[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You were a senior at the time?

[User] I was a senior at the time and I'm from Massachusetts, you know. My mother was a very active in the town Democratic committee and knew him.

[Assistant] Knew Kennedy?

[User] And knew the Kennedys, and she thought it was a great idea. My father, he didn't think it was such a great idea, and he says, oh, you should get a job, you should go to, you could play. Try pro baseball. You're a pretty good baseball player. But nobody was knocking down the doors to sign me, so I said, well, I'll go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So he didn't object too much about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a senior at the time and I'm from Massachusetts, you know. My mother was a very active in the town Democratic committee and knew him.

[Assistant] Knew Kennedy?

[User] And knew the Kennedys, and she thought it was a great idea. My father, he didn't think it was such a great idea, and he says, oh, you should get a job, you should go to, you could play. Try pro baseball. You're a pretty good baseball player. But nobody was knocking down the doors to sign me, so I said, well, I'll go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So he didn't object too much about that.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] So you grew up, where did you grow up in Massachusetts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And knew the Kennedys, and she thought it was a great idea. My father, he didn't think it was such a great idea, and he says, oh, you should get a job, you should go to, you could play. Try pro baseball. You're a pretty good baseball player. But nobody was knocking down the doors to sign me, so I said, well, I'll go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So he didn't object too much about that.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] So you grew up, where did you grow up in Massachusetts?

[User] Norwood, which is about 20 miles south of Boston. It's about, at that time it was about 25,000 people and just a small town.

[Assistant] And you were a baseball player and then you got a scholarship to the University of Denver?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] So you grew up, where did you grow up in Massachusetts?

[User] Norwood, which is about 20 miles south of Boston. It's about, at that time it was about 25,000 people and just a small town.

[Assistant] And you were a baseball player and then you got a scholarship to the University of Denver?

[User] Well, actually, that time they didn't give baseball scholarships. You had to go to basketball and that, you know, it was. I was the oldest of seven and my mother's Irish and my father was Lithuanian. And he was an all-American football player at Boston College back in the '30s and did box professionally. So everybody in town knew my dad and he was a teacher at the junior high school.

[Assistant] So, so athletics are clearly part of your family. So joining a physical education program is just a natural thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Norwood, which is about 20 miles south of Boston. It's about, at that time it was about 25,000 people and just a small town.

[Assistant] And you were a baseball player and then you got a scholarship to the University of Denver?

[User] Well, actually, that time they didn't give baseball scholarships. You had to go to basketball and that, you know, it was. I was the oldest of seven and my mother's Irish and my father was Lithuanian. And he was an all-American football player at Boston College back in the '30s and did box professionally. So everybody in town knew my dad and he was a teacher at the junior high school.

[Assistant] So, so athletics are clearly part of your family. So joining a physical education program is just a natural thing to do.

[User] It seemed like it, yes.

[Assistant] So this association that you read about it in the magazine, it was the group that sponsored a Peace Corps group or how did it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, that time they didn't give baseball scholarships. You had to go to basketball and that, you know, it was. I was the oldest of seven and my mother's Irish and my father was Lithuanian. And he was an all-American football player at Boston College back in the '30s and did box professionally. So everybody in town knew my dad and he was a teacher at the junior high school.

[Assistant] So, so athletics are clearly part of your family. So joining a physical education program is just a natural thing to do.

[User] It seemed like it, yes.

[Assistant] So this association that you read about it in the magazine, it was the group that sponsored a Peace Corps group or how did it?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I've never heard that. How did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It seemed like it, yes.

[Assistant] So this association that you read about it in the magazine, it was the group that sponsored a Peace Corps group or how did it?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I've never heard that. How did that work?

[User] That was a national organization of physical education and recreation people. And at the university, we all were student members, so we would get the monthly magazine.

[Assistant] But then you all joined as a group or they just did the recruiting?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] I've never heard that. How did that work?

[User] That was a national organization of physical education and recreation people. And at the university, we all were student members, so we would get the monthly magazine.

[Assistant] But then you all joined as a group or they just did the recruiting?

[User] They did. They did the recruiting, but the group, mostly my group was. There was only one other guy in the group that played basketball in college, but the other guys were boxers. There was a two, there were twins. One was in the Olympics with Muhammad Ali and the other one was boxing the Pan Am games. There was an Olympic rower. He was an alternate on the rowing team. There were swimmers. Track and field. One guy that was a football player, but he was really big into photography.

[Assistant] But you were not from the same place, you were from all over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a national organization of physical education and recreation people. And at the university, we all were student members, so we would get the monthly magazine.

[Assistant] But then you all joined as a group or they just did the recruiting?

[User] They did. They did the recruiting, but the group, mostly my group was. There was only one other guy in the group that played basketball in college, but the other guys were boxers. There was a two, there were twins. One was in the Olympics with Muhammad Ali and the other one was boxing the Pan Am games. There was an Olympic rower. He was an alternate on the rowing team. There were swimmers. Track and field. One guy that was a football player, but he was really big into photography.

[Assistant] But you were not from the same place, you were from all over?

[User] All over the country, yeah. The oldest one was that guy, an older guy. He had his doctorate in physical education. Our Peace Corps coordinator or our leader, Eliseo Carrasco. He was a football coach out of California, but he spoke fluent Spanish. And so he was the contact person for all of us. And he went through training with us and then went to Colombia and was stationed in Bogota. So he coordinated all the activities.

[Assistant] So you applied. You got a letter saying, come to training in Colombia or how did that work? How long did it take to hear back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did. They did the recruiting, but the group, mostly my group was. There was only one other guy in the group that played basketball in college, but the other guys were boxers. There was a two, there were twins. One was in the Olympics with Muhammad Ali and the other one was boxing the Pan Am games. There was an Olympic rower. He was an alternate on the rowing team. There were swimmers. Track and field. One guy that was a football player, but he was really big into photography.

[Assistant] But you were not from the same place, you were from all over?

[User] All over the country, yeah. The oldest one was that guy, an older guy. He had his doctorate in physical education. Our Peace Corps coordinator or our leader, Eliseo Carrasco. He was a football coach out of California, but he spoke fluent Spanish. And so he was the contact person for all of us. And he went through training with us and then went to Colombia and was stationed in Bogota. So he coordinated all the activities.

[Assistant] So you applied. You got a letter saying, come to training in Colombia or how did that work? How long did it take to hear back?

[User] Yeah. It happened I had to go to summer school to finish up to get my degree. And because I played ball, I missed a couple of classes, and so I had to pick it up at summer school. And I graduated in July because we were on a quarter system at Denver. And when I went home, I got the letter. Because of course, I didn't know what I was going to do. And I just. Training didn't start until late October, I guess, or November. And so I had a whole bunch of time to find out what the heck is going on. So I picked up some odd jobs and worked.

[Assistant] And what did your friends think about all of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All over the country, yeah. The oldest one was that guy, an older guy. He had his doctorate in physical education. Our Peace Corps coordinator or our leader, Eliseo Carrasco. He was a football coach out of California, but he spoke fluent Spanish. And so he was the contact person for all of us. And he went through training with us and then went to Colombia and was stationed in Bogota. So he coordinated all the activities.

[Assistant] So you applied. You got a letter saying, come to training in Colombia or how did that work? How long did it take to hear back?

[User] Yeah. It happened I had to go to summer school to finish up to get my degree. And because I played ball, I missed a couple of classes, and so I had to pick it up at summer school. And I graduated in July because we were on a quarter system at Denver. And when I went home, I got the letter. Because of course, I didn't know what I was going to do. And I just. Training didn't start until late October, I guess, or November. And so I had a whole bunch of time to find out what the heck is going on. So I picked up some odd jobs and worked.

[Assistant] And what did your friends think about all of this?

[User] You know, it was kind of interesting. They really had no idea about the Peace Corps at that time. I mean, they had heard about it, but it wasn't a thing. The interesting part was when I came home, nobody wanted to know about what I did in the Peace Corps. I mean, I, like I tell Kay, we were social misfits. That's why we got married, because nobody cared what we did.

[Assistant] When you came back, nobody wanted to hear it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It happened I had to go to summer school to finish up to get my degree. And because I played ball, I missed a couple of classes, and so I had to pick it up at summer school. And I graduated in July because we were on a quarter system at Denver. And when I went home, I got the letter. Because of course, I didn't know what I was going to do. And I just. Training didn't start until late October, I guess, or November. And so I had a whole bunch of time to find out what the heck is going on. So I picked up some odd jobs and worked.

[Assistant] And what did your friends think about all of this?

[User] You know, it was kind of interesting. They really had no idea about the Peace Corps at that time. I mean, they had heard about it, but it wasn't a thing. The interesting part was when I came home, nobody wanted to know about what I did in the Peace Corps. I mean, I, like I tell Kay, we were social misfits. That's why we got married, because nobody cared what we did.

[Assistant] When you came back, nobody wanted to hear it?

[User] Nah, it was.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it was kind of interesting. They really had no idea about the Peace Corps at that time. I mean, they had heard about it, but it wasn't a thing. The interesting part was when I came home, nobody wanted to know about what I did in the Peace Corps. I mean, I, like I tell Kay, we were social misfits. That's why we got married, because nobody cared what we did.

[Assistant] When you came back, nobody wanted to hear it?

[User] Nah, it was.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?

[User] I don't know. I never really thought too much about it. I just say, gee, this is, you know, all I wanted to talk about is what they did and what we did in high school and I wasn't. I had gone beyond that and they were still.

[Assistant] They didn't care about the outside world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nah, it was.

[Assistant] Why do you think that is?

[User] I don't know. I never really thought too much about it. I just say, gee, this is, you know, all I wanted to talk about is what they did and what we did in high school and I wasn't. I had gone beyond that and they were still.

[Assistant] They didn't care about the outside world.

[User] Right. I mean, because Norwood, it's a small, small town. I mean, everybody knows everybody and.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's just talk about. They invited you, where was your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I never really thought too much about it. I just say, gee, this is, you know, all I wanted to talk about is what they did and what we did in high school and I wasn't. I had gone beyond that and they were still.

[Assistant] They didn't care about the outside world.

[User] Right. I mean, because Norwood, it's a small, small town. I mean, everybody knows everybody and.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's just talk about. They invited you, where was your training?

[User] El Paso, Texas. It was the University of Texas Western. And we, uh, what was kind of interesting. We were with physical education group and the other half of the group was English teachers. They were teaching English as a second language. And my group, you know, the physical education was all guys. The women were in the, it was a mixture of men and women in the English speaking group. But we trained together in El Paso. And nobody on the faculty or any of the training that we had, had been to Colombia. They all read about it, but they had not been to Colombia. But the training was really good. The Spanish labs and everything else were really good. And our group, we went through different program on soccer because that was the most popular sport in Colombia at that time. And it still is. So we had to learn about soccer because most of us had no knowledge of soccer at all.

[Assistant] And what was your cultural training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I mean, because Norwood, it's a small, small town. I mean, everybody knows everybody and.

[Assistant] Ok, so let's just talk about. They invited you, where was your training?

[User] El Paso, Texas. It was the University of Texas Western. And we, uh, what was kind of interesting. We were with physical education group and the other half of the group was English teachers. They were teaching English as a second language. And my group, you know, the physical education was all guys. The women were in the, it was a mixture of men and women in the English speaking group. But we trained together in El Paso. And nobody on the faculty or any of the training that we had, had been to Colombia. They all read about it, but they had not been to Colombia. But the training was really good. The Spanish labs and everything else were really good. And our group, we went through different program on soccer because that was the most popular sport in Colombia at that time. And it still is. So we had to learn about soccer because most of us had no knowledge of soccer at all.

[Assistant] And what was your cultural training like?

[User] It was kind of unusual because nobody had been there. You know, they had met, they had known Colombians and stuff like that, but nobody had actually been to Colombia. So I didn't think that was a very it was a very strong part of the program.

[Assistant] Well, was it all classroom based or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] El Paso, Texas. It was the University of Texas Western. And we, uh, what was kind of interesting. We were with physical education group and the other half of the group was English teachers. They were teaching English as a second language. And my group, you know, the physical education was all guys. The women were in the, it was a mixture of men and women in the English speaking group. But we trained together in El Paso. And nobody on the faculty or any of the training that we had, had been to Colombia. They all read about it, but they had not been to Colombia. But the training was really good. The Spanish labs and everything else were really good. And our group, we went through different program on soccer because that was the most popular sport in Colombia at that time. And it still is. So we had to learn about soccer because most of us had no knowledge of soccer at all.

[Assistant] And what was your cultural training like?

[User] It was kind of unusual because nobody had been there. You know, they had met, they had known Colombians and stuff like that, but nobody had actually been to Colombia. So I didn't think that was a very it was a very strong part of the program.

[Assistant] Well, was it all classroom based or?

[User] Yes, it was lecture, classroom.

[Assistant] Did you work in a Hispanic neighborhood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was kind of unusual because nobody had been there. You know, they had met, they had known Colombians and stuff like that, but nobody had actually been to Colombia. So I didn't think that was a very it was a very strong part of the program.

[Assistant] Well, was it all classroom based or?

[User] Yes, it was lecture, classroom.

[Assistant] Did you work in a Hispanic neighborhood?

[User]
No, no. We were encouraged to go over to Juarez and practice our Spanish. But no.

Because at that time, you could just walk across the border and go over to Juarez. But it was a Spanish, the labs and the classes, a lot of the classes were done in Spanish to get us acclimated. And then we went. We actually, at the end of training because it was in December, it was middle of December and we could go home for Christmas. And they wanted us. They asked the physical education group, actually the English group too, they voted down to go to Puerto Rico. For Outward Bound training. All the physical education people were going. So the day after Christmas, we had to get on the plane and go to Puerto Rico. And the English group decided they would stay over because we weren't doing Bogota till middle of January. And so they decided they would stay home for that period of time, whereas the physical education got, we're going. And that was really a fantastic experience.

[Assistant] What was it like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was lecture, classroom.

[Assistant] Did you work in a Hispanic neighborhood?

[User]
No, no. We were encouraged to go over to Juarez and practice our Spanish. But no.

Because at that time, you could just walk across the border and go over to Juarez. But it was a Spanish, the labs and the classes, a lot of the classes were done in Spanish to get us acclimated. And then we went. We actually, at the end of training because it was in December, it was middle of December and we could go home for Christmas. And they wanted us. They asked the physical education group, actually the English group too, they voted down to go to Puerto Rico. For Outward Bound training. All the physical education people were going. So the day after Christmas, we had to get on the plane and go to Puerto Rico. And the English group decided they would stay over because we weren't doing Bogota till middle of January. And so they decided they would stay home for that period of time, whereas the physical education got, we're going. And that was really a fantastic experience.

[Assistant] What was it like?

[User] Well, it was a camp in the rainforest out in Arecibo, and they had a swimming pool there and they had an Outward Bound training program where there were obstacle courses and where they, like, take you out and leave you in the. You had to, taught you how to build a lean-to out of banana leaves and eat snails. And we had a, one of the exercises was there was four of us on the team and we were given a compass and a map. And they said, here's where you are now, in three days we're going to pick you up at this point. Well, one of my guys in my group was an Eagle Scout, so he.

[Assistant] He knew what he was doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He knew what he's doing. And we pushed like heck. So instead of three days, we got there in two days. They were camped outside this little village and the police chief comes out and says, what are you guys doing here? And we say, well, you know, we're waiting for a ride back to the Peace Corps camp. And so they invited us into town and that was an excuse to have a big party. And you know, I tell people, I mean, being a Peace Corps volunteer is like being a rock star. Everybody knows who you are, where you are, what you had for breakfast and what you're doing. And so I mean, it's, uh.

[Assistant] So is it a good bonding experience for everybody?

[User] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And one of the interesting things happened. We had a visit by Harry Belafonte, who was on the Peace Corps council at the time, and they were doing a show in town, the capital city, I can't think of it.

[Assistant] San Juan?

[User] San Juan, yeah. They were doing a show and he was with Carol Burnett and Robert Goulet, and they came out to the camp. And because they were still the camp was still being constructed and there was we lived in tents, but the tents were on wood platforms and stuff with bunks. And so one of the tents was under construction and it was still just a platform. So they get up and Harry, you know, got up and sang a few songs, answered questions and stuff, was really a great guy. And Carol Lawrence was unreal. She went through the obstacle course where you had to climb nets and swing on ropes, and she went through it like nothing. And she says, I want to do that again. Because she was a dancer and she was, you know, she was very strong upper body and could do a lot of the exercises through the course. So that was a. Robert Goulet, he was kind of a jerky guy. He, well, I don't have my music. I can't do it. You know, he didn't.

[Assistant] Not a strong guy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And one of the interesting things happened. We had a visit by Harry Belafonte, who was on the Peace Corps council at the time, and they were doing a show in town, the capital city, I can't think of it.

[Assistant] San Juan?

[User] San Juan, yeah. They were doing a show and he was with Carol Burnett and Robert Goulet, and they came out to the camp. And because they were still the camp was still being constructed and there was we lived in tents, but the tents were on wood platforms and stuff with bunks. And so one of the tents was under construction and it was still just a platform. So they get up and Harry, you know, got up and sang a few songs, answered questions and stuff, was really a great guy. And Carol Lawrence was unreal. She went through the obstacle course where you had to climb nets and swing on ropes, and she went through it like nothing. And she says, I want to do that again. Because she was a dancer and she was, you know, she was very strong upper body and could do a lot of the exercises through the course. So that was a. Robert Goulet, he was kind of a jerky guy. He, well, I don't have my music. I can't do it. You know, he didn't.

[Assistant] Not a strong guy.

[User] No, no. He was just, he was along for the ride. I mean, but the I was very impressed with Carol Lawrence. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you finished training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] San Juan, yeah. They were doing a show and he was with Carol Burnett and Robert Goulet, and they came out to the camp. And because they were still the camp was still being constructed and there was we lived in tents, but the tents were on wood platforms and stuff with bunks. And so one of the tents was under construction and it was still just a platform. So they get up and Harry, you know, got up and sang a few songs, answered questions and stuff, was really a great guy. And Carol Lawrence was unreal. She went through the obstacle course where you had to climb nets and swing on ropes, and she went through it like nothing. And she says, I want to do that again. Because she was a dancer and she was, you know, she was very strong upper body and could do a lot of the exercises through the course. So that was a. Robert Goulet, he was kind of a jerky guy. He, well, I don't have my music. I can't do it. You know, he didn't.

