[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] It’s a bit hard to think of what to write.

[Assistant] Even with what- I hear that there are questions prompts right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So even then that was a bit hard?

[User] Yeah, cause I’m quite scared if I give like- I don’t know whether is it offensive to him.

[Assistant] What if it’s anonymous?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So even then that was a bit hard?

[User] Yeah, cause I’m quite scared if I give like- I don’t know whether is it offensive to him.

[Assistant] What if it’s anonymous?

[User] Wah.

[Assistant] In Scribo is it anonymous? No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, cause I’m quite scared if I give like- I don’t know whether is it offensive to him.

[Assistant] What if it’s anonymous?

[User] Wah.

[Assistant] In Scribo is it anonymous? No?

[User] We will just ask “Who is it, who is it?”

[Assistant] Then just don’t say. But it can be anonymous right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Wah.

[Assistant] In Scribo is it anonymous? No?

[User] We will just ask “Who is it, who is it?”

[Assistant] Then just don’t say. But it can be anonymous right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, in school do you do peer review?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] We will just ask “Who is it, who is it?”

[Assistant] Then just don’t say. But it can be anonymous right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, in school do you do peer review?

[User] Peer review...

[Assistant] So does your teacher do the same thing? Okay, “you all look at each other’s work, give each other feedback.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, in school do you do peer review?

[User] Peer review...

[Assistant] So does your teacher do the same thing? Okay, “you all look at each other’s work, give each other feedback.”

[User] That was primary school.

[Assistant] In all of Sec 3, you never? Two and a half years never?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Peer review...

[Assistant] So does your teacher do the same thing? Okay, “you all look at each other’s work, give each other feedback.”

[User] That was primary school.

[Assistant] In all of Sec 3, you never? Two and a half years never?

[User] Never.

[Assistant] Okay, I’m trying to compare and understand a little bit better. Okay let’s now just focus on Scribo alone. Is your experience of Scribo this year better than last year? I mean, do you like using it better this year or not so much, or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] That was primary school.

[Assistant] In all of Sec 3, you never? Two and a half years never?

[User] Never.

[Assistant] Okay, I’m trying to compare and understand a little bit better. Okay let’s now just focus on Scribo alone. Is your experience of Scribo this year better than last year? I mean, do you like using it better this year or not so much, or?

[User] I guess it’s the same.

[Assistant] I think last year obviously, “I do not know what to do with it” and it’s all completely online with Ms O. This year, there is face-to- face. So which one did you find- which kind of condition do you feel was easier to use Scribo? Completely online or face-to-face?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Never.

[Assistant] Okay, I’m trying to compare and understand a little bit better. Okay let’s now just focus on Scribo alone. Is your experience of Scribo this year better than last year? I mean, do you like using it better this year or not so much, or?

[User] I guess it’s the same.

[Assistant] I think last year obviously, “I do not know what to do with it” and it’s all completely online with Ms O. This year, there is face-to- face. So which one did you find- which kind of condition do you feel was easier to use Scribo? Completely online or face-to-face?

[User] Face-to-face.

[Assistant]
Is there a reason why? I mean I can imagine why, but I need to hear it from you. JIIMY Because last year online, that day was a CCA day. So I have to rush back, eat dinner and then time to attend the lesson.

I see, so tired lah?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I guess it’s the same.

[Assistant] I think last year obviously, “I do not know what to do with it” and it’s all completely online with Ms O. This year, there is face-to- face. So which one did you find- which kind of condition do you feel was easier to use Scribo? Completely online or face-to-face?

[User] Face-to-face.

[Assistant]
Is there a reason why? I mean I can imagine why, but I need to hear it from you. JIIMY Because last year online, that day was a CCA day. So I have to rush back, eat dinner and then time to attend the lesson.

I see, so tired lah?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Harder to concentrate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Face-to-face.

[Assistant]
Is there a reason why? I mean I can imagine why, but I need to hear it from you. JIIMY Because last year online, that day was a CCA day. So I have to rush back, eat dinner and then time to attend the lesson.

I see, so tired lah?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Harder to concentrate?

[User] I was just trying to focus as hard as I can.

[Assistant] Sure, sure, that’s being very responsible. But apart from the fact that it was your CCA, what is it about face-to-face makes it easier to be using Scribo as part of your English tuition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Harder to concentrate?

[User] I was just trying to focus as hard as I can.

[Assistant] Sure, sure, that’s being very responsible. But apart from the fact that it was your CCA, what is it about face-to-face makes it easier to be using Scribo as part of your English tuition?

[User] Face-to-face I know I can make friends each other and talk to them. And then the teacher, I can talk to him more.

[Assistant] Okay, so more direct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I was just trying to focus as hard as I can.

[Assistant] Sure, sure, that’s being very responsible. But apart from the fact that it was your CCA, what is it about face-to-face makes it easier to be using Scribo as part of your English tuition?

[User] Face-to-face I know I can make friends each other and talk to them. And then the teacher, I can talk to him more.

[Assistant] Okay, so more direct?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] As opposed to online, it’s a bit difficult even with the chat box and all that right? So more restrictive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Face-to-face I know I can make friends each other and talk to them. And then the teacher, I can talk to him more.

[Assistant] Okay, so more direct?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] As opposed to online, it’s a bit difficult even with the chat box and all that right? So more restrictive.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, did you understand Scribo feedback better this year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] As opposed to online, it’s a bit difficult even with the chat box and all that right? So more restrictive.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, did you understand Scribo feedback better this year?

[User] Scribo feedback?

[Assistant] Yeah, so like last year, check like “what is it saying?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, did you understand Scribo feedback better this year?

[User] Scribo feedback?

[Assistant] Yeah, so like last year, check like “what is it saying?”

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It’s better this year? In what way-what was it that was better this year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Scribo feedback?

[Assistant] Yeah, so like last year, check like “what is it saying?”

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It’s better this year? In what way-what was it that was better this year?

[User] The words they give to correct our wrong words was more than what I saw last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so there was more variety to help you along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It’s better this year? In what way-what was it that was better this year?

[User] The words they give to correct our wrong words was more than what I saw last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so there was more variety to help you along.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you see any or notice any changes in the way you were using Scribo? Let’s say for example, last time maybe didn’t use “check” so much but this year more. Last time maybe use “check” for every paragraph but this year use check for the whole-? I don’t know ... any difference in the way you were interacting with Scribo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] The words they give to correct our wrong words was more than what I saw last year.

[Assistant] Okay, so there was more variety to help you along.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you see any or notice any changes in the way you were using Scribo? Let’s say for example, last time maybe didn’t use “check” so much but this year more. Last time maybe use “check” for every paragraph but this year use check for the whole-? I don’t know ... any difference in the way you were interacting with Scribo?

[User] Once I change my words after correcting it, my marks went up.

[Assistant] Okay, that felt good right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you see any or notice any changes in the way you were using Scribo? Let’s say for example, last time maybe didn’t use “check” so much but this year more. Last time maybe use “check” for every paragraph but this year use check for the whole-? I don’t know ... any difference in the way you were interacting with Scribo?

[User] Once I change my words after correcting it, my marks went up.

[Assistant] Okay, that felt good right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So were you always trying to change so that you can see the marks go up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Once I change my words after correcting it, my marks went up.

[Assistant] Okay, that felt good right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So were you always trying to change so that you can see the marks go up?

[User] Yeah, but last year once I change, the marks went down.

[Assistant] So there’s a difference between the two. That means actually you understand what the system was trying to tell you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So were you always trying to change so that you can see the marks go up?

[User] Yeah, but last year once I change, the marks went down.

[Assistant] So there’s a difference between the two. That means actually you understand what the system was trying to tell you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s a good thing. Okay, if we were to continue here on, let’s say the second half of the yea , would you want to continue with Scribo? Or it makes no difference, or must have Scribo from here on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, but last year once I change, the marks went down.

[Assistant] So there’s a difference between the two. That means actually you understand what the system was trying to tell you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s a good thing. Okay, if we were to continue here on, let’s say the second half of the yea , would you want to continue with Scribo? Or it makes no difference, or must have Scribo from here on?

[User] Yeah, I will continue.

[Assistant] Is there a reason?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s a good thing. Okay, if we were to continue here on, let’s say the second half of the yea , would you want to continue with Scribo? Or it makes no difference, or must have Scribo from here on?

[User] Yeah, I will continue.

[Assistant] Is there a reason?

[User] Cause it’s quite fun to use.

[Assistant] Fun? In what way is it fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, I will continue.

[Assistant] Is there a reason?

[User] Cause it’s quite fun to use.

[Assistant] Fun? In what way is it fun?

