[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, definitely they expect when they think about Americans, they expect someone who has blue eyes, blond hair. But they didn't treat me differently. They were excited that I was from Puerto Rico because it was Latin America, and Puerto Rico was known for the music, right? We have a lot of artists, so they knew what Puerto Rico was and they thought I knew all the artists. So it was fun. Then they always tell me, oh, you have such a beautiful accent. Like, how is your country? How does your island look and how is the culture there? So I think they were excited to get to know me. So that was fun. Um, but yeah, I don't think I got really like, oh Nina, she's not a gringa or an American. I think they were kind of excited to get to know me. So that was fun. They always make fun of my accent.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Yeah, for sure. Um, so but they didn't treat me with the magic that they treat the blue-eyed people, right? Like, they're like, excited about my own culture. But I think in that they forgot that I was coming from the Peace Corps, which is a U.S. program, you know? Yeah. They were like, oh, you're just one person that's here to work, you know? Yeah, I don't think they treated me as the Peace Corps volunteer. They treat me as someone who is just there to work with them.

[Assistant] And so after your six months with the host family, you finally got your own house.

[User] Which was in the backyard. It was basically in the backyard.

[Assistant] Oh, it's the same family but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, for sure. Um, so but they didn't treat me with the magic that they treat the blue-eyed people, right? Like, they're like, excited about my own culture. But I think in that they forgot that I was coming from the Peace Corps, which is a U.S. program, you know? Yeah. They were like, oh, you're just one person that's here to work, you know? Yeah, I don't think they treated me as the Peace Corps volunteer. They treat me as someone who is just there to work with them.

[Assistant] And so after your six months with the host family, you finally got your own house.

[User] Which was in the backyard. It was basically in the backyard.

[Assistant] Oh, it's the same family but.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You moved from the main house to the back house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You moved from the main house to the back house.

[User] Exactly. Um, it wasn't a cute apartment, but I was just like any need my own because, you know, when you live with a host family, you need to socialize with them every day.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that's exhausting, come on. Your personal time, you just don't want to talk. So I just moved there and I didn't stay there my entire service, because then I met this lady who had this amazing house and lived by herself. And then I moved with her, which was a mistake. But I learned. Because she was a little crazy. But I was like, I'm not going to move again. She was just, she was a control freak for sure.

[Assistant] She was a local person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. From these amazing family who are Puerto Rican. So they were like, we got you. The Grillo- Marxuach family. They're amazing. And they offered to cover the other 50 percent plus more, stipend for me to live here. So I have zero loans thanks to them.

[Assistant] Oh wow.

[User] I am living, I'm spoiled, I'm living my life. But I'm saying it's because I'm very I'm such a spiritual person. I do, and I think God has control of everything, and I always try to put it out there to the universe. Words of affirmation. And I try to stay really positive. And just, I mean, after I got, I applied, got the 50 percent and then the full tuition, I was like, I mean, I have to come here, I have to. And I remember getting that email. I literally started crying because I'm like, you know, loans. You can be a slave for your student loans forever.

[Assistant] Yeah, sure.

[User] And I was blessed enough in undergraduate that I didn't have to take any loans. I could pay for my bachelor's degree. So I was like, oh, I don't want to take a huge loan because this program, it's like forty thousand dollars or more, I don't know. So full scholarship, I mean, it could get. And I think it's because of, you know, peace studies and Peace Corps. I think everything just aligned, because we were talking like, would I be here if it wasn't for Peace Corps? I don't know. I don't think so. Because I was just going to keep. I studied psychology, so I was just going to become a psychologist, right?

[Assistant] You might be working at a clinic in San Juan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am living, I'm spoiled, I'm living my life. But I'm saying it's because I'm very I'm such a spiritual person. I do, and I think God has control of everything, and I always try to put it out there to the universe. Words of affirmation. And I try to stay really positive. And just, I mean, after I got, I applied, got the 50 percent and then the full tuition, I was like, I mean, I have to come here, I have to. And I remember getting that email. I literally started crying because I'm like, you know, loans. You can be a slave for your student loans forever.

[Assistant] Yeah, sure.

[User] And I was blessed enough in undergraduate that I didn't have to take any loans. I could pay for my bachelor's degree. So I was like, oh, I don't want to take a huge loan because this program, it's like forty thousand dollars or more, I don't know. So full scholarship, I mean, it could get. And I think it's because of, you know, peace studies and Peace Corps. I think everything just aligned, because we were talking like, would I be here if it wasn't for Peace Corps? I don't know. I don't think so. Because I was just going to keep. I studied psychology, so I was just going to become a psychologist, right?

[Assistant] You might be working at a clinic in San Juan.

[User] Yeah, probably. And have tons of student loans. But I've never been here in San Diego before, and I'd say, well, I already did Costa Rica. I think I can survive anything. So, yeah, I mean, now I'm here.

[Assistant] And they have hot water here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was blessed enough in undergraduate that I didn't have to take any loans. I could pay for my bachelor's degree. So I was like, oh, I don't want to take a huge loan because this program, it's like forty thousand dollars or more, I don't know. So full scholarship, I mean, it could get. And I think it's because of, you know, peace studies and Peace Corps. I think everything just aligned, because we were talking like, would I be here if it wasn't for Peace Corps? I don't know. I don't think so. Because I was just going to keep. I studied psychology, so I was just going to become a psychologist, right?

[Assistant] You might be working at a clinic in San Juan.

[User] Yeah, probably. And have tons of student loans. But I've never been here in San Diego before, and I'd say, well, I already did Costa Rica. I think I can survive anything. So, yeah, I mean, now I'm here.

[Assistant] And they have hot water here.

[User] They do, and I live in graduate housing. I live by myself in San Diego. Oh, I mean, it doesn't, it can't get any better than that. And I thank Peace Corps every time someone asked me, oh, what got you here? What's a big experience that changed your life or that reflective stuff? Immediately, I think about Peace Corps. I am the person that I am today because of Peace Corps. Best experience of my life so far. I think it just awakened something that I could have never figured out by myself. Yeah, there's something about getting out of your comfort zone that if you allow it, it will transform you forever, for sure.

[Assistant] I think so. Getting back to your time in Costa Rica. Are there any really memorable experiences that you could think of? Like when you're sitting around with your friends and telling your stories, what's your favorite story to tell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, probably. And have tons of student loans. But I've never been here in San Diego before, and I'd say, well, I already did Costa Rica. I think I can survive anything. So, yeah, I mean, now I'm here.

[Assistant] And they have hot water here.

[User] They do, and I live in graduate housing. I live by myself in San Diego. Oh, I mean, it doesn't, it can't get any better than that. And I thank Peace Corps every time someone asked me, oh, what got you here? What's a big experience that changed your life or that reflective stuff? Immediately, I think about Peace Corps. I am the person that I am today because of Peace Corps. Best experience of my life so far. I think it just awakened something that I could have never figured out by myself. Yeah, there's something about getting out of your comfort zone that if you allow it, it will transform you forever, for sure.

[Assistant] I think so. Getting back to your time in Costa Rica. Are there any really memorable experiences that you could think of? Like when you're sitting around with your friends and telling your stories, what's your favorite story to tell?

[User] My favorite stories are meeting my friend Flordelis, who was my project partner. She basically adopted me. I would eat lunch every day at her house. I don't know, there was something special about people feeding you. And it felt so genuine like she I didn't have to pay, you know? It just felt like she just literally wanted to do that for me. And I said, wow, there's good people out there. Because they just opened the doors of her house. I could be a, you know, she just trusted me. So that was pretty amazing for sure.

[Assistant] Did she have a family there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They do, and I live in graduate housing. I live by myself in San Diego. Oh, I mean, it doesn't, it can't get any better than that. And I thank Peace Corps every time someone asked me, oh, what got you here? What's a big experience that changed your life or that reflective stuff? Immediately, I think about Peace Corps. I am the person that I am today because of Peace Corps. Best experience of my life so far. I think it just awakened something that I could have never figured out by myself. Yeah, there's something about getting out of your comfort zone that if you allow it, it will transform you forever, for sure.

[Assistant] I think so. Getting back to your time in Costa Rica. Are there any really memorable experiences that you could think of? Like when you're sitting around with your friends and telling your stories, what's your favorite story to tell?

[User] My favorite stories are meeting my friend Flordelis, who was my project partner. She basically adopted me. I would eat lunch every day at her house. I don't know, there was something special about people feeding you. And it felt so genuine like she I didn't have to pay, you know? It just felt like she just literally wanted to do that for me. And I said, wow, there's good people out there. Because they just opened the doors of her house. I could be a, you know, she just trusted me. So that was pretty amazing for sure.

[Assistant] Did she have a family there?

[User] She did. She was a mom of three daughters. And, you know, she had her husband and it was a busy house and they just welcomed me with their own. I would just go to church every Sunday and after that go to her mom's house and she would cook for me the things that I liked. So I think I was like, I don't even know if my family treats me like that. It was like the next level.

[Assistant] You really were spoiled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My favorite stories are meeting my friend Flordelis, who was my project partner. She basically adopted me. I would eat lunch every day at her house. I don't know, there was something special about people feeding you. And it felt so genuine like she I didn't have to pay, you know? It just felt like she just literally wanted to do that for me. And I said, wow, there's good people out there. Because they just opened the doors of her house. I could be a, you know, she just trusted me. So that was pretty amazing for sure.

[Assistant] Did she have a family there?

[User] She did. She was a mom of three daughters. And, you know, she had her husband and it was a busy house and they just welcomed me with their own. I would just go to church every Sunday and after that go to her mom's house and she would cook for me the things that I liked. So I think I was like, I don't even know if my family treats me like that. It was like the next level.

[Assistant] You really were spoiled.

[User] Oh yeah, I was spoiled. I was the spoiled one of my group. And so that was definitely special. And I think my cohort, they're my friends, all of them. I mean, we already we already have 2021 reunion coming up, like we already we just we literally love each other like brothers and sisters, and we fight like brothers and sisters. It's just, I mean, we were the same age, our cohort was really like in the same age range. So I think that allows us to be even closer. And we will plan trips in Costa Rica and we would, like, do a lot of stuff together.

[Assistant] So when you got some time off you guys would go off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She did. She was a mom of three daughters. And, you know, she had her husband and it was a busy house and they just welcomed me with their own. I would just go to church every Sunday and after that go to her mom's house and she would cook for me the things that I liked. So I think I was like, I don't even know if my family treats me like that. It was like the next level.

[Assistant] You really were spoiled.

[User] Oh yeah, I was spoiled. I was the spoiled one of my group. And so that was definitely special. And I think my cohort, they're my friends, all of them. I mean, we already we already have 2021 reunion coming up, like we already we just we literally love each other like brothers and sisters, and we fight like brothers and sisters. It's just, I mean, we were the same age, our cohort was really like in the same age range. So I think that allows us to be even closer. And we will plan trips in Costa Rica and we would, like, do a lot of stuff together.

[Assistant] So when you got some time off you guys would go off?

[User] Yes, yes. We'd just stay in a hostel for like seven dollars a night or ten and just spend time with each other. I think we met, and we made an effort to meet, at least like once a month or every now and then to do things. So that was pretty special. Like I knew, we can always make it. So that was definitely my cohort. We have a Facebook group, we have a WhatsApp group, we still communicate for sure. That was pretty special.

[Assistant] How about the other volunteers in your group? Did you make any lasting friendships and are you still in touch with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I was spoiled. I was the spoiled one of my group. And so that was definitely special. And I think my cohort, they're my friends, all of them. I mean, we already we already have 2021 reunion coming up, like we already we just we literally love each other like brothers and sisters, and we fight like brothers and sisters. It's just, I mean, we were the same age, our cohort was really like in the same age range. So I think that allows us to be even closer. And we will plan trips in Costa Rica and we would, like, do a lot of stuff together.

[Assistant] So when you got some time off you guys would go off?

[User] Yes, yes. We'd just stay in a hostel for like seven dollars a night or ten and just spend time with each other. I think we met, and we made an effort to meet, at least like once a month or every now and then to do things. So that was pretty special. Like I knew, we can always make it. So that was definitely my cohort. We have a Facebook group, we have a WhatsApp group, we still communicate for sure. That was pretty special.

[Assistant] How about the other volunteers in your group? Did you make any lasting friendships and are you still in touch with them?

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, my best friend Taina Lenny's from Peace Corps. I just spent the summer with one of my friends who I went there with. Stayed in her house for the entire summer for free.

[Assistant] Ah, where is she from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. We'd just stay in a hostel for like seven dollars a night or ten and just spend time with each other. I think we met, and we made an effort to meet, at least like once a month or every now and then to do things. So that was pretty special. Like I knew, we can always make it. So that was definitely my cohort. We have a Facebook group, we have a WhatsApp group, we still communicate for sure. That was pretty special.

[Assistant] How about the other volunteers in your group? Did you make any lasting friendships and are you still in touch with them?

[User] Oh yeah. Yeah, my best friend Taina Lenny's from Peace Corps. I just spent the summer with one of my friends who I went there with. Stayed in her house for the entire summer for free.

[Assistant] Ah, where is she from?

[User] She's from Fresno, so I was doing a summer internship there, which I applied to, and then I realized that she lived there and I was like, oh, by the way, can I live with you? And she was like, yeah. So everything worked out for me. Um, and yeah, and even my best friends are from there and we talk almost every day, we message at least because, you know, now technology is so easy to keep in touch.

[Assistant] It's easier to communicate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She's from Fresno, so I was doing a summer internship there, which I applied to, and then I realized that she lived there and I was like, oh, by the way, can I live with you? And she was like, yeah. So everything worked out for me. Um, and yeah, and even my best friends are from there and we talk almost every day, we message at least because, you know, now technology is so easy to keep in touch.

[Assistant] It's easier to communicate.

[User] Yeah, because I don't even imagine like back then, like, how do you keep a letter, right? What if it gets lost in the mail? What if you lose that person's address? What are you going to do? So I think for now, for us, it's a lot easier for our generation just to stay in contact constantly.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that's a good thing about technology that allows you to, and I have so many friends from Peace Corps, from Costa Rica in Facebook, right? They see me. They comment on my things, oh I hope everything is well. Now I have to post everything in Spanish and English because I have friends from there and friends from here. So it's an interesting dynamic. Um, relationships are super important in Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Well, you have something in common. Did you notice that when you came back, since you'd had this common experience with other Peace Corps volunteers, that you were closer to them than maybe your old friends from back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, because I don't even imagine like back then, like, how do you keep a letter, right? What if it gets lost in the mail? What if you lose that person's address? What are you going to do? So I think for now, for us, it's a lot easier for our generation just to stay in contact constantly.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that's a good thing about technology that allows you to, and I have so many friends from Peace Corps, from Costa Rica in Facebook, right? They see me. They comment on my things, oh I hope everything is well. Now I have to post everything in Spanish and English because I have friends from there and friends from here. So it's an interesting dynamic. Um, relationships are super important in Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Well, you have something in common. Did you notice that when you came back, since you'd had this common experience with other Peace Corps volunteers, that you were closer to them than maybe your old friends from back home?

[User] Um, what was the question again? Sorry.

[Assistant] Well, this common experience pf Peace Corps, did that give you a closer tie with these people than others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, what was the question again? Sorry.

[Assistant] Well, this common experience pf Peace Corps, did that give you a closer tie with these people than others?

[User] I think so, because we were just in training for three months, so we didn't see after that we didn't see each other every day. But I think going to training, there's something so special about sharing spaces with people. Like in school, for example, your friends are usually from school, from work. When you spend intentional time with each other, like share space, that creates a bond. If you allow it, of course. And I think for us, we were so stressed. So for us, it was just to joke with each other and to, you know, bully each other. And I think that, us being in the same situation, that just created a whole other level. And we share so many memories, and I think we were all in that coming out of age, you know, phase where we were like trying to see who we were.

[Assistant] Early 20s.

[User] Like, at least for us, you were like, OK, who are we again? Like, what do we want to do in life? I think for all of us, we were just looking for direction. And I think that created a special bond for us. Because my friends back home, they didn't understand. They wanted to stay in their comfort zone. And I think for us, I think my group, we were just like trying to figure life out. I think we wanted to do good service, right? But we also wanted to figure out us. So I think that was special. Yeah. And we still talk to each other. It's amazing. When we all live in different places like New York, Philly, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] Well, you've only been back for a couple of years, but you'll probably have reunions in the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, because we were just in training for three months, so we didn't see after that we didn't see each other every day. But I think going to training, there's something so special about sharing spaces with people. Like in school, for example, your friends are usually from school, from work. When you spend intentional time with each other, like share space, that creates a bond. If you allow it, of course. And I think for us, we were so stressed. So for us, it was just to joke with each other and to, you know, bully each other. And I think that, us being in the same situation, that just created a whole other level. And we share so many memories, and I think we were all in that coming out of age, you know, phase where we were like trying to see who we were.

[Assistant] Early 20s.

[User] Like, at least for us, you were like, OK, who are we again? Like, what do we want to do in life? I think for all of us, we were just looking for direction. And I think that created a special bond for us. Because my friends back home, they didn't understand. They wanted to stay in their comfort zone. And I think for us, I think my group, we were just like trying to figure life out. I think we wanted to do good service, right? But we also wanted to figure out us. So I think that was special. Yeah. And we still talk to each other. It's amazing. When we all live in different places like New York, Philly, Pennsylvania.

[Assistant] Well, you've only been back for a couple of years, but you'll probably have reunions in the future.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Tell me what did you like most about Costa Rica and what did you like the least?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Think I'm special?

[Assistant] Or maybe look to you for some advice? Do you encourage people?

[User] Yes, 100 percent. Mainly a lot of undergrads here are interested. There's also in my cohort, they are like three other girls who went to Peace Corps. But a lot of people ask me about my experience and I'm like, best experience of my life. You should do it. It will change your life if you have the right attitude.

[Assistant] No hesitation.

