. And plus, I really wanted to travel. I never traveled very much. Never been out of the country except for Canada. And I thought that would be a very, you know, very interesting experience.

[Assistant] What was life like before you joined the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I just finished undergraduate school and social work, and that was really that was very fulfilling. I was very active in student affairs and very active in my fraternity and had a really nice group of friends. And so it was a very fulfilling experience and that was kind of adding to my desire to make a contribution to other people.

[Assistant] Where did you study and what did you study?

[User] Ohio State University. I had major in social work with a minor in criminology.

[Assistant] Were there any other life experiences that you could recall that may have also influenced you to think about serving in an organization like the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I just finished undergraduate school and social work, and that was really that was very fulfilling. I was very active in student affairs and very active in my fraternity and had a really nice group of friends. And so it was a very fulfilling experience and that was kind of adding to my desire to make a contribution to other people.

[Assistant] Where did you study and what did you study?

[User] Ohio State University. I had major in social work with a minor in criminology.

[Assistant] Were there any other life experiences that you could recall that may have also influenced you to think about serving in an organization like the Peace Corps?

[User] No, I just think my observations of the hope that was in the in the ‘60s, that this generation can make a contribution. And I was very strong on that and I'd been active in the civil rights movement and saw some changes in that too.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ohio State University. I had major in social work with a minor in criminology.

[Assistant] Were there any other life experiences that you could recall that may have also influenced you to think about serving in an organization like the Peace Corps?

[User] No, I just think my observations of the hope that was in the in the ‘60s, that this generation can make a contribution. And I was very strong on that and I'd been active in the civil rights movement and saw some changes in that too.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was on campus. Recruiters. There was in the news and the recruiters were around and I think, at the student union. I went over and signed up.

[Assistant] Was there a specific country you were interested in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I just think my observations of the hope that was in the in the ‘60s, that this generation can make a contribution. And I was very strong on that and I'd been active in the civil rights movement and saw some changes in that too.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was on campus. Recruiters. There was in the news and the recruiters were around and I think, at the student union. I went over and signed up.

[Assistant] Was there a specific country you were interested in?

[User] Well, I was very interested in learning how to speak Spanish. So that was an interesting so I was my first desire was going to South America.

[Assistant] What was the timing like for the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was on campus. Recruiters. There was in the news and the recruiters were around and I think, at the student union. I went over and signed up.

[Assistant] Was there a specific country you were interested in?

[User] Well, I was very interested in learning how to speak Spanish. So that was an interesting so I was my first desire was going to South America.

[Assistant] What was the timing like for the application process?

[User] It was perfect because I had finished just finishing undergraduate school. I accepted an internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons and there was a, where I was. I lived in Columbus, Ohio, at that time and there was a federal reformatory in Chillicothe, Ohio, actually the town that I grew up in. And so there was an internship that particular summer, and this project was not supposed to begin until August or late August, I believe. And so the timing was perfect because by the time I was informed early on, the project was going to be in Brazil again. Kind of a little joke because I wanted to learn Spanish, but that was a Portuguese speaking country. But it sounded interesting and it was the first offer and I took it. And I think I knew about the that right around the time I graduated in June and then with my internship and had a couple of days at home and off I went.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was very interested in learning how to speak Spanish. So that was an interesting so I was my first desire was going to South America.

[Assistant] What was the timing like for the application process?

[User] It was perfect because I had finished just finishing undergraduate school. I accepted an internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons and there was a, where I was. I lived in Columbus, Ohio, at that time and there was a federal reformatory in Chillicothe, Ohio, actually the town that I grew up in. And so there was an internship that particular summer, and this project was not supposed to begin until August or late August, I believe. And so the timing was perfect because by the time I was informed early on, the project was going to be in Brazil again. Kind of a little joke because I wanted to learn Spanish, but that was a Portuguese speaking country. But it sounded interesting and it was the first offer and I took it. And I think I knew about the that right around the time I graduated in June and then with my internship and had a couple of days at home and off I went.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was very honored to be accepted because I know it was that time was pretty competitive and even more competitive now I understand, but competitive and I feel, you know, you know, quite honored. In fact, some of the some of the literature at that time about people who had to face adverse situations in their life, but people that were picked for the Peace Corps were, you know, right at the top of the list. So I felt, whoa, hey, I'm part of that group.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family? How did they react?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was perfect because I had finished just finishing undergraduate school. I accepted an internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons and there was a, where I was. I lived in Columbus, Ohio, at that time and there was a federal reformatory in Chillicothe, Ohio, actually the town that I grew up in. And so there was an internship that particular summer, and this project was not supposed to begin until August or late August, I believe. And so the timing was perfect because by the time I was informed early on, the project was going to be in Brazil again. Kind of a little joke because I wanted to learn Spanish, but that was a Portuguese speaking country. But it sounded interesting and it was the first offer and I took it. And I think I knew about the that right around the time I graduated in June and then with my internship and had a couple of days at home and off I went.

[Assistant] What was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User] I was very honored to be accepted because I know it was that time was pretty competitive and even more competitive now I understand, but competitive and I feel, you know, you know, quite honored. In fact, some of the some of the literature at that time about people who had to face adverse situations in their life, but people that were picked for the Peace Corps were, you know, right at the top of the list. So I felt, whoa, hey, I'm part of that group.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family? How did they react?

[User] The family was not, not too keen on it. I'm an only child, so my parents were not too keen on me going, but they didn't put any impediments in my in my way.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends that applied or no?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very honored to be accepted because I know it was that time was pretty competitive and even more competitive now I understand, but competitive and I feel, you know, you know, quite honored. In fact, some of the some of the literature at that time about people who had to face adverse situations in their life, but people that were picked for the Peace Corps were, you know, right at the top of the list. So I felt, whoa, hey, I'm part of that group.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family? How did they react?

[User] The family was not, not too keen on it. I'm an only child, so my parents were not too keen on me going, but they didn't put any impediments in my in my way.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends that applied or no?

[User] No, that was it. Actually, the fellow that I that I did the internship with at Chillicothe, Ohio, in the reformatory. He was also accepted for a project in Brazil and was going to, I think his training group was starting the same time as mine, but in a different location.

[Assistant] Did you know before you left that it was going to be involved with prisons or did you find that out once you arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The family was not, not too keen on it. I'm an only child, so my parents were not too keen on me going, but they didn't put any impediments in my in my way.

[Assistant] Did you have other friends that applied or no?

[User] No, that was it. Actually, the fellow that I that I did the internship with at Chillicothe, Ohio, in the reformatory. He was also accepted for a project in Brazil and was going to, I think his training group was starting the same time as mine, but in a different location.

[Assistant] Did you know before you left that it was going to be involved with prisons or did you find that out once you arrived?

[User] What's involved with what?

[Assistant] Your work was going to be involved with prisons?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was it. Actually, the fellow that I that I did the internship with at Chillicothe, Ohio, in the reformatory. He was also accepted for a project in Brazil and was going to, I think his training group was starting the same time as mine, but in a different location.

[Assistant] Did you know before you left that it was going to be involved with prisons or did you find that out once you arrived?

[User] What's involved with what?

[Assistant] Your work was going to be involved with prisons?

[User] No, I trained in New York, in the jungles of New York City at NYU and it was a health project. So I was with a lot of nurses and as a male non-nurse, I was being, you know, as a sanatorium and we were scheduled to go to the northeast Brazil. And so I learned about latrines and, you know, health care and lots of diseases and first aid and, you know, those kinds of things. And so that was that was the mission.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate a little more about the training, how did how did you receive it? Did you think you were being properly prepared?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What's involved with what?

[Assistant] Your work was going to be involved with prisons?

[User] No, I trained in New York, in the jungles of New York City at NYU and it was a health project. So I was with a lot of nurses and as a male non-nurse, I was being, you know, as a sanatorium and we were scheduled to go to the northeast Brazil. And so I learned about latrines and, you know, health care and lots of diseases and first aid and, you know, those kinds of things. And so that was that was the mission.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate a little more about the training, how did how did you receive it? Did you think you were being properly prepared?

[User] Well, I think so. You know, in terms of I had nothing really to, you know, to compare it to at that particular time. But you know, it was new information for me about, you know, tropical diseases. And I was really keen on helping people with latrines and maybe building some houses out of, you know, out of adobe and, you know, probably much more enthusiastic than knowledgeable. But I was ready to go. And I thought the instructors that we had, both the language instructors as well as the more technical instructors were, were very good, were really excellent I think.

[Assistant] In retrospect, do you feel there were any particular weaknesses?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I trained in New York, in the jungles of New York City at NYU and it was a health project. So I was with a lot of nurses and as a male non-nurse, I was being, you know, as a sanatorium and we were scheduled to go to the northeast Brazil. And so I learned about latrines and, you know, health care and lots of diseases and first aid and, you know, those kinds of things. And so that was that was the mission.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate a little more about the training, how did how did you receive it? Did you think you were being properly prepared?

[User] Well, I think so. You know, in terms of I had nothing really to, you know, to compare it to at that particular time. But you know, it was new information for me about, you know, tropical diseases. And I was really keen on helping people with latrines and maybe building some houses out of, you know, out of adobe and, you know, probably much more enthusiastic than knowledgeable. But I was ready to go. And I thought the instructors that we had, both the language instructors as well as the more technical instructors were, were very good, were really excellent I think.

[Assistant] In retrospect, do you feel there were any particular weaknesses?

[User] I can't. I can't recall any. No, no. Now, you have to understand it didn't train me for what I eventually ended up doing, but the intentions were all there.

[Assistant] Sounds like a story I've heard before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think so. You know, in terms of I had nothing really to, you know, to compare it to at that particular time. But you know, it was new information for me about, you know, tropical diseases. And I was really keen on helping people with latrines and maybe building some houses out of, you know, out of adobe and, you know, probably much more enthusiastic than knowledgeable. But I was ready to go. And I thought the instructors that we had, both the language instructors as well as the more technical instructors were, were very good, were really excellent I think.

[Assistant] In retrospect, do you feel there were any particular weaknesses?

[User] I can't. I can't recall any. No, no. Now, you have to understand it didn't train me for what I eventually ended up doing, but the intentions were all there.

[Assistant] Sounds like a story I've heard before.

[User] Yes, right?

[Assistant] So your style of training was at the university, so you didn't have much interaction with actual Brazilians.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't. I can't recall any. No, no. Now, you have to understand it didn't train me for what I eventually ended up doing, but the intentions were all there.

[Assistant] Sounds like a story I've heard before.

[User] Yes, right?

[Assistant] So your style of training was at the university, so you didn't have much interaction with actual Brazilians.

[User] You know, instructors were mostly Brazilians, the language instructors. And we got tickets to see George Proyecto, so that's great.

[Assistant] Were any volunteers asked to leave during the training process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right?

[Assistant] So your style of training was at the university, so you didn't have much interaction with actual Brazilians.

[User] You know, instructors were mostly Brazilians, the language instructors. And we got tickets to see George Proyecto, so that's great.

[Assistant] Were any volunteers asked to leave during the training process?

[User] Yeah, I think we lost close to 50 percent. Yeah.

[Assistant] How many did you start with, do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, instructors were mostly Brazilians, the language instructors. And we got tickets to see George Proyecto, so that's great.

[Assistant] Were any volunteers asked to leave during the training process?

[User] Yeah, I think we lost close to 50 percent. Yeah.

[Assistant] How many did you start with, do you remember?

[User] No, I don't recall. But you know, most were lost at half time, halfway through. I know a couple of the women were there and they decided to go back with their boyfriends, you know, want to get married. So because I mean, the rumor was, those kinds of relationships didn't last over a two year period if you were separated.

[Assistant] The next question would be, what was your initial entry into the country like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we lost close to 50 percent. Yeah.

[Assistant] How many did you start with, do you remember?

[User] No, I don't recall. But you know, most were lost at half time, halfway through. I know a couple of the women were there and they decided to go back with their boyfriends, you know, want to get married. So because I mean, the rumor was, those kinds of relationships didn't last over a two year period if you were separated.

[Assistant] The next question would be, what was your initial entry into the country like?

[User] We had some nice training in Rio de Janeiro. And that was really great to be in Rio. And we had some orientation, which I’m bit fuzzy on. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was basically a scheduled for about a week, I think, to just get us used to the country, get a feel for the country and kind of relax a little bit and feel welcome. And so that was really nice. Now the whole thing got changed, as I said before I was, but I was supposed to, scheduled to go to northeast Brazil. And while I was there, a fellow came by the name of Phil Lopez, who was directing the project in Brasilia, and had seen my bio and wondered if I wanted to go to this project in Brasilia, which was the first group in Brasilia. So I said, sure, sounds great.

[Assistant] I take it this was a staff person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't recall. But you know, most were lost at half time, halfway through. I know a couple of the women were there and they decided to go back with their boyfriends, you know, want to get married. So because I mean, the rumor was, those kinds of relationships didn't last over a two year period if you were separated.

[Assistant] The next question would be, what was your initial entry into the country like?

[User] We had some nice training in Rio de Janeiro. And that was really great to be in Rio. And we had some orientation, which I’m bit fuzzy on. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was basically a scheduled for about a week, I think, to just get us used to the country, get a feel for the country and kind of relax a little bit and feel welcome. And so that was really nice. Now the whole thing got changed, as I said before I was, but I was supposed to, scheduled to go to northeast Brazil. And while I was there, a fellow came by the name of Phil Lopez, who was directing the project in Brasilia, and had seen my bio and wondered if I wanted to go to this project in Brasilia, which was the first group in Brasilia. So I said, sure, sounds great.

[Assistant] I take it this was a staff person.

[User] Yeah, Phil was the director. Yes, it was a staff person. Yeah. He's recruiting and recruited from a couple of different groups.

[Assistant] So I guess he was the one that actually facilitated your moving into this position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had some nice training in Rio de Janeiro. And that was really great to be in Rio. And we had some orientation, which I’m bit fuzzy on. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was basically a scheduled for about a week, I think, to just get us used to the country, get a feel for the country and kind of relax a little bit and feel welcome. And so that was really nice. Now the whole thing got changed, as I said before I was, but I was supposed to, scheduled to go to northeast Brazil. And while I was there, a fellow came by the name of Phil Lopez, who was directing the project in Brasilia, and had seen my bio and wondered if I wanted to go to this project in Brasilia, which was the first group in Brasilia. So I said, sure, sounds great.

[Assistant] I take it this was a staff person.

[User] Yeah, Phil was the director. Yes, it was a staff person. Yeah. He's recruiting and recruited from a couple of different groups.

[Assistant] So I guess he was the one that actually facilitated your moving into this position.

[User] Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Going to Brasilia.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate now on what the specifics of your assignment were like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d say there were about 10 cells, anywhere from 100 to 120 probably max males. And there were there were about four or five females there also that were in a different, different barracks, but then not far away. But they pretty much kept to themselves.

[Assistant] So it was a seven day a week job. But did you have any leisure time?

[User] Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I made sure I got together with some of my colleagues and I saw my friend got my friend in Planaltina and see him, or we could come in and we go to a movie. And I think, yeah, at one time I took a little road trip with him to see his family. His family lived down on a farm, in another, in another state. Spent a weekend out there with him and his family, which was really quite nice.

[Assistant] You said you were able to get some support from another volunteer. Was this typical of the group where you could reach out to other expertise?

[User] Uh yeah, I don't think I did. I mean, with the librarians, which was pretty, you know, pretty, pretty obvious. I don't think I needed to. I think the only other thing I needed from the other volunteers was just, sometimes you just kind of blow off steam, you know, let your hair down, you know? And just be with colleagues.

[Assistant] How frequent was that? Was opportunities did you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I made sure I got together with some of my colleagues and I saw my friend got my friend in Planaltina and see him, or we could come in and we go to a movie. And I think, yeah, at one time I took a little road trip with him to see his family. His family lived down on a farm, in another, in another state. Spent a weekend out there with him and his family, which was really quite nice.

[Assistant] You said you were able to get some support from another volunteer. Was this typical of the group where you could reach out to other expertise?

[User] Uh yeah, I don't think I did. I mean, with the librarians, which was pretty, you know, pretty, pretty obvious. I don't think I needed to. I think the only other thing I needed from the other volunteers was just, sometimes you just kind of blow off steam, you know, let your hair down, you know? And just be with colleagues.

[Assistant] How frequent was that? Was opportunities did you have?

[User] Oh, it kind of depended on what's going on. I know our director would pull us in every maybe six months for like a weekend or something, and we could take great showers and fax. So, I mean, maybe every other week or something like that.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate a little more on your living arrangements?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh yeah, I don't think I did. I mean, with the librarians, which was pretty, you know, pretty, pretty obvious. I don't think I needed to. I think the only other thing I needed from the other volunteers was just, sometimes you just kind of blow off steam, you know, let your hair down, you know? And just be with colleagues.

[Assistant] How frequent was that? Was opportunities did you have?

[User] Oh, it kind of depended on what's going on. I know our director would pull us in every maybe six months for like a weekend or something, and we could take great showers and fax. So, I mean, maybe every other week or something like that.

[Assistant] Can you elaborate a little more on your living arrangements?

[User] Living arrangements I think were pretty decent. I lived at the boys’ school and had running water and they had two cooks for the children. Limited menu, of course, rice and beans or beans and rice, which I still love actually. And these two cooks were just male and female. They were very dark there. Yeah, black. And when I left in Thanksgiving, for what they've done for me or, you know, I gave them some gifts and I had the ultimate compliment from them and I still remember this. They said, Norman, you may be white, but your heart is black. And I thought that I said that I almost came to tears on that one. I thought that was just a wonderful comment. Yeah, but I had to get there before. My hours were so weird at the prison. Sometimes the kids would get the meal before I would. But they’re being kids, so I survived.

[Assistant] How did, was this something that the service paid for, or was this part of your, coming out of your allowance? Payment for the food, payment for the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

[Assistant] What about with Peace Corps activities back here in the States?

[User] No, I'm not a groupie. You know, I went to some NORVA Northeast Ohio folks, and when I went, everybody was telling war stories and I didn’t want to hear that. And I guess it would have been OK when I'm just, if I was just out, I'd been out. Because I went because when I got out of Brazil, I went right into graduate school for two years and then I went to a reservation for two and a half years and then I came back to. When I came back, I got recruited to Cleveland to help start the Department of Psychiatry. I really didn't, you know, the only people I've kept contact with some Peace Corps volunteers that I was with in Brasilia and maintained those contacts.

[Assistant] I don't know if this is particularly a repeat of a previous question, but the last question in the guide is, what has been the effect of Peace Corps service on your life?

[User] Oh, I think it's something I could be very proud of, number one. And it's a legacy I think I passed on to my daughter, who's a 1Z energy consultant. Because she did that stint in the Dominican Republic and Mexico. And I think she's going to be helping people for many, many years in terms of energy. Well, it's something to be proud of, and, you know. It was a life, life growing experience.

[Assistant] Any final comments you'd like to make?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it's something I could be very proud of, number one. And it's a legacy I think I passed on to my daughter, who's a 1Z energy consultant. Because she did that stint in the Dominican Republic and Mexico. And I think she's going to be helping people for many, many years in terms of energy. Well, it's something to be proud of, and, you know. It was a life, life growing experience.

[Assistant] Any final comments you'd like to make?

[User] No, I'm just so happy that somebody is interested in the story, that's all. And if it's helps other people or, you know, provides entertainment or whatever, and that's great.

[Assistant] Very good.

[User] If it makes the cutting room floor, I don't know. If it even makes the cutting room floor.

[Assistant] Well, I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm just so happy that somebody is interested in the story, that's all. And if it's helps other people or, you know, provides entertainment or whatever, and that's great.

[Assistant] Very good.

[User] If it makes the cutting room floor, I don't know. If it even makes the cutting room floor.

[Assistant] Well, I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me.

[User] Well, thank you as well.

[Assistant] I found it very interesting. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wow, that's a good question. I was a, I believe, a junior at Catholic University here in Washington, DC and studying Political Science. My mother at the time was working in the library at the University of Maryland at College Park. She saw a posting for a position here at the National Archives. She called me up and said, are you interested in this, and I was, so I followed up on that. Some months later, I was working at the National Archives. That position was in the Office of Presidential Libraries. And so I was there for a while before I moved on.

[Assistant] So did you finish your degree at Catholic University while you were working here?

[User] I did. I did.

[Assistant] And just stayed here for the rest of your life.

[User] Well, no, I did have a little interval. I was, like I said, I think I started in '79 and graduated from Catholic University late in 1980. And then, I went to Boston and was in Boston for a year, I'd say a year and a half. And then, I came back to the Archives and back to the Office of Presidential Libraries. Then, sometime in 1983, I was working in Presidential Libraries when my supervisor, Doug Thurman, the late Doug Thurman, very good man, good friend, had talked to Dr. Jim O'Neill, who was the assistant archivist for Presidential Libraries at the time, and was Chairman of the National Archives Committee for the 50th Anniversary of the National Archives. There was a big exhibition planned, and they needed a registrar, or someone to collect the and care for the items to be in that exhibition. Doug mentioned me as a possibility, and I got drafted into working on that exhibit. Kind of opened my eyes to the world of exhibitions and the opportunity to work with a lot of people throughout the agency. And so I was essentially on loan for that year, and then transferred over to exhibitions, permanently, sometime in 1985.

[Assistant] And you've been a registrar since then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I did.

[Assistant] And just stayed here for the rest of your life.

[User] Well, no, I did have a little interval. I was, like I said, I think I started in '79 and graduated from Catholic University late in 1980. And then, I went to Boston and was in Boston for a year, I'd say a year and a half. And then, I came back to the Archives and back to the Office of Presidential Libraries. Then, sometime in 1983, I was working in Presidential Libraries when my supervisor, Doug Thurman, the late Doug Thurman, very good man, good friend, had talked to Dr. Jim O'Neill, who was the assistant archivist for Presidential Libraries at the time, and was Chairman of the National Archives Committee for the 50th Anniversary of the National Archives. There was a big exhibition planned, and they needed a registrar, or someone to collect the and care for the items to be in that exhibition. Doug mentioned me as a possibility, and I got drafted into working on that exhibit. Kind of opened my eyes to the world of exhibitions and the opportunity to work with a lot of people throughout the agency. And so I was essentially on loan for that year, and then transferred over to exhibitions, permanently, sometime in 1985.

[Assistant] And you've been a registrar since then?

[User] I've been registrar ever since. I started out probably when I transferred, I was probably a GS-5 or 6, but I remained a registrar all that time, but the position has kind of grown in scope and responsibility since then.

[Assistant] What aspects of the work do you enjoy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I eluded to just there—it's—of course, there is a direct access to the archive's records and artifacts and artwork, and being able to just be up close to them. With an interest in history and knowing all the stories that are associated with them, that could be very special. But it's also the opportunity to work with other individuals here at the National Archives, in the Presidential Libraries, in the Field Offices. As registrar, the other major responsibility I have is for loans from the National Archives to other museums, and so I'm able to work with other institutions and staff, individuals in other museums. So it's both that access, that up-close access, and the opportunity with a great variety of people.

[Assistant] What's a typical day in your unit?

[User] For myself, or for the unit?

[Assistant] For you.

[User] There isn't one. That's another thing that I think makes my job challenging and interesting is yes, there is a fair amount of routine activity having to do with processing archival and museum materials for exhibition or for loan for exhibition, but it's also the things that come out of the blue; questions, the contact for another loan, a new loan to go. Maybe sometimes it's Japan, maybe it's Presidential Library. But it's usually something—there's always something new. And that's why I get up in the morning and come here.

[Assistant] What interesting discoveries have you made through your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, I would say the most important thing is having an understanding of the American Political system, the form of the United States Government, and how all that works, and how that is translated in the records themselves.

[Assistant] What were your impressions of the agency when you started working here?

[User] I'll go back a little bit further.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] My father was a Professor of European History, taught at Catholic University. He actually went to Catholic University himself, back in the 1930s. And then, was invited by Catholic University to come teach in 1959. I was born in '58, and he was then teaching at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. In 1959, he accepted the position at Catholic University and the whole family moved down here. But growing up, first in D.C., and then in the Maryland suburbs, my parents would bring us downtown to see the monuments and the museums. And I don't have a precise memory of the first time I came to the archives, what I have a memory of is driving down Constitution Avenue, probably in the backseat of my parents' car, and looking up at those awesome neo-classical buildings on Constitution Avenue, of course, including the National Archives. I thought to myself then, and I was just a youngster, that it would be really cool to work there someday. So—and I'm sorry, refresh me again what the original question was?