[User] Like I can-

[Assistant] Okay so you said you want to continue because it was fun. In what way is it fun? ...So in what way is using Scribo fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Cause it’s quite fun to use.

[Assistant] Fun? In what way is it fun?

[User] Like I can-

[Assistant] Okay so you said you want to continue because it was fun. In what way is it fun? ...So in what way is using Scribo fun?

[User] I get to see my marks going higher.

[Assistant] Ah, okay so that’s that. Come to think of it, do you compete with your friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Like I can-

[Assistant] Okay so you said you want to continue because it was fun. In what way is it fun? ...So in what way is using Scribo fun?

[User] I get to see my marks going higher.

[Assistant] Ah, okay so that’s that. Come to think of it, do you compete with your friends?

[User] In sports only.

[Assistant] Okay, but in terms of Scribo scores? Do you kind of like “chey you only have-”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I get to see my marks going higher.

[Assistant] Ah, okay so that’s that. Come to think of it, do you compete with your friends?

[User] In sports only.

[Assistant] Okay, but in terms of Scribo scores? Do you kind of like “chey you only have-”

[User] A bit.

[Assistant] Okay you all do look at each other’s-


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] In sports only.

[Assistant] Okay, but in terms of Scribo scores? Do you kind of like “chey you only have-”

[User] A bit.

[Assistant] Okay you all do look at each other’s-

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, can. What else in the lesson makes it fun also? I mean, either Ms O’s class or Mr Y’s class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] A bit.

[Assistant] Okay you all do look at each other’s-

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, can. What else in the lesson makes it fun also? I mean, either Ms O’s class or Mr Y’s class?

[User] Mr Y’s Kahoot.

[Assistant] Okay, so you like Kahoot. What was it about Kahoot? Don’t tell me it’s about the game, the competition again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, can. What else in the lesson makes it fun also? I mean, either Ms O’s class or Mr Y’s class?

[User] Mr Y’s Kahoot.

[Assistant] Okay, so you like Kahoot. What was it about Kahoot? Don’t tell me it’s about the game, the competition again?

[User] Yeah the competing.

[Assistant] So the Kahoot, anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Mr Y’s Kahoot.

[Assistant] Okay, so you like Kahoot. What was it about Kahoot? Don’t tell me it’s about the game, the competition again?

[User] Yeah the competing.

[Assistant] So the Kahoot, anything else?

[User] And the mistakes we made during the Kahoot quiz, we get to understand.

[Assistant] Okay, Mr Y says that sometimes he takes out examples from essays and then shows you all. Maybe have a laugh over the mistakes and stuff like that. Are such things engaging for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah the competing.

[Assistant] So the Kahoot, anything else?

[User] And the mistakes we made during the Kahoot quiz, we get to understand.

[Assistant] Okay, Mr Y says that sometimes he takes out examples from essays and then shows you all. Maybe have a laugh over the mistakes and stuff like that. Are such things engaging for you?

[User] Yeah, engaging.

[Assistant] Okay, anything else that made it such that you would want to continue this tuition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] And the mistakes we made during the Kahoot quiz, we get to understand.

[Assistant] Okay, Mr Y says that sometimes he takes out examples from essays and then shows you all. Maybe have a laugh over the mistakes and stuff like that. Are such things engaging for you?

[User] Yeah, engaging.

[Assistant] Okay, anything else that made it such that you would want to continue this tuition?

[User] The way he makes fun of ChatGPT.

[Assistant] Okay, so are you using ChatGPT on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah, engaging.

[Assistant] Okay, anything else that made it such that you would want to continue this tuition?

[User] The way he makes fun of ChatGPT.

[Assistant] Okay, so are you using ChatGPT on your own?

[User] No I don’t.

[Assistant] Okay, are there other things that you use on the internet or whatever it is to help you with your work? It doesn’t have to be English, it can be anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] The way he makes fun of ChatGPT.

[Assistant] Okay, so are you using ChatGPT on your own?

[User] No I don’t.

[Assistant] Okay, are there other things that you use on the internet or whatever it is to help you with your work? It doesn’t have to be English, it can be anything.

[User] Google.

[Assistant] So you only make use of Google. So search information and stuff like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] No I don’t.

[Assistant] Okay, are there other things that you use on the internet or whatever it is to help you with your work? It doesn’t have to be English, it can be anything.

[User] Google.

[Assistant] So you only make use of Google. So search information and stuff like that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you use any other thing on the Internet to help you specifically with English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Google.

[Assistant] So you only make use of Google. So search information and stuff like that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you use any other thing on the Internet to help you specifically with English?

[User] Maybe dictionary?

[Assistant] Okay, so you check the dictionary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you use any other thing on the Internet to help you specifically with English?

[User] Maybe dictionary?

[Assistant] Okay, so you check the dictionary.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s great. This next part, just 5 more minutes. I’m very glad the first thing you were talking about is your marks have improved. So how do you feel about yourself in learning of English now? Are you more confident, less confident, same or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Maybe dictionary?

[Assistant] Okay, so you check the dictionary.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s great. This next part, just 5 more minutes. I’m very glad the first thing you were talking about is your marks have improved. So how do you feel about yourself in learning of English now? Are you more confident, less confident, same or?

[User] Maybe more confident.

[Assistant] Okay, out of a score of 10, so 3 out of 10 more confident, 5 out of 10 more confident, 10 out of 10 more confident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, that’s great. This next part, just 5 more minutes. I’m very glad the first thing you were talking about is your marks have improved. So how do you feel about yourself in learning of English now? Are you more confident, less confident, same or?

[User] Maybe more confident.

[Assistant] Okay, out of a score of 10, so 3 out of 10 more confident, 5 out of 10 more confident, 10 out of 10 more confident?

[User] I think 7.

[Assistant] Okay, so tell me why 7 out of 10 more confident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Maybe more confident.

[Assistant] Okay, out of a score of 10, so 3 out of 10 more confident, 5 out of 10 more confident, 10 out of 10 more confident?

[User] I think 7.

[Assistant] Okay, so tell me why 7 out of 10 more confident?

[User] Cause as I learn more about English, and I scored better marks than the last time, I start to get more confident as ...it’s just very confident.

[Assistant] So maybe you flip it the other way, you’re not so scared of English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I think 7.

[Assistant] Okay, so tell me why 7 out of 10 more confident?

[User] Cause as I learn more about English, and I scored better marks than the last time, I start to get more confident as ...it’s just very confident.

[Assistant] So maybe you flip it the other way, you’re not so scared of English?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so confidence comes from knowing that you can do it, right? Is that a good way to describe confidence? Meaning that “okay lah, can lah”. So what are the things you think you can do for English this year that maybe last year you were not so...?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Cause as I learn more about English, and I scored better marks than the last time, I start to get more confident as ...it’s just very confident.

[Assistant] So maybe you flip it the other way, you’re not so scared of English?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so confidence comes from knowing that you can do it, right? Is that a good way to describe confidence? Meaning that “okay lah, can lah”. So what are the things you think you can do for English this year that maybe last year you were not so...?

[User] I think it’s Paper 1, I was more confident than Paper 2

[Assistant] Okay, what does your teacher do and what does Mr Y do for comprehension?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so confidence comes from knowing that you can do it, right? Is that a good way to describe confidence? Meaning that “okay lah, can lah”. So what are the things you think you can do for English this year that maybe last year you were not so...?

[User] I think it’s Paper 1, I was more confident than Paper 2

[Assistant] Okay, what does your teacher do and what does Mr Y do for comprehension?

[User] Comprehension... my school they don’t do preparation but here they do more preparation.

[Assistant] Okay, in what sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I think it’s Paper 1, I was more confident than Paper 2

[Assistant] Okay, what does your teacher do and what does Mr Y do for comprehension?

[User] Comprehension... my school they don’t do preparation but here they do more preparation.

[Assistant] Okay, in what sense?

[User] So, they will go through what we will do, and then what’s the topic to write while my school they give just what we do, then we just start to write.

[Assistant] That’s for composition right? What about comprehension?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Comprehension... my school they don’t do preparation but here they do more preparation.

[Assistant] Okay, in what sense?

[User] So, they will go through what we will do, and then what’s the topic to write while my school they give just what we do, then we just start to write.

[Assistant] That’s for composition right? What about comprehension?

[User] Comprehension, my school will do more preparation comprehension than here.

[Assistant] Okay, so how do they prepare you for comprehension?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] So, they will go through what we will do, and then what’s the topic to write while my school they give just what we do, then we just start to write.

[Assistant] That’s for composition right? What about comprehension?

[User] Comprehension, my school will do more preparation comprehension than here.

[Assistant] Okay, so how do they prepare you for comprehension?

[User] So they will find like words then after highlighting it, we will go to the passage and then we just highlight the words, and then we just write it.

[Assistant] So, the keywords in the question is it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Comprehension, my school will do more preparation comprehension than here.

[Assistant] Okay, so how do they prepare you for comprehension?

[User] So they will find like words then after highlighting it, we will go to the passage and then we just highlight the words, and then we just write it.

[Assistant] So, the keywords in the question is it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you find it, and then okay...Over here how is comprehension done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] So they will find like words then after highlighting it, we will go to the passage and then we just highlight the words, and then we just write it.

[Assistant] So, the keywords in the question is it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you find it, and then okay...Over here how is comprehension done?

[User] Over here comprehension... I don’t think there was comprehension.

[Assistant]
The fact that you have to think so hard that means- didn’t make an impact. Just to wrap up then. If you imagine I’m a Sec 2 student, okay not Sec 2. I’m wondering whether Sec 2 or Sec 3 but I guess that doesn’t matter. Not so good with English language right now and trying to look for help.

And then if you think that CDAC, this tuition program along with the use of Scribo has been helpful to you, and you want to recommend it to him, what would you say? Imagine it’s your situational writing, formal letter kind of thing. So what would you say to him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then you find it, and then okay...Over here how is comprehension done?

[User] Over here comprehension... I don’t think there was comprehension.

[Assistant]
The fact that you have to think so hard that means- didn’t make an impact. Just to wrap up then. If you imagine I’m a Sec 2 student, okay not Sec 2. I’m wondering whether Sec 2 or Sec 3 but I guess that doesn’t matter. Not so good with English language right now and trying to look for help.

And then if you think that CDAC, this tuition program along with the use of Scribo has been helpful to you, and you want to recommend it to him, what would you say? Imagine it’s your situational writing, formal letter kind of thing. So what would you say to him?

[User] I would say that Scribo has helped me a lot by writing- mentioning what are the mistakes that I make while writing, and how I can improve on it. Yeah, that’s all.

[Assistant] Okay I need to ask one thing, because somebody said that actually didn’t like Scribo telling him the mistakes all at once. He found it a bit overwhelming. You hit “check” and then- does that affect you as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Over here comprehension... I don’t think there was comprehension.

[Assistant]
The fact that you have to think so hard that means- didn’t make an impact. Just to wrap up then. If you imagine I’m a Sec 2 student, okay not Sec 2. I’m wondering whether Sec 2 or Sec 3 but I guess that doesn’t matter. Not so good with English language right now and trying to look for help.

And then if you think that CDAC, this tuition program along with the use of Scribo has been helpful to you, and you want to recommend it to him, what would you say? Imagine it’s your situational writing, formal letter kind of thing. So what would you say to him?

[User] I would say that Scribo has helped me a lot by writing- mentioning what are the mistakes that I make while writing, and how I can improve on it. Yeah, that’s all.

[Assistant] Okay I need to ask one thing, because somebody said that actually didn’t like Scribo telling him the mistakes all at once. He found it a bit overwhelming. You hit “check” and then- does that affect you as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it finds all the mistake and you go one by one to- how does that compare with getting your teacher’s feedback? You know your teacher, and then you take a paper and you [word vomit]. Isn’t that same or different? How do you react when you get your teacher’s marking back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] I would say that Scribo has helped me a lot by writing- mentioning what are the mistakes that I make while writing, and how I can improve on it. Yeah, that’s all.

[Assistant] Okay I need to ask one thing, because somebody said that actually didn’t like Scribo telling him the mistakes all at once. He found it a bit overwhelming. You hit “check” and then- does that affect you as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So it finds all the mistake and you go one by one to- how does that compare with getting your teacher’s feedback? You know your teacher, and then you take a paper and you [word vomit]. Isn’t that same or different? How do you react when you get your teacher’s marking back?

[User] I will try to understand what she is saying. And then from then on, I will try to amend my mistakes.

[Assistant] So again going one by one, the way Scribo does.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Or a vendor at market that's just at market.

[Assistant] I guess to shift gears a little bit and talk about that. You do matching, too, right? Then, Produce Plus, of course. What are some of the experiences that you've witnessed with farmers around those programs, either benefits that they've gotten from the program—

[User] Enthusiasm or pushback—

[Assistant] Yeah. I know it's not a one-size-fits-all, every single vendor has the same experience. They're all going to be a little different, but what were some of your experiences seeing that? Especially this past season with a new implementation of Produce Plus.

[User] There have been some interactions where vendors and customers have expressed either confusion, whatever is a little less severe than disdain. No one’s been outright, I hate poor people and don’t want to do this, but people would be like, you're changing the business balance. A lot of coded shit like, you're changing the customer balance of our market or attracting the wrong customers and that kind of thing. That does happen a little bit.

[Assistant] What does the coded shit mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] Enthusiasm or pushback—

[Assistant] Yeah. I know it's not a one-size-fits-all, every single vendor has the same experience. They're all going to be a little different, but what were some of your experiences seeing that? Especially this past season with a new implementation of Produce Plus.

[User] There have been some interactions where vendors and customers have expressed either confusion, whatever is a little less severe than disdain. No one’s been outright, I hate poor people and don’t want to do this, but people would be like, you're changing the business balance. A lot of coded shit like, you're changing the customer balance of our market or attracting the wrong customers and that kind of thing. That does happen a little bit.

[Assistant] What does the coded shit mean?

[User] Sorry. Kind of coded language. If someone’s talking about, changing the customer makeup or the clientele, it usually means they're bringing in lower-income people that people perceive can't buy stuff at farmer’s markets. One of our markets we have to have that dialogue with our farmers, but the way that we've turned them around to it is, there's millions of government subsidies out there, so why would you not want that being spent at your thing? No one is super outright and rude about or really ideologically opposed it. It's just new. This is their first exposure to working with our programs and such. That market and in that area, we have pretty basic access programming going on, and it still is looked to as a great example for the region just because it's a different-minded population. A lot of the vendors that we work with, in our market guidelines there's definitions and summaries of types of federal benefits and what they can be spent on and how all the programs work. All of that information is put out up front. With our express mission, it's not really a secret that's what we're doing at all. A lot of that is like, obviously, but it still is a part of the communication.

[Assistant] Is there ever confusion around that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] The line is just kind of there, really.

[Assistant] But who mans the line?

[User] That would be us. Managers. That would be us. We would have a small group of volunteers that were connected to us specifically for Produce Plus by other organizations. The managing organization, BC Greens, had The Brigade. I'm at Columbia Heights. I'm the manager. There's 10 vendors. There's me. There's another CFW staff person. There's two of our volunteers that are just, they volunteer at the market. Then, there's four Brigade volunteers. So, you put the Brigade volunteers on all the transaction stuff with Produce Plus, running the app, writing the checks, doing all of that. Experienced volunteers or staff can kind of corral the line depending on how large it is. We would hand out numbers for everybody and try and keep them all in line. You call people one by one to a couple different stalls or cash registers, the different things. It's a pretty hectic thing, honestly. Even when it's running well, it's a hectic and loud thing. What was really surprising was, there was a lot/too much self-policing with the line going on. If there's a line of 30 people, 28 would keep number and 27 and 29 in check, almost. People would call out other people trying to cut in line. There were tensions that arose among the different groups of people that were utilizing and receiving Produce Plus a little bit.

[Assistant] What does that mean?

[User] Just trying to be super PC with that kind of thing. It was a lot of, from certain—man, I can't pleasantly say it. Is that fine?

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for academic interviews.

[User] You would come in and break—I didn't really have to personally break anything up, but people would be yelling at each other. I'd just try to calm people down. Get their attention, ask what was the actual problem. A lot of the stuff was just really enforcement or misunderstanding of the rules or the number system or the line. If somebody was clearly trying to game the system a little, you could call them out and tell them, you have to follow these rules to be in this program. Just reiterating that was enough. Very few people would bicker with you or fight with you. They'd be like, yeah, okay. It's weird. I'm kind of good at doing this, but I can't tell you how.

[Assistant] That's why I'm interviewing people, because everyone seems to have that experience.

[User] Yeah. There was this time two years ago, there was a meat vendor that was selling frozen stuff by the pound. They would use the calculator on their scale, you can picture in your head, but the scale wasn’t the right kind of scale because it had the display on one side and not both sides and it wasn’t inspected. The D.C. regulatory consumer affairs came and did scale inspections, like, you have to stop selling with this scale. You have to get it inspected and bring it back. It was really dumb on the vendor’s side, because he was like, okay. Then, the inspector went to the next stall and then the vendor took the scale out again and starting using it, and the inspector came back and was like, dude, I'm going to fine you. I literally told you to not do that. He like, it's a $3,000 fine to not do that. I went and talked to the guy and then he left. I don’t really know exactly what I said. I don't know.

[Assistant] That's okay.

[User] Really not helpful.

[Assistant] The fact that you had the conversation is the helpful part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] When you came into NASA, you were from Texas originally, so moving to Houston probably wasn't too big of a shock. And getting back into a warmer climate, as you mentioned, the other one was too cold. What was the atmosphere at NASA like when you came in? Things were gearing up for going to the Moon. You said you moved right into Apollo. Was everything flowing pretty well at that point?

[User] Well, I can't say it was flowing smoothly, because they had just moved from their offices downtown Houston. I understand they had offices scattered around pretty good waiting for the new center to be completed. When I got here in 1964 or thereabouts, they had finished most of the permanent buildings. I moved into Building 4, and it was still being straightened out and painted and put together. So there was some confusion because of the move from Houston into the new center and completing the new building. But everybody was getting their job done. I mean, it wasn't slowing down the space race in any way. They were still developing organizations, assigning members, and recruiting people, and that sort of thing.\n\n They had some really good people. I guess that was the most impressive thing for me. I've worked with mostly military in the previous jobs, and these people came from everywhere, all the managers. I'd heard they were the best talent in the world, and I certainly believe that's true. So I was very impressed with my co-workers and their ability to get things done. I learned a lot from them real quick. I thought I knew a lot when I stepped in, but I found out there's some talent out there that people can't even imagine. So everything got started very efficiently and quickly.

[Assistant] It's fortunate to be able to work with a group of people like that.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Not many can say that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I can't say it was flowing smoothly, because they had just moved from their offices downtown Houston. I understand they had offices scattered around pretty good waiting for the new center to be completed. When I got here in 1964 or thereabouts, they had finished most of the permanent buildings. I moved into Building 4, and it was still being straightened out and painted and put together. So there was some confusion because of the move from Houston into the new center and completing the new building. But everybody was getting their job done. I mean, it wasn't slowing down the space race in any way. They were still developing organizations, assigning members, and recruiting people, and that sort of thing.\n\n They had some really good people. I guess that was the most impressive thing for me. I've worked with mostly military in the previous jobs, and these people came from everywhere, all the managers. I'd heard they were the best talent in the world, and I certainly believe that's true. So I was very impressed with my co-workers and their ability to get things done. I learned a lot from them real quick. I thought I knew a lot when I stepped in, but I found out there's some talent out there that people can't even imagine. So everything got started very efficiently and quickly.

[Assistant] It's fortunate to be able to work with a group of people like that.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Not many can say that.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] You said the first things you involved with where the crew stations, the displays, the control panel. At what stage was the Apollo program when you came in? How many designs had already been done, and what areas specifically were you working on there? Or was it all still being done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] You mentioned working closely with the astronauts doing all of this, since they were the ones going to be using it. Were you also working closely with the contractors then?

[User] Oh, yes. That's an interesting thing about this place. Everybody works for NASA, but when you go in and start looking at the details, there are not very many civil servants, you know, pure NASA guys. The majority, vast majority, are support contractors. Without them, there would not have been a space program. Their contributions were—you can't even describe it.\n\n My interface at that time, back in the early Apollo days, was North American [Aviation, Inc.], which later became Rockwell [International Corporation], and they were the big contributors to the building of the vehicle and most of the design work on it. I guess our job, we did contribute to designs and ideas and testing, but we were probably the pushers, to make sure that they delivered on schedule, that they went through the right test procedures, that we were getting safe equipment and, of course, keep it within budget. So we found ourselves managing in that light more than the day-to-day hammering out metal and delivering a usable product.\n\n That was a good position to be in, you know, because you had access to all kind of the different ideas that were coming in, and you could help select the ones you thought were best and proceed with them.

[Assistant] Certainly an interesting role to fill.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] You talked about the differences between the Apollo spacecraft and submarines, ships, and such like that, and the similarities with aircraft. Were you able to build on any of the work that had been done on the Mercury and Gemini capsules?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] You talked about the differences between the Apollo spacecraft and submarines, ships, and such like that, and the similarities with aircraft. Were you able to build on any of the work that had been done on the Mercury and Gemini capsules?

[User] Certainly. Those experiences and results were viewed very carefully in developing Apollo. We didn't want to put something in the command module that didn't work in the Gemini capsule so we stayed in close proximity to everything that was going on there. In fact, people in our section were on support teams that supported the astronauts in the Gemini flights, and those results were fed back to us…in real time so that we could benefit from them.\n\n I did not participate directly in the Gemini flights, other than to go to the debriefings and hear the pros and cons of their experiences, but absolutely, it was step functions right up through the Shuttle. We used everything that was learned in the past to do things in the future.

[Assistant] Certainly very important to employ those lessons learned.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with the trainers that were used for the simulations for the missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Were you involved at all with the trainers that were used for the simulations for the missions?

[User] Yes. In our division, I guess at least a third of the division was devoted to crew training, and you learn an awful lot when the crews go and do the training exercises. You know, we'd put a mock-up out there or simulator—our job was primarily mock-ups—and the crew would go in and run through their procedures, and they would invariably find things, "Hey, this isn't going to work. We need to do something different."\n\n We would immediately take those kind of comments and feed them into our design loop. The beauty of having the mock-ups in our division, we could very quickly put in new ideas, take crew comments and incorporate them into the mock-ups and training vehicles, and they would say, yes, this is going to do it, or, no, let's move it a little to the right or paint it green or what have you. So absolutely, the training program supported very closely the design efforts.\n\n The division again, the Flight Crew Support Division, was under [Donald K.] "Deke" Slayton, and the astronaut corps was under Deke Slayton, so we had it all in the same directorate, which made it convenient and efficient, I think. I don't think any design was ever even presented to a change board for approval or consideration without it first going through an astronaut loop of some kind to make sure it was something they felt was reasonable. They didn't always agree with it, but it was good business to have them in the early stages of it. They're a pretty sharp bunch.

[Assistant] That's good. Well, they certainly were picked as some of the prime candidates from their area of expertise as aviators.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Shortly after you had come to NASA a few years, you had been working on Apollo for a while, and the Apollo 1 fire happened, which was a great tragedy for everyone at NASA. There was a period of recovery there and some redesign. Can you discuss anything that you were involved with in that redesign process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] It took about eighteen months, I think, to get back.

[User] Yes. I think that's right.

[Assistant] With coming back on line with flight status with Apollo 7, that must have been a rewarding time, to see everything go so well with that mission, from a technical standpoint especially, and there were no major problems at all with the spacecraft during that time. Was that a morale-builder for the center?

[User] Oh, absolutely. I think people had been working—you know, it was nothing to come out and see guys out here that'd been on the job for twelve, thirteen, fifteen hours. You didn't think anything of it. You're trying to meet schedules. I guess what I'm saying is everybody worked real, real hard. I think that Apollo 7 thing kind of stirred folks up, so they wanted to do real good to make up for that.\n\n I remember—I guess [Frank] Borman's flight [Apollo 8] around the Christmas time frame where he circled the Moon was a real shot in the arm, "Hey, it's going to work." And when [R. Walter] Cunningham and his troops, Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.] and [Donn F.] Eisele, I believe, became the first manned Apollo flight, when that was successful, you had to feel real good about that.\n\n You've got to remember, during this time we were really in competition with another country, and although we tried not to pay any attention to that, it was a factor. We wanted to be the first ones up there. That goes back again, I think without the leadership and management that we had at that time we would never have been as successful. It would have eventually happened, but we had some folks that were willing to step up and say, "Hey, we're ready. Let's do it." And we did.

[Assistant] Certainly did. Certainly did. The missions did go very well, leading up to the landing and even beyond.\n\n What were your duties during the mission times, when they were actually up flying? Were you providing support in any way for the missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I guess my particular area, we supported from two different directions really. I was a subsystem manager for the crew station, and there were many subsystem managers across the center, you know, the ECS [Environmental Control System], the propulsion, electrical, communications, and so forth. Direct support during the mission came from the flight directors, which were the key folks, the ones you read about and you see on television. In the back rooms, and we called it the MER [Mission Evaluation Room], I believe, the subsystem managers and the design engineers congregated during a mission, and we were in direct contact not with the crew but with the flight directors. We monitored our systems, so to speak, throughout the mission, twenty-four hours a day, had shifts going.\n\n We were just next door to the flight directors, and anytime the crew had a question or the directors had a question, they would funnel it into the MER to the appropriate subsystem manager, and he, with his team, would resolve any problems, get answers back immediately. So we supported from that standpoint. I believe MER stood for Mission Evaluation Room. I'd have to check that.

[Assistant] I think that's right.

[User] But anyway, that was its purpose, backup support for the flight directors, and they really earned their pay over there. Those were hard working guys. I think that was headed up by Don [Donald D.] Arabian at that point in time. You have heard of him, a fine fellow.

[Assistant] I sure have.

[User] The other thing that our division did, we had the mock-ups and the trainers. When the crew would have problems with a procedure or difficulty in locating something or a device would not work, we could go out in our mock-up and trainer—they were fully staffed the whole time the mission was going on—and we could duplicate the problem and, in most cases, come up with a real quick solution. So having that facility available during the mission was a real asset. That was part of our operation.

[Assistant] Can you think of any particular incidents from the early Apollo missions where you did contribute in this way, either by using the mock-ups or through the back room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But anyway, that was its purpose, backup support for the flight directors, and they really earned their pay over there. Those were hard working guys. I think that was headed up by Don [Donald D.] Arabian at that point in time. You have heard of him, a fine fellow.

[Assistant] I sure have.

[User] The other thing that our division did, we had the mock-ups and the trainers. When the crew would have problems with a procedure or difficulty in locating something or a device would not work, we could go out in our mock-up and trainer—they were fully staffed the whole time the mission was going on—and we could duplicate the problem and, in most cases, come up with a real quick solution. So having that facility available during the mission was a real asset. That was part of our operation.

[Assistant] Can you think of any particular incidents from the early Apollo missions where you did contribute in this way, either by using the mock-ups or through the back room?

[User] I can't remember the flight exactly, but there was one, they had a water leak. We had a water dispenser in the commend module for drinking water, and, of course, you had to reconstitute the food. They didn't have the frozen food deal that we've got on the Shuttle. And they couldn't stop the water leak. So I was asked to go out in the mock-up and duplicate that problem and come back with a fix. I was able to do that. I got more credit than I deserved for that, because a lot of people contributed, but that was one that comes to mind that saved them a lot of trouble up there that they appreciated.

[Assistant] That was certainly important. You've got a limited space in that capsule.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I agree. I think that was really a job.

[Assistant] A very big challenge. Certainly an accomplishment and one to be proud of, though, with having done everything.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] We definitely did go to the Moon.

[User] I just wish more people could have had the direct experience and contact with that program. I say it'll never happen [again], but that's not right; it will, probably not in my lifetime. That's the only disappointment, really, with NASA. I just feel like we ought to be going to Mars now instead of circling the shuttles. We're doing a lot of good with the [International] Space Station and I know it's preparation for the next program, but I'm impatient. I wish we could [have] turn[ed] the Shuttle over to contractors, another organization, and let NASA go to Mars. I think if that would have happened, I'd still be coming to work every day.

[Assistant] Certainly that is a good motivation for coming in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] We definitely did go to the Moon.

[User] I just wish more people could have had the direct experience and contact with that program. I say it'll never happen [again], but that's not right; it will, probably not in my lifetime. That's the only disappointment, really, with NASA. I just feel like we ought to be going to Mars now instead of circling the shuttles. We're doing a lot of good with the [International] Space Station and I know it's preparation for the next program, but I'm impatient. I wish we could [have] turn[ed] the Shuttle over to contractors, another organization, and let NASA go to Mars. I think if that would have happened, I'd still be coming to work every day.

[Assistant] Certainly that is a good motivation for coming in.

[User] Going back to the repetition thing, you know, it reached the point where, in my opinion, we were doing the same thing over and over again. I never liked that. I always wanted to do something new and different. Plus I got too old, needed to step down and let somebody else play with it.

[Assistant] I don't think too old quite yet. You still seem to be doing pretty well here.\n\n Well, looking at things being new and different, Apollo 13 was very much that way. Everything needed to be done differently than had been. Can you describe some of your involvement with that? Obviously they were needing new procedures, new ways to do things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Always teamwork. Always teamwork. I don't think any one guy could take full credit for anything in the space program, and that's what made it nice.\n\n Apollo 13 demonstrated that, hey, things could go wrong and you could work through them and get those guys back. Kind of a nice feeling.

[Assistant] Absolutely. And quite a success at bringing them back safely.

[User] It was, very successful. We learned things there, also.

[Assistant] Were there any significant changes made that affected your area after Apollo 13?

[User] Nothing that I can recall. You know, that failure occurred in somebody else's subsystem. Nothing comes to mind right now of a significant nature that we did after that.

[Assistant] Well, changes that were to come a little ways down the line, as they started during the longer duration Apollo missions, Apollo 15, 16, and 17, and stayed for longer times, taking the Rover with them, bringing back a lot more samples, taking more equipment with them, what sorts of changes did that inspire for your area with the command module systems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite an accomplishment.

[Assistant] Absolutely, and that certainly has played a critical role in the space station program, Hubble [Space Telescope] as well.

[User] Absolutely. I understand it stays very busy over there now. It's a one-of-a-kind facility.

[Assistant] Talking about the facility out there, as well as the original WET-F, your involvement with that actually was from the crew interface aspect as to how they would be doing different procedures and such with the equipment. Were you also involved in some of the setting up from the safety considerations? There was an incident at one point with the WET-F where there was problem. Were you involved with any of those details?

[User] Well, we had several small incidents with the WET-F. I can't think of one specifically where anybody was permanently damaged. There was a fatality in the original—not in the tank. I'm talking about the old oil storage, the very first one. We used battery packages to work lights and things in the tank, rather than putting extension cords over in there, and while they were charging one of the batteries outside the tank in preparation for a test, it exploded and it killed one of our support guys. But with the WET-F that you're mentioning, I don't know of any [fatalities]. There was some accidents and some problems, but I don't know of anything that was—is there something you had in mind?

[Assistant] I think there was one where someone had had an incident where they had gone down and had to be rescued, a near drowning-type incident.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had several small incidents with the WET-F. I can't think of one specifically where anybody was permanently damaged. There was a fatality in the original—not in the tank. I'm talking about the old oil storage, the very first one. We used battery packages to work lights and things in the tank, rather than putting extension cords over in there, and while they were charging one of the batteries outside the tank in preparation for a test, it exploded and it killed one of our support guys. But with the WET-F that you're mentioning, I don't know of any [fatalities]. There was some accidents and some problems, but I don't know of anything that was—is there something you had in mind?

[Assistant] I think there was one where someone had had an incident where they had gone down and had to be rescued, a near drowning-type incident.

[User] Yes, and I think we may have had more than one of those. You know, anytime anybody's in the water, we have several support divers in the water with them, and they're monitored continuously. There was a time or two that the support—they were glad the support divers were there, and they brought them up, but we didn't lose anybody. By the way, you mentioned that, the new facility, have you seen it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It's something else, you know, with video monitoring of everything that goes on, and the safety aspect of it is—I won't say it's perfect, but it is really up to date.

[Assistant] You always have that opportunity to learn from any small incidents that would occur.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I think we may have had more than one of those. You know, anytime anybody's in the water, we have several support divers in the water with them, and they're monitored continuously. There was a time or two that the support—they were glad the support divers were there, and they brought them up, but we didn't lose anybody. By the way, you mentioned that, the new facility, have you seen it?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It's something else, you know, with video monitoring of everything that goes on, and the safety aspect of it is—I won't say it's perfect, but it is really up to date.

[Assistant] You always have that opportunity to learn from any small incidents that would occur.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It's certainly a big part of training for the space program, using the facilities.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's something else, you know, with video monitoring of everything that goes on, and the safety aspect of it is—I won't say it's perfect, but it is really up to date.

[Assistant] You always have that opportunity to learn from any small incidents that would occur.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It's certainly a big part of training for the space program, using the facilities.

[User] It is. It's the only way you can really realistically simulate zero G. You can go up in the "vomit comet" [KC-135 aircraft], if you will, and duplicate it for a few seconds, but you can't do any long term procedural work and hardware evaluation in that airplane. But you do a pretty good job of it in the water tank. You can go through all the maneuvers and procedures. You're not pressed for time. Although I've never had a spacesuit on, I've heard astronauts say that they've learned a lot about wearing that kind of an enclosure just by going through procedures in the water tank. So it probably helps a little bit there.

[Assistant] Were you involved with designing the different systems to be used in the tank? Obviously, things would have to be done slightly different so that they could be used underwater versus what they would have in the mock-up or simulators.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It's certainly a big part of training for the space program, using the facilities.

[User] It is. It's the only way you can really realistically simulate zero G. You can go up in the "vomit comet" [KC-135 aircraft], if you will, and duplicate it for a few seconds, but you can't do any long term procedural work and hardware evaluation in that airplane. But you do a pretty good job of it in the water tank. You can go through all the maneuvers and procedures. You're not pressed for time. Although I've never had a spacesuit on, I've heard astronauts say that they've learned a lot about wearing that kind of an enclosure just by going through procedures in the water tank. So it probably helps a little bit there.

[Assistant] Were you involved with designing the different systems to be used in the tank? Obviously, things would have to be done slightly different so that they could be used underwater versus what they would have in the mock-up or simulators.

[User] Not really. My division was responsible to put that stuff in place, but I've got to give credit to the support contractors. They did most of the development work. Our NASA folks would come up with some basic requirements and maybe some concepts, and then the contractors would go off and come up with a way to accomplish that.\n\n Johnson Engineering was a major factor in our water facility. They did all the support work. They supplied the divers and came up with some pretty good ideas on how to make it better. So I think they should get a lot of credit for our success in that world.

[Assistant] A couple of times in the Apollo program, dealing with the water facilities, the interaction between the NASA civil servants and the contractors, obviously having to work very closely together throughout this time frame, but were there ever challenges because of the difference between the civil servents and the contractors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did.

[Assistant] I guess aside from the initial problem with the launch and the difficulties in getting the station back to an operational standpoint, from your perspective, with the storage, with the transportation of materials back and forth, what would you have considered the biggest challenge in all of that for Skylab?

[User] I can't think of any real show-stoppers. We had a continuous strings of questions. You know, it was a new vehicle, a new setup. How do you do this? Where is this? It was a big volume compared to the command module and had a lot of stuff in it. So we stayed busy helping them locate things. But I can't recall any really major issues that we were involved in from our part of the world.\n\n Is there anything that you were aware of that—

[Assistant] No, nothing in particular. I thought I'd see if anything stood out for you. So you were involved, then, again, with real time support, then, as—?

[User] Yes, in the same way we did the command module. We had the MER room going.

[Assistant] After Skylab came Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP], again a very different project, not so much in the spacecraft itself but in the involvement with the Soviets and getting that interface going, and I believe you were involved some with some of the considerations on the docking module, since that was a different setup than had been used before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't think of any real show-stoppers. We had a continuous strings of questions. You know, it was a new vehicle, a new setup. How do you do this? Where is this? It was a big volume compared to the command module and had a lot of stuff in it. So we stayed busy helping them locate things. But I can't recall any really major issues that we were involved in from our part of the world.\n\n Is there anything that you were aware of that—

[Assistant] No, nothing in particular. I thought I'd see if anything stood out for you. So you were involved, then, again, with real time support, then, as—?

[User] Yes, in the same way we did the command module. We had the MER room going.

[Assistant] After Skylab came Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP], again a very different project, not so much in the spacecraft itself but in the involvement with the Soviets and getting that interface going, and I believe you were involved some with some of the considerations on the docking module, since that was a different setup than had been used before.

[User] Yes, again primarily from a mock-up and trainer standpoint and little bit different stowage arrangements, but nothing really significant that I can think of. Again, that was a change of pace. And what made it more fun than ever, I guess, was having some of the older astronauts involved in that one.

[Assistant] Deke Slayton finally was getting his chance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in the same way we did the command module. We had the MER room going.

[Assistant] After Skylab came Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project, ASTP], again a very different project, not so much in the spacecraft itself but in the involvement with the Soviets and getting that interface going, and I believe you were involved some with some of the considerations on the docking module, since that was a different setup than had been used before.

[User] Yes, again primarily from a mock-up and trainer standpoint and little bit different stowage arrangements, but nothing really significant that I can think of. Again, that was a change of pace. And what made it more fun than ever, I guess, was having some of the older astronauts involved in that one.

[Assistant] Deke Slayton finally was getting his chance.

[User] He finally got up there. The bad news was that we lost him as a director, and he's one of the best managers and supervisors I ever worked under. Boy, I can't say enough good about him. Even though you were a "peasant," he never believed that. He treated you like you were right up there with him, and if you did something good, he made sure you got recognition. If you did something bad, he made sure you knew about it so you would not do it again. I don't know of anybody that wasn't appreciative of the way he supported them. Anyway, having him on board to work with was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] It was nice to see him get that chance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, again primarily from a mock-up and trainer standpoint and little bit different stowage arrangements, but nothing really significant that I can think of. Again, that was a change of pace. And what made it more fun than ever, I guess, was having some of the older astronauts involved in that one.

[Assistant] Deke Slayton finally was getting his chance.

[User] He finally got up there. The bad news was that we lost him as a director, and he's one of the best managers and supervisors I ever worked under. Boy, I can't say enough good about him. Even though you were a "peasant," he never believed that. He treated you like you were right up there with him, and if you did something good, he made sure you got recognition. If you did something bad, he made sure you knew about it so you would not do it again. I don't know of anybody that wasn't appreciative of the way he supported them. Anyway, having him on board to work with was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] It was nice to see him get that chance.

[User] And they did a good job. I think the program was very timely and helped relations with two countries that really didn't like each other very much.

[Assistant] Were you surprised at all by the program? Here, you had been in competition with them for so long, and now doing this joint mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they did a good job. I think the program was very timely and helped relations with two countries that really didn't like each other very much.

[Assistant] Were you surprised at all by the program? Here, you had been in competition with them for so long, and now doing this joint mission.

[User] Oh, not really. I think that had to happen. You know, two countries like that just almost have to get together and get harmonious on a space venture. I think that might have happened a little sooner than most people would have expected, but I think in time it would have come about. We were glad to see it. The Russians, my experience with them in Space Station, they're not the most pleasant people in the world to work with because they do things differently.\n\n You know, they have a different attitude about schedules, and they conduct their meetings in a little bit different fashion, and I suspect they're sitting over there saying the same thing about us. We didn't always see eye to eye with each other, but boy, they're some sharp engineers, and it just took a while to get used to them. You know, they'd come over here, and we would extend our courtesies, and sometimes they were accepted and sometimes they weren't, but we managed to get the job done. Although I never went to Russia, the people that went over there regularly, after a while they didn't want to go back.

[Assistant] Definitely different than—

[User] It's different. But they're pretty sharp folks.

[Assistant] While we're talking about that, and you've mentioned Space Station here and working with the Russians in that capacity, what were the differences or similarities between Space Station as you were working on it just a few years ago versus Skylab back in '74?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was kind of fun to deal with.

[Assistant] That's certainly quite a challenge.

[User] Then rigging up a gin pole with the crewman so that he was perfectly safe was somewhat of a challenge, a little bit different than anything we'd done before. Of course, all that's in one G instead of zero G, so you had all the weight factors to deal with. I'll think of the name of that [payload]. But anyway, it worked. They retrieved it. I can't even remember the astronaut that ended up going up and doing that job.

[Assistant] I know which mission you're referring to, but unfortunately I'm drawing a blank at the moment, too.

[User] But those are the sort of things that we dealt with, with respect to payloads.

[Assistant] Certainly new challenges in that area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then rigging up a gin pole with the crewman so that he was perfectly safe was somewhat of a challenge, a little bit different than anything we'd done before. Of course, all that's in one G instead of zero G, so you had all the weight factors to deal with. I'll think of the name of that [payload]. But anyway, it worked. They retrieved it. I can't even remember the astronaut that ended up going up and doing that job.

[Assistant] I know which mission you're referring to, but unfortunately I'm drawing a blank at the moment, too.

[User] But those are the sort of things that we dealt with, with respect to payloads.

[Assistant] Certainly new challenges in that area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was this the same mission—actually, I think it probably was different. Were you involved with the mission where they ended up having to have the three crew members go out to capture a payload basically with their hands? This was in the [19]90s, and unfortunately, I'm not remembering the one now either, but what you were saying earlier made me think of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But those are the sort of things that we dealt with, with respect to payloads.

[Assistant] Certainly new challenges in that area.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was this the same mission—actually, I think it probably was different. Were you involved with the mission where they ended up having to have the three crew members go out to capture a payload basically with their hands? This was in the [19]90s, and unfortunately, I'm not remembering the one now either, but what you were saying earlier made me think of it.

[User] I'm sure we were, to the extent I mentioned earlier, helping them with the training part of it. Unfortunately, in that time frame I pushed myself up to the division chief status and I didn't get down into the fun part of it so I can't remember details. I vaguely remember what you're talking about.

[Assistant] Well, there certainly were a lot of different Shuttle missions doing a lot of different things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was this the same mission—actually, I think it probably was different. Were you involved with the mission where they ended up having to have the three crew members go out to capture a payload basically with their hands? This was in the [19]90s, and unfortunately, I'm not remembering the one now either, but what you were saying earlier made me think of it.

[User] I'm sure we were, to the extent I mentioned earlier, helping them with the training part of it. Unfortunately, in that time frame I pushed myself up to the division chief status and I didn't get down into the fun part of it so I can't remember details. I vaguely remember what you're talking about.

[Assistant] Well, there certainly were a lot of different Shuttle missions doing a lot of different things.

[User] Yes. You know, we had the [Hubble Space] Telescope repair mission, which was a real interesting operation, from our standpoint anyway, different hardware, a whole lot of different interfaces. We got to develop new tools and came up with some really weird stuff. But the guys down in the section and the mock-up area had the pleasure of getting into the nitty-gritty of that.

[Assistant] You've mentioned some of what you were doing at the higher level, dealing with budgets, making presentations, dealing with personnel concerns. Were there other areas that you were involved with now at this management level?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe it's smoothed out a little bit.

[Assistant] I think to some extent that's still a challenge, and it probably will be for a while.

[User] But it really affected me. I lost some good people, the opportunity to get some good people, because of that. I don't know who dreamed all that up and put it into effect, but we had to live with it.

[Assistant] That certainly is a significant challenge, definitely.

[User] And the other challenges that any manager faces, I guess, is getting the resources to do jobs that have been assigned to him, you know, dollars and people. But that's not a unique challenge. I think that comes with any job. At NASA we were fortunate to have congressmen and public opinion that supported us most of the time. You know, you usually felt like the country was behind you and the Congress was behind you and you could get reasonable appropriations without any trouble.\n\n It was not a challenge to get up and come to work every day. I'll say that. I never had a problem coming to work out here. It was always something I looked forward to. Come early and stay late, that was everybody's motto, I think.

[Assistant] It certainly did seem to work that way. And you are, again, fortunate that you were able to enjoy your job that much. A lot of people can't say that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it really affected me. I lost some good people, the opportunity to get some good people, because of that. I don't know who dreamed all that up and put it into effect, but we had to live with it.

[Assistant] That certainly is a significant challenge, definitely.

[User] And the other challenges that any manager faces, I guess, is getting the resources to do jobs that have been assigned to him, you know, dollars and people. But that's not a unique challenge. I think that comes with any job. At NASA we were fortunate to have congressmen and public opinion that supported us most of the time. You know, you usually felt like the country was behind you and the Congress was behind you and you could get reasonable appropriations without any trouble.\n\n It was not a challenge to get up and come to work every day. I'll say that. I never had a problem coming to work out here. It was always something I looked forward to. Come early and stay late, that was everybody's motto, I think.

[Assistant] It certainly did seem to work that way. And you are, again, fortunate that you were able to enjoy your job that much. A lot of people can't say that.

[User] That's true. I am. I'm very lucky from that standpoint, having that opportunity.

[Assistant] Most of us feel the same way about our job. We're pretty fortunate to be able to talk to folks like you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the other challenges that any manager faces, I guess, is getting the resources to do jobs that have been assigned to him, you know, dollars and people. But that's not a unique challenge. I think that comes with any job. At NASA we were fortunate to have congressmen and public opinion that supported us most of the time. You know, you usually felt like the country was behind you and the Congress was behind you and you could get reasonable appropriations without any trouble.\n\n It was not a challenge to get up and come to work every day. I'll say that. I never had a problem coming to work out here. It was always something I looked forward to. Come early and stay late, that was everybody's motto, I think.

[Assistant] It certainly did seem to work that way. And you are, again, fortunate that you were able to enjoy your job that much. A lot of people can't say that.

[User] That's true. I am. I'm very lucky from that standpoint, having that opportunity.

[Assistant] Most of us feel the same way about our job. We're pretty fortunate to be able to talk to folks like you.

[User] Well, that's good.

[Assistant]
Well, before we finish, I'd like to ask Sandra and Kirk if they have any questions that they'd like to follow up with.

Sir, I have a couple. You said that when you first got there you worked with a lot of the crews, the astronauts, on controls and displays. Out of curiosity, what was it like working with the astronauts. Was there some that were easy to work with, some that weren't? And what kind of situations, if you can remember, were changed because of astronaut input?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's the whole point.

[Assistant] Just for clarification, the John Young swizzle stick you were talking about, was that Apollo or Shuttle?

[User] That was Apollo, in the command module. He may have had something similar to that in Gemini. I'm not sure. But I know it was in Apollo, and he might have used that in the Shuttle, too. I'd have to dig into that a little bit, but he was a swizzle stick guy. Have you been able to corner John and get him to come up?

[Assistant] Not yet, unfortunately.

[User] He would be a good one.

[Assistant] He would be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was Apollo, in the command module. He may have had something similar to that in Gemini. I'm not sure. But I know it was in Apollo, and he might have used that in the Shuttle, too. I'd have to dig into that a little bit, but he was a swizzle stick guy. Have you been able to corner John and get him to come up?

[Assistant] Not yet, unfortunately.

[User] He would be a good one.

[Assistant] He would be.

[User] He'd have you in tears.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. We're hoping we get a chance to talk to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He would be a good one.

[Assistant] He would be.

[User] He'd have you in tears.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. We're hoping we get a chance to talk to him.

[User] Good.

[Assistant]
I have nothing [unclear].

Okay. Sandra?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Perner] Is there anything that you'd like to mention that we haven't touched on yet that you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He'd have you in tears.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. We're hoping we get a chance to talk to him.

[User] Good.

[Assistant]
I have nothing [unclear].

Okay. Sandra?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Perner] Is there anything that you'd like to mention that we haven't touched on yet that you can think of?

[User] Gosh, I've already said more than I thought I'd ever be able to pull out. I can't think of anything offhand. I appreciate the opportunity to dig back into the past and contribute to what you're doing. I hope it's successful, and I really do hope somebody will publish a book or something that we can pick up and read. I'd really like to hear what the other guys can remember.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Well, we certainly hope that we can, and we certainly appreciate you coming in and sharing your experiences with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good.

[Assistant]
I have nothing [unclear].

Okay. Sandra?\n\n [Addressing Mr. Perner] Is there anything that you'd like to mention that we haven't touched on yet that you can think of?

[User] Gosh, I've already said more than I thought I'd ever be able to pull out. I can't think of anything offhand. I appreciate the opportunity to dig back into the past and contribute to what you're doing. I hope it's successful, and I really do hope somebody will publish a book or something that we can pick up and read. I'd really like to hear what the other guys can remember.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Well, we certainly hope that we can, and we certainly appreciate you coming in and sharing your experiences with us.

[User] You're very welcome.

[Assistant] It's been very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And can you tell us why you joined the Peace Corps?

[User] I had wanted to join Peace Corps as a kid as far back as I could, as soon as I'd heard about it as a kid, I suppose. And it took me until age 35 to actually do it.

[Assistant] That's unusual for people to join at 35. What allowed you to do it at that time?

[User] It was, uh, it was a kind of a do or die. I was in a relationship with someone that had just ended. And that was about, I knew I didn't want to have kids and settle down. So I said, well, I'd better do it now. It took about a year for the forms to sit on my desk. Back then, everything was still paper. So but after that year, I got the forms out. I actually signed up.

[Assistant] And what did your friends think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had wanted to join Peace Corps as a kid as far back as I could, as soon as I'd heard about it as a kid, I suppose. And it took me until age 35 to actually do it.

[Assistant] That's unusual for people to join at 35. What allowed you to do it at that time?

[User] It was, uh, it was a kind of a do or die. I was in a relationship with someone that had just ended. And that was about, I knew I didn't want to have kids and settle down. So I said, well, I'd better do it now. It took about a year for the forms to sit on my desk. Back then, everything was still paper. So but after that year, I got the forms out. I actually signed up.

[Assistant] And what did your friends think?

[User] I remember one friend asking me, aren't you a little old for that? And he was right. He was. He didn't mean anything in insulting about it. But and I said, sure, but you are most welcome to join, especially when you have some professional experience. So and it just seemed perfect for me. It was perfect timing, at least for my life.

[Assistant] Great. And how about your parents?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dad was still. My mother had died ten years before. And my dad made the requisite jokes about Africa, you know, just being kind of small minded about it. But at the same time, he's actually a very open-minded person and probably would have enjoyed doing the same thing himself.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But, yeah, he seemed pretty cool with it.

[Assistant] Cool.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you end up with Ghana as an assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, yeah, he seemed pretty cool with it.

[Assistant] Cool.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you end up with Ghana as an assignment?

[User] They had given me a choice of South Africa, Ghana, or I don't remember where else, but it came down to those two countries and Ghana sounded a little more peaceful and pastoral to me. So I said Ghana.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And when you got accepted and found out you were going to Ghana, how long did it take before you actually started training, got going? How did you handle all your? Because at 35, usually you have more possessions and things like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did you end up with Ghana as an assignment?

[User] They had given me a choice of South Africa, Ghana, or I don't remember where else, but it came down to those two countries and Ghana sounded a little more peaceful and pastoral to me. So I said Ghana.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And when you got accepted and found out you were going to Ghana, how long did it take before you actually started training, got going? How did you handle all your? Because at 35, usually you have more possessions and things like that.

[User] Mm hmm, yeah.

[Assistant] How did you handle all the prep period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The prep was a little daunting. You know, it was bureaucratic. But the, uh, my life was pretty simple. I lived in a tiny apartment and I didn't have much stuff and it was my sister's building. So I was able to put what I had in the basement, which was great. I didn't have a car at the time, so it was a pretty simple existence, which was great. But the paperwork was almost complicated because if you have any health history, you have to really tell it like a long story. All the details. And if you've ever been to a therapist, you have to prove to them that you're not insane.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I remember, look, I had to go back to a therapist I had seen and asked her to sort of verify my sanity. And she thought it was the silliest thing that she had to actually, you know, that she had to sign off on something like that given the number of people who've been to therapy, you know. And so that was kind of funny. But it was fine. It was, I realized, I had worked for the government years before, and I realized it was just a bureaucratic process that I had to go through.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So it was, it ended up being fine. And the funny thing is, is once you're in Peace Corps and you meet some people who would have benefited from therapy but did not get it, that's when it becomes really ironic and kind of. But anyway, that was the only, that was the only difficulty.

[Assistant] Where did you go for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I remember, look, I had to go back to a therapist I had seen and asked her to sort of verify my sanity. And she thought it was the silliest thing that she had to actually, you know, that she had to sign off on something like that given the number of people who've been to therapy, you know. And so that was kind of funny. But it was fine. It was, I realized, I had worked for the government years before, and I realized it was just a bureaucratic process that I had to go through.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So it was, it ended up being fine. And the funny thing is, is once you're in Peace Corps and you meet some people who would have benefited from therapy but did not get it, that's when it becomes really ironic and kind of. But anyway, that was the only, that was the only difficulty.

[Assistant] Where did you go for training?

[User] We went to our host. We went to a village in our host country. So we lived with a family in a village in the western part of Ghana. We lived, I remember when I was preparing to go, I thought I should bring some gifts from America to my host family. And I thought, oh, refrigerator magnets might be nice, and wind chimes. And well, I got the wind chimes right. But there were no refrigerators because there was no electricity and at least in this village. And Ghana at the time in 2000 had been just about half electrified. So in the village where I was, there was no electricity so. They were appreciative, of course, but no refrigerator to put that on.

[Assistant] How big was your training class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was, it ended up being fine. And the funny thing is, is once you're in Peace Corps and you meet some people who would have benefited from therapy but did not get it, that's when it becomes really ironic and kind of. But anyway, that was the only, that was the only difficulty.

[Assistant] Where did you go for training?

[User] We went to our host. We went to a village in our host country. So we lived with a family in a village in the western part of Ghana. We lived, I remember when I was preparing to go, I thought I should bring some gifts from America to my host family. And I thought, oh, refrigerator magnets might be nice, and wind chimes. And well, I got the wind chimes right. But there were no refrigerators because there was no electricity and at least in this village. And Ghana at the time in 2000 had been just about half electrified. So in the village where I was, there was no electricity so. They were appreciative, of course, but no refrigerator to put that on.

[Assistant] How big was your training class?

[User] There were 45 people in training. And then we were placed in adjoining villages and I was in one of the really small villages, which was wonderful. And there were two other volunteers in my village, sort of walking distance. So we got to hang out on weekends, which during training is important.

[Assistant] And how did they decide how to assign you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to our host. We went to a village in our host country. So we lived with a family in a village in the western part of Ghana. We lived, I remember when I was preparing to go, I thought I should bring some gifts from America to my host family. And I thought, oh, refrigerator magnets might be nice, and wind chimes. And well, I got the wind chimes right. But there were no refrigerators because there was no electricity and at least in this village. And Ghana at the time in 2000 had been just about half electrified. So in the village where I was, there was no electricity so. They were appreciative, of course, but no refrigerator to put that on.

[Assistant] How big was your training class?

[User] There were 45 people in training. And then we were placed in adjoining villages and I was in one of the really small villages, which was wonderful. And there were two other volunteers in my village, sort of walking distance. So we got to hang out on weekends, which during training is important.

[Assistant] And how did they decide how to assign you?

[User] They, I had a background teaching teachers how to use computer software and build web pages. And they thought, OK, well you'll do that and you'll also teach math. And I said, you don't want me teaching math. I'm good with GUIs, I'm good with WYSIWYG, but I'm not good with math. So it was very funny that they had me teaching math, which I learned when I got there, and I panicked and I explained to them that that wouldn't work out and they were just like, fine, you'll still teach computer skills. And I was like, OK, we're good here.

[Assistant] And did you teach the students directly or did you teach the teachers to teach the students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were 45 people in training. And then we were placed in adjoining villages and I was in one of the really small villages, which was wonderful. And there were two other volunteers in my village, sort of walking distance. So we got to hang out on weekends, which during training is important.

[Assistant] And how did they decide how to assign you?

[User] They, I had a background teaching teachers how to use computer software and build web pages. And they thought, OK, well you'll do that and you'll also teach math. And I said, you don't want me teaching math. I'm good with GUIs, I'm good with WYSIWYG, but I'm not good with math. So it was very funny that they had me teaching math, which I learned when I got there, and I panicked and I explained to them that that wouldn't work out and they were just like, fine, you'll still teach computer skills. And I was like, OK, we're good here.

[Assistant] And did you teach the students directly or did you teach the teachers to teach the students?

[User] I taught the students, yeah.

[Assistant] So you had your own classes and things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, I had a background teaching teachers how to use computer software and build web pages. And they thought, OK, well you'll do that and you'll also teach math. And I said, you don't want me teaching math. I'm good with GUIs, I'm good with WYSIWYG, but I'm not good with math. So it was very funny that they had me teaching math, which I learned when I got there, and I panicked and I explained to them that that wouldn't work out and they were just like, fine, you'll still teach computer skills. And I was like, OK, we're good here.

[Assistant] And did you teach the students directly or did you teach the teachers to teach the students?

[User] I taught the students, yeah.

[Assistant] So you had your own classes and things like that?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. What was training like? What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. What was training like? What did you do?

[User] Training was thorough and rigorous and somewhat difficult, but really great. I mean, we learned everything. We had cultural training from host country nationals. We had language training. Excellent language training.

[Assistant] What language?

[User] The local language, the country language was Twi, T-W-I. And even though most people spoke English, pretty much everybody who had been past maybe high school spoke English, but we were taught Twi and some other local languages. The town where I was, I was assigned in the capital city, Accra, where there were three languages, but they decided on Twi because that's pretty much the main country language. Yeah.

[Assistant] And how did you spend your days in training? Like you lived with a family in the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was thorough and rigorous and somewhat difficult, but really great. I mean, we learned everything. We had cultural training from host country nationals. We had language training. Excellent language training.

[Assistant] What language?

[User] The local language, the country language was Twi, T-W-I. And even though most people spoke English, pretty much everybody who had been past maybe high school spoke English, but we were taught Twi and some other local languages. The town where I was, I was assigned in the capital city, Accra, where there were three languages, but they decided on Twi because that's pretty much the main country language. Yeah.

[Assistant] And how did you spend your days in training? Like you lived with a family in the village?

[User] Yes. Yeah, it was a compound house, which is what most houses are like in Ghana. It was a compound house is a group of small dwellings arranged in a circle with sort of a paved courtyard in the center and the well in the center. And so it's very much a family, very kind of intimate setting. And I had my own room and, um. The funny thing is, is that everyone had a radio and the radio played day and night, all night, and I had trouble sleeping. And so I had to ask them to at least turn it down at nighttime. And instead of turning it down, I don't know if it was a language barrier or what, but they would turn it off the minute I walked into the courtyard, and that was kind of embarrassing. And I wanted to say, guys, you really don't have to turn it off. Just down at sleep time. But it wasn't, it just was something you did. You left the radio on at night.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was your family like?