[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Why not?

[Assistant] OK, so when we finally got to Bolivia. What was your impression of Bolivia when we got there?

[User] Well, luckily we had been told quite a bit about Bolivia. So we landed in the La Paz airport, I remember that. And of course, I was looking in every direction and people had warned us that we might have altitude sickness and all that. But, uh, yeah, it was just very, very interesting to see actually see what we've been told about for all these months of training. So I think we were. It was a good experience for us all. We weren't too rushed. They gave us time to sort of settle into a hotel. I think we were only there like a week.

[Assistant] I don't know if it was that long even.

[User] Yeah, we went we met the president. We met the American ambassador. So, yeah, that was a good time. Oh, but the horrendous time came next. Driving. Driving from La Paz to Cochabamba on these narrow, narrow, winding roads with a drop off on one side and our little Willis jeep. Oh my. Caution was thrown to the wind there.

[Assistant] I nearly had a heart attack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, luckily we had been told quite a bit about Bolivia. So we landed in the La Paz airport, I remember that. And of course, I was looking in every direction and people had warned us that we might have altitude sickness and all that. But, uh, yeah, it was just very, very interesting to see actually see what we've been told about for all these months of training. So I think we were. It was a good experience for us all. We weren't too rushed. They gave us time to sort of settle into a hotel. I think we were only there like a week.

[Assistant] I don't know if it was that long even.

[User] Yeah, we went we met the president. We met the American ambassador. So, yeah, that was a good time. Oh, but the horrendous time came next. Driving. Driving from La Paz to Cochabamba on these narrow, narrow, winding roads with a drop off on one side and our little Willis jeep. Oh my. Caution was thrown to the wind there.

[Assistant] I nearly had a heart attack.

[User] Yeah, me too. And it was actually our driver, I mean, our good doctor leading the pack. And he was driving way too fast, in my estimation. Doesn't hear me. You know, you can go online and you can get a list the most dangerous roads in the world. And at least three of them are in Bolivia. And one of them is that road between La Paz and Cochabamba. It wasn’t paved. And if you met any vehicle, and there were big busses and big trucks on that road, one of the vehicles would have to wait to the side and people would get out and direct each other. And we passed each other, oh. That was the scariest.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember that nobody wanted to wear seatbelts because of the drop-off. Because, you know, if it went over they wanted to be thrown out. They didn’t want to go all the way down. So then we went on to Cochabamba. And what did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we went we met the president. We met the American ambassador. So, yeah, that was a good time. Oh, but the horrendous time came next. Driving. Driving from La Paz to Cochabamba on these narrow, narrow, winding roads with a drop off on one side and our little Willis jeep. Oh my. Caution was thrown to the wind there.

[Assistant] I nearly had a heart attack.

[User] Yeah, me too. And it was actually our driver, I mean, our good doctor leading the pack. And he was driving way too fast, in my estimation. Doesn't hear me. You know, you can go online and you can get a list the most dangerous roads in the world. And at least three of them are in Bolivia. And one of them is that road between La Paz and Cochabamba. It wasn’t paved. And if you met any vehicle, and there were big busses and big trucks on that road, one of the vehicles would have to wait to the side and people would get out and direct each other. And we passed each other, oh. That was the scariest.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember that nobody wanted to wear seatbelts because of the drop-off. Because, you know, if it went over they wanted to be thrown out. They didn’t want to go all the way down. So then we went on to Cochabamba. And what did you?

[User] Well that was a very beautiful place. And I was thinking, oh, I'd like to stay here I think, because I knew about the tropical Santa Cruz that was coming up. And Cochabamba seemed to be so livable. And we had more training there, I think, or introduction to the area.

[Assistant] We had Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, the American community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, me too. And it was actually our driver, I mean, our good doctor leading the pack. And he was driving way too fast, in my estimation. Doesn't hear me. You know, you can go online and you can get a list the most dangerous roads in the world. And at least three of them are in Bolivia. And one of them is that road between La Paz and Cochabamba. It wasn’t paved. And if you met any vehicle, and there were big busses and big trucks on that road, one of the vehicles would have to wait to the side and people would get out and direct each other. And we passed each other, oh. That was the scariest.

[Assistant] Yeah, I remember that nobody wanted to wear seatbelts because of the drop-off. Because, you know, if it went over they wanted to be thrown out. They didn’t want to go all the way down. So then we went on to Cochabamba. And what did you?

[User] Well that was a very beautiful place. And I was thinking, oh, I'd like to stay here I think, because I knew about the tropical Santa Cruz that was coming up. And Cochabamba seemed to be so livable. And we had more training there, I think, or introduction to the area.

[Assistant] We had Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, the American community.

[User] OK, I had forgotten that for. It was Thanksgiving time already. ’62.

[Assistant] So then do you remember going to Santa Cruz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well that was a very beautiful place. And I was thinking, oh, I'd like to stay here I think, because I knew about the tropical Santa Cruz that was coming up. And Cochabamba seemed to be so livable. And we had more training there, I think, or introduction to the area.

[Assistant] We had Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, the American community.

[User] OK, I had forgotten that for. It was Thanksgiving time already. ’62.

[Assistant] So then do you remember going to Santa Cruz?

[User] Mm hmm. That was another crazy drive. That time I was a little hesitant about getting in the vehicle. I thought, oh, can I be lucky enough to survive two of these trips? And in the middle of it all, I swore that I would never, ever leave Santa Cruz except by air.

[Assistant] Oh, did you ever leave it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, I had forgotten that for. It was Thanksgiving time already. ’62.

[Assistant] So then do you remember going to Santa Cruz?

[User] Mm hmm. That was another crazy drive. That time I was a little hesitant about getting in the vehicle. I thought, oh, can I be lucky enough to survive two of these trips? And in the middle of it all, I swore that I would never, ever leave Santa Cruz except by air.

[Assistant] Oh, did you ever leave it?

[User] Yeah, once I took a bus to Cochabamba. That was even worse.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of those folks I remembered, were not used to riding in busses and cars, so they’d be sick. And so, you know, the windows were open, but they’d be tossing up their cookies in front of you. So tell me about your, what you were doing in the Santa Cruz area, where you went and what you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. That was another crazy drive. That time I was a little hesitant about getting in the vehicle. I thought, oh, can I be lucky enough to survive two of these trips? And in the middle of it all, I swore that I would never, ever leave Santa Cruz except by air.

[Assistant] Oh, did you ever leave it?

[User] Yeah, once I took a bus to Cochabamba. That was even worse.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of those folks I remembered, were not used to riding in busses and cars, so they’d be sick. And so, you know, the windows were open, but they’d be tossing up their cookies in front of you. So tell me about your, what you were doing in the Santa Cruz area, where you went and what you did.

[User] Ok, Wayne and I and five other volunteers were assigned to Portachuelo, which was, I guess, east of Santa Cruz, further inland even. I was lucky because my background was in home economics education and there was a spot at the Agricultural Extension Service, which is very similar to what we have here in the U.S. There was a home economics extension person there, so she became my coworker. She was a very young woman. She didn't really have any training in home economics, but she was Bolivian and she was very outspoken. And together we made a pretty good team because I had the technical part of it and she had the social part of it. And together. Plus, I had the driver's license and I could take Peace Corps jeep wherever we should or probably shouldn't have taken it. So together, she and I organized homemakers clubs and Cuatro- Ese, which is equivalent to our 4-H, in the entire district. So we went out to villages and organized these groups and then subsequently we went back and had classes and meetings with these groups. So I was lucky to have sort of a definite assignment like that which fit my background.

[Assistant] Yeah, that is yeah, because in that sense of community development, people are sort of trying to develop their job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, once I took a bus to Cochabamba. That was even worse.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of those folks I remembered, were not used to riding in busses and cars, so they’d be sick. And so, you know, the windows were open, but they’d be tossing up their cookies in front of you. So tell me about your, what you were doing in the Santa Cruz area, where you went and what you did.

[User] Ok, Wayne and I and five other volunteers were assigned to Portachuelo, which was, I guess, east of Santa Cruz, further inland even. I was lucky because my background was in home economics education and there was a spot at the Agricultural Extension Service, which is very similar to what we have here in the U.S. There was a home economics extension person there, so she became my coworker. She was a very young woman. She didn't really have any training in home economics, but she was Bolivian and she was very outspoken. And together we made a pretty good team because I had the technical part of it and she had the social part of it. And together. Plus, I had the driver's license and I could take Peace Corps jeep wherever we should or probably shouldn't have taken it. So together, she and I organized homemakers clubs and Cuatro- Ese, which is equivalent to our 4-H, in the entire district. So we went out to villages and organized these groups and then subsequently we went back and had classes and meetings with these groups. So I was lucky to have sort of a definite assignment like that which fit my background.

[Assistant] Yeah, that is yeah, because in that sense of community development, people are sort of trying to develop their job.

[User] The rest of the group in Portachuelo were assigned to the rice cooperative there in various capacities.

[Assistant] Who else was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, Wayne and I and five other volunteers were assigned to Portachuelo, which was, I guess, east of Santa Cruz, further inland even. I was lucky because my background was in home economics education and there was a spot at the Agricultural Extension Service, which is very similar to what we have here in the U.S. There was a home economics extension person there, so she became my coworker. She was a very young woman. She didn't really have any training in home economics, but she was Bolivian and she was very outspoken. And together we made a pretty good team because I had the technical part of it and she had the social part of it. And together. Plus, I had the driver's license and I could take Peace Corps jeep wherever we should or probably shouldn't have taken it. So together, she and I organized homemakers clubs and Cuatro- Ese, which is equivalent to our 4-H, in the entire district. So we went out to villages and organized these groups and then subsequently we went back and had classes and meetings with these groups. So I was lucky to have sort of a definite assignment like that which fit my background.

[Assistant] Yeah, that is yeah, because in that sense of community development, people are sort of trying to develop their job.

[User] The rest of the group in Portachuelo were assigned to the rice cooperative there in various capacities.

[Assistant] Who else was there?

[User] In our group, it was Tom Woodward and Chuck Glass and Art Andres and Ralph Clarke and Audrey Dorf and Wayne and I. And at first we all lived in the same house, which was the top floor of a very large house and the owner of the house served us our meals together, etcetera. It wasn't the best setup in the world, but it started us off.

[Assistant] Yeah, so I was just thinking, you know, Art and Tom and. I was just thinking that Chuck and Tom and Ralph are all deceased.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The rest of the group in Portachuelo were assigned to the rice cooperative there in various capacities.

[Assistant] Who else was there?

[User] In our group, it was Tom Woodward and Chuck Glass and Art Andres and Ralph Clarke and Audrey Dorf and Wayne and I. And at first we all lived in the same house, which was the top floor of a very large house and the owner of the house served us our meals together, etcetera. It wasn't the best setup in the world, but it started us off.

[Assistant] Yeah, so I was just thinking, you know, Art and Tom and. I was just thinking that Chuck and Tom and Ralph are all deceased.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I don't know where Art is. So is that pretty much what you did most of the time that you were there was work with homemakers clubs and the Cuatro-Ese?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In our group, it was Tom Woodward and Chuck Glass and Art Andres and Ralph Clarke and Audrey Dorf and Wayne and I. And at first we all lived in the same house, which was the top floor of a very large house and the owner of the house served us our meals together, etcetera. It wasn't the best setup in the world, but it started us off.

[Assistant] Yeah, so I was just thinking, you know, Art and Tom and. I was just thinking that Chuck and Tom and Ralph are all deceased.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I don't know where Art is. So is that pretty much what you did most of the time that you were there was work with homemakers clubs and the Cuatro-Ese?

[User] Well, I was reminded again by reading these letters that I did that for, oh, maybe seven, eight months and then realized that I was, Marcella and I were really duplicating each other. So I branched out then into, I hope I helped with her, helped her a little bit with that. Then I branched out into the schools. I was asked by the teachers at the primary and what they call the normal school, which was equivalent to high school, and the kindergarten, to teach nutrition and health classes there, and then some English classes. They wanted English also. So I started doing that as well, because Marcella was doing a perfectly good job on her own.

[Assistant] Good. Sort of helped train her then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] I don't know where Art is. So is that pretty much what you did most of the time that you were there was work with homemakers clubs and the Cuatro-Ese?

[User] Well, I was reminded again by reading these letters that I did that for, oh, maybe seven, eight months and then realized that I was, Marcella and I were really duplicating each other. So I branched out then into, I hope I helped with her, helped her a little bit with that. Then I branched out into the schools. I was asked by the teachers at the primary and what they call the normal school, which was equivalent to high school, and the kindergarten, to teach nutrition and health classes there, and then some English classes. They wanted English also. So I started doing that as well, because Marcella was doing a perfectly good job on her own.

[Assistant] Good. Sort of helped train her then.

[User] Well, yes. I thought that she would remain there long after I left, which was not the case.

[Assistant] You can't predict.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was reminded again by reading these letters that I did that for, oh, maybe seven, eight months and then realized that I was, Marcella and I were really duplicating each other. So I branched out then into, I hope I helped with her, helped her a little bit with that. Then I branched out into the schools. I was asked by the teachers at the primary and what they call the normal school, which was equivalent to high school, and the kindergarten, to teach nutrition and health classes there, and then some English classes. They wanted English also. So I started doing that as well, because Marcella was doing a perfectly good job on her own.

[Assistant] Good. Sort of helped train her then.

[User] Well, yes. I thought that she would remain there long after I left, which was not the case.

[Assistant] You can't predict.

[User] Well, because she married a Peace Corps volunteer and she left before I did. But yeah.

[Assistant] Can you think about any particular incidents that happened that were really memorable, that you might like to tell me about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, because she married a Peace Corps volunteer and she left before I did. But yeah.

[Assistant] Can you think about any particular incidents that happened that were really memorable, that you might like to tell me about?

[User] Memorable in a positive way?

[Assistant] Any way.

[User] Well, I think, I mean, this isn’t very significant but memorable. Were the many, many hours that Marcella and I spent digging our Jeep out of the mud and her willingness to go seek help and the willingness of villagers to come and help us, or to invite us into their home overnight if we couldn't get ourselves moved out of there. This was a real experience. I remember one time we came back to a homemakers group that we had been working with quite diligently. We had a handicraft project going because they wanted to make items which they could sell in the market. And one time we came back and they had burned all their own handicraft. And we later found out that they had thought that Marcella, they had heard that Marcella and I were communists. That was the word they used. Someone had told them that. So they had burned all their handicraft articles. How sad was that? I don't remember the follow-up of that at all.

[Assistant] Did you continue going out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Memorable in a positive way?

[Assistant] Any way.

[User] Well, I think, I mean, this isn’t very significant but memorable. Were the many, many hours that Marcella and I spent digging our Jeep out of the mud and her willingness to go seek help and the willingness of villagers to come and help us, or to invite us into their home overnight if we couldn't get ourselves moved out of there. This was a real experience. I remember one time we came back to a homemakers group that we had been working with quite diligently. We had a handicraft project going because they wanted to make items which they could sell in the market. And one time we came back and they had burned all their own handicraft. And we later found out that they had thought that Marcella, they had heard that Marcella and I were communists. That was the word they used. Someone had told them that. So they had burned all their handicraft articles. How sad was that? I don't remember the follow-up of that at all.

[Assistant] Did you continue going out there?

[User] Oh, you know, I don't remember that part of it because that memory only came back the other letter I had written to my parents. I’d forgotten that part.

[Assistant] Well, there was quite a bit of anti-American sentiment in Bolivia at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think, I mean, this isn’t very significant but memorable. Were the many, many hours that Marcella and I spent digging our Jeep out of the mud and her willingness to go seek help and the willingness of villagers to come and help us, or to invite us into their home overnight if we couldn't get ourselves moved out of there. This was a real experience. I remember one time we came back to a homemakers group that we had been working with quite diligently. We had a handicraft project going because they wanted to make items which they could sell in the market. And one time we came back and they had burned all their own handicraft. And we later found out that they had thought that Marcella, they had heard that Marcella and I were communists. That was the word they used. Someone had told them that. So they had burned all their handicraft articles. How sad was that? I don't remember the follow-up of that at all.

[Assistant] Did you continue going out there?

[User] Oh, you know, I don't remember that part of it because that memory only came back the other letter I had written to my parents. I’d forgotten that part.

[Assistant] Well, there was quite a bit of anti-American sentiment in Bolivia at the time.

[User] Yeah, even in, remember, even in the Santa Cruz newspaper, even Peace Corps was questioned more than once.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, so what else do you remember? That’s fascinating. Tell me some more. Was it challenging trying to teach some of the things you were trying to teach to the women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you know, I don't remember that part of it because that memory only came back the other letter I had written to my parents. I’d forgotten that part.

[Assistant] Well, there was quite a bit of anti-American sentiment in Bolivia at the time.

[User] Yeah, even in, remember, even in the Santa Cruz newspaper, even Peace Corps was questioned more than once.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, so what else do you remember? That’s fascinating. Tell me some more. Was it challenging trying to teach some of the things you were trying to teach to the women?

[User] It was in a way, because, well, you know, people are the same really all over the world. Sometimes you get into a project with a lot of enthusiasm and oftentimes that enthusiasm isn't sustained. So sometimes Marcella and I would drive, you know, 15 muddy miles to a village to attend a meeting that had been scheduled the month before, to find only one person there. But then we didn't turn around and go home. Instead, we walked from house to house inviting people. And it was discouraging because we thought, you know, that they would gladly come and get together. And sometimes that enthusiasm wasn't always there. But so what else is new? That happens everywhere in the world.

[Assistant] It does. Do you remember in 1963 where you were when we found out about Kennedy being assassinated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Wayne had a meeting with Harold Vedato who was our director, our project director, in Santa Cruz. So he and I were in their house actually. Harold Vedato and Wayne and Sandy White, who was the USAID man, were meeting together. And, um, Maxine, Mrs. Vedato, she and I were just in the living room and her radio was on. And it was some news report, but very scratchy. The reception was really bad. And we thought we heard this news about President Kennedy being killed and we couldn't believe it. We put our ear to the radio and then we called the guys in to listen. And that's where we first learned about the assassination. And we still couldn't quite believe it, because while the radio was really scratchy, I don't remember if it was in English. Probably was Voice of America, I don't know. But we were also stunned. And the Vedatos were from Texas. So, you know, that was even more stunning for them. So then I don't know how we got the official word.

[Assistant] I was in Santa Cruz at the same time. We were on our way to a meeting in Cochabamba, I think. Some of us, at least. I know I was traveling with someone and I don't remember. And we went to Santa Cruz, Sucre, and then up to Cochabamba.

[User] Oh, yeah, I don't remember that part.

[Assistant] It may be that I was doing something specific. I don't remember.

[User] But I do remember once we got back home to Portachuelo how people from Portachuelo would come to our house and just knock at our door and embrace us as if one of our parents had died. I mean, they were so, they were in mourning. The people of our village, it was amazing.

[Assistant] It was. I remember on the trip I took the flags are flying at half mast, the next day, all the way up to like Sucre, all these little white flags.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I don't remember that part.

[Assistant] It may be that I was doing something specific. I don't remember.

[User] But I do remember once we got back home to Portachuelo how people from Portachuelo would come to our house and just knock at our door and embrace us as if one of our parents had died. I mean, they were so, they were in mourning. The people of our village, it was amazing.

[Assistant] It was. I remember on the trip I took the flags are flying at half mast, the next day, all the way up to like Sucre, all these little white flags.

[User] And I think people were wearing bands on their arms. Whether they were bands of mourning, I don't remember. Many people were wearing those bands.

[Assistant] People would come up and just wherever and tell you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I do remember once we got back home to Portachuelo how people from Portachuelo would come to our house and just knock at our door and embrace us as if one of our parents had died. I mean, they were so, they were in mourning. The people of our village, it was amazing.

[Assistant] It was. I remember on the trip I took the flags are flying at half mast, the next day, all the way up to like Sucre, all these little white flags.

[User] And I think people were wearing bands on their arms. Whether they were bands of mourning, I don't remember. Many people were wearing those bands.

[Assistant] People would come up and just wherever and tell you.

[User] Yeah, and then embrace you and say we're so sorry.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Big jolt for me. I imagine it was a big jolt for you. I didn't think that would happen in the U.S. at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think people were wearing bands on their arms. Whether they were bands of mourning, I don't remember. Many people were wearing those bands.

[Assistant] People would come up and just wherever and tell you.

[User] Yeah, and then embrace you and say we're so sorry.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Big jolt for me. I imagine it was a big jolt for you. I didn't think that would happen in the U.S. at the time.

[User] No, no, of course not. Not what I know now.

[Assistant] So OK, so when you got up, when you got down to the end of your time there and you were leaving and all. What do you think you really accomplished there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and then embrace you and say we're so sorry.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Big jolt for me. I imagine it was a big jolt for you. I didn't think that would happen in the U.S. at the time.

[User] No, no, of course not. Not what I know now.

[Assistant] So OK, so when you got up, when you got down to the end of your time there and you were leaving and all. What do you think you really accomplished there?

[User] Well, I didn't save the world, but I think that's where I learned a whole lot. For one thing, I learned what it is like to live with other people and to absorb all the love and good feelings that they surrounded us with. I learned that it was possible to be accepted into a community, even though we were somewhat different from the other people there. And I hope that through the classes and lessons I taught, I hope that some people's minds were opened a little bit to maybe change a little bit or at least to consider what options they had. And then when we worked with especially the Cuarto-Ese groups where children were able to accomplish something. It's the same with us. If we actually accomplish something ourselves, then our self-confidence increases and then we go on to something else on our own accord. And I think and I hope that happens with a lot of people that we had contact with there.

[Assistant] Good. So in the long run, what do you think your major contribution was? Just what you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, of course not. Not what I know now.

[Assistant] So OK, so when you got up, when you got down to the end of your time there and you were leaving and all. What do you think you really accomplished there?

[User] Well, I didn't save the world, but I think that's where I learned a whole lot. For one thing, I learned what it is like to live with other people and to absorb all the love and good feelings that they surrounded us with. I learned that it was possible to be accepted into a community, even though we were somewhat different from the other people there. And I hope that through the classes and lessons I taught, I hope that some people's minds were opened a little bit to maybe change a little bit or at least to consider what options they had. And then when we worked with especially the Cuarto-Ese groups where children were able to accomplish something. It's the same with us. If we actually accomplish something ourselves, then our self-confidence increases and then we go on to something else on our own accord. And I think and I hope that happens with a lot of people that we had contact with there.

[Assistant] Good. So in the long run, what do you think your major contribution was? Just what you said?

[User] Yeah, just what I said really. We were one more contact that they had that hopefully opened the minds, the minds of those around us, to accepting Americans, to recognizing what Americans were like too.

[Assistant] Did you have any health problems while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I didn't save the world, but I think that's where I learned a whole lot. For one thing, I learned what it is like to live with other people and to absorb all the love and good feelings that they surrounded us with. I learned that it was possible to be accepted into a community, even though we were somewhat different from the other people there. And I hope that through the classes and lessons I taught, I hope that some people's minds were opened a little bit to maybe change a little bit or at least to consider what options they had. And then when we worked with especially the Cuarto-Ese groups where children were able to accomplish something. It's the same with us. If we actually accomplish something ourselves, then our self-confidence increases and then we go on to something else on our own accord. And I think and I hope that happens with a lot of people that we had contact with there.

[Assistant] Good. So in the long run, what do you think your major contribution was? Just what you said?

[User] Yeah, just what I said really. We were one more contact that they had that hopefully opened the minds, the minds of those around us, to accepting Americans, to recognizing what Americans were like too.

[Assistant] Did you have any health problems while you were there?

[User] Oh, yeah, I got malaria.

[Assistant] Oh did you? I didn’t know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, just what I said really. We were one more contact that they had that hopefully opened the minds, the minds of those around us, to accepting Americans, to recognizing what Americans were like too.

[Assistant] Did you have any health problems while you were there?

[User] Oh, yeah, I got malaria.

[Assistant] Oh did you? I didn’t know that.

[User] I didn't know it was malaria at the time. And at the time there was no there was no malaria preventative. But I mean I have since had malaria in a different country, so I recognized it. For one month I just wanted to go home to my mommy.

[Assistant] When did this happen? Early on in your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, I got malaria.

[Assistant] Oh did you? I didn’t know that.

[User] I didn't know it was malaria at the time. And at the time there was no there was no malaria preventative. But I mean I have since had malaria in a different country, so I recognized it. For one month I just wanted to go home to my mommy.

[Assistant] When did this happen? Early on in your?

[User] No, it was sort of in the middle, in the middle of it all. And I was so sick.

[Assistant] I can't believe I didn't know that had it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know it was malaria at the time. And at the time there was no there was no malaria preventative. But I mean I have since had malaria in a different country, so I recognized it. For one month I just wanted to go home to my mommy.

[Assistant] When did this happen? Early on in your?

[User] No, it was sort of in the middle, in the middle of it all. And I was so sick.

[Assistant] I can't believe I didn't know that had it.

[User] But I didn't know.

[Assistant] You didn't know that it was malaria. And see the doctors, from my point of view, were at a disadvantage, our Peace Corps doctors, because they were not trained in tropical medicine. I mean, nobody would have diagnosed Audrey with Chagas, if hadn't been for that local doctor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was sort of in the middle, in the middle of it all. And I was so sick.

[Assistant] I can't believe I didn't know that had it.

[User] But I didn't know.

[Assistant] You didn't know that it was malaria. And see the doctors, from my point of view, were at a disadvantage, our Peace Corps doctors, because they were not trained in tropical medicine. I mean, nobody would have diagnosed Audrey with Chagas, if hadn't been for that local doctor.

[User] Right. But we had all the mosquitoes. I mean, it was just the typical place to contract malaria.

[Assistant] Yeah, I pretty much slept under a mosquito net.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I didn't know.

[Assistant] You didn't know that it was malaria. And see the doctors, from my point of view, were at a disadvantage, our Peace Corps doctors, because they were not trained in tropical medicine. I mean, nobody would have diagnosed Audrey with Chagas, if hadn't been for that local doctor.

[User] Right. But we had all the mosquitoes. I mean, it was just the typical place to contract malaria.

[Assistant] Yeah, I pretty much slept under a mosquito net.

[User] Well, we did, too.

[Assistant] But then you go out. What about, did you guys travel any while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. But we had all the mosquitoes. I mean, it was just the typical place to contract malaria.

[Assistant] Yeah, I pretty much slept under a mosquito net.

[User] Well, we did, too.

[Assistant] But then you go out. What about, did you guys travel any while you were there?

[User] We took one big trip at a Christmas time, so I guess it was ‘63. So we went down the coast of Chile, way down to the end. And then we came across Argentina in a train, third class. Oh my gosh. With the windows open and the dust coming in and our seats were wooden benches in the train. We went to Buenos Aires. Oh, and then getting home, we were late coming home because we were going to come home by train across Uruguay, I guess. And the trains were on strike. There we were, stuck in this city in Uruguay and trying to fly out. But for some reason, I don't know if there were commercial flights. Well, finally, finally, we went up to this pilot who was flying cargo to Santa Cruz. And after about five days of trying, we were accepted on that cargo plane.

[Assistant] Well, what would happen, because subsequently I lived two years in Paraguay. There was just no way if you wanted to go to Bolivia, you had to go to Buenos Aires and then go up to La Paz. You couldn’t just fly across.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did, too.

[Assistant] But then you go out. What about, did you guys travel any while you were there?

[User] We took one big trip at a Christmas time, so I guess it was ‘63. So we went down the coast of Chile, way down to the end. And then we came across Argentina in a train, third class. Oh my gosh. With the windows open and the dust coming in and our seats were wooden benches in the train. We went to Buenos Aires. Oh, and then getting home, we were late coming home because we were going to come home by train across Uruguay, I guess. And the trains were on strike. There we were, stuck in this city in Uruguay and trying to fly out. But for some reason, I don't know if there were commercial flights. Well, finally, finally, we went up to this pilot who was flying cargo to Santa Cruz. And after about five days of trying, we were accepted on that cargo plane.

[Assistant] Well, what would happen, because subsequently I lived two years in Paraguay. There was just no way if you wanted to go to Bolivia, you had to go to Buenos Aires and then go up to La Paz. You couldn’t just fly across.

[User] Well, we did.

[Assistant] Yeah, officially. Unofficially in some kind of cargo plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We took one big trip at a Christmas time, so I guess it was ‘63. So we went down the coast of Chile, way down to the end. And then we came across Argentina in a train, third class. Oh my gosh. With the windows open and the dust coming in and our seats were wooden benches in the train. We went to Buenos Aires. Oh, and then getting home, we were late coming home because we were going to come home by train across Uruguay, I guess. And the trains were on strike. There we were, stuck in this city in Uruguay and trying to fly out. But for some reason, I don't know if there were commercial flights. Well, finally, finally, we went up to this pilot who was flying cargo to Santa Cruz. And after about five days of trying, we were accepted on that cargo plane.

[Assistant] Well, what would happen, because subsequently I lived two years in Paraguay. There was just no way if you wanted to go to Bolivia, you had to go to Buenos Aires and then go up to La Paz. You couldn’t just fly across.

[User] Well, we did.

[Assistant] Yeah, officially. Unofficially in some kind of cargo plane.

[User] Because we were planning to take the train. But they went on strike. So and the cargo happened to be raw meat.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did.

[Assistant] Yeah, officially. Unofficially in some kind of cargo plane.

[User] Because we were planning to take the train. But they went on strike. So and the cargo happened to be raw meat.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] When we got on the plane.

[Assistant] It must have been coming from Paraguay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we were planning to take the train. But they went on strike. So and the cargo happened to be raw meat.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] When we got on the plane.

[Assistant] It must have been coming from Paraguay.

[User] Yeah, I think so. There were cows at the airport. We didn't know that. So they slaughtered the cows there in the airport and put the meat in our plane that we were on, in the aisles. There were only like about five passengers. Yeah, and we flew to Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] It's got to be one of the more interesting flights you probably have ever taken.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we got on the plane.

[Assistant] It must have been coming from Paraguay.

[User] Yeah, I think so. There were cows at the airport. We didn't know that. So they slaughtered the cows there in the airport and put the meat in our plane that we were on, in the aisles. There were only like about five passengers. Yeah, and we flew to Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] It's got to be one of the more interesting flights you probably have ever taken.

[User] And there was one man, similar to a steward on an airplane, who actually served us 7-Up on a tray. He had to crawl all over this cargo to get to us. But he did it graciously. And that is the truth.

[Assistant] Oh, that has to be preserved, Marj, for that reason, that story, alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think so. There were cows at the airport. We didn't know that. So they slaughtered the cows there in the airport and put the meat in our plane that we were on, in the aisles. There were only like about five passengers. Yeah, and we flew to Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] It's got to be one of the more interesting flights you probably have ever taken.

[User] And there was one man, similar to a steward on an airplane, who actually served us 7-Up on a tray. He had to crawl all over this cargo to get to us. But he did it graciously. And that is the truth.

[Assistant] Oh, that has to be preserved, Marj, for that reason, that story, alone.

[User] It wasn't frozen either.

[Assistant] That's probably why they had to get it fast over there, because there wasn’t any refrigeration. Oh wow, OK. So the goals of the Peace Corps were like technical assistance where requested, promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So in light of those goals, how would you evaluate your time there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was one man, similar to a steward on an airplane, who actually served us 7-Up on a tray. He had to crawl all over this cargo to get to us. But he did it graciously. And that is the truth.

[Assistant] Oh, that has to be preserved, Marj, for that reason, that story, alone.

[User] It wasn't frozen either.

[Assistant] That's probably why they had to get it fast over there, because there wasn’t any refrigeration. Oh wow, OK. So the goals of the Peace Corps were like technical assistance where requested, promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So in light of those goals, how would you evaluate your time there?

[User] I think it was time well spent because, yes, I think we met all of those goals. We learned a lot. And hopefully people who were in contact with us also saw us for what we were as Americans.

[Assistant] Did you, um, so when you came home, what did you do? How did that experience translate into your subsequent life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn't frozen either.

[Assistant] That's probably why they had to get it fast over there, because there wasn’t any refrigeration. Oh wow, OK. So the goals of the Peace Corps were like technical assistance where requested, promote better understanding of the U.S., and to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So in light of those goals, how would you evaluate your time there?

[User] I think it was time well spent because, yes, I think we met all of those goals. We learned a lot. And hopefully people who were in contact with us also saw us for what we were as Americans.

[Assistant] Did you, um, so when you came home, what did you do? How did that experience translate into your subsequent life?

[User] Well, very directly, actually. First, we had to finish school, go back to school, because neither of us even had our bachelor's degrees at that time. So we did that.

[Assistant] Where did you go to school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was time well spent because, yes, I think we met all of those goals. We learned a lot. And hopefully people who were in contact with us also saw us for what we were as Americans.

[Assistant] Did you, um, so when you came home, what did you do? How did that experience translate into your subsequent life?

[User] Well, very directly, actually. First, we had to finish school, go back to school, because neither of us even had our bachelor's degrees at that time. So we did that.

[Assistant] Where did you go to school?

[User] I went back to North Dakota State University. And we had met and I had one year left and I had signed up to be a math teacher in Holly, Minnesota. But that summer, we got a letter from the Department of Welfare in Nevada because we had met, as Peace Corps volunteers on application I was talking about. We had met another Peace Corps couple from Colombia, and we got to know them a little bit on vacation and then never heard from them again. But they had subsequently returned to the U.S. and had taken positions at the Indian reservation in northern Nevada. And they were looking for a home ec teacher and an industrial arts teacher. And Wayne was industrial arts at that time. So they had told their director to go to the Peace Corps office and try to find our names, to locate us. And they found us and offered us the job. So Wayne and I then went to Nevada to work on this reservation.

[Assistant] Not too far removed from the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, very directly, actually. First, we had to finish school, go back to school, because neither of us even had our bachelor's degrees at that time. So we did that.

[Assistant] Where did you go to school?

[User] I went back to North Dakota State University. And we had met and I had one year left and I had signed up to be a math teacher in Holly, Minnesota. But that summer, we got a letter from the Department of Welfare in Nevada because we had met, as Peace Corps volunteers on application I was talking about. We had met another Peace Corps couple from Colombia, and we got to know them a little bit on vacation and then never heard from them again. But they had subsequently returned to the U.S. and had taken positions at the Indian reservation in northern Nevada. And they were looking for a home ec teacher and an industrial arts teacher. And Wayne was industrial arts at that time. So they had told their director to go to the Peace Corps office and try to find our names, to locate us. And they found us and offered us the job. So Wayne and I then went to Nevada to work on this reservation.

[Assistant] Not too far removed from the Peace Corps.

[User] Very, very similar. Very similar to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So subsequently, what have you been doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went back to North Dakota State University. And we had met and I had one year left and I had signed up to be a math teacher in Holly, Minnesota. But that summer, we got a letter from the Department of Welfare in Nevada because we had met, as Peace Corps volunteers on application I was talking about. We had met another Peace Corps couple from Colombia, and we got to know them a little bit on vacation and then never heard from them again. But they had subsequently returned to the U.S. and had taken positions at the Indian reservation in northern Nevada. And they were looking for a home ec teacher and an industrial arts teacher. And Wayne was industrial arts at that time. So they had told their director to go to the Peace Corps office and try to find our names, to locate us. And they found us and offered us the job. So Wayne and I then went to Nevada to work on this reservation.

[Assistant] Not too far removed from the Peace Corps.

[User] Very, very similar. Very similar to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So subsequently, what have you been doing?

[User] Well, we were still then and then we were.

[Assistant] You did another tour, didn't you? Of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very, very similar. Very similar to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So subsequently, what have you been doing?

[User] Well, we were still then and then we were.

[Assistant] You did another tour, didn't you? Of the Peace Corps?

[User] No. Actually, we were supposed to go back to Bolivia as Peace Corps staff. Wayne was getting the staff position. He'd been accepted for that position. And then Peace Corps, at that time, was discontinued in Bolivia. And that was when we were just, we'd already moved out of our house, sold our car, everything. So instead we were sent to India. And Wayne was associate Peace Corps director in India. But then the war between India and Pakistan broke out. So Indira Gandhi said Peace Corps volunteers serving could fulfill their terms, but there would be no more Peace Corps in India. And so we were given, oh, just two months to get out. And then we had to, we as staff people, had to leave.

[Assistant] When, uh, how long were you in India then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were still then and then we were.

[Assistant] You did another tour, didn't you? Of the Peace Corps?

[User] No. Actually, we were supposed to go back to Bolivia as Peace Corps staff. Wayne was getting the staff position. He'd been accepted for that position. And then Peace Corps, at that time, was discontinued in Bolivia. And that was when we were just, we'd already moved out of our house, sold our car, everything. So instead we were sent to India. And Wayne was associate Peace Corps director in India. But then the war between India and Pakistan broke out. So Indira Gandhi said Peace Corps volunteers serving could fulfill their terms, but there would be no more Peace Corps in India. And so we were given, oh, just two months to get out. And then we had to, we as staff people, had to leave.

[Assistant] When, uh, how long were you in India then?

[User] We were in India only a year, um, over a year. But it was a two- year contract.

[Assistant] Well, same thing happened with me in Chile. We were expecting to go. It was USAID contract to be there three years and after a year it was discontinued because our government and theirs, Pinochet, didn't agree. So, you know, you're always getting up with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Actually, we were supposed to go back to Bolivia as Peace Corps staff. Wayne was getting the staff position. He'd been accepted for that position. And then Peace Corps, at that time, was discontinued in Bolivia. And that was when we were just, we'd already moved out of our house, sold our car, everything. So instead we were sent to India. And Wayne was associate Peace Corps director in India. But then the war between India and Pakistan broke out. So Indira Gandhi said Peace Corps volunteers serving could fulfill their terms, but there would be no more Peace Corps in India. And so we were given, oh, just two months to get out. And then we had to, we as staff people, had to leave.

[Assistant] When, uh, how long were you in India then?

[User] We were in India only a year, um, over a year. But it was a two- year contract.

[Assistant] Well, same thing happened with me in Chile. We were expecting to go. It was USAID contract to be there three years and after a year it was discontinued because our government and theirs, Pinochet, didn't agree. So, you know, you're always getting up with that.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So after that then what did you do? Weren't you in Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in India only a year, um, over a year. But it was a two- year contract.

[Assistant] Well, same thing happened with me in Chile. We were expecting to go. It was USAID contract to be there three years and after a year it was discontinued because our government and theirs, Pinochet, didn't agree. So, you know, you're always getting up with that.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So after that then what did you do? Weren't you in Africa?

[User] Yeah. Well, that came later either.

[Assistant] Did you come back to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] So after that then what did you do? Weren't you in Africa?

[User] Yeah. Well, that came later either.

[Assistant] Did you come back to the U.S.?

[User] Because we were supposed to. Yeah. Because we were supposed to continue as Peace Corps staff, or Wayne as Peace Corps staff, in Jamaica. But they weren't ready for us yet. So in the meantime, we learned of a job, community development job, with the Kootenai tribe in northern Idaho. So we thought, well, we're just sitting here doing nothing. Let's go for the interview anyway. And we got there and decided, hey, you know, this is great, let's move here. So that's how that happened.

[Assistant] I was wondering how you ended up in Idaho.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, that came later either.

[Assistant] Did you come back to the U.S.?

[User] Because we were supposed to. Yeah. Because we were supposed to continue as Peace Corps staff, or Wayne as Peace Corps staff, in Jamaica. But they weren't ready for us yet. So in the meantime, we learned of a job, community development job, with the Kootenai tribe in northern Idaho. So we thought, well, we're just sitting here doing nothing. Let's go for the interview anyway. And we got there and decided, hey, you know, this is great, let's move here. So that's how that happened.

[Assistant] I was wondering how you ended up in Idaho.

[User] Yeah, right. Yeah. In the meantime, while we were in Nevada, our two children, two of our children were born there, so at that time we had two kids.

[Assistant] So if you had it to do over, if you were advising some younger person, would you advise them to go into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Yeah. In the meantime, while we were in Nevada, our two children, two of our children were born there, so at that time we had two kids.

[Assistant] So if you had it to do over, if you were advising some younger person, would you advise them to go into the Peace Corps?

[User] Depending on their personalities. I think they have to be really open minded and certainly not out to save the world, because that's not what it's all about.

[Assistant] Not possible.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret having gone in yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Depending on their personalities. I think they have to be really open minded and certainly not out to save the world, because that's not what it's all about.

[Assistant] Not possible.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret having gone in yourself?

[User] No, no, no. That was something that opened me up completely.

[Assistant] Do you think it changed what your direction in life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret having gone in yourself?

[User] No, no, no. That was something that opened me up completely.

[Assistant] Do you think it changed what your direction in life?

[User] Oh, definitely. Because of our working time have been in community development either overseas or with the Native Americans here in the U.S.

[Assistant] That’s kind of like service-related jobs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. That was something that opened me up completely.

[Assistant] Do you think it changed what your direction in life?

[User] Oh, definitely. Because of our working time have been in community development either overseas or with the Native Americans here in the U.S.

[Assistant] That’s kind of like service-related jobs.

[User] Mm hmm. And, we had one more Peace Corps experience because, um. Two more. Wayne was the associate Peace Corps director in the Lesotho in southern Africa. And then he was country director in the Gambia. But all this time I met more and more Peace Corps volunteers on an informal basis, because I was employed elsewhere, not the Peace Corps, but I just saw the quality of those volunteers that came and went. Yeah, I met.

[Assistant] Was it good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, definitely. Because of our working time have been in community development either overseas or with the Native Americans here in the U.S.

[Assistant] That’s kind of like service-related jobs.

[User] Mm hmm. And, we had one more Peace Corps experience because, um. Two more. Wayne was the associate Peace Corps director in the Lesotho in southern Africa. And then he was country director in the Gambia. But all this time I met more and more Peace Corps volunteers on an informal basis, because I was employed elsewhere, not the Peace Corps, but I just saw the quality of those volunteers that came and went. Yeah, I met.

[Assistant] Was it good?

[User] It was basically, yeah, like eighty five percent. I mean, of course the training at that time later, in later years, wasn't as stringent. So sometimes volunteers became volunteers and they really didn't have the fortitude for it, or they came with a I want to save the world attitude and then were disappointed. But I met a lot of wonderful young, well, not only young. Some of the older retirees who were volunteers were special people.

[Assistant] So you are pretty happy that you did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. And, we had one more Peace Corps experience because, um. Two more. Wayne was the associate Peace Corps director in the Lesotho in southern Africa. And then he was country director in the Gambia. But all this time I met more and more Peace Corps volunteers on an informal basis, because I was employed elsewhere, not the Peace Corps, but I just saw the quality of those volunteers that came and went. Yeah, I met.

[Assistant] Was it good?

[User] It was basically, yeah, like eighty five percent. I mean, of course the training at that time later, in later years, wasn't as stringent. So sometimes volunteers became volunteers and they really didn't have the fortitude for it, or they came with a I want to save the world attitude and then were disappointed. But I met a lot of wonderful young, well, not only young. Some of the older retirees who were volunteers were special people.

[Assistant] So you are pretty happy that you did it?

[User] Yes, of course. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK, well, I think we're probably at the end here. I’m going to sign us off now. Go ahead, we’ll give it a minute. OK, do you want to talk about the work you did later in the Peace Corps, related to the embassy work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was basically, yeah, like eighty five percent. I mean, of course the training at that time later, in later years, wasn't as stringent. So sometimes volunteers became volunteers and they really didn't have the fortitude for it, or they came with a I want to save the world attitude and then were disappointed. But I met a lot of wonderful young, well, not only young. Some of the older retirees who were volunteers were special people.

[Assistant] So you are pretty happy that you did it?

[User] Yes, of course. Yeah.

[Assistant] OK, well, I think we're probably at the end here. I’m going to sign us off now. Go ahead, we’ll give it a minute. OK, do you want to talk about the work you did later in the Peace Corps, related to the embassy work?

[User] Oh, yes. Um, well, I spent some time in Tanzania too, like seven years, but that was an agricultural related project. But I think what I remember most, my most recent professional experience, was at the American embassy in the Gambia. And I.

[Assistant] How did you happen to get into the embassy? Were you working with USAID or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Um, well, I spent some time in Tanzania too, like seven years, but that was an agricultural related project. But I think what I remember most, my most recent professional experience, was at the American embassy in the Gambia. And I.

[Assistant] How did you happen to get into the embassy? Were you working with USAID or?

[User] No, no. My husband was country director of Peace Corps in the Gambia. That was our last assignment. And then an embassy position opened up and three of us applied. But it was for the ambassador self- help program, which is basically a community development program. And so I applied for that and got that job. And that was great because it was Peace Corps all over again, except it had some money attached to it.

[Assistant] Higher salary.

[User] Yeah. And also, also the U.S. government granted money to projects. Projects that were identified by the various communities, whether, um, whether they be agricultural or income generating projects for communities. Communities would propose a project and many proposals would come in and I would look at them and choose what I thought was the most beneficial ones to fund and pass it through a committee. And then decisions were made about which projects the ambassador would fund. And then it was, once the project got going, then I got to do the follow-up. The visitations and the evaluation and that meant traveling around the country like a Peace Corps volunteer, actually. Yeah. So it's very interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been interesting. And you had such great background for it as opposed to people that we used to see coming in when we were in Bolivia that had no clue exactly what they were supposed to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. My husband was country director of Peace Corps in the Gambia. That was our last assignment. And then an embassy position opened up and three of us applied. But it was for the ambassador self- help program, which is basically a community development program. And so I applied for that and got that job. And that was great because it was Peace Corps all over again, except it had some money attached to it.

[Assistant] Higher salary.

[User] Yeah. And also, also the U.S. government granted money to projects. Projects that were identified by the various communities, whether, um, whether they be agricultural or income generating projects for communities. Communities would propose a project and many proposals would come in and I would look at them and choose what I thought was the most beneficial ones to fund and pass it through a committee. And then decisions were made about which projects the ambassador would fund. And then it was, once the project got going, then I got to do the follow-up. The visitations and the evaluation and that meant traveling around the country like a Peace Corps volunteer, actually. Yeah. So it's very interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been interesting. And you had such great background for it as opposed to people that we used to see coming in when we were in Bolivia that had no clue exactly what they were supposed to be.

[User] Right. Right. And an additional fact was that oftentimes there were Peace Corps volunteers living in these different communities. And I would correspond with them and communicate with them and get their opinions. And oftentimes, if the project was funded, then they were there to help with it, facilitate it. So it was a combination of all of this rolled into one.

[Assistant] And where did you do, in the Gambia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And also, also the U.S. government granted money to projects. Projects that were identified by the various communities, whether, um, whether they be agricultural or income generating projects for communities. Communities would propose a project and many proposals would come in and I would look at them and choose what I thought was the most beneficial ones to fund and pass it through a committee. And then decisions were made about which projects the ambassador would fund. And then it was, once the project got going, then I got to do the follow-up. The visitations and the evaluation and that meant traveling around the country like a Peace Corps volunteer, actually. Yeah. So it's very interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been interesting. And you had such great background for it as opposed to people that we used to see coming in when we were in Bolivia that had no clue exactly what they were supposed to be.

[User] Right. Right. And an additional fact was that oftentimes there were Peace Corps volunteers living in these different communities. And I would correspond with them and communicate with them and get their opinions. And oftentimes, if the project was funded, then they were there to help with it, facilitate it. So it was a combination of all of this rolled into one.

[Assistant] And where did you do, in the Gambia?

[User] In the Gambia.

[Assistant] Great. That would be fascinating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right. And an additional fact was that oftentimes there were Peace Corps volunteers living in these different communities. And I would correspond with them and communicate with them and get their opinions. And oftentimes, if the project was funded, then they were there to help with it, facilitate it. So it was a combination of all of this rolled into one.

[Assistant] And where did you do, in the Gambia?

[User] In the Gambia.

[Assistant] Great. That would be fascinating.

[User] It was very fun. And not too many Americans wanted that job.

[Assistant] Because you had to get out and get dirty.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the Gambia.

[Assistant] Great. That would be fascinating.

[User] It was very fun. And not too many Americans wanted that job.

[Assistant] Because you had to get out and get dirty.

[User] Right. And they probably were afraid of that.

[Assistant] You know, subsequently I was, uh, my ex took a job with USAID in Paraguay. And we took a pick up, but I worked as a volunteer, a former Fulbright scholar, to do this community development stuff. The embassy ladies had no clue or just not. But, you know, as a former Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very fun. And not too many Americans wanted that job.

[Assistant] Because you had to get out and get dirty.

[User] Right. And they probably were afraid of that.

[Assistant] You know, subsequently I was, uh, my ex took a job with USAID in Paraguay. And we took a pick up, but I worked as a volunteer, a former Fulbright scholar, to do this community development stuff. The embassy ladies had no clue or just not. But, you know, as a former Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] Yeah. You have to have some background. Otherwise it would be impossible to do a job like that well.

[Assistant] Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's really nice. How long did you do that kind of stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And they probably were afraid of that.

[Assistant] You know, subsequently I was, uh, my ex took a job with USAID in Paraguay. And we took a pick up, but I worked as a volunteer, a former Fulbright scholar, to do this community development stuff. The embassy ladies had no clue or just not. But, you know, as a former Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] Yeah. You have to have some background. Otherwise it would be impossible to do a job like that well.

[Assistant] Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's really nice. How long did you do that kind of stuff?

[User] Until, well, that was our last assignment. That was a two-year position.

[Assistant] Did you work then again when you came home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You have to have some background. Otherwise it would be impossible to do a job like that well.

[Assistant] Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's really nice. How long did you do that kind of stuff?

[User] Until, well, that was our last assignment. That was a two-year position.

[Assistant] Did you work then again when you came home?

[User] Nope, nope. Well, then it slid into the same kind of work, but volunteer. No pay. And that’s fun.

[Assistant] Still in the Peace Corps but no pay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Until, well, that was our last assignment. That was a two-year position.

[Assistant] Did you work then again when you came home?

[User] Nope, nope. Well, then it slid into the same kind of work, but volunteer. No pay. And that’s fun.

[Assistant] Still in the Peace Corps but no pay.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But that's interesting, Marj. I didn't realize that you had done that as well. I met people in the course of my work in Latin America who were doing all kinds of things at the embassy in Latin America, you know, in Paraguay and Chile and places like that. But that's interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was so further down on the chain I'm not sure I had the right perspective. Although, after Challenger, it was probably one of the more significant periods of learning for a young systems engineer, because we essentially went back to the beginning and said, "Well, did we get this design right?" And we went back to review every aspect of the design at that time. So that was an initiative that I'm sure was started at the top, I just only saw one end of it. But I'm sure [it was] very similar.

[Assistant] Do you feel like that's really helped you where you are now, the fact that you've gone through all of those?

[User] Oh, absolutely. Understanding that it's about relationships and trust, that's critical to success of the NESC or success of any program.

[Assistant] How would you teach these lessons or processes to the next group of upcoming program managers or employees? How do you instill some of the things that you feel are important for success?

[User] I think it's participating in inter-center projects, projects that get you out of your current role where you may have blinders on to your center's perspective only. Going and spending time at another center. I spent my first 16 years at the Kennedy Space Center and didn't know anything else, and so when I went to the Johnson Space Center, it was quite an education for me to see, from a different perspective, the same Shuttle Program. Getting younger folks the opportunity—it would have been nice, I think, earlier in my career to have been able to be involved in other inter-center projects or go to another center for some period of time. I think that's critical.

[Assistant] That's a good thing to know. What do you feel, of all the lessons that you've learned, what's the hardest one that you’ve had to learn? Or maybe I should say the one that you take with you no matter where you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. Understanding that it's about relationships and trust, that's critical to success of the NESC or success of any program.

[Assistant] How would you teach these lessons or processes to the next group of upcoming program managers or employees? How do you instill some of the things that you feel are important for success?

[User] I think it's participating in inter-center projects, projects that get you out of your current role where you may have blinders on to your center's perspective only. Going and spending time at another center. I spent my first 16 years at the Kennedy Space Center and didn't know anything else, and so when I went to the Johnson Space Center, it was quite an education for me to see, from a different perspective, the same Shuttle Program. Getting younger folks the opportunity—it would have been nice, I think, earlier in my career to have been able to be involved in other inter-center projects or go to another center for some period of time. I think that's critical.

[Assistant] That's a good thing to know. What do you feel, of all the lessons that you've learned, what's the hardest one that you’ve had to learn? Or maybe I should say the one that you take with you no matter where you go?

[User] I think it's when I said Columbia and Challenger. If you’re blinded by the successes that you have, you don't think critically enough about issues. That will stay with me forever.

[Assistant] Can you teach those type of techniques in a class? And if so, did you have any of those on the job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but I think that's exactly what a leader or a project manager wants. He can make a better, more well-informed decision if he hears—whether it's two or three or four different perspectives on the problem. Often we'll hone in on one solution, and we get stuck on that one solution, and we missed the problem altogether. So if you're a leader, to me, you're better off if you can hear two or three different perspectives on the problem, and then you can make a decision on which way to go based on those perspectives. I think that results in better, more well-informed decision making.

[Assistant] The way that your program is set up, are you in that position to be the person that asks those questions and to bring those in? Or do other people in the group of your experts take that lead in the discussions?

[User] Sometimes it's me, sometimes we have leads for different tasks. We have multiple people that do that.

[Assistant] And in your case here, are you making a decision or a recommendation back to the program?

[User] Hopefully what we're providing, and what our intent is, [is] to provide them an engineering position based on test and analysis, so that it's not just a judgment or somebody's opinion. It's that we went off and did testing or we did analysis, and these were the results to back up our position. In providing a different perspective, it's not just our engineering opinion or judgment; we're supposed to be backed by test and analysis.

[Assistant] Do you feel that the decision to create your Center will continue on to help solve future issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes it's me, sometimes we have leads for different tasks. We have multiple people that do that.

[Assistant] And in your case here, are you making a decision or a recommendation back to the program?

[User] Hopefully what we're providing, and what our intent is, [is] to provide them an engineering position based on test and analysis, so that it's not just a judgment or somebody's opinion. It's that we went off and did testing or we did analysis, and these were the results to back up our position. In providing a different perspective, it's not just our engineering opinion or judgment; we're supposed to be backed by test and analysis.

[Assistant] Do you feel that the decision to create your Center will continue on to help solve future issues?

[User] I don't know. Because we were created actually before the CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] report was written, it was the summer of 2003, there was a lot of support to go do this. As we get further and further away from the accident, I fear that there will be less and less support because as always, funding is an issue, and the less people remember what was happening at the accident, the less people there are to ensure that organizations like this are properly funded. So it’ll be a struggle as we get further and further away from an accident, I believe.

[Assistant] Well maybe some of the lessons learned and the processes you've created will continue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. Because we were created actually before the CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] report was written, it was the summer of 2003, there was a lot of support to go do this. As we get further and further away from the accident, I fear that there will be less and less support because as always, funding is an issue, and the less people remember what was happening at the accident, the less people there are to ensure that organizations like this are properly funded. So it’ll be a struggle as we get further and further away from an accident, I believe.

[Assistant] Well maybe some of the lessons learned and the processes you've created will continue.

[User] And I do think, because we do see now the programs, Constellation, Shuttle [International Space] Station, much more willing to bring in folks from the outside and to bring in folks from Robotic Space Flight Centers. A great example was [when] the Shuttle Program was dealing with an engine cutoff sensor anomaly—it's been two years now. They actually requested one of our folks from [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] to lead the Tiger Team to look into the anomaly. That would have been unheard of five, ten years ago, that they would have brought somebody in from Goddard to lead that. I think we're making headway from that standpoint, and if we can make that happen, and if it was universal, you wouldn't need the NESC. The goal would be to make everybody think that way, and then you don't need the NESC.

[Assistant] How many issues have you addressed since you've been in formation?

[User] In four years, it's a little over 250 issues. All different, all Mission Directorates, so not just human space flight.

[Assistant] Are these any of the ones that you've seen or ones that you encountered when you were sitting in the midst of the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I do think, because we do see now the programs, Constellation, Shuttle [International Space] Station, much more willing to bring in folks from the outside and to bring in folks from Robotic Space Flight Centers. A great example was [when] the Shuttle Program was dealing with an engine cutoff sensor anomaly—it's been two years now. They actually requested one of our folks from [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] to lead the Tiger Team to look into the anomaly. That would have been unheard of five, ten years ago, that they would have brought somebody in from Goddard to lead that. I think we're making headway from that standpoint, and if we can make that happen, and if it was universal, you wouldn't need the NESC. The goal would be to make everybody think that way, and then you don't need the NESC.

[Assistant] How many issues have you addressed since you've been in formation?

[User] In four years, it's a little over 250 issues. All different, all Mission Directorates, so not just human space flight.

[Assistant] Are these any of the ones that you've seen or ones that you encountered when you were sitting in the midst of the program?

[User] Yes. So I recuse myself from those.

[Assistant] What advice would you share with somebody joining a similar program or wanting to join NASA at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In four years, it's a little over 250 issues. All different, all Mission Directorates, so not just human space flight.

[Assistant] Are these any of the ones that you've seen or ones that you encountered when you were sitting in the midst of the program?

[User] Yes. So I recuse myself from those.

[Assistant] What advice would you share with somebody joining a similar program or wanting to join NASA at this point?

[User] I think it's what we've already talked about, how important it is to build those relationships and trust. Often as engineers, we're trained in the discipline and the physics of a problem, or math, or engineering solutions, and knowing how to and knowing how important it is to build trust and relationships is not what we get trained in. You have to see some examples, like I mentioned Ron and Tommy, of how important it is to go do that. If somebody's starting a new program, I’d spend a whole lot of time, as much time on those relationships as I do on the technical aspect of it.

[Assistant] You have any suggestions on how to teach that or how to train people in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. So I recuse myself from those.

[Assistant] What advice would you share with somebody joining a similar program or wanting to join NASA at this point?

[User] I think it's what we've already talked about, how important it is to build those relationships and trust. Often as engineers, we're trained in the discipline and the physics of a problem, or math, or engineering solutions, and knowing how to and knowing how important it is to build trust and relationships is not what we get trained in. You have to see some examples, like I mentioned Ron and Tommy, of how important it is to go do that. If somebody's starting a new program, I’d spend a whole lot of time, as much time on those relationships as I do on the technical aspect of it.

[Assistant] You have any suggestions on how to teach that or how to train people in that?

[User] Well, I think you have to see it and participate in it to appreciate it.

[Assistant] A hands-on type of affair, isn’t it? What else would you recommend to equip the next generation of Space Agency employees? What are those attributes that people are looking for, that you can train to have that trust and that relationship building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think you have to see it and participate in it to appreciate it.

[Assistant] A hands-on type of affair, isn’t it? What else would you recommend to equip the next generation of Space Agency employees? What are those attributes that people are looking for, that you can train to have that trust and that relationship building?

[User] A lot of times, I know what we see that really inhibits that is when people become really defensive about their technical position. They're not open to other people's suggestions or criticisms, and they get way too defensive, and then they really, again, become blind to seeing that there might be a different way of accomplishing it or a different solution. So trying to be able to resist that temptation to be defensive about your own particular technical position, and to be open about somebody else's perspective, and to listen to other people's perspective—I can't tell you how much I've learned in the last four years. After working in the Agency for 25 years, I've probably learned more in the last four because I'm working with such a diverse group with diverse experience. So if I take the time to listen to them, I can do a whole lot better than if I just stick to my own personal technical position that I've developed only by working in human space flight. So you really have to be able to open up your mind to other perspectives, and it’s difficult sometimes.

[Assistant] That's a great point, thanks for bringing that up because I think everybody gets comfortable.

[User] Oh, absolutely. When I was at the Kennedy Space Center, it was a frame of reference that was purely processing of the Shuttle. When I went to the Johnson Space Center, I said, "Oh!" It was a totally different perspective. Now I've been working with folks from Research Centers and Robotic Space Flight Centers for the past four years, and it's two and three different perspectives. There's something we can learn from all of them, and if we can keep open to that, we'll do much better.

[Assistant] Very good information. I think I've kind of worked through all those. If you want to look through some other thoughts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of times, I know what we see that really inhibits that is when people become really defensive about their technical position. They're not open to other people's suggestions or criticisms, and they get way too defensive, and then they really, again, become blind to seeing that there might be a different way of accomplishing it or a different solution. So trying to be able to resist that temptation to be defensive about your own particular technical position, and to be open about somebody else's perspective, and to listen to other people's perspective—I can't tell you how much I've learned in the last four years. After working in the Agency for 25 years, I've probably learned more in the last four because I'm working with such a diverse group with diverse experience. So if I take the time to listen to them, I can do a whole lot better than if I just stick to my own personal technical position that I've developed only by working in human space flight. So you really have to be able to open up your mind to other perspectives, and it’s difficult sometimes.

[Assistant] That's a great point, thanks for bringing that up because I think everybody gets comfortable.

[User] Oh, absolutely. When I was at the Kennedy Space Center, it was a frame of reference that was purely processing of the Shuttle. When I went to the Johnson Space Center, I said, "Oh!" It was a totally different perspective. Now I've been working with folks from Research Centers and Robotic Space Flight Centers for the past four years, and it's two and three different perspectives. There's something we can learn from all of them, and if we can keep open to that, we'll do much better.

[Assistant] Very good information. I think I've kind of worked through all those. If you want to look through some other thoughts.

[User] I think we hit everything.

[Assistant] I think one of the areas that we might have, that you might want to talk about a little bit more, is that when we ask for an example of a successful risk mitigation activity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. When I was at the Kennedy Space Center, it was a frame of reference that was purely processing of the Shuttle. When I went to the Johnson Space Center, I said, "Oh!" It was a totally different perspective. Now I've been working with folks from Research Centers and Robotic Space Flight Centers for the past four years, and it's two and three different perspectives. There's something we can learn from all of them, and if we can keep open to that, we'll do much better.

[Assistant] Very good information. I think I've kind of worked through all those. If you want to look through some other thoughts.

[User] I think we hit everything.

[Assistant] I think one of the areas that we might have, that you might want to talk about a little bit more, is that when we ask for an example of a successful risk mitigation activity.

[User] Yes, the STS-93 electrical short. The ascent of STS-93 we had an electrical short in a circuit that affected the main engine controllers, and following that, the program stood down, I believe it was about four months, if I remember correctly. We inspected all the wiring, or a majority of the wiring, on all the ships. To me, it took a lot of courage on the Program Manager's part to say, "No, we're going to stop. We're not going to fly until we investigate this anomaly."\n\n It's hard to maybe remember, but there was a lot of pressure there, before Columbia, to complete the Space Station. I think it takes a strong leader to be able to recognize when we need to stop and truly investigate a problem without flying. Often we get in this position where, "Oh, we'll continue to fly while we'll investigate the problem." Because from a schedule pressure standpoint, that seems to be the easiest thing to go do. So it takes a lot of courage to stop and truly investigate a problem while the fleet's on the ground.

[Assistant] One of the comments that you made through our visit today was about a strong leader, and you mentioned that you worked with Tommy Holloway and Ron Dittemore. Are there others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we hit everything.

[Assistant] I think one of the areas that we might have, that you might want to talk about a little bit more, is that when we ask for an example of a successful risk mitigation activity.

[User] Yes, the STS-93 electrical short. The ascent of STS-93 we had an electrical short in a circuit that affected the main engine controllers, and following that, the program stood down, I believe it was about four months, if I remember correctly. We inspected all the wiring, or a majority of the wiring, on all the ships. To me, it took a lot of courage on the Program Manager's part to say, "No, we're going to stop. We're not going to fly until we investigate this anomaly."\n\n It's hard to maybe remember, but there was a lot of pressure there, before Columbia, to complete the Space Station. I think it takes a strong leader to be able to recognize when we need to stop and truly investigate a problem without flying. Often we get in this position where, "Oh, we'll continue to fly while we'll investigate the problem." Because from a schedule pressure standpoint, that seems to be the easiest thing to go do. So it takes a lot of courage to stop and truly investigate a problem while the fleet's on the ground.

[Assistant] One of the comments that you made through our visit today was about a strong leader, and you mentioned that you worked with Tommy Holloway and Ron Dittemore. Are there others?

[User] Bill [William H.] Gerstenmaier and Bob [Robert B.] Sieck. Those are folks that do represent strong leaders in my mind.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of the attributes that you find in leadership. Were there other attributes with the gentlemen that you mentioned, like openness and good communication? Were there other things that they did that you admired, that you feel really helped the success of the program? Maybe you could share with us how they deal with failures? When things didn't work out the way they were supposed to, when they had to start over again. What were some of the leadership things that you felt that they did to help carry the program through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bill [William H.] Gerstenmaier and Bob [Robert B.] Sieck. Those are folks that do represent strong leaders in my mind.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of the attributes that you find in leadership. Were there other attributes with the gentlemen that you mentioned, like openness and good communication? Were there other things that they did that you admired, that you feel really helped the success of the program? Maybe you could share with us how they deal with failures? When things didn't work out the way they were supposed to, when they had to start over again. What were some of the leadership things that you felt that they did to help carry the program through?

[User] I’m trying to think of good examples. I think the whole aspect of building up the team, as opposed to sometimes you get a leader who has a tendency to tear down the team when things don't go right. But those gentlemen, Tommy and Ron, [and] Bill, they have a tendency to build up the team and build up the morale. That's probably it.

[Assistant] That’s a good thought. Is there anything else that you can think you'd like to add?

[User] I think we covered most of it.

[Assistant] All right. I can give you a minute. I don't want to rush you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m trying to think of good examples. I think the whole aspect of building up the team, as opposed to sometimes you get a leader who has a tendency to tear down the team when things don't go right. But those gentlemen, Tommy and Ron, [and] Bill, they have a tendency to build up the team and build up the morale. That's probably it.

[Assistant] That’s a good thought. Is there anything else that you can think you'd like to add?

[User] I think we covered most of it.

[Assistant] All right. I can give you a minute. I don't want to rush you.

[User] I think we talked about a little bit, the creation of those councils in the Shuttle Program. Earlier in the Shuttle Program, there was certainly a lot of friction between the Centers, Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], Kennedy, and Johnson. The relationships, I thought, were horrible in some cases. The creation of those councils really went a long way to improve those relationships and got the Centers working together much better. I thought that was critical, too. I think that's it. I think we talked about all my key points.

[Assistant] All right. I thank you, and I wish you the best of luck in taking care of those issues before they become problems.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyplace you want.

[Assistant] And work our way up.\n\n You said when you first came to NASA that things on the lunar module were going pretty slowly. How far in development was the LM, particularly the crew station layout, the things you're working on, when you first started working on that? What kind of concepts were there and what sort of physical mechanism was there?

[User] Well, I was assigned to the lunar module as soon as I came, and I got here about April of '63. That's when I moved in to NASA. Had to find my bearings there, who I'm working with, who else is where, what was going on. We started to make the contacts at Grumman at that time. The first true thing that we saw in Grumman was the mockup in September of '63.

[Assistant] Is it the M-1 mockup?

[User] Yes, I think it's called M-1. That's when, I think, all of NASA got exposed to what was going on. People from the Cape were there, Washington, everybody was there. We saw then what was starting to shape up as the lunar module. So when I say, you know, things hadn't gone too far, I hadn't seen anything until the M-1. I was working not only that program, but I was also working some of the Gemini stuff at the same time. So I'd say slow, it wasn't all that slow, but anytime you're building hardware or designing hardware, it doesn't go fast. It takes years.

[Assistant] Since you brought up Gemini, you'd mentioned some of the work with Gemini VIII and working a little bit on the crew cabin. Can you elaborate on how much involvement you did have with that program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was one of the things that we did, was put in the lever up there, that strap.

[Assistant] As a result of that?

[User] Yes, sir. It was the first thing. That was a surprise. I remember Neil Armstrong and his flight checking that and checking it twice, and in the altitude chamber he'd check it again.

[Assistant] Well, at least he didn't have as much trouble as [Alexei] Leonov did on the Russian flight where he couldn't get it closed without deflating his suit some.

[User] Yes. It's a tough thing that, you know, that you think it's going to work and it doesn't.

[Assistant] You mentioned how relevant some of these things were to Apollo. Could you maybe explain a little bit of what some of these other lessons were from Gemini that were directly applicable to Apollo, and maybe what were some new areas that you had to think about for the lunar program that didn't really have any comparison with Gemini, or maybe some things that you learned that you didn't want to do in the second program that you had done earlier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, the airlock was included in the very beginning to do EVA. That was going to be part of the task of buildings space stations or handling payloads, or doing those other things. Now, a lot of the payloads don't require EVA, but every payload has a presumption that EVA is required in case something fails. So that's all built in.\n\n I guess the first one that required EVA was the telescope. That was to be serviced. The others were not to be serviced. But every payload that went up there can be handled by a man, every one of them, in some fashion.

[Assistant] This time I am out of questions. But I did want to let you have an opportunity to make any final remarks or any other stories that come to mind before we wrap it up.

[User] No. I won't keep you any longer. [Laughter] You can all go home.

[Assistant] Well, our work day's not over just yet. So we're happy to stick around if there's anything else you'd like to add.

[User] I don't have anything in particular. I think it's an interesting program. I'd sure like to see the whole thing some time.

[Assistant] Well, it's a pretty big project so far. So there's a lot to see. I want to take the time to say thanks for coming in this afternoon and spending these few hours with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I won't keep you any longer. [Laughter] You can all go home.

[Assistant] Well, our work day's not over just yet. So we're happy to stick around if there's anything else you'd like to add.

[User] I don't have anything in particular. I think it's an interesting program. I'd sure like to see the whole thing some time.

[Assistant] Well, it's a pretty big project so far. So there's a lot to see. I want to take the time to say thanks for coming in this afternoon and spending these few hours with us.

[User] Well, I enjoyed it. I haven't talked about this in ten years.

[Assistant] Well, we're glad you liked it.