[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was also in international relations. That's why. I wrote an undergraduate thesis and based on my undergraduate thesis, that's why they awarded me the free one year of graduate school. They liked it. So I completed a year of graduate school and then I had two job offers, but my mother needed financial assistance. And she asked me if I would come to Toledo where she was living and help her with her finances. It was not my first choice, but I did go to Toledo and I worked for two years in technical development for a glass company, and I paid off all of my mother's debts. And then I joined the Peace Corps because I had heard about the Peace Corps as soon as it was announced by John Kennedy and Sargent Shriver. And I knew it was something I wanted to do because I had this great interest in international relations and travel abroad and work abroad. So I went into the Peace Corps. And that's pretty much what I did before joining.

[Assistant] Very good. And as you say, your major interest in joining was because of your background in international relations and travel.

[User] Uh huh. Plus, in the military, I served at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and also Munich, Germany, so my German experience really, really intensified my desire to see the world.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps? You mentioned it was.

[User] Yeah, when it was announced by Kennedy and Shriver, it was, I knew immediately that, I think that was in 1961. I knew immediately as what I wanted to do, but I still had to help my mother get out of debt. So in 1962, with as I felt that I could leave and go into it.

[Assistant] What was the process at that time for joining the Peace Corps? Do you remember the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh. Plus, in the military, I served at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and also Munich, Germany, so my German experience really, really intensified my desire to see the world.

[Assistant] How did you hear about the Peace Corps? You mentioned it was.

[User] Yeah, when it was announced by Kennedy and Shriver, it was, I knew immediately that, I think that was in 1961. I knew immediately as what I wanted to do, but I still had to help my mother get out of debt. So in 1962, with as I felt that I could leave and go into it.

[Assistant] What was the process at that time for joining the Peace Corps? Do you remember the application process?

[User] Not too much. I remember applying. And being notified that I was accepted and I was to report to, I think it was New York, for orientation. And then down to Puerto Rico for four months of training.

[Assistant] How long did it take between your applying and your being accepted, was it drawn out or a fairly quick?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, when it was announced by Kennedy and Shriver, it was, I knew immediately that, I think that was in 1961. I knew immediately as what I wanted to do, but I still had to help my mother get out of debt. So in 1962, with as I felt that I could leave and go into it.

[Assistant] What was the process at that time for joining the Peace Corps? Do you remember the application process?

[User] Not too much. I remember applying. And being notified that I was accepted and I was to report to, I think it was New York, for orientation. And then down to Puerto Rico for four months of training.

[Assistant] How long did it take between your applying and your being accepted, was it drawn out or a fairly quick?

[User] It was fairly quick. I don't recall. It's been 55 years or more, but I think it was fairly quick.

[Assistant] Did you at the time have a particular area of the world or a country you were interested in serving in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not too much. I remember applying. And being notified that I was accepted and I was to report to, I think it was New York, for orientation. And then down to Puerto Rico for four months of training.

[Assistant] How long did it take between your applying and your being accepted, was it drawn out or a fairly quick?

[User] It was fairly quick. I don't recall. It's been 55 years or more, but I think it was fairly quick.

[Assistant] Did you at the time have a particular area of the world or a country you were interested in serving in?

[User] Yes, I was interested in the Far East and it was a surprise when I was offered the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] How did you react to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fairly quick. I don't recall. It's been 55 years or more, but I think it was fairly quick.

[Assistant] Did you at the time have a particular area of the world or a country you were interested in serving in?

[User] Yes, I was interested in the Far East and it was a surprise when I was offered the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] How did you react to that?

[User] Well, I was a little disappointed, but still I thought, well, I've never been to Latin America before, except for northern Mexico. So, yeah, alright. I was willing to go and check it out.

[Assistant] Had you had any language training before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was interested in the Far East and it was a surprise when I was offered the Dominican Republic.

[Assistant] How did you react to that?

[User] Well, I was a little disappointed, but still I thought, well, I've never been to Latin America before, except for northern Mexico. So, yeah, alright. I was willing to go and check it out.

[Assistant] Had you had any language training before?

[User] Not in Spanish. I'd taken a few courses in German, but not in Spanish.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family, how did they react to the decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a little disappointed, but still I thought, well, I've never been to Latin America before, except for northern Mexico. So, yeah, alright. I was willing to go and check it out.

[Assistant] Had you had any language training before?

[User] Not in Spanish. I'd taken a few courses in German, but not in Spanish.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family, how did they react to the decision?

[User] Well, it was just my mother and since her debts were paid, she had really no reason for asking me to stick around. And my brother and my brother-in-law and sister were living nearby, and they had their own life to live. So I was pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] And giving you had been in the military and back to grad school, how old were you when you started Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in Spanish. I'd taken a few courses in German, but not in Spanish.

[Assistant] What about your friends and family, how did they react to the decision?

[User] Well, it was just my mother and since her debts were paid, she had really no reason for asking me to stick around. And my brother and my brother-in-law and sister were living nearby, and they had their own life to live. So I was pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] And giving you had been in the military and back to grad school, how old were you when you started Peace Corps?

[User] I was, uh, just a minute. I was 28 years old.

[Assistant] So you were a bit older than some of the others, or was there a range of age in your training class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was just my mother and since her debts were paid, she had really no reason for asking me to stick around. And my brother and my brother-in-law and sister were living nearby, and they had their own life to live. So I was pretty much on my own.

[Assistant] And giving you had been in the military and back to grad school, how old were you when you started Peace Corps?

[User] I was, uh, just a minute. I was 28 years old.

[Assistant] So you were a bit older than some of the others, or was there a range of age in your training class?

[User] I would say most of them were younger than me because they were primarily fresh out of college. In fact, some had not even gone to college. And but yet we did have seniors in the group, older people. So I was. And we did have some older veterans in our group, military veterans. So but I was, I'd say, among the middle upper age group.

[Assistant] Before we started the interview, you mentioned to me some rather unique trainees that were also there, through a judge, I guess, was given options. You mentioned a judge that gave some of the trainees an option to go to jail or go to the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, uh, just a minute. I was 28 years old.

[Assistant] So you were a bit older than some of the others, or was there a range of age in your training class?

[User] I would say most of them were younger than me because they were primarily fresh out of college. In fact, some had not even gone to college. And but yet we did have seniors in the group, older people. So I was. And we did have some older veterans in our group, military veterans. So but I was, I'd say, among the middle upper age group.

[Assistant] Before we started the interview, you mentioned to me some rather unique trainees that were also there, through a judge, I guess, was given options. You mentioned a judge that gave some of the trainees an option to go to jail or go to the Peace Corps.

[User] Oh yes. We had a variety of Peace Corps recruits and two men had been juveniles, and the court had to give them an option of going to jail, incarceration, or joining the Peace Corps. That's what I heard. So I can't vouch for that as being truthful, but this is what I heard. They did not last more than a week after we arrived in country.

[Assistant] And the training you had in Puerto Rico was in the Outward Bound camps in the rainforest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say most of them were younger than me because they were primarily fresh out of college. In fact, some had not even gone to college. And but yet we did have seniors in the group, older people. So I was. And we did have some older veterans in our group, military veterans. So but I was, I'd say, among the middle upper age group.

[Assistant] Before we started the interview, you mentioned to me some rather unique trainees that were also there, through a judge, I guess, was given options. You mentioned a judge that gave some of the trainees an option to go to jail or go to the Peace Corps.

[User] Oh yes. We had a variety of Peace Corps recruits and two men had been juveniles, and the court had to give them an option of going to jail, incarceration, or joining the Peace Corps. That's what I heard. So I can't vouch for that as being truthful, but this is what I heard. They did not last more than a week after we arrived in country.

[Assistant] And the training you had in Puerto Rico was in the Outward Bound camps in the rainforest?

[User] We had two months of Outward Bound training up in the mountains and then we had two more months at the University of Puerto Rico for our regular training. During the Outward Bound training, though, we did have classes in Spanish, but at the university we concentrated on what we were supposed to do in country, which is, in my group, is being trained for rural community development. The other half of my group was being trained for English teaching.

[Assistant] And the Outward Bound portion, I'm just curious, given there were veterans in the group versus younger people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. We had a variety of Peace Corps recruits and two men had been juveniles, and the court had to give them an option of going to jail, incarceration, or joining the Peace Corps. That's what I heard. So I can't vouch for that as being truthful, but this is what I heard. They did not last more than a week after we arrived in country.

[Assistant] And the training you had in Puerto Rico was in the Outward Bound camps in the rainforest?

[User] We had two months of Outward Bound training up in the mountains and then we had two more months at the University of Puerto Rico for our regular training. During the Outward Bound training, though, we did have classes in Spanish, but at the university we concentrated on what we were supposed to do in country, which is, in my group, is being trained for rural community development. The other half of my group was being trained for English teaching.

[Assistant] And the Outward Bound portion, I'm just curious, given there were veterans in the group versus younger people.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did that play out given your military experience doing Outward Bound versus some of the other members of the training class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were your instructors Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Americans?

[User] The instructors were good. But I am not talented when it comes to picking up languages. So I did the best I could. Other people, several people in our group could already speak Spanish before we even arrived. So for them, it was simple. For me, it was more challenging trying to learn the language.

[Assistant] But did they bring Dominican instructors over or were using Puerto Rican?

[User] No, all the instructors were local Puerto Ricans.

[Assistant] What about the rural community development technical training? What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The instructors were good. But I am not talented when it comes to picking up languages. So I did the best I could. Other people, several people in our group could already speak Spanish before we even arrived. So for them, it was simple. For me, it was more challenging trying to learn the language.

[Assistant] But did they bring Dominican instructors over or were using Puerto Rican?

[User] No, all the instructors were local Puerto Ricans.

[Assistant] What about the rural community development technical training? What was that like?

[User] That was interesting. They sent half of our group, the English teachers, over to the country about two weeks before us, and they kept the community developers in Puerto Rico for additional community development training. And we went out and we met Puerto Rican professionals who were doing community development work in Puerto Rico. And basically, we'd sit with them in community circles when they were lecturing the local community and cooperating and in community development training. And so we listened in and we tried to learn as much as we could. And then we visited rural homes and people and talked to them to see if they could give us any suggestions and ideals and how to deal with the rural people when we were meeting with them to get acquainted. And it was a wonderful experience.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were any films or texts that were used or mostly lecture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, all the instructors were local Puerto Ricans.

[Assistant] What about the rural community development technical training? What was that like?

[User] That was interesting. They sent half of our group, the English teachers, over to the country about two weeks before us, and they kept the community developers in Puerto Rico for additional community development training. And we went out and we met Puerto Rican professionals who were doing community development work in Puerto Rico. And basically, we'd sit with them in community circles when they were lecturing the local community and cooperating and in community development training. And so we listened in and we tried to learn as much as we could. And then we visited rural homes and people and talked to them to see if they could give us any suggestions and ideals and how to deal with the rural people when we were meeting with them to get acquainted. And it was a wonderful experience.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were any films or texts that were used or mostly lecture?

[User] Mostly lectures and mostly on the job with the rural community developer in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Do you feel that the training adequately prepared you for your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was interesting. They sent half of our group, the English teachers, over to the country about two weeks before us, and they kept the community developers in Puerto Rico for additional community development training. And we went out and we met Puerto Rican professionals who were doing community development work in Puerto Rico. And basically, we'd sit with them in community circles when they were lecturing the local community and cooperating and in community development training. And so we listened in and we tried to learn as much as we could. And then we visited rural homes and people and talked to them to see if they could give us any suggestions and ideals and how to deal with the rural people when we were meeting with them to get acquainted. And it was a wonderful experience.

[Assistant] Do you recall if there were any films or texts that were used or mostly lecture?

[User] Mostly lectures and mostly on the job with the rural community developer in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Do you feel that the training adequately prepared you for your assignment?

[User] The training was what?

[Assistant] If it prepared you adequately to do the work you were expected to do? Or what would you have liked in addition or there was something more that you would have in retrospect felt would have helped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly lectures and mostly on the job with the rural community developer in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Do you feel that the training adequately prepared you for your assignment?

[User] The training was what?

[Assistant] If it prepared you adequately to do the work you were expected to do? Or what would you have liked in addition or there was something more that you would have in retrospect felt would have helped.

[User] Here's my evaluation. We spent two months in Outward Bound training and two months at the university. And most of the training in the university was academic, and so the two weeks that we had of actual, you might say, on hands training with a Puerto Rican professional community development was basically all we had, and we did not experience enough to make us highly qualified to do the work. So I cannot say that the training, that I felt the training was adequate.

[Assistant] During the training process, I know in your time period there was a selection process. Were trainees asked to leave during training or did some decide on their own to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Here's my evaluation. We spent two months in Outward Bound training and two months at the university. And most of the training in the university was academic, and so the two weeks that we had of actual, you might say, on hands training with a Puerto Rican professional community development was basically all we had, and we did not experience enough to make us highly qualified to do the work. So I cannot say that the training, that I felt the training was adequate.

[Assistant] During the training process, I know in your time period there was a selection process. Were trainees asked to leave during training or did some decide on their own to leave?

[User] Oh. You know, we lost. Well, we lost a few in training. And most of them were asked to leave, during the training. And we lost a lot more once we got into country during the time there. And that was. Very few left on their own. They were asked to leave, told to leave.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] For one thing or another.

[Assistant] And the ones that were leaving, was that earlier in the service or did it continue throughout your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. You know, we lost. Well, we lost a few in training. And most of them were asked to leave, during the training. And we lost a lot more once we got into country during the time there. And that was. Very few left on their own. They were asked to leave, told to leave.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] For one thing or another.

[Assistant] And the ones that were leaving, was that earlier in the service or did it continue throughout your service?

[User] It continued. Well, it was primarily early in the service, but it continued throughout the service. In fact, my. One year in service, my partner up in Constanza, his partner was told he had to leave. Because he was, had a racket. He was accepting cash that his group was earning, and he was accepting part of it for himself, and that was prohibited. So he was sent home, and it was after one year of service in the country.

[Assistant] What was your initial entry like into Santo Domingo? Actually, you were sent to Constanza, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For one thing or another.

[Assistant] And the ones that were leaving, was that earlier in the service or did it continue throughout your service?

[User] It continued. Well, it was primarily early in the service, but it continued throughout the service. In fact, my. One year in service, my partner up in Constanza, his partner was told he had to leave. Because he was, had a racket. He was accepting cash that his group was earning, and he was accepting part of it for himself, and that was prohibited. So he was sent home, and it was after one year of service in the country.

[Assistant] What was your initial entry like into Santo Domingo? Actually, you were sent to Constanza, right?

[User] My first assignment was Hato Mayor, in the far eastern part. Very, very hot and humid.

[Assistant] And what were you doing there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
The Peace Corps had agricultural farms in the U.S. that donated the chickens, chicken farms, and they donated the chicks to the Peace Corps and shipped them down. Now the Peace Corps apparently didn't know that white chickens were not welcome. But anyway, we still with the money we made, we repaid every member of the association what they had contributed. We paid off the price of the waters and the feeders and the medicine that we had bought, and so we had a chicken house ready for more than two hundred chickens. And I met with a group and I explained that now we could bring in a much larger group of chickens. They would not be white. And then we would start, the association would start making some money. We had a meeting. They voted to stop the association, divide what's left, and quit, because they did not like to work.

I was so disgusted that I asked the Peace Corps country director for a reassignment. And so that's why I only spent one year in Hato Mayor. And then the Peace Corps country director, whom I had the greatest respect for, reassigned me up in the mountains to Constanza in the other end of the country.

[Assistant] Was that Andy Hernandez?

[User] Andy Hernandez, yeah.

[Assistant] I met him, quite fascinating fellow.

[User] Yeah. He had been in the military.

[Assistant] Is the association, where they the youth or were they adults by then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Andy Hernandez, yeah.

[Assistant] I met him, quite fascinating fellow.

[User] Yeah. He had been in the military.

[Assistant] Is the association, where they the youth or were they adults by then?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] The association, the members association that you said. I thought originally you said they were young people who were raising the chickens.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. He had been in the military.

[Assistant] Is the association, where they the youth or were they adults by then?

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] The association, the members association that you said. I thought originally you said they were young people who were raising the chickens.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So when you had your association, they were still the youth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sorry?

[Assistant] The association, the members association that you said. I thought originally you said they were young people who were raising the chickens.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So when you had your association, they were still the youth?

[User] No. Well, not really young, moderate age, 20s.

[Assistant] Okay. So they weren't children.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, not really young, moderate age, 20s.

[Assistant] Okay. So they weren't children.

[User] Yeah, no. Mostly the kids who were for the sports.

[Assistant] Gotcha. OK.

[User] But for the association, it was mostly young adults.

[Assistant] OK, I misunderstood that one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, no. Mostly the kids who were for the sports.

[Assistant] Gotcha. OK.

[User] But for the association, it was mostly young adults.

[Assistant] OK, I misunderstood that one.

[User] Yeah. I didn't understand, but looking back now, I know, because before I left, the Peace Corps assigned a third volunteer to our group and he had experience as an architect. And he organized a group before I left and asked them what they'd like to do. And they said, we would like to have our own community center. And he said, great, we will build it. And they said OK. So he designed it. He was, he knew what he was doing. He designed it. And then they all went out and they started working on it. And they put up the, they dug the foundation, they put up the cement pillars, and then all of a sudden it was abandoned because the people got tired of working. And so as far as I know, it might be still standing there after all these years, concrete pillars in the air, incomplete community center, because the people did not want to work anymore. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Did you have any interaction with staff during this time period or were they of any assistance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I didn't understand, but looking back now, I know, because before I left, the Peace Corps assigned a third volunteer to our group and he had experience as an architect. And he organized a group before I left and asked them what they'd like to do. And they said, we would like to have our own community center. And he said, great, we will build it. And they said OK. So he designed it. He was, he knew what he was doing. He designed it. And then they all went out and they started working on it. And they put up the, they dug the foundation, they put up the cement pillars, and then all of a sudden it was abandoned because the people got tired of working. And so as far as I know, it might be still standing there after all these years, concrete pillars in the air, incomplete community center, because the people did not want to work anymore. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Did you have any interaction with staff during this time period or were they of any assistance?

[User] Peace Corps staff?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Not really. They would visit maybe once every three or four months just to see what was going on and but with no consequence from any of the visits.

[Assistant] And the assignment to Hato Mayor didn't include assigning you to any particular organization? It was just this is where you're going to live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps staff?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Not really. They would visit maybe once every three or four months just to see what was going on and but with no consequence from any of the visits.

[Assistant] And the assignment to Hato Mayor didn't include assigning you to any particular organization? It was just this is where you're going to live?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] This is what you figure out what to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] This is what you figure out what to do.

[User] Yeah. Well, see my partner up in Constanza had just lost his partner, who was sent home for corruption.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so he was up there alone. And so I was sent up with him. And so he already had a little house he was renting. So I moved in and that's where we lived until both of us completed our two years and went home.

[Assistant] But in neither case, in Hato Mayor or Constanza, you weren't assigned to an organization to work with, no coworkers or counterparts in the work you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, see my partner up in Constanza had just lost his partner, who was sent home for corruption.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so he was up there alone. And so I was sent up with him. And so he already had a little house he was renting. So I moved in and that's where we lived until both of us completed our two years and went home.

[Assistant] But in neither case, in Hato Mayor or Constanza, you weren't assigned to an organization to work with, no coworkers or counterparts in the work you were doing?

[User] No, we were pretty much on our own. When I got to Constanza, I did the same thing I did when I arrived in Hato Mayor. I tried to get familiar with the community, talk to people and see how I could help.

[Assistant] You mentioned Hato Mayor was quite hot environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so he was up there alone. And so I was sent up with him. And so he already had a little house he was renting. So I moved in and that's where we lived until both of us completed our two years and went home.

[Assistant] But in neither case, in Hato Mayor or Constanza, you weren't assigned to an organization to work with, no coworkers or counterparts in the work you were doing?

[User] No, we were pretty much on our own. When I got to Constanza, I did the same thing I did when I arrived in Hato Mayor. I tried to get familiar with the community, talk to people and see how I could help.

[Assistant] You mentioned Hato Mayor was quite hot environment.

[User] Very hot and humid.

[Assistant] And Constanza I know is up in the mountains, so quite a bit different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were pretty much on our own. When I got to Constanza, I did the same thing I did when I arrived in Hato Mayor. I tried to get familiar with the community, talk to people and see how I could help.

[Assistant] You mentioned Hato Mayor was quite hot environment.

[User] Very hot and humid.

[Assistant] And Constanza I know is up in the mountains, so quite a bit different.

[User] Much cooler. And in fact, in the wintertime we had no heat in the house, but the water, if in a puddle outside, sometimes would freeze. It got that cold, never to snow, but the water would freeze.

[Assistant] Any other issues with the environment in either place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very hot and humid.

[Assistant] And Constanza I know is up in the mountains, so quite a bit different.

[User] Much cooler. And in fact, in the wintertime we had no heat in the house, but the water, if in a puddle outside, sometimes would freeze. It got that cold, never to snow, but the water would freeze.

[Assistant] Any other issues with the environment in either place?

[User] Just too hot and humid. It's sometimes it's understandable that people didn't want to work, it was too hot. But in Constanza, no, the weather was not really a problem. It was, our house wasn't heated, but, you know, we had warm clothes for the winter, bedding, blankets on the beds. We didn't have indoor plumbing. We couldn't didn't have a stove and couldn't cook our own food, but we would just go down the street to a cafe to eat every day. But it was not a bad life in Constanza.

[Assistant] And what specifically was your job there or what did you decide to get involved with in Constanza?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Much cooler. And in fact, in the wintertime we had no heat in the house, but the water, if in a puddle outside, sometimes would freeze. It got that cold, never to snow, but the water would freeze.

[Assistant] Any other issues with the environment in either place?

[User] Just too hot and humid. It's sometimes it's understandable that people didn't want to work, it was too hot. But in Constanza, no, the weather was not really a problem. It was, our house wasn't heated, but, you know, we had warm clothes for the winter, bedding, blankets on the beds. We didn't have indoor plumbing. We couldn't didn't have a stove and couldn't cook our own food, but we would just go down the street to a cafe to eat every day. But it was not a bad life in Constanza.

[Assistant] And what specifically was your job there or what did you decide to get involved with in Constanza?

[User] In Costanza, again, I started working with first with youth groups and I would take them hiking in the mountains.

[Assistant] And were the groups already formed or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK.

[Assistant] I have a question. What was the impetus for you to think about chickens in the first place? Was it you originally said something about?

[User] We got chicken training.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In Puerto Rico, part of our community development training was how to grow chickens, raise chickens. And so I was trained in how to vaccinate them, feed them, keep rats away. And how even how to kill the chicken humanely and not have them flop around and things like that. So I learned all of that in the Peace Corps before I started the chicken clubs.

[Assistant] So it sounds like at least some of your training was quite relevant and useful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got chicken training.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In Puerto Rico, part of our community development training was how to grow chickens, raise chickens. And so I was trained in how to vaccinate them, feed them, keep rats away. And how even how to kill the chicken humanely and not have them flop around and things like that. So I learned all of that in the Peace Corps before I started the chicken clubs.

[Assistant] So it sounds like at least some of your training was quite relevant and useful.

[User] That was, yes. I appreciated that.

[Assistant] It's interesting to hear some of the beginnings of this project because I'll tell you later about the history. In both situations, apart from the work, did you have much interaction with Dominicans in more of an informal capacity or social capacity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They didn't like him. I heard all kinds of stories about him, about how he and his family rounded up all the cattle they could that belonged to other people and took them out on boats. And then they sell the boats over to Spain, and so they basically, they stole the wealth from the country when they went. His Trujillo's family, sons I guess. And then there was a man elected as president, well, very soon after that. And then there was a military coup that overthrew him and I was there. We were there for all of that and there was a curfew. And we were, all the Peace Corps volunteers were restricted during the curfew. I would still go out, but I'd have to sneak down to this house where I would play cards with another family but try not to get caught by the people enforcing the curfew. So things like that happened.

[Assistant] How did things change over time? You said you had some difficulty learning the language, but over time your Spanish?

[User] I never perfected it, but I could learn enough that I could communicate with the people, whatever I needed to do. But that is a very, very basic level of Spanish.

[Assistant] But it allowed you to do the type of work the organizing.

[User] Yeah, I could. I learned enough that I could communicate with the people I was working with. But I never became fluent. I'm not good with languages.

[Assistant] What did you do during vacation time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never perfected it, but I could learn enough that I could communicate with the people, whatever I needed to do. But that is a very, very basic level of Spanish.

[Assistant] But it allowed you to do the type of work the organizing.

[User] Yeah, I could. I learned enough that I could communicate with the people I was working with. But I never became fluent. I'm not good with languages.

[Assistant] What did you do during vacation time?

[User] Oh. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, I met a girl and I would go back during vacation to Puerto Rico and visit her. Or I would go to Haiti and spend time in Haiti. So those two things is what I would do during vacation time. I wound up marrying the girl. She's my wife now. Fifty-five years in December.

[Assistant] Congratulations. You were restricted from going back to the U.S., I believe, during your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I could. I learned enough that I could communicate with the people I was working with. But I never became fluent. I'm not good with languages.

[Assistant] What did you do during vacation time?

[User] Oh. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, I met a girl and I would go back during vacation to Puerto Rico and visit her. Or I would go to Haiti and spend time in Haiti. So those two things is what I would do during vacation time. I wound up marrying the girl. She's my wife now. Fifty-five years in December.

[Assistant] Congratulations. You were restricted from going back to the U.S., I believe, during your time.

[User] Right, we could not go back to the U.S.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico was considered legitimate. I did the same.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, I met a girl and I would go back during vacation to Puerto Rico and visit her. Or I would go to Haiti and spend time in Haiti. So those two things is what I would do during vacation time. I wound up marrying the girl. She's my wife now. Fifty-five years in December.

[Assistant] Congratulations. You were restricted from going back to the U.S., I believe, during your time.

[User] Right, we could not go back to the U.S.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico was considered legitimate. I did the same.

[User] Oh go, we could go to Puerto Rico, not the U.S. In fact, I think we had volunteers who went to Florida, and when they came back to the Dominican Republic they were sent home.

[Assistant] Looking back at your service, what do you feel were your main accomplishments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, we could not go back to the U.S.

[Assistant] Puerto Rico was considered legitimate. I did the same.

[User] Oh go, we could go to Puerto Rico, not the U.S. In fact, I think we had volunteers who went to Florida, and when they came back to the Dominican Republic they were sent home.

[Assistant] Looking back at your service, what do you feel were your main accomplishments?

[User] Accomplishments? That's hard to say. Well, I think what we're trying to do is give the people a good impression of Americans, and I hope that the people in Constanza enjoyed the washing centers, the wells, the ovens. My partner and his original partner had helped the Dominicans build a bridge across the creek, which was still in use. I hope the chicken group prospered. But I don't know. And the goodwill I think that we tried to establish would be the major accomplishments. But did I accomplish anything permanent? Probably not.

[Assistant] What about lessons learned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask if we could [talk about] your childhood and your education before you met your ex-husband Jerry [Gerald P.] Carr.

[User] We went to the same high school, that’s where I met him. We dated all through college, and then we were married after we both graduated from college. He went to University of Southern California [Los Angeles] and I went to Cal State at Long Beach. That began the adventure of moving all over the country, which we did.\n\n I was born in Pomona, California, and grew up in southern California in Riverside and Santa Ana. What about my childhood? I skipped the fifth grade. That was a big trauma.

[Assistant] That’s unusual.

[User] Yes. They don’t do that anymore, I don’t think. It wasn’t a good idea, because I felt like I missed the whole year. I was younger than everybody else in my class. I was 16 when I graduated from high school, and I was 20 when I graduated from college. It wasn’t because I took extra courses, it was just that skipping a grade that put me up there.\n\n I don’t know how much you want about my family. I have one sister, and she was horse-crazy, so she had a horse, and my dad had a horse, and they got me a horse. I didn’t like it. It was too big and too unpredictable. I never got into the horsy thing. Gee, I don’t know what to say about my childhood.

[Assistant] That’s okay. You mentioned that you and Jerry met in high school and you dated all through college. You knew he was going to join the military?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to the same high school, that’s where I met him. We dated all through college, and then we were married after we both graduated from college. He went to University of Southern California [Los Angeles] and I went to Cal State at Long Beach. That began the adventure of moving all over the country, which we did.\n\n I was born in Pomona, California, and grew up in southern California in Riverside and Santa Ana. What about my childhood? I skipped the fifth grade. That was a big trauma.

[Assistant] That’s unusual.

[User] Yes. They don’t do that anymore, I don’t think. It wasn’t a good idea, because I felt like I missed the whole year. I was younger than everybody else in my class. I was 16 when I graduated from high school, and I was 20 when I graduated from college. It wasn’t because I took extra courses, it was just that skipping a grade that put me up there.\n\n I don’t know how much you want about my family. I have one sister, and she was horse-crazy, so she had a horse, and my dad had a horse, and they got me a horse. I didn’t like it. It was too big and too unpredictable. I never got into the horsy thing. Gee, I don’t know what to say about my childhood.

[Assistant] That’s okay. You mentioned that you and Jerry met in high school and you dated all through college. You knew he was going to join the military?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of the idea of becoming a military spouse?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They don’t do that anymore, I don’t think. It wasn’t a good idea, because I felt like I missed the whole year. I was younger than everybody else in my class. I was 16 when I graduated from high school, and I was 20 when I graduated from college. It wasn’t because I took extra courses, it was just that skipping a grade that put me up there.\n\n I don’t know how much you want about my family. I have one sister, and she was horse-crazy, so she had a horse, and my dad had a horse, and they got me a horse. I didn’t like it. It was too big and too unpredictable. I never got into the horsy thing. Gee, I don’t know what to say about my childhood.

[Assistant] That’s okay. You mentioned that you and Jerry met in high school and you dated all through college. You knew he was going to join the military?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of the idea of becoming a military spouse?

[User] I didn’t think anything about it really. The spouse part was more important than the military part to me.

[Assistant] What do you mean by that, the spouse part was more important to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you think of the idea of becoming a military spouse?

[User] I didn’t think anything about it really. The spouse part was more important than the military part to me.

[Assistant] What do you mean by that, the spouse part was more important to you?

[User] I didn’t care if he was a plumber. I didn’t care what he was going to do, just that I could be there too.

[Assistant] You traveled all around the world, you mentioned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t think anything about it really. The spouse part was more important than the military part to me.

[Assistant] What do you mean by that, the spouse part was more important to you?

[User] I didn’t care if he was a plumber. I didn’t care what he was going to do, just that I could be there too.

[Assistant] You traveled all around the world, you mentioned.

[User] We didn’t travel around the world. As a Marine pilot, they didn’t get to take their families with them overseas. They went for like 11 or 13 months, and the wives and kids stayed back here, so we moved around the United States a lot but we didn’t move to any foreign countries. We lived in New Bern, North Carolina, Buford, South Carolina, Pensacola, Florida, Cherry Point, North Carolina. Mostly in the South. We never did get to El Toro, [California] which was in our hometown. That was the Marine base outside Santa Ana. We never got stationed there. We just roamed the country until he came here. That was obviously a permanent move.

[Assistant] While you were moving around, you had quite the pack of kids. You ended up having two sets of twins, six kids in total.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t care if he was a plumber. I didn’t care what he was going to do, just that I could be there too.

[Assistant] You traveled all around the world, you mentioned.

[User] We didn’t travel around the world. As a Marine pilot, they didn’t get to take their families with them overseas. They went for like 11 or 13 months, and the wives and kids stayed back here, so we moved around the United States a lot but we didn’t move to any foreign countries. We lived in New Bern, North Carolina, Buford, South Carolina, Pensacola, Florida, Cherry Point, North Carolina. Mostly in the South. We never did get to El Toro, [California] which was in our hometown. That was the Marine base outside Santa Ana. We never got stationed there. We just roamed the country until he came here. That was obviously a permanent move.

[Assistant] While you were moving around, you had quite the pack of kids. You ended up having two sets of twins, six kids in total.

[User] Yes, two sets of twins and two singles. I think I had two sets of three really. I had a single and twins, and then I had a little respite, and then I had a single and twins again. When [we] came out here, Jerry came out first. We were stationed in Tustin, California, and he came out early, because he had to report, and school wasn’t out yet, so I stayed until school was out and we could get moved.\n\n That was quite a wild trip, because I had six kids in a station wagon that didn’t have air-conditioning. It had air-conditioning in the front, but it wasn’t like cars today that have air-conditioning all around. It was hot, and it was pretty terrible. Our next-door neighbor had a daughter that just graduated from high school, so she came with me. She helped me.\n\n That was a wild and woolly trip. I came through—is it Columbus?

[Assistant] In New Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t travel around the world. As a Marine pilot, they didn’t get to take their families with them overseas. They went for like 11 or 13 months, and the wives and kids stayed back here, so we moved around the United States a lot but we didn’t move to any foreign countries. We lived in New Bern, North Carolina, Buford, South Carolina, Pensacola, Florida, Cherry Point, North Carolina. Mostly in the South. We never did get to El Toro, [California] which was in our hometown. That was the Marine base outside Santa Ana. We never got stationed there. We just roamed the country until he came here. That was obviously a permanent move.

[Assistant] While you were moving around, you had quite the pack of kids. You ended up having two sets of twins, six kids in total.

[User] Yes, two sets of twins and two singles. I think I had two sets of three really. I had a single and twins, and then I had a little respite, and then I had a single and twins again. When [we] came out here, Jerry came out first. We were stationed in Tustin, California, and he came out early, because he had to report, and school wasn’t out yet, so I stayed until school was out and we could get moved.\n\n That was quite a wild trip, because I had six kids in a station wagon that didn’t have air-conditioning. It had air-conditioning in the front, but it wasn’t like cars today that have air-conditioning all around. It was hot, and it was pretty terrible. Our next-door neighbor had a daughter that just graduated from high school, so she came with me. She helped me.\n\n That was a wild and woolly trip. I came through—is it Columbus?

[Assistant] In New Mexico?

[User] No. Just outside of—on the way to Austin. Columbia?

[Assistant] No, it’s Columbus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Just outside of—on the way to Austin. Columbia?

[Assistant] No, it’s Columbus.

[User] Columbus. We got there and I saw that there were rain clouds, big rain clouds, over Houston. I thought well, I know which direction the Space Center is, so I took off on the farm road, because we had our luggage on top of the car. I didn’t want to go through a rainstorm. I went—as the crow flies— in the general direction of NASA, and it was in the country. There was a little farmer’s marketplace on the corner, and I stopped and asked, “How do you get to NASA from here?” They said, “You can’t get there from here.” I thought, “This is Texas. This is what I’m going to live in for the next few years.”\n\n We managed to find our way to NASA and stay out of the rain. Then we had to stay in a motel for a few days because our house wasn’t ready yet. Being in the military, we lived in all sorts of housing, and some of it wasn’t too great. One was called Splinterville, if that gives you a flavor of what the place was like.

[Assistant] Was that a name given it by the enlisted guys?

[User] By the Marines, yes.

[Assistant] Were you following the space program at all when you were in the military?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Columbus. We got there and I saw that there were rain clouds, big rain clouds, over Houston. I thought well, I know which direction the Space Center is, so I took off on the farm road, because we had our luggage on top of the car. I didn’t want to go through a rainstorm. I went—as the crow flies— in the general direction of NASA, and it was in the country. There was a little farmer’s marketplace on the corner, and I stopped and asked, “How do you get to NASA from here?” They said, “You can’t get there from here.” I thought, “This is Texas. This is what I’m going to live in for the next few years.”\n\n We managed to find our way to NASA and stay out of the rain. Then we had to stay in a motel for a few days because our house wasn’t ready yet. Being in the military, we lived in all sorts of housing, and some of it wasn’t too great. One was called Splinterville, if that gives you a flavor of what the place was like.

[Assistant] Was that a name given it by the enlisted guys?

[User] By the Marines, yes.

[Assistant] Were you following the space program at all when you were in the military?

[User] I was. I guess he was too. A friend of ours had applied for the third group of astronauts. He didn’t make it. We didn’t know anybody else, because there weren’t very many Marines. There was John [H.] Glenn and there was C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams, who was killed later in a plane crash. Those were the only two Marines here when we got here. There were 19 in our group. It was a big group. Let me think.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a couple of things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By the Marines, yes.

[Assistant] Were you following the space program at all when you were in the military?

[User] I was. I guess he was too. A friend of ours had applied for the third group of astronauts. He didn’t make it. We didn’t know anybody else, because there weren’t very many Marines. There was John [H.] Glenn and there was C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams, who was killed later in a plane crash. Those were the only two Marines here when we got here. There were 19 in our group. It was a big group. Let me think.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a couple of things.

[User] Yes. Ask me.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about the interview before Jerry came out. It’s my understanding that the spouses also had to be interviewed before they would make an offer. Do you remember that interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. I guess he was too. A friend of ours had applied for the third group of astronauts. He didn’t make it. We didn’t know anybody else, because there weren’t very many Marines. There was John [H.] Glenn and there was C.C. [Clifton C.] Williams, who was killed later in a plane crash. Those were the only two Marines here when we got here. There were 19 in our group. It was a big group. Let me think.

[Assistant] Let me ask you a couple of things.

[User] Yes. Ask me.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about the interview before Jerry came out. It’s my understanding that the spouses also had to be interviewed before they would make an offer. Do you remember that interview?

[User] Oh yes. I was so gung ho, it was just ridiculous. I wanted to come here as bad as he did. When they came to talk to me, I was going to be the perfect little military wife. When the last twins were born, he left for a 13-month tour in Japan, and I had the second set of twins 2 months later. I had these babies and four other kids and I was by myself, except my sister lived nearby. That was quite an experience. I never want to do that again.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the questions that I thought were kind of stupid, like, “How will you feel if your husband goes to Mars?” I thought, “What do you think we’re applying for? We’re not applying for a trip to Hawaii.” I said I would be very happy if he got a trip to Mars. That was the line of questioning, about how I was going to respond to things. Like I told you, I was pretty gung ho, so I was right there with Jerry, whatever he wants to do, I’ll be there with him.

[Assistant] Did they ask any really personal questions of the spouses?

[User] No, they didn’t ask personal questions there, but there was a questionnaire that he had to fill out that asked, “How many times did you have sex in a week?” Which I thought was a little intrusive. We pondered over that one, because we didn’t want to give a number that looked like too much and we didn’t want to give a number that looked like too little. We had a hard time with that question.

[Assistant] Just kind of picked the middle?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s an odd question to ask.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they didn’t ask personal questions there, but there was a questionnaire that he had to fill out that asked, “How many times did you have sex in a week?” Which I thought was a little intrusive. We pondered over that one, because we didn’t want to give a number that looked like too much and we didn’t want to give a number that looked like too little. We had a hard time with that question.

[Assistant] Just kind of picked the middle?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s an odd question to ask.

[User] It was an odd question to ask. I can’t even think to this day why they asked that. It’s a mystery. I thought I did really well on the interview. I guess I must have done okay, because we made it.

[Assistant] I understand that he came home and told you on April Fools’ Day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That’s an odd question to ask.

[User] It was an odd question to ask. I can’t even think to this day why they asked that. It’s a mystery. I thought I did really well on the interview. I guess I must have done okay, because we made it.

[Assistant] I understand that he came home and told you on April Fools’ Day.

[User] I don’t remember that. I don’t remember that, if it was April Fools’ Day or not. I remember he came home. I remember I was stirring a pot of spaghetti sauce, and he came up and said, “Guess who called me today.” I said, “I don’t know, who called you today?” He said, “Alan [B.] Shepard.” He said, “They accepted me.”\n\n We were just ecstatic, and we wanted to tell the kids, but we weren’t supposed to say anything for a few days. I don’t know why. I guess they wanted to announce it.

[Assistant] What did you think about the idea of moving to Texas, being a California girl?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an odd question to ask. I can’t even think to this day why they asked that. It’s a mystery. I thought I did really well on the interview. I guess I must have done okay, because we made it.

[Assistant] I understand that he came home and told you on April Fools’ Day.

[User] I don’t remember that. I don’t remember that, if it was April Fools’ Day or not. I remember he came home. I remember I was stirring a pot of spaghetti sauce, and he came up and said, “Guess who called me today.” I said, “I don’t know, who called you today?” He said, “Alan [B.] Shepard.” He said, “They accepted me.”\n\n We were just ecstatic, and we wanted to tell the kids, but we weren’t supposed to say anything for a few days. I don’t know why. I guess they wanted to announce it.

[Assistant] What did you think about the idea of moving to Texas, being a California girl?

[User] We had lived in Kingsville, Texas, when he was in flight training, so I had a speaking acquaintance with Texas. I was less than thrilled over the topography here. There’s no mountains; there’s no hills, unless you get a little over farther toward Kerrville. I wasn’t used to that. In California you got mountains all around, almost everywhere you go.

[Assistant] Did Jerry send you any pictures when he got here of what you might expect of the area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was both. Annie Glenn told me, “He’ll never be yours alone again, because he’s going to belong to everybody. He’s not going to be just yours.” I had no idea what she meant until later. She talked about the area, because there weren’t any stores around really, and there wasn’t a mall or anything like that. There was just the Piggly Wiggly and that was about it. She told me where she got her hair cut, and she told me where to go for grocery shopping, because we didn’t have a commissary yet.

[Assistant] No commissary up at Ellington [Air Force Base]?

[User] The commissary was at Ellington when we finally got one. Her daughter was the same age as the next-door neighbor girl that drove out here with me, and she stayed for the summer, Becky did. Annie got Lyn, her daughter, together with Becky and showed her around a little bit, because they were the same age. That was just really nice of her to do that for a girl that she didn’t even know. Becky was here for the summer, so she and Lyn got to know each other fairly well. But that was a Marine welcome. The rest of them didn’t seem to hang together like that. I don’t know the reason for that, but it seemed like the Marines stuck together.\n\n Beth Williams, C.C.’s wife, also invited me for coffee. That wasn’t easy to do because I had six kids at home. As long as Becky was there I could get out a little bit.

[Assistant] In the next few months did you get a chance to go over to NASA and tour and maybe take the kids over there?

[User] They took us on a tour and took our picture.

[Assistant] I think I’ve seen one of those photos of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you probably have. Took our picture, and then that was it. Nobody talked to us about what we could expect in terms of their work and their schedules. Nobody told us anything actually. We didn’t hear anything from NASA. I always thought that was really strange, because from the outside it looked like such a high-profile job that you would have thought somebody was driving the ship. It didn’t appear that anybody was, except when we finally had our first wives’ coffee at the Lakewood Yacht Club. That was several months after we got here when we had that.\n\n A little bit of the military background rubbed off on them. There weren’t very many civilian astronauts. I think Neil [A.] Armstrong, and I can’t remember who else was a civilian astronaut. We had the first coffee at the Lakewood Yacht Club. Marge Slayton decided that there were too many of us to have at each other’s house, to have a coffee in your home, so we were going to have it at the Lakewood Yacht Club from then on. That’s what we did. That was pretty much the extent of the welcome aboard that we got.\n\n It was pretty much limited to where you got to know people in the program and nobody else. You also were pretty much singled out in your neighborhood. Everybody knew where the astronauts lived. In fact you’re still doing that. You want to talk to [my daughter] Jennifer because the Aldrins and the Lovells lived in her house.

[Assistant] Oh, really? I didn’t know that.

[User] Oh, that wasn’t you?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Oh, that must have been the lady from KPRC.

[Assistant]
I was going to say that I know the—was it the Chronicle? Somebody had done a story. Does she live in Timber Cove?

I just read one. It came out in the Galveston Daily News. It’s the Coastal magazine. They had pictures of you and your family, and they mentioned you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that wasn’t you?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Oh, that must have been the lady from KPRC.

[Assistant]
I was going to say that I know the—was it the Chronicle? Somebody had done a story. Does she live in Timber Cove?

I just read one. It came out in the Galveston Daily News. It’s the Coastal magazine. They had pictures of you and your family, and they mentioned you.

[User] Jennifer bought a house up in the front of El Lago, and she found out after she bought it that the Aldrins had lived there when they first came when they were waiting for their house to be built.

[Assistant]
I think that was the story I read. I didn’t read the whole thing but it sounds familiar.

It was Coastal magazine, which comes in our newspaper once a month. I’m not sure exactly how they’re related. I also see it in Galveston County sometimes. You go in restaurants, and it’ll be in there. It’s a separate magazine. It’s like a little thick magazine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that must have been the lady from KPRC.

[Assistant]
I was going to say that I know the—was it the Chronicle? Somebody had done a story. Does she live in Timber Cove?

I just read one. It came out in the Galveston Daily News. It’s the Coastal magazine. They had pictures of you and your family, and they mentioned you.

[User] Jennifer bought a house up in the front of El Lago, and she found out after she bought it that the Aldrins had lived there when they first came when they were waiting for their house to be built.

[Assistant]
I think that was the story I read. I didn’t read the whole thing but it sounds familiar.

It was Coastal magazine, which comes in our newspaper once a month. I’m not sure exactly how they’re related. I also see it in Galveston County sometimes. You go in restaurants, and it’ll be in there. It’s a separate magazine. It’s like a little thick magazine.

[User] I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] I wish I’d brought it with me, I should have brought it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jennifer bought a house up in the front of El Lago, and she found out after she bought it that the Aldrins had lived there when they first came when they were waiting for their house to be built.

[Assistant]
I think that was the story I read. I didn’t read the whole thing but it sounds familiar.

It was Coastal magazine, which comes in our newspaper once a month. I’m not sure exactly how they’re related. I also see it in Galveston County sometimes. You go in restaurants, and it’ll be in there. It’s a separate magazine. It’s like a little thick magazine.

[User] I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] I wish I’d brought it with me, I should have brought it.

[User] Yes, I’d like to see it.

[Assistant]
If we come back I’ll bring it.

If we come back, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll be darned.

[Assistant] I wish I’d brought it with me, I should have brought it.

[User] Yes, I’d like to see it.

[Assistant]
If we come back I’ll bring it.

If we come back, yes.

[User] The Aldrins lived there while their house was being built, and the Lovells lived there while their house was being built. When we have anything in El Lago that has to do with the astronauts, they put a sign in their yard that says, “Buzz Aldrin and Jim Lovell lived here,” or something like that. They weren’t there when we were there. They were there before we were there, and they were already living in their new houses when we got there.

[Assistant] Tell us about that first coffee. What did you want to know? What did you ask? What [information] did Marge Slayton and some of the other wives offer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I’d like to see it.

[Assistant]
If we come back I’ll bring it.

If we come back, yes.

[User] The Aldrins lived there while their house was being built, and the Lovells lived there while their house was being built. When we have anything in El Lago that has to do with the astronauts, they put a sign in their yard that says, “Buzz Aldrin and Jim Lovell lived here,” or something like that. They weren’t there when we were there. They were there before we were there, and they were already living in their new houses when we got there.

[Assistant] Tell us about that first coffee. What did you want to know? What did you ask? What [information] did Marge Slayton and some of the other wives offer?

[User] I don’t know that we asked much of anything. We were pretty well snowed by the fact that we were meeting these women that we’d seen only on TV. There was somebody in our group that asked me who they were. I thought, “You’re a pilot’s wife, and you don’t know who the astronaut wives are? Come on, how lame.”\n\n We didn’t ask many questions. We might have individually but not in a group. We didn’t ask any questions that I can recall. We talked about how we were going to get together. They had had the last two Gemini flights, and the last flight while we were there [in Houston]. We had just arrived. They had the last Gemini flight, so we got to go to the splashdown party and some things like that. We were included. It’s not like we were excluded from anything, but they just weren’t doing anything.

[Assistant] What about the Life contract? How did you find out about that? Or was that something that Jerry handled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Aldrins lived there while their house was being built, and the Lovells lived there while their house was being built. When we have anything in El Lago that has to do with the astronauts, they put a sign in their yard that says, “Buzz Aldrin and Jim Lovell lived here,” or something like that. They weren’t there when we were there. They were there before we were there, and they were already living in their new houses when we got there.

[Assistant] Tell us about that first coffee. What did you want to know? What did you ask? What [information] did Marge Slayton and some of the other wives offer?

[User] I don’t know that we asked much of anything. We were pretty well snowed by the fact that we were meeting these women that we’d seen only on TV. There was somebody in our group that asked me who they were. I thought, “You’re a pilot’s wife, and you don’t know who the astronaut wives are? Come on, how lame.”\n\n We didn’t ask many questions. We might have individually but not in a group. We didn’t ask any questions that I can recall. We talked about how we were going to get together. They had had the last two Gemini flights, and the last flight while we were there [in Houston]. We had just arrived. They had the last Gemini flight, so we got to go to the splashdown party and some things like that. We were included. It’s not like we were excluded from anything, but they just weren’t doing anything.

[Assistant] What about the Life contract? How did you find out about that? Or was that something that Jerry handled?

[User] Oh, he handled it, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense of what the expectations were for you and your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know that we asked much of anything. We were pretty well snowed by the fact that we were meeting these women that we’d seen only on TV. There was somebody in our group that asked me who they were. I thought, “You’re a pilot’s wife, and you don’t know who the astronaut wives are? Come on, how lame.”\n\n We didn’t ask many questions. We might have individually but not in a group. We didn’t ask any questions that I can recall. We talked about how we were going to get together. They had had the last two Gemini flights, and the last flight while we were there [in Houston]. We had just arrived. They had the last Gemini flight, so we got to go to the splashdown party and some things like that. We were included. It’s not like we were excluded from anything, but they just weren’t doing anything.

[Assistant] What about the Life contract? How did you find out about that? Or was that something that Jerry handled?

[User] Oh, he handled it, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense of what the expectations were for you and your family?

[User] No. It didn’t take you long to figure out who they really wanted to talk to. They really wanted to talk to and take pictures of the Original Seven and some of the others. But they weren’t interested in the Original 19.\n\n We were kind of on our own. I think we diluted the amount of money that we were getting for that by 19 more people. We diluted that contract almost by 50 percent. It didn’t really affect us, because nobody wanted to talk to us anyway. That was just kind of a nice freebie.

[Assistant] I was thinking about El Lago, and a lot of people have told us how unique these neighborhoods were. How there were a lot of different traditions that people established during the ’60s. They would have block parties and really know their neighbors. Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, he handled it, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense of what the expectations were for you and your family?

[User] No. It didn’t take you long to figure out who they really wanted to talk to. They really wanted to talk to and take pictures of the Original Seven and some of the others. But they weren’t interested in the Original 19.\n\n We were kind of on our own. I think we diluted the amount of money that we were getting for that by 19 more people. We diluted that contract almost by 50 percent. It didn’t really affect us, because nobody wanted to talk to us anyway. That was just kind of a nice freebie.

[Assistant] I was thinking about El Lago, and a lot of people have told us how unique these neighborhoods were. How there were a lot of different traditions that people established during the ’60s. They would have block parties and really know their neighbors. Can you talk about that?

[User] El Lago, I thought, was more of a family-oriented area. We thought of Nassau Bay as the party people. That was the only two neighborhoods that we had. The Williamses lived in Dickinson and the Shepards lived in Houston and the Slaytons lived in Friendswood. They were the only outlying people. The rest of us pretty much lived in these two areas.

[Assistant] You mentioned people knew where the astronauts lived. Were there a lot of tour buses coming by trying to figure out who lived where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It didn’t take you long to figure out who they really wanted to talk to. They really wanted to talk to and take pictures of the Original Seven and some of the others. But they weren’t interested in the Original 19.\n\n We were kind of on our own. I think we diluted the amount of money that we were getting for that by 19 more people. We diluted that contract almost by 50 percent. It didn’t really affect us, because nobody wanted to talk to us anyway. That was just kind of a nice freebie.

[Assistant] I was thinking about El Lago, and a lot of people have told us how unique these neighborhoods were. How there were a lot of different traditions that people established during the ’60s. They would have block parties and really know their neighbors. Can you talk about that?

[User] El Lago, I thought, was more of a family-oriented area. We thought of Nassau Bay as the party people. That was the only two neighborhoods that we had. The Williamses lived in Dickinson and the Shepards lived in Houston and the Slaytons lived in Friendswood. They were the only outlying people. The rest of us pretty much lived in these two areas.

[Assistant] You mentioned people knew where the astronauts lived. Were there a lot of tour buses coming by trying to figure out who lived where?

[User] There might have been in the earlier days, and I think there were. But we didn’t experience that really. You have to realize that we doubled the size of the group really. A lot of things that were true for the first three groups were not true for us. We didn’t experience it the same way.

[Assistant] On your street you mentioned getting to know everybody. Were there people from outside of NASA who were your neighbors, or were you primarily with engineers and scientists, other folks who came?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] El Lago, I thought, was more of a family-oriented area. We thought of Nassau Bay as the party people. That was the only two neighborhoods that we had. The Williamses lived in Dickinson and the Shepards lived in Houston and the Slaytons lived in Friendswood. They were the only outlying people. The rest of us pretty much lived in these two areas.

[Assistant] You mentioned people knew where the astronauts lived. Were there a lot of tour buses coming by trying to figure out who lived where?

[User] There might have been in the earlier days, and I think there were. But we didn’t experience that really. You have to realize that we doubled the size of the group really. A lot of things that were true for the first three groups were not true for us. We didn’t experience it the same way.

[Assistant] On your street you mentioned getting to know everybody. Were there people from outside of NASA who were your neighbors, or were you primarily with engineers and scientists, other folks who came?

[User] Yes, there were a lot of NASA people there. On our particular street there wasn’t anybody in the immediate surrounding houses. The Evanses lived around the corner from us and the Anderses lived right in back of them, and the Dukes lived next to the Anderses, so we had that little enclave of people. Then farther on down the Eiseles, the Bormans, and the Staffords lived sort of together in a little area. Neil Armstrong and Ed White lived next to each other.\n\n My oldest son Jeff was pretty aware of things that were going on, for a kid, and he still remembers that stuff. He remembers stuff I don’t remember. He’s very articulate, so he’s a really good one to talk to. He’s still dealing with the astronauts in the job that he and Gwen [Griffin] do.

[Assistant] What street did you guys live on in El Lago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were a lot of NASA people there. On our particular street there wasn’t anybody in the immediate surrounding houses. The Evanses lived around the corner from us and the Anderses lived right in back of them, and the Dukes lived next to the Anderses, so we had that little enclave of people. Then farther on down the Eiseles, the Bormans, and the Staffords lived sort of together in a little area. Neil Armstrong and Ed White lived next to each other.\n\n My oldest son Jeff was pretty aware of things that were going on, for a kid, and he still remembers that stuff. He remembers stuff I don’t remember. He’s very articulate, so he’s a really good one to talk to. He’s still dealing with the astronauts in the job that he and Gwen [Griffin] do.

[Assistant] What street did you guys live on in El Lago?

[User] Tallowood.

[Assistant] Tallowood.

[User] We lived right close to the lake, Taylor Lake. We lived two or three houses from it.

[Assistant] Did you take full advantage of the water in the area? Did you do any boating or water-skiing, anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tallowood.

[Assistant] Tallowood.

[User] We lived right close to the lake, Taylor Lake. We lived two or three houses from it.

[Assistant] Did you take full advantage of the water in the area? Did you do any boating or water-skiing, anything like that?

[User] At first the kids went crabbing a lot. You could see the boat ramp from my front yard. When they’d go down there, I told the kids, I said, “If somebody falls in, don’t come running home to get help. Find a stick or something that you can put out there and they can hold on to.” They came back one day, and somebody had fallen in and was all wet. I said, “What did you do? What did they do?” Jamee said, “Run in circles, scream and shout.” I thought oh good, there goes my—.

[Assistant] So much for your training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lived right close to the lake, Taylor Lake. We lived two or three houses from it.

[Assistant] Did you take full advantage of the water in the area? Did you do any boating or water-skiing, anything like that?

[User] At first the kids went crabbing a lot. You could see the boat ramp from my front yard. When they’d go down there, I told the kids, I said, “If somebody falls in, don’t come running home to get help. Find a stick or something that you can put out there and they can hold on to.” They came back one day, and somebody had fallen in and was all wet. I said, “What did you do? What did they do?” Jamee said, “Run in circles, scream and shout.” I thought oh good, there goes my—.

[Assistant] So much for your training.

[User] I had another thing similar to that happen. The upstairs was set back. It didn’t cover the whole downstairs, it was set back, so you could climb out of every bedroom and get on the roof. Our master bedroom was downstairs, and I thought, “If we have a fire they’re going to all have to come down the stairs, and maybe they won’t be able to.” So I showed them how to climb out the window and get on a tree and climb down. We called it the fire escape tree. I learned later that they used it for all sorts of other purposes.

[Assistant] Especially as they got older?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall any of that. This thing about the astronauts’ church is a fallacy. It was never called the astronauts’ church until recently.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Because it wasn’t the astronauts’ church. The Methodist church was the astronauts’ church. That’s where most of them went, to the Methodist in Seabrook, which isn’t there anymore. It certainly wasn’t our church. We just had John Glenn and Jerry and Buzz [Aldrin]. We had Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett for a little while. Somehow or other the presbytery got this, it’s the astronauts’ church fallacy, and it just ticks me off, because it wasn’t. People who didn’t know were the ones who started that rumor.

[Assistant] I guess it’s because of the Lunar Communion and Apollo 11, I suppose.

[User] Yes, the presbytery is making a big deal about it.

[Assistant] Oh yes. That was a big push. When we talked to Jan Evans, she mentioned that she got to see more of Ron [Ronald E. Evans] than she ever did when he was in the military. She said she felt like she was having Friday night affairs is what she called them. Did you have a chance to see more of your husband, you think, than you did when he was [in the Marines].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it wasn’t the astronauts’ church. The Methodist church was the astronauts’ church. That’s where most of them went, to the Methodist in Seabrook, which isn’t there anymore. It certainly wasn’t our church. We just had John Glenn and Jerry and Buzz [Aldrin]. We had Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett for a little while. Somehow or other the presbytery got this, it’s the astronauts’ church fallacy, and it just ticks me off, because it wasn’t. People who didn’t know were the ones who started that rumor.

[Assistant] I guess it’s because of the Lunar Communion and Apollo 11, I suppose.

[User] Yes, the presbytery is making a big deal about it.

[Assistant] Oh yes. That was a big push. When we talked to Jan Evans, she mentioned that she got to see more of Ron [Ronald E. Evans] than she ever did when he was in the military. She said she felt like she was having Friday night affairs is what she called them. Did you have a chance to see more of your husband, you think, than you did when he was [in the Marines].

[User] No, I don’t feel like I saw more of him. I don’t. I feel like I saw less of him. He was traveling, it seemed like every week. Jan is a very optimistic person, very positive. I don’t recall Friday night being anything other than Friday night.

[Assistant] You seemed pretty busy as you pointed out, with six kids, and then you had your father living with you. How did you juggle all of those things—the household, the kids, cooking, cleaning? I imagine you were doing the lawn care, all of those things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the presbytery is making a big deal about it.

[Assistant] Oh yes. That was a big push. When we talked to Jan Evans, she mentioned that she got to see more of Ron [Ronald E. Evans] than she ever did when he was in the military. She said she felt like she was having Friday night affairs is what she called them. Did you have a chance to see more of your husband, you think, than you did when he was [in the Marines].

[User] No, I don’t feel like I saw more of him. I don’t. I feel like I saw less of him. He was traveling, it seemed like every week. Jan is a very optimistic person, very positive. I don’t recall Friday night being anything other than Friday night.

[Assistant] You seemed pretty busy as you pointed out, with six kids, and then you had your father living with you. How did you juggle all of those things—the household, the kids, cooking, cleaning? I imagine you were doing the lawn care, all of those things.

[User] I don’t know how I did it. You just do whatever has to be done. You don’t question how am I going to do this, because you need every breath and every second to figure out how to address the issues in your home.\n\n We had built a room on the back for my dad, so he could get around the downstairs okay. We built a ramp outside the back door so he could get outside onto the patio. He used to wheel his chair over to the neighbors for coffee some mornings. He made friends in the neighborhood too. But it was a busy time, that’s for sure.

[Assistant] How much did you know about what Jerry was doing? How much did he share with you? Or you just kind of knew well, he’s working toward a Moon landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t feel like I saw more of him. I don’t. I feel like I saw less of him. He was traveling, it seemed like every week. Jan is a very optimistic person, very positive. I don’t recall Friday night being anything other than Friday night.

[Assistant] You seemed pretty busy as you pointed out, with six kids, and then you had your father living with you. How did you juggle all of those things—the household, the kids, cooking, cleaning? I imagine you were doing the lawn care, all of those things.

[User] I don’t know how I did it. You just do whatever has to be done. You don’t question how am I going to do this, because you need every breath and every second to figure out how to address the issues in your home.\n\n We had built a room on the back for my dad, so he could get around the downstairs okay. We built a ramp outside the back door so he could get outside onto the patio. He used to wheel his chair over to the neighbors for coffee some mornings. He made friends in the neighborhood too. But it was a busy time, that’s for sure.

[Assistant] How much did you know about what Jerry was doing? How much did he share with you? Or you just kind of knew well, he’s working toward a Moon landing?

[User] It was pretty general. Jerry wasn’t a big talker. I knew generally what he was doing but not specifically, until he got farther on down the line, and he finally got an assignment, a flight. Then I knew where he was going and what he was doing pretty much.

[Assistant] Did your kids have a sense of what he was working on at the time? Or they just knew he was working at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know how I did it. You just do whatever has to be done. You don’t question how am I going to do this, because you need every breath and every second to figure out how to address the issues in your home.\n\n We had built a room on the back for my dad, so he could get around the downstairs okay. We built a ramp outside the back door so he could get outside onto the patio. He used to wheel his chair over to the neighbors for coffee some mornings. He made friends in the neighborhood too. But it was a busy time, that’s for sure.

[Assistant] How much did you know about what Jerry was doing? How much did he share with you? Or you just kind of knew well, he’s working toward a Moon landing?

[User] It was pretty general. Jerry wasn’t a big talker. I knew generally what he was doing but not specifically, until he got farther on down the line, and he finally got an assignment, a flight. Then I knew where he was going and what he was doing pretty much.

[Assistant] Did your kids have a sense of what he was working on at the time? Or they just knew he was working at NASA?

[User] No, he took me out there a couple times. One time he took me out, and I got in the simulators. I docked with the command module. He kept me in the loop that way. I wanted to know as much as I could know, so I was pretty inquisitive about what was going on and who was doing what, and I tried to spy for him. I was real good at parties at standing in one group and listening to another one, because you got to hear things that you might not be able to hear otherwise.

[Assistant] Can you explain what sort of things you were spying on him for? Do you remember anything in particular that he wanted to know that you passed along to him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was pretty general. Jerry wasn’t a big talker. I knew generally what he was doing but not specifically, until he got farther on down the line, and he finally got an assignment, a flight. Then I knew where he was going and what he was doing pretty much.

[Assistant] Did your kids have a sense of what he was working on at the time? Or they just knew he was working at NASA?

[User] No, he took me out there a couple times. One time he took me out, and I got in the simulators. I docked with the command module. He kept me in the loop that way. I wanted to know as much as I could know, so I was pretty inquisitive about what was going on and who was doing what, and I tried to spy for him. I was real good at parties at standing in one group and listening to another one, because you got to hear things that you might not be able to hear otherwise.

[Assistant] Can you explain what sort of things you were spying on him for? Do you remember anything in particular that he wanted to know that you passed along to him?

[User] No. I think I just told him everything I knew, or thought I knew.

[Assistant] You mentioned Beth Williams several times. C.C. Williams ended up dying, and I understand that your family was fairly close. I wondered if you would talk about that and the support you provided each other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think I just told him everything I knew, or thought I knew.

[Assistant] You mentioned Beth Williams several times. C.C. Williams ended up dying, and I understand that your family was fairly close. I wondered if you would talk about that and the support you provided each other.

[User] When somebody was killed, when we were in the squadrons, everybody gathered at their house. We did that with Beth. We all gathered down at her house. She was a new military wife, so she hadn’t had the experience of people dying in plane crashes. She had a baby, a little toddler, and she was pregnant again.\n\n I stood back and let all the other people who were coming to see her and supporting her, because I thought, “They won’t last and they’ll go away at some point and I’ll be there.” That was my thought.\n\n We took her places with us. The military always appointed somebody from the squadron to be the go-between between the widow and the squadron. Jerry was that person for Beth, and that’s part of the reason why I got closer to Beth, because Jerry was helping her with things. She and I were friends for a long time. We didn’t really have that much in common, because she had two kids and I had six, but that was one place I could go down to and take all my six kids and not be worried about not being welcome.\n\n Another place like that was Joan Roosa’s house. I could take my six and go to Joan Roosa’s house any day of the week, and she would just be the charming Southern hostess. She’d give all the kids Popsicles, and she made daiquiris for us.

[Assistant] How many kids did she have?

[User] She had four. We had 10 kids running around there eating Popsicles and climbing trees and going out in the woods. They lived backed up to some woods too.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask about the Apollo fire. You mentioned you were kind of left hanging. You weren’t really sure what you were supposed to be doing. Was that a point though where someone asked the wives to do something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She had four. We had 10 kids running around there eating Popsicles and climbing trees and going out in the woods. They lived backed up to some woods too.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask about the Apollo fire. You mentioned you were kind of left hanging. You weren’t really sure what you were supposed to be doing. Was that a point though where someone asked the wives to do something?

[User] We did what we knew to do from the military, and that was we paid a call on each of the widows even though we didn’t know the Grissoms. But we went to their house because he was the senior officer, and that’s what we did.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about the medical care that you received from NASA. All the astronauts and their families were covered by NASA. Was that anything unique from the military? A little different?

[User] No, we always had a medical section in the military, so it was just a continuation basically.

[Assistant] Were you close with Dee [Delores B.] O’Hara?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did what we knew to do from the military, and that was we paid a call on each of the widows even though we didn’t know the Grissoms. But we went to their house because he was the senior officer, and that’s what we did.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about the medical care that you received from NASA. All the astronauts and their families were covered by NASA. Was that anything unique from the military? A little different?

[User] No, we always had a medical section in the military, so it was just a continuation basically.

[Assistant] Were you close with Dee [Delores B.] O’Hara?

[User] Everybody was, but Dee walked a very fine line. She knew more about everything than anybody else did, and she never talked. She never talked to anybody about it. She took care of my dad. They took care of my dad too, because he was a veteran. I was having to take him to the veterans’ hospital in Houston. That was hard for me because I had the six kids. They started taking care of him at the NASA dispensary, which was really an amazing help to me, because I couldn’t be running into the veterans’ hospital that often.\n\n That was pretty much the same. It was better than the military really, because the military dispensary took care of the whole base. They just took care of us.

[Assistant] You mentioned several times how you had this pack of children, that you always had to worry about where could you take them, where could you not. I wonder if you would talk about childcare in that day and age. Did you ever have anybody come over and help you besides [Becky] who came out with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody was, but Dee walked a very fine line. She knew more about everything than anybody else did, and she never talked. She never talked to anybody about it. She took care of my dad. They took care of my dad too, because he was a veteran. I was having to take him to the veterans’ hospital in Houston. That was hard for me because I had the six kids. They started taking care of him at the NASA dispensary, which was really an amazing help to me, because I couldn’t be running into the veterans’ hospital that often.\n\n That was pretty much the same. It was better than the military really, because the military dispensary took care of the whole base. They just took care of us.

[Assistant] You mentioned several times how you had this pack of children, that you always had to worry about where could you take them, where could you not. I wonder if you would talk about childcare in that day and age. Did you ever have anybody come over and help you besides [Becky] who came out with you?

[User] I had a cleaning lady that came once a week. When my dad was with me, she came twice a week. That was really about all the help I had. There weren’t a lot of babysitters around, because all the kids were pretty much the same age. We didn’t have a bunch of high school kids to babysit. We didn’t probably even have any high school kids for a while. There were nurseries, day care centers. There was one in Nassau Bay. One day I got over there with my young twins, and they locked me out of the car. I couldn’t get them out. They didn’t want to go.

[Assistant] Clearly.

[User] But I finally got them to unlock the door. In fact, my Jennifer was one of the first babysitters around there because she was the oldest, and she was babysitting age. She’d been babysitting her brothers and sisters, so she was pretty knowledgeable.

[Assistant] I bet, very trained.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a cleaning lady that came once a week. When my dad was with me, she came twice a week. That was really about all the help I had. There weren’t a lot of babysitters around, because all the kids were pretty much the same age. We didn’t have a bunch of high school kids to babysit. We didn’t probably even have any high school kids for a while. There were nurseries, day care centers. There was one in Nassau Bay. One day I got over there with my young twins, and they locked me out of the car. I couldn’t get them out. They didn’t want to go.

[Assistant] Clearly.

[User] But I finally got them to unlock the door. In fact, my Jennifer was one of the first babysitters around there because she was the oldest, and she was babysitting age. She’d been babysitting her brothers and sisters, so she was pretty knowledgeable.

[Assistant] I bet, very trained.

[User] I don’t know what we did. I can’t remember if Jennifer was old enough to leave with the rest of the kids. I think if we were going someplace in El Lago we had her be the mom, and she’s still being the mom. I overdid it.

[Assistant] Did the wives ever babysit for each other? Was that something you would ever do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I finally got them to unlock the door. In fact, my Jennifer was one of the first babysitters around there because she was the oldest, and she was babysitting age. She’d been babysitting her brothers and sisters, so she was pretty knowledgeable.

[Assistant] I bet, very trained.

[User] I don’t know what we did. I can’t remember if Jennifer was old enough to leave with the rest of the kids. I think if we were going someplace in El Lago we had her be the mom, and she’s still being the mom. I overdid it.

[Assistant] Did the wives ever babysit for each other? Was that something you would ever do?

[User] No, nobody ever wanted to trade with me.

[Assistant] Too many kids, huh?