[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I really didn’t, because I didn’t know the two girls that were already up here well. I just knew that they were working for NACA. I just thought it would be something different. I thought, well, this sounds like fun.

[Assistant] What did your family think about it?

[User] They let me do it. I don’t think they were too happy about it. I think they were a little uneasy about it, but they said, “Fine.” Of course, they did expect me to come back home, and I really didn’t, except for visits.

[Assistant] Talk about those first days when you first got here.

[User] I can’t remember exactly at first, except I do know that, on the first day we moved into this apartment, and I assume it was the first day I was here, but I don’t know; South Hampton was just kind of like a college campus at that time. It was so filled with young people—young, single people. There were some married people there, but a lot of them were just young people coming in. I met quite a few people. One fellow came over on the pretense of borrowing a card table. He lived across the street. He knew where I was going to work. I was assigned to work at 19-Foot [Pressure] Tunnel. That was just next door to where he worked, so he offered to give me a ride to work. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know how I would have gotten to work. Anyway, he did offer. He said they had one place in their carpool, so I rode with him. Two years later, I married him.

[Assistant] Did you have to contribute for these carpools, since you didn’t have a car?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They let me do it. I don’t think they were too happy about it. I think they were a little uneasy about it, but they said, “Fine.” Of course, they did expect me to come back home, and I really didn’t, except for visits.

[Assistant] Talk about those first days when you first got here.

[User] I can’t remember exactly at first, except I do know that, on the first day we moved into this apartment, and I assume it was the first day I was here, but I don’t know; South Hampton was just kind of like a college campus at that time. It was so filled with young people—young, single people. There were some married people there, but a lot of them were just young people coming in. I met quite a few people. One fellow came over on the pretense of borrowing a card table. He lived across the street. He knew where I was going to work. I was assigned to work at 19-Foot [Pressure] Tunnel. That was just next door to where he worked, so he offered to give me a ride to work. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know how I would have gotten to work. Anyway, he did offer. He said they had one place in their carpool, so I rode with him. Two years later, I married him.

[Assistant] Did you have to contribute for these carpools, since you didn’t have a car?

[User] Yes, I paid so much a week. The guys would take turns driving. I have forgotten what I paid but something for gasoline. I think there were five of us. We worked on the East side. Most people were on the West side, but we were on the East—the Air Force side. That’s where I worked the whole time.

[Assistant] You were in that 19-Foot Tunnel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember exactly at first, except I do know that, on the first day we moved into this apartment, and I assume it was the first day I was here, but I don’t know; South Hampton was just kind of like a college campus at that time. It was so filled with young people—young, single people. There were some married people there, but a lot of them were just young people coming in. I met quite a few people. One fellow came over on the pretense of borrowing a card table. He lived across the street. He knew where I was going to work. I was assigned to work at 19-Foot [Pressure] Tunnel. That was just next door to where he worked, so he offered to give me a ride to work. If that hadn’t happened, I don’t know how I would have gotten to work. Anyway, he did offer. He said they had one place in their carpool, so I rode with him. Two years later, I married him.

[Assistant] Did you have to contribute for these carpools, since you didn’t have a car?

[User] Yes, I paid so much a week. The guys would take turns driving. I have forgotten what I paid but something for gasoline. I think there were five of us. We worked on the East side. Most people were on the West side, but we were on the East—the Air Force side. That’s where I worked the whole time.

[Assistant] You were in that 19-Foot Tunnel?

[User] The 19-Foot Tunnel.

[Assistant] Were you considered a mathematician or a computer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I paid so much a week. The guys would take turns driving. I have forgotten what I paid but something for gasoline. I think there were five of us. We worked on the East side. Most people were on the West side, but we were on the East—the Air Force side. That’s where I worked the whole time.

[Assistant] You were in that 19-Foot Tunnel?

[User] The 19-Foot Tunnel.

[Assistant] Were you considered a mathematician or a computer?

[User] I came up on a temporary assignment. When they came down recruiting, we were recruited as a temporary assignment, so I didn’t have to take the civil service exam or anything like that. I was actually on Social Security for a little while. I was not considered a mathematician. I wasn’t called a mathematician. When I got my civil service rating or whatever, I was considered a mathematician.

[Assistant] So, when you first came in, were you a computer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The 19-Foot Tunnel.

[Assistant] Were you considered a mathematician or a computer?

[User] I came up on a temporary assignment. When they came down recruiting, we were recruited as a temporary assignment, so I didn’t have to take the civil service exam or anything like that. I was actually on Social Security for a little while. I was not considered a mathematician. I wasn’t called a mathematician. When I got my civil service rating or whatever, I was considered a mathematician.

[Assistant] So, when you first came in, were you a computer?

[User] I guess I was a computer, and I continued to be a computer for a good while. I got a raise along with the title of mathematician rather than whatever it was at first. I guess it was a computer.

[Assistant] The 19-Foot Tunnel—was that like a pool of computers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A number of them went there. Of course, the computers split up, too. I was offered a job being a head computer somewhere, but I was married then and was pregnant, so decided I would just stop work. I stayed in touch with NASA, because my husband worked there for 46 years.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of women that were getting married at that time and having their children?

[User] Yes, I guess I had three or four different roommates. As one would get married, somebody else would move in. The apartments were at a premium. The only way that I got an apartment when my friend came back from her stay in Washington State, one of the engineers had built a house; he put a good word in for us, and we were able to get an apartment. So, as people got married, you would have different roommates. They were just young girls out of college.

[Assistant] Do you remember anything specific about any of the projects you worked on? I know you said that, once you became a mathematician, at least—maybe after that?

[User] I really don’t. I tried. When I read this, I tried to think, and I really don’t remember what I worked on.

[Assistant] We were wondering if they even told you, at that time, what you were working on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I guess I had three or four different roommates. As one would get married, somebody else would move in. The apartments were at a premium. The only way that I got an apartment when my friend came back from her stay in Washington State, one of the engineers had built a house; he put a good word in for us, and we were able to get an apartment. So, as people got married, you would have different roommates. They were just young girls out of college.

[Assistant] Do you remember anything specific about any of the projects you worked on? I know you said that, once you became a mathematician, at least—maybe after that?

[User] I really don’t. I tried. When I read this, I tried to think, and I really don’t remember what I worked on.

[Assistant] We were wondering if they even told you, at that time, what you were working on.

[User] I think they did, sort of. I don’t know that we knew what they found with the data. We had different numbers down, but I don’t think we really had any concept of what it was. I think they were just numbers. I do remember certain equations for certain things. I remember them telling you that, but we really had very little knowledge of what was going on. I think we were told sometimes what plane we were working on.\n\n Sometimes, on really hot days, we would go down to the tunnel, because maybe it was air-conditioned. Maybe, it was just cooler, but that was the only time we ever really saw the tunnel working.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that your boss was so hard on you, as opposed to the engineers. Did you find that generally? Did other people that you talked to experience the same type of treatment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think some of them did. They had noticed it. For some reason, my boss was very strict. He worked his engineers hard, too, I’m sure, but he was very strict. I would talk to my roommates about it. We had a thirty-minute break for lunch. We weren’t supposed to come back thirty-one minutes after or thirty-two minutes after. He was very, very strict about that. As I say, we really didn’t have much break time. I remember we had a meeting, and he said, “If you want to go down and get a Coke, you can do that, but I expect you to bring it back up and continue your work.”\n\n We didn’t see that with the engineers at all. They would go around and sit on each other’s tables and talk and visit. Of course, I guess, they were doing brain work that we didn’t know about. I don’t know, but everybody in the office kind of complained about it. It wasn’t the best office to work in, I would say, for a girl.

[Assistant] Other than being hot, were there separate restroom facilities? Was it planned that females would be working in those buildings?

[User] We had a restroom with salt tablets right on the outside. When it was so hot and you were perspiring, you were supposed to eat a salt tablet with your water. I guess that’s the worst thing you could do, really, but that’s what they told us to do. I remember doing that.

[Assistant] To keep you from dehydrating.

[User] I guess, so you would drink water.

[Assistant] They were metal buildings, weren’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a restroom with salt tablets right on the outside. When it was so hot and you were perspiring, you were supposed to eat a salt tablet with your water. I guess that’s the worst thing you could do, really, but that’s what they told us to do. I remember doing that.

[Assistant] To keep you from dehydrating.

[User] I guess, so you would drink water.

[Assistant] They were metal buildings, weren’t they?

[User] Brick and metal. We’d be right by the windows, with the sun shining in.

[Assistant] What about dress code?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess, so you would drink water.

[Assistant] They were metal buildings, weren’t they?

[User] Brick and metal. We’d be right by the windows, with the sun shining in.

[Assistant] What about dress code?

[User] We all wore dresses. Nobody wore slacks. I think, in some places, if there were tunnel girls there, they wore slacks, but we all wore dresses. So, we would let that fan just blow right on our legs. That’s just one of the few things that I remember—just being so hot. Your hands would be wet, and you had to write the data down. It would be so hot. I make it sound terrible, and it really wasn’t. We had fun, too, but we did work. It wasn’t the most challenging work you could do, but it was work.

