[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] International relations and diplomacy.

[Assistant] Very good. So how long was it from time of application until you were accepted?

[User] I don't remember exactly. It was, it was fairly quick. I, I seem to remember it was, um, within a matter of months. Yeah.

[Assistant] And how did you feel when, when you got the notification that you were accepted?

[User] Ecstatic. Overjoyed. Uh, terrified. Um, a little, uh, shocked, I guess, as well. Just, it was a mix of emotions. Um, it's almost like, uh, someone coming and telling you suddenly that you're going to be a rock star or something in a lot of ways. It's just, you don't expect it, I guess. For you yourself, you always think, you know, I won't get something like this. And then when it happens, it's just, uh. It's, it's something really special.

[Assistant] Well, you don't want to get your hopes up too high.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember exactly. It was, it was fairly quick. I, I seem to remember it was, um, within a matter of months. Yeah.

[Assistant] And how did you feel when, when you got the notification that you were accepted?

[User] Ecstatic. Overjoyed. Uh, terrified. Um, a little, uh, shocked, I guess, as well. Just, it was a mix of emotions. Um, it's almost like, uh, someone coming and telling you suddenly that you're going to be a rock star or something in a lot of ways. It's just, you don't expect it, I guess. For you yourself, you always think, you know, I won't get something like this. And then when it happens, it's just, uh. It's, it's something really special.

[Assistant] Well, you don't want to get your hopes up too high.

[User] No, exactly. And they tell you don't, you know, they say, don't walk into this process thinking that some, you're going to go down a particular path. You're probably going to end up in a completely different path if you end up along a path at all. And so it's, it's really, um, you have to walk into a situation like that with very reasonable expectations. And I tried to do that. I mean, I will admit that my hopes were up. Um, but I, I don't know, I guess I just really didn't think that it would really come to pass. And, and when it did, I was very happy.

[Assistant] Uh, and what did your friends and family, uh, what was their reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Seems, it's, it's been a while. I feel like it was a matter of weeks or like months or something. It was very, it was very short. It was all, once, once it happened, it was kind of a snowball running at that point. I think it was a matter of months before I was on the plane.

[Assistant] So your recruiter was pretty accurate in telling you here's your choice.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Water sanitation in Mali.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or animal husbandry in Central America.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Water sanitation in Mali.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or animal husbandry in Central America.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Or wherever. So, so you knew, um, right away that when you were invited, you knew generally where you were going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or animal husbandry in Central America.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Or wherever. So, so you knew, um, right away that when you were invited, you knew generally where you were going.

[User]
Well, once I agreed to a program, then he told me where I was going, and, um, he told me the country and, um, he gave me some bits of resources. They did send me some information in the mail, a packet. And so I was able to look through that. But it's not like today where you can Google everything and, you know, and suddenly you're a master at knowing everything. Um, if you're, you know, uh, studious enough, but, um. Yeah. So I didn't know when I agreed to it, but once I did agree to it at that moment, then he said, okay, are you ready to know where you're going to go? And I said, yes. And then he asked me again, are you still willing to go? I said, I've never heard of Mali.

Most people, when I say that I've been to Mali, they say, don't you mean Bali? And they think of the island, this beautiful island, you know, it's tropical and gorgeous and flowers everywhere. No, Mali is not like that. It's a landlocked country, um, home to Timbuktu. And it's the, you know, the desert is creeping closer every day, every day and every year. And so it was a very dry climate there. It wasn't, um, it wasn't that sort of place.

[Assistant] Did you, um, have any second thoughts before leaving, uh, about what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one encounter with JSC on that—of course, JSC has always been interested in the future of human exploration, that’s the main job of the Center—was I got called to have a phone call, and then a visit with one of your most famous people, George [W. S.] Abbey. Have you encountered George or heard about George?

[Assistant] Well actually, interesting side note—George Abbey is the one that started the Oral History Project. It’s how we started in 1996.

[User] Oh, cool.

[Assistant] It was his idea. So yes, we have had encounters with George Abbey, who is another interesting personality.

[User] Yes. No, he is. Never in doubt about what he wants to do, or where he wants to go. Some people would call him “Darth Abbey.”

[Assistant] Yes. Much like Dan Goldin, when he started our project he had a meeting, and at the end of the meeting he told a couple of people to stay for a minute. He told them, “I want to do this. Now, go do it.” You know, “No money really, but go do it.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. No, he is. Never in doubt about what he wants to do, or where he wants to go. Some people would call him “Darth Abbey.”

[Assistant] Yes. Much like Dan Goldin, when he started our project he had a meeting, and at the end of the meeting he told a couple of people to stay for a minute. He told them, “I want to do this. Now, go do it.” You know, “No money really, but go do it.”

[User] Right. “You’ve got the hunting license, okay? What more do you need?”

[Assistant] That’s right.

[User] Why don’t we wrap up there?

[Assistant] I think it’s a good place. You defined it as a challenge and an opportunity to start with a blank sheet of paper, so maybe talk about how you go about building something from a blank sheet of paper the next time we talk. Then we can go on from there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Orbiter is finally brought in somewhere in the four- to six-week timeframe from when SRB stacking has started, after ET mate is done, and then the Orbiter is rolled in on an Orbiter transporter into the VAB and then lifted off this transporter and rotated to vertical, and then, just like the external tank, lowered down to the integration cell, and a series of processes goes on where we go through soft mate and a hard mate to get the various different bolts and fasteners installed to secure the Orbiter to the side of the external tank.

[Assistant] What’s the difference between a soft mate and a hard mate?

[User] Soft mate is where we’ve got the vehicle suspended from the overhead crane. Only a subset of the various fasteners that are required are installed, but it’s secure enough to allow the Orbiter-handling folks to go into the aft compartment of the Orbiter and do the process that involves the turnbuckle, which is essentially the jackscrew that draws the Orbiter into the mating surfaces of the external tank with those people in the aft compartment. Once the Orbiter is fully jacked into position and secured onto the vault fitting to the external tank, then we install the remaining fasteners, and that’s when we declare hard mate. At that point, the vehicle, the Orbiter, is being fully supported off of the external tank. The sling that lifted the Orbiter into the integration cell can then be detached, and the vehicle standing on its own supported by its attachment to the external tank and then ultimately through the solid rocket booster attachments down into the mobile launch platform to the hold-down posts.

[Assistant] How long does that whole process take?

[User] The Orbiter-mate process is on the order of about three days to go from vehicle roll-in to soft mate to hard mate.

[Assistant] Is that an operation that runs twenty-four hours a day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Soft mate is where we’ve got the vehicle suspended from the overhead crane. Only a subset of the various fasteners that are required are installed, but it’s secure enough to allow the Orbiter-handling folks to go into the aft compartment of the Orbiter and do the process that involves the turnbuckle, which is essentially the jackscrew that draws the Orbiter into the mating surfaces of the external tank with those people in the aft compartment. Once the Orbiter is fully jacked into position and secured onto the vault fitting to the external tank, then we install the remaining fasteners, and that’s when we declare hard mate. At that point, the vehicle, the Orbiter, is being fully supported off of the external tank. The sling that lifted the Orbiter into the integration cell can then be detached, and the vehicle standing on its own supported by its attachment to the external tank and then ultimately through the solid rocket booster attachments down into the mobile launch platform to the hold-down posts.

[Assistant] How long does that whole process take?

[User] The Orbiter-mate process is on the order of about three days to go from vehicle roll-in to soft mate to hard mate.

[Assistant] Is that an operation that runs twenty-four hours a day?

[User] Yes it is. The majority of our operations here, especially in critical milestones where we’re doing hardware integration like SRB stacking, ET mate, Orbiter mate, they’re twenty-four hours a day.

[Assistant] How do you keep up with that? Do you work eight hours a day or do you work longer hours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Orbiter-mate process is on the order of about three days to go from vehicle roll-in to soft mate to hard mate.

[Assistant] Is that an operation that runs twenty-four hours a day?

[User] Yes it is. The majority of our operations here, especially in critical milestones where we’re doing hardware integration like SRB stacking, ET mate, Orbiter mate, they’re twenty-four hours a day.

[Assistant] How do you keep up with that? Do you work eight hours a day or do you work longer hours?

[User] Oh, no, much longer hours, unfortunately. That was one of the things about this job that I think probably a lot of folks shied away from, but I actually kind of leapt at the opportunity. It definitely requires some very good flexibility and the ability to put in rather long days. I think my average day is somewhat in the order of about ten to eleven hours a day.

[Assistant] How do you keep up with any sort of engineering or technical problems that might pop up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes it is. The majority of our operations here, especially in critical milestones where we’re doing hardware integration like SRB stacking, ET mate, Orbiter mate, they’re twenty-four hours a day.

[Assistant] How do you keep up with that? Do you work eight hours a day or do you work longer hours?

[User] Oh, no, much longer hours, unfortunately. That was one of the things about this job that I think probably a lot of folks shied away from, but I actually kind of leapt at the opportunity. It definitely requires some very good flexibility and the ability to put in rather long days. I think my average day is somewhat in the order of about ten to eleven hours a day.

[Assistant] How do you keep up with any sort of engineering or technical problems that might pop up?

[User] Well, through my relationships with the various system engineers that work on the subcomponents of the external tank and solid rocket boosters, we have a network of communications and various log systems that they put notes into or emails, telephone calls. It’s a constant process of keeping communications going. Typically, if I haven’t heard from a particular system or group, I’ll go and I’ll go sit down with them face to face and talk with them, “How are things going?” Just to keep up a good rapport with them and remind them that any issues that they’re encountering or anything that they may think is a minor issue, to keep me involved or in the loop on it so that I can make sure that the design centers and the manufacturing locations are aware of any technical issues we may be having here, and any assistance that they could potentially offer us to either avoid a larger issue when a minor issue comes up or to resolve some of the major issues. So that that whole process, I guess that continuous loop, can function so that we can keep things kind of going at an even and sustainable pace.

[Assistant] What do you think has been your biggest challenge since starting the job in terms of technical or engineering complications?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had, just in a very limited capacity, because that was only about—let’s see. Katrina was the end of August 2005. I had only been on this job for about four and a half, five months.

[Assistant] That’s right. I’m thinking Katrina was further back.

[User] Yes, Katrina was 2005.

[Assistant] That’s right. In my head I was thinking it was further back in my timeframe. Well, that’s very interesting. I’m glad you shared that information with us. Anything else that you want to add? Anything about your accomplishments in this position or any other milestones?

[User] No. I can tell you that I feel like I’ve been very fortunate to have had the opportunities and been involved in the various different major issues that have come up with the external tank and the handful that have happened with solid rocket booster. I feel extremely proud to be part of these teams and to have been here and to be here at such an historic time to see us go from that rising up out of the ashes after Columbia now to flying the Shuttle into the history books here this week. Even knowing everything that I know now and all the turmoil and unfortunate situations, I see a lot of people, my contractors especially, and I wouldn’t have changed anything. I still would have taken this job, and I’m very grateful for the opportunities I’ve been given. This has been one heck of a ride.

[Assistant] I do wish you well this week, and I hope that we get off successfully on Friday.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Katrina was 2005.

[Assistant] That’s right. In my head I was thinking it was further back in my timeframe. Well, that’s very interesting. I’m glad you shared that information with us. Anything else that you want to add? Anything about your accomplishments in this position or any other milestones?

[User] No. I can tell you that I feel like I’ve been very fortunate to have had the opportunities and been involved in the various different major issues that have come up with the external tank and the handful that have happened with solid rocket booster. I feel extremely proud to be part of these teams and to have been here and to be here at such an historic time to see us go from that rising up out of the ashes after Columbia now to flying the Shuttle into the history books here this week. Even knowing everything that I know now and all the turmoil and unfortunate situations, I see a lot of people, my contractors especially, and I wouldn’t have changed anything. I still would have taken this job, and I’m very grateful for the opportunities I’ve been given. This has been one heck of a ride.

[Assistant] I do wish you well this week, and I hope that we get off successfully on Friday.

[User] Yes, me too.

[Assistant] So thank you very much for your time today. I certainly appreciate it, and I hope you have a good time at the Keys.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I can tell you that I feel like I’ve been very fortunate to have had the opportunities and been involved in the various different major issues that have come up with the external tank and the handful that have happened with solid rocket booster. I feel extremely proud to be part of these teams and to have been here and to be here at such an historic time to see us go from that rising up out of the ashes after Columbia now to flying the Shuttle into the history books here this week. Even knowing everything that I know now and all the turmoil and unfortunate situations, I see a lot of people, my contractors especially, and I wouldn’t have changed anything. I still would have taken this job, and I’m very grateful for the opportunities I’ve been given. This has been one heck of a ride.

[Assistant] I do wish you well this week, and I hope that we get off successfully on Friday.

[User] Yes, me too.

[Assistant] So thank you very much for your time today. I certainly appreciate it, and I hope you have a good time at the Keys.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And have a relaxing vacation after what I’m sure has been a very hectic past five, six years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's one other one I forgot to mention. It was a film event that happened virtually. A movie came out about the failed Iran hostage rescue mission, and Walter Mondale, Vice President Mondale, was on the call and that was really exciting. I had never got to meet him, but I got to sit in on a call just like a Zoom meeting with somebody.

[Assistant] When was that?

[User] That was last year, probably in the fall. So, fall of 2020. That movie was really good. That's another nice thing. Because we worked on these films, they let us get a pre-screen. So that's why we got to see Rock & Roll President for example, because they use so much of our stuff to make those.

[Assistant] This is a question that I just came up with just on that same topic, contributing to movies. Did the Carter Library have any role in the creation of the film Argo several years ago?

[User] Yes. We have a lot of digitized stuff on that. I wasn't there then. It was very exciting. The actual CIA agent who came out with the book—

[Assistant] Tony Mendez, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was last year, probably in the fall. So, fall of 2020. That movie was really good. That's another nice thing. Because we worked on these films, they let us get a pre-screen. So that's why we got to see Rock & Roll President for example, because they use so much of our stuff to make those.

[Assistant] This is a question that I just came up with just on that same topic, contributing to movies. Did the Carter Library have any role in the creation of the film Argo several years ago?

[User] Yes. We have a lot of digitized stuff on that. I wasn't there then. It was very exciting. The actual CIA agent who came out with the book—

[Assistant] Tony Mendez, yeah.

[User] —I read that book. It's a really good book. He came down to do research, and he actually spoke at the library. We used to have a thing called “The Carter Chronicles,” a blog about the library. I think that's one of the articles that's still out there in the ether somewhere. It is about Argo and how it relates to what really happened. I guess there were some liberties taken. Actually, I think what I heard is that President Carter thought the man who wrote it kind of gave himself more credit. That was sort of his take on it, that there were other people that were also involved. It wasn't all just him. Which I think in the book that's spelled out more than it might have been in the movie.

[Assistant] I had heard that, too. I guess that's with a lot of movies that are made that there are certain things that are going to be a little bit more dramatized when in reality, yeah, that was pretty anticlimactic. There wasn't that much to it. Lastly, unfortunately, you're going to be leaving the National Archives before too long. You're going to be taking a position as regional records officer with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Unfortunately, we're going to be sorry to lose you but definitely wish you the best of luck. You're going to be in a related field for sure. Anything else that you would like to tell us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] Excellent. Well, thank you very much. It's been about an hour and thank you very much for your time and definitely wish you the best of luck in your new role. Enjoy Colorado. I imagine it is going to have a much different feel from Georgia, but it's also a really, really pretty place to live.

[User] Yes, I'm looking forward to it. I will miss NARA. I mean, it's been more than 10 years. I just think this is a really good opportunity.

[Assistant] Excellent. Congratulations.

[User] Thanks for doing Zoom.

[Assistant] Best of luck to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Big, big smiles, yes. It's really neat. That's one of the best times, is opening the hatches, and everybody is just overcome with emotion and joy, the whole thing happening, you know.

[Assistant] I guess there's no split between international parties there, everybody is so happy to see everybody else.

[User] > Yes. You know, it's funny, this hasn't happened since, but on the first docking, I went into the docking module and I looked through the little porthole because we were waiting for the pressure checks, and I've done this every time, and the Russians and Americans on board tend to come into here and wait. Their hatch is already open, and we're doing pressure checks with our hatch, and our hatch gets opened last to physically give us access, so you can look through this little porthole, and you can wave at the guys on the other side, and you'd see they're really antsy for us to open our hatch, "Come on! What are you waiting for?"\n\n But on the first one, I looked in there, and I thought, "Wow. They've got their camera oriented this way." They were upside down compared to the way we were oriented in the Shuttle. So we opened the hatch, and Hoot was going to shake hands with Dezhurov, but he was upside down, and so we yelled across at Norm and said, "Norm, you guys are upside down."\n\n He says, "No. You guys are upside down." [Laughter]

[Assistant] And everybody was right, I guess.

[User] > Yes.

[Assistant] Your work with the Russians with this program, was that your first exchange with them or had you worked with -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Yes.

[Assistant] Your work with the Russians with this program, was that your first exchange with them or had you worked with -

[User] > With the Russians?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] > Yes. I'd never even met a Russian except for one time in my life in Berlin. That would have been about seventeen years ago, sixteen years ago. I went to Berlin when the [Berlin] Wall was still up, and if you'll remember, there was a quadrapartite agreement. The Russians, the Americans, the British, and the French all manned Berlin in sectors, and the Russians had a representative in the control tower at Templehof, which is the airport there. The four countries managed the air space for the Germans to fly in and out of Templehof. So they had a Russian in the control tower there, and he was a former MiG pilot. We were all F-15 pilots visiting, and we thought that was pretty weird. [Laughter] But other than that, until this program started, I hadn't had a chance to work with them at all.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first exchange, the first time you met them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Yes. I'm trying to remember. Well, it was when Sergei and Vladimir Titov came here, and neither one of them spoke very much English at the time, and I didn't speak any Russian then. Met them in the hallways and welcome, and kind of awkward exchange, and at the gymnasium the same kind of thing, and then gradually got to talk to them more and more, and they got better in English.\n\n But I think the more pronounced first meeting was when I got assigned to STS-71 and we knew who we were going to be flying with, Nikolai Budarin and Anatoly Solovyev. When they first came over here, I had already started to learn some Russian, and we were going to take them to the Astros game and down to Galveston, and I took Nikolai in my little pickup. So we had a forty-five-minute drive to Galveston, and he didn't speak much English and I didn't speak much Russian, but we were able to, with a dictionary, talk about a few things on the way down there. You think about how the relationships started there and where they've evolved to today, it's pretty incredible, because we couldn't even talk to each other back then and now we do everything together. It's neat. But, yes, when you think back on how it really first started, you would tend to believe those that said, "You'll never be able to make this work." So the fact that we did is pretty neat.

[Assistant] And where do you want to go from here?

[User] > Me personally?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] > I have so much on my plate, it's kind of out of control. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Bragging or complaining? [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Me personally?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] > I have so much on my plate, it's kind of out of control. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Bragging or complaining? [Laughter]

[User] > I don't know. I'm staying right here at NASA for at least the next several years. I'm hoping to fly a long-duration mission on the new station. We'd like to have some commanders of the Shuttle and that experience those people-- fly as commanders of the Space Station, too, for those increments when the Americans will be commanding it. So I'm looking to that opportunity a couple or three years from now. In the meantime, I'm sure they'll give me plenty to do.

[Assistant] You started with the program eight years ago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > You were there? That was a really hot night.

[Assistant] But still, the chance of a lifetime. I didn't notice the heat.

[User] > Is that right?

[Assistant] I noticed it, but -

[User] > They tell me it was a pretty spectacular launch from a visual effects standpoint because it was clear enough that you could see it for a long time, plus the winds were blowing in the right direction to bring the sound back towards the viewing area.

[Assistant] It's too bad you can't be in two places at once.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Is that right?

[Assistant] I noticed it, but -

[User] > They tell me it was a pretty spectacular launch from a visual effects standpoint because it was clear enough that you could see it for a long time, plus the winds were blowing in the right direction to bring the sound back towards the viewing area.

[Assistant] It's too bad you can't be in two places at once.

[User] > That's right.

[Assistant] The last eight years, would you have done anything else, now that you've gone through all this? Can you imagine doing anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > They tell me it was a pretty spectacular launch from a visual effects standpoint because it was clear enough that you could see it for a long time, plus the winds were blowing in the right direction to bring the sound back towards the viewing area.

[Assistant] It's too bad you can't be in two places at once.

[User] > That's right.

[Assistant] The last eight years, would you have done anything else, now that you've gone through all this? Can you imagine doing anything else?

[User] > No. I could imagine having done a lot of things better. [Laughter] That's always hindsight. But, no. Shoot, I've had a lot of people ask me if I'm ready to quit flying and go work for a living, and I say, "Shoot. What would I want to do that for?" [Laughter]

[Assistant] When you entered, did you have any idea that you would go through all of this change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > That's right.

[Assistant] The last eight years, would you have done anything else, now that you've gone through all this? Can you imagine doing anything else?

[User] > No. I could imagine having done a lot of things better. [Laughter] That's always hindsight. But, no. Shoot, I've had a lot of people ask me if I'm ready to quit flying and go work for a living, and I say, "Shoot. What would I want to do that for?" [Laughter]

[Assistant] When you entered, did you have any idea that you would go through all of this change?

[User] > I had no clue. I mean, the Berlin Wall was still up. We were getting ready to fight the [Persian] Gulf War, and I almost ended up in Saudi Arabia for my Air Force assignment that was diverted here when NASA selected me. So where we are today I would have never, ever guessed or speculated this could have happened. It's a pretty amazing change of events.

[Assistant] Tell us about the ceremony when they opened the hatch, because we've heard that y'all don't shake hands, because it's bad luck, across the hatch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > Yes.

[Assistant] Of course, right?

[User] > With jalapeños and the whole nine yards, yes.

[Assistant] And tortillas.

[User] > Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant]
Thank you for sharing with us about the feast. That's something that we can all visualize to a point. Of course, we weren't there.

But then when you think about it, that's pretty incredible, all these different nationalities up there in space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] > With jalapeños and the whole nine yards, yes.

[Assistant] And tortillas.

[User] > Yes. Exactly.

[Assistant]
Thank you for sharing with us about the feast. That's something that we can all visualize to a point. Of course, we weren't there.

But then when you think about it, that's pretty incredible, all these different nationalities up there in space.

[User] > Oh, yes.

[Assistant] A sign of new things to come.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [We] never would have made it; never would have made the ’69 date without that all-up testing. You’d like to see that today. It’s a different environment—I don’t want to just say it’s because people won’t or can’t make decisions. The decision process now is so convoluted. The interference from external—from OMB [Office of Management and Budget], from GAO [Government Accountability Office], congressional committees micromanaging NASA—it would drive me berserk. I don’t think I could survive in the environment today. Just too much of a bureaucracy. This is not what NASA needs.

[Assistant] We talked about Apollo 11, and you mentioned before about you knew exactly where you were when Kennedy was assassinated. Where were you when Apollo 11 landed?

[User] At JSC. I was down there with George Mueller and some of his colleagues. We were just outside the [Mission] Control Center, we weren’t inside. We were down there waiting and watching the TV, being somewhat astounded, as I recall, that the crew decided that there was no way they were going to take a snooze on the lunar surface at that point, so let’s get out and do something.

[Assistant] There’s a decision.

[User] Yes. Well, they made it. That was another one of those, remember where you were. And all the news coverage. I had been on for an interview with Walter Cronkite [broadcast journalist] explaining what some of the crew were doing when they got out there on the lunar surface.

[Assistant] I know that each one of the missions had its own goals and objectives. Do some stand out more than others for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At JSC. I was down there with George Mueller and some of his colleagues. We were just outside the [Mission] Control Center, we weren’t inside. We were down there waiting and watching the TV, being somewhat astounded, as I recall, that the crew decided that there was no way they were going to take a snooze on the lunar surface at that point, so let’s get out and do something.

[Assistant] There’s a decision.

[User] Yes. Well, they made it. That was another one of those, remember where you were. And all the news coverage. I had been on for an interview with Walter Cronkite [broadcast journalist] explaining what some of the crew were doing when they got out there on the lunar surface.

[Assistant] I know that each one of the missions had its own goals and objectives. Do some stand out more than others for you?

[User] Oh, they were all superb missions. Look at what we learned. We learned so much from each of them, including getting surprises. Apollo 16, that was a Fra Mauro [formation] mission. What it turned out to be was not what all the photogeologic interpretations said it would be. So it really did bring home the limits of your ability to interpret orbital photography in terms of what’s actually on the ground. Even today as you look at both lunar and planetary photography, Mars photography, and you listen to interpretations, you somewhat shake your head and say, “Yeah, you may be right,” but you may not be if you really go down there and look on the surface. Orbital photography has come a long way but it still has its limits in your ability to interpret in very concrete terms what’s actually there on the ground.

[Assistant] How did you see that part of that package? You had been working with engineers. You worked with scientists. Then of course orbital photography grew into its own being. There was an evolution there, what originally started and then how it evolved through the lunar missions. How much were you involved with that? Were you helping with that or was it just something that you were overseeing and watching yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the centrifuge is always fun, but hard work. We did all kinds of treadmill walking and running to exhaustion. We rode bicycles to exhaustion, but we disproved a lot of theory about human limits and endurance. The anechoic chamber was fun. That’s the place where you are isolated, can't hear a thing, can't see a thing. You go in not knowing how long you'll be in there. Some people told you to expect being in this environment for two or three days. It turned out to be an hour or something. So that was fun.\n\n What else? There are so many fun experiences, we'd never get on to space flight if we went into all of those. But they were all fascinating experiments trying to find out if the human organism had some weak spot that would make him, make the organism, unable to withstand space flight. And they tried hard to find one, but there weren't any.

[Assistant] To your knowledge, were there other scientists or even physicians who were looking into that data on those tests, to see the limits?

[User] Oh, you mean now?

[Assistant] Yes. Are you aware of them?

[User] Oh, sure. Limits, human limits, are still being explored, and we're doing that today in terms of long-duration space flight, because that's one thing we still haven't proved: can we stand weightlessness for the duration of a Mars flight. And I often thought in the early days that, … these people … [were] being very undemocratic about the tests and the suspicions they had of us because we're being considered guilty of … being [un]able to withstand space flight, instead of being considered innocent … [at the outset]. We showed them we … [could] do it, you know.

[Assistant] From what I understand, you broke a few … [records] yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you mean now?

[Assistant] Yes. Are you aware of them?

