[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was doing it in a room next to the control center. I guess it was one of these staff support rooms.

[Assistant] And you coordinated all of that information out of there as well?

[User] Yes. We used that as a voice-over, and he went—it was kind of like you could hear the Russian in the background, but you could hear his voice going over it, so it worked very well. I guess that was [Donald K. “Deke”] Slayton’s mission also. He was on that. Then I know the landing, that’s when they had a problem, and I forget what the problem was.

[Assistant] I think they had problems with the chutes not opening properly, and they had inhaled possibly some gasses.

[User] Yes, that was it, yes, the inhalation. I recall that because I started getting phone calls in the middle of the night on that.

[Assistant] What was your reaction and actions when you would get these phone calls? How did you start to get the process rolling to get this information out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We used that as a voice-over, and he went—it was kind of like you could hear the Russian in the background, but you could hear his voice going over it, so it worked very well. I guess that was [Donald K. “Deke”] Slayton’s mission also. He was on that. Then I know the landing, that’s when they had a problem, and I forget what the problem was.

[Assistant] I think they had problems with the chutes not opening properly, and they had inhaled possibly some gasses.

[User] Yes, that was it, yes, the inhalation. I recall that because I started getting phone calls in the middle of the night on that.

[Assistant] What was your reaction and actions when you would get these phone calls? How did you start to get the process rolling to get this information out?

[User] It varied pretty widely, depending on who called and what they wanted. You’d go to the experts as best you could. Again, if it was you’re an important member of the press, and I guess you could say all of them were at least in their own minds were important, but—

[Assistant] Did time serve as a bigger factor or did you try to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was it, yes, the inhalation. I recall that because I started getting phone calls in the middle of the night on that.

[Assistant] What was your reaction and actions when you would get these phone calls? How did you start to get the process rolling to get this information out?

[User] It varied pretty widely, depending on who called and what they wanted. You’d go to the experts as best you could. Again, if it was you’re an important member of the press, and I guess you could say all of them were at least in their own minds were important, but—

[Assistant] Did time serve as a bigger factor or did you try to—

[User] You say time?

[Assistant] Yes, the timeliness or did you try to gather information as you can to have a complete report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It varied pretty widely, depending on who called and what they wanted. You’d go to the experts as best you could. Again, if it was you’re an important member of the press, and I guess you could say all of them were at least in their own minds were important, but—

[Assistant] Did time serve as a bigger factor or did you try to—

[User] You say time?

[Assistant] Yes, the timeliness or did you try to gather information as you can to have a complete report?

[User] I think it was a combination of both. You’d try and get it fairly timely, but you’d also want to make sure it was accurate as best you could.

[Assistant] So much information to gather from so many sources in such little time must have been such a challenge that you looked at every day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You say time?

[Assistant] Yes, the timeliness or did you try to gather information as you can to have a complete report?

[User] I think it was a combination of both. You’d try and get it fairly timely, but you’d also want to make sure it was accurate as best you could.

[Assistant] So much information to gather from so many sources in such little time must have been such a challenge that you looked at every day.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or especially in these crisis situations at that. During Apollo-Soyuz in 1975, NBC approached NASA to broadcast from the Mission Control Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was a combination of both. You’d try and get it fairly timely, but you’d also want to make sure it was accurate as best you could.

[Assistant] So much information to gather from so many sources in such little time must have been such a challenge that you looked at every day.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or especially in these crisis situations at that. During Apollo-Soyuz in 1975, NBC approached NASA to broadcast from the Mission Control Center.

[User] Yes, they did.

[Assistant] You helped negotiate that agreement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or especially in these crisis situations at that. During Apollo-Soyuz in 1975, NBC approached NASA to broadcast from the Mission Control Center.

[User] Yes, they did.

[Assistant] You helped negotiate that agreement.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did.

[Assistant] You helped negotiate that agreement.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Yes. I guess they used the floor above or below, I don’t recall which. Jim Kitchell [phonetic] was the guy’s name who was the NBC man at the time that handled their space stuff. Yes, they did broadcasts from there, and it was an interesting way to do it. They just came in with the proposal and I guess I talked to—I’m trying to recall, maybe it was either Jack King or [Harold S.] Hal Stall.

[Assistant] I’m not quite sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Yes. I guess they used the floor above or below, I don’t recall which. Jim Kitchell [phonetic] was the guy’s name who was the NBC man at the time that handled their space stuff. Yes, they did broadcasts from there, and it was an interesting way to do it. They just came in with the proposal and I guess I talked to—I’m trying to recall, maybe it was either Jack King or [Harold S.] Hal Stall.

[Assistant] I’m not quite sure.

[User] It was somewhere in that time frame. But we put the deal together, and it worked out, I think, reasonably well.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that a national broadcasting system of that type wanted to come in and start using that as their background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I guess they used the floor above or below, I don’t recall which. Jim Kitchell [phonetic] was the guy’s name who was the NBC man at the time that handled their space stuff. Yes, they did broadcasts from there, and it was an interesting way to do it. They just came in with the proposal and I guess I talked to—I’m trying to recall, maybe it was either Jack King or [Harold S.] Hal Stall.

[Assistant] I’m not quite sure.

[User] It was somewhere in that time frame. But we put the deal together, and it worked out, I think, reasonably well.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that a national broadcasting system of that type wanted to come in and start using that as their background?

[User] No. No, I don’t guess I was. They had covered the space program pretty thoroughly.

[Assistant] How was it set up when they broadcast? Was it in actually the MOCR?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was somewhere in that time frame. But we put the deal together, and it worked out, I think, reasonably well.

[Assistant] Were you surprised that a national broadcasting system of that type wanted to come in and start using that as their background?

[User] No. No, I don’t guess I was. They had covered the space program pretty thoroughly.

[Assistant] How was it set up when they broadcast? Was it in actually the MOCR?

[User] Yes, it was in—and I forget which floor. I think we were out on the second floor and they were the third floor, but it was a separate floor.

[Assistant] Did you have to secure special badges and credentials for them to move their equipment there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I don’t guess I was. They had covered the space program pretty thoroughly.

[Assistant] How was it set up when they broadcast? Was it in actually the MOCR?

[User] Yes, it was in—and I forget which floor. I think we were out on the second floor and they were the third floor, but it was a separate floor.

[Assistant] Did you have to secure special badges and credentials for them to move their equipment there?

[User] Yes, I think we did. As I recall now, we had to do that kind of thing.

[Assistant] I guess somewhat restricted they were put in that area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was in—and I forget which floor. I think we were out on the second floor and they were the third floor, but it was a separate floor.

[Assistant] Did you have to secure special badges and credentials for them to move their equipment there?

[User] Yes, I think we did. As I recall now, we had to do that kind of thing.

[Assistant] I guess somewhat restricted they were put in that area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, that had to be very interesting. How long did they do that? Did they just do that for that one mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think we did. As I recall now, we had to do that kind of thing.

[Assistant] I guess somewhat restricted they were put in that area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, that had to be very interesting. How long did they do that? Did they just do that for that one mission?

[User] One mission, yes.

[Assistant] Of course, it was the final Apollo mission as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, that had to be very interesting. How long did they do that? Did they just do that for that one mission?

[User] One mission, yes.

[Assistant] Of course, it was the final Apollo mission as well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You moved into the Shuttle time period, and there were some years that you didn’t have missions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One mission, yes.

[Assistant] Of course, it was the final Apollo mission as well.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You moved into the Shuttle time period, and there were some years that you didn’t have missions.

[User] Well, that is true, yes.

[Assistant] How did Public Affairs adjust to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You moved into the Shuttle time period, and there were some years that you didn’t have missions.

[User] Well, that is true, yes.

[Assistant] How did Public Affairs adjust to—

[User] Well, that was kind of a miserable time, frankly. I guess we had these things at Edwards [Air Force Base, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center], where they had flown. Then you had all the tile coming off and that kind of thing, and that was different. But then finally I guess I did the first launch commentary for STS-1, which was [John W.] Young and—

[Assistant] [Robert L.] Crippen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was kind of a miserable time, frankly. I guess we had these things at Edwards [Air Force Base, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center], where they had flown. Then you had all the tile coming off and that kind of thing, and that was different. But then finally I guess I did the first launch commentary for STS-1, which was [John W.] Young and—

[Assistant] [Robert L.] Crippen.

[User] And Crippen, yes. As I recall, that was launched on April the 12th, 1981. Right?

[Assistant] That’s right.

[User] That was kind of an exciting mission.

[Assistant] How was that for you to see the excitement back in the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Crippen, yes. As I recall, that was launched on April the 12th, 1981. Right?

[Assistant] That’s right.

[User] That was kind of an exciting mission.

[Assistant] How was that for you to see the excitement back in the space program?

[User] Well, I liked it. I liked that a lot. I guess I also did the commentary when Sally [K.] Ride flew, and Jack Riley we used as the landing commentator on, I guess, most of them.

[Assistant] Of course, now it’s different that we had a different type of landing on the spacecraft now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was kind of an exciting mission.

[Assistant] How was that for you to see the excitement back in the space program?

[User] Well, I liked it. I liked that a lot. I guess I also did the commentary when Sally [K.] Ride flew, and Jack Riley we used as the landing commentator on, I guess, most of them.

[Assistant] Of course, now it’s different that we had a different type of landing on the spacecraft now.

[User] Yes, we did. Yes. The landing, I guess, was at Edwards.

[Assistant] The approach and landing tests and other testing that was done for the Shuttle was done at Edwards. How was your office involved in releasing the information of what was going on down there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I liked it. I liked that a lot. I guess I also did the commentary when Sally [K.] Ride flew, and Jack Riley we used as the landing commentator on, I guess, most of them.

[Assistant] Of course, now it’s different that we had a different type of landing on the spacecraft now.

[User] Yes, we did. Yes. The landing, I guess, was at Edwards.

[Assistant] The approach and landing tests and other testing that was done for the Shuttle was done at Edwards. How was your office involved in releasing the information of what was going on down there?

[User] Well, we tried to send someone there. I think I used a guy name Bob Gordon some, who spent some time there. In fact, he was covering the Shuttle Program at the time for us. The way we set up the organization, we gave people beat assignments, like someone would cover the Shuttle program, someone would cover some other program.

[Assistant] Was the majority of the Shuttle information that was being released to the press from NASA coming from your office at JSC or was it coming from Edwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did. Yes. The landing, I guess, was at Edwards.

[Assistant] The approach and landing tests and other testing that was done for the Shuttle was done at Edwards. How was your office involved in releasing the information of what was going on down there?

[User] Well, we tried to send someone there. I think I used a guy name Bob Gordon some, who spent some time there. In fact, he was covering the Shuttle Program at the time for us. The way we set up the organization, we gave people beat assignments, like someone would cover the Shuttle program, someone would cover some other program.

[Assistant] Was the majority of the Shuttle information that was being released to the press from NASA coming from your office at JSC or was it coming from Edwards?

[User] I’d say most of it was coming from us. Yes, most of it would be. Because Edwards was more of a facility. Plus they only had, as I recall, back in those days they had several sort of a one-man operation, a guy named Ralph Jackson who ran the their office.

[Assistant] Was Public Affairs on every center a bit of its own entity or did you get direction from NASA Headquarters on how Public Affairs needed to be handled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we tried to send someone there. I think I used a guy name Bob Gordon some, who spent some time there. In fact, he was covering the Shuttle Program at the time for us. The way we set up the organization, we gave people beat assignments, like someone would cover the Shuttle program, someone would cover some other program.

[Assistant] Was the majority of the Shuttle information that was being released to the press from NASA coming from your office at JSC or was it coming from Edwards?

[User] I’d say most of it was coming from us. Yes, most of it would be. Because Edwards was more of a facility. Plus they only had, as I recall, back in those days they had several sort of a one-man operation, a guy named Ralph Jackson who ran the their office.

[Assistant] Was Public Affairs on every center a bit of its own entity or did you get direction from NASA Headquarters on how Public Affairs needed to be handled?

[User] Well, I think it varied pretty widely as to who you had in charge in Headquarters. A fellow named Julian Scheer, you know, made sure you ran it his way. Then you had a fellow named John Donnelly, who I guess to a lesser degree may have been that way. Then I guess recently they’ve had some that—I’ve lost track of what they do.

[Assistant] But your office was pretty much through Haney and Duff and King. You guys created your policies and guidelines?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d say most of it was coming from us. Yes, most of it would be. Because Edwards was more of a facility. Plus they only had, as I recall, back in those days they had several sort of a one-man operation, a guy named Ralph Jackson who ran the their office.

[Assistant] Was Public Affairs on every center a bit of its own entity or did you get direction from NASA Headquarters on how Public Affairs needed to be handled?

[User] Well, I think it varied pretty widely as to who you had in charge in Headquarters. A fellow named Julian Scheer, you know, made sure you ran it his way. Then you had a fellow named John Donnelly, who I guess to a lesser degree may have been that way. Then I guess recently they’ve had some that—I’ve lost track of what they do.

[Assistant] But your office was pretty much through Haney and Duff and King. You guys created your policies and guidelines?

[User] Pretty much, but you also conformed. I think Scheer is the one that finally moved Haney out. He kind of moved him upstairs. They gave him a strange assignment, and Haney didn’t accept it.

[Assistant] Because so many new things were happening at that time, I was wondering if there was a funnel that controlled most of the information, because you had mentioned that Dr. Gilruth really didn’t get involved with Public Affairs, but I was wondering if there was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think it varied pretty widely as to who you had in charge in Headquarters. A fellow named Julian Scheer, you know, made sure you ran it his way. Then you had a fellow named John Donnelly, who I guess to a lesser degree may have been that way. Then I guess recently they’ve had some that—I’ve lost track of what they do.

[Assistant] But your office was pretty much through Haney and Duff and King. You guys created your policies and guidelines?

[User] Pretty much, but you also conformed. I think Scheer is the one that finally moved Haney out. He kind of moved him upstairs. They gave him a strange assignment, and Haney didn’t accept it.

[Assistant] Because so many new things were happening at that time, I was wondering if there was a funnel that controlled most of the information, because you had mentioned that Dr. Gilruth really didn’t get involved with Public Affairs, but I was wondering if there was—

[User] No, Gilruth, I think he found it sort of fascinating. He seemed interested, but he knew he was not—Gilruth was not a forceful, dynamic sort of guy. He was not a [Dr. Werhner] Von Braun, and he probably knew that. But he was a very charming, delightful guy, as I’m sure you know.

[Assistant] Other situations that occurred during those later years of the Apollo time and moving into Shuttle involved medical discussions as more broadcasts were being done and, of course, the press was more involved on the day-to-day activities of the missions. There were a lot of discussions about how medical information could be transferred or not transferred. How did your office deal with those privacy issues, especially during Skylab when there might have been discussions or could have been included in the transcriptions of medical discussions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much, but you also conformed. I think Scheer is the one that finally moved Haney out. He kind of moved him upstairs. They gave him a strange assignment, and Haney didn’t accept it.

[Assistant] Because so many new things were happening at that time, I was wondering if there was a funnel that controlled most of the information, because you had mentioned that Dr. Gilruth really didn’t get involved with Public Affairs, but I was wondering if there was—

[User] No, Gilruth, I think he found it sort of fascinating. He seemed interested, but he knew he was not—Gilruth was not a forceful, dynamic sort of guy. He was not a [Dr. Werhner] Von Braun, and he probably knew that. But he was a very charming, delightful guy, as I’m sure you know.

[Assistant] Other situations that occurred during those later years of the Apollo time and moving into Shuttle involved medical discussions as more broadcasts were being done and, of course, the press was more involved on the day-to-day activities of the missions. There were a lot of discussions about how medical information could be transferred or not transferred. How did your office deal with those privacy issues, especially during Skylab when there might have been discussions or could have been included in the transcriptions of medical discussions?

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall how we did that in Skylab. Because Skylab, as you pointed out accurately, is very long-duration missions. They went from twenty-eight days to fifty-six. We operated a little different in Skylab in that we kept the news center open, but it was kind on a low-key basis. As far as medical, I think we had some things where you declared them private, as I recall, the medical stuff particularly.

[Assistant] Was your staff privy to those private conversations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Gilruth, I think he found it sort of fascinating. He seemed interested, but he knew he was not—Gilruth was not a forceful, dynamic sort of guy. He was not a [Dr. Werhner] Von Braun, and he probably knew that. But he was a very charming, delightful guy, as I’m sure you know.

[Assistant] Other situations that occurred during those later years of the Apollo time and moving into Shuttle involved medical discussions as more broadcasts were being done and, of course, the press was more involved on the day-to-day activities of the missions. There were a lot of discussions about how medical information could be transferred or not transferred. How did your office deal with those privacy issues, especially during Skylab when there might have been discussions or could have been included in the transcriptions of medical discussions?

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall how we did that in Skylab. Because Skylab, as you pointed out accurately, is very long-duration missions. They went from twenty-eight days to fifty-six. We operated a little different in Skylab in that we kept the news center open, but it was kind on a low-key basis. As far as medical, I think we had some things where you declared them private, as I recall, the medical stuff particularly.

[Assistant] Was your staff privy to those private conversations?

[User] No. My recollection was that we were not.

[Assistant] So you basically turned that over to the flight control team and the astronauts to handle that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall how we did that in Skylab. Because Skylab, as you pointed out accurately, is very long-duration missions. They went from twenty-eight days to fifty-six. We operated a little different in Skylab in that we kept the news center open, but it was kind on a low-key basis. As far as medical, I think we had some things where you declared them private, as I recall, the medical stuff particularly.

[Assistant] Was your staff privy to those private conversations?

[User] No. My recollection was that we were not.

[Assistant] So you basically turned that over to the flight control team and the astronauts to handle that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If they considered it to be private?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. My recollection was that we were not.

[Assistant] So you basically turned that over to the flight control team and the astronauts to handle that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If they considered it to be private?

[User] The doctors, Chuck Berry or whoever was the doctor at the time.

[Assistant] Another area that you were in during the Shuttle time is reviewing and approving some press releases that the government contractors wanted to release regarding their products. Do you recall any of those situations where you were reviewing information that they wanted to release information on their own about what they were doing for the Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If they considered it to be private?

[User] The doctors, Chuck Berry or whoever was the doctor at the time.

[Assistant] Another area that you were in during the Shuttle time is reviewing and approving some press releases that the government contractors wanted to release regarding their products. Do you recall any of those situations where you were reviewing information that they wanted to release information on their own about what they were doing for the Shuttle?

[User] Now, who was that?

[Assistant] The contractors that were building parts of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The doctors, Chuck Berry or whoever was the doctor at the time.

[Assistant] Another area that you were in during the Shuttle time is reviewing and approving some press releases that the government contractors wanted to release regarding their products. Do you recall any of those situations where you were reviewing information that they wanted to release information on their own about what they were doing for the Shuttle?

[User] Now, who was that?

[Assistant] The contractors that were building parts of it.

[User] Oh, the Rockwells [North American Rockwell Corporation] and the—well, I’m not sure I remember that in any kind of specificity. Well, I guess Rockwell was the prime. I don’t recall any problems with release of information.

[Assistant] Did they have to check with your office before they released information?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, who was that?

[Assistant] The contractors that were building parts of it.

[User] Oh, the Rockwells [North American Rockwell Corporation] and the—well, I’m not sure I remember that in any kind of specificity. Well, I guess Rockwell was the prime. I don’t recall any problems with release of information.

[Assistant] Did they have to check with your office before they released information?

[User] They were supposed to. In most cases I think they did.

[Assistant] Was that part of their contract?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, the Rockwells [North American Rockwell Corporation] and the—well, I’m not sure I remember that in any kind of specificity. Well, I guess Rockwell was the prime. I don’t recall any problems with release of information.

[Assistant] Did they have to check with your office before they released information?

[User] They were supposed to. In most cases I think they did.

[Assistant] Was that part of their contract?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That they couldn’t release things without going through you first. Another change in NASA during some of your final years was that we had a new class of astronauts for the first time in a long time. In [19]‘77 they made the announcement that we were going to have a new class. Well, they selected that class in ‘77.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were supposed to. In most cases I think they did.

[Assistant] Was that part of their contract?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That they couldn’t release things without going through you first. Another change in NASA during some of your final years was that we had a new class of astronauts for the first time in a long time. In [19]‘77 they made the announcement that we were going to have a new class. Well, they selected that class in ‘77.

[User] Included the women, yes.

[Assistant] How did your office handle this information? Was it anything different than you’d done before? Tell us about that time period.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That they couldn’t release things without going through you first. Another change in NASA during some of your final years was that we had a new class of astronauts for the first time in a long time. In [19]‘77 they made the announcement that we were going to have a new class. Well, they selected that class in ‘77.

[User] Included the women, yes.

[Assistant] How did your office handle this information? Was it anything different than you’d done before? Tell us about that time period.

[User] We did it pretty much the same way. I’m trying to recall how many we had in that first group. Do you have a number?

[Assistant] I have six female and four minority astronaut candidates in that class.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Included the women, yes.

[Assistant] How did your office handle this information? Was it anything different than you’d done before? Tell us about that time period.

[User] We did it pretty much the same way. I’m trying to recall how many we had in that first group. Do you have a number?

[Assistant] I have six female and four minority astronaut candidates in that class.

[User] All right. That sounds right. Plus there were—

[Assistant] Plus, of course, the rest of the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did it pretty much the same way. I’m trying to recall how many we had in that first group. Do you have a number?

[Assistant] I have six female and four minority astronaut candidates in that class.

[User] All right. That sounds right. Plus there were—

[Assistant] Plus, of course, the rest of the—

[User] There may been like thirty.

[Assistant] Thirty, I believe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. That sounds right. Plus there were—

[Assistant] Plus, of course, the rest of the—

[User] There may been like thirty.

[Assistant] Thirty, I believe.

[User] Yes. Yes, okay. No, we put out the releases pretty much in a standard kind of way. I do recall trying to—I was talking to Dan Rather, trying to sell him on the idea of a\n\n 60 Minutes\n\n thing with the women, which he found interesting, but I think they finally decided not to do it. But I figured that was worth a pitch.

[Assistant] Did you have other venues that you tried to use to promote NASA? You mentioned just then about talking to Dan Rather and trying to get this idea out to the public that they were selecting women. What other types of things did you do to help promote NASA to the public?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There may been like thirty.

[Assistant] Thirty, I believe.

[User] Yes. Yes, okay. No, we put out the releases pretty much in a standard kind of way. I do recall trying to—I was talking to Dan Rather, trying to sell him on the idea of a\n\n 60 Minutes\n\n thing with the women, which he found interesting, but I think they finally decided not to do it. But I figured that was worth a pitch.

[Assistant] Did you have other venues that you tried to use to promote NASA? You mentioned just then about talking to Dan Rather and trying to get this idea out to the public that they were selecting women. What other types of things did you do to help promote NASA to the public?

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall. I’m not sure I had any that was as specific as that. I remember the name of the ad agency, Young & Rubicam . That was Tang-General Foods. I wanted to say that.

[Assistant] I wonder how many times that people do remember Tang and not remember—you always remember it to be part of the space program as well. That was an interesting fact for us to find out was how a lot of that came through your office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, okay. No, we put out the releases pretty much in a standard kind of way. I do recall trying to—I was talking to Dan Rather, trying to sell him on the idea of a\n\n 60 Minutes\n\n thing with the women, which he found interesting, but I think they finally decided not to do it. But I figured that was worth a pitch.

[Assistant] Did you have other venues that you tried to use to promote NASA? You mentioned just then about talking to Dan Rather and trying to get this idea out to the public that they were selecting women. What other types of things did you do to help promote NASA to the public?

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall. I’m not sure I had any that was as specific as that. I remember the name of the ad agency, Young & Rubicam . That was Tang-General Foods. I wanted to say that.

[Assistant] I wonder how many times that people do remember Tang and not remember—you always remember it to be part of the space program as well. That was an interesting fact for us to find out was how a lot of that came through your office.

[User] Yes, it did. They were really first-class people to deal, the Young & Rubicams were.

[Assistant] Did you have people, vendors and such, that would come to you for help to get their products to be incorporated with the space program? Would people approach you first or did you just get them after they had been approved by the NASA management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’m trying to recall. I’m not sure I had any that was as specific as that. I remember the name of the ad agency, Young & Rubicam . That was Tang-General Foods. I wanted to say that.

[Assistant] I wonder how many times that people do remember Tang and not remember—you always remember it to be part of the space program as well. That was an interesting fact for us to find out was how a lot of that came through your office.

[User] Yes, it did. They were really first-class people to deal, the Young & Rubicams were.

[Assistant] Did you have people, vendors and such, that would come to you for help to get their products to be incorporated with the space program? Would people approach you first or did you just get them after they had been approved by the NASA management?

[User] Probably we had some that might have approached you first. I think Velcro became very active. A fellow named Harold Williams was their PR [public relations] man for a number of years, and he was local. I guess he also handled some of Fisher’s stuff. He got kind of involved in the off-beat sort of stuff, slightly different kind of contracts.

[Assistant] You spent more than twenty years of service with NASA in Houston and have done such a wide variety of activities during your responsibilities. What do you consider to be your most challenging milestone in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did. They were really first-class people to deal, the Young & Rubicams were.

[Assistant] Did you have people, vendors and such, that would come to you for help to get their products to be incorporated with the space program? Would people approach you first or did you just get them after they had been approved by the NASA management?

[User] Probably we had some that might have approached you first. I think Velcro became very active. A fellow named Harold Williams was their PR [public relations] man for a number of years, and he was local. I guess he also handled some of Fisher’s stuff. He got kind of involved in the off-beat sort of stuff, slightly different kind of contracts.

[Assistant] You spent more than twenty years of service with NASA in Houston and have done such a wide variety of activities during your responsibilities. What do you consider to be your most challenging milestone in your career?

[User] Most challenging milestone. Well, I’m trying to think what would be the most challenging.

[Assistant] You could share with us more than one, if you’d like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably we had some that might have approached you first. I think Velcro became very active. A fellow named Harold Williams was their PR [public relations] man for a number of years, and he was local. I guess he also handled some of Fisher’s stuff. He got kind of involved in the off-beat sort of stuff, slightly different kind of contracts.

[Assistant] You spent more than twenty years of service with NASA in Houston and have done such a wide variety of activities during your responsibilities. What do you consider to be your most challenging milestone in your career?

[User] Most challenging milestone. Well, I’m trying to think what would be the most challenging.

[Assistant] You could share with us more than one, if you’d like.

[User] Okay. Well, I found Apollo 11 very exciting and the fact the quarantine assignment was different and that was interesting. The early Shuttle missions I thought were exciting and different.\n\n Skylab was quite different in that it was a new challenge. Skylab, because of the length of the missions, as you pointed out, we had the news center operating, but not at full tilt twenty-four hours. We might have a couple of people on versus the full staff twenty-four hours a day.\n\n But as far as the most challenging, I don’t know how you decide that.

[Assistant] Your staff, did you have a lot of turnover or did you find that people wanted to work in that office and stay there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most challenging milestone. Well, I’m trying to think what would be the most challenging.

[Assistant] You could share with us more than one, if you’d like.

[User] Okay. Well, I found Apollo 11 very exciting and the fact the quarantine assignment was different and that was interesting. The early Shuttle missions I thought were exciting and different.\n\n Skylab was quite different in that it was a new challenge. Skylab, because of the length of the missions, as you pointed out, we had the news center operating, but not at full tilt twenty-four hours. We might have a couple of people on versus the full staff twenty-four hours a day.\n\n But as far as the most challenging, I don’t know how you decide that.

[Assistant] Your staff, did you have a lot of turnover or did you find that people wanted to work in that office and stay there?

[User] I don’t think we had that much turnover. We had some. I know [Robert V.] Bob Gordon finally quit in sort of a huff because we hired a fellow named Dave Alter, who he did not like, and that turned out to be kind of a different operation, too.

[Assistant] Were you able to add on staff when you needed it at busy times or was your budget pretty restricted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, I found Apollo 11 very exciting and the fact the quarantine assignment was different and that was interesting. The early Shuttle missions I thought were exciting and different.\n\n Skylab was quite different in that it was a new challenge. Skylab, because of the length of the missions, as you pointed out, we had the news center operating, but not at full tilt twenty-four hours. We might have a couple of people on versus the full staff twenty-four hours a day.\n\n But as far as the most challenging, I don’t know how you decide that.

[Assistant] Your staff, did you have a lot of turnover or did you find that people wanted to work in that office and stay there?

[User] I don’t think we had that much turnover. We had some. I know [Robert V.] Bob Gordon finally quit in sort of a huff because we hired a fellow named Dave Alter, who he did not like, and that turned out to be kind of a different operation, too.

[Assistant] Were you able to add on staff when you needed it at busy times or was your budget pretty restricted?

[User] Well, it’s begun to rain again, ladies.

[Assistant] I think it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think we had that much turnover. We had some. I know [Robert V.] Bob Gordon finally quit in sort of a huff because we hired a fellow named Dave Alter, who he did not like, and that turned out to be kind of a different operation, too.

[Assistant] Were you able to add on staff when you needed it at busy times or was your budget pretty restricted?

[User] Well, it’s begun to rain again, ladies.

[Assistant] I think it is.

[User] I’m sorry. Sorry we brought you over to all this weather.\n\n Yes, we were able to add staff some, I think. But it was not like you had a\n\n carte blanche\n\n .

[Assistant] Do you believe that NASA gave you a direction to have an open policy with the press, or did you believe from your experiences that there were a lot of restrictions on the information that you could—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s begun to rain again, ladies.

[Assistant] I think it is.

[User] I’m sorry. Sorry we brought you over to all this weather.\n\n Yes, we were able to add staff some, I think. But it was not like you had a\n\n carte blanche\n\n .

[Assistant] Do you believe that NASA gave you a direction to have an open policy with the press, or did you believe from your experiences that there were a lot of restrictions on the information that you could—

[User] Well, I think when you say NASA, I think if you say like Julian Scheer, yes, he wanted you to be very open and very candid. He also had a policy which I liked, whereas you always spoke for attribution. You did not say “an unnamed source,” and I liked that.

[Assistant] Is there a time during your career that you think back and think the most fondly of? It might have been the early days or your Apollo days. I know you had mentioned about the quarantine time, but I was just wondering if there was a span of time that you just—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sorry. Sorry we brought you over to all this weather.\n\n Yes, we were able to add staff some, I think. But it was not like you had a\n\n carte blanche\n\n .

[Assistant] Do you believe that NASA gave you a direction to have an open policy with the press, or did you believe from your experiences that there were a lot of restrictions on the information that you could—

[User] Well, I think when you say NASA, I think if you say like Julian Scheer, yes, he wanted you to be very open and very candid. He also had a policy which I liked, whereas you always spoke for attribution. You did not say “an unnamed source,” and I liked that.

[Assistant] Is there a time during your career that you think back and think the most fondly of? It might have been the early days or your Apollo days. I know you had mentioned about the quarantine time, but I was just wondering if there was a span of time that you just—

[User] Yes. I thought Apollo days were extremely interesting. That’s when you had contacts with people like [Walter] Cronkite. In fact, I guess Cronkite even called a time or two. It may have been [General Thomas P.] Tom Stafford being on the—about the time he was getting ready to be launched for Apollo 10. I remember he had talked to Cronkite. Tom, he had a tendency to break all the conventional astronaut rules. He was an interesting guy, too. He kind of reminded you—he sounded a little bit like Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Well, he’s from Oklahoma. That’s not too far away from Texas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think when you say NASA, I think if you say like Julian Scheer, yes, he wanted you to be very open and very candid. He also had a policy which I liked, whereas you always spoke for attribution. You did not say “an unnamed source,” and I liked that.

[Assistant] Is there a time during your career that you think back and think the most fondly of? It might have been the early days or your Apollo days. I know you had mentioned about the quarantine time, but I was just wondering if there was a span of time that you just—

[User] Yes. I thought Apollo days were extremely interesting. That’s when you had contacts with people like [Walter] Cronkite. In fact, I guess Cronkite even called a time or two. It may have been [General Thomas P.] Tom Stafford being on the—about the time he was getting ready to be launched for Apollo 10. I remember he had talked to Cronkite. Tom, he had a tendency to break all the conventional astronaut rules. He was an interesting guy, too. He kind of reminded you—he sounded a little bit like Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Well, he’s from Oklahoma. That’s not too far away from Texas.

[User] No, that’s right. That’s right.

[Assistant] Are you a native Texan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I thought Apollo days were extremely interesting. That’s when you had contacts with people like [Walter] Cronkite. In fact, I guess Cronkite even called a time or two. It may have been [General Thomas P.] Tom Stafford being on the—about the time he was getting ready to be launched for Apollo 10. I remember he had talked to Cronkite. Tom, he had a tendency to break all the conventional astronaut rules. He was an interesting guy, too. He kind of reminded you—he sounded a little bit like Lyndon Johnson.

[Assistant] Well, he’s from Oklahoma. That’s not too far away from Texas.

[User] No, that’s right. That’s right.

[Assistant] Are you a native Texan?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where are you from originally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that’s right. That’s right.

[Assistant] Are you a native Texan?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where are you from originally?

[User] I was born in Houston, grew up down in the Rio Grande Valley, a little town named Weslaco, and went to college at Rice [University, Houston, Texas] for three years and then finished at Houston [University of Houston, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] At any point in your time did you ever think about jumping to that other side, to move into the broadcast or the print side and leaving NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where are you from originally?

[User] I was born in Houston, grew up down in the Rio Grande Valley, a little town named Weslaco, and went to college at Rice [University, Houston, Texas] for three years and then finished at Houston [University of Houston, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] At any point in your time did you ever think about jumping to that other side, to move into the broadcast or the print side and leaving NASA?

[User] Not really. No, I never had that kind of an interest. I think I was probably well positioned in the kind of job I had.

[Assistant] After you left NASA, did you continue in your journalism career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Houston, grew up down in the Rio Grande Valley, a little town named Weslaco, and went to college at Rice [University, Houston, Texas] for three years and then finished at Houston [University of Houston, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] At any point in your time did you ever think about jumping to that other side, to move into the broadcast or the print side and leaving NASA?

[User] Not really. No, I never had that kind of an interest. I think I was probably well positioned in the kind of job I had.

[Assistant] After you left NASA, did you continue in your journalism career?

[User] I haven’t really done that much with it. As you can see, we live here now and they’re kind of happy that we do.

[Assistant] I had read somewhere where you work as somewhat of a consultant with children’s books on space, is that true?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. No, I never had that kind of an interest. I think I was probably well positioned in the kind of job I had.

[Assistant] After you left NASA, did you continue in your journalism career?

[User] I haven’t really done that much with it. As you can see, we live here now and they’re kind of happy that we do.

[Assistant] I had read somewhere where you work as somewhat of a consultant with children’s books on space, is that true?

[User] Yes, I did do some of that. I’m trying to recall the name of the outfit. But I did do some. It was more of a technical review thing, where I would review some of their stuff.

[Assistant] That knowledge is still back in the recesses of your mind, I guess, all those years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I haven’t really done that much with it. As you can see, we live here now and they’re kind of happy that we do.

[Assistant] I had read somewhere where you work as somewhat of a consultant with children’s books on space, is that true?

[User] Yes, I did do some of that. I’m trying to recall the name of the outfit. But I did do some. It was more of a technical review thing, where I would review some of their stuff.

[Assistant] That knowledge is still back in the recesses of your mind, I guess, all those years.

[User] Yes, I guess. That was sort of fun. They didn’t pay much money, but I really didn’t need to get much from them.

[Assistant] As we close today, can you think of anything that you would like to share with us that we might not have covered, maybe a special story or a unique memory, any anecdote that you can think of that we can add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did do some of that. I’m trying to recall the name of the outfit. But I did do some. It was more of a technical review thing, where I would review some of their stuff.

[Assistant] That knowledge is still back in the recesses of your mind, I guess, all those years.

[User] Yes, I guess. That was sort of fun. They didn’t pay much money, but I really didn’t need to get much from them.

[Assistant] As we close today, can you think of anything that you would like to share with us that we might not have covered, maybe a special story or a unique memory, any anecdote that you can think of that we can add?

[User] Well, let’s see. Let me think. No, I can’t think of anything. You got to meet and be and around a lot of interesting people in that time frame. Norman Mailer covered the space program.

[Assistant] What was your impression of him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let’s see. Let me think. No, I can’t think of anything. You got to meet and be and around a lot of interesting people in that time frame. Norman Mailer covered the space program.

[Assistant] What was your impression of him?

[User] He was different, very interesting. In fact, he was somehow tied in, I guess, with a lady who worked for\n\n Life\n\n magazine at the time. Her name was Dodie Goodwin.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know her?

[Assistant] I know that name, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was different, very interesting. In fact, he was somehow tied in, I guess, with a lady who worked for\n\n Life\n\n magazine at the time. Her name was Dodie Goodwin.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know her?

[Assistant] I know that name, yes.

[User] Okay. But I recall, in fact, we have a picture of I think it was one of the news conferences where I’m behind the glass, because we were doing it that way just to practice, I suppose, pre-mission, and Mailer is sitting out there and she is and some of the other press.\n\n [Referring to rain] Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. You’re going to drive back tonight?

[Assistant] No, we’re going to be here in town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know her?

[Assistant] I know that name, yes.

[User] Okay. But I recall, in fact, we have a picture of I think it was one of the news conferences where I’m behind the glass, because we were doing it that way just to practice, I suppose, pre-mission, and Mailer is sitting out there and she is and some of the other press.\n\n [Referring to rain] Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. You’re going to drive back tonight?

[Assistant] No, we’re going to be here in town.

[User] Oh, well, I’m glad to hear that.

[Assistant]
Yes, we are, too.\n\n I was going to ask Sandra as well, did you have any questions you’d like to ask?

I just had a couple. During the time that you were in quarantine, what exactly did you report on? Did you report on the astronauts’ day-to-day activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. But I recall, in fact, we have a picture of I think it was one of the news conferences where I’m behind the glass, because we were doing it that way just to practice, I suppose, pre-mission, and Mailer is sitting out there and she is and some of the other press.\n\n [Referring to rain] Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. You’re going to drive back tonight?

[Assistant] No, we’re going to be here in town.

[User] Oh, well, I’m glad to hear that.

[Assistant]
Yes, we are, too.\n\n I was going to ask Sandra as well, did you have any questions you’d like to ask?

I just had a couple. During the time that you were in quarantine, what exactly did you report on? Did you report on the astronauts’ day-to-day activities?

[User] Yes, that’s what you tried to do as much as you could. There was a time or two I got the astronauts a little upset with me, at least in one case, I guess it was Collins more than anything else, where there was a church service, and I reported honestly the only one that showed up was Armstrong. I guess the only reason he showed up was because I had showed him a release that said we were going to talk about this. He showed up and I guess Aldrin and Collins did not, and they were not happy.

[Assistant] Did they have any duties during that quarantine time that they were supposed to be doing, any sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, I’m glad to hear that.

[Assistant]
Yes, we are, too.\n\n I was going to ask Sandra as well, did you have any questions you’d like to ask?

I just had a couple. During the time that you were in quarantine, what exactly did you report on? Did you report on the astronauts’ day-to-day activities?

[User] Yes, that’s what you tried to do as much as you could. There was a time or two I got the astronauts a little upset with me, at least in one case, I guess it was Collins more than anything else, where there was a church service, and I reported honestly the only one that showed up was Armstrong. I guess the only reason he showed up was because I had showed him a release that said we were going to talk about this. He showed up and I guess Aldrin and Collins did not, and they were not happy.

[Assistant] Did they have any duties during that quarantine time that they were supposed to be doing, any sort of thing?

[User] No.

[Assistant] How did they pass their time or how did you pass your time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s what you tried to do as much as you could. There was a time or two I got the astronauts a little upset with me, at least in one case, I guess it was Collins more than anything else, where there was a church service, and I reported honestly the only one that showed up was Armstrong. I guess the only reason he showed up was because I had showed him a release that said we were going to talk about this. He showed up and I guess Aldrin and Collins did not, and they were not happy.

[Assistant] Did they have any duties during that quarantine time that they were supposed to be doing, any sort of thing?

[User] No.

[Assistant] How did they pass their time or how did you pass your time?

[User] Well, they had debriefings, and I did sit in on some of their debriefings to listen to those, and that was kind of a fascinating thing to do. But it was also fascinating because you could see Collins was not—he knew he was not on the surface of the Moon, so he would be sitting there reading something like\n\n Aviation Week\n\n while they were talking about all what they had done and this kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did they get to see any of the news coverage of their actual flight once they were in quarantine and any of the reactions? I’m thinking particularly the pictures that we’ve all seen of people standing in Times Square [New York City, New York] and people just watching it in awe. Did they ever get to see any of that during quarantine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] How did they pass their time or how did you pass your time?

[User] Well, they had debriefings, and I did sit in on some of their debriefings to listen to those, and that was kind of a fascinating thing to do. But it was also fascinating because you could see Collins was not—he knew he was not on the surface of the Moon, so he would be sitting there reading something like\n\n Aviation Week\n\n while they were talking about all what they had done and this kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did they get to see any of the news coverage of their actual flight once they were in quarantine and any of the reactions? I’m thinking particularly the pictures that we’ve all seen of people standing in Times Square [New York City, New York] and people just watching it in awe. Did they ever get to see any of that during quarantine?

[User] I’m not sure that they did during quarantine. They probably did afterwards. They went on this world tour. In fact, I guess Julian Scheer is the guy who led them on that, that was quite an interesting thing.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you went on the geology field trips.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they had debriefings, and I did sit in on some of their debriefings to listen to those, and that was kind of a fascinating thing to do. But it was also fascinating because you could see Collins was not—he knew he was not on the surface of the Moon, so he would be sitting there reading something like\n\n Aviation Week\n\n while they were talking about all what they had done and this kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did they get to see any of the news coverage of their actual flight once they were in quarantine and any of the reactions? I’m thinking particularly the pictures that we’ve all seen of people standing in Times Square [New York City, New York] and people just watching it in awe. Did they ever get to see any of that during quarantine?

[User] I’m not sure that they did during quarantine. They probably did afterwards. They went on this world tour. In fact, I guess Julian Scheer is the guy who led them on that, that was quite an interesting thing.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you went on the geology field trips.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go on more than one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure that they did during quarantine. They probably did afterwards. They went on this world tour. In fact, I guess Julian Scheer is the guy who led them on that, that was quite an interesting thing.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you went on the geology field trips.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go on more than one?

[User] I went on, it seems to me, two or three.

[Assistant] What were your duties while you were on those trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go on more than one?

[User] I went on, it seems to me, two or three.

[Assistant] What were your duties while you were on those trips?

[User] To deal with the press.

[Assistant] Just the press that would be there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went on, it seems to me, two or three.

[Assistant] What were your duties while you were on those trips?

[User] To deal with the press.

[Assistant] Just the press that would be there?

[User] Yes, those were all on the Big Island. You started in Honolulu [Hawaii], okay, and I guess that became such a good deal because the Hawaiian Village Hotel took us in and really gave you first-class royal treatment. I recall one of them—who was it? Aldrin was there, and he had some good-looking chick with him, not his wife, obviously, since she was back in Houston or wherever, but they were introducing them and that kind of got to him, and you could see that he was trying to not show up too good. But the shows were really quite good. That’s when Hilo Hattie—know the name? Well, she was a big entertainer in that era. Because this was—when—the middle sixties. Yes.\n\n No, that’s mainly what you did. You dealt with the press that was there.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like never a day went by that you weren’t doing something different from the day before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To deal with the press.

[Assistant] Just the press that would be there?

[User] Yes, those were all on the Big Island. You started in Honolulu [Hawaii], okay, and I guess that became such a good deal because the Hawaiian Village Hotel took us in and really gave you first-class royal treatment. I recall one of them—who was it? Aldrin was there, and he had some good-looking chick with him, not his wife, obviously, since she was back in Houston or wherever, but they were introducing them and that kind of got to him, and you could see that he was trying to not show up too good. But the shows were really quite good. That’s when Hilo Hattie—know the name? Well, she was a big entertainer in that era. Because this was—when—the middle sixties. Yes.\n\n No, that’s mainly what you did. You dealt with the press that was there.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like never a day went by that you weren’t doing something different from the day before.

[User] Well, it was an interesting time in my life, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] One thing that I didn’t ask you about that is kind of the obvious, but maybe not the most interesting, was all the paperwork that you had to do. Was there a lot of procedural writing and structuring and that type of work where you were at your desk doing administrative work or was your role such that that wasn’t a big part of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, those were all on the Big Island. You started in Honolulu [Hawaii], okay, and I guess that became such a good deal because the Hawaiian Village Hotel took us in and really gave you first-class royal treatment. I recall one of them—who was it? Aldrin was there, and he had some good-looking chick with him, not his wife, obviously, since she was back in Houston or wherever, but they were introducing them and that kind of got to him, and you could see that he was trying to not show up too good. But the shows were really quite good. That’s when Hilo Hattie—know the name? Well, she was a big entertainer in that era. Because this was—when—the middle sixties. Yes.\n\n No, that’s mainly what you did. You dealt with the press that was there.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like never a day went by that you weren’t doing something different from the day before.

[User] Well, it was an interesting time in my life, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] One thing that I didn’t ask you about that is kind of the obvious, but maybe not the most interesting, was all the paperwork that you had to do. Was there a lot of procedural writing and structuring and that type of work where you were at your desk doing administrative work or was your role such that that wasn’t a big part of it?

[User] Well, that was a part. For example, I did write the ground rules for the pool operation that we later went to.

[Assistant] How were those received by the press?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was an interesting time in my life, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] One thing that I didn’t ask you about that is kind of the obvious, but maybe not the most interesting, was all the paperwork that you had to do. Was there a lot of procedural writing and structuring and that type of work where you were at your desk doing administrative work or was your role such that that wasn’t a big part of it?

[User] Well, that was a part. For example, I did write the ground rules for the pool operation that we later went to.

[Assistant] How were those received by the press?

[User] They tended to like it. I mean, they liked the fact they were inside, and I guess it worked out pretty well.

[Assistant] Your staff, did they travel quite a bit throughout the missions or were they pretty much housed at the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was a part. For example, I did write the ground rules for the pool operation that we later went to.

[Assistant] How were those received by the press?

[User] They tended to like it. I mean, they liked the fact they were inside, and I guess it worked out pretty well.

[Assistant] Your staff, did they travel quite a bit throughout the missions or were they pretty much housed at the—

[User] Well, it depended on which mission. Jack Riley, for example, spent a lot of time in Moscow [Russia] before the joint Apollo-Soyuz mission.

[Assistant] Did you end up traveling quite a bit other than those ones that you mentioned, or were you pretty much at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] or at Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tended to like it. I mean, they liked the fact they were inside, and I guess it worked out pretty well.

[Assistant] Your staff, did they travel quite a bit throughout the missions or were they pretty much housed at the—

[User] Well, it depended on which mission. Jack Riley, for example, spent a lot of time in Moscow [Russia] before the joint Apollo-Soyuz mission.

[Assistant] Did you end up traveling quite a bit other than those ones that you mentioned, or were you pretty much at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] or at Houston?

[User] I was mainly at the Cape or Houston. When we used Jack mainly, he became our Soviet or Russian expert, and he dealt with some young guy over there that is probably an old guy now, named Dennis Shinko [phonetic], who may no longer be in power or doing anything.

[Assistant] Did you have any interactions with the Russians that came here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it depended on which mission. Jack Riley, for example, spent a lot of time in Moscow [Russia] before the joint Apollo-Soyuz mission.

[Assistant] Did you end up traveling quite a bit other than those ones that you mentioned, or were you pretty much at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] or at Houston?

[User] I was mainly at the Cape or Houston. When we used Jack mainly, he became our Soviet or Russian expert, and he dealt with some young guy over there that is probably an old guy now, named Dennis Shinko [phonetic], who may no longer be in power or doing anything.

[Assistant] Did you have any interactions with the Russians that came here?

[User] Yes. Yes, I did. In fact, I think in the TV room in there I’ve got a thing of our joint—well, it’s the thing we used in the newsroom. It was kind of part in Russian and part in U.S.

[Assistant] Well, I’ll have to take a look at that and see that. What an interesting time especially since you had served in the Air Force during those cold war days and now that you were working with the Russians in the space agency, it’s quite a change of time in just twenty years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was mainly at the Cape or Houston. When we used Jack mainly, he became our Soviet or Russian expert, and he dealt with some young guy over there that is probably an old guy now, named Dennis Shinko [phonetic], who may no longer be in power or doing anything.

[Assistant] Did you have any interactions with the Russians that came here?

[User] Yes. Yes, I did. In fact, I think in the TV room in there I’ve got a thing of our joint—well, it’s the thing we used in the newsroom. It was kind of part in Russian and part in U.S.

[Assistant] Well, I’ll have to take a look at that and see that. What an interesting time especially since you had served in the Air Force during those cold war days and now that you were working with the Russians in the space agency, it’s quite a change of time in just twenty years.

[User] Well, yes, it was quite a change. Yes, it was. In fact, in the Air Force I was stationed in Taiwan, I think I’d mentioned to you. That’s when the Chinese Communists were shelling Quemoy, and that was an interesting time, too, because they had this plan where they did it only on odd days or something. That was back in the early or late fifties.

[Assistant] Well, it seems like you have had quite an interesting life and met a tremendous amount of different people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, I did. In fact, I think in the TV room in there I’ve got a thing of our joint—well, it’s the thing we used in the newsroom. It was kind of part in Russian and part in U.S.

[Assistant] Well, I’ll have to take a look at that and see that. What an interesting time especially since you had served in the Air Force during those cold war days and now that you were working with the Russians in the space agency, it’s quite a change of time in just twenty years.

[User] Well, yes, it was quite a change. Yes, it was. In fact, in the Air Force I was stationed in Taiwan, I think I’d mentioned to you. That’s when the Chinese Communists were shelling Quemoy, and that was an interesting time, too, because they had this plan where they did it only on odd days or something. That was back in the early or late fifties.

[Assistant] Well, it seems like you have had quite an interesting life and met a tremendous amount of different people.

[User] Yes. Yes. I have enjoyed a lot of it.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly have enjoyed the time with you this afternoon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, it was quite a change. Yes, it was. In fact, in the Air Force I was stationed in Taiwan, I think I’d mentioned to you. That’s when the Chinese Communists were shelling Quemoy, and that was an interesting time, too, because they had this plan where they did it only on odd days or something. That was back in the early or late fifties.

[Assistant] Well, it seems like you have had quite an interesting life and met a tremendous amount of different people.

[User] Yes. Yes. I have enjoyed a lot of it.

[Assistant] Well, we certainly have enjoyed the time with you this afternoon.

[User] Well, thank you.

[Assistant] We have learned a lot. Again, we thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] Last time we talked through a good portion of your career, and we worked up to some of the most recent activities you were involved with. So I want to pick up today talking about some of your involvement with the Shuttle-Mir program and the beginnings of that agreement with Russia over there and building that connection between the two operations groups and how you would support the people over there, the U.S. citizens working in the control center in Russia, that sort of thing.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] If you could tell us a little bit about how that all worked.

[User] Well, at the time that we really entered into operations development for the Shuttle-Mir program, there were so many other things going on also in the directorate that we decided to focus most of that activity in our flight director's office, as I recall, arranging that. Of course, we stayed very much in touch with that, but some of our flight directors definitely had the lead in working the interface with the Moscow control center, how we would arrange all that. We very much stayed involved with all of the requirements that were being put in place and the protocols on who would do what and how we would reach agreement on operations matters during the mission and all of that. But it was very much focused in our flight control elements and in the flight director's office.

[Assistant] Did you have to get involved at all more on a level where diplomatic concerns came into play?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they're still doing that today. I mean, that's how they're having to work things out.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all in setting up the agreements as to how the operations would be managed for the Space Station when that came into play?

