[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A fun and a very rewarding career.

[Assistant] What’s it been like to be the first female project manager in the Shuttle projects area?

[User] I’d say it’s been fun and challenging. I have had a lot of great mentors and team members who supported me. The pressure to succeed was probably more self-inflicted. I didn’t want to let the team, the community, the astronauts, or myself down. As for being the first female project manager in Shuttle, everyone has treated me very much as an equal and been very supportive. I have never felt so supported by a team in my life! It’s was a great job. It was also a very proud moment to be able to do that.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine.

[User] It’s like with any team, you don’t do it alone. I had to rely on the great folks around me. They know more than I do and support me. I must rely on their expertise. RSRB is a great team. We had a lot of fun despite the seriousness of our job. Hopefully, I helped “open the doors” for other folks.

[Assistant] Every time we look at the Shuttle Program we’re just amazed how it was able to get off the ground. There are so many components and so much that has to come together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d say it’s been fun and challenging. I have had a lot of great mentors and team members who supported me. The pressure to succeed was probably more self-inflicted. I didn’t want to let the team, the community, the astronauts, or myself down. As for being the first female project manager in Shuttle, everyone has treated me very much as an equal and been very supportive. I have never felt so supported by a team in my life! It’s was a great job. It was also a very proud moment to be able to do that.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine.

[User] It’s like with any team, you don’t do it alone. I had to rely on the great folks around me. They know more than I do and support me. I must rely on their expertise. RSRB is a great team. We had a lot of fun despite the seriousness of our job. Hopefully, I helped “open the doors” for other folks.

[Assistant] Every time we look at the Shuttle Program we’re just amazed how it was able to get off the ground. There are so many components and so much that has to come together.

[User] So much complexity, there really is.

[Assistant] I thought we would turn our attention to retirement of the Shuttle, given your current position. I was curious if you could give us the status of the three elements right now in the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My name is Iris Nagler.

[Assistant] And where do you live?

[User] I live in Laverock, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And, um, can you describe what your present work is or your family or current? Your current residence you've given. Your interests?

[User] Um, employment. I am coordinator of Title II Part A of the No Child Left Behind Act, and I am a State Department of Education employee from the state of New Jersey. I am married. My husband and I, Stephen, were Peace Corps volunteers. And we have two grown children, our daughter Betsy and our son Matthew. And we also have two grandchildren, Joshua, who is going to be four, and Aaron who is just a year old.

[Assistant] Iris, what made you apply for the Peace Corps? How did that all come about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I live in Laverock, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] And, um, can you describe what your present work is or your family or current? Your current residence you've given. Your interests?

[User] Um, employment. I am coordinator of Title II Part A of the No Child Left Behind Act, and I am a State Department of Education employee from the state of New Jersey. I am married. My husband and I, Stephen, were Peace Corps volunteers. And we have two grown children, our daughter Betsy and our son Matthew. And we also have two grandchildren, Joshua, who is going to be four, and Aaron who is just a year old.

[Assistant] Iris, what made you apply for the Peace Corps? How did that all come about?

[User] Well, we were, uh, actively involved with the election of Kennedy, John Kennedy, and an admirer of him as a person. And when he announced the, uh, development of the Peace Corps, it sounded like a perfect thing for us to do because we, we knew that we would want to do this right after we finished college. I had received a bachelor's degree at Queens College, and Steve had just passed the bar. And so we thought that if we were ever going to do it, it was best to do it then before we decided to move on with our careers.

[Assistant] What did your parents or if you had siblings and friends, what did they say when you told them you were going into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, employment. I am coordinator of Title II Part A of the No Child Left Behind Act, and I am a State Department of Education employee from the state of New Jersey. I am married. My husband and I, Stephen, were Peace Corps volunteers. And we have two grown children, our daughter Betsy and our son Matthew. And we also have two grandchildren, Joshua, who is going to be four, and Aaron who is just a year old.

[Assistant] Iris, what made you apply for the Peace Corps? How did that all come about?

[User] Well, we were, uh, actively involved with the election of Kennedy, John Kennedy, and an admirer of him as a person. And when he announced the, uh, development of the Peace Corps, it sounded like a perfect thing for us to do because we, we knew that we would want to do this right after we finished college. I had received a bachelor's degree at Queens College, and Steve had just passed the bar. And so we thought that if we were ever going to do it, it was best to do it then before we decided to move on with our careers.

[Assistant] What did your parents or if you had siblings and friends, what did they say when you told them you were going into the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, um, my parents weren't overly excited about it, but then again, we had already been married a year and a half. We were adults, and so, uh, they accepted it. You know, we, you know, we were free people. You know, we weren't dependents anymore. So, um, it was a very exciting time for us.

[Assistant] Did you have any specific country in mind when you went to join the Peace Corps and how did it come about that you went to Nyasaland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember. I don't remember the people who were deselected either. And I was pretty, Steve and I were pretty confident that we would get selected. And as it turned out, we were.

[Assistant] Did you feel, it's kind of in hindsight, but do you feel that the training prepared you for, for going to Malawi and that it was useful for the Peace Corps service?

[User] Part of the training was useful. Learning about the political situation, the history of Malawi, and the language training especially was very useful. But, but what we found out from a lot of our trainers is they really couldn't tell us a lot about Malawi. They knew about other countries in the surrounding area, but not Malawi. That was, that was really a running joke that often they would say, well, I don't know anything about Malawi, but I know about this country or that country. And we were interested in finding out about the climate and what kinds of amenities, you know, what did we have to bring in the way of, of materials to prepare us for being there? I mean just, what kind of clothing and so on. And basically that, that was something that we really didn't have a clue about until we arrived.

[Assistant] What was your initial entry like into Nyasaland?

[User] Well, I remember getting off the plane after close to three days of travel.

[Assistant] What do you remember about that, that stands out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I remember getting off the plane after close to three days of travel.

[Assistant] What do you remember about that, that stands out?

[User] Something that stands out?

[Assistant] Feelings?

[User] Excitement. Excitement about being in a totally new place. Totally new. I knew that we were going to have a totally new experience.

[Assistant] Um, was there anything visual?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something that stands out?

[Assistant] Feelings?

[User] Excitement. Excitement about being in a totally new place. Totally new. I knew that we were going to have a totally new experience.

[Assistant] Um, was there anything visual?

[User] The landscape was very different from what we were accustomed to. The, the low lying trees, the warm climate. I remember being happy that it wasn't as hot and humid as it was in, uh, in Dar es Salaam. We spent one night there and I thought I would die from suffocation. And then we landed in Malawi and it was 100 percent better. The climate was almost like, what I heard, was a lot like California.

[Assistant] Okay. Can you, would you describe your project and any memories of the staff, uh, impression of people of the country? This was a lot of different topics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Excitement. Excitement about being in a totally new place. Totally new. I knew that we were going to have a totally new experience.

[Assistant] Um, was there anything visual?

[User] The landscape was very different from what we were accustomed to. The, the low lying trees, the warm climate. I remember being happy that it wasn't as hot and humid as it was in, uh, in Dar es Salaam. We spent one night there and I thought I would die from suffocation. And then we landed in Malawi and it was 100 percent better. The climate was almost like, what I heard, was a lot like California.

[Assistant] Okay. Can you, would you describe your project and any memories of the staff, uh, impression of people of the country? This was a lot of different topics.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But physical environment, role of the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The landscape was very different from what we were accustomed to. The, the low lying trees, the warm climate. I remember being happy that it wasn't as hot and humid as it was in, uh, in Dar es Salaam. We spent one night there and I thought I would die from suffocation. And then we landed in Malawi and it was 100 percent better. The climate was almost like, what I heard, was a lot like California.

[Assistant] Okay. Can you, would you describe your project and any memories of the staff, uh, impression of people of the country? This was a lot of different topics.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But physical environment, role of the language?

[User] Um, well, first, first the group that was. We were, we were based at a CCAP mission school, Henry Henderson Institute. It was a day school. It had once been a boarding school. Our accommodations were quite comfortable. We, uh, there were initially two other couples. There was another couple, the Taylors, who were there, and then later the Thomases. So on this mission, there were three.

[Assistant] And they were Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I remember correctly, they did.

[Assistant] And you didn't change that? There was?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No, no. I preferred to maintain a teacher-student relationship. I felt that I was more comfortable with that. It was, it wasn't a strict, you know, relationship. That is, I was certainly a little more lenient than, than the local teachers. Nevertheless, I preferred to maintain that, that kind of respect because I felt that they would learn more from me than, than if I were a pal. But that wasn't true. My husband's attitude was a little different about that, but that didn't mean that he wasn't any more successful at what he was doing, although I never sat in on his classes. He obviously enjoyed what he was teaching.

