[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The basic thing is who’s in charge and who they listen to I think. Read the Herb Angel thing. Records Management, that was an innovation that was prompted in part by the war but some of the thinking about it happened in the thirties before the war and you’ll see that more as you read the Angel thing.

[Assistant] The Herb Angel transcript?

[User] Right. You had a management with a lot of bright people and let the bright people go do their thing. The microfilm publication program is from the same era and some of the same people. Then both the microfilm program and the records management program got pushes later on that caused more innovation and sometimes it was external things that prompted the pushes but the archives were ahead of the games in a lot of ways. I can't think of ways that it's been ahead of the game for a long time.

[Assistant] In conclusion is there anything that you’d like to add before we stop the interview?

[User] No but there are a couple of things I’ll add after we stop the interview.

[Assistant] Thank you very much Mr. Scroggins. It’s been wonderful for you to take us back and to add to the history of the National Archives. It’s very important and I think your honesty will be appreciated by generations to come.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but this is where my memory starts to fail me. John McCarthy was in charge of quite a number of people, probably about up to 1,000 people, back in the early phases of Apollo, in North American Aviation, and we worked closely with him. We worked closely with others in my little element of guidance, navigation, and control, worked closely with Bob Antletz. I really have to look at an employee list to be able to remember all the other names.

[Assistant] Did you work much with people from MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] in your position?

[User] Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, Aaron Cohen—Paul Ebersole was in charge of the guidance and navigation part of the Apollo Program, which was a large subsystem, but important subsystem designed by MIT, and later the manufacturing of the system was awarded to A.C. Electronics. We worked closely with Paul Ebersole. We worked closely with Aaron Cohen, who was the guidance and navigations, I think, subsystem manager for Apollo, and he would come out frequently to Downey, and we'd go back to the subsystem meetings back at Houston.\n\n Honeywell had the stabilization and control system, so we would go back occasionally to Honeywell to see how that was going on in support of the subsystem manager. I can't remember who the subsystem manager was in Houston, but they were excellent people. We were really privileged to work with such a good bunch as we had.

[Assistant] In 1965, General [Samuel C.] Phillips came out with the Phillips report which was never officially published. Were you aware of it at that time?

[User] In '65 a report on what?

[Assistant] General Sam Phillips' report?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, Aaron Cohen—Paul Ebersole was in charge of the guidance and navigation part of the Apollo Program, which was a large subsystem, but important subsystem designed by MIT, and later the manufacturing of the system was awarded to A.C. Electronics. We worked closely with Paul Ebersole. We worked closely with Aaron Cohen, who was the guidance and navigations, I think, subsystem manager for Apollo, and he would come out frequently to Downey, and we'd go back to the subsystem meetings back at Houston.\n\n Honeywell had the stabilization and control system, so we would go back occasionally to Honeywell to see how that was going on in support of the subsystem manager. I can't remember who the subsystem manager was in Houston, but they were excellent people. We were really privileged to work with such a good bunch as we had.

[Assistant] In 1965, General [Samuel C.] Phillips came out with the Phillips report which was never officially published. Were you aware of it at that time?

[User] In '65 a report on what?

[Assistant] General Sam Phillips' report?

[User] I'm trying to think. I vaguely remember that report, but my recollection of Sam Phillips was at one of our management reviews at Downey when Dr. [Joseph F.] Shea, Joe Shea, was holding forth at the podium explaining how the program was progressing. Sam Phillips was in the audience. At the completion of Dr. Shea's pitch, General Phillips said, "Joe, you should have been on the stage. You'd have been a great actor." [Laughter] There was a certain amount of rivalry between the two. But I can't recall the report you mention.

[Assistant] When the Apollo fire occurred, you had a unique perspective because you were a NASA person at Downey. From your perspective, how did that fire affect personnel at that facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were delighted when the mission for Apollo 8 was changed so that it became a circumlunar mission, because it was a bold move and a bit of a gamble, but it allowed evaluation of the guidance and navigation system in one of its most demanding roles and also to come back in at circumlunar return velocity of 36,000 feet per second. That was a great test. We had reentered—I think it was Boilerplate 20, 17 and 20, came in at or close to simulated lunar reentry speed, but this was the first time we were doing it, coming back from the Moon and with [men] inside. So, yes, it was an amazing and a most satisfying result. It was a great mission, and, of course, it had public relations impact, too.

[Assistant] Speaking of public relations impact, Apollo 11 was soon to follow. Do you remember where you were for Apollo 11?

[User] Yes. I can't remember exactly. I was in and out of—we had a mission support room at Downey, and the role of a mission support was to support the Mission Control Center in Houston. It was in communication with the spacecraft at the Cape and also, of course, the Launch Control Center, the Mission Control Center and the vehicle, once it got into orbit or on its route around the Moon. I can't recall if I was in the mission support room for the actual landing. I really can't remember where I was, but I do remember watching on television either in the mission support room or back at home. We worked shifts in the mission support room, you know, twenty-four-hour work, and you felt you were being closely involved.

[Assistant] Did you continue to work in the mission support rooms for subsequent Apollo missions?

[User] Either I or others were in it. We took shifts, yes, for all the Apollo missions.

[Assistant] But Apollo 12, at launch the vehicle was struck by lightning. Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I can't remember exactly. I was in and out of—we had a mission support room at Downey, and the role of a mission support was to support the Mission Control Center in Houston. It was in communication with the spacecraft at the Cape and also, of course, the Launch Control Center, the Mission Control Center and the vehicle, once it got into orbit or on its route around the Moon. I can't recall if I was in the mission support room for the actual landing. I really can't remember where I was, but I do remember watching on television either in the mission support room or back at home. We worked shifts in the mission support room, you know, twenty-four-hour work, and you felt you were being closely involved.

[Assistant] Did you continue to work in the mission support rooms for subsequent Apollo missions?

[User] Either I or others were in it. We took shifts, yes, for all the Apollo missions.

[Assistant] But Apollo 12, at launch the vehicle was struck by lightning. Do you remember that?

[User] Oh, yes. That was the first and biggest lightning test we had, and I guess there was a lot of uncertainty as to how well it would come out of it. We were all gratified to know it recovered. Incidentally, that triggered thorough—as thorough as we could—lightning tests on the Space Shuttle Program to make sure that we were anticipating a similar kind of problem.

[Assistant] The next mission was Apollo 13. What kind of mission support were you involved in for that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Either I or others were in it. We took shifts, yes, for all the Apollo missions.

[Assistant] But Apollo 12, at launch the vehicle was struck by lightning. Do you remember that?

[User] Oh, yes. That was the first and biggest lightning test we had, and I guess there was a lot of uncertainty as to how well it would come out of it. We were all gratified to know it recovered. Incidentally, that triggered thorough—as thorough as we could—lightning tests on the Space Shuttle Program to make sure that we were anticipating a similar kind of problem.

[Assistant] The next mission was Apollo 13. What kind of mission support were you involved in for that mission?

[User] Well, Apollo 13, it was North American who were manning the mission support room and providing help to Houston, as required for the work-arounds, but the main role in coming up [with] the work-arounds was performed by Houston, the Mission Control Center supported by the subsystem managers and the engineering division down in Houston. Rockwell participated, too, and I can't recall just exactly how. It was [mainly] in the environmental control system, in [confirming] the proposed work-arounds that Houston were coming up with: the control of the carbon dioxide partial pressure and other problems, the heating, how to keep warm enough. It was a great combined team effort, and we were just there in a support role.\n\n One thing I should mention about Apollo 13—I think I sent you a copy—after the mission and the safe return of the crew, Grumman [builder of the lunar module] sent an invoice to North American for towing the spacecraft back to the Earth. It was nice to have that little light side to what was a near tragic affair.

[Assistant] That's true. After the Review Board investigated the Apollo 13 incident, did that cause any major changes at North American [unclear]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No major changes. There was close scrutiny, of course, of the oxygen tank in which the wire had been damaged, so there was an investigation into the design of that and any necessary redesigns, but after the cause had been thoroughly established, that was the extent. I'm trying to think if there were any other ramifications. No, I think it was mainly control to the cryogenic system, limited to the cryogenic system.

[Assistant] Are there any other Apollo missions that stand out in your mind or any impact on you?

[User] Well, of course, Apollo 11 was the biggest, 13 because of the near tragic accident. Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] hitting a golf ball on the Moon [Apollo 14], and, of course, Apollo-Soyuz, the Apollo joining up with the Soyuz spacecraft. I guess each one had its own element of thrill about it. The Apollo command and service module's docking with the Skylab and their amazing—their repair work, the canopy they put over the separated micrometeoroid shield and making it a habitable successful spacecraft. Technically, it was very interesting and fascinating.

[Assistant] For Skylab, you went to McDonnell-Douglas [Corp.] to oversee the orbital workshop.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] As you mentioned earlier. How was this experience different than working with North American?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, Apollo 11 was the biggest, 13 because of the near tragic accident. Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.] hitting a golf ball on the Moon [Apollo 14], and, of course, Apollo-Soyuz, the Apollo joining up with the Soyuz spacecraft. I guess each one had its own element of thrill about it. The Apollo command and service module's docking with the Skylab and their amazing—their repair work, the canopy they put over the separated micrometeoroid shield and making it a habitable successful spacecraft. Technically, it was very interesting and fascinating.

[Assistant] For Skylab, you went to McDonnell-Douglas [Corp.] to oversee the orbital workshop.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] As you mentioned earlier. How was this experience different than working with North American?

[User] McDonnell-Douglas had not worked on a manned spacecraft before. I don't think they had had the close on-site presence of NASA personnel before, looking over their shoulder. So that was a little change. There were some improvements in the way the test procedures were written, and Houston and the resident office at Downey were able to help in that respect. They hadn't worked with astronauts before. Of course, the astronauts they were working with were very smart cookies. They could ask all the questions that needed to be asked, and I think this was a learning process for McDonnell-Douglas. But we got along very well with the contractor, as we did with North American, once they realized that we were there to help, not to be a problem.

[Assistant] What were some of the milestones in this development of the orbital workshop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] As you mentioned earlier. How was this experience different than working with North American?

[User] McDonnell-Douglas had not worked on a manned spacecraft before. I don't think they had had the close on-site presence of NASA personnel before, looking over their shoulder. So that was a little change. There were some improvements in the way the test procedures were written, and Houston and the resident office at Downey were able to help in that respect. They hadn't worked with astronauts before. Of course, the astronauts they were working with were very smart cookies. They could ask all the questions that needed to be asked, and I think this was a learning process for McDonnell-Douglas. But we got along very well with the contractor, as we did with North American, once they realized that we were there to help, not to be a problem.

[Assistant] What were some of the milestones in this development of the orbital workshop?

[User] Well, the first [milestone], of course, [was] the recovery from the loss of the micrometeoroid shield and then the progressively longer stays in orbit, I think the milestone was technically the relative sophistication of the spacecraft, the ability to sit at a wardroom table and heat up your food, to have a toilet which was … almost like one on Earth, to have an exercise machine you could pedal away on, and then the innovation of getting their exercise by running around the lockers at the top of the workshop. Technically it was a great step forward.

[Assistant] After Skylab, did you have some involvement in the Apollo-Soyuz mission, the docking mechanism or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] McDonnell-Douglas had not worked on a manned spacecraft before. I don't think they had had the close on-site presence of NASA personnel before, looking over their shoulder. So that was a little change. There were some improvements in the way the test procedures were written, and Houston and the resident office at Downey were able to help in that respect. They hadn't worked with astronauts before. Of course, the astronauts they were working with were very smart cookies. They could ask all the questions that needed to be asked, and I think this was a learning process for McDonnell-Douglas. But we got along very well with the contractor, as we did with North American, once they realized that we were there to help, not to be a problem.

[Assistant] What were some of the milestones in this development of the orbital workshop?

[User] Well, the first [milestone], of course, [was] the recovery from the loss of the micrometeoroid shield and then the progressively longer stays in orbit, I think the milestone was technically the relative sophistication of the spacecraft, the ability to sit at a wardroom table and heat up your food, to have a toilet which was … almost like one on Earth, to have an exercise machine you could pedal away on, and then the innovation of getting their exercise by running around the lockers at the top of the workshop. Technically it was a great step forward.

[Assistant] After Skylab, did you have some involvement in the Apollo-Soyuz mission, the docking mechanism or anything?

[User] Not really, because—well, other than, as I say, our limited support role in the mission support room for the Apollo-Soyuz. And I say "we." It was primarily North American who were manning the mission support room, and we were there in an oversight capacity, and also I was down at McDonnell-Douglas during the time that [those] command and service modules were being made and tested at Downey. So when I came back, I think it was about to be delivered down to the Cape.

[Assistant] And then you went into the Shuttle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the first [milestone], of course, [was] the recovery from the loss of the micrometeoroid shield and then the progressively longer stays in orbit, I think the milestone was technically the relative sophistication of the spacecraft, the ability to sit at a wardroom table and heat up your food, to have a toilet which was … almost like one on Earth, to have an exercise machine you could pedal away on, and then the innovation of getting their exercise by running around the lockers at the top of the workshop. Technically it was a great step forward.

[Assistant] After Skylab, did you have some involvement in the Apollo-Soyuz mission, the docking mechanism or anything?

[User] Not really, because—well, other than, as I say, our limited support role in the mission support room for the Apollo-Soyuz. And I say "we." It was primarily North American who were manning the mission support room, and we were there in an oversight capacity, and also I was down at McDonnell-Douglas during the time that [those] command and service modules were being made and tested at Downey. So when I came back, I think it was about to be delivered down to the Cape.

[Assistant] And then you went into the Shuttle.

[User] [On] to the Shuttle, yes.

[Assistant] Did you work on any of the preliminary designs for Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really, because—well, other than, as I say, our limited support role in the mission support room for the Apollo-Soyuz. And I say "we." It was primarily North American who were manning the mission support room, and we were there in an oversight capacity, and also I was down at McDonnell-Douglas during the time that [those] command and service modules were being made and tested at Downey. So when I came back, I think it was about to be delivered down to the Cape.

[Assistant] And then you went into the Shuttle.

[User] [On] to the Shuttle, yes.

[Assistant] Did you work on any of the preliminary designs for Shuttle?

[User] We followed them, and there were some study contracts that Rockwell had been working on, and again, I think I was down at McDonnell-Douglas when the study contracts were under way. By the time I came back in [19]'72, they were busy on the request for proposals, but we didn't get involved in the evaluation of those. As the design evolved after the contract award, yes, we became familiar with those in the course of the subsystem meetings, which were handled a little differently from the Apollo Program, but they still had meetings, more so at Downey than at Houston, but at both places.

[Assistant] What were some of the challenges that you ran into during the development of Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [On] to the Shuttle, yes.

[Assistant] Did you work on any of the preliminary designs for Shuttle?

[User] We followed them, and there were some study contracts that Rockwell had been working on, and again, I think I was down at McDonnell-Douglas when the study contracts were under way. By the time I came back in [19]'72, they were busy on the request for proposals, but we didn't get involved in the evaluation of those. As the design evolved after the contract award, yes, we became familiar with those in the course of the subsystem meetings, which were handled a little differently from the Apollo Program, but they still had meetings, more so at Downey than at Houston, but at both places.

[Assistant] What were some of the challenges that you ran into during the development of Shuttle?

[User] Design was not our forte, of course. We were in kind of a remote mode, helping as we could in how the design affected the way we could test it and build it. The design problems, as I recall, were the aerodynamics of a very swept-back delta coming in through the atmosphere and the heating of the thermal protection system [tiles]. The thermal protection system perhaps was the biggest unknown. They had the capability to test aerodynamically up to fairly high mach numbers, but there was still a gap between the highest mach number that could be tested and the mach number for entry from orbit.\n\n So that was a big unknown, and on the command module it was an ablative thermal protection system and not reusable. In other words, you were burning off some of your protection system as you came in. This was designed to be a reusable protection system, and we weren't even sure if the tiles would stay on, or how many tiles you could lose and still come back in. I think those were the two biggest problems that I recall. Again, we were not design authority. We were just helping out.

[Assistant] What were some of the differences between working on the Apollo Program at North American and then working on Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The latter part of the time I was in the resident office, we were testing out the Russian docking mechanism with the docking module that NASA and Rockwell designed and put together, and we had some Russians who were working with us on that. So it was from a fabrication—overseeing the fabrication of it and the testing and the mated testing that we got involved in. That was the extent.

[Assistant] As you look over your career, you've basically been involved in the space industry since the beginning. What do you consider your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Well, just making it this far, staying alive. No, I'd like to think that, again, it's not just myself, it's as a member of the team, as a member of the acceptance and check-out team, Rockwell-NASA, helping to produce or confirm the satisfactory production of all the orbiters, the\n\n Enterprise\n\n and the five space orbiters. I think that was the biggest contribution that I and the rest of the team had.

[Assistant] What do you feel was your greatest challenge during your career?

[User] Well, I'm not sure I can pin down any one challenge. In a resident office, you have to be adaptable. You move around. I came out first, as I mentioned, as the resident engineer for guidance, navigation, and control, and then you have to fill the roles that they want you to fill as time changes. For a while I was heading up a quality engineering office, test planning and analysis office, and then systems engineering office. Each one was a little challenge in itself, but I honestly can't say that any one was bigger than the rest.

[Assistant] Having seen so much of the progress in space, what do you see for the future of space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just making it this far, staying alive. No, I'd like to think that, again, it's not just myself, it's as a member of the team, as a member of the acceptance and check-out team, Rockwell-NASA, helping to produce or confirm the satisfactory production of all the orbiters, the\n\n Enterprise\n\n and the five space orbiters. I think that was the biggest contribution that I and the rest of the team had.

[Assistant] What do you feel was your greatest challenge during your career?

[User] Well, I'm not sure I can pin down any one challenge. In a resident office, you have to be adaptable. You move around. I came out first, as I mentioned, as the resident engineer for guidance, navigation, and control, and then you have to fill the roles that they want you to fill as time changes. For a while I was heading up a quality engineering office, test planning and analysis office, and then systems engineering office. Each one was a little challenge in itself, but I honestly can't say that any one was bigger than the rest.

[Assistant] Having seen so much of the progress in space, what do you see for the future of space?

[User] I think it certainly has a significant future. There's no backing off from participating in space exploration. I think a lot more because of the technological advances that we've already seen with that little robot [Sojourner] on the planet Mars, there's going to be perhaps more advancement in unmanned mission than there are in manned missions.\n\n But the Space Station has a definite role to perform. If nothing else, it's this wonderful achievement of cooperation between umpteen nations to help design, to build, and to man it. It will be many years before we get a manned mission to Mars, but I think that's inevitable in the long run. We just have to become maybe a lot smarter in how to build vehicles, manned vehicles, [to] go there, and come back. But it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

[Assistant] That basically covers most of my questions. Is there anything that I've left out that you would like to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I planned to stay, and I had some weird notion, as youngsters do, of staying a while but then moving on and going to Australia and being in an auxiliary squadron there, and maybe South Africa. My goals were a little pie-in-the-sky at that time, but things worked out differently and, it turns out, for the better. [Tape interruption.]

[Assistant] To tie in with what Rebecca was just talking about and you moving into AVRO and you said at the time you had goals of maybe going on to Australia or South Africa, yet in the end you went off in a completely different direction. Did you ever imagine that you could become involved with the space program or going to the Moon?

[User] No way. [Laughter] You get involved in what you're doing, and aircraft was my thing at that time. I just hadn't a concept for space. We didn't know at the time how useful spacecraft could be, satellites or manned spacecraft. No. It was quite a surprise, and it wouldn't have been my first choice. If I'd had the opportunity to stay and work at AVRO, that would have been my first preference, but we didn't have any choice, and I'm very happy that we didn't have any choice. It worked out for the best.

[Assistant] It did work out well.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Throughout the time that you were working with basically the Apollo Program, were you aware of the pressures or the activities, I guess, that was going on with the Soviet Union? Was it a race to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No way. [Laughter] You get involved in what you're doing, and aircraft was my thing at that time. I just hadn't a concept for space. We didn't know at the time how useful spacecraft could be, satellites or manned spacecraft. No. It was quite a surprise, and it wouldn't have been my first choice. If I'd had the opportunity to stay and work at AVRO, that would have been my first preference, but we didn't have any choice, and I'm very happy that we didn't have any choice. It worked out for the best.

[Assistant] It did work out well.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Throughout the time that you were working with basically the Apollo Program, were you aware of the pressures or the activities, I guess, that was going on with the Soviet Union? Was it a race to you?

[User] Oh, yes. We were kept informed as well as one can be through magazines like Aviation Week, and even NASA kept us informed as best we knew, but our intelligence wasn't that good of what really was happening in Russia. So we didn't know the problems they were having in getting a launch vehicle that could safely get them up and to the Moon. So, as far as we were concerned, it was quite a race, yes.

[Assistant] Here you were racing them for a large portion of your career with NASA, and then yet later, even though you didn't work directly on it, you saw Apollo-Soyuz come, and then even later you saw the work with the Shuttle-Mir Program and us docking with them. So relations certainly changed over time. Again, would you have imagined, while you were working on the Apollo Program, that someone who was our competitor so severely at one point would then be a partner later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my emotions are, it's sad to see changes, but changes have happened over the years. You go back to the early automobile manufacturers. There were lots of them, and then they consolidated and merged or just went out of business. It seems to be inevitable in the field of technology that bigger is better as long as you stay efficient. Boeing is going to be our only source of commercial airplanes, big commercial airplanes, and AirBus [Industrie] is the only European source of commercial airplanes. They're it. It's sad, but it seems to be inevitable. And consolidation, as long as it's done efficiently, can keep us a step ahead of the next guy. It's a global economy now, and you have to do that.

[Assistant] Somewhat along similar lines, the USA [United Space Alliance, Boeing and Lockheed] has taken on a new role with the Space Shuttle. Do you have any views on that and how that affects the way things run? Is that a good way, a bad way?

[User] It can be a good way to do things, providing your personnel are well trained. It's another form of NASA backing off a little bit from the close involvement which is their historical way of operating, but I think Boeing (and initially … Rockwell) and Lockheed, they pooled their experienced personnel. It was a good utilization of both companies' trained personnel, and I think it could be—I think it's a good move.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully we'll see that continue well into the future.

[User] We hope so.

[Assistant] Mr. Ewart, those early days of NASA, things were going so fast and moving ahead so forward to get so much accomplished, one of the common threads that we've heard from people like you is that teamwork is what made it happen. Do you agree with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It can be a good way to do things, providing your personnel are well trained. It's another form of NASA backing off a little bit from the close involvement which is their historical way of operating, but I think Boeing (and initially … Rockwell) and Lockheed, they pooled their experienced personnel. It was a good utilization of both companies' trained personnel, and I think it could be—I think it's a good move.

[Assistant] Well, hopefully we'll see that continue well into the future.

[User] We hope so.

[Assistant] Mr. Ewart, those early days of NASA, things were going so fast and moving ahead so forward to get so much accomplished, one of the common threads that we've heard from people like you is that teamwork is what made it happen. Do you agree with that?

[User] You bet. Oh, yes. That's why it's so essential to achieve a level of confidence in both contractor and NASA, contractors, subcontractors, and NASA, that mutual trust and respect and understanding of each one's roles. When you get a team made up of those kind of people with those kind of attitudes, you're pretty likely to succeed.

[Assistant] We thank you so much for sharing with us. We really enjoyed it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We hope so.

[Assistant] Mr. Ewart, those early days of NASA, things were going so fast and moving ahead so forward to get so much accomplished, one of the common threads that we've heard from people like you is that teamwork is what made it happen. Do you agree with that?

[User] You bet. Oh, yes. That's why it's so essential to achieve a level of confidence in both contractor and NASA, contractors, subcontractors, and NASA, that mutual trust and respect and understanding of each one's roles. When you get a team made up of those kind of people with those kind of attitudes, you're pretty likely to succeed.

[Assistant] We thank you so much for sharing with us. We really enjoyed it.

[User] It's very nice to have you folk here and shoot the breeze.

[Assistant] Now that you've retired officially, are you still active, other than going to dinners [unclear] team members?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, right now I'm the Milwaukee County Treasurer, Milwaukee County government. It's an elected position. I'm still married to my wife Ann, we were in the Peace Corps together in Chile from 1969 to '71. We went down there together right after we got married. And we have three children, three girls, one of whom also worked in housing construction, self-help housing construction in the United States and with Habitat for Humanity for two years as an AmeriCorps volunteer.

[Assistant] Ok. Do you want to elaborate on your interests or anything?

[User] I guess that's good enough for now.

[Assistant] Ok, now kind of think back to the year before that, you joined the Peace Corps and talk about what life was like then. You can include your childhood, education, or other experiences.

[User] Well, I was influenced a lot by John F. Kennedy when I was in high school. He was elected in 1960. He was killed in 1963. I went to college in '65 and I graduated in '69. When Kennedy started the Peace Corps back when I was in high school, I actually sent an application and I was still a high school kid. I was so enthralled by the idea of just going out there and making a difference in the world. They wrote me back a nice letter saying that I should wait until I went on to college and got some skills and abilities that they thought I could contribute. So I was always thinking about joining the Peace Corps all through my college days. And when I met my wife, my future wife Ann, we talked about it and we decided to join together. So we applied back in, like in the fall of 1968 and got accepted to go to Chile in June of '69. We got married about two weeks before that and we went off to Chile.

[Assistant] So basically you heard about it through Kennedy and you wanted to see what you can do to change the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess that's good enough for now.

[Assistant] Ok, now kind of think back to the year before that, you joined the Peace Corps and talk about what life was like then. You can include your childhood, education, or other experiences.

[User] Well, I was influenced a lot by John F. Kennedy when I was in high school. He was elected in 1960. He was killed in 1963. I went to college in '65 and I graduated in '69. When Kennedy started the Peace Corps back when I was in high school, I actually sent an application and I was still a high school kid. I was so enthralled by the idea of just going out there and making a difference in the world. They wrote me back a nice letter saying that I should wait until I went on to college and got some skills and abilities that they thought I could contribute. So I was always thinking about joining the Peace Corps all through my college days. And when I met my wife, my future wife Ann, we talked about it and we decided to join together. So we applied back in, like in the fall of 1968 and got accepted to go to Chile in June of '69. We got married about two weeks before that and we went off to Chile.

[Assistant] So basically you heard about it through Kennedy and you wanted to see what you can do to change the world.

[User] Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Idealistic candidate.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was influenced a lot by John F. Kennedy when I was in high school. He was elected in 1960. He was killed in 1963. I went to college in '65 and I graduated in '69. When Kennedy started the Peace Corps back when I was in high school, I actually sent an application and I was still a high school kid. I was so enthralled by the idea of just going out there and making a difference in the world. They wrote me back a nice letter saying that I should wait until I went on to college and got some skills and abilities that they thought I could contribute. So I was always thinking about joining the Peace Corps all through my college days. And when I met my wife, my future wife Ann, we talked about it and we decided to join together. So we applied back in, like in the fall of 1968 and got accepted to go to Chile in June of '69. We got married about two weeks before that and we went off to Chile.

[Assistant] So basically you heard about it through Kennedy and you wanted to see what you can do to change the world.

[User] Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Idealistic candidate.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?

[User] I really didn't, no. But I was happy when I got assigned to South America, to Chile. It was an exciting time. The 60s, you know, I was very active in some of the anti-war movements and cultural changes, some community organizing. And South America was, all over the world things are going on. In Europe, they had a lot of things going on in China and South America. Chile was one of the few democracies in South America at the time, and I was really looking forward to just going down there and just learning. I was also an international studies major in college, so I'd studied Chile and a lot of South American countries. And I had taken some Spanish so was glad to be building that foundation.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your friends' and families' reactions when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation or reservations, either on your part or their part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess so, yeah. Idealistic candidate.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind when you applied?

[User] I really didn't, no. But I was happy when I got assigned to South America, to Chile. It was an exciting time. The 60s, you know, I was very active in some of the anti-war movements and cultural changes, some community organizing. And South America was, all over the world things are going on. In Europe, they had a lot of things going on in China and South America. Chile was one of the few democracies in South America at the time, and I was really looking forward to just going down there and just learning. I was also an international studies major in college, so I'd studied Chile and a lot of South American countries. And I had taken some Spanish so was glad to be building that foundation.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your friends' and families' reactions when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation or reservations, either on your part or their part?

[User] Oh, I guess they all knew I wanted to go, and I think some people thought I was just kind of losing a couple of years of my life. My dad was wondering why I spent two years in the Peace Corps earning nothing and not getting a late start on my career. But other than that, I think people were pretty supportive.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think a lot of people had that same thing. You know, why are you just kissing away two years? But really, it contributed in the long run to a lot more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really didn't, no. But I was happy when I got assigned to South America, to Chile. It was an exciting time. The 60s, you know, I was very active in some of the anti-war movements and cultural changes, some community organizing. And South America was, all over the world things are going on. In Europe, they had a lot of things going on in China and South America. Chile was one of the few democracies in South America at the time, and I was really looking forward to just going down there and just learning. I was also an international studies major in college, so I'd studied Chile and a lot of South American countries. And I had taken some Spanish so was glad to be building that foundation.

[Assistant] Okay. What were your friends' and families' reactions when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation or reservations, either on your part or their part?

[User] Oh, I guess they all knew I wanted to go, and I think some people thought I was just kind of losing a couple of years of my life. My dad was wondering why I spent two years in the Peace Corps earning nothing and not getting a late start on my career. But other than that, I think people were pretty supportive.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think a lot of people had that same thing. You know, why are you just kissing away two years? But really, it contributed in the long run to a lot more.

[User] It really made me who I am and really defined who I am. And it's interesting because, you know, you don't really realize how it shapes you until later when you reflect on and you think.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think you're right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I guess they all knew I wanted to go, and I think some people thought I was just kind of losing a couple of years of my life. My dad was wondering why I spent two years in the Peace Corps earning nothing and not getting a late start on my career. But other than that, I think people were pretty supportive.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think a lot of people had that same thing. You know, why are you just kissing away two years? But really, it contributed in the long run to a lot more.

[User] It really made me who I am and really defined who I am. And it's interesting because, you know, you don't really realize how it shapes you until later when you reflect on and you think.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think you're right there.

[User] And you know, it's still the sixties as a Peace Corps is fairly young in the 60s, it is pretty exciting and the whole idea of make a difference, join the Peace Corps. It was really kind of a feeling a lot of people had about the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay, what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really made me who I am and really defined who I am. And it's interesting because, you know, you don't really realize how it shapes you until later when you reflect on and you think.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think you're right there.

[User] And you know, it's still the sixties as a Peace Corps is fairly young in the 60s, it is pretty exciting and the whole idea of make a difference, join the Peace Corps. It was really kind of a feeling a lot of people had about the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay, what project were you invited to join?

[User] So, you know, we were invited to join. When we were invited to join the Peace Corps, we got married and we went down there and we were, I think three days in Washington, D.C., and went right down to Chile. All our training was in-country. I had worked construction during my college years. That was my knowledge of construction. They sent us to a Chilean technical school for three months. We're learning their construction techniques and their language and learning how to swear in Spanish, which is essential to a construction site. And I went down. I was assigned to a self-help housing project where people built their own houses right in the outskirts of Santiago. These were projects that were done throughout Chile. I got assigned to near the airport, Pudahuel, on the outskirts of Santiago.

[Assistant] Did you do anything to prepare yourself for leaving the U.S. for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, it's still the sixties as a Peace Corps is fairly young in the 60s, it is pretty exciting and the whole idea of make a difference, join the Peace Corps. It was really kind of a feeling a lot of people had about the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Okay, what project were you invited to join?

[User] So, you know, we were invited to join. When we were invited to join the Peace Corps, we got married and we went down there and we were, I think three days in Washington, D.C., and went right down to Chile. All our training was in-country. I had worked construction during my college years. That was my knowledge of construction. They sent us to a Chilean technical school for three months. We're learning their construction techniques and their language and learning how to swear in Spanish, which is essential to a construction site. And I went down. I was assigned to a self-help housing project where people built their own houses right in the outskirts of Santiago. These were projects that were done throughout Chile. I got assigned to near the airport, Pudahuel, on the outskirts of Santiago.

[Assistant] Did you do anything to prepare yourself for leaving the U.S. for two years?

[User] I got my wisdom teeth pulled and got all my shots and off we went. No, I didn't really prepare.

[Assistant] Ok. Talk about the training a little. Tell me like where it was, something about the faculty, syllabus, technical studies, the reaction to other people training, language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they found out when they send single American volunteers to be instructors on the housing sites that sometimes they got girlfriends. But the women were all married there, so it was kind of disruptive to the site. So they said to send married couples so. The woman's job wasn't always as clear as the men's job. I was an instructor teaching people how to build their own houses, and my wife's job was to work with the social worker and work in the school there. Much, much less structured than mine was.

[Assistant] Uh, okay. What was your reaction to the other trainees and, uh, maybe they're going to the selection process?

[User] The selection process was invisible. I have no idea what the selection process was. I applied and I was accepted and I was going. When we got to Washington, D.C., though, they took us on a cruise and we had a couple of social events. And I didn't realize at the time, but they were interviewing us and talking to us, and some people didn't make or were deselected in those three days and weren't sent down to the country. I think there may have been a couple of volunteers during the training process that actually got deselected, but most of us were pretty carefully selected before we went down there.

[Assistant] So they didn't really deselect many before you left?

[User] Right. Yeah, because there wasn't any time. I mean, it wasn't like you trained for a month in the States and then went down.

[Assistant] So your group stayed together pretty much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The selection process was invisible. I have no idea what the selection process was. I applied and I was accepted and I was going. When we got to Washington, D.C., though, they took us on a cruise and we had a couple of social events. And I didn't realize at the time, but they were interviewing us and talking to us, and some people didn't make or were deselected in those three days and weren't sent down to the country. I think there may have been a couple of volunteers during the training process that actually got deselected, but most of us were pretty carefully selected before we went down there.

[Assistant] So they didn't really deselect many before you left?

[User] Right. Yeah, because there wasn't any time. I mean, it wasn't like you trained for a month in the States and then went down.

[Assistant] So your group stayed together pretty much.

[User] Pretty much so.

[Assistant] Because we lost half of our group. We started out with a hundred and ended up with 50. And we didn't know until two days before we were going and who was going to go and who wasn't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Yeah, because there wasn't any time. I mean, it wasn't like you trained for a month in the States and then went down.

[Assistant] So your group stayed together pretty much.

[User] Pretty much so.

[Assistant] Because we lost half of our group. We started out with a hundred and ended up with 50. And we didn't know until two days before we were going and who was going to go and who wasn't.

[User] Oh my god, what a stressful thing.

[Assistant] Upsetting. We didn't get a chance to go home or anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much so.

[Assistant] Because we lost half of our group. We started out with a hundred and ended up with 50. And we didn't know until two days before we were going and who was going to go and who wasn't.

[User] Oh my god, what a stressful thing.

[Assistant] Upsetting. We didn't get a chance to go home or anything.

[User] Where were you trained?

[Assistant] Uh, Portland, Oregon. Ok. Were there any surprises or disappointments or enjoyments during your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh my god, what a stressful thing.

[Assistant] Upsetting. We didn't get a chance to go home or anything.

[User] Where were you trained?

[Assistant] Uh, Portland, Oregon. Ok. Were there any surprises or disappointments or enjoyments during your training?

[User] Well, you know, there were a couple of accusations that we were American spies being trained for Chile and we were in the newspapers a couple of times in Chile. We had instructors there from the Chilean technical school in construction, and there was a lot of good humor there. They taught us how to build, how the building techniques were in Chile and what was being done. It was a good training process. We built a lot of camaraderie among us, got to know each other. Although we could only speak Spanish during the day, so it really inhibited us for the first month or month and a half or so from even getting to know each other because it's such a rudimentary Spanish that it's difficult to even talk to each other.

[Assistant] I found that I, you know, we practiced, but until I actually got out in the situation. Because I had a partner so I could always speak English. I had to be into, you know,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where were you trained?

[Assistant] Uh, Portland, Oregon. Ok. Were there any surprises or disappointments or enjoyments during your training?

[User] Well, you know, there were a couple of accusations that we were American spies being trained for Chile and we were in the newspapers a couple of times in Chile. We had instructors there from the Chilean technical school in construction, and there was a lot of good humor there. They taught us how to build, how the building techniques were in Chile and what was being done. It was a good training process. We built a lot of camaraderie among us, got to know each other. Although we could only speak Spanish during the day, so it really inhibited us for the first month or month and a half or so from even getting to know each other because it's such a rudimentary Spanish that it's difficult to even talk to each other.

[Assistant] I found that I, you know, we practiced, but until I actually got out in the situation. Because I had a partner so I could always speak English. I had to be into, you know,

[User] I remember I was in Chile about six months. I was walking on the street and there was a guy on the radio was talking about the weather or something going on. And I thought about what he said, and I thought, oh my god, I understood the guy in the radio. Because you know they talk so fast on the radio and I realized I finally could understand, you know, regular conversation and had a grasp of everything people were saying.

[Assistant] Yeah, it took me about six months. I had a headache every night, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, there were a couple of accusations that we were American spies being trained for Chile and we were in the newspapers a couple of times in Chile. We had instructors there from the Chilean technical school in construction, and there was a lot of good humor there. They taught us how to build, how the building techniques were in Chile and what was being done. It was a good training process. We built a lot of camaraderie among us, got to know each other. Although we could only speak Spanish during the day, so it really inhibited us for the first month or month and a half or so from even getting to know each other because it's such a rudimentary Spanish that it's difficult to even talk to each other.

[Assistant] I found that I, you know, we practiced, but until I actually got out in the situation. Because I had a partner so I could always speak English. I had to be into, you know,

[User] I remember I was in Chile about six months. I was walking on the street and there was a guy on the radio was talking about the weather or something going on. And I thought about what he said, and I thought, oh my god, I understood the guy in the radio. Because you know they talk so fast on the radio and I realized I finally could understand, you know, regular conversation and had a grasp of everything people were saying.

[Assistant] Yeah, it took me about six months. I had a headache every night, you know?

[User] Yes, it was six months for me too.

[Assistant] Until it kicked in. Ok. What about your initial? Well, you are already in the country, your reaction to the country. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok. What was the role of language? Was that after six months, you kind of?

[User] Yeah, it took a long time and you know, you're always an expatriate. So there's always certain cultural things and children's stories or doing jokes or history or common experiences they have that you don't have. So you're always learning. The jokes are the hardest. But I sat around a lot in the evening with the other instructors cooking clams over fire and just talking and listening. And it was, it was a good experience, but it was a real challenge for me because I'm not good at languages. I never was good at languages, in high school or in college. My SAT scores show I'm poor in foreign languages. So if I hadn't gone there and learned and spoken every day, I probably would've never learned another language and it served me well in my career.

[Assistant] So where did the clams come from?

[User] Chile is a long, narrow country that has a coastline, you know, from one end to the other. And so they had a lot of seafood, clams, fish, crabs and gosto, which is like a lobster. And they had a lot of lamb and some beef. They had, well, they had two meatless days a week. They call them meatless days, which really meant you couldn't have beef, you could chicken, you know, lamb, fish, everything. But they're trying to get you weaned from meat because they're next to Argentina and the people are so used to eating steaks for breakfast.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Okay. What about the Peace Corps Peace Corps staff? Did you have much contact with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chile is a long, narrow country that has a coastline, you know, from one end to the other. And so they had a lot of seafood, clams, fish, crabs and gosto, which is like a lobster. And they had a lot of lamb and some beef. They had, well, they had two meatless days a week. They call them meatless days, which really meant you couldn't have beef, you could chicken, you know, lamb, fish, everything. But they're trying to get you weaned from meat because they're next to Argentina and the people are so used to eating steaks for breakfast.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Okay. What about the Peace Corps Peace Corps staff? Did you have much contact with them?

[User] You know, we didn't go into town much, but they came out a couple of times just to check on us, and they were very supportive. Anything I needed, they were always there. John Hill, I think, was a director of the country at the time, and the regional director was just a good guy. I always felt like anything I needed, they always were there for us. And the health staff, the nurse there. I just felt I had the support I needed. We also brought our laundry in. They had somebody in town that they set up to do laundry for Peace Corps volunteers, which is really a good thing for us and got the guys into town a little more often.

[Assistant] That was in Santiago, so the officer was there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What about your work time versus your leisure time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like you never left, right? It was like I never left, 30 years later, and I got to the población and I looked around. I didn't even recognize it because the houses that were built were starter houses. They put a second floor or a back floors, walls or fences. You could have put me in there and I would have never known I was there. It changed so much. But I felt the sense of community there in the sense of friendship, just like we never left. Amazing.

[Assistant] How did life and work change over the months would you say?

[User] Well, I mean, at first we were, you know, unusual, you know, having a gringo there. They called us gringos. We lived in the model house at first inside the project and moved out to one of the neighborhoods.

[Assistant] So you lived in the same kind of house that you were building?

[User] No, the temporary houses that people were staying in. As we got to know, people, you know, people invite and stopped over more and really became part of the community, part of the community life. You know, Chileans are so generous. I always tried to give something back or give them something but they would end up giving something back to me.

[Assistant] Yeah, you got to get the last thank you in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, at first we were, you know, unusual, you know, having a gringo there. They called us gringos. We lived in the model house at first inside the project and moved out to one of the neighborhoods.

[Assistant] So you lived in the same kind of house that you were building?

[User] No, the temporary houses that people were staying in. As we got to know, people, you know, people invite and stopped over more and really became part of the community, part of the community life. You know, Chileans are so generous. I always tried to give something back or give them something but they would end up giving something back to me.

[Assistant] Yeah, you got to get the last thank you in there.

[User] Yeah, right. So when I left, I was giving some things out and they'd come over to the house and bring me something. I don't want to carry those things back to the States, but I didn't know what to do with them all.

[Assistant] I lived in two villages and their primary crop was hazelnuts. So each village gave me a huge bag.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the temporary houses that people were staying in. As we got to know, people, you know, people invite and stopped over more and really became part of the community, part of the community life. You know, Chileans are so generous. I always tried to give something back or give them something but they would end up giving something back to me.

[Assistant] Yeah, you got to get the last thank you in there.

[User] Yeah, right. So when I left, I was giving some things out and they'd come over to the house and bring me something. I don't want to carry those things back to the States, but I didn't know what to do with them all.

[Assistant] I lived in two villages and their primary crop was hazelnuts. So each village gave me a huge bag.

[User] I had a camera there and I had to develop, I had an enlarger and a darkroom I set up there, so I was taking a lot of pictures and giving people pictures. And when I came back, you would pull those pictures out, 30 years later.

[Assistant] I was the only one with a camera. So nobody else had one of them. So when I came back, I brought as many as I could, but still a lot I couldn't. Had them transferred from slides. Uh, let's see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a camera there and I had to develop, I had an enlarger and a darkroom I set up there, so I was taking a lot of pictures and giving people pictures. And when I came back, you would pull those pictures out, 30 years later.

[Assistant] I was the only one with a camera. So nobody else had one of them. So when I came back, I brought as many as I could, but still a lot I couldn't. Had them transferred from slides. Uh, let's see.

[User] Ok, what about.

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Well, you know, in those days, you know, now Peace Corps volunteers, I've talked to some new ones. You know, they have internet and they have cell phones and they're in constant communication. We are there, I think we had one or two calls in our village. Wait, you know, one guy had a phone and we wait in line and got the scratchy connection. We called home for a short time and had this little conversation, and that was pretty much it. You know, you sent letters and you waited for letters, that you know, they'd take two or three weeks, you know, it takes to get delivery once they were mailed. So, you know, connection with home was very distant to us. You got a sense of distance also in those days. So you're kind of there, present there. Your mind was there and there was a presence there. I think you probably might not have today.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. I think my sister got married and I made one call to the U.S. and that was it, but I had to, you know, set it up ahead of time. It was a chore. Ok, what about like at the end of your first year? What was some of the notable events or reflections?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, what about.

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Well, you know, in those days, you know, now Peace Corps volunteers, I've talked to some new ones. You know, they have internet and they have cell phones and they're in constant communication. We are there, I think we had one or two calls in our village. Wait, you know, one guy had a phone and we wait in line and got the scratchy connection. We called home for a short time and had this little conversation, and that was pretty much it. You know, you sent letters and you waited for letters, that you know, they'd take two or three weeks, you know, it takes to get delivery once they were mailed. So, you know, connection with home was very distant to us. You got a sense of distance also in those days. So you're kind of there, present there. Your mind was there and there was a presence there. I think you probably might not have today.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. I think my sister got married and I made one call to the U.S. and that was it, but I had to, you know, set it up ahead of time. It was a chore. Ok, what about like at the end of your first year? What was some of the notable events or reflections?

[User] My first year?

[Assistant] Yeah, the end of the year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, in those days, you know, now Peace Corps volunteers, I've talked to some new ones. You know, they have internet and they have cell phones and they're in constant communication. We are there, I think we had one or two calls in our village. Wait, you know, one guy had a phone and we wait in line and got the scratchy connection. We called home for a short time and had this little conversation, and that was pretty much it. You know, you sent letters and you waited for letters, that you know, they'd take two or three weeks, you know, it takes to get delivery once they were mailed. So, you know, connection with home was very distant to us. You got a sense of distance also in those days. So you're kind of there, present there. Your mind was there and there was a presence there. I think you probably might not have today.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. I think my sister got married and I made one call to the U.S. and that was it, but I had to, you know, set it up ahead of time. It was a chore. Ok, what about like at the end of your first year? What was some of the notable events or reflections?

[User] My first year?

[Assistant] Yeah, the end of the year.

[User] In Chile, my first year? Well, we took a trip. In those days you got, what was it, a month vacation?

[Assistant] Forty five days in two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My first year?

[Assistant] Yeah, the end of the year.

[User] In Chile, my first year? Well, we took a trip. In those days you got, what was it, a month vacation?

[Assistant] Forty five days in two years.

[User] Yeah. So I think it was like so we decided just to travel. We went up there. We were stationed in Chile, went to Peru and Bolivia. It was just, it was good to get away in a way, to kind of get a perspective on what you're doing because you're so immersed in it. You're thinking about it all the time. It was a nice break, and we came back, I think we had more of a sense of what we had done so far and where we were going. And also, you're starting your second year. You kind of feel like it's going to go quick. Because the first year you're just you're all trying to become a volunteer. And then the last year, you realizing that, you know, the other new volunteers are coming in and looking at you as a veteran. And you know, it just changes your perspective on things.

[Assistant] You know, you alluded to some health problems. Now were those mostly in training or did they subside once you got to your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I always thought I'd go back to graduate school and I did. I went back, got a master's of urban studies and then I got a job working full time at the University of Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Ok. Is there anything else you can want to tell about your experience there?

[User] I really think it shaped me a lot. I think. I think I approach people differently. You know, I was a young kid then I really didn't know much about the world. Like in the project, there was a chief in the project who was in charge, very much in charge. And I learned how to work with people. I learned and like, I had the morning group of workers and even though we were doing much better than the afternoon workers, I never bragged about it. You know, I always said, I always asked him for suggestions if I had an idea, I would say, you know, we're trying to do something and we're trying to, you know, figure out how to do this with these young kids and the wheelbarrows are too heavy. And how can we, you know, I knew what I wanted, but I didn't say it. I waited until he said that, I said that's a great idea. And he always liked to work it with me because he came up with all these great ideas and I always gave him credit for it. And that was really, it was a really good experience for me to learn how to work with people in and not how to take credit for it, but to make it so people think that they did it on their own. And that's that was an important thing for me to learn. Some volunteers never learned that.

[Assistant] In politics, that's really important too.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, you know, if you want something done, you don't really care who gets the credit as long as it gets done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really think it shaped me a lot. I think. I think I approach people differently. You know, I was a young kid then I really didn't know much about the world. Like in the project, there was a chief in the project who was in charge, very much in charge. And I learned how to work with people. I learned and like, I had the morning group of workers and even though we were doing much better than the afternoon workers, I never bragged about it. You know, I always said, I always asked him for suggestions if I had an idea, I would say, you know, we're trying to do something and we're trying to, you know, figure out how to do this with these young kids and the wheelbarrows are too heavy. And how can we, you know, I knew what I wanted, but I didn't say it. I waited until he said that, I said that's a great idea. And he always liked to work it with me because he came up with all these great ideas and I always gave him credit for it. And that was really, it was a really good experience for me to learn how to work with people in and not how to take credit for it, but to make it so people think that they did it on their own. And that's that was an important thing for me to learn. Some volunteers never learned that.

[Assistant] In politics, that's really important too.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, you know, if you want something done, you don't really care who gets the credit as long as it gets done.

[User] Exactly. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok, now we're going to try to evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps. The first one is to provide technical assistance where requested. How do you feel you did in that area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, you know, if you want something done, you don't really care who gets the credit as long as it gets done.

[User] Exactly. Yeah.

[Assistant] Ok, now we're going to try to evaluate your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps. The first one is to provide technical assistance where requested. How do you feel you did in that area?

[User] Well, you know, truth be told, there were five of the Chilean instructors and me, and if I wouldn't have been, there might have been six Chilean instructors and they would built the houses, but it would have been a whole different experience. I was the only one who lived on the site and they always said, you know, Dan, you're different than the instructors. You're not afraid to go down there and grab a shovel and work with us. The other instructors are the instructors and we're the workers. And there was this divide and they always wore, you know, wore a sport coat. And, you know, they came and told them how to do it. And I kind of got out my ruler and pen and, you know, helped them drive the sticks in the ground and worked with them, whatever needed to be done. And they, I think they got it. I think they really had an impact on the project. And the team I had in the morning was different that way. We had a good spirit. We're all in it together, and I think people appreciated that. In fact, when I came back, some people told me that. And 30 years later that, you know, you were one of us. You were one of the guys who just whatever it took to get done, you got it done. And it wasn't a divide between us.

[Assistant] How long was the morning shift as opposed to the, was it an evening or afternoon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, we got started more or less around nine o'clock and probably closer to 10:00. It went to maybe two o'clock, you know, right around lunchtime we'd stop. I'd still be around the project. I'd be there in the evening talking to the chief of project or some of the instructors or letting what we'd done, because we're working in teams in the whole project. One of the instructors, you know, was just more of a fragile kind of ego, and he didn't like the fact that I was working at my own. He was kind of the senior instructor and wanted me to be working under him, and I just always let him know what I was doing. And, you know, I think he finally accepted me in terms of not someone's who trying to make him look bad, I'm just trying to make the project look good. And if we look good, he looked good so.

[Assistant] And what about the, did they work at night or just?

[User] Oh yeah, they worked in the evening and you know, till dark.

[Assistant] Ok. The second goal is to promote better understanding of the United States. How do you think you did on that one?

[User] I think I did well, you know. When you're a Peace Corps volunteer, it's almost like, I think army veterans, I mean, they don't talk about the war experiences. But if you're not with any other Peace Corps volunteer and try to talk about your project, they'd say, what did you do for those poor natives? How did you save them? You know, and the truth of the matter is I learned more than I taught. And I got more than I gave. I think people were very generous and kind, and the people were very patient with me, with my language. People were very curious. I learned a lot about people. I learned a lot about South America. I learned a lot about life in general from people, and it was a real gift to me in my life. And what was the second one?

[Assistant] To promote better understanding of the U.S.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually it was a Communist Party newspaper. So many people out there with a camera in the taxi and they'd turn around and you turn on the drive and take some pictures of the building, and they're on the front page of the Communist Party newspaper.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It's spies training and rinconadas. But I never had any problem with that when I was on site. I think that socialists and communists are more curious about me than anything else. And, you know, being a young person in the '60s, you know, we've said a lot in common in terms of trying to make the world a better place.

[Assistant] And in some ways, it sounds like their government is more of a democracy because there are like four or five different parties that have a part, whereas here, if you're not a Republican or a Democrat, you're nothing.

[User] You can do that in a smaller country, though I think. You can have the more give and take. In your larger country, for five parties in Washington, it'd just be a standstill.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course it is. But okay, what about the third goal is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's spies training and rinconadas. But I never had any problem with that when I was on site. I think that socialists and communists are more curious about me than anything else. And, you know, being a young person in the '60s, you know, we've said a lot in common in terms of trying to make the world a better place.

[Assistant] And in some ways, it sounds like their government is more of a democracy because there are like four or five different parties that have a part, whereas here, if you're not a Republican or a Democrat, you're nothing.

[User] You can do that in a smaller country, though I think. You can have the more give and take. In your larger country, for five parties in Washington, it'd just be a standstill.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course it is. But okay, what about the third goal is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans?

[User] Yeah. You know, I did that a lot I think when I first came back. People had me come and talk to classes and I told a lot of stories and people were very curious because I was there when Salvador Allende was elected president. And it's a very interesting time in Chilean history. People had a lot of questions for me when I came back. And I think throughout my life, you know, I really. I think I understand how people are afraid of differences. And like when I was a supervisor, organized block watches, just brought people together on blocks. Hispanics or African Americans and whites and Native Americans and I think, you know, just emphasizing what we have in common, what we're striving, what we want in their lives and the common things we strive for.

[Assistant] So you did that as a kind of supervisor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can do that in a smaller country, though I think. You can have the more give and take. In your larger country, for five parties in Washington, it'd just be a standstill.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course it is. But okay, what about the third goal is to promote better understanding of other peoples by Americans?

[User] Yeah. You know, I did that a lot I think when I first came back. People had me come and talk to classes and I told a lot of stories and people were very curious because I was there when Salvador Allende was elected president. And it's a very interesting time in Chilean history. People had a lot of questions for me when I came back. And I think throughout my life, you know, I really. I think I understand how people are afraid of differences. And like when I was a supervisor, organized block watches, just brought people together on blocks. Hispanics or African Americans and whites and Native Americans and I think, you know, just emphasizing what we have in common, what we're striving, what we want in their lives and the common things we strive for.

[Assistant] So you did that as a kind of supervisor?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, I didn't realize that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, I did that a lot I think when I first came back. People had me come and talk to classes and I told a lot of stories and people were very curious because I was there when Salvador Allende was elected president. And it's a very interesting time in Chilean history. People had a lot of questions for me when I came back. And I think throughout my life, you know, I really. I think I understand how people are afraid of differences. And like when I was a supervisor, organized block watches, just brought people together on blocks. Hispanics or African Americans and whites and Native Americans and I think, you know, just emphasizing what we have in common, what we're striving, what we want in their lives and the common things we strive for.

[Assistant] So you did that as a kind of supervisor?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, I didn't realize that.

[User] I think you get a sense that America still has a message to give to the world, you know, like it's almost like manifest destiny. But you know, we in this country can live together, different languages, different religions, different races, different cultures, side by side. You know, with the Croatians, the Serbians living next to each other and Jews and Arabs. And it's we don't thrive in spite of it. We thrive because of it. It seems more when you change your ideas and more of a dynamic and the world needs that message. You know, they need to see an African American president. We need to see that we can live with our differences and prosper. And that not be something that separates us. It's a message the world needs to have. It's the only way the world will survive. And I think America is a good example of that to the rest of the world.

[Assistant] Ok. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and contact with people from that country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, I didn't realize that.

[User] I think you get a sense that America still has a message to give to the world, you know, like it's almost like manifest destiny. But you know, we in this country can live together, different languages, different religions, different races, different cultures, side by side. You know, with the Croatians, the Serbians living next to each other and Jews and Arabs. And it's we don't thrive in spite of it. We thrive because of it. It seems more when you change your ideas and more of a dynamic and the world needs that message. You know, they need to see an African American president. We need to see that we can live with our differences and prosper. And that not be something that separates us. It's a message the world needs to have. It's the only way the world will survive. And I think America is a good example of that to the rest of the world.

[Assistant] Ok. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and contact with people from that country?

[User] We've gone back twice. It's a long way to go, to Chile, Santiago. We took our kids back one time and they got to meet the villagers. They all went to Spanish immersion schools, our kids, so they all learned Spanish, which is something I think we took with us in Peace Corps, wanting our children to learn another language. Cause the language and culture and understanding are so tied together. You know, we've been part of the Returned Peace Corps Volunteers on and off, more active sometimes some years than others. I've been active in Amnesty International, some organizations like that, you know, trying to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Have you been involved with the third goal activities, trying to promote better understanding? I guess you sort of have, like you gave a lot of talks. Did you have like slide shows?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you get a sense that America still has a message to give to the world, you know, like it's almost like manifest destiny. But you know, we in this country can live together, different languages, different religions, different races, different cultures, side by side. You know, with the Croatians, the Serbians living next to each other and Jews and Arabs. And it's we don't thrive in spite of it. We thrive because of it. It seems more when you change your ideas and more of a dynamic and the world needs that message. You know, they need to see an African American president. We need to see that we can live with our differences and prosper. And that not be something that separates us. It's a message the world needs to have. It's the only way the world will survive. And I think America is a good example of that to the rest of the world.

[Assistant] Ok. Through the years, have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service and contact with people from that country?

[User] We've gone back twice. It's a long way to go, to Chile, Santiago. We took our kids back one time and they got to meet the villagers. They all went to Spanish immersion schools, our kids, so they all learned Spanish, which is something I think we took with us in Peace Corps, wanting our children to learn another language. Cause the language and culture and understanding are so tied together. You know, we've been part of the Returned Peace Corps Volunteers on and off, more active sometimes some years than others. I've been active in Amnesty International, some organizations like that, you know, trying to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Have you been involved with the third goal activities, trying to promote better understanding? I guess you sort of have, like you gave a lot of talks. Did you have like slide shows?

[User] I never had slideshows, I had pictures. I haven't done that in several years now, on the anniversary of the Peace Corps, you know.

[Assistant] We're now in the 50th anniversary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've gone back twice. It's a long way to go, to Chile, Santiago. We took our kids back one time and they got to meet the villagers. They all went to Spanish immersion schools, our kids, so they all learned Spanish, which is something I think we took with us in Peace Corps, wanting our children to learn another language. Cause the language and culture and understanding are so tied together. You know, we've been part of the Returned Peace Corps Volunteers on and off, more active sometimes some years than others. I've been active in Amnesty International, some organizations like that, you know, trying to make a difference in the world.

[Assistant] Have you been involved with the third goal activities, trying to promote better understanding? I guess you sort of have, like you gave a lot of talks. Did you have like slide shows?

[User] I never had slideshows, I had pictures. I haven't done that in several years now, on the anniversary of the Peace Corps, you know.

[Assistant] We're now in the 50th anniversary.

[User] Are you going to go?

[Assistant] I think I am, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never had slideshows, I had pictures. I haven't done that in several years now, on the anniversary of the Peace Corps, you know.

[Assistant] We're now in the 50th anniversary.

[User] Are you going to go?

[Assistant] I think I am, yeah.

[User] Do you know when that is?

[Assistant] I think it's like the 22nd to the 25th of September.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are you going to go?

[Assistant] I think I am, yeah.

[User] Do you know when that is?

[Assistant] I think it's like the 22nd to the 25th of September.

[User] Oh, September. I see Shriver just died too.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I guess we're going to have a sendoff March 2, you know, for the new volunteers going over at that time. It's going to be at the Urban Ecology.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you know when that is?

[Assistant] I think it's like the 22nd to the 25th of September.

[User] Oh, September. I see Shriver just died too.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I guess we're going to have a sendoff March 2, you know, for the new volunteers going over at that time. It's going to be at the Urban Ecology.

[User] Oh, really? Is there a group going down from Milwaukee to Washington, or just individuals?

[Assistant] I think people are trying to do it through their country of service more, you know? But yeah, there are quite a few people that are planning on going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, September. I see Shriver just died too.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. I guess we're going to have a sendoff March 2, you know, for the new volunteers going over at that time. It's going to be at the Urban Ecology.

[User] Oh, really? Is there a group going down from Milwaukee to Washington, or just individuals?

[Assistant] I think people are trying to do it through their country of service more, you know? But yeah, there are quite a few people that are planning on going.

[User] I ran into Mike Farmer the other day at Marquette University. He's still around. But we did, we did a lot in our Peace Corps group. When the war in Central America was going on, we tried to not get the Peace Corps volunteers were used as pawns in that old Cold War battle ground.

[Assistant] Let's see. What do you think the Peace Corps had, what kind of an effect do you think it had on you? You know, as far as yourself, your career plans, long term.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it really had an impact on me in the long term because you realize that if you just. Even lower middle class living better than 90 percent people in the world. So I think I've been, I've lived fairly simple in that way. You realize, you know, just appreciate what you have and don't try to. You realize that money isn't everything and material goods aren't everything. I think my values are different. What I do with my life is more important than what I get. I think I never had a goal to make a lot of money, but to try to make a difference in the world. And I've been in public service my whole life, you know, a VISTA volunteer and a Peace Corps volunteer. I was head of a nonprofit inner-city government project. I did campus community relations at UWM. I worked a lot for Milwaukee County in various roles, and lately even held elective office as a county supervisor for 12 years and county treasurer for six. So I think I just tried to serve the public good in everything I've done. I think that's really, I got that from, maybe that's why I would join the Peace Corps in the first place. Or maybe from the Peace Corps, I took a lot from the Peace Corps and really shaped my life.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think it did for me too. Actually, when I got back, I joined the Teacher Corps.

[User] Same thing, yeah. I was involved in the Teacher Corps.

[Assistant] You were?

[User] With Frank Vissay?

[Assistant] Well, there was one. I did this in Detroit, but there was one here in Milwaukee.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Same thing, yeah. I was involved in the Teacher Corps.

[Assistant] You were?

[User] With Frank Vissay?

[Assistant] Well, there was one. I did this in Detroit, but there was one here in Milwaukee.

[User] I helped organize it here.

[Assistant] Oh, is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With Frank Vissay?

[Assistant] Well, there was one. I did this in Detroit, but there was one here in Milwaukee.

[User] I helped organize it here.

[Assistant] Oh, is that right?

[User] I was on the committee that reviewed the first applicants.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any things, words of wisdom or anything you'd like to add to this interview and that you'd like to leave with people who might be listening to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I helped organize it here.

[Assistant] Oh, is that right?

[User] I was on the committee that reviewed the first applicants.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any things, words of wisdom or anything you'd like to add to this interview and that you'd like to leave with people who might be listening to it?

[User]
I highly recommend it. I think it's a real soulful thing to do if you take it and you do it right. I think it can really make a difference in your life. I'm not sure how much difference it made. I think it did when I went back and saw it. You realized, you know, what you did and how you lived and went. What you did on the way to doing other things was really the most important things we did. And actually, people feel different about Americans when they actually know one. And they realize we're not just, we do a lot of things that Americans aren't aware of in this country and overseas, that people interpret the wrong way. Or sometimes the right way, if it's the wrong thing.

But I think I think it really helps. I think it's helped a lot. It helps in the world that people live someplace else and you get to experience Americans and then we come back and we're able to share that experience. You know, when you see those world hunger things that are collecting money for orphans, you know, they're real people to you. They're not just pictures. You realize, you know, you knew kids like that and you knew families like that. You can't save the world, but you can just be who you are in the world and try to make a difference with your presence there.

[Assistant] Ok, I think that's well stated. I guess unless you have anything, anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was on the committee that reviewed the first applicants.

[Assistant] Ok. Are there any things, words of wisdom or anything you'd like to add to this interview and that you'd like to leave with people who might be listening to it?

[User]
I highly recommend it. I think it's a real soulful thing to do if you take it and you do it right. I think it can really make a difference in your life. I'm not sure how much difference it made. I think it did when I went back and saw it. You realized, you know, what you did and how you lived and went. What you did on the way to doing other things was really the most important things we did. And actually, people feel different about Americans when they actually know one. And they realize we're not just, we do a lot of things that Americans aren't aware of in this country and overseas, that people interpret the wrong way. Or sometimes the right way, if it's the wrong thing.

But I think I think it really helps. I think it's helped a lot. It helps in the world that people live someplace else and you get to experience Americans and then we come back and we're able to share that experience. You know, when you see those world hunger things that are collecting money for orphans, you know, they're real people to you. They're not just pictures. You realize, you know, you knew kids like that and you knew families like that. You can't save the world, but you can just be who you are in the world and try to make a difference with your presence there.

[Assistant] Ok, I think that's well stated. I guess unless you have anything, anything else?

[User] I think that's pretty much it, so.

[Assistant] Thank you for doing this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to school at Mississippi State College for Women. It is now Mississippi University for Women. That is in Columbus, Mississippi. I majored in mathematics and had planned to be math teacher. That’s about all you did back then. Actually, I had almost signed a contract when the NACA came down, recruiting mathematicians. They had done that for a number of years. I really hadn’t thought about it, but when they came down, I decided that I would give it a try. One reason was my highest job offer for teaching was about $1800 a year, and NACA offered me $3100. I thought that was pretty good, so I thought I would come up here for a year and then go back to Mississippi.

[Assistant] Tell us about coming up here. That was a distance from Mississippi.

[User] That certainly was a distance. It was my first plane ride. Actually, I didn’t decided to do this until almost graduation, so in July—I think it was July 11—I came up. One other girl from MSCW came up. We weren’t really good friends, but we knew each other. We were in the same graduating class. I came up by myself. I flew up. I had never flown in an airplane before. I landed in Norfolk [Virginia], and somebody met me there. We came over from Norfolk. Of course, that was during the Korean War, and Norfolk was just filled with sailors. We had to come over on the ferry, because we didn’t have tunnels or any other way to get across Hampton Roads.

[Assistant] Where did you stay at first?

[User] Actually, the only apartments they had around were on Kecoughtan Road. I stayed in South Hampton Apartments and got an apartment there because a friend—I think she had MS [Multiple Sclerosis] and was away at the hospital in Washington State, I guess, for about three or four months—so we stayed there until we really found a place. I’m surprised that I came up. I didn’t have an automobile. I didn’t know where I was going to stay.

[Assistant] That was quite a leap of faith.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That certainly was a distance. It was my first plane ride. Actually, I didn’t decided to do this until almost graduation, so in July—I think it was July 11—I came up. One other girl from MSCW came up. We weren’t really good friends, but we knew each other. We were in the same graduating class. I came up by myself. I flew up. I had never flown in an airplane before. I landed in Norfolk [Virginia], and somebody met me there. We came over from Norfolk. Of course, that was during the Korean War, and Norfolk was just filled with sailors. We had to come over on the ferry, because we didn’t have tunnels or any other way to get across Hampton Roads.

[Assistant] Where did you stay at first?

[User] Actually, the only apartments they had around were on Kecoughtan Road. I stayed in South Hampton Apartments and got an apartment there because a friend—I think she had MS [Multiple Sclerosis] and was away at the hospital in Washington State, I guess, for about three or four months—so we stayed there until we really found a place. I’m surprised that I came up. I didn’t have an automobile. I didn’t know where I was going to stay.

[Assistant] That was quite a leap of faith.

[User] It is, for a little Mississippi girl.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea what to expect at NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, the only apartments they had around were on Kecoughtan Road. I stayed in South Hampton Apartments and got an apartment there because a friend—I think she had MS [Multiple Sclerosis] and was away at the hospital in Washington State, I guess, for about three or four months—so we stayed there until we really found a place. I’m surprised that I came up. I didn’t have an automobile. I didn’t know where I was going to stay.

[Assistant] That was quite a leap of faith.

[User] It is, for a little Mississippi girl.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea what to expect at NACA?

[User] No. I really didn’t, because I didn’t know the two girls that were already up here well. I just knew that they were working for NACA. I just thought it would be something different. I thought, well, this sounds like fun.

[Assistant] What did your family think about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is, for a little Mississippi girl.

[Assistant] Did you have any idea what to expect at NACA?

[User] No. I really didn’t, because I didn’t know the two girls that were already up here well. I just knew that they were working for NACA. I just thought it would be something different. I thought, well, this sounds like fun.

[Assistant] What did your family think about it?

[User] They let me do it. I don’t think they were too happy about it. I think they were a little uneasy about it, but they said, “Fine.” Of course, they did expect me to come back home, and I really didn’t, except for visits.

[Assistant] Talk about those first days when you first got here.