[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did that come about, or that opportunity happen?

[User] That was some kind of a training program. I went up there for a year, worked in Code R. I was Manager of Structures [Division] for one year. I don’t know how it came about. I got called in by the Center Director, saying he wants me to go to Headquarters, “This is a steppingstone,” etc., etc. So I went. I had just moved into a new house, so I rented the house and went up there and lived in Reston [Virginia], which was way out. But I found that the cost of living in Washington, D.C., is directly proportional to the distance that you have to travel. So I was almost out to [Washington] Dulles [International Airport] before I could find a place that I could afford.

[Assistant] So what were your duties in that position?

[User] They were primarily to advocate, to get monies out of Code R, out of Code R’s total budget, for the Code R program at the various centers. So that’s what I did, primarily, for the whole year, is advocate. We spoke to Congress, made presentations. Tried to get more money, is about the easiest way of putting it, and then allocate it to the Centers. Most of it went to Langley, Lewis [NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field, Cleveland, Ohio], and [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], because they were the Code R Centers at that time, and, well, [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California].

[Assistant] Did you play a role in the Technology Readiness Assessment during that time when you were at Headquarters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was some kind of a training program. I went up there for a year, worked in Code R. I was Manager of Structures [Division] for one year. I don’t know how it came about. I got called in by the Center Director, saying he wants me to go to Headquarters, “This is a steppingstone,” etc., etc. So I went. I had just moved into a new house, so I rented the house and went up there and lived in Reston [Virginia], which was way out. But I found that the cost of living in Washington, D.C., is directly proportional to the distance that you have to travel. So I was almost out to [Washington] Dulles [International Airport] before I could find a place that I could afford.

[Assistant] So what were your duties in that position?

[User] They were primarily to advocate, to get monies out of Code R, out of Code R’s total budget, for the Code R program at the various centers. So that’s what I did, primarily, for the whole year, is advocate. We spoke to Congress, made presentations. Tried to get more money, is about the easiest way of putting it, and then allocate it to the Centers. Most of it went to Langley, Lewis [NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field, Cleveland, Ohio], and [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], because they were the Code R Centers at that time, and, well, [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California].

[Assistant] Did you play a role in the Technology Readiness Assessment during that time when you were at Headquarters?

[User] Technology Readiness Assessment?

[Assistant] For the Shuttle Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were primarily to advocate, to get monies out of Code R, out of Code R’s total budget, for the Code R program at the various centers. So that’s what I did, primarily, for the whole year, is advocate. We spoke to Congress, made presentations. Tried to get more money, is about the easiest way of putting it, and then allocate it to the Centers. Most of it went to Langley, Lewis [NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field, Cleveland, Ohio], and [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], because they were the Code R Centers at that time, and, well, [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California].

[Assistant] Did you play a role in the Technology Readiness Assessment during that time when you were at Headquarters?

[User] Technology Readiness Assessment?

[Assistant] For the Shuttle Program.

[User] Oh, no, no.

[Assistant] Okay. Was that when you were back at Langley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Technology Readiness Assessment?

[Assistant] For the Shuttle Program.

[User] Oh, no, no.

[Assistant] Okay. Was that when you were back at Langley?

[User] That was before I went up there. Yes, that was an interesting few years. I forget the years that was, but that was quite a bit before I went to Headquarters. The Technology Assessment Committee culminated in a meeting at Lewis, which is now Glenn, where they presented all the material and voted whether it was ready or not. Everybody thought they were ready. It was unanimous. It was in winter, I remember, in Lewis, because there was a lot of ice on the ground, and snow, and when we took off in the NASA plane, we were heading down the runway and we skidded sideways. So then the pilot said, “Well, we’re going to go around and try again.” [Laughter] And let me tell you, that time, we held on, but we made it off all right.\n\n There was another guy, Harry Runyan, was head of the Technology Assessment, and he retired and he left it to a fellow, David Stephens, who was an up-and-coming young guy out of Stanford Sloan [Program], and he was in an automobile accident. So I was in the right place at the right time, or something, so I got it, made a presentation and so forth, and went from there.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that process, the assessment process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was run from various—let’s see. Headquarters headed it up. There was teams of people that went across the Centers. Some were at Langley, some were at JSC, some were at Marshall, [Ames, Glenn,] some were head of them, but each of the teams had on them people from all the Centers. Each of the Centers did something, whether it was a wind-tunnel test or analysis, to see if the technology was ready for Shuttle. We at Langley did a lot of flutter studies, ground wind-load studies. That was the structural dynamics part. In the structures part, they did a lot of TPS, tile work and the arc jets, and so forth, panel flutter, and so forth. Max Faget had a straight-wing orbiter at that time, so that’s what their baseline was. It wasn’t until much later that we got what’s presently the orbiter.\n\n So we went through and did various technology assessments of the various configurations in each of these groups, across the board. Then they’d meet, oh, I don’t know, about once every four months or six months, and report their findings. Then they put out monthly reports. I remember that. That’s how we got to the Space Shuttle. That was a long process. That was about five [or] six years.

[Assistant] Did it begin in the early seventies or mid-seventies?

[User] Well, yes, it must have. It must have been during the seventies sometime, because—well, in [19]’72, we had a technical evaluation, so it was the late sixties and early seventies. Then I went to Headquarters in [19]’79, so it had to be early.

[Assistant] After you came back from Headquarters, you were the Special Assistant to the Chief of the Structural Mechanics Division at that point.

[User] Oh, that’s right, yes. I forgot about that.

[Assistant] What were your duties in that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, it must have. It must have been during the seventies sometime, because—well, in [19]’72, we had a technical evaluation, so it was the late sixties and early seventies. Then I went to Headquarters in [19]’79, so it had to be early.

[Assistant] After you came back from Headquarters, you were the Special Assistant to the Chief of the Structural Mechanics Division at that point.

[User] Oh, that’s right, yes. I forgot about that.

[Assistant] What were your duties in that position?

[User] Well, most of the time I was out at Rockwell doing the Shuttle problem, where [the tiles] all fell off. In fact, that was about the whole thing I did there. I didn’t have any—“duties as assigned”—from Roger Anderson, who was the Division Chief. I think that was just a holding pattern.

[Assistant] Tell us about the TPS system and your work with that and the final clearance for STS-1.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Porosity in the composite tank. That’s why a liner would have fixed it, and you could have taken the weight out somewhere else. In fact, that’s the way the report wrote, but they buried the report, or they didn’t put it out for a long time, and when they did put it out, they’d already made the decision to cancel it. But that, to me, was the way to go. More durable.

[Assistant] Tell us about STS-1. Were you able to see the launch?

[User] No, I didn’t see the launch—well, I saw it on television. I didn’t see the launch of STS-1 at all. I was at Langley. This was [19]’81, so it was a couple years before I came down here…. This has all the things while I was at JSC, all the launches, except for the first five. One, two, three, four, five, then I started with this one. I think that was in April.

[Assistant] What did you do after the STS-1 launch, during that time period and before you came to JSC, at Langley? What were your duties?

[User] I was the Director of Structures. Structures at that time was made up of Structures, Materials, Acoustics, and Aeroelasticity Divisions. Four divisions. So it was about 400 people, and we had—I don’t know what the budget at that time was. But that’s what I was doing between [19]’80 and [19]’83.

[Assistant] Having worked at Langley for almost twenty-five years, and you did mention the difference in the culture between Langley and JSC, maybe you can explain a little bit about those cultures and tell us what the differences were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t see the launch—well, I saw it on television. I didn’t see the launch of STS-1 at all. I was at Langley. This was [19]’81, so it was a couple years before I came down here…. This has all the things while I was at JSC, all the launches, except for the first five. One, two, three, four, five, then I started with this one. I think that was in April.

[Assistant] What did you do after the STS-1 launch, during that time period and before you came to JSC, at Langley? What were your duties?

[User] I was the Director of Structures. Structures at that time was made up of Structures, Materials, Acoustics, and Aeroelasticity Divisions. Four divisions. So it was about 400 people, and we had—I don’t know what the budget at that time was. But that’s what I was doing between [19]’80 and [19]’83.

[Assistant] Having worked at Langley for almost twenty-five years, and you did mention the difference in the culture between Langley and JSC, maybe you can explain a little bit about those cultures and tell us what the differences were.

[User] Well, the culture at Langley was one of, you did far-out work, not near-term work, and it was much more researching. JSC was much more near-term, operational, and so forth, except for Space Station. It was interesting. We started Space Station in [19]’84. It was supposed to be $8 billion. They stopped counting after twenty. It just went wild. While I think that that was good for JSC and a growing experience, I think it was not so good in other ways.

[Assistant] You mentioned that one of the objectives of you going to JSC was to bring some of that culture. Do you feel that you accomplished that objective?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the Director of Structures. Structures at that time was made up of Structures, Materials, Acoustics, and Aeroelasticity Divisions. Four divisions. So it was about 400 people, and we had—I don’t know what the budget at that time was. But that’s what I was doing between [19]’80 and [19]’83.

[Assistant] Having worked at Langley for almost twenty-five years, and you did mention the difference in the culture between Langley and JSC, maybe you can explain a little bit about those cultures and tell us what the differences were.

[User] Well, the culture at Langley was one of, you did far-out work, not near-term work, and it was much more researching. JSC was much more near-term, operational, and so forth, except for Space Station. It was interesting. We started Space Station in [19]’84. It was supposed to be $8 billion. They stopped counting after twenty. It just went wild. While I think that that was good for JSC and a growing experience, I think it was not so good in other ways.

[Assistant] You mentioned that one of the objectives of you going to JSC was to bring some of that culture. Do you feel that you accomplished that objective?

[User] Well, we started Space Station, and while I was here, at least, we made progress. It wasn’t till after I left that they went after the work packages and Marshall got control.

[Assistant] Moving into those management roles, as an engineer—and you worked as an engineer for several years before you started moving into that—how did you adopt your management style, and what is your management style?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the culture at Langley was one of, you did far-out work, not near-term work, and it was much more researching. JSC was much more near-term, operational, and so forth, except for Space Station. It was interesting. We started Space Station in [19]’84. It was supposed to be $8 billion. They stopped counting after twenty. It just went wild. While I think that that was good for JSC and a growing experience, I think it was not so good in other ways.

[Assistant] You mentioned that one of the objectives of you going to JSC was to bring some of that culture. Do you feel that you accomplished that objective?

[User] Well, we started Space Station, and while I was here, at least, we made progress. It wasn’t till after I left that they went after the work packages and Marshall got control.

[Assistant] Moving into those management roles, as an engineer—and you worked as an engineer for several years before you started moving into that—how did you adopt your management style, and what is your management style?

[User] What is my management style? Well, I guess I like a lot of participation, so I think I’m a participant manager, where I kind of gather people and let them do their own thing and, you know, guide them, set policy and so forth, but let them figure out how to do it. Actually, people don’t realize it, but when JSC started in [19]’62, the average age was in the twenties. Now it’s way up there. I won’t even guess, but it’s pretty far up there. So it’s aging, and I think that’s a shame, because the other centers aren’t like that, except maybe for Marshall.

[Assistant] Did you have any issues coming from an engineering background into management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we started Space Station, and while I was here, at least, we made progress. It wasn’t till after I left that they went after the work packages and Marshall got control.

[Assistant] Moving into those management roles, as an engineer—and you worked as an engineer for several years before you started moving into that—how did you adopt your management style, and what is your management style?

[User] What is my management style? Well, I guess I like a lot of participation, so I think I’m a participant manager, where I kind of gather people and let them do their own thing and, you know, guide them, set policy and so forth, but let them figure out how to do it. Actually, people don’t realize it, but when JSC started in [19]’62, the average age was in the twenties. Now it’s way up there. I won’t even guess, but it’s pretty far up there. So it’s aging, and I think that’s a shame, because the other centers aren’t like that, except maybe for Marshall.

[Assistant] Did you have any issues coming from an engineering background into management?

[User] Not really, no. It was a natural progression. I went from section to branch head and on up. I think I learned as I went. I think, if you remember Management 102, it has four things: planning, execution, organization, and control as the four things. I think as you get higher in the organization, the planning gets more, the organization gets slightly more, the control is decreasing, and execution is decreasing [a lot]. So I think that’s kind of what you’ve got to know to step in from an engineering, where you do all of it yourself, into something higher, in management.

[Assistant] You worked under a lot of different directors, both at Headquarters over everything, and then at JSC and at Langley. Any specific memories about any of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct. In Burbank [California]. And that was the lowest-paying job that I had an offer from. I only had three out of five offers [in California]. [McDonnell] Douglas [Corporation] in Long Beach [California] offered me one, [Northrup Grumman Corporation, Skunk Works, and] Boeing [Company] in Seattle [Washington]. My wife didn’t want to go to Seattle because it rains too much, so we decided on Los Angeles. You’ve got to remember, Los Angeles, the cost of living is about three times higher than here, so we had sticker shock for the first six months. But we stayed there from [19]‘87 to [19]‘94, then we moved in 1994 to Palmdale [California], where Lockheed owned all of its own facilities, and we became a company.\n\n Then they bought GD [General Dynamics Corporation], then they merged with Martin [Marietta Corporation]. I stayed in the same position the whole time, but it was kind of traumatic. Then we went through a year—we were going to merge with Northrup Grumman [Corporation], but we didn’t, because the government wouldn’t let us.

[Assistant] What was your position?

[User] Vice President of Engineering.

[Assistant] I have a couple more questions, but before I get to those, I thought I would see if Rebecca or Jennifer have any questions at this time.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I just had a general question. You worked for NASA for some time, and you also worked as an EEO [Equal Employment Opportunities] officer. I was wondering if you could talk in generalities about how treatment of or perceptions of minorities and women changed at the Centers over time. If you could talk about that, the hiring.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Vice President of Engineering.

[Assistant] I have a couple more questions, but before I get to those, I thought I would see if Rebecca or Jennifer have any questions at this time.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I just had a general question. You worked for NASA for some time, and you also worked as an EEO [Equal Employment Opportunities] officer. I was wondering if you could talk in generalities about how treatment of or perceptions of minorities and women changed at the Centers over time. If you could talk about that, the hiring.

[User] When I graduated from college in [19]’59, I went to an all-boys’ school, Georgia Tech. And now, today, Georgia Tech is 50 percent women and 50 percent men, roughly, and it’s not that much bigger, really. I guess it was 6,000 to 12,000, so it gained 6,000. The first two women graduated in my class in ’59, but they had transferred in as upper students. So I’ve seen, from ’59 till today, a great change in both government as well as industry, in females and minorities. I think that we’ve got to diversify in order to stay ahead of the technology. I think there’s not enough people if you just look at the men, so you have to go for minorities and women in order to continue to grow.\n\n Everywhere I went, first it was quotas, which I wasn’t against, but then they did away with the quotas and so forth, and it’s still going on in great strides, and, I think, rightfully so. So I think in the last fifty years, it’s really come a long way. You’ve heard the commercial, “You’ve come a long way, baby.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] I had another question. You mentioned the densification process, and you had mentioned that there were several ideas that were floated in the early seventies. When you came across this problem with the tiles, right before STS-1, were there any attempts made to change the tiles and use one of those other processes that engineers had designed, or at least conceptually designed on paper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, the reason being you had to freeze in time the technology and choose it in order to build it, because it took so long. They thought they were building a robust system. When they didn’t and had to densify, go back and densify, that was the white side of the tile, where you glue it on with RTV, that took about a year. So while there was a number of stronger, if you will, lighter—in fact, that was the reason why they picked ceramics over metallics, weightwise, they were about equal, but they thought that the ceramics as a technology was further ahead. That’s really why they chose it. I think that was a mistake, in looking back at it, but I probably voted for it.

[Assistant] Can you tell us how the process of densification came about?

[User] I don’t really know—well, I forget how many people were on the committee now, but they were working with Rockwell folks at Downey [California], for six weeks, so it was a combination of the Downey folks coming up with this densification as well as the team. So, you know, it was hard to decide whose the actual idea was.

[Assistant]
Okay. Those are all the questions that I had. Thank you.

I just had one. It goes back to the time when you were at JSC and Gerry Griffin announced his resignation. Between that time and the time that Aaron Cohen came on board, you were in a very volatile position because you were in the midst of these Center Directors, but yet had lots of responsibility due to the events that were occurring during that time period. Could you just share with us about those times, about how you were able to work those transitions for these Directors so that they were able to take on those jobs and maybe the difficulties of you trying to do your duties as well as helping them come on board?

[User] Helping them come on—you mean like—

[Assistant] Like Mr. Moore coming in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t really know—well, I forget how many people were on the committee now, but they were working with Rockwell folks at Downey [California], for six weeks, so it was a combination of the Downey folks coming up with this densification as well as the team. So, you know, it was hard to decide whose the actual idea was.

[Assistant]
Okay. Those are all the questions that I had. Thank you.

I just had one. It goes back to the time when you were at JSC and Gerry Griffin announced his resignation. Between that time and the time that Aaron Cohen came on board, you were in a very volatile position because you were in the midst of these Center Directors, but yet had lots of responsibility due to the events that were occurring during that time period. Could you just share with us about those times, about how you were able to work those transitions for these Directors so that they were able to take on those jobs and maybe the difficulties of you trying to do your duties as well as helping them come on board?

[User] Helping them come on—you mean like—

[Assistant] Like Mr. Moore coming in.

[User] Mr. Moore coming down?

[Assistant] And then Aaron Cohen moving into that position as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Helping them come on—you mean like—

[Assistant] Like Mr. Moore coming in.

[User] Mr. Moore coming down?

[Assistant] And then Aaron Cohen moving into that position as well.

[User] Well, as far as Aaron Cohen moving into position, he moved in to Moore’s position. Jesse Moore left the agency and went with someplace in Colorado. Ball Industries. He was kind of—I felt sorry for him, because he was in Headquarters and came down here as JSC Center Director, so we threw a party for him and tried to welcome him, and so forth. He was under a great deal of strain, no doubt about it, but we did everything we could to make him comfortable.\n\n I think they made a big mistake. They brought him down here, he bought a house, and then they fired him. So I think the agency made a big mistake. They should never have transferred him down here and let him buy a house and everything before letting him go. Now, those were the times—I can’t remember. He came down in the summer sometime and he was only here for like two months.

[Assistant] During that time, basically the weight of the Center operations was on your shoulders to continue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mr. Moore coming down?

[Assistant] And then Aaron Cohen moving into that position as well.

[User] Well, as far as Aaron Cohen moving into position, he moved in to Moore’s position. Jesse Moore left the agency and went with someplace in Colorado. Ball Industries. He was kind of—I felt sorry for him, because he was in Headquarters and came down here as JSC Center Director, so we threw a party for him and tried to welcome him, and so forth. He was under a great deal of strain, no doubt about it, but we did everything we could to make him comfortable.\n\n I think they made a big mistake. They brought him down here, he bought a house, and then they fired him. So I think the agency made a big mistake. They should never have transferred him down here and let him buy a house and everything before letting him go. Now, those were the times—I can’t remember. He came down in the summer sometime and he was only here for like two months.

[Assistant] During that time, basically the weight of the Center operations was on your shoulders to continue?

[User] Well, up until that time, I’d been Acting Director, and so I tried to help him in all his daily duties. Aaron Cohen kind of came up as a surprise to a lot of people. He was head of engineering at the time; he was like a Vice President. And while he had been very active in Shuttle. He had not been active in Space Station, so I don’t know if that had anything to do with it or not. But he came on all of a sudden, in October of that year, [19]’86. So I didn’t help him at all. He’d been right down the hall, so he knew the ropes, knew what was expected.

[Assistant] Were you surprised to hear that Gerry Griffin was leaving, or he had talked to you about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, up until that time, I’d been Acting Director, and so I tried to help him in all his daily duties. Aaron Cohen kind of came up as a surprise to a lot of people. He was head of engineering at the time; he was like a Vice President. And while he had been very active in Shuttle. He had not been active in Space Station, so I don’t know if that had anything to do with it or not. But he came on all of a sudden, in October of that year, [19]’86. So I didn’t help him at all. He’d been right down the hall, so he knew the ropes, knew what was expected.

[Assistant] Were you surprised to hear that Gerry Griffin was leaving, or he had talked to you about that?

[User] No, I was just as surprised as everybody else. He actually went with the Chamber of Commerce of Houston when he left. I thought it was 1 January instead of 14 January, but I could be wrong. It seemed like it was a long time, but he said when he left that they made him an offer he couldn’t refuse, so he was going to grab it. But it came as a surprise to me.

[Assistant] I was looking back over my notes and I had it under “Headquarters.” When you worked at Headquarters, you took part in testimony before Congress on the Research and Technology appropriation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of that you’d like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was just as surprised as everybody else. He actually went with the Chamber of Commerce of Houston when he left. I thought it was 1 January instead of 14 January, but I could be wrong. It seemed like it was a long time, but he said when he left that they made him an offer he couldn’t refuse, so he was going to grab it. But it came as a surprise to me.

[Assistant] I was looking back over my notes and I had it under “Headquarters.” When you worked at Headquarters, you took part in testimony before Congress on the Research and Technology appropriation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of that you’d like to share?

[User] Well, I can remember one session. I didn’t testify, but we went as backup to the head of Code R, whoever that was at the time. [Jim] Kramer, I guess. And there was only one committee member there, and he was on a platform, in the front, and he had his feet on the table, had a big cigar in his mouth, and he was reading a newspaper throughout the whole testimony. So I remember that. I can remember his name, too. He’s still there. [Laughs]

[Assistant] In that position, also did you have anything to do with the turbine-engine hot-section technology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any memories of that you’d like to share?

[User] Well, I can remember one session. I didn’t testify, but we went as backup to the head of Code R, whoever that was at the time. [Jim] Kramer, I guess. And there was only one committee member there, and he was on a platform, in the front, and he had his feet on the table, had a big cigar in his mouth, and he was reading a newspaper throughout the whole testimony. So I remember that. I can remember his name, too. He’s still there. [Laughs]

[Assistant] In that position, also did you have anything to do with the turbine-engine hot-section technology?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you explain that to us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I can remember one session. I didn’t testify, but we went as backup to the head of Code R, whoever that was at the time. [Jim] Kramer, I guess. And there was only one committee member there, and he was on a platform, in the front, and he had his feet on the table, had a big cigar in his mouth, and he was reading a newspaper throughout the whole testimony. So I remember that. I can remember his name, too. He’s still there. [Laughs]

[Assistant] In that position, also did you have anything to do with the turbine-engine hot-section technology?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you explain that to us?

[User] That was started at Glenn, and that was a big, new initiative that we sold to the Congress and a hot-section turbine business because we were trying to get more money for Glenn and this was a new initiative. We had one at every Center, but that was one that we got that year, so we set up and planned it and so forth. Yes, I remember that very dramatically.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, which was quite a long career, what do you think was your most challenging achievement, or the most challenging aspect of your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you explain that to us?

[User] That was started at Glenn, and that was a big, new initiative that we sold to the Congress and a hot-section turbine business because we were trying to get more money for Glenn and this was a new initiative. We had one at every Center, but that was one that we got that year, so we set up and planned it and so forth. Yes, I remember that very dramatically.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, which was quite a long career, what do you think was your most challenging achievement, or the most challenging aspect of your career?

[User] That’s a toughie. I thought you were going to ask that, and I have no idea, because\n\n Challenger\n\n was tough, no doubt about it. I was devastated. My morale was low, my whole feeling was down in the dumps. It took a lot to get up to go to work every day, so that, obviously, was a period of time when I remember.\n\n But as far as having fun, I had fun at Rockwell for those six weeks that we did the Shuttle tile. I had fun at the technical evaluation down here at Houston for six weeks. I had fun early in my career. So I don’t know which single one of those three would be the one, but I remember all of them.

[Assistant] When you were down, as the rest of the Center was down, after\n\n Challenger\n\n , did you see an end in sight or did you see the possibilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, after that vote came, where we were supposed to get back into flight in six months, where we tried to regain control, in fact, put a bellyband around the tank and, like I say, Lew Allen and I were the only two that voted for it, so that means there was five other Centers that voted against us, because they wanted to fix it. They wanted to wait the period of time it took to fix it, and we figured that would be the death. It didn’t turn out to be the death, but it sure took a long time.\n\n Right then and there I decided to leave, after that vote, and that vote was like two months after\n\n Challenger\n\n , so that was before Jesse Moore came down and before Aaron Cohen became—I decided to leave the agency, because I had foreseen that it was going to be a long period of time before they got back to flight.

[Assistant] What do you feel is your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Most significant accomplishment? In NASA or—oh, in NASA. Starting Space Station I think is probably my most significant one. Even though it’s gone out of control, I think it was started right.

[Assistant] Then, of course, it began with the goal of being in orbit by [19]’91 or [19]’92.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Do you feel the way it was started, when you began it, that if you had stayed on that track, that they would have achieved that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most significant accomplishment? In NASA or—oh, in NASA. Starting Space Station I think is probably my most significant one. Even though it’s gone out of control, I think it was started right.

[Assistant] Then, of course, it began with the goal of being in orbit by [19]’91 or [19]’92.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Do you feel the way it was started, when you began it, that if you had stayed on that track, that they would have achieved that?

[User] No, we would have achieved about [19]‘94, because we had originally set it challenging on purpose, and really, we had a schedule that said ’94–’95 [dollars permitting]. And it’s still only half built. Here it is 2003. It’s ridiculous.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about, that you would like to bring up, or anything that you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Do you feel the way it was started, when you began it, that if you had stayed on that track, that they would have achieved that?

[User] No, we would have achieved about [19]‘94, because we had originally set it challenging on purpose, and really, we had a schedule that said ’94–’95 [dollars permitting]. And it’s still only half built. Here it is 2003. It’s ridiculous.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about, that you would like to bring up, or anything that you can think of?

[User] Not that I can think of.

[Assistant] Okay. We’d like to thank you for participating with us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hospital, small hospital in a hospital at that time, the Accrediting Association, Joint Commission on Accreditation for Hospitals. So that would have been in 19, I started it in 1978, required a hospital to have either a librarian on staff for research or a contract with a librarian in this small hospital in Port Huron was part of a large one of the first large systems of Mercy health system. And so they hired me a few hours a week and then more hours a week. And I eventually took over continuing medical education for the physicians, licensure, you know, making the programs, not teaching, but, you know, doing that coordination and sort of built a really, I always thought a designer career because I could do really neat stuff there.

[Assistant] And and were you using computers in the early on science library in ‘78 when you joined?

[User] I went to the National Library Medicine to train for existing deadline. At that time, only librarians could because we dialed directly into the National Library of Medicine computers for Medline, which is the index medicus online. And that was in ‘82 or ‘83. And yes, I was then online with a Texas instrument 700, you know, paper all over the place, not a not a computer terminal. So yes, I was doing research for physicians in the community hospital. So not, not, not a teaching hospital. We were a community hospital. So they would come to me with, you know, I've got a patient upstairs that is diabetic and is pregnant and what do I need to you know, what articles support the treatment. I'm looking for a new procedure or that's what that's what I did, along with having books and journals on the shelf and

[Assistant] Doing research?

[User] Research for the nurses, helping them with their education administration, with making decisions. So, yeah, it was a great, a great career.

[Assistant] Right. And you worked there in the same in the same hospital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to the National Library Medicine to train for existing deadline. At that time, only librarians could because we dialed directly into the National Library of Medicine computers for Medline, which is the index medicus online. And that was in ‘82 or ‘83. And yes, I was then online with a Texas instrument 700, you know, paper all over the place, not a not a computer terminal. So yes, I was doing research for physicians in the community hospital. So not, not, not a teaching hospital. We were a community hospital. So they would come to me with, you know, I've got a patient upstairs that is diabetic and is pregnant and what do I need to you know, what articles support the treatment. I'm looking for a new procedure or that's what that's what I did, along with having books and journals on the shelf and

[Assistant] Doing research?

[User] Research for the nurses, helping them with their education administration, with making decisions. So, yeah, it was a great, a great career.

[Assistant] Right. And you worked there in the same in the same hospital?

[User] For twenty years. And then, you know, health care changed a lot. And during those twenty years and the rules and regulations for hospitals having librarians were removed. So things kind of changed. And I left the hospital and opened my own consulting business and I had

[Assistant] And when was that? What what year did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Research for the nurses, helping them with their education administration, with making decisions. So, yeah, it was a great, a great career.

[Assistant] Right. And you worked there in the same in the same hospital?

[User] For twenty years. And then, you know, health care changed a lot. And during those twenty years and the rules and regulations for hospitals having librarians were removed. So things kind of changed. And I left the hospital and opened my own consulting business and I had

[Assistant] And when was that? What what year did you?

[User] 1998. And my clients my main clients were the medical the professional medical society for the county, and I organized three hospitals to go together and fund the continuing medical education outside of the hospital, which was good because the physicians needed to choose their own educational needs, not have it influenced by the hospital administration and and then the library. I had a contract with the library to teach computer skills to adults, and that's the one that I ended up doing the most, and especially after I came back from my Peace Corps sometime in Azerbaijan, then that's the only contract that I maintain. The other ones I passed on to somebody else when I went into Peace Corps. So, yeah.

[Assistant] So that sounds like a great preparation of skills to take to a country that was just ready to go with them. So let's let's do that. Let's talk now about you. You you got us through your swearing in, if you will. Then what about leaving and saying goodbye to your family and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's that's a hard time. I'm sure everybody has. You know, it's a busy time. I didn't have to divest myself of my home. I had I owned a home because my son and his wife and two grand boys had moved in with me a few years before that decision. And so they took over the house and the costs of the house and and, you know, so I that was all taken care of. So I know a lot of people have trouble. You know, I have a challenge with that. What to do with their house and what to do with their things. Seemed like everybody in their brother wanted to, you know, have a going away dinner. I eat a lot of food, but it still was a lot of putting things together. And I wasn't sad to go. I was very excited. I'll have to admit, the hardest part of leaving was telling my wonderful four year old Labrador retriever goodbye because he I knew he wouldn't understand that I wasn't coming home for twenty seven months, you know. But other than that, it was not. It was of course, a whirlwind of things to do. But I didn't have to close down my life quite as much as maybe other people that.

[Assistant] So was your Labrador retriever still alive when you came home?

[User] He was and he was wild crazy. I mean, he would actually when I talked to the family from Azerbaijan, my son would call home every couple of months and we'd have a little chat. My dog Jack would bark when he heard me. So I don't know whether it was just because everybody was excited, because we had made this connection on the phone or not. But anyway.

[Assistant] Yes, right.

[User] But that was probably the hardest thing. How do you tell your dog you're leaving for two years?

[Assistant] So is he still alive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was and he was wild crazy. I mean, he would actually when I talked to the family from Azerbaijan, my son would call home every couple of months and we'd have a little chat. My dog Jack would bark when he heard me. So I don't know whether it was just because everybody was excited, because we had made this connection on the phone or not. But anyway.

[Assistant] Yes, right.

[User] But that was probably the hardest thing. How do you tell your dog you're leaving for two years?

[Assistant] So is he still alive?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So all right. So you you were getting ready to leave lots of dinners and then where did you leave from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was probably the hardest thing. How do you tell your dog you're leaving for two years?

[Assistant] So is he still alive?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So all right. So you you were getting ready to leave lots of dinners and then where did you leave from?

[User] We our group met in Philadelphia. OK, for the I don't know what day and a half it was, of course stressful packing all those things into your big backpacks and so forth that we needed to go. And it was you know, we were told about conservative dress. And I think the Azerbaijani women thought we were all missionaries or something because we all had dark skirts. So went down to our ankles. And they certainly didn't dress like that in Azerbaijan. They were pretty modern dressing, you know, and especially the younger girls. And the the Days Inn in Philadelphia were great. I had a roommate that I connected up with. And we you know, we she was a young woman and we really enjoyed each other during that time and then ended up rooming together when we got to Baku for our first three days in Azerbaijan, too. So I always kind of had a special spot in my heart for her.

[Assistant] So you were three, three days in Philadelphia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we probably were. I had to where I flew out of an in Michigan. You know, they ask you where is your home airport? And I prefer the smaller airport in Flint, Michigan, which is in the center of Michigan. So they flew me out of there, which wasn't very convenient because I had to go to Atlanta and then back up to Philadelphia. So I left Flint like at four a.m. or five a.m. and didn't get to Philadelphia to five p.m. And they didn't have any coffee in the conference room. I was like, I'm an adult. I need some coffee now. Yeah, I've been on a plane for the last twelve hours, so we laughed about that because that was so. Yeah. So we had roundtable discussions and the usual get to know each other, you know, all those kinds of games that you play when you're in a group that you know. And then we also I still have the envelope that they gave me at the end. Of my service, of I wrote something about myself personally and what I had hoped to accomplish and Peace Corps. Now don't ask me what I wrote because I don't remember exactly, but it was, you know, something very lofty and, you know, doing things, important things and stuff. But that was fun to get at the end.

[Assistant] So you mean you wrote this?

[User] Inevitably, they gave it all. They gave us all an envelope. We put our name on the outside and we wrote just to ourselves, like, this is what we know. This is what I want to accomplish at the Philadelphia training and the one I cost. When I closed my service, they gave that back to me.

[Assistant] How interesting.

[User] So that was kind of neat. Yeah. For me it was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you spent a few days in Philadelphia and then they. And how many were you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Inevitably, they gave it all. They gave us all an envelope. We put our name on the outside and we wrote just to ourselves, like, this is what we know. This is what I want to accomplish at the Philadelphia training and the one I cost. When I closed my service, they gave that back to me.

[Assistant] How interesting.

[User] So that was kind of neat. Yeah. For me it was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you spent a few days in Philadelphia and then they. And how many were you there?

[User] I think our group started off at 63 and about I'll say fourteen or fifteen of us were senior volunteers 50 years or older. There were a couple to married couples that were in their probably 30s and then the rest were the, you know, recent grads or 20 something graduate student age. So so our senior group was really good. And when we got to Baku, they kind of placed us in our training clusters. There was a group of us that were all seniors together, not all the seniors that were in our cluster because we because of our sectors. But we always felt lucky that we were together in a training session together. We weren't competing against the younger people with the language challenges of Azerbaijani, which is a pretty tough language, and and supported each other and understood each other's needs and so forth.

[Assistant] So you said you were 50/50?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was kind of neat. Yeah. For me it was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you spent a few days in Philadelphia and then they. And how many were you there?

[User] I think our group started off at 63 and about I'll say fourteen or fifteen of us were senior volunteers 50 years or older. There were a couple to married couples that were in their probably 30s and then the rest were the, you know, recent grads or 20 something graduate student age. So so our senior group was really good. And when we got to Baku, they kind of placed us in our training clusters. There was a group of us that were all seniors together, not all the seniors that were in our cluster because we because of our sectors. But we always felt lucky that we were together in a training session together. We weren't competing against the younger people with the language challenges of Azerbaijani, which is a pretty tough language, and and supported each other and understood each other's needs and so forth.

[Assistant] So you said you were 50/50?

[User] Well, I think there were 14 or 14 or 15. A couple of the volunteers left during that time, but. Yeah, so it was a good group and we have stayed. I'm here today with one of my Azerbaijani friends.

[Assistant] Yes, we're doing our interview during the Peace Corps Connect conference in Shawnee on Delaware, in Pennsylvania in 2018. So for that reason, you're with one of your friends. That's wonderful that you both can attend this and continue to be stimulated and motivated about Peace Corps values. So there were a good portion then of you almost. What is that? Almost a quarter of you were senior.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think our group started off at 63 and about I'll say fourteen or fifteen of us were senior volunteers 50 years or older. There were a couple to married couples that were in their probably 30s and then the rest were the, you know, recent grads or 20 something graduate student age. So so our senior group was really good. And when we got to Baku, they kind of placed us in our training clusters. There was a group of us that were all seniors together, not all the seniors that were in our cluster because we because of our sectors. But we always felt lucky that we were together in a training session together. We weren't competing against the younger people with the language challenges of Azerbaijani, which is a pretty tough language, and and supported each other and understood each other's needs and so forth.

[Assistant] So you said you were 50/50?

[User] Well, I think there were 14 or 14 or 15. A couple of the volunteers left during that time, but. Yeah, so it was a good group and we have stayed. I'm here today with one of my Azerbaijani friends.

[Assistant] Yes, we're doing our interview during the Peace Corps Connect conference in Shawnee on Delaware, in Pennsylvania in 2018. So for that reason, you're with one of your friends. That's wonderful that you both can attend this and continue to be stimulated and motivated about Peace Corps values. So there were a good portion then of you almost. What is that? Almost a quarter of you were senior.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Probably not quite but we were and I was is a good place for senior volunteers because of the it's a post-Soviet country, the respect of education and the respect of the experience and age. We we had the benefit of that, of that. I think they they understood that. We knew what we were about, you know. Right. And I know organizations.

[Assistant] And you were in you said economic community


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think there were 14 or 14 or 15. A couple of the volunteers left during that time, but. Yeah, so it was a good group and we have stayed. I'm here today with one of my Azerbaijani friends.

[Assistant] Yes, we're doing our interview during the Peace Corps Connect conference in Shawnee on Delaware, in Pennsylvania in 2018. So for that reason, you're with one of your friends. That's wonderful that you both can attend this and continue to be stimulated and motivated about Peace Corps values. So there were a good portion then of you almost. What is that? Almost a quarter of you were senior.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Probably not quite but we were and I was is a good place for senior volunteers because of the it's a post-Soviet country, the respect of education and the respect of the experience and age. We we had the benefit of that, of that. I think they they understood that. We knew what we were about, you know. Right. And I know organizations.

[Assistant] And you were in you said economic community

[User] Community economic development. So there were, so we did our our 11 weeks of training. Well, we were three, three days in Baku and then they piled us in marshrutka and dropped us off at our host families for 11 weeks.

[Assistant] Um, and what were those, was the training in Baku?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Probably not quite but we were and I was is a good place for senior volunteers because of the it's a post-Soviet country, the respect of education and the respect of the experience and age. We we had the benefit of that, of that. I think they they understood that. We knew what we were about, you know. Right. And I know organizations.

[Assistant] And you were in you said economic community

[User] Community economic development. So there were, so we did our our 11 weeks of training. Well, we were three, three days in Baku and then they piled us in marshrutka and dropped us off at our host families for 11 weeks.

[Assistant] Um, and what were those, was the training in Baku?

[User] Just three days of kind of welcoming training, almost a continuation of what we did in Philadelphia group stuff, some of the some of the immediate culture and cultural things that we needed to pay attention to how to use a squat toilet and those kinds of things that they knew we were all going to face once we got to the host family. So it was in a hotel that we were at Baku and then they split us up and sent us off to our villages or the or the not our site villages, but our training, training, training locations. And I was placed in a we would call it in the United States, a suburb of Sumqayit, which is about the third largest city in Azerbaijan in a compound with a family that had had a Peace Corps volunteer previously. So it wasn't their first one, not very much English in the in the county, in the family, and lived with them for 11 weeks until I was placed in my permanent assignment.

[Assistant] And speaking of of language, what was the language that you were learning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Community economic development. So there were, so we did our our 11 weeks of training. Well, we were three, three days in Baku and then they piled us in marshrutka and dropped us off at our host families for 11 weeks.

[Assistant] Um, and what were those, was the training in Baku?

[User] Just three days of kind of welcoming training, almost a continuation of what we did in Philadelphia group stuff, some of the some of the immediate culture and cultural things that we needed to pay attention to how to use a squat toilet and those kinds of things that they knew we were all going to face once we got to the host family. So it was in a hotel that we were at Baku and then they split us up and sent us off to our villages or the or the not our site villages, but our training, training, training locations. And I was placed in a we would call it in the United States, a suburb of Sumqayit, which is about the third largest city in Azerbaijan in a compound with a family that had had a Peace Corps volunteer previously. So it wasn't their first one, not very much English in the in the county, in the family, and lived with them for 11 weeks until I was placed in my permanent assignment.

[Assistant] And speaking of of language, what was the language that you were learning?

[User] Azerbaijani. Azerbaijani is a Turkish based language, very grammatical. And I will admit that I struggled very much with it and once I was placed in my home, in my, in my sight, it became very evident that the people I was working with, which were young people and in vocational training, they wanted to speak English. They didn't want me to struggle too much with the language. So I didn't do really great with it, but I got by.

[Assistant] Yeah, you learned enough.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just three days of kind of welcoming training, almost a continuation of what we did in Philadelphia group stuff, some of the some of the immediate culture and cultural things that we needed to pay attention to how to use a squat toilet and those kinds of things that they knew we were all going to face once we got to the host family. So it was in a hotel that we were at Baku and then they split us up and sent us off to our villages or the or the not our site villages, but our training, training, training locations. And I was placed in a we would call it in the United States, a suburb of Sumqayit, which is about the third largest city in Azerbaijan in a compound with a family that had had a Peace Corps volunteer previously. So it wasn't their first one, not very much English in the in the county, in the family, and lived with them for 11 weeks until I was placed in my permanent assignment.

[Assistant] And speaking of of language, what was the language that you were learning?

[User] Azerbaijani. Azerbaijani is a Turkish based language, very grammatical. And I will admit that I struggled very much with it and once I was placed in my home, in my, in my sight, it became very evident that the people I was working with, which were young people and in vocational training, they wanted to speak English. They didn't want me to struggle too much with the language. So I didn't do really great with it, but I got by.

[Assistant] Yeah, you learned enough.

[User] Yeah, much enough to certainly get around. Yes. But not to carry on a business conversation or anything. I was not in some of our group did. They were very, very good at it.

[Assistant] Yeah, not me, so tell us what you what kinds of things you did during training both the activities and the content of how you look, what you return?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn't. And, you know, that was just the way it was. And also, you know, some of the cultural things, we didn't push against them. We tried to integrate. I wanted to be not there and be in an American compound. I wanted to be a part of the Azerbaijani culture. So. Retarded that part.

[Assistant] Yeah, right. Did you enjoy training?

[User] Yeah. I mean, I struggled so much with the language, the language class, and there were a variety of reasons. That was probably, you know, the hardest part with the rest of it. Yeah, I did, yeah. I mean, I was glad when it was over and we all got our assignments and, you know, that exciting part of knowing where you're going to go in the country and and so forth. And in the end, the kind of the cultural change that you have in front of your eyes when you first get to a country started to fall away and everything wasn't so, so strange or so. Oh, my goodness, look at that. Kind of got better, better acclimated and was ready, ready for service one when we swore in in December of 2008.

[Assistant] So you didn't actually swear in

[User] Until December 2008.

[Assistant] Until you finished. And did most of the trainees survive through the whole 11 weeks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I struggled so much with the language, the language class, and there were a variety of reasons. That was probably, you know, the hardest part with the rest of it. Yeah, I did, yeah. I mean, I was glad when it was over and we all got our assignments and, you know, that exciting part of knowing where you're going to go in the country and and so forth. And in the end, the kind of the cultural change that you have in front of your eyes when you first get to a country started to fall away and everything wasn't so, so strange or so. Oh, my goodness, look at that. Kind of got better, better acclimated and was ready, ready for service one when we swore in in December of 2008.

[Assistant] So you didn't actually swear in

[User] Until December 2008.

[Assistant] Until you finished. And did most of the trainees survive through the whole 11 weeks?

[User] Our group did. We were unusual that way. We were told me as far as the expected percentage of people dropping out. I think during training we had I don't know whether we had anyone drop out during training, but we did have one senior volunteer left for health reasons. And we had maybe a couple of the young people, but we only had four or five of the whole group through the whole two and a half years actually.

[Assistant] Leave. Leave early. Leave early. Right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Until December 2008.

[Assistant] Until you finished. And did most of the trainees survive through the whole 11 weeks?

[User] Our group did. We were unusual that way. We were told me as far as the expected percentage of people dropping out. I think during training we had I don't know whether we had anyone drop out during training, but we did have one senior volunteer left for health reasons. And we had maybe a couple of the young people, but we only had four or five of the whole group through the whole two and a half years actually.

[Assistant] Leave. Leave early. Leave early. Right. Yeah.

[User] So, yeah. And some of the volunteers didn't go home during the whole time. I, I pushed the button at one point and went home at Christmas after, after the first year. And after I did that I wished I hadn't, it kind of interrupted my rhythm of my volunteer activities. I was doing the projects I was working on and I if I did it again, I wouldn't I wouldn't go home in the middle of it.

[Assistant] Yeah, I did. Did you do any other. Well, we'll get back to that. And again, let's talk about what happened after training. Where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah. And some of the volunteers didn't go home during the whole time. I, I pushed the button at one point and went home at Christmas after, after the first year. And after I did that I wished I hadn't, it kind of interrupted my rhythm of my volunteer activities. I was doing the projects I was working on and I if I did it again, I wouldn't I wouldn't go home in the middle of it.

[Assistant] Yeah, I did. Did you do any other. Well, we'll get back to that. And again, let's talk about what happened after training. Where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned. So we our training was in Sumqayit, which is on the Caspian Sea, not too far from Baku, the capital, which is a total another world of cosmopolitan society and beautiful homes and so forth. Sumqayit was more of an industrial town.

[Assistant] North of

[User] North. Yeah. Going up the Caspian north chemical plants that were defunct from the Soviet time. Now, I think being used again, a reputation of, you know, of some of the conflict with the Armenians during the, um, the Armenian Azerbaijani border conflict that

[Assistant] Which continues, doesn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was assigned. So we our training was in Sumqayit, which is on the Caspian Sea, not too far from Baku, the capital, which is a total another world of cosmopolitan society and beautiful homes and so forth. Sumqayit was more of an industrial town.

[Assistant] North of

[User] North. Yeah. Going up the Caspian north chemical plants that were defunct from the Soviet time. Now, I think being used again, a reputation of, you know, of some of the conflict with the Armenians during the, um, the Armenian Azerbaijani border conflict that

[Assistant] Which continues, doesn’t it?

[User] Which continues today. They still are shooting at each other over the border and still still in and just disagreement about the border. So from there, my assignment was in Ganja, which is in the west for the west end of the country, almost a Georgia border, maybe about an hour from the Georgia border. And Ganja is the second largest city in Azerbaijan. And it is a university town, an old old city. And there were five of us that were assigned there because it's a city of, um, I'll say three hundred fifty thousand people. Largest city I had ever lived in. I was placed with a woman that was a widow from the Azerbaijani Armenian conflict. And but her daughter was one of our our language cultural trainers. So she had English. And I lived in one of the nine story Soviet cement block apartment complexes that had several in our in our area that were so we probably had eighteen hundred families living in this big complex of big apartments.

[Assistant] Do you want to tell us a little bit about that apartment? What marked it in your mind as being Soviet era?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, sure. Are you and you would come home and you might get under your your huge Peace Corps sleeping bag that they gave us on in the bed and just sort of stay under there for the rest of the evening because it was cold but not, you know, not terrible, you know. Yeah, yeah. At first it was probably terrible, but then it became just your life.

[Assistant] Yeah. Right, you coped. So what about your work? What did you do on a daily basis?

[User] Yeah. I was assigned to a NGO vocational training center, so I had nothing to do with the government school system. And I would compare it to our United States tech centers that a lot of the schools have. It was targeted at 14 year olds through. Well, it could have gone past the adult, but usually once the Azerbaijanis were married, they weren't doing the school thing. So I'd say twenty six year olds, when we had twenty six year olds, the school taught computer skills, English, German, sewing, knitting, cosmetology, welding, accounting. What else? Well, cosmetology was a big one. So the students came, they paid a tuition and about 25 percent of our students were IDP's from that Armenian and internally displaced people from the Armenian Azerbaijani conflict. Because Ganja was one place where a lot of the people that were expelled from Armenia that were Azerbaijanis came either home to their families area and Ganja. And we were close, close enough to the border sort of that we had a huge IDP population there. Yet even though that was 20 years or more after the original conflict when they were when they separated and Azerbaijan's and Armenians to go back to their country, too. So it was a lot of IDP's I. I think I've heard that there were probably 100,000 IDPs living yet in Azerbaijan as IDPs.

[Assistant] And they would have been had previously lived close

[User] On the Azerbaijan and Armenia border. They were in Armenia.

[Assistant] Well, but then but then because of the struggle, they were displaced.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the Azerbaijan and Armenia border. They were in Armenia.

[Assistant] Well, but then but then because of the struggle, they were displaced.

[User] There's a section that's a peace part of the land Azerbaijanis land that Azerbaijani say belongs to them and it's inside their their country. It's Nagorno-Karabakh and the Armenians occupied it. That's what the Azerbaijanis would say. And so the Azerbaijanis that were living on that land were expelled from the Armenians that were in other parts because they had lived together up until that point and were expelled back to their country. So the Armenian country has the same kind of IDP problem, I think, too. And the IDPs in Azerbaijan really felt, feel and still feel that they won't get to go back to their land. You know, they had and their status remains kind of in flux because they have that belief and they also have some benefits as as an IDP, you know, they have some help with their housing and their, you know, their gas bills and some of their education. Is that so we our organization, the NGO that I volunteered at the IDPs, didn't have to pay tuition to go there so they could learn those technical skills for free. The other students that came and they came a lot for the English, all the other students would come a lot for the English classes. So we're taught there. And they were taught by Azerbaijani young, young Azerbaijani teachers that were trying to learn English from old Russian textbooks. And so that was one of the things that we did. We tried to upgrade their, you know, their skills.

[Assistant] Right, so that this was a private school?

[User] Then it was started by the Seventh Day Adventists at the time that the that the country was formed and they had finished their mission mission, two of that kind. They were still in the country doing some ecological things and planting trees and stuff. But pretty much the school was turned over to a local NGO before I got there.

[Assistant] So the Seventh Day Adventist work went early after that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then it was started by the Seventh Day Adventists at the time that the that the country was formed and they had finished their mission mission, two of that kind. They were still in the country doing some ecological things and planting trees and stuff. But pretty much the school was turned over to a local NGO before I got there.

[Assistant] So the Seventh Day Adventist work went early after that.

[User] Early there, they were the first in there.

[Assistant] Breakup of the Soviet Union. They were right. And they established first and there some of these be professional training schools. OK, so how many Peace Corps volunteers were assigned to that school?

[User] Just me.

[Assistant] Were you the only one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Early there, they were the first in there.

[Assistant] Breakup of the Soviet Union. They were right. And they established first and there some of these be professional training schools. OK, so how many Peace Corps volunteers were assigned to that school?

[User] Just me.

[Assistant] Were you the only one?

[User] One, and there had been one or maybe two before me and there was one that followed me. But then the school was dissolved for a variety of reasons. On the NGO situation I was watching kind of changed politically. The government was not as receptive to foreign funded NGOs and a lot of reporting things in the school, kind of, I think, and I think the Seventh Day Avenue sold the buildings, so I just went away.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. So you see how many students were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not necessarily that we were a big city and there were at most times there were five to seven volunteers at one time. And Ganja the city was huge. So you wouldn't see each other sometimes. But there was always something going on that we could join into or somebody would say, oh, there we worked. I worked in a helping a school that was with deaf kids. It wasn't something I saw it out. Somebody, you know, would say, oh, there's, you know, somebody there that needs help with their computers or they they need help with writing a grant or whatever. So, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. Get busy. You helped. Yeah. And so the interesting question here, how did you communicate with other volunteers?

[User] We had we were provided cell phones as part of our our our tools that we had. So one of the first things we did when we got to the machine was to buy cell phones and but we had to pay for our own SIM, our own contours. He recalled our time, our own minutes by the cell phones was a real trick because you couldn't buy a cell phone unless you had an Azerbaijani ID card. And of course, we didn't have one. So our LCFs our language and cultural trainers had to go with us by the phones and so forth. So that was, you know, just some of their requirements. So we were able to text back and forth with each other, Internet was available when we first got there, but it was not, you know, was dial up Internet if you had it. My school had just one dial up line when we got there. But after a bit, they were able to get better Internet.

[Assistant] Better, meaning better signals. But it was still landline?

[User] Still a landline, like it was still landline, but faster.

[Assistant] Wi-Fi wasn't there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had we were provided cell phones as part of our our our tools that we had. So one of the first things we did when we got to the machine was to buy cell phones and but we had to pay for our own SIM, our own contours. He recalled our time, our own minutes by the cell phones was a real trick because you couldn't buy a cell phone unless you had an Azerbaijani ID card. And of course, we didn't have one. So our LCFs our language and cultural trainers had to go with us by the phones and so forth. So that was, you know, just some of their requirements. So we were able to text back and forth with each other, Internet was available when we first got there, but it was not, you know, was dial up Internet if you had it. My school had just one dial up line when we got there. But after a bit, they were able to get better Internet.

[Assistant] Better, meaning better signals. But it was still landline?

[User] Still a landline, like it was still landline, but faster.

[Assistant] Wi-Fi wasn't there?

[User] No, no. I don't think our phones even would have done Wi- Fi. They were flip phones. You know, but it improved because they had they eventually you would see the the the cowboys with the sheep on their cell phones. So, you know, so it was there, you know, they hit them, right. Yeah. Eventually.

[Assistant] Yeah, right. They had the micro wave connection.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still a landline, like it was still landline, but faster.

[Assistant] Wi-Fi wasn't there?