[Assistant]
I taught all the sciences from general science to biology, chemistry, and physics. With regard to physics, I was always one step ahead of my students because I didn't have, I hadn't taken more than one semester of physics, so I wasn't that well versed in it. But the textbooks we had, even though they were quite old, were sufficient to provide the information necessary to teach them. So that, you know, if I studied a day in advance, I would have enough information. And I really loved science and had a good enough background to teach them a lot of hands on experimental.

Did you find they asked, raised their hand to ask questions, had interaction a lot? Or were they, did they sit back and rote memory?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No, no. I preferred to maintain a teacher-student relationship. I felt that I was more comfortable with that. It was, it wasn't a strict, you know, relationship. That is, I was certainly a little more lenient than, than the local teachers. Nevertheless, I preferred to maintain that, that kind of respect because I felt that they would learn more from me than, than if I were a pal. But that wasn't true. My husband's attitude was a little different about that, but that didn't mean that he wasn't any more successful at what he was doing, although I never sat in on his classes. He obviously enjoyed what he was teaching.

[Assistant]
I taught all the sciences from general science to biology, chemistry, and physics. With regard to physics, I was always one step ahead of my students because I didn't have, I hadn't taken more than one semester of physics, so I wasn't that well versed in it. But the textbooks we had, even though they were quite old, were sufficient to provide the information necessary to teach them. So that, you know, if I studied a day in advance, I would have enough information. And I really loved science and had a good enough background to teach them a lot of hands on experimental.

Did you find they asked, raised their hand to ask questions, had interaction a lot? Or were they, did they sit back and rote memory?

[User] It was a lot of lecture and writing on the board and giving them notes and so on. But I think as time went by they relaxed a little more and I encouraged them to ask questions. So there was, there was, there was give and take.

[Assistant] What about Peace Corps staff, your impressions and the interaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I preferred to maintain a teacher-student relationship. I felt that I was more comfortable with that. It was, it wasn't a strict, you know, relationship. That is, I was certainly a little more lenient than, than the local teachers. Nevertheless, I preferred to maintain that, that kind of respect because I felt that they would learn more from me than, than if I were a pal. But that wasn't true. My husband's attitude was a little different about that, but that didn't mean that he wasn't any more successful at what he was doing, although I never sat in on his classes. He obviously enjoyed what he was teaching.

[Assistant]
I taught all the sciences from general science to biology, chemistry, and physics. With regard to physics, I was always one step ahead of my students because I didn't have, I hadn't taken more than one semester of physics, so I wasn't that well versed in it. But the textbooks we had, even though they were quite old, were sufficient to provide the information necessary to teach them. So that, you know, if I studied a day in advance, I would have enough information. And I really loved science and had a good enough background to teach them a lot of hands on experimental.

Did you find they asked, raised their hand to ask questions, had interaction a lot? Or were they, did they sit back and rote memory?

[User] It was a lot of lecture and writing on the board and giving them notes and so on. But I think as time went by they relaxed a little more and I encouraged them to ask questions. So there was, there was, there was give and take.

[Assistant] What about Peace Corps staff, your impressions and the interaction?

[User] Well, of course, we were friendly with the other couples on the campus. And then in the second year, there was another group that came over and I think we had good relationships with them.

[Assistant] Who were your staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a lot of lecture and writing on the board and giving them notes and so on. But I think as time went by they relaxed a little more and I encouraged them to ask questions. So there was, there was, there was give and take.

[Assistant] What about Peace Corps staff, your impressions and the interaction?

[User] Well, of course, we were friendly with the other couples on the campus. And then in the second year, there was another group that came over and I think we had good relationships with them.

[Assistant] Who were your staff?

[User] Um, there was Dave and Virginia Kaler.

[Assistant] Peace Corps staff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, there was Dave and Virginia Kaler.

[Assistant] Peace Corps staff.

[User] Oh, Peace Corps staff? Oh, okay. Now I'm mixing them up with Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] There were the Pooles. And, and, um, Nelson. Gordon Nelson. Bob Poole and Gordon Nelson were the ones that I remember.

[Assistant] And what was your interaction and impressions and how did that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Peace Corps staff? Oh, okay. Now I'm mixing them up with Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] There were the Pooles. And, and, um, Nelson. Gordon Nelson. Bob Poole and Gordon Nelson were the ones that I remember.

[Assistant] And what was your interaction and impressions and how did that?

[User] We had a very friendly relationship with them. They were wonderful people. We never felt as though they were pushing their weight around. So it was only a friendly, collegial relationship.

[Assistant] What did you tend to do in your leisure time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was exciting, you know, with the fireworks and the pomp and ceremony. And we, you know, to us, this. Here we were in a country actually receiving its independence. The excitement of it.

[Assistant] [coughs] Excuse me.

[User] And, and we really felt so happy for, for the Malawians that they were actually getting their independence. They had self-government beforehand in 1961. But, um, it, everything, everything at that point looked very positive. We didn't see any. In addition, what reminds me about positive is that although they were poor, we didn't see poverty, extreme poverty. We didn't see people starving, uh, except for some people who came around begging, who had some diseases that were debilitating, um, where they lost parts of their hands and feet. I'm trying to remember the name of that disease.

[Assistant] Leprosy.

[User] Leprosy. Other than that, people were healthy. You know, we didn't see kwashiorkor or any of those.

[Assistant] You were in the city, were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, and we really felt so happy for, for the Malawians that they were actually getting their independence. They had self-government beforehand in 1961. But, um, it, everything, everything at that point looked very positive. We didn't see any. In addition, what reminds me about positive is that although they were poor, we didn't see poverty, extreme poverty. We didn't see people starving, uh, except for some people who came around begging, who had some diseases that were debilitating, um, where they lost parts of their hands and feet. I'm trying to remember the name of that disease.

[Assistant] Leprosy.

[User] Leprosy. Other than that, people were healthy. You know, we didn't see kwashiorkor or any of those.

[Assistant] You were in the city, were you?

[User] We were in the largest city with about 70 to 75,000 people. But even our travels up to the villages, people were, you know, looked healthy. Relatively disease free. We didn't suffer from anything, you know.

[Assistant] You were never ill?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in the largest city with about 70 to 75,000 people. But even our travels up to the villages, people were, you know, looked healthy. Relatively disease free. We didn't suffer from anything, you know.

[Assistant] You were never ill?

[User] Didn't get malaria. We were never ill, other than perhaps a cold. And I don't remember even getting a cold. But that doesn't mean I didn't. Nothing serious. No bouts of malaria. We were careful about, um, swimming in Lake Niassa.

[Assistant] Why?

[User] We heard of bilharzia, at least the southern region. Northern region it was okay. Bilharzia, the schistosomiasis was a problem. The snails, the parasitic worms that live part of their life in snails and part in human beings.

[Assistant] Okay. You're at the end of your first year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn't get malaria. We were never ill, other than perhaps a cold. And I don't remember even getting a cold. But that doesn't mean I didn't. Nothing serious. No bouts of malaria. We were careful about, um, swimming in Lake Niassa.

[Assistant] Why?

[User] We heard of bilharzia, at least the southern region. Northern region it was okay. Bilharzia, the schistosomiasis was a problem. The snails, the parasitic worms that live part of their life in snails and part in human beings.

[Assistant] Okay. You're at the end of your first year.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Were there any notable events, reflections on the year, woes, joys, unexpected events, relationships? You said no health problems. You had vacations. Maybe you traveled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We heard of bilharzia, at least the southern region. Northern region it was okay. Bilharzia, the schistosomiasis was a problem. The snails, the parasitic worms that live part of their life in snails and part in human beings.

[Assistant] Okay. You're at the end of your first year.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Were there any notable events, reflections on the year, woes, joys, unexpected events, relationships? You said no health problems. You had vacations. Maybe you traveled?

[User]
We had vacations. We traveled. I think that first year we had 30 days off a year. We traveled to Beira on the Portuguese coast and that was an interesting experience. We were on a train that was, I think, built in the 1930s and there was only one track. So I remember that, uh, there's a side track. The train would pull over to a side track if a train was coming in the other direction. Every time the train stopped, people came around and were selling vegetables and fruits. I remember we went to a reception with the mayor of Beira and that was interesting because, um, I was able to communicate with his wife in Spanish. I didn't know Portuguese and she didn't know English, but we both knew a little bit of Spanish, so we were able to communicate.

We stayed in a rondavel. We went with one of these, one of the guys, one of the two of two of them I remember. I don't remember whether they traveled with us on the train or met us by car.

[Assistant] One of the guys?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the British expatriates that we met.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User]
Um, we stayed in a house right on the beach, a rondavel, a small one room round tent-like metal structure. I remember that. That was, that was very interesting. Sand constantly. You couldn't get the sand out of you. Um. So that, that was one interest. That's, that's part of it. The vacations that we had were great.