[User] Yeah, I'm like, best. Honestly, of course, it wasn't like I had negative experiences there, but I think above all, I always recommend people and I'm like, feel free to contact me if you need more advice. I think and I always tell lots of my friends. Actually, one of my friends went in Peace Corps because I told her. I was like, you should do it. And she's there right now in Costa Rica.

[Assistant] Oh is she?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, 100 percent. Mainly a lot of undergrads here are interested. There's also in my cohort, they are like three other girls who went to Peace Corps. But a lot of people ask me about my experience and I'm like, best experience of my life. You should do it. It will change your life if you have the right attitude.

[Assistant] No hesitation.

[User] Yeah, I'm like, best. Honestly, of course, it wasn't like I had negative experiences there, but I think above all, I always recommend people and I'm like, feel free to contact me if you need more advice. I think and I always tell lots of my friends. Actually, one of my friends went in Peace Corps because I told her. I was like, you should do it. And she's there right now in Costa Rica.

[Assistant] Oh is she?

[User] She went. We got to meet each other before I left. Because when I left, she just arrived and because I was like, you should do it. And she's there. She's also having fun. So I always, they should pay me for this, I always tell people, you should do Peace Corps. It changed my life forever. Definitely no hesitation. I always tell people to do it. But also tell them, by the way, you need to have the emotional intelligence to do Peace Corps because it's not easy to be out of your comfort zone.

[Assistant] Right. Well, you have your ups and downs. And like you mentioned earlier, you have needs to. I mean, you want people to care about you, it's not just how are you here to help us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I'm like, best. Honestly, of course, it wasn't like I had negative experiences there, but I think above all, I always recommend people and I'm like, feel free to contact me if you need more advice. I think and I always tell lots of my friends. Actually, one of my friends went in Peace Corps because I told her. I was like, you should do it. And she's there right now in Costa Rica.

[Assistant] Oh is she?

[User] She went. We got to meet each other before I left. Because when I left, she just arrived and because I was like, you should do it. And she's there. She's also having fun. So I always, they should pay me for this, I always tell people, you should do Peace Corps. It changed my life forever. Definitely no hesitation. I always tell people to do it. But also tell them, by the way, you need to have the emotional intelligence to do Peace Corps because it's not easy to be out of your comfort zone.

[Assistant] Right. Well, you have your ups and downs. And like you mentioned earlier, you have needs to. I mean, you want people to care about you, it's not just how are you here to help us?

[User] Yeah, so how do you balance that? Because in the end, it's mostly about them, you know, like it sucks to your ego, you know, but you are serving the country, their country. You want to learn their culture. So, yeah, it's a good way.

[Assistant] Also you're representing America, and you want to leave them with a.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She went. We got to meet each other before I left. Because when I left, she just arrived and because I was like, you should do it. And she's there. She's also having fun. So I always, they should pay me for this, I always tell people, you should do Peace Corps. It changed my life forever. Definitely no hesitation. I always tell people to do it. But also tell them, by the way, you need to have the emotional intelligence to do Peace Corps because it's not easy to be out of your comfort zone.

[Assistant] Right. Well, you have your ups and downs. And like you mentioned earlier, you have needs to. I mean, you want people to care about you, it's not just how are you here to help us?

[User] Yeah, so how do you balance that? Because in the end, it's mostly about them, you know, like it sucks to your ego, you know, but you are serving the country, their country. You want to learn their culture. So, yeah, it's a good way.

[Assistant] Also you're representing America, and you want to leave them with a.

[User] A good impression.

[Assistant] A good impression.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so how do you balance that? Because in the end, it's mostly about them, you know, like it sucks to your ego, you know, but you are serving the country, their country. You want to learn their culture. So, yeah, it's a good way.

[Assistant] Also you're representing America, and you want to leave them with a.

[User] A good impression.

[Assistant] A good impression.

[User] Which for me, it's just weird representing America because I am from Puerto Rico. So I think like my particular experience, which is representing humanity. Like, I don't know.

[Assistant] Well, yeah, but you kind of reinforce that diversity in America.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A good impression.

[Assistant] A good impression.

[User] Which for me, it's just weird representing America because I am from Puerto Rico. So I think like my particular experience, which is representing humanity. Like, I don't know.

[Assistant] Well, yeah, but you kind of reinforce that diversity in America.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] Everybody's not blond haired and blue eyed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which for me, it's just weird representing America because I am from Puerto Rico. So I think like my particular experience, which is representing humanity. Like, I don't know.

[Assistant] Well, yeah, but you kind of reinforce that diversity in America.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] Everybody's not blond haired and blue eyed.

[User] Yeah, right. Hopefully, they've got that. But yeah, it was. It was good.

[Assistant] Any other experiences or any thoughts to wrap up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] Everybody's not blond haired and blue eyed.

[User] Yeah, right. Hopefully, they've got that. But yeah, it was. It was good.

[Assistant] Any other experiences or any thoughts to wrap up?

[User] Any thoughts? Um, would I do it again? I always ask myself that and I think if I would do it again, it would have to be with my partner if I get married, because I'm not going to go through that by myself again. So when I get married, I will definitely consider it when I'm like, why not? Maybe go to Costa Rica, I don't know where, but not right now. I mean, like, if I would do it, it would be like a long term because two years is a long time. But maybe, I would say I would say maybe. Maybe I would do it again, and I'm just so grateful that I went. It's just everything worked out, school, my career. It took a huge, I mean, and there's other volunteers here and we're like, that's part of my identity, to be a Peace Corps volunteer. Like when I express myself in some way, the conversation, Peace Corps is there, for sure. It's like such a, cause I was like, before that, people, I was like, why do people carry this identity with them so strongly? But I feel that I'm a RPCV, that's something that I tell people. Like, I went to Peace Corps, and that means so much to my life, to my daily life I think. The way I speak, the way I think. I don't know. It's more than doing the job and bye. I don't know about you, but I'm like, I take it everywhere, wherever I go, which is nerdy. I don't know. And every time I meet someone, oh, you were a Peace Corps volunteer? Me too! You know, it's like a bond.

[Assistant] Well, you're part of a club.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right. Hopefully, they've got that. But yeah, it was. It was good.

[Assistant] Any other experiences or any thoughts to wrap up?

[User] Any thoughts? Um, would I do it again? I always ask myself that and I think if I would do it again, it would have to be with my partner if I get married, because I'm not going to go through that by myself again. So when I get married, I will definitely consider it when I'm like, why not? Maybe go to Costa Rica, I don't know where, but not right now. I mean, like, if I would do it, it would be like a long term because two years is a long time. But maybe, I would say I would say maybe. Maybe I would do it again, and I'm just so grateful that I went. It's just everything worked out, school, my career. It took a huge, I mean, and there's other volunteers here and we're like, that's part of my identity, to be a Peace Corps volunteer. Like when I express myself in some way, the conversation, Peace Corps is there, for sure. It's like such a, cause I was like, before that, people, I was like, why do people carry this identity with them so strongly? But I feel that I'm a RPCV, that's something that I tell people. Like, I went to Peace Corps, and that means so much to my life, to my daily life I think. The way I speak, the way I think. I don't know. It's more than doing the job and bye. I don't know about you, but I'm like, I take it everywhere, wherever I go, which is nerdy. I don't know. And every time I meet someone, oh, you were a Peace Corps volunteer? Me too! You know, it's like a bond.

[Assistant] Well, you're part of a club.

[User] Yeah. So those are maybe my final thoughts.

[Assistant] Great. Well, it's been a great interview, and I appreciate you taking the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me see what else you had here.

[Assistant] I think we've covered it pretty well. You've gone through most of what I had down. One question I do have offhand, going back a little bit, you mentioned how Max Faget had mentioned going to the moon and starting that program. What did you think when you heard Kennedy give the announcement?

[User] Well, at that point we were sort of committed. The debate we had wasn't whether we were going to make it or not; the debate was what does "this decade" mean. We argued for three or four weeks. So finally I said, "Well, why don't you go ask the President?"

[Assistant] Good way to find out.

[User] "Go ask the President what he meant." He said, "I meant in '69." But it was funny, though. That was the biggest debate we had: what's he mean, '70 or '69? Someone said, "Who cares? We have all these years yet to make it happen."

[Assistant] Did you ever think about how much had to be done in that amount of time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the NASA experience was probably the best overall as a learning experience.\n\n Do you want to go off for a minute and let's see if there's anything— [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n —send Apollo 8 to the moon.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I was flabbergasted. I mean, what a bold decision. Had I had the courage to make that decision? I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, that was a bold decision. I read George Low's stuff. He was really in doubt. And Gilruth. Gilruth probably had pits in his stomach. I mean, I'm sure that it was really Mueller's decision. But that was a very bold—in fact, Joe Shea and I talked about it when the thing was announced. We talked about it. He said, "You really believe that?" I said, "Gee, I don't know." That's why I know Joe would not—I don't think he'd have made that decision.\n\n What were you doing? The thoughts during the first landing. Well, I was at the Cape for the launch, and I was in Mission Control for the landing. I was in Mission Control for the recovery.

[Assistant] What was it like, the atmosphere?

[User] The launch thing, you know, the launch thing was interesting. They invited myself and my family.

[Assistant] Oh, that's nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let me see what else here. You said "During your career, what do you consider the biggest challenge?"

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I think the biggest challenge was keeping in perspective the entire program and not allowing any one of it to get out of phase and not allowing an area to go off, to say, "We're going to go off," to say, "Wait a minute. No, you don't understand. You've got to be integrated in here. Here's where we are in this thing."\n\n I think the weekly report that we did, keeping everyone totally informed, from Joe Shea and the program manager down, clearly kept everyone where we were headed for. That probably was—that probably was the biggest challenge. If you take a look, I was looking through something here the other day. I was looking at the total number of work we had to do one week. We had to do the command and service module, about five or six projects LM, five or six projects guidance system, ACE [automatic checkout equipment]. You know, you have all these things going across, and you had to be in touch across all of those in a uniform manner. Also then your funding needs things. There's budget battles and cost battles, and everyone wants to make changes, so you try to decide whether change is really required or not required. So, just keeping everything equal, to me, was really the biggest challenge. As I say, I would say I ended up probably being the business manager, is the best way, in a large office.

[Assistant] Very large.

[User] A very large office. And being the ears and eyes of politically what was going on at the center. I was fascinated by the cooperation with Chris Kraft and Max. I mean, we got in battles. We got in knock-down, drag-out battles, you know. It was fun. I mean, no one got excited. We went out and had a beer and had dinner together, you know, at each other's houses on weekends. But during that period, why, they really worked hard.

[Assistant] That's good that that relationship existed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the biggest challenge was keeping in perspective the entire program and not allowing any one of it to get out of phase and not allowing an area to go off, to say, "We're going to go off," to say, "Wait a minute. No, you don't understand. You've got to be integrated in here. Here's where we are in this thing."\n\n I think the weekly report that we did, keeping everyone totally informed, from Joe Shea and the program manager down, clearly kept everyone where we were headed for. That probably was—that probably was the biggest challenge. If you take a look, I was looking through something here the other day. I was looking at the total number of work we had to do one week. We had to do the command and service module, about five or six projects LM, five or six projects guidance system, ACE [automatic checkout equipment]. You know, you have all these things going across, and you had to be in touch across all of those in a uniform manner. Also then your funding needs things. There's budget battles and cost battles, and everyone wants to make changes, so you try to decide whether change is really required or not required. So, just keeping everything equal, to me, was really the biggest challenge. As I say, I would say I ended up probably being the business manager, is the best way, in a large office.

[Assistant] Very large.

[User] A very large office. And being the ears and eyes of politically what was going on at the center. I was fascinated by the cooperation with Chris Kraft and Max. I mean, we got in battles. We got in knock-down, drag-out battles, you know. It was fun. I mean, no one got excited. We went out and had a beer and had dinner together, you know, at each other's houses on weekends. But during that period, why, they really worked hard.

[Assistant] That's good that that relationship existed.

[User] We started in Space Task Group back at Langley.

[Assistant] You knew each other well enough.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Prerequisites are kind of a grey area. The one gentleman that I have with me, Josh [Joshua Graham], he spent four years in the military, basically worked out of the same military life support shop I did. So his background, he came to me with a lot of experience. So his training was more refinement than anything else. And he's a sharp troop as well, so that makes a big difference.\n\n A lot of the other people I'm working with are egress people, and although they don't know a lot about the pressure suit environment, they have a lot of training on aircraft and aircraft ejection systems, which are kind of a parallel career field, if you will. So even though they don't know the specifics, they know the generalities, so it's a very easy transition for them. Everybody in our group, like I said, everybody has a specialty, but everybody's specialty kind of wraps around the life support/egress environment. So somebody comes in who's never seen a pressure suit before is going to pick up on it very, very quickly because they're part of the environment, and that's what makes it really easy to train somebody.

[Assistant] You mentioned that he came from the same shop, the military area that you came from. Since you've worked on the military side and now in the NASA shop, how do those shops compare? Are they run similarly or are they different?

[User] Kind of a loaded question there. I really don't want to address that issue.

[Assistant] Okay, that's fine.

[User] I really don't think I could be fair trying to make a comparison.

[Assistant] That's perfectly fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kind of a loaded question there. I really don't want to address that issue.

[Assistant] Okay, that's fine.

[User] I really don't think I could be fair trying to make a comparison.

[Assistant] That's perfectly fine.

[User] Both of them are very, for what their mission is—I got some fantastic training in the military, as did Josh. But the environments are entirely different. The training and the quality of the work is the same, but just how you go about doing it is entirely different, and I think I couldn't do either one of them justice. Myself or them.

[Assistant] That's fine. Have you ever been in a suit yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd like to think so. Don't tell them I said that.

[Assistant] You mentioned traveling to Wallops Island, and from what I've read, you've pretty much traveled all over the world with your job.

[User] Seen a little bit of ground.

[Assistant] Let's talk about that, how that travel comes about, and why you travel, and what you do when you're on travel.

[User] Travel's a lot of work for the most part. Stateside traveling is a lot easier than traveling overseas, of course. It all depends on the mission. My first 10, 12 years in this program, we were heavily involved with ozone research, chasing ozone holes around the world. Arctic, Antarctica. We were everywhere from down in Puerto Montt, Chile, to Stavanger, Norway, in New Zealand, Australia, Fiji. Wherever they had the best locations for catching data was where we went. We ran all over the world chasing ozone holes.\n\n Got some great data. Of course, data takes so many years to be evaluated and put in perspective, but we would just come by and the scientists say, "Yeah, our system worked, got great data," and we'd just go on to the next location. You'd go in there, you'd put in some long hours, sometimes 60, 70 hour weeks because you're flying seven, eight hour missions. Then you might have three or four days in a row that the weather doesn’t cooperate, so you get your time off. But the traveling is nice, I got to see a lot of the world. Didn't get to do a lot of tourist stuff.

[Assistant] Do you still travel a lot, or is that something you don't do as much?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From my personal standpoint, it's more preparation on the front end. We actually have our logistics people that take care of the shipping. Not much to it, actually, from my standpoint. It's just making sure that what I need now doesn't get shipped ahead so I don't have it. That's about it.

[Assistant] Do they basically ship the shop to these locations, or do you just have a pared-down amount of equipment?

[User] I just have a pared-down amount of emergency stuff and bare necessities. We don't take a lot. That's on the preparation on the front side, is if we know we're going to be on the road for 30 days or 45 days or two months or whatever, we'll prep all the equipment—which are on inspection cycles—we'll prep everything before we go so nothing comes due schedule-wise while we're gone. So when you're in place, all you have to worry about is literally launch and recovery of the airplane and sustaining flight operations. You don't have to worry about anything else. It's just a matter of putting stuff in boxes and giving it to our supply people. They're waiting for us on the other end, so it's not a lot to that aspect.

[Assistant] How do you actually get there? Is it through NASA planes, or is it through commercial aircraft?

[User] Normally it's commercial. Occasionally, it's military transport. Very, very occasionally, depending on where we go, we have flown once or twice on NASA aircraft. But mainly it's just commercial. The last time, when we flew to Costa Rica, we did fly military transport along with the equipment we were taking. It all depends on the circumstances of where we're going. Everything's different.

[Assistant] You've been with NASA like you said for 20 years, both as a contractor and now a civil servant. Do you have any feelings of how the Agency itself has changed, and the aeronautics role has maybe changed during that time period that you've been here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Normally it's commercial. Occasionally, it's military transport. Very, very occasionally, depending on where we go, we have flown once or twice on NASA aircraft. But mainly it's just commercial. The last time, when we flew to Costa Rica, we did fly military transport along with the equipment we were taking. It all depends on the circumstances of where we're going. Everything's different.

[Assistant] You've been with NASA like you said for 20 years, both as a contractor and now a civil servant. Do you have any feelings of how the Agency itself has changed, and the aeronautics role has maybe changed during that time period that you've been here?

[User] I really don't have an answer to that question, unfortunately. Our group is just so small, and I don't see the big picture, unfortunately. I’m just now starting to see the big picture or get an idea of what the big picture is. But I really can't. I couldn't answer that question because I don't know. I'm just now starting to open my eyes to something other than my own little piece of the world, shall we say. I would really like to see aeronautics flourish because there's always stuff out there that needs to be explored, stuff that needs to be tested. In my opinion, there's a great need for aeronautics, and of course from the operational standpoint that we're on, there's a lot of research out there that still hasn't been gathered yet.

[Assistant] Speaking of that, during these missions with this ER-2, they do the photography, the different observations. I was looking at a list, the global radiation budget, climate change research, satellite sensor systems and development, disaster assessment. How do you feel that that affects the every day person, or how does NASA's research in this area effect or impact society as a whole?

[User] Wow. I have no idea how to answer that question.

[Assistant] Okay, that's fine too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really don't have an answer to that question, unfortunately. Our group is just so small, and I don't see the big picture, unfortunately. I’m just now starting to see the big picture or get an idea of what the big picture is. But I really can't. I couldn't answer that question because I don't know. I'm just now starting to open my eyes to something other than my own little piece of the world, shall we say. I would really like to see aeronautics flourish because there's always stuff out there that needs to be explored, stuff that needs to be tested. In my opinion, there's a great need for aeronautics, and of course from the operational standpoint that we're on, there's a lot of research out there that still hasn't been gathered yet.

[Assistant] Speaking of that, during these missions with this ER-2, they do the photography, the different observations. I was looking at a list, the global radiation budget, climate change research, satellite sensor systems and development, disaster assessment. How do you feel that that affects the every day person, or how does NASA's research in this area effect or impact society as a whole?

[User] Wow. I have no idea how to answer that question.

[Assistant] Okay, that's fine too.

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] Well, the benefits of the research. You mentioned that there's a lot still to be done.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wow. I have no idea how to answer that question.

[Assistant] Okay, that's fine too.

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] Well, the benefits of the research. You mentioned that there's a lot still to be done.

[User] Well, yes. There's always new sensors out there that are being made to test new parameters and look for new things that are constantly going on, things that we've never tested for before. There are always people with new ideas. There's just stuff that hasn't been made yet. We just don't know what it is yet. The only way I could probably answer your question is NASA has a little handout that I take to schools, and it's just a little cardboard placard on it, and it's just one of those things that'll show a house or a small city or whatnot as you look at it, and as you tilt it, the view you're looking at, it'll change. It shows you the improvements just to everyday life that NASA or the Space Program has had an impact on, whether it be just making airplanes quieter, or the bed you sleep on, type of thing. I passed it out to kids and said, "These are just some of the advances, the technology that has been transferred over to the private sector that has been developed for the Space Program or something that has been captured by NASA or some government agency or whatever that has improved personal life."\n\n We take them for granted. I take them for granted. I look at that and say, "Hey, this is neat stuff." There's some stuff in there I didn't even know. I was like a little kid flipping this thing, "Oh, that's cool." So that's about the only answer I could give you. It's just you never know what's coming down, and something small and minute could have far-reaching effects.

[Assistant] You mentioned speaking to kids. Do you do a lot of presentations for school groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a senior in high school, and my sister was working at NASA at the time. She had told me that NASA was hiring, and that she thought it would be a good opportunity for me if I wanted to apply. So I applied in the spring of 1966 and was hired and started work in June 1966.

[Assistant] What did you know about NASA at the time?

[User] Very little, to be quite honest. I remember when the announcement was made in the early ’60s that the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC, now Johnson Space Center, JSC, Houston, Texas] was going to be built in the Clear Lake area. I was a teenager at the time and very naively thought that oh, they’re going to launch from Clear Lake. It wasn’t until two or three years later that I finally realized that the Mission Control support area would be in Houston, the launch was actually going to be from the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. But I do remember thinking about that at the time. In March of 1965 the first Gemini flight, John [W.] Young and [Virgil I.] Gus Grissom flew that one. They made the flight on my birthday, the 23rd of March. So I always remembered that mission. With my sister having worked there, I did have a keen interest in it.

[Assistant] Were you from this area originally?

[User] Yes. I was born in Texas City, [Texas] spent most of my childhood in Dickinson, [Texas] graduated from Dickinson High School. So I’m a Gulf Coast girl.

[Assistant] So you got to watch the whole impact of how NASA changed the area, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little, to be quite honest. I remember when the announcement was made in the early ’60s that the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC, now Johnson Space Center, JSC, Houston, Texas] was going to be built in the Clear Lake area. I was a teenager at the time and very naively thought that oh, they’re going to launch from Clear Lake. It wasn’t until two or three years later that I finally realized that the Mission Control support area would be in Houston, the launch was actually going to be from the Cape [Canaveral, Florida]. But I do remember thinking about that at the time. In March of 1965 the first Gemini flight, John [W.] Young and [Virgil I.] Gus Grissom flew that one. They made the flight on my birthday, the 23rd of March. So I always remembered that mission. With my sister having worked there, I did have a keen interest in it.

[Assistant] Were you from this area originally?

[User] Yes. I was born in Texas City, [Texas] spent most of my childhood in Dickinson, [Texas] graduated from Dickinson High School. So I’m a Gulf Coast girl.

[Assistant] So you got to watch the whole impact of how NASA changed the area, didn’t you?

[User] The whole impact, yes. But I was little; six or seven years old. I remember my family going over to Clear Lake. We’d go there and swim on the weekend. It was pastures on both sides of the street. I do remember the [James M.] West Mansion [large home on Clear Lake built by James M. West in 1929/1930]. Sitting there all by itself, as a child I was just blown away by it. But it was rural. Farming country. It wasn’t too many years later that it was a city.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about your first job and the duties and how you became part of the astronaut office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was born in Texas City, [Texas] spent most of my childhood in Dickinson, [Texas] graduated from Dickinson High School. So I’m a Gulf Coast girl.

[Assistant] So you got to watch the whole impact of how NASA changed the area, didn’t you?

[User] The whole impact, yes. But I was little; six or seven years old. I remember my family going over to Clear Lake. We’d go there and swim on the weekend. It was pastures on both sides of the street. I do remember the [James M.] West Mansion [large home on Clear Lake built by James M. West in 1929/1930]. Sitting there all by itself, as a child I was just blown away by it. But it was rural. Farming country. It wasn’t too many years later that it was a city.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about your first job and the duties and how you became part of the astronaut office.

[User] My sister was working at NASA, and in the spring of 1966 she married another NASA employee, Tom [Thomas G.] Mancuso. My sister is Dianna [M. Flowers Mancuso]. [Tom] was working in procurement when I went out to NASA and interviewed for a position. They called and offered me a position. There were, I think, several openings at the time. One of them was in procurement office, and the other one was in the astronaut office. My new brother-in-law worked in procurement, and I thought, "Oh, okay, it may not be too good of an idea for me to go in and work in the same area that he’s working." So I by default picked the astronaut office. At that time I really wasn’t completely aware that the astronauts’ home base was in Houston. They always had been associated with the Cape so much and Florida. I really wasn’t aware that the astronaut office was the astronaut office. I thought maybe it was some type of support unit.

[Assistant] Quite a surprise on your point to find out that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The whole impact, yes. But I was little; six or seven years old. I remember my family going over to Clear Lake. We’d go there and swim on the weekend. It was pastures on both sides of the street. I do remember the [James M.] West Mansion [large home on Clear Lake built by James M. West in 1929/1930]. Sitting there all by itself, as a child I was just blown away by it. But it was rural. Farming country. It wasn’t too many years later that it was a city.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about your first job and the duties and how you became part of the astronaut office.

[User] My sister was working at NASA, and in the spring of 1966 she married another NASA employee, Tom [Thomas G.] Mancuso. My sister is Dianna [M. Flowers Mancuso]. [Tom] was working in procurement when I went out to NASA and interviewed for a position. They called and offered me a position. There were, I think, several openings at the time. One of them was in procurement office, and the other one was in the astronaut office. My new brother-in-law worked in procurement, and I thought, "Oh, okay, it may not be too good of an idea for me to go in and work in the same area that he’s working." So I by default picked the astronaut office. At that time I really wasn’t completely aware that the astronauts’ home base was in Houston. They always had been associated with the Cape so much and Florida. I really wasn’t aware that the astronaut office was the astronaut office. I thought maybe it was some type of support unit.

[Assistant] Quite a surprise on your point to find out that.

[User] Oh, it was quite a surprise.

[Assistant] You had a few, and then you had many, right? A number of astronauts came in right after you got there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My very first job. I graduated from high school one week, and I was standing in Alan Shepard’s office about seven days later.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] It really is.

[User] It really is, and I was the baby of the office. I was the young one. But they gave me just wonderful opportunities. For it to be the first job, it was a learning experience, but it served me well throughout my career, because of the team effort and the quality of work and the quality of people that I was exposed to and working with. I was very, very lucky.

[Assistant] Well, so much was going on during those years. The flights were very quick one right after another.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is.

[Assistant] It really is.

[User] It really is, and I was the baby of the office. I was the young one. But they gave me just wonderful opportunities. For it to be the first job, it was a learning experience, but it served me well throughout my career, because of the team effort and the quality of work and the quality of people that I was exposed to and working with. I was very, very lucky.

[Assistant] Well, so much was going on during those years. The flights were very quick one right after another.

[User] Very quick.

[Assistant] You’ve already mentioned your duties changed so often. One of the things that you mentioned that you had done along the line was to maintain checklists and flight plans. What did all that entail as you got into more of your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Or maybe we should say it was more archaic than what we’re doing now.

[User] It was. We typed on IBM Select typewriters and had to type in at least—the least was triplicate, which meant erasing carbon copies when you had any type of error on them, [for] anything that went out of the office. They were fairly lenient with regard to using [Bic] Wite-Out [correction fluid] and that type of thing. Most people now don’t even know what Wite-Out is. But if anything actually left the office, then we did it until it was perfect. Anything that went to Mr. Slayton’s office—we used to laugh, because having been over there and worked with Sue Symms, she really did get a ruler out and measure the margins to make sure anything that was going to the director’s office was exact, exact. So we called her the ruler lady. Sue was wonderful. We knew what was required, and we produced good documents.

[Assistant] No option.

[User] No option.

[Assistant] You also had to work with the families.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. We typed on IBM Select typewriters and had to type in at least—the least was triplicate, which meant erasing carbon copies when you had any type of error on them, [for] anything that went out of the office. They were fairly lenient with regard to using [Bic] Wite-Out [correction fluid] and that type of thing. Most people now don’t even know what Wite-Out is. But if anything actually left the office, then we did it until it was perfect. Anything that went to Mr. Slayton’s office—we used to laugh, because having been over there and worked with Sue Symms, she really did get a ruler out and measure the margins to make sure anything that was going to the director’s office was exact, exact. So we called her the ruler lady. Sue was wonderful. We knew what was required, and we produced good documents.

[Assistant] No option.

[User] No option.

[Assistant] You also had to work with the families.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So how were you able to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No option.

[Assistant] You also had to work with the families.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So how were you able to do that?

[User] We actually were a family within the astronaut office, and the guys traveled—I still call them “guys”—the astronauts traveled so much, and were out of town. When they were in town, they were in [meetings and] the simulators for hours. We were the contacts the wives had as far as being able to get to their husbands. We developed very close relationships with the wives and the families, especially during launches. We babysat. I babysat for the [Stuart A.] Roosa family and for the [Ronald E.] Evans and for the [Joe H.] Engles and for Bill [William A.] Anders. There were about two or three of us in the office that would babysit, so we really did get to know the kids and the families. Of course the astronauts’ sisters and brothers and mothers and dads would call the office, and we all knew them very well too.

[Assistant] Was part of your job somewhat protecting them from the public?\n\n .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we lost Grissom, White, and [Roger B.] Chaffee, that was extremely difficult for everyone in the office. Since I had been put in the position of working for Colonel Grissom when we all moved upstairs—and that was actually the first secretarial position I had, even though it was temporary—and I had very very strong feelings for Colonel Grissom. When we lost that crew, that was extremely difficult. That was in January of 1967, so I had only been in the astronaut office about six months. I heard it on the radio in the car, that the crew had been lost.\n\n So by the time everybody got to the office, it was an extremely difficult time. But [it was] another [early] lesson learned [for me] from the astronauts, the support, [and] the secretaries. The main [focus] was to find out the cause and to correct it. Once the funerals were over, everybody was at work. Apollo 7, the spacecraft was completely redesigned. Schirra, [Donn F.] Eisele, and [Walter] Cunningham did a tremendous job. Everyone in the office did. It was difficult time.

[Assistant] Must have been a great feeling to share with everybody when Apollo 7 was able to launch and had such a fantastic mission and came back ready to go.

[User] Yes. Oh, exactly. Because had that spacecraft had problems [on Apollo 7], we would not have met President [John F.] Kennedy’s [goal]—we wouldn’t have done it. Because the spacecraft and the crew and the mission was such a success, that was the step we needed to get going.

[Assistant] Then of course Apollo 8 followed.

[User] To the Moon, around the Moon on Christmas Eve, yes.

[Assistant] For a while it was a secret that they were going to take that trip. Were you in the know before that happened as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh, exactly. Because had that spacecraft had problems [on Apollo 7], we would not have met President [John F.] Kennedy’s [goal]—we wouldn’t have done it. Because the spacecraft and the crew and the mission was such a success, that was the step we needed to get going.

[Assistant] Then of course Apollo 8 followed.

[User] To the Moon, around the Moon on Christmas Eve, yes.

[Assistant] For a while it was a secret that they were going to take that trip. Were you in the know before that happened as well?

[User] Yes, yes, we were. But that really was quite a surprise for everyone. The decision was made quite quickly. Someone had the brilliant idea, "Okay, this all worked so well on Apollo 7, let’s do the swing around." [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] said, [Frank] Borman, Anders, they all said, "Sure, let’s give it a go." So away we went. It was quite something. Then [Apollo] 9 tested the Lunar Module [LM]. That was the first test of the Lunar Module. That was done in Earth orbit. Everything was just going perfectly. Everything was going perfectly with those missions. It was exciting, it really was.

[Assistant] When you mentioned earlier about working in the correspondence issue of it, and all the manuals and of course doing the checklists and things, did you find yourself picking up more and more of the technical information and learning more and more about how everything worked?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, I really did, and I got to [the point that] I didn’t need to check with Admiral Shepard—Captain Shepard at the time, Admiral Shepard later—with regard to who needed to get a particular document. It didn’t take me long to pick up on the jargon, on the acronyms, and that was a big adjustment. Oh, my gosh, learning all those acronyms, and going through the mail. Because a lot of times, especially before the [official] announcements were made, [as to] which astronauts were officially [assigned to specific] programs or missions, we would get CCed [carbon copied] on everything, and it would just be sent to the astronaut office. So a large part of my job at that time would be to read these and figure out what it was about and who was working on it. At first I spent quite a bit of time in those weekly meetings with Shepard, and he was extremely gracious and would explain to me [a] particular [subject]—I learned a lot. It wasn’t too long before I got to where I could read [technical memos] and knew who they went to.

[Assistant] You were the keeper of the knowledge, and I bet people started coming to you asking you.

[User] They did.

[Assistant] I was thinking as you got involved more with the missions and actually working, the same type of things would come across your desk, and you were able to filter that information out.

[User] Correct, right, right. Any of the accident reports. We had secret clearances. I remember specifically those things I had to hand-carry to the astronauts. They had to read them and then return them directly to me. We had to sign back and forth, back and forth. The other secretaries did not [officially] get to see those [reports]. I was the only admin person besides Gay Alford that saw the accident reports.

[Assistant] So you had a secret clearance. That’s very interesting, because someone so young—maybe it was easier to clear you that way. You didn’t have a whole lot of experience to go through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct, right, right. Any of the accident reports. We had secret clearances. I remember specifically those things I had to hand-carry to the astronauts. They had to read them and then return them directly to me. We had to sign back and forth, back and forth. The other secretaries did not [officially] get to see those [reports]. I was the only admin person besides Gay Alford that saw the accident reports.

[Assistant] So you had a secret clearance. That’s very interesting, because someone so young—maybe it was easier to clear you that way. You didn’t have a whole lot of experience to go through.

[User] That probably is true. But they did, they actually did knock on the doors of the neighbors. I know that for a fact. They tell you they will do that. Well, they do.

[Assistant] They do?

[User] They do.

[Assistant] Did you also work with the contractors? We know that the astronauts would go to the different facilities.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That probably is true. But they did, they actually did knock on the doors of the neighbors. I know that for a fact. They tell you they will do that. Well, they do.

[Assistant] They do?

[User] They do.

[Assistant] Did you also work with the contractors? We know that the astronauts would go to the different facilities.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] Did you have to correspond with those offices as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They do.

[Assistant] Did you also work with the contractors? We know that the astronauts would go to the different facilities.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] Did you have to correspond with those offices as well?

[User] Yes, and mainly telephone. We did teletype back then [also]. But most of it was telephone. Especially with North American Rockwell [Corporation] and Grumman [Aerospace Corporation] that was building the LM, and North American Rockwell that was building the Command Module. So we had people out there that we interfaced with all of the time. At the Cape and in Houston the simulators, part of the simulator staff were [Philco] Ford [Corporation] and Singer-Link. We had quite a bit of interface with those contractors.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Again all the new technology coming on and you learning more and more about what they all do. I was thinking what we might do is stop for a second, because we’re actually leading up more close into working with Apollo 10. We’ll just stop for a second and let you get a drink of water.\n\n [pause]\n\n I know that one of the special parts of your time working at the Manned Spacecraft Center was that you were very involved in the Apollo 10 mission. Tell us how you were able to be a part of that special time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Snoopy girl. Almost 40 years later, and Tom still introduces me as the Snoopy girl.

[Assistant] So he wasn’t able to take your personal item with him, the Snoopy. Did he go to the launch too? Did you take Snoopy to go watch the launch?

[User] No. Snoopy stayed in the crew quarters, was guarding the crew quarters on launch day. But we did go out and see the launch.

[Assistant] Tell us what that was like, watching your guys go up for the mission.

[User] It was exciting, it was exciting. Of course there was concern, but the success of the previous missions gave you confidence. The Saturn V had launched beautifully, flawlessly. The guys were excited. They were well trained. They were ready to go. There was a great deal of excitement, apprehension, yes, but excitement, very much so. Seeing a Saturn V launch was just—I can still hear it. You don’t forget that sound.

[Assistant] Did you feel it as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Snoopy stayed in the crew quarters, was guarding the crew quarters on launch day. But we did go out and see the launch.

[Assistant] Tell us what that was like, watching your guys go up for the mission.

[User] It was exciting, it was exciting. Of course there was concern, but the success of the previous missions gave you confidence. The Saturn V had launched beautifully, flawlessly. The guys were excited. They were well trained. They were ready to go. There was a great deal of excitement, apprehension, yes, but excitement, very much so. Seeing a Saturn V launch was just—I can still hear it. You don’t forget that sound.

[Assistant] Did you feel it as well?

[User] Oh, you bet, you bet. It came right across at you.

[Assistant] What were your duties during the launch and while the mission was going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was exciting, it was exciting. Of course there was concern, but the success of the previous missions gave you confidence. The Saturn V had launched beautifully, flawlessly. The guys were excited. They were well trained. They were ready to go. There was a great deal of excitement, apprehension, yes, but excitement, very much so. Seeing a Saturn V launch was just—I can still hear it. You don’t forget that sound.

[Assistant] Did you feel it as well?

[User] Oh, you bet, you bet. It came right across at you.

[Assistant] What were your duties during the launch and while the mission was going on?

[User] During the launch once the guys left the quarters, we left shortly thereafter, too, and went out to the private area where we could view the launch. So we, [the secretaries,] were spectators at launch time. As soon as the launch was over, we went back into the crew quarters, [and] at that point I think they considered the secretary’s duty at the Cape complete. Once the crew was launched, we returned to Houston. Sometimes they gave us a day before we needed to be back. But we would return to Houston and work the mission from our office in Houston.\n\n Most of the time we were like everyone else, [and] we watched [and followed the missions] as much as we could. But [during Apollo] 10 I [also] worked for Mike [Michael] Collins, and he was getting ready to fly [Apollo] 11, and I also worked for [Charles] Pete Conrad, [Jr.,] and he was commander on [Apollo] 12. So a lot was happening in the office as 10 was flying; 11 was getting ready to go, and 12 was short behind. We were turning around those missions pretty quickly. We were going from a May 18th launch for Apollo 10, shooting for a July 16th launch for Apollo 11. So it was quick.

[Assistant] Were you down there also for 11? Tell us your involvement with 11.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were still there?

[User] I stayed in Florida. For one thing, I was very very tired. We worked very long long hours leading up to Apollo 11. I had my car down there, and I was going to have to drive it back to Houston. I didn’t want to be on the road if something didn’t go right. I wanted to make sure I was where I could get home quickly if I needed to. So I stayed in Florida and was in Florida when they actually landed and Neil took his first step. Then I returned home shortly, I think the day after that. I came on back.

[Assistant] You had to get Apollo 12 ready.

[User] I had to get Apollo 12 ready, yes, Apollo 12.

[Assistant] Quite a difference between Armstrong and Conrad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I stayed in Florida. For one thing, I was very very tired. We worked very long long hours leading up to Apollo 11. I had my car down there, and I was going to have to drive it back to Houston. I didn’t want to be on the road if something didn’t go right. I wanted to make sure I was where I could get home quickly if I needed to. So I stayed in Florida and was in Florida when they actually landed and Neil took his first step. Then I returned home shortly, I think the day after that. I came on back.

[Assistant] You had to get Apollo 12 ready.

[User] I had to get Apollo 12 ready, yes, Apollo 12.

[Assistant] Quite a difference between Armstrong and Conrad.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes, Pete was Pete, he was one of a kind, he was one of a kind. Delightful. They were all just wonderful. They were all overachievers. All had their own unique individual personalities. Most of them had just great senses of humor and appreciated that a good laugh and a lot of levity helped to ease the stress in the situation. So we did have a good time. We had some fun times.

[Assistant] I guess it helps if you had a sense of humor so that you could laugh along with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to get Apollo 12 ready, yes, Apollo 12.

[Assistant] Quite a difference between Armstrong and Conrad.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes, Pete was Pete, he was one of a kind, he was one of a kind. Delightful. They were all just wonderful. They were all overachievers. All had their own unique individual personalities. Most of them had just great senses of humor and appreciated that a good laugh and a lot of levity helped to ease the stress in the situation. So we did have a good time. We had some fun times.

[Assistant] I guess it helps if you had a sense of humor so that you could laugh along with them.

[User] You had to, because they would play jokes on us just for the sport of it. So you had to learn to give as good as you got.

[Assistant] Other than Snoopy, did you have a chance to do any gotchas back to that crew or crews in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes, Pete was Pete, he was one of a kind, he was one of a kind. Delightful. They were all just wonderful. They were all overachievers. All had their own unique individual personalities. Most of them had just great senses of humor and appreciated that a good laugh and a lot of levity helped to ease the stress in the situation. So we did have a good time. We had some fun times.

[Assistant] I guess it helps if you had a sense of humor so that you could laugh along with them.

[User] You had to, because they would play jokes on us just for the sport of it. So you had to learn to give as good as you got.

[Assistant] Other than Snoopy, did you have a chance to do any gotchas back to that crew or crews in general?

[User] It was generally more in the office. I made the comment one time to one of the guys—I can’t remember, but I think it was Ron Evans—that I was always looking for string. I never could find string. Well, about three days later I come into the office at 7:30 in the morning and I cannot get in the door of my office. It looked like a web in there. They had taken the string and stretched it all over the office. They were always doing crazy things like that. Back then there was a brand called Hang Ten with these little “surfer” feet [for a logo]. [Gordon] Cooper had gotten to work with a stamp pad [in Charlene Stroman’s office] and put little feet running all over the walls so it looked like this little creature had been in there overnight. They were always doing crazy things like that. We generally couldn’t get back at them too much, but we did our share, we certainly did.

[Assistant] It’s amazing how busy they were, they found time to do those types of things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You had to, because they would play jokes on us just for the sport of it. So you had to learn to give as good as you got.

[Assistant] Other than Snoopy, did you have a chance to do any gotchas back to that crew or crews in general?

[User] It was generally more in the office. I made the comment one time to one of the guys—I can’t remember, but I think it was Ron Evans—that I was always looking for string. I never could find string. Well, about three days later I come into the office at 7:30 in the morning and I cannot get in the door of my office. It looked like a web in there. They had taken the string and stretched it all over the office. They were always doing crazy things like that. Back then there was a brand called Hang Ten with these little “surfer” feet [for a logo]. [Gordon] Cooper had gotten to work with a stamp pad [in Charlene Stroman’s office] and put little feet running all over the walls so it looked like this little creature had been in there overnight. They were always doing crazy things like that. We generally couldn’t get back at them too much, but we did our share, we certainly did.

[Assistant] It’s amazing how busy they were, they found time to do those types of things.

[User] That was the way they let off a little bit of steam and got out from underneath a lot of the stress. They worked horrendous hours, absolutely horrendous hours. We were good, [easy] targets. So were the training guys and the team leaders, and they were always slipping things in their checklists that they would find when they were flipping through their checklists. They would find all these fun little things and different patches. I think it helped. I think it helped a lot.

[Assistant] I guess you found some of those things too, when they would slip them in for the guys, you would find them first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was generally more in the office. I made the comment one time to one of the guys—I can’t remember, but I think it was Ron Evans—that I was always looking for string. I never could find string. Well, about three days later I come into the office at 7:30 in the morning and I cannot get in the door of my office. It looked like a web in there. They had taken the string and stretched it all over the office. They were always doing crazy things like that. Back then there was a brand called Hang Ten with these little “surfer” feet [for a logo]. [Gordon] Cooper had gotten to work with a stamp pad [in Charlene Stroman’s office] and put little feet running all over the walls so it looked like this little creature had been in there overnight. They were always doing crazy things like that. We generally couldn’t get back at them too much, but we did our share, we certainly did.

[Assistant] It’s amazing how busy they were, they found time to do those types of things.

[User] That was the way they let off a little bit of steam and got out from underneath a lot of the stress. They worked horrendous hours, absolutely horrendous hours. We were good, [easy] targets. So were the training guys and the team leaders, and they were always slipping things in their checklists that they would find when they were flipping through their checklists. They would find all these fun little things and different patches. I think it helped. I think it helped a lot.

[Assistant] I guess you found some of those things too, when they would slip them in for the guys, you would find them first.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] It must have given you some kind of entertainment, watching them find those things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the way they let off a little bit of steam and got out from underneath a lot of the stress. They worked horrendous hours, absolutely horrendous hours. We were good, [easy] targets. So were the training guys and the team leaders, and they were always slipping things in their checklists that they would find when they were flipping through their checklists. They would find all these fun little things and different patches. I think it helped. I think it helped a lot.

[Assistant] I guess you found some of those things too, when they would slip them in for the guys, you would find them first.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] It must have given you some kind of entertainment, watching them find those things.

[User] Oh, it was. They enjoyed it. The guys that thought up these things were always very proud of what they did. The astronauts had great appreciation for the creativity behind these gotchas and pranks.

[Assistant] You were telling us during the break about Grissom and lunch with space food. Could you share with us the details about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] It must have given you some kind of entertainment, watching them find those things.

[User] Oh, it was. They enjoyed it. The guys that thought up these things were always very proud of what they did. The astronauts had great appreciation for the creativity behind these gotchas and pranks.

[Assistant] You were telling us during the break about Grissom and lunch with space food. Could you share with us the details about that?

[User] I was working with Colonel Grissom in Flight C at the time. The guys were asked to test things. One of the things was the food. So Colonel Grissom had told me he was going to fix me lunch one day. That he did. It was the biggest mess I have ever seen. I don’t [remember] what it was. He added too much water to it, whatever it was. So it was floating. He’s behind his desk. I’m sitting in front of the desk. I think after squeezing the water out of about three spoonfuls, we both decided that I probably needed to go over to the cafeteria and pick up a couple of tuna sandwiches because he didn’t mix it right. But he was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] You didn’t recommend him to be the chef, I take it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was. They enjoyed it. The guys that thought up these things were always very proud of what they did. The astronauts had great appreciation for the creativity behind these gotchas and pranks.

[Assistant] You were telling us during the break about Grissom and lunch with space food. Could you share with us the details about that?

[User] I was working with Colonel Grissom in Flight C at the time. The guys were asked to test things. One of the things was the food. So Colonel Grissom had told me he was going to fix me lunch one day. That he did. It was the biggest mess I have ever seen. I don’t [remember] what it was. He added too much water to it, whatever it was. So it was floating. He’s behind his desk. I’m sitting in front of the desk. I think after squeezing the water out of about three spoonfuls, we both decided that I probably needed to go over to the cafeteria and pick up a couple of tuna sandwiches because he didn’t mix it right. But he was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] You didn’t recommend him to be the chef, I take it.

[User] No, no. But he learned. That was a learning experience for him. I think he probably even may have made some changes in what he was selecting as his food choices. Because they were given choices as far as what was going to be available for these flights, and that they could pick what they wanted for specific meals, and that’s what would be packed.

[Assistant] We’ve talked some about what you did in preparation for the missions. When they came back, did you work with them as far as their debriefs and suggestions that they would have for the next crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. But he learned. That was a learning experience for him. I think he probably even may have made some changes in what he was selecting as his food choices. Because they were given choices as far as what was going to be available for these flights, and that they could pick what they wanted for specific meals, and that’s what would be packed.

[Assistant] We’ve talked some about what you did in preparation for the missions. When they came back, did you work with them as far as their debriefs and suggestions that they would have for the next crew?

[User] No. Because those were technical. The first debriefing they had was in the conference room in the astronaut office. They would give a pretty open and detailed briefing, and it was closed, it was the astronauts only. We may have gotten involved to the extent of typing up something for it. But as far as any preparation for it, we did not. But our main role post-mission was all the correspondence that was required in support of all the letters that were coming in, [and] all [their personal] thank-you letters. All of the Apollo crews made post-flight appearances, and most of them were world tours. So we were gearing up to get them ready to go. That meant all the visas and passports and working with the State Department to get all of that done. Then they would be gone for ten days, two weeks, sometimes longer than that on those post-flight tours.

[Assistant] Didn’t get to go on those.

[User] No, we didn’t. No, Headquarters always got to staff those. That wasn’t totally fair. But we had another mission following. So it was nice to have them out of the office for a few days so we could get on with getting ready for Apollo 12.

[Assistant] So you worked with 12 as well. Anything different on that one than you had done for the other two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Equipment, and a lot of the stuff that we were involved in as far as the correspondence and the memorandums had to do with their work on and training in the Rover and training with their experiments. I did have [a unique] opportunity one time. We had a rock [area], the “lunar surface,” which was a little more than a rock pile. There was one at KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] and at JSC, MSC back then. The guys were suited, and I went out [to the rock pile] with them [when] they were working on setting out experiments, and took notes on their comments as far as what it was that they thought needed to be changed or their comments that this cord was too long, or this was too short, or we weren’t going to be able to attach what we needed to. That was interesting [and] a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

[Assistant] Do you feel like you kind of got to go to the Moon there?

[User] Yes, well, you really felt like you were part of it. More than just in the office.

[Assistant] You got to see what you had been reading. That had to be neat. Hopefully it was cool for them.

[User] Yes, they had their little portable air conditioners.

[Assistant] Maybe you needed one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, well, you really felt like you were part of it. More than just in the office.

[Assistant] You got to see what you had been reading. That had to be neat. Hopefully it was cool for them.

[User] Yes, they had their little portable air conditioners.

[Assistant] Maybe you needed one.

[User] I remember having heels on. I didn’t know I was going until I got to the office that day. I remember having heels on being out there chunking around on rocks.

[Assistant] That must have been difficult, but you did it. You mentioned you went to the Cape on Apollo 16. Then I know that you mentioned too that you worked up until 1973. So what was your last mission? Then did you help prepare things for the Skylab missions and that era?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. With high achievers, high achievers.

[Assistant] Military backgrounds, a lot of ego.

[User] A lot of egos. A lot of the problem too in the office—not a problem, but most of those guys were test pilots. We had a couple of them that were called in from duty in Vietnam. They found out when they were in Vietnam that they had been selected for astronauts. Ron Evans was one of them that I remember. But they weren’t used to desk jobs. These guys were pilots. They were flyers. So we had to help them understand what it meant to have an office. It was an adjustment for a lot of them to be in offices and have the routines and the meetings that were required.

[Assistant] The GALs, as you mentioned that you have contact with again, were you all close as friends? Because you mentioned you were the baby, so the ages must have ranged somewhat in there.

[User] There was a range. I think Charlotte Maltese was [four or] five years older than I was. Toni Zahn was probably ten years older. Gay and Penny Study were both probably in their early 40s maybe. But we were all close. We were a close group. We were close with the people in the appearance section [also], because they supported the guys in their post-flight appearances. We were good friends in the office and outside of the office.

[Assistant] I have to imagine you had a lot of secrets. Not secrets as in secrets, but things that happened inside that office that just stayed inside that office that you were all pretty much compelled to keep there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of egos. A lot of the problem too in the office—not a problem, but most of those guys were test pilots. We had a couple of them that were called in from duty in Vietnam. They found out when they were in Vietnam that they had been selected for astronauts. Ron Evans was one of them that I remember. But they weren’t used to desk jobs. These guys were pilots. They were flyers. So we had to help them understand what it meant to have an office. It was an adjustment for a lot of them to be in offices and have the routines and the meetings that were required.

[Assistant] The GALs, as you mentioned that you have contact with again, were you all close as friends? Because you mentioned you were the baby, so the ages must have ranged somewhat in there.

[User] There was a range. I think Charlotte Maltese was [four or] five years older than I was. Toni Zahn was probably ten years older. Gay and Penny Study were both probably in their early 40s maybe. But we were all close. We were a close group. We were close with the people in the appearance section [also], because they supported the guys in their post-flight appearances. We were good friends in the office and outside of the office.

[Assistant] I have to imagine you had a lot of secrets. Not secrets as in secrets, but things that happened inside that office that just stayed inside that office that you were all pretty much compelled to keep there.

[User] Yes. Yes, and that was just the nature of what was going on.

[Assistant] On a related note to that, we wanted to ask you if you had some special memories that you can share with us about any of the missions. I know you’ve already talked about some, but just anything else that might have popped into your mind of working in there. Well, one I could ask you about is the Snoopy Award.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a range. I think Charlotte Maltese was [four or] five years older than I was. Toni Zahn was probably ten years older. Gay and Penny Study were both probably in their early 40s maybe. But we were all close. We were a close group. We were close with the people in the appearance section [also], because they supported the guys in their post-flight appearances. We were good friends in the office and outside of the office.

[Assistant] I have to imagine you had a lot of secrets. Not secrets as in secrets, but things that happened inside that office that just stayed inside that office that you were all pretty much compelled to keep there.

[User] Yes. Yes, and that was just the nature of what was going on.

[Assistant] On a related note to that, we wanted to ask you if you had some special memories that you can share with us about any of the missions. I know you’ve already talked about some, but just anything else that might have popped into your mind of working in there. Well, one I could ask you about is the Snoopy Award.

[User] Yes. My Silver Snoopy—and I wish I could remember what year. I’d have to dig [the information] out. But it was in the late ’60s. I think it was right around the Apollo 10, Apollo 11, because I did those back-to-back trips to the Cape.

[Assistant] What astronaut gave it to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, and that was just the nature of what was going on.

[Assistant] On a related note to that, we wanted to ask you if you had some special memories that you can share with us about any of the missions. I know you’ve already talked about some, but just anything else that might have popped into your mind of working in there. Well, one I could ask you about is the Snoopy Award.

[User] Yes. My Silver Snoopy—and I wish I could remember what year. I’d have to dig [the information] out. But it was in the late ’60s. I think it was right around the Apollo 10, Apollo 11, because I did those back-to-back trips to the Cape.

[Assistant] What astronaut gave it to you?

[User] I think it was Slayton, and I think I’ve got a picture of it. I’m pretty sure.

[Assistant] That’s pretty special.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all.

[Assistant] One question I wanted to ask you. I was curious. You might be the person in the know. One of the things that I’ve been looking at—and I’m working on a larger article now—is about the wine and Skylab controversy. Since you worked with the Skylab 2 crew, and Kerwin as I understand it was one of the key proponents of bringing wine on board Skylab, I was wondering what are your memories of that?

[User] Yes. Oh, boy, but I’m going to have to think about that. Oh.

[Assistant] That’s okay. I thought I would ask you.

[User] No, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I hate to say unless I really think about it. But I think the reason Kerwin was such a proponent of it was for religious purposes, to be able to take communion.

[Assistant] You mentioned so much about the astronaut office, and you mentioned of course the New 19. I was curious how did the office change when the Excess 11 [Astronaut Group 6] and the MOL [U.S. Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory] astronauts came on board.