[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Charlie [Charles J.] Precourt? [Those] Who stayed on Mir, yes?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I believe we also can include [James D.] Wetherbee and Charles Precourt. Bill Readdy, Wetherbee, and Charles Precourt.

[Assistant] And we would also like to interview the cosmonauts who interacted with the Mir during the Mir Shuttle program.

[User] It's more difficult, but to try to meet with them during their stay in the U.S.

[Assistant] Yes. And we may not be able to do all, but we would like to do as many as our time and our budget allows us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe we also can include [James D.] Wetherbee and Charles Precourt. Bill Readdy, Wetherbee, and Charles Precourt.

[Assistant] And we would also like to interview the cosmonauts who interacted with the Mir during the Mir Shuttle program.

[User] It's more difficult, but to try to meet with them during their stay in the U.S.

[Assistant] Yes. And we may not be able to do all, but we would like to do as many as our time and our budget allows us.

[User] How long shall we have this [interview] session?

[Assistant] Tell him that's his pleasure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's more difficult, but to try to meet with them during their stay in the U.S.

[Assistant] Yes. And we may not be able to do all, but we would like to do as many as our time and our budget allows us.

[User] How long shall we have this [interview] session?

[Assistant] Tell him that's his pleasure.

[User] Are you going to broadcast outside, educational programs, through NASA channels or do you plan to do it in a wider way?

[Assistant] The project as a whole?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How long shall we have this [interview] session?

[Assistant] Tell him that's his pleasure.

[User] Are you going to broadcast outside, educational programs, through NASA channels or do you plan to do it in a wider way?

[Assistant] The project as a whole?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It's for all the world to know about the Mir Shuttle project, and so once we gather this data, there are plans to do a book that anybody can buy. We'd like to be able to do things on the Internet and that sort of thing. So, it's something that NASA is doing, but will share with the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are you going to broadcast outside, educational programs, through NASA channels or do you plan to do it in a wider way?

[Assistant] The project as a whole?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It's for all the world to know about the Mir Shuttle project, and so once we gather this data, there are plans to do a book that anybody can buy. We'd like to be able to do things on the Internet and that sort of thing. So, it's something that NASA is doing, but will share with the world.

[User] I would like to say why I am asking this. I'm wondering if it's possible to show a piece of this project, with this recording in Russian, for Russian people.

[Assistant] I was going to ask if there are any plans in Russia to do the same sort of thing, because I think that would be a good exchange of information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It's for all the world to know about the Mir Shuttle project, and so once we gather this data, there are plans to do a book that anybody can buy. We'd like to be able to do things on the Internet and that sort of thing. So, it's something that NASA is doing, but will share with the world.

[User] I would like to say why I am asking this. I'm wondering if it's possible to show a piece of this project, with this recording in Russian, for Russian people.

[Assistant] I was going to ask if there are any plans in Russia to do the same sort of thing, because I think that would be a good exchange of information.

[User] Frankly speaking, I don't have time for it, but I agree this will be very useful.

[Assistant] I didn't mean for you to do it, but some organization similar to NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would like to say why I am asking this. I'm wondering if it's possible to show a piece of this project, with this recording in Russian, for Russian people.

[Assistant] I was going to ask if there are any plans in Russia to do the same sort of thing, because I think that would be a good exchange of information.

[User] Frankly speaking, I don't have time for it, but I agree this will be very useful.

[Assistant] I didn't mean for you to do it, but some organization similar to NASA.

[User] I didn't study such a possibility yet, but maybe I need to talk to the representatives of Star City, and maybe they will be interested in this project. This issue with other people, I don't know what will be their reaction. I believe this will be very useful for Russia, as well, to show such a movie about the space project.\n\n Several years ago, we had a special program on Russian TV. It lasted about thirty minutes, one hour, and the person who was in charge of it, his name is [Vitaly Ivanovich] Sevastyanov, and he was a cosmonaut. It was a very good program. Unfortunately, this program disappeared, and Russian TV doesn't have any program dedicated to space issues. It was like an introduction.\n\n Now one hour left [referring to the interview session]; it's better than two hours.\n\n Unfortunately, we don't have too much time. I hear you have a lot of questions, and if I start giving answers to every question in detail, then we will run out of time, and I would like to suggest you select several questions and I'll respond to them. If I explain all things in detail, then it will take all day, and then we'll be able to drink a lot of

[Assistant] Yes, and we look forward to that time. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In those times it was like a big fantasy, and I never could imagine that I would have to do this, what I did. I never could dream about it. Now children can dream and they can say, since an early age, "I'm going to be an astronaut" or cosmonaut, but at that time there was not such a profession. People of my generation couldn't dream about it, because they did not know what to dream about at the time.

[Assistant] You were a tank commander. Do you have this great love of small, confined places, being a tank commander and then being a cosmonaut?

[User] [Laughter] It just happened. I never planned to spend time in small volumes like a tank or on orbiting, but it just happened. Except for this time when I was in the tank and on orbit, I used to spend a lot of time with people, surrounded by a lot of people.

[Assistant] We've certainly enjoyed talking to you today and having you share stories with us.

[User] Well, thank you very much. I believe this will be just the beginning for your story. You can add it and provide more details if you arrange interviews with the people I mentioned to you at the beginning. These people, on the Russian side, they were working in parallel and they were partners of people we were talking about on the American side. I am director of this program, but I always base myself on the experience and knowledge of the people. They are a key role, people in the program, and they play the main role in all this. I would like them to participate in this project, and I would like you to interview them if possible. I'm ready to help you to organize these interviews.

[Assistant] That's one thing that Frank Culbertson has said, is what a team effort this whole project has been, and he stresses that a lot. So we appreciate how you couldn't have done it without your team either. And we want to speak to the entire team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughter] It just happened. I never planned to spend time in small volumes like a tank or on orbiting, but it just happened. Except for this time when I was in the tank and on orbit, I used to spend a lot of time with people, surrounded by a lot of people.

[Assistant] We've certainly enjoyed talking to you today and having you share stories with us.

[User] Well, thank you very much. I believe this will be just the beginning for your story. You can add it and provide more details if you arrange interviews with the people I mentioned to you at the beginning. These people, on the Russian side, they were working in parallel and they were partners of people we were talking about on the American side. I am director of this program, but I always base myself on the experience and knowledge of the people. They are a key role, people in the program, and they play the main role in all this. I would like them to participate in this project, and I would like you to interview them if possible. I'm ready to help you to organize these interviews.

[Assistant] That's one thing that Frank Culbertson has said, is what a team effort this whole project has been, and he stresses that a lot. So we appreciate how you couldn't have done it without your team either. And we want to speak to the entire team.

[User] One person that is very important, maybe this person can be very important, but it needs determining. Anybody can be replaced, but the team, the nucleus, determines the program.

[Assistant] In your career, is there one person that has meant the most to you, either as a hero or as a co worker?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, thank you very much. I believe this will be just the beginning for your story. You can add it and provide more details if you arrange interviews with the people I mentioned to you at the beginning. These people, on the Russian side, they were working in parallel and they were partners of people we were talking about on the American side. I am director of this program, but I always base myself on the experience and knowledge of the people. They are a key role, people in the program, and they play the main role in all this. I would like them to participate in this project, and I would like you to interview them if possible. I'm ready to help you to organize these interviews.

[Assistant] That's one thing that Frank Culbertson has said, is what a team effort this whole project has been, and he stresses that a lot. So we appreciate how you couldn't have done it without your team either. And we want to speak to the entire team.

[User] One person that is very important, maybe this person can be very important, but it needs determining. Anybody can be replaced, but the team, the nucleus, determines the program.

[Assistant] In your career, is there one person that has meant the most to you, either as a hero or as a co worker?

[User] [Tape interruption] People always try to solve. They should not postpone the decision, but they try to resolve the issue. I'm very grateful to all the people who participated in this program, and I consider all the people were very responsible and worked very well.

[Assistant] Did you help choose them, the team members, or was it because of the jobs that they held already that they were part of the team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One person that is very important, maybe this person can be very important, but it needs determining. Anybody can be replaced, but the team, the nucleus, determines the program.

[Assistant] In your career, is there one person that has meant the most to you, either as a hero or as a co worker?

[User] [Tape interruption] People always try to solve. They should not postpone the decision, but they try to resolve the issue. I'm very grateful to all the people who participated in this program, and I consider all the people were very responsible and worked very well.

[Assistant] Did you help choose them, the team members, or was it because of the jobs that they held already that they were part of the team?

[User] At the time we didn't have any teams, any divisions, any leads of the divisions. For sure we had to select people. I tried to find people who had very good business abilities and qualities, and I wanted to find people with who I would be working very comfortably. With most of them I had been working for more than twenty years, and that's why I didn't have any difficulty in assigning these people. This are not just casual people who just showed up and I assigned them. Those people demonstrated that they can work and they can work very successfully. That's why they were assigned as managers.

[Assistant] Do these people go on to the International Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Tape interruption] People always try to solve. They should not postpone the decision, but they try to resolve the issue. I'm very grateful to all the people who participated in this program, and I consider all the people were very responsible and worked very well.

[Assistant] Did you help choose them, the team members, or was it because of the jobs that they held already that they were part of the team?

[User] At the time we didn't have any teams, any divisions, any leads of the divisions. For sure we had to select people. I tried to find people who had very good business abilities and qualities, and I wanted to find people with who I would be working very comfortably. With most of them I had been working for more than twenty years, and that's why I didn't have any difficulty in assigning these people. This are not just casual people who just showed up and I assigned them. Those people demonstrated that they can work and they can work very successfully. That's why they were assigned as managers.

[Assistant] Do these people go on to the International Space Station?

[User] For sure. They're working right now for it. We are trying to maintain continuity of all the people who were working successfully on the first phase, will continue working on the second phase, those who will be capable of dong this, taking into consideration their age and their health conditions.

[Assistant] Will the Mir be abandoned eventually, and what will then happen? Will it crash to the Earth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time we didn't have any teams, any divisions, any leads of the divisions. For sure we had to select people. I tried to find people who had very good business abilities and qualities, and I wanted to find people with who I would be working very comfortably. With most of them I had been working for more than twenty years, and that's why I didn't have any difficulty in assigning these people. This are not just casual people who just showed up and I assigned them. Those people demonstrated that they can work and they can work very successfully. That's why they were assigned as managers.

[Assistant] Do these people go on to the International Space Station?

[User] For sure. They're working right now for it. We are trying to maintain continuity of all the people who were working successfully on the first phase, will continue working on the second phase, those who will be capable of dong this, taking into consideration their age and their health conditions.

[Assistant] Will the Mir be abandoned eventually, and what will then happen? Will it crash to the Earth?

[User] We are not planning to abandon it.

[Assistant] Maybe that was a poor term. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For sure. They're working right now for it. We are trying to maintain continuity of all the people who were working successfully on the first phase, will continue working on the second phase, those who will be capable of dong this, taking into consideration their age and their health conditions.

[Assistant] Will the Mir be abandoned eventually, and what will then happen? Will it crash to the Earth?

[User] We are not planning to abandon it.

[Assistant] Maybe that was a poor term. Go ahead.

[User] We are trying to orbit it according to our plan. We need to decide when. It is not clear when we'll do it. It will depend on when we'll have FGB [Functional Group Block] and service module on orbit. These are two key modules of International Space Station. Once FGB and service module are on orbit, then we can start working on Mir deorbiting.

[Assistant] So it will stay manned until you have your modules on station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are not planning to abandon it.

[Assistant] Maybe that was a poor term. Go ahead.

[User] We are trying to orbit it according to our plan. We need to decide when. It is not clear when we'll do it. It will depend on when we'll have FGB [Functional Group Block] and service module on orbit. These are two key modules of International Space Station. Once FGB and service module are on orbit, then we can start working on Mir deorbiting.

[Assistant] So it will stay manned until you have your modules on station?

[User] I believe we'll not abandon it, because taking into consideration the age of the station, it would be very difficult for it to fly alone, and we'll try to maintain people there as long as possible. The age of the station requires permanent attendance.

[Assistant] Well, thanks again, for sharing your stories with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are trying to orbit it according to our plan. We need to decide when. It is not clear when we'll do it. It will depend on when we'll have FGB [Functional Group Block] and service module on orbit. These are two key modules of International Space Station. Once FGB and service module are on orbit, then we can start working on Mir deorbiting.

[Assistant] So it will stay manned until you have your modules on station?

[User] I believe we'll not abandon it, because taking into consideration the age of the station, it would be very difficult for it to fly alone, and we'll try to maintain people there as long as possible. The age of the station requires permanent attendance.

[Assistant] Well, thanks again, for sharing your stories with us.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And what's your favorite beer? I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe we'll not abandon it, because taking into consideration the age of the station, it would be very difficult for it to fly alone, and we'll try to maintain people there as long as possible. The age of the station requires permanent attendance.

[Assistant] Well, thanks again, for sharing your stories with us.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And what's your favorite beer? I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?

[User] I don't like beer very much. Not very often.

[Assistant] Would you please tell him that we look forward to speaking with him after he returns, and once again we offer our sincere apologies. Thank you for your advice on how to do it better.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And what's your favorite beer? I always ask this question. What's your favorite beer?

[User] I don't like beer very much. Not very often.

[Assistant] Would you please tell him that we look forward to speaking with him after he returns, and once again we offer our sincere apologies. Thank you for your advice on how to do it better.

[User] I believe if you have questions, not very big questions which will not require a lot of time, we will be able to find time and arrange another interview. I believe we'll be able to see once you're done with your work, and I would like to hear what I have told you. I believe Mr. Culbertson knows where I can find you.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. Tell him we look forward to talking with him soon, for him to schedule the interviews.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I finished high school here. I moved here and did my sophomore year on. When I graduated, my dad said, “Well, now it’s time to get a job.” I hadn’t even thought about that, I thought I was going on to school. They were hiring on the Base, so I took the civil service exam and I was placed at NACA. I was a clerk-typist in the Instrument Service Branch. I worked there for almost six years, and then stopped before my first child was born. During that time we met and worked together in the same office.

[Assistant] Where were you living? You were living in the Lancaster area?

[User] Yes. I was carpooling.

[Assistant] Who were you carpooling with, other women? Or were there other people?

[User] I started out with my dad, because he was working on the Base also. Then I ended up with just different fellows. I was always in the carpool with all men, because that’s who lived near where I was. We carpooled. I guess the interesting thing about that was we used to just go down Division Street and drive directly across the Rosamond Dry Lake to pick up the road onto the base. Just everybody was out there, it would be 20 cars wide, and we all had an entry place and an exit place. That was the short cut, made the ride 15, 20 minutes shorter.

[Assistant] You just take off right across the lake.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was carpooling.

[Assistant] Who were you carpooling with, other women? Or were there other people?

[User] I started out with my dad, because he was working on the Base also. Then I ended up with just different fellows. I was always in the carpool with all men, because that’s who lived near where I was. We carpooled. I guess the interesting thing about that was we used to just go down Division Street and drive directly across the Rosamond Dry Lake to pick up the road onto the base. Just everybody was out there, it would be 20 cars wide, and we all had an entry place and an exit place. That was the short cut, made the ride 15, 20 minutes shorter.

[Assistant] You just take off right across the lake.

[User] I didn’t have to commute because I lived on the Base. My dad was a military man, so I came to the Base when I was 12 years old. We had lived in a whole bunch of different places—in fact we were in Panama when the war [World War II] broke out. They made the families come back and ultimately we ended up out here. I’ve never left.

[Assistant] That is interesting, growing up in a military environment, and then continuing that with your career. It probably felt very comfortable to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started out with my dad, because he was working on the Base also. Then I ended up with just different fellows. I was always in the carpool with all men, because that’s who lived near where I was. We carpooled. I guess the interesting thing about that was we used to just go down Division Street and drive directly across the Rosamond Dry Lake to pick up the road onto the base. Just everybody was out there, it would be 20 cars wide, and we all had an entry place and an exit place. That was the short cut, made the ride 15, 20 minutes shorter.

[Assistant] You just take off right across the lake.

[User] I didn’t have to commute because I lived on the Base. My dad was a military man, so I came to the Base when I was 12 years old. We had lived in a whole bunch of different places—in fact we were in Panama when the war [World War II] broke out. They made the families come back and ultimately we ended up out here. I’ve never left.

[Assistant] That is interesting, growing up in a military environment, and then continuing that with your career. It probably felt very comfortable to you.

[User] Yes, well, I was acquainted with the aeronautical work, just because it was a military base. I didn’t realize it at the time, but NACA guys were there from Langley, and they were working on breaking the sound barrier. I really wasn’t too much aware of that in high school, until I got my job. I knew it was going on, but I was just a kid.

[Assistant] You weren’t really paying attention to the historical aspects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t have to commute because I lived on the Base. My dad was a military man, so I came to the Base when I was 12 years old. We had lived in a whole bunch of different places—in fact we were in Panama when the war [World War II] broke out. They made the families come back and ultimately we ended up out here. I’ve never left.

[Assistant] That is interesting, growing up in a military environment, and then continuing that with your career. It probably felt very comfortable to you.

[User] Yes, well, I was acquainted with the aeronautical work, just because it was a military base. I didn’t realize it at the time, but NACA guys were there from Langley, and they were working on breaking the sound barrier. I really wasn’t too much aware of that in high school, until I got my job. I knew it was going on, but I was just a kid.

[Assistant] You weren’t really paying attention to the historical aspects?

[User] Yes. I actually got to sit in the seat of the [Bell] X-1 that broke the sound barrier. My dad worked in the hangar. He took me to work one day. The X-1 was in the hangar, and they let a 12-year-old go over and sit in it, or 13-year-old. It had the old Flying Wings [Northrop YB-49]. Have you ever seen the old Flying Wings that were before? They were in there. This was before I even got in there, and I was just a kid.

[Assistant] Do you think that piqued your interest though, being around it all the time? Did you ever think about doing anything other than aeronautics or working in this field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, well, I was acquainted with the aeronautical work, just because it was a military base. I didn’t realize it at the time, but NACA guys were there from Langley, and they were working on breaking the sound barrier. I really wasn’t too much aware of that in high school, until I got my job. I knew it was going on, but I was just a kid.

[Assistant] You weren’t really paying attention to the historical aspects?

[User] Yes. I actually got to sit in the seat of the [Bell] X-1 that broke the sound barrier. My dad worked in the hangar. He took me to work one day. The X-1 was in the hangar, and they let a 12-year-old go over and sit in it, or 13-year-old. It had the old Flying Wings [Northrop YB-49]. Have you ever seen the old Flying Wings that were before? They were in there. This was before I even got in there, and I was just a kid.

[Assistant] Do you think that piqued your interest though, being around it all the time? Did you ever think about doing anything other than aeronautics or working in this field?

[User] Oh yes, I hadn’t thought about it, I had not really zeroed in on it. I was going to be an engineer, that’s why I went to UCLA. I was interested in scientific things. I guess when my dad got that first job for me at NACA, I hadn’t decided this is where I’m going to be. It was just natural to go back there after school, because I was living on the Base again. My dad was still a military man, so I could still live on the Base. It wasn’t till my dad died that we had to move off the Base because my mother was a civilian.

[Assistant] Where did you move to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I actually got to sit in the seat of the [Bell] X-1 that broke the sound barrier. My dad worked in the hangar. He took me to work one day. The X-1 was in the hangar, and they let a 12-year-old go over and sit in it, or 13-year-old. It had the old Flying Wings [Northrop YB-49]. Have you ever seen the old Flying Wings that were before? They were in there. This was before I even got in there, and I was just a kid.

[Assistant] Do you think that piqued your interest though, being around it all the time? Did you ever think about doing anything other than aeronautics or working in this field?

[User] Oh yes, I hadn’t thought about it, I had not really zeroed in on it. I was going to be an engineer, that’s why I went to UCLA. I was interested in scientific things. I guess when my dad got that first job for me at NACA, I hadn’t decided this is where I’m going to be. It was just natural to go back there after school, because I was living on the Base again. My dad was still a military man, so I could still live on the Base. It wasn’t till my dad died that we had to move off the Base because my mother was a civilian.

[Assistant] Where did you move to?

[User] We moved to North Edwards, which is on the other side of the Base. My mother wanted to stay close there, so she just moved to Kern County on the north side of the Base, North Edwards over there, a little small community. She bought a house. Then later I lived there with her, and that was a short commute in to the Base, until I met Nona, and we married and moved to Lancaster.

[Assistant] Mrs. Curley, you mentioned that your father worked on the Base. What did he do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I hadn’t thought about it, I had not really zeroed in on it. I was going to be an engineer, that’s why I went to UCLA. I was interested in scientific things. I guess when my dad got that first job for me at NACA, I hadn’t decided this is where I’m going to be. It was just natural to go back there after school, because I was living on the Base again. My dad was still a military man, so I could still live on the Base. It wasn’t till my dad died that we had to move off the Base because my mother was a civilian.

[Assistant] Where did you move to?

[User] We moved to North Edwards, which is on the other side of the Base. My mother wanted to stay close there, so she just moved to Kern County on the north side of the Base, North Edwards over there, a little small community. She bought a house. Then later I lived there with her, and that was a short commute in to the Base, until I met Nona, and we married and moved to Lancaster.

[Assistant] Mrs. Curley, you mentioned that your father worked on the Base. What did he do?

[User] He was in construction. He did a lot of the building, and he was involved in a big hangar project. Just down the taxiway from NASA.

[Assistant] Talk about when you both started working, you came back to that area, that’s where you were working. During that time period there weren’t as many women as there are now working at NASA Centers. What was the social aspect of that time period? Were there organized things for you to take part in, picnics, dances, those sort of things? How did you spend your time during the day? Did you go to lunch together? Was there a cafeteria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We moved to North Edwards, which is on the other side of the Base. My mother wanted to stay close there, so she just moved to Kern County on the north side of the Base, North Edwards over there, a little small community. She bought a house. Then later I lived there with her, and that was a short commute in to the Base, until I met Nona, and we married and moved to Lancaster.

[Assistant] Mrs. Curley, you mentioned that your father worked on the Base. What did he do?

[User] He was in construction. He did a lot of the building, and he was involved in a big hangar project. Just down the taxiway from NASA.

[Assistant] Talk about when you both started working, you came back to that area, that’s where you were working. During that time period there weren’t as many women as there are now working at NASA Centers. What was the social aspect of that time period? Were there organized things for you to take part in, picnics, dances, those sort of things? How did you spend your time during the day? Did you go to lunch together? Was there a cafeteria?

[User] Yes, they had a place, a cafeteria to eat, they had a place to eat. They had activities. They would have summer picnics that people would go to. Actually they had a bowling league at one time. But it’s hard for me to remember whether it was NACA or NASA. But there were periods of time. Well, it was about the time we got married I was bowling. There were bowling leagues. I actually played on the facility basketball team. They had a basketball team that played in town in the town league. All my good friends, the fellows, were all guys I played basketball with. Neil [A.] Armstrong was there.

[Assistant] Did he play basketball?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in construction. He did a lot of the building, and he was involved in a big hangar project. Just down the taxiway from NASA.

[Assistant] Talk about when you both started working, you came back to that area, that’s where you were working. During that time period there weren’t as many women as there are now working at NASA Centers. What was the social aspect of that time period? Were there organized things for you to take part in, picnics, dances, those sort of things? How did you spend your time during the day? Did you go to lunch together? Was there a cafeteria?

[User] Yes, they had a place, a cafeteria to eat, they had a place to eat. They had activities. They would have summer picnics that people would go to. Actually they had a bowling league at one time. But it’s hard for me to remember whether it was NACA or NASA. But there were periods of time. Well, it was about the time we got married I was bowling. There were bowling leagues. I actually played on the facility basketball team. They had a basketball team that played in town in the town league. All my good friends, the fellows, were all guys I played basketball with. Neil [A.] Armstrong was there.

[Assistant] Did he play basketball?

[User] Yes. He wasn’t very good.

[Assistant] You said you carpooled mainly with men, but did you have a group of women friends that you met or that you did things with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they had a place, a cafeteria to eat, they had a place to eat. They had activities. They would have summer picnics that people would go to. Actually they had a bowling league at one time. But it’s hard for me to remember whether it was NACA or NASA. But there were periods of time. Well, it was about the time we got married I was bowling. There were bowling leagues. I actually played on the facility basketball team. They had a basketball team that played in town in the town league. All my good friends, the fellows, were all guys I played basketball with. Neil [A.] Armstrong was there.

[Assistant] Did he play basketball?

[User] Yes. He wasn’t very good.

[Assistant] You said you carpooled mainly with men, but did you have a group of women friends that you met or that you did things with?

[User] Not really. I knew the women in the building. We would have to go to each other with questions with secretarial duties from time to time. I didn’t socialize with them. There just really wasn’t time for it I guess. The men I rode with, most of them were men from World War II, they were middle-aged men. They were always very respectful. We had some really interesting conversations. They wouldn’t really talk about war experiences, but they would give you background on how they did and that type of thing. I really wasn’t involved in the social activities. Even after we were married he would have lunch with the fellows, and I don’t even remember what I did, or where I went. Probably at my desk. But we were careful not to socialize in the office.

[Assistant] Did you have any awareness of what NACA was doing before you started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He wasn’t very good.

[Assistant] You said you carpooled mainly with men, but did you have a group of women friends that you met or that you did things with?

[User] Not really. I knew the women in the building. We would have to go to each other with questions with secretarial duties from time to time. I didn’t socialize with them. There just really wasn’t time for it I guess. The men I rode with, most of them were men from World War II, they were middle-aged men. They were always very respectful. We had some really interesting conversations. They wouldn’t really talk about war experiences, but they would give you background on how they did and that type of thing. I really wasn’t involved in the social activities. Even after we were married he would have lunch with the fellows, and I don’t even remember what I did, or where I went. Probably at my desk. But we were careful not to socialize in the office.

[Assistant] Did you have any awareness of what NACA was doing before you started?

[User] I had never heard of it. When I went in there, it was completely new to me, learning the aeronautical language. I took business courses in high school, so I had no background in this. It was very interesting though. My particular job was just the regular filing and typing, that type of thing, but the work of the Center was very interesting. I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] As far as learning that aeronautical language, was there any type of training when you were here, when you first started, or information that they gave you so that you could come up to speed on things that you needed to know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I knew the women in the building. We would have to go to each other with questions with secretarial duties from time to time. I didn’t socialize with them. There just really wasn’t time for it I guess. The men I rode with, most of them were men from World War II, they were middle-aged men. They were always very respectful. We had some really interesting conversations. They wouldn’t really talk about war experiences, but they would give you background on how they did and that type of thing. I really wasn’t involved in the social activities. Even after we were married he would have lunch with the fellows, and I don’t even remember what I did, or where I went. Probably at my desk. But we were careful not to socialize in the office.

[Assistant] Did you have any awareness of what NACA was doing before you started?

[User] I had never heard of it. When I went in there, it was completely new to me, learning the aeronautical language. I took business courses in high school, so I had no background in this. It was very interesting though. My particular job was just the regular filing and typing, that type of thing, but the work of the Center was very interesting. I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] As far as learning that aeronautical language, was there any type of training when you were here, when you first started, or information that they gave you so that you could come up to speed on things that you needed to know?

[User] I don’t think so. I think it was learn as you go. These new words were popping up. You just picked them up as you went on.

[Assistant] Did you work in a pool of other women, or did you work individually?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had never heard of it. When I went in there, it was completely new to me, learning the aeronautical language. I took business courses in high school, so I had no background in this. It was very interesting though. My particular job was just the regular filing and typing, that type of thing, but the work of the Center was very interesting. I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] As far as learning that aeronautical language, was there any type of training when you were here, when you first started, or information that they gave you so that you could come up to speed on things that you needed to know?

[User] I don’t think so. I think it was learn as you go. These new words were popping up. You just picked them up as you went on.

[Assistant] Did you work in a pool of other women, or did you work individually?

[User]
No. I was in the Calibration Office, and it was all fellows. Then later on there was a woman who came to work in calibration, so there was another lady in the office. My desk was in the office with all of the calibrators. Then I had business to do with the Repair Shop and the Instrument Construction Shop, so I had associations with those men. I did their typing and their filing also.

Yes, there were three shops together in the same branch.

[Assistant] Was this Instrumentation and Calibration? Was that the branch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. I think it was learn as you go. These new words were popping up. You just picked them up as you went on.

[Assistant] Did you work in a pool of other women, or did you work individually?

[User]
No. I was in the Calibration Office, and it was all fellows. Then later on there was a woman who came to work in calibration, so there was another lady in the office. My desk was in the office with all of the calibrators. Then I had business to do with the Repair Shop and the Instrument Construction Shop, so I had associations with those men. I did their typing and their filing also.

Yes, there were three shops together in the same branch.

[Assistant] Was this Instrumentation and Calibration? Was that the branch?

[User]
Yes. There was a group of us that did calibration, and then there were people, construction, they built things, like a machine shop. Then there were instrument repair guys, so they would repair the instruments, and we would calibrate them. You actually worked on the data stuff.

A little bit. That was a short time.

Yes. See, we had to prepare the calibrations that they would use to develop the test data. The instruments we calibrated went into the vehicles that were being tested. We had to have calibrations like big curves so when they took the data they could determine how fast they went and how high they were and all those things.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were learning those skills starting when you were pretty young, and then when you came back was that still just an informal learning from people that had been there before? Did you have any type of formal training on site to help you learn those skills?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. I was in the Calibration Office, and it was all fellows. Then later on there was a woman who came to work in calibration, so there was another lady in the office. My desk was in the office with all of the calibrators. Then I had business to do with the Repair Shop and the Instrument Construction Shop, so I had associations with those men. I did their typing and their filing also.

Yes, there were three shops together in the same branch.

[Assistant] Was this Instrumentation and Calibration? Was that the branch?

[User]
Yes. There was a group of us that did calibration, and then there were people, construction, they built things, like a machine shop. Then there were instrument repair guys, so they would repair the instruments, and we would calibrate them. You actually worked on the data stuff.

A little bit. That was a short time.

Yes. See, we had to prepare the calibrations that they would use to develop the test data. The instruments we calibrated went into the vehicles that were being tested. We had to have calibrations like big curves so when they took the data they could determine how fast they went and how high they were and all those things.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were learning those skills starting when you were pretty young, and then when you came back was that still just an informal learning from people that had been there before? Did you have any type of formal training on site to help you learn those skills?

[User] There were experienced calibration people there. They would show you what to do, and they would let me do the more simple stuff to begin with, then you just work up. The leadership were almost all Langley people.

[Assistant] Are there any names that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. There was a group of us that did calibration, and then there were people, construction, they built things, like a machine shop. Then there were instrument repair guys, so they would repair the instruments, and we would calibrate them. You actually worked on the data stuff.

A little bit. That was a short time.

Yes. See, we had to prepare the calibrations that they would use to develop the test data. The instruments we calibrated went into the vehicles that were being tested. We had to have calibrations like big curves so when they took the data they could determine how fast they went and how high they were and all those things.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were learning those skills starting when you were pretty young, and then when you came back was that still just an informal learning from people that had been there before? Did you have any type of formal training on site to help you learn those skills?

[User] There were experienced calibration people there. They would show you what to do, and they would let me do the more simple stuff to begin with, then you just work up. The leadership were almost all Langley people.

[Assistant] Are there any names that you remember?

[User] Oh yes, my boss was Ralph [M.] Pernula, and his boss was Russ [L. Russell] Mills, who was her boss as well. Ralph was over my calibration group, and then there were two other guys over the other groups. Russ Mills was over us. I never got an engineering degree, but Russ Mills, my boss—well, above my boss, my leader was Ralph—he encouraged me to take the civil service test, and they gave me an engineer’s rating. So I ended up, I had to take a cut in pay, but I think I was a GS-6 [Government Schedule pay scale] calibrator, but when I took the test they would only approve me for a GS-5 engineer. Russ Mills said, and I realized, it was the best thing to do, because I would have been more limited as a technician than I would be as an engineer.

[Assistant] You could move on from there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were experienced calibration people there. They would show you what to do, and they would let me do the more simple stuff to begin with, then you just work up. The leadership were almost all Langley people.

[Assistant] Are there any names that you remember?

[User] Oh yes, my boss was Ralph [M.] Pernula, and his boss was Russ [L. Russell] Mills, who was her boss as well. Ralph was over my calibration group, and then there were two other guys over the other groups. Russ Mills was over us. I never got an engineering degree, but Russ Mills, my boss—well, above my boss, my leader was Ralph—he encouraged me to take the civil service test, and they gave me an engineer’s rating. So I ended up, I had to take a cut in pay, but I think I was a GS-6 [Government Schedule pay scale] calibrator, but when I took the test they would only approve me for a GS-5 engineer. Russ Mills said, and I realized, it was the best thing to do, because I would have been more limited as a technician than I would be as an engineer.

[Assistant] You could move on from there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful that they gave you that opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, my boss was Ralph [M.] Pernula, and his boss was Russ [L. Russell] Mills, who was her boss as well. Ralph was over my calibration group, and then there were two other guys over the other groups. Russ Mills was over us. I never got an engineering degree, but Russ Mills, my boss—well, above my boss, my leader was Ralph—he encouraged me to take the civil service test, and they gave me an engineer’s rating. So I ended up, I had to take a cut in pay, but I think I was a GS-6 [Government Schedule pay scale] calibrator, but when I took the test they would only approve me for a GS-5 engineer. Russ Mills said, and I realized, it was the best thing to do, because I would have been more limited as a technician than I would be as an engineer.

[Assistant] You could move on from there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful that they gave you that opportunity.

[User] Yes. In fact years later one of the personnel directors came to me and I guess he raised the issue I didn’t have a college degree, and somebody, one of my bosses, had to go and talk to him about it doesn’t make any difference. This is the way it worked. I guess he thought I shouldn’t be where I was or something. It might have been a place where I was getting a promotion maybe. When you get to GS-11, 12, it gets a little bit harder in your job description to move up.

[Assistant] When you started everything was still out on the South Base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful that they gave you that opportunity.

[User] Yes. In fact years later one of the personnel directors came to me and I guess he raised the issue I didn’t have a college degree, and somebody, one of my bosses, had to go and talk to him about it doesn’t make any difference. This is the way it worked. I guess he thought I shouldn’t be where I was or something. It might have been a place where I was getting a promotion maybe. When you get to GS-11, 12, it gets a little bit harder in your job description to move up.

[Assistant] When you started everything was still out on the South Base?

[User] South Base. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, just talk about that for a minute, and the working environment out there and what that was like, and then when everything got built and moved to the Main Base in 1954. If you want to just talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In fact years later one of the personnel directors came to me and I guess he raised the issue I didn’t have a college degree, and somebody, one of my bosses, had to go and talk to him about it doesn’t make any difference. This is the way it worked. I guess he thought I shouldn’t be where I was or something. It might have been a place where I was getting a promotion maybe. When you get to GS-11, 12, it gets a little bit harder in your job description to move up.

[Assistant] When you started everything was still out on the South Base?

[User] South Base. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, just talk about that for a minute, and the working environment out there and what that was like, and then when everything got built and moved to the Main Base in 1954. If you want to just talk about that.

[User] Yes, well, actually I lived on South Base.

[Assistant] Did you live in the area for the single employees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] South Base. That’s right.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, just talk about that for a minute, and the working environment out there and what that was like, and then when everything got built and moved to the Main Base in 1954. If you want to just talk about that.

[User] Yes, well, actually I lived on South Base.

[Assistant] Did you live in the area for the single employees?

[User] The South Gate used to come in by an old hospital area, and then it would go down by the runway and where the South Base was. They made that hospital part of it into housing for military people, because they didn’t have any housing on Base. When my dad first came here, we had to live in Lancaster for a year. So I went to grammar school in Lancaster. And then he moved us to this hospital area, and it was right inside the South Gate that went down to the Base.\n\n I was well acquainted with it, that’s where the theater was and the gym and the social club. I knew all that, I had been living there for six years. The first year I was there, our lab was actually in the hangar. NACA had a hangar on the old runway. On the side of the hangar, you know how they have offices and shops along the side? We were in there. I worked in there. If you went out the door, you were in where the airplanes were.\n\n Then they moved the Cal Lab across the road and down a ways into a building that had the old garage in it. The mechanic that took care of their cars was in part of the building with a garage and then the rest of the building was broke up into three offices for the Cal Lab and the repair and the construction shop and an office in the little building. It was just across the road from the runway. We could go out the door and look over and see planes landing on the runway. Then we moved to the new building when they built the new runway.

[Assistant] Were you still living on the South Base when they built the new one and everybody moved to the main building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] I was wondering since you worked with Langley people, and then you had people like you that were here already, working here, how that worked, and how that interaction was between—if you noticed those differences.

[User] Yes, I don’t know what it was like at Langley, but I don’t think there was that structure you talked about. The fellows that were above me to start with were Langley guys. They seemed comfortable with it too. These people, we were good friends, a small community we lived in.

[Assistant] During that time Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the Director. You both I’m sure have experience with different things that he did and his style of being a Director. We’ve heard him described a lot of different ways, and always in glowing terms. Do you have any stories or any anecdotes or any thoughts about his directorship?

[User] No. I didn’t know him that well.

[Assistant] Do you feel that as the Directors changed over time, even after NASA, did things change at the Center depending on who was the Director? Was there a different feeling as time went on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I don’t know what it was like at Langley, but I don’t think there was that structure you talked about. The fellows that were above me to start with were Langley guys. They seemed comfortable with it too. These people, we were good friends, a small community we lived in.

[Assistant] During that time Walt [Walter C.] Williams was the Director. You both I’m sure have experience with different things that he did and his style of being a Director. We’ve heard him described a lot of different ways, and always in glowing terms. Do you have any stories or any anecdotes or any thoughts about his directorship?

[User] No. I didn’t know him that well.

[Assistant] Do you feel that as the Directors changed over time, even after NASA, did things change at the Center depending on who was the Director? Was there a different feeling as time went on?

[User] I guess there were some Directors that did something a little different. Later on, they began to get into people that were more from the space program. Early on they were more aeronautical people, and I know Walt Williams went from that to space. Paul [F.] Bikle was a glider guy. He held the records. Then later on you had guys like Dave [David R.] Scott. You started getting astronauts. Yes, there was some change. The organization gets bigger. Even though I didn’t know Walt Williams very well, I think he knew who I was. Then later I got more into management, so I did have to deal more with the fellows that were up higher.

[Assistant] You mentioned reports, like some of the engineers would write reports. Did you ever help them on any of the reports, or have any dealings with any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I didn’t know him that well.

[Assistant] Do you feel that as the Directors changed over time, even after NASA, did things change at the Center depending on who was the Director? Was there a different feeling as time went on?

[User] I guess there were some Directors that did something a little different. Later on, they began to get into people that were more from the space program. Early on they were more aeronautical people, and I know Walt Williams went from that to space. Paul [F.] Bikle was a glider guy. He held the records. Then later on you had guys like Dave [David R.] Scott. You started getting astronauts. Yes, there was some change. The organization gets bigger. Even though I didn’t know Walt Williams very well, I think he knew who I was. Then later I got more into management, so I did have to deal more with the fellows that were up higher.

[Assistant] You mentioned reports, like some of the engineers would write reports. Did you ever help them on any of the reports, or have any dealings with any of that?

[User] Not very often. I knew the fellows doing that, in fact once we were married I carpooled with Bob [Robert W.] Kempel, and he did a lot of the reporting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do any work as far as people doing reports in that area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess there were some Directors that did something a little different. Later on, they began to get into people that were more from the space program. Early on they were more aeronautical people, and I know Walt Williams went from that to space. Paul [F.] Bikle was a glider guy. He held the records. Then later on you had guys like Dave [David R.] Scott. You started getting astronauts. Yes, there was some change. The organization gets bigger. Even though I didn’t know Walt Williams very well, I think he knew who I was. Then later I got more into management, so I did have to deal more with the fellows that were up higher.

[Assistant] You mentioned reports, like some of the engineers would write reports. Did you ever help them on any of the reports, or have any dealings with any of that?

[User] Not very often. I knew the fellows doing that, in fact once we were married I carpooled with Bob [Robert W.] Kempel, and he did a lot of the reporting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do any work as far as people doing reports in that area?

[User] I remember I typed a lot of papers, but they wouldn’t have been on that level. They were probably coming from just our Service Branch. That’s where I ran into the terminology, strange words popping up you’re trying to type and you’re not familiar with. It always slows you down.\n\n Oh, one thing I do remember is shortly after I went to work there I was given an electric typewriter. Up until then it was manual. That was the first time I had ever worked with an electric typewriter. It was special.

[Assistant] That is really early on for electric typewriters.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very often. I knew the fellows doing that, in fact once we were married I carpooled with Bob [Robert W.] Kempel, and he did a lot of the reporting.

[Assistant] Did you ever have to do any work as far as people doing reports in that area?

[User] I remember I typed a lot of papers, but they wouldn’t have been on that level. They were probably coming from just our Service Branch. That’s where I ran into the terminology, strange words popping up you’re trying to type and you’re not familiar with. It always slows you down.\n\n Oh, one thing I do remember is shortly after I went to work there I was given an electric typewriter. Up until then it was manual. That was the first time I had ever worked with an electric typewriter. It was special.

[Assistant] That is really early on for electric typewriters.

[User] Yes, it was. That was pretty nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned too, the technology changed, even in the time you were there, technology was changing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember I typed a lot of papers, but they wouldn’t have been on that level. They were probably coming from just our Service Branch. That’s where I ran into the terminology, strange words popping up you’re trying to type and you’re not familiar with. It always slows you down.\n\n Oh, one thing I do remember is shortly after I went to work there I was given an electric typewriter. Up until then it was manual. That was the first time I had ever worked with an electric typewriter. It was special.

[Assistant] That is really early on for electric typewriters.

[User] Yes, it was. That was pretty nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned too, the technology changed, even in the time you were there, technology was changing.

[User] And the language changed again, when all the space terms started coming in.

[Assistant] What year did you get married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. That was pretty nice.

[Assistant] As you mentioned too, the technology changed, even in the time you were there, technology was changing.

[User] And the language changed again, when all the space terms started coming in.

[Assistant] What year did you get married?

[User] 1961.

[Assistant] You were married in ’61. You were actually married then after it became NASA. Let’s talk about that time in 1957 when the Sputnik [Russian satellite] launched. How aware were you in your day-to-day activities of that event, and was that something that you remember talking about at work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the language changed again, when all the space terms started coming in.

[Assistant] What year did you get married?

[User] 1961.

[Assistant] You were married in ’61. You were actually married then after it became NASA. Let’s talk about that time in 1957 when the Sputnik [Russian satellite] launched. How aware were you in your day-to-day activities of that event, and was that something that you remember talking about at work?

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes, it was talked about by everyone at the Center at the time. It was big news.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea of how that was going to affect your lives, as far as the work environment at that time? Were people already talking about moving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1961.

[Assistant] You were married in ’61. You were actually married then after it became NASA. Let’s talk about that time in 1957 when the Sputnik [Russian satellite] launched. How aware were you in your day-to-day activities of that event, and was that something that you remember talking about at work?

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes, it was talked about by everyone at the Center at the time. It was big news.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea of how that was going to affect your lives, as far as the work environment at that time? Were people already talking about moving?

[User] It took a year for the U.S. to respond. I don’t know whether we thought very much about what’s the U.S.’s response going to be, and the space organization. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Once the NACA did switch over in 1958, when that happened, how did that affect what was going on? Was it just one day you had a NACA badge, the next day you had a NASA badge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes, it was talked about by everyone at the Center at the time. It was big news.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea of how that was going to affect your lives, as far as the work environment at that time? Were people already talking about moving?

[User] It took a year for the U.S. to respond. I don’t know whether we thought very much about what’s the U.S.’s response going to be, and the space organization. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Once the NACA did switch over in 1958, when that happened, how did that affect what was going on? Was it just one day you had a NACA badge, the next day you had a NASA badge?

[User]
That’s right. I think you’re going to interview Don [Donald L.] Hallberg on Friday. I saw Don yesterday at a funeral.

He also worked in the office with us.

Don worked with us. He was my best friend then. We did everything together until we got married, and go off with your families. I was talking to him, and we were both of the opinion, well, one day we worked for NACA and the next day we worked for NASA.

[Assistant] It wasn’t any big difference as far as you were concerned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took a year for the U.S. to respond. I don’t know whether we thought very much about what’s the U.S.’s response going to be, and the space organization. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Once the NACA did switch over in 1958, when that happened, how did that affect what was going on? Was it just one day you had a NACA badge, the next day you had a NASA badge?

[User]
That’s right. I think you’re going to interview Don [Donald L.] Hallberg on Friday. I saw Don yesterday at a funeral.

He also worked in the office with us.

Don worked with us. He was my best friend then. We did everything together until we got married, and go off with your families. I was talking to him, and we were both of the opinion, well, one day we worked for NACA and the next day we worked for NASA.

[Assistant] It wasn’t any big difference as far as you were concerned.

[User] No. It took a while, I think, for things to grow and get bigger.

[Assistant] In those first days after NASA formed and then that focus was more towards spaceflight, a lot of the other Centers—of course then Johnson [Space Center, Houston, Texas, originally named Manned Spacecraft Center] came along and different Centers, that was their main focus, and that was pretty much it. But out here, there was still so much aeronautical research going on. I think there was also a lot of things happening I guess under the radar, like the Lifting Bodies and Paresev [Paraglider Research Vehicle] and the different things that they were looking at for returning from space that the public wasn’t as aware of what was going on out here. If you want to talk about that time period, and maybe some of the things that were going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They had enough money I think to put together something and fly. You could always watch it. All you had to do was go outside and watch it on the lake. They did most of that stuff on the dry lake.

[Assistant] There were a lot of the test pilots that were here, and the things that they were doing. Did you have any interaction with any of them? You mentioned Neil Armstrong not being very good at basketball. Some of the other test pilots, especially since it was such a dangerous thing, the research and what the pilots were doing, and there were accidents that happened, and you lost people. If you want to just talk about some of that, and how that affected the Center.

[User]
Yes. There were a lot of accidents. In fact I was somewhat associated with them, because I lived on the Base before then. A good friend of my father’s was killed in I think it was a [Boeing] B-47 [Stratojet] that crashed. It happened fairly regular. You go to the Base, all the streets are named for pilots that died in accidents. Yes, I can remember the day the [North American X]B-70 [Valkyrie] crashed. I’m trying to think of names now. I can’t think of his name.

Joe [Joseph A.] Walker?

Joe Walker was the one that was killed. But I’m thinking one of the other pilots got in a [Lockheed F-]104 [Starfighter] and went out to look at the site.

[Assistant] Don [Donald L.] Mallick, I think in his book was talking about going out and looking at the site. It was him and somebody else he was with [James “Doc” Roman].

[User] Yes. I remember being out in back of the Calibration Lab, I guess nobody had heard that they were all dead. I guess they assumed they were. The one pilot came back and landed, and he walked back up to the building. There was a group of us standing there, and he said, “He’s gone.”

[Assistant] I imagine that was very difficult, especially if you knew them socially and worked with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. There were a lot of accidents. In fact I was somewhat associated with them, because I lived on the Base before then. A good friend of my father’s was killed in I think it was a [Boeing] B-47 [Stratojet] that crashed. It happened fairly regular. You go to the Base, all the streets are named for pilots that died in accidents. Yes, I can remember the day the [North American X]B-70 [Valkyrie] crashed. I’m trying to think of names now. I can’t think of his name.

Joe [Joseph A.] Walker?

Joe Walker was the one that was killed. But I’m thinking one of the other pilots got in a [Lockheed F-]104 [Starfighter] and went out to look at the site.

[Assistant] Don [Donald L.] Mallick, I think in his book was talking about going out and looking at the site. It was him and somebody else he was with [James “Doc” Roman].

[User] Yes. I remember being out in back of the Calibration Lab, I guess nobody had heard that they were all dead. I guess they assumed they were. The one pilot came back and landed, and he walked back up to the building. There was a group of us standing there, and he said, “He’s gone.”

[Assistant] I imagine that was very difficult, especially if you knew them socially and worked with them.

[User] Well, there was an [North American] X-15 accident with an Air Force pilot [Michael J. Adams]. I did not know him. I did not know him. I didn’t know some of the Air Force pilots that flew in the X-15 Program.

[Assistant] You were talking about the X-1, when it first flew it was very hush-hush because the U.S. was trying to do something and they didn’t necessarily want anyone to know that they had broken the sound barrier at the beginning. With X-15, there were a lot of—in working so close with the Air Force—there were a lot of projects, programs that were classified or highly classified. Did you have to have any kind of special clearance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I remember being out in back of the Calibration Lab, I guess nobody had heard that they were all dead. I guess they assumed they were. The one pilot came back and landed, and he walked back up to the building. There was a group of us standing there, and he said, “He’s gone.”

[Assistant] I imagine that was very difficult, especially if you knew them socially and worked with them.

[User] Well, there was an [North American] X-15 accident with an Air Force pilot [Michael J. Adams]. I did not know him. I did not know him. I didn’t know some of the Air Force pilots that flew in the X-15 Program.

[Assistant] You were talking about the X-1, when it first flew it was very hush-hush because the U.S. was trying to do something and they didn’t necessarily want anyone to know that they had broken the sound barrier at the beginning. With X-15, there were a lot of—in working so close with the Air Force—there were a lot of projects, programs that were classified or highly classified. Did you have to have any kind of special clearance?

[User]
Yes, I did. I did. I don’t think you did, did you?

I had a secret clearance because of documents that I handled. Because I had to go sit up in the branch office from time to time to fill in, and I had to put documents in and out of the safe.

[Assistant] What was it like getting that clearance? Do you remember what that process was like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was an [North American] X-15 accident with an Air Force pilot [Michael J. Adams]. I did not know him. I did not know him. I didn’t know some of the Air Force pilots that flew in the X-15 Program.

[Assistant] You were talking about the X-1, when it first flew it was very hush-hush because the U.S. was trying to do something and they didn’t necessarily want anyone to know that they had broken the sound barrier at the beginning. With X-15, there were a lot of—in working so close with the Air Force—there were a lot of projects, programs that were classified or highly classified. Did you have to have any kind of special clearance?

[User]
Yes, I did. I did. I don’t think you did, did you?

I had a secret clearance because of documents that I handled. Because I had to go sit up in the branch office from time to time to fill in, and I had to put documents in and out of the safe.

[Assistant] What was it like getting that clearance? Do you remember what that process was like?

[User] I remember my neighbors wondered why they were being questioned about me. They would do some kind of investigation. I don’t know any details of it, really.

[Assistant] You had the same thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, I did. I did. I don’t think you did, did you?

I had a secret clearance because of documents that I handled. Because I had to go sit up in the branch office from time to time to fill in, and I had to put documents in and out of the safe.

[Assistant] What was it like getting that clearance? Do you remember what that process was like?

[User] I remember my neighbors wondered why they were being questioned about me. They would do some kind of investigation. I don’t know any details of it, really.

[Assistant] You had the same thing?

[User] Yes, in fact, I looked at it last night. I went and looked at some things, so I could refresh times and memories. I’ll show them to you. I even found my three job applications for ’54, ’56. I was only with NACA for four years, but it was over a period of six. Well, it was more than that, because I kept having breaks, one year, then a break, then two years and another break, then another year, and then we were into NASA.

[Assistant] During the earlier years at NACA do you remember or recall any visits from famous people, or people that would have been memorable visits to the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember my neighbors wondered why they were being questioned about me. They would do some kind of investigation. I don’t know any details of it, really.

[Assistant] You had the same thing?

[User] Yes, in fact, I looked at it last night. I went and looked at some things, so I could refresh times and memories. I’ll show them to you. I even found my three job applications for ’54, ’56. I was only with NACA for four years, but it was over a period of six. Well, it was more than that, because I kept having breaks, one year, then a break, then two years and another break, then another year, and then we were into NASA.

[Assistant] During the earlier years at NACA do you remember or recall any visits from famous people, or people that would have been memorable visits to the Center?

[User] The famous people who came of course was all with space. [President Lyndon B.] Johnson and [President Ronald] Reagan. I do remember at NACA a bunch of the leaders flew out, and it might have been for the new building, I’m trying to think what it was. They got us young guys in the Cal Lab, they sent us over to the Main Base, and the people that I guess were coming from Langley or someplace, they landed in an airplane, and we went to get their baggage. They sent us, we were the young guys at the bottom. They sent us to get the baggage and put it in a van and bring it from the runway. I don’t remember what the occasion was. I don’t remember who the people were, it must have been [Hugh L.] Dryden and some of those people I guess. These are important guys, everything has to be done just right. That’s the only thing I recall. I don’t remember them doing too much more, I don’t know.

[Assistant] In your job description you were moving man, baggage handler, calibration, you did a little bit of everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in fact, I looked at it last night. I went and looked at some things, so I could refresh times and memories. I’ll show them to you. I even found my three job applications for ’54, ’56. I was only with NACA for four years, but it was over a period of six. Well, it was more than that, because I kept having breaks, one year, then a break, then two years and another break, then another year, and then we were into NASA.

[Assistant] During the earlier years at NACA do you remember or recall any visits from famous people, or people that would have been memorable visits to the Center?

[User] The famous people who came of course was all with space. [President Lyndon B.] Johnson and [President Ronald] Reagan. I do remember at NACA a bunch of the leaders flew out, and it might have been for the new building, I’m trying to think what it was. They got us young guys in the Cal Lab, they sent us over to the Main Base, and the people that I guess were coming from Langley or someplace, they landed in an airplane, and we went to get their baggage. They sent us, we were the young guys at the bottom. They sent us to get the baggage and put it in a van and bring it from the runway. I don’t remember what the occasion was. I don’t remember who the people were, it must have been [Hugh L.] Dryden and some of those people I guess. These are important guys, everything has to be done just right. That’s the only thing I recall. I don’t remember them doing too much more, I don’t know.

[Assistant] In your job description you were moving man, baggage handler, calibration, you did a little bit of everything.

[User] Whatever was needed.

[Assistant] That’s right. That seemed to be a spirit, from what I’ve read. Out here especially in this area, at this Center, that it was pretty much whatever was needed, you did it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The famous people who came of course was all with space. [President Lyndon B.] Johnson and [President Ronald] Reagan. I do remember at NACA a bunch of the leaders flew out, and it might have been for the new building, I’m trying to think what it was. They got us young guys in the Cal Lab, they sent us over to the Main Base, and the people that I guess were coming from Langley or someplace, they landed in an airplane, and we went to get their baggage. They sent us, we were the young guys at the bottom. They sent us to get the baggage and put it in a van and bring it from the runway. I don’t remember what the occasion was. I don’t remember who the people were, it must have been [Hugh L.] Dryden and some of those people I guess. These are important guys, everything has to be done just right. That’s the only thing I recall. I don’t remember them doing too much more, I don’t know.

[Assistant] In your job description you were moving man, baggage handler, calibration, you did a little bit of everything.

[User] Whatever was needed.

[Assistant] That’s right. That seemed to be a spirit, from what I’ve read. Out here especially in this area, at this Center, that it was pretty much whatever was needed, you did it.

[User] The people I worked with were my best friends, we were together all the time when we were apart from work.

[Assistant] It was small too. There weren’t as many people here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whatever was needed.

[Assistant] That’s right. That seemed to be a spirit, from what I’ve read. Out here especially in this area, at this Center, that it was pretty much whatever was needed, you did it.

[User] The people I worked with were my best friends, we were together all the time when we were apart from work.

[Assistant] It was small too. There weren’t as many people here.

[User] Yes. We used to do things on weekends, a lot of the single people would get together and go to the mountains or someplace, we were always doing things. I used to go backpacking with some of the engineers.

[Assistant] You got married in ’61 you said? Did you continue working for a while afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people I worked with were my best friends, we were together all the time when we were apart from work.

[Assistant] It was small too. There weren’t as many people here.

[User] Yes. We used to do things on weekends, a lot of the single people would get together and go to the mountains or someplace, we were always doing things. I used to go backpacking with some of the engineers.

[Assistant] You got married in ’61 you said? Did you continue working for a while afterwards?

[User] I did for almost a year, well, most of that year; I stopped before our first baby was born.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you got married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We used to do things on weekends, a lot of the single people would get together and go to the mountains or someplace, we were always doing things. I used to go backpacking with some of the engineers.

[Assistant] You got married in ’61 you said? Did you continue working for a while afterwards?

[User] I did for almost a year, well, most of that year; I stopped before our first baby was born.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you got married?

[User]
We lived in Lancaster.

Yes. We’ve always lived here. We’ve moved a couple of times, we rented at first, and rented several times before we bought a house. We’re in the same house we bought. We’ve been in there a long time.

[Assistant] You just drove to work together after that I assume.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did for almost a year, well, most of that year; I stopped before our first baby was born.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you got married?

[User]
We lived in Lancaster.

Yes. We’ve always lived here. We’ve moved a couple of times, we rented at first, and rented several times before we bought a house. We’re in the same house we bought. We’ve been in there a long time.

[Assistant] You just drove to work together after that I assume.

[User] Actually we carpooled. His brother and his wife lived just down the street form us, so we carpooled together for a while.

[Assistant] They worked also at the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We lived in Lancaster.

Yes. We’ve always lived here. We’ve moved a couple of times, we rented at first, and rented several times before we bought a house. We’re in the same house we bought. We’ve been in there a long time.

[Assistant] You just drove to work together after that I assume.

[User] Actually we carpooled. His brother and his wife lived just down the street form us, so we carpooled together for a while.

[Assistant] They worked also at the Center?

[User]
Right. They both were at the Center.

Yes, my next brother worked there for a while. He didn’t make a career of it, but he worked there when he was young. He eventually went into law enforcement, ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms] agent, Treasury [Department].

[Assistant] As far as the NACA, is there anything that comes to mind that you think would be the most significant thing that you did while it was still NACA, or any other anecdotes about that time period that you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually we carpooled. His brother and his wife lived just down the street form us, so we carpooled together for a while.

[Assistant] They worked also at the Center?

[User]
Right. They both were at the Center.

Yes, my next brother worked there for a while. He didn’t make a career of it, but he worked there when he was young. He eventually went into law enforcement, ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms] agent, Treasury [Department].

[Assistant] As far as the NACA, is there anything that comes to mind that you think would be the most significant thing that you did while it was still NACA, or any other anecdotes about that time period that you can think of?

[User] Yes, I looked at that list of things. My NACA time was mostly me just learning the trade and progressing. I went from an engineering aide to calibrator. They were always changing titles, and then you go through calibrator. Then they gave me an engineer’s rating, like I told you, through the civil service exam. Then I had a more responsible position in the Cal Lab. They would let me do the more important things. Then Don Hallberg was my boss for a while. The organization would change character every once in a while. People would move up. Don didn’t like it, so then I became a branch head.

[Assistant] When was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I looked at that list of things. My NACA time was mostly me just learning the trade and progressing. I went from an engineering aide to calibrator. They were always changing titles, and then you go through calibrator. Then they gave me an engineer’s rating, like I told you, through the civil service exam. Then I had a more responsible position in the Cal Lab. They would let me do the more important things. Then Don Hallberg was my boss for a while. The organization would change character every once in a while. People would move up. Don didn’t like it, so then I became a branch head.

[Assistant] When was that?

[User] I don’t remember. That would have been in NASA. It would have been after NACA. NACA, I was still just an instrument calibrator. I think I was GS-6 and then went back to 5 as an engineer. Then I worked my way up through the engineers. Then they did—well, this was NASA—NASA did a big reorganization, they changed the whole organization. They formed a facility manager group, and they asked me to be a facility manager for calibration and test. That’s when I worked for John McTigue. The Director then was the pilot [John A. Manke], and he became the Director. Well, of course there’s the time we were under Ames too. There was a while there, Ames was the big Center, and we weren’t, so they put us under Ames.\n\n You used to have to fly to Ames to coordinate with people, and then, well, now Ames has gone away, and Armstrong is the bigger Center. Things change. Yes, I tried to think, but I don’t know that I did anything.

[Assistant] Other than learn.

[User] Yes. I don’t know what I would call something significant.

[Assistant] Is there anything that strikes you that you worked on during that time that you remember as being interesting or something that jumps out in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember. That would have been in NASA. It would have been after NACA. NACA, I was still just an instrument calibrator. I think I was GS-6 and then went back to 5 as an engineer. Then I worked my way up through the engineers. Then they did—well, this was NASA—NASA did a big reorganization, they changed the whole organization. They formed a facility manager group, and they asked me to be a facility manager for calibration and test. That’s when I worked for John McTigue. The Director then was the pilot [John A. Manke], and he became the Director. Well, of course there’s the time we were under Ames too. There was a while there, Ames was the big Center, and we weren’t, so they put us under Ames.\n\n You used to have to fly to Ames to coordinate with people, and then, well, now Ames has gone away, and Armstrong is the bigger Center. Things change. Yes, I tried to think, but I don’t know that I did anything.

[Assistant] Other than learn.

[User] Yes. I don’t know what I would call something significant.

[Assistant] Is there anything that strikes you that you worked on during that time that you remember as being interesting or something that jumps out in your mind?

[User] All of the aircraft projects were interesting to me. The fellows would take me out back and show me what was going on and explain things to me, and I saw a lot of special landings of different crafts. Usually we couldn’t see the takeoffs, they were too far away. They were down the other end. It just was all very interesting. I think the X-15, I don’t remember if that came while it was still NACA or if that was after NASA.

[Assistant] It was ’60, I think, 1959 or 1960.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t know what I would call something significant.

[Assistant] Is there anything that strikes you that you worked on during that time that you remember as being interesting or something that jumps out in your mind?

[User] All of the aircraft projects were interesting to me. The fellows would take me out back and show me what was going on and explain things to me, and I saw a lot of special landings of different crafts. Usually we couldn’t see the takeoffs, they were too far away. They were down the other end. It just was all very interesting. I think the X-15, I don’t remember if that came while it was still NACA or if that was after NASA.

[Assistant] It was ’60, I think, 1959 or 1960.

[User] I think it was, yes. I think it was a little bit later, we’d go out and watch all those landings. I was thinking about it the other day. The fellows acted more like fathers to me and showing me around and teaching me all the information and showing me how things worked. It just was very interesting to me, because it was something that was all entirely new.

[Assistant] Something that you weren’t necessarily expecting to do when you were still in school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of the aircraft projects were interesting to me. The fellows would take me out back and show me what was going on and explain things to me, and I saw a lot of special landings of different crafts. Usually we couldn’t see the takeoffs, they were too far away. They were down the other end. It just was all very interesting. I think the X-15, I don’t remember if that came while it was still NACA or if that was after NASA.

[Assistant] It was ’60, I think, 1959 or 1960.

[User] I think it was, yes. I think it was a little bit later, we’d go out and watch all those landings. I was thinking about it the other day. The fellows acted more like fathers to me and showing me around and teaching me all the information and showing me how things worked. It just was very interesting to me, because it was something that was all entirely new.

[Assistant] Something that you weren’t necessarily expecting to do when you were still in school?

[User] I had no idea I was going to do something like that. But I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you came here when you were a sophomore in high school to the area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was, yes. I think it was a little bit later, we’d go out and watch all those landings. I was thinking about it the other day. The fellows acted more like fathers to me and showing me around and teaching me all the information and showing me how things worked. It just was very interesting to me, because it was something that was all entirely new.

[Assistant] Something that you weren’t necessarily expecting to do when you were still in school?

[User] I had no idea I was going to do something like that. But I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you came here when you were a sophomore in high school to the area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did your family come from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea I was going to do something like that. But I always enjoyed it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you came here when you were a sophomore in high school to the area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did your family come from?

[User] I was born in Indiana, but my dad followed construction jobs on the Bases, so we traveled all over the country.

[Assistant] This is quite a difference as far as the environment, from Indiana to here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where did your family come from?

[User] I was born in Indiana, but my dad followed construction jobs on the Bases, so we traveled all over the country.

[Assistant] This is quite a difference as far as the environment, from Indiana to here.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that an adjustment as far as working? As Rebecca mentioned before we talked, women had a dress code that they had to follow, and you were expected to dress certain ways. Of course sometimes this environment was a little harsh for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Indiana, but my dad followed construction jobs on the Bases, so we traveled all over the country.

[Assistant] This is quite a difference as far as the environment, from Indiana to here.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that an adjustment as far as working? As Rebecca mentioned before we talked, women had a dress code that they had to follow, and you were expected to dress certain ways. Of course sometimes this environment was a little harsh for that.

[User] It was just the normal way to dress, because even in high school here you did not wear pants. It was not the accepted thing. Every once in a while when we had snow days, we would have an exception and be allowed to. So it was just what I was used to.

[Assistant] Wasn’t anything unusual about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was that an adjustment as far as working? As Rebecca mentioned before we talked, women had a dress code that they had to follow, and you were expected to dress certain ways. Of course sometimes this environment was a little harsh for that.

[User] It was just the normal way to dress, because even in high school here you did not wear pants. It was not the accepted thing. Every once in a while when we had snow days, we would have an exception and be allowed to. So it was just what I was used to.

[Assistant] Wasn’t anything unusual about it.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Of course there wasn’t any air conditioning at that time either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just the normal way to dress, because even in high school here you did not wear pants. It was not the accepted thing. Every once in a while when we had snow days, we would have an exception and be allowed to. So it was just what I was used to.

[Assistant] Wasn’t anything unusual about it.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Of course there wasn’t any air conditioning at that time either.

[User] Oh, there was at the NACA Center. It was quite comfortable.

[Assistant] It wasn’t an uncomfortable work environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Of course there wasn’t any air conditioning at that time either.

[User] Oh, there was at the NACA Center. It was quite comfortable.

[Assistant] It wasn’t an uncomfortable work environment.

[User]
No, it was comfortable.

At the old base, we didn’t have air conditioning.

This was the new modern buildings, it was quite nice.

[Assistant] Better than being at home probably sometimes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, there was at the NACA Center. It was quite comfortable.

[Assistant] It wasn’t an uncomfortable work environment.

[User]
No, it was comfortable.

At the old base, we didn’t have air conditioning.

This was the new modern buildings, it was quite nice.

[Assistant] Better than being at home probably sometimes.

[User] Yes. We didn’t have AC at home.

[Assistant] It changed over to NASA while you were still working too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, it was comfortable.

At the old base, we didn’t have air conditioning.

This was the new modern buildings, it was quite nice.

[Assistant] Better than being at home probably sometimes.

[User] Yes. We didn’t have AC at home.

[Assistant] It changed over to NASA while you were still working too.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] You stayed for a little while with NASA. Did you notice any changes in the work that you did or the organization? I know you were in the same organization.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We didn’t have AC at home.

[Assistant] It changed over to NASA while you were still working too.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] You stayed for a little while with NASA. Did you notice any changes in the work that you did or the organization? I know you were in the same organization.

[User] Not at that point in time, there really wasn’t much change.

[Assistant] Not a lot that you did differently or anything that came through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] You stayed for a little while with NASA. Did you notice any changes in the work that you did or the organization? I know you were in the same organization.

[User] Not at that point in time, there really wasn’t much change.

[Assistant] Not a lot that you did differently or anything that came through?

[User] I keep saying the thing that I remember the most about the change is that shortly after the change we had all these stacks of NACA stationery that we had to just dispose of. It took a few weeks probably until they sent in the new NASA things. We had all these things, what do we do with these? That was one of the things that was a joke among all the secretarial type women.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you moved up as a branch chief first? Then you moved on into more management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at that point in time, there really wasn’t much change.

[Assistant] Not a lot that you did differently or anything that came through?

[User] I keep saying the thing that I remember the most about the change is that shortly after the change we had all these stacks of NACA stationery that we had to just dispose of. It took a few weeks probably until they sent in the new NASA things. We had all these things, what do we do with these? That was one of the things that was a joke among all the secretarial type women.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you moved up as a branch chief first? Then you moved on into more management?

[User] My first leadership was being over the Calibration Lab.

[Assistant] Was there anyone in particular that you had worked for that you modeled some of your management style after? Was there anyone that you admired that you tried to follow the same type of management techniques or anything as you went through?