[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. In Queche, you know, being in a situation like that, you do pick up some of the language a little bit. And I found out my nickname was the Red Man because I would tend to blush easily.

[Assistant] And they probably enjoyed making you do that. So if you had it to do over again, would you have done anything differently?

[User] No, but it fundamentally changed my life, that experience.

[Assistant] How did it change your life?

[User] Well, for one thing, I found Martha and I will be celebrating our forty-fifth wedding anniversary this October.

[Assistant] So you met her while you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but it fundamentally changed my life, that experience.

[Assistant] How did it change your life?

[User] Well, for one thing, I found Martha and I will be celebrating our forty-fifth wedding anniversary this October.

[Assistant] So you met her while you were in?

[User] Yes, that's one fundamental change.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty significant.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for one thing, I found Martha and I will be celebrating our forty-fifth wedding anniversary this October.

[Assistant] So you met her while you were in?

[User] Yes, that's one fundamental change.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty significant.

[User] If I came back and completed my agricultural degree. I actually received a degree I once spent went back to our training site in Arizona, the Arizona State University, went there a couple of years. That was very pleasant being out there. And then I got a lot of pressure to come back to Ohio. So I went back and actually got my degree at Ohio State University and 21 years later, I got another degree in accounting. I am a CPA today.

[Assistant] I was going to say, I forgot to ask you in the beginning what you were doing today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's one fundamental change.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty significant.

[User] If I came back and completed my agricultural degree. I actually received a degree I once spent went back to our training site in Arizona, the Arizona State University, went there a couple of years. That was very pleasant being out there. And then I got a lot of pressure to come back to Ohio. So I went back and actually got my degree at Ohio State University and 21 years later, I got another degree in accounting. I am a CPA today.

[Assistant] I was going to say, I forgot to ask you in the beginning what you were doing today.

[User] Well, actually, I'm working for human services in our county as the accountant, and a job in family services is the proper name.

[Assistant] Well, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I came back and completed my agricultural degree. I actually received a degree I once spent went back to our training site in Arizona, the Arizona State University, went there a couple of years. That was very pleasant being out there. And then I got a lot of pressure to come back to Ohio. So I went back and actually got my degree at Ohio State University and 21 years later, I got another degree in accounting. I am a CPA today.

[Assistant] I was going to say, I forgot to ask you in the beginning what you were doing today.

[User] Well, actually, I'm working for human services in our county as the accountant, and a job in family services is the proper name.

[Assistant] Well, do you think?

[User] That's just a sideline. My major occupation is still the farm.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think that, um, that well, the goals that they had listed or was the technical assistance and to promote better understanding of the U.S. and also better understanding of other people by Americans, how do you think all those goals, you ended up with all those goals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, I'm working for human services in our county as the accountant, and a job in family services is the proper name.

[Assistant] Well, do you think?

[User] That's just a sideline. My major occupation is still the farm.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think that, um, that well, the goals that they had listed or was the technical assistance and to promote better understanding of the U.S. and also better understanding of other people by Americans, how do you think all those goals, you ended up with all those goals?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] You did all of them. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia since you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's just a sideline. My major occupation is still the farm.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think that, um, that well, the goals that they had listed or was the technical assistance and to promote better understanding of the U.S. and also better understanding of other people by Americans, how do you think all those goals, you ended up with all those goals?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] You did all of them. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia since you were there?

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, my sister in law lives in Bolivia. My wife has one sister. There's five of those children. Her mother had five children. Only two have lived. My wife and her sister. And I have very strong contacts yet.

[Assistant] Do you think, well, that really was a major change for you, because that's never changed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] You did all of them. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia since you were there?

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, my sister in law lives in Bolivia. My wife has one sister. There's five of those children. Her mother had five children. Only two have lived. My wife and her sister. And I have very strong contacts yet.

[Assistant] Do you think, well, that really was a major change for you, because that's never changed.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Big time. Yeah. Uh, have you or you said that you're, the effect of the Peace Corps service was a change of career. What were you going to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, my sister in law lives in Bolivia. My wife has one sister. There's five of those children. Her mother had five children. Only two have lived. My wife and her sister. And I have very strong contacts yet.

[Assistant] Do you think, well, that really was a major change for you, because that's never changed.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Big time. Yeah. Uh, have you or you said that you're, the effect of the Peace Corps service was a change of career. What were you going to do?

[User] No, I didn't say that. I came back and I mean, I was.

[Assistant] You just came back and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Big time. Yeah. Uh, have you or you said that you're, the effect of the Peace Corps service was a change of career. What were you going to do?

[User] No, I didn't say that. I came back and I mean, I was.

[Assistant] You just came back and.

[User] I completed my agricultural degree. Well, yes. I mean, initially I started out, but the first year of college is just general anyway. And it oriented me. I said, well, you know, why be unnatural about this? My training, my inclination is agricultural. I'll stay with that. Went and got my agricultural degree at Hofsted University, entered graduate school for two quarters, dropped out, went to Argentina. We actually ranched in Argentina for three years.

[Assistant] Oh, in Argentina.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't say that. I came back and I mean, I was.

[Assistant] You just came back and.

[User] I completed my agricultural degree. Well, yes. I mean, initially I started out, but the first year of college is just general anyway. And it oriented me. I said, well, you know, why be unnatural about this? My training, my inclination is agricultural. I'll stay with that. Went and got my agricultural degree at Hofsted University, entered graduate school for two quarters, dropped out, went to Argentina. We actually ranched in Argentina for three years.

[Assistant] Oh, in Argentina.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I completed my agricultural degree. Well, yes. I mean, initially I started out, but the first year of college is just general anyway. And it oriented me. I said, well, you know, why be unnatural about this? My training, my inclination is agricultural. I'll stay with that. Went and got my agricultural degree at Hofsted University, entered graduate school for two quarters, dropped out, went to Argentina. We actually ranched in Argentina for three years.

[Assistant] Oh, in Argentina.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how was that?

[User] Oh, Argentina's pleasant.

[Assistant] Do you think that being in the Peace Corps helped you in later years to do the things that you ended up doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how was that?

[User] Oh, Argentina's pleasant.

[Assistant] Do you think that being in the Peace Corps helped you in later years to do the things that you ended up doing?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] How particularly what did you gain from that experience? That seems to be useful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Argentina's pleasant.

[Assistant] Do you think that being in the Peace Corps helped you in later years to do the things that you ended up doing?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] How particularly what did you gain from that experience? That seems to be useful.

[User] What did I gain? Yeah, it's such a big question. I don't know where to start.

[Assistant] You start little.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What did I gain? Yeah, it's such a big question. I don't know where to start.

[Assistant] You start little.

[User] Today, for example, in the grain markets that we have. People come and ask me, what is the situation in Argentina? Last year, they had a heavy drought, I mean, a very severe drought, and as a result, our soybean prices have increased considerably. And I'm still asked my opinion on conditions.

[Assistant] In Bolivia?

[User] Bolivia is not an agricultural and a large agricultural producer. I mean, it's so isolated with the mountains along the Andean mountains on the west side of the country. And the big swamp headquarters headlands of the Amazon on the other. It's still a very insular country there. For the most part, they are self-sufficient today. That's not true when we went. They had to import a lot of food. But today they actually do have a slight exportable agricultural surplus. But that could change.

[Assistant] Well, that's. Is there anything else that you think of that we haven't talked about that, that you would like to add about the experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Today, for example, in the grain markets that we have. People come and ask me, what is the situation in Argentina? Last year, they had a heavy drought, I mean, a very severe drought, and as a result, our soybean prices have increased considerably. And I'm still asked my opinion on conditions.

[Assistant] In Bolivia?

[User] Bolivia is not an agricultural and a large agricultural producer. I mean, it's so isolated with the mountains along the Andean mountains on the west side of the country. And the big swamp headquarters headlands of the Amazon on the other. It's still a very insular country there. For the most part, they are self-sufficient today. That's not true when we went. They had to import a lot of food. But today they actually do have a slight exportable agricultural surplus. But that could change.

[Assistant] Well, that's. Is there anything else that you think of that we haven't talked about that, that you would like to add about the experience?

[User] Well, the time that we allotted is nearly up, and I probably talked enough.

[Assistant] No, if you like to say anything more that’s fine. Whatever, otherwise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bolivia is not an agricultural and a large agricultural producer. I mean, it's so isolated with the mountains along the Andean mountains on the west side of the country. And the big swamp headquarters headlands of the Amazon on the other. It's still a very insular country there. For the most part, they are self-sufficient today. That's not true when we went. They had to import a lot of food. But today they actually do have a slight exportable agricultural surplus. But that could change.

[Assistant] Well, that's. Is there anything else that you think of that we haven't talked about that, that you would like to add about the experience?

[User] Well, the time that we allotted is nearly up, and I probably talked enough.

[Assistant] No, if you like to say anything more that’s fine. Whatever, otherwise.

[User] Well, I follow the situation right now, and as you know, the present president is the first Native American president ever elected and he won with a plurality. That is something. I remember when I was out Arizona State University, one of my professors asking me, because at that time when I left Bolivia, approximately 90 percent of the population was pureblood Incan, Quecha, Aymara. And only and maybe two or three percent of the population, maybe as high as seven percent, was what you would call European. And the rest was a mixed blood. And I responded to him, what's the future of Bolivia? And I responded to him, I said at that time, I believe the native culture will take over. And this is what we're seeing today. I mean, they have elected a bicameral legislature, which is for the most part, Native American. They have a Native American president who until very recently was head of the Coca Growers Association. I have some views on that also. You will never stop, you will never stop coca cultivation in Bolivia. And the State Department officials that try to do this are just wasting our money. I mean, that's the home of coca.

[Assistant] Part of their culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in the morning. I remember we were getting up, getting ready to go to training. In the Peace Corps, we always had to run a mile every morning at training before we started, at least out in Albuquerque. So we just got done with that. We're coming in to get breakfast and I can't remember the timing, but it was all over the news that Kennedy had been shot. And so everything kind of went on hold for the morning. And I can't remember all the time exactly when we heard he died. But we were in the student union area there at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque.

[Assistant] I'm curious, going back a minute. Initially, you were in this program for Nigeria that turned out to be teachers. Then when you were accepted to this one with architects in Colombia, was there any hesitation or elation? What was your reaction?

[User] Colombia sounded fine. Actually, I figured that I'd get to learn Spanish, which was a lot more useful in the United States than the languages in Nigeria. I can't remember what they're called, but they were three different languages there. And I think I came out with about four words at one point that I can remember. I can't remember any of them now. So I was excited about that.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your family and friends?

[User] I think my parents, my father and stepfather said, well, I guess that's what you want to do, that's OK. Kind of stayed out. He didn't really give me much of an opinion one way or the other. I think he was just kind of thrilled that his son was out of college and the tuition bills had stopped. He was finally paying his own way. So I didn't get much reaction from that at all. I just was glad I had an assignment and some place to go, and it looked like it was going to move ahead.

[Assistant] How large was your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Colombia sounded fine. Actually, I figured that I'd get to learn Spanish, which was a lot more useful in the United States than the languages in Nigeria. I can't remember what they're called, but they were three different languages there. And I think I came out with about four words at one point that I can remember. I can't remember any of them now. So I was excited about that.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your family and friends?

[User] I think my parents, my father and stepfather said, well, I guess that's what you want to do, that's OK. Kind of stayed out. He didn't really give me much of an opinion one way or the other. I think he was just kind of thrilled that his son was out of college and the tuition bills had stopped. He was finally paying his own way. So I didn't get much reaction from that at all. I just was glad I had an assignment and some place to go, and it looked like it was going to move ahead.

[Assistant] How large was your group?

[User] I think that we were 60 or 70 people.

[Assistant] What was the mix? There were seven architects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my parents, my father and stepfather said, well, I guess that's what you want to do, that's OK. Kind of stayed out. He didn't really give me much of an opinion one way or the other. I think he was just kind of thrilled that his son was out of college and the tuition bills had stopped. He was finally paying his own way. So I didn't get much reaction from that at all. I just was glad I had an assignment and some place to go, and it looked like it was going to move ahead.

[Assistant] How large was your group?

[User] I think that we were 60 or 70 people.

[Assistant] What was the mix? There were seven architects?

[User] No, no. There were seven architects in the Nigeria program. I can't recall how many architects, if any. I may have been the only architect that we had in the program. Most of it was community development types of folks that ended up being scattered all over Colombia. As I remember, about two-thirds of us ended up going there from the number that started.

[Assistant] And what was a typical training day like? You mentioned starting off with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's mostly Native Americans, a lot of Native Americans. I think it's on the edge of one of the reservations, I can't recall. I haven't been, I've been back through there once about five or six years ago. To get from one part of Colorado to the other, the only way you can get there is to go down into New Mexico and Chama and come back up, which I guess is why the railroad went that way.

[Assistant] Any particular friendships that formed in the training?

[User] Well, the only one I've really, it actually wasn't from training, was Dominick Bresage, and I was best man at his wedding. There was one guy that actually dropped out of training that lives here in Grand Rapids that I met with once. I've never been able to keep that connection going.

[Assistant] Now was the selection process an issue for yourself? Were you nervous about being selected out?

[User] I think we're all nervous about that. I mean, it was probably like the selection Sunday for the NCAA tournament. You know, you kind of see it. Because if they called your name, that was bad news, as I recall. And I got that call when I was with the end of the Nigeria program because they concluded that being a school teacher was not one, that was not my calling. So I had to go down and didn't go. And obviously it was a huge disappointment, but I think in hindsight, they did me a real favor. I would not have done a very good job of teaching.

[Assistant] So then after training, you went back home and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the only one I've really, it actually wasn't from training, was Dominick Bresage, and I was best man at his wedding. There was one guy that actually dropped out of training that lives here in Grand Rapids that I met with once. I've never been able to keep that connection going.

[Assistant] Now was the selection process an issue for yourself? Were you nervous about being selected out?

[User] I think we're all nervous about that. I mean, it was probably like the selection Sunday for the NCAA tournament. You know, you kind of see it. Because if they called your name, that was bad news, as I recall. And I got that call when I was with the end of the Nigeria program because they concluded that being a school teacher was not one, that was not my calling. So I had to go down and didn't go. And obviously it was a huge disappointment, but I think in hindsight, they did me a real favor. I would not have done a very good job of teaching.

[Assistant] So then after training, you went back home and?

[User] Went back home and sort of waited for a call, which they never call. I started, graduated from college in June and started almost immediately in the Peace Corps training program at Barnard College in Columbia, in New York. And then about the first part of September, they concluded that I wasn't, that they didn't have any architects or architectural slots in Nigeria, and they were going to put me back in the hopper to get reselected. But I pretty much had an idea that, assuming that some program came up that had some reasonable opportunity for an architect, that I was going to get a chance. And that started training in, oh it was probably November or early December, and we finished up in February. Went to Colombia in, if I remember the dates correctly, in February, and that would be of '64.

[Assistant] Now, how long were you in the training program for Nigeria would you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we're all nervous about that. I mean, it was probably like the selection Sunday for the NCAA tournament. You know, you kind of see it. Because if they called your name, that was bad news, as I recall. And I got that call when I was with the end of the Nigeria program because they concluded that being a school teacher was not one, that was not my calling. So I had to go down and didn't go. And obviously it was a huge disappointment, but I think in hindsight, they did me a real favor. I would not have done a very good job of teaching.

[Assistant] So then after training, you went back home and?

[User] Went back home and sort of waited for a call, which they never call. I started, graduated from college in June and started almost immediately in the Peace Corps training program at Barnard College in Columbia, in New York. And then about the first part of September, they concluded that I wasn't, that they didn't have any architects or architectural slots in Nigeria, and they were going to put me back in the hopper to get reselected. But I pretty much had an idea that, assuming that some program came up that had some reasonable opportunity for an architect, that I was going to get a chance. And that started training in, oh it was probably November or early December, and we finished up in February. Went to Colombia in, if I remember the dates correctly, in February, and that would be of '64.

[Assistant] Now, how long were you in the training program for Nigeria would you say?

[User] I would say two and a half months. It was right up to close to the end.

[Assistant] What were some similarities or differences between those two training programs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Went back home and sort of waited for a call, which they never call. I started, graduated from college in June and started almost immediately in the Peace Corps training program at Barnard College in Columbia, in New York. And then about the first part of September, they concluded that I wasn't, that they didn't have any architects or architectural slots in Nigeria, and they were going to put me back in the hopper to get reselected. But I pretty much had an idea that, assuming that some program came up that had some reasonable opportunity for an architect, that I was going to get a chance. And that started training in, oh it was probably November or early December, and we finished up in February. Went to Colombia in, if I remember the dates correctly, in February, and that would be of '64.

[Assistant] Now, how long were you in the training program for Nigeria would you say?

[User] I would say two and a half months. It was right up to close to the end.

[Assistant] What were some similarities or differences between those two training programs?

[User] Well, first of all, it's a whole. They didn't really, you know, a lot of the folks in Nigeria were teaching English. That was primarily what they were doing. And they gave you a little smattering of Igbo and Yoruba and all the rest of the languages, but they didn't really try to teach you those languages. They're extremely difficult. They're tonal languages and have no relationship at all to anything we hear here in the United States. For Colombia, it was essential that you speak at least some Spanish or you were not going to be able to do anything. So that was probably the critical skill that they wanted to make sure you left with.

[Assistant] Did you have the Outward Bound kind of thing in the Nigerian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say two and a half months. It was right up to close to the end.

[Assistant] What were some similarities or differences between those two training programs?

[User] Well, first of all, it's a whole. They didn't really, you know, a lot of the folks in Nigeria were teaching English. That was primarily what they were doing. And they gave you a little smattering of Igbo and Yoruba and all the rest of the languages, but they didn't really try to teach you those languages. They're extremely difficult. They're tonal languages and have no relationship at all to anything we hear here in the United States. For Colombia, it was essential that you speak at least some Spanish or you were not going to be able to do anything. So that was probably the critical skill that they wanted to make sure you left with.

[Assistant] Did you have the Outward Bound kind of thing in the Nigerian?

[User] Yeah, not in Nigeria. We did it for Colombia. They had the rope courses and the other things that are. Actually, I went in the Army after I went in the Peace Corps and the Peace Corps training was physically more rigorous than the Army training.

[Assistant] Say a little bit more about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, first of all, it's a whole. They didn't really, you know, a lot of the folks in Nigeria were teaching English. That was primarily what they were doing. And they gave you a little smattering of Igbo and Yoruba and all the rest of the languages, but they didn't really try to teach you those languages. They're extremely difficult. They're tonal languages and have no relationship at all to anything we hear here in the United States. For Colombia, it was essential that you speak at least some Spanish or you were not going to be able to do anything. So that was probably the critical skill that they wanted to make sure you left with.

[Assistant] Did you have the Outward Bound kind of thing in the Nigerian?

[User] Yeah, not in Nigeria. We did it for Colombia. They had the rope courses and the other things that are. Actually, I went in the Army after I went in the Peace Corps and the Peace Corps training was physically more rigorous than the Army training.

[Assistant] Say a little bit more about that.

[User] Well, after I came back from Colombia, that was December of 1965, and I was 1A in the draft. And most folks thought that if you were in the Peace Corps that got you out of the Army and that is not true. It was just a deferment. And I was 25 years old, so I ended up enlisting for OCS. If I was going to be drafted, I wasn't going to do KP for the rest of my life. And then as it turned out, after I got in the Army, they got rid of KP. I thought that was one of the big reasons I decided I was going to go to Officer Candidate School was to get out of KP. But I went through basic training at Fort Leonard, where they went through Officer Candidate School in Fort Belvoir. Ended up spending a year in Vietnam and coming back.

[Assistant] Well, back to how was the training more rigorous, you said, for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, not in Nigeria. We did it for Colombia. They had the rope courses and the other things that are. Actually, I went in the Army after I went in the Peace Corps and the Peace Corps training was physically more rigorous than the Army training.

[Assistant] Say a little bit more about that.

[User] Well, after I came back from Colombia, that was December of 1965, and I was 1A in the draft. And most folks thought that if you were in the Peace Corps that got you out of the Army and that is not true. It was just a deferment. And I was 25 years old, so I ended up enlisting for OCS. If I was going to be drafted, I wasn't going to do KP for the rest of my life. And then as it turned out, after I got in the Army, they got rid of KP. I thought that was one of the big reasons I decided I was going to go to Officer Candidate School was to get out of KP. But I went through basic training at Fort Leonard, where they went through Officer Candidate School in Fort Belvoir. Ended up spending a year in Vietnam and coming back.

[Assistant] Well, back to how was the training more rigorous, you said, for the Peace Corps?

[User] Because the Army didn't really give you that one mile run every morning. You didn't have a whole series of rigorous things. They didn't have, in fact, I had. By the time I got to the. The Army did put me through some of the Outward Bound stuff in the Officer Candidate School, but basic training is. Training in the Peace Corps was physically a little more rigorous than basic training in the Army. At least that's the way I remember it.

[Assistant] Then when you went to Colombia, what's your first impression as you got off the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, after I came back from Colombia, that was December of 1965, and I was 1A in the draft. And most folks thought that if you were in the Peace Corps that got you out of the Army and that is not true. It was just a deferment. And I was 25 years old, so I ended up enlisting for OCS. If I was going to be drafted, I wasn't going to do KP for the rest of my life. And then as it turned out, after I got in the Army, they got rid of KP. I thought that was one of the big reasons I decided I was going to go to Officer Candidate School was to get out of KP. But I went through basic training at Fort Leonard, where they went through Officer Candidate School in Fort Belvoir. Ended up spending a year in Vietnam and coming back.

[Assistant] Well, back to how was the training more rigorous, you said, for the Peace Corps?

[User] Because the Army didn't really give you that one mile run every morning. You didn't have a whole series of rigorous things. They didn't have, in fact, I had. By the time I got to the. The Army did put me through some of the Outward Bound stuff in the Officer Candidate School, but basic training is. Training in the Peace Corps was physically a little more rigorous than basic training in the Army. At least that's the way I remember it.

[Assistant] Then when you went to Colombia, what's your first impression as you got off the plane?

[User] We flew into Bogota and it was cold as I recall. I was surprised because it was kind of. Bogota, as I remember, was cloudy and damp. In fact, the weather was similar to Ithaca, New York, which I felt was odd. This was supposed to be near the equator. What's going on? But it was, we stayed there for a couple of days and then they shipped us out to the various parts of the country we're going to.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't have in-country training for any span of time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the Army didn't really give you that one mile run every morning. You didn't have a whole series of rigorous things. They didn't have, in fact, I had. By the time I got to the. The Army did put me through some of the Outward Bound stuff in the Officer Candidate School, but basic training is. Training in the Peace Corps was physically a little more rigorous than basic training in the Army. At least that's the way I remember it.

[Assistant] Then when you went to Colombia, what's your first impression as you got off the plane?

[User] We flew into Bogota and it was cold as I recall. I was surprised because it was kind of. Bogota, as I remember, was cloudy and damp. In fact, the weather was similar to Ithaca, New York, which I felt was odd. This was supposed to be near the equator. What's going on? But it was, we stayed there for a couple of days and then they shipped us out to the various parts of the country we're going to.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't have in-country training for any span of time?

[User] No, not that I remember. And I was assigned to be initially to a little small town outside of Cali called Pradera.

[Assistant] About how far of a trip was that from Bogota?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not that I remember. And I was assigned to be initially to a little small town outside of Cali called Pradera.

[Assistant] About how far of a trip was that from Bogota?

[User] Oh, we had to fly I think to Cali as I remember and then took a. Because Cali, that's a couple of mountain valleys away. And there were still in the mountains in the, when I was in Colombia, the bandits in the mountains were financed by Fidel. And so Colombia had been having a civil war since 1948, and they'd killed like 300,000 people in Colombia. And they'd finally come to a sort of a semi truce where they alternated the presidency between the liberals and conservatives. Every four years they would switch back regardless of what the vote was, they could switch back, because that was their way of keeping each other from shooting each other. Obviously, that's broken down on the simple thing. But so going up to the mountains wasn't always all that safe, so people would tend to fly over and then take busses. And I can't recall how I got there. I had to go through another town I remember. And I can't remember if anybody met me at the airport or not and I got a ride, that I don't recall. But I worked initially with a couple of community development volunteers, Dominick Bresage, I was best man at his wedding, was one. And a guy named Steve Chestnut was the other. He was from Boston I think.

[Assistant] Now you flew into this town and then you somehow got to your site. About how far from the major town?

[User] Maybe 30 or 40 miles. My guess is that now Pradera is almost part of Cali, because Cali's grown. When I was there, was about three or four hundred thousand people and now it's two million. It's grown dramatically.

[Assistant] And the town that you were assigned to, about how big was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we had to fly I think to Cali as I remember and then took a. Because Cali, that's a couple of mountain valleys away. And there were still in the mountains in the, when I was in Colombia, the bandits in the mountains were financed by Fidel. And so Colombia had been having a civil war since 1948, and they'd killed like 300,000 people in Colombia. And they'd finally come to a sort of a semi truce where they alternated the presidency between the liberals and conservatives. Every four years they would switch back regardless of what the vote was, they could switch back, because that was their way of keeping each other from shooting each other. Obviously, that's broken down on the simple thing. But so going up to the mountains wasn't always all that safe, so people would tend to fly over and then take busses. And I can't recall how I got there. I had to go through another town I remember. And I can't remember if anybody met me at the airport or not and I got a ride, that I don't recall. But I worked initially with a couple of community development volunteers, Dominick Bresage, I was best man at his wedding, was one. And a guy named Steve Chestnut was the other. He was from Boston I think.

[Assistant] Now you flew into this town and then you somehow got to your site. About how far from the major town?

[User] Maybe 30 or 40 miles. My guess is that now Pradera is almost part of Cali, because Cali's grown. When I was there, was about three or four hundred thousand people and now it's two million. It's grown dramatically.

[Assistant] And the town that you were assigned to, about how big was that?

[User] Oh, that's maybe three or four thousand people, something like that. They had a town square, Catholic Church, movie theater, a couple of stores, marketplace. And then there's a series of houses. The agricultural elements as well.

[Assistant] Now I'm trying to get a picture of the size that would be. Would that be about the size of Taos proper in a sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe 30 or 40 miles. My guess is that now Pradera is almost part of Cali, because Cali's grown. When I was there, was about three or four hundred thousand people and now it's two million. It's grown dramatically.

[Assistant] And the town that you were assigned to, about how big was that?

[User] Oh, that's maybe three or four thousand people, something like that. They had a town square, Catholic Church, movie theater, a couple of stores, marketplace. And then there's a series of houses. The agricultural elements as well.

[Assistant] Now I'm trying to get a picture of the size that would be. Would that be about the size of Taos proper in a sense?

[User] Well, probably physically, yes, my guess is that Taos may have had. Oh, maybe about the same size. I've never thought about that.

[Assistant] And where did you live then when you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that's maybe three or four thousand people, something like that. They had a town square, Catholic Church, movie theater, a couple of stores, marketplace. And then there's a series of houses. The agricultural elements as well.

[Assistant] Now I'm trying to get a picture of the size that would be. Would that be about the size of Taos proper in a sense?

[User] Well, probably physically, yes, my guess is that Taos may have had. Oh, maybe about the same size. I've never thought about that.

[Assistant] And where did you live then when you were in?

[User] We lived in a house that I shared with the other two Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] So there were the three of you in that area that were volunteers. Any other Americans or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, probably physically, yes, my guess is that Taos may have had. Oh, maybe about the same size. I've never thought about that.

[Assistant] And where did you live then when you were in?

[User] We lived in a house that I shared with the other two Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] So there were the three of you in that area that were volunteers. Any other Americans or?

[User] Well, there weren't any other Americans in Pradera that I remember. We had a cooperative volunteer. They were trained to go down and try and set up fishing and agricultural cooperatives among the Colombians so that they could sell their products and market their products. How do we get the campesinos to make some money out of this? And that guy's name was Steve Diplo, and he would come in, oh, about every other week. And the goal was to try and organize the farmers into a cooperative so that they could market their products more effectively, either agricultural products in Cali and the larger cities or handicraft products in the United States. And they got into some of these carved, uh, elements that they would bundle up together and arrange for an agent to ship it to the United States.

[Assistant] Describe the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lived in a house that I shared with the other two Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] So there were the three of you in that area that were volunteers. Any other Americans or?

[User] Well, there weren't any other Americans in Pradera that I remember. We had a cooperative volunteer. They were trained to go down and try and set up fishing and agricultural cooperatives among the Colombians so that they could sell their products and market their products. How do we get the campesinos to make some money out of this? And that guy's name was Steve Diplo, and he would come in, oh, about every other week. And the goal was to try and organize the farmers into a cooperative so that they could market their products more effectively, either agricultural products in Cali and the larger cities or handicraft products in the United States. And they got into some of these carved, uh, elements that they would bundle up together and arrange for an agent to ship it to the United States.

[Assistant] Describe the house.

[User] As I remember it was a single story, had three or four bedrooms, so you'd walk right into a main living area was kind of L- shaped as I remember. There was a courtyard in the back and the outhouse was out at the far end with, I seem to recall there was a shower in there. I don't remember the rest of it. I do remember that we must have had a colony of rats living in the attic because at night they would run across the ceiling. Now they may have sounded louder than they really were, I don't know. This could have been the mouse that roared, could have been small animals, but I think they were pretty big. Because one time we saw this tail hanging out of the gutter and the tail is about that long. I said, if that's how long the tail is, the rat's got to be huge. So needless to say, we never went up in the attic. That was, we just let them stay there. We were like, we were renting that house. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Did you have any cats or anything to deal with the rats?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there weren't any other Americans in Pradera that I remember. We had a cooperative volunteer. They were trained to go down and try and set up fishing and agricultural cooperatives among the Colombians so that they could sell their products and market their products. How do we get the campesinos to make some money out of this? And that guy's name was Steve Diplo, and he would come in, oh, about every other week. And the goal was to try and organize the farmers into a cooperative so that they could market their products more effectively, either agricultural products in Cali and the larger cities or handicraft products in the United States. And they got into some of these carved, uh, elements that they would bundle up together and arrange for an agent to ship it to the United States.

[Assistant] Describe the house.

[User] As I remember it was a single story, had three or four bedrooms, so you'd walk right into a main living area was kind of L- shaped as I remember. There was a courtyard in the back and the outhouse was out at the far end with, I seem to recall there was a shower in there. I don't remember the rest of it. I do remember that we must have had a colony of rats living in the attic because at night they would run across the ceiling. Now they may have sounded louder than they really were, I don't know. This could have been the mouse that roared, could have been small animals, but I think they were pretty big. Because one time we saw this tail hanging out of the gutter and the tail is about that long. I said, if that's how long the tail is, the rat's got to be huge. So needless to say, we never went up in the attic. That was, we just let them stay there. We were like, we were renting that house. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Did you have any cats or anything to deal with the rats?

[User] I don't think so. I don't recall sort of having any pets.

[Assistant] And you had a shower in the outhouse. Did you have running water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I remember it was a single story, had three or four bedrooms, so you'd walk right into a main living area was kind of L- shaped as I remember. There was a courtyard in the back and the outhouse was out at the far end with, I seem to recall there was a shower in there. I don't remember the rest of it. I do remember that we must have had a colony of rats living in the attic because at night they would run across the ceiling. Now they may have sounded louder than they really were, I don't know. This could have been the mouse that roared, could have been small animals, but I think they were pretty big. Because one time we saw this tail hanging out of the gutter and the tail is about that long. I said, if that's how long the tail is, the rat's got to be huge. So needless to say, we never went up in the attic. That was, we just let them stay there. We were like, we were renting that house. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Did you have any cats or anything to deal with the rats?

[User] I don't think so. I don't recall sort of having any pets.

[Assistant] And you had a shower in the outhouse. Did you have running water?

[User] We had running water. But we had a saying in Pradera that I think if whatever happened. When it rained really hard, it would turn the water brown because it would be coming out of the mountains, so all the erosion was going to the water supply. And it would overwhelm the little generator they had in the town which was running off of water from the stream, and it would overrun it until the lights would go out. Well, they had a saying that if a cow pisses in the mountains, the water turns brown and the lights go out. It was not that quite that extreme, but electricity was a little bit of a mess, but both basically worked pretty closely.

[Assistant] Was it typically like a particular time in the evening from 6:00 to 9:00 or any time of day you had electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I don't recall sort of having any pets.

[Assistant] And you had a shower in the outhouse. Did you have running water?

[User] We had running water. But we had a saying in Pradera that I think if whatever happened. When it rained really hard, it would turn the water brown because it would be coming out of the mountains, so all the erosion was going to the water supply. And it would overwhelm the little generator they had in the town which was running off of water from the stream, and it would overrun it until the lights would go out. Well, they had a saying that if a cow pisses in the mountains, the water turns brown and the lights go out. It was not that quite that extreme, but electricity was a little bit of a mess, but both basically worked pretty closely.

[Assistant] Was it typically like a particular time in the evening from 6:00 to 9:00 or any time of day you had electricity?

[User] I don't remember it going off at particular times, it may have, I just don't remember. It was on most evenings, I know that.

[Assistant] So you had electric lights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had running water. But we had a saying in Pradera that I think if whatever happened. When it rained really hard, it would turn the water brown because it would be coming out of the mountains, so all the erosion was going to the water supply. And it would overwhelm the little generator they had in the town which was running off of water from the stream, and it would overrun it until the lights would go out. Well, they had a saying that if a cow pisses in the mountains, the water turns brown and the lights go out. It was not that quite that extreme, but electricity was a little bit of a mess, but both basically worked pretty closely.

[Assistant] Was it typically like a particular time in the evening from 6:00 to 9:00 or any time of day you had electricity?

[User] I don't remember it going off at particular times, it may have, I just don't remember. It was on most evenings, I know that.

[Assistant] So you had electric lights?

[User] Yes, we had electric lights.

[Assistant] What kind of kitchen facilities were there? Wood stove or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember it going off at particular times, it may have, I just don't remember. It was on most evenings, I know that.

[Assistant] So you had electric lights?

[User] Yes, we had electric lights.

[Assistant] What kind of kitchen facilities were there? Wood stove or?

[User] I'm trying to recall. I don't remember if it was wood fired or electric stove. I don't think it was gas.

[Assistant] Now did you have somebody come in and cook and do laundry or how did you work that out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had electric lights.

[Assistant] What kind of kitchen facilities were there? Wood stove or?

[User] I'm trying to recall. I don't remember if it was wood fired or electric stove. I don't think it was gas.

[Assistant] Now did you have somebody come in and cook and do laundry or how did you work that out?

[User]
I don't remember. I know we had, I suspect we had somebody come in and we had the laundry taken care of, but I think we did most of our own cooking. At least that's what I recall. Cooking, it obviously wasn't memorable enough for me to remember what that was. I think we also ate out a lot. There was always this, you know, usually as a Peace Corps volunteer, you tended to get invited to a lot of people's homes for dinner. And then I think they also tried to every once in a while, or a lot of times, to play get the gringo. So let's see if we can serve some exotic Colombian thing to see if we see, you know, how well, how macho they are. Will they eat it? You know, you stirred the chicken soup and the feet would float past. Is that going to turn you off or are you going to go ahead with this? So it was. And maybe they did it inadvertently, but it was the truth. We sure all felt like they were playing get the gringo.

And I stayed in there about two to three months, and then they got a job for me with the Department of Public Works in Cali, where I was essentially their free architect, and they could put me on any project they wanted. I'd draw plans up for schools and this library, a library up in Tuluá, which is about 16 miles north of Cali.

[Assistant] So now you were in this town with the three of you, the other two were community development did you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to recall. I don't remember if it was wood fired or electric stove. I don't think it was gas.

[Assistant] Now did you have somebody come in and cook and do laundry or how did you work that out?

[User]
I don't remember. I know we had, I suspect we had somebody come in and we had the laundry taken care of, but I think we did most of our own cooking. At least that's what I recall. Cooking, it obviously wasn't memorable enough for me to remember what that was. I think we also ate out a lot. There was always this, you know, usually as a Peace Corps volunteer, you tended to get invited to a lot of people's homes for dinner. And then I think they also tried to every once in a while, or a lot of times, to play get the gringo. So let's see if we can serve some exotic Colombian thing to see if we see, you know, how well, how macho they are. Will they eat it? You know, you stirred the chicken soup and the feet would float past. Is that going to turn you off or are you going to go ahead with this? So it was. And maybe they did it inadvertently, but it was the truth. We sure all felt like they were playing get the gringo.

And I stayed in there about two to three months, and then they got a job for me with the Department of Public Works in Cali, where I was essentially their free architect, and they could put me on any project they wanted. I'd draw plans up for schools and this library, a library up in Tuluá, which is about 16 miles north of Cali.

[Assistant] So now you were in this town with the three of you, the other two were community development did you say?

[User] Community development.

[Assistant] OK, and you were there for two or three months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I don't remember. I know we had, I suspect we had somebody come in and we had the laundry taken care of, but I think we did most of our own cooking. At least that's what I recall. Cooking, it obviously wasn't memorable enough for me to remember what that was. I think we also ate out a lot. There was always this, you know, usually as a Peace Corps volunteer, you tended to get invited to a lot of people's homes for dinner. And then I think they also tried to every once in a while, or a lot of times, to play get the gringo. So let's see if we can serve some exotic Colombian thing to see if we see, you know, how well, how macho they are. Will they eat it? You know, you stirred the chicken soup and the feet would float past. Is that going to turn you off or are you going to go ahead with this? So it was. And maybe they did it inadvertently, but it was the truth. We sure all felt like they were playing get the gringo.

And I stayed in there about two to three months, and then they got a job for me with the Department of Public Works in Cali, where I was essentially their free architect, and they could put me on any project they wanted. I'd draw plans up for schools and this library, a library up in Tuluá, which is about 16 miles north of Cali.

[Assistant] So now you were in this town with the three of you, the other two were community development did you say?

[User] Community development.

[Assistant] OK, and you were there for two or three months?

[User] Pretty much as I remember.

[Assistant] And there was no particular assignment then at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Community development.

[Assistant] OK, and you were there for two or three months?

[User] Pretty much as I remember.

[Assistant] And there was no particular assignment then at that time.

[User] I was just supporting their community development. The idea was, first of all, to help me get my language skills improved a little bit. Plus just getting to know how things worked in Colombia. And I don't think there was, they hadn't quite arranged for an opening yet. I may have been there longer than two or three months.

[Assistant] And what kinds of projects might you've got involved with initially with these? Or were they still kind of getting their sea legs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much as I remember.

[Assistant] And there was no particular assignment then at that time.

[User] I was just supporting their community development. The idea was, first of all, to help me get my language skills improved a little bit. Plus just getting to know how things worked in Colombia. And I don't think there was, they hadn't quite arranged for an opening yet. I may have been there longer than two or three months.

[Assistant] And what kinds of projects might you've got involved with initially with these? Or were they still kind of getting their sea legs?

[User] Well, they'd been there a while. They'd been there probably almost a year by the time I got there. They were one of the first Colombian groups to come in. So they've been there and maybe it was six months, I can't recall, but they'd been there long enough that they knew all the folks in town and.

[Assistant] So they did a lot to help you get integrated into the community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was just supporting their community development. The idea was, first of all, to help me get my language skills improved a little bit. Plus just getting to know how things worked in Colombia. And I don't think there was, they hadn't quite arranged for an opening yet. I may have been there longer than two or three months.

[Assistant] And what kinds of projects might you've got involved with initially with these? Or were they still kind of getting their sea legs?

[User] Well, they'd been there a while. They'd been there probably almost a year by the time I got there. They were one of the first Colombian groups to come in. So they've been there and maybe it was six months, I can't recall, but they'd been there long enough that they knew all the folks in town and.

[Assistant] So they did a lot to help you get integrated into the community.

[User] Yeah, so I got introduced to a lot of folks. But I do remember we did put on a, uh, that was right when the Beatles came in. They had a talent night at the local movie theater, and so we put on a talent show. Dominick plays, he was the only musician. He could play the accordion, and he had his accordion. So we put on his imitation of the Beatles numbers with mops on our heads. And I think we scared the Colombians. They thought that some banditos were coming and taking over the talent show. Steve Chestnut could play the guitar and I could shout, about my only talent. But that lasted about three or four months with a lot of runs up into the surrounding hills on jeeps.

[Assistant] Was it like a rainforest area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they'd been there a while. They'd been there probably almost a year by the time I got there. They were one of the first Colombian groups to come in. So they've been there and maybe it was six months, I can't recall, but they'd been there long enough that they knew all the folks in town and.

[Assistant] So they did a lot to help you get integrated into the community.

[User] Yeah, so I got introduced to a lot of folks. But I do remember we did put on a, uh, that was right when the Beatles came in. They had a talent night at the local movie theater, and so we put on a talent show. Dominick plays, he was the only musician. He could play the accordion, and he had his accordion. So we put on his imitation of the Beatles numbers with mops on our heads. And I think we scared the Colombians. They thought that some banditos were coming and taking over the talent show. Steve Chestnut could play the guitar and I could shout, about my only talent. But that lasted about three or four months with a lot of runs up into the surrounding hills on jeeps.

[Assistant] Was it like a rainforest area?

[User] No, not really. It was, well, as you got more up into the mountains, it got to the bottom. The real rainforest was down near on the way to Buenaventura where it rains 300 inches a year. And if you don't put a light bulb in your closet, your shoes will turn green overnight. Just really it just rains every day.

[Assistant] Now you were more up in the mountains. Was it a bit cooler?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so I got introduced to a lot of folks. But I do remember we did put on a, uh, that was right when the Beatles came in. They had a talent night at the local movie theater, and so we put on a talent show. Dominick plays, he was the only musician. He could play the accordion, and he had his accordion. So we put on his imitation of the Beatles numbers with mops on our heads. And I think we scared the Colombians. They thought that some banditos were coming and taking over the talent show. Steve Chestnut could play the guitar and I could shout, about my only talent. But that lasted about three or four months with a lot of runs up into the surrounding hills on jeeps.

[Assistant] Was it like a rainforest area?

[User] No, not really. It was, well, as you got more up into the mountains, it got to the bottom. The real rainforest was down near on the way to Buenaventura where it rains 300 inches a year. And if you don't put a light bulb in your closet, your shoes will turn green overnight. Just really it just rains every day.

[Assistant] Now you were more up in the mountains. Was it a bit cooler?

[User] Oh, Cali is in the Cauca River Valley, which is probably, you know, 2,000 feet or something like that. But it's only four degrees north of the equator, but it's 85 degrees all year round. Nice little breeze comes up at 4:30 in the afternoon. So you got done with whatever you're doing and go sit down at a sidewalk cafe and have a beer. We got to know a lot of guys from the Bank of London and Montreal and we convinced them that Peace Corps guys didn't make any money, so they should pay for most of the beer and that worked out pretty well. And so we really had a, it's an almost climate.

[Assistant] And now this was Cali, this wasn't your little village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. It was, well, as you got more up into the mountains, it got to the bottom. The real rainforest was down near on the way to Buenaventura where it rains 300 inches a year. And if you don't put a light bulb in your closet, your shoes will turn green overnight. Just really it just rains every day.

[Assistant] Now you were more up in the mountains. Was it a bit cooler?

[User] Oh, Cali is in the Cauca River Valley, which is probably, you know, 2,000 feet or something like that. But it's only four degrees north of the equator, but it's 85 degrees all year round. Nice little breeze comes up at 4:30 in the afternoon. So you got done with whatever you're doing and go sit down at a sidewalk cafe and have a beer. We got to know a lot of guys from the Bank of London and Montreal and we convinced them that Peace Corps guys didn't make any money, so they should pay for most of the beer and that worked out pretty well. And so we really had a, it's an almost climate.

[Assistant] And now this was Cali, this wasn't your little village?

[User] That was Cali, but you commuted back and forth, so we would go into Cali.

[Assistant] How would you get back and forth to Cali?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Cali is in the Cauca River Valley, which is probably, you know, 2,000 feet or something like that. But it's only four degrees north of the equator, but it's 85 degrees all year round. Nice little breeze comes up at 4:30 in the afternoon. So you got done with whatever you're doing and go sit down at a sidewalk cafe and have a beer. We got to know a lot of guys from the Bank of London and Montreal and we convinced them that Peace Corps guys didn't make any money, so they should pay for most of the beer and that worked out pretty well. And so we really had a, it's an almost climate.

[Assistant] And now this was Cali, this wasn't your little village?

[User] That was Cali, but you commuted back and forth, so we would go into Cali.

[Assistant] How would you get back and forth to Cali?

[User] You'd pay for one of the little busses that would come by. Or you find one of the fathers of one of your friends, or friends or people you're working with, who would drive in that day.

[Assistant] And what were the busses, like vans or big ones with chickens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was Cali, but you commuted back and forth, so we would go into Cali.

[Assistant] How would you get back and forth to Cali?

[User] You'd pay for one of the little busses that would come by. Or you find one of the fathers of one of your friends, or friends or people you're working with, who would drive in that day.

[Assistant] And what were the busses, like vans or big ones with chickens?

[User] Yeah, they had all the sorts of stuff and it was, I thought it was kind of humorous because Colombians always would fight to see who can get on the bus first. The bus would pull up and people were fighting their way on. But people would take their chickens on there. And I can't remember what it probably cost. 15 centavos or some? I think it was to ride the bus.

[Assistant] Now, if they all fought to get on, I assume you ended up standing most of the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd pay for one of the little busses that would come by. Or you find one of the fathers of one of your friends, or friends or people you're working with, who would drive in that day.

[Assistant] And what were the busses, like vans or big ones with chickens?

[User] Yeah, they had all the sorts of stuff and it was, I thought it was kind of humorous because Colombians always would fight to see who can get on the bus first. The bus would pull up and people were fighting their way on. But people would take their chickens on there. And I can't remember what it probably cost. 15 centavos or some? I think it was to ride the bus.

[Assistant] Now, if they all fought to get on, I assume you ended up standing most of the time?

[User] No, usually you could find a seat. There were, uh, I remember the busses, they just had long benches and you kind of got in from the side, sort of like one of those trams at Disneyworld or something like that.

[Assistant] Open sides so you come in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they had all the sorts of stuff and it was, I thought it was kind of humorous because Colombians always would fight to see who can get on the bus first. The bus would pull up and people were fighting their way on. But people would take their chickens on there. And I can't remember what it probably cost. 15 centavos or some? I think it was to ride the bus.

[Assistant] Now, if they all fought to get on, I assume you ended up standing most of the time?

[User] No, usually you could find a seat. There were, uh, I remember the busses, they just had long benches and you kind of got in from the side, sort of like one of those trams at Disneyworld or something like that.

[Assistant] Open sides so you come in.

[User]
Yeah, you come in on the sides. And some of them where you walked in the door and walked down an aisle like a traditional bus. I don't remember standing all that much. We did go to a sort of a town that was between Pradera and Cali. It was called Palmira if I remember correctly, where they had exchange students that these guys had gotten to know that were getting ready to go to the United States. So we'd go have lunch with the families of these kids that were getting sent up to Chillicothe, Ohio. I don't know why I remember that. Chillicothe was the name I remember. And so they wanted to make sure that their kids learned English. And so they would invite the Peace Corps volunteers so their sons could practice before they got to Chillicothe, Ohio.

And it was kind of like a triangle. There was a back road that went into straight from Pradera into Cali with the sugar cane fields, and then there was the main road that went to Palmira. So we took the bus, we went the main road to Palmira and then back into Cali. Or if you got a ride from somebody, you took this little two-lane road.

[Assistant] What was it like, was it curvy driving up and down hills?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, usually you could find a seat. There were, uh, I remember the busses, they just had long benches and you kind of got in from the side, sort of like one of those trams at Disneyworld or something like that.

[Assistant] Open sides so you come in.

[User]
Yeah, you come in on the sides. And some of them where you walked in the door and walked down an aisle like a traditional bus. I don't remember standing all that much. We did go to a sort of a town that was between Pradera and Cali. It was called Palmira if I remember correctly, where they had exchange students that these guys had gotten to know that were getting ready to go to the United States. So we'd go have lunch with the families of these kids that were getting sent up to Chillicothe, Ohio. I don't know why I remember that. Chillicothe was the name I remember. And so they wanted to make sure that their kids learned English. And so they would invite the Peace Corps volunteers so their sons could practice before they got to Chillicothe, Ohio.

And it was kind of like a triangle. There was a back road that went into straight from Pradera into Cali with the sugar cane fields, and then there was the main road that went to Palmira. So we took the bus, we went the main road to Palmira and then back into Cali. Or if you got a ride from somebody, you took this little two-lane road.

[Assistant] What was it like, was it curvy driving up and down hills?

[User] No, it was pretty flat. Cauca River Valley is pretty flat. It's all sugar cane. If you went off of the valley floor, then it got pretty hilly. But the mountains in Colombia, you know, they go from 12 to 15,000 feet and green right over the top. I think the tree line's at 15,000 feet.

[Assistant] And was there a lot of traffic on the roads or just the busses?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, you come in on the sides. And some of them where you walked in the door and walked down an aisle like a traditional bus. I don't remember standing all that much. We did go to a sort of a town that was between Pradera and Cali. It was called Palmira if I remember correctly, where they had exchange students that these guys had gotten to know that were getting ready to go to the United States. So we'd go have lunch with the families of these kids that were getting sent up to Chillicothe, Ohio. I don't know why I remember that. Chillicothe was the name I remember. And so they wanted to make sure that their kids learned English. And so they would invite the Peace Corps volunteers so their sons could practice before they got to Chillicothe, Ohio.

And it was kind of like a triangle. There was a back road that went into straight from Pradera into Cali with the sugar cane fields, and then there was the main road that went to Palmira. So we took the bus, we went the main road to Palmira and then back into Cali. Or if you got a ride from somebody, you took this little two-lane road.

[Assistant] What was it like, was it curvy driving up and down hills?

[User] No, it was pretty flat. Cauca River Valley is pretty flat. It's all sugar cane. If you went off of the valley floor, then it got pretty hilly. But the mountains in Colombia, you know, they go from 12 to 15,000 feet and green right over the top. I think the tree line's at 15,000 feet.

[Assistant] And was there a lot of traffic on the roads or just the busses?

[User] Yeah, there was quite a bit of traffic. I don't remember the traffic that much.

[Assistant] And what about the drivers and driving, any harrowing stories?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was pretty flat. Cauca River Valley is pretty flat. It's all sugar cane. If you went off of the valley floor, then it got pretty hilly. But the mountains in Colombia, you know, they go from 12 to 15,000 feet and green right over the top. I think the tree line's at 15,000 feet.

[Assistant] And was there a lot of traffic on the roads or just the busses?

[User] Yeah, there was quite a bit of traffic. I don't remember the traffic that much.

[Assistant] And what about the drivers and driving, any harrowing stories?

[User] Oh, well, we have. One of the fathers, and it may have been Dominick's future father-in-law, I can't recall, took us to the cockfights one night and that was in the outskirts of Cali. So we went to the cockfights and all those betting's going on. I couldn't figure out how they were betting. They'd put little money in these little rubber balls and split it up and throw it around. Somehow, if you caught the thing and there was a way of betting that you would put your money in the ball and threw it back and the bookie would take your money and write it all down. And it was all depending on, you know, until one of the roosters died. That was the. And I'm not sure whether cockfighting was legal in Colombia or not. Obviously, it's not legal here. But the ride home was, their sort of tradition is that the ride home was that you stopped at every bar on the way to get a shot of aguardiente, which was their licorice flavored liquor.

[Assistant] It's really potent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was like a cognac. Well, it was made out of sugar cane, and it obviously wasn't anywhere near as nice as cognac. And so we were stopping at one of theme, and I think he was just blitzed and we were driving back and he was driving a jeep and we were driving on the wrong side of the road, going about 60 miles an hour. And there were these two headlights coming in front of us, and I was about ready to jump out of jeep. And two headlights came toward us and they happened to be two motorcycles and they split and then went around on each side. And I about had to clean off my shorts. Fortunately, I was probably a little bit wrong because I didn't, it didn't occur to me that we were really in danger until the last minute. I'll never forget that ride, but fortunately it turned out OK.

[Assistant] Now from the little town, how did you get transferred to Cali?

[User] I think that was always kind of been, the Peace Corps was trying to make that happen. They just didn't have the logistics arranged with the Department of Public Works. And so I can't remember the sequence of events. Because I lived for three or four months up in Tuluá, which is about an hour's drive north up the Cauca River Valley. The Cauca River runs across north to south.

[Assistant] And this was different than the little town with the two community development volunteers. Now you moved someplace else?

[User] Then I moved up to Tuluá, which was to work on this library project.

[Assistant] How did you get involved with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was always kind of been, the Peace Corps was trying to make that happen. They just didn't have the logistics arranged with the Department of Public Works. And so I can't remember the sequence of events. Because I lived for three or four months up in Tuluá, which is about an hour's drive north up the Cauca River Valley. The Cauca River runs across north to south.

[Assistant] And this was different than the little town with the two community development volunteers. Now you moved someplace else?

[User] Then I moved up to Tuluá, which was to work on this library project.

[Assistant] How did you get involved with that?

[User] I can't remember.

[Assistant] Actually, no, you were the architect.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I moved up to Tuluá, which was to work on this library project.

[Assistant] How did you get involved with that?

[User] I can't remember.

[Assistant] Actually, no, you were the architect.

[User] I can't remember if I went to the. I think what happened was I went to the Department of Public Works first and then they said, well, we've got this project with this architect, you know, up in Tuluá. There was this old building that was in the center of town that they'd gotten partway done, and I don't know if it was part of a hotel or something else. And then the project had been abandoned. So it was this thing was just sitting there and it was essentially was two brick walls and a concrete roof over the front and a couple of columns on the back. And they wanted to build an intermediate floor and put glass on each end and make it a library, because it was right on the town square. And so they sent me up there to get that project going, which I think was finally built, although it was built after I left.

[Assistant] The town wanted that library?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember.

[Assistant] Actually, no, you were the architect.

[User] I can't remember if I went to the. I think what happened was I went to the Department of Public Works first and then they said, well, we've got this project with this architect, you know, up in Tuluá. There was this old building that was in the center of town that they'd gotten partway done, and I don't know if it was part of a hotel or something else. And then the project had been abandoned. So it was this thing was just sitting there and it was essentially was two brick walls and a concrete roof over the front and a couple of columns on the back. And they wanted to build an intermediate floor and put glass on each end and make it a library, because it was right on the town square. And so they sent me up there to get that project going, which I think was finally built, although it was built after I left.

[Assistant] The town wanted that library?

[User] Yeah, well, kind of. Excuse me, the state of Valle del Cauca. Because I have the sign that says my name on it, that was the sign they put on the public library.

[Assistant] So you got a little plaque there with your name on it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember if I went to the. I think what happened was I went to the Department of Public Works first and then they said, well, we've got this project with this architect, you know, up in Tuluá. There was this old building that was in the center of town that they'd gotten partway done, and I don't know if it was part of a hotel or something else. And then the project had been abandoned. So it was this thing was just sitting there and it was essentially was two brick walls and a concrete roof over the front and a couple of columns on the back. And they wanted to build an intermediate floor and put glass on each end and make it a library, because it was right on the town square. And so they sent me up there to get that project going, which I think was finally built, although it was built after I left.

[Assistant] The town wanted that library?

[User] Yeah, well, kind of. Excuse me, the state of Valle del Cauca. Because I have the sign that says my name on it, that was the sign they put on the public library.

[Assistant] So you got a little plaque there with your name on it?

[User]
Well, that was the. Well, they had this building and I'm sure that as the local politicians were lobbying to the governor's office in Cali. Colombia's divided up into a series of states or provinces and the Cauca River Valley is one of them. Cali is the capital, but Tuluá was one of the cities. In fact Tuluá was where that American Airlines plane crashed on its way to Cali in the early '70s. It was coming into the airport in Cali and lost power or whatever and crashed. But it was, hopefully it didn't knock out my library, but unfortunately that's less important and unfortunately for folks that were on the plane.

Um, but I lived up there for three or four months and worked on this project.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, kind of. Excuse me, the state of Valle del Cauca. Because I have the sign that says my name on it, that was the sign they put on the public library.

[Assistant] So you got a little plaque there with your name on it?

[User]
Well, that was the. Well, they had this building and I'm sure that as the local politicians were lobbying to the governor's office in Cali. Colombia's divided up into a series of states or provinces and the Cauca River Valley is one of them. Cali is the capital, but Tuluá was one of the cities. In fact Tuluá was where that American Airlines plane crashed on its way to Cali in the early '70s. It was coming into the airport in Cali and lost power or whatever and crashed. But it was, hopefully it didn't knock out my library, but unfortunately that's less important and unfortunately for folks that were on the plane.

Um, but I lived up there for three or four months and worked on this project.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] I was the only one in, in fact, there were a couple of other volunteers up there that were teaching English.

[Assistant] And what were your living accommodations there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, that was the. Well, they had this building and I'm sure that as the local politicians were lobbying to the governor's office in Cali. Colombia's divided up into a series of states or provinces and the Cauca River Valley is one of them. Cali is the capital, but Tuluá was one of the cities. In fact Tuluá was where that American Airlines plane crashed on its way to Cali in the early '70s. It was coming into the airport in Cali and lost power or whatever and crashed. But it was, hopefully it didn't knock out my library, but unfortunately that's less important and unfortunately for folks that were on the plane.

Um, but I lived up there for three or four months and worked on this project.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] I was the only one in, in fact, there were a couple of other volunteers up there that were teaching English.

[Assistant] And what were your living accommodations there?

[User] I had an apartment. Just a one room apartment that I went out and built my own furniture for.

[Assistant] Oh, tell that story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the only one in, in fact, there were a couple of other volunteers up there that were teaching English.

[Assistant] And what were your living accommodations there?

[User] I had an apartment. Just a one room apartment that I went out and built my own furniture for.

[Assistant] Oh, tell that story.

[User] I drew it up and went to the lumber yard and bought a bunch of wood. With hand tools, cut it up and made a bed and a series of tables and some other things. It was, I think it was on the second or third floor, third floor over the top of a bunch of shops. But it was, you know, it was austere, but okay. And the architect, his name was Carlos Potes, P-O-T-E-S. He was Colombian, but he'd studied architecture at the University of Miami in Miami, Florida. And his wife was an American. He'd met her in college and she was living, she'd gone back with him to Colombia. So he was. And they had three or four kids, but I was over their house a lot getting dinner and he was taking me around and showing me all the things to do. And his name is on that sign too. And that was probably the project that I'm really sure did get built. One of the challenges of being an architect is it always takes two or three years for your project. It takes you a year to design it, a year to build it. You're only there for 18 months. I was there for actually 22 months because I extended for a few months at the end. But things get built after you left, and I haven't been back since then.

[Assistant] So they had a good work crew to get this done and no problems with bureaucracy to speak of then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really that I recall. They, and there probably was, but they weren't telling me about them. I just do the drawings and they figured out how to get the, get everything built. It wasn't like here where we'd go out and watch construction, make sure they're doing it correctly. They had me off on another project by that time. Um, but I had to do everything in the metric system and in Spanish. So I, which, you know, I had my technical dictionary out there to, you know, what's this called? And the metric system is, once you get used to, isn't too tough. But I actually did it in both feet and inches and the metric system, because almost all of the building materials either were made in the United States, or a lot of them, or they were made with dies and tools that were made in the United States. So you'd have four meters of six inch pipe because the pipe, it all came from the United States. That's probably not true anymore, but it was certainly true back then.

[Assistant] You know, this is still all in your first year there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so then after the library project, what's um?

[User] When that started getting under construction then they moved me back and put me in the Department of Public Works in Cali. And I designed a couple of schools as I recall. I think I may have the plans someplace here. I haven't been able to find them.

[Assistant] Now did you work with a number of architects in the public works department? Or were you it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so then after the library project, what's um?

[User] When that started getting under construction then they moved me back and put me in the Department of Public Works in Cali. And I designed a couple of schools as I recall. I think I may have the plans someplace here. I haven't been able to find them.

[Assistant] Now did you work with a number of architects in the public works department? Or were you it?

[User] I was sort of their free architect. So if they had a job that, you know, that they needed an architect for, then I was the guy that could go out with them to go out to a community, look at the site, take some pictures, talk to folks to find out what they wanted. Draw up a sort of plan so that they could then figure out whether they could fit it in the budget. And so I was, I could essentially give them a little political cover. I could go out and I could talk to the community. And so that the politicians say, well, see, we were responding to your request. You know, we've got the plans started. And it could have taken four or five years after that before there was anything, I have no idea. I think they did build a couple of things that I designed.

[Assistant] Did they have other architects there in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When that started getting under construction then they moved me back and put me in the Department of Public Works in Cali. And I designed a couple of schools as I recall. I think I may have the plans someplace here. I haven't been able to find them.

[Assistant] Now did you work with a number of architects in the public works department? Or were you it?

[User] I was sort of their free architect. So if they had a job that, you know, that they needed an architect for, then I was the guy that could go out with them to go out to a community, look at the site, take some pictures, talk to folks to find out what they wanted. Draw up a sort of plan so that they could then figure out whether they could fit it in the budget. And so I was, I could essentially give them a little political cover. I could go out and I could talk to the community. And so that the politicians say, well, see, we were responding to your request. You know, we've got the plans started. And it could have taken four or five years after that before there was anything, I have no idea. I think they did build a couple of things that I designed.

[Assistant] Did they have other architects there in training?

[User] They had a couple of other architects, but a lot of the projects were done by architects in private practice as opposed to working directly for the firm. Most of the other folks in the department I was in were engineers, I think. I don't recall another architect. Memory's getting kind of fuzzy. I remember we did everything in ink on linen paper, as opposed to the computers we use today.

[Assistant] Was it a regular eight to five job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was sort of their free architect. So if they had a job that, you know, that they needed an architect for, then I was the guy that could go out with them to go out to a community, look at the site, take some pictures, talk to folks to find out what they wanted. Draw up a sort of plan so that they could then figure out whether they could fit it in the budget. And so I was, I could essentially give them a little political cover. I could go out and I could talk to the community. And so that the politicians say, well, see, we were responding to your request. You know, we've got the plans started. And it could have taken four or five years after that before there was anything, I have no idea. I think they did build a couple of things that I designed.

[Assistant] Did they have other architects there in training?

[User] They had a couple of other architects, but a lot of the projects were done by architects in private practice as opposed to working directly for the firm. Most of the other folks in the department I was in were engineers, I think. I don't recall another architect. Memory's getting kind of fuzzy. I remember we did everything in ink on linen paper, as opposed to the computers we use today.

[Assistant] Was it a regular eight to five job?

[User] Pretty much.

[Assistant] And you have to dress in a suit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had a couple of other architects, but a lot of the projects were done by architects in private practice as opposed to working directly for the firm. Most of the other folks in the department I was in were engineers, I think. I don't recall another architect. Memory's getting kind of fuzzy. I remember we did everything in ink on linen paper, as opposed to the computers we use today.

[Assistant] Was it a regular eight to five job?

[User] Pretty much.

[Assistant] And you have to dress in a suit?

[User] No, it was mostly. Cali was, there were some a lot of, you know, the politicians are all dressed in suits. Everybody else dressed in a shirt similar to what you have on, or what I've got on. It was, uh, we didn't have to put on a coat and tie, at least not that I remember. I'm sure I had one because I had one for the wedding, but I don't remember anything else.

[Assistant] Now how is it similar or different from working in an architect's office here in the States at the time, would you guess?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's Catholic. They thought he, and they knew there was a connection with the Peace Corps. But the pictures of Kennedy were in the bars before we ever got there. There was no picture of the Colombian president. There was a picture of Jack Kennedy behind the bar. I'm not sure that's where he would have wanted all his pictures to be, but it was a. That was the real link in the community. It was obvious that he was extremely well received in South America.

[Assistant] Now, you lived first with the two community development in a house, then you had the apartment by the library. Now when you moved.

[User] Then I took over, there were a series of these business development or cooperative volunteers that were in Cali that we're working with a variety of different cooperative groups trying to develop things. And they had, one of the guys had an apartment in Cali that was, it was I think, a one bedroom apartment in this little, in the whole group of these are kind of built up on like. They're all white stucco and you walk up a couple steps. It's almost like in a, you know, you see them in the Greek pictures, you know, in the Olympics or an Italian hill town. Really kind of a neat little thing, have windows on the courtyard. And really, we're just kind of passing that off from one volunteer to the other so we didn't have to renegotiate our lease. And it was about a 10 block walk to my office, so it was really quite nice.

[Assistant] And so you lived by yourself.

[User] I lived by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have somebody to help you to cook or do laundry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I took over, there were a series of these business development or cooperative volunteers that were in Cali that we're working with a variety of different cooperative groups trying to develop things. And they had, one of the guys had an apartment in Cali that was, it was I think, a one bedroom apartment in this little, in the whole group of these are kind of built up on like. They're all white stucco and you walk up a couple steps. It's almost like in a, you know, you see them in the Greek pictures, you know, in the Olympics or an Italian hill town. Really kind of a neat little thing, have windows on the courtyard. And really, we're just kind of passing that off from one volunteer to the other so we didn't have to renegotiate our lease. And it was about a 10 block walk to my office, so it was really quite nice.

[Assistant] And so you lived by yourself.

[User] I lived by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have somebody to help you to cook or do laundry?

[User] Nah, I did that myself. Well, laundry, I gave that to somebody else to do, I don't remember. I don't remember going to a laundromat or anything like that, but I didn't have, there was no servants or anything like that. Of course, the people want me to, and I know the other volunteers in other parts of the world had them.

[Assistant] Now you walk to work, did you have a bicycle too? Or was walking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have somebody to help you to cook or do laundry?

[User] Nah, I did that myself. Well, laundry, I gave that to somebody else to do, I don't remember. I don't remember going to a laundromat or anything like that, but I didn't have, there was no servants or anything like that. Of course, the people want me to, and I know the other volunteers in other parts of the world had them.

[Assistant] Now you walk to work, did you have a bicycle too? Or was walking?

[User] Primarily walking. I don't remember having, um, I know some guys had motor scooters and things like that, but I don't remember.

[Assistant] What was it like walking through town? How would you describe that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really got into watching soccer because they had professional soccer teams there and most of the, a lot of the really good players were from Argentina. The Colombians are rabid sports fans, especially for football or soccer. And they're just continually yelling the whole game, I don't know how they come out with any voice at all. But they had some really good players and it was a professional league, just like baseball or football is here in United States. Colombia probably had 10 or 15 teams. Every town had a team. In fact, Cali had two teams. Bogota probably had a couple, and I'm sure Medellin had a couple too.

[Assistant] You say that brings back memories of me in my training. They taught us how to play soccer. Did you have that too?

[User] Yeah. Back when I was in the Army, I came back from Vietnam and I was a tack officer at Officer Candidate School. I used soccer as a fitness thing in the Army.

[Assistant] So did you play soccer in Colombia then?

[User] Oh, a little bit, not very much. I mean, they could just run circles around me every day. Forget it, I was a post standing there and they were like. I could maybe slow them down a little bit but.

[Assistant] So you'd occasionally do a game or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Back when I was in the Army, I came back from Vietnam and I was a tack officer at Officer Candidate School. I used soccer as a fitness thing in the Army.

[Assistant] So did you play soccer in Colombia then?

[User] Oh, a little bit, not very much. I mean, they could just run circles around me every day. Forget it, I was a post standing there and they were like. I could maybe slow them down a little bit but.

[Assistant] So you'd occasionally do a game or something?

[User] We'd occasionally get into a game. I do remember that the, I think it's in the summer that the Spanish, the really good Spanish bullfighters would come to South America. I think their season is in the winter or it's the other way around. I can't remember. It may have been in the winter because their seasons. But we had El Portales, who was the rock star of bullfighters in the early '60s.

[Assistant] Was that your first bullfight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, a little bit, not very much. I mean, they could just run circles around me every day. Forget it, I was a post standing there and they were like. I could maybe slow them down a little bit but.

[Assistant] So you'd occasionally do a game or something?

[User] We'd occasionally get into a game. I do remember that the, I think it's in the summer that the Spanish, the really good Spanish bullfighters would come to South America. I think their season is in the winter or it's the other way around. I can't remember. It may have been in the winter because their seasons. But we had El Portales, who was the rock star of bullfighters in the early '60s.

[Assistant] Was that your first bullfight?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was that like?