[User] Oh, sure. Limits, human limits, are still being explored, and we're doing that today in terms of long-duration space flight, because that's one thing we still haven't proved: can we stand weightlessness for the duration of a Mars flight. And I often thought in the early days that, … these people … [were] being very undemocratic about the tests and the suspicions they had of us because we're being considered guilty of … being [un]able to withstand space flight, instead of being considered innocent … [at the outset]. We showed them we … [could] do it, you know.

[Assistant] From what I understand, you broke a few … [records] yourself.

[User] Oh, yes, but that's not important. And those tests, they revealed a lot of physical capabilities not really important to space flight, but they do … properly demonstrate perseverance. And, you know, you can do anything if you persevere. And where I did well, it was only because of perseverance, and there's a lot of things in space flight that require … [perseverance].

[Assistant] You're very modest.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. Limits, human limits, are still being explored, and we're doing that today in terms of long-duration space flight, because that's one thing we still haven't proved: can we stand weightlessness for the duration of a Mars flight. And I often thought in the early days that, … these people … [were] being very undemocratic about the tests and the suspicions they had of us because we're being considered guilty of … being [un]able to withstand space flight, instead of being considered innocent … [at the outset]. We showed them we … [could] do it, you know.

[Assistant] From what I understand, you broke a few … [records] yourself.

[User] Oh, yes, but that's not important. And those tests, they revealed a lot of physical capabilities not really important to space flight, but they do … properly demonstrate perseverance. And, you know, you can do anything if you persevere. And where I did well, it was only because of perseverance, and there's a lot of things in space flight that require … [perseverance].

[Assistant] You're very modest.

[User] Well, that's as it should be. We were very, very lucky people.

[Assistant] I know that you, I think, were in the class with "Deke" [Donald K.] Slayton when you were actually going through the tests at the Lovelace Clinic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, but that's not important. And those tests, they revealed a lot of physical capabilities not really important to space flight, but they do … properly demonstrate perseverance. And, you know, you can do anything if you persevere. And where I did well, it was only because of perseverance, and there's a lot of things in space flight that require … [perseverance].

[Assistant] You're very modest.

[User] Well, that's as it should be. We were very, very lucky people.

[Assistant] I know that you, I think, were in the class with "Deke" [Donald K.] Slayton when you were actually going through the tests at the Lovelace Clinic.

[User] … [we were together at Wright-Pat [Wright-Patterson Air Force Base] but I think not at Lovelace.]

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about him and what your personal impressions of him were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's as it should be. We were very, very lucky people.

[Assistant] I know that you, I think, were in the class with "Deke" [Donald K.] Slayton when you were actually going through the tests at the Lovelace Clinic.

[User] … [we were together at Wright-Pat [Wright-Patterson Air Force Base] but I think not at Lovelace.]

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about him and what your personal impressions of him were?

[User] … We [all] went through the same tests … [he did it] like everybody else did. The one thing that was a standout about Deke was that he was a non-swimmer, and he didn't tell anybody that he went through our training with the Navy SEALS, scuba diving and all that, and he never told anybody [about] that. He couldn't even swim. His wife used to talk about his practicing at home in the kitchen sink, inhaling through his mouth and exhaling through his nose. But that was a measure of his perseverance.

[Assistant] What do you think some of the selection criteria were? Talk about what the selection was at the time and how they decided they wanted particular people to go into the Mercury Program. Do you feel that anything stood out in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … [we were together at Wright-Pat [Wright-Patterson Air Force Base] but I think not at Lovelace.]

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about him and what your personal impressions of him were?

[User] … We [all] went through the same tests … [he did it] like everybody else did. The one thing that was a standout about Deke was that he was a non-swimmer, and he didn't tell anybody that he went through our training with the Navy SEALS, scuba diving and all that, and he never told anybody [about] that. He couldn't even swim. His wife used to talk about his practicing at home in the kitchen sink, inhaling through his mouth and exhaling through his nose. But that was a measure of his perseverance.

[Assistant] What do you think some of the selection criteria were? Talk about what the selection was at the time and how they decided they wanted particular people to go into the Mercury Program. Do you feel that anything stood out in your mind?

[User] Anything stood out in the test program, you're saying?

[Assistant] Yes, within the tests, when they decided to actually go ahead through the selection process and advance from those tests into the next round.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … We [all] went through the same tests … [he did it] like everybody else did. The one thing that was a standout about Deke was that he was a non-swimmer, and he didn't tell anybody that he went through our training with the Navy SEALS, scuba diving and all that, and he never told anybody [about] that. He couldn't even swim. His wife used to talk about his practicing at home in the kitchen sink, inhaling through his mouth and exhaling through his nose. But that was a measure of his perseverance.

[Assistant] What do you think some of the selection criteria were? Talk about what the selection was at the time and how they decided they wanted particular people to go into the Mercury Program. Do you feel that anything stood out in your mind?

[User] Anything stood out in the test program, you're saying?

[Assistant] Yes, within the tests, when they decided to actually go ahead through the selection process and advance from those tests into the next round.

[User] Well, we measured the guys very well and in lots of different areas, and all had some small -all made some contribution and some indication of suitability for space flight. None of those tests revealed anybody who was not suited for space flight, but the real critical test was to be found on the centrifuge. That has direct relationship to space flight. But everybody did that okay, too. However, you have to realize that men have certain limits, and we designed the machine and the flight profile to stay within those limits. We pushed the limits, because that was necessary for a number of reasons, but the human was the [major] determinant.

[Assistant] I'd like to go on and ask you a little bit about once you were selected, what was the training like then? Was it very different than what you'd gone through as far as the initial test and selection rounds?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anything stood out in the test program, you're saying?

[Assistant] Yes, within the tests, when they decided to actually go ahead through the selection process and advance from those tests into the next round.

[User] Well, we measured the guys very well and in lots of different areas, and all had some small -all made some contribution and some indication of suitability for space flight. None of those tests revealed anybody who was not suited for space flight, but the real critical test was to be found on the centrifuge. That has direct relationship to space flight. But everybody did that okay, too. However, you have to realize that men have certain limits, and we designed the machine and the flight profile to stay within those limits. We pushed the limits, because that was necessary for a number of reasons, but the human was the [major] determinant.

[Assistant] I'd like to go on and ask you a little bit about once you were selected, what was the training like then? Was it very different than what you'd gone through as far as the initial test and selection rounds?

[User] No. We continued to do a lot of work on the centrifuge, because now… the flight profile was better known and being tailored to both the ballistic flight and the orbital flight. The major difference was in developing procedures and building machinery and techniques to do what we decided some time before to try to do, but now we're building the machinery to do it. And that's fascinating, too.

[Assistant] And were you involved in building the machinery itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we measured the guys very well and in lots of different areas, and all had some small -all made some contribution and some indication of suitability for space flight. None of those tests revealed anybody who was not suited for space flight, but the real critical test was to be found on the centrifuge. That has direct relationship to space flight. But everybody did that okay, too. However, you have to realize that men have certain limits, and we designed the machine and the flight profile to stay within those limits. We pushed the limits, because that was necessary for a number of reasons, but the human was the [major] determinant.

[Assistant] I'd like to go on and ask you a little bit about once you were selected, what was the training like then? Was it very different than what you'd gone through as far as the initial test and selection rounds?

[User] No. We continued to do a lot of work on the centrifuge, because now… the flight profile was better known and being tailored to both the ballistic flight and the orbital flight. The major difference was in developing procedures and building machinery and techniques to do what we decided some time before to try to do, but now we're building the machinery to do it. And that's fascinating, too.

[Assistant] And were you involved in building the machinery itself?

[User] Sure. We were involved with every phase of the construction of our spacecraft. I happened to have personal responsibility for navigation and communications. I had done that in the Navy at the [Patuxent River, Maryland, Naval Air] Test Center. I also had experience in a Navy airplane, this photographic airplane, photo recon, that had a big viewport like this, similar to what we would have in the spacecraft. So each of us brought past experience to the endeavor, along with our burning desire to see if we could do it.

[Assistant] What did you do as far as tracking the communication and navigation equipment advances?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We continued to do a lot of work on the centrifuge, because now… the flight profile was better known and being tailored to both the ballistic flight and the orbital flight. The major difference was in developing procedures and building machinery and techniques to do what we decided some time before to try to do, but now we're building the machinery to do it. And that's fascinating, too.

[Assistant] And were you involved in building the machinery itself?

[User] Sure. We were involved with every phase of the construction of our spacecraft. I happened to have personal responsibility for navigation and communications. I had done that in the Navy at the [Patuxent River, Maryland, Naval Air] Test Center. I also had experience in a Navy airplane, this photographic airplane, photo recon, that had a big viewport like this, similar to what we would have in the spacecraft. So each of us brought past experience to the endeavor, along with our burning desire to see if we could do it.

[Assistant] What did you do as far as tracking the communication and navigation equipment advances?

[User] Well, I followed the development of the communications system, but navigation is a misnomer. You couldn't navigate that machine. It was a bullet, and you could decide when to come down, but after you'd made that decision, you couldn't aim it. It was already aimed. So, navigation had some input to the charts we used, but not in getting from one place to another, except from launch to entry.

[Assistant] How about the communications system? How were you involved there? Were you working with the McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] plans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. We were involved with every phase of the construction of our spacecraft. I happened to have personal responsibility for navigation and communications. I had done that in the Navy at the [Patuxent River, Maryland, Naval Air] Test Center. I also had experience in a Navy airplane, this photographic airplane, photo recon, that had a big viewport like this, similar to what we would have in the spacecraft. So each of us brought past experience to the endeavor, along with our burning desire to see if we could do it.

[Assistant] What did you do as far as tracking the communication and navigation equipment advances?

[User] Well, I followed the development of the communications system, but navigation is a misnomer. You couldn't navigate that machine. It was a bullet, and you could decide when to come down, but after you'd made that decision, you couldn't aim it. It was already aimed. So, navigation had some input to the charts we used, but not in getting from one place to another, except from launch to entry.

[Assistant] How about the communications system? How were you involved there? Were you working with the McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] plans?

[User] Yes. We worked with Collins [Radio Company]. They made our radios. We didn't have expertise in design of communications equipment, but we were apprised of all the developments, and we had editorial rights. If we didn't like what they had decided to do, we'd change it, and they never decided to do anything, really, without checking with the forces that controlled all of this at NASA.

[Assistant] That's probably very good and… [interrupted]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I followed the development of the communications system, but navigation is a misnomer. You couldn't navigate that machine. It was a bullet, and you could decide when to come down, but after you'd made that decision, you couldn't aim it. It was already aimed. So, navigation had some input to the charts we used, but not in getting from one place to another, except from launch to entry.

[Assistant] How about the communications system? How were you involved there? Were you working with the McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] plans?

[User] Yes. We worked with Collins [Radio Company]. They made our radios. We didn't have expertise in design of communications equipment, but we were apprised of all the developments, and we had editorial rights. If we didn't like what they had decided to do, we'd change it, and they never decided to do anything, really, without checking with the forces that controlled all of this at NASA.

[Assistant] That's probably very good and… [interrupted]

[User] It was very well handled.

[Assistant] Did anything stand out in your mind as far as your training went that was actually original or most memorable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We worked with Collins [Radio Company]. They made our radios. We didn't have expertise in design of communications equipment, but we were apprised of all the developments, and we had editorial rights. If we didn't like what they had decided to do, we'd change it, and they never decided to do anything, really, without checking with the forces that controlled all of this at NASA.

[Assistant] That's probably very good and… [interrupted]

[User] It was very well handled.

[Assistant] Did anything stand out in your mind as far as your training went that was actually original or most memorable?

[User] We had a lot of fascinating simulators. You know, the simulation field started in aviation a long time ago with the Link trainer, but we really put some fine touches on the Link trainer, and we had some fascinating machines that allowed us to experience everything we would experience in flight, everything with the exception – if you couple it with work on the centrifuge, everything except [prolonged weightlessness and] the impact with the water. And that was benign, too. I'm just reminded of a device used in selection. That is a funny machine, and I wish it could be recreated. It was called "the panic box." You've heard about the panic box?

[Assistant] No, I haven’t. Please tell me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Something like that.

[User] I think those were F-102s. Wally and I were chase pilots and in 102s, and that was because launch operations was run by [Walter C.]Walt Williams, who had had his upbringing at Edwards [Air Force Base, CA], where every new airplane, first flight, had a couple of chase planes to make sure there's somebody there watching what's going on. And so it sounded reasonable that we should have somebody chasing Al Shepard.\n\n So Wally and I were there … [flying circles around the pad], and I think we had radio contact with the count. When Wally comes down, you can check with him about this, but I don't remember hearing the countdown, and I don't remember seeing Al one second, because we're going this way and he's going this way. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Straight up.

[User] I didn't see a thing, … [and] I don't think Wally did either. So we didn't chase any flights after that. And it's a good custom, but it had, in the Space Age, outworn its usefulness.

[Assistant] And it was just such and unknown at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think those were F-102s. Wally and I were chase pilots and in 102s, and that was because launch operations was run by [Walter C.]Walt Williams, who had had his upbringing at Edwards [Air Force Base, CA], where every new airplane, first flight, had a couple of chase planes to make sure there's somebody there watching what's going on. And so it sounded reasonable that we should have somebody chasing Al Shepard.\n\n So Wally and I were there … [flying circles around the pad], and I think we had radio contact with the count. When Wally comes down, you can check with him about this, but I don't remember hearing the countdown, and I don't remember seeing Al one second, because we're going this way and he's going this way. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Straight up.

[User] I didn't see a thing, … [and] I don't think Wally did either. So we didn't chase any flights after that. And it's a good custom, but it had, in the Space Age, outworn its usefulness.

[Assistant] And it was just such and unknown at that time.

[User] Along with many others.

[Assistant] Then when you were acting as Mr. Glenn's, Senator Glenn's, backup, can I ask you something about some of the things that you did, and did you train together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't see a thing, … [and] I don't think Wally did either. So we didn't chase any flights after that. And it's a good custom, but it had, in the Space Age, outworn its usefulness.

[Assistant] And it was just such and unknown at that time.

[User] Along with many others.

[Assistant] Then when you were acting as Mr. Glenn's, Senator Glenn's, backup, can I ask you something about some of the things that you did, and did you train together?

[User] We did everything together, yes, and that went on for quite a while. We learned so much then, too. We learned so much about what we should do and so much about what we both should not do and should not have done. But that's the name of this game. Sure, we were shadows, each of the other, for a long time.

[Assistant] Do you still maintain a good relationship with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Along with many others.

[Assistant] Then when you were acting as Mr. Glenn's, Senator Glenn's, backup, can I ask you something about some of the things that you did, and did you train together?

[User] We did everything together, yes, and that went on for quite a while. We learned so much then, too. We learned so much about what we should do and so much about what we both should not do and should not have done. But that's the name of this game. Sure, we were shadows, each of the other, for a long time.

[Assistant] Do you still maintain a good relationship with him?

[User] Oh, yes. Sure.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about your flight, and I don't want to go delve into it too much, because there's so much about it that's written, and I don't what to bore you or have redundant information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did everything together, yes, and that went on for quite a while. We learned so much then, too. We learned so much about what we should do and so much about what we both should not do and should not have done. But that's the name of this game. Sure, we were shadows, each of the other, for a long time.

[Assistant] Do you still maintain a good relationship with him?

[User] Oh, yes. Sure.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about your flight, and I don't want to go delve into it too much, because there's so much about it that's written, and I don't what to bore you or have redundant information.

[User] It's no matter.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you, what did you do to prepare for it? Was it much of the same training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Sure.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about your flight, and I don't want to go delve into it too much, because there's so much about it that's written, and I don't what to bore you or have redundant information.

[User] It's no matter.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you, what did you do to prepare for it? Was it much of the same training?

[User] The same thing everybody else did. We designed our own flight plan, and then we put it into an operational schedule and got in the simulator and practiced, just like everybody else had done. I had spent a lot of time in the simulator doing John's plan, but then, after he flew, I got back in the simulator and did my plan. That's fun, too.

[Assistant] Did you learn a lot from his mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's no matter.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you, what did you do to prepare for it? Was it much of the same training?

[User] The same thing everybody else did. We designed our own flight plan, and then we put it into an operational schedule and got in the simulator and practiced, just like everybody else had done. I had spent a lot of time in the simulator doing John's plan, but then, after he flew, I got back in the simulator and did my plan. That's fun, too.

[Assistant] Did you learn a lot from his mission?

[User] Well, yes. Of course. We learned a lot from each mission, but it gave us confidence in the machine and it also opened up the flight plan for some scientific pursuits that were not just experimental flight-test objectives, and that was fun, too. I was glad about that.

[Assistant] You were actually probably one of the first in space, actually, to conduct scientific experiments during your mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same thing everybody else did. We designed our own flight plan, and then we put it into an operational schedule and got in the simulator and practiced, just like everybody else had done. I had spent a lot of time in the simulator doing John's plan, but then, after he flew, I got back in the simulator and did my plan. That's fun, too.

[Assistant] Did you learn a lot from his mission?

[User] Well, yes. Of course. We learned a lot from each mission, but it gave us confidence in the machine and it also opened up the flight plan for some scientific pursuits that were not just experimental flight-test objectives, and that was fun, too. I was glad about that.

[Assistant] You were actually probably one of the first in space, actually, to conduct scientific experiments during your mission.

[User] Well, I guess that's so, but the whole thing is, John's flight was certainly concerned with science, but it was more inside the machine than it was outside in the environment, and I was, quite frankly, more interested in where I was than I was in what got me where I was.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about that, your experience on your flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. Of course. We learned a lot from each mission, but it gave us confidence in the machine and it also opened up the flight plan for some scientific pursuits that were not just experimental flight-test objectives, and that was fun, too. I was glad about that.

[Assistant] You were actually probably one of the first in space, actually, to conduct scientific experiments during your mission.

[User] Well, I guess that's so, but the whole thing is, John's flight was certainly concerned with science, but it was more inside the machine than it was outside in the environment, and I was, quite frankly, more interested in where I was than I was in what got me where I was.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about that, your experience on your flight?

[User] Well, we didn't know about how a lot of things would behave in zero-G, outside. We didn't know anything about the slipstream. We didn't know anything about how well we could see certain celestial phenomena, sunsets and sunrises and occlusion of the stars at the horizon. There was just an awful lot of questions that we were asking.\n\n And I have a good curiosity, and I'm always eager to answer and ask questions. That's what this flight did. It asked a lot of questions and brought home some new truths, one of which cleared up the mystery of John Glenn's fireflies. We really didn't – just as in those days we didn't really know for sure that the moon was not made out of green cheese, expected it wasn't, but didn't know. John saw these fireflies just prior to entry and called them fireflies, and we really didn't know for sure that there weren't some sort of living, glowing critters out there. A big question mark. It turns out they were ice that had condensed and adhered to the spacecraft when you hit the side, and they'd float off. A big mystery. It seems like nothing now, but it satisfied a lot of curious folks in its time.

[Assistant] So what do you think was the most important thing that you learned either personally or professionally on that flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, okay. There were three contributors to an overshoot. One of them was – the major one was that the spacecraft was out of alignment. It is not known how much out of alignment. It was good in pitch and roll, but yaw, I had faulty yaw indicator readings, and there's no way you can read yaw by looking at the horizon. But it had given me some trouble for half an hour or more before retrofire. So there was that misalignment which made me go too far. They were late by a second and a half or two because the gyros being not indicating properly; I had caged them and I had to set them off manually. That contributed to an overshoot, and they were under thrust, as well. All of these things made me go too far, and I managed my fuel supply badly on the second orbit over Australia. There was excessive fuel use, which scared a lot of the folks on the ground. There was enough. There was enough for the entry. A lot of people thought there would not be. And it was anybody's guess.\n\n It was interesting to me to note that on the last part of the entry, when I was out of fuel, that very fact proved that that particular aerodynamic shape had the stability that was designed into it, so that there was reason to believe that you could make a good entry without any fuel. It's not necessary to try, but it proved the value of the design.

[Assistant] [to third party] Thank you, I appreciate that. And I also understand you had some trouble with your suit, your pressure suit, as well.

[User] Yes, it overheated. That was over Australia. That was bothersome.

[Assistant] And did they learn anything from that?

[User] I didn't. I don't know whether that failure was ever pinpointed.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about your recovery. I read your flight plan from after the flight as well, and you discussed how you inflated your raft and you basically egressed from the spacecraft, and you were just on your own, biding your own time, and you mentioned you were just taking in your surroundings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it overheated. That was over Australia. That was bothersome.

[Assistant] And did they learn anything from that?

[User] I didn't. I don't know whether that failure was ever pinpointed.

[Assistant] I'd like to ask you a little bit about your recovery. I read your flight plan from after the flight as well, and you discussed how you inflated your raft and you basically egressed from the spacecraft, and you were just on your own, biding your own time, and you mentioned you were just taking in your surroundings.

[User] Yes. I had sort of a blessing there for the hour after the flight. Everybody else had been confronted immediately with a debriefing team, and that's an occupational hazard. Nobody knew where I was, and I didn't know that. I knew where I was. [Chuckles] But I didn't know that they didn't know back on shore.\n\n So I climbed out, I got in the life raft, and I had a quiet time to contemplate what had happened, and I treasure the recollection of that. Pretty soon – and I wasn't worried, either, because there's a SARAH [Search and Rescue and Homing] beacon that's sending out signals to a lot of people listening, and I just didn't even think about it. But pretty soon a plane turned up. It was a plane I used to fly, and I waved to it. Then another plane turned up, and there were, before I was picked up, I think, seven airplanes flying around me, and I got tired of waving at them. I didn't pay any attention to them.\n\n I was sitting there in the raft, and I heard this calm voice say, "Hi, there." And three Navy SEALS had jumped out of one of the airplanes and swam up … [to] me. They had a big raft [to] put around the spacecraft. So we talked a little bit, and I offered them some of my survival food. They said they weren't hungry.

[Assistant] What kind of survival food was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know. It was in a package that came out with the life raft, a candy bar and some other high-energy food. Then years and years and years later, I went to a meeting in [the] San Bernardino Courthouse. Some people came in, and I stood up, and, … [said,] "Nice to meet you." This was two decades after that. This fellow shook hands and said, "We've met before." I said, "I'm sorry. I've forgotten. Where was it?" He said, "It was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean," and he was one of the guys who had jumped out.

[Assistant] That’s really interesting.

[User] It was nice to see him.

[Assistant] That's terrific. I guess I'd like to go on and ask you a little bit about what you did for post flight. I understand that you had to debrief the press.

[User] Wait. I don't understand.

[Assistant] After your flight, you debriefed the press and you debriefed NASA. What activities did you move on to from there? Were you working still in the Mercury Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had a lot of tasks to perform in the water outside Sealab, and the problem in the water is you don't have traction, and it's because your weight is negated by the buoyancy, by the water. You need foot rests, something that allows you to stand solidly somewhere like you do here, and if you're in a buoyant medium like water, you can't do that. You've got to provide an artificial restraint. That was done in space flight, partly because of what we learned and planned to do things like that in the water, and it was a very good transfer of technology this time from the ocean to space.

[Assistant] Going back to your first response about Sealab and working with Jacques Cousteau, what type of technology was transferred from the space technology into this area?

[User] Well, a lot of it came from the semi-closed circuit breathing devices that we used, and then the closed circuit devices. That's what we used on the moon and used for EVA [Extravehicular Activity]. There's a lot of transfer there. The same kind of underwear that keeps you warm when you're cold and cold when you're hot is worn by [deep sea] divers … [and men] on the moon … So there was a lot of cross-transfer.

[Assistant] It seems like there is a very big difference in the pressure that you experience in space inside that gear and under water, especially if you're very deep under water, there's significant…

[User] Well, yes, except it's a different thing. A swimmer in deep water has an awful lot of water pressure on him, but he doesn't feel it. He can stand over-pressure much more easily than he can under-pressure. The space environment outside the Shuttle, for instance, is fatal. The environment outside a Sealab down to 2,000 feet is fine. We can't go much below that, not because of the pressure effects on the body, but because of the body's response to high-pressure breathing mixes – helium, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen. There's some big unknown there.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your experience in Sealab and what you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, a lot of it came from the semi-closed circuit breathing devices that we used, and then the closed circuit devices. That's what we used on the moon and used for EVA [Extravehicular Activity]. There's a lot of transfer there. The same kind of underwear that keeps you warm when you're cold and cold when you're hot is worn by [deep sea] divers … [and men] on the moon … So there was a lot of cross-transfer.

[Assistant] It seems like there is a very big difference in the pressure that you experience in space inside that gear and under water, especially if you're very deep under water, there's significant…

[User] Well, yes, except it's a different thing. A swimmer in deep water has an awful lot of water pressure on him, but he doesn't feel it. He can stand over-pressure much more easily than he can under-pressure. The space environment outside the Shuttle, for instance, is fatal. The environment outside a Sealab down to 2,000 feet is fine. We can't go much below that, not because of the pressure effects on the body, but because of the body's response to high-pressure breathing mixes – helium, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen. There's some big unknown there.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your experience in Sealab and what you did?

[User] ... [Many don't realize that Sealab was not just a sealed submarine sitting on the ocean floor. It is pressurized and open to the sea so we could work outside on the ocean floor.] Every man had one one-hour dive … sometimes two … [W]e did engineering experiments on salvage equipment; we did marine geology experiments, marine biology, physical oceanography experiments; we did some agricultural experiments inside the lab; and a lot of human physiology. We kept people pretty busy.

[Assistant] And is there still, to this day, a lot of transfer between the underwater program … the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, except it's a different thing. A swimmer in deep water has an awful lot of water pressure on him, but he doesn't feel it. He can stand over-pressure much more easily than he can under-pressure. The space environment outside the Shuttle, for instance, is fatal. The environment outside a Sealab down to 2,000 feet is fine. We can't go much below that, not because of the pressure effects on the body, but because of the body's response to high-pressure breathing mixes – helium, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen. There's some big unknown there.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your experience in Sealab and what you did?

[User] ... [Many don't realize that Sealab was not just a sealed submarine sitting on the ocean floor. It is pressurized and open to the sea so we could work outside on the ocean floor.] Every man had one one-hour dive … sometimes two … [W]e did engineering experiments on salvage equipment; we did marine geology experiments, marine biology, physical oceanography experiments; we did some agricultural experiments inside the lab; and a lot of human physiology. We kept people pretty busy.

[Assistant] And is there still, to this day, a lot of transfer between the underwater program … the space program?

[User] … Space flight tells us a lot about the ocean that we didn't know before and that we couldn't really learn [before] … The sensors we carry in orbiting spacecraft can tell us an awful lot about what's going on on the planet, on dry land, in the water column, and on the ocean floor that we can't learn any other way…

[Assistant] When you returned … to NASA after your leave of absence, did you work at all in EVA training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ... [Many don't realize that Sealab was not just a sealed submarine sitting on the ocean floor. It is pressurized and open to the sea so we could work outside on the ocean floor.] Every man had one one-hour dive … sometimes two … [W]e did engineering experiments on salvage equipment; we did marine geology experiments, marine biology, physical oceanography experiments; we did some agricultural experiments inside the lab; and a lot of human physiology. We kept people pretty busy.

[Assistant] And is there still, to this day, a lot of transfer between the underwater program … the space program?

[User] … Space flight tells us a lot about the ocean that we didn't know before and that we couldn't really learn [before] … The sensors we carry in orbiting spacecraft can tell us an awful lot about what's going on on the planet, on dry land, in the water column, and on the ocean floor that we can't learn any other way…

[Assistant] When you returned … to NASA after your leave of absence, did you work at all in EVA training?

[User] … [Y]es, but it wasn't known as an EVA trainer. It was neutral buoyancy, I think we called [it]. … [A] small tank … led to this. It was [a] humble beginning, but it was very helpful in designing procedures and equipment for use in Apollo and on the moon and, of course, in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the first neutral buoyancy lab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … Space flight tells us a lot about the ocean that we didn't know before and that we couldn't really learn [before] … The sensors we carry in orbiting spacecraft can tell us an awful lot about what's going on on the planet, on dry land, in the water column, and on the ocean floor that we can't learn any other way…

[Assistant] When you returned … to NASA after your leave of absence, did you work at all in EVA training?

[User] … [Y]es, but it wasn't known as an EVA trainer. It was neutral buoyancy, I think we called [it]. … [A] small tank … led to this. It was [a] humble beginning, but it was very helpful in designing procedures and equipment for use in Apollo and on the moon and, of course, in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the first neutral buoyancy lab?

[User] It was very small, … but about the time it got finished, I left for Washington … [for Sealab III] I was in it a couple of times … but I didn't do any space flight analog experiments in it that I can remember. … [I]t worked well, and Huntsville built a big one, too. … [I]t turned out to be a very good idea.

[Assistant] I guess so. When you see the size of this… [Brief interruption; battery change.] So what, then, did you work on after you worked on the Sealab Program and coming back and working with underwater training? I understand you worked with some LEM [Lunar Excursion Module] development at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … [Y]es, but it wasn't known as an EVA trainer. It was neutral buoyancy, I think we called [it]. … [A] small tank … led to this. It was [a] humble beginning, but it was very helpful in designing procedures and equipment for use in Apollo and on the moon and, of course, in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about the first neutral buoyancy lab?

[User] It was very small, … but about the time it got finished, I left for Washington … [for Sealab III] I was in it a couple of times … but I didn't do any space flight analog experiments in it that I can remember. … [I]t worked well, and Huntsville built a big one, too. … [I]t turned out to be a very good idea.

[Assistant] I guess so. When you see the size of this… [Brief interruption; battery change.] So what, then, did you work on after you worked on the Sealab Program and coming back and working with underwater training? I understand you worked with some LEM [Lunar Excursion Module] development at that time.

[User] Well, yes, and I worked with the Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation] folks on LEM design.

[Assistant] Can I ask, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very small, … but about the time it got finished, I left for Washington … [for Sealab III] I was in it a couple of times … but I didn't do any space flight analog experiments in it that I can remember. … [I]t worked well, and Huntsville built a big one, too. … [I]t turned out to be a very good idea.

[Assistant] I guess so. When you see the size of this… [Brief interruption; battery change.] So what, then, did you work on after you worked on the Sealab Program and coming back and working with underwater training? I understand you worked with some LEM [Lunar Excursion Module] development at that time.

[User] Well, yes, and I worked with the Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation] folks on LEM design.

[Assistant] Can I ask, what did you do?

[User] Went to Grumman, talked about cockpit layout, cockpit indicators. That's where LEDs [Light-Emitting Diodes] were first brought to use. We were on the cutting edge of technology then, but we look back at it now, and it's Model Ts, so it was ancient, but fun. That's progress.

[Assistant] Where did you come up with the concept of a cockpit layout for something that was totally…[interrupted]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, and I worked with the Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation] folks on LEM design.

[Assistant] Can I ask, what did you do?

[User] Went to Grumman, talked about cockpit layout, cockpit indicators. That's where LEDs [Light-Emitting Diodes] were first brought to use. We were on the cutting edge of technology then, but we look back at it now, and it's Model Ts, so it was ancient, but fun. That's progress.

[Assistant] Where did you come up with the concept of a cockpit layout for something that was totally…[interrupted]?

[User] … [The LEM] design … has [been] contributed to by hundreds of people, but we at NASA had editorial rights … so to speak, because … [we were] the user, but a lot of good thought from a lot of people went into [the] final design.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the people that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Went to Grumman, talked about cockpit layout, cockpit indicators. That's where LEDs [Light-Emitting Diodes] were first brought to use. We were on the cutting edge of technology then, but we look back at it now, and it's Model Ts, so it was ancient, but fun. That's progress.

[Assistant] Where did you come up with the concept of a cockpit layout for something that was totally…[interrupted]?

[User] … [The LEM] design … has [been] contributed to by hundreds of people, but we at NASA had editorial rights … so to speak, because … [we were] the user, but a lot of good thought from a lot of people went into [the] final design.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the people that you worked with?

[User] Yes. Bob Smyth was the Grumman test pilot who I had, and still have, very high regard for. Neil [A.] Armstrong and I worked a lot with the cockpit layout. [Edwin E.] “Buzz” [Aldrin, Jr.], too. A lot of people did that. It was a big team effort, and it was a great team, and the team effort was so much fun.

[Assistant] And I'm assuming, then, that they had already decided to go with the LOR, or Lunar Orbital Rendezvous, decision at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … [The LEM] design … has [been] contributed to by hundreds of people, but we at NASA had editorial rights … so to speak, because … [we were] the user, but a lot of good thought from a lot of people went into [the] final design.

[Assistant] Do you recall any of the people that you worked with?

[User] Yes. Bob Smyth was the Grumman test pilot who I had, and still have, very high regard for. Neil [A.] Armstrong and I worked a lot with the cockpit layout. [Edwin E.] “Buzz” [Aldrin, Jr.], too. A lot of people did that. It was a big team effort, and it was a great team, and the team effort was so much fun.

[Assistant] And I'm assuming, then, that they had already decided to go with the LOR, or Lunar Orbital Rendezvous, decision at that time.

[User] Yes. That was decided, I think, in '62, early on, maybe '63. I'm not sure. A lot of people and a lot of compromises involved in that, too.

[Assistant] And how many years did you work in that area, developing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Bob Smyth was the Grumman test pilot who I had, and still have, very high regard for. Neil [A.] Armstrong and I worked a lot with the cockpit layout. [Edwin E.] “Buzz” [Aldrin, Jr.], too. A lot of people did that. It was a big team effort, and it was a great team, and the team effort was so much fun.

[Assistant] And I'm assuming, then, that they had already decided to go with the LOR, or Lunar Orbital Rendezvous, decision at that time.

[User] Yes. That was decided, I think, in '62, early on, maybe '63. I'm not sure. A lot of people and a lot of compromises involved in that, too.

[Assistant] And how many years did you work in that area, developing it?

[User] Well, you know, I left in '67. So from '62 on, with the exception of the time I spent with Sealab, it was … [LEM] and … neutral buoyancy, the tank.

[Assistant] And then I believe you were also an executive assistant to Dr. Gilruth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was decided, I think, in '62, early on, maybe '63. I'm not sure. A lot of people and a lot of compromises involved in that, too.

[Assistant] And how many years did you work in that area, developing it?

[User] Well, you know, I left in '67. So from '62 on, with the exception of the time I spent with Sealab, it was … [LEM] and … neutral buoyancy, the tank.

[Assistant] And then I believe you were also an executive assistant to Dr. Gilruth.

[User] Yes, I worked a while for Bob. I didn't care too much for that, but I still kept a finger on the pulse of space flight. But it was not long after that that I decided I would like to continue with the underwater work. I was fascinated with that, and it's something I hadn't done. It also was something that – that's sort of a long story, but I was afraid of the deep ocean open water. I had [a] survival exercise with my crew in Hawaii, and we were out in a life raft simulating ditching at sea. We lost our radar reflector over the side, and my gunner's mate went over for it, and he got it, but he dived into that water that was, as far as I was concerned, filled with sharks, and I wouldn't do that. I realized that I had an unreasonable fear of the ocean, and I was uncomfortable with that … [T]hat was part of the driving force that made me want to work in the ocean. I wanted to get rid of that fear. And I did that. A lot of people have done that since the sixties… [A]s a diving community, [we're not nearly as afraid] these days of sharks as we once were.

[Assistant] Have you approached any in your recent dives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, I left in '67. So from '62 on, with the exception of the time I spent with Sealab, it was … [LEM] and … neutral buoyancy, the tank.

[Assistant] And then I believe you were also an executive assistant to Dr. Gilruth.

[User] Yes, I worked a while for Bob. I didn't care too much for that, but I still kept a finger on the pulse of space flight. But it was not long after that that I decided I would like to continue with the underwater work. I was fascinated with that, and it's something I hadn't done. It also was something that – that's sort of a long story, but I was afraid of the deep ocean open water. I had [a] survival exercise with my crew in Hawaii, and we were out in a life raft simulating ditching at sea. We lost our radar reflector over the side, and my gunner's mate went over for it, and he got it, but he dived into that water that was, as far as I was concerned, filled with sharks, and I wouldn't do that. I realized that I had an unreasonable fear of the ocean, and I was uncomfortable with that … [T]hat was part of the driving force that made me want to work in the ocean. I wanted to get rid of that fear. And I did that. A lot of people have done that since the sixties… [A]s a diving community, [we're not nearly as afraid] these days of sharks as we once were.

[Assistant] Have you approached any in your recent dives?

[User] Oh, sure. I did that in Guam long before that, and that's where I learned to be afraid of them, but it's fear of the unknown. They're known now by most divers. If you keep your wits about you, they're not nearly as scary as we once thought they were.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your work now in the Man-In-The-Sea program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I worked a while for Bob. I didn't care too much for that, but I still kept a finger on the pulse of space flight. But it was not long after that that I decided I would like to continue with the underwater work. I was fascinated with that, and it's something I hadn't done. It also was something that – that's sort of a long story, but I was afraid of the deep ocean open water. I had [a] survival exercise with my crew in Hawaii, and we were out in a life raft simulating ditching at sea. We lost our radar reflector over the side, and my gunner's mate went over for it, and he got it, but he dived into that water that was, as far as I was concerned, filled with sharks, and I wouldn't do that. I realized that I had an unreasonable fear of the ocean, and I was uncomfortable with that … [T]hat was part of the driving force that made me want to work in the ocean. I wanted to get rid of that fear. And I did that. A lot of people have done that since the sixties… [A]s a diving community, [we're not nearly as afraid] these days of sharks as we once were.

[Assistant] Have you approached any in your recent dives?

[User] Oh, sure. I did that in Guam long before that, and that's where I learned to be afraid of them, but it's fear of the unknown. They're known now by most divers. If you keep your wits about you, they're not nearly as scary as we once thought they were.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your work now in the Man-In-The-Sea program?

[User] We have a school going in Key Largo. We've got a small one-atmosphere submersible. We've got a bell and a chamber and an underwater habitat and an underwater lab... It's the only place in the world where certified divers can learn how to work in the ocean, not just play. It's a fascinating, fun place.

[Assistant] What types of things do you learn in working in the ocean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. I did that in Guam long before that, and that's where I learned to be afraid of them, but it's fear of the unknown. They're known now by most divers. If you keep your wits about you, they're not nearly as scary as we once thought they were.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about your work now in the Man-In-The-Sea program?

[User] We have a school going in Key Largo. We've got a small one-atmosphere submersible. We've got a bell and a chamber and an underwater habitat and an underwater lab... It's the only place in the world where certified divers can learn how to work in the ocean, not just play. It's a fascinating, fun place.

[Assistant] What types of things do you learn in working in the ocean?

[User] How to work, how to work with tools, how to make surveys, how to develop a well head, for instance. Any sort of mechanical work that can be done in the water can be done in Key Largo. It's unique in all the world.

[Assistant] Do you think that has any relation to working on the Space Station, the International Space Station we're developing today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have a school going in Key Largo. We've got a small one-atmosphere submersible. We've got a bell and a chamber and an underwater habitat and an underwater lab... It's the only place in the world where certified divers can learn how to work in the ocean, not just play. It's a fascinating, fun place.

[Assistant] What types of things do you learn in working in the ocean?

[User] How to work, how to work with tools, how to make surveys, how to develop a well head, for instance. Any sort of mechanical work that can be done in the water can be done in Key Largo. It's unique in all the world.

[Assistant] Do you think that has any relation to working on the Space Station, the International Space Station we're developing today?

[User] Oh, sure. You're in a weightless environment both places, so there's still some application of what is learned in … [one] environment … to the other.

[Assistant] Do you have any examples of what specifically maybe Space Station can learn from that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How to work, how to work with tools, how to make surveys, how to develop a well head, for instance. Any sort of mechanical work that can be done in the water can be done in Key Largo. It's unique in all the world.

[Assistant] Do you think that has any relation to working on the Space Station, the International Space Station we're developing today?

[User] Oh, sure. You're in a weightless environment both places, so there's still some application of what is learned in … [one] environment … to the other.

[Assistant] Do you have any examples of what specifically maybe Space Station can learn from that?

[User] Tool development. You know, you've got to have anti-torque tools to work with. That's a necessity for EVA people. It's a necessity for the diver, too, and there are more similarities that will be revealed with continual work in both places, I think.

[Assistant] Is there any sort of liaison, or is there any cooperation there at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. You're in a weightless environment both places, so there's still some application of what is learned in … [one] environment … to the other.

[Assistant] Do you have any examples of what specifically maybe Space Station can learn from that?

[User] Tool development. You know, you've got to have anti-torque tools to work with. That's a necessity for EVA people. It's a necessity for the diver, too, and there are more similarities that will be revealed with continual work in both places, I think.

[Assistant] Is there any sort of liaison, or is there any cooperation there at all?

[User] Any what? I didn't understand.

[Assistant] Is there any cooperation at all between the programs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tool development. You know, you've got to have anti-torque tools to work with. That's a necessity for EVA people. It's a necessity for the diver, too, and there are more similarities that will be revealed with continual work in both places, I think.

[Assistant] Is there any sort of liaison, or is there any cooperation there at all?

[User] Any what? I didn't understand.

[Assistant] Is there any cooperation at all between the programs?

[User] Yes. [Although Sealab is now defunct, NASA's currently active Astronaut/Aquanaut] … Mike Gurnhart … [is pursuing] that. He's currently active. I am not. I don't have that sort of an association with NASA anymore, but if there is an application that has use on the other side of the border, somebody will be there to use it. The format has been established.

[Assistant] Now I'd like to ask you just in the overall sense what you thought the most challenging part of your career was, either in the Sealab area or in your space flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Any what? I didn't understand.

[Assistant] Is there any cooperation at all between the programs?

[User] Yes. [Although Sealab is now defunct, NASA's currently active Astronaut/Aquanaut] … Mike Gurnhart … [is pursuing] that. He's currently active. I am not. I don't have that sort of an association with NASA anymore, but if there is an application that has use on the other side of the border, somebody will be there to use it. The format has been established.

[Assistant] Now I'd like to ask you just in the overall sense what you thought the most challenging part of your career was, either in the Sealab area or in your space flight.

[User] Oh, gosh. Most challenging. Probably the most challenging work is designing a spacecraft that will – this is the most challenging intellectual exercise. That's a product of many fine intellects. That's a challenge. There is a challenge to be found in the water which I also cherish having met, and that is the hard work. We've had enough money and enough talent and enough time to build machines and design systems and train people to outwit space. It's what we do: we outwit it. We don't have the time or the money or the talent to do the same thing in the ocean, and also, the ocean is a much tougher adversary, and the work you do in it is not glorious like space flight is. It is cold and it is dark, and it's dirty, and it's mule-hard work. And that's the physical challenge that separates the men from the boys, and I have great respect for that.

[Assistant] Who in your mind – and it can be a group of people or several people, but who in your mind has stood out in your career as being the most admirable, the most accomplished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh. Most challenging. Probably the most challenging work is designing a spacecraft that will – this is the most challenging intellectual exercise. That's a product of many fine intellects. That's a challenge. There is a challenge to be found in the water which I also cherish having met, and that is the hard work. We've had enough money and enough talent and enough time to build machines and design systems and train people to outwit space. It's what we do: we outwit it. We don't have the time or the money or the talent to do the same thing in the ocean, and also, the ocean is a much tougher adversary, and the work you do in it is not glorious like space flight is. It is cold and it is dark, and it's dirty, and it's mule-hard work. And that's the physical challenge that separates the men from the boys, and I have great respect for that.

[Assistant] Who in your mind – and it can be a group of people or several people, but who in your mind has stood out in your career as being the most admirable, the most accomplished?

[User] Well, I've got two heroes in my career. One is Wernher von Braun, because his blinding genius got us to the moon. And Cousteau, he's my other hero. [John F.] Kennedy, [Jr.,] of course, was important to lunar flight, too, because it was his charisma that got the nation behind the idea, but von Braun has my vote in space and Cousteau has it in the ocean.

[Assistant] What did you find most admirable about those two men?

[User] Those two men? Well, it was von Braun's intellect, but he had a charisma, too, that was marvelous. Cousteau, because of the work he did in an area that wasn't nearly as glorified as space was, but where von Braun had charisma, Cousteau had magic, and both have their value.

[Assistant] An interesting perspective. What do you feel was your most successful time in your career?