[Assistant] You said you had fun, too. I’m sure, with everyone being so young at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Brick and metal. We’d be right by the windows, with the sun shining in.

[Assistant] What about dress code?

[User] We all wore dresses. Nobody wore slacks. I think, in some places, if there were tunnel girls there, they wore slacks, but we all wore dresses. So, we would let that fan just blow right on our legs. That’s just one of the few things that I remember—just being so hot. Your hands would be wet, and you had to write the data down. It would be so hot. I make it sound terrible, and it really wasn’t. We had fun, too, but we did work. It wasn’t the most challenging work you could do, but it was work.

[Assistant] You said you had fun, too. I’m sure, with everyone being so young at that time.

[User] We had lots of things in the Activities Building. We had dances quite frequently and oyster roasts and things like this. It was just very similar to a college campus, really, and everybody seemed to know people from other tunnels. There was a good bit of social interacting on and off Langley. We had a nice time. We got to know each other, the people who lived in the apartments, and this sort of thing.

[Assistant] What about the community itself in Hampton and that area as far as the people that were here and had been here for generations and then this influx? I know that a lot of times they called them the ‘NACA-nuts.’


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We all wore dresses. Nobody wore slacks. I think, in some places, if there were tunnel girls there, they wore slacks, but we all wore dresses. So, we would let that fan just blow right on our legs. That’s just one of the few things that I remember—just being so hot. Your hands would be wet, and you had to write the data down. It would be so hot. I make it sound terrible, and it really wasn’t. We had fun, too, but we did work. It wasn’t the most challenging work you could do, but it was work.

[Assistant] You said you had fun, too. I’m sure, with everyone being so young at that time.

[User] We had lots of things in the Activities Building. We had dances quite frequently and oyster roasts and things like this. It was just very similar to a college campus, really, and everybody seemed to know people from other tunnels. There was a good bit of social interacting on and off Langley. We had a nice time. We got to know each other, the people who lived in the apartments, and this sort of thing.

[Assistant] What about the community itself in Hampton and that area as far as the people that were here and had been here for generations and then this influx? I know that a lot of times they called them the ‘NACA-nuts.’

[User] I didn’t have a lot of interaction with the community. I did go to the Methodist Church in Hampton. I guess for shopping we would go to Newport News. Most of the workers were in just three little groups of apartments there, right on Kecoughtan Road, because there were no other apartments available. Now, when my husband came, he stayed in a boardinghouse, way up in the attic, so I know that was hot. But, it was on the water. It was on Chesapeake Boulevard. They had to stay there until they could get an apartment. You just didn’t have too many choices back then as to where you could live.

[Assistant] When did your husband come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had lots of things in the Activities Building. We had dances quite frequently and oyster roasts and things like this. It was just very similar to a college campus, really, and everybody seemed to know people from other tunnels. There was a good bit of social interacting on and off Langley. We had a nice time. We got to know each other, the people who lived in the apartments, and this sort of thing.

[Assistant] What about the community itself in Hampton and that area as far as the people that were here and had been here for generations and then this influx? I know that a lot of times they called them the ‘NACA-nuts.’

[User] I didn’t have a lot of interaction with the community. I did go to the Methodist Church in Hampton. I guess for shopping we would go to Newport News. Most of the workers were in just three little groups of apartments there, right on Kecoughtan Road, because there were no other apartments available. Now, when my husband came, he stayed in a boardinghouse, way up in the attic, so I know that was hot. But, it was on the water. It was on Chesapeake Boulevard. They had to stay there until they could get an apartment. You just didn’t have too many choices back then as to where you could live.

[Assistant] When did your husband come?

[User] He came in ’44. He came seven years before I did.

[Assistant] Did he have a deferment from the military? I think they allowed them to join the military, but then they assigned them here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t have a lot of interaction with the community. I did go to the Methodist Church in Hampton. I guess for shopping we would go to Newport News. Most of the workers were in just three little groups of apartments there, right on Kecoughtan Road, because there were no other apartments available. Now, when my husband came, he stayed in a boardinghouse, way up in the attic, so I know that was hot. But, it was on the water. It was on Chesapeake Boulevard. They had to stay there until they could get an apartment. You just didn’t have too many choices back then as to where you could live.

[Assistant] When did your husband come?

[User] He came in ’44. He came seven years before I did.

[Assistant] Did he have a deferment from the military? I think they allowed them to join the military, but then they assigned them here.

[User] He had a deferment, and then, right after he got here, he was called. I guess they went to Richmond [Virginia], and most of them came back to NACA, but a few of them were sent on to Maryland. He was one of the few that were sent to Maryland. He went through the haircut and all of the shots and all of this, that, and the other, and didn’t know what in the world had happened, because he had been promised a deferment if he came up here to work.\n\n Anyway, he had active duty for three days, and then they called him out and told him that he was in the reserves and had been sent to NACA. We didn’t even know until just recently that he stayed in the reserve for three years until after the war, and then he got an honorable discharge. He never considered himself a veteran, but I guess something happened that some of them didn’t get deferred right away. He did come back to his old job.

[Assistant] What did he do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He came in ’44. He came seven years before I did.

[Assistant] Did he have a deferment from the military? I think they allowed them to join the military, but then they assigned them here.

[User] He had a deferment, and then, right after he got here, he was called. I guess they went to Richmond [Virginia], and most of them came back to NACA, but a few of them were sent on to Maryland. He was one of the few that were sent to Maryland. He went through the haircut and all of the shots and all of this, that, and the other, and didn’t know what in the world had happened, because he had been promised a deferment if he came up here to work.\n\n Anyway, he had active duty for three days, and then they called him out and told him that he was in the reserves and had been sent to NACA. We didn’t even know until just recently that he stayed in the reserve for three years until after the war, and then he got an honorable discharge. He never considered himself a veteran, but I guess something happened that some of them didn’t get deferred right away. He did come back to his old job.

[Assistant] What did he do?

[User] He was an aeronautical engineer in the Full-Scale Tunnel. He stayed in the same place for 46 years.

[Assistant] That’s a long career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He had a deferment, and then, right after he got here, he was called. I guess they went to Richmond [Virginia], and most of them came back to NACA, but a few of them were sent on to Maryland. He was one of the few that were sent to Maryland. He went through the haircut and all of the shots and all of this, that, and the other, and didn’t know what in the world had happened, because he had been promised a deferment if he came up here to work.\n\n Anyway, he had active duty for three days, and then they called him out and told him that he was in the reserves and had been sent to NACA. We didn’t even know until just recently that he stayed in the reserve for three years until after the war, and then he got an honorable discharge. He never considered himself a veteran, but I guess something happened that some of them didn’t get deferred right away. He did come back to his old job.

[Assistant] What did he do?

[User] He was an aeronautical engineer in the Full-Scale Tunnel. He stayed in the same place for 46 years.

[Assistant] That’s a long career.

[User] That was a long time.

[Assistant] How did you meet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was an aeronautical engineer in the Full-Scale Tunnel. He stayed in the same place for 46 years.

[Assistant] That’s a long career.

[User] That was a long time.

[Assistant] How did you meet?

[User] We met just when he—

[Assistant] That’s right. He was the one who was going to give you a ride.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a long time.

[Assistant] How did you meet?

[User] We met just when he—

[Assistant] That’s right. He was the one who was going to give you a ride.

[User] To borrow the card table. Then, I rode in his carpool.

[Assistant] That’s a good way to meet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We met just when he—

[Assistant] That’s right. He was the one who was going to give you a ride.

[User] To borrow the card table. Then, I rode in his carpool.

[Assistant] That’s a good way to meet.

[User] Somebody asked me later, “Did you date anybody else?” I did. I dated other people, and he dated other people. We dated for quite a while. I was a person who was going to work and didn’t want to get married at all. I had no desire to get married any time soon. Then, I got married almost two years to the day after I came up.

[Assistant] Some of the other ladies we’ve talked to kind of have similar stories; the math major, and they thought they would end up teaching, and then they were here, and they would meet their husbands.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To borrow the card table. Then, I rode in his carpool.

[Assistant] That’s a good way to meet.

[User] Somebody asked me later, “Did you date anybody else?” I did. I dated other people, and he dated other people. We dated for quite a while. I was a person who was going to work and didn’t want to get married at all. I had no desire to get married any time soon. Then, I got married almost two years to the day after I came up.

[Assistant] Some of the other ladies we’ve talked to kind of have similar stories; the math major, and they thought they would end up teaching, and then they were here, and they would meet their husbands.

[User] Teaching was about all you did back then. If you majored in anything, you probably ended up being a teacher, or secretary, or nurse, or something. I always wanted to teach, so I did teach later on, after my kids went to college. That’s just about all I did. I can’t think of anything outstanding that I did at all.

[Assistant] When we talk to a lot of women that worked during that time period, they say the same thing, but just having a college degree and working in a technical field during that time period—that was special.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somebody asked me later, “Did you date anybody else?” I did. I dated other people, and he dated other people. We dated for quite a while. I was a person who was going to work and didn’t want to get married at all. I had no desire to get married any time soon. Then, I got married almost two years to the day after I came up.

[Assistant] Some of the other ladies we’ve talked to kind of have similar stories; the math major, and they thought they would end up teaching, and then they were here, and they would meet their husbands.

[User] Teaching was about all you did back then. If you majored in anything, you probably ended up being a teacher, or secretary, or nurse, or something. I always wanted to teach, so I did teach later on, after my kids went to college. That’s just about all I did. I can’t think of anything outstanding that I did at all.

[Assistant] When we talk to a lot of women that worked during that time period, they say the same thing, but just having a college degree and working in a technical field during that time period—that was special.

[User] Well, I guess so. I assume so. As I told you, they had said that they wanted just high school graduates, because that was the type of work that they did. I was so surprised to come into an office and they resented your being there right at first. I had been four years at an all-girls’ college, so I thought I knew all about girls. I realized that you did have little cliques. I was so surprised, but, that worked out in a short time, and there was no problem at all. It was just that they let certain people do certain things. Some of the girls were not happy that they didn’t have replacements.

[Assistant] I know that engineers were in that 19-Foot Tunnel. Were there any men that were doing mathematical work or computer work at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Teaching was about all you did back then. If you majored in anything, you probably ended up being a teacher, or secretary, or nurse, or something. I always wanted to teach, so I did teach later on, after my kids went to college. That’s just about all I did. I can’t think of anything outstanding that I did at all.

[Assistant] When we talk to a lot of women that worked during that time period, they say the same thing, but just having a college degree and working in a technical field during that time period—that was special.

[User] Well, I guess so. I assume so. As I told you, they had said that they wanted just high school graduates, because that was the type of work that they did. I was so surprised to come into an office and they resented your being there right at first. I had been four years at an all-girls’ college, so I thought I knew all about girls. I realized that you did have little cliques. I was so surprised, but, that worked out in a short time, and there was no problem at all. It was just that they let certain people do certain things. Some of the girls were not happy that they didn’t have replacements.

[Assistant] I know that engineers were in that 19-Foot Tunnel. Were there any men that were doing mathematical work or computer work at all?

[User] No. They were all girls. Some of them had been there for quite a while.

[Assistant] You quit working in ’56, but your husband was still working. You said he stayed in that Full-Scale Tunnel the whole time. Did he ever think about possibly going into the space side of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess so. I assume so. As I told you, they had said that they wanted just high school graduates, because that was the type of work that they did. I was so surprised to come into an office and they resented your being there right at first. I had been four years at an all-girls’ college, so I thought I knew all about girls. I realized that you did have little cliques. I was so surprised, but, that worked out in a short time, and there was no problem at all. It was just that they let certain people do certain things. Some of the girls were not happy that they didn’t have replacements.

[Assistant] I know that engineers were in that 19-Foot Tunnel. Were there any men that were doing mathematical work or computer work at all?

[User] No. They were all girls. Some of them had been there for quite a while.

[Assistant] You quit working in ’56, but your husband was still working. You said he stayed in that Full-Scale Tunnel the whole time. Did he ever think about possibly going into the space side of it?

[User] No. He was asked to, at that time. He really didn’t want to. He was interested in the low-speed aerodynamics. We discussed it. We had several very good friends who moved, but he didn’t want to move to Houston, and he didn’t want to go to space. He became branch head of that tunnel. They have just recently torn that down. It was one of the oldest tunnels there.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the projects or things that he worked on that were high-profile?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They were all girls. Some of them had been there for quite a while.

[Assistant] You quit working in ’56, but your husband was still working. You said he stayed in that Full-Scale Tunnel the whole time. Did he ever think about possibly going into the space side of it?

[User] No. He was asked to, at that time. He really didn’t want to. He was interested in the low-speed aerodynamics. We discussed it. We had several very good friends who moved, but he didn’t want to move to Houston, and he didn’t want to go to space. He became branch head of that tunnel. They have just recently torn that down. It was one of the oldest tunnels there.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the projects or things that he worked on that were high-profile?

[User] I don’t remember a whole lot, but I remember he worked on the supersonic transport a lot, which didn’t get off the ground. He was going to and from Seattle [Washington]. He worked on vertical take-off planes. I don’t remember. I really don’t, but he loved his airplanes. He really enjoyed it. He loved NASA, because he was given the opportunity to do research on almost anything he wanted to do, and that was just so great for him.

[Assistant] He found that all throughout his 46 years? He continued to feel that way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. He was asked to, at that time. He really didn’t want to. He was interested in the low-speed aerodynamics. We discussed it. We had several very good friends who moved, but he didn’t want to move to Houston, and he didn’t want to go to space. He became branch head of that tunnel. They have just recently torn that down. It was one of the oldest tunnels there.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the projects or things that he worked on that were high-profile?

[User] I don’t remember a whole lot, but I remember he worked on the supersonic transport a lot, which didn’t get off the ground. He was going to and from Seattle [Washington]. He worked on vertical take-off planes. I don’t remember. I really don’t, but he loved his airplanes. He really enjoyed it. He loved NASA, because he was given the opportunity to do research on almost anything he wanted to do, and that was just so great for him.

[Assistant] He found that all throughout his 46 years? He continued to feel that way?

[User] Yes. He just thought that there was no place you could go and have an idea and try to develop it and see what would take place. He just loved it. We always said that he had worked at such a wonderful time; he told me that, before I got here, Orville Wright came here. He shook hands with him, and somebody took his picture, but they didn’t have film in it. Anyway, he shook hands with Orville Wright, and he was there when they put the man on the Moon. What a wonderful period of time to be in aeronautics.

[Assistant] The early astronauts were training here, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He just thought that there was no place you could go and have an idea and try to develop it and see what would take place. He just loved it. We always said that he had worked at such a wonderful time; he told me that, before I got here, Orville Wright came here. He shook hands with him, and somebody took his picture, but they didn’t have film in it. Anyway, he shook hands with Orville Wright, and he was there when they put the man on the Moon. What a wonderful period of time to be in aeronautics.

[Assistant] The early astronauts were training here, too.

[User] Yes. Our really good friend was the one that did the lunar landing structure that they had here.

[Assistant] The simulator?

[User] Yes. We did have some space going on here, but when they got ready to move, he really wanted to stay here.

[Assistant] It sounds like he had a long career here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Our really good friend was the one that did the lunar landing structure that they had here.

[Assistant] The simulator?

[User] Yes. We did have some space going on here, but when they got ready to move, he really wanted to stay here.

[Assistant] It sounds like he had a long career here.

[User] He sure did.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have anything that you want to ask?

I want to ask you about training. Did they give you any type of training on the Friden machine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We did have some space going on here, but when they got ready to move, he really wanted to stay here.

[Assistant] It sounds like he had a long career here.

[User] He sure did.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have anything that you want to ask?

I want to ask you about training. Did they give you any type of training on the Friden machine?

[User] Those Friden machines? I guess they did. Well, they would have to, because I had never seen one before. I would say that my head computer did that. I don’t remember, but I do remember struggling with it some. People were working so fast, and I would be punching along. I remember that. I assume that it was just in-office training. I did not go to any classes. I remember just going into that office, and that was where I was assigned. I didn’t have any training before I went into that office.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the different groups. You were with the computers and mathematicians. We know there were secretaries or administrative support. People have mentioned the tunnel girls. What did they do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He sure did.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have anything that you want to ask?

I want to ask you about training. Did they give you any type of training on the Friden machine?

[User] Those Friden machines? I guess they did. Well, they would have to, because I had never seen one before. I would say that my head computer did that. I don’t remember, but I do remember struggling with it some. People were working so fast, and I would be punching along. I remember that. I assume that it was just in-office training. I did not go to any classes. I remember just going into that office, and that was where I was assigned. I didn’t have any training before I went into that office.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the different groups. You were with the computers and mathematicians. We know there were secretaries or administrative support. People have mentioned the tunnel girls. What did they do?

[User] They assisted the engineers. I don’t think we had any tunnel girls in our office, but I know that my husband, Joe [Joseph L. Johnson, Jr.], did. Of course, his tunnel was big. It was the Full-Scale. I remember they would be climbing up and putting models in and out, I guess, helped to run it. The engineers usually had the controls. I don’t know, but they did have tunnel girls. In fact, he had several. One of the tunnel girls ended up getting rated as an engineer. She was considered one of the engineers later.

[Assistant] I know that Langley [Research Center] for a while in different areas had different types of programs. Was there anything else that you were interested in doing while you were there? Did you plan to work for a while? I know you said something about going back to Mississippi, but those plans changed. I wondered if you had wanted to do something else. Did you have a desire to be an engineer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Those Friden machines? I guess they did. Well, they would have to, because I had never seen one before. I would say that my head computer did that. I don’t remember, but I do remember struggling with it some. People were working so fast, and I would be punching along. I remember that. I assume that it was just in-office training. I did not go to any classes. I remember just going into that office, and that was where I was assigned. I didn’t have any training before I went into that office.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the different groups. You were with the computers and mathematicians. We know there were secretaries or administrative support. People have mentioned the tunnel girls. What did they do?

[User] They assisted the engineers. I don’t think we had any tunnel girls in our office, but I know that my husband, Joe [Joseph L. Johnson, Jr.], did. Of course, his tunnel was big. It was the Full-Scale. I remember they would be climbing up and putting models in and out, I guess, helped to run it. The engineers usually had the controls. I don’t know, but they did have tunnel girls. In fact, he had several. One of the tunnel girls ended up getting rated as an engineer. She was considered one of the engineers later.

[Assistant] I know that Langley [Research Center] for a while in different areas had different types of programs. Was there anything else that you were interested in doing while you were there? Did you plan to work for a while? I know you said something about going back to Mississippi, but those plans changed. I wondered if you had wanted to do something else. Did you have a desire to be an engineer?

[User] No. I guess because we started having a family, and I quit then and just didn’t go back.

[Assistant] Did you only stay in this area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They assisted the engineers. I don’t think we had any tunnel girls in our office, but I know that my husband, Joe [Joseph L. Johnson, Jr.], did. Of course, his tunnel was big. It was the Full-Scale. I remember they would be climbing up and putting models in and out, I guess, helped to run it. The engineers usually had the controls. I don’t know, but they did have tunnel girls. In fact, he had several. One of the tunnel girls ended up getting rated as an engineer. She was considered one of the engineers later.

[Assistant] I know that Langley [Research Center] for a while in different areas had different types of programs. Was there anything else that you were interested in doing while you were there? Did you plan to work for a while? I know you said something about going back to Mississippi, but those plans changed. I wondered if you had wanted to do something else. Did you have a desire to be an engineer?

[User] No. I guess because we started having a family, and I quit then and just didn’t go back.

[Assistant] Did you only stay in this area?

[User] Yes. Probably a year or so after we married, we moved here, just one street over. We have been here ever since. After about nine years, we moved to this house. So, we’ve been within the block of where we were practically the whole 60 years we were married.

[Assistant] Lots of people at Langley chose this community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I guess because we started having a family, and I quit then and just didn’t go back.

[Assistant] Did you only stay in this area?

[User] Yes. Probably a year or so after we married, we moved here, just one street over. We have been here ever since. After about nine years, we moved to this house. So, we’ve been within the block of where we were practically the whole 60 years we were married.

[Assistant] Lots of people at Langley chose this community.

[User] They did. A lot of people bought lots here and built homes. I think that’s why we probably ended up here, too. Joe’s boss bought a home, and I think that got us interested in coming here and looking around. There are quite a few. You can go around and find the “NACA-nut” houses. My good friend lived across the street, one house back. You can’t see the house from here, but she always said, “My house is a typical NASA house. Everybody who passes by can tell it’s a NASA house.”

[Assistant] Why could they tell that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Probably a year or so after we married, we moved here, just one street over. We have been here ever since. After about nine years, we moved to this house. So, we’ve been within the block of where we were practically the whole 60 years we were married.

[Assistant] Lots of people at Langley chose this community.

[User] They did. A lot of people bought lots here and built homes. I think that’s why we probably ended up here, too. Joe’s boss bought a home, and I think that got us interested in coming here and looking around. There are quite a few. You can go around and find the “NACA-nut” houses. My good friend lived across the street, one house back. You can’t see the house from here, but she always said, “My house is a typical NASA house. Everybody who passes by can tell it’s a NASA house.”

[Assistant] Why could they tell that?

[User] No real trim on it, and higher windows. I know three or four that had the windows up high and very efficient. They had radiant heat in the floor and all of this, that, and the other; just very fundamental and their own design and not a whole lot of eye appeal.

[Assistant]
Return on their investment.

We just spoke to Sue Johnson. She was saying that her husband finished and built—they moved into an unfinished house, and then he built everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did. A lot of people bought lots here and built homes. I think that’s why we probably ended up here, too. Joe’s boss bought a home, and I think that got us interested in coming here and looking around. There are quite a few. You can go around and find the “NACA-nut” houses. My good friend lived across the street, one house back. You can’t see the house from here, but she always said, “My house is a typical NASA house. Everybody who passes by can tell it’s a NASA house.”

[Assistant] Why could they tell that?

[User] No real trim on it, and higher windows. I know three or four that had the windows up high and very efficient. They had radiant heat in the floor and all of this, that, and the other; just very fundamental and their own design and not a whole lot of eye appeal.

[Assistant]
Return on their investment.

We just spoke to Sue Johnson. She was saying that her husband finished and built—they moved into an unfinished house, and then he built everything.

[User] When hers was done, it didn’t look like a NASA house. It has much more curb appeal than most did.

[Assistant] I know, in the Houston area, when people did move in, they came from Virginia, and it was quite a shock for the people from this area to come down to Houston, just because of the climate and the way things looked. They went into neighborhoods and kind of filled up those areas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No real trim on it, and higher windows. I know three or four that had the windows up high and very efficient. They had radiant heat in the floor and all of this, that, and the other; just very fundamental and their own design and not a whole lot of eye appeal.

[Assistant]
Return on their investment.

We just spoke to Sue Johnson. She was saying that her husband finished and built—they moved into an unfinished house, and then he built everything.

[User] When hers was done, it didn’t look like a NASA house. It has much more curb appeal than most did.

[Assistant] I know, in the Houston area, when people did move in, they came from Virginia, and it was quite a shock for the people from this area to come down to Houston, just because of the climate and the way things looked. They went into neighborhoods and kind of filled up those areas.

[User] Kind of did their own thing.

[Assistant] Yes, and then they really affected the local culture. Their kids all went to the same schools, and they had swim teams, and all the kids knew each other, and that sort of thing. When you all moved into these neighborhoods, was it sort of the same thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When hers was done, it didn’t look like a NASA house. It has much more curb appeal than most did.

[Assistant] I know, in the Houston area, when people did move in, they came from Virginia, and it was quite a shock for the people from this area to come down to Houston, just because of the climate and the way things looked. They went into neighborhoods and kind of filled up those areas.

[User] Kind of did their own thing.

[Assistant] Yes, and then they really affected the local culture. Their kids all went to the same schools, and they had swim teams, and all the kids knew each other, and that sort of thing. When you all moved into these neighborhoods, was it sort of the same thing?

[User] Yes, definitely. When we built our house here, I guess half the people there were from NASA. We all had young children, and we spent half the day sitting on stoops, letting the children play and this sort of thing. We continued to have lots of activities out at the field. We would go out there for things. It was very friendly. It was just like a big family.

[Assistant] In ’59, they had the first open house. Did you go to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kind of did their own thing.

[Assistant] Yes, and then they really affected the local culture. Their kids all went to the same schools, and they had swim teams, and all the kids knew each other, and that sort of thing. When you all moved into these neighborhoods, was it sort of the same thing?

[User] Yes, definitely. When we built our house here, I guess half the people there were from NASA. We all had young children, and we spent half the day sitting on stoops, letting the children play and this sort of thing. We continued to have lots of activities out at the field. We would go out there for things. It was very friendly. It was just like a big family.

[Assistant] In ’59, they had the first open house. Did you go to that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember touring all of the facilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, definitely. When we built our house here, I guess half the people there were from NASA. We all had young children, and we spent half the day sitting on stoops, letting the children play and this sort of thing. We continued to have lots of activities out at the field. We would go out there for things. It was very friendly. It was just like a big family.

[Assistant] In ’59, they had the first open house. Did you go to that?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember touring all of the facilities?

[User] We went to some of the facilities. I continued to go to the functions at the Full-Scale Tunnel.

[Assistant] What kinds of functions did they have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember touring all of the facilities?

[User] We went to some of the facilities. I continued to go to the functions at the Full-Scale Tunnel.

[Assistant] What kinds of functions did they have?

[User] They would have parties. They would have oyster roasts in the wintertime, we would go there. Later on, they started having Christmas parties. I can’t remember but different anniversaries, I suppose, or when some dignitaries were there. Of course, you’d see a lot of people that you had worked with and knew. A lot of my friends stayed in this area, and we continued to be friends throughout our married life. Some moved away, but a lot of them stayed.

[Assistant] Did the groups mingle together based on where you worked, like people from the East side or the West side?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to some of the facilities. I continued to go to the functions at the Full-Scale Tunnel.

[Assistant] What kinds of functions did they have?

[User] They would have parties. They would have oyster roasts in the wintertime, we would go there. Later on, they started having Christmas parties. I can’t remember but different anniversaries, I suppose, or when some dignitaries were there. Of course, you’d see a lot of people that you had worked with and knew. A lot of my friends stayed in this area, and we continued to be friends throughout our married life. Some moved away, but a lot of them stayed.

[Assistant] Did the groups mingle together based on where you worked, like people from the East side or the West side?

[User] Yes. Most of the people I knew had worked on the East side, unless they got married later, and then I met them that way. But, the people I really I knew best early on were the people who worked on the East side. There were just a couple of tunnels there. What was the water one? They had one that was the water—I can’t remember—and then that had the Full-Scale Tunnel, and they had the 19-Foot. There may be one other one on our side. We had the little BX [Base Exchange] at Langley—a little place where we could go eat and a few little things like that. We never did go to the NASA Cafeteria.

[Assistant] That was the Air Force Cafeteria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would have parties. They would have oyster roasts in the wintertime, we would go there. Later on, they started having Christmas parties. I can’t remember but different anniversaries, I suppose, or when some dignitaries were there. Of course, you’d see a lot of people that you had worked with and knew. A lot of my friends stayed in this area, and we continued to be friends throughout our married life. Some moved away, but a lot of them stayed.

[Assistant] Did the groups mingle together based on where you worked, like people from the East side or the West side?

[User] Yes. Most of the people I knew had worked on the East side, unless they got married later, and then I met them that way. But, the people I really I knew best early on were the people who worked on the East side. There were just a couple of tunnels there. What was the water one? They had one that was the water—I can’t remember—and then that had the Full-Scale Tunnel, and they had the 19-Foot. There may be one other one on our side. We had the little BX [Base Exchange] at Langley—a little place where we could go eat and a few little things like that. We never did go to the NASA Cafeteria.

[Assistant] That was the Air Force Cafeteria?

[User] It was the Air Force. We had that. We had the runways right behind us.

[Assistant] I want to go back and ask about the first thing you said. I’m fascinated by the fact that you took a plane here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Most of the people I knew had worked on the East side, unless they got married later, and then I met them that way. But, the people I really I knew best early on were the people who worked on the East side. There were just a couple of tunnels there. What was the water one? They had one that was the water—I can’t remember—and then that had the Full-Scale Tunnel, and they had the 19-Foot. There may be one other one on our side. We had the little BX [Base Exchange] at Langley—a little place where we could go eat and a few little things like that. We never did go to the NASA Cafeteria.

[Assistant] That was the Air Force Cafeteria?

[User] It was the Air Force. We had that. We had the runways right behind us.

[Assistant] I want to go back and ask about the first thing you said. I’m fascinated by the fact that you took a plane here.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Tell me about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the Air Force. We had that. We had the runways right behind us.

[Assistant] I want to go back and ask about the first thing you said. I’m fascinated by the fact that you took a plane here.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Tell me about that.

[User] I did. I remember wearing high-heeled shoes. I was really dressed up. It was on Capitol Airlines. A young guy was the attendant. He must have known I was scared to death. I must have looked apprehensive. He asked me if I would like to help him serve meals. I said, “Yes, I would.” Here I was with my high-heeled shoes on. I don’t know what else we had, but we had green peas. I remember that, because I remember trying to keep those trays straight and serve green peas that wouldn’t roll off the plate.

[Assistant] That’s so funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Tell me about that.

[User] I did. I remember wearing high-heeled shoes. I was really dressed up. It was on Capitol Airlines. A young guy was the attendant. He must have known I was scared to death. I must have looked apprehensive. He asked me if I would like to help him serve meals. I said, “Yes, I would.” Here I was with my high-heeled shoes on. I don’t know what else we had, but we had green peas. I remember that, because I remember trying to keep those trays straight and serve green peas that wouldn’t roll off the plate.

[Assistant] That’s so funny.

[User] But, I did.

[Assistant] How many people on the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I remember wearing high-heeled shoes. I was really dressed up. It was on Capitol Airlines. A young guy was the attendant. He must have known I was scared to death. I must have looked apprehensive. He asked me if I would like to help him serve meals. I said, “Yes, I would.” Here I was with my high-heeled shoes on. I don’t know what else we had, but we had green peas. I remember that, because I remember trying to keep those trays straight and serve green peas that wouldn’t roll off the plate.

[Assistant] That’s so funny.

[User] But, I did.

[Assistant] How many people on the plane?

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] That is amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, I did.

[Assistant] How many people on the plane?

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] That is amazing.

[User] Isn’t that something? I guess I just wanted an adventure.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s quite a choice, because I know we talked to a lot of people that got here by train. You are the first one we’ve talked to that flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember.

[Assistant] That is amazing.

[User] Isn’t that something? I guess I just wanted an adventure.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s quite a choice, because I know we talked to a lot of people that got here by train. You are the first one we’ve talked to that flew.

[User] I flew into Norfolk.

[Assistant] Then, you had airfields behind you for five years, and you married somebody who was an aeronautical engineer. It was kind of like it was destined to happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn’t that something? I guess I just wanted an adventure.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s quite a choice, because I know we talked to a lot of people that got here by train. You are the first one we’ve talked to that flew.

[User] I flew into Norfolk.

[Assistant] Then, you had airfields behind you for five years, and you married somebody who was an aeronautical engineer. It was kind of like it was destined to happen.

[User] That I definitely wasn’t going to do. I said, “I want to work. I really want to work for a while. I don’t want to get married.” That was a surprise that I ended up getting married.

[Assistant] Did you ever ask him if he really needed that card table?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I flew into Norfolk.

[Assistant] Then, you had airfields behind you for five years, and you married somebody who was an aeronautical engineer. It was kind of like it was destined to happen.

[User] That I definitely wasn’t going to do. I said, “I want to work. I really want to work for a while. I don’t want to get married.” That was a surprise that I ended up getting married.

[Assistant] Did you ever ask him if he really needed that card table?

[User] I have always accused him. I really don’t think he ever used that card table. I think he was told that two new girls had just moved into the apartment. He was just across the street, so he wanted to meet these two girls who had moved in. My roommate was the other girl from MSCW. She was a PE [Physical Education] major. She had had some math, but she hadn’t had nearly the math I had. It was really funny, because she got her mathematician rating before I did, because she had had a science course. She took astronomy—a course that everybody took because it was so easy. I hadn’t had a science course, so I had to wait to get my mathematician’s rating. I thought that was so funny, that you had to have so many hours of science. I had enough hours of math to have a major and a minor in math, because I liked it. I thought that was so strange.

[Assistant] That was your first introduction to how the government figures things out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I definitely wasn’t going to do. I said, “I want to work. I really want to work for a while. I don’t want to get married.” That was a surprise that I ended up getting married.

[Assistant] Did you ever ask him if he really needed that card table?

[User] I have always accused him. I really don’t think he ever used that card table. I think he was told that two new girls had just moved into the apartment. He was just across the street, so he wanted to meet these two girls who had moved in. My roommate was the other girl from MSCW. She was a PE [Physical Education] major. She had had some math, but she hadn’t had nearly the math I had. It was really funny, because she got her mathematician rating before I did, because she had had a science course. She took astronomy—a course that everybody took because it was so easy. I hadn’t had a science course, so I had to wait to get my mathematician’s rating. I thought that was so funny, that you had to have so many hours of science. I had enough hours of math to have a major and a minor in math, because I liked it. I thought that was so strange.

[Assistant] That was your first introduction to how the government figures things out.

[User] It was. It just didn’t make sense to me.

[Assistant] Did you actually take the civil service exam?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have always accused him. I really don’t think he ever used that card table. I think he was told that two new girls had just moved into the apartment. He was just across the street, so he wanted to meet these two girls who had moved in. My roommate was the other girl from MSCW. She was a PE [Physical Education] major. She had had some math, but she hadn’t had nearly the math I had. It was really funny, because she got her mathematician rating before I did, because she had had a science course. She took astronomy—a course that everybody took because it was so easy. I hadn’t had a science course, so I had to wait to get my mathematician’s rating. I thought that was so funny, that you had to have so many hours of science. I had enough hours of math to have a major and a minor in math, because I liked it. I thought that was so strange.

[Assistant] That was your first introduction to how the government figures things out.

[User] It was. It just didn’t make sense to me.

[Assistant] Did you actually take the civil service exam?

[User] I never took it.

[Assistant] You never had to. You just got certified or whatever the term was at that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It just didn’t make sense to me.

[Assistant] Did you actually take the civil service exam?

[User] I never took it.

[Assistant] You never had to. You just got certified or whatever the term was at that time.

[User] Yes, they just automatically changed over.

[Assistant] After you’d been there for a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never took it.

[Assistant] You never had to. You just got certified or whatever the term was at that time.

[User] Yes, they just automatically changed over.

[Assistant] After you’d been there for a while.

[User] I don’t remember how long. It wasn’t too long. I expected to come up and use my math. I was really excited about that, and I punched that machine instead.

[Assistant] When you went back to teaching, did you teach math?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they just automatically changed over.

[Assistant] After you’d been there for a while.

[User] I don’t remember how long. It wasn’t too long. I expected to come up and use my math. I was really excited about that, and I punched that machine instead.

[Assistant] When you went back to teaching, did you teach math?

[User] Yes. I didn’t work at all while the kids were growing up. Then, my youngest one went off to college, and I thought, “I’m not going to sit here.” I think I did a little tutoring, maybe—just a little bit. I had wanted to substitute teach, just to see if I would enjoy it, because I got my teaching certificate from Mississippi. My boys would not let me go into the public school and substitute—that was during integration, and there was so much misbehavior and this sort of thing.\n\n So, when Randy went off to college, I went to Hampton Roads Academy, which is a college preparatory school here, just to substitute. I thought I would like to be put on the substitute list and see. I had always wanted to teach and didn’t get a chance to. We talked about that. They said, “Well, we really need a math teacher—a high school math teacher.”\n\n I said, “Oh, I don’t know.” I hadn’t used my math in so long, but I ended up teaching about nine or ten years and just loved it. I just loved it.

[Assistant] Was it general math, or was it algebra?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember how long. It wasn’t too long. I expected to come up and use my math. I was really excited about that, and I punched that machine instead.

[Assistant] When you went back to teaching, did you teach math?

[User] Yes. I didn’t work at all while the kids were growing up. Then, my youngest one went off to college, and I thought, “I’m not going to sit here.” I think I did a little tutoring, maybe—just a little bit. I had wanted to substitute teach, just to see if I would enjoy it, because I got my teaching certificate from Mississippi. My boys would not let me go into the public school and substitute—that was during integration, and there was so much misbehavior and this sort of thing.\n\n So, when Randy went off to college, I went to Hampton Roads Academy, which is a college preparatory school here, just to substitute. I thought I would like to be put on the substitute list and see. I had always wanted to teach and didn’t get a chance to. We talked about that. They said, “Well, we really need a math teacher—a high school math teacher.”\n\n I said, “Oh, I don’t know.” I hadn’t used my math in so long, but I ended up teaching about nine or ten years and just loved it. I just loved it.

[Assistant] Was it general math, or was it algebra?

[User] I taught algebra and geometry. I substituted a little bit, but I didn’t get up to calculus with that. I’ve forgotten what the highest math was I substituted in. By that time, I had lost my math skills.

[Assistant] It wouldn’t be hard to lose calculus!


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I didn’t work at all while the kids were growing up. Then, my youngest one went off to college, and I thought, “I’m not going to sit here.” I think I did a little tutoring, maybe—just a little bit. I had wanted to substitute teach, just to see if I would enjoy it, because I got my teaching certificate from Mississippi. My boys would not let me go into the public school and substitute—that was during integration, and there was so much misbehavior and this sort of thing.\n\n So, when Randy went off to college, I went to Hampton Roads Academy, which is a college preparatory school here, just to substitute. I thought I would like to be put on the substitute list and see. I had always wanted to teach and didn’t get a chance to. We talked about that. They said, “Well, we really need a math teacher—a high school math teacher.”\n\n I said, “Oh, I don’t know.” I hadn’t used my math in so long, but I ended up teaching about nine or ten years and just loved it. I just loved it.

[Assistant] Was it general math, or was it algebra?

[User] I taught algebra and geometry. I substituted a little bit, but I didn’t get up to calculus with that. I’ve forgotten what the highest math was I substituted in. By that time, I had lost my math skills.

[Assistant] It wouldn’t be hard to lose calculus!

[User] I enjoyed the algebra and geometry.

[Assistant] That’s neat. That’s good that you got a chance to actually teach since that’s what you started out wanting to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught algebra and geometry. I substituted a little bit, but I didn’t get up to calculus with that. I’ve forgotten what the highest math was I substituted in. By that time, I had lost my math skills.

[Assistant] It wouldn’t be hard to lose calculus!

[User] I enjoyed the algebra and geometry.

[Assistant] That’s neat. That’s good that you got a chance to actually teach since that’s what you started out wanting to do.

[User] That was one thing, I guess, that you could say was on my bucket list. I really wanted to teach.

[Assistant] I’m sure the pay was better then than it was when you first looked into it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed the algebra and geometry.

[Assistant] That’s neat. That’s good that you got a chance to actually teach since that’s what you started out wanting to do.

[User] That was one thing, I guess, that you could say was on my bucket list. I really wanted to teach.

[Assistant] I’m sure the pay was better then than it was when you first looked into it.

[User] Well, I don’t know. This was a private school. I said that was my community service. The pay was so poor, but I did get an annuity from it that ended up having grown quite a bit, so that was very nice. I had two children in college at that time; somehow they knew when pay day was. I usually got a phone call. I didn’t see much of the pay.

[Assistant]
I was going to say that some things never change, do they?

You raised smart children!

Did they go on and do math or engineering?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t know. This was a private school. I said that was my community service. The pay was so poor, but I did get an annuity from it that ended up having grown quite a bit, so that was very nice. I had two children in college at that time; somehow they knew when pay day was. I usually got a phone call. I didn’t see much of the pay.

[Assistant]
I was going to say that some things never change, do they?

You raised smart children!

Did they go on and do math or engineering?

[User] No. We had one that would have been a great engineer, but he decided he didn’t want to do that. He started in business and ended up in agriculture. He’s a plant pathologist. He does a lot of lab work. He is like an engineer. He would have made a great engineer, but he is a good plant pathologist.\n\n One is an economist. He was in economics, and he works for the government in [Washington,] DC. My oldest one went in the Air Force, and now he is in Seattle. He’s with Homeland Security there, after he retired from the Air Force. So, that’s what they did.

[Assistant] Three boys.

[User] Three boys and just two years apart—each one of them.

[Assistant] That was a handful. I can see why you stayed home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We had one that would have been a great engineer, but he decided he didn’t want to do that. He started in business and ended up in agriculture. He’s a plant pathologist. He does a lot of lab work. He is like an engineer. He would have made a great engineer, but he is a good plant pathologist.\n\n One is an economist. He was in economics, and he works for the government in [Washington,] DC. My oldest one went in the Air Force, and now he is in Seattle. He’s with Homeland Security there, after he retired from the Air Force. So, that’s what they did.

[Assistant] Three boys.

[User] Three boys and just two years apart—each one of them.

[Assistant] That was a handful. I can see why you stayed home.

[User] It was. It really was. Then, after I finished teaching, I did tutor, just to keep my hands in it. I always enjoyed the math. I enjoyed teaching the girls; they just knew they didn’t like math, because their mothers weren’t good in math, and it was fun to try to turn them around to where they really liked it.

[Assistant] When you first went to college and you majored in math—well, you were at a women’s college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three boys and just two years apart—each one of them.

[Assistant] That was a handful. I can see why you stayed home.

[User] It was. It really was. Then, after I finished teaching, I did tutor, just to keep my hands in it. I always enjoyed the math. I enjoyed teaching the girls; they just knew they didn’t like math, because their mothers weren’t good in math, and it was fun to try to turn them around to where they really liked it.

[Assistant] When you first went to college and you majored in math—well, you were at a women’s college.

[User] Yes, I was at a women’s college. There weren’t too many math majors, but there were some.

[Assistant] But, it was just something you always wanted to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It really was. Then, after I finished teaching, I did tutor, just to keep my hands in it. I always enjoyed the math. I enjoyed teaching the girls; they just knew they didn’t like math, because their mothers weren’t good in math, and it was fun to try to turn them around to where they really liked it.

[Assistant] When you first went to college and you majored in math—well, you were at a women’s college.

[User] Yes, I was at a women’s college. There weren’t too many math majors, but there were some.

[Assistant] But, it was just something you always wanted to do?

[User] I enjoyed it. Well, I really didn’t know what I was going to major in. I had a minor in journalism and English, but when I started the math courses, I enjoyed it. I figured I’d just be a math teacher. That’s what I did my practice teaching in. That’s what I thought I would be.

[Assistant] Were your parents in education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was at a women’s college. There weren’t too many math majors, but there were some.

[Assistant] But, it was just something you always wanted to do?

[User] I enjoyed it. Well, I really didn’t know what I was going to major in. I had a minor in journalism and English, but when I started the math courses, I enjoyed it. I figured I’d just be a math teacher. That’s what I did my practice teaching in. That’s what I thought I would be.

[Assistant] Were your parents in education?

[User] Yes, my mother taught school—not when we were growing up, but she taught before she married, and then when my youngest sister went into school, she taught again. So, I guess I got the teaching—and she went to the same college that I went to. I guess that’s why I ended up there. They encouraged that.

[Assistant] Where was your husband from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed it. Well, I really didn’t know what I was going to major in. I had a minor in journalism and English, but when I started the math courses, I enjoyed it. I figured I’d just be a math teacher. That’s what I did my practice teaching in. That’s what I thought I would be.

[Assistant] Were your parents in education?

[User] Yes, my mother taught school—not when we were growing up, but she taught before she married, and then when my youngest sister went into school, she taught again. So, I guess I got the teaching—and she went to the same college that I went to. I guess that’s why I ended up there. They encouraged that.

[Assistant] Where was your husband from?

