[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time there wasn’t a lot of that. We solicited it from time to time, but they were sort of still thinking through their own heads, and they were really asking us, “What’s the requirement?” So it was more something that we just had to come—in order to get comfortable that we could safely fly.

[Assistant] Did you have an idea of who some of these payload providers would be, as far as on the commercial side?

[User] At that time, not really. It was interesting; [there was a lot of discussion going on about putting the Intelsat satellites in the Shuttle.] [So,] the very first [payload] safety [requirements] document we built [was for the Intelsat satellite.] As a matter of fact, I still have that. It’s the first safety requirements document for Shuttle that was for payloads. I’ve got it someplace. So we did build a little safety requirements thing and talk to the contractors that were providing the Intel sat and told them, you know, kind of what we thought the requirements might be, if that ever happened.

[Assistant] Working with the Department of Defense, did you have a lot of suggestions from them on how they wanted things to be done as far as for their future payloads?

[User] No, not really. We had a lot of interface with them in terms of getting the payloads they were designing compatible with flying in the Shuttle, but there wasn’t a lot of discussion about the things they wanted the Shuttle to do. There was some, but the Shuttle basically is take you into orbit and throw you out, and then you go wherever you’re going to go. So if you think about it, the only kinds of discussions we had—as a matter of fact, we did have some interesting ones on how do you get them out of the payload bay. [Laughs] We built some unique hardware to deploy a payload once.

[Assistant] Are there any of those that you’d like to share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time, not really. It was interesting; [there was a lot of discussion going on about putting the Intelsat satellites in the Shuttle.] [So,] the very first [payload] safety [requirements] document we built [was for the Intelsat satellite.] As a matter of fact, I still have that. It’s the first safety requirements document for Shuttle that was for payloads. I’ve got it someplace. So we did build a little safety requirements thing and talk to the contractors that were providing the Intel sat and told them, you know, kind of what we thought the requirements might be, if that ever happened.

[Assistant] Working with the Department of Defense, did you have a lot of suggestions from them on how they wanted things to be done as far as for their future payloads?

[User] No, not really. We had a lot of interface with them in terms of getting the payloads they were designing compatible with flying in the Shuttle, but there wasn’t a lot of discussion about the things they wanted the Shuttle to do. There was some, but the Shuttle basically is take you into orbit and throw you out, and then you go wherever you’re going to go. So if you think about it, the only kinds of discussions we had—as a matter of fact, we did have some interesting ones on how do you get them out of the payload bay. [Laughs] We built some unique hardware to deploy a payload once.

[Assistant] Are there any of those that you’d like to share with us?

[User] I’m not sure I can. Those we all classified payloads.

[Assistant] Okay. At what point do you feel that the commercial sector decided that going with the Shuttle to release their payloads was a good idea? Did you feel like you were getting lots of interest from them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Glynn started a lot of that, and then I followed up. Basically, when he started that whole organization, he had a group that would do the engineering piece of it, and had a group that did all the mission requirements, mission planning kind of piece\n\n Then there was a group that was the group I led before I became the head of the office, which was the folks that did the actual interface with the customer, the Payload Integration Group. So we simply went out and looked for folks that were skilled at interfacing with people and collecting requirements and getting them all put together, because our basic job was to get all that information. We used the Engineering Group that was in that organization to help with the engineering interfaces, and we used the Ops [Operations] Planning guys to help with what the mission requirements were for this particular payload. But the group that I started out in was responsible for the direct interface with the customer that was providing the hardware, and getting all that put together so that the total system could proceed to plan and implement the mission.

[Assistant] What do you feel that you brought from your Mercury-Gemini-Apollo experiences, that you were able to use in doing this part for this whole new way of doing space exploration?

[User] Other than the thirst for human spaceflight, the discipline and rigor associated with the things that we picked up on while I was supporting the early programs. You learned an awful lot as you went through those experiences. When things failed and didn’t work, you create that “Don’t ever do that again” or “Do that different.” So it was really more just the knowledge you obtained from having done a lot of that stuff, to apply it to the next thing that came along, and that’s the way things evolved. I can’t think of any big, show-stopping, bright thing that I brought with me.

[Assistant] Day-to-day, on-the-job training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the first Shuttle mission and where you were, and then talk about the first payload that you saw go up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than the thirst for human spaceflight, the discipline and rigor associated with the things that we picked up on while I was supporting the early programs. You learned an awful lot as you went through those experiences. When things failed and didn’t work, you create that “Don’t ever do that again” or “Do that different.” So it was really more just the knowledge you obtained from having done a lot of that stuff, to apply it to the next thing that came along, and that’s the way things evolved. I can’t think of any big, show-stopping, bright thing that I brought with me.

[Assistant] Day-to-day, on-the-job training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the first Shuttle mission and where you were, and then talk about the first payload that you saw go up.

[User] Well, the early shuttle missions, of course, the very first Shuttle flights, I was intently focused on the payload part, okay, which wasn’t to come yet, because we didn’t put payloads on the first flight. There was a lot of instrumentation in the payload bay to measure what was going on, so we were pretty much in a mode of looking at the data and just keeping our fingers crossed. But we were really focused on getting the payloads ready for the subsequent missions, and so I was not heavily involved in the preparation and the operation of the first Shuttle flight.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about the ones that you were, those first ones and the payloads and how it went, and then what did you learn from those first ones that helped you go on to the next one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about the first Shuttle mission and where you were, and then talk about the first payload that you saw go up.

[User] Well, the early shuttle missions, of course, the very first Shuttle flights, I was intently focused on the payload part, okay, which wasn’t to come yet, because we didn’t put payloads on the first flight. There was a lot of instrumentation in the payload bay to measure what was going on, so we were pretty much in a mode of looking at the data and just keeping our fingers crossed. But we were really focused on getting the payloads ready for the subsequent missions, and so I was not heavily involved in the preparation and the operation of the first Shuttle flight.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about the ones that you were, those first ones and the payloads and how it went, and then what did you learn from those first ones that helped you go on to the next one.

[User] Hmm. Well, it was mainly getting the experience associated with actually flying something in the payload bay. It was a pretty standard process, in terms of we would change things based on what we learned on the first few flights, and do things a little differently because it didn’t work quite so well and that sort of thing. But it was pretty much the standard thing you go through as you do something for the first time and then keep repeating it.

[Assistant] Were there any of those that were more memorable than others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the early shuttle missions, of course, the very first Shuttle flights, I was intently focused on the payload part, okay, which wasn’t to come yet, because we didn’t put payloads on the first flight. There was a lot of instrumentation in the payload bay to measure what was going on, so we were pretty much in a mode of looking at the data and just keeping our fingers crossed. But we were really focused on getting the payloads ready for the subsequent missions, and so I was not heavily involved in the preparation and the operation of the first Shuttle flight.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about the ones that you were, those first ones and the payloads and how it went, and then what did you learn from those first ones that helped you go on to the next one.

[User] Hmm. Well, it was mainly getting the experience associated with actually flying something in the payload bay. It was a pretty standard process, in terms of we would change things based on what we learned on the first few flights, and do things a little differently because it didn’t work quite so well and that sort of thing. But it was pretty much the standard thing you go through as you do something for the first time and then keep repeating it.

[Assistant] Were there any of those that were more memorable than others?

[User] Gosh, I’d have to go back almost and look at the manifest. [Laughs]

[Assistant] There were a lot, weren’t there? [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Well, it was mainly getting the experience associated with actually flying something in the payload bay. It was a pretty standard process, in terms of we would change things based on what we learned on the first few flights, and do things a little differently because it didn’t work quite so well and that sort of thing. But it was pretty much the standard thing you go through as you do something for the first time and then keep repeating it.

[Assistant] Were there any of those that were more memorable than others?

[User] Gosh, I’d have to go back almost and look at the manifest. [Laughs]

[Assistant] There were a lot, weren’t there? [Laughter]

[User] There were a lot, yes. I’m sure I could come up with some “Wow,” but not right off the top of my head.

[Assistant] Well, maybe we could pursue that in a future time, because I know we’ve had some of the astronauts talk about the different payloads that they were responsible for and the new duties that they worked, because you were working now not just with the typical astronauts that you had in the Apollo days, but you were working with a whole different type of crew with the mission specialists that were responsible for those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gosh, I’d have to go back almost and look at the manifest. [Laughs]

[Assistant] There were a lot, weren’t there? [Laughter]

[User] There were a lot, yes. I’m sure I could come up with some “Wow,” but not right off the top of my head.

[Assistant] Well, maybe we could pursue that in a future time, because I know we’ve had some of the astronauts talk about the different payloads that they were responsible for and the new duties that they worked, because you were working now not just with the typical astronauts that you had in the Apollo days, but you were working with a whole different type of crew with the mission specialists that were responsible for those.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything you can share with us on interfacing with this new group of people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a lot, yes. I’m sure I could come up with some “Wow,” but not right off the top of my head.

[Assistant] Well, maybe we could pursue that in a future time, because I know we’ve had some of the astronauts talk about the different payloads that they were responsible for and the new duties that they worked, because you were working now not just with the typical astronauts that you had in the Apollo days, but you were working with a whole different type of crew with the mission specialists that were responsible for those.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything you can share with us on interfacing with this new group of people?

