[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mark Waldman would be a good one if he wasn’t on your list.

[Assistant] I don’t think his name is on the list, no.

[User] I was more involved with the test side. I certainly put the [very] early conceptual [order of events] together for integrating the telescope into the chamber and de-integrating the telescope coming out of the chamber. But there [was a large team that organized and detailed that operation. There are] people much closer to that day-to-day effort, which was also a very—I won’t say heroic effort, but it was a lot of hard work as well.\n\n One person you could talk to is Tom [Thomas R.] Scorse, who’s also here at Harris. Ed [Edward L.] Shade may be another person, who’s at Goddard. I don’t know if Carl [A.] Reis was on your list, I’m sure he has stories.

[Assistant] His name doesn’t sound familiar. Tom Scorse, we have invited him.

[User] Carl Reis was the lead test director for the test. He works for Goddard now, but he used to work for Johnson.

[Assistant] All right, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate you letting us run over a little bit this morning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was more involved with the test side. I certainly put the [very] early conceptual [order of events] together for integrating the telescope into the chamber and de-integrating the telescope coming out of the chamber. But there [was a large team that organized and detailed that operation. There are] people much closer to that day-to-day effort, which was also a very—I won’t say heroic effort, but it was a lot of hard work as well.\n\n One person you could talk to is Tom [Thomas R.] Scorse, who’s also here at Harris. Ed [Edward L.] Shade may be another person, who’s at Goddard. I don’t know if Carl [A.] Reis was on your list, I’m sure he has stories.

[Assistant] His name doesn’t sound familiar. Tom Scorse, we have invited him.

[User] Carl Reis was the lead test director for the test. He works for Goddard now, but he used to work for Johnson.

[Assistant] All right, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate you letting us run over a little bit this morning.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] Have a great weekend and thank you again. Enjoy your next telescope project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bill Seibert, may I help you?

[Assistant] Hi, this is Rebecca Watford.

[User] Oh, hi. How are you?

[Assistant] Good, you?

[User] I'm okay. I'm going to close my office door and put you on speaker phone, is that all right?

[Assistant] Yes, sir, and I'm recording the phone call as you do it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm okay. I'm going to close my office door and put you on speaker phone, is that all right?

[Assistant] Yes, sir, and I'm recording the phone call as you do it.

[User] Okay, thank you. Hold on. Hi, can you hear me?

[Assistant] Yes, sir.

[User] I can hear you, let me close the door. Hello everybody [to people outside. Closes door and returns]. Okay.

[Assistant] All right. Let me do the metadata really quick, and then we can start.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, thank you. Hold on. Hi, can you hear me?

[Assistant] Yes, sir.

[User] I can hear you, let me close the door. Hello everybody [to people outside. Closes door and returns]. Okay.

[Assistant] All right. Let me do the metadata really quick, and then we can start.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Today is Friday, September 22nd, 2017. On the phone is William SAY-bert—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can hear you, let me close the door. Hello everybody [to people outside. Closes door and returns]. Okay.

[Assistant] All right. Let me do the metadata really quick, and then we can start.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Today is Friday, September 22nd, 2017. On the phone is William SAY-bert—

[User] [Interposing] SIGH-bert.

[Assistant] —oh, Seibert, what was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Today is Friday, September 22nd, 2017. On the phone is William SAY-bert—

[User] [Interposing] SIGH-bert.

[Assistant] —oh, Seibert, what was it?

[User] Seibert, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Who is a Senior Archivist and Chief of Archival Operations at the National Archives at St. Louis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] SIGH-bert.

[Assistant] —oh, Seibert, what was it?

[User] Seibert, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Who is a Senior Archivist and Chief of Archival Operations at the National Archives at St. Louis.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] My name is Rebecca Watford. I am an Intern in the History Office at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. So, Mr. Seibert, what is your background prior to working at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Seibert, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Who is a Senior Archivist and Chief of Archival Operations at the National Archives at St. Louis.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] My name is Rebecca Watford. I am an Intern in the History Office at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. So, Mr. Seibert, what is your background prior to working at the National Archives?

[User] I came to work at the Archives a few years after I finished my academic work. I returned to St. Louis in 1975 and for a brief time was involved in a number of projects having to do with architectural history here in the St. Louis area. Also spent a year or so in a family business, but then in 1978 I took what was then known as the PACE Exam, which was an examination for the civil service. And at some point after that, I think it was in '77 or '78 that I took that exam, and then in '78 I was contacted by the National Archives and Records Service, as it then was, here in St. Louis and offered a job at the National Personnel Records Center. So since 1978 I have been employed by the National Archives.

[Assistant] All right. So what do you do at the National Archives? What is your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] My name is Rebecca Watford. I am an Intern in the History Office at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. So, Mr. Seibert, what is your background prior to working at the National Archives?

[User] I came to work at the Archives a few years after I finished my academic work. I returned to St. Louis in 1975 and for a brief time was involved in a number of projects having to do with architectural history here in the St. Louis area. Also spent a year or so in a family business, but then in 1978 I took what was then known as the PACE Exam, which was an examination for the civil service. And at some point after that, I think it was in '77 or '78 that I took that exam, and then in '78 I was contacted by the National Archives and Records Service, as it then was, here in St. Louis and offered a job at the National Personnel Records Center. So since 1978 I have been employed by the National Archives.

[Assistant] All right. So what do you do at the National Archives? What is your job?

[User] Well I am the Chief of Archival Operations at the National Archives at St. Louis, which is a field location of the Office of Records Services, as it's currently organized. And we hold the accessioned records of … Basically our collection is unique, in that it's a national collection, it is not as in the other field locations, it is not a regional collection of federal records but it's a national collection. And they really are the personal data records held by the National Archives and created by the Federal government. In other words, records about people rather than about government offices and organizations.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the programs that you've worked on at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Pardon?

[Assistant] —long were you at the Archives in number of years?

[User] I didn't hear the first part of that.

[Assistant] Oh, I was just asking—I said you've already said when you started, I just need to know when, the number of years you've been doing that—

[User] [Interposing] Oh, yeah, well from 1978 to 2017 … is… hmmmmm… that would be 39 years. That plus my military service and accumulated sick leave and so forth means that I've ended up with 43 years, a little over 43 years of creditable federal civil service.

[Assistant] What did you do in the military?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't hear the first part of that.

[Assistant] Oh, I was just asking—I said you've already said when you started, I just need to know when, the number of years you've been doing that—

[User] [Interposing] Oh, yeah, well from 1978 to 2017 … is… hmmmmm… that would be 39 years. That plus my military service and accumulated sick leave and so forth means that I've ended up with 43 years, a little over 43 years of creditable federal civil service.

[Assistant] What did you do in the military?

[User] I was in the Army. I was drafted during the Vietnam period. I had been in graduate school at Oxford University in the United Kingdom, and, but I was in the Vietnam draft. So then I had to—living overseas, a lot of us that were there had to make the decision as to whether we would stay or go back and participate in a war that we did not believe in. So my sort of—I felt that the long-range thing to do would be to return and to serve. So I was in the Army from 1969 through the spring of 1972. I was part of the—President Nixon after his opening to China began a major reduction in force in the military, and those of us who were due to separate in less than a year were given an early out. So I served all of 2½ years and then was discharged in April of 1972, and fortunately I was able to … the organization that provided the scholarship that I was on at the University of Oxford when I left in '69, they said they would hold my scholarship and I was welcome to return, so in April of '72 I returned to the United Kingdom and continued to study there. Finishing up in 1974, late '74 and returning to my home in St. Louis in 1975.

[Assistant] Do you feel like your military background served you well in working for the Archives in St. Louis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. That was interesting. They felt when they established the Preservation Program in 2000 that they wanted somebody to initially head it up at the beginning who understood the records. And then the way it worked out is I was selected as the Preservation Officer but was able to select two outstanding records conservators to work with me, and actually one of those people succeeded me as the Preservation Officer here, Marta O'Neill, who has an amazing background in preservation as well as in archives. So they wanted somebody who had a deep background in the records and knew the condition of the records and would be able to prioritize the work. And so that's why, I think, why I applied for the job and why I was selected. But my major interest and background, of course, was in archives and in history as opposed to preservation and conservation.

[Assistant] Why did you initially apply to work at the Archives?

[User] Well, because my academic background and my greatest interest is in history. I really did not, never desired to be a teacher. So really, the other major way to work in history is to work with the primary sources. And that's of course what archives is, what archivists do. They work to identify and make accessible historical records. So that's what appealed to me about archives and certainly the National Archives. Which is, you know, the professional leader in this country.

[Assistant] Do you think you've learned a lot from being in the archives, for being there for 39 years?

[User] Oh, my goodness, tremendous amount, yeah. You really learn a lot about the history of the United States Government and all of the functions that the government performs, and it's fascinating work, and you learn something every day, really.

[Assistant] What are some things that you've learned that have surprised you over the years from working at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, because my academic background and my greatest interest is in history. I really did not, never desired to be a teacher. So really, the other major way to work in history is to work with the primary sources. And that's of course what archives is, what archivists do. They work to identify and make accessible historical records. So that's what appealed to me about archives and certainly the National Archives. Which is, you know, the professional leader in this country.

[Assistant] Do you think you've learned a lot from being in the archives, for being there for 39 years?

[User] Oh, my goodness, tremendous amount, yeah. You really learn a lot about the history of the United States Government and all of the functions that the government performs, and it's fascinating work, and you learn something every day, really.

[Assistant] What are some things that you've learned that have surprised you over the years from working at the Archives?

[User] Hmm. Well, I would say, understanding the complexity of bureaucracies, both of military and civilian bureaucracies. And how they evolved and developed has been pretty … a pretty amazing learning experience. If you want to know what I think are the most significant activities that I've been involved in over these years, I can name four of them [Laughing] right off the bat. If that would be of interest.

[Assistant] Go ahead, go for it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, tremendous. It's been—that's, you know, why I stayed as long as I have, because the work is fascinating, it's very rewarding. As someone who loves history and understands the importance of history, archives are the foundation of historical research. And without archives, history cannot be served. So it's been a wonderful, wonderful career. Wouldn't change it for anything.

[Assistant] Do you have anything else you want to add to your interview?

[User] I don’t think so. Can't think of anything at the moment.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything you need me to edit out of this interview at some point?

[User] I don't think so, but I mean would I be able to listen to it? You know I—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yeah, I can send it to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. Can't think of anything at the moment.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything you need me to edit out of this interview at some point?

[User] I don't think so, but I mean would I be able to listen to it? You know I—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yeah, I can send it to you.

[User] Yeah, and I can let you know. No, I don't think—I don't think so. I think I was accurate in what I said, but it would be nice to be able to listen to it and verify that.

[Assistant] Yes, sir, once the recording came out, we'll—I should be able to send it to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so, but I mean would I be able to listen to it? You know I—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Yeah, I can send it to you.

[User] Yeah, and I can let you know. No, I don't think—I don't think so. I think I was accurate in what I said, but it would be nice to be able to listen to it and verify that.

[Assistant] Yes, sir, once the recording came out, we'll—I should be able to send it to you.

[User] Okay. Great.

[Assistant] Just to let you know, nothing will be put online or released to anyone in the public for probably about five years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and I can let you know. No, I don't think—I don't think so. I think I was accurate in what I said, but it would be nice to be able to listen to it and verify that.

[Assistant] Yes, sir, once the recording came out, we'll—I should be able to send it to you.

[User] Okay. Great.

[Assistant] Just to let you know, nothing will be put online or released to anyone in the public for probably about five years.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So you have plenty of time to make your edits if need be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Great.

[Assistant] Just to let you know, nothing will be put online or released to anyone in the public for probably about five years.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So you have plenty of time to make your edits if need be.

[User] Okay. Great.

[Assistant] Alright, well thank you for letting me interview you for our Oral History Project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So you have plenty of time to make your edits if need be.

[User] Okay. Great.

[Assistant] Alright, well thank you for letting me interview you for our Oral History Project.

[User] Alrighty.

[Assistant] And thank you so much for talking to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not. I did the security checks, and it looked like I was going to be part of the crew, but when they decided they were only going to do one leg that eliminated me. They didn’t need a third FE to do a crew swap wherever they were going to stop at, so no, I wasn’t involved. I was helping for the training up to that point, but when it came time to fly the mission, no, I didn’t do it.

[Assistant] In August there was actually a formation of the SCAs flying together out at Edwards, which seems to be very unusual.

[User] Especially that big of an airplane. It was quite a moment, I’d never experienced something like that before. I’ve been part of formation flights, but nothing like that. Two 747s, I mean, that’s pretty unique. I was flying on [SCA] 911, so I got a chance to see Jeff in [SCA] 905 come up from behind us and to our left wing. To see such a big piece of metal coming towards you, it got your attention. It was fun to watch that and be part of that. From the videos I got to see from the F-18s [aircraft] and some of the ground shots, it was a pretty good photo op [opportunity].

[Assistant] Was there any discussion about where you would fly and how you would fly?

[User] Yes. We had a pre-brief before we went to go fly, and basically Jeff choreographed what we needed to do with both sets of airplanes and what he was planning on doing and how long we were going to be up. We also had to have the F-18 be part of that briefing, because when we’ve got three ships up there you want everybody to be on the same page of music.

[Assistant] How long did you fly in formation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Especially that big of an airplane. It was quite a moment, I’d never experienced something like that before. I’ve been part of formation flights, but nothing like that. Two 747s, I mean, that’s pretty unique. I was flying on [SCA] 911, so I got a chance to see Jeff in [SCA] 905 come up from behind us and to our left wing. To see such a big piece of metal coming towards you, it got your attention. It was fun to watch that and be part of that. From the videos I got to see from the F-18s [aircraft] and some of the ground shots, it was a pretty good photo op [opportunity].

[Assistant] Was there any discussion about where you would fly and how you would fly?

[User] Yes. We had a pre-brief before we went to go fly, and basically Jeff choreographed what we needed to do with both sets of airplanes and what he was planning on doing and how long we were going to be up. We also had to have the F-18 be part of that briefing, because when we’ve got three ships up there you want everybody to be on the same page of music.

[Assistant] How long did you fly in formation?

[User] Probably 30 minutes, I don’t remember. We couldn’t spend up very long, because 905 was very limited on aircraft time that it could fly because it was on a check flight and they were doing some engine monitoring stuff. They were very limited on their flight time, so it wasn’t very long.

[Assistant] Tell us, if you would, about your role as flight engineer in the flight readiness review [FRR].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, like I was talking about the maintenance schedule, if the one was in scheduled maintenance in Marana—the 905 was not going to go fly, 911’s available. It was just whatever airplane was up at that time was the one we used, it was just a matter of the maintenance schedule and where it was at at the time.

[Assistant] Your baby has just been retired, 911.

[User] I know, it’s a sad moment. Henry did me a favor. I was pre-flighting 905, and we were going to fly both airplanes. One was going to take off and go straight to Palmdale, and I was going to stay back and do a local with Bill Rieke and Bill [William F.] Brockett. Henry come up and he says, “You need to go do a walk-around one more time on the airplane before we can call it quits.” That was kind of fun.

[Assistant] Is it the newer of the two?

[User] Well, it was the latest of the two. It’s not the newer, because it had more flight time on it than 905. When we got 905 I think it had a little over 10,000 hours on it. When 911 came onboard it had over 30,000 hours on it. So 911 had a little more passenger time on it, but for ferry time, I would say 905 had more ferries than 911. You’d have to go back and look at the archives, but I’m almost positive it did. When I come onboard on the SCA in the ’90s—I think I was involved with over 30, 35 ferry missions, and it was a lot more before I come onboard. Do you know what the total is?

[Assistant] I think it’s 55 ferries from Edwards.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know, it’s a sad moment. Henry did me a favor. I was pre-flighting 905, and we were going to fly both airplanes. One was going to take off and go straight to Palmdale, and I was going to stay back and do a local with Bill Rieke and Bill [William F.] Brockett. Henry come up and he says, “You need to go do a walk-around one more time on the airplane before we can call it quits.” That was kind of fun.

[Assistant] Is it the newer of the two?

[User] Well, it was the latest of the two. It’s not the newer, because it had more flight time on it than 905. When we got 905 I think it had a little over 10,000 hours on it. When 911 came onboard it had over 30,000 hours on it. So 911 had a little more passenger time on it, but for ferry time, I would say 905 had more ferries than 911. You’d have to go back and look at the archives, but I’m almost positive it did. When I come onboard on the SCA in the ’90s—I think I was involved with over 30, 35 ferry missions, and it was a lot more before I come onboard. Do you know what the total is?

[Assistant] I think it’s 55 ferries from Edwards.

[User] Well, then I guess I did more than I thought. I was thinking there was 50 before I come on, but I don’t know. I didn’t do any counting until we got to looking at the numbers.

[Assistant] Why did NASA decide to retire her instead of 905?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was the latest of the two. It’s not the newer, because it had more flight time on it than 905. When we got 905 I think it had a little over 10,000 hours on it. When 911 came onboard it had over 30,000 hours on it. So 911 had a little more passenger time on it, but for ferry time, I would say 905 had more ferries than 911. You’d have to go back and look at the archives, but I’m almost positive it did. When I come onboard on the SCA in the ’90s—I think I was involved with over 30, 35 ferry missions, and it was a lot more before I come onboard. Do you know what the total is?

[Assistant] I think it’s 55 ferries from Edwards.

[User] Well, then I guess I did more than I thought. I was thinking there was 50 before I come on, but I don’t know. I didn’t do any counting until we got to looking at the numbers.

[Assistant] Why did NASA decide to retire her instead of 905?

[User] You know, I wasn’t part of that discussion. They just picked 911 to be the one that goes down. They took, I think, two engines that had better time and condition on them and put them on 905. I think I was told that we had some gear-overhaul issues and some time-change issues that it was too expensive to get repaired and modified, so they decided just to take the one down. I think that’s what I remember in the discussion.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, a lot of the early missions landed out at Edwards, and there were a lot of ferry missions back here, and then of course taking the orbiters from here out to Palmdale. As time went on, there were fewer and fewer flights. What impact does flying the plane less and less have on the aircraft itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, then I guess I did more than I thought. I was thinking there was 50 before I come on, but I don’t know. I didn’t do any counting until we got to looking at the numbers.

[Assistant] Why did NASA decide to retire her instead of 905?

[User] You know, I wasn’t part of that discussion. They just picked 911 to be the one that goes down. They took, I think, two engines that had better time and condition on them and put them on 905. I think I was told that we had some gear-overhaul issues and some time-change issues that it was too expensive to get repaired and modified, so they decided just to take the one down. I think that’s what I remember in the discussion.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, a lot of the early missions landed out at Edwards, and there were a lot of ferry missions back here, and then of course taking the orbiters from here out to Palmdale. As time went on, there were fewer and fewer flights. What impact does flying the plane less and less have on the aircraft itself?

[User] As I told you earlier, we’re multi-qualified and so we kept our hands in other projects. When the ferry mission come along, you found any way to get off the other schedules to get back. They were few and far between, so you really worked the schedule to make yourself available to go fly. We were still required to go out every three weeks to fly our locals and keep our landing currencies going and then going to the simulator twice a year, so that’s how we maintain our currency. When it came time for ferry mission, yes, it was pretty exciting times to get back to rolling again.

[Assistant] Does it have any impact on the aircraft itself, though? Because I know if you don’t drive a car on a regular basis it’s problematic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] That’s right.

[Assistant] Dr. Kepley or?

[User] Sure. Sure. That’s fine.

[Assistant] Doctor, okay.

[User] That’s fine.

[Assistant] All right. If you would just begin by telling me your dates of service for the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Chief of Program Analysis Branch, ‘88 to ‘93. And Chief of the User Services Branch, ‘93 to ‘94. And, as far as User Services Branch, is that Reference Services? What—

[User] [Interposing] Yeah. That’s what I mentioned. We were running the entire research complex—of all the research rooms. As I said, in retrospect did that really work? Well, you had to get something started, but I think they were better off running their own branches. That was, that whole conversation about getting that whole research room complex up and running, starting it from scratch, that’s what that was all about.

[Assistant] And I’ll ask you about the reorganizations a little bit later.

[User] Oh, okay. Sure.

[Assistant] I’ll ask you about that then. Then next was the Chief of Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Branch—1994 to ‘97.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Yeah. That’s what I mentioned. We were running the entire research complex—of all the research rooms. As I said, in retrospect did that really work? Well, you had to get something started, but I think they were better off running their own branches. That was, that whole conversation about getting that whole research room complex up and running, starting it from scratch, that’s what that was all about.

[Assistant] And I’ll ask you about the reorganizations a little bit later.

[User] Oh, okay. Sure.

[Assistant] I’ll ask you about that then. Then next was the Chief of Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Branch—1994 to ‘97.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And now to Electronic Records Archives Transition Officer, ‘97 to 2012.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, okay. Sure.

[Assistant] I’ll ask you about that then. Then next was the Chief of Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Branch—1994 to ‘97.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And now to Electronic Records Archives Transition Officer, ‘97 to 2012.

[User] To 2012.

[Assistant] That’s a mouthful for a title.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] We did—

[Assistant] —foresee that?

[User] Yes. There’s a lot of information that was developed by the ERA team in making the argument to OMB and Congress about how much stuff we are talking about. You’re right, we’re into the multi-terabyte, multi-petabyte stages and I think they were even talking about yottabytes, which, I think is next and a huge volume. How do you store that? How do you store it securely? I’m not a computer science guy, but there was a lot of work done and many studies into how much storage would be needed.

[Assistant] Mm-hmm.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Overall, how would you describe the success of ERA? Up to what you can remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There’s a lot of information that was developed by the ERA team in making the argument to OMB and Congress about how much stuff we are talking about. You’re right, we’re into the multi-terabyte, multi-petabyte stages and I think they were even talking about yottabytes, which, I think is next and a huge volume. How do you store that? How do you store it securely? I’m not a computer science guy, but there was a lot of work done and many studies into how much storage would be needed.

[Assistant] Mm-hmm.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. Overall, how would you describe the success of ERA? Up to what you can remember?

[User] Well, as I say, at the beginning, it was not a success at all. It was pretty much in failure mode until they brought in another team. It’s been launched to the entire Federal government. As far as I know, the entire Federal government is using it and we’re not using paper anymore. Are they all happy? Nobody’s ever happy but I think people are adjusting to it. How is it working within NARA? Are people using it? Yes. It is the system of record for our accessions and our appraisals. Can it be better? When it comes to these electronic systems, they can always be better. There will be a constant need of fixing things. Is it a success? I think it is doing its basic core mission. It has been completed, has been laid out, and now they have to populate it. They have to keep using it and they have to keep revising it.

[Assistant] So who are some of the people who’ve helped you with your career at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for the earliest ones, I was at such a low level I hardly had any inkling of the impact. I started under Bert Rhoads. I’m a beginning archivist, what do I know what he’s doing? I had no notion of that. Warner got us independence. I met the man a few times and he seemed like a wonderful guy, but I had almost no personal contacts with him. With Don Wilson, his focus was on Regional Archives and trying to expand that program. There was some wisdom in that, but there was lack of wisdom in the way he went about it. I think he left us with a legacy that was not as good as it could have been. Then John Carlin was able to get us an awful lot of money and that helped us during the Clinton Administration. I did not have much interaction with Weinstein. I had some with David Ferriero. He continued the push towards toward ERA, which is good. Again, I didn’t have a whole lot dealing with folks at that level, my dealings with folks at the level below that. I was just an archivist.

[Assistant] What organizations have influenced your career, SAA or any of the other?

[User] Oh, outside organizations?

[Assistant] Mm-hmm.

[User] I was a member of SAA at the very beginning but it became difficult to stick with that just because the problem with being active in these associations was NARA, unless you can get on the program, generally did not support people going to the conventions. They’re almost always out of the city, so that’s a significant personal commitment of funds to do that. Once you start having a family, a mortgage, it’s hard to, so I didn’t do that as much as I would have liked to. I enjoyed it early on when I didn’t have some of those commitments and my wife and I were on a double income and no kids. Once we started having children, I didn’t have time to do that. SAA did not have much of an influence on me. MARAC somewhat more, because it’s local and you could get to those places more easily.

[Assistant] Have you had any work with the Archives Assembly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, outside organizations?

[Assistant] Mm-hmm.

[User] I was a member of SAA at the very beginning but it became difficult to stick with that just because the problem with being active in these associations was NARA, unless you can get on the program, generally did not support people going to the conventions. They’re almost always out of the city, so that’s a significant personal commitment of funds to do that. Once you start having a family, a mortgage, it’s hard to, so I didn’t do that as much as I would have liked to. I enjoyed it early on when I didn’t have some of those commitments and my wife and I were on a double income and no kids. Once we started having children, I didn’t have time to do that. SAA did not have much of an influence on me. MARAC somewhat more, because it’s local and you could get to those places more easily.

[Assistant] Have you had any work with the Archives Assembly?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had any relation with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a member of SAA at the very beginning but it became difficult to stick with that just because the problem with being active in these associations was NARA, unless you can get on the program, generally did not support people going to the conventions. They’re almost always out of the city, so that’s a significant personal commitment of funds to do that. Once you start having a family, a mortgage, it’s hard to, so I didn’t do that as much as I would have liked to. I enjoyed it early on when I didn’t have some of those commitments and my wife and I were on a double income and no kids. Once we started having children, I didn’t have time to do that. SAA did not have much of an influence on me. MARAC somewhat more, because it’s local and you could get to those places more easily.

[Assistant] Have you had any work with the Archives Assembly?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had any relation with them?

[User] Yes. I was there when the Assembly first was formed in the late 1970’s. I was there for some of those discussions. It is a wonderful organization. It is what we should have been doing, all along, an organization of professionals and paraprofessionals sharing their insights. I very much believe in what they do and how they’ve done it. I think it’s terrific.

[Assistant] Now your wife still works here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had any relation with them?

[User] Yes. I was there when the Assembly first was formed in the late 1970’s. I was there for some of those discussions. It is a wonderful organization. It is what we should have been doing, all along, an organization of professionals and paraprofessionals sharing their insights. I very much believe in what they do and how they’ve done it. I think it’s terrific.

[Assistant] Now your wife still works here?

[User] No. She retired two weeks ago.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s right. Two weeks ago, that’s right. So, at one point your children and your wife and yourself all worked at the Archive. Can you explain how that worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know about pretty easily. It was hard to leave here. It was very hard. Part of it is, I believe in the mission of the National Archives. I do. I met my wife here. My kids worked here. I was trained as an historian and I wanted to go into an academic profession. I worked here and it was sort of a fallback position, but then it became a passion for me. I have a passion for the mission of the National Archives, absolutely. By the way, while I was working here I worked part-time as a history professor at Northern Virginia Community College. As I was coming to the end of my career, I went back to those guys and said, “Would it be okay if I came back?” And they said, “Sure, come on back.” That’s what I’m doing. Two weeks, a week after I left here, I was teaching a class at Northern Virginia Community College, a history class, of course. I’m a history professor. When I’m asked who am I and what am I doing now? I say, “Well I worked for the National Archives for 35 years and two years in other government organizations, so 37 years overall for the Federal government, but I’m a history professor. I’ve always felt like I’m kind of like both. I’m proud of both of those experiences. My wife and I, now that’s she’s retired, have done some traveling. We’ll be doing some more of that and just enjoying ourselves. It was difficult to transition at first, but once I jumped into the teaching that helped me. I could do something that I loved. I had never taught the class before so I had to work really hard to get ready for it, to get ready for all the questions and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. It was fun.

[Assistant] [Interposing] Any other topics you’d like to talk about?

[User] I don’t think so. I think I’ve done it. Do you guys have any other questions?

[Assistant] No.

[User] You sure?

[Assistant] All right. Well, thank you for your time today, sir.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came on there in ’97, and it launched in 2001. Of course it takes a very long time to establish the requirements, build the physical module. But, more than building the structure, it’s the interfaces—the interfaces to the other modules as well as the interfaces of all the systems and hardware within it. All the requirements had been defined, it was just in the final build integration test phase.

[Assistant] What were some of the challenges that you faced as you moved to get this module ready for launch?

[User] As always, schedule is a challenge. You have to be flexible, because the schedules on complex programs and the testing—if not everything goes exactly as planned, then you have to look and see where it is—either you can make up the schedule, or where it is, can you can adjust for the longer term—because the most important thing is, of course, is to have it right.

[Assistant] Talk some about that ’97 to 2001 time period. You did have a schedule. There was an expectation that Destiny was going to become full-fledged, and as you mentioned, become the heart of the Station. Walk us through some of the more significant achievement, and the goals and accomplishments, and even some of the failures that you encountered getting that package ready to go.

[User] There were two aspects to it—like I said, the software and the avionics, and having that at the level that it needed to be [in order] to be tested. A lot of that testing was actually done here. Then there was the physical interface testing, which was done at [NASA] KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] with the module to understand the physical interfaces. Schedule is always a problem—certainly it did not launch as planned when I came on, as far as the timing. But it got there very successfully, was integrated successfully, operated right away, and of course is still operating successfully on orbit today.

[Assistant] You mentioned Centers earlier. Did you have a working relationship with [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] at that time, or was that afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As always, schedule is a challenge. You have to be flexible, because the schedules on complex programs and the testing—if not everything goes exactly as planned, then you have to look and see where it is—either you can make up the schedule, or where it is, can you can adjust for the longer term—because the most important thing is, of course, is to have it right.

[Assistant] Talk some about that ’97 to 2001 time period. You did have a schedule. There was an expectation that Destiny was going to become full-fledged, and as you mentioned, become the heart of the Station. Walk us through some of the more significant achievement, and the goals and accomplishments, and even some of the failures that you encountered getting that package ready to go.

[User] There were two aspects to it—like I said, the software and the avionics, and having that at the level that it needed to be [in order] to be tested. A lot of that testing was actually done here. Then there was the physical interface testing, which was done at [NASA] KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] with the module to understand the physical interfaces. Schedule is always a problem—certainly it did not launch as planned when I came on, as far as the timing. But it got there very successfully, was integrated successfully, operated right away, and of course is still operating successfully on orbit today.

[Assistant] You mentioned Centers earlier. Did you have a working relationship with [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] at that time, or was that afterwards?

[User] We did work with Marshall a good bit. We worked of course with KSC a good bit because a lot of the testing of the physical hardware was done down at KSC. I’d say those were probably the primary interfaces that I had.

[Assistant] Were you there, here, there, and everywhere, going from place to place as the manager of the module? I know you had a team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were two aspects to it—like I said, the software and the avionics, and having that at the level that it needed to be [in order] to be tested. A lot of that testing was actually done here. Then there was the physical interface testing, which was done at [NASA] KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] with the module to understand the physical interfaces. Schedule is always a problem—certainly it did not launch as planned when I came on, as far as the timing. But it got there very successfully, was integrated successfully, operated right away, and of course is still operating successfully on orbit today.

[Assistant] You mentioned Centers earlier. Did you have a working relationship with [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] at that time, or was that afterwards?

[User] We did work with Marshall a good bit. We worked of course with KSC a good bit because a lot of the testing of the physical hardware was done down at KSC. I’d say those were probably the primary interfaces that I had.

[Assistant] Were you there, here, there, and everywhere, going from place to place as the manager of the module? I know you had a team.

[User] Right. I would say a lot of the work that I did was from here, because a lot of it was more of a program-level integration versus integration of the subsystems and the detailed technical work. A lot of it was done from here. I would say the place that I would travel occasionally would be to KSC.

[Assistant] Of course as you were getting ready for launch, that wasn’t really the end. That was more the beginning, because Destiny would be going up to make its place in history. What were some of the other duties and responsibilities that you were working on that you needed to take care of while launch was being prepared for, and then eventually that you moved into after Destiny was up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did work with Marshall a good bit. We worked of course with KSC a good bit because a lot of the testing of the physical hardware was done down at KSC. I’d say those were probably the primary interfaces that I had.

[Assistant] Were you there, here, there, and everywhere, going from place to place as the manager of the module? I know you had a team.

[User] Right. I would say a lot of the work that I did was from here, because a lot of it was more of a program-level integration versus integration of the subsystems and the detailed technical work. A lot of it was done from here. I would say the place that I would travel occasionally would be to KSC.

[Assistant] Of course as you were getting ready for launch, that wasn’t really the end. That was more the beginning, because Destiny would be going up to make its place in history. What were some of the other duties and responsibilities that you were working on that you needed to take care of while launch was being prepared for, and then eventually that you moved into after Destiny was up?

[User] My responsibilities on Destiny ended when it was launched and integrated. We worked real-time ops [operations] just during the actual flight until it was integrated onto Space Station. But then my role moved to other flights after that.

[Assistant] Tell us about those and then how those eventually led to where you are now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To be honest, yes. I did actually read that myself. I believe this is on HTV, and it is to look at how the aging is different. Actually they’re going to be on orbit, some of them, for one year and some for two. Then they will get the results and test them.

[Assistant] I’m sure that’ll have a big story after that. I just thought well, that’s odd.

[User] It was a little unusual. It didn’t take any special handling from our perspective.

[Assistant] Are there other aspects or elements throughout your lifespan working on the cargo part that have been maybe disappointing, that you worked really hard to make sure things got up? And that you had to go back and rethink, and that ended up in a process that maybe got enhanced or improved for the next time something got sent up?

[User] We did have some trouble with the NanoRacks [LLC] CubeSats [miniaturized satellites] on the deploy. The various teams, not just in my area, worked with them to make sure that we have the requirements right, and they have tested them appropriately so that they don’t have any problems in the future with them.

[Assistant] Seems like the word you use a lot is “teams.” You really work with a lot of people. What’s the common ground? Is it a series of meetings or a series of requirements? What seems to be the working piece that makes it work well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I will apologize here, because I don’t know. I know that we have done some work that will help Orion, but I don’t have the specifics today.

[Assistant] That’s okay. You’ve talked about one of the most memorable moments was being able to work with Destiny, getting it ready and then watching it launch. Do you have any others that you’d like to share with us that seem to stand out in your memory?

[User] I think probably the first launch of every vehicle. The first launch of ATV—making sure it was successful, the docking was successful, and it appropriately brought all the cargo. The first launch of the HTV, the first launch of the SpaceX, first launch of Orbital. I think all the first time launches are very special in that you do have a lot more coordination and integration, but you also are a lot more nervous initially. So you want to make sure that everything goes well, and they have done very well. It’s not just the launch. I say launch, but obviously the important part is either the docking or berthing to Station and successfully carrying out the mission, because you’ve got to have the science and the other logistics delivered.

[Assistant] Are you here watching? Or are you somewhere else?

[User] I have not gone to one of those launches. There are a few people that have. For instance in my office I do have a few people that go to KSC for the late load. They process it at KSC because KSC has some laboratories that can be used for the L minus 24-hour [24 hours before launch] late load. Then they just truck it across the causeway over to the Canaveral side, so I do have a couple of people who work for me that have seen a SpaceX launch.

[Assistant] Maybe something to put on your list, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably the first launch of every vehicle. The first launch of ATV—making sure it was successful, the docking was successful, and it appropriately brought all the cargo. The first launch of the HTV, the first launch of the SpaceX, first launch of Orbital. I think all the first time launches are very special in that you do have a lot more coordination and integration, but you also are a lot more nervous initially. So you want to make sure that everything goes well, and they have done very well. It’s not just the launch. I say launch, but obviously the important part is either the docking or berthing to Station and successfully carrying out the mission, because you’ve got to have the science and the other logistics delivered.

[Assistant] Are you here watching? Or are you somewhere else?

[User] I have not gone to one of those launches. There are a few people that have. For instance in my office I do have a few people that go to KSC for the late load. They process it at KSC because KSC has some laboratories that can be used for the L minus 24-hour [24 hours before launch] late load. Then they just truck it across the causeway over to the Canaveral side, so I do have a couple of people who work for me that have seen a SpaceX launch.

[Assistant] Maybe something to put on your list, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We started out by talking about where you started. You mentioned that you had spent that year in Russia and getting to understand how important it is to understand the international partners. Of course Russia was the first one and now you’re working with the Japanese and you’ve worked with ESA [European Space Agency]. What do you feel are some of the lessons that you have learned by working with these international groups that work well for all of those, or just work well for you? What can you share with us as important lessons when you’re working with international partners?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that’s the purpose of an International Space Station. That’s what the “I” stands for. We are a global community. International Space Station is a global cooperative effort. I have not read that specific article, but them reaching out to get science from other different countries and parts of the world I think is a very good thing.

[Assistant] It’s a nice common language to share, science in itself.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Are there any other thoughts or any other comments or experiences that you’d like to share or talk about while we’re here today? Anything personal or professional that you’ve shared, or something else that you’ve learned that maybe would be a good thing to pass on to others?

[User] I think mainly people need to keep pursuing their goals. You don’t necessarily get your ideal position the day you come, and it may not even be the best fit. But if you know what your goal is and you keep moving towards it—just as I did when I went back and saw what I needed to do to move over into first the Space Shuttle and then the Station—you just have to understand what your goals are and then keep taking the steps in order to achieve them.

[Assistant] We should watch and see what you’re going to do with Mars. Is that what you’re saying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Are there any other thoughts or any other comments or experiences that you’d like to share or talk about while we’re here today? Anything personal or professional that you’ve shared, or something else that you’ve learned that maybe would be a good thing to pass on to others?

[User] I think mainly people need to keep pursuing their goals. You don’t necessarily get your ideal position the day you come, and it may not even be the best fit. But if you know what your goal is and you keep moving towards it—just as I did when I went back and saw what I needed to do to move over into first the Space Shuttle and then the Station—you just have to understand what your goals are and then keep taking the steps in order to achieve them.

[Assistant] We should watch and see what you’re going to do with Mars. Is that what you’re saying?

[User] I would love to see what we’re going to do with Mars. I would just love it. We definitely need to go beyond low-Earth orbit. Station is going to be an excellent—I think like you say the legacy, it’ll come a little bit later. Usually people don’t understand all of the benefits initially. It does come a little bit later. But I hope one of the legacies is that it did help us to do human exploration beyond low-Earth orbit as well as the science that helps the individuals on Earth.

[Assistant] Thank you for coming today and for doing so much that you’ve done and sharing that with us. Appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This facility, it was about 1978. Then I went on until the end of the construction of facility, which finished in 1992.

[Assistant] That was the upgrade of the integrated systems?

[User] No, I’m sorry, it wasn’t ’78, it was ’87.

[Assistant] [In] ’87 you came to this facility?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, then maybe, Mr. Milhoan, I should ask you. What changes did you do in the building to support the Shuttle program itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It may be like a subsystem manager, or it could be the Orbiter Project Office. We do real-time flight support. So, for example, you remember when they had to go out, I think it was STS-117, and the blankets over this carbon honeycomb were pulled up, and they wanted to find out [if we] should we go repair it. They found some stainless steel pins and staples and said, “Well, we’ll go push it down and we’ll staple it and pin it.” But nobody knew what those metallic things were going to do during reentry at the location that they were at.\n\n You’ve got to move pretty fast. They built test articles and got the pins over here. Right here at this table where we’re sitting, the astronaut would come over and have a glove, and they would read the script that they were going to have them follow when they repaired it. They folded it down with the glove and put the pins in it and the staples. Then we put that test article in a water-cooled wedge holder that we’d already precalibrated and knew what conditions to run. We ran that and then people were able to see it and say, “Hey, that looks pretty good,” and then they said, “Okay, now go out and repair it, because we know it’s going to work.” We do real-time support like that.

They repaired it while they were on orbit. After they came back the astronaut who did the repair in space came over and gave his thanks.

Gave us that guy up there. [Points to wall hanging from the flight crew.]

[Assistant] Who was the astronaut?

[User] Danny [John D.] Olivas. He’s the one who repaired it and he said, “Thanks a lot.”

[Assistant] I’m sure he did.

[User] Even years before that, I forget what mission it was. They had these white deposits show up on a vehicle, I think it was on the runway at White Sands.

[Assistant] At Edwards [Air Force Base, California]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Danny [John D.] Olivas. He’s the one who repaired it and he said, “Thanks a lot.”

[Assistant] I’m sure he did.

[User] Even years before that, I forget what mission it was. They had these white deposits show up on a vehicle, I think it was on the runway at White Sands.

[Assistant] At Edwards [Air Force Base, California]?

[User]
Edwards. Then they started looking at all the vehicles and they go, “What is this white stuff?” Scrape it off and try to analyze it. It’s calcium carbonate. They thought is that going to cause a problem, where’d it come from. They had a vehicle, and I forget which mission it was. They had it sitting on the pad. They didn’t know whether to roll it back and study this problem or what. They said, “We’ll run an arc jet test and show that this material is okay if we can for one mission. Then they’ll give us time to work the problem.”\n\n They got samples of it and we had these RCC [Reinforced Carbon-Carbon] sample pucks. Astronauts flew a T-[38] down there with a puck, and they contaminated it with the stuff off the vehicle. They flew it back. Meanwhile, we had the test point identified and put it in, ran it, and everything looked okay, and said, “You’re okay, you don’t have to pull the vehicle back.” From the time they asked us to run that test until we had the results was 36 hours. We were working round the clock and had to get everything quick because they had to make that decision. They didn’t want to leave it sitting out on the pad longer than necessary.

We get on standby for every flight in case they have problems.

[Assistant] Is it unusual for you to be called?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We wish you the best of luck.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you want to add before we finish?

[User] No. I think I’ve talked a lot.

[Assistant] That’s okay. We learned a lot. Thank you for sharing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had been in the Navy during the Korean War. After I got out, I went to college at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and studied physics. In the Navy, I was involved in electronics and sonar. That was the job I had, which was searching for submarines, if you will. Anyway, when I was graduating, I interviewed for a number of jobs. One was this thing called NACA, which I didn’t fully understand except they talked about rockets and going to the Moon and so forth. I was a long-time fan of science fiction, so I signed up for the job and came to work here in July of ’58. It was still NACA until October.

[Assistant] Where was your interview? Was it here locally when you got out of the Navy?

[User] Well, I interviewed in Chapel Hill.

[Assistant] In Chapel Hill.

[User] They had a recruiter, Bill [William M.] Bland, if I’ve got the name right. He went to Houston [Texas, Manned Spacecraft Center/Johnson Space Center]. I’m sure he retired there. He was a super interviewer, and he got me all excited about the job. Anyway, I came up then. When I arrived here, I interviewed at the headquarters here. They said, “OK, electronics and physics—you’re going to work for the Instrument Research Division [IRD]. Don’t even look anywhere else.” The first building as you come in is Building 1230, and that’s where I went in 1958. I stayed in electronics and instrumentation measurements for most of my career.

[Assistant] When you got here, 1957 was such a monumental year. Sputnik [Russian satellite] had debuted in October. Of course, it was months after that. Did that have an impact on your interest at all of trying to do something maybe in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I interviewed in Chapel Hill.

[Assistant] In Chapel Hill.

[User] They had a recruiter, Bill [William M.] Bland, if I’ve got the name right. He went to Houston [Texas, Manned Spacecraft Center/Johnson Space Center]. I’m sure he retired there. He was a super interviewer, and he got me all excited about the job. Anyway, I came up then. When I arrived here, I interviewed at the headquarters here. They said, “OK, electronics and physics—you’re going to work for the Instrument Research Division [IRD]. Don’t even look anywhere else.” The first building as you come in is Building 1230, and that’s where I went in 1958. I stayed in electronics and instrumentation measurements for most of my career.

[Assistant] When you got here, 1957 was such a monumental year. Sputnik [Russian satellite] had debuted in October. Of course, it was months after that. Did that have an impact on your interest at all of trying to do something maybe in space?

[User] Yeah, absolutely it did. I was very much interested in that. When I got here, it was all rumbling. There was this committee put together by NACA, laying out space plans, which eventually resulted in the creation of the Space Task Group and then the opening of the Center in Houston. They were putting that together. It was just very exciting—the response to Sputnik—but really to go in space and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you have any thoughts of maybe wanting to join up with that group, or was that even an option at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely, all of them were. I mentioned Nelson and Jim Stitt. [G.] Barry Graves was another one I worked with. George [W.] Brooks, who directed the structures program is still living—he’s close by. They were all just terrific guys. The ones I gave you on that last list, they were ‘Directors for.’ If you can imagine, you had the Center Director and then maybe his deputy, and then the next level were department heads, and they were called ‘Directors for.’ Those guys—Stitt, Barry Graves, George Brooks—they were just terrific, terrific guys. You did the right thing. They got you excited, and then you did the right thing. You didn’t screw around. You did it right. They would take you to task to be sure that you had done it exactly right, and that’s good.

[Assistant] Did you have a formal peer review? How did you know you did it right?

[User] Yes, you had a formal career review. It would take on different things over my career. Towards the end, it was fairly formal. You had to report and deliver on these things. In general, whether it was a formal document or not, you were given assignments and graded on those assignments. Later on, I remember there were cases where you really were; your name was attached to that thing, and if that didn’t succeed, then your career was—

[Assistant] Impacted.

[User] Impacted. That’s right—influenced.

[Assistant] Were you able to follow your projects all the way through? You mentioned about the different project things. Did you just work on a piece and then hand it off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you had a formal career review. It would take on different things over my career. Towards the end, it was fairly formal. You had to report and deliver on these things. In general, whether it was a formal document or not, you were given assignments and graded on those assignments. Later on, I remember there were cases where you really were; your name was attached to that thing, and if that didn’t succeed, then your career was—

[Assistant] Impacted.

[User] Impacted. That’s right—influenced.

[Assistant] Were you able to follow your projects all the way through? You mentioned about the different project things. Did you just work on a piece and then hand it off?

[User] You generally could follow through. Some things had been going on for a lot of years. You may come in and help contribute to it and then step back out, but your contributions in that period were recognized and they knew what you were doing. As you got up in management, then you began to have to manage those under you and see how they worked. You’d have to track them, motivate them, and make them commit to it; performance appraisal-type stuff.

[Assistant] A different type of hands-on activity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Impacted. That’s right—influenced.

[Assistant] Were you able to follow your projects all the way through? You mentioned about the different project things. Did you just work on a piece and then hand it off?

[User] You generally could follow through. Some things had been going on for a lot of years. You may come in and help contribute to it and then step back out, but your contributions in that period were recognized and they knew what you were doing. As you got up in management, then you began to have to manage those under you and see how they worked. You’d have to track them, motivate them, and make them commit to it; performance appraisal-type stuff.

[Assistant] A different type of hands-on activity.

[User] That’s a different type. That’s right.

[Assistant] What was the biggest change, if any, when the NACA officially became NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You generally could follow through. Some things had been going on for a lot of years. You may come in and help contribute to it and then step back out, but your contributions in that period were recognized and they knew what you were doing. As you got up in management, then you began to have to manage those under you and see how they worked. You’d have to track them, motivate them, and make them commit to it; performance appraisal-type stuff.

[Assistant] A different type of hands-on activity.

[User] That’s a different type. That’s right.

[Assistant] What was the biggest change, if any, when the NACA officially became NASA?

[User] I didn’t spend a lot of time in NACA—a couple of months pretty much—but the people who had been there were still there. As an aside, the most important thing for those who had worked in NACA were the wings [wall plaque] that you got. I ended up getting a set of wings at the end. For a while, you had to have worked one year or two years or whatever, but I watched grown men cry when they were awarded those wings. It was a very significant moment in their professional careers.

[Assistant] So, for different parts of their career, they received those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a different type. That’s right.

[Assistant] What was the biggest change, if any, when the NACA officially became NASA?

[User] I didn’t spend a lot of time in NACA—a couple of months pretty much—but the people who had been there were still there. As an aside, the most important thing for those who had worked in NACA were the wings [wall plaque] that you got. I ended up getting a set of wings at the end. For a while, you had to have worked one year or two years or whatever, but I watched grown men cry when they were awarded those wings. It was a very significant moment in their professional careers.

[Assistant] So, for different parts of their career, they received those?

[User] Yes. I just want to make the point that a lot of the guys that had served—and women—in NACA were still here with NASA, so we carried over a lot of that history and appreciation of what had been done in the past and their contributions as we began to bring in large numbers of new people. As you know, at Johnson, the Space Task Group was formed here with [Robert R.] Gilruth. They went down, and a lot of friends of mine went down with them. I kept track of them for years. I’ve lost a lot of people at this point in my age.

[Assistant] Do you feel like the culture of the comradery or the nature of the level of achievement changed in any ways when more and more new people were added to the ranks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I just want to make the point that a lot of the guys that had served—and women—in NACA were still here with NASA, so we carried over a lot of that history and appreciation of what had been done in the past and their contributions as we began to bring in large numbers of new people. As you know, at Johnson, the Space Task Group was formed here with [Robert R.] Gilruth. They went down, and a lot of friends of mine went down with them. I kept track of them for years. I’ve lost a lot of people at this point in my age.

[Assistant] Do you feel like the culture of the comradery or the nature of the level of achievement changed in any ways when more and more new people were added to the ranks?

[User] I don’t think so. There were times when some of the people here had been at Langley for a long time in aeronautics, mostly. This space group had run off down to Texas. A little bit later, Langley did a Viking project [Mars space probes], and it was a terrific program. It went to Mars, but, at the time, it was a group that worked on that space project who demanded a lot of resources from Langley. The aeronautics and older people working there resented that a little bit, so there was a little bit of in-fighting and that kind of thing. In the end, I think they all were extremely proud of the product and the accomplishments. It was an amazing thing for this aeronautics-based organization to rise up and take on a major space exploration project. They had done other things, but here was landing on Mars. That was absolutely terrific.

[Assistant] Were you involved with that?

[User] No, I wasn’t. I was on the other side. A lot of my friends were.

[Assistant] Did you know what they were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. There were times when some of the people here had been at Langley for a long time in aeronautics, mostly. This space group had run off down to Texas. A little bit later, Langley did a Viking project [Mars space probes], and it was a terrific program. It went to Mars, but, at the time, it was a group that worked on that space project who demanded a lot of resources from Langley. The aeronautics and older people working there resented that a little bit, so there was a little bit of in-fighting and that kind of thing. In the end, I think they all were extremely proud of the product and the accomplishments. It was an amazing thing for this aeronautics-based organization to rise up and take on a major space exploration project. They had done other things, but here was landing on Mars. That was absolutely terrific.

[Assistant] Were you involved with that?

[User] No, I wasn’t. I was on the other side. A lot of my friends were.

[Assistant] Did you know what they were doing?

[User] Yes, you knew pretty much what they were doing. What would happen was they would work on a project. There was one where they were doing the lunar orbiter, which was doing photographs of the lunar surface. They would come, and we’d interact with those people pretty well. Then, as Viking, I’d go in, and they would come in and say, “We need more people, engineers or electrical engineers in this area to come work over here.” So they would draft some in for a while. They’d come back and forth. It was an interaction. There was a little competition during it, but with both sides working just absolutely focused on success.

[Assistant] How did your role change in the division from where you started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that’s right. So, when you say human factors, how do you handle, inform, and keep the pilot up to date so that, if something happens, how does he take over?

[Assistant] Was that also related to the glass cockpit change in the Shuttle?

[User] Yes, I think so, because before they were electromechanical, and now they were glass. For example, different airlines might have a different cockpit configuration. If it’s glass, meaning it’s like a television set, you can change and modify that easily through software, where before you were stuck with a hard, electromechanical instrument. It just opened up a whole new world. Like we do on iPhones today, we have the display, and we can upgrade the software and get new applications. It was the beginning of that whole period.

[Assistant] I have a question I want to ask you about how technology impacted your career—the changes of what you walked into. Actually, when you were with the sonar, you started using that instrumentation, but yet, what you ended up with when you were leaving.

[User] Yeah, that’s right. Of course, in the early days, we were looking at screens and listening with our ears. You got to the point that you could identify that echo as a submarine, but you were augmented by the electronics. As we got up further, I began to look at the avionics and airplanes. I wrote a paper, “Coming Cockpit Avionics.” One of the little schemes we talked about was the pilot would get into the cockpit and everything is just blank, but he put on a pair of glasses, and the glasses were programmed to be a cockpit. Anyway, Google Glasses—we didn’t know. They owe us.

[Assistant] If you could have just patented that!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, of course, we don’t talk to each other anymore, except to Siri.

[Assistant] She’s very popular. It’s a good thing you like her.\n\n What do you think are some of the principles or some of the basic tenets that you learned when you were first here that carried you through your career, again learning from some of those first people that were here as NACA folks? You learned, and then you carried those through that other people could learn from you.

[User] I think loyalty, dedication to the job to do it right, and to work hard to do it right, depending on teammates, and you have to, because you can’t do it all. I don’t care how great you think you are, it’s going to be a team effort. And to work together to that common good and to be so excited about it and enjoy what you’re doing as you go along. I left NASA in 1989, and since then, I have a small business that we helped form in ’99, and it’s still going. The jobs you do there—I learned how to approach them as tasks; how to plan them and how to put them together.\n\n We have a team of members of our little company that come and go, but the company is the same sort of thing. I don’t know what it is, but you need that. I need that to be able to go in and do the work. I worry about not coming home to my wife. At the same time, I go home, and I’m interfering with her life. There is a resentment I run into it with women that don’t want this guy to come home and take over her life. At the same time, you both are always engaged in roles that change. As the kids grow up and move away, you both change.

[Assistant] It’s a full life of negotiation, isn’t it?

[User] Exactly. It never goes away. You learn that with government and keeping the marriage together.

[Assistant] You say you worked at Headquarters for a while. You worked between all those Centers, you must have learned a few practices of well-kept secrets of how to make things work with numerous personalities and agendas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think loyalty, dedication to the job to do it right, and to work hard to do it right, depending on teammates, and you have to, because you can’t do it all. I don’t care how great you think you are, it’s going to be a team effort. And to work together to that common good and to be so excited about it and enjoy what you’re doing as you go along. I left NASA in 1989, and since then, I have a small business that we helped form in ’99, and it’s still going. The jobs you do there—I learned how to approach them as tasks; how to plan them and how to put them together.\n\n We have a team of members of our little company that come and go, but the company is the same sort of thing. I don’t know what it is, but you need that. I need that to be able to go in and do the work. I worry about not coming home to my wife. At the same time, I go home, and I’m interfering with her life. There is a resentment I run into it with women that don’t want this guy to come home and take over her life. At the same time, you both are always engaged in roles that change. As the kids grow up and move away, you both change.

[Assistant] It’s a full life of negotiation, isn’t it?

[User] Exactly. It never goes away. You learn that with government and keeping the marriage together.

[Assistant] You say you worked at Headquarters for a while. You worked between all those Centers, you must have learned a few practices of well-kept secrets of how to make things work with numerous personalities and agendas.

[User] If you’re worried about being sure everybody is on board, make the team larger and include everybody. They’ve got to be there to work it.

[Assistant] You were working there at a very interesting time during the Shuttle Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. It never goes away. You learn that with government and keeping the marriage together.

[Assistant] You say you worked at Headquarters for a while. You worked between all those Centers, you must have learned a few practices of well-kept secrets of how to make things work with numerous personalities and agendas.

[User] If you’re worried about being sure everybody is on board, make the team larger and include everybody. They’ve got to be there to work it.

[Assistant] You were working there at a very interesting time during the Shuttle Program.

[User] It was. The whole thing was fascinating; the excitement of the Moon landings and anything we had done. NASA was and is a wonderful name that when you mention that’s who you worked for, people step up and pay attention. One time in my life outside, I was back in my little hometown in North Carolina. Somebody said, “Where are you working now?”\n\n I said, “NASA.”\n\n They said, “Is that an insurance agency?” It wasn’t everywhere, but most people were learning about it. It was a great organization. It’s been wonderful to be part of it.

[Assistant] Do you ever find a time that you go back and reflect on that was probably the most challenging time period that you worked for the agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a great program, because there we worked very closely with the Air Force. I think, over the years, NASA has been a great partner with the Department of Defense, especially the Air Force.

[Assistant] Do you feel like you got everything accomplished with that program that you wanted to before you left, or did you find parts of that frustrating?

[User] No, it was frustrating. Some of the technology wasn’t ready. It was a fairly expensive program, and so priorities come and priorities go. As we currently know in budgets in Congress, there are going to be airplanes that people love or programs that people have dedicated their lives to make work that are not going to happen because currently we have budget problems. But, don’t give up the vision. You’ve got to keep going. I was looking at an interview with the guy who runs Tesla.

[Assistant] Elon Musk.

[User] He lives on the edge of failure at every minute but doesn’t give up. He’s a great model, I think, for a lot of people. The challenges are tough, but they’re exciting. You may fail, but don’t not go after them. That’s what’s exciting to me.

[Assistant] What do you think has been the most rewarding part of you working in your career? What is something that you’re most proud of that you were able to accomplish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was frustrating. Some of the technology wasn’t ready. It was a fairly expensive program, and so priorities come and priorities go. As we currently know in budgets in Congress, there are going to be airplanes that people love or programs that people have dedicated their lives to make work that are not going to happen because currently we have budget problems. But, don’t give up the vision. You’ve got to keep going. I was looking at an interview with the guy who runs Tesla.

[Assistant] Elon Musk.

[User] He lives on the edge of failure at every minute but doesn’t give up. He’s a great model, I think, for a lot of people. The challenges are tough, but they’re exciting. You may fail, but don’t not go after them. That’s what’s exciting to me.

[Assistant] What do you think has been the most rewarding part of you working in your career? What is something that you’re most proud of that you were able to accomplish.

[User] It was a small thing—not a small thing, but it was exciting at the time. A guy had invented a way for airplanes to maneuver in the terminal areas—a system he put together that used the radars of the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. He got a hold of a congressman who wanted to get his job and research funded. The FAA didn’t want to do it, so Congress gave the job to NASA to resolve. I ended up running that little job. It was fascinating, dealing both with the FAA and the private industry and Congress and coming to what was a reasonable resolution of the job. It’s those kinds of jobs that I don’t forget. I think the Aerospace Plane Program—the part I played on that was exciting. All of the way back to the optical communications job, to do something, work at it, and bring it to some conclusion is exciting. An idea, to me, has always been exciting. To get an idea and work it—it may not work at all, but something of the creative side of you makes everything fun and worth doing.

[Assistant] It sounds like it. Is there anything else you would like to add or something else you can think of that we haven’t talked about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He lives on the edge of failure at every minute but doesn’t give up. He’s a great model, I think, for a lot of people. The challenges are tough, but they’re exciting. You may fail, but don’t not go after them. That’s what’s exciting to me.

[Assistant] What do you think has been the most rewarding part of you working in your career? What is something that you’re most proud of that you were able to accomplish.

[User] It was a small thing—not a small thing, but it was exciting at the time. A guy had invented a way for airplanes to maneuver in the terminal areas—a system he put together that used the radars of the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. He got a hold of a congressman who wanted to get his job and research funded. The FAA didn’t want to do it, so Congress gave the job to NASA to resolve. I ended up running that little job. It was fascinating, dealing both with the FAA and the private industry and Congress and coming to what was a reasonable resolution of the job. It’s those kinds of jobs that I don’t forget. I think the Aerospace Plane Program—the part I played on that was exciting. All of the way back to the optical communications job, to do something, work at it, and bring it to some conclusion is exciting. An idea, to me, has always been exciting. To get an idea and work it—it may not work at all, but something of the creative side of you makes everything fun and worth doing.

[Assistant] It sounds like it. Is there anything else you would like to add or something else you can think of that we haven’t talked about?

[User] No. I do appreciate you spending the time with the NACA and that history. You mentioned earlier the centennial or whatever it’s called.

[Assistant] Yeah, that’s coming up next year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a small thing—not a small thing, but it was exciting at the time. A guy had invented a way for airplanes to maneuver in the terminal areas—a system he put together that used the radars of the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration]. He got a hold of a congressman who wanted to get his job and research funded. The FAA didn’t want to do it, so Congress gave the job to NASA to resolve. I ended up running that little job. It was fascinating, dealing both with the FAA and the private industry and Congress and coming to what was a reasonable resolution of the job. It’s those kinds of jobs that I don’t forget. I think the Aerospace Plane Program—the part I played on that was exciting. All of the way back to the optical communications job, to do something, work at it, and bring it to some conclusion is exciting. An idea, to me, has always been exciting. To get an idea and work it—it may not work at all, but something of the creative side of you makes everything fun and worth doing.

[Assistant] It sounds like it. Is there anything else you would like to add or something else you can think of that we haven’t talked about?

[User] No. I do appreciate you spending the time with the NACA and that history. You mentioned earlier the centennial or whatever it’s called.

[Assistant] Yeah, that’s coming up next year.

[User] It’s coming up. The other thing I did enjoy doing very much, as you know, I chaired the final reunion of the NACA here at Langley. The guys called me from California and said, “We want to do one more, Duncan. Would you please chair it?” which I did. The Alumni Association was behind it. Langley was behind it. We did it and had 360 people all over the country. You were here. You got to see part of that.

[Assistant] We stopped in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I look forward to it.

[Assistant] Tell us how you became involved with Orion.

[User] I worked with Brian Anderson on X-38; Brian was the first Program Manager for MPCV [Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle], CEV [Crew Exploration Vehicle] back then. He asked me to come work for him and lead up the Flight Test Office, so that’s how I got involved.

[Assistant] What year was that?

[User] That was in 2005.

[Assistant] What sort of things were you involved in at that point? It was a fairly new Program in 2005.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked with Brian Anderson on X-38; Brian was the first Program Manager for MPCV [Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle], CEV [Crew Exploration Vehicle] back then. He asked me to come work for him and lead up the Flight Test Office, so that’s how I got involved.

[Assistant] What year was that?

[User] That was in 2005.

[Assistant] What sort of things were you involved in at that point? It was a fairly new Program in 2005.

[User] I was involved in the Source Board. We went ahead and downselected for the contractors. Then what I was asked to do was work on the abort flight testing, so I was not only on the Source Board but also was asked to lead up the abort flight test. Back then we had six abort tests on the books, so that was really what we did, lay out the plan on how we’d get all the abort tests that we felt were necessary to be done at the time to certify the design. We used Apollo as the basis for that and laid out the initial plan based on what Apollo had done for their abort system. That’s where it all started.

[Assistant] When you refer to the abort system, you’re referring to the Launch Abort System [LAS], the rocket on top of the [vehicle]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in 2005.

[Assistant] What sort of things were you involved in at that point? It was a fairly new Program in 2005.

[User] I was involved in the Source Board. We went ahead and downselected for the contractors. Then what I was asked to do was work on the abort flight testing, so I was not only on the Source Board but also was asked to lead up the abort flight test. Back then we had six abort tests on the books, so that was really what we did, lay out the plan on how we’d get all the abort tests that we felt were necessary to be done at the time to certify the design. We used Apollo as the basis for that and laid out the initial plan based on what Apollo had done for their abort system. That’s where it all started.

[Assistant] When you refer to the abort system, you’re referring to the Launch Abort System [LAS], the rocket on top of the [vehicle]?

[User] Yes, the Launch Abort System.

[Assistant] How robust was the design at that point when you started working on CEV? Have things changed dramatically since 2005?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved in the Source Board. We went ahead and downselected for the contractors. Then what I was asked to do was work on the abort flight testing, so I was not only on the Source Board but also was asked to lead up the abort flight test. Back then we had six abort tests on the books, so that was really what we did, lay out the plan on how we’d get all the abort tests that we felt were necessary to be done at the time to certify the design. We used Apollo as the basis for that and laid out the initial plan based on what Apollo had done for their abort system. That’s where it all started.

[Assistant] When you refer to the abort system, you’re referring to the Launch Abort System [LAS], the rocket on top of the [vehicle]?

[User] Yes, the Launch Abort System.

[Assistant] How robust was the design at that point when you started working on CEV? Have things changed dramatically since 2005?

[User] That’s a tough question for me to answer: how robust the design was. The design has evolved over the last what, 11 years or so, 10 years. We had a boost protective cover back then, for example, like they did on Apollo. Then they wanted to carry I think it was the docking mechanism to the Space Station, so they actually extended the area underneath the Launch Abort System. That’s when the Ogives came in to have a larger volume in which to carry a docking system to the Station.\n\n As far as how robust, the vehicle has always had the mission to go on to Moon, Mars, and beyond. From the get-go it was designed to do that mission. It’s not like the requirements for the mission have evolved. How you define how robust it is, I can’t answer that.

[Assistant] You said you took a look at Apollo to come up with these ideas for these abort tests. How did you stray from their original plans? Were there differences, or was it very similar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Mark [S.] Geyer, myself, we all went out to WSMR [White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico] at the time, which is where the team was, because the crew module and the Launch Abort System were physically at White Sands Missile Range when the announcement was made in February. We basically wanted to reassure the team that we were still going to continue to fund the test and conduct the test even though Constellation was canceled that February. Basically we told the team just to keep working. We still planned to do this test. Just wanted to make sure people knew that.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day? You’d been working on this for so long. What sort of feelings did you have as things went smoothly?

[User] You mean on the launch day?

[Assistant] On the launch day, yes, for Pad Abort 1.

[User] I was just amazed that it went so well. It’s a big relief. You work that many years and you work so hard. You just sit there and hope everything goes the way it’s supposed to. I was Test Director, and I just remember sitting there watching the video. Other than the data, which everybody was looking at, it was the only thing I had to see was it going like it was supposed to. Just seeing all those motors firing and seeing the attitude control motor working, it’s like, “Well, didn’t blow up, and we’re flying, so that was just such a great feeling.” To find out that it did everything it was supposed to, achieved all its objectives. It was just a great day.

[Assistant] There wasn’t a decision to move forward on MPCV till May of 2011 by the NASA Administrator. What were things like around here? What sort of projects were you guys working on? Were you just continuing your work? Congress was certainly battling to keep Orion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they had the actual feed from the launch site on the ship. We were all down in the chapel. That’s where they congregated. We sat there and listened to the countdown. Of course the first day it didn’t launch, it scrubbed. It’s like oh. It’s actually fortunate that it didn’t, because the weather on that day was not very good for a helicopter. We had a lot of low-hanging clouds. It’s overcast. We probably wouldn’t have got what we actually ended up getting if we’d gone on the 4th of December. By delaying a day, the weather the next day was just beautiful. That allowed us to get some really good shots.

[Assistant] Were you in the helicopter for the recovery?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share those details with us?

[User] Yes. What better place could you be, talk about a front row seat. Yes, it was pretty amazing. We could actually see the imagery in the back. They had a repeater of the display that the pilots were looking at. We could actually see them acquire the crew module and then see all the chutes deploy. It was really something to see all the main chutes come out and actually look out there and see it coming down.\n\n To actually fly up to it just after it splashed down, be the first people there to actually see it, that was pretty neat. The crew module came within four miles of where we were. It’s probably the closest anybody’s ever been to a vehicle coming back from space.

[Assistant] There were some problems with the uprighting system. Was that a challenge for retrieval?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. By far the most rewarding was PA-1, just because we had total responsibility for making it happen and executing it.

[Assistant] Mark Geyer has said that Orion learned to persevere. Would you agree with that statement?

[User] Yes, definitely. Just to persevere in terms of the political environment, the funding environment. All the things. Compromises that had to be made in order to continue to move ahead. Personally, it’s my opinion that it’s a very inefficient way to do things. We’re going to spend a heck of a lot more money in the long run because of those compromises that we had to make. When I say compromises, let me just give you an example.\n\n On the EFT-1 reaction control systems, the material they used to hold those reaction control system nozzles wouldn’t survive abort loads. Basically we had to certify that design for EFT-1 from a loads standpoint. For EM-2 where we could do an abort with crew on board, now you got to recertify that whole system there because of a new material. You have to use a different material, now you have to go back and test it again.\n\n That happened on quite a few components on EFT-1. They didn’t qualify it to abort loads. You go certify it to what loads you expect to have on EFT-1, now you got to come back and recertify all those and test them to abort loads. If you’d just been given enough money to certify everything to abort loads, it’d be done with. But now you’ve got to test things multiple times. It’s very inefficient.

[Assistant] NASA has an agreement with ESA [European Space Agency] to build the ESM [European Service Module]. Has that impacted your Office in any way in testing?

[User] No, because we don’t use their hardware for AA-2. There isn’t anything really that we touch, no software, no hardware. We’re not involved in that.

[Assistant] Knock on wood. Unless you have anything else you’d like to talk about, I think we’ve covered most of the topics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good afternoon.

[Assistant] So tell us why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] I was very interested in traveling and working abroad, and I was interested in I eventually having a career in related to economic development. I was very interested in Africa. I thought about applying to various other jobs, like with some of the nonprofits or NGOs, and they weren't really interested in taking someone right out of college. But the Peace Corps, of course, was.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, gosh, I'm sure I've been aware of the Peace Corps. Most of you know, most of my life, certainly from high school. I remember, you know, hearing about it, hearing about John F. Kennedy's famous speech in Ann Arbor. I'm originally from Michigan, so I was from Grand Rapids, Michigan. And when I was an undergrad at Johns Hopkins University, just near here. I took international studies and I, you know, talk to the various counselors and professors telling them that I wanted to have a career related to economic development. And sort of my main faculty advisor suggested the Peace Corps as it was probably being the best way to get started.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when you were accepted?