[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Some of them they do go to towns and return back but not girls.

[Assistant] What is the difference?

[User] Some girls end up getting married by the “Swahilis"; For us Maasai, we don’t like to interact with the “Swahilis” especially in marriage issues. So it is hard for the girls to come back.

[Assistant] So even here in Mela, there are youths who do not practice any other activity?

[User] It is hard. But if there was provision of education about agriculture irrigation and provision of loans, youths would participate.

[Assistant] What do people in Mela do in order to overcome this situation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Some girls end up getting married by the “Swahilis"; For us Maasai, we don’t like to interact with the “Swahilis” especially in marriage issues. So it is hard for the girls to come back.

[Assistant] So even here in Mela, there are youths who do not practice any other activity?

[User] It is hard. But if there was provision of education about agriculture irrigation and provision of loans, youths would participate.

[Assistant] What do people in Mela do in order to overcome this situation?

[User] Our Chairperson writes letters to government and other authorities to ask for help to address this situation

[Assistant] When the youth come back from town, what do other people think of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] It is hard. But if there was provision of education about agriculture irrigation and provision of loans, youths would participate.

[Assistant] What do people in Mela do in order to overcome this situation?

[User] Our Chairperson writes letters to government and other authorities to ask for help to address this situation

[Assistant] When the youth come back from town, what do other people think of them?

[User] He/she can help the family from the income that he/she earned while working in town.

[Assistant] When we were here in the February (2017), we heard that roles of the women have changed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Our Chairperson writes letters to government and other authorities to ask for help to address this situation

[Assistant] When the youth come back from town, what do other people think of them?

[User] He/she can help the family from the income that he/she earned while working in town.

[Assistant] When we were here in the February (2017), we heard that roles of the women have changed?

[User] Yes women have become more independent and obtained education. When a woman is given independence she can do anything in order for the family to get something to eat and also are free to do anything that they want.

[Assistant] And for those who are free to do anything they want, have they brought any changes in the family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] He/she can help the family from the income that he/she earned while working in town.

[Assistant] When we were here in the February (2017), we heard that roles of the women have changed?

[User] Yes women have become more independent and obtained education. When a woman is given independence she can do anything in order for the family to get something to eat and also are free to do anything that they want.

[Assistant] And for those who are free to do anything they want, have they brought any changes in the family?

[User] There are a lot of changes; because they are now free to do other things, it has reduced the burden on the husband who has to provide for everything; so sometimes you may find even the menu has changed.

[Assistant] Are there any effect when you give a woman freedom to do something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes women have become more independent and obtained education. When a woman is given independence she can do anything in order for the family to get something to eat and also are free to do anything that they want.

[Assistant] And for those who are free to do anything they want, have they brought any changes in the family?

[User] There are a lot of changes; because they are now free to do other things, it has reduced the burden on the husband who has to provide for everything; so sometimes you may find even the menu has changed.

[Assistant] Are there any effect when you give a woman freedom to do something?

[User] Yes, when they go out there, they can easily be influenced by people of different kind and can lead to misunderstanding in the family.

[Assistant] CHANGE IN CULTURE, HOW DID IT CHANGE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HERE AND THOSE WHO CAME/MIGRATED?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There are a lot of changes; because they are now free to do other things, it has reduced the burden on the husband who has to provide for everything; so sometimes you may find even the menu has changed.

[Assistant] Are there any effect when you give a woman freedom to do something?

[User] Yes, when they go out there, they can easily be influenced by people of different kind and can lead to misunderstanding in the family.

[Assistant] CHANGE IN CULTURE, HOW DID IT CHANGE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HERE AND THOSE WHO CAME/MIGRATED?

[User] There is no any problem like living with the Gogo; but not any other tribe like from Kilosa when they come in our village we really don’t like them.

[Assistant] For now, are there any tribes that live here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes, when they go out there, they can easily be influenced by people of different kind and can lead to misunderstanding in the family.

[Assistant] CHANGE IN CULTURE, HOW DID IT CHANGE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HERE AND THOSE WHO CAME/MIGRATED?

[User] There is no any problem like living with the Gogo; but not any other tribe like from Kilosa when they come in our village we really don’t like them.

[Assistant] For now, are there any tribes that live here?

[User] Yes there are.

[Assistant] Are there any people moving from here to other villages


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There is no any problem like living with the Gogo; but not any other tribe like from Kilosa when they come in our village we really don’t like them.

[Assistant] For now, are there any tribes that live here?

[User] Yes there are.

[Assistant] Are there any people moving from here to other villages

[User] No, apart from those who move with cattle.

[Assistant] And those who go to town, when they are back do they still practice livestock keeping activities e.g. grazing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes there are.

[Assistant] Are there any people moving from here to other villages

[User] No, apart from those who move with cattle.

[Assistant] And those who go to town, when they are back do they still practice livestock keeping activities e.g. grazing?

[User] YES

[Assistant] Living with other tribes, has it brought any effect to the community, like food etc?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] No, apart from those who move with cattle.

[Assistant] And those who go to town, when they are back do they still practice livestock keeping activities e.g. grazing?

[User] YES

[Assistant] Living with other tribes, has it brought any effect to the community, like food etc?

[User] NO, but we have learned different things from them, and also we learn how to live with different people because before coming of new tribes the Maasai people used to isolate themselves.

[Assistant] It is said that when youths go to town they bring changes to the community what can you say about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] YES

[Assistant] Living with other tribes, has it brought any effect to the community, like food etc?

[User] NO, but we have learned different things from them, and also we learn how to live with different people because before coming of new tribes the Maasai people used to isolate themselves.

[Assistant] It is said that when youths go to town they bring changes to the community what can you say about it?

[User] For those who understands the situation find it okay; but for others they still find it as a challenge and that it is not good for their community.

[Assistant] Inter tribe interaction has brought them to try different kinds of foods, which cash crop is more available in this area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] NO, but we have learned different things from them, and also we learn how to live with different people because before coming of new tribes the Maasai people used to isolate themselves.

[Assistant] It is said that when youths go to town they bring changes to the community what can you say about it?

[User] For those who understands the situation find it okay; but for others they still find it as a challenge and that it is not good for their community.

[Assistant] Inter tribe interaction has brought them to try different kinds of foods, which cash crop is more available in this area?

[User] Maize, because it is what they cultivate a lot, but there is no market that is specific for Maasai

[Assistant] you said earlier that during the dry season the Maasai shift cattle to other areas for pasture and water, who specifically takes the cattle for grazing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] For those who understands the situation find it okay; but for others they still find it as a challenge and that it is not good for their community.

[Assistant] Inter tribe interaction has brought them to try different kinds of foods, which cash crop is more available in this area?

[User] Maize, because it is what they cultivate a lot, but there is no market that is specific for Maasai

[Assistant] you said earlier that during the dry season the Maasai shift cattle to other areas for pasture and water, who specifically takes the cattle for grazing?

[User] Youth

[Assistant] Are there changes on how to prepare food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Maize, because it is what they cultivate a lot, but there is no market that is specific for Maasai

[Assistant] you said earlier that during the dry season the Maasai shift cattle to other areas for pasture and water, who specifically takes the cattle for grazing?

[User] Youth

[Assistant] Are there changes on how to prepare food?

[User] Before, the Maasai used to make very hard stiff porridge but later on they learnt how to prepare stiff porridge, even how to make stew and cook Pilau.

[Assistant] Now would like to talk about conflicts between farmers and pastoralist


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Youth

[Assistant] Are there changes on how to prepare food?

[User] Before, the Maasai used to make very hard stiff porridge but later on they learnt how to prepare stiff porridge, even how to make stew and cook Pilau.

[Assistant] Now would like to talk about conflicts between farmers and pastoralist

[User] There is no conflict in Mela

[Assistant] How do people learn about healthy living, and Balanced diet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Before, the Maasai used to make very hard stiff porridge but later on they learnt how to prepare stiff porridge, even how to make stew and cook Pilau.

[Assistant] Now would like to talk about conflicts between farmers and pastoralist

[User] There is no conflict in Mela

[Assistant] How do people learn about healthy living, and Balanced diet?

[User] There is no hospital or dispensary in Mela, but when they go for RCH services is when they are educated on how and what to eat during pregnancy.

[Assistant] What else is being taught about healthy living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There is no conflict in Mela

[Assistant] How do people learn about healthy living, and Balanced diet?

[User] There is no hospital or dispensary in Mela, but when they go for RCH services is when they are educated on how and what to eat during pregnancy.

[Assistant] What else is being taught about healthy living?

[User] The child is supposed to eat good food and also the mother, porridge should be mixed with milk.

[Assistant] What should be done in order for this information to reach everyone in the community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There is no hospital or dispensary in Mela, but when they go for RCH services is when they are educated on how and what to eat during pregnancy.

[Assistant] What else is being taught about healthy living?

[User] The child is supposed to eat good food and also the mother, porridge should be mixed with milk.

[Assistant] What should be done in order for this information to reach everyone in the community?

[User] There should be nurses coming twice a week in order to educate people in the community,

[Assistant] To whom should this education be provided to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There should be nurses coming twice a week in order to educate people in the community,

[Assistant] To whom should this education be provided to?

[User] Women

[Assistant] Why?

[User] Because the mother is the one who is so closer to the child than any other person.

[Assistant] Apart from hospitals, do you think schools can be used to provide that kind of education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Women

[Assistant] Why?

[User] Because the mother is the one who is so closer to the child than any other person.

[Assistant] Apart from hospitals, do you think schools can be used to provide that kind of education?

[User] Yes if there is that opportunity then it is okay, but even NGOs

[Assistant] Do people in Mela use radios?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Because the mother is the one who is so closer to the child than any other person.

[Assistant] Apart from hospitals, do you think schools can be used to provide that kind of education?

[User] Yes if there is that opportunity then it is okay, but even NGOs

[Assistant] Do people in Mela use radios?

[User] NO, I have not seen that in here, but something should be done in order for the knowledge to reach many people. Agriculture education should also be provided.

[Assistant] Whom do you think will be able to educate other people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes if there is that opportunity then it is okay, but even NGOs

[Assistant] Do people in Mela use radios?

[User] NO, I have not seen that in here, but something should be done in order for the knowledge to reach many people. Agriculture education should also be provided.

[Assistant] Whom do you think will be able to educate other people?

[User]
We will choose people who are literate, able to read and write, who will be able to spread the knowledge to other people. Thank you so much MR. Kassim we have reach the end of out conversation, unless you have some concerns.

What we would like to request is for dispensary and infrastructure.

[Assistant] What about balanced diet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] NO, I have not seen that in here, but something should be done in order for the knowledge to reach many people. Agriculture education should also be provided.

[Assistant] Whom do you think will be able to educate other people?

[User]
We will choose people who are literate, able to read and write, who will be able to spread the knowledge to other people. Thank you so much MR. Kassim we have reach the end of out conversation, unless you have some concerns.

What we would like to request is for dispensary and infrastructure.

[Assistant] What about balanced diet?

[User] Yes, I think we should change how we eat for our health, like cassava etc.

[Assistant] Again thank you so much, we have reached the end of our interview, thank you for your cooperation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] OK, great.

[Assistant] OK, so I guess start… How old are you?

[User] [Mid 40s]

[Assistant] And where are you located?

[User] I'm in [location] outside of New York City. The main practices were located in New York City, though, in Jackson Heights and Corona.

[Assistant] Is that where you work now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] [Mid 40s]

[Assistant] And where are you located?

[User] I'm in [location] outside of New York City. The main practices were located in New York City, though, in Jackson Heights and Corona.

[Assistant] Is that where you work now?

[User] [PII redacted]

[Assistant] What's your position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I'm in [location] outside of New York City. The main practices were located in New York City, though, in Jackson Heights and Corona.

[Assistant] Is that where you work now?

[User] [PII redacted]

[Assistant] What's your position.

[User] Nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] And was that what you were doing in January 2020.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] [PII redacted]

[Assistant] What's your position.

[User] Nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] And was that what you were doing in January 2020.

[User] In January of 2020. I was four days a week in [Queens neighborhood].

[Assistant] as a nurse practitioner?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] And was that what you were doing in January 2020.

[User] In January of 2020. I was four days a week in [Queens neighborhood].

[Assistant] as a nurse practitioner?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What kind of facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] In January of 2020. I was four days a week in [Queens neighborhood].

[Assistant] as a nurse practitioner?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What kind of facility?

[User]
Oh, it's a Medicaid clinic, so it's an article 28 facility. And we thought that they'd probably lean on us. No, not at all.

That was the original intent on paper of those facilities.

[Assistant] What's Article 28.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What kind of facility?

[User]
Oh, it's a Medicaid clinic, so it's an article 28 facility. And we thought that they'd probably lean on us. No, not at all.

That was the original intent on paper of those facilities.

[Assistant] What's Article 28.

[User]
Eight? It meant that it's actually regulated by the New York State Health Department, so that we're supposed to be a community outreach.

Oh, yes. So we thought that we would never close during any crisis, which we didn’t. We stayed open, but they didn't really need us for anything. They took over other facilities. They took over surgical facilities to use their space but they did nothing with us.

So, yeah.

[Assistant] So you’re an LPN-


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Oh, it's a Medicaid clinic, so it's an article 28 facility. And we thought that they'd probably lean on us. No, not at all.

That was the original intent on paper of those facilities.

[Assistant] What's Article 28.

[User]
Eight? It meant that it's actually regulated by the New York State Health Department, so that we're supposed to be a community outreach.

Oh, yes. So we thought that we would never close during any crisis, which we didn’t. We stayed open, but they didn't really need us for anything. They took over other facilities. They took over surgical facilities to use their space but they did nothing with us.

So, yeah.

[Assistant] So you’re an LPN-

[User] A nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] Nurse practitioner at these clinics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Eight? It meant that it's actually regulated by the New York State Health Department, so that we're supposed to be a community outreach.

Oh, yes. So we thought that we would never close during any crisis, which we didn’t. We stayed open, but they didn't really need us for anything. They took over other facilities. They took over surgical facilities to use their space but they did nothing with us.

So, yeah.

[Assistant] So you’re an LPN-

[User] A nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] Nurse practitioner at these clinics.

[User] Clinics that. Yes, essentially they end up being like multi-specialty clinics that cater to Medicaid people.

[Assistant] OK. So how many patients do you have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] A nurse practitioner.

[Assistant] Nurse practitioner at these clinics.

[User] Clinics that. Yes, essentially they end up being like multi-specialty clinics that cater to Medicaid people.

[Assistant] OK. So how many patients do you have.

[User]
Not a lot. Couple of hundred. Yeah. The the clinic predated the change in the neighborhood. So the neighbor has been gentrified. But remember, we still have patients, but they're kind of they're traveling into us now.

The other office, I probably have more now. Yeah.

[Assistant] I thought you worked at [Assisted Living Facility].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Clinics that. Yes, essentially they end up being like multi-specialty clinics that cater to Medicaid people.

[Assistant] OK. So how many patients do you have.

[User]
Not a lot. Couple of hundred. Yeah. The the clinic predated the change in the neighborhood. So the neighbor has been gentrified. But remember, we still have patients, but they're kind of they're traveling into us now.

The other office, I probably have more now. Yeah.

[Assistant] I thought you worked at [Assisted Living Facility].

[User] [Assisted Living Facility]. One morning a week.

[Assistant] So so when did you first hear about COVID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Not a lot. Couple of hundred. Yeah. The the clinic predated the change in the neighborhood. So the neighbor has been gentrified. But remember, we still have patients, but they're kind of they're traveling into us now.

The other office, I probably have more now. Yeah.

[Assistant] I thought you worked at [Assisted Living Facility].

[User] [Assisted Living Facility]. One morning a week.

[Assistant] So so when did you first hear about COVID?

[User] Probably around the time that they diagnosed the guy in Seattle. So I want to say that was around the end of January 2020.

[Assistant] Can you tell me some more about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] [Assisted Living Facility]. One morning a week.

[Assistant] So so when did you first hear about COVID?

[User] Probably around the time that they diagnosed the guy in Seattle. So I want to say that was around the end of January 2020.

[Assistant] Can you tell me some more about that?

[User]
It seemed like it was going to be a problem, to be honest. And our some patients were getting nervous and everybody had an upper respiratory infection at that point, which turned out to be nothing. But they were really quite concerned. We ended up we were having a somewhat awkward flu season that year to begin with. In December we ended up with a bunch of hospitalized upper respiratory infections and all of their liver enzymes went out which had seemed abnormal to everybody.

So by the time we heard about COVID, everybody was already curious. I didn't think it was going to be as bad as it was in January.

[Assistant] But it seemed like it was going to be a problem. You said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Probably around the time that they diagnosed the guy in Seattle. So I want to say that was around the end of January 2020.

[Assistant] Can you tell me some more about that?

[User]
It seemed like it was going to be a problem, to be honest. And our some patients were getting nervous and everybody had an upper respiratory infection at that point, which turned out to be nothing. But they were really quite concerned. We ended up we were having a somewhat awkward flu season that year to begin with. In December we ended up with a bunch of hospitalized upper respiratory infections and all of their liver enzymes went out which had seemed abnormal to everybody.

So by the time we heard about COVID, everybody was already curious. I didn't think it was going to be as bad as it was in January.

[Assistant] But it seemed like it was going to be a problem. You said.

[User]
Oh, yeah. There was no way that it's not going to be a problem.

You know, like, you could hope that it was going to be like, SARS or MERS, but things just spread, there’s too much travel now. And once, once we started getting hints that China was building really rapid medical facilities, you knew that there was something there And I was jealous because we would never be able to build a really rapid medical facility.

[Assistant] OK, thank you. That OK? Yes. That was exactly the logic I had at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
It seemed like it was going to be a problem, to be honest. And our some patients were getting nervous and everybody had an upper respiratory infection at that point, which turned out to be nothing. But they were really quite concerned. We ended up we were having a somewhat awkward flu season that year to begin with. In December we ended up with a bunch of hospitalized upper respiratory infections and all of their liver enzymes went out which had seemed abnormal to everybody.

So by the time we heard about COVID, everybody was already curious. I didn't think it was going to be as bad as it was in January.

[Assistant] But it seemed like it was going to be a problem. You said.

[User]
Oh, yeah. There was no way that it's not going to be a problem.

You know, like, you could hope that it was going to be like, SARS or MERS, but things just spread, there’s too much travel now. And once, once we started getting hints that China was building really rapid medical facilities, you knew that there was something there And I was jealous because we would never be able to build a really rapid medical facility.

[Assistant] OK, thank you. That OK? Yes. That was exactly the logic I had at the time.

[User] So, yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] So did you discuss this with anyone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Oh, yeah. There was no way that it's not going to be a problem.

You know, like, you could hope that it was going to be like, SARS or MERS, but things just spread, there’s too much travel now. And once, once we started getting hints that China was building really rapid medical facilities, you knew that there was something there And I was jealous because we would never be able to build a really rapid medical facility.

[Assistant] OK, thank you. That OK? Yes. That was exactly the logic I had at the time.

[User] So, yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] So did you discuss this with anyone?

[User]
My boss at the time is Dr. [name], who actually ended up dying of COVID, who did not believe in COVID here. He got it in the first wave. The whole time I said it was coming. He really didn't think it was going to be a big deal. It was just amazing. And then he caught it then then he knew.

And then he actually didn't want me leaving the office to go to any of the facilities because he's like, you don't want this. Yeah.

[Assistant] So what were those conversations like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] So, yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] So did you discuss this with anyone?

[User]
My boss at the time is Dr. [name], who actually ended up dying of COVID, who did not believe in COVID here. He got it in the first wave. The whole time I said it was coming. He really didn't think it was going to be a big deal. It was just amazing. And then he caught it then then he knew.

And then he actually didn't want me leaving the office to go to any of the facilities because he's like, you don't want this. Yeah.

[Assistant] So what were those conversations like?

[User]
Hold on, let me just grab a power cord.

I wanted more masks.

And we were getting worried. [Assisted Living Facility] started preparing for COVID before the health department did And they wanted to lock everybody in their rooms. I'm actually in the health department originally. Wouldn't give them permission to do that. You actually have regulations that everybody had to come down for two meals a day, which makes sense, except if you suddenly don't want anyone interacting. So we were worried about that.

We also stopped going into [Assisted Living Facility] because he was being exposed. We figured at another facility and we didn't want to bring it in, because even before any cases were diagnosed in our circle, we were suspecting. and he had a patient who'd spent like a week in the hospital severely ill, and they didn't end up diagnosing him until right before he died.

But by then, everybody had already spent ten days interacting with the guy Yeah.

[Assistant] Sorry. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
My boss at the time is Dr. [name], who actually ended up dying of COVID, who did not believe in COVID here. He got it in the first wave. The whole time I said it was coming. He really didn't think it was going to be a big deal. It was just amazing. And then he caught it then then he knew.

And then he actually didn't want me leaving the office to go to any of the facilities because he's like, you don't want this. Yeah.

[Assistant] So what were those conversations like?

[User]
Hold on, let me just grab a power cord.

I wanted more masks.

And we were getting worried. [Assisted Living Facility] started preparing for COVID before the health department did And they wanted to lock everybody in their rooms. I'm actually in the health department originally. Wouldn't give them permission to do that. You actually have regulations that everybody had to come down for two meals a day, which makes sense, except if you suddenly don't want anyone interacting. So we were worried about that.

We also stopped going into [Assisted Living Facility] because he was being exposed. We figured at another facility and we didn't want to bring it in, because even before any cases were diagnosed in our circle, we were suspecting. and he had a patient who'd spent like a week in the hospital severely ill, and they didn't end up diagnosing him until right before he died.

But by then, everybody had already spent ten days interacting with the guy Yeah.

[Assistant] Sorry. Go ahead.

[User] Oh, before it actually hit, though, we had managed to order a decent number of regular masks and gowns from the supplier The.

[Assistant] Who's the we?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Hold on, let me just grab a power cord.

I wanted more masks.

And we were getting worried. [Assisted Living Facility] started preparing for COVID before the health department did And they wanted to lock everybody in their rooms. I'm actually in the health department originally. Wouldn't give them permission to do that. You actually have regulations that everybody had to come down for two meals a day, which makes sense, except if you suddenly don't want anyone interacting. So we were worried about that.

We also stopped going into [Assisted Living Facility] because he was being exposed. We figured at another facility and we didn't want to bring it in, because even before any cases were diagnosed in our circle, we were suspecting. and he had a patient who'd spent like a week in the hospital severely ill, and they didn't end up diagnosing him until right before he died.

But by then, everybody had already spent ten days interacting with the guy Yeah.

[Assistant] Sorry. Go ahead.

[User] Oh, before it actually hit, though, we had managed to order a decent number of regular masks and gowns from the supplier The.

[Assistant] Who's the we?

[User] Oh, uh Him and myself.

[Assistant] OK. So you convinced him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Oh, before it actually hit, though, we had managed to order a decent number of regular masks and gowns from the supplier The.

[Assistant] Who's the we?

[User] Oh, uh Him and myself.

[Assistant] OK. So you convinced him.

[User] He was reluctant, but he was probably shy and shut me up. Okay. He had two offices to run, and he didn't want them out of commission. I mean, just from a business point of view, if his office is closed in the middle of something happening, he was going to lose money.

[Assistant] Was his position that the masks were ineffective? or was that COVID was not a threat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Oh, uh Him and myself.

[Assistant] OK. So you convinced him.

[User] He was reluctant, but he was probably shy and shut me up. Okay. He had two offices to run, and he didn't want them out of commission. I mean, just from a business point of view, if his office is closed in the middle of something happening, he was going to lose money.

[Assistant] Was his position that the masks were ineffective? or was that COVID was not a threat.

[User] He believed we were all overreacting.

[Assistant] Did he say why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] He was reluctant, but he was probably shy and shut me up. Okay. He had two offices to run, and he didn't want them out of commission. I mean, just from a business point of view, if his office is closed in the middle of something happening, he was going to lose money.

[Assistant] Was his position that the masks were ineffective? or was that COVID was not a threat.

[User] He believed we were all overreacting.

[Assistant] Did he say why?

[User]
He was getting WhatsApp discussions. Like there were WhatsApp threads where everybody was insisting that they'd spoken to their colleague in China - this was all a physician thing. They spoke to their colleague in China. It's not a big deal. As soon as the weather gets warm, we'll be fine. I mean, it was amazing.

All of the main talking points were on his WhatsApp feed before they really became talking points.

And nobody trusted China. But in a sense, why would somebody lie and say they had something worse? You know?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK. So they said on the WhatsApp threads that there would be that they had colleagues in China who said it wasn't that bad. While China was locking down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] He believed we were all overreacting.

[Assistant] Did he say why?

[User]
He was getting WhatsApp discussions. Like there were WhatsApp threads where everybody was insisting that they'd spoken to their colleague in China - this was all a physician thing. They spoke to their colleague in China. It's not a big deal. As soon as the weather gets warm, we'll be fine. I mean, it was amazing.

All of the main talking points were on his WhatsApp feed before they really became talking points.

And nobody trusted China. But in a sense, why would somebody lie and say they had something worse? You know?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. OK. So they said on the WhatsApp threads that there would be that they had colleagues in China who said it wasn't that bad. While China was locking down.

[User]
Yes.

Huh.

[Assistant] It's interesting. I haven't heard that one before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Yes.

Huh.

[Assistant] It's interesting. I haven't heard that one before.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] But yeah.

[User] And on those same WhatsApp things, when we had to reuse the masks, they were telling us, oh, just put them out in the sun for half an hour. So like that that whole feed was like, OK, well, just stick on your dashboard for half an hour. You'll be good to go.

[Assistant] The UV, right? Khkhkh. OK, so this is this is all happening in January and February, correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] But yeah.

[User] And on those same WhatsApp things, when we had to reuse the masks, they were telling us, oh, just put them out in the sun for half an hour. So like that that whole feed was like, OK, well, just stick on your dashboard for half an hour. You'll be good to go.

[Assistant] The UV, right? Khkhkh. OK, so this is this is all happening in January and February, correct?

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say February by that point. OK.