[User] It was just a great—I mean, you’re talking about a totally dynamic, involved environment. It was just a team. Everybody pulled together, and it was just a constant [thrill,] you would come in every morning and you’re [in a] “Wow” kind of environment. [Laughs] So the crews were all just totally cooperative and dedicated to figuring out how to make it work and making the customers happy. So it was just a unique time, I guess, but I can’t think of any real showstoppers.

[Assistant] It was an interesting time for you careerwise, because your position and responsibilities changed quite a bit during that ’75 to ’89 time period, where you moved a lot more into a higher level of management.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything you can share with us on interfacing with this new group of people?

[User] It was just a great—I mean, you’re talking about a totally dynamic, involved environment. It was just a team. Everybody pulled together, and it was just a constant [thrill,] you would come in every morning and you’re [in a] “Wow” kind of environment. [Laughs] So the crews were all just totally cooperative and dedicated to figuring out how to make it work and making the customers happy. So it was just a unique time, I guess, but I can’t think of any real showstoppers.

[Assistant] It was an interesting time for you careerwise, because your position and responsibilities changed quite a bit during that ’75 to ’89 time period, where you moved a lot more into a higher level of management.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Now you were also responsible for more budgetary and personnel. How did that impact your day-to-day operations on what you had previously done and now you were being responsible for so much more?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just a great—I mean, you’re talking about a totally dynamic, involved environment. It was just a team. Everybody pulled together, and it was just a constant [thrill,] you would come in every morning and you’re [in a] “Wow” kind of environment. [Laughs] So the crews were all just totally cooperative and dedicated to figuring out how to make it work and making the customers happy. So it was just a unique time, I guess, but I can’t think of any real showstoppers.

[Assistant] It was an interesting time for you careerwise, because your position and responsibilities changed quite a bit during that ’75 to ’89 time period, where you moved a lot more into a higher level of management.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Now you were also responsible for more budgetary and personnel. How did that impact your day-to-day operations on what you had previously done and now you were being responsible for so much more?

[User] Well, I’m a pretty laid-back person, and so I didn’t really get all upset with a lot of the trauma that occurred from time to time because somebody didn’t like what you did to them or whatever. So I just pretty much gravitated through that time period and did whatever they told me to do, and just pulled it into my job jar and did it, you know, and just pressed on. The least fun thing we ever did was budgets and dollars. [Laughs] But I even got to the point where I could handle that without getting all torn up.

[Assistant] I know that, from some things that we’ve read, that there was a bit of tension through the space agency, because it was the end of Apollo, and Shuttle wasn’t coming on line as fast as they had hoped. Were you having to deal with a lot of the issues of reduction in force?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Both; there were plans in place, but of course, we had never had one of those kinds of things before, and so it was a pretty top-level kind of a plan. So we pretty much pulled the plan out and made sure we were doing all those things, and then figuring out what else we needed to do. We had a good team of people working to make sure that we got everything, at least to be sure we kept the data that we thought we’d need.

[Assistant] How long did you stay in this role of working with that investigation?

[User] Oh, gosh, I don’t recall exactly how long it was. I’d have to go back and look. It was probably, my guess would be, several weeks before they formed the formal board, etc., and we transitioned what we were doing to that formal investigation process. I can’t remember how long. I’m sure it’s on the record someplace, but I would guess it was at least several weeks and maybe a couple of months.

[Assistant] Were you involved then with the formal board as well?

[User] Only in an indirect sense, in support kind of things, because of my background, etc., but not directly. We did brief them some in what all we’d done, so I was indirectly involved [from that perspective].

[Assistant] During that time period when the investigation was going on, were you keeping up with their findings and what the discussion was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh, I don’t recall exactly how long it was. I’d have to go back and look. It was probably, my guess would be, several weeks before they formed the formal board, etc., and we transitioned what we were doing to that formal investigation process. I can’t remember how long. I’m sure it’s on the record someplace, but I would guess it was at least several weeks and maybe a couple of months.

[Assistant] Were you involved then with the formal board as well?

[User] Only in an indirect sense, in support kind of things, because of my background, etc., but not directly. We did brief them some in what all we’d done, so I was indirectly involved [from that perspective].

[Assistant] During that time period when the investigation was going on, were you keeping up with their findings and what the discussion was?

[User] Sure. Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have anything else during the time period for testimony or parts of what you did through offering more information?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only in an indirect sense, in support kind of things, because of my background, etc., but not directly. We did brief them some in what all we’d done, so I was indirectly involved [from that perspective].

[Assistant] During that time period when the investigation was going on, were you keeping up with their findings and what the discussion was?

[User] Sure. Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have anything else during the time period for testimony or parts of what you did through offering more information?

[User] I’m not sure what you mean.

