[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved somewhat with the Lifting Body Program. Then I got involved with the [North American] B-70 [Valkyrie] program and I worked up a program with the contractor to put little canards on the front of the airplane that we could change the frequency of, and do in-flight vibration testing, because Rockwell had the capabilities of doing structural analysis to predict the vibration characteristics. Then of course one of the things we were interested in was did the aerodynamics affect the aircraft structural vibrations, because all the vibration tests and stuff that they do on an airplane is done on the ground. That was part of the thing with the program. I worked primarily on the airplane part of it and the flight testing, and John [H.] Wykes at [North American] Rockwell did the analysis based on the design. Then he and I presented a paper at AGARD [Advisory Group for Aerospace Research and Development] in France on the results of that.

[Assistant] Well, if you have to present somewhere, that’s a good place to present, in France.

[User] Yes, it was a good little program. As a result of what we did there, the [Rockwell] B-1 [Lancer (Bomber)] came out with those little canards on the front. That was for load alleviation in the turbulence on low [altitude] flight.

[Assistant] That’s quite an accomplishment.

[User] It gave the pilots a better ride, if nothing else.

[Assistant] I’m sure they appreciated that. Then you also had mentioned something during the Gemini Program. Were you involved with some of the checking out the parachutes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a good little program. As a result of what we did there, the [Rockwell] B-1 [Lancer (Bomber)] came out with those little canards on the front. That was for load alleviation in the turbulence on low [altitude] flight.

[Assistant] That’s quite an accomplishment.

[User] It gave the pilots a better ride, if nothing else.

[Assistant] I’m sure they appreciated that. Then you also had mentioned something during the Gemini Program. Were you involved with some of the checking out the parachutes?

[User] The Gemini Program is when they were first thinking about altering things to water landing. We built a little test airplane, a glider with a Parawing, which the hang gliders have been using ever since. But then some group at Johnson Space Center wanted to take that a little further, so they got Rockwell to build a similar device. We used metal struts for the structure. They don’t fold too good, so the concept they had Rockwell working on, I think maybe they worked with Goodyear, to have inflatable booms.\n\n They built at least one model. It was a full-size, we had a weight on it. It was a Gemini capsule thing. They did drop that, made some tests, then it went away. I’m not sure what the real reason for dropping it. But we proved that you could fly it like a glider, and flare and land with it.\n\n For some reason the concept went away, and of course it wasn’t even considered for Apollo. I think packaging may have been the main reason, bulk and packaging to get the inflatable struts and then the gas source to pressurize it. Because they did the tests at Edwards, we were in on that to a certain extent but we never followed up on it.

[Assistant] You also mentioned the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle. Did you have some involvement in that project as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It gave the pilots a better ride, if nothing else.

[Assistant] I’m sure they appreciated that. Then you also had mentioned something during the Gemini Program. Were you involved with some of the checking out the parachutes?

[User] The Gemini Program is when they were first thinking about altering things to water landing. We built a little test airplane, a glider with a Parawing, which the hang gliders have been using ever since. But then some group at Johnson Space Center wanted to take that a little further, so they got Rockwell to build a similar device. We used metal struts for the structure. They don’t fold too good, so the concept they had Rockwell working on, I think maybe they worked with Goodyear, to have inflatable booms.\n\n They built at least one model. It was a full-size, we had a weight on it. It was a Gemini capsule thing. They did drop that, made some tests, then it went away. I’m not sure what the real reason for dropping it. But we proved that you could fly it like a glider, and flare and land with it.\n\n For some reason the concept went away, and of course it wasn’t even considered for Apollo. I think packaging may have been the main reason, bulk and packaging to get the inflatable struts and then the gas source to pressurize it. Because they did the tests at Edwards, we were in on that to a certain extent but we never followed up on it.

[Assistant] You also mentioned the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle. Did you have some involvement in that project as well?

[User] More as consulting and some of the structural design, but in the concept and the actual test program I was not involved with it.

[Assistant] Did you watch it fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Gemini Program is when they were first thinking about altering things to water landing. We built a little test airplane, a glider with a Parawing, which the hang gliders have been using ever since. But then some group at Johnson Space Center wanted to take that a little further, so they got Rockwell to build a similar device. We used metal struts for the structure. They don’t fold too good, so the concept they had Rockwell working on, I think maybe they worked with Goodyear, to have inflatable booms.\n\n They built at least one model. It was a full-size, we had a weight on it. It was a Gemini capsule thing. They did drop that, made some tests, then it went away. I’m not sure what the real reason for dropping it. But we proved that you could fly it like a glider, and flare and land with it.\n\n For some reason the concept went away, and of course it wasn’t even considered for Apollo. I think packaging may have been the main reason, bulk and packaging to get the inflatable struts and then the gas source to pressurize it. Because they did the tests at Edwards, we were in on that to a certain extent but we never followed up on it.

[Assistant] You also mentioned the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle. Did you have some involvement in that project as well?

[User] More as consulting and some of the structural design, but in the concept and the actual test program I was not involved with it.

[Assistant] Did you watch it fly?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Your thoughts about how that worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More as consulting and some of the structural design, but in the concept and the actual test program I was not involved with it.

[Assistant] Did you watch it fly?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Your thoughts about how that worked?

[User] At that time NASA was pretty fairly small at Edwards, pretty small, and kind of a big family. Any time a project like that did anything, everybody had to go out and watch it.

[Assistant] Structurally what were you thinking when you watched that apparatus get off the ground?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Your thoughts about how that worked?

[User] At that time NASA was pretty fairly small at Edwards, pretty small, and kind of a big family. Any time a project like that did anything, everybody had to go out and watch it.

[Assistant] Structurally what were you thinking when you watched that apparatus get off the ground?

[User] We were concerned at the time not with the lunar lander but with the concept. Could it be used as a trainer? We weren’t concerned so much with things like weight that you’d have to do to package the whole thing and get it to the Moon. But the whole idea was could you simulate with the engine thrust the difference in gravity so that the pilot would only be working with the lesser gravity. We weren’t so much concerned with the design but as a test bed. It wasn’t really anything more than just mostly common sense. Don’t make it any heavier than you have to kind of thing.

[Assistant] How long were you with NASA here at Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time NASA was pretty fairly small at Edwards, pretty small, and kind of a big family. Any time a project like that did anything, everybody had to go out and watch it.

[Assistant] Structurally what were you thinking when you watched that apparatus get off the ground?

[User] We were concerned at the time not with the lunar lander but with the concept. Could it be used as a trainer? We weren’t concerned so much with things like weight that you’d have to do to package the whole thing and get it to the Moon. But the whole idea was could you simulate with the engine thrust the difference in gravity so that the pilot would only be working with the lesser gravity. We weren’t so much concerned with the design but as a test bed. It wasn’t really anything more than just mostly common sense. Don’t make it any heavier than you have to kind of thing.

[Assistant] How long were you with NASA here at Edwards?

[User] I was out here about 21 years.

[Assistant] And you retired in what year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were concerned at the time not with the lunar lander but with the concept. Could it be used as a trainer? We weren’t concerned so much with things like weight that you’d have to do to package the whole thing and get it to the Moon. But the whole idea was could you simulate with the engine thrust the difference in gravity so that the pilot would only be working with the lesser gravity. We weren’t so much concerned with the design but as a test bed. It wasn’t really anything more than just mostly common sense. Don’t make it any heavier than you have to kind of thing.

[Assistant] How long were you with NASA here at Edwards?

[User] I was out here about 21 years.

[Assistant] And you retired in what year?

[User] In 1980.

[Assistant] Right at the beginning of the Shuttle Program. Were you here for the Approach and Landing Tests [Program (ALT)]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was out here about 21 years.

[Assistant] And you retired in what year?

[User] In 1980.

[Assistant] Right at the beginning of the Shuttle Program. Were you here for the Approach and Landing Tests [Program (ALT)]?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Were you working with that program as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In 1980.

[Assistant] Right at the beginning of the Shuttle Program. Were you here for the Approach and Landing Tests [Program (ALT)]?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Were you working with that program as well?

[User] I was on the team to design primarily the pilot escape system out of the [modified Boeing] 747 [Shuttle Carrier Aircraft]. We were involved of course. But the primary modifications of the 747 was all done at Boeing. Because our pilots were going to be the ones to fly the 747, we got involved in coming up with an escape system, in case they had problems with the 747. It isn’t designed to get out of very easy.

[Assistant] I believe one of the pilots was explaining it, but I’m curious from your point of view, when you were working on it, how the system evolved. Could you share with us how you and your team came up with that escape system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Were you working with that program as well?

[User] I was on the team to design primarily the pilot escape system out of the [modified Boeing] 747 [Shuttle Carrier Aircraft]. We were involved of course. But the primary modifications of the 747 was all done at Boeing. Because our pilots were going to be the ones to fly the 747, we got involved in coming up with an escape system, in case they had problems with the 747. It isn’t designed to get out of very easy.

[Assistant] I believe one of the pilots was explaining it, but I’m curious from your point of view, when you were working on it, how the system evolved. Could you share with us how you and your team came up with that escape system?

