[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had real-time telemetry. We had a little control van with a five-man flight control team monitoring the thing, controlling what happened.

[Assistant] Is this something they had from the very beginning, so they had it for previous accidents as well?

[User] They had it from the beginning, yes.

[Assistant] In retrospect, it seems like a good thing to have included in the program.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the other comments from other pilots flying it, some of the later Apollo commanders, for instance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had it from the beginning, yes.

[Assistant] In retrospect, it seems like a good thing to have included in the program.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the other comments from other pilots flying it, some of the later Apollo commanders, for instance?

[User] I remember a joke, it really happened. We had a twenty-year reunion of the lunar landing training vehicle people, and John [W.] Young was there. Of course, he was one of the trainees. One of the men told John, he said, “I never understood why you always called it the LTV, John, and not the LLTV. Why did you do that?” And John said, “Well, lunar landing training vehicle, I was pretty sure I was going to get some training, but I was never very sure I was going to be able to land that son of a gun.”\n\n No, the pilots, their post-flight responses were always that it was valuable simulation and that we couldn’t do without it.

[Assistant] That joke sounds like typical John Young.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the other comments from other pilots flying it, some of the later Apollo commanders, for instance?

[User] I remember a joke, it really happened. We had a twenty-year reunion of the lunar landing training vehicle people, and John [W.] Young was there. Of course, he was one of the trainees. One of the men told John, he said, “I never understood why you always called it the LTV, John, and not the LLTV. Why did you do that?” And John said, “Well, lunar landing training vehicle, I was pretty sure I was going to get some training, but I was never very sure I was going to be able to land that son of a gun.”\n\n No, the pilots, their post-flight responses were always that it was valuable simulation and that we couldn’t do without it.

[Assistant] That joke sounds like typical John Young.

[User] John is a character. I hope you’ve had a chance to interview him.

[Assistant] We haven’t just yet. We certainly intend to, but he’s still a very busy guy, still working over here at JSC in Mr. Abbey’s office, so one of these days we hope to get him to sit down and talk with us for a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember a joke, it really happened. We had a twenty-year reunion of the lunar landing training vehicle people, and John [W.] Young was there. Of course, he was one of the trainees. One of the men told John, he said, “I never understood why you always called it the LTV, John, and not the LLTV. Why did you do that?” And John said, “Well, lunar landing training vehicle, I was pretty sure I was going to get some training, but I was never very sure I was going to be able to land that son of a gun.”\n\n No, the pilots, their post-flight responses were always that it was valuable simulation and that we couldn’t do without it.

[Assistant] That joke sounds like typical John Young.

[User] John is a character. I hope you’ve had a chance to interview him.

[Assistant] We haven’t just yet. We certainly intend to, but he’s still a very busy guy, still working over here at JSC in Mr. Abbey’s office, so one of these days we hope to get him to sit down and talk with us for a while.

[User] It will be an experience.

[Assistant] So I understand. Obviously, with the Apollo Program having a limited number of flights, eventually you knew it was going to end with 17, what kind of future did you see for your program or what kind of things did you see moving into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in the ALT Program, the Approach and Landing Test Program, the pilot—I hope I’ve got this correct—the pilot had a switch that was not standard Shuttle, where he could cut the gains in half. When he got in the airplane, they came loose from the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft and if he discovered he had control system problems, he could do things like cut the gains in half. Perhaps he could also double them. I don’t think so. You know, to react to control system problems he was having. Didn’t have to use those kinds of things. But, as I said, the first landing, there was a bit of a PIO. If you’ve ever seen the video of that, it’s pretty obvious.

[Assistant] I think he responded to that problem in the way you had suggested, just let go of the stick and let the aircraft recover.

[User] Actually, the co-pilot sensed it first and called to him to get off the stick.

[Assistant] We've heard about that from a few different people involved with the program, not only from the Flight Crew Operations side.\n\n Were there other issues when you were doing the operations planning, these kinds of things, in the Shuttle Program Office that you remember being particularly significant?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. Let's see. We spent a lot of time on simulators. We spent a lot of time on the tracking and data system. Spent a lot of time and money on that. We spent a lot of time and money trying to develop and trying to get the GPS into the Shuttle even in those early days. We could show numbers how we could save money if we could get the GPS, Global Positioning System, to replace all this ground tracking network, but didn’t have the money to put in to make the investment to get it. Then the Air Force GPS Program lagged significantly, so it wasn’t nearly as early as they had proposed it to be. Those days in Shuttle, time and money, that was what we worked on. Time and money were nonexistent, almost.

[Assistant] How did that compare with your days in Apollo when you were working similar kinds of activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, the co-pilot sensed it first and called to him to get off the stick.

[Assistant] We've heard about that from a few different people involved with the program, not only from the Flight Crew Operations side.\n\n Were there other issues when you were doing the operations planning, these kinds of things, in the Shuttle Program Office that you remember being particularly significant?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. Let's see. We spent a lot of time on simulators. We spent a lot of time on the tracking and data system. Spent a lot of time and money on that. We spent a lot of time and money trying to develop and trying to get the GPS into the Shuttle even in those early days. We could show numbers how we could save money if we could get the GPS, Global Positioning System, to replace all this ground tracking network, but didn’t have the money to put in to make the investment to get it. Then the Air Force GPS Program lagged significantly, so it wasn’t nearly as early as they had proposed it to be. Those days in Shuttle, time and money, that was what we worked on. Time and money were nonexistent, almost.

[Assistant] How did that compare with your days in Apollo when you were working similar kinds of activities?

[User] Time was the pressure. Money was never an issue. I always said, if we had a problem, we threw money at it to make it go away. I don’t remember any pressure on money. There were some things we didn’t do because they cost money, but they were not important.

[Assistant] So it was just something else you had to learn to deal with as you went along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don’t know. Let's see. We spent a lot of time on simulators. We spent a lot of time on the tracking and data system. Spent a lot of time and money on that. We spent a lot of time and money trying to develop and trying to get the GPS into the Shuttle even in those early days. We could show numbers how we could save money if we could get the GPS, Global Positioning System, to replace all this ground tracking network, but didn’t have the money to put in to make the investment to get it. Then the Air Force GPS Program lagged significantly, so it wasn’t nearly as early as they had proposed it to be. Those days in Shuttle, time and money, that was what we worked on. Time and money were nonexistent, almost.

[Assistant] How did that compare with your days in Apollo when you were working similar kinds of activities?

[User] Time was the pressure. Money was never an issue. I always said, if we had a problem, we threw money at it to make it go away. I don’t remember any pressure on money. There were some things we didn’t do because they cost money, but they were not important.

[Assistant] So it was just something else you had to learn to deal with as you went along.

[User] Yes. And the Shuttle, as all our programs are, was optimistically conceived.

[Assistant] In the face of these kinds of problems, how well do you think the Shuttle in general, and the areas you worked on in particular, came through and were able to overcome these?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Time was the pressure. Money was never an issue. I always said, if we had a problem, we threw money at it to make it go away. I don’t remember any pressure on money. There were some things we didn’t do because they cost money, but they were not important.

[Assistant] So it was just something else you had to learn to deal with as you went along.

[User] Yes. And the Shuttle, as all our programs are, was optimistically conceived.

[Assistant] In the face of these kinds of problems, how well do you think the Shuttle in general, and the areas you worked on in particular, came through and were able to overcome these?

[User] Well, it’s a successful program. Twenty years ago, we conceived of the Shuttle as a completely reusable vehicle that was going to fly after a two-week turnaround or some such thing, with a few thousand man-hours of work to turn it around and fly 65,000-pound payloads and fly 66 times a year and things like that. Very optimistic.\n\n As it turns out, of course, not only could we not operate the Shuttle that well, that cheaply, that frivolously, but the market didn’t exist either. Sixty-six missions, or sixty missions, I guess it was, they don’t exist. We were very optimistic about the future of manned space flight. Still am, but now I think of it in terms of centuries rather than years.

[Assistant] Is that a change you developed through your years in working with the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And the Shuttle, as all our programs are, was optimistically conceived.

[Assistant] In the face of these kinds of problems, how well do you think the Shuttle in general, and the areas you worked on in particular, came through and were able to overcome these?

[User] Well, it’s a successful program. Twenty years ago, we conceived of the Shuttle as a completely reusable vehicle that was going to fly after a two-week turnaround or some such thing, with a few thousand man-hours of work to turn it around and fly 65,000-pound payloads and fly 66 times a year and things like that. Very optimistic.\n\n As it turns out, of course, not only could we not operate the Shuttle that well, that cheaply, that frivolously, but the market didn’t exist either. Sixty-six missions, or sixty missions, I guess it was, they don’t exist. We were very optimistic about the future of manned space flight. Still am, but now I think of it in terms of centuries rather than years.

[Assistant] Is that a change you developed through your years in working with the space program?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Not too long after the Shuttle Program was up and flying, you left NASA. Why did you want to leave the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s a successful program. Twenty years ago, we conceived of the Shuttle as a completely reusable vehicle that was going to fly after a two-week turnaround or some such thing, with a few thousand man-hours of work to turn it around and fly 65,000-pound payloads and fly 66 times a year and things like that. Very optimistic.\n\n As it turns out, of course, not only could we not operate the Shuttle that well, that cheaply, that frivolously, but the market didn’t exist either. Sixty-six missions, or sixty missions, I guess it was, they don’t exist. We were very optimistic about the future of manned space flight. Still am, but now I think of it in terms of centuries rather than years.

[Assistant] Is that a change you developed through your years in working with the space program?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Not too long after the Shuttle Program was up and flying, you left NASA. Why did you want to leave the space program?

[User] I wanted to go sailing. Something I’d always dreamed of, and I did. I left NASA in the end of ’83, and in ’86 my wife and I went off on a long sailing trip. We did it again in ’93, ’94, ’96, ’98, and this year. So I left NASA so I could have the freedom to do that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So have you kept in touch with what was going on in the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Not too long after the Shuttle Program was up and flying, you left NASA. Why did you want to leave the space program?

[User] I wanted to go sailing. Something I’d always dreamed of, and I did. I left NASA in the end of ’83, and in ’86 my wife and I went off on a long sailing trip. We did it again in ’93, ’94, ’96, ’98, and this year. So I left NASA so I could have the freedom to do that kind of thing.

[Assistant] So have you kept in touch with what was going on in the space program?

[User] Well, I stayed active. Between my various retirements, I stayed active. I worked for Eagle Engineering, which was a small company, mostly of retired JSC people. Worked with them until ’86 and then from ’86 until…when I came back from my trip in ’86 until they were taken over by Muniz Engineering in, I guess, 1995. It was a great effort. I had a great series of jobs at Eagle. Worked on a lot of things, most of which were space program, not all of which were space program, and not all the space program things were NASA.

[Assistant] To look back at all your involvement with the space program, the twenty years, who were some of the key people that you worked with and really had an impact on you personally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] GSA had all the authority legally with a couple exceptions but the Energy Information Administration or the administrator had substantial statutory authority independent of the Secretary of Energy. Another place we went was to the Smithsonian where we had a long discussion with Phillip S. Hughes, Sam Hughes, who was then the Undersecretary of the Smithsonian. Hughes had been the official Deputy Director of the Bureau of the Budget who had written the Bureau of the Budget position paper about 1968 saying leave them in GSA, but give them more money, or something like that. Hughes admitted to us, and was willing to do so on the record, that he was probably wrong when he did that, and he supported independence now in the eighties. That was fairly significant because Hughes had all the contacts in the Public Administration community and I think he talked up the idea within the Public Administration community. I can’t remember all the things that happened at that time but one of the things I went to was a hearing that Glen English had. I'm going to go back to the group, that committee. You had Trudy and she doesn’t want to talk to you, you said. Adrienne Thomas, who later became Deputy Archivist—is Adrienne on your list?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And Maygene Daniels?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Maygene left the Archives after that and went to the National Gallery of Art as an Archivist but at independence time her husband was the Staff Director for House Oversight Committee and officially recused himself from the thing, but anyway Maygene lived close to Trudy; I don't know if it was next door or in the same block, but she was Trudy’s neighbor. Maygene also graduated from college with one of my sisters.

[Assistant] Did this group that was formulated come out with a report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Maygene Daniels?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Maygene left the Archives after that and went to the National Gallery of Art as an Archivist but at independence time her husband was the Staff Director for House Oversight Committee and officially recused himself from the thing, but anyway Maygene lived close to Trudy; I don't know if it was next door or in the same block, but she was Trudy’s neighbor. Maygene also graduated from college with one of my sisters.

[Assistant] Did this group that was formulated come out with a report?

[User] Yes, there was a report and I don’t remember what it was called. It was probably in ‘83 but I don’t remember for sure.

[Assistant] This report suggested up backing it up with information from Hughes from—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maygene left the Archives after that and went to the National Gallery of Art as an Archivist but at independence time her husband was the Staff Director for House Oversight Committee and officially recused himself from the thing, but anyway Maygene lived close to Trudy; I don't know if it was next door or in the same block, but she was Trudy’s neighbor. Maygene also graduated from college with one of my sisters.

[Assistant] Did this group that was formulated come out with a report?

[User] Yes, there was a report and I don’t remember what it was called. It was probably in ‘83 but I don’t remember for sure.

[Assistant] This report suggested up backing it up with information from Hughes from—

[User] [Interposing] It had backup information and it talked about some possible alternatives I think. It’s been over 30 years.

[Assistant] That’s my job to pull the information from you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was a report and I don’t remember what it was called. It was probably in ‘83 but I don’t remember for sure.

[Assistant] This report suggested up backing it up with information from Hughes from—

[User] [Interposing] It had backup information and it talked about some possible alternatives I think. It’s been over 30 years.

[Assistant] That’s my job to pull the information from you.

[User] You need to find somebody to go find the report.

[Assistant] John, what was significant and how did the whole politics of independence work on Capitol Hill and who and what was significant and who are significant as far as getting that independence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You need to find somebody to go find the report.

[Assistant] John, what was significant and how did the whole politics of independence work on Capitol Hill and who and what was significant and who are significant as far as getting that independence?

[User] I don’t know how it all worked on Capitol Hill. Like I said, I talked a lot to John Parisi who is on the house staff who worked for Maygene Daniels' husband. I know Dick Jacobs did a lot of talking on the phone and doing the same kind of thing with senate staff but there are a lot of other people in the Archives talking to a lot of other politicians. I went to a hearing that was held by Glen English, who was Chairman of the Oversight Committee, and his wife was a personal friend of the librarian at the time. I don’t remember; the archives librarian at the time and I don't remember her name but I believe English’s wife was a personal friend of the librarian. But we had this hearing and English asked a lot of questions with some interesting answers like ‘you didn't get this budget request’ or ‘Mr. Archivist, you didn’t ask for more money. Well why didn’t you ask for more money.’ Because the administrator—first he asked the Administrator why didn’t you give the Archivist more money. This is sort of a paraphrase; and the Administrator said because the Archivist didn’t ask me for more money. Then he asked the archivist why didn't you ask him for more money; because he told me not to.

[Assistant] Circles.

[User] Glen English called as a witness Jess Larson who had been English’s father’s or grandfather’s law partner. Jess Larson was the first Administrator of GSA. He said something to the effect that if he’d known how the GSA-Archives relationship was going to turn out he wouldn’t have accepted it.

[Assistant] That testimony right there I guess helped push towards independence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Glen English called as a witness Jess Larson who had been English’s father’s or grandfather’s law partner. Jess Larson was the first Administrator of GSA. He said something to the effect that if he’d known how the GSA-Archives relationship was going to turn out he wouldn’t have accepted it.

[Assistant] That testimony right there I guess helped push towards independence?

[User] Yes, but you should be able to find that testimony somewhere in the Congressional Records. I couldn’t give you a citation. Probably ‘83.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Then I guess it was the summer of ‘84 there was a lot of back and forth and maybe a couple of false starts and some fear that it wasn't going to pass. First we would be confident and then we weren't so confident but it did pass, I think in what, October of ‘84.

[Assistant] What did it mean when it passed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but you should be able to find that testimony somewhere in the Congressional Records. I couldn’t give you a citation. Probably ‘83.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Then I guess it was the summer of ‘84 there was a lot of back and forth and maybe a couple of false starts and some fear that it wasn't going to pass. First we would be confident and then we weren't so confident but it did pass, I think in what, October of ‘84.

[Assistant] What did it mean when it passed?

[User] Congress passed a bill to establish the National Archives and Records Administration to be effective, I guess, April 1, 1985. I couldn’t give you the bill number anymore or the title. We had a law that was passed, so what do we do now? About that time then probably at the beginning of November, but maybe not, I wrote a long memo to the Archivist that basically said do it now, and spelled out what I believed were the Administrator's authorities that could be delegated to the Archivist to effectively make the Archives independent. It could have been done all along but Administrators wouldn't do it. My argument was that now that it’s passed and going to be effective April 1 why don't you go ask them to do it now. I think the way that played out is Ray Kline who had been the Deputy Administrator was Acting Administrator and I think Ray Kline was sympathetic and when I went to Kline and came back with a delegation of authority to, in effect, operate independently as soon as he could work out the details.

[Assistant] How did you come about this idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I guess it was the summer of ‘84 there was a lot of back and forth and maybe a couple of false starts and some fear that it wasn't going to pass. First we would be confident and then we weren't so confident but it did pass, I think in what, October of ‘84.

[Assistant] What did it mean when it passed?

[User] Congress passed a bill to establish the National Archives and Records Administration to be effective, I guess, April 1, 1985. I couldn’t give you the bill number anymore or the title. We had a law that was passed, so what do we do now? About that time then probably at the beginning of November, but maybe not, I wrote a long memo to the Archivist that basically said do it now, and spelled out what I believed were the Administrator's authorities that could be delegated to the Archivist to effectively make the Archives independent. It could have been done all along but Administrators wouldn't do it. My argument was that now that it’s passed and going to be effective April 1 why don't you go ask them to do it now. I think the way that played out is Ray Kline who had been the Deputy Administrator was Acting Administrator and I think Ray Kline was sympathetic and when I went to Kline and came back with a delegation of authority to, in effect, operate independently as soon as he could work out the details.

[Assistant] How did you come about this idea?

[User] I’d been arguing that since early in the game. I said if we get it passed then we ought to just do it. I argued even back in the seventies that the Administrator could delegate more authority to the archivist; he just wouldn't do it. If the Administrator did not delegate a lot of authority to any part of GSA from the beginning.

[Assistant] Just so you can help our audience out, what’s the hierarchy of Administrator and Archivist? Who is the Administrator compared to the Archivist and how come he is able to put duties onto the Archivist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That probably was true up until a few years ago. Anyway, we did the transition and it worked—I guess from my perspective it worked better than I would have thought but some people didn't think it worked quite as well but I think it worked out pretty well. Then at independence time before he retired, Warner handed out a bunch of awards to people that worked on independence. I guess that was the act that officially rehabilitated me. I got a $7,500 cash award for working on independence, which I believe was the smallest award of any of the people that worked on it. But it was a demonstration that I was back in management’s good graces and not banished to a closet.

[Assistant] Is that due to your work or is that also due to the fact that people change and administrations change and sometimes that also plays a role in somebody’s life?

[User] I think probably more my work than administration’s changing. I think my going into the closet in the first place was more due to administrations changing and then Warner just accepting the status quo. I was in effect banished after Rhoads left while O’Neill was Acting Archivist. I was in the doghouse when Warner came in and I think he just maintained the status quo until the end of independence time and I think he had Ed Weldon or—is Ed Weldon on your list?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Ed Weldon was the first head of the archives branch in Atlanta. He was later the Georgia State Archivist and the New York State Archivist and he was Deputy Archivist of the U.S. He might be a worthwhile person.

[Assistant] At this time John, independence has now officially taken place, we are an independent organization. How did you get to your next duty of Director of the Field Archives that you had for eight years, from ‘84 to ‘92.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think probably more my work than administration’s changing. I think my going into the closet in the first place was more due to administrations changing and then Warner just accepting the status quo. I was in effect banished after Rhoads left while O’Neill was Acting Archivist. I was in the doghouse when Warner came in and I think he just maintained the status quo until the end of independence time and I think he had Ed Weldon or—is Ed Weldon on your list?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Ed Weldon was the first head of the archives branch in Atlanta. He was later the Georgia State Archivist and the New York State Archivist and he was Deputy Archivist of the U.S. He might be a worthwhile person.

[Assistant] At this time John, independence has now officially taken place, we are an independent organization. How did you get to your next duty of Director of the Field Archives that you had for eight years, from ‘84 to ‘92.

[User] In the last few days of the transition when it became clear that I was probably going to be rehabilitated the question was what do we do with him. I think it was Frank Burke who decided that if we were going to run the regions ourselves rather than through the GSA apparatus, and if they were going to take my suggestion that the regional archives be organizationally separate from the record centers and the regional archives work for the Assistant Archivist for the National Archives rather than work for the Record Center Director who worked for the Assistant Archivist for Federal Record Centers. If that’s how we were going to organize then Burke thought I was the best candidate to do it, to run the region or field archives program or whatever we called it at the time. They assigned me to do that. I think it was a combination of what are we going to do with him and he’s probably the person that knows the most about this.

[Assistant] This is also based upon your reports that you said I believe was ‘68 microfilm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but the Regional Archives Coordinator had worked for me during the seventies too when I was in the Office of the National Archives. When I was in the Office of the Executive Director I also did staff work when that had a meeting of the NARA Regional Directors. The regional directors worked for the GSA regional administrators but the archivist would meet with them every year or two and for four or five years there I was the person who did the staff work, the arrangements for the meetings and stuff or my staff did. I did it a couple times and people working for me did it a couple times. We’re going to independence and we have a field archives division which I have taken over and inherited Roseanne Butler who was the Regional Archives Coordinator which they didn’t even consider a management job I don’t think.

[Assistant] Roseanne Butler would be considered your assistant?

[User] Yes, and we made her Deputy Director. She was better at some things than I was by far. She’s a better communicator. More sympathetic. I had a vision for the regions that I’d had all along and Frank pretty much was willing to go along with that, Frank Burke, because now was Acting Archivist then after Warner left for a while.

[Assistant] I’d like to get clear on who was who. Frank Burke at this point was the Acting Archivist?

[User] He was Acting Assistant Archivist for the National Archives for a while and then the Acting Archivist for a while. I’m not sure how official all that was because the White House didn’t do anything when Warner left.

[Assistant] Could you describe your vision for the regions and if that is also part of the manifesto maybe you can go into that a little bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and we made her Deputy Director. She was better at some things than I was by far. She’s a better communicator. More sympathetic. I had a vision for the regions that I’d had all along and Frank pretty much was willing to go along with that, Frank Burke, because now was Acting Archivist then after Warner left for a while.

[Assistant] I’d like to get clear on who was who. Frank Burke at this point was the Acting Archivist?

[User] He was Acting Assistant Archivist for the National Archives for a while and then the Acting Archivist for a while. I’m not sure how official all that was because the White House didn’t do anything when Warner left.

[Assistant] Could you describe your vision for the regions and if that is also part of the manifesto maybe you can go into that a little bit?

[User] I saw the regional archives as being depositories for the vast quantity of records that were probably somewhere outside Washington, and I think there were a lot more records outside Washington that should have been in the archives than were. I saw it, as with the microfilm, as a way to make the records in Washington more available by putting more of the microfilm there. I saw the regional archives as a way to build a national constituency for the National Archives. It was genealogists outside Washington who supported us strongly when it looked like the Privacy Act was going to be a problem and it was genealogists outside Washington who supported us strongly in the independence fight, made calls to congressman and did things, and I saw the regional archives as an opportunity to build a national constituency among the genealogists and other people and state archivists and historians and I think Burke went along with that and I think Trudy did not, but Burke was the boss at the time.

[Assistant] What was the argument against it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that’s true but it’s not just the last few years. I think that's why I ceased to be head of the regions in 1992 because that was not viewed as favorably as it had been.

[Assistant] There was a distrust from DC about exactly what the regional archives do.

[User] I don’t know; I wish you could talk to Trudy because if Trudy were honest with you she would probably tell you more. You might see what you can get out of Michael Kurtz on that. He was Trudy’s Deputy at the time.

[Assistant] A question I wanted to ask you before we move on from this area to the next section—

[User] [Interposing] Let me talk a little more about the regions because we wanted a strong volunteer program and I think that the high point we probably had over 400 volunteers. We wanted extended hours and we required at least one evening and a Saturday a month but we allowed them to do more if they wanted to do more. We encouraged them to do training mainly genealogical training, but training in how to do research in the records. A lot of them would have a Saturday morning session where they would get people in and show them how to search the microfilm. We weren't too specific about some of that but you had to do something. But you know what I mean.

[Assistant] Also outreach to schools too as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know; I wish you could talk to Trudy because if Trudy were honest with you she would probably tell you more. You might see what you can get out of Michael Kurtz on that. He was Trudy’s Deputy at the time.

[Assistant] A question I wanted to ask you before we move on from this area to the next section—

[User] [Interposing] Let me talk a little more about the regions because we wanted a strong volunteer program and I think that the high point we probably had over 400 volunteers. We wanted extended hours and we required at least one evening and a Saturday a month but we allowed them to do more if they wanted to do more. We encouraged them to do training mainly genealogical training, but training in how to do research in the records. A lot of them would have a Saturday morning session where they would get people in and show them how to search the microfilm. We weren't too specific about some of that but you had to do something. But you know what I mean.

[Assistant] Also outreach to schools too as well?

[User] Yeah, we had a lot of schools to work. We encouraged some… You ought to interview Roseanne. I have not talked to Roseanne for more than 15 years.

[Assistant] The outreach really in many ways, that outreach was a key component of the regions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Let me talk a little more about the regions because we wanted a strong volunteer program and I think that the high point we probably had over 400 volunteers. We wanted extended hours and we required at least one evening and a Saturday a month but we allowed them to do more if they wanted to do more. We encouraged them to do training mainly genealogical training, but training in how to do research in the records. A lot of them would have a Saturday morning session where they would get people in and show them how to search the microfilm. We weren't too specific about some of that but you had to do something. But you know what I mean.

[Assistant] Also outreach to schools too as well?

[User] Yeah, we had a lot of schools to work. We encouraged some… You ought to interview Roseanne. I have not talked to Roseanne for more than 15 years.

[Assistant] The outreach really in many ways, that outreach was a key component of the regions.

[User] Yes, it was a key component. That’s a fair way to put it. I have not seen Roseanne probably since 1999. I think I saw her husband once after that. I understand that she was a uniformed tour guide in Williamsburg but I simply haven’t heard from them.

[Assistant] I’ll definitely reach out to Roseanne. You had said earlier on in the last interview that we had done you said that outreach in genealogy without it we’d still be in GSA. What did you mean by that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a key component. That’s a fair way to put it. I have not seen Roseanne probably since 1999. I think I saw her husband once after that. I understand that she was a uniformed tour guide in Williamsburg but I simply haven’t heard from them.

[Assistant] I’ll definitely reach out to Roseanne. You had said earlier on in the last interview that we had done you said that outreach in genealogy without it we’d still be in GSA. What did you mean by that?

[User] I think that the biggest push for independence came from genealogists. The historians were not particularly helpful. The AHA was in favor but you didn’t have history professors calling their congressman and saying do it, if you know what I mean.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think the current Archivist has probably turned his back on the genealogical community but maybe that’s not part of this interview.

[Assistant] We can talk more about that at the end when we talk about the current state of archive—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that the biggest push for independence came from genealogists. The historians were not particularly helpful. The AHA was in favor but you didn’t have history professors calling their congressman and saying do it, if you know what I mean.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think the current Archivist has probably turned his back on the genealogical community but maybe that’s not part of this interview.

[Assistant] We can talk more about that at the end when we talk about the current state of archive—

[User] [Interposing] I guess I’m willing to talk about some things at the end that I don’t want in the oral history interview because they aren’t history, if you know what I mean.

[Assistant] We can always talk off the record. I can stop and we can speak about that. One question I wanted to ask you before we leave here is what missed opportunities do you think we had then or what opportunities do you think we missed during this time of independence and us moving forward. Did we have a chance to do things differently? Did we have a chance to gain something that maybe we never have within the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure how to describe it but many of the locations were terrible. For example we moved out of Bayonne [New Jersey] to downtown New York and Philadelphia moved downtown. Not all the downtown moves were good, not all were bad. I think we missed opportunities to move to better facilities in some places or to build joint ventures with other facilities in some places. I think we missed the opportunity to really look closely at where there were significant federal records being created that we weren’t getting. Maybe there should have been more regional or maybe there should be more regional archives; maybe not. I don’t know. I was very much involved in the Alaska project. The archivist basically said that he promised Senator Stevens this would be done and it was up to me to get it done and he wrote a letter to GSA saying that I had full authority to speak for him in dealing with the GSA people in San Francisco and Anchorage. I did what needed to be done and I concluded early on that the building they had planned was too small for the records that were likely to come out of the woodwork if we had a facility there and had some bitter arguments with Claudine about size but ended up building a bigger building than was originally conceived, but for no additional money and we got the project done on time and on budget, and made Senator Stevens very happy and got the records moved without a problem. Do you know Sue Karran?

[Assistant] Yes, I know her through the internal collaboration network (ICN) that we have. She’s been giving me a lot of information regarding you and comments that you had made.

[User] Sue was the assistant head of the Archives branch in Seattle under Phil Lothyan. I told Sue that it was her project to get the records that were going from Seattle to Anchorage and she was going with them and she couldn't go home until they were all shelved properly. She exceeded my expectations.

[Assistant] I hope she got an Archive Achievement Award for it.

[User] Yes. She did an excellent job. But anyway what happened in Anchorage recently is beyond the scope of this conversation I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah, well different era, different time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sue was the assistant head of the Archives branch in Seattle under Phil Lothyan. I told Sue that it was her project to get the records that were going from Seattle to Anchorage and she was going with them and she couldn't go home until they were all shelved properly. She exceeded my expectations.

[Assistant] I hope she got an Archive Achievement Award for it.

[User] Yes. She did an excellent job. But anyway what happened in Anchorage recently is beyond the scope of this conversation I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah, well different era, different time.

[User] We can talk about that off the record when we talk about non-historical things.

[Assistant] I don’t know if this question applies; I’m going to mention it here because I just wanted to mention because a lot of the things that a lot of my colleagues talk about is that the National Archives, and I want to see your take on this, doesn’t seem to have authority or power to secure permanent records from regional facilities. Meaning that we’re out here in the regions and such-and-such agency has historical records and if they don’t want to give it to us we can’t get them to give it to us. Was there ever an opportunity during the course of your career that you saw where we could have actually had enforcement powers to secure permanent records into our facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think Buck is the last Archivist who had a personal relationship with a sitting President and it wasn’t a close one but Buck did see Roosevelt. Of course, that was the time the Roosevelt Library was being set up.

[Assistant] Let’s move on to 1992 to 1995. Tell us about how you transitioned from the Director of Field Archives Division, Regional Archives to the Director of the Non-textual Archive Division. How did that work out?

[User] I was called into the Archivist's office and I was told I was being reassigned. I objected. In the meeting I considered it a demotion and that there wasn’t much I can do about it but I was not happy.

[Assistant] What were the politics behind it? If you don’t mind telling us.

[User] In ways that’s a Trudy Peterson or Michael Kurtz question and to some extent Claudine Wieher was probably involved but Claudine’s deceased. There are two women that at one time or other looked at me as their mentor in management matters. Claudine Wieher and Debra Wall. They both became Deputy Archivists. Claudine, as far as I’m concerned, turned to her dark side and Claudine was instrumental in my removal from the Office of the National Archives the first time and my removal from the Regional Archives Program.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case, if you don’t mind speculating? If this is an area that you don’t want on the record I understand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was called into the Archivist's office and I was told I was being reassigned. I objected. In the meeting I considered it a demotion and that there wasn’t much I can do about it but I was not happy.

[Assistant] What were the politics behind it? If you don’t mind telling us.

[User] In ways that’s a Trudy Peterson or Michael Kurtz question and to some extent Claudine Wieher was probably involved but Claudine’s deceased. There are two women that at one time or other looked at me as their mentor in management matters. Claudine Wieher and Debra Wall. They both became Deputy Archivists. Claudine, as far as I’m concerned, turned to her dark side and Claudine was instrumental in my removal from the Office of the National Archives the first time and my removal from the Regional Archives Program.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case, if you don’t mind speculating? If this is an area that you don’t want on the record I understand.

[User] I have never understood. I have really never understood. At the time Claudine retired and sort of at the urging of Debra Wall, believe it or not, I called Claudine to say goodbye, to wish her well, and to tell her maybe we should try to remember the good times rather than the bad times and she did not take that call very kindly and I gather she made fun of it to other people.

[Assistant] Do you think it was something that you had done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In ways that’s a Trudy Peterson or Michael Kurtz question and to some extent Claudine Wieher was probably involved but Claudine’s deceased. There are two women that at one time or other looked at me as their mentor in management matters. Claudine Wieher and Debra Wall. They both became Deputy Archivists. Claudine, as far as I’m concerned, turned to her dark side and Claudine was instrumental in my removal from the Office of the National Archives the first time and my removal from the Regional Archives Program.

[Assistant] Why do you think that was the case, if you don’t mind speculating? If this is an area that you don’t want on the record I understand.

[User] I have never understood. I have really never understood. At the time Claudine retired and sort of at the urging of Debra Wall, believe it or not, I called Claudine to say goodbye, to wish her well, and to tell her maybe we should try to remember the good times rather than the bad times and she did not take that call very kindly and I gather she made fun of it to other people.

[Assistant] Do you think it was something that you had done?

[User] I’m sure I must have done something that turned her but I don’t know. I don’t want to get into that more. I think she had some character flaws. I was assigned to the Non-textual Archives Division, a job I hated. I had less authority there than I had running the Regional Archives Program. I turned 50 very shortly after they did that and could have retired if they’d been willing to make it an adverse action like riff me or something, but Don Wilson and Claudine Wieher were not willing to make it an adverse action that would allow me to retire at that time, so I ran the division for about three years and did not like it. During that time though, Debra Wall and Jennifer Nelson, worked for me and both expressed an interest in learning more about management so I spent some time with them.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of what you did? What was your job at that time from ‘92 to ‘95?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have never understood. I have really never understood. At the time Claudine retired and sort of at the urging of Debra Wall, believe it or not, I called Claudine to say goodbye, to wish her well, and to tell her maybe we should try to remember the good times rather than the bad times and she did not take that call very kindly and I gather she made fun of it to other people.

[Assistant] Do you think it was something that you had done?

[User] I’m sure I must have done something that turned her but I don’t know. I don’t want to get into that more. I think she had some character flaws. I was assigned to the Non-textual Archives Division, a job I hated. I had less authority there than I had running the Regional Archives Program. I turned 50 very shortly after they did that and could have retired if they’d been willing to make it an adverse action like riff me or something, but Don Wilson and Claudine Wieher were not willing to make it an adverse action that would allow me to retire at that time, so I ran the division for about three years and did not like it. During that time though, Debra Wall and Jennifer Nelson, worked for me and both expressed an interest in learning more about management so I spent some time with them.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of what you did? What was your job at that time from ‘92 to ‘95?

[User] I was over the Still Picture, Motion Picture, and Cartographic branches. I put some stuff in the 1998 resume I sent you that I don’t remember anymore. It was not a good time and I was not a happy camper.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to talk about during that period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sure I must have done something that turned her but I don’t know. I don’t want to get into that more. I think she had some character flaws. I was assigned to the Non-textual Archives Division, a job I hated. I had less authority there than I had running the Regional Archives Program. I turned 50 very shortly after they did that and could have retired if they’d been willing to make it an adverse action like riff me or something, but Don Wilson and Claudine Wieher were not willing to make it an adverse action that would allow me to retire at that time, so I ran the division for about three years and did not like it. During that time though, Debra Wall and Jennifer Nelson, worked for me and both expressed an interest in learning more about management so I spent some time with them.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of what you did? What was your job at that time from ‘92 to ‘95?

[User] I was over the Still Picture, Motion Picture, and Cartographic branches. I put some stuff in the 1998 resume I sent you that I don’t remember anymore. It was not a good time and I was not a happy camper.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to talk about during that period?

[User] Let me think for a minute or two.

[Assistant] Non-textual Archives Division this was a period in ‘92 to ‘95 where computers were becoming more prevalent and technology was changing. What technical advances were happening or what opportunities did you see for the National Archives to advance during this period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me think for a minute or two.

[Assistant] Non-textual Archives Division this was a period in ‘92 to ‘95 where computers were becoming more prevalent and technology was changing. What technical advances were happening or what opportunities did you see for the National Archives to advance during this period?

[User] We had a card catalogue and we talked about digitizing it. I don’t think we got very far on that. Actually Debra would be a better person to talk about that project. I spent some time trying to improve the services by looking at how we did things. I oversaw moving cartographic records from the National Archives, the Pickett Street buildings, to Archives II. Then I did some stuff that was not related to that job because we had another taskforce. I was on taskforces all the time on reinventing government, responding to Gore’s performance review. That was a strategic planning team, and I don’t remember all that stuff. That wasn’t just them. All through my career, when I was in favor, if there was a committee on this management thing or that, I tended to be on it. Like independence.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Maybe a third of my time while I was in that job was doing stuff that was not directly related to that job.

[Assistant] Was this also when the Bledsoe Group report came about and can you describe that a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a card catalogue and we talked about digitizing it. I don’t think we got very far on that. Actually Debra would be a better person to talk about that project. I spent some time trying to improve the services by looking at how we did things. I oversaw moving cartographic records from the National Archives, the Pickett Street buildings, to Archives II. Then I did some stuff that was not related to that job because we had another taskforce. I was on taskforces all the time on reinventing government, responding to Gore’s performance review. That was a strategic planning team, and I don’t remember all that stuff. That wasn’t just them. All through my career, when I was in favor, if there was a committee on this management thing or that, I tended to be on it. Like independence.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Maybe a third of my time while I was in that job was doing stuff that was not directly related to that job.

[Assistant] Was this also when the Bledsoe Group report came about and can you describe that a little bit.

[User] I think that's about the time the Bledsoe Group came about. I don’t remember exactly. Ralph Bledsoe, do you know about Ralph Bledsoe?

[Assistant] No, no. What was the Bledsoe Report and Group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that's about the time the Bledsoe Group came about. I don’t remember exactly. Ralph Bledsoe, do you know about Ralph Bledsoe?

[Assistant] No, no. What was the Bledsoe Report and Group?

[User] First of all do you know about Ralph Bledsoe?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Okay. At that time Ralph was the Director of the Reagan Library, the first Director of the Reagan Library, and they set up a group under him to look at how we were doing things and I forget what the official title was and I forget who all was on it. Lori Lisowski was on it among other things. Barbara Berger who was in the Still Picture Branch. I don’t remember all the people. I remember some things 40 or 50 years ago better than I remember things 20 years ago. Before Ralph was director of the Reagan Library he’d had a number of jobs. He had been head of the Graduate Public Administration Program at the Sacramento Branch of USC, I think it was, when Reagan was the governor. He had been on the faculty of the Federal Executive Institute in Charlottesville, not when I went there though. He had been head of the USC Doctor of Public Administration Program at Washington, and he had been Assistant Domestic Policy Advisor in the White House during the Reagan years. He was the White House staff member who wrote the report in the White House agreeing with the NARS independence bill. When he was the White House Assistant Domestic Policy Advisor he basically wrote the White House decision paper favoring independence, and he was very close to Philip S. Hughes. I told you when we went to see Hughes he talked to other people. Ralph was very active in the Public Administration community. Anyway, when we had this committee he was Director of the Reagan Library.

[Assistant] What did this committee do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First of all do you know about Ralph Bledsoe?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Okay. At that time Ralph was the Director of the Reagan Library, the first Director of the Reagan Library, and they set up a group under him to look at how we were doing things and I forget what the official title was and I forget who all was on it. Lori Lisowski was on it among other things. Barbara Berger who was in the Still Picture Branch. I don’t remember all the people. I remember some things 40 or 50 years ago better than I remember things 20 years ago. Before Ralph was director of the Reagan Library he’d had a number of jobs. He had been head of the Graduate Public Administration Program at the Sacramento Branch of USC, I think it was, when Reagan was the governor. He had been on the faculty of the Federal Executive Institute in Charlottesville, not when I went there though. He had been head of the USC Doctor of Public Administration Program at Washington, and he had been Assistant Domestic Policy Advisor in the White House during the Reagan years. He was the White House staff member who wrote the report in the White House agreeing with the NARS independence bill. When he was the White House Assistant Domestic Policy Advisor he basically wrote the White House decision paper favoring independence, and he was very close to Philip S. Hughes. I told you when we went to see Hughes he talked to other people. Ralph was very active in the Public Administration community. Anyway, when we had this committee he was Director of the Reagan Library.

[Assistant] What did this committee do?

[User] We wrote a report. I don’t remember what was in the report. We had a meeting out at the Reagan Library along the way. Maybe this was one of the strategic planning things or Gore things.

[Assistant] Like a reinventing initiative of the nineties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that kind of thing. We had a meeting at the library and Reagan and Colin Powell were there one of the days at the library and it was interesting because Tom Selleck was there and Barbara Berger who worked for me in Still Pictures at the time chatted up Tom Selleck for a long time because he was interested in Still Pictures research. Shortly after that Ralph was removed from the library and sent to Washington apparently at the request of Mrs. Reagan, and he became an Assistant Archivist and then an Acting Deputy Archivist and I don’t know if he’s still alive or not. He’d be pretty old if he is.

[Assistant] Some of the questions that I might have about this era, and tell me if this is the ‘92-’95 era, about your work on automation and cataloguing, being responsible for getting public access PCs in all research rooms nationwide, and also your views on your time of troubles and a senate report that was critical of NARA in the 1990s. Did that all happen during this period?

[User] Yeah, I don’t know if it was exactly this period or not. I know I was blamed in part for the Senate report which I was not involved in, but some people seemed to think that I was feeding them information, which I did not do. We worked on public terminals, I don’t know if that was at the end of the non-textual period or beginning of the next period. During the non-textual period we started trying to automate the Motion Picture card catalog and what we did there, and Debra got involved in that and Jennifer Nelson more or less became the first step of what became the NAIL Program or whatever it was called.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You’re talking about a time period I prefer to forget.

[Assistant] What did NAIL stand for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I don’t know if it was exactly this period or not. I know I was blamed in part for the Senate report which I was not involved in, but some people seemed to think that I was feeding them information, which I did not do. We worked on public terminals, I don’t know if that was at the end of the non-textual period or beginning of the next period. During the non-textual period we started trying to automate the Motion Picture card catalog and what we did there, and Debra got involved in that and Jennifer Nelson more or less became the first step of what became the NAIL Program or whatever it was called.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You’re talking about a time period I prefer to forget.

[Assistant] What did NAIL stand for?

[User] National Archives Information Locator or something like that. NARA Archival Information Locator, or something like that.

[Assistant] It's just another form of HMS or something like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re talking about a time period I prefer to forget.

[Assistant] What did NAIL stand for?

[User] National Archives Information Locator or something like that. NARA Archival Information Locator, or something like that.

[Assistant] It's just another form of HMS or something like that.

[User] Right. When Debra got moved out of the non-textual division into whatever it was called at the time, into that kind of planning and automation programs. That’s what she was working on. You need to interview Debra, you know what? It won’t hurt to interview her on her years.

[Assistant] I could definitely do that. You’re right. What do you mean by time of trouble?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] National Archives Information Locator or something like that. NARA Archival Information Locator, or something like that.

[Assistant] It's just another form of HMS or something like that.

[User] Right. When Debra got moved out of the non-textual division into whatever it was called at the time, into that kind of planning and automation programs. That’s what she was working on. You need to interview Debra, you know what? It won’t hurt to interview her on her years.

[Assistant] I could definitely do that. You’re right. What do you mean by time of trouble?

[User] Time of troubles was your term, not mine.

[Assistant] It was a term that was given to me to ask regarding questions about this era.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. When Debra got moved out of the non-textual division into whatever it was called at the time, into that kind of planning and automation programs. That’s what she was working on. You need to interview Debra, you know what? It won’t hurt to interview her on her years.

[Assistant] I could definitely do that. You’re right. What do you mean by time of trouble?

[User] Time of troubles was your term, not mine.

[Assistant] It was a term that was given to me to ask regarding questions about this era.

[User] I never heard it referred to that before you asked me.

[Assistant] What do you think it does refer to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don Wilson got a lot of flak over—there was a Senate report, there were some scandals in the personnel office, I think. I was out of the loop again. I was blamed for some things I didn’t do. I think that’s about the time that he approved the Constitutional Amendment that was questionable. What is it, the 27th Amendment, or something? Do you know about that?

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] Oh, let me think about that a minute. You should know about that. [Pause] The 27th Amendment as I recall prohibited the changes to the salary of Congress until the next term. They couldn’t raise or lower their pay during the current term and it is an amendment that started many, many, many, many years ago and was considered a dead letter I think because it had not been ratified by all the states and a couple states finally ratified it years, maybe 200 years, after it was first proposed and Don Wilson declared it in effect because that’s his job. One of the Archivists’ jobs is to publish the laws.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] In some ways the Archivist decides what the law is, if you know what I mean, and Don Wilson decided to publish the 27th Amendment as having been ratified and took some flak over it I believe. But I don’t remember the whole story. You ought to be able to track that down.

[Assistant] That would be considered what it means by time of troubles in ‘92.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, let me think about that a minute. You should know about that. [Pause] The 27th Amendment as I recall prohibited the changes to the salary of Congress until the next term. They couldn’t raise or lower their pay during the current term and it is an amendment that started many, many, many, many years ago and was considered a dead letter I think because it had not been ratified by all the states and a couple states finally ratified it years, maybe 200 years, after it was first proposed and Don Wilson declared it in effect because that’s his job. One of the Archivists’ jobs is to publish the laws.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] In some ways the Archivist decides what the law is, if you know what I mean, and Don Wilson decided to publish the 27th Amendment as having been ratified and took some flak over it I believe. But I don’t remember the whole story. You ought to be able to track that down.

[Assistant] That would be considered what it means by time of troubles in ‘92.

[User] That was one of the things in that time but there was some bad press. Okay, I just called up the last page in the 27th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States signed by Don W. Wilson. The 18th day of May, 1992, and certified by Martha Girard who was then Director of the Federal Register or Acting Director of the Federal Register.

[Assistant] Okay, I can see where there was a lot of contentious issues around this period.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In some ways the Archivist decides what the law is, if you know what I mean, and Don Wilson decided to publish the 27th Amendment as having been ratified and took some flak over it I believe. But I don’t remember the whole story. You ought to be able to track that down.

[Assistant] That would be considered what it means by time of troubles in ‘92.

[User] That was one of the things in that time but there was some bad press. Okay, I just called up the last page in the 27th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States signed by Don W. Wilson. The 18th day of May, 1992, and certified by Martha Girard who was then Director of the Federal Register or Acting Director of the Federal Register.

[Assistant] Okay, I can see where there was a lot of contentious issues around this period.

[User] There was some kind of personnel scandal at the time and I was… Oh, I don’t remember. I just don’t remember.

[Assistant] Let’s get back on track with your life at this point. Do you want to move on to the next section of ‘95 to ‘98 when you were Special Assistant to the Archivist for Human Resources and Information Services?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was one of the things in that time but there was some bad press. Okay, I just called up the last page in the 27th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States signed by Don W. Wilson. The 18th day of May, 1992, and certified by Martha Girard who was then Director of the Federal Register or Acting Director of the Federal Register.

[Assistant] Okay, I can see where there was a lot of contentious issues around this period.

[User] There was some kind of personnel scandal at the time and I was… Oh, I don’t remember. I just don’t remember.

[Assistant] Let’s get back on track with your life at this point. Do you want to move on to the next section of ‘95 to ‘98 when you were Special Assistant to the Archivist for Human Resources and Information Services?

[User] That was a lot of our job. I was off in a closet again but I was given things to do, if you know what I mean. I was doing odd staff jobs. I was not in charge of anything or supervising anybody. One of the things I worked on was the reimbursable funding for record centers. Steve Hannestad and I worked on that a lot. Steve worked for Claudine when she did the original NARS A-1 history. Steve was in charge of security for the archives for a while. He was around for a long time and worked for Claudine Weiher and for Adrienne Thomas. Worked for me for a short time. I guess there was something from the Bledsoe report that had to be implemented and I did something on that. I worked on the taskforce that was working on how to do the reimbursable funding for the record centers, and I was on a committee related to space planning for consolidating facilities. At that time I think Carlin was expecting me to recommend closing some of the regional archives. I was on a lot of the teams that reviewed IT contracts and other contracts related to information technology just reviewing the contracts. You had to have teams review the technical aspects of the contracts and stuff.

[Assistant] Did you recommend any regional archives to be closed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a lot of our job. I was off in a closet again but I was given things to do, if you know what I mean. I was doing odd staff jobs. I was not in charge of anything or supervising anybody. One of the things I worked on was the reimbursable funding for record centers. Steve Hannestad and I worked on that a lot. Steve worked for Claudine when she did the original NARS A-1 history. Steve was in charge of security for the archives for a while. He was around for a long time and worked for Claudine Weiher and for Adrienne Thomas. Worked for me for a short time. I guess there was something from the Bledsoe report that had to be implemented and I did something on that. I worked on the taskforce that was working on how to do the reimbursable funding for the record centers, and I was on a committee related to space planning for consolidating facilities. At that time I think Carlin was expecting me to recommend closing some of the regional archives. I was on a lot of the teams that reviewed IT contracts and other contracts related to information technology just reviewing the contracts. You had to have teams review the technical aspects of the contracts and stuff.

[Assistant] Did you recommend any regional archives to be closed?

[User] I retired.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was starting to get asked about that when I retired and then I did not and I did some things immediately postretirement to make that more difficult for the Archivist to do.

[Assistant] Going back to FRC and reimbursable funding, how did that come about the idea of reimbursable funding moving in that direction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I retired.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was starting to get asked about that when I retired and then I did not and I did some things immediately postretirement to make that more difficult for the Archivist to do.

[Assistant] Going back to FRC and reimbursable funding, how did that come about the idea of reimbursable funding moving in that direction?

[User] It had been talked about off and on for years and I’m not sure exactly how it came about because I don’t think I was privy to the decision to go ahead and do something about it but I was assigned to work on how to do it and whether we want the courts to pay as well as the agencies and stuff and we had more than one group working on it. Steve Hannestad and I were working with all of them and we ended up with a report that had recommendations and choices to be made and we had a big powwow on. I think it was December 17, 1997, and that was the day that Carlin and Bellardo were called out to be told about the coming Post story about Mrs. Carlin. At that point, by Christmas of 1997 I was spending most of my time trying to find a job.

[Assistant] Was it because you were tired of the National Archives or was it because you saw the writing on the wall that would—that you were no longer—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was starting to get asked about that when I retired and then I did not and I did some things immediately postretirement to make that more difficult for the Archivist to do.

[Assistant] Going back to FRC and reimbursable funding, how did that come about the idea of reimbursable funding moving in that direction?

[User] It had been talked about off and on for years and I’m not sure exactly how it came about because I don’t think I was privy to the decision to go ahead and do something about it but I was assigned to work on how to do it and whether we want the courts to pay as well as the agencies and stuff and we had more than one group working on it. Steve Hannestad and I were working with all of them and we ended up with a report that had recommendations and choices to be made and we had a big powwow on. I think it was December 17, 1997, and that was the day that Carlin and Bellardo were called out to be told about the coming Post story about Mrs. Carlin. At that point, by Christmas of 1997 I was spending most of my time trying to find a job.

[Assistant] Was it because you were tired of the National Archives or was it because you saw the writing on the wall that would—that you were no longer—

[User] [Interposing] I saw the writing on the wall. I became eligible to retire on August 14, 1998. On August 13, 1998, I went and had lunch with Ren Cahoon and I said I am not happy. I want a real job. Here are three possible alternatives that I would be happy with. You are the Archivist, can you recommend something else but I will not stay with the status quo and as soon as I find a job I’m leaving and this is your notice. It took me ‘til March to find a job.

[Assistant] Ren Cahoon was not amenable to you having one of the three options that you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had been talked about off and on for years and I’m not sure exactly how it came about because I don’t think I was privy to the decision to go ahead and do something about it but I was assigned to work on how to do it and whether we want the courts to pay as well as the agencies and stuff and we had more than one group working on it. Steve Hannestad and I were working with all of them and we ended up with a report that had recommendations and choices to be made and we had a big powwow on. I think it was December 17, 1997, and that was the day that Carlin and Bellardo were called out to be told about the coming Post story about Mrs. Carlin. At that point, by Christmas of 1997 I was spending most of my time trying to find a job.

[Assistant] Was it because you were tired of the National Archives or was it because you saw the writing on the wall that would—that you were no longer—

[User] [Interposing] I saw the writing on the wall. I became eligible to retire on August 14, 1998. On August 13, 1998, I went and had lunch with Ren Cahoon and I said I am not happy. I want a real job. Here are three possible alternatives that I would be happy with. You are the Archivist, can you recommend something else but I will not stay with the status quo and as soon as I find a job I’m leaving and this is your notice. It took me ‘til March to find a job.

[Assistant] Ren Cahoon was not amenable to you having one of the three options that you—

[User] [Interposing] Ren Cahoon was not amenable to the options that was within his power to grant and the Archivist was not amenable to either of the other options.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about those options at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Ren Cahoon was not amenable to the options that was within his power to grant and the Archivist was not amenable to either of the other options.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about those options at all?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I’ll mention one. That was to return to the job I had in 1970-74 in planning which they ended up giving to Jerry George and then Lori Lisowski which were reasonable candidates for the job, but that was one of the ones that I said I would be happy with. But I didn’t think they would do it anyway.

[Assistant] Okay. Anything else you want to say at this period before we move on to some general questions that will stand during the course of everything we’ve talked about and then we'll get into what you did right after and at the very end of our interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ralph Bledsoe told me when he retired, and he was not treated well the last year or two he was at the Archives, he told me that I would find it a great relief and I found that to be true. I was back in the building maybe a month or so later and Dick Higgins, who you probably don’t know, but Dick worked for Debra Wall at the time, Dick looked at me and said you know you’ve de-aged 20 years. I worked for Ancestry for almost two years. We’re done with my career at the Archives I guess. One thing I did in the immediate month after I retired is I went to meetings in New York and in Philadelphia of people trying to keep the archives from closing those regional archives branches and attended those meetings and said a few words.

[Assistant] When was this? What period was this?

[User] It would have been the spring of ‘98.

[Assistant] In some ways your connection with the regional archives was strong throughout your career. Do you think that if you were to have been kept in that position do you think things in the regions may have been different?

[User] Yes, I think the regional archives program would be very different.

[Assistant] In what ways? Or what ways would you like to have seen them be different than they are today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would have been the spring of ‘98.

[Assistant] In some ways your connection with the regional archives was strong throughout your career. Do you think that if you were to have been kept in that position do you think things in the regions may have been different?

[User] Yes, I think the regional archives program would be very different.

[Assistant] In what ways? Or what ways would you like to have seen them be different than they are today?

[User] I think you would have more records and you would be outreach engines that would have built a greater national constituency for the archives that would make it more well-known and probably have enhanced the archivist's authority to go get more records which would have made it more well-known that would have—you know what I mean? It would have gone into a feedback loop that probably would have helped the agency considerably but that's just my opinion, which is not the opinion of then or current management.

[Assistant] Why do you think it wasn’t their opinion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think the regional archives program would be very different.

[Assistant] In what ways? Or what ways would you like to have seen them be different than they are today?

[User] I think you would have more records and you would be outreach engines that would have built a greater national constituency for the archives that would make it more well-known and probably have enhanced the archivist's authority to go get more records which would have made it more well-known that would have—you know what I mean? It would have gone into a feedback loop that probably would have helped the agency considerably but that's just my opinion, which is not the opinion of then or current management.

[Assistant] Why do you think it wasn’t their opinion?

[User] I don’t know because people are controlling.

[Assistant] Do you think that there’s a disconnect between College Park or Archives I and the regions that there’s a basic misunderstanding or lack of understanding of what the regions do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you would have more records and you would be outreach engines that would have built a greater national constituency for the archives that would make it more well-known and probably have enhanced the archivist's authority to go get more records which would have made it more well-known that would have—you know what I mean? It would have gone into a feedback loop that probably would have helped the agency considerably but that's just my opinion, which is not the opinion of then or current management.

[Assistant] Why do you think it wasn’t their opinion?

[User] I don’t know because people are controlling.

[Assistant] Do you think that there’s a disconnect between College Park or Archives I and the regions that there’s a basic misunderstanding or lack of understanding of what the regions do?

[User] I can’t speak to the status quo because I have not—are we off the record or are we still on the record?

[Assistant] We’re still on the record but we can talk about that when I finish up if you like. I’ll move on to something else and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think I was highly regarded by Bahmer and Bert Rhoads and I was not highly regarded by Jim O’Neill when he became the Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] Do you have any regrets within your career? I know it’s a big question considering that it’s a long career.

[User] I thought about that question. I may have some regrets but if you ask me if I would do anything differently the answer if probably not. I have some regrets that Claudine and Reed Whitaker turned on me, but I can’t think of anything I could have done that would make that different. After reading your question I thought a lot about whether I would have done anything different and I don’t think so except maybe get out earlier.

[Assistant] I know that you had said when I asked the question about what you’re most proudest of, what contributions you’re most proud of you said to tell the truth most of the things at which I was most proud of at the time had not endured. One of your contributions was the regions and the regions have endured.

[User] But they have not endured in the way that I envisioned them or in the way that—the regions are less important in the agency today than they were when I left or when I left the program.

[Assistant] That may be true but I think due to your commitment to the regions they have at least endured to this moment in 2016.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought about that question. I may have some regrets but if you ask me if I would do anything differently the answer if probably not. I have some regrets that Claudine and Reed Whitaker turned on me, but I can’t think of anything I could have done that would make that different. After reading your question I thought a lot about whether I would have done anything different and I don’t think so except maybe get out earlier.

[Assistant] I know that you had said when I asked the question about what you’re most proudest of, what contributions you’re most proud of you said to tell the truth most of the things at which I was most proud of at the time had not endured. One of your contributions was the regions and the regions have endured.

[User] But they have not endured in the way that I envisioned them or in the way that—the regions are less important in the agency today than they were when I left or when I left the program.

[Assistant] That may be true but I think due to your commitment to the regions they have at least endured to this moment in 2016.

[User] I think the relations with the genealogical community are important and have been important and I think they have been diminished in recent years. I think that NARS A-1 could have been the foundation for a lot of automated advances that probably were delayed by five to ten years because NARS A-1 effectively got killed.

[Assistant] Can you further explain NARS A-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they have not endured in the way that I envisioned them or in the way that—the regions are less important in the agency today than they were when I left or when I left the program.

[Assistant] That may be true but I think due to your commitment to the regions they have at least endured to this moment in 2016.

[User] I think the relations with the genealogical community are important and have been important and I think they have been diminished in recent years. I think that NARS A-1 could have been the foundation for a lot of automated advances that probably were delayed by five to ten years because NARS A-1 effectively got killed.

[Assistant] Can you further explain NARS A-1?

[User] It started out basically as a way of automating the production of finding aids and if the program had evolved and the data had been migrated we would have been way ahead compared to what happened when they effectively killed the program and tossed the data and started over.

[Assistant] What was the reason why the project was killed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the relations with the genealogical community are important and have been important and I think they have been diminished in recent years. I think that NARS A-1 could have been the foundation for a lot of automated advances that probably were delayed by five to ten years because NARS A-1 effectively got killed.

[Assistant] Can you further explain NARS A-1?

[User] It started out basically as a way of automating the production of finding aids and if the program had evolved and the data had been migrated we would have been way ahead compared to what happened when they effectively killed the program and tossed the data and started over.

[Assistant] What was the reason why the project was killed?

[User] You have to ask Trudy Peterson or Virginia Purdy. I got removed. I got sent off to the Office of Records Management and then put on the shelf or put in the closet and a lot of changes were made and nobody asked me my opinion or asked me to explain why things were done the way they were done or told me what they were doing so I don't know for sure. I could say that part of it was people didn’t understand. I could say part of it was people didn’t like me but I don’t know for sure. There may have been valid criticisms of which I am unaware.

[Assistant] Then I will ask those questions of the people that I interview in the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It started out basically as a way of automating the production of finding aids and if the program had evolved and the data had been migrated we would have been way ahead compared to what happened when they effectively killed the program and tossed the data and started over.

[Assistant] What was the reason why the project was killed?

[User] You have to ask Trudy Peterson or Virginia Purdy. I got removed. I got sent off to the Office of Records Management and then put on the shelf or put in the closet and a lot of changes were made and nobody asked me my opinion or asked me to explain why things were done the way they were done or told me what they were doing so I don't know for sure. I could say that part of it was people didn’t understand. I could say part of it was people didn’t like me but I don’t know for sure. There may have been valid criticisms of which I am unaware.

[Assistant] Then I will ask those questions of the people that I interview in the future.

[User] I can’t believe that Trudy wouldn’t talk to you.

[Assistant] I think she’s been very busy. I didn’t get an indication of a refusal to answer my questions as much as she seems to be extremely busy, but she did give me contact information for two individuals that I hope to get to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have to ask Trudy Peterson or Virginia Purdy. I got removed. I got sent off to the Office of Records Management and then put on the shelf or put in the closet and a lot of changes were made and nobody asked me my opinion or asked me to explain why things were done the way they were done or told me what they were doing so I don't know for sure. I could say that part of it was people didn’t understand. I could say part of it was people didn’t like me but I don’t know for sure. There may have been valid criticisms of which I am unaware.

[Assistant] Then I will ask those questions of the people that I interview in the future.

[User] I can’t believe that Trudy wouldn’t talk to you.

[Assistant] I think she’s been very busy. I didn’t get an indication of a refusal to answer my questions as much as she seems to be extremely busy, but she did give me contact information for two individuals that I hope to get to.

[User] Dick Jacobs and Jack Landers would probably be very good people to talk to, Dick especially.

[Assistant] I do have numbers for them so I will be reaching out to them. One final question I want to ask you which might be on the mind of a lot of people who are listening here. You left the archives for Ancestry.com. Do you think that Ancestry had a hand in possibly diminishing the importance of the regions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t believe that Trudy wouldn’t talk to you.

[Assistant] I think she’s been very busy. I didn’t get an indication of a refusal to answer my questions as much as she seems to be extremely busy, but she did give me contact information for two individuals that I hope to get to.

[User] Dick Jacobs and Jack Landers would probably be very good people to talk to, Dick especially.

[Assistant] I do have numbers for them so I will be reaching out to them. One final question I want to ask you which might be on the mind of a lot of people who are listening here. You left the archives for Ancestry.com. Do you think that Ancestry had a hand in possibly diminishing the importance of the regions?

[User] I think that digitizing records and in effect making microfilm obsolete might have accomplished that but I wouldn’t blame Ancestry for that. I’d blame the changing technology if anything. The fact that Ancestry did it doesn’t mean it's Ancestry’s fault, if you know what I mean. If the church had been ahead of the game or if MyHeritage or FindMyPast or one of Ancestry’s competitors had been first to it it would have been them. It’s the changing technology and partly the inability or unwillingness or whatever of the National Archives and Records Administration to keep up or to I don’t know…

[Assistant] Private enterprise fills in where government maybe doesn’t have the financial resources to do what Ancestry eventually did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dick Jacobs and Jack Landers would probably be very good people to talk to, Dick especially.

[Assistant] I do have numbers for them so I will be reaching out to them. One final question I want to ask you which might be on the mind of a lot of people who are listening here. You left the archives for Ancestry.com. Do you think that Ancestry had a hand in possibly diminishing the importance of the regions?

[User] I think that digitizing records and in effect making microfilm obsolete might have accomplished that but I wouldn’t blame Ancestry for that. I’d blame the changing technology if anything. The fact that Ancestry did it doesn’t mean it's Ancestry’s fault, if you know what I mean. If the church had been ahead of the game or if MyHeritage or FindMyPast or one of Ancestry’s competitors had been first to it it would have been them. It’s the changing technology and partly the inability or unwillingness or whatever of the National Archives and Records Administration to keep up or to I don’t know…

[Assistant] Private enterprise fills in where government maybe doesn’t have the financial resources to do what Ancestry eventually did.

[User] That might be part of it but I wouldn’t blame it all on the financial resources. I blame it partly on the motivation or the spirit of innovation or whatever because I think that if—the archives was involved in large-scale microfilming before most anybody else. The National Archives was innovators in distributing records on microfilm but was not an innovator in distributing records in digital form. It was not a private enterprise that innovated distributing records to the public in microform, it was the National Archives followed by the Mormon Church.

[Assistant] Very good point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that digitizing records and in effect making microfilm obsolete might have accomplished that but I wouldn’t blame Ancestry for that. I’d blame the changing technology if anything. The fact that Ancestry did it doesn’t mean it's Ancestry’s fault, if you know what I mean. If the church had been ahead of the game or if MyHeritage or FindMyPast or one of Ancestry’s competitors had been first to it it would have been them. It’s the changing technology and partly the inability or unwillingness or whatever of the National Archives and Records Administration to keep up or to I don’t know…

[Assistant] Private enterprise fills in where government maybe doesn’t have the financial resources to do what Ancestry eventually did.

[User] That might be part of it but I wouldn’t blame it all on the financial resources. I blame it partly on the motivation or the spirit of innovation or whatever because I think that if—the archives was involved in large-scale microfilming before most anybody else. The National Archives was innovators in distributing records on microfilm but was not an innovator in distributing records in digital form. It was not a private enterprise that innovated distributing records to the public in microform, it was the National Archives followed by the Mormon Church.

[Assistant] Very good point.

[User] I think that the National Archives could have chosen to be the innovator in digitizing records or getting them digitized or finding someone to digitize or finding the resources to digitize them or using the genealogical community to drive demand in such a way that they would get the resources to do it and management basically chose not to do so. Whether that was an active choice or a passive choice I couldn't say. The National Archives in its basically 80-year history has been an innovator during some periods of time and a follower in others and I don’t think it's been an innovator in the last couple decades.

[Assistant] Can you venture a reason why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That might be part of it but I wouldn’t blame it all on the financial resources. I blame it partly on the motivation or the spirit of innovation or whatever because I think that if—the archives was involved in large-scale microfilming before most anybody else. The National Archives was innovators in distributing records on microfilm but was not an innovator in distributing records in digital form. It was not a private enterprise that innovated distributing records to the public in microform, it was the National Archives followed by the Mormon Church.

[Assistant] Very good point.

[User] I think that the National Archives could have chosen to be the innovator in digitizing records or getting them digitized or finding someone to digitize or finding the resources to digitize them or using the genealogical community to drive demand in such a way that they would get the resources to do it and management basically chose not to do so. Whether that was an active choice or a passive choice I couldn't say. The National Archives in its basically 80-year history has been an innovator during some periods of time and a follower in others and I don’t think it's been an innovator in the last couple decades.

[Assistant] Can you venture a reason why?

[User] The basic thing is who’s in charge and who they listen to I think. Read the Herb Angel thing. Records Management, that was an innovation that was prompted in part by the war but some of the thinking about it happened in the thirties before the war and you’ll see that more as you read the Angel thing.

[Assistant] The Herb Angel transcript?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that the National Archives could have chosen to be the innovator in digitizing records or getting them digitized or finding someone to digitize or finding the resources to digitize them or using the genealogical community to drive demand in such a way that they would get the resources to do it and management basically chose not to do so. Whether that was an active choice or a passive choice I couldn't say. The National Archives in its basically 80-year history has been an innovator during some periods of time and a follower in others and I don’t think it's been an innovator in the last couple decades.

[Assistant] Can you venture a reason why?

[User] The basic thing is who’s in charge and who they listen to I think. Read the Herb Angel thing. Records Management, that was an innovation that was prompted in part by the war but some of the thinking about it happened in the thirties before the war and you’ll see that more as you read the Angel thing.

[Assistant] The Herb Angel transcript?

[User] Right. You had a management with a lot of bright people and let the bright people go do their thing. The microfilm publication program is from the same era and some of the same people. Then both the microfilm program and the records management program got pushes later on that caused more innovation and sometimes it was external things that prompted the pushes but the archives were ahead of the games in a lot of ways. I can't think of ways that it's been ahead of the game for a long time.

[Assistant] In conclusion is there anything that you’d like to add before we stop the interview?