[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. That leaves you with a lot of impressions and.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the things too about Honduras. Sorry. Just one of the things I thought about was just like when we were there, it's like every day, especially at the beginning, every day there's some new experience there. You're learning something new and like that's so rare here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think it's such a special, fun, amazing thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there something you want to say to wrap up, kind of a last thought on what you feel like your, you know, what did you, what was your overarching impression of what your service was? Is there a word or a feeling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the things too about Honduras. Sorry. Just one of the things I thought about was just like when we were there, it's like every day, especially at the beginning, every day there's some new experience there. You're learning something new and like that's so rare here.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think it's such a special, fun, amazing thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Is there something you want to say to wrap up, kind of a last thought on what you feel like your, you know, what did you, what was your overarching impression of what your service was? Is there a word or a feeling?

[User] Life changing?

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. You've given us a lot of examples of how it affected you. Yeah, well, thank you so much for the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I guess we did. Or we made copies or whatever. I don't remember the details. I just remember, you know, we didn't just pull it and bring it to him. He wanted to come and see it. So he came and we met him in our vault. We were there. He came in. We called it this VIP file because they were records that we just wanted to make sure something untoward didn't happen to. And it could have just been something innocent that it got misfiled when it was being put back. So that was kind of I thought that was kind of a very interesting thing. So. And you have a new Archivist now. That's the first permanent female Archivist.

[Assistant] Yes. And I believe she is going to NPRC soon, next week.

[User] Oh, boy. Okay.

[Assistant] I think there's a congressional open house happening. So I think she's visiting for that. So if you're around, she'll be there.

[User] Yeah, I probably will not. I mean, I may. It may be on the news. I don't know. I will say I said first permanent Archivist because I know Debra Wall was Acting Archivist, and I had a few occasions when I was employed to deal with her. And I always found her really easy to deal with; a sharp person. So I couldn't think of a better person to handle some of that stuff in the interim. And I know filling these positions that have to be approved by the Senate and everything, they're just not easy.

[Assistant] It's an understatement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, boy. Okay.

[Assistant] I think there's a congressional open house happening. So I think she's visiting for that. So if you're around, she'll be there.

[User] Yeah, I probably will not. I mean, I may. It may be on the news. I don't know. I will say I said first permanent Archivist because I know Debra Wall was Acting Archivist, and I had a few occasions when I was employed to deal with her. And I always found her really easy to deal with; a sharp person. So I couldn't think of a better person to handle some of that stuff in the interim. And I know filling these positions that have to be approved by the Senate and everything, they're just not easy.

[Assistant] It's an understatement.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that is definitely an understatement. I haven't really kept up with all the particulars, but I just know it's never easy and it seems like those things have gotten harder.

[Assistant] So is there anything else you'd like to add to the interview? Do you have any additional anecdotes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that is definitely an understatement. I haven't really kept up with all the particulars, but I just know it's never easy and it seems like those things have gotten harder.

[Assistant] So is there anything else you'd like to add to the interview? Do you have any additional anecdotes?

[User] Well, I actually have one that is kind of weird. I told you I was born and raised in St. Louis, and my dad was very active in the Marine Corps Reserve. So I had been a Cub Scout, but I really didn't want to be a Boy Scout. I don't know why. I think most of my friends weren't doing it. Well, he came to me and said, well, they have this Marine Corps League program, like a local Marine Corps veterans group. He said they have this group called the Young Marines. You could do that. So in 1967, I did that. And we had goofy-looking, little uniforms with a beret, but where we met every Saturday for spring and summer of 1967 when I was 13 was the National Personnel Records Center on 9700 Page.

[Assistant] No way.

[User] Kind of weird. And of the people that I still regularly see and we have a monthly group of retirees that get together, I think I was actually at the building before any of them, even Mrs. Bruno that I know you're going to talk to, because 1967, it was still a full six floors. And we actually met on Saturdays. And apparently Saturday work must have been common because that building was open, and we just met there and marched around and learned different things. But it's just a weird, sideline to the fact that I was there before the fire, but at the time I'm not even sure that I paid any attention to how many floors it was.

[Assistant] Well, then, when you were in the area during the fire, do you remember it happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was a very good photographer in general, because in geology we do this a lot. I liked it, and I was good at it, and I had my own camera and photo lab, enlargers, myself. I made my own prints with the slides from microscopes, so I was very interested in photography. I read about it a lot, I had all kinds of books, and I did a great deal. I did all of the pictures for my research myself as a geologist.

[Assistant] This became a very needed skill for you to be able to help them adjust.

[User] Very needed skill then yes, because of the film speed, film sensitivity and all of that. Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with the photo labs?

[User] Yes. After the missions we did. We realized that all of the color film that we were using was not real color [film]. There is something better, there is something that is not working very well here. We communicated actually with the US Navy about color film. We were able to get them to cooperate with us, because they were working with things that were classified, but they cooperated with us only by the time of 1975 and the Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project] mission, then they gave us the color. They had paid [Eastman] Kodak [Company] to make a color-sensitive film, which we could have used, but they wouldn’t allow us. After some time I suppose when they developed a better film, they allowed us to use then the special color film that was from a batch that Kodak had developed for the Navy for a classified program, but they developed something better and they allowed us to use that.

[Assistant] I believe you shared with me that the astronauts, the colors of the photos did not match the colors they remembered. How did you adjust for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. How to say it, yes, so we said, “Here I am. I’m a geologist. I’m going to look at this. What is it? How am I going to explain this to a guy in the next room that’s not looking at it? What I would say about that.” Yes, he would know the meaning of the words. When I say, striated, that I mean something. Does this really mean fractures in it? When I say, layered, there is some huge communication that goes in the mind of the guy that’s not there if you say layered. So is it striations or layers or lines or cracks? There is a difference between. There is a pattern in there, what you say about this pattern will mean a lot of things to a lot of different people.

[Assistant] It’s quite a challenge.

[User] It was a challenge.

[Assistant] They were zipping through there pretty fast.

[User] That did not come easy with just looking at the Moon. That came only through the flyover exercises.

[Assistant] You charted out places for them to go in the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, because when they report back what they’re seeing, they would report—maybe it’s not the proper language and maybe not the proper terminology—but he saw it and he verbalized about it, and it’s up to us to figure out what it is. Which means that he was prepared and he did it right.

[Assistant] You were named a principal investigator [PI] for the orbital visual observations and photography experiment for Apollo 15 and 17. Did that change your role, or did that just give you more of a title?

[User] No, actually, I was doing that informally without NASA making me—because anybody that required time on the Apollo missions was a PI, a principal investigator, or else why NASA would allow time to do such and such? It was principal investigators that applied with a proposal and the proposal accepted and NASA gave the money to make whatever he needed, then it becomes part of the mission and therefore the flight planners would allow the time for the mission. Here I was, a little guy, taking time from the mission and putting things in the flight plan, and I had no official position. It was when [M.] Gene Simmons was the chief scientist at JSC and they were looking through all of the principal investigators. He said, “Goddamn it. What is Farouk? What’s he been doing? You can’t have him doing this on his own like that. He’s got to be a principal investigator or something.”\n\n So they said, “Well, we can make him principal investigator of visual observations and photography.” They made it official because I was functioning without a mandate. The flight planners were responding to me without mandates. I was supposed to be just a geologist at Bellcomm at NASA Headquarters doing what NASA Headquarters needs. I had no role at JSC.

[Assistant] When you started, you were not even allowed to talk to the astronauts or the press, is that correct?

[User] Absolutely. We were prohibited, from Bellcomm. We were told not to talk to astronauts and never to talk to the press of any sort.

[Assistant] That changed in more than one route. Tell us about your dealings with the press.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The mission schedule meaning what?

[Assistant] Canceling 18.

[User] The deal between NASA and AT&T was, “I’m going to give you all those people that you need for as long as the Apollo program is on. The day Apollo ends, goodbye, because these are my own people, I want them back in New Jersey.” This was the deal, so we knew by Apollo 17 time when came the splashdown of Apollo 17, Bellcomm will fold. Everybody’s moving, so people began to look for houses back in Holmdel, New Jersey.

[Assistant] What did you choose to do?

[User] At the time absolutely nothing, I wasn’t even prepared to think about it. That same year Michael Collins of Apollo 11 was brought in by the Smithsonian Institution to head the [National] Air and Space Museum. There was a function where Stu Roosa and Michael Collins were together, and Michael Collins was telling Stu Roosa that he’s just accepted to be director of the Air and Space Museum. “They even want me to do scientific research there, and I don’t know what the hell do they mean by that.”\n\n So Stu Roosa said, “Well, call Farouk.”\n\n Michael Collins calls me up, and he said, “I’m going to be the director of the Air and Space Museum, and they said that they want me to start [research]. I think that you should come and do this thing for me. I know I’m not going to understand half of what you say, but I know that you’re going to do a good job. Why don’t you come and do whatever the hell you want to do?”\n\n I left Bellcomm in December 1972. I moved across the street to the Smithsonian on January 1, to start something that we called the Center for Earth and Planetary Studies as part of the National Air and Space Museum as part of the Smithsonian. I was there for ten years. This was a fascinating thing. It was one of the most fascinating jobs in my life.

