[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The point person in that case was Mike Musick. It was Civil War stuff.

[Assistant] It was discovered somehow ...

[User] Yes, it was discovered, I think Mike is the one who discovered it. Documents were put on the market. The man went to jail eventually.

[Assistant] Something that is happening again fairly recently.

[User] Something you always have to worry about as an archivist.

[Assistant] And it's very hard to detect. It's interesting how it was detected. Can you talk about your relationship with the archival profession in general? You talked a little about the international archivists but were you involved in the Society ofAmerican Archivists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was discovered, I think Mike is the one who discovered it. Documents were put on the market. The man went to jail eventually.

[Assistant] Something that is happening again fairly recently.

[User] Something you always have to worry about as an archivist.

[Assistant] And it's very hard to detect. It's interesting how it was detected. Can you talk about your relationship with the archival profession in general? You talked a little about the international archivists but were you involved in the Society ofAmerican Archivists?

[User] Yes, I was involved from the beginning. I was one of those people who thought belonging to a national organization was a part of your job or your life as an archivist. I had gone to the AHA and the OAH as an historian/teacher. I hired on in September 1969 and the SAA was in October. It was in Washington so I went up. I always found it very beneficial to get to know other archivists and get outside the National Archives. Get some perspective on what the profession was like. Later I got involved in giving papers up in Canada. The Association of Canadian Archivists is really a great organization. It's much smaller than the SAA. A lot.more fun.

[Assistant] They really talk to one another.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something you always have to worry about as an archivist.

[Assistant] And it's very hard to detect. It's interesting how it was detected. Can you talk about your relationship with the archival profession in general? You talked a little about the international archivists but were you involved in the Society ofAmerican Archivists?

[User] Yes, I was involved from the beginning. I was one of those people who thought belonging to a national organization was a part of your job or your life as an archivist. I had gone to the AHA and the OAH as an historian/teacher. I hired on in September 1969 and the SAA was in October. It was in Washington so I went up. I always found it very beneficial to get to know other archivists and get outside the National Archives. Get some perspective on what the profession was like. Later I got involved in giving papers up in Canada. The Association of Canadian Archivists is really a great organization. It's much smaller than the SAA. A lot.more fun.

[Assistant] They really talk to one another.

[User] I was involved in the founding ofthe Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives Conference. I stopped going to that after a number ofyears but I was still asked to give papers and I did. It was the same kind of thing as going to the historical associations; getting to know people.

[Assistant] light, that's really what it's all about. I guess maybe I have another question; maybe you want to think about it a little bit. Ifyou were providing advice to a newly hired archivist today, one ofthe one's we hired a year ago, what would that advice be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was involved from the beginning. I was one of those people who thought belonging to a national organization was a part of your job or your life as an archivist. I had gone to the AHA and the OAH as an historian/teacher. I hired on in September 1969 and the SAA was in October. It was in Washington so I went up. I always found it very beneficial to get to know other archivists and get outside the National Archives. Get some perspective on what the profession was like. Later I got involved in giving papers up in Canada. The Association of Canadian Archivists is really a great organization. It's much smaller than the SAA. A lot.more fun.

[Assistant] They really talk to one another.

[User] I was involved in the founding ofthe Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives Conference. I stopped going to that after a number ofyears but I was still asked to give papers and I did. It was the same kind of thing as going to the historical associations; getting to know people.

[Assistant] light, that's really what it's all about. I guess maybe I have another question; maybe you want to think about it a little bit. Ifyou were providing advice to a newly hired archivist today, one ofthe one's we hired a year ago, what would that advice be?

[User] Learn as much about electronic records as you can.

[Assistant] That was certainly a plus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved in the founding ofthe Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives Conference. I stopped going to that after a number ofyears but I was still asked to give papers and I did. It was the same kind of thing as going to the historical associations; getting to know people.

[Assistant] light, that's really what it's all about. I guess maybe I have another question; maybe you want to think about it a little bit. Ifyou were providing advice to a newly hired archivist today, one ofthe one's we hired a year ago, what would that advice be?

[User] Learn as much about electronic records as you can.

[Assistant] That was certainly a plus.

[User] I mean when I was being hired there were people who came to the National Archives with PhDs in history. I only had a MA. I didn't think that was a problem, but certainly the leadership in the National Archives was looking for people who had a very solid background in American history. Over the years, I don't know when it changed, maybe 1990. We desperately needed people who could handle electronic records. I remember we hired a trainee, Kate Snodgrass, in 1997. She had some background in electronic records. The Legislative C.enter had all kinds of, not junk but electronic records that had no provenance or much documentation'. We didn't know what to do with them. I asked her in her CIDS paper to put that stuff together and she did a wonderful job. She did it without even doubting that she could do it.

[Assistant] That seems like good advice. I think I have asked most ofthe questions that are on the Assembly's list. Is there a topic that we haven't discussed that you would like to talk more about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Learn as much about electronic records as you can.

[Assistant] That was certainly a plus.

[User] I mean when I was being hired there were people who came to the National Archives with PhDs in history. I only had a MA. I didn't think that was a problem, but certainly the leadership in the National Archives was looking for people who had a very solid background in American history. Over the years, I don't know when it changed, maybe 1990. We desperately needed people who could handle electronic records. I remember we hired a trainee, Kate Snodgrass, in 1997. She had some background in electronic records. The Legislative C.enter had all kinds of, not junk but electronic records that had no provenance or much documentation'. We didn't know what to do with them. I asked her in her CIDS paper to put that stuff together and she did a wonderful job. She did it without even doubting that she could do it.

[Assistant] That seems like good advice. I think I have asked most ofthe questions that are on the Assembly's list. Is there a topic that we haven't discussed that you would like to talk more about?

[User] This is kind ofoutside the National Archives, but I had a group offriends here who played, basketball together. Later we played softball together that started exactly thirty years ago.

[Assistant] Just identity the people who were part ofthat group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean when I was being hired there were people who came to the National Archives with PhDs in history. I only had a MA. I didn't think that was a problem, but certainly the leadership in the National Archives was looking for people who had a very solid background in American history. Over the years, I don't know when it changed, maybe 1990. We desperately needed people who could handle electronic records. I remember we hired a trainee, Kate Snodgrass, in 1997. She had some background in electronic records. The Legislative C.enter had all kinds of, not junk but electronic records that had no provenance or much documentation'. We didn't know what to do with them. I asked her in her CIDS paper to put that stuff together and she did a wonderful job. She did it without even doubting that she could do it.

[Assistant] That seems like good advice. I think I have asked most ofthe questions that are on the Assembly's list. Is there a topic that we haven't discussed that you would like to talk more about?

[User] This is kind ofoutside the National Archives, but I had a group offriends here who played, basketball together. Later we played softball together that started exactly thirty years ago.

[Assistant] Just identity the people who were part ofthat group.

[User] There was Gerry Haines, Doug Helms, John Butler, Tim Nenninger, John Vernon, Bill Grover, Clarence Lyons, Roger Bruns, George Briscoe, and others.

[Assistant] How did the group get started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was Gerry Haines, Doug Helms, John Butler, Tim Nenninger, John Vernon, Bill Grover, Clarence Lyons, Roger Bruns, George Briscoe, and others.

[Assistant] How did the group get started?

[User] It was just conversation at the snack bar I think. "Well why don't we get together and play." That was in 1976. We got a gym where we could play basketball, and then we decided we would play softball also. We got into the DC federal league, and the Arlington league. This group was all archivists, and we had all been jocks at one time or another. It was one great evening for us. Eventually we started going to a bar after the games.

[Assistant] What bar.

[User] Key Hole Inn in Arlington. It no longer exists but there is still a group that meets on Wednesday evenings. The athletic activity and all the banter and laughter made the next day at the Archives a lot easier.

[Assistant] I know I can imagine. Did you talk about business?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just conversation at the snack bar I think. "Well why don't we get together and play." That was in 1976. We got a gym where we could play basketball, and then we decided we would play softball also. We got into the DC federal league, and the Arlington league. This group was all archivists, and we had all been jocks at one time or another. It was one great evening for us. Eventually we started going to a bar after the games.

[Assistant] What bar.

[User] Key Hole Inn in Arlington. It no longer exists but there is still a group that meets on Wednesday evenings. The athletic activity and all the banter and laughter made the next day at the Archives a lot easier.

[Assistant] I know I can imagine. Did you talk about business?

[User] Oh yes, much too much.

[Assistant] I think it does help to have a different perspective on your colleagues. I don't know ifthat is happening today; that people are socializing outside the office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Key Hole Inn in Arlington. It no longer exists but there is still a group that meets on Wednesday evenings. The athletic activity and all the banter and laughter made the next day at the Archives a lot easier.

[Assistant] I know I can imagine. Did you talk about business?

[User] Oh yes, much too much.

