[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, boy, but I’m going to have to think about that. Oh.

[Assistant] That’s okay. I thought I would ask you.

[User] No, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I hate to say unless I really think about it. But I think the reason Kerwin was such a proponent of it was for religious purposes, to be able to take communion.

[Assistant] You mentioned so much about the astronaut office, and you mentioned of course the New 19. I was curious how did the office change when the Excess 11 [Astronaut Group 6] and the MOL [U.S. Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory] astronauts came on board.

[User] They were integrated fairly easily. Now I think at some point sometimes they felt like maybe they were a little bit removed because they didn’t come in through a regular selection. They were transferred over from the MOL Program. But if [so,] it was very brief. They became astronauts just like the NASA astronauts. There were very [few issues, if any,] that I remember. That [would have included Robert L.] Crippen and—let’s see, [Henry W.] Hartsfield, [Jr.] was [also] MOL. [Robert F.] Overmyer.

[Assistant]
Test yourself, aren’t you?

Overmyer and [Donald H.] Peterson.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I hate to say unless I really think about it. But I think the reason Kerwin was such a proponent of it was for religious purposes, to be able to take communion.

[Assistant] You mentioned so much about the astronaut office, and you mentioned of course the New 19. I was curious how did the office change when the Excess 11 [Astronaut Group 6] and the MOL [U.S. Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory] astronauts came on board.

[User] They were integrated fairly easily. Now I think at some point sometimes they felt like maybe they were a little bit removed because they didn’t come in through a regular selection. They were transferred over from the MOL Program. But if [so,] it was very brief. They became astronauts just like the NASA astronauts. There were very [few issues, if any,] that I remember. That [would have included Robert L.] Crippen and—let’s see, [Henry W.] Hartsfield, [Jr.] was [also] MOL. [Robert F.] Overmyer.

[Assistant]
Test yourself, aren’t you?

Overmyer and [Donald H.] Peterson.

[User] Yes, Don Peterson. There was another one.

[Assistant] [Richard H.] Truly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were integrated fairly easily. Now I think at some point sometimes they felt like maybe they were a little bit removed because they didn’t come in through a regular selection. They were transferred over from the MOL Program. But if [so,] it was very brief. They became astronauts just like the NASA astronauts. There were very [few issues, if any,] that I remember. That [would have included Robert L.] Crippen and—let’s see, [Henry W.] Hartsfield, [Jr.] was [also] MOL. [Robert F.] Overmyer.

[Assistant]
Test yourself, aren’t you?

Overmyer and [Donald H.] Peterson.

[User] Yes, Don Peterson. There was another one.

[Assistant] [Richard H.] Truly.

[User] Yes, Dick. Yes, how could I forget Dick Truly, yes.

[Assistant] I was curious about dress and fashion at that time. What did you typically wear to work? Was there a requirement that women wear certain clothing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Don Peterson. There was another one.

[Assistant] [Richard H.] Truly.

[User] Yes, Dick. Yes, how could I forget Dick Truly, yes.

[Assistant] I was curious about dress and fashion at that time. What did you typically wear to work? Was there a requirement that women wear certain clothing?

[User] Well, I’ll tell you, there was a big flap over pantsuits. Yes, because we wore dresses, and I mean, women didn’t wear suits back then, but we did wear dresses to work. Then with women’s lib [liberation] of the ’60s and everything, and I remember the first time I wore a pantsuit to work, and you would have thought it was—oh, my gosh, yes. But we dressed professionally. Now that said, the skirts were short, because it was the ’60s. For some of us anyway, our skirts were a little bit shorter….

[Assistant] Did pantsuits become part of acceptable dress for women by the time you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Dick. Yes, how could I forget Dick Truly, yes.

[Assistant] I was curious about dress and fashion at that time. What did you typically wear to work? Was there a requirement that women wear certain clothing?

[User] Well, I’ll tell you, there was a big flap over pantsuits. Yes, because we wore dresses, and I mean, women didn’t wear suits back then, but we did wear dresses to work. Then with women’s lib [liberation] of the ’60s and everything, and I remember the first time I wore a pantsuit to work, and you would have thought it was—oh, my gosh, yes. But we dressed professionally. Now that said, the skirts were short, because it was the ’60s. For some of us anyway, our skirts were a little bit shorter….

[Assistant] Did pantsuits become part of acceptable dress for women by the time you left?

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] You weren’t going back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’ll tell you, there was a big flap over pantsuits. Yes, because we wore dresses, and I mean, women didn’t wear suits back then, but we did wear dresses to work. Then with women’s lib [liberation] of the ’60s and everything, and I remember the first time I wore a pantsuit to work, and you would have thought it was—oh, my gosh, yes. But we dressed professionally. Now that said, the skirts were short, because it was the ’60s. For some of us anyway, our skirts were a little bit shorter….

[Assistant] Did pantsuits become part of acceptable dress for women by the time you left?

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] You weren’t going back.

[User] No. I still preferred dresses. I remember that [pantsuits were] a nice change, but I wasn’t quite into them. I think the women that were slightly older than I really took to the pantsuits, but I still felt like I needed to wear a dress.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, had you had some training in high school on things like typing and research skills?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] You weren’t going back.

[User] No. I still preferred dresses. I remember that [pantsuits were] a nice change, but I wasn’t quite into them. I think the women that were slightly older than I really took to the pantsuits, but I still felt like I needed to wear a dress.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, had you had some training in high school on things like typing and research skills?

[User] Yes. I had taken typing courses. I had taken shorthand and had done that purposely, because that’s what I was going to try to utilize. My intention was to get a job for a couple of years and earn enough money [to] go to college. Then I ended up in the astronaut office, and [that plan] just went out the window. But, I was prepared and was hired by NASA because of the [courses I took while in high school].

[Assistant] Was there any extra time for additional training? Did NASA provide any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I still preferred dresses. I remember that [pantsuits were] a nice change, but I wasn’t quite into them. I think the women that were slightly older than I really took to the pantsuits, but I still felt like I needed to wear a dress.

[Assistant] When you first started with NASA, had you had some training in high school on things like typing and research skills?

[User] Yes. I had taken typing courses. I had taken shorthand and had done that purposely, because that’s what I was going to try to utilize. My intention was to get a job for a couple of years and earn enough money [to] go to college. Then I ended up in the astronaut office, and [that plan] just went out the window. But, I was prepared and was hired by NASA because of the [courses I took while in high school].

[Assistant] Was there any extra time for additional training? Did NASA provide any?

[User] Yes, [but most were elective, not] the type of [training] that was required. We were offered things that we were able to take advantage of [if we were interested]. I wish I could think of something, an example. But it would enhance our positions, our jobs, and give us the opportunity for maybe a couple of extra points when it came to applying for another job. Outside activities [also] counted. We had started the softball team, and the guys played on it sometimes. If not, they would umpire or referee. [NASA] encouraged [training and] extra, [outside] activities. I remember going to [numerous] training classes, [and] I’ve got all my certificates somewhere.

[Assistant] I was just curious about that. The only other question that I had for you was how do you think that the Manned Spacecraft Center changed the Clear Lake area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, very much so. The astronaut office people went out [together]. It wasn’t that [you] were trying to keep separate, it was a convenience factor, [and you were working the same hours]. "Hey, let’s go." We had opportunities to [mingle], because back then happy hour was real popular—especially around here at the Nassau Bay Hotel and the Kings Inn. There were [also] some darn good splashdown parties. The launch parties at the Cape, that’s where everybody wanted to be, and [then to] splashdown parties [here] in Houston. Yes, we partied hearty.

[Assistant] Time to celebrate.

[User] Time to celebrate, yes we did. But families, [and] the wives, [also] participated [and partied]. We had special times where their kids would have an opportunity to go to the circus. I remember riding a bus with a busload of astronaut children to the circus up at the old Sam Houston Coliseum. Oh, rowdiest bunch. I don’t think I [volunteered] for that duty again.\n\n But we did have a lot of interaction in that way. It made us all feel a little bit more connected. Gay [Alford] was very good about keeping [the secretaries working closely together because we needed to cover each other]. We called her mother superior, and still do. If [the astronauts] were coming up the back hallway from the simulator, and you were closer to them than going around the front of the office to ask their own secretary to do something, the guys didn’t care, they’d pop in your office and ask you to do something, and you did it. That’s why we all had to be pretty close and work as a real unit, as a tight unit, because you couldn’t say, "No, I don’t work for you, get around there to the other side."

[Assistant] I guess it helped with all of the secretaries being close, because then there wasn’t that territorial of—

[User] Oh, there was territorial.

[Assistant] Oh, was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Time to celebrate, yes we did. But families, [and] the wives, [also] participated [and partied]. We had special times where their kids would have an opportunity to go to the circus. I remember riding a bus with a busload of astronaut children to the circus up at the old Sam Houston Coliseum. Oh, rowdiest bunch. I don’t think I [volunteered] for that duty again.\n\n But we did have a lot of interaction in that way. It made us all feel a little bit more connected. Gay [Alford] was very good about keeping [the secretaries working closely together because we needed to cover each other]. We called her mother superior, and still do. If [the astronauts] were coming up the back hallway from the simulator, and you were closer to them than going around the front of the office to ask their own secretary to do something, the guys didn’t care, they’d pop in your office and ask you to do something, and you did it. That’s why we all had to be pretty close and work as a real unit, as a tight unit, because you couldn’t say, "No, I don’t work for you, get around there to the other side."

[Assistant] I guess it helped with all of the secretaries being close, because then there wasn’t that territorial of—

[User] Oh, there was territorial.

[Assistant] Oh, was there?

[User] Yes, but you got over it. You got over it. Those were coveted jobs. [The secretarial positions] were highly coveted jobs, [and] we were reminded that they were highly coveted jobs. There wasn’t competition per se, but I think there was, [because] I know, personally, I wanted to be known as the best of the group. I think each one of us did.

[Assistant] Were there rules, either written or unwritten, about socializing with the astronauts, as in on a personal basis, not as a family basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, there was territorial.

[Assistant] Oh, was there?

[User] Yes, but you got over it. You got over it. Those were coveted jobs. [The secretarial positions] were highly coveted jobs, [and] we were reminded that they were highly coveted jobs. There wasn’t competition per se, but I think there was, [because] I know, personally, I wanted to be known as the best of the group. I think each one of us did.

[Assistant] Were there rules, either written or unwritten, about socializing with the astronauts, as in on a personal basis, not as a family basis?

[User] Not so much, because Admiral Shepard, his philosophy was, and he promoted it too, was that we were family. [But] there was nothing that I ever saw in writing or otherwise. I don’t know that from the astronauts’ standpoint, I don’t know if anything was said to them about it. It was the unwritten rule, [but] there was nothing official or otherwise that I was ever aware of.

[Assistant] We’re curious about what you felt to be the most challenging aspect of your job during the seven years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but you got over it. You got over it. Those were coveted jobs. [The secretarial positions] were highly coveted jobs, [and] we were reminded that they were highly coveted jobs. There wasn’t competition per se, but I think there was, [because] I know, personally, I wanted to be known as the best of the group. I think each one of us did.

[Assistant] Were there rules, either written or unwritten, about socializing with the astronauts, as in on a personal basis, not as a family basis?

[User] Not so much, because Admiral Shepard, his philosophy was, and he promoted it too, was that we were family. [But] there was nothing that I ever saw in writing or otherwise. I don’t know that from the astronauts’ standpoint, I don’t know if anything was said to them about it. It was the unwritten rule, [but] there was nothing official or otherwise that I was ever aware of.

[Assistant] We’re curious about what you felt to be the most challenging aspect of your job during the seven years.

[User] Probably, [that] we were required to wear so many hats. That was really the most challenging part of it. The work was so diversified, and it varied so much depending on which astronaut you were working for too. A lot of them had outside interests that you tried to help them with. But you were public relations, you were mother hen, you were a screener; it was a difficult job. I think that was probably the most challenging part of it, in addition to the having to be able to recognize the priorities when you’re working with ten astronauts with varying [responsibilities on different] missions [and programs]. Each one of them thought their [work] was the most important and their mission was the most important. Having to prioritize, that was really tough, really tough trying to explain to them, "No, you have to wait in line, because this guy has,"—they were not used to that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you’d like to share with us today? I think we’ve pretty much gone over our thoughts. Did you have any other thing you would like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not so much, because Admiral Shepard, his philosophy was, and he promoted it too, was that we were family. [But] there was nothing that I ever saw in writing or otherwise. I don’t know that from the astronauts’ standpoint, I don’t know if anything was said to them about it. It was the unwritten rule, [but] there was nothing official or otherwise that I was ever aware of.

[Assistant] We’re curious about what you felt to be the most challenging aspect of your job during the seven years.

[User] Probably, [that] we were required to wear so many hats. That was really the most challenging part of it. The work was so diversified, and it varied so much depending on which astronaut you were working for too. A lot of them had outside interests that you tried to help them with. But you were public relations, you were mother hen, you were a screener; it was a difficult job. I think that was probably the most challenging part of it, in addition to the having to be able to recognize the priorities when you’re working with ten astronauts with varying [responsibilities on different] missions [and programs]. Each one of them thought their [work] was the most important and their mission was the most important. Having to prioritize, that was really tough, really tough trying to explain to them, "No, you have to wait in line, because this guy has,"—they were not used to that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you’d like to share with us today? I think we’ve pretty much gone over our thoughts. Did you have any other thing you would like to add?

[User] No, I don’t think so. I’ll probably think of a hundred things. None of it probably makes any difference whatsoever. That’s okay too. There was just a lot of stuff [and] we were really so lucky. To this day I know how very lucky I was to be there at that time. Talk about stumbling into something, it was just tremendous.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like a truly exciting moment that just kept going on for seven years. We thank you for giving us your time this afternoon and sharing that with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Glad to be here.

[Assistant] We'd like for you to start by telling us what were your roles and responsibilities in this program.

[User] I started out as the cardiovascular discipline lead for the Shuttle-Mir Program that was Norm [Norman] Thagard's flight, the whole STS-71 Mir 18 experience, which meant I was the lead and the point of contact for the cardiovascular set of investigations that were part of the human life sciences investigations. I eventually became the deputy project scientist for that assisting Peggy Whitson. Then for the NASA-Mir Program, which is the second wave, the Shannon Lucid and following flights, I became the project scientist for the human life sciences investigations, all the disciplines of the human life sciences, including cardiovascular, and neurosensory and musculoskeletal, and all that kind of stuff.\n\n After a couple of increments of that, I was asked to function as the mission scientist for the NASA-Mir Program, and I was the mission scientist specifically for NASA 4 and NASA 5, the Jerry Linenger and Mike Foale missions. As a mission scientist, I was responsible for not only the human life sciences, but all the other sciences, the microgravity, the biology, the space sciences. Everything else that was in the area of science, I was at least nominally responsible for.

[Assistant] Each one of those roles were extremely busy. Is that correct?

[User] That is correct.

[Assistant] Were you able to build from that first experience to the last experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] "Call me. My people will call your people."

[Assistant] It was on your watch that the collision took place?

[User] I think it was. Maybe it was a near miss. It's really sad, because it was only a couple of years ago, but I forget if it was a near miss or the collision. Let's see. Linenger was the fire, and Mike Foale was the collision. I was the mission scientist for both of those. I was over there for--no, I was over there for Blaha's flight, so I wasn't over there for Linenger's flight. [It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing.]

[Assistant] One could say it kind of starts running together.

[User] I never believe anybody else who says, "Gee, I don't recall if it was the collision or the near miss." But in my case, I don't remember if it was the collision or the near miss, but I know that when the collision occurred, it was--yes, that's right, that was the collision. It was the sleep study. The commander had done the sleep study.

[Assistant] How did it affect the science, the collision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] As a consultant?

[User] No, what they decided to do is to do an in-house design again, very much what we did in the Shuttle Program. They put together a team from all the NASA Centers. Then they got about ten of us that were involved in the Apollo Program, and they would use us as mentors to the younger people so that there are various disciplines in various groups. We work with them to give our experience that we would go through, or like in many cases, we would tell them, “Go look for this report, because we did these tests, and you’ll see what the results were from them.”\n\n People like—one of them was John Young. Ken [Thomas Kenneth “T.K”] Mattingly [II] is another. Bob Sieck from Kennedy, Bob [Robert S.] Ryan from Huntsville, Tom Modlin, Jim Jacks. I’m trying to think of all the people. Oh, Warren [L.] Brasher, who was head of the Propulsion Division.\n\n We worked with these people and sort of guided them into—our experience before, there’s a number of things that, “Don’t do that, because we tried it, and it didn’t work. Try something like this.” It was a good experience. I think it was good for the youngsters and also for us to be able to talk to them and pass on to them the experience that we have.

[Assistant] Were they generally accepting of your experience?

[User] Very much so. Matter of fact, it got to the point where they would keep coming for you for information, to the point that, like right now, I’m in the process of reviewing some reports, and they send me a report on Friday afternoon. “We want your comments by Monday morning.” It’s like I spend all weekend working on reports. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Your hours haven’t changed a lot since those early days. [Laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much so. Matter of fact, it got to the point where they would keep coming for you for information, to the point that, like right now, I’m in the process of reviewing some reports, and they send me a report on Friday afternoon. “We want your comments by Monday morning.” It’s like I spend all weekend working on reports. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Your hours haven’t changed a lot since those early days. [Laughs]

[User] No. They were very receptive as far as the things that you said. They seem to listen and they seem to absorb what you’re talking about. No, it’s very good.

[Assistant] And quite a benefit for them to have all those years of experience behind—you, as you know, didn’t have that advantage when you were doing Apollo.

[User] Yes. Well, the thing that I hope that this program will be successful, because we do have that background, and what we’re trying to do is to have, again, a small increase in the capability that we had before, and I think it will make it successful, and the schedule will be quicker, and the cost will be less as a result of that, so I’m really hopeful that it will be successful. I really do.

[Assistant] Well, as you look back on your career with NASA, and as you say, it’s still going on, what would you consider to be the most challenging aspect of that career, either a program or an incident or a time period or a position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think that it was gratifying that they thought that what you were doing was important and they wanted to do the same thing, too. But I still stay very close to where I went to school, the University of Vermont [Burlington, Vermont]. I’m on an advisory board for math and engineering, again with the idea to get these younger people to get the best opportunity they can to be able to go out and do things. I think that’s pretty rewarding to do. I found out that this position on this advisory board is supposedly for three years, and then I figured out the other day that I’ve been on the board for twenty-five years now. [Laughter] So I guess it’s working.

[Assistant] You’re doing a good job. [Laughs]

[User] I guess they like what I’m doing or whatever.

[Assistant] That’s right.

[User] Something like that. But it’s rewarding to have people come along behind you and be accomplishing things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven’t talked about or any specific projects? Any anecdotes that you’d like to share? Anybody, any person that you’d like to say something about before we close?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess they like what I’m doing or whatever.

[Assistant] That’s right.

[User] Something like that. But it’s rewarding to have people come along behind you and be accomplishing things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven’t talked about or any specific projects? Any anecdotes that you’d like to share? Anybody, any person that you’d like to say something about before we close?

[User] No, there are just many, many people that you’d like to talk about, and how they helped. I think the first experience that I had in program management with the Little Joe II Program that I worked with their program manager at Convair, Jack Hurt. He was very helpful to teach me [about program management]. I think during the Apollo and the Shuttle Program, again, an individual at North American, or Rockwell now, Charles Feltz, was very useful to me. With the development of the thermal protection system [for the Shuttle], Jack Milton at Lockheed was very helpful along that line.\n\n When I came to Headquarters, in addition to Hans Mark, the Administrator, Jim [James M.] Beggs, was very useful as far as learning things from Jim. We’re still very, very good friends.\n\n I go all the way back to college days, and I had one professor that taught a single course in aerodynamics, [Howard Duchacek]. We only had one semester course. He’s dead now, but I’m still close to his wife, and I used to kid him about based on that one course, I became Chief of Aeronautics at JSC, so I thought that was a pretty good course.

[Assistant] An effective course. [Laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something like that. But it’s rewarding to have people come along behind you and be accomplishing things.

[Assistant] Is there anything that we haven’t talked about or any specific projects? Any anecdotes that you’d like to share? Anybody, any person that you’d like to say something about before we close?

[User] No, there are just many, many people that you’d like to talk about, and how they helped. I think the first experience that I had in program management with the Little Joe II Program that I worked with their program manager at Convair, Jack Hurt. He was very helpful to teach me [about program management]. I think during the Apollo and the Shuttle Program, again, an individual at North American, or Rockwell now, Charles Feltz, was very useful to me. With the development of the thermal protection system [for the Shuttle], Jack Milton at Lockheed was very helpful along that line.\n\n When I came to Headquarters, in addition to Hans Mark, the Administrator, Jim [James M.] Beggs, was very useful as far as learning things from Jim. We’re still very, very good friends.\n\n I go all the way back to college days, and I had one professor that taught a single course in aerodynamics, [Howard Duchacek]. We only had one semester course. He’s dead now, but I’m still close to his wife, and I used to kid him about based on that one course, I became Chief of Aeronautics at JSC, so I thought that was a pretty good course.

[Assistant] An effective course. [Laughs]

[User] Yes, and I’ve been blessed [to work] with a lot of good, interesting people in my lifetime, and it’s been a lot of fun. It really is.

[Assistant] Well, I thank you for coming today and sharing your career with us again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Summer of '97 was a long summer.

[Assistant] A triumph over the unexpected though, wasn't it?

[User] But we got through it. I think the lesson there is, just like after the fire the previous February, that these things will happen. They may not be as dramatic as a fire or as a collision. Things always happen, and you can't predict them, and you have to be ready to respond to it. We're ready. We've passed the lessons on to the ISS folks. Many of us are actually working over to work station programs in one capacity or another, so hopefully that experience will be transferred over. Hopefully, we won't have anything as serious or as dramatic, or things will be even smoother, but you never know. You have to be prepared for it, and I think we know how to respond in those kind of cases.

[Assistant] The proof is there. Did you have problems after the fire as well, with the science area?

[User] Only that the crew were so busy dealing with the fire and its aftermath, that we had to reschedule a lot of activities. So, again there, too, it was on that mission that we had one experiment not get done, but that was mainly for scheduling reasons.\n\n There was an EVA scheduled for fairly late in the flight, and for one reason or another, it kept getting delayed, and we had time-lined that one experiment to occur after the EVA, and it just kept getting pushed out to the right, and then we just ran out of mission. We kept it on board, hoping to get it done during the next flight. Of course, we had the collision, so that regrouped all of our thoughts again. Finally, we just said, "Hey, we tried, and it just couldn't happen."

[Assistant] Tell us about how the EVA in science worked. You mentioned that a little bit in the press conference the other day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have. I had a great group supporting me over at Lockheed-Martin, in the Mission Science Office. The operations engineers also, mostly from Lockheed, were just excellent, very dedicated. Many of them spent a long time in Moscow, usually on a six-week rotation basis. Our operations lead would be there for the whole mission, so four to six months, in Moscow. And some have families. Some took their families with them, some didn't, so there are challenges there as well, on a personal level. Just the daily--it's long hours over there. It's not easy. Of course, if they're there in the wintertime, they have to deal with the climate.

[Assistant] Long, cold hours.

[User] Yes. Long, cold hours. Lot of dark hours outside. So it's been a challenge all around.

[Assistant] And for you, all that you had to coordinate and implement and develop. You must have caught yourself coming and going a couple of times.

[User] There were some days, yes. I wasn't sure if I ever got any sleep on some days. So, yes, it was very challenging. As I said, the early part of the program, when we were trying to put the program together and we really didn't know what our resource envelopes were going to be, "Now, how much can we do? How much should we ask that we can do?" Kind of working in the dark a little bit, and that sort of gradually progressed to putting a real mission together. As we were doing some of the missions, we had the fire and the accident that caused us to regroup. There are very, very few slow days.

[Assistant] As the program comes to a close the next couple of weeks, I know your job's not going to be over. It's going to continue, but it'll take a different pace. As you look over the whole program, from what you've told us for the last hour or so, I have to assume that it far exceeded the expectations that you had hoped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Long, cold hours. Lot of dark hours outside. So it's been a challenge all around.

[Assistant] And for you, all that you had to coordinate and implement and develop. You must have caught yourself coming and going a couple of times.

[User] There were some days, yes. I wasn't sure if I ever got any sleep on some days. So, yes, it was very challenging. As I said, the early part of the program, when we were trying to put the program together and we really didn't know what our resource envelopes were going to be, "Now, how much can we do? How much should we ask that we can do?" Kind of working in the dark a little bit, and that sort of gradually progressed to putting a real mission together. As we were doing some of the missions, we had the fire and the accident that caused us to regroup. There are very, very few slow days.

[Assistant] As the program comes to a close the next couple of weeks, I know your job's not going to be over. It's going to continue, but it'll take a different pace. As you look over the whole program, from what you've told us for the last hour or so, I have to assume that it far exceeded the expectations that you had hoped.

[User] Yes, it did. Well, number one, one thing I didn't mention is, somewhere along the way, we had only started with five missions and then they added two more long-duration flights. This happened probably in late '95. In fact, it was about two weeks after the birth of my daughter, so there was that to juggle as well.

[Assistant] You worked that in? That was good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They'll be long-lasting and a lot of this will be wrapped into the ISS research, to make it better, so I think the return from ISS will be better because of having done Phase One. We won't waste a lot of time on ISS doing things that we know are maybe not the right way to do it or not suitable for doing things on a space station platform. We can redirect that to other channels. All in all, I think, just having had the experience will make developing station a lot better, a lot easier, and save money, I think.

[Assistant] How about yourself? Something you learned about yourself or about your stamina, if nothing else?

[User] Well, I certainly learned that.

[Assistant] Or as a scientist?

[User] Well, I certainly learned about my stamina and my patience. I mean, I was amazed at what we had to endure in some cases. Maybe in an earlier time, I would have just said, "Look, you know, King's X. I'm outta here. I've had enough. This is too much." And after a while, you just said, "Okay, well there's another thing we have to deal with, and we're just going to do it," and we did it.\n\n From a scientific perspective, most of my background was in life sciences, and then all of a sudden, as this job came along and this program expanded, I had to learn all about microgravity, all about some of the biological things, about the earth sciences and learn what all that science means and why we're doing it, and some of the physics that I had to understand, which I never did in college, but I finally got forced into me. So that certainly broadened my horizons about, gee, there's a lot more we can do here in space than just looking at what happens to crew members that I was not aware of before. That certainly expanded my horizons. So I have a better understanding of what we're trying to do on station as well.

[Assistant] And you'll be moving toward that? Is that what you mentioned earlier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I certainly learned that.

[Assistant] Or as a scientist?

[User] Well, I certainly learned about my stamina and my patience. I mean, I was amazed at what we had to endure in some cases. Maybe in an earlier time, I would have just said, "Look, you know, King's X. I'm outta here. I've had enough. This is too much." And after a while, you just said, "Okay, well there's another thing we have to deal with, and we're just going to do it," and we did it.\n\n From a scientific perspective, most of my background was in life sciences, and then all of a sudden, as this job came along and this program expanded, I had to learn all about microgravity, all about some of the biological things, about the earth sciences and learn what all that science means and why we're doing it, and some of the physics that I had to understand, which I never did in college, but I finally got forced into me. So that certainly broadened my horizons about, gee, there's a lot more we can do here in space than just looking at what happens to crew members that I was not aware of before. That certainly expanded my horizons. So I have a better understanding of what we're trying to do on station as well.

[Assistant] And you'll be moving toward that? Is that what you mentioned earlier?

[User] Yes, I'm going to be focusing on the life sciences experiments back again, so this was kind of a blip on my career, if you will. It was kind of an oddity, if you will. But because of that, now I know how to do this, but I also understand why other people are doing other science, and why that's just as important. It's not, "Oh, that's all that other stuff." It's like, "Okay, I've been there. I know why we're doing this, too." So it puts everything into better perspective.

[Assistant] And that it all kind of melds together at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the only two animal experiments that we did was, one was this quail egg. I'm going to call it "incubator" for short, because we used an incubator system on board the Mir, and that was only about a seventeen-day experiment because that's the time of gestation for the quail eggs. We didn't actually hatch them on orbit. We didn't want birds flying around. We were just really strictly looking at how does the embryo genesis within an egg develop over that course of seventeen days. Again, since seventeen days is about the maximum for a shuttle flight, that would have been very difficult to carry out on shuttle. We wanted to have that pad on either side that we could do the experiment fully.\n\n We also had one experiment that actually utilized beetles we got from central Asia. And that was more of a circadian rhythm kind of experiment, looking at how we altered the light and dark cycles, and how do the beetles respond in terms of activity levels and things like that. But in terms of other animal experiments, we did not do those on Mir. We didn't try a centrifuge facility. I think, number one, we didn't have the resources or the capability to fly a large enough centrifuge on Mir that would not have disrupted the whole system itself.

[Assistant] That's all I have. You have anything else you'd like to add at the end?

[User] No. I think we've pretty much covered it all. I think, just to wrap up, as I said, it's been probably one of the most challenging things I've ever done over the last six years or so.

[Assistant] Been a full six years.

[User] Been a very full six years.

[Assistant] Or maybe a ten-year span in a six-year block.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think we've pretty much covered it all. I think, just to wrap up, as I said, it's been probably one of the most challenging things I've ever done over the last six years or so.

[Assistant] Been a full six years.

[User] Been a very full six years.

[Assistant] Or maybe a ten-year span in a six-year block.

[User] It feels like ten years some days.

[Assistant] We wish you luck in your ISS adventures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Been a very full six years.

[Assistant] Or maybe a ten-year span in a six-year block.

[User] It feels like ten years some days.

[Assistant] We wish you luck in your ISS adventures.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And I thank you again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A long time. Well, it was, you know, I don't know. Months. Probably months, not a year. And I think it's six, seven, six months, maybe five months. I don't remember how long, but it was long enough to be nervous. But it was wintertime. It was like maybe January or February, and I was graduating in a few months and things are getting tight. Yeah.

[Assistant] So the most common question from 1961 to present is, of course, why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I just answered that. There was an alternative to going to Vietnam into the service.

[Assistant] And the recruiters that came on campus, was that the first time you had heard about Peace Corps or when had you first heard about it?

[User] Well, when it first started with JFK. Of course, everybody, in my generation Peace Corps in everybody's imagination was magical. So there was a predisposition, a very positive one about Peace Corps just, you know, leading up to this.

[Assistant] So what were your friends, family or your reactions when you were accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I just answered that. There was an alternative to going to Vietnam into the service.

[Assistant] And the recruiters that came on campus, was that the first time you had heard about Peace Corps or when had you first heard about it?

[User] Well, when it first started with JFK. Of course, everybody, in my generation Peace Corps in everybody's imagination was magical. So there was a predisposition, a very positive one about Peace Corps just, you know, leading up to this.

[Assistant] So what were your friends, family or your reactions when you were accepted?

[User] Besides my aunt being so impressed that someone from Washington, D.C., would actually call the house for me, you know, I don't remember any big reaction. My parents were behind me 100 percent. And I really don't remember much input. This is a long time ago, it's 40 years. I don't remember any friends saying, are you crazy? Or that's good. It was just, you know, I was leaving college, which is in Ohio. I grew up in New York. My parents at that point had relocated to, they were relocating to Florida. And so it was a lot of people I was leaving that I probably wouldn't see in a while, maybe ever. And so there was really no significant reaction to, you know, either way.

[Assistant] Do you remember if there were any reservations on your or their part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when it first started with JFK. Of course, everybody, in my generation Peace Corps in everybody's imagination was magical. So there was a predisposition, a very positive one about Peace Corps just, you know, leading up to this.

[Assistant] So what were your friends, family or your reactions when you were accepted?

[User] Besides my aunt being so impressed that someone from Washington, D.C., would actually call the house for me, you know, I don't remember any big reaction. My parents were behind me 100 percent. And I really don't remember much input. This is a long time ago, it's 40 years. I don't remember any friends saying, are you crazy? Or that's good. It was just, you know, I was leaving college, which is in Ohio. I grew up in New York. My parents at that point had relocated to, they were relocating to Florida. And so it was a lot of people I was leaving that I probably wouldn't see in a while, maybe ever. And so there was really no significant reaction to, you know, either way.

[Assistant] Do you remember if there were any reservations on your or their part?

[User] No, no. Nothing like that at all. Nothing negative, ever.

[Assistant] So what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Besides my aunt being so impressed that someone from Washington, D.C., would actually call the house for me, you know, I don't remember any big reaction. My parents were behind me 100 percent. And I really don't remember much input. This is a long time ago, it's 40 years. I don't remember any friends saying, are you crazy? Or that's good. It was just, you know, I was leaving college, which is in Ohio. I grew up in New York. My parents at that point had relocated to, they were relocating to Florida. And so it was a lot of people I was leaving that I probably wouldn't see in a while, maybe ever. And so there was really no significant reaction to, you know, either way.

[Assistant] Do you remember if there were any reservations on your or their part?

[User] No, no. Nothing like that at all. Nothing negative, ever.

[Assistant] So what project were you invited to join?

[User] Well, I didn't have one. It's one of my complaints in the Peace Corps is that they could do a lot better at that sort of thing. It's an organizational thing. You know, it's not like I was going into a country that there wasn't things to do. Like, we got these people coming, what are we going to do with them? Well, there are a lot of things that could be done. And so basically, I was told to go to this town called Santa Cruz. There were two volunteers that were leaving soon and they were going to meet with me and talk to me. But there was no project. And basically, they said, we'll find it.

[Assistant] And the two volunteers had previously been there for two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was there with my wife and daughter, Mackenzie and Phyllis three years ago, I think it was, and met the co-op again. Most of them of there still, are older, and they brought us out to the land and showed me what they're doing with it. They're still there.

[Assistant] That's a good thing you pulled out. That's sustainable.

[User] Yes, it was. It was a very successful thing. But part of that, really, the people were like. I could never have done that with, you know, people that were less committed and that didn't believe in it, you know, and energetic and smart enough to do it. The credit goes to them. I mean, without me, probably couldn't have done it. But without those kind of people, that never would have happened. If I had done to that other town, you know, there are lots of other places in Costa Rica where this kind of thing could have taken place, and maybe some of them could have been successful, but it has to come down to the people there.

[Assistant] Hmm. So one last question about the land reform. Was that countrywide?

[User] Oh no, it was just in the area because there was the ranch that was quite large and they took part of it to get enough land to each farmer through the co-op. This is all came through the co-op and there's the co-op is responsible to pay the bonds back. If they hadn't paid the bonds back, they could have, you know, the government and the work that was done would have been a scandal, a scandalosa.

[Assistant] So going back a few steps, we talked about the project that you started or continued. Another question is how did you prepare yourself and others for your Peace Corps service? So your friends and family and yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was a very successful thing. But part of that, really, the people were like. I could never have done that with, you know, people that were less committed and that didn't believe in it, you know, and energetic and smart enough to do it. The credit goes to them. I mean, without me, probably couldn't have done it. But without those kind of people, that never would have happened. If I had done to that other town, you know, there are lots of other places in Costa Rica where this kind of thing could have taken place, and maybe some of them could have been successful, but it has to come down to the people there.

[Assistant] Hmm. So one last question about the land reform. Was that countrywide?

[User] Oh no, it was just in the area because there was the ranch that was quite large and they took part of it to get enough land to each farmer through the co-op. This is all came through the co-op and there's the co-op is responsible to pay the bonds back. If they hadn't paid the bonds back, they could have, you know, the government and the work that was done would have been a scandal, a scandalosa.

[Assistant] So going back a few steps, we talked about the project that you started or continued. Another question is how did you prepare yourself and others for your Peace Corps service? So your friends and family and yourself.

[User] I didn't prepare any friends or family. They didn't need the preparation, I did, and the preparation, as weak as it was, was done by the Peace Corps through the training on the mountain top of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, the rainforest.

[Assistant] So let's talk about that then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, it was just in the area because there was the ranch that was quite large and they took part of it to get enough land to each farmer through the co-op. This is all came through the co-op and there's the co-op is responsible to pay the bonds back. If they hadn't paid the bonds back, they could have, you know, the government and the work that was done would have been a scandal, a scandalosa.

[Assistant] So going back a few steps, we talked about the project that you started or continued. Another question is how did you prepare yourself and others for your Peace Corps service? So your friends and family and yourself.

[User] I didn't prepare any friends or family. They didn't need the preparation, I did, and the preparation, as weak as it was, was done by the Peace Corps through the training on the mountain top of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, the rainforest.

[Assistant] So let's talk about that then.

[User] Oh boy.

[Assistant] How was your training and what did it entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a thing about not getting together, trying to stay by site because, you know, it was so lonely and so difficult that if they didn't make that rule, you know, we'd be there every weekend with each other. And a lot of folks did that. I didn't really. And there was a volunteer in the town and he was there for a little while before, when I got there, and he left. Over the years, there were volunteers close by, you know, a bus ride away, but basically, I was basically by myself.

[Assistant] So it sounds like your friends then were Costa Rican men mainly, from the pool hall and the co-op?

[User] Yeah, mostly guys. I was friendly with some volunteers. When We'd end up in San Jose, we'd go to movies and dinner and stuff like that. There was a couple of volunteers I was closer to than others, that I saw.

[Assistant] OK, can you think of any specific relationships with, for example, your Costa Rican friends and how that impacted your time there?

[User] A relationship in what way?

[Assistant] Friendship or people that you spent time with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, mostly guys. I was friendly with some volunteers. When We'd end up in San Jose, we'd go to movies and dinner and stuff like that. There was a couple of volunteers I was closer to than others, that I saw.

[Assistant] OK, can you think of any specific relationships with, for example, your Costa Rican friends and how that impacted your time there?

[User] A relationship in what way?

[Assistant] Friendship or people that you spent time with.

[User] Yeah, there was a guy there who I met when I was first there, named Cokie, he spoke some English. He had spent a semester at the university in America until he partied so much they had to send him home. But he was there and he was introduced to me my first day there. And he's the one who helped me find the house with the two ladies that lived there. And he's also the one who helped me when I moved. And his mother is the one who was a terrible cook. And so we became very close. There was a co-op of, I mean, an accountant named Fernand Perez, and he was a great guy and we became friends. He helped do the accounting for the co-op, and I think he still does. As a matter of fact I saw him on the way back three years ago, I saw him. Girls, you know, but not too many. Mostly, Costa Rican girls really couldn't date seriously because that had very strong ramifications. And yet, you know, feel responsible for some guy you just got there. So I had a lot of friends coming from the States to visit me, which happened. I had a number of friends come.

[Assistant] So how did that happen, first of all, how is your communication with the States? How did you communicate and how did your friends come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A relationship in what way?

[Assistant] Friendship or people that you spent time with.

[User] Yeah, there was a guy there who I met when I was first there, named Cokie, he spoke some English. He had spent a semester at the university in America until he partied so much they had to send him home. But he was there and he was introduced to me my first day there. And he's the one who helped me find the house with the two ladies that lived there. And he's also the one who helped me when I moved. And his mother is the one who was a terrible cook. And so we became very close. There was a co-op of, I mean, an accountant named Fernand Perez, and he was a great guy and we became friends. He helped do the accounting for the co-op, and I think he still does. As a matter of fact I saw him on the way back three years ago, I saw him. Girls, you know, but not too many. Mostly, Costa Rican girls really couldn't date seriously because that had very strong ramifications. And yet, you know, feel responsible for some guy you just got there. So I had a lot of friends coming from the States to visit me, which happened. I had a number of friends come.

[Assistant] So how did that happen, first of all, how is your communication with the States? How did you communicate and how did your friends come?

[User] Letters. Matter of fact, the town of Santa Cruz did not have a phone until I was there for a couple of years. It had telegraph which had a whole other, there was no privacy in communications. There's a war stories about that you can relate, but mostly just by letters. It had to be read, corresponded by letters. You waited for the mailman to come. He'd ride up in a bicycle and hand me a letter.

[Assistant] And then how did your friends find you? Your friends from the States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Letters. Matter of fact, the town of Santa Cruz did not have a phone until I was there for a couple of years. It had telegraph which had a whole other, there was no privacy in communications. There's a war stories about that you can relate, but mostly just by letters. It had to be read, corresponded by letters. You waited for the mailman to come. He'd ride up in a bicycle and hand me a letter.

[Assistant] And then how did your friends find you? Your friends from the States?

[User] Drew them a map. Said fly to San Jose and I'll pick you up. So they didn't go into my site. It was a couple of them over a period of time.

[Assistant] So let's talk about the end of your first year. What were some notable events or reflections, joys, woes, unexpected events, relationships?

[User] You know, I don't know if I could chronologically do this. In the first year, I don't know what I did. I knew in six months I was dreaming in Spanish and joking. I don't even remember, in the three years I was there, when Pepe Figueres came in. I have to go back and I'd have to look at that. So and the stories that I've been telling here are over the period of time, there's not necessarily a sequence of it, although there's some of that chronologically. But I didn't finish like one year and think about, oh, you know, I've been here one year. Now what are we going to do? It was just one day at a time.

[Assistant] So what about the end of your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I don't know if I could chronologically do this. In the first year, I don't know what I did. I knew in six months I was dreaming in Spanish and joking. I don't even remember, in the three years I was there, when Pepe Figueres came in. I have to go back and I'd have to look at that. So and the stories that I've been telling here are over the period of time, there's not necessarily a sequence of it, although there's some of that chronologically. But I didn't finish like one year and think about, oh, you know, I've been here one year. Now what are we going to do? It was just one day at a time.

[Assistant] So what about the end of your service?

[User] It was, uh. I always felt that I was emotionally a very strong person. I think I am today. But it was tough for me to go.

[Assistant] Tell us.

[User] I haven't talked very much about this, but the night before I left, I spent the night in the same hotel in San Jose that they put us up. It's a better hotel. And I said I spent that night by myself and I sat in bed and it was. I knew. It was time to leave. It took an emotional toll on me that I didn't really realize so much, like you'd think I did. But that night I just said, jeez, I don't think I can stay here another day. I just had to get out, I had to go home. And I had been home, it wasn't like I'd spent three years away from home. You know, my parents sent me plane tickets, I'd come back home for a few days around Christmas, maybe, or holidays. They live in Florida so I can fly right to Miami and they'd pick me up. I'd be home in three hours by car once they got there. In one 24 hour period, I made sure that I rode a boat, a horse, a motorcycle, a car, and an airplane. I worked that out.

[Assistant] To go back to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, uh. I always felt that I was emotionally a very strong person. I think I am today. But it was tough for me to go.

[Assistant] Tell us.

[User] I haven't talked very much about this, but the night before I left, I spent the night in the same hotel in San Jose that they put us up. It's a better hotel. And I said I spent that night by myself and I sat in bed and it was. I knew. It was time to leave. It took an emotional toll on me that I didn't really realize so much, like you'd think I did. But that night I just said, jeez, I don't think I can stay here another day. I just had to get out, I had to go home. And I had been home, it wasn't like I'd spent three years away from home. You know, my parents sent me plane tickets, I'd come back home for a few days around Christmas, maybe, or holidays. They live in Florida so I can fly right to Miami and they'd pick me up. I'd be home in three hours by car once they got there. In one 24 hour period, I made sure that I rode a boat, a horse, a motorcycle, a car, and an airplane. I worked that out.

[Assistant] To go back to?

[User] The boat was the hard one, but I did everything. I think I got that horse, matter of fact, I had to get that horse in the afternoon to make it work. Yeah, that was kind of funny.

[Assistant] OK, so what about the last day in your town? Do you remember that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, another guy I knew he lost his job in the mortgage business because our biggest mortgage company in Florida closed. He had five thousand dollars and I was forty five thousand dollars in debt to it and to a senile old lady. Probably didn't even remember she had loaned me the money. And I said, we can do something. We can do this, this repping business. We can sell stuff. We were too young and stupid to know that you couldn't do that. And so we did it and we built a very nice business and I paid her off every penny. So we bought a rather large repping firm in the Southeast and in four states out of Texas, so I was successful there. But I think the success in the Peace Corps really, really translated to this idea that I could do, I could do anything I really put my mind to. Nothing's going to stop me. Yes, it was.

[Assistant] So the next question is evaluate your service in light of the three goals of Peace Corps. So the first goal is to provide technical assistance.

[User] A-plus.

[Assistant] Would you like to care to talk more about that?

[User] Well, I think I did.

[Assistant] OK. And then the second is to help promote better understanding of Americans by others. How did you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A-plus.

[Assistant] Would you like to care to talk more about that?

[User] Well, I think I did.

[Assistant] OK. And then the second is to help promote better understanding of Americans by others. How did you do that?

[User] Well, I'll tell you a story. It's a great story. When the man, when we walked on the moon, I happened to be in a meeting with my co-op in one of the shacks, uninhabited shacks, because the family had left or something. Dirt floor, windows, no windows, doors making windows, no glass or open. The tin roof was hot. There was somebody bought a radio, battery operated radio, which is all they had, no TVs. There was no electricity. And when he walked on the moon that the American announcer was doing it and there was a Spanish speaking announcer talking, translating, so I could hear part of the English and then the Spanish. And when he said he's on the moon, there must have been, I think, eight guys who were there. And they just turned and looked at me. What a connection. Jesus, I was on the moon, I was on the moon, I was an American and I was there. They looked at me like, wow, that was pretty cool.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I went to town that night. One of the young ladies with the babies who'd give me the other side of the house said that the God was going to, you know, God didn't like that. I don't know what she said. Whatever. Well, all right.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So that's the understanding. And I have other, you know, there's a lot of connection in three years of Costa Rica. There's all kinds of Costa Ricans. Parts are the guys from the other political party that didn't like the land reform bill, they were friends of mine. Really good friends of mine, and, I mean, I could talk about all kinds of different people, levels of interaction. You know, people had restaurants, people with the coldest beer in town, people who, a painter who couldn't say my name for three years. Hola, Bush! Called me Bush, couldn't say Bruce. You know, kids I played soccer with. The guy who worked at the wood factory. So, I mean, just a million people, you know, I was out there, I didn't hide.

[Assistant] So on the opposite end, how did you promote understanding of Costa Ricans to your American friends and family?

[User] Just by kind of talking about Ticos. I mean, they're a very special breed of people, they are.

[Assistant] So what did you tell them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's the understanding. And I have other, you know, there's a lot of connection in three years of Costa Rica. There's all kinds of Costa Ricans. Parts are the guys from the other political party that didn't like the land reform bill, they were friends of mine. Really good friends of mine, and, I mean, I could talk about all kinds of different people, levels of interaction. You know, people had restaurants, people with the coldest beer in town, people who, a painter who couldn't say my name for three years. Hola, Bush! Called me Bush, couldn't say Bruce. You know, kids I played soccer with. The guy who worked at the wood factory. So, I mean, just a million people, you know, I was out there, I didn't hide.

[Assistant] So on the opposite end, how did you promote understanding of Costa Ricans to your American friends and family?

[User] Just by kind of talking about Ticos. I mean, they're a very special breed of people, they are.

[Assistant] So what did you tell them?

[User] Well, they're very, very pacifico. They're very peaceful people, very pro-American. They're very proud of their democracy. They're very proud that they don't have an army. They're very proud that they produce more teachers and export teachers to all over Latin America. They're proud of the friendship that America has with them. The beauty of the land, I mean, it's a tiny, tiny country. I don't know, in a jet plane it may take you minutes to go from one coast to another once you're rocking and rolling up in the air. And there are four or five different types of zones there, deserts and jungles and mountains and volcanoes and Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean coasts. Crazy deep rivers. The world's second rivers. I mean, it's, for a tiny country it's got a lot of power.

[Assistant] So just a couple more questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just by kind of talking about Ticos. I mean, they're a very special breed of people, they are.

[Assistant] So what did you tell them?

[User] Well, they're very, very pacifico. They're very peaceful people, very pro-American. They're very proud of their democracy. They're very proud that they don't have an army. They're very proud that they produce more teachers and export teachers to all over Latin America. They're proud of the friendship that America has with them. The beauty of the land, I mean, it's a tiny, tiny country. I don't know, in a jet plane it may take you minutes to go from one coast to another once you're rocking and rolling up in the air. And there are four or five different types of zones there, deserts and jungles and mountains and volcanoes and Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean coasts. Crazy deep rivers. The world's second rivers. I mean, it's, for a tiny country it's got a lot of power.

[Assistant] So just a couple more questions.

[User] It's OK. I'm enjoying talking about myself, I didn't know that.

[Assistant] So I think you've answered some of these, so let me go through this. I know you're here for a reunion of your group. So do you have any other continuing Peace Corps involvement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they're very, very pacifico. They're very peaceful people, very pro-American. They're very proud of their democracy. They're very proud that they don't have an army. They're very proud that they produce more teachers and export teachers to all over Latin America. They're proud of the friendship that America has with them. The beauty of the land, I mean, it's a tiny, tiny country. I don't know, in a jet plane it may take you minutes to go from one coast to another once you're rocking and rolling up in the air. And there are four or five different types of zones there, deserts and jungles and mountains and volcanoes and Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean coasts. Crazy deep rivers. The world's second rivers. I mean, it's, for a tiny country it's got a lot of power.

[Assistant] So just a couple more questions.

[User] It's OK. I'm enjoying talking about myself, I didn't know that.

[Assistant] So I think you've answered some of these, so let me go through this. I know you're here for a reunion of your group. So do you have any other continuing Peace Corps involvement?

[User] Well, over the years, I've done Peace Corps Day at school, for my daughter's school. You know, I go in with some pottery from Costa Rica and a picture and some different artifacts I have, Costa Rican things, and talk about. Peace Corps as a packet they'll send you. You can talk about that. I've done stuff like that. I volunteer a lot of stuff, you know, so we're just going off from my volunteer all the time. We were in the classroom all the time. For my daughter now, and she likes, she goes to an acting, she does a lot of acting actually, and so does my wife now, in Portland. And we do a lot of volunteering there at the acting school. My daughter doesn't go to the school academically for that, but for extracurricular activities. So the volunteerism, you know, is there.

[Assistant] So last but not least, what effect has your Peace Corps service had on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's OK. I'm enjoying talking about myself, I didn't know that.

[Assistant] So I think you've answered some of these, so let me go through this. I know you're here for a reunion of your group. So do you have any other continuing Peace Corps involvement?

[User] Well, over the years, I've done Peace Corps Day at school, for my daughter's school. You know, I go in with some pottery from Costa Rica and a picture and some different artifacts I have, Costa Rican things, and talk about. Peace Corps as a packet they'll send you. You can talk about that. I've done stuff like that. I volunteer a lot of stuff, you know, so we're just going off from my volunteer all the time. We were in the classroom all the time. For my daughter now, and she likes, she goes to an acting, she does a lot of acting actually, and so does my wife now, in Portland. And we do a lot of volunteering there at the acting school. My daughter doesn't go to the school academically for that, but for extracurricular activities. So the volunteerism, you know, is there.

[Assistant] So last but not least, what effect has your Peace Corps service had on you?

[User] Actually, yeah, it taught me I could be successful. It taught me Spanish. It taught me about a whole culture of people, geography. A lot about myself. So a huge impact.

[Assistant] Did it change your career goals at all? I know you said you're a liberal arts major in college. I'm sure that had a direction specifically.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To save a little funds once in a while, I do a little bartering with people in the community. Yesterday I agreed to spray the barber’s lawn in town and get rid of the dandelions in exchange for four haircuts this summer. So I’m keeping very busy.

[Assistant] Yeah, sounds like you're still in an extended Peace Corps, Wayne.

[User] Yeah, every day I don’t know how I got things done before. I have a to-do list, every Monday morning I scratch off one and start a new one. And it just keeps me busy.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's sort of what I think, too. You know, I just retired last year and it's like, holy cow, I ever work. The next question is, I want you to think about back to the year before you joined the Peace Corps and talk about what you were doing then and you know how you came to decide to join the Peace Corps. Were you were you at university before you joined?

[User] University of North Dakota and sort of undecided decided, you know what, I really wanted to get my degree and I was working in ag economics for a while, and then ag education and just wasn't certain where I wanted to end up. So I had just completed my second year of college when I went to a workshop in Denver, Colorado, where Sargent Shriver spoke about Peace Corps and made one of his pitches about getting people involved. And I had grown up with a farming family with seven brothers and a sister, and I grew up in the National Farmers Union and the National Farmers Union had started working with the Peace Corps, Dr. Eklin putting together a program for Bolivia. And I picked up pieces of that as we went along. And I guess that I applied and ended up getting accepted for Bolivia.

[Assistant] Ok, so basically the reason you joined is because you were wanting to do something and you have heard about it at the right time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought, well, I guess I did not at the beginning, but communication went on and as I recall, that became more specific because National Farmers Union was working on this project to go to Bolivia. And I said I would be willing to serve in that project. So then it finally became more specific.

[Assistant] So think back about your friends and families reactions when you went into the Peace Corps. What did they think?

[User] Oh, I think they were very supportive of the idea. That was they thought, well, we've got a couple of children going in the military or stay in college or go to the Peace Corps and see what's out there on the other side of the pond. And I had a couple of uncles that had served in the military and came back all busted up and I wasn't too keen about that kind of life. And an older brother that was in the Air Force came back somewhat of an alcoholic and a frustrated person. And it didn’t appear to be the kind of life that I wanted to live for a while.

[Assistant] Yeah. OK, so what was so basically your family was fine with your decision, right?

[User] Yeah, my family was very supportive, especially my mother and my father was very supportive. I mean, with you know, they were having a tough time making ends meet. But your college bills and we were and, you know, I earned most of my own money. And so it wasn't something that we had, you know, my father wasn't earning enough to educate all of us kids. That day, if you want to go, go.

[Assistant] As long as we don't have to pay for it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my family was very supportive, especially my mother and my father was very supportive. I mean, with you know, they were having a tough time making ends meet. But your college bills and we were and, you know, I earned most of my own money. And so it wasn't something that we had, you know, my father wasn't earning enough to educate all of us kids. That day, if you want to go, go.

[Assistant] As long as we don't have to pay for it.

[User] You’ll have a little money when you come back. And it was, you know, at that time, $4000 was a lot. It's enough to buy a new Chevy.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, I've only bought one new car in my life.

[Assistant] Is that right? Were you at all hesitant? It doesn't sound like you were hesitant to join the Peace Corps once you got the information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’ll have a little money when you come back. And it was, you know, at that time, $4000 was a lot. It's enough to buy a new Chevy.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, I've only bought one new car in my life.

[Assistant] Is that right? Were you at all hesitant? It doesn't sound like you were hesitant to join the Peace Corps once you got the information.

[User] No, I don't think I was very open to the whole fact. I was excited about doing something different and moving out of North Dakota, which is great. I've always thought North Dakota was a great place to be from, far from. And this gave me an opportunity to see more and do more. I’ve always been a people person. I like being around people.

[Assistant] So since you were invited to join this project with the National Farmers Union, how did you go about preparing yourself and your family for the two years that Peace Corps service? Did you do anything special?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think I was very open to the whole fact. I was excited about doing something different and moving out of North Dakota, which is great. I've always thought North Dakota was a great place to be from, far from. And this gave me an opportunity to see more and do more. I’ve always been a people person. I like being around people.

[Assistant] So since you were invited to join this project with the National Farmers Union, how did you go about preparing yourself and your family for the two years that Peace Corps service? Did you do anything special?

[User] Oh, I don't really recall actually doing anything special other than kind of fill it up from, you know, go through the waiting game, and it could happen and, you know, you need to have other alternatives have one more chance for another job somewhere along the line.

[Assistant] Ok, so.

[User] It got a little bit complicated too because Marj came along with her fluttering eyes.

[Assistant] Did you know her before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don't really recall actually doing anything special other than kind of fill it up from, you know, go through the waiting game, and it could happen and, you know, you need to have other alternatives have one more chance for another job somewhere along the line.

[Assistant] Ok, so.

[User] It got a little bit complicated too because Marj came along with her fluttering eyes.

[Assistant] Did you know her before?

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Did you know her before you went into Peace Corps training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It got a little bit complicated too because Marj came along with her fluttering eyes.

[Assistant] Did you know her before?

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Did you know her before you went into Peace Corps training?

[User] Yes, I did. I knew her a year and a half or two years at least before they joined Peace Corps. And we met a couple of different times at school and meeting and I was dating one of her earlier friends or whatever. So one thing led to another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk about training. That's always a biggie. What did you think about the training program there in Arizona?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pardon?

[Assistant] Did you know her before you went into Peace Corps training?

[User] Yes, I did. I knew her a year and a half or two years at least before they joined Peace Corps. And we met a couple of different times at school and meeting and I was dating one of her earlier friends or whatever. So one thing led to another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk about training. That's always a biggie. What did you think about the training program there in Arizona?

[User] I thought it was hot. I thought it was rigorous and I think it was very well done. It was probably a little heavy on some of the anthropological stuff, working with the American Indians. And we all know it was an excellent program and I really enjoyed it. You know, I know a lot of social dynamics, kinds of things, and I recall a lot of tension every Thursday and Friday before the letters came out. We're going to be there or not. Yeah, I think it was the yellow slip you were still there, and if it was a pink you were to pick up your documents and go home.

[Assistant] And what was interesting, you know, I would not even aware of those days. I mean, I guess I had my head in the clouds. But anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. I knew her a year and a half or two years at least before they joined Peace Corps. And we met a couple of different times at school and meeting and I was dating one of her earlier friends or whatever. So one thing led to another.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk about training. That's always a biggie. What did you think about the training program there in Arizona?

[User] I thought it was hot. I thought it was rigorous and I think it was very well done. It was probably a little heavy on some of the anthropological stuff, working with the American Indians. And we all know it was an excellent program and I really enjoyed it. You know, I know a lot of social dynamics, kinds of things, and I recall a lot of tension every Thursday and Friday before the letters came out. We're going to be there or not. Yeah, I think it was the yellow slip you were still there, and if it was a pink you were to pick up your documents and go home.

[Assistant] And what was interesting, you know, I would not even aware of those days. I mean, I guess I had my head in the clouds. But anyway.

[User] I remember quite clearly a couple of people were washed out. One of them was actually a neighbor of mine in North Dakota. You know, got his yellow slip or pink slip or whatever it was. No time to talk to anybody, you know, kind of like, just out of there.

[Assistant] Were there any, did you have any disappointments about how the training went or anything that was you especially enjoyed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought it was hot. I thought it was rigorous and I think it was very well done. It was probably a little heavy on some of the anthropological stuff, working with the American Indians. And we all know it was an excellent program and I really enjoyed it. You know, I know a lot of social dynamics, kinds of things, and I recall a lot of tension every Thursday and Friday before the letters came out. We're going to be there or not. Yeah, I think it was the yellow slip you were still there, and if it was a pink you were to pick up your documents and go home.

[Assistant] And what was interesting, you know, I would not even aware of those days. I mean, I guess I had my head in the clouds. But anyway.

[User] I remember quite clearly a couple of people were washed out. One of them was actually a neighbor of mine in North Dakota. You know, got his yellow slip or pink slip or whatever it was. No time to talk to anybody, you know, kind of like, just out of there.

[Assistant] Were there any, did you have any disappointments about how the training went or anything that was you especially enjoyed?

[User] Well, I think I enjoyed when we had kind of one on one time with the Maricopa people. Often times there was a bigger group and an anthropologist and whoever was, between us and keeping the dialog going. But I was able to sit down with somebody and dangle my feet in an irrigation ditch and talk about who they are, where they’re going, what’s happening, and their lives. Like I got to know them a lot better. That’s what I really enjoyed.

[Assistant] Did you feel that the training prepared you for what you were going to be doing in Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember quite clearly a couple of people were washed out. One of them was actually a neighbor of mine in North Dakota. You know, got his yellow slip or pink slip or whatever it was. No time to talk to anybody, you know, kind of like, just out of there.

[Assistant] Were there any, did you have any disappointments about how the training went or anything that was you especially enjoyed?

[User] Well, I think I enjoyed when we had kind of one on one time with the Maricopa people. Often times there was a bigger group and an anthropologist and whoever was, between us and keeping the dialog going. But I was able to sit down with somebody and dangle my feet in an irrigation ditch and talk about who they are, where they’re going, what’s happening, and their lives. Like I got to know them a lot better. That’s what I really enjoyed.

[Assistant] Did you feel that the training prepared you for what you were going to be doing in Bolivia?

[User] Um, as far as the cross-cultural, perhaps yes. But as far as technical stuff, no. They did a wonderful job of making sure we were all in very good physical condition. I’ll never forget getting up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

[Assistant] I think the Indians thought we were nuts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I enjoyed when we had kind of one on one time with the Maricopa people. Often times there was a bigger group and an anthropologist and whoever was, between us and keeping the dialog going. But I was able to sit down with somebody and dangle my feet in an irrigation ditch and talk about who they are, where they’re going, what’s happening, and their lives. Like I got to know them a lot better. That’s what I really enjoyed.

[Assistant] Did you feel that the training prepared you for what you were going to be doing in Bolivia?

[User] Um, as far as the cross-cultural, perhaps yes. But as far as technical stuff, no. They did a wonderful job of making sure we were all in very good physical condition. I’ll never forget getting up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

[Assistant] I think the Indians thought we were nuts.

[User] That's right. I think the Indians thought we were nuts but we were certainly in pretty good shape. We had a couple old timers who didn’t run but they were out there doing it. Some guys that were in extremely good physical condition, and some other ones you just couldn't keep up with. Or I couldn’t with my short legs.

[Assistant] Okay, well, let's go on. This group has such a unique background because then the next thing is we have all different stages of training. Like what did you think of Puerto Rico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, as far as the cross-cultural, perhaps yes. But as far as technical stuff, no. They did a wonderful job of making sure we were all in very good physical condition. I’ll never forget getting up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

[Assistant] I think the Indians thought we were nuts.

[User] That's right. I think the Indians thought we were nuts but we were certainly in pretty good shape. We had a couple old timers who didn’t run but they were out there doing it. Some guys that were in extremely good physical condition, and some other ones you just couldn't keep up with. Or I couldn’t with my short legs.

[Assistant] Okay, well, let's go on. This group has such a unique background because then the next thing is we have all different stages of training. Like what did you think of Puerto Rico?

[User] I really enjoyed Puerto Rico. I thought that was an excellent example of, you know, suddenly we're in a different culture and we don't need another language. And speaking Spanish really made sense versus what we were learning. And it was a test to try it. And it took a little while before we really got out to other people other than other language instructors at the training camps. But all in all, I enjoyed the cultural part of Puerto Rico very, very much. And I remember extremely clearly the little hikes we had to do in the overnight trips and how different people have of that and and had fun with another one. Extremely frustrating, not knowing what to do when they didn’t have a flush toilet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, what can you think? Did you do you remember that hike across the island?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. I think the Indians thought we were nuts but we were certainly in pretty good shape. We had a couple old timers who didn’t run but they were out there doing it. Some guys that were in extremely good physical condition, and some other ones you just couldn't keep up with. Or I couldn’t with my short legs.

[Assistant] Okay, well, let's go on. This group has such a unique background because then the next thing is we have all different stages of training. Like what did you think of Puerto Rico?

[User] I really enjoyed Puerto Rico. I thought that was an excellent example of, you know, suddenly we're in a different culture and we don't need another language. And speaking Spanish really made sense versus what we were learning. And it was a test to try it. And it took a little while before we really got out to other people other than other language instructors at the training camps. But all in all, I enjoyed the cultural part of Puerto Rico very, very much. And I remember extremely clearly the little hikes we had to do in the overnight trips and how different people have of that and and had fun with another one. Extremely frustrating, not knowing what to do when they didn’t have a flush toilet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, what can you think? Did you do you remember that hike across the island?

[User] Yes, I remember that extremely well and I remember actually taking a shortcut.

[Assistant] Well, I think a lot of people did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really enjoyed Puerto Rico. I thought that was an excellent example of, you know, suddenly we're in a different culture and we don't need another language. And speaking Spanish really made sense versus what we were learning. And it was a test to try it. And it took a little while before we really got out to other people other than other language instructors at the training camps. But all in all, I enjoyed the cultural part of Puerto Rico very, very much. And I remember extremely clearly the little hikes we had to do in the overnight trips and how different people have of that and and had fun with another one. Extremely frustrating, not knowing what to do when they didn’t have a flush toilet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, what can you think? Did you do you remember that hike across the island?

[User] Yes, I remember that extremely well and I remember actually taking a shortcut.

[Assistant] Well, I think a lot of people did.

[User] A couple of guys I was with actually hitchhiked and caught a bus to, I don't know what it was, but we got a free ride to the point where we were forced to go and did a lot of kicking back.

[Assistant] Well, you know, I always sort of think that part of the adaption process, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I remember that extremely well and I remember actually taking a shortcut.

[Assistant] Well, I think a lot of people did.

[User] A couple of guys I was with actually hitchhiked and caught a bus to, I don't know what it was, but we got a free ride to the point where we were forced to go and did a lot of kicking back.

[Assistant] Well, you know, I always sort of think that part of the adaption process, you know.

[User] I thought, you know, I think we sat down and realized, what are we going to burn? And also walking for two days to get where we’re going. And so we took the shortcut and got to close to where we were supposed to be and camped out this way for a day or a half a day and this way for half a day, and experienced as many things as we could, besides just walking down a path.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez, you remember Mayaguez when we went up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of guys I was with actually hitchhiked and caught a bus to, I don't know what it was, but we got a free ride to the point where we were forced to go and did a lot of kicking back.

[Assistant] Well, you know, I always sort of think that part of the adaption process, you know.

[User] I thought, you know, I think we sat down and realized, what are we going to burn? And also walking for two days to get where we’re going. And so we took the shortcut and got to close to where we were supposed to be and camped out this way for a day or a half a day and this way for half a day, and experienced as many things as we could, besides just walking down a path.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez, you remember Mayaguez when we went up there?

[User] I remember that more of the university kind of setting long ago. I don't remember so much about it, but it was pretty dedicated to the language and cross-cultural stuff.

[Assistant] I remember the beach.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought, you know, I think we sat down and realized, what are we going to burn? And also walking for two days to get where we’re going. And so we took the shortcut and got to close to where we were supposed to be and camped out this way for a day or a half a day and this way for half a day, and experienced as many things as we could, besides just walking down a path.

[Assistant] What about Mayaguez, you remember Mayaguez when we went up there?

[User] I remember that more of the university kind of setting long ago. I don't remember so much about it, but it was pretty dedicated to the language and cross-cultural stuff.

[Assistant] I remember the beach.

[User] I don’t remember jumps and all that. So that was a positive experience.

[Assistant] It was kind of a holding pattern. Yeah, OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember that more of the university kind of setting long ago. I don't remember so much about it, but it was pretty dedicated to the language and cross-cultural stuff.

[Assistant] I remember the beach.

[User] I don’t remember jumps and all that. So that was a positive experience.

[Assistant] It was kind of a holding pattern. Yeah, OK.

[User] The other stuff, when we were out drown proofing and rappelling and having fun helping each other, and that to me was very enjoyable. And part of it, I do tie knots and, you know, I do a lot of different things. I so, you know, I had some things to offer and help some folks.

[Assistant] Then we went home. What did your family and how did you feel when you got home? You were trying to get ready to go after the training to go to Bolivia. Can you talk about that a little?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember jumps and all that. So that was a positive experience.

[Assistant] It was kind of a holding pattern. Yeah, OK.

[User] The other stuff, when we were out drown proofing and rappelling and having fun helping each other, and that to me was very enjoyable. And part of it, I do tie knots and, you know, I do a lot of different things. I so, you know, I had some things to offer and help some folks.

[Assistant] Then we went home. What did your family and how did you feel when you got home? You were trying to get ready to go after the training to go to Bolivia. Can you talk about that a little?

[User] Well, family, you know, there were some real loop hole types of things. And I like I you know, one little thing was that you’re not accepted until the last 10 days to get through training. And because I thought it would be something and I think about half of, you know, we hadn’t gotten any drop outs or whatever and so on that. And I was also getting married so I had all those things up in the aid. Wedding invitations couldn't go out until we were both accepted. So phone call went to the mother in law saying, yes we’re coming home and we plan to get married on this date. So the family rushing around and getting things ready for the wedding. And there was a total of three hundred dollars. And so a lot of what was happening this time with family and friends gathered for our wedding. And we’re standing around in the church basement, opening presents and knowing that they'd all have to go with the attic of my father in law's house until we got back. The barrister would not leave the basement of the church, just hanging around. And finally, I realized, he needed, the custom was, to give him a bit of money so he could go home. So we didn't have any money. We had to open some presents to give him cash so they can get on with their life. I remember that very clearly.

[Assistant] Yeah. None of us had any money then, did we?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, family, you know, there were some real loop hole types of things. And I like I you know, one little thing was that you’re not accepted until the last 10 days to get through training. And because I thought it would be something and I think about half of, you know, we hadn’t gotten any drop outs or whatever and so on that. And I was also getting married so I had all those things up in the aid. Wedding invitations couldn't go out until we were both accepted. So phone call went to the mother in law saying, yes we’re coming home and we plan to get married on this date. So the family rushing around and getting things ready for the wedding. And there was a total of three hundred dollars. And so a lot of what was happening this time with family and friends gathered for our wedding. And we’re standing around in the church basement, opening presents and knowing that they'd all have to go with the attic of my father in law's house until we got back. The barrister would not leave the basement of the church, just hanging around. And finally, I realized, he needed, the custom was, to give him a bit of money so he could go home. So we didn't have any money. We had to open some presents to give him cash so they can get on with their life. I remember that very clearly.

[Assistant] Yeah. None of us had any money then, did we?

[User] No, we didn’t, didn’t have anything. What I had I kind of spent on getting my family together. And we had, you know, by a two year supply or whatever it was. We didn't have that much time at home. I think it was nine days or something. Including getting married and trying to figure out which car to decorate three, to make sure they got the right one. And I still like.

[Assistant] They couldn't fool you. All right, let's talk about Bolivia now. Are you there?

[User] Yes, I am.

[Assistant] When we first got what were your impressions? When we first got to Bolivia, we started in La Paz, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn’t, didn’t have anything. What I had I kind of spent on getting my family together. And we had, you know, by a two year supply or whatever it was. We didn't have that much time at home. I think it was nine days or something. Including getting married and trying to figure out which car to decorate three, to make sure they got the right one. And I still like.

[Assistant] They couldn't fool you. All right, let's talk about Bolivia now. Are you there?

[User] Yes, I am.

[Assistant] When we first got what were your impressions? When we first got to Bolivia, we started in La Paz, I guess.

[User] We started in La Paz and my impressions were, my gosh this place is high and desert looking at the airport. And I remember picking up a couple of suitcases and heading toward the terminal and just getting a pretty good pace didn’t make it, ended up with a bloody nose. I had a little altitude sickness the first 24 hours. I really remember being pretty bummed out, because I just didn't have the strength and energy until I got a little bit acclimatized. I started off too fast.

[Assistant] You ignored what they said about taking it slow?