[Assistant] So you said it seemed like it was going to be a problem and you've had this weird flu season with the liver enzymes and then… can you describe how you were feeling around this time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] And on those same WhatsApp things, when we had to reuse the masks, they were telling us, oh, just put them out in the sun for half an hour. So like that that whole feed was like, OK, well, just stick on your dashboard for half an hour. You'll be good to go.

[Assistant] The UV, right? Khkhkh. OK, so this is this is all happening in January and February, correct?

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say February by that point. OK.

[Assistant] So you said it seemed like it was going to be a problem and you've had this weird flu season with the liver enzymes and then… can you describe how you were feeling around this time?

[User]
I wasn't that anxious about it. I didn't envision the mass death Like, New York really got hit harder. And I think it was just a series of unfortunate things that all came together at the same time. But I think it was just the volume of the patients. But in leading up to it, I didn't think that many people were going to die.

So I wasn't too concerned. And at that point, I wasn't concerned that I'd be really in any danger. You know.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment or an oh shit moment when you realized how bad it was going to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, I'm going to say February by that point. OK.

[Assistant] So you said it seemed like it was going to be a problem and you've had this weird flu season with the liver enzymes and then… can you describe how you were feeling around this time?

[User]
I wasn't that anxious about it. I didn't envision the mass death Like, New York really got hit harder. And I think it was just a series of unfortunate things that all came together at the same time. But I think it was just the volume of the patients. But in leading up to it, I didn't think that many people were going to die.

So I wasn't too concerned. And at that point, I wasn't concerned that I'd be really in any danger. You know.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment or an oh shit moment when you realized how bad it was going to be.

[User]
When they started to lockdown Italy. When they started the lockdown? Well, because suddenly it was another country. I mean, halfway around the world, they were locking down They were- we had much more media coverage from Italy than we did from China. And those providers really looked quite unhappy.

And I want to say, by the time they locked down Italy, they had relaxed a lot of the copyright or whatever it is on medical journals. But you could see everything. Pre-print, by the time Italy was coming around So suddenly you could Google and find out an awful lot about a virus that no one knew anything about. And you still didn't get great information, but you got people's opinions Like, even at that time, Italy was saying that you wanted to treat it more like an altitude sickness.

And that struck me because it seemed like then they were confused how to treat and they knew it was going to be a giant problem.

I think that's when I got nervous OK. Thank you.

[Assistant] So this is I mean, you've covered this already, but this could you summarize how your position changed on this before the first wave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
I wasn't that anxious about it. I didn't envision the mass death Like, New York really got hit harder. And I think it was just a series of unfortunate things that all came together at the same time. But I think it was just the volume of the patients. But in leading up to it, I didn't think that many people were going to die.

So I wasn't too concerned. And at that point, I wasn't concerned that I'd be really in any danger. You know.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment or an oh shit moment when you realized how bad it was going to be.

[User]
When they started to lockdown Italy. When they started the lockdown? Well, because suddenly it was another country. I mean, halfway around the world, they were locking down They were- we had much more media coverage from Italy than we did from China. And those providers really looked quite unhappy.

And I want to say, by the time they locked down Italy, they had relaxed a lot of the copyright or whatever it is on medical journals. But you could see everything. Pre-print, by the time Italy was coming around So suddenly you could Google and find out an awful lot about a virus that no one knew anything about. And you still didn't get great information, but you got people's opinions Like, even at that time, Italy was saying that you wanted to treat it more like an altitude sickness.

And that struck me because it seemed like then they were confused how to treat and they knew it was going to be a giant problem.

I think that's when I got nervous OK. Thank you.

[Assistant] So this is I mean, you've covered this already, but this could you summarize how your position changed on this before the first wave.

[User] Yes. I actually became much more concerned about it. And bothered to stockpile stuff, which I never do Yes.

[Assistant] So you said you stockpiled the masks and the gowns.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
When they started to lockdown Italy. When they started the lockdown? Well, because suddenly it was another country. I mean, halfway around the world, they were locking down They were- we had much more media coverage from Italy than we did from China. And those providers really looked quite unhappy.

And I want to say, by the time they locked down Italy, they had relaxed a lot of the copyright or whatever it is on medical journals. But you could see everything. Pre-print, by the time Italy was coming around So suddenly you could Google and find out an awful lot about a virus that no one knew anything about. And you still didn't get great information, but you got people's opinions Like, even at that time, Italy was saying that you wanted to treat it more like an altitude sickness.

And that struck me because it seemed like then they were confused how to treat and they knew it was going to be a giant problem.

I think that's when I got nervous OK. Thank you.

[Assistant] So this is I mean, you've covered this already, but this could you summarize how your position changed on this before the first wave.

[User] Yes. I actually became much more concerned about it. And bothered to stockpile stuff, which I never do Yes.

[Assistant] So you said you stockpiled the masks and the gowns.

[User] Mask the gowns. And I actually started preparing the house. I mean, I normally run the house like I run out of milk and I have to get the supermarket, paper towels... And I got things more ready in case we were going to be locked down. I didn't think it was going to be a disaster, but I thought we could potentially be locked in our houses for a few weeks.

[Assistant] So you got your bean stockpile?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes. I actually became much more concerned about it. And bothered to stockpile stuff, which I never do Yes.

[Assistant] So you said you stockpiled the masks and the gowns.

[User] Mask the gowns. And I actually started preparing the house. I mean, I normally run the house like I run out of milk and I have to get the supermarket, paper towels... And I got things more ready in case we were going to be locked down. I didn't think it was going to be a disaster, but I thought we could potentially be locked in our houses for a few weeks.

[Assistant] So you got your bean stockpile?

[User] Oh, yes. I did pasta, everything. But now, by the time I wanted to stockpile everybody and their mother had already bought out the Clorox wipes. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you change your behavior at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Mask the gowns. And I actually started preparing the house. I mean, I normally run the house like I run out of milk and I have to get the supermarket, paper towels... And I got things more ready in case we were going to be locked down. I didn't think it was going to be a disaster, but I thought we could potentially be locked in our houses for a few weeks.

[Assistant] So you got your bean stockpile?

[User] Oh, yes. I did pasta, everything. But now, by the time I wanted to stockpile everybody and their mother had already bought out the Clorox wipes. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you change your behavior at all?

[User]
Not of that point, really. I mean, we were still seeing patients. I was wearing. I'm trying to think I think I moved to an N95 before the city got locked down.

Maybe by about a week. I mean, it wasn't super early, but yeah, we'd actually gotten them from a paint store.

[Assistant] And what did your organization do or your employer do to prepare for this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Oh, yes. I did pasta, everything. But now, by the time I wanted to stockpile everybody and their mother had already bought out the Clorox wipes. Yes.

[Assistant] Do you change your behavior at all?

[User]
Not of that point, really. I mean, we were still seeing patients. I was wearing. I'm trying to think I think I moved to an N95 before the city got locked down.

Maybe by about a week. I mean, it wasn't super early, but yeah, we'd actually gotten them from a paint store.

[Assistant] And what did your organization do or your employer do to prepare for this?

[User]
He talked to the labs to get all the swabs so that we could get he wanted to swab for PCRs. He was still looking to make money. But yes, he was on top of that. By the time it really hit, we actually had lab contacts and hundreds upon hundreds of PCR swabs. There's a certain irony because the lab that had agreed to do it was not up and running with it by the time it hit.

Which is unfortunate. So then we sent everything to Quest, and at that point they had like an eight day turnaround time There's a lot of preparing for nothing, but there was preparing.

[Assistant] It was a little ironic too that he would have to wait a long time for the test.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Not of that point, really. I mean, we were still seeing patients. I was wearing. I'm trying to think I think I moved to an N95 before the city got locked down.

Maybe by about a week. I mean, it wasn't super early, but yeah, we'd actually gotten them from a paint store.

[Assistant] And what did your organization do or your employer do to prepare for this?

[User]
He talked to the labs to get all the swabs so that we could get he wanted to swab for PCRs. He was still looking to make money. But yes, he was on top of that. By the time it really hit, we actually had lab contacts and hundreds upon hundreds of PCR swabs. There's a certain irony because the lab that had agreed to do it was not up and running with it by the time it hit.

Which is unfortunate. So then we sent everything to Quest, and at that point they had like an eight day turnaround time There's a lot of preparing for nothing, but there was preparing.

[Assistant] It was a little ironic too that he would have to wait a long time for the test.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] So aside from the meetings with him that you've mentioned before, with any any other meetings or group discussions about this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
He talked to the labs to get all the swabs so that we could get he wanted to swab for PCRs. He was still looking to make money. But yes, he was on top of that. By the time it really hit, we actually had lab contacts and hundreds upon hundreds of PCR swabs. There's a certain irony because the lab that had agreed to do it was not up and running with it by the time it hit.

Which is unfortunate. So then we sent everything to Quest, and at that point they had like an eight day turnaround time There's a lot of preparing for nothing, but there was preparing.

[Assistant] It was a little ironic too that he would have to wait a long time for the test.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] So aside from the meetings with him that you've mentioned before, with any any other meetings or group discussions about this.

[User]
The, uh, I'm trying to remember what her role was… Essentially, we had a consultant that would create policy. She had a more official title than that.

But we did meet with her. And by the time, obviously before the city was locked down, we had a written policy about what we were going to do about COVID. But look, OK, the volume was so severely misjudged. So inside the facility, we actually have one negative pressure room So, yes, in our minds, we were going to be able to run life based on this one negative pressure room.

They'd be triage. They'd go right in there Yeah.

Yeah. We were positive to be very end. But there was there was a rather elaborate policy that looking back on, it made no sense. But yeah.

[Assistant] Why is it to elaborate? Why didn't it make sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] So aside from the meetings with him that you've mentioned before, with any any other meetings or group discussions about this.

[User]
The, uh, I'm trying to remember what her role was… Essentially, we had a consultant that would create policy. She had a more official title than that.

But we did meet with her. And by the time, obviously before the city was locked down, we had a written policy about what we were going to do about COVID. But look, OK, the volume was so severely misjudged. So inside the facility, we actually have one negative pressure room So, yes, in our minds, we were going to be able to run life based on this one negative pressure room.

They'd be triage. They'd go right in there Yeah.

Yeah. We were positive to be very end. But there was there was a rather elaborate policy that looking back on, it made no sense. But yeah.

[Assistant] Why is it to elaborate? Why didn't it make sense?

[User] Because we couldn't run with one room. Okay. So the original policy is that you have this negative pressure room. You put your patient in there, and then you leave that room vacant for 4 hours for all the air to cycle through. I mean, it's fine. If you were going to get two patients a day. Yeah.

[Assistant] So why do you think you guys misjudged the volume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
The, uh, I'm trying to remember what her role was… Essentially, we had a consultant that would create policy. She had a more official title than that.

But we did meet with her. And by the time, obviously before the city was locked down, we had a written policy about what we were going to do about COVID. But look, OK, the volume was so severely misjudged. So inside the facility, we actually have one negative pressure room So, yes, in our minds, we were going to be able to run life based on this one negative pressure room.

They'd be triage. They'd go right in there Yeah.

Yeah. We were positive to be very end. But there was there was a rather elaborate policy that looking back on, it made no sense. But yeah.

[Assistant] Why is it to elaborate? Why didn't it make sense?

[User] Because we couldn't run with one room. Okay. So the original policy is that you have this negative pressure room. You put your patient in there, and then you leave that room vacant for 4 hours for all the air to cycle through. I mean, it's fine. If you were going to get two patients a day. Yeah.

[Assistant] So why do you think you guys misjudged the volume?

[User] It was unthinkable that this would have happened and for years, everybody's been asking us to prepare for things like Ebola, which never materialized. And you sort of just let your guard down Now.

[Assistant] So was H1N1 similar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Because we couldn't run with one room. Okay. So the original policy is that you have this negative pressure room. You put your patient in there, and then you leave that room vacant for 4 hours for all the air to cycle through. I mean, it's fine. If you were going to get two patients a day. Yeah.

[Assistant] So why do you think you guys misjudged the volume?

[User] It was unthinkable that this would have happened and for years, everybody's been asking us to prepare for things like Ebola, which never materialized. And you sort of just let your guard down Now.

[Assistant] So was H1N1 similar?

[User]
H1N1 I remember… It wasn't such- the problem. OK, so there's a big psychological difference with the flu. One people are vaccinated, so the mortality is lesser. And two, we have antivirals. So we whenever we think we're having a bad flu season, we can prophylaxis entire facilities with antiviral meds OK, they take them at half the dose until seven days after the last case.

So you really can successfully tamp out an outbreak. And even for people in the community, if somebody comes in and they're vulnerable and they have the flu, their wife is often you're spouse is often treated prophylactically. So you can actually mitigate the risk with something like the flu. So we never had to really panic in the past.

It’d probably be more like working in the days before antibiotics you know, like where something comes in, there's literally nothing you could do for people other than say, all right, drink some fluids. I think hubris. We never imagined that we'd be in a position where we wouldn't be able to control everything.

[Assistant] Was anyone sounding the alarm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Of everything! I mean, not enough to cover the entire nation. I mean, the scope of this was just unreal. But I would have thought that they could have gotten like the major cities through a couple of weeks I mean, in the event that there's ever an attack, I don't think there's anything in that stockpile now. but I used to believe that there was a significant amount of stuff in the stockpile.

But no. we could produce stuff if we want it, but we don't want to.

[Assistant] And it would take a few weeks at minimum.

[User]
Or at minimum, we'd have to start now. I mean, if we want to avoid this again, we have to change our behavior now so that we can prepare because this is going to keep happening. There's no way with air travel. First, this is not going away. I mean, it's just not. And if it continues to mutate and becomes less significant, we're OK.

But if it mutates to something more deadly, where are we It's almost like we've learned nothing other than now we have vaccines, but on a behavioral level, I don't think we've changed.

[Assistant] So, I mean, so looking back, I mean, is there anything you would have done differently as an individual?

[User]
I probably would have forced myself into an N95 earlier but ended up being a moot point for me. But that is so OK. So we had two offices at the time that other office all got copied it ended up shut down for easily six weeks. We lost some of our employees quit out of anger at having gotten COVID because they were running around.

That office was still running around in the surgical masks at the time.

Yeah.

[Assistant] I've heard some places tried to ban their employees wearing N95 masks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Or at minimum, we'd have to start now. I mean, if we want to avoid this again, we have to change our behavior now so that we can prepare because this is going to keep happening. There's no way with air travel. First, this is not going away. I mean, it's just not. And if it continues to mutate and becomes less significant, we're OK.

But if it mutates to something more deadly, where are we It's almost like we've learned nothing other than now we have vaccines, but on a behavioral level, I don't think we've changed.

[Assistant] So, I mean, so looking back, I mean, is there anything you would have done differently as an individual?

[User]
I probably would have forced myself into an N95 earlier but ended up being a moot point for me. But that is so OK. So we had two offices at the time that other office all got copied it ended up shut down for easily six weeks. We lost some of our employees quit out of anger at having gotten COVID because they were running around.

That office was still running around in the surgical masks at the time.

Yeah.

[Assistant] I've heard some places tried to ban their employees wearing N95 masks.

[User]
They weren't trying to ban them, but they didn't want to share them. They were really being cheap at that point. And at that point all of our N95s really did come from Sherwin-Williams, and we were getting them at like less than $2 apiece. So, I mean, you really didn't have to be cheap about it, but they had the supply of them, but they didn't want to open the supply at that point.

I think they sort of thought that was going to come with a giant banner announcing its arrival, and it infected the entire office before the city even locked down. You know, And at that point, I was in another office dressed like a Martian. But yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think that I mean, what do you wish that these offices had done differently?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
I probably would have forced myself into an N95 earlier but ended up being a moot point for me. But that is so OK. So we had two offices at the time that other office all got copied it ended up shut down for easily six weeks. We lost some of our employees quit out of anger at having gotten COVID because they were running around.

That office was still running around in the surgical masks at the time.

Yeah.

[Assistant] I've heard some places tried to ban their employees wearing N95 masks.

[User]
They weren't trying to ban them, but they didn't want to share them. They were really being cheap at that point. And at that point all of our N95s really did come from Sherwin-Williams, and we were getting them at like less than $2 apiece. So, I mean, you really didn't have to be cheap about it, but they had the supply of them, but they didn't want to open the supply at that point.

I think they sort of thought that was going to come with a giant banner announcing its arrival, and it infected the entire office before the city even locked down. You know, And at that point, I was in another office dressed like a Martian. But yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think that I mean, what do you wish that these offices had done differently?

[User] I wish that other offices have protected themselves, but the doctors were just so stubborn they weren't going to. I mean, so you had two different offices and you had two different offices. Dress differently. One office, all that infected the other office never got infected. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, one. One offices, right? One offices wrong. Right. I mean, even at the time, you can see that. So why do you think the doctors were so stubborn?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
They weren't trying to ban them, but they didn't want to share them. They were really being cheap at that point. And at that point all of our N95s really did come from Sherwin-Williams, and we were getting them at like less than $2 apiece. So, I mean, you really didn't have to be cheap about it, but they had the supply of them, but they didn't want to open the supply at that point.

I think they sort of thought that was going to come with a giant banner announcing its arrival, and it infected the entire office before the city even locked down. You know, And at that point, I was in another office dressed like a Martian. But yeah.

[Assistant] Do you think that I mean, what do you wish that these offices had done differently?

[User] I wish that other offices have protected themselves, but the doctors were just so stubborn they weren't going to. I mean, so you had two different offices and you had two different offices. Dress differently. One office, all that infected the other office never got infected. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, one. One offices, right? One offices wrong. Right. I mean, even at the time, you can see that. So why do you think the doctors were so stubborn?

[User]
It was a combination of things. One, seriously cheap. We're just cheap, cheap people. Two, he really was a Trump supporter had actually flown down to Mar a Lago. While the crisis was brewing. Before the crisis was present in the city.

Yeah, And just very dismissive of the whole thing. And it's going to be fine. China's lying, you know, didn't take it seriously at all.

Didn't take it seriously until he got infected.

And then suddenly. Yeah. But by the time that happened, I mean, it was all over the news that we were running out of hospital beds. They were bringing in the U.S.S Comfort like Yeah.

[Assistant] Did the Comfort ever really get used?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I wish that other offices have protected themselves, but the doctors were just so stubborn they weren't going to. I mean, so you had two different offices and you had two different offices. Dress differently. One office, all that infected the other office never got infected. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, one. One offices, right? One offices wrong. Right. I mean, even at the time, you can see that. So why do you think the doctors were so stubborn?

[User]
It was a combination of things. One, seriously cheap. We're just cheap, cheap people. Two, he really was a Trump supporter had actually flown down to Mar a Lago. While the crisis was brewing. Before the crisis was present in the city.

Yeah, And just very dismissive of the whole thing. And it's going to be fine. China's lying, you know, didn't take it seriously at all.

Didn't take it seriously until he got infected.

And then suddenly. Yeah. But by the time that happened, I mean, it was all over the news that we were running out of hospital beds. They were bringing in the U.S.S Comfort like Yeah.

[Assistant] Did the Comfort ever really get used?

[User] No.

[Assistant] I mean, it is it is a sign, you know, it's like it's a sign that things are not exactly going well. So I imagine that people would see that and start taking it a little seriously.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] No.

[Assistant] I mean, it is it is a sign, you know, it's like it's a sign that things are not exactly going well. So I imagine that people would see that and start taking it a little seriously.

[User] Well, yes. So the Comfort didn't get used. You could almost envision why it didn't get used. They didn’t think they were ever going to be able to clean it.

[Assistant] That that's.

[User]
That was their logic, that they couldn't infect it because they were never going to be able to get a clean. So which is fascinating. But the bigger problem with all those things here was they never use any of the ancillary things they built. They had actually built a spill over at the U.S. Javits Center that was under utilized as well.

They let the 911 system continue to operate under its old rules, which accidentally or deliberately diverted all the patients away from everything that was recently built because these extra facilities were just simply not on the list of places people could bring the patients. So they kept bringing patients to these packed emergency rooms while ancillary facilities sat empty.

Yeah, if you really need the Times archives has all of it, because people eventually people eventually just left these ancillary facilities because medical providers had come to New York and then sat in a parking lot doing nothing during a crisis.

[Assistant]
That makes sense.

OK, so so just a few wrap up questions. Um, so what would you like to tell me about the way you felt in early 2020.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
That was their logic, that they couldn't infect it because they were never going to be able to get a clean. So which is fascinating. But the bigger problem with all those things here was they never use any of the ancillary things they built. They had actually built a spill over at the U.S. Javits Center that was under utilized as well.

They let the 911 system continue to operate under its old rules, which accidentally or deliberately diverted all the patients away from everything that was recently built because these extra facilities were just simply not on the list of places people could bring the patients. So they kept bringing patients to these packed emergency rooms while ancillary facilities sat empty.

Yeah, if you really need the Times archives has all of it, because people eventually people eventually just left these ancillary facilities because medical providers had come to New York and then sat in a parking lot doing nothing during a crisis.

[Assistant]
That makes sense.

OK, so so just a few wrap up questions. Um, so what would you like to tell me about the way you felt in early 2020.

[User]
I probably wasn't worried enough but I was, I certainly wasn't having anxiety about it.

I thought it was going to be unpleasant, but I didn't anticipate what it was. Even at the lockdown to flatten the curve, I thought we could flatten the curve. I didn't think it was going to take us two weeks. I thought it would take us more like six, but I truly believed that we could flatten the curve Yeah, I was still optimistic. I really was.

[Assistant] Me too.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there any question that you think I should have asked that I didn't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there any question that you think I should have asked that I didn't.

[User] Know the No. What is your Master’s in again?

[Assistant] Societal resilience.

[User]
Okay.

I mean, OK, we are much more resilient than I thought we were going to be.

[Assistant] We shrugged off a million deaths.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Know the No. What is your Master’s in again?

[Assistant] Societal resilience.

[User]
Okay.

I mean, OK, we are much more resilient than I thought we were going to be.

[Assistant] We shrugged off a million deaths.

[User]
We really did. Yes. I was very concerned. When we locked down. When we locked down. I really thought New York in particular, was going to have more problems than it did. Well, OK. So the rest of the world, I mean, they lock people in their house and say what you will about domineering governments. They deliver people food. I mean, if if we hadn't given people money, we'd have a problem.

But I mean, you can't just lock people in their houses with no backup plan. So we dump tons of cash on everybody. And then everybody was resilient. But if you looked at the rest of the world, like South America got hit because they couldn't afford to stay home. Yeah.

But we did better than I thought we would do.

Yeah.

But people don't care. That's the problem. Now you have a million deaths, and you'd be amazed how many people like. Well, nobody I know. All right, good for you.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, my first thought is nobody I know. And then I have to think a little bit, and it's like, oh, yeah. Wait.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Okay.

I mean, OK, we are much more resilient than I thought we were going to be.

[Assistant] We shrugged off a million deaths.

[User]
We really did. Yes. I was very concerned. When we locked down. When we locked down. I really thought New York in particular, was going to have more problems than it did. Well, OK. So the rest of the world, I mean, they lock people in their house and say what you will about domineering governments. They deliver people food. I mean, if if we hadn't given people money, we'd have a problem.

But I mean, you can't just lock people in their houses with no backup plan. So we dump tons of cash on everybody. And then everybody was resilient. But if you looked at the rest of the world, like South America got hit because they couldn't afford to stay home. Yeah.

But we did better than I thought we would do.

Yeah.

But people don't care. That's the problem. Now you have a million deaths, and you'd be amazed how many people like. Well, nobody I know. All right, good for you.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, my first thought is nobody I know. And then I have to think a little bit, and it's like, oh, yeah. Wait.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But so it's funny that you bring this up because, you know, like, we have, you know, say we say we're resilient. I mean, we had a summer of riots and not to get too political but we had a summer of riots and a coup attempt. So it’s still better than we expected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
We really did. Yes. I was very concerned. When we locked down. When we locked down. I really thought New York in particular, was going to have more problems than it did. Well, OK. So the rest of the world, I mean, they lock people in their house and say what you will about domineering governments. They deliver people food. I mean, if if we hadn't given people money, we'd have a problem.

But I mean, you can't just lock people in their houses with no backup plan. So we dump tons of cash on everybody. And then everybody was resilient. But if you looked at the rest of the world, like South America got hit because they couldn't afford to stay home. Yeah.

But we did better than I thought we would do.

Yeah.

But people don't care. That's the problem. Now you have a million deaths, and you'd be amazed how many people like. Well, nobody I know. All right, good for you.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, my first thought is nobody I know. And then I have to think a little bit, and it's like, oh, yeah. Wait.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But so it's funny that you bring this up because, you know, like, we have, you know, say we say we're resilient. I mean, we had a summer of riots and not to get too political but we had a summer of riots and a coup attempt. So it’s still better than we expected.

[User]
It is still better than we expected.

I mean, I really thought we'd just break into all out violence in New York. I really did.

[Assistant] I mean, when when were you thinking that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But so it's funny that you bring this up because, you know, like, we have, you know, say we say we're resilient. I mean, we had a summer of riots and not to get too political but we had a summer of riots and a coup attempt. So it’s still better than we expected.

[User]
It is still better than we expected.

I mean, I really thought we'd just break into all out violence in New York. I really did.

[Assistant] I mean, when when were you thinking that?

[User] Oh, no, at that point of initial lockdown.

[Assistant] OK, so much Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
I never anticipated this large scale resistance to vaccination. Suddenly we became people who don't believe in science. We don't believe in math.

We just don't believe in anything anymore. Like, there's some sort of fundamental loss of trust. And I don't know that we're ever going to get that back.

[Assistant] You think this happened because of COVID or was this before COVID?

[User]
No, I had these feelings before COVID. But I think I think you didn't see it. I don't - because I don't think it was as obvious. Like, I'm not in the middle age crowd. There aren't too many vaccines that I'm trying to give people. I mean, there have always been those people that are not going to take the flu shot. I never really question that.

I mean. All right. But this has become so polarizing and fascinating. I mean, on a worldwide level, the whole world's decided they're really going to make an issue of this. It's just I think it pre-dated COVID. I think there's been a whole alternative set of facts that everybody agreed to. But I think that I was blissfully unaware of this.

[Assistant] In the scale or - the scale of this problem was also unexpected, right?

[User] Yeah. I think it pushed people into their corners. And I don't know how we're going to get out of their corners.

[Assistant] That’s why it’s called a crisis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
No, I had these feelings before COVID. But I think I think you didn't see it. I don't - because I don't think it was as obvious. Like, I'm not in the middle age crowd. There aren't too many vaccines that I'm trying to give people. I mean, there have always been those people that are not going to take the flu shot. I never really question that.

I mean. All right. But this has become so polarizing and fascinating. I mean, on a worldwide level, the whole world's decided they're really going to make an issue of this. It's just I think it pre-dated COVID. I think there's been a whole alternative set of facts that everybody agreed to. But I think that I was blissfully unaware of this.

[Assistant] In the scale or - the scale of this problem was also unexpected, right?

[User] Yeah. I think it pushed people into their corners. And I don't know how we're going to get out of their corners.

[Assistant] That’s why it’s called a crisis.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] OK, so yeah, we're getting up there in time. So anything else you'd like to tell me?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah. I think it pushed people into their corners. And I don't know how we're going to get out of their corners.

[Assistant] That’s why it’s called a crisis.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] OK, so yeah, we're getting up there in time. So anything else you'd like to tell me?

[User] No, Good luck with your project.

[Assistant] Thanks. I know you've been - this has been incredibly helpful the way you like. Describe the logic of like why people perceived the things the way they did was really incredibly useful for me. So thank you very much for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yea. Absolutely. So I got a bachelor of Fine Arts in printmaking at Syracuse and I worked at a small.. tiny co-op at the tiny. Syracuse Real Food Co-op. It was like an old house. So at that time I was also becoming a vegetarian and also I remember I like applied to that position the first time and really did not have fully formed thoughts to answer the manager at the time who was interviewing me’s questions. Like what distinguishes work done there versus…

[Assistant] A grocery store or?

[User] A regular grocery store. So that really challenged me to go back and have, just more fully formulated thoughts. And so I worked there and, I worked there for two years and then graduated… did a couple artist residencies around the country, worked at a restaurant slash catering slash marketplace in North Carolina and learned fast paced food service. And then I moved here and started working at Each Peace, for about two and a half years, one and half of which I was the General Manager. And so there I got to really dive in to, being at the point between producer and consumer and you know even on a small scale um being that we are neighborhood serving focused, you know, how could my position there help people make better choices by offering a better selection and kind of just doing research for the customers. Because um you know, how can people make better choices if they don’t have access to that? Just making it easier for people to make better choices. So, you know, um I built several partnerships sourcing fair change bananas and avocados from Equa-Exchange and [pause for ambulance sirens].

[Assistant] Gotta love the city.

[User] Yea, so I did fair trade sourcing, and did research on what our organic grass-fed meat options would be because um up until that point we kind of had pretty um general or kind of murky understandings of our meat supplier and um I just wanted us to take a firmer grassroots stance on that because people can, we, here in Ward 1 people, we aren’t a food desert. Sorry this is a little more elaborate than maybe you’re looking for.

[Assistant] No. No, it’s good background. I’m interested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Um, you know we’re not a food desert so people can go to lots – there’s a Safeway, Giant, a Trader Jones, whatever – to get standard, conventional, you know products so I thought of us as being a way to offer a higher quality and a local, focusing locally. So um, in the end it wasn’t my business and so they were focused more on being a staple small business so uh that just really kind of came to me having, wanting to be in a more dynamic, progressive enivorment and um, also serve people that really need these resources. Um. Where, we we’re at a very affluent place in this area. Yea, and my old co-worker there Janet, Janet Hoffman, had worked at Arcadia and loved it. I read an article about Juju’s work there and just was like super inspired to hear about that work, and then I saw that they were hiring and went for it and um, yea, um Jeremy met with me. It was a great conversation. He hired me and last season it was like, this is the work I want to be doing. There were many vendors, like Tuscorara Organic Co-operative, I worked with them at Each Peach and I work with them at Arcadia. So, um, you know it’s outstanding to continue those partnerships and see them have so much more of an impact, have them reaching a new customer base, and allowing them to do that. Where they don’t have to take on that risk, we’re able to be the aggregator. And. So.

[Assistant] Great. Super interesting as someone coming into this space. It’s interesting to hear people’s lived experience and how they kind of moved through um, yea through careers and through the food world.

[User] Mhm.

[Assistant] But I do want to focus on the incentive programs you work with now. I guess we can kind of start by talking about how it kind of looks at market distributing incentives. So, Arcadia does bonus bucks?

[User] Mhm.

[Assistant] And Produce Plus, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Mhm.

[Assistant] But I do want to focus on the incentive programs you work with now. I guess we can kind of start by talking about how it kind of looks at market distributing incentives. So, Arcadia does bonus bucks?

[User] Mhm.

[Assistant] And Produce Plus, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And are there other incentives or it just those two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Mhm.

[Assistant] And Produce Plus, right?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And are there other incentives or it just those two?

[User] Yea just matching programs.

[Assistant] So how does the exchange, or is it less of an exchange and more of a conversation. Talking about relationships, how does the transactional piece look at market?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Not, not, not for us. So we, you know buy product from producers and then the incentive programs are us paying us back basically. So that’s that relationships.

[Assistant] So there’s a non-existent relationship around..?

[User] Yea its basically non-existence. So, you know, we work with – uh – one of the suppliers we work with is Chocolate and Tomatoes and so for that example I don’t know what their incentive program participation is at their own markets but for us at least that means that they don’t have to take the risk of coming to a new area, where they don’t know how stable their support would be, and we can manage that whole end which is a beast in itself. Of us and the incentive programs.

[Assistant] Okay; and can you, likewise like you did with a customer, can you give me an example or story about a conversation with a partner or Katherine? So on the other end.

[User] Around like…?

[Assistant] I guess so in this case… I am interested in around the incentives specifically but since that doesn’t exist in this case, I guess just any conversation you have had with producers around them. If you don’t have an example that’s okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Exactly, so you have for example, The Woodland Trust, they went in that direction for their recent five million pound head quarters, on a greenfield site in Grantham. They got an architect to design a wonderful building and built on a greenfield site. Around Grantham there are loads of Brownfield sites. But for the developers to restore that site costs a lot of money, so really, that's something that's a huge problem that needs to be addressed. That's where energies should be going before thinking about destroying biodiversity

[Assistant] So higher up mitigation?

[User] So choosing which bits of land very carefully.

[Assistant] The pre-planning application stage?

[User] Yeah

[Assistant] So at the moment, after speaking to a few of the offsetters, they were talking about scaling it up to an actual market, a kind of biodiversity offsetting market or habitat market. I was wondering to what extent do you think the benefits derived from ecosystems or forests can be actually valued economically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] That's fine.

[Assistant] So I think my father told you what this was about. Would you like more of a preamble or should we get into it?

[User] I mean, I just know that it’s about Covid and I guess how we reacted to it.

[Assistant]
Yes. It's about how we reacted and more so why we reacted in the way we did, why it caught us flat footed despite a pretty long waiting period before it actually hit our shores.

So I'm looking so specifically this interview - Oh, there you are.

[User] There we are. Now, of course, I can. I can see you. There we go. It just the picture came up with a little unlock. I could see it finally. OK.

[Assistant]
OK.

Obviously what happened after March has great relevance to to this interview, but this is going to focus on the around the December, January to March period and how we were considering the impending crisis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I mean, I just know that it’s about Covid and I guess how we reacted to it.

[Assistant]
Yes. It's about how we reacted and more so why we reacted in the way we did, why it caught us flat footed despite a pretty long waiting period before it actually hit our shores.

So I'm looking so specifically this interview - Oh, there you are.

[User] There we are. Now, of course, I can. I can see you. There we go. It just the picture came up with a little unlock. I could see it finally. OK.

[Assistant]
OK.

Obviously what happened after March has great relevance to to this interview, but this is going to focus on the around the December, January to March period and how we were considering the impending crisis.

[User] All right. Whether I can remember Timeline one was December one was January and may be a problem for me, but. All right. OK, All right.

[Assistant] So how old are you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] There we are. Now, of course, I can. I can see you. There we go. It just the picture came up with a little unlock. I could see it finally. OK.

[Assistant]
OK.

Obviously what happened after March has great relevance to to this interview, but this is going to focus on the around the December, January to March period and how we were considering the impending crisis.

[User] All right. Whether I can remember Timeline one was December one was January and may be a problem for me, but. All right. OK, All right.

[Assistant] So how old are you?

[User] 66.

[Assistant] And where are you located?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] All right. Whether I can remember Timeline one was December one was January and may be a problem for me, but. All right. OK, All right.

[Assistant] So how old are you?

[User] 66.

[Assistant] And where are you located?

[User] New York. New York. I live in the but I work in the Bronx, New York. OK.

[Assistant] And what's your position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] 66.

[Assistant] And where are you located?

[User] New York. New York. I live in the but I work in the Bronx, New York. OK.

[Assistant] And what's your position?

[User] Physician assistant.

[Assistant] In the clinic in an E.R…?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Physician assistant.

[Assistant] In the clinic in an E.R…?

[User] Clinic.

[Assistant] [clinic]?

[User] That's correct. OK.

[Assistant] And is that where you were working in January? 2020?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Clinic.

[Assistant] [clinic]?

[User] That's correct. OK.

[Assistant] And is that where you were working in January? 2020?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any other jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] That's correct. OK.

[Assistant] And is that where you were working in January? 2020?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any other jobs?

[User] None.

[Assistant] So can you tell me about when you first heard about COVID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you have any other jobs?

[User] None.

[Assistant] So can you tell me about when you first heard about COVID?

[User] I guess you know that it was taking place in China the virus was in China. It was, I guess, spreading. That was my first information that I can remember.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about what you thought at first?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] None.

[Assistant] So can you tell me about when you first heard about COVID?

[User] I guess you know that it was taking place in China the virus was in China. It was, I guess, spreading. That was my first information that I can remember.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about what you thought at first?

[User]
You know, I probably thought I was hopeful it would never get here. Or be like some of the other viruses that would be limited and that spread to the United States.

I was I'm sure I was cavalier.

[Assistant]
You weren't the only one.

So do you remember why you thought that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I guess you know that it was taking place in China the virus was in China. It was, I guess, spreading. That was my first information that I can remember.

[Assistant] Can you tell me about what you thought at first?

[User]
You know, I probably thought I was hopeful it would never get here. Or be like some of the other viruses that would be limited and that spread to the United States.

I was I'm sure I was cavalier.

[Assistant]
You weren't the only one.

So do you remember why you thought that.

[User]
You know, I think it maybe because some of the other virus like Zika, you know, hadn't really spread to the United States.

And I think, you know, psychologically, I think there's also a component of not of of not really wanting to say something so negative. I mean, it's a combination, you know, to pick out the things and pass histories that didn't affect us. That was somewhat similar for us. You know, a general bias not to want to say something that's negative.

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
You know, I probably thought I was hopeful it would never get here. Or be like some of the other viruses that would be limited and that spread to the United States.

I was I'm sure I was cavalier.

[Assistant]
You weren't the only one.

So do you remember why you thought that.

[User]
You know, I think it maybe because some of the other virus like Zika, you know, hadn't really spread to the United States.

And I think, you know, psychologically, I think there's also a component of not of of not really wanting to say something so negative. I mean, it's a combination, you know, to pick out the things and pass histories that didn't affect us. That was somewhat similar for us. You know, a general bias not to want to say something that's negative.

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
You know, I think it maybe because some of the other virus like Zika, you know, hadn't really spread to the United States.

And I think, you know, psychologically, I think there's also a component of not of of not really wanting to say something so negative. I mean, it's a combination, you know, to pick out the things and pass histories that didn't affect us. That was somewhat similar for us. You know, a general bias not to want to say something that's negative.

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?

[User] Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. I mean, not all, but I think the ones especially things that are more unknown and that you haven't faced, I think probably, you know, I have a bias to be to be little, you know, not not reactive and not not sensitive to the real risks.

[Assistant] So is this something you saw before COVID?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] Have you seen that with other diseases?

[User] Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. I mean, not all, but I think the ones especially things that are more unknown and that you haven't faced, I think probably, you know, I have a bias to be to be little, you know, not not reactive and not not sensitive to the real risks.

[Assistant] So is this something you saw before COVID?

[User]
Is iy something that I saw… Yeah. I mean, there's probably other other things that like SARS virus, you know, that I just didn't think would get here or wouldn't be serious. I mean, there are other viruses that weren't so, you know, there's some basis in it, but there was no reason to believe some of the other viruses would have spread here either.

Probably We just got lucky.

[Assistant] And with COVID, did you see this among your colleagues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, I think there's some truth to that. I mean, not all, but I think the ones especially things that are more unknown and that you haven't faced, I think probably, you know, I have a bias to be to be little, you know, not not reactive and not not sensitive to the real risks.

[Assistant] So is this something you saw before COVID?

[User]
Is iy something that I saw… Yeah. I mean, there's probably other other things that like SARS virus, you know, that I just didn't think would get here or wouldn't be serious. I mean, there are other viruses that weren't so, you know, there's some basis in it, but there was no reason to believe some of the other viruses would have spread here either.

Probably We just got lucky.

[Assistant] And with COVID, did you see this among your colleagues?

[User]
Oh, oh, I can't remember, to tell you the truth. You know, what was at what point? You know, people people began to take it more seriously.

You know, in the timeline.

[Assistant] You know, the timeline can be hazy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Is iy something that I saw… Yeah. I mean, there's probably other other things that like SARS virus, you know, that I just didn't think would get here or wouldn't be serious. I mean, there are other viruses that weren't so, you know, there's some basis in it, but there was no reason to believe some of the other viruses would have spread here either.

Probably We just got lucky.

[Assistant] And with COVID, did you see this among your colleagues?

[User]
Oh, oh, I can't remember, to tell you the truth. You know, what was at what point? You know, people people began to take it more seriously.

You know, in the timeline.

[Assistant] You know, the timeline can be hazy.

[User] So it's all hazy. I mean, for me, it's completely hazy.

[Assistant] but people started to take it more seriously?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User]
Oh, oh, I can't remember, to tell you the truth. You know, what was at what point? You know, people people began to take it more seriously.

You know, in the timeline.

[Assistant] You know, the timeline can be hazy.

[User] So it's all hazy. I mean, for me, it's completely hazy.

[Assistant] but people started to take it more seriously?

[User] At some point. Yeah. It was like, though, you know, I took it seriously when everyone took it seriously and then took it very seriously, but probably later than I should have.

[Assistant] Why later than you should? Why do you say later than you should have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] So it's all hazy. I mean, for me, it's completely hazy.

[Assistant] but people started to take it more seriously?

[User] At some point. Yeah. It was like, though, you know, I took it seriously when everyone took it seriously and then took it very seriously, but probably later than I should have.

[Assistant] Why later than you should? Why do you say later than you should have?

[User] Because it was serious earlier and there was reasons You know, I mean, looking backwards, it's much easier to see like you should take it seriously at the very beginning, because things panned out.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment when you realized how bad it would be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] At some point. Yeah. It was like, though, you know, I took it seriously when everyone took it seriously and then took it very seriously, but probably later than I should have.

[Assistant] Why later than you should? Why do you say later than you should have?

[User] Because it was serious earlier and there was reasons You know, I mean, looking backwards, it's much easier to see like you should take it seriously at the very beginning, because things panned out.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment when you realized how bad it would be?

[User]
Oh, you know, I guess it's you know, it's hazy. I mean, I know there was at some point I realized, you know, this is going to be a big problem. I had a child like you who is overseas. You know, I decided she had to come home. But that, you know, all that was later. You know, there was stuff that was done to the clinic, you know, a head of the institution, you know, which wasn't prepared to deal with, which we dealt with.

I mean, we were sort of ahead of the institutional changes, but we were so late I can't remember. I can't help you with the timeline. I'm sorry. You know, when it was.

[Assistant] It’s OK, I don't I don't need so much of a timeline. I'm more interested in the psychological mechanisms.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Because it was serious earlier and there was reasons You know, I mean, looking backwards, it's much easier to see like you should take it seriously at the very beginning, because things panned out.

[Assistant] Did you have a eureka moment when you realized how bad it would be?

[User]
Oh, you know, I guess it's you know, it's hazy. I mean, I know there was at some point I realized, you know, this is going to be a big problem. I had a child like you who is overseas. You know, I decided she had to come home. But that, you know, all that was later. You know, there was stuff that was done to the clinic, you know, a head of the institution, you know, which wasn't prepared to deal with, which we dealt with.

I mean, we were sort of ahead of the institutional changes, but we were so late I can't remember. I can't help you with the timeline. I'm sorry. You know, when it was.

[Assistant] It’s OK, I don't I don't need so much of a timeline. I'm more interested in the psychological mechanisms.

[User]
Yeah. And I can't remember what it was that other than, you know, it was actually spreading, you know, but that that was probably, you know, you know, when people were starting to get sick and starting to die, you know, it was just… I mean, I flew. I remember I think, you know, in January or February, you know, when I probably should know, you know, when people knew already.

I mean, like, the person next to me, you know, was wiping the seat down with alcohol, you know, had a mask on or whatever.

[Assistant] Where'd you go?