[Assistant] What was your involvement up until the time—I guess from the time that you turned that information over until actually the Shuttle went back to return to flight? What all were you doing during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was fortunate in that the system had been running for a long time. A lot of the hiccups associated with the early startups in terms of the integration of those things—you know, when the program first started up, the responsibilities for integrating the solids to the stack and the tank to the stacks and the engines, and getting all that interfaces squared away, was a huge problem. Fortunately, those interface issues and processes had been pretty much worked out by the time I was Program Manager, and so I found it to be a reasonably—you know, there were always topics and issues to work, but everybody was on mostly the same page in terms of trying to make it work out right.

[Assistant] A couple of the issues that I know you tackled while you were in there was, one, with the hydrogen leak in the Shuttle fleet.

[User] Yes. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Oh, that drove us crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, tell us how you got that resolved and about the process, because the fleet was grounded for a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Oh, that drove us crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, tell us how you got that resolved and about the process, because the fleet was grounded for a while.

[User] Yes. Well, we detected that leak, and we pulled together a team and tried to figure out where it was coming from, etc. Gosh, that’s a long time ago. Couldn’t find it and couldn’t find it, and finally went back out to the pad, and sure enough, it was still there. Finally the team of guys—and I don’t recall exactly who; I know Chet [Chester A.] Vaughan was on the team and some other folks—came up and found the source of the leak. It was fairly straightforward to fix it once we found it, but it was extremely and difficult and trying, I mean, to figure out where in the world that was coming from. Of course, it drove the whole team crazy for months.

[Assistant] Was that your decision to ground the fleet until you could find it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, that drove us crazy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, tell us how you got that resolved and about the process, because the fleet was grounded for a while.

[User] Yes. Well, we detected that leak, and we pulled together a team and tried to figure out where it was coming from, etc. Gosh, that’s a long time ago. Couldn’t find it and couldn’t find it, and finally went back out to the pad, and sure enough, it was still there. Finally the team of guys—and I don’t recall exactly who; I know Chet [Chester A.] Vaughan was on the team and some other folks—came up and found the source of the leak. It was fairly straightforward to fix it once we found it, but it was extremely and difficult and trying, I mean, to figure out where in the world that was coming from. Of course, it drove the whole team crazy for months.

[Assistant] Was that your decision to ground the fleet until you could find it?

[User] There wasn’t any doubt in my mind that was the right thing to do. I’m sure we had a telecon [teleconference] with Washington [D.C.] [and] that I said, “Yes, we definitely think we need to fix this before we fly.” Everybody agreed, so [we did get on with finding and fixing the leak].

[Assistant] Another issue that, as you mentioned, that always cropped up here and there, of course, was cost and budgets. I understand that you initiated a planning effort called Shuttle Vision 2000 that would reduce the cost of the Shuttle operations. Could you share some details about that and why you initiated that whole plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a pain for technical people to have to worry about that, but I didn’t see a lot of protecting turf kind of reaction. Everybody pretty much got on the same page that we had to do this, and jumped in and tried to make it happen.

[Assistant] During the nineties there was an upgrade of the Orbiters. How were you involved in setting that in place?

[User] Well, there was a lot of discussion about upgrades, and really, it was just a topic of conversation pretty much while I was in the Shuttle Program Office. When I got to Engineering, it became a little more serious.\n\n So we put together a team of folks to go look at each of the subsystems and to come back and talk about should we upgrade; if we should, why? And what were the penalties in not doing that, etc., etc. And went through each subsystem and talked about what are we going to have to do to fly this thing for another ten years, and what are the downsides associated with that for this particular piece of hardware. Put all that together and then took it to the Shuttle Program in terms of some ideas and concepts for what we might do to upgrade the vehicle to keep it flying efficiently.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I wanted to ask you, too, or mention that when you were still leading the Shuttle Program that you got to welcome a new Orbiter into the fleet when the\n\n Endeavour\n\n arrived.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That would be a nice memory for us to hear about. How were you involved through the design and development of that Orbiter during the manufacture of it? Were you part of the team that basically brought\n\n Endeavour\n\n online?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was a lot of discussion about upgrades, and really, it was just a topic of conversation pretty much while I was in the Shuttle Program Office. When I got to Engineering, it became a little more serious.\n\n So we put together a team of folks to go look at each of the subsystems and to come back and talk about should we upgrade; if we should, why? And what were the penalties in not doing that, etc., etc. And went through each subsystem and talked about what are we going to have to do to fly this thing for another ten years, and what are the downsides associated with that for this particular piece of hardware. Put all that together and then took it to the Shuttle Program in terms of some ideas and concepts for what we might do to upgrade the vehicle to keep it flying efficiently.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I wanted to ask you, too, or mention that when you were still leading the Shuttle Program that you got to welcome a new Orbiter into the fleet when the\n\n Endeavour\n\n arrived.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That would be a nice memory for us to hear about. How were you involved through the design and development of that Orbiter during the manufacture of it? Were you part of the team that basically brought\n\n Endeavour\n\n online?

