[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think it was very similar to the Mir stuff, but it wasn’t—here again, because you had another organization that was saying, “What happens to this piece of hardware once you get it on orbit?” And I’m not sure, as we talk here, that we had ever launched even the first piece of hardware for the Station by the time I left. I know we’d done a lot of planning on it, but I’m not sure we’d ever put a piece up there yet.

[Assistant] Okay. It certainly sounds like there was a lot being learned. You said lessons learned. It sounds like a lot of them were on the organizational and management side of things and making the program work.

[User] Yes, and especially on Station, and they have worked out the way they do this, but like you’ve launched people on the Shuttle, and you’ve got a flight director and his team of people that are controlling that mission. Now you’ve got a Station up here. Now you’ve got a flight director and a team of people controlling that mission, and when you get the two together, who’s in charge, and when does this team say what to do, and when does that team say what to do? So they had to work all those out, and I wasn’t a party to all of that, but I can imagine there were some hurdles to overcome there.

[Assistant] I’m sure there were.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you did eventually decide that it was time to retire from NASA. Have you just pretty much retired and are taking time to enjoy yourself, or have you been involved with any contracting or any other—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and especially on Station, and they have worked out the way they do this, but like you’ve launched people on the Shuttle, and you’ve got a flight director and his team of people that are controlling that mission. Now you’ve got a Station up here. Now you’ve got a flight director and a team of people controlling that mission, and when you get the two together, who’s in charge, and when does this team say what to do, and when does that team say what to do? So they had to work all those out, and I wasn’t a party to all of that, but I can imagine there were some hurdles to overcome there.

[Assistant] I’m sure there were.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you did eventually decide that it was time to retire from NASA. Have you just pretty much retired and are taking time to enjoy yourself, or have you been involved with any contracting or any other—

[User] No, I haven’t yet. Had a few nibbles when I first left, but I wasn’t interested in doing anything right then, and I guess the longer you’re gone, the less the nibbles become. So I haven’t had too many nibbles here lately.\n\n A couple of guys had told that me, said, “You ought to draw your line in the sand, say, ‘I’m going at this time,’ then stick with it,” and look forward to it for two or three years, you know, draw your line in the sand two years before you really do it, or three years before you really do it.\n\n And that’s what I did. I said, “I’m going to go at sixty,” and I did. I was still having an awful lot of fun. I’m sure I would still be having a lot of fun out there today if I was still out there, but I drew the line in the sand. I said, “Okay, I’m gonna go at sixty.” So that was it. There was nothing dramatic that made me want to retire on such-and-such a date or anything else except a birthday.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a good reason.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you did eventually decide that it was time to retire from NASA. Have you just pretty much retired and are taking time to enjoy yourself, or have you been involved with any contracting or any other—

[User] No, I haven’t yet. Had a few nibbles when I first left, but I wasn’t interested in doing anything right then, and I guess the longer you’re gone, the less the nibbles become. So I haven’t had too many nibbles here lately.\n\n A couple of guys had told that me, said, “You ought to draw your line in the sand, say, ‘I’m going at this time,’ then stick with it,” and look forward to it for two or three years, you know, draw your line in the sand two years before you really do it, or three years before you really do it.\n\n And that’s what I did. I said, “I’m going to go at sixty,” and I did. I was still having an awful lot of fun. I’m sure I would still be having a lot of fun out there today if I was still out there, but I drew the line in the sand. I said, “Okay, I’m gonna go at sixty.” So that was it. There was nothing dramatic that made me want to retire on such-and-such a date or anything else except a birthday.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a good reason.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] By then, you’ve earned a right to just kind of do whatever you want to do for a while, play some golf.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] By then, you’ve earned a right to just kind of do whatever you want to do for a while, play some golf.

[User] With retirement in mind, I took up golf again. I never had time to play golf after we got to Houston. I think I played once, and I had learned to play again when I was in Seattle [Washington] at Boeing. The great Northwest up there, it stays light so late in the day during the summer that you could get in your eighteen holes after work, and some of the guys in the office played. So I took it up and played some in Seattle, but after I’d been here to Houston, I played one time, and then it just took up too much time, didn’t have time to do that. So I took it up with the idea that I was going to retire and I’d try it and see if I enjoyed it again, and I did, and it’s good.

[Assistant] Good, okay, everybody should have a hobby like that.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career at NASA, we’ve talked about several of the people that you worked with, but is there anybody in particular that you’d like to mention that either had a big impact on your career personally or that you think was very instrumental in the space program as a whole?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was different. It’s different than the way things are today anyway.

[Assistant] Very different, and, you’re right, it does take that good family support to make it possible to do all of this and know that they’re at home taking care of—the wives are at home taking care of the family and any little details that are coming up.

[User] I’m sure I missed a lot with the kids, and we weren’t totally isolated. I mean, I was involved in the Little League and stuff like that, but there were a lot of nights that we probably didn’t get home until the little ones were in bed already.

[Assistant] Did your kids understand what you were working on?

[User] You asked that the last time, and I think now that, no, they did not, and I get that just from maybe some of the questions that they ask now. So yes, I think, no, they didn’t. They just knew Daddy had a job and Daddy went to work.

[Assistant] Of course, they were immersed in their own community with all their friends and stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sure I missed a lot with the kids, and we weren’t totally isolated. I mean, I was involved in the Little League and stuff like that, but there were a lot of nights that we probably didn’t get home until the little ones were in bed already.

[Assistant] Did your kids understand what you were working on?

[User] You asked that the last time, and I think now that, no, they did not, and I get that just from maybe some of the questions that they ask now. So yes, I think, no, they didn’t. They just knew Daddy had a job and Daddy went to work.

[Assistant] Of course, they were immersed in their own community with all their friends and stuff.

[User] True, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Would have fathers doing the same thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You asked that the last time, and I think now that, no, they did not, and I get that just from maybe some of the questions that they ask now. So yes, I think, no, they didn’t. They just knew Daddy had a job and Daddy went to work.

[Assistant] Of course, they were immersed in their own community with all their friends and stuff.

[User] True, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Would have fathers doing the same thing.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, they’ll get a chance to listen to all this and find out details about what you were doing. [Loe laughs]\n\n Well, looking back over your career at NASA, what would you consider to be your biggest challenge, and then, alternately, your greatest accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] True, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Would have fathers doing the same thing.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, they’ll get a chance to listen to all this and find out details about what you were doing. [Loe laughs]\n\n Well, looking back over your career at NASA, what would you consider to be your biggest challenge, and then, alternately, your greatest accomplishment?

[User] That’s a tough one. The biggest challenge was probably, I guess I would say the total Apollo Program experience. You know, we were definitely doing things that nobody had ever done before. See, I guess I would have to say Apollo.\n\n And greatest accomplishment—I don’t know, all of it lumped together—nothing really sticks out in my mind that—getting that runway fixed down at KSC was a good thing, but it’s certainly not anything I did single-handedly or anything, but just to be involved in that was a good thing for the program. It saved a lot of time and money. But I don’t know. I can’t think of any one thing.

[Assistant] You certainly did have a number of important contributions and things that you accomplished while you were working at NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, they’ll get a chance to listen to all this and find out details about what you were doing. [Loe laughs]\n\n Well, looking back over your career at NASA, what would you consider to be your biggest challenge, and then, alternately, your greatest accomplishment?

[User] That’s a tough one. The biggest challenge was probably, I guess I would say the total Apollo Program experience. You know, we were definitely doing things that nobody had ever done before. See, I guess I would have to say Apollo.\n\n And greatest accomplishment—I don’t know, all of it lumped together—nothing really sticks out in my mind that—getting that runway fixed down at KSC was a good thing, but it’s certainly not anything I did single-handedly or anything, but just to be involved in that was a good thing for the program. It saved a lot of time and money. But I don’t know. I can’t think of any one thing.

[Assistant] You certainly did have a number of important contributions and things that you accomplished while you were working at NASA.

[User] Yes, sometimes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to take this chance to ask Sandra and Kirk if they have any questions if that’s all right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a tough one. The biggest challenge was probably, I guess I would say the total Apollo Program experience. You know, we were definitely doing things that nobody had ever done before. See, I guess I would have to say Apollo.\n\n And greatest accomplishment—I don’t know, all of it lumped together—nothing really sticks out in my mind that—getting that runway fixed down at KSC was a good thing, but it’s certainly not anything I did single-handedly or anything, but just to be involved in that was a good thing for the program. It saved a lot of time and money. But I don’t know. I can’t think of any one thing.

[Assistant] You certainly did have a number of important contributions and things that you accomplished while you were working at NASA.

[User] Yes, sometimes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to take this chance to ask Sandra and Kirk if they have any questions if that’s all right.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant]
Sandra? Kirk?

Actually, yes, I have a couple of questions, if you don’t mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, sometimes, yes.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to take this chance to ask Sandra and Kirk if they have any questions if that’s all right.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant]
Sandra? Kirk?

