[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so, really. Well, maybe it had some role, but I don’t know. I really don’t know. I never had that feeling that it was that that stimulated stuff.

[Assistant] You ended up staying in this position as AA for a couple of years.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to leave that post?

[User] Well, because I had a call about five o’clock one afternoon from the new undersecretary of HUD, asking me to come over and talk to the Secretary about joining them. It was the ’67 period, wasn’t it?

[Assistant] 1967 to 1969, I think, is when you were the AA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a big adjustment. Believe me. I was just so young; I was just 21, and he was 30, so he was much more mature and knew what he wanted with his career and everything. So it was lonely at first, but we met some nice people that worked at Langley, NACA, and I had some good friends there, and joined a church there. Herbert wasn't a church-going person because on weekends he'd play golf, he loved to play golf, and he was a good golfer. I'd take the kids to Sunday School. He was an excellent golfer, but I never saw him play, because the kids were little and I'd take them to Sunday School and he'd go out and play golf on Sundays. So I never got to see him play, but he won a lot of tournaments at Langley. He was an excellent player.

[Assistant] How did the area around Langley, Hampton and the community, how did they accept or treat the people that worked for NACA?

[User] I think they accepted them as nice people, friendly part of the community. I don't think they built them up in any special way, I don’t think so.

[Assistant] We've heard people refer to the community thinking of them as the NACA Nuts and that sort of thing.

[User] Yes, they did call them NACA Nuts, I remember that. Yes.

[Assistant] You said you met several people and became good friends. Were there any organized social activities that you took part in as far as the NACA group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they accepted them as nice people, friendly part of the community. I don't think they built them up in any special way, I don’t think so.

[Assistant] We've heard people refer to the community thinking of them as the NACA Nuts and that sort of thing.

[User] Yes, they did call them NACA Nuts, I remember that. Yes.

[Assistant] You said you met several people and became good friends. Were there any organized social activities that you took part in as far as the NACA group?

[User] I don't recall being in an organization. They had NACA parties of course that type of thing. I don't recall their having an organized group to get together. I don't recall that.

[Assistant] What area did you live in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did call them NACA Nuts, I remember that. Yes.

[Assistant] You said you met several people and became good friends. Were there any organized social activities that you took part in as far as the NACA group?

[User] I don't recall being in an organization. They had NACA parties of course that type of thing. I don't recall their having an organized group to get together. I don't recall that.

[Assistant] What area did you live in?

[User] Well, at first we lived in Phoebus [Virginia] when we were first married. Phoebus is the little town right after you cross the bridge, coming over here. In fact, when we lived there, they didn't have a bridge. We had to take a boat to get over to Virginia Beach, they didn't have a bridge then. We lived in Phoebus, and then we moved to Hampton, and after both the children were born, we moved to Newport News [Virginia] on James River Drive, which was a beautiful area where a lot of the NACA people lived. Like [John A.] Harper was the fellow that was with Herbert when he had his accident. Jack [John P.] Reeder was one of the pilots. Don Bales was an engineer. The [Jerome B.] Hammack’s lived next door. So there were a lot of NACA people in that community.

[Assistant] So as you said, you made a lot of good friends. Did you belong to any kind of organizations or did you, were you working at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall being in an organization. They had NACA parties of course that type of thing. I don't recall their having an organized group to get together. I don't recall that.

[Assistant] What area did you live in?

[User] Well, at first we lived in Phoebus [Virginia] when we were first married. Phoebus is the little town right after you cross the bridge, coming over here. In fact, when we lived there, they didn't have a bridge. We had to take a boat to get over to Virginia Beach, they didn't have a bridge then. We lived in Phoebus, and then we moved to Hampton, and after both the children were born, we moved to Newport News [Virginia] on James River Drive, which was a beautiful area where a lot of the NACA people lived. Like [John A.] Harper was the fellow that was with Herbert when he had his accident. Jack [John P.] Reeder was one of the pilots. Don Bales was an engineer. The [Jerome B.] Hammack’s lived next door. So there were a lot of NACA people in that community.

[Assistant] So as you said, you made a lot of good friends. Did you belong to any kind of organizations or did you, were you working at that time?

[User] I didn't go to work until after I lost Herbert. I taught school for a couple years. I didn't have a chance to do anything but just staying at home with the kids. I joined a group called PEO, have you ever heard of it? It's the Philanthropic Educational Organization. It's a wonderful group of women and we support colleges and give money for people that can't afford to go to college. It's a college-oriented thing. Philanthropic. I still belong to it.

[Assistant] You joined it back then, during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at first we lived in Phoebus [Virginia] when we were first married. Phoebus is the little town right after you cross the bridge, coming over here. In fact, when we lived there, they didn't have a bridge. We had to take a boat to get over to Virginia Beach, they didn't have a bridge then. We lived in Phoebus, and then we moved to Hampton, and after both the children were born, we moved to Newport News [Virginia] on James River Drive, which was a beautiful area where a lot of the NACA people lived. Like [John A.] Harper was the fellow that was with Herbert when he had his accident. Jack [John P.] Reeder was one of the pilots. Don Bales was an engineer. The [Jerome B.] Hammack’s lived next door. So there were a lot of NACA people in that community.

[Assistant] So as you said, you made a lot of good friends. Did you belong to any kind of organizations or did you, were you working at that time?

[User] I didn't go to work until after I lost Herbert. I taught school for a couple years. I didn't have a chance to do anything but just staying at home with the kids. I joined a group called PEO, have you ever heard of it? It's the Philanthropic Educational Organization. It's a wonderful group of women and we support colleges and give money for people that can't afford to go to college. It's a college-oriented thing. Philanthropic. I still belong to it.

[Assistant] You joined it back then, during that time period?

[User] Yes. Let me see what else I belonged to. Of course, I was always active in our church there, the Presbyterian Church. I think I joined a Garden Club, Home Demonstration Club. That's about all.

[Assistant] When you married him, you knew that he was a test pilot. How much did he share with you, what he did or the dangers of his job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't go to work until after I lost Herbert. I taught school for a couple years. I didn't have a chance to do anything but just staying at home with the kids. I joined a group called PEO, have you ever heard of it? It's the Philanthropic Educational Organization. It's a wonderful group of women and we support colleges and give money for people that can't afford to go to college. It's a college-oriented thing. Philanthropic. I still belong to it.

[Assistant] You joined it back then, during that time period?

[User] Yes. Let me see what else I belonged to. Of course, I was always active in our church there, the Presbyterian Church. I think I joined a Garden Club, Home Demonstration Club. That's about all.

[Assistant] When you married him, you knew that he was a test pilot. How much did he share with you, what he did or the dangers of his job?

[User] He was so happy in his job and loved his work, and he always said he felt safer in an airplane than he did in an automobile. So we never really considered it too much, it was his livelihood, but he loved it. He just liked his work, and didn’t consider it. We made the mistake of not discussing if something happened to him, what I should do. The only thing he ever said, "If something happens to me, be sure you pay the mortgage on the house." And we didn't discuss anything else, which was a mistake. It definitely was a mistake. We should have discussed more.

[Assistant] Did you ever know about any of the missions that he was flying when he was doing them, if they were going to be especially dangerous?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Let me see what else I belonged to. Of course, I was always active in our church there, the Presbyterian Church. I think I joined a Garden Club, Home Demonstration Club. That's about all.

[Assistant] When you married him, you knew that he was a test pilot. How much did he share with you, what he did or the dangers of his job?

[User] He was so happy in his job and loved his work, and he always said he felt safer in an airplane than he did in an automobile. So we never really considered it too much, it was his livelihood, but he loved it. He just liked his work, and didn’t consider it. We made the mistake of not discussing if something happened to him, what I should do. The only thing he ever said, "If something happens to me, be sure you pay the mortgage on the house." And we didn't discuss anything else, which was a mistake. It definitely was a mistake. We should have discussed more.

[Assistant] Did you ever know about any of the missions that he was flying when he was doing them, if they were going to be especially dangerous?

[User] Of course flying the X-1, he definitely wanted to do that. He said, "We both will benefit from it." I don’t know exactly what he meant by that, but he said, "We both will benefit from it," and of course he got a lot of recognition from that. But he just didn't discuss the danger of it, and I wasn't smart enough to ask him about it.

[Assistant] You were young, too. As you said, you were very young.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was so happy in his job and loved his work, and he always said he felt safer in an airplane than he did in an automobile. So we never really considered it too much, it was his livelihood, but he loved it. He just liked his work, and didn’t consider it. We made the mistake of not discussing if something happened to him, what I should do. The only thing he ever said, "If something happens to me, be sure you pay the mortgage on the house." And we didn't discuss anything else, which was a mistake. It definitely was a mistake. We should have discussed more.

[Assistant] Did you ever know about any of the missions that he was flying when he was doing them, if they were going to be especially dangerous?

[User] Of course flying the X-1, he definitely wanted to do that. He said, "We both will benefit from it." I don’t know exactly what he meant by that, but he said, "We both will benefit from it," and of course he got a lot of recognition from that. But he just didn't discuss the danger of it, and I wasn't smart enough to ask him about it.

[Assistant] You were young, too. As you said, you were very young.

[User] Exactly. Right.

[Assistant] Did he fly back and forth to California to go to [NACA] Muroc [Flight Test Unit, now NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course flying the X-1, he definitely wanted to do that. He said, "We both will benefit from it." I don’t know exactly what he meant by that, but he said, "We both will benefit from it," and of course he got a lot of recognition from that. But he just didn't discuss the danger of it, and I wasn't smart enough to ask him about it.

[Assistant] You were young, too. As you said, you were very young.

[User] Exactly. Right.

[Assistant] Did he fly back and forth to California to go to [NACA] Muroc [Flight Test Unit, now NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California]?

[User] He was in California a lot of times. It was really hard with the kids not having their dad around. But that was his life, that's what he wanted to do. Like my son said, "Mother, he was doing what he wanted to do." So I just have to accept it that way.

[Assistant] What did you do, personally, to handle the stress?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Right.

[Assistant] Did he fly back and forth to California to go to [NACA] Muroc [Flight Test Unit, now NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California]?

[User] He was in California a lot of times. It was really hard with the kids not having their dad around. But that was his life, that's what he wanted to do. Like my son said, "Mother, he was doing what he wanted to do." So I just have to accept it that way.

[Assistant] What did you do, personally, to handle the stress?

[User] I just wasn't aware of it.

[Assistant] So you never felt the stress. Or did you feel like you had to relieve his stress by taking care of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in California a lot of times. It was really hard with the kids not having their dad around. But that was his life, that's what he wanted to do. Like my son said, "Mother, he was doing what he wanted to do." So I just have to accept it that way.

[Assistant] What did you do, personally, to handle the stress?

[User] I just wasn't aware of it.

[Assistant] So you never felt the stress. Or did you feel like you had to relieve his stress by taking care of things?

[User] I was young, I just didn't think a thing about it.

[Assistant] Didn't think about it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just wasn't aware of it.

[Assistant] So you never felt the stress. Or did you feel like you had to relieve his stress by taking care of things?

[User] I was young, I just didn't think a thing about it.

[Assistant] Didn't think about it?

[User] Nowadays, I certainly would, now that I'm an old woman I would certainly do it. Back then, I was just so young and immature.

[Assistant] Did he have any way of, when he came home, any hobbies or anything that you remember that he may have used to cope with some of the stress that he had at work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was young, I just didn't think a thing about it.

[Assistant] Didn't think about it?

[User] Nowadays, I certainly would, now that I'm an old woman I would certainly do it. Back then, I was just so young and immature.

[Assistant] Did he have any way of, when he came home, any hobbies or anything that you remember that he may have used to cope with some of the stress that he had at work?

[User] Well, he was good at making furniture. Hand work. We had, in the garage, all kinds of tools that he would make, he would build tables and chairs, and he was really talented in that way. Of course, he loved his golf; he was really playing a lot of golf.

[Assistant] I've heard some people describe golf as stressful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nowadays, I certainly would, now that I'm an old woman I would certainly do it. Back then, I was just so young and immature.

[Assistant] Did he have any way of, when he came home, any hobbies or anything that you remember that he may have used to cope with some of the stress that he had at work?

[User] Well, he was good at making furniture. Hand work. We had, in the garage, all kinds of tools that he would make, he would build tables and chairs, and he was really talented in that way. Of course, he loved his golf; he was really playing a lot of golf.

[Assistant] I've heard some people describe golf as stressful.

[User] It is, it is. I play golf now, I've been playing for years and I love it, but it is stressful.

[Assistant] I know that test pilots, most of them have a certain type of personality. Very cool, very calm under stress. Was he also that way, and did he handle other situations in his life the same way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was good at making furniture. Hand work. We had, in the garage, all kinds of tools that he would make, he would build tables and chairs, and he was really talented in that way. Of course, he loved his golf; he was really playing a lot of golf.

[Assistant] I've heard some people describe golf as stressful.

[User] It is, it is. I play golf now, I've been playing for years and I love it, but it is stressful.

[Assistant] I know that test pilots, most of them have a certain type of personality. Very cool, very calm under stress. Was he also that way, and did he handle other situations in his life the same way?

[User] Yes. He was just a smart, capable individual. Very calm, and he never seemed to get uptight about much of anything. But, the morning that he had his accident, after breakfast—he had a nice singing voice, and he left singing, "Oh, what a beautiful morning! Everything's going my way." And then about midmorning, a chaplain came to my house. But anyway, he was happy that morning. He was singing, "Everything's going my way."

[Assistant] I'm sure that's a comfort to you, to know that he was happy. As your son said, he was happy doing what he wanted to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was just, I don't know, young and stupid. I didn't know what I was doing. My son said, "Mother, you should write a book. Call it Three Strikes and You're Out." (laughter) So that's what I should do, I've got to do that.

[Assistant] One of these days, huh?

[User] One of these days, write a book, Three Strikes and You're Out. But they all were great guys, they really were. Tom was divorced from his first wife, and he had that one daughter who is the artist. She lives in San Diego [California]. So we're close friends. I got an email from her the other day and she said, "Well, what Herbert and Tom did for NACA is they really contributed, they both did," and she said, "and thank goodness you were part of their lives."

[Assistant] That's so sweet. That's very sweet.

[User] So that's my story.

[Assistant] During that time period, organizations of people that had dangerous jobs and those sort of things, they didn't always know how to handle those situations. I was wondering if, when your first husband died, and since it was doing testing, was there any kind of organized group or any kind of effort to help you get over this or to help you in any way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of these days, write a book, Three Strikes and You're Out. But they all were great guys, they really were. Tom was divorced from his first wife, and he had that one daughter who is the artist. She lives in San Diego [California]. So we're close friends. I got an email from her the other day and she said, "Well, what Herbert and Tom did for NACA is they really contributed, they both did," and she said, "and thank goodness you were part of their lives."

[Assistant] That's so sweet. That's very sweet.

[User] So that's my story.

[Assistant] During that time period, organizations of people that had dangerous jobs and those sort of things, they didn't always know how to handle those situations. I was wondering if, when your first husband died, and since it was doing testing, was there any kind of organized group or any kind of effort to help you get over this or to help you in any way?

[User] No. Did you ever hear the name, Mel [Melvin N.] Gough? He was one of the pilots when the accident happened, and he came out to see me, he said, "We have lost our key man. We've lost our key man." Dr. [Hugh L.] Dryden came to see me too. But no, there was no particular group that the got around to give you comfort. No. I look back on it, and the kids and I, we all should have had some support and help. We should have. We needed help to accept what had happened because it was hard on them, too. It really was.

[Assistant] Yes, I can't imagine being there with those two young children and what you must have been feeling.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's my story.

[Assistant] During that time period, organizations of people that had dangerous jobs and those sort of things, they didn't always know how to handle those situations. I was wondering if, when your first husband died, and since it was doing testing, was there any kind of organized group or any kind of effort to help you get over this or to help you in any way?

[User] No. Did you ever hear the name, Mel [Melvin N.] Gough? He was one of the pilots when the accident happened, and he came out to see me, he said, "We have lost our key man. We've lost our key man." Dr. [Hugh L.] Dryden came to see me too. But no, there was no particular group that the got around to give you comfort. No. I look back on it, and the kids and I, we all should have had some support and help. We should have. We needed help to accept what had happened because it was hard on them, too. It really was.

[Assistant] Yes, I can't imagine being there with those two young children and what you must have been feeling.

[User] Yes, it was tough. And then the minister that performed Herbert's funeral came to see me, the kids and me, one cold winter night. I was busy working supper for us, and I said, "Oh, Mr. Thompson, I miss him so much." He said, "Ruth, there are more things important than the flesh." That was the help I had from the minister. "More important things than the flesh." Than human beings. More spiritual. He didn't give me any help whatsoever.

[Assistant] Because unfortunately, you were still in the flesh, weren't you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Did you ever hear the name, Mel [Melvin N.] Gough? He was one of the pilots when the accident happened, and he came out to see me, he said, "We have lost our key man. We've lost our key man." Dr. [Hugh L.] Dryden came to see me too. But no, there was no particular group that the got around to give you comfort. No. I look back on it, and the kids and I, we all should have had some support and help. We should have. We needed help to accept what had happened because it was hard on them, too. It really was.

[Assistant] Yes, I can't imagine being there with those two young children and what you must have been feeling.

[User] Yes, it was tough. And then the minister that performed Herbert's funeral came to see me, the kids and me, one cold winter night. I was busy working supper for us, and I said, "Oh, Mr. Thompson, I miss him so much." He said, "Ruth, there are more things important than the flesh." That was the help I had from the minister. "More important things than the flesh." Than human beings. More spiritual. He didn't give me any help whatsoever.

[Assistant] Because unfortunately, you were still in the flesh, weren't you?

[User] Yes. He reminded me of [Barack] Obama's minister. (laughter) Oh dear! They aren't always right, either.

[Assistant] No, not always. They're still human no matter what, aren't they? Well, as you mentioned, he was an important pilot, and he was the second person to break the sound barrier, and the first civilian for NACA. I've read some about him, and they said that he would deliberately fly through bad weather to conduct the flying research.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was tough. And then the minister that performed Herbert's funeral came to see me, the kids and me, one cold winter night. I was busy working supper for us, and I said, "Oh, Mr. Thompson, I miss him so much." He said, "Ruth, there are more things important than the flesh." That was the help I had from the minister. "More important things than the flesh." Than human beings. More spiritual. He didn't give me any help whatsoever.

[Assistant] Because unfortunately, you were still in the flesh, weren't you?

[User] Yes. He reminded me of [Barack] Obama's minister. (laughter) Oh dear! They aren't always right, either.

[Assistant] No, not always. They're still human no matter what, aren't they? Well, as you mentioned, he was an important pilot, and he was the second person to break the sound barrier, and the first civilian for NACA. I've read some about him, and they said that he would deliberately fly through bad weather to conduct the flying research.

[User] Oh yes. He chose to drive through thunderstorms.

[Assistant] Quite an amazing pilot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He reminded me of [Barack] Obama's minister. (laughter) Oh dear! They aren't always right, either.

[Assistant] No, not always. They're still human no matter what, aren't they? Well, as you mentioned, he was an important pilot, and he was the second person to break the sound barrier, and the first civilian for NACA. I've read some about him, and they said that he would deliberately fly through bad weather to conduct the flying research.

[User] Oh yes. He chose to drive through thunderstorms.

[Assistant] Quite an amazing pilot.

[User] Yes, he was. I don’t know what he was made of.

[Assistant] Well, having him and then your second husband, he was also a pilot for the Air Force?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. He chose to drive through thunderstorms.

[Assistant] Quite an amazing pilot.

[User] Yes, he was. I don’t know what he was made of.

[Assistant] Well, having him and then your second husband, he was also a pilot for the Air Force?

[User] Yes, but he wasn't a test pilot. He was just Air Force.

[Assistant] Then your third husband, I know he worked for NACA, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was. I don’t know what he was made of.

[Assistant] Well, having him and then your second husband, he was also a pilot for the Air Force?

[User] Yes, but he wasn't a test pilot. He was just Air Force.

[Assistant] Then your third husband, I know he worked for NACA, too.

[User] He was in charge of grants and research.

[Assistant] Was that when he was with NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but he wasn't a test pilot. He was just Air Force.

[Assistant] Then your third husband, I know he worked for NACA, too.

[User] He was in charge of grants and research.

[Assistant] Was that when he was with NACA?

[User] Yes, he worked for NACA at Langley. This just tells you about what Tom did, that's his record [referring to document].

[Assistant] Did you relocate to Washington D.C. area? You said you lived in Alexandria [Virginia] for a while after you married him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in charge of grants and research.

[Assistant] Was that when he was with NACA?

[User] Yes, he worked for NACA at Langley. This just tells you about what Tom did, that's his record [referring to document].

[Assistant] Did you relocate to Washington D.C. area? You said you lived in Alexandria [Virginia] for a while after you married him?

[User] After I married him, I sold my home in Newport News and we moved to Alexandria. So that's where I lived for 35 and a half years when I was with him. Although we moved to Palmdale, California. We lived in Palmdale five and a half years, because Tom had job there at Edwards Air Force Base as some kind of a—I don't know exactly what he was doing there.

[Assistant] What years were those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he worked for NACA at Langley. This just tells you about what Tom did, that's his record [referring to document].

[Assistant] Did you relocate to Washington D.C. area? You said you lived in Alexandria [Virginia] for a while after you married him?

[User] After I married him, I sold my home in Newport News and we moved to Alexandria. So that's where I lived for 35 and a half years when I was with him. Although we moved to Palmdale, California. We lived in Palmdale five and a half years, because Tom had job there at Edwards Air Force Base as some kind of a—I don't know exactly what he was doing there.

[Assistant] What years were those?

[User] Let's see. Early 70s, '72. About ’70. We lived there five years.

[Assistant] How was that, living in California after being out here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After I married him, I sold my home in Newport News and we moved to Alexandria. So that's where I lived for 35 and a half years when I was with him. Although we moved to Palmdale, California. We lived in Palmdale five and a half years, because Tom had job there at Edwards Air Force Base as some kind of a—I don't know exactly what he was doing there.

[Assistant] What years were those?

[User] Let's see. Early 70s, '72. About ’70. We lived there five years.

[Assistant] How was that, living in California after being out here?

[User] Well, it was a big adjustment. It really was. I thought, "I cannot take this desert climate." The wind blew and the sun was just hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Every morning, Tom would get up and pull the drapes and he'd say, "Oh, another beautiful day in Antelope Valley," and I thought, "If I hear that any more, I'm going to croak. I want to see rain." We didn't know what rain was in the desert.\n\n Of course, we played a lot of golf there, we lived right near the golf course. You'd go out there and the wind would just be blowing everywhere and the hot sun. One day—I used to walk and pull my clubs—and when we came in from playing 18 holes, I thought, "Gosh, I don't feel good." It turned out it was 112 [degrees] that day. I played 18 holes of golf in a temperature of 112.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness! I guess you didn't feel very good, did you? You were probably dehydrated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. Early 70s, '72. About ’70. We lived there five years.

[Assistant] How was that, living in California after being out here?

[User] Well, it was a big adjustment. It really was. I thought, "I cannot take this desert climate." The wind blew and the sun was just hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Every morning, Tom would get up and pull the drapes and he'd say, "Oh, another beautiful day in Antelope Valley," and I thought, "If I hear that any more, I'm going to croak. I want to see rain." We didn't know what rain was in the desert.\n\n Of course, we played a lot of golf there, we lived right near the golf course. You'd go out there and the wind would just be blowing everywhere and the hot sun. One day—I used to walk and pull my clubs—and when we came in from playing 18 holes, I thought, "Gosh, I don't feel good." It turned out it was 112 [degrees] that day. I played 18 holes of golf in a temperature of 112.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness! I guess you didn't feel very good, did you? You were probably dehydrated.

[User] I was, that's what I was.

[Assistant] You said you were young and you didn't really have a grasp of what your husband was doing at that time. Did you know the wives of some of the other test pilots? You weren't friends with any of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a big adjustment. It really was. I thought, "I cannot take this desert climate." The wind blew and the sun was just hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Every morning, Tom would get up and pull the drapes and he'd say, "Oh, another beautiful day in Antelope Valley," and I thought, "If I hear that any more, I'm going to croak. I want to see rain." We didn't know what rain was in the desert.\n\n Of course, we played a lot of golf there, we lived right near the golf course. You'd go out there and the wind would just be blowing everywhere and the hot sun. One day—I used to walk and pull my clubs—and when we came in from playing 18 holes, I thought, "Gosh, I don't feel good." It turned out it was 112 [degrees] that day. I played 18 holes of golf in a temperature of 112.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness! I guess you didn't feel very good, did you? You were probably dehydrated.

[User] I was, that's what I was.

[Assistant] You said you were young and you didn't really have a grasp of what your husband was doing at that time. Did you know the wives of some of the other test pilots? You weren't friends with any of them?

[User] No. Later on, I met Bill Gray's wife. And of course Bill Harper and Peggy, I met them. Of course I knew Jack Reeder and Francis. But I didn't know all of them, but I did know the Reeders and the Harpers, and of course Howard Lilly wasn't married. I remember when he was killed.

[Assistant] Did you ever go back to teaching? You said you taught those two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, that's what I was.

[Assistant] You said you were young and you didn't really have a grasp of what your husband was doing at that time. Did you know the wives of some of the other test pilots? You weren't friends with any of them?

[User] No. Later on, I met Bill Gray's wife. And of course Bill Harper and Peggy, I met them. Of course I knew Jack Reeder and Francis. But I didn't know all of them, but I did know the Reeders and the Harpers, and of course Howard Lilly wasn't married. I remember when he was killed.

[Assistant] Did you ever go back to teaching? You said you taught those two years.

[User] I taught two years, and then I married. My career was marriage. Marriage and widowhood.

[Assistant] Well, you've married some high achieving men, so I imagine that's a career in itself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Later on, I met Bill Gray's wife. And of course Bill Harper and Peggy, I met them. Of course I knew Jack Reeder and Francis. But I didn't know all of them, but I did know the Reeders and the Harpers, and of course Howard Lilly wasn't married. I remember when he was killed.

[Assistant] Did you ever go back to teaching? You said you taught those two years.

[User] I taught two years, and then I married. My career was marriage. Marriage and widowhood.

[Assistant] Well, you've married some high achieving men, so I imagine that's a career in itself.

[User] They all were. They all were such nice guys, they really were. I came across a lot of old letters from them. Been lucky in a lot of ways, but none of them hung in there. Someone said, "Ruth, you're hard on them." But Herbert was 40 when he was killed, that's awful young. Then Kurt at 41. That was hard on my kids too, because they were so crazy about Kurt. I have the cutest picture of Kurt and Hank with their arms around each other. That was really hard on them. They didn't know Tom that well when we got married, but my son Hank and Tom became very good friends.

[Assistant]
That's good. It takes a special person, too, to do that. To develop that friendship and that love with another child. Is there anything you want to talk about?

I do. You mentioned that your husband was the second to break the sound barrier. Did he come home and tell you that day? Tell us about that day that he did that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I taught two years, and then I married. My career was marriage. Marriage and widowhood.

[Assistant] Well, you've married some high achieving men, so I imagine that's a career in itself.

[User] They all were. They all were such nice guys, they really were. I came across a lot of old letters from them. Been lucky in a lot of ways, but none of them hung in there. Someone said, "Ruth, you're hard on them." But Herbert was 40 when he was killed, that's awful young. Then Kurt at 41. That was hard on my kids too, because they were so crazy about Kurt. I have the cutest picture of Kurt and Hank with their arms around each other. That was really hard on them. They didn't know Tom that well when we got married, but my son Hank and Tom became very good friends.

[Assistant]
That's good. It takes a special person, too, to do that. To develop that friendship and that love with another child. Is there anything you want to talk about?

I do. You mentioned that your husband was the second to break the sound barrier. Did he come home and tell you that day? Tell us about that day that he did that.

[User] I don't think he called to tell me. I don't think he called to tell me.

[Assistant] He just went to work and did something historic and came home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all were. They all were such nice guys, they really were. I came across a lot of old letters from them. Been lucky in a lot of ways, but none of them hung in there. Someone said, "Ruth, you're hard on them." But Herbert was 40 when he was killed, that's awful young. Then Kurt at 41. That was hard on my kids too, because they were so crazy about Kurt. I have the cutest picture of Kurt and Hank with their arms around each other. That was really hard on them. They didn't know Tom that well when we got married, but my son Hank and Tom became very good friends.

[Assistant]
That's good. It takes a special person, too, to do that. To develop that friendship and that love with another child. Is there anything you want to talk about?

I do. You mentioned that your husband was the second to break the sound barrier. Did he come home and tell you that day? Tell us about that day that he did that.

[User] I don't think he called to tell me. I don't think he called to tell me.

[Assistant] He just went to work and did something historic and came home?

[User] No, I don't think he did.

[Assistant] When did you find out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think he called to tell me. I don't think he called to tell me.

[Assistant] He just went to work and did something historic and came home?

[User] No, I don't think he did.

[Assistant] When did you find out?

[User] I don't even remember. Maybe someone at Langley told me, but I don't recall when he told me that, if he told me.

[Assistant] Did Tom talk much about his work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't think he did.

[Assistant] When did you find out?

[User] I don't even remember. Maybe someone at Langley told me, but I don't recall when he told me that, if he told me.

[Assistant] Did Tom talk much about his work?

[User] Tom? Oh yes. Tom talked a lot about his work. He worked with the universities in promoting the projects with NASA. He did a lot of traveling. He accomplished quite a bit.

[Assistant] That fits in well with what you were doing, with PEO. Working with education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even remember. Maybe someone at Langley told me, but I don't recall when he told me that, if he told me.

[Assistant] Did Tom talk much about his work?

[User] Tom? Oh yes. Tom talked a lot about his work. He worked with the universities in promoting the projects with NASA. He did a lot of traveling. He accomplished quite a bit.

[Assistant] That fits in well with what you were doing, with PEO. Working with education.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tom being in the position that he was in, did you attend a lot of activities, entertaining?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tom? Oh yes. Tom talked a lot about his work. He worked with the universities in promoting the projects with NASA. He did a lot of traveling. He accomplished quite a bit.

[Assistant] That fits in well with what you were doing, with PEO. Working with education.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tom being in the position that he was in, did you attend a lot of activities, entertaining?

[User] With Tom? Yes, I traveled a good deal with Tom.

[Assistant] Any special memories with some of those travels?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tom being in the position that he was in, did you attend a lot of activities, entertaining?

[User] With Tom? Yes, I traveled a good deal with Tom.

[Assistant] Any special memories with some of those travels?

[User] Not particularly. I can't recall any.

[Assistant] Did you visit some of the other Centers other than Dryden, obviously, you were living in that area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With Tom? Yes, I traveled a good deal with Tom.

[Assistant] Any special memories with some of those travels?

[User] Not particularly. I can't recall any.

[Assistant] Did you visit some of the other Centers other than Dryden, obviously, you were living in that area?

[User] Yes. I’m trying to think, what were some of them? I know we did, but I can't recall them now. I know we did.

[Assistant] One of the other questions I was going to ask you. I know that Herbert was a pilot when he came back to Stanley, and you had mentioned to us before that he was down in South America working for Standard Oil [Company]. How did he apply for that, how did know about that job? Do you remember how he found out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not particularly. I can't recall any.

[Assistant] Did you visit some of the other Centers other than Dryden, obviously, you were living in that area?

[User] Yes. I’m trying to think, what were some of them? I know we did, but I can't recall them now. I know we did.

[Assistant] One of the other questions I was going to ask you. I know that Herbert was a pilot when he came back to Stanley, and you had mentioned to us before that he was down in South America working for Standard Oil [Company]. How did he apply for that, how did know about that job? Do you remember how he found out?

[User] How did he get that job? [Referring to document] That tells all about him.

[Assistant] How'd he become a pilot during that time frame?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I’m trying to think, what were some of them? I know we did, but I can't recall them now. I know we did.

[Assistant] One of the other questions I was going to ask you. I know that Herbert was a pilot when he came back to Stanley, and you had mentioned to us before that he was down in South America working for Standard Oil [Company]. How did he apply for that, how did know about that job? Do you remember how he found out?

[User] How did he get that job? [Referring to document] That tells all about him.

[Assistant] How'd he become a pilot during that time frame?

[User] Well, after he graduated from college, he said he was just walking down the street one day and he saw this sign, "We need you," Uncle Sam said, "Come on and join the Army Air Corps." Back then it was called the Army Air Corps. So he just decided to join the Army Air Corps. This tells about when he joined the Army Air Corps.

[Assistant]
Okay.

It was 99th Bombardment Squadron.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How did he get that job? [Referring to document] That tells all about him.

[Assistant] How'd he become a pilot during that time frame?

[User] Well, after he graduated from college, he said he was just walking down the street one day and he saw this sign, "We need you," Uncle Sam said, "Come on and join the Army Air Corps." Back then it was called the Army Air Corps. So he just decided to join the Army Air Corps. This tells about when he joined the Army Air Corps.

[Assistant]
Okay.

It was 99th Bombardment Squadron.

[User] Then he was to be fitted for airline pilots.

[Assistant] I think I read that, that he was going to go—was it American Airlines?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, after he graduated from college, he said he was just walking down the street one day and he saw this sign, "We need you," Uncle Sam said, "Come on and join the Army Air Corps." Back then it was called the Army Air Corps. So he just decided to join the Army Air Corps. This tells about when he joined the Army Air Corps.

[Assistant]
Okay.

It was 99th Bombardment Squadron.

[User] Then he was to be fitted for airline pilots.

[Assistant] I think I read that, that he was going to go—was it American Airlines?

[User] I think so. This is when he received the Octave Chanute Award or the Air Medal. A friend of his told him that there was this job available for Standard Oil Company. He would fly for different reasons there, and Herbert said it was more like a taxi cab driver except they were driving a plane. He got tired of that, and that's why he wanted to come back to the [United] States. As I recall, he told the people—I don't know who it was—the NACA people, that he would be willing to work for them for a year without pay just to get into the organization because it was such a wonderful organization. Tom felt the same way, he said it was a fabulous organization to be working for, and he felt so lucky to be a part of the NACA clientele.

[Assistant] Did he train some of the other pilots coming up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then he was to be fitted for airline pilots.

[Assistant] I think I read that, that he was going to go—was it American Airlines?

[User] I think so. This is when he received the Octave Chanute Award or the Air Medal. A friend of his told him that there was this job available for Standard Oil Company. He would fly for different reasons there, and Herbert said it was more like a taxi cab driver except they were driving a plane. He got tired of that, and that's why he wanted to come back to the [United] States. As I recall, he told the people—I don't know who it was—the NACA people, that he would be willing to work for them for a year without pay just to get into the organization because it was such a wonderful organization. Tom felt the same way, he said it was a fabulous organization to be working for, and he felt so lucky to be a part of the NACA clientele.

[Assistant] Did he train some of the other pilots coming up?

[User] I think he trained, I think he helped with Bob Champine.

[Assistant] Yes, I think that's what I read, that he did train him. Or he was one of the ones that was instrumental in hiring him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. This is when he received the Octave Chanute Award or the Air Medal. A friend of his told him that there was this job available for Standard Oil Company. He would fly for different reasons there, and Herbert said it was more like a taxi cab driver except they were driving a plane. He got tired of that, and that's why he wanted to come back to the [United] States. As I recall, he told the people—I don't know who it was—the NACA people, that he would be willing to work for them for a year without pay just to get into the organization because it was such a wonderful organization. Tom felt the same way, he said it was a fabulous organization to be working for, and he felt so lucky to be a part of the NACA clientele.

[Assistant] Did he train some of the other pilots coming up?

[User] I think he trained, I think he helped with Bob Champine.

[Assistant] Yes, I think that's what I read, that he did train him. Or he was one of the ones that was instrumental in hiring him.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Another thing you were telling us, about when he would come to Stanley before you two were married, he would fly a plane around there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he trained, I think he helped with Bob Champine.

[Assistant] Yes, I think that's what I read, that he did train him. Or he was one of the ones that was instrumental in hiring him.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Another thing you were telling us, about when he would come to Stanley before you two were married, he would fly a plane around there.

[User] Yes, he would just rent a plane and just come and thought he'd fly around the old home place and see how things were going. He'd drop a note in my aunt's yard that said, "Meet me at the airport at such-and-such time."

[Assistant] Pretty confident that you'd be there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Another thing you were telling us, about when he would come to Stanley before you two were married, he would fly a plane around there.

[User] Yes, he would just rent a plane and just come and thought he'd fly around the old home place and see how things were going. He'd drop a note in my aunt's yard that said, "Meet me at the airport at such-and-such time."

[Assistant] Pretty confident that you'd be there.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] It said in here that he had flown over 100 different types of planes. And he was there the whole time during World War II, he was at Langley doing test flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he would just rent a plane and just come and thought he'd fly around the old home place and see how things were going. He'd drop a note in my aunt's yard that said, "Meet me at the airport at such-and-such time."

[Assistant] Pretty confident that you'd be there.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] It said in here that he had flown over 100 different types of planes. And he was there the whole time during World War II, he was at Langley doing test flights?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you two have a concern that he would go to be as part of World War II action as a pilot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] It said in here that he had flown over 100 different types of planes. And he was there the whole time during World War II, he was at Langley doing test flights?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you two have a concern that he would go to be as part of World War II action as a pilot?

[User] I think he had to take a physical, but they decided that he would be more important working for—his work was more important. The same thing happened to Tom. In fact, Tom was drafted in World War II and he thought he was going to be sent somewhere else, but they sent him back to Langley and he was put in a barracks right across from his office at NACA. He was there for three months and they decided his work was more important than being in the service, so he moved back to his office. Tom said if he lived long enough, he would write about his career in the army—it was three months. (laughter)

[Assistant] Was he doing the grants then, or what was he doing during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you two have a concern that he would go to be as part of World War II action as a pilot?

[User] I think he had to take a physical, but they decided that he would be more important working for—his work was more important. The same thing happened to Tom. In fact, Tom was drafted in World War II and he thought he was going to be sent somewhere else, but they sent him back to Langley and he was put in a barracks right across from his office at NACA. He was there for three months and they decided his work was more important than being in the service, so he moved back to his office. Tom said if he lived long enough, he would write about his career in the army—it was three months. (laughter)

[Assistant] Was he doing the grants then, or what was he doing during that time period?

[User] I don't know. It tells in his biography, I think. Grants and research. I don't know.

[Assistant] Tom was in NACA and NASA at a very interesting time, since he was there during the transition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he had to take a physical, but they decided that he would be more important working for—his work was more important. The same thing happened to Tom. In fact, Tom was drafted in World War II and he thought he was going to be sent somewhere else, but they sent him back to Langley and he was put in a barracks right across from his office at NACA. He was there for three months and they decided his work was more important than being in the service, so he moved back to his office. Tom said if he lived long enough, he would write about his career in the army—it was three months. (laughter)

[Assistant] Was he doing the grants then, or what was he doing during that time period?

[User] I don't know. It tells in his biography, I think. Grants and research. I don't know.

[Assistant] Tom was in NACA and NASA at a very interesting time, since he was there during the transition.

[User] Oh yes. He said it was wonderful. You see, he was happy in his career, he really was. He said he was lucky to be working for such a wonderful organization. But I don't know, I was just being young and immature and everything, I just didn't realize how serious his job was.

[Assistant] Well during that time period, a lot of times wives didn't always know what their husbands were doing or how dangerous those jobs were, because I think a lot of the men felt that they had to take care of this and they didn't bother them with it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. It tells in his biography, I think. Grants and research. I don't know.

[Assistant] Tom was in NACA and NASA at a very interesting time, since he was there during the transition.

[User] Oh yes. He said it was wonderful. You see, he was happy in his career, he really was. He said he was lucky to be working for such a wonderful organization. But I don't know, I was just being young and immature and everything, I just didn't realize how serious his job was.

[Assistant] Well during that time period, a lot of times wives didn't always know what their husbands were doing or how dangerous those jobs were, because I think a lot of the men felt that they had to take care of this and they didn't bother them with it.

[User] Yes. That's our daughter [referring to photograph].

[Assistant] Beautiful. And what's her name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. He said it was wonderful. You see, he was happy in his career, he really was. He said he was lucky to be working for such a wonderful organization. But I don't know, I was just being young and immature and everything, I just didn't realize how serious his job was.

[Assistant] Well during that time period, a lot of times wives didn't always know what their husbands were doing or how dangerous those jobs were, because I think a lot of the men felt that they had to take care of this and they didn't bother them with it.

[User] Yes. That's our daughter [referring to photograph].

[Assistant] Beautiful. And what's her name?

[User] Susan.

[Assistant] Susan. That's nice she's only an hour away from you, now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's our daughter [referring to photograph].

[Assistant] Beautiful. And what's her name?

[User] Susan.

[Assistant] Susan. That's nice she's only an hour away from you, now.

[User] Yeah, she's the one who lives in Yorktown now.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. The book is nice to have all of this all in one place like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Susan.

[Assistant] Susan. That's nice she's only an hour away from you, now.

[User] Yeah, she's the one who lives in Yorktown now.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. The book is nice to have all of this all in one place like that.

[User] Just little mementos.

[Assistant] Yes, this is nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, she's the one who lives in Yorktown now.

[Assistant] That's wonderful. The book is nice to have all of this all in one place like that.

[User] Just little mementos.

[Assistant] Yes, this is nice.

[User] That's my aunt that Herbert's father married. She was celebrating her 93rd birthday, and in the article in there, she said, "It's no fun growing old." It sure isn’t.

[Assistant] Interesting name. Wixie [phonetic].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just little mementos.

[Assistant] Yes, this is nice.

[User] That's my aunt that Herbert's father married. She was celebrating her 93rd birthday, and in the article in there, she said, "It's no fun growing old." It sure isn’t.

[Assistant] Interesting name. Wixie [phonetic].

[User] Wixie. I don't know where she got that name.\n\n That's my daughter and her two little children. That’s her grandson. Of course, they've grown up and married.

[Assistant] Time flies, doesn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's my aunt that Herbert's father married. She was celebrating her 93rd birthday, and in the article in there, she said, "It's no fun growing old." It sure isn’t.

[Assistant] Interesting name. Wixie [phonetic].

[User] Wixie. I don't know where she got that name.\n\n That's my daughter and her two little children. That’s her grandson. Of course, they've grown up and married.

[Assistant] Time flies, doesn't it?

[User] Oh dear, don't tell me. This is when he got the Air Medal—President [Harry S.] Truman.

[Assistant] That's right, you mentioned that to me on the phone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wixie. I don't know where she got that name.\n\n That's my daughter and her two little children. That’s her grandson. Of course, they've grown up and married.

[Assistant] Time flies, doesn't it?

[User] Oh dear, don't tell me. This is when he got the Air Medal—President [Harry S.] Truman.

[Assistant] That's right, you mentioned that to me on the phone.

[User] President Truman signed it. I gave it to my son, he has a trophy and all that, he has it framed.

[Assistant] You were there for the presentation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh dear, don't tell me. This is when he got the Air Medal—President [Harry S.] Truman.

[Assistant] That's right, you mentioned that to me on the phone.

[User] President Truman signed it. I gave it to my son, he has a trophy and all that, he has it framed.

[Assistant] You were there for the presentation?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that day. What was it like to meet the President?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] President Truman signed it. I gave it to my son, he has a trophy and all that, he has it framed.

[Assistant] You were there for the presentation?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that day. What was it like to meet the President?

[User] Oh, it was exciting. Of course, the President wasn't there, no. He just signed [the award].

[Assistant] Was this at Langley, the presentation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that day. What was it like to meet the President?

[User] Oh, it was exciting. Of course, the President wasn't there, no. He just signed [the award].

[Assistant] Was this at Langley, the presentation?

[User] Langley, yes.

[Assistant] Was he the only one getting a medal that day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was exciting. Of course, the President wasn't there, no. He just signed [the award].

[Assistant] Was this at Langley, the presentation?

[User] Langley, yes.

[Assistant] Was he the only one getting a medal that day?

[User] I think, yes.

[Assistant]
That was nice, a ceremony just for him.

Yes, that is nice. What year was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Langley, yes.

[Assistant] Was he the only one getting a medal that day?

[User] I think, yes.

[Assistant]
That was nice, a ceremony just for him.

Yes, that is nice. What year was that?

[User] Let's see, '40 -- I don't know. I think it tells it somewhere.

[Assistant]
Okay, we'll find it. I'm sure it's in there.

'49 was the Air Medal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, yes.

[Assistant]
That was nice, a ceremony just for him.

Yes, that is nice. What year was that?

[User] Let's see, '40 -- I don't know. I think it tells it somewhere.

[Assistant]
Okay, we'll find it. I'm sure it's in there.

'49 was the Air Medal.

[User] What year was that?

[Assistant] 1949 he was awarded the Air Medal for the flight that he did in 1948 when he broke the sound barrier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see, '40 -- I don't know. I think it tells it somewhere.

[Assistant]
Okay, we'll find it. I'm sure it's in there.

'49 was the Air Medal.

[User] What year was that?

[Assistant] 1949 he was awarded the Air Medal for the flight that he did in 1948 when he broke the sound barrier.

[User] Then the Octave Chanute Award, I don't know.

[Assistant]
That was also 1948.

These are wonderful pictures. Was this when he graduated from the Advanced Flying School? Oh, that's so nice. Kelly Field, Texas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What year was that?

[Assistant] 1949 he was awarded the Air Medal for the flight that he did in 1948 when he broke the sound barrier.

[User] Then the Octave Chanute Award, I don't know.

[Assistant]
That was also 1948.

These are wonderful pictures. Was this when he graduated from the Advanced Flying School? Oh, that's so nice. Kelly Field, Texas.

[User] Yes, he was at Kelly Field. Then he was at San Antonio [Texas], too.

[Assistant]
He must have been at Randolph [Air Force Base].

Are there any other stories that you can think of, or anything about that time period? Maybe about your neighborhood or some of the people you knew, that you'd like to share? Maybe talk about the way things looked, or some of the activities that you did together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then the Octave Chanute Award, I don't know.

[Assistant]
That was also 1948.

These are wonderful pictures. Was this when he graduated from the Advanced Flying School? Oh, that's so nice. Kelly Field, Texas.

[User] Yes, he was at Kelly Field. Then he was at San Antonio [Texas], too.

[Assistant]
He must have been at Randolph [Air Force Base].

Are there any other stories that you can think of, or anything about that time period? Maybe about your neighborhood or some of the people you knew, that you'd like to share? Maybe talk about the way things looked, or some of the activities that you did together?

[User] I can't think of any. We were only married ten years. Just so much. He was so busy flying and with his work and everything.\n\n Oh, we had planned to go to Nag's Head [North Carolina] the weekend that the accident happened. We had already made reservations. I said, "We don't ever do anything as a family. We've got to get together as a family." So we decided to make a trip, take the kids and go. And then, of course, we weren't able to go. But we weren't too family-oriented because he was so busy with his job.

[Assistant] I'm sure he was up early and gone in the morning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was at Kelly Field. Then he was at San Antonio [Texas], too.

[Assistant]
He must have been at Randolph [Air Force Base].

Are there any other stories that you can think of, or anything about that time period? Maybe about your neighborhood or some of the people you knew, that you'd like to share? Maybe talk about the way things looked, or some of the activities that you did together?

[User] I can't think of any. We were only married ten years. Just so much. He was so busy flying and with his work and everything.\n\n Oh, we had planned to go to Nag's Head [North Carolina] the weekend that the accident happened. We had already made reservations. I said, "We don't ever do anything as a family. We've got to get together as a family." So we decided to make a trip, take the kids and go. And then, of course, we weren't able to go. But we weren't too family-oriented because he was so busy with his job.

[Assistant] I'm sure he was up early and gone in the morning.

[User] Yes. He was away lots.

[Assistant]
It's quite a demanding job. It took a lot out of a lot of people, I'm sure.

Well, it's nice that your family's coming in to go to the [NACA] reunion this weekend.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He was away lots.

[Assistant]
It's quite a demanding job. It took a lot out of a lot of people, I'm sure.

Well, it's nice that your family's coming in to go to the [NACA] reunion this weekend.

[User] My son and daughter are coming because I wanted them to join me. But we're just going to be there for the little banquet. It's at the Reed Center. Do you know where the Reed Center is?

[Assistant] On site?

[User] It's on the field, it's at Langley, but where is it located? I’m sure they'll tell us as we drive up to the gate.

[Assistant] You stay on that entrance road as you go in, and just keep on the same road, and it's on the right-hand side.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My son and daughter are coming because I wanted them to join me. But we're just going to be there for the little banquet. It's at the Reed Center. Do you know where the Reed Center is?

[Assistant] On site?

[User] It's on the field, it's at Langley, but where is it located? I’m sure they'll tell us as we drive up to the gate.

[Assistant] You stay on that entrance road as you go in, and just keep on the same road, and it's on the right-hand side.

[User] Really? The Reed Center?

[Assistant] It's not hard to find.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's on the field, it's at Langley, but where is it located? I’m sure they'll tell us as we drive up to the gate.

[Assistant] You stay on that entrance road as you go in, and just keep on the same road, and it's on the right-hand side.

[User] Really? The Reed Center?

[Assistant] It's not hard to find.

[User] We were just wondering. Hank called me last night and wanted to know if I had the directions on how to get there. I said, "No, they'll tell us at the gate as we drive in."

[Assistant]
Don't need to know right now. That's the other thing we learn as we go through life. Some things you just don't need to know right now.

Yes, until it's time.

Well, I'm sure you’ll have a good time visiting with lots of folks. Did he ever take you back up in the airplane? You said he took you for that first ride.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really? The Reed Center?

[Assistant] It's not hard to find.

[User] We were just wondering. Hank called me last night and wanted to know if I had the directions on how to get there. I said, "No, they'll tell us at the gate as we drive in."

[Assistant]
Don't need to know right now. That's the other thing we learn as we go through life. Some things you just don't need to know right now.

Yes, until it's time.

Well, I'm sure you’ll have a good time visiting with lots of folks. Did he ever take you back up in the airplane? You said he took you for that first ride.

[User] One time, on one of his trips out to California, Edwards and Muroc, the kids and I flew out to Knoxville to be with his dad and my aunt, and on the way home, Herbert picked us up so we flew with him then. That's the only time, but he kept saying "Later on, we'll buy our own plane and we'll have family trips."

[Assistant] How old were the children that time when he flew you all home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were just wondering. Hank called me last night and wanted to know if I had the directions on how to get there. I said, "No, they'll tell us at the gate as we drive in."

[Assistant]
Don't need to know right now. That's the other thing we learn as we go through life. Some things you just don't need to know right now.

Yes, until it's time.

Well, I'm sure you’ll have a good time visiting with lots of folks. Did he ever take you back up in the airplane? You said he took you for that first ride.

[User] One time, on one of his trips out to California, Edwards and Muroc, the kids and I flew out to Knoxville to be with his dad and my aunt, and on the way home, Herbert picked us up so we flew with him then. That's the only time, but he kept saying "Later on, we'll buy our own plane and we'll have family trips."

[Assistant] How old were the children that time when he flew you all home?

[User] Well, Hank hadn't even started first grade when he was killed. I think Susan was only eight or nine, she was in about third grade.

[Assistant] That must have been pretty exciting for them, to come home in a plane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One time, on one of his trips out to California, Edwards and Muroc, the kids and I flew out to Knoxville to be with his dad and my aunt, and on the way home, Herbert picked us up so we flew with him then. That's the only time, but he kept saying "Later on, we'll buy our own plane and we'll have family trips."

[Assistant] How old were the children that time when he flew you all home?

[User] Well, Hank hadn't even started first grade when he was killed. I think Susan was only eight or nine, she was in about third grade.

[Assistant] That must have been pretty exciting for them, to come home in a plane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] These are some of the planes he flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Hank hadn't even started first grade when he was killed. I think Susan was only eight or nine, she was in about third grade.

[Assistant] That must have been pretty exciting for them, to come home in a plane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] These are some of the planes he flew.

[User] We have the Naval Air Station here, and that’s Oceana. So we had planes flying around here all the time.

[Assistant] You get just used to the noise, don't you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] These are some of the planes he flew.

[User] We have the Naval Air Station here, and that’s Oceana. So we had planes flying around here all the time.

[Assistant] You get just used to the noise, don't you?

[User] Used to it, I guess.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy living up in Alexandria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have the Naval Air Station here, and that’s Oceana. So we had planes flying around here all the time.

[Assistant] You get just used to the noise, don't you?

[User] Used to it, I guess.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy living up in Alexandria?

[User] I loved Alexandria. It's a pretty, pretty town. So much history there. It's a beautiful, beautiful place, it really is. Yes, I liked Alexandria.

[Assistant] I noticed you had a home on Admiral Drive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Used to it, I guess.

[Assistant] Did you enjoy living up in Alexandria?

[User] I loved Alexandria. It's a pretty, pretty town. So much history there. It's a beautiful, beautiful place, it really is. Yes, I liked Alexandria.

[Assistant] I noticed you had a home on Admiral Drive?

[User] Admiral Drive. It was right on the Mount Vernon Parkway down towards Mount Vernon.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to explore the area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I loved Alexandria. It's a pretty, pretty town. So much history there. It's a beautiful, beautiful place, it really is. Yes, I liked Alexandria.

[Assistant] I noticed you had a home on Admiral Drive?

[User] Admiral Drive. It was right on the Mount Vernon Parkway down towards Mount Vernon.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to explore the area?

[User] Oh yes, we used to ride our bicycles down on the bike trail to Mount Vernon.

[Assistant] That is very pretty, especially when all those cherry trees start to bloom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Admiral Drive. It was right on the Mount Vernon Parkway down towards Mount Vernon.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to explore the area?

[User] Oh yes, we used to ride our bicycles down on the bike trail to Mount Vernon.

[Assistant] That is very pretty, especially when all those cherry trees start to bloom.

[User] Oh yes, beautiful, beautiful.

[Assistant] Did he fly helicopters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, beautiful, beautiful.

[Assistant] Did he fly helicopters?

[User] I don't think he flew helicopters. Jack Reeder took us on a flight in a helicopter one time, but I don't think Herbert flew the helicopters, I don't think. Did you all know Jack Reeder?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Francis died just about two—I guess she's been gone a couple years now. Did you all ever meet Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager?

[Assistant] No. I take it you have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think he flew helicopters. Jack Reeder took us on a flight in a helicopter one time, but I don't think Herbert flew the helicopters, I don't think. Did you all know Jack Reeder?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Francis died just about two—I guess she's been gone a couple years now. Did you all ever meet Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager?

[Assistant] No. I take it you have.

[User] He didn't speak very nicely of the NACA pilots. He was a guy who did it all, not the rest of them. He said later on in his book that he's written, “Later on, two of them were killed,” like they didn't know what they were doing. You know, Howard Lilly and Herbert Hoover. But he came through it all, he knew what he was doing, but he didn't speak highly of them.

[Assistant] That's such a shame, when they were all trying to achieve the same thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Francis died just about two—I guess she's been gone a couple years now. Did you all ever meet Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager?

[Assistant] No. I take it you have.

[User] He didn't speak very nicely of the NACA pilots. He was a guy who did it all, not the rest of them. He said later on in his book that he's written, “Later on, two of them were killed,” like they didn't know what they were doing. You know, Howard Lilly and Herbert Hoover. But he came through it all, he knew what he was doing, but he didn't speak highly of them.

[Assistant] That's such a shame, when they were all trying to achieve the same thing.

[User] Yes. I think Gloria Champine feels the same way. There was an article that Chuck Yeager wrote that was not all true, and Gloria corrected it. She wrote him.

[Assistant]
Good for her.

She seems to be recording a lot of information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He didn't speak very nicely of the NACA pilots. He was a guy who did it all, not the rest of them. He said later on in his book that he's written, “Later on, two of them were killed,” like they didn't know what they were doing. You know, Howard Lilly and Herbert Hoover. But he came through it all, he knew what he was doing, but he didn't speak highly of them.

[Assistant] That's such a shame, when they were all trying to achieve the same thing.

[User] Yes. I think Gloria Champine feels the same way. There was an article that Chuck Yeager wrote that was not all true, and Gloria corrected it. She wrote him.

[Assistant]
Good for her.

She seems to be recording a lot of information.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Have you seen this? [Flight Research at Nasa Langley Research Center, by Mark A. Chambers]

[Assistant] No. I've heard about it, and I wanted to get a copy of it, but we haven't seen it yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think Gloria Champine feels the same way. There was an article that Chuck Yeager wrote that was not all true, and Gloria corrected it. She wrote him.

[Assistant]
Good for her.

She seems to be recording a lot of information.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Have you seen this? [Flight Research at Nasa Langley Research Center, by Mark A. Chambers]

[Assistant] No. I've heard about it, and I wanted to get a copy of it, but we haven't seen it yet.

[User] I sent Steve [Stefan A. Cavallo] a book. “A very nostalgic picture of Herb and all the others, long ago.” He said, "There aren't many of us left standing." "Look forward to seeing you."

[Assistant] Good. Tell him hello for us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Have you seen this? [Flight Research at Nasa Langley Research Center, by Mark A. Chambers]

[Assistant] No. I've heard about it, and I wanted to get a copy of it, but we haven't seen it yet.

[User] I sent Steve [Stefan A. Cavallo] a book. “A very nostalgic picture of Herb and all the others, long ago.” He said, "There aren't many of us left standing." "Look forward to seeing you."

[Assistant] Good. Tell him hello for us.

[User] But that, you can get that at any of the bookstores.

[Assistant]
We're going to have to look for that while we're here. I knew that they had done one, we've talked to the publishing company and I knew they had done one, so we'll have to see if we can find one.

I would imagine too, that the NACA pilots that were at Langley tended not to get the recognition that the pilots did over at Muroc or Dryden, because they were here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sent Steve [Stefan A. Cavallo] a book. “A very nostalgic picture of Herb and all the others, long ago.” He said, "There aren't many of us left standing." "Look forward to seeing you."

[Assistant] Good. Tell him hello for us.

[User] But that, you can get that at any of the bookstores.

[Assistant]
We're going to have to look for that while we're here. I knew that they had done one, we've talked to the publishing company and I knew they had done one, so we'll have to see if we can find one.

I would imagine too, that the NACA pilots that were at Langley tended not to get the recognition that the pilots did over at Muroc or Dryden, because they were here.

[User] Right, yes. It's always the one that does it the first time gets the most recognition. That's why Chuck Yeager has gotten such recognition.

[Assistant] Then there was a competition between the Air Force and then the civilian pilots, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, yes. It's always the one that does it the first time gets the most recognition. That's why Chuck Yeager has gotten such recognition.

[Assistant] Then there was a competition between the Air Force and then the civilian pilots, too.

[User] Yes. Have you ever read the book by Chuck Yeager?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well don't. (laughter)

[Assistant]
All right.

We'll take your word for it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Have you ever read the book by Chuck Yeager?

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well don't. (laughter)

[Assistant]
All right.

We'll take your word for it.

[User] Here's his book. But he's the one. He's the one that knew what he was doing. He didn't get killed. You know the book, The Right Stuff [by Tom Wolfe]? Herbert was mentioned in that, in the book The Right Stuff. I don't think he was mentioned in the movie. Have you ever visited Muroc or Edwards Air Force base?

[Assistant] We have been out there, yes. So we knew what you were talking about with the Antelope Valley environment. It is a little warm. It's just dry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Here's his book. But he's the one. He's the one that knew what he was doing. He didn't get killed. You know the book, The Right Stuff [by Tom Wolfe]? Herbert was mentioned in that, in the book The Right Stuff. I don't think he was mentioned in the movie. Have you ever visited Muroc or Edwards Air Force base?

[Assistant] We have been out there, yes. So we knew what you were talking about with the Antelope Valley environment. It is a little warm. It's just dry.

[User] Yes. Have you ever heard about Walt Williams?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User]
He was an outstanding engineer.\n\n [interruption]

This is what he says. "I never could figure out why the most arrogant bunch at Edwards were the NACA pilots."

[Assistant] This is Yeager writing [in Yeager, an Autobiography].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Have you ever heard about Walt Williams?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User]
He was an outstanding engineer.\n\n [interruption]

This is what he says. "I never could figure out why the most arrogant bunch at Edwards were the NACA pilots."

[Assistant] This is Yeager writing [in Yeager, an Autobiography].

[User] Yes. "The National Advisory Committee of Aeronautics had got into the flight test business while I was still flying the X-1. They bought a second X-1 and hired civilian test pilots to fly it. I flew it first, checked it out, then turned it over to them. Their two pilots took turns cracking the gear on landing. The X-1 demanded an experienced fighter pilot at the grounds, and those two just weren't qualified to fly it. Both of them were later killed." I mean, isn't that arrogant, to say that? "Both of them were later killed. They didn't know what they were doing,” he said. I can't stand that guy.

[Assistant] You just keep the book around so you can push it away? (laughter)


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
He was an outstanding engineer.\n\n [interruption]

This is what he says. "I never could figure out why the most arrogant bunch at Edwards were the NACA pilots."

[Assistant] This is Yeager writing [in Yeager, an Autobiography].

[User] Yes. "The National Advisory Committee of Aeronautics had got into the flight test business while I was still flying the X-1. They bought a second X-1 and hired civilian test pilots to fly it. I flew it first, checked it out, then turned it over to them. Their two pilots took turns cracking the gear on landing. The X-1 demanded an experienced fighter pilot at the grounds, and those two just weren't qualified to fly it. Both of them were later killed." I mean, isn't that arrogant, to say that? "Both of them were later killed. They didn't know what they were doing,” he said. I can't stand that guy.

[Assistant] You just keep the book around so you can push it away? (laughter)

[User] To think that's what he would he would say. Well, he was just—I don't mean this in a bad way either—but he was not educated like in engineering and doing the research work. He was just a real gutsy guy that could get up there and fly.

[Assistant] He was a pilot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. "The National Advisory Committee of Aeronautics had got into the flight test business while I was still flying the X-1. They bought a second X-1 and hired civilian test pilots to fly it. I flew it first, checked it out, then turned it over to them. Their two pilots took turns cracking the gear on landing. The X-1 demanded an experienced fighter pilot at the grounds, and those two just weren't qualified to fly it. Both of them were later killed." I mean, isn't that arrogant, to say that? "Both of them were later killed. They didn't know what they were doing,” he said. I can't stand that guy.

[Assistant] You just keep the book around so you can push it away? (laughter)

[User] To think that's what he would he would say. Well, he was just—I don't mean this in a bad way either—but he was not educated like in engineering and doing the research work. He was just a real gutsy guy that could get up there and fly.

[Assistant] He was a pilot.

[User] He was a daring devil. I don't take that away from him, but why should he criticize the ones that were trained? I think Herbert did most of the research on that X-1.

[Assistant] Well, it sells books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To think that's what he would he would say. Well, he was just—I don't mean this in a bad way either—but he was not educated like in engineering and doing the research work. He was just a real gutsy guy that could get up there and fly.

[Assistant] He was a pilot.

[User] He was a daring devil. I don't take that away from him, but why should he criticize the ones that were trained? I think Herbert did most of the research on that X-1.

[Assistant] Well, it sells books.

[User] (laughter)

[Assistant] Did you ever see the X-1 plane? Did you see the planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a daring devil. I don't take that away from him, but why should he criticize the ones that were trained? I think Herbert did most of the research on that X-1.

[Assistant] Well, it sells books.

[User] (laughter)

[Assistant] Did you ever see the X-1 plane? Did you see the planes?

[User] I saw it at the museum in Washington. The one called the [Glamorous] Glennis. Yeager named it for his wife.

[Assistant] Did you ever see any of the planes that Herbert flew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] (laughter)

[Assistant] Did you ever see the X-1 plane? Did you see the planes?

[User] I saw it at the museum in Washington. The one called the [Glamorous] Glennis. Yeager named it for his wife.

[Assistant] Did you ever see any of the planes that Herbert flew?

[User] I think I saw the P-1. That was his favorite plane. He flew some out at Langley when they had air shows, and I was out there when he had some shows.

[Assistant] So you went out to watch the air shows and he was flying some of the planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw it at the museum in Washington. The one called the [Glamorous] Glennis. Yeager named it for his wife.

[Assistant] Did you ever see any of the planes that Herbert flew?

[User] I think I saw the P-1. That was his favorite plane. He flew some out at Langley when they had air shows, and I was out there when he had some shows.

[Assistant] So you went out to watch the air shows and he was flying some of the planes?

[User] Yes, I went out when he was flying. There was an air show that he participated in.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I saw the P-1. That was his favorite plane. He flew some out at Langley when they had air shows, and I was out there when he had some shows.

[Assistant] So you went out to watch the air shows and he was flying some of the planes?

[User] Yes, I went out when he was flying. There was an air show that he participated in.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of people?

[User] Yes, a lot of people were there that day. A long time ago.

[Assistant] There's still lots of people at air shows.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I went out when he was flying. There was an air show that he participated in.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of people?

[User] Yes, a lot of people were there that day. A long time ago.

[Assistant] There's still lots of people at air shows.

[User] Herbert's been gone almost 60 years. You know, he was killed in '52. And this is 2008. It's been a long time.

[Assistant] Anybody else in the family fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a lot of people were there that day. A long time ago.

[Assistant] There's still lots of people at air shows.

[User] Herbert's been gone almost 60 years. You know, he was killed in '52. And this is 2008. It's been a long time.

[Assistant] Anybody else in the family fly?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No other pilots?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Herbert's been gone almost 60 years. You know, he was killed in '52. And this is 2008. It's been a long time.

[Assistant] Anybody else in the family fly?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No other pilots?

[User] No, my son was never interested, it never appealed to him. I don't know what got Herbert so interested in it, but just he joined the Army Air Corps and was trained and liked it. That's what he said. He was thrilled to work at NACA. I remember his saying that, after he gave up his job in South America, he offered to come and work for them without payment for a while just to just to get the job with NACA.

[Assistant] We appreciate you giving us the time today to talk to us and to look through all your albums and everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once again, yes. But it’s also interesting to note that this was about, what, twenty-seven years ago now? And there were some predictions at that time that we would totally run out of petroleum resources within twenty years. Jack, being a geologist, was one of the people who clearly didn’t believe those studies. He said, “There’s more petroleum in the ground than we know about. We just haven’t found it. It may be hard to find and it may not be very economical to recover, but there’s a lot there." But it doesn’t mean that we should rely on that. If we can come up with things like wind power. And we even looked at tides for a while, because that’s a real interesting concept, that tides are free just like the wind. You can generate electricity with tides, but it’s an expensive process. It’s still not economical to do. It was an interesting sidelight, away from pure space business, I guess.

[Assistant] It’s certainly something that has a lot of applications to the Earth as a whole.

[User] And we're going to need a lot of that when we go to Mars. We’re going to have to generate our own electricity there.

[Assistant] Absolutely, and hopefully, with recent progress and discoveries being made there, maybe that’ll happen a little sooner.

[User] Yes, if there really is water there, that sheds a whole new light. I’m very encouraged by that. I hope it’s true, and I hope it inspires some people to be a little more aggressive about the possibility of sending people there.

[Assistant] Certainly is exciting news. That would, I would hope, help spur things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we're going to need a lot of that when we go to Mars. We’re going to have to generate our own electricity there.

[Assistant] Absolutely, and hopefully, with recent progress and discoveries being made there, maybe that’ll happen a little sooner.

[User] Yes, if there really is water there, that sheds a whole new light. I’m very encouraged by that. I hope it’s true, and I hope it inspires some people to be a little more aggressive about the possibility of sending people there.

[Assistant] Certainly is exciting news. That would, I would hope, help spur things.

[User] We should go find out.

[Assistant] That’s right. You say that then after you had worked here for a while and as they were forming the Department of Energy, about that time was when you came back down to Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, if there really is water there, that sheds a whole new light. I’m very encouraged by that. I hope it’s true, and I hope it inspires some people to be a little more aggressive about the possibility of sending people there.

[Assistant] Certainly is exciting news. That would, I would hope, help spur things.

[User] We should go find out.

[Assistant] That’s right. You say that then after you had worked here for a while and as they were forming the Department of Energy, about that time was when you came back down to Houston.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had mentioned that earlier when you were first proposing the idea for the Office of Energy, that both you and Jack Schmitt had been interested in coming back down here at some point anyway. How then did that come about? Was it again contacting somebody and saying, "Okay, I’m ready for another move"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. The Canadians came up with a very good concept for how you could test the actual arm in a 1-G environment, because, as you said, it’s just not strong enough to support its own weight in 1-G. It would break. You can’t operate it. So they laid it down sideways on an air-bearing floor, on a very smooth, perfectly smooth floor, with little air jet pads to hold it up. So rather than being up like this, it’s laying on its side, but then you could actually control the arm in a 1-G environment, you know, move it around. Of course, we had computer-based simulations also that were eventually developed that [would simulate] that.\n\n We started out with a model over in Building 9—9A, I guess it is—where we used helium-filled balloons that would simulate the payloads. That’s pretty good, but it’s not obviously an accurate representation of zero-G, but it’s about as close to the real thing. If you wanted to actually get into the real cockpit and use an arm, which in this case doesn’t even look like the arm that flies on the Shuttle because it had to be beefed up a lot to do that, you could give the crews some simulation experience on retrieving and deploying payloads, which [helped with] primarily the visual cues. We spent a lot of time in building that and developing targets for the end effector, and visual cues and mirrors and cameras in the payload bay and cameras on the arm. We had to decide where do you put cameras on the arm that would give the operator the best view of what’s going on.

[Assistant] Well, certainly it sounds like an interesting job.

[User] It was. It was a fun project. I enjoyed that. I think I enjoyed it somewhat just because people said it was impossible.

[Assistant] So that’s the most fun, making the impossible possible. And here you had originally not even known what RMS was.

[User] I knew there was some mechanical arm, but that’s about all I knew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Came up to speed pretty quickly on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was a fun project. I enjoyed that. I think I enjoyed it somewhat just because people said it was impossible.

[Assistant] So that’s the most fun, making the impossible possible. And here you had originally not even known what RMS was.

[User] I knew there was some mechanical arm, but that’s about all I knew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Came up to speed pretty quickly on that.

[User] But that’s typical again of Chris Kraft, to find somebody who’s not prejudiced about something and say, "Go fix it."

[Assistant] Certainly a good type of person to pick, because they can go in open-minded and say, "Okay, what can we do with this?"


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew there was some mechanical arm, but that’s about all I knew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Came up to speed pretty quickly on that.

[User] But that’s typical again of Chris Kraft, to find somebody who’s not prejudiced about something and say, "Go fix it."

[Assistant] Certainly a good type of person to pick, because they can go in open-minded and say, "Okay, what can we do with this?"

[User] Chris has a knack for that.

[Assistant] From there, you moved on and you were involved with the Shuttle Program as a whole, the space transportation program, and getting into manifests. You were Deputy Manager of the Operations program there for a while. Did that all kind of come logically from your involvement with the arm and then previously with the policies and such?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that’s typical again of Chris Kraft, to find somebody who’s not prejudiced about something and say, "Go fix it."

[Assistant] Certainly a good type of person to pick, because they can go in open-minded and say, "Okay, what can we do with this?"

[User] Chris has a knack for that.

[Assistant] From there, you moved on and you were involved with the Shuttle Program as a whole, the space transportation program, and getting into manifests. You were Deputy Manager of the Operations program there for a while. Did that all kind of come logically from your involvement with the arm and then previously with the policies and such?

[User] I guess it was logical. It’s another one of those funny things. Glynn Lunney showed up in the office one day and said, "I’ve been offered a job in Headquarters as Deputy Assistant Administrator for Space Flight, and I’m really considering it. You spent a couple of years in Washington. Tell me about Headquarters and about living there. Where did you live?" and all of that. So we talked for probably a couple of hours about all of that. He said, “Well, I’m kind of inclined to take this job, and, oh, by the way, I’ve already talked to Chris, and if I take this, then you’re going to come up and take over my job while I’m gone.”\n\n I said, “Well, thanks for telling me that.” [Laughter]\n\n So he went to Washington, and while he was gone, I guess I was originally Acting Manager of SPIDO, Shuttle Payload Integration and Development Office. Then sometime, I think before Glynn came back, we changed the name to STS Operations, which was Space Transportation System Operations, which was probably more descriptive of what we were doing, because we were involved in things other than just the payload integration at that time—how do you actually operate the Shuttle. So, yes, that’s another one of those stories.

[Assistant] You always seem to be in the right place at the right time for these jobs.