[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All those things. One of the fellows I knew at Ames was the one that started this business called AirTEC. I became his representative in the area, and it became my biggest seller. They were the ones making these amplifiers that went to the Moon shot. It all sort of ties together.

[Assistant]
It does, yes. Good friendships that started.

Are you involved with the alumni group for the NACA?

[User] No, but I’ll tell you one thing I did do that involved, I guess it may have been NASA by then. They had a group that took classes of young kids, maybe fourth, fifth, sixth graders, and Ames had a simulator. Does this ring a bell?

[Assistant] I know they had simulators.

[User] They simulated a spaceship, so you bring these kids in, and there’s different stations in there. Here’s this kid that sits down at the station, and he has a computer there, and you say, “Okay, you’re in a spaceship and you’re observing forest fires down on the ground, and you can tell how hot it is by the color of the fire.” Then, you can tell space control what’s happening, are the fires burning brighter on the north side? Here’s fourth and fifth graders with this job to do, and they’re looking at the computer screen and telling the captain of their spaceship, and he’s another kid, fourth grader or fifth grader who’s the captain of the spaceship, and he’s telling somebody else down on the Earth. The kids just loved it.

[Assistant] Did you help with those groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but I’ll tell you one thing I did do that involved, I guess it may have been NASA by then. They had a group that took classes of young kids, maybe fourth, fifth, sixth graders, and Ames had a simulator. Does this ring a bell?

[Assistant] I know they had simulators.

[User] They simulated a spaceship, so you bring these kids in, and there’s different stations in there. Here’s this kid that sits down at the station, and he has a computer there, and you say, “Okay, you’re in a spaceship and you’re observing forest fires down on the ground, and you can tell how hot it is by the color of the fire.” Then, you can tell space control what’s happening, are the fires burning brighter on the north side? Here’s fourth and fifth graders with this job to do, and they’re looking at the computer screen and telling the captain of their spaceship, and he’s another kid, fourth grader or fifth grader who’s the captain of the spaceship, and he’s telling somebody else down on the Earth. The kids just loved it.

[Assistant] Did you help with those groups?

[User] I was one of the workers, but then they cut the program off. They said they didn’t have the money, and it was a shame. The teachers would bring the classes in.

[Assistant] They learned a lot, didn’t they, just by being exposed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They simulated a spaceship, so you bring these kids in, and there’s different stations in there. Here’s this kid that sits down at the station, and he has a computer there, and you say, “Okay, you’re in a spaceship and you’re observing forest fires down on the ground, and you can tell how hot it is by the color of the fire.” Then, you can tell space control what’s happening, are the fires burning brighter on the north side? Here’s fourth and fifth graders with this job to do, and they’re looking at the computer screen and telling the captain of their spaceship, and he’s another kid, fourth grader or fifth grader who’s the captain of the spaceship, and he’s telling somebody else down on the Earth. The kids just loved it.

[Assistant] Did you help with those groups?

[User] I was one of the workers, but then they cut the program off. They said they didn’t have the money, and it was a shame. The teachers would bring the classes in.

[Assistant] They learned a lot, didn’t they, just by being exposed?

[User] They just loved it.

[Assistant] Have you ever been back out to Ames, other than that then working with those groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was one of the workers, but then they cut the program off. They said they didn’t have the money, and it was a shame. The teachers would bring the classes in.

[Assistant] They learned a lot, didn’t they, just by being exposed?

[User] They just loved it.

[Assistant] Have you ever been back out to Ames, other than that then working with those groups?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They just loved it.

[Assistant] Have you ever been back out to Ames, other than that then working with those groups?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was it?

[User] No, I haven’t.

[Assistant] It’s changed again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That was it?

[User] No, I haven’t.

[Assistant] It’s changed again.

[User] I’m sure it has.

[Assistant] It’s getting ready to celebrate its 75th anniversary, so they’ll have an open house, maybe you’ll have a chance to go take a ride out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I haven’t.

[Assistant] It’s changed again.

[User] I’m sure it has.

[Assistant] It’s getting ready to celebrate its 75th anniversary, so they’ll have an open house, maybe you’ll have a chance to go take a ride out there.

[User] When is that?

[Assistant] October, I believe they said. I haven’t heard the whole date, but if I find out, I’ll send you an email. I won’t be here, but you can go and you can tell us about it.\n\n Is there anything else you can think of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sure it has.

[Assistant] It’s getting ready to celebrate its 75th anniversary, so they’ll have an open house, maybe you’ll have a chance to go take a ride out there.

[User] When is that?

[Assistant] October, I believe they said. I haven’t heard the whole date, but if I find out, I’ll send you an email. I won’t be here, but you can go and you can tell us about it.\n\n Is there anything else you can think of?

[User] I don’t think so. Everything contributes, I guess.

[Assistant] It does because I’ve never heard about the glass monster before. That was pretty neat, and about the whole electronics side. We hadn’t heard too much about that, either. I think Mr. [Smith J.]DeFrance was the Director—did you ever have any dealings with him, or ever meet him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When is that?

[Assistant] October, I believe they said. I haven’t heard the whole date, but if I find out, I’ll send you an email. I won’t be here, but you can go and you can tell us about it.\n\n Is there anything else you can think of?

[User] I don’t think so. Everything contributes, I guess.

[Assistant] It does because I’ve never heard about the glass monster before. That was pretty neat, and about the whole electronics side. We hadn’t heard too much about that, either. I think Mr. [Smith J.]DeFrance was the Director—did you ever have any dealings with him, or ever meet him?

[User] Not personally. I tried to stay away. He was the boss. Smith J. DeFrance.

[Assistant] That’s a name, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. Everything contributes, I guess.

[Assistant] It does because I’ve never heard about the glass monster before. That was pretty neat, and about the whole electronics side. We hadn’t heard too much about that, either. I think Mr. [Smith J.]DeFrance was the Director—did you ever have any dealings with him, or ever meet him?

[User] Not personally. I tried to stay away. He was the boss. Smith J. DeFrance.

[Assistant] That’s a name, isn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That sounds like a boss’s name. When we send you the transcript, if you think of something else, then we can add it in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's not good. We absolutely couldn't find anything wrong. I was in the blockhouse. The Air Force leaders in the blockhouse. Lewis [G.] Dunn was in the blockhouse. We were at countdown, countdown. Everything was okay. There was no problem. The telemetry was perfect. But it blew up. So all the pieces were taken, we laid them out. Every scrap of film that anybody had was used.\n\n And one day about—took about a month, we were looking at a film and there was a Douglas aircraft technician, two of them, pulling a liquid oxygen hose, with the back of it in the dirt. Even a few grains of sand in a percussion, under pressure, in liquid oxygen can be an explosion, and there was, because of the requirement that to shift the fuel from a ground tank to what was in the missile itself, there was a great big valve there, and that was reproduced after it was tested and some sand was put in, an explosion was created. You could then see that the pieces of the valve could only go together if they had broken outwardly, and that led, then, to a conclusion that what caused the failure was a fire and explosion of dirty— [Laughter] Naturally, that changed the procedures. But after all that work, all the work, it was a dumb thing. [Laughter] And luckily, the next one flew.

[Assistant] You learned lessons from the first one and were able to apply them.

[User] That was kind of an exciting time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] A very exciting time, overall.

[User] Now, Si Ramo, who, among all of his other characteristics, has a fantastic sense of humor, said, "Well, we've shown it can fly. The only problem is, it has a 1,500-mile CEP [Circular Error Probable]." [Laughter] It was aimed to go into a spot down range, which it never got to. So we missed that.

[Assistant] Only missed by 1,500.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was kind of an exciting time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] A very exciting time, overall.

[User] Now, Si Ramo, who, among all of his other characteristics, has a fantastic sense of humor, said, "Well, we've shown it can fly. The only problem is, it has a 1,500-mile CEP [Circular Error Probable]." [Laughter] It was aimed to go into a spot down range, which it never got to. So we missed that.

[Assistant] Only missed by 1,500.

[User] By 1,500 miles. Maybe he told you that story, I don't know.

[Assistant] He mentioned it briefly. He did. So it's good to hear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, Si Ramo, who, among all of his other characteristics, has a fantastic sense of humor, said, "Well, we've shown it can fly. The only problem is, it has a 1,500-mile CEP [Circular Error Probable]." [Laughter] It was aimed to go into a spot down range, which it never got to. So we missed that.

[Assistant] Only missed by 1,500.

[User] By 1,500 miles. Maybe he told you that story, I don't know.

[Assistant] He mentioned it briefly. He did. So it's good to hear.

[User] I saw it from the other end.

[Assistant] As you were doing these programs and beginning to flight test the missiles and having successes and failures, how much was the public aware of what was going on? And if they were, what was their reaction, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By 1,500 miles. Maybe he told you that story, I don't know.

[Assistant] He mentioned it briefly. He did. So it's good to hear.

[User] I saw it from the other end.

[Assistant] As you were doing these programs and beginning to flight test the missiles and having successes and failures, how much was the public aware of what was going on? And if they were, what was their reaction, do you recall?

[User] Generally, I think the public was not aware of very much of what was going on. Obviously, once the missiles got to the launch stage, the test stage, and they were there, it was known. But in the earliest period, there was pretty good security.\n\n Ramo-Wooldridge, as Si may have mentioned, started in a barbershop, chairs were moved out for office space. But then the next facility was a Catholic church, and the pews and the choir loft were emptied. The computer was put there, and that was the next office building. And General Schriever, who was across the street in a building, had his officers and his headquarters there. After a little while, there was a question among some of the local residents, "Why are these Air Force officers in civilian clothes cashing checks here?" [Laughter] But it was not known what precisely they were doing. So for, I'd say, probably for the first year and a half, until the launches began, it was pretty well held.

[Assistant] As the program began to move forward and as Sputnik was going up, and then the Americans began to make efforts for launching our own satellite, were you at all involved in discussions on that, on American response to Sputnik?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had the ad that said "The last 100 miles is on us." [Laughter] Had an advertisement that was broadcast of that. And it worked.

[Assistant] It did. It worked great.

[User] One little incident. I don't know if you want these kinds of stories.

[Assistant] Certainly. Absolutely.

[User] But in about 1967 or '68, I hadn't gone, myself, to Cleveland yet at that point. I was still here on the West Coast. I had a call from the chairman of TRW. He said, "My God! We're responsible for this. The whole world's going to be watching. Oh! Is it too late to get out?" [Laughter] He was kind of kidding. "Is it too late to get out of it?"\n\n So the answer was, there was great apprehension everywhere. We had it, but the astronauts, I'm certain, had it more, about whether they could actually accomplish, and there was a question how would it be when the blast out of the engines stirred up the moon dust, and could they even see. It was just a complete adventure into new territory.

[Assistant] It must have been so rewarding to see it work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One little incident. I don't know if you want these kinds of stories.

[Assistant] Certainly. Absolutely.

[User] But in about 1967 or '68, I hadn't gone, myself, to Cleveland yet at that point. I was still here on the West Coast. I had a call from the chairman of TRW. He said, "My God! We're responsible for this. The whole world's going to be watching. Oh! Is it too late to get out?" [Laughter] He was kind of kidding. "Is it too late to get out of it?"\n\n So the answer was, there was great apprehension everywhere. We had it, but the astronauts, I'm certain, had it more, about whether they could actually accomplish, and there was a question how would it be when the blast out of the engines stirred up the moon dust, and could they even see. It was just a complete adventure into new territory.

[Assistant] It must have been so rewarding to see it work.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you were when they landed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But in about 1967 or '68, I hadn't gone, myself, to Cleveland yet at that point. I was still here on the West Coast. I had a call from the chairman of TRW. He said, "My God! We're responsible for this. The whole world's going to be watching. Oh! Is it too late to get out?" [Laughter] He was kind of kidding. "Is it too late to get out of it?"\n\n So the answer was, there was great apprehension everywhere. We had it, but the astronauts, I'm certain, had it more, about whether they could actually accomplish, and there was a question how would it be when the blast out of the engines stirred up the moon dust, and could they even see. It was just a complete adventure into new territory.

[Assistant] It must have been so rewarding to see it work.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you were when they landed?

[User] Oh, I absolutely do. [Laughter] I know exactly where I was. I was in Cleveland that day, and I was in a building and took an elevator down. There was a woman in the elevator who was talking to a friend, and she says, "You know, they say they're going to land on the moon. That's ridiculous. That can't happen." [Laughter] That's what this lady thought.\n\n I went to where we lived. No point in being down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. We watched it on television.

[Assistant] And it worked wonderfully.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you were when they landed?

[User] Oh, I absolutely do. [Laughter] I know exactly where I was. I was in Cleveland that day, and I was in a building and took an elevator down. There was a woman in the elevator who was talking to a friend, and she says, "You know, they say they're going to land on the moon. That's ridiculous. That can't happen." [Laughter] That's what this lady thought.\n\n I went to where we lived. No point in being down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. We watched it on television.

[Assistant] And it worked wonderfully.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] In fact, it even worked for Apollo 13. The engine was critical in that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I absolutely do. [Laughter] I know exactly where I was. I was in Cleveland that day, and I was in a building and took an elevator down. There was a woman in the elevator who was talking to a friend, and she says, "You know, they say they're going to land on the moon. That's ridiculous. That can't happen." [Laughter] That's what this lady thought.\n\n I went to where we lived. No point in being down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. We watched it on television.

[Assistant] And it worked wonderfully.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] In fact, it even worked for Apollo 13. The engine was critical in that.

[User] Yes, it was. It was.

[Assistant] Were you involved with—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] In fact, it even worked for Apollo 13. The engine was critical in that.

[User] Yes, it was. It was.

[Assistant] Were you involved with—

[User] Yes, indeed. The minute that happened, we were on line continuously, and anybody that knew anything in TRW about that engine or anything about it was immediately available. We had a large group of engineers in Houston [Texas] on a program that was designed, I think very wisely designed, by NASA to try to anticipate things that might go wrong, so that what if this occurs, what do you do? What if this occurs, what do you do? What new software would be needed? Or whatever.\n\n So that while no one anticipated Apollo 13, there was a background there of several years of work at Houston, and we and other contractors—we were not alone in this—worked on the "what if" questions. And there's no question in my mind that that kind of preparatory information and thinking helped the people who really made the decisions when the Apollo 13 accident happened.

[Assistant] It must have been good to see that all come to a successful conclusion, getting back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was.

[Assistant] Were you involved with—

[User] Yes, indeed. The minute that happened, we were on line continuously, and anybody that knew anything in TRW about that engine or anything about it was immediately available. We had a large group of engineers in Houston [Texas] on a program that was designed, I think very wisely designed, by NASA to try to anticipate things that might go wrong, so that what if this occurs, what do you do? What if this occurs, what do you do? What new software would be needed? Or whatever.\n\n So that while no one anticipated Apollo 13, there was a background there of several years of work at Houston, and we and other contractors—we were not alone in this—worked on the "what if" questions. And there's no question in my mind that that kind of preparatory information and thinking helped the people who really made the decisions when the Apollo 13 accident happened.

[Assistant] It must have been good to see that all come to a successful conclusion, getting back.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Going back a little bit toward the early programs as the missions were progressing for the Mercury, first was Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.]. He actually went up on a Redstone, and right after his launch, President [John F.] Kennedy came out and said, "Hey, let's go to the moon by the end of the decade. Let's do it safely, bring them then back to Earth," which then led to Apollo. What did you think when you heard that announcement, that challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did.

[Assistant] As the program progressed and the manned program continued, were you able to go down and see some of these launches?

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. Many of them. [Laughter] I was in the blockhouse on many, in the '56, '57, '58 time period, but also was able to go down to the Cape and see the launches much later.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to see, having seen the launches first as a flight test to get the missile active, and for such an important part of national security and then to see them applied in such a different way, but yet the space program itself must have had some impact for national security as well.

[User] Yes, indeed, and politically for foreign policy circles. I think it was a clear demonstration, as I said earlier, of the American industrial system that was noticed and known around the whole world. So it did have broader implications.\n\n But to your question, it was very exciting. [Laughter] And to know what our hardware was going there and, of course, all of our contractors knew that and felt that, I'm sure, not just we.

[Assistant] Exciting to be a part of such a program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. Many of them. [Laughter] I was in the blockhouse on many, in the '56, '57, '58 time period, but also was able to go down to the Cape and see the launches much later.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to see, having seen the launches first as a flight test to get the missile active, and for such an important part of national security and then to see them applied in such a different way, but yet the space program itself must have had some impact for national security as well.

[User] Yes, indeed, and politically for foreign policy circles. I think it was a clear demonstration, as I said earlier, of the American industrial system that was noticed and known around the whole world. So it did have broader implications.\n\n But to your question, it was very exciting. [Laughter] And to know what our hardware was going there and, of course, all of our contractors knew that and felt that, I'm sure, not just we.

[Assistant] Exciting to be a part of such a program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Over time, and as NASA grew, as TRW grew, and as the Air Force, how did the relationships change and the involvements in the programs? Did that continue to evolve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, well, I was in that one and then I was promoted to a GS-5 technician and after a year and a half or so, I don't remember how many years, quite a few in that position. So, in 2015 I was promoted to a team lead to start up an audit team within the FRC there and then in September of 2015, I was hired on as the archivist at the Lenexa Records Center. So, I was with the FRC for 11 and a half years, roughly.

[Assistant] And did your duties change when you became a GS-5 and then a team lead?

[User] Yeah, so as of GS-5 you basically were preparing the work for the grade 4s, and so you would get the work that came in from the IRS, you would prepare a batch and get it ready and then move it on. Then the team lead, say, I was only in that position for seven months, so we had just started setting it up. I think if I remember right, just before I switched, they brought in two people to help me out because we were like, say, we spent most of that six or seven months just trying to set everything up and getting an idea of what it was going to encompass. But then I transferred out into the archives. So, I didn't have a whole lot of experience on the other side of things, so.

[Assistant] What made you decide to apply for the archives position?

[User] Well, so, I had obviously always had an interest in history with a history degree and everything. I had contemplated applying for positions at the archives before, but they were always down at the archives, which is a considerably further distance away from me. And the convenience of working at Lenexa always appealed to me. And so that position was basically the best of both worlds. I was in Lenexa and I was at the archives. And so I was like, OK, if you're going to have a position out here, I'll apply for that. So I took a swing at it and fortunately I was hired, so.

[Assistant] And so what do your duties as an archivist entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the patent files are certainly a preference, as far as a record group, but I truly enjoy reference. I enjoy working with the researchers. I have some regular researchers that generally work with companies that are looking for document retrieval services. But I've got academic researchers that contact me regularly. Most of those are for patent records. I never know what I'm going to go into, what somebody is going to ask for. And when it comes to the patent records with that, I mean, I learn things about all sorts of areas of innovation that I had no idea about before. And it's always a thrill to see what's out there.

[Assistant] Those are interesting, the patent records are a very interesting record group. You're lucky to have access to those.

[User] I consider myself very, very lucky to have those files there.

[Assistant] So, thinking back on your career, even when you were working at the records center, are there any particular challenges you faced while at the archives?

[User] Particular challenges?

[Assistant] That you faced while working; you may not have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I consider myself very, very lucky to have those files there.

[Assistant] So, thinking back on your career, even when you were working at the records center, are there any particular challenges you faced while at the archives?

[User] Particular challenges?

[Assistant] That you faced while working; you may not have.

[User] Well so, you know. I don't know, I can't think of any particular challenges necessarily, I mean, the size becomes one of the issues, particularly prior to the archives when it was a records center. The facility, I think I kind of measured it out once, and from room 1 to room 16 is in the neighborhood of maybe a third to a half of a mile. So, if you're going from one side of the place to the other, it can be a long haul, but I don't know. I can't really think of any specific challenges beyond just the physical aspect of how big the place is sometimes.

[Assistant] Yeah, the folks in the records center always did really well on those health challenges that we did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Particular challenges?

[Assistant] That you faced while working; you may not have.

[User] Well so, you know. I don't know, I can't think of any particular challenges necessarily, I mean, the size becomes one of the issues, particularly prior to the archives when it was a records center. The facility, I think I kind of measured it out once, and from room 1 to room 16 is in the neighborhood of maybe a third to a half of a mile. So, if you're going from one side of the place to the other, it can be a long haul, but I don't know. I can't really think of any specific challenges beyond just the physical aspect of how big the place is sometimes.

[Assistant] Yeah, the folks in the records center always did really well on those health challenges that we did.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. My brief time was the audit team because you were checking things all over the place. I mean, it was amazing how much walking I would do. And then when I switched to the archives, it was like, OK. And I still walk a fair way, but it's nothing like I used to. Because I just have basically three bays that I'm in. So it's a fairly small area relative to the whole place.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you're particularly proud of that you've done at the archives or major successes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not that I can think of, I've covered a lot. I could go on and on, but we'll leave it at that for now at least.

[Assistant] Well, we can always have another interview, but I did want to talk to you a little bit about COVID because it sounds like you've actually been going in, which is interesting, but we'll get there. I was going to ask you when did you first hear about COVID-19/coronavirus?

[User] Probably January of 2020, somewhere in that neighborhood. Just kind of, you know, seeing little news stories here and there, and talk about its spread. I didn't pay too much attention to it at that point.

[Assistant] I know we've been in various phases, but I guess going back to the lockdown to today, have you been going in or have you been mainly working from home?

[User] So we were open from, I believe, it was July 20 to November 6, we were in phase one, so I was going in two or three days a week, and then we just opened again March 29. So we've been in for about two weeks and again, doing two or three days a week. And then the other staff person goes in on the other days when I'm not there, so. The rest is all telework.

[Assistant] So what kind of projects have you been working on during telework?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What we needed. The IBM people came and developed FORTRAN from MAC really more than the other way around.

[Assistant] I assume FORTRAN could be adapted for other things, and maybe it was not as good for spaceflight.

[User] Yes. Then much later, in the 1990s, FORTRAN did become an algebraic language, too. But it took an awful long time.

[Assistant] I was reading an article by Don Eyles. He’s written a lot, so I was looking over some of it, and he mentioned in an article that your boss, George [W.] Cherry, once said that—this is the quote, “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” He said that George Cherry thought that software designers were considered the prima donnas by NASA because they couldn’t—and this is another quote, “quit fiddling and let the product out of the door.”\n\n How did you balance that? I would think there was a perfectionist component to what you were doing. You were trying to make things work as well, because it was a matter of life and death with the astronauts and with the hardware. How did you balance that safety aspect with the push to hurry up and get Apollo going and get things going and get it done? Was that ever a problem?

[User] I don’t think that was ever a problem. We just had to be sure that everything that we did was going to work.

[Assistant] You did that with simulations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Then much later, in the 1990s, FORTRAN did become an algebraic language, too. But it took an awful long time.

[Assistant] I was reading an article by Don Eyles. He’s written a lot, so I was looking over some of it, and he mentioned in an article that your boss, George [W.] Cherry, once said that—this is the quote, “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” He said that George Cherry thought that software designers were considered the prima donnas by NASA because they couldn’t—and this is another quote, “quit fiddling and let the product out of the door.”\n\n How did you balance that? I would think there was a perfectionist component to what you were doing. You were trying to make things work as well, because it was a matter of life and death with the astronauts and with the hardware. How did you balance that safety aspect with the push to hurry up and get Apollo going and get things going and get it done? Was that ever a problem?

[User] I don’t think that was ever a problem. We just had to be sure that everything that we did was going to work.

[Assistant] You did that with simulations?

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] How much time did you spend doing simulations and correcting the code and the programs? Was it a lot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think that was ever a problem. We just had to be sure that everything that we did was going to work.

[Assistant] You did that with simulations?

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] How much time did you spend doing simulations and correcting the code and the programs? Was it a lot?

[User] Very, very much. We simulated everything so there could be no doubt that we had tested everything and made sure that nothing was going to blow up. It was only violating the rules of the game—like allowing the astronauts to say that we’re going to start the abort guidance before it was supposed to be started—that caused things to blow up. Because that was a violation of the rules, and it sure blew up.

[Assistant] Where did you do the simulations? Was that at MIT, or did you go to different [NASA] Centers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did.

[Assistant] How much time did you spend doing simulations and correcting the code and the programs? Was it a lot?

[User] Very, very much. We simulated everything so there could be no doubt that we had tested everything and made sure that nothing was going to blow up. It was only violating the rules of the game—like allowing the astronauts to say that we’re going to start the abort guidance before it was supposed to be started—that caused things to blow up. Because that was a violation of the rules, and it sure blew up.

[Assistant] Where did you do the simulations? Was that at MIT, or did you go to different [NASA] Centers?

[User] Other Centers could use our code and work, too. In fact, they did. Even in Florida [NASA Kennedy Space Center] they would. Anybody could use the MAC language and do simulations, too. In fact, late in the mission I found out that they had already invented something in Florida that we had then reinvented later, not knowing that they had already done it.

[Assistant] It was just the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very, very much. We simulated everything so there could be no doubt that we had tested everything and made sure that nothing was going to blow up. It was only violating the rules of the game—like allowing the astronauts to say that we’re going to start the abort guidance before it was supposed to be started—that caused things to blow up. Because that was a violation of the rules, and it sure blew up.

[Assistant] Where did you do the simulations? Was that at MIT, or did you go to different [NASA] Centers?

[User] Other Centers could use our code and work, too. In fact, they did. Even in Florida [NASA Kennedy Space Center] they would. Anybody could use the MAC language and do simulations, too. In fact, late in the mission I found out that they had already invented something in Florida that we had then reinvented later, not knowing that they had already done it.

[Assistant] It was just the program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go to the other Centers for the simulations when they were running, or at any point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other Centers could use our code and work, too. In fact, they did. Even in Florida [NASA Kennedy Space Center] they would. Anybody could use the MAC language and do simulations, too. In fact, late in the mission I found out that they had already invented something in Florida that we had then reinvented later, not knowing that they had already done it.

[Assistant] It was just the program?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go to the other Centers for the simulations when they were running, or at any point?

[User] I certainly went to Florida quite a few times. I don’t remember all the reasons why I did, but I certainly did do that a lot of times.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo 12, because that was an exciting launch because of the lightning strike.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you go to the other Centers for the simulations when they were running, or at any point?

[User] I certainly went to Florida quite a few times. I don’t remember all the reasons why I did, but I certainly did do that a lot of times.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo 12, because that was an exciting launch because of the lightning strike.

[User] That’s right, it was.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I certainly went to Florida quite a few times. I don’t remember all the reasons why I did, but I certainly did do that a lot of times.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo 12, because that was an exciting launch because of the lightning strike.

[User] That’s right, it was.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that?

[User] Pete [Charles] Conrad [Jr.] had made it perfectly clear that he was a fast thinker, and he really saved the mission.

[Assistant] What did he do that saved it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, it was.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that?

[User] Pete [Charles] Conrad [Jr.] had made it perfectly clear that he was a fast thinker, and he really saved the mission.

[Assistant] What did he do that saved it?

[User] He practically instantly said, “This light is yellow, this light is blue, this light—” He just went through the entire picture of what was being warned about, and there’s no doubt in my mind that he was expecting the rocket to do this [demonstrates crashing], and that they would want to know why.\n\n But it didn’t, and the reason why it didn’t was that the lunar module was on top of the Saturn V rocket below it. Its being on top, that’s where the lightning struck. But the Saturn V rocket, the computer that was running that was halfway down in the waist of it, and was far enough away from where the lightning strike had happened that it was not stopped at all. It just lifted off normally.\n\n So it turned out that there was no real problem, it went normally into Earth orbit. The possibility that there would sometime be a need to realign everything in the lunar module had been anticipated years before, and so there was a scanning telescope and a sextant in the lunar module which could be used to reset everything in case of such a disaster happening. So everything was just reset in Earth orbit, and everything on the guidance computer resumed working normally despite having the lightning strike, and they were off to the Moon.

[Assistant] Were you listening the same way you were on Apollo 11 at MIT for that one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pete [Charles] Conrad [Jr.] had made it perfectly clear that he was a fast thinker, and he really saved the mission.

[Assistant] What did he do that saved it?

[User] He practically instantly said, “This light is yellow, this light is blue, this light—” He just went through the entire picture of what was being warned about, and there’s no doubt in my mind that he was expecting the rocket to do this [demonstrates crashing], and that they would want to know why.\n\n But it didn’t, and the reason why it didn’t was that the lunar module was on top of the Saturn V rocket below it. Its being on top, that’s where the lightning struck. But the Saturn V rocket, the computer that was running that was halfway down in the waist of it, and was far enough away from where the lightning strike had happened that it was not stopped at all. It just lifted off normally.\n\n So it turned out that there was no real problem, it went normally into Earth orbit. The possibility that there would sometime be a need to realign everything in the lunar module had been anticipated years before, and so there was a scanning telescope and a sextant in the lunar module which could be used to reset everything in case of such a disaster happening. So everything was just reset in Earth orbit, and everything on the guidance computer resumed working normally despite having the lightning strike, and they were off to the Moon.

[Assistant] Were you listening the same way you were on Apollo 11 at MIT for that one?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I imagine that gave people a few palpitations when that happened though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s right, it was. They took the camera off and brought it back to Earth. It was examined on the Earth, and they found that it did have still—there had been organisms on the Surveyor which had survived for the years between when the Surveyor landed and when it was recovered—so the sterilization proved to be not working also. So there might have been a few things there that you didn’t know about.

[Assistant] I was reading in some of the things that you’d written down that your daughter sent, and one of them was about the LM descent erratic throttling that was discovered I think after Apollo 12. Was that when you and Don Eyles were working on that, that there was a throttling problem before Apollo 11? Don Eyles had allowed a tolerance that you thought wasn’t enough, but you decided to let his decision stand and you would worry about it later, because he needed to figure it out for himself that he needed to be closer. Do you remember that incident? I thought it was an interesting way of handling things, because as a mentor for him you were letting him figure out anything that he needed to do, or if he was making a mistake or not, but at the same time if you had made him change it then we may not have been able to land on on the Moon on Apollo 11.

[User] I’m not sure exactly.

[Assistant] What we might do is when we’re through with the interviews, and if you’re okay with it, we’ll include your written information that your daughter gave us, because they’re pretty interesting stories.

[User] Yes, okay.

[Assistant] I think it says a lot about your mentorship and the way you worked with people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure exactly.

[Assistant] What we might do is when we’re through with the interviews, and if you’re okay with it, we’ll include your written information that your daughter gave us, because they’re pretty interesting stories.

[User] Yes, okay.

[Assistant] I think it says a lot about your mentorship and the way you worked with people.

[User] I always tried to give people credit for the ideas that they had, and always take the best ideas no matter who thought of them.

[Assistant] Yes, I thought it was a pretty interesting story about how it happened and the way it was handled.\n\n Also, we talked about yesterday on Apollo 13 you had gone back and talked to Jim [James A.] Lovell [Jr.]. Then the coding change that you wanted to make, they went ahead and put it in for 13 instead of waiting for 14.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, okay.

[Assistant] I think it says a lot about your mentorship and the way you worked with people.

[User] I always tried to give people credit for the ideas that they had, and always take the best ideas no matter who thought of them.

[Assistant] Yes, I thought it was a pretty interesting story about how it happened and the way it was handled.\n\n Also, we talked about yesterday on Apollo 13 you had gone back and talked to Jim [James A.] Lovell [Jr.]. Then the coding change that you wanted to make, they went ahead and put it in for 13 instead of waiting for 14.

[User] Yes, and I think I did mention yesterday that about 10:00 in the morning—when I’d hung up with Lovell at 7:00, about 10:00, my boss came into my office and said, “Your political savoir faire has reached a new low.”

[Assistant] After you coded the change and there was a meeting at JSC where it was accepted to go ahead, you also—and maybe you remember this—you described in something you’d written that you said to Bill [H. Wilson] Tindall [Jr.] that “dropping guidance commands sure is a kludge.” What did you mean by that, or what is a kludge? If you can explain to us what that is, as far as what you were concerned with. Is it something that ends up working even though it may not be something you expect to work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I always tried to give people credit for the ideas that they had, and always take the best ideas no matter who thought of them.

[Assistant] Yes, I thought it was a pretty interesting story about how it happened and the way it was handled.\n\n Also, we talked about yesterday on Apollo 13 you had gone back and talked to Jim [James A.] Lovell [Jr.]. Then the coding change that you wanted to make, they went ahead and put it in for 13 instead of waiting for 14.

[User] Yes, and I think I did mention yesterday that about 10:00 in the morning—when I’d hung up with Lovell at 7:00, about 10:00, my boss came into my office and said, “Your political savoir faire has reached a new low.”

[Assistant] After you coded the change and there was a meeting at JSC where it was accepted to go ahead, you also—and maybe you remember this—you described in something you’d written that you said to Bill [H. Wilson] Tindall [Jr.] that “dropping guidance commands sure is a kludge.” What did you mean by that, or what is a kludge? If you can explain to us what that is, as far as what you were concerned with. Is it something that ends up working even though it may not be something you expect to work?

[User] It’s something that you shouldn’t have to do, that’s the meaning that I had. But I don’t remember exactly what the details were there.

[Assistant] I know from what you’d written that Bill Tindall was a little surprised that you had said that to him. He wasn’t sure that he was okay with that. You talked about working with him yesterday and how much respect you had for him. I thought it was an interesting story, too. We can try to include that in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I think I did mention yesterday that about 10:00 in the morning—when I’d hung up with Lovell at 7:00, about 10:00, my boss came into my office and said, “Your political savoir faire has reached a new low.”

[Assistant] After you coded the change and there was a meeting at JSC where it was accepted to go ahead, you also—and maybe you remember this—you described in something you’d written that you said to Bill [H. Wilson] Tindall [Jr.] that “dropping guidance commands sure is a kludge.” What did you mean by that, or what is a kludge? If you can explain to us what that is, as far as what you were concerned with. Is it something that ends up working even though it may not be something you expect to work?

[User] It’s something that you shouldn’t have to do, that’s the meaning that I had. But I don’t remember exactly what the details were there.

[Assistant] I know from what you’d written that Bill Tindall was a little surprised that you had said that to him. He wasn’t sure that he was okay with that. You talked about working with him yesterday and how much respect you had for him. I thought it was an interesting story, too. We can try to include that in there.

[User] “Tindallgrams” [Tindall’s memoranda] are well known today.

[Assistant] Yes, they are.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s something that you shouldn’t have to do, that’s the meaning that I had. But I don’t remember exactly what the details were there.

[Assistant] I know from what you’d written that Bill Tindall was a little surprised that you had said that to him. He wasn’t sure that he was okay with that. You talked about working with him yesterday and how much respect you had for him. I thought it was an interesting story, too. We can try to include that in there.

[User] “Tindallgrams” [Tindall’s memoranda] are well known today.

[Assistant] Yes, they are.

[User] Because his thinking was so clear and so fair.

[Assistant] We’ve been talking about some of the programming. You were talking about how IBM had come in and looked at the MAC language and then they created FORTRAN. But when you were actually using these languages to create a program, if there was a problem, sometimes was it easier to do a workaround and other times maybe to just redo everything? Did you make those kinds of decisions often when you were working on those programs? Or were there instances where one person wanted to do a workaround and somebody else wanted to start from scratch and redo it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Tindallgrams” [Tindall’s memoranda] are well known today.

[Assistant] Yes, they are.

[User] Because his thinking was so clear and so fair.

[Assistant] We’ve been talking about some of the programming. You were talking about how IBM had come in and looked at the MAC language and then they created FORTRAN. But when you were actually using these languages to create a program, if there was a problem, sometimes was it easier to do a workaround and other times maybe to just redo everything? Did you make those kinds of decisions often when you were working on those programs? Or were there instances where one person wanted to do a workaround and somebody else wanted to start from scratch and redo it?

[User] There were a lot of times where people did pick among multiple different approaches to things. It was very common for different people to have different ideas about how things should work. I think that most people had the same kind of ideas that I did, that you should always use the best no matter who thought of it. I think that generally people were pretty honest about how things should be done and would discuss it. There were not very many fights.

[Assistant] So it was easy to discuss with each other and get through it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because his thinking was so clear and so fair.

[Assistant] We’ve been talking about some of the programming. You were talking about how IBM had come in and looked at the MAC language and then they created FORTRAN. But when you were actually using these languages to create a program, if there was a problem, sometimes was it easier to do a workaround and other times maybe to just redo everything? Did you make those kinds of decisions often when you were working on those programs? Or were there instances where one person wanted to do a workaround and somebody else wanted to start from scratch and redo it?

[User] There were a lot of times where people did pick among multiple different approaches to things. It was very common for different people to have different ideas about how things should work. I think that most people had the same kind of ideas that I did, that you should always use the best no matter who thought of it. I think that generally people were pretty honest about how things should be done and would discuss it. There were not very many fights.

[Assistant] So it was easy to discuss with each other and get through it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Your daughter mentioned a story that you had told her—this was after Apollo—that you were asked to rewrite a system from scratch, but you recommended that the existing system be modified instead. This was when you were already at [NASA] JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]. JPL took a team and they asked them to do the rewrite while you went ahead and did the modification or the revamping of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had already made my contribution to the Shuttle, and I don’t think I described in detail what had happened on the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Okay, let’s talk about that. That was while you were still with MIT?

[User] Yes, I was. One day my boss there at MIT told me that there had been three groups of people, mostly at [NASA] Johnson [Space Center], who were working on developing an ascent steering system for the Shuttle. But he knew that I had already developed one ascent steering system for other purposes. He said, “They’re having a meeting next Tuesday and Wednesday.” This was on a Friday.\n\n He handed me three descriptions of what the three teams at JSC were proposing to do and he said, “I’d like to have you read this over and attend the meeting and make your comments about these three things, and prepare your own ideas about how it should work.” The meetings were going to be on Tuesday and Wednesday of the next week, and so I didn’t have much time to do it, but I did make my own sketch about what I thought could be done. They were not too far different from what the other teams had done, but they were different in some basic ideas I had that it could be substantially improved.\n\n The meetings were on Tuesday and Wednesday, and the three other teams presented their ideas on Tuesday morning. Tuesday afternoon I was told to say how I would do it, and I did that. Then on Wednesday we went over the four ideas a second time, and Wednesday afternoon they took a vote on which idea should be used, and they voted for mine. So that was kind of a triumph. But I didn’t even vote.

[Assistant] You didn’t vote for yourself?

[User] I didn’t say anything more on Wednesday afternoon.

[Assistant] How long did you work on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t say anything more on Wednesday afternoon.

[Assistant] How long did you work on that?

[User] The concept had been adopted, and I knew that I was not going to be in Cambridge very long, because I had already decided years before that I was never going to work on another weapon system program, knowing what the slaughter was of Vietnamese. They were really slaughtered by American airplanes.\n\n So I knew that I wasn’t going to be there very long, so I wrote up in the last days there a description in enough detail so that the leader of the team at MIT, could complete all the details. So I did write the preliminary design for it. This was just a preliminary design, Al Engel led a team that completed the design. That’s what was used for Shuttle ascent steering.

[Assistant] Was MIT starting to do more military work at that time? Is that why you decided to leave then?

[User] What I was told was that there’s not too much chance that we’re going to get another program like Apollo, that’s probably not going to happen. But the lab was going to move to a different building. I was shown where my office would be. I didn’t say anything about it because I knew I wasn’t going to be there.

[Assistant] So the opportunity opened up at JPL to go back there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The concept had been adopted, and I knew that I was not going to be in Cambridge very long, because I had already decided years before that I was never going to work on another weapon system program, knowing what the slaughter was of Vietnamese. They were really slaughtered by American airplanes.\n\n So I knew that I wasn’t going to be there very long, so I wrote up in the last days there a description in enough detail so that the leader of the team at MIT, could complete all the details. So I did write the preliminary design for it. This was just a preliminary design, Al Engel led a team that completed the design. That’s what was used for Shuttle ascent steering.

[Assistant] Was MIT starting to do more military work at that time? Is that why you decided to leave then?

[User] What I was told was that there’s not too much chance that we’re going to get another program like Apollo, that’s probably not going to happen. But the lab was going to move to a different building. I was shown where my office would be. I didn’t say anything about it because I knew I wasn’t going to be there.

[Assistant] So the opportunity opened up at JPL to go back there?

[User] Yes, it did. I got an offer to return to JPL, so I did that, and worked on a whole lot more unmanned missions to the planets.

[Assistant] Was that mainly what you focused on once you got back, the unmanned or the robotic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I was told was that there’s not too much chance that we’re going to get another program like Apollo, that’s probably not going to happen. But the lab was going to move to a different building. I was shown where my office would be. I didn’t say anything about it because I knew I wasn’t going to be there.

[Assistant] So the opportunity opened up at JPL to go back there?

[User] Yes, it did. I got an offer to return to JPL, so I did that, and worked on a whole lot more unmanned missions to the planets.

[Assistant] Was that mainly what you focused on once you got back, the unmanned or the robotic?

[User] Yes, the robotic missions to Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Actually I had done the work on the Venus mission before I ever went to NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC].

[Assistant] Right, you had mentioned that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did. I got an offer to return to JPL, so I did that, and worked on a whole lot more unmanned missions to the planets.

[Assistant] Was that mainly what you focused on once you got back, the unmanned or the robotic?

[User] Yes, the robotic missions to Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Actually I had done the work on the Venus mission before I ever went to NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC].

[Assistant] Right, you had mentioned that.

[User] That did fly, and it did work.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about some of those robotic missions. I was reading about some of your work. You worked with Galileo and then the TOPEX [Ocean Topography Experiment]/Poseidon mission and the Mars Rover Sample Return. Those were all very high-profile robotic missions. Were you working on the guidance systems again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the robotic missions to Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Actually I had done the work on the Venus mission before I ever went to NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC].

[Assistant] Right, you had mentioned that.

[User] That did fly, and it did work.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about some of those robotic missions. I was reading about some of your work. You worked with Galileo and then the TOPEX [Ocean Topography Experiment]/Poseidon mission and the Mars Rover Sample Return. Those were all very high-profile robotic missions. Were you working on the guidance systems again?

[User] It was a sequence of a whole lot of different missions that I was asked to do things on.

[Assistant] Was it similar work for each one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That did fly, and it did work.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about some of those robotic missions. I was reading about some of your work. You worked with Galileo and then the TOPEX [Ocean Topography Experiment]/Poseidon mission and the Mars Rover Sample Return. Those were all very high-profile robotic missions. Were you working on the guidance systems again?

[User] It was a sequence of a whole lot of different missions that I was asked to do things on.

[Assistant] Was it similar work for each one?

[User] No. There were so many missions. You’re really looking for what happened in connection with Johnson.

[Assistant] Not really. We’re looking for what your work was. It doesn’t have to connect to Johnson, we’re doing this for Headquarters. This interview is for whatever you did, but I’m interested in the work that you did there.\n\n I think the robotic missions are so important, and a lot of people, when they think of NASA they think of human spaceflight. But people outside of NASA sometimes forget that these robotic missions have been going on for years and have accomplished great things. Part of that is because of the programming and the languages that you used, and the programs that you used, and people like you to guide those robotic missions. So I think it’s important to remember that. Do you have any memories of any of those missions that really stand out, of something that you were really proud of, or something that you felt like was a real accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. The JPL middle management always chose the languages that things were going to be programmed in. So all in all I had programmed—and by the time everything was done I had programmed in like the six different languages.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, six different ones.

[User] Yes, something like six. It was about six. But there was just no question about what language was the best language. It was ADA.

[Assistant] Is that what you used when you were at JPL the most?

[User] No, because I can’t account for bad decisions. I think middle management at JPL was not as good as the management at the Draper Lab. Management of the Draper Laboratory was superb, and that’s not true of the middle management at JPL.

[Assistant] You didn’t work on that. Do you remember when Spirit and Opportunity landed on Mars? Were you in the control room, or were you already retired at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, something like six. It was about six. But there was just no question about what language was the best language. It was ADA.

[Assistant] Is that what you used when you were at JPL the most?

[User] No, because I can’t account for bad decisions. I think middle management at JPL was not as good as the management at the Draper Lab. Management of the Draper Laboratory was superb, and that’s not true of the middle management at JPL.

[Assistant] You didn’t work on that. Do you remember when Spirit and Opportunity landed on Mars? Were you in the control room, or were you already retired at that point?

[User] Yes, I did not see it actually. We had already left California on our way to Massachusetts to find a place to live.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career—and it was 44 years—is there anything that you can think of that you think might have been your greatest challenge that you worked on? Or the thing that you’re most proud of that you accomplished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because I can’t account for bad decisions. I think middle management at JPL was not as good as the management at the Draper Lab. Management of the Draper Laboratory was superb, and that’s not true of the middle management at JPL.

[Assistant] You didn’t work on that. Do you remember when Spirit and Opportunity landed on Mars? Were you in the control room, or were you already retired at that point?

[User] Yes, I did not see it actually. We had already left California on our way to Massachusetts to find a place to live.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career—and it was 44 years—is there anything that you can think of that you think might have been your greatest challenge that you worked on? Or the thing that you’re most proud of that you accomplished?

[User] The answer to that is, I’d have to say that it was organizing to take a group of people, all men, to march in the march against the wars in Washington [DC], and to help to alleviate the prejudice against the blacks.\n\n When I was at NASA Headquarters in Washington and we lived in Falls Church, Virginia, lots of times we were going to eat dinner out, and we’d go to some restaurant and there would be a sign on the door, “Blacks need not apply,” or whatever. That they weren’t going to feed the blacks. I would always go in and ask to speak to the manager, and I don’t think that that ever failed. I always told the manager, “When that sign on your door is gone we’ll eat here, but not now.”

[Assistant] That’s commendable. Not many people would do that, would take that upon themselves to stand up for other people like that, that’s wonderful. I would be proud of that, too. You definitely need to be proud of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as you go through it, or as you see holes or conflicts with other people's discussions, you can give me a call.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yes, I'd be glad to help in any way I can.

[Assistant] Wonderful. Well, this has been fascinating.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] I want to thank you. [Brief interruption]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I was really excited. Yeah, I remember being really excited. I was in like another sort of volunteer position at the time. I was a teaching assistant at a bilingual school in Costa Rica, K through 12, that had a connection with my college. And so I'd been able to go there like basically straight from graduating. So I was in Costa Rica at the time and I was really excited to have like the opportunity to go to Peace Corps so soon after that, you know, to keep continuing like that an international experience.

[Assistant] And as your family or friends heard about this, what did they think?

[User] They were kind of, like I mentioned, you know, I didn't know anyone personally like before going to college that had done Peace Corps. So they were kind of like, what? Why do you want to do this? And what is it exactly again? Which I totally understood because it wasn't that long ago that, like, I didn't really know about it either. And so I just kind of talked through it. And my family has always been really supportive. So they kind of came around to the idea of like, this is what you want to do and we'll support you in that. I definitely didn't get some of those initial reactions of like, are you crazy? So, yeah, but my family, my mom, did end up coming to visit me like once a year while I was in the D.R. So that was really nice to be able to like to share that with her too.

[Assistant] Did you prepare yourself in any way before you left?

[User] Um. In what way? Like any way, specifically? Or just?

[Assistant] Read about the D.R. or look at what resources you had you might want to take with you or things like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were kind of, like I mentioned, you know, I didn't know anyone personally like before going to college that had done Peace Corps. So they were kind of like, what? Why do you want to do this? And what is it exactly again? Which I totally understood because it wasn't that long ago that, like, I didn't really know about it either. And so I just kind of talked through it. And my family has always been really supportive. So they kind of came around to the idea of like, this is what you want to do and we'll support you in that. I definitely didn't get some of those initial reactions of like, are you crazy? So, yeah, but my family, my mom, did end up coming to visit me like once a year while I was in the D.R. So that was really nice to be able to like to share that with her too.

[Assistant] Did you prepare yourself in any way before you left?

[User] Um. In what way? Like any way, specifically? Or just?

[Assistant] Read about the D.R. or look at what resources you had you might want to take with you or things like that.

[User] Yeah, yeah, I remember I think I joined a Facebook group slightly before, a little bit before leaving, where people talked about, you know, like what things were good to bring. Peace Corps sent me a packing list so I looked at that. And I read up on the D.R. I've never been there. And so I think I had stopped once in the Bahamas on a cruise, but that was like my only experience of being in the Caribbean even at all. So read up on like the region and like Dominican history and culture and environmental stuff and things like that. Um, you know, like trying to get a sense of what it might be like and things like that. I remember buying a few things like hiking boots, headlamp, things like that too.

[Assistant] Let's talk a little about the training, how it prepared you for your assignment. Who did the training and what did it cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's really amazing how much it varies even within the size of the country.

[Assistant] Yeah. Makes training difficult.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you know if any volunteers were asked to leave during the training process?

[User] Asked to leave during training?

[Assistant] Or did some decide to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you know if any volunteers were asked to leave during the training process?

[User] Asked to leave during training?

[Assistant] Or did some decide to leave?

[User] An older couple had left, like a couple who were both retired. One was a retired teacher. I can't remember off hand what the other one did. Um, but they'd end up leaving because they had, one of them had like kind of recurring like health issues and ended up thinking, you know, like, it's not worth it for me to be like have my health failing like this when they don't have to stay here. And so they ended up ETing, I think, like within a couple of weeks after moving out to site because they just weren't getting better. But yeah, that was after training. I don't remember anyone leaving during training.

[Assistant] OK. What were your initial reactions to the people and the physical environment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] El Palmar.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the people in El Palmar?

[User]
Yeah, so it was like traditionally like an agricultural community, not so much the sugar cane, but people would have like conucos, like their little farms, generally not super big scale. You know, something like one family can manage, just like on their own or with like a little bit of help here and there, like hiring other people. So growing plantains was really common. Also, some people had cows and some other like fruits and vegetables like people would have. But that was generally more like not like industrial scale, but more just kind of like people planting trees like in their yards, like a tree here and there, like in their conucos, in their farms or gardens. So a lot of that, yeah. And then some people would have jobs like in the sugar cane fields too.

And it didn't have, like that community doesn't have like the kind of Haitian descendant connection, you know, it wasn't founded like as a batey. So it tends to be more like strictly Dominican. And so a lot of people would get sometimes like slightly higher up jobs or like higher up jobs in the sugar cane, you know, like to be not cutting a cane, but like to be like a mechanic, like helping to fix like some of the machinery that was breaking and things like that. And so that was also like an income source for people in the community. Yeah, generally very relaxing. It wasn't like urban community or anything like that.

[Assistant] Was there a town center?

[User] They have a central park. Yeah. And so that's probably like the biggest town center. The school tends to also be like a big, like an important place in the community. There's a primary school and a high school.

[Assistant] What were the specifics of the job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Why did you extend it and how did your role change?

[User] I really loved living in the D.R. I mean, definitely lots of challenges, you know, kind of comes with the territory. But I felt that like I hadn't gotten really settled in the country, you know, like settled into the work and felt like, you know, there's kind of like a learning curve in figuring out what works and what doesn't and building relationships, all that stuff. And I had really, it had taken me probably about a year to get, like really, really settled. So at that point, I was like, now I want to stay, like now that I've gotten settled. And I had grown to really love the south, too, and there were still lots of volunteers in that area. And so it was great. I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to stay in that area and help support like new volunteers and like the volunteers who are already there. So I guess that's kind of why I wanted to stay. I was really happy.

[Assistant] You were based in the southwest as part of your regional role?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you're working with all the volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really loved living in the D.R. I mean, definitely lots of challenges, you know, kind of comes with the territory. But I felt that like I hadn't gotten really settled in the country, you know, like settled into the work and felt like, you know, there's kind of like a learning curve in figuring out what works and what doesn't and building relationships, all that stuff. And I had really, it had taken me probably about a year to get, like really, really settled. So at that point, I was like, now I want to stay, like now that I've gotten settled. And I had grown to really love the south, too, and there were still lots of volunteers in that area. And so it was great. I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to stay in that area and help support like new volunteers and like the volunteers who are already there. So I guess that's kind of why I wanted to stay. I was really happy.

[Assistant] You were based in the southwest as part of your regional role?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you're working with all the volunteers.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. Not like sector specific.

[Assistant] Talk a little more about how you interacted with them. What was your principal role or what did you see as your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you're working with all the volunteers.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. Not like sector specific.

[Assistant] Talk a little more about how you interacted with them. What was your principal role or what did you see as your?

[User]
Yeah, some of it was like, I thought a big part of what I was doing was kind of like helping people and kind of learn to navigate the area like new volunteers. You know, like this is what's around and these are like things that other volunteers have found helpful. These are like some programs that other volunteers nearby like already have up and running. So like, maybe there are ways you can collaborate with people in your community or like bring trainers over to, like, help train the people in new volunteer's communities. And then I would do some stuff here and there, like helping with like site development stuff for like communities that wanted, like, you know, heard about Peace Corps or the Peace Corps had visited and were interested in getting a volunteer to go and talk with the community about, like what their priorities were like, what they wanted and like why they're interested in having a volunteer and visit with host families and things like that.

At one point, I ended up going on like a really long trip to visit like a bunch of different host families when they were short on people to do that. Like all around, like a big loop around the country practically, like all kinds of places that were really remote. And so that was that was really fun because I got to go to a lot of places I hadn't been to before and it was. I liked that like being able to help kind of like lay the groundwork, I guess, for volunteers to be able to move in there and get started and like work with the community. So yeah.

[Assistant] I didn't ask you, but had there been volunteers in your community before you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, some of it was like, I thought a big part of what I was doing was kind of like helping people and kind of learn to navigate the area like new volunteers. You know, like this is what's around and these are like things that other volunteers have found helpful. These are like some programs that other volunteers nearby like already have up and running. So like, maybe there are ways you can collaborate with people in your community or like bring trainers over to, like, help train the people in new volunteer's communities. And then I would do some stuff here and there, like helping with like site development stuff for like communities that wanted, like, you know, heard about Peace Corps or the Peace Corps had visited and were interested in getting a volunteer to go and talk with the community about, like what their priorities were like, what they wanted and like why they're interested in having a volunteer and visit with host families and things like that.

At one point, I ended up going on like a really long trip to visit like a bunch of different host families when they were short on people to do that. Like all around, like a big loop around the country practically, like all kinds of places that were really remote. And so that was that was really fun because I got to go to a lot of places I hadn't been to before and it was. I liked that like being able to help kind of like lay the groundwork, I guess, for volunteers to be able to move in there and get started and like work with the community. So yeah.

[Assistant] I didn't ask you, but had there been volunteers in your community before you got there?

[User] No, I was the first one.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah, they had somehow gotten in touch with the environmental APCD at the time. And through that, they kind of worked out that they would like to have a volunteer. And so, yeah, so I ended up being the first one sent there.

[Assistant] Is that Alberto Rodriguez?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was the first one.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah, they had somehow gotten in touch with the environmental APCD at the time. And through that, they kind of worked out that they would like to have a volunteer. And so, yeah, so I ended up being the first one sent there.

[Assistant] Is that Alberto Rodriguez?

[User] Yeah, mm hmm. Yeah.

[Assistant] Let's look back at your service now. What do you think were your main accomplishments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. I think definitely like letting the community lead the way is like super important and like, you know, just coming in as like people from another country, you know, trying to like working in a developing country. I think that's definitely something we have to be sensitive to. You know, like, this is not our country and it should be the people that live there, you know, like leading the way on projects and things like that. So I think that's important to know and like always keep relearning all the ways in which that is like kind of played out. And really having the community and the country as a whole, like lead the way and like the direction that the work is taking and like the projects that are prioritized and things like that can be really complicated to put that in practice. Because obviously there are lots of different priorities and it depends who you talk to. But yeah, I think that's definitely like a really big lesson.

I think also like I think Peace Corps does a pretty good job of this as a whole, but like putting a lot of value on like relationships, you know, things that may not have like a specific, you know, data output, for example. But yeah, I think that is a really, like Peace Corps is in a really unique position to be able to like to have people build relationships across cultures and international boundaries and like all kinds of different things. And so I think like keeping a big focus on that is definitely like a lesson learned. Yeah.

[Assistant] You filled out the volunteer report form as part of your service?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It was quarterly, annually, biannually?

[User] Oh gosh. I remember doing it multiple times. I want to say it was quarterly. I should know off hand, but I think it was quarterly if you ended up doing it, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you find it useful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It was quarterly, annually, biannually?

[User] Oh gosh. I remember doing it multiple times. I want to say it was quarterly. I should know off hand, but I think it was quarterly if you ended up doing it, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you find it useful?

[User] Yeah, I really liked that it was detailed and I think I'm not remembering a lot of the specifics, but I think it did even kind of take into account some stuff that isn't kind of traditionally counted as like data. You know, there's more kinds of like community relationship focus values. And I remember like liking that it was really, really in depth. You know, I was like counting how many students have participated in groups and like things like that. I thought that was really good. It's been a while since I filled it out. But yeah.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep a copy for your own records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gosh. I remember doing it multiple times. I want to say it was quarterly. I should know off hand, but I think it was quarterly if you ended up doing it, yeah.

[Assistant] Did you find it useful?

[User] Yeah, I really liked that it was detailed and I think I'm not remembering a lot of the specifics, but I think it did even kind of take into account some stuff that isn't kind of traditionally counted as like data. You know, there's more kinds of like community relationship focus values. And I remember like liking that it was really, really in depth. You know, I was like counting how many students have participated in groups and like things like that. I thought that was really good. It's been a while since I filled it out. But yeah.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep a copy for your own records?

[User] I think so. I remember filling it out and definitely sending in a copy. But I think the way that we filled it out at the time, I'm not sure if it's changed, like you downloaded like a blank copy and then filled it out. And so I could keep it and then I could use it to, you know, like build off of for like future things too. So I could see, you know, like, well, it's kind of like helped me also, you know, like take a look at how things had changed over time. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I probably still have the copies on my computer.

[Assistant] You know, it's both quantitative and qualitative. A lot of it was trying to have volunteers express, you know, their own feelings about what was going on, not just the task orientation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I really liked that it was detailed and I think I'm not remembering a lot of the specifics, but I think it did even kind of take into account some stuff that isn't kind of traditionally counted as like data. You know, there's more kinds of like community relationship focus values. And I remember like liking that it was really, really in depth. You know, I was like counting how many students have participated in groups and like things like that. I thought that was really good. It's been a while since I filled it out. But yeah.

[Assistant] Were you able to keep a copy for your own records?

[User] I think so. I remember filling it out and definitely sending in a copy. But I think the way that we filled it out at the time, I'm not sure if it's changed, like you downloaded like a blank copy and then filled it out. And so I could keep it and then I could use it to, you know, like build off of for like future things too. So I could see, you know, like, well, it's kind of like helped me also, you know, like take a look at how things had changed over time. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I probably still have the copies on my computer.

[Assistant] You know, it's both quantitative and qualitative. A lot of it was trying to have volunteers express, you know, their own feelings about what was going on, not just the task orientation.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was almost like a diary in many respects. It'd be interesting to go back and look at what you had written.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I remember filling it out and definitely sending in a copy. But I think the way that we filled it out at the time, I'm not sure if it's changed, like you downloaded like a blank copy and then filled it out. And so I could keep it and then I could use it to, you know, like build off of for like future things too. So I could see, you know, like, well, it's kind of like helped me also, you know, like take a look at how things had changed over time. So yeah, I'm pretty sure that I probably still have the copies on my computer.

[Assistant] You know, it's both quantitative and qualitative. A lot of it was trying to have volunteers express, you know, their own feelings about what was going on, not just the task orientation.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was almost like a diary in many respects. It'd be interesting to go back and look at what you had written.

[User] Yeah, might be, yeah. I haven't looked back at that whole thing since. I remember, I mean, I looked at them often while I was a volunteer, but since I don't think I have. It would be really good to go back and look now.

[Assistant] How did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future? I know it's only been a couple of years and you're still trying to figure it out. But do you see the influence in your thinking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it was almost like a diary in many respects. It'd be interesting to go back and look at what you had written.

[User] Yeah, might be, yeah. I haven't looked back at that whole thing since. I remember, I mean, I looked at them often while I was a volunteer, but since I don't think I have. It would be really good to go back and look now.

[Assistant] How did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future? I know it's only been a couple of years and you're still trying to figure it out. But do you see the influence in your thinking?

[User] Yeah, for sure. One way that I think is I'd always really liked writing before Peace Corps. And then I was in Peace Corps, I would like write emails that come to family and friends. And, you know, kind of like, I had some internet, you know, I was generally on the internet like at least once a week. So I wasn't, you know, like super super remote. But I would try to send kind of like batch emails to people so I could still like keep in touch with like friends and family back home and like former coworkers and professors and people like that. And so I kind of really loved that, like telling them the experience, and also like, you know, you see a lot as a volunteer in like the, you know, like social justice realm, like environmental stuff, like racial discrimination. And so I kind of like got hooked on the idea of like going into journalism and like writing about stories like that. Um, so yeah, Peace Corps definitely influenced that. And I did end up going to grad school for journalism and doing some like journalism internships and fellowships and things like that. I'm kind of looking now to get more back into the sort of like direct service world, but I hope that I can still tie in that like storytelling aspect in some form into my work in the future.

[Assistant] In terms of Peace Corps' three goals, have you thought of your service in terms of those goals?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, sounds pretty similar.

[Assistant] You might enjoy it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You've only been out three years now, three or four years. Have you maintained a connection back to the D.R. in this time period?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Who do you stay in touch with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You've only been out three years now, three or four years. Have you maintained a connection back to the D.R. in this time period?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Who do you stay in touch with?

[User] I have been in touch with my host family and my site pretty regularly. I just recently got back in touch with my host family from my training, like our community-based training, too. So that was really great. Also like the project partner that I most worked with, Darbin, is like working in an NGO now. I stayed in touch with him a lot. A few other folks that I had met in my same community too. Yeah, a handful of people that I was closest with in my community, I still stay in touch with.

[Assistant] And since you've been here, I know you've joined the RPCV- W program and the mentor program. Are there other third goal activities that you've been involved with since you've returned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Who do you stay in touch with?

[User] I have been in touch with my host family and my site pretty regularly. I just recently got back in touch with my host family from my training, like our community-based training, too. So that was really great. Also like the project partner that I most worked with, Darbin, is like working in an NGO now. I stayed in touch with him a lot. A few other folks that I had met in my same community too. Yeah, a handful of people that I was closest with in my community, I still stay in touch with.

[Assistant] And since you've been here, I know you've joined the RPCV- W program and the mentor program. Are there other third goal activities that you've been involved with since you've returned?

[User] Not that I know of. None that I can think of offhand. I don't think. I'm really glad to have participated in those. I got kind of like bogged down in like grad school and job searching and things like that for a while. So it's been great to be able to reconnect in that way and definitely would like to do more.

[Assistant] Few other questions here in terms of other things you want to talk about, like you noted on some of the questions that could be asked. Did you send photos or videos home or post them online?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have been in touch with my host family and my site pretty regularly. I just recently got back in touch with my host family from my training, like our community-based training, too. So that was really great. Also like the project partner that I most worked with, Darbin, is like working in an NGO now. I stayed in touch with him a lot. A few other folks that I had met in my same community too. Yeah, a handful of people that I was closest with in my community, I still stay in touch with.

[Assistant] And since you've been here, I know you've joined the RPCV- W program and the mentor program. Are there other third goal activities that you've been involved with since you've returned?

[User] Not that I know of. None that I can think of offhand. I don't think. I'm really glad to have participated in those. I got kind of like bogged down in like grad school and job searching and things like that for a while. So it's been great to be able to reconnect in that way and definitely would like to do more.

[Assistant] Few other questions here in terms of other things you want to talk about, like you noted on some of the questions that could be asked. Did you send photos or videos home or post them online?

[User] Yeah, I also had like a little blog while I was a volunteer. It was like pretty similar to the emails I would send. And so that, yeah, I tried to do that like pretty regularly once a month. And I got paired up, I think, pretty early in my service, with a school in Pennsylvania, like near to where I had gone to college, where we would kind of do like some pen pal exchanges.

[Assistant] What local school was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that I know of. None that I can think of offhand. I don't think. I'm really glad to have participated in those. I got kind of like bogged down in like grad school and job searching and things like that for a while. So it's been great to be able to reconnect in that way and definitely would like to do more.

[Assistant] Few other questions here in terms of other things you want to talk about, like you noted on some of the questions that could be asked. Did you send photos or videos home or post them online?

[User] Yeah, I also had like a little blog while I was a volunteer. It was like pretty similar to the emails I would send. And so that, yeah, I tried to do that like pretty regularly once a month. And I got paired up, I think, pretty early in my service, with a school in Pennsylvania, like near to where I had gone to college, where we would kind of do like some pen pal exchanges.

[Assistant] What local school was it?

[User] They were. It was a middle school. I can't remember exactly which grades, but I think it was like seventh and eighth grades off the top of my head. Yeah. And so we would talk like here and there, set up like Skype dates. And like the students, I would kind of be like the interpreter and the students could ask each other questions, like the Dominican students in the youth group could ask questions of like the students in the classroom, like in the 7th grade classrooms.

[Assistant] Was this through the Paul Coverdell World Wise Schools program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I also had like a little blog while I was a volunteer. It was like pretty similar to the emails I would send. And so that, yeah, I tried to do that like pretty regularly once a month. And I got paired up, I think, pretty early in my service, with a school in Pennsylvania, like near to where I had gone to college, where we would kind of do like some pen pal exchanges.

[Assistant] What local school was it?

[User] They were. It was a middle school. I can't remember exactly which grades, but I think it was like seventh and eighth grades off the top of my head. Yeah. And so we would talk like here and there, set up like Skype dates. And like the students, I would kind of be like the interpreter and the students could ask each other questions, like the Dominican students in the youth group could ask questions of like the students in the classroom, like in the 7th grade classrooms.

[Assistant] Was this through the Paul Coverdell World Wise Schools program?

[User] Yes. Yeah, it was through that. Yeah. And so that I thought was really, really rewarding to be able to connect with students like that.

[Assistant] Did that continue after you left or were you the critical link?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were. It was a middle school. I can't remember exactly which grades, but I think it was like seventh and eighth grades off the top of my head. Yeah. And so we would talk like here and there, set up like Skype dates. And like the students, I would kind of be like the interpreter and the students could ask each other questions, like the Dominican students in the youth group could ask questions of like the students in the classroom, like in the 7th grade classrooms.

[Assistant] Was this through the Paul Coverdell World Wise Schools program?

[User] Yes. Yeah, it was through that. Yeah. And so that I thought was really, really rewarding to be able to connect with students like that.

[Assistant] Did that continue after you left or were you the critical link?

[User] It did not continue. It would, I think it would have been really cool if we could have found a way like to keep that going. But as far as I know, I don't think that they have.

[Assistant] Any other summary statements you'd like to make?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah, it was through that. Yeah. And so that I thought was really, really rewarding to be able to connect with students like that.

[Assistant] Did that continue after you left or were you the critical link?

[User] It did not continue. It would, I think it would have been really cool if we could have found a way like to keep that going. But as far as I know, I don't think that they have.

[Assistant] Any other summary statements you'd like to make?

[User] I'm actually now that I'm moving back down to the D.R. in like a month or so for a job for a year. I've been talking with like the Friends of the D.R. about helping them do some work. That's like supporting the Brigada Verde programs that are still being run as kind of like a secondary option for volunteers to do if they want. So I'm really excited. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to be doing yet or like what might work or not, but I'm really excited about that, to kind of come back to be able to still help support that work in some way. So, yeah, like looking towards the future, that's something I'm really excited about that's connected to Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I think we pretty much covered the framework that we're trying to elicit from you. So unless you have any other things, we've talked about other things that you've already noted here, so I think we've covered what you particularly wanted to bring up.