One time we went down to South Africa and we were in Johannesburg and a number of other cities. The political situation there was pretty bad. We had some conversations with South African whites and, you know, the prejudice against Africans was, was pretty strong and Africans and whites were not allowed to socialize together. It was against the law to visit each other in their homes, to drink together. Although the country is beautiful, nevertheless that's what stayed in my mind. The attitudes about Africans, Black Africans by the whites. What was? There was another part of the question that I wanted to answer.

[Assistant] Any special events in your first year?

[User] Events in our first year. Well, of course, the vacations. Oh, one of the things. We had to work also, we had to develop projects during that time. And I remember that Steve was involved. I can't remember what projects I was involved in, but I remember Steve was involved in a road project and then he was also involved with a, with a well-digging project. So, um, that I remember. I don't remember. Wait a minute. I think I went up to Livingstonia and was teaching up there for a while during that period of time. It's amazing how much you forget after over 40 years.

[Assistant] Where were you all when Kennedy was assassinated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Um, we stayed in a house right on the beach, a rondavel, a small one room round tent-like metal structure. I remember that. That was, that was very interesting. Sand constantly. You couldn't get the sand out of you. Um. So that, that was one interest. That's, that's part of it. The vacations that we had were great.

One time we went down to South Africa and we were in Johannesburg and a number of other cities. The political situation there was pretty bad. We had some conversations with South African whites and, you know, the prejudice against Africans was, was pretty strong and Africans and whites were not allowed to socialize together. It was against the law to visit each other in their homes, to drink together. Although the country is beautiful, nevertheless that's what stayed in my mind. The attitudes about Africans, Black Africans by the whites. What was? There was another part of the question that I wanted to answer.

[Assistant] Any special events in your first year?

[User] Events in our first year. Well, of course, the vacations. Oh, one of the things. We had to work also, we had to develop projects during that time. And I remember that Steve was involved. I can't remember what projects I was involved in, but I remember Steve was involved in a road project and then he was also involved with a, with a well-digging project. So, um, that I remember. I don't remember. Wait a minute. I think I went up to Livingstonia and was teaching up there for a while during that period of time. It's amazing how much you forget after over 40 years.

[Assistant] Where were you all when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] I don't remember exactly where. I believe it was our house, because I was making pizza for a group of, of volunteers.

[Assistant] Can I tell you where Steve was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Events in our first year. Well, of course, the vacations. Oh, one of the things. We had to work also, we had to develop projects during that time. And I remember that Steve was involved. I can't remember what projects I was involved in, but I remember Steve was involved in a road project and then he was also involved with a, with a well-digging project. So, um, that I remember. I don't remember. Wait a minute. I think I went up to Livingstonia and was teaching up there for a while during that period of time. It's amazing how much you forget after over 40 years.

[Assistant] Where were you all when Kennedy was assassinated?

[User] I don't remember exactly where. I believe it was our house, because I was making pizza for a group of, of volunteers.

[Assistant] Can I tell you where Steve was?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] I don't know if you were with him. You were at the hostel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember exactly where. I believe it was our house, because I was making pizza for a group of, of volunteers.

[Assistant] Can I tell you where Steve was?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] I don't know if you were with him. You were at the hostel.

[User] Okay, we were at.

[Assistant] A whole bunch of us at the hostel. Maybe you were making pizza there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] I don't know if you were with him. You were at the hostel.

[User] Okay, we were at.

[Assistant] A whole bunch of us at the hostel. Maybe you were making pizza there.

[User] I was making pizzas. I didn't think it was our, I didn't know where we were though. If I said if I were making pizza, maybe it was our house but.

[Assistant] It was the hostel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, we were at.

[Assistant] A whole bunch of us at the hostel. Maybe you were making pizza there.

[User] I was making pizzas. I didn't think it was our, I didn't know where we were though. If I said if I were making pizza, maybe it was our house but.

[Assistant] It was the hostel.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And the Africans were there playing music. And I was playing bridge with Gary Amo and some other people or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was making pizzas. I didn't think it was our, I didn't know where we were though. If I said if I were making pizza, maybe it was our house but.

[Assistant] It was the hostel.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And the Africans were there playing music. And I was playing bridge with Gary Amo and some other people or something.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] But go on for your experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And the Africans were there playing music. And I was playing bridge with Gary Amo and some other people or something.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] But go on for your experience.

[User] Well, for my personal experience, I came out with this pizza and I was standing there and everybody was standing around holding hands and praying. And that's when I discovered what had happened.

[Assistant] Did you drop the pizza?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] But go on for your experience.

[User] Well, for my personal experience, I came out with this pizza and I was standing there and everybody was standing around holding hands and praying. And that's when I discovered what had happened.

[Assistant] Did you drop the pizza?

[User] I didn't drop the pizza. I would have remembered that I think. But it was a shock. I mean, we walked around dazed for days, dazed for days, and we met. And a lot of our friends in Malawi were very, very sad. Very, very sad. They were very, they loved Kennedy. So that was a significant event for us. And that was in November '63, and it was just before the end of our first year. Um. The other thing you said, significant events in our second year. The political climate began to change. We heard rumors about the fact that H. Kamuzu Banda was not, that some of his, um, some of the fellow, uh. What do you call them?

[Assistant] Ministers or political? Ministers then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for my personal experience, I came out with this pizza and I was standing there and everybody was standing around holding hands and praying. And that's when I discovered what had happened.

[Assistant] Did you drop the pizza?

[User] I didn't drop the pizza. I would have remembered that I think. But it was a shock. I mean, we walked around dazed for days, dazed for days, and we met. And a lot of our friends in Malawi were very, very sad. Very, very sad. They were very, they loved Kennedy. So that was a significant event for us. And that was in November '63, and it was just before the end of our first year. Um. The other thing you said, significant events in our second year. The political climate began to change. We heard rumors about the fact that H. Kamuzu Banda was not, that some of his, um, some of the fellow, uh. What do you call them?

[Assistant] Ministers or political? Ministers then?

[User] Yeah, ministers were, were pressuring him to Africanize more quickly and he was very stubborn about that. He was very conservative. I think that Malawi was probably the only African country, Black African country that actually had business relations with South Africa and.

[Assistant] Why was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't drop the pizza. I would have remembered that I think. But it was a shock. I mean, we walked around dazed for days, dazed for days, and we met. And a lot of our friends in Malawi were very, very sad. Very, very sad. They were very, they loved Kennedy. So that was a significant event for us. And that was in November '63, and it was just before the end of our first year. Um. The other thing you said, significant events in our second year. The political climate began to change. We heard rumors about the fact that H. Kamuzu Banda was not, that some of his, um, some of the fellow, uh. What do you call them?

[Assistant] Ministers or political? Ministers then?

[User] Yeah, ministers were, were pressuring him to Africanize more quickly and he was very stubborn about that. He was very conservative. I think that Malawi was probably the only African country, Black African country that actually had business relations with South Africa and.

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] Portuguese East Africa. He may have been thinking about the welfare of Malawi, feeling that economically it would be a benefit to have these relations with South Africa. But politically, um.

[Assistant] Did the Malawians need something from South Africa? Did they interact with South Africa in some way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, ministers were, were pressuring him to Africanize more quickly and he was very stubborn about that. He was very conservative. I think that Malawi was probably the only African country, Black African country that actually had business relations with South Africa and.

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] Portuguese East Africa. He may have been thinking about the welfare of Malawi, feeling that economically it would be a benefit to have these relations with South Africa. But politically, um.

[Assistant] Did the Malawians need something from South Africa? Did they interact with South Africa in some way?

[User]
Well, I don't remember the. [tape break] As I was saying, his, many of his ministers felt that he wasn't Africanizing fast enough. For instance, they wanted the schools to be integrated and he refused to do that. That is, the white students and the African students to go to school together. He was afraid to do that because he didn't want to lose the white educated population. At least that's what I heard. And he felt that there would be a mass exodus from Malawi if he did that initially.

So he responded very negatively to this pressure and he expelled a number of them and a number of them ran away. So there was, there was a real crisis there. I remember that. And that was going on for several months before we left. And just as an aside, he, he. Most educated people sided with the, with the, uh, the ministers so that his attitude towards educated people, Malawians, became very negative. And he surrounded himself with local people who were not well educated.

[Assistant] Okay. Now how did, how did all of that affect, if it did, your teaching and the students and what maybe they were discussing? Or how did all the political changes impact you as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Portuguese East Africa. He may have been thinking about the welfare of Malawi, feeling that economically it would be a benefit to have these relations with South Africa. But politically, um.

[Assistant] Did the Malawians need something from South Africa? Did they interact with South Africa in some way?

[User]
Well, I don't remember the. [tape break] As I was saying, his, many of his ministers felt that he wasn't Africanizing fast enough. For instance, they wanted the schools to be integrated and he refused to do that. That is, the white students and the African students to go to school together. He was afraid to do that because he didn't want to lose the white educated population. At least that's what I heard. And he felt that there would be a mass exodus from Malawi if he did that initially.

So he responded very negatively to this pressure and he expelled a number of them and a number of them ran away. So there was, there was a real crisis there. I remember that. And that was going on for several months before we left. And just as an aside, he, he. Most educated people sided with the, with the, uh, the ministers so that his attitude towards educated people, Malawians, became very negative. And he surrounded himself with local people who were not well educated.

[Assistant] Okay. Now how did, how did all of that affect, if it did, your teaching and the students and what maybe they were discussing? Or how did all the political changes impact you as a volunteer?

[User] I don't remember it impacting my teaching. After all, I taught science. I didn't teach anything that would lead us to get into any political conversations. Any political conversations that we had were outside of the classroom with some of our students. And Steve was more likely to carry on conversations with them. I do believe that we were told not to voice our opinions about our attitudes about this. To be honest, I think that we were honest with our students if, if the conversation came up.

[Assistant] Anything in their second year that stands out or that you want to add before we talk about reentry or coming home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember that. If there was one, I don't remember it at all.

[Assistant] Um, looking now at your service and at the three goals of Peace Corps, the one was to provide technical assistance where requested, that's the service that we gave. Then to promote the better understanding of Americans by the people that were served. And to help promote better understanding of other peoples of America. Have you played a role in those or how have you seen those fit into your life now since you've returned? If they have?

[User] If at all?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Well, I think it, it broadened, it definitely broadened our perspective on, on the way other people live. The fact that there are people out there who live differently, who have different attitudes. It made us more objective about that, as opposed to our friends who remained in the United States and weren't involved in any way with, with living for any extent of time overseas. Uh, I think that, and my husband and I have said this often, the culture shock was, shock was coming back. It wasn't getting adjusted to living in Malawi. Our friends back in the United States were already settled, were interested in their cars and their homes and their children and really didn't show any great enthusiasm or interest in what we had done.

[Assistant] I can relate. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement in the country of service? Any contact with the people from the country? Any continuing Peace Corps involvement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If at all?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Well, I think it, it broadened, it definitely broadened our perspective on, on the way other people live. The fact that there are people out there who live differently, who have different attitudes. It made us more objective about that, as opposed to our friends who remained in the United States and weren't involved in any way with, with living for any extent of time overseas. Uh, I think that, and my husband and I have said this often, the culture shock was, shock was coming back. It wasn't getting adjusted to living in Malawi. Our friends back in the United States were already settled, were interested in their cars and their homes and their children and really didn't show any great enthusiasm or interest in what we had done.

[Assistant] I can relate. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement in the country of service? Any contact with the people from the country? Any continuing Peace Corps involvement?

[User] Only sporadic.

[Assistant] Just kind of describe to present.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only sporadic.

[Assistant] Just kind of describe to present.

[User]
Well, very, very sporadic contact with some of our ex Peace Corps volunteers, the people who we went over with, such as you, Linda, the interviewer. Um. But we, we have kept also, and not continuous contact with some of the young men that we met in Malawi, and one of whom I know is still living in, is now settled in the United States. For the first couple of years, we, some of them came over and were here in the United States for visits. I think I mentioned that we became friendly with a Goan family, and their son came to visit. And so he stayed with us for a while and we showed him around. And I also another Malawian stayed with us for a little while.

But this was, you know, within five years of coming back. After that, we had no contact really, none at all. Maybe some very occasional contact. And we just went on with our lives. You know, every once in a while I would, in my work, I would meet people who were Peace Corps volunteers, and there would be some, you know, a feeling of companionship because they had done something similar even though they may not have been in Malawi, they may have been in another country. We had something in common to talk about.

We have thought about going back to Malawi. I think we would like to do it someday, uh, but right now we have no definite plans. We, when we first came back, we were also involved with recruitment and we went to a, we gave a number of presentations and talked about the importance of becoming a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] That's it. I thank you very much.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] You have any other thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm going to stick by it.

[Assistant] So where did you grow up?

[User] Grew up in New York City.

[Assistant] New York City. And where did you go to college?

[User] Amherst College in Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Amherst. Where did she go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grew up in New York City.

[Assistant] New York City. And where did you go to college?

[User] Amherst College in Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Amherst. Where did she go to college?

[User] Wisconsin. And then she transferred to the New School in New York.

[Assistant] So I should probably interview her as well as a Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Amherst College in Massachusetts.

[Assistant] Amherst. Where did she go to college?

[User] Wisconsin. And then she transferred to the New School in New York.

[Assistant] So I should probably interview her as well as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] If you're smart, you would have interviewed her instead of me.

[Assistant] OK, so this all came from Operation Crossroads Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wisconsin. And then she transferred to the New School in New York.

[Assistant] So I should probably interview her as well as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] If you're smart, you would have interviewed her instead of me.

[Assistant] OK, so this all came from Operation Crossroads Africa.

[User] I think so. You know, it's a combination of Kennedy's passion and Reverend Robinson.

[Assistant] Alright, so you got married. You both went to law school and then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you're smart, you would have interviewed her instead of me.

[Assistant] OK, so this all came from Operation Crossroads Africa.

[User] I think so. You know, it's a combination of Kennedy's passion and Reverend Robinson.

[Assistant] Alright, so you got married. You both went to law school and then?

[User] No, she went to social work school.

[Assistant] OK, but you went to law school. So did you go into the Peace Corps after law school then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. You know, it's a combination of Kennedy's passion and Reverend Robinson.

[Assistant] Alright, so you got married. You both went to law school and then?

[User] No, she went to social work school.

[Assistant] OK, but you went to law school. So did you go into the Peace Corps after law school then?

[User] Missed my graduation and went to training. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was the legal program into which you went in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, she went to social work school.

[Assistant] OK, but you went to law school. So did you go into the Peace Corps after law school then?

[User] Missed my graduation and went to training. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was the legal program into which you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] The idea that, the idea of it was wonderful and the actuality, of course, is often something else. The idea of it was the Ford Foundation was funding a law school in Ethiopia and a project to codify the laws, thousands of years of traditional law, the common law of Ethiopia. They were putting them into codes, commercial code, criminal code, civil code. While, theoretically, while the Ethiopian traditional lawyers were going to law school, Peace Corps volunteer lawyers would help out and take their jobs while they were in law school temporarily and then have them come back. I don't believe I ever met a lawyer who was at the law school, and I never heard that the job that I was doing at any of the various ministries in which I worked was vacated by someone who was attending law school.

[Assistant] And what language were the laws written in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Missed my graduation and went to training. Yeah.

[Assistant] And what was the legal program into which you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] The idea that, the idea of it was wonderful and the actuality, of course, is often something else. The idea of it was the Ford Foundation was funding a law school in Ethiopia and a project to codify the laws, thousands of years of traditional law, the common law of Ethiopia. They were putting them into codes, commercial code, criminal code, civil code. While, theoretically, while the Ethiopian traditional lawyers were going to law school, Peace Corps volunteer lawyers would help out and take their jobs while they were in law school temporarily and then have them come back. I don't believe I ever met a lawyer who was at the law school, and I never heard that the job that I was doing at any of the various ministries in which I worked was vacated by someone who was attending law school.

[Assistant] And what language were the laws written in?

[User] The new laws were written in Amharic and English. It was a trend of simultaneous and not a simultaneous translation, but a dual codification process.

[Assistant] So this is really interesting that you were codifying their traditional law.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The idea that, the idea of it was wonderful and the actuality, of course, is often something else. The idea of it was the Ford Foundation was funding a law school in Ethiopia and a project to codify the laws, thousands of years of traditional law, the common law of Ethiopia. They were putting them into codes, commercial code, criminal code, civil code. While, theoretically, while the Ethiopian traditional lawyers were going to law school, Peace Corps volunteer lawyers would help out and take their jobs while they were in law school temporarily and then have them come back. I don't believe I ever met a lawyer who was at the law school, and I never heard that the job that I was doing at any of the various ministries in which I worked was vacated by someone who was attending law school.

[Assistant] And what language were the laws written in?

[User] The new laws were written in Amharic and English. It was a trend of simultaneous and not a simultaneous translation, but a dual codification process.

[Assistant] So this is really interesting that you were codifying their traditional law.

[User] Oh, I wasn't doing the codifying. I was sort of like, my first assignment was at the Ministry of Interior to review a contract coming from Reston, and this was particularly interesting, reviewing a contract by an Italian firm to do planning for 20 new towns in Ethiopia. So I figured, well, this is karma. You know, I know about new towns, I'm working on a project. Forget about it. It had nothing to do with the towns, it had to do with the contract and the Italians' firm getting money to do the work. But it was at the Ministry of Interior. It was an ad hoc job and after I was done with that, took a couple of months, I went to another ministry and worked work there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Oh, interesting. So what was the training like? Where were you trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The new laws were written in Amharic and English. It was a trend of simultaneous and not a simultaneous translation, but a dual codification process.

[Assistant] So this is really interesting that you were codifying their traditional law.

[User] Oh, I wasn't doing the codifying. I was sort of like, my first assignment was at the Ministry of Interior to review a contract coming from Reston, and this was particularly interesting, reviewing a contract by an Italian firm to do planning for 20 new towns in Ethiopia. So I figured, well, this is karma. You know, I know about new towns, I'm working on a project. Forget about it. It had nothing to do with the towns, it had to do with the contract and the Italians' firm getting money to do the work. But it was at the Ministry of Interior. It was an ad hoc job and after I was done with that, took a couple of months, I went to another ministry and worked work there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Oh, interesting. So what was the training like? Where were you trained?

[User] At UCLA. We were in a program for teachers, mostly teachers. Half the group was at UCLA and half was at Utah, and that was done for language purposes. They were experimenting with learning the language grammatically and the written language, which we did, versus learning the spoken language and the conversational language, which they did at Utah. And of course, all of us at UCLA envied the people who were learning to actually speak it. We could read signs and read the news. We could read the letters. We just didn't know what they meant. So three months later, they were in much better shape than we were. Twenty years down the road, we would have been much better prepared to be scholars in Amharic, which not many of us are.

[Assistant] And did you have legal training for the Peace Corps too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I wasn't doing the codifying. I was sort of like, my first assignment was at the Ministry of Interior to review a contract coming from Reston, and this was particularly interesting, reviewing a contract by an Italian firm to do planning for 20 new towns in Ethiopia. So I figured, well, this is karma. You know, I know about new towns, I'm working on a project. Forget about it. It had nothing to do with the towns, it had to do with the contract and the Italians' firm getting money to do the work. But it was at the Ministry of Interior. It was an ad hoc job and after I was done with that, took a couple of months, I went to another ministry and worked work there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Oh, interesting. So what was the training like? Where were you trained?

[User] At UCLA. We were in a program for teachers, mostly teachers. Half the group was at UCLA and half was at Utah, and that was done for language purposes. They were experimenting with learning the language grammatically and the written language, which we did, versus learning the spoken language and the conversational language, which they did at Utah. And of course, all of us at UCLA envied the people who were learning to actually speak it. We could read signs and read the news. We could read the letters. We just didn't know what they meant. So three months later, they were in much better shape than we were. Twenty years down the road, we would have been much better prepared to be scholars in Amharic, which not many of us are.

[Assistant] And did you have legal training for the Peace Corps too?

[User] We did. The, um, I forget his title. I think he was the former attorney general. Bereket Habte Selassie.

[Assistant] Who was a very good friend of my husband's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At UCLA. We were in a program for teachers, mostly teachers. Half the group was at UCLA and half was at Utah, and that was done for language purposes. They were experimenting with learning the language grammatically and the written language, which we did, versus learning the spoken language and the conversational language, which they did at Utah. And of course, all of us at UCLA envied the people who were learning to actually speak it. We could read signs and read the news. We could read the letters. We just didn't know what they meant. So three months later, they were in much better shape than we were. Twenty years down the road, we would have been much better prepared to be scholars in Amharic, which not many of us are.

[Assistant] And did you have legal training for the Peace Corps too?

[User] We did. The, um, I forget his title. I think he was the former attorney general. Bereket Habte Selassie.

[Assistant] Who was a very good friend of my husband's.

[User] Oh, come on. Oh, he was just great. And he was at the Peace Corps training. He was our mentor. Brought us, I remember, up to, um, might have been Santa Barbara, where a wonderful institute is. Anyway, it's not important, but I knew the institute, I read a lot of their publications and we met with their scholars. But there were three of us in the program. The other two ended up dropping out. One before, no, I think we all got, we all went to Ethiopia, and they both terminated early. So I was the survivor. But yeah, Bereket was our mentor, spoke to us about the laws, and I don't remember anything specific other than being in his presence was just marvelous.

[Assistant] He was a wonderful person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. The, um, I forget his title. I think he was the former attorney general. Bereket Habte Selassie.

[Assistant] Who was a very good friend of my husband's.

[User] Oh, come on. Oh, he was just great. And he was at the Peace Corps training. He was our mentor. Brought us, I remember, up to, um, might have been Santa Barbara, where a wonderful institute is. Anyway, it's not important, but I knew the institute, I read a lot of their publications and we met with their scholars. But there were three of us in the program. The other two ended up dropping out. One before, no, I think we all got, we all went to Ethiopia, and they both terminated early. So I was the survivor. But yeah, Bereket was our mentor, spoke to us about the laws, and I don't remember anything specific other than being in his presence was just marvelous.

[Assistant] He was a wonderful person.

[User] Yeah. Great guy.

[Assistant] Offline we'll talk more about Bereket. And did you. So you were at UCLA, and then you flew. How long was that training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Great guy.

[Assistant] Offline we'll talk more about Bereket. And did you. So you were at UCLA, and then you flew. How long was that training?

[User] That was three months.

[Assistant] Three months.

[User] June, July, August. Came back to New York and had a week in New York or so, I'm not sure.

[Assistant] And then flew off to Addis directly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was three months.

[Assistant] Three months.

[User] June, July, August. Came back to New York and had a week in New York or so, I'm not sure.

[Assistant] And then flew off to Addis directly?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. Was there any training in country after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] June, July, August. Came back to New York and had a week in New York or so, I'm not sure.

[Assistant] And then flew off to Addis directly?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. Was there any training in country after that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And were you stationed in Addis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK. Was there any training in country after that?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And were you stationed in Addis?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because you were in the legal program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And were you stationed in Addis?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because you were in the legal program?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And your wife then got a job there as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because you were in the legal program?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And your wife then got a job there as well?

[User] Yeah, she was the sole social worker. So it was kind of an individual placement idea, but they had very good jobs lined up. I think they had them lined up for her. I don't think she had to look for them. She was at an orphanage, a mental hospital, and a juvenile home.

[Assistant] So what, how was your living situation in Addis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. The lawyers in our program, we saw a bit. But then when the next group of lawyers came, we were friendlier with them. We knew one of them from home. My wife's good friend married a lawyer at Harvard, and she and he came over. She ended up teaching social studies and he was part of this, I think there were six or seven in the next group of lawyers. So we were pretty friendly with them and I was mentoring them a bit too. And other volunteers from our training group would come into Addis and they'd always stay with us.

[Assistant] And then did you meet Ethiopians? Were you? Did you become friends with them? Did you work with them?

[User] Yeah. All of the above. Our neighbors. We went to the wedding of people who are our age. I guess we met them, the woman lived a couple of doors down from us on our dirt road and I think we just met her from the neighborhood. We ended up having kids at the same time. We had our first child, a son, born over there. And she had a child born also, a boy, and her brother-in-law and etcetera, we were friendly with. And then the people I worked with, I mean, we were, we had friends, but these were kind of the neighbor, the kind of coffee klatch people you would have as neighbors now. And even, let's see, 1992, when our son who was born there was going to go in the Peace Corps, we had a trip to Ethiopia. They were still living in the same house and we just dropped in on them. We didn't have any contact information, but they were still there and it was just like, you know, camp friends, school friends, renewing contacts. We just started chattering away and it was just delightful.

[Assistant] So did you communicate with them in Amharic?

[User] English.

[Assistant] In English. So they all spoke English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. All of the above. Our neighbors. We went to the wedding of people who are our age. I guess we met them, the woman lived a couple of doors down from us on our dirt road and I think we just met her from the neighborhood. We ended up having kids at the same time. We had our first child, a son, born over there. And she had a child born also, a boy, and her brother-in-law and etcetera, we were friendly with. And then the people I worked with, I mean, we were, we had friends, but these were kind of the neighbor, the kind of coffee klatch people you would have as neighbors now. And even, let's see, 1992, when our son who was born there was going to go in the Peace Corps, we had a trip to Ethiopia. They were still living in the same house and we just dropped in on them. We didn't have any contact information, but they were still there and it was just like, you know, camp friends, school friends, renewing contacts. We just started chattering away and it was just delightful.

[Assistant] So did you communicate with them in Amharic?

[User] English.

[Assistant] In English. So they all spoke English?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Our Amharic never got good enough, and the people we were working with all spoke English, the professionals that and the legal professionals and the. But we would, you know, chit chat in Amharic. They'd tolerate us for a while and then they switched to English to make it easier for all of us.

[Assistant] And let me ask some more about the job itself. So you were working on contracts for these new towns. What other kinds of work were you doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] English.

[Assistant] In English. So they all spoke English?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Our Amharic never got good enough, and the people we were working with all spoke English, the professionals that and the legal professionals and the. But we would, you know, chit chat in Amharic. They'd tolerate us for a while and then they switched to English to make it easier for all of us.

[Assistant] And let me ask some more about the job itself. So you were working on contracts for these new towns. What other kinds of work were you doing?

[User]
Well, in the morning, as I recall, in the morning, I would go to my job and in the afternoon I'd come back to the Institute of Public Administration, where we would be based. Oh, and there were lawyers there before me, so we would all get together and we would proofread the laws that were being proclaimed. Because the new laws when. I might have this a little bit off, I think it was the new laws were being, like in the Federal Register. They were being advertised and they were being, not promulgated, but just being proposed, and then if there were people who objected. I mean, nobody objected to Haile Selassie, but, you know, they ran through the process.

But we would proofread it to make sure that it was being translated into English the right way. So we spent a lot of time proofreading, which is deadly. But the fun work was in the mornings at the ministries. Yeah, but the. So the typical day was I would leave the house, get the bus down to the Ministry of Interior, come home for lunch. After lunch, go to the Institute of Public Administration, which was a ten minute walk or so, and work there in the afternoon.

[Assistant] So this is a very unusual kind of Peace Corps assignment, isn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Our Amharic never got good enough, and the people we were working with all spoke English, the professionals that and the legal professionals and the. But we would, you know, chit chat in Amharic. They'd tolerate us for a while and then they switched to English to make it easier for all of us.

[Assistant] And let me ask some more about the job itself. So you were working on contracts for these new towns. What other kinds of work were you doing?

[User]
Well, in the morning, as I recall, in the morning, I would go to my job and in the afternoon I'd come back to the Institute of Public Administration, where we would be based. Oh, and there were lawyers there before me, so we would all get together and we would proofread the laws that were being proclaimed. Because the new laws when. I might have this a little bit off, I think it was the new laws were being, like in the Federal Register. They were being advertised and they were being, not promulgated, but just being proposed, and then if there were people who objected. I mean, nobody objected to Haile Selassie, but, you know, they ran through the process.

But we would proofread it to make sure that it was being translated into English the right way. So we spent a lot of time proofreading, which is deadly. But the fun work was in the mornings at the ministries. Yeah, but the. So the typical day was I would leave the house, get the bus down to the Ministry of Interior, come home for lunch. After lunch, go to the Institute of Public Administration, which was a ten minute walk or so, and work there in the afternoon.

[Assistant] So this is a very unusual kind of Peace Corps assignment, isn't it?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think it was a good thing for Peace Corps, to have lawyers in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had both. I mean, we all, we started off with a male and he left for a better job and then we got a female.

[Assistant] I guess my question was directed more at the politics of it, since you were in the legal field.

[User] Oh sorry.

[Assistant] No, no. Both are good. But coming from the United States and the thought of rule of law in the United States, did it differ under an emperor?

[User] Yes, you knew where all power came from and occasionally it looked like there were great changes because the cabinet would change and they would just shuffle around and change positions. We figured it was probably because he felt somebody might be getting too entrenched and might challenge him. I don't think, aside from whispered comments about Haile Selassie, you know, you wouldn't criticize him openly. I don't think anybody, I don't remember feeling a police power or a police state. There wasn't, there weren't people around all over. But I think there was a suspicion, a fear of intelligence people being around and people who might report. I don't think we felt it because we weren't doing anything sensitive, and we were young and naive. You know, we didn't think in those terms, that anybody would care about what we said. But in fact, they could very well have.

[Assistant] You might have been watched.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh sorry.

[Assistant] No, no. Both are good. But coming from the United States and the thought of rule of law in the United States, did it differ under an emperor?

[User] Yes, you knew where all power came from and occasionally it looked like there were great changes because the cabinet would change and they would just shuffle around and change positions. We figured it was probably because he felt somebody might be getting too entrenched and might challenge him. I don't think, aside from whispered comments about Haile Selassie, you know, you wouldn't criticize him openly. I don't think anybody, I don't remember feeling a police power or a police state. There wasn't, there weren't people around all over. But I think there was a suspicion, a fear of intelligence people being around and people who might report. I don't think we felt it because we weren't doing anything sensitive, and we were young and naive. You know, we didn't think in those terms, that anybody would care about what we said. But in fact, they could very well have.

[Assistant] You might have been watched.

[User] We might have been watched. Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't apparent. And my wife in her work met the emperor's granddaughters and had some work to do with them. And that was, they were educated in England and were very open and educated and liberal thinking, at least in terms of social policies. I guess we didn't get into politics much because there wasn't any opposition party. There was nothing to talk about. I remember one TV commentator, Musay somebody, was rather on the edge. He had been educated abroad, had very good English, might have been gay, was just a little bit on the edge of society and was more politically open. I don't remember anybody else being that way.

[Assistant] Did you travel throughout Ethiopia to neighboring countries during vacations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you knew where all power came from and occasionally it looked like there were great changes because the cabinet would change and they would just shuffle around and change positions. We figured it was probably because he felt somebody might be getting too entrenched and might challenge him. I don't think, aside from whispered comments about Haile Selassie, you know, you wouldn't criticize him openly. I don't think anybody, I don't remember feeling a police power or a police state. There wasn't, there weren't people around all over. But I think there was a suspicion, a fear of intelligence people being around and people who might report. I don't think we felt it because we weren't doing anything sensitive, and we were young and naive. You know, we didn't think in those terms, that anybody would care about what we said. But in fact, they could very well have.

[Assistant] You might have been watched.

[User] We might have been watched. Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't apparent. And my wife in her work met the emperor's granddaughters and had some work to do with them. And that was, they were educated in England and were very open and educated and liberal thinking, at least in terms of social policies. I guess we didn't get into politics much because there wasn't any opposition party. There was nothing to talk about. I remember one TV commentator, Musay somebody, was rather on the edge. He had been educated abroad, had very good English, might have been gay, was just a little bit on the edge of society and was more politically open. I don't remember anybody else being that way.

[Assistant] Did you travel throughout Ethiopia to neighboring countries during vacations?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Both.

[Assistant] Where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great deal. So unfortunately, it was discovered that I was absent without leave, and while I was good friends with the director, he said, well, look, I've got to do something. What do you suggest? I said, I had heard of one month of unsatisfactory conduct, thinking that was one month of the readjustment allowance, 75 bucks. I figured that was probably appropriate. And he seemed to think that was a little harsh, but he did it. I thought it was a pretty good trade. So anyway, I saw a lot of Africa then. And then on our holiday, the first summer we went down to, again unauthorized, we went to South Africa because we just wanted to see how bad the situation was there. Peace Corps wasn't allowed to go. And we went to Malawi and the Rhodesias, what was then Rhodesia.

[Assistant] Were you not allowed to? So Peace Corps was not allowed to go to Somalia, um, to South Africa?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Under apartheid.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I remember, I remember most vividly that entering the country, they took away my Playboy. They didn't give it back. But that was the biggest thing I found. Plus, drive, I mean, it was lots of horrible stuff and we visited a friend. We traveled with another Peace Corps couple from Ethiopia, and they had a friend from college who was working for Citibank down there. Gorgeous big house and nice, I mean, servants and everything. But the servants, I remember they had to leave the house before dark so they could get back to their township. And that there were signs along the road. Please don't go into the native areas, we don't want the privacy of our natives to be disturbed. Meaning don't cause any trouble by asking questions. So there, I mean, it was powerful to see this, and I was so sorry that Peace Corps didn't allow it. I'm sure it wasn't for any reason other than it didn't, they didn't want us to get into trouble in a country where we were.

[Assistant] Or support the regime.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Under apartheid.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I remember, I remember most vividly that entering the country, they took away my Playboy. They didn't give it back. But that was the biggest thing I found. Plus, drive, I mean, it was lots of horrible stuff and we visited a friend. We traveled with another Peace Corps couple from Ethiopia, and they had a friend from college who was working for Citibank down there. Gorgeous big house and nice, I mean, servants and everything. But the servants, I remember they had to leave the house before dark so they could get back to their township. And that there were signs along the road. Please don't go into the native areas, we don't want the privacy of our natives to be disturbed. Meaning don't cause any trouble by asking questions. So there, I mean, it was powerful to see this, and I was so sorry that Peace Corps didn't allow it. I'm sure it wasn't for any reason other than it didn't, they didn't want us to get into trouble in a country where we were.

[Assistant] Or support the regime.

[User] Well, maybe could be seen as.

[Assistant] Oh, that was before, it was before sanctions, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I remember, I remember most vividly that entering the country, they took away my Playboy. They didn't give it back. But that was the biggest thing I found. Plus, drive, I mean, it was lots of horrible stuff and we visited a friend. We traveled with another Peace Corps couple from Ethiopia, and they had a friend from college who was working for Citibank down there. Gorgeous big house and nice, I mean, servants and everything. But the servants, I remember they had to leave the house before dark so they could get back to their township. And that there were signs along the road. Please don't go into the native areas, we don't want the privacy of our natives to be disturbed. Meaning don't cause any trouble by asking questions. So there, I mean, it was powerful to see this, and I was so sorry that Peace Corps didn't allow it. I'm sure it wasn't for any reason other than it didn't, they didn't want us to get into trouble in a country where we were.

[Assistant] Or support the regime.

[User] Well, maybe could be seen as.

[Assistant] Oh, that was before, it was before sanctions, I'm sure.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] I think sanctions came quite a bit later than that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, maybe could be seen as.

[Assistant] Oh, that was before, it was before sanctions, I'm sure.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] I think sanctions came quite a bit later than that.

[User] Yeah. Anyway, the other countries were interesting, but this was pretty powerful.

[Assistant] So you did your job for two years? I did. And then what did you do? How did you decide, were you going straight home or what? I think you stayed an extra, no, you stayed two years and an extra month.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] I think sanctions came quite a bit later than that.

[User] Yeah. Anyway, the other countries were interesting, but this was pretty powerful.

[Assistant] So you did your job for two years? I did. And then what did you do? How did you decide, were you going straight home or what? I think you stayed an extra, no, you stayed two years and an extra month.

[User] Well, I stayed the extra month because I, my project was what was really big. That's what dominated my presence there. In the spring of '66, we'd been there about seven to eight months, one of the emperor's granddaughters came to Peace Corps. Had come back from England and said, you know, we really should have a summer camp in Ethiopia. We should have a camp for our kids. And it would be a great way for tribes to come together and to break down some of the barriers that the tribes have against each other and make them more collegial, if you will. So Peace Corps, one of the staff members, came to me knowing my father owned a summer camp in Maine. And I must have said how much I love it or whatever. And he came and said, you want to start a camp? And I said, sure, thinking, no big deal.

[Assistant] I know how to run a camp.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we lost that. We didn't have any sessions that really focused on it. It was much more, let's just get this off the ground and let somebody else worry about the tribal stuff. We didn't, and they didn't push us on it. So we just got the camp organized and then it continued.

[Assistant] Where was the camp?

[User] It was at a, the one lake that Peace Corps said is safe to swim in, Lake Langano, and we called it Camp Langano, L-A-N-G-A-N- O. It's about, I think it was 190, 200 kilometers from Addis south, and it was, it had a hotel down there that was a relatively nice hotel. Now it's much more developed, I understand. And it ran for seven years until the emperor was overthrown and the communist regime came in and stopped that kind of independent youth development and thinking.

[Assistant] So you continued to do law and camp for the rest of your life, you say?

[User] Rest of my life. My father died in '74 when we finished in Thailand, well we cut it a little bit short.

[Assistant] We'll go back to all of that, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rest of my life. My father died in '74 when we finished in Thailand, well we cut it a little bit short.

[Assistant] We'll go back to all of that, yeah.

[User] But yes, I've been doing that ever since. And then I started a camp in South Africa when I, about fifteen years ago, when I was phasing out of my camp in Maine. I figured through the success of Camp Langano, there haven't been camps in Africa. I figured in the 35 years since this would pick up, but it never did. So I figured, let's go back and do something else back there.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And make it a different kind of a focus, a life skills focus, more of a, what are the biggest problems that kids have? Well, in Ethiopia, the emperor's family thought it was tribal. There were many more problems, but let's deal with tribalism. We could have dealt with tribalism in South Africa, but we're dealing with AIDS, abusive behaviors, sexuality, gender bias, self-image, empowerment, all these things.

[Assistant] And that continues in South Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And make it a different kind of a focus, a life skills focus, more of a, what are the biggest problems that kids have? Well, in Ethiopia, the emperor's family thought it was tribal. There were many more problems, but let's deal with tribalism. We could have dealt with tribalism in South Africa, but we're dealing with AIDS, abusive behaviors, sexuality, gender bias, self-image, empowerment, all these things.

[Assistant] And that continues in South Africa?

[User] That's going on now. Yeah, I go over three times a year. We have three camps a year.

[Assistant] Fantastic.

[User] That's a whole other.

[Assistant] That's another whole thing. Yes, we should probably move on because you have so many Peace Corps related experiences. So you stayed to launch the camp and then what happened? How did you end up as general counsel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's going on now. Yeah, I go over three times a year. We have three camps a year.

[Assistant] Fantastic.

[User] That's a whole other.

[Assistant] That's another whole thing. Yes, we should probably move on because you have so many Peace Corps related experiences. So you stayed to launch the camp and then what happened? How did you end up as general counsel?

[User] Oh, I just applied. I came back and was looking for a job. I worked for a law firm. And actually, I interviewed at Peace Corps and they said, we don't take anybody right back from Peace Corps. You've got to have another job first. And it was lovely. I mean, I was really in sync with the people at the General Counsel's office, whom I didn't know. I just went and called for an interview, and it just was a great feeling. I said, this is a place I want to be. So I went to work for a corporate law firm. It was not a very great experience. I'm not wonderful at being in a, I don't know whether it's a corporate setting or a formal setting. I like having access to the top and having a free exchange of ideas.

[Assistant] You don't like hierarchy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was quite a very, well, one thing I liked about it was it was so varied. I dealt, my first issue was whether somebody from Swains Island near American Samoa can be a Peace Corps volunteer. Whether you are considered a U.S. citizen by virtue of being a Swains Island resident or citizen, I mean, I still don't remember. It was a fun project. I remember letting a lot of humor get in, and the other lawyers were saying. They were laughing, no, sorry, this has got to come out. This has got to come out. It was very function, well, part of it was regional. I would handle the problems from the region and I would also get all the problems from either administration, special service. I think it's called special services, the people who do the early terminations.

[Assistant] Did you deal with liability issues in Peace Corps? Were you responsible for outlawing motorcycles?

[User] I don't, well, all the regulations came through our office and yes, I did a lot of those. I don't remember about motorcycles. Probably not.

[Assistant] In all of the interviews I've done, it's pre-motorcycle and post-motorcycle regulations.

[User] Ah, interesting.

[Assistant] It's a very big issue in Peace Corps history. You were not involved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're very welcome. It's my pleasure. You never know. You never know where, you know, where you might have an impact. And this was not, you know, a volunteer or your typical thing. But this is where lobbying and who you know becomes important. So it was fascinating. I mean, the General Counsel's office was great. I was there before my time though, because what I wanted to do was go part time after my father's death. I wanted to get involved with our camp, but I couldn't work full time with the government and do that, and they didn't have any part time work or flex hours or anything like that.

[Assistant] So you then left General Counsel's office?

[User] Well, I left General Counsel's office to go overseas. When I came back, I wanted to do the part time, but I wanted to get. The General Counsel's office was meant to be two and a half years. It ended up being three, because I did want to get a full assignment overseas.

[Assistant] So then you went to the Philippines.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that experience as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I left General Counsel's office to go overseas. When I came back, I wanted to do the part time, but I wanted to get. The General Counsel's office was meant to be two and a half years. It ended up being three, because I did want to get a full assignment overseas.

[Assistant] So then you went to the Philippines.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk a little bit about that experience as well.

[User]
Well, that was a riot because it gave me such a great understanding about home office and field. As soon as I got there, they were bitching about Peace Corps regulations, and I said, you know, I wrote that regulation. What's the problem with that? And then they'd say, oh. So I would fight from their side against General Counsel. I'd say, you guys, this couldn't apply to us. This is a different situation. Said no, this is what it means. Anyway, it was really interesting. But I was, uh, Mindanao is the southernmost island of the Philippines. It's quite large and now it's been in the process of a Muslim revolution or Muslim led revolution. A lot of Muslims down there and the Christians of the, the Catholics of Luzon really imposed control over there. And there's been a lot of fighting. Even when I was there, there were gunshots as we were traveling and there were some scary situations.

But it was a marvelous independence where I had responsibility for all the programs in Mindanao. And I think we must have had a hundred volunteers and seven or eight programs. Fisheries, agriculture, teaching, community development, all of which I had to get to be something of a, expert is much too severe, but I had to acquire a working knowledge. And it was fun going around and seeing the volunteers and talking to learning, about fish farms and tilapia and fingerlings and fry and the banks of the fishpond. We just took my grand, two grandsons, my wife and I took two grandsons down to Ecuador and down to the Amazon River basin, and one of the communities had fish ponds, and I said, ah!

[Assistant] You knew all about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Yeah. And Peace Corps probably tells people that more now than they did with us. With us, your job was important and this is what you're going to do, and you know, we're relying on you to do it well. But everybody found that out. And you know, I'm sure, Peace Corps is resilient enough and we're there. You know, Peace Corps is us. So it's, you know, the former volunteers who get there who then say, yeah, your job may not work out, but then it's not. That's when you show how good you are, when something doesn't work out. How do you bounce back? And I think that's true in life. It's not how well you do the job that you're given. But when that job doesn't work, how well do you do the next? How well do you do the rest of life? That's what we need to learn.

[Assistant] Have you stayed in touch with people in Ethiopia, Philippines, Thailand, on an ongoing basis now?

[User] No, not many. Peace Corps volunteers. But yeah, a lot of unanswered emails from Ethiopia. And Thailand and the Philippines, we really didn't have the same kind of strong contact.

[Assistant] Because you were staff.

[User] Too busy with staff. Yeah. And the staff, my staff friends, Thais and Filipinos, didn't really extend those contacts for us.

[Assistant] So I asked about impact on your life. What about the countries in which you've worked? I know you worked directly in Ethiopia and you talked a little about that, but think about Thailand. There was, I don't know, thousands and thousands of volunteers who went to Thailand and Philippines. You think there's been an impact? I mean, those are three of the biggest programs probably in the world, I mean, in Peace Corps experience. There were so many volunteers. You think that Peace Corps had an impact on those countries? Does it matter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I've gotten very, what? Non. I'm not too harsh on myself about it. I'm clear in my own spirit and mind that I'm doing what I can do best. So, you know, I can't be a surgeon. I've got a hammer and everything looks like, and I've got a camping hammer and everything looks like a nail. We'll solve it by camps. We'll solve it by experiential education. We'll solve it by getting people together and discussing it. These are the tools that I have. And then if we can get people in with the subject matter expertise that we're looking for, HIV AIDS or whatever it might be, we'll bring those into the party. It's, uh, it might be a cop out a little bit, but we're still and we're still evaluating the programs as we go along. We've got a group at University of Pretoria that's doing a five-year study with us, and maybe they will find the silver bullet as to whether we're doing it well or not. Of course, I would like to know if what I'm devoting my life to is working.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That would be nice, but I am confident that I'm doing the best I can do and we might need to go off in slightly different directions. So it's, uh.

[Assistant] I mean, you want to continually adjust what you're doing.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] To move in that direction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would be nice, but I am confident that I'm doing the best I can do and we might need to go off in slightly different directions. So it's, uh.

[Assistant] I mean, you want to continually adjust what you're doing.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] To move in that direction.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then the third goal of Peace Corps is bringing the world back to the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] To move in that direction.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then the third goal of Peace Corps is bringing the world back to the United States.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Think about, do you have any thoughts about achievement of the third goal of Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So last summer, we had 18 of our counselors coming over to the U.S., going to camps. Many of them repeat at the same camps because the camps love them. Two of them for the first time were assigned full time in Reston to a local childcare center summer program where we've got a lot of input. We know those people very well and they're major stars, they're superstars. Because a lot of camps want internationals, but they never. I would, well never is awfully hard, especially for a lawyer. Rarely, rarely do the internationals have camp experience, so we provide great people with camp experience. They can just walk into a camp and they could take it over. I mean, they could run it, but they don't. I mean, they're just good counselors.

Somebody was looking. Oh, we had a friend. A local minister has a peace camp and she was having trouble. They just started it and they were having trouble getting counselors. They just run it for one week and administrators said, get some of our guys over. They can come at the end of the summer. They would love to do this and they will run that camp for you just the way you want it with it, with the love, the attention, with the discussion. And it's a marvelous pure exchange.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] And so we, you know, we have black South Africans over here who are accepted in the community. People fight for them to stay with them because housing at a day camp program is really tough. And we have people in Reston who said, I want them. Next year they stay with me.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And this is, you know, what more could you want? It's great.

[Assistant] Have you stayed involved with Peace Corps activities? There's a Northern Virginia Peace Corps association, I know that. Are you involved with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, I kind of miss that. It's when I applied to the Peace Corps in order to start in the fall of sixty six, I applied in the spring of 66. And at that point Vietnam was not, you know, what it was in the newspapers, but that that was about it. That was before all the escalation. But. You know, as time went by, of course, you know, I didn't really know what was going on, going on, except what I read in the papers. And to the extent papers got to where I was in Paraguay, probably not much of an extent, but I could tell as far as the war was escalating and it got to be a bigger and bigger issue. Sure. I was very glad I was getting a deferment out of it.

[Assistant] And what does your family and friends think of you volunteering?

[User] They were all for it. They fought for pretty much the same reasons that the you know, the idealistic reasons and the adventure of it all. I mean, it was it was fun. It was it was an interesting thing for their friend and son to be doing.

[Assistant] Where did you go to training?

[User] In Las Cruces, New Mexico, at New Mexico State University. I guess it was.

[Assistant] What what did your training to teach this stuff and how long were you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just Paraguay.

[Assistant] How many about how many people were in your training group?

[User] Thirty something.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that's about how many went down there. There were a couple of people who didn't make the cut, but most of them did.

[Assistant] So you were training for three months and then you took off for Paraguay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thirty something.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that's about how many went down there. There were a couple of people who didn't make the cut, but most of them did.

[Assistant] So you were training for three months and then you took off for Paraguay?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Ok, and what was your first impression on arriving in the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's about how many went down there. There were a couple of people who didn't make the cut, but most of them did.

[Assistant] So you were training for three months and then you took off for Paraguay?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Ok, and what was your first impression on arriving in the country?

[User] Uh. Hot, it was hot, it was poor, but somehow or other, it all worked and there are a lot of we first came to Asunción, the capital, stayed in the hotel there. That was you know, I looked at our expense there. There's a whole town, you know, as I say, basically the poor. And that was a problem. There's a whole town full of people speaking Spanish. And that was something of a I mean, that took a little getting used to it and not only speaking Spanish, but everything, you know, they were living they were there was an economy going on. They were eating. They were kind of doing the normal things people do. And yet it was not in the United States. It was not like the standard of living that Americans take for granted. And yet it all worked. I mean, that was I guess that was from the first impression I.

[Assistant] This isn't the best I could at least give us some idea. So this is what I do now. I should be getting bifocals, but in the meantime, I'm taking off and putting out my glasses. Uh. Ok, Paraguay. Oh, OK, so here it is right in the middle. Asunción is right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Ok, and what was your first impression on arriving in the country?

[User] Uh. Hot, it was hot, it was poor, but somehow or other, it all worked and there are a lot of we first came to Asunción, the capital, stayed in the hotel there. That was you know, I looked at our expense there. There's a whole town, you know, as I say, basically the poor. And that was a problem. There's a whole town full of people speaking Spanish. And that was something of a I mean, that took a little getting used to it and not only speaking Spanish, but everything, you know, they were living they were there was an economy going on. They were eating. They were kind of doing the normal things people do. And yet it was not in the United States. It was not like the standard of living that Americans take for granted. And yet it all worked. I mean, that was I guess that was from the first impression I.

[Assistant] This isn't the best I could at least give us some idea. So this is what I do now. I should be getting bifocals, but in the meantime, I'm taking off and putting out my glasses. Uh. Ok, Paraguay. Oh, OK, so here it is right in the middle. Asunción is right there.

[User] Right here. It's on the river.

[Assistant] OK, so so you were staying in a hotel and did they continue to have, like, orientation and training in Asunción?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right here. It's on the river.

[Assistant] OK, so so you were staying in a hotel and did they continue to have, like, orientation and training in Asunción?

[User] You know, I don't really remember. I think that was I think there was we got down there and they weren't quite ready for us. They were the first group. Yeah. Yeah. So it took a while to get everything lined up. I think some of the volunteers had their jobs and their situations are good to go right at the outset, but I was not one of them. So there were not the bulk of the volunteers in this first group were had up on farms, knew about agriculture, and they were they were the agricultural contingent. And they were going to work in the Paraguayan Agricultural Extension Service and, you know, share their knowledge of US agricultural practices with the Paraguayans. And a smaller group was known as a university group. And, you know, we'd all just graduated from college and and we didn't know anything about agriculture, didn't know anything useful. So we were going to we were going to teach it at various levels. And I think just because of the academic calendar or whatever, I forgot what the reason was. But a number of university group folks, you know, had to hang around and it situation for a while before they really got going.

[Assistant] And you were one of those.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And what did you do while you were to occupy yourself?