[Assistant] I think it does help to have a different perspective on your colleagues. I don't know ifthat is happening today; that people are socializing outside the office.

[User] I have had similar conversations about our generation ofarchivists. We were organizers and we just org'!Ilized a softball and basketball teams. We organized the Assembly.

[Assistant] Weren't you involved with ...?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, much too much.

[Assistant] I think it does help to have a different perspective on your colleagues. I don't know ifthat is happening today; that people are socializing outside the office.

[User] I have had similar conversations about our generation ofarchivists. We were organizers and we just org'!Ilized a softball and basketball teams. We organized the Assembly.

[Assistant] Weren't you involved with ...?

[User] Yes, yes

[Assistant] Do you want to talk a little about the Assembly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have had similar conversations about our generation ofarchivists. We were organizers and we just org'!Ilized a softball and basketball teams. We organized the Assembly.

[Assistant] Weren't you involved with ...?

[User] Yes, yes

[Assistant] Do you want to talk a little about the Assembly?

[User] Yes, in 1979 the Administrator of General Services wanted to send records on various subjects to various cities and set up regional archives. It got to that far: There had been a long effort to get the National Archives independent ofGSA. It got such that there was a committee ofemployees in 1980. January 1980 to oppose the regionalization of records. In January 1980 John Rurnbarger, Virginia Purdy, Gerry Haines, myself, and others decided to put a staff organization together that would pursue independence for the National Archives. And fight offthis idea sending records all over the country. That is how we got started.

[Assistant] How did it actually happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes

[Assistant] Do you want to talk a little about the Assembly?

[User] Yes, in 1979 the Administrator of General Services wanted to send records on various subjects to various cities and set up regional archives. It got to that far: There had been a long effort to get the National Archives independent ofGSA. It got such that there was a committee ofemployees in 1980. January 1980 to oppose the regionalization of records. In January 1980 John Rurnbarger, Virginia Purdy, Gerry Haines, myself, and others decided to put a staff organization together that would pursue independence for the National Archives. And fight offthis idea sending records all over the country. That is how we got started.

[Assistant] How did it actually happen?

[User] The founding committee issued a statement and asked staffmembers to meet for an organizational meeting. We met in the old auditorium ofArchives I on a Saturday morning. There were about 85 people and television cameras. It was agreed to establish the Assembly. Virginia Purdy was elected President, and quarterly meetings and a newsletter were started. Two years later I was president.

[Assistant] You testified before Congress as President?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, in 1979 the Administrator of General Services wanted to send records on various subjects to various cities and set up regional archives. It got to that far: There had been a long effort to get the National Archives independent ofGSA. It got such that there was a committee ofemployees in 1980. January 1980 to oppose the regionalization of records. In January 1980 John Rurnbarger, Virginia Purdy, Gerry Haines, myself, and others decided to put a staff organization together that would pursue independence for the National Archives. And fight offthis idea sending records all over the country. That is how we got started.

[Assistant] How did it actually happen?

[User] The founding committee issued a statement and asked staffmembers to meet for an organizational meeting. We met in the old auditorium ofArchives I on a Saturday morning. There were about 85 people and television cameras. It was agreed to establish the Assembly. Virginia Purdy was elected President, and quarterly meetings and a newsletter were started. Two years later I was president.

[Assistant] You testified before Congress as President?

[User] Yes, I testified before the House Subcommittee ofGovernment Operations. It was looking at the National Archives and GSA. That was a part of the general movement that led to the independence in 1985.

[Assistant] Did you have to have your remarks approved by someone before you could present.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The founding committee issued a statement and asked staffmembers to meet for an organizational meeting. We met in the old auditorium ofArchives I on a Saturday morning. There were about 85 people and television cameras. It was agreed to establish the Assembly. Virginia Purdy was elected President, and quarterly meetings and a newsletter were started. Two years later I was president.

[Assistant] You testified before Congress as President?

[User] Yes, I testified before the House Subcommittee ofGovernment Operations. It was looking at the National Archives and GSA. That was a part of the general movement that led to the independence in 1985.

[Assistant] Did you have to have your remarks approved by someone before you could present.

[User] I don't know if you knew this, but you were on the Executive Board at the time. I did a draft and then the Board did a great review. I thought we really had a very good statement. Clarence Lyons was my supervisor at the time and I told him I was going to do this. I was going to take time off. The Archivist at the time was Bob Warner and I thought he would ask. to read through my remarks, or ask to say something to me or have some representative say something to me, but I never talked to them at all. I was not on the panel that he was on. There were two other organizations that were testifying at the time. I didn't get any reaction from the front office before or afterwards.

[Assistant] That's wonderful really; it really could have been otherwise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I testified before the House Subcommittee ofGovernment Operations. It was looking at the National Archives and GSA. That was a part of the general movement that led to the independence in 1985.

[Assistant] Did you have to have your remarks approved by someone before you could present.

[User] I don't know if you knew this, but you were on the Executive Board at the time. I did a draft and then the Board did a great review. I thought we really had a very good statement. Clarence Lyons was my supervisor at the time and I told him I was going to do this. I was going to take time off. The Archivist at the time was Bob Warner and I thought he would ask. to read through my remarks, or ask to say something to me or have some representative say something to me, but I never talked to them at all. I was not on the panel that he was on. There were two other organizations that were testifying at the time. I didn't get any reaction from the front office before or afterwards.

[Assistant] That's wonderful really; it really could have been otherwise.

[User] They had their own agenda and the Assembly was not part ofthat agenda: The Society of American Archivists got very much involved in that whole period also, and we were very happy to see the Assembly being represented.

[Assistant] It was a good moment. It was a good experience. I remember being worried at the tiine. I was in the same position being in line for the presidency and wondering if! would have to testify at some point and being relieved it never happened. I'm impressed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if you knew this, but you were on the Executive Board at the time. I did a draft and then the Board did a great review. I thought we really had a very good statement. Clarence Lyons was my supervisor at the time and I told him I was going to do this. I was going to take time off. The Archivist at the time was Bob Warner and I thought he would ask. to read through my remarks, or ask to say something to me or have some representative say something to me, but I never talked to them at all. I was not on the panel that he was on. There were two other organizations that were testifying at the time. I didn't get any reaction from the front office before or afterwards.

[Assistant] That's wonderful really; it really could have been otherwise.

[User] They had their own agenda and the Assembly was not part ofthat agenda: The Society of American Archivists got very much involved in that whole period also, and we were very happy to see the Assembly being represented.

[Assistant] It was a good moment. It was a good experience. I remember being worried at the tiine. I was in the same position being in line for the presidency and wondering if! would have to testify at some point and being relieved it never happened. I'm impressed.

[User] We had a good statement and the two Congressmen were happy to hear from us.

[Assistant] Well the Assembly is thriving. It was definitely on ofthe things that started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had their own agenda and the Assembly was not part ofthat agenda: The Society of American Archivists got very much involved in that whole period also, and we were very happy to see the Assembly being represented.

[Assistant] It was a good moment. It was a good experience. I remember being worried at the tiine. I was in the same position being in line for the presidency and wondering if! would have to testify at some point and being relieved it never happened. I'm impressed.

[User] We had a good statement and the two Congressmen were happy to hear from us.

[Assistant] Well the Assembly is thriving. It was definitely on ofthe things that started.

[User] Well good.

[Assistant] Well how many survivors ofthe Key Hole Inn are there now? I guess some folks have moved away?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a good statement and the two Congressmen were happy to hear from us.

[Assistant] Well the Assembly is thriving. It was definitely on ofthe things that started.

[User] Well good.

[Assistant] Well how many survivors ofthe Key Hole Inn are there now? I guess some folks have moved away?

[User] John Butler is in California and Clarence Lyons is in Georgia. Doug Helms and I are still going on Wednesday night. We have added some younger people. It will go on.

[Assistant] Well anything else you would like to ....


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well good.

[Assistant] Well how many survivors ofthe Key Hole Inn are there now? I guess some folks have moved away?

[User] John Butler is in California and Clarence Lyons is in Georgia. Doug Helms and I are still going on Wednesday night. We have added some younger people. It will go on.

[Assistant] Well anything else you would like to ....

[User] I can't think of anything else.

[Assistant] I am trying to think ifthere is something that we haven't talked about or any comments in particular about the records you worked with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] John Butler is in California and Clarence Lyons is in Georgia. Doug Helms and I are still going on Wednesday night. We have added some younger people. It will go on.

[Assistant] Well anything else you would like to ....

[User] I can't think of anything else.

[Assistant] I am trying to think ifthere is something that we haven't talked about or any comments in particular about the records you worked with.

[User] I loved them; I was absolutely fascinated by the Supreme Court and the Department of Justice records. When I took over Legislative, I had never worked in legislative archives. That was really fun to deal with. I enjoyed the arguments over freedom of information and those questions and issues. I did several papers on those questions, so that was always a fun part ofmy work that was right along with the records.

