[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I got back to the States, I had been expecting that this like former boyfriend and I like, we had these plans to get together again. And then when I got back that like immediately, like anyway, but like fell apart and then I was like, oh shit. And like, and I remember like him even saying, like, well, what was your Plan B? And I was like, I don't have a Plan B. We're going to do this thing together, you know? And so like, that was like this very dramatic thing. And so I went to like yoga school for a month and I did 10 days of meditation. I was like, what do I do with my life? And it was just like Peace Corps Response. And I'm so glad I did because I think had I not like, I think it was really important for me to have a positive experience. And also just because I had felt like, you know, I felt like there was something wrong with me. You know what I mean? Like, everybody else was like doing these things and like things are working out. And I was like, what is it?

[Assistant] Other volunteers?

[User] Other volunteers that I knew, you know? But it wasn't, you know what I mean, I mean, or maybe it was, it was a combination of things, you know, but so I mean, I had better cultural competence. I had better language skills coming in and but also coming into a place where somebody was ready to receive a volunteer, I think was also something that was pretty important. But yeah, I stay in touch with that family. And yeah, they're super sweet.

[Assistant] And how long was the Response?

[User] So I mean, it was probably around six months, it wasn't super long.

[Assistant] Was the training very similar to Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I mean, it was probably around six months, it wasn't super long.

[Assistant] Was the training very similar to Peace Corps?

[User] No, we didn't get training really hardly at all. I came in with one other Response volunteer who was kind of at the other end of like this valley. Like we're in Chiriquí and like there was like Volcán Barú in the middle. And um, we wouldn't be able to walk to each other's place. I don't remember. But she and I sort of had similar projects, and she had been a Peace Corps volunteer in Panama before, and so she was doing Response coming back, I think, to her community, maybe even or a similar community. And so, yeah, so like she and I like, yeah, we were able to work well. Like we developed that sort of curriculum together and she was doing it on her side and I was doing it on my side and she had some folks that she was working with in community. And I had mine, you know, but we had good. It was good. Yeah. But I don't think we got much training. I mean, I think it was just like.

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Go for it. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So let's see, what else about Response. I guess what was your, well, what big projects or what projects were you proud of in both Peace Corps and within Response?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn't get training really hardly at all. I came in with one other Response volunteer who was kind of at the other end of like this valley. Like we're in Chiriquí and like there was like Volcán Barú in the middle. And um, we wouldn't be able to walk to each other's place. I don't remember. But she and I sort of had similar projects, and she had been a Peace Corps volunteer in Panama before, and so she was doing Response coming back, I think, to her community, maybe even or a similar community. And so, yeah, so like she and I like, yeah, we were able to work well. Like we developed that sort of curriculum together and she was doing it on her side and I was doing it on my side and she had some folks that she was working with in community. And I had mine, you know, but we had good. It was good. Yeah. But I don't think we got much training. I mean, I think it was just like.

[Assistant] Go ahead.

[User] Go for it. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So let's see, what else about Response. I guess what was your, well, what big projects or what projects were you proud of in both Peace Corps and within Response?

[User] I think that the most lasting project with my Peace Corps El Salvador was the reforestation. And I mean, I always feel that way about any trees that I've planted in my life. You know, it's just that that's like if you want to feel good about yourself, you go back there and like ten or twenty years and be like, OK. But so doing that work like reforesting. And like working with the community on like doing like community events up there and sort of like reclaiming in a way that space for the community was something that I really liked. I felt good about. And um.

[Assistant] For that one, did you have to write a grant or how did you get the community to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Go for it. Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's interesting. So let's see, what else about Response. I guess what was your, well, what big projects or what projects were you proud of in both Peace Corps and within Response?

[User] I think that the most lasting project with my Peace Corps El Salvador was the reforestation. And I mean, I always feel that way about any trees that I've planted in my life. You know, it's just that that's like if you want to feel good about yourself, you go back there and like ten or twenty years and be like, OK. But so doing that work like reforesting. And like working with the community on like doing like community events up there and sort of like reclaiming in a way that space for the community was something that I really liked. I felt good about. And um.

[Assistant] For that one, did you have to write a grant or how did you get the community to do that?

[User] So I know that the trees I remember getting the trees somewhere in Morazán and having them delivered. And I think that it was actually another nonprofit that had a tree nursery. I don't think I had to write a grant. I think that it was more just connecting this other nonprofit that had funding that had, you know I mean? It was just more about connecting these two. You know, I may have written a small grant, but I feel like now I did write a grant for a latrine project. Um. But I don't. No, I don't think I wrote a grant for the tree project. I think it was more just connection with available trees that needed to be planted.

[Assistant] What about Panama?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, in Panama, it was, you know, I really. I don't even know how to feel proud of it or not. But I mean, I was just it was really like it was so sweet working with those schools. And I felt really good about. That was like the right amount of teaching for me too, was to go for, you know what I mean, like to do a lesson, you know, and kind of like an hour or two, you know, with each group for a week and not necessarily like doing over and over again. That was just a really sweet project to work on. Um, yeah, and we did some good tree planting in Panama too. There was like a lot of flooding along the Rio Sapo. Well, no, it wasn't the Rio Sapo. But what was the river? Rio Sapo was in El Salvador. Anyway. But in the river valley, we did some good tree planting there. And we did a lot of, you know, I don't know if you did any reforestation stuff. But we like started these with, you know, like you have the bags and you do the tree, you know, like it was like, so those were sweet projects to work on too.

[Assistant] We planted trees once and uh, some guy came up to me. He's like, don't worry about the radiation. I was like, what radiation? And this is in Moldova. And they were like, we tested the land. It was perfectly safe and OK to plant trees. I'm like, alright, I'm going to listen to you and going to plant these trees. Did that for the whole afternoon.

[User] Take a long shower.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's the last thing you want to hear. Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] I'll tell you more about that later. Um, OK, so let's see. Now these up and coming questions will be for both of your services, so you can either answer both or answer one or the other. Um, let's see. Did you have any regrets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Take a long shower.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's the last thing you want to hear. Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] I'll tell you more about that later. Um, OK, so let's see. Now these up and coming questions will be for both of your services, so you can either answer both or answer one or the other. Um, let's see. Did you have any regrets?

[User] Um, I think I wish I would have been a better advocate for myself at the beginning in El Salvador when I knew things weren't working. I was just sort of like, I could have been a better advocate for myself. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, let's see. I mean, obviously, you learned a lot of lessons throughout both your services. Could you tell me some of the important lessons that you learned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's the last thing you want to hear. Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] I'll tell you more about that later. Um, OK, so let's see. Now these up and coming questions will be for both of your services, so you can either answer both or answer one or the other. Um, let's see. Did you have any regrets?

[User] Um, I think I wish I would have been a better advocate for myself at the beginning in El Salvador when I knew things weren't working. I was just sort of like, I could have been a better advocate for myself. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, let's see. I mean, obviously, you learned a lot of lessons throughout both your services. Could you tell me some of the important lessons that you learned?

[User] Um, I mean I learned a lot about the importance of community and relationship building the importance of that. I think that's something that I take with me now.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think I wish I would have been a better advocate for myself at the beginning in El Salvador when I knew things weren't working. I was just sort of like, I could have been a better advocate for myself. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, let's see. I mean, obviously, you learned a lot of lessons throughout both your services. Could you tell me some of the important lessons that you learned?

[User] Um, I mean I learned a lot about the importance of community and relationship building the importance of that. I think that's something that I take with me now.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future?

[User] I think it fit nicely with sort of things that I was doing. And so, yeah, I think I was sort of in this path and then it kind of helped me keep going.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you do now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I mean I learned a lot about the importance of community and relationship building the importance of that. I think that's something that I take with me now.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future?

[User] I think it fit nicely with sort of things that I was doing. And so, yeah, I think I was sort of in this path and then it kind of helped me keep going.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you do now?

[User] I work for the city of Austin and I do community engagement.

[Assistant] OK. Yeah, that worked out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it fit nicely with sort of things that I was doing. And so, yeah, I think I was sort of in this path and then it kind of helped me keep going.

[Assistant] Yeah. So what do you do now?

[User] I work for the city of Austin and I do community engagement.

[Assistant] OK. Yeah, that worked out.

[User] Yes, that's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how would you assess your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? Let's go with the first one to provide technical assistance where requested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I work for the city of Austin and I do community engagement.

[Assistant] OK. Yeah, that worked out.

[User] Yes, that's true. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how would you assess your service in the light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? Let's go with the first one to provide technical assistance where requested.

[User] I mean, I think that again, with my Response, I think I was able to provide more technical assistance. So that was a positive.

[Assistant] Yeah. Number two, to promote better understanding of Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I think that again, with my Response, I think I was able to provide more technical assistance. So that was a positive.

[Assistant] Yeah. Number two, to promote better understanding of Americans.

[User] I think that that was helpful with my service in El Salvador. And so, so many people in El Salvador know someone or have a family member in the States and they were sending money, you know. And there's this like very like sort of skewed world view about.

[Assistant] Americans?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you teach them or what did they learn from you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that that was helpful with my service in El Salvador. And so, so many people in El Salvador know someone or have a family member in the States and they were sending money, you know. And there's this like very like sort of skewed world view about.

[Assistant] Americans?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you teach them or what did they learn from you?

[User] Oh, you know, now that I said that, I'm like, I have no idea what they learned from me, but I mean, maybe just learning a little bit. I mean, and also, I think too maybe for me, but also, like I said, my parents came to visit and I think that was impactful on my community. Like even more like, I don't know if they thought that I didn't have parents or, you know, it was so interesting.

[Assistant] Saw your family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you teach them or what did they learn from you?

[User] Oh, you know, now that I said that, I'm like, I have no idea what they learned from me, but I mean, maybe just learning a little bit. I mean, and also, I think too maybe for me, but also, like I said, my parents came to visit and I think that was impactful on my community. Like even more like, I don't know if they thought that I didn't have parents or, you know, it was so interesting.

[Assistant] Saw your family.

[User] I think seeing my family and like, there was just sort of a. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did your family do when they were visiting you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you know, now that I said that, I'm like, I have no idea what they learned from me, but I mean, maybe just learning a little bit. I mean, and also, I think too maybe for me, but also, like I said, my parents came to visit and I think that was impactful on my community. Like even more like, I don't know if they thought that I didn't have parents or, you know, it was so interesting.

[Assistant] Saw your family.

[User] I think seeing my family and like, there was just sort of a. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did your family do when they were visiting you?

[User] We stayed, um. We stayed with my initial host family from training, which was really sweet. They were so sweet. And then they came and they stayed in my community for a couple of nights. That's when I was living with Rosa. And, you know, I mean, it was like a lot of just like walking around and.

[Assistant] Seeing the things, your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think seeing my family and like, there was just sort of a. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did your family do when they were visiting you?

[User] We stayed, um. We stayed with my initial host family from training, which was really sweet. They were so sweet. And then they came and they stayed in my community for a couple of nights. That's when I was living with Rosa. And, you know, I mean, it was like a lot of just like walking around and.

[Assistant] Seeing the things, your life.

[User] Uh huh. So that was really nice that they were willing to do that. And then we went to like a hotel that was kind of in the area. Um, yeah, I mean, that was kind of it. But so they did a couple of nights of like, you know, I mean, then it was rustic. I mean, it was all dirt walls and dirt floors. And, you know, not like, it's pretty different.

[Assistant] What kind of food do they eat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We stayed, um. We stayed with my initial host family from training, which was really sweet. They were so sweet. And then they came and they stayed in my community for a couple of nights. That's when I was living with Rosa. And, you know, I mean, it was like a lot of just like walking around and.

[Assistant] Seeing the things, your life.

[User] Uh huh. So that was really nice that they were willing to do that. And then we went to like a hotel that was kind of in the area. Um, yeah, I mean, that was kind of it. But so they did a couple of nights of like, you know, I mean, then it was rustic. I mean, it was all dirt walls and dirt floors. And, you know, not like, it's pretty different.

[Assistant] What kind of food do they eat?

[User] Chicken and beans and rice. I mean, and tortilla. That was pretty much, this was the.

[Assistant] Common thing that you ate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh. So that was really nice that they were willing to do that. And then we went to like a hotel that was kind of in the area. Um, yeah, I mean, that was kind of it. But so they did a couple of nights of like, you know, I mean, then it was rustic. I mean, it was all dirt walls and dirt floors. And, you know, not like, it's pretty different.

[Assistant] What kind of food do they eat?

[User] Chicken and beans and rice. I mean, and tortilla. That was pretty much, this was the.

[Assistant] Common thing that you ate.

[User] Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when I was on my own, that was another thing. I was able to cook more for myself, which was nice. I mean, I still eat a lot of beans and rice, but um, but yeah, it was great. I mean, to like, have a little diversity in my diet.

[Assistant] Did you go back to being a vegetarian when you came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chicken and beans and rice. I mean, and tortilla. That was pretty much, this was the.

[Assistant] Common thing that you ate.

[User] Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when I was on my own, that was another thing. I was able to cook more for myself, which was nice. I mean, I still eat a lot of beans and rice, but um, but yeah, it was great. I mean, to like, have a little diversity in my diet.

[Assistant] Did you go back to being a vegetarian when you came back?

[User] No. Uh uh. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Peace Corps changed that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when I was on my own, that was another thing. I was able to cook more for myself, which was nice. I mean, I still eat a lot of beans and rice, but um, but yeah, it was great. I mean, to like, have a little diversity in my diet.

[Assistant] Did you go back to being a vegetarian when you came back?

[User] No. Uh uh. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Peace Corps changed that.

[User] I know, Peace Corps changed that for sure.

[Assistant] OK. So to promote better understanding of other people by Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Uh uh. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Peace Corps changed that.

[User] I know, Peace Corps changed that for sure.

[Assistant] OK. So to promote better understanding of other people by Americans.

[User] And so I've done a few. Like when I first came back, I did several kind of third goal events, like going and talking to Spanish classes or, you know, in different high schools and middle schools. And then in my last job with the city, I would do these like elementary career days and go and talk about the Peace Corps as a career. But I don't know. Yeah, and not as much. Um, I think when I was there, I mean, the people that I know, who know me, I think were influenced, but as far as like a general broader. I don't know that as much.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you when you got back. Well, when you got back the first time and the second time, how was America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I've done a few. Like when I first came back, I did several kind of third goal events, like going and talking to Spanish classes or, you know, in different high schools and middle schools. And then in my last job with the city, I would do these like elementary career days and go and talk about the Peace Corps as a career. But I don't know. Yeah, and not as much. Um, I think when I was there, I mean, the people that I know, who know me, I think were influenced, but as far as like a general broader. I don't know that as much.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you when you got back. Well, when you got back the first time and the second time, how was America?

[User] So coming back from Panama. Like so when I was, again, I was like in like emotional turmoil or whatever for like the couple of months that I was like, I was probably in the States for like two months or something before I was just like, OK, I'm done.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And coming back. When I got back here to Austin was like, I definitely had some pretty intense reverse culture shock.

[Assistant] This is Panama or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So coming back from Panama. Like so when I was, again, I was like in like emotional turmoil or whatever for like the couple of months that I was like, I was probably in the States for like two months or something before I was just like, OK, I'm done.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And coming back. When I got back here to Austin was like, I definitely had some pretty intense reverse culture shock.

[Assistant] This is Panama or?

[User] Panama, yeah, like when I was like done done. So it was really weird. It was hard.

[Assistant] What kind of things did you go through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Panama, yeah, like when I was like done done. So it was really weird. It was hard.

[Assistant] What kind of things did you go through?

[User] Like the thing with like going in and just being like, disgusted, like just disgusted by the money. Like, just like what you know, it just felt so obscene. And like I remember, I mean, I feel like this is a common thing too. But I remember like going into Whole Foods and I was like going to make dinner for a friend. I needed three ingredients and I was just like just paralyzed almost. And I like grabbed an employee and I was like, these are the three items on my list, like I need you to take me to these. And he kind of like laughed at me a little bit and I was like, no.

[Assistant] Being serious.

[User] Yeah, like, I really need you to just do this for me. Yeah. And then one day, you know, like months in like I, you know, like I had found a job, you know, and I was like driving home from work like on MoPac. And I was just like realizing like, oh, like that just feels normal now. And I was like, OK, like I was recognizing the shift.

[Assistant] How long did that take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like the thing with like going in and just being like, disgusted, like just disgusted by the money. Like, just like what you know, it just felt so obscene. And like I remember, I mean, I feel like this is a common thing too. But I remember like going into Whole Foods and I was like going to make dinner for a friend. I needed three ingredients and I was just like just paralyzed almost. And I like grabbed an employee and I was like, these are the three items on my list, like I need you to take me to these. And he kind of like laughed at me a little bit and I was like, no.

[Assistant] Being serious.

[User] Yeah, like, I really need you to just do this for me. Yeah. And then one day, you know, like months in like I, you know, like I had found a job, you know, and I was like driving home from work like on MoPac. And I was just like realizing like, oh, like that just feels normal now. And I was like, OK, like I was recognizing the shift.

[Assistant] How long did that take?

[User] I mean, that was probably in, I don't know, maybe January or February or something. Five or six months, for sure. But it was also like kind of awesome. It was like bad. But it was also kind of awesome of just being like all of a sudden, all rules are off the table and it was just like, you know, I didn't know what anything was. Like I remember being with my mom and being like, can I leave my purse? Like, I don't know what I can do and what I can't do. Like nothing. And I was like dating and like, I didn't know any the dating rules, you know what I mean? And it was just like very much just like everything just felt like.

[Assistant] You were too well-integrated in Peace Corps. Now you came back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, like, I really need you to just do this for me. Yeah. And then one day, you know, like months in like I, you know, like I had found a job, you know, and I was like driving home from work like on MoPac. And I was just like realizing like, oh, like that just feels normal now. And I was like, OK, like I was recognizing the shift.

[Assistant] How long did that take?

[User] I mean, that was probably in, I don't know, maybe January or February or something. Five or six months, for sure. But it was also like kind of awesome. It was like bad. But it was also kind of awesome of just being like all of a sudden, all rules are off the table and it was just like, you know, I didn't know what anything was. Like I remember being with my mom and being like, can I leave my purse? Like, I don't know what I can do and what I can't do. Like nothing. And I was like dating and like, I didn't know any the dating rules, you know what I mean? And it was just like very much just like everything just felt like.

[Assistant] You were too well-integrated in Peace Corps. Now you came back.

[User] No, it was, though. I mean, like for real, it was just like everything just felt. I mean, I had no like, you know, like, I didn't have good like social context clues for lots of things. And so I mean, it was like kind of exciting and, you know, take like a baby. It's like good and bad.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, last question. If you had any advice for current or future volunteers, what would you tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a pleasure, sir. It’s a pleasure.

[Assistant] Let’s begin . . . not at the beginning, because there was a beginning before this, but does the date 9 April 1959 mean anything to you?

[User] Well, of course, that was one of the happiest days of my life. That was the day on which we all congregated officially as the U.S. first astronaut group. We had been through a selection process obviously previous to that time. But that was the day we first showed up officially as the first astronauts in the United States, back at Langley Field, Virginia.

[Assistant] At Langley? Why Langley, I wonder.

[User] Well, of course NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] had become NASA in a great, big hurried turnaround, as you recall. The program of astronaut selection and training basically was run by the people who worked from Langley. Originally, of course we all reported to Washington. That was where the initiation, the introduction, and the pre-selection, and all that sort of routine went on. Then, as you know, we had physicals elsewhere in the country. But once the selection was made we reported to those people at Langley Field, which was kind of neat for me because I was already stationed in Norfolk in a job I didn’t like in the first place. I was finally taken out of airplanes and put behind a desk for the first time in a bunch of years. . . So it was a really easy trip for us. We . . . didn’t even have to move.

[Assistant] Your journey to get there took you through test pilot school, took you through combat experience, took you through a bit of everything, didn’t it? Why was it that NASA decided to pick test pilots, of all things, to fly the first space mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughing] I wondered first of all where these six incompetent guys came from. Seriously, it was not a surprise because several of them had been involved in the preliminary selection process, so I was generally familiar with their backgrounds. Glenn, of course, I had known before; Schirra I had known before because of our Navy connections. So I knew there was a lot of talent there, and I knew that it was going to be a tough fight to win the prize.

[Assistant] It was competitive at that time between the seven of you, wasn’t it?

[User] Well it was an interesting situation because, as I say, I was friendly with several of them. And on the other hand, realizing that I was now competing with these guys, so there was always a sense of caution I suppose—particularly talking about technical things. Now in the bar everything changed, but in talking about technical things there was always a sense of maybe a little bit of reservation, not being totally frank with each other, because there was this very strong sense of competition . . .

[Assistant] You were talking about your teammates, and I’d like to go back over that. There was competition among the seven of you, wasn’t there?

[User] Well, you know, it was an interesting situation getting together with the seven originals for the first time. And, of course, having known some of them before, with the Navy connections, but yet all of a sudden realizing that here was competition. There were seven guys competing for the first job, whatever that turned out to be. Seven guys going for that one job. So on the one hand there was a sense of friendliness and maybe some support, but on the other hand, “Hey, I hope the rest of you guys are happy because I’m going to make the first flight.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] You were about to move into a whole new world, or a new non-world, up there in weightless space of which nothing was known. Didn’t that frighten you just a little bit? What were your thoughts about moving into a new environment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh very important; absolutely, absolutely.

[Assistant] How important was it? Did you say anything publicly, or did you just nurse your wounds and get ready to fly again?

[User] As you know, we had a lot of differences of opinion about things in the program. Not only the design but in some of the scheduling, but most of that was kept pretty quiet. Most of it was resolved, and very little of that came out in public. It was always . . . sort of a joint decision.

[Assistant] Then, as time went on you started lobbying for another flight in Mercury, but then Mercury was cut a little short because there was the pressure of something else, wasn’t there? Can you discuss those pressures?

[User] You are not surprised that I wanted to fly again, are you, Mr. Neal?

[Assistant] Not at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was Poulos, I think. Victor Poulos. The doctor knew and the nurse knew, but nobody else knew . . . So, Victor Poulos checks in and they run the operation . . . it’s not that traumatic, obviously, because after about a day I was out of there. Of course it was obvious when you look at the big ball of stuff over my ear when I get back home. But NASA started looking at me. And several months, several months, several months went by, and finally said, “Yes, all the tests show that you no longer are affected by this Ménière’s disease.” So there I was, having made the right decision.

[Assistant] I think we’d better backtrack a little here, because obviously this is going to bring you into direct discussion about a fellow named Deke [Donald K.] Slayton, and we haven’t established the fact that Deke, like you, was knocked out of flying. So let’s go back over a little of that, particularly because that happened back in the Mercury days when Deke was getting ready to fly, and I wonder, when you first heard [about Deke]?

[User] Deke had already been assigned to follow John. . .

[Assistant] And suddenly he got bumped from his Mercury flight. That was a heart condition, wasn’t it?

[User] Yeah, there was a lot of controversy about that because it was a heart murmur or a palpitation, some irregularity, but one which was not obvious. It was not a continuous kind of thing. It was not as if he was getting ready for cardiac arrest or anything like that. It was just occasionally he’d have a little twitch down there. . .

[Assistant] . . . It was a real blow. I wonder what your reaction was to it at the time, and if you can give us a little background on it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think yeah sort of, Chief of the Astronaut Office.

[Assistant] That was a job eventually you wound up with, by title.

[User] Yeah, things were changed around, of course.

[Assistant] Once you went into Gemini all of a sudden there were two of the seven who had been grounded, Deke and Al. What a team. How did it come about that you wound up becoming Chief of the Astronaut Office while Deke, by this time, had assumed quite some power as Head of Astronaut Affairs?

[User] Well, as I’d indicated earlier, I decided to fight this Ménière’s to stay with NASA. And during the time period when I was grounded, I could become very, very useful in the astronaut training business. I suppose that we really had grown if you’d consider the number of chaps that were involved in the simulators, for example, in the suiting procedures, taking care of the suits and so on, direct supporting the facilities for the astronauts; there were really quite a number of people involved. So they decided to make it a separate division. Deke was the head of that division, and I was given the job specifically of the care and feeding of these astronauts, in charge of their training, helping Deke with crew assignments, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Was it Deke primarily that got you the job, or was it just the fact that you had all the qualifications? How did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think it was just a matter of saying, “What do we need?” When I became grounded and informed NASA I was going to stay there, then we had two guys that really . . . either one of us could have done the job. One little difference I think, perhaps that I knew that somehow something was going to happen soon with me. I was either going to get the ear fixed or I was gone. With Deke, I think he was more or less resigned at that stage to the heart murmur business, and the medics kept giving him a bad time about that. So I think it was really that Deke probably was more of a long-term commitment than in my particular case, so I think that’s really why it was established. You know we just talked it over with [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.] and Gilruth and they sort of agreed that I was a good selection.

[Assistant] You two had quite a reputation for running a very tight ship.

[User] Well, of course Deke and I were both mad because we were grounded. We’d both been training as astronauts. We knew where every skeleton was in the whole process, and we just wouldn’t let those guys get away with anything. We knew what they had to do, we knew how they had to do it, and if they weren’t doing it then we would bring them in and tell them about it. Maybe I was a little more forceful than I would have been normally, because of being grounded. I believe they called me The Icy Commander or some “friendly” term like that. . .

[Assistant] Steely-eyed?

[User] We knew where all the skeletons were.

[Assistant] Knowing that, in a very peculiar way from a NASA point of view, perhaps it was for the betterment of the space program that you and Deke were both doing what you were doing at the time you were doing it. Did you ever think of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course Deke and I were both mad because we were grounded. We’d both been training as astronauts. We knew where every skeleton was in the whole process, and we just wouldn’t let those guys get away with anything. We knew what they had to do, we knew how they had to do it, and if they weren’t doing it then we would bring them in and tell them about it. Maybe I was a little more forceful than I would have been normally, because of being grounded. I believe they called me The Icy Commander or some “friendly” term like that. . .

[Assistant] Steely-eyed?

[User] We knew where all the skeletons were.

[Assistant] Knowing that, in a very peculiar way from a NASA point of view, perhaps it was for the betterment of the space program that you and Deke were both doing what you were doing at the time you were doing it. Did you ever think of that?

[User] I think certainly there was a need for coordination, there was a need for representation at the executive level. Other chaps could have done the job perhaps equally as well or perhaps even better. But it seemed like we turned out some pretty good crews.

[Assistant] I don’t think anybody could fault your selection of crews, Alan. All the way through the Gemini Program and finally on into Apollo. And it was during the time of Apollo by which time you finally located through Stafford’s ministrations, as you described earlier, a way to treat the Ménière’s syndrome in Los Angeles. Suddenly the skies opened again for Alan Shepard. Or did they? You had to get back into the program, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we were delighted, we were delighted! But there was also a little bit of a gulp in there, because he put a time cap on the deal. I don’t think that any of us thought that we would be able to make it . . . (that was 1961) within 8½ years. . . [We were] delighted but . . . maybe the President is a little enthusiastic.

[Assistant] We’ve finally got up to that point where we’re into Apollo, and what was your choice—your and Deke’s—what was your best bet as to which would be the first flight to make a manned landing on the Moon?

[User] Well, I suppose that we felt the schedule as it was laid out, after we rescheduled the Apollo 8 mission, I think that we felt that the missions 9 and 10 adequately demonstrated the lunar module’s capabilities, that we really deep down inside felt that we could make it. We had a very good possibility of making it on the first try.

[Assistant] And of course you did.

[User] Of course we did.

[Assistant] And then along came 14. . . Because now you had picked your team and you had sweated out Apollo 13, and you were ready to fly. It must have been a big moment when you were ready, waiting for take-off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would have at least been able to take a visual look. I would have pitched over and taken a visual look before and then made a decision.

[Assistant] Fair enough. Well, we finally have you on the Moon. Mission accomplished. Or was it? Tell me about what you and Ed did on the Moon as you remember it. What were the highlights?

[User] … Of course the first feeling was one of a tremendous sense of accomplishment, I guess if you will. A tremendous sense of realizing that, “Hey, not too long ago I was grounded. Now I’m on the Moon.” There was that sense of self-satisfaction immediately. But then that went away, because we had a lot of work to do. But I’ll never forget that moment.\n\n Another moment which I will never forget is after Ed had followed me down and we had set out some of our equipment, taken the emergency samples, we had a few moments to look around, to look up in the black sky—a totally black sky, even though the Sun is shining on the surface it’s not reflected, there’s no diffusion, no reflection—a totally black sky and seeing another planet: planet Earth. Now planet Earth is only four times as large as the Moon, so you can really still put your thumb and your forefinger around it at that distance. So it makes it look beautiful; it makes it look lonely; it makes it look fragile. You think to yourself, just imagine that millions of people are living on that planet and don’t realize how fragile it is. I think this is a feeling everyone has had and expressed it in one fashion or another. That was an overwhelming feeling in seeing the beauty of the planet on the one hand but the fragility of it on the other.

[Assistant] Being Alan Shepard, of course, shortly after that golden moment you decided to play a little golf.

[User] I didn’t decide to play a little golf. That is a long story. I will not tell the whole story.

[Assistant] Tell us what you think might be all right, because it is a very famous story and I’m sure a lot of people would like to hear your version of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was designed to be a fun thing. Fortunately, it is still a fun thing. The makeshift club is with the U.S. Golf Association in their museum. There has been absolutely no commercialism. One company tried to say it was their golf ball, and we cut them off very quickly. So, it’s been just a totally fun thing.

[Assistant] And still is. Now some general questions, if we may. Well, I guess we’d better get you back from the Moon. We can’t just leave you up there. You played golf; now you closed the hatch and you came back. After that, it wasn’t too long thereafter that you finally decided you’d completed your run with NASA. You moved on to other fields.

[User] Well, as you recall, of course, the only scheduled missions were the Skylab missions. The crews were already assigned to the joint mission with the Soviets…

[Assistant] Including your friend Deke Slayton. Deke finally got his shot at it, didn’t he?

[User] Boy, we were so pleased. We were so pleased, bless his heart. Can you imagine having to learn to speak Russian to go into space? I mean, that is above and beyond the call of duty. But he did it. I’m not sure the Russians understood him, but he did it. We were really so pleased and so happy for him.

[Assistant] I’m remembering you were with me on television, because you were doing a job as a consultant, on-the-air talent when the landing was accomplished, and we were thinking, “My, Deke and Brand and Stafford, they all look great!” Little did we know that they had been dosed with nitric acid, was it? Do you remember after the fact that they had inhaled something or the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as you recall, of course, the only scheduled missions were the Skylab missions. The crews were already assigned to the joint mission with the Soviets…

[Assistant] Including your friend Deke Slayton. Deke finally got his shot at it, didn’t he?

[User] Boy, we were so pleased. We were so pleased, bless his heart. Can you imagine having to learn to speak Russian to go into space? I mean, that is above and beyond the call of duty. But he did it. I’m not sure the Russians understood him, but he did it. We were really so pleased and so happy for him.

[Assistant] I’m remembering you were with me on television, because you were doing a job as a consultant, on-the-air talent when the landing was accomplished, and we were thinking, “My, Deke and Brand and Stafford, they all look great!” Little did we know that they had been dosed with nitric acid, was it? Do you remember after the fact that they had inhaled something or the other?

[User] Some kind of vapors.

[Assistant] Some vapors from the ejection system, and they were in kind of bad shape for a short while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, we were so pleased. We were so pleased, bless his heart. Can you imagine having to learn to speak Russian to go into space? I mean, that is above and beyond the call of duty. But he did it. I’m not sure the Russians understood him, but he did it. We were really so pleased and so happy for him.

[Assistant] I’m remembering you were with me on television, because you were doing a job as a consultant, on-the-air talent when the landing was accomplished, and we were thinking, “My, Deke and Brand and Stafford, they all look great!” Little did we know that they had been dosed with nitric acid, was it? Do you remember after the fact that they had inhaled something or the other?

[User] Some kind of vapors.

[Assistant] Some vapors from the ejection system, and they were in kind of bad shape for a short while.

[User] I’ve forgotten whether it was a leak or what happened. We can look it up.

[Assistant] We’ll forget it for now because it’s unimportant. That’s their flight; their stuff. General thoughts then. John Glenn is about to fly again. You and he are pretty close to the same age. I wonder what your thoughts are about John flying.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some kind of vapors.

[Assistant] Some vapors from the ejection system, and they were in kind of bad shape for a short while.

[User] I’ve forgotten whether it was a leak or what happened. We can look it up.

[Assistant] We’ll forget it for now because it’s unimportant. That’s their flight; their stuff. General thoughts then. John Glenn is about to fly again. You and he are pretty close to the same age. I wonder what your thoughts are about John flying.

[User] John is a couple of years older than I am; I believe he’s seventy-seven. But, I’ve been saying for years that the taxpayers didn’t get their money’s worth out of Glenn because he made one flight and immediately went into the Congress. And as a taxpayer, I objected to that. I’ve been telling John this for years and years. I called him up the other day after the announcement and I said, “John, I’m glad that you’re going to give me one more flight for my tax dollars!” [Laughter] I think it’s good, quite frankly.\n\n Obviously there are a lot of things about how weightlessness treats individuals, and the person’s reaction to weightlessness is both a function of the amount of exercise or lack thereof, their general physical conditioning, and the kind of things that one really needs to know if you’re going to be in a long-term mission. The more you find out, the better shape you’ll be in. So he’s a good data-point. He thinks he’s in pretty good shape, and he probably is. But his bones are still more brittle, obviously, and I’m sure that there will be some lessons learned even during that short period of time by looking at his general physical condition, before and after. I think it’s a good thing. I think we’ll learn something from it.

[Assistant] Do you think you’d like to fly again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve forgotten whether it was a leak or what happened. We can look it up.

[Assistant] We’ll forget it for now because it’s unimportant. That’s their flight; their stuff. General thoughts then. John Glenn is about to fly again. You and he are pretty close to the same age. I wonder what your thoughts are about John flying.

[User] John is a couple of years older than I am; I believe he’s seventy-seven. But, I’ve been saying for years that the taxpayers didn’t get their money’s worth out of Glenn because he made one flight and immediately went into the Congress. And as a taxpayer, I objected to that. I’ve been telling John this for years and years. I called him up the other day after the announcement and I said, “John, I’m glad that you’re going to give me one more flight for my tax dollars!” [Laughter] I think it’s good, quite frankly.\n\n Obviously there are a lot of things about how weightlessness treats individuals, and the person’s reaction to weightlessness is both a function of the amount of exercise or lack thereof, their general physical conditioning, and the kind of things that one really needs to know if you’re going to be in a long-term mission. The more you find out, the better shape you’ll be in. So he’s a good data-point. He thinks he’s in pretty good shape, and he probably is. But his bones are still more brittle, obviously, and I’m sure that there will be some lessons learned even during that short period of time by looking at his general physical condition, before and after. I think it’s a good thing. I think we’ll learn something from it.

[Assistant] Do you think you’d like to fly again?

[User] Of course I would! Of course I would! Unfortunately I’m not in top health at the moment.

[Assistant] That’s just a subject of time. You’ve talked some here about NASA managers, but I’d kind of like to run down a little list with you, get some evaluation from you about some of these people we’ve been talking about. For example, Jim Webb.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I liked Bob; I really did. Because Bob has been in the aviation business forever. And being right there at Langley, seeing him not every day but seeing him frequently, and talking to people who’d been with him in the old NACA days and what he had done, I mean just a remarkable, remarkable gentleman. I think that he was really sort of a hands-on kind of guy, too. I obviously appreciate his decision to let me make the first flight, but he never told me why he made that decision the way he did. I asked him several times over the years, and he always said, “Well, you were just the right man at the right time.” But I’m sure that he was very personally involved in that selection process. There were some suggestions from some of the other folks in the program that maybe he had made a mistake in the decision, that there might have been someone else who qualified better, but he did not change his mind. So he’s one of my heroes.

[Assistant] How about Chris Kraft?

[User] I like Chris. I like Chris. You know, I guess we were really closer in the early days when he was a flight director and we were all in that little building down there at the Cape. I think I felt perhaps closer to him then. But you can see the decision-making process that he went through. And you knew that he was not making any sloppy decisions; his decisions were very well thought through.

[Assistant] George [M.] Low.

[User] I really didn’t know George that well. I never really worked directly with him … at that particular stage in the game. George came along later. Actually Deke worked with him more than I did.

[Assistant] How about Wernher von Braun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I like Chris. I like Chris. You know, I guess we were really closer in the early days when he was a flight director and we were all in that little building down there at the Cape. I think I felt perhaps closer to him then. But you can see the decision-making process that he went through. And you knew that he was not making any sloppy decisions; his decisions were very well thought through.

[Assistant] George [M.] Low.

[User] I really didn’t know George that well. I never really worked directly with him … at that particular stage in the game. George came along later. Actually Deke worked with him more than I did.

[Assistant] How about Wernher von Braun?

[User] Well, Wernher was an interesting guy. We never worked together too much. But I do remember him, as I’m sure the rest of the original seven, we had dinner at his house one night, him and Eberhard [F. M.] Rees, and we drove out to a little hillside where they’d built their own observatory. We took a look at the Moon through a telescope. Here you are with a great rocket scientist and he’s showing you what the Moon looks like through a telescope.

[Assistant] It seems strange but, to the public at large, Bob Gilruth is kind of lost in limbo and Wernher von Braun stands in mind as one of the prime movers. I wonder what your reaction would be to that evaluation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really didn’t know George that well. I never really worked directly with him … at that particular stage in the game. George came along later. Actually Deke worked with him more than I did.

[Assistant] How about Wernher von Braun?

[User] Well, Wernher was an interesting guy. We never worked together too much. But I do remember him, as I’m sure the rest of the original seven, we had dinner at his house one night, him and Eberhard [F. M.] Rees, and we drove out to a little hillside where they’d built their own observatory. We took a look at the Moon through a telescope. Here you are with a great rocket scientist and he’s showing you what the Moon looks like through a telescope.

[Assistant] It seems strange but, to the public at large, Bob Gilruth is kind of lost in limbo and Wernher von Braun stands in mind as one of the prime movers. I wonder what your reaction would be to that evaluation?

[User] I think that’s true. I think that Gilruth’s entire life had been and was dedicated to aviation and space. And he basically was an engineer. I think that perhaps von Braun obviously was an engineer but I think von Braun had been involved in political aspects over in Germany; where maybe it was a matter of survival. And I think he dealt with the public more easily than Gilruth did. It came more naturally to him. As a result I think that in the final analysis, the general public knew more about von Braun than they did about Gilruth. But those of us on the inside, particularly the manned space aspect of it, owe a lot more to Gilruth than we do to Wernher.

[Assistant] Don’t you think probably that is because Wernher was always a salesman of ideas, that he was really out selling the concept of the lunar mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Wernher was an interesting guy. We never worked together too much. But I do remember him, as I’m sure the rest of the original seven, we had dinner at his house one night, him and Eberhard [F. M.] Rees, and we drove out to a little hillside where they’d built their own observatory. We took a look at the Moon through a telescope. Here you are with a great rocket scientist and he’s showing you what the Moon looks like through a telescope.

[Assistant] It seems strange but, to the public at large, Bob Gilruth is kind of lost in limbo and Wernher von Braun stands in mind as one of the prime movers. I wonder what your reaction would be to that evaluation?

[User] I think that’s true. I think that Gilruth’s entire life had been and was dedicated to aviation and space. And he basically was an engineer. I think that perhaps von Braun obviously was an engineer but I think von Braun had been involved in political aspects over in Germany; where maybe it was a matter of survival. And I think he dealt with the public more easily than Gilruth did. It came more naturally to him. As a result I think that in the final analysis, the general public knew more about von Braun than they did about Gilruth. But those of us on the inside, particularly the manned space aspect of it, owe a lot more to Gilruth than we do to Wernher.

[Assistant] Don’t you think probably that is because Wernher was always a salesman of ideas, that he was really out selling the concept of the lunar mission?

[User] Well, I think so. He almost felt that he had to. Maybe he felt the same way we did. Yes, it was a great idea, but he might have been concerned a little bit with the pressure of the schedule. That may have been the reason; I don’t know.

[Assistant] Here’s a question that comes right out of the gang at Houston: What are some of the worst things that happened to you after your selection as an astronaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that’s true. I think that Gilruth’s entire life had been and was dedicated to aviation and space. And he basically was an engineer. I think that perhaps von Braun obviously was an engineer but I think von Braun had been involved in political aspects over in Germany; where maybe it was a matter of survival. And I think he dealt with the public more easily than Gilruth did. It came more naturally to him. As a result I think that in the final analysis, the general public knew more about von Braun than they did about Gilruth. But those of us on the inside, particularly the manned space aspect of it, owe a lot more to Gilruth than we do to Wernher.

[Assistant] Don’t you think probably that is because Wernher was always a salesman of ideas, that he was really out selling the concept of the lunar mission?

[User] Well, I think so. He almost felt that he had to. Maybe he felt the same way we did. Yes, it was a great idea, but he might have been concerned a little bit with the pressure of the schedule. That may have been the reason; I don’t know.

[Assistant] Here’s a question that comes right out of the gang at Houston: What are some of the worst things that happened to you after your selection as an astronaut?

[User] …This was not a fault of the system, but obviously being grounded was the worst thing that has ever happened to me.

[Assistant] When you were running the Astronaut Office, what was the most difficult thing that you ran into there? Do you remember anything as being particularly difficult during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think so. He almost felt that he had to. Maybe he felt the same way we did. Yes, it was a great idea, but he might have been concerned a little bit with the pressure of the schedule. That may have been the reason; I don’t know.

[Assistant] Here’s a question that comes right out of the gang at Houston: What are some of the worst things that happened to you after your selection as an astronaut?

[User] …This was not a fault of the system, but obviously being grounded was the worst thing that has ever happened to me.

[Assistant] When you were running the Astronaut Office, what was the most difficult thing that you ran into there? Do you remember anything as being particularly difficult during that time?

[User] … Let me say that while I was head of the Astronaut Office I was responsible for the care and feeding of very enthusiastic, very intelligent, very dedicated, and a motivated bunch of guys. And there were jealousies in the ranks, people being jealous of so-and-so particularly being chosen for a flight or for a backup position or a support crew position. There were instances where really harsh discussions were taken. So to straight things out I’d say, “Look, Deke and I are running this program and this is the way it’s going to be run. We’re sorry, but eventually you will be treated fairly.” There were some that still feel they weren’t, but a small percentage of them hopefully.

[Assistant] Looking back on it, what do you think now about the\n\n Life\n\n magazine contract? Good, bad, or indifferent? You don’t have to answer that one if you don’t choose to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know that’s a very difficult question for me to answer because I’m not involved in the process anymore. I think one has to look at the flights which are being made, at the performance of the crews, the number of delays because of mechanical problems, and that sort of thing. And using these criteria, I would say they’re running a good ship; I would say they’re running a successful program. There have been obviously no errors which have resulted in loss of life. They have used the crew to correct many problems. The remarkable repair of the Hubble telescope . . . of course that was some years ago. But these are the kind of things which indicate to me that they’re doing a pretty good job.

[Assistant] Proving what you’re saying, I’m thinking now I can’t remember a single case of disaster occasioned by pilot error, which speaks pretty well for the group, doesn’t it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Of course today they’re now into things other than pilots. They’re into the broad gamut of flight crews, women, scientists, payload specialists.

[User] But when you consider the fact that you’re still doing basic research into the operation of the Shuttle as a shell—as a vehicle—that’s probably not true anymore. You’ve probably reached the operational stage.

[Assistant] Or pretty close to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Of course today they’re now into things other than pilots. They’re into the broad gamut of flight crews, women, scientists, payload specialists.

[User] But when you consider the fact that you’re still doing basic research into the operation of the Shuttle as a shell—as a vehicle—that’s probably not true anymore. You’ve probably reached the operational stage.

[Assistant] Or pretty close to it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Recently, I guess it was the\n\n Columbia\n\n that flew its 26th mission for one spacecraft: a remarkable circumstance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But when you consider the fact that you’re still doing basic research into the operation of the Shuttle as a shell—as a vehicle—that’s probably not true anymore. You’ve probably reached the operational stage.

[Assistant] Or pretty close to it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Recently, I guess it was the\n\n Columbia\n\n that flew its 26th mission for one spacecraft: a remarkable circumstance.

[User] … I guess you could say they’re operational, but still it’s a remarkable record.

[Assistant] Alan, I’ve asked an awful lot of questions both from my own point of view and those in Houston. It seems to me it’s high time we let you say anything that you’d like, if there’s something that we haven’t asked that should have been asked. If so, fire for effect.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You didn’t have to apologize.

[Assistant] I’m not apologizing. I’m making sure that somebody watching this knows very well that that was pure Alan Shepard and not Roy Neal instigating a thought or two, or not NASA instigating a thought or two.

[User] They couldn’t accuse you of that, Roy.

[Assistant] But this is a NASA tape that we’re making. And I just want to make darn sure that the people watching it that that came right out of the blue and was pure you. That’s all.

[User] Well, it’s the truth.

[Assistant] Well Alan, thank you very much. It’s been a real pleasure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They couldn’t accuse you of that, Roy.

[Assistant] But this is a NASA tape that we’re making. And I just want to make darn sure that the people watching it that that came right out of the blue and was pure you. That’s all.

[User] Well, it’s the truth.

[Assistant] Well Alan, thank you very much. It’s been a real pleasure.

[User] You think you got enough?

[Assistant] Well, if we don’t we’ll let the powers that be tell us that we ought to come back and do it again sometime.