[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The seminars.

[Assistant] American studies?

[User] American studies, yes.

[Assistant] And the seminars, did they include studies about India and culture?

[User] Yes. Quite a bit.

[Assistant] And that was still done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] American studies, yes.

[Assistant] And the seminars, did they include studies about India and culture?

[User] Yes. Quite a bit.

[Assistant] And that was still done.

[User] Indian history.

[Assistant] In the colloquial setting? In the colloquium?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Quite a bit.

[Assistant] And that was still done.

[User] Indian history.

[Assistant] In the colloquial setting? In the colloquium?

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] And then chicken farming or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great, a great emphasis on that. We had a guy that was in charge of that particular training that came down from Vermont. He was a very successful poultry farmer. And the first thing we did in that thing was to build a group of four chicken houses out of plywood, you know, and also the fifth one. [to pet] Come on now, get over here. The fifth one was made entirely out of native materials, you know, thatch.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we all took a lot of pride in that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Great story connected with these chicken houses. We had four chicken houses. We had four seminar groups. We had a kind of a group thing going, right? In our, and we stocked the, the four main houses with hens that were scheduled to be, to become frying chickens, you know. We rescued them from that and, you know, put them back into production. They had been going through a molt. We brought them out of the molt and basically they entered their second year of production while they were with us. And these were at the end of the football field for St. John's College. Right next door to the campus is a helicopter pad. And I think the Coast Guard runs it. They use these helicopters and would go on daily patrol just to do their business.

I still remember this great story. I walked down to collect the eggs in the afternoon just before dinner, and we got about 67 percent production that day, which is, you know, better than it kind of justified. It was about the average. Everybody was getting around 67 to 72 percent. And so there was 67 percent. And so I gathered the eggs and was just writing out the report and I put everything, oh, let's get this. [tape break]

[Assistant] Uh, the chicken and the eggs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we all took a lot of pride in that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Great story connected with these chicken houses. We had four chicken houses. We had four seminar groups. We had a kind of a group thing going, right? In our, and we stocked the, the four main houses with hens that were scheduled to be, to become frying chickens, you know. We rescued them from that and, you know, put them back into production. They had been going through a molt. We brought them out of the molt and basically they entered their second year of production while they were with us. And these were at the end of the football field for St. John's College. Right next door to the campus is a helicopter pad. And I think the Coast Guard runs it. They use these helicopters and would go on daily patrol just to do their business.

I still remember this great story. I walked down to collect the eggs in the afternoon just before dinner, and we got about 67 percent production that day, which is, you know, better than it kind of justified. It was about the average. Everybody was getting around 67 to 72 percent. And so there was 67 percent. And so I gathered the eggs and was just writing out the report and I put everything, oh, let's get this. [tape break]

[Assistant] Uh, the chicken and the eggs.

[User] So with the, with that report in my hand, I walked across the football field ready to kind of basically hang my head saying, you know, we've been trying like crazy to raise the production, when the helicopter flew right over my head, back toward the helicopter pad and must have cleared the poultry houses by about 20 feet. I thought, my God, what? What are those idiots, what are they doing? I ran back. There were eight eggs on the floor. I said, wow, there it is, 85 percent!

[Assistant] Funny. That's great. Were you aware, what was the selection process as you were going through the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically, we were told that it was the object of the training staff to pass us all, if at all possible. They wanted all of us to go.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And realizing that probably not everybody would go. But they told us stories about training programs where people would find out by having a note slipped under their door in the middle of the night and they'd wake up and find out that they'd just been deselected and ordered off the campus. They said, don't worry, that's not going to happen here. If you decide you're not going to go, let us know. And that's okay.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I think we all, and of the 93 people that went to India, I think we only lost one or two for strange reasons, well, who didn't finish out their tour of duty.

[Assistant] Do you recall going before a panel to be interviewed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember our, one of my, one of my senior, my seminar instructors pulling me aside, saying, you know, she said, let me tell you that we just got back a detrimental report from your college and we want to ask you about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I said, okay, what does it say? And it was, it was from the chaplain saying, this guy isn't very religious.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, I told him as honestly as I could that the whole idea for me leaving in the middle of my senior year was about this experience thing. And I said, if somebody had come to me with this kind of a self revelation and asked my advice about what they should do, I would have told that person that the best thing you could do is do something like joining the Peace Corps. Do the best job you can, and then take stock at the end of the, of the tour.

[Assistant] So what was the effect of training on you? I mean, did it build confidence? Did it make you uncertain or how did it fit with your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right, well, that was a package deal, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we said, all right, we'll do our part.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we knew that the Peace Corps was going to be looking over our shoulder and wanting to know what was going on. So how could they help and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Up to the point that you were going, had there been any other chicken projects in India or was yours the first of that sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Either VI or VIII [six or eight], one of those. And they, they had, in the middle of their tour of duty, I guess they had been basically agriculture people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But they all maybe came to a seminar or something like that and said, you know what? We're missing the boat here because poultry is a good thing. They all need it. They all want it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Nobody is opposed to it. Let's do it. So they got it going and then we were there to follow through so.

[Assistant] Do you recall any Washington visitors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody is opposed to it. Let's do it. So they got it going and then we were there to follow through so.

[Assistant] Do you recall any Washington visitors?

[User] Yes. Yes. Oh, let me see. Um. David Schimmel. David Schimmel.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He was one, great guy. I think he was.

[Assistant] Do you know why he was there or did he talk to the. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Oh, let me see. Um. David Schimmel. David Schimmel.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He was one, great guy. I think he was.

[Assistant] Do you know why he was there or did he talk to the. [tape break]

[User] Coming over to Israel to meet with us, too. He followed us halfway around the world. And that's a fascinating story.

[Assistant] We'll get to that in a minute.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Coming over to Israel to meet with us, too. He followed us halfway around the world. And that's a fascinating story.

[Assistant] We'll get to that in a minute.

[User] Okay. Phil Kanteneski was our training program director.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was a great guy.

[Assistant] Did anyone from the field, Peace Corps field staff come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Phil Kanteneski was our training program director.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was a great guy.

[Assistant] Did anyone from the field, Peace Corps field staff come?

[User] He came with us to Israel.

[Assistant] Oh, he did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was a great guy.

[Assistant] Did anyone from the field, Peace Corps field staff come?

[User] He came with us to Israel.

[Assistant] Oh, he did?

[User] Yeah. Stayed with us the whole time.

[Assistant] And did he follow to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Stayed with us the whole time.

[Assistant] And did he follow to India?

[User] I think he followed as far as Delhi.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] When we got our assignments and then he, he came home after that.

[Assistant] Were, other than the language instructors, were there any Indians in any other roles in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he followed as far as Delhi.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] When we got our assignments and then he, he came home after that.

[Assistant] Were, other than the language instructors, were there any Indians in any other roles in the training?

[User] Uh, I think that was pretty much it. It was a group of 8 to 10 language instructors.

[Assistant] Did people encourage you to, in training staff, encourage you also to begin to tune in on Indian English because that's a change as well as trying to learn Hindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, a lot of us complained about that. And it's absolutely true. I mean, if you want to get a real laugh out of an Indian, especially a student, somebody who's got some brains going, just show them Hindi script, Hindi vocabulary written in this Romanized script. Oh, they'd just crack up.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, uh, it made it. Randy said the, uh, the time, you know, three months in training is just not enough time to, for you to get anything out of going that route. They wanted us to have a good working vocabulary, a conversational familiarity with our subjects. And so that's, that's what we did. And those who never saw our notes were very impressed with how well we spoke Hindi.

[Assistant] Training's over.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You went home for a couple of days, I think, on leave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had had one date during the training program and it was basically just a kind of a here I am kind of situation. So this was an extra week that we got to really decide what was going to happen next.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We were finally told that half the group would be going to Guam and nobody wanted to go. And half the group would go to Israel. And everyone said, oh, we want to go to Israel. Well, India 16 got to go. I don't know how or why. But the group that went to Guam told us later, oh, that was miserable. You don't know how lucky you are you didn't have to go. But Israel was just great. We loved it. It turned out we stayed for 40 days.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] But every day, every time we got together, maybe every other day, they would always start the meeting by saying, now remember, be flexible.

[Assistant] You, the entire group wasn't assigned out in Israel in the same place, were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But every day, every time we got together, maybe every other day, they would always start the meeting by saying, now remember, be flexible.

[Assistant] You, the entire group wasn't assigned out in Israel in the same place, were you?

[User] No, in fact, we, it took us another week touring the country to decide where they were going to go. And they shipped us to four different kibbutzim.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then Ruth was supposed to go to Gesher HaZiv, but then we pulled a few strings and said she can come down to Rosh Hashanah with me, right? Okay. Yeah, she came.

[Assistant] And that's, you spent about, what, four weeks? Five weeks at the kibbutz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I've got to tell you, there was a swimming pool at this kibbutz, Rosh Hashanah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they said, be sure and come down to the swimming pool tonight because we're going to have a program down there. And I had, how could they? What's it going to be, water polo or something? Well, they covered the swimming pool and turned it into a stage. And they had an orchestra. They had lighting. They had sound amplification. They had dancers. Like I said, dancers on The Ed Sullivan Show are not as good as these people. This is a professional troupe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I said this is the most fantastic group of people you have here.

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. And you worked on the kibbutz?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I said this is the most fantastic group of people you have here.

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. And you worked on the kibbutz?

[User] Yes. Every day. You got to. We started the routine at 5:30 in the morning. Wake up and go down and have tea and toast at the dining room and then get on the tractor and head out to the fields and work in the fields till about 8:00 in the morning. And then have breakfast, which consisted of hard-boiled eggs and fresh vegetables and laban. Which, you know, when I, when I arrived in Israel, I weighed 170 pounds and I was very trim, athletic build.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the day that we left Israel, on this diet, I weighed over 190 pounds. 40 days later. Laban has got everything you need.

[Assistant] It's like yogurt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the day that we left Israel, on this diet, I weighed over 190 pounds. 40 days later. Laban has got everything you need.

[Assistant] It's like yogurt?

[User] Yeah, yeah. But you had, you can't. I couldn't drink it or eat it straight. I had to add sugar.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's very sour stuff, but, you know.

[Assistant] Then finally got to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I, and George Fisher and I sat there and said, well, it looks like we got stuck with the dregs, right? So they said, Udaipur. What can we say about Udaipur? The most fabulous city. What? This city is unlike anything you've ever heard of or seen before. When you get there, you'll just be amazed. The people are just so resilient. This is the only place in northern India that was not conquered by Akbar the Great, because these guys held out. And they, you know, they were the macho guys. They, and they built themselves a princely kingdom there, unlike any. In fact, in honor of that period, the official title of the Rajput who ruled Udaipur is not Maharajah. No, he's elevated one step above Maharaja. He is the Maharana, all right?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he is recognized by all the, all the Rajputs. So it was just fantastic. We, we knew. And they said, don't worry about resources. Things are going great there.

[Assistant] This was all in New Delhi?

[User] In New Delhi, yes.

[Assistant] And then was it just you and George then took off from New Delhi or did you go in groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think, no, we had a train lot. We all, everybody in Rajasthan left New Delhi on the same train and the Cheeks got off in Jaipur.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they were the first ones off.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we said tata, and basically the order that we got our assignments, that's, that's the way we got off the train.

[Assistant] Was it, was your first introduction to moving about in India where you, did you have first class carriages or third class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we said tata, and basically the order that we got our assignments, that's, that's the way we got off the train.

[Assistant] Was it, was your first introduction to moving about in India where you, did you have first class carriages or third class?

[User] Third class. Third class all the way. That's, that was laid down by Gandhi.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] He said, why should I travel first class when there are so many that can't.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to begin using your Hindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Third class. Third class all the way. That's, that was laid down by Gandhi.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] He said, why should I travel first class when there are so many that can't.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to begin using your Hindi?

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, all the way.

[Assistant] Right from the beginning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, all the way.

[Assistant] Right from the beginning.

[User] Right there. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Going out in the bazaars, buying stuff. It was a lot of fun. It was great. A great adventure.

[Assistant] Then you got up to your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right there. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Going out in the bazaars, buying stuff. It was a lot of fun. It was great. A great adventure.

[Assistant] Then you got up to your assignment?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was your setting and for whom did you work and how was the job defined?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Going out in the bazaars, buying stuff. It was a lot of fun. It was great. A great adventure.

[Assistant] Then you got up to your assignment?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What was your setting and for whom did you work and how was the job defined?

[User] See, we were, we got to the railway station and I think in very short order we met somebody from the Animal Husbandry Department who came down to greet us and brought us in a rickshaw, horse-drawn rickshaw, and brought us up to the animal hospital. And I don't think we even took our bags. We didn't unpack for a while. We spent the first day there at the animal hospital and that night they took us to the doc bungalow, which is the government quarters, and we just basically stretched out on cots in a hotel room, basically, and just stayed there for a few days before we found some private quarters that we could rent.

[Assistant] And did you find them or were they arranged?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bob Woolsey and Jim Nelson, whom I'd never met but had a profound influence on my life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because everybody thought that they were heroes, and they just thought Bob and Jim were the greatest. After all, hey, they had motorcycles.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And by the way, where is your motorcycle? I said, well, you know, we're writing now, and I'm sure they'll be sending it, you know. Well, we never got motorcycles.

[Assistant] But did you expect that you would have them to do your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because everybody thought that they were heroes, and they just thought Bob and Jim were the greatest. After all, hey, they had motorcycles.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And by the way, where is your motorcycle? I said, well, you know, we're writing now, and I'm sure they'll be sending it, you know. Well, we never got motorcycles.

[Assistant] But did you expect that you would have them to do your assignment?

[User] Well, yeah, we were kind of put out. Hey, come on, the other guys had motorcycles. Why can't we? And the official word came down that, you know, insurance.

[Assistant] They were facing a mandate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And by the way, where is your motorcycle? I said, well, you know, we're writing now, and I'm sure they'll be sending it, you know. Well, we never got motorcycles.

[Assistant] But did you expect that you would have them to do your assignment?

[User] Well, yeah, we were kind of put out. Hey, come on, the other guys had motorcycles. Why can't we? And the official word came down that, you know, insurance.

[Assistant] They were facing a mandate?

[User] We've got to do something. It's prohibitive to, you know, somehow those guys in the early projects got under a wire somehow, but we can't do that anymore. And so now you guys are going to have to make do with just bicycles. And we thought, well.

[Assistant] How close to you were the other the nearest volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yeah, we were kind of put out. Hey, come on, the other guys had motorcycles. Why can't we? And the official word came down that, you know, insurance.

[Assistant] They were facing a mandate?

[User] We've got to do something. It's prohibitive to, you know, somehow those guys in the early projects got under a wire somehow, but we can't do that anymore. And so now you guys are going to have to make do with just bicycles. And we thought, well.

[Assistant] How close to you were the other the nearest volunteers?

[User] We had a guy from India 19 who was right close by, very close by, maybe two miles.

[Assistant] And how far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We've got to do something. It's prohibitive to, you know, somehow those guys in the early projects got under a wire somehow, but we can't do that anymore. And so now you guys are going to have to make do with just bicycles. And we thought, well.

[Assistant] How close to you were the other the nearest volunteers?

[User] We had a guy from India 19 who was right close by, very close by, maybe two miles.

[Assistant] And how far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?

[User] The Peace Corps office was in New Delhi. Yeah.

[Assistant] Which was a day's travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a guy from India 19 who was right close by, very close by, maybe two miles.

[Assistant] And how far were you from the nearest Peace Corps office?

[User] The Peace Corps office was in New Delhi. Yeah.

[Assistant] Which was a day's travel?

[User] Easy, easy a day, yeah.

[Assistant] What was the living arrangement, your meals and just the general day-to-day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we, we had no problem with, with the food. We, uh, we ate in restaurants the first few days, you know, everything was great. And we looked around for a cook and we found Bob and Jim's old cook still there in town, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I still think of Faisal a lot. Faisal Ali was a real character. He spoke in very, very broken English.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he always wore his old, dirty, white turban. And he had a white, fuzzy beard a lot like, a lot like that guy. Yeah, that's I thought of. That was, that was a gift to, to Ruth and I from our, from her brother and his wife.

[Assistant] Did you take your meals at home? Did Faisal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Faisal did the cooking and he went out and we had a problem first because he moved so slow it would take him all day to do the shopping and they didn't have any time to do anything else.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we had to hire another guy to do the shopping for Faisal, and he stayed with us a good long time. He was a sweeper.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he did a lot of cleanup. It's just incredible how low the wages were that these guys worked for. But there were standard wages. And so.

[Assistant] Was that common for unmarried men, Indians? Would they have the same kind of arrangement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had to hire another guy to do the shopping for Faisal, and he stayed with us a good long time. He was a sweeper.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he did a lot of cleanup. It's just incredible how low the wages were that these guys worked for. But there were standard wages. And so.

[Assistant] Was that common for unmarried men, Indians? Would they have the same kind of arrangement?

[User] Yeah, I think so. Very similar. We met a lot of the students in the college and those that didn't actually live on campus. Uh, let's see, we met some kids that were high school age and they were living at home. I think, I can't remember their names. Cucu, Cucu was one, and he had a similar arrangement to what we had.

[Assistant] What was the typical workday like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We arrived at the office and our poultry project officer was there and he said, well, we have a problem and your first assignment is going to be travel to Jaipur as soon as you can. They've just sent us a directive saying that we have only six farmers in our poultry cooperative society, and therefore we do not qualify to have a poultry project office here. And you must tell them that they are changing the rules. When we incorporated this co-operative, six was the minimum and that's what we got. And that's what we're going to have, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I said, I will do exactly as you say and I will do so on Thursday of this week. In between now and then. Uh, let me see. I understand that there are some other people who may be interested in also becoming members of the cooperative society. By Thursday, we had eight more signed up. So we had 15, you know, 14 or 15.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Hey, no trip to Jaipur was necessary. You know, forget that. We were just going gangbusters right from the very beginning.

[Assistant] Was it the work, building on the work that the India VIII guys had done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I said, I will do exactly as you say and I will do so on Thursday of this week. In between now and then. Uh, let me see. I understand that there are some other people who may be interested in also becoming members of the cooperative society. By Thursday, we had eight more signed up. So we had 15, you know, 14 or 15.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Hey, no trip to Jaipur was necessary. You know, forget that. We were just going gangbusters right from the very beginning.

[Assistant] Was it the work, building on the work that the India VIII guys had done?

[User] Yeah, they had, they had done a fabulous job.

[Assistant] And you were convincing people who had never raised chickens and had never eaten eggs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hey, no trip to Jaipur was necessary. You know, forget that. We were just going gangbusters right from the very beginning.

[Assistant] Was it the work, building on the work that the India VIII guys had done?

[User] Yeah, they had, they had done a fabulous job.

[Assistant] And you were convincing people who had never raised chickens and had never eaten eggs.

[User] That's right, yeah.

[Assistant] That they should do so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they had, they had done a fabulous job.

[Assistant] And you were convincing people who had never raised chickens and had never eaten eggs.

[User] That's right, yeah.

[Assistant] That they should do so.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] And when it went that quickly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, yeah.

[Assistant] That they should do so.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] And when it went that quickly?

[User] It was just like wildfire from the very beginning. It's like everybody anticipated what we were going to do. I think Bob and Jim just did a whirlwind thing.

[Assistant] Let's just jump to the end of the first year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] And when it went that quickly?

[User] It was just like wildfire from the very beginning. It's like everybody anticipated what we were going to do. I think Bob and Jim just did a whirlwind thing.

[Assistant] Let's just jump to the end of the first year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] At that point, how many people were actually raising chickens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] At that point, how many people were actually raising chickens?

[User] Oh. The end of the first year, around 50.

[Assistant] That many?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So it just built.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. The end of the first year, around 50.

[Assistant] That many?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So it just built.

[User] And these were guys who had poultry houses. Minimum 100 birds in each house. And by the end of the first year, they were all making money. That was the key.

[Assistant] How did they market them initially, when you're, as they were developing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So it just built.

[User] And these were guys who had poultry houses. Minimum 100 birds in each house. And by the end of the first year, they were all making money. That was the key.

[Assistant] How did they market them initially, when you're, as they were developing?

[User] Yeah. That's what. My understanding was that was the biggest need of the poultry cooperative society. From the very beginning I said, we are going to have a huge problem marketing these eggs. I said, right now the only outlet that we have is the Dosti Egg Store in Bombay. We're going to have to find some other place because, you know, the prices down there are very flexible.

[Assistant] How far away was Bombay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That's what. My understanding was that was the biggest need of the poultry cooperative society. From the very beginning I said, we are going to have a huge problem marketing these eggs. I said, right now the only outlet that we have is the Dosti Egg Store in Bombay. We're going to have to find some other place because, you know, the prices down there are very flexible.

[Assistant] How far away was Bombay?

[User] Another overnight. You know, we're halfway between Delhi and Bombay, so it's a full day's journey. So we just, we could sell the eggs. I said, we've got no problem. All we've got to do is pack them in these clay pots, fill it with rice husk, put it on a train and put a label on it saying Dosti Eggs, Bombay, and they'll get there. But the price, you know, they, they sometimes it was like half what we were expecting, but at least it was half, you know. That was the beginning. Then we started, we said, all right, let's get our own egg store right here in town. That'll be good. Hey, they were very reluctant. They thought that'll never work. Who's going to, who's going to buy eggs here? Nobody.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But we put it up. We had a big grand opening. Very pretty sky blue painting, you know, and it was clean and people could come in and get their eggs and buy one egg at a time.

[Assistant] Now, what was the name of the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we put it up. We had a big grand opening. Very pretty sky blue painting, you know, and it was clean and people could come in and get their eggs and buy one egg at a time.

[Assistant] Now, what was the name of the town?

[User] Udaipur.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Made famous in the James Bond movie, uh, Octopussy.

[Assistant] And what approximately, what was the population at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Udaipur.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Made famous in the James Bond movie, uh, Octopussy.

[Assistant] And what approximately, what was the population at the time?

[User] 100,000 easy.

[Assistant] Okay. So potentially lots of. Now, did how did people integrate eggs into their diet when they never had them before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Made famous in the James Bond movie, uh, Octopussy.

[Assistant] And what approximately, what was the population at the time?

[User] 100,000 easy.

[Assistant] Okay. So potentially lots of. Now, did how did people integrate eggs into their diet when they never had them before?

[User] That was fascinating.

[Assistant] Was there anyone else working on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was fascinating.

[Assistant] Was there anyone else working on that?

[User] Uh, there were, there were, there was an AID program at the University of Udaipur, no, the state of Rajasthan, what, uh? I think that, well, I guess the University of Udaipur. And there was also a State of Rajasthan College, but the AID people were teaching their kids nutrition. We had a lady from Ohio State University named Fanchon Warfield, and she was teaching nutrition to their, to her kids and teaching cooking. And they had a poultry farm out there that was just coming into production when we got there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] What a coincidence, I mean.

[Assistant] During the first three, six months, you must have run up, run into some culture shock, some disappointment, some.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, there were, there were, there was an AID program at the University of Udaipur, no, the state of Rajasthan, what, uh? I think that, well, I guess the University of Udaipur. And there was also a State of Rajasthan College, but the AID people were teaching their kids nutrition. We had a lady from Ohio State University named Fanchon Warfield, and she was teaching nutrition to their, to her kids and teaching cooking. And they had a poultry farm out there that was just coming into production when we got there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] What a coincidence, I mean.

[Assistant] During the first three, six months, you must have run up, run into some culture shock, some disappointment, some.

[User] Oh, huge.

[Assistant] And what, I mean, how did that play out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had to chase them off.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think I was successful. You know, she didn't get injured or anything. But what kind of a world is this, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I did finally go back and raise that same question to the guy that I was going to talk to. I said, how can, how can there be people who are so animal-like, you know? And he was a teacher himself. He said, well, you know, you have to understand that there are differences. You know, we have a lot of kids who just don't understand. They just, they listen to old stories and wives’ tales and, you know, they, they don't bother to get experience. They don't get the learning that they need to. The boys that you chased away were from the village, they're not from, they're not from around here. So, you know, you have to keep that in mind.

[Assistant] Was there a, I mean, were they disapproving of the, or was it alright for you to be there but somehow not for Ruth to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I did finally go back and raise that same question to the guy that I was going to talk to. I said, how can, how can there be people who are so animal-like, you know? And he was a teacher himself. He said, well, you know, you have to understand that there are differences. You know, we have a lot of kids who just don't understand. They just, they listen to old stories and wives’ tales and, you know, they, they don't bother to get experience. They don't get the learning that they need to. The boys that you chased away were from the village, they're not from, they're not from around here. So, you know, you have to keep that in mind.

[Assistant] Was there a, I mean, were they disapproving of the, or was it alright for you to be there but somehow not for Ruth to be?

[User] For, in their mind, yeah. They, they thought sending, for American men to come over is one thing. But when you start sending American ladies.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] What are you doing? You know, you're really changing things and we're not, we're not prepared for that.

[Assistant] Did people you work with have access to American films? I know Indian films were a big thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For, in their mind, yeah. They, they thought sending, for American men to come over is one thing. But when you start sending American ladies.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] What are you doing? You know, you're really changing things and we're not, we're not prepared for that.

[Assistant] Did people you work with have access to American films? I know Indian films were a big thing.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. First, the first week we were there, we went to see John Wayne in Hatari, and George got his pocket picked in the lobby.

[Assistant] And were they dubbed into Hindi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What are you doing? You know, you're really changing things and we're not, we're not prepared for that.

[Assistant] Did people you work with have access to American films? I know Indian films were a big thing.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. First, the first week we were there, we went to see John Wayne in Hatari, and George got his pocket picked in the lobby.

[Assistant] And were they dubbed into Hindi?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So the, some impressions of American culture then were coming via the movies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In order for us to watch the movies, we'd have to read the English subtitles.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I saw The Birds that way. Alfred Hitchcock.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And yeah, it was every Sunday morning they, they showed English movies at the cinema. So Sunday mornings were a good time to go get a, get a refresher on what was happening.

[Assistant] Health generally during your first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I saw The Birds that way. Alfred Hitchcock.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And yeah, it was every Sunday morning they, they showed English movies at the cinema. So Sunday mornings were a good time to go get a, get a refresher on what was happening.

[Assistant] Health generally during your first year?

[User]
Yeah, we had a serious health problem. I had amoebiasis [or amebiasis] to deal with. I lost a lot of weight due to that. The biggest problem I had to deal with was headaches. And I realized at one point I'm taking an awful lot of aspirin, you know, just to function. I thought, how am I going to take? Here's what happened. I said, I've got to take this aspirin, but I can't take it with water and I won't have any good water here. So I said, fine, well, give me, give me some tea so I can take this aspirin. And okay, here. I said, wait a minute. How many cups of tea have I had so far today? It's like 2:00 in the afternoon and I start counting all the cups of tea that I had had that day. And I got to over 16 and I wasn't, you know, and I still had more places to visit.

I thought, oh, this is, uh, I'm going to have to make some changes. So we had to refine the, the, I went cold turkey on tea for a while and that straightened it out. But whew.

[Assistant] Did you have to go into the Peace Corps office for medical treatment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yeah, it was every Sunday morning they, they showed English movies at the cinema. So Sunday mornings were a good time to go get a, get a refresher on what was happening.

[Assistant] Health generally during your first year?

[User]
Yeah, we had a serious health problem. I had amoebiasis [or amebiasis] to deal with. I lost a lot of weight due to that. The biggest problem I had to deal with was headaches. And I realized at one point I'm taking an awful lot of aspirin, you know, just to function. I thought, how am I going to take? Here's what happened. I said, I've got to take this aspirin, but I can't take it with water and I won't have any good water here. So I said, fine, well, give me, give me some tea so I can take this aspirin. And okay, here. I said, wait a minute. How many cups of tea have I had so far today? It's like 2:00 in the afternoon and I start counting all the cups of tea that I had had that day. And I got to over 16 and I wasn't, you know, and I still had more places to visit.

I thought, oh, this is, uh, I'm going to have to make some changes. So we had to refine the, the, I went cold turkey on tea for a while and that straightened it out. But whew.

[Assistant] Did you have to go into the Peace Corps office for medical treatment?

[User] No. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. [tape break]

[Assistant] We're talking about?

[User] Yeah, we were talking about Dr. Dutt. He had offices in the local hospital, which was quite a proper British hospital that had been in service for probably 40 or 50 years.

[Assistant] Indian?

[User] Yeah. Indian hospital.

[Assistant] Yeah. Was he Indian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was. He was trained in India and was a Brahmin, I believe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was very experienced, very kind. I thought of him as a very experienced uncle.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And took care of a number of medical problems.

[Assistant] He had access to drugs like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was very experienced, very kind. I thought of him as a very experienced uncle.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And took care of a number of medical problems.

[Assistant] He had access to drugs like?

[User] Sure. Whatever. Yeah.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps, according to, was all right for you to be treated by him and to take the prescriptions that he suggested?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Whatever. Yeah.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps, according to, was all right for you to be treated by him and to take the prescriptions that he suggested?

[User] Yeah. We got several visits, though, from nurses that came up from the New Delhi office in the, in the Wagoneer.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they were primarily concerned about making sure we were getting the, the health treatment that we needed.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you. All right, let me jump back. You ended up using bicycles to get around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We got several visits, though, from nurses that came up from the New Delhi office in the, in the Wagoneer.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they were primarily concerned about making sure we were getting the, the health treatment that we needed.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you. All right, let me jump back. You ended up using bicycles to get around.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[Assistant] How big an area were you covering?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were primarily concerned about making sure we were getting the, the health treatment that we needed.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you. All right, let me jump back. You ended up using bicycles to get around.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[Assistant] How big an area were you covering?

[User] Huge area. You could drive on a bike. Let's see. To the north of a Udaipur into several villages, probably 15 miles in one direction and 15 miles in the other direction so.

[Assistant] Did you and George tend to go out together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, yeah, there wasn't much point in duplicating each other. And so we, uh, we were pretty good. George tended to work a lot more with Dave Wilson. He was the Indian 19 guy in agriculture out at the Rural Institute.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And. I guess Dave is, Dave Wilson was a guy from Montana that always wore his cowboy hat and boots and had a real rapport with people. I mean, he just, he was laid back and just had a great time wherever he was doing whatever he was doing. You could just tell that the man was satisfied.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] My style was completely different. I was, I was high energy. I wanted to get done, you know. So I made it a point of, of saying, Dave, you go your way, you do your stuff. I've got to do something else, all right? But George didn't mind that. George, George was also a, uh. George and I made an interesting mix. He was also interested in the ministry in the Congregational Church. He was from New Haven, Connecticut. And his style was to work with people, you know, get things. Get consensus, build consensus. I was out there basically to find results.

[Assistant] Well, at any point, let's sort of stick within the first year time frame. Did you feel that you were pushing faster than the people you're working with could accept? I mean, that your need to achieve X was far greater than theirs and you build in that disparity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, they had heard that the business that we were talking about was going to help everybody. This is a win, a win-win for everybody.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So what was, what we were waiting for? You know, where is this big miracle you guys are talking about? And I was anxious to respond as much as possible. And George, George's response to that was, you know, you've basically been misinformed, you know. What we're trying to do here is not to. And it's a good approach. We're not trying to change your life, okay? We want to help you from where you are, which is a good, good, solid approach. We want to help you from where you are. And if things get better, great. If not, we're going to solve a problem.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] To the best of our ability. My attitude was a bit more, you know, you want it done? Fine, let's do it. Let's get it done, you know?

[Assistant] Well, did people, Indians, ever get annoyed with you because you wanted to see it done within the next three days? And their timeframe was significantly different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To the best of our ability. My attitude was a bit more, you know, you want it done? Fine, let's do it. Let's get it done, you know?

[Assistant] Well, did people, Indians, ever get annoyed with you because you wanted to see it done within the next three days? And their timeframe was significantly different?

[User] Let me tell you what really changed my approach.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay.

[User]
After about three or four months, I recall going to the home of Dr. Mehta. Dr. Mehta is an attorney and I believe he was also a member of the Indian Communist Party, CPI, Communist Party of India. His son and I had a conversation in which I recall asking, well, what do you, what do you think about George and I as volunteers? And he looked at me for a long time. This kid was about 13 years old. And he said, we think you're a couple of jokers. I said, really, why? He says, well, you know, you're always, you always have something really funny to say. And, you know, that set me back. I said, well, thank you very much.

We had another conversation about a year later in which he, he told me that he thought we were doing a good job. We're different from Bob and Jim. But he said, you know, there are so many people now who believe that this is a good thing, they said. We thank you. We all thank you. That was great.

[Assistant] Did you, were you called in for conferences with Peace Corps and was the discussion of what your role was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me tell you what really changed my approach.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay.

[User]
After about three or four months, I recall going to the home of Dr. Mehta. Dr. Mehta is an attorney and I believe he was also a member of the Indian Communist Party, CPI, Communist Party of India. His son and I had a conversation in which I recall asking, well, what do you, what do you think about George and I as volunteers? And he looked at me for a long time. This kid was about 13 years old. And he said, we think you're a couple of jokers. I said, really, why? He says, well, you know, you're always, you always have something really funny to say. And, you know, that set me back. I said, well, thank you very much.

We had another conversation about a year later in which he, he told me that he thought we were doing a good job. We're different from Bob and Jim. But he said, you know, there are so many people now who believe that this is a good thing, they said. We thank you. We all thank you. That was great.

[Assistant] Did you, were you called in for conferences with Peace Corps and was the discussion of what your role was?

[User] Our three month seminar was there in [inaudible], and then we had a six month seminar down in Goa and a one year seminar later on. I'm not sure where that was.

[Assistant] What came out of that in your own mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we even had one guy that went completely native. I think he's still living over there. Uh, and one guy that went home on a, uh, on a insanity thing.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yeah, he was, he was taken home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He was taken out of his situation.

[Assistant]
Yeah. Uh, but for the most part, we were a remarkable group.

Was Peace Corps giving you the tools with which to evaluate your own progress, or would they sort of suggesting, well, you're doing well, you're not doing well. You should be looking to this area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was taken out of his situation.

[Assistant]
Yeah. Uh, but for the most part, we were a remarkable group.

Was Peace Corps giving you the tools with which to evaluate your own progress, or would they sort of suggesting, well, you're doing well, you're not doing well. You should be looking to this area.

[User] I think they were. Every time we got together, the attitude of the staff was, tell us what you're doing, because we need to keep in touch. We need to use, we'd like to use as much information as you can give us to help decide what's going to happen next. And that really, that came through loud and clear. At the end of the, into our second year, we actually had the opportunity to work with the, with the training for India 34 and 35.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Who were getting their training in country. These guys were coming fresh from home. And wow, I don't think I would have wished that, myself. You know.

[Assistant] I think the idea was to get more mileage of the two year tour, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they were. Every time we got together, the attitude of the staff was, tell us what you're doing, because we need to keep in touch. We need to use, we'd like to use as much information as you can give us to help decide what's going to happen next. And that really, that came through loud and clear. At the end of the, into our second year, we actually had the opportunity to work with the, with the training for India 34 and 35.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Who were getting their training in country. These guys were coming fresh from home. And wow, I don't think I would have wished that, myself. You know.

[Assistant] I think the idea was to get more mileage of the two year tour, I mean.

[User] Yeah. So I think that they had a slightly higher attrition rate, higher than necessary too. I know of a young married couple that went through India 34 and I, uh, I really had hoped that their situation could have been much more developed, but they were out in really primitive, primitive conditions, living in mud huts. We, I mean, our hearts went out to them.

[Assistant] Yeah. A couple of things about living conditions. Did you, did you seek out and find fellow Methodists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I didn't do that. But I did have quite a lot of contact with the local United Church of North India.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Because that's where Ruth and I were married. We, we did our wedding there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And went through all the red tape of finding a missionary who was licensed to marry foreigners. Not, not easy to come by.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Christmas, was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because that's where Ruth and I were married. We, we did our wedding there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And went through all the red tape of finding a missionary who was licensed to marry foreigners. Not, not easy to come by.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Christmas, was that?

[User] I honestly do not. I'm sure it would have been something that we tried to celebrate, probably by writing letters home, that sort of thing. But it was really no big deal for us. We were surprised that so many Indians in India celebrated our holidays. And I wondered how, how sincere is this, really? But no, Christmas was, was a big deal, bigger probably for them than it was for us.

[Assistant] Was there, within the town, the city that you were in, was there a significant Christian population?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And went through all the red tape of finding a missionary who was licensed to marry foreigners. Not, not easy to come by.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Christmas, was that?

[User] I honestly do not. I'm sure it would have been something that we tried to celebrate, probably by writing letters home, that sort of thing. But it was really no big deal for us. We were surprised that so many Indians in India celebrated our holidays. And I wondered how, how sincere is this, really? But no, Christmas was, was a big deal, bigger probably for them than it was for us.

[Assistant] Was there, within the town, the city that you were in, was there a significant Christian population?

[User] Uh, there probably was. There probably was. But I, uh, did not come in contact with them as such.

[Assistant] Missionaries had been active up there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I honestly do not. I'm sure it would have been something that we tried to celebrate, probably by writing letters home, that sort of thing. But it was really no big deal for us. We were surprised that so many Indians in India celebrated our holidays. And I wondered how, how sincere is this, really? But no, Christmas was, was a big deal, bigger probably for them than it was for us.

[Assistant] Was there, within the town, the city that you were in, was there a significant Christian population?

[User] Uh, there probably was. There probably was. But I, uh, did not come in contact with them as such.

[Assistant] Missionaries had been active up there.

[User] Sure, they had.

[Assistant] For a long time. Yeah. All right. Coming toward the end of the first year, by then had you and Ruth decided to get married?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, there probably was. There probably was. But I, uh, did not come in contact with them as such.

[Assistant] Missionaries had been active up there.

[User] Sure, they had.

[Assistant] For a long time. Yeah. All right. Coming toward the end of the first year, by then had you and Ruth decided to get married?

[User] Yes. We had actually decided that after the three month conference.

[Assistant] And how did Peace Corps take to all this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, they had.

[Assistant] For a long time. Yeah. All right. Coming toward the end of the first year, by then had you and Ruth decided to get married?

[User] Yes. We had actually decided that after the three month conference.

[Assistant] And how did Peace Corps take to all this?

[User] You know, I remember Felix Connaught writing me a letter after my first request was denied. You know, my first request was to visit Ruth in her site down in Satara. And he said, you know, we don't normally encourage fraternization between volunteers when they're supposed to be in their sites doing their jobs. And I wrote back to him saying, Mr. Connaught, please, sir, you don't understand. You know, this thing with Ruth and I is not some kind of a, you know, temporary thing. You know, we're, we really are going to get married. And so that's why this is necessary. And I said, we'll, we'll be doing the best we can, you know, to maintain everything.

[Assistant] You did have vacation time, though, didn't you, coming after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think he went to, um, where was it, with the, or the Princess Hope.

[Assistant] Nepal?

[User] Sikkim.

[Assistant] Sikkim, okay.

[User] He went to Sikkim, of all places. And Nepal. And I never got to those places. The farthest east I ever got was Benaras.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you were, you were also then concentrating on seeing routes and working out the details.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sikkim.

[Assistant] Sikkim, okay.

[User] He went to Sikkim, of all places. And Nepal. And I never got to those places. The farthest east I ever got was Benaras.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you were, you were also then concentrating on seeing routes and working out the details.

[User] Yeah. And we also had our honeymoon that we used our vacation time for, so I think we were saving up for that. So, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't stay in your village for the honeymoon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He went to Sikkim, of all places. And Nepal. And I never got to those places. The farthest east I ever got was Benaras.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you were, you were also then concentrating on seeing routes and working out the details.

[User] Yeah. And we also had our honeymoon that we used our vacation time for, so I think we were saving up for that. So, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't stay in your village for the honeymoon?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you travel outside of India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And we also had our honeymoon that we used our vacation time for, so I think we were saving up for that. So, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't stay in your village for the honeymoon?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you travel outside of India?

[User] No. Well, if you can call Kashmir outside India. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you specifically forbidden to travel outside the country? Do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you travel outside of India?

[User] No. Well, if you can call Kashmir outside India. Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you specifically forbidden to travel outside the country? Do you recall?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] It was an issue in some places.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I think we probably were.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Except for, you know, they said unless you're actually traveling home, we didn't, we don't think you're going to be interested in doing any of that. But they did want us to travel as much as possible within the country so that we could become more aware of all the conditions.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know. But that was all, in my mind that was all, you know, when they said as much as possible, that was, you know, keeping in mind that your first priority is getting the work done.

[Assistant] Coming to the end of the first year, you're about to get married. Did you look back over the year? What was your sense of, you know, you joined the Peace Corps way back then and was it happening? You know, where were you with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Except for, you know, they said unless you're actually traveling home, we didn't, we don't think you're going to be interested in doing any of that. But they did want us to travel as much as possible within the country so that we could become more aware of all the conditions.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know. But that was all, in my mind that was all, you know, when they said as much as possible, that was, you know, keeping in mind that your first priority is getting the work done.

[Assistant] Coming to the end of the first year, you're about to get married. Did you look back over the year? What was your sense of, you know, you joined the Peace Corps way back then and was it happening? You know, where were you with that?

[User] Everything seemed to be moving very quickly. I had been the person, somehow I got designated the official report writer. After each month we had to send a report, or I was sending monthly reports into Delhi and letting them know what our results were in terms of helping the cooperative, what our requirements were.

[Assistant] Did you have a form that you used?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know. But that was all, in my mind that was all, you know, when they said as much as possible, that was, you know, keeping in mind that your first priority is getting the work done.

[Assistant] Coming to the end of the first year, you're about to get married. Did you look back over the year? What was your sense of, you know, you joined the Peace Corps way back then and was it happening? You know, where were you with that?

[User] Everything seemed to be moving very quickly. I had been the person, somehow I got designated the official report writer. After each month we had to send a report, or I was sending monthly reports into Delhi and letting them know what our results were in terms of helping the cooperative, what our requirements were.

[Assistant] Did you have a form that you used?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was just an open ended.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything seemed to be moving very quickly. I had been the person, somehow I got designated the official report writer. After each month we had to send a report, or I was sending monthly reports into Delhi and letting them know what our results were in terms of helping the cooperative, what our requirements were.

[Assistant] Did you have a form that you used?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was just an open ended.

[User] Just an open ended thing. I think the reason I got designated was I was the only one with a typewriter, so.

[Assistant] And every month you had a report.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just an open ended thing. I think the reason I got designated was I was the only one with a typewriter, so.

[Assistant] And every month you had a report.

[User] I, I don't know if I had to, but I did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I got usually quite prompt replies from the office.

[Assistant] And they all went to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I don't know if I had to, but I did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I got usually quite prompt replies from the office.

[Assistant] And they all went to?

[User] The north regional office in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Who in turn?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I got usually quite prompt replies from the office.

[Assistant] And they all went to?

[User] The north regional office in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Who in turn?

[User] They, they, uh, there was a central office for India also.

[Assistant] Was there ever concern that they were sharing that with the CIA or that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The north regional office in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Who in turn?

[User] They, they, uh, there was a central office for India also.

[Assistant] Was there ever concern that they were sharing that with the CIA or that?

[User] No, none at all, because it was made quite clear that there would be no, uh, no ties with the CIA at all during the time we were there. And they said, in case you're thinking of joining the CIA after you leave the Peace Corps, forget it. You have to wait at least two years, you know, in which case none of your information would be that valuable. So don't worry about that.

[Assistant] And your reporting essentially was, was job oriented.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, they, uh, there was a central office for India also.

[Assistant] Was there ever concern that they were sharing that with the CIA or that?

[User] No, none at all, because it was made quite clear that there would be no, uh, no ties with the CIA at all during the time we were there. And they said, in case you're thinking of joining the CIA after you leave the Peace Corps, forget it. You have to wait at least two years, you know, in which case none of your information would be that valuable. So don't worry about that.

[Assistant] And your reporting essentially was, was job oriented.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I mean, it wasn't like the local Communist Party has been staging rallies on this issue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I mean, it wasn't like the local Communist Party has been staging rallies on this issue.

[User] You know, I, I don't think I ever even mentioned Mr. Mehta's, or Dr. Mehta's, affiliation officially in writing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I just, I knew that some other people recognized him as a member of the CPI.

[Assistant] So end of the first year, you were ready to, did you set any new goals for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I, I don't think I ever even mentioned Mr. Mehta's, or Dr. Mehta's, affiliation officially in writing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I just, I knew that some other people recognized him as a member of the CPI.

[Assistant] So end of the first year, you were ready to, did you set any new goals for yourself?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Being a married man.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, we, we made a conscious decision somewhere around there to introduce broilers.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And make a concerted effort to market poultry, meat products. And the reason for that was made abundantly clear when one of our most successful poultry farmers got into big trouble with the local authorities when he, he evicted all the young males from his poultry flock and let them run wild. He said, I'm not feeding you anymore.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, yeah, they were, it was quite a circus.

[Assistant] Now, culturally were, culturally were most people vegetarian? Or they just, there was very little protein in the diet?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The, the Muslims were not vegetarian at all.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And the, there were some, the Brahmans of course were vegetarian and there were some religious sects like the Jains who were pure vegetarian. They wouldn't even touch milk. I mean, the Brahmins would drink milk. But, you know, the funny thing was all of them would eat vegetarian eggs if you told them they were vegetarian eggs.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But then they wouldn't then take the next step of eating chicken.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the, there were some, the Brahmans of course were vegetarian and there were some religious sects like the Jains who were pure vegetarian. They wouldn't even touch milk. I mean, the Brahmins would drink milk. But, you know, the funny thing was all of them would eat vegetarian eggs if you told them they were vegetarian eggs.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But then they wouldn't then take the next step of eating chicken.

[User] Oh, no. Well, anyone who would eat meat would eat chicken. A lot of, a lot of people had prohibitions against certain kinds of meat, but meat was the one, chicken was the one meat that was common to all meat eaters.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. But then within the contemporary culture, people did not know how to cook chicken? I mean, they gave him a chicken.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But then they wouldn't then take the next step of eating chicken.

[User] Oh, no. Well, anyone who would eat meat would eat chicken. A lot of, a lot of people had prohibitions against certain kinds of meat, but meat was the one, chicken was the one meat that was common to all meat eaters.

[Assistant] Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. But then within the contemporary culture, people did not know how to cook chicken? I mean, they gave him a chicken.

[User] Right, yeah.

[Assistant] So that, how did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You might see some chickens hanging in the local bazaar by their feet, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you assume that people would take them home and cook them somehow.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Generally what people would do would be to make curry.

[Assistant] Okay. Chop it up and throw it in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many of the people that are on that list have since flown to the Mir on the Shuttle, many as the commander. Charlie Precourt commanded two trips to Mir since his DOR duties. So learning the language and learning how Mir operates, learning to interface with the people and everything, I think, has helped those people quite a bit when they travel back to Mir. Baker was a commander going to the Mir. Let's see. Ken Cameron did. Readdy did. Wendy flew to the Mir twice as a Shuttle crew member.\n\n I think it will also be beneficial to them for future work with the Russian on the International Space Station.

[Assistant] So they have some on the job training for future work.

[User] Right. I think most of them thought that it was kind of fun to do, but they were initially worried that it took them out of the mainstream also, but I think it has turned out to them that it's been worth the experience.

[Assistant] More of an investment.

[User] Yes, I think so.

[Assistant] They were a small part of the operations in Russia, or a large part? Would you expand a little more on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I think most of them thought that it was kind of fun to do, but they were initially worried that it took them out of the mainstream also, but I think it has turned out to them that it's been worth the experience.

[Assistant] More of an investment.

[User] Yes, I think so.

[Assistant] They were a small part of the operations in Russia, or a large part? Would you expand a little more on that?

[User] I'd say a large part, because establishing a good working relationship with the Russians was very important, and establishing everything that our astronauts needed while in Russia was very important for the successful training and successful operation completely of the Phase 1 program, so they were very important to get all that established. They helped establish requirements for things like the communications that I mentioned earlier, helped us to understand a little bit more of the system that we had to go through to get those things accomplished. Generally they were our eyes in Russia, and were very valuable.\n\n I said earlier that early on we had to travel to Russia, and it was still important for us to travel to Russia a lot, but with somebody there that understood our side and the way we operated, that could directly talk to the Russians, it was not necessary to travel nearly as often.

[Assistant] Do you believe that this full time presence in this capacity helped the Russians feel more confident or more secure in the United States' commitment to the operation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Russians have been pretty good about it. On their own, I guess because we had provided the cosmonauts that were training in the US, pretty nice housing, they have built additional housing for our astronauts that is to Western standards. They initially provided cosmonaut housing for our astronauts and that was typically kind of a high-rise apartment arrangement. The apartments were nice by Russian standards, but the new housing is even nicer and is close to the Profy.\n\n They have now built a total of three of these cottages and because Space Station training has already started, we are leasing all three.

[Assistant] On the opposite side of the world, tell us how you arranged for housing for the cosmonauts. Was that difficult or was that an easy part of your task?

[User] There are a couple of people that worked for me when I was the Russian Projects Office. I should mention Kathy Dawes ran the language school.\n\n Travis Brice also was another person that you might want to talk to. He's the contracts person, and also took care of most of the things like housing for the cosmonauts and things like that. Travis has done several things for us, including the com center that I mentioned earlier. He was instrumental in working those details to establish the center. He also worked to get better rates for the primary hotel we use in Russia, the Penta. He's worked the language contracts for us. He also works the contract with the Russian for DOR support.

[Assistant] Okay. I will find him.

[User] He's now right across the corner from me here.

[Assistant] Then he's easy to find. That's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are a couple of people that worked for me when I was the Russian Projects Office. I should mention Kathy Dawes ran the language school.\n\n Travis Brice also was another person that you might want to talk to. He's the contracts person, and also took care of most of the things like housing for the cosmonauts and things like that. Travis has done several things for us, including the com center that I mentioned earlier. He was instrumental in working those details to establish the center. He also worked to get better rates for the primary hotel we use in Russia, the Penta. He's worked the language contracts for us. He also works the contract with the Russian for DOR support.

[Assistant] Okay. I will find him.

[User] He's now right across the corner from me here.

[Assistant] Then he's easy to find. That's good.

[User] There have been difficulties as far as determining what the cosmonauts expect, and them deciding what it is that they can ask for and what they should ask for. Some, of course, are more bold about asking for things than others. In their own country, the cosmonauts have a very high status. Around here, astronauts and cosmonauts are not treated quite as highly, I guess, as what they are accustomed to, but we did gave them nice housing and good treatment. A couple of them just thought that they needed other things that we probably didn't think of at the beginning, but we try to work with them in every way to make them comfortable.

[Assistant] I guess that was just one more part of the evolution as you went through and learned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He's now right across the corner from me here.

[Assistant] Then he's easy to find. That's good.

[User] There have been difficulties as far as determining what the cosmonauts expect, and them deciding what it is that they can ask for and what they should ask for. Some, of course, are more bold about asking for things than others. In their own country, the cosmonauts have a very high status. Around here, astronauts and cosmonauts are not treated quite as highly, I guess, as what they are accustomed to, but we did gave them nice housing and good treatment. A couple of them just thought that they needed other things that we probably didn't think of at the beginning, but we try to work with them in every way to make them comfortable.

[Assistant] I guess that was just one more part of the evolution as you went through and learned.

[User] That's true. In some cases, we were just learning expectations and learning how people normally behaved. It's been interesting, overall, just learning the differences in cultures and things like that. I'm sure you've been told that over and over again.

[Assistant] And everyone's had different experiences with it. I was going to ask you what you felt was probably some of the more challenging aspects of getting through this Phase 1 project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Training is an issue in Phase 2 thing that we've got to work a lot. In Phase 1, like I said very early, we anticipated generally that we were going to use their training system. I mean, we were a guest in their country to participate in their program, the same way when a cosmonaut came over here, we didn't do anything differently in Shuttle training.\n\n In Phase 1, we made changes, but we tried to keep those to a minimum, just because we knew that we weren't supposed to make a lot of changes. In Phase 2, there will be a lot of differences, though.

[Assistant] I imagine, though, that if many changes in the flexibility that you had during the last three or four years, that at least with the new phase, you'll have a little bit more time to put things in place. So you're well prepared for the future.

[User] Yes. We have time, but yet crews right now are several months into training for Phase 2, and already the training materials are behind schedule to support the training. So we're behind, actually, for Phase 2.

[Assistant] I guess we'll never catch up. [Laughter]

[User] Not until we're well established. Probably ten years from now, after the station is flying around, we'll finally catch up and have everything established.

[Assistant] Out of all of the things that you've done for Phase 1, do you find anything, one thing or a couple of things that you feel that were significant contributions based on your personal contributions to the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We have time, but yet crews right now are several months into training for Phase 2, and already the training materials are behind schedule to support the training. So we're behind, actually, for Phase 2.

[Assistant] I guess we'll never catch up. [Laughter]

[User] Not until we're well established. Probably ten years from now, after the station is flying around, we'll finally catch up and have everything established.

[Assistant] Out of all of the things that you've done for Phase 1, do you find anything, one thing or a couple of things that you feel that were significant contributions based on your personal contributions to the program?

[User] The most significant things, I think, are just making things easier to work with the Russians, like the communications, and once we got there, the transportation, making it easier to deal with them and for us to work in Russia. I think those were the biggest things that I contributed. As far as training goes, we established some good working relationships, and that's significant. But generally just being able to work with and in Russia, I think, would be the biggest thing that we've done in Phase 1 and what I've done both in the program office and what I'm doing now.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not until we're well established. Probably ten years from now, after the station is flying around, we'll finally catch up and have everything established.

[Assistant] Out of all of the things that you've done for Phase 1, do you find anything, one thing or a couple of things that you feel that were significant contributions based on your personal contributions to the program?

[User] The most significant things, I think, are just making things easier to work with the Russians, like the communications, and once we got there, the transportation, making it easier to deal with them and for us to work in Russia. I think those were the biggest things that I contributed. As far as training goes, we established some good working relationships, and that's significant. But generally just being able to work with and in Russia, I think, would be the biggest thing that we've done in Phase 1 and what I've done both in the program office and what I'm doing now.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant]
This concludes our interview. Do you have anything you [Davison] want to ask?

I'll ask one question, see if you can clear up. We talked to Jeff [Cardenas] about the science training, and we talked to you about the systems training. We haven't really heard how those two mesh, whether they are run in parallel, or are they all over in Russia or some in the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The most significant things, I think, are just making things easier to work with the Russians, like the communications, and once we got there, the transportation, making it easier to deal with them and for us to work in Russia. I think those were the biggest things that I contributed. As far as training goes, we established some good working relationships, and that's significant. But generally just being able to work with and in Russia, I think, would be the biggest thing that we've done in Phase 1 and what I've done both in the program office and what I'm doing now.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant]
This concludes our interview. Do you have anything you [Davison] want to ask?

I'll ask one question, see if you can clear up. We talked to Jeff [Cardenas] about the science training, and we talked to you about the systems training. We haven't really heard how those two mesh, whether they are run in parallel, or are they all over in Russia or some in the United States?

[User] Some was in the United States and some was in Russia. Generally, all the systems training for Mir was done in Russia, and science training also was done in Russia and the US. Actually, Jeff had a person there that worked with the Russia schedulers to schedule in the science training so it ran in parallel.\n\n The sessions that we had back here generally concentrated mostly on science, with a little of time for the cosmonauts to learn some about Shuttle, for their docked activities. There were two US sessions of 3 weeks each. I think we ended up with ninety six hours each session of science training.

[Assistant] Was there integration training within the Mir mockup or the Spektr or the Priroda, a mockup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant]
This concludes our interview. Do you have anything you [Davison] want to ask?

I'll ask one question, see if you can clear up. We talked to Jeff [Cardenas] about the science training, and we talked to you about the systems training. We haven't really heard how those two mesh, whether they are run in parallel, or are they all over in Russia or some in the United States?

[User] Some was in the United States and some was in Russia. Generally, all the systems training for Mir was done in Russia, and science training also was done in Russia and the US. Actually, Jeff had a person there that worked with the Russia schedulers to schedule in the science training so it ran in parallel.\n\n The sessions that we had back here generally concentrated mostly on science, with a little of time for the cosmonauts to learn some about Shuttle, for their docked activities. There were two US sessions of 3 weeks each. I think we ended up with ninety six hours each session of science training.

[Assistant] Was there integration training within the Mir mockup or the Spektr or the Priroda, a mockup?

[User] Sure. There's some of it. It took a little time to get those mockups configured with some of our science hardware and early on they didn't have much of U.S. science in there. Crews could see what the mockup looked like inside, and some of the science configuration, but not all of the hardware was there, and not all of it was kept up to date as far as the configuration goes. But our guys generally did get time in all the Russian trainers, and we got some pretty valuable training in the Russian trainers, I think.

[Assistant] Thanks again. We wish you luck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh wow. Let's see. I had been married in September of '68 and was at Yale working to support my husband through graduate school. And he needed to avoid the draft further. So we chose to go into Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ok, let's go. Where he done your undergraduate work?

[User] I did my undergraduate work at St. Olaf College in Minnesota.

[Assistant] At Saint?

[User] Olaf.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. What was your degree in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did my undergraduate work at St. Olaf College in Minnesota.

[Assistant] At Saint?

[User] Olaf.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. What was your degree in?

[User] Art, but headed for architecture.

[Assistant] And where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Olaf.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. What was your degree in?

[User] Art, but headed for architecture.

[Assistant] And where had you grown up?

[User] I grew up in Decorah, Iowa, a small town of six thousand in the northeast corner of Iowa.

[Assistant] One might consider it a rural community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Art, but headed for architecture.

[Assistant] And where had you grown up?

[User] I grew up in Decorah, Iowa, a small town of six thousand in the northeast corner of Iowa.

[Assistant] One might consider it a rural community?

[User] A small rural area, yes.

[Assistant] And you go to high school there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A small rural area, yes.

[Assistant] And you go to high school there?

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Siblings?

[User] I have two brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] So during high school, were you active in volunteer activities? What did you do in summers, get to do any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did.

[Assistant] Siblings?

[User] I have two brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] So during high school, were you active in volunteer activities? What did you do in summers, get to do any travel?

[User] No, I probably hadn't left the state of Iowa, except for Minnesota, maybe to Rochester or La Crosse, Wisconsin. I think I had to work every summer. I had to work to earn a little bit of money.

[Assistant] Working at a store or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have two brothers and two sisters.

[Assistant] So during high school, were you active in volunteer activities? What did you do in summers, get to do any travel?

[User] No, I probably hadn't left the state of Iowa, except for Minnesota, maybe to Rochester or La Crosse, Wisconsin. I think I had to work every summer. I had to work to earn a little bit of money.

[Assistant] Working at a store or something?

[User] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was involved in, you know, Girl Scouts and church activities and typical civic kinds of things.

[Assistant] Not 4-H kind of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I probably hadn't left the state of Iowa, except for Minnesota, maybe to Rochester or La Crosse, Wisconsin. I think I had to work every summer. I had to work to earn a little bit of money.

[Assistant] Working at a store or something?

[User] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was involved in, you know, Girl Scouts and church activities and typical civic kinds of things.

[Assistant] Not 4-H kind of things?

[User] No, we did not live on a farm. It was a town of six thousand.

[Assistant] OK. Were you the first in the family to go on to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was involved in, you know, Girl Scouts and church activities and typical civic kinds of things.

[Assistant] Not 4-H kind of things?

[User] No, we did not live on a farm. It was a town of six thousand.

[Assistant] OK. Were you the first in the family to go on to college?

[User] No, my father very deliberately left a insurance company to become treasurer of Luther College so that all of us could have a college education. He had not finished a four year, but a two year program.

[Assistant] So as you're finishing high school, you're going to St. Olaf, which is close, not too far?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we did not live on a farm. It was a town of six thousand.

[Assistant] OK. Were you the first in the family to go on to college?

[User] No, my father very deliberately left a insurance company to become treasurer of Luther College so that all of us could have a college education. He had not finished a four year, but a two year program.

[Assistant] So as you're finishing high school, you're going to St. Olaf, which is close, not too far?

[User] No. Yes. Two and a half hours north.

[Assistant] And at that point, what is your goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, my father very deliberately left a insurance company to become treasurer of Luther College so that all of us could have a college education. He had not finished a four year, but a two year program.

[Assistant] So as you're finishing high school, you're going to St. Olaf, which is close, not too far?

[User] No. Yes. Two and a half hours north.

[Assistant] And at that point, what is your goal?

[User] Well, in high school, I was determined I was going to be an architect. But my parents didn't feel that I should go directly to an architecture program. And I basically had the choice to go to Luther College in my hometown or to St. Olaf, which was my mother's alma mater. So I was still determined to be an architect. So I went through St. Olaf in three years so that I could start architecture school as soon as possible.

[Assistant] Where did the interest in architecture come from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Yes. Two and a half hours north.

[Assistant] And at that point, what is your goal?

[User] Well, in high school, I was determined I was going to be an architect. But my parents didn't feel that I should go directly to an architecture program. And I basically had the choice to go to Luther College in my hometown or to St. Olaf, which was my mother's alma mater. So I was still determined to be an architect. So I went through St. Olaf in three years so that I could start architecture school as soon as possible.

[Assistant] Where did the interest in architecture come from?

[User] Well, in part, I suppose, I followed my father around as he was the sort of client for the college in the college buildings. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah, but it was there. So you zipped through St. Olaf in three years. During summers, you're working.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in high school, I was determined I was going to be an architect. But my parents didn't feel that I should go directly to an architecture program. And I basically had the choice to go to Luther College in my hometown or to St. Olaf, which was my mother's alma mater. So I was still determined to be an architect. So I went through St. Olaf in three years so that I could start architecture school as soon as possible.

[Assistant] Where did the interest in architecture come from?

[User] Well, in part, I suppose, I followed my father around as he was the sort of client for the college in the college buildings. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah, but it was there. So you zipped through St. Olaf in three years. During summers, you're working.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in part, I suppose, I followed my father around as he was the sort of client for the college in the college buildings. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Yeah, but it was there. So you zipped through St. Olaf in three years. During summers, you're working.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And any travel?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you finished you and your degree is in art. What happens at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And any travel?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you finished you and your degree is in art. What happens at that point?

[User] Well, at that point, I get married and my architecture is delayed. But with the understanding, I mean, I met my future husband at St. Olaf, and he was in an architecture program at Yale. So it was agreed that I would work to help him through school and then I would go to graduate school.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. At what point through your time at St. Olaf do you remember when you first heard about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you finished you and your degree is in art. What happens at that point?

[User] Well, at that point, I get married and my architecture is delayed. But with the understanding, I mean, I met my future husband at St. Olaf, and he was in an architecture program at Yale. So it was agreed that I would work to help him through school and then I would go to graduate school.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. At what point through your time at St. Olaf do you remember when you first heard about the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, not exactly. I don't, I mean, it was a pretty cloistered school. I mean, yes, we knew Kennedy and Vietnam and all that kind of but, but we were so focused on academics. At least I was.

[Assistant] Had you known anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at that point, I get married and my architecture is delayed. But with the understanding, I mean, I met my future husband at St. Olaf, and he was in an architecture program at Yale. So it was agreed that I would work to help him through school and then I would go to graduate school.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. At what point through your time at St. Olaf do you remember when you first heard about the Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, not exactly. I don't, I mean, it was a pretty cloistered school. I mean, yes, we knew Kennedy and Vietnam and all that kind of but, but we were so focused on academics. At least I was.

[Assistant] Had you known anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. So you then transferred. You go over to New Haven.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, not exactly. I don't, I mean, it was a pretty cloistered school. I mean, yes, we knew Kennedy and Vietnam and all that kind of but, but we were so focused on academics. At least I was.

[Assistant] Had you known anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. So you then transferred. You go over to New Haven.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're working in your husband's going to architecture school. Did he finish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. So you then transferred. You go over to New Haven.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're working in your husband's going to architecture school. Did he finish?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you didn't start.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're working in your husband's going to architecture school. Did he finish?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you didn't start.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Instead, you joined the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you didn't start.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Instead, you joined the Peace Corps.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And essentially, it was a sense of continuing. Did he feel he was safer from the draft in the Peace Corps than at architectural school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Instead, you joined the Peace Corps.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] And essentially, it was a sense of continuing. Did he feel he was safer from the draft in the Peace Corps than at architectural school?

[User] Well, I mean, once you finished that, deferment was over. You had no choice really.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was pretty much a done deal then in both of your minds. Do you recall applying, filling out the application?