[User] It was basically a chute coming from the cockpit out to the bottom of the airplane that the pilot could drop into and come out the bottom, instead of being in danger of being hit by any of the other structure. An ejection seat would have been out of the question because it puts you right into the Shuttle, if it was still attached. So they had to come up with an alternate system. The general thinking I think at the time was that any emergency wouldn’t be a sudden emergency, it would be something that would mean that the airplane was not returnable, and the pilots would have time to make a quick exit. It was working with the chute. It wasn’t supposed to be a straight drop, and you couldn’t just put it right at the bottom, it was working around the landing gear and various other parts of the structure. That was primarily our involvement at Edwards with the program.\n\n Our pilots were very much involved with the program, because they were worried about the change in the handling qualities and the stability of the airplane. Some of our people that worked with the pilots on handling qualities were involved. As far as the aerodynamics and the structures and that part of it, that was all Boeing.

[Assistant] Were you pretty comfortable with the design of the mate? Although like you mentioned it was Boeing. But as a structures person, did you feel like the combination was going to work as well as it did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The escape system as far as I know was never used. So that means it was a good system. We were just on the fringes of the actual structural modification. That was pretty much handled by Johnson. We were involved of course with the initial flights when they launched it off the back, mainly because our pilots were flying the airplane, and we were responsible for the landing.\n\n We didn’t get involved directly with the Shuttle Program that much. We had the High Temperature Structures Lab out at Edwards. We did do some testing. I wasn’t involved in that, but they did do some testing with some different components. At that time I think Edwards was the only one, I think it still is the only one that has High Temperature Structures Lab capabilities.

[Assistant] As you were there you moved up the management levels, is that correct?

[User] Yes. When I retired, I was Engineering Division Chief.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of responsibility, with all those engineers.

[User] We had primarily airplane dynamics, flight control, and handling qualities in our division. We worked with that aspect of the thing. A couple of people that worked in my division worked with the early flights of the Shuttle. It indicated some pilot-induced oscillation problems with the control system, so Edwards was running some tests with our digital flight control airplane, and a couple of our pilots and a couple of my engineers worked on that program. They were able to help the Shuttle group come up with flight control system changes. But other than that, we weren’t all that much involved with the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] What other airplanes were you working on close to the end of your career there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When I retired, I was Engineering Division Chief.

[Assistant] That’s a lot of responsibility, with all those engineers.

[User] We had primarily airplane dynamics, flight control, and handling qualities in our division. We worked with that aspect of the thing. A couple of people that worked in my division worked with the early flights of the Shuttle. It indicated some pilot-induced oscillation problems with the control system, so Edwards was running some tests with our digital flight control airplane, and a couple of our pilots and a couple of my engineers worked on that program. They were able to help the Shuttle group come up with flight control system changes. But other than that, we weren’t all that much involved with the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] What other airplanes were you working on close to the end of your career there?

[User] We did some work on the structural dynamics and vibration of the [Lockheed] SR-71 [Blackbird]. We did a series of lab tests, vibration tests. I was involved in that. Lockheed, one of their engineers there did the structural analysis for the vibration stuff, and he and I presented a paper on that at one of the conferences.

[Assistant] Did you like the SR-71? Did you find that plane to be an interesting plane to work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had primarily airplane dynamics, flight control, and handling qualities in our division. We worked with that aspect of the thing. A couple of people that worked in my division worked with the early flights of the Shuttle. It indicated some pilot-induced oscillation problems with the control system, so Edwards was running some tests with our digital flight control airplane, and a couple of our pilots and a couple of my engineers worked on that program. They were able to help the Shuttle group come up with flight control system changes. But other than that, we weren’t all that much involved with the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] What other airplanes were you working on close to the end of your career there?

[User] We did some work on the structural dynamics and vibration of the [Lockheed] SR-71 [Blackbird]. We did a series of lab tests, vibration tests. I was involved in that. Lockheed, one of their engineers there did the structural analysis for the vibration stuff, and he and I presented a paper on that at one of the conferences.

[Assistant] Did you like the SR-71? Did you find that plane to be an interesting plane to work on?

[User] It was an interesting plane all around. To work on it wasn’t all that much fun because it leaked fuel everywhere. You had to be very careful. When we were doing the vibration tests in the lab, you had to be very careful where you were during the test because of the dripping fuel. But yes, it’s an interesting airplane.

[Assistant] Was that the last plane that you worked on, the SR-71? Or were there others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did some work on the structural dynamics and vibration of the [Lockheed] SR-71 [Blackbird]. We did a series of lab tests, vibration tests. I was involved in that. Lockheed, one of their engineers there did the structural analysis for the vibration stuff, and he and I presented a paper on that at one of the conferences.

[Assistant] Did you like the SR-71? Did you find that plane to be an interesting plane to work on?

[User] It was an interesting plane all around. To work on it wasn’t all that much fun because it leaked fuel everywhere. You had to be very careful. When we were doing the vibration tests in the lab, you had to be very careful where you were during the test because of the dripping fuel. But yes, it’s an interesting airplane.

[Assistant] Was that the last plane that you worked on, the SR-71? Or were there others?

[User] By that time I was pretty much into administrative work, because we had to work with budgets and we had to work with assignments, and we had project support. We had several projects going, and I’d be sure it had proper people assigned to the projects, the different phases of the program. That was pretty much the way things were going. The last program I had anything to do with was the high speed drone program [Rockwell RPRV-870 HiMAT (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology)]. Not so much directly, but my people were working on the program. It was an interesting concept; it’s different from the drones they do now because it was designed to fly from the ground cockpit, like the pilot was in the airplane. I left about the time they started flying that, so I’m not sure exactly what all went.

[Assistant]
If it’s okay, I’m going to ask Sandra if she’s got any other questions that she wanted to ask you before we close today.

I was just thinking about the different airplanes you worked on, and being a pilot, would you have ever wanted to do some of that test-flying like the pilots that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an interesting plane all around. To work on it wasn’t all that much fun because it leaked fuel everywhere. You had to be very careful. When we were doing the vibration tests in the lab, you had to be very careful where you were during the test because of the dripping fuel. But yes, it’s an interesting airplane.

[Assistant] Was that the last plane that you worked on, the SR-71? Or were there others?

[User] By that time I was pretty much into administrative work, because we had to work with budgets and we had to work with assignments, and we had project support. We had several projects going, and I’d be sure it had proper people assigned to the projects, the different phases of the program. That was pretty much the way things were going. The last program I had anything to do with was the high speed drone program [Rockwell RPRV-870 HiMAT (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology)]. Not so much directly, but my people were working on the program. It was an interesting concept; it’s different from the drones they do now because it was designed to fly from the ground cockpit, like the pilot was in the airplane. I left about the time they started flying that, so I’m not sure exactly what all went.

[Assistant]
If it’s okay, I’m going to ask Sandra if she’s got any other questions that she wanted to ask you before we close today.

I was just thinking about the different airplanes you worked on, and being a pilot, would you have ever wanted to do some of that test-flying like the pilots that you worked with?

[User] The answer is dual. Yes, but I knew I didn’t have the skill level. You watch these pilots. I never flew with them in a test program, but I flew with them in other airplanes. These guys are so precise and reflexes are so good. I never felt like I would like to really fly the test programs.

[Assistant] What airplanes did you get to fly with the test pilots?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By that time I was pretty much into administrative work, because we had to work with budgets and we had to work with assignments, and we had project support. We had several projects going, and I’d be sure it had proper people assigned to the projects, the different phases of the program. That was pretty much the way things were going. The last program I had anything to do with was the high speed drone program [Rockwell RPRV-870 HiMAT (Highly Maneuverable Aircraft Technology)]. Not so much directly, but my people were working on the program. It was an interesting concept; it’s different from the drones they do now because it was designed to fly from the ground cockpit, like the pilot was in the airplane. I left about the time they started flying that, so I’m not sure exactly what all went.

[Assistant]
If it’s okay, I’m going to ask Sandra if she’s got any other questions that she wanted to ask you before we close today.

I was just thinking about the different airplanes you worked on, and being a pilot, would you have ever wanted to do some of that test-flying like the pilots that you worked with?

[User] The answer is dual. Yes, but I knew I didn’t have the skill level. You watch these pilots. I never flew with them in a test program, but I flew with them in other airplanes. These guys are so precise and reflexes are so good. I never felt like I would like to really fly the test programs.

[Assistant] What airplanes did you get to fly with the test pilots?

[User] We used to fly the Gooney Bird [Douglas C-47 Skytrain], and we had the Aero Commander [680F] most of the time. Sometimes they’d let me fly the Aero Commander. But that was about the size of it. I knew their skill levels and their dedication was 100 percent. I didn’t have that much time. I had too many other things to do. I enjoyed working with them, but I never really had the desire, mainly because I knew I couldn’t do it.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve had other people who described it as they were natural pilots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The answer is dual. Yes, but I knew I didn’t have the skill level. You watch these pilots. I never flew with them in a test program, but I flew with them in other airplanes. These guys are so precise and reflexes are so good. I never felt like I would like to really fly the test programs.

[Assistant] What airplanes did you get to fly with the test pilots?

[User] We used to fly the Gooney Bird [Douglas C-47 Skytrain], and we had the Aero Commander [680F] most of the time. Sometimes they’d let me fly the Aero Commander. But that was about the size of it. I knew their skill levels and their dedication was 100 percent. I didn’t have that much time. I had too many other things to do. I enjoyed working with them, but I never really had the desire, mainly because I knew I couldn’t do it.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve had other people who described it as they were natural pilots.

[User] Yes. Some of them, they were so far ahead of the airplane, it was unbelievable. I don’t know how they could do it. But that’s what they did. I think we had some of the best pilots in the world out there at Edwards at different times.

[Assistant] What was your favorite project that you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used to fly the Gooney Bird [Douglas C-47 Skytrain], and we had the Aero Commander [680F] most of the time. Sometimes they’d let me fly the Aero Commander. But that was about the size of it. I knew their skill levels and their dedication was 100 percent. I didn’t have that much time. I had too many other things to do. I enjoyed working with them, but I never really had the desire, mainly because I knew I couldn’t do it.

[Assistant] Yes, we’ve had other people who described it as they were natural pilots.

[User] Yes. Some of them, they were so far ahead of the airplane, it was unbelievable. I don’t know how they could do it. But that’s what they did. I think we had some of the best pilots in the world out there at Edwards at different times.

[Assistant] What was your favorite project that you worked on?

[User] I would probably have to say the X-15, because that was a fairly long program, it lasted like nine years. It had a lot of challenges, because nobody had ever been there before. When we started flying the Lifting Bodies, we already knew that the characteristics of the approach and landing was very similar to the X-15. Then the Shuttle came along, it’s about the same L/D [lift to drag ratio] as that. Those programs, we already had the background, so it wasn’t quite the same as the X-15 Program where everything was new. There were a lot of new issues and new things.\n\n I enjoyed the B-70 program too, because it had some interesting aspects. We had structural problems with the landing gear on that. Then the in-flight vibration program was interesting. But I was getting more and more involved in the supervision and administration and budget cycles by that time, that the technical aspects and the details were lost.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can remember, or anything else that you’d like to share with us, that part of your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Some of them, they were so far ahead of the airplane, it was unbelievable. I don’t know how they could do it. But that’s what they did. I think we had some of the best pilots in the world out there at Edwards at different times.

[Assistant] What was your favorite project that you worked on?

[User] I would probably have to say the X-15, because that was a fairly long program, it lasted like nine years. It had a lot of challenges, because nobody had ever been there before. When we started flying the Lifting Bodies, we already knew that the characteristics of the approach and landing was very similar to the X-15. Then the Shuttle came along, it’s about the same L/D [lift to drag ratio] as that. Those programs, we already had the background, so it wasn’t quite the same as the X-15 Program where everything was new. There were a lot of new issues and new things.\n\n I enjoyed the B-70 program too, because it had some interesting aspects. We had structural problems with the landing gear on that. Then the in-flight vibration program was interesting. But I was getting more and more involved in the supervision and administration and budget cycles by that time, that the technical aspects and the details were lost.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can remember, or anything else that you’d like to share with us, that part of your career?

[User] I could mention a few other things. When I first went to work at Langley, I was surprised that personnel called me right after I got there, wanted to know if I would teach some night school classes for the University of Virginia [Charlottesville] graduate extension. I did that for 11 years. I taught advanced math. Then I worked on my Ph.D. at the same time, went to summer school at Virginia Tech [Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg] and got my Ph.D. from that program.

[Assistant] Did some of the Langley employees take those classes from you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would probably have to say the X-15, because that was a fairly long program, it lasted like nine years. It had a lot of challenges, because nobody had ever been there before. When we started flying the Lifting Bodies, we already knew that the characteristics of the approach and landing was very similar to the X-15. Then the Shuttle came along, it’s about the same L/D [lift to drag ratio] as that. Those programs, we already had the background, so it wasn’t quite the same as the X-15 Program where everything was new. There were a lot of new issues and new things.\n\n I enjoyed the B-70 program too, because it had some interesting aspects. We had structural problems with the landing gear on that. Then the in-flight vibration program was interesting. But I was getting more and more involved in the supervision and administration and budget cycles by that time, that the technical aspects and the details were lost.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can remember, or anything else that you’d like to share with us, that part of your career?

[User] I could mention a few other things. When I first went to work at Langley, I was surprised that personnel called me right after I got there, wanted to know if I would teach some night school classes for the University of Virginia [Charlottesville] graduate extension. I did that for 11 years. I taught advanced math. Then I worked on my Ph.D. at the same time, went to summer school at Virginia Tech [Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg] and got my Ph.D. from that program.

[Assistant] Did some of the Langley employees take those classes from you?

[User] A lot of them.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that’s why they wanted you to teach them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could mention a few other things. When I first went to work at Langley, I was surprised that personnel called me right after I got there, wanted to know if I would teach some night school classes for the University of Virginia [Charlottesville] graduate extension. I did that for 11 years. I taught advanced math. Then I worked on my Ph.D. at the same time, went to summer school at Virginia Tech [Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg] and got my Ph.D. from that program.

[Assistant] Did some of the Langley employees take those classes from you?

[User] A lot of them.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that’s why they wanted you to teach them.

[User] I had been teaching at Purdue, so I had the background. The University of Virginia master’s program had just started an extension, and one of the things they were requiring in order to get into the program, you had to take one of the advanced math classes. Almost everybody that went through that program or even started the program I had in one of my classes. So I had 15 to 18, 20 every semester. By the time I left after 11 years, I had been acquainted with almost every engineer at Langley.

[Assistant]
Coming from Purdue, a lot of astronauts came from Purdue too, that school is pretty well known for producing a lot of pretty accomplished people.

All the way through NASA, engineers also.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of them.

[Assistant] I was wondering if that’s why they wanted you to teach them.

[User] I had been teaching at Purdue, so I had the background. The University of Virginia master’s program had just started an extension, and one of the things they were requiring in order to get into the program, you had to take one of the advanced math classes. Almost everybody that went through that program or even started the program I had in one of my classes. So I had 15 to 18, 20 every semester. By the time I left after 11 years, I had been acquainted with almost every engineer at Langley.

[Assistant]
Coming from Purdue, a lot of astronauts came from Purdue too, that school is pretty well known for producing a lot of pretty accomplished people.

All the way through NASA, engineers also.

[User] When I was at Purdue I was teaching the vibration class, a required course for seniors. A lot of the engineering graduates at Purdue the last two years I was there all had to go through my class on that. Almost all my students at Purdue were on the GI Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944]. Over half the class was older than I was.

[Assistant] Did you continue your teaching when you came out to Edwards? Did you teach out here as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had been teaching at Purdue, so I had the background. The University of Virginia master’s program had just started an extension, and one of the things they were requiring in order to get into the program, you had to take one of the advanced math classes. Almost everybody that went through that program or even started the program I had in one of my classes. So I had 15 to 18, 20 every semester. By the time I left after 11 years, I had been acquainted with almost every engineer at Langley.

[Assistant]
Coming from Purdue, a lot of astronauts came from Purdue too, that school is pretty well known for producing a lot of pretty accomplished people.

All the way through NASA, engineers also.

[User] When I was at Purdue I was teaching the vibration class, a required course for seniors. A lot of the engineering graduates at Purdue the last two years I was there all had to go through my class on that. Almost all my students at Purdue were on the GI Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944]. Over half the class was older than I was.

[Assistant] Did you continue your teaching when you came out to Edwards? Did you teach out here as well?

[User] Yes, I did some. I taught a class for UCLA, and I taught undergraduate classes for Chapman College [now Chapman University, Orange, California], and I taught a couple of advanced engineering classes for Fresno State [California State University], all at night school at Edwards. Then after I retired, I taught for a couple of years for West Coast University, mostly math and physics.

[Assistant] You stayed busy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was at Purdue I was teaching the vibration class, a required course for seniors. A lot of the engineering graduates at Purdue the last two years I was there all had to go through my class on that. Almost all my students at Purdue were on the GI Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944]. Over half the class was older than I was.

[Assistant] Did you continue your teaching when you came out to Edwards? Did you teach out here as well?

[User] Yes, I did some. I taught a class for UCLA, and I taught undergraduate classes for Chapman College [now Chapman University, Orange, California], and I taught a couple of advanced engineering classes for Fresno State [California State University], all at night school at Edwards. Then after I retired, I taught for a couple of years for West Coast University, mostly math and physics.

[Assistant] You stayed busy.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, thanks for sharing that. I was going to ask you what you did your dissertation on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, thanks for sharing that. I was going to ask you what you did your dissertation on.

[User] My dissertation was done on the vibration analysis of a toroidal space station [rotating wheel design]. Shell station, you know, a big tire.

[Assistant] How interesting.

[User] But they haven’t built those yet. At the time the thinking was that you had to have some gravity, because a long time in weightlessness could be a major physical problem. They were talking about having this doughnut spin, artificial gravity, so the centrifugal force would simulate gravity. I guess they decided they didn’t need to go that way.

[Assistant] Well, thank you for sharing your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gosh.

[Assistant] That’s always a difficult question for people.

[User] I would say it’s probably in changing the way that we function from an inward-looking organization to one that is responsible to outside users. Whether that’s getting the program to realize building ISS isn’t the goal, it’s really getting the science done that’s the goal, or if it’s working with our international partners to help our politicians understand what we’re accomplishing.\n\n I think that I was in a place to have the opportunity—as the Space Station grew up I had the opportunity to be the one that was there and saying, “Hey. These things happen differently when your purpose is research. Think about this or think about that.” I had the opportunity to be in that place.\n\n Sometimes that’s difficult or sometimes it’s easy. Right now there’s just a momentum behind things. Things like RISE [Revolutionize ISS for Science and Exploration] are just roaring forward. That’s really exciting to see those changes happening over time. But at its core, I think the big contribution that I’ve made is seeing that big picture strategy without being biased towards any one particular discipline. My goal hasn’t been just to help astrophysics be successful on ISS. It’s been to help everybody be successful.\n\n When they have a conflict, if they’re fighting over crew time, I’m still trying to help each of them get what they need within the constraints of the law.

[Assistant] You mentioned RISE. Are you working with that group?

[User] I would say that group came after the influence that I had. I definitely meet with them and insert my two cents, but what’s beautiful about that is it’s got a momentum of its own. People are really changing the way that they’re thinking on their own. Engineering organizations are removing their own requirements. That’s the beauty of RISE, is that you’ve got change generated from within.

[Assistant] What would you consider your most significant challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had maybe about 10 or 12 pieces of glass in the cockpit. I went up there to look at those factories several times. We went in, and they’d show me the sand and show me the glass being done and the boules being made. It was very important for somebody like me to go there, not because I knew a thing about glass. But it was good for me to let them know that what they were doing was important to the program.

[Assistant] How was that similar to what you did during the Apollo Program? Was Shuttle development and Apollo development similar? Or were they very different?

[User] No, I don’t think so. I think North American did most of it themselves, from a management point of view, not from an engineering point of view. All of our engineers were all over the place like ants. But I guess it was me. I don’t know.\n\n That’s what I wanted to do. They wanted me to do it. I’m Chris Kraft now. That doesn’t mean much in most places, but it does mean something in the space business. It was good that Aaron [Cohen] and I would show up—here’s the program manager from NASA, here’s the Director of NASA, here’s the president of Rockwell Aerospace, here’s the program manager, here’s the chief engineer, and the engineer that’s got the responsibility within North American for the APU. We were in Sundstrand [Iowa] one morning when it was minus 40 degrees.

[Assistant] Wow, that’s cold.

[User] Went there a lot. Sundstrand is in the middle of the Corn Belt. We’d get off the airplane, one of these small airports, and drive down through the cornfields, these big cornfields. We landed in Binghamton, New York, in an ice storm. All kinds of experiences.

[Assistant] The Shuttle was so complicated. You were going to launch in what—’78 originally? Then it kept getting pushed back. Was there ever a sense from your perspective that gosh, we’re never going to get off the ground?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t know what else to do. We did not know what else to do.

[Assistant] You had done everything that you could.

[User] We had done everything we could think of. We convinced ourselves that we had done the best we could, we didn’t think it was going to fail. When you start out with just thrusters, these attitude thrusters are shooting and balancing the loads—the moments on the airplane, forces on the airplane. I said before the flight, “Well, we’ll probably have to change those gains after we get through the first flight.” After it landed I said, “We won’t touch a thing, it worked. Don’t touch it.” I don’t know whether they’ve touched them since or not. But it worked and we decided not to fool around with it anymore, the damn thing worked.

[Assistant] What did you think of that first flight being manned? Were you in favor of that, or were you in favor of unmanned?

[User] Oh yes, oh, sure. The systems required the operation and the oversight of the pilots during reentry—not during launch, nothing they can do during launch. But during reentry if the Orbiter had gone unstable, they probably could have helped it; the systems on board had an awful lot of redundancy. So if you had a system fail, you could have them switch to another system. You had the crew’s brains thinking as well as the people on the ground having the capability of oversight.\n\n We went through a lot to prove that we should launch STS-1 manned instead of unmanned; it was the first time we ever tried to do anything like that. We convinced ourselves that the reliability was higher and the risk lower, even though we were risking the lives of two men. We convinced ourselves and the top NASA management that that was a better way to do it.

[Assistant] After STS-1 landed, you’ve been quoted as saying, “We grew infinitely smarter.” Could you explain what you meant by that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was kind of funny, because Reagan was a very simple human being. He’s dumb like a fox, but still not very knowledgeable in the technical world. Matter of fact, probably one of the lowest presidents in technology we’ve ever had, but that wasn’t important in his job, it didn’t mean anything.\n\n Trying to explain to him what we were doing in any form wasn’t easy. What he said to me was, “You know, Dr. Kraft, I can’t understand most of the stuff you’re telling me, and I don’t understand most of what’s going on here, because I was only in the cavalry.”\n\n When you see that picture of him and me, that’s exactly what he said to me, “I was only in the cavalry.”

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] But he certainly appreciated what we were doing and what we did. We seem to have seen both ends of that spectrum from Reagan to Griffin. Griffin is too smart. You can’t be that smart and be a manager or be a NASA Administrator.\n\n Now [Griffin] was very important to NASA, he did a fantastic job, and he is what they needed at the time. But he also is not what is needed today. He made NASA a leaderless organization, because he was too smart.

[Assistant] Who do you think should be the next Administrator?

[User] Charlie [Charles F.] Bolden would be a great one I think. That’s only a guess. Because Charlie is smart but he’s not too smart. You don’t want managers to be too smart. You want them to build people, build leaders, build responsibility. If you take it on all yourself, which is what Joe [Joseph F.] Shea [Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office, 1963-1967] did, then you end up with a pretty tough situation, because nobody is that smart.

[Assistant] Yes. We all need people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But he certainly appreciated what we were doing and what we did. We seem to have seen both ends of that spectrum from Reagan to Griffin. Griffin is too smart. You can’t be that smart and be a manager or be a NASA Administrator.\n\n Now [Griffin] was very important to NASA, he did a fantastic job, and he is what they needed at the time. But he also is not what is needed today. He made NASA a leaderless organization, because he was too smart.

[Assistant] Who do you think should be the next Administrator?

[User] Charlie [Charles F.] Bolden would be a great one I think. That’s only a guess. Because Charlie is smart but he’s not too smart. You don’t want managers to be too smart. You want them to build people, build leaders, build responsibility. If you take it on all yourself, which is what Joe [Joseph F.] Shea [Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office, 1963-1967] did, then you end up with a pretty tough situation, because nobody is that smart.

[Assistant] Yes. We all need people.

[User] Yes. If you’re too smart, you think you know everything. You don’t know everything. You’re a damn sight far away from knowing everything in any complex situation. You’re better off being a little dumb than you are being too smart because that makes the situation what it ought to be—you build more people, better people, and people that take and are willing to accept responsibility for getting the job done. They will do it a lot better when you teach them or allow them to be taught or allow them to gain the experience to do it. That’s a simple criterion that ought to be followed. Now if you could come up with both, that would be the ideal, but also idealistic.

[Assistant] Was that your style when you were Center Director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, but there is a process.

[Assistant] I was going to say, you have a volunteer here if you need one.

[User] You know, I wouldn’t be surprised. Is that something that you would do, is that what you’re saying?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And your interest in architecture. And I was touring one of the galleries last week and saw that there is a couple architectural drawings hanging up on the walls to showcase some of the documents that the Archive has. I was interested, why isn’t there anything about the Archives building itself? It’s such an interesting icon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was, almost three weeks. And that exhibit was initially supposed to open in early November, I think. And it got pushed back to mid-December. I can’t remember if we opened, I think we opened before Christmas.

[Assistant] And wasn’t the Archives, or the Federal government closed that day, when the exhibit opened? Or that was the Signatures exhibit.

[User] Yeah, the Signature exhibit.

[Assistant] It was the closed the day of the snowstorm.

[User] The snow, yeah. No. But it wasn’t, yeah. I was here for the opening of the Records of Rights exhibit. I remember coming to work that day, going home, changing clothes, picking up my wife, and coming back for the evening.

[Assistant] Well you mentioned the lighting in the Rotunda, I wanted to the talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The LED fixtures are not cheap. And they only last six to eight years and you got to replace them. But, but they’re not using carbon. The fixtures themselves, you know, like 8 or 9 watts is equivalent to a 65 watt fixture, the LED 8 or 9 watt output is, produces the same light that a 60 or 65 watt fixture does. So—

[Assistant] [Interposing] Wow.

[User] So we’re pulling a lot less electricity to light the Rotunda. Probably about 20 to 25% of what we were using before.

[Assistant] Well have you been recognized with any awards or citations in your career?

[User] I think I got an Archivist Achievement Award, a group, you know, along with a larger group of people, for both the Charters Encasement Project and the new Rubenstein Gallery project, Record of Rights exhibit. I certainly earned other spot awards over the years. I can’t really sit here and tell you what they are. I’ve never been motivated by awards. But I’m appreciative of the awards I’ve got. I may have gotten another one for the Magna Carta exhibit that we put up a couple of years ago, but I can’t remember. But I’m the kind of person that all of those certificates that I’ve gotten over the years are stuffed in a couple of folders in a file. I appreciate them but I’m not one of those guys that’s got them all up on the wall in my office. Not even one of them. But I do appreciate that I’ve been recognized. Yeah. I feel like I’ve been recognized, well-recognized for my work here at the Archives through the years.

[Assistant] All right. What do you see as the biggest challenges for the National Archive in the future? From your perspective.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many labs submerge hardware to be cleaned in ultrasonic cleaners. The ultrasonic energy loosens the particles so they can be washed away. Megasonic is a higher energy level. The cleaning effects are slightly different than ultrasonic. Our device provided a shower of megasonically energized ultrapure water aimed at the object to be cleaned. It’s like taking a shower versus taking a bath. In the bathtub you’re sitting with the dirt, in the shower the dirt is washed down the drain. There was that difference. By particle counts that we took, it worked really well, getting these large, odd-shape pieces particle-free and cleaned up.

[Assistant] How long did that process take you?

[User] Trying to recall the dates. If we were to clean one piece, like the bottom or the top, it would be a daylong thing: getting it in there, cleaning it up. Then you had to take nitrogen jets and dry it. All of this was in a fairly particle-free room. You’d set that out overnight. It would be ready to assemble the next day.

[Assistant] Did you say this was also manufactured in a clean room? So if it was, what was the idea or the intent behind having to clean the equipment again?

[User] I think payload parts were manufactured in a regular machine shop, perhaps with care to keep it clean. Additionally parts arrived from JPL cleaned and bagged, but their typical flight cleaning requirements were not sufficient to meet the science requirements.

[Assistant] Oh, it was. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Trying to recall the dates. If we were to clean one piece, like the bottom or the top, it would be a daylong thing: getting it in there, cleaning it up. Then you had to take nitrogen jets and dry it. All of this was in a fairly particle-free room. You’d set that out overnight. It would be ready to assemble the next day.

[Assistant] Did you say this was also manufactured in a clean room? So if it was, what was the idea or the intent behind having to clean the equipment again?

[User] I think payload parts were manufactured in a regular machine shop, perhaps with care to keep it clean. Additionally parts arrived from JPL cleaned and bagged, but their typical flight cleaning requirements were not sufficient to meet the science requirements.

[Assistant] Oh, it was. Okay.

[User] We did some precleaning on it, you know wiping. We actually used a little bit of surfactant. In this case it was Joy [dishwashing liquid], two drops of Joy in a whole pan of water, but that was just to get handling debris off of it.

[Assistant] There was concern about contamination. Is that why it had to be clean? Were you concerned about bringing life here and sending it to the Sun? I’m just curious about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we actually had people change out of their street clothes and put on scrubs under those suits just to keep from dragging particles from street clothes into the lab. Also that was cooler than most street clothes. The suits didn’t breathe all that well. Our precautions were for the purpose of keeping the interior of the suits clean and personnel comfort. The LRL procedure was for the purpose of containment of potential biohazards inside the LRL.

[Assistant] I can imagine with Teflon on.

[User] Because the clean room—the air coming from the ceiling to the floor travels at 100 linear feet per minute. So what does that make, 12 air changes a minute? That “vertical breeze” cools things off a lot just because the air is moving. In the LRL the scrubs were the lab outfit. They made people take off everything and put on laboratory-furnished scrubs. They had to take off everything and shower out before they could leave. They were just trying to make sure no one carried anything hazardous out of the lab.

[Assistant] Did you ever go visit any clean labs in Silicon Valley as you were creating this lab? Or did you just read up on literature and decide, “These are the things that we need to have as we’re constructing this lab”?

[User] We attended—between Eileen, Jack, and I—several semiconductor conferences. They provided clean room classes, suit classes, air shower classes. We went to the trade shows. That’s where we got our megasonic cleaner that we used and the cascade tanks. Most of those things were not very expensive. Back in those days several semiconductor trade shows were in Austin, so we could drive. It was very economical.

[Assistant] So most everything was off the shelf. It wasn’t anything newly created for JSC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because the clean room—the air coming from the ceiling to the floor travels at 100 linear feet per minute. So what does that make, 12 air changes a minute? That “vertical breeze” cools things off a lot just because the air is moving. In the LRL the scrubs were the lab outfit. They made people take off everything and put on laboratory-furnished scrubs. They had to take off everything and shower out before they could leave. They were just trying to make sure no one carried anything hazardous out of the lab.

[Assistant] Did you ever go visit any clean labs in Silicon Valley as you were creating this lab? Or did you just read up on literature and decide, “These are the things that we need to have as we’re constructing this lab”?

[User] We attended—between Eileen, Jack, and I—several semiconductor conferences. They provided clean room classes, suit classes, air shower classes. We went to the trade shows. That’s where we got our megasonic cleaner that we used and the cascade tanks. Most of those things were not very expensive. Back in those days several semiconductor trade shows were in Austin, so we could drive. It was very economical.

[Assistant] So most everything was off the shelf. It wasn’t anything newly created for JSC?

[User] Most of our equipment was off the shelf, and one Genesis contribution was adapting ultrapure water for cleaning flight hardware and assembling the payload in a Class 10 environment. After the crash, we made another significant contribution by adapting a wafer spin cleaner and using it to megasonically spin clean selected Genesis collector fragments. That works well.

[Assistant] How did you come up with that idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He knew about the water, because we had switched over to cleaning lunar tools that way. We picked a cleanliness level, and what we would need to achieve that cleanliness level. Since it was similar to the semiconductor industry, Don Burnett was agreeable, because they had already been buying materials cleaned by the semiconductor industry for collectors and analyzing them. They were satisfied that they were clean enough. They were probably the cleanest anyone could get things in those days.

[Assistant] How far out had you been working on this clean room? Was it before they started building the spacecraft? Or was it as they were designing and building?

[User] Genesis was initially proposed as Discovery Mission called Suess-Urey. Suess-Urey Mission did not get selected that time, but our sister sample return mission Stardust did. However, many elements of the solar wind mission had been already developed. We’d already written the contamination control plan, of which I was a major contributor. When another round of Discovery competition opened, the basic elements of Suess-Urey plus improvements were submitted under the name Genesis, something that sounded more attractive, I guess. A lot of the Phase A work was already done.\n\n We had already thought about how to do this clean room, so when it was selected late in 1997 it was a matter of getting the Center (JSC) to support the facility, which Eileen Stansbery negotiated and is most knowledgeable about those details. JSC provided engineering support and funding for preparing an existing room in 31N into which a Class 10 cleanroom could be placed. The cost was very modest, since we were just setting a clean room inside of an existing room.

[Assistant] The whole mission wasn’t that expensive. I saw the cost. It’s very modest, especially compared to a Space Shuttle flight.

[User] Oh, yes. But what made it really go was the four or five of us were just all persnickety. We were after every detail. To prepare a clean room for this mission and to permit good analyses at that low sensitivity level, you have to watch all the details, and sometimes that’s not really appreciated.

[Assistant] I’m sure some people, maybe facility people, got a little frustrated at times.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The original Lunar Sample Building was well done.

[Assistant] You mentioned JPL coming out here. Did you have the opportunity to go out to JPL or Lockheed at any time?

[User] I did not go to JPL or LMA during mission development. One reason is that I was extremely busy at JSC getting the cleanroom ready. Eileen participated in meetings at JPL as the principal JSC representative. I interacted more with JPL, Lockheed Martin, and UTTR in the interval after launch and getting ready for recovery. What we were going to do in Utah, and how to get ready for that. There was still more procedures that needed to be written. How did we want to document the handling environment at UTTR, witness plates, etc.? What was the process of retrieving the payload and the sample return capsule?\n\n Genesis sample return capsule was scheduled to re-enter at UTTR at 10 a.m., September 8, 2004. The recovery plan called for a mid-air retrieval of the capsule. After the parachute was deployed, slowing down the descent, the parachute was to be snagged using a hook towed by a helicopter. The helicopter pilot was to snag the parachute, set it gently on the ground to secure it, and then fly the SRC to a clean room that we had set up nearby at UTTR. That cleanroom operated with a few HEPA FFUs and did not have a raised floor, so it was not the level of cleanliness in the JSC Genesis Lab. This cleanroom was placed at UTTR in order to saw open the SRC and put a nitrogen purge on the closed payload canister. Then the payload would go into a shipping box connected to a nitrogen cylinder. It would be transported under nitrogen purge all the way back to Houston, and only be opened when again back in the JSC clean room.

[Assistant] Didn’t quite work.

[User] No it did not. That’s not what happened.

[Assistant] Did you all come up with that idea of that helicopter coming in and making that grab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I watched the re-entry sequence in the high bay of the building (Building 1112) at Dugway next to the cleanroom set up to receive the SRC. I was watching with the crew from JSC, LMA, and JPL who were prepared to open the SRC and, inside the cleanroom, put the nitrogen purge on the sample canister. We watched the capsule tumble downward and smack into the dry lakebed. Our heads turned toward the storage cabinets where we had placed kits for collecting shards off the desert floor, if the recovery did not go as planned. We were already looking at the cabinets, wanting to get the collecting kits, and go to the crash site to recover the collectors. These kits were buckets with pre-numbered containers, mostly bags, gloves, tweezers for cleanly picking up shards, but also included a camera, scale bar, and notebooks.

[Assistant] So you had worked on those contingency plans just in case?

[User] Yes, I brought terrain maps in case we needed them, but the people at Hill Air Force Base, they had their own maps too. I had written a documentation plan, which contained a section on documenting samples collected under this unhappy circumstance of scattered shards. Yes, we were ready for that. I’m not sure all the managers were ready for us to go out there. It took a while for that to settle out, and we workers had to obtain permission to go to the site and start recovering material.

[Assistant] Oh, really? Why was that the case, do you think?

[User] I’m not sure.

[Assistant] I’m sure as a scientist you were ready to get out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I brought terrain maps in case we needed them, but the people at Hill Air Force Base, they had their own maps too. I had written a documentation plan, which contained a section on documenting samples collected under this unhappy circumstance of scattered shards. Yes, we were ready for that. I’m not sure all the managers were ready for us to go out there. It took a while for that to settle out, and we workers had to obtain permission to go to the site and start recovering material.

[Assistant] Oh, really? Why was that the case, do you think?

[User] I’m not sure.

[Assistant] I’m sure as a scientist you were ready to get out there.

[User] We knew what we wanted to do. I guess they wanted to double-check everything, which I thought would have been done already. I am sure those discussions were interesting.

[Assistant] How did you go out and capture this material? Did you have to suit up? Or you could just go out dressed as we are today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was partly a perk for having stayed out there over a month and working long hours.

[Assistant] It’s just for Center leadership, isn’t it, pretty much, the Gulfstream? At least it seems like it.

[User] I think we had an astronaut pilot.

[Assistant] Oh, cool.

[User] It was cool.

[Assistant] What was the reception like here when you finally came back? The Building 31 crew and then the Center as well. Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we had an astronaut pilot.

[Assistant] Oh, cool.

[User] It was cool.

[Assistant] What was the reception like here when you finally came back? The Building 31 crew and then the Center as well. Do you remember?

[User] I remember we landed in a horrid rainstorm at Ellington [Airport, Houston, Texas]. Then we just unloaded the plane, and it must have been vans. I cannot remember that. It was a short trip from Ellington. We had a clean room we had set up for space-exposed hardware, so that’s where we put the boxes that we had unloaded from the Gulfstream at Ellington. Then a portion of those were moved into Genesis Lab.\n\n Lisa [A.] Fletcher (now Lisa Pace) had done an excellent job of logging thousands of samples in Utah. We had prenumbered tags with all these vials. We had a numbering system set up ahead of time for all this, so we had all these numbers to put on clean vials and whatever we put stuff in. All that was in a database, it was all logged in there in Utah, so we could check it out when we got back.

[Assistant] What did you start when you came back? Were you immediately cataloging or curating?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to the Cape to see it launch, but we didn’t launch that day, or the next, and I came home. Eileen was the only one from our team who stayed the rest of the week.

[Assistant] That’s disappointing.

[User] We hustled to get Genesis out the door to Denver, so it could be integrated onto the spacecraft in August of 2000. Then we had to sit and wait a whole year, because there was a Mars launch of some kind that needed that launch window.

[Assistant] Hurry up and wait, I guess.

[User] Hurry up and wait.

[Assistant] How many people are working in the lab these days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We hustled to get Genesis out the door to Denver, so it could be integrated onto the spacecraft in August of 2000. Then we had to sit and wait a whole year, because there was a Mars launch of some kind that needed that launch window.

[Assistant] Hurry up and wait, I guess.

[User] Hurry up and wait.

[Assistant] How many people are working in the lab these days?

[User] There’s two people that we call processors that work with the samples, and they’re doing inventory as we speak.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun. What do you think your biggest challenge is working with the Genesis Program, from the time you started working on the contamination control plan until today? Do you have any major challenges?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hurry up and wait.

[Assistant] How many people are working in the lab these days?

[User] There’s two people that we call processors that work with the samples, and they’re doing inventory as we speak.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun. What do you think your biggest challenge is working with the Genesis Program, from the time you started working on the contamination control plan until today? Do you have any major challenges?

[User] I have to say, I think we all had it lucky. The team worked well together. When I look at other missions and other teams—Don Burnett is the principal reason for this. He still holds a meeting every year of the people who are interested in working on Genesis samples. Many of the people that come are back from the original team. He refers to the team as family. In recovering from the crash, he asked people to collaborate who might normally be competing. They did. One, because they respected Don, and two, they wanted to help salvage the mission science. And I’m beginning to see that it’s unusual for relationships to work that well.\n\n The annual gathering of the science team family is about 40 researchers today. In the 8-10 years after sample return, the team photos show about 80 people. Don once estimated 100 scientists have participated on the science team. There were strong bonds of friendship among the engineers, scientists, and curators that outlasted the mission status of Genesis.\n\n On the 5th anniversary of sample return, about 20 people—many were technicians who helped salvage the samples from the desert floor—made a pilgrimage to UTTR to set a steel obelisk bearing the name “Genesis” and “September 8, 2004” to mark the landing spot. Inside the obelisk a time capsule was placed. The contents are mission documents and procedures, including a video of mid-air retrieval practice. JPL Genesis Project Manager Don Sweetnam personally commissioned the making of the marker. Now retired, Don Sweetnam still follows the Genesis science results.

[Assistant] You attribute that to Don? Or were there other factors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s two people that we call processors that work with the samples, and they’re doing inventory as we speak.

[Assistant] That sounds like fun. What do you think your biggest challenge is working with the Genesis Program, from the time you started working on the contamination control plan until today? Do you have any major challenges?

[User] I have to say, I think we all had it lucky. The team worked well together. When I look at other missions and other teams—Don Burnett is the principal reason for this. He still holds a meeting every year of the people who are interested in working on Genesis samples. Many of the people that come are back from the original team. He refers to the team as family. In recovering from the crash, he asked people to collaborate who might normally be competing. They did. One, because they respected Don, and two, they wanted to help salvage the mission science. And I’m beginning to see that it’s unusual for relationships to work that well.\n\n The annual gathering of the science team family is about 40 researchers today. In the 8-10 years after sample return, the team photos show about 80 people. Don once estimated 100 scientists have participated on the science team. There were strong bonds of friendship among the engineers, scientists, and curators that outlasted the mission status of Genesis.\n\n On the 5th anniversary of sample return, about 20 people—many were technicians who helped salvage the samples from the desert floor—made a pilgrimage to UTTR to set a steel obelisk bearing the name “Genesis” and “September 8, 2004” to mark the landing spot. Inside the obelisk a time capsule was placed. The contents are mission documents and procedures, including a video of mid-air retrieval practice. JPL Genesis Project Manager Don Sweetnam personally commissioned the making of the marker. Now retired, Don Sweetnam still follows the Genesis science results.

[Assistant] You attribute that to Don? Or were there other factors?

[User] Mostly to Don.

[Assistant] Probably holds a special place in your heart then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have to say, I think we all had it lucky. The team worked well together. When I look at other missions and other teams—Don Burnett is the principal reason for this. He still holds a meeting every year of the people who are interested in working on Genesis samples. Many of the people that come are back from the original team. He refers to the team as family. In recovering from the crash, he asked people to collaborate who might normally be competing. They did. One, because they respected Don, and two, they wanted to help salvage the mission science. And I’m beginning to see that it’s unusual for relationships to work that well.\n\n The annual gathering of the science team family is about 40 researchers today. In the 8-10 years after sample return, the team photos show about 80 people. Don once estimated 100 scientists have participated on the science team. There were strong bonds of friendship among the engineers, scientists, and curators that outlasted the mission status of Genesis.\n\n On the 5th anniversary of sample return, about 20 people—many were technicians who helped salvage the samples from the desert floor—made a pilgrimage to UTTR to set a steel obelisk bearing the name “Genesis” and “September 8, 2004” to mark the landing spot. Inside the obelisk a time capsule was placed. The contents are mission documents and procedures, including a video of mid-air retrieval practice. JPL Genesis Project Manager Don Sweetnam personally commissioned the making of the marker. Now retired, Don Sweetnam still follows the Genesis science results.

[Assistant] You attribute that to Don? Or were there other factors?

[User] Mostly to Don.

[Assistant] Probably holds a special place in your heart then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to the Genesis Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly to Don.

[Assistant] Probably holds a special place in your heart then.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to the Genesis Program?

[User] I guess overall I’m kind of a stickler for looking at the composition of everything that goes into the lab and checking it. But I could say they kind of hold me responsible for having them send 6,000 containers to Utah, just in case.

[Assistant] Were you a Girl Scout? That was good contingency planning on your part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What do you think was your most significant contribution to the Genesis Program?

[User] I guess overall I’m kind of a stickler for looking at the composition of everything that goes into the lab and checking it. But I could say they kind of hold me responsible for having them send 6,000 containers to Utah, just in case.

[Assistant] Were you a Girl Scout? That was good contingency planning on your part.

[User] Yes, we ran that one out as much as we could ahead of time.

[Assistant] I think that we have exhausted my questions. I wasn’t sure—might there be something else that you want to talk about in relation to Genesis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I should say that during the several months, and I can't quite remember when the trip was in relationship to the final decision, there were quite a few decisions and quite a few meetings and letter-writing and so on. Joe [Joseph F.] Shea was hired at just about that point to work with Brainerd Holmes. He came over to see me and what he remembers my saying—I don't remember this—I said, "Joe, you've got one major assignment: sell lunar orbit rendezvous."

[Assistant] He was given that task then to do that?

[User] Yes, while working for Brainerd Holmes, I mean, but underlying the specific things he had to do, "Just remember, your job is to sell it." By selling, I meant not out in the public, but I meant in discussions. We were already having discussions with the White House and eventually with Congress, too.

[Assistant] Was it really a matter of getting the opinion of the White House and Congress behind the decision, or was it a matter of—

[User] I think once the White House agreed, I don't think that we had any trouble with the Congress on that.

[Assistant] How about the NASA workforce, the people actually building the launch vehicle and command module and all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, while working for Brainerd Holmes, I mean, but underlying the specific things he had to do, "Just remember, your job is to sell it." By selling, I meant not out in the public, but I meant in discussions. We were already having discussions with the White House and eventually with Congress, too.

[Assistant] Was it really a matter of getting the opinion of the White House and Congress behind the decision, or was it a matter of—

[User] I think once the White House agreed, I don't think that we had any trouble with the Congress on that.

[Assistant] How about the NASA workforce, the people actually building the launch vehicle and command module and all that?

[User] I can't recall any adverse reaction. I mentioned Abe Silverstein, him and some other people at the Lewis [Research] Center [Cleveland, Ohio]. I can't recall.

[Assistant] Speaking of the centers, I know that all of the centers at that time reported to you, is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Then maybe we can then go ahead and wrap up and, hopefully, if you wouldn't mind, I could have the opportunity to talk to you again. We can elaborate on these questions.\n\n When you came into NASA Headquarters, the Mercury Program was already under way.

[User] Yes. The astronauts were selected a year before I arrived.

[Assistant] How were you involved in the Mercury Program, if at all?

[User] Let's see. Was I involved at all?

[Assistant] I understand on a much more top-level organization, you were working with the organization and helping Mr. Webb with the larger decisions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the 76 [joint Gemini VII and Gemini VI mission]. That was the rendezvous one?

[Assistant] That was, I believe, Stafford and [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.], and then [Frank Borman] and [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] was VI and VII. Then I believe IX was—

[User] We had the so-called 76 Project.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] Where [Frank] Borman went up in VII and the idea was to clear the pad, we only had one pad, and put Gemini VI on it and go up and rendezvous. Wasn't that Stafford?

[Assistant] It was, with Wally Schirra as command.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had the so-called 76 Project.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] Where [Frank] Borman went up in VII and the idea was to clear the pad, we only had one pad, and put Gemini VI on it and go up and rendezvous. Wasn't that Stafford?

[Assistant] It was, with Wally Schirra as command.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Then I believe IX, Stafford commanded with Cernan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where [Frank] Borman went up in VII and the idea was to clear the pad, we only had one pad, and put Gemini VI on it and go up and rendezvous. Wasn't that Stafford?

[Assistant] It was, with Wally Schirra as command.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Then I believe IX, Stafford commanded with Cernan.

[User] I forget the specifics of IX.

[Assistant] I believe they tried to dock with the ATDA [Augmented Target Docking Adaptor]—the angry alligator is what they called it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Then I believe IX, Stafford commanded with Cernan.

[User] I forget the specifics of IX.

[Assistant] I believe they tried to dock with the ATDA [Augmented Target Docking Adaptor]—the angry alligator is what they called it.

[User] Right. Okay.

[Assistant] It didn't unfold properly. There was the target docking adapter, the Agena target docking adapter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I forget the specifics of IX.

[Assistant] I believe they tried to dock with the ATDA [Augmented Target Docking Adaptor]—the angry alligator is what they called it.

[User] Right. Okay.

[Assistant] It didn't unfold properly. There was the target docking adapter, the Agena target docking adapter.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] They didn't quite get to dock with it, because, I guess, the cover on top of the ATDA did not unfold properly. In addition to that, they had a few space walks, and I believe Mr. Cernan had some trouble on his space walks where he lost about thirteen pounds just in trying to attempt the work package that was given.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Okay.

[Assistant] It didn't unfold properly. There was the target docking adapter, the Agena target docking adapter.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] They didn't quite get to dock with it, because, I guess, the cover on top of the ATDA did not unfold properly. In addition to that, they had a few space walks, and I believe Mr. Cernan had some trouble on his space walks where he lost about thirteen pounds just in trying to attempt the work package that was given.

[User] Right. Well, right in that period there, we were learning how difficult it was to get outside of a capsule and do anything worthwhile, because you'd try, with a screwdriver, to turn a screw this way and instead of the screw going, you'd start rotating yourself. We realized we had a lot to learn about how to operate in space, human beings operating in space. You had to have special footholds and handholds and all of those kinds of things. I think we did have a special committee to review that. I don't quite remember the specifics.

[Assistant] The reason why I'm asking is because I've read about this Review Board in some of the history books, and they discuss that it was created after the IX mission, and I just wondered why it perhaps wasn't created under the VIII mission, because of the problem you had mentioned. But it didn't specifically say what the Review Board was for or give any of the results. That's why I was very curious if you might be able to shed some light on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] They didn't quite get to dock with it, because, I guess, the cover on top of the ATDA did not unfold properly. In addition to that, they had a few space walks, and I believe Mr. Cernan had some trouble on his space walks where he lost about thirteen pounds just in trying to attempt the work package that was given.

[User] Right. Well, right in that period there, we were learning how difficult it was to get outside of a capsule and do anything worthwhile, because you'd try, with a screwdriver, to turn a screw this way and instead of the screw going, you'd start rotating yourself. We realized we had a lot to learn about how to operate in space, human beings operating in space. You had to have special footholds and handholds and all of those kinds of things. I think we did have a special committee to review that. I don't quite remember the specifics.

[Assistant] The reason why I'm asking is because I've read about this Review Board in some of the history books, and they discuss that it was created after the IX mission, and I just wondered why it perhaps wasn't created under the VIII mission, because of the problem you had mentioned. But it didn't specifically say what the Review Board was for or give any of the results. That's why I was very curious if you might be able to shed some light on that.

[User] Let's see if we can find out.

[Assistant] Maybe I'll do a little bit deeper digging.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, right in that period there, we were learning how difficult it was to get outside of a capsule and do anything worthwhile, because you'd try, with a screwdriver, to turn a screw this way and instead of the screw going, you'd start rotating yourself. We realized we had a lot to learn about how to operate in space, human beings operating in space. You had to have special footholds and handholds and all of those kinds of things. I think we did have a special committee to review that. I don't quite remember the specifics.

[Assistant] The reason why I'm asking is because I've read about this Review Board in some of the history books, and they discuss that it was created after the IX mission, and I just wondered why it perhaps wasn't created under the VIII mission, because of the problem you had mentioned. But it didn't specifically say what the Review Board was for or give any of the results. That's why I was very curious if you might be able to shed some light on that.

[User] Let's see if we can find out.

[Assistant] Maybe I'll do a little bit deeper digging.

[User] Yes. That was a period when we were really trying to lay to rest our ability to rendezvous and dock, as well as to operate, because as a backup, if we somehow or other hadn't been able to latch the two together so that you could crawl from the lunar module through into the capsule for the return, the backup was going to [require the astronauts] to egress the lunar module and go across and go into the [return] capsule, which would have been a fairly tricky maneuver. But in desperation, it was possible. So that's one of the reasons that we had people outside for these so-called EVAs.\n\n [I believe I established a “special group” following Gemini IX to recommend experiments for the final Gemini missions. The purpose of these experiments was to better understand why it was so difficult for an astronaut to function outside the capsule—EVA—and to find ways to minimize the difficulty.]

[Assistant] Well, it seems like it's about time, so why don't we try to stop here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, his [Barnie Fife], right.

[Assistant] That's funny.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a couple questions about the Vibration and Acoustic Test Facility. You mentioned that the acoustics was going to be a major issue, but were there vibration test facilities across the country that you might have considered testing the Apollo Command Module and things in?

[User] Yes. As a matter of fact, we did take some parts of the Command/Service Module out to an acoustic chamber that Ken had in El Segundo. We made use of that. I can't recall the details now on how big it was but it was of sufficient size to test the component or subassembly or assembly that we were testing at the time. That was an acoustic test. Some vibration tests might have been done at Downey [California], I don't recall. But we did most of it there in 49 in our general vibration lab. Then when we got the whole what we called boilerplate structures where you have mass simulators instead of actual systems we did most of that in the vibration tower or in the general vibration lab depending upon what size we were dealing with and so forth and what the test conditions were. But we did all that in 49, yes.

[Assistant] How did your facilities differ from say the facilities out at North American [Aviation] or in El Segundo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for one thing I learned how to work hard and get no sleep. (Laughter) We were going -- like I keep saying and I'm sorry to beat that rabbit over and over, but we were working 24/7 around the clock. Now the good part was that we were all young. We were in our 20s and 30s. We wore short-sleeved white shirts with narrow black ties and crew cuts, flattops, and we were gung-ho and enthusiastic. Another funny one is that a lot of us were single in those early days, and we'd work round the clock and round the clock, and we just couldn't take it any longer. And so we'd jump on an airplane and we'd go down to Acapulco [Mexico] for two, three days and just party. (Laughter)

[Assistant] And not get any more sleep?

[User] Right, right. Still not get any sleep, right. Well at least we had something else going on and lots of laughs and fun. Then we'd come back. I got stories about flying Pan Am and Aeronaves de Mexico down there, but that's probably another time. But anyway so that was a relief for us so we could get back and then hit it again 24/7. But we were working long and hard and going fast. So we didn't have a whole lot of time to do a lot of breathing. Plus doing our traveling like I said, you know, for creating approaches for the simulations, and then of course also helping with the actual hardware, flight hardware. I practically lived in Downey, like a lot of us did. And then later on Bethpage [New York], when we were working with Grumman to be involved intimately with the design and creation, fabrication and test and verification of the space hardware.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a few things about your social life. You mentioned a lot of you were single at that point. Were you still single at that point?

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Were you living here in the Clear Lake [Texas] area or did you live elsewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Were you living here in the Clear Lake [Texas] area or did you live elsewhere?

[User] Well yes when I first came down from Fort Worth and Dallas I was single at that time. As a matter of fact we were in a located up and down Telephone Road, so most of us lived in that area. So there was a guy, [Duke Mitchum], I had run into over at Love Field [Dallas, Texas] at a party after school one night there who was a reservations manager with Tree Top Airlines, or Trans-Texas Airways. We called them Tree Top Airlines. (Laughter) Later became I guess what? TIA, Trans International Airways or something. Anyway he was reservations manager for the company in Dallas and he was going to become reservations manager in Houston, so he said, “Hey why don't we room together, I'm going down there.” So we did. So we got an apartment on Telephone Road, in the I think it was the Skylane Apartments or something. Just lived there, two of us for a while. Then later on we went our separate ways. But yes I lived on Telephone Road.

[Assistant] And when you moved, did you move to the Clear Lake area? Or did you move--?

[User] I kind of stayed up that way when we came down to the site. Golly, I can't remember where all I lived. Apartment living, you know, single guys lives in apartments and so forth. I always just tried to keep busy. I entered myself in the Ph.D. program at University of Houston [Houston, Texas]. So I was taking some classes and teaching some also over on the main campus there. So it was beneficial for me to kind of stay close there as against go ahead and move right away down to the Clear Lake area. So I kind of stayed in that vicinity. I can't remember where all I lived, but somewhere around between Telephone Road and U of H, in that vicinity.

[Assistant] What did you think of Houston when you moved here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was one of the guys that was involved of the couple hundred people or so.

[Assistant] When you ran the test were you running it 24 hours a day?

[User] Yes. Round the clock 24/7 for seven days. I think it was seven days.

[Assistant] And were you keeping those kind of crazy hours since you were in charge?

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. Yes, you know I had other people doing things and a test director and all that. Oh yes I was there, practically lived there, right, right, yes.

[Assistant] Did everything go well or were there any anomalies that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Round the clock 24/7 for seven days. I think it was seven days.

[Assistant] And were you keeping those kind of crazy hours since you were in charge?

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. Yes, you know I had other people doing things and a test director and all that. Oh yes I was there, practically lived there, right, right, yes.

[Assistant] Did everything go well or were there any anomalies that you recall?

[User] The bottom line out of that as I recall was that we had no problems with the Apollo Command/Service Module hardware or equipment. It all performed as advertised, thank goodness, because we didn't have much time, and we didn't have any room for error, and remember it's a constraint on Apollo 8. So we had to get an answer and it had to be right, and if we found something major wrong, (whistle) that hit the whole program schedule. The crew always when they participated in things like this wrote up crew reports.\n\n As I recall Joe and them came up with oh some small items like I think they said there was some water dripping off some of the condensate lines and so they had a little drip, drip, drip and maybe a little wetness. No big deal. They said as far as they were concerned it was no big deal, even though they had 10- or 12-page report. But they were selling it by the pound so they -- no, they had -- I think they had some trouble with some of the food bags. They had some trouble with some of the comm. equipment. I don't remember the details of some of it. But there were minor things. So the bottom line is that it was a success. Everything turned out fine, thank goodness. It was cleared to go and the constraint for Apollo 8 was lifted. And we were good to go to the Moon without a LM and get there and show the Russians that we could do this. Look, we're going around the Moon.

[Assistant] Well, I think this'd be a good place for us to stop and pick up actually with the testing of LM-2 next time. What do you think about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, oh yes. Yes, you know I had other people doing things and a test director and all that. Oh yes I was there, practically lived there, right, right, yes.

[Assistant] Did everything go well or were there any anomalies that you recall?

[User] The bottom line out of that as I recall was that we had no problems with the Apollo Command/Service Module hardware or equipment. It all performed as advertised, thank goodness, because we didn't have much time, and we didn't have any room for error, and remember it's a constraint on Apollo 8. So we had to get an answer and it had to be right, and if we found something major wrong, (whistle) that hit the whole program schedule. The crew always when they participated in things like this wrote up crew reports.\n\n As I recall Joe and them came up with oh some small items like I think they said there was some water dripping off some of the condensate lines and so they had a little drip, drip, drip and maybe a little wetness. No big deal. They said as far as they were concerned it was no big deal, even though they had 10- or 12-page report. But they were selling it by the pound so they -- no, they had -- I think they had some trouble with some of the food bags. They had some trouble with some of the comm. equipment. I don't remember the details of some of it. But there were minor things. So the bottom line is that it was a success. Everything turned out fine, thank goodness. It was cleared to go and the constraint for Apollo 8 was lifted. And we were good to go to the Moon without a LM and get there and show the Russians that we could do this. Look, we're going around the Moon.

[Assistant] Well, I think this'd be a good place for us to stop and pick up actually with the testing of LM-2 next time. What do you think about that?

[User] Okay, okay. That'd be great.

[Assistant] All right. Well thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] So let's start by asking you, why did you actually join the Peace Corps?

[User] I joined the Peace Corps because before Kennedy ever announced the Peace Corps, I had a desire to serve and as a desire to travel. And when he announced it, it was like the perfect answer. Because I'm of that generation. I had read The Ugly American. I wanted to go out into the world and show that not all Americans were ugly and consumer oriented and disregarding of other people.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in a little town in western North Carolina, right at the foot of the mountains, the town of Spindale. I always said it's 70 miles west of Charlotte and 26 miles straight down from Asheville.

[Assistant] So your family had, had you traveled at all? Your family traveled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I joined the Peace Corps because before Kennedy ever announced the Peace Corps, I had a desire to serve and as a desire to travel. And when he announced it, it was like the perfect answer. Because I'm of that generation. I had read The Ugly American. I wanted to go out into the world and show that not all Americans were ugly and consumer oriented and disregarding of other people.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in a little town in western North Carolina, right at the foot of the mountains, the town of Spindale. I always said it's 70 miles west of Charlotte and 26 miles straight down from Asheville.

[Assistant] So your family had, had you traveled at all? Your family traveled?

[User] No. We went to my mother's home in Virginia and back, and that was it. But both of my parents had served during World War II, and both of them sort of imbued a worldview of, you know, everybody's equal and you have to give back to the world.

[Assistant] That's great. How old were you when you applied for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in a little town in western North Carolina, right at the foot of the mountains, the town of Spindale. I always said it's 70 miles west of Charlotte and 26 miles straight down from Asheville.

[Assistant] So your family had, had you traveled at all? Your family traveled?

[User] No. We went to my mother's home in Virginia and back, and that was it. But both of my parents had served during World War II, and both of them sort of imbued a worldview of, you know, everybody's equal and you have to give back to the world.

[Assistant] That's great. How old were you when you applied for the Peace Corps?

[User] I was at the beginning of my senior year in college and, um.

[Assistant] Well, so, yeah, whatever that is, 20, 21.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We went to my mother's home in Virginia and back, and that was it. But both of my parents had served during World War II, and both of them sort of imbued a worldview of, you know, everybody's equal and you have to give back to the world.

[Assistant] That's great. How old were you when you applied for the Peace Corps?

[User] I was at the beginning of my senior year in college and, um.

[Assistant] Well, so, yeah, whatever that is, 20, 21.

[User] I was, I think I had just turned 20 because I didn't turn, I turned 21 in Iran. I was accepted before the end of the semester and assigned Iran. And so I went to my advisor and I switched my senior research for my second semester of my senior year from India to Iran.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And what, where did you go to school?