[User] No, no. I don't think our phones even would have done Wi- Fi. They were flip phones. You know, but it improved because they had they eventually you would see the the the cowboys with the sheep on their cell phones. So, you know, so it was there, you know, they hit them, right. Yeah. Eventually.

[Assistant] Yeah, right. They had the micro wave connection.

[User] So volunteer to volunteer we texted a lot. You know, if we were together and we were leaving some place, we weren't supposed to be out after dark. So if one person was going one way to go to their house on the other and I was going another way, we always check back with each other again. That was the senior volunteer following the rules. You know, did you get home OK back home? Especially the I felt I had a house mom at home, so I had somebody at my house. But yeah, those volunteers that were living in an apartment building by themselves, you know, I kind of always thought, you know, there's nobody to check on you. So, yeah. But safety wise, I felt very, very safe. And I was I was I'm sure there was crime there, but

[Assistant] I didn't really feel like were there any any safety or security issues that came up for any of the volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was cool. And we had all had to have voted absentee ballot because we were, you know, already in Azerbaijan in September of the fall. So that was a pretty cool.

[Assistant] That's right. That was right after you did. So you left in September. The campaign was going on.

[User] Yeah. And we get you know, and all we got was Russian and Georgian television. I mean, we didn't you really didn't know what was going on, you know, unless, you know, unless you got it from home or worked really hard at it. Yeah. Yeah. So it was you know, we were kind of or at least for me it was that was a void time for me as far as news and what was happening. I mean, I knew he won, but but the inauguration was. Yeah, it was pretty cool. All those kids, all of us, you know.

[Assistant] And so how did you get news of America then?

[User] Well, eventually for me, eventually the school got an. Access to Internet and enough minutes to get on it that I would I would check, but not like we do here now with, you know, looking every moment of the time of what's going on.

[Assistant] So too expensive to do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And we get you know, and all we got was Russian and Georgian television. I mean, we didn't you really didn't know what was going on, you know, unless, you know, unless you got it from home or worked really hard at it. Yeah. Yeah. So it was you know, we were kind of or at least for me it was that was a void time for me as far as news and what was happening. I mean, I knew he won, but but the inauguration was. Yeah, it was pretty cool. All those kids, all of us, you know.

[Assistant] And so how did you get news of America then?

[User] Well, eventually for me, eventually the school got an. Access to Internet and enough minutes to get on it that I would I would check, but not like we do here now with, you know, looking every moment of the time of what's going on.

[Assistant] So too expensive to do it?

[User] In the you know, the TV that we had in my house was was all foreign language. You know, it's all Russian, pretty much Russian. Occasionally we would see a news report from the United States. You know, there was a hurricane in Florida at the time when I was there. And I don't know how many people ask me if my family was OK. You know, I'm from Michigan. So it's like, yeah, it's OK. The hurricane doesn't come all the way to Michigan, but it was hard for them to understand that.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Just like you didn't know where your vision is. They don't know. They're just Florida and Michigan. Right. That's good. That's great. OK, so if you're ready to move along, she's been coming time to leave. What was what is how did you experience that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I do, you know. The grandkids will be talking about something I always say, oh you know, they're talking about well we were eating. Eggplant the other day, you know, mom made the the my daughter in law made eggplant and I said, oh, that's badımcan. And so, you know, we kind of they kind of looked at me. Well, that's what you know, that's what eggplants called in Azerbaijan, badımcan, you know. So it's was like and it's funny how those words pop out of you, you 10 years. And I and I didn't speak the language well, but those things will. Come up, you know.

[Assistant] Yes. Right. Yeah. So it's been actually in eight years since you’ve been back.

[User] Yes. Eight years since I left.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you went back to work for some time. Are you still working?

[User] No, I officially retired last November, so I was still I was still teaching those computer skills classes to the library system. Three hundred classes a year up until last November. And then I made the decision to be done. I thought, I'm sixty seven years old. I've done my 45 years and I sold my home. To my son, he bought a small RV conversion van and I'm homeless. That's my home. And I'm traveling around the United States right now and trying to find something to be passionate about.

[Assistant] And so would you have done that if you had not been in the Peace Corps do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I officially retired last November, so I was still I was still teaching those computer skills classes to the library system. Three hundred classes a year up until last November. And then I made the decision to be done. I thought, I'm sixty seven years old. I've done my 45 years and I sold my home. To my son, he bought a small RV conversion van and I'm homeless. That's my home. And I'm traveling around the United States right now and trying to find something to be passionate about.

[Assistant] And so would you have done that if you had not been in the Peace Corps do you think?

[User] No, I usually say the Peace Corps was the best thing I ever did other than having my family and my grandkids. That really opened my eyes. I certainly had traveled as a married woman. I traveled, we camped, we done lots of wonderful things. But I would never have ventured. I mean, we I invented Germany because we hosted I had hosted five young German professionals over the years in my home. So I always had those connections. But to step out and do that, I don't think I would have had those skills. And my friends say, you know, you're the only person we know that would be would we consider taking the Greyhound bus from Sarasota to to Naples instead of renting a car or having somebody pick you up? Yeah, well, public transportation.

[Assistant] Why not?

[User] I know an import here and there is no public transportation. So, you know, that was something that, you know, not not like a big city person would have had that familiarity. So, you know, if I hadn't had the Peace Corps, I would I am sure I wouldn't be as independent as I am and feels confident to do that as a you know, as a senior.

[Assistant] So so and so you you that feels like it's more confidence that it's you've got it from the Peace Corps experience. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know an import here and there is no public transportation. So, you know, that was something that, you know, not not like a big city person would have had that familiarity. So, you know, if I hadn't had the Peace Corps, I would I am sure I wouldn't be as independent as I am and feels confident to do that as a you know, as a senior.

[Assistant] So so and so you you that feels like it's more confidence that it's you've got it from the Peace Corps experience. Yeah.

[User] Know, I mean, yeah, I think I'm comfortable with doing things outside of my comfort zone. Maybe that's it. And not being anxious about. Whether it's going to turn out OK, and I certainly have been in situations where, you know, I wondered when I was in Azerbaijan two years ago for the wedding when I got to Baku from on the bumbling, bumbling Russian bus. It was on forever and ever to get there with the benzene burning in the in the engine. And I got to the airport, I found out that the the Lufthansa pilots were on strike in Germany and I could get to Germany, but I couldn't get back to the United States until the next day after that screwed up all my connections with my family to pick me up and everything. And and I just, you know, worked through it and stayed in Germany for another week and went home a week later. So I would never have done those kinds of things before. I had done those that kind of travel. Yeah. In confidence to do it right.

[Assistant] You just do it calmly.

[User] Yep. Just figured it out and you know, that was it. Yeah. So you wash out your clothes and go on.

[Assistant] That sounds wonderful. So is there anything else that you want to reflect on before we close our conversation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Know, I mean, yeah, I think I'm comfortable with doing things outside of my comfort zone. Maybe that's it. And not being anxious about. Whether it's going to turn out OK, and I certainly have been in situations where, you know, I wondered when I was in Azerbaijan two years ago for the wedding when I got to Baku from on the bumbling, bumbling Russian bus. It was on forever and ever to get there with the benzene burning in the in the engine. And I got to the airport, I found out that the the Lufthansa pilots were on strike in Germany and I could get to Germany, but I couldn't get back to the United States until the next day after that screwed up all my connections with my family to pick me up and everything. And and I just, you know, worked through it and stayed in Germany for another week and went home a week later. So I would never have done those kinds of things before. I had done those that kind of travel. Yeah. In confidence to do it right.

[Assistant] You just do it calmly.

[User] Yep. Just figured it out and you know, that was it. Yeah. So you wash out your clothes and go on.

[Assistant] That sounds wonderful. So is there anything else that you want to reflect on before we close our conversation?

[User] I don't think so. I think we've got the highlights. Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, this has been a great a great story and congratulations on the courage you've shown to take that step to join the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep. Just figured it out and you know, that was it. Yeah. So you wash out your clothes and go on.

[Assistant] That sounds wonderful. So is there anything else that you want to reflect on before we close our conversation?

[User] I don't think so. I think we've got the highlights. Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, this has been a great a great story and congratulations on the courage you've shown to take that step to join the Peace Corps.

[User] Might do it again.

[Assistant] It's not too late.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I think we've got the highlights. Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, this has been a great a great story and congratulations on the courage you've shown to take that step to join the Peace Corps.

[User] Might do it again.

[Assistant] It's not too late.

[User] I know. I know. You know, I've got a few other things I'm thinking of doing, but I keep my eye on the response all the time, looking for something that would be, you know, of interest and my skills. Right. But yeah. Yeah. I don't think I'm ready for a mud hut in Africa.

[Assistant] But you never know. You never know. I know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Iowa. I was born and raised in Iowa, the central part of Iowa.

[Assistant] And how did your travels bring you here?

[User] I went to college at the Iowa State University and they had a co-op program at that time with Dryden. Well, it wasn't Dryden at that time, but they had a co-op program with what is now Dryden, and I signed up for that. Eight of us came out that first year.

[Assistant] And were you all females, or were some males and females?

