[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] —you moved from one task or project or doing many of them. Did you find, especially during the Mercury and Gemini days, did you find one to be more challenging than the other to accomplish in the time that was given you?

[User] Not really. You just sort of felt you were in there grinding it out. The managers would try to give people work that they knew they were capable of doing, because they wanted it done. Then I would see it as the real work was being done many grade levels above me, you see, but I could observe what was going on. It was fascinating.

[Assistant] Did your work take you down to the Cape?

[User] Yes. I can't really say I was working, but John Mayer was our branch chief, and as we were all constantly under the gun, one of his ways of thanking us was to take us down to the flights. Ostensibly we were working, you know. Actually, we would, I suppose, if something had gone wrong and you needed to come up with another plot or something of that sort. But I was able to go down on [Alan B.] Shepard's [Jr.] flight, his first flight. Then also [M.] Scott Carpenter's.\n\n On Shepard's flight, there were delays in that, and it was mainly bad weather… So I was able to get a rental car. The rental cars were piling up at the Cape, and they needed to be ferried back to Miami, so I picked up one of the cars and ferried it back, and stayed and visited with my family and kept the car till I was ready to come back, then…turned the car in and came on back just in time for the launch. But [the launch] was fascinating.

[Assistant] Tell us about all that was going on, where you were standing. Were you involved with the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. We'd have these—Bill Tindall's, his T&Os and data priority and so on. There'd be some head-banging times going on in that, you know. Somebody would have an idea that it really should be done this way, somebody else had an idea it should be done another way, and you'd get it sorted out. You'd run trade studies. It would eventually get worked out, but every little detail had to be done. Bill would put out his [memos] that people called "Tindallgrams," you see. You probably have heard a good little bit about his Tindallgrams. They were written just the way he talks, but he left out the swear words. But the way Bill talked was, a swear word was an adjective. It just flowed with the rest of his conversation, you see. [Laughter] But his Tindallgrams didn't have the swear words in them.

[Assistant] Do you remember one Tindallgram more than the other?

[User] No, not really. Not really. That was quite a while ago.

[Assistant] I'm sure they all had an impact.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] What was the mission that you remember when your rendezvous work actually took place, that you could see your efforts become reality?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. During that period of time we were still submitting our jobs to the mainframe, and I'd have priority, but it would be submit a job and wait for a few hours to get it back, and submit another job and wait for a few hours to get it back… So I did bring in my sleeping bag and sleep in the ladies' room. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Take a little nap every now and then, huh?

[User] Yes. Well, in general, I'd be able to get a block of work done and then I'd have to wait until somebody came in the next morning to decide whether they wanted to use that or not use it… So I'd get a good night's sleep, but wasting the time to go all the way home and all the way back, it would have been an hour—if they'd call me, it would have been an hour wasted or so, you know. We still had the nanny that worked with us, and my husband was real good at filling in when there was something like this going on.

[Assistant] It sounds like your partnership at home certainly helped you become definitely a success at your work.

[User] He even does all the food handling and everything… [Laughter]

[Assistant] And from what you told us, his job was very busy, so it seemed like it worked out well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, in general, I'd be able to get a block of work done and then I'd have to wait until somebody came in the next morning to decide whether they wanted to use that or not use it… So I'd get a good night's sleep, but wasting the time to go all the way home and all the way back, it would have been an hour—if they'd call me, it would have been an hour wasted or so, you know. We still had the nanny that worked with us, and my husband was real good at filling in when there was something like this going on.

[Assistant] It sounds like your partnership at home certainly helped you become definitely a success at your work.

[User] He even does all the food handling and everything… [Laughter]

[Assistant] And from what you told us, his job was very busy, so it seemed like it worked out well.

[User] Yes. We could trade off. But when he got down here—he did a good bit of his traveling when we were at Langley. He didn't do anywhere [nearly] as much [business] traveling when he was here, so we could pretty well plan our schedules at that point. Then we did have a grandmother around every now and then. [Laughter] But he was great. He's never one to say, "That's a woman's job," or anything of that sort. Whatever is to be done, he's going to do it.

[Assistant] From Skylab, you transitioned into the newest era of NASA at the time, and that was the Space Shuttle. Tell us how you were able to go from Skylab and all the work you had done from there and move into that area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] We're going to take a break.

[User] I had worked with Mrs. Rhine for quite a while, and, of course, she had been handling all of these strange incidents…and we had worked categorizing them and studying them… But once we left the Parapsychology Laboratory and had worked for NASA for quite a while, then Dr. Rhine came over to, I think, Newport News [Virginia], to give a lecture. After the lecture, we went out to dinner with them. Mrs. Rhine was asking me, "What are you doing?"\n\n "We're working for NASA."\n\n "NASA?"\n\n "Yeah, don't you know we're the group that wants to put a man into orbit."\n\n She said, "A man? Doesn't that give you the creeps?" [Laughter] Here she's working with things that just give you goosebumps, you know. Of course, this was long before Mercury. This was right at the very beginning when we just got started. She hadn't even heard of NASA. "Doesn't that give you the creeps?" [Laughter]

[Assistant] You were there at the beginning that it all started, and forty years later you're still involved with it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Does it feel like forty years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had worked with Mrs. Rhine for quite a while, and, of course, she had been handling all of these strange incidents…and we had worked categorizing them and studying them… But once we left the Parapsychology Laboratory and had worked for NASA for quite a while, then Dr. Rhine came over to, I think, Newport News [Virginia], to give a lecture. After the lecture, we went out to dinner with them. Mrs. Rhine was asking me, "What are you doing?"\n\n "We're working for NASA."\n\n "NASA?"\n\n "Yeah, don't you know we're the group that wants to put a man into orbit."\n\n She said, "A man? Doesn't that give you the creeps?" [Laughter] Here she's working with things that just give you goosebumps, you know. Of course, this was long before Mercury. This was right at the very beginning when we just got started. She hadn't even heard of NASA. "Doesn't that give you the creeps?" [Laughter]

[Assistant] You were there at the beginning that it all started, and forty years later you're still involved with it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Does it feel like forty years?

[User] No, it really doesn't. In fact, I probably have been putting off retiring because I probably will feel withdrawal symptoms. I could have retired long ago, but it's still fascinating work and it's still about the same. In fact, my buddies keep pointing at me, "She's a real strange one. She's been doing this for all these years and she's keeping at it."

[Assistant] And you're still continuing to learn today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Does it feel like forty years?

[User] No, it really doesn't. In fact, I probably have been putting off retiring because I probably will feel withdrawal symptoms. I could have retired long ago, but it's still fascinating work and it's still about the same. In fact, my buddies keep pointing at me, "She's a real strange one. She's been doing this for all these years and she's keeping at it."

[Assistant] And you're still continuing to learn today.

[User] Oh, yes. Each of the flights that we're working on, there's something new on it, you see, and it's fascinating. I'm working now with the—Rockwell was sold to Boeing, that part of Rockwell sold to Boeing, and we're now the United Space Alliance, but it's still the same thing, just continuing.

[Assistant] One significant change that occurred was that when you began your career, the United States was in a space race with Russia, and now in the recent years of your career, you have helped the United States work in a partnership as well with Russia. How was that for you to make that change in your life of one philosophy to the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Would you have changed anything during these whole forty years, if you would have done something different?

[User] Congress could have kept pouring more money in. [Laughter] And we really would have liked to have gotten started on the Space Station much sooner… In general, I've been amazed that we've been able [to accomplish so much.] Every so often with the management you'd kind of think, "Well, I really can't tell what's going on. I hope they can," you know, but in general it's all worked out. I don't think we could have done it better.\n\n I must admit that after Apollo was over, there was a slack-off. You didn't have the same goal… So now it's more like work. Before, it was, "I'm surprised they're paying me to do a job that's so interesting." Now it's a little more like work.

[Assistant] What was the greatest challenge of this career?

[User] I don't know. It always seems like I just moved into things that were convenient and let someone above me do the most work. But I would say getting up and facing a room full of people when I had a presentation to give, screwing up my courage enough to get up there. But in general, all the rest of it has pretty well just been an integral part of the puzzle.

[Assistant] And you enjoyed your work so much that you chose not to move into management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. It always seems like I just moved into things that were convenient and let someone above me do the most work. But I would say getting up and facing a room full of people when I had a presentation to give, screwing up my courage enough to get up there. But in general, all the rest of it has pretty well just been an integral part of the puzzle.

[Assistant] And you enjoyed your work so much that you chose not to move into management?

[User] Oh, yes. I sort of looked at it as if I'd raised my three children and I didn't really want to guide the careers of anybody else's children. I really enjoyed this type of work a lot more than I would management work. I did have a few opportunities when I could have, particularly when we transferred out of NASA. They really expected me to take a management position there, but management isn't the type of work that I'd like to do, and I knew it. I'd always believed in the Peter Principle, that you rise to your level of incompetence, and then you stay there… I wanted to stay just one level below my level of incompetence. [Laughter] So I do still feel like I contribute.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you. If you allow it, I'd like to ask Sandra or Carol and see if they have any questions that they might have thought about.

[User] Great.

[Assistant]
Do you have anything, Carol, that you have? Sandra, did you think of anything?

I did, actually. First I'd like to say what a fascinating career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I sort of looked at it as if I'd raised my three children and I didn't really want to guide the careers of anybody else's children. I really enjoyed this type of work a lot more than I would management work. I did have a few opportunities when I could have, particularly when we transferred out of NASA. They really expected me to take a management position there, but management isn't the type of work that I'd like to do, and I knew it. I'd always believed in the Peter Principle, that you rise to your level of incompetence, and then you stay there… I wanted to stay just one level below my level of incompetence. [Laughter] So I do still feel like I contribute.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you. If you allow it, I'd like to ask Sandra or Carol and see if they have any questions that they might have thought about.

[User] Great.

[Assistant]
Do you have anything, Carol, that you have? Sandra, did you think of anything?

I did, actually. First I'd like to say what a fascinating career.

[User] It has been.

[Assistant] A couple of things. When you came to MSC as an aerospace engineer, how about when you moved into that department, in terms of ratio of men to women? We got a feel when you were the math aide that there were more women. What about when you became an aerospace engineer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great.

[Assistant]
Do you have anything, Carol, that you have? Sandra, did you think of anything?

I did, actually. First I'd like to say what a fascinating career.

[User] It has been.

[Assistant] A couple of things. When you came to MSC as an aerospace engineer, how about when you moved into that department, in terms of ratio of men to women? We got a feel when you were the math aide that there were more women. What about when you became an aerospace engineer?

[User] Probably was even less, because before I was in a group with basically women for the math aids. I was the only woman in the Rendezvous Analysis Branch. There were just very few women all the way through JSC, in fact, all the way through my NASA experience.

[Assistant] Did that pose any obstacles for you, being the only woman in Rendezvous?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It has been.

[Assistant] A couple of things. When you came to MSC as an aerospace engineer, how about when you moved into that department, in terms of ratio of men to women? We got a feel when you were the math aide that there were more women. What about when you became an aerospace engineer?

[User] Probably was even less, because before I was in a group with basically women for the math aids. I was the only woman in the Rendezvous Analysis Branch. There were just very few women all the way through JSC, in fact, all the way through my NASA experience.

[Assistant] Did that pose any obstacles for you, being the only woman in Rendezvous?

[User] No, I never really thought about it, but my husband always told me, "This is the way they work." I'd come home saying this and this and this happened, and he'd explain it. Then my brother was one that was always competing, and once I learned to live with my brother, I could learn to live with anybody else, see. [Laughter]\n\n I did have one office mate that was just about like my brother, but he was a little bit smarter. We just sort of jostled off of one another. But I didn't ever feel really threatened by it. He did make too much noise. I'd go home at night and my head would just be ringing… I'd still be hearing him talk… But he was always into something. But I'd always come back with something. We had a good relationship.\n\n At lunch we'd work on the crossword puzzle and we'd get into competitions. So there'd be one group working on theirs and another group working on the other one. The rules were that you could use any dictionary or anything you wanted, because it takes time to look it up. It's just whoever got through first, you know. So he and I were a team, and we'd just ace them most of the time, keep score on the blackboard, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Will you indulge me in a couple more?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably was even less, because before I was in a group with basically women for the math aids. I was the only woman in the Rendezvous Analysis Branch. There were just very few women all the way through JSC, in fact, all the way through my NASA experience.

[Assistant] Did that pose any obstacles for you, being the only woman in Rendezvous?

[User] No, I never really thought about it, but my husband always told me, "This is the way they work." I'd come home saying this and this and this happened, and he'd explain it. Then my brother was one that was always competing, and once I learned to live with my brother, I could learn to live with anybody else, see. [Laughter]\n\n I did have one office mate that was just about like my brother, but he was a little bit smarter. We just sort of jostled off of one another. But I didn't ever feel really threatened by it. He did make too much noise. I'd go home at night and my head would just be ringing… I'd still be hearing him talk… But he was always into something. But I'd always come back with something. We had a good relationship.\n\n At lunch we'd work on the crossword puzzle and we'd get into competitions. So there'd be one group working on theirs and another group working on the other one. The rules were that you could use any dictionary or anything you wanted, because it takes time to look it up. It's just whoever got through first, you know. So he and I were a team, and we'd just ace them most of the time, keep score on the blackboard, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Will you indulge me in a couple more?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You talked about rendezvous, but we didn't talk as much about Gemini. I'm wondering what problems or—as Gemini is the project, of course that was the first docking missions. What did that pose for you as rendezvous analysis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did that ever slow you down, or was it a way of helping you?

[User] No, every so often I'd say, "I don't want to have to learn two systems at once." [Laughter] Because sometimes you'd have different keyboards and two different systems…and then you'd be spending all your time correcting your errors from one keyboard to the other keyboard. They might have thought I was cranky sometimes… but in general they knew I'd come around. But you'd really work—you'd get from one system on to the next system, and then once you're on that individual system, well, then things would smooth out and you'd be able to work with it.

[Assistant] It must have been a continual challenge, but it must have been very enjoyable for you to have dedicated forty years of your life to the space program.

[User] Yes. It's amazing.

[Assistant] I know that your contributions will serve it for many years to come, and we certainly appreciate you taking the time today to share those with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It wasn’t bad. I mean the crazy part is, I like beer, so we’d buy Guinness and we’d buy Bass and we’d buy all the local stuff but for like pennies on the dollar of what we were paying back in the States. But then you always had some crazy kid from like Kentucky or Tennessee and they charged him £6 and that’s like $12 bucks for a Budweiser, it’s like dude, you’re drinking the wrong stuff. I liked cheeseburgers, or I did like cheeseburgers back then. Cheeseburgers in England are way, way, way different. Like a nasty Salisbury steak on squishy bread with wilted lettuce and squishy tomatoes. It wasn’t the same thing. We got to go around a couple of the towns and villages. I mean, you know, it’s nice seeing a different culture and everything. But you’d see the vegetables out. You’d see somebody cutting meat and cutting meat on like a piece of ply board that they painted white and they cut it fresh right there and barely wiped it down so. Never bought the fresh meat. Bought the fresh beer. They had a real cool bingo game that they played, and they turned it into a beer drinking game. That was kind of fun. But when it comes to putting them back and holding them down, I’m going to say the Brits got us, on average, they got us covered. I mean we were some flyweights. They were just pounding pints left and right and left and right and left and right.

[Assistant] What was your job assignment?

[User] So the 906 Medical Admin, if you’ve ever gone to like sick call in the military and you went to outpatient records to pick up your records, I was the technician that either took your request or pulled your record. So I managed and maintained your medical record, both inpatient data, outpatient. I did Patient Squadron for about three months.

[Assistant] Did you see any combat while you were out there?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of casualties in your unit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the 906 Medical Admin, if you’ve ever gone to like sick call in the military and you went to outpatient records to pick up your records, I was the technician that either took your request or pulled your record. So I managed and maintained your medical record, both inpatient data, outpatient. I did Patient Squadron for about three months.

[Assistant] Did you see any combat while you were out there?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of casualties in your unit?

[User] No. None in my unit. We actually at the hospital for the whole time we were deployed received three patients, only one of them was a POW. That’s it. So that’s a good thing.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about a couple of your most memorable experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So for me, if it’s just like regular routine day it’s like work—like I said gamification, making it somewhat different for me mentally, challenging myself or not challenging myself trying to figure out how to pace myself. And make it like full bore, hardcore, 100% of the time doing actually just gliding. Lift weights, go play racquetball. Back in the dorms, booze and socializing.

[Assistant] Where did you travel while you were in the service?

[User] I went from basic in San Antonio to technical school in Wichita Falls. I had orders for Elmendorf, Alaska, the person I was going to be replacing decided to reenlist. And I was actually on Air Alaska Airlines. I had purchased the little earphones and was starting to chill, somebody came and knocked on my head and the only person that knocks on your head is your technical instructor. I’m like, I thought we got rid of one another. He’s like, yeah, well here’s the deal. Explained the situation. Like where am I going? He’s like you’re going to Happy Valley. I never knew that Lackland was called Happy Valley, so I went back down to San Antonio. Other than being deployed for Desert Shield, Desert Storm, I went from the permanent party side of the base to the training side of the base and back and forth, moving records around. That was it.

[Assistant] Did you take any photographs?

[User] I have some personal photographs of me in my military uniform and my wife in her military uniform, but when I was in the only thing I had, you know how you go through basic and you get your flight picture or whatever? I got the flight picture and the one that they give you, that’s like the 5 x 8 or 8 x 10 or whatever. The wife actually got a little hardbound book. She’s got lots of photos from friends that she hung out with.

[Assistant] Do you remember the day that your service ended?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went from basic in San Antonio to technical school in Wichita Falls. I had orders for Elmendorf, Alaska, the person I was going to be replacing decided to reenlist. And I was actually on Air Alaska Airlines. I had purchased the little earphones and was starting to chill, somebody came and knocked on my head and the only person that knocks on your head is your technical instructor. I’m like, I thought we got rid of one another. He’s like, yeah, well here’s the deal. Explained the situation. Like where am I going? He’s like you’re going to Happy Valley. I never knew that Lackland was called Happy Valley, so I went back down to San Antonio. Other than being deployed for Desert Shield, Desert Storm, I went from the permanent party side of the base to the training side of the base and back and forth, moving records around. That was it.