[User] Well, of course, the design had all been done. It was a matter of getting the funding associated with building another unit, and I spent a lot of time out looking at the hardware and checking on how things were going and that sort of thing. But it was mainly Rockwell and guys doing their thing; I didn’t find it to be a big deal other than happy times to get another vehicle in the fleet and just sort of keeping your eyeball on it to make sure it was staying on track. The guys did a great job.

[Assistant] Well, the spacecraft was reported to be a 1.5 billion investment, but it’s supposedly arrived for $50 million less than what it had been forecast. Was that a nice—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That would be a nice memory for us to hear about. How were you involved through the design and development of that Orbiter during the manufacture of it? Were you part of the team that basically brought\n\n Endeavour\n\n online?

[User] Well, of course, the design had all been done. It was a matter of getting the funding associated with building another unit, and I spent a lot of time out looking at the hardware and checking on how things were going and that sort of thing. But it was mainly Rockwell and guys doing their thing; I didn’t find it to be a big deal other than happy times to get another vehicle in the fleet and just sort of keeping your eyeball on it to make sure it was staying on track. The guys did a great job.

[Assistant] Well, the spacecraft was reported to be a 1.5 billion investment, but it’s supposedly arrived for $50 million less than what it had been forecast. Was that a nice—

[User] Fifty million out of 1.5 billion doesn’t even—[Laughs]

[Assistant] Okay. It said a lot to me. [Laughter] Now I’ve been corrected. I’m understanding more about budgets now.\n\n A second Shuttle Carrier Aircraft came into service right at the same time, so you were able to have two new pieces of equipment. Again being a part of Air Ops [Operations], was that part of your area, too, when the new SCA came on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, the design had all been done. It was a matter of getting the funding associated with building another unit, and I spent a lot of time out looking at the hardware and checking on how things were going and that sort of thing. But it was mainly Rockwell and guys doing their thing; I didn’t find it to be a big deal other than happy times to get another vehicle in the fleet and just sort of keeping your eyeball on it to make sure it was staying on track. The guys did a great job.

[Assistant] Well, the spacecraft was reported to be a 1.5 billion investment, but it’s supposedly arrived for $50 million less than what it had been forecast. Was that a nice—

[User] Fifty million out of 1.5 billion doesn’t even—[Laughs]

[Assistant] Okay. It said a lot to me. [Laughter] Now I’ve been corrected. I’m understanding more about budgets now.\n\n A second Shuttle Carrier Aircraft came into service right at the same time, so you were able to have two new pieces of equipment. Again being a part of Air Ops [Operations], was that part of your area, too, when the new SCA came on?

[User] Well, the carrier was mainly handled by the MOD aircraft guys, okay? They really took care of that.

[Assistant] During the early nineties NASA began the talks with the Russian Space Agency about putting an astronaut on the Mir. Then that evolved into the Shuttle going to the Mir as well. I know that you were back in the Engineering Directorate when a lot of that happened, but were you involved with those early talks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fifty million out of 1.5 billion doesn’t even—[Laughs]

[Assistant] Okay. It said a lot to me. [Laughter] Now I’ve been corrected. I’m understanding more about budgets now.\n\n A second Shuttle Carrier Aircraft came into service right at the same time, so you were able to have two new pieces of equipment. Again being a part of Air Ops [Operations], was that part of your area, too, when the new SCA came on?

[User] Well, the carrier was mainly handled by the MOD aircraft guys, okay? They really took care of that.

[Assistant] During the early nineties NASA began the talks with the Russian Space Agency about putting an astronaut on the Mir. Then that evolved into the Shuttle going to the Mir as well. I know that you were back in the Engineering Directorate when a lot of that happened, but were you involved with those early talks?

[User] No, they had a separate group of folks dealing with the Russians for the Mir thing. No, the basic Shuttle Program was really concentrating on flying Shuttles, and there was another group of guys off talking to the Russians about doing Mir. Then I moved to Engineering, so I had even less interface with it. So I didn’t really have much involvement in Shuttle-Mir.

[Assistant] Then the Station; I know the first module launched in ’98, but as you mentioned, you had done payloads so much earlier, and then some of those aspects transferred over. Were you involved at all with the early days of preparing for the Station as far as the Shuttle was going to be impacted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, for space exploration, it’s a different ball game. The payloads will be pretty much associated with the kinds of things that you want to provide to the crew so that they can contribute to the scientific knowledge associated with whatever the mission is. The aspects that we, of course, learned in the Payload Office in Houston was more associated with—and the Shuttle—with the integration of all these things. So we learned a lot about how you take other people’s hardware and put it into a system, but in terms of the payloads themselves, we didn’t really get that involved in what they were doing and why they were doing it once they got to wherever they were going.

[Assistant] But the operational aspect taught about how everything affects everything, and impacts, and the volume and the weight. All of that had a big bearing on what you did?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] You have been in a unique position, because you worked so much in those areas for supporting the Shuttle system for NASA, but then when you left, you went on the commercial side and are still working in that operation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us how the two differ, working on the commercial side versus the government side, to meet the goals of the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] You have been in a unique position, because you worked so much in those areas for supporting the Shuttle system for NASA, but then when you left, you went on the commercial side and are still working in that operation.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us how the two differ, working on the commercial side versus the government side, to meet the goals of the program.

[User] The interesting thing to me is a lot of the similarities. The major difference, of course, is on the commercial side there’s a certain amount of focus, attention, that has to be paid to making profit and keeping the business healthy. But in terms of the interface in a day-to-day basis, my experience has been that on the technical side the thought processes are very similar. The goals and objectives are very similar. There’s not a lot of difference between what the technical guys worry about on the NASA side versus this technical team on the contractor’s side.\n\n Indeed, the other similarity that has been interesting to me is while on the government side you always worried about how much budget you’ve got; do you have enough money to do the program? On the contractor’s side you’re worried about I’ve got to get this done for what I told them I would do it for, because if I don’t, I’m going to get hit. So the objectives there are fairly common, if you think about it, and if you create this communication and discussion path between the two, it’s amazing to me how your goals and objectives fit. [Laughs] So I haven’t found it to be like a day-night shift at all.

[Assistant] Well, in your previous work with JSC, you certainly dealt with a lot of different type of contractors, and then now being on the other side, I guess that understanding and those dealings, did that help you be able to understand NASA’s expectations and the way they work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us how the two differ, working on the commercial side versus the government side, to meet the goals of the program.

[User] The interesting thing to me is a lot of the similarities. The major difference, of course, is on the commercial side there’s a certain amount of focus, attention, that has to be paid to making profit and keeping the business healthy. But in terms of the interface in a day-to-day basis, my experience has been that on the technical side the thought processes are very similar. The goals and objectives are very similar. There’s not a lot of difference between what the technical guys worry about on the NASA side versus this technical team on the contractor’s side.\n\n Indeed, the other similarity that has been interesting to me is while on the government side you always worried about how much budget you’ve got; do you have enough money to do the program? On the contractor’s side you’re worried about I’ve got to get this done for what I told them I would do it for, because if I don’t, I’m going to get hit. So the objectives there are fairly common, if you think about it, and if you create this communication and discussion path between the two, it’s amazing to me how your goals and objectives fit. [Laughs] So I haven’t found it to be like a day-night shift at all.

[Assistant] Well, in your previous work with JSC, you certainly dealt with a lot of different type of contractors, and then now being on the other side, I guess that understanding and those dealings, did that help you be able to understand NASA’s expectations and the way they work?

[User] Sure. Yes. Oh yes, sure. Yes. I have a good feeling for what’s motivating the guys on the NASA side. No question about that, because I’ve been there. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And helped create it. What do you think was the biggest challenge of all that you did when you were working as part of the Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yes. Oh yes, sure. Yes. I have a good feeling for what’s motivating the guys on the NASA side. No question about that, because I’ve been there. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And helped create it. What do you think was the biggest challenge of all that you did when you were working as part of the Shuttle Program?

[User] Gee whiz. Probably the biggest challenge was keeping some kind of a personal life alive, because the programs can just totally eat you up, especially the big ones like what we had down here at JSC. They can just eat you up if you let them do that.\n\n In terms of challenges within the program, probably the biggest one I found was keeping the organization—not the Shuttle organization itself, but all the supporting organizations—all aligned. In other words, like the Mission Ops guys, the Flight Crew Ops guys, the Engineering Directorate, keeping those guys all aligned from a management sense down as to what we’re trying to do, and what our real goals and objectives are, and what are the important things we need to be worried about, because you had to carve out the time to go have those interfaces and discussions and be sure that everybody’s working off the same page. I wouldn’t say it was a huge challenge, but it’s just one of the things you had to pay attention to.

[Assistant] So are there any essential tips you’d like to share with us on what you did successfully to keep those aligned and keeping everybody pointed in the right direction?

[User] Communications. Set up the process to talk. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what it’s all about.

[Assistant] What do you think to be the most rewarding aspect of when you worked in the Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gee whiz. Probably the biggest challenge was keeping some kind of a personal life alive, because the programs can just totally eat you up, especially the big ones like what we had down here at JSC. They can just eat you up if you let them do that.\n\n In terms of challenges within the program, probably the biggest one I found was keeping the organization—not the Shuttle organization itself, but all the supporting organizations—all aligned. In other words, like the Mission Ops guys, the Flight Crew Ops guys, the Engineering Directorate, keeping those guys all aligned from a management sense down as to what we’re trying to do, and what our real goals and objectives are, and what are the important things we need to be worried about, because you had to carve out the time to go have those interfaces and discussions and be sure that everybody’s working off the same page. I wouldn’t say it was a huge challenge, but it’s just one of the things you had to pay attention to.

[Assistant] So are there any essential tips you’d like to share with us on what you did successfully to keep those aligned and keeping everybody pointed in the right direction?

[User] Communications. Set up the process to talk. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what it’s all about.

[Assistant] What do you think to be the most rewarding aspect of when you worked in the Shuttle Program?

[User] Oh, there’s no question—there’s two things. One is seeing the vehicle fly and having a successful mission. Oh, what a great experience that is. The other most rewarding thing is watching the people grow. I just had a blast watching the folks that used to be reports to reports to reports within Engineering or within the Shuttle Program, how they’ve grown and matured and taken on new stuff. So it’s a combination of watching the successes occur and watching the people grow.

[Assistant] Are there any other thoughts? When you were thinking about coming in today, are there other aspects of the Shuttle Program or some of the experiences that you can think of that you would like to discuss with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Communications. Set up the process to talk. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what it’s all about.

[Assistant] What do you think to be the most rewarding aspect of when you worked in the Shuttle Program?

[User] Oh, there’s no question—there’s two things. One is seeing the vehicle fly and having a successful mission. Oh, what a great experience that is. The other most rewarding thing is watching the people grow. I just had a blast watching the folks that used to be reports to reports to reports within Engineering or within the Shuttle Program, how they’ve grown and matured and taken on new stuff. So it’s a combination of watching the successes occur and watching the people grow.

[Assistant] Are there any other thoughts? When you were thinking about coming in today, are there other aspects of the Shuttle Program or some of the experiences that you can think of that you would like to discuss with us?

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that we haven’t already talked about.

[Assistant]
I’m believe Jennifer has a couple of questions for you.

I have some questions about payloads and then just general questions for you about the Center. The Get Away Special canisters, is that something that your office had come up with, that design?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, there’s no question—there’s two things. One is seeing the vehicle fly and having a successful mission. Oh, what a great experience that is. The other most rewarding thing is watching the people grow. I just had a blast watching the folks that used to be reports to reports to reports within Engineering or within the Shuttle Program, how they’ve grown and matured and taken on new stuff. So it’s a combination of watching the successes occur and watching the people grow.

[Assistant] Are there any other thoughts? When you were thinking about coming in today, are there other aspects of the Shuttle Program or some of the experiences that you can think of that you would like to discuss with us?

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that we haven’t already talked about.

[Assistant]
I’m believe Jennifer has a couple of questions for you.

I have some questions about payloads and then just general questions for you about the Center. The Get Away Special canisters, is that something that your office had come up with, that design?

[User] It came up while I was there, yes. I wouldn’t take any credit for it, though. [Laughs]

[Assistant] All right. What sort of involvement did you have with the student experiments? Were you interfacing with the students or the schools as they were working those experiments that were going to be included on the Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that we haven’t already talked about.

[Assistant]
I’m believe Jennifer has a couple of questions for you.

I have some questions about payloads and then just general questions for you about the Center. The Get Away Special canisters, is that something that your office had come up with, that design?

[User] It came up while I was there, yes. I wouldn’t take any credit for it, though. [Laughs]

[Assistant] All right. What sort of involvement did you have with the student experiments? Were you interfacing with the students or the schools as they were working those experiments that were going to be included on the Shuttle?

[User] No. I was very supportive of it. That all happened when I was in more of a management role, and so I did not. We had people interfacing with all that, but I wasn’t directly interfacing with it. I was just one of the people that said yes, let’s make this happen.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were doing some tours in Europe, trying to promote, basically, the Space Shuttle and its capability for payloads. Can you share with us some of those recollections that you had and some of the countries you might have visited?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It came up while I was there, yes. I wouldn’t take any credit for it, though. [Laughs]

[Assistant] All right. What sort of involvement did you have with the student experiments? Were you interfacing with the students or the schools as they were working those experiments that were going to be included on the Shuttle?

[User] No. I was very supportive of it. That all happened when I was in more of a management role, and so I did not. We had people interfacing with all that, but I wasn’t directly interfacing with it. I was just one of the people that said yes, let’s make this happen.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were doing some tours in Europe, trying to promote, basically, the Space Shuttle and its capability for payloads. Can you share with us some of those recollections that you had and some of the countries you might have visited?

[User] Oh, gosh, we spent a lot of time in England and briefed the government and industry teams on how you could use the Shuttle. We spent a lot of time in France and Italy doing the same thing, and Germany, also. So it was mainly through the major countries in Europe. The objective was to make them aware and try to convince them that flying their payloads on Shuttle could be made easy and doable, and get them interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Was there any competition in the late seventies and early eighties with the Space Shuttle, in terms of deploying payloads, that you felt you were competing against?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was very supportive of it. That all happened when I was in more of a management role, and so I did not. We had people interfacing with all that, but I wasn’t directly interfacing with it. I was just one of the people that said yes, let’s make this happen.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you were doing some tours in Europe, trying to promote, basically, the Space Shuttle and its capability for payloads. Can you share with us some of those recollections that you had and some of the countries you might have visited?

[User] Oh, gosh, we spent a lot of time in England and briefed the government and industry teams on how you could use the Shuttle. We spent a lot of time in France and Italy doing the same thing, and Germany, also. So it was mainly through the major countries in Europe. The objective was to make them aware and try to convince them that flying their payloads on Shuttle could be made easy and doable, and get them interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Was there any competition in the late seventies and early eighties with the Space Shuttle, in terms of deploying payloads, that you felt you were competing against?

[User] We didn’t have the sense. Of course, the expendable launch vehicles were still around, and they were doing stuff at the time, so I’m sure they felt we were trying to inject ourselves on their turf. [Laughs] But we were mainly just interested in making the Shuttle Program do what it’s supposed to do. Of course, we weren’t in the business of making money, and so from that point of view we didn’t sense the competitive environment, if that makes sense to you.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Did you work with any of the other Centers, like Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] or Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], on some of their payloads?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gosh, we spent a lot of time in England and briefed the government and industry teams on how you could use the Shuttle. We spent a lot of time in France and Italy doing the same thing, and Germany, also. So it was mainly through the major countries in Europe. The objective was to make them aware and try to convince them that flying their payloads on Shuttle could be made easy and doable, and get them interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Was there any competition in the late seventies and early eighties with the Space Shuttle, in terms of deploying payloads, that you felt you were competing against?

[User] We didn’t have the sense. Of course, the expendable launch vehicles were still around, and they were doing stuff at the time, so I’m sure they felt we were trying to inject ourselves on their turf. [Laughs] But we were mainly just interested in making the Shuttle Program do what it’s supposed to do. Of course, we weren’t in the business of making money, and so from that point of view we didn’t sense the competitive environment, if that makes sense to you.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Did you work with any of the other Centers, like Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] or Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], on some of their payloads?

[User] Sure. Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] Did you work with Ames, for instance, on the animal enclosure experiments, and how did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t have the sense. Of course, the expendable launch vehicles were still around, and they were doing stuff at the time, so I’m sure they felt we were trying to inject ourselves on their turf. [Laughs] But we were mainly just interested in making the Shuttle Program do what it’s supposed to do. Of course, we weren’t in the business of making money, and so from that point of view we didn’t sense the competitive environment, if that makes sense to you.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Did you work with any of the other Centers, like Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland] or Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California], on some of their payloads?

[User] Sure. Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] Did you work with Ames, for instance, on the animal enclosure experiments, and how did that work?

[User] Well, the biggest interface, of course, was with Goddard on the Hubble Space Telescope, and we had a lot of interfaces with Huntsville on some of the satellite hardware they were doing down there. My interface with the Ames folks was very small in terms of the payloads they were building, because they basically interfaced, as I recall, through the Life Sciences guys, mostly, and so they would bring the stuff to the Shuttle Program. So it was mainly Goddard and Marshall.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Hubble Space Telescope. What were you interfacing at that point? The space telescope it was supposed to launch, of course, in ’86, but it didn’t end up launching because of the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. But what was your involvement with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] Did you work with Ames, for instance, on the animal enclosure experiments, and how did that work?

[User] Well, the biggest interface, of course, was with Goddard on the Hubble Space Telescope, and we had a lot of interfaces with Huntsville on some of the satellite hardware they were doing down there. My interface with the Ames folks was very small in terms of the payloads they were building, because they basically interfaced, as I recall, through the Life Sciences guys, mostly, and so they would bring the stuff to the Shuttle Program. So it was mainly Goddard and Marshall.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Hubble Space Telescope. What were you interfacing at that point? The space telescope it was supposed to launch, of course, in ’86, but it didn’t end up launching because of the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. But what was your involvement with that?

[User] Well, we were involved in the integrating it into the Shuttle, you know, and doing all of the coordination for what the loads would be, etc., etc., so that they could design the hardware properly.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with McDonnell Douglas on the Continuous Flow Electrophoresis experiments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the biggest interface, of course, was with Goddard on the Hubble Space Telescope, and we had a lot of interfaces with Huntsville on some of the satellite hardware they were doing down there. My interface with the Ames folks was very small in terms of the payloads they were building, