[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I keep saying the thing that I remember the most about the change is that shortly after the change we had all these stacks of NACA stationery that we had to just dispose of. It took a few weeks probably until they sent in the new NASA things. We had all these things, what do we do with these? That was one of the things that was a joke among all the secretarial type women.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you moved up as a branch chief first? Then you moved on into more management?

[User] My first leadership was being over the Calibration Lab.

[Assistant] Was there anyone in particular that you had worked for that you modeled some of your management style after? Was there anyone that you admired that you tried to follow the same type of management techniques or anything as you went through?

[User] No. I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Did you just develop your own style? How many people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Antelope Valley is a big aerospace place. There have been periods where almost all the jobs were in aerospace, and you could see the housing go up and down with budgets. In fact for a while her parents, when I was dating her, lived in a place, the housing area was all empty almost. Empty homes. People here, they’re big on aerospace. Of course there’s a lot of new people coming in. Yes, they like those kind of things. People come over here to Palmdale to watch planes take off from here. They get on Sierra Highway, they park and watch new airplanes take off or something, and go to the Base. The Space Shuttle landings on the [dry] lake [bed] were big deals.

[Assistant] That’s what I was going to mention, because so much of that focus during Apollo was not here, because that’s not necessarily what people realized, that the work here was actually going towards reentry, but nobody was aware of that until the Shuttle. Then all of a sudden the Shuttle changed the public perception of what was going on here.

[User] Once I got into the facility management group, my boss was put in charge of this thing about greeting all these people who were coming to—I guess it was the one with Reagan, it must have been.

[Assistant] The July 4th [landing of STS-4].

[User]
Yes. July 4th.

People went to a visitor center in Lancaster at the Antelope Valley Inn, and people were picked up on buses. Me and another engineer, I don’t remember who was with me, we were in charge of one of the buses. We had to talk to the people on the bus about going out, and we were involved in helping the guys with security. Yes, it was a big impact. Of course technically we instrumented the [Shuttle] Carrier Aircraft [SCA, modified Boeing 747]. That was a big deal.

[Assistant] Yes, and that was quite different, the whole idea of the Shuttle and the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once I got into the facility management group, my boss was put in charge of this thing about greeting all these people who were coming to—I guess it was the one with Reagan, it must have been.

[Assistant] The July 4th [landing of STS-4].

[User]
Yes. July 4th.

People went to a visitor center in Lancaster at the Antelope Valley Inn, and people were picked up on buses. Me and another engineer, I don’t remember who was with me, we were in charge of one of the buses. We had to talk to the people on the bus about going out, and we were involved in helping the guys with security. Yes, it was a big impact. Of course technically we instrumented the [Shuttle] Carrier Aircraft [SCA, modified Boeing 747]. That was a big deal.

[Assistant] Yes, and that was quite different, the whole idea of the Shuttle and the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft.

[User] We had instruments on it, we had to put instruments on it. They were concerned about the structure that held the Space Shuttle, and they had strain gauges and all kinds of things. They wanted to know what it did to the fuselage. Even leading up to that first launch was an exciting thing. They didn’t know what was going to happen when they flew. They flew it a lot of times with it up there, but then there was one point where they had to separate it. Even though aerospace people get excited about all things like that.

[Assistant] Do you remember the Approach and Landing Tests [ALT] and the first release? Did you get to see it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were very exciting times.

[Assistant] I imagine the whole community like you said, everybody being involved, and everyone was excited. Did they allow people, if you were family members? Or did they allow the general public to come on site to see those things? Or were there special areas set up so you could see the landings?

[User]
They had special viewing areas for the general public. The families and all went right to the NASA Center.

Yes, they let the families come here, but then up on the hill from Armstrong they had an area where people could come. Then they used to allow people to go in on the other side of the lake. They could drive around toward the rocket site and actually drive out on the lake where it landed and see it from the other side.

Well, viewing areas out there, they were restricted.

Yes, it was always a big deal. The people used to come from all over the place. I remember some guy I went to college with calling me up one time, he was from Turlock. He was coming down to watch the Space Shuttle land over on the Kern County side over near Boron and North Edwards, over on the other side. Yes, they were big deals.\n\n Even in the aeronautical programs, people always liked to celebrate a significant thing on the flight. If something was done, then they’d decide they were going to stop at a place on the way home and celebrate.

I think they had a party after every X-15 landing.

[Assistant] Yes, I was just going to ask you if those were significant, because they had a lot of flights.

[User] I don’t think that was general public so much, but the people involved. They were exciting times too.

[Assistant] In the X-15, when that was ending, there was actually talk of closing the Center at that time, before the Shuttle started. There was that time period that things were a little uncertain, until they decided. I think they moved into the Supersonic Transport work, and that kept things going until the Shuttle. Do you remember that time period? Was there a lot of concern?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think that was general public so much, but the people involved. They were exciting times too.

[Assistant] In the X-15, when that was ending, there was actually talk of closing the Center at that time, before the Shuttle started. There was that time period that things were a little uncertain, until they decided. I think they moved into the Supersonic Transport work, and that kept things going until the Shuttle. Do you remember that time period? Was there a lot of concern?

[User] I think when they put us under Ames I think was one of those times they were wondering about closing the facility. The fellow that was our leader at that time was actually a [Lockheed] U-2 pilot. The spy aircraft. He was the Operations Chief at Ames, and they put him in charge of us [Martin A. Knutson]. They put us under them.

[Assistant] Was that Manke, maybe? John Manke?

[User] No. Manke is the pilot that was a Center Director, and he was a good friend of John McTigue. That’s when they did the reorganization. They just broke up each group to where somebody was in charge of engineers, somebody was in charge of technicians, and somebody was in charge of money and planning. I was in the Facility Management Office handling the money and the oversight of the facility, but the engineers assigned to us were in one group, and the technicians were in another group. I don’t know if they still have that out there that way now or not. It was quite different than the way it was before.

[Assistant] At any point during those times where you weren’t sure about funding or what was going on, were there any times you ever considered not working for NASA, or maybe changing careers, to go somewhere else or do something else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think when they put us under Ames I think was one of those times they were wondering about closing the facility. The fellow that was our leader at that time was actually a [Lockheed] U-2 pilot. The spy aircraft. He was the Operations Chief at Ames, and they put him in charge of us [Martin A. Knutson]. They put us under them.

[Assistant] Was that Manke, maybe? John Manke?

[User] No. Manke is the pilot that was a Center Director, and he was a good friend of John McTigue. That’s when they did the reorganization. They just broke up each group to where somebody was in charge of engineers, somebody was in charge of technicians, and somebody was in charge of money and planning. I was in the Facility Management Office handling the money and the oversight of the facility, but the engineers assigned to us were in one group, and the technicians were in another group. I don’t know if they still have that out there that way now or not. It was quite different than the way it was before.

[Assistant] At any point during those times where you weren’t sure about funding or what was going on, were there any times you ever considered not working for NASA, or maybe changing careers, to go somewhere else or do something else?

[User] No. No, I don’t think so. Actually I took an early out.

[Assistant] In what year did you leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Manke is the pilot that was a Center Director, and he was a good friend of John McTigue. That’s when they did the reorganization. They just broke up each group to where somebody was in charge of engineers, somebody was in charge of technicians, and somebody was in charge of money and planning. I was in the Facility Management Office handling the money and the oversight of the facility, but the engineers assigned to us were in one group, and the technicians were in another group. I don’t know if they still have that out there that way now or not. It was quite different than the way it was before.

[Assistant] At any point during those times where you weren’t sure about funding or what was going on, were there any times you ever considered not working for NASA, or maybe changing careers, to go somewhere else or do something else?

[User] No. No, I don’t think so. Actually I took an early out.

[Assistant] In what year did you leave?

[User] 1985. It was probably one of those times. They offered a lot of the managers early outs. I don’t know if it was during the Ames time or not. It might have been. Because to get you out early they make an offer to you, and you reject it, so they offered me a slot at Ames, and then if I rejected it, they would let you go out. A number of managers went out, and I did. I had 32 years. I think you had to have 25. I went out.

[Assistant] Did you go do anything else afterward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I don’t think so. Actually I took an early out.

[Assistant] In what year did you leave?

[User] 1985. It was probably one of those times. They offered a lot of the managers early outs. I don’t know if it was during the Ames time or not. It might have been. Because to get you out early they make an offer to you, and you reject it, so they offered me a slot at Ames, and then if I rejected it, they would let you go out. A number of managers went out, and I did. I had 32 years. I think you had to have 25. I went out.

[Assistant] Did you go do anything else afterward?

[User] Yes. I went to the rocket site [Air Force Rocket Research Laboratory] on the other side of the lake and worked 15 years.

[Assistant] You had your second career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1985. It was probably one of those times. They offered a lot of the managers early outs. I don’t know if it was during the Ames time or not. It might have been. Because to get you out early they make an offer to you, and you reject it, so they offered me a slot at Ames, and then if I rejected it, they would let you go out. A number of managers went out, and I did. I had 32 years. I think you had to have 25. I went out.

[Assistant] Did you go do anything else afterward?

[User] Yes. I went to the rocket site [Air Force Rocket Research Laboratory] on the other side of the lake and worked 15 years.

[Assistant] You had your second career.

[User] I don’t know why I did it. She didn’t want me to do it. She was a little bit upset about it. I don’t know, it might not have been—it worked out though. It worked out well for me, because I enjoyed my job at the rocket site. There I actually got to work on rockets. I got to work on more—calibration for NASA, I was working in an area that supported the project—up there is right on the rocket, so I enjoyed that. Worked up there.

[Assistant] Did you ever get to fly on anything while you were here? Were you ever interested in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I went to the rocket site [Air Force Rocket Research Laboratory] on the other side of the lake and worked 15 years.

[Assistant] You had your second career.

[User] I don’t know why I did it. She didn’t want me to do it. She was a little bit upset about it. I don’t know, it might not have been—it worked out though. It worked out well for me, because I enjoyed my job at the rocket site. There I actually got to work on rockets. I got to work on more—calibration for NASA, I was working in an area that supported the project—up there is right on the rocket, so I enjoyed that. Worked up there.

[Assistant] Did you ever get to fly on anything while you were here? Were you ever interested in that?

[User] No. Actually people would go up with the pilots. I don’t know if they were supposed to do that or not. I could have got a ride I think, I don’t know. I’m not too hot about it. I know another guy in the Cal Lab got a ride. It’s wild. The pilot likes to turn you over if he can. Some people come back sick. So no.\n\n I’ve been up in airplanes a number of times. We flew to Ames quite a bit in that small airplane. A lot of the guys at Dryden, a lot of people had their own airplanes. There was a spell there where guys were building their own airplanes. The aeronautical people, they like to build their own airplane, and Don Hallberg had a plane of his own. He didn’t build his, but there were a lot of little airports around the valley, and the guys would have their own airplanes.

[Assistant] And I know gliders are a big thing out in this area because of the environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know why I did it. She didn’t want me to do it. She was a little bit upset about it. I don’t know, it might not have been—it worked out though. It worked out well for me, because I enjoyed my job at the rocket site. There I actually got to work on rockets. I got to work on more—calibration for NASA, I was working in an area that supported the project—up there is right on the rocket, so I enjoyed that. Worked up there.

[Assistant] Did you ever get to fly on anything while you were here? Were you ever interested in that?

[User] No. Actually people would go up with the pilots. I don’t know if they were supposed to do that or not. I could have got a ride I think, I don’t know. I’m not too hot about it. I know another guy in the Cal Lab got a ride. It’s wild. The pilot likes to turn you over if he can. Some people come back sick. So no.\n\n I’ve been up in airplanes a number of times. We flew to Ames quite a bit in that small airplane. A lot of the guys at Dryden, a lot of people had their own airplanes. There was a spell there where guys were building their own airplanes. The aeronautical people, they like to build their own airplane, and Don Hallberg had a plane of his own. He didn’t build his, but there were a lot of little airports around the valley, and the guys would have their own airplanes.

[Assistant] And I know gliders are a big thing out in this area because of the environment.

[User] Yes. Oh, yes. Gliders. A lot of guys worked with Paul Bikle. In fact we calibrated some of his stuff. He had an altimeter to measure his flights, altitude. He was trying to break altitude records. They would bring it in the Cal Lab and have one of our guys calibrate it periodically.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting. I know that the personalities of pilots and people that are interested in that are—it’s pretty interesting working with those types of people, I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s right. They wanted to know if that contributed to it. I think they knew some of the things that had happened, but they wondered why they happened. It could be the guy read a meter wrong, but it could be that the meter was doing wrong things too. Well, they had some trouble with the attitude of the vehicle when it came back in. It was in space, so when it came in it had all that stuff that the Space Shuttle gets, and it got some violent effects on it and heat.

[Assistant] How did you take what you had learned and what you had done at NACA and NASA and apply it to your last job on the rocket site?

[User]
I did basically the same thing. They hired me as a quality control guy, not as a technician. I wasn’t even an instrument engineer. They wanted a quality guy. It was after the Shuttle when the rocket blew up.

The Shuttle explosion.

[Assistant] The Challenger [STS-51L]? Okay.

[User]
I guess the same thing might have happened to the Air Force. They were trying to recover those Titan rockets. They decided to fire one at the rocket site, a full-size rocket, vertical. It was right after I retired. I think I had been retired about a year or part of a year. I went over and got interviewed, and they hired me right away. They wanted me to do quality. They wanted me to check instrumentation. They had technicians and guys who were putting everything on—it was just like what we did at NASA and NACA. They had technicians and engineers that were putting them on, but they wanted everything checked. I oversaw the quality control of it.

He sat on top of a fully loaded rocket one day. Checking it out.

[Assistant] Did you know he was going to do that, or did you find out afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I did basically the same thing. They hired me as a quality control guy, not as a technician. I wasn’t even an instrument engineer. They wanted a quality guy. It was after the Shuttle when the rocket blew up.

The Shuttle explosion.

[Assistant] The Challenger [STS-51L]? Okay.

[User]
I guess the same thing might have happened to the Air Force. They were trying to recover those Titan rockets. They decided to fire one at the rocket site, a full-size rocket, vertical. It was right after I retired. I think I had been retired about a year or part of a year. I went over and got interviewed, and they hired me right away. They wanted me to do quality. They wanted me to check instrumentation. They had technicians and guys who were putting everything on—it was just like what we did at NASA and NACA. They had technicians and engineers that were putting them on, but they wanted everything checked. I oversaw the quality control of it.

He sat on top of a fully loaded rocket one day. Checking it out.

[Assistant] Did you know he was going to do that, or did you find out afterwards?

[User] I didn’t know until later.

[Assistant] That’s a little scary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t know until later.

[Assistant] That’s a little scary.

[User] Actually when you work with those guys around rockets, it’s surprising but it’s not—well, what happened is it leaked between the segments. They have segments, each segment is 10 feet but they got to hook together about four or five of them. And when they put them together, they have to put an O-ring in there. You know what an O-ring is?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User]
That’s what caused the accident, the O-ring leaked. They were trying to improve that. But the way they put those things together, they lay one segment on top of another, and they pound these big pegs in all the way around that thing, bam bam. You look at the segment, it’s all full of solid rocket fuel, and they’re pounding these things in. You’d think they’d be worried about sparks or something. I guess it’s a lot harder to light on fire than people think it is.\n\n Just before the firing, they have a crew that handles the rocket when it’s ready to fire, until they fire. They wanted to go up on the upper dome and check the pressure transducer that measures the pressure inside the rocket. That was part of their procedure just before firing, so I would go up with a technician all the way up to the fifth floor, and then crawl up on top of the rocket and hook up to measure the pressure.

And it was already armed.

[Assistant]
Had a good view.

I don’t think I’d look down though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Then they brought one over to Dryden. They wanted to show it to the news people. Interestingly enough, that was probably the first time a lot of the NASA people had seen it.

[Assistant] Yes, I imagine the level of secrecy in things that were going on, because everything was so isolated out here, it was a good place for that type of work.

[User] When they brought that U-2 in, they wanted the public to think that this was a normal thing. We were told not to go out back and watch it or anything. We were told if we went out there we’d be shot, was the rumor going around, but we still all poked our heads out and watched, and never saw anything fly quite like that. We were all really very interested in that.

[Assistant] I imagine you did get to see a lot of very interesting things fly that most people would never even imagine.

[User]
We did. Yes. Then back to the early times and the sonic booms, other than the engineering people that were here the valley was mostly farming. Our population was very small compared to what it is now. Everyone knew. They didn’t know what the projects were, but they knew what all the sonic booms were.

Now there would be a lot of people in Antelope Valley that really wouldn’t have any idea what’s going on at Edwards, I don’t think. Big influx of new people, younger people.

[Assistant] When you and your friends were doing the basketball league and the bowling and hiking, did you all talk about work? Or were you not allowed to talk much about work off the Base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When they brought that U-2 in, they wanted the public to think that this was a normal thing. We were told not to go out back and watch it or anything. We were told if we went out there we’d be shot, was the rumor going around, but we still all poked our heads out and watched, and never saw anything fly quite like that. We were all really very interested in that.

[Assistant] I imagine you did get to see a lot of very interesting things fly that most people would never even imagine.

[User]
We did. Yes. Then back to the early times and the sonic booms, other than the engineering people that were here the valley was mostly farming. Our population was very small compared to what it is now. Everyone knew. They didn’t know what the projects were, but they knew what all the sonic booms were.

Now there would be a lot of people in Antelope Valley that really wouldn’t have any idea what’s going on at Edwards, I don’t think. Big influx of new people, younger people.

[Assistant] When you and your friends were doing the basketball league and the bowling and hiking, did you all talk about work? Or were you not allowed to talk much about work off the Base?

[User] Oh no, we talked about work. You just had to be particularly—I think the secret stuff came more with the X-15. I think it was the X-15 that a lot of people just didn’t want to talk about what they were testing for. People on their outings, I don’t think they talked much about work. A lot of these people ended up being married to each other. I remember people we went around with who were single, and two of them would marry from the group, that’s how they met.

[Assistant] I would imagine that your relationship, you weren’t unusual. I imagine there were other couples that met on site, and that was maybe the only place to meet people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We did. Yes. Then back to the early times and the sonic booms, other than the engineering people that were here the valley was mostly farming. Our population was very small compared to what it is now. Everyone knew. They didn’t know what the projects were, but they knew what all the sonic booms were.

Now there would be a lot of people in Antelope Valley that really wouldn’t have any idea what’s going on at Edwards, I don’t think. Big influx of new people, younger people.

[Assistant] When you and your friends were doing the basketball league and the bowling and hiking, did you all talk about work? Or were you not allowed to talk much about work off the Base?

[User] Oh no, we talked about work. You just had to be particularly—I think the secret stuff came more with the X-15. I think it was the X-15 that a lot of people just didn’t want to talk about what they were testing for. People on their outings, I don’t think they talked much about work. A lot of these people ended up being married to each other. I remember people we went around with who were single, and two of them would marry from the group, that’s how they met.

[Assistant] I would imagine that your relationship, you weren’t unusual. I imagine there were other couples that met on site, and that was maybe the only place to meet people.

[User] It was one of the places, right.

[Assistant]
Yes, the size of the communities weren’t that big.

You didn’t want to go back to work after you had your children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was one of the places, right.

[Assistant]
Yes, the size of the communities weren’t that big.

You didn’t want to go back to work after you had your children?

[User] No, I’ve never gone back. I’ve been a stay-at-home mom.

[Assistant] Full-time job.

[User]
Yes, that is.

I always enjoyed my work. You hear people complain about what they do, and they can’t stand to go to work. I’m sure there were times I didn’t really want to go to work, but I liked what I did. I liked the people I worked with. Even at the rocket site, I enjoyed it. I didn’t stop until I was 70. I worked up there. They had limitations on what you could earn back then. If you were getting a civil service retirement, a government retirement, you could only earn so much. There were periods I couldn’t work full-time. Even then I cut my hours back when they had that law in effect. Yes, I worked till I was 70, I think. Finally, they were starting to cut people. I said, “Well, don’t start cutting me, just tell me not to come in sometime.” Then one January, the supervisor told me, “Harry, don’t come in anymore.”

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about, or any other anecdotes that you can remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Again, it’s very rare for us to see something that you’re working on come to fruition. So that’s fun. You should see it.

[Assistant] I hope to.

[User] Bring family.

[Assistant] We’d like to do that. Well, I don’t want to keep you too much longer. Do you have any questions? Is there anything else you can think of that we might not have touched on, some other significant contribution or challenge that you might have had to deal with?

[User] No. I think, overall, it was a very positive event. I think the funny part was often when my colleagues, especially from offices I’ve worked at before, they were like, “Ah, Chile desk. You’re going to go take it easy for a while.” Then they’d see me walking out of the Department at 11 p.m. “What are you doing?” In this case we were doing something that I think was unique and very positive, so I’m glad to have been a part of it.

[Assistant] Thank you, and thanks for being a part of our project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not. My responsibility is to work on this German night fighter. We still have a wing to complete. The airframe fuselage is out in the museum right here now, but the wing has to be done and a lot of other details. Between escort duties and whatnot, I’m working on that. We’re told that with everything else that’s going on, we’re going to be moving our shop from Maryland out here. I don’t know how that’s going to work out with the Discovery–Enterprise exchange, that’s yet to be determined.

[Assistant] It must have been rewarding to receive that from your peers, that’s wonderful.

[User] Very, yes. I think Valerie Neal, former NASA and our curator, was probably instrumental in getting that for us. It was pretty neat.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, did you have any questions for Ed?

Just one, and I think you might have already answered it. Did you ever come back and do anything else with Enterprise?

[User] I have once or twice, but it was generally just escort duty. Those were times where it was just sit around and wait for whatever the folks, predominately USA, needed. I did come back, and we did reinstall the OMS pods. That was pretty much the original team again that did that, and we brought a couple of other people in to assist because you need spotters and tag line holders.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you would escort for whatever they needed. What were the types of things that they would be coming back for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very, yes. I think Valerie Neal, former NASA and our curator, was probably instrumental in getting that for us. It was pretty neat.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, did you have any questions for Ed?

Just one, and I think you might have already answered it. Did you ever come back and do anything else with Enterprise?

[User] I have once or twice, but it was generally just escort duty. Those were times where it was just sit around and wait for whatever the folks, predominately USA, needed. I did come back, and we did reinstall the OMS pods. That was pretty much the original team again that did that, and we brought a couple of other people in to assist because you need spotters and tag line holders.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you would escort for whatever they needed. What were the types of things that they would be coming back for?

[User] Every time USA came here, they had a lot of supplies. Rather than transport them back, they would leave them out and we would store them in our barn, which is out in the back corner of the property. So the first thing we’d have to do is get their supplies, and that ran anywhere from tape to paints to epoxy glues.\n\n Recently, within the past year, they came back and we took them up on a JLG man lift. They did the work, and I would just maneuver it around to a position that helped them. Like I said, “escort” sounds very static, and sometimes it is, but a lot of times there’s a dynamic component, which is the most fun of all. That’s how you get to know these guys and get to see what they do.

[Assistant] Were they doing types of restoration themselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When I came to work there, I worked for the old Landing and Recovery Division, which was a part of the Flight Operations Directorate. Part of our job then was, of course, recovering the spacecraft, but another part of the job was we had a recovery operations control room in the Mission Control Center, and that’s where we managed the recovery forces, out of that room. Occasionally, I was assigned to that particular room. So yes, I’ve been associated with the control center since day one.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. Okay, so you’ve got a lot of good information for us about the facility itself.

[User] Well, I’ve got a lot of information, (laughter) but I don’t know if I have much time to tell you, though.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] I do have a couple documents that you might want to get a hold of. I’ll tell you about those when we get to that question.

[Assistant] That would be great. Anything that you have to share with us would be fantastic. Why don’t you give us a short history about the Mission Control Center, telling us when it was constructed, what its purpose was, and how the building has changed since you came on board in 1967 until you left in 2007.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, all the equipment was replaced to support the Shuttle Program. Let me see. I wrote a note down here. Let me find out where it is. It was supporting the ALT Program at the time, and the equipment used to support the ALT Program was equipment that we already had. It was just reprogrammed for that particular set of ALT flights. In parallel with that, our development contractor was doing development for the actual Shuttle flights, beginning with the OFT, Orbital Flight Test Program [STS-1 through STS-4], and then subsequently, what they called at the time the ops part of the Shuttle Program. So that’s kind of how we got to there.

[Assistant] Can you tell us what type of equipment you were using for the ALT Program? You mentioned it was stuff that you had. Was that from the Apollo Program?

[User] Yes, yes. I don’t recall exactly what it was. Let’s see. Like I said, it was equipment that we already had. I’m trying to look into this information that I have here to see if it says exactly what it was. I don’t recall exactly.

[Assistant] How was the building changed to support the Space Shuttle Program? You mentioned that equipment was changed out. Were there any major changes done to the building?

[User] Are you talking about the physical building or the systems within the building?

[Assistant] Well, I guess, both.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. I don’t recall exactly what it was. Let’s see. Like I said, it was equipment that we already had. I’m trying to look into this information that I have here to see if it says exactly what it was. I don’t recall exactly.

[Assistant] How was the building changed to support the Space Shuttle Program? You mentioned that equipment was changed out. Were there any major changes done to the building?

[User] Are you talking about the physical building or the systems within the building?

[Assistant] Well, I guess, both.

[User] Both. I do not recall any major physical changes to the building; it’s just that we brought in new equipment that was built and/or just bought specifically for the Shuttle Program. But it was basically all new stuff, and like I said, it was brought in the building, installed, programmed, and tested in support of the STS-1 flight.

[Assistant] This equipment, would it primarily consist of computers, or are there other pieces of equipment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are you talking about the physical building or the systems within the building?

[Assistant] Well, I guess, both.

[User] Both. I do not recall any major physical changes to the building; it’s just that we brought in new equipment that was built and/or just bought specifically for the Shuttle Program. But it was basically all new stuff, and like I said, it was brought in the building, installed, programmed, and tested in support of the STS-1 flight.

[Assistant] This equipment, would it primarily consist of computers, or are there other pieces of equipment?

[User] It’s computers and computer-related equipment. Some of it was hardware—you would term it hardware, versus a computer—but the whole system, from the front end of the building until the displays on the consoles, it was basically all new.

[Assistant] Do you recall when JSC began transitioning the Mission Control Center from the Apollo Program into the Space Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both. I do not recall any major physical changes to the building; it’s just that we brought in new equipment that was built and/or just bought specifically for the Shuttle Program. But it was basically all new stuff, and like I said, it was brought in the building, installed, programmed, and tested in support of the STS-1 flight.

[Assistant] This equipment, would it primarily consist of computers, or are there other pieces of equipment?

[User] It’s computers and computer-related equipment. Some of it was hardware—you would term it hardware, versus a computer—but the whole system, from the front end of the building until the displays on the consoles, it was basically all new.

[Assistant] Do you recall when JSC began transitioning the Mission Control Center from the Apollo Program into the Space Shuttle Program?

[User] Yes, let’s see. In July of 1976, there was a contract awarded for the design, development, implementation, test, and maintenance operations, so I would say that’s when it started, at the initiation of that contract. That was July of ’76.

[Assistant] Who was that awarded to, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s computers and computer-related equipment. Some of it was hardware—you would term it hardware, versus a computer—but the whole system, from the front end of the building until the displays on the consoles, it was basically all new.

[Assistant] Do you recall when JSC began transitioning the Mission Control Center from the Apollo Program into the Space Shuttle Program?

[User] Yes, let’s see. In July of 1976, there was a contract awarded for the design, development, implementation, test, and maintenance operations, so I would say that’s when it started, at the initiation of that contract. That was July of ’76.

[Assistant] Who was that awarded to, do you recall?

[User] Let me see. It was a byproduct of old Philco-Ford. Philco-Ford, of course, built the original stuff in the control center, and they were actually called Aeronutronic Ford [Corporation] at that point in time. The contract number was NAS 9-15014.

[Assistant] As the Landing and Recovery Division sort of—I’m not sure what happened to it exactly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, let’s see. In July of 1976, there was a contract awarded for the design, development, implementation, test, and maintenance operations, so I would say that’s when it started, at the initiation of that contract. That was July of ’76.

[Assistant] Who was that awarded to, do you recall?

[User] Let me see. It was a byproduct of old Philco-Ford. Philco-Ford, of course, built the original stuff in the control center, and they were actually called Aeronutronic Ford [Corporation] at that point in time. The contract number was NAS 9-15014.

[Assistant] As the Landing and Recovery Division sort of—I’m not sure what happened to it exactly.

[User] It was abolished.

[Assistant] Where did you move from there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me see. It was a byproduct of old Philco-Ford. Philco-Ford, of course, built the original stuff in the control center, and they were actually called Aeronutronic Ford [Corporation] at that point in time. The contract number was NAS 9-15014.

[Assistant] As the Landing and Recovery Division sort of—I’m not sure what happened to it exactly.

[User] It was abolished.

[Assistant] Where did you move from there?

[User] I was in the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which was right around late ’71 or early ’72. So at that point in time, all the people that were in that division were kind of fanned out to other jobs. I happened to go into the division that basically was responsible for the control center, for development of maintenance and operations of the control center. That’s kind of where I got into the meat of actually working with MCC systems that were supporting the flights at the time. That would be Apollo. The Apollo fire was in January of ’67, and I came to work there in June of ’67. Then I supported the Apollo flights as a part of the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which again, that’s late ’71 or early ’72, somewhere in that timeframe.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us a little bit about the development of the control center for the Shuttle Program and that entire transition from Apollo into Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was abolished.

[Assistant] Where did you move from there?

[User] I was in the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which was right around late ’71 or early ’72. So at that point in time, all the people that were in that division were kind of fanned out to other jobs. I happened to go into the division that basically was responsible for the control center, for development of maintenance and operations of the control center. That’s kind of where I got into the meat of actually working with MCC systems that were supporting the flights at the time. That would be Apollo. The Apollo fire was in January of ’67, and I came to work there in June of ’67. Then I supported the Apollo flights as a part of the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which again, that’s late ’71 or early ’72, somewhere in that timeframe.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us a little bit about the development of the control center for the Shuttle Program and that entire transition from Apollo into Shuttle?

[User] Well, like I said, I don’t know that I can tell you any detail. There’s a whole bunch of that detail in these documents that I have, but it’s not in my head. (laughter)

[Assistant] Oh, sure. That was a long time ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which was right around late ’71 or early ’72. So at that point in time, all the people that were in that division were kind of fanned out to other jobs. I happened to go into the division that basically was responsible for the control center, for development of maintenance and operations of the control center. That’s kind of where I got into the meat of actually working with MCC systems that were supporting the flights at the time. That would be Apollo. The Apollo fire was in January of ’67, and I came to work there in June of ’67. Then I supported the Apollo flights as a part of the Landing Recovery Division until it was abolished, which again, that’s late ’71 or early ’72, somewhere in that timeframe.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us a little bit about the development of the control center for the Shuttle Program and that entire transition from Apollo into Shuttle?

[User] Well, like I said, I don’t know that I can tell you any detail. There’s a whole bunch of that detail in these documents that I have, but it’s not in my head. (laughter)

[Assistant] Oh, sure. That was a long time ago.

[User] Like I said, it kicked off with that contract, and they went and did the design, a detailed design, and then acquired the systems, the computers and hardware, and then programmed them to the design specs [specifications] that they needed to support the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Were there any complications with that transition as you moved from one major program to another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, like I said, I don’t know that I can tell you any detail. There’s a whole bunch of that detail in these documents that I have, but it’s not in my head. (laughter)

[Assistant] Oh, sure. That was a long time ago.

[User] Like I said, it kicked off with that contract, and they went and did the design, a detailed design, and then acquired the systems, the computers and hardware, and then programmed them to the design specs [specifications] that they needed to support the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Were there any complications with that transition as you moved from one major program to another?

[User] I said no when I read that question. I said nothing out of the ordinary. There’s always some minor complications you run into, but I don’t recall anything major, any glitches at all that caused any delays in the program milestones.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could describe the layout of the Mission Control Center, especially as it existed during the Apollo Program and then, in contrast, for the Shuttle Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like I said, it kicked off with that contract, and they went and did the design, a detailed design, and then acquired the systems, the computers and hardware, and then programmed them to the design specs [specifications] that they needed to support the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Were there any complications with that transition as you moved from one major program to another?

[User] I said no when I read that question. I said nothing out of the ordinary. There’s always some minor complications you run into, but I don’t recall anything major, any glitches at all that caused any delays in the program milestones.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could describe the layout of the Mission Control Center, especially as it existed during the Apollo Program and then, in contrast, for the Shuttle Program.

[User] There really wasn’t a whole lot of difference. That’s pretty good loaded question.

[Assistant] It is? Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said no when I read that question. I said nothing out of the ordinary. There’s always some minor complications you run into, but I don’t recall anything major, any glitches at all that caused any delays in the program milestones.

[Assistant] I wonder if you could describe the layout of the Mission Control Center, especially as it existed during the Apollo Program and then, in contrast, for the Shuttle Program.

[User] There really wasn’t a whole lot of difference. That’s pretty good loaded question.

[Assistant] It is? Okay.

[User] The layout was basically the same. We did have to bring in new systems to support the Shuttle, and then eventually got rid of all the Apollo support equipment. About the only thing that comes to mind major was down on the first floor in the control center, we had an area down there called the RTCC, Real-Time Computing Complex. That was where most of all the computing equipment was. That’s what that was called, the computing complex. A lot of controllers that set up the equipment and managed it were down in that area. That went away, and a lot of the controllers that were down in there actually went to a room up on the third floor in the control center and supported from there. So to me, that’s probably the major difference between the two.

[Assistant] You weren’t relying on huge mainframe computers for the Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There really wasn’t a whole lot of difference. That’s pretty good loaded question.

[Assistant] It is? Okay.

[User] The layout was basically the same. We did have to bring in new systems to support the Shuttle, and then eventually got rid of all the Apollo support equipment. About the only thing that comes to mind major was down on the first floor in the control center, we had an area down there called the RTCC, Real-Time Computing Complex. That was where most of all the computing equipment was. That’s what that was called, the computing complex. A lot of controllers that set up the equipment and managed it were down in that area. That went away, and a lot of the controllers that were down in there actually went to a room up on the third floor in the control center and supported from there. So to me, that’s probably the major difference between the two.

[Assistant] You weren’t relying on huge mainframe computers for the Shuttle Program?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, we did. We had mainframes in there until—I’ve got a piece of paper on that. Let me see. Yes, 2002. [In] 2002, we decommissioned the last mainframe computer.

[Assistant] Wow. That’s amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The layout was basically the same. We did have to bring in new systems to support the Shuttle, and then eventually got rid of all the Apollo support equipment. About the only thing that comes to mind major was down on the first floor in the control center, we had an area down there called the RTCC, Real-Time Computing Complex. That was where most of all the computing equipment was. That’s what that was called, the computing complex. A lot of controllers that set up the equipment and managed it were down in that area. That went away, and a lot of the controllers that were down in there actually went to a room up on the third floor in the control center and supported from there. So to me, that’s probably the major difference between the two.

[Assistant] You weren’t relying on huge mainframe computers for the Shuttle Program?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, we did. We had mainframes in there until—I’ve got a piece of paper on that. Let me see. Yes, 2002. [In] 2002, we decommissioned the last mainframe computer.

[Assistant] Wow. That’s amazing.

[User] So it hasn’t been that long ago, actually, that we did that. But they were there. Of course, it wasn’t the same ones. Computers have a life [cycle], and you usually try to replace them every—depends on which it is—every four or five years. We replaced the mainframes as the old ones became outdated, and the new ones were what was new technology at the time.

[Assistant] Well, if you can, tell me a little bit about the ALT Program. You were working in the control center at that point. Were there any changes that had to be made to accommodate a flight in California versus a spaceflight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, we did. We had mainframes in there until—I’ve got a piece of paper on that. Let me see. Yes, 2002. [In] 2002, we decommissioned the last mainframe computer.

[Assistant] Wow. That’s amazing.

[User] So it hasn’t been that long ago, actually, that we did that. But they were there. Of course, it wasn’t the same ones. Computers have a life [cycle], and you usually try to replace them every—depends on which it is—every four or five years. We replaced the mainframes as the old ones became outdated, and the new ones were what was new technology at the time.

[Assistant] Well, if you can, tell me a little bit about the ALT Program. You were working in the control center at that point. Were there any changes that had to be made to accommodate a flight in California versus a spaceflight?

[User] Yes. We used some of the existing equipment in the control center to support the ALT Program. Of course, the ALT Program was a very short program, and it didn’t require anything really sophisticated because it was just being dropped off the top of a 747, and we were basically just monitoring what it was doing. So it wasn’t a major program change, like it was going from Apollo to Shuttle. The ALT was fairly simple to support. Actually, I myself didn’t actually support the ALT. I had people in the office that did, but I didn’t. I was working on getting prepared for the Shuttle Program. I was doing what we call planning.

[Assistant] Can you tell me more about that, about planning for those first few flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, getting ready for each one of the flights was the same process, like [I] said, planning and then training. Of course, there’s a lot of testing that goes on, too. It’s not just training; you test all the systems that have been reconfigured for that particular flight, and you test all that, and then you have to go use it in training. Then you fly. I don’t know if that answers your question or not.

[Assistant] Well, it sort of actually leads into another question, and then I’ll come back to the other question. For each mission, the control center is reconfigured, is that correct?

[User] To some extent, yes. It’s not necessarily major stuff. I don’t know that there was that much reconfiguration that went on for the first four, the development flights, but sometimes the Shuttle’s onboard software programs get updated, and that may require that the ground software be updated to accommodate that. So there’s that kind of reconfigurations that go on, flight to flight. They still go on today, too, or at least they had been going on. I can’t tell you what’s happening right now. But that kind of thing is not unusual, from flight to flight, to do some kind of reconfigurations. Even the flight controllers that monitor the onboard Shuttle systems, if a Shuttle system changes, then they’ll probably have to go in and change their monitoring tools, which are displays and little digital driver devices. They have to go in and modify those to support the changes that have been made to the Shuttle.

[Assistant] How long does that process take?

[User] That’s hard to say. Depending on the extent of the change, it could be anywhere from a month or 2 months up to maybe 10 months, 12 months. So it would depend upon the extent of the change. It’s kind of hard to answer that.

[Assistant] How long would it take your facility to get ready for a new mission coming up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, STS-1, obviously. I believe it was STS-3 that had to land at White Sands. [Northrop Strip, now] White Sands, [Space Harbor], New Mexico. That one put a scare into me, because when they landed, they had the nose coming down, and they were on the runway, and all the sudden, the nose went whoop, back up. It was kind of a scary thing, but nothing happened. Of course, [the Space Shuttle] Challenger [accident], [the Space Shuttle] Columbia [accident], and then the STS-26 flight, which was the return to flight, first flight after the Challenger accident. Let’s see, I think STS-9 was the first Spacelab mission. Then we had a TDRS, a Tracking and Data Relay Satellite, that was the first one we put up. I think it was STS-4. I’m not certain of that. But anyway, those are kind of the ones that come to mind. A few of the firsts, and, of course, the accidents.

[Assistant] Can you tell us how the Challenger accident impacted operations or the facility at JSC?

[User] Of course, it impacted the people. I don’t know that it impacted anything else because there was nothing we could do about it. We did some testing following it to try to help figure out what went wrong, but other than that, really the impact on operations was that there wasn’t any for a couple of years, because the Shuttle was grounded, and we had to get it fixed before we could fly again.

[Assistant] Were there any modifications made to the building at that point, or equipment, while we were down?

[User] Result of that? No, I don’t recall anything that was done directly as a result of that.

[Assistant] After the Columbia accident, were there any modifications or changes made to the control center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, it impacted the people. I don’t know that it impacted anything else because there was nothing we could do about it. We did some testing following it to try to help figure out what went wrong, but other than that, really the impact on operations was that there wasn’t any for a couple of years, because the Shuttle was grounded, and we had to get it fixed before we could fly again.

[Assistant] Were there any modifications made to the building at that point, or equipment, while we were down?

[User] Result of that? No, I don’t recall anything that was done directly as a result of that.

[Assistant] After the Columbia accident, were there any modifications or changes made to the control center?

[User] Yes, I’m sure there were. After that, they went in and made all these modifications to the Shuttle to be able to do the on-orbit inspection of the tiles. So I’m sure that we made changes on the ground that coincided with the on-board changes they made. But there weren’t any changes made that were really directly as a result of the accident. Like I said, there were on-board changes to the Shuttle made that drove changes to the ground.

[Assistant] When the different Shuttles came—when Challenger came on board, Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour—were there any changes that had to be made to the control center, or are they pretty much the same animal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Result of that? No, I don’t recall anything that was done directly as a result of that.

[Assistant] After the Columbia accident, were there any modifications or changes made to the control center?

[User] Yes, I’m sure there were. After that, they went in and made all these modifications to the Shuttle to be able to do the on-orbit inspection of the tiles. So I’m sure that we made changes on the ground that coincided with the on-board changes they made. But there weren’t any changes made that were really directly as a result of the accident. Like I said, there were on-board changes to the Shuttle made that drove changes to the ground.

[Assistant] When the different Shuttles came—when Challenger came on board, Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour—were there any changes that had to be made to the control center, or are they pretty much the same animal?

[User] Pretty much the same.

[Assistant] What impact did working with DoD [Department of Defense] have upon the Mission Control Center and the facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’m sure there were. After that, they went in and made all these modifications to the Shuttle to be able to do the on-orbit inspection of the tiles. So I’m sure that we made changes on the ground that coincided with the on-board changes they made. But there weren’t any changes made that were really directly as a result of the accident. Like I said, there were on-board changes to the Shuttle made that drove changes to the ground.

[Assistant] When the different Shuttles came—when Challenger came on board, Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour—were there any changes that had to be made to the control center, or are they pretty much the same animal?

[User] Pretty much the same.

[Assistant] What impact did working with DoD [Department of Defense] have upon the Mission Control Center and the facility?

[User] Which question is that on this paper? Oh, I see. How did DoD-classified flights impact the facility? What measures were taken to protect classified information?\n\n Well, of course, it did impact the facility, because we had to make modifications to protect data security. The third floor of the control center was used for the support of the DoD flights, and we had to keep all the information that was classified separate from the regular unclassified STS [Space Transportation System] information. So, for instance, we had cable runs under the floor; the ones that supported the classified flights were separate from the ones that supported the non-classified flights. That was pretty much across the board, everything, even the voice loops on the key sets, the ones that could have classified information on them were separate from the ones that didn’t. So yes, there was a lot of impact to prepare the facility for the DoD flights.

[Assistant] Do you know when that process began, as you began to revitalize the Mission Control Center in support of DoD missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much the same.

[Assistant] What impact did working with DoD [Department of Defense] have upon the Mission Control Center and the facility?

[User] Which question is that on this paper? Oh, I see. How did DoD-classified flights impact the facility? What measures were taken to protect classified information?\n\n Well, of course, it did impact the facility, because we had to make modifications to protect data security. The third floor of the control center was used for the support of the DoD flights, and we had to keep all the information that was classified separate from the regular unclassified STS [Space Transportation System] information. So, for instance, we had cable runs under the floor; the ones that supported the classified flights were separate from the ones that supported the non-classified flights. That was pretty much across the board, everything, even the voice loops on the key sets, the ones that could have classified information on them were separate from the ones that didn’t. So yes, there was a lot of impact to prepare the facility for the DoD flights.

[Assistant] Do you know when that process began, as you began to revitalize the Mission Control Center in support of DoD missions?

[User] Let’s see. I don’t recall that, no. I’m sure it’s in one of these documents that I have.

[Assistant] Are those wires and all of the other changes that you made to the facility, are they still located in the facility, or have they been taken out since?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which question is that on this paper? Oh, I see. How did DoD-classified flights impact the facility? What measures were taken to protect classified information?\n\n Well, of course, it did impact the facility, because we had to make modifications to protect data security. The third floor of the control center was used for the support of the DoD flights, and we had to keep all the information that was classified separate from the regular unclassified STS [Space Transportation System] information. So, for instance, we had cable runs under the floor; the ones that supported the classified flights were separate from the ones that supported the non-classified flights. That was pretty much across the board, everything, even the voice loops on the key sets, the ones that could have classified information on them were separate from the ones that didn’t. So yes, there was a lot of impact to prepare the facility for the DoD flights.

[Assistant] Do you know when that process began, as you began to revitalize the Mission Control Center in support of DoD missions?

[User] Let’s see. I don’t recall that, no. I’m sure it’s in one of these documents that I have.

[Assistant] Are those wires and all of the other changes that you made to the facility, are they still located in the facility, or have they been taken out since?

[User] Of course, what we did do also is the third-floor control room was deemed a National Historical Monument. Basically, all that equipment that was stored in it was declassified. Actually, it was about the same time as we were putting in new equipment, so it was all decommissioned basically in place.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the DoD missions that stand out in your mind, or were they just one of many?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. I don’t recall that, no. I’m sure it’s in one of these documents that I have.

[Assistant] Are those wires and all of the other changes that you made to the facility, are they still located in the facility, or have they been taken out since?

[User] Of course, what we did do also is the third-floor control room was deemed a National Historical Monument. Basically, all that equipment that was stored in it was declassified. Actually, it was about the same time as we were putting in new equipment, so it was all decommissioned basically in place.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the DoD missions that stand out in your mind, or were they just one of many?

[User] (laughs) No, there’s none that stand out in my mind.

[Assistant] I’m curious. As the program matured, we started out with the four flight tests, and then we became operational, and over the years, the flights became much more complex, especially now that we have Space Station. Did that change the operations at all within the facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, what we did do also is the third-floor control room was deemed a National Historical Monument. Basically, all that equipment that was stored in it was declassified. Actually, it was about the same time as we were putting in new equipment, so it was all decommissioned basically in place.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the DoD missions that stand out in your mind, or were they just one of many?

[User] (laughs) No, there’s none that stand out in my mind.

[Assistant] I’m curious. As the program matured, we started out with the four flight tests, and then we became operational, and over the years, the flights became much more complex, especially now that we have Space Station. Did that change the operations at all within the facility?

[User] Not really. The basic operation of how you manage a flight is the same. Matter of fact, it’s basically the same as it’s been since day one, you know. The flight director and the team and all the support personnel—it’s basically all the same now. The only really difference is the interaction between the Station team and the Shuttle team. That’s a little different. But again, the way they do it, and the way they manage it is basically the same since it’s been since day one.

[Assistant] How many people would typically work in the control center when a mission was up? Is that about the same number as the sim?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] (laughs) No, there’s none that stand out in my mind.

[Assistant] I’m curious. As the program matured, we started out with the four flight tests, and then we became operational, and over the years, the flights became much more complex, especially now that we have Space Station. Did that change the operations at all within the facility?

[User] Not really. The basic operation of how you manage a flight is the same. Matter of fact, it’s basically the same as it’s been since day one, you know. The flight director and the team and all the support personnel—it’s basically all the same now. The only really difference is the interaction between the Station team and the Shuttle team. That’s a little different. But again, the way they do it, and the way they manage it is basically the same since it’s been since day one.

[Assistant] How many people would typically work in the control center when a mission was up? Is that about the same number as the sim?

[User] That’s the number I gave you, 300.

[Assistant] Okay, it’s 300.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. The basic operation of how you manage a flight is the same. Matter of fact, it’s basically the same as it’s been since day one, you know. The flight director and the team and all the support personnel—it’s basically all the same now. The only really difference is the interaction between the Station team and the Shuttle team. That’s a little different. But again, the way they do it, and the way they manage it is basically the same since it’s been since day one.

[Assistant] How many people would typically work in the control center when a mission was up? Is that about the same number as the sim?

[User] That’s the number I gave you, 300.

[Assistant] Okay, it’s 300.

[User] Back to that question. I told you about how many per shift, and that was basically for a flight. Now, there could be some tests were being run or stuff like that, there might be only a handful of people in there running the test. Then, of course, we have the team that’s in there 24/7 that operates the control center: the system, the computers, and all that. They’re in there all the time. That depends. It probably averages 30, 40 people.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of the unique equipment in your building that you used to support the Shuttle Program? Was there anything in particular that stands out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the number I gave you, 300.

[Assistant] Okay, it’s 300.

[User] Back to that question. I told you about how many per shift, and that was basically for a flight. Now, there could be some tests were being run or stuff like that, there might be only a handful of people in there running the test. Then, of course, we have the team that’s in there 24/7 that operates the control center: the system, the computers, and all that. They’re in there all the time. That depends. It probably averages 30, 40 people.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of the unique equipment in your building that you used to support the Shuttle Program? Was there anything in particular that stands out?

[User] Where’s that question?

[Assistant] Right above the DoD question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where’s that question?

[Assistant] Right above the DoD question.

[User] Oh, okay. I found it. Not really. Most of the equipment in the building now is COTS, Commercial Off-The-Shelf. Now, back in the Apollo days, there were some pieces of equipment that were designed and built specifically because there wasn’t anything out there off the shelf that would really support the requirements or the needs. Two pieces of equipment to come to mind regarding that are DVIS—Digital Voice Intercom System. It was a system that was designed and built by Ford—oh, golly—back in the early nineties. It’s still there; it’s still operating. Or else was when I left. I don’t know if it still is or not.\n\n The other piece of equipment that was designed and built specifically for the control center was the projection plotter. That’s the big screen, the 10 by 20-foot screen that’s in the flight control room that plots the trajectory of the vehicle. It was actually designed and built specifically for that purpose. Now, it has been since decommissioned and replaced with other projectors—they’re as good a quality a projector as what we had back then. Back then, you couldn’t get anything that was the quality we needed. So those are two pieces of equipment that we had, or, like I said, we still do have the Digital Voice System, DVIS, but the plotters are now—I remember the last plotter that we actually had designed and built for the control room cost us about a million and a half bucks.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Projectors that we buy that are replacements today cost us about $10,000 or $15,000. So that’s what technology advancement has done for us.

[Assistant] The Shuttle Program was pretty cost-conscious, so there wasn’t any unique equipment that you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, okay. I found it. Not really. Most of the equipment in the building now is COTS, Commercial Off-The-Shelf. Now, back in the Apollo days, there were some pieces of equipment that were designed and built specifically because there wasn’t anything out there off the shelf that would really support the requirements or the needs. Two pieces of equipment to come to mind regarding that are DVIS—Digital Voice Intercom System. It was a system that was designed and built by Ford—oh, golly—back in the early nineties. It’s still there; it’s still operating. Or else was when I left. I don’t know if it still is or not.\n\n The other piece of equipment that was designed and built specifically for the control center was the projection plotter. That’s the big screen, the 10 by 20-foot screen that’s in the flight control room that plots the trajectory of the vehicle. It was actually designed and built specifically for that purpose. Now, it has been since decommissioned and replaced with other projectors—they’re as good a quality a projector as what we had back then. Back then, you couldn’t get anything that was the quality we needed. So those are two pieces of equipment that we had, or, like I said, we still do have the Digital Voice System, DVIS, but the plotters are now—I remember the last plotter that we actually had designed and built for the control room cost us about a million and a half bucks.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Projectors that we buy that are replacements today cost us about $10,000 or $15,000. So that’s what technology advancement has done for us.

[Assistant] The Shuttle Program was pretty cost-conscious, so there wasn’t any unique equipment that you can think of?

[User] Other than what I’ve just told you, no.

[Assistant] Oh, I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I’m sorry, I thought that these two items were built for the Apollo Program, but continued to be used in Shuttle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Projectors that we buy that are replacements today cost us about $10,000 or $15,000. So that’s what technology advancement has done for us.

[Assistant] The Shuttle Program was pretty cost-conscious, so there wasn’t any unique equipment that you can think of?

[User] Other than what I’ve just told you, no.

[Assistant] Oh, I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I’m sorry, I thought that these two items were built for the Apollo Program, but continued to be used in Shuttle.

[User] No, no, no, like I said, the DVIS system was actually built in the early nineties.

[Assistant] Oh, okay, I misunderstood.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than what I’ve just told you, no.

[Assistant] Oh, I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I’m sorry, I thought that these two items were built for the Apollo Program, but continued to be used in Shuttle.

[User] No, no, no, like I said, the DVIS system was actually built in the early nineties.

[Assistant] Oh, okay, I misunderstood.

[User] So that was well into the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the building, okay?

[Assistant] Okay, yes. (laughs)


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no, like I said, the DVIS system was actually built in the early nineties.

[Assistant] Oh, okay, I misunderstood.

[User] So that was well into the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the building, okay?

[Assistant] Okay, yes. (laughs)

[User] Then the other thing is the plotters. They did support Apollo, but they also supported Shuttle up until the time that technology built something that was an adequate replacement part. I don’t recall exactly when that was, but I think it was sometime in the mid-nineties.

[Assistant] During your time that you worked at the control center, the original control center was closed out, and there was a new flight control room established for the Shuttle Program. Can you tell us a little about that and why that decision was made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was well into the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the Shuttle Program. It was built to support the building, okay?

[Assistant] Okay, yes. (laughs)

[User] Then the other thing is the plotters. They did support Apollo, but they also supported Shuttle up until the time that technology built something that was an adequate replacement part. I don’t recall exactly when that was, but I think it was sometime in the mid-nineties.

[Assistant] During your time that you worked at the control center, the original control center was closed out, and there was a new flight control room established for the Shuttle Program. Can you tell us a little about that and why that decision was made?

[User] The new building that was built, and it’s kind of attached to the old building, the new building was built to support the ISS, International Space Station. Matter of fact, initially, they called it SSCC, Space Station Control Center. That’s what it was built for. Due to budget crunches and stuff like that, we shut down the third floor control stuff because of budget problems, and then we flew the Shuttle flights out of the second-floor control room from then until when the new building got built.\n\n What they ended up doing in the new building was they put the International Space Station control room in a room that wasn’t really designed and built for that purpose—but again, this was all due to budget concerns and problems—and they took the Shuttle control room from the old building over to the new building, into the flight control room that was actually supposed to support Space Station. So that’s kind of how the sequence of events occurred there between how they got from the old building to the new building. Recently, they moved the International Space Station control room back over to the old building, into that second-floor flight control room. So that was the sequence of events, what happened there.

[Assistant] There was a new Shuttle Mission Evaluation Room added in 2004.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then the other thing is the plotters. They did support Apollo, but they also supported Shuttle up until the time that technology built something that was an adequate replacement part. I don’t recall exactly when that was, but I think it was sometime in the mid-nineties.

[Assistant] During your time that you worked at the control center, the original control center was closed out, and there was a new flight control room established for the Shuttle Program. Can you tell us a little about that and why that decision was made?

[User] The new building that was built, and it’s kind of attached to the old building, the new building was built to support the ISS, International Space Station. Matter of fact, initially, they called it SSCC, Space Station Control Center. That’s what it was built for. Due to budget crunches and stuff like that, we shut down the third floor control stuff because of budget problems, and then we flew the Shuttle flights out of the second-floor control room from then until when the new building got built.\n\n What they ended up doing in the new building was they put the International Space Station control room in a room that wasn’t really designed and built for that purpose—but again, this was all due to budget concerns and problems—and they took the Shuttle control room from the old building over to the new building, into the flight control room that was actually supposed to support Space Station. So that’s kind of how the sequence of events occurred there between how they got from the old building to the new building. Recently, they moved the International Space Station control room back over to the old building, into that second-floor flight control room. So that was the sequence of events, what happened there.

[Assistant] There was a new Shuttle Mission Evaluation Room added in 2004.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that?

[User] I sure can. Matter of fact, I was the project manager for that.

[Assistant] Fantastic.

[User] Let’s see, where did I write that down? Well, I can’t find it. Where is that on your list?

[Assistant] It’s not one of the questions. I just had some notes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure can. Matter of fact, I was the project manager for that.

[Assistant] Fantastic.

[User] Let’s see, where did I write that down? Well, I can’t find it. Where is that on your list?

[Assistant] It’s not one of the questions. I just had some notes.

[User] I wrote something down about that here.

[Assistant] You might have written it with the sections of questions about how the building had changed over time or any modifications of the building.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see, where did I write that down? Well, I can’t find it. Where is that on your list?

[Assistant] It’s not one of the questions. I just had some notes.

[User] I wrote something down about that here.

[Assistant] You might have written it with the sections of questions about how the building had changed over time or any modifications of the building.

[User] Yes. Let me just tell you what I wrote down. I know your question was specifically about the MER [Mission Evaluation Room], but basically what I said is the facility is really in constant change, because as the systems get old, they have to be replaced. So the systems and the facility is in constant change. For instance, back in I think it was ’98 or ’99, we built a new Customer Support Room [CSR] that was designed to support both programs, the Shuttle Program and the International Space Station Program. So that was built I think it was in ’98 or ’99, somewhere in there. Then the new MER was built, and that was a result of the Columbia accident. The MER folks decided they needed more room, and they came up with the money, and we built it.\n\n Then, most recently, the old FCR 1 [Flight Control Room] that was used for Apollo and Shuttle, it was converted and built into a Flight Control Room for the International Space Station ops, and the reason that was done is because the International Space Station control room over in the new building was pretty small, and people were not happy with being in confined spaces. So the Flight Control Room 1, was there, wasn’t being used for anything. Well, it was being used for something, but what it was being used for was payload and that kind of support, and that got moved into some other building, so it was available to convert and do the flight control room for the International Space Station controllers.

[Assistant] It sounds like the building changes quite a bit, as you pointed out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wrote something down about that here.

[Assistant] You might have written it with the sections of questions about how the building had changed over time or any modifications of the building.

[User] Yes. Let me just tell you what I wrote down. I know your question was specifically about the MER [Mission Evaluation Room], but basically what I said is the facility is really in constant change, because as the systems get old, they have to be replaced. So the systems and the facility is in constant change. For instance, back in I think it was ’98 or ’99, we built a new Customer Support Room [CSR] that was designed to support both programs, the Shuttle Program and the International Space Station Program. So that was built I think it was in ’98 or ’99, somewhere in there. Then the new MER was built, and that was a result of the Columbia accident. The MER folks decided they needed more room, and they came up with the money, and we built it.\n\n Then, most recently, the old FCR 1 [Flight Control Room] that was used for Apollo and Shuttle, it was converted and built into a Flight Control Room for the International Space Station ops, and the reason that was done is because the International Space Station control room over in the new building was pretty small, and people were not happy with being in confined spaces. So the Flight Control Room 1, was there, wasn’t being used for anything. Well, it was being used for something, but what it was being used for was payload and that kind of support, and that got moved into some other building, so it was available to convert and do the flight control room for the International Space Station controllers.

[Assistant] It sounds like the building changes quite a bit, as you pointed out.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you know who the contractors were who made changes to the building in terms of these facility changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you know who the contractors were who made changes to the building in terms of these facility changes?

[User] Well, it’s different ones, but the initial contractors in the building getting ready for Gemini and Apollo were Philco-Ford and IBM [International Business Machines]. The contracts to do the ops and development work in the building are redone about every—it could be as little as three years or as much as ten years, but they’re recompeted. For instance, in ’86, the ops contract was competed, and Rockwell Space Operations got that. That would be USA [United Space Alliance], primarily. Then Lockheed Martin did development work for the ISS [International Space Station] and Shuttle. Then, of course, I mentioned the Aeroneutronic Ford. So the contractors support that business change from time to time. Matter of fact, one of these documents that I have here says, “Contractual History of Major Implementation and Operations Milestones.”

[Assistant] Oh, fantastic.

[User] It’s a document that picks up in April of 1962, and it is dated 1985, so it covers at least through ’85. The other one is a document called, “MCC Development History,” and it was compiled in 1990.

[Assistant] These two documents that you mentioned, you’d be willing to share those with our office so we can get them scanned and share them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s different ones, but the initial contractors in the building getting ready for Gemini and Apollo were Philco-Ford and IBM [International Business Machines]. The contracts to do the ops and development work in the building are redone about every—it could be as little as three years or as much as ten years, but they’re recompeted. For instance, in ’86, the ops contract was competed, and Rockwell Space Operations got that. That would be USA [United Space Alliance], primarily. Then Lockheed Martin did development work for the ISS [International Space Station] and Shuttle. Then, of course, I mentioned the Aeroneutronic Ford. So the contractors support that business change from time to time. Matter of fact, one of these documents that I have here says, “Contractual History of Major Implementation and Operations Milestones.”

[Assistant] Oh, fantastic.

[User] It’s a document that picks up in April of 1962, and it is dated 1985, so it covers at least through ’85. The other one is a document called, “MCC Development History,” and it was compiled in 1990.

[Assistant] These two documents that you mentioned, you’d be willing to share those with our office so we can get them scanned and share them?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] That’d be great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a document that picks up in April of 1962, and it is dated 1985, so it covers at least through ’85. The other one is a document called, “MCC Development History,” and it was compiled in 1990.

[Assistant] These two documents that you mentioned, you’d be willing to share those with our office so we can get them scanned and share them?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] That’d be great.

[User] Matter of fact, what I wrote down here is—I don’t know if you guys did an oral with Dennis [R.] Hehir.

[Assistant] No, his name doesn’t sound familiar at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] That’d be great.

[User] Matter of fact, what I wrote down here is—I don’t know if you guys did an oral with Dennis [R.] Hehir.

[Assistant] No, his name doesn’t sound familiar at all.

[User] He took over as facility manager for the control center when I retired. He has copies of these.

[Assistant] So you think I should just contact him directly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He took over as facility manager for the control center when I retired. He has copies of these.

[Assistant] So you think I should just contact him directly?

[User] Yes, I would. He has the copies. Let me give you the names of them again. “MCC Development History,” August 1990. The information in that document—well, you’ll see; his name’s on it—Ray Loree is the guy that compiled it. The information came from different places. The other one was “The Contractual History of Major Implementation and Ops Milestones.” The document has a date of 1986 on it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] One other thing. There’s a letter. It’s a bunch of information, and it was compiled by Bob Legler, Robert [D.] Legler, in ’97. There were some questions that one of the reporters, John Getter—I don’t know if you remember him or not. I think he was a CBS reporter. A bunch of questions, historically MCC questions. This Getter got a bunch of good information. Dennis has that also.

[Assistant]
Okay, great. I’ll send him an e-mail.

Just a couple more questions. Do you think that there’s anyone else that we should talk to to get as much history as we can about the facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I would. He has the copies. Let me give you the names of them again. “MCC Development History,” August 1990. The information in that document—well, you’ll see; his name’s on it—Ray Loree is the guy that compiled it. The information came from different places. The other one was “The Contractual History of Major Implementation and Ops Milestones.” The document has a date of 1986 on it.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] One other thing. There’s a letter. It’s a bunch of information, and it was compiled by Bob Legler, Robert [D.] Legler, in ’97. There were some questions that one of the reporters, John Getter—I don’t know if you remember him or not. I think he was a CBS reporter. A bunch of questions, historically MCC questions. This Getter got a bunch of good information. Dennis has that also.

[Assistant]
Okay, great. I’ll send him an e-mail.

Just a couple more questions. Do you think that there’s anyone else that we should talk to to get as much history as we can about the facility?

[User] Yes. I don’t know if you remember Jack Knight.

[Assistant] Yes, actually, I think we’ve talked with Jack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One other thing. There’s a letter. It’s a bunch of information, and it was compiled by Bob Legler, Robert [D.] Legler, in ’97. There were some questions that one of the reporters, John Getter—I don’t know if you remember him or not. I think he was a CBS reporter. A bunch of questions, historically MCC questions. This Getter got a bunch of good information. Dennis has that also.

[Assistant]
Okay, great. I’ll send him an e-mail.

Just a couple more questions. Do you think that there’s anyone else that we should talk to to get as much history as we can about the facility?

[User] Yes. I don’t know if you remember Jack Knight.

[Assistant] Yes, actually, I think we’ve talked with Jack.

[User] Oh, you have?

[Assistant] Well, for our oral history project, not for this project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t know if you remember Jack Knight.

[Assistant] Yes, actually, I think we’ve talked with Jack.

[User] Oh, you have?

[Assistant] Well, for our oral history project, not for this project.

[User] He was actually a flight controller. He was a division chief. He knows a whole lot about the history of the flight control part of the operation. Now, he was never—well, I won’t say never—he came over and became our division chief for a while, but he was mostly in the flight control operation, and he’s got a whole lot of history in his head about that.

[Assistant] Okay, anybody else that you suggest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. And they have different tools, they have different machines, their analysis programs are different, everything is different, and you have to kind of—if you can understand what they're doing, you have to understand their tools and how they go about doing things and how they stress things.

[Assistant] After the redesign phase was over, you took a new position, which was of chief engineer of the International Space Station.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No?

[User] No. What I did was, I agreed to go over and manage Option C, the design. You know, we had those three designs. Langley had one, Marshall had one, and JSC had one, and I think Langley's was Option A and Marshall's was Option B, and I had Option C.\n\n Option C basically was taking the external tank and converting it into a container, pressure container, for you to put all of the equipment in. We would launch it in place of the Orbiter. You hang it on the side of the external tank and launch it, one launch, put up their complete space station, and then the next launch is, you'd go up and you'd be servicing it. It was a ninety-day activity, and I headed that up for the Johnson Space Center. When that was over, when that was finished, then I retired. I guess I hung around a little while, because I stayed until Aaron left, and then when Aaron left, I left.

[Assistant] You seemed to work a great deal with Aaron Cohen. Why don't you tell us a little bit about him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] An important element and myself being what we might call over coordinated. I'm not an athlete. I was out on the soccer field for the first soccer game in which I broke my nose by Peter Von Christersen and a good friend and a very good player. And there were so many good players and among the men that were there. But I wasn't. And so I didn't I didn't jump to had the balls the right time. And I packed my head, my head hit his head and ended up with Dr. John Hoopas, who was trying to put my nose back together again. And he did as well as best he could. And then he said after it was all over, he said, I'm not a surgeon. And I was still a little bit of a kink in it. It may be when you come back with me, you may have to be broken again to make it straight. And I said vanity is not one of my strong points. And therefore I expected that people passing by my last remains might notice that. But who knows?

[Assistant] I will say, Tom, now that you pointed out, I can see that I could see that little curve.

[User] It’s a little crook there, in the nose.

[Assistant] But I would never have noticed it had it not been part of your story.

[User] Oh, that's good. That was part of my history in the Peace Corps. Yes, the training included the athletics. That was when I say I went along with it to be part of the group, but when I was not a champion.

[Assistant] So you played soccer. What other things did you do as part of this physical training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a little crook there, in the nose.

[Assistant] But I would never have noticed it had it not been part of your story.

[User] Oh, that's good. That was part of my history in the Peace Corps. Yes, the training included the athletics. That was when I say I went along with it to be part of the group, but when I was not a champion.

[Assistant] So you played soccer. What other things did you do as part of this physical training?

[User] Swimming and those people who couldn't swim? They really were trying to learn how, because we knew that Bangladesh was a country of rivers and we had this impression that we needed to know that. And so there were there were experts who were brought in from the local fire company, I believe, and they and also the local emergency services. So they give us some good ideas about how to take care of yourself in a place where you were on your own. And we had to be aware that there were things that were especially dysentery, which was a very great concern because we knew that there had been at least one incident, I believe, in the Philippines where, you know, a volunteer had been lost. And so we were well aware of that. We needed to we needed to take care of making sure that we eat right.

[Assistant] And when you say volunteer, in this case, it would have been a volunteer with the Experiment in International Living because the Peace Corps wasn't in the Philippines yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just myself.

[Assistant] Oh, you're by yourself.

[User] So we were all each individual. Each one of us went to a different location. We had a homestay.

[Assistant] And so how, what language did they speak English or were you then on your own or?

[User] They spoke really good English.

[Assistant] Didn't have to rely on your Bengali.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were all each individual. Each one of us went to a different location. We had a homestay.

[Assistant] And so how, what language did they speak English or were you then on your own or?

[User] They spoke really good English.

[Assistant] Didn't have to rely on your Bengali.

[User] Very good English. And he was he was Muslim. And a surprising part of it was his wife was Hindu, most amazing. And he was he was quite a jokester. And he took me he took me to a party one night and we were there with a mixed group of Muslims and Hindus that were in the professional elevation society that he was at. And somebody handed me a drink and I thought it was just soda. And I took a little whiff of it and it was scotch. And I thought to myself, my goodness, I can't be drinking. This is a Muslim country. This will make a bad impression. And his name was, um, Shaukat Ali Khan. His name was Shaukat Ali Khan. He was a lawyer, defense lawyer. And he said when I put it down, he said, Tom, that's very expensive. You can't waste that. And so I had to drink it, you know.

[Assistant] And he wasn't offended. So he did he have any alcohol as a Muslim?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My second year.

[Assistant] Ok, so we're moving into. So you've spent about six months teaching.

[User] Six months teaching. And then in the next few months, I was a little handyman and then going around and learning and, you know, how things worked and helping troubleshoot troubleshooting projects here that helped in other areas. So I tried to be helpful to the people or our staff and in Dhaka. And I think I was then and then a bit then the next group was on its way into this irrigation project and they were going to need places to stay. So I. There were 16 volunteers coming in.

[Assistant] Oh, this is the next group of Peace Corps?

[User] Yes. Next group of Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] So East Pakistan II, if you will.