[Assistant] Were you making appraisal decisions at points in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't think of anything else.

[Assistant] I am trying to think ifthere is something that we haven't talked about or any comments in particular about the records you worked with.

[User] I loved them; I was absolutely fascinated by the Supreme Court and the Department of Justice records. When I took over Legislative, I had never worked in legislative archives. That was really fun to deal with. I enjoyed the arguments over freedom of information and those questions and issues. I did several papers on those questions, so that was always a fun part ofmy work that was right along with the records.

[Assistant] Were you making appraisal decisions at points in your career?

[User] As division director in Reference and Legislative, I got to see appraisal decisions. I didn't object to very many ofthem. Trudy Peterson thought that I should get more involved, but I didn't. Appraisal was always very important. Given the FBI experience you always had that mind set in your head about what had to be done.

[Assistant] Any memories ofthe FBI project that is particularly memorable? Let me ask first, were you the one who drew up the list ofphrases, my treasured possession? [Yes]! have to say that's wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I loved them; I was absolutely fascinated by the Supreme Court and the Department of Justice records. When I took over Legislative, I had never worked in legislative archives. That was really fun to deal with. I enjoyed the arguments over freedom of information and those questions and issues. I did several papers on those questions, so that was always a fun part ofmy work that was right along with the records.

[Assistant] Were you making appraisal decisions at points in your career?

[User] As division director in Reference and Legislative, I got to see appraisal decisions. I didn't object to very many ofthem. Trudy Peterson thought that I should get more involved, but I didn't. Appraisal was always very important. Given the FBI experience you always had that mind set in your head about what had to be done.

[Assistant] Any memories ofthe FBI project that is particularly memorable? Let me ask first, were you the one who drew up the list ofphrases, my treasured possession? [Yes]! have to say that's wonderful.

[User] I think.the camaraderie and the fun that we had, was just wonderful. We were dealing with very important questions under court order knowing that things were not going well for the Archives and.the FBI. We were fortunate to have the records manager at the FBI. His name was Bob Scherrer. If he hadn't been there, I don't think that project would have succeeded. He did a wonderful job. Jim O'Neill did a wonderful job ofsupervising fifteen very independent archivists.

[Assistant] I remember our trip to Puerto Rico, and our trip going the wrong way down the one way street. We weren't arrested and that was good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know whether I would say that that’s true. I think that they wanted me to participate in those negotiations because they needed lawyers with international relations expertise. That’s probably more it than the Russia background. Obviously the Russia background didn’t hurt, but there were other people at NASA who had much better Russia experience and expertise than I had. What they wanted was a good international lawyer. While they couldn’t find a good one, they did find me.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you helped with that team that was negotiating those agreements for ISS. Did you work any on the negotiations for Shuttle-Mir [Program]?

[User] No. Shuttle-Mir was concluded just before I came to NASA. The agreements were concluded before I came to NASA. The program itself was not.

[Assistant] Of course, during Shuttle-Mir we were also working on agreements for Russians to fly on the Shuttle. That continued. Did you have any involvement in any of that at that point?

[User] Some, but fairly limited. I was much more on the sidelines for Shuttle-Mir and the Russian cosmonauts on the Shuttle activities. Much more involved in the ISS IGA and MOUs [Memoranda of Understanding].

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the IGA and the MOU and the work with that team. Were you their counsel as they were working through those negotiations? Talk about your role with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we don’t. We don’t have appropriations for that kind of stuff anyway. Why is it that we would be paying so much money to other agencies for services not really rendered? It doesn’t make a lot of sense. The transfer of money itself between agencies costs money. If you can avoid it, avoid it.

[Assistant] When you were talking about the Code of Conduct, it made me think of something. I don’t know if you had anything to do with it or not—you’d already moved out of that area. I think you’d moved into the position as Manager for International Technology Transfer Policy and Export Control by that time. But in 2001, again because of some of their financial difficulties, the Russians wanted to launch Dennis [A.] Tito [space tourist] to the ISS.

[User] And they did.

[Assistant] Yes. But there was a lot of pushback from NASA. How did that relate, or did it at all, to the Code of Conduct? Was that used as maybe one of the reasons? I know training had a lot to do with it. He wasn’t trained as an astronaut, but legally what were the concerns NASA had?

[User] First of all, I will say I was not an intimate participant in the Tito experience. I have an understanding of why there was some concern with the whole spaceflight participant idea, not just him in particular. Different way of doing business, all this other sort of stuff. But I’m probably not the best apologist for those reasons, so I really won’t speak to it.\n\n What I will say is that as a spaceflight participant he was subject to the International Space Station Code of Conduct and had to formalize his assent to that. That’s probably all I should say.

[Assistant] Okay. Around 2000, that’s when you moved to that other position where you were actually the Manager for that area. Do you want to talk about that and why you took that position? Was that just a natural move for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Huge, yes. I was responsible. Columbia was 2003 in February, right?

[Assistant] Right.

[User] By that time I don’t think I was the Director of the Office yet. There was a period of time where I was both the Export Control Administrator and the Director until I was able to hire somebody.\n\n When Columbia happened there of course were the investigation panels, and the [NASA] Administrator [Sean O’Keefe] was unambiguously clear that he did not want NASA to be seen as if it was shielding information from the public or from the accident investigation panels [Columbia Accident Investigation Board].\n\n There was an awful lot of Space Shuttle design and operations information for which I personally authorized the public release. I’m talking boxes of stuff, all of which I went through with my staff. I would not have done it but for the fact that, “We were going to be transparent, and we’re going to give them whatever it is they need, and we’re going to let the public have access to whatever it is the investigators need access to, in every possible instance that we can.” So we did.\n\n I don’t think that it had an impact to our national security. In fact I’m fairly certain that I’ve seen no evidence of that, but it was nonetheless a sensitive call to make. I was the one responsible. If it was the wrong call I certainly would not be here talking to you. It wasn’t my idea, but I was responsible. Obviously wasn’t my idea, because I wouldn’t have come up with it. But I was the one that made the determination to go ahead and let these things go.

[Assistant] This you said was mainly the Shuttle design and—

[User] Operations, yes. Operations, and definitely there was some design information in there.

[Assistant] Where did these boxes of information come from that you went through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Operations, yes. Operations, and definitely there was some design information in there.

[Assistant] Where did these boxes of information come from that you went through?

[User] They came from three places. I think they came from what’s now HEO, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, which at the time was the Space Operations Mission Directorate. Came from the Shuttle Program Office. I think we got a bunch of stuff from JSC, too. KSC, JSC, and the programs up here.

[Assistant] By releasing that information, did you just release it for public consumption? Or was it something that if someone requested something then it was open and they could get it?

[User] I think the latter. I don’t think the stuff wound up online, but it was provided to the accident investigators, the review boards. I signed papers that cleared it for public release. Having done that, it’s important to make the distinction that you just made.\n\n Under the export control rules, something is in the public domain if it’s been authorized by the relevant government agency for public release. It does not require that it actually be published. All it needs in order to be in the public domain is that somebody has said that it can be. If that’s documented, and it is in the case of Columbia, then it is publicly available and the export control laws do not apply.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They came from three places. I think they came from what’s now HEO, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, which at the time was the Space Operations Mission Directorate. Came from the Shuttle Program Office. I think we got a bunch of stuff from JSC, too. KSC, JSC, and the programs up here.

[Assistant] By releasing that information, did you just release it for public consumption? Or was it something that if someone requested something then it was open and they could get it?

[User] I think the latter. I don’t think the stuff wound up online, but it was provided to the accident investigators, the review boards. I signed papers that cleared it for public release. Having done that, it’s important to make the distinction that you just made.\n\n Under the export control rules, something is in the public domain if it’s been authorized by the relevant government agency for public release. It does not require that it actually be published. All it needs in order to be in the public domain is that somebody has said that it can be. If that’s documented, and it is in the case of Columbia, then it is publicly available and the export control laws do not apply.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that before.

[User] If you want to look it up it’s in Title 22 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 125.4(b)(13).

[Assistant] You still remember all these numbers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the latter. I don’t think the stuff wound up online, but it was provided to the accident investigators, the review boards. I signed papers that cleared it for public release. Having done that, it’s important to make the distinction that you just made.\n\n Under the export control rules, something is in the public domain if it’s been authorized by the relevant government agency for public release. It does not require that it actually be published. All it needs in order to be in the public domain is that somebody has said that it can be. If that’s documented, and it is in the case of Columbia, then it is publicly available and the export control laws do not apply.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that before.

[User] If you want to look it up it’s in Title 22 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 125.4(b)(13).

[Assistant] You still remember all these numbers.

[User] I pushed out useful knowledge to remember these things. I’m worried about what it is that I forgot that is somehow occupied by these citations now.

[Assistant] I do understand that, useless information that you can’t forget. Let’s talk about the announcement in 2004, after Columbia, for the Vision for Space Exploration when President [George W.] Bush announced that the Shuttle was going to close out but ISS would be built, and going back to Moon and Mars. Did that Vision have any effect on your area, too? Were there different things that you had to start working toward? I don’t know if you were Director at that point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you want to look it up it’s in Title 22 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 125.4(b)(13).

[Assistant] You still remember all these numbers.

[User] I pushed out useful knowledge to remember these things. I’m worried about what it is that I forgot that is somehow occupied by these citations now.

[Assistant] I do understand that, useless information that you can’t forget. Let’s talk about the announcement in 2004, after Columbia, for the Vision for Space Exploration when President [George W.] Bush announced that the Shuttle was going to close out but ISS would be built, and going back to Moon and Mars. Did that Vision have any effect on your area, too? Were there different things that you had to start working toward? I don’t know if you were Director at that point.

[User] By that time I was the Director of the Office. As the Director, I was the lead for NASA’s interagency relations with the rest of the government, including in policy stuff. Just to be clear, the Vision for Space Exploration was not your garden-variety National Space Policy exercise. This was something that did not involve the routine kind of staff-level negotiations and interactions with all of the affected agencies in the way that the President’s National Space Policy did; or the National Space Transportation Policy; or the Commercial Remote Sensing Policy; or the [Space-Based] Position, Navigation, and Timing Policy; or those other space-related policies which were much more of an interagency communal development effort led by the National Security Council and the Office of Science and Technology Policy at the White House.\n\n The Vision for Space Exploration was not that. People like me, I wouldn’t even consider myself a bit player in that. I was told what it will be and then that was it. It was my job to go out and work with the other agencies to make it happen. That is one policy that was different in its formulation from all the others.

[Assistant] That is interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In high school I was the editor and sports editor of our newspaper, and we won some national award. One of the schools here in the state, if you were the editor and you had these awards, you could get a ride, a scholarship. So, I assumed my future was in journalism. My guidance counselor, though, saw my scores from my ACT [college admissions test] and said, “You need to go into engineering.” I had no idea what that meant because I had no role models.\n\n I wasn’t from here. I wasn’t fortunate like a lot of people from Huntsville, they lived and breathed engineering. I had no idea what it was. Honestly—and I’ve said this a bunch of times—I said, “I thought I was going to be driving a train.” I thought that’s what engineers did. But that’s what started me down that path going forward, and why I went into engineering. Not because I had any great passion, it’s just what the test scores said I should do.

[Assistant] Your father was an educator, is that correct?

[User] Yes, he was a professor at the University of Montevallo [Alabama], a little south of Birmingham down there. He taught math to start with and then became an educator of educators. I used to see my dad in my classrooms a lot because he was grading the student teachers that were there, so that was always an interesting dynamic.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. I heard that you described yourself as a “guinea pig” for him more than once, I think.

[User] Yes, he used to use me in his classes, and for Alabama Public Television. He had a 30-minute science show that he used to do, like a Mr. Wizard [Donald J. Herbert, children’s science television educator] kind of thing, and so I was on there a couple times as well.

[Assistant] I bet that was quite an experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was a professor at the University of Montevallo [Alabama], a little south of Birmingham down there. He taught math to start with and then became an educator of educators. I used to see my dad in my classrooms a lot because he was grading the student teachers that were there, so that was always an interesting dynamic.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. I heard that you described yourself as a “guinea pig” for him more than once, I think.

[User] Yes, he used to use me in his classes, and for Alabama Public Television. He had a 30-minute science show that he used to do, like a Mr. Wizard [Donald J. Herbert, children’s science television educator] kind of thing, and so I was on there a couple times as well.

[Assistant] I bet that was quite an experience.

[User] I just barely remember it. But I do remember him tricking me with the beakers - the short fat beaker and the tall skinny beaker and then the one in the middle. He’d say, “Which one had more water?” Of course they all had the same, which was unfair. He was just trying to show the students how people think. They think differently from whatever their background is.

[Assistant] That’s a good lesson to carry on into your career I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he used to use me in his classes, and for Alabama Public Television. He had a 30-minute science show that he used to do, like a Mr. Wizard [Donald J. Herbert, children’s science television educator] kind of thing, and so I was on there a couple times as well.

[Assistant] I bet that was quite an experience.

[User] I just barely remember it. But I do remember him tricking me with the beakers - the short fat beaker and the tall skinny beaker and then the one in the middle. He’d say, “Which one had more water?” Of course they all had the same, which was unfair. He was just trying to show the students how people think. They think differently from whatever their background is.

[Assistant] That’s a good lesson to carry on into your career I would imagine.

[User] Oh, yes. My dad is my hero. He gave me all sorts of lessons. More than I care to admit.

[Assistant] When your guidance counselor, because of your ACT scores, said, “You need to become an engineer,” what did you do? Where did you apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just barely remember it. But I do remember him tricking me with the beakers - the short fat beaker and the tall skinny beaker and then the one in the middle. He’d say, “Which one had more water?” Of course they all had the same, which was unfair. He was just trying to show the students how people think. They think differently from whatever their background is.

[Assistant] That’s a good lesson to carry on into your career I would imagine.

[User] Oh, yes. My dad is my hero. He gave me all sorts of lessons. More than I care to admit.

[Assistant] When your guidance counselor, because of your ACT scores, said, “You need to become an engineer,” what did you do? Where did you apply?

[User] I went to University of Alabama [Tuscaloosa]. I probably didn’t have much choice there. In the state of Alabama you pretty much decided at birth whether you were going to be Alabama or Auburn [University, Alabama]. Most of my family was Alabama, so I went there, for no other reason than that’s where I knew I was pretty much going to go, since maybe like one year old.

[Assistant] When you first started taking those classes that would lead you into an engineering field, what was it like for you? Since you thought at first you’d be driving a train.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Kyrgyzstan, yeah.

[Assistant] And Kyrgyzstan. So let's go back to the very beginning. Let's talk about who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where, where were you born? Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in Texas and Oklahoma, about ten years in Texas and seven years in Oklahoma. And my family is still back there. So I go back to Oklahoma several times a year. And I went to school, uh, for two years at Grinnell College. So that's Midwest, Midwest, and Midwest.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes.

[User] And then during the Vietnam War protest years, I felt like nothing was happening in Iowa. So I transferred to Madison, where things were happening.

[Assistant] This is during your undergraduate years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Texas and Oklahoma, about ten years in Texas and seven years in Oklahoma. And my family is still back there. So I go back to Oklahoma several times a year. And I went to school, uh, for two years at Grinnell College. So that's Midwest, Midwest, and Midwest.

[Assistant] Yes. Yes.

[User] And then during the Vietnam War protest years, I felt like nothing was happening in Iowa. So I transferred to Madison, where things were happening.

[Assistant] This is during your undergraduate years?

[User] Yeah, my undergraduate years. And then I've been in Wisconsin ever since.

[Assistant] Ever since then. Wonderful. And you're not a kid fresh out of college now. You're in your, you don't have to say how old you are, but you're somewhere I would guess in your fifties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my undergraduate years. And then I've been in Wisconsin ever since.

[Assistant] Ever since then. Wonderful. And you're not a kid fresh out of college now. You're in your, you don't have to say how old you are, but you're somewhere I would guess in your fifties.

[User] Yeah, you're, you're, you're generous. A little older than that. But yeah, when I got to Peace Corps, when I got to Lesotho, they, they. Everyone always introduced me, the younger volunteers introduced me, "And this is the oldest volunteer in our country." I thought of myself, especially at that time as very young, and I thought of the 20 somethings as my peers so.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But then, you know, in that country, to be that old, to be, you know, more than 45 years old for a woman was significant. So I did accept the label nkhono, or grandmother, with more grace.

[Assistant] Very good. Let's go way back. Let's talk about your childhood. You, you were in Texas. You were in Oklahoma. Where did you go to high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, you're, you're, you're generous. A little older than that. But yeah, when I got to Peace Corps, when I got to Lesotho, they, they. Everyone always introduced me, the younger volunteers introduced me, "And this is the oldest volunteer in our country." I thought of myself, especially at that time as very young, and I thought of the 20 somethings as my peers so.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But then, you know, in that country, to be that old, to be, you know, more than 45 years old for a woman was significant. So I did accept the label nkhono, or grandmother, with more grace.

