[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's just like so every month, like women go and have their babies weighed and they also get immunizations.

[Assistant] I'm interrupting you, I'm sorry, where? Because you had no health clinic.

[User] So like our health clinic was the village next to us. And it wasn't actually a clinic. It was like they got some benches out and there was like some abandoned buildings that we used.

[Assistant] Just abandoned buildings?

[User] I think their original built purpose was to be like the place for the women to go for the baby clinic day. But like when we didn't go there for baby clinic day, there was like nothing. No one there. And so once a month they get used for that. And then yeah, there is.

[Assistant] Did you give health talks during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So like our health clinic was the village next to us. And it wasn't actually a clinic. It was like they got some benches out and there was like some abandoned buildings that we used.

[Assistant] Just abandoned buildings?

[User] I think their original built purpose was to be like the place for the women to go for the baby clinic day. But like when we didn't go there for baby clinic day, there was like nothing. No one there. And so once a month they get used for that. And then yeah, there is.

[Assistant] Did you give health talks during that time?

[User] It was like the hospital staff that would come and do the baby weigh ins gave really long health talks. So for a while I thought about, oh, I want to do a health talk. And then I was just like, I don't really want to. These guys already talk for so long.

[Assistant] They come from, the hospital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think their original built purpose was to be like the place for the women to go for the baby clinic day. But like when we didn't go there for baby clinic day, there was like nothing. No one there. And so once a month they get used for that. And then yeah, there is.

[Assistant] Did you give health talks during that time?

[User] It was like the hospital staff that would come and do the baby weigh ins gave really long health talks. So for a while I thought about, oh, I want to do a health talk. And then I was just like, I don't really want to. These guys already talk for so long.

[Assistant] They come from, the hospital?

[User] So the hospital was ten K from my site and there's a volunteer in that village.

[Assistant] OK. Anything you want to say about, like how they word this, joys and woes after your first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was like the hospital staff that would come and do the baby weigh ins gave really long health talks. So for a while I thought about, oh, I want to do a health talk. And then I was just like, I don't really want to. These guys already talk for so long.

[Assistant] They come from, the hospital?

[User] So the hospital was ten K from my site and there's a volunteer in that village.

[Assistant] OK. Anything you want to say about, like how they word this, joys and woes after your first year?

[User] I'm trying to, I can't really remember my mindset at the first year. We had like a mid-service training. My parents came out right around my first year, which was really cool. They were in my village for about a week and then we did some of like the tourist stuff that I wouldn't pay for on a Peace Corps salary.

[Assistant] Like what was the tourist stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to, I can't really remember my mindset at the first year. We had like a mid-service training. My parents came out right around my first year, which was really cool. They were in my village for about a week and then we did some of like the tourist stuff that I wouldn't pay for on a Peace Corps salary.

[Assistant] Like what was the tourist stuff?

[User] There was like a baboon island, or there was an island that had chimpanzees on it that you can like stay at a lodge and then go around the island in the boat. But you cannot go on the island.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And then there's like an eco lodge.

[Assistant] OK. And then who runs that? The Gambians or others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was like a baboon island, or there was an island that had chimpanzees on it that you can like stay at a lodge and then go around the island in the boat. But you cannot go on the island.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And then there's like an eco lodge.

[Assistant] OK. And then who runs that? The Gambians or others?

[User] It's like a joint. It's mostly a venture by these British people, but they're trying to be like cooperative with the community.

[Assistant] OK. Any unexpected events during your first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then there's like an eco lodge.

[Assistant] OK. And then who runs that? The Gambians or others?

[User] It's like a joint. It's mostly a venture by these British people, but they're trying to be like cooperative with the community.

[Assistant] OK. Any unexpected events during your first year?

[User]
Um. I just, like many things are unexpected, but I don't think there was anything like that really, really rocked.

I think there was.

Yeah, I don't think I want to talk about it.

[Assistant] OK. I'm sorry I'm laughing. This is the interviewer chuckling at times. Any relationships you want to talk about? With the Gambians, your host family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I just think it was just like run of the mill Peace Corps. Like I love, I mean, I guess some people don't like their host family, but I like had a very family like relationship with my host family. Sometimes they really ticked me off, but most of the time like they were my buds.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] And then the Peace Corps volunteer community. I mean, there's obviously some volunteers I didn't like.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But for the most part, like all of the people in my group I was really good friends with and the people in my area less good friends with. But still there were some really good friends there.

[Assistant] OK. Any health problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then the Peace Corps volunteer community. I mean, there's obviously some volunteers I didn't like.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But for the most part, like all of the people in my group I was really good friends with and the people in my area less good friends with. But still there were some really good friends there.

[Assistant] OK. Any health problems?

[User] I was sick, pretty sick, twice my first year, but just kind of like high fevers won't go down with medicine.

[Assistant] Do you know what the cause was? I mean, did you ever get malaria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was sick, pretty sick, twice my first year, but just kind of like high fevers won't go down with medicine.

[Assistant] Do you know what the cause was? I mean, did you ever get malaria?

[User] I didn't, but I was on Doxycycline for two years.

[Assistant] Doxycycline.

[User] I took antibiotics every day for two years.

[Assistant] I know we had to take Aralen, but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't, but I was on Doxycycline for two years.

[Assistant] Doxycycline.

[User] I took antibiotics every day for two years.

[Assistant] I know we had to take Aralen, but.

[User] Yeah, well, they were trying to make us take mefloquine, which was crazy.

[Assistant] Say it again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took antibiotics every day for two years.

[Assistant] I know we had to take Aralen, but.

[User] Yeah, well, they were trying to make us take mefloquine, which was crazy.

[Assistant] Say it again?

[User] Mefloquine is the one that makes people go crazy, luckily there.

[Assistant] Could you spell that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mefloquine is the one that makes people go crazy, luckily there.

[Assistant] Could you spell that?

[User] Uh, no.

[Assistant] M-E-T-H. Meth-elquin?

[User] I think there's an F, but I just don't know how to spell it.

[Assistant] OK. You know, I don't know if you might know this. I know in Honduras they had Plasmodium vivax. I think in Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, no.

[Assistant] M-E-T-H. Meth-elquin?

[User] I think there's an F, but I just don't know how to spell it.

[Assistant] OK. You know, I don't know if you might know this. I know in Honduras they had Plasmodium vivax. I think in Africa.

[User] We're falciparum.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I think that's more deadly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there's an F, but I just don't know how to spell it.

[Assistant] OK. You know, I don't know if you might know this. I know in Honduras they had Plasmodium vivax. I think in Africa.

[User] We're falciparum.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I think that's more deadly.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, really, people can die from falciparum.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're falciparum.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I think that's more deadly.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, really, people can die from falciparum.

[User] Yeah, so I would just get like really stressed out about if like, because cerebral malaria can kill you in 2 to 3 days. So if you have a fever that's not going down, like I think I am a secret hypochondriac. Like I'm not worried about like germs on your hand. But if I start feeling sick and I don't feel like I can explain why, I worry about things. But cerebral malaria is no joke so.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm just being redundant for the interview. It was falciparum that they had in your area in Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, really, people can die from falciparum.

[User] Yeah, so I would just get like really stressed out about if like, because cerebral malaria can kill you in 2 to 3 days. So if you have a fever that's not going down, like I think I am a secret hypochondriac. Like I'm not worried about like germs on your hand. But if I start feeling sick and I don't feel like I can explain why, I worry about things. But cerebral malaria is no joke so.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm just being redundant for the interview. It was falciparum that they had in your area in Africa.

[User] Yeah, P. falciparum.

[Assistant] And it was doxycycline you took every day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so I would just get like really stressed out about if like, because cerebral malaria can kill you in 2 to 3 days. So if you have a fever that's not going down, like I think I am a secret hypochondriac. Like I'm not worried about like germs on your hand. But if I start feeling sick and I don't feel like I can explain why, I worry about things. But cerebral malaria is no joke so.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm just being redundant for the interview. It was falciparum that they had in your area in Africa.

[User] Yeah, P. falciparum.

[Assistant] And it was doxycycline you took every day?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. You never got malaria. Did you take a vacation? I know you already mentioned your parents coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, P. falciparum.

[Assistant] And it was doxycycline you took every day?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. You never got malaria. Did you take a vacation? I know you already mentioned your parents coming.

[User] OK, so my friend who serves in Morocco, I think around nine months in country I went to Morocco and I met another friend from Denver in Morocco. And then that friend from Denver came with me to Gambia. I also went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference at like nine. OK, no, so maybe I went at like ten or 11. Maybe like ten months I went to Morocco, but nine months I went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference in Senegal.

[Assistant] In Senegal. And Gambia borders Senegal, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. You never got malaria. Did you take a vacation? I know you already mentioned your parents coming.

