[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A station wagon, what else?

[Assistant] I was thinking you’ve got to have big car for as many kids as you had. You didn’t lease the Corvette.

[User] No, I didn’t. He leased a Ford Cobra, and I got to drive that once in a while. He had a neat little ’53 MG TD that he’d restored, and I liked to drive that too. That was fun. It didn’t hold any kids, but that was fun.

[Assistant] That’s probably why you enjoyed it so much.

[User] Could be.

[Assistant] What did you do with the kids when you would go to some of these galas? Was Jennifer old enough to watch the pack?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t. He leased a Ford Cobra, and I got to drive that once in a while. He had a neat little ’53 MG TD that he’d restored, and I liked to drive that too. That was fun. It didn’t hold any kids, but that was fun.

[Assistant] That’s probably why you enjoyed it so much.

[User] Could be.

[Assistant] What did you do with the kids when you would go to some of these galas? Was Jennifer old enough to watch the pack?

[User] Not at first, no, she wasn’t at first. Some of the secretaries from the Astronaut Office would volunteer to babysit for us, and we got by with that quite a lot. There weren’t really any neighbor kids that were that age. They were all our kids’ age; they were all young. Jennifer didn’t start babysitting until she was about 14, I think, and then she was a good babysitter.

[Assistant] I bet she was quite popular.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Could be.

[Assistant] What did you do with the kids when you would go to some of these galas? Was Jennifer old enough to watch the pack?

[User] Not at first, no, she wasn’t at first. Some of the secretaries from the Astronaut Office would volunteer to babysit for us, and we got by with that quite a lot. There weren’t really any neighbor kids that were that age. They were all our kids’ age; they were all young. Jennifer didn’t start babysitting until she was about 14, I think, and then she was a good babysitter.

[Assistant] I bet she was quite popular.

[User] Yes, she was.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk about your husband’s mission. We talked a little bit about it last time. I wondered what you thought when Jerry [Gerald P. Carr] came home and told you he’d been selected to command the final Skylab flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at first, no, she wasn’t at first. Some of the secretaries from the Astronaut Office would volunteer to babysit for us, and we got by with that quite a lot. There weren’t really any neighbor kids that were that age. They were all our kids’ age; they were all young. Jennifer didn’t start babysitting until she was about 14, I think, and then she was a good babysitter.

[Assistant] I bet she was quite popular.

[User] Yes, she was.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk about your husband’s mission. We talked a little bit about it last time. I wondered what you thought when Jerry [Gerald P. Carr] came home and told you he’d been selected to command the final Skylab flight.

[User] It was a real charge, because we’d been told his flight was canceled, and it was. He had an Apollo flight he was assigned to. I don’t know whether it was 18 or 19, but he was assigned to one of those, and then the last three were canceled. So all we knew for quite a while was that here we’d been slaving away for six years, and there wasn’t going to be anything for him. That was a bitter pill to swallow. When he came home with this, we were thrilled that he was finally going to get a flight.

[Assistant] Did his hours change at all when he was named to command?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, she was.

[Assistant] I wanted to talk about your husband’s mission. We talked a little bit about it last time. I wondered what you thought when Jerry [Gerald P. Carr] came home and told you he’d been selected to command the final Skylab flight.

[User] It was a real charge, because we’d been told his flight was canceled, and it was. He had an Apollo flight he was assigned to. I don’t know whether it was 18 or 19, but he was assigned to one of those, and then the last three were canceled. So all we knew for quite a while was that here we’d been slaving away for six years, and there wasn’t going to be anything for him. That was a bitter pill to swallow. When he came home with this, we were thrilled that he was finally going to get a flight.

[Assistant] Did his hours change at all when he was named to command?

[User] No, it seemed like they were pretty steady from the time we got here until the time we left. They were busy. They were very busy. It wasn’t much different from when he was just supporting other flights.

[Assistant] I’ve actually read that you had to stand in for him quite a bit at Jeff’s track meets.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a real charge, because we’d been told his flight was canceled, and it was. He had an Apollo flight he was assigned to. I don’t know whether it was 18 or 19, but he was assigned to one of those, and then the last three were canceled. So all we knew for quite a while was that here we’d been slaving away for six years, and there wasn’t going to be anything for him. That was a bitter pill to swallow. When he came home with this, we were thrilled that he was finally going to get a flight.

[Assistant] Did his hours change at all when he was named to command?

[User] No, it seemed like they were pretty steady from the time we got here until the time we left. They were busy. They were very busy. It wasn’t much different from when he was just supporting other flights.

[Assistant] I’ve actually read that you had to stand in for him quite a bit at Jeff’s track meets.

[User] Jeff’s track meet, yes. I said, “I don’t know how to do this,” to the guy that was standing next to me, so he told me. He said, “You just press this. When they come across the line, you press this.” I didn’t do a whole lot of that, but he didn’t do a whole lot of it either.

[Assistant] When we talked with Gratia [Lousma], we went up to Kerrville in the middle of July and had a chance to talk to her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it seemed like they were pretty steady from the time we got here until the time we left. They were busy. They were very busy. It wasn’t much different from when he was just supporting other flights.

[Assistant] I’ve actually read that you had to stand in for him quite a bit at Jeff’s track meets.

[User] Jeff’s track meet, yes. I said, “I don’t know how to do this,” to the guy that was standing next to me, so he told me. He said, “You just press this. When they come across the line, you press this.” I didn’t do a whole lot of that, but he didn’t do a whole lot of it either.

[Assistant] When we talked with Gratia [Lousma], we went up to Kerrville in the middle of July and had a chance to talk to her.

[User] Oh, good.

[Assistant] She was telling us about a support group that she helped form with Terry McGuire, but I wasn’t sure on the dates for that. Was that something that was established when you were still in the Office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jeff’s track meet, yes. I said, “I don’t know how to do this,” to the guy that was standing next to me, so he told me. He said, “You just press this. When they come across the line, you press this.” I didn’t do a whole lot of that, but he didn’t do a whole lot of it either.

[Assistant] When we talked with Gratia [Lousma], we went up to Kerrville in the middle of July and had a chance to talk to her.

[User] Oh, good.

[Assistant] She was telling us about a support group that she helped form with Terry McGuire, but I wasn’t sure on the dates for that. Was that something that was established when you were still in the Office?

[User] We went to Terry McGuire for a little while on our own. But to tell you the truth, Terry McGuire is a career military man. What do you think the job of a career military doctor is? To keep the men in the air and to keep the wives quiet. So I didn’t care for his counseling. I didn’t go very much after our first few times, because it seemed to me like I was all excited over going to law school and he made me feel like I should be staying home with the kids.\n\n I thought, “I’m not coming back to you anymore. You want me to be Doris Day, find somebody else.” Gratia loved him, and she still does. He had a group of women that went to him as a group, and they all seemed to really get something out of it and enjoy it. So it was just my attitude I guess that soured the relationship with Terry.

[Assistant] You were in a different place. Gratia was staying at home with the kids, and you wanted to move on and not be a homemaker anymore.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, good.

[Assistant] She was telling us about a support group that she helped form with Terry McGuire, but I wasn’t sure on the dates for that. Was that something that was established when you were still in the Office?

[User] We went to Terry McGuire for a little while on our own. But to tell you the truth, Terry McGuire is a career military man. What do you think the job of a career military doctor is? To keep the men in the air and to keep the wives quiet. So I didn’t care for his counseling. I didn’t go very much after our first few times, because it seemed to me like I was all excited over going to law school and he made me feel like I should be staying home with the kids.\n\n I thought, “I’m not coming back to you anymore. You want me to be Doris Day, find somebody else.” Gratia loved him, and she still does. He had a group of women that went to him as a group, and they all seemed to really get something out of it and enjoy it. So it was just my attitude I guess that soured the relationship with Terry.

[Assistant] You were in a different place. Gratia was staying at home with the kids, and you wanted to move on and not be a homemaker anymore.

[User] That’s right. That’s my opinion of Terry McGuire as a psychiatrist. I don’t even know if he was a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I figured that he got paid by the military, and so he worked for the military. As far as I was concerned, he was not my friend.

[Assistant] That makes sense. I think when we were at the church you talked about briefly how NASA and the wives were doing a disservice to the children of Apollo because they didn’t bring up issues that their children were having or concerns that you were facing because they were so concerned about the flight, the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eisele.

[Assistant] That’s what I thought. Where do you think that this image came from? Do you think you all were reading Life magazine and had seen the spreads and therefore made that assumption about the families?

[User] Oh yes. The fact that most of them were military was for me, and I think—I don’t know if all military wives, I can’t speak for that broad of a group. I think we looked at that and we thought, “Wow, they’re finally going to get to do something really wonderful with what they’ve learned and what they’ve done and what we’ve put up with. We’re going to benefit from that too.”

[Assistant] I was just curious if you came up with that idea of the families and the wives based on Life.

[User] Yes, I think it was based on Life and what we were seeing in the media, because we didn’t have any other information. At least some of us didn’t. I think some of them already knew some of the guys that were already here, and so they probably talked to them. I thought it was going to be a great adventure all the way round, to go to the Moon or to Mars for that matter. I thought we would maybe be going to Mars by the time he was kicked off his flight. I thought we would be on our way to Mars. I hope I live long enough to see that.

[Assistant] If [President Donald J.] Trump has his way, he’s pushing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. The fact that most of them were military was for me, and I think—I don’t know if all military wives, I can’t speak for that broad of a group. I think we looked at that and we thought, “Wow, they’re finally going to get to do something really wonderful with what they’ve learned and what they’ve done and what we’ve put up with. We’re going to benefit from that too.”

[Assistant] I was just curious if you came up with that idea of the families and the wives based on Life.

[User] Yes, I think it was based on Life and what we were seeing in the media, because we didn’t have any other information. At least some of us didn’t. I think some of them already knew some of the guys that were already here, and so they probably talked to them. I thought it was going to be a great adventure all the way round, to go to the Moon or to Mars for that matter. I thought we would maybe be going to Mars by the time he was kicked off his flight. I thought we would be on our way to Mars. I hope I live long enough to see that.

[Assistant] If [President Donald J.] Trump has his way, he’s pushing.

[User] We’ll see.

[Assistant] Or Elon Musk, some of those other guys. I noticed that there was a photograph that NASA has of your family. I assume it was taken around the time that your ex-husband was selected to command Skylab. Was that normal? It’s a photo of you two in front of your fireplace, and all your children, and I think a cat and a dog.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it was based on Life and what we were seeing in the media, because we didn’t have any other information. At least some of us didn’t. I think some of them already knew some of the guys that were already here, and so they probably talked to them. I thought it was going to be a great adventure all the way round, to go to the Moon or to Mars for that matter. I thought we would maybe be going to Mars by the time he was kicked off his flight. I thought we would be on our way to Mars. I hope I live long enough to see that.

[Assistant] If [President Donald J.] Trump has his way, he’s pushing.

[User] We’ll see.

[Assistant] Or Elon Musk, some of those other guys. I noticed that there was a photograph that NASA has of your family. I assume it was taken around the time that your ex-husband was selected to command Skylab. Was that normal? It’s a photo of you two in front of your fireplace, and all your children, and I think a cat and a dog.

[User] A cat and a dog, yes. No, that wasn’t when we were selected. That was after we’d been here for a good while, because Jennifer was 16 or something, when that was taken.

[Assistant] Her hair looks pretty long.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’ll see.

[Assistant] Or Elon Musk, some of those other guys. I noticed that there was a photograph that NASA has of your family. I assume it was taken around the time that your ex-husband was selected to command Skylab. Was that normal? It’s a photo of you two in front of your fireplace, and all your children, and I think a cat and a dog.

[User] A cat and a dog, yes. No, that wasn’t when we were selected. That was after we’d been here for a good while, because Jennifer was 16 or something, when that was taken.

[Assistant] Her hair looks pretty long.

[User] I think it must have been taken before his flight. I really do.

[Assistant] Was that pretty normal just to advertise these family men, they’d draw up these releases?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A cat and a dog, yes. No, that wasn’t when we were selected. That was after we’d been here for a good while, because Jennifer was 16 or something, when that was taken.

[Assistant] Her hair looks pretty long.

[User] I think it must have been taken before his flight. I really do.

[Assistant] Was that pretty normal just to advertise these family men, they’d draw up these releases?

[User] I never questioned it. I never thought about it really, what they were for. They just wanted to come and take pictures so they came and took pictures.\n\n [Break in interview]

[Assistant] We were talking about that photograph that NASA had that was taken probably before Jerry flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it must have been taken before his flight. I really do.

[Assistant] Was that pretty normal just to advertise these family men, they’d draw up these releases?

[User] I never questioned it. I never thought about it really, what they were for. They just wanted to come and take pictures so they came and took pictures.\n\n [Break in interview]

[Assistant] We were talking about that photograph that NASA had that was taken probably before Jerry flew.

[User] Before he flew.

[Assistant] Which I thought was interesting, with the animals.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never questioned it. I never thought about it really, what they were for. They just wanted to come and take pictures so they came and took pictures.\n\n [Break in interview]

[Assistant] We were talking about that photograph that NASA had that was taken probably before Jerry flew.

[User] Before he flew.

[Assistant] Which I thought was interesting, with the animals.

[User] Yes, that’s a neat picture. I love that picture.

[Assistant] That’s a great photo of all the kids.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before he flew.

[Assistant] Which I thought was interesting, with the animals.

[User] Yes, that’s a neat picture. I love that picture.

[Assistant] That’s a great photo of all the kids.

[User] It was in a magazine that I think the Galveston newspaper puts out once a month. [Link: https://www.coastmonthly.com/eedition/2019/07/index_50.html#page=1] They put out a glossy magazine. That picture was in there last month.

[Assistant]
I was going to bring it. I forgot.

I forgot it. You gave it to me, and I forgot it. It is on my desk. I’ll have to bring it to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s a neat picture. I love that picture.

[Assistant] That’s a great photo of all the kids.

[User] It was in a magazine that I think the Galveston newspaper puts out once a month. [Link: https://www.coastmonthly.com/eedition/2019/07/index_50.html#page=1] They put out a glossy magazine. That picture was in there last month.

[Assistant]
I was going to bring it. I forgot.

I forgot it. You gave it to me, and I forgot it. It is on my desk. I’ll have to bring it to you.

[User] Yes. Then there’s another one of us in there on the next page that’s taken at splashdown. We’re all sitting all around and my kids all have a glass of champagne.

[Assistant] Hey, it was his flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in a magazine that I think the Galveston newspaper puts out once a month. [Link: https://www.coastmonthly.com/eedition/2019/07/index_50.html#page=1] They put out a glossy magazine. That picture was in there last month.

[Assistant]
I was going to bring it. I forgot.

I forgot it. You gave it to me, and I forgot it. It is on my desk. I’ll have to bring it to you.

[User] Yes. Then there’s another one of us in there on the next page that’s taken at splashdown. We’re all sitting all around and my kids all have a glass of champagne.

[Assistant] Hey, it was his flight.

[User] Whatever.

[Assistant] There’s worse things in the world. How did you make sure that your kids understood what was happening with Skylab, what your husband would be doing? They were much older now, so they had the capability of understanding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Who said that?

[Assistant] I think it was John that I had read that about. I was curious why that was the case.

[User] There was a children’s docudrama on Saturday mornings on NBC, and they did all sorts of different things. It was a children’s program, and one of the things they did was they followed John around. They went to school with him. The half-hour show was basically more about John, while his dad was flying. If a security person went to school with him because of that, I’m not aware of it. I don’t know what he’s talking about.

[Assistant] It just stood out when I read that. I thought that’s very unusual, that there would be a security detail for a child.

[User] Yes, I don’t know what he’s talking about. I have to ask him.

[Assistant] I think it’s really interesting how you mentioned you wanted to include your kids. So you had seen what the other wives had gone through for Apollo, and you noticed that the kids were just left out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a children’s docudrama on Saturday mornings on NBC, and they did all sorts of different things. It was a children’s program, and one of the things they did was they followed John around. They went to school with him. The half-hour show was basically more about John, while his dad was flying. If a security person went to school with him because of that, I’m not aware of it. I don’t know what he’s talking about.

[Assistant] It just stood out when I read that. I thought that’s very unusual, that there would be a security detail for a child.

[User] Yes, I don’t know what he’s talking about. I have to ask him.

[Assistant] I think it’s really interesting how you mentioned you wanted to include your kids. So you had seen what the other wives had gone through for Apollo, and you noticed that the kids were just left out?

[User] It seemed to me like the kids were kind of pushed to the back a little bit. That was just observing what was going on during the flights. I don’t remember anything specific. It was just a general feeling that I had, that the kids really didn’t get included in very much. I included mine.

[Assistant] What did NASA think about that? Did you tell them that this was your plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and that surprises me, because it was kind of like being in a squadron, and you got the CO’s [commanding officer’s] wife and all of that. The military are pretty good about keeping you aware of your serial number and rank. I thought I would be like the mother hen and I would keep them informed about what was happening, but I didn’t. I didn’t do that. I was totally the Lone Ranger. I didn’t call Julie [Gibson], and I didn’t call Helen [Pogue]. We didn’t see each other very much during that time.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I thought perhaps you would have. I’ve seen a picture of the Skylab II crew with the [antique] car, they seem to be a close group.

[User] They were. We weren’t. I don’t know why exactly except I guess I didn’t take the first steps. I didn’t make the first gesture. I was generally so upset about the way things were going for the crew that I don’t think I wanted to talk to Julie and Helen that much.

[Assistant] Were you close with any of the other Skylab wives?

[User] It was odd because by the time Jerry flew a lot of the astronauts had left the program. They were all starting to scatter, because his was the last flight except for Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project], and we didn’t know how long it would be before anybody would fly again. People were jumping ship like crazy. Joan Roosa had a luncheon for me, and we didn’t do much else. It was a long flight, and it was over Thanksgiving and Christmas and almost Valentine’s Day. No, we didn’t form a little group, w. We pretty much kept to ourselves.

[Assistant] Even though guys were leaving, were you still doing the wives’ club meetings or had that dissipated as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were. We weren’t. I don’t know why exactly except I guess I didn’t take the first steps. I didn’t make the first gesture. I was generally so upset about the way things were going for the crew that I don’t think I wanted to talk to Julie and Helen that much.

[Assistant] Were you close with any of the other Skylab wives?

[User] It was odd because by the time Jerry flew a lot of the astronauts had left the program. They were all starting to scatter, because his was the last flight except for Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project], and we didn’t know how long it would be before anybody would fly again. People were jumping ship like crazy. Joan Roosa had a luncheon for me, and we didn’t do much else. It was a long flight, and it was over Thanksgiving and Christmas and almost Valentine’s Day. No, we didn’t form a little group, w. We pretty much kept to ourselves.

[Assistant] Even though guys were leaving, were you still doing the wives’ club meetings or had that dissipated as well?

[User] That had pretty much gone by the wayside, yes, by that time.

[Assistant] When Apollo 17 wrapped up, was that sort of the end of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was odd because by the time Jerry flew a lot of the astronauts had left the program. They were all starting to scatter, because his was the last flight except for Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project], and we didn’t know how long it would be before anybody would fly again. People were jumping ship like crazy. Joan Roosa had a luncheon for me, and we didn’t do much else. It was a long flight, and it was over Thanksgiving and Christmas and almost Valentine’s Day. No, we didn’t form a little group, w. We pretty much kept to ourselves.

[Assistant] Even though guys were leaving, were you still doing the wives’ club meetings or had that dissipated as well?

[User] That had pretty much gone by the wayside, yes, by that time.

[Assistant] When Apollo 17 wrapped up, was that sort of the end of things?

[User] That was pretty much the end of it. I don’t know that Gratia had anything going on at her house or that Jane Conrad had anything going on at her house for their husbands’ flights. It just all changed after Apollo 11, and people started bailing out. A lot of the ways we used to do things we weren’t doing anymore. It was a very different flight.

[Assistant] Sounds like things were pretty quiet around here. You mentioned that his flight included major holidays between Thanksgiving and almost Valentine’s Day. What did you think when you heard he was going to be up in space for that long? Or did it really matter to you? You’d been a military wife. He’d been gone for such a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That had pretty much gone by the wayside, yes, by that time.

[Assistant] When Apollo 17 wrapped up, was that sort of the end of things?

[User] That was pretty much the end of it. I don’t know that Gratia had anything going on at her house or that Jane Conrad had anything going on at her house for their husbands’ flights. It just all changed after Apollo 11, and people started bailing out. A lot of the ways we used to do things we weren’t doing anymore. It was a very different flight.

[Assistant] Sounds like things were pretty quiet around here. You mentioned that his flight included major holidays between Thanksgiving and almost Valentine’s Day. What did you think when you heard he was going to be up in space for that long? Or did it really matter to you? You’d been a military wife. He’d been gone for such a long time.

[User] No. He’d been in Japan for 13 months. He was in Japan when the last twins were born and they were 11 months old when he got home. That was not any problem for me.

[Assistant] No impact on the family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was pretty much the end of it. I don’t know that Gratia had anything going on at her house or that Jane Conrad had anything going on at her house for their husbands’ flights. It just all changed after Apollo 11, and people started bailing out. A lot of the ways we used to do things we weren’t doing anymore. It was a very different flight.

[Assistant] Sounds like things were pretty quiet around here. You mentioned that his flight included major holidays between Thanksgiving and almost Valentine’s Day. What did you think when you heard he was going to be up in space for that long? Or did it really matter to you? You’d been a military wife. He’d been gone for such a long time.

[User] No. He’d been in Japan for 13 months. He was in Japan when the last twins were born and they were 11 months old when he got home. That was not any problem for me.

[Assistant] No impact on the family?

[User] No. We had our own little group, and we kept up our Christmas rituals. It was just the way things were. We didn’t make a big deal out of it.

[Assistant] All the astronauts have to go into quarantine before a mission. Did you have the opportunity to spend time with him and see him as well as your children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. He’d been in Japan for 13 months. He was in Japan when the last twins were born and they were 11 months old when he got home. That was not any problem for me.

[Assistant] No impact on the family?

[User] No. We had our own little group, and we kept up our Christmas rituals. It was just the way things were. We didn’t make a big deal out of it.

[Assistant] All the astronauts have to go into quarantine before a mission. Did you have the opportunity to spend time with him and see him as well as your children?

[User] The children didn’t get to see him. They could see him from afar, but they couldn’t go in and visit with him or talk to him or hug him. The wives could go. We had a big button that said, “I’m a primary contact.” That was the wives. We could go in and see them in their little quarters, but the kids couldn’t. That was for a month, I think. A month before he went up.

[Assistant] Oh, a month. That’s tough.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We had our own little group, and we kept up our Christmas rituals. It was just the way things were. We didn’t make a big deal out of it.

[Assistant] All the astronauts have to go into quarantine before a mission. Did you have the opportunity to spend time with him and see him as well as your children?

[User] The children didn’t get to see him. They could see him from afar, but they couldn’t go in and visit with him or talk to him or hug him. The wives could go. We had a big button that said, “I’m a primary contact.” That was the wives. We could go in and see them in their little quarters, but the kids couldn’t. That was for a month, I think. A month before he went up.

[Assistant] Oh, a month. That’s tough.

[User] Yes, it was long. It was a three-month flight and one month of quarantine.

[Assistant] I had read when he came back he was also under some restrictions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The children didn’t get to see him. They could see him from afar, but they couldn’t go in and visit with him or talk to him or hug him. The wives could go. We had a big button that said, “I’m a primary contact.” That was the wives. We could go in and see them in their little quarters, but the kids couldn’t. That was for a month, I think. A month before he went up.

[Assistant] Oh, a month. That’s tough.

[User] Yes, it was long. It was a three-month flight and one month of quarantine.

[Assistant] I had read when he came back he was also under some restrictions.

[User] He was under quarantine. He was under house arrest, because the kids couldn’t be there, just the dog could be there. I never understood that.

[Assistant] I was wondering what the reasoning was behind that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was long. It was a three-month flight and one month of quarantine.

[Assistant] I had read when he came back he was also under some restrictions.

[User] He was under quarantine. He was under house arrest, because the kids couldn’t be there, just the dog could be there. I never understood that.

[Assistant] I was wondering what the reasoning was behind that.

[User] I don’t know. The dog could be there, but the kids had to leave. They all stayed with friends. It was just for a week.

[Assistant] I guess he had to acclimate back to gravity. Talk to us about traveling to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] to see the launch of the mission. Did NASA provide you transportation? Or was that something you had to arrange yourselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was under quarantine. He was under house arrest, because the kids couldn’t be there, just the dog could be there. I never understood that.

[Assistant] I was wondering what the reasoning was behind that.

[User] I don’t know. The dog could be there, but the kids had to leave. They all stayed with friends. It was just for a week.

[Assistant] I guess he had to acclimate back to gravity. Talk to us about traveling to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] to see the launch of the mission. Did NASA provide you transportation? Or was that something you had to arrange yourselves?

[User] Rockwell provided the transportation. I think. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I’ll have to check on that and let you know later. I don’t think that plane we went on was a NASA plane. I’ll have to check on that because I don’t want to be unfair about it.

[Assistant] Did the government also provide you transportation when you were around the Cape?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. The dog could be there, but the kids had to leave. They all stayed with friends. It was just for a week.

[Assistant] I guess he had to acclimate back to gravity. Talk to us about traveling to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] to see the launch of the mission. Did NASA provide you transportation? Or was that something you had to arrange yourselves?

[User] Rockwell provided the transportation. I think. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I’ll have to check on that and let you know later. I don’t think that plane we went on was a NASA plane. I’ll have to check on that because I don’t want to be unfair about it.

[Assistant] Did the government also provide you transportation when you were around the Cape?

[User] Somebody did, but I don’t think it was the government. I think it was people who owned car dealerships. They were going to supply me with a limousine to go wherever I needed to go and ride around. I told them I wasn’t going to ride around in that limousine, so they wanted to know what I wanted. I said, “You can get me a convertible. Get me a red convertible,” so they did.\n\n I managed to squeeze all the kids in there. We went to the store, and we went wherever we wanted to go. I didn’t want to be hauled around in a limousine. That was not the government that did that though. That was just the civilians that lived in the area.

[Assistant] Another one of those freebies or perks that you mentioned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rockwell provided the transportation. I think. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I’ll have to check on that and let you know later. I don’t think that plane we went on was a NASA plane. I’ll have to check on that because I don’t want to be unfair about it.

[Assistant] Did the government also provide you transportation when you were around the Cape?

[User] Somebody did, but I don’t think it was the government. I think it was people who owned car dealerships. They were going to supply me with a limousine to go wherever I needed to go and ride around. I told them I wasn’t going to ride around in that limousine, so they wanted to know what I wanted. I said, “You can get me a convertible. Get me a red convertible,” so they did.\n\n I managed to squeeze all the kids in there. We went to the store, and we went wherever we wanted to go. I didn’t want to be hauled around in a limousine. That was not the government that did that though. That was just the civilians that lived in the area.

[Assistant] Another one of those freebies or perks that you mentioned?

[User] Yes, another freebie. Yes, they were really nice to us. They were very good to us.

[Assistant] Where would you stay when you were at the Cape waiting for launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somebody did, but I don’t think it was the government. I think it was people who owned car dealerships. They were going to supply me with a limousine to go wherever I needed to go and ride around. I told them I wasn’t going to ride around in that limousine, so they wanted to know what I wanted. I said, “You can get me a convertible. Get me a red convertible,” so they did.\n\n I managed to squeeze all the kids in there. We went to the store, and we went wherever we wanted to go. I didn’t want to be hauled around in a limousine. That was not the government that did that though. That was just the civilians that lived in the area.

[Assistant] Another one of those freebies or perks that you mentioned?

[User] Yes, another freebie. Yes, they were really nice to us. They were very good to us.

[Assistant] Where would you stay when you were at the Cape waiting for launch?

[User] We were staying at the Holiday Inn. That’s where everybody stayed; we all stayed at the Holiday Inn. They didn’t charge us. I recall that they didn’t charge us for that. They were kind of astronaut central there because the Rockwell people had a big hospitality suite that seemed to be open at all hours of the day and night. So people congregated there, because the astronauts pretty much all stayed there with their families.

[Assistant] Did you get any other support from NASA? Maybe a public affairs person? Or anyone assigned to you? A public affairs person perhaps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He worked here at JSC, and he’s passed on now. He worked for PAO.

[Assistant] One of the traditions while you’re down at the Cape of course is to have a party before liftoff, sort of a bon voyage to the crew, but the crew isn’t there. You and the family are there. I wondered if you would talk about that launch party and who you invited, who ended up coming.

[User] It was small. We invited college friends and we invited church friends and we invited Marine Corps friends, and that was about it. I didn’t take an entourage of stars with me, which Beth Williams got after me saying, “You’re supposed to come down here with an entourage and you come down with an on-tour-age.” It was a really fun party. It was the most fun party of the evening. I invited relatives that I hadn’t seen for a long time. We just had close friends and relatives there. It was a really nice party.

[Assistant] What are your memories of launch day and getting ready to go out to the Cape and finally see your husband go into space?

[User] It’s kind of a blur. We went out to see the rocket at night when it was all lit up with the lights. We all went out there and looked at that, and that was kind of overwhelming. Then we had to get up early in the morning to go on the bus to the viewing site. I had a lot of the same people that had been at the party on the bus with me. Annie and John [H.] Glenn were with us.

[Assistant] That’s kind of an entourage, if you included them at your party. [He’s] kind of a big name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not quite the same. I wasn’t going to relax. I was going to be militant until the time he stepped on the carrier, because too many things had happened other times. [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom’s capsule sank, and they had people coming in off target.\n\n His was a really good rescue, so I was disappointed we couldn’t see it, but we listened to it. Rusty [Russell L.] Schweickart was sitting next to me and keeping me up-to-date on what they were doing by what we could hear on the squawk box. He said, “They’re on the carrier now,” and so I thought oh, now we can have the champagne, so we did.\n\n We had quite a few people over there for his splashdown. It was great fun, and it was really almost kind of a letdown when it was all over. When everybody went home and the leftovers were all put in the refrigerator and the interviews were all given, I was just sitting there with all the flowers and the telegrams and stuff by myself. The kids were out playing in the front yard, which they hadn’t necessarily been able to do for the last few days because of the splashdown. I just felt so let down. I was finally down where I belonged, on the ground, and my heart wasn’t up in the air somewhere.

[Assistant] Why do you feel like you were let down?

[User] Because I was hyper the whole time, that kind of down.

[Assistant] I get you.

[User] I was very militant about what they were doing to my husband. It was a relief to have him back on the ground.

[Assistant] Were you surprised when you saw that beard? Were you expecting to see him clean-shaven?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was hyper the whole time, that kind of down.

[Assistant] I get you.

[User] I was very militant about what they were doing to my husband. It was a relief to have him back on the ground.

[Assistant] Were you surprised when you saw that beard? Were you expecting to see him clean-shaven?

[User] No, he told me he was growing one. Of course I couldn’t see it. Yes, I did too see it, because they did a couple of TV casts from Skylab, so I had seen it. I liked it. I thought it was cool, I thought he should have kept it.

[Assistant] You have said that this experience with NASA changed you. I wanted to see if you could elaborate on that, just the experience of working with the Agency.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very militant about what they were doing to my husband. It was a relief to have him back on the ground.

[Assistant] Were you surprised when you saw that beard? Were you expecting to see him clean-shaven?

[User] No, he told me he was growing one. Of course I couldn’t see it. Yes, I did too see it, because they did a couple of TV casts from Skylab, so I had seen it. I liked it. I thought it was cool, I thought he should have kept it.

[Assistant] You have said that this experience with NASA changed you. I wanted to see if you could elaborate on that, just the experience of working with the Agency.

[User] Changed me? No, it didn’t change me. I think it just brought out more of who I really am.

[Assistant] How is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he told me he was growing one. Of course I couldn’t see it. Yes, I did too see it, because they did a couple of TV casts from Skylab, so I had seen it. I liked it. I thought it was cool, I thought he should have kept it.

[Assistant] You have said that this experience with NASA changed you. I wanted to see if you could elaborate on that, just the experience of working with the Agency.

[User] Changed me? No, it didn’t change me. I think it just brought out more of who I really am.

[Assistant] How is that?

[User] I very much felt like I was part of the whole process, I mean from the beginning, from the word go, from when we started dating, and how I supported him through college, not financially but emotionally. I wanted to be part of it, and I thought I was part of it. But NASA didn’t think I was part of it, and that really got me. I’ll take that back as far as Deke goes. He made me feel part of it, because he listened. Nobody else listened to me.

[Assistant] Do you think that was the case for all the wives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Changed me? No, it didn’t change me. I think it just brought out more of who I really am.

[Assistant] How is that?

[User] I very much felt like I was part of the whole process, I mean from the beginning, from the word go, from when we started dating, and how I supported him through college, not financially but emotionally. I wanted to be part of it, and I thought I was part of it. But NASA didn’t think I was part of it, and that really got me. I’ll take that back as far as Deke goes. He made me feel part of it, because he listened. Nobody else listened to me.

[Assistant] Do you think that was the case for all the wives?

[User] I don’t think anybody made as much trouble as I did. They were shorter flights, so there wasn’t much that could go wrong. There were a lot of things that could go wrong, but there wasn’t anything that could develop that was a relational sort of thing. I don’t know. Say that again.

[Assistant] I was just curious about—like you ended up going to law school. Was that because of your experience working with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I think I did a pretty damn good job being a housewife. I did a lot of things. I was a great cook. I told you I made my own clothes, and they weren’t homemade-looking, they were very professional-looking. I had taken a class in tailoring and a class in hat making. I was good at cooking, and I was pretty good at everything a housewife does. I knew that the kids were going to grow up and leave me and then I was going to be alone.\n\n I think he was scared, I really do. I think he was scared that I was going to law school. I guess I was pretty out of control sometimes when I talked back to people, and talked back to the people at NASA, and all those things that he thought I shouldn’t do.

[Assistant] It benefited him in the end, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I want to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you because I’m looking at my time.

[User] What time do you have?

[Assistant] Two forty-three, so we have a few minutes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I want to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you because I’m looking at my time.

[User] What time do you have?

[Assistant] Two forty-three, so we have a few minutes.

[User] Oh, good, you can make it.

[Assistant] Yes. I think the only thing that I thought, since we just have a few minutes, is if you want to tell us, just so we’ll have it on the recording, why you decided to write your book [Keeper of the Flame].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What time do you have?

[Assistant] Two forty-three, so we have a few minutes.

[User] Oh, good, you can make it.

[Assistant] Yes. I think the only thing that I thought, since we just have a few minutes, is if you want to tell us, just so we’ll have it on the recording, why you decided to write your book [Keeper of the Flame].

[User] I’ve always been interested in writing, even in school, but I thought I’d write like a memoir sort of thing. I did that, and it was really boring. I thought but my life has not been boring, so there’s something wrong with the way I’m writing it.\n\n I took a bunch of classes at junior [college], and I took some extension courses from UCLA [University of California, Los Angeles] about how to write. It just came to me one night when I was watching a play my son was in. I thought, “I’ll write a novel, and I’ll make it just true to life, but it’ll be a novel, so I can pretty much say whatever I want to say.”\n\n That’s how I wrote the novel. I took a lot of classes, I took a lot of notes, I worked on it for years and years. Then I got a freelance editor who urged me to rewrite some of it, and so I rewrote it. I like to say it only took me 20 years to write that book, off and on. That’s how I came to write it. It was very cathartic too, to write that. Laugh at the funny things and cry at the sad things.

[Assistant] I enjoyed reading your book.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, good, you can make it.

[Assistant] Yes. I think the only thing that I thought, since we just have a few minutes, is if you want to tell us, just so we’ll have it on the recording, why you decided to write your book [Keeper of the Flame].

[User] I’ve always been interested in writing, even in school, but I thought I’d write like a memoir sort of thing. I did that, and it was really boring. I thought but my life has not been boring, so there’s something wrong with the way I’m writing it.\n\n I took a bunch of classes at junior [college], and I took some extension courses from UCLA [University of California, Los Angeles] about how to write. It just came to me one night when I was watching a play my son was in. I thought, “I’ll write a novel, and I’ll make it just true to life, but it’ll be a novel, so I can pretty much say whatever I want to say.”\n\n That’s how I wrote the novel. I took a lot of classes, I took a lot of notes, I worked on it for years and years. Then I got a freelance editor who urged me to rewrite some of it, and so I rewrote it. I like to say it only took me 20 years to write that book, off and on. That’s how I came to write it. It was very cathartic too, to write that. Laugh at the funny things and cry at the sad things.

[Assistant] I enjoyed reading your book.

[User] Oh. Thank you.

[Assistant] Yes, it was-well written.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. Thank you.

[Assistant] Yes, it was-well written.

[User] That means a lot to me. I have a new publisher, and I have a publicist.

[Assistant] Oh, great.

[User] I’m hoping that something comes of that, because I’m forgetting things.

[Assistant] It happens to all of us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That means a lot to me. I have a new publisher, and I have a publicist.

[Assistant] Oh, great.

[User] I’m hoping that something comes of that, because I’m forgetting things.

[Assistant] It happens to all of us.

[User] Really fast. I have to sign this [release].

[Assistant] Oh, yes, please. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you wanted to chat about as we close out today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m hoping that something comes of that, because I’m forgetting things.

[Assistant] It happens to all of us.

[User] Really fast. I have to sign this [release].

[Assistant] Oh, yes, please. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you wanted to chat about as we close out today?

[User] No, I think Skylab was the biggest thing I wanted to get off my shoulders. What’s today?

[Assistant] Today is the 20th. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The SMEAT. It was a very successful test.

[Assistant] Did you help in the development of that test?

[User] Yes. We thought that if we were going to fly all that equipment, we ought to run a ground test with it, at the same pressure they were going to fly at. And so we had three crewmen. It was—oh, let's see. [Robert L.] Crippen, [Karol J.] Bobko, and a guy, oh God, I can't think of his name now [William E. Thornton]. He's a doctor. Anyhow, we had the three of them in there, and we were in a fifty-six-day chamber run, and we found some problems. Some were hardware and some of the procedures, and whatever, and it was a very successful program.\n\n As I say, it lasted two months, but we worked out a lot of stuff, a lot of problems with the hardware and procedures and whatever. Frankly, as a result of that, our medical experiments for the flight program were very successful. The test went very well, went very well. Who was that other doctor? I can't think of his name. He flew in the Shuttle. But anyhow, the test went fine.

[Assistant] How did those astronauts who had to—

[User] They did fine. The one guy was a doctor, and I can't think of his name. I'll think of it. Anyhow, he was kind of a whiner, but the rest of them were fine, and we had a good test. I remember when the test was over, he came out, his wife wasn't there, I thought he was going to cry, but it was a good test.

[Assistant] What were some specific problems that you discovered, that you were able to fix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did fine. The one guy was a doctor, and I can't think of his name. I'll think of it. Anyhow, he was kind of a whiner, but the rest of them were fine, and we had a good test. I remember when the test was over, he came out, his wife wasn't there, I thought he was going to cry, but it was a good test.

[Assistant] What were some specific problems that you discovered, that you were able to fix?

[User] Some of the hardware didn't work right, so we had to get it moved out, and some of the procedures weren't right. Communications weren't what they should have been. You know, it was a good test. I think without it, we would never have had the success we did with the flight program. And most of the medical things we did, you know, allowed us to do things that we were going to do in flight, and I think it was the precursor of the flight program and hardware we were going to fly. And it was a very successful test.\n\n In fact, you know, we put together a report on the thing, and it was about that thick. I've got a hardbound copy of it at home. It was a good test. We had a meeting every morning, and talked about what went on the day before and whatever.

[Assistant] How did you monitor that test? Did you have people there twenty-four hours a day, monitoring?

[User] Yeah, there were people there twenty-four hours a day, and I used to go out there in the evenings and the morning, and at night. It was a good test. It was a good test. One of the funny things, the first day, we were having a meeting, and I used to smoke a pipe back then, and I lit my pipe up and I put all the alarms off in the building. Oh, boy.

[Assistant] Why don't you tell us a little bit about the medical experiments that [were conducted on Skylab].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] What do you expect to see in the future for space exploration?

[User] I have no idea, I really don't. You know, I don't work out there anymore. I think what they're doing up there with the Soviets and the Japanese and all the others, it sounds very interesting, but I'm not real sure that there's enough space up there to do all the things they keep saying they're going to do. But I don't work there, and I can't really say that what they're doing is right or wrong.\n\n You know, I would much rather see the United States put up their own space station and do their own thing, but they've got the Soviets and they've got the Japanese, and then I don't know who all they've got. They've got the Europeans. You know, it's a big International Space Station [ISS]. It maybe will work out, I don't know.\n\n If I were working at NASA, I don't think I'd be real happy about it. I think that we should have enough national pride that we're going to put up what we want, and we're going to run the programs we want to run. Now, if the other people want to come up and participate, fine, but we're running it. But that isn't the way the International Space Station is being run. There's a big community of countries that are running it, and we just happen to be one of them. And, unfortunately, we're putting most of the money into it.

[Assistant] Yes, we are.

[User] We are.

[Assistant] Well, before we conclude your oral history, is there anything else you'd like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anything else you ever want to talk to me about, call me.

[Assistant]
Okay, we'll do that. Thank you very much for telling us about your history. But before we close, we'll see if Kevin has a question.

Yes, actually, I had a few questions, if you don't mind.

[User] No.

[Assistant] First, on some general things, I guess, just reflections on your career. You began to talk about the new International Space Station, and I wondered what you feel NASA should have or did learn from Skylab that would be appropriate for the ISS?

[User] Well, that's kind of a hard question. We learned an awful lot about the medical aspects of it. Now, whether a lot of that stuff still applies, I don't know. It's hard for me to say. I think we learned a lot about Earth resources and a lot about other things during that period. So I can't really tell you exactly what I think the Space Station, as they're getting ready to launch, will really accomplish.

[Assistant] Well, I guess I was thinking in terms of how you operate a station and sort of the daily running of long-term missions, because Skylab was really our first exposure to that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, so I have varying levels of ambition. Sometimes I’ll say it’s time for me to write another paper, and I’ll do some research and slap together a paper and go present it somewhere. I’m busy. I am busy.

[Assistant] Sounds like it.

[User] I put in only four hours a day usually here, but I’ll be down at the university, I’ll be at the LBJ [Lyndon Baines Johnson] School [of Public Affairs], I’m involved with the continuing education program here in Austin [University of Texas at Austin Osher Lifelong Learning Institute]. It’s called UT FORUM. That’s mainly for retired persons like myself, but we have professors. Living in a university town like this there’s so many things going on, there’s always something going on. We get experts in just any kind of field that you want to come and talk to us about the latest and greatest developments in that field. They love doing it, and we love learning things, staying up to speed on things.

[Assistant] Keeps our minds moving in the right direction, doesn’t it, learning something new.

[User] Yes it does.

[Assistant] As you look back on those years that you spent with NASA is there a time that you feel like it was the most challenging part of your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, we're talking about the year before I was in Peace Corps?

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] And I'm a native Chicagoan, number one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And my husband and I had already spent time in, he worked for the UNDP [United Nations Development Programme]. And we, he did work on the island of Bonaire. So we had already been overseas for two years.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, where is Bonaire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm a native Chicagoan, number one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And my husband and I had already spent time in, he worked for the UNDP [United Nations Development Programme]. And we, he did work on the island of Bonaire. So we had already been overseas for two years.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, where is Bonaire?

[User] In the Netherlands Antilles.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my husband and I had already spent time in, he worked for the UNDP [United Nations Development Programme]. And we, he did work on the island of Bonaire. So we had already been overseas for two years.

[Assistant] Okay. Now, where is Bonaire?

[User] In the Netherlands Antilles.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] So, um. And we were looking to go back overseas and we had a number of options.

[Assistant] Right. What about your own background? You grew up in Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the Netherlands Antilles.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] So, um. And we were looking to go back overseas and we had a number of options.

[Assistant] Right. What about your own background? You grew up in Chicago?

[User] Grew up in Chicago, yeah.

[Assistant] High school, college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um. And we were looking to go back overseas and we had a number of options.

[Assistant] Right. What about your own background? You grew up in Chicago?

[User] Grew up in Chicago, yeah.

[Assistant] High school, college?

[User] High school. College in central Illinois. And then came back to Chicago and did a master's degree at the University of Chicago.

[Assistant] Oh. And in what subject?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grew up in Chicago, yeah.

[Assistant] High school, college?

[User] High school. College in central Illinois. And then came back to Chicago and did a master's degree at the University of Chicago.

[Assistant] Oh. And in what subject?

[User] It was in social psychology, actually.

[Assistant] And at that point, did you begin a work career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had been doing some pre-service teaching and in- service teacher training.

[Assistant] Right?

[User] Yeah, for one of the city colleges in Chicago.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And for Northeastern Illinois University as well.

[Assistant] Right. And, but then you, you started the family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then had actually, I was actually working at the University of Illinois Circle, now that I think about this, uh, in their student services area because I was working in education, doing some educational programs.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, um, but I always had an interest in being overseas.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so wanted to go back overseas. So we were looking at options to get us back overseas.

[Assistant] How long were you in Bonaire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, but I always had an interest in being overseas.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so wanted to go back overseas. So we were looking at options to get us back overseas.

[Assistant] How long were you in Bonaire?

[User] Two years.

[Assistant] And while you were there, was it, did you have a professional role or was it just your husband?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was a, uh, he actually directed a couple of programs for them. He worked in the ILL and they had some vocational education programs. And so he is an artist by training, but he also is a sculptor and he's very skilled in woodworking. And so they had, and we both do leathercraft.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And they had hired him to set up a tannery and run a leather program and actually produce goods.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So he did woodworking and leather.

[Assistant] Did you get involved at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So he did woodworking and leather.

[Assistant] Did you get involved at all?

[User] Only with some of the designs, because I, and they also had had people there before who had developed a series of designs because they had a tourist shop.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so what they were trying to do is train young people in a set of skills whereby they could actually earn a living.

[Assistant] Right. And so how old were your children when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only with some of the designs, because I, and they also had had people there before who had developed a series of designs because they had a tourist shop.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And so what they were trying to do is train young people in a set of skills whereby they could actually earn a living.

[Assistant] Right. And so how old were your children when you were there?

[User] My children, my youngest was three and my daughter was three, and my son was just about going on five.

[Assistant] So you must have been busy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My children, my youngest was three and my daughter was three, and my son was just about going on five.

[Assistant] So you must have been busy.

[User] Yeah, well, actually, no, they were a little younger. She was two and a half and he was more like four.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you came back and settled back into Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, actually, no, they were a little younger. She was two and a half and he was more like four.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you came back and settled back into Chicago?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] And then how did Peace Corps get into the mix?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she told me that they were interested in teacher trainers. And we had actually had a couple of other options, but we decided to take Peace Corps because it was one, it was the only option that would actually employ both of us.

[Assistant] Ah, yes.

[User] Everything else was either me or him.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So it was, that was why we decided on the Peace Corps. And that it would be a nice experience. We wanted to go to Africa, but the other two options were not Africa. One was Guyana and the other one was Cyprus.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um, when did you first hear about the Peace Corps? Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything else was either me or him.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So it was, that was why we decided on the Peace Corps. And that it would be a nice experience. We wanted to go to Africa, but the other two options were not Africa. One was Guyana and the other one was Cyprus.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um, when did you first hear about the Peace Corps? Do you remember?

[User] Oh, I had heard about it long, a long time, when I was in college. Even so, I was familiar with it. But I.

[Assistant] And you did know a few people who had served.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was, that was why we decided on the Peace Corps. And that it would be a nice experience. We wanted to go to Africa, but the other two options were not Africa. One was Guyana and the other one was Cyprus.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um, when did you first hear about the Peace Corps? Do you remember?

[User] Oh, I had heard about it long, a long time, when I was in college. Even so, I was familiar with it. But I.

[Assistant] And you did know a few people who had served.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So then you make the decision that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So then you make the decision that.

[User] Yeah, that we would give it a try. Yeah. Because it's a two year commitment. So that's not a long time. And because you're actually employed by the government and you have a stipend and the rest, it's not like you're going to a country and having to fend for yourself, you know?

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You had support. So that that made sense to us.

[Assistant] It'd be a consideration with young children.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that we would give it a try. Yeah. Because it's a two year commitment. So that's not a long time. And because you're actually employed by the government and you have a stipend and the rest, it's not like you're going to a country and having to fend for yourself, you know?

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] You had support. So that that made sense to us.

[Assistant] It'd be a consideration with young children.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you recall the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Um, it was kind of three stages. We applied from Chicago, and the recruiter who was working with us was a very, she was very good. She actually bent over backwards to get us in because she knew that she had to, uh, bringing in families was, even though they had the initiative on, they had to make sure, A, that you were stable. You know, there are a lot of Peace Corps volunteers who don't, shouldn't be going off to Peace Corps. And they really wanted to make sure they didn't make that mistake with the family.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But also with the family, they needed to know that you could take care of your children because they didn't want, you know, the liability issues associated from, you know. Not to say that the State Department doesn't deal with them when they send families overseas all the time. But Peace Corps, as you know, is not resourced in the same way.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, uh.

[Assistant] So the recruiter was working with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But also with the family, they needed to know that you could take care of your children because they didn't want, you know, the liability issues associated from, you know. Not to say that the State Department doesn't deal with them when they send families overseas all the time. But Peace Corps, as you know, is not resourced in the same way.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, uh.

[Assistant] So the recruiter was working with you?

[User] Yeah. And she was good. You know, recruiters are all different. And in those days, uh, it was a very competitive process. It wasn't so much about their numbers and them needing to recruit a quota as them needing to actually get really good volunteers that wouldn't wind up being a problem.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, uh.

[Assistant] So the recruiter was working with you?

[User] Yeah. And she was good. You know, recruiters are all different. And in those days, uh, it was a very competitive process. It wasn't so much about their numbers and them needing to recruit a quota as them needing to actually get really good volunteers that wouldn't wind up being a problem.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] And so.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps was relatively small then overall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And she was good. You know, recruiters are all different. And in those days, uh, it was a very competitive process. It wasn't so much about their numbers and them needing to recruit a quota as them needing to actually get really good volunteers that wouldn't wind up being a problem.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] And so.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps was relatively small then overall?

[User] No, at that point it wasn't. It was really pretty large because they had a regional recruiting office.