[Assistant] Very good. Let's go way back. Let's talk about your childhood. You, you were in Texas. You were in Oklahoma. Where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to a high school that was the only high school in our town. The town was Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and it was divided up between people who worked for Phillips Petroleum Company, Phillips 66, because it had its world headquarters there, and people whose dads didn't work for Phillips 66. So it was kind of a company town. And, um. And yeah, the one high school. It had a small number of students who were African Americans and none of whom were my friends. It was a very racist time that I look back on it. It was Bible Belt and virulently anti- Kennedy. Kennedy was president for some of those years and, um, and the high school didn't lower the flag on the day he was assassinated. So that kind of that kind of feeling.

[Assistant] Oh, oh. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then, you know, in that country, to be that old, to be, you know, more than 45 years old for a woman was significant. So I did accept the label nkhono, or grandmother, with more grace.

[Assistant] Very good. Let's go way back. Let's talk about your childhood. You, you were in Texas. You were in Oklahoma. Where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to a high school that was the only high school in our town. The town was Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and it was divided up between people who worked for Phillips Petroleum Company, Phillips 66, because it had its world headquarters there, and people whose dads didn't work for Phillips 66. So it was kind of a company town. And, um. And yeah, the one high school. It had a small number of students who were African Americans and none of whom were my friends. It was a very racist time that I look back on it. It was Bible Belt and virulently anti- Kennedy. Kennedy was president for some of those years and, um, and the high school didn't lower the flag on the day he was assassinated. So that kind of that kind of feeling.

[Assistant] Oh, oh. Yeah.

[User] You can, you can pick up the same the same feeling in the same town about Obama now. It's just one of those conservative pockets. So my father was adamant that all of his kids go out of state to, uh, to college.

[Assistant] Well, let's hear about your father. Did he work for, was he one of the Phillips 66 employees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to a high school that was the only high school in our town. The town was Bartlesville, Oklahoma, and it was divided up between people who worked for Phillips Petroleum Company, Phillips 66, because it had its world headquarters there, and people whose dads didn't work for Phillips 66. So it was kind of a company town. And, um. And yeah, the one high school. It had a small number of students who were African Americans and none of whom were my friends. It was a very racist time that I look back on it. It was Bible Belt and virulently anti- Kennedy. Kennedy was president for some of those years and, um, and the high school didn't lower the flag on the day he was assassinated. So that kind of that kind of feeling.

[Assistant] Oh, oh. Yeah.

[User] You can, you can pick up the same the same feeling in the same town about Obama now. It's just one of those conservative pockets. So my father was adamant that all of his kids go out of state to, uh, to college.

[Assistant] Well, let's hear about your father. Did he work for, was he one of the Phillips 66 employees?

[User] He was a chemist.

[Assistant] He was a chemist for the oil company.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can, you can pick up the same the same feeling in the same town about Obama now. It's just one of those conservative pockets. So my father was adamant that all of his kids go out of state to, uh, to college.

[Assistant] Well, let's hear about your father. Did he work for, was he one of the Phillips 66 employees?

[User] He was a chemist.

[Assistant] He was a chemist for the oil company.

[User] And my mother was a stay at home mom most of the time. But she'd been college educated as a occupational therapist and she did like go back to school and get her LPN certification and would work part time in nursing, or she would bake lemon meringue pies for the local restaurant. She found ways, I don't think it was so much for income because we were middle, middle class, but I think it was, you know, just to keep herself intellectually stimulated.

[Assistant] Sure, to contribute in some way, even if it's making lemon meringue pie.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a chemist.

[Assistant] He was a chemist for the oil company.

[User] And my mother was a stay at home mom most of the time. But she'd been college educated as a occupational therapist and she did like go back to school and get her LPN certification and would work part time in nursing, or she would bake lemon meringue pies for the local restaurant. She found ways, I don't think it was so much for income because we were middle, middle class, but I think it was, you know, just to keep herself intellectually stimulated.

[Assistant] Sure, to contribute in some way, even if it's making lemon meringue pie.

[User] Get out of the house.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you referred to siblings you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my mother was a stay at home mom most of the time. But she'd been college educated as a occupational therapist and she did like go back to school and get her LPN certification and would work part time in nursing, or she would bake lemon meringue pies for the local restaurant. She found ways, I don't think it was so much for income because we were middle, middle class, but I think it was, you know, just to keep herself intellectually stimulated.

[Assistant] Sure, to contribute in some way, even if it's making lemon meringue pie.

[User] Get out of the house.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you referred to siblings you had?

[User] I was the oldest of five and three were from my first mother. She died when I was four. And then my father remarried a year and a half later and had the two youngest kids. And we were all brought up, as you know, five siblings of equal, equal standing. Although I think the younger two were raised a little bit differently than the, than the older three of us, because they saw how we had become sort of war protesters and marching to the different drummers and didn't seem too concerned about, you know, going into a straight and narrow path. So my younger sister and brother did become respectively a dentist and a doctor. And, you know, I think were more pressured to conform. That might be it, yeah.

[Assistant] So there were five kids and so that's a family of seven people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Get out of the house.

[Assistant] Yes. And so you referred to siblings you had?

[User] I was the oldest of five and three were from my first mother. She died when I was four. And then my father remarried a year and a half later and had the two youngest kids. And we were all brought up, as you know, five siblings of equal, equal standing. Although I think the younger two were raised a little bit differently than the, than the older three of us, because they saw how we had become sort of war protesters and marching to the different drummers and didn't seem too concerned about, you know, going into a straight and narrow path. So my younger sister and brother did become respectively a dentist and a doctor. And, you know, I think were more pressured to conform. That might be it, yeah.

[Assistant] So there were five kids and so that's a family of seven people.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you all fit into one car? Did you go places, did you take trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the oldest of five and three were from my first mother. She died when I was four. And then my father remarried a year and a half later and had the two youngest kids. And we were all brought up, as you know, five siblings of equal, equal standing. Although I think the younger two were raised a little bit differently than the, than the older three of us, because they saw how we had become sort of war protesters and marching to the different drummers and didn't seem too concerned about, you know, going into a straight and narrow path. So my younger sister and brother did become respectively a dentist and a doctor. And, you know, I think were more pressured to conform. That might be it, yeah.

[Assistant] So there were five kids and so that's a family of seven people.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you all fit into one car? Did you go places, did you take trips?

[User] Yes, we did. And we took family vacations. We'd all fit into one car, but we didn't start camping until I was 14 years old. And then we did a couple of camping vacations. I remember really, really loving that. Before that, it was like some families travel to see some relatives and you stayed in a motel and it was just, you know, you couldn't afford it. So, you know, you would drive as far as you could to get to Nevada, you know, in one day and do one motel and everyone's sleeping in the same room and things like that. I don't really remember enjoying those so much, although we saw the Grand Canyon. And Mesa Verde. Yeah. A few, a few things in the West.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. But not, you wouldn't have traveled internationally as a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you all fit into one car? Did you go places, did you take trips?

[User] Yes, we did. And we took family vacations. We'd all fit into one car, but we didn't start camping until I was 14 years old. And then we did a couple of camping vacations. I remember really, really loving that. Before that, it was like some families travel to see some relatives and you stayed in a motel and it was just, you know, you couldn't afford it. So, you know, you would drive as far as you could to get to Nevada, you know, in one day and do one motel and everyone's sleeping in the same room and things like that. I don't really remember enjoying those so much, although we saw the Grand Canyon. And Mesa Verde. Yeah. A few, a few things in the West.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. But not, you wouldn't have traveled internationally as a family?

[User] No. Yeah, I did my first international trip to Mexico when I was 21 to go down and see Ivan Illich was the.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, in Cuernavaca.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did. And we took family vacations. We'd all fit into one car, but we didn't start camping until I was 14 years old. And then we did a couple of camping vacations. I remember really, really loving that. Before that, it was like some families travel to see some relatives and you stayed in a motel and it was just, you know, you couldn't afford it. So, you know, you would drive as far as you could to get to Nevada, you know, in one day and do one motel and everyone's sleeping in the same room and things like that. I don't really remember enjoying those so much, although we saw the Grand Canyon. And Mesa Verde. Yeah. A few, a few things in the West.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. But not, you wouldn't have traveled internationally as a family?

[User] No. Yeah, I did my first international trip to Mexico when I was 21 to go down and see Ivan Illich was the.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, in Cuernavaca.

[User] Yeah, I did that for three months.

[Assistant] Wonderful. But that was up the road a piece.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Yeah, I did my first international trip to Mexico when I was 21 to go down and see Ivan Illich was the.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, in Cuernavaca.

[User] Yeah, I did that for three months.

[Assistant] Wonderful. But that was up the road a piece.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In, in high school, did you study languages? Did you study Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I did that for three months.

[Assistant] Wonderful. But that was up the road a piece.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In, in high school, did you study languages? Did you study Spanish?

