[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No real lows. I think if you look at lessons learned, even though we had established a collaborative medical research effort with the Russians over the years, and it had its high points and low points, it probably would have benefited our research and researchers had we forged some tighter agreements to begin with. We flew microgravity equipments which were not always located in a microgravity environment, but we knew that was going to be a problem from the Russian researchers who don't enjoy a close relationship with the companies, like Energia and so forth. They're not always a prime player. It's a difference in our definition of who the customer is.\n\n So, knowing that the Russian investigators themselves were having some problems, probably it should have alerted us that we might as well, but I think we've taught the Russians something about the importance of research and controlling the variables, understanding the environment, being able to document it, and how we treat our customers and researchers. So while I feel for some of our researchers who didn't get their data, what they went through was a contributing lesson to how we can improve that cultural attitude for the International Space Station.

[Assistant] Hundreds of people were involved, but at the same time so much was done in such a little bit of time. Do you see more and more being able to be accomplished in the next few years for Phase Two?

[User] With the Russians?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think that's going to depend entirely on the Russian economic system. I think that's probably what the Russians will tell you and have told me. They are right now in a position of really determining what their funding's going to be for their space program and for their companies. That will affect how we do business in the future. Their researchers right now are very tight on funds. We are helping to fund joint research such as medical research in Russia, but they're going to have to eventually do that themselves. Phase Two, they will have to develop the processes for peer review equipment selection, manifesting, and operations on the Space Station.

[Assistant] And during Phase One, you felt that the sharing of information between the two international partners, it flowed? Was it fair?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was very dependent on the circumstances and spotty. And I wouldn't have expected anything else. We're talking about a country that was under Communism for 70 years. It would have been very naive to think, well, we'll sign an agreement and you can change an entire mental outlook on people and life and politics overnight. It just wasn't going to happen. We were told that in our cultural training classes. I was told that by my friends in Star City. One of them would always say, "Now, Bonnie." [Russian phrase] Okay. This is how it really is. And this is why it is. We couldn't just take our motives and lay them over like a template on the Russians. We had to understand what was making them think this way, what historically motivated them.\n\n So, no, we didn't always get the information we need. We didn't always ask the right question. That's one of the things that I learned: you have to ask the right question if you expect even close to the right answer. It doesn't mean they were hiding anything intentionally, but that's how it worked. So those are the kinds of things that we're learning, the cultural differences, how to read each other, what's really intended, and how to share a common outcome and understand what that means in terms of the program.

[Assistant] Are you planning a trip back soon to visit?

[User] Well, whatever my management decides to do.

[Assistant] Whatever your future is planned for you.

[User] I believe Salihzan is right now planning a trip for the entire crew to come to Uzbekistan, and I know he's working that with General [Yuri] Glazkov at Star City.

[Assistant] I hope it's an enjoyable one for you. At least you won't have to go and train, and you'll already have the language. I think about how much you've accomplished in just two years for this one project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, whatever my management decides to do.

[Assistant] Whatever your future is planned for you.

[User] I believe Salihzan is right now planning a trip for the entire crew to come to Uzbekistan, and I know he's working that with General [Yuri] Glazkov at Star City.

[Assistant] I hope it's an enjoyable one for you. At least you won't have to go and train, and you'll already have the language. I think about how much you've accomplished in just two years for this one project.

[User] Well, it's actually four years. Four years. Yes, and again I think there are some unsung heroes here. There was a lot of behind-the-scenes work prior to 1993 or it wouldn't have happened. Some of the people that were involved were Mr. Abbey and Dr. Arnold Nicogossian and Dr. Huntoon and some of the other people in the medical area that are here, that, despite the Cold War, were still having dialogue with fairly influential people within the Russian establishment.

[Assistant] I know you must be very fulfilled. I would use the word "proud," but you seem very humble. So I know that you've got to be very proud and very fulfilled by the things you've been able to do. I know your future is going to have a whole lot more planned for you. Thanks for sharing what you have. Is there anything else that you'd like to add from your viewpoint that you'd like as part of the whole project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the focus tends to be on the crew members, and in particular that have flown or had backup roles. But we've had crew members who have served in Russia, the deputy of operations. I don't know if you're going to interview them. But I think they're an important part of the program.\n\n We had a tremendous number of the science people who were in Russia with us, and we talked to some of those. An astronaut now, but a former researcher, Dr. Peggy Whitson, spent a lot of long hours with us and made it work for Norm and I. Without her and her people, we would have had a much harder time with procedures and just equipment training and development. So there were a lot of people that made it work.\n\n Flight Director Bob Castle and the work that he did in developing relationships with Victor Blagov, I think is very important. My boss, Dave Leestma, who is a very quiet guy, but just ensuring that we would have astronauts there, I mean, he was pretty persuasive with me. [Laughter] So there are a lot of good people that help make these programs work.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like you have too many regrets.

[User] Oh, I have no regrets except that I have not flown on the Station yet. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Yet. [Laughter]

[User] And that I'm still in the process of sharing what I learned. I have all this wonderful information on systems and designs and so forth, and I'm trying my best to ensure we have good dialogue.

[Assistant] I have a couple of questions, one that I can't avoid asking since you worked with foot restraints and other things on earlier missions. Can you talk about how the Russians viewed restraints and how the Shuttle and then what we'll evolve to in Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can only speculate based on information I have and when the opportunities are. I think that I saw one chart that said based on where the planets are, that the first opportunity would be like 2011 at the earliest, which means we need to start within the next couple of years seriously planning it and then determining how we test equipment on the Space Station. It would almost have to be early testing if we plan to complete 2002, 2004 for all the final modules. So we need to be thinking about it now if we want to make that window.

[Assistant] And you get your chance to get there. [Laughter]

[User] I will probably be too old to go. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We don't know now what's going to happen between now and then, you know.

[User] I had volunteered to go as an elderly postmenopausal woman. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And you might be the only one on that list.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I will probably be too old to go. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We don't know now what's going to happen between now and then, you know.

[User] I had volunteered to go as an elderly postmenopausal woman. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And you might be the only one on that list.

[User] I've even offered to take a one-way ticket. [Laughter] Many of the early explorers didn't expect to come back, although I'm sure that Lewis and Clark expected to come back. They were gone quite a long time. People that went out into the middle of Africa, I'm not sure ever expected to return to England.

[Assistant] Speaking of trips, I guess I have to ask, have you had a chance to be back home in those fields of the Northwest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had volunteered to go as an elderly postmenopausal woman. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And you might be the only one on that list.

[User] I've even offered to take a one-way ticket. [Laughter] Many of the early explorers didn't expect to come back, although I'm sure that Lewis and Clark expected to come back. They were gone quite a long time. People that went out into the middle of Africa, I'm not sure ever expected to return to England.

[Assistant] Speaking of trips, I guess I have to ask, have you had a chance to be back home in those fields of the Northwest?

[User] Oh, yes. My parents still ranch, and I go back pretty frequently, as much as I can. We still have cattle and we brand about once a year.

[Assistant] Still look up at the stars?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've even offered to take a one-way ticket. [Laughter] Many of the early explorers didn't expect to come back, although I'm sure that Lewis and Clark expected to come back. They were gone quite a long time. People that went out into the middle of Africa, I'm not sure ever expected to return to England.

[Assistant] Speaking of trips, I guess I have to ask, have you had a chance to be back home in those fields of the Northwest?

[User] Oh, yes. My parents still ranch, and I go back pretty frequently, as much as I can. We still have cattle and we brand about once a year.

[Assistant] Still look up at the stars?

[User] Oh, absolutely, although it's getting harder. We now have in the Yakima Valley a lot of xenon lights at night, and it gets a little harder to see the stars. Civilization encroaching.

[Assistant] And what does your Marine father feel about you being up? Does he go out when you're up in the Shuttle and look for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. My parents still ranch, and I go back pretty frequently, as much as I can. We still have cattle and we brand about once a year.

[Assistant] Still look up at the stars?

[User] Oh, absolutely, although it's getting harder. We now have in the Yakima Valley a lot of xenon lights at night, and it gets a little harder to see the stars. Civilization encroaching.

[Assistant] And what does your Marine father feel about you being up? Does he go out when you're up in the Shuttle and look for you?

[User] They come to the launches. Oh, yes, they've always supported me and my brothers and sister in anything that we did. My parents have a very interesting attitude about life. They measure people by their character, and as long as we tried hard at what we were doing as good citizens, they didn't compare us. They're proud of what I do. They're proud of my sister, who's a teacher. And they're proud of my brothers. They love space, but there are other things that they measure us by.

[Assistant] At least when you're floating above, they know where you are.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely, although it's getting harder. We now have in the Yakima Valley a lot of xenon lights at night, and it gets a little harder to see the stars. Civilization encroaching.

[Assistant] And what does your Marine father feel about you being up? Does he go out when you're up in the Shuttle and look for you?

