[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was in the early afternoon, we were taking a siesta and Ed Dennison came in and said there’s something on the radio about Kennedy being shot. We walked up, Larry Oglesby and I, to the, I guess, American consulate. And sure enough the news coming in there and Kennedy had been shot and everybody in Bolivia was just devastated. Flags were at half staff. We went to mass on Sunday, which was a special mass for Kennedy. I remember seeing a Bolivian woman, an Indian woman, sitting on the floor nursing a baby in the mass.

[Assistant] What do you think it affected people so much in Bolivia?

[User] Kennedy was extremely popular, partly because he was Catholic, partly because of the Alliance for Progress that was going on there.

[Assistant] Well, that was pretty impressive. What was traveling around Bolivia, like you said, you had traveled around in Bolivia?

[User] Again, I remember I went to Santa Cruz, five or six of us on a bus. The bus caught on fire, the Bolivians guys panicked and screamed and ran to the door. And I noticed all the Peace Corps people sat calmly and everybody else piled off the bus and we kindly got up and walked out the bus.

[Assistant] So what happened to the fire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kennedy was extremely popular, partly because he was Catholic, partly because of the Alliance for Progress that was going on there.

[Assistant] Well, that was pretty impressive. What was traveling around Bolivia, like you said, you had traveled around in Bolivia?

[User] Again, I remember I went to Santa Cruz, five or six of us on a bus. The bus caught on fire, the Bolivians guys panicked and screamed and ran to the door. And I noticed all the Peace Corps people sat calmly and everybody else piled off the bus and we kindly got up and walked out the bus.

[Assistant] So what happened to the fire?

[User] That put out, got the bus fixed, we went on to Santa Cruz. Yeah.

[Assistant] How about that? Is that typical of the bus trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Again, I remember I went to Santa Cruz, five or six of us on a bus. The bus caught on fire, the Bolivians guys panicked and screamed and ran to the door. And I noticed all the Peace Corps people sat calmly and everybody else piled off the bus and we kindly got up and walked out the bus.

[Assistant] So what happened to the fire?

[User] That put out, got the bus fixed, we went on to Santa Cruz. Yeah.

[Assistant] How about that? Is that typical of the bus trips?

[User] Yeah. When I went to Ecuador, I flew from La Paz and I rode the milk truck up to La Paz. Every night the milk plant rode from the leche plant, the milk plant to Laz Paz. And I rode with them to take it to La Paz. And that would go over those very narrow roads, dirt everywhere, coal. But it was free.

[Assistant] That had to be an adventure in and of itself. Did you ever get down to the tropical areas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That put out, got the bus fixed, we went on to Santa Cruz. Yeah.

[Assistant] How about that? Is that typical of the bus trips?

[User] Yeah. When I went to Ecuador, I flew from La Paz and I rode the milk truck up to La Paz. Every night the milk plant rode from the leche plant, the milk plant to Laz Paz. And I rode with them to take it to La Paz. And that would go over those very narrow roads, dirt everywhere, coal. But it was free.

[Assistant] That had to be an adventure in and of itself. Did you ever get down to the tropical areas?

[User] Yes. Once Bill Barnell and George Wright and I, I forgot how we went, it wasn’t a bus, some car, going into the Chicari, over the mountains into the east. We went as far as the road went, I forget the name of the place, but we got on a boat, and went three days on the boat going down the river, a tributary of the Amazon, the Mamoré or something like that, all the way to Trinidad and then we stayed in Trinidad a couple days and flew home.

[Assistant] So how did you like the trip?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Once Bill Barnell and George Wright and I, I forgot how we went, it wasn’t a bus, some car, going into the Chicari, over the mountains into the east. We went as far as the road went, I forget the name of the place, but we got on a boat, and went three days on the boat going down the river, a tributary of the Amazon, the Mamoré or something like that, all the way to Trinidad and then we stayed in Trinidad a couple days and flew home.

[Assistant] So how did you like the trip?

[User] Oh, yes. That was quite an adventure.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In eastern Bolivia just a generation or so ago the people were headhunters and just lived like primitive man.

[Assistant] So anything else you can think of about your travels and tribulations around Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. That was quite an adventure.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In eastern Bolivia just a generation or so ago the people were headhunters and just lived like primitive man.

[Assistant] So anything else you can think of about your travels and tribulations around Bolivia?

[User] We got to know a number of the Methodist missionaries there, especially around Santa Cruz. They were down that way. What was this name of the school at Montero?

[Assistant] I think it was a Methodist school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In eastern Bolivia just a generation or so ago the people were headhunters and just lived like primitive man.

[Assistant] So anything else you can think of about your travels and tribulations around Bolivia?

[User] We got to know a number of the Methodist missionaries there, especially around Santa Cruz. They were down that way. What was this name of the school at Montero?

[Assistant] I think it was a Methodist school.

[User] I don't know. But anyway, I got to know some of those people. And I was we went back in ‘66 and we're with George Wright. We stayed with some of them in Cochabamba and in Montero.

[Assistant] So do you have any last thoughts about the Peace Corps and its effect?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got to know a number of the Methodist missionaries there, especially around Santa Cruz. They were down that way. What was this name of the school at Montero?

[Assistant] I think it was a Methodist school.

[User] I don't know. But anyway, I got to know some of those people. And I was we went back in ‘66 and we're with George Wright. We stayed with some of them in Cochabamba and in Montero.

[Assistant] So do you have any last thoughts about the Peace Corps and its effect?

[User] When it was a great experience for me. Almost 50 years later, we're still getting together. Numerous people have been able to stay with us in our community, in Auston and in ‘96 and in Spartanburg. And then we've stayed with various ones around over the country when we travel around.

[Assistant] So there was a certain amount of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. But anyway, I got to know some of those people. And I was we went back in ‘66 and we're with George Wright. We stayed with some of them in Cochabamba and in Montero.

[Assistant] So do you have any last thoughts about the Peace Corps and its effect?

[User] When it was a great experience for me. Almost 50 years later, we're still getting together. Numerous people have been able to stay with us in our community, in Auston and in ‘96 and in Spartanburg. And then we've stayed with various ones around over the country when we travel around.

[Assistant] So there was a certain amount of.

[User] Camaraderie. Somebody in the Peace Corps came down to evaluate us. And said he liked our group, there was kind of a esprit de corps about the Bolivia II group that you didn't find in other groups.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When it was a great experience for me. Almost 50 years later, we're still getting together. Numerous people have been able to stay with us in our community, in Auston and in ‘96 and in Spartanburg. And then we've stayed with various ones around over the country when we travel around.

[Assistant] So there was a certain amount of.

[User] Camaraderie. Somebody in the Peace Corps came down to evaluate us. And said he liked our group, there was kind of a esprit de corps about the Bolivia II group that you didn't find in other groups.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was?

[User] Maybe because we'd had an extended training period. Remember in Puerto Rico they extended us because we didn't know enough Spanish and we spent another week on the beach learning Spanish, then we went to Vermont and all that. It was November before we finally got to Bolivia. That was a good experience.

[Assistant] Ok, well, thank you, Paul. I think that probably takes care of this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So if you want to talk about how you got pulled back into Constellation and then that progression of your responsibilities.

[User] Sure. I had heard about Constellation. The ESAS [Exploration Systems Architecture Study] Report was going on and we were supporting that to a certain extent insofar as contributing dollars. The new Constellation Program was standing up and it required a significant amount of funding. Actually NASA was descoping a lot of its R&D [Research and Development] programs to cover it. At that point I was in the donation organization who was relooking at all of our content and prioritizing it so that dollars that had been allocated for applied research could be freed up for Constellation.\n\n Mark [S.] Geyer, he was Deputy Program Manager for Constellation, called me and asked me to come over to support Constellation in the Test and Verification Office [T&V] at the time. I had worked with Mark on Space Station before, and he actually worked for me at that time. Now I was working for him. I guess you never know who you’re going to work for here at NASA. Sometimes they work for you and later you work for them. Just make sure you don’t get people mad at you.\n\n I came over to Constellation and worked there for about two years in the Test and Verification Office. Ultimately it merged with the SE&I [Systems Engineering and Integration] Office, so I moved and became the Deputy for that combined office where Chris Hardcastle was the lead of that. I don’t know how much more of Constellation you want to talk about here.

[Assistant] We can talk about it. But I wanted to ask you. In between that time though I believe is when you were at [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] for a few months. You were working the Human Architecture Team? When was that?

[User] That was after I moved to Orion.

[Assistant] We can talk about that in a few minutes then. But yes, talk more about Constellation and what you were doing before that was canceled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are future decisions that are going to be hard. We are resource-constrained. We have a schedule urgency to get this thing built on time, and we have technical issues and hurdles ahead of us. There will constantly be trades moving ahead where we try to balance all those various factors and come up with the best path forward. Those decisions happen quite regularly now, and the decisions seem to be getting harder and harder and harder. Once you get closer and closer to launch, those decisions become more and more meaningful and more and more difficult. I’m just looking forward to the ride ahead because we’re going to have our hands full pulling this off.

[Assistant] Mark Geyer has said that the Orion Program learned to persevere. Do you agree with that statement?

[User] Yes. Absolutely. Having the team go through a trial by fire together, being canceled, the hard work and effort to fly a successful flight test, that is a bond that gets the team—it’s like maybe a platoon that’s gone through a couple of battles together becomes much more effective as a team by that common shared experience and overcoming difficulties. I think that’s where the Orion team is today. We’ve overcome difficulties successfully together as a team. That’s why I feel much more confident going forward because of that demonstrated teamwork.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you want to mention?

[User] I think we talked about more than I even thought we’d talk about.

[Assistant] Okay. If there’s not anything else, then I certainly appreciate you talking to us. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. What was I doing, you know? I graduated from the University of Texas in Austin. My wife and I were married in November ‘64. I graduated in May of ‘65.

[Assistant] Okay. What was your subject?

[User] It was finance with interest on real estate.

[Assistant] And at that point, what was your career goal? Did you have one?

[User]
Yes, I planned to get into real estate. I'd interned with a real estate commercial plan in Houston, Texas, on and off the various summers during college. KLEIN; Where had you grown up?

In Beaumont, Texas, which is east.

[Assistant] During high school years, did you travel, any extracurricular activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was finance with interest on real estate.

[Assistant] And at that point, what was your career goal? Did you have one?

[User]
Yes, I planned to get into real estate. I'd interned with a real estate commercial plan in Houston, Texas, on and off the various summers during college. KLEIN; Where had you grown up?

In Beaumont, Texas, which is east.

[Assistant] During high school years, did you travel, any extracurricular activities?

[User] No, not that much.

[Assistant] And you went in from Beaumont to Austin. During your college years, again, any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, I planned to get into real estate. I'd interned with a real estate commercial plan in Houston, Texas, on and off the various summers during college. KLEIN; Where had you grown up?

In Beaumont, Texas, which is east.

[Assistant] During high school years, did you travel, any extracurricular activities?

[User] No, not that much.

[Assistant] And you went in from Beaumont to Austin. During your college years, again, any travel?

[User] No, nothing extraordinary.

[Assistant] Had you learned a second language or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not that much.

[Assistant] And you went in from Beaumont to Austin. During your college years, again, any travel?

[User] No, nothing extraordinary.

[Assistant] Had you learned a second language or not?

[User] Had not. My wife had traveled quite a bit, right, but I did not. After graduation, we went with this firm in Houston to return to get started.

[Assistant] Were you both working at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, nothing extraordinary.

[Assistant] Had you learned a second language or not?

[User] Had not. My wife had traveled quite a bit, right, but I did not. After graduation, we went with this firm in Houston to return to get started.

[Assistant] Were you both working at that point?

[User] She was. She'd been working while I was in college. When got Houston, I just started out on a commission basis, which was not a wise decision for a greenhorn. And so I began supplementing work with newspaper wrap, which was not a strong supplementary secondary form of employment, but right, anyway, the career in real estate was the real life question anyway. But I was able to close a few commercial leases that it was difficult to make ends meet.

[Assistant] Now during your college years, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Had not. My wife had traveled quite a bit, right, but I did not. After graduation, we went with this firm in Houston to return to get started.

[Assistant] Were you both working at that point?

[User] She was. She'd been working while I was in college. When got Houston, I just started out on a commission basis, which was not a wise decision for a greenhorn. And so I began supplementing work with newspaper wrap, which was not a strong supplementary secondary form of employment, but right, anyway, the career in real estate was the real life question anyway. But I was able to close a few commercial leases that it was difficult to make ends meet.

[Assistant] Now during your college years, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?

[User] No, other than I had heard of it. But no, I didn't follow it closely.

[Assistant] Ok. But you knew it existed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was. She'd been working while I was in college. When got Houston, I just started out on a commission basis, which was not a wise decision for a greenhorn. And so I began supplementing work with newspaper wrap, which was not a strong supplementary secondary form of employment, but right, anyway, the career in real estate was the real life question anyway. But I was able to close a few commercial leases that it was difficult to make ends meet.

[Assistant] Now during your college years, do you recall when you first heard of the Peace Corps?

[User] No, other than I had heard of it. But no, I didn't follow it closely.

[Assistant] Ok. But you knew it existed.

[User] Oh, yes, sure. Yeah, it was definitely an attractive exciting adventure.

[Assistant] Even though you hadn't done much travel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, other than I had heard of it. But no, I didn't follow it closely.

[Assistant] Ok. But you knew it existed.

[User] Oh, yes, sure. Yeah, it was definitely an attractive exciting adventure.

[Assistant] Even though you hadn't done much travel.

[User] No, no. That's right. And maybe, maybe because I had not done a lot of travel. I don't know.

[Assistant] Let’s see, ’65, ’66. The draft wasn't a concern.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, sure. Yeah, it was definitely an attractive exciting adventure.

[Assistant] Even though you hadn't done much travel.

[User] No, no. That's right. And maybe, maybe because I had not done a lot of travel. I don't know.

[Assistant] Let’s see, ’65, ’66. The draft wasn't a concern.

[User] The draft was a concern. In fact, that was that was a strong motivation. My wife was enthused about this whole idea, but in all honesty, that precipitated serious consideration of my alternatives because I was not an enthusiastic supporter of our involvement in Vietnam. And if drafted, I would have gone. I wasn't going to object, I just objected to our involvement in it. So I wanted an alternative. The Peace Corps seemed like an exciting alternative for the two of us. And as it ended up, I don't know what it was, but our draft board or maybe all universal condition with all of the draft boards, was that you could still be drafted out of the Peace Corps. But so we decided as it increasingly became evident that I could be drafted, we’d small steps and some other pursuit, and that's when the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is ’65 or ’66?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. That's right. And maybe, maybe because I had not done a lot of travel. I don't know.

[Assistant] Let’s see, ’65, ’66. The draft wasn't a concern.

[User] The draft was a concern. In fact, that was that was a strong motivation. My wife was enthused about this whole idea, but in all honesty, that precipitated serious consideration of my alternatives because I was not an enthusiastic supporter of our involvement in Vietnam. And if drafted, I would have gone. I wasn't going to object, I just objected to our involvement in it. So I wanted an alternative. The Peace Corps seemed like an exciting alternative for the two of us. And as it ended up, I don't know what it was, but our draft board or maybe all universal condition with all of the draft boards, was that you could still be drafted out of the Peace Corps. But so we decided as it increasingly became evident that I could be drafted, we’d small steps and some other pursuit, and that's when the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is ’65 or ’66?

[User] 1966. Well, it may have been late ’65. I mean, obviously as the war right worsened as the draft increased.

[Assistant] And do you recall the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The draft was a concern. In fact, that was that was a strong motivation. My wife was enthused about this whole idea, but in all honesty, that precipitated serious consideration of my alternatives because I was not an enthusiastic supporter of our involvement in Vietnam. And if drafted, I would have gone. I wasn't going to object, I just objected to our involvement in it. So I wanted an alternative. The Peace Corps seemed like an exciting alternative for the two of us. And as it ended up, I don't know what it was, but our draft board or maybe all universal condition with all of the draft boards, was that you could still be drafted out of the Peace Corps. But so we decided as it increasingly became evident that I could be drafted, we’d small steps and some other pursuit, and that's when the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is ’65 or ’66?

[User] 1966. Well, it may have been late ’65. I mean, obviously as the war right worsened as the draft increased.

[Assistant] And do you recall the application process?

[User] Somewhat.

[Assistant] Well, a couple of things. One is you're asked whether you are familiar with a foreign language. And I guess that applies to both you and your wife or either of you. Do you recall, if you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1966. Well, it may have been late ’65. I mean, obviously as the war right worsened as the draft increased.

[Assistant] And do you recall the application process?

[User] Somewhat.

[Assistant] Well, a couple of things. One is you're asked whether you are familiar with a foreign language. And I guess that applies to both you and your wife or either of you. Do you recall, if you know?

[User] I mean, we had some broken familiarity with Spanish because we live in Texas. But no, I would not say that we would have a strong second language. And my wife had some study in French, maybe. That was not, it wasn't a speaking level knowledge, but if she had had some foreign language.

[Assistant] Did your wife have a college degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somewhat.

[Assistant] Well, a couple of things. One is you're asked whether you are familiar with a foreign language. And I guess that applies to both you and your wife or either of you. Do you recall, if you know?

[User] I mean, we had some broken familiarity with Spanish because we live in Texas. But no, I would not say that we would have a strong second language. And my wife had some study in French, maybe. That was not, it wasn't a speaking level knowledge, but if she had had some foreign language.

[Assistant] Did your wife have a college degree?

[User] She did, in English and philosophy.

[Assistant] One of the other things in the application is you can indicate a preference, sometimes the type of project or area. Do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, we had some broken familiarity with Spanish because we live in Texas. But no, I would not say that we would have a strong second language. And my wife had some study in French, maybe. That was not, it wasn't a speaking level knowledge, but if she had had some foreign language.

[Assistant] Did your wife have a college degree?

[User] She did, in English and philosophy.

[Assistant] One of the other things in the application is you can indicate a preference, sometimes the type of project or area. Do you recall?

[User] Yeah, I think we thought India would be neat. You see, we got pretty close.

[Assistant] And in talking about joining the Peace Corps, what was the reaction of your peers, your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She did, in English and philosophy.

[Assistant] One of the other things in the application is you can indicate a preference, sometimes the type of project or area. Do you recall?

[User] Yeah, I think we thought India would be neat. You see, we got pretty close.

[Assistant] And in talking about joining the Peace Corps, what was the reaction of your peers, your family?

[User] Oh, well, I think they were somewhat dismayed, but I think everyone was dismayed at the volatility of the times. Exactly. Particularly for draft age guys, kids, whatever.

[Assistant] And many people accepted it as a reasonable alternative to going to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we thought India would be neat. You see, we got pretty close.

[Assistant] And in talking about joining the Peace Corps, what was the reaction of your peers, your family?

[User] Oh, well, I think they were somewhat dismayed, but I think everyone was dismayed at the volatility of the times. Exactly. Particularly for draft age guys, kids, whatever.

[Assistant] And many people accepted it as a reasonable alternative to going to.

[User] Well, somewhat. Yes, I think some of our friends may have thought it was kind of a wild haired. But everybody was kind of troubled by the pressures of the draft and some involvement with service. I'm sure, as I recall, seeing a lot of people raised eyebrows, but then, you know, the alternatives were not very acceptable either. But it was not, it wasn't as though a lot of people suggested that option to us or suggested, as you know, a form of service either. That was not something familiar with a lot of our peers or friends.

[Assistant] So you filled out the application. Both you and your wife, you were both pretty much committed to going if you were accepted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, I think they were somewhat dismayed, but I think everyone was dismayed at the volatility of the times. Exactly. Particularly for draft age guys, kids, whatever.

[Assistant] And many people accepted it as a reasonable alternative to going to.

[User] Well, somewhat. Yes, I think some of our friends may have thought it was kind of a wild haired. But everybody was kind of troubled by the pressures of the draft and some involvement with service. I'm sure, as I recall, seeing a lot of people raised eyebrows, but then, you know, the alternatives were not very acceptable either. But it was not, it wasn't as though a lot of people suggested that option to us or suggested, as you know, a form of service either. That was not something familiar with a lot of our peers or friends.

[Assistant] So you filled out the application. Both you and your wife, you were both pretty much committed to going if you were accepted.

[User] We were. We were fully aware that this might not pan out and then I could be drafted. And if so, then I would follow the route of being drafted into the service. So that certainly was, it was not clear that the Peace Corps would be acceptable and that they would accept us or that we would, you know, finish the training program. But we made it, so.

[Assistant] So do you recall what happened after the application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, somewhat. Yes, I think some of our friends may have thought it was kind of a wild haired. But everybody was kind of troubled by the pressures of the draft and some involvement with service. I'm sure, as I recall, seeing a lot of people raised eyebrows, but then, you know, the alternatives were not very acceptable either. But it was not, it wasn't as though a lot of people suggested that option to us or suggested, as you know, a form of service either. That was not something familiar with a lot of our peers or friends.

[Assistant] So you filled out the application. Both you and your wife, you were both pretty much committed to going if you were accepted.

[User] We were. We were fully aware that this might not pan out and then I could be drafted. And if so, then I would follow the route of being drafted into the service. So that certainly was, it was not clear that the Peace Corps would be acceptable and that they would accept us or that we would, you know, finish the training program. But we made it, so.

[Assistant] So do you recall what happened after the application?

[User] No, I don't. Other than I heard subsequently, you know, there was a lot of background interviews and FBI. Yeah, and that was intriguing. Actually I was glad to know that they did a thorough background check. So, no, I don't recall much more of the process.

[Assistant] And what, did you finally get a phone call or telegram a letter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were. We were fully aware that this might not pan out and then I could be drafted. And if so, then I would follow the route of being drafted into the service. So that certainly was, it was not clear that the Peace Corps would be acceptable and that they would accept us or that we would, you know, finish the training program. But we made it, so.

[Assistant] So do you recall what happened after the application?

[User] No, I don't. Other than I heard subsequently, you know, there was a lot of background interviews and FBI. Yeah, and that was intriguing. Actually I was glad to know that they did a thorough background check. So, no, I don't recall much more of the process.

[Assistant] And what, did you finally get a phone call or telegram a letter?

[User] I don't recall. It must've been a letter. I would think it would be a letter.

[Assistant] What did you become aware of your assignment and what was going to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't. Other than I heard subsequently, you know, there was a lot of background interviews and FBI. Yeah, and that was intriguing. Actually I was glad to know that they did a thorough background check. So, no, I don't recall much more of the process.

[Assistant] And what, did you finally get a phone call or telegram a letter?

[User] I don't recall. It must've been a letter. I would think it would be a letter.

[Assistant] What did you become aware of your assignment and what was going to be?

[User] Well, I think first of all, I knew you didn't spell India B-R-A-Z-I-L. So I knew right away that our first option didn't get through, and I don't recall if our second option was a Latin American country or not.

[Assistant] But you did get an invitation here to go to Brazil.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall. It must've been a letter. I would think it would be a letter.

[Assistant] What did you become aware of your assignment and what was going to be?

[User] Well, I think first of all, I knew you didn't spell India B-R-A-Z-I-L. So I knew right away that our first option didn't get through, and I don't recall if our second option was a Latin American country or not.

[Assistant] But you did get an invitation here to go to Brazil.

[User] That's true, and I think it may have said community development. I had no earthly idea what all that meant, but what was specific and in fact, it wasn't specific.

[Assistant] But at that point, was it the assumption that both you and your wife were going to be volunteers, had volunteer roles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think first of all, I knew you didn't spell India B-R-A-Z-I-L. So I knew right away that our first option didn't get through, and I don't recall if our second option was a Latin American country or not.

[Assistant] But you did get an invitation here to go to Brazil.

[User] That's true, and I think it may have said community development. I had no earthly idea what all that meant, but what was specific and in fact, it wasn't specific.

[Assistant] But at that point, was it the assumption that both you and your wife were going to be volunteers, had volunteer roles?

[User] That's true. That's the way we applied now, you know, had they accepted only one and not the other? I don't know what we’d do about that. But that's the way we applied, and I think there was another adjunct to that to the job. And maybe that was also educational or secondary education working with, working with teachers. That was part of the program as well.

[Assistant] Ok, so. You applied for a deferment, and I guess you got your board to indicate that would receive it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true, and I think it may have said community development. I had no earthly idea what all that meant, but what was specific and in fact, it wasn't specific.

[Assistant] But at that point, was it the assumption that both you and your wife were going to be volunteers, had volunteer roles?

[User] That's true. That's the way we applied now, you know, had they accepted only one and not the other? I don't know what we’d do about that. But that's the way we applied, and I think there was another adjunct to that to the job. And maybe that was also educational or secondary education working with, working with teachers. That was part of the program as well.

[Assistant] Ok, so. You applied for a deferment, and I guess you got your board to indicate that would receive it.

[User] I suppose so.

[Assistant] Okay. Where did you go? Where were you assigned to go for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. That's the way we applied now, you know, had they accepted only one and not the other? I don't know what we’d do about that. But that's the way we applied, and I think there was another adjunct to that to the job. And maybe that was also educational or secondary education working with, working with teachers. That was part of the program as well.

[Assistant] Ok, so. You applied for a deferment, and I guess you got your board to indicate that would receive it.

[User] I suppose so.

[Assistant] Okay. Where did you go? Where were you assigned to go for training?

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] At the Experiment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose so.

[Assistant] Okay. Where did you go? Where were you assigned to go for training?

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] At the Experiment?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Experiment in International Living.

[Assistant] And in going up to Vermont, then you think the next stop would be Brazil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] At the Experiment?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Experiment in International Living.

[Assistant] And in going up to Vermont, then you think the next stop would be Brazil?

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] And so you recall the farewell when you're leaving Texas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Experiment in International Living.

[Assistant] And in going up to Vermont, then you think the next stop would be Brazil?

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] And so you recall the farewell when you're leaving Texas?

[User] Yeah, I remember packing up our goods and leaving the cute little duplex that we had rented. We were kind of beginning our own nesting, you know? And everything was just great. And we found that disruptive, but we found it exciting too.

[Assistant] And your wife's family was OK with it also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] And so you recall the farewell when you're leaving Texas?

[User] Yeah, I remember packing up our goods and leaving the cute little duplex that we had rented. We were kind of beginning our own nesting, you know? And everything was just great. And we found that disruptive, but we found it exciting too.

[Assistant] And your wife's family was OK with it also?

[User] You know, if they weren't, they didn't rattle the cage. And I guess I should say I appreciated that. We didn't feel as though we had many options. As I remember, they were pretty supportive and I think I remember my first two, I think there was there was a risk. It probably admiration and support by all the parents.

[Assistant] Yeah, certainly in those days, Peace Corps had a fairly good reputation. It was an honorable thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I remember packing up our goods and leaving the cute little duplex that we had rented. We were kind of beginning our own nesting, you know? And everything was just great. And we found that disruptive, but we found it exciting too.

[Assistant] And your wife's family was OK with it also?

[User] You know, if they weren't, they didn't rattle the cage. And I guess I should say I appreciated that. We didn't feel as though we had many options. As I remember, they were pretty supportive and I think I remember my first two, I think there was there was a risk. It probably admiration and support by all the parents.

[Assistant] Yeah, certainly in those days, Peace Corps had a fairly good reputation. It was an honorable thing to do.

[User] Exactly. And I think people used that. I don't think I don't remember any negative responses from, you know, overt or subtle.

[Assistant] So you reported up to Brattleboro. Was that your first time on the jets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, if they weren't, they didn't rattle the cage. And I guess I should say I appreciated that. We didn't feel as though we had many options. As I remember, they were pretty supportive and I think I remember my first two, I think there was there was a risk. It probably admiration and support by all the parents.

[Assistant] Yeah, certainly in those days, Peace Corps had a fairly good reputation. It was an honorable thing to do.

[User] Exactly. And I think people used that. I don't think I don't remember any negative responses from, you know, overt or subtle.

[Assistant] So you reported up to Brattleboro. Was that your first time on the jets?

[User] Oh no, no. But I was not a worldly traveler either. But no, that wasn't the first time I flew. That was a new experience for myself, and in the springtime cold Vermont weather and coming from sunny Texas. I mean, it's cold in the wintertime, is it not like it is here in the spring.

[Assistant] So what time of year do you start training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And I think people used that. I don't think I don't remember any negative responses from, you know, overt or subtle.

[Assistant] So you reported up to Brattleboro. Was that your first time on the jets?

[User] Oh no, no. But I was not a worldly traveler either. But no, that wasn't the first time I flew. That was a new experience for myself, and in the springtime cold Vermont weather and coming from sunny Texas. I mean, it's cold in the wintertime, is it not like it is here in the spring.

[Assistant] So what time of year do you start training?

[User] Oh, I think it was around April.

[Assistant] It was in the spring.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, no. But I was not a worldly traveler either. But no, that wasn't the first time I flew. That was a new experience for myself, and in the springtime cold Vermont weather and coming from sunny Texas. I mean, it's cold in the wintertime, is it not like it is here in the spring.

[Assistant] So what time of year do you start training?

[User] Oh, I think it was around April.

[Assistant] It was in the spring.

[User] Maybe March, could have been March.

[Assistant] And do you recall reporting? And now you're in the middle of a group of others who've joined the team. You recall your initial impression of the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think it was around April.

[Assistant] It was in the spring.

[User] Maybe March, could have been March.

[Assistant] And do you recall reporting? And now you're in the middle of a group of others who've joined the team. You recall your initial impression of the group.

[User] Sure. Yeah, I do. Well, motley kind of a crew. We were all, you know, kind of starry eyed and wondering what it was about, but full of a lot of piss and vinegar and was eager to prove ourselves and do something you know.

[Assistant] How many in the group do you recall approximately? On the order of 50 or 100?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe March, could have been March.

[Assistant] And do you recall reporting? And now you're in the middle of a group of others who've joined the team. You recall your initial impression of the group.

[User] Sure. Yeah, I do. Well, motley kind of a crew. We were all, you know, kind of starry eyed and wondering what it was about, but full of a lot of piss and vinegar and was eager to prove ourselves and do something you know.

[Assistant] How many in the group do you recall approximately? On the order of 50 or 100?

[User] I think between 50 and. I really don't recall because I know a lot were deselected and didn't make it.

[Assistant] And were there other married couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yeah, I do. Well, motley kind of a crew. We were all, you know, kind of starry eyed and wondering what it was about, but full of a lot of piss and vinegar and was eager to prove ourselves and do something you know.

[Assistant] How many in the group do you recall approximately? On the order of 50 or 100?

[User] I think between 50 and. I really don't recall because I know a lot were deselected and didn't make it.

[Assistant] And were there other married couples?

[User] Yes, they were.

[Assistant] And the group was generally coed. It wasn't married couples plus men and married couples plus women.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think between 50 and. I really don't recall because I know a lot were deselected and didn't make it.

[Assistant] And were there other married couples?

[User] Yes, they were.

[Assistant] And the group was generally coed. It wasn't married couples plus men and married couples plus women.

[User] No. No. Yes. That's correct.

[Assistant] Okay. And now let's talk about the training itself. Generally, the components are area studies. You learn about your technical studies, depending on where you're going to go, so there can be some level of language training. Let's talk about those elements in training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were.

[Assistant] And the group was generally coed. It wasn't married couples plus men and married couples plus women.

[User] No. No. Yes. That's correct.

[Assistant] Okay. And now let's talk about the training itself. Generally, the components are area studies. You learn about your technical studies, depending on where you're going to go, so there can be some level of language training. Let's talk about those elements in training.

[User] Sure. Well, I thought they had a good program. I fault myself on the language only because that was a struggle for me. As I thought, the technical side of the training was good.

[Assistant] What were they training in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. Yes. That's correct.

[Assistant] Okay. And now let's talk about the training itself. Generally, the components are area studies. You learn about your technical studies, depending on where you're going to go, so there can be some level of language training. Let's talk about those elements in training.

[User] Sure. Well, I thought they had a good program. I fault myself on the language only because that was a struggle for me. As I thought, the technical side of the training was good.

[Assistant] What were they training in?

[User] Any eventuality of any possible thing which was covered. It was difficult to train in everything.

[Assistant] So it's kind of generic area development.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Well, I thought they had a good program. I fault myself on the language only because that was a struggle for me. As I thought, the technical side of the training was good.

[Assistant] What were they training in?

[User] Any eventuality of any possible thing which was covered. It was difficult to train in everything.

[Assistant] So it's kind of generic area development.

[User] Well, the community development thing that was a, in fact, that was a criticism we had at the end of our service, that it was too generic for young kids to sometimes get their hands around. And yet I love flexibility, I love not being tied down, but there is such a lack of structure that it was frustrating when I was in training, but in reality in Peace Corps. What I what I think would have been better with would have been to have some structured activity that was required, but then to have some time to allow for flexibility such that if you envisioned a need in some area that's being unmet, that could be met and there would be a demand for it, then you could apply energies in that area to the country. But in the meantime, you would have there would be structure to your life too. That would give you some sense of, you know, anchor, that's what we didn't have. And that's what caused so much frustration throughout.

[Assistant] When do you recall any outstanding speakers or trainers at training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Any eventuality of any possible thing which was covered. It was difficult to train in everything.

[Assistant] So it's kind of generic area development.

[User] Well, the community development thing that was a, in fact, that was a criticism we had at the end of our service, that it was too generic for young kids to sometimes get their hands around. And yet I love flexibility, I love not being tied down, but there is such a lack of structure that it was frustrating when I was in training, but in reality in Peace Corps. What I what I think would have been better with would have been to have some structured activity that was required, but then to have some time to allow for flexibility such that if you envisioned a need in some area that's being unmet, that could be met and there would be a demand for it, then you could apply energies in that area to the country. But in the meantime, you would have there would be structure to your life too. That would give you some sense of, you know, anchor, that's what we didn't have. And that's what caused so much frustration throughout.

[Assistant] When do you recall any outstanding speakers or trainers at training?

[User] I remember a doctor that we had. He did seem to have a warm personality and did seem to relate to people very well.

[Assistant] And that was the medical training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the community development thing that was a, in fact, that was a criticism we had at the end of our service, that it was too generic for young kids to sometimes get their hands around. And yet I love flexibility, I love not being tied down, but there is such a lack of structure that it was frustrating when I was in training, but in reality in Peace Corps. What I what I think would have been better with would have been to have some structured activity that was required, but then to have some time to allow for flexibility such that if you envisioned a need in some area that's being unmet, that could be met and there would be a demand for it, then you could apply energies in that area to the country. But in the meantime, you would have there would be structure to your life too. That would give you some sense of, you know, anchor, that's what we didn't have. And that's what caused so much frustration throughout.

[Assistant] When do you recall any outstanding speakers or trainers at training?

[User] I remember a doctor that we had. He did seem to have a warm personality and did seem to relate to people very well.

[Assistant] And that was the medical training?

[User] That was in Brattleboro, Vermont. And he was from the area. I don't know where he was from the state of or not from other states in the northeast part, but really nice guy. Seems like Bob George may have been the head of training there, and I thought he was effective. In fact, I remember most of the staffers being effective and helpful.

[Assistant] How was the language organized, did you break into small groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember a doctor that we had. He did seem to have a warm personality and did seem to relate to people very well.

[Assistant] And that was the medical training?

[User] That was in Brattleboro, Vermont. And he was from the area. I don't know where he was from the state of or not from other states in the northeast part, but really nice guy. Seems like Bob George may have been the head of training there, and I thought he was effective. In fact, I remember most of the staffers being effective and helpful.

[Assistant] How was the language organized, did you break into small groups?

[User] I believe that's true.

[Assistant] Do you recall if you had any sense that if you didn't get up to a certain level in Portuguese that you weren't going to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in Brattleboro, Vermont. And he was from the area. I don't know where he was from the state of or not from other states in the northeast part, but really nice guy. Seems like Bob George may have been the head of training there, and I thought he was effective. In fact, I remember most of the staffers being effective and helpful.

[Assistant] How was the language organized, did you break into small groups?

[User] I believe that's true.

[Assistant] Do you recall if you had any sense that if you didn't get up to a certain level in Portuguese that you weren't going to go?

[User] I don't recall that. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be surprised that that might have been asked.

[Assistant] Were there any field studies, going out to study community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe that's true.

[Assistant] Do you recall if you had any sense that if you didn't get up to a certain level in Portuguese that you weren't going to go?

[User] I don't recall that. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be surprised that that might have been asked.

[Assistant] Were there any field studies, going out to study community?

[User] We did.

[Assistant] How was that organized?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall that. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be surprised that that might have been asked.

[Assistant] Were there any field studies, going out to study community?

[User] We did.

[Assistant] How was that organized?

[User] Well, they dropped you off in a little outlying towns. Now that, it was fine.

[Assistant] It was the two of you, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] How was that organized?

[User] Well, they dropped you off in a little outlying towns. Now that, it was fine.

[Assistant] It was the two of you, though.

[User] Definitely a challenge. And they’d give you like 25 dollars for the weekend or so. It's kind of interesting, but it required such an indulgence on the community for families that, you know, kids roaming around trying to do things. I think the objective is to understand that [inaudible], which were an acronym for, you know, movers and shakers of the community and what the community did. To take matters and cameras or something with acronyms for learning about the movers, shakers and what the community does or how it gets things done.

[Assistant] In two and a half days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they dropped you off in a little outlying towns. Now that, it was fine.

[Assistant] It was the two of you, though.

[User] Definitely a challenge. And they’d give you like 25 dollars for the weekend or so. It's kind of interesting, but it required such an indulgence on the community for families that, you know, kids roaming around trying to do things. I think the objective is to understand that [inaudible], which were an acronym for, you know, movers and shakers of the community and what the community did. To take matters and cameras or something with acronyms for learning about the movers, shakers and what the community does or how it gets things done.

[Assistant] In two and a half days.

[User] Yeah. Oh, by the way. Yeah. And by the way, figure out how to stretch $25 over a weekend.

[Assistant] And you had to find a place to stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely a challenge. And they’d give you like 25 dollars for the weekend or so. It's kind of interesting, but it required such an indulgence on the community for families that, you know, kids roaming around trying to do things. I think the objective is to understand that [inaudible], which were an acronym for, you know, movers and shakers of the community and what the community did. To take matters and cameras or something with acronyms for learning about the movers, shakers and what the community does or how it gets things done.

[Assistant] In two and a half days.

[User] Yeah. Oh, by the way. Yeah. And by the way, figure out how to stretch $25 over a weekend.

[Assistant] And you had to find a place to stay?

[User] And find a place to stay and eat. And so we ended up, I don't remember, barging in on a Congregationalist minister and his family in, I can't remember this town in Massachusetts. Oh, North Adams, Massachusetts. Nice, nice people. Took us in. Anyway, it was just it was surprising and we were chatting away. But they were nice to us. And so we went through the exercise and it was it was a mental training of just learning how to evaluate size up a situation and see what I could be use of what's needed and how it operates and how to effectively work with the people.

[Assistant] When you came back from that weekend, did you have a chance to process with the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, by the way. Yeah. And by the way, figure out how to stretch $25 over a weekend.

[Assistant] And you had to find a place to stay?

[User] And find a place to stay and eat. And so we ended up, I don't remember, barging in on a Congregationalist minister and his family in, I can't remember this town in Massachusetts. Oh, North Adams, Massachusetts. Nice, nice people. Took us in. Anyway, it was just it was surprising and we were chatting away. But they were nice to us. And so we went through the exercise and it was it was a mental training of just learning how to evaluate size up a situation and see what I could be use of what's needed and how it operates and how to effectively work with the people.

[Assistant] When you came back from that weekend, did you have a chance to process with the group?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And to share the experiences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And find a place to stay and eat. And so we ended up, I don't remember, barging in on a Congregationalist minister and his family in, I can't remember this town in Massachusetts. Oh, North Adams, Massachusetts. Nice, nice people. Took us in. Anyway, it was just it was surprising and we were chatting away. But they were nice to us. And so we went through the exercise and it was it was a mental training of just learning how to evaluate size up a situation and see what I could be use of what's needed and how it operates and how to effectively work with the people.

[Assistant] When you came back from that weekend, did you have a chance to process with the group?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And to share the experiences.

[User] Right, so that we'd learn how other people, what stumbling blocks they encountered or what successes they encountered.

[Assistant] So did anyone stand up and say, well, these skills are what you might be using when you get to Brazil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And to share the experiences.

[User] Right, so that we'd learn how other people, what stumbling blocks they encountered or what successes they encountered.

[Assistant] So did anyone stand up and say, well, these skills are what you might be using when you get to Brazil?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Was there anyone from any former volunteers or any Brazils staff members who provided training there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, so that we'd learn how other people, what stumbling blocks they encountered or what successes they encountered.

[Assistant] So did anyone stand up and say, well, these skills are what you might be using when you get to Brazil?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Was there anyone from any former volunteers or any Brazils staff members who provided training there?

[User] There some former volunteers in Brazil that had returned.

[Assistant] And how were they used in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Was there anyone from any former volunteers or any Brazils staff members who provided training there?

[User] There some former volunteers in Brazil that had returned.

[Assistant] And how were they used in training?

[User] Well, I guess more in the cultural side of training and trying to relate what to expect, how to cope with, you know, the challenges and the cultural differences and what life is like for a volunteer there. The do's and don'ts, to avoid pitfalls.

[Assistant] Was anyone saying that this is what you likely to be doing once you get to Brazil with any specificity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There some former volunteers in Brazil that had returned.

[Assistant] And how were they used in training?

[User] Well, I guess more in the cultural side of training and trying to relate what to expect, how to cope with, you know, the challenges and the cultural differences and what life is like for a volunteer there. The do's and don'ts, to avoid pitfalls.

[Assistant] Was anyone saying that this is what you likely to be doing once you get to Brazil with any specificity?

[User] Well, no, not specifically. But yeah, they did attempt to say, here are ideas of community development. Have a water project, maybe a sanitation project, maybe help with a garden.

[Assistant] And the implication was that whatever assignment you had, it would be the both of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess more in the cultural side of training and trying to relate what to expect, how to cope with, you know, the challenges and the cultural differences and what life is like for a volunteer there. The do's and don'ts, to avoid pitfalls.

[Assistant] Was anyone saying that this is what you likely to be doing once you get to Brazil with any specificity?

[User] Well, no, not specifically. But yeah, they did attempt to say, here are ideas of community development. Have a water project, maybe a sanitation project, maybe help with a garden.

[Assistant] And the implication was that whatever assignment you had, it would be the both of you.

[User] That's right. The community development is so flexible. [cough] I'm getting over a cold. Let me stop.

[Assistant] So you knew you'd be assigned with your wife. But it was open ended enough that she might end up teaching and you might end up digging latrines.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, not specifically. But yeah, they did attempt to say, here are ideas of community development. Have a water project, maybe a sanitation project, maybe help with a garden.

[Assistant] And the implication was that whatever assignment you had, it would be the both of you.

[User] That's right. The community development is so flexible. [cough] I'm getting over a cold. Let me stop.

[Assistant] So you knew you'd be assigned with your wife. But it was open ended enough that she might end up teaching and you might end up digging latrines.

[User] And that's exactly what happened. Because, you know, because of the kind of the. It's still culturally Victorian and men didn't work that well with women. Women work better with women, and most of the teachers are women. Therefore, I just wasn't able to develop the rapport that I thought was necessary to be effective with the women teachers.

[Assistant] And you knew you knew that going in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. The community development is so flexible. [cough] I'm getting over a cold. Let me stop.

[Assistant] So you knew you'd be assigned with your wife. But it was open ended enough that she might end up teaching and you might end up digging latrines.

[User] And that's exactly what happened. Because, you know, because of the kind of the. It's still culturally Victorian and men didn't work that well with women. Women work better with women, and most of the teachers are women. Therefore, I just wasn't able to develop the rapport that I thought was necessary to be effective with the women teachers.

[Assistant] And you knew you knew that going in.

[User] No, I didn't. I didn't know that. Maybe I should have picked up on it. Maybe they told me, but I didn't do it, too. I was surprised about it.

[Assistant] Two other things about training. The Experiment had been associated with the kind of Outward Bound type of training. And I gather that's where you, you know, jump tall buildings, go up cliffs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's exactly what happened. Because, you know, because of the kind of the. It's still culturally Victorian and men didn't work that well with women. Women work better with women, and most of the teachers are women. Therefore, I just wasn't able to develop the rapport that I thought was necessary to be effective with the women teachers.

[Assistant] And you knew you knew that going in.

[User] No, I didn't. I didn't know that. Maybe I should have picked up on it. Maybe they told me, but I didn't do it, too. I was surprised about it.

[Assistant] Two other things about training. The Experiment had been associated with the kind of Outward Bound type of training. And I gather that's where you, you know, jump tall buildings, go up cliffs.

[User] I guess so.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any. The other part of training is the selection process. And how did that play out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't. I didn't know that. Maybe I should have picked up on it. Maybe they told me, but I didn't do it, too. I was surprised about it.

[Assistant] Two other things about training. The Experiment had been associated with the kind of Outward Bound type of training. And I gather that's where you, you know, jump tall buildings, go up cliffs.

[User] I guess so.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any. The other part of training is the selection process. And how did that play out?

[User] Fine. I mean, as I recall, several psychologists, maybe psychiatrists, but I remember having various interviews. I thought that was fine. I was comfortable about it. Other people were not.

[Assistant] Together or separately?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess so.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any. The other part of training is the selection process. And how did that play out?

[User] Fine. I mean, as I recall, several psychologists, maybe psychiatrists, but I remember having various interviews. I thought that was fine. I was comfortable about it. Other people were not.

[Assistant] Together or separately?

[User] You know what, I think separately, but I would think that it would have been wise to interview us jointly as well. I don't know if they did that. I don't recall. I would guess that they may have been a good idea.

[Assistant] And then very often there's a lot of tension about selection, mid selection and then there's a final.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fine. I mean, as I recall, several psychologists, maybe psychiatrists, but I remember having various interviews. I thought that was fine. I was comfortable about it. Other people were not.

[Assistant] Together or separately?

[User] You know what, I think separately, but I would think that it would have been wise to interview us jointly as well. I don't know if they did that. I don't recall. I would guess that they may have been a good idea.

[Assistant] And then very often there's a lot of tension about selection, mid selection and then there's a final.

[User] There is. That's right. And I remember a lot of people. Some teeth gnashing over some of that and some disappointments, I think, in some who will be deselected.

[Assistant] Did the group coalesce at all in trying to oppose some of the deselectees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know what, I think separately, but I would think that it would have been wise to interview us jointly as well. I don't know if they did that. I don't recall. I would guess that they may have been a good idea.

[Assistant] And then very often there's a lot of tension about selection, mid selection and then there's a final.

[User] There is. That's right. And I remember a lot of people. Some teeth gnashing over some of that and some disappointments, I think, in some who will be deselected.

[Assistant] Did the group coalesce at all in trying to oppose some of the deselectees?

[User] Yes, a little bit. Sure. You do really build some strong bonds within a short, intense training time.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. So a final selection comes and the group has been pared down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There is. That's right. And I remember a lot of people. Some teeth gnashing over some of that and some disappointments, I think, in some who will be deselected.

[Assistant] Did the group coalesce at all in trying to oppose some of the deselectees?

[User] Yes, a little bit. Sure. You do really build some strong bonds within a short, intense training time.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. So a final selection comes and the group has been pared down.

[User] We actually, we had two different training areas. We trained in Brattleboro, Vermont, came home briefly, went back and trained for, let's say, two to three weeks in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And was this to be all field work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a little bit. Sure. You do really build some strong bonds within a short, intense training time.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. So a final selection comes and the group has been pared down.

[User] We actually, we had two different training areas. We trained in Brattleboro, Vermont, came home briefly, went back and trained for, let's say, two to three weeks in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And was this to be all field work?

[User] Yeah, sort of.

[Assistant] Did the whole group go there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We actually, we had two different training areas. We trained in Brattleboro, Vermont, came home briefly, went back and trained for, let's say, two to three weeks in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And was this to be all field work?

[User] Yeah, sort of.

[Assistant] Did the whole group go there?

[User] Yes, the whole group.

[Assistant] And how did you spend your time? Did language continue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, sort of.

[Assistant] Did the whole group go there?

[User] Yes, the whole group.

[Assistant] And how did you spend your time? Did language continue?

[User] Yes, language continued.

[Assistant] All of that. Is there a large Portuguese population in Scranton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the whole group.

[Assistant] And how did you spend your time? Did language continue?

[User] Yes, language continued.

[Assistant] All of that. Is there a large Portuguese population in Scranton?

[User] Not to my knowledge.

[Assistant] So what did you do? How would you spend your three weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, language continued.

[Assistant] All of that. Is there a large Portuguese population in Scranton?

[User] Not to my knowledge.

[Assistant] So what did you do? How would you spend your three weeks?

[User] Going to the local health department going with them out to see health conditions in the poor areas. I know they had that problems in the city. They want to show us how they were eradicating rats and I remember that. I remember the eternal coal mine fires that were burning all the time. I don't recall why they decided to make such a logistical right from Brattleboro to Scranton. Maybe it could have been something just as simple as they had another group coming back into Brattleboro, Vermont, and couldn't give us any more time. I never knew the reason. Maybe it was that Scranton had something that was vital for us to learn. Afraid I may have missed that.

[Assistant] So you get through the Scranton phase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not to my knowledge.

[Assistant] So what did you do? How would you spend your three weeks?

[User] Going to the local health department going with them out to see health conditions in the poor areas. I know they had that problems in the city. They want to show us how they were eradicating rats and I remember that. I remember the eternal coal mine fires that were burning all the time. I don't recall why they decided to make such a logistical right from Brattleboro to Scranton. Maybe it could have been something just as simple as they had another group coming back into Brattleboro, Vermont, and couldn't give us any more time. I never knew the reason. Maybe it was that Scranton had something that was vital for us to learn. Afraid I may have missed that.

[Assistant] So you get through the Scranton phase.

[User] Come home, wrap up things.

[Assistant] No second thoughts on your little bit of home leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Going to the local health department going with them out to see health conditions in the poor areas. I know they had that problems in the city. They want to show us how they were eradicating rats and I remember that. I remember the eternal coal mine fires that were burning all the time. I don't recall why they decided to make such a logistical right from Brattleboro to Scranton. Maybe it could have been something just as simple as they had another group coming back into Brattleboro, Vermont, and couldn't give us any more time. I never knew the reason. Maybe it was that Scranton had something that was vital for us to learn. Afraid I may have missed that.

[Assistant] So you get through the Scranton phase.

[User] Come home, wrap up things.

[Assistant] No second thoughts on your little bit of home leave?

[User] No. In fact, we were pretty excited. We were really eager to go.

[Assistant] Had you developed any close friends within the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Come home, wrap up things.

[Assistant] No second thoughts on your little bit of home leave?

[User] No. In fact, we were pretty excited. We were really eager to go.

[Assistant] Had you developed any close friends within the group?

[User] We had developed friends. Yeah, well, I wouldn't say close enough yet. You know, we were still we were still trying to. We were enthused. But you know, still, there's trepidation.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. And you had no idea of where in Brazil you were going to be going. I mean, it's a huge country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. In fact, we were pretty excited. We were really eager to go.

[Assistant] Had you developed any close friends within the group?

[User] We had developed friends. Yeah, well, I wouldn't say close enough yet. You know, we were still we were still trying to. We were enthused. But you know, still, there's trepidation.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. And you had no idea of where in Brazil you were going to be going. I mean, it's a huge country.

[User] It is a huge country. Yeah. And it's like you're going to Canada or the U.S., India and China. That's a huge country. But we didn't get an inkling of where we were going right until we got into Rio, which is what we flew in. People began asking us for where we were going to be stationed. It's [inaudible]. Oh. And you knew there was more there was something that you thought they weren't listening when they talked in training. So we heard our book here now to find out more about the state of [inaudible]. It's just a poor country in the northeast part of Brazil. Beautiful area, but it's not a Rio or a Sao Paolo.

[Assistant] Was it coastal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had developed friends. Yeah, well, I wouldn't say close enough yet. You know, we were still we were still trying to. We were enthused. But you know, still, there's trepidation.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. And you had no idea of where in Brazil you were going to be going. I mean, it's a huge country.

[User] It is a huge country. Yeah. And it's like you're going to Canada or the U.S., India and China. That's a huge country. But we didn't get an inkling of where we were going right until we got into Rio, which is what we flew in. People began asking us for where we were going to be stationed. It's [inaudible]. Oh. And you knew there was more there was something that you thought they weren't listening when they talked in training. So we heard our book here now to find out more about the state of [inaudible]. It's just a poor country in the northeast part of Brazil. Beautiful area, but it's not a Rio or a Sao Paolo.

[Assistant] Was it coastal?

[User] Well, the state is coastal, and the city we were in was inland a ways.

[Assistant] Now when you got to Rio, did the group stay together very long?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is a huge country. Yeah. And it's like you're going to Canada or the U.S., India and China. That's a huge country. But we didn't get an inkling of where we were going right until we got into Rio, which is what we flew in. People began asking us for where we were going to be stationed. It's [inaudible]. Oh. And you knew there was more there was something that you thought they weren't listening when they talked in training. So we heard our book here now to find out more about the state of [inaudible]. It's just a poor country in the northeast part of Brazil. Beautiful area, but it's not a Rio or a Sao Paolo.

[Assistant] Was it coastal?

[User] Well, the state is coastal, and the city we were in was inland a ways.

[Assistant] Now when you got to Rio, did the group stay together very long?

[User] Well, I would guess for maybe a week, but it was orientation, Peace Corps kind of orientation.

[Assistant] And at any point did anyone ask you if you had a preference for where you were assigned or did you sense was that you going to go where they sent you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the state is coastal, and the city we were in was inland a ways.

[Assistant] Now when you got to Rio, did the group stay together very long?

[User] Well, I would guess for maybe a week, but it was orientation, Peace Corps kind of orientation.

[Assistant] And at any point did anyone ask you if you had a preference for where you were assigned or did you sense was that you going to go where they sent you?

[User] No, we were just going to go where they sent us. There were some there were some people that I think they were just a little more savvy than we were, who found out a little more information. And they began kind of, not politicking, but they decided to do a little promoting of maybe some areas that they thought might work better for them because of their expertise. And as it ended up, one of them did a pretty good job in order to get there. No, we were just going to go along.

[Assistant] But you might assume that Peace Corps saw a married couple as stable and more possibly better able to handle an isolated society.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would guess for maybe a week, but it was orientation, Peace Corps kind of orientation.

[Assistant] And at any point did anyone ask you if you had a preference for where you were assigned or did you sense was that you going to go where they sent you?

[User] No, we were just going to go where they sent us. There were some there were some people that I think they were just a little more savvy than we were, who found out a little more information. And they began kind of, not politicking, but they decided to do a little promoting of maybe some areas that they thought might work better for them because of their expertise. And as it ended up, one of them did a pretty good job in order to get there. No, we were just going to go along.

[Assistant] But you might assume that Peace Corps saw a married couple as stable and more possibly better able to handle an isolated society.

[User] Yeah, that's true. But that is true. And I assume they might have looked on it that way.

[Assistant] At what point did you begin dealing with Brazilians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were just going to go where they sent us. There were some there were some people that I think they were just a little more savvy than we were, who found out a little more information. And they began kind of, not politicking, but they decided to do a little promoting of maybe some areas that they thought might work better for them because of their expertise. And as it ended up, one of them did a pretty good job in order to get there. No, we were just going to go along.

[Assistant] But you might assume that Peace Corps saw a married couple as stable and more possibly better able to handle an isolated society.

[User] Yeah, that's true. But that is true. And I assume they might have looked on it that way.

[Assistant] At what point did you begin dealing with Brazilians?

[User] As soon as we, well, we left flew out of New York to Rio, and as I say, it was a brief orientation period, maybe up as long as a week. From there, we then flew out from there. In our case, you know, our group was primarily in the northeast part of Brazil in the states of Alagoas, Ceará. I don't remember all of the states.

[Assistant] So it was like a regional outpost.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's true. But that is true. And I assume they might have looked on it that way.

[Assistant] At what point did you begin dealing with Brazilians?

[User] As soon as we, well, we left flew out of New York to Rio, and as I say, it was a brief orientation period, maybe up as long as a week. From there, we then flew out from there. In our case, you know, our group was primarily in the northeast part of Brazil in the states of Alagoas, Ceará. I don't remember all of the states.

[Assistant] So it was like a regional outpost.

[User] We were in the northeast, part northeast, part Brazil is. Well, the whole country of South America is like that. Brazil is kind of like this much and the northeast is up here. Largest town is Recife in the state of Pernambuco. Alagoas is just a small state here and its capital is Maceió. Rio, Sao Paulo, Brasilia, Salvador. Some of the better exciting communities. But anyway, you fly in here and we just flew back up here.

[Assistant] Is the area tropical?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As soon as we, well, we left flew out of New York to Rio, and as I say, it was a brief orientation period, maybe up as long as a week. From there, we then flew out from there. In our case, you know, our group was primarily in the northeast part of Brazil in the states of Alagoas, Ceará. I don't remember all of the states.

[Assistant] So it was like a regional outpost.

[User] We were in the northeast, part northeast, part Brazil is. Well, the whole country of South America is like that. Brazil is kind of like this much and the northeast is up here. Largest town is Recife in the state of Pernambuco. Alagoas is just a small state here and its capital is Maceió. Rio, Sao Paulo, Brasilia, Salvador. Some of the better exciting communities. But anyway, you fly in here and we just flew back up here.

[Assistant] Is the area tropical?

[User] It is. Yeah. Sugarcane region.

[Assistant] So now you really you're getting down to it, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in the northeast, part northeast, part Brazil is. Well, the whole country of South America is like that. Brazil is kind of like this much and the northeast is up here. Largest town is Recife in the state of Pernambuco. Alagoas is just a small state here and its capital is Maceió. Rio, Sao Paulo, Brasilia, Salvador. Some of the better exciting communities. But anyway, you fly in here and we just flew back up here.

[Assistant] Is the area tropical?

[User] It is. Yeah. Sugarcane region.

[Assistant] So now you really you're getting down to it, I mean.

[User] So we come into Maceió and we have another orientation.

[Assistant] Now, who's running it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. Yeah. Sugarcane region.

[Assistant] So now you really you're getting down to it, I mean.

[User] So we come into Maceió and we have another orientation.

[Assistant] Now, who's running it?

[User]
The Peace Corps. And they designed an orientation for, first of all, in the city of Maceió just to get people from the host country again, kind of learning relating with the Brazilians. But they're in a controlled environment with all your buddies are still now. Not totally, you know, out of wack, but their orientation is within the city of the capital of Maceió.

At this point, then they designed an orientation program where all of volunteers would go out and visit other in-country volunteers at their homes. You know, and in fact, it may be a group that split up a group of five or 10 go to one small little town, learn what that volunteer has been working on. Meet the people he works with. Just get a taste of daily life they live through, and then you rotate. From there, then go to see another volunteer. People there went back here and kind of rode around. So you get a nice smattering of experience from other people in the field. That was smart and helpful.

[Assistant] But was anyone saying, you know, in which setting you feel more comfortable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we come into Maceió and we have another orientation.

[Assistant] Now, who's running it?

[User]
The Peace Corps. And they designed an orientation for, first of all, in the city of Maceió just to get people from the host country again, kind of learning relating with the Brazilians. But they're in a controlled environment with all your buddies are still now. Not totally, you know, out of wack, but their orientation is within the city of the capital of Maceió.

At this point, then they designed an orientation program where all of volunteers would go out and visit other in-country volunteers at their homes. You know, and in fact, it may be a group that split up a group of five or 10 go to one small little town, learn what that volunteer has been working on. Meet the people he works with. Just get a taste of daily life they live through, and then you rotate. From there, then go to see another volunteer. People there went back here and kind of rode around. So you get a nice smattering of experience from other people in the field. That was smart and helpful.

[Assistant] But was anyone saying, you know, in which setting you feel more comfortable?

[User] No, I'm not following.

[Assistant] Well, if you've seen four or five different sites, were they trying to get some impression from you where you might fit in? What kind of situation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
The Peace Corps. And they designed an orientation for, first of all, in the city of Maceió just to get people from the host country again, kind of learning relating with the Brazilians. But they're in a controlled environment with all your buddies are still now. Not totally, you know, out of wack, but their orientation is within the city of the capital of Maceió.

At this point, then they designed an orientation program where all of volunteers would go out and visit other in-country volunteers at their homes. You know, and in fact, it may be a group that split up a group of five or 10 go to one small little town, learn what that volunteer has been working on. Meet the people he works with. Just get a taste of daily life they live through, and then you rotate. From there, then go to see another volunteer. People there went back here and kind of rode around. So you get a nice smattering of experience from other people in the field. That was smart and helpful.

[Assistant] But was anyone saying, you know, in which setting you feel more comfortable?

[User] No, I'm not following.

[Assistant] Well, if you've seen four or five different sites, were they trying to get some impression from you where you might fit in? What kind of situation?

[User] Probably, probably. But it wasn't explicit. No, probably community development still so all-encompassing so anything goes.

[Assistant] Did any of the existing volunteers you dealt with say, this is a disaster, you're wasting your time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm not following.

[Assistant] Well, if you've seen four or five different sites, were they trying to get some impression from you where you might fit in? What kind of situation?

[User] Probably, probably. But it wasn't explicit. No, probably community development still so all-encompassing so anything goes.

[Assistant] Did any of the existing volunteers you dealt with say, this is a disaster, you're wasting your time?

[User] Yeah, some of them, sure. I think all volunteers have gone through some of that, at least for these type programs, because it really taps the frustration of people. I don't know how you found your experience, but yours sounds very structured to me. There’s something new that needed to be done. And you could do it and feel you can feel some sense of satisfaction. What was expected of us was pretty nebulous. What resulted was pretty nebulous. The sense of satisfaction was illusive. So it was, that foments frustration, and we felt that from the people that had been in the field.

[Assistant] And so they articulated, they weren’t just being nice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably, probably. But it wasn't explicit. No, probably community development still so all-encompassing so anything goes.

[Assistant] Did any of the existing volunteers you dealt with say, this is a disaster, you're wasting your time?

[User] Yeah, some of them, sure. I think all volunteers have gone through some of that, at least for these type programs, because it really taps the frustration of people. I don't know how you found your experience, but yours sounds very structured to me. There’s something new that needed to be done. And you could do it and feel you can feel some sense of satisfaction. What was expected of us was pretty nebulous. What resulted was pretty nebulous. The sense of satisfaction was illusive. So it was, that foments frustration, and we felt that from the people that had been in the field.

[Assistant] And so they articulated, they weren’t just being nice?

[User] They weren't necessarily saying it's because of the way the program was. But add to that just the idealistic desire of accomplishing something and realizing you can’t accomplish what you were supposed to.

[Assistant] Well, no one turned to the Peace Corps staff and said, you brought me all these thousands of miles just to do this? I mean, doesn't the Peace Corps staff have some obligation to structure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, some of them, sure. I think all volunteers have gone through some of that, at least for these type programs, because it really taps the frustration of people. I don't know how you found your experience, but yours sounds very structured to me. There’s something new that needed to be done. And you could do it and feel you can feel some sense of satisfaction. What was expected of us was pretty nebulous. What resulted was pretty nebulous. The sense of satisfaction was illusive. So it was, that foments frustration, and we felt that from the people that had been in the field.

[Assistant] And so they articulated, they weren’t just being nice?

[User] They weren't necessarily saying it's because of the way the program was. But add to that just the idealistic desire of accomplishing something and realizing you can’t accomplish what you were supposed to.

[Assistant] Well, no one turned to the Peace Corps staff and said, you brought me all these thousands of miles just to do this? I mean, doesn't the Peace Corps staff have some obligation to structure?

[User] Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that frustration was taken out on staff. I don't know if it’s taken out in those words, but definitely it was taken out on staff because everybody looks for a scapegoat.

[Assistant] Is there any point in these first couple of weeks when you and your wife said, oh my God, we're in Brazil on a mistake?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't necessarily saying it's because of the way the program was. But add to that just the idealistic desire of accomplishing something and realizing you can’t accomplish what you were supposed to.

[Assistant] Well, no one turned to the Peace Corps staff and said, you brought me all these thousands of miles just to do this? I mean, doesn't the Peace Corps staff have some obligation to structure?

[User] Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that frustration was taken out on staff. I don't know if it’s taken out in those words, but definitely it was taken out on staff because everybody looks for a scapegoat.

[Assistant] Is there any point in these first couple of weeks when you and your wife said, oh my God, we're in Brazil on a mistake?

[User] No, not. Well, that may be.

[Assistant] But did you? You must have had some hesitation at that point about what are we doing here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that frustration was taken out on staff. I don't know if it’s taken out in those words, but definitely it was taken out on staff because everybody looks for a scapegoat.

[Assistant] Is there any point in these first couple of weeks when you and your wife said, oh my God, we're in Brazil on a mistake?

[User] No, not. Well, that may be.

[Assistant] But did you? You must have had some hesitation at that point about what are we doing here?

[User] Sure. Yeah, we were wondering all the time. Did we make the right decision? Just like most of us, we are respected by the service. You know, although I don't think that that really was not something set in deeply with us. We felt we felt pretty good about this. We weren't comfortable with how things were working out because they weren't working out yet.

[Assistant] Ok, well, let's get you to this in-country training now finally comes to an end. And now you're going to be assigned as a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not. Well, that may be.

[Assistant] But did you? You must have had some hesitation at that point about what are we doing here?

[User] Sure. Yeah, we were wondering all the time. Did we make the right decision? Just like most of us, we are respected by the service. You know, although I don't think that that really was not something set in deeply with us. We felt we felt pretty good about this. We weren't comfortable with how things were working out because they weren't working out yet.

[Assistant] Ok, well, let's get you to this in-country training now finally comes to an end. And now you're going to be assigned as a volunteer.

[User] That's right. Now there were some input. We, you know, we talked about, what we might be more comfortable with. Some people were in little interior towns have had, you know, 100 people, some in towns that might have been 30,000 people. We ended up being placed on a town of, I would guess is 2,800, 3,000. That was just I was fine with us.

[Assistant] And were you the only volunteers there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yeah, we were wondering all the time. Did we make the right decision? Just like most of us, we are respected by the service. You know, although I don't think that that really was not something set in deeply with us. We felt we felt pretty good about this. We weren't comfortable with how things were working out because they weren't working out yet.

[Assistant] Ok, well, let's get you to this in-country training now finally comes to an end. And now you're going to be assigned as a volunteer.

[User] That's right. Now there were some input. We, you know, we talked about, what we might be more comfortable with. Some people were in little interior towns have had, you know, 100 people, some in towns that might have been 30,000 people. We ended up being placed on a town of, I would guess is 2,800, 3,000. That was just I was fine with us.

[Assistant] And were you the only volunteers there?

[User] We were the only Americans.

[Assistant] You were the first volunteers there. There hadn't been any.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Now there were some input. We, you know, we talked about, what we might be more comfortable with. Some people were in little interior towns have had, you know, 100 people, some in towns that might have been 30,000 people. We ended up being placed on a town of, I would guess is 2,800, 3,000. That was just I was fine with us.

[Assistant] And were you the only volunteers there?

[User] We were the only Americans.

[Assistant] You were the first volunteers there. There hadn't been any.

[User] That's correct. So first and only volunteers.

[Assistant] So there's no place to go but up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were the only Americans.

[Assistant] You were the first volunteers there. There hadn't been any.

[User] That's correct. So first and only volunteers.

[Assistant] So there's no place to go but up.

[User] Well, that's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, talk about arriving in the town and settling in. You have to have a house, a place to live.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. So first and only volunteers.

[Assistant] So there's no place to go but up.

[User] Well, that's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, talk about arriving in the town and settling in. You have to have a house, a place to live.

[User] Well, sure, it finally came down to dropping us off in the first town and it was Atalaia, Alagoas, sugarcane region town, about two hours, maybe from the capital by bus. We are scared little rabbits, you know? But there really wasn't need. Everybody was gracious, warm. We had all kinds of exuberance, welcome, welcoming, by all the local people.

[Assistant] How are you doing with the Portuguese at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, talk about arriving in the town and settling in. You have to have a house, a place to live.

[User] Well, sure, it finally came down to dropping us off in the first town and it was Atalaia, Alagoas, sugarcane region town, about two hours, maybe from the capital by bus. We are scared little rabbits, you know? But there really wasn't need. Everybody was gracious, warm. We had all kinds of exuberance, welcome, welcoming, by all the local people.

[Assistant] How are you doing with the Portuguese at this point?

[User] Oh, we were stumbling, but people were generous in their understanding of our broken language.

[Assistant] You couldn't fall back on English.