[Assistant] What was your impression of the agency when you began your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll go back a little bit further.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] My father was a Professor of European History, taught at Catholic University. He actually went to Catholic University himself, back in the 1930s. And then, was invited by Catholic University to come teach in 1959. I was born in '58, and he was then teaching at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. In 1959, he accepted the position at Catholic University and the whole family moved down here. But growing up, first in D.C., and then in the Maryland suburbs, my parents would bring us downtown to see the monuments and the museums. And I don't have a precise memory of the first time I came to the archives, what I have a memory of is driving down Constitution Avenue, probably in the backseat of my parents' car, and looking up at those awesome neo-classical buildings on Constitution Avenue, of course, including the National Archives. I thought to myself then, and I was just a youngster, that it would be really cool to work there someday. So—and I'm sorry, refresh me again what the original question was?

[Assistant] What was your impression of the agency when you began your career?

[User] When I started? Okay. Well, okay. So as a young child, I thought it was a pretty cool place to begin with. And so when I got the phone call from my mother, I was eager to apply. I knew, obviously, that the Declaration and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were there, but I didn't have a very deep understanding of what else was there at the National Archives, or what people did at the National Archives. And that's, really, something I've come to, you know, just learn over the years. But I knew that it was impressive looking, basically, and that it would be a good place to work.

[Assistant] What would you say was the most significant turning point in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'm sorry, go back. Is it change of Presidents, change of administration?

[Assistant] Uh-huh.

[User] No, that wasn't an issue.

[Assistant] How would describe the intellectual and institutional value of the records with which you work? You don't have to answer that if you can't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry, go back. Is it change of Presidents, change of administration?

[Assistant] Uh-huh.

[User] No, that wasn't an issue.

[Assistant] How would describe the intellectual and institutional value of the records with which you work? You don't have to answer that if you can't.

[User] Well, that's a hard question. I mean, that's one of the wonderful things that we in exhibitions are able to do, is we're able to explore the great breadth of the National Archives. But at the same time, we're not—the individuals in the exhibitions office are not experts on any particular area, generally speaking. We're often dependent on the expertise of individual archivists, who work with a limited amount of records, that are limited, but they can still be very voluminous. Like modern military records, we're talking about tens of thousands of boxes and maybe more than that, so we're dependent on those archivists who've worked with those records over a long period of time, and developed an expertise, and we're very, very dependent on them. But, I mean, personally, I'm very interested in the American Revolution and the early Republic, and have, as I mentioned earlier, the early State Department Records piqued my interest even more, and so personally, that's the body of records that I'm most interested in. I would say they are the core of our government and American Democracy. The Journals of the Continental Congress, the Voting Record of the Constitutional Convention. You know, we debate a lot about what the founders intended, well, we can always go back to the record and see what they actually had to say. Sometimes they're contradictory, so history is sometimes messy. But what we have are the records, so we always have to go back to that.

[Assistant] Do you feel you've made a significant contribution to the National Archives? And if so, what do you think that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All my time?

[Assistant] Mm-hm.

[User] I mean, over the last...

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I feel like I'm a very lucky person, and I've had one of the best jobs in Washington for all that time. That amazes me every day.

[Assistant] Is there anything you would like to add to the interview? Anecdotes, stories, words of wisdom, et cetera?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, over the last...

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I feel like I'm a very lucky person, and I've had one of the best jobs in Washington for all that time. That amazes me every day.

[Assistant] Is there anything you would like to add to the interview? Anecdotes, stories, words of wisdom, et cetera?

[User] I would say anyone who's—I'll go back to before coming to the archives and being a high school student, and trying to decide what I was going to do. You know, my dad taught European History and I was interested in history, and my mother was a librarian, so, you know, coming here would've seemed very natural. But I remember that my mother did not think pursuing a career in history would be very valuable. Or maybe that's not the right word, but so when I applied to Catholic University, I didn't apply for the History program, and I didn't apply for a Political Science program. I applied for Computer Science. But I had realized within that first year that that's not really what I wanted to be doing. I had relatively good math skills, but I wasn't passionate about it and I was much more interested in Politics than History. And so I put myself on that track, and then I was just lucky enough to get that phone call, my mother seeing that posting. So what I would say is, when someone tells you that your English Degree is not going to help you, or that you really need to go one way or another way, take that with a grain of salt and give yourself the opportunity to take another path.

[Assistant] Is there anything else?