[User] Yes. Again, in terms of having a mission operations and NASA human space flight operations' outlook and philosophy incorporated in those agreements. But there again, we had people who were traveling a great deal to Russia and working the details of that, and of course we were working with the program, too, to provide our ideas. Most of the dealing were in working groups and committees set up by the programs, where yes, MOD did chair some of that activity, but most of it was chaired by the program and we played our role in trying to reach agreement on operations.

[Assistant] Certainly some interesting things that were going on during that time frame.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, around this time, too, and as these agreements were all being worked out, you became involved with the Operation Streamlining team which transitioned into the base operations office. This appeared to be a NASA-wide-type organization to begin with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there also just hesitation in general about such a different way of doing things?

[User] There was, and I really want to be fair to the centers and the programs and the projects. It wasn't just that they totally wanted control for control's sake. NASA's programs are always evolving at a pace that, what you are sure are your requirements today as the program evolves, as you get results from the program, or as the development process goes forward, your requirements change. So that defeats some of the fixed price, "We know exactly what we want, and we'll just contract for that." It defeats that particular approach, which is more common in, you know, the telecommunications industry. So these people were concerned about what process they'd have to go through, would the whole thing be flexible enough to support them?\n\n Indeed, one of the problems, if you want to term it that way, on that whole contracting arrangement is that there's been such growth in the requirements since the contract was originally let. At quick glance, if you look at the total amount of money required, it makes it look like, well, they weren't as efficient as they should be. You have to take into account what was added to the contract after it was originally put in place. So it's an interesting challenge, like most of the challenges in operations in NASA.

[Assistant] And then it's still a relatively young challenge that's been started, thinking of the age of the space program and all.

[User] Yes, and we took advantage early on of a lot of things that came from the DOD. For what it's worth now, the DOD is looking very hard at the experience in SOMO and CSOC, the positives and the speed bumps that were encountered, because they are considering privatizing the ranges, the eastern test range and the western test range. So they're trying to learn from NASA's experience.

[Assistant] Well, that's good that they're able to build on that, and maybe it'll be of benefit to both agencies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there would be quite a facility expense related to that. I'm not sure what the recent planning is. Yes, from a historical sense one of the Apollo control rooms is still maintained much as it was. It's a national historic site. I mean, the displays and that aren't active in that anymore, but it's still there.\n\n One of the things that makes it rather expensive to provide access to any of these facilities is the access that you have to provide for people who have physical problems. It's very difficult to figure out how you can bring people in and take care of getting them to upper floors by some elevator path that doesn't now exist that won't interfere with everyday business. That's the big thing about all the tour activity, it cannot interfere with day-to-day training or operations activities.\n\n That's also the great thing about the tour. They're actually watching real things going on, but in order to allow the public to do that and not interfere with or distract people who are carrying out those activities is a challenge. That put a little bit of a limit on what you could do.

[Assistant] I certainly understand. They are doing an important job.

[User] Yes. But that's one of, I think, the really great things about Space Center Houston. There is no venue or mock-up or anything on any level that's not completely accessible, and I think that's wonderful. It's not only required, but I think that's a very, very good requirement. You really want to open it up so that everybody can see.

[Assistant] Absolutely. They always seem like they're having fun whenever I'm over there. You can see the kids having a great time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You eventually did move on and retire from NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But that's one of, I think, the really great things about Space Center Houston. There is no venue or mock-up or anything on any level that's not completely accessible, and I think that's wonderful. It's not only required, but I think that's a very, very good requirement. You really want to open it up so that everybody can see.

[Assistant] Absolutely. They always seem like they're having fun whenever I'm over there. You can see the kids having a great time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You eventually did move on and retire from NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you've moved into consulting. You work with USRA [Universities Space Research Association] and I believe you're in USA [United Space Alliance] to some extent. Can you mention anything about some of your reasons for moving on? Was it just time to move into a new area for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You eventually did move on and retire from NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you've moved into consulting. You work with USRA [Universities Space Research Association] and I believe you're in USA [United Space Alliance] to some extent. Can you mention anything about some of your reasons for moving on? Was it just time to move into a new area for you?

[User] Well, a whole lot of it had to do with the Space Operations Management Office and the impending CSOC, or Consolidated Space Operations Contract. I was already sixty-seven, nearly sixty-eight, years old when I retired, and I really felt that the people who would manage and operate the CSOC contract and SOMO, in the long haul, needed to be the ones in place when the RFP [request for proposal] was finally issued and when the Source Evaluation Board was really going through their activity.\n\n I was there through the issuance of the RFP for the Phase A studies, and I stayed through the completion of that, but when you are going to go for the long-haul contract, it really seemed to me that I needed to move on and turn it over to the people who would really operate and manage the contract for the long haul. So that was a big part of my decision.\n\n And age-wise, it seemed like the right time, although I only stayed really retired for about six months and found out I wasn't as ready to—mainly not interact with the people. I missed the people. I missed being involved in what was going on. I know I've repeated this to a lot of people, but I do have to say it's nice to not be any longer responsible for the budget or those budget cuts or for the personnel matters. But I just couldn't get away from wanting to be involved on the program. So if there's an area where I really think I can contribute and the company thinks I can contribute, yes, I work at it. I try to.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been involved with at USRA? Since that's dealing with students, it must be a slightly different area for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They have a much broader base than a lot of people would think.

[Assistant] That's great. Hopefully, that's all working out well for you, in that you're able to work when you want to.

[User] Yes. Yes. I end up with the inevitable conflicts of different companies that I'm working with having important meetings at the same time, like working for NASA when you were always having trouble keeping your time and schedule together.

[Assistant] I think sometimes it's hard to avoid in any job.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, it took a lot of different people to make everything happen, make it all come together for the various programs. Are there any individuals that had a significant impact on you personally or that you think were had a vital contribution to the program that you'd like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Just how great it's been, the years working with NASA. I never could have imagined as we're driving into Houston coming here from Albuquerque [New Mexico], how things would unfold and how really interesting it would be and what great people I would work with. It's still so good to see them, and it's still a pleasure to look back on what we've accomplished over the years. So it's been a great run.

[Assistant] That's good, and it's very fortunate that you are able to say that.

[User] Yes. I really feel that way.

[Assistant] Well, we appreciate you sharing those experiences and that great run with us.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] It's certainly been very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s interesting. During the space program I was often in Houston.

[Assistant] It’s changed, hasn’t it?

[User] More times than I would like, and [Apollo] 11 was the prime example. When Henry and I were in that auditorium and when 11 landed, and we walked out, it must have been about 1:30 in the morning, maybe 2:00, and it was like a big gorilla had jumped on our shoulders. It was unbelievable. Richard Underwood, I was talking to him and a couple of other people. I said, “Now are you Navy?”\n\n “Yes, I’m Navy, going way way back.”\n\n I said, “What did you do for air-conditioning?”\n\n He said, “You get up in the morning at 7:00, or maybe 6:00, and you have breakfast and you start to work at 7:00 and you work till 11:00. Then you go home and try to relax for three hours. Then you go back to work, work till 7:00 at night. That’s the only way you can exist.” You stop to think, like this.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s a different environment. Usually if you come there’s a few times a year where the weather is really nice and it’s nice to be here. But the majority of the time it’s either hot and humid or cold and humid. We have those nice days every once in a while, but it doesn’t last unfortunately.

[User] It’s overcast now too.

[Assistant] Yes. Yesterday was lovely and then today is all overcast.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s overcast now too.

[Assistant] Yes. Yesterday was lovely and then today is all overcast.

[User] Yes, it was nice. We have overcast skies where we are in San Diego because in the summertime you got the marine layer comes in. People are living close to the ocean, they may not see the Sun for a whole week. A lot of times. My wife and I live inland by 15 miles or so. But we have direct view of the ocean. Every now and then we get a call from people in Point Loma that we know. “Hey, what’s for dinner tonight? We haven’t seen the Sun for a week!” But you take it into account. Of course San Francisco, I grew up there next to the city. What did Mark Twain say? “That was the coldest summer he ever spent”.

[Assistant] Right. In Texas they always say, “If you don’t like Texas weather just wait a minute.” Because it’ll change for sure.\n\n I just had a couple more questions and then Jennifer said she’s thought of some things. We could probably talk a lot longer on Surveyor and those images, but I know a lot of it is documented. We’re always interested in the human side of it, your experiences, and that sort of thing. I know you worked through the Apollo Program, and then you left and went on to something else. You started your own business.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What made you decide to leave working with NASA or through JPL?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So welcome. So I'll ask my usual first question. Why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was working in Chicago for the Encyclopedia Britannica and I was on their management team and one of my jobs was to arrange the retirement dinners for people who were put in their 30 and 40 years. We always gave them a gold watch as a going away present, and it dawned on me that just as their time was running out, that we were giving them a watch. This is where I could be in 30 years. And so there's got to be something else out there. And it was thankfully. There was the Peace Corps, so that's why I joined.