[Assistant] Not a strong guy.

[User] No, no. He was just, he was along for the ride. I mean, but the I was very impressed with Carol Lawrence. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you finished training?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So I guess, what happened after Puerto Rico? Where did you go? Did you go back for more training or did you go straight overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. He was just, he was along for the ride. I mean, but the I was very impressed with Carol Lawrence. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you finished training?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So I guess, what happened after Puerto Rico? Where did you go? Did you go back for more training or did you go straight overseas?

[User] No, we went directly to Colombia. But in training, everything with the group, everybody wanted to know what the record was for this particular exercise. You had to swim. We had drown proofing. And you had to swim underwater the length of the pool and come back. You didn't have to come all the way back, but you know, that was one of the exercises. Well, we have one guy. He goes down, he comes back up, he goes down again and he's on his way back. They jump in to get him. He had, you know, he was, you know, oxygen debt, whatever. They had to bring him up because he was going to drown. But we had all kinds of crazy things happen to us, but it was great. Rappelling off the dam, taught us how to rappel off this large dam that is there. And it was good.

[Assistant] Perfect for a physical ed group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So I guess, what happened after Puerto Rico? Where did you go? Did you go back for more training or did you go straight overseas?

[User] No, we went directly to Colombia. But in training, everything with the group, everybody wanted to know what the record was for this particular exercise. You had to swim. We had drown proofing. And you had to swim underwater the length of the pool and come back. You didn't have to come all the way back, but you know, that was one of the exercises. Well, we have one guy. He goes down, he comes back up, he goes down again and he's on his way back. They jump in to get him. He had, you know, he was, you know, oxygen debt, whatever. They had to bring him up because he was going to drown. But we had all kinds of crazy things happen to us, but it was great. Rappelling off the dam, taught us how to rappel off this large dam that is there. And it was good.

[Assistant] Perfect for a physical ed group.

[User] Oh, our physical education group, we just ate it up.

[Assistant] You liked that. OK. So you flew from Puerto Rico to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we went directly to Colombia. But in training, everything with the group, everybody wanted to know what the record was for this particular exercise. You had to swim. We had drown proofing. And you had to swim underwater the length of the pool and come back. You didn't have to come all the way back, but you know, that was one of the exercises. Well, we have one guy. He goes down, he comes back up, he goes down again and he's on his way back. They jump in to get him. He had, you know, he was, you know, oxygen debt, whatever. They had to bring him up because he was going to drown. But we had all kinds of crazy things happen to us, but it was great. Rappelling off the dam, taught us how to rappel off this large dam that is there. And it was good.

[Assistant] Perfect for a physical ed group.

[User] Oh, our physical education group, we just ate it up.

[Assistant] You liked that. OK. So you flew from Puerto Rico to?

[User] Directly to Bogota.

[Assistant] And what happened when you got to Bogota?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, our physical education group, we just ate it up.

[Assistant] You liked that. OK. So you flew from Puerto Rico to?

[User] Directly to Bogota.

[Assistant] And what happened when you got to Bogota?

[User] Well, we got put up in the hotel and we were had a kind of an orientation program there. The English group had now arrived and we met all together to get our assignments. And one of the things, kind of funny. We were invited to the ambassador's residence for a, you know, a reception. Well, the physical education guys, you know, they're all athletes. So they said, well, a reception, there's going to be food there. So they gave us money for food. Well, everybody just put the money in their pocket. So we go to the ambassador's, they bus us down to the ambassador's residence and, yep, there's food. We ate them out of house and home. The ambassador's wife was embarrassed.

[Assistant] There was no food left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Directly to Bogota.

[Assistant] And what happened when you got to Bogota?

[User] Well, we got put up in the hotel and we were had a kind of an orientation program there. The English group had now arrived and we met all together to get our assignments. And one of the things, kind of funny. We were invited to the ambassador's residence for a, you know, a reception. Well, the physical education guys, you know, they're all athletes. So they said, well, a reception, there's going to be food there. So they gave us money for food. Well, everybody just put the money in their pocket. So we go to the ambassador's, they bus us down to the ambassador's residence and, yep, there's food. We ate them out of house and home. The ambassador's wife was embarrassed.

[Assistant] There was no food left.

[User] I don't think they invited a Peace Corps group back, but it was, that was our induction into the, you know, the ambassador and the, what we call it, the civil service, you know, there. But anyway, she was really embarrassed by the whole fact that that they ran out of food.

[Assistant] Probably only had daughters and didn't know about young guys.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we got put up in the hotel and we were had a kind of an orientation program there. The English group had now arrived and we met all together to get our assignments. And one of the things, kind of funny. We were invited to the ambassador's residence for a, you know, a reception. Well, the physical education guys, you know, they're all athletes. So they said, well, a reception, there's going to be food there. So they gave us money for food. Well, everybody just put the money in their pocket. So we go to the ambassador's, they bus us down to the ambassador's residence and, yep, there's food. We ate them out of house and home. The ambassador's wife was embarrassed.

[Assistant] There was no food left.

[User] I don't think they invited a Peace Corps group back, but it was, that was our induction into the, you know, the ambassador and the, what we call it, the civil service, you know, there. But anyway, she was really embarrassed by the whole fact that that they ran out of food.

[Assistant] Probably only had daughters and didn't know about young guys.

[User] Yeah, apparently not. Apparently not.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think they invited a Peace Corps group back, but it was, that was our induction into the, you know, the ambassador and the, what we call it, the civil service, you know, there. But anyway, she was really embarrassed by the whole fact that that they ran out of food.

[Assistant] Probably only had daughters and didn't know about young guys.

[User] Yeah, apparently not. Apparently not.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to Medellin, the Universidad de Antioquia, and I found out later that they, when they were looking for placing people, the head of the English department, John. Oh, I can't remember his last name, though. But anyway, he was married to a Peruvian gal and he was head of the English department. And so they were looking for English teachers to teach a, you know, English as a second language at the university. So he's going to the face book and he sees a Kevin Dixon played baseball at the University of Denver, and he says, oh, we can use him in the physical education. He was the head coach of a local baseball team that played in the league, which was made up of Americans that were working in Medellin, and it was sponsored by Coca-Cola. And so he alerted the physical education department that this guy was available, and they should get them. Anyway, that's how I ended up there and playing baseball for Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] With other Americans, the whole team were Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, apparently not. Apparently not.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where were you assigned?

[User] I was assigned to Medellin, the Universidad de Antioquia, and I found out later that they, when they were looking for placing people, the head of the English department, John. Oh, I can't remember his last name, though. But anyway, he was married to a Peruvian gal and he was head of the English department. And so they were looking for English teachers to teach a, you know, English as a second language at the university. So he's going to the face book and he sees a Kevin Dixon played baseball at the University of Denver, and he says, oh, we can use him in the physical education. He was the head coach of a local baseball team that played in the league, which was made up of Americans that were working in Medellin, and it was sponsored by Coca-Cola. And so he alerted the physical education department that this guy was available, and they should get them. Anyway, that's how I ended up there and playing baseball for Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] With other Americans, the whole team were Americans?

[User]
Yes. And the thing is in training, nobody told us that they played baseball in Colombia. They said, yeah, there was a little baseball on the coast, but not in yet here.

And you know, I didn't bring any baseball stuff. I didn't have any spikes and didn't have my glove. So there was a fellow that worked for Kellogg's, and he traveled around South America, so he got left handed. So he picked up a left handed glove and got some spikes and I'm ready to go.

[Assistant] So who did you play? Did you play other Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was assigned to Medellin, the Universidad de Antioquia, and I found out later that they, when they were looking for placing people, the head of the English department, John. Oh, I can't remember his last name, though. But anyway, he was married to a Peruvian gal and he was head of the English department. And so they were looking for English teachers to teach a, you know, English as a second language at the university. So he's going to the face book and he sees a Kevin Dixon played baseball at the University of Denver, and he says, oh, we can use him in the physical education. He was the head coach of a local baseball team that played in the league, which was made up of Americans that were working in Medellin, and it was sponsored by Coca-Cola. And so he alerted the physical education department that this guy was available, and they should get them. Anyway, that's how I ended up there and playing baseball for Coca- Cola.

[Assistant] With other Americans, the whole team were Americans?

[User]
Yes. And the thing is in training, nobody told us that they played baseball in Colombia. They said, yeah, there was a little baseball on the coast, but not in yet here.

And you know, I didn't bring any baseball stuff. I didn't have any spikes and didn't have my glove. So there was a fellow that worked for Kellogg's, and he traveled around South America, so he got left handed. So he picked up a left handed glove and got some spikes and I'm ready to go.

[Assistant] So who did you play? Did you play other Americans?

[User] No, we played other Colombian teams. Universidad de Antioquia had a baseball team. And by, let's see, below the Viana, there were four or five. It was a league of six teams. Oh, the military had a team of cuatro beguile. And most of those guys were custodians. They had come in the interior from the, you know, they were in the military. So yeah, we.

[Assistant] How did they all learn baseball, was it taught in school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. And the thing is in training, nobody told us that they played baseball in Colombia. They said, yeah, there was a little baseball on the coast, but not in yet here.

And you know, I didn't bring any baseball stuff. I didn't have any spikes and didn't have my glove. So there was a fellow that worked for Kellogg's, and he traveled around South America, so he got left handed. So he picked up a left handed glove and got some spikes and I'm ready to go.

[Assistant] So who did you play? Did you play other Americans?

[User] No, we played other Colombian teams. Universidad de Antioquia had a baseball team. And by, let's see, below the Viana, there were four or five. It was a league of six teams. Oh, the military had a team of cuatro beguile. And most of those guys were custodians. They had come in the interior from the, you know, they were in the military. So yeah, we.

[Assistant] How did they all learn baseball, was it taught in school?

[User] They had already played somewhere else before. But because the gringos were playing, they would have two or three thousand people would show up for the game on Sunday morning. And they would bet on what the next pitch was going to be, a ball or a strike, or it was going to be hit in the air or on the ground and by that they were all drunk as skunks. Then they would go across the street to the football stadium, you know, the soccer stadium, because Medellin had two professional soccer teams. The Millonarios and oh shucks, I can't think of the other. The Nacional. Yeah, Nacional and Millonarios. And they played every week. It was going to be a soccer game so they would go from the baseball game over to the soccer stadium. And the soccer stadium was huge. It was about 100,000 people and people come in from the campo all over the place for this thing. It was a big social event.

[Assistant] So this was a big part of your Peace Corps experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we played other Colombian teams. Universidad de Antioquia had a baseball team. And by, let's see, below the Viana, there were four or five. It was a league of six teams. Oh, the military had a team of cuatro beguile. And most of those guys were custodians. They had come in the interior from the, you know, they were in the military. So yeah, we.

[Assistant] How did they all learn baseball, was it taught in school?

[User] They had already played somewhere else before. But because the gringos were playing, they would have two or three thousand people would show up for the game on Sunday morning. And they would bet on what the next pitch was going to be, a ball or a strike, or it was going to be hit in the air or on the ground and by that they were all drunk as skunks. Then they would go across the street to the football stadium, you know, the soccer stadium, because Medellin had two professional soccer teams. The Millonarios and oh shucks, I can't think of the other. The Nacional. Yeah, Nacional and Millonarios. And they played every week. It was going to be a soccer game so they would go from the baseball game over to the soccer stadium. And the soccer stadium was huge. It was about 100,000 people and people come in from the campo all over the place for this thing. It was a big social event.

[Assistant] So this was a big part of your Peace Corps experience.

[User] Yes, that I love to go to the bullfights too. They were fun.

[Assistant] So what did you do as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that I love to go to the bullfights too. They were fun.

[Assistant] So what did you do as a volunteer?

[User]
OK. We helped set up the physical education department, and basically the department at the time was basically the soccer and track and field, gymnastics, stunts and tumbling, that kind of thing. Team sports were not, except for the soccer. The popular sport in Colombia at that time was bicycle races. They had road or bicycle races, you know, they had a metrodome, and then they would have the cross-country type of races, which attracted a lot of people. But basketball was not a very popular. It was played, but it was marginal. My counterpart at the university was a fellow by the name of Edison Christopher. And he was on the national team, basketball team, and he was from the San Andrés, the island of San Andrés, which was given to Colombia by Queen Victoria. So he spoke English with a British accent.

And he also was, you know, huge black fellow. He was about 6'6", real big guy. But he was a very good basketball player, a very talented guy. And he also played baseball for the university team, which I didn't play for. But he got me involved playing ball all over the city for his teams and stuff and coaching. And it worked, worked out very well. We conducted physical education classes at the university. They had a school that they had teacher training with. And I worked primarily with those teachers and expanding the curriculum and then setting up programs.

[Assistant] You did that for two years?

[User] No, I did it for one year.

[Assistant] What did you do the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I had. It was just an extension of my athletic scholarship, really. It was fun. I met a lot of interesting people. And my counterpart, Edison, was really pivotal because he introduced me to, you know, everybody in Medellin that was anybody. I mean, it was. And because at the baseball team, the American consulate played second base. I could walk into the consulate office and, oh, hey. They'd rush me right in. Because the baseball team was kind of interesting. The catcher was Chandler and the first baseman was John. And then the American consulate played second. There was a shortstop was a guy that was logging oil wells. And the third baseman was the Rice Krispie salesman of South America. The outfield was other Peace Corps volunteers and one was a banker, the banker of the local bank. So, I mean.

[Assistant] So not your traditional Peace Corps experience.

[User] Not, hey, if we were having a Peace Corps party, they'd say, Kevin, we need some Coca-Cola. So I could call up to Coca-Cola, we need five or six cases of Coca-Cola. I never got a bill. But the main drink in Colombia, it was rum and coke. I never developed a taste for it but.

[Assistant] So you traveled all around the country? You were based in Medellin the whole time?

[User] Yes, I've been in Bucaramanga, Cartagena, Barranquilla. What's it? Popayan. And I also travel for the university basketball team, too. So I mean, I got to see.

[Assistant] So you had your professional career, just in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not, hey, if we were having a Peace Corps party, they'd say, Kevin, we need some Coca-Cola. So I could call up to Coca-Cola, we need five or six cases of Coca-Cola. I never got a bill. But the main drink in Colombia, it was rum and coke. I never developed a taste for it but.

[Assistant] So you traveled all around the country? You were based in Medellin the whole time?

[User] Yes, I've been in Bucaramanga, Cartagena, Barranquilla. What's it? Popayan. And I also travel for the university basketball team, too. So I mean, I got to see.

[Assistant] So you had your professional career, just in Colombia?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Have you maintained contact with any of these people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I've been in Bucaramanga, Cartagena, Barranquilla. What's it? Popayan. And I also travel for the university basketball team, too. So I mean, I got to see.

[Assistant] So you had your professional career, just in Colombia?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Have you maintained contact with any of these people?

[User] Well, kind of, but we became partners in the Americas. I was working as superintendent recreation in Norwood.

[Assistant] After you came back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was up, I believe he was here for about a month.

[Assistant] Oh, a short term.

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Still in touch with him?

[User] Well, he died last year. I regret not, you know, connecting with him. But yeah, he's got a couple sons, of course, Colombians have large families. He's got a couple. One played in basketball in Texas, at a school in Texas. And there's a couple still teaching at the University of Antioquia. I mean, he's one.

[Assistant] So you did stay in touch with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he died last year. I regret not, you know, connecting with him. But yeah, he's got a couple sons, of course, Colombians have large families. He's got a couple. One played in basketball in Texas, at a school in Texas. And there's a couple still teaching at the University of Antioquia. I mean, he's one.

[Assistant] So you did stay in touch with?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah, we had Christmas cards and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did you stay in touch with the Peace Corps volunteers as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah, we had Christmas cards and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Did you stay in touch with the Peace Corps volunteers as well?

[User] That's right. We used to have reunions every once in a while, but we just, you know, everyone's well, get e-mails and stuff. We just, you know, who's died and that type of thing. But yeah, yeah, that's about the extent of it now.

[Assistant] So what was the impact for your career from all of this? It sounds like you came back and worked in recreation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. We had beauty parlor. We had a video library. We had T-ball teams, we had swimming teams, we had softball leagues for the adult men and we had trips for the women into the souq.

[Assistant] So, let me ask you, we skipped over this. You keep talking about your wife. How did you meet your wife?

[User] Oh, I tell you, you got to read the book.

[Assistant] Well, tell me. So it's part of this interview.

[User] I'll give you my elevator version.

[Assistant] Yes, the short version.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll give you my elevator version.

[Assistant] Yes, the short version.

[User] I got a call, at the university Antioquia, I got a call one day that the Peace Corps had requested that they needed some help setting up sports programs out in Barrio Antioquia. So I went to my boss. I'm going to go out to Barrio Antioquia. Oh no, you're not going out there. I had met volunteers that worked out there. I had met Kay, probably at a party I don't recall. But I had, you know, Peace Corps volunteers are out there, so I says, I can't be there. You know, how bad could it be? So I went out to Barrio Antioquia and met with Kay and Jimenez and one of the male volunteers that was out there. Having a senior moment here. Anyway, he was on the baseball team, so, you know, I wasn't in unfamiliar territory. And when I went out there, they wanted to set up these programs because that was what they were doing in community development. I said, well, sure, we can do that. And that's what I did. I, you know, I would go out there part-time and help them with the programs. It turned out, you know, Barrio Antioquia was second largest red light district in South America. And I mean, I'm sure Kay told you about the story about how they how she ended up out there, the political ramifications.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was all. So I don't need to reiterate on that, but I like telling people I met my wife at a red light district and they look at you, oh, so they can't wait to meet her. You know, they think I married a Colombian. And so when she walks in, you know, she the blonde. And so they can't wait. Your husband said he met you at a red-light district and she gets all red. I said, well, it's true.

[Assistant] So did you get married in Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. So she's sitting there and you know, the food comes out of the kitchen. it gets the passed around, everybody helping. When she comes out, there's nothing on Kay's plate. You know, it's family style, you know, and she's really embarrassed. Yeah. So we all have to take stuff off our plate, put it back in. So then the ice cream comes out. Well, she gets a plate, so she thinks she's supposed to take something out of that and puts her there. She doesn't realize that's hers, because we used to get big portions of ice cream for dessert.

[Assistant] She made it through all of that.

[User] She made through. The thing is, she interviewed at the job and she talks to the guy. And, you know, I guess I know where they ask her about whether she's engaged or whatever. She said, no, she wants to come to Boston to work. Well, hey, I pick her up after the interview, show her around Boston, and I take her to Durgin-Park, which is a restaurant on the and it's family style where they just have long tables and they just sit everybody and you don't know who you're going to be sitting next to. You know, you just and it's old time. It's got the when they convert it over to from electricity, they get wires are just hanging around. I mean, it's kind of an interesting place. Anyway, who do we sit next to? The guy that interviewed her. So after lunch, she said, I'm never going to get that job now.

[Assistant] Small world.

[User] Yeah, small world.

[Assistant] So other than meeting your wife in the Peace Corps, what do you think the impact has been on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She made through. The thing is, she interviewed at the job and she talks to the guy. And, you know, I guess I know where they ask her about whether she's engaged or whatever. She said, no, she wants to come to Boston to work. Well, hey, I pick her up after the interview, show her around Boston, and I take her to Durgin-Park, which is a restaurant on the and it's family style where they just have long tables and they just sit everybody and you don't know who you're going to be sitting next to. You know, you just and it's old time. It's got the when they convert it over to from electricity, they get wires are just hanging around. I mean, it's kind of an interesting place. Anyway, who do we sit next to? The guy that interviewed her. So after lunch, she said, I'm never going to get that job now.

[Assistant] Small world.

[User] Yeah, small world.

[Assistant] So other than meeting your wife in the Peace Corps, what do you think the impact has been on your life?

[User] Quite a bit. You know, growing up in Massachusetts and you know, I traveled a lot when I played basketball at the University in Denver. I was never really exposed to poverty or, well, even like prostitution was legal in Colombia. You know, that was a whole different thing. I mean, a lot of the players that I coached were, you know, they really didn't have a lot of things. I mean, gee whiz, I mean, they basically just had the clothes on their backs. So, you know, even shoes were a problem. And I just had never, you know, even.

[Assistant] Been exposed to any of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, small world.

[Assistant] So other than meeting your wife in the Peace Corps, what do you think the impact has been on your life?

[User] Quite a bit. You know, growing up in Massachusetts and you know, I traveled a lot when I played basketball at the University in Denver. I was never really exposed to poverty or, well, even like prostitution was legal in Colombia. You know, that was a whole different thing. I mean, a lot of the players that I coached were, you know, they really didn't have a lot of things. I mean, gee whiz, I mean, they basically just had the clothes on their backs. So, you know, even shoes were a problem. And I just had never, you know, even.

[Assistant] Been exposed to any of that.

[User] No, no. And because once you left the urban areas and you went out into the countryside, I mean, I mean, they didn't have a heck of a lot. I mean, it was just subsistence living from, you know, hand to mouth.

[Assistant] So what did you take from all of that? But how has that changed your life? Has it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite a bit. You know, growing up in Massachusetts and you know, I traveled a lot when I played basketball at the University in Denver. I was never really exposed to poverty or, well, even like prostitution was legal in Colombia. You know, that was a whole different thing. I mean, a lot of the players that I coached were, you know, they really didn't have a lot of things. I mean, gee whiz, I mean, they basically just had the clothes on their backs. So, you know, even shoes were a problem. And I just had never, you know, even.

[Assistant] Been exposed to any of that.

[User] No, no. And because once you left the urban areas and you went out into the countryside, I mean, I mean, they didn't have a heck of a lot. I mean, it was just subsistence living from, you know, hand to mouth.

[Assistant] So what did you take from all of that? But how has that changed your life? Has it?

[User] Yes, it does. I mean, I try to impress upon my kids how lucky we are to be, you know, Americans. I mean, when you come back to the United States after being in the Peace Corps, you know you, you realize how really lucky we are. I mean, it's just, you know, I don't, I'm not a real big flag waver. But boy, I tell you, it made a big impression.

[Assistant] Yeah. What do you think the impact of your physical education program, your activities in particular, were? In all the communities in which you worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he's training to be a professional baseball player. I said, look, you've got to learn to speak English because when you go to the United States, if you don't speak English, you're going to be taken advantage of. So you better, you know, work on that as much as you're working on your baseball skills. But this is apparently a training program that is about seven or eight cities in Colombia that have these programs that are sponsored by Major League Baseball.

[Assistant] And you were there at the beginning, getting a lot of that started.

[User] Yeah. Well, I don't know if that was a definite outgrowth, but it's a whole, it's a whole different approach to things. There are a number of Colombians playing Major League Baseball today. Might be five or six, but there's a bunch of them in the minor leagues, I guess.

[Assistant] Hey, that's an impact.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I guess the third goal of Peace Corps is bringing the world back to the United States. You talked about the sister program when you were in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I don't know if that was a definite outgrowth, but it's a whole, it's a whole different approach to things. There are a number of Colombians playing Major League Baseball today. Might be five or six, but there's a bunch of them in the minor leagues, I guess.

[Assistant] Hey, that's an impact.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I guess the third goal of Peace Corps is bringing the world back to the United States. You talked about the sister program when you were in.

[User] Yeah, Partners of the Americas.

[Assistant] Partners of the Americas, when you were in Massachusetts. Have you been involved in other activities as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I guess the third goal of Peace Corps is bringing the world back to the United States. You talked about the sister program when you were in.

[User] Yeah, Partners of the Americas.

[Assistant] Partners of the Americas, when you were in Massachusetts. Have you been involved in other activities as well?

[User]
Mostly just when we were in Massachusetts, we were always invited to the Kennedy, any time there was something going on at the Kennedy Museum there, we would be invited. It's a different aspect when you go out to the state of Washington, it's a different, you know, they just feel so isolated out there. They don't have no connection with Washington, D.C. There's a Peace Corps group in Spokane that we're active in, but it's mostly old people. There aren't any young people in it. I mean, there's, and I'm in a stamp club, the same thing. I mean, people younger are not interested in collecting stamps, which I started when I was in Colombia.

There was a stamp dealer off campus and we never worked a full week. I mean, the students were on strike or there was some sort of holiday or whatever so.

[Assistant] You had time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Partners of the Americas.

[Assistant] Partners of the Americas, when you were in Massachusetts. Have you been involved in other activities as well?

[User]
Mostly just when we were in Massachusetts, we were always invited to the Kennedy, any time there was something going on at the Kennedy Museum there, we would be invited. It's a different aspect when you go out to the state of Washington, it's a different, you know, they just feel so isolated out there. They don't have no connection with Washington, D.C. There's a Peace Corps group in Spokane that we're active in, but it's mostly old people. There aren't any young people in it. I mean, there's, and I'm in a stamp club, the same thing. I mean, people younger are not interested in collecting stamps, which I started when I was in Colombia.

There was a stamp dealer off campus and we never worked a full week. I mean, the students were on strike or there was some sort of holiday or whatever so.

[Assistant] You had time.

[User] Yeah, I had time on my hands. So it was a guy off the campus that sold leather goods and had stamps, Colombian stamps. So I've got to kind of a nice collection of Colombian stamps that I got at that time. But he was a Jewish fellow. He had the tattoo, you know, because there were a lot.

[Assistant] From the concentration camps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Mostly just when we were in Massachusetts, we were always invited to the Kennedy, any time there was something going on at the Kennedy Museum there, we would be invited. It's a different aspect when you go out to the state of Washington, it's a different, you know, they just feel so isolated out there. They don't have no connection with Washington, D.C. There's a Peace Corps group in Spokane that we're active in, but it's mostly old people. There aren't any young people in it. I mean, there's, and I'm in a stamp club, the same thing. I mean, people younger are not interested in collecting stamps, which I started when I was in Colombia.

There was a stamp dealer off campus and we never worked a full week. I mean, the students were on strike or there was some sort of holiday or whatever so.

[Assistant] You had time.

[User] Yeah, I had time on my hands. So it was a guy off the campus that sold leather goods and had stamps, Colombian stamps. So I've got to kind of a nice collection of Colombian stamps that I got at that time. But he was a Jewish fellow. He had the tattoo, you know, because there were a lot.

[Assistant] From the concentration camps.

[User] Yeah, there were a lot of Jewish immigrants in Colombia. German particularly too. Actually, they started the Avianca Airlines. But, you know, former German pilots, they started a. Because in Colombia, the three miles, you know, you couldn't, there weren't any roads going over the mountains. You had to go down to the coast, then go back up the valley to get anywhere. You know, a lot of the villages.

[Assistant] So they had flights.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had time on my hands. So it was a guy off the campus that sold leather goods and had stamps, Colombian stamps. So I've got to kind of a nice collection of Colombian stamps that I got at that time. But he was a Jewish fellow. He had the tattoo, you know, because there were a lot.

[Assistant] From the concentration camps.

[User] Yeah, there were a lot of Jewish immigrants in Colombia. German particularly too. Actually, they started the Avianca Airlines. But, you know, former German pilots, they started a. Because in Colombia, the three miles, you know, you couldn't, there weren't any roads going over the mountains. You had to go down to the coast, then go back up the valley to get anywhere. You know, a lot of the villages.

[Assistant] So they had flights.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Ok, well, I end each interview by asking whether there's something else that I should have asked about that you wanted to tell a story about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there were a lot of Jewish immigrants in Colombia. German particularly too. Actually, they started the Avianca Airlines. But, you know, former German pilots, they started a. Because in Colombia, the three miles, you know, you couldn't, there weren't any roads going over the mountains. You had to go down to the coast, then go back up the valley to get anywhere. You know, a lot of the villages.

[Assistant] So they had flights.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Ok, well, I end each interview by asking whether there's something else that I should have asked about that you wanted to tell a story about.

[User] I had two daughters that were returned volunteers.

[Assistant] Well, talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Ok, well, I end each interview by asking whether there's something else that I should have asked about that you wanted to tell a story about.

[User] I had two daughters that were returned volunteers.

[Assistant] Well, talk about.

[User]
Carol, she was in Nicaragua. We went down to visit her and I was very impressed with Nicaragua. And Kimberly was in Niger, in Africa. I can tell you, without a doubt, I never would have survived. I mean, she was living in a mud hut a couple hours outside of the capital city. We had to take a two-hour bush taxi out there and we stopped in the middle of nowhere. And where's the village? Oh, we got to walk another

half mile in. You know, we get there. And because we're the rock stars now and there's only one seat in the village and they insist that I have to sit in the seat. I kept trying to give it to Kay. They wouldn't. I had to sit. And they say to Kimberly, your parents must be hungry. So they sent one of the kids to go track down a chicken, grab one of the chickens. And by the time we leave, the chicken. Kimberly, she doesn't cook, and we go to her place and it's a mud hut. And it's got to, it's about half the size of this room, it's the front end. There's a fenced area around it. And it was a kid in the village whose job was to keep the goats out of her area. Anyway, he comes to the gate and we're sitting there talking, and Kimberly has something. She calls the kid in and she puts the kid behind him, and she's got the mirror and she's got to. He knows it's Kimberly in the mirror. He has no clue who the other person in the mirror is. I just was blown away. I said, this is unreal.

[Assistant] And that was much more recent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had two daughters that were returned volunteers.

[Assistant] Well, talk about.

[User]
Carol, she was in Nicaragua. We went down to visit her and I was very impressed with Nicaragua. And Kimberly was in Niger, in Africa. I can tell you, without a doubt, I never would have survived. I mean, she was living in a mud hut a couple hours outside of the capital city. We had to take a two-hour bush taxi out there and we stopped in the middle of nowhere. And where's the village? Oh, we got to walk another

half mile in. You know, we get there. And because we're the rock stars now and there's only one seat in the village and they insist that I have to sit in the seat. I kept trying to give it to Kay. They wouldn't. I had to sit. And they say to Kimberly, your parents must be hungry. So they sent one of the kids to go track down a chicken, grab one of the chickens. And by the time we leave, the chicken. Kimberly, she doesn't cook, and we go to her place and it's a mud hut. And it's got to, it's about half the size of this room, it's the front end. There's a fenced area around it. And it was a kid in the village whose job was to keep the goats out of her area. Anyway, he comes to the gate and we're sitting there talking, and Kimberly has something. She calls the kid in and she puts the kid behind him, and she's got the mirror and she's got to. He knows it's Kimberly in the mirror. He has no clue who the other person in the mirror is. I just was blown away. I said, this is unreal.

[Assistant] And that was much more recent?

[User] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] We each have our different experiences, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Carol, she was in Nicaragua. We went down to visit her and I was very impressed with Nicaragua. And Kimberly was in Niger, in Africa. I can tell you, without a doubt, I never would have survived. I mean, she was living in a mud hut a couple hours outside of the capital city. We had to take a two-hour bush taxi out there and we stopped in the middle of nowhere. And where's the village? Oh, we got to walk another

half mile in. You know, we get there. And because we're the rock stars now and there's only one seat in the village and they insist that I have to sit in the seat. I kept trying to give it to Kay. They wouldn't. I had to sit. And they say to Kimberly, your parents must be hungry. So they sent one of the kids to go track down a chicken, grab one of the chickens. And by the time we leave, the chicken. Kimberly, she doesn't cook, and we go to her place and it's a mud hut. And it's got to, it's about half the size of this room, it's the front end. There's a fenced area around it. And it was a kid in the village whose job was to keep the goats out of her area. Anyway, he comes to the gate and we're sitting there talking, and Kimberly has something. She calls the kid in and she puts the kid behind him, and she's got the mirror and she's got to. He knows it's Kimberly in the mirror. He has no clue who the other person in the mirror is. I just was blown away. I said, this is unreal.

[Assistant] And that was much more recent?

[User] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] We each have our different experiences, right?

[User] I know. I know. I never would have made it in this Niger, I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, you made it through Outward Bound in Puerto Rico.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] We each have our different experiences, right?

[User] I know. I know. I never would have made it in this Niger, I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, you made it through Outward Bound in Puerto Rico.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you probably would have made it in Niger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. I know. I never would have made it in this Niger, I tell you.

[Assistant] Well, you made it through Outward Bound in Puerto Rico.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you probably would have made it in Niger.

[User] No, I'm convinced I never would have done it. I have so much respect and pride in my daughter that she could do that. That's incredible.

[Assistant] Well, there's another whole interview about how the experiences were different, but I don't think we'll do that right now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that Avro Arrow there [gestures], that was what I went to Canada to do. That was a very advanced plane, and I think if everything had been all right, I may have been a Canadian by now instead of an American; I don’t know. [Laughs] But there was a whole bunch of us that came down that used to be called Canadians. Not all really Canadians.

[Assistant] Were you grouped together, like the Germans were grouped together?

[User] Yes, they did that for a while. Most of us went and got our naturalization at the same time. For some reason it took me six years rather than five. I can’t understand why, but we got through that. No, I haven’t regretted the decision I made when I left Canada, the option of going back to England or coming on Space [Task Group], because this has been a real exciting time. It’s always been on the forward edge of something.\n\n I think Space Station—I liked the original one, the Space Station Freedom. It was pretty well advanced at the time, and I think McDonnell Douglas was doing a good job. It’s very interesting to me—you might like as a sideline—I became a contractor when I worked with McDonnell Douglas. I could see the other side of the story, how NASA puts the pressure on the contractors. I had to write a report, you know, the constant reporting in and all that kind of stuff, and making sure that we got good marks and all that kind of stuff. Many a time I thought, well, this is interesting. The things that I took for granted when I was with NASA for thirty years, the way the contractors have to respond to NASA are sometimes a pretty bad relationship, but not always. So we did pretty well. I did enjoy seeing it from the other side. Are you all contractors?

[Assistant] Yes, we are.

[User] Do you have reports to do?

[Assistant] She [Rebecca Wright] does. We don’t. We let her work on this.\n\n ROWLAND


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did that for a while. Most of us went and got our naturalization at the same time. For some reason it took me six years rather than five. I can’t understand why, but we got through that. No, I haven’t regretted the decision I made when I left Canada, the option of going back to England or coming on Space [Task Group], because this has been a real exciting time. It’s always been on the forward edge of something.\n\n I think Space Station—I liked the original one, the Space Station Freedom. It was pretty well advanced at the time, and I think McDonnell Douglas was doing a good job. It’s very interesting to me—you might like as a sideline—I became a contractor when I worked with McDonnell Douglas. I could see the other side of the story, how NASA puts the pressure on the contractors. I had to write a report, you know, the constant reporting in and all that kind of stuff, and making sure that we got good marks and all that kind of stuff. Many a time I thought, well, this is interesting. The things that I took for granted when I was with NASA for thirty years, the way the contractors have to respond to NASA are sometimes a pretty bad relationship, but not always. So we did pretty well. I did enjoy seeing it from the other side. Are you all contractors?

[Assistant] Yes, we are.

[User] Do you have reports to do?

[Assistant] She [Rebecca Wright] does. We don’t. We let her work on this.\n\n ROWLAND

[User]
This is the one I was thinking about. There’s a couple targets in there, but I don’t think—

It’s a model of that thing over there, that picture in National Geographic. It shows how the ceramic cloth—that’s the unique part of that thing. It’s a cloth bumper rather than a metallic bumper. It makes a big difference.\n\n You have more questions?

[Assistant] Yes, but I’m interested in hearing—your son wanted to add a quick—\n\n ROWLAND


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you have reports to do?

[Assistant] She [Rebecca Wright] does. We don’t. We let her work on this.\n\n ROWLAND

[User]
This is the one I was thinking about. There’s a couple targets in there, but I don’t think—

It’s a model of that thing over there, that picture in National Geographic. It shows how the ceramic cloth—that’s the unique part of that thing. It’s a cloth bumper rather than a metallic bumper. It makes a big difference.\n\n You have more questions?

[Assistant] Yes, but I’m interested in hearing—your son wanted to add a quick—\n\n ROWLAND

[User] Well, just a funny little side story. When he did his convention talk down in Galveston, my kids went along to see the display and all that kind of stuff. They were all kind of laughing when they saw the actual invention as it was set up there. They were kind of like, “Well, Granddad, we could have done this in the garage ourselves.” It looked like a few pieces of metal in a row there. Then they grew to understand that the invention happened to be the math that went behind how thick each piece had to be and how far apart everything had to be. They really didn’t catch on until the National Geographic thing, then all of a sudden they realized that he was okay.

[Assistant] Took a lot of work, yes, I’m sure.\n\n ROWLAND


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
This is the one I was thinking about. There’s a couple targets in there, but I don’t think—

It’s a model of that thing over there, that picture in National Geographic. It shows how the ceramic cloth—that’s the unique part of that thing. It’s a cloth bumper rather than a metallic bumper. It makes a big difference.\n\n You have more questions?

[Assistant] Yes, but I’m interested in hearing—your son wanted to add a quick—\n\n ROWLAND

[User] Well, just a funny little side story. When he did his convention talk down in Galveston, my kids went along to see the display and all that kind of stuff. They were all kind of laughing when they saw the actual invention as it was set up there. They were kind of like, “Well, Granddad, we could have done this in the garage ourselves.” It looked like a few pieces of metal in a row there. Then they grew to understand that the invention happened to be the math that went behind how thick each piece had to be and how far apart everything had to be. They really didn’t catch on until the National Geographic thing, then all of a sudden they realized that he was okay.

[Assistant] Took a lot of work, yes, I’m sure.\n\n ROWLAND

[User]
So now they argue about who got his brains. [Laughs]

Well, I was just fortunate that I was in on the beginning of it all and learned from ground zero, because nobody was offering courses in this stuff at the time.

[Assistant] Let me ask you about the Space Shuttle. Did the meteoroid field or orbital debris field change as a result of using this reusable spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was basically Langley. Langley, Marshall, and ourselves, and, yes, KSC, too. I think we worked pretty well. Let’s see. I think it was Langley that provided the aircraft that would fly through the plumes. So they were in a field in which we sort of—we owed them that. They had the means of detection and they could tell us what they found. Marshall was into what we called modeling the plume. They had a couple of people over there who were expert in that field. Our job, from the Manned Spacecraft Center point of view, was to ensure that we were funding the right things to look at. Then KSC would tell us about the bees and the orange groves and other things that could be harmed, manatees and stuff like that.\n\n So I guess it was a collaborative effect, because each one was doing their own thing. There was no competition in that sense, except that occasionally we would question the results, because if you’re going to spend money on it, you do that kind of stuff.\n\n The Tropospheric Project, mine was primarily, management of resources and things like that, and making sure that JSC’s concerns would meet with—see, our own engineering group over here didn’t want to be stopped by any of these things, so we were caught in the middle. But it was a very collaborative event.

[Assistant] Did it last for an extended period of time?

[User] The sense of time has disappeared, but you put a time frame on this and it’s interesting to me that I was there three years. It says here ’74 to ’78. Four years in that group. It lasted four years.

[Assistant] When you and your group moved from Ellington to Building 31, and you said the building was specially designed so you could use the gun. Did you have input on how that building needed to be designed?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share more about how that building was designed for your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The sense of time has disappeared, but you put a time frame on this and it’s interesting to me that I was there three years. It says here ’74 to ’78. Four years in that group. It lasted four years.

[Assistant] When you and your group moved from Ellington to Building 31, and you said the building was specially designed so you could use the gun. Did you have input on how that building needed to be designed?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you share more about how that building was designed for your work?

[User] The building was just a normal office building, but on the lab side, we had the experience from General Motors Defense Research Lab. They were firing some toxic stuff. If you fired cadmium or anything like that, it gives off a very poisonous gas, so you had to have these huge extractor fans. We didn’t know whether we were going to do anything toxic or not, but based on what we saw at General Motors in Santa Barbara, we decided we’d better have huge fans in the ceiling to exhaust any toxic gases we might have.\n\n We knew that there was an explosive risk on the gun and, therefore, nobody could be in that room when it was fired, so we had to have the control panels outside a concrete wall. So it was designed so that the gun would be remotely fired, everybody out of the way. The third thing they did was to ensure that if there was a massive explosion, that the roof would have some venting. So it was tailored in that sense to be a gun lab.\n\n I don’t know if you know 31; it’s at the far end of 31. It sort of lies across the back there. I don’t know what they’ve done with it now. So we did have those kind of inputs, mainly based on what we’d seen on the West Coast. They’d had the experience.

[Assistant] My last question is, could you tell us how you chose the peninsula of Canyon Lake to first do your observation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we needed clear skies and we couldn’t find anything in Houston. At that time, I thought to myself, “Well, it should be pretty dry and nice out there in Southwest Texas, wherever we are.” But we didn’t get too many bad nights, but we had some few bad nights.\n\n But the peninsula over there [gestures] was the [U.S. Army] Corps of Engineers, they were, I guess, working with the dam, and we could stow our equipment over there. It was just nothing like now. There were no houses. It was pitch black, and just ideal to sit on the hillside up there. We all had these recliners, deck chairs, and the recording van. So several of the people—two of those who just drove away from [the house]. They were students at [Texas State University] San Marcos [San Marcos, Texas] at the time—they would come out and help us spend the night looking for meteors.\n\n The machine was what was doing the tracking. It was taking a spectrograph of the incoming projectile or meteor, so we could analyze what it was made of.

[Assistant] How big was your group that would come out to observe?

[User] There was the lab technician, who drove the van with the thing on it. There was myself and one other guy. The three of us, and anybody who wanted to join in, like those two guys.

[Assistant] So you would just spend the night, one night?

[User] No, several nights.

[Assistant] And how often did you come out to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was the lab technician, who drove the van with the thing on it. There was myself and one other guy. The three of us, and anybody who wanted to join in, like those two guys.

[Assistant] So you would just spend the night, one night?

[User] No, several nights.

[Assistant] And how often did you come out to do that?

[User] Oh, maybe two or three times a year. You’ve probably heard of the meteor showers that we get. That was the best time to come, when there was a predicted shower, because then we’d have a chance of seeing more meteors. So we would come during that time. There still is over there, a motel on that side of the lake where we could spend—it was very cheap at that time. You could cook your own food and all that kind of stuff. There was one little grocery store where you could buy steaks and things like that. So we could spend several nights there. But it was a disappointment in the fact that it wasn’t always clear skies. You really had to go further west. But that’s when I got to know Canyon Lake.

[Assistant] And you chose to come back here to live.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, several nights.

[Assistant] And how often did you come out to do that?

[User] Oh, maybe two or three times a year. You’ve probably heard of the meteor showers that we get. That was the best time to come, when there was a predicted shower, because then we’d have a chance of seeing more meteors. So we would come during that time. There still is over there, a motel on that side of the lake where we could spend—it was very cheap at that time. You could cook your own food and all that kind of stuff. There was one little grocery store where you could buy steaks and things like that. So we could spend several nights there. But it was a disappointment in the fact that it wasn’t always clear skies. You really had to go further west. But that’s when I got to know Canyon Lake.

[Assistant] And you chose to come back here to live.

[User] Yes. After I joined McDonnell Douglas—apparently it happens to somebody who’s retired after a long time—I got a bad case of shingles. Anyway, I was recuperating here with some friends and we just decided that this was better than—it just seemed like it was right. The lake is pretty. I don’t do any fishing. I don’t do boating. I do nothing except sit and look at it. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
Sounds like a good pastime to me.

Do you think there’s anything else we need to cover that we haven’t gone over today, that we may have overlooked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. After I joined McDonnell Douglas—apparently it happens to somebody who’s retired after a long time—I got a bad case of shingles. Anyway, I was recuperating here with some friends and we just decided that this was better than—it just seemed like it was right. The lake is pretty. I don’t do any fishing. I don’t do boating. I do nothing except sit and look at it. [Laughter]

[Assistant]
Sounds like a good pastime to me.

Do you think there’s anything else we need to cover that we haven’t gone over today, that we may have overlooked?

[User] Did you get these dates and things from my bio?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And they don’t mention that I was Branch Chief there? Because that, to me, is an important part of my life over there. I’d like to see that included.

[Assistant] Yes, and that will be. We’ll send you a copy of the bio sheet that’s going online and that’s going to be archived.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you get these dates and things from my bio?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And they don’t mention that I was Branch Chief there? Because that, to me, is an important part of my life over there. I’d like to see that included.

[Assistant] Yes, and that will be. We’ll send you a copy of the bio sheet that’s going online and that’s going to be archived.

[User] The other thing that was significant was the fact of being the Subsystem Manager for Meteoroid Protection for Apollo. They have subsystem managers for all kinds of things, and it was one that definitely caused me to have to really keep on my toes, because I was responsible to them. It was not just fooling-around research. That, too, is a significant title that I had in there.\n\n Otherwise, I can’t think of anything else at the moment. Settling down in Texas was difficult at the beginning. I thought we were all going to go to [Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt] Maryland from Space Task Group originally, but we got down here and it took us several years to get acclimatized, but I think we enjoyed it; still do.

[Assistant] We very much enjoyed hearing your stories today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a good time.

[Assistant] Tell us about the name. You called yourselves the Thirty-Five New Guys. Who decided to come up with that and the T-shirt design?

[User] I have no idea. It was interesting to me that the military have a way of organizing themselves. I guess if you’re a POW [Prisoner of War] you’re supposed to know how to get organized. At our first Monday morning meeting Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck stood up and said, “After the meeting breaks up if the 35 of us could get together.” Okay. He stood up and he said, “If no one has any objections, I’ll sort of be the leader of our class.”\n\n Us nonmilitary folks were going, “Who are you, to just take over like that?” Again we were not going to say anything for fear of looking stupid, but apparently in the military the guy with the highest rank takes over as the leader so we learned that later on. What was your question?

[Assistant] I was asking about the Thirty-Five New Guys and who came up with the shirt.

[User] Somehow and I don’t even remember how it happened, we had to have a group name, or somebody felt like we ought to have a group name. I guess in the military it’s the freaking new guy, the FNG is the new guy that’s stupid and doesn’t know anything. We got to be the TFNG. It was a play on the military term for dumb people, or new people anyway. That’s how we got the name. We had our T-shirts, we had our mugs, and we had everything. We were the TFNGs. We referred to ourselves as the TFNGs. We referred to those other people as the old guys. They didn’t like that, the old guys or the TFNGs.

[Assistant] One of the things—as I was looking over your biosheet—I didn’t see it on there, but it was on some research that we had pulled. You had worked on the food system initially when you came. Were you working with Rita [M.] Rapp and some of the other people in that organization?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The little square plastic containers. You put the water in with the tea bag, and you let it brew for however long you want. Then they made a double-ended straw that had two of the connectors that went into the container. We would just squeeze out the tea from the brewed cup into the new empty cup, and then discard the connector and the old tea bag box, and put a straw in our decanted tea, Jeff and I called it, our tea ceremony. The food system people were excited about flying in space the way we were. Their food flew in space, and they wanted us to be happy with that food.\n\n A lot of people complained about the food but never tried the food. They just said it wasn’t good when they got there. They’d find out that some people need a lot of spices in their food; they put hot sauce on everything. There were things that we didn’t like but we didn’t have to take those. I enjoyed working with the food folks the whole time I was at NASA.\n\n When I made my flights where my nutrition was important, my last two flights, they wanted to be very good about making sure that we maintained our food intake and our vitamin and mineral intake. We had to measure everything. We worked really hard on, “What will I eat? What does it contain? I’m going to work hard to eat everything that I’m supposed to eat, because that’s normal. All these tests being done on me won’t be affected by the fact that I’m starving, that I ate too much sugar, or that I ate too much food.” I worked with the food folks the whole time I was there and enjoyed it.

[Assistant] I think I’ve seen a recipe from you in Charles’s cookbook [The Astronaut’s Cookbook: Tales, Recipes, and More].

[User] In his cookbook, yes. I was one of the people he wrote, and that’s a good recipe.

[Assistant] I haven’t tried it yet.

[User] My aunt Alice, my grandfather’s sister, that’s her recipe.

[Assistant] Tell us about testing the food on the KC-135. What did that involve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was good.

[Assistant] What were your hours like at SAIL?

[User] A little bit crazy. SAIL ran around the clock most of the time, doing the testing. Sometimes you worked night shift, sometimes day shift. At the time I didn’t have kids, didn’t make any difference whether I worked 7:00 to 3:00 or 3:00 to 11:00 or 11:00 to 7:00. Just tell me what I need to do, and I’ll plan the rest of my life around the job assignment. It was probably a good time to have that job assignment.

[Assistant] Were there any other astronauts working in SAIL with you?

[User] Yes, there was a whole group of us assigned to SAIL. Hoot was one. I don’t remember who the others were. Seems like Mike Mullane in his book talks about me being very pregnant and flying the Shuttle in SAIL. I guess he was over there at the same time. I don’t remember all the people, because we for the most part kind of worked alone. A very complex system, and a great way to get to know both the software and the hardware.

[Assistant] So they let the MSs [Mission Specialists] fly the Shuttle in SAIL?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit crazy. SAIL ran around the clock most of the time, doing the testing. Sometimes you worked night shift, sometimes day shift. At the time I didn’t have kids, didn’t make any difference whether I worked 7:00 to 3:00 or 3:00 to 11:00 or 11:00 to 7:00. Just tell me what I need to do, and I’ll plan the rest of my life around the job assignment. It was probably a good time to have that job assignment.

[Assistant] Were there any other astronauts working in SAIL with you?

[User] Yes, there was a whole group of us assigned to SAIL. Hoot was one. I don’t remember who the others were. Seems like Mike Mullane in his book talks about me being very pregnant and flying the Shuttle in SAIL. I guess he was over there at the same time. I don’t remember all the people, because we for the most part kind of worked alone. A very complex system, and a great way to get to know both the software and the hardware.

[Assistant] So they let the MSs [Mission Specialists] fly the Shuttle in SAIL?

[User] Oh yes. Just fly where the needles tell you to go and you can pretend like you’re flying down. That wasn’t part of what they were testing, obviously. They were just looking at the systems that supported it, but it gave you the opportunity to pretend to be the commander of the Shuttle.

[Assistant] That’s cool. You also mentioned in your biosheet that you worked on Orbiter and payload software. Was that different from working in the SAIL? Or was that the same?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s perfectly fine, I’m glad to do it.

[Assistant] I was looking through the transcript from last time. One of the things we hadn’t talked about was the fact that you were being selected to be an astronaut wife, but you were from a military family, and I know the military doesn’t pay very well, and you had a large family. I wonder if that was a concern for you, or an issue for you, being selected as an astronaut wife. I think you mentioned to us you had to go to the Indy 500. Maybe you were invited to a lot of events. Were you concerned at all or worried about—

[User] About money? Is that what you’re talking about?

[Assistant] Sure. Or dress. Yes. But people don’t like to talk about money. It’s a sore subject for some people.

[User] It is what it is.

[Assistant] Was that a concern?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About money? Is that what you’re talking about?

[Assistant] Sure. Or dress. Yes. But people don’t like to talk about money. It’s a sore subject for some people.

[User] It is what it is.

[Assistant] Was that a concern?

[User] What I’m hearing is was the fact that we were going to continue to live on military pay a concern. We weren’t getting anything extra from NASA.

[Assistant] Right. Was it a concern? Some of the wives, for instance, went to the White House. Some of them went to these big galas, these events. Were you expecting the same thing? Were you concerned that you would have to buy these type of outfits, and where were you going to find the funds?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is what it is.

[Assistant] Was that a concern?

[User] What I’m hearing is was the fact that we were going to continue to live on military pay a concern. We weren’t getting anything extra from NASA.

[Assistant] Right. Was it a concern? Some of the wives, for instance, went to the White House. Some of them went to these big galas, these events. Were you expecting the same thing? Were you concerned that you would have to buy these type of outfits, and where were you going to find the funds?

[User] No, I made them.

[Assistant] Oh, you made them, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I’m hearing is was the fact that we were going to continue to live on military pay a concern. We weren’t getting anything extra from NASA.

[Assistant] Right. Was it a concern? Some of the wives, for instance, went to the White House. Some of them went to these big galas, these events. Were you expecting the same thing? Were you concerned that you would have to buy these type of outfits, and where were you going to find the funds?

[User] No, I made them.

[Assistant] Oh, you made them, okay.

[User] I made my own things. I made a lot of the girls’ clothes too when they were little. But I was delighted, actually, because I’d get a chance to dress up, and wear the things.\n\n What I would do is I would go to the Vogue Pattern Book and get the most simple pattern I could find, simple and elegant, and then I’d buy a really elegant fabric and make my own dresses. I really got a lot of compliments on them. So that didn’t bother me. We did share a little bit in the Time-Life World Book contract, the last couple of years. We got a little share of that. So no, it never occurred to me that money was going to be a problem, and it really wasn’t.

[Assistant] You mentioned you got to go to the Indy 500. Were there other events that really stood out in your mind that you got to go to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I don’t know anybody who sewed much, but I sure did. I had one wife tell me recently that she couldn’t wait to see what I was going to wear to the next party. Anyway, that’s an answer to your question, it really wasn’t a concern. We had a big house here and we lived in government quarters before that, which were not very large or very nice. In fact, one was called Splinterville, which was an apt description of it.

[Assistant] What kind of car did you lease?

[User] A station wagon, what else?

[Assistant] I was thinking you’ve got to have big car for as many kids as you had. You didn’t lease the Corvette.

[User] No, I didn’t. He leased a Ford Cobra, and I got to drive that once in a while. He had a neat little ’53 MG TD that he’d restored, and I liked to drive that too. That was fun. It didn’t hold any kids, but that was fun.

[Assistant] That’s probably why you enjoyed it so much.