[User]
I studied French for two years and I studied Latin for two years later, when I worked for the Department of Public Instruction. Every single person in our division of curriculum had studied Latin, and I realized we were kind of a, that put us in. Maybe the word wasn't invented yet, but kind of made us nerds. But the Latin teacher was an excellent teacher, and I've always been thankful I've had Latin. French. I was very creative in French in the conversations like, how much can you talk without learning any new words, which I used all the way through Peace Corps, too. You know, how far can you travel on your limited vocabulary? And I pursued French a couple of years in college, but I didn't enjoy it. It was always a focus on the literary. Reading Camu and, you know, living out of your dictionary.

And yeah, I thought that language would be completely irrelevant to my life. As an undergraduate, I took a year of advanced calculus, which was the only way I could get out of one credit of French that I needed. So instead of one credit of French, I took ten credits of calculus, and I don't like math. It was just, I was adamant that I didn't want to take more French. And then, of course, in my later life, having seen what a ridiculous decision that was, I've gone back twice to study French. You know, at the same university, at much greater cost. And effort.

[Assistant] We are not the beings that we were when we were 21 or 19.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In, in high school, did you study languages? Did you study Spanish?

[User]
I studied French for two years and I studied Latin for two years later, when I worked for the Department of Public Instruction. Every single person in our division of curriculum had studied Latin, and I realized we were kind of a, that put us in. Maybe the word wasn't invented yet, but kind of made us nerds. But the Latin teacher was an excellent teacher, and I've always been thankful I've had Latin. French. I was very creative in French in the conversations like, how much can you talk without learning any new words, which I used all the way through Peace Corps, too. You know, how far can you travel on your limited vocabulary? And I pursued French a couple of years in college, but I didn't enjoy it. It was always a focus on the literary. Reading Camu and, you know, living out of your dictionary.

And yeah, I thought that language would be completely irrelevant to my life. As an undergraduate, I took a year of advanced calculus, which was the only way I could get out of one credit of French that I needed. So instead of one credit of French, I took ten credits of calculus, and I don't like math. It was just, I was adamant that I didn't want to take more French. And then, of course, in my later life, having seen what a ridiculous decision that was, I've gone back twice to study French. You know, at the same university, at much greater cost. And effort.

[Assistant] We are not the beings that we were when we were 21 or 19.

[User] And we don't have the wisdom. You know, I made so many foolish decisions like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] So when you, when you went to college, where, where did you go did you say? You went to Grinnell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we don't have the wisdom. You know, I made so many foolish decisions like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] So when you, when you went to college, where, where did you go did you say? You went to Grinnell?

[User] Grinnell is in Grinnell, Iowa.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's a little one of those little ivy covered, cornfields. Yeah, but I didn't thrive. It was a small, was a small school, and just things didn't connect. Now I see they even have a program where they send students to Lesotho. I don't think they did then but. And I didn't want to do a year abroad. I went, when I transferred to the university then, I thrived somehow.

[Assistant] And you transferred to the University of Wisconsin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a little one of those little ivy covered, cornfields. Yeah, but I didn't thrive. It was a small, was a small school, and just things didn't connect. Now I see they even have a program where they send students to Lesotho. I don't think they did then but. And I didn't want to do a year abroad. I went, when I transferred to the university then, I thrived somehow.

[Assistant] And you transferred to the University of Wisconsin.

[User] Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Madison, here?

[User] Yes. Yeah. And I was in my, ready for my junior year. And I think my experience at Grinnell taught me that professors are people and they enjoy interacting with students. So when I had these lecture classes of 300, I would pay attention to when the professor had office hours and I would actually go to them. And the professor was always surprised to see an undergraduate and I would invite them home to dinner and they would always come. And yeah, I kind of knew how to use the system and I knew how to talk my way out of prerequisites, prerequisites. And, you know, I made a beeline for all the interesting courses. And by the time I was a senior, my second year, I was already a teaching assistant because I'd really impressed a couple of professors so much.

[Assistant] So your major was education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. And I was in my, ready for my junior year. And I think my experience at Grinnell taught me that professors are people and they enjoy interacting with students. So when I had these lecture classes of 300, I would pay attention to when the professor had office hours and I would actually go to them. And the professor was always surprised to see an undergraduate and I would invite them home to dinner and they would always come. And yeah, I kind of knew how to use the system and I knew how to talk my way out of prerequisites, prerequisites. And, you know, I made a beeline for all the interesting courses. And by the time I was a senior, my second year, I was already a teaching assistant because I'd really impressed a couple of professors so much.

[Assistant] So your major was education?

[User] It was psychology.

[Assistant] Psychology.

[User] And I had done.

[Assistant] Oh, so you were a teaching assistant in the psychology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was psychology.

[Assistant] Psychology.

[User] And I had done.

[Assistant] Oh, so you were a teaching assistant in the psychology?

[User] I was a teaching assistant.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay, I was thinking practice teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had done.

[Assistant] Oh, so you were a teaching assistant in the psychology?

[User] I was a teaching assistant.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay, I was thinking practice teaching.

[User]
Yeah. No, I was a teaching assistant in a course for, an introductory course for behavioral disabilities because I spent two summers in college working for an NSF National Science Foundation summer program for high school students. I was a counselor there, and one of my Grinnell contacts had gotten me the job. And so I learned a lot about behavioral psychology. And when I, and I worked with some, um. It was called the Custer Center for the Retarded. Since then, it's changed its name for Custer Center for People with Behavioral Disabilities or something like that, in western Michigan, associated with Western Michigan University.

So anyway, I had those two summers, so I knew something and I talked to professors and they needed a TA and so there I was. I was a senior, but I was already a TA with a, a class of 300 undergraduates. And, you know, we followed a text. It wasn't, it wasn't anything too creative, but it was a good, it was a good experience.

[Assistant] No kidding. So you get a bachelor's degree in psychology in UW Madison.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a teaching assistant.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay, I was thinking practice teaching.

[User]
Yeah. No, I was a teaching assistant in a course for, an introductory course for behavioral disabilities because I spent two summers in college working for an NSF National Science Foundation summer program for high school students. I was a counselor there, and one of my Grinnell contacts had gotten me the job. And so I learned a lot about behavioral psychology. And when I, and I worked with some, um. It was called the Custer Center for the Retarded. Since then, it's changed its name for Custer Center for People with Behavioral Disabilities or something like that, in western Michigan, associated with Western Michigan University.

So anyway, I had those two summers, so I knew something and I talked to professors and they needed a TA and so there I was. I was a senior, but I was already a TA with a, a class of 300 undergraduates. And, you know, we followed a text. It wasn't, it wasn't anything too creative, but it was a good, it was a good experience.

[Assistant] No kidding. So you get a bachelor's degree in psychology in UW Madison.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go on to graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. No, I was a teaching assistant in a course for, an introductory course for behavioral disabilities because I spent two summers in college working for an NSF National Science Foundation summer program for high school students. I was a counselor there, and one of my Grinnell contacts had gotten me the job. And so I learned a lot about behavioral psychology. And when I, and I worked with some, um. It was called the Custer Center for the Retarded. Since then, it's changed its name for Custer Center for People with Behavioral Disabilities or something like that, in western Michigan, associated with Western Michigan University.

So anyway, I had those two summers, so I knew something and I talked to professors and they needed a TA and so there I was. I was a senior, but I was already a TA with a, a class of 300 undergraduates. And, you know, we followed a text. It wasn't, it wasn't anything too creative, but it was a good, it was a good experience.

[Assistant] No kidding. So you get a bachelor's degree in psychology in UW Madison.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go on to graduate school?

[User] I did. I went right on to graduate school in educational policy studies. But then that trip to Mexico, I dropped out of graduate student school because somehow. You know, when you really read and believe Paulo Freire and Ivan Illich and at that time there were free schools. And, you know, you're questioning all the philosophy and.

[Assistant] This is 1970, early seventies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go on to graduate school?

[User] I did. I went right on to graduate school in educational policy studies. But then that trip to Mexico, I dropped out of graduate student school because somehow. You know, when you really read and believe Paulo Freire and Ivan Illich and at that time there were free schools. And, you know, you're questioning all the philosophy and.

[Assistant] This is 1970, early seventies?

[User] No, it was 19, probably from '68 through '70. My graduate program started, it was a Ford Foundation funded program for urban education to give people, especially half of our graduate students were African American, and to give people from urban backgrounds, which I wasn't, an early PhD. So it was kind of rush you through your, through your PhD program and get these people with innovative approaches to education out into the schools, especially the urban schools. And, um, so anyway, following that, but then I kind of tracked off to, um, to Mexico. And then to, there was kind of a back to the land movement after the bombing of the Sterling, uh, Sterling Hall and where a lot of activists and people who had been pro.

[Assistant] Maybe you could explain to whoever's listening to this that Sterling Hall was a building here on campus at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. This was during, during the Vietnam War. It was a protest action gone wrong.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was 19, probably from '68 through '70. My graduate program started, it was a Ford Foundation funded program for urban education to give people, especially half of our graduate students were African American, and to give people from urban backgrounds, which I wasn't, an early PhD. So it was kind of rush you through your, through your PhD program and get these people with innovative approaches to education out into the schools, especially the urban schools. And, um, so anyway, following that, but then I kind of tracked off to, um, to Mexico. And then to, there was kind of a back to the land movement after the bombing of the Sterling, uh, Sterling Hall and where a lot of activists and people who had been pro.

[Assistant] Maybe you could explain to whoever's listening to this that Sterling Hall was a building here on campus at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. This was during, during the Vietnam War. It was a protest action gone wrong.

[User] Right, yeah. Yeah, it was. And it was a very important event for affecting people like me who had been protesting and calling the police pigs and throwing things and, you know, really angry about the Vietnam War and all of the boys and all of our boyfriends were considering whether they should go to jail or go to Canada. They were, it was, the war was very present in our lives.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But then when this building on my university campus was bombed by some activists.

[Assistant] And someone died.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then when this building on my university campus was bombed by some activists.

[Assistant] And someone died.

[User] Yes. And someone died. Then suddenly everyone, me and my friends thought, you know, we're against the war, but we don't want to become killers ourselves.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it made us look, look at the whole protest movement. There were a lot of articles written and self analysis, and that's where the back to the land movement was born. You know, we should really get ourselves together before we go around, uh, you know, espousing to the rest of the world how they should live. And that was, you know, out of that, the Vietnam movement, the red power, Black power, women's power. There was a lot of impetus for another things where, you know, you're calling into question the hypocrisy of American domestic and foreign policy. And as, as part of that, I moved out to, uh, out to Ridgeway, Wisconsin, and lived with my boyfriend Eddie at the time, who became and still is a wonderful furniture maker. And, um, yeah. I went back to graduate school several times at kind of ten year intervals, but I never finished my degree. Yeah. So.

[Assistant] And then that was followed by a period of a couple of decades when you were very busy in your adult life way before you decided to join the Peace Corps. And this interview focuses on Peace Corps. But tell us just very briefly, what are some of the things that you did between that time when you were doing back to the land living and joining the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I wrote the essay in '63. I think I was in ninth grade.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So, yeah. And I liked the idea of international travel and I did have a little mimeographed sheet that would come to me. It was very hard to get jobs in, uh. I had an education, I had an education degree as part of my undergraduate, and I remember there were 600 applicants for every teacher. There was a big glut of teachers and engineers. But I did get this little mimeographed thing that did have an opening. It was interesting, and I've always wondered if I could find the person who got this. It said Peace Corps Iran. Become a videographer of folk dances and folk traditions.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] And so the year would have been like '71 or '72. And I think someone got that. And I think I did at least.

[Assistant] You had applied for that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so the year would have been like '71 or '72. And I think someone got that. And I think I did at least.

[Assistant] You had applied for that?

[User] I think I at least applied or submitted an inquiry, but I think I was either turned down for that, turned down for two other volunteer jobs that year. And I was thinking like, I can't even get a volunteer job. Of course, I didn't know what I know now about how hard you have to work and how persistent you have to be to get a job. But someone dropped me off at Folklore Village in Dodgeville, just up the road from me, and I worked there off and on for ten years for almost nothing. And I learned everything. I became kind of the assistant director or the assistant to my mentor, Jane Farwell, who I learned how to teach dancing and I learned how to work with live music and I learned how to instantly make a group of people feel comfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I learned how to work with people, give them projects where they could be creative. And I cleaned the bunkhouses and the outhouses and swept floors and did dishes and gardened. And, you know, it was one of those very holistic experiences that is really kind of made me, even in Lesotho, when I was in the Peace Corps, everywhere I am, it makes me look for either the Folklore Village like community. Or else that makes me think that what this place really needs is a place where people can come of all ages, do something recreational on a Saturday night, be inexpensive, be a potluck, um, and do projects that use the foods and the flowers of the seasons. And, um, yeah, all of the things that Folklore Village was.

[Assistant] Yeah. And is, isn't it still?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I at least applied or submitted an inquiry, but I think I was either turned down for that, turned down for two other volunteer jobs that year. And I was thinking like, I can't even get a volunteer job. Of course, I didn't know what I know now about how hard you have to work and how persistent you have to be to get a job. But someone dropped me off at Folklore Village in Dodgeville, just up the road from me, and I worked there off and on for ten years for almost nothing. And I learned everything. I became kind of the assistant director or the assistant to my mentor, Jane Farwell, who I learned how to teach dancing and I learned how to work with live music and I learned how to instantly make a group of people feel comfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I learned how to work with people, give them projects where they could be creative. And I cleaned the bunkhouses and the outhouses and swept floors and did dishes and gardened. And, you know, it was one of those very holistic experiences that is really kind of made me, even in Lesotho, when I was in the Peace Corps, everywhere I am, it makes me look for either the Folklore Village like community. Or else that makes me think that what this place really needs is a place where people can come of all ages, do something recreational on a Saturday night, be inexpensive, be a potluck, um, and do projects that use the foods and the flowers of the seasons. And, um, yeah, all of the things that Folklore Village was.

[Assistant] Yeah. And is, isn't it still?

[User] And is, yeah. And today, this many years later, even though I hadn't been there for about 20 years at all, I volunteered to be the, to head up their fundraising committee so they've got me by the toe and, yeah.

[Assistant] And, and you did other things too, before you went into Lesotho?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I learned how to work with people, give them projects where they could be creative. And I cleaned the bunkhouses and the outhouses and swept floors and did dishes and gardened. And, you know, it was one of those very holistic experiences that is really kind of made me, even in Lesotho, when I was in the Peace Corps, everywhere I am, it makes me look for either the Folklore Village like community. Or else that makes me think that what this place really needs is a place where people can come of all ages, do something recreational on a Saturday night, be inexpensive, be a potluck, um, and do projects that use the foods and the flowers of the seasons. And, um, yeah, all of the things that Folklore Village was.

[Assistant] Yeah. And is, isn't it still?

[User] And is, yeah. And today, this many years later, even though I hadn't been there for about 20 years at all, I volunteered to be the, to head up their fundraising committee so they've got me by the toe and, yeah.

[Assistant] And, and you did other things too, before you went into Lesotho?

[User] Yes, I did. I, uh, I, I was a weaver when I was, weaver and crocheted hats when I was out in the country with my furniture, uh, furniture man. And then I, uh. Let's see. Crafts. Then as as a weaver I listened to Wisconsin Public Radio, uh, hours a day. And so one day I just marched in there and told the station manager that I wanted to work there. And he actually found a job for me in fundraising. And because I had fundraising experience at Folklore Village. And so I loved that. I transitioned and did some radio production. I still listen to Wisconsin Public Radio hours and hours every day. And what else did I do? Um.

[Assistant] You went to Japan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And is, yeah. And today, this many years later, even though I hadn't been there for about 20 years at all, I volunteered to be the, to head up their fundraising committee so they've got me by the toe and, yeah.

[Assistant] And, and you did other things too, before you went into Lesotho?

[User] Yes, I did. I, uh, I, I was a weaver when I was, weaver and crocheted hats when I was out in the country with my furniture, uh, furniture man. And then I, uh. Let's see. Crafts. Then as as a weaver I listened to Wisconsin Public Radio, uh, hours a day. And so one day I just marched in there and told the station manager that I wanted to work there. And he actually found a job for me in fundraising. And because I had fundraising experience at Folklore Village. And so I loved that. I transitioned and did some radio production. I still listen to Wisconsin Public Radio hours and hours every day. And what else did I do? Um.

[Assistant] You went to Japan?

[User] I taught English in Japan for three years. I studied Japanese at the university, it was the second language I. I had studied French, then Japanese.

[Assistant] And when you say you studied Japanese at the university, you mean here in Madison, Wisconsin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught English in Japan for three years. I studied Japanese at the university, it was the second language I. I had studied French, then Japanese.

[Assistant] And when you say you studied Japanese at the university, you mean here in Madison, Wisconsin?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] For a year.

[Assistant] Before you went to Japan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a year.

[Assistant] Before you went to Japan.

[User] For a year. And then I applied for a Fulbright to finish my PhD. But it's hilarious to think now, you know, the quality of people who are Fulbrighters. Anyway, it wasn't, one year wasn't enough for them to give them confidence that I'd be able to finish my PhD in, uh, in Japanese. I had already been to Sweden. I had a fellowship in 1977-'78 for the American Scandinavian Foundation and spent a year in Sweden studying music and dance with my then, uh, then husband. Not the furniture maker, the book writer. The author. Yeah, that was another wonderful year. But it gave me the idea that you could pick up a language very quickly, because Swedish, Swedish is so similar to English.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So I thought I could, you know, spend a year in Japan and learn to speak Japanese as well as I'd learned to speak Swedish in Sweden.

[Assistant] And did that happen? Did you, were you able to converse in Japanese?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I thought I could, you know, spend a year in Japan and learn to speak Japanese as well as I'd learned to speak Swedish in Sweden.

[Assistant] And did that happen? Did you, were you able to converse in Japanese?

[User] I got to kind of an intermediate level of more an informal street Japanese. Like later in my job when I worked at the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction for 16 years, I would meet many high- ranking superintendents and governors from Japan. And there's a kind of keigo, which is formal Japanese that you speak with people who are, who are your, you speak in the honorific form.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so even though I was quite conversational in the casual, you know, to talk with a housewife. And even though I'd been in Japan three years, I never dared use my Japanese in these formal situations because I knew enough to know that, you knew enough to know how little I knew, you know, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And you don't insult somebody by, um, demoting them in your way of speaking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so even though I was quite conversational in the casual, you know, to talk with a housewife. And even though I'd been in Japan three years, I never dared use my Japanese in these formal situations because I knew enough to know that, you knew enough to know how little I knew, you know, that kind of thing.

[Assistant] And you don't insult somebody by, um, demoting them in your way of speaking.

[User] Not just them, but, you know, to insult the entire, um, entire event, you know, like, like just the wrong person as emcee, that sometimes you go to those kind of events. Yeah. But one time I did have an event and I had, I had, I think I had four translators and someone came up to me and I think it was a Japanese person who was on staff at the university and said, I've never been to a university event or I've never been to an event where the translator, the need for translation was adequately addressed. You know, like usually you have one overworked translator, but I had, you know, this person is important, they will have a translator. This person is important and they will have a translator. And when we switch languages, then those people will have, you know, English to Japanese versus Japanese to English.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And yeah, so that kind of thing you learn when you, when you get into a society with language demands like Japanese.

[Assistant] You learned so much in your life before you went to Peace Corps. And there's more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not just them, but, you know, to insult the entire, um, entire event, you know, like, like just the wrong person as emcee, that sometimes you go to those kind of events. Yeah. But one time I did have an event and I had, I had, I think I had four translators and someone came up to me and I think it was a Japanese person who was on staff at the university and said, I've never been to a university event or I've never been to an event where the translator, the need for translation was adequately addressed. You know, like usually you have one overworked translator, but I had, you know, this person is important, they will have a translator. This person is important and they will have a translator. And when we switch languages, then those people will have, you know, English to Japanese versus Japanese to English.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And yeah, so that kind of thing you learn when you, when you get into a society with language demands like Japanese.

[Assistant] You learned so much in your life before you went to Peace Corps. And there's more.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] You talk about having worked for the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction for 16 years, and that's when I first met you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yeah, so that kind of thing you learn when you, when you get into a society with language demands like Japanese.

[Assistant] You learned so much in your life before you went to Peace Corps. And there's more.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] You talk about having worked for the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction for 16 years, and that's when I first met you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] International education consultant. Was that what it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We just had nonstop, nonstop delegations coming and the path was totally clear for me to create things. So I saw all kinds of things I could create. I could create an association of educators. I could create an association of Japanese teachers. I could present all around. You know, I could collaborate with these teachers who, who were coming. I could study education systems from different countries. And sometimes during those 16 years, I would just take off on my own. I went to West Africa because I was aware that I was the international education consultant, but I'd never been to a single African country.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] You know, I heard that schools in Finland were really good. So I went to Finland to look at schools. Some of those things I just did, did on my own. Yeah, I did, did a lot of things. And we put out a teacher's guide to international curriculum, which now there are many, but at that time it was the first.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And now several states, not many states, have a person in that position. But I was the first. And so I got some national attention because a lot of people thought that, oh, look what Wisconsin is doing. We should be doing that. So got invited here and there.

[Assistant] And you were the perfect person to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I heard that schools in Finland were really good. So I went to Finland to look at schools. Some of those things I just did, did on my own. Yeah, I did, did a lot of things. And we put out a teacher's guide to international curriculum, which now there are many, but at that time it was the first.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And now several states, not many states, have a person in that position. But I was the first. And so I got some national attention because a lot of people thought that, oh, look what Wisconsin is doing. We should be doing that. So got invited here and there.

[Assistant] And you were the perfect person to do that.

[User] I was outgoing. And I was interested in every country and all of the, all of the things. So, yeah, I did, I did enjoy that job.

[Assistant] So it was the dream. It was the job from heaven. It was the perfect job. And yet you left it to apply to the Peace Corps. How, what. What was going on there? How did you decide to, um, leave this very interesting job in Madison, Wisconsin, and throw your hat in the ring for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Japan and in Sweden and in Germany and in France, you know, even China. He said, what's not here is any kind of experience in a more third world country that shows that you can tough it out.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And I said, well, how do I get that? And he said, well, you know, there's a number of volunteer projects, or you could do something like the Peace Corps, and you know, he might have said other things but I stopped listening. I went back, I applied for the Peace Corps. I didn't tell anyone at work. And it was the typical experience of the older volunteer having to go through all these, jump through all of these medical hoops, even though I was perfectly healthy. But it took a whole year, the application.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then it came through, I think in, uh, September. And I sent out an email to my colleagues in the Department of Public Instruction, and there was just a collective gasp. Because I was young for retirement, 59. In fact, I had no intentions of retiring. I thought it was 45 or 26 or something. In fact, when I went to check out with Human Resources, they handed me all these things and they said, you know, your pension will start coming now. And I went, what pension? And I, I thought, I'm so grateful for those people because I would have left that place without anything. I just sort of thought, well, this was the end of this job and now I'm going to go get this other job. So, yeah.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, was there a question on the application about what part of the world you would most like to serve in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said, well, how do I get that? And he said, well, you know, there's a number of volunteer projects, or you could do something like the Peace Corps, and you know, he might have said other things but I stopped listening. I went back, I applied for the Peace Corps. I didn't tell anyone at work. And it was the typical experience of the older volunteer having to go through all these, jump through all of these medical hoops, even though I was perfectly healthy. But it took a whole year, the application.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then it came through, I think in, uh, September. And I sent out an email to my colleagues in the Department of Public Instruction, and there was just a collective gasp. Because I was young for retirement, 59. In fact, I had no intentions of retiring. I thought it was 45 or 26 or something. In fact, when I went to check out with Human Resources, they handed me all these things and they said, you know, your pension will start coming now. And I went, what pension? And I, I thought, I'm so grateful for those people because I would have left that place without anything. I just sort of thought, well, this was the end of this job and now I'm going to go get this other job. So, yeah.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, was there a question on the application about what part of the world you would most like to serve in?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or was there another question saying, is there a part of the world that you would not want to go to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then it came through, I think in, uh, September. And I sent out an email to my colleagues in the Department of Public Instruction, and there was just a collective gasp. Because I was young for retirement, 59. In fact, I had no intentions of retiring. I thought it was 45 or 26 or something. In fact, when I went to check out with Human Resources, they handed me all these things and they said, you know, your pension will start coming now. And I went, what pension? And I, I thought, I'm so grateful for those people because I would have left that place without anything. I just sort of thought, well, this was the end of this job and now I'm going to go get this other job. So, yeah.

[Assistant] When you applied to the Peace Corps, was there a question on the application about what part of the world you would most like to serve in?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or was there another question saying, is there a part of the world that you would not want to go to?

[User] There was the one about where did I want to go.

[Assistant] And what did you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or was there another question saying, is there a part of the world that you would not want to go to?

[User] There was the one about where did I want to go.

[Assistant] And what did you say?

[User] And I said, actually there were three choices. And I said West Africa, because in that year that I hadn't told anyone that I had applied, I took French the third time, you know, kind of like I left work every day or I came in late every day at 10:00. I'd already had my French class and then I would work until 6:00 or 7:00.

[Assistant] Of course, there are many West African countries in which French is the lingua franca.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said, actually there were three choices. And I said West Africa, because in that year that I hadn't told anyone that I had applied, I took French the third time, you know, kind of like I left work every day or I came in late every day at 10:00. I'd already had my French class and then I would work until 6:00 or 7:00.

[Assistant] Of course, there are many West African countries in which French is the lingua franca.

[User] Right, right. So I said, I said, uh, West Africa, Central Africa, or anywhere Africa.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And somewhere in that year I got a call from them and they said, you know, with all of your education experience, we have the perfect job for you. We're going to put you in a teaching situation and you're going to train teachers to teach English as a big country and a lot of, a lot of teachers. And I said, will I be speaking French? And they laughed and said, no, you won't be speaking French. And I said, well, what language will I be speaking? And they said, well, there's two languages in this country. And to tell you one would give away the country, but the other one would be Russian. And I just kind of snapped. You know, I mean, I was just kind of like.

[Assistant] That doesn't sound like Africa.