[User] OK, so my friend who serves in Morocco, I think around nine months in country I went to Morocco and I met another friend from Denver in Morocco. And then that friend from Denver came with me to Gambia. I also went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference at like nine. OK, no, so maybe I went at like ten or 11. Maybe like ten months I went to Morocco, but nine months I went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference in Senegal.

[Assistant] In Senegal. And Gambia borders Senegal, right?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. I also went to Dakar before that for some sightseeing.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So Stomp Out Malaria conference. OK. And we already. This says travel but you talked about your vacation and all. We're on the tenth question out of 13. At the end of your tour, which for you was not that long ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, so my friend who serves in Morocco, I think around nine months in country I went to Morocco and I met another friend from Denver in Morocco. And then that friend from Denver came with me to Gambia. I also went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference at like nine. OK, no, so maybe I went at like ten or 11. Maybe like ten months I went to Morocco, but nine months I went to the Stomp Out Malaria conference in Senegal.

[Assistant] In Senegal. And Gambia borders Senegal, right?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. I also went to Dakar before that for some sightseeing.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So Stomp Out Malaria conference. OK. And we already. This says travel but you talked about your vacation and all. We're on the tenth question out of 13. At the end of your tour, which for you was not that long ago.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you have, what was your sense of success, achievement, failure with your Peace Corps service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. I also went to Dakar before that for some sightseeing.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So Stomp Out Malaria conference. OK. And we already. This says travel but you talked about your vacation and all. We're on the tenth question out of 13. At the end of your tour, which for you was not that long ago.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you have, what was your sense of success, achievement, failure with your Peace Corps service?

[User] Um. [phone rings] Um, I guess I think near the end, I was so grateful for being given the time in The Gambia that I just. Even though, I mean, I don't think I accomplished anything but at the end of the day, like I'm not the one who's going to accomplish anything. Like if behavior is going to change, I think it's going to come from the Gambian people. It's not going to come from me being like, oh, sleep underneath your bed net. So that was really cool. I mean, like things that I felt really proud about. Like I got a deaf girl enrolled at the deaf school in the capital, so that was really cool.

[Assistant] Oh good, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you have, what was your sense of success, achievement, failure with your Peace Corps service?

[User] Um. [phone rings] Um, I guess I think near the end, I was so grateful for being given the time in The Gambia that I just. Even though, I mean, I don't think I accomplished anything but at the end of the day, like I'm not the one who's going to accomplish anything. Like if behavior is going to change, I think it's going to come from the Gambian people. It's not going to come from me being like, oh, sleep underneath your bed net. So that was really cool. I mean, like things that I felt really proud about. Like I got a deaf girl enrolled at the deaf school in the capital, so that was really cool.

[Assistant] Oh good, yes.

[User] For me. I had a really good garden when I left, but I'm pretty sure it's all done.

[Assistant] Can I interrupt you and ask what kind of crops did you grow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. [phone rings] Um, I guess I think near the end, I was so grateful for being given the time in The Gambia that I just. Even though, I mean, I don't think I accomplished anything but at the end of the day, like I'm not the one who's going to accomplish anything. Like if behavior is going to change, I think it's going to come from the Gambian people. It's not going to come from me being like, oh, sleep underneath your bed net. So that was really cool. I mean, like things that I felt really proud about. Like I got a deaf girl enrolled at the deaf school in the capital, so that was really cool.

[Assistant] Oh good, yes.

[User] For me. I had a really good garden when I left, but I'm pretty sure it's all done.

[Assistant] Can I interrupt you and ask what kind of crops did you grow?

[User] Well, I built like a permaculture garden, so I was using berms and swales to direct the water and create like really good, um.

[Assistant] You lost me on that. Berms and swales?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I built like a permaculture garden, so I was using berms and swales to direct the water and create like really good, um.

[Assistant] You lost me on that. Berms and swales?

[User] Yeah. It's like bumps and troughs.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] To direct the water so it stays in the ground because we have such a dry season. So you can like soak up the rainy season water and save it for the dry season. But I had like two pomegranate trees and three passion fruit trees. Peace Corps told they told me they were going to replace me. This volunteer would have eaten passion fruit and pomegranate. Did not replace me.

[Assistant] OK. Did people, um, I know you've talked about your garden, did people grow and or eat many vegetables?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It's like bumps and troughs.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] To direct the water so it stays in the ground because we have such a dry season. So you can like soak up the rainy season water and save it for the dry season. But I had like two pomegranate trees and three passion fruit trees. Peace Corps told they told me they were going to replace me. This volunteer would have eaten passion fruit and pomegranate. Did not replace me.

[Assistant] OK. Did people, um, I know you've talked about your garden, did people grow and or eat many vegetables?

[User] They like would grow vegetables. They're still, you want to sell vegetables? So it's just like.

[Assistant] To make money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To direct the water so it stays in the ground because we have such a dry season. So you can like soak up the rainy season water and save it for the dry season. But I had like two pomegranate trees and three passion fruit trees. Peace Corps told they told me they were going to replace me. This volunteer would have eaten passion fruit and pomegranate. Did not replace me.

[Assistant] OK. Did people, um, I know you've talked about your garden, did people grow and or eat many vegetables?

[User] They like would grow vegetables. They're still, you want to sell vegetables? So it's just like.

[Assistant] To make money?

[User] Yeah. Like I would if I was at the market, I would buy a ton of vegetables and give them to my family so that we would eat some. But it's just like, yeah, vegetable, it's just not that much a part of the culture. Most people grow onions. That's what you want to grow.

[Assistant] Really? How about fruit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They like would grow vegetables. They're still, you want to sell vegetables? So it's just like.

[Assistant] To make money?

[User] Yeah. Like I would if I was at the market, I would buy a ton of vegetables and give them to my family so that we would eat some. But it's just like, yeah, vegetable, it's just not that much a part of the culture. Most people grow onions. That's what you want to grow.

[Assistant] Really? How about fruit?

[User] There's tons of mango trees everywhere, all over Gambia. So in mango season, you eat mangoes.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I forget about the season, so I thought, well, gosh, then you ate a lot of mangoes. In season. Yeah


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Like I would if I was at the market, I would buy a ton of vegetables and give them to my family so that we would eat some. But it's just like, yeah, vegetable, it's just not that much a part of the culture. Most people grow onions. That's what you want to grow.

[Assistant] Really? How about fruit?

[User] There's tons of mango trees everywhere, all over Gambia. So in mango season, you eat mangoes.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I forget about the season, so I thought, well, gosh, then you ate a lot of mangoes. In season. Yeah

[User] Yeah. There's banana trees. Like, I had a banana tree. I had one harvest and then it died. That can be year-round. There's an orange season, but the oranges are like somewhere between a lemon and orange. And there's papaya, and then there's like local fruit, which is baobab, bush mango. I don't even know what other stuff is called.

[Assistant] Right. Interesting. And I know you, we'll end in a few minutes. I want it to end at a certain time. We have like 9 minutes on the recorder.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Tell them about the women's garden.

Oh, well I got the pump fixed in the women's garden, but like as a long term, sustainable thing, it was like a $10,000 grant to fix it too.

[Assistant] Wow. OK.

[User] But it's kind of like, Gambia is becoming more arid as time goes, so there's never like going to be enough water.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Especially if I'm not replaced. Like, there's ways you can like make the water stuff more sustainable, but.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK. And I'm looking ahead at one of these questions, you know, it says. We won't even go into question 12, through the years have you continued any involvement? I mean, you've just been back a few months. So considering that you've been back a short time, is there anything else you might want to add about your service in The Gambia? I mean, you've given us a lot of good information. Interesting. Any regrets and satisfactions, we'll say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it's kind of like, Gambia is becoming more arid as time goes, so there's never like going to be enough water.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Especially if I'm not replaced. Like, there's ways you can like make the water stuff more sustainable, but.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK. And I'm looking ahead at one of these questions, you know, it says. We won't even go into question 12, through the years have you continued any involvement? I mean, you've just been back a few months. So considering that you've been back a short time, is there anything else you might want to add about your service in The Gambia? I mean, you've given us a lot of good information. Interesting. Any regrets and satisfactions, we'll say?

[User] Um. I don't know. I think, I guess almost I wish I hadn't taken things so seriously in the first year and just, like, spent more time like enjoying my village and being with the people there and.

[Assistant] Yeah. What would you do with the people, I mean, like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just like, so they like.

[Assistant] Talking, dancing?

[User] Yeah, talking.

[Assistant] Playing soccer?

[User] I played soccer with them for a bit, but it was like only guys and it's so hot there and I just really wasn't. In the end, I wasn't enjoying it enough to do it. Mostly people just like sit there and they brew this thing called attaya, which is like green tea.

[Assistant] Would you spell that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, talking.

[Assistant] Playing soccer?

[User] I played soccer with them for a bit, but it was like only guys and it's so hot there and I just really wasn't. In the end, I wasn't enjoying it enough to do it. Mostly people just like sit there and they brew this thing called attaya, which is like green tea.

[Assistant] Would you spell that?

[User] A-T-T-A-Y-A.

[Assistant] That's a green tea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I played soccer with them for a bit, but it was like only guys and it's so hot there and I just really wasn't. In the end, I wasn't enjoying it enough to do it. Mostly people just like sit there and they brew this thing called attaya, which is like green tea.

[Assistant] Would you spell that?

[User] A-T-T-A-Y-A.

[Assistant] That's a green tea?

[User] Yeah, it's like Chinese gunpowder tea.

[Assistant] OK, so you drank a lot of attaya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A-T-T-A-Y-A.

[Assistant] That's a green tea?

[User] Yeah, it's like Chinese gunpowder tea.

[Assistant] OK, so you drank a lot of attaya.

[User] Yeah, I think that's, that you can find all throughout West Africa. It's a really big like thing that they do.

[Assistant] Did you like the taste?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's like Chinese gunpowder tea.

[Assistant] OK, so you drank a lot of attaya.

[User] Yeah, I think that's, that you can find all throughout West Africa. It's a really big like thing that they do.

[Assistant] Did you like the taste?

[User] Kind of. It was really strong. I don't know. It's just like, that's just like what people do. That's like how you pass a day. You just like brew some attaya.

[Assistant] OK. Do you think you helped the Gambians, like provide, as they say, better understanding of the United States or whatever?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think that's, that you can find all throughout West Africa. It's a really big like thing that they do.

[Assistant] Did you like the taste?

[User] Kind of. It was really strong. I don't know. It's just like, that's just like what people do. That's like how you pass a day. You just like brew some attaya.

[Assistant] OK. Do you think you helped the Gambians, like provide, as they say, better understanding of the United States or whatever?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] I mean, do they get to, do you think they got to know you and thought, what do they think of you and or Americans after your life there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kind of. It was really strong. I don't know. It's just like, that's just like what people do. That's like how you pass a day. You just like brew some attaya.

[Assistant] OK. Do you think you helped the Gambians, like provide, as they say, better understanding of the United States or whatever?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] I mean, do they get to, do you think they got to know you and thought, what do they think of you and or Americans after your life there?

[User] I think that was like, that is why I feel like my Peace Corps service was like meaningful, or not. Worthwhile.

[Assistant] That it was or was not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] I mean, do they get to, do you think they got to know you and thought, what do they think of you and or Americans after your life there?

[User] I think that was like, that is why I feel like my Peace Corps service was like meaningful, or not. Worthwhile.

[Assistant] That it was or was not?

[User] Was.

[Assistant] Was worthwhile. OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was like, that is why I feel like my Peace Corps service was like meaningful, or not. Worthwhile.

[Assistant] That it was or was not?

[User] Was.

[Assistant] Was worthwhile. OK.

[User] Because like I think especially in this day and age, like a lot of people see like American music videos and that's what they think of America.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. Uh huh. And TV shows if they get shows.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So just like having me live in the village, like on the same level as other villagers for a year, like wearing what they wear and working. I mean, they work a lot harder than I worked but.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I would like go to the rice fields and, you know, like get down and dirty. And I think that was really, I felt like meaningful because it's like, no, this is, we're just the same kind of people. Like, we just do our jobs or, you know, we talk to people. We take baths.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What are your plans for the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would like go to the rice fields and, you know, like get down and dirty. And I think that was really, I felt like meaningful because it's like, no, this is, we're just the same kind of people. Like, we just do our jobs or, you know, we talk to people. We take baths.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What are your plans for the future?

[User] So I'm hopefully, we'll see. I don't. I feel like Peace Corps really taught me that like, you know, don't make plans too far ahead of things and your life can always change and go in a different direction. But I'm looking to become a nurse, so I'm taking like prerequisites starting this summer. But it's also.

[Assistant] Where are you taking the pre reqs at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I'm hopefully, we'll see. I don't. I feel like Peace Corps really taught me that like, you know, don't make plans too far ahead of things and your life can always change and go in a different direction. But I'm looking to become a nurse, so I'm taking like prerequisites starting this summer. But it's also.

[Assistant] Where are you taking the pre reqs at?

[User] Community College of Denver.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But also like I plan to do the summer semester as kind of like a trial. Like if I don't think it's cut out for me, then it won't have been that much money down the drain to just do a couple of classes.

[Assistant] And I know this is, I'm not supposed to talk about myself, but I think I told you at the happy hour, there's so many different fields in nursing that one field may not suit you, my opinion, but another one might, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Community College of Denver.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] But also like I plan to do the summer semester as kind of like a trial. Like if I don't think it's cut out for me, then it won't have been that much money down the drain to just do a couple of classes.

[Assistant] And I know this is, I'm not supposed to talk about myself, but I think I told you at the happy hour, there's so many different fields in nursing that one field may not suit you, my opinion, but another one might, you know?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I know. Anything else? You wanted to end about 6:15. Anything you might want to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But also like I plan to do the summer semester as kind of like a trial. Like if I don't think it's cut out for me, then it won't have been that much money down the drain to just do a couple of classes.

[Assistant] And I know this is, I'm not supposed to talk about myself, but I think I told you at the happy hour, there's so many different fields in nursing that one field may not suit you, my opinion, but another one might, you know?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I know. Anything else? You wanted to end about 6:15. Anything you might want to add?

[User] Um. I just.

[Assistant] How? Well, I'll just ask. What was the effect of your Peace Corps service on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I actually came down in April.

[Assistant] In April?

[User] In April of ’83. For one of the launches.

[Assistant] When you came in April, did you start your position then?

[User] No, I didn’t start. I went back and then came back down in July.

[Assistant] As the Deputy Director at that time, under Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In April of ’83. For one of the launches.

[Assistant] When you came in April, did you start your position then?

[User] No, I didn’t start. I went back and then came back down in July.

[Assistant] As the Deputy Director at that time, under Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin.

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] You also were still attached to [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t start. I went back and then came back down in July.

[Assistant] As the Deputy Director at that time, under Gerry [Gerald D.] Griffin.

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] You also were still attached to [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] at that time?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] How did that work, having that dual assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] You also were still attached to [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia] at that time?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] How did that work, having that dual assignment?

[User] That worked fine, as I remember it. I went back a couple of times, but it worked very well. In fact, Hans Mark, who sent me to JSC, sent me down with about three different goals in mind. One was to get experience on the Space Shuttle operations. The other was to start Space Station, and to get a leading role for JSC in that endeavor. So that was pretty simple, and I thought that by coming down for a space launch, that I would start on the first of those goals. He was a Deputy Administrator at that time. I think James [M.] Beggs was on a leave of absence. He was the Administrator.

[Assistant] When you came down here, did you still maintain duties at Langley or were you still—what were you doing? You said you went back and forth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] How did that work, having that dual assignment?

[User] That worked fine, as I remember it. I went back a couple of times, but it worked very well. In fact, Hans Mark, who sent me to JSC, sent me down with about three different goals in mind. One was to get experience on the Space Shuttle operations. The other was to start Space Station, and to get a leading role for JSC in that endeavor. So that was pretty simple, and I thought that by coming down for a space launch, that I would start on the first of those goals. He was a Deputy Administrator at that time. I think James [M.] Beggs was on a leave of absence. He was the Administrator.

[Assistant] When you came down here, did you still maintain duties at Langley or were you still—what were you doing? You said you went back and forth.

[User] Well, between April and July, and I still maintained duties [as Director of Structures]. I wasn’t officially sent down here until July.

[Assistant] How prepared do you feel you were to take over the Deputy Director position at that point in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That worked fine, as I remember it. I went back a couple of times, but it worked very well. In fact, Hans Mark, who sent me to JSC, sent me down with about three different goals in mind. One was to get experience on the Space Shuttle operations. The other was to start Space Station, and to get a leading role for JSC in that endeavor. So that was pretty simple, and I thought that by coming down for a space launch, that I would start on the first of those goals. He was a Deputy Administrator at that time. I think James [M.] Beggs was on a leave of absence. He was the Administrator.

[Assistant] When you came down here, did you still maintain duties at Langley or were you still—what were you doing? You said you went back and forth.

[User] Well, between April and July, and I still maintained duties [as Director of Structures]. I wasn’t officially sent down here until July.

[Assistant] How prepared do you feel you were to take over the Deputy Director position at that point in your career?

[User] Well, that’s an interesting question. How prepared was I? I don’t think I was really that prepared. I was going into a new culture, a new Center, and I didn’t realize how much that entailed. You know, I’d risen up as far as I could go, except for Director or Deputy Director at Langley, so coming to JSC was kind of natural, but I didn’t realize at the time what it entailed. That’s the best way to put it.

[Assistant] You took part in the [NASA] Headquarters Executive Program at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, between April and July, and I still maintained duties [as Director of Structures]. I wasn’t officially sent down here until July.

[Assistant] How prepared do you feel you were to take over the Deputy Director position at that point in your career?

[User] Well, that’s an interesting question. How prepared was I? I don’t think I was really that prepared. I was going into a new culture, a new Center, and I didn’t realize how much that entailed. You know, I’d risen up as far as I could go, except for Director or Deputy Director at Langley, so coming to JSC was kind of natural, but I didn’t realize at the time what it entailed. That’s the best way to put it.

[Assistant] You took part in the [NASA] Headquarters Executive Program at NASA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you at all with this transition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s an interesting question. How prepared was I? I don’t think I was really that prepared. I was going into a new culture, a new Center, and I didn’t realize how much that entailed. You know, I’d risen up as far as I could go, except for Director or Deputy Director at Langley, so coming to JSC was kind of natural, but I didn’t realize at the time what it entailed. That’s the best way to put it.

[Assistant] You took part in the [NASA] Headquarters Executive Program at NASA?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you at all with this transition?

[User] Not really. [Laughs] No. It’s one thing to learn out of books and a lot of the theory involved, and even, you know, to take small exercises, but to actually live through it is something different.

[Assistant] Can you explain to us some of your day-to-day activities when you first came here and what your duties were and how they were explained to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you at all with this transition?

[User] Not really. [Laughs] No. It’s one thing to learn out of books and a lot of the theory involved, and even, you know, to take small exercises, but to actually live through it is something different.

[Assistant] Can you explain to us some of your day-to-day activities when you first came here and what your duties were and how they were explained to you?

[User] Well, [Gerald D.] Gerry Griffin was a good boss. He more or less said that what he did is what I would do and watch him, so anything that, you know, he decided to let me do, I would do, which kind of entailed mostly, you know, meetings and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with mission planning or any sort of connection with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. [Laughs] No. It’s one thing to learn out of books and a lot of the theory involved, and even, you know, to take small exercises, but to actually live through it is something different.

[Assistant] Can you explain to us some of your day-to-day activities when you first came here and what your duties were and how they were explained to you?

[User] Well, [Gerald D.] Gerry Griffin was a good boss. He more or less said that what he did is what I would do and watch him, so anything that, you know, he decided to let me do, I would do, which kind of entailed mostly, you know, meetings and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with mission planning or any sort of connection with that?

[User] [Yes].

[Assistant] You mentioned that Hans Mark wanted you to get experience with the Shuttle Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, [Gerald D.] Gerry Griffin was a good boss. He more or less said that what he did is what I would do and watch him, so anything that, you know, he decided to let me do, I would do, which kind of entailed mostly, you know, meetings and so forth.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with mission planning or any sort of connection with that?

[User] [Yes].

[Assistant] You mentioned that Hans Mark wanted you to get experience with the Shuttle Program.

[User] Yes, operations.

[Assistant] How did you go about doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Yes].

[Assistant] You mentioned that Hans Mark wanted you to get experience with the Shuttle Program.

[User] Yes, operations.

[Assistant] How did you go about doing that?

[User] Well, I was in the Mission Control room, or either at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] for a launch and then back here, throughout the whole mission, except for when I went home to sleep, and I watched all the controllers in the Mission Control Center. We were in Building 30 at that time. I went to the backup rooms and saw what they did. So it was more or less learning on-the-job training.

[Assistant] Was that interesting to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, operations.

[Assistant] How did you go about doing that?

[User] Well, I was in the Mission Control room, or either at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] for a launch and then back here, throughout the whole mission, except for when I went home to sleep, and I watched all the controllers in the Mission Control Center. We were in Building 30 at that time. I went to the backup rooms and saw what they did. So it was more or less learning on-the-job training.

[Assistant] Was that interesting to you?

[User] Yes, it was very interesting. In fact, that really made the time whiz by.

[Assistant] I know when you were at Langley, some of the work you did was with the tiles and that sort of thing. Did that have any bearing on this job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was in the Mission Control room, or either at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] for a launch and then back here, throughout the whole mission, except for when I went home to sleep, and I watched all the controllers in the Mission Control Center. We were in Building 30 at that time. I went to the backup rooms and saw what they did. So it was more or less learning on-the-job training.

[Assistant] Was that interesting to you?

[User] Yes, it was very interesting. In fact, that really made the time whiz by.

[Assistant] I know when you were at Langley, some of the work you did was with the tiles and that sort of thing. Did that have any bearing on this job?

[User] Oh, absolutely. In fact, I was at Rockwell [International Corporation] for like six weeks in 1980, when all the tiles fell off the 747 ferry flight. We were part of the team that was headed by Phil Glenn of JSC at that time. We had [come] from around the country, various structural people, structural dynamicists, and we solved the problem. You know, the densified tiles are the result of that team’s efforts.

[Assistant] What was the relationship between the JSC administration and other parts of NASA, the flight controllers, the engineers, managers, that sort of thing? You were talking about the culture earlier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was very interesting. In fact, that really made the time whiz by.

[Assistant] I know when you were at Langley, some of the work you did was with the tiles and that sort of thing. Did that have any bearing on this job?

[User] Oh, absolutely. In fact, I was at Rockwell [International Corporation] for like six weeks in 1980, when all the tiles fell off the 747 ferry flight. We were part of the team that was headed by Phil Glenn of JSC at that time. We had [come] from around the country, various structural people, structural dynamicists, and we solved the problem. You know, the densified tiles are the result of that team’s efforts.

[Assistant] What was the relationship between the JSC administration and other parts of NASA, the flight controllers, the engineers, managers, that sort of thing? You were talking about the culture earlier.

[User] Well, that’s another interesting question, because the [fourth] reason I was sent here, I think—this wasn’t stated at the time—was to bring some of Langley’s culture to JSC. JSC did not get along well with [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama] at the time. As you remember, at the time I was here, that was while we were doing Space Station and we had the work-package breakdown, and there was a lot of fighting between Centers on the work package—who got what, so to speak. So I think I was, you know, kind of sent here to help soothe that.

[Assistant] From what I’ve read, that was one of the things that you really advocated, was that intercenter cooperation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was for JSC, myself. [Laughs] So I didn’t probably help in smoothing that over as much as I could have. Plus, I had the Shuttle\n\n Challenger\n\n [accident] at that time, and my boss had quit, so it was kind of a hectic time.

[Assistant] In that process, do you feel like there was an agreement that was eventually reached as far as the Space Station, at that time, not later on, but at that time, in the middle eighties, the two had that cooperation? Do you feel like it was ever actually achieved?

[User] Not in my tenure. I think Aaron Cohen took over the Center in October in [19]’86, and I think he achieved that.

[Assistant] Since you mentioned it, let’s go ahead and talk about the\n\n Challenger\n\n time, and, as you said, there were a lot of changes going on. In the years prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , the remote sensing program was phased out. You lost Glynn [S.] Lunney, Hans Mark retired, William [R.] Graham came into the picture, and then James Beggs was indicted. Then on January 14th [1986], Gerry Griffin retired and left you somewhat in charge for a couple of weeks as the acting director. Then just a few days before the\n\n Challenger\n\n , then, of course, Mr. [Jesse W.] Moore was—

[User] He was in Headquarters, came down.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that period of time and how those changes and those fluctuations affected the Center prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , and give us an idea of what the feeling was and how it affected you in your position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in my tenure. I think Aaron Cohen took over the Center in October in [19]’86, and I think he achieved that.

[Assistant] Since you mentioned it, let’s go ahead and talk about the\n\n Challenger\n\n time, and, as you said, there were a lot of changes going on. In the years prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , the remote sensing program was phased out. You lost Glynn [S.] Lunney, Hans Mark retired, William [R.] Graham came into the picture, and then James Beggs was indicted. Then on January 14th [1986], Gerry Griffin retired and left you somewhat in charge for a couple of weeks as the acting director. Then just a few days before the\n\n Challenger\n\n , then, of course, Mr. [Jesse W.] Moore was—

[User] He was in Headquarters, came down.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that period of time and how those changes and those fluctuations affected the Center prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , and give us an idea of what the feeling was and how it affected you in your position?

[User] Well, I was devastated from\n\n Challenger\n\n . The only trouble we’d had on the launch pad was ice off the tower coming down. That was deemed to be acceptable, so we went, and even though—I was not aware that there was a ring problem in the solid boosters. I can remember that I was in Mission Control Center when it launched, and I was on the phone in that little room, the glass room with the President’s office—I assumed [it] was the President’s office,—oh, most of the day. It was a long period. And that’s when we lost control, because the President [Ronald Reagan] said he was going to set up this commission, and so forth and so on. We had an Acting Administrator, who was Bill Graham. He was on vacation at the time. I couldn’t get a hold of him. So, you know, what could I do?

[Assistant] What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in Headquarters, came down.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that period of time and how those changes and those fluctuations affected the Center prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , and give us an idea of what the feeling was and how it affected you in your position?

[User] Well, I was devastated from\n\n Challenger\n\n . The only trouble we’d had on the launch pad was ice off the tower coming down. That was deemed to be acceptable, so we went, and even though—I was not aware that there was a ring problem in the solid boosters. I can remember that I was in Mission Control Center when it launched, and I was on the phone in that little room, the glass room with the President’s office—I assumed [it] was the President’s office,—oh, most of the day. It was a long period. And that’s when we lost control, because the President [Ronald Reagan] said he was going to set up this commission, and so forth and so on. We had an Acting Administrator, who was Bill Graham. He was on vacation at the time. I couldn’t get a hold of him. So, you know, what could I do?

[Assistant] What did you do?

[User] Well, I stayed on the phone and listened, primarily. They did most of the talking at their end. They set up this [Presidential] commission [over my objections]….

[Assistant] What were your actions immediately following the accident? What did you have to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I stayed on the phone and listened, primarily. They did most of the talking at their end. They set up this [Presidential] commission [over my objections]….

[Assistant] What were your actions immediately following the accident? What did you have to do?

[User] Well, the first thing was to shut down all the data to make sure that it was locked up, which is the primary administrative duty that you have to do. Then we set up teams that went out and investigated what could possibly—in fact, in two weeks we had a perfect scenario, computer simulation, of what happened. There was a meeting at Headquarters—I think Bill Graham chaired it; I’m not sure about that—but all the Center Directors were there, and they went around the table with the question on the floor being how long should we be down? I remember General Lew Allen [Jr.] from JPL [NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] and myself were the only two out of all the Center Directors that said let’s launch within as long as it takes to put a bellyband around that joint, and they wouldn’t accept that.\n\n So, as far as the accident went, I was devastated. They had reporters at my home interviewing my six-year-old. I was kind of devastated is the only way to put it.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any other public relations activities immediately following it? Did you have to give any statements?

[User] Well, to the press, but I didn’t testify in Congress. Let’s see. Glynn Lunney and—there was another fellow that was here, who was head of the Space Shuttle Office [Arnold D. Aldrich at JSC]—[Jess] Moore, who was head of the Shuttle office in Washington. But they all testified in Congress. I did not testify.

[Assistant] To what degree were you involved in the investigation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the first thing was to shut down all the data to make sure that it was locked up, which is the primary administrative duty that you have to do. Then we set up teams that went out and investigated what could possibly—in fact, in two weeks we had a perfect scenario, computer simulation, of what happened. There was a meeting at Headquarters—I think Bill Graham chaired it; I’m not sure about that—but all the Center Directors were there, and they went around the table with the question on the floor being how long should we be down? I remember General Lew Allen [Jr.] from JPL [NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California] and myself were the only two out of all the Center Directors that said let’s launch within as long as it takes to put a bellyband around that joint, and they wouldn’t accept that.\n\n So, as far as the accident went, I was devastated. They had reporters at my home interviewing my six-year-old. I was kind of devastated is the only way to put it.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any other public relations activities immediately following it? Did you have to give any statements?

[User] Well, to the press, but I didn’t testify in Congress. Let’s see. Glynn Lunney and—there was another fellow that was here, who was head of the Space Shuttle Office [Arnold D. Aldrich at JSC]—[Jess] Moore, who was head of the Shuttle office in Washington. But they all testified in Congress. I did not testify.

[Assistant] To what degree were you involved in the investigation?

[User] Not as much as I would have liked. I went around and saw—I had reports coming to me on what happened. I had cut off the press at that time. I was interviewed by [Samuel A.] Sam Nunn from—I guess he was Senator from Georgia at that time, plus [Dole] Meyers, who had been with NASA earlier…. In fact, Sam Nunn came on a Saturday and I had that interview in the office in Building 1. That was a lengthy stay.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, to the press, but I didn’t testify in Congress. Let’s see. Glynn Lunney and—there was another fellow that was here, who was head of the Space Shuttle Office [Arnold D. Aldrich at JSC]—[Jess] Moore, who was head of the Shuttle office in Washington. But they all testified in Congress. I did not testify.

[Assistant] To what degree were you involved in the investigation?

[User] Not as much as I would have liked. I went around and saw—I had reports coming to me on what happened. I had cut off the press at that time. I was interviewed by [Samuel A.] Sam Nunn from—I guess he was Senator from Georgia at that time, plus [Dole] Meyers, who had been with NASA earlier…. In fact, Sam Nunn came on a Saturday and I had that interview in the office in Building 1. That was a lengthy stay.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that at all?

[User] No, I’d rather not.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you have any contact with the Presidential Commission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as much as I would have liked. I went around and saw—I had reports coming to me on what happened. I had cut off the press at that time. I was interviewed by [Samuel A.] Sam Nunn from—I guess he was Senator from Georgia at that time, plus [Dole] Meyers, who had been with NASA earlier…. In fact, Sam Nunn came on a Saturday and I had that interview in the office in Building 1. That was a lengthy stay.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that at all?

[User] No, I’d rather not.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you have any contact with the Presidential Commission?

[User] Only the ones that were from JSC. Sally [K.] Ride was on that commission, as well as others. They were helping out, so we tried to provide them as much help as possible, but I was not called to testify before them or anything.

[Assistant] What about the atmosphere at JSC as far as everyone else in trying to get people motivated and get over this problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I’d rather not.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you have any contact with the Presidential Commission?

[User] Only the ones that were from JSC. Sally [K.] Ride was on that commission, as well as others. They were helping out, so we tried to provide them as much help as possible, but I was not called to testify before them or anything.

[Assistant] What about the atmosphere at JSC as far as everyone else in trying to get people motivated and get over this problem?

[User] The morale was extremely low, as you can imagine. Everyone was devastated. There was nothing going on except Space Station, which was just starting out, because it was almost three years that Shuttle was down. So the morale was very bad. There were a lot of people leaving. The job was to retain people, to be frank with you, and to motivate them, and we tried to do that with new programs and so forth, but it was pretty tough to do.

[Assistant] What types of new programs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only the ones that were from JSC. Sally [K.] Ride was on that commission, as well as others. They were helping out, so we tried to provide them as much help as possible, but I was not called to testify before them or anything.

[Assistant] What about the atmosphere at JSC as far as everyone else in trying to get people motivated and get over this problem?

[User] The morale was extremely low, as you can imagine. Everyone was devastated. There was nothing going on except Space Station, which was just starting out, because it was almost three years that Shuttle was down. So the morale was very bad. There were a lot of people leaving. The job was to retain people, to be frank with you, and to motivate them, and we tried to do that with new programs and so forth, but it was pretty tough to do.

[Assistant] What types of new programs?

[User] Well, Space Station, primarily. We went through a planning exercise right after\n\n Challenger\n\n , from [19]’86 to [19]’87, and as I remember, we had Shuttle, Space Station [and] advanced programs. There was a lot of things in the advance programs that were new programs and so forth, trips to Mars, the Moon, etc., that we hoped would motivate the people, and we actually started some of those. That was done under a fellow that died. Bill [William J. Huffstetler]—he was a nice young guy, too. He died of a heart attack.

[Assistant] Do you think that—or maybe, if it did, how the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident affected the Station Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The morale was extremely low, as you can imagine. Everyone was devastated. There was nothing going on except Space Station, which was just starting out, because it was almost three years that Shuttle was down. So the morale was very bad. There were a lot of people leaving. The job was to retain people, to be frank with you, and to motivate them, and we tried to do that with new programs and so forth, but it was pretty tough to do.

[Assistant] What types of new programs?

[User] Well, Space Station, primarily. We went through a planning exercise right after\n\n Challenger\n\n , from [19]’86 to [19]’87, and as I remember, we had Shuttle, Space Station [and] advanced programs. There was a lot of things in the advance programs that were new programs and so forth, trips to Mars, the Moon, etc., that we hoped would motivate the people, and we actually started some of those. That was done under a fellow that died. Bill [William J. Huffstetler]—he was a nice young guy, too. He died of a heart attack.

[Assistant] Do you think that—or maybe, if it did, how the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident affected the Station Program?

[User] Well, I think it affected it a great deal, the way it came out. I think JSC was destined to be lead had there not been a\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. As it turned out, I think Marshall gained the majority of the lead. The work packages they got were really the guts of the whole matter. I think JSC’s in big trouble right now, the reason being is because prior to now, Marshall had gotten the next-generation launch vehicle for manned space flight as well as for unmanned. Well, that just put JSC in the operations game. I think that’s a mistake. JSC’s got to be on the cutting edge of any new launch vehicle as well as the operations of same.

[Assistant] Immediately after the accident, you implemented NASA’s accident contingency plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Space Station, primarily. We went through a planning exercise right after\n\n Challenger\n\n , from [19]’86 to [19]’87, and as I remember, we had Shuttle, Space Station [and] advanced programs. There was a lot of things in the advance programs that were new programs and so forth, trips to Mars, the Moon, etc., that we hoped would motivate the people, and we actually started some of those. That was done under a fellow that died. Bill [William J. Huffstetler]—he was a nice young guy, too. He died of a heart attack.

[Assistant] Do you think that—or maybe, if it did, how the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident affected the Station Program?

[User] Well, I think it affected it a great deal, the way it came out. I think JSC was destined to be lead had there not been a\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. As it turned out, I think Marshall gained the majority of the lead. The work packages they got were really the guts of the whole matter. I think JSC’s in big trouble right now, the reason being is because prior to now, Marshall had gotten the next-generation launch vehicle for manned space flight as well as for unmanned. Well, that just put JSC in the operations game. I think that’s a mistake. JSC’s got to be on the cutting edge of any new launch vehicle as well as the operations of same.

[Assistant] Immediately after the accident, you implemented NASA’s accident contingency plan?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that decision and why it was you that did that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think it affected it a great deal, the way it came out. I think JSC was destined to be lead had there not been a\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. As it turned out, I think Marshall gained the majority of the lead. The work packages they got were really the guts of the whole matter. I think JSC’s in big trouble right now, the reason being is because prior to now, Marshall had gotten the next-generation launch vehicle for manned space flight as well as for unmanned. Well, that just put JSC in the operations game. I think that’s a mistake. JSC’s got to be on the cutting edge of any new launch vehicle as well as the operations of same.

[Assistant] Immediately after the accident, you implemented NASA’s accident contingency plan?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that decision and why it was you that did that?

[User] Well, it was just a natural thing to do, you know. I’m wondering what the heck to do, first, and the very day of the accident, as was told to me by [Eugene F.] Gene Kranz, who was in the Mission Control Center, and so I did it. There wasn’t any decision to be made, really. It was already in place.

[Assistant] Where was Mr. Moore during the accident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that decision and why it was you that did that?

[User] Well, it was just a natural thing to do, you know. I’m wondering what the heck to do, first, and the very day of the accident, as was told to me by [Eugene F.] Gene Kranz, who was in the Mission Control Center, and so I did it. There wasn’t any decision to be made, really. It was already in place.

[Assistant] Where was Mr. Moore during the accident?

[User] During the accident, I don’t know. He was in Washington [D.C.] at the time, but I don’t know where he was during the accident.

[Assistant] Did he stay in Washington for a while or did he come down here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was just a natural thing to do, you know. I’m wondering what the heck to do, first, and the very day of the accident, as was told to me by [Eugene F.] Gene Kranz, who was in the Mission Control Center, and so I did it. There wasn’t any decision to be made, really. It was already in place.

[Assistant] Where was Mr. Moore during the accident?

[User] During the accident, I don’t know. He was in Washington [D.C.] at the time, but I don’t know where he was during the accident.

[Assistant] Did he stay in Washington for a while or did he come down here?

[User] He stayed for a while in Washington and then he came here—I can’t remember what the date was, but in mid-summer. Two or three months later.

[Assistant] So were you Acting Director during all that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During the accident, I don’t know. He was in Washington [D.C.] at the time, but I don’t know where he was during the accident.

[Assistant] Did he stay in Washington for a while or did he come down here?

[User] He stayed for a while in Washington and then he came here—I can’t remember what the date was, but in mid-summer. Two or three months later.

[Assistant] So were you Acting Director during all that time?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] He didn’t do it remotely?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He stayed for a while in Washington and then he came here—I can’t remember what the date was, but in mid-summer. Two or three months later.

[Assistant] So were you Acting Director during all that time?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] He didn’t do it remotely?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You were the Acting Director. Okay.\n\n Let’s go back for a moment prior to that and talk about some of your other duties as Deputy Director. You represented JSC as an Equal Opportunity Council member?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] He didn’t do it remotely?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You were the Acting Director. Okay.\n\n Let’s go back for a moment prior to that and talk about some of your other duties as Deputy Director. You represented JSC as an Equal Opportunity Council member?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of your experiences on that council and some of the progress during the time you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You were the Acting Director. Okay.\n\n Let’s go back for a moment prior to that and talk about some of your other duties as Deputy Director. You represented JSC as an Equal Opportunity Council member?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of your experiences on that council and some of the progress during the time you were there?

[User] I can’t remember some of the progress, but we did make good progress, I remember that much. I made a speech at each of the annual meetings, and there was about four or five of them. We set goals for the Centers. I think we did fairly well in that area.

[Assistant] I also read that you created a Center Automatic Data Planning [ADP] Steering Committee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of your experiences on that council and some of the progress during the time you were there?

[User] I can’t remember some of the progress, but we did make good progress, I remember that much. I made a speech at each of the annual meetings, and there was about four or five of them. We set goals for the Centers. I think we did fairly well in that area.

[Assistant] I also read that you created a Center Automatic Data Planning [ADP] Steering Committee.

[User] I might have.

[Assistant] You don’t have any memories about that? I think it was to review the current and future ADP requirements to reduce costs. Was that just part of your general duties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember some of the progress, but we did make good progress, I remember that much. I made a speech at each of the annual meetings, and there was about four or five of them. We set goals for the Centers. I think we did fairly well in that area.

[Assistant] I also read that you created a Center Automatic Data Planning [ADP] Steering Committee.

[User] I might have.

[Assistant] You don’t have any memories about that? I think it was to review the current and future ADP requirements to reduce costs. Was that just part of your general duties?

[User] That was part of the regular duties, yes.

[Assistant] The Center construction of facilities planning process.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I might have.

[Assistant] You don’t have any memories about that? I think it was to review the current and future ADP requirements to reduce costs. Was that just part of your general duties?

[User] That was part of the regular duties, yes.

[Assistant] The Center construction of facilities planning process.

[User] Yes, that was an interesting one because Gerry evidently wasn’t interested in that, so I went to Headquarters a couple of times and advocated a number of new buildings and different changes at JSC. That was a very rewarding experience, not only dealing with the people in the other Centers and in Headquarters, but in getting the information from the people around JSC.\n\n In fact, the first thing I did when I got here, in July, was I took a tour. It took about [three] months and I went and spent hours at each organization. They told me what they did and so forth, and that was very helpful when it came time to see what their needs were as far as facilities went. So I thought that was a very rewarding part of my time. In fact, some of it didn’t come to fruition until I’d left, in [19]’87, ’88. In fact, I don’t know where it is right now, but the long-range planning guide, too, came out after I left.

[Assistant] You had a part in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was part of the regular duties, yes.

[Assistant] The Center construction of facilities planning process.

[User] Yes, that was an interesting one because Gerry evidently wasn’t interested in that, so I went to Headquarters a couple of times and advocated a number of new buildings and different changes at JSC. That was a very rewarding experience, not only dealing with the people in the other Centers and in Headquarters, but in getting the information from the people around JSC.\n\n In fact, the first thing I did when I got here, in July, was I took a tour. It took about [three] months and I went and spent hours at each organization. They told me what they did and so forth, and that was very helpful when it came time to see what their needs were as far as facilities went. So I thought that was a very rewarding part of my time. In fact, some of it didn’t come to fruition until I’d left, in [19]’87, ’88. In fact, I don’t know where it is right now, but the long-range planning guide, too, came out after I left.

[Assistant] You had a part in that?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I was chairman of that. They sent me a copy of the brochure. It was very nice.

[Assistant] What sort of buildings did you advocate building and what type of changes did you make before that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was an interesting one because Gerry evidently wasn’t interested in that, so I went to Headquarters a couple of times and advocated a number of new buildings and different changes at JSC. That was a very rewarding experience, not only dealing with the people in the other Centers and in Headquarters, but in getting the information from the people around JSC.\n\n In fact, the first thing I did when I got here, in July, was I took a tour. It took about [three] months and I went and spent hours at each organization. They told me what they did and so forth, and that was very helpful when it came time to see what their needs were as far as facilities went. So I thought that was a very rewarding part of my time. In fact, some of it didn’t come to fruition until I’d left, in [19]’87, ’88. In fact, I don’t know where it is right now, but the long-range planning guide, too, came out after I left.

[Assistant] You had a part in that?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I was chairman of that. They sent me a copy of the brochure. It was very nice.

[Assistant] What sort of buildings did you advocate building and what type of changes did you make before that?

[User] Well, let’s see. There was a Thermal Protection Facility, TPS. I don’t know if it was arc jet or what, but I remember advocating that for a couple of years. Didn’t make it the first year and then it did the second. I can’t remember all the facilities at this point in time, but there was an antenna facility and there was a WETF [Weightless Environment Training Facility] and so forth. We tried to keep the facilities actually going, and we got our share of the overall budget for the years that I was involved.

[Assistant] While you were there and as part of your day-to-day activities, did you have anything to do with the astronaut selection coming in during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, I was chairman of that. They sent me a copy of the brochure. It was very nice.

[Assistant] What sort of buildings did you advocate building and what type of changes did you make before that?

[User] Well, let’s see. There was a Thermal Protection Facility, TPS. I don’t know if it was arc jet or what, but I remember advocating that for a couple of years. Didn’t make it the first year and then it did the second. I can’t remember all the facilities at this point in time, but there was an antenna facility and there was a WETF [Weightless Environment Training Facility] and so forth. We tried to keep the facilities actually going, and we got our share of the overall budget for the years that I was involved.

[Assistant] While you were there and as part of your day-to-day activities, did you have anything to do with the astronaut selection coming in during that time?

[User] No, not the selection of the astronauts at all. I didn’t have anything to do with that.

[Assistant] What about the budget, in dealing with NASA’s and JSC’s budget during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let’s see. There was a Thermal Protection Facility, TPS. I don’t know if it was arc jet or what, but I remember advocating that for a couple of years. Didn’t make it the first year and then it did the second. I can’t remember all the facilities at this point in time, but there was an antenna facility and there was a WETF [Weightless Environment Training Facility] and so forth. We tried to keep the facilities actually going, and we got our share of the overall budget for the years that I was involved.

[Assistant] While you were there and as part of your day-to-day activities, did you have anything to do with the astronaut selection coming in during that time?

[User] No, not the selection of the astronauts at all. I didn’t have anything to do with that.

[Assistant] What about the budget, in dealing with NASA’s and JSC’s budget during that time period?

[User] Well, the budget at that time was $2 billion, I remember that, and I was very much involved in the budget allocation and how it was spent, and advocating for the budget at Headquarters, both at the Shuttle office as well as Code R [Office of Aerospace Technology] and Code S [Office of Space Science], [and] some of the other offices up there, so that took a great deal of my time, actually.

[Assistant] Manpower planning or procurement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not the selection of the astronauts at all. I didn’t have anything to do with that.

[Assistant] What about the budget, in dealing with NASA’s and JSC’s budget during that time period?

[User] Well, the budget at that time was $2 billion, I remember that, and I was very much involved in the budget allocation and how it was spent, and advocating for the budget at Headquarters, both at the Shuttle office as well as Code R [Office of Aerospace Technology] and Code S [Office of Space Science], [and] some of the other offices up there, so that took a great deal of my time, actually.

[Assistant] Manpower planning or procurement?

[User] Manpower planning and procurement. In fact, I was the Procurement Chief for several awards and said what the various subcontractors and contractors would make for a given period of time. They were evaluated by committees, and then I was the Award Chairman or something. I remember doing that.

[Assistant] Anything else come to mind during that time, prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , that you’d like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the budget at that time was $2 billion, I remember that, and I was very much involved in the budget allocation and how it was spent, and advocating for the budget at Headquarters, both at the Shuttle office as well as Code R [Office of Aerospace Technology] and Code S [Office of Space Science], [and] some of the other offices up there, so that took a great deal of my time, actually.

[Assistant] Manpower planning or procurement?

[User] Manpower planning and procurement. In fact, I was the Procurement Chief for several awards and said what the various subcontractors and contractors would make for a given period of time. They were evaluated by committees, and then I was the Award Chairman or something. I remember doing that.

[Assistant] Anything else come to mind during that time, prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , that you’d like to mention?

[User] No.

[Assistant] How do you feel the\n\n Challenger\n\n affected your career with NASA, if at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Manpower planning and procurement. In fact, I was the Procurement Chief for several awards and said what the various subcontractors and contractors would make for a given period of time. They were evaluated by committees, and then I was the Award Chairman or something. I remember doing that.

[Assistant] Anything else come to mind during that time, prior to\n\n Challenger\n\n , that you’d like to mention?

[User] No.

[Assistant] How do you feel the\n\n Challenger\n\n affected your career with NASA, if at all?

[User] Well, I left NASA in [19]’87. So I had made the decision to leave when Aaron Cohen became Center Director. I resigned that day and he said, well, he would replace me, but if I wanted a year to look for a job, I could. So I did. I put out a lot of résumés, and had three in Los Angeles area, and decided to go with the least [money] of the three, because it was all mostly aeronautics. It was the Skunk Works at Lockheed [Aircraft Corporation] at the time. So that’s where I went.

[Assistant] What led to that decision to leave NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] How do you feel the\n\n Challenger\n\n affected your career with NASA, if at all?

[User] Well, I left NASA in [19]’87. So I had made the decision to leave when Aaron Cohen became Center Director. I resigned that day and he said, well, he would replace me, but if I wanted a year to look for a job, I could. So I did. I put out a lot of résumés, and had three in Los Angeles area, and decided to go with the least [money] of the three, because it was all mostly aeronautics. It was the Skunk Works at Lockheed [Aircraft Corporation] at the time. So that’s where I went.

[Assistant] What led to that decision to leave NASA?

[User] Well, I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a great deal to do with it. Plus, I didn’t get the Center Director’s position. But I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a—I was in a very bad state of mind at that time.

[Assistant] Which is perfectly understandable, after an accident and having to go through what you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I left NASA in [19]’87. So I had made the decision to leave when Aaron Cohen became Center Director. I resigned that day and he said, well, he would replace me, but if I wanted a year to look for a job, I could. So I did. I put out a lot of résumés, and had three in Los Angeles area, and decided to go with the least [money] of the three, because it was all mostly aeronautics. It was the Skunk Works at Lockheed [Aircraft Corporation] at the time. So that’s where I went.

[Assistant] What led to that decision to leave NASA?

[User] Well, I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a great deal to do with it. Plus, I didn’t get the Center Director’s position. But I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a—I was in a very bad state of mind at that time.

[Assistant] Which is perfectly understandable, after an accident and having to go through what you did.

[User] Well, it was interesting. When we had a memorial and President—at that time—[Ronald] Reagan came down and spoke, Bill Graham came down, but his wife took care of making all the arrangements. That was kind of strange, I thought. They operated out of my office up on the eighth floor of Building 1. But that was a trying experience, just arranging the whole memorial and the fly-by, etc., and setting it up. He gave a very excellent speech, I thought, and we had everybody there, but I just thought it was very strange that Bill Graham didn’t take a more active role in it.

[Assistant] Did you actually arrange the memorial service yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a great deal to do with it. Plus, I didn’t get the Center Director’s position. But I think\n\n Challenger\n\n had a—I was in a very bad state of mind at that time.

[Assistant] Which is perfectly understandable, after an accident and having to go through what you did.

[User] Well, it was interesting. When we had a memorial and President—at that time—[Ronald] Reagan came down and spoke, Bill Graham came down, but his wife took care of making all the arrangements. That was kind of strange, I thought. They operated out of my office up on the eighth floor of Building 1. But that was a trying experience, just arranging the whole memorial and the fly-by, etc., and setting it up. He gave a very excellent speech, I thought, and we had everybody there, but I just thought it was very strange that Bill Graham didn’t take a more active role in it.

[Assistant] Did you actually arrange the memorial service yourself?

[User] Well, myself and his wife.

[Assistant] The two of you together. Is there anything else about that time period that you’d like to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was interesting. When we had a memorial and President—at that time—[Ronald] Reagan came down and spoke, Bill Graham came down, but his wife took care of making all the arrangements. That was kind of strange, I thought. They operated out of my office up on the eighth floor of Building 1. But that was a trying experience, just arranging the whole memorial and the fly-by, etc., and setting it up. He gave a very excellent speech, I thought, and we had everybody there, but I just thought it was very strange that Bill Graham didn’t take a more active role in it.

[Assistant] Did you actually arrange the memorial service yourself?

[User] Well, myself and his wife.

[Assistant] The two of you together. Is there anything else about that time period that you’d like to talk about?

[User] Not that I can remember right now. I kind of block it out of my mind.

[Assistant] Which is understandable. Why don’t we go back to some of the earlier part of your career. You started working at Langley right out of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chris Kraft. He was from VPI [Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg, Virginia]. He arranged to have us all get overtime for the Saturdays and Sundays and holidays we worked during that six weeks. And we worked like one holiday—[Memorial Day]. But, that was an interesting scenario. None of the four flew, on a computer. The reason that one won was because of past experience, Rockwell. They weren’t the lead technically or low cost. Then after they’d picked a winner, then they took the best of all four of them and put them together and made a new base line that flew. That’s kind of an interesting scenario.

[Assistant] It is very interesting.

[User] That was in [19]’72, which was about nine years before the first flight, [19]’81.\n\n I graduated with [Richard H.] Dick Truly [who flew on that flight. The other astronaut on that flight was John W.Young].

[Assistant] Oh, really.

[User] [Dick Truly became] an Administrator of NASA…. He was an astronaut—well, he had left, I guess right before I came, or shortly thereafter. He’s an interesting guy. He was a rear admiral in the Navy, but we both graduated from Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia] in [19]’59. He was the head of the Navy ROTC and I was the head of the Air Force ROTC, plus, we were both AEs, aeronautical engineers. There was only thirty-five of us that graduated that year, ’59. He was one. He’s done quite well. I lost track of him after he went to Colorado and he was head of some DOE [United States Department of Energy] research outfit, then I lost track of him after that.

[Assistant] When you first began at Langley, what exactly were you working on for those first few years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in [19]’72, which was about nine years before the first flight, [19]’81.\n\n I graduated with [Richard H.] Dick Truly [who flew on that flight. The other astronaut on that flight was John W.Young].

[Assistant] Oh, really.

[User] [Dick Truly became] an Administrator of NASA…. He was an astronaut—well, he had left, I guess right before I came, or shortly thereafter. He’s an interesting guy. He was a rear admiral in the Navy, but we both graduated from Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia] in [19]’59. He was the head of the Navy ROTC and I was the head of the Air Force ROTC, plus, we were both AEs, aeronautical engineers. There was only thirty-five of us that graduated that year, ’59. He was one. He’s done quite well. I lost track of him after he went to Colorado and he was head of some DOE [United States Department of Energy] research outfit, then I lost track of him after that.

[Assistant] When you first began at Langley, what exactly were you working on for those first few years?

[User] The first few years I was in hypersonics [aeroelasticity]. I was working in a wind tunnel, a series of wind tunnels, as a matter of fact. But mostly out of a helium blow-down tunnel, and we were experimenting with far-out stuff. I worked on a variable [-swept wing]—did subsonic, transonic, supersonic variable swept-wing flutter study. It was one of the reports I wrote. That was interesting. That was one the first things that I did at NASA.

[Assistant] Can you explain a little bit of what a flutter study is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Dick Truly became] an Administrator of NASA…. He was an astronaut—well, he had left, I guess right before I came, or shortly thereafter. He’s an interesting guy. He was a rear admiral in the Navy, but we both graduated from Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia] in [19]’59. He was the head of the Navy ROTC and I was the head of the Air Force ROTC, plus, we were both AEs, aeronautical engineers. There was only thirty-five of us that graduated that year, ’59. He was one. He’s done quite well. I lost track of him after he went to Colorado and he was head of some DOE [United States Department of Energy] research outfit, then I lost track of him after that.

[Assistant] When you first began at Langley, what exactly were you working on for those first few years?

[User] The first few years I was in hypersonics [aeroelasticity]. I was working in a wind tunnel, a series of wind tunnels, as a matter of fact. But mostly out of a helium blow-down tunnel, and we were experimenting with far-out stuff. I worked on a variable [-swept wing]—did subsonic, transonic, supersonic variable swept-wing flutter study. It was one of the reports I wrote. That was interesting. That was one the first things that I did at NASA.

[Assistant] Can you explain a little bit of what a flutter study is?

[User] A flutter study—we ran a wind-tunnel program in three different tunnels, and we tried to find the flutter points. In other words, there’s a flutter index parameter versus Mach number, and we plotted it over the whole Mach number range from subsonic, transonic, to supersonic.

[Assistant] In [19]’67, you went back to get a master’s degree?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first few years I was in hypersonics [aeroelasticity]. I was working in a wind tunnel, a series of wind tunnels, as a matter of fact. But mostly out of a helium blow-down tunnel, and we were experimenting with far-out stuff. I worked on a variable [-swept wing]—did subsonic, transonic, supersonic variable swept-wing flutter study. It was one of the reports I wrote. That was interesting. That was one the first things that I did at NASA.

[Assistant] Can you explain a little bit of what a flutter study is?

[User] A flutter study—we ran a wind-tunnel program in three different tunnels, and we tried to find the flutter points. In other words, there’s a flutter index parameter versus Mach number, and we plotted it over the whole Mach number range from subsonic, transonic, to supersonic.

[Assistant] In [19]’67, you went back to get a master’s degree?

[User] Yes, at VPI. Well, I actually went in [19]’63, [19]’64. I got my degree in ’67. I took a thesis route, so I wrote a thesis and it took several years for me to write it. But I was actually there in ’63 and ’64, in Blacksburg [Virginia].

[Assistant] What prompted you to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A flutter study—we ran a wind-tunnel program in three different tunnels, and we tried to find the flutter points. In other words, there’s a flutter index parameter versus Mach number, and we plotted it over the whole Mach number range from subsonic, transonic, to supersonic.

[Assistant] In [19]’67, you went back to get a master’s degree?

[User] Yes, at VPI. Well, I actually went in [19]’63, [19]’64. I got my degree in ’67. I took a thesis route, so I wrote a thesis and it took several years for me to write it. But I was actually there in ’63 and ’64, in Blacksburg [Virginia].

[Assistant] What prompted you to do that?

[User] I was bored more than anything else. Also, I was twenty-six, and I just figured that I needed to go back to school. I went up there in aeronautical engineering, and they only offered two courses in aeronautical engineering, the next semester, so I walked across the street and transferred to engineering mechanics, and that’s what I got a degree in. But I took most of my—air elasticity, hypersonics—most of my electives in aerospace.

[Assistant] You also worked on the aircraft tire and breaking problems on wet runways? Is that true?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, at VPI. Well, I actually went in [19]’63, [19]’64. I got my degree in ’67. I took a thesis route, so I wrote a thesis and it took several years for me to write it. But I was actually there in ’63 and ’64, in Blacksburg [Virginia].

[Assistant] What prompted you to do that?

[User] I was bored more than anything else. Also, I was twenty-six, and I just figured that I needed to go back to school. I went up there in aeronautical engineering, and they only offered two courses in aeronautical engineering, the next semester, so I walked across the street and transferred to engineering mechanics, and that’s what I got a degree in. But I took most of my—air elasticity, hypersonics—most of my electives in aerospace.

[Assistant] You also worked on the aircraft tire and breaking problems on wet runways? Is that true?

[User] Well, in [19]’71, I became a section head of the Flight Load Section. In [19]’73 or [19]’74, I became a branch head and then I became a Director. I skipped the division level, became a Director. One of the parts that was under me in the branch and the directorate was the Landing Loads Track, at Langley. They did the grooving at the Cape, and so forth, for Shuttle. They’re a very renowned group. They were on every U.S. domestic aircraft accident investigation, because they had a little car that would go down the runways in damp and wet and icy conditions and measure the friction. So, yes, I was in that group, but, I mean, that group was under me.

[Assistant] Did you also plan the Space Shuttle Approach and Landing Tests, or have anything to do with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was bored more than anything else. Also, I was twenty-six, and I just figured that I needed to go back to school. I went up there in aeronautical engineering, and they only offered two courses in aeronautical engineering, the next semester, so I walked across the street and transferred to engineering mechanics, and that’s what I got a degree in. But I took most of my—air elasticity, hypersonics—most of my electives in aerospace.

[Assistant] You also worked on the aircraft tire and breaking problems on wet runways? Is that true?

[User] Well, in [19]’71, I became a section head of the Flight Load Section. In [19]’73 or [19]’74, I became a branch head and then I became a Director. I skipped the division level, became a Director. One of the parts that was under me in the branch and the directorate was the Landing Loads Track, at Langley. They did the grooving at the Cape, and so forth, for Shuttle. They’re a very renowned group. They were on every U.S. domestic aircraft accident investigation, because they had a little car that would go down the runways in damp and wet and icy conditions and measure the friction. So, yes, I was in that group, but, I mean, that group was under me.

[Assistant] Did you also plan the Space Shuttle Approach and Landing Tests, or have anything to do with that?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] In [19]’79, you went to NASA Headquarters, as we mentioned earlier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in [19]’71, I became a section head of the Flight Load Section. In [19]’73 or [19]’74, I became a branch head and then I became a Director. I skipped the division level, became a Director. One of the parts that was under me in the branch and the directorate was the Landing Loads Track, at Langley. They did the grooving at the Cape, and so forth, for Shuttle. They’re a very renowned group. They were on every U.S. domestic aircraft accident investigation, because they had a little car that would go down the runways in damp and wet and icy conditions and measure the friction. So, yes, I was in that group, but, I mean, that group was under me.

[Assistant] Did you also plan the Space Shuttle Approach and Landing Tests, or have anything to do with that?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] In [19]’79, you went to NASA Headquarters, as we mentioned earlier.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that come about, or that opportunity happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] In [19]’79, you went to NASA Headquarters, as we mentioned earlier.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that come about, or that opportunity happen?

[User] That was some kind of a training program. I went up there for a year, worked in Code R. I was Manager of Structures [Division] for one year. I don’t know how it came about. I got called in by the Center Director, saying he wants me to go to Headquarters, “This is a steppingstone,” etc., etc. So I went. I had just moved into a new house, so I rented the house and went up there and lived in Reston [Virginia], which was way out. But I found that the cost of living in Washington, D.C., is directly proportional to the distance that you have to travel. So I was almost out to [Washington] Dulles [International Airport] before I could find a place that I could afford.

[Assistant] So what were your duties in that position?