[Assistant] Please tell us about your first days and how they evolved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You should go see it.

[Assistant] I’ll go see that one.

[User] It starts with a balloon and ends up with the rocket to the Moon. Fabulous history of aviation with fantastic resolution and magnificent scenery. The Museum cannot take it off. People in Washington request it.\n\n So we did it; we started it. We thought we’re going to charge $1 so that we can get that money back. We made $2 million in the first year. Since we are a government agency, we cannot make profit, so what we decided—we’ll call Graeme Ferguson of Canada and tell him, “You make the second movie for $1,250,000.” We did. There, IMAX movies were born. Or else no one would have ever seen it.

[Assistant] Amazing. What a great story. Thanks for sharing that.

[User] Now IMAX would have died had it not been for this, “To Fly!” and the vision of both Michael Collins, as the director of the Air and Space Museum, and the Smithsonian boss Dillon Ripley for saying, “That’s not too bad, and if you get the money in four, five years—” I told him four years. He said, “Four or five years is okay.”

[Assistant] Now the second movie. Did you provide the script or did you give them—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It starts with a balloon and ends up with the rocket to the Moon. Fabulous history of aviation with fantastic resolution and magnificent scenery. The Museum cannot take it off. People in Washington request it.\n\n So we did it; we started it. We thought we’re going to charge $1 so that we can get that money back. We made $2 million in the first year. Since we are a government agency, we cannot make profit, so what we decided—we’ll call Graeme Ferguson of Canada and tell him, “You make the second movie for $1,250,000.” We did. There, IMAX movies were born. Or else no one would have ever seen it.

[Assistant] Amazing. What a great story. Thanks for sharing that.

[User] Now IMAX would have died had it not been for this, “To Fly!” and the vision of both Michael Collins, as the director of the Air and Space Museum, and the Smithsonian boss Dillon Ripley for saying, “That’s not too bad, and if you get the money in four, five years—” I told him four years. He said, “Four or five years is okay.”

[Assistant] Now the second movie. Did you provide the script or did you give them—

[User] No, they actually came prepared with something about Planet Earth. Flying to different places, going to Egypt and photographing the pyramids, going to India, photographing it. They did it for the $1,250,000. That bombed. Nobody wanted to see it, so we put it on a little bit and then put it with “To Fly!” and then cut it off.

[Assistant] Actually going forward in your career, you worked with more of this Large Format Camera, is that correct? When you went to Itek?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My interjecting scientific questions, and the importance of science, into the program, by planting it in the minds of people that know how to do it. I really felt that that was my contribution that I did—I was able to just allow science to get in under the skin of Apollo. Gently and nicely, and by total acceptance in the places where they really can do something about it.

[Assistant] When you originally started, you began your career by going through series of thousands of photos. Did you put yourself back in that position before you left? Did you review all those photos that came back from your CMP students and was able to absorb all the knowledge or all the lessons that came out of those photos as well?

[User] Absolutely. We always continued to pore over these photographs, then also I helped put together the team that NASA wanted to pay for to archive all the Apollo photography. That’s an important thing, because also we made real honest to God archives. There was one archive that I made personally with all the Apollo-Soyuz photographs, a real honest to God archive that has the numbers, has descriptions, has every single picture that was taken, because this was the beginning of looking at the Earth from space.\n\n We had a whole slew of people, 12 people, doing nothing but archiving all of the Apollo acquired images, because this is part of the history of science, and part of our understanding of the Moon, and part of the whole astronomy field. Definitely. That’s very essential to keep at it and make absolutely certain that you say what you know and organize it in such a way that can be used by the newer generation or the next generation, whoever goes back to the Moon.

[Assistant] You are teaching many of the new generation [here at Boston University].

[User] That’s right. Many of my students are running programs now. Many of the people that work—the guys that are running the Smithsonian now are the students of my students. The Center for Earth—the guy that is going to be the editor of the book I wrote a chapter for is a student of a guy that I served on his PhD committee for and I hired at the Smithsonian. Sure.

[Assistant] That must be very rewarding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. We always continued to pore over these photographs, then also I helped put together the team that NASA wanted to pay for to archive all the Apollo photography. That’s an important thing, because also we made real honest to God archives. There was one archive that I made personally with all the Apollo-Soyuz photographs, a real honest to God archive that has the numbers, has descriptions, has every single picture that was taken, because this was the beginning of looking at the Earth from space.\n\n We had a whole slew of people, 12 people, doing nothing but archiving all of the Apollo acquired images, because this is part of the history of science, and part of our understanding of the Moon, and part of the whole astronomy field. Definitely. That’s very essential to keep at it and make absolutely certain that you say what you know and organize it in such a way that can be used by the newer generation or the next generation, whoever goes back to the Moon.

[Assistant] You are teaching many of the new generation [here at Boston University].

[User] That’s right. Many of my students are running programs now. Many of the people that work—the guys that are running the Smithsonian now are the students of my students. The Center for Earth—the guy that is going to be the editor of the book I wrote a chapter for is a student of a guy that I served on his PhD committee for and I hired at the Smithsonian. Sure.

[Assistant] That must be very rewarding.

[User] Wonderful to see the students of your students doing something tangible. Sure.

[Assistant]
Well, we’ve learned so much this afternoon. Are there any topics that you feel we need to touch on before we close today? Jennifer, is there anything that came to your mind?

The only question I had for you is, as I sit here, I see Joe Allen’s Entering Space [on the bookshelf]. I see the photo of STS-5 [on your wall]. Joe Allen had told us that he was very interested in photography and cameras. On STS-5 they took the first full crew photograph. Can you tell us about your work on STS-5 with Joe Allen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. Many of my students are running programs now. Many of the people that work—the guys that are running the Smithsonian now are the students of my students. The Center for Earth—the guy that is going to be the editor of the book I wrote a chapter for is a student of a guy that I served on his PhD committee for and I hired at the Smithsonian. Sure.

[Assistant] That must be very rewarding.

[User] Wonderful to see the students of your students doing something tangible. Sure.

[Assistant]
Well, we’ve learned so much this afternoon. Are there any topics that you feel we need to touch on before we close today? Jennifer, is there anything that came to your mind?

The only question I had for you is, as I sit here, I see Joe Allen’s Entering Space [on the bookshelf]. I see the photo of STS-5 [on your wall]. Joe Allen had told us that he was very interested in photography and cameras. On STS-5 they took the first full crew photograph. Can you tell us about your work on STS-5 with Joe Allen?

[User] I never really worked on STS-5 personally, as a Shuttle program specifically for photography, but Joe Allen was the science astronaut on Apollo mission 15. He attended every single briefing that I had with the crew of Apollo 15. By the time we finished with the Apollo 15 mission, he was as knowledgeable, as versed in Apollo photography, like any one of them or anyone. He continued that throughout his Shuttle work. He took many pictures. He showed me many of these pictures from his missions, not just one. In Houston, he would call me and he’d say, “I’m going to go through—I want you to come and see, to look at these pictures.”\n\n Said, “Great, I will go down.” We’d look at rolls of films, so he became as astute in photography as any one of the other guys. He’s also a scientist, a PhD in physics. He was very good at it.

[Assistant] He is a Renaissance man, that’s for sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s right. What the hell is a guy who’s an expert on lead and zinc doing teaching astronauts about the Moon? He’s the one that would later say that, “The only man on Earth that I’ve ever met that knows the Moon like the palm of his hand is Farouk El-Baz.” Joe Allen himself, [said this] in one of the debriefings.

[Assistant] It must be very interesting for you to think back where you were in Egypt working with the petroleum companies studying under the ground, and then you go to the Moon.

[User] Then go to the Moon.

[Assistant] It’s quite an expansive career.

[User] The only reason for success is really zeroing in on what is significant here, yes. What’s the issue? What’s the problem? What is it you have to do, and why? Then okay, if that’s the case, then how do we do it best?

[Assistant] You shared such great lessons with us, so we appreciate you for giving us your afternoon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but it was wonderful. You never felt like he was stepping in and directing you this way or that way. He was paying close attention, but he wasn't on top of you every day. Yet he was letting you go away and solve your problem. It's a very excellent way also to bring people up and improve. Whatever they can do now with that kind of treatment, they can grow.

[Assistant] It seemed to incorporate a lot of the aspects that you talked about. He served as a mentor at the same time he was a teacher and a confidant and an encourager, but still taskmaster. He knew what you were doing.

[User] And he's watching you. But he's not meddling. It was very, very fine.

[Assistant] Great way to learn.

[User] Through all of that, if I come back to where we started, still the most important part of becoming a good program manager is on-the-job training. If you don't bring people up through an on-the-job process to some degree, it's going to be hard to get them to where you need them to start a program.

[Assistant] When I was listening to you going through these different areas, there was a lot of planning involved in how things were done. Share with me why that's so important, and if you saw anything through your career that proved that good planning really is worth the time that it takes for a good result.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he's watching you. But he's not meddling. It was very, very fine.

[Assistant] Great way to learn.

[User] Through all of that, if I come back to where we started, still the most important part of becoming a good program manager is on-the-job training. If you don't bring people up through an on-the-job process to some degree, it's going to be hard to get them to where you need them to start a program.

[Assistant] When I was listening to you going through these different areas, there was a lot of planning involved in how things were done. Share with me why that's so important, and if you saw anything through your career that proved that good planning really is worth the time that it takes for a good result.

[User] These programs are incredibly complicated, complex interactions of different systems elements and different companies, different people involved in the government side. There's no way you can have a successful evolution of development and of the business aspects of a program, the schedules and the finances, and then in Shuttle after you get to fly, these manifests and the sequencings of vehicles and the capabilities of the facilities you're going to use. It is so complicated that planning is a huge aspect of the program management job. You have to be watching what's going on and taking care of problems, but you also have to be focusing on all of the things that are going on simultaneously: how they converge and how they keep you moving towards the goals you want to achieve. Planning is just one of the biggest parts of program management.

[Assistant] Underlying everything that you've done these last almost 50 years there's been a level of risk that has been attached to all the decisions and planning, scheduling. If we could spend some time talking about risk and risk mitigation activities and assessments—talk to us about those aspects and how you plan. What’re the lessons and the knowledge that we need to make sure that we are adhering to the right level of risk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You asked about notes and things, and I'm not sure what you're looking for there exactly.

[Assistant] We do have a JSC History Collection, and that is used quite often, especially the last couple of years as Constellation has been up and going. One of the goals of the Chief Knowledge Officer is to try to make sure lots of papers, documents—whatever information that might have been important to someone along the way of programs—makes it into that archive. Sometimes people left their files at the Center, and they made it where they needed to go. A lot of that's, of course, at the National Archives. But she's wanting to see if there are people that might have personal papers. There are some that have taken their papers. Mr. Bond, Aleck [C.] Bond, has given his, and Carl [R.] Huss's papers are there.

[User] I don't know that my papers are that organized. I don't have a diary kind of thing on the programs I managed, which almost sounds like that might be what it would be.

[Assistant] It could be. The archivist that's there is Shelly Henley Kelly, and she's gotten boxes—I don't know if you remember a gentleman named Mr. [Louis] Leopold.

[User] Yes, Lou.

[Assistant] We've talked to him. Last time we were there, we put about seven or eight boxes in the back of the vehicle and brought them down to the archives for him. They're just papers that have been put in a box, and they may not get to right away, but at some point Shelly will go through them and organize them and label them and be able to put stuff into the database of what's there. But in the meantime they're kept someplace. Bobby [Robert A.R.] Parker—when he left JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California], he sent his stuff down to the history archive here in Houston. Same thing. Took her a while to go through all those papers. She's trying to at least collect them so that they can be there, and people can at least go through and start making use of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know that my papers are that organized. I don't have a diary kind of thing on the programs I managed, which almost sounds like that might be what it would be.

[Assistant] It could be. The archivist that's there is Shelly Henley Kelly, and she's gotten boxes—I don't know if you remember a gentleman named Mr. [Louis] Leopold.

[User] Yes, Lou.

[Assistant] We've talked to him. Last time we were there, we put about seven or eight boxes in the back of the vehicle and brought them down to the archives for him. They're just papers that have been put in a box, and they may not get to right away, but at some point Shelly will go through them and organize them and label them and be able to put stuff into the database of what's there. But in the meantime they're kept someplace. Bobby [Robert A.R.] Parker—when he left JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California], he sent his stuff down to the history archive here in Houston. Same thing. Took her a while to go through all those papers. She's trying to at least collect them so that they can be there, and people can at least go through and start making use of them.

[User] I might look through my boxes, because like I say, it's not very well-organized, and some of it's not connected very well. I did come up with one thing, though, I thought of right away. The Challenger was not the only launch in January of 1986. The STS-61C launched earlier in January, and some of the problems we had with the launch attempts that ended up so badly with Challenger, we had in spades with STS-61C. You don't probably read much about these things anymore. The thing you'll read is that we scrubbed six times before we launched on the seventh attempt. I wrote a memo after that happened, and this was to the Shuttle team about the characteristics of all of those scrubs and how avoidable they would have been if we'd just had things synched better some way. So I brought that.

[Assistant] Great. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Lou.

[Assistant] We've talked to him. Last time we were there, we put about seven or eight boxes in the back of the vehicle and brought them down to the archives for him. They're just papers that have been put in a box, and they may not get to right away, but at some point Shelly will go through them and organize them and label them and be able to put stuff into the database of what's there. But in the meantime they're kept someplace. Bobby [Robert A.R.] Parker—when he left JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California], he sent his stuff down to the history archive here in Houston. Same thing. Took her a while to go through all those papers. She's trying to at least collect them so that they can be there, and people can at least go through and start making use of them.

[User] I might look through my boxes, because like I say, it's not very well-organized, and some of it's not connected very well. I did come up with one thing, though, I thought of right away. The Challenger was not the only launch in January of 1986. The STS-61C launched earlier in January, and some of the problems we had with the launch attempts that ended up so badly with Challenger, we had in spades with STS-61C. You don't probably read much about these things anymore. The thing you'll read is that we scrubbed six times before we launched on the seventh attempt. I wrote a memo after that happened, and this was to the Shuttle team about the characteristics of all of those scrubs and how avoidable they would have been if we'd just had things synched better some way. So I brought that.

[Assistant] Great. Thank you.

[User] Because if I was a program manager and going to be into that kind of thing, that might be a series of thought-provoking things.

[Assistant] Is it all right if we scan this in and attach it to your transcript as part of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because if I was a program manager and going to be into that kind of thing, that might be a series of thought-provoking things.

[Assistant] Is it all right if we scan this in and attach it to your transcript as part of this?

[User] Sure. You can have it too. You can keep it.

[Assistant] Okay, good.

[User] You started off asking about Columbia and Challenger. This is something I just collected around 2003. This is a little article by a man that was working on the O-ring analysis at Thiokol back then. It talks about a common cause of the Challenger and the Columbia accidents. It's not talking about flaws in management style as a common cause, which has been pretty well talked about. This is talking about Max Q [Mazimum Dynamic Pressure] and upper-level winds and how they also played into both of these, or potentially did. It's interesting reading, and I haven't seen anybody reference it. But that was in the AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics] magazine, Aerospace America, and I think it was in 2003, which is not long after the Columbia.

[Assistant] Well good. This'll be great information to add as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. You can have it too. You can keep it.

[Assistant] Okay, good.

[User] You started off asking about Columbia and Challenger. This is something I just collected around 2003. This is a little article by a man that was working on the O-ring analysis at Thiokol back then. It talks about a common cause of the Challenger and the Columbia accidents. It's not talking about flaws in management style as a common cause, which has been pretty well talked about. This is talking about Max Q [Mazimum Dynamic Pressure] and upper-level winds and how they also played into both of these, or potentially did. It's interesting reading, and I haven't seen anybody reference it. But that was in the AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics] magazine, Aerospace America, and I think it was in 2003, which is not long after the Columbia.

[Assistant] Well good. This'll be great information to add as well.

[User] I don't know if you want my resume. This is the detailed one. It's so I can keep track of it. No one would read it, but it's complete, which is nice.

[Assistant] I'd love to have it. Thank you. Because the one I have, as you know, stopped a few years ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You started off asking about Columbia and Challenger. This is something I just collected around 2003. This is a little article by a man that was working on the O-ring analysis at Thiokol back then. It talks about a common cause of the Challenger and the Columbia accidents. It's not talking about flaws in management style as a common cause, which has been pretty well talked about. This is talking about Max Q [Mazimum Dynamic Pressure] and upper-level winds and how they also played into both of these, or potentially did. It's interesting reading, and I haven't seen anybody reference it. But that was in the AIAA [American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics] magazine, Aerospace America, and I think it was in 2003, which is not long after the Columbia.

[Assistant] Well good. This'll be great information to add as well.

[User] I don't know if you want my resume. This is the detailed one. It's so I can keep track of it. No one would read it, but it's complete, which is nice.

[Assistant] I'd love to have it. Thank you. Because the one I have, as you know, stopped a few years ago.

[User] I had to have one that was about that long for Lockheed, because no one would do anything with something like that.

[Assistant] It gives us a lot of good background information, so I thank you for bringing all of these things and for spending the morning with us with such great information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to have one that was about that long for Lockheed, because no one would do anything with something like that.

[Assistant] It gives us a lot of good background information, so I thank you for bringing all of these things and for spending the morning with us with such great information.

[User] Two more. There's a lot of books that were written about Challenger, and many of them were written pretty early. There was still a tremendous amount of emotion flowing around and facts not well sorted. I think some of them are just off track, but there's a couple that I think if you were a program manager and you wanted to read about some of that. There's a book written by a guy in Scandinavia. The title is No Downlink. Do you know about that book?

[Assistant] No.

[User] No Downlink is the title. It was written by Claus Jensen in 1993. It was translated by Barbara Haveland in 1996. His accounts in there are very factual. He doesn't draw a lot of conclusions, but occasionally he does. I won't say all of his conclusions are exactly what I conclude, but it's pretty accurate. It's probably more readable than the Rogers Commission stack of books.\n\n Then the other one that has seen a lot of popularity is Challenger Launch Decision [The Challenger Launch Decision: Risky Technology, Culture, and Deviance at NASA ] by Diane Vaughan. It deals extensively with the psychological aspects of management and Challenger. Again, I don't know that her conclusions throughout would synch with what I conclude, but it's a very thought-provoking analysis and a good book to maybe spend some time with.

[Assistant] All right. Thank you so much for coming in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I recently retired. I taught for 30 years. I was professor of history at Spartanburg Methodist College. And then I had a wreck, a teenager ran into me, to the driver's side. And I was driving which means he hit me. I was three months in the hospital and it forced me to retire. I was ready to get Social Security anyway, so I retired.

[Assistant] Ok, now let's just think back about before you went into the Peace Corps. How did you hear about Peace Corps?

[User] I guess, how did I hear about it? In the newspaper, on the news. It was impossible not to hear about it.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] As soon as Kennedy announced it, I wrote off and got all the information, the application form and things like that. I applied soon after it was announced. In ’61 I guess, summer of ’61.

[Assistant] Ok. So then what made you decide at that time to join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess, how did I hear about it? In the newspaper, on the news. It was impossible not to hear about it.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] As soon as Kennedy announced it, I wrote off and got all the information, the application form and things like that. I applied soon after it was announced. In ’61 I guess, summer of ’61.

[Assistant] Ok. So then what made you decide at that time to join the Peace Corps?

[User] It sounded like a great adventure, a chance to get away from school. I've been in school for all these many years. Here’s a chance to go do something, have an adventure, to learn another language, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Ok, so then we what? Did you have a specific area or country where you wanted to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As soon as Kennedy announced it, I wrote off and got all the information, the application form and things like that. I applied soon after it was announced. In ’61 I guess, summer of ’61.

[Assistant] Ok. So then what made you decide at that time to join the Peace Corps?

[User] It sounded like a great adventure, a chance to get away from school. I've been in school for all these many years. Here’s a chance to go do something, have an adventure, to learn another language, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Ok, so then we what? Did you have a specific area or country where you wanted to go?

[User] Not really. I remember I was one of the questions on the application form. I thought if I want to learn a language how to learn a language that is standard language, not some remote thing. So I said a Spanish speaking country.

[Assistant] Ok, so you did say that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It sounded like a great adventure, a chance to get away from school. I've been in school for all these many years. Here’s a chance to go do something, have an adventure, to learn another language, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Ok, so then we what? Did you have a specific area or country where you wanted to go?

[User] Not really. I remember I was one of the questions on the application form. I thought if I want to learn a language how to learn a language that is standard language, not some remote thing. So I said a Spanish speaking country.

[Assistant] Ok, so you did say that.

[User] As I remember.

[Assistant] What did your family and your friends think about you going into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I remember I was one of the questions on the application form. I thought if I want to learn a language how to learn a language that is standard language, not some remote thing. So I said a Spanish speaking country.

[Assistant] Ok, so you did say that.

[User] As I remember.

[Assistant] What did your family and your friends think about you going into the Peace Corps?

[User] They were supportive. My parents especially they were a little nervous at first by going off to go for two years and be gone. But I think they were they were supportive.

[Assistant] Ok, now what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I remember.

[Assistant] What did your family and your friends think about you going into the Peace Corps?

[User] They were supportive. My parents especially they were a little nervous at first by going off to go for two years and be gone. But I think they were they were supportive.

[Assistant] Ok, now what project were you invited to join?

[User] I was invited to join the Heifer Project dairy project in Cochabamba, Bolivia.

[Assistant] Ok, and how did you when you when you were getting ready to go the Peace Corps, did you do any special preparation before you left that you were going to be gone for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were supportive. My parents especially they were a little nervous at first by going off to go for two years and be gone. But I think they were they were supportive.

[Assistant] Ok, now what project were you invited to join?

[User] I was invited to join the Heifer Project dairy project in Cochabamba, Bolivia.

[Assistant] Ok, and how did you when you when you were getting ready to go the Peace Corps, did you do any special preparation before you left that you were going to be gone for a while?

[User] Not not really. I remember we had to take a test in those days. We don’t have to do that anymore. We had to take a Peace Corps test and somewhere around there it said, what farm experience have you had? And I said, I can milk a cow. I grew up on a dairy farm. I know about having dairy cows. I wrote about that. And sure enough, I was invited to join a dairy project group.

[Assistant] Ok, that's great. Ok, when you tell me a little bit about the, what happened after you got your invitation? Did you go to work or training or what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was invited to join the Heifer Project dairy project in Cochabamba, Bolivia.

[Assistant] Ok, and how did you when you when you were getting ready to go the Peace Corps, did you do any special preparation before you left that you were going to be gone for a while?

[User] Not not really. I remember we had to take a test in those days. We don’t have to do that anymore. We had to take a Peace Corps test and somewhere around there it said, what farm experience have you had? And I said, I can milk a cow. I grew up on a dairy farm. I know about having dairy cows. I wrote about that. And sure enough, I was invited to join a dairy project group.

[Assistant] Ok, that's great. Ok, when you tell me a little bit about the, what happened after you got your invitation? Did you go to work or training or what happened?

[User] When I got it in the spring, sometime spring of ‘62 and we went to training in June of ’62, I think. We're there by the Fourth of July, I know. I was in school at Duke University at the time. I got a leave of absence from there and then with the idea of coming back, but I would be gone for two years. I don't think I'd use the other special training that I remember. This was forty five years ago.

[Assistant] Yes, well, we're. What can you tell me about the training or the Peace Corps training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not not really. I remember we had to take a test in those days. We don’t have to do that anymore. We had to take a Peace Corps test and somewhere around there it said, what farm experience have you had? And I said, I can milk a cow. I grew up on a dairy farm. I know about having dairy cows. I wrote about that. And sure enough, I was invited to join a dairy project group.

[Assistant] Ok, that's great. Ok, when you tell me a little bit about the, what happened after you got your invitation? Did you go to work or training or what happened?

[User] When I got it in the spring, sometime spring of ‘62 and we went to training in June of ’62, I think. We're there by the Fourth of July, I know. I was in school at Duke University at the time. I got a leave of absence from there and then with the idea of coming back, but I would be gone for two years. I don't think I'd use the other special training that I remember. This was forty five years ago.

[Assistant] Yes, well, we're. What can you tell me about the training or the Peace Corps training?

[User] I thought the training was really good. Was a good experience. We learned about Bolivian history, Bolivian culture. We learned about Spanish. We also had a good crash course in American history about communism. I remember we talked about that and American culture versus communism, that kind of thing. I also had a lot of first aid I remember. All that was good training. I thought they purposely made the training experience as frustrating as it could be, because the training period was also a selection process, to see who could put up with all the frustration. And so that was kind of a challenge.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what happened when you were in training there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I got it in the spring, sometime spring of ‘62 and we went to training in June of ’62, I think. We're there by the Fourth of July, I know. I was in school at Duke University at the time. I got a leave of absence from there and then with the idea of coming back, but I would be gone for two years. I don't think I'd use the other special training that I remember. This was forty five years ago.

[Assistant] Yes, well, we're. What can you tell me about the training or the Peace Corps training?

[User] I thought the training was really good. Was a good experience. We learned about Bolivian history, Bolivian culture. We learned about Spanish. We also had a good crash course in American history about communism. I remember we talked about that and American culture versus communism, that kind of thing. I also had a lot of first aid I remember. All that was good training. I thought they purposely made the training experience as frustrating as it could be, because the training period was also a selection process, to see who could put up with all the frustration. And so that was kind of a challenge.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what happened when you were in training there?

[User] Well, we were at Arizona State University, on the campus of Arizona State. I had an aunt who lived in Tempe of Phoenix at the time. I went to see her one weekend. Somebody that I knew at Duke had a sister or something that would live in that area and insisted that I call them up to go see them while I was there. I did that. It was never on the reservation. Maricopa Prema Pima Reservation for half of training. Ira Hayes, his mother was there. Ira Hayes was one of those Marines who put the flag up on Iwo Jima and his mother was there. Somebody pointing her out. That was a good experience, living on the reservation with the Indian people.

[Assistant] What do you remember most about that experience out there, about the things you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought the training was really good. Was a good experience. We learned about Bolivian history, Bolivian culture. We learned about Spanish. We also had a good crash course in American history about communism. I remember we talked about that and American culture versus communism, that kind of thing. I also had a lot of first aid I remember. All that was good training. I thought they purposely made the training experience as frustrating as it could be, because the training period was also a selection process, to see who could put up with all the frustration. And so that was kind of a challenge.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what happened when you were in training there?

[User] Well, we were at Arizona State University, on the campus of Arizona State. I had an aunt who lived in Tempe of Phoenix at the time. I went to see her one weekend. Somebody that I knew at Duke had a sister or something that would live in that area and insisted that I call them up to go see them while I was there. I did that. It was never on the reservation. Maricopa Prema Pima Reservation for half of training. Ira Hayes, his mother was there. Ira Hayes was one of those Marines who put the flag up on Iwo Jima and his mother was there. Somebody pointing her out. That was a good experience, living on the reservation with the Indian people.

[Assistant] What do you remember most about that experience out there, about the things you did?

[User] We were living in a trailer. We had to fix our own food, fix our own meals, or at least what today we part of the frustration to see if we could get along doing that. I think after six hours in the trailer, only two of us went I think. The other four psyched themselves out or decided not to go.

[Assistant] Wow. So was there anything about that training that surprised you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were at Arizona State University, on the campus of Arizona State. I had an aunt who lived in Tempe of Phoenix at the time. I went to see her one weekend. Somebody that I knew at Duke had a sister or something that would live in that area and insisted that I call them up to go see them while I was there. I did that. It was never on the reservation. Maricopa Prema Pima Reservation for half of training. Ira Hayes, his mother was there. Ira Hayes was one of those Marines who put the flag up on Iwo Jima and his mother was there. Somebody pointing her out. That was a good experience, living on the reservation with the Indian people.

[Assistant] What do you remember most about that experience out there, about the things you did?

[User] We were living in a trailer. We had to fix our own food, fix our own meals, or at least what today we part of the frustration to see if we could get along doing that. I think after six hours in the trailer, only two of us went I think. The other four psyched themselves out or decided not to go.

[Assistant] Wow. So was there anything about that training that surprised you?

[User] I guess I was surprised at how frustrating it was, I thought they would be more encouraging, I suppose. There was a challenge to see who would put up with all of that.

[Assistant] Ok, so after the training in Arizona, then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were living in a trailer. We had to fix our own food, fix our own meals, or at least what today we part of the frustration to see if we could get along doing that. I think after six hours in the trailer, only two of us went I think. The other four psyched themselves out or decided not to go.

[Assistant] Wow. So was there anything about that training that surprised you?

[User] I guess I was surprised at how frustrating it was, I thought they would be more encouraging, I suppose. There was a challenge to see who would put up with all of that.

[Assistant] Ok, so after the training in Arizona, then what happened?

[User] We went home. I think a week and then we were all gathered in Miami. We would go to Bolivia.

[Assistant] Wait before before we went to Miami. Where did we go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I was surprised at how frustrating it was, I thought they would be more encouraging, I suppose. There was a challenge to see who would put up with all of that.

[Assistant] Ok, so after the training in Arizona, then what happened?

[User] We went home. I think a week and then we were all gathered in Miami. We would go to Bolivia.

[Assistant] Wait before before we went to Miami. Where did we go?

[User] Well, that's what I'm going to say. In Miami, ready to go to Bolivia. We were eating supper and Kennedy came on TV and said we are blockading Cuba and we may go to war any minute. And meanwhile, there was some trouble in La Paz, so they decided we could not go to La Paz at that time. They took us to Vermont where they had a Peace Corps training house, and we stayed there for two weeks, three weeks in November before we went to Bolivia. So things kind of calmed down. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, we went to Vermont.

[Assistant] Ok, what do you remember about that was Brattleboro, Vermont?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went home. I think a week and then we were all gathered in Miami. We would go to Bolivia.

[Assistant] Wait before before we went to Miami. Where did we go?

[User] Well, that's what I'm going to say. In Miami, ready to go to Bolivia. We were eating supper and Kennedy came on TV and said we are blockading Cuba and we may go to war any minute. And meanwhile, there was some trouble in La Paz, so they decided we could not go to La Paz at that time. They took us to Vermont where they had a Peace Corps training house, and we stayed there for two weeks, three weeks in November before we went to Bolivia. So things kind of calmed down. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, we went to Vermont.

[Assistant] Ok, what do you remember about that was Brattleboro, Vermont?

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont. That was very nice experience. Fall time of the year, the birch trees were changing, very beautiful. And we knew we were not going to be selected out, we’d been selected. That was a good time there.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you recall about what you recall anything special about being in Vermont?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's what I'm going to say. In Miami, ready to go to Bolivia. We were eating supper and Kennedy came on TV and said we are blockading Cuba and we may go to war any minute. And meanwhile, there was some trouble in La Paz, so they decided we could not go to La Paz at that time. They took us to Vermont where they had a Peace Corps training house, and we stayed there for two weeks, three weeks in November before we went to Bolivia. So things kind of calmed down. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, we went to Vermont.

[Assistant] Ok, what do you remember about that was Brattleboro, Vermont?

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont. That was very nice experience. Fall time of the year, the birch trees were changing, very beautiful. And we knew we were not going to be selected out, we’d been selected. That was a good time there.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you recall about what you recall anything special about being in Vermont?

[User] We sat around a lot, played bridge, read books. We tried having Spanish classes, and they took us all into Boston one weekend. I visited my cousin at Harvard and he was surprised to see me there. Thought I was in Bolivia. But yeah, I was in Boston. George and I went together around the harbor to see him.

[Assistant] Ok, so when you finally got to Bolivia, what were your impressions when you were first coming?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont. That was very nice experience. Fall time of the year, the birch trees were changing, very beautiful. And we knew we were not going to be selected out, we’d been selected. That was a good time there.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you recall about what you recall anything special about being in Vermont?

[User] We sat around a lot, played bridge, read books. We tried having Spanish classes, and they took us all into Boston one weekend. I visited my cousin at Harvard and he was surprised to see me there. Thought I was in Bolivia. But yeah, I was in Boston. George and I went together around the harbor to see him.

[Assistant] Ok, so when you finally got to Bolivia, what were your impressions when you were first coming?

[User] When we got to the airport, I left my camera on the airplane and I ran back to get it and I got all exhausted. I was sick the rest of the day because of the altitude. They had to have oxygen available in the airport, at 13,000 feet. And at that time, the airport would not pay. Our guests would come up when the plane landed. I was I was kind of sick for the first few days in La Paz.

[Assistant] So when. Well, tell me a little bit about what happened while you were in La Paz at the beginning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We sat around a lot, played bridge, read books. We tried having Spanish classes, and they took us all into Boston one weekend. I visited my cousin at Harvard and he was surprised to see me there. Thought I was in Bolivia. But yeah, I was in Boston. George and I went together around the harbor to see him.

[Assistant] Ok, so when you finally got to Bolivia, what were your impressions when you were first coming?

[User] When we got to the airport, I left my camera on the airplane and I ran back to get it and I got all exhausted. I was sick the rest of the day because of the altitude. They had to have oxygen available in the airport, at 13,000 feet. And at that time, the airport would not pay. Our guests would come up when the plane landed. I was I was kind of sick for the first few days in La Paz.

[Assistant] So when. Well, tell me a little bit about what happened while you were in La Paz at the beginning.

[User] I can’t remember. We had lots of lectures. We met various people. I think we met the president. I guess the ambassador. I don't remember. It was cold. We were glad to get Cochabamba. Cochabamba was much nicer than La Paz. It was cold, you couldn’t walk fast because of the altitude, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So what do you remember anything about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we got to the airport, I left my camera on the airplane and I ran back to get it and I got all exhausted. I was sick the rest of the day because of the altitude. They had to have oxygen available in the airport, at 13,000 feet. And at that time, the airport would not pay. Our guests would come up when the plane landed. I was I was kind of sick for the first few days in La Paz.

[Assistant] So when. Well, tell me a little bit about what happened while you were in La Paz at the beginning.

[User] I can’t remember. We had lots of lectures. We met various people. I think we met the president. I guess the ambassador. I don't remember. It was cold. We were glad to get Cochabamba. Cochabamba was much nicer than La Paz. It was cold, you couldn’t walk fast because of the altitude, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So what do you remember anything about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?

[User] We were in a jeep. There were about ten or twelve jeeps that were driving along a very narrow road, cars and trucks couldn’t pass each other. They had to stop and one would back at to get the a wide place of the road, to let the other one go by. It took all day to get from La Paz to Cochabamba. l was glad to see green trees, grass growing, at Cochabamba, which we did not see in La Paz.

[Assistant] That's true. OK, when you first got there, what were your impressions of the local people, the Peace Corps staff and all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember. We had lots of lectures. We met various people. I think we met the president. I guess the ambassador. I don't remember. It was cold. We were glad to get Cochabamba. Cochabamba was much nicer than La Paz. It was cold, you couldn’t walk fast because of the altitude, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So what do you remember anything about the trip from La Paz to Cochabamba?

[User] We were in a jeep. There were about ten or twelve jeeps that were driving along a very narrow road, cars and trucks couldn’t pass each other. They had to stop and one would back at to get the a wide place of the road, to let the other one go by. It took all day to get from La Paz to Cochabamba. l was glad to see green trees, grass growing, at Cochabamba, which we did not see in La Paz.

[Assistant] That's true. OK, when you first got there, what were your impressions of the local people, the Peace Corps staff and all that?

[User] Well, for about a week we live in a hotel in downtown Cochabamba. We continue to have orientation observers around the city and around the countryside. I was very impressed. It was so much better than La Paz. I liked it better.

[Assistant] Ok, did you, um.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in a jeep. There were about ten or twelve jeeps that were driving along a very narrow road, cars and trucks couldn’t pass each other. They had to stop and one would back at to get the a wide place of the road, to let the other one go by. It took all day to get from La Paz to Cochabamba. l was glad to see green trees, grass growing, at Cochabamba, which we did not see in La Paz.

[Assistant] That's true. OK, when you first got there, what were your impressions of the local people, the Peace Corps staff and all that?

[User] Well, for about a week we live in a hotel in downtown Cochabamba. We continue to have orientation observers around the city and around the countryside. I was very impressed. It was so much better than La Paz. I liked it better.

[Assistant] Ok, did you, um.

[User] I discovered right away the central Boliviano Americano. That was a library and had books in English there. And right away I got some books.

[Assistant] Great. Can you talk about what you actually did down there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I knew what I was doing. Sam came back and he and I together had a jeep. I kept the jeep at my house. Sam and I worked together and he would go to a farm and then I would go to a farm and I would pick him up or vice versa. Usually the man would want me to stay and eat breakfast and I would like to try to get out of it if I could, but I’d often would have to think so. If you were used it hot it was okay. Yeah.

[Assistant] So is that pretty much the majority of what you did then?

[User] The majority of what I did, I was a milk tester.

[Assistant] What about when you weren't working? What kinds of things that you do?

[User] Ok, right. Our basketball team. Mr. Wolf organized us into a team and we were just sitting there playing basketball. I started playing softball with some of them were our softball. We went to the movies. No television in Bolivia at that time, there were no televisions. So movies were a thing. Movies were about two or three years old. So movies that I had missed couple of years earlier were now coming around current in Bolivia. I went to movies a lot. I read books from the English-speaking library. There was an English speaking school in Cochabamba and for six weeks or so I taught at school while somebody was sick or something. But I remember I taught, I think, geography and American history.

[Assistant] Well, that was kind of fun, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, right. Our basketball team. Mr. Wolf organized us into a team and we were just sitting there playing basketball. I started playing softball with some of them were our softball. We went to the movies. No television in Bolivia at that time, there were no televisions. So movies were a thing. Movies were about two or three years old. So movies that I had missed couple of years earlier were now coming around current in Bolivia. I went to movies a lot. I read books from the English-speaking library. There was an English speaking school in Cochabamba and for six weeks or so I taught at school while somebody was sick or something. But I remember I taught, I think, geography and American history.

[Assistant] Well, that was kind of fun, I guess.

[User] It was kind of fun.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I also taught an English class for a while. Bolivians wanted to learn English, so I taught an English class. I realized they were all speaking with a Southern accent and because they were trying to imitate me, and I was teaching them a drawl with a southern accent.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, so over the time that you were there, how did you your life and your work changed? Did you adapt pretty easily or what? How did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was kind of fun.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I also taught an English class for a while. Bolivians wanted to learn English, so I taught an English class. I realized they were all speaking with a Southern accent and because they were trying to imitate me, and I was teaching them a drawl with a southern accent.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, so over the time that you were there, how did you your life and your work changed? Did you adapt pretty easily or what? How did that go?

[User] I remember at the end of our two years we had a conference and why the question that came back was how did this experience change you. And my answer was, I had a new appreciation for agriculture. I learned that you can work with cows, work with people, working with cows, and not getting all mad and frustrated which was my case at home. And I decided not to go back to divinity school, but to get some kind of master's degree. And I didn't want to go back to the farm where I grew up and take over the farm. But if I could have a master’s degree to get into one of the local colleges somewhere around there. And I have a hand in the college community where they always need English teachers, so I decided to go back in English.

[Assistant] Great. Let's talk about the end of the first year, midway between over midway through your experience. Do you remember any kind of special events or how you were feeling at that point in time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I also taught an English class for a while. Bolivians wanted to learn English, so I taught an English class. I realized they were all speaking with a Southern accent and because they were trying to imitate me, and I was teaching them a drawl with a southern accent.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, so over the time that you were there, how did you your life and your work changed? Did you adapt pretty easily or what? How did that go?

[User] I remember at the end of our two years we had a conference and why the question that came back was how did this experience change you. And my answer was, I had a new appreciation for agriculture. I learned that you can work with cows, work with people, working with cows, and not getting all mad and frustrated which was my case at home. And I decided not to go back to divinity school, but to get some kind of master's degree. And I didn't want to go back to the farm where I grew up and take over the farm. But if I could have a master’s degree to get into one of the local colleges somewhere around there. And I have a hand in the college community where they always need English teachers, so I decided to go back in English.

[Assistant] Great. Let's talk about the end of the first year, midway between over midway through your experience. Do you remember any kind of special events or how you were feeling at that point in time?

[User] By halfway through, I guess looking forward to it all being over. I kept thinking, you know, six months to go, four months to go, things like that. But by the time it got to the end, the less I wanted to leave. I did not consider extending though.

[Assistant] It was hard to leave them at the end, I guess. So what did you live with a family like some of the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember at the end of our two years we had a conference and why the question that came back was how did this experience change you. And my answer was, I had a new appreciation for agriculture. I learned that you can work with cows, work with people, working with cows, and not getting all mad and frustrated which was my case at home. And I decided not to go back to divinity school, but to get some kind of master's degree. And I didn't want to go back to the farm where I grew up and take over the farm. But if I could have a master’s degree to get into one of the local colleges somewhere around there. And I have a hand in the college community where they always need English teachers, so I decided to go back in English.

[Assistant] Great. Let's talk about the end of the first year, midway between over midway through your experience. Do you remember any kind of special events or how you were feeling at that point in time?

[User] By halfway through, I guess looking forward to it all being over. I kept thinking, you know, six months to go, four months to go, things like that. But by the time it got to the end, the less I wanted to leave. I did not consider extending though.

[Assistant] It was hard to leave them at the end, I guess. So what did you live with a family like some of the other?

[User] At first, Ed Dennison and I lived with a family out near Sicavo, way out in the country. That was not satisfactory about three or four months after we had been there, we moved into town with a family where he had right there in my home. We already were living I was living with this family in downtown Cochabamba, right near the post office.

[Assistant] Did that work out better?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By halfway through, I guess looking forward to it all being over. I kept thinking, you know, six months to go, four months to go, things like that. But by the time it got to the end, the less I wanted to leave. I did not consider extending though.

[Assistant] It was hard to leave them at the end, I guess. So what did you live with a family like some of the other?

[User] At first, Ed Dennison and I lived with a family out near Sicavo, way out in the country. That was not satisfactory about three or four months after we had been there, we moved into town with a family where he had right there in my home. We already were living I was living with this family in downtown Cochabamba, right near the post office.

[Assistant] Did that work out better?

[User] That worked out much better. You were closer to the people, also close to the beach office and all that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Right. Did you have any health problems or anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At first, Ed Dennison and I lived with a family out near Sicavo, way out in the country. That was not satisfactory about three or four months after we had been there, we moved into town with a family where he had right there in my home. We already were living I was living with this family in downtown Cochabamba, right near the post office.

[Assistant] Did that work out better?

[User] That worked out much better. You were closer to the people, also close to the beach office and all that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Right. Did you have any health problems or anything like that?

[User] Everybody had health problems. I guess I had diarrhea some. I wasn’t really bad sick, no.

[Assistant] How about did you do any good? Get to do any traveling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do vacation. And I went to Ecuador and also in the Foreign Service in Quito. My parents came down and stayed about two weeks in Quito. I went to Quito. Another time I went to Brazil. In Rio. One day to Brasilia and Sao Paolo, about a week over there. Also traveled all around in Bolivia, went to Sucre, Santa Cruz, Trinidad. I never went to Potosi and I regret that. I never went to see Potosi. Went to La Paz a couple of times.

[Assistant] So, uh.

[User] And Sucre.

[Assistant] And Sucre.

[User] And Oruro.

[Assistant] Oruro for carnival.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Sucre.

[Assistant] And Sucre.

[User] And Oruro.

[Assistant] Oruro for carnival.

[User] Oruro for carnival.

[Assistant] Ok, so overall, when you finished your tour there, you said you were not you were not looking forward to leaving at the end, but you didn't extend. How did you feel about what you had done there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Oruro.

[Assistant] Oruro for carnival.

[User] Oruro for carnival.

[Assistant] Ok, so overall, when you finished your tour there, you said you were not you were not looking forward to leaving at the end, but you didn't extend. How did you feel about what you had done there?

[User] Well, we set up this milk testing program. There were two Bolivian boys with us and we taught them how to do it. They were supposed to take it over from us what we finished and they did. I don't think it continued. I think actually that the farmers had to pay to be a part of the program. And I don't know how many of them did that. I think it ended soon after we left. You have to remember, because the Bolivians who had had and I don't know if the people gave them our Jeep or told them or what, but I don't think it lasted. I don't know how much good we actually did in Bolivia. We had a big time with a good learning experience for us, but I'm not sure how much we actually helped Bolivians.

[Assistant] Ok, so how did that make you feel at the end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oruro for carnival.

[Assistant] Ok, so overall, when you finished your tour there, you said you were not you were not looking forward to leaving at the end, but you didn't extend. How did you feel about what you had done there?

[User] Well, we set up this milk testing program. There were two Bolivian boys with us and we taught them how to do it. They were supposed to take it over from us what we finished and they did. I don't think it continued. I think actually that the farmers had to pay to be a part of the program. And I don't know how many of them did that. I think it ended soon after we left. You have to remember, because the Bolivians who had had and I don't know if the people gave them our Jeep or told them or what, but I don't think it lasted. I don't know how much good we actually did in Bolivia. We had a big time with a good learning experience for us, but I'm not sure how much we actually helped Bolivians.

[Assistant] Ok, so how did that make you feel at the end?

[User] Well, I came home I was kind of a celebrity. Everybody wanted me to come to talk to book clubs, school classes, that kind of thing. I had lots of slides, so I was ready. I put my, developed a standard talk that lasted about 45 minutes ago, showing the slides. And so when I got out, I had a good experience, I said, I learned a lot. I had a big adventure, had a good time. I'm not sure how much good we actually did, though, in the long run.

[Assistant] Hard to measure that kind of stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we set up this milk testing program. There were two Bolivian boys with us and we taught them how to do it. They were supposed to take it over from us what we finished and they did. I don't think it continued. I think actually that the farmers had to pay to be a part of the program. And I don't know how many of them did that. I think it ended soon after we left. You have to remember, because the Bolivians who had had and I don't know if the people gave them our Jeep or told them or what, but I don't think it lasted. I don't know how much good we actually did in Bolivia. We had a big time with a good learning experience for us, but I'm not sure how much we actually helped Bolivians.

[Assistant] Ok, so how did that make you feel at the end?

[User] Well, I came home I was kind of a celebrity. Everybody wanted me to come to talk to book clubs, school classes, that kind of thing. I had lots of slides, so I was ready. I put my, developed a standard talk that lasted about 45 minutes ago, showing the slides. And so when I got out, I had a good experience, I said, I learned a lot. I had a big adventure, had a good time. I'm not sure how much good we actually did, though, in the long run.

[Assistant] Hard to measure that kind of stuff.

[User] Yeah, hard to measure that.

[Assistant] If you had it to do over again, would you do anything differently?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I came home I was kind of a celebrity. Everybody wanted me to come to talk to book clubs, school classes, that kind of thing. I had lots of slides, so I was ready. I put my, developed a standard talk that lasted about 45 minutes ago, showing the slides. And so when I got out, I had a good experience, I said, I learned a lot. I had a big adventure, had a good time. I'm not sure how much good we actually did, though, in the long run.

[Assistant] Hard to measure that kind of stuff.

[User] Yeah, hard to measure that.

[Assistant] If you had it to do over again, would you do anything differently?

[User] Oh, I don't know. I guess not. As I said, I was very lucky in the place that I went, Cochabamba is eternal spring time. Not too hot, not to cold. With who I worked with, with Heifer Project and Mr. Wolf, with Luis Barrone at the milk plant, he’d been to Cornell, knew how to run a milk plant, about the kind of work I did. I had something specific to do every day, which I could do. And I was very lucky in what I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. So overall, how would you evaluate the service that you did? And of course, you know, the goals, they talk about providing technical assistance and a better understanding of the U.S. and then for Americans to better understand other countries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, hard to measure that.

[Assistant] If you had it to do over again, would you do anything differently?

[User] Oh, I don't know. I guess not. As I said, I was very lucky in the place that I went, Cochabamba is eternal spring time. Not too hot, not to cold. With who I worked with, with Heifer Project and Mr. Wolf, with Luis Barrone at the milk plant, he’d been to Cornell, knew how to run a milk plant, about the kind of work I did. I had something specific to do every day, which I could do. And I was very lucky in what I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. So overall, how would you evaluate the service that you did? And of course, you know, the goals, they talk about providing technical assistance and a better understanding of the U.S. and then for Americans to better understand other countries.

[User] Well, the last two, I think we did very good. Certainly helped me. I think we helped a lot of Bolivians understand about Americans. I'm not sure how much we taught Bolivians, though, not sure how much we helped them. Yeah, but certainly they got to understand us, they learned about softball, they learned some English. A good number of Bolivians came to the States because of us. Came to go to school, came to live, whatever, but because of us a good number of Bolivians came. A good number of our group married Bolivians, if I remember.

[Assistant] Was there was there are quite a lot of dating and things like that in Cochabamba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don't know. I guess not. As I said, I was very lucky in the place that I went, Cochabamba is eternal spring time. Not too hot, not to cold. With who I worked with, with Heifer Project and Mr. Wolf, with Luis Barrone at the milk plant, he’d been to Cornell, knew how to run a milk plant, about the kind of work I did. I had something specific to do every day, which I could do. And I was very lucky in what I did.

[Assistant] Yeah. So overall, how would you evaluate the service that you did? And of course, you know, the goals, they talk about providing technical assistance and a better understanding of the U.S. and then for Americans to better understand other countries.

[User] Well, the last two, I think we did very good. Certainly helped me. I think we helped a lot of Bolivians understand about Americans. I'm not sure how much we taught Bolivians, though, not sure how much we helped them. Yeah, but certainly they got to understand us, they learned about softball, they learned some English. A good number of Bolivians came to the States because of us. Came to go to school, came to live, whatever, but because of us a good number of Bolivians came. A good number of our group married Bolivians, if I remember.

[Assistant] Was there was there are quite a lot of dating and things like that in Cochabamba?

[User] We were invited to a lots of parties. We had to go eat with people around a lot. A lot of the young men, males our age, were away in the States, in Spain, in Lima, Buenos Aires or some place. And that left a lot girls who were our age who were sort of there looking for somebody. So we were invited to lots of dances, lots of parties.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia over the years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the last two, I think we did very good. Certainly helped me. I think we helped a lot of Bolivians understand about Americans. I'm not sure how much we taught Bolivians, though, not sure how much we helped them. Yeah, but certainly they got to understand us, they learned about softball, they learned some English. A good number of Bolivians came to the States because of us. Came to go to school, came to live, whatever, but because of us a good number of Bolivians came. A good number of our group married Bolivians, if I remember.

[Assistant] Was there was there are quite a lot of dating and things like that in Cochabamba?

[User] We were invited to a lots of parties. We had to go eat with people around a lot. A lot of the young men, males our age, were away in the States, in Spain, in Lima, Buenos Aires or some place. And that left a lot girls who were our age who were sort of there looking for somebody. So we were invited to lots of dances, lots of parties.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia over the years?

[User] Not really. I've been back twice. I went in the summer of ‘66 with George Wright and his friends and Marybeth and I went in the summer of ‘73, it was November, December by the time we got there. I haven't been back since. I read about them in the paper, but I haven't really kept up much.

[Assistant] So can we talk a little bit about what how this changed your life? You mentioned some about that in the beginning. How did the Peace Corps? Are you doing different things than you would have done had you not gone into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were invited to a lots of parties. We had to go eat with people around a lot. A lot of the young men, males our age, were away in the States, in Spain, in Lima, Buenos Aires or some place. And that left a lot girls who were our age who were sort of there looking for somebody. So we were invited to lots of dances, lots of parties.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. Have you continued any kind of involvement with Bolivia over the years?

[User] Not really. I've been back twice. I went in the summer of ‘66 with George Wright and his friends and Marybeth and I went in the summer of ‘73, it was November, December by the time we got there. I haven't been back since. I read about them in the paper, but I haven't really kept up much.

[Assistant] So can we talk a little bit about what how this changed your life? You mentioned some about that in the beginning. How did the Peace Corps? Are you doing different things than you would have done had you not gone into the Peace Corps?

[User] I'm sure I'm sure I have, but I don't know what.

[Assistant] You said you decided not to do divinity school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I've been back twice. I went in the summer of ‘66 with George Wright and his friends and Marybeth and I went in the summer of ‘73, it was November, December by the time we got there. I haven't been back since. I read about them in the paper, but I haven't really kept up much.

[Assistant] So can we talk a little bit about what how this changed your life? You mentioned some about that in the beginning. How did the Peace Corps? Are you doing different things than you would have done had you not gone into the Peace Corps?

[User] I'm sure I'm sure I have, but I don't know what.

[Assistant] You said you decided not to do divinity school.

[User] Yeah, I got a master's degree in English and they called me back my undergraduate school. And old man died, they need an English teacher, so I went three years of teaching English. I’m not an English teach, I found that out. I found out, though, I like being in the college community. And if I was going to stay in it, I needed a PhD. So I went back to graduate school in history this time because a good friend of mine was doing Latin American history and I was sitting in her bed and being a resource for her. And I liked something about Bolivia, about Latin America geography. So I went to the University of Texas and got a PhD in history. I say I went to Texas and got two degrees and a wife.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a pretty significant change, you go from divinity school to English and then history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure I'm sure I have, but I don't know what.

[Assistant] You said you decided not to do divinity school.

[User] Yeah, I got a master's degree in English and they called me back my undergraduate school. And old man died, they need an English teacher, so I went three years of teaching English. I’m not an English teach, I found that out. I found out, though, I like being in the college community. And if I was going to stay in it, I needed a PhD. So I went back to graduate school in history this time because a good friend of mine was doing Latin American history and I was sitting in her bed and being a resource for her. And I liked something about Bolivia, about Latin America geography. So I went to the University of Texas and got a PhD in history. I say I went to Texas and got two degrees and a wife.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a pretty significant change, you go from divinity school to English and then history.

[User] I’ve done a lot of things, probably fooled around too much.

[Assistant] But how do you think the Peace Corps experience affected you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I got a master's degree in English and they called me back my undergraduate school. And old man died, they need an English teacher, so I went three years of teaching English. I’m not an English teach, I found that out. I found out, though, I like being in the college community. And if I was going to stay in it, I needed a PhD. So I went back to graduate school in history this time because a good friend of mine was doing Latin American history and I was sitting in her bed and being a resource for her. And I liked something about Bolivia, about Latin America geography. So I went to the University of Texas and got a PhD in history. I say I went to Texas and got two degrees and a wife.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a pretty significant change, you go from divinity school to English and then history.

[User] I’ve done a lot of things, probably fooled around too much.

[Assistant] But how do you think the Peace Corps experience affected you?

[User] A more international outlook, more tolerant of people who are not just like me? I don't know. There are all kinds of ways that I can’t think of or mention specifically.

[Assistant] Can you think of any kind of specific things that happened that will really stick out in your mind while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve done a lot of things, probably fooled around too much.

[Assistant] But how do you think the Peace Corps experience affected you?

[User] A more international outlook, more tolerant of people who are not just like me? I don't know. There are all kinds of ways that I can’t think of or mention specifically.

[Assistant] Can you think of any kind of specific things that happened that will really stick out in your mind while you were there?

[User] When I went there and they were kind of humiliating and the farm where I was to get the cow’s milk and it was across the river and one night it rained and rained and rained. And I went out there in the dark in the morning and crossed the river ok. I stayed at the man’s place and when I came back, the river was as high as I had ever seen it. I thought about all the Peace Corps training, about how they said always try. So I started across the river, three deep channels in the river. I got across two of them. On the third one, the water was coming up over the hood of the jeep and the motor conked out. The car began floating down the river, turned over its the side. I got the milk samples, I climbed out, got on top of the thing, it turned over. People lined up all the way along the banks to watch what I was going to do. I finally got out, waited another hour or so for the water to go down, but very embarrassing. I had to come pull the Jeep out, and it didn’t cause all that too much damage, just labor, not replace any parts. But the Jeep was out of commission for a week or so while they cleaned it out. That's very embarrassing, floated down the river in a Jeep.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty, pretty interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A more international outlook, more tolerant of people who are not just like me? I don't know. There are all kinds of ways that I can’t think of or mention specifically.

[Assistant] Can you think of any kind of specific things that happened that will really stick out in your mind while you were there?

[User] When I went there and they were kind of humiliating and the farm where I was to get the cow’s milk and it was across the river and one night it rained and rained and rained. And I went out there in the dark in the morning and crossed the river ok. I stayed at the man’s place and when I came back, the river was as high as I had ever seen it. I thought about all the Peace Corps training, about how they said always try. So I started across the river, three deep channels in the river. I got across two of them. On the third one, the water was coming up over the hood of the jeep and the motor conked out. The car began floating down the river, turned over its the side. I got the milk samples, I climbed out, got on top of the thing, it turned over. People lined up all the way along the banks to watch what I was going to do. I finally got out, waited another hour or so for the water to go down, but very embarrassing. I had to come pull the Jeep out, and it didn’t cause all that too much damage, just labor, not replace any parts. But the Jeep was out of commission for a week or so while they cleaned it out. That's very embarrassing, floated down the river in a Jeep.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty, pretty interesting.

[User] But I saved the milk samples.

[Assistant] Well. That's good. Tell me, can you think of any other experiences that were especially memorable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I went there and they were kind of humiliating and the farm where I was to get the cow’s milk and it was across the river and one night it rained and rained and rained. And I went out there in the dark in the morning and crossed the river ok. I stayed at the man’s place and when I came back, the river was as high as I had ever seen it. I thought about all the Peace Corps training, about how they said always try. So I started across the river, three deep channels in the river. I got across two of them. On the third one, the water was coming up over the hood of the jeep and the motor conked out. The car began floating down the river, turned over its the side. I got the milk samples, I climbed out, got on top of the thing, it turned over. People lined up all the way along the banks to watch what I was going to do. I finally got out, waited another hour or so for the water to go down, but very embarrassing. I had to come pull the Jeep out, and it didn’t cause all that too much damage, just labor, not replace any parts. But the Jeep was out of commission for a week or so while they cleaned it out. That's very embarrassing, floated down the river in a Jeep.

[Assistant] Well that’s pretty, pretty interesting.

[User] But I saved the milk samples.

[Assistant] Well. That's good. Tell me, can you think of any other experiences that were especially memorable?

[User] National Geographic photographer came down and wrote a story about us and Peace Corps in Bolivia and it was in the October ’64 issue. And Ed Dennsion was his contact. I lived with Ed so I went around with him. He took thousands of pictures and I was in maybe nine hundred of those pictures, but none of them got in the National Geographic, none of them with me in them. He had about fifteen pictures in the National Geographic. I was in Bolivia. Well, I think it was October ‘64 was that issue I think.

[Assistant] So. And anything that was not funny or not pleasant that happened that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] National Geographic photographer came down and wrote a story about us and Peace Corps in Bolivia and it was in the October ’64 issue. And Ed Dennsion was his contact. I lived with Ed so I went around with him. He took thousands of pictures and I was in maybe nine hundred of those pictures, but none of them got in the National Geographic, none of them with me in them. He had about fifteen pictures in the National Geographic. I was in Bolivia. Well, I think it was October ‘64 was that issue I think.

[Assistant] So. And anything that was not funny or not pleasant that happened that you remember?

[User] You have the routine work that can be pretty frustrating at times. I’d always lock the Jeep, but things would get stolen out of the Jeep. Anything left unattended would get stolen. Once a man picked my pocket, tried to get my watch out of my pocket. I grabbed him in time and got the watch back. All of that was.

[Assistant] Assassinated?

[User] Yes, it was in the early afternoon, we were taking a siesta and Ed Dennison came in and said there’s something on the radio about Kennedy being shot. We walked up, Larry Oglesby and I, to the, I guess, American consulate. And sure enough the news coming in there and Kennedy had been shot and everybody in Bolivia was just devastated. Flags were at half staff. We went to mass on Sunday, which was a special mass for Kennedy. I remember seeing a Bolivian woman, an Indian woman, sitting on the floor nursing a baby in the mass.

[Assistant] What do you think it affected people so much in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have the routine work that can be pretty frustrating at times. I’d always lock the Jeep, but things would get stolen out of the Jeep. Anything left unattended would get stolen. Once a man picked my pocket, tried to get my watch out of my pocket. I grabbed him in time and got the watch back. All of that was.

[Assistant] Assassinated?

[User] Yes, it was in the early afternoon, we were taking a siesta and Ed Dennison came in and said there’s something on the radio about Kennedy being shot. We walked up, Larry Oglesby and I, to the, I guess, American consulate. And sure enough the news coming in there and Kennedy had been shot and everybody in Bolivia was just devastated. Flags were at half staff. We went to mass on Sunday, which was a special mass for Kennedy. I remember seeing a Bolivian woman, an Indian woman, sitting on the floor nursing a baby in the mass.

[Assistant] What do you think it affected people so much in Bolivia?

[User] Kennedy was extremely popular, partly because he was Catholic, partly because of the Alliance for Progress that was going on there.

[Assistant] Well, that was pretty impressive. What was traveling around Bolivia, like you said, you had traveled around in Bolivia?