[Assistant] Did you take any photographs?

[User] I have some personal photographs of me in my military uniform and my wife in her military uniform, but when I was in the only thing I had, you know how you go through basic and you get your flight picture or whatever? I got the flight picture and the one that they give you, that’s like the 5 x 8 or 8 x 10 or whatever. The wife actually got a little hardbound book. She’s got lots of photos from friends that she hung out with.

[Assistant] Do you remember the day that your service ended?

[User] October 3, 1993, I was in San Antonio, out-processing. I already had my master’s by that time. I did my master’s in a one-year timeframe. So I was probably out of work maybe a total of six weeks until I found a job at the University of Texas Medical Branch down in Galveston.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have some personal photographs of me in my military uniform and my wife in her military uniform, but when I was in the only thing I had, you know how you go through basic and you get your flight picture or whatever? I got the flight picture and the one that they give you, that’s like the 5 x 8 or 8 x 10 or whatever. The wife actually got a little hardbound book. She’s got lots of photos from friends that she hung out with.

[Assistant] Do you remember the day that your service ended?

[User] October 3, 1993, I was in San Antonio, out-processing. I already had my master’s by that time. I did my master’s in a one-year timeframe. So I was probably out of work maybe a total of six weeks until I found a job at the University of Texas Medical Branch down in Galveston.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill?

[User] At that point in time, no. I had my bachelor’s in political science and international relations that was paid for by my family prior to going in. I got in, figured out tuition assistance while I was in, where Uncle Sam pays 75% of your stuff as long as you get your skill levels passed. I had received an inheritance while I was in, and so I used part of that money to crank through my master’s and get that knocked out. So I didn’t use the GI Bill at all. I actually ended up losing it as did the wife for not using it all for 10 years.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] October 3, 1993, I was in San Antonio, out-processing. I already had my master’s by that time. I did my master’s in a one-year timeframe. So I was probably out of work maybe a total of six weeks until I found a job at the University of Texas Medical Branch down in Galveston.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill?

[User] At that point in time, no. I had my bachelor’s in political science and international relations that was paid for by my family prior to going in. I got in, figured out tuition assistance while I was in, where Uncle Sam pays 75% of your stuff as long as you get your skill levels passed. I had received an inheritance while I was in, and so I used part of that money to crank through my master’s and get that knocked out. So I didn’t use the GI Bill at all. I actually ended up losing it as did the wife for not using it all for 10 years.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships?

[User] I had close friends while I was in but didn’t maintain any relationships afterwards. The wife did. One of her good friends prior to going in and afterwards was an airman that became godfather to one of our daughters, but he dropped off the radar for me, but she kept in touch with him from now and then.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that point in time, no. I had my bachelor’s in political science and international relations that was paid for by my family prior to going in. I got in, figured out tuition assistance while I was in, where Uncle Sam pays 75% of your stuff as long as you get your skill levels passed. I had received an inheritance while I was in, and so I used part of that money to crank through my master’s and get that knocked out. So I didn’t use the GI Bill at all. I actually ended up losing it as did the wife for not using it all for 10 years.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships?

[User] I had close friends while I was in but didn’t maintain any relationships afterwards. The wife did. One of her good friends prior to going in and afterwards was an airman that became godfather to one of our daughters, but he dropped off the radar for me, but she kept in touch with him from now and then.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?

[User] No, not really. I took advantage of state benefits in the State of Texas. Through the Texas Veterans but no, no like VFW or anything like that.

[Assistant] What did you go on to do after the military?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had close friends while I was in but didn’t maintain any relationships afterwards. The wife did. One of her good friends prior to going in and afterwards was an airman that became godfather to one of our daughters, but he dropped off the radar for me, but she kept in touch with him from now and then.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?

[User] No, not really. I took advantage of state benefits in the State of Texas. Through the Texas Veterans but no, no like VFW or anything like that.

[Assistant] What did you go on to do after the military?

[User] It was better. I was making about $1,100 every two weeks as a married individual. Well not every two weeks, on the 1st and the 15th and it wasn’t a ton of money. I got out and I started making $36,000 when I was working at the University of Texas Medical Branch and doing a whole lot more than just specialized niche areas like—I wasn’t doing the grunt work anymore as much as I was doing some of the management, some of the analytical type stuff. So did you ever hear of Steven Covey and The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People? It’s management theory. I actually helped reengineer myself out of a job at the University of Texas. We had a staff of like 30 or 40 people, and by the time I left, we were down to 6. So I left the University of Texas Medical Branch, went and became the records manager for the Houston Airport System. I’d been looking for a job for one of my employees when I came across the job with the National Archives in 1999. John Carlin was the Archivist of the United States at that time. And he was looking to bring in new blood. He wanted people who could perform records management, essentially business consultation on behalf of the National Archives to other federal entities. You didn’t have a good records management back then, and it’s highly preferable if you have an electronic record management back then and put in a package for that and haven’t looked back since.

[Assistant] Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or about the military in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'll see how many extras of these I have.

[Assistant] It's a really big team, too.

[User] Well, that's the Russians and the Americans. Unfortunately, Lee Evey doesn't work for NASA anymore, and the gentleman [Zhulin] who is in these pictures is dead now. He died of brain cancer. This is pretty much -why don't you take those, too. That was the signing of the $400 million contract, which had, nonetheless, some pretty grim moments to it where we didn't talk to each other for two days during the period. We told them to leave. That created a bigger stir with our folks than it did with them. That's Lee Evey and Nicolai Zhulin.

[Assistant] [unclear] in front of ASTP [unclear]?

[User] Right. That is the bunker, Building 265, that was a classified -that's a very skiff-like building. Lisa was in charge of getting all the furniture and phones and everything in there. We worked seven days a week from eight in the morning until midnight for -well, that was well over a month there. I went over to Russia the end of April to go over the RFP with them, go over it line by line and answer their questions, and then the team followed me over there and was there for a week or two, and then they all came back in early May and were there through the middle of June, through the summer solstice, anyway.\n\n It was an interesting evolution. We didn't get agreement for the Russians to sign it until the night before at headquarters, and some people had flown up that day. Goldin and Koptev had been there, and then they came down and did this, then they went up and did some more stuff. I don't think I'd want to sign up to do that again.

[Assistant] Sounds like time is not on your side, necessarily, when it comes to negotiation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. That is the bunker, Building 265, that was a classified -that's a very skiff-like building. Lisa was in charge of getting all the furniture and phones and everything in there. We worked seven days a week from eight in the morning until midnight for -well, that was well over a month there. I went over to Russia the end of April to go over the RFP with them, go over it line by line and answer their questions, and then the team followed me over there and was there for a week or two, and then they all came back in early May and were there through the middle of June, through the summer solstice, anyway.\n\n It was an interesting evolution. We didn't get agreement for the Russians to sign it until the night before at headquarters, and some people had flown up that day. Goldin and Koptev had been there, and then they came down and did this, then they went up and did some more stuff. I don't think I'd want to sign up to do that again.

[Assistant] Sounds like time is not on your side, necessarily, when it comes to negotiation.

[User] Right. Well, we were being forced to get this thing done by our side and take the deal that you got, and the deal was a good one, and we kind of got cross-threaded with some of the highest levels of management because we weren't getting the deal done, but they didn't understand. They would not have tolerated the deal that we had at the time. So it's one of those, "If I'm going to get shot, at least I'm going to do the best job I can at this point." It turns out that the bullets that hit you aren't necessarily manufactured by your enemy. But that's common in this type of thing.

[Assistant] And as far as the $400 million goes, what was that money, so to speak, appropriated for? What was the contract for?

[User] The money was for Space Station in Phase One.

[Assistant] And what did that entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was left up to us. I mean, we took a lot of hits on the Hill. Some of the documents that I've generated showed up there. I was in the row supporting Goldin on one hearing, and I saw Sensenbrenner's [phonetic] henchman at the time, who now works for Spacehab out of Virginia. I can't remember his name. He had one of my documents, because I saw my name in the corner, you know, from where I could sit. I normally write my name up in the right-hand corner and that's all these documents up here, but it's one of those. I remember it. I don't remember why they had it, but you know, you take heat all the time. Some people saw it as a loss of jobs. We said, "Well, there isn't anybody else up at the Space Station that we can use right now." They didn't want to hear that. It became a political football, not because it was a real subject; it was just something that they could talk about. And you find that a lot. It's sometimes frustrating, though, to hear the vehemence of Congress around things that you work on. I salute the same flag they do. I've taken the same oath that they've taken, and to have them question your patriotism or whatever, you know -

[Assistant] And I suppose it's their job, to look after that.

[User] I wish that I could get desensitized to the hyperbole that they shine the way I have to the directness and the gruffness of the Russians, but so far I haven't been able to.

[Assistant] That's a hard thing to do if you're that dedicated.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I have a question. You imply that Russia wanted to shortchange us on that $400 million. So what sorts of things did they want to leave out from what's on that list?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they did once.

[Assistant] But it was unmanned.

[User] It's too expensive to get an ESCLSS system and a power system and all that stuff, put one up with batteries.

[Assistant] And they figured they'd never really need it?

[User] No. They wanted to do it. They ran out of money. It was the fact that the Reagan administration made them spend all their money and they found out they were bankrupt. They couldn't afford buying any more paper to print money, I mean, and that's the reason why. They found out what we found out: the Shuttle is a very expensive thing to operate. So they still use their fifties' technology boosters and their sixties' technology capsules and work very fine, thank you. They build things in about a ten-year lot. I mean, you get economy of scale when you only change things every ten years. Wait the first five years to see the things that have gone wrong and use the next five years to design out those problems, make the improvements, and make a ten-year run out of it.

[Assistant] Why did they build it in the first place? Just to keep up with the Americans, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's too expensive to get an ESCLSS system and a power system and all that stuff, put one up with batteries.

[Assistant] And they figured they'd never really need it?

[User] No. They wanted to do it. They ran out of money. It was the fact that the Reagan administration made them spend all their money and they found out they were bankrupt. They couldn't afford buying any more paper to print money, I mean, and that's the reason why. They found out what we found out: the Shuttle is a very expensive thing to operate. So they still use their fifties' technology boosters and their sixties' technology capsules and work very fine, thank you. They build things in about a ten-year lot. I mean, you get economy of scale when you only change things every ten years. Wait the first five years to see the things that have gone wrong and use the next five years to design out those problems, make the improvements, and make a ten-year run out of it.

[Assistant] Why did they build it in the first place? Just to keep up with the Americans, do you think?

[User] Like they put in [Unclear]? Yes. Well, they had to have them. See, they were afraid of what it could carry up. You know, space-based lasers and all that kind of stuff. That was the real fear. But they also don't have a vehicle to bring anything back from space. I mean, they could take tons and tons and tons of stuff up there, but they can bring back grams and grams and grams.

[Assistant] Most of the data from the research [unclear] Mir.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They wanted to do it. They ran out of money. It was the fact that the Reagan administration made them spend all their money and they found out they were bankrupt. They couldn't afford buying any more paper to print money, I mean, and that's the reason why. They found out what we found out: the Shuttle is a very expensive thing to operate. So they still use their fifties' technology boosters and their sixties' technology capsules and work very fine, thank you. They build things in about a ten-year lot. I mean, you get economy of scale when you only change things every ten years. Wait the first five years to see the things that have gone wrong and use the next five years to design out those problems, make the improvements, and make a ten-year run out of it.

[Assistant] Why did they build it in the first place? Just to keep up with the Americans, do you think?

[User] Like they put in [Unclear]? Yes. Well, they had to have them. See, they were afraid of what it could carry up. You know, space-based lasers and all that kind of stuff. That was the real fear. But they also don't have a vehicle to bring anything back from space. I mean, they could take tons and tons and tons of stuff up there, but they can bring back grams and grams and grams.

[Assistant] Most of the data from the research [unclear] Mir.

[User] Right. So in that regard, this is the first time they've ever gotten anything back that's reusable. We've been carrying back a lot of their avionic stuff from vehicles that they burn up and all that. That's been quite a good savings for them.

[Assistant] We were in mission control during the last mission when they were actually closing the hatches, and it was prior to the undocking, and they were asking if they could take one of the flight engineers, one of the Russian flight engineers' backpack with them on the Shuttle so they could return it to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like they put in [Unclear]? Yes. Well, they had to have them. See, they were afraid of what it could carry up. You know, space-based lasers and all that kind of stuff. That was the real fear. But they also don't have a vehicle to bring anything back from space. I mean, they could take tons and tons and tons of stuff up there, but they can bring back grams and grams and grams.

[Assistant] Most of the data from the research [unclear] Mir.

[User] Right. So in that regard, this is the first time they've ever gotten anything back that's reusable. We've been carrying back a lot of their avionic stuff from vehicles that they burn up and all that. That's been quite a good savings for them.

[Assistant] We were in mission control during the last mission when they were actually closing the hatches, and it was prior to the undocking, and they were asking if they could take one of the flight engineers, one of the Russian flight engineers' backpack with them on the Shuttle so they could return it to him.

[User] Yes. I was a little disturbed at the late notice on that, because they knew full well about that, and having that thing coming at the eleventh hour, it means that they're trying to force something down that shouldn't come down, is my reading on it. And if it happened open-mike to the rest of the world, we'd seem like the big ogres if we turned that down.

[Assistant] Right. And everyone would say, "[Unclear]."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So in that regard, this is the first time they've ever gotten anything back that's reusable. We've been carrying back a lot of their avionic stuff from vehicles that they burn up and all that. That's been quite a good savings for them.

[Assistant] We were in mission control during the last mission when they were actually closing the hatches, and it was prior to the undocking, and they were asking if they could take one of the flight engineers, one of the Russian flight engineers' backpack with them on the Shuttle so they could return it to him.

[User] Yes. I was a little disturbed at the late notice on that, because they knew full well about that, and having that thing coming at the eleventh hour, it means that they're trying to force something down that shouldn't come down, is my reading on it. And if it happened open-mike to the rest of the world, we'd seem like the big ogres if we turned that down.

[Assistant] Right. And everyone would say, "[Unclear]."

[User] Well, there were procedures, and everybody knew about it, and it should have never come.

[Assistant] So they pulled a fast one on us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was a little disturbed at the late notice on that, because they knew full well about that, and having that thing coming at the eleventh hour, it means that they're trying to force something down that shouldn't come down, is my reading on it. And if it happened open-mike to the rest of the world, we'd seem like the big ogres if we turned that down.

[Assistant] Right. And everyone would say, "[Unclear]."

[User] Well, there were procedures, and everybody knew about it, and it should have never come.

[Assistant] So they pulled a fast one on us?

[User] Well, it's like having a three-year-old look at you with those doe eyes and then look at the ice cream cone. Life doesn't change much.

[Assistant] How has it affected the relationships with the other agencies, like ESA, the European Space Agency or NASDA, the Japanese Space Agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were procedures, and everybody knew about it, and it should have never come.

[Assistant] So they pulled a fast one on us?

[User] Well, it's like having a three-year-old look at you with those doe eyes and then look at the ice cream cone. Life doesn't change much.

[Assistant] How has it affected the relationships with the other agencies, like ESA, the European Space Agency or NASDA, the Japanese Space Agency?

[User] Well, in my opinion, it's allowed a lot of them to reclam some things that happened to them early on in the ISS program of Freedom. That's not necessarily to our advantage, but international things have a lot of posturing and a lot of arm-waving and stuff. Clearly ESA and NASDA and all that stuff have had their budget problems, too, and are having a difficult time keeping their programs sold. I don't think up front they wanted to have the Russians in there. I think now they realize that it's probably a better deal in that there's two different organizations that can carry their stuff up and they can strike the best barter deal or money deal to make things happen to their advantage. So I think that the bottom line is, it will be good for them, but I don't think you'll hear them say that. It's just not politically expedient.

[Assistant] It seems as if they're sending up cosmonauts, [unclear] cosmonauts as well. Are they learning some of the same experiences that we are for when they'll be sending people up in Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, I think that they have a real good idea that things are going to be a lot -in dealing with the Russians the way they were for the things that they did on Mir. I mean, leopards don't change their spots. And they're a lot closer to Russia than they are the United States, and so it makes sense for them to have some kind of closer relationship than they've had in the past. I think it's been good, and I think it's good, not for the internationals, but overall for the program because it's helped keep the Russians going with the funding that they've got. So I don't see any of the other internationals coming up with any human-rated vehicles in the time to come. So we're still going to be the only game in town.

[Assistant] Too costly for them.

[User] It's extremely costly to try and build the kind of infrastructure and expert base that you need to be able to go do that. It's a risky business. You have to have the right tools in place to go do it.

[Assistant] I have one more question.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Will you talk to us again when you have the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's extremely costly to try and build the kind of infrastructure and expert base that you need to be able to go do that. It's a risky business. You have to have the right tools in place to go do it.

[Assistant] I have one more question.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Will you talk to us again when you have the time?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Just because at this point we'd like to gather all the information we can, but I'd also like to get your own more personal views and some of your own involvement, more than just what we've talked about at a later date, if that works for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Evidently he knew, because he says, "Yeah, it's either for you or for Mr. Abbey."\n\n I went, "What?" So I walk over to the phone and say, "Hello." It was Arnold Nicagosian calling, but they knew who we were.

[Assistant] And individually, too.

[User] Individually.

[Assistant] That's scary.

[User] We'd seen people that were spending an inordinate amount of time looking at us while we were drinking, and, you know, this was early on in the program, so you kind of felt safe. I mean, you do. When they have that much interest in you, they're not going to let something happen to you, because they don't know what you're up to if something happens to you before that. And that was the only time I've seen anything like that, but it's an eye-opener as to what can happen when you -you know, the first time you ever go to Moscow, the first time you're going to eat dinner, and somebody walks up to you and says there's a phone call. It's like, "Who the hell even knows I'm here?" Because everybody that would have cared that I was there, was there. So, I mean, those things happen.\n\n But we have the program, the people have been really lucky. We have had extremely minor things, most of them brought on by people's own stupidity. I mean, you just don't walk around or move around a big city late at night by yourself, especially after you've been drinking. Even if you haven't been drinking, if you go into one of those places, I mean, it's a magnet for those kinds of things. Knock on wood. It's not that bad.

[Assistant] What's your favorite beer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Individually.

[Assistant] That's scary.

[User] We'd seen people that were spending an inordinate amount of time looking at us while we were drinking, and, you know, this was early on in the program, so you kind of felt safe. I mean, you do. When they have that much interest in you, they're not going to let something happen to you, because they don't know what you're up to if something happens to you before that. And that was the only time I've seen anything like that, but it's an eye-opener as to what can happen when you -you know, the first time you ever go to Moscow, the first time you're going to eat dinner, and somebody walks up to you and says there's a phone call. It's like, "Who the hell even knows I'm here?" Because everybody that would have cared that I was there, was there. So, I mean, those things happen.\n\n But we have the program, the people have been really lucky. We have had extremely minor things, most of them brought on by people's own stupidity. I mean, you just don't walk around or move around a big city late at night by yourself, especially after you've been drinking. Even if you haven't been drinking, if you go into one of those places, I mean, it's a magnet for those kinds of things. Knock on wood. It's not that bad.

[Assistant] What's your favorite beer?

[User] Budweiser.

[Assistant]
That's an inside joke.

He always wants to ask everyone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're very welcome. I'm pleased to be asked to do it.

[Assistant] Let's start back before you even went to college. Did you have any interest in airplanes or aeronautics prior to going to college?

[User] Well, you know, that was a long time ago, number one. Number two, the airplanes at that time, back in the early fifties, late forties, early fifties, were not as popular as they are today. I lived out in the country and I worked on a farm, and occasionally you'd see some airplanes go by, and, yes, I was interested and thinking that some day I'd like to be able to fly in one of those, maybe pilot it. So, yes, even before college, you'd see those flying by and I was interested.

[Assistant] Then you went to Virginia Tech and majored in mechanical engineering?

[User] That is correct. While I was there, actually before then, and I'll just do this for you, before I decided to go to VPI [Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University, popularly known as Virginia Tech], I almost joined the Air Force. At the time I wanted to fly, so I went over to take the physical, and would have probably shipped out to San Antone [San Antonio, Texas] that evening. That's what they wanted us to do, if you passed the physical. What I really wanted to do was get into OCS [Officer Candidate School], so I could try to be a pilot. It turns out I have very flat feet and they disqualified me for that. "Hey," they said, "we'll take you as an airman and you can go tonight." I declined to do that. That was probably in June or July. And I wound up going to college in the fall. So I didn't do a lot of planning on the college on the front end, but it worked out.

[Assistant] While you were in college you began a co-op [Cooperative Education Program] at Langley [Research Center].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very close call, no question. I mean, they're very lucky in a lot of ways. Some good design, too, and we had the capability to shut off the water, the main, okay? We also had another system that would provide entry. We had enough capability in that system that were redundant to also allow him to use that on orbit to stop it from spinning and still have enough to be able to come home. So it wasn't all luck.

[Assistant] True. Then you were able to make that modification which would make Apollo safer?

[User] We did that mod, but prior to the Apollo. I can't remember for sure, we'd have to go back and check the records. We may have already have made that mod before we ran into that, but it sure reconfirmed it if we hadn't. We may not have. We may have made that as a result. I think we made it before. You know, everybody knows you don't want to do this at a house either. So if you're doing wiring at the house, don't ever wire it up so just to short the ground. Gets your refrigerator hot. Because if you do, you touch it, you get shocked. So, wire it the other way. We knew that, but the electronics and switching circuits just were not available in the size and weight that we had to have on Gemini and Mercury—Mercury was wired the same way—to allow that.

[Assistant] You mentioned Mercury just briefly. Did you have any experience with the Mercury RCS?

[User] Very little. Little bit, in that they were flying it—they weren't flying it. It was basically already developed and they were flying it after I was over in that group. There was a guy sitting at the desk next to me who was responsible for that, so frequently we talked and I understood what was happening. But I didn't do much personal work on Mercury. Some, but not a great deal.

[Assistant] Did you work on the orbit attitude maneuver system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were they planning on using retro rockets for both of those systems and were you involved?

[User] My memory is a little hazy, to be honest. I suspicion, now that you reminded me, that the Rogallo wing probably did not require, it may have had small enough velocities. The Gemini vehicle may have had wheels on it or skids. It had skids, now that I think about it. It had skids on it that would allow it to kind of land with some lateral velocity, and that's what the wing was trying to do. So I believe that the retro rockets would have only been used with the parasail system. So, yes, I stand corrected on that. You're right.

[Assistant] I just wasn't sure.

[User] I don't think the Rogallo wing one would require that. Now, we had enough other difficulties and people were also concerned with the vehicle tumbling and various other things, depending on how the skids touched down. But the retro rockets was for the other parachute system.

[Assistant]
Yes, the record was kind of vague on that. Okay. That's all I had. Thank you.

Before we wrap up, we talked about a lot of problems that the reaction control systems, OAMS systems, had on Gemini, that you learned from and were able to apply to Apollo. Did you have any problems on Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was one of the first two folks that I met when our class went down there. I don’t remember how it happened. I think we all decided we were going to go to a bar. We had something to do the next morning, and if everybody was there, we were just going to meet all over at some place. There were two guys that I recognized or knew, and I walked up and I said, “Hi, I’m Rhea Seddon.” One was Mike Coats, and one was Hoot [Robert L.] Gibson. I thought these are good-looking men, both with big blue eyes. I feel like I’ve known Mike for a long time. Good, good man.

[Assistant] He seems like a nice guy. When we were talking to Kathy [Kathryn D. Sullivan], she was talking about weighing who might go first, and she mentioned you in a red Corvette. Did you have a red Corvette when you first came to JSC?

[User] Her memory is good but not that good. I had a Silver Anniversary Corvette. It was time for me to get a new car, and I figured I might get something really cool and had a friend who had an order in for one, but didn’t want it. He helped me get the one that he had ordered. It was neat; I was pretty flashy. I had forgotten that.

[Assistant] She didn’t think she would be first to fly. She was like well, “We have Sally [K. Ride] and Anna [L. Fisher], and Rhea comes in with this beautiful red Corvette.” I just thought it was an interesting story. I thought I would ask you.

[User] It was a silver one, it was new, and it was beautiful.

[Assistant] What a fun car, at a fun age.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Her memory is good but not that good. I had a Silver Anniversary Corvette. It was time for me to get a new car, and I figured I might get something really cool and had a friend who had an order in for one, but didn’t want it. He helped me get the one that he had ordered. It was neat; I was pretty flashy. I had forgotten that.

[Assistant] She didn’t think she would be first to fly. She was like well, “We have Sally [K. Ride] and Anna [L. Fisher], and Rhea comes in with this beautiful red Corvette.” I just thought it was an interesting story. I thought I would ask you.

[User] It was a silver one, it was new, and it was beautiful.

[Assistant] What a fun car, at a fun age.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] The other thing I wanted to ask you about. I asked Kathy about this as well. You had mentioned the Cape Crusader yesterday. I’d asked her where the term came from, because I can’t remember anybody in the Apollo Program ever telling us where that came from.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a silver one, it was new, and it was beautiful.

[Assistant] What a fun car, at a fun age.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] The other thing I wanted to ask you about. I asked Kathy about this as well. You had mentioned the Cape Crusader yesterday. I’d asked her where the term came from, because I can’t remember anybody in the Apollo Program ever telling us where that came from.

[User] The cartoon character.

[Assistant] Is it from Batman?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] The other thing I wanted to ask you about. I asked Kathy about this as well. You had mentioned the Cape Crusader yesterday. I’d asked her where the term came from, because I can’t remember anybody in the Apollo Program ever telling us where that came from.

[User] The cartoon character.

[Assistant] Is it from Batman?

[User] No. I don’t think so. I think there was a cartoon character called that. Have you tried Googling it?

[Assistant] No, I’ll have to go out and see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The cartoon character.

[Assistant] Is it from Batman?

[User] No. I don’t think so. I think there was a cartoon character called that. Have you tried Googling it?

[Assistant] No, I’ll have to go out and see.

[User] Batman was the Caped Crusader, maybe that’s where it came from. I recall that there was a little cartoon character that either that was their nickname or that’s what they were called, crusader somebody. It came out of comic books or TV, and it was a silly thing. Not that we all took ourselves very seriously.

[Assistant] You had pretty serious positions. Yesterday you were talking about your engagement on Valentine’s Day of ’81. Do you want to pick up there? We’ll put all the rest of this in the transcript too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I don’t think so. I think there was a cartoon character called that. Have you tried Googling it?

[Assistant] No, I’ll have to go out and see.

[User] Batman was the Caped Crusader, maybe that’s where it came from. I recall that there was a little cartoon character that either that was their nickname or that’s what they were called, crusader somebody. It came out of comic books or TV, and it was a silly thing. Not that we all took ourselves very seriously.

[Assistant] You had pretty serious positions. Yesterday you were talking about your engagement on Valentine’s Day of ’81. Do you want to pick up there? We’ll put all the rest of this in the transcript too.

[User] Hoot and I knew we were pretty serious. We went out to dinner for Valentine’s Day, and we went to Galveston to one of the seafood restaurants there and walked out on the pier, and in the midst of that he asked me to marry him. Of course I said yes, because we’d been thinking about that for a while and then we discussed when. We were both just so incredibly busy getting ready for STS-1 that we knew that we would have to wait till after that got off the ground to set a date and begin the planning. We did.

[Assistant] I remember reading the Hoot was contacted by Brides Magazine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Batman was the Caped Crusader, maybe that’s where it came from. I recall that there was a little cartoon character that either that was their nickname or that’s what they were called, crusader somebody. It came out of comic books or TV, and it was a silly thing. Not that we all took ourselves very seriously.

[Assistant] You had pretty serious positions. Yesterday you were talking about your engagement on Valentine’s Day of ’81. Do you want to pick up there? We’ll put all the rest of this in the transcript too.

[User] Hoot and I knew we were pretty serious. We went out to dinner for Valentine’s Day, and we went to Galveston to one of the seafood restaurants there and walked out on the pier, and in the midst of that he asked me to marry him. Of course I said yes, because we’d been thinking about that for a while and then we discussed when. We were both just so incredibly busy getting ready for STS-1 that we knew that we would have to wait till after that got off the ground to set a date and begin the planning. We did.

[Assistant] I remember reading the Hoot was contacted by Brides Magazine.

[User] I didn’t know that.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him when we talk to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hoot and I knew we were pretty serious. We went out to dinner for Valentine’s Day, and we went to Galveston to one of the seafood restaurants there and walked out on the pier, and in the midst of that he asked me to marry him. Of course I said yes, because we’d been thinking about that for a while and then we discussed when. We were both just so incredibly busy getting ready for STS-1 that we knew that we would have to wait till after that got off the ground to set a date and begin the planning. We did.

[Assistant] I remember reading the Hoot was contacted by Brides Magazine.

[User] I didn’t know that.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him when we talk to him.

[User] By the way, he said he would be happy to talk to you, it’s just today is insane, and his schedule is insane. He does have your email, and he will eventually be happy to sit down.

[Assistant] We’ll figure whenever he’s got that block we’ll be ready.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t know that.

[Assistant] We’ll have to ask him when we talk to him.

[User] By the way, he said he would be happy to talk to you, it’s just today is insane, and his schedule is insane. He does have your email, and he will eventually be happy to sit down.

[Assistant] We’ll figure whenever he’s got that block we’ll be ready.

[User] I told him that it’d be wonderful to have a transcript of things that the kids kind of knew or didn’t know. He’s excited about doing that.

[Assistant]
We’ll look forward to talking with him.

I was also thinking, if you want, we could try a joint session between the two of you, and then do his oral history separately, if you want to do something like that. That might be interesting. Also People Magazine covered your [marriage]. I think they had a three-page spread. They talked about the possibility of you two flying in space at some point. Was that ever a reality, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By the way, he said he would be happy to talk to you, it’s just today is insane, and his schedule is insane. He does have your email, and he will eventually be happy to sit down.

[Assistant] We’ll figure whenever he’s got that block we’ll be ready.

[User] I told him that it’d be wonderful to have a transcript of things that the kids kind of knew or didn’t know. He’s excited about doing that.

[Assistant]
We’ll look forward to talking with him.

I was also thinking, if you want, we could try a joint session between the two of you, and then do his oral history separately, if you want to do something like that. That might be interesting. Also People Magazine covered your [marriage]. I think they had a three-page spread. They talked about the possibility of you two flying in space at some point. Was that ever a reality, do you think?

[User] No, I didn’t feel like NASA was going to do that. I suppose there was an unwritten rule that they didn’t put married couples in the same flight. Not that anybody ever said, “No, that won’t ever happen,” but I think I knew that. I only vaguely remember that article. But yes I guess they did. It was unusual.

[Assistant] I thought it was interesting. Did Anna Fisher and Bill [William F.] Fisher offer any advice? I know that they had a lot of interest in the two of them because she was selected, he wasn’t, but they were married, and then he got selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I told him that it’d be wonderful to have a transcript of things that the kids kind of knew or didn’t know. He’s excited about doing that.

[Assistant]
We’ll look forward to talking with him.

I was also thinking, if you want, we could try a joint session between the two of you, and then do his oral history separately, if you want to do something like that. That might be interesting. Also People Magazine covered your [marriage]. I think they had a three-page spread. They talked about the possibility of you two flying in space at some point. Was that ever a reality, do you think?

[User] No, I didn’t feel like NASA was going to do that. I suppose there was an unwritten rule that they didn’t put married couples in the same flight. Not that anybody ever said, “No, that won’t ever happen,” but I think I knew that. I only vaguely remember that article. But yes I guess they did. It was unusual.

[Assistant] I thought it was interesting. Did Anna Fisher and Bill [William F.] Fisher offer any advice? I know that they had a lot of interest in the two of them because she was selected, he wasn’t, but they were married, and then he got selected.

[User] Then he selected. I don’t remember a whole lot of discussion about that. Their situation was a little different. We had talked over time about the two of them, but I don’t remember there being any discussion about it. I think the only thing that Bill, Anna, and I did together—after Kristin was born someone requested the four of us with our two babies, and pictures were made for some magazine or newspaper, because I’ve got the picture. Kristin probably two months old, and Paul squirming trying to get away. They were just about a year’s difference between them.

[Assistant] I’ll have to go and see if I can find it. There was a married couple on your husband’s flight, on STS-47.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t feel like NASA was going to do that. I suppose there was an unwritten rule that they didn’t put married couples in the same flight. Not that anybody ever said, “No, that won’t ever happen,” but I think I knew that. I only vaguely remember that article. But yes I guess they did. It was unusual.

[Assistant] I thought it was interesting. Did Anna Fisher and Bill [William F.] Fisher offer any advice? I know that they had a lot of interest in the two of them because she was selected, he wasn’t, but they were married, and then he got selected.

[User] Then he selected. I don’t remember a whole lot of discussion about that. Their situation was a little different. We had talked over time about the two of them, but I don’t remember there being any discussion about it. I think the only thing that Bill, Anna, and I did together—after Kristin was born someone requested the four of us with our two babies, and pictures were made for some magazine or newspaper, because I’ve got the picture. Kristin probably two months old, and Paul squirming trying to get away. They were just about a year’s difference between them.

[Assistant] I’ll have to go and see if I can find it. There was a married couple on your husband’s flight, on STS-47.

[User] They married each other after they’d been training for a long time. They didn’t have any children, and it was difficult to decide who to take off the flight, if they were going to do that, and so they let them fly together. They did tell us it was an unwritten rule, that they really didn’t want to do that. There were several married couples along the way in the Astronaut Office. I guess they just wanted to formally tell us, “We’re making an exception for [N.] Jan [Davis] and Mark [C. Lee], but we don’t want any other married couples to fly together.”

[Assistant] The press was definitely interested in that flight. Did you offer any advice to Sally and Steve [Steven A. Hawley], when they announced that they were engaged?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then he selected. I don’t remember a whole lot of discussion about that. Their situation was a little different. We had talked over time about the two of them, but I don’t remember there being any discussion about it. I think the only thing that Bill, Anna, and I did together—after Kristin was born someone requested the four of us with our two babies, and pictures were made for some magazine or newspaper, because I’ve got the picture. Kristin probably two months old, and Paul squirming trying to get away. They were just about a year’s difference between them.

[Assistant] I’ll have to go and see if I can find it. There was a married couple on your husband’s flight, on STS-47.

[User] They married each other after they’d been training for a long time. They didn’t have any children, and it was difficult to decide who to take off the flight, if they were going to do that, and so they let them fly together. They did tell us it was an unwritten rule, that they really didn’t want to do that. There were several married couples along the way in the Astronaut Office. I guess they just wanted to formally tell us, “We’re making an exception for [N.] Jan [Davis] and Mark [C. Lee], but we don’t want any other married couples to fly together.”

[Assistant] The press was definitely interested in that flight. Did you offer any advice to Sally and Steve [Steven A. Hawley], when they announced that they were engaged?

[User] No, I don’t think they needed any advice. We congratulated them, thought that was swell, and knew them both very well. We were happy for them.

[Assistant] Was there much interest in the wedding when you came here to be married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They married each other after they’d been training for a long time. They didn’t have any children, and it was difficult to decide who to take off the flight, if they were going to do that, and so they let them fly together. They did tell us it was an unwritten rule, that they really didn’t want to do that. There were several married couples along the way in the Astronaut Office. I guess they just wanted to formally tell us, “We’re making an exception for [N.] Jan [Davis] and Mark [C. Lee], but we don’t want any other married couples to fly together.”

[Assistant] The press was definitely interested in that flight. Did you offer any advice to Sally and Steve [Steven A. Hawley], when they announced that they were engaged?

[User] No, I don’t think they needed any advice. We congratulated them, thought that was swell, and knew them both very well. We were happy for them.

[Assistant] Was there much interest in the wedding when you came here to be married?

[User] There was. There were press pictures and things like that, I think, but this is a fairly small town. The press wasn’t allowed in the church or in the reception. They snapped some photos of us coming out of the church, but that was about it. There was a big write-up in the local paper, because it was of local interest. We had a very small wedding at the church that my great-grandparents attended. Just some very close family friends, because it was a small church. Then we had a big reception out at the country club so it was a good time. There were a fair number of my friends still in town, but a lot of friends, people that my parents knew well, so it was probably 80, 90 percent my parents’ friends. My mother had died by then. My mother died in ’76, rather suddenly. I married in ’81. It was mostly my dad and couples and friends that they had.

[Assistant] You married very soon after STS-1 launched.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think they needed any advice. We congratulated them, thought that was swell, and knew them both very well. We were happy for them.

[Assistant] Was there much interest in the wedding when you came here to be married?

[User] There was. There were press pictures and things like that, I think, but this is a fairly small town. The press wasn’t allowed in the church or in the reception. They snapped some photos of us coming out of the church, but that was about it. There was a big write-up in the local paper, because it was of local interest. We had a very small wedding at the church that my great-grandparents attended. Just some very close family friends, because it was a small church. Then we had a big reception out at the country club so it was a good time. There were a fair number of my friends still in town, but a lot of friends, people that my parents knew well, so it was probably 80, 90 percent my parents’ friends. My mother had died by then. My mother died in ’76, rather suddenly. I married in ’81. It was mostly my dad and couples and friends that they had.

[Assistant] You married very soon after STS-1 launched.

[User] Yes. We married May 30th. The launch was the 12th of April, and the landing was the 14th. Then I came home and planned a wedding real quick. The biggest thing was getting the country club, because it’s usually booked up for weddings that time of year. But because it wasn’t quite June, it was available. We just scurried around and got it all done.

[Assistant] How would you describe your family experience, having grown up in a household where your parents weren’t astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. That worked and was acceptable, and they gave us a chance to try it out.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about testing that product?

[User] I’m trying to think. I think we flew in the KC-135. I remember the idea was to try to get two voids during the flight so you didn’t just have one opportunity. We would try to go with a full bladder and void. They had a little bathroom area or curtained area where we could be. Then try to drink enough water that you could pee again before the thing landed. I don’t remember an awful lot about it. It was a fairly simple solution that was acceptable. At the time I don’t think they had diapers for adults so this was a very expensive thing. They measured you and form-fitted you. It was like a panty girdle with an absorbent middle section. I think there was comment about how much they each cost. We didn’t have anything to do with it. We needed something. Obviously we couldn’t use the male variety. We didn’t take them on cross-country trips with us or anything like that. We had a few to try out and then once we were happy with it they just put it on board for us.

[Assistant] Were there ever any complaints or concerns that anyone voiced?

[User] I don’t think really. They’re fairly comfortable. I think the only thing is because of the padding they made you look heavy. You put your flight suit on, and you looked like a sausage. I never did any of the suit training, so I can’t tell you whether people were comfortable in the EVA suits. I thought of all of the ideas they came up with, that one was the simplest and easiest and most reliable.

[Assistant] What about the Shuttle’s waste collection system? They had to come up with a way for women to use the bathroom in space. Did you play a role in testing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I got called over one day to test the seat belt on the toilet. They had several different designs, you know a seat belt type seat belt. But you couldn’t get stable that way. They finally came up with the thigh bars. That was one of the things that I tried out. I went over to the water tank on scuba and just sat on a simulated toilet seat and tried seat belt this way, seat belt this way, thigh bars this way. It was pretty obvious to everybody who tried it that the thigh bars were the things you needed and that they were very simple, easy to use, and kept you very stable, didn’t have to hold on to anything. That was my big contribution to the space program. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Quite important actually. Did you do any testing in the KC-135? Was that required as well?

[User] Yes. I remember testing out the urine funnel on the KC. It wasn’t entirely satisfactory. Number one, you had 30 seconds or less. The KC, it’s sort of weightless, but because it’s a little bit up and down, you can’t make it entirely smooth. I’m not sure that we were really comfortable that it would work well for women, the urine funnel, until Sally flew and said, “Works fine.” So that was one that in theory it could work; it worked sort of okay on the KC, but you really didn’t get a good chance to use it until you got to space. Everybody knew that, and had extra toilet paper, so that if urine got out, you got to go chase it around.

[Assistant] Did it perform well on Sally’s flight?

[User] She said it did. Seems like we talked after her flight and asked a few questions about the stuff that was female-related, not much stuff. The toilet was. She said, “Yes, make sure you do this, make sure you do that.” I don’t even remember what it was. She said, “It works fine.”

[Assistant] What were some of the other female issues you guys discussed when she came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] What about undergarments in space? Was that something that you supplied or was it something NASA supplied?

[User] I think that’s something that might have changed, that at first we supplied them. That’s what it was, I think. We went out and bought them. “These are what we’re happy with; this is the size I need.” They had certain specifications about what you could and couldn’t have. We bought them, they reimbursed us, and then they stowed them on board. Then, I think, they discovered sports bras that don’t have to be individually sized. The women were wearing those to run in anyway. So I think that changed. It may be different now, but it seems like to me we went to standard underwear. It was yours, and it got stowed for you, but it wasn’t stuff that you went out and bought. I think they bought it for us. I can’t remember exactly, but I think that’s close to what it was.

[Assistant] Where were these items stowed?

[User] You had a clothes locker. Everybody had, I think, two clothes lockers. Everything was rolled up very tight and put in the clothing lockers. You knew where yours was, and everybody else knew where theirs was. It had your color on it. All your stuff was in there. Of course it was packed for launch. It was all just wadded up as tight as they could get it. If you ever took stuff out, if it ever came out, you’d never get it back in.

[Assistant] In Amy’s dissertation she had a quote from Kathy about a dress code. Do you remember any discussions about a dress code for female astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was unspoken, because certainly the six of us didn’t get together and say. “Well I think I’ll be first.” “No, I’ll be first.” Maybe there were groups of two that got together that said, “How come she got that assignment?” I don’t remember there really being any discussion about it. We were all doing different things. We all had our own specialty areas. I don’t remember there being discussion about it.\n\n As I recall, we probably all congratulated Sally and told her how happy we were for her and told her that we were her backup crew, all of us. We were there to support her in that flight, because it was important to all of us that she do well. I think she knew that, and it was a responsibility for her. She didn’t want to mess anything up and have somebody say, “Oh well, that’s what you get when you fly women.” She trained hard; she did a great job. She got along well with her crew; the flight was fine. It all just worked out great.

[Assistant] Were there ever any issues that popped up in the midst of training that you all had to deal with?

[User] Well, as I say, Sally often asked us, “What do we want to do about this, and this question has been asked, how do we deal with it?” Other than the ones that I’ve talked about, I don’t really remember any.

[Assistant] Were you at her launch?

[User] I was. We all went down there for her launch. John Denver was there. Had dinner with Bonnie [J. Dunbar] and John Denver, which was fun. John Denver sang at the reception the night before for her. It was a spectacular launch. Lots of important women were there. It was pretty exciting, and all of us were very happy for her and had our fingers crossed that all was going to go well. It did. It was a very important milestone, I think, for NASA, and it was good to be a part of it.

[Assistant] Tell us about the day that you learned you had been selected for a flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, 1943. I worked for two years. I left in ’45 and got married. In those two years, I learned a lot. In fact, Richard [V.] Rhode—I don’t know whether you know who he is—he was the section head. Actually, the whole Aircraft Loads Division was under him. He finally went to Washington [DC]. Then Phil [Philip] Donely became my section head. He was very good to me. He gave me a lot of good jobs and so forth—interesting jobs. Do you know what the V-G recorders were?

[Assistant] You mentioned that on the phone, so I was going to get you to explain that and tell me what you did with that.

[User] A V-G recorder measures gravity and speed. The two are related quite a bit. That’s what Phil Donely gave me. I was in charge of that. What I had to do—they put it on the P-40 [Warhawk “single-seat” fighter] plane. That’s what the V-G recorder was put on. I would have to crawl up in the cockpit. Of course, that was in the days before girls wore slacks. The plane had to be running. You had to smoke a little glass and put it in, and that would give you a basic curve. You measured everything from that one curve. The motor had to be running on the plane when you did that. It would scratch a little line. That would be the zero [basic] curve, because you weren’t going anywhere. The pilots were lined up on the side. Oh, gracious! When they turned that motor on, you can guess what happened. I was pretty embarrassed. My dress went straight up over my head.

[Assistant] They were lined up, probably knowing what was going to happen.

[User] They knew what was going to happen. They knew every bit of what was going to happen. I got even with them later.

[Assistant] I definitely want to hear that!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A V-G recorder measures gravity and speed. The two are related quite a bit. That’s what Phil Donely gave me. I was in charge of that. What I had to do—they put it on the P-40 [Warhawk “single-seat” fighter] plane. That’s what the V-G recorder was put on. I would have to crawl up in the cockpit. Of course, that was in the days before girls wore slacks. The plane had to be running. You had to smoke a little glass and put it in, and that would give you a basic curve. You measured everything from that one curve. The motor had to be running on the plane when you did that. It would scratch a little line. That would be the zero [basic] curve, because you weren’t going anywhere. The pilots were lined up on the side. Oh, gracious! When they turned that motor on, you can guess what happened. I was pretty embarrassed. My dress went straight up over my head.

[Assistant] They were lined up, probably knowing what was going to happen.

[User] They knew what was going to happen. They knew every bit of what was going to happen. I got even with them later.

[Assistant] I definitely want to hear that!

[User] Then, I would have to go back in the plane, take the glass out, plot the curve, and work out the equations. That was a very, very good opportunity for me, which I enjoyed. I just loved doing that. I did that for almost two years. [Figures 2 and 2(a)]

[Assistant] Were there other women that were up in the planes putting things in them, or were you the only one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They knew what was going to happen. They knew every bit of what was going to happen. I got even with them later.

[Assistant] I definitely want to hear that!

[User] Then, I would have to go back in the plane, take the glass out, plot the curve, and work out the equations. That was a very, very good opportunity for me, which I enjoyed. I just loved doing that. I did that for almost two years. [Figures 2 and 2(a)]

[Assistant] Were there other women that were up in the planes putting things in them, or were you the only one?

[User] I was the only one.

[Assistant] That was quite an accomplishment for that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then, I would have to go back in the plane, take the glass out, plot the curve, and work out the equations. That was a very, very good opportunity for me, which I enjoyed. I just loved doing that. I did that for almost two years. [Figures 2 and 2(a)]

[Assistant] Were there other women that were up in the planes putting things in them, or were you the only one?

[User] I was the only one.

[Assistant] That was quite an accomplishment for that time.

[User] Yes, it was very unusual, but Phil Donely—he was determined that he was going to make an engineer out of me. He was so disappointed when I got married. That was okay, too, but he was always very good to me. I worked the graveyard shift a lot, and that meant I had to get on the bus at midnight and ride the bus about—oh, gracious—it seemed like at least 40 miles to where I lived, even though it was more like 7 miles. Woo Matheny lived about two blocks from where I lived. That rascal—he got on the bus with me and got off the bus with me, walked me to my door, told me goodnight, and he walked home.

[Assistant] That was nice of him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the only one.

[Assistant] That was quite an accomplishment for that time.

[User] Yes, it was very unusual, but Phil Donely—he was determined that he was going to make an engineer out of me. He was so disappointed when I got married. That was okay, too, but he was always very good to me. I worked the graveyard shift a lot, and that meant I had to get on the bus at midnight and ride the bus about—oh, gracious—it seemed like at least 40 miles to where I lived, even though it was more like 7 miles. Woo Matheny lived about two blocks from where I lived. That rascal—he got on the bus with me and got off the bus with me, walked me to my door, told me goodnight, and he walked home.

[Assistant] That was nice of him.

[User] He did that because he did not want me to be walking at midnight by myself. So, you see—the Lord took care of me. I felt very blessed. I really did feel blessed. That’s most of my career in [NACA]. I worked with the V-G recorder. They did also put me in one of the tanks [Langley Tow Tanks] one time for a short time. We had a couple of tanks where they did experiments on the water. The tanks were full of water. You probably never heard of that, but we did have a couple of those. I did a little bit of stuff, but I don’t really remember exactly what I did on them. I do remember going into the tank and taking data at that time. [Figure 3]

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I didn’t realize they did that at Langley.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did that because he did not want me to be walking at midnight by myself. So, you see—the Lord took care of me. I felt very blessed. I really did feel blessed. That’s most of my career in [NACA]. I worked with the V-G recorder. They did also put me in one of the tanks [Langley Tow Tanks] one time for a short time. We had a couple of tanks where they did experiments on the water. The tanks were full of water. You probably never heard of that, but we did have a couple of those. I did a little bit of stuff, but I don’t really remember exactly what I did on them. I do remember going into the tank and taking data at that time. [Figure 3]

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I didn’t realize they did that at Langley.

[User] I can see it right now. It was close to the full-scale tunnel. Another thing that I had that I thought was so beneficial to me—I got acquainted with a lot of the test pilots, therefore, that opened up avenues for me to learn a lot about what they were doing.\n\n I remember Don [Donald E.] Hewes. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Don. Don is the one that invented the apparatus that taught the people that went to the Moon to walk on the Moon [Reduced Gravity Simulator]. The gravity, of course, is different. Don was an engineer, he was a private pilot and a very good friend of mine, so therefore, I got to know him pretty well and what he was doing, too. He was the one who invented that apparatus.

[Assistant] Was it like a simulator?

[User] Yes. It was on the West Area of the field, but there was a big, big space. The test pilots were the people that used it. They put a harness around them so that the gravity was different, so therefore, they simulated the conditions that it would be on the Moon. Don is the one who invented it—he was lying on the sofa, he said, when he thought of it.

[Assistant] You never know where that’s going to hit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was on the West Area of the field, but there was a big, big space. The test pilots were the people that used it. They put a harness around them so that the gravity was different, so therefore, they simulated the conditions that it would be on the Moon. Don is the one who invented it—he was lying on the sofa, he said, when he thought of it.

[Assistant] You never know where that’s going to hit.

[User] You never know what’s coming through his head, too. I knew Don very well. He was a singer, too.

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yes, we sang a lot together, so I knew him a lot. His wife was one of my best friends. She just died about a year ago. Don built his own plane and put a Volkswagen engine in it. They flew that plane all over the country. It’s amazing. They found him lying under that plane [at Patrick Henry Airport], dead [he had a heart attack]. That’s how he died—where he wanted to be.

[Assistant] Doing what he wanted to do, I’m sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You never know what’s coming through his head, too. I knew Don very well. He was a singer, too.

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yes, we sang a lot together, so I knew him a lot. His wife was one of my best friends. She just died about a year ago. Don built his own plane and put a Volkswagen engine in it. They flew that plane all over the country. It’s amazing. They found him lying under that plane [at Patrick Henry Airport], dead [he had a heart attack]. That’s how he died—where he wanted to be.

[Assistant] Doing what he wanted to do, I’m sure.

[User] You’ve just about got my whole story.

[Assistant] You were fresh out of college and relatively young. What did your family think when you were going to get on this train and come all of the way to Hampton by yourself? Well, you had other people, but young girls travelling and then not really knowing what you were coming to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we sang a lot together, so I knew him a lot. His wife was one of my best friends. She just died about a year ago. Don built his own plane and put a Volkswagen engine in it. They flew that plane all over the country. It’s amazing. They found him lying under that plane [at Patrick Henry Airport], dead [he had a heart attack]. That’s how he died—where he wanted to be.

[Assistant] Doing what he wanted to do, I’m sure.

[User] You’ve just about got my whole story.

[Assistant] You were fresh out of college and relatively young. What did your family think when you were going to get on this train and come all of the way to Hampton by yourself? Well, you had other people, but young girls travelling and then not really knowing what you were coming to.

[User] Well, you know, my daddy was a pharmacist. He had two drugstores. It was a tough life, because it was back in the days—it was during the Depression, and so, therefore, they were happy I had a job. That’s the honest truth. They were just happy that I had a job and that I could support myself. In those days, we didn’t have to worry about our safety. You didn’t. I never felt threatened or anything—never. Therefore, I felt that I was perfectly safe everywhere I went. It never occurred to me that I could have been in any danger.\n\n I had a job that paid well and that was interesting. I was never bored. I was fortunate that I had people that were over me that gave me credit for having some sense.

[Assistant] Even today, women have problems with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’ve just about got my whole story.

[Assistant] You were fresh out of college and relatively young. What did your family think when you were going to get on this train and come all of the way to Hampton by yourself? Well, you had other people, but young girls travelling and then not really knowing what you were coming to.

[User] Well, you know, my daddy was a pharmacist. He had two drugstores. It was a tough life, because it was back in the days—it was during the Depression, and so, therefore, they were happy I had a job. That’s the honest truth. They were just happy that I had a job and that I could support myself. In those days, we didn’t have to worry about our safety. You didn’t. I never felt threatened or anything—never. Therefore, I felt that I was perfectly safe everywhere I went. It never occurred to me that I could have been in any danger.\n\n I had a job that paid well and that was interesting. I was never bored. I was fortunate that I had people that were over me that gave me credit for having some sense.

[Assistant] Even today, women have problems with that.

[User] Never—in that division, we were always given the greatest respect. They gave us jobs that really gave us some credit. They really did. I felt very, very fortunate that way.

[Assistant] Do you remember what your salary was when you first started?