[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to do the loads on those things, too, of course. And kind of interesting, we were firing—I can't remember whether it was the one for Mercury or the one for Apollo, but we were worried about flutter of the fins and NASA engineers had done some flutter analyses and said, "Nah, they're fine." And the next time [we] fired one of these things—it had four rockets and they were supposed to be fired one after the other, but somehow or other, I don't know how this could have happened, but apparently two of the rockets ignited the other two, and so the whole thing went off together at one time. The thing went to very, very high dynamic pressures. I mean, like four times the dynamic pressure they were supposed to have had. [They] said it wouldn't flutter up to that speed [but] there was no need to test it. [Laughter] We did have fun.

[Assistant] That's good. Talking about fun and interesting events, after you left, we did finally get to the moon and landed on the moon. Do you remember watching Apollo 11 or where you were at the time?

[User] Yes. I don't remember exactly where I was, but I remember I took several days off work to watch it, because it was probably the most significant event in human history, I think, in the technical human history, anyway. It was very stirring, as well as exciting and scary and everything else. I'd been out of there for several years by the time that took place. I left at the end of '64, and I think that was, what, about '68?

[Assistant] '69. Must have been rewarding to see that something you had put so many year into—

[User] Yes. It was very, very stirring and very worthwhile, and I did agree with the speech he made. It was a giant step for mankind.

[Assistant] Absolutely. You moved on from NASA to work with Lockheed. What did you work on there? What were your roles and responsibilities as you first came in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don't remember exactly where I was, but I remember I took several days off work to watch it, because it was probably the most significant event in human history, I think, in the technical human history, anyway. It was very stirring, as well as exciting and scary and everything else. I'd been out of there for several years by the time that took place. I left at the end of '64, and I think that was, what, about '68?

[Assistant] '69. Must have been rewarding to see that something you had put so many year into—

[User] Yes. It was very, very stirring and very worthwhile, and I did agree with the speech he made. It was a giant step for mankind.

[Assistant] Absolutely. You moved on from NASA to work with Lockheed. What did you work on there? What were your roles and responsibilities as you first came in?

[User] I started with Fred Hoblitt's group in structural dynamics. That's where I…didn't go into a supervisory position. Lockheed was one of the few companies that had specialists, and I was a senior design specialist. They promoted them, they said, which they did. I was more interested in doing the technical work rather than getting into the political aspects of things.\n\n So I worked on statistical turbulence response of transport airplanes with Fred Hoblitt for about two years. Most of that was on the SST proposal, and that was canceled on New Year's Eve 1966. I remember that very well. I was sitting in front of the TV and had a drink in my hand, of course, and they announced this over the television set. My wife came over and filled my glass up with booze. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That must have been frustrating to hear it from the TV rather than from—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was very, very stirring and very worthwhile, and I did agree with the speech he made. It was a giant step for mankind.

[Assistant] Absolutely. You moved on from NASA to work with Lockheed. What did you work on there? What were your roles and responsibilities as you first came in?

[User] I started with Fred Hoblitt's group in structural dynamics. That's where I…didn't go into a supervisory position. Lockheed was one of the few companies that had specialists, and I was a senior design specialist. They promoted them, they said, which they did. I was more interested in doing the technical work rather than getting into the political aspects of things.\n\n So I worked on statistical turbulence response of transport airplanes with Fred Hoblitt for about two years. Most of that was on the SST proposal, and that was canceled on New Year's Eve 1966. I remember that very well. I was sitting in front of the TV and had a drink in my hand, of course, and they announced this over the television set. My wife came over and filled my glass up with booze. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That must have been frustrating to hear it from the TV rather than from—

[User] Yes. And when we got into work after the holidays were over, there wasn't a speck of it in view anywhere. The company had removed all drawings. Everything was gone, just like that. All the consultants—I wasn't a consultant, I was an employee, but all the consultants were relieved of duty and all that, so they just marched on, on to the L-1011. But in retrospect, I think it was a wise decision that the government made to cancel it in the long run, because neither—you asked something about that, didn't you? I think I wrote a few things down.

[Assistant] Yes, briefly, if you could tell us about what it was and what it involved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So for a supersonic transport to make sense, it has to have very long range, and they just really don't want to have long ranges unless they go at very high speeds. Like the SR-71, for example, has flown from the [West] Coast to the [East] Coast without refueling. I think it took about two hours to make the trip. About two hours, I think. And that's quite amazing for that kind of an airplane, but it flew at very, very high altitude, 80,000 feet or more. It's a very lightly built machine, too, and practically all fuel. So for strategic reconnaissance, it's fine, but passenger transport, maybe some day.

[Assistant] Have you followed at all or been aware of some of the studies, there's been talk about a transport that would go up and basically skip on the atmosphere and thus take less fuel?

[User] Yes. Well, is that proposed as a transport? That was a reentry technique that was used for the Dyna-Soar project. Yes, I've heard of that. I've never worked on it. But it's interesting. It is interesting.

[Assistant] Seems like maybe some day someone will come up with the right idea.

[User] I think that a plain supersonic transport won't happen, but a hypersonic transport might. It has to be very fast, because strange as it may seem, the faster it goes, the closer it gets to orbital speed and the less the drag and the greater the range.

[Assistant] Sure. That makes sense. Makes sense. After the supersonic transport was canceled, what did you move on to then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did research on high-speed helicopters out there for about seven years and tested rotors, stiff rotors, in the Ames [Research Center] wind tunnel. To verify theoretical analysis, we put together for dynamic loads [and] vibration of high-speed helicopter rotors. It was very rewarding. I remember Kurt Hohenemser, who was an acknowledged leader of U.S. helicopter [research], telling me after a lecture that I'd added materially to the understanding of that subject, which was a nice pat on the back.

[Assistant] That's very nice. That's good.

[User] I had a lot of fun doing that. I had a lot of fun with everything I was able to do. That's one of the reasons I stayed at Lockheed so long is that I didn't advance in the organization, but I had a lot of freedom to move around and go into different interesting tasks, tasks that other people gave up on, said, "Oh, give it to George." [Laughter] So, fine. Sometimes I could and sometimes I couldn't [solve them]. That would be my recommendation to any young people: Do not look for easy work to do. Look for the toughest jobs you can get. If you fail to do it, okay, it was a tough job. But if you succeed, then you've done something. You choose easy jobs and you win, so what? And if you don't do it, you're gone. [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] That's right. It's always good to have a challenge.

[User] Absolutely. Yes, yes, indeed. From there, where did I go? Rotary wing. We did some interesting work in rotary wing. I won't go into that, I guess.\n\n Are we just about out of time?

[Assistant] If there's more that you'd like to share with us, we—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's happened several times, people have used the work.

[Assistant] That must be very rewarding to be able to see that return.

[User] So it's full circle, and that's where we are.

[Assistant] Good. So you're continuing to do some of that now?

[User] Two years ago I was working in the little wind tunnel where these were done [pointing to pictures on wall]. These are our little wind tunnel—Bob Burrin. I would go in. Once in a while I'd get paid on a purchase order for 5,000 bucks or something like that, but often I'd just go in just for fun. I helped them set up the tunnel. In fact, my task at advanced research was to bring those tunnels from Georgia out here, so I did do that. I was going to do that. Bob Burrin, thank goodness, stepped in to take over doing that, and he's a superb experimentalist, and I thank goodness he did it. He put them in Rye Canyon and then had them moved up here a few years later, so now we have quite an extensive low-speed wind-tunnel capability at Lockheed-Martin. I still go out and offer my advice, which he's glad to get. [Laughter] He says he's glad to get. He's a very good guy.

[Assistant] That's good. That's very good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it's full circle, and that's where we are.

[Assistant] Good. So you're continuing to do some of that now?

[User] Two years ago I was working in the little wind tunnel where these were done [pointing to pictures on wall]. These are our little wind tunnel—Bob Burrin. I would go in. Once in a while I'd get paid on a purchase order for 5,000 bucks or something like that, but often I'd just go in just for fun. I helped them set up the tunnel. In fact, my task at advanced research was to bring those tunnels from Georgia out here, so I did do that. I was going to do that. Bob Burrin, thank goodness, stepped in to take over doing that, and he's a superb experimentalist, and I thank goodness he did it. He put them in Rye Canyon and then had them moved up here a few years later, so now we have quite an extensive low-speed wind-tunnel capability at Lockheed-Martin. I still go out and offer my advice, which he's glad to get. [Laughter] He says he's glad to get. He's a very good guy.

[Assistant] That's good. That's very good.

[User] So, still at it.

[Assistant] Still at it. It sounds like you've been able to enjoy a good career and have fun doing it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two years ago I was working in the little wind tunnel where these were done [pointing to pictures on wall]. These are our little wind tunnel—Bob Burrin. I would go in. Once in a while I'd get paid on a purchase order for 5,000 bucks or something like that, but often I'd just go in just for fun. I helped them set up the tunnel. In fact, my task at advanced research was to bring those tunnels from Georgia out here, so I did do that. I was going to do that. Bob Burrin, thank goodness, stepped in to take over doing that, and he's a superb experimentalist, and I thank goodness he did it. He put them in Rye Canyon and then had them moved up here a few years later, so now we have quite an extensive low-speed wind-tunnel capability at Lockheed-Martin. I still go out and offer my advice, which he's glad to get. [Laughter] He says he's glad to get. He's a very good guy.

[Assistant] That's good. That's very good.

[User] So, still at it.

[Assistant] Still at it. It sounds like you've been able to enjoy a good career and have fun doing it.

[User] It's kind of interesting, I've gone really through the aerodynamics on this Aerocraft Project that was just announced in\n\n Aviation Week\n\n a week or so ago, and it was sort of not classified, but it was proprietary. I did a lot of the aerodynamic design at the beginning [of the project], so that was fun, but now I've turned around and am looking at the design of pressure-stabilized structures. That is, blimps are pressure-stabilized structures. That type of a structure, anyway. And that's been very interesting, my latest work in the company.

[Assistant] That's interesting to have kind of come—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, still at it.

[Assistant] Still at it. It sounds like you've been able to enjoy a good career and have fun doing it.

[User] It's kind of interesting, I've gone really through the aerodynamics on this Aerocraft Project that was just announced in\n\n Aviation Week\n\n a week or so ago, and it was sort of not classified, but it was proprietary. I did a lot of the aerodynamic design at the beginning [of the project], so that was fun, but now I've turned around and am looking at the design of pressure-stabilized structures. That is, blimps are pressure-stabilized structures. That type of a structure, anyway. And that's been very interesting, my latest work in the company.

[Assistant] That's interesting to have kind of come—

[User] Full circle.

[Assistant] —full circle, all the way to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's kind of interesting, I've gone really through the aerodynamics on this Aerocraft Project that was just announced in\n\n Aviation Week\n\n a week or so ago, and it was sort of not classified, but it was proprietary. I did a lot of the aerodynamic design at the beginning [of the project], so that was fun, but now I've turned around and am looking at the design of pressure-stabilized structures. That is, blimps are pressure-stabilized structures. That type of a structure, anyway. And that's been very interesting, my latest work in the company.

[Assistant] That's interesting to have kind of come—

[User] Full circle.

[Assistant] —full circle, all the way to—

[User] Back to structures again, structural design, aerodynamic design and structural design. Structural analysis, mostly, but you get into the design, too, because something won't work and then you have to suggest what may work. And it's fun working with the young people today.\n\n It's a vastly different culture than it was long ago. I remember going into AVRO in the design office, and what you'd see is rear ends and elbows over drawing boards, a sea of them. Now you go in and you see people sitting in front of terminals, no paper.

[Assistant] You've certainly seen a change in tools that you've used.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Full circle.

[Assistant] —full circle, all the way to—

[User] Back to structures again, structural design, aerodynamic design and structural design. Structural analysis, mostly, but you get into the design, too, because something won't work and then you have to suggest what may work. And it's fun working with the young people today.\n\n It's a vastly different culture than it was long ago. I remember going into AVRO in the design office, and what you'd see is rear ends and elbows over drawing boards, a sea of them. Now you go in and you see people sitting in front of terminals, no paper.

[Assistant] You've certainly seen a change in tools that you've used.

[User] Started, there were no computers at all in the aircraft business. We actually literally did things by hand or with mechanical calculators. I remember when the Frieden [calculator] that took square roots came along. That was a huge advance, because finding square roots on a mechanical calculator without that is a real pain in the neck. And now we've seen it go all the way to supercomputers of today and solving the Navier-Stokes equations on a laptop.\n\n I have some young friends who are consultants that work with us. Harold Youngren is one. He's a superb practical but theoretical aerodynamicist, and I enjoy working with him. And Ken Grosenick is the one I work with on structures. He just lives a mile from here. He's a NASTRAN expert. So there's a lot of very interesting things still going on.

[Assistant] I'm sure you'll manage to stay involved with them, still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Started, there were no computers at all in the aircraft business. We actually literally did things by hand or with mechanical calculators. I remember when the Frieden [calculator] that took square roots came along. That was a huge advance, because finding square roots on a mechanical calculator without that is a real pain in the neck. And now we've seen it go all the way to supercomputers of today and solving the Navier-Stokes equations on a laptop.\n\n I have some young friends who are consultants that work with us. Harold Youngren is one. He's a superb practical but theoretical aerodynamicist, and I enjoy working with him. And Ken Grosenick is the one I work with on structures. He just lives a mile from here. He's a NASTRAN expert. So there's a lot of very interesting things still going on.

[Assistant] I'm sure you'll manage to stay involved with them, still.

[User] I hope so. I really do want to get back to teaching a lot. These last two years has been a lot of engineering work, and that's fine. I think if anyone is going to teach engineering, they should be doing engineering, because it's changing so rapidly and dramatically. But it has robbed me of the chance. Some of my courses are over there. The next one I want to give is on aircraft aerodynamic principles. The company out there wants how-to-do courses, but then [the management] said the students aren't interested in all the theory and everything. Every time I give a class, at the end I say, "Would you be interested in the theory and principles?" I get a unanimous "yes" answer from the students.

[Assistant] Have to have them fill out some surveys saying, "We want more."

[User] So I think they're going to let me give the course on principles whenever I get it ready.

[Assistant]
That should be interesting.

Looking back, you mentioned earlier that one of your greatest accomplishments or times was Mercury and seeing that be structurally sound and secure. What were some of your greatest challenges?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think they're going to let me give the course on principles whenever I get it ready.

[Assistant]
That should be interesting.

Looking back, you mentioned earlier that one of your greatest accomplishments or times was Mercury and seeing that be structurally sound and secure. What were some of your greatest challenges?

[User] I did write something down on that. I guess the biggest challenge would be to keep the weight down. It's easy enough to make things very strong, but you might just—I remember on Project Mercury just saying, if I continue to do this, especially the radiation shingle weight increase, the Atlas could only lift 6,000 pounds, period, and put that into orbit. It couldn't put anything heavier than that into orbit, and we were right there.\n\n So this was the biggest challenge, was to keep the weight down of these vehicles, and that's one of the reasons, I think, why Gemini went to the parachute ejection, because you save a lot of weight. When you have that big boom out in the front, the launch causes bending moments in the capsule…and you have to have structure in there to carry those bending moments. Although the tower disappears, it's not carried into orbit, the structural weight used to support the tower is carried all the way to the moon and back, in the case of Apollo.\n\n So the biggest challenge, I think, on that was keeping the weight [down], especially on Project Mercury. Of course, with Apollo we designed massive boosters, but it was only a tiny fraction, a few percent was the payload that went to the moon. I don't know what percent, a percent or two, something like that.

[Assistant] That's pretty small when you look at the whole rocket.

[User] A million and a half takeoff pounds' thrust and 30,000 pounds was the weight of the lunar excursion module or something like that. It's a very tiny fraction.

[Assistant] Were you ever able to see a Saturn V launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a V, but the SA-6. I saw Saturn. We had to do structural flight testing on the Saturn Apollo SA-6. It's funny, the Mercury Atlas was MA and Saturn Apollo's were Saturn Apollo. They reversed the order. Yes, they were very stirring things to do.\n\n The first Saturns had multiple tubes for the first booster and the [Saturn] V had just a single [tube] first-stage, so we had to look at structural dynamics of all these tubes and the way they would wiggle around. It was fun. A lot of very interesting problems on those systems.

[Assistant] Certainly never lacked for something interesting to do, it sounds like.

[User] No. I did work a little bit on the…docking simulator in the early days, and I learned a lot about how to make frictionless systems so that you could simulate the motion in space where there, of course, is no friction. A lot of that work helped later on.\n\n Part of that came from AVRO Arrow, too. It had a landing-gear failure. When you retracted the gear, [it] had to both retract and shorten and twist to fit within the smaller hole in the bottom of the airplane. In doing that one time it didn't shorten, so it kind of caught fire when it landed. It was still at an angle like that. So we had a big job of trying to figure out why that happened. It turned out in the end that the friction coefficient can be—there's a rule that it can't be greater than one, but with certain geometries it can go very much higher than that. That sort of understanding helped the design of some of the early docking simulators when I was working on [them].

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] So what you learn in one project carries over to another again and again.

[Assistant] That seems to be a very important lesson that can carry on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I did work a little bit on the…docking simulator in the early days, and I learned a lot about how to make frictionless systems so that you could simulate the motion in space where there, of course, is no friction. A lot of that work helped later on.\n\n Part of that came from AVRO Arrow, too. It had a landing-gear failure. When you retracted the gear, [it] had to both retract and shorten and twist to fit within the smaller hole in the bottom of the airplane. In doing that one time it didn't shorten, so it kind of caught fire when it landed. It was still at an angle like that. So we had a big job of trying to figure out why that happened. It turned out in the end that the friction coefficient can be—there's a rule that it can't be greater than one, but with certain geometries it can go very much higher than that. That sort of understanding helped the design of some of the early docking simulators when I was working on [them].

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] So what you learn in one project carries over to another again and again.

[Assistant] That seems to be a very important lesson that can carry on.

[User] That's what I find today. It's almost embarrassing. They come up with some horrible problems and I can say, "Well, this is what we did before, that worked." And it happens again and again and again.

[Assistant] Looking back, was there a particular moment that was most memorable and most rewarding to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's what I find today. It's almost embarrassing. They come up with some horrible problems and I can say, "Well, this is what we did before, that worked." And it happens again and again and again.

[Assistant] Looking back, was there a particular moment that was most memorable and most rewarding to you?

[User] At AVRO, the most rewarding and most memorable moment was watching the C-105 take off for the first time, and I was responsible for its structural integrity. In fact, the week before, I had found that when they lowered the nose landing gear, that the door caused a pressure head to go into the air-conditioning system, that would have blown the whole air-conditioning system up.

[Assistant] Oh dear.

[User] Then we had that beefed up. That was actually a couple of weeks, a month before, I guess, and they beefed it all up so it was okay. But realizing how many things did I forget, and watching it take off and climb, you've heard the expression "hair stands up on the back of the neck." Quite literally, mine did. I could feel the back of my hair sticking straight up as I watched that first flight. So that was probably the most exciting and rewarding thing at AVRO.\n\n Of course, watching the space shots, especially watching them on telemetry where you could see technically what was going on, was very, very interesting, seeing all the hard work come to pay off. It was a lot of fun.\n\n I guess you asked about the controversy [between] parachute ejection and escape towers. I think I'd have to say in the end to that, that probably the escape tower provided greater safety. I will say that for it. But that's what you paid the heavier weight for. It was probably safer under more general conditions.\n\n You did mention something about the fire, and I've forgotten which spacecraft it was now, that the three astronauts were killed.

[Assistant] Yes, the Apollo 1 fire.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At AVRO, the most rewarding and most memorable moment was watching the C-105 take off for the first time, and I was responsible for its structural integrity. In fact, the week before, I had found that when they lowered the nose landing gear, that the door caused a pressure head to go into the air-conditioning system, that would have blown the whole air-conditioning system up.

[Assistant] Oh dear.

[User] Then we had that beefed up. That was actually a couple of weeks, a month before, I guess, and they beefed it all up so it was okay. But realizing how many things did I forget, and watching it take off and climb, you've heard the expression "hair stands up on the back of the neck." Quite literally, mine did. I could feel the back of my hair sticking straight up as I watched that first flight. So that was probably the most exciting and rewarding thing at AVRO.\n\n Of course, watching the space shots, especially watching them on telemetry where you could see technically what was going on, was very, very interesting, seeing all the hard work come to pay off. It was a lot of fun.\n\n I guess you asked about the controversy [between] parachute ejection and escape towers. I think I'd have to say in the end to that, that probably the escape tower provided greater safety. I will say that for it. But that's what you paid the heavier weight for. It was probably safer under more general conditions.\n\n You did mention something about the fire, and I've forgotten which spacecraft it was now, that the three astronauts were killed.

[Assistant] Yes, the Apollo 1 fire.

[User] Yes. I knew one of the pilots. What was his name?

[Assistant] There was Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I knew one of the pilots. What was his name?

[Assistant] There was Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom—

[User] Grissom. He's the one. I knew him. But I hadn't realized myself that they used 100 percent oxygen and then pressurized it on the pad to 5 psi above atmospheric so they wouldn't have to repressurize it after that. And I thought to myself, every high school student knows that you can burn anything in that kind of an atmosphere. With any heat at all, anything will burn. And they had Teflon insulation in there as well, which is poisonous, the gases from that are poisonous. How could they be so ridiculous? So I was just appalled that that accident ever happened. But I noted later that they used a two-gas mixture after that. Was it helium and oxygen? I think it was.

[Assistant] I think it may have been. Very unfortunate occurrence.

[User] Oh, yes. Gus nearly bought it on Project Mercury, too. You know that story, I guess, where his neck dam wasn't sealed. His suit was filling with water, and the helicopter came over and he was waving frantically for it to come down. As his dam was filling, he was going to go down. So they waved back. Luckily the guys got in the water and got to him before he did go down.

[Assistant] Must have been a frightening experience for him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grissom. He's the one. I knew him. But I hadn't realized myself that they used 100 percent oxygen and then pressurized it on the pad to 5 psi above atmospheric so they wouldn't have to repressurize it after that. And I thought to myself, every high school student knows that you can burn anything in that kind of an atmosphere. With any heat at all, anything will burn. And they had Teflon insulation in there as well, which is poisonous, the gases from that are poisonous. How could they be so ridiculous? So I was just appalled that that accident ever happened. But I noted later that they used a two-gas mixture after that. Was it helium and oxygen? I think it was.

[Assistant] I think it may have been. Very unfortunate occurrence.

[User] Oh, yes. Gus nearly bought it on Project Mercury, too. You know that story, I guess, where his neck dam wasn't sealed. His suit was filling with water, and the helicopter came over and he was waving frantically for it to come down. As his dam was filling, he was going to go down. So they waved back. Luckily the guys got in the water and got to him before he did go down.

[Assistant] Must have been a frightening experience for him.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Gus nearly bought it on Project Mercury, too. You know that story, I guess, where his neck dam wasn't sealed. His suit was filling with water, and the helicopter came over and he was waving frantically for it to come down. As his dam was filling, he was going to go down. So they waved back. Luckily the guys got in the water and got to him before he did go down.

[Assistant] Must have been a frightening experience for him.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm going to let them change the tape here real quick. [Brief interruption]\n\n Okay, we're back on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm going to let them change the tape here real quick. [Brief interruption]\n\n Okay, we're back on.

[User] We're in challenges.

[Assistant] Challenges. Were there any challenges?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're in challenges.

[Assistant] Challenges. Were there any challenges?

[User] I just made a summary of some of these. I guess I mentioned the ultra-thin highly loaded control surface of the AVRO Arrow was one of the early big challenges. I guess I mentioned a lot of these things.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yes. I did mention the Apollo heat-shield design was a huge challenge, not for me, but for the others. That, I think, pretty well covered the Lockheed and NASA and AVRO challenges.

[Assistant] Okay. Were there other challenges as you came to Lockheed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a lot of fun. Did that in Rye Canyon in a high-altitude chamber that simulated the outside environment, and then we had a volume inside a tank and we put some [seats and] anthropomorphic dummies and everything in there to see that nobody followed the air [out] through the hole, and things like that. Then we tested an awful lot of [vent] designs there. It was fun. As soon as we opened a huge valve that simulated the hole, then air would rush out and the cabin would fill with fog instantly.

[Assistant] With fog?

[User] Yes, because the temperature drops down and so it drops below the dew point, and the water vapor condenses instantly everywhere to opaque fog in the cabin.

[Assistant] Oh, my.

[User] And it was kind of interesting that the air underneath the cabin expanded out through the hole and its temperature would drop, but then when the air from up above would relatively slowly come down, the temperature would rise again. That was predicated analytically and we measured it with sensitive instruments and found that that's exactly what did happen. So it was technically a lot of fun. I enjoyed that exercise.

[Assistant] And that's certainly something rather important, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not much. I flew some Ultralights about three years ago, but I decided they were too darn dangerous. Very difficult to fly and very dangerous and very impractical, since they fly at 35 miles an hour.\n\n If the wind comes up, you can't get home, for one thing. And if you fly when there's any thermals or anything, they stall at such a low speed that you could be upset, and if you're close to the ground when that happens, forget it. So I thought, you know—it was shortly after my wife passed away and I didn't care whether I lived or died very much anyway, so I did that for a while, and thought, hmm, you know, let's not do this anymore.

[Assistant] It must have been neat to get to fly the helicopter.

[User] Oh, that was fun, yes. Had to slow it down, so I slowed down and watched the air speed go down, down, down to zero. If you're used to flying a fixed-wing airplane, it's a strange feeling. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Oh, I bet.

[User] That was a helicopter that Lockheed had developed and had actually sold some to Belgium, but they didn't ever—they could have sold them, but they didn't.\n\n I guess one of the most thrilling rewards lately is just receiving—the last time I gave my aircraft drag estimation course, which was the third time I'd given it, the students all clapped, gave me an ovation at the end…and half a dozen of them came up and shook my hand and thanked me. That was a big thrill.

[Assistant] That's really great to get that recognition from them. That's pretty special.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that was fun, yes. Had to slow it down, so I slowed down and watched the air speed go down, down, down to zero. If you're used to flying a fixed-wing airplane, it's a strange feeling. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Oh, I bet.

[User] That was a helicopter that Lockheed had developed and had actually sold some to Belgium, but they didn't ever—they could have sold them, but they didn't.\n\n I guess one of the most thrilling rewards lately is just receiving—the last time I gave my aircraft drag estimation course, which was the third time I'd given it, the students all clapped, gave me an ovation at the end…and half a dozen of them came up and shook my hand and thanked me. That was a big thrill.

[Assistant] That's really great to get that recognition from them. That's pretty special.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] To know that you have touched a newcoming generation of engineers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a helicopter that Lockheed had developed and had actually sold some to Belgium, but they didn't ever—they could have sold them, but they didn't.\n\n I guess one of the most thrilling rewards lately is just receiving—the last time I gave my aircraft drag estimation course, which was the third time I'd given it, the students all clapped, gave me an ovation at the end…and half a dozen of them came up and shook my hand and thanked me. That was a big thrill.

[Assistant] That's really great to get that recognition from them. That's pretty special.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] To know that you have touched a newcoming generation of engineers.

[User] There's a big reward in doing that, too, because you begin to understand things that you only vaguely had an idea about before. So I was really surprised that more retired men have not done that. I thought everybody would be doing it, but I'm the only one I know who has gone back to teach, and I don't understand that. Golf can't mean that much, surely, can it? [Laughter]

[Assistant] [Laughter] Surely not.\n\n You've had extensive experience with the space program and aerospace and all in general. What are your thoughts on the future? How do you see things changing or moving on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think saddling someone with a huge debt to pay back at the end is also—I don't know where our minds are. You need to spend your time studying when you're going to school. You can't spend it working all day and then go in and take courses at night or something like that.

[Assistant] Very difficult.

[User] So we'll probably get around to that. I mean, it's interesting today, and one of the big changes is that my mother didn't have to have a side job. My father was able to support her. I think that was the case with everyone I knew. The mother stayed home and looked after the children and all the social aspects of the family. Today when both parents have to work, I think that's not good for the society in general. They talk about equal opportunity for women, yeah, equal opportunity to die an early death is what it boils down to. That's why women outlive men, or used to outlive men…because the men were out fighting at work, you know, through work, [while at] the [same] time [then women] were out looking after the kids and so on. So I'm not sure that this "freedom" is a very useful thing.\n\n My wife actually worked to support me going through school, too, but after that she had odd jobs for many years, temporary secretaries and things like that, but over the long haul, most of the time she'd be able to spend at home looking after the social aspects of life, which are very, very important.

[Assistant] Very important.

[User] Especially in the military or the government, as you're probably well aware of, where you come from.

[Assistant] That's right. Looking back over your career, when you first got started, you were interested in aviation from a young age, but would you ever have imagined where your life would lead you, where your career would lead you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we'll probably get around to that. I mean, it's interesting today, and one of the big changes is that my mother didn't have to have a side job. My father was able to support her. I think that was the case with everyone I knew. The mother stayed home and looked after the children and all the social aspects of the family. Today when both parents have to work, I think that's not good for the society in general. They talk about equal opportunity for women, yeah, equal opportunity to die an early death is what it boils down to. That's why women outlive men, or used to outlive men…because the men were out fighting at work, you know, through work, [while at] the [same] time [then women] were out looking after the kids and so on. So I'm not sure that this "freedom" is a very useful thing.\n\n My wife actually worked to support me going through school, too, but after that she had odd jobs for many years, temporary secretaries and things like that, but over the long haul, most of the time she'd be able to spend at home looking after the social aspects of life, which are very, very important.

[Assistant] Very important.

[User] Especially in the military or the government, as you're probably well aware of, where you come from.

[Assistant] That's right. Looking back over your career, when you first got started, you were interested in aviation from a young age, but would you ever have imagined where your life would lead you, where your career would lead you?

[User] No. I expected to get a degree in engineering and spend the rest of my life as a pauper, doing what I wanted to do, and [to have] the idea that I could ever help build a machine to fly to the moon was totally beyond my comprehension at that time. So life has been very rewarding. I have no complaints at all.

[Assistant] That's good. I think at this point I'll—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I expected to get a degree in engineering and spend the rest of my life as a pauper, doing what I wanted to do, and [to have] the idea that I could ever help build a machine to fly to the moon was totally beyond my comprehension at that time. So life has been very rewarding. I have no complaints at all.

[Assistant] That's good. I think at this point I'll—

[User] I'll say one other thing, though.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that is, to the young people who sit around today and think that everything's been done, that's not true. Knowledge is like the stars in the sky at night. It's little pin pricks. That's what we know. All the black in between is what we don't know, and it's what we don't know that will propel us into the future. That's why education and understanding physics and mathematics from first principles is so important.

[Assistant] That's a great thought. You're right, there is a lot to learn out there. There's still a lot that we can—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll say one other thing, though.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that is, to the young people who sit around today and think that everything's been done, that's not true. Knowledge is like the stars in the sky at night. It's little pin pricks. That's what we know. All the black in between is what we don't know, and it's what we don't know that will propel us into the future. That's why education and understanding physics and mathematics from first principles is so important.

[Assistant] That's a great thought. You're right, there is a lot to learn out there. There's still a lot that we can—

[User] And I think that there's no better time to live than today, for a young person. I wish I were young and starting out again, there's so much to do.

[Assistant] There's still plenty that you can do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that is, to the young people who sit around today and think that everything's been done, that's not true. Knowledge is like the stars in the sky at night. It's little pin pricks. That's what we know. All the black in between is what we don't know, and it's what we don't know that will propel us into the future. That's why education and understanding physics and mathematics from first principles is so important.

[Assistant] That's a great thought. You're right, there is a lot to learn out there. There's still a lot that we can—

[User] And I think that there's no better time to live than today, for a young person. I wish I were young and starting out again, there's so much to do.

[Assistant] There's still plenty that you can do.

[User] I hope so. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
And be involved with.\n\n I think I'll ask Summer and Rebecca if they have any questions.

We certainly have enjoyed hearing all that you've been able to accomplish in, to me, a very short time, but I'm sure that your days were very long. Did you feel like, especially during those early days when you joined the NASA force, that it was just one long continuous day? Or was it one long continuous adventure you got up every morning to continue doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think that there's no better time to live than today, for a young person. I wish I were young and starting out again, there's so much to do.

[Assistant] There's still plenty that you can do.

[User] I hope so. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
And be involved with.\n\n I think I'll ask Summer and Rebecca if they have any questions.

We certainly have enjoyed hearing all that you've been able to accomplish in, to me, a very short time, but I'm sure that your days were very long. Did you feel like, especially during those early days when you joined the NASA force, that it was just one long continuous day? Or was it one long continuous adventure you got up every morning to continue doing?

[User] It was a long continuous adventure, and there was home life and social life that did go along, which I didn't touch on, that was also very rewarding, and making new friends and seeing how society operates under different kinds of stress. Some people divorced their wives and ran off with their secretaries, which would never have happened in a normal course of things. That was really kind of surprising to me. [Laughter] And the astronauts, they chased around and were made idols of. It was fun being with them and seeing how human beings adapt to that sort of stress, in a sense, but it can be nice stress as well as unpleasant stress. But the rewards of understanding were tremendous, and to actually see the visions and pictures from space and everything, it was just worth every bit of it.

[Assistant] You've left quite a legacy, and we thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
And be involved with.\n\n I think I'll ask Summer and Rebecca if they have any questions.

We certainly have enjoyed hearing all that you've been able to accomplish in, to me, a very short time, but I'm sure that your days were very long. Did you feel like, especially during those early days when you joined the NASA force, that it was just one long continuous day? Or was it one long continuous adventure you got up every morning to continue doing?

[User] It was a long continuous adventure, and there was home life and social life that did go along, which I didn't touch on, that was also very rewarding, and making new friends and seeing how society operates under different kinds of stress. Some people divorced their wives and ran off with their secretaries, which would never have happened in a normal course of things. That was really kind of surprising to me. [Laughter] And the astronauts, they chased around and were made idols of. It was fun being with them and seeing how human beings adapt to that sort of stress, in a sense, but it can be nice stress as well as unpleasant stress. But the rewards of understanding were tremendous, and to actually see the visions and pictures from space and everything, it was just worth every bit of it.

[Assistant] You've left quite a legacy, and we thank you.

[User] It's my great pleasure to be able to tell you a few of those things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you can think of that you wanted to share with us that we didn't cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a long continuous adventure, and there was home life and social life that did go along, which I didn't touch on, that was also very rewarding, and making new friends and seeing how society operates under different kinds of stress. Some people divorced their wives and ran off with their secretaries, which would never have happened in a normal course of things. That was really kind of surprising to me. [Laughter] And the astronauts, they chased around and were made idols of. It was fun being with them and seeing how human beings adapt to that sort of stress, in a sense, but it can be nice stress as well as unpleasant stress. But the rewards of understanding were tremendous, and to actually see the visions and pictures from space and everything, it was just worth every bit of it.

[Assistant] You've left quite a legacy, and we thank you.

[User] It's my great pleasure to be able to tell you a few of those things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you can think of that you wanted to share with us that we didn't cover?

[User] Actually, I think you covered it fairly well. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's rewarding for us to hear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's my great pleasure to be able to tell you a few of those things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you can think of that you wanted to share with us that we didn't cover?

[User] Actually, I think you covered it fairly well. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's rewarding for us to hear.

[User] Yes. You've prepared me very well, and it was, I think, an excellent job. I'll be anxious to see what my brothers have said and told you about and how they contradicted me. [Laughter]

[Assistant] From what I've heard and shared with you today, I don't think I've heard any contradictions, particularly, from previously, but we'll certainly keep you posted on how things go and who else we talk to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was one of three girls. I was the one in the middle, and I grew up in a small town called Watsonville in California. And it was a different era for girls. And we, when I heard about the Peace Corps and the adventure and what you could do, there was no doubt in my mind that that's what I was going to do.

[Assistant] And when did you first hear about that?

[User] Well, I had been in a ski accident. I was very athletic. And I had been wheeled up to the University of California, Berkeley, and was right up in the front row on the floor of the stadium, Memorial Stadium. And out of the tunnel came this amazing man. And the sun was hitting his hair. It had like a reddish tone to it, and he was walking with his hand on his back. And I can close my eyes and see it clearly at this moment as he walked by me and caught my eye, his beautiful blue eyes, and walked up on that podium and gave the call to service. And when he said those words, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. My heart was already primed to serve and I could see myself living in a tree in Africa and serving and working and teaching, and that became my dream.

[Assistant] So let's just be clear, this man was?

[User] John F. Kennedy.

[Assistant] And he was on the campaign trail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, nothing at all. And I, um, it was my father. My family, they had established Granite Construction Company, was very male dominated company. And I had an older sister and a younger sister. Wonderful mother. My mother, very hardworking. Very supportive. You know, really hard rock upbringing. She was kind of like out of the Oklahoma movement. And so she wanted just me to be happy. And she was very worried about me going into the Peace Corps as so many mothers were at that time and are today.

[Assistant] Indeed. It's the parental concerns.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Now, so you married John. Did you apply for Peace Corps together during your engagement time or how did you? How was that?

[User] No, we applied right after we were married six weeks after he proposed and then the Peace Corps recruitment came to the campus and we filled out the forms one Saturday morning and were invited to go to Guatemala. And we looked at each other and said, that's too close to home. And so they sent us an invitation to Africa. We said, that's it. And off we went to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] But before you got to Ethiopia, you had to do some training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Now, so you married John. Did you apply for Peace Corps together during your engagement time or how did you? How was that?

[User] No, we applied right after we were married six weeks after he proposed and then the Peace Corps recruitment came to the campus and we filled out the forms one Saturday morning and were invited to go to Guatemala. And we looked at each other and said, that's too close to home. And so they sent us an invitation to Africa. We said, that's it. And off we went to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] But before you got to Ethiopia, you had to do some training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where was the training and how was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we applied right after we were married six weeks after he proposed and then the Peace Corps recruitment came to the campus and we filled out the forms one Saturday morning and were invited to go to Guatemala. And we looked at each other and said, that's too close to home. And so they sent us an invitation to Africa. We said, that's it. And off we went to Ethiopia.

[Assistant] But before you got to Ethiopia, you had to do some training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where was the training and how was that?

[User] Well, the training was also a big impact on my life. We were trained in Shiprock, New Mexico, on the Navajo reservation, and that was another entirely new experience that really touched my heart. Our students were, they were just the most wonderful students and to just live on the reservation where they had lived and were living, it was really eye-opening to us and we bonded there. We, you know, we learned to teach English as a second language, but that was a. And we studied the Ethiopian language and [speaks Amharic]. I mean, we really got the good, the good language training, and that was wonderful.

[Assistant] And what language is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Where was the training and how was that?

[User] Well, the training was also a big impact on my life. We were trained in Shiprock, New Mexico, on the Navajo reservation, and that was another entirely new experience that really touched my heart. Our students were, they were just the most wonderful students and to just live on the reservation where they had lived and were living, it was really eye-opening to us and we bonded there. We, you know, we learned to teach English as a second language, but that was a. And we studied the Ethiopian language and [speaks Amharic]. I mean, we really got the good, the good language training, and that was wonderful.

[Assistant] And what language is that?

[User] That's Amharic. We were trained in Amharic. But then when we arrived in country, we were sent to the Illubabor where they spoke Oromo, which [speaks Oromo]. So it was, um, you know, we adapted.

[Assistant] And so we're going forward a little bit here. But this is relevant, I think, in terms of a Peace Corps experience. You learn one language in training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the training was also a big impact on my life. We were trained in Shiprock, New Mexico, on the Navajo reservation, and that was another entirely new experience that really touched my heart. Our students were, they were just the most wonderful students and to just live on the reservation where they had lived and were living, it was really eye-opening to us and we bonded there. We, you know, we learned to teach English as a second language, but that was a. And we studied the Ethiopian language and [speaks Amharic]. I mean, we really got the good, the good language training, and that was wonderful.

[Assistant] And what language is that?

[User] That's Amharic. We were trained in Amharic. But then when we arrived in country, we were sent to the Illubabor where they spoke Oromo, which [speaks Oromo]. So it was, um, you know, we adapted.

[Assistant] And so we're going forward a little bit here. But this is relevant, I think, in terms of a Peace Corps experience. You learn one language in training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you got to your site, you discovered you had to learn another language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's Amharic. We were trained in Amharic. But then when we arrived in country, we were sent to the Illubabor where they spoke Oromo, which [speaks Oromo]. So it was, um, you know, we adapted.

[Assistant] And so we're going forward a little bit here. But this is relevant, I think, in terms of a Peace Corps experience. You learn one language in training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you got to your site, you discovered you had to learn another language.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you in the course of those two years continue working in both languages?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you got to your site, you discovered you had to learn another language.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you in the course of those two years continue working in both languages?

[User] Yes, we continued working in both languages because we were teaching English. The Amharas were very much the teachers and the government officials under Haile Selassie in the country. So Amharic was widely spoken throughout Illubabor province, but the students and the villagers all spoke Oromo.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your entire training then was in New Mexico on the Navajo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you in the course of those two years continue working in both languages?

[User] Yes, we continued working in both languages because we were teaching English. The Amharas were very much the teachers and the government officials under Haile Selassie in the country. So Amharic was widely spoken throughout Illubabor province, but the students and the villagers all spoke Oromo.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your entire training then was in New Mexico on the Navajo.

[User] It was, no. First we were at the University of Utah.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Yeah. All right. Is there anything? I know in your era a number of us were in training programs where deselection was a big deal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we continued working in both languages because we were teaching English. The Amharas were very much the teachers and the government officials under Haile Selassie in the country. So Amharic was widely spoken throughout Illubabor province, but the students and the villagers all spoke Oromo.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your entire training then was in New Mexico on the Navajo.

[User] It was, no. First we were at the University of Utah.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Yeah. All right. Is there anything? I know in your era a number of us were in training programs where deselection was a big deal.

[User] Big deal, big deal.

[Assistant] How did it impact? What was your observation and how did it impact your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, no. First we were at the University of Utah.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Yeah. All right. Is there anything? I know in your era a number of us were in training programs where deselection was a big deal.

[User] Big deal, big deal.

[Assistant] How did it impact? What was your observation and how did it impact your group?

[User]
It impacted it really hard. We had some people that we protected, frankly. There were a couple of people that we knew to be gay, and we, as married couples, kind of kept them within our group. We, because they were, there was so much discrimination at that time. There also, I mean, there was also a hard level for women too. I mean, I remember going and sitting with the quote psychiatrists and, you know, I had excelled in everything, absolutely everything in training. But then this psychiatrist said, well. You're sitting there as a couple. They said, well, you look more like the flower of California than a Peace Corps volunteer. But since you're going with this big, strong man who is a football player, you will be just fine. That's the era. I had to bite my tongue so hard just to get through the process.

My husband spoke up. He said, she's the reason we're here and she is tough as nails. So anyway, it's just, there were a lot of things that went on in deselection that a lot of people didn't weather, and that was really unfortunate. There was one woman who was a fantastic teacher, but she was in her sixties, so they discriminated against her on age, and she would have, she was heartbroken. She should have been, and she was healthy as can be. But they, I think they deselected about 60 percent of our class.

[Assistant] Yes, that was the experience in a number of training groups then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Big deal, big deal.

[Assistant] How did it impact? What was your observation and how did it impact your group?

[User]
It impacted it really hard. We had some people that we protected, frankly. There were a couple of people that we knew to be gay, and we, as married couples, kind of kept them within our group. We, because they were, there was so much discrimination at that time. There also, I mean, there was also a hard level for women too. I mean, I remember going and sitting with the quote psychiatrists and, you know, I had excelled in everything, absolutely everything in training. But then this psychiatrist said, well. You're sitting there as a couple. They said, well, you look more like the flower of California than a Peace Corps volunteer. But since you're going with this big, strong man who is a football player, you will be just fine. That's the era. I had to bite my tongue so hard just to get through the process.

My husband spoke up. He said, she's the reason we're here and she is tough as nails. So anyway, it's just, there were a lot of things that went on in deselection that a lot of people didn't weather, and that was really unfortunate. There was one woman who was a fantastic teacher, but she was in her sixties, so they discriminated against her on age, and she would have, she was heartbroken. She should have been, and she was healthy as can be. But they, I think they deselected about 60 percent of our class.

[Assistant] Yes, that was the experience in a number of training groups then.

[User] But just Thursday night, the survivors, we all got together here at a Peace Corps conference, and we always reminisce on how wonderful the Peace Corps experience was. Once we got to our villages, it was perfect.

[Assistant] Indeed. We've just finished the 55th anniversary celebrations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But just Thursday night, the survivors, we all got together here at a Peace Corps conference, and we always reminisce on how wonderful the Peace Corps experience was. Once we got to our villages, it was perfect.

[Assistant] Indeed. We've just finished the 55th anniversary celebrations.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All over, shall we say. The 55th anniversary continues and the celebrations will continue for a long time, for another year at least, until we get to the next year. So we did lose some important and valuable talent during that deselection process. Anything? How about, OK, if you think of anything you'd like to add about the end of training or about that whole experience?

[User] I just thought it was the most wonderful cross-cultural training possible. And there were some things that the Peace Corps really did well, like the language training and really good health care and really setting us up. In later years when I had the chance to serve in the Clinton administration and he asked me what I wanted to do. I said, you know, as a volunteer, we always all thought we could do much better than the administration was doing at the time. So let me have a chance at it. And so with a great deal of humor, I took that on. It was wonderful.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's great. That's great. So then let's move from training to your first few days in the country. Did you have additional orientation there and what was your reaction when you arrived in Ethiopia? Was it what you expected to find at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, to be shipped and they never came. But it was fine. It was worked out for the best. And who cares? We had our two suitcases and we just made it. We just had a ball and we laughed and laughed. We really loved it. Yeah.

[Assistant] So who taught you how to cook and how to prepare food? What kinds of utensils?

[User] My students. They started taking care of us. See, because, you know, that's what's so wonderful about Peace Corps. You live at the same level as the people. You speak their language. You unpack your bags and you stay and they adopt you. And our students, they taught me. They would bring us enough to get through each day. Then they would teach me how to cook. John's funny memory is coming back from being out. He had a horse where he rode all through the villages, helping with water and all. And so he came back to our hut one day and there I was in the backyard, you know, plucking a chicken, you know. I mean, this was like, this is like. He has this great picture of me plucking a chicken with this look on my face. Who would have thought?

[Assistant] And how did you learn to pluck a chicken?

[User] Well, you just have feathers, so you just are plucking. I got the little neighbor boy to chop the neck, but I had to cook something for, you know.

[Assistant] You had to figure out how had to pluck and cut that chicken up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My students. They started taking care of us. See, because, you know, that's what's so wonderful about Peace Corps. You live at the same level as the people. You speak their language. You unpack your bags and you stay and they adopt you. And our students, they taught me. They would bring us enough to get through each day. Then they would teach me how to cook. John's funny memory is coming back from being out. He had a horse where he rode all through the villages, helping with water and all. And so he came back to our hut one day and there I was in the backyard, you know, plucking a chicken, you know. I mean, this was like, this is like. He has this great picture of me plucking a chicken with this look on my face. Who would have thought?

[Assistant] And how did you learn to pluck a chicken?

[User] Well, you just have feathers, so you just are plucking. I got the little neighbor boy to chop the neck, but I had to cook something for, you know.

[Assistant] You had to figure out how had to pluck and cut that chicken up.

[User] Yes, you did. Yes, you did.

[Assistant] Right. That's great. So what were the staples for the villagers and what became your staples in terms of food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you just have feathers, so you just are plucking. I got the little neighbor boy to chop the neck, but I had to cook something for, you know.

[Assistant] You had to figure out how had to pluck and cut that chicken up.

[User] Yes, you did. Yes, you did.

[Assistant] Right. That's great. So what were the staples for the villagers and what became your staples in terms of food?

[User] Well, the staple. It's a very healthy diet that the Ethiopians, they're really smart, beautiful, healthy people. Teff is the grain that they grow. And so they have the big injera pancakes.

[Assistant] What is it called?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you did. Yes, you did.

[Assistant] Right. That's great. So what were the staples for the villagers and what became your staples in terms of food?

[User] Well, the staple. It's a very healthy diet that the Ethiopians, they're really smart, beautiful, healthy people. Teff is the grain that they grow. And so they have the big injera pancakes.

[Assistant] What is it called?

[User] Injera.

[Assistant] Injera pancake, but what is the grain?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the staple. It's a very healthy diet that the Ethiopians, they're really smart, beautiful, healthy people. Teff is the grain that they grow. And so they have the big injera pancakes.

[Assistant] What is it called?

[User] Injera.

[Assistant] Injera pancake, but what is the grain?

[User] Teff, T-E-F-F. Very nutritious. And it can be made out of bocolo, which is corn, but that's not as nutritious as the teff. So you always wanted the teff. And you could get that. The neighboring ladies would always, because they made it so well in the little cook. We had a little wood cook house that we all shared out back where we ended up living. We were in, you know, we had like a room in the middle and then we let the students that we adopted all stay in a big room on one side of our house. And then the other side was kind of a local brothel. And so it was really. And we all shared the same cook house out back. It was fun. It was just great. We just, we, you know, they were making adaki, which was the local brew. And I was cooking dodo wat, which is the chicken with the stew. You got to know everybody.

[Assistant] Did they have any vegetables in terms of what we think of as vegetables?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Injera.

[Assistant] Injera pancake, but what is the grain?

[User] Teff, T-E-F-F. Very nutritious. And it can be made out of bocolo, which is corn, but that's not as nutritious as the teff. So you always wanted the teff. And you could get that. The neighboring ladies would always, because they made it so well in the little cook. We had a little wood cook house that we all shared out back where we ended up living. We were in, you know, we had like a room in the middle and then we let the students that we adopted all stay in a big room on one side of our house. And then the other side was kind of a local brothel. And so it was really. And we all shared the same cook house out back. It was fun. It was just great. We just, we, you know, they were making adaki, which was the local brew. And I was cooking dodo wat, which is the chicken with the stew. You got to know everybody.

[Assistant] Did they have any vegetables in terms of what we think of as vegetables?

[User] Well, we, um. Of course, guava and sometimes some papaya. Mango. But the vegetables, that's one thing that we would always try to. We always had a vegetable garden and we always encouraged the vegetables. They had things that they were able to incorporate into their injeras. So they loved actually the cabbage or they loved the carrot, and they'd mix it in with the stew, depending seasonally when they could do that.

[Assistant] So it would enhance the nutrition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Teff, T-E-F-F. Very nutritious. And it can be made out of bocolo, which is corn, but that's not as nutritious as the teff. So you always wanted the teff. And you could get that. The neighboring ladies would always, because they made it so well in the little cook. We had a little wood cook house that we all shared out back where we ended up living. We were in, you know, we had like a room in the middle and then we let the students that we adopted all stay in a big room on one side of our house. And then the other side was kind of a local brothel. And so it was really. And we all shared the same cook house out back. It was fun. It was just great. We just, we, you know, they were making adaki, which was the local brew. And I was cooking dodo wat, which is the chicken with the stew. You got to know everybody.

[Assistant] Did they have any vegetables in terms of what we think of as vegetables?

[User] Well, we, um. Of course, guava and sometimes some papaya. Mango. But the vegetables, that's one thing that we would always try to. We always had a vegetable garden and we always encouraged the vegetables. They had things that they were able to incorporate into their injeras. So they loved actually the cabbage or they loved the carrot, and they'd mix it in with the stew, depending seasonally when they could do that.

[Assistant] So it would enhance the nutrition.

[User] Oh yes. And the beans, the lentils and the beans were very, very good.

[Assistant] So you maintained your own garden?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we, um. Of course, guava and sometimes some papaya. Mango. But the vegetables, that's one thing that we would always try to. We always had a vegetable garden and we always encouraged the vegetables. They had things that they were able to incorporate into their injeras. So they loved actually the cabbage or they loved the carrot, and they'd mix it in with the stew, depending seasonally when they could do that.

[Assistant] So it would enhance the nutrition.

[User] Oh yes. And the beans, the lentils and the beans were very, very good.

[Assistant] So you maintained your own garden?

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] And where did you get the seeds?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. And the beans, the lentils and the beans were very, very good.

[Assistant] So you maintained your own garden?

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] And where did you get the seeds?

[User] Well, we, our mothers sent them to us as a matter of fact. They did. Oh yes, they did. The mothers sent them to us.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had support from across the ocean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] And where did you get the seeds?

[User] Well, we, our mothers sent them to us as a matter of fact. They did. Oh yes, they did. The mothers sent them to us.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had support from across the ocean.

[User] We did. We did. Wonderful support. I wrote a letter. I kept a very detailed journal and I wrote a letter, you know, every week to the parents. And then I made them into big book when I. But they saved everything we sent them. They were totally, totally supportive and so proud of us. Yeah, so proud.

[Assistant] That is just great. So let's focus for a few minutes on the actual work, the teaching. How did you experience that? What was the school like? How many children in a classroom? What grade ranges were you involved with, you and John?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, when we first were there, we were middle school teachers and I taught all of the seventh and eighth graders, you know, English and then he taught them science. And it was, I will talk about it later. But when we returned to Ethiopia, the one thing all of our former students remembered was all of Mr. Garamendi's science experiments. Because they literally could relive every second of every one of his things. Yeah. And I tried to set up a library, so families sent books. But it was like in going through the old school after 50 years, it was like a mausoleum. I mean, they were just thick with dust. They treasured them so much. And so that's how I ended up building a computer lab so that it was interactive so that students could all use it.

But trying to get them the books and really teaching English as a second language so they could pass their exams and continue on. I also, I used music a lot in my teaching, and they loved that. I had taken my guitar all the way over and they could sing every verse of every song that I ever introduced to them. Whether it was Hang Down Your Head Tom Dooley, or, you know, When the Saints Go Marching In, they just loved verses and they would just sing out. And lots of times you'd have pouring rain on the tin roofs over the mud walls, and it would just be thundering. You couldn't even hear anything. And so I'd always get my guitar out and we'd all just sing and clap and dance and sing and clap and dance to get through all those times. So we had a wonderful relationship.

[Assistant] Did the students teach you any of their songs?

[User] Oh yes, and their dance. [sings in Amharic or Oromo]. Or they could do.

[Assistant] I wish this were in video so that listeners could see you.

[User] Oh, and they would dance about. [sings in Amharic or Oromo] I mean, they'd dance all around and we just had a ball together. We really had fun.

[Assistant] Right. That sounds great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, and their dance. [sings in Amharic or Oromo]. Or they could do.

[Assistant] I wish this were in video so that listeners could see you.

[User] Oh, and they would dance about. [sings in Amharic or Oromo] I mean, they'd dance all around and we just had a ball together. We really had fun.

[Assistant] Right. That sounds great.

[User] But they learned a lot. They were good students.

[Assistant] Very serious. How many students in a classroom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I just think that because we were not sheltered in our. We always felt safe out there. But physically from the elements were a different situation. When we would go out on our mule to, I was allowed to ride a mule. He was allowed to ride a horse. Women were not allowed to ride horses, so I have great pictures with me, my feet like dragging along the edge of the mule. But we would camp and there was a time that there was a green mamba that came into our tent, and they're really deadly.

[Assistant] This is a snake?

[User] Snakes. Snakes, yes, snakes. And then there was.

[Assistant] How big?

[User] Oh, they're long and skinny. Long, bright, bright green. And then the black mamba is even more dangerous. It's just like it's over before you even see it.

[Assistant] So where, what did you do? How did you? What was that situation, when did you discover it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Snakes. Snakes, yes, snakes. And then there was.

[Assistant] How big?

[User] Oh, they're long and skinny. Long, bright, bright green. And then the black mamba is even more dangerous. It's just like it's over before you even see it.

[Assistant] So where, what did you do? How did you? What was that situation, when did you discover it?

[User] Well, you just, you get out of the way. Well, you just get out of the way as fast as you can. Yeah. And just be glad you didn't step directly on him too. But there were times when, you know, you'd hear that. You'd be camping out and then you'd hear the hyenas or you'd, um.

[Assistant] And what's dangerous about a hyena?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you just, you get out of the way. Well, you just get out of the way as fast as you can. Yeah. And just be glad you didn't step directly on him too. But there were times when, you know, you'd hear that. You'd be camping out and then you'd hear the hyenas or you'd, um.

[Assistant] And what's dangerous about a hyena?

[User] Oh, I know the most dangerous thing. Yes. This is the story. We were down in, before we left for the Peace Corps. You really want me to tell the really dangerous things?

[Assistant] Yes!

[User] Before we left for the Peace Corps, there was a story in the San Francisco Chronicle. This is really sad because there was a Peace Corps volunteer that was eaten by a crocodile and it was down near Gambela. And we had gone down to Gambela along the Baro River in Poquot. And when we were there, the crocodiles, they will snatch children off of the shore or women when they're washing. And this had happened. There was a very aggressive crocodile in the river. And so there was an old rusty gun in the village and they had the dugout canoes that went up and down the river. And so they handed the Peace Corps man this gun and said, would you please go try to kill this crocodile? Because it's killing our children. And so we together we get in this dugout canoe and they row, they canoe up to this big sand spit that's out in the middle of the Baro River. And you know, of course, the communication isn't great because it's another language there. It's more the Anuak tribes. And so they let us off there and we were just sort of following directions and then they continued on up the river.

[Assistant] This is just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I know the most dangerous thing. Yes. This is the story. We were down in, before we left for the Peace Corps. You really want me to tell the really dangerous things?

[Assistant] Yes!

[User] Before we left for the Peace Corps, there was a story in the San Francisco Chronicle. This is really sad because there was a Peace Corps volunteer that was eaten by a crocodile and it was down near Gambela. And we had gone down to Gambela along the Baro River in Poquot. And when we were there, the crocodiles, they will snatch children off of the shore or women when they're washing. And this had happened. There was a very aggressive crocodile in the river. And so there was an old rusty gun in the village and they had the dugout canoes that went up and down the river. And so they handed the Peace Corps man this gun and said, would you please go try to kill this crocodile? Because it's killing our children. And so we together we get in this dugout canoe and they row, they canoe up to this big sand spit that's out in the middle of the Baro River. And you know, of course, the communication isn't great because it's another language there. It's more the Anuak tribes. And so they let us off there and we were just sort of following directions and then they continued on up the river.

[Assistant] This is just the two of you?

[User] Just the two of us, and it's dusk.

[Assistant] And the congressman with a gun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which you're not supposed to have as a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Right.

[User]
At all. So we're standing back to back on the sand spit because it's getting dark and we're going like, what are we doing here? Are they coming back for us? Well, coming up onto that spit was the biggest crocodile you have ever seen in your life. I mean, we are talking, oh, I wish I had a picture of it here. Huge. And he came up and he was so shocked to see us there, just as we were shocked to see him. And he opened up, you know, up on his legs and John shot. We're not sure what happened, but then the gun jammed. And so we thought, this is it. And but then he was so startled by the shot that he spun around like a motorboat and went off across that water just. I can still see that tail flipping around as he went the other direction. And then we had to stand there waiting for the canoe to come back.

And I told John at that time, I said, honey, if we can make it through this, we can make it through anything. We sort of have a code word, remember the crocodile? It's OK, we'll make it through this. So it was, uh, so that was a really life and death situation.

[Assistant] Indeed.

[User] Yeah, it was really something.

[Assistant] Yeah, indeed. Indeed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
At all. So we're standing back to back on the sand spit because it's getting dark and we're going like, what are we doing here? Are they coming back for us? Well, coming up onto that spit was the biggest crocodile you have ever seen in your life. I mean, we are talking, oh, I wish I had a picture of it here. Huge. And he came up and he was so shocked to see us there, just as we were shocked to see him. And he opened up, you know, up on his legs and John shot. We're not sure what happened, but then the gun jammed. And so we thought, this is it. And but then he was so startled by the shot that he spun around like a motorboat and went off across that water just. I can still see that tail flipping around as he went the other direction. And then we had to stand there waiting for the canoe to come back.

And I told John at that time, I said, honey, if we can make it through this, we can make it through anything. We sort of have a code word, remember the crocodile? It's OK, we'll make it through this. So it was, uh, so that was a really life and death situation.

[Assistant] Indeed.

[User] Yeah, it was really something.

[Assistant] Yeah, indeed. Indeed.

[User] Especially with the story before we had left, you know, so it made it all so real. That's why we knew how we were in danger, but we didn't do that again. We learned. And I really enforced that no gun rule to the volunteers when I was, once I was in charge. I was like, oh my goodness.

[Assistant] Just back. One other less dangerous situation, the hyenas. What might they have done if they had approached your campsite with just the two of you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was really something.

[Assistant] Yeah, indeed. Indeed.

[User] Especially with the story before we had left, you know, so it made it all so real. That's why we knew how we were in danger, but we didn't do that again. We learned. And I really enforced that no gun rule to the volunteers when I was, once I was in charge. I was like, oh my goodness.

[Assistant] Just back. One other less dangerous situation, the hyenas. What might they have done if they had approached your campsite with just the two of you there?

[User] Well, it just depends on how hungry they are too or what's going on. They, you know, in Addis Ababa, they had the hyena man who used to feed the hyenas all the time and they would come and they would snap and they would grab the meat and everything. And then they grabbed him one time. So it wasn't, I don't really know what they would have done. I don't know how you frighten them away, but it just was an at-risk situation. Yeah, like you're sleeping out there and you're going like, what are we doing out here? Cause they come around. Of course now we have, you know, on our ranch, we have a lot of coyotes and mountain lions and things like that here in California. So we're not really so worried about that.

[Assistant] Right. OK, let's think a little bit about the time that you are winding down the service, meaning the time is expiring. You've got, you know you're going to have to do a transition. What did you experience? Did you think then about possibly staying longer and what did you then decide to do in terms of after Peace Corps experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they're all in service. Of course, it's required to be at our Sunday dinner tables because John cooks every Sunday and everybody sits around this gigantic table that he built. And everybody, all the grandchildren, everybody shares and they hold up their hands and the children do. And grandma always asked, what did you do with these hands this week to serve? And they go around and they will say, I wiped some tears or I helped my teacher, whatever. But they all have to speak up to what they are doing to help this world. But our oldest was, um, she was born. Her name is Gannet. She was named after my best friend in Ethiopia. And my best friend Gannet named her daughter Patti, except she pronounced it potty.

[Assistant] Close enough.

[User] So that's, you know, and I think that is probably something you see with other returned volunteers. And then our son, he served in the Peace Corps in Paraguay with his wife, who's also a PhD in public health. And the two of them served in Peace Corps. And then I have a daughter who served in Honduras, who's also a family practice physician. And I have another daughter who served in Ecuador, who runs a women's health clinic. So four of my children have served, actually served in Peace Corps. And then the others serve in other ways. Mainly as teachers and educators working with difficult situations.

[Assistant] Right, right. So after you came back, you continued to do teaching in the Boston area.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And then your children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's, you know, and I think that is probably something you see with other returned volunteers. And then our son, he served in the Peace Corps in Paraguay with his wife, who's also a PhD in public health. And the two of them served in Peace Corps. And then I have a daughter who served in Honduras, who's also a family practice physician. And I have another daughter who served in Ecuador, who runs a women's health clinic. So four of my children have served, actually served in Peace Corps. And then the others serve in other ways. Mainly as teachers and educators working with difficult situations.

[Assistant] Right, right. So after you came back, you continued to do teaching in the Boston area.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And then your children?

[User] Yes. That school, Phillips Brooks School district, that was written up by Jonathan Kozol. That famous book. And I read that book when I was in my village and I requested that school and they were not going to give it to me. And I said, if you want me to teach, this is where I'm going to teach, and that's it, and I'm going to develop my own program. So it's a wonderful book.

[Assistant] It is a wonderful book. I remember reading it myself when I was in teacher education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] And then your children?

[User] Yes. That school, Phillips Brooks School district, that was written up by Jonathan Kozol. That famous book. And I read that book when I was in my village and I requested that school and they were not going to give it to me. And I said, if you want me to teach, this is where I'm going to teach, and that's it, and I'm going to develop my own program. So it's a wonderful book.

[Assistant] It is a wonderful book. I remember reading it myself when I was in teacher education.

[User] I just didn't know if I explained that.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. Right. So you taught when you came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That school, Phillips Brooks School district, that was written up by Jonathan Kozol. That famous book. And I read that book when I was in my village and I requested that school and they were not going to give it to me. And I said, if you want me to teach, this is where I'm going to teach, and that's it, and I'm going to develop my own program. So it's a wonderful book.

[Assistant] It is a wonderful book. I remember reading it myself when I was in teacher education.

[User] I just didn't know if I explained that.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. Right. So you taught when you came back?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you had, how many children do you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you had, how many children do you have?

[User] We have six. We had the first four very rapidly. And then we had one five years later and one five years after that. So we have 12 grandchildren.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yeah, we really are blessed.

[Assistant] Congratulations, you really are blessed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have six. We had the first four very rapidly. And then we had one five years later and one five years after that. So we have 12 grandchildren.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yeah, we really are blessed.

[Assistant] Congratulations, you really are blessed.

[User] And we live on a big cooperative ranch. Everybody said, how do you keep your children so, you know, they're all so international and they travel, but they all have real roots right there on the ranch that you have put together. And I said, well, they all have built homes there and we all run everything together. So to sustain it, make it sustainable. They have, you know, grass fed beef and they have, you know, sustainable gardens and an orchard and people. It's just like people come and go constantly. We have one daughter who just took her family around the world woofing [Worldwide Opportunities on Organic Farms], and that's working on all these different farms.

[Assistant] And that's what woofing means?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we really are blessed.

[Assistant] Congratulations, you really are blessed.

[User] And we live on a big cooperative ranch. Everybody said, how do you keep your children so, you know, they're all so international and they travel, but they all have real roots right there on the ranch that you have put together. And I said, well, they all have built homes there and we all run everything together. So to sustain it, make it sustainable. They have, you know, grass fed beef and they have, you know, sustainable gardens and an orchard and people. It's just like people come and go constantly. We have one daughter who just took her family around the world woofing [Worldwide Opportunities on Organic Farms], and that's working on all these different farms.

[Assistant] And that's what woofing means?

[User] That's what woofing means. It is the most wonderful program in the whole world.

[Assistant] Is it W-O-O-F?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we live on a big cooperative ranch. Everybody said, how do you keep your children so, you know, they're all so international and they travel, but they all have real roots right there on the ranch that you have put together. And I said, well, they all have built homes there and we all run everything together. So to sustain it, make it sustainable. They have, you know, grass fed beef and they have, you know, sustainable gardens and an orchard and people. It's just like people come and go constantly. We have one daughter who just took her family around the world woofing [Worldwide Opportunities on Organic Farms], and that's working on all these different farms.

[Assistant] And that's what woofing means?

[User] That's what woofing means. It is the most wonderful program in the whole world.

[Assistant] Is it W-O-O-F?

[User] Mm hmm. I-N-G. Woofing.

[Assistant] And it means working on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's what woofing means. It is the most wonderful program in the whole world.

[Assistant] Is it W-O-O-F?

[User] Mm hmm. I-N-G. Woofing.

[Assistant] And it means working on?

[User] Well, it's, um, you can google it up and you can connect with families all around the world that are offering their farms, that you can stay there and work on the farm with them for room and board. So they took an entire year with their children and did that. They did it really well. People were really lucky to have them because they're really good workers. They actually know how to farm and do these things. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's great. So tell us now about you personally in your professional life. You raise your, I'm assuming you did continue some, shall we say, work for pay, if you will. Or I mean, or some professional volunteering as your children were growing up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
To my right and John is on the other side. And he, and I just remember at the beginning of dinner, he put head beautiful hands. He put his hands on the table and it was like, I've held that hand before. I have had the pleasure of shaking his hand before, but now it's the President of the United States' hands as of 24 hours ago. Can we hold hands and say the blessing or what do we do? And so it was that kind of thing. And then right after dinner it was, let's explore the White House, and we haven't been down to the movie theater yet. Let's take the elevator. So we went down and there are the four big chairs in the front row and the four of us sat down and he turns to me. He said, do you think we could get some popcorn? You know, because we'd chosen to watch the movie Lorenzo's Oil, which is a really important movie. And within moments, this big silver bowl of warm, buttered popcorn arrives. And so it was just, that's what, it was so wonderful.

And Hillary loved the Peace Corps. There wasn't a moment that she traveled, that she didn't go and swear-in volunteers or pay attention to the volunteers. And every time I saw the president, every single time during his entire tenure in office, he always said, do you still, you still having fun at the Peace Corps? And I said, yes, I absolutely love it. That's true.

[Assistant] That is a wonderful story. Spending a night at the White House.

[User] It was like from mud hut. It hasn't been such a bad ride, I told my husband. It's OK. From our first night in Metu, Ethiopia, to Lincoln's bedroom, it's OK. We can stick it, we can stick it out a little longer, with the crocodile in the middle. I think we got it together.

[Assistant] You've got some bookends there.

[User] Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, there's so many stories to tell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was like from mud hut. It hasn't been such a bad ride, I told my husband. It's OK. From our first night in Metu, Ethiopia, to Lincoln's bedroom, it's OK. We can stick it, we can stick it out a little longer, with the crocodile in the middle. I think we got it together.

[Assistant] You've got some bookends there.

[User] Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, there's so many stories to tell.

[User] Those are the best.

[Assistant] Yeah, those are great stories. Those are great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's true.

[Assistant] That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, there's so many stories to tell.

[User] Those are the best.

[Assistant] Yeah, those are great stories. Those are great.

[User] Really fun.

[Assistant] Um, I think that we can kind of bring our conversation to a close. And as we do that, maybe you would like to reflect a little about the importance of that Peace Corps experience. Considering your personal background and your education, your opportunities in California, then that Peace Corps experience. And how did that impact your thinking and about the other choices you made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] The life of the Peace Corps.

[User] Thank you. It was so fun.

[Assistant] Thank you so much.

[User] It's Peace Corps. It's our life.

[Assistant] It is our lives.