[User] He was from Atlanta, Georgia. He went to Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology] and majored in aeronautical engineering. He came straight from Georgia Tech here.

[Assistant] He stayed in the south. That’s not too far from home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, my mother taught school—not when we were growing up, but she taught before she married, and then when my youngest sister went into school, she taught again. So, I guess I got the teaching—and she went to the same college that I went to. I guess that’s why I ended up there. They encouraged that.

[Assistant] Where was your husband from?

[User] He was from Atlanta, Georgia. He went to Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology] and majored in aeronautical engineering. He came straight from Georgia Tech here.

[Assistant] He stayed in the south. That’s not too far from home.

[User] It’s been a great life, really. Virginia is my home. Some of my family would like me to come back to Mississippi. Virginia is home.

[Assistant] You’ve spent more time here than you have in Mississippi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was from Atlanta, Georgia. He went to Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology] and majored in aeronautical engineering. He came straight from Georgia Tech here.

[Assistant] He stayed in the south. That’s not too far from home.

[User] It’s been a great life, really. Virginia is my home. Some of my family would like me to come back to Mississippi. Virginia is home.

[Assistant] You’ve spent more time here than you have in Mississippi.

[User] I really have. I have enjoyed being here.

[Assistant] It’s beautiful. It’s just beautiful. Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I remember we were answering one question with one demo and we needed to zoom in on the particular activity, but while we could remotely zoom that particular camera, we couldn’t remotely pan and tilt it. So you could zoom in and then you totally miss what it is you’re looking at because you can’t pan or tilt it, and you’re doing this as Dave and Al and Clay and I are in front of the camera and we’re trying to do all this with no one operating the camera from behind. I would say we did the best we could and it was a lot of fun, but I’m sure it wasn’t very high quality.

[Assistant] But the point got across.

[User] I hope so.

[Assistant] I think that was what was good about the mission, and because you were on that mission, the mission took on a different aspect. There seemed to be some discussion that you were a mission specialist and had been an educator, and not the educator mission specialist.

[User] That was a change in personnel at the top. Our NASA Administrator Sean O’Keefe felt it was very important and saw that the Teacher in Space Program goal had still not been completed and he wanted it to happen. Then he initiated the Educator Astronaut Program, and we brought in more teachers to the astronaut corps, which was great; they are terrific. Then the next administrator said, “No, she’s not a teacher. She’s a mission specialist.” That’s just the way it goes.

[Assistant] Yes, it takes attention away from what I guess you wanted to really do and that was to bring the lessons alive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so.

[Assistant] I think that was what was good about the mission, and because you were on that mission, the mission took on a different aspect. There seemed to be some discussion that you were a mission specialist and had been an educator, and not the educator mission specialist.

[User] That was a change in personnel at the top. Our NASA Administrator Sean O’Keefe felt it was very important and saw that the Teacher in Space Program goal had still not been completed and he wanted it to happen. Then he initiated the Educator Astronaut Program, and we brought in more teachers to the astronaut corps, which was great; they are terrific. Then the next administrator said, “No, she’s not a teacher. She’s a mission specialist.” That’s just the way it goes.

[Assistant] Yes, it takes attention away from what I guess you wanted to really do and that was to bring the lessons alive.

[User] Yes, you want to bring the lessons alive and you also want it to be good for the crew and the mission. Definitely what you don’t want is one individual standing out, and I agree with this—that’s another reason why the conceived “wow factor” or the perceived “wow factor” that some folks had in their minds—that was going to make a crewmember stand out—was problematic. I think that was likely part of the reasoning behind not having a special category of “educator mission specialist.”

[Assistant] But it was nice to see in the STS-118 crew patch, the design had the flame of knowledge.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you want to bring the lessons alive and you also want it to be good for the crew and the mission. Definitely what you don’t want is one individual standing out, and I agree with this—that’s another reason why the conceived “wow factor” or the perceived “wow factor” that some folks had in their minds—that was going to make a crewmember stand out—was problematic. I think that was likely part of the reasoning behind not having a special category of “educator mission specialist.”

[Assistant] But it was nice to see in the STS-118 crew patch, the design had the flame of knowledge.

[User] We did, and our crew was really good about that. This was an education mission and we wanted to highlight that as a crew. In addition to everything else that we were doing, education was an important part of the mission. People wanted to put an apple on our crew patch, and we talked about that, but we really wanted to honor teachers and students, and past, present, and future. That flame of knowledge actually came from the Teacher in Space Program patch and that was the real symbolism behind including the flame of knowledge, so it was honoring the past and moving into the future. The idea there, if you read that description, is that the orbit that encircles the astronaut symbol starts with that flame of knowledge, so we were trying to symbolize that all of what we’re able to do for space exploration. It’s all based on having a good education system and having a good educational foundation, so it all starts with education. That’s where it starts.

[Assistant] Do you feel like the mission went fast. You had all the years and all the thoughts of preparation; then you’re up and you are down?

[User] Yes, it does go really fast. Too fast.

[Assistant] And that was not your only assignment on that mission. You had other things that you were assigned to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It goes a long way back.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was born the year after [Charles] Lindbergh made his flight, and when I thought about it retrospectively after I received your questions, I began to realize that that influenced my life quite a lot. I remember now at about age four or so, or five, that I had a little Lindbergh helmet, a leather helmet with goggles on it. It was a replica of his. My son had one of Davey Crockett later on, it just dawned on me. I remember going to a birthday party of Freddy Moore when I was about that same age. I took a book on Lindbergh's flight. I think that's what it was. Anyway, obviously I couldn't read at that age. Freddy later became the chief acceptance pilot for the RCAF [Royal Canadian Air Force]. He accepted C-100 aircraft. I met him again years later when we were both about twenty-eight…\n\n Let's see. I guess that sort of got me—I made a few notes here.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I guess I'll just mention a few of the other things. I used to keep a little scrapbook that I'd cut pictures out of magazines and newspapers of airplanes, and filled that up. I guess it wasn't aerodynamics at that time; it was just flight.

[Assistant] Do you still have that scrapbook?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born the year after [Charles] Lindbergh made his flight, and when I thought about it retrospectively after I received your questions, I began to realize that that influenced my life quite a lot. I remember now at about age four or so, or five, that I had a little Lindbergh helmet, a leather helmet with goggles on it. It was a replica of his. My son had one of Davey Crockett later on, it just dawned on me. I remember going to a birthday party of Freddy Moore when I was about that same age. I took a book on Lindbergh's flight. I think that's what it was. Anyway, obviously I couldn't read at that age. Freddy later became the chief acceptance pilot for the RCAF [Royal Canadian Air Force]. He accepted C-100 aircraft. I met him again years later when we were both about twenty-eight…\n\n Let's see. I guess that sort of got me—I made a few notes here.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I guess I'll just mention a few of the other things. I used to keep a little scrapbook that I'd cut pictures out of magazines and newspapers of airplanes, and filled that up. I guess it wasn't aerodynamics at that time; it was just flight.

[Assistant] Do you still have that scrapbook?

[User] No, I haven't. I wish I could find it again. I lived in British Columbia, which was mountains up and down, and one of my jobs as a little boy was to go downtown and get the groceries and bring them back up the hill. It was always an arduous trip down and back up, and every once in a while an airplane would fly over the town. I used to marvel at how they didn't have to go down and up; they just flew straight across. So some of the practical ramifications of flight struck home to me at a fairly early age.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was just two or three days after my eighteenth birthday, I soloed a plane in Vancouver, and that same year I got my private pilot's license. So I was getting up into the little bigger time now.

[Assistant] It must have been exciting for you.

[User] Yes, it was. It was a great time. My father didn't like aviation, actually, because his cousin, whom he went to visit in the First World War on leave in France, when he got there his cousin had just been killed, been shot down and killed, and I think that [bad] taste stayed in his mouth the rest of his life, but he did let me go to school and study airplane design in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in Spartan College of Aeronautical Engineering. It wasn't very heavy on aerodynamics, but it was very heavy on structures, structural design of aircraft.\n\n So when I graduated from that, I applied for jobs in every company in the U.S., and there were no jobs in 1949. There had been a tremendous buildup of [civil] aviation after the Second World War, especially light aircraft, but by 1949 it was in a complete slump. But fortunately I was able to get a job with A.V. Roe [AVRO] in Canada. They were moving ahead quite aggressively, and that's where I started the AVRO experience. And, of course, what they really needed was structural designers. They had lots of aerodynamicists, but their structural design was pretty weak, I'm afraid. They had civil engineers from various universities working there, and they were not aircraft structures they were designing. So I went up like a rocket in that organization, which—but I guess I'm getting off the track a little, am I?

[Assistant] No, no, not at all. We can move right into your work with AVRO.

[User] Okay. You said something about space flight. Do you want me to go back on that also?

[Assistant] Were you interested in space flight early on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The technical adventures were quite appealing, to—at least to a young boy.

[Assistant] I'm sure they were.

[User] I think they still are.

[Assistant] Yes. They're still pretty popular nowadays...With all your interest and then your schooling, you did move into working with AVRO. What was your first project there as you came on?

[User] When you speak of projects, the projects usually are different aircraft or different tasks on an aircraft. I wasn't sure what you meant by that. The types of aircraft I worked on at AVRO were the C-102 Jetliner. In fact, that was my first job. It had flown about two months before I got there. A nose wheel door had blown off on one flight, so my very first job was to redesign the hinges.

[Assistant] Important. Very important.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they still are.

[Assistant] Yes. They're still pretty popular nowadays...With all your interest and then your schooling, you did move into working with AVRO. What was your first project there as you came on?

[User] When you speak of projects, the projects usually are different aircraft or different tasks on an aircraft. I wasn't sure what you meant by that. The types of aircraft I worked on at AVRO were the C-102 Jetliner. In fact, that was my first job. It had flown about two months before I got there. A nose wheel door had blown off on one flight, so my very first job was to redesign the hinges.

[Assistant] Important. Very important.

[User] So that was my first design. They said to me, "Don't worry about the weight," because it was tail-heavy. And years later, when I knew a little bit more, when I had a little bit more experience designing things, I saw my design, and that door would never fall off. [Laughter] So that was my very first job, and that was in design. I was placed in the nose section, and my friend Ken Lenz from Spartan wrote me a letter when I told him that, he said, "Well, that's where they put all the snots, isn't it?" [Laughter] Incidentally, that was before he was married, and just last year I helped him celebrate his fiftieth wedding anniversary.

[Assistant] Wonderful! That's great. That's great you've been able to keep in contact with old friends like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When you speak of projects, the projects usually are different aircraft or different tasks on an aircraft. I wasn't sure what you meant by that. The types of aircraft I worked on at AVRO were the C-102 Jetliner. In fact, that was my first job. It had flown about two months before I got there. A nose wheel door had blown off on one flight, so my very first job was to redesign the hinges.

[Assistant] Important. Very important.

[User] So that was my first design. They said to me, "Don't worry about the weight," because it was tail-heavy. And years later, when I knew a little bit more, when I had a little bit more experience designing things, I saw my design, and that door would never fall off. [Laughter] So that was my very first job, and that was in design. I was placed in the nose section, and my friend Ken Lenz from Spartan wrote me a letter when I told him that, he said, "Well, that's where they put all the snots, isn't it?" [Laughter] Incidentally, that was before he was married, and just last year I helped him celebrate his fiftieth wedding anniversary.

[Assistant] Wonderful! That's great. That's great you've been able to keep in contact with old friends like that.

[User] Yes. I did a little bit more work on that airplane. The first airplane had flown and we were designing a second prototype, which was quite a bit of improved structure and so forth on it. It never flew; it was canceled. But I did work on redesigning the forward pressure bulkhead, which was a very interesting thing to design because it sat up in the nose and the canopy came out of the top of it, so there was a change in direction there. Then the nose landing gear trunion attached to it, and, of course, it also supported the rudder pedals and things like that. So it was a good introductory exercise in design.

[Assistant] And a very important area to be working in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a difficult job, because most airplanes have wing sections that are 15 percent thick or so. This had wing sections that were 3 percent thick, so when you got back to the trailing edge [the control surfaces] were long and thin.

[Assistant] That must have been challenging.

[User] And then it was a supersonic airplane, so all the air loads, due to control-surface deflection, are behind the hinge line, so they had huge hinge moments. So they had the two things: a very thin surface and very huge hinge moments. At first it looked as though it wasn't possible to design control surfaces. I tried making one out of solid steel actuated at one point, and it was still not stiff enough. When I had been at college, I had designed the flap system for the Spartan Model 12 Executive, just as a school exercise, so that [experience] taught me about using multiple actuators, so I designed a multiple actuator and bell-crank system that distributed the hinge moment along the surface and was able to get away with a quite light control surface, just thin aluminum skins and so forth. That preliminary design was actually used in the…Arrow that you see flying up there on the wall.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] And the elevator…design…type was used for the ailerons and the rudder as well. So that was my contribution to the early design of the AVRO Arrow.

[Assistant] How did it progress? You said this was the early design of the Arrow and then it progressed forward and it did change a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you asked me about NASA. I studied many NASA reports, of course, during the time I was working in loads, so I knew an awful lot about NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] , [as] it was at that time. I knew a lot about them before I ever was invited to work on the space program.

[Assistant] Okay. Great. You mentioned taking a break to go back to school. Did you continue any work at AVRO at the time or were you on leave?

[User] I notice you mentioned coops. I don't think coop programs were in existence at that time, but we had summer students. No, what I did was actually take a leave of absence for the seven months. A year's study in Canada at that time was seven months long. That's the fall and spring semester…there were no summer sessions at all. So it's five months off in the summer and then seven months for the rest of the year. And that worked out very well. That worked out very well.\n\n I had a very tiny assistantship for the second year. I think it was $900 for the whole year, 150 a month, and then they just forgot the last month. [Laughter] But it enabled us to survive. My first wife supported me during that time.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] She was really good at that.

[Assistant] That's very good. I'm sure even though that $100 was important at that time. I know what it's like being a student. Every little bit counts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I notice you mentioned coops. I don't think coop programs were in existence at that time, but we had summer students. No, what I did was actually take a leave of absence for the seven months. A year's study in Canada at that time was seven months long. That's the fall and spring semester…there were no summer sessions at all. So it's five months off in the summer and then seven months for the rest of the year. And that worked out very well. That worked out very well.\n\n I had a very tiny assistantship for the second year. I think it was $900 for the whole year, 150 a month, and then they just forgot the last month. [Laughter] But it enabled us to survive. My first wife supported me during that time.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] She was really good at that.

[Assistant] That's very good. I'm sure even though that $100 was important at that time. I know what it's like being a student. Every little bit counts.

[User] They say that giving money is an inappropriate gift, but that year my parents sent me a check for $100, and tears rolled down our cheeks when we opened the envelope. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's great. Well, parents are pretty good at figuring out what their kids can use.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was really good at that.

[Assistant] That's very good. I'm sure even though that $100 was important at that time. I know what it's like being a student. Every little bit counts.

[User] They say that giving money is an inappropriate gift, but that year my parents sent me a check for $100, and tears rolled down our cheeks when we opened the envelope. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's great. Well, parents are pretty good at figuring out what their kids can use.

[User] That's true. That's quite true.

[Assistant] That's great. You did go back to work at AVRO, and you mentioned getting into the loads [group]. At that point were you at all involved with the Arrow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we did do the analysis. And I did myself the fin and rudder loads on the C-105. It's interesting to realize that the Arrow was virtually a brand-new type of airplane in those days, and the usual rules, the regulations and so forth, the military specs for designing airplanes, when we tried to apply them to that kind of design, it would make the fin, for example, so heavy that the airplane would never fly. So we had to put together our own specifications and prove [to the Air Force] that they would be adequate. So I gained a lot of experience doing new kinds of regulation-writing that stood me in good stead when it came to the space program. There was nothing written down as to what to do, so we put together all the specifications for manned [space] flight. I think on Project Mercury we did that, and to a large extent those were used on Project Apollo. So it all built up, one step led to another and so on.

[Assistant] That's good. That's kind of the way it's supposed to work, I guess, step by step.

[User] I think I've been very fortunate in my life to have a lot of very good jobs. And then on the other hand, I was also fortunate enough, perhaps, to be ready for the next step when it came along. So, being prepared is not a bad motto. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Not bad at all.

[User] You never know what's around the next corner.

[Assistant] That's right. You never know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Another thing, too, when we launched rockets from that machine, the rockets would leave, be fired through a nice streamlined nose cone, and that changed the aerodynamic shape and it blew a tail cone off, too, so they had now a nice blunt object there. Well, that meant that the flow had to go around a less streamlined body, and there was more kinetic energy in the flow going around it, and that led to large shock load factors. That's the same process that occurs in parachute [opening]. So I had some insight into what parachute shock loads would be later on.\n\n So everything sort of fit together, as long as you just let your curiosity prompt you to ask the questions why things happen, and then it's amazing how often the solution to one problem will be around for new problems. It's still happening today where I'm working now as a consultant.

[Assistant] That's good, you can just learn from each step and keep an open mind and be able to figure it out as you go along. Great.\n\n While you were working in AVRO and with the Arrow, it eventually got canceled.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you aware beforehand of the possibility? And then how did you hear about that coming about?

[User] Yes, we had heard a year, half a year ahead or so of time…The Prime Minister had threatened to cancel it, and I knew that, and I think everybody in the country realized that, but the people inside the company were kind of blinded by the [length of time] the project had been going thus far, and they managed to persuade me that it wasn't going to happen. [Laughter] But, of course, it did happen. If you ask me what was my response to that, my response was to run all the way to the Credit Union and sell my AVRO stock.. [Laughter] And I managed to catch it just before it went fwttttt, and got my money out, just exactly what I paid for it. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's good. Quick thinking. [Laughter] Very quick thinking.