[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know what we did. I can’t remember if Jennifer was old enough to leave with the rest of the kids. I think if we were going someplace in El Lago we had her be the mom, and she’s still being the mom. I overdid it.

[Assistant] Did the wives ever babysit for each other? Was that something you would ever do?

[User] No, nobody ever wanted to trade with me.

[Assistant] Too many kids, huh?

[User] Too many kids. Joan Roosa was the only place I could go. She was remarkable because you could go in her house. I don’t know if you do this or have ever done this, but you start picking things up when someone comes to visit you. You straighten the magazines, or you pick up the newspaper. You do something. She did nothing. She just went and got you a daiquiri, and that was it. You felt welcome there anytime.

[Assistant] That’s funny. I guess she felt like that daiquiri would loosen you up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, nobody ever wanted to trade with me.

[Assistant] Too many kids, huh?

[User] Too many kids. Joan Roosa was the only place I could go. She was remarkable because you could go in her house. I don’t know if you do this or have ever done this, but you start picking things up when someone comes to visit you. You straighten the magazines, or you pick up the newspaper. You do something. She did nothing. She just went and got you a daiquiri, and that was it. You felt welcome there anytime.

[Assistant] That’s funny. I guess she felt like that daiquiri would loosen you up.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some of the folks I talked to talked about how Clear Lake was such a rural community in the ’60s and how they remember wild animals running around the area. Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Too many kids. Joan Roosa was the only place I could go. She was remarkable because you could go in her house. I don’t know if you do this or have ever done this, but you start picking things up when someone comes to visit you. You straighten the magazines, or you pick up the newspaper. You do something. She did nothing. She just went and got you a daiquiri, and that was it. You felt welcome there anytime.

[Assistant] That’s funny. I guess she felt like that daiquiri would loosen you up.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some of the folks I talked to talked about how Clear Lake was such a rural community in the ’60s and how they remember wild animals running around the area. Do you remember that?

[User] We saw deer, and we saw lots of possums and raccoons and little wildlife like that. But I wasn’t aware of any other. We lived close to the woods, so we got a lot of possums and raccoons.

[Assistant] Were insects a big deal, moving from California to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some of the folks I talked to talked about how Clear Lake was such a rural community in the ’60s and how they remember wild animals running around the area. Do you remember that?

[User] We saw deer, and we saw lots of possums and raccoons and little wildlife like that. But I wasn’t aware of any other. We lived close to the woods, so we got a lot of possums and raccoons.

[Assistant] Were insects a big deal, moving from California to Houston?

[User] The roaches were a big surprise. We don’t have those in California. We have silverfish, which are little bitty things. Yes. The roaches were an unwelcome guest in the house. The bugs, I don’t know, it just went with the territory I guess.

[Assistant] Yes, living in a Southern climate. I wanted to ask you about the schools. Your kids had started going to school in California, and you moved out here. Would you talk about the schools out here? What were they like? Maybe the student body?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We saw deer, and we saw lots of possums and raccoons and little wildlife like that. But I wasn’t aware of any other. We lived close to the woods, so we got a lot of possums and raccoons.

[Assistant] Were insects a big deal, moving from California to Houston?

[User] The roaches were a big surprise. We don’t have those in California. We have silverfish, which are little bitty things. Yes. The roaches were an unwelcome guest in the house. The bugs, I don’t know, it just went with the territory I guess.

[Assistant] Yes, living in a Southern climate. I wanted to ask you about the schools. Your kids had started going to school in California, and you moved out here. Would you talk about the schools out here? What were they like? Maybe the student body?

[User] They were okay. They weren’t any different, I didn’t think, than the ones in California. Of course the ones in California we only had two kids that were going to kindergarten and Jennifer, who was in the third grade. We didn’t have a lot of school experience from California. We lived just a few blocks from Ed White School, so they rode their bikes or walked. It was nice that we lived so close to the school, because a lot of people had to bus.

[Assistant] Did you volunteer at the school, or were you again so busy with the kids that you didn’t?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The roaches were a big surprise. We don’t have those in California. We have silverfish, which are little bitty things. Yes. The roaches were an unwelcome guest in the house. The bugs, I don’t know, it just went with the territory I guess.

[Assistant] Yes, living in a Southern climate. I wanted to ask you about the schools. Your kids had started going to school in California, and you moved out here. Would you talk about the schools out here? What were they like? Maybe the student body?

[User] They were okay. They weren’t any different, I didn’t think, than the ones in California. Of course the ones in California we only had two kids that were going to kindergarten and Jennifer, who was in the third grade. We didn’t have a lot of school experience from California. We lived just a few blocks from Ed White School, so they rode their bikes or walked. It was nice that we lived so close to the school, because a lot of people had to bus.

[Assistant] Did you volunteer at the school, or were you again so busy with the kids that you didn’t?

[User] No, I did stuff at the church. I helped teach Sunday school. Later on when the kids were older I ran the senior high fellowship group and Jerry helped me. That was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun with those high school kids.

[Assistant] Were there other things you did, like maybe coaching or Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, things like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I did stuff at the church. I helped teach Sunday school. Later on when the kids were older I ran the senior high fellowship group and Jerry helped me. That was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun with those high school kids.

[Assistant] Were there other things you did, like maybe coaching or Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, things like that?

[User] I did, not the Girl Scouts.

[Assistant] Camp Fire?

[User] Camp Fire Girls. Yes. I did that. Jamee’s group, I ran that for a while. I was busy. That’s for sure. I try to think back about what I was doing, and I can’t remember.

[Assistant] I imagine some of it is kind of mundane, probably cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, not the Girl Scouts.

[Assistant] Camp Fire?

[User] Camp Fire Girls. Yes. I did that. Jamee’s group, I ran that for a while. I was busy. That’s for sure. I try to think back about what I was doing, and I can’t remember.

[Assistant] I imagine some of it is kind of mundane, probably cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids.

[User] Yes. We had chores that had to be assigned to people. I had a chart on the back porch that had the names and the jobs for that week. They had to be responsible. At some point, I don’t remember how old they were, but I know that when I started law school after Jerry flew, they all had to cook dinner one night a week, because I didn’t get home till six o’clock every night. They did their own laundry. I still had a cleaning lady once a week, so we got the bed linens changed.\n\n I’m not very talkative today. I don’t know.

[Assistant] No, you’ve given some good details. Did NASA provide any sort of family activities that you went to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Camp Fire Girls. Yes. I did that. Jamee’s group, I ran that for a while. I was busy. That’s for sure. I try to think back about what I was doing, and I can’t remember.

[Assistant] I imagine some of it is kind of mundane, probably cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids.

[User] Yes. We had chores that had to be assigned to people. I had a chart on the back porch that had the names and the jobs for that week. They had to be responsible. At some point, I don’t remember how old they were, but I know that when I started law school after Jerry flew, they all had to cook dinner one night a week, because I didn’t get home till six o’clock every night. They did their own laundry. I still had a cleaning lady once a week, so we got the bed linens changed.\n\n I’m not very talkative today. I don’t know.

[Assistant] No, you’ve given some good details. Did NASA provide any sort of family activities that you went to?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Like time at AstroWorld?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Like time at AstroWorld?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No picnics?

[User] Nothing. We never even had a picnic together. I thought it was pretty lame. I tried to do things with our group but I didn’t try to do anything with the whole group, because it wasn’t that cohesive. I don’t understand these wives who talk about how close we were. I didn’t think we were, not anything like the military anyway. The military, you had a built-in support group. Your squadron was your support group. You just kind of had to make your own support group here. Find some people.\n\n Joan Aldrin was another one that I used to like to visit with. She was interesting.

[Assistant] In what way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No picnics?

[User] Nothing. We never even had a picnic together. I thought it was pretty lame. I tried to do things with our group but I didn’t try to do anything with the whole group, because it wasn’t that cohesive. I don’t understand these wives who talk about how close we were. I didn’t think we were, not anything like the military anyway. The military, you had a built-in support group. Your squadron was your support group. You just kind of had to make your own support group here. Find some people.\n\n Joan Aldrin was another one that I used to like to visit with. She was interesting.

[Assistant] In what way?

[User] She had a very different life than I did. I pretty much went from daddy to husband. She had had a life of her own. She was an actress, and she was just an interesting person. She talked about something other than kids and households.

[Assistant] What sort of things would she talk to you about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t. He was never backup for anything, so he was always a support crew, which was the third generation.

[Assistant] What are your memories of Apollo 8?

[User] Susan Borman invited me over to be with her when they went into lunar orbit, and so I spent that time with her. I was reluctant to just go to somebody’s house uninvited, so I didn’t do that. But she invited me over. Actually I was the only one there. That was odd. I don’t know why.

[Assistant] Why do you think she invited you over?

[User] I don’t know. Maybe because Jerry was going to be CapCom [Capsule Communicator] when they went into lunar orbit. I think it was something like that. She invited me over.

[Assistant] Was there any emotion associated with that that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Susan Borman invited me over to be with her when they went into lunar orbit, and so I spent that time with her. I was reluctant to just go to somebody’s house uninvited, so I didn’t do that. But she invited me over. Actually I was the only one there. That was odd. I don’t know why.

[Assistant] Why do you think she invited you over?

[User] I don’t know. Maybe because Jerry was going to be CapCom [Capsule Communicator] when they went into lunar orbit. I think it was something like that. She invited me over.

[Assistant] Was there any emotion associated with that that you recall?

[User] She was pretty tense. She was pretty uptight and out of it.

[Assistant] She must have been relieved though at that moment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. Maybe because Jerry was going to be CapCom [Capsule Communicator] when they went into lunar orbit. I think it was something like that. She invited me over.

[Assistant] Was there any emotion associated with that that you recall?

[User] She was pretty tense. She was pretty uptight and out of it.

[Assistant] She must have been relieved though at that moment.

[User] She was. I think she definitely was. There were people outside her house so she went out and talked to them. They were reporters. She went out and talked to them after they’d done their lunar insertion and come back on the other side. It was a pretty tense time.

[Assistant] Did you have any fears yourself, or were you pretty confident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was pretty tense. She was pretty uptight and out of it.

[Assistant] She must have been relieved though at that moment.

[User] She was. I think she definitely was. There were people outside her house so she went out and talked to them. They were reporters. She went out and talked to them after they’d done their lunar insertion and come back on the other side. It was a pretty tense time.

[Assistant] Did you have any fears yourself, or were you pretty confident?

[User] No. I was really confident. I probably didn’t know enough to be worried.

[Assistant] What about Apollo 11? Where were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was. I think she definitely was. There were people outside her house so she went out and talked to them. They were reporters. She went out and talked to them after they’d done their lunar insertion and come back on the other side. It was a pretty tense time.

[Assistant] Did you have any fears yourself, or were you pretty confident?

[User] No. I was really confident. I probably didn’t know enough to be worried.

[Assistant] What about Apollo 11? Where were you?

[User] I was in Joan Aldrin’s house sitting on the floor next to her in front of the TV when they landed.

[Assistant] Was that a relief for you as an astronaut spouse?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was really confident. I probably didn’t know enough to be worried.

[Assistant] What about Apollo 11? Where were you?

[User] I was in Joan Aldrin’s house sitting on the floor next to her in front of the TV when they landed.

[Assistant] Was that a relief for you as an astronaut spouse?

[User] Yes. That was a big relief. When they landed it wasn’t a big hoopla, big celebration, because—I said this at church—they still had to get off the Moon. They still had to rendezvous with the command module. They still had a lot of critical burns and critical other things that they had to do before they could get home. It wasn’t like splashdown where everybody celebrates. It really wasn’t like that. The lunar landing was more of a let out your breath that you’d been holding.

[Assistant] Did you bring your kids with you to Susan’s and Joan’s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in Joan Aldrin’s house sitting on the floor next to her in front of the TV when they landed.

[Assistant] Was that a relief for you as an astronaut spouse?

[User] Yes. That was a big relief. When they landed it wasn’t a big hoopla, big celebration, because—I said this at church—they still had to get off the Moon. They still had to rendezvous with the command module. They still had a lot of critical burns and critical other things that they had to do before they could get home. It wasn’t like splashdown where everybody celebrates. It really wasn’t like that. The lunar landing was more of a let out your breath that you’d been holding.

[Assistant] Did you bring your kids with you to Susan’s and Joan’s?

[User] No, I didn’t, they weren’t invited. They wouldn’t have known what was going on anyway, I don’t think.

[Assistant] You don’t think they had a sense of what was happening in the NASA program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was a big relief. When they landed it wasn’t a big hoopla, big celebration, because—I said this at church—they still had to get off the Moon. They still had to rendezvous with the command module. They still had a lot of critical burns and critical other things that they had to do before they could get home. It wasn’t like splashdown where everybody celebrates. It really wasn’t like that. The lunar landing was more of a let out your breath that you’d been holding.

[Assistant] Did you bring your kids with you to Susan’s and Joan’s?

[User] No, I didn’t, they weren’t invited. They wouldn’t have known what was going on anyway, I don’t think.

[Assistant] You don’t think they had a sense of what was happening in the NASA program?

[User] They say now that they don’t remember very much about it. We didn’t take them to the houses of the crew wives.

[Assistant] You weren’t talking much about what was happening at NASA over the dinner table, or were you more concerned with other issues?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t, they weren’t invited. They wouldn’t have known what was going on anyway, I don’t think.

[Assistant] You don’t think they had a sense of what was happening in the NASA program?

[User] They say now that they don’t remember very much about it. We didn’t take them to the houses of the crew wives.

[Assistant] You weren’t talking much about what was happening at NASA over the dinner table, or were you more concerned with other issues?

[User] Oh yes, I think we were. It was not something memorable, because I don’t remember very much, but obviously to me anyway we talked about what was going on, not in any detail though. I didn’t explain to the kids all the things that had to happen for them to out of lunar orbit and back home.

[Assistant] A lot of the guys we’ve talked to talk about how they kind of missed what was happening in the ’60s because their heads were buried so deep in Apollo. Do you kind of feel like it was the same way for the wives? Did you have a sense of what was happening in Vietnam, civil rights, and everything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They say now that they don’t remember very much about it. We didn’t take them to the houses of the crew wives.

[Assistant] You weren’t talking much about what was happening at NASA over the dinner table, or were you more concerned with other issues?

[User] Oh yes, I think we were. It was not something memorable, because I don’t remember very much, but obviously to me anyway we talked about what was going on, not in any detail though. I didn’t explain to the kids all the things that had to happen for them to out of lunar orbit and back home.

[Assistant] A lot of the guys we’ve talked to talk about how they kind of missed what was happening in the ’60s because their heads were buried so deep in Apollo. Do you kind of feel like it was the same way for the wives? Did you have a sense of what was happening in Vietnam, civil rights, and everything else?

[User] I had a sense of it, because friends of ours in the Marine Corps were going to Vietnam and we were going to the Indy 500. I didn’t talk to those people very much because I didn’t know what to say to them. Their husbands were getting shot down in Vietnam, coming home in wheelchairs, and I was going to the Indy 500 as a guest of some rich people. I didn’t stay in touch with them very good. I felt guilty, I think, that we were living such an interesting life, and that we didn’t have to go to Vietnam. I was so glad of that.

[Assistant] Did that cross your mind when Jerry came and told you, when you were making that spaghetti sauce, of that relief? Did that wash over you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I think we were. It was not something memorable, because I don’t remember very much, but obviously to me anyway we talked about what was going on, not in any detail though. I didn’t explain to the kids all the things that had to happen for them to out of lunar orbit and back home.

[Assistant] A lot of the guys we’ve talked to talk about how they kind of missed what was happening in the ’60s because their heads were buried so deep in Apollo. Do you kind of feel like it was the same way for the wives? Did you have a sense of what was happening in Vietnam, civil rights, and everything else?

[User] I had a sense of it, because friends of ours in the Marine Corps were going to Vietnam and we were going to the Indy 500. I didn’t talk to those people very much because I didn’t know what to say to them. Their husbands were getting shot down in Vietnam, coming home in wheelchairs, and I was going to the Indy 500 as a guest of some rich people. I didn’t stay in touch with them very good. I felt guilty, I think, that we were living such an interesting life, and that we didn’t have to go to Vietnam. I was so glad of that.

[Assistant] Did that cross your mind when Jerry came and told you, when you were making that spaghetti sauce, of that relief? Did that wash over you?

[User] No, I was just excited. I was real excited that we were going to come and be part of this.

[Assistant] We’ve talked about 11. What about 13? Anything stand out for that flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a sense of it, because friends of ours in the Marine Corps were going to Vietnam and we were going to the Indy 500. I didn’t talk to those people very much because I didn’t know what to say to them. Their husbands were getting shot down in Vietnam, coming home in wheelchairs, and I was going to the Indy 500 as a guest of some rich people. I didn’t stay in touch with them very good. I felt guilty, I think, that we were living such an interesting life, and that we didn’t have to go to Vietnam. I was so glad of that.

[Assistant] Did that cross your mind when Jerry came and told you, when you were making that spaghetti sauce, of that relief? Did that wash over you?

[User] No, I was just excited. I was real excited that we were going to come and be part of this.

[Assistant] We’ve talked about 11. What about 13? Anything stand out for that flight?

[User] We all ended up—I say we all—a lot of us ended up at Mary Haise’s house. Jerry, I don’t know if he was assigned to Mary or not. He might have been assigned to Mary to be with her during that time. I seem to recall that he had something to do with that. We were all sitting around Mary’s house waiting to hear what was going to happen next.\n\n I remember when they came home. We lived just down the street from the Haises, so we went down there when he came home. He climbed up a tree in his front yard so he could see everybody, because all the neighbors were crowded around. That was pretty scary.

[Assistant] I bet. I have heard that some of the neighbors, when the guys would come back from flights, would greet them with American flags. They would line the streets. Was that something that you saw in El Lago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was just excited. I was real excited that we were going to come and be part of this.

[Assistant] We’ve talked about 11. What about 13? Anything stand out for that flight?

[User] We all ended up—I say we all—a lot of us ended up at Mary Haise’s house. Jerry, I don’t know if he was assigned to Mary or not. He might have been assigned to Mary to be with her during that time. I seem to recall that he had something to do with that. We were all sitting around Mary’s house waiting to hear what was going to happen next.\n\n I remember when they came home. We lived just down the street from the Haises, so we went down there when he came home. He climbed up a tree in his front yard so he could see everybody, because all the neighbors were crowded around. That was pretty scary.

[Assistant] I bet. I have heard that some of the neighbors, when the guys would come back from flights, would greet them with American flags. They would line the streets. Was that something that you saw in El Lago?

[User] No, our little neighborhood had a great big flag. It was made out of plywood, and it seemed like it was as big as that whole section of books. [Points] It was really big. Did it have lights on it? Anyway, that went from yard to yard as our husbands flew. That got put up in our yard. We had lights on the stars. Gee, that’s funny, I can’t remember that.

[Assistant] It’s been a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We all ended up—I say we all—a lot of us ended up at Mary Haise’s house. Jerry, I don’t know if he was assigned to Mary or not. He might have been assigned to Mary to be with her during that time. I seem to recall that he had something to do with that. We were all sitting around Mary’s house waiting to hear what was going to happen next.\n\n I remember when they came home. We lived just down the street from the Haises, so we went down there when he came home. He climbed up a tree in his front yard so he could see everybody, because all the neighbors were crowded around. That was pretty scary.

[Assistant] I bet. I have heard that some of the neighbors, when the guys would come back from flights, would greet them with American flags. They would line the streets. Was that something that you saw in El Lago?

[User] No, our little neighborhood had a great big flag. It was made out of plywood, and it seemed like it was as big as that whole section of books. [Points] It was really big. Did it have lights on it? Anyway, that went from yard to yard as our husbands flew. That got put up in our yard. We had lights on the stars. Gee, that’s funny, I can’t remember that.

[Assistant] It’s been a while.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It really has. Were there other traditions that your neighborhood developed while you were there for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter? Timber Cove, for the anniversary of Apollo 8, they put out the luminaries. You mentioned the flag in your neighborhood. Were there other things that got started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, our little neighborhood had a great big flag. It was made out of plywood, and it seemed like it was as big as that whole section of books. [Points] It was really big. Did it have lights on it? Anyway, that went from yard to yard as our husbands flew. That got put up in our yard. We had lights on the stars. Gee, that’s funny, I can’t remember that.

[Assistant] It’s been a while.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It really has. Were there other traditions that your neighborhood developed while you were there for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter? Timber Cove, for the anniversary of Apollo 8, they put out the luminaries. You mentioned the flag in your neighborhood. Were there other things that got started?

[User] I don’t think so. We did the luminaries at Christmastime, but that wasn’t anything to do with the space program.

[Assistant] I know a lot of people didn’t have family down here, so they started their own traditions to bring people together and create a family network.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It really has. Were there other traditions that your neighborhood developed while you were there for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter? Timber Cove, for the anniversary of Apollo 8, they put out the luminaries. You mentioned the flag in your neighborhood. Were there other things that got started?

[User] I don’t think so. We did the luminaries at Christmastime, but that wasn’t anything to do with the space program.

[Assistant] I know a lot of people didn’t have family down here, so they started their own traditions to bring people together and create a family network.

[User] Right. I think we learned that in the military. That was a carryover from the military, as far as I can tell, because the military was much tighter socially than we were here. I don’t know. Maybe it was just because I had so many kids, but I just don’t remember it being one big happy family.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, because someone we interviewed at your church mentioned that. He thought that everyone was a family, that everyone was united behind Apollo, but you didn’t get that sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. We did the luminaries at Christmastime, but that wasn’t anything to do with the space program.

[Assistant] I know a lot of people didn’t have family down here, so they started their own traditions to bring people together and create a family network.

[User] Right. I think we learned that in the military. That was a carryover from the military, as far as I can tell, because the military was much tighter socially than we were here. I don’t know. Maybe it was just because I had so many kids, but I just don’t remember it being one big happy family.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, because someone we interviewed at your church mentioned that. He thought that everyone was a family, that everyone was united behind Apollo, but you didn’t get that sense?

[User] Maybe they were. I don’t know. I was too far in the middle of it to really stand back and look at it.

[Assistant] One thing we didn’t talk about that I wanted to ask you about, and that was your church had the Lunar Communion. What are your memories of that event? Were you at church that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I think we learned that in the military. That was a carryover from the military, as far as I can tell, because the military was much tighter socially than we were here. I don’t know. Maybe it was just because I had so many kids, but I just don’t remember it being one big happy family.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, because someone we interviewed at your church mentioned that. He thought that everyone was a family, that everyone was united behind Apollo, but you didn’t get that sense?

[User] Maybe they were. I don’t know. I was too far in the middle of it to really stand back and look at it.

[Assistant] One thing we didn’t talk about that I wanted to ask you about, and that was your church had the Lunar Communion. What are your memories of that event? Were you at church that day?

[User] Yes. I don’t have any memories of it. I’m sure I was because I was always at church. I don’t know. I guess it was like a family, but I don’t remember anything specific. I’m sure some of the other people at the church felt that, but I didn’t. I wasn’t really aware of who was doing what out there. For instance, [Jack A.] Kinzler is getting a lot of press now, but during the flight he didn’t at all, so we didn’t know what he did until later.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about how you think Apollo affected your family and the other families living here, and whether or not you think you had to make any sacrifices for the Moon landing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe they were. I don’t know. I was too far in the middle of it to really stand back and look at it.

[Assistant] One thing we didn’t talk about that I wanted to ask you about, and that was your church had the Lunar Communion. What are your memories of that event? Were you at church that day?

[User] Yes. I don’t have any memories of it. I’m sure I was because I was always at church. I don’t know. I guess it was like a family, but I don’t remember anything specific. I’m sure some of the other people at the church felt that, but I didn’t. I wasn’t really aware of who was doing what out there. For instance, [Jack A.] Kinzler is getting a lot of press now, but during the flight he didn’t at all, so we didn’t know what he did until later.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about how you think Apollo affected your family and the other families living here, and whether or not you think you had to make any sacrifices for the Moon landing.

[User] I don’t think we saw it, or I didn’t see it, as a sacrifice. It was what their job was. It was what they all wanted. That’s what we were all here for. So I don’t recall that there was that much attention on those flights. I think I was too close in to the inner circle to really get a perspective on what the rest of the world was doing in regard to the space program. I was plugged in to what the rest of the country was doing in terms of changing roles, changing roles in the family. I kind of got caught up in the women’s movement, and that led me to law school. I identified a lot with Joanie Caucus. Do you know who that is?

[Assistant] That name doesn’t sound familiar.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think we saw it, or I didn’t see it, as a sacrifice. It was what their job was. It was what they all wanted. That’s what we were all here for. So I don’t recall that there was that much attention on those flights. I think I was too close in to the inner circle to really get a perspective on what the rest of the world was doing in regard to the space program. I was plugged in to what the rest of the country was doing in terms of changing roles, changing roles in the family. I kind of got caught up in the women’s movement, and that led me to law school. I identified a lot with Joanie Caucus. Do you know who that is?

[Assistant] That name doesn’t sound familiar.

[User] “Doonesbury.”

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] “Doonesbury.”

[Assistant] You mentioned women, and that’s one of the things I’m curious about your thoughts on. I think that the women helped to build this community. As you mentioned, you didn’t see your husband very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Doonesbury.”

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] “Doonesbury.”

[Assistant] You mentioned women, and that’s one of the things I’m curious about your thoughts on. I think that the women helped to build this community. As you mentioned, you didn’t see your husband very much.

[User] No.

[Assistant] What role do you think that women played in helping to create the Clear Lake community? The churches, the schools, all of those things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Doonesbury.”

[Assistant] You mentioned women, and that’s one of the things I’m curious about your thoughts on. I think that the women helped to build this community. As you mentioned, you didn’t see your husband very much.

[User] No.

[Assistant] What role do you think that women played in helping to create the Clear Lake community? The churches, the schools, all of those things.

[User] I think we were definitely seen as leaders in some respect. We were kind of looked up to, I think. I don’t know that that was warranted, but I think that we were kind of set apart. I don’t know if you have any other questions.

[Assistant]
I want to come back and talk about Skylab, but I wanted to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you.

Not right now.

I think this might be a good place to stop, because I want to give some more full attention to the Skylab mission and your involvement, because I think that that deserves some attention. Like you pointed out, it was the last mission. It didn’t get a lot of attention.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] What role do you think that women played in helping to create the Clear Lake community? The churches, the schools, all of those things.

[User] I think we were definitely seen as leaders in some respect. We were kind of looked up to, I think. I don’t know that that was warranted, but I think that we were kind of set apart. I don’t know if you have any other questions.

[Assistant]
I want to come back and talk about Skylab, but I wanted to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you.

Not right now.

I think this might be a good place to stop, because I want to give some more full attention to the Skylab mission and your involvement, because I think that that deserves some attention. Like you pointed out, it was the last mission. It didn’t get a lot of attention.

[User] No, it didn’t, which was okay, but I didn’t get a lot of support either. I was very involved in the mission. I had the squawk boxes in the living room and my bedroom to listen to all the air-to-ground. I had the transcripts of the air-to-ground and mission control delivered to my house every morning. I listened to Jerry on the phone. We got to talk every third day; we got to talk on the phone.\n\n I was not very pleased with the way the media was painting that crew. They were painting them as rookies because they were slow, but they were slow for a reason. It wasn’t because of anything they did. I’m getting into deep water here. I don’t think I want to go there.

[Assistant] How about this? How about you give it some thought, and then we come back and talk about Skylab? Would you like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were definitely seen as leaders in some respect. We were kind of looked up to, I think. I don’t know that that was warranted, but I think that we were kind of set apart. I don’t know if you have any other questions.

[Assistant]
I want to come back and talk about Skylab, but I wanted to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you.

Not right now.

I think this might be a good place to stop, because I want to give some more full attention to the Skylab mission and your involvement, because I think that that deserves some attention. Like you pointed out, it was the last mission. It didn’t get a lot of attention.

[User] No, it didn’t, which was okay, but I didn’t get a lot of support either. I was very involved in the mission. I had the squawk boxes in the living room and my bedroom to listen to all the air-to-ground. I had the transcripts of the air-to-ground and mission control delivered to my house every morning. I listened to Jerry on the phone. We got to talk every third day; we got to talk on the phone.\n\n I was not very pleased with the way the media was painting that crew. They were painting them as rookies because they were slow, but they were slow for a reason. It wasn’t because of anything they did. I’m getting into deep water here. I don’t think I want to go there.

[Assistant] How about this? How about you give it some thought, and then we come back and talk about Skylab? Would you like that?

[User] We could do that, yes.

[Assistant] You want to make some notes for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked on a little bit of everything. What I did is after I had the tasking done, to make sure divided among the crew on a particular shift, and that it was well balanced. You also have to make sure it’s trainable. The amount of training time isn’t always related to the amount of time on orbit, so you have to make sure that the person has the time to train for it. Then I would take sort of what was left over, and I always made sure I had some time to back up as well, put a little more pad in my time, so that if someone else that was a rookie, for example, needed some help, where I made it a two-person operation, I would do that as well.

[Assistant] Were there any challenges that you faced during this mission?

[User] During STS-50?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Challenges. I’m almost guilty to say it. It was an extremely smooth flight. It was on Columbia, with the Spacelab. There were no failures of anything. The only event we had in the flight was that one of the furnaces had a large power switch and a switch guard was not narrow enough to preclude somebody’s toe from getting in and turning the furnace off, which was a great disappointment to the investigator, but we were able to load some backup samples in. That was, as I recall, the only big event. Everything else was extremely successful. We eventually flew a follow-on flight to that, called USML-2, with a lot of the same hardware, but now flying the next generation of research.

[Assistant] I’m wondering if you can compare this Spacelab flight with your first Spacelab flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During STS-50?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Challenges. I’m almost guilty to say it. It was an extremely smooth flight. It was on Columbia, with the Spacelab. There were no failures of anything. The only event we had in the flight was that one of the furnaces had a large power switch and a switch guard was not narrow enough to preclude somebody’s toe from getting in and turning the furnace off, which was a great disappointment to the investigator, but we were able to load some backup samples in. That was, as I recall, the only big event. Everything else was extremely successful. We eventually flew a follow-on flight to that, called USML-2, with a lot of the same hardware, but now flying the next generation of research.

[Assistant] I’m wondering if you can compare this Spacelab flight with your first Spacelab flight.

[User] Well, let’s see. Both Spacelabs, different countries, both eighteen-month flows, both very successful in terms of the output of the science. You executed the research; the researchers got results. The vehicles, Challenger and Columbia, both performed beautifully. We didn’t lose any research due to any failure on the systems level. Different cultures for training, one I was very familiar with, the NASA culture. The German culture I became familiar with, and it was a learning journey for them as well. The D-1 mission had many purposes, and science was one of them. In fact, the Spacelab was built in Germany by MBB [Messerschmitt-Boklow-Blahn]/ERNO [Entwicklungts Ring Nord Organization], but it was also a national symbol, and they were hoping to galvanize and rejuvenate their youth, stimulate their youth into education and exploration.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship, what that was like, especially being on two separate teams, on STS-50?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as crewmembers you bond with your families as well, particularly close to flight. The families get to know one another; you’re in quarantine, you see your families together as well. So it’s more than just the crewmembers; it’s the families that do that as well. So it’s social events. You spend all day together in classes and simulators. It’s a natural process of getting ready to fly.

[Assistant] Any interesting anecdotes from the flight that you recall?

[User] Oh gee, I’d have to really think hard. There probably was, but I can’t think of them right offhand.

[Assistant] You were up there during the Fourth of July, did you have any sort of festivities or any markers that this was the Fourth of July and you were in space?

[User] Yes, actually. We played some music down over Fourth of July. I can’t remember which one it was, but it was maybe a country-and-western song. Then we’d taken some video across the U.S. and ended up looking right down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], it worked out just right, and we played that down to mission control. There were also a couple of passes over my home state, Washington State and the Yakima Valley, and I still show those pictures when I go on tour.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to work with SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment] while you were up on the flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gee, I’d have to really think hard. There probably was, but I can’t think of them right offhand.

[Assistant] You were up there during the Fourth of July, did you have any sort of festivities or any markers that this was the Fourth of July and you were in space?

[User] Yes, actually. We played some music down over Fourth of July. I can’t remember which one it was, but it was maybe a country-and-western song. Then we’d taken some video across the U.S. and ended up looking right down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], it worked out just right, and we played that down to mission control. There were also a couple of passes over my home state, Washington State and the Yakima Valley, and I still show those pictures when I go on tour.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to work with SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment] while you were up on the flight?

[User] Yes, I did. Not very much, because mostly that was the flight deck crew, but I did a little bit. I did most of my SAREX or ham radio work actually on a later flight, on STS-89.

[Assistant] What was your call sign, do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, actually. We played some music down over Fourth of July. I can’t remember which one it was, but it was maybe a country-and-western song. Then we’d taken some video across the U.S. and ended up looking right down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], it worked out just right, and we played that down to mission control. There were also a couple of passes over my home state, Washington State and the Yakima Valley, and I still show those pictures when I go on tour.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to work with SAREX [Shuttle Amateur Radio Experiment] while you were up on the flight?

[User] Yes, I did. Not very much, because mostly that was the flight deck crew, but I did a little bit. I did most of my SAREX or ham radio work actually on a later flight, on STS-89.

[Assistant] What was your call sign, do you remember?

[User] Oh, you’re going to ask me. I haven’t used the call sign in five years, I think, so I don’t have that memorized.

[Assistant] What do people most often ask you that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. Not very much, because mostly that was the flight deck crew, but I did a little bit. I did most of my SAREX or ham radio work actually on a later flight, on STS-89.

[Assistant] What was your call sign, do you remember?

[User] Oh, you’re going to ask me. I haven’t used the call sign in five years, I think, so I don’t have that memorized.

[Assistant] What do people most often ask you that you recall?

[User] From STS-50? Well, it’s 1992, so it’s now, what, thirteen years in history. It’s hard to believe. It seems like yesterday to me. I think we’re losing our corporate memory. We’re talking about building a capability for Station, and with a lot of people doubting the promise, and it’s because they’ve forgotten we’ve already done most of that; we’re trying to go the next step. This isn’t about an if; it’s about a when. We know we can go these things. We’ve built a framework; we’ve built a platform, and now it’s important to do it.

[Assistant] Your flight was actually scheduled to land on July 8th, but you ended up landing a day later. What did you do with that extra day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was almost like being in a war mentality. [Laughs] It was an unusual time. I’d been up there post Challenger and that was an expected unusual time, you know; you’re working after an accident, and I was one of about three astronauts working for Admiral [Richard H.] Truly at that time, kind of rotating up there. I’d sort of expected it to be a little more structured this time, but it wasn’t, because we had a new Administrator; we were redesigning the Station; we had continual congressional committees to support. There was a new vote on the Space Station; we won by one vote. So we were doing a lot of work, seven days a week. I was living in Crystal City [Virginia], and I can recall not seeing daylight a lot. I mean, from my apartment I could go down, get into the subway, get out two blocks away from NASA Headquarters. That’s the only time I was outdoors. Get in the building; work all day. It’d be dark when I got out. Go to the subway. Get up in my apartment. [Laughs] And did that for nearly a year, as I expect many people did.

[Assistant] When you found out that you were coming back to JSC, what was your reaction?

[User] Actually, I helped make that decision. It was almost a year. I knew there were a couple of things where I had to precipitate a decision. Your tax status changes once you’re there longer than a year, and we had sort of everything up and running. We were transitioning the Station management back down to Johnson Space Center. Code U was up and running, and I was ready to come back. So I said, “It’s probably time,” and they said, “Okay.” So I came back in I think it was December of ’93.

[Assistant] Around that time Dave [David C.] Leestma approached you.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us that story?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My first flight was a process of both learning the German culture and the German systems, as well as ours; it was my first training flow. So out of that, I took both those experiences with me to Russia. We have a process that works. We were trying to integrate another country with that. You know to what extent you can compromise and actually perhaps be in a position to do that, and what places you can’t. So that’s experience, I guess—that’s a good word for it—and a competence of knowing what you know and don’t know. It was a learning process, I think, that helped in Russia.\n\n Actually, it was kind of funny when I first got there and met my first Russian flight surgeon, and I was still learning Russian, obviously. He didn’t know any English, but we both knew German, so the first walk we took, we were talking in German.

[Assistant] So do you still keep up both languages, German and Russian?

[User] No, because you don’t have an opportunity to, but it’s funny where that’s stored in your brain. Every once in a while something will come up and you’ll want to speak Russian and you’re speaking German. It’s interesting. Or all of a sudden I’ll have some thoughts in Russian, or I’ll see something and all the German words will come up. I’d love to have the opportunity to keep up with it, but I don’t.

[Assistant] What was the thing that you missed most about the U.S. when you were over in Russia?

[User] Family and friends. The things that are always close to you in regard to relationships, I think, are what you miss the most. My husband, of course, was still over here as well, and the phone communication was very poor. We had no mail, so that made it difficult.

[Assistant] So how did you stay in contact? Just e-mails, is that how you stayed in contact?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because you don’t have an opportunity to, but it’s funny where that’s stored in your brain. Every once in a while something will come up and you’ll want to speak Russian and you’re speaking German. It’s interesting. Or all of a sudden I’ll have some thoughts in Russian, or I’ll see something and all the German words will come up. I’d love to have the opportunity to keep up with it, but I don’t.

[Assistant] What was the thing that you missed most about the U.S. when you were over in Russia?

[User] Family and friends. The things that are always close to you in regard to relationships, I think, are what you miss the most. My husband, of course, was still over here as well, and the phone communication was very poor. We had no mail, so that made it difficult.

[Assistant] So how did you stay in contact? Just e-mails, is that how you stayed in contact?

[User] When the e-mail system got up, then that was primarily how we did it.

[Assistant] Were you able to see a Soyuz launch while you were over there in Russia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Family and friends. The things that are always close to you in regard to relationships, I think, are what you miss the most. My husband, of course, was still over here as well, and the phone communication was very poor. We had no mail, so that made it difficult.

[Assistant] So how did you stay in contact? Just e-mails, is that how you stayed in contact?

[User] When the e-mail system got up, then that was primarily how we did it.

[Assistant] Were you able to see a Soyuz launch while you were over there in Russia?

[User] No. We didn’t go to Baikonur [Cosmodrome] until actually we went down for what we would call our launch countdown test. We went down several weeks before launch to do the fit check in the Soyuz to see whether or not—they do custom-made seats called l____. The guy who actually carved my seat was the same old gentleman that carved Yuri Gagarin’s seat. You get into a shell and they pour plaster of Paris around you as you’re on your back, and let it sort of harden, mostly. You’re actually wearing a kind of a body suit. Get out of it, and then he carves out a tolerance level for your pressure suit, and you keep fitting it, and then that shell goes into a metal cradle well in your launch and entry suit. Well, you have to check all that out before launch; make sure you’re knees clear the instrument panel in front of you. That was the first time I’d even seen a Soyuz, the first time I’d ever been down to Baikonur. So that would have been in the early part of ’95.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about the book, Dragonfly, in ’98 that book came out. What were your thoughts about that book when it first came out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t tell you, because in Russia I never saw the U.S. press, and I came back and was so busy training, I think other people on the outside are a better judge. I don’t know. Did it get a lot of attention? It was the first docking mission between the two. I hope it did, but I don’t know.

[Assistant] Give us a sense of the historic precedent of this mission, from your perspective.

[User] From my perspective, it was the first docking between Russia and the U.S. since Apollo-Soyuz [Test Project]. Apollo-Soyuz, I think we all hoped that that would have been a thawing in the Cold War. It was a great experience, but it didn’t thaw, not to the extent that we would have liked. But now, this mission was called Phase 1A, which meant it was a phase leading into International Space Station, but there was a Phase 1A and then a 1B. OneA, the Russians trained us at their cost in Russia, and we trained the cosmonaut, Sergei Krikalev, at our cost in the U.S., so it was kind of a trade. And Phase 1B, then the U.S. trained to fly a number of Americans on the Mir, and built facilities, housing facilities, to provide infrastructure there at Star City.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo-Soyuz. Was that still prominent in the memories of the Russians when you went over there?

[User] Yes, because the medical facility there, or the quarantine facility, we’d actually built. The “Prophy” it was called, Prophylactoria, which is a medical isolation facility. So some of the older people there, there are actually quite a few, remember Apollo-Soyuz.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the launch of this flight? We talked about your first launch, but what are your memories of the launch of this flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t bring any; it’s what they packed for us. I think it was fruit and chocolates, but I don’t remember. You sort of find out when you’re there, because maybe Ellen was in charge of gifts. “Oh what did they pack?” “Oh, I think we’re giving them chocolates and fruit.”

[Assistant] So what was the ceremony like? Was it something that was preplanned, pre-scripted?

[User] Just the time-lining part of it and the exchange. All the crews there around the Mir dining room table, and we make sure the cameras are set up and so forth. We get the “go” from Houston that everything’s enabled. Then the commanders each say something and they shake hands and we all shake hands. Then there’s an end to that, and everybody’s on the watch at that end, we have to do exchange, you had to get experiments back and forth, we have to get stowage, supplies back and forth, and it all has to be done before the next big milestone, which, on that flight, I think we went to bed at different times, so mealtime, so we had to get back on the flight plan, so it was very much choreographed.

[Assistant] What did you do after these ceremonies?

[User] Research and transfers, we call it, and handovers on the crew. Actually the old crew starts handing over to the new crew, so we actually kind of separated into different groups. You’ve got the Russian cosmonauts doing their handover, getting Norm off and into the Spacelab, actually, because Ellen and I started doing the medical exams on the two cosmonauts and Norm, and that was on the flight plan, and there were other things that they had to get done, so it was a combination of a lot of different things over those dock days.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us a little bit about those medical exams and what sort of things that you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once we were docked and started it, it was full-day operations, then that’s what I did most of the day. They weren’t all three in there at a time because there were still handover activities going on on Mir, so we had the old crew and Norm in there most of the time.

[Assistant] What else did you do while you were on this mission?

[User] I think I’ve characterized operating the medical research. Of course, during docking and undocking, working the VHF radio, the integrated flight plan, monitoring some of the systems on the displays. I’d have to look at the flight plan to see what else I did.

[Assistant] What are your memories of Mir? Maybe you could describe it for us.

[User] I will never forget the first time we opened the hatch. It smelled like a well-used Russian kitchen; I could smell all the food coming in. Then I also smelled mildew, because they’d had a problem with airflow and stagnation, and in the cold parts of the station they’d had condensate develop, and it had been seeping into some of their thermal blankets, and actually they had been developing a mildew. So I was very sensitive to that smell, because I grew up in the Northwest, where I’d never smelled it. The first time I ever smelled it was coming into [William P.] Hobby Airport [Houston, Texas], and I remember saying, “What is that smell?” and it imprinted on my brain. So when we opened the hatch to Mir, I said, “That is mildew. I know that smell.” And sure enough, where we docked, and through that module, which would have been—was maybe Kvant—I’ll have to think about which one it is—as we floated through, and we had to pull ourselves on a line they had strung, there were some damp blankets that you could feel. And there was a window there that you could actually see some of the water condensing on.

[Assistant] You were also up there during Fourth of July again. Do you remember celebrating the Fourth of July?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I’ve characterized operating the medical research. Of course, during docking and undocking, working the VHF radio, the integrated flight plan, monitoring some of the systems on the displays. I’d have to look at the flight plan to see what else I did.

[Assistant] What are your memories of Mir? Maybe you could describe it for us.

[User] I will never forget the first time we opened the hatch. It smelled like a well-used Russian kitchen; I could smell all the food coming in. Then I also smelled mildew, because they’d had a problem with airflow and stagnation, and in the cold parts of the station they’d had condensate develop, and it had been seeping into some of their thermal blankets, and actually they had been developing a mildew. So I was very sensitive to that smell, because I grew up in the Northwest, where I’d never smelled it. The first time I ever smelled it was coming into [William P.] Hobby Airport [Houston, Texas], and I remember saying, “What is that smell?” and it imprinted on my brain. So when we opened the hatch to Mir, I said, “That is mildew. I know that smell.” And sure enough, where we docked, and through that module, which would have been—was maybe Kvant—I’ll have to think about which one it is—as we floated through, and we had to pull ourselves on a line they had strung, there were some damp blankets that you could feel. And there was a window there that you could actually see some of the water condensing on.

[Assistant] You were also up there during Fourth of July again. Do you remember celebrating the Fourth of July?

[User] No, I don’t. Maybe we didn’t make a big deal of it because we were docked with the Russians at that time. I’m sure there was something we did, but it may have just been so busy and came and went, that I don’t recall.

[Assistant] What are your memories of closing up that hatch and your feelings at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t. Maybe we didn’t make a big deal of it because we were docked with the Russians at that time. I’m sure there was something we did, but it may have just been so busy and came and went, that I don’t recall.

[Assistant] What are your memories of closing up that hatch and your feelings at that point?

[User] We were joking about it. I remember that the Russians were talking—I have to think real hard about this—and I took Anatoly and Nikolai over some tortillas. They liked American food, and we had a lot of food left over and we were trying to find stowage volume for foam that we were bringing back, that had been in the Spektr module, where we’d had experiments, and we couldn’t jettison it overboard. So we were trying to find places for this foam, and we had extra food; we’d left it with them. I remember finding some tortillas, which Anatoly really liked, some of the great big soft Mexican tortillas. I took it over to him, so I was on the Mir side and we were getting close to hatch-closing. We’d already enabled the Russians, I was on the headset where I could hear both, and someone from the ground asked—I guess they saw me on camera—asked me which side of the hatch was I going to stay on, and I said, “Oh, I think I’ll stay on the Mir side.” Of course, they knew I was joking. [Laughs] I said, “Unfortunately, I’m going to be going to the U.S. side.” So I shook hands with them, and we closed the hatch and started the separation operations.

[Assistant] Do you recall what you spent some of your free time doing with the various crews?

[User] Before flight or during flight?

[Assistant] Before or during flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We all do, yes, do it as a crew and you do it as an individual. We’re always invited back to our home states, and I always went back to Washington state to talk about the flights.

[Assistant] Did you do any PR in Russia after this flight?

[User] We went back, of course, and we did some debriefing, but they don’t do the kind of post-flight tours we do, or like the Germans did. We did a German post-flight tour with the whole crew that was quite remarkable, and saw a lot of Germany, but it wasn’t quite the same in Russia.

[Assistant] I also noticed, when I was looking through some of the materials, that you took up a Houston Rockets guard uniform.

[User] Oh yes. Anatoly loved basketball. I wasn’t part of this; it was arranged by some other folks on the crew, but I think they were getting ready to reveal their new uniform logo, and so they gave Anatoly the opportunity to wear the shirt.

[Assistant] How neat. We have about twenty more minutes left, so do you want to talk about your work with the Mission Operations Directorate [MOD] in ’95, when you were working as an Assistant Director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went back, of course, and we did some debriefing, but they don’t do the kind of post-flight tours we do, or like the Germans did. We did a German post-flight tour with the whole crew that was quite remarkable, and saw a lot of Germany, but it wasn’t quite the same in Russia.

[Assistant] I also noticed, when I was looking through some of the materials, that you took up a Houston Rockets guard uniform.

[User] Oh yes. Anatoly loved basketball. I wasn’t part of this; it was arranged by some other folks on the crew, but I think they were getting ready to reveal their new uniform logo, and so they gave Anatoly the opportunity to wear the shirt.

[Assistant] How neat. We have about twenty more minutes left, so do you want to talk about your work with the Mission Operations Directorate [MOD] in ’95, when you were working as an Assistant Director?

[User] Yes. I came off of STS-71 in ’95, and then I started working on I think it was the Soyuz TM development. We flew in what was called a Soyuz T, or that’s what I trained in, and the U.S. part of Phase 1 and on to Station was investing in some modifications to Soyuz, some upgrades on the displays and sizing and so forth. So because I had trained on Soyuz, I was asked to be part of that group. I was working on that into the fall, and then I received a call from Jim [D.] Shannon, who was Deputy Director of MOD. Jim had actually been one of my early bosses when I was a payload officer in MOD. He asked if I’d come over and help them, kind of help coordinate the training for ISS, “Look at what we’re doing, run a board, do a gap analysis and see how we could do things better.”\n\n And I said, “Sounds like a great opportunity to me.” So I became Assistant Director in MOD, and was there until early ’97.

[Assistant] What sort of recommendations did you make?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There were splashdown parties at the end of the Apollo Program, at the end of each mission.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were there parties at the end of each successful Shuttle mission?

[User] There were.

[Assistant] Was there one for STS-1 that you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were there parties at the end of each successful Shuttle mission?

[User] There were.

[Assistant] Was there one for STS-1 that you recall?

[User] There was. Oh, boy, was there. I don’t know that there’s anything particular to tell about it. But, no, there were some great parties. I actually don’t remember exactly all of those things, partly because after STS-1 we were then working pretty hard on STS-2, and then I was assigned to spaceflight. So I was now not thinking so much about partying, but about getting ready. The date of STS-1 was what, Jennifer? In the spring of ’81?

[Assistant] I don’t have the exact date with me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were.

[Assistant] Was there one for STS-1 that you recall?

[User] There was. Oh, boy, was there. I don’t know that there’s anything particular to tell about it. But, no, there were some great parties. I actually don’t remember exactly all of those things, partly because after STS-1 we were then working pretty hard on STS-2, and then I was assigned to spaceflight. So I was now not thinking so much about partying, but about getting ready. The date of STS-1 was what, Jennifer? In the spring of ’81?

[Assistant] I don’t have the exact date with me.

[User] The spring of ’81, something like that?

[Assistant] I believe so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was. Oh, boy, was there. I don’t know that there’s anything particular to tell about it. But, no, there were some great parties. I actually don’t remember exactly all of those things, partly because after STS-1 we were then working pretty hard on STS-2, and then I was assigned to spaceflight. So I was now not thinking so much about partying, but about getting ready. The date of STS-1 was what, Jennifer? In the spring of ’81?

[Assistant] I don’t have the exact date with me.

[User] The spring of ’81, something like that?

[Assistant] I believe so.

[User] Because then I flew in the fall of ’82, so we were a year and a half away and we were going to fly STS-2, -3, and –4. So they’re going to come off pretty quickly in that year and a half. We had time for some parties, but not for a lot of parties.

[Assistant] Why don’t you tell me about the day you finally heard you were going to be put on a flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would at least take fifteen minutes.

[Assistant] That would be fine.

[User] I joined the Cosmonaut Corps in 1965. In 1975, I flew to the orbital station Salyut 5 and Soyuz 24. The mission was not that long, but for that time it was considered quite long; it lasted eighteen days.\n\n After a while, being a member of the Cosmonaut Corps, I transferred to work with the training. I was the head of the Department of Training, where I had all the instructors who trained to fly on Soyuz or Salyut and then later on the Mir station. I was the deputy heading the science department. Then I headed the training department, and now I'm the first deputy at the Russian State Research Gagarin Training Center.\n\n As far as my educational background, I have a doctorate. I'm a professor and academician, and I am an author as well. I published a book. But I think that's plenty. How much can I talk about myself? (laughter)

[Assistant] Let me ask you a specific question about your Soyuz 24 flight to the Salyut 5 space station.

[User] Yes, please.

[Assistant] We read in one of the books that it was reported that you caught a cold on flight and you came up with an idea of how to cure yourself of the cold by sunbathing in front of the window. Can you tell us about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I joined the Cosmonaut Corps in 1965. In 1975, I flew to the orbital station Salyut 5 and Soyuz 24. The mission was not that long, but for that time it was considered quite long; it lasted eighteen days.\n\n After a while, being a member of the Cosmonaut Corps, I transferred to work with the training. I was the head of the Department of Training, where I had all the instructors who trained to fly on Soyuz or Salyut and then later on the Mir station. I was the deputy heading the science department. Then I headed the training department, and now I'm the first deputy at the Russian State Research Gagarin Training Center.\n\n As far as my educational background, I have a doctorate. I'm a professor and academician, and I am an author as well. I published a book. But I think that's plenty. How much can I talk about myself? (laughter)

[Assistant] Let me ask you a specific question about your Soyuz 24 flight to the Salyut 5 space station.

[User] Yes, please.

[Assistant] We read in one of the books that it was reported that you caught a cold on flight and you came up with an idea of how to cure yourself of the cold by sunbathing in front of the window. Can you tell us about that?

[User] This is very simple, a very simple cure. You just put your nose to the window and the solar arrays cure your cold. It's very simple, and I suggest to anybody who has a cold, try to fly up there. (laughter)

[Assistant] Also the book mentioned that on your flight that you had to exchange some of the air in the Salyut space station, and that almost created a breeze by opening the dump valve on one end and intake valve on the other to move the air through there. Could you talk about that a little bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m just a kid who’s an engineer out here, and to have that opportunity.

[Assistant] And you were very young. You were nineteen, right after your freshman year when you first came out.

[User] Yeah, nineteen.

[Assistant] Were the other co-ops that young, or was that common for them to come after their freshman year?

[User] Yes, yes. There were a lot of co-ops. I would bet there were three hundred probably at that point, at least, and we were everywhere. We didn’t go anywhere and work on something without rubbing elbows with other co-ops. It was a very active program, and there were a lot of social activities. The co-op office, rightly, did a lot of work to pair people up to be roommates, so it was a pretty tight-knit community.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, nineteen.

[Assistant] Were the other co-ops that young, or was that common for them to come after their freshman year?

[User] Yes, yes. There were a lot of co-ops. I would bet there were three hundred probably at that point, at least, and we were everywhere. We didn’t go anywhere and work on something without rubbing elbows with other co-ops. It was a very active program, and there were a lot of social activities. The co-op office, rightly, did a lot of work to pair people up to be roommates, so it was a pretty tight-knit community.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you came?

[User] I lived—the first summer I was here in ’67—in Nassau Bay. It was called the San Sebastian. It’s still there. It’s called something different now. And then every semester after that I ended up living near Hobby Airport in the Villa Monterrey apartments. I don’t remember how—there was an Air Force lieutenant here named Kerry Sandstrom—somehow I was tagged up with him and so we lived together for the semesters I was here. He was here full-time, of course, with the Air Force, but the next three or four semesters I lived with him up near Hobby Airport and drove down here.

[Assistant] You also mentioned, and I’ve read this in other interviews, that NASA routinely threw people in over their heads.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. There were a lot of co-ops. I would bet there were three hundred probably at that point, at least, and we were everywhere. We didn’t go anywhere and work on something without rubbing elbows with other co-ops. It was a very active program, and there were a lot of social activities. The co-op office, rightly, did a lot of work to pair people up to be roommates, so it was a pretty tight-knit community.

[Assistant] Where did you live when you came?

[User] I lived—the first summer I was here in ’67—in Nassau Bay. It was called the San Sebastian. It’s still there. It’s called something different now. And then every semester after that I ended up living near Hobby Airport in the Villa Monterrey apartments. I don’t remember how—there was an Air Force lieutenant here named Kerry Sandstrom—somehow I was tagged up with him and so we lived together for the semesters I was here. He was here full-time, of course, with the Air Force, but the next three or four semesters I lived with him up near Hobby Airport and drove down here.

[Assistant] You also mentioned, and I’ve read this in other interviews, that NASA routinely threw people in over their heads.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And expected results and then gave help as needed. Was that something that you had to adapt to, or how did you feel about that when you first came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived—the first summer I was here in ’67—in Nassau Bay. It was called the San Sebastian. It’s still there. It’s called something different now. And then every semester after that I ended up living near Hobby Airport in the Villa Monterrey apartments. I don’t remember how—there was an Air Force lieutenant here named Kerry Sandstrom—somehow I was tagged up with him and so we lived together for the semesters I was here. He was here full-time, of course, with the Air Force, but the next three or four semesters I lived with him up near Hobby Airport and drove down here.

[Assistant] You also mentioned, and I’ve read this in other interviews, that NASA routinely threw people in over their heads.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And expected results and then gave help as needed. Was that something that you had to adapt to, or how did you feel about that when you first came?

[User] I don’t think I ever knew it was happening. I was that clueless. I was just a wide-eyed kid. Sure, do it. I was given something to do, so my assumption was, “Well, they assume I can do it, so I will.” And of course, sometimes I couldn’t, so I would—but it was a very tight-knit group of people and I always knew that people were there to help and they were always, “How you doing?” It was just a wonderful environment. And I can articulate it today in hindsight that that’s what happened, but I wouldn’t have said it necessarily at the time. It was “isn’t that how work is?” I knew nothing else.

[Assistant] And what an opportunity for you to learn.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And expected results and then gave help as needed. Was that something that you had to adapt to, or how did you feel about that when you first came?

[User] I don’t think I ever knew it was happening. I was that clueless. I was just a wide-eyed kid. Sure, do it. I was given something to do, so my assumption was, “Well, they assume I can do it, so I will.” And of course, sometimes I couldn’t, so I would—but it was a very tight-knit group of people and I always knew that people were there to help and they were always, “How you doing?” It was just a wonderful environment. And I can articulate it today in hindsight that that’s what happened, but I wouldn’t have said it necessarily at the time. It was “isn’t that how work is?” I knew nothing else.

[Assistant] And what an opportunity for you to learn.

[User] Absolutely. I learned so much. Not just technical things, but about people and how things work. How people work.

[Assistant] To be twenty or twenty-one and working with Max Faget.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think I ever knew it was happening. I was that clueless. I was just a wide-eyed kid. Sure, do it. I was given something to do, so my assumption was, “Well, they assume I can do it, so I will.” And of course, sometimes I couldn’t, so I would—but it was a very tight-knit group of people and I always knew that people were there to help and they were always, “How you doing?” It was just a wonderful environment. And I can articulate it today in hindsight that that’s what happened, but I wouldn’t have said it necessarily at the time. It was “isn’t that how work is?” I knew nothing else.

[Assistant] And what an opportunity for you to learn.

[User] Absolutely. I learned so much. Not just technical things, but about people and how things work. How people work.

[Assistant] To be twenty or twenty-one and working with Max Faget.

[User] Yes, yes. A lot of this I have to pinch myself even to remember was real. It’s just incredible, because, as any young person, you launch yourself down a path and who knows what’s going to happen. But to have had all this happen, that’s just amazing. My whole career is that, I have to pinch myself to think of all the things I’ve done and how thankful I am for it and the people that made that happen.

[Assistant] You were beginning to talk about when you first came on full-time in 1971 and how you continued working on what you’d worked on earlier. In 1971, that was a time period, ’71, at the end of Apollo, ’72, when not as many people were being hired. In fact, they were scaling down because of budget.\n\n What was that experience like, for one, being hired during that time period, and why do you think you were retained during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Shuttle itself, no. The biggest thrill, slash, heart stopper was that first flight, STS-1. Boy, when you’re a young engineer, one has confidence in equations and tests, but the more experience one gets: okay, I’ve thought of everything I could think through. We’ve had these reviewed by the smartest engineers in the country, and I’ve done everything I can with each one of these pieces, and I’ve thought through how they all come together. And now you’re actually going to launch it? Because then your image is the boosters come off, they come through the wings or something, or they don’t come off. Because these are 200,000 lb boosters, so they’re starting to fly around, and they’re flying around the vehicle with the crew in it. The launch of STS-1 was an adventure.

[Assistant] When you moved into the Integrated Entry Analysis Branch, that was before the launch?

[User] Well, I think so. I don’t know. I lose track of what the organizational—

[Assistant] It was all the same thing, basically?

[User] It was called, as I recall, the Engineering Analysis Division, which had aerodynamics, had trajectories, had the separation stuff, had the “dirty,” not discipline-specific kind of stuff. But then that—the Shuttle, the separation system experience—laid the foundation for what was to come next at Shuttle. We get through STS-1, breathe a huge sigh of relief, and then, of course, start to get the data now of what did actually happen on the flight to look and see how it compared to what we predicted. It looked good and the SRB separation system has worked on every flight since. [knocks on table] Thank God.

[Assistant] Where were you during the launch of STS-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, although many people did. In fact, the crew on the airplane had a ritual. You’re wearing a flight suit, of course, and they require, rightly, that everyone have a barf bag in their pocket. Then what they will do—one learns, after the fact—one of them will pretend to get sick into their [bag] and then reach in and pick out something. What they had in there was fruit cocktail. At that point, if you’re anywhere near gonna, you do. [laughs] They’d be, “Oh, Bob, look what I had today.” [laughter] Typical test jokers.

[Assistant] Pilot humor.

[User] Yes, pilot humor, which for those of us that didn’t tend to get sick was, I guess, at least okay, but for those that were right on the edge and then lost it, it was, oh, no. Then you’re a member of the club once you’ve done that, and they give you a certificate. One certificate if you didn’t get sick, and one if you did. So it’s fun, I guess.

[Assistant] One of those experiences you really didn’t expect to have when you first started.

[User] That’s exactly right. Yes. Who would have thought I would ever have a chance to go and walk around a launch vehicle or climb in the Orbiter cockpit as soon as it landed or fly weightless. I mean who would have thought?

[Assistant] What was the relationship like, especially when you were on that debris assessment team with the crews themselves and the astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, pilot humor, which for those of us that didn’t tend to get sick was, I guess, at least okay, but for those that were right on the edge and then lost it, it was, oh, no. Then you’re a member of the club once you’ve done that, and they give you a certificate. One certificate if you didn’t get sick, and one if you did. So it’s fun, I guess.

[Assistant] One of those experiences you really didn’t expect to have when you first started.

[User] That’s exactly right. Yes. Who would have thought I would ever have a chance to go and walk around a launch vehicle or climb in the Orbiter cockpit as soon as it landed or fly weightless. I mean who would have thought?

[Assistant] What was the relationship like, especially when you were on that debris assessment team with the crews themselves and the astronauts?

[User] Really didn’t have much of one. They were, of course, very interested in what we were finding. But we would often go out at about the same time the flight crew was going out and we would see each other out there, but we had certainly no real interaction on the pad because they were very focused and had their team getting them installed, and we were off in other parts of the pad doing other things. The main interaction was the regular programmatic interaction between a team doing something and the crew in the flight office wanting to know what we were finding and what the program’s going to do about it. It was more that kind of an interaction.

[Assistant] When you were inspecting the vehicle after landing, was that when the crew was still on before they came off or after they had already left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s exactly right. Yes. Who would have thought I would ever have a chance to go and walk around a launch vehicle or climb in the Orbiter cockpit as soon as it landed or fly weightless. I mean who would have thought?

[Assistant] What was the relationship like, especially when you were on that debris assessment team with the crews themselves and the astronauts?

[User] Really didn’t have much of one. They were, of course, very interested in what we were finding. But we would often go out at about the same time the flight crew was going out and we would see each other out there, but we had certainly no real interaction on the pad because they were very focused and had their team getting them installed, and we were off in other parts of the pad doing other things. The main interaction was the regular programmatic interaction between a team doing something and the crew in the flight office wanting to know what we were finding and what the program’s going to do about it. It was more that kind of an interaction.

[Assistant] When you were inspecting the vehicle after landing, was that when the crew was still on before they came off or after they had already left?

[User] No. They had been removed from the vehicle, and the vehicle had been declared safe, because there are all kinds of dangerous propellants and things that could leak out. So the first, literally the first, people that go out there are in SCAPE [Self Contained Atmospheric Protective Ensemble] suits and they’re really protected. Once they’ve done all their sniffing and everything looks okay, then it was cleared for us to go out, because the last thing you want to do is have somebody maimed that’s on the debris team. Again, like falling off the edge of the Mobile Launch Platform. Oops, there’s one of our debris guys passed out under the fume of noxious odors out there.

[Assistant] Not a good picture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really didn’t have much of one. They were, of course, very interested in what we were finding. But we would often go out at about the same time the flight crew was going out and we would see each other out there, but we had certainly no real interaction on the pad because they were very focused and had their team getting them installed, and we were off in other parts of the pad doing other things. The main interaction was the regular programmatic interaction between a team doing something and the crew in the flight office wanting to know what we were finding and what the program’s going to do about it. It was more that kind of an interaction.

[Assistant] When you were inspecting the vehicle after landing, was that when the crew was still on before they came off or after they had already left?

[User] No. They had been removed from the vehicle, and the vehicle had been declared safe, because there are all kinds of dangerous propellants and things that could leak out. So the first, literally the first, people that go out there are in SCAPE [Self Contained Atmospheric Protective Ensemble] suits and they’re really protected. Once they’ve done all their sniffing and everything looks okay, then it was cleared for us to go out, because the last thing you want to do is have somebody maimed that’s on the debris team. Again, like falling off the edge of the Mobile Launch Platform. Oops, there’s one of our debris guys passed out under the fume of noxious odors out there.

[Assistant] Not a good picture.

[User] Not a good picture. And not something we wanted for ourselves, either.

[Assistant] Any other memories during that time period you’d like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They had been removed from the vehicle, and the vehicle had been declared safe, because there are all kinds of dangerous propellants and things that could leak out. So the first, literally the first, people that go out there are in SCAPE [Self Contained Atmospheric Protective Ensemble] suits and they’re really protected. Once they’ve done all their sniffing and everything looks okay, then it was cleared for us to go out, because the last thing you want to do is have somebody maimed that’s on the debris team. Again, like falling off the edge of the Mobile Launch Platform. Oops, there’s one of our debris guys passed out under the fume of noxious odors out there.

[Assistant] Not a good picture.

[User] Not a good picture. And not something we wanted for ourselves, either.

[Assistant] Any other memories during that time period you’d like to share?

[User] No. That’s probably a pretty good summary.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, do you want to move on now to that first experience with Headquarters and how that came about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a good picture. And not something we wanted for ourselves, either.

[Assistant] Any other memories during that time period you’d like to share?

[User] No. That’s probably a pretty good summary.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, do you want to move on now to that first experience with Headquarters and how that came about?

[User] That would be great. May I take one break?

[Assistant]
Sure. It’s a good time.\n\n [pause]

When we stopped, we were getting ready to talk about your first experience with Headquarters, and if you want to go ahead and talk about that and how that came about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s a whole another chapter.

[Assistant] So if you want to stop.

[User] The clouds part.

[Assistant] Right. [laughs]

[User] The positive experiences begin to happen.

[Assistant] Right. So we can go ahead and stop for today if that’s okay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How do your assignments work?

[User] Until just recently there were three NASA suit technicians, and we had three or four contractor suit technicians. Every third flight a NASA suit technician was considered the lead. Then we had a Lockheed tech, and they rotated, too, so we would have a different one each time. We would be a team from this side of the group. Then Boeing would assign, depending on the size of the crew, anywhere from four to five technicians to work with that crew. Those technicians would try to work with the same crewman each time. Of course, sometimes that worked out and sometimes it didn't, so they'd see familiar faces at all the training exercises and know who to go to with questions. That's basically how it's always worked in the past.\n\n We're in the middle of a transition right now. They're turning all the suit tech jobs over to USA (United Space Alliance), because the Shuttle Program is going to be run by the contractors. Two of our NASA suit techs retired in December, so now we're bringing the Lockheed people up to be lead suit techs in charge of the overall mission.

[Assistant] Al Rochford and Troy Stewart retired?

[User] Rochford and Stewart, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been with NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Until just recently there were three NASA suit technicians, and we had three or four contractor suit technicians. Every third flight a NASA suit technician was considered the lead. Then we had a Lockheed tech, and they rotated, too, so we would have a different one each time. We would be a team from this side of the group. Then Boeing would assign, depending on the size of the crew, anywhere from four to five technicians to work with that crew. Those technicians would try to work with the same crewman each time. Of course, sometimes that worked out and sometimes it didn't, so they'd see familiar faces at all the training exercises and know who to go to with questions. That's basically how it's always worked in the past.\n\n We're in the middle of a transition right now. They're turning all the suit tech jobs over to USA (United Space Alliance), because the Shuttle Program is going to be run by the contractors. Two of our NASA suit techs retired in December, so now we're bringing the Lockheed people up to be lead suit techs in charge of the overall mission.

[Assistant] Al Rochford and Troy Stewart retired?

[User] Rochford and Stewart, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been with NASA?

[User] I've been with NASA since 1965. I've been in this area working with crew escape since 1980.

[Assistant] The first four missions, where the crews actually wore pressure suits, did you participate in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rochford and Stewart, yes.

[Assistant] How long have you been with NASA?

[User] I've been with NASA since 1965. I've been in this area working with crew escape since 1980.

[Assistant] The first four missions, where the crews actually wore pressure suits, did you participate in that?

[User] Yes, I was lucky; I came on just at the right time. I got to support the STS-1 landing at Edwards Air Force Base with Al Rochford. That's been the most exciting thing that I have done. I love what I do, doing the strap-ins and stuff, but the STS-1 landing was the most exciting thing that I've ever been in. Al Rochford was the lead for the land portion of that. Joe Schmitt was the lead for the strap-in portion. He strapped in Bob Crippen and John Young. Al and I were out at Edwards to recover them when they landed.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you participated in the landing. What goes on there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've been with NASA since 1965. I've been in this area working with crew escape since 1980.

[Assistant] The first four missions, where the crews actually wore pressure suits, did you participate in that?

[User] Yes, I was lucky; I came on just at the right time. I got to support the STS-1 landing at Edwards Air Force Base with Al Rochford. That's been the most exciting thing that I have done. I love what I do, doing the strap-ins and stuff, but the STS-1 landing was the most exciting thing that I've ever been in. Al Rochford was the lead for the land portion of that. Joe Schmitt was the lead for the strap-in portion. He strapped in Bob Crippen and John Young. Al and I were out at Edwards to recover them when they landed.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you participated in the landing. What goes on there?

[User] Right now, the way we have it set up, there's a crew transfer vehicle called the CTV, that actually pulls up to the orbiter and makes a little walkway over to the orbiter hatch area. We open the hatch, the crew comes out, they walk across this walkway and they're right inside this big room. It's a mobile platform. It's like a big trailer house on high that can be jacked up.\n\n They come inside the CTV and then they take the suits off and get their land legs back and the doctors check them out. If there's any medical experiments that have to be done after landing, there's gurneys. They do blood draws, whatever they require for that specific mission.

[Assistant] Once the mission's completed, what do you do with the suits? Do you break them down, analyze them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were kind of worried, whether he was going to be able to do everything that he needed to be able to do. Right after the first few events, it was very obvious that he was going to be able to do anything that he needed to do. He's really good about asking questions and understanding everything. Some people look it over while you're trying to explain it. It's like, "Yes, yes, yes, okay, I got that." Then they go out to do it and they really can't do it, because they really didn't get all the instruction. He's real good about listening and has a lot of patience. He does really well in training, therefore, because of that.

[Assistant] Does he ever bring up any stories of his previous flight or anything?

[User] He does talk about it. He's willing to sit down if you ask him any questions.

[Assistant] That's terrific then, you have a chance to work with him.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In your official capacity, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He does talk about it. He's willing to sit down if you ask him any questions.

[Assistant] That's terrific then, you have a chance to work with him.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In your official capacity, right?

[User] Yes. It's been really interesting. I got to do quite a few of the Mir flights, too. I was either there for the launch or for the landings. That was real interesting. I got to the flight that launched Shannon Lucid, and then I was there when she came home, too. So things like that are real special, I think. I like doing that.

[Assistant] So have any of you had a chance to work with some of the cosmonauts?