[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never. Catch as catch can. Better salaries.

[Assistant] So that was just a good move for you then.

[User] Yes. In fact salaries were interesting, because I think when I came down here the yearly salary was something like $1,700 a year, and when I quit NASA it was closer to $70,000 a year, which is about what I'm making as a retiree out of Langley. So that's gotten an awful lot better. I remember when the salary went up to something like $2,600. That was enormous. It was fantastic. But that's all useless now. Money doesn't mean anything. Decimal points have shifted.

[Assistant] Yes, they have. What kind of hours did you have? Did your hours that you spent at the Center change after the aeronautics shifted over?

[User] I never really counted hours. When we had things to do, we did them. When we finished, we quit. I had a nominal eight-hour day of course. No Saturdays, no Sundays, 40-hour week. But I used to take stuff home and read correspondence all the time. Reports, correspondence, contractor documents, and so forth. Drawings. In fact I used to come here on the couch and get rid of piles of correspondence at a time. All interesting, to me anyhow.

[Assistant] I bet the drawings were very interesting as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never really counted hours. When we had things to do, we did them. When we finished, we quit. I had a nominal eight-hour day of course. No Saturdays, no Sundays, 40-hour week. But I used to take stuff home and read correspondence all the time. Reports, correspondence, contractor documents, and so forth. Drawings. In fact I used to come here on the couch and get rid of piles of correspondence at a time. All interesting, to me anyhow.

[Assistant] I bet the drawings were very interesting as well.

[User] Yes they were. We had some of the best engineers working in the fields of communications and radar and control of aircraft, control of spacecraft. All very interesting. I didn't realize at the time how big a pioneering effort we had undertaken, because almost everything we did was new. That was true both on Lunar Orbiter and Viking. Lunar Orbiter was new to me. A little bit old hat for spacecraft. Now in Viking we actually had new computers and new communications and so forth, new instruments. So Viking was a fairly brand-new experiment.\n\n In fact, I thought you might be interested, this is one of the original Martin models that was later changed. They moved a lot of things around and saved weight and made it smaller. But they were minor changes. It pretty well flew just like that, just the way they proposed, almost the way they proposed. I had a nice model which I gave to my son-in-law who's taking it up to Connecticut. He took it up and put it in an aquarium. Gave me a lot more publicity than I ever gave it.

[Assistant] Pretty interesting.

[User] I was going to show you the X-15 model, which I still have I think someplace up here. It still looked like an airplane.

[Assistant] Yes, it does.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to show you the X-15 model, which I still have I think someplace up here. It still looked like an airplane.

[Assistant] Yes, it does.

[User] They don't anymore. They look like flying I don't know what. Look like something that cat drug in. See, this was still an airplane. It was streamlined. Tiny wings. But had to go up to something like 7,000 degrees, the thermal problem more than anything else. The aerodynamics were pretty well known, except that they knew or they thought that there was a large control reversal problem at the time when you went supersonic. That wasn't solved. Well, it turned out not to be true to begin with. Controls didn't reverse.\n\n But now we fly at Mach 2 and 3. All the fighters out at Langley are supersonic airplanes. How about that? That's nice, that's a good surprise. But the X-15 was still a streamlined thing, no tires. They put an alpha-beta attack and yaw things right in the nose of it, in the hottest spot you could get, and that worked fine too. Do you remember that nut that piloted this thing at first? He got into the first flight. He had a broken rib. He didn't tell anybody. He had hurt himself somehow. He was a really strange guy. He's still around. He retired.

[Assistant] You worked on the instrumentation for the X-15?

[User] Yes, it had a lot of new telemetry stuff, which I was not too familiar with. But I installed most of the flight instrumentation. Accelerometers, pressure devices, thermocouples, and things like that. I was in charge of a group that designed the instruments. We sent them out to Edwards Air Force Base [California] after they were built, and they did the installation and checkout. Although, that was done at North American [Aviation, Incorporated], not at Edwards, in Los Angeles [California]. They're still in business?

[Assistant] Well, North American turned into Rockwell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don't anymore. They look like flying I don't know what. Look like something that cat drug in. See, this was still an airplane. It was streamlined. Tiny wings. But had to go up to something like 7,000 degrees, the thermal problem more than anything else. The aerodynamics were pretty well known, except that they knew or they thought that there was a large control reversal problem at the time when you went supersonic. That wasn't solved. Well, it turned out not to be true to begin with. Controls didn't reverse.\n\n But now we fly at Mach 2 and 3. All the fighters out at Langley are supersonic airplanes. How about that? That's nice, that's a good surprise. But the X-15 was still a streamlined thing, no tires. They put an alpha-beta attack and yaw things right in the nose of it, in the hottest spot you could get, and that worked fine too. Do you remember that nut that piloted this thing at first? He got into the first flight. He had a broken rib. He didn't tell anybody. He had hurt himself somehow. He was a really strange guy. He's still around. He retired.

[Assistant] You worked on the instrumentation for the X-15?

[User] Yes, it had a lot of new telemetry stuff, which I was not too familiar with. But I installed most of the flight instrumentation. Accelerometers, pressure devices, thermocouples, and things like that. I was in charge of a group that designed the instruments. We sent them out to Edwards Air Force Base [California] after they were built, and they did the installation and checkout. Although, that was done at North American [Aviation, Incorporated], not at Edwards, in Los Angeles [California]. They're still in business?

[Assistant] Well, North American turned into Rockwell.

[User] Okay, they became Rockwell, didn't they.

[Assistant] They're part of the business called United Space Alliance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it had a lot of new telemetry stuff, which I was not too familiar with. But I installed most of the flight instrumentation. Accelerometers, pressure devices, thermocouples, and things like that. I was in charge of a group that designed the instruments. We sent them out to Edwards Air Force Base [California] after they were built, and they did the installation and checkout. Although, that was done at North American [Aviation, Incorporated], not at Edwards, in Los Angeles [California]. They're still in business?

[Assistant] Well, North American turned into Rockwell.

[User] Okay, they became Rockwell, didn't they.

[Assistant] They're part of the business called United Space Alliance.

[User] Good group of people too. In fact, in the United States—maybe it's true all over the world—there's a lot of smart people around that do all kinds of things. Amazingly smart.

[Assistant] They have pilots that are crazy and get into airplanes, right, test pilots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, they became Rockwell, didn't they.

[Assistant] They're part of the business called United Space Alliance.

[User] Good group of people too. In fact, in the United States—maybe it's true all over the world—there's a lot of smart people around that do all kinds of things. Amazingly smart.

[Assistant] They have pilots that are crazy and get into airplanes, right, test pilots.

[User] Yes, I'm going to go back to airplanes someday. Next life.

[Assistant] I think that's a good idea. You can redesign them where they'll look like airplanes, won't they.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good group of people too. In fact, in the United States—maybe it's true all over the world—there's a lot of smart people around that do all kinds of things. Amazingly smart.

[Assistant] They have pilots that are crazy and get into airplanes, right, test pilots.

[User] Yes, I'm going to go back to airplanes someday. Next life.

[Assistant] I think that's a good idea. You can redesign them where they'll look like airplanes, won't they.

[User] What I don't like is what they're doing nowadays with things like airplanes that they claim are reentry vehicles. What they're doing is they go up to high altitudes and they come back in. But they're not thermal. They don't take the reentry velocities that you need when you go to orbital speeds. But they're going to sell to passengers at about $20,000 a kick or more. $1,000,000 a flight. Tell them that they've been in a reentry. Well, they'll have been in a reentry, but it's a low speed. Not too exciting.

[Assistant] So you're not planning on buying a ticket then, huh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I'm going to go back to airplanes someday. Next life.

[Assistant] I think that's a good idea. You can redesign them where they'll look like airplanes, won't they.

[User] What I don't like is what they're doing nowadays with things like airplanes that they claim are reentry vehicles. What they're doing is they go up to high altitudes and they come back in. But they're not thermal. They don't take the reentry velocities that you need when you go to orbital speeds. But they're going to sell to passengers at about $20,000 a kick or more. $1,000,000 a flight. Tell them that they've been in a reentry. Well, they'll have been in a reentry, but it's a low speed. Not too exciting.

[Assistant] So you're not planning on buying a ticket then, huh.

[User] I don't even expect to be here.

[Assistant] Well, you never know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I don't like is what they're doing nowadays with things like airplanes that they claim are reentry vehicles. What they're doing is they go up to high altitudes and they come back in. But they're not thermal. They don't take the reentry velocities that you need when you go to orbital speeds. But they're going to sell to passengers at about $20,000 a kick or more. $1,000,000 a flight. Tell them that they've been in a reentry. Well, they'll have been in a reentry, but it's a low speed. Not too exciting.

[Assistant] So you're not planning on buying a ticket then, huh.

[User] I don't even expect to be here.

[Assistant] Well, you never know.

[User] No, I'm not going to buy a ticket. I would buy a ticket, if I could go as fast as the X-15 went or the Apollo during reentry. I think I could get interested. But at the speeds they're talking about, it doesn't sound at all exciting. In fact they'll be in an aircraft and they'll experience zero-G [gravity] I think for a short period of time. But other than that, yuck. Yuck.\n\n I'm going to have to clean house one of these days.

[Assistant] On a rainy day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even expect to be here.

[Assistant] Well, you never know.

[User] No, I'm not going to buy a ticket. I would buy a ticket, if I could go as fast as the X-15 went or the Apollo during reentry. I think I could get interested. But at the speeds they're talking about, it doesn't sound at all exciting. In fact they'll be in an aircraft and they'll experience zero-G [gravity] I think for a short period of time. But other than that, yuck. Yuck.\n\n I'm going to have to clean house one of these days.

[Assistant] On a rainy day.

[User] I'm amazed. Mary Ellen died. She was three years older than I was. She was 90 and she died in November, end of November. I'm amazed at all the work there is to do around the house, between cooking and cleaning and vacuuming and all kinds of things. I don't know. She taught school for—let's see. She quit school when I quit. So she quit in '75. She started teaching about '50. So she taught for 25 years, and she kept house too. Amazing.

[Assistant] It is. Did you meet her after you got to Hampton? After you arrived for NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm not going to buy a ticket. I would buy a ticket, if I could go as fast as the X-15 went or the Apollo during reentry. I think I could get interested. But at the speeds they're talking about, it doesn't sound at all exciting. In fact they'll be in an aircraft and they'll experience zero-G [gravity] I think for a short period of time. But other than that, yuck. Yuck.\n\n I'm going to have to clean house one of these days.

[Assistant] On a rainy day.

[User] I'm amazed. Mary Ellen died. She was three years older than I was. She was 90 and she died in November, end of November. I'm amazed at all the work there is to do around the house, between cooking and cleaning and vacuuming and all kinds of things. I don't know. She taught school for—let's see. She quit school when I quit. So she quit in '75. She started teaching about '50. So she taught for 25 years, and she kept house too. Amazing.

[Assistant] It is. Did you meet her after you got to Hampton? After you arrived for NACA?

[User] Well, I got married down here, yeah. She was an NACA employee, and she was working on strain gauges at the time. You know what a strain gauge is? It's a metal grid, and you put them on structures and you read the resistance of the grid, and from that you determine how much strain the structure is under. They’ve got a lot of problems. They're temperature-sensitive and all kinds of sensitive to other things. But she worked on those for a number of years. She was doing research on strain gauges at Langley when we met. I was in her car rider combination of course going to Langley. There are no public transportation schemes down here. You got in a car with other people or you stayed home.

[Assistant] Sounds like you had a good system that worked well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm amazed. Mary Ellen died. She was three years older than I was. She was 90 and she died in November, end of November. I'm amazed at all the work there is to do around the house, between cooking and cleaning and vacuuming and all kinds of things. I don't know. She taught school for—let's see. She quit school when I quit. So she quit in '75. She started teaching about '50. So she taught for 25 years, and she kept house too. Amazing.

[Assistant] It is. Did you meet her after you got to Hampton? After you arrived for NACA?

[User] Well, I got married down here, yeah. She was an NACA employee, and she was working on strain gauges at the time. You know what a strain gauge is? It's a metal grid, and you put them on structures and you read the resistance of the grid, and from that you determine how much strain the structure is under. They’ve got a lot of problems. They're temperature-sensitive and all kinds of sensitive to other things. But she worked on those for a number of years. She was doing research on strain gauges at Langley when we met. I was in her car rider combination of course going to Langley. There are no public transportation schemes down here. You got in a car with other people or you stayed home.

[Assistant] Sounds like you had a good system that worked well.

[User] It worked fine, yes, if you had friends it worked fine. That wasn't too bad.

[Assistant] Did you work with other women during NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked fine, yes, if you had friends it worked fine. That wasn't too bad.

[Assistant] Did you work with other women during NACA?

[User] Yes, there were a number of women, but very few and far between. At the time we had what they called computers at NASA, and they really did computing. They had datasheets that were full of wind tunnel data and aerodynamic data, and they actually took all the numbers and converted them to coefficients and things like that. They were called computers until we built some real computers. Then they had to retire or go look for other things to do. So the only women really working at Langley—there was one woman engineer, a woman named Joyner, Betty Joyner. The rest were generally computers, and there weren't too many of them.\n\n They used Fridens and hand calculators, things like that. They became obsolete. They were replaced slowly. We had relay computers. If you walked by where these were located, you could hear the relays clacking. Extremely slow. Very small memories. They were eventually replaced with electronic computers, which is what we have today. They were interesting times. You never realize how interesting they are because you're going through them and there's a lot of new things happening. You're very lucky to be at the forefront of the happenings, but you never realize it.

[Assistant] Did people adapt well to the new technology as it came through?

[User] Yes, I think so. In fact, I'm amazed at the way the kids nowadays have adapted, the computers, enormous memories, the Internet. They seem to be born with a sixth sense as to how to use this new equipment. A lot of it has me stumped. I don't understand it at all.

[Assistant] Just takes you a little bit longer I think, because there's so much and it changes so quickly. I think that's part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were a number of women, but very few and far between. At the time we had what they called computers at NASA, and they really did computing. They had datasheets that were full of wind tunnel data and aerodynamic data, and they actually took all the numbers and converted them to coefficients and things like that. They were called computers until we built some real computers. Then they had to retire or go look for other things to do. So the only women really working at Langley—there was one woman engineer, a woman named Joyner, Betty Joyner. The rest were generally computers, and there weren't too many of them.\n\n They used Fridens and hand calculators, things like that. They became obsolete. They were replaced slowly. We had relay computers. If you walked by where these were located, you could hear the relays clacking. Extremely slow. Very small memories. They were eventually replaced with electronic computers, which is what we have today. They were interesting times. You never realize how interesting they are because you're going through them and there's a lot of new things happening. You're very lucky to be at the forefront of the happenings, but you never realize it.

[Assistant] Did people adapt well to the new technology as it came through?

[User] Yes, I think so. In fact, I'm amazed at the way the kids nowadays have adapted, the computers, enormous memories, the Internet. They seem to be born with a sixth sense as to how to use this new equipment. A lot of it has me stumped. I don't understand it at all.

[Assistant] Just takes you a little bit longer I think, because there's so much and it changes so quickly. I think that's part.

[User] It changes awfully fast. That's one reason I enjoyed consulting with NASA, because you could stay abreast of what was going on a little bit, and you were still familiar with the new people. That helped a lot.

[Assistant] What seems to be a prevailing lesson or a prevailing method all these years that you've been able to apply no matter what project you were working with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think so. In fact, I'm amazed at the way the kids nowadays have adapted, the computers, enormous memories, the Internet. They seem to be born with a sixth sense as to how to use this new equipment. A lot of it has me stumped. I don't understand it at all.

[Assistant] Just takes you a little bit longer I think, because there's so much and it changes so quickly. I think that's part.

[User] It changes awfully fast. That's one reason I enjoyed consulting with NASA, because you could stay abreast of what was going on a little bit, and you were still familiar with the new people. That helped a lot.

[Assistant] What seems to be a prevailing lesson or a prevailing method all these years that you've been able to apply no matter what project you were working with?

[User] The only thing that I remember using on every project was to be conservative about everything. Believe everything, but don't believe anything. It never hurt to be conservative. Langley was a conservative Center. So it was no problem at all to be conservative in the amount of data you were collecting, in the method of getting to the planet. So although we were pioneering in many fields, conservatism was still a good idea. Still is.

[Assistant] How important was testing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It changes awfully fast. That's one reason I enjoyed consulting with NASA, because you could stay abreast of what was going on a little bit, and you were still familiar with the new people. That helped a lot.

[Assistant] What seems to be a prevailing lesson or a prevailing method all these years that you've been able to apply no matter what project you were working with?

[User] The only thing that I remember using on every project was to be conservative about everything. Believe everything, but don't believe anything. It never hurt to be conservative. Langley was a conservative Center. So it was no problem at all to be conservative in the amount of data you were collecting, in the method of getting to the planet. So although we were pioneering in many fields, conservatism was still a good idea. Still is.

[Assistant] How important was testing?

[User] Well, we did an awful lot of testing. Everything we built was tested many times before we flew it.

[Assistant] Were you part of testing procedures and watched the tests?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only thing that I remember using on every project was to be conservative about everything. Believe everything, but don't believe anything. It never hurt to be conservative. Langley was a conservative Center. So it was no problem at all to be conservative in the amount of data you were collecting, in the method of getting to the planet. So although we were pioneering in many fields, conservatism was still a good idea. Still is.

[Assistant] How important was testing?

[User] Well, we did an awful lot of testing. Everything we built was tested many times before we flew it.

[Assistant] Were you part of testing procedures and watched the tests?

[User] Not especially so. In fact I was in a part of a design group, and so testing was a little bit not our field. Although the calibration lab did a lot of testing on instruments. The aero people did a lot of testing. In fact they built a lot of new facilities at Langley, landing facilities and wind tunnels and things like that. But testing has always been a Langley fetish, and I hope still is down at Houston [Texas] too, at least used to be. I haven't been there in years.

[Assistant] Did you do a lot of traveling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did an awful lot of testing. Everything we built was tested many times before we flew it.

[Assistant] Were you part of testing procedures and watched the tests?

[User] Not especially so. In fact I was in a part of a design group, and so testing was a little bit not our field. Although the calibration lab did a lot of testing on instruments. The aero people did a lot of testing. In fact they built a lot of new facilities at Langley, landing facilities and wind tunnels and things like that. But testing has always been a Langley fetish, and I hope still is down at Houston [Texas] too, at least used to be. I haven't been there in years.

[Assistant] Did you do a lot of traveling?

[User] Oh, you did a lot of traveling on Viking. In fact I visited all the subcontractors, all the instruments and the life support stuff. The gas chromatograph. They were all built in different sections of the country. So it was life aboard an airplane a lot of times, most of the time. A lot of motel living. If you don't learn how to live in motels, you don't live.

[Assistant] Communication was a little different then too. People didn't have cell phones and email.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not especially so. In fact I was in a part of a design group, and so testing was a little bit not our field. Although the calibration lab did a lot of testing on instruments. The aero people did a lot of testing. In fact they built a lot of new facilities at Langley, landing facilities and wind tunnels and things like that. But testing has always been a Langley fetish, and I hope still is down at Houston [Texas] too, at least used to be. I haven't been there in years.

[Assistant] Did you do a lot of traveling?

[User] Oh, you did a lot of traveling on Viking. In fact I visited all the subcontractors, all the instruments and the life support stuff. The gas chromatograph. They were all built in different sections of the country. So it was life aboard an airplane a lot of times, most of the time. A lot of motel living. If you don't learn how to live in motels, you don't live.

[Assistant] Communication was a little different then too. People didn't have cell phones and email.

[User] We didn't have cell phones, we had telephones. Cell phones didn't come in till I quit. Everybody's got one now, though. Everybody walks around with one ear at a telephone. I don't even know what they're talking about, but they're talking.

[Assistant] Maybe they don't either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you did a lot of traveling on Viking. In fact I visited all the subcontractors, all the instruments and the life support stuff. The gas chromatograph. They were all built in different sections of the country. So it was life aboard an airplane a lot of times, most of the time. A lot of motel living. If you don't learn how to live in motels, you don't live.

[Assistant] Communication was a little different then too. People didn't have cell phones and email.

[User] We didn't have cell phones, we had telephones. Cell phones didn't come in till I quit. Everybody's got one now, though. Everybody walks around with one ear at a telephone. I don't even know what they're talking about, but they're talking.

[Assistant] Maybe they don't either.

[User] Maybe they don't care.

[Assistant] They're just talking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't have cell phones, we had telephones. Cell phones didn't come in till I quit. Everybody's got one now, though. Everybody walks around with one ear at a telephone. I don't even know what they're talking about, but they're talking.

[Assistant] Maybe they don't either.

[User] Maybe they don't care.

[Assistant] They're just talking.

[User] Yes, they're talking and listening.

[Assistant] It must have been an interesting time to travel for each of those contractors for each of the pieces and the aspects of that project and then coming back to Langley with that information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe they don't care.

[Assistant] They're just talking.

[User] Yes, they're talking and listening.

[Assistant] It must have been an interesting time to travel for each of those contractors for each of the pieces and the aspects of that project and then coming back to Langley with that information.

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky I think in having a job that oversaw all the areas of the spacecraft. We didn't go to one manufacturer and get into communications or other restricted field and stay with that. That was luck.

[Assistant] It does sound good. I'm going to let you put your X-15 model back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they're talking and listening.

[Assistant] It must have been an interesting time to travel for each of those contractors for each of the pieces and the aspects of that project and then coming back to Langley with that information.

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky I think in having a job that oversaw all the areas of the spacecraft. We didn't go to one manufacturer and get into communications or other restricted field and stay with that. That was luck.

[Assistant] It does sound good. I'm going to let you put your X-15 model back.

[User] I got it cleaned. I got two years' worth of cleaning on it. I didn't realize how dirty it is up there. I'll put it back. It's still flying. We built two of them, and two of them are still in existence. Never lost any. That was all Langley-forseen, built by North American, except for the instruments. We did the instruments.

[Assistant] Did you want to get another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky I think in having a job that oversaw all the areas of the spacecraft. We didn't go to one manufacturer and get into communications or other restricted field and stay with that. That was luck.

[Assistant] It does sound good. I'm going to let you put your X-15 model back.

[User] I got it cleaned. I got two years' worth of cleaning on it. I didn't realize how dirty it is up there. I'll put it back. It's still flying. We built two of them, and two of them are still in existence. Never lost any. That was all Langley-forseen, built by North American, except for the instruments. We did the instruments.

[Assistant] Did you want to get another?

[User] Oh, I wanted to show you—let's see, that might be the Lunar Orbiter book. The Moon as Viewed by [Lunar Orbiter]. This is the second one. This has a lot more than just pictures. This describes the photo system and so forth. These are typical pictures. All the pictures were made on 35-millimeter film. Then those strips were put together. So each of these 35-millimeter pieces is what you see about an inch across. Then a whole lot of 35-millimeter stuff became one photograph.

[Assistant] Oh, that's interesting. Because this is about an 8½-by-11 photo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got it cleaned. I got two years' worth of cleaning on it. I didn't realize how dirty it is up there. I'll put it back. It's still flying. We built two of them, and two of them are still in existence. Never lost any. That was all Langley-forseen, built by North American, except for the instruments. We did the instruments.

[Assistant] Did you want to get another?

[User] Oh, I wanted to show you—let's see, that might be the Lunar Orbiter book. The Moon as Viewed by [Lunar Orbiter]. This is the second one. This has a lot more than just pictures. This describes the photo system and so forth. These are typical pictures. All the pictures were made on 35-millimeter film. Then those strips were put together. So each of these 35-millimeter pieces is what you see about an inch across. Then a whole lot of 35-millimeter stuff became one photograph.

[Assistant] Oh, that's interesting. Because this is about an 8½-by-11 photo.

[User] Yes, but each of these were about an inch to begin, 35 millimeters, about an inch, little over an inch.

[Assistant] I guess that they labeled them this way by going, the numbers coming through to label the lines of the 35-millimeter film. Is that what they did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I wanted to show you—let's see, that might be the Lunar Orbiter book. The Moon as Viewed by [Lunar Orbiter]. This is the second one. This has a lot more than just pictures. This describes the photo system and so forth. These are typical pictures. All the pictures were made on 35-millimeter film. Then those strips were put together. So each of these 35-millimeter pieces is what you see about an inch across. Then a whole lot of 35-millimeter stuff became one photograph.

[Assistant] Oh, that's interesting. Because this is about an 8½-by-11 photo.

[User] Yes, but each of these were about an inch to begin, 35 millimeters, about an inch, little over an inch.

[Assistant] I guess that they labeled them this way by going, the numbers coming through to label the lines of the 35-millimeter film. Is that what they did?

[User] Search me. Looks about right, doesn't it? Yes, that must be right.

[Assistant] They have a scale. Yes, one that goes across the top with letters, and one that goes across the side with numbers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but each of these were about an inch to begin, 35 millimeters, about an inch, little over an inch.

[Assistant] I guess that they labeled them this way by going, the numbers coming through to label the lines of the 35-millimeter film. Is that what they did?

[User] Search me. Looks about right, doesn't it? Yes, that must be right.

[Assistant] They have a scale. Yes, one that goes across the top with letters, and one that goes across the side with numbers.

[User] So you could find anything by letter and number. I’ve got a picture like that on the wall. I thought that was magnificent. That's on the west side of the Moon.

[Assistant] It says it's the bull's-eye at the center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Search me. Looks about right, doesn't it? Yes, that must be right.

[Assistant] They have a scale. Yes, one that goes across the top with letters, and one that goes across the side with numbers.

[User] So you could find anything by letter and number. I’ve got a picture like that on the wall. I thought that was magnificent. That's on the west side of the Moon.

[Assistant] It says it's the bull's-eye at the center.

[User] Bull's-eye, right. The other one, this is the one that was put together. This was an official publication. Let me get the other one, which is the one I'm more familiar with. Photographic Atlas of the Moon, Bowker and Hughes, that's the one I'm familiar with. I think that's the one, yes. Clifford Nelson and me.

[Assistant] That looks like you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you could find anything by letter and number. I’ve got a picture like that on the wall. I thought that was magnificent. That's on the west side of the Moon.

[Assistant] It says it's the bull's-eye at the center.

[User] Bull's-eye, right. The other one, this is the one that was put together. This was an official publication. Let me get the other one, which is the one I'm more familiar with. Photographic Atlas of the Moon, Bowker and Hughes, that's the one I'm familiar with. I think that's the one, yes. Clifford Nelson and me.

[Assistant] That looks like you.

[User] I wanted to show you a picture of me about 40 years ago, but you won't believe it. You see this is a little more organized somehow. Smaller, isn't it? Okay, let me show you a good picture. I think I'm the last one on the book. These were taken by the son of the guy that did the GCMS. How about that for removing 40 years?

[Assistant] Look at you, [referring to a photo of Taback] look at that, they saved you a place right there in the corner.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bull's-eye, right. The other one, this is the one that was put together. This was an official publication. Let me get the other one, which is the one I'm more familiar with. Photographic Atlas of the Moon, Bowker and Hughes, that's the one I'm familiar with. I think that's the one, yes. Clifford Nelson and me.

[Assistant] That looks like you.

[User] I wanted to show you a picture of me about 40 years ago, but you won't believe it. You see this is a little more organized somehow. Smaller, isn't it? Okay, let me show you a good picture. I think I'm the last one on the book. These were taken by the son of the guy that did the GCMS. How about that for removing 40 years?

[Assistant] Look at you, [referring to a photo of Taback] look at that, they saved you a place right there in the corner.

[User] Yes, I made it.

[Assistant] They saved the best for the last right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted to show you a picture of me about 40 years ago, but you won't believe it. You see this is a little more organized somehow. Smaller, isn't it? Okay, let me show you a good picture. I think I'm the last one on the book. These were taken by the son of the guy that did the GCMS. How about that for removing 40 years?

[Assistant] Look at you, [referring to a photo of Taback] look at that, they saved you a place right there in the corner.

[User] Yes, I made it.

[Assistant] They saved the best for the last right there.

[User] This is an interesting book. You can't get it in any library. He made a few copies.

[Assistant] Called The Vikings of '76 [Hans-Peter Biemann].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I made it.

[Assistant] They saved the best for the last right there.

[User] This is an interesting book. You can't get it in any library. He made a few copies.

[Assistant] Called The Vikings of '76 [Hans-Peter Biemann].

[User] That's the guy's son. [Klaus] Biemann was the scientist. That's Jim [James S.] Martin. He was the program manager, bright guy, he's dead.

[Assistant] How'd that work together in one room, engineers, scientists, managers, accountants? How did you all come to agreement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is an interesting book. You can't get it in any library. He made a few copies.

[Assistant] Called The Vikings of '76 [Hans-Peter Biemann].

[User] That's the guy's son. [Klaus] Biemann was the scientist. That's Jim [James S.] Martin. He was the program manager, bright guy, he's dead.

[Assistant] How'd that work together in one room, engineers, scientists, managers, accountants? How did you all come to agreement?

[User] Somehow it seemed to work. I don't know why. Well, they were pretty bright people in general. I don't remember any particular problems.

[Assistant] It's good you can converse and make decisions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's the guy's son. [Klaus] Biemann was the scientist. That's Jim [James S.] Martin. He was the program manager, bright guy, he's dead.

[Assistant] How'd that work together in one room, engineers, scientists, managers, accountants? How did you all come to agreement?

[User] Somehow it seemed to work. I don't know why. Well, they were pretty bright people in general. I don't remember any particular problems.

[Assistant] It's good you can converse and make decisions.

[User] Yeah, it worked. Well, there's a girl. You asked about how many women. She was at either JPL or Martin. She wasn't Langley. Let's see who else is interesting. He was the head of NASA at the time. Oh man, those were good old days. You remember Sagan, Carl Sagan? That's him over there.

[Assistant] Very young Carl Sagan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somehow it seemed to work. I don't know why. Well, they were pretty bright people in general. I don't remember any particular problems.

[Assistant] It's good you can converse and make decisions.

[User] Yeah, it worked. Well, there's a girl. You asked about how many women. She was at either JPL or Martin. She wasn't Langley. Let's see who else is interesting. He was the head of NASA at the time. Oh man, those were good old days. You remember Sagan, Carl Sagan? That's him over there.

[Assistant] Very young Carl Sagan.

[User] The other scientists didn't like him for some reason, he was too popular. I don't know whether they were jealous or what. But he was too popular. Okay, the other stuff I brought down, there's some good descriptions of the Viking Lander if you need any of that.

[Assistant] Let me take a look at it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it worked. Well, there's a girl. You asked about how many women. She was at either JPL or Martin. She wasn't Langley. Let's see who else is interesting. He was the head of NASA at the time. Oh man, those were good old days. You remember Sagan, Carl Sagan? That's him over there.

[Assistant] Very young Carl Sagan.

[User] The other scientists didn't like him for some reason, he was too popular. I don't know whether they were jealous or what. But he was too popular. Okay, the other stuff I brought down, there's some good descriptions of the Viking Lander if you need any of that.

[Assistant] Let me take a look at it.

[User] This one is pretty good. I don't know whose property it is, it's mine now. Maurice Parker. This is good because it's got all the scientists and the instruments, and I think it's got a description of the mission to Mars and how we landed and what the instruments looked like and what the spacecraft looked like. It's got a fantastic amount of information. You'll never use it, but if you want a reference, that'll give you some idea of what it looked like.

[Assistant] Did you publish a lot of papers during your time with NACA and NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other scientists didn't like him for some reason, he was too popular. I don't know whether they were jealous or what. But he was too popular. Okay, the other stuff I brought down, there's some good descriptions of the Viking Lander if you need any of that.

[Assistant] Let me take a look at it.

[User] This one is pretty good. I don't know whose property it is, it's mine now. Maurice Parker. This is good because it's got all the scientists and the instruments, and I think it's got a description of the mission to Mars and how we landed and what the instruments looked like and what the spacecraft looked like. It's got a fantastic amount of information. You'll never use it, but if you want a reference, that'll give you some idea of what it looked like.

[Assistant] Did you publish a lot of papers during your time with NACA and NASA?

[User] No, a number, but not very many, half a dozen maybe. They're on the net [Internet] if you look for my name. They have a bunch of links of various papers and things like that. I didn't know that till my daughter told me I was on the net someplace. Yes, this isn't bad, because this is a good description of everything that was done. So you could borrow that. This one isn't bad either. I think this is a description of the thing when it was first built.

[Assistant] About the Viking Lander itself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This one is pretty good. I don't know whose property it is, it's mine now. Maurice Parker. This is good because it's got all the scientists and the instruments, and I think it's got a description of the mission to Mars and how we landed and what the instruments looked like and what the spacecraft looked like. It's got a fantastic amount of information. You'll never use it, but if you want a reference, that'll give you some idea of what it looked like.

[Assistant] Did you publish a lot of papers during your time with NACA and NASA?

[User] No, a number, but not very many, half a dozen maybe. They're on the net [Internet] if you look for my name. They have a bunch of links of various papers and things like that. I didn't know that till my daughter told me I was on the net someplace. Yes, this isn't bad, because this is a good description of everything that was done. So you could borrow that. This one isn't bad either. I think this is a description of the thing when it was first built.

[Assistant] About the Viking Lander itself.

[User] It's got more stuff than you can absorb.

[Assistant] You'd have to explain most of it to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, a number, but not very many, half a dozen maybe. They're on the net [Internet] if you look for my name. They have a bunch of links of various papers and things like that. I didn't know that till my daughter told me I was on the net someplace. Yes, this isn't bad, because this is a good description of everything that was done. So you could borrow that. This one isn't bad either. I think this is a description of the thing when it was first built.

[Assistant] About the Viking Lander itself.

[User] It's got more stuff than you can absorb.

[Assistant] You'd have to explain most of it to me.

[User] No way. I don't remember. I don't remember. Yes, that's pretty good. So if you want a technical background to the Landers, JPL did the Orbiters and we did the Landers, and they really carried us to the planet and got into orbit at the planet, and then we left the Orbiter at the time and we were responsible for the entry and the landing. But they took us there. They did a good job too. In fact, I like JPL. Very competent bunch of people. Okay, shall I see what else we got?

[Assistant] Sure. You have more?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's got more stuff than you can absorb.

[Assistant] You'd have to explain most of it to me.

[User] No way. I don't remember. I don't remember. Yes, that's pretty good. So if you want a technical background to the Landers, JPL did the Orbiters and we did the Landers, and they really carried us to the planet and got into orbit at the planet, and then we left the Orbiter at the time and we were responsible for the entry and the landing. But they took us there. They did a good job too. In fact, I like JPL. Very competent bunch of people. Okay, shall I see what else we got?

[Assistant] Sure. You have more?

[User] All right. I'll make a pile here. Then you can take whatever you want out of that. Now you say you've got this one, right?

[Assistant] I do have The Engineer-in-Charge [by James R. Hansen].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No way. I don't remember. I don't remember. Yes, that's pretty good. So if you want a technical background to the Landers, JPL did the Orbiters and we did the Landers, and they really carried us to the planet and got into orbit at the planet, and then we left the Orbiter at the time and we were responsible for the entry and the landing. But they took us there. They did a good job too. In fact, I like JPL. Very competent bunch of people. Okay, shall I see what else we got?

[Assistant] Sure. You have more?

[User] All right. I'll make a pile here. Then you can take whatever you want out of that. Now you say you've got this one, right?

[Assistant] I do have The Engineer-in-Charge [by James R. Hansen].

[User] You remember NOVA? NOVA has a little bit, more or less. It’s got a pretty good description. But also has the context of a lot of other things happening at the same time. This is a repeat of the broadcast. That's the Lander.

[Assistant] It was interesting, because you had worked on the Lunar Orbiter Project, and when that was over you started working on the Mars, but yet the rest of the country was looking to go to the Moon. So were you keeping up with what was going on during the Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. I'll make a pile here. Then you can take whatever you want out of that. Now you say you've got this one, right?

[Assistant] I do have The Engineer-in-Charge [by James R. Hansen].

[User] You remember NOVA? NOVA has a little bit, more or less. It’s got a pretty good description. But also has the context of a lot of other things happening at the same time. This is a repeat of the broadcast. That's the Lander.

[Assistant] It was interesting, because you had worked on the Lunar Orbiter Project, and when that was over you started working on the Mars, but yet the rest of the country was looking to go to the Moon. So were you keeping up with what was going on during the Apollo?

[User] Well, we landed on the Moon in '69. An old friend of mine landed on the Moon, [Neil A.] Armstrong, he's a good guy, he was a bright guy. Yes, you're right. I think the rest of the country was lunar-oriented rather than Mars-oriented. But I thought Mars fascinating. Mars was a good science thing.

[Assistant] So did you work much with Neil Armstrong when he was a pilot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You remember NOVA? NOVA has a little bit, more or less. It’s got a pretty good description. But also has the context of a lot of other things happening at the same time. This is a repeat of the broadcast. That's the Lander.

[Assistant] It was interesting, because you had worked on the Lunar Orbiter Project, and when that was over you started working on the Mars, but yet the rest of the country was looking to go to the Moon. So were you keeping up with what was going on during the Apollo?

[User] Well, we landed on the Moon in '69. An old friend of mine landed on the Moon, [Neil A.] Armstrong, he's a good guy, he was a bright guy. Yes, you're right. I think the rest of the country was lunar-oriented rather than Mars-oriented. But I thought Mars fascinating. Mars was a good science thing.

[Assistant] So did you work much with Neil Armstrong when he was a pilot?

[User] Not a lot. I knew him but I didn't know him very well. He's a very down-to-earth, extremely serious-minded guy. I think he's taken his mission to the Moon very seriously. He's not going to do anything that's going to destroy his reputation.

[Assistant] From things I've read, he takes his life as an engineer and a pilot very seriously too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we landed on the Moon in '69. An old friend of mine landed on the Moon, [Neil A.] Armstrong, he's a good guy, he was a bright guy. Yes, you're right. I think the rest of the country was lunar-oriented rather than Mars-oriented. But I thought Mars fascinating. Mars was a good science thing.

[Assistant] So did you work much with Neil Armstrong when he was a pilot?

[User] Not a lot. I knew him but I didn't know him very well. He's a very down-to-earth, extremely serious-minded guy. I think he's taken his mission to the Moon very seriously. He's not going to do anything that's going to destroy his reputation.

[Assistant] From things I've read, he takes his life as an engineer and a pilot very seriously too.

[User] Yes. Okay, so if you want to borrow that. Let's see what else I got. I don't know. Let me go see. Okay. You can always say no.

[Assistant] I like looking at it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a lot. I knew him but I didn't know him very well. He's a very down-to-earth, extremely serious-minded guy. I think he's taken his mission to the Moon very seriously. He's not going to do anything that's going to destroy his reputation.

[Assistant] From things I've read, he takes his life as an engineer and a pilot very seriously too.

[User] Yes. Okay, so if you want to borrow that. Let's see what else I got. I don't know. Let me go see. Okay. You can always say no.

[Assistant] I like looking at it.

[User] I don't know what else I got here. My files are obsolete.

[Assistant] Are these old Langley newsletters? Is that what they are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Okay, so if you want to borrow that. Let's see what else I got. I don't know. Let me go see. Okay. You can always say no.

[Assistant] I like looking at it.

[User] I don't know what else I got here. My files are obsolete.

[Assistant] Are these old Langley newsletters? Is that what they are?

[User] Yes. In one of them there was a write-up of me.

[Assistant] Did the Center grow a lot after you got here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know what else I got here. My files are obsolete.

[Assistant] Are these old Langley newsletters? Is that what they are?

[User] Yes. In one of them there was a write-up of me.

[Assistant] Did the Center grow a lot after you got here?

[User] Well, I came here in '42, and it became NASA in '57 or '58 after the Russian Sputnik. So that was 12, 13 years.

[Assistant] Did you see a big increase in employees then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In one of them there was a write-up of me.

[Assistant] Did the Center grow a lot after you got here?

[User] Well, I came here in '42, and it became NASA in '57 or '58 after the Russian Sputnik. So that was 12, 13 years.

[Assistant] Did you see a big increase in employees then?

[User] No, not really. There was a big increase in the local attention given to space in the way of local programs, math and science and things like that, because everybody got excited about how good the Soviets were, which turns out to be not all that interesting. Let's see. That's interesting. That's Jim Martin. [Referring to photo of himself and Jim Martin.] We're eating again. Son of a gun.

[Assistant] It's good to know you ate while you were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I came here in '42, and it became NASA in '57 or '58 after the Russian Sputnik. So that was 12, 13 years.

[Assistant] Did you see a big increase in employees then?

[User] No, not really. There was a big increase in the local attention given to space in the way of local programs, math and science and things like that, because everybody got excited about how good the Soviets were, which turns out to be not all that interesting. Let's see. That's interesting. That's Jim Martin. [Referring to photo of himself and Jim Martin.] We're eating again. Son of a gun.

[Assistant] It's good to know you ate while you were there.

[User] Did you know [Edgar M.] Cortright?

[Assistant] Yes, I know the name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. There was a big increase in the local attention given to space in the way of local programs, math and science and things like that, because everybody got excited about how good the Soviets were, which turns out to be not all that interesting. Let's see. That's interesting. That's Jim Martin. [Referring to photo of himself and Jim Martin.] We're eating again. Son of a gun.

[Assistant] It's good to know you ate while you were there.

[User] Did you know [Edgar M.] Cortright?

[Assistant] Yes, I know the name.

[User] He just moved up to Maine.

[Assistant] Was he Director here for a while? [1968-1975]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did you know [Edgar M.] Cortright?

[Assistant] Yes, I know the name.

[User] He just moved up to Maine.

[Assistant] Was he Director here for a while? [1968-1975]

[User] Yes. He came out of [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].\n\n [Referring to another photo] Everybody’s got a tie, must be a workday.

[Assistant] Must be. Are you in that picture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He just moved up to Maine.

[Assistant] Was he Director here for a while? [1968-1975]

[User] Yes. He came out of [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].\n\n [Referring to another photo] Everybody’s got a tie, must be a workday.

[Assistant] Must be. Are you in that picture?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It looks like you're getting an award.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He came out of [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].\n\n [Referring to another photo] Everybody’s got a tie, must be a workday.

[Assistant] Must be. Are you in that picture?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It looks like you're getting an award.

[User] It is an award. Yes, this is Cliff Nelson. So it's probably an award for the Lunar Orbiter. Yes, I think it is.

[Assistant] This must be your team. Does look like the Lunar Orbiter award. Spacecraft and Operations Team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It looks like you're getting an award.

[User] It is an award. Yes, this is Cliff Nelson. So it's probably an award for the Lunar Orbiter. Yes, I think it is.

[Assistant] This must be your team. Does look like the Lunar Orbiter award. Spacecraft and Operations Team.

[User] This was sent to me by a guy named Price who was in the Public Affairs Office at Langley. I think it's a staff photo so it's got a number on it. Don't know what it is.

[Assistant] From 1968. It must have been when you were finished.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is an award. Yes, this is Cliff Nelson. So it's probably an award for the Lunar Orbiter. Yes, I think it is.

[Assistant] This must be your team. Does look like the Lunar Orbiter award. Spacecraft and Operations Team.

[User] This was sent to me by a guy named Price who was in the Public Affairs Office at Langley. I think it's a staff photo so it's got a number on it. Don't know what it is.

[Assistant] From 1968. It must have been when you were finished.

[User] Probably Lunar Orbiter. I looked at these and there's too many words. These are write-ups for raises and changes in status and things like that.

[Assistant] Did you go through a lot of reorganizations and changes there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was sent to me by a guy named Price who was in the Public Affairs Office at Langley. I think it's a staff photo so it's got a number on it. Don't know what it is.

[Assistant] From 1968. It must have been when you were finished.

[User] Probably Lunar Orbiter. I looked at these and there's too many words. These are write-ups for raises and changes in status and things like that.

[Assistant] Did you go through a lot of reorganizations and changes there?

[User] No, we were lucky. Very little. Actually Nelson was head of one of the other sections in the Instrument Research Division, and when he got to be appointed manager on Lunar Orbiter he came and got me, for reasons I don't understand. But he did that. So it was a quick change from one job to another. Same boss.

[Assistant] That's good. Especially if you liked working for him. Sounds like you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably Lunar Orbiter. I looked at these and there's too many words. These are write-ups for raises and changes in status and things like that.

[Assistant] Did you go through a lot of reorganizations and changes there?

[User] No, we were lucky. Very little. Actually Nelson was head of one of the other sections in the Instrument Research Division, and when he got to be appointed manager on Lunar Orbiter he came and got me, for reasons I don't understand. But he did that. So it was a quick change from one job to another. Same boss.

[Assistant] That's good. Especially if you liked working for him. Sounds like you did.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Okay, let's see what else we got. Oh, this is just more descriptions of the Lander.

[Assistant] What was the most difficult part about designing the Lander?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were lucky. Very little. Actually Nelson was head of one of the other sections in the Instrument Research Division, and when he got to be appointed manager on Lunar Orbiter he came and got me, for reasons I don't understand. But he did that. So it was a quick change from one job to another. Same boss.

[Assistant] That's good. Especially if you liked working for him. Sounds like you did.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Okay, let's see what else we got. Oh, this is just more descriptions of the Lander.

[Assistant] What was the most difficult part about designing the Lander?

[User] Nobody knew anything about the entry, that was all supposition, nobody knew much about the surface, nobody knew how soft it was or how hard it was, or whether you'd bounce or disappear in a cloud of dust. The entry was interesting, because we had to come in from orbit at very high speed and take care of the heat pulse. It's worse than reentry on Earth. You're going faster. Well, that had to be dispensed with with an aeroshell, and we did. In fact we had a lifting aeroshell, which was unusual at the time. So we came in at Mars and lifted the thing as though it were a flying airplane. But actually the doing was relatively simple compared to the immense amount of ignorance before we got there. So it was a lot of good guessing and things like that, good guessing.\n\n Let's see what else we got here. Mars: The Viking Discoveries [by Bevan M. French]. Oh, these are the reunions. It's hard to believe it's been close to 40 years.

[Assistant] It has been 40.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was a good guy. Okay, let's see what else we got. Oh, this is just more descriptions of the Lander.

[Assistant] What was the most difficult part about designing the Lander?

[User] Nobody knew anything about the entry, that was all supposition, nobody knew much about the surface, nobody knew how soft it was or how hard it was, or whether you'd bounce or disappear in a cloud of dust. The entry was interesting, because we had to come in from orbit at very high speed and take care of the heat pulse. It's worse than reentry on Earth. You're going faster. Well, that had to be dispensed with with an aeroshell, and we did. In fact we had a lifting aeroshell, which was unusual at the time. So we came in at Mars and lifted the thing as though it were a flying airplane. But actually the doing was relatively simple compared to the immense amount of ignorance before we got there. So it was a lot of good guessing and things like that, good guessing.\n\n Let's see what else we got here. Mars: The Viking Discoveries [by Bevan M. French]. Oh, these are the reunions. It's hard to believe it's been close to 40 years.

[Assistant] It has been 40.

[User] That's it, that's all the gifts I’ve got.

[Assistant] All right. You’ve got lots of goodies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody knew anything about the entry, that was all supposition, nobody knew much about the surface, nobody knew how soft it was or how hard it was, or whether you'd bounce or disappear in a cloud of dust. The entry was interesting, because we had to come in from orbit at very high speed and take care of the heat pulse. It's worse than reentry on Earth. You're going faster. Well, that had to be dispensed with with an aeroshell, and we did. In fact we had a lifting aeroshell, which was unusual at the time. So we came in at Mars and lifted the thing as though it were a flying airplane. But actually the doing was relatively simple compared to the immense amount of ignorance before we got there. So it was a lot of good guessing and things like that, good guessing.\n\n Let's see what else we got here. Mars: The Viking Discoveries [by Bevan M. French]. Oh, these are the reunions. It's hard to believe it's been close to 40 years.

[Assistant] It has been 40.

[User] That's it, that's all the gifts I’ve got.

[Assistant] All right. You’ve got lots of goodies.

[User] Okay. What would you like to take with you?

[Assistant] I think when we stop for a second I might go back in and get some of the names of the books and things. Let me take a break and we'll do that.\n\n [pause]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's it, that's all the gifts I’ve got.

[Assistant] All right. You’ve got lots of goodies.

[User] Okay. What would you like to take with you?

[Assistant] I think when we stop for a second I might go back in and get some of the names of the books and things. Let me take a break and we'll do that.\n\n [pause]

[User] So I didn't have much to do with the high-speed research at the time, although we were doing what they called cleanup work, cutting the drag and getting more stability and things like that. It was an interesting time.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had a son-in-law in Connecticut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. What would you like to take with you?

[Assistant] I think when we stop for a second I might go back in and get some of the names of the books and things. Let me take a break and we'll do that.\n\n [pause]

[User] So I didn't have much to do with the high-speed research at the time, although we were doing what they called cleanup work, cutting the drag and getting more stability and things like that. It was an interesting time.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had a son-in-law in Connecticut.

[User] Yes, I had one daughter and one son. The daughter is married. My son is not. He lives over in Virginia Beach [Virginia]. Smart boy. All by himself. But my daughter is married, and she's got a daughter, so I do have one grandchild.

[Assistant] Are they in the engineering field like you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I didn't have much to do with the high-speed research at the time, although we were doing what they called cleanup work, cutting the drag and getting more stability and things like that. It was an interesting time.

[Assistant] You mentioned you had a son-in-law in Connecticut.

[User] Yes, I had one daughter and one son. The daughter is married. My son is not. He lives over in Virginia Beach [Virginia]. Smart boy. All by himself. But my daughter is married, and she's got a daughter, so I do have one grandchild.

[Assistant] Are they in the engineering field like you?

[User] No, but she's doing things I can't even pronounce. She used to work for Howard Hughes Medical Center in Oregon, and she's working on what happens in people's brains, how you think and what chemicals are involved and things like that. Don't ask me what, but fascinating. But anyhow she was here up to about a week ago, and she took my van, and she's going to Florida, and then she's going to travel west, going to look for another job. She was going to Baltimore for her PhD and she didn't like it, too tough. Town was too tough.

[Assistant] Where were you in New York? You said you started in New York. Were you in New York City when you started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had one daughter and one son. The daughter is married. My son is not. He lives over in Virginia Beach [Virginia]. Smart boy. All by himself. But my daughter is married, and she's got a daughter, so I do have one grandchild.

[Assistant] Are they in the engineering field like you?

[User] No, but she's doing things I can't even pronounce. She used to work for Howard Hughes Medical Center in Oregon, and she's working on what happens in people's brains, how you think and what chemicals are involved and things like that. Don't ask me what, but fascinating. But anyhow she was here up to about a week ago, and she took my van, and she's going to Florida, and then she's going to travel west, going to look for another job. She was going to Baltimore for her PhD and she didn't like it, too tough. Town was too tough.

[Assistant] Where were you in New York? You said you started in New York. Were you in New York City when you started?

[User] Yes, I was born in the lower part of Manhattan, and when I moved down here I was from the Bronx, about 179th Street. My folks lived up there for a long time.

[Assistant] So it's quite a difference for you to move from a city to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but she's doing things I can't even pronounce. She used to work for Howard Hughes Medical Center in Oregon, and she's working on what happens in people's brains, how you think and what chemicals are involved and things like that. Don't ask me what, but fascinating. But anyhow she was here up to about a week ago, and she took my van, and she's going to Florida, and then she's going to travel west, going to look for another job. She was going to Baltimore for her PhD and she didn't like it, too tough. Town was too tough.

[Assistant] Where were you in New York? You said you started in New York. Were you in New York City when you started?

[User] Yes, I was born in the lower part of Manhattan, and when I moved down here I was from the Bronx, about 179th Street. My folks lived up there for a long time.

[Assistant] So it's quite a difference for you to move from a city to—

[User] Oh boy, what a difference.

[Assistant] —an old southern town as you referred to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was born in the lower part of Manhattan, and when I moved down here I was from the Bronx, about 179th Street. My folks lived up there for a long time.

[Assistant] So it's quite a difference for you to move from a city to—

[User] Oh boy, what a difference.

[Assistant] —an old southern town as you referred to it.

[User] I never liked New York, but this wasn't too bad.

[Assistant] It was quiet here, wasn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh boy, what a difference.

[Assistant] —an old southern town as you referred to it.

[User] I never liked New York, but this wasn't too bad.

[Assistant] It was quiet here, wasn't it?

[User] It's quiet. A lot more outdoors. I never could get used to the segregation though. Pretty violent.

[Assistant] Your wife was a native of Hampton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never liked New York, but this wasn't too bad.

[Assistant] It was quiet here, wasn't it?

[User] It's quiet. A lot more outdoors. I never could get used to the segregation though. Pretty violent.

[Assistant] Your wife was a native of Hampton?

[User] No, she's a native of Washington, DC.

[Assistant] Okay, then she moved here. Both of you came from cities, remarkable cities, to a small town. Did she come to work at NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's quiet. A lot more outdoors. I never could get used to the segregation though. Pretty violent.

[Assistant] Your wife was a native of Hampton?

[User] No, she's a native of Washington, DC.

[Assistant] Okay, then she moved here. Both of you came from cities, remarkable cities, to a small town. Did she come to work at NACA?

[User] Yes, she came to work for NACA, right. Her dad was a superintendent of platemaking at the Government Printing Office in Washington, DC. Nice guy too. Unfortunately he retired and decided to call it a day. Isn't that terrible? Could have been smart like me and lived.

[Assistant] Have all the time that you have right now. So it'll be interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, she's a native of Washington, DC.

[Assistant] Okay, then she moved here. Both of you came from cities, remarkable cities, to a small town. Did she come to work at NACA?

[User] Yes, she came to work for NACA, right. Her dad was a superintendent of platemaking at the Government Printing Office in Washington, DC. Nice guy too. Unfortunately he retired and decided to call it a day. Isn't that terrible? Could have been smart like me and lived.

[Assistant] Have all the time that you have right now. So it'll be interesting.

[User] Would have been better. He was an interesting guy.

[Assistant] What does your son do in Virginia Beach other than live by himself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, she came to work for NACA, right. Her dad was a superintendent of platemaking at the Government Printing Office in Washington, DC. Nice guy too. Unfortunately he retired and decided to call it a day. Isn't that terrible? Could have been smart like me and lived.

[Assistant] Have all the time that you have right now. So it'll be interesting.

[User] Would have been better. He was an interesting guy.

[Assistant] What does your son do in Virginia Beach other than live by himself?

[User] He lives by himself in a condominium.

[Assistant] He didn't go into the engineering or science field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He lives by himself in a condominium.

[Assistant] He didn't go into the engineering or science field?

[User] Yes, he went to the University of Virginia and became a city planner over at the city called Chesapeake, part of Norfolk I think now. He did that for about 15 or 20 years, decided he had enough, and he just quit, just plain quit, just stopped.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] Yes, I'm amazed. He's been able to live off the money he earned from the time he quit, which was a long time ago. Still making out all right.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that you really missed talking with people and engineering part. So are there other parts of working at NACA or NASA that you look back on and remember fondly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he went to the University of Virginia and became a city planner over at the city called Chesapeake, part of Norfolk I think now. He did that for about 15 or 20 years, decided he had enough, and he just quit, just plain quit, just stopped.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] Yes, I'm amazed. He's been able to live off the money he earned from the time he quit, which was a long time ago. Still making out all right.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that you really missed talking with people and engineering part. So are there other parts of working at NACA or NASA that you look back on and remember fondly?

[User] I enjoyed all the time I spent with NACA, mostly because NACA was largely a research center then. Didn't hire people. They were bright guys at the laboratory, and many of them. I thought that was a fascinating period of time. Very serious people, very smart, very good researchers. They disappeared.

[Assistant] What was the reaction like with your coworkers when NACA was going to be absorbed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I'm amazed. He's been able to live off the money he earned from the time he quit, which was a long time ago. Still making out all right.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that you really missed talking with people and engineering part. So are there other parts of working at NACA or NASA that you look back on and remember fondly?

[User] I enjoyed all the time I spent with NACA, mostly because NACA was largely a research center then. Didn't hire people. They were bright guys at the laboratory, and many of them. I thought that was a fascinating period of time. Very serious people, very smart, very good researchers. They disappeared.

[Assistant] What was the reaction like with your coworkers when NACA was going to be absorbed.

[User] Not really very much. The people that worked in wind tunnels just continued in wind tunnels. In fact other than the fact that we did Lunar Orbiter and Viking, the lab didn't change much at all. It just went into high-speed airplanes more and more. Oh, and it did a little work on landing, spacesuits, composites. But by and large it just continued to do what it was doing before. Of course, all of space started here, including the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas], which all the guys lived here, worked here, then they moved down to Houston when [Lyndon B.] Johnson decided he needed an industry down there.

[Assistant] That's true. Now did you have any desire to become part of the STG [Space Task Group]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed all the time I spent with NACA, mostly because NACA was largely a research center then. Didn't hire people. They were bright guys at the laboratory, and many of them. I thought that was a fascinating period of time. Very serious people, very smart, very good researchers. They disappeared.

[Assistant] What was the reaction like with your coworkers when NACA was going to be absorbed.

[User] Not really very much. The people that worked in wind tunnels just continued in wind tunnels. In fact other than the fact that we did Lunar Orbiter and Viking, the lab didn't change much at all. It just went into high-speed airplanes more and more. Oh, and it did a little work on landing, spacesuits, composites. But by and large it just continued to do what it was doing before. Of course, all of space started here, including the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas], which all the guys lived here, worked here, then they moved down to Houston when [Lyndon B.] Johnson decided he needed an industry down there.

[Assistant] That's true. Now did you have any desire to become part of the STG [Space Task Group]?

[User] No. No, I was doing pretty interesting work. I didn't want to move.

[Assistant] Climate is better here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really very much. The people that worked in wind tunnels just continued in wind tunnels. In fact other than the fact that we did Lunar Orbiter and Viking, the lab didn't change much at all. It just went into high-speed airplanes more and more. Oh, and it did a little work on landing, spacesuits, composites. But by and large it just continued to do what it was doing before. Of course, all of space started here, including the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas], which all the guys lived here, worked here, then they moved down to Houston when [Lyndon B.] Johnson decided he needed an industry down there.

[Assistant] That's true. Now did you have any desire to become part of the STG [Space Task Group]?

[User] No. No, I was doing pretty interesting work. I didn't want to move.

[Assistant] Climate is better here.

[User] I don't know. There's much to be said for either of them. It can get hot down there. I've been down there when it was warm.

[Assistant] We have two seasons in summer, it's hot and hotter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, I was doing pretty interesting work. I didn't want to move.

[Assistant] Climate is better here.

[User] I don't know. There's much to be said for either of them. It can get hot down there. I've been down there when it was warm.

[Assistant] We have two seasons in summer, it's hot and hotter.

[User] Hot and wetter.

[Assistant] And wetter sometimes. So yes, sounds like you made a good decision.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. There's much to be said for either of them. It can get hot down there. I've been down there when it was warm.

[Assistant] We have two seasons in summer, it's hot and hotter.

[User] Hot and wetter.

[Assistant] And wetter sometimes. So yes, sounds like you made a good decision.

[User] It's a pretty lab though.

[Assistant] Yes, it's very nice how it's laid out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hot and wetter.

[Assistant] And wetter sometimes. So yes, sounds like you made a good decision.

[User] It's a pretty lab though.

[Assistant] Yes, it's very nice how it's laid out.

[User] I didn't mind visiting. I visited them quite a bit when we were doing Viking and quite a bit when we were doing the composites job too. They also did a lot of work on spacesuits that I fiddled around with a little bit from time to time.

[Assistant] That was interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a pretty lab though.

[Assistant] Yes, it's very nice how it's laid out.

[User] I didn't mind visiting. I visited them quite a bit when we were doing Viking and quite a bit when we were doing the composites job too. They also did a lot of work on spacesuits that I fiddled around with a little bit from time to time.

[Assistant] That was interesting.

[User] Yes, that's interesting.

[Assistant] Was there much difference in working with the different Centers when you had to go there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't mind visiting. I visited them quite a bit when we were doing Viking and quite a bit when we were doing the composites job too. They also did a lot of work on spacesuits that I fiddled around with a little bit from time to time.

[Assistant] That was interesting.

[User] Yes, that's interesting.

[Assistant] Was there much difference in working with the different Centers when you had to go there?

[User] Were the people different? No. No, pretty much the same all over. I was always struck by how good the people were in terms of intelligence and reaction to things, technically and otherwise. I miss that. I miss the interactions.

[Assistant] They're always busy doing something. That's true.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that's interesting.

[Assistant] Was there much difference in working with the different Centers when you had to go there?

[User] Were the people different? No. No, pretty much the same all over. I was always struck by how good the people were in terms of intelligence and reaction to things, technically and otherwise. I miss that. I miss the interactions.

[Assistant] They're always busy doing something. That's true.

[User] Always something going on, right.

[Assistant] Well, are there other thoughts that you can think of that you want to share with us this morning?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh yes. The only anomaly we had was that that antenna did pop up sometime. I’m not sure when it did, but we found a dent in the bottom of our helicopter, because it blew the top three or four sections off, and they went shooting on up and made a little ding in the bottom of the helicopter. But I never knew when that happened, when it finally decided to go. If you look at the pictures, there’s the stub of it. There’s like two sections sticking out of the top of the spacecraft when it’s sitting on the deck. Other than that, there were no anomalies. Everything worked just fine.

[Assistant] So the next step was you began training for the next [mission]. Or did you—

[User] No. We got what for that time was a live TV deal. The I’ve Got a Secret people called, and George and I and our wives got a paid trip to New York, and they put us on I’ve Got a Secret, which was kind of a—I don’t know. I think the panel just played with us, because there we [were], we were in civilian suits, but we had these sidewall haircuts, which was a real giveaway that we were military. Since it was just a few days after the flight, it wasn’t really difficult to figure out.

[Assistant] That was quite an experience, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes. For a couple of young guys, that was quite an experience. Let’s see. I was trying to remember who the panel were. Johnny Carson, Bess Meyerson. I don’t remember who the others were, Henry [Morgan]. Probably none of you ever saw him on that show.

[Assistant] We won’t confess that on a recording. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We got what for that time was a live TV deal. The I’ve Got a Secret people called, and George and I and our wives got a paid trip to New York, and they put us on I’ve Got a Secret, which was kind of a—I don’t know. I think the panel just played with us, because there we [were], we were in civilian suits, but we had these sidewall haircuts, which was a real giveaway that we were military. Since it was just a few days after the flight, it wasn’t really difficult to figure out.

[Assistant] That was quite an experience, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes. For a couple of young guys, that was quite an experience. Let’s see. I was trying to remember who the panel were. Johnny Carson, Bess Meyerson. I don’t remember who the others were, Henry [Morgan]. Probably none of you ever saw him on that show.

[Assistant] We won’t confess that on a recording. [Laughter]

[User] But that was an interesting time. It was kind of an interesting highlight from all the work we’d been doing, to get cleaned up and go to New York.

[Assistant] No kidding. That wasn’t a normal deployment for Marines at the time, was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. For a couple of young guys, that was quite an experience. Let’s see. I was trying to remember who the panel were. Johnny Carson, Bess Meyerson. I don’t remember who the others were, Henry [Morgan]. Probably none of you ever saw him on that show.

[Assistant] We won’t confess that on a recording. [Laughter]

[User] But that was an interesting time. It was kind of an interesting highlight from all the work we’d been doing, to get cleaned up and go to New York.

[Assistant] No kidding. That wasn’t a normal deployment for Marines at the time, was it?

[User] No. When I got back to the station, I got transferred to the Group Headquarters. There was, by that time, a Group Mercury Project Officer, because there was another squadron. The heavies, heavy helicopter squadron, had the mission of doing the retrieval in the event of a launch abort, so they would fly out. And there’s a whole story on—you can pick that up from Pete Armitage’s narrative, because he worked with them. I never did work with that squadron very much.\n\n But anyway, they transferred me over to the group to be the Group Project Officer, and I was there for about four months. Then my contract was up, and [I was] offered a position with the Space Task Group, and so I made that transition.

[Assistant] Was that before or after the Grissom—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They hired me, and I moved. That was all there was to it.

[Assistant] Who approached you about transferring over to NASA?

[User] I approached them. I talked to Pete Armitage and Bob Thompson, who were the people I had principally worked with for the last couple of years. We got it worked out, so that’s what happened.

[Assistant] Now space business was a new business. How did you decide that that’s where you wanted to move your career?

[User] You know, I worked at that decision. I had a friend who had gotten off active duty a few months before I did, who had gone to work with the airlines. He was calling me once a week, saying, “Man, you need to come and do this.” He [said], “Soon as I get through this first few months of probation,” he says, “I’m going to be making all kinds of money,” and so forth. And he was right for him, because he became the chief pilot for Continental Airlines. That was a pretty high position there.\n\n Our squadron flight surgeon told me that I ought to go to medical school. He said, “I’ll guarantee I’ll get you into—,” the medical school he had gone to. I had to give that some serious consideration, but wasn’t really, at that point, sure I wanted to dive into three or four years of really intense educational endeavor again.\n\n And [the STG] was just really appealing, because I knew a few of the people. I knew all the crew. I knew quite a few of the people at NASA, and I knew a lot about what the plans were, and I just really had a feeling I wanted to stay involved in that. So that’s what I did.

[Assistant] Even though it meant a move to Houston, you were ready to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in charge of the NESC. Then he moved up to the Chief Engineer job. Yes.

[Assistant] It was a separate entity.

[User] Yes. It reported directly to Headquarters. It was a tenant organization at Langley, and reported directly to the Chief Engineer. The Chief Engineer of course reports directly to the Administrator.

[Assistant] That was formed because of Columbia as you mentioned but also the Vision for Space Exploration announcement was in 2004 [by President George W. Bush], which was right around that time.

[User] Right. I was in on all of that. Let’s see. When did Griffin come in, ’05? Must have been 2005.

[Assistant] Yes. It was April.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It reported directly to Headquarters. It was a tenant organization at Langley, and reported directly to the Chief Engineer. The Chief Engineer of course reports directly to the Administrator.

[Assistant] That was formed because of Columbia as you mentioned but also the Vision for Space Exploration announcement was in 2004 [by President George W. Bush], which was right around that time.

[User] Right. I was in on all of that. Let’s see. When did Griffin come in, ’05? Must have been 2005.

[Assistant] Yes. It was April.

[User] Right when I became Center Director. He changed out almost all the Center Director positions. Most of them if not all of them. Yes, the Vision for Space Exploration came out. We were engaged in what Langley would provide to the Vision for Space Exploration. We lead Ares 1-X from NASA Langley. The kind of work that we had done in lightweight structures, the kind of thing that we had done in, again structurally based, but inflatable habitats was something that we were asked to do, bring that research into the vision. We did work in human factors. Things that we were doing in radiation protection, the lead was at Johnson, but we were on that team, and had done a lot of work over the years with that regard. We supported the Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama] for research and test on SLS [Space Launch System].

[Assistant] There were a lot of changes going on all across the Agency at that point, not just at Langley. Do you feel like that stovepiping was something that was a legacy of Langley from years past?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a lot of work with the historic preservation society. You had to work really closely with them, and then bring in various people to help preserve pieces of it. That was all part of the plan. We did that through the Smithsonian [Institution] and others had come in. It was just a lot of work. Our facilities guys did a tremendous job doing that work, staying closely tied, so that nobody put in any blocks to taking down the building.\n\n But I would say the history capturing within our new buildings wasn’t necessarily a part of that. It was more about the legacy, and honoring the legacy of that great place. I think that was what was most important. That was a big part of the culture of our Center.

[Assistant] Was there any pushback from the historic preservation people in Virginia?

[User] From my memory we worked pretty well with them, and we never had any roadblocks. But I think it’s because we were just so tightly working with them.

[Assistant] Keeping them informed.

[User] Keeping them informed.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had these celebrations about the buildings. Were there other things that you did during that time? Because things were changing. The footprint of Langley was changing. There were tunnels that were on the Air Force side that were being demolished, and I think that property was being given back to the Air Force.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From my memory we worked pretty well with them, and we never had any roadblocks. But I think it’s because we were just so tightly working with them.

[Assistant] Keeping them informed.

[User] Keeping them informed.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had these celebrations about the buildings. Were there other things that you did during that time? Because things were changing. The footprint of Langley was changing. There were tunnels that were on the Air Force side that were being demolished, and I think that property was being given back to the Air Force.

[User] Yes. Some of them were ours. Right.

[Assistant] Yes. There was a lot going on. The [Space] Shuttle Program was ending. The wind tunnels were going away. You did have a workforce and you had contractor personnel and different people I know at a lot of Centers were concerned about not having a job at the end of things. How did you keep them motivated through that time to keep pushing forward and to look to the future? Because you were building this for the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn’t even know. Yes. That’s changed.

[Assistant] Especially since Langley was the mother center.

[User] I know! Shocking! But we were able to change that.

[Assistant] It was the beginning. I think you were there for the 90th anniversary for Langley.

[User] Was there for the 90th of Langley and then the 95th I can remember distinctly. Neil Armstrong had come to the Center. I don’t know if he was on the ASAP, the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, or if he was on the NAC [NASA Advisory Council]. It may have been the NAC. He was at an advisory group, and he had come down to Langley, and we were in a group with the NAC. I was sitting there right by him, and he stood up just impromptu on his own right in that session, and he said, “There are a lot of people that would lay claim to greatness that have come out in the field of aeronautics. But this place. This place is where…” He just gave this impromptu passionate speech about all the things that had come out of NASA Langley. It was so incredible. It was just before our 95th.\n\n I knew he couldn’t come to the event, but I wanted to say his words, and I asked him, and he sent me those words and I read them at our 95th. It was just incredible. That was a really cool moment just from getting to see that.

[Assistant] Yes, be great if that had been taped or on film.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know! Shocking! But we were able to change that.

[Assistant] It was the beginning. I think you were there for the 90th anniversary for Langley.

[User] Was there for the 90th of Langley and then the 95th I can remember distinctly. Neil Armstrong had come to the Center. I don’t know if he was on the ASAP, the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, or if he was on the NAC [NASA Advisory Council]. It may have been the NAC. He was at an advisory group, and he had come down to Langley, and we were in a group with the NAC. I was sitting there right by him, and he stood up just impromptu on his own right in that session, and he said, “There are a lot of people that would lay claim to greatness that have come out in the field of aeronautics. But this place. This place is where…” He just gave this impromptu passionate speech about all the things that had come out of NASA Langley. It was so incredible. It was just before our 95th.\n\n I knew he couldn’t come to the event, but I wanted to say his words, and I asked him, and he sent me those words and I read them at our 95th. It was just incredible. That was a really cool moment just from getting to see that.

[Assistant] Yes, be great if that had been taped or on film.

[User] I know. I wish we had it on film.

[Assistant] Being the first woman Center Director and then being there for those anniversaries, you talked about that before and how that wasn’t your main focus. You didn’t really think about it until I believe it was the person that was cleaning your office came and gave you a hug.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was there for the 90th of Langley and then the 95th I can remember distinctly. Neil Armstrong had come to the Center. I don’t know if he was on the ASAP, the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, or if he was on the NAC [NASA Advisory Council]. It may have been the NAC. He was at an advisory group, and he had come down to Langley, and we were in a group with the NAC. I was sitting there right by him, and he stood up just impromptu on his own right in that session, and he said, “There are a lot of people that would lay claim to greatness that have come out in the field of aeronautics. But this place. This place is where…” He just gave this impromptu passionate speech about all the things that had come out of NASA Langley. It was so incredible. It was just before our 95th.\n\n I knew he couldn’t come to the event, but I wanted to say his words, and I asked him, and he sent me those words and I read them at our 95th. It was just incredible. That was a really cool moment just from getting to see that.

[Assistant] Yes, be great if that had been taped or on film.

[User] I know. I wish we had it on film.

[Assistant] Being the first woman Center Director and then being there for those anniversaries, you talked about that before and how that wasn’t your main focus. You didn’t really think about it until I believe it was the person that was cleaning your office came and gave you a hug.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Katherine Johnson, you mentioned her the last time and how now the building is named after her. But there were a lot of changes. STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] education was starting to become more important during the time you were there. Talk about what you did as a Center Director—you mentioned the educational aspect—to encourage women—other than being a role model, which you were—but any other things that you did while you were there to encourage women or students.