Actually, yes, I have a couple of questions, if you don’t mind.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Earlier, you mentioned that you were involved in the landing tests. Can you go into some detail about exactly what kind of processes you went through? You know, you didn’t really explain what you were doing to prepare for the flights of the\n\n Enterprise\n\n ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Earlier, you mentioned that you were involved in the landing tests. Can you go into some detail about exactly what kind of processes you went through? You know, you didn’t really explain what you were doing to prepare for the flights of the\n\n Enterprise\n\n ?

[User] Oh, in the Approach and Landing Test.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] My recollection from a branch chief’s standpoint was that most of the effort involved in getting the mission rules written and getting the procedures written fell to the flight director, and that was Don Puddy. It was almost like times were changing back then. The branch—our responsibility had sort of become making sure that we gave Puddy a good, qualified flight controller, and then Puddy sort of melded the team together that he needed. So we gave him Jack Knight, and Jack was obviously the most qualified EECOM or SMOKHEE that we had. I say obviously, not obviously. Jack was a super guy.\n\n But as far as being involved in the, “Here’s gonna be our go, no-go points, and here’s gonna be—you know, I need to make sure everybody’s a go X number of seconds before we actually release them, and here’s what we’re gonna concentrate on getting down and everything,” that more fell to Don and his team that he put together.

[Assistant] The other is—I don’t know if it would be too technical for me to understand, but you were mentioning the difference between Apollo and Shuttle in releasing heat. Can you explain those two differences, how fuel cells were able to release heat between the Apollo and the Shuttle for somebody who doesn’t really comprehend the technicalities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My recollection from a branch chief’s standpoint was that most of the effort involved in getting the mission rules written and getting the procedures written fell to the flight director, and that was Don Puddy. It was almost like times were changing back then. The branch—our responsibility had sort of become making sure that we gave Puddy a good, qualified flight controller, and then Puddy sort of melded the team together that he needed. So we gave him Jack Knight, and Jack was obviously the most qualified EECOM or SMOKHEE that we had. I say obviously, not obviously. Jack was a super guy.\n\n But as far as being involved in the, “Here’s gonna be our go, no-go points, and here’s gonna be—you know, I need to make sure everybody’s a go X number of seconds before we actually release them, and here’s what we’re gonna concentrate on getting down and everything,” that more fell to Don and his team that he put together.

[Assistant] The other is—I don’t know if it would be too technical for me to understand, but you were mentioning the difference between Apollo and Shuttle in releasing heat. Can you explain those two differences, how fuel cells were able to release heat between the Apollo and the Shuttle for somebody who doesn’t really comprehend the technicalities?

[User] Let me think. Let me think. You know, it may not have been that big a difference. I guess in both cases, they interfaced with the primary cooling system—the coolant loop. So it may not have been that different now that I think on it. Yes, I may have misspoke there, because now that you ask, I’m not sure I can pinpoint any big differences specifically.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I’d have to think on that for a while. But both of them, as I recall, both of them interchanged heat with the main cooling system, and we dissipated that heat either through radiators or through water boilers or flash evaporators. So, yes, there may not have been that big a difference.

[Assistant] Okay. That’s all I have. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Oh okay.

[User] Just in case.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And, in fact, when I went over to Zaragoza, we timed it so that it was right before a mission, so that the NASA guy, Bobby Fleming [phonetic], who was GOM, the ground operations manager, Bobby was going to be the GOM at that site at Zaragoza. So we met him in Madrid and drove over to Zaragoza. And my wife went with me. I paid for her to go over with me. It was a super opportunity for her to see Spain and for me to see Spain.\n\n So while we were there, we had gone to Zaragoza to sign the agreement, and then we another site at Moron, which is outside of Sevilla, Spain. So we then drove from Zaragoza to Moron and was there at Moron for launch day to watch their preparation—how they got ready and everything for the launch. It turns out we didn’t launch that one. Something happened—I don’t know what, but we didn’t get it off that day, so we had to come on home.\n\n But that was a good experience getting to see those two sites. Now, the two sites in Africa, I never did see—the one at Banjul in the Gambia and the one up in Morocco— Ben Guerur. I never saw either one of those.

[Assistant] Well, it certainly sounds like a unique opportunity, though, as you said, to go see Spain.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, nylon rope.

[Assistant] Oh okay. And so the Orbiter wouldn’t sustain too much damage by running into those.

[User] Yes, it did hurt a little bit. It probably damaged some tiles, but it was better than going off the end.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So, yes, that was developed back sometime after\n\n Challenger\n\n , I think.

[Assistant] It does operate in conjunction with the parachute as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did hurt a little bit. It probably damaged some tiles, but it was better than going off the end.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So, yes, that was developed back sometime after\n\n Challenger\n\n , I think.

[Assistant] It does operate in conjunction with the parachute as well?

[User] Actually, that was before we put the drag chute on. Yes, the drag chute came on later, very much later. But, yes, they were in conjunction with the drag chute.

[Assistant] Oh okay. That’s interesting. I hadn’t been aware of those before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yes, that was developed back sometime after\n\n Challenger\n\n , I think.

[Assistant] It does operate in conjunction with the parachute as well?

[User] Actually, that was before we put the drag chute on. Yes, the drag chute came on later, very much later. But, yes, they were in conjunction with the drag chute.

[Assistant] Oh okay. That’s interesting. I hadn’t been aware of those before.

[User] Yes, they’re only at remote sites. We used to have two sites in the Pacific also, one at Hawaii and one at Guam. And we finally convinced ourselves sometime in the Shuttle Program that we didn’t need those. Of course, it cost money to send people over there, every mission, and then it cost money just to maintain the equipment and stuff. So we finally turned down the Pacific sites, and the reason we did it—we convinced ourselves we would always be able to get back. We couldn’t think of any scenario, a reasonable scenario that would make us not be able to get back to KSC or Edwards or White Sands.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting. Well, is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention for any of your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, that was before we put the drag chute on. Yes, the drag chute came on later, very much later. But, yes, they were in conjunction with the drag chute.

[Assistant] Oh okay. That’s interesting. I hadn’t been aware of those before.

[User] Yes, they’re only at remote sites. We used to have two sites in the Pacific also, one at Hawaii and one at Guam. And we finally convinced ourselves sometime in the Shuttle Program that we didn’t need those. Of course, it cost money to send people over there, every mission, and then it cost money just to maintain the equipment and stuff. So we finally turned down the Pacific sites, and the reason we did it—we convinced ourselves we would always be able to get back. We couldn’t think of any scenario, a reasonable scenario that would make us not be able to get back to KSC or Edwards or White Sands.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting. Well, is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention for any of your career?

[User] I’ll probably think of that tomorrow or the next day or something.

[Assistant] Well, we could always add that in anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they’re only at remote sites. We used to have two sites in the Pacific also, one at Hawaii and one at Guam. And we finally convinced ourselves sometime in the Shuttle Program that we didn’t need those. Of course, it cost money to send people over there, every mission, and then it cost money just to maintain the equipment and stuff. So we finally turned down the Pacific sites, and the reason we did it—we convinced ourselves we would always be able to get back. We couldn’t think of any scenario, a reasonable scenario that would make us not be able to get back to KSC or Edwards or White Sands.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting. Well, is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention for any of your career?

[User] I’ll probably think of that tomorrow or the next day or something.

[Assistant] Well, we could always add that in anyway.

[User] No, I can’t think of anything.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, we appreciate you very much coming and sharing this with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we just had them all lined up and put in various seats, and that's how we worked. I didn't know if we were going to be able to do it or not, but we pulled it off.

[Assistant] You managed to work with all those contractors, too.

[User] All the contractors and all the other centers.

[Assistant] Were there any contractors that stand out in your mind from working with them, as being either exceptionally good at this or not?

[User] They all were good. Of course, I think that we relied very heavily on North American Aviation, because they at that time were really our lead contractor. So we relied very heavily on North American, and I have to say they probably were the driving force that helped us. But Grumman was good. They all were good. If I had to single out, the best one would be North American.

[Assistant] Tell us more about your interaction with MIT and the work that they did, because sometimes you don't hear as much about the work that they did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't really know. I think I've covered an awful lot. I'm sure I left a lot of things out. When you start talking about people, there's always a danger you're going to leave somebody out, and I probably have left somebody out. One person I know of very distinctly I left out is Bob [Robert F.] Thompson, who was head of the Shuttle Program, who I worked for. Bob was very key in the program, in getting the lead center going. If you want to talk about a person who really made the lead center work, it was really Bob Thompson. Bob, I think, was really a key n making the lead-center concept work. He and Chris Kraft, who was the Center director, Bob was the program manager, really made the lead center work. Lead center depends on a lot of people, and I think Bob was a key man in making that a success and making my job easy.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you worked on the command module at Skylab. Were you involved with developing the rescue vehicle, the command module vehicle that was modified so if they needed to do a rescue?

[User] Yes, I was. We implemented the hardware into that, yes. Requirements were established and then I was essentially building it, in that context.

[Assistant] There's not much reference to the rescue vehicle that we've come across. Was there a time during one of the missions, maybe the last one, where they looked at possibly needing to launch that?

[User] As I recall, there was, but I honestly don't remember the details of it. I do think there was a time when they thought they would have to go into—the other point was, I think, the other question was how much power did they have to keep on it to make it useable and that type of thing. Those were the issues. I think at one point in time there was a thought of using it, but it's very vague. I have to be honest, it's very vague in my mind.

[Assistant] When you first started out, you mentioned that these folks from NASA were coming down and you asked, "Who's NASA?" Would you ever have imagined where this would all lead to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Can you explain that to us, the reasoning for that, and how did you feel about it?

[User] Why didn't we, with the Shuttle, go unmanned before we went manned? Well, that's a very interesting question, and it was debated very hot and heavy and long and furious. It was very much like the question was asked about solids versus liquids. There's almost no right answer, because history said we always went unmanned prior to manned.\n\n The real issue that swayed us is that if you look at doing a robotic mission, it's much easier to do a robotic mission once you've done it manned. Of course, it was very hard to do. We felt the failures modes were very significant, extremely significant, and we could not do a reliable unmanned mission because the man was too much a significant part of the system. Now, interestingly enough, I think today we could easily do a robotic Shuttle mission. Other people may not agree with me. But mainly because we know what the man has to do. So I think it was fought long and hard, but that was the decision, and it was fairly unanimous at the Johnson Space Center that that was the right decision to do, although there were some critics of it. I think, as Chris Kraft said when he got on the microphone at control center after we landed, he said, "We're infinitely smarter today." And that probably summed it up. We were infinitely smarter today that we did land safe and sound after having done a manned mission first. That's a very, very good question. It's a very hard question to answer.

[Assistant] You've had an amazing career, and we appreciate you sharing the highlights of that with us. We've enjoyed it a lot.

[User] I've enjoyed talking to you. If you want to talk again, if you find something you want to talk about, we can probably get together at the Johnson Space Center or at College Station.

[Assistant] Great. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took a job with the ACRV Program Office back in, I guess, it was '92.

[Assistant] ACRV?

[User] Assured Crew Return Vehicle. At the time they were looking at both putting an ACRV on the Space Station Freedom. They were looking at a couple different options. One was a U.S.-made, another was a European-made, and another was a Soyuz capsule. So what I did was first I worked with the Europeans and then eventually I went over to start working with the Russians. That program ended in December of '93 as the [Space Station] Freedom Program ended, basically. With the Russian experience, I interviewed with Keith who was starting to build his office on the Russian segment, Keith Riley [phonetic]. So he invited me to come on over and try it out. So I started out as basically just one of the integration team in the Russian segment.

[Assistant] What's your job today?

[User] Well, right now I have what used to be Keith's job. I'm the head all the Russian elements, and basically in charge of making sure that the Russian segment is integrated with the U.S. segment.

[Assistant] That's great. Can you describe at a necessarily high level for the sixth grader in Peoria what the purpose and the functional requirements are for the control module and for the FGB?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Krunichev, of course, has been a major aerospace manufacturer for years. In fact, they built bombers in World War II. The rocket factory they now have is actually built on what used to be the runway for their airplane manufacturing system. So they've been a major part of the Russian Space Program. They've built vehicles much like the FGB before. In fact, if you look at the Mir modules, other than the base block, they look a lot like the FGB. The aft part does.\n\n Energia, which, of course, is the integrator for the whole space station, provides a lot of the parts of the FGB, including pumps, valves. All the software integration is done by Energia. So they play a big part in that in that vehicle, as well.

[Assistant] That's NPO Energia, another Russian aerospace contractor. Mark, had the contract between Boeing and Krunichev been let when you arrived?

[User] No, I first came on right at the beginning of '94, and so it had not been. We were still struggling with who was going to pay for the FGB and how that was all going to be worked.

[Assistant] [unclear].

[User] Yes, that's exactly where I was going.

[Assistant] What then was the origin and idea for the Russians to build for us and us to pay the bill?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I first came on right at the beginning of '94, and so it had not been. We were still struggling with who was going to pay for the FGB and how that was all going to be worked.

[Assistant] [unclear].

[User] Yes, that's exactly where I was going.

[Assistant] What then was the origin and idea for the Russians to build for us and us to pay the bill?

[User] Well, to get the full story, I think Doug's the right guy to talk to, but I'll give you what I know. In the end, my understanding is the Russians came back, after our initial discussions, and believed that the FGB was really not required, that we could have started building off the service module, which is kind of what had happened on Mir. I think Doug can explain more why we decided to do that, although in the end I think it was a good decision. RSA [Russian Space Agency] then basically said, "Well, if you really want to do this thing, then you can pay for it."\n\n In the end, we agreed that the United States paid for development, design, development, and manufacturing of the FGB. Well, RSA then pays for operations, sustaining, and for launch.

[Assistant] By Doug that you refer to, you mean Doug Drewry [phonetic], of course. Let me change gears here just a little bit. Now, I'm not specifically talking about the FGB after right now, because we sent money through our prime direct to the manufacturer, a direct line. We basically had no monetary or programmatic problems, which we'll come back in a minute. But could you discuss and sketch the general funding problems which are related to the Russian flight hardware products these days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's exactly where I was going.

[Assistant] What then was the origin and idea for the Russians to build for us and us to pay the bill?

[User] Well, to get the full story, I think Doug's the right guy to talk to, but I'll give you what I know. In the end, my understanding is the Russians came back, after our initial discussions, and believed that the FGB was really not required, that we could have started building off the service module, which is kind of what had happened on Mir. I think Doug can explain more why we decided to do that, although in the end I think it was a good decision. RSA [Russian Space Agency] then basically said, "Well, if you really want to do this thing, then you can pay for it."\n\n In the end, we agreed that the United States paid for development, design, development, and manufacturing of the FGB. Well, RSA then pays for operations, sustaining, and for launch.

[Assistant] By Doug that you refer to, you mean Doug Drewry [phonetic], of course. Let me change gears here just a little bit. Now, I'm not specifically talking about the FGB after right now, because we sent money through our prime direct to the manufacturer, a direct line. We basically had no monetary or programmatic problems, which we'll come back in a minute. But could you discuss and sketch the general funding problems which are related to the Russian flight hardware products these days?

[User] You mean, basically the service module and other—okay.

[Assistant] Trace the [unclear].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. As much as they get satisfied.

[Assistant] As much as they’re ever satisfied?

[User] The truth is every congressional delegation wants all the money sent to them.

[Assistant] Right, and that’s why they’re elected.

[User] We’re like, “Wait a minute. No, that’s not going to happen.” We had an interesting debate—well, not debate. It took us two or three years to finally just get the Alabama congressional delegation to realize that all of the money under SLS cannot just go to the launch vehicle and the Marshall Space Flight Center. Some of it had to go to Kennedy Space Center to be able to be ready to launch a rocket. What good is it to build a rocket if you’re not going to have a place to launch it? I’m not kidding. The discussion was at that level with some people.

[Assistant] You are talking to elected officials and not engineers. I’m sure that has something to do with it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The truth is every congressional delegation wants all the money sent to them.

[Assistant] Right, and that’s why they’re elected.

[User] We’re like, “Wait a minute. No, that’s not going to happen.” We had an interesting debate—well, not debate. It took us two or three years to finally just get the Alabama congressional delegation to realize that all of the money under SLS cannot just go to the launch vehicle and the Marshall Space Flight Center. Some of it had to go to Kennedy Space Center to be able to be ready to launch a rocket. What good is it to build a rocket if you’re not going to have a place to launch it? I’m not kidding. The discussion was at that level with some people.

[Assistant] You are talking to elected officials and not engineers. I’m sure that has something to do with it.

[User] They certainly come at it from a different perspective.

[Assistant] Yes. I can imagine. Probably quite an education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’re like, “Wait a minute. No, that’s not going to happen.” We had an interesting debate—well, not debate. It took us two or three years to finally just get the Alabama congressional delegation to realize that all of the money under SLS cannot just go to the launch vehicle and the Marshall Space Flight Center. Some of it had to go to Kennedy Space Center to be able to be ready to launch a rocket. What good is it to build a rocket if you’re not going to have a place to launch it? I’m not kidding. The discussion was at that level with some people.

[Assistant] You are talking to elected officials and not engineers. I’m sure that has something to do with it.

[User] They certainly come at it from a different perspective.

[Assistant] Yes. I can imagine. Probably quite an education.

[User] Trust me. My last five years, Sandra, at Headquarters was quite an education.

[Assistant] It usually is, going to Headquarters after working at a Center, I think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They certainly come at it from a different perspective.

[Assistant] Yes. I can imagine. Probably quite an education.

[User] Trust me. My last five years, Sandra, at Headquarters was quite an education.

[Assistant] It usually is, going to Headquarters after working at a Center, I think.

[User] What was interesting is this was actually my second or third trip through Headquarters. You got inklings of it before, but boy, not like this last time.

[Assistant] You mentioned that they didn’t necessarily understand that you had to change things at KSC. Can you talk about some of that ground support and those changes? I know we hear a lot about the SLS and a lot about the Orion, but what was going on at KSC and the changes that had to be made? I know the launch pad was changed and some other things. Of course I think they had to refigure buildings for the stack. Can you talk about some of that for a few minutes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nor is it likely to. If it does, we got some interesting other problems to deal with.

[Assistant] More than spaceflight, that’s for sure.

[User] I know Kirasich could give you a long list of the new technology that’s in Orion and the SLS guys could give you a long list of the new technology in there. I think those teams are done a disservice when the simplistic view of well, if it looks the same there’s no new technology.\n\n It looks the same because the physics are the same. The new technology is inside. That simplistic view that I hear out in the press and other places every now and then bothers me. You probably could pick up on that.

[Assistant] Yes, I think so. Yes, they can’t see what’s inside the cockpit or the digital changes and everything that’s happened like you said.

[User] What they don’t understand, friction stir welding for example, we started using it on External Tank. We refined it for SLS. SLS is actually using the largest friction stir welding machine in the world. That technology is starting to make its way into the shipbuilding, aircraft manufacturing, other places, because they see that it’s successful. NASA has figured out how to use it and has worked out a lot of the technical kinks. Now it starts to show up in other industries, which you don’t hear a lot about.

[Assistant] They’re not the things that people want to read about. They’re not all that exciting to the normal person.\n\n [Interview scheduled time ended and second interview was scheduled.]\n\n All right. I appreciate it. I will talk to you then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Phase One, my involvement actually started as far back as the Space Station redesign team, and Phase One was an outgrowth of really of the redesign effort. One of the things we were looking for at this particular point—this is now 1993. I was not part of NASA, although I was part of the redesign team. What we were looking for was what was an interim step to the International Space Station from where we were to now in the pure Space Shuttle Program. We actually started out, what can be the Gemini to Apollo, Mercury to Apollo, that we had to do that within the Space Station Program. What came up very rapidly, since we were now partnering with the Russians, is can we use the Mir Space Station to learn better how to live and operate in space, using the Space Station.

[Assistant] When did you actually become involved with NASA?

[User] I became an official card-carrying NASA civil servant on December 28 or 1993, and was actually formally appointed to the associate deputy administrator job. I believe it was announced sometime in early January of '94.

[Assistant] What were your roles and responsibilities when you first started?

[User] My real role as the associate deputy administrator was to function more as a chief of staff, chief operating officer, and really to work with the day-to-day activities across all of the enterprises of NASA and in all of the functional areas. However, human space flight comprises such a large portion of NASA on a proportional basis, my daily activities, a lot of it evolved around Station, Shuttle, and Phase One.

[Assistant] Did your efforts on the Redesign Committee help you in this new position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I became an official card-carrying NASA civil servant on December 28 or 1993, and was actually formally appointed to the associate deputy administrator job. I believe it was announced sometime in early January of '94.

[Assistant] What were your roles and responsibilities when you first started?

[User] My real role as the associate deputy administrator was to function more as a chief of staff, chief operating officer, and really to work with the day-to-day activities across all of the enterprises of NASA and in all of the functional areas. However, human space flight comprises such a large portion of NASA on a proportional basis, my daily activities, a lot of it evolved around Station, Shuttle, and Phase One.

[Assistant] Did your efforts on the Redesign Committee help you in this new position?

[User] A little bit, mainly because the redesign, I had a little better base in where we were really going on Space Station. I had not been involved in Freedom at any point, and so at least I had some idea of the basic design on Space Station, where it was going, how the Russians had become involved, etc.

[Assistant] What were the goals of Phase One when you became involved with the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My real role as the associate deputy administrator was to function more as a chief of staff, chief operating officer, and really to work with the day-to-day activities across all of the enterprises of NASA and in all of the functional areas. However, human space flight comprises such a large portion of NASA on a proportional basis, my daily activities, a lot of it evolved around Station, Shuttle, and Phase One.

[Assistant] Did your efforts on the Redesign Committee help you in this new position?

[User] A little bit, mainly because the redesign, I had a little better base in where we were really going on Space Station. I had not been involved in Freedom at any point, and so at least I had some idea of the basic design on Space Station, where it was going, how the Russians had become involved, etc.

[Assistant] What were the goals of Phase One when you became involved with the program?

[User] Fundamentally how to operate for long-duration space flight. You know the Shuttle, as a general rule, goes up something like seven to fourteen days. Our entire time, I think, on Skylab had been, what, eighty-nine days, something like that, and we knew that we couldn't operate minute to minute as we do on Shuttle. So how are we going to modify our operating procedures? How are we going to train for long-duration space flight? What can we learn by a continuous human presence, American human presence up there? Those were the primary objectives.\n\n There were a number of scientific objectives, mostly medical, with regards to humans, but there were some other science conducted, but those were absolutely secondary. I think, in retrospect, the media lost sight of that, but countless occasions, as Dan Goldin would say and we would all say, the science is purely secondary. We are really interested and here to learn how to live and work.

[Assistant] Can you give us some of the episodes and the events that led to the reality from the idea and how it moved in to working to becoming something successful for NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was definitely not involved in the day-to-day activities. I was actually physically [located] and functioned as a part of the Office of the Administrator. There were three individuals up there: the Administrator, Dan Goldin; Acting Deputy Adminstrator, Jack Dailey,and myself. I became the primary interface between the Office of Space Flight, for a number of reasons, the simplest of which, I had more background in that particular area than either Daley or Dan Goldin. So, consequently, I was just the easiest conduit. So I normally got the first call of anything that was going on, and then in some cases I would say, "That's fine. Proceed," in some cases I'd say, "We need to bring the administrator in. We need to prepare a brief. We need to do this, we need to do that." But I was not involved at all in the day-to-day activities. It was all done either at Headquarters early on or ultimately ended up—well, in fact, Phase One, almost from day one, was managed entirely out of Johnson [Space Center].

[Assistant] Did some of those first calls include the fire?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And the collision?

[User] The fire and the collision. My favorite call was the 2 a.m. on the East Coast time that I received that they had abandoned the Space Station, which it turns out was not in regard to either the fire or the depressurization; it was the computer had shut down and they'd actually gone in the Soyuz just to maintain attitude control. It was fundamentally a nonevent, but the report that I had received, the initial report, that they had abandoned the Space Station and were returning to Earth in the Soyuz capsule, which, like I said, turned out to be erroneous.

[Assistant] Did your duties take you to Russia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And the collision?

[User] The fire and the collision. My favorite call was the 2 a.m. on the East Coast time that I received that they had abandoned the Space Station, which it turns out was not in regard to either the fire or the depressurization; it was the computer had shut down and they'd actually gone in the Soyuz just to maintain attitude control. It was fundamentally a nonevent, but the report that I had received, the initial report, that they had abandoned the Space Station and were returning to Earth in the Soyuz capsule, which, like I said, turned out to be erroneous.

[Assistant] Did your duties take you to Russia?

[User] They did. I made one of the very early trips in March of 1994, originally planned as a strap-hanger, but the administrator was involved in a bicycle accident, so I went from the strap-hanger role to leading the delegation role, and we conducted meetings with RSA [Russian Space Agency] over a period of about three days, which included Yuri Koptev, Alex Krasnov, and Valery Ryumin were the three principals that we dealt with. We signed the protocol. Most of it dealt with Station. There was about one day, most of one day was Phase One. Myself, George Abbey, Arnold Nicogosian, and Will Trafton were on that trip.

[Assistant] Was this your first time to Russia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The fire and the collision. My favorite call was the 2 a.m. on the East Coast time that I received that they had abandoned the Space Station, which it turns out was not in regard to either the fire or the depressurization; it was the computer had shut down and they'd actually gone in the Soyuz just to maintain attitude control. It was fundamentally a nonevent, but the report that I had received, the initial report, that they had abandoned the Space Station and were returning to Earth in the Soyuz capsule, which, like I said, turned out to be erroneous.

[Assistant] Did your duties take you to Russia?

[User] They did. I made one of the very early trips in March of 1994, originally planned as a strap-hanger, but the administrator was involved in a bicycle accident, so I went from the strap-hanger role to leading the delegation role, and we conducted meetings with RSA [Russian Space Agency] over a period of about three days, which included Yuri Koptev, Alex Krasnov, and Valery Ryumin were the three principals that we dealt with. We signed the protocol. Most of it dealt with Station. There was about one day, most of one day was Phase One. Myself, George Abbey, Arnold Nicogosian, and Will Trafton were on that trip.

[Assistant] Was this your first time to Russia?

[User] First time to Russia, yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever return after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did. I made one of the very early trips in March of 1994, originally planned as a strap-hanger, but the administrator was involved in a bicycle accident, so I went from the strap-hanger role to leading the delegation role, and we conducted meetings with RSA [Russian Space Agency] over a period of about three days, which included Yuri Koptev, Alex Krasnov, and Valery Ryumin were the three principals that we dealt with. We signed the protocol. Most of it dealt with Station. There was about one day, most of one day was Phase One. Myself, George Abbey, Arnold Nicogosian, and Will Trafton were on that trip.

[Assistant] Was this your first time to Russia?

[User] First time to Russia, yes.

[Assistant] Did you ever return after that?

[User] No, have not been back.

[Assistant] Could you give us a little more detail about that meeting and how it went, since that was your first encounter with the Russians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, have not been back.

[Assistant] Could you give us a little more detail about that meeting and how it went, since that was your first encounter with the Russians?

[User] That was not my first encounter with the Russians. First meeting in Russia.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Well, there were some interesting points. If I remember right, we actually flew in and arrived on a Sunday, and the meeting was supposed to start Monday morning. We were scheduled for nine o'clock, and they kept us waiting till about nine-thirty, and I made a very loud announcement, if they didn't meet with us in fifteen minutes, we were leaving, much to the people being appalled all around me. Then lo and behold, fifteen minutes later, the doors magically opened and we were ushering into Yuri's office.\n\n The meetings were very cordial and very professional. I don't think there's any doubt that—I was impressed with their knowledge in the space flight business, that they wanted to be partners in the Space Station. I think there were a few pride issues that we saw, not from Yuri. I think Valeriy Ryumin was one. I think he had some concerns. I felt like he felt it should have been the Russian Space Station, of which we were a partner, or they should have had the lead, if you will. But the meetings were very professional, very cordial, very informative. Like I said, their protocols were signed.\n\n I was a little surprised at the conditions in Russia. This is in '94, and I haven't been back, so I had expected a little more U.S.-like. Maybe it was the time of the year, because March was sort of dingy.

[Assistant] A short trip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was not my first encounter with the Russians. First meeting in Russia.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Well, there were some interesting points. If I remember right, we actually flew in and arrived on a Sunday, and the meeting was supposed to start Monday morning. We were scheduled for nine o'clock, and they kept us waiting till about nine-thirty, and I made a very loud announcement, if they didn't meet with us in fifteen minutes, we were leaving, much to the people being appalled all around me. Then lo and behold, fifteen minutes later, the doors magically opened and we were ushering into Yuri's office.\n\n The meetings were very cordial and very professional. I don't think there's any doubt that—I was impressed with their knowledge in the space flight business, that they wanted to be partners in the Space Station. I think there were a few pride issues that we saw, not from Yuri. I think Valeriy Ryumin was one. I think he had some concerns. I felt like he felt it should have been the Russian Space Station, of which we were a partner, or they should have had the lead, if you will. But the meetings were very professional, very cordial, very informative. Like I said, their protocols were signed.\n\n I was a little surprised at the conditions in Russia. This is in '94, and I haven't been back, so I had expected a little more U.S.-like. Maybe it was the time of the year, because March was sort of dingy.

[Assistant] A short trip.

[User] Short trip. I was glad to return to the good old USA.

[Assistant] You started your career with NASA at a time when the administration had just changed. Do you feel like the effects of working with one President, moving in to a new President, affected the Shuttle-Mir Program in any way, or do you feel support was there from the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Short trip. I was glad to return to the good old USA.

[Assistant] You started your career with NASA at a time when the administration had just changed. Do you feel like the effects of working with one President, moving in to a new President, affected the Shuttle-Mir Program in any way, or do you feel support was there from the—

[User] No. Let's see. I think the administration would have killed and canceled the Space Station if given the opportunity, and I think that was the reason of the redesign team. You'd have to ask some of the people who were actually in those meetings, but I think the real purpose of the whole redesign was to try to give the administration "an affordable Space Station." In the administration's defense, I think that Freedom, as it was even planned then, was not buildable, but that's certainly one person's opinion.\n\n I don't think the administration was enthusiastically supporting the Station. I don't think they enthusiastically supported the Phase One. I think they viewed it more as a foreign policy initiative than a scientific and technical exploration initiative. They supported us publicly, but I think the record will show—I think the record does show—a very lack of support in financial resources.

[Assistant] You spent four years with the program.

[User] Four years and six months, if I were counting.

[Assistant] And give us your thoughts on what you believe the benefits the Shuttle-Mir provided for the space program and for the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we tried to present them with the facts. I think within the administration, the administration did not want us to fly Dave Wolf. In fact, I don't think there's any question about that in our meetings at the White House. However, I don't think they were prepared to overrule "NASA," which would have been doubting the administration and ultimately the President overruling the head of an agency, which is a pretty slippery slope to be on. But there's no question about it, they were not the least bit interested in flying Dave Wolf, and wished that we would have canceled the activity.\n\n I sat there in the meeting and we left with—at least I believe the decision made that we, NASA—the NASA administrator said, "I have decided to fly Dave Wolf." Obviously the President could have overruled him and we would have certainly lived by that, but I don't think they had any intention of "overruling" us, but there was no doubt they would have been very delighted with the administrator at that time if we had not flown Dave. Now, since everything worked out, I think they now can embrace it, but I sat there in the meeting and they didn't want that to happen.

[Assistant] Speaking of the administrator, Dan Goldin was still relatively new in his job when you moved in.

[User] Yes, that's true. He was appointed, took the job on 1 April of '92, and so he'd been there right at two years, two and a half years, when I joined the agency.

[Assistant] So you were able to help him? How were you able to help him learn more about the Space Station / Mir Projects? Did you have specific duties assigned by him?

[User] I had about 150 duties assigned by Dan on a daily basis.

[Assistant] Added to the ones you had the day before? [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's true. He was appointed, took the job on 1 April of '92, and so he'd been there right at two years, two and a half years, when I joined the agency.

[Assistant] So you were able to help him? How were you able to help him learn more about the Space Station / Mir Projects? Did you have specific duties assigned by him?

[User] I had about 150 duties assigned by Dan on a daily basis.

[Assistant] Added to the ones you had the day before? [Laughter]

[User] Added to the ones I had before. He would have specific things that he might want to know more something about, but there are not any that I immediately recall, "Hey, I want you to go off and [unclear] this out on the Mir." Normally, "Get these folks together, get agreement, get a consensus. Let's make a decision and move on. Come to me. Make a recommendation," that kind of thing.\n\n I think Dan was committed to it from day one. He saw the utility and the value of it. He was under a lot of pressure, but I don't think Dan ever wavered. I think he believed in his heart it was the right thing to do. Clearly he had some anxious moments because it was going to come to rest probably on his shoulders as much as anybody, but I think Dan was very committed, and to this day, especially in hindsight, I think he feels very justified at everything that he did.

[Assistant] You spent four years, six months, and a few days in this job. Do you have any regrets of moving into it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think that was ever an issue, never consciously. There was a humorous meeting in Russia when I was across the table with Valeriy Ryumin and he was, shall we say, being a little loud and obnoxious. I turned to the interpreter who was sitting next to me, and in a stage whisper, in my finest English, Southern English, said, "Valeriy looked much better when he had a gun sight on his forehead." Of course, most of the Russians speak very good English, so I'm sure that they all heard me, which was my intent, and the meeting became a lot more cordial at that point than previously.\n\n No, again, I think the Russians always dealt with [us] professionally. If they had a hidden agenda, maybe I was too naive to see it. The engineers were superb. They built great hardware. They've got great experience. There are differences of opinion, but, heck, we can find differences of opinion anywhere. So, no, I don't think that was ever really an issue.

[Assistant] Although you left, have you been able to keep up with the Station, the impacts of Shuttle-Mir as it's affecting the ISS and moving into its next era?

[User] To some extent. I'm with the Boeing Company now, and I do a lot of work with the Station, so I follow it, but very similar to the capacity that I followed with NASA. I'm more on the periphery and the fringes than actually down there in the weeds of the day-to-day-type operations.

[Assistant]
Before we close, I was going to ask Paul or Summer if they had a question for you.

Who took your place at Headquarters?

[User] The honest answer is, they replaced me with five people. They had now assigned the job to five people and they told me the other day that there are now seven that are doing the duties that I was assigned. I don't know whether that is a compliment or a criticism. But the office is still there.

[Assistant] Where do you see us going now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To some extent. I'm with the Boeing Company now, and I do a lot of work with the Station, so I follow it, but very similar to the capacity that I followed with NASA. I'm more on the periphery and the fringes than actually down there in the weeds of the day-to-day-type operations.

[Assistant]
Before we close, I was going to ask Paul or Summer if they had a question for you.

Who took your place at Headquarters?

[User] The honest answer is, they replaced me with five people. They had now assigned the job to five people and they told me the other day that there are now seven that are doing the duties that I was assigned. I don't know whether that is a compliment or a criticism. But the office is still there.

[Assistant] Where do you see us going now?

[User] Hopefully back to the moon and on to Mars. We need to get back in the exploration game. We need to quit messing around in low Earth orbit, and we need to start today.

[Assistant] And with all your dealings on Capitol Hill, do you feel that the Shuttle-Mir Phase One Program and early days of ISS have shown Congress that there is a path that's further than what we've gone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The honest answer is, they replaced me with five people. They had now assigned the job to five people and they told me the other day that there are now seven that are doing the duties that I was assigned. I don't know whether that is a compliment or a criticism. But the office is still there.

[Assistant] Where do you see us going now?

[User] Hopefully back to the moon and on to Mars. We need to get back in the exploration game. We need to quit messing around in low Earth orbit, and we need to start today.

[Assistant] And with all your dealings on Capitol Hill, do you feel that the Shuttle-Mir Phase One Program and early days of ISS have shown Congress that there is a path that's further than what we've gone?

[User] I'm not sure about that. I think with Phase One we've shown that we can work with international partners. If you look at the Space Station that's on orbit right now, you have two pieces of flight hardware that were never within 10,000 miles of each other, flown in space, rendezvoused, docked, and the light switch was turned on and everything worked. That is an incredible engineering achievement. Not ever have we done that before in the space program. Every other thing in the space program had always been end-to-end tested on the ground. So that's a remarkable engineering feat.\n\n I think what we have shown is we have the ability to go back to the moon and on to Mars as soon as we get the commitment to go do that, and hopefully that commitment will come soon.

[Assistant] Anything you would like to add regarding your contributions to this program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hopefully back to the moon and on to Mars. We need to get back in the exploration game. We need to quit messing around in low Earth orbit, and we need to start today.

[Assistant] And with all your dealings on Capitol Hill, do you feel that the Shuttle-Mir Phase One Program and early days of ISS have shown Congress that there is a path that's further than what we've gone?

[User] I'm not sure about that. I think with Phase One we've shown that we can work with international partners. If you look at the Space Station that's on orbit right now, you have two pieces of flight hardware that were never within 10,000 miles of each other, flown in space, rendezvoused, docked, and the light switch was turned on and everything worked. That is an incredible engineering achievement. Not ever have we done that before in the space program. Every other thing in the space program had always been end-to-end tested on the ground. So that's a remarkable engineering feat.\n\n I think what we have shown is we have the ability to go back to the moon and on to Mars as soon as we get the commitment to go do that, and hopefully that commitment will come soon.

[Assistant] Anything you would like to add regarding your contributions to this program?

[User] No. I was just, like I said, proud to be a part of it. It was a fun time to be with NASA and a fun time to operate with a bunch of great people.

[Assistant] We thank you. We appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Glad to be here. Thank you.

[Assistant] I wanted to start out today by asking you about some awards and commendations that I saw on your biographical datasheet, which you so kindly provided us. You were the nominee for the Texas Society of Professional Engineers Junior Engineer of the Year Award. Can you tell us about that award and who nominated you?

[User] It was Joe [Joseph N.] Kotanchik, the Division Chief of the Structures and Mechanics Division. Joe nominated me, and I didn't win it, but I was the nominee from MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center] from NASA, Houston. And that was about it.

[Assistant] Were you nominated based on the work that you had done for the Vibration and Acoustic Test Facility [VATF], or what was the nomination based upon?

[User] I think it was based upon when I was trying to figure out how to make those simulations I was talking about last time. We were working with Ken [Kenneth McK.] Eldred and so forth at Wyle and trying to come up with a unique way to do this. Nobody had done it and I think it was probably for that.

[Assistant] I also saw that you received a group award for the Lunar Module Test Article-3. Can you tell us about that award and the test as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes I think we came pretty close to that. What you do is if you're way far off, you're going to get it close, because you'll make some modifications. You'll either carve some weight out somewhere, lighten it, drill some holes in low-stress locations and so forth, or you'll beef it up and strengthen it and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Did the test require you at all to go to Grumman up in New York?

[User] No. I did not go to Grumman on that. We had Grumman folks down. Came down from Bethpage [New York].

[Assistant] You had mentioned there were a few things you hadn't mentioned last time. Are there some things that you wanted to talk about?

[User] I wanted to be sure that I mentioned on the acoustic part. I had forgotten Omega D Squared. That's Wade D. Dorland. I called him Omega D Squared. When I was working with Ken Eldred at Wyle, we were fishing around for acoustic experts around the country. Ken said, “Hey, you got one right there at NASA. He's up at Marshall [Space Flight Center] at Huntsville working on the Saturn.”\n\n So I went up and paid Wade Dorland a visit. Boy he was good. He was a good person in structural dynamics with acoustics. Acoustician. So I tried to talk him into coming down to Houston. He didn't want to leave Huntsville. I think he was from Nebraska or Kansas, and he liked it up there. He didn't want to go to the subtropics down there in Houston. The British embassy was on subtropical duty pay when we arrived in Houston. I don't know if you knew that or not.

[Assistant] I can see why. All those mosquitoes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] What did he tell you?

[User] He'd tell me how to sit, how to patiently take the question and try to work with it as best you can. Be patient. If you keep repeating the same question, why, then just how to move on to something else. Little suave things to do. Doug was great.

[Assistant] Were you the only member there who was describing what was going on or were there other people?

[User] Usually I was it.

[Assistant] You had to bear the brunt of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He'd tell me how to sit, how to patiently take the question and try to work with it as best you can. Be patient. If you keep repeating the same question, why, then just how to move on to something else. Little suave things to do. Doug was great.

[Assistant] Were you the only member there who was describing what was going on or were there other people?

[User] Usually I was it.

[Assistant] You had to bear the brunt of it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How frequent[ly] did you have these press conferences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually I was it.

[Assistant] You had to bear the brunt of it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How frequent[ly] did you have these press conferences?

[User] Well, I can't recall. Maybe weekly. Of course during the course of the test we probably had -- when we actually put the crew in the chamber for example in 2TV-1, put them in the vehicle, I can't recall, but we probably had a press conference every day there for that seven, eight days. We probably had them weekly maybe leading up to it and monthly even before that. After it was over and everything was okay, why, then we didn't have them anymore.

[Assistant] Did the media ever come out and shoot footage while the test was going on itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How frequent[ly] did you have these press conferences?

[User] Well, I can't recall. Maybe weekly. Of course during the course of the test we probably had -- when we actually put the crew in the chamber for example in 2TV-1, put them in the vehicle, I can't recall, but we probably had a press conference every day there for that seven, eight days. We probably had them weekly maybe leading up to it and monthly even before that. After it was over and everything was okay, why, then we didn't have them anymore.

[Assistant] Did the media ever come out and shoot footage while the test was going on itself?

[User] Yes, I think they did. Yes, they were around, and shooting motion as well as still photos. Trying to do a little bit of interviewing. But that was difficult because everybody was working hard. I think they were allowed in there as I recall. I'm a little fuzzy on that, though. Don't remember.

[Assistant] Did you carry over these press conferences when you started working on LM-2?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, again how to orchestrate a sizable group of manpower and resources. A typical project engineering function, management function with all the different systems, subsystems, components, all the different people, subsystem managers. And the tests, all the different test crews, all the different instrumentation crews, so on and so forth.

[Assistant] You had mentioned last time when you were working on the 2TV-1 test that it took a while to get to the testing stage. Was it the same case for the LM-2 test?

[User] Oh yes, yes. Yes, same idea. You create test plans of exactly what you're going to do, and you follow those very precisely. Complete with, in both cases, test readiness reviews, just like you'd have a flight readiness review, where you have a review board that reviews everything. It's set up with the management and the Program Office. And that everything's good to go and we're ready. All carefully controlled, everything is precisely written down and controlled. Nothing just off the cuff. It's all done in a very measured meticulous fashion, very rigorous.

[Assistant] Was the lunar landing then dependent upon the success of this?

[User] Absolutely. LM-2, like 2TV-1 was a direct constraint on Apollo 8, LM-2 was a direct constraint on Apollo 11. If we did not complete the LM-2 all-ups, systems drop test successfully, we could not go to the Moon with Apollo 11. Or could not do a landing. Now we went to the Moon in Apollo 10, where we did a circumlunar and we went around, but did not land. We couldn't land, which is what we did on 11, without successfully finishing LM-2. So yes it was a direct constraint on Apollo 11.

[Assistant] And did I see correctly from your notes that you watched the Apollo 11 launch? Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Yes, same idea. You create test plans of exactly what you're going to do, and you follow those very precisely. Complete with, in both cases, test readiness reviews, just like you'd have a flight readiness review, where you have a review board that reviews everything. It's set up with the management and the Program Office. And that everything's good to go and we're ready. All carefully controlled, everything is precisely written down and controlled. Nothing just off the cuff. It's all done in a very measured meticulous fashion, very rigorous.

[Assistant] Was the lunar landing then dependent upon the success of this?

[User] Absolutely. LM-2, like 2TV-1 was a direct constraint on Apollo 8, LM-2 was a direct constraint on Apollo 11. If we did not complete the LM-2 all-ups, systems drop test successfully, we could not go to the Moon with Apollo 11. Or could not do a landing. Now we went to the Moon in Apollo 10, where we did a circumlunar and we went around, but did not land. We couldn't land, which is what we did on 11, without successfully finishing LM-2. So yes it was a direct constraint on Apollo 11.

[Assistant] And did I see correctly from your notes that you watched the Apollo 11 launch? Is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to take a break for a second?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And it was wonderful. We made our way back of course so we could see the landing on the lunar surface, but oh yes, this really felt like all the hard work and the effort and all the round the clock sort of thing was well worth it.

[Assistant] And where were you when they finally did land on the Moon?

[User] I was at home in the middle of the night watching it on TV. I wasn't even in the control center, no. Black-and-white TV. Yes that's where I was.

[Assistant] Had you seen other Saturn launches? You mentioned that that was the first --

[User] No, I don't believe I had. I had seen a lot of Titan launches and Atlas launches and Delta launches and so forth on different occasions. But no, that was the first Saturn launch. I didn't see an earlier Saturn with the S-I, II, whatever it was. No. But I saw the big one. Saturn V.

[Assistant] That's pretty impressive. What a great story to have taken all your friends.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at home in the middle of the night watching it on TV. I wasn't even in the control center, no. Black-and-white TV. Yes that's where I was.

[Assistant] Had you seen other Saturn launches? You mentioned that that was the first --

[User] No, I don't believe I had. I had seen a lot of Titan launches and Atlas launches and Delta launches and so forth on different occasions. But no, that was the first Saturn launch. I didn't see an earlier Saturn with the S-I, II, whatever it was. No. But I saw the big one. Saturn V.

[Assistant] That's pretty impressive. What a great story to have taken all your friends.

[User] Right. And by the way we went back -- and later on the guy that we left there to talk to the FAA and get the plane fixed and fly it back, why, he finally got back, we managed to grab commercials and get back in time to see the landing. Of course in those days, we [were] a lot younger and we had a lot of vim and vigor and vitality. So, moved pretty quick.

[Assistant] What are your recollections of Apollo 13?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't believe I had. I had seen a lot of Titan launches and Atlas launches and Delta launches and so forth on different occasions. But no, that was the first Saturn launch. I didn't see an earlier Saturn with the S-I, II, whatever it was. No. But I saw the big one. Saturn V.

[Assistant] That's pretty impressive. What a great story to have taken all your friends.

[User] Right. And by the way we went back -- and later on the guy that we left there to talk to the FAA and get the plane fixed and fly it back, why, he finally got back, we managed to grab commercials and get back in time to see the landing. Of course in those days, we [were] a lot younger and we had a lot of vim and vigor and vitality. So, moved pretty quick.

[Assistant] What are your recollections of Apollo 13?

[User] By that time I was not on Apollo anymore. I was off on Space Station, Space Base studies. So I was not directly involved. But it was a harrowing experience, but I was not directly involved. So I was more on the periphery.

[Assistant] Well let's talk about your Space Station, Space Base studies that you were working on. How did you get involved in those studies initially?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By that time I was not on Apollo anymore. I was off on Space Station, Space Base studies. So I was not directly involved. But it was a harrowing experience, but I was not directly involved. So I was more on the periphery.

[Assistant] Well let's talk about your Space Station, Space Base studies that you were working on. How did you get involved in those studies initially?

[User] Can I mention a few things about some of the LM-2 people? Or is this appropriate?

[Assistant] Absolutely yes.

[User] Some of the folks where I forgot them before.

[Assistant] Absolutely please do so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it's best to ask Bill, I think, in that particular case. Bill actually had been selected as a flight director, but he was doing a stint in Moscow as an Ops Lead at the time. He returned and set up shop in an office here in the flight director office, only for a very brief period of time, and was immediately swept away to another assignment over in the Shuttle Program office. So the details of that you'll have to talk to Bill.

[Assistant] When you mentioned whether they'd come from a flight director's ranks, I couldn't figure out how that transpired.

[User] Well, they didn't come from the flight director's ranks. The Ops Leads were selected across MOD and essentially selected by the flight directors, or nominated, maybe, would be a better term, by the flight directors.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the RIOs, I guess, were assisting the flight director. We know that Sally Davis was one of the RIOs and since been selected as flight director. I think she's worked one of the missions so far now. So the experience the RIOs gained sounds like it was pretty valuable for what you're doing in the flight director's job.

[User] Yes, I think it was. The people that we picked for RIO generally consisted of people who had a fair amount of operations experience and understood how the Control Center works and how to get things done in the context of real-time operations. Naturally, we tried to pick people who we thought were talented and had a lot of capability. The fact that Sally fell in that category, I think, is the thing that made her a candidate for flight director. Not necessarily that the RIO job is a training ground or specifically suited to flight director office, but they should attract the same kinds of people.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about your experiences over in Russia and tell us how many trips you took over there and the contacts that you made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was usually in the morning. I think it was either seven to eight or eight to nine in the morning Moscow time. So the incoming team would ride the train in, when the transportation was still available for the off-going team to get home.

[Assistant] Since you brought the subject up, I remember some of the scary trips between the hotel and the Control Center. The traffic seemed to get worse every time you went over there, and more lanes where there weren't lanes.

[User] Yes, noticeably. When we first started going to Moscow, I think gasoline was not terribly available. From talking to some of the flight controllers, simple car parts were not available. So there wasn't a lot of private automobile traffic early on when we started. But it seemed like every time I went over there, it got worse and worse, more heavily traveled. Yes, depending on which direction you were going in the morning or the end of the day, traffic could be quite a zoo. As you say, lanes where there weren't lanes.\n\n I don't want to be critical of the Russians. I think what they do is probably fairly typical of a lot of other European countries. I think it's different from the degree of order that we're used to here in American highways. I won't say whether it's good or bad, but it was sure different.

[Assistant] Anybody that complains about the traffic on NASA Road One ought to go to visit some of the roads over in Moscow.

[User] That's probably a good point. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Can you share with us some of your most memorable experiences during the Shuttle-Mir Program, whether they were in Russia or here in Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never have done that. My wife and I have talked about it. I'd like to be able to take my wife over. Of course, she also works in the program now and is involved in the ISS Program, so we're looking for opportunities when we might both have business over there. If that doesn't work out, we'll probably just wind up when one of us goes over for business, with the other one buying a ticket, and going on over and doing a little touring around. But so far, no.

[Assistant] I'm sure you painted a colorful picture for her from all the trips you've made.

[User] Had some good stories for her. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
I'm going to see if Rebecca or Paul have a couple of questions for you.

You worked on [STS-] 63?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You worked on [STS-] 91?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Had some good stories for her. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
I'm going to see if Rebecca or Paul have a couple of questions for you.

You worked on [STS-] 63?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You worked on [STS-] 91?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It was just really a short amount of time between those two, but yet lots of experiences in between. Can you give us an idea of how you felt, from the exhilaration of being on the first one, to working on the last one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think if you ask that question of anybody, the first thing they'll tell you is, "Well, I would have liked to have flown." [Laughter] But having been consigned to the ground, I think the flight director job was probably the job that I would have chosen if I would have had complete freedom to pick. I've had a fairly high amount of authority and freedom to go do my job in a lot of aspects. I felt like I was able to make a significant contribution. I really think I had an input into things that happened and steered things in the right directions when I had a chance to participate. So, in retrospect, I can't see anyplace where I'd say, "Gee, I wish I had been over there," or, "I wish I had been in a different place or been doing something different at the time." In this period of the program, I think this was the best place to be.

[Assistant] When you were a little boy, did you want to be a flight director when you grew up?

[User] Either flight director or an astronaut.

[Assistant] Seriously?

[User] Seriously. I'll never forget, when I was a kid, sitting in elementary school with my head down on my desk, listening to Alan Shepard's first flight, and I was bitten with the space bug.

[Assistant] I remember that, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Either flight director or an astronaut.

[Assistant] Seriously?

[User] Seriously. I'll never forget, when I was a kid, sitting in elementary school with my head down on my desk, listening to Alan Shepard's first flight, and I was bitten with the space bug.

[Assistant] I remember that, too.

[User] Through my whole childhood, I didn't miss a launch or a splashdown or a moon walk. I'm sure if you ask a lot of other people my age, I fell asleep on the living room floor in front of the TV, watching people walk on the moon in the middle of the night, California time.\n\n I really did want to be in the program here and steered my education in that direction. Like everybody, I wanted to be an astronaut at one time, you know, but just the statistical probabilities of getting selected into that small pool of folks are tough. But as a kid, I used to remember reading the newspaper, "Flight Director, Gene Kranz," and I kind of thought that that was a fascinating job and would really like to be in that position.\n\n I had a really interesting experience. About five years ago, I sat on a panel discussion in front of some high school students. I was on a podium with Gene Kranz and Henry Pohl and a gentleman from Lockheed. I looked down the row, and was sort of taken aback for just a minute, that I was considered worthy of sitting at a podium with people of that caliber, and that of all of my childhood ambitions, to sit in a chair that those kinds of people sat in, to sit in the flight director console where Gene Kranz had sat, and to be in the company of brilliant engineers like Mr. Pohl, that was probably the first time in my life that I ever really felt that I had accomplished my objectives. Because being the hard-driving type, we're always feeling like we should have done more or accomplished more or wish we'd gone further. But that was a real moment of satisfaction for me.

[Assistant] What does one do to become a flight director? I mean, you sit at console for a while, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll have to go back and look. I have my notes somewhere.

[Assistant] How long were you there?

[User] I completely forget that. We met off and on. Boy, I want to say it took us about six months to finish all the deliberations. And it wasn’t an ongoing—you know, we didn’t meet every day for three weeks or something like that. We met and went back and thought about it and polled people, went back to the centers to try to find out what the level of reception would be. Interestingly, there were some people who were opposed to it, for a variety of reasons. You could not get people to understand that these were going to be two co-equal awards; it was just that the criteria for receiving one as opposed to the other was technical versus nontechnical. There was nothing for the nontechnical people up until that time. Although anybody could receive an Exceptional Service Award, it was always considered to be something for technical achievement.

[Assistant] At what point did you learn that you were assigned to your next flight?

[User] Oh, my goodness. I really don’t remember, because my next one, it was my first command, and that was being the commander of STS-45 ATLAS [Atmospheric Laboratory for Applications and Science]. And I actually think, if I remember correctly, much the same as I had learned that I was going to be on STS-31, the Hubble Space Telescope mission, it was in the latter phases of preparation for that flight that I was advised that two years hence I was going to get an opportunity to command my first mission.

[Assistant] As you mention, this is your first as a commander. What were the differences for training and getting ready for this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In fact, Sergei, he talked back and forth quite a bit with his friend there. And I can’t remember whether it was a former crewmember of his, I don’t think so, but it was a very good friend, and they talked back and forth about things.

[Assistant] One of those conversations was on television. Good Morning, America telecast it live.

[User] Yes, I’ve got to remember if it worked. Ideally what we were going to do was that we were going to do split screen, or tri-screen. And I think it was [Charles] Charlie Gibson, but I can’t remember. I think it may have been Charlie Gibson was going to do the interview, and we were going to have us on [Space Shuttle] Discovery, and the Russian cosmonauts on Mir, and Charlie Gibson on this tri-screen thing. And we did have the conversation go on. I’m not sure that we were able to get Mir simultaneously with us, other than voice. But it went pretty well, and they talked back and forth and among each other and compared notes and all that, as best I can remember. You have the advantage of the transcript.

[Assistant] You also received a phone call from the [Russian] Prime Minister.

[User] Oh, that’s right. That is right.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of that phone call?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that’s right. That is right.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of that phone call?

[User] I do, because we knew it was coming and so we set it up such that Sergei would be able to talk to him because he was the only one that spoke Russian. As I remember, it went very well, and that was the time that the invitation was extended that we come to Russia, the invitation on the part of the Russian government from Prime Minister [Boris] Yeltsin. I think it was Yeltsin.

[Assistant] [Viktor] Chernomyrdin?

[User] No, Chernomyrdin was the Deputy Prime Minister. And Chernomyrdin I knew because he had come to Houston during our training and I had had the opportunity to demonstrate the Remote Manipulator System to him over in Building 9. We had him in a simulator. Pretty sharp guy, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] So they extended an invitation to go to Russia for post-flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do, because we knew it was coming and so we set it up such that Sergei would be able to talk to him because he was the only one that spoke Russian. As I remember, it went very well, and that was the time that the invitation was extended that we come to Russia, the invitation on the part of the Russian government from Prime Minister [Boris] Yeltsin. I think it was Yeltsin.

[Assistant] [Viktor] Chernomyrdin?

[User] No, Chernomyrdin was the Deputy Prime Minister. And Chernomyrdin I knew because he had come to Houston during our training and I had had the opportunity to demonstrate the Remote Manipulator System to him over in Building 9. We had him in a simulator. Pretty sharp guy, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] So they extended an invitation to go to Russia for post-flight?

[User] Which we took. We accepted, and we went to Russia post-flight. That was another one of the highlights of that particular flight and my time down here, because it gave us an opportunity—it was the first time I’d ever been to Russia. And for Ken Reightler and me, I think more so than anybody else on the crew, because, as I remember, we had Ken and me, [Ron Sega], Sergei, Franklin.

[Assistant] And Jan Davis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Chernomyrdin was the Deputy Prime Minister. And Chernomyrdin I knew because he had come to Houston during our training and I had had the opportunity to demonstrate the Remote Manipulator System to him over in Building 9. We had him in a simulator. Pretty sharp guy, as a matter of fact.

[Assistant] So they extended an invitation to go to Russia for post-flight?

[User] Which we took. We accepted, and we went to Russia post-flight. That was another one of the highlights of that particular flight and my time down here, because it gave us an opportunity—it was the first time I’d ever been to Russia. And for Ken Reightler and me, I think more so than anybody else on the crew, because, as I remember, we had Ken and me, [Ron Sega], Sergei, Franklin.

[Assistant] And Jan Davis?

[User] And Jan Davis. So Ken and I were the only [active duty] military guys, and when we went to Moscow, one of the first things we did was tour the Kremlin. And there we were standing on the wall of the Kremlin, looking down on Red Square, and we both looked at each other and kind of went, “Pinch me. This can’t be real.” Never in our lives did we, as military guys, did we ever envision that we would be standing on the Kremlin wall looking down on Red Square peacefully, as a partner, so to speak. For the two of us it was pretty spectacular. The whole episode of coming together as a crew, bringing the Russians here, training, flying together, and then going to Russia and having exposure and an opportunity to go into the things that formerly had been verboten was pretty impressive to us, to the two of us.

[Assistant] Quite an experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, I’ve got to remember this. See, I always remember the good stuff. Refresh my memory.

[Assistant] The TPS blankets around the forward RCS [Reaction Control System] thruster began to peel back.

[User] Oh, I think I do remember that vaguely. Yes. Okay. What was your question?

[Assistant] Just if there was any concern with that as far as reentry was involved.

[User] No, no. Just as I think—and I can’t speak for anybody else, and no one will ever know—but my suspicion is the crew of 107 didn’t have any concern about their safety because they depended on the team and figured that people had looked and done the best job they could. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but I didn’t have any concern, not during our reentry.

[Assistant] We talked about the launches and we talked about the flights. Let’s talk for a moment about landing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think I do remember that vaguely. Yes. Okay. What was your question?

[Assistant] Just if there was any concern with that as far as reentry was involved.

[User] No, no. Just as I think—and I can’t speak for anybody else, and no one will ever know—but my suspicion is the crew of 107 didn’t have any concern about their safety because they depended on the team and figured that people had looked and done the best job they could. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but I didn’t have any concern, not during our reentry.

[Assistant] We talked about the launches and we talked about the flights. Let’s talk for a moment about landing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] As a commander on the last two flights, what was that experience like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, coming back that way? Yes. Much gentler. Did you all interview him?

[Assistant] No, we haven’t.

[User] Will you?

[Assistant] I hope so.

[User] It would be interesting to see what he says. But I know, just asking him about differences, very gentle compared to Soyuz, and again, he said there’s no question when you land in Soyuz because you’re fearing for life. He said the hard part is after you land, because if the winds are high on the desert, you get dragged around by the parachute until it gets released, and they have guys get injured post-landing, just getting thrown around inside the capsule. Ours is real nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned before we took a break, you left NASA and returned to the Marine Corps. In 2002, you were nominated for a position as Deputy Administer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Will you?

[Assistant] I hope so.

[User] It would be interesting to see what he says. But I know, just asking him about differences, very gentle compared to Soyuz, and again, he said there’s no question when you land in Soyuz because you’re fearing for life. He said the hard part is after you land, because if the winds are high on the desert, you get dragged around by the parachute until it gets released, and they have guys get injured post-landing, just getting thrown around inside the capsule. Ours is real nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned before we took a break, you left NASA and returned to the Marine Corps. In 2002, you were nominated for a position as Deputy Administer.

[User] Oh, we’re going to talk about that?

[Assistant] Only if you want to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would be interesting to see what he says. But I know, just asking him about differences, very gentle compared to Soyuz, and again, he said there’s no question when you land in Soyuz because you’re fearing for life. He said the hard part is after you land, because if the winds are high on the desert, you get dragged around by the parachute until it gets released, and they have guys get injured post-landing, just getting thrown around inside the capsule. Ours is real nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned before we took a break, you left NASA and returned to the Marine Corps. In 2002, you were nominated for a position as Deputy Administer.

[User] Oh, we’re going to talk about that?

[Assistant] Only if you want to.

[User] Yes, it’s okay. I don’t have any secrets. Somebody knows it.

[Assistant] Okay. If you could tell us about the circumstances around that nomination.