[User] They come to the launches. Oh, yes, they've always supported me and my brothers and sister in anything that we did. My parents have a very interesting attitude about life. They measure people by their character, and as long as we tried hard at what we were doing as good citizens, they didn't compare us. They're proud of what I do. They're proud of my sister, who's a teacher. And they're proud of my brothers. They love space, but there are other things that they measure us by.

[Assistant] At least when you're floating above, they know where you are.

[User] Absolutely. [Laughter]

[Assistant] They can keep an eye out on you. We thank you for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They come to the launches. Oh, yes, they've always supported me and my brothers and sister in anything that we did. My parents have a very interesting attitude about life. They measure people by their character, and as long as we tried hard at what we were doing as good citizens, they didn't compare us. They're proud of what I do. They're proud of my sister, who's a teacher. And they're proud of my brothers. They love space, but there are other things that they measure us by.

[Assistant] At least when you're floating above, they know where you are.

[User] Absolutely. [Laughter]

[Assistant] They can keep an eye out on you. We thank you for your time.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Appreciate it. Thanks.\n\n [Tape recorder turned off, then on again.]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With toast. And establish some relationships with the people there, and maybe they would think a little bit differently about women in their program.

[Assistant] I know you mentioned earlier you were asked to be the backup. Was there any chance or any talk at all that you would have a chance to fly after Norm?

[User] Yes, there was. In fact, I was asked if I wanted to fly the second flight. I was asked by the Director's office. I really would have wanted to, but at that time, because of the rapidity of leaving and so forth, there were some family strains involved in that, so I said yes the first time. I said, "I need to defer the second flight because I need to be back in the United States." But then I told them that I'd really consider the third flight, the third increment. Well, about the time they got ready to make that decision was when I was still under a medical consideration. So, I was willing to do it, I was asked to do it, but circumstances precluded it. So I've come back and flown two Shuttle flights.

[Assistant] I guess you had your own near-Mir experience. [Laughter]

[User] Near-Mir. [Laughter] I was very fortunate to have been on the first docking mission and the eighth docking mission, especially with Salihzan. I've had wonderful crews. Hoot Gibson was extraordinary as a commander. Terry Wilcutt was extraordinary as a commander. I really enjoyed working for both of them and the crews.

[Assistant] It must give you a good feeling when you see Kargapolov and all these folks when you're in those International Space Station meetings and you see them, knowing what they think of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was. In fact, I was asked if I wanted to fly the second flight. I was asked by the Director's office. I really would have wanted to, but at that time, because of the rapidity of leaving and so forth, there were some family strains involved in that, so I said yes the first time. I said, "I need to defer the second flight because I need to be back in the United States." But then I told them that I'd really consider the third flight, the third increment. Well, about the time they got ready to make that decision was when I was still under a medical consideration. So, I was willing to do it, I was asked to do it, but circumstances precluded it. So I've come back and flown two Shuttle flights.

[Assistant] I guess you had your own near-Mir experience. [Laughter]

[User] Near-Mir. [Laughter] I was very fortunate to have been on the first docking mission and the eighth docking mission, especially with Salihzan. I've had wonderful crews. Hoot Gibson was extraordinary as a commander. Terry Wilcutt was extraordinary as a commander. I really enjoyed working for both of them and the crews.

[Assistant] It must give you a good feeling when you see Kargapolov and all these folks when you're in those International Space Station meetings and you see them, knowing what they think of you.

[User] It feels good. Their head medical doctor now kisses my hand. I used to have that happen in Germany. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now we're moving on to the Russians.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Near-Mir. [Laughter] I was very fortunate to have been on the first docking mission and the eighth docking mission, especially with Salihzan. I've had wonderful crews. Hoot Gibson was extraordinary as a commander. Terry Wilcutt was extraordinary as a commander. I really enjoyed working for both of them and the crews.

[Assistant] It must give you a good feeling when you see Kargapolov and all these folks when you're in those International Space Station meetings and you see them, knowing what they think of you.

[User] It feels good. Their head medical doctor now kisses my hand. I used to have that happen in Germany. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now we're moving on to the Russians.

[User] Now moving on to the Russians. I don't even consider it sexist, because I know what it means.

[Assistant] Very respectful, isn't it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It feels good. Their head medical doctor now kisses my hand. I used to have that happen in Germany. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now we're moving on to the Russians.

[User] Now moving on to the Russians. I don't even consider it sexist, because I know what it means.

[Assistant] Very respectful, isn't it.

[User] I know what it means.

[Assistant] Especially to you. That was neat. I'm glad you shared that with us. Even in America, when the cosmonauts were here, were there experiences or times that you--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now moving on to the Russians. I don't even consider it sexist, because I know what it means.

[Assistant] Very respectful, isn't it.

[User] I know what it means.

[Assistant] Especially to you. That was neat. I'm glad you shared that with us. Even in America, when the cosmonauts were here, were there experiences or times that you--

[User] You did talk to Salihzan. I really enjoyed my time with him. He's a very unique individual. He was alone without his wife for a while, so I took him out to dinner a couple of times and we've had a chance to talk about his country. What I found so interesting that Salihzan and I shared, and I don't know if he told you, he grew up in a very rural area of Kyrgyzstan, and he was sitting out in the middle of the fields watching the airplanes go over and wanted to become a cosmonaut. My mind was really solidified the day I was doing some sort of manual labor and I looked up and saw this contrail. I knew it was following an airplane into the Yakima TACAN on its way to Seattle. I'd never been in an airplane. I was in high school. I said, "There's just something else for me," you know. "I want to be in that contrail." And we shared that together.

[Assistant] That was a nice connection.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know what it means.

[Assistant] Especially to you. That was neat. I'm glad you shared that with us. Even in America, when the cosmonauts were here, were there experiences or times that you--

[User] You did talk to Salihzan. I really enjoyed my time with him. He's a very unique individual. He was alone without his wife for a while, so I took him out to dinner a couple of times and we've had a chance to talk about his country. What I found so interesting that Salihzan and I shared, and I don't know if he told you, he grew up in a very rural area of Kyrgyzstan, and he was sitting out in the middle of the fields watching the airplanes go over and wanted to become a cosmonaut. My mind was really solidified the day I was doing some sort of manual labor and I looked up and saw this contrail. I knew it was following an airplane into the Yakima TACAN on its way to Seattle. I'd never been in an airplane. I was in high school. I said, "There's just something else for me," you know. "I want to be in that contrail." And we shared that together.

[Assistant] That was a nice connection.

[User] It was a very good connection.

[Assistant] No matter what language it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You did talk to Salihzan. I really enjoyed my time with him. He's a very unique individual. He was alone without his wife for a while, so I took him out to dinner a couple of times and we've had a chance to talk about his country. What I found so interesting that Salihzan and I shared, and I don't know if he told you, he grew up in a very rural area of Kyrgyzstan, and he was sitting out in the middle of the fields watching the airplanes go over and wanted to become a cosmonaut. My mind was really solidified the day I was doing some sort of manual labor and I looked up and saw this contrail. I knew it was following an airplane into the Yakima TACAN on its way to Seattle. I'd never been in an airplane. I was in high school. I said, "There's just something else for me," you know. "I want to be in that contrail." And we shared that together.

[Assistant] That was a nice connection.

[User] It was a very good connection.

[Assistant] No matter what language it is.

[User] What culture, what language, what gender. We had a common motivator that brought us to the same place at the same time.

[Assistant] Is there more that you want to do with the space? You've looked at all the experiments, your microgravity, it's the physics, all these different components. Is there something else that you want to do? Can you see an experiment or a function that would go on the International Space Station that you feel will benefit those folks, just based on all your experiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very good connection.

[Assistant] No matter what language it is.

[User] What culture, what language, what gender. We had a common motivator that brought us to the same place at the same time.

[Assistant] Is there more that you want to do with the space? You've looked at all the experiments, your microgravity, it's the physics, all these different components. Is there something else that you want to do? Can you see an experiment or a function that would go on the International Space Station that you feel will benefit those folks, just based on all your experiences?

[User] Well, nothing that hasn't probably already been addressed. I have the opportunity through a lot of different groups to make inputs. Some of them may not be so good. [Laughter] Some of them may be something someone hasn't thought about. Just having the opportunity to interact with them is good. I'll say, "Well, I saw this on this flight. Maybe this would help," or, "Did you know this group is doing this?" So maybe one of the benefits of the breadth of what I've done is being able to identify connections that can be made, that maybe haven't been made. I enjoy doing that.

[Assistant] Since we've talked off and on about women's issues while we've chatted with you, do you feel that that's something, now that the Russians have declared you a tough woman, that you'll be able to help at least other people see the issues that shouldn't affect women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. At that time, well, because I'm an old timer I guess, because they don't do that nowadays I guess, but maybe with some exceptions. But at that time, there was a big, you know, a big book full of profiles or project descriptions or whatever you call it, position descriptions. And you could kind of leaf through it. And I think maybe they could point you to particular areas of interest like education jobs, or maybe, I'm not sure if they had it organized by area of the world. But somehow I zeroed in on this particular position and it sounded interesting and it kind of overlapped with some of my prior training and etc.

[Assistant] So what did your family and friends think about you applying?

[User] Well, I mean, by then I had moved away from my home of Michigan. They knew I was pretty independent. You know, I had gone the route of growing the long hair and becoming, you know, sort of an activist in the hubbub of the antiwar and civil rights activities in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Back then, you know, they kind of knew I was somewhat marching to a different drum than what I was kind of, they'd probably hoped the direction I go in, but so I don't think.

[Assistant] So it fit.

[User] Yeah, I don't think it totally surprised them. I think my dear mother was, you know, understandably like probably every parent, concerned about my safety and health. But they, I think, basically they gave me my blessing, their blessing. And I always had their support, you know.

[Assistant] So you got accepted, I guess, quickly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, by then I had moved away from my home of Michigan. They knew I was pretty independent. You know, I had gone the route of growing the long hair and becoming, you know, sort of an activist in the hubbub of the antiwar and civil rights activities in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Back then, you know, they kind of knew I was somewhat marching to a different drum than what I was kind of, they'd probably hoped the direction I go in, but so I don't think.

[Assistant] So it fit.

[User] Yeah, I don't think it totally surprised them. I think my dear mother was, you know, understandably like probably every parent, concerned about my safety and health. But they, I think, basically they gave me my blessing, their blessing. And I always had their support, you know.

[Assistant] So you got accepted, I guess, quickly.

[User] Relatively.

[Assistant] Other people wait a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I don't think it totally surprised them. I think my dear mother was, you know, understandably like probably every parent, concerned about my safety and health. But they, I think, basically they gave me my blessing, their blessing. And I always had their support, you know.

[Assistant] So you got accepted, I guess, quickly.

[User] Relatively.

[Assistant] Other people wait a long time.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where was your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where was your training?

[User] We had whatever it was, three or four day training in Atlanta, I believe, or whatever they call that. Orientation.

[Assistant] And then?

[User] And then we were on a plane. And I was in a group of about 15 volunteers, unlike I think the trend currently in Peace Corps at that time. You know, it was a very mixed group, but we all worked under the Department of Community Development in The Gambia and had different jobs. I mean, several women volunteers were doing like day care center, quote, jobs, which and, you know, one of my buddies was, already was a civil engineer and I'm still very good friend with him. He was a civil engineer who was a hydrologist who was doing water resources projects like building little culverts and digging wells and that sort of thing. Three or four others were construction volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was a mix.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had whatever it was, three or four day training in Atlanta, I believe, or whatever they call that. Orientation.

[Assistant] And then?

[User] And then we were on a plane. And I was in a group of about 15 volunteers, unlike I think the trend currently in Peace Corps at that time. You know, it was a very mixed group, but we all worked under the Department of Community Development in The Gambia and had different jobs. I mean, several women volunteers were doing like day care center, quote, jobs, which and, you know, one of my buddies was, already was a civil engineer and I'm still very good friend with him. He was a civil engineer who was a hydrologist who was doing water resources projects like building little culverts and digging wells and that sort of thing. Three or four others were construction volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was a mix.

[User] It was a mix. And that was fine. I mean, I do understand Peace Corps is gone in this two directions where basically it's a more focused kind of strategy, but that's what our mix was.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we were on a plane. And I was in a group of about 15 volunteers, unlike I think the trend currently in Peace Corps at that time. You know, it was a very mixed group, but we all worked under the Department of Community Development in The Gambia and had different jobs. I mean, several women volunteers were doing like day care center, quote, jobs, which and, you know, one of my buddies was, already was a civil engineer and I'm still very good friend with him. He was a civil engineer who was a hydrologist who was doing water resources projects like building little culverts and digging wells and that sort of thing. Three or four others were construction volunteers.

[Assistant] So it was a mix.

[User] It was a mix. And that was fine. I mean, I do understand Peace Corps is gone in this two directions where basically it's a more focused kind of strategy, but that's what our mix was.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went in?

[User] I was the oldest of my cohort, and that was, I think I was 25 because I had.

[Assistant] And the rest of them were straight out of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty, almost, pretty much. And with a couple of exceptions. And I think the age difference, for me at that time, was really significant. For one, I had had more work experience and I also had a master's degree already and I'd been living on my own, you know, and I was. It was just who I am. I mean, for whatever number of reasons, I was very focused and kind of on a professional task. And there were several others that fit that mold, but a lot of the others were just like babes out of undergrad school. And not to say they didn't do well, but. And I also, that year, that was like the tail kind of getting toward the tail end of the Vietnam War era. And I think the difference between my experience during a very, like I entered as an undergrad in 1969 and that was still the civil rights era and the Vietnam era. It was very intense. And of course, I was in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which was a very.

[Assistant] Hotbed.

[User] Hotbed. And so I was exposed to a lot of that stuff. And most of the people in my group didn't have that kind of experience. And, you know, as a result, we kind of had different perspectives. I mean, it's not that we didn't get along, but I think I took, I had both a professional, some kind of professional skills and a kind of a mindset and a consciousness around kind of the political ramifications of Peace Corps work and what we were trying to do in The Gambia. And that did me well. I mean, I think I basically felt like I was taking this more seriously than the other ones. Most of the others, there were others that, like my hydrologist friend, he also had a master's and he was very professional about his work. I mean, we all had fun, but we said we were there to do a job.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you got to, I should know. What is the capital of The Gambia?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or what was the capital of The Gambia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or what was the capital of The Gambia?

[User] You're forgiven for not knowing, but it's Banjul.

[Assistant] Banjul.

[User]
And we, yeah, we flew in. You know, it was a very memorable, I still remember this very distinctly. You know, we flew, I think, through either LaGuardia or JFK via from Atlanta, I believe. And then, you know, it was an eight hour flight roughly. We first landed in Dakar. It was on September 1st, 1976. We landed. And as you come into Dakar and, you know, it's like an overnight flight, you come in and it's very dramatic because you come in and the sun is just rising, more or less, when the, just barely dawn. And what you first see actually is a lighthouse, which is on the very westernmost tip of Africa, flashing, and you're looking out the window and you look down. And it's just very dramatic, like Africa, you know, like we made it. We're going to make it.

And we, you know, we transferred to the Dakar airport and ended up sleepy eyed and groggy in what was then the earlier version of the what is now an international airport. But at that time, it's called Yundum International Airport now, but at that time it was little tiny Yundum airport, which was literally like a little tiny building. And the landing strip was made of, this is their national airport, is made of leftover landing strip, metal landing strip pieces left over from World War II. Because World War II, in World War II, I think the British had a presence and they used The Gambia, I think, as like a launching pad for their North African campaigns. And so basically they're like these metal interlocking grids that would be pieced together and laid on, you know, on the ground. And that would form, that was their airport.

[Assistant] That was the landing strip.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're forgiven for not knowing, but it's Banjul.

[Assistant] Banjul.

[User]
And we, yeah, we flew in. You know, it was a very memorable, I still remember this very distinctly. You know, we flew, I think, through either LaGuardia or JFK via from Atlanta, I believe. And then, you know, it was an eight hour flight roughly. We first landed in Dakar. It was on September 1st, 1976. We landed. And as you come into Dakar and, you know, it's like an overnight flight, you come in and it's very dramatic because you come in and the sun is just rising, more or less, when the, just barely dawn. And what you first see actually is a lighthouse, which is on the very westernmost tip of Africa, flashing, and you're looking out the window and you look down. And it's just very dramatic, like Africa, you know, like we made it. We're going to make it.

And we, you know, we transferred to the Dakar airport and ended up sleepy eyed and groggy in what was then the earlier version of the what is now an international airport. But at that time, it's called Yundum International Airport now, but at that time it was little tiny Yundum airport, which was literally like a little tiny building. And the landing strip was made of, this is their national airport, is made of leftover landing strip, metal landing strip pieces left over from World War II. Because World War II, in World War II, I think the British had a presence and they used The Gambia, I think, as like a launching pad for their North African campaigns. And so basically they're like these metal interlocking grids that would be pieced together and laid on, you know, on the ground. And that would form, that was their airport.

[Assistant] That was the landing strip.

[User] That was the landing strip.

[Assistant] And this was Dakar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the landing strip.

[Assistant] And this was Dakar?

[User] And by the time. No, no, this is Banjul.

[Assistant] Oh, Banjul.

[User] Dakar was more developed. But Banjul is, at that time The Gambia only had 100,000 people, the whole country. And I guess I was told recently that now it's like over a million. I haven't checked but, you know, it's. And I actually I'm concerned.

[Assistant] Is it just birth rate or is this immigration as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And by the time. No, no, this is Banjul.

[Assistant] Oh, Banjul.

[User] Dakar was more developed. But Banjul is, at that time The Gambia only had 100,000 people, the whole country. And I guess I was told recently that now it's like over a million. I haven't checked but, you know, it's. And I actually I'm concerned.

[Assistant] Is it just birth rate or is this immigration as well?

[User] I think it's probably birth rate. I think they have a lot of emigration from the country, you know, like many African countries. But even then with that, you know, and whether there are any refugees from nearby countries, you know, that could be part of it. I'm not sure.

[Assistant] So you flew to Dakar, you then went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dakar was more developed. But Banjul is, at that time The Gambia only had 100,000 people, the whole country. And I guess I was told recently that now it's like over a million. I haven't checked but, you know, it's. And I actually I'm concerned.

[Assistant] Is it just birth rate or is this immigration as well?

[User] I think it's probably birth rate. I think they have a lot of emigration from the country, you know, like many African countries. But even then with that, you know, and whether there are any refugees from nearby countries, you know, that could be part of it. I'm not sure.

[Assistant] So you flew to Dakar, you then went?

[User] Transferred.

[Assistant] Transferred and you flew to Banjul?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's probably birth rate. I think they have a lot of emigration from the country, you know, like many African countries. But even then with that, you know, and whether there are any refugees from nearby countries, you know, that could be part of it. I'm not sure.

[Assistant] So you flew to Dakar, you then went?

[User] Transferred.

[Assistant] Transferred and you flew to Banjul?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To this tiny little airport.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Transferred.

[Assistant] Transferred and you flew to Banjul?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To this tiny little airport.

[User] Yeah, it was very cool. You know, it's like, you know, this is a guy from the United States, you know, I had never been in a place like this. And the same with all my mates, you know? So basically we were picked up by the staff, the Gambian staff, and put in a bus and driven through the, it was in September, so it would have been the middle of the rainy season. That is, you are kind of driven through the, down the roads with this tall elephant grass because it was a rainy season, you know, the grass grows like crazy and it's like six feet tall or whatever it seems like. So there's a lush green savannah kind of environment. And then we were taken to initially a couple of days in the capital city in a hotel.

[Assistant] How big was Banjul at that point, how many people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's mostly language and culture.

[Assistant] What language did you learn?

[User] We all learned Mandinka. There's roughly at that time five languages spoken in The Gambia. Mandinka was the largest. And because most of us would be working, we were going to all be assigned to Mandinka areas, you know, speaking areas. And that was fine. And, you know, the training was pretty good. I mean, if I in retrospect, I became, you know, at least minimally fluent in Mandinka. I mean, I stayed for a third year, and I was never highly, perfectly fluent. There were a few in our group that were much better than me and.

[Assistant] But you were able to communicate?

[User] Yeah. And I had a great time. And there is, and also the nature of my work, which I'll describe, basically allowed me and it almost required me to use English because I was doing a lot of work with English speaking officials and teachers, etc. So, you know.

[Assistant] Just to end on the training, what was the cultural training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Christianity and Judaism and every other religion says, you know, and so I got it. You know, and I had a, you know, Catholic upbringing. I mean, it all was consistent with what I was taught and not just in my religious education, but in my family. You know, it was just consistent with my, you know, I've subsequently done research about my extended family and its history and how they stuck together through the Depression. And they were all immigrants, all that stuff, you know. And like, it all made sense to me.

[Assistant] So you were in training, I guess, for three months or something like that?

[User] It wasn't that long. I think it was only six weeks.

[Assistant] Oh. So short term training. And then where were you assigned?

[User] Yeah, I was assigned. I and a couple of other volunteers were assigned to a village that was just close, just down the road from a kind of regional government headquarters called Mansa Konko, which means the king's hill in Mandinka. And we were in the next village over called Pakalinding, and that became my home. Well, for much of the subsequent three years, although I ended up dividing a lot of my time between Pakalinding and then the capital city, which I'll describe why that happened. But the first year in particular, the three, there were, it was me and the two other volunteers, one of which is this guy Mike, who is a hydrologist, water resources guy, and then a young woman named Chris who herself went on and I think she got a PhD in anthropology and worked at the Smithsonian. And my friend Mike got a PhD at MIT in hydrology and I got a doctorate in education.

[Assistant] So something was right in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And of course, the immediate reaction of the local guys was to grab a shovel and kill the snake, you know? But I thought, oh, what a welcoming. Welcome to your new home. And of course, there's no electricity, no running water. And that's how we lived. And subsequently. So that was part of the adventure. You know, some of us would have, might have said, oh, in fact, you know, more recently I'd gone back to Peace Corps staff, which I can tell about later. But you know, what we did, as in my recent Peace Corps experience, was we were required to have all these houses all up to date, da da da, safety, da da da, you know? None.

[Assistant] None of that.

[User] None of that, you know, and I mean, I've subsequently heard there are many volunteers historically that lived in even much cruder, rougher conditions, you know, like up in the boondocks, 50 miles from the latest, the nearest telephone, etc. Ours wasn't that, so much that.

[Assistant] You had a door, right?

[User] We had a door.

[Assistant] You had a bed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None of that, you know, and I mean, I've subsequently heard there are many volunteers historically that lived in even much cruder, rougher conditions, you know, like up in the boondocks, 50 miles from the latest, the nearest telephone, etc. Ours wasn't that, so much that.

[Assistant] You had a door, right?

[User] We had a door.

[Assistant] You had a bed?

[User] No. Well, we did because we'd bought it and brought it. So anyway, basically, my friend Mike and I, um, the other guy that was in the house, and Chris to some degree, but mostly Mike and me. Because he was an Eagle Scout and I was a Boy Scout and we were all, you know, he was an engineer, you know, a civil engineer. I mean, so we had it in our, and I had done some, you know, I'd grown up doing, you know, maintenance of houses that my mom owned, etc. I mean, so I, you know, I knew how to pound a nail, I'll put it that way. Maybe not always straight, but I knew how to pound a nail. And so we took the, we probably spent three or four, if not six months, finishing off that house and, you know, putting, building screens, going down to the market, buying scrap lumber. You know, finding screening material, getting nails, you know, making stuff, using very crude tools. Building like a wash area where you could take showers, you know, building a shed, you know.

[Assistant] Did Chris benefit from this, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a door.

[Assistant] You had a bed?

[User] No. Well, we did because we'd bought it and brought it. So anyway, basically, my friend Mike and I, um, the other guy that was in the house, and Chris to some degree, but mostly Mike and me. Because he was an Eagle Scout and I was a Boy Scout and we were all, you know, he was an engineer, you know, a civil engineer. I mean, so we had it in our, and I had done some, you know, I'd grown up doing, you know, maintenance of houses that my mom owned, etc. I mean, so I, you know, I knew how to pound a nail, I'll put it that way. Maybe not always straight, but I knew how to pound a nail. And so we took the, we probably spent three or four, if not six months, finishing off that house and, you know, putting, building screens, going down to the market, buying scrap lumber. You know, finding screening material, getting nails, you know, making stuff, using very crude tools. Building like a wash area where you could take showers, you know, building a shed, you know.

[Assistant] Did Chris benefit from this, too?

[User] She benefited, yes.

[Assistant] OK. I'm looking out for the woman. Did she share the house with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, we did because we'd bought it and brought it. So anyway, basically, my friend Mike and I, um, the other guy that was in the house, and Chris to some degree, but mostly Mike and me. Because he was an Eagle Scout and I was a Boy Scout and we were all, you know, he was an engineer, you know, a civil engineer. I mean, so we had it in our, and I had done some, you know, I'd grown up doing, you know, maintenance of houses that my mom owned, etc. I mean, so I, you know, I knew how to pound a nail, I'll put it that way. Maybe not always straight, but I knew how to pound a nail. And so we took the, we probably spent three or four, if not six months, finishing off that house and, you know, putting, building screens, going down to the market, buying scrap lumber. You know, finding screening material, getting nails, you know, making stuff, using very crude tools. Building like a wash area where you could take showers, you know, building a shed, you know.

[Assistant] Did Chris benefit from this, too?

[User] She benefited, yes.

[Assistant] OK. I'm looking out for the woman. Did she share the house with you?

[User] She did. But it was, it was kind of divided up into four two- room units that were, you know.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She benefited, yes.

[Assistant] OK. I'm looking out for the woman. Did she share the house with you?

[User] She did. But it was, it was kind of divided up into four two- room units that were, you know.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] Spread along a long building. And what we did is we knocked, we cut holes like doorways between these units, which originally would have been private, you know, two-room apartments, so to speak.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Spread along a long building. And what we did is we knocked, we cut holes like doorways between these units, which originally would have been private, you know, two-room apartments, so to speak.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] But we kind of link them by digging, you know, putting doorways between them and, you know, there's privacy, etc. But then they had one common, one of those units was like a common area. And anyway, yeah, so we did all that. And the thing is, you know, it gave us something to do and it had the benefit that every small, you know, you've got a group of small boys, as the phrase goes there, like boys that were probably between five and eight or nine years old that came over to our house almost every day.

[Assistant] To help?

[User] Yeah. Quote, to help, or at least to observe and to laugh and teach us Mandinka. And it was funny because many of our volunteers, and one of our fellow volunteers made the point that about language learning. He said, yeah, within the first year I was able to speak Mandinka like a five year old boy, you know? And it's like a joke, but it's not far-fetched because they were, they had infinite patience just to sit there. And if we said, well, what's that? How do you say that? You know, what's that? A lizard. But how do you say tree? How do you, you know, and how do I?

[Assistant] They would tell you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little bit, very marginally. I mean, we had very little involvement of our central office staff. And in the time I was there in three years, I think there were four different directors, country directors. And, you know, it was just, uh, nothing terrible happened. But, you know, for various reasons, people were. You know, I worked with about four different directors. And so by the time, you know, anyway, there wasn't a lot of support from the office. And in some ways I wanted more support. And in some ways I quickly I think I gradually liked it or not. I figured I'm out here, I've got to figure it out now. And so.

[Assistant] Well, before we move on to that, is there anything you want to say about the home stay when you first got there?

[User] Yeah. I mean, there were a couple of my, these other two volunteers. I think all three of us went in the same home stay I think. I know Chris, the woman, Christine, she and I were in that village for the home stay and maybe Mike, I don't remember for sure. But yeah, I mean for me personally. Poor Chris. She came down with malaria. I mean, she didn't know what it was, but they subsequently figured out she had malaria.

[Assistant] Did the family help you when you then came back to town?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You knew them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, there were a couple of my, these other two volunteers. I think all three of us went in the same home stay I think. I know Chris, the woman, Christine, she and I were in that village for the home stay and maybe Mike, I don't remember for sure. But yeah, I mean for me personally. Poor Chris. She came down with malaria. I mean, she didn't know what it was, but they subsequently figured out she had malaria.

[Assistant] Did the family help you when you then came back to town?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You knew them?

[User] Oh, yeah. And I'll tell you about them. And that's one of the greatest things I've ever had in my life. One of the greatest experience, sets of experiences with that family. But yeah, I was, I spent the first, you know, I did my home stay, which is only like a couple of days.

[Assistant] Oh, only? Some places it's much longer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think it was only like two or three days.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And you know, I, unfortunately, I think I probably had dysentery then, so I was, I just generally, I was pretty tired and didn't feel well most of the time. So I think a lot of my experience in that period was just through that gauze of just being sick. But, you know, it was a very intense exposure to all sorts of things, like living surrounded by a bunch of curious kids and people, and they're all like staring at me and nobody was ever hostile or anything. But it was, you know, very little privacy, having to eat food, which I didn't honestly initially I didn't like Gambian food. It took me about a year before I started to liking it. And even then there were some things I never really liked. And being hot and mosquitoes and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, it's just, and no privacy and not knowing it, you know, it's not easy. It's these things are like really rough and you've got to really be kind of tough and strong and, you know, I don't claim that I was like Superman. You know, I was a human being, you know, a young 24, 25 year old guy. So anyway, plus being sick so. And poor Chris got, she had malaria and so she was miserable. I mean, she was, I think, whatever, you know.

[Assistant] Had a fever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's just, and no privacy and not knowing it, you know, it's not easy. It's these things are like really rough and you've got to really be kind of tough and strong and, you know, I don't claim that I was like Superman. You know, I was a human being, you know, a young 24, 25 year old guy. So anyway, plus being sick so. And poor Chris got, she had malaria and so she was miserable. I mean, she was, I think, whatever, you know.

[Assistant] Had a fever.

[User] Whatever. I mean, multiple symptoms, I'll put it that way. So it was not the most pleasant home stay.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And but and, you know, I don't think, you know, Peace Corps staff did much to prepare the host families. But, you know, like, of course, they were, my family that I ended up developing a strong relationship with for not just my three years as a PCV, but I subsequently went back to The Gambia a couple of years later for another two years under an AID project, USAID, and all those five years was very tight with that family, which I could tell you more about. But anyway, that was my home stay type of experience.

[Assistant] Yeah. So why don't you take time out and talk about this family before we get to figuring out what your job is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You then continued?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I mean by the time the end of my second year was coming I, by then everything was clicking, you know, like the project was rolling. I mean, I'd gotten beyond that first year of frustration and just started off.

[Assistant] Took almost a whole year?

[User] Oh yeah, it did. I mean, it took me six months before I even started doing any real work outside, you know, nailing, making things for my house, I mean. And, but I mean, the advantage of that initial six months also gave me time to get to know the community and learn Mandinka, etc., etc. But, you know, it wasn't like totally wasted time. But in any case, that was c'est la vie, that's the way it was and um.

[Assistant] That sounds great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. I mean by the time the end of my second year was coming I, by then everything was clicking, you know, like the project was rolling. I mean, I'd gotten beyond that first year of frustration and just started off.

[Assistant] Took almost a whole year?

[User] Oh yeah, it did. I mean, it took me six months before I even started doing any real work outside, you know, nailing, making things for my house, I mean. And, but I mean, the advantage of that initial six months also gave me time to get to know the community and learn Mandinka, etc., etc. But, you know, it wasn't like totally wasted time. But in any case, that was c'est la vie, that's the way it was and um.

[Assistant] That sounds great.

[User] And we ended up and I was like the secretary of this literacy committee. I wrote all the minutes of the meetings and wrote reports, etc., and some of, many of which, all of which really, or a good bulk of which are in this collection I'm giving to American University. I'm. I was very meticulous. I have all these notebooks from all these meetings and things I went to and I've been thumbing through a few of them just this past week or so. And I think, man, that was a lot of.

[Assistant] It was a lot of work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, it did. I mean, it took me six months before I even started doing any real work outside, you know, nailing, making things for my house, I mean. And, but I mean, the advantage of that initial six months also gave me time to get to know the community and learn Mandinka, etc., etc. But, you know, it wasn't like totally wasted time. But in any case, that was c'est la vie, that's the way it was and um.

[Assistant] That sounds great.

[User] And we ended up and I was like the secretary of this literacy committee. I wrote all the minutes of the meetings and wrote reports, etc., and some of, many of which, all of which really, or a good bulk of which are in this collection I'm giving to American University. I'm. I was very meticulous. I have all these notebooks from all these meetings and things I went to and I've been thumbing through a few of them just this past week or so. And I think, man, that was a lot of.

[Assistant] It was a lot of work.

[User] A lot of work and this gets to some of the impacts of the work on me professionally. But so that's what we did. And so after and by the end of the second year, I said, man, I don't want to give it up now. It's just getting going. This is getting to be fun, you know, and a great adventure. And I felt so much achievement and I felt like if I left, the thing would kind of fall apart because I, unfortunately, which too often happens in Peace Corps and in international development type of things, too much was dependent on people like me.

[Assistant] Yeah. So did it continue after the third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] I think you've covered all of the bases.

[User] Yeah, I've probably gone, I've probably gone longer than your thing but.

[Assistant] That's fine.

[User] Your time thing. You know, I think, um, I'm just grateful. You know, I'm grateful for the people who put that Peace Corps together, for all the great support I got from the many people I worked with. My fellow volunteers, my host family, the coworkers I had, the villagers in the, you know, in The Gambia, the staff, the Peace Corps staff, the medical officer there who took care of me, you know, in my sick times, and the support I got from my family at home, you know, long distance. And I'm proud of, you know, I think I was a great success. I think I had a great success.

[Assistant] It sounds like it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I've probably gone, I've probably gone longer than your thing but.

[Assistant] That's fine.

[User] Your time thing. You know, I think, um, I'm just grateful. You know, I'm grateful for the people who put that Peace Corps together, for all the great support I got from the many people I worked with. My fellow volunteers, my host family, the coworkers I had, the villagers in the, you know, in The Gambia, the staff, the Peace Corps staff, the medical officer there who took care of me, you know, in my sick times, and the support I got from my family at home, you know, long distance. And I'm proud of, you know, I think I was a great success. I think I had a great success.

[Assistant] It sounds like it.

[User] And I'm, you know, I maintain an interest in Peace Corps. And I went back and spent another five years at Peace Corps Tonga more recently, which was also fantastic. I could talk another couple of hours about that, but I won't. But that, you know, I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't had such a great experience. And so I'm grateful for that. And I think it's, you know, there's always things that could be improved in any agency. But on balance, my three cheers to Peace Corps and my really heartfelt thanks and appreciation for doing what it does. And it's a great, it's a great use of taxpayers’ money, I'll put it that way.

[Assistant] That's a good way to end the interview. Thank you, Paul.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And was still going on at that point. So when I got there,

[Assistant] When you got to Afghanistan.

[User]
Yeah, I immediately learned of a strong cultural difference. When I went up to buy some oranges and decided to try out my Dari, was called Farsi then, a variation of Iranian Persian. And so I went up and I, I knew that you negotiated. And so I started to negotiate and I said, how much is this orange? And he said, It's one Afghani. And I said, well, If I buy two, how much will it be to Afghani? And I said, well, I think I'll take all 10. And he said, I'm not selling any to you. And the reason was because he was horrified. He was even though he was only a street seller of fruit, he was an older man with great dignity. And I had insulted him by over negotiating the. So I learned very early on about that cultural differences were more subtle than I had learned.

Speaking of the training, learning about Afghanistan, there were two important things that that were an upshot of their training. One was that I met a lifelong friend first there, one of the language teachers who became Dr Isohn Intisar, and whose funeral I went to two months ago in Lodi, California. So we know knew each other. Much of our lives and had great affinity and friendship and affection for each other. The other was a Kennedy was assassinated during that time. And so it was it was really quite in a way, a difficult period. So I found myself in Afghanistan after the training and began my work as an English teacher.

[Assistant] Ok, we're going to back up a little bit. But I also want to go back and just talk about the experience of being in Afghanistan when the president was killed. So you applied. Where did you grow up?

[User] All over the country, the eastern part of the country, New York City, Connecticut, Alabama, Missouri, Michigan.

[Assistant] And you got your master's degree when you applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All over the country, the eastern part of the country, New York City, Connecticut, Alabama, Missouri, Michigan.

[Assistant] And you got your master's degree when you applied?

[User] When I applied, I applied from graduate school, which I actually left without completing it. Later when I returned, I got my doctorate from the University of Massachusetts in international education.

[Assistant] What had you been studying before?

[User] I was thinking about going into journalism, and it just it just I just didn't know what I want to do. So I decided to give myself a couple of years and, you know, see what I was like two and three years from now.

[Assistant] And where were you in school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I applied, I applied from graduate school, which I actually left without completing it. Later when I returned, I got my doctorate from the University of Massachusetts in international education.

[Assistant] What had you been studying before?

[User] I was thinking about going into journalism, and it just it just I just didn't know what I want to do. So I decided to give myself a couple of years and, you know, see what I was like two and three years from now.

[Assistant] And where were you in school?

[User] Well, I went to did my undergraduate work at Harvard in English Lit and then went to the University of Michigan.

[Assistant] The home of Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was thinking about going into journalism, and it just it just I just didn't know what I want to do. So I decided to give myself a couple of years and, you know, see what I was like two and three years from now.

[Assistant] And where were you in school?

[User] Well, I went to did my undergraduate work at Harvard in English Lit and then went to the University of Michigan.

[Assistant] The home of Peace Corps.

[User] And that's right. At least that's where the idea was brooded about,

[Assistant] Where it was discussed at first. So how did you know about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went to did my undergraduate work at Harvard in English Lit and then went to the University of Michigan.

[Assistant] The home of Peace Corps.

[User] And that's right. At least that's where the idea was brooded about,

[Assistant] Where it was discussed at first. So how did you know about Peace Corps?

[User] I was very much devoted follower of of Kennedy And one and I knew of the fact that he'd taken up the Peace Corps as one of his signature signature approaches to foreign international work.

[Assistant] Ok, so you applied and you were clearly accepted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's right. At least that's where the idea was brooded about,

[Assistant] Where it was discussed at first. So how did you know about Peace Corps?

[User] I was very much devoted follower of of Kennedy And one and I knew of the fact that he'd taken up the Peace Corps as one of his signature signature approaches to foreign international work.

[Assistant] Ok, so you applied and you were clearly accepted.

[User] Yes. And different part of the world.

[Assistant] Different part of the world. Were you happy about being accepted to Afghanistan or did you look back and complain about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very much devoted follower of of Kennedy And one and I knew of the fact that he'd taken up the Peace Corps as one of his signature signature approaches to foreign international work.

[Assistant] Ok, so you applied and you were clearly accepted.

[User] Yes. And different part of the world.

[Assistant] Different part of the world. Were you happy about being accepted to Afghanistan or did you look back and complain about that?

[User] No, no, I, I think I knew enough about the federal government to know that complaining wouldn't get you very far.

[Assistant] So some people complained and shifted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And different part of the world.

[Assistant] Different part of the world. Were you happy about being accepted to Afghanistan or did you look back and complain about that?

[User] No, no, I, I think I knew enough about the federal government to know that complaining wouldn't get you very far.

[Assistant] So some people complained and shifted.

[User] Well, really? And then I didn't know as much as I thought I did. In any event, I quickly I was quickly brought to a training program at the experiment in International Living in Brattleboro.

[Assistant] That's where the in country training was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Logic is different in different cultures.

[Assistant] I totally understand that. But I think that all. So you were trained in Brattleboro. How many people were in your your group?

[User] About 45.

[Assistant] And all in and in training and education, where they all

[User] No, all kinds of different fields. We had a beekeeper. I think we had a warehouse warehouse people who knew how to,

[Assistant] But all going to Afghanistan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About 45.

[Assistant] And all in and in training and education, where they all

[User] No, all kinds of different fields. We had a beekeeper. I think we had a warehouse warehouse people who knew how to,

[Assistant] But all going to Afghanistan?

[User] All going to Afghanistan, various forms of educators, probably the largest group was the English as a second language group. And that's what I was in.

[Assistant] So anything else you want to say about the training at the time and but family, the friendships you made. But do you think the training now that you've become a professional over all the years in this field, do you think the training adequately prepared you for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, all kinds of different fields. We had a beekeeper. I think we had a warehouse warehouse people who knew how to,

[Assistant] But all going to Afghanistan?

[User] All going to Afghanistan, various forms of educators, probably the largest group was the English as a second language group. And that's what I was in.

[Assistant] So anything else you want to say about the training at the time and but family, the friendships you made. But do you think the training now that you've become a professional over all the years in this field, do you think the training adequately prepared you for the Peace Corps?

[User] It did a fairly good job. I, I think I was fortunate to have very competent people running that program. And certainly the language training was excellent. The cross-cultural training was good. And then, you know, I picked up a lot of my own through my friendships with the Afghans as the chess game was an example of. So I think it you know, I had no complaints at any time about that program. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you then flew from somewhere from Boston or somewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All going to Afghanistan, various forms of educators, probably the largest group was the English as a second language group. And that's what I was in.

[Assistant] So anything else you want to say about the training at the time and but family, the friendships you made. But do you think the training now that you've become a professional over all the years in this field, do you think the training adequately prepared you for the Peace Corps?

[User] It did a fairly good job. I, I think I was fortunate to have very competent people running that program. And certainly the language training was excellent. The cross-cultural training was good. And then, you know, I picked up a lot of my own through my friendships with the Afghans as the chess game was an example of. So I think it you know, I had no complaints at any time about that program. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you then flew from somewhere from Boston or somewhere?

[User] I think it was JFK, but not sure.

[Assistant] OK, whatever. To where? To Kabul?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did a fairly good job. I, I think I was fortunate to have very competent people running that program. And certainly the language training was excellent. The cross-cultural training was good. And then, you know, I picked up a lot of my own through my friendships with the Afghans as the chess game was an example of. So I think it you know, I had no complaints at any time about that program. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So you then flew from somewhere from Boston or somewhere?

[User] I think it was JFK, but not sure.

[Assistant] OK, whatever. To where? To Kabul?

[User] Well we, we overnighted in Tehran and then took what later we called the, the Afghan airlines what we call the Insha'Allah Airlines.

[Assistant] Because there were numerous Insha’Allah airlines, you know, we had the same airline in Somalia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was JFK, but not sure.

[Assistant] OK, whatever. To where? To Kabul?

[User] Well we, we overnighted in Tehran and then took what later we called the, the Afghan airlines what we call the Insha'Allah Airlines.

[Assistant] Because there were numerous Insha’Allah airlines, you know, we had the same airline in Somalia.

[User] So Ariana was took us into into Kabul, where I first met Bob Snyder, who would later become my business partner. And Stiner was a legend among Peace Corps directors because he had grown up in Iran and spoke perfect Farsi and impress the Afghans. No end, because not only did he speak their language, but he spoke had better, quote unquote, better than they because it was more formal Irani.

[Assistant] Yeah, interesting. All right. So you got to Kabul and then immediately assigned to different places, or was there further training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well we, we overnighted in Tehran and then took what later we called the, the Afghan airlines what we call the Insha'Allah Airlines.

[Assistant] Because there were numerous Insha’Allah airlines, you know, we had the same airline in Somalia.

[User] So Ariana was took us into into Kabul, where I first met Bob Snyder, who would later become my business partner. And Stiner was a legend among Peace Corps directors because he had grown up in Iran and spoke perfect Farsi and impress the Afghans. No end, because not only did he speak their language, but he spoke had better, quote unquote, better than they because it was more formal Irani.

[Assistant] Yeah, interesting. All right. So you got to Kabul and then immediately assigned to different places, or was there further training?

[User] No, there was no further training, which brings up the whole matter of Peace Corps training. It started off all in the U.S. or I think Puerto Rico had a Peace Corps center, but basically it was in the U.S. And then by the time I got into providing Peace Corps training, we did it half and half, half in the U.S. And

[Assistant] Now it's totally overseas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Ariana was took us into into Kabul, where I first met Bob Snyder, who would later become my business partner. And Stiner was a legend among Peace Corps directors because he had grown up in Iran and spoke perfect Farsi and impress the Afghans. No end, because not only did he speak their language, but he spoke had better, quote unquote, better than they because it was more formal Irani.

[Assistant] Yeah, interesting. All right. So you got to Kabul and then immediately assigned to different places, or was there further training?

[User] No, there was no further training, which brings up the whole matter of Peace Corps training. It started off all in the U.S. or I think Puerto Rico had a Peace Corps center, but basically it was in the U.S. And then by the time I got into providing Peace Corps training, we did it half and half, half in the U.S. And

[Assistant] Now it's totally overseas.

[User] And now it's totally overseas, which I think I think the half and half model was the best preparation because you can do certain things from here that you can't do there and you can do a lot there. You can't do here. So in any event, yeah, that was.

[Assistant] All right. So where you got to Kabul, let me ask what happened when you got off the plane? Were you shocked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it wasn't a great invention. But we waited two or three months and finally the place opened and I taught there for a year.

[Assistant] Then it was at the college level?

[User] Yes, this was at the college level.

[Assistant] Men, women?

[User] There were a few women. And this was a very odd time in Afghanistan in terms of women's rights, because Zahir Shah, the king, had decided that they needed where the Shah there anymore. And you saw actually saw Afghan women in miniskirts. And during those times it was very strange interim time when women had more freedom, I think, than either before or since. And so they joined their fellow students in classes and so on. And this all fell apart when the Taliban came in.

[Assistant] So just going, so where did you live? Did you live at the university?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a few women. And this was a very odd time in Afghanistan in terms of women's rights, because Zahir Shah, the king, had decided that they needed where the Shah there anymore. And you saw actually saw Afghan women in miniskirts. And during those times it was very strange interim time when women had more freedom, I think, than either before or since. And so they joined their fellow students in classes and so on. And this all fell apart when the Taliban came in.

[Assistant] So just going, so where did you live? Did you live at the university?

[User] No, no. We had a Peace Corps rented houses for all the volunteers all over the city.

[Assistant] In Kabul?

[User] In Kabul.

[Assistant] So there were lots of volunteers in Kabul.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. We had a Peace Corps rented houses for all the volunteers all over the city.

[Assistant] In Kabul?

[User] In Kabul.

[Assistant] So there were lots of volunteers in Kabul.

[User] Lots of volunteers in Kabul. The Afghans.

[Assistant] And you shared a house with or an apartment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Kabul.

[Assistant] So there were lots of volunteers in Kabul.

[User] Lots of volunteers in Kabul. The Afghans.

[Assistant] And you shared a house with or an apartment?

[User] With two others. Yeah, and we got along sometimes well and sometimes not well. But I remembered that nobody changed. We got electricity occasionally and then the lights would come on. But when they blew out, nobody changed the light bulbs. But yeah, it was a waiting time. The second year I went to Baghlan in the north to teach at a middle school there. And that was a much lovelier experience.

[Assistant] Well, let me point to that. But so you taught English at the university level and they were were they starting students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lots of volunteers in Kabul. The Afghans.

[Assistant] And you shared a house with or an apartment?

[User] With two others. Yeah, and we got along sometimes well and sometimes not well. But I remembered that nobody changed. We got electricity occasionally and then the lights would come on. But when they blew out, nobody changed the light bulbs. But yeah, it was a waiting time. The second year I went to Baghlan in the north to teach at a middle school there. And that was a much lovelier experience.

[Assistant] Well, let me point to that. But so you taught English at the university level and they were were they starting students?

[User] So, yeah.

[Assistant] They know some English. What was they like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With two others. Yeah, and we got along sometimes well and sometimes not well. But I remembered that nobody changed. We got electricity occasionally and then the lights would come on. But when they blew out, nobody changed the light bulbs. But yeah, it was a waiting time. The second year I went to Baghlan in the north to teach at a middle school there. And that was a much lovelier experience.

[Assistant] Well, let me point to that. But so you taught English at the university level and they were were they starting students?

[User] So, yeah.

[Assistant] They know some English. What was they like?

[User] There were a variety of of abilities in the class. And I remember one tall Pashtun guy, the Pushtuns, that's basically came from the southern and western part of Afghanistan. And he was from Kandahar. And he I was sick one day and I was in bed and he came to visit me with a bunch of oranges. And he said to me, you know, I have to pass my exams because my family would be they spent all this money to send me to Kabul. And if I don't pass, they will have a sense of shame. And they are they do a lot of mischief. My family, they they they happen to take gold and drugs from one part of the border to the other. So anyway, I just hope you get well and I do well. So he left and I the the Afghan fellow who worked for me because I did the house cleaning and stuff, he he started to laugh and he said, you better watch out for that guy. He's one tough guy. And so that set up a kind of a conundrum for me, you know, whether I was going to follow the precepts of good teaching and and flunk the guy or.

[Assistant] It was that bad? He was not going to do well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah.

[Assistant] They know some English. What was they like?

[User] There were a variety of of abilities in the class. And I remember one tall Pashtun guy, the Pushtuns, that's basically came from the southern and western part of Afghanistan. And he was from Kandahar. And he I was sick one day and I was in bed and he came to visit me with a bunch of oranges. And he said to me, you know, I have to pass my exams because my family would be they spent all this money to send me to Kabul. And if I don't pass, they will have a sense of shame. And they are they do a lot of mischief. My family, they they they happen to take gold and drugs from one part of the border to the other. So anyway, I just hope you get well and I do well. So he left and I the the Afghan fellow who worked for me because I did the house cleaning and stuff, he he started to laugh and he said, you better watch out for that guy. He's one tough guy. And so that set up a kind of a conundrum for me, you know, whether I was going to follow the precepts of good teaching and and flunk the guy or.

[Assistant] It was that bad? He was not going to do well.

[User] And or whether I would pass him and and my life would be safe. So the passing grade at that time at the University of Kabul was 35 out of 100. The guy got 38 out of 100. I gave him this paper back and he said to me, my family will do anything for you. You will come. We will give you a feast in Kandahar. I said, you did it all by yourself. I did all. We understand all that.

[Assistant] Take credit, why not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And or whether I would pass him and and my life would be safe. So the passing grade at that time at the University of Kabul was 35 out of 100. The guy got 38 out of 100. I gave him this paper back and he said to me, my family will do anything for you. You will come. We will give you a feast in Kandahar. I said, you did it all by yourself. I did all. We understand all that.

[Assistant] Take credit, why not?

[User] Well, so, anyway, it was there was so much about Afghanistan then. That was 13th century. That was the way things had been done. And I remember speaking with the farmer in in Babylon and asking him how his crops were doing. And he said that we're doing very well for for some time. I said, what's the problem? And he said, well, Genghis Khan destroyed all our underground water supplies. And things have been tough ever since. So it was you know, the memories went back that far. And and it was it was very much a 13th century kingdom.

[Assistant] So in caste and class or in other ways as well?

[User] Well, my friend Dr. Intisar once broke them down, according to various broke down the social structure, according to various affinities which included gender, wealth or class religion, since there were two parts of Islamic, the Sunnis and the Shias and then the other subsections of the of the Sunnis and Shias, according to what you saw, how much land you own, whether you're a government official or not, and three or four other categories, all of which were affinities. And it all depended how much that affinity group could provide as to which one you decided to join.

[Assistant] And so you had choices.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, so, anyway, it was there was so much about Afghanistan then. That was 13th century. That was the way things had been done. And I remember speaking with the farmer in in Babylon and asking him how his crops were doing. And he said that we're doing very well for for some time. I said, what's the problem? And he said, well, Genghis Khan destroyed all our underground water supplies. And things have been tough ever since. So it was you know, the memories went back that far. And and it was it was very much a 13th century kingdom.

[Assistant] So in caste and class or in other ways as well?

[User] Well, my friend Dr. Intisar once broke them down, according to various broke down the social structure, according to various affinities which included gender, wealth or class religion, since there were two parts of Islamic, the Sunnis and the Shias and then the other subsections of the of the Sunnis and Shias, according to what you saw, how much land you own, whether you're a government official or not, and three or four other categories, all of which were affinities. And it all depended how much that affinity group could provide as to which one you decided to join.

[Assistant] And so you had choices.

[User] You within limits. There were choices. Yes, you could you could stick with the Shias if you were a Hazara, as they were called, and the Shias were in the central part of the country. And if they went outside that they were discriminated against. So you could just stay where you were instead of going out there, or you could join the government and, you know, become a government affinity group. There were all kinds of.

[Assistant] But there was a way was there a way of escaping the poor, or you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my friend Dr. Intisar once broke them down, according to various broke down the social structure, according to various affinities which included gender, wealth or class religion, since there were two parts of Islamic, the Sunnis and the Shias and then the other subsections of the of the Sunnis and Shias, according to what you saw, how much land you own, whether you're a government official or not, and three or four other categories, all of which were affinities. And it all depended how much that affinity group could provide as to which one you decided to join.

[Assistant] And so you had choices.

[User] You within limits. There were choices. Yes, you could you could stick with the Shias if you were a Hazara, as they were called, and the Shias were in the central part of the country. And if they went outside that they were discriminated against. So you could just stay where you were instead of going out there, or you could join the government and, you know, become a government affinity group. There were all kinds of.

[Assistant] But there was a way was there a way of escaping the poor, or you know.

[User] Limited. Now, once again, my friend, Dr. Intisar was born a poor child in a village in the central south part of Afghanistan, and he managed to do that. But through dint of extraordinary hard work.

[Assistant] And usually you're stuck.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You within limits. There were choices. Yes, you could you could stick with the Shias if you were a Hazara, as they were called, and the Shias were in the central part of the country. And if they went outside that they were discriminated against. So you could just stay where you were instead of going out there, or you could join the government and, you know, become a government affinity group. There were all kinds of.

[Assistant] But there was a way was there a way of escaping the poor, or you know.

[User] Limited. Now, once again, my friend, Dr. Intisar was born a poor child in a village in the central south part of Afghanistan, and he managed to do that. But through dint of extraordinary hard work.

[Assistant] And usually you're stuck.

[User] Well, there was a lot of stratification. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So why did you decide to leave? Did you decide you wanted to leave Kabul or was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Limited. Now, once again, my friend, Dr. Intisar was born a poor child in a village in the central south part of Afghanistan, and he managed to do that. But through dint of extraordinary hard work.

[Assistant] And usually you're stuck.

[User] Well, there was a lot of stratification. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So why did you decide to leave? Did you decide you wanted to leave Kabul or was it?

[User] I think it was a joint decision with the with with Bob Steinar.

[Assistant] Then why did you do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was a lot of stratification. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So why did you decide to leave? Did you decide you wanted to leave Kabul or was it?

[User] I think it was a joint decision with the with with Bob Steinar.

[Assistant] Then why did you do it?

[User] Well, we were stuck in this university that opened three months late and was not really organized well at all. And I was interested in going to the provinces and seeing what it was like outside Kabul. And he said, go for it.

[Assistant] So just before we leave Kabul, who did you interact with? Did you interact with your teachers, with your fellow teachers, with students, with neighbors, the volunteers, all of the above?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was a joint decision with the with with Bob Steinar.

[Assistant] Then why did you do it?

[User] Well, we were stuck in this university that opened three months late and was not really organized well at all. And I was interested in going to the provinces and seeing what it was like outside Kabul. And he said, go for it.

[Assistant] So just before we leave Kabul, who did you interact with? Did you interact with your teachers, with your fellow teachers, with students, with neighbors, the volunteers, all of the above?

[User] All, pretty much all of the above. By the time I had been there for a year, I was speaking fairly good Farsi so I could get around quite a bit. And so I met with fellow teachers. We would go off, we'd have parties with them. There were Peace Corps parties. So there was there was a social life. There was also a bit of the how to put it. Afghanistan has always been the crossroads of many civilizations, cultures. And also of adversaries and the Russians and the Americans at that time were vying for influence, and so occasionally we'd go to volunteers to go to parties where there were clearly Afghans from the government who are asking interesting questions about why the American government was supporting certain person and the government. And do you support him or you know, so it was fairly clear that this was kind of a job that we were being watched closely. And that added a little a little taste of

[Assistant] Did you meet any Russian American spies while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All, pretty much all of the above. By the time I had been there for a year, I was speaking fairly good Farsi so I could get around quite a bit. And so I met with fellow teachers. We would go off, we'd have parties with them. There were Peace Corps parties. So there was there was a social life. There was also a bit of the how to put it. Afghanistan has always been the crossroads of many civilizations, cultures. And also of adversaries and the Russians and the Americans at that time were vying for influence, and so occasionally we'd go to volunteers to go to parties where there were clearly Afghans from the government who are asking interesting questions about why the American government was supporting certain person and the government. And do you support him or you know, so it was fairly clear that this was kind of a job that we were being watched closely. And that added a little a little taste of

[Assistant] Did you meet any Russian American spies while you were there?

[User] I'm sure I did. And I'm glad the Russians were a little bit they hadn't come in and in great numbers. The Americans had built the university. They had built roads over the country. The Russians built the road north, which went to the highest tunnel, this low lying pass in the world, I think at the time that it was built and which they later used to invade the country. And the Americans built an airport in Kandahar on the supposition that this is USAID and the supposition that planes would have to stop there to refuel on the way to India, which was entirely false, that they had could carry enough fuel that need to stop there. And even if they had, they wouldn't have been any fuel because there was no fuel in the country anyway. This perfect airport, millions and millions and millions of dollars just sat there. Pretty much unused plane is full later. Yes. To the Russian pilots. We're bombing Afghanistan. Yeah, well, OK.

[Assistant] So you left Kabul and you moved to the north.

[User] To the north.

[Assistant] To a middle school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure I did. And I'm glad the Russians were a little bit they hadn't come in and in great numbers. The Americans had built the university. They had built roads over the country. The Russians built the road north, which went to the highest tunnel, this low lying pass in the world, I think at the time that it was built and which they later used to invade the country. And the Americans built an airport in Kandahar on the supposition that this is USAID and the supposition that planes would have to stop there to refuel on the way to India, which was entirely false, that they had could carry enough fuel that need to stop there. And even if they had, they wouldn't have been any fuel because there was no fuel in the country anyway. This perfect airport, millions and millions and millions of dollars just sat there. Pretty much unused plane is full later. Yes. To the Russian pilots. We're bombing Afghanistan. Yeah, well, OK.

[Assistant] So you left Kabul and you moved to the north.

[User] To the north.

[Assistant] To a middle school.

[User] To Baghlan. B-A-G-H-L-A-N. And by that time I had married and so my wife and I, who was another, she was a Peace Corps volunteer in group one. Oh, we were there and she.

[Assistant] You missed a whole moment. I mean, you just kind of jumped over all that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To the north.

[Assistant] To a middle school.

[User] To Baghlan. B-A-G-H-L-A-N. And by that time I had married and so my wife and I, who was another, she was a Peace Corps volunteer in group one. Oh, we were there and she.

[Assistant] You missed a whole moment. I mean, you just kind of jumped over all that.

[User] Well, just.

[Assistant] Spend two minutes on meeting your future wife.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Baghlan. B-A-G-H-L-A-N. And by that time I had married and so my wife and I, who was another, she was a Peace Corps volunteer in group one. Oh, we were there and she.

[Assistant] You missed a whole moment. I mean, you just kind of jumped over all that.

[User] Well, just.

[Assistant] Spend two minutes on meeting your future wife.

[User] Suffice it to say that we had our wedding party at the ambassador's house because he had fallen for her because she had been an actress in Oklahoma, Laurie, and she'd overcome the ambassador. So he gave us to the party at the ambassador. It also happened that we, in fact, weren't married because the American chargé at the time didn't know U.S. law. U.S. law states you have to be married by a country official, a country in which you reside. He didn't know that. So there were about twenty couples married at that time who turned out not to married.

[Assistant] But the embassy is an American, embassies are always considered the property of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just.

[Assistant] Spend two minutes on meeting your future wife.

[User] Suffice it to say that we had our wedding party at the ambassador's house because he had fallen for her because she had been an actress in Oklahoma, Laurie, and she'd overcome the ambassador. So he gave us to the party at the ambassador. It also happened that we, in fact, weren't married because the American chargé at the time didn't know U.S. law. U.S. law states you have to be married by a country official, a country in which you reside. He didn't know that. So there were about twenty couples married at that time who turned out not to married.

[Assistant] But the embassy is an American, embassies are always considered the property of.

[User] We weren’t married at the embassy. We just had the party there. OK, so so it turned out that when we were back to train volunteers later on, we found out we weren't married at that time. My my living lady friend kept saying, what are we going to get married? So we're pretty busy now let's wait until we finally went to a police station and with my friend Dr. Intisar’s help, who was translator, we got married by the police department and of course I had to give a bride price. And so I offered twenty dollars.

[Assistant] She still married you for that little money?