[Assistant] And how did you know about Peace Corps?

[User] Well, in the 1960 campaign I voted for, my vote went to Nixon. But then when Kennedy spoke.

[Assistant] You were inspired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was working in Chicago for the Encyclopedia Britannica and I was on their management team and one of my jobs was to arrange the retirement dinners for people who were put in their 30 and 40 years. We always gave them a gold watch as a going away present, and it dawned on me that just as their time was running out, that we were giving them a watch. This is where I could be in 30 years. And so there's got to be something else out there. And it was thankfully. There was the Peace Corps, so that's why I joined.

[Assistant] And how did you know about Peace Corps?

[User] Well, in the 1960 campaign I voted for, my vote went to Nixon. But then when Kennedy spoke.

[Assistant] You were inspired?

[User] That's where my heart went.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. So you applied for Peace Corps? And did you have to wait a long time to get in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in the 1960 campaign I voted for, my vote went to Nixon. But then when Kennedy spoke.

[Assistant] You were inspired?

[User] That's where my heart went.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. So you applied for Peace Corps? And did you have to wait a long time to get in?

[User] No, actually, it was very quick. I got a call one night at dinner. I lived in Chicago and I got a call from. It was my sister answered the phone and said it was the White House calling. And so I went to the phone and person identified herself as a recruiter for Peace Corps. She was recruiting for Ethiopia, and I didn't know at the time, but that was Harris Wofford's first program. And so I said, well, how many people will be in the program? She said, oh there'll be 300. And I said, well, thank you, but I'm not interested in being with a group of 300. So she said, would you be interested in other programs? I said, yeah. So they called other times, but not from the White House. Other invitations. And on the seventh one, it was Colombia.

[Assistant] They called you seven times?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's where my heart went.

[Assistant] Yeah, good. So you applied for Peace Corps? And did you have to wait a long time to get in?

[User] No, actually, it was very quick. I got a call one night at dinner. I lived in Chicago and I got a call from. It was my sister answered the phone and said it was the White House calling. And so I went to the phone and person identified herself as a recruiter for Peace Corps. She was recruiting for Ethiopia, and I didn't know at the time, but that was Harris Wofford's first program. And so I said, well, how many people will be in the program? She said, oh there'll be 300. And I said, well, thank you, but I'm not interested in being with a group of 300. So she said, would you be interested in other programs? I said, yeah. So they called other times, but not from the White House. Other invitations. And on the seventh one, it was Colombia.

[Assistant] They called you seven times?

[User] Six times and then the seventh one was Colombia.

[Assistant] I guess they really wanted you, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, actually, it was very quick. I got a call one night at dinner. I lived in Chicago and I got a call from. It was my sister answered the phone and said it was the White House calling. And so I went to the phone and person identified herself as a recruiter for Peace Corps. She was recruiting for Ethiopia, and I didn't know at the time, but that was Harris Wofford's first program. And so I said, well, how many people will be in the program? She said, oh there'll be 300. And I said, well, thank you, but I'm not interested in being with a group of 300. So she said, would you be interested in other programs? I said, yeah. So they called other times, but not from the White House. Other invitations. And on the seventh one, it was Colombia.

[Assistant] They called you seven times?

[User] Six times and then the seventh one was Colombia.

[Assistant] I guess they really wanted you, huh?

[User] Well, they were, you know, they had a very active recruitment effort. And when I said how many people in the program and they said it's an all-male program, very small, only 23. I said, that's mine. I like small like that.

[Assistant] How old were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Six times and then the seventh one was Colombia.

[Assistant] I guess they really wanted you, huh?

[User] Well, they were, you know, they had a very active recruitment effort. And when I said how many people in the program and they said it's an all-male program, very small, only 23. I said, that's mine. I like small like that.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User] Twenty nine.

[Assistant] You were 29. So you were among the mature people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were, you know, they had a very active recruitment effort. And when I said how many people in the program and they said it's an all-male program, very small, only 23. I said, that's mine. I like small like that.

[Assistant] How old were you?

[User] Twenty nine.

[Assistant] You were 29. So you were among the mature people.

[User] I was long in the tooth. I had done my military first before college and in the military. I was with a very small unit. I like small. In a big world, I like small.

[Assistant] Well, great. So you finally accepted Colombia. Where did you train?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty nine.

[Assistant] You were 29. So you were among the mature people.

[User] I was long in the tooth. I had done my military first before college and in the military. I was with a very small unit. I like small. In a big world, I like small.

[Assistant] Well, great. So you finally accepted Colombia. Where did you train?

[User] We assembled for five days of orientation in New York City. We then went to Puerto Rico for 30 days of Outward Bound training. And then we went to the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Wisconsin, Milwaukee. For three and a half months of academic training, and then back to Puerto Rico to actually work in an active cooperative for a month. So we'd have a feel of what it was like. So it was a fairly long.

[Assistant] Did you like the Outward Bound part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was long in the tooth. I had done my military first before college and in the military. I was with a very small unit. I like small. In a big world, I like small.

[Assistant] Well, great. So you finally accepted Colombia. Where did you train?

[User] We assembled for five days of orientation in New York City. We then went to Puerto Rico for 30 days of Outward Bound training. And then we went to the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Wisconsin, Milwaukee. For three and a half months of academic training, and then back to Puerto Rico to actually work in an active cooperative for a month. So we'd have a feel of what it was like. So it was a fairly long.

[Assistant] Did you like the Outward Bound part?

[User] Loved it, loved it. And it was a, no one knew each other until we got into that swimming pool, so to speak. Or into those arduous hikes that they put you through, but 30 days really bonded you quickly.

[Assistant] That's great. And was the training in Milwaukee good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We assembled for five days of orientation in New York City. We then went to Puerto Rico for 30 days of Outward Bound training. And then we went to the University of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Wisconsin, Milwaukee. For three and a half months of academic training, and then back to Puerto Rico to actually work in an active cooperative for a month. So we'd have a feel of what it was like. So it was a fairly long.

[Assistant] Did you like the Outward Bound part?

[User] Loved it, loved it. And it was a, no one knew each other until we got into that swimming pool, so to speak. Or into those arduous hikes that they put you through, but 30 days really bonded you quickly.

[Assistant] That's great. And was the training in Milwaukee good?

[User] It was very good, very good. Language training, very good. Academic training and economics, very good. And the history of cooperatives and what cooperatives, you know, the many different forms of cooperatives. So it gave us a good background for what we were to do in Colombia.

[Assistant] And then you did, I guess, practice cooperative work in Puerto Rico.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Loved it, loved it. And it was a, no one knew each other until we got into that swimming pool, so to speak. Or into those arduous hikes that they put you through, but 30 days really bonded you quickly.

[Assistant] That's great. And was the training in Milwaukee good?

[User] It was very good, very good. Language training, very good. Academic training and economics, very good. And the history of cooperatives and what cooperatives, you know, the many different forms of cooperatives. So it gave us a good background for what we were to do in Colombia.

[Assistant] And then you did, I guess, practice cooperative work in Puerto Rico.

[User] In Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] What kind of a cooperative was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very good, very good. Language training, very good. Academic training and economics, very good. And the history of cooperatives and what cooperatives, you know, the many different forms of cooperatives. So it gave us a good background for what we were to do in Colombia.

[Assistant] And then you did, I guess, practice cooperative work in Puerto Rico.

[User] In Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] What kind of a cooperative was that?

[User] It was an agricultural cooperative, everything from coffee to beans and corn, but it gave you a feel for how to manage a business. Basically, it was a management sort of a management course. So when we got to Colombia, we had I think it was five days of orientation in Bogota and then we split up. And on the day we were to go out to our sites, the Peace Corps director came in to talk to us and said, well, now you're ready to go and we'll see you in six months. For a reunion sort of a meeting. So we had figured that we had six months to do something or show that we could do something. And I was posted to to a very small village, three thousand people.

[Assistant] What was the name of the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] What kind of a cooperative was that?

[User] It was an agricultural cooperative, everything from coffee to beans and corn, but it gave you a feel for how to manage a business. Basically, it was a management sort of a management course. So when we got to Colombia, we had I think it was five days of orientation in Bogota and then we split up. And on the day we were to go out to our sites, the Peace Corps director came in to talk to us and said, well, now you're ready to go and we'll see you in six months. For a reunion sort of a meeting. So we had figured that we had six months to do something or show that we could do something. And I was posted to to a very small village, three thousand people.

[Assistant] What was the name of the village?

[User] It's called La Plata, in the Department of Huila, which had just gone through the long civil war in Colombia. Most of it was pacified. But all the other guys in our group went to big cities like Cali and Cartagena and Medellin. I couldn't figure out why this small town, 3,000 people, you know, sent me to. And when I got there, I couldn't find anyone that had requested a volunteer or knew anything about why one should be there.

[Assistant] Did they know you were coming?