[User] Two of us were females. Emma and I roomed together. Emma Jaycox and I roomed together. The guys, some of them roomed together. I'm not sure how they split up, but they had friends that they stayed with, too. At the time, I was at the end of the freshman year and there were three of us who started out in aerospace engineering at Iowa State, and Emma and I were the ones that came out here. The other girl, and I don't remember her name at all, dropped out of the aerospace program the first year and Emma dropped out after we went back.\n\n They always told you, when you had your freshman orientation—I don't know if you had that or not in yours—but in the freshman orientation for engineering, we're all sitting there, we're all wide-eyed, and they say, "Okay, now look to your left and look to your right," and we're sort of bobbing our heads back and forth, and they say, "Now, when you graduate, only one of you is going to be in the class," and that was about right. So there was about one-third of the people who started in the freshman year graduated.

[Assistant] When you came as part of your co-op program, what year was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to college at the Iowa State University and they had a co-op program at that time with Dryden. Well, it wasn't Dryden at that time, but they had a co-op program with what is now Dryden, and I signed up for that. Eight of us came out that first year.

[Assistant] And were you all females, or were some males and females?

[User] Two of us were females. Emma and I roomed together. Emma Jaycox and I roomed together. The guys, some of them roomed together. I'm not sure how they split up, but they had friends that they stayed with, too. At the time, I was at the end of the freshman year and there were three of us who started out in aerospace engineering at Iowa State, and Emma and I were the ones that came out here. The other girl, and I don't remember her name at all, dropped out of the aerospace program the first year and Emma dropped out after we went back.\n\n They always told you, when you had your freshman orientation—I don't know if you had that or not in yours—but in the freshman orientation for engineering, we're all sitting there, we're all wide-eyed, and they say, "Okay, now look to your left and look to your right," and we're sort of bobbing our heads back and forth, and they say, "Now, when you graduate, only one of you is going to be in the class," and that was about right. So there was about one-third of the people who started in the freshman year graduated.

[Assistant] When you came as part of your co-op program, what year was that?

[User] 1963.

[Assistant] At that time, aerospace engineering, was that a relatively new field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two of us were females. Emma and I roomed together. Emma Jaycox and I roomed together. The guys, some of them roomed together. I'm not sure how they split up, but they had friends that they stayed with, too. At the time, I was at the end of the freshman year and there were three of us who started out in aerospace engineering at Iowa State, and Emma and I were the ones that came out here. The other girl, and I don't remember her name at all, dropped out of the aerospace program the first year and Emma dropped out after we went back.\n\n They always told you, when you had your freshman orientation—I don't know if you had that or not in yours—but in the freshman orientation for engineering, we're all sitting there, we're all wide-eyed, and they say, "Okay, now look to your left and look to your right," and we're sort of bobbing our heads back and forth, and they say, "Now, when you graduate, only one of you is going to be in the class," and that was about right. So there was about one-third of the people who started in the freshman year graduated.

[Assistant] When you came as part of your co-op program, what year was that?

[User] 1963.

[Assistant] At that time, aerospace engineering, was that a relatively new field?

[User] Yes, it was more the aeronautical, but Iowa State had gone for the aerospace engineering.

[Assistant] What made you interested in that field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1963.

[Assistant] At that time, aerospace engineering, was that a relatively new field?

[User] Yes, it was more the aeronautical, but Iowa State had gone for the aerospace engineering.

[Assistant] What made you interested in that field?

[User] I couldn't really decide what I wanted to do, and there was an article in the Des Moines Register Sunday paper about a woman who'd gone into engineering, and it sounded interesting and I liked planes. I thought that would be fun to do, and so that was why I focused on aerospace engineering.

[Assistant] Was this your first time away from Iowa to come to some place as exciting as the NASA Flight Research Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, it was the first time. Three of us flew out together, literally, in a small—it was Piper Tri-Pacer. Emma knew a guy who was willing to fly us out, basically for the cost of the gas. So it was myself and Emma and Jim, whose name escapes me right at the minute. Anyhow, we all flew out together, and we left from Marshalltown is little airport and he flew in there.\n\n Not realizing the size of the airplanes, I'd already packed my bags. I knew they were somewhat weight-restricted, but I figured, well, I weigh less than they do, so I can pack more than they do. But there isn't that much room in a Piper Tri-Pacer, so my mother shipped it out to me on a Greyhound bus.\n\n Jim Cooper was the guy I came out with. He and I were in the back seat because it was Emma's friend, so she got to ride in the front seat. We flew into Oklahoma, Oklahoma City Airport. The significance of that is, I was doing great until that time, so we got off and I wasn't feeling really good, so I just had 7-Up. I remember that I had 7-Up to drink. The rest of the flight wasn't pleasant for anybody else, me included. I didn't feel good, but luckily he had a coffee can. Poor Jim, he sat in the back seat with me. I'm busy barfing away in my coffee can, and they're sitting in the front seat. It wasn't a very pleasant trip for them, either.

[Assistant] But you got there.

[User] I got there. Of course, my mother, she was—and my father was there, too. There were tears in their eyes as they watched me take off, especially in this little tiny airplane. I don't know if you've ever seen a Piper Tri-Pacer, but they aren't very big.

[Assistant] Were your parents involved in engineering in any way?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So this was a new field for them as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got there. Of course, my mother, she was—and my father was there, too. There were tears in their eyes as they watched me take off, especially in this little tiny airplane. I don't know if you've ever seen a Piper Tri-Pacer, but they aren't very big.

[Assistant] Were your parents involved in engineering in any way?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So this was a new field for them as well.

[User] Yes. My brother had gone to college. He majored in probably something to do with zoology because he worked for the Conservation Commission. But no, my mother had gone to college, actually, which was rare for her age. She was born in 1905. I was the youngest by a lot in the family. She went to college. She actually went to Iowa State, only it was Iowa State College at that time, I think, is what it was called at that time. She only went for two years. She and her sister went, but her sister didn't want to continue, and my mother didn't want to go on by herself, and she didn't want to teach. So then she went to a business college.\n\n My dad didn't graduate from high school. They were farmers and his father said, "I need you on the field. I don't need you in school," so he never graduated from high school, even.

[Assistant] I can understand why they had tears in their eyes then, as you fly off in a plane and then off to a land of California.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So this was a new field for them as well.

[User] Yes. My brother had gone to college. He majored in probably something to do with zoology because he worked for the Conservation Commission. But no, my mother had gone to college, actually, which was rare for her age. She was born in 1905. I was the youngest by a lot in the family. She went to college. She actually went to Iowa State, only it was Iowa State College at that time, I think, is what it was called at that time. She only went for two years. She and her sister went, but her sister didn't want to continue, and my mother didn't want to go on by herself, and she didn't want to teach. So then she went to a business college.\n\n My dad didn't graduate from high school. They were farmers and his father said, "I need you on the field. I don't need you in school," so he never graduated from high school, even.

[Assistant] I can understand why they had tears in their eyes then, as you fly off in a plane and then off to a land of California.

[User] Oh, yes, because it was the desert. It was going to be warm and really nice. So I didn't bring any heavy coats. I came out in the end of May. I started right after Memorial Day. And of course, as you know, from being here in the desert, it gets pretty hot in the summer, but the nights get really cool, or they can get really cool, and I wasn't expecting that. And then the winters get cold as well.\n\n I didn't go back. I was out here for six months at that time, so I went back in, oh, it would have been right around Christmas. November. It must have been around November. Yes, it was right around Thanksgiving.

[Assistant] You didn't go back the same way you came, though, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, because it was the desert. It was going to be warm and really nice. So I didn't bring any heavy coats. I came out in the end of May. I started right after Memorial Day. And of course, as you know, from being here in the desert, it gets pretty hot in the summer, but the nights get really cool, or they can get really cool, and I wasn't expecting that. And then the winters get cold as well.\n\n I didn't go back. I was out here for six months at that time, so I went back in, oh, it would have been right around Christmas. November. It must have been around November. Yes, it was right around Thanksgiving.

[Assistant] You didn't go back the same way you came, though, right?

[User] Oh, no. Well, the first time on the co-op program, the first and last time, you have to pay for your own transportation. The other advantage of going out with Emma and with Jim was that there was a group of us, and it turned out we lucked out with the guy because none of us were old enough to rent a car, so he was able to rent a car and we got a place to stay before he flew back. We never even thought about that, but you can't rent a car at nineteen.

[Assistant] No. I think even till today you can't do that.

[User] That's right. I think you have to be—

[Assistant] I think it's twenty-five.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. Well, the first time on the co-op program, the first and last time, you have to pay for your own transportation. The other advantage of going out with Emma and with Jim was that there was a group of us, and it turned out we lucked out with the guy because none of us were old enough to rent a car, so he was able to rent a car and we got a place to stay before he flew back. We never even thought about that, but you can't rent a car at nineteen.

[Assistant] No. I think even till today you can't do that.

[User] That's right. I think you have to be—

[Assistant] I think it's twenty-five.

[User] I think so. I think somebody else was talking about that.

[Assistant] Did you land close by?