[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I've got two heroes in my career. One is Wernher von Braun, because his blinding genius got us to the moon. And Cousteau, he's my other hero. [John F.] Kennedy, [Jr.,] of course, was important to lunar flight, too, because it was his charisma that got the nation behind the idea, but von Braun has my vote in space and Cousteau has it in the ocean.

[Assistant] What did you find most admirable about those two men?

[User] Those two men? Well, it was von Braun's intellect, but he had a charisma, too, that was marvelous. Cousteau, because of the work he did in an area that wasn't nearly as glorified as space was, but where von Braun had charisma, Cousteau had magic, and both have their value.

[Assistant] An interesting perspective. What do you feel was your most successful time in your career?

[User] … I have difficulty separating or delineating or evaluating separately the pleasure … I feel [in retrospect] at having been a part of the space program and been a part of the underwater program and having raised a bunch of good kids. They're all important to me.

[Assistant] That’s terrific. Do you think that there's anything in the space program history that's missing? Do you think there are any stories that haven't been told or things that should be known that aren't yet known?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Those two men? Well, it was von Braun's intellect, but he had a charisma, too, that was marvelous. Cousteau, because of the work he did in an area that wasn't nearly as glorified as space was, but where von Braun had charisma, Cousteau had magic, and both have their value.

[Assistant] An interesting perspective. What do you feel was your most successful time in your career?

[User] … I have difficulty separating or delineating or evaluating separately the pleasure … I feel [in retrospect] at having been a part of the space program and been a part of the underwater program and having raised a bunch of good kids. They're all important to me.

[Assistant] That’s terrific. Do you think that there's anything in the space program history that's missing? Do you think there are any stories that haven't been told or things that should be known that aren't yet known?

[User] There are at least a hundred thousand.

[Assistant] Can you share some of them with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] … I have difficulty separating or delineating or evaluating separately the pleasure … I feel [in retrospect] at having been a part of the space program and been a part of the underwater program and having raised a bunch of good kids. They're all important to me.

[Assistant] That’s terrific. Do you think that there's anything in the space program history that's missing? Do you think there are any stories that haven't been told or things that should be known that aren't yet known?

[User] There are at least a hundred thousand.

[Assistant] Can you share some of them with us?

[User] I wouldn't know where to begin, but there are a lot of funny stories to tell. There are also stories of mistakes, tragedy, and despair. You know, men simply are not above error, and we've made some terrible errors, but we've made some marvelous decisions and discoveries. We've had a lot of fun doing it all, but not without some mistakes, some costly ones, but I consider myself fortunate to have been around to see it all.

[Assistant] You're truly a pioneer in that respect.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are at least a hundred thousand.

[Assistant] Can you share some of them with us?

[User] I wouldn't know where to begin, but there are a lot of funny stories to tell. There are also stories of mistakes, tragedy, and despair. You know, men simply are not above error, and we've made some terrible errors, but we've made some marvelous decisions and discoveries. We've had a lot of fun doing it all, but not without some mistakes, some costly ones, but I consider myself fortunate to have been around to see it all.

[Assistant] You're truly a pioneer in that respect.

[User] It's been fun.

[Assistant] Can you share any stories with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was funny. It was funny, yes.

[Assistant] STS-87, I think, was your first time that you worked as a flight director?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] November of ’97?

[User] I’m sure there were a couple of flights before that that I did on-the-job training. But STS-87 was the first time I was ever actually on console as a fully certified flight director.

[Assistant] Your name listed as such?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] November of ’97?

[User] I’m sure there were a couple of flights before that that I did on-the-job training. But STS-87 was the first time I was ever actually on console as a fully certified flight director.

[Assistant] Your name listed as such?

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] What are some of your memories of being in that position for real that I guess ‘never’ had finally arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I always wanted to join the Peace Corps, but one thing led to another. I finished my one degree and then my husband and I went off and got more degrees and kids and parents that fell apart. And, yeah, one thing led to another. And it really became a good opportunity after I ran for office. I was on city council and mayor for two terms. And I thought, you know what? I've done my two terms and I'm in great health. And my husband was at a place where he could do it. So we threw our hats in the ring and we decided to apply to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And why had you wanted to do it from the beginning?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] What was intriguing about it?

[User] Well, I had taken Spanish all the way since I was in the sixth grade. I grew up in California, and I've always been intrigued by living and working in another country, and particularly in the Latin American culture. And I've lived a life of service. And so for me, it was another, another form of service. And I had done a lot of community development domestically in my own community, and I was eager to learn how that might be living in another, in another country.

[Assistant] That's great. And I understand your husband was in the Peace Corps at the same time, right? So you both went.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] What was intriguing about it?

[User] Well, I had taken Spanish all the way since I was in the sixth grade. I grew up in California, and I've always been intrigued by living and working in another country, and particularly in the Latin American culture. And I've lived a life of service. And so for me, it was another, another form of service. And I had done a lot of community development domestically in my own community, and I was eager to learn how that might be living in another, in another country.

[Assistant] That's great. And I understand your husband was in the Peace Corps at the same time, right? So you both went.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And he has a separate interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had taken Spanish all the way since I was in the sixth grade. I grew up in California, and I've always been intrigued by living and working in another country, and particularly in the Latin American culture. And I've lived a life of service. And so for me, it was another, another form of service. And I had done a lot of community development domestically in my own community, and I was eager to learn how that might be living in another, in another country.

[Assistant] That's great. And I understand your husband was in the Peace Corps at the same time, right? So you both went.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And he has a separate interview.

[User] He certainly does.

[Assistant] And it's just fascinating because I've done other, I've interviewed married couples and it's as if they were in different places with totally different experiences. So it's good to do them, do them separately. So tell us, tell me a little bit about your background. You grew up in California and what kind of a community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He certainly does.

[Assistant] And it's just fascinating because I've done other, I've interviewed married couples and it's as if they were in different places with totally different experiences. So it's good to do them, do them separately. So tell us, tell me a little bit about your background. You grew up in California and what kind of a community?

[User] I grew up in Berkeley, California. My parents settled in the Bay Area, but neither one was from the Bay Area. I went through the Berkeley schools. I went to the University of California at Berkeley. I, um, decided to go on into community or public health nutrition. Left California, went off to grad school in Tennessee, and came back. And I did some work in nutrition, but ended up going more into the health care world. I got an MBA after I got my master's in nutrition at Tennessee and worked most of my career in the health care administration end of things. Kaiser Permanente. I also worked for, I was the head of the Health Services Division for the County of Marin.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Did some work on my own for seven years as a consultant and then ran an agency not really in health care, but in matching caregivers with low income, disabled and elderly who were on the Medicaid program. And it was at that point, at the end of my time of that and my two terms as a council member, that I went into the Peace Corps. So really a pretty much a life of health and human services and community service.

[Assistant] So I usually ask how parents reacted to it, but I will ask, how did your children react to you going into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Officially I heard in the third week of July and we were to stage in the third week of September. And I was the director of an agency and I had, um, my board chair kept saying, well, can we start recruiting for your job? And I said, well, I'd kind of like to know that my seat's empty before you do that. So that was a little, a little hard. But, you know, we kind of did as much as we could to get ready and, you know, our house and all that. And we left. But yeah, it was, I think probably a little longer process because we did apply quite a bit earlier. Because by the time we tried to apply for the October things, most of them were already filled, so we just applied.

[Assistant] So you had to wait for the January. Do you think you had more medical screening because you are older?

[User] No, I think there was one. I think my doctor almost did too much screening like on the blood work. And so some of the blood work that came out, she did every. I'm a Kaiser member. And they are very good about what they, you know, they're, they don't slight much. And so I think it was just this whole process of communicating with Washington and trying to put it ways that the Washington staff could understand what. Anyway, it was, it was really an act of diplomacy not to get kind of fried, you know, with the whole process.

[Assistant] Which was probably part of the test.

[User] Which was part of the, part of the process. But yeah, and it ended up being all, all fine. And you know, the only issue I had in Guatemala was I had a basal cell on my lower eyelid that was discovered by an excellent ophthalmologist and I ended up coming home for four weeks halfway through my service to have it removed because there wasn't, the procedure wasn't available in Guatemala. But that was very quick and came home and right back. So I really didn't have any medical issues.

[Assistant] Good. Excellent. Where was your staging?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we staged in Houston. We met up in Houston and very brief. Came in one day, had a brief orientation from our country officer from D.C. And then we took off at 3:00 in the morning, we all got up and we got on a plane and went to Guatemala. So all of our training.

[Assistant] Direct flight?

[User] Yeah. And all of our training was in.

[Assistant] In country.

[User] In country, yes.

[Assistant] Let me, I forgot to ask. Did you ask for Guatemala?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In country, yes.

[Assistant] Let me, I forgot to ask. Did you ask for Guatemala?

[User] So in our period of time to apply, we were allowed to put down three, if we chose, three different countries. So we put Peru and Guatemala, which we had both visited, and the third Paraguay, because my husband's a biologist and there were some jobs there that would have been up his alley. But quite frankly, I was really aiming for the first two because of potential of being in a cooler climate and also because of the strong indigenous culture. And I am, um, I'm not a weaver, but I am a textile-phile. I love textiles so I was really hoping. So and we'd been to Guatemala. I had a staff person who was from Guatemala. And so we'd been, we had a love for the country. So it was.

[Assistant] Sounds perfect.

[User] And they told us right away in January, you know, this is what we're thinking. And I also think because Guatemala had some security issues, I think the fact that we were older volunteers, um, that would probably be more likely to follow the rules and not do sort of challenging things may have also been why. So I don't know.

[Assistant] We can talk about the rules in a, in a, I guess is it a conflict area? That's not conflict but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they told us right away in January, you know, this is what we're thinking. And I also think because Guatemala had some security issues, I think the fact that we were older volunteers, um, that would probably be more likely to follow the rules and not do sort of challenging things may have also been why. So I don't know.

[Assistant] We can talk about the rules in a, in a, I guess is it a conflict area? That's not conflict but.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Insecurity.

[User] Security, I think security issues.

[Assistant] Security issues in Guatemala.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Insecurity.

[User] Security, I think security issues.

[Assistant] Security issues in Guatemala.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you got to Guatemala and where was the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Security, I think security issues.

[Assistant] Security issues in Guatemala.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you got to Guatemala and where was the training?

[User] So the offices for the Peace Corps in Guatemala are in, um, Santa Lucía Milpas Altas, which is outside of Antigua. Antigua, Guatemala. And they have a wonderful offices there and facilities. So most of our training was ten weeks. And most of our training, um, the basic kind of training was in the offices which were really lovely and great setting. There were two programs. I was in Healthy Schools and the other program was Youth and Development, which is a Peace Corps program. So for our actual program training, we did that in our communities. And so my husband and I lived in different communities because we were in the two different programs and that's where we had our program training, and that was also where we had our language. So language and culture was about three days a week. We stayed in community. We were divided up by our level of Spanish. And then we had a Guatemalan Peace Corps staff person who worked with us.

[Assistant] So the initial ten week training, what was, what was included in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you got to Guatemala and where was the training?

[User] So the offices for the Peace Corps in Guatemala are in, um, Santa Lucía Milpas Altas, which is outside of Antigua. Antigua, Guatemala. And they have a wonderful offices there and facilities. So most of our training was ten weeks. And most of our training, um, the basic kind of training was in the offices which were really lovely and great setting. There were two programs. I was in Healthy Schools and the other program was Youth and Development, which is a Peace Corps program. So for our actual program training, we did that in our communities. And so my husband and I lived in different communities because we were in the two different programs and that's where we had our program training, and that was also where we had our language. So language and culture was about three days a week. We stayed in community. We were divided up by our level of Spanish. And then we had a Guatemalan Peace Corps staff person who worked with us.

[Assistant] So the initial ten week training, what was, what was included in that?

[User] Well, there were basic things that are required by Peace Corps. Everything from safety, security, medical, health, some development training around sustainable development. And the philosophy behind that. A lot around avoiding sexual abuse, a lot of very basic kinds of training that everybody had to have. And then the rest of it, when we were in our communities and then in our case, working with the schools in our community, that was more specific to the actual program.

[Assistant] So you had ten weeks and then you had basically two months, I guess a month and a half or something like that, afterwards in the communities in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were basic things that are required by Peace Corps. Everything from safety, security, medical, health, some development training around sustainable development. And the philosophy behind that. A lot around avoiding sexual abuse, a lot of very basic kinds of training that everybody had to have. And then the rest of it, when we were in our communities and then in our case, working with the schools in our community, that was more specific to the actual program.

[Assistant] So you had ten weeks and then you had basically two months, I guess a month and a half or something like that, afterwards in the communities in training?

[User] No, no, no. So actually what the way, the way they arrange it is they do the basic training in the offices of Peace Corps. But then our communities where we were living, we were living with families. That is where we would have like we would rotate houses. So maybe there were three of us in our language group. So we would go to my house one day and my host mom would host us and so we would be in the homes. So those were our classrooms where really for the language. And then the program training, some of it happened in the office, but we were like in the case of YAD, they were working in middle schools in my husband's, in the communities where my husband's team was. So it was ten weeks inclusive of the Peace Corps required training and the program training and the language training. So and so you, there were days where I'd get to see my husband because we would be coming into the offices, and there days where we would be in our respective.

[Assistant] When you were in the community training, it wasn't that far from the Peace Corps offices.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you could come in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. So actually what the way, the way they arrange it is they do the basic training in the offices of Peace Corps. But then our communities where we were living, we were living with families. That is where we would have like we would rotate houses. So maybe there were three of us in our language group. So we would go to my house one day and my host mom would host us and so we would be in the homes. So those were our classrooms where really for the language. And then the program training, some of it happened in the office, but we were like in the case of YAD, they were working in middle schools in my husband's, in the communities where my husband's team was. So it was ten weeks inclusive of the Peace Corps required training and the program training and the language training. So and so you, there were days where I'd get to see my husband because we would be coming into the offices, and there days where we would be in our respective.

[Assistant] When you were in the community training, it wasn't that far from the Peace Corps offices.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you could come in.

[User] By bus. By bus, yes. Right. Yeah. So we were all.

[Assistant] What town were you in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you could come in.

[User] By bus. By bus, yes. Right. Yeah. So we were all.

[Assistant] What town were you in?

[User] So I was in a town called Pastores, but an area called Barrio La Cruz. And I lived up on top of a hill in a very kind of tight. It seemed like a barrio, but it was kind of a tight little community with a great view of Volcan Agua, which is one of the beautiful volcanoes right near the city of Antigua, Guatemala. And I lived with a woman and her three children, and her husband was in the States working, and her youngest daughter had never met her dad. And I really enjoyed being with this family. They, you know, made me feel warm, clearly, you know, I was immersed in Spanish.

[Assistant] Was your Spanish good enough for communication at that point? Oh, you had studied Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By bus. By bus, yes. Right. Yeah. So we were all.

[Assistant] What town were you in?

[User] So I was in a town called Pastores, but an area called Barrio La Cruz. And I lived up on top of a hill in a very kind of tight. It seemed like a barrio, but it was kind of a tight little community with a great view of Volcan Agua, which is one of the beautiful volcanoes right near the city of Antigua, Guatemala. And I lived with a woman and her three children, and her husband was in the States working, and her youngest daughter had never met her dad. And I really enjoyed being with this family. They, you know, made me feel warm, clearly, you know, I was immersed in Spanish.

[Assistant] Was your Spanish good enough for communication at that point? Oh, you had studied Spanish.

[User] Yeah, because I had come with Spanish. But the woman I was living with was from Guatemala City and talked pretty fast and giggled a lot. And so sometimes I didn't always understand her, but I know now that I picked up a lot of things from her, you know, I mean, just the way, the way she said things and, um, but yeah. And then of course, with the kids and, you know, and meeting the relatives and going to some of the events like the weddings and the, you know, the birthday parties.

[Assistant] Were you the first volunteer to live with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because I had come with Spanish. But the woman I was living with was from Guatemala City and talked pretty fast and giggled a lot. And so sometimes I didn't always understand her, but I know now that I picked up a lot of things from her, you know, I mean, just the way, the way she said things and, um, but yeah. And then of course, with the kids and, you know, and meeting the relatives and going to some of the events like the weddings and the, you know, the birthday parties.

[Assistant] Were you the first volunteer to live with her?

[User] No. She had had a 22 year old young man who was before me, who was a really nice guy. I ended up meeting him. And so, I mean, I was obviously kind of at the whole other end of the spectrum, right? You know, and she was in her fifties. And here I come along, you know, a woman in her sixties, but we got along so great and the kids would laugh because after dinner, we'd be sitting there talking and laughing. And her son, one of the quiet ones, would walk by just kind of shaking his head at the two of us, you know? But I think that she enjoyed, you know, having a companion and I enjoyed it as well.

[Assistant] And then you got to meet the other host families as well, I guess, since you switched off?

[User] Yes, exactly. So each, so you got a feel for the other families and what they were like. And but we were all, but they were all in that Barrio La Cruz, which was a little less ritzy than the Pastores, the people that were down below in the main town, I think was a little, you know. And not to say that our homes weren't OK, they were, but it wasn't quite, it was pretty basic.

[Assistant] What kind of home was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. She had had a 22 year old young man who was before me, who was a really nice guy. I ended up meeting him. And so, I mean, I was obviously kind of at the whole other end of the spectrum, right? You know, and she was in her fifties. And here I come along, you know, a woman in her sixties, but we got along so great and the kids would laugh because after dinner, we'd be sitting there talking and laughing. And her son, one of the quiet ones, would walk by just kind of shaking his head at the two of us, you know? But I think that she enjoyed, you know, having a companion and I enjoyed it as well.

[Assistant] And then you got to meet the other host families as well, I guess, since you switched off?

[User] Yes, exactly. So each, so you got a feel for the other families and what they were like. And but we were all, but they were all in that Barrio La Cruz, which was a little less ritzy than the Pastores, the people that were down below in the main town, I think was a little, you know. And not to say that our homes weren't OK, they were, but it wasn't quite, it was pretty basic.

[Assistant] What kind of home was it?

[User] Well, I mean, I think that my, that my host mom and her kids were probably living in maybe one or two rooms and were giving up one of their bedrooms for me. So I had the bedroom upstairs and then we all shared a bathroom and a shower. And it was very tight, you know, just like a little courtyard where Annabella would dry the clothes. And if we had rain, she would be up at 3:00 in the morning pulling all the clothes down. Very, very modest.

[Assistant] Indoor plumbing and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, exactly. So each, so you got a feel for the other families and what they were like. And but we were all, but they were all in that Barrio La Cruz, which was a little less ritzy than the Pastores, the people that were down below in the main town, I think was a little, you know. And not to say that our homes weren't OK, they were, but it wasn't quite, it was pretty basic.

[Assistant] What kind of home was it?

[User] Well, I mean, I think that my, that my host mom and her kids were probably living in maybe one or two rooms and were giving up one of their bedrooms for me. So I had the bedroom upstairs and then we all shared a bathroom and a shower. And it was very tight, you know, just like a little courtyard where Annabella would dry the clothes. And if we had rain, she would be up at 3:00 in the morning pulling all the clothes down. Very, very modest.

[Assistant] Indoor plumbing and?

[User] Oh, yeah. No, no. We had, I mean, the bathroom was outside, but it was enclosed and, um, wash the dishes in a, you know, in what we call a pila, which is a several basin sink. She had a washer, so that was really nice. So she washed my clothes which was lovely and dried it on the, yeah, on the lines. And I ate my meals, we ate our meals together. Yeah. So it was, you know, other people had, um, everybody had a different situation, you know, some people had their own bathrooms, some people. But it all worked out. I just had to plan around, the boys especially would take long showers and I'd just have to figure out when I could get my shower in and plan it. You know, when no one was around, I'd pop in the shower.

[Assistant] So that worked out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, I think that my, that my host mom and her kids were probably living in maybe one or two rooms and were giving up one of their bedrooms for me. So I had the bedroom upstairs and then we all shared a bathroom and a shower. And it was very tight, you know, just like a little courtyard where Annabella would dry the clothes. And if we had rain, she would be up at 3:00 in the morning pulling all the clothes down. Very, very modest.

[Assistant] Indoor plumbing and?

[User] Oh, yeah. No, no. We had, I mean, the bathroom was outside, but it was enclosed and, um, wash the dishes in a, you know, in what we call a pila, which is a several basin sink. She had a washer, so that was really nice. So she washed my clothes which was lovely and dried it on the, yeah, on the lines. And I ate my meals, we ate our meals together. Yeah. So it was, you know, other people had, um, everybody had a different situation, you know, some people had their own bathrooms, some people. But it all worked out. I just had to plan around, the boys especially would take long showers and I'd just have to figure out when I could get my shower in and plan it. You know, when no one was around, I'd pop in the shower.

[Assistant] So that worked out.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And do you have any thoughts about the training? Was it, did it prepare you for your work? The language training, your technical training, the general orientation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all. We had a really special group of people. There were 20, 28 of us. Six or seven of us were over 50.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Which is very unusual and it was very diverse. We had five or six African Americans. We had maybe four people who were probably, well, three who were, had been born in the States, but they were of Latin American descent. We had only one, one Asian young woman. A little bit diverse in age. We had a few 21 year olds, a few 30. So it was a really nice mix. And no, we all, I think we were very well, you know, the older, you know, the older volunteers, we were really accepted. We were included. It was a very, very inclusive. And to this day, I'm close to a couple of the volunteers and they're, they tend to be actually the younger ones that I'm closer to so.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So after the training, where were you placed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is very unusual and it was very diverse. We had five or six African Americans. We had maybe four people who were probably, well, three who were, had been born in the States, but they were of Latin American descent. We had only one, one Asian young woman. A little bit diverse in age. We had a few 21 year olds, a few 30. So it was a really nice mix. And no, we all, I think we were very well, you know, the older, you know, the older volunteers, we were really accepted. We were included. It was a very, very inclusive. And to this day, I'm close to a couple of the volunteers and they're, they tend to be actually the younger ones that I'm closer to so.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So after the training, where were you placed?

[User] So I think they knew where they were going to send us before we came because they needed a community that needed both programs. So we were sent to a community that was at 10,000 feet. It was at the highest point in the Inter-American Highway in Central America. It was in the western highlands of Guatemala, in a indigenous community of about 4,000. That was the seat of a municipality that had over 100 communities spread out in very remote areas. And luckily we were near the Inter-American Highway, so we were able to take the bus down to the second largest city in the country, called Quetzaltenango, or its Mayan name, Xela. So that was good because it was easier for us to be able to get to a larger city, to do commerce, and also to take the bus or the Peace Corps shuttle to go for medical appointments. And where some of our colleagues were, it was more of a twisty-turny road or perhaps a road that might wash out. So I think we were very lucky.

[Assistant] Is the Inter-American Highway a highway?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So after the training, where were you placed?

[User] So I think they knew where they were going to send us before we came because they needed a community that needed both programs. So we were sent to a community that was at 10,000 feet. It was at the highest point in the Inter-American Highway in Central America. It was in the western highlands of Guatemala, in a indigenous community of about 4,000. That was the seat of a municipality that had over 100 communities spread out in very remote areas. And luckily we were near the Inter-American Highway, so we were able to take the bus down to the second largest city in the country, called Quetzaltenango, or its Mayan name, Xela. So that was good because it was easier for us to be able to get to a larger city, to do commerce, and also to take the bus or the Peace Corps shuttle to go for medical appointments. And where some of our colleagues were, it was more of a twisty-turny road or perhaps a road that might wash out. So I think we were very lucky.

[Assistant] Is the Inter-American Highway a highway?

[User] Yes, it's the Pan-American Highway. Now they call it the Inter-American, but it's the Pan-American Highway that goes all the way through North America, all the way into southern, into South America.

[Assistant] So it is a highway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it's the Pan-American Highway. Now they call it the Inter-American, but it's the Pan-American Highway that goes all the way through North America, all the way into southern, into South America.

[Assistant] So it is a highway.

[User] Yeah, it's a four lane.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Four lane highway. You know, it's commerce. I mean, it's trucks and, yeah, it's a major, it's a major highway. And in actually a pretty good condition, you know, at least the part that we were on. When we were there in 20, um, 2011, it had been after a big storm and they'd had some issues. But in our time there, you know, the road was in pretty good condition.

[Assistant] So the town you were in, what kind of facilities were in the town? How many people lived in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You put them up and you take them down.

[Assistant] Because of the rain?

[User] Because, no, because it was just cold, you know? I mean, not necessarily because the rain. The rain, the rain in Guatemala where we were was half the year was rainy, half the year was not. But just things wouldn't dry. And we had no heat. And there were times when the inside of our.

[Assistant] You say cold, how cold is cold?

[User] Well, you know, our first winter, it was, there was frost. It was down in the thirties, we had pictures that we posted on Facebook of the two of us wearing three or four jackets or hiking boots because we had no heat in our rooms. And so it was, um, we finally got a thermometer when our son visited. We got thermometers for in and out, so we'd kind of know what it was. But, you know, I mean, I remember times when it was in the forties inside, so it was.

[Assistant] It was chilly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, our first winter, it was, there was frost. It was down in the thirties, we had pictures that we posted on Facebook of the two of us wearing three or four jackets or hiking boots because we had no heat in our rooms. And so it was, um, we finally got a thermometer when our son visited. We got thermometers for in and out, so we'd kind of know what it was. But, you know, I mean, I remember times when it was in the forties inside, so it was.

[Assistant] It was chilly.

[User] It was cold, yeah. And we didn't have a burning, like our host family when they built their little kitchen area out, they put in a really nice fireplace, which they cook on and they sit around. And we didn't have any internal source of heat. So, you know, we just kind of.

[Assistant] Had blankets.

[User] Yes. And at night I could hardly roll over. I had so many blankets on me. I'd have to think about whether I wanted to turn from one side to the other. And I had on sweatshirt, nightie, you know, sweatpants. You know, sometimes I had on another sweatshirt over my sweatshirt with a hood. Yeah.

[Assistant] Great. So what is the Healthy Schools project? What is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, and keeping a project going is always a, it's a lift. You need to have someone who's either a teacher or a parent or a community volunteer. So but there was a little bit of, I don't want to say competition, but we did at the end of this last year do a tour. And we, you know, all of the different authorities like the health people and the food security. We all went out into the campo and visited all the gardens and the ones that had really thriving gardens, I mean, clearly had to feel really good about it. And the ones that didn't, either they will decide, you know, maybe gardening is not for us or maybe they'll step it up next year and go out and pick the caterpillars off of their broccoli so that we're not visiting what looks like a lace factory. Which one of our, one of our gardens, the broccoli leaves looked like lace, you know, because of the.

[Assistant] And this is a farming community.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You would think that they would know about doing that.

[User] Yes. Yes. But in this particular case, I think the person who was in charge of that school has other strengths and is more into arts and preserving his culture and his music. And so and, you know, and that's I think it's OK, you know what I mean? I think you, I think in any kind of development work, whether it's international or in your own backyard, you work with people that are motivated. And if people are really interested, then you can help them get where they want to go. I mean, you're kind of a travel agent. It's like, well, where do you want to go? And then working together, shoulder to shoulder, we can get you there, but there's no reason to do a heavy lift. I mean, people have to be ready. And that's, there's no shame in that. Sometimes it's timing too.

[Assistant] What was your role? Was it introducing the idea or, and or did you help manage it, or how did, what do you think your role was in all of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, we were.

[Assistant] You were there during the election.

[User] When Trump was elected. So well, we were in training, and then we went out in community. And we did have people that would say things. And then but, you know, the Guatemalan government is under challenging leadership right now as well. So you kind of say, OK, yes, we have challenges in our country and you have challenges in yours. So together, what might we do right here? And to really bring that focus more to what we can do together rather than being, um. Yeah, so I really didn't, really didn't get a lot of flak about, you know, your president or anything like that. We did hear a lot about people wanting to immigrate, people wanting to leave. Would you take us back in your suitcase? You know, there's, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of challenges, you know.

[Assistant] Were there are lots of people from that community who had come to the States?

[User] Yes. There were a lot of people in the community who had been and come back. And often I didn't ask a lot of questions because I didn't want to put them on the spot. And then there were a couple of cases where there were young people. We may not have known the young people that well, but we knew their parents or their uncles. And them being concerned, you know, that their kids had gone and did they get there safely? And, you know, and that was, that was always a bit of pins and needles about, you know, or hearing that so-and-so wants to go and, you know, you're just worried. I mean, you're worried about their safety and about whether they're going to get there OK but um.

[Assistant] Did the parents want them to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So mostly, well, corn, but a lot of the corn, a lot of that was used in their own homes. And beans. But then they grew to sell some of it even within Central America, because we lived in a cold place. So broccoli and carrots and cabbage and things like that. And then in a community higher than us at 11,000 feet, they were growing potatoes. So a lot of, a lot of potatoes. And then there were these, um, these are the sugar snap peas. And there was in two of the communities, they had a very active co-op. And those communities, I think, are doing quite well because they had this co-op and they had, you know, already arrangements on how to sell their produce. And the trucks would come in and cold.

[Assistant] And they were near the road anyway.

[User] Mm hmm, well, they were, yeah. I mean, dirt roads but yes. And so they had, and they had, you know, many years of experience at that and then they would make a little bit of money on that that they could use, for instance, to help fund a computer lab. So and there were maybe out of my all the communities I worked with, maybe two or three had those ag co-ops, which were really good because they, you know, they would generate some income to be able to use to reinvest in the community. But there were some communities, like the one with the potatoes was a fairly, um, fairly poor, poor community. And a lot of those people would get on the bus that would, and they were a ways from the highway. And they would go down to a town near Quetzaltenango and work in textiles or in selling textiles. So people had to, you know, had to leave the area to get work.

[Assistant] So you mentioned you had, you came back to the United States because of your eye. How did, how was this diagnosed?

[User] So um.

[Assistant] It sounds like pretty good health care.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm, well, they were, yeah. I mean, dirt roads but yes. And so they had, and they had, you know, many years of experience at that and then they would make a little bit of money on that that they could use, for instance, to help fund a computer lab. So and there were maybe out of my all the communities I worked with, maybe two or three had those ag co-ops, which were really good because they, you know, they would generate some income to be able to use to reinvest in the community. But there were some communities, like the one with the potatoes was a fairly, um, fairly poor, poor community. And a lot of those people would get on the bus that would, and they were a ways from the highway. And they would go down to a town near Quetzaltenango and work in textiles or in selling textiles. So people had to, you know, had to leave the area to get work.

[Assistant] So you mentioned you had, you came back to the United States because of your eye. How did, how was this diagnosed?

[User] So um.

[Assistant] It sounds like pretty good health care.

[User] Yes. So I had a dry eye issue when I left the States and then I had, it was irritated more in Guatemala because there's a lot of diesel and a lot of smoke. And then maybe also living at altitude, you know, it's dry. So I was seeing an ophthalmologist that does a lot of work with the Peace Corps and our country.

[Assistant] In the bigger town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So um.

[Assistant] It sounds like pretty good health care.

[User] Yes. So I had a dry eye issue when I left the States and then I had, it was irritated more in Guatemala because there's a lot of diesel and a lot of smoke. And then maybe also living at altitude, you know, it's dry. So I was seeing an ophthalmologist that does a lot of work with the Peace Corps and our country.

[Assistant] In the bigger town?

[User] Actually in Guatemala City.

[Assistant] Oh, in Guatemala City.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually in Guatemala City.

[Assistant] Oh, in Guatemala City.

[User] Yeah. And so our medical director, I was going to one ophthalmologist and that person was giving me like some steroids. And we kind of thought, well, you know, steroids are OK for a short term. But so she says, you know what, let's try this other, let's do another try here. So the physician that I went to see was very, very methodical. And he saw some other things around my eye. But the thing that he worried about most was this little growth. And I didn't really think a lot of it because several years ago in the States I had had one and I had it biopsied and it was just a growth. But he was so, he had to get approval from Washington. And, you know, our doctor got approval and it was biopsied. And sure enough. So I didn't want to leave. I wanted to have the procedure done in Guatemala. But the procedure that is used for basal cells in our country is called Mohs surgery.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And they don't, they don't have that surgery in Guatemala. And so our medical director said, now I know you want to stay, but you need to go home. And so I was able to, I'm a Kaiser member. And even though I wasn't a member, of course, during Peace Corps, I was able to get Kaiser to do it where I'd had another Mohs surgery. And so it all worked out super well. I mean, I got home, I got it done.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps did well on the medical issue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I mean, you can probably tell I'm pretty extroverted and my husband isn't super extroverted, but he kind of is. And so we each, you know, like he had his favorite banana ladies and he worked at a middle school, two middle schools. He worked in the afternoon. So he would be gone all afternoon. I would be gone in the morning, sometimes getting up very early to go on the backs of trucks or whatever to go to my communities. So we really did have some of our own relationships. So, you know, but I think what was good was that we had each other. We had, you know, and when we had health issues or when we had disappointments, I mean, it was nice to be able to have that emotional support. It probably wasn't as good for our Spanish because we were speaking English to each other, whereas our other colleagues, we noticed their Spanish. Some people just really advanced because they were not able to speak English, you know.

But I think for us it was probably a big help even coming back this last six months, I think we may not have. Because we're also coming back to a house. Some of our colleagues, they may not be living. You know, I mean, it's a little harder, but I think having each other was really, I think it was a good thing. And, you know, we'd been married 40 something years, so we weren't a newly married couple. And so I think it was a good experience and I think the community enjoyed that too I think, you know, the couple. And yeah, I think, I think it was a good thing.

[Assistant] Did you interact with other couples?

[User] No, there weren't any other couples.

[Assistant] I didn't mean Peace Corps couples.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] Just couples, as couples or it was always as individuals.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there weren't any other couples.

[Assistant] I didn't mean Peace Corps couples.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] Just couples, as couples or it was always as individuals.

[User] No, we really didn't. Our community was an indigenous community. We didn't really, you know, we weren't real close with our host family. They were not really, I don't think that, I mean, it was more of a relationship of us living there. It wasn't really more than that. But no, we never really, um. I mean, toward the end, one of the, one of the host families for the newer volunteer, we did some things with them. We went to, but no, not, not a whole lot with other couples. And there was only really when we left, I think there was one other younger couple. But no, I mean, we really didn't do a lot of those couples.

[Assistant] So you are a very recent return. You came back December 2018.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] Just couples, as couples or it was always as individuals.

[User] No, we really didn't. Our community was an indigenous community. We didn't really, you know, we weren't real close with our host family. They were not really, I don't think that, I mean, it was more of a relationship of us living there. It wasn't really more than that. But no, we never really, um. I mean, toward the end, one of the, one of the host families for the newer volunteer, we did some things with them. We went to, but no, not, not a whole lot with other couples. And there was only really when we left, I think there was one other younger couple. But no, I mean, we really didn't do a lot of those couples.

[Assistant] So you are a very recent return. You came back December 2018.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So really, it is six months just like that. What was your reaction coming back, was it hard? You said you went back to your house and all of that, but was there a reentry process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I think that helped too, because people could tell. They'd come up to us. And I'd always wear a huipil when I gave the talk, you know, which is the blouse from Guatemala. And, you know, people are kind of, well, I could see that you really. So I think that was a way of kind of dealing with some of that adjustment, trying to stay, you know, a little bit connected.

[Assistant] Are you going to continue doing these, these talks?

[User] Um, yes. You know, we have had a request from two other Rotary groups. Um, another library. Yeah. I think we'll continue to do the talks. Yes, definitely.

[Assistant] And what are people's reaction to that, to the variations that you've talked about? Is there interest or just polite interest or?

[User]
No, I think they're, I think they're fascinated. I think, um, I think a lot of people had have no idea, partly because they want to know how you lived. And then you say, well, how we lived is very much how, I mean, it was probably better than how a lot of people live. And I think, I think it just, people were really fascinated to see this whole other world and the beauty of it, the culture. I mean, we're living in, people still wear their native clothing, you know. And sometimes you get returned Peace Corps volunteers that come and many of them served a long time ago. Or some of them, like we got a woman that came who now I'm friends with, who was also older and served later and just served a few years ago. So it's been good. It's kind of brought different people kind of out of the woodwork, you know, by doing these and creating new, new relationships.

And I think I've sparked a lot of interest. And, you know, I was really active in Guatemala because a lot of our older volunteers left. And so I was a little bit of an activist about it and we ended up doing a survey. They didn't end up doing it till after I left.

[Assistant] They left before the end of the project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but we're, you know, but I don't even, I mean, it is mentoring, but I feel like it's more we're friends. We're colleagues. She trusts me. I trust her. You know, I mean, we could talk about, gee, how is it coming back? You know, you could talk about, did you hear this person ask me how my trip was, you know, that trip. So I think it creates, you know, those kind of bonds. And I think. You know, I've really enjoyed being around, you know, diversity of ages and backgrounds. I mean, everybody that comes into Peace Corps, whether you're 60 or 25, you all come with a different life experience and you've never been a volunteer before.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So you're all trying to figure out, here I am, what do I do? That's an equalizer. You know, when you get in there, an older person might have a little more, maybe a little more life experience. But even then, I mean, we had some volunteers, older volunteers, and they weren't chill. I mean, you know, I mean.

[Assistant] Why did they leave? Not to ask a personal question, but were there any systemic issues in why they left?

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] Or was it all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you're all trying to figure out, here I am, what do I do? That's an equalizer. You know, when you get in there, an older person might have a little more, maybe a little more life experience. But even then, I mean, we had some volunteers, older volunteers, and they weren't chill. I mean, you know, I mean.

[Assistant] Why did they leave? Not to ask a personal question, but were there any systemic issues in why they left?

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] Or was it all?

[User] I don't know, because we had.

[Assistant] Kind of things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. But he, you know, I mean, that was his vision, right?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, yeah, but I think, you know, just like anything, any kind of marketing, you know, you pitch, your pitch is a little different depending on who your audience is. And I think you have to think about what those, what those issues are for older people. Like, for me, I don't have grandchildren, so I don't have that tugging away at me. But I mean, Jody sounded like she had a thing yesterday about, well, they'll be there with you virtually or, you know. And I served with two women or three, actually, that had grandchildren. And one of them had to go back for medical reasons. But the other two did not and their grandchildren visited them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, my children visited us, you know, I mean, so anyway. But it is something, it is a passion of mine that I want to continue.

[Assistant] Let me just ask about that. When your children visited, you said your son, who's in the military, really had a good time. What was your children's reaction? And did they meet your, the people in the village or the town you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mother's first comment was, what will I tell my bridge group? My father said, well, Libby, I think we can work our way through this. I had one friend who was so happy she was just absolutely thrilled. She came from limited circumstances. She wasn't going to be able to go to college. She actually had a job as a nanny when she graduated. And she had been interviewed by, I think, the FBI. So she knew more about this than I did. And she was so excited when I when I found out.

[Assistant] She was interviewed about you?

[User] You, about me. And even though even though I had been away at college for four years and she was she was working she didn't work in Vandergrift or my hometown. She worked in another community. And she, she was so excited. I mean, when I got home, this was going home for the weekend that after this interview, I called her and she was just so excited because she knew about it and I didn't. And she kind of had put one over on me.

[Assistant] It's kind of strange that they didn't communicate with you at all between the letter you sent in and.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, I made her early days. It was so early. I mean, they really and when I hear about forms and interviews in reference to I think I just wrote a letter and I probably sent my resume and I did have a strong resume for a college senior. I mean, I had been editor of my college newspaper. I've been involved in some different community committees and service projects. So I wasn't.

[Assistant] So you showed some leadership?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You, about me. And even though even though I had been away at college for four years and she was she was working she didn't work in Vandergrift or my hometown. She worked in another community. And she, she was so excited. I mean, when I got home, this was going home for the weekend that after this interview, I called her and she was just so excited because she knew about it and I didn't. And she kind of had put one over on me.

[Assistant] It's kind of strange that they didn't communicate with you at all between the letter you sent in and.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, I made her early days. It was so early. I mean, they really and when I hear about forms and interviews in reference to I think I just wrote a letter and I probably sent my resume and I did have a strong resume for a college senior. I mean, I had been editor of my college newspaper. I've been involved in some different community committees and service projects. So I wasn't.

[Assistant] So you showed some leadership?

[User] I showed some leadership, I guess, when the Face book was published. And that's what they used to call the book that went to the country with your picture. They said, I had a background in cooking and sewing and food preservation. I I spent summers on my grandmother's farm and I knew more about food preservation than most people know today. I still don't eat pickles, you know, and I had my mother every turn would say, please take something practical. So I take another sewing course. So I had domestic skills, if you will, and they must have shown up somewhere. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Great story. Yeah. OK, so they sent you a letter and they said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, I made her early days. It was so early. I mean, they really and when I hear about forms and interviews in reference to I think I just wrote a letter and I probably sent my resume and I did have a strong resume for a college senior. I mean, I had been editor of my college newspaper. I've been involved in some different community committees and service projects. So I wasn't.

[Assistant] So you showed some leadership?

[User] I showed some leadership, I guess, when the Face book was published. And that's what they used to call the book that went to the country with your picture. They said, I had a background in cooking and sewing and food preservation. I I spent summers on my grandmother's farm and I knew more about food preservation than most people know today. I still don't eat pickles, you know, and I had my mother every turn would say, please take something practical. So I take another sewing course. So I had domestic skills, if you will, and they must have shown up somewhere. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Great story. Yeah. OK, so they sent you a letter and they said.

[User] They said you've been invited for Peace Corps training and that's training. Yes, that's.

[Assistant] And did they say Columbia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I showed some leadership, I guess, when the Face book was published. And that's what they used to call the book that went to the country with your picture. They said, I had a background in cooking and sewing and food preservation. I I spent summers on my grandmother's farm and I knew more about food preservation than most people know today. I still don't eat pickles, you know, and I had my mother every turn would say, please take something practical. So I take another sewing course. So I had domestic skills, if you will, and they must have shown up somewhere. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Great story. Yeah. OK, so they sent you a letter and they said.

[User] They said you've been invited for Peace Corps training and that's training. Yes, that's.

[Assistant] And did they say Columbia?

[User] Yes, they said Columbia. They said Urban Community Action. I mean the whole thing was laid out. Training would begin in July, graduation was in June. And I had like six weeks and I was going to New Mexico to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[Assistant] That's where the training


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They said you've been invited for Peace Corps training and that's training. Yes, that's.

[Assistant] And did they say Columbia?

[User] Yes, they said Columbia. They said Urban Community Action. I mean the whole thing was laid out. Training would begin in July, graduation was in June. And I had like six weeks and I was going to New Mexico to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[Assistant] That's where the training

[User] That's where the training was.

[Assistant] Was it at university?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they said Columbia. They said Urban Community Action. I mean the whole thing was laid out. Training would begin in July, graduation was in June. And I had like six weeks and I was going to New Mexico to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[Assistant] That's where the training

[User] That's where the training was.

[Assistant] Was it at university?

[User] It was one of the first groups that went through the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque with a man named Marshall. Mason was head of it. It was quite interesting. Nobody had been to Columbia. That was just sort of you know, you had we had several Cuban people that had a Cuban background, bright people, but nobody knew anything about Columbia. You know, we have one professor that told us about real husband here who had been the ousted dictator and he had been educated in the states tri state college in Angola, Indiana. My brother was enrolled there. It's OK. My brother's going to be an engineer. So school, they

[Assistant] Do have language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's where the training was.

[Assistant] Was it at university?

[User] It was one of the first groups that went through the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque with a man named Marshall. Mason was head of it. It was quite interesting. Nobody had been to Columbia. That was just sort of you know, you had we had several Cuban people that had a Cuban background, bright people, but nobody knew anything about Columbia. You know, we have one professor that told us about real husband here who had been the ousted dictator and he had been educated in the states tri state college in Angola, Indiana. My brother was enrolled there. It's OK. My brother's going to be an engineer. So school, they

[Assistant] Do have language training?

[User] We had intensive language training by Cuban. By Cubans. Yeah. And we spent a lot of time in the labs and it was, was very intensive language training. There were probably there were probably local people because New Mexico in Albuquerque has a large Spanish population and all of the meals every you didn't you were absorbed in the language. You know, I had had two years of Spanish in school. I did very well in it. I had never been to the language lab because it interfered with publishing the school newspaper. The lab was set up at the same time. But, you know, so I was not in it looked like I had a real strong background in Spanish. Truth was I didn't at that time.

[Assistant] And what else will you train did during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We had I think we had courses in like the social mores or the customs of what they thought would go on in Colombia, some, some exposure to what they thought Colombian people were like. I remember going out to an Indian reservation for like hands on work experiences, but I don't remember much about that, except I had never been on an Indian reservation and this just looked like a big desert to me. But again, I had never been out of Western, has never been to the western part of the country. We totally, you know, totally this was a foreign land to me. And I remember the flight because I'd never been on an airplane, you know, and you got all dressed up and you flew and it was out from Pittsburgh to Chicago to someplace, Kansas maybe. And then the last stop was Albuquerque and Chicago. Fewer people get one in Kansas.

There's very few people from Kansas going to Albuquerque. So I stood up. There was a girl down. She also was standing up, we were looking around to see who else was going to Albuquerque and what were the circumstances, and we both were going into Peace Corps training in the same group. In the same group, right. Yeah. And we, you know, imagine the audacity of standing up in an airplane looking to see who else is flying and connecting with another person.

[Assistant] So how many people were in training with you?

[User] There were more than a hundred people. It was a large group. It was two thirds women and one third men. The idea being that they didn't think they weren't sure that women could serve one in the Peace Corps. And if they could serve in Colombia,

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] I'm not sure. I think it might have been the machismo of the culture, because I knew that at that time there were there were nurses, there were nursing groups that had been women. And I think there had been women teachers may be sent elsewhere, but they were,

[Assistant] Like you said, two thirds were women.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were more than a hundred people. It was a large group. It was two thirds women and one third men. The idea being that they didn't think they weren't sure that women could serve one in the Peace Corps. And if they could serve in Colombia,

[Assistant] Why was that?

[User] I'm not sure. I think it might have been the machismo of the culture, because I knew that at that time there were there were nurses, there were nursing groups that had been women. And I think there had been women teachers may be sent elsewhere, but they were,

[Assistant] Like you said, two thirds were women.

[User] Women. Yes. Because when they paired us up for teams in urban development, there were two women and a guy on each team. And if you were a married couple with the married couple were in the site, but it was they didn't let two women serve together in the sight.

[Assistant] That was they had to have a man.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure. I think it might have been the machismo of the culture, because I knew that at that time there were there were nurses, there were nursing groups that had been women. And I think there had been women teachers may be sent elsewhere, but they were,

[Assistant] Like you said, two thirds were women.

[User] Women. Yes. Because when they paired us up for teams in urban development, there were two women and a guy on each team. And if you were a married couple with the married couple were in the site, but it was they didn't let two women serve together in the sight.

[Assistant] That was they had to have a man.

[User] They had to have a man, which may be worked out because you needed the man to speak in community meetings. Women were second class.

[Assistant] So let's just spend a little more time on training. So you all went to Albuquerque?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Women. Yes. Because when they paired us up for teams in urban development, there were two women and a guy on each team. And if you were a married couple with the married couple were in the site, but it was they didn't let two women serve together in the sight.

[Assistant] That was they had to have a man.

[User] They had to have a man, which may be worked out because you needed the man to speak in community meetings. Women were second class.

[Assistant] So let's just spend a little more time on training. So you all went to Albuquerque?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you all make it through training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had to have a man, which may be worked out because you needed the man to speak in community meetings. Women were second class.

[Assistant] So let's just spend a little more time on training. So you all went to Albuquerque?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you all make it through training?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] What was this process like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you all make it through training?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] What was this process like?

[User] There was the, it's since been frowned on the horrible selection process. And that was that was really a miserable experience. I was going to ask I came home one night. I missed curfew, not by much, but I climbed through the window to get into my room on the first floor and my roommate was packing her bags. And I said, what's going on? She said, they tell me I can't be a Peace Corps volunteer. I can't be in this. And she was obviously crying. I was upset. I mean, she was a good language student. She was she was Jewish. She was from one of the New York City, Brooklyn in Brooklyn, New York, one of the one of the boroughs. Very intense, very I thought a lot of fun to be around. And she was in tears. They didn't give her a reason. She had to be out by morning. And there she was. And they did that video that went on and it was not pretty. I go and they held that over your heads. And they did. They had, we were tested unbelievably. There were all kinds of psychological testing. And there were like I think it's called a scatter gram test where you put down three people you want to serve with three people. You wouldn't be happy serving with her three or four. And they were using these, you know, to determine I mean, we were doing these and we felt they were using them to determine who was going to make it and who was. And they didn't ask you why you didn't want to why you wouldn't work with somebody or why you wouldn't. You just had to. And they forced you to answer these questions. I mean, you could not turn in the thing blank. You had to do it.

[Assistant] And do you think they did use those, those evaluations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were supposed to be getting experience in social work because they didn't know what we were going to do in Columbia, so they wanted to expose it. I was on my section. I was going, I was in West Eighty-seven Street where the movie West Side Story had been filmed. I was right there again, language exposure. I think sometimes we were just an extra pair of hands or a body to check on landlords or whatever was going on, you know, just to observe conditions. The office I was in, I don't remember what it was, but the man who headed it was a graduate of Hampton Institute, was an all-Black school. I happened to be a graduate of Junior out of college. We were the first college that had welcomed Hampton Institute's football team to play football. And when he knew I was from Virginia, I mean, he and I bonded immediately, you know, over that. You know, how, how people how people meet and interact. And that was, was huge. And I said Junior at that time was a ranked football power. They had gone to they'd gone to the Tangerine Bowl. And Chuck Knox, who was later became a professional coach, player and coach. So they had they were a power in Division three football. How do I know all about athletics?

[Assistant] So do you think the training prepared you for your experience in Columbia?

[User] I don't know. It gave me some language skills. I own is that's. I don't know what kind of training would prepare you to be a Peace Corps volunteer. I mean, my children were volunteers and they had different experiences. Well, I don't know. I don't know whether.

[Assistant] You were exposed to lots of different cultures.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That we maybe that was it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. It gave me some language skills. I own is that's. I don't know what kind of training would prepare you to be a Peace Corps volunteer. I mean, my children were volunteers and they had different experiences. Well, I don't know. I don't know whether.

[Assistant] You were exposed to lots of different cultures.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That we maybe that was it.

[User] That would probably be the best way. I mean, we were all young. We were all you know, I was not the most naive in the group, but I was certainly among those who.

[Assistant] And how many of you actually went overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That we maybe that was it.

[User] That would probably be the best way. I mean, we were all young. We were all you know, I was not the most naive in the group, but I was certainly among those who.

[Assistant] And how many of you actually went overseas?

[User] I'm trying to remember, I think maybe 50 women and maybe, you know, maybe 20 or 30 of the men made it. It was you know, they definitely there was a definitely an attrition rate. There was even attrition. Once we arrived at our sites, there was a woman that was in an older woman that was in my group in the city of Medellin. And after and we were found in apartment, we were there and she said, I'm going home. I can't do this. You said you were a part of the Nuremberg trials and you can't do this, you know. No, I'm not. I'm out of here. No. So, I mean, that was.

[Assistant] It happens. It happens. So. So you left New York and flew to Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would probably be the best way. I mean, we were all young. We were all you know, I was not the most naive in the group, but I was certainly among those who.

[Assistant] And how many of you actually went overseas?

[User] I'm trying to remember, I think maybe 50 women and maybe, you know, maybe 20 or 30 of the men made it. It was you know, they definitely there was a definitely an attrition rate. There was even attrition. Once we arrived at our sites, there was a woman that was in an older woman that was in my group in the city of Medellin. And after and we were found in apartment, we were there and she said, I'm going home. I can't do this. You said you were a part of the Nuremberg trials and you can't do this, you know. No, I'm not. I'm out of here. No. So, I mean, that was.

[Assistant] It happens. It happens. So. So you left New York and flew to Colombia?

[User] We flew home. But we also I we in New York, we stayed at the International House and the Cuban Missile Crisis happened while we were there. And we were all surrounded by a television set waiting to see what happened. And that's why I think we went from New York to Colombia.

[Assistant] Ok, so you got off the plane in and where? Bogota, Bogota and Bogota. And then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to remember, I think maybe 50 women and maybe, you know, maybe 20 or 30 of the men made it. It was you know, they definitely there was a definitely an attrition rate. There was even attrition. Once we arrived at our sites, there was a woman that was in an older woman that was in my group in the city of Medellin. And after and we were found in apartment, we were there and she said, I'm going home. I can't do this. You said you were a part of the Nuremberg trials and you can't do this, you know. No, I'm not. I'm out of here. No. So, I mean, that was.

[Assistant] It happens. It happens. So. So you left New York and flew to Colombia?

[User] We flew home. But we also I we in New York, we stayed at the International House and the Cuban Missile Crisis happened while we were there. And we were all surrounded by a television set waiting to see what happened. And that's why I think we went from New York to Colombia.

[Assistant] Ok, so you got off the plane in and where? Bogota, Bogota and Bogota. And then what happened?

[User] There were two groups of male volunteers that were ahead of us. They met the plane. They hadn't seen an American female in a year. So they I don't know whether they had a conference or they were all on medical leave in Bogota that week. But we flew in late at night. I mean, it was late, you know, and then for a week or so, we had some sort of orientation there. And then we were sent to our sites.

[Assistant] And where were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was. There were there was a lot of drug. There was. Is it opium poppy drug? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't uncommon to come home at night and have somebody asleep on our doorstep or stoned on our doorstep. The drug cartel was going on. And then I mean, drugs, if you're in Medellin, is the flower of the flower capitals of the world. It's a coffee growing region. It doesn't take much to the soil that will grow. Coffee and flowers is also the soil that will grow cocaine. And yeah, it was there. One of the saddest things that we had is we were in the states that we got a phone call from an attorney asking if we would be a character witness in a trial for somebody that we knew that had gotten mixed up in the cartel with the lieutenant. And we said, wait a minute. So we contacted our friend and said, you know, it's his right, you know, should we do it? And Maggie said, no. She said he went bad. She said he murdered his brother. We said, OK, that's it. You know, we can't be a character witness for this guy. So, you know, when you're poor and it's a means to an end, you know, all kinds of things, kinds of things happen, you know.

[Assistant] So you made several friends among Colombian folks. Did you make friends with Peace Corps volunteers that apparently. Well, you ended up marrying.

[User] Yes, we did. We yeah. That was you know, I think one of your questions relates to impact.

[Assistant] Again, what is going to get to that?

[User] Know and I thought about that one because I thought where was the impact? I think for me, some of the impact truly was meeting people from all over my own country who had interesting outlooks on life. Some like mine, some not like mine. We just actually meeting and becoming friendly with people from a wide variety of spectrums. I mean, just so people I would not have met in western Pennsylvania under any circumstance.

[Assistant] Sounds highly relevant at the moment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Know and I thought about that one because I thought where was the impact? I think for me, some of the impact truly was meeting people from all over my own country who had interesting outlooks on life. Some like mine, some not like mine. We just actually meeting and becoming friendly with people from a wide variety of spectrums. I mean, just so people I would not have met in western Pennsylvania under any circumstance.

[Assistant] Sounds highly relevant at the moment.

[User] Yes. Yes. It really

[Assistant] Seriously.

[User] Yeah, it's. Yeah. And you wouldn't meet these people otherwise. We all had a common mission, if you will. I mean, I think that was we all wanted to serve. I mean and I follow some of these like women in Peace Corps women, Peace Corps groups and things like thinking huh. It wasn't the Peace Corps that I was aware of. I mean, it just, it just seems like such a different world. I mean, the men were out in their villages. And I so admire these guys. I mean, they were working and they were doing things. And that's where they're that's where their focus was, was on making a difference where they were. And I was frustrated because we couldn't really make a difference where we were and we couldn't ask to be transferred out. So we just did we did the best we could

[Assistant] Because you were a woman and therefore placed in this barrio. Or I guess it's I'm trying to sort out a placement is that the woman being a woman in Peace Corps is a I am treated in Colombia or what combination of all of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. It really

[Assistant] Seriously.

[User] Yeah, it's. Yeah. And you wouldn't meet these people otherwise. We all had a common mission, if you will. I mean, I think that was we all wanted to serve. I mean and I follow some of these like women in Peace Corps women, Peace Corps groups and things like thinking huh. It wasn't the Peace Corps that I was aware of. I mean, it just, it just seems like such a different world. I mean, the men were out in their villages. And I so admire these guys. I mean, they were working and they were doing things. And that's where they're that's where their focus was, was on making a difference where they were. And I was frustrated because we couldn't really make a difference where we were and we couldn't ask to be transferred out. So we just did we did the best we could

[Assistant] Because you were a woman and therefore placed in this barrio. Or I guess it's I'm trying to sort out a placement is that the woman being a woman in Peace Corps is a I am treated in Colombia or what combination of all of that?

[User] Part of it was we felt a strong commitment that we had to stay in that barrio because, you know, if the mayor says, I'm going to pull out all the volunteers if you don't keep volunteers there. So we had that commitment and we had to find out something to make it work. And that was huge and it was so early. The other thing is we were so close to the airport. We were within walking distance of the airport. So you've got lots of people from Congress, you've got lots of people coming down and they're showcasing where you are. So lots of people pass through there. And that was interesting.

[Assistant] Did you feel you were part of the American official presence there, as there's always this delicate balance between this Peace Corps, part of the State Department, you know, one of the senators now. Wants to put it under state. How did you feel about that? I mean, you had a friend, the wife


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, not my goal in life was to raise if I was going to raise children, if I was going to raise women and I happened to get women, is to be strong, independent women to do your follow your path, not to do you know what we want you to do, but to do what you want to do. And that was that's why two of them chose Peace Corps as part of their path. But yeah. And the other two are significant volunteers and contributors and all sorts of things.

[Assistant] So you have four daughters.

[User] We have four daughters. Yes.

[Assistant] That's good. Yeah. So is there anything is there a story you want to tell or is there something you want to talk about that I didn't ask you about?

[User] Oh, no, it's fine.

[Assistant] No, it's not. It's been a good interview. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Nothing, huh?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] That’s exciting.

[User] You just were assigned a number for accounting purposes that this job was going to be—everything was going to be charged to this one number. I’m sorry I can’t think of that. I’ll see Al Eggers at the banquet—

[Assistant] We’ll fill it in, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] That’s exciting.

[User] You just were assigned a number for accounting purposes that this job was going to be—everything was going to be charged to this one number. I’m sorry I can’t think of that. I’ll see Al Eggers at the banquet—

[Assistant] We’ll fill it in, yes.

[User] —and he’ll remember, because he [became] part of the problem. When he went to Headquarters, he started expanding some of these additional paperwork things.

[Assistant] Can you give me an example of an idea or a research that you had that went from this no paperwork into fruition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we did lose some then. Some tried to get back on. One fellow started at Ames, went to Lockheed, came back to Ames, and then went to industry again. He was a very, very bright guy, from Minnesota like me, but he shifted around too much. But there was very, very little turnover. It was sort of you were there, a lot of people, for their whole career.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that you came to work there at a time of great changes. Could you share a little bit more about that?

[User] It was a time when there were lots of new things to do. … [Supersonic flight was still experimental at best.] We didn’t have jet transports or anything like that. I remember going to Washington [D.C.] in DC-6s and the like, old propeller airplanes, take forever.\n\n But there were a lot of opportunities. There were so many new things to do that you could really—in every aspect of aeronautics there was, from propulsion to aerodynamics, the higher speeds, understanding transonic flows. Spreiter was good at that, my friend Spreiter. And there were others. Even the handling qualities, how these things flew, were changing, and we really were just beginning to build sophisticated simulators, which Ames, and Langley, too, became very good at building, very, very fancy simulators. So then there were very few supersonic wind tunnels, so that was a whole new field. Space hadn’t started yet or ballistic missiles or any of that. But the technology was exploding so fast, you were almost running to keep up.

[Assistant] What was your typical day like? What time would you get to work, and what time did you get to come home?

[User] Oh, it varied a great deal.

[Assistant] Did it vary based on what part of that process you were in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there was a lot of people that went out. Probably not as much as Langley, but it was sort of like Langley, because Langley, all the people like [Robert R.] Gilruth and Chris Kraft and all those, Faget and all those people, came out of Langley. Anyhow.

[Assistant]
Another one?

No, we’re out of tape here.

Okay. So are you about through for—

[User] It came out even? [Laughs]

[Assistant] I think it did. Well, we thank you for the day.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] It was fun for us, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But this is when I got back from the Peace Corps. I was back here in Ann Arbor and then ended up teaching at the community college and technical college. [tape break]

[Assistant] As soon as I finish introducing myself. So then I have it running before. That's fine.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] This is Ernie Zaremba interviewing Tom Wagner, and today's date is?

[User] Today is the 3rd of September 2004. My name is Tom Wagner. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Malaysia. I was part of a rural community action group that was sent to Malaysia. My job, however, was that of a soil surveyor. I was in Malaysia from May of 1965 to June of 1967.

[Assistant] Okay, Tom, let's start with the present. Maybe tell us a little bit about where you're living now, what you're doing now, your interests, anything that relates to the present.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] This is Ernie Zaremba interviewing Tom Wagner, and today's date is?

[User] Today is the 3rd of September 2004. My name is Tom Wagner. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Malaysia. I was part of a rural community action group that was sent to Malaysia. My job, however, was that of a soil surveyor. I was in Malaysia from May of 1965 to June of 1967.

[Assistant] Okay, Tom, let's start with the present. Maybe tell us a little bit about where you're living now, what you're doing now, your interests, anything that relates to the present.

[User] Okay. Um, I'm living in Ann Arbor with my wife, who works for the University of Michigan. I worked for 30 years for the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, which is based here in Ann Arbor. I retired two years ago, and I currently teach urban geography at Eastern Michigan University on a part time basis.

[Assistant] Okay, now let's go back to the earlier years, back to before you joined the Peace Corps. And a year or two before when you started thinking about, whatever got that thinking going and in effect ending up with why did you join the Peace Corps? Those stories there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Today is the 3rd of September 2004. My name is Tom Wagner. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Malaysia. I was part of a rural community action group that was sent to Malaysia. My job, however, was that of a soil surveyor. I was in Malaysia from May of 1965 to June of 1967.

[Assistant] Okay, Tom, let's start with the present. Maybe tell us a little bit about where you're living now, what you're doing now, your interests, anything that relates to the present.

[User] Okay. Um, I'm living in Ann Arbor with my wife, who works for the University of Michigan. I worked for 30 years for the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, which is based here in Ann Arbor. I retired two years ago, and I currently teach urban geography at Eastern Michigan University on a part time basis.

[Assistant] Okay, now let's go back to the earlier years, back to before you joined the Peace Corps. And a year or two before when you started thinking about, whatever got that thinking going and in effect ending up with why did you join the Peace Corps? Those stories there.

[User] Well, as you probably know, John Kennedy actually came to the University of Michigan and inadvertently perhaps announced the idea of the Peace Corps on the steps of the Michigan Union. I was in that crowd at midnight on that October day. And, uh, as my academic career progressed in the School of Natural Resources, I thought more and more about the opportunities for travel and for using my skills in natural resources as part of the Peace Corps. And I graduated in 1964. I didn't have anything I particularly wanted to do from a professional standpoint. And so the opportunity to join the Peace Corps came up. I put in my application without any preference listed, and I got a letter back a couple months later saying I had an opportunity to go to Malaysia.

[Assistant] And do you remember your reaction to the letter, or family's and friends' reactions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Um, I'm living in Ann Arbor with my wife, who works for the University of Michigan. I worked for 30 years for the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, which is based here in Ann Arbor. I retired two years ago, and I currently teach urban geography at Eastern Michigan University on a part time basis.

[Assistant] Okay, now let's go back to the earlier years, back to before you joined the Peace Corps. And a year or two before when you started thinking about, whatever got that thinking going and in effect ending up with why did you join the Peace Corps? Those stories there.

[User] Well, as you probably know, John Kennedy actually came to the University of Michigan and inadvertently perhaps announced the idea of the Peace Corps on the steps of the Michigan Union. I was in that crowd at midnight on that October day. And, uh, as my academic career progressed in the School of Natural Resources, I thought more and more about the opportunities for travel and for using my skills in natural resources as part of the Peace Corps. And I graduated in 1964. I didn't have anything I particularly wanted to do from a professional standpoint. And so the opportunity to join the Peace Corps came up. I put in my application without any preference listed, and I got a letter back a couple months later saying I had an opportunity to go to Malaysia.

[Assistant] And do you remember your reaction to the letter, or family's and friends' reactions?

[User] I was pleased with the invitation to go to Malaysia. I wasn't entirely sure where it was. I knew it was in Southeast Asia. My first, uh, my first activity was to go to a map and find out where Malaysia was. I was surprised to discover at least Malaya is part of the peninsula of Southeast Asia. It's not an island group, although Borneo is part of Malaysia. But, uh, my parents, uh, my friends were pleased. They were satisfied. They thought that was a good thing to do. As you may recall, it was also at the time of the Vietnam War and the opportunity to go to Malaysia rather than to Vietnam seemed attractive.

[Assistant] Okay. Where did you go for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had an initial group of 99. Uh, 66 of which were then subsequently selected to go to Malaysia.

[Assistant] And so it sounds like a fairly stringent, uh, selection process.

[User] We were being trained for what was then called rural community action. The intent was that the volunteers would go into villages and to work with village leaders to do whatever they thought would be useful to the village. Much of our training concerned building water seal toilets, latrines, looking at aspects of agriculture. We were taught how to raise and slaughter, uh, goats and swine. And so we had a kind of a broad, uh, training experience. I would say probably half or more of the volunteers, or at least the trainees at the time, had 4-H experience and came from farm states.

[Assistant] Now, why do you suppose there was such a high attrition in 33 being deselected?

[User] Well, I don't really know. I know that indeed there was, uh, particularly I think it was more difficult for the young women than for the young men. But why? Partly because I, it was explained to us that we were really going to be put into a rugged situation where we would be in rural villages and not have access to health care and a variety of other things. So I think they were very careful about selecting people that could accommodate to those conditions.

[Assistant] There's some volunteers that we've interviewed before have said that in their program it was kind of a real point of tension because they really emphasized the deselection. Was that true in your, in your program as you remember it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think the staff was very good. I do recall that we received quite a bit of useful information. Because I ended up doing not rural community action, much of the training in terms of animal husbandry and sanitation was not useful to me, but nevertheless, I thought it was a wonderful experience and there was a strong bonding, I would say, between the group. When deselection did occur, it was painful to see, uh, friends that you had made leave.

I think the, the one surprise for me when I first went into training was that indeed there were other people like myself who were interested in traveling in different parts of the world and without being paid to have this experience of service. No one prior to my meeting the trainees in Hawaii, uh, no one that I knew had been in the Peace Corps before or had basically similar aspirations. So it came as a surprise, a delightful surprise to me. Kindred souls.

[Assistant] Now, how long was the training about, would you say?

[User] Training was three months.

[Assistant] And how, how was the language training? What was your reaction to that to?

[User] Uh, I thought it was very good. It was an aural lingual kind of training, uh, repeat after me where the, there were a number of Malay, native Malays that were there, and they would repeat over and over again phrases which we would say in unison and individually work to imitate as carefully and clearly as possible. Only afterwards were we told what the words mean.

[Assistant] That's sort of fascinating. That worked really effectively for you, you'd say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Training was three months.

[Assistant] And how, how was the language training? What was your reaction to that to?

[User] Uh, I thought it was very good. It was an aural lingual kind of training, uh, repeat after me where the, there were a number of Malay, native Malays that were there, and they would repeat over and over again phrases which we would say in unison and individually work to imitate as carefully and clearly as possible. Only afterwards were we told what the words mean.

[Assistant] That's sort of fascinating. That worked really effectively for you, you'd say?

[User] I think so. I was not particularly good at languages, and it did have the effect of providing me with, I think, some basic Malay skills. Malay is not a terribly difficult language, it's a tonal language. But the effect was that I still have some of those phrases running around in my head today.

[Assistant] For example? If you could share some of this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I was not particularly good at languages, and it did have the effect of providing me with, I think, some basic Malay skills. Malay is not a terribly difficult language, it's a tonal language. But the effect was that I still have some of those phrases running around in my head today.

[Assistant] For example? If you could share some of this.

[User] Well, I mean the greeting abacaba habibi, how are you? There's a, there's a whole range of phrases, essentially, short phrases that one uses on the street or in the bazaar. [speaks Malay] That was one. Where is the post office? I remember trying that out the first day I got to Kuala Lumpur on one of the local policemen that were standing there. The fellow just sort of looked at me and said, well, I'll tell you, Joe.

[Assistant] In English?

[User] In English, yes.

[Assistant] Okay, so then flew to, from, directly from Hawaii to Kuala Lumpur? Or you went back home for a bit?