[Assistant] Oh, in Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they had, oh, my sense of it was at least 10 or 12 offices.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which made it easier for us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because generally most of the families were recruited through Washington as opposed to being recruited at a, at a regional. And so she shepherded us through that process because we both had skills for programs that were desperate to have these skills, that they were having a hard time getting skilled people to do.

[Assistant] Right. Your skill was defined as teacher training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So he. And Liberia was such that they were pretty sophisticated in terms of the level of expertise they were looking for and they really needed people to, for Peace Corps, and this was also kind of problematic with Peace Corps, to actually be able to work with a related USAID project.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And not every Peace Corps volunteer was well suited to that. That was the kind of marriage that often didn't work very well. And it had other vulnerabilities, let's say.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But in this case AID, well, in Liberia really needed us. So yeah.

[Assistant] But at the same time, was there, did AID have any program where you might have gone to work directly for them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I mean, yes and no. That comes later on.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Because actually, when you asked about the recruiting process, so basically her name was Pat. I'm trying to think of her surname. But anyway, so it was a straightforward process. I think from start to finish, it took about seven months.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] For the clearances and everything.

[Assistant] From the get-go though, it was, you were being recruited for that project in Liberia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the clearances and everything.

[Assistant] From the get-go though, it was, you were being recruited for that project in Liberia?

[User] Yes, because when she saw us, it was a dead marker because I already had experience. And my husband already.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] So and she knew that, you know, we, she was good. She knew all of the vacancies and all of the skill requirements. So she was, she was a good recruiter.

[Assistant] What did your, at that point, what did your family and friends think of your going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were worried of course, they don't like to see you take children overseas, especially to those, uh, backwards countries.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] You know, so our friends were only too happy, because that was a time when a lot of people were going to Africa, you know? So in that regard, it wasn't unusual.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And among certain people, the Peace Corps, you know, was still an attractive option at that point, particularly among college graduates.

[Assistant] Being African American, did you have any particular meaning, special meaning, in going to Liberia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't want to go to Kenya, and at that time Ethiopia was open. But, you know, you had to go to where the positions were.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] And so and again, in terms of family, no. In fact, Liberia was our last choice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because we regarded that as too Anglicized.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they wouldn't let you go to Ghana?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so and again, in terms of family, no. In fact, Liberia was our last choice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because we regarded that as too Anglicized.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they wouldn't let you go to Ghana?

[User] Well, it had to do with the jobs.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it had to do with the jobs.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's true.

[User] You know, and there weren't really jobs there for families.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] You know, the jobs for families were in very, uh, they were scarce to begin with and they were pretty much in pivotal, associated with pivotal programs so.

[Assistant] But at some point you were content with the idea that you were going to Liberia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I mean, Pat made a compelling case that, you know, she was clear about that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then as African Americans, um, and it just so happened she was African American as well so, and she, she knew what the numbers looked like.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And there tended to be a higher rejection rate among African American applicants than there was among whites. So when she saw us, she, you know, really pushed.

[Assistant] You're very solid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then as African Americans, um, and it just so happened she was African American as well so, and she, she knew what the numbers looked like.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And there tended to be a higher rejection rate among African American applicants than there was among whites. So when she saw us, she, you know, really pushed.

[Assistant] You're very solid.

[User] Yeah. So she knew. Yeah. So she knew what to do.

[Assistant] So you, you then finally got a letter saying you're invited to Liberia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there tended to be a higher rejection rate among African American applicants than there was among whites. So when she saw us, she, you know, really pushed.

[Assistant] You're very solid.

[User] Yeah. So she knew. Yeah. So she knew what to do.

[Assistant] So you, you then finally got a letter saying you're invited to Liberia.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You were ready for it to come, I mean, you had a sense of what the timing was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You were ready for it to come, I mean, you had a sense of what the timing was?

[User] Uh, we were busy doing other things. Like I said, I had to quit a full time job.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So. And that wasn't received very well at all. It wasn't. The man looked at me like I was crazy. He said, what did you want to do that for? Do you want to be a gypsy all your life, he goes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And if you ask.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, we were busy doing other things. Like I said, I had to quit a full time job.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So. And that wasn't received very well at all. It wasn't. The man looked at me like I was crazy. He said, what did you want to do that for? Do you want to be a gypsy all your life, he goes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And if you ask.

[User] People would kill for this job that you have and you're going to throw it away?

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had to close up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So. And that wasn't received very well at all. It wasn't. The man looked at me like I was crazy. He said, what did you want to do that for? Do you want to be a gypsy all your life, he goes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And if you ask.

[User] People would kill for this job that you have and you're going to throw it away?

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had to close up?

[User] Yeah, we had this, we had an apartment. We put our things in storage. We sold a lot of things, sold our cars, and off we went. Yeah.

[Assistant] And the kids agreed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People would kill for this job that you have and you're going to throw it away?

[Assistant] Yeah. So you had to close up?

[User] Yeah, we had this, we had an apartment. We put our things in storage. We sold a lot of things, sold our cars, and off we went. Yeah.

[Assistant] And the kids agreed?

[User] Oh, the kids at that age, they don't complain.

[Assistant] They're highly mobile at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had this, we had an apartment. We put our things in storage. We sold a lot of things, sold our cars, and off we went. Yeah.

[Assistant] And the kids agreed?

[User] Oh, the kids at that age, they don't complain.

[Assistant] They're highly mobile at that point.

[User] They're highly mobile and they had a good time. They spent a lot of time in, I mean, when you look at it, our daughter is two years old, two and a half years old, who spends two years in another country, she's been lived there as long as she's lived anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Well, we'll get to that. So you had, you had the invitation and it was to report to X?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, the kids at that age, they don't complain.

[Assistant] They're highly mobile at that point.

[User] They're highly mobile and they had a good time. They spent a lot of time in, I mean, when you look at it, our daughter is two years old, two and a half years old, who spends two years in another country, she's been lived there as long as she's lived anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Well, we'll get to that. So you had, you had the invitation and it was to report to X?

[User] Yeah, it was training. We did our training in Washington part ways. But for this segment, it was really considered a in-country training.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the Washington phase. You report to Washington.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They're highly mobile and they had a good time. They spent a lot of time in, I mean, when you look at it, our daughter is two years old, two and a half years old, who spends two years in another country, she's been lived there as long as she's lived anywhere.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Well, we'll get to that. So you had, you had the invitation and it was to report to X?

[User] Yeah, it was training. We did our training in Washington part ways. But for this segment, it was really considered a in-country training.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the Washington phase. You report to Washington.

[User] Because we were a family, we actually did report. Did we report to Washington? I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] There must be some point when you did shots and some advance passport stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was training. We did our training in Washington part ways. But for this segment, it was really considered a in-country training.

[Assistant] Okay. Let's talk about the Washington phase. You report to Washington.

[User] Because we were a family, we actually did report. Did we report to Washington? I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] There must be some point when you did shots and some advance passport stuff.

[User] Well, see, we trained at Peabody College, what was then Peabody College, in Memphis, uh, in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Assistant] Oh, but not overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we were a family, we actually did report. Did we report to Washington? I'm trying to think.

[Assistant] There must be some point when you did shots and some advance passport stuff.

[User] Well, see, we trained at Peabody College, what was then Peabody College, in Memphis, uh, in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Assistant] Oh, but not overseas?

[User] Uh, and we did some training overseas later as well. We had one of the longest trainings of any group that ever went to Peace Corps because we had approximately six weeks in the U.S. And then another 6 or 7 weeks in country. And they were still playing around with optimal models of training.

[Assistant] Right. And the shift had occurred where most training was being done in country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, see, we trained at Peabody College, what was then Peabody College, in Memphis, uh, in Nashville, Tennessee.

[Assistant] Oh, but not overseas?

[User] Uh, and we did some training overseas later as well. We had one of the longest trainings of any group that ever went to Peace Corps because we had approximately six weeks in the U.S. And then another 6 or 7 weeks in country. And they were still playing around with optimal models of training.

[Assistant] Right. And the shift had occurred where most training was being done in country.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Although they still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they still. And but for this group, because it was mostly education people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Uh, and I'm trying to think. I don't think we were all going to Liberia or?

[Assistant] It's possible.

[User] I think we all were. Um. Yeah, we all were.

[Assistant] Well, let's talk about reporting to Peabody.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, and I'm trying to think. I don't think we were all going to Liberia or?

[Assistant] It's possible.

[User] I think we all were. Um. Yeah, we all were.

[Assistant] Well, let's talk about reporting to Peabody.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall your initial reaction to? Now you're in the midst of a bunch of other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall your initial reaction to? Now you're in the midst of a bunch of other people.

[User] Yeah, well, it was wintertime, number one. My daughter got pneumonia, number two.

[Assistant] Oh!

[User] Yeah, it was weird. Well, we had different accommodation from the other volunteers. They had actually rented a house for us to live in within walking distance of Peabody.

[Assistant] Okay, let's take a look at the training group then. Were there other married couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, it was wintertime, number one. My daughter got pneumonia, number two.

[Assistant] Oh!

[User] Yeah, it was weird. Well, we had different accommodation from the other volunteers. They had actually rented a house for us to live in within walking distance of Peabody.

[Assistant] Okay, let's take a look at the training group then. Were there other married couples?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So the others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had been divided into various groups. Some were teacher trainers. My teacher training group, for example, was 15 people.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] The voc ag contingent was probably 8 or 9.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And then there were math science people, you know. So I'm sure there were a good 60 of us.

[Assistant] Let's first talk about the domestic arrangements, then we'll get into the content of training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then there were math science people, you know. So I'm sure there were a good 60 of us.

[Assistant] Let's first talk about the domestic arrangements, then we'll get into the content of training.

[User] Um, the domestic arrangements for us, because we were family, they put us, they rented a house for us.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so we were separate from all the others in that regard, for houses.

[Assistant] You were spending a lot of time in class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, the domestic arrangements for us, because we were family, they put us, they rented a house for us.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so we were separate from all the others in that regard, for houses.

[Assistant] You were spending a lot of time in class?

[User] Yes. And what they had arranged for my son, he went to a, they both did. They went to a preschool right there at Peabody.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So they were close by.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we were separate from all the others in that regard, for houses.

[Assistant] You were spending a lot of time in class?

[User] Yes. And what they had arranged for my son, he went to a, they both did. They went to a preschool right there at Peabody.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So they were close by.

[User] They were close by. Yeah.

[Assistant] All right, let's talk about training, the six weeks at Peabody. Training generally has several components, one of which is language. And I don't know if, if you had a special language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Peabody was strictly pedagogy.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And training about cross-cultural relative to the, to the country.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And what to expect. But no language training.

[Assistant] Right. And the pedagogy, much of it must have been familiar to you from your own background.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And training about cross-cultural relative to the, to the country.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And what to expect. But no language training.

[Assistant] Right. And the pedagogy, much of it must have been familiar to you from your own background.

[User] So it really consisted of Liberia specific, uh, instruction as it related to, uh. By that I mean teaching and teacher training in Liberia. What teachers were, what teachers' needs were.

[Assistant] But did you also do Liberian history and culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what to expect. But no language training.

[Assistant] Right. And the pedagogy, much of it must have been familiar to you from your own background.

[User] So it really consisted of Liberia specific, uh, instruction as it related to, uh. By that I mean teaching and teacher training in Liberia. What teachers were, what teachers' needs were.

[Assistant] But did you also do Liberian history and culture?

[User] Yeah, we did.

[Assistant] But not the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we did.

[Assistant] But not the language?

[User] Not the language, because Liberia is a place that has several languages.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so we were learning region specific, which was the other reason why they had gone to in-country language training, because, you know, the earlier groups found that they were taught one language and then went to a site and couldn't speak to anybody.

[Assistant] It happens all the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not the language, because Liberia is a place that has several languages.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so we were learning region specific, which was the other reason why they had gone to in-country language training, because, you know, the earlier groups found that they were taught one language and then went to a site and couldn't speak to anybody.

[Assistant] It happens all the time.

[User] And so to avoid that, they had gone with a model where all language training was done in a village where you were actually going to be placed.

[Assistant] Well, during this phase of training, did anyone come out from Peace Corps Liberia, from either Peace Corps or AID? And was there, how precise was the definition of what you would be doing when you got there? Let's concentrate on your job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so to avoid that, they had gone with a model where all language training was done in a village where you were actually going to be placed.

[Assistant] Well, during this phase of training, did anyone come out from Peace Corps Liberia, from either Peace Corps or AID? And was there, how precise was the definition of what you would be doing when you got there? Let's concentrate on your job.

[User] For my job, and I can say safely for us, because I actually knew the people who were handling the voc education training.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that person had been with USAID in one part of his life, had been an APCD, um, in rural development or something else, but something related to voc ed anyway. And so, so we really had experts available to us from the country, both host country nationals and former either, well, people who had worked in development in those countries for a long period of time. So we really had competent trainers.

[Assistant] How did you feel about what you were learning? I mean, did it fit, did it seem a little off, or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For my job, and I can say safely for us, because I actually knew the people who were handling the voc education training.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And that person had been with USAID in one part of his life, had been an APCD, um, in rural development or something else, but something related to voc ed anyway. And so, so we really had experts available to us from the country, both host country nationals and former either, well, people who had worked in development in those countries for a long period of time. So we really had competent trainers.

[Assistant] How did you feel about what you were learning? I mean, did it fit, did it seem a little off, or?

[User] Yeah. It was, it fit very closely.

[Assistant] Okay. I don't know if there was still doing it with this model. Often in training there is a selection component where you're screened further by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, but in those days they were still hiring, really what I wanted to say was highly trained, highly skilled, competent professionals who had worked overseas.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, and the, you know, the process by which they selected the training sites and the rest was closely associated with people who had real track records. Later there was this shift to go with a bidding process where people who came in with the right kind of a package. And Peabody certainly had to bid. But they had been successful in training education volunteers because ours essentially was an education group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Were the others in your teacher ed group, generally speaking, younger than you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, and the, you know, the process by which they selected the training sites and the rest was closely associated with people who had real track records. Later there was this shift to go with a bidding process where people who came in with the right kind of a package. And Peabody certainly had to bid. But they had been successful in training education volunteers because ours essentially was an education group.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Were the others in your teacher ed group, generally speaking, younger than you?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] I mean, you came with a fair amount of experience at whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were either my age.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And some were older. There were 5 or 6 former teachers in that group.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah. For teacher trainers, that's what you look for. You need experienced teachers.

[Assistant] It's a radical change from what was going on in the 60s. You know, it's much more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And, well, it had to do with the host country and what they were demanding.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] In the Liberia case, they had a long history of working with Peace Corps. They had a sophisticated set of skills that they were seeking.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so they knew that they just didn't want freshly minted undergraduates.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when you're in the six week training program, did you have any second thoughts about is this a smart thing to do or do I want to do this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the Liberia case, they had a long history of working with Peace Corps. They had a sophisticated set of skills that they were seeking.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so they knew that they just didn't want freshly minted undergraduates.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when you're in the six week training program, did you have any second thoughts about is this a smart thing to do or do I want to do this?

[User] No, you know, because for us to sell up everything and make that kind of move, second thoughts are not an option.

[Assistant] You're not going back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they knew that they just didn't want freshly minted undergraduates.

[Assistant] Yeah. So when you're in the six week training program, did you have any second thoughts about is this a smart thing to do or do I want to do this?

[User] No, you know, because for us to sell up everything and make that kind of move, second thoughts are not an option.

[Assistant] You're not going back.

[User] No, no. Now, there were people who opted out at that point, and there were some people in country who should have opted out a lot earlier. And yeah, what we discover later is people have all sorts of motives for going overseas.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes. And but the training that you were doing at Peabody wasn't particularly probing that aspect, you know, pushing you on motivation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, and as I said, at that point, they weren't using a psychologist to do it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] They tried to really identify people on the front end, at the point at which they're initially recruited.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] You know, and so there they're running your past.

[Assistant] So there was no, there was no tension within the training about who's going to go and who isn't?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tried to really identify people on the front end, at the point at which they're initially recruited.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] You know, and so there they're running your past.

[Assistant] So there was no, there was no tension within the training about who's going to go and who isn't?

[User] Right. No. And I know what you're talking about.

[Assistant] And that appeared later, or earlier much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. No. And I know what you're talking about.

[Assistant] And that appeared later, or earlier much.

[User] It appears earlier. But also, um, there was that component. I mean, it was clear that we were being evaluated and it was clear that there would be a few people who wouldn't measure up given how they were behaving anyway. You could see that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, but it wasn't intimidating. Whereas we had heard of, we had also known prior volunteers that had the other experience where they were put through sensitivity training and all of these other things to. No, they had abandoned that because that was.

[Assistant] Was the Vietnam War over by then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It appears earlier. But also, um, there was that component. I mean, it was clear that we were being evaluated and it was clear that there would be a few people who wouldn't measure up given how they were behaving anyway. You could see that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, but it wasn't intimidating. Whereas we had heard of, we had also known prior volunteers that had the other experience where they were put through sensitivity training and all of these other things to. No, they had abandoned that because that was.

[Assistant] Was the Vietnam War over by then?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay.