[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't have anything in particular. I think it's an interesting program. I'd sure like to see the whole thing some time.

[Assistant] Well, it's a pretty big project so far. So there's a lot to see. I want to take the time to say thanks for coming in this afternoon and spending these few hours with us.

[User] Well, I enjoyed it. I haven't talked about this in ten years.

[Assistant] Well, we're glad you liked it.

[User] You know it's tough when you go back forty years and try to remember stuff, but I'm glad you guys are doing this. There's a lot of people that can really add to this thing. I'm sure you're getting them as time goes on.

[Assistant] Well, we're always happy to take suggestions for more people if there's anybody else that comes to mind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the thing to do.

[Assistant] It was the thing to do.

[User] 1967, didn't everybody want to join the Peace Corps? It really was. I didn't even give a second thought. It just was the thing to do. But there were a couple of things behind it. One of them, I went to Oklahoma State for my undergraduate.

[Assistant] So you're from Oklahoma?

[User] I'm from Ohio. I went out there to play football. So I was on a football scholarship at Oklahoma State and a senior on the team named Kirk Breed kind of took a liking to me as a freshman. It's kind of rare for a senior on the football team to pay any attention at all to a freshman. But Kirk, for some reason seemed to like me. And he was going into the Peace Corps. And he just flat out told me my freshman year said, I'm going to the Peace Corps and you are too. And I thought, OK. And that kind of stuck with me throughout my undergraduate years, and a number of other things happened along the way. But it was just a natural thing to, of course, I go into the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you study in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1967, didn't everybody want to join the Peace Corps? It really was. I didn't even give a second thought. It just was the thing to do. But there were a couple of things behind it. One of them, I went to Oklahoma State for my undergraduate.

[Assistant] So you're from Oklahoma?

[User] I'm from Ohio. I went out there to play football. So I was on a football scholarship at Oklahoma State and a senior on the team named Kirk Breed kind of took a liking to me as a freshman. It's kind of rare for a senior on the football team to pay any attention at all to a freshman. But Kirk, for some reason seemed to like me. And he was going into the Peace Corps. And he just flat out told me my freshman year said, I'm going to the Peace Corps and you are too. And I thought, OK. And that kind of stuck with me throughout my undergraduate years, and a number of other things happened along the way. But it was just a natural thing to, of course, I go into the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you study in college?

[User] Well, I was a communications major because I was on the football team and the only course I could pass was a speech course, and so I became a speech major.

[Assistant] I'm sure that's not exactly true, but it sounds good. And so what did, when you joined the Peace? So right after college, did you decide to join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm from Ohio. I went out there to play football. So I was on a football scholarship at Oklahoma State and a senior on the team named Kirk Breed kind of took a liking to me as a freshman. It's kind of rare for a senior on the football team to pay any attention at all to a freshman. But Kirk, for some reason seemed to like me. And he was going into the Peace Corps. And he just flat out told me my freshman year said, I'm going to the Peace Corps and you are too. And I thought, OK. And that kind of stuck with me throughout my undergraduate years, and a number of other things happened along the way. But it was just a natural thing to, of course, I go into the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you study in college?

[User] Well, I was a communications major because I was on the football team and the only course I could pass was a speech course, and so I became a speech major.

[Assistant] I'm sure that's not exactly true, but it sounds good. And so what did, when you joined the Peace? So right after college, did you decide to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Yeah, yeah. By my senior year, there were just no question I'm going to go to the Peace Corps. And so I applied. I was accepted into a program in Ethiopia, and then they changed it to Micronesia, and then they changed it to Colombia. And I learned a little bit geography in the process. Like all the rest of us, I got out a map and looked up these places to see where the heck they were and ended up in Colombia.

[Assistant] And what kind of a program was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a communications major because I was on the football team and the only course I could pass was a speech course, and so I became a speech major.

[Assistant] I'm sure that's not exactly true, but it sounds good. And so what did, when you joined the Peace? So right after college, did you decide to join the Peace Corps?

[User] Yeah, yeah. By my senior year, there were just no question I'm going to go to the Peace Corps. And so I applied. I was accepted into a program in Ethiopia, and then they changed it to Micronesia, and then they changed it to Colombia. And I learned a little bit geography in the process. Like all the rest of us, I got out a map and looked up these places to see where the heck they were and ended up in Colombia.

[Assistant] And what kind of a program was it?

[User] Well, it was a community development, which of course, as people in the Peace Corps know, that means you're going to drop you in a village and say, do good work, figure out what to do, and see what you can do. So I was on the coast of Colombia, the Caribbean coast.

[Assistant] Before we go into all of that, just let's talk a little bit about what was the reaction of your parents and your friends to all of us? Did this make sense to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a community development, which of course, as people in the Peace Corps know, that means you're going to drop you in a village and say, do good work, figure out what to do, and see what you can do. So I was on the coast of Colombia, the Caribbean coast.

[Assistant] Before we go into all of that, just let's talk a little bit about what was the reaction of your parents and your friends to all of us? Did this make sense to them?

[User] Most of my friends, I was part of the. I got hurt playing football. I couldn't play anymore, became part of the activist community, the free speech and the anti-war movement. And a bunch of us, there are at least 10 of us, of my classmates in the activist community who went into the Peace Corps. We all went in at the same time.

[Assistant] Anti-war protest.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So we just went into the Peace Corps and it just among all of us, you know, as we hung out together, we just kind of talked about where we were going to go and it just seemed to be the most normal thing in the world. Of course, we're going to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And your parents were fine with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of my friends, I was part of the. I got hurt playing football. I couldn't play anymore, became part of the activist community, the free speech and the anti-war movement. And a bunch of us, there are at least 10 of us, of my classmates in the activist community who went into the Peace Corps. We all went in at the same time.

[Assistant] Anti-war protest.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So we just went into the Peace Corps and it just among all of us, you know, as we hung out together, we just kind of talked about where we were going to go and it just seemed to be the most normal thing in the world. Of course, we're going to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And your parents were fine with us.

[User] They were fine with it. They kind of knew I was a little bit crazy and adventuresome. So my dad had a little bit of a hard time understanding, particularly when he visited me in Colombia, because he had come from extreme poverty. I mean, incredible poverty. He had been abandoned by his parents and had to survive on his own at a very early age and worked extremely hard, was an extraordinarily accomplished man. There are parks named after him and there's a bust of him on the campus at Ohio State, so he had just done extraordinary. And part of his reaction was I worked really hard so that you wouldn't have to live like this. And it was hard for him to understand why I would voluntarily live in poverty in poverty. But I think he also appreciated what I was doing and why I was doing it. So there was never any antipathy among us. We just kind of understood each other and it was fine.

[Assistant] So I don't know what training was like in 1967. So were you trained in the United States or were you trained in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So we just went into the Peace Corps and it just among all of us, you know, as we hung out together, we just kind of talked about where we were going to go and it just seemed to be the most normal thing in the world. Of course, we're going to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And your parents were fine with us.

[User] They were fine with it. They kind of knew I was a little bit crazy and adventuresome. So my dad had a little bit of a hard time understanding, particularly when he visited me in Colombia, because he had come from extreme poverty. I mean, incredible poverty. He had been abandoned by his parents and had to survive on his own at a very early age and worked extremely hard, was an extraordinarily accomplished man. There are parks named after him and there's a bust of him on the campus at Ohio State, so he had just done extraordinary. And part of his reaction was I worked really hard so that you wouldn't have to live like this. And it was hard for him to understand why I would voluntarily live in poverty in poverty. But I think he also appreciated what I was doing and why I was doing it. So there was never any antipathy among us. We just kind of understood each other and it was fine.

[Assistant] So I don't know what training was like in 1967. So were you trained in the United States or were you trained in Colombia?

[User] Both. We were part of a transition from the stateside training to overseas training, so we had the first half of our training here in the U.S. In fact, it was right here at George Washington University. But halfway through, we got on airplanes and flew down to Bogota and got the rest of our training in Colombia.

[Assistant] And what was the training in the United States like at GW?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Including the couple. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Fantastic. So the trainers were all former volunteers or were they Colombian?

[User] There were some Colombians and so on. And so of course, they were a little confused about what was going on. But Sam and the others, they knew and you know, they're the ones that caused the trouble in the first place, you know, by protesting this guy trying to kick Joe and Sarah out.

[Assistant] That's quite a training story.

[User] It's a wonderful training story. And Sam and I have told it in front of audiences 30 or 40 times.

[Assistant] Good. And how was the relationship with the director after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were some Colombians and so on. And so of course, they were a little confused about what was going on. But Sam and the others, they knew and you know, they're the ones that caused the trouble in the first place, you know, by protesting this guy trying to kick Joe and Sarah out.

[Assistant] That's quite a training story.

[User] It's a wonderful training story. And Sam and I have told it in front of audiences 30 or 40 times.

[Assistant] Good. And how was the relationship with the director after that?

[User] Well, he didn't get any more contracts to train Peace Corps volunteers, let's say that. I never saw him again, never wanted to see him again.

[Assistant] So this was Dr. Martin who was the problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a wonderful training story. And Sam and I have told it in front of audiences 30 or 40 times.

[Assistant] Good. And how was the relationship with the director after that?

[User] Well, he didn't get any more contracts to train Peace Corps volunteers, let's say that. I never saw him again, never wanted to see him again.

[Assistant] So this was Dr. Martin who was the problem.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I think everybody talked about him, recognized that that's what the problem was. And the Peace Corps country director Bill Dial knew it was a problem as well. So we got to know Bill very well, and he appreciated what we did.

[Assistant] Ok, so you got sworn in in Bogota.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he didn't get any more contracts to train Peace Corps volunteers, let's say that. I never saw him again, never wanted to see him again.

[Assistant] So this was Dr. Martin who was the problem.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And I think everybody talked about him, recognized that that's what the problem was. And the Peace Corps country director Bill Dial knew it was a problem as well. So we got to know Bill very well, and he appreciated what we did.

[Assistant] Ok, so you got sworn in in Bogota.

[User] Got sworn in. Bogota.

[Assistant] And then where were you? Let me ask, other than this whole episode, did you find the training to be helpful? Did it prepare you well for your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got sworn in. Bogota.

[Assistant] And then where were you? Let me ask, other than this whole episode, did you find the training to be helpful? Did it prepare you well for your job?

[User]
It did. Certainly, the language training was extremely valuable. I was terrible at languages. Really, really struggled with learning the Spanish. And Spanish is probably the easiest language to learn for Peace Corps volunteers. In spite of that, I had a hard time learning it. But another quick little story. Many people know the name Gretchen Handwerger, who was a giant in the Peace Corps leadership, a key figure at the World Bank later on in her life. And Gretchen was an observer at one of our training sessions when we were here at GW, and she saw that I was struggling with the Spanish and she asked to meet with me. And I thought, this is it, I'm going to get deselected.

But instead this great woman, and she really was a great, great woman, pulled me aside and said, you're trying too hard. You're trying too hard. She says, you'll get it, just relax and let it become a part of you. And I was so relieved that she didn't kick me out, and I took that to heart and ended up became becoming quite fluent in Spanish. But I've been eternally grateful and Gretchen and I stayed in touch over the years as well and just so grateful to her for that understanding. And rather than coming down hard on me for not learning the language, she helped me develop an attitude and a positive attitude that enabled me to learn the language. So I've spent my whole life reflecting on that and remembering that when I work, when I have employees who are struggling. I think back to that and say, that's the way I need to handle it.

[Assistant] That's really good. So training was good.

[User] Training was good.

[Assistant] You clearly bonded with your fellow volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It did. Certainly, the language training was extremely valuable. I was terrible at languages. Really, really struggled with learning the Spanish. And Spanish is probably the easiest language to learn for Peace Corps volunteers. In spite of that, I had a hard time learning it. But another quick little story. Many people know the name Gretchen Handwerger, who was a giant in the Peace Corps leadership, a key figure at the World Bank later on in her life. And Gretchen was an observer at one of our training sessions when we were here at GW, and she saw that I was struggling with the Spanish and she asked to meet with me. And I thought, this is it, I'm going to get deselected.

But instead this great woman, and she really was a great, great woman, pulled me aside and said, you're trying too hard. You're trying too hard. She says, you'll get it, just relax and let it become a part of you. And I was so relieved that she didn't kick me out, and I took that to heart and ended up became becoming quite fluent in Spanish. But I've been eternally grateful and Gretchen and I stayed in touch over the years as well and just so grateful to her for that understanding. And rather than coming down hard on me for not learning the language, she helped me develop an attitude and a positive attitude that enabled me to learn the language. So I've spent my whole life reflecting on that and remembering that when I work, when I have employees who are struggling. I think back to that and say, that's the way I need to handle it.

[Assistant] That's really good. So training was good.

[User] Training was good.

[Assistant] You clearly bonded with your fellow volunteers.

[User] We were close.

[Assistant] And how big a group was this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was good.

[Assistant] You clearly bonded with your fellow volunteers.

[User] We were close.

[Assistant] And how big a group was this?

[User] There were 45 of us in the training group.

[Assistant] All were in community development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were close.

[Assistant] And how big a group was this?

[User] There were 45 of us in the training group.

[Assistant] All were in community development?

[User] All of us were community development. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok. So then where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were 45 of us in the training group.

[Assistant] All were in community development?

[User] All of us were community development. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok. So then where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to a barrio on the outskirts of Cartagena. And I always hate to say Cartagena, because anybody that knows anything about Cartagena knows that it's paradise. It's this beautiful, beautiful tourist attraction on the Caribbean coast of Colombia. So people will hear Cartagena. They kind of roll their eyes, say, yeah, Peace Corps Cartagena, give me a break.

[Assistant] So this was a barrio in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of us were community development. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok. So then where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to a barrio on the outskirts of Cartagena. And I always hate to say Cartagena, because anybody that knows anything about Cartagena knows that it's paradise. It's this beautiful, beautiful tourist attraction on the Caribbean coast of Colombia. So people will hear Cartagena. They kind of roll their eyes, say, yeah, Peace Corps Cartagena, give me a break.

[Assistant] So this was a barrio in?

[User] On the outskirts of Cartagena, and it was what we called it an invasion barrio. It was squatters. So yes, Cartagena is a beautiful, lovely, lovely place. But the barrio was about as abject poverty as you can get. These were people from the countryside who had moved to the city, squatted on land that nobody had any use for. And they, it was a shanty town. There was one spigot for running water in the middle of the barrio, and that was it for water. We sort of had electricity because somebody had tapped into a power line that came by and it was spliced together going through the barrio. And of course, it would break all the time. And so, you know, maybe an hour or two a week, you would have electricity, but we didn't really have electricity. It was about as impoverished as you can get.

[Assistant] And you lived in the barrio?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was assigned to a barrio on the outskirts of Cartagena. And I always hate to say Cartagena, because anybody that knows anything about Cartagena knows that it's paradise. It's this beautiful, beautiful tourist attraction on the Caribbean coast of Colombia. So people will hear Cartagena. They kind of roll their eyes, say, yeah, Peace Corps Cartagena, give me a break.

[Assistant] So this was a barrio in?

[User] On the outskirts of Cartagena, and it was what we called it an invasion barrio. It was squatters. So yes, Cartagena is a beautiful, lovely, lovely place. But the barrio was about as abject poverty as you can get. These were people from the countryside who had moved to the city, squatted on land that nobody had any use for. And they, it was a shanty town. There was one spigot for running water in the middle of the barrio, and that was it for water. We sort of had electricity because somebody had tapped into a power line that came by and it was spliced together going through the barrio. And of course, it would break all the time. And so, you know, maybe an hour or two a week, you would have electricity, but we didn't really have electricity. It was about as impoverished as you can get.

[Assistant] And you lived in the barrio?

[User] Lived in the barrio.

[Assistant] How did you, um, get a place to live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the outskirts of Cartagena, and it was what we called it an invasion barrio. It was squatters. So yes, Cartagena is a beautiful, lovely, lovely place. But the barrio was about as abject poverty as you can get. These were people from the countryside who had moved to the city, squatted on land that nobody had any use for. And they, it was a shanty town. There was one spigot for running water in the middle of the barrio, and that was it for water. We sort of had electricity because somebody had tapped into a power line that came by and it was spliced together going through the barrio. And of course, it would break all the time. And so, you know, maybe an hour or two a week, you would have electricity, but we didn't really have electricity. It was about as impoverished as you can get.

[Assistant] And you lived in the barrio?

[User] Lived in the barrio.

[Assistant] How did you, um, get a place to live?

[User] Just asked around and there was a place and for six dollars a month, I paid my rent and had my, I had the nicest place in town at six dollars a month.

[Assistant] And you didn't have electricity either or water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lived in the barrio.

[Assistant] How did you, um, get a place to live?

[User] Just asked around and there was a place and for six dollars a month, I paid my rent and had my, I had the nicest place in town at six dollars a month.

[Assistant] And you didn't have electricity either or water?

[User] No. In fact, for water, the kids in the barrio, who were probably seven or eight years old, would pound on my door every morning when the sun came up. And one of them, in particular, his name was Miguel, and I would love to find Miguel again, but he would pound on my door, say Carlos Carlos! Because they called me Carlos, which is the Spanish, of course, for Charles. Carlos, Carlos, agua, agua, agua! Charles, Charles, Chic, Chic, water! And I had a 10-gallon tank. And they would take it up to the water spigot, and he'd wait for hours in line to get water. So instead of me having to wait for the water, they would get the water for me and bring it back.

[Assistant] And you paid them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just asked around and there was a place and for six dollars a month, I paid my rent and had my, I had the nicest place in town at six dollars a month.

[Assistant] And you didn't have electricity either or water?

[User] No. In fact, for water, the kids in the barrio, who were probably seven or eight years old, would pound on my door every morning when the sun came up. And one of them, in particular, his name was Miguel, and I would love to find Miguel again, but he would pound on my door, say Carlos Carlos! Because they called me Carlos, which is the Spanish, of course, for Charles. Carlos, Carlos, agua, agua, agua! Charles, Charles, Chic, Chic, water! And I had a 10-gallon tank. And they would take it up to the water spigot, and he'd wait for hours in line to get water. So instead of me having to wait for the water, they would get the water for me and bring it back.

[Assistant] And you paid them?

[User] And I'd pay them a few pesos, which was just a few cents, but they were thrilled to get it. And then I would put it up on the roof of where I was and let it heat up in the sun and siphon water out of it. And I'd take a nice warm shower.

[Assistant] Yes, I know that well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. In fact, for water, the kids in the barrio, who were probably seven or eight years old, would pound on my door every morning when the sun came up. And one of them, in particular, his name was Miguel, and I would love to find Miguel again, but he would pound on my door, say Carlos Carlos! Because they called me Carlos, which is the Spanish, of course, for Charles. Carlos, Carlos, agua, agua, agua! Charles, Charles, Chic, Chic, water! And I had a 10-gallon tank. And they would take it up to the water spigot, and he'd wait for hours in line to get water. So instead of me having to wait for the water, they would get the water for me and bring it back.

[Assistant] And you paid them?

[User] And I'd pay them a few pesos, which was just a few cents, but they were thrilled to get it. And then I would put it up on the roof of where I was and let it heat up in the sun and siphon water out of it. And I'd take a nice warm shower.

[Assistant] Yes, I know that well.

[User] Life was good.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the barrio?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One room, but large enough to have four essentially breakouts in it. So yes, it was a one room school, but big enough for four classes of about 20 to 25 in the corners of four corners of this rectangular building.

[Assistant] And what was your role? Did you?

[User] I just kind of supervised.

[Assistant] You supervised the building?

[User] I was kind of a cheerleader, you know, say, yeah, keep it up.

[Assistant] But you didn't help build the school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just kind of supervised.

[Assistant] You supervised the building?

[User] I was kind of a cheerleader, you know, say, yeah, keep it up.

[Assistant] But you didn't help build the school.

[User] Well, yeah, yeah, I did a little bit. But you know, they didn't need my muscle power to build the school. They could do that. But my job was to kind of keep them on track and we helped design. We got somebody to kind of lay out the designs. And so we knew.

[Assistant] And did the Department of Education then provided a teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was kind of a cheerleader, you know, say, yeah, keep it up.

[Assistant] But you didn't help build the school.

[User] Well, yeah, yeah, I did a little bit. But you know, they didn't need my muscle power to build the school. They could do that. But my job was to kind of keep them on track and we helped design. We got somebody to kind of lay out the designs. And so we knew.

[Assistant] And did the Department of Education then provided a teacher?

[User] They did, and I was so proud the day that, with the chairman of the junta de acción companal and I walked into the Secretary of Education for the Departamento de Bolivar. And when I first talked with him about it, he just said, you know, they'll never do it. He kind of dismissed it as fanciful, and I just was so proud. We walked in and said, we have a school, come out and take a look.

[Assistant] How long did it take to build this school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yeah, yeah, I did a little bit. But you know, they didn't need my muscle power to build the school. They could do that. But my job was to kind of keep them on track and we helped design. We got somebody to kind of lay out the designs. And so we knew.

[Assistant] And did the Department of Education then provided a teacher?

[User] They did, and I was so proud the day that, with the chairman of the junta de acción companal and I walked into the Secretary of Education for the Departamento de Bolivar. And when I first talked with him about it, he just said, you know, they'll never do it. He kind of dismissed it as fanciful, and I just was so proud. We walked in and said, we have a school, come out and take a look.

[Assistant] How long did it take to build this school?

[User] It took well over a year.

[Assistant] Were there other volunteers in the same barrio, or were you the only?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did, and I was so proud the day that, with the chairman of the junta de acción companal and I walked into the Secretary of Education for the Departamento de Bolivar. And when I first talked with him about it, he just said, you know, they'll never do it. He kind of dismissed it as fanciful, and I just was so proud. We walked in and said, we have a school, come out and take a look.

[Assistant] How long did it take to build this school?

[User] It took well over a year.

[Assistant] Were there other volunteers in the same barrio, or were you the only?

[User] I was the only one in that barrio.

[Assistant] That's great. So that became your project, the school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took well over a year.

[Assistant] Were there other volunteers in the same barrio, or were you the only?

[User] I was the only one in that barrio.

[Assistant] That's great. So that became your project, the school.

[User]
That was one of two major projects. We did some literacy stuff and other health projects and so on. The Good Ship Hope came to Cartagena while I was there, and so I arranged for the nurses from the ship Hope to come out and do lectures for the people in the barrio. But they were eking out a living as fishermen using dugout canoes, and we were literally right on the water, right on the bay.

And they would paddle their dugout canoes and they would go out and catch fish. But they were using dynamite to catch the fish, which is not a good practice. And it was destroying the fish population and it would destroy the fishermen. If a fisherman had lost an arm, they were called a mojo. That was the term for somebody who lost a limb from the dynamite exploding before they got rid of it. And about half of the fishermen in the barrio were mojos. And I'll never forget paddling dugout canoes out with a guy with only one arm, paddling the canoe with one arm and holding the dynamite in his remaining arm and lighting the match with his teeth and throwing it in.

[Assistant] What possessed them to use dynamite?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the only one in that barrio.

[Assistant] That's great. So that became your project, the school.

[User]
That was one of two major projects. We did some literacy stuff and other health projects and so on. The Good Ship Hope came to Cartagena while I was there, and so I arranged for the nurses from the ship Hope to come out and do lectures for the people in the barrio. But they were eking out a living as fishermen using dugout canoes, and we were literally right on the water, right on the bay.

And they would paddle their dugout canoes and they would go out and catch fish. But they were using dynamite to catch the fish, which is not a good practice. And it was destroying the fish population and it would destroy the fishermen. If a fisherman had lost an arm, they were called a mojo. That was the term for somebody who lost a limb from the dynamite exploding before they got rid of it. And about half of the fishermen in the barrio were mojos. And I'll never forget paddling dugout canoes out with a guy with only one arm, paddling the canoe with one arm and holding the dynamite in his remaining arm and lighting the match with his teeth and throwing it in.

[Assistant] What possessed them to use dynamite?

[User] Well, it works. It works.

[Assistant] But I mean, who came up with this idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
That was one of two major projects. We did some literacy stuff and other health projects and so on. The Good Ship Hope came to Cartagena while I was there, and so I arranged for the nurses from the ship Hope to come out and do lectures for the people in the barrio. But they were eking out a living as fishermen using dugout canoes, and we were literally right on the water, right on the bay.

And they would paddle their dugout canoes and they would go out and catch fish. But they were using dynamite to catch the fish, which is not a good practice. And it was destroying the fish population and it would destroy the fishermen. If a fisherman had lost an arm, they were called a mojo. That was the term for somebody who lost a limb from the dynamite exploding before they got rid of it. And about half of the fishermen in the barrio were mojos. And I'll never forget paddling dugout canoes out with a guy with only one arm, paddling the canoe with one arm and holding the dynamite in his remaining arm and lighting the match with his teeth and throwing it in.

[Assistant] What possessed them to use dynamite?

[User] Well, it works. It works.

[Assistant] But I mean, who came up with this idea?

[User] No idea, but you know, it's done in developing countries all over the world. So, you know, somehow word got out that it's a way to do it and it works. You know, you find a school of fish, throw a stick of dynamite in, it goes off and the concussion.

[Assistant] There are all these dead fish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it works. It works.

[Assistant] But I mean, who came up with this idea?

[User] No idea, but you know, it's done in developing countries all over the world. So, you know, somehow word got out that it's a way to do it and it works. You know, you find a school of fish, throw a stick of dynamite in, it goes off and the concussion.

[Assistant] There are all these dead fish.

[User] Got a whole bunch of fish, scoop them up and so you got them. So but you know, I was watching that and saying, you know, this isn't good. We've got a whole bunch of mojos and the fish population is declining rapidly. And they were saying, where are all the fish? Well, they're dead because you killed them. So let's find another way to do this without killing off and particularly kill off the small fish. And they don't even scoop up the small ones. They scoop up the big ones and small ones are all gone. So this is not sustainable.

[Assistant] So what did you come up with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No idea, but you know, it's done in developing countries all over the world. So, you know, somehow word got out that it's a way to do it and it works. You know, you find a school of fish, throw a stick of dynamite in, it goes off and the concussion.

[Assistant] There are all these dead fish.

[User] Got a whole bunch of fish, scoop them up and so you got them. So but you know, I was watching that and saying, you know, this isn't good. We've got a whole bunch of mojos and the fish population is declining rapidly. And they were saying, where are all the fish? Well, they're dead because you killed them. So let's find another way to do this without killing off and particularly kill off the small fish. And they don't even scoop up the small ones. They scoop up the big ones and small ones are all gone. So this is not sustainable.

[Assistant] So what did you come up with?

[User] So we organized them into a fishing co-op to give them legal status and so they could get loans from the Agrario, the agricultural bank, gave them loans so that they could motors for the boats and get nets, to give them a viable alternative so they could catch virtually as many fish using more appropriate techniques than using the dynamite.

[Assistant] And that worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got a whole bunch of fish, scoop them up and so you got them. So but you know, I was watching that and saying, you know, this isn't good. We've got a whole bunch of mojos and the fish population is declining rapidly. And they were saying, where are all the fish? Well, they're dead because you killed them. So let's find another way to do this without killing off and particularly kill off the small fish. And they don't even scoop up the small ones. They scoop up the big ones and small ones are all gone. So this is not sustainable.

[Assistant] So what did you come up with?

[User] So we organized them into a fishing co-op to give them legal status and so they could get loans from the Agrario, the agricultural bank, gave them loans so that they could motors for the boats and get nets, to give them a viable alternative so they could catch virtually as many fish using more appropriate techniques than using the dynamite.

[Assistant] And that worked?

[User] It worked. I can't say we ended dynamite fishing altogether, but dramatically reduced it. And ended up taking that to five fishing villages right along the coast. So I remained based in Albordos, but went to these other villages to help organize a larger co-op and expand the concept of using the boats with motors and nets to reduce anyway, the amount of dynamite fishing.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you really did good work in this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we organized them into a fishing co-op to give them legal status and so they could get loans from the Agrario, the agricultural bank, gave them loans so that they could motors for the boats and get nets, to give them a viable alternative so they could catch virtually as many fish using more appropriate techniques than using the dynamite.

[Assistant] And that worked?

[User] It worked. I can't say we ended dynamite fishing altogether, but dramatically reduced it. And ended up taking that to five fishing villages right along the coast. So I remained based in Albordos, but went to these other villages to help organize a larger co-op and expand the concept of using the boats with motors and nets to reduce anyway, the amount of dynamite fishing.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like you really did good work in this.

[User] We did some good stuff. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it.

[Assistant] That's excellent. What did you do in your spare time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did some good stuff. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of it.

[Assistant] That's excellent. What did you do in your spare time?

[User] Well, I had a girlfriend.

[Assistant] Peace Corps?

[User] No, Colombian, who happened to be a national beauty queen. There was a hit song in Colombia called Se Ama Martinez Larena Nelargorone. And that's the cotton queen for Colombia, named Martinez, that was my girlfriend and we got married.

[Assistant] You got married.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had a girlfriend.

[Assistant] Peace Corps?

[User] No, Colombian, who happened to be a national beauty queen. There was a hit song in Colombia called Se Ama Martinez Larena Nelargorone. And that's the cotton queen for Colombia, named Martinez, that was my girlfriend and we got married.

[Assistant] You got married.

[User] Yeah, near the end of my service, we got married. And it didn't last, lasted seven years.

[Assistant] Did she come back to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Colombian, who happened to be a national beauty queen. There was a hit song in Colombia called Se Ama Martinez Larena Nelargorone. And that's the cotton queen for Colombia, named Martinez, that was my girlfriend and we got married.

[Assistant] You got married.

[User] Yeah, near the end of my service, we got married. And it didn't last, lasted seven years.

[Assistant] Did she come back to the U.S.?

[User] She came back to the U.S. and I won't go into a number of reasons it didn't work out. But she's still in the U.S. and we have a son from that marriage, who is a great guy.

[Assistant] That's excellent. So you had a girlfriend. Did you do anything with other Peace Corps volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, near the end of my service, we got married. And it didn't last, lasted seven years.

[Assistant] Did she come back to the U.S.?

[User] She came back to the U.S. and I won't go into a number of reasons it didn't work out. But she's still in the U.S. and we have a son from that marriage, who is a great guy.

[Assistant] That's excellent. So you had a girlfriend. Did you do anything with other Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] I did. We would get together. We'd hang out and just party together and have a good time and we'd would travel around the country too.

[Assistant] Yeah, I was going to ask. So you traveled around the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She came back to the U.S. and I won't go into a number of reasons it didn't work out. But she's still in the U.S. and we have a son from that marriage, who is a great guy.

[Assistant] That's excellent. So you had a girlfriend. Did you do anything with other Peace Corps volunteers?

[User] I did. We would get together. We'd hang out and just party together and have a good time and we'd would travel around the country too.

[Assistant] Yeah, I was going to ask. So you traveled around the country.

[User] I never got out of the country. I would love to have, but I traveled around Colombia. Didn't get as far south as I would like to. I really wanted to get down to Leticia, where the Amazon River just barely touches Colombia. Really wanted to get down there, but just never was able to make it down there. But did get up to Riohacha, where there's this desert or fascinating culture in Riohacha. Got to Bogota, Medellin and you would stay with volunteers wherever you go. You certainly wouldn't want to pay for a place to stay.

[Assistant] No, not at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. We would get together. We'd hang out and just party together and have a good time and we'd would travel around the country too.

[Assistant] Yeah, I was going to ask. So you traveled around the country.

[User] I never got out of the country. I would love to have, but I traveled around Colombia. Didn't get as far south as I would like to. I really wanted to get down to Leticia, where the Amazon River just barely touches Colombia. Really wanted to get down there, but just never was able to make it down there. But did get up to Riohacha, where there's this desert or fascinating culture in Riohacha. Got to Bogota, Medellin and you would stay with volunteers wherever you go. You certainly wouldn't want to pay for a place to stay.

[Assistant] No, not at all.

[User] You know, you'd stay with volunteers wherever you went.

[Assistant] And so this was a really exciting opportunity for you to organize things. What did you do after Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never got out of the country. I would love to have, but I traveled around Colombia. Didn't get as far south as I would like to. I really wanted to get down to Leticia, where the Amazon River just barely touches Colombia. Really wanted to get down there, but just never was able to make it down there. But did get up to Riohacha, where there's this desert or fascinating culture in Riohacha. Got to Bogota, Medellin and you would stay with volunteers wherever you go. You certainly wouldn't want to pay for a place to stay.

[Assistant] No, not at all.

[User] You know, you'd stay with volunteers wherever you went.

[Assistant] And so this was a really exciting opportunity for you to organize things. What did you do after Peace Corps?

[User] I organized things.

[Assistant] Organized things. Did you have any thought of staying longer? Some people extended.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I organized things.

[Assistant] Organized things. Did you have any thought of staying longer? Some people extended.

[User] Yeah, I did. It occurred to me, but I had a very strong relationship with a faculty member at Oklahoma State, and he and I corresponded the whole time I was there and he really wanted me to come back and study with him, and we were kind of planning a partnership for our careers. He had political interest. He was going to run for Congress. So we were going to set up a consulting firm together, and he would run for Congress and I would manage his campaign. And if he won, I would come to Washington as his chief of staff and we were going to change the world. And so I came back and was working on that with Dale [Stockton]. And he was murdered.

[Assistant] That's shocking.

[User] It's shocking, to say the least. A random killing.

[Assistant] Just a random killing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's shocking, to say the least. A random killing.

[Assistant] Just a random killing.

[User] We were on a trip together. We'd set up our consulting firm. I was still going to school working on a master's degree. He was the debate team coach, the oratory coach, taught speech communications. And the debate team had a tournament in Dallas, Texas, and they all went down with the team. But we had a consulting contract with the Americans for Indian Opportunity. And I don't know if any of you remember Senator Fred Harris.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Fred Harris and his wife, LaDonna, set up this program called Americans for Indian Opportunity, and we were good friends with Fred and LaDonna, and we had a contract with them to do some training for Native Americans in Arizona near Phoenix. So I went to Phoenix to get everything set up for this project we were going to do. Going to meet with Fred and LaDonna there. Dale went to Dallas to give a lecture and to be with his debate team and in the hotel where he was staying in Dallas, he was murdered. And I was at the airport to pick him up. And I was paged and told he will not be arriving and you need to get back to Oklahoma.

[Assistant] That's just shocking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were on a trip together. We'd set up our consulting firm. I was still going to school working on a master's degree. He was the debate team coach, the oratory coach, taught speech communications. And the debate team had a tournament in Dallas, Texas, and they all went down with the team. But we had a consulting contract with the Americans for Indian Opportunity. And I don't know if any of you remember Senator Fred Harris.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Fred Harris and his wife, LaDonna, set up this program called Americans for Indian Opportunity, and we were good friends with Fred and LaDonna, and we had a contract with them to do some training for Native Americans in Arizona near Phoenix. So I went to Phoenix to get everything set up for this project we were going to do. Going to meet with Fred and LaDonna there. Dale went to Dallas to give a lecture and to be with his debate team and in the hotel where he was staying in Dallas, he was murdered. And I was at the airport to pick him up. And I was paged and told he will not be arriving and you need to get back to Oklahoma.

[Assistant] That's just shocking.

[User] Shocking. And in many ways, Dale was just a tremendous inspiration in my life, and I've kind of lived out my life wanting to fulfill his values and his dream of what could be done to make the world a better place.

[Assistant] It's sad. So then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fred Harris and his wife, LaDonna, set up this program called Americans for Indian Opportunity, and we were good friends with Fred and LaDonna, and we had a contract with them to do some training for Native Americans in Arizona near Phoenix. So I went to Phoenix to get everything set up for this project we were going to do. Going to meet with Fred and LaDonna there. Dale went to Dallas to give a lecture and to be with his debate team and in the hotel where he was staying in Dallas, he was murdered. And I was at the airport to pick him up. And I was paged and told he will not be arriving and you need to get back to Oklahoma.

[Assistant] That's just shocking.

[User] Shocking. And in many ways, Dale was just a tremendous inspiration in my life, and I've kind of lived out my life wanting to fulfill his values and his dream of what could be done to make the world a better place.

[Assistant] It's sad. So then what happened?

[User] So they had me teach his courses for the rest of the term, and I did the best I could, which was pathetic. You know, obviously very emotional and just, you know, fulfilled the obligations, and I just couldn't finish my master's degree, you know, without Dale. There was just seemed to be no point to it. So I got a job in El Dorado, Kansas, running a community action agency, or a poverty program, doing community organizing. So I did that for a few years and then kind of moved on with the career.

[Assistant] So your career was in community organizing based on your Peace Corps experience, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shocking. And in many ways, Dale was just a tremendous inspiration in my life, and I've kind of lived out my life wanting to fulfill his values and his dream of what could be done to make the world a better place.

[Assistant] It's sad. So then what happened?

[User] So they had me teach his courses for the rest of the term, and I did the best I could, which was pathetic. You know, obviously very emotional and just, you know, fulfilled the obligations, and I just couldn't finish my master's degree, you know, without Dale. There was just seemed to be no point to it. So I got a job in El Dorado, Kansas, running a community action agency, or a poverty program, doing community organizing. So I did that for a few years and then kind of moved on with the career.

[Assistant] So your career was in community organizing based on your Peace Corps experience, do you think?

[User] Absolutely. And everything I've done since then, I've done it in a whole range of different arenas in the last 20 years or so has been, you know, here in Washington and doing work with the National Peace Corps Association, we'll get into that, and some other organizing types of things. But everything I've done has really been in a way, an organizing sort of thing. I got involved in the arts, a great fan of good music and museums and so on. So I ran two local arts councils, which was organizing the arts community, became the founding director of the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies, now known as Americans for the Arts, which is well known on National Public Radio. You hear Americans for the Arts every day. I was the founding director of that organization, still involved with them there. The director, Bob Lynch, is a dear friend and I still connect with that community. But I'm the guy that kind of helped get them organized and that's all based on Peace Corps training and Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] So this is all Saul Alinsky.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they had me teach his courses for the rest of the term, and I did the best I could, which was pathetic. You know, obviously very emotional and just, you know, fulfilled the obligations, and I just couldn't finish my master's degree, you know, without Dale. There was just seemed to be no point to it. So I got a job in El Dorado, Kansas, running a community action agency, or a poverty program, doing community organizing. So I did that for a few years and then kind of moved on with the career.

[Assistant] So your career was in community organizing based on your Peace Corps experience, do you think?

[User] Absolutely. And everything I've done since then, I've done it in a whole range of different arenas in the last 20 years or so has been, you know, here in Washington and doing work with the National Peace Corps Association, we'll get into that, and some other organizing types of things. But everything I've done has really been in a way, an organizing sort of thing. I got involved in the arts, a great fan of good music and museums and so on. So I ran two local arts councils, which was organizing the arts community, became the founding director of the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies, now known as Americans for the Arts, which is well known on National Public Radio. You hear Americans for the Arts every day. I was the founding director of that organization, still involved with them there. The director, Bob Lynch, is a dear friend and I still connect with that community. But I'm the guy that kind of helped get them organized and that's all based on Peace Corps training and Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] So this is all Saul Alinsky.

[User] Well, we got to be careful where you use that name. Subversive.

[Assistant] But that's where it started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. And everything I've done since then, I've done it in a whole range of different arenas in the last 20 years or so has been, you know, here in Washington and doing work with the National Peace Corps Association, we'll get into that, and some other organizing types of things. But everything I've done has really been in a way, an organizing sort of thing. I got involved in the arts, a great fan of good music and museums and so on. So I ran two local arts councils, which was organizing the arts community, became the founding director of the National Assembly of Local Arts Agencies, now known as Americans for the Arts, which is well known on National Public Radio. You hear Americans for the Arts every day. I was the founding director of that organization, still involved with them there. The director, Bob Lynch, is a dear friend and I still connect with that community. But I'm the guy that kind of helped get them organized and that's all based on Peace Corps training and Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] So this is all Saul Alinsky.

[User] Well, we got to be careful where you use that name. Subversive.

[Assistant] But that's where it started.

[User] That's where it started. Yeah. And with Sam Farr.

[Assistant] And did you work with Sam Farr afterwards or you were just friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we got to be careful where you use that name. Subversive.

[Assistant] But that's where it started.

[User] That's where it started. Yeah. And with Sam Farr.

[Assistant] And did you work with Sam Farr afterwards or you were just friends?

[User] Yes. Well, friends. But you know, I ended up on the Hill for a couple of years. And so with John Garamendi, and still very close to John. But even while I was working on the Hill, I was as close, if not closer to Sam. You know, I spent the day working with John and then I'd swing by Sam's office. We'd go to dinner together.

[Assistant] So I know you were director of the National Peace Corps Association. How did you, were you the founding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
You go and you listen and you find out what the people there say needs to be done. So we mobilized a team of former Peace Corps volunteers, RPCVs, to go to Rwanda and to listen, listen, listen, listen and come back with a set of ideas and concepts of things that could be done.

And I'll never forget the day they got off the plane and we went to the State Department and said, here's what we learned, and they were just kind of astonished. Nobody had ever listened to anybody from Rwanda before. Said, well, that makes sense. So we mobilized a team to help build safety, security and stability. Among other things, they needed monitors just in the villages with communication capability. So if things were to flare up again, there was a way of communicating and bringing in support to help make it happen. They also needed to work with the women. There were just a whole lot of women who had been left without their spouses and absolutely destituted, and so we needed to provide training for them and to help them find a way to become self-sufficient.

[Assistant] So were you a U.S. AID contractor then?

[User] We ended up, we had a USAID contractor through OTI, through this unique new agency that Rick had set up. So that's what we did. And they basically, we would do things and I would send an invoice to Rick and he would send me a check.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So based on that, then we thought, well, this this concept has merit. And then we started building other programs, and so we created what we call the, uh, what did we call it? The emergency response network. Yeah. Emergency Response Network through the NPCA. And when Mark Gearan became director of the Peace Corps, he found out about this program and he was impressed. And he said, you know, I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing, he said, but you know, the Peace Corps itself should do this kind of thing. And of course, we struggled to have enough money to be able to do very much of anything with it. But so.

[Assistant] So Mark took it into Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We ended up, we had a USAID contractor through OTI, through this unique new agency that Rick had set up. So that's what we did. And they basically, we would do things and I would send an invoice to Rick and he would send me a check.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So based on that, then we thought, well, this this concept has merit. And then we started building other programs, and so we created what we call the, uh, what did we call it? The emergency response network. Yeah. Emergency Response Network through the NPCA. And when Mark Gearan became director of the Peace Corps, he found out about this program and he was impressed. And he said, you know, I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing, he said, but you know, the Peace Corps itself should do this kind of thing. And of course, we struggled to have enough money to be able to do very much of anything with it. But so.

[Assistant] So Mark took it into Peace Corps?

[User] He took it into Peace Corps and it is now called Peace Corps Response. So he asked my permission. He said, would it be OK with you if we were to adopt this program? And I knew if they did.

[Assistant] They had funds for sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So based on that, then we thought, well, this this concept has merit. And then we started building other programs, and so we created what we call the, uh, what did we call it? The emergency response network. Yeah. Emergency Response Network through the NPCA. And when Mark Gearan became director of the Peace Corps, he found out about this program and he was impressed. And he said, you know, I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing, he said, but you know, the Peace Corps itself should do this kind of thing. And of course, we struggled to have enough money to be able to do very much of anything with it. But so.

[Assistant] So Mark took it into Peace Corps?

[User] He took it into Peace Corps and it is now called Peace Corps Response. So he asked my permission. He said, would it be OK with you if we were to adopt this program? And I knew if they did.

[Assistant] They had funds for sure.

[User] Yeah, and it would overwhelm what we were doing and there would be no reason or way for us to sustain it. But the idea is to get the job done. If they can do more than we can do, by all means have at it. And so they took it over and it's now Peace Corps Response, which is.

[Assistant] Lots of people have joined that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He took it into Peace Corps and it is now called Peace Corps Response. So he asked my permission. He said, would it be OK with you if we were to adopt this program? And I knew if they did.

[Assistant] They had funds for sure.

[User] Yeah, and it would overwhelm what we were doing and there would be no reason or way for us to sustain it. But the idea is to get the job done. If they can do more than we can do, by all means have at it. And so they took it over and it's now Peace Corps Response, which is.

[Assistant] Lots of people have joined that.

[User] Lots of people in it. It's doing really, really good work all over the world. So but that's the origin of Peace Corps Response.

[Assistant] So when did the, I forgot what it was called at the beginning. National Council of Returned Volunteers? When did that become National Peace Corps Association?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Exactly, because Peace Corps owns the name and the emblem. Yeah. So you can't just go out on your own and do it. Now people do. And a Peace Corps is not going to be a bad ass and go out and put people in jail for using it. But if somebody were to misuse it, and I'm glad they do. There are some people who served in the Peace Corps who don't like the Peace Corps and would be perfectly happy. I know some of these people would be perfectly happy to go out there and tarnish the name of the Peace Corps and create an organization that would tarnish and use the Peace Corps name and tarnish the reputation of the Peace Corps. And I want the Peace Corps to be able to keep that from happening.

[Assistant] No, that makes sense. That makes sense. So given the state of the world now?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] With conflicts all over and conflict starting and people not listening to each other. What do you see as the role of NPCA or Peace Corps volunteers in all of this?

[User] I see a fundamental and central role for the NPCA and the Peace Corps community in all of this. As you probably know, after I left the NPCA, we formed a team of RPCVs to get involved in the Ethiopia Eritrea border war, and we ended up playing a central role in bringing end to that war. In fact, Meles Zenawi, the prime minister of Ethiopia, sent us a letter after it was over saying we created the spirit of the momentum that made the peace agreement possible. That was a group of RPCVs that did that. We met regularly with the heads of state of the two countries and help get them to the point where they were willing to agree to sign an agreement and bring an end to the war. We were invited to Algiers for the Peace Corps, or for the peace treaty signing ceremony. We met at great length with both heads of state right after that signing ceremony. Kofi Annan was there, Madeleine Albright was there, and they wanted to meet with us.

[Assistant] That's great. And how did you do that? This was after you left NPCA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps. So we did that.

[Assistant] So conflict resolution on the ground throughout the world.

[User] Yeah. And then we did something very similar with the Congo. We brought together and because word kind of spread as to what we were able to do with Ethiopia and Eritrea. And so we were invited to do something similar with the Congo, which of course, had this massive civil war that killed.

[Assistant] But this was no longer through NPCA?

[User] It was not. And what we did in Ethiopia and Eritrea, we got a very small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did this as volunteers. We didn't get paid a penny to do what we did. But the Hewlett Foundation provided a small grant that covered our travel. So when we went to Asmara and Addis Ababa, it was covered by this small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did receptions and so on. Every time they would come to the U.S., we would bring people together to meet with them and so on.

[Assistant] So but it wasn't through the Association.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And then we did something very similar with the Congo. We brought together and because word kind of spread as to what we were able to do with Ethiopia and Eritrea. And so we were invited to do something similar with the Congo, which of course, had this massive civil war that killed.

[Assistant] But this was no longer through NPCA?

[User] It was not. And what we did in Ethiopia and Eritrea, we got a very small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did this as volunteers. We didn't get paid a penny to do what we did. But the Hewlett Foundation provided a small grant that covered our travel. So when we went to Asmara and Addis Ababa, it was covered by this small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did receptions and so on. Every time they would come to the U.S., we would bring people together to meet with them and so on.

[Assistant] So but it wasn't through the Association.

[User] Well, actually, the Association served as the fiscal agent. So it was done through the NPCA that we operated very independently. But the NPCA served as the fiscal agent for the project. And then we did the same thing in the Congo, and the Moore Foundation provided financial support for what we did with the Congo. And there we brought together the leaders of the major rebel groups with the chief advisers to President Kabila and got them to agree to hold something called the Inter-Congolese Dialogue that brought together the rebel groups and the political parties and the business community civil society from throughout Congo to agree to form a coalition government that brought about an end to the large scale civil war. Still dreadful stuff going on in various militias and so on. But the large scale rebellion and civil war is over. And the level of fatalities is down dramatically from what it was. And again, the leaders of those groups credited our group.

[Assistant] So you would argue that a direct response to conflict with Peace Corps volunteers makes sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was not. And what we did in Ethiopia and Eritrea, we got a very small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did this as volunteers. We didn't get paid a penny to do what we did. But the Hewlett Foundation provided a small grant that covered our travel. So when we went to Asmara and Addis Ababa, it was covered by this small grant from the Hewlett Foundation and we did receptions and so on. Every time they would come to the U.S., we would bring people together to meet with them and so on.

[Assistant] So but it wasn't through the Association.

[User] Well, actually, the Association served as the fiscal agent. So it was done through the NPCA that we operated very independently. But the NPCA served as the fiscal agent for the project. And then we did the same thing in the Congo, and the Moore Foundation provided financial support for what we did with the Congo. And there we brought together the leaders of the major rebel groups with the chief advisers to President Kabila and got them to agree to hold something called the Inter-Congolese Dialogue that brought together the rebel groups and the political parties and the business community civil society from throughout Congo to agree to form a coalition government that brought about an end to the large scale civil war. Still dreadful stuff going on in various militias and so on. But the large scale rebellion and civil war is over. And the level of fatalities is down dramatically from what it was. And again, the leaders of those groups credited our group.

[Assistant] So you would argue that a direct response to conflict with Peace Corps volunteers makes sense.

[User] It makes sense. It's possible. We've done it. We know it can be done. It can't be done everywhere. But we know it can be done. And then I went from there, a couple of other things, but ended up running something called the Alliance for Peacebuilding, which is the network of people and organizations throughout the world that do conflict resolution, violence prevention, conflict resolution. And a lot of the people in that network are RPCVs.

[Assistant] And they work throughout the world as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, the Association served as the fiscal agent. So it was done through the NPCA that we operated very independently. But the NPCA served as the fiscal agent for the project. And then we did the same thing in the Congo, and the Moore Foundation provided financial support for what we did with the Congo. And there we brought together the leaders of the major rebel groups with the chief advisers to President Kabila and got them to agree to hold something called the Inter-Congolese Dialogue that brought together the rebel groups and the political parties and the business community civil society from throughout Congo to agree to form a coalition government that brought about an end to the large scale civil war. Still dreadful stuff going on in various militias and so on. But the large scale rebellion and civil war is over. And the level of fatalities is down dramatically from what it was. And again, the leaders of those groups credited our group.

[Assistant] So you would argue that a direct response to conflict with Peace Corps volunteers makes sense.

[User] It makes sense. It's possible. We've done it. We know it can be done. It can't be done everywhere. But we know it can be done. And then I went from there, a couple of other things, but ended up running something called the Alliance for Peacebuilding, which is the network of people and organizations throughout the world that do conflict resolution, violence prevention, conflict resolution. And a lot of the people in that network are RPCVs.

[Assistant] And they work throughout the world as well?

[User] Yeah. And working at all levels, we were fortunate enough to be able to work with the heads of state. A lot of the work of peace building is done at the community level where there are hostilities of ethnic or whatever the nature of the hostilities are. And a lot of the people doing peacebuilding work do it at the community and neighborhood level, which of course is ground zero for Peace Corps people. We feel right at home there.

[Assistant] So it sounds like you never stopped being a Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It makes sense. It's possible. We've done it. We know it can be done. It can't be done everywhere. But we know it can be done. And then I went from there, a couple of other things, but ended up running something called the Alliance for Peacebuilding, which is the network of people and organizations throughout the world that do conflict resolution, violence prevention, conflict resolution. And a lot of the people in that network are RPCVs.

[Assistant] And they work throughout the world as well?

[User] Yeah. And working at all levels, we were fortunate enough to be able to work with the heads of state. A lot of the work of peace building is done at the community level where there are hostilities of ethnic or whatever the nature of the hostilities are. And a lot of the people doing peacebuilding work do it at the community and neighborhood level, which of course is ground zero for Peace Corps people. We feel right at home there.

[Assistant] So it sounds like you never stopped being a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] Never stop being a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Just in a different mode.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And working at all levels, we were fortunate enough to be able to work with the heads of state. A lot of the work of peace building is done at the community level where there are hostilities of ethnic or whatever the nature of the hostilities are. And a lot of the people doing peacebuilding work do it at the community and neighborhood level, which of course is ground zero for Peace Corps people. We feel right at home there.

[Assistant] So it sounds like you never stopped being a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] Never stop being a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Just in a different mode.

[User] Changed the title.

[Assistant] Change the title but keep doing the same thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never stop being a Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Just in a different mode.

[User] Changed the title.

[Assistant] Change the title but keep doing the same thing.

[User] Get paid, sometimes get paid a little bit more. Although a lot of it, I got paid even less than I got paid in the Peace Corps, you know, what we did in Congo and Ethiopia, Eritrea. You didn't paid a penny. You didn't even get a stipend.

[Assistant] Right, right. So do you have any other thoughts about the role of Peace Corps? Well, I mean, this is all third goal. I mean, it's third goal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Changed the title.

[Assistant] Change the title but keep doing the same thing.

[User] Get paid, sometimes get paid a little bit more. Although a lot of it, I got paid even less than I got paid in the Peace Corps, you know, what we did in Congo and Ethiopia, Eritrea. You didn't paid a penny. You didn't even get a stipend.

[Assistant] Right, right. So do you have any other thoughts about the role of Peace Corps? Well, I mean, this is all third goal. I mean, it's third goal.

[User] It's absolutely third goal. And I just am so honored to have had the opportunity to be a Peace Corps volunteer and proud of the community and what we're able to do. Always frustrated that we don't do more. I think we could do more, but certainly proud of what we do and want to make sure we keep it up. Stay together. Maintaining the NPCA and the country groups and the geographic groups, and just recognize that we had the opportunity of a lifetime to be a Peace Corps volunteer. Yes, there is some sacrifice involved in it, but for God's sakes, to get to go off and live in a remote village and learn the language and meet the people and become part of that. What a privilege! And if you have any value set at all as to what that all means, then I would like to think we would all in our own way, in our own communities, in one way or another, to just have that be a part of who we are and what we are, our identity for the rest of our lives.

[Assistant] That sounds like a really good place to end this interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Get paid, sometimes get paid a little bit more. Although a lot of it, I got paid even less than I got paid in the Peace Corps, you know, what we did in Congo and Ethiopia, Eritrea. You didn't paid a penny. You didn't even get a stipend.

[Assistant] Right, right. So do you have any other thoughts about the role of Peace Corps? Well, I mean, this is all third goal. I mean, it's third goal.

[User] It's absolutely third goal. And I just am so honored to have had the opportunity to be a Peace Corps volunteer and proud of the community and what we're able to do. Always frustrated that we don't do more. I think we could do more, but certainly proud of what we do and want to make sure we keep it up. Stay together. Maintaining the NPCA and the country groups and the geographic groups, and just recognize that we had the opportunity of a lifetime to be a Peace Corps volunteer. Yes, there is some sacrifice involved in it, but for God's sakes, to get to go off and live in a remote village and learn the language and meet the people and become part of that. What a privilege! And if you have any value set at all as to what that all means, then I would like to think we would all in our own way, in our own communities, in one way or another, to just have that be a part of who we are and what we are, our identity for the rest of our lives.

[Assistant] That sounds like a really good place to end this interview.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Unless there's something else you want to say. But I think that it seemed like a benediction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think Discovery will be ready to display. It’s just a matter of pulling it in, situating it. The one thing we as the museum need to do is get it up on its display stands, and we do that to keep the rubber of the tires off [the] concrete. That is for long-term preservation of the tires themselves, the rubber. Not having the weight of the vehicle loaded onto the tires, we can decrease the pressure of those tires and make them last that much longer. Other than that, the exhibits design department will have a lot of work to do in creating new signage and so forth, but as far as vehicle prep it should be pretty well ready to display.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have any questions for Tony?

I just have a couple. You were talking about getting all of the old paint off before you put the new paint on. Did you have to treat that surface in any way?

[User] Yes, we used an Alodine [chromate conversion coating] process to treat it. On the payload bay doors it was a wash which required no rinsing, and on the side panels in some areas we were down to the bare metal substrate. In other areas we got it to the basic first coat of primer and it was smooth, so we didn’t feel like we had to strip right down to bare metal. We just needed a good smooth surface. The bare areas of the metal were prepped with an Alodine process before we reprimed everything. Of course everything got the epoxy primer coat prior to the topcoats.

[Assistant] We understand the decision was made to restore it back to how you received it and not its original paint, is that correct?

[User] Yes, Ed was our lead on this. We were all pretty equal as restorers, but you have to tag somebody as the lead, so Ed got that. He dealt with those kinds of issues. I can’t really say with any authority how that decision process came about.

[Assistant] I can see there’d be some discussion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we used an Alodine [chromate conversion coating] process to treat it. On the payload bay doors it was a wash which required no rinsing, and on the side panels in some areas we were down to the bare metal substrate. In other areas we got it to the basic first coat of primer and it was smooth, so we didn’t feel like we had to strip right down to bare metal. We just needed a good smooth surface. The bare areas of the metal were prepped with an Alodine process before we reprimed everything. Of course everything got the epoxy primer coat prior to the topcoats.

[Assistant] We understand the decision was made to restore it back to how you received it and not its original paint, is that correct?

[User] Yes, Ed was our lead on this. We were all pretty equal as restorers, but you have to tag somebody as the lead, so Ed got that. He dealt with those kinds of issues. I can’t really say with any authority how that decision process came about.

[Assistant] I can see there’d be some discussion.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely. Mostly through the curator. Ed represented us on that discussion, and there may have been others involved as well.

[Assistant] When Enterprise leaves, will she have a tool bag of specially designed tools to take with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Ed was our lead on this. We were all pretty equal as restorers, but you have to tag somebody as the lead, so Ed got that. He dealt with those kinds of issues. I can’t really say with any authority how that decision process came about.

[Assistant] I can see there’d be some discussion.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely. Mostly through the curator. Ed represented us on that discussion, and there may have been others involved as well.

[Assistant] When Enterprise leaves, will she have a tool bag of specially designed tools to take with her?

[User] Yes. We’ll offer Intrepid our knowledge, our documentation—I have outlined all of those processes step by step—the special tools that I had used. Although our mockup pods won’t have to go. We have no idea what to do with those, they have no use for us anymore. We’re donating some of the leftover paints we had and the special mixes. When we mix paint to match our simulated tile, we’re mixing it to match the faded paint. It’s unique to that, so it’s good that we can provide them that if they need to do touch-ups.

[Assistant] Is there anything you want to look at in your report? I think we’ve answered all the questions that I had come up with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a good question. I had a different childhood than probably many Peace Corps volunteers because I spent about half of it overseas since you had your career with USAID. So I was exposed to international living and different cultures from an early age. When I went to college, I studied international studies as well as political science. I studied abroad for a semester of my junior year, and all of those experiences left me with a feeling of continued curiosity and interest in international living and travel. So as I was nearing graduation and trying to decide what to do next, I explored a number of options.

[Assistant] Where did you graduate from?

[User] I graduated from Northwestern University in the year 2000. And I, many of the options that I was looking at were ones that would involve living overseas. So in addition to applying to the Peace Corps, I applied for a Fulbright grant and I was looking into other potential fellowships and stipends for international travel and living. And Peace Corps was the first to give me an offer.

[Assistant] All right. At that point, did you speak any languages? Did you have any language skills?

[User] I spoke Portuguese from having lived in Brazil in high school and had taken Spanish at the college level, at the high school and college level, but had sort of deviated from that quickly my sophomore year when I decided to study abroad in Russia. So I had jumped from Spanish to Russian. And then spent my first semester of my junior year abroad in Moscow, continuing to learn Russian. So I think it's fair to say that by the time I graduated, I had a sort of confused mix of Portuguese, Spanish, and Russian, none of which I would have called necessarily fluent or close to fluent at that time.

[Assistant] So Russian was not a place for a Peace Corps in those days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I graduated from Northwestern University in the year 2000. And I, many of the options that I was looking at were ones that would involve living overseas. So in addition to applying to the Peace Corps, I applied for a Fulbright grant and I was looking into other potential fellowships and stipends for international travel and living. And Peace Corps was the first to give me an offer.

[Assistant] All right. At that point, did you speak any languages? Did you have any language skills?

[User] I spoke Portuguese from having lived in Brazil in high school and had taken Spanish at the college level, at the high school and college level, but had sort of deviated from that quickly my sophomore year when I decided to study abroad in Russia. So I had jumped from Spanish to Russian. And then spent my first semester of my junior year abroad in Moscow, continuing to learn Russian. So I think it's fair to say that by the time I graduated, I had a sort of confused mix of Portuguese, Spanish, and Russian, none of which I would have called necessarily fluent or close to fluent at that time.

[Assistant] So Russian was not a place for a Peace Corps in those days?

[User] Russia was not. But there were a number of former Soviet republics that I think did have Peace Corps programs. I remember preferencing Latin America in my application. My time in Moscow was fascinating but was a bit of a lark and had more to do with the political events that were transpiring at that time and my interest in sort of living and experiencing that in real time. And I kind of came back pretty convinced that, um, that that was not the region that I wanted to necessarily specialize in or return to anytime soon. So, yeah, I requested Latin America and I think I had probably at that point still more Spanish or better base of Spanish than Russian, even though I had been living there more recently.

[Assistant] And what was the process for your application and what you heard from Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a good question. I don't think anybody was. I don't remember anybody being removed for behavioral issues, although there were behavioral issues, I'm sure. I think there were some people who may have been sort of held back due to language, not having demonstrated sufficient proficiency in Spanish. But I think those people were either given the option to go back or to sort of stick around for another training. Um, yeah, I think most people, I think, you know, were graduated out of training and sent to sites all across the country.

[Assistant] Was there, were there physical requirements in your training and going to be selected?

[User] I don't recall that being something that was.

[Assistant] Psychological tests?

[User] I think they were evaluating us for sure. I don't remember taking any kind of formal tests in that regard, but I think they were certainly trying to make sure that we were emotionally stable. And that as much as the process of moving to a new country and, you know, learning a new language and immersing in a new culture was definitely going to be a challenge for all of us, that we had the tools we needed to be able to cope with that.

[Assistant] And language, what were you learning? Was it just Spanish or was it also the local language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think it was just a couple of weeks before we were done with the training.

[Assistant] And how were you, how did you like what you were told?

[User] I was very excited. I, um, we had sort of, I think, ferreted out a good deal of information about the universe of sites that were available to us.

[Assistant] How many environmental volunteers were there among them?

[User] I think there were probably a dozen of us. Yeah. And we, you know, I think all had sort of different preferences in terms of where we wanted to be. I don't remember anybody else being terribly excited about the site that I was most interested in, which was Chisec. It was, I think, one of the most, if not the most removed site in the sense that it was pretty isolated from where other volunteers would be. It was in one of the least developed areas of the country in terms of infrastructure and poverty levels and things like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So how were you told?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very excited. I, um, we had sort of, I think, ferreted out a good deal of information about the universe of sites that were available to us.

[Assistant] How many environmental volunteers were there among them?

[User] I think there were probably a dozen of us. Yeah. And we, you know, I think all had sort of different preferences in terms of where we wanted to be. I don't remember anybody else being terribly excited about the site that I was most interested in, which was Chisec. It was, I think, one of the most, if not the most removed site in the sense that it was pretty isolated from where other volunteers would be. It was in one of the least developed areas of the country in terms of infrastructure and poverty levels and things like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So how were you told?

[User] I can't recall. I think we were just, you know, maybe called in one by one to have a conversation with Flavio and Michael, our trainer.

[Assistant] Right. And you said, thank you very much. And when do I go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there were probably a dozen of us. Yeah. And we, you know, I think all had sort of different preferences in terms of where we wanted to be. I don't remember anybody else being terribly excited about the site that I was most interested in, which was Chisec. It was, I think, one of the most, if not the most removed site in the sense that it was pretty isolated from where other volunteers would be. It was in one of the least developed areas of the country in terms of infrastructure and poverty levels and things like that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So how were you told?

[User] I can't recall. I think we were just, you know, maybe called in one by one to have a conversation with Flavio and Michael, our trainer.

[Assistant] Right. And you said, thank you very much. And when do I go?

[User] Yeah, I was excited.

[Assistant] Did you guys have a party before you left or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't recall. I think we were just, you know, maybe called in one by one to have a conversation with Flavio and Michael, our trainer.

[Assistant] Right. And you said, thank you very much. And when do I go?

[User] Yeah, I was excited.

[Assistant] Did you guys have a party before you left or?

[User]
I'm sure we had multiple parties. Yeah. I mean, I remember the day, um, different. The day we sort of ended, um, some. I think the idea was most people, the counterparts, the local counterparts for whom, you know, volunteers would be working, were meant to come and pick them up. So my counterparts from the municipality, the municipal government of Chisec, dutifully arrived, I think a bit late. A guy named Marcellino Cucu, I think was his last name, who was one of the sort of deputy mayors, who was very short Q'eqchi' indigenous guy with about three teeth and a sort of wizened smile, arrived together with a driver, one of the chauffeurs from the municipality, which is a I later learned kind of a prestigious kind of political kickback position.

And, um, yeah. And so I hopped in the pickup truck and made small talk. They went back to Guatemala City to run a bunch of errands and pick up a bunch of supplies and things. And it was about an eight hour drive from there. So we didn't end up arriving into Chisec until quite late.

[Assistant] Well, before we go on, had you met any other previous volunteers from Chisec?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the first volunteer to go, um, I think about a year before me, was a guy by the name of Kelly Kirschner who was in the municipal development program. And I later found out that basically the idea for an environmental management volunteer in working with the municipality was Kelly's idea.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I mean, or something he suggested, and that the municipality ultimately agreed with him on. So Kelly had been there about a year. And then only I think maybe three months before I had gotten there, a woman named Shonda Ferguson had been placed as a agricultural, I can't remember exactly what the program was called, but she was vaccinating a lot of animals. That was essentially her job.

[Assistant] Veterinary work.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. So they were both at post at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, or something he suggested, and that the municipality ultimately agreed with him on. So Kelly had been there about a year. And then only I think maybe three months before I had gotten there, a woman named Shonda Ferguson had been placed as a agricultural, I can't remember exactly what the program was called, but she was vaccinating a lot of animals. That was essentially her job.

[Assistant] Veterinary work.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. So they were both at post at that point?

[User] Yeah. Kelly had been there some time and Shonda was relatively recently arrived.

[Assistant] So as your municipal hosts drove you to Chisec, was there a place for you to stay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. So they were both at post at that point?

[User] Yeah. Kelly had been there some time and Shonda was relatively recently arrived.

[Assistant] So as your municipal hosts drove you to Chisec, was there a place for you to stay?

[User] Yeah. So there, they were in the midst of building this highway, it was an Inter-American Development Bank financed highway. It was being constructed by an Israeli firm called Solel Boneh.

[Assistant] Say it a little louder.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So there, they were in the midst of building this highway, it was an Inter-American Development Bank financed highway. It was being constructed by an Israeli firm called Solel Boneh.

[Assistant] Say it a little louder.

[User] Solel Boneh was the name of the Israeli construction firm. It was a very tricky highway, or at least there were a couple of parts that were quite steep. Coban, the municipal capital of the Department of Alta Verapaz, sits in the highlands in the cloud forests. And Chisec, although maybe only 100, 100 and some kilometers away, is probably 3,000 feet lower in altitude. Maybe that's, maybe that's more, uh, maybe that's exaggerated. But it's significant, significantly lower. It's basically in the rainforests. And there were some very sort of tricky curvy parts of the highway that remained quite dangerous even after, in fact, maybe even more dangerous after the highway was paved. So anyway, all of this work was being done and the construction phase had advanced such that many of the construction workers were in Chisec and had taken up essentially any and all of the available housing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Chisec was a town of about 10,000 people. I would say probably 8,000 of them living in houses that did not have concrete floors. So dirt floors, thatch roof huts on top of that. And so there were very few kind of apartments available. So I, so Marcellino and the municipality had arranged a room for me in the Catholic Church, which had a series of small little apartments with rooms with bathrooms, essentially. So that's where I stayed initially. The plan was for that to be temporary, but I ended up staying there for most of my tenure as a volunteer.

[Assistant] So to help people understand where Chisec is, from Guatemala City how would you describe it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By bus, and then once you're in Coban you would take either a bus or a little minivan to Chisec. And that was

[Assistant] Further north?

[User] Further north. And that was probably two to three hours. Again, I mean, and in fact, when I first got there, because the construction was ongoing and the road hadn't been completed, it was, could be up to four hours.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Well, so, yeah, quite, quite, quite challenging and especially hard to do if you didn't have a four wheel drive.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And if you kept going north from there, how long would it take you to get to some other place that people might know about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Further north. And that was probably two to three hours. Again, I mean, and in fact, when I first got there, because the construction was ongoing and the road hadn't been completed, it was, could be up to four hours.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Well, so, yeah, quite, quite, quite challenging and especially hard to do if you didn't have a four wheel drive.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And if you kept going north from there, how long would it take you to get to some other place that people might know about?

[User] Yeah. I mean, there's not much north of Chisec. You would go kind of wind around north on the road that eventually was paved all the way to Flores, Petén, which is the kind of tourist, is the capital of the Department of Petén and kind of the tourist hub. That from Chisec now with the paved road is maybe four hours, three or four hours. But back then before the paved road would have been 5 to 8 hours. There's one sort of town about the size of Chisec in between, the town of Sayaxché, which was another kind of sort of sleepy municipal town center. And a lot of small what they call aldeas or villages along the way.

[Assistant] So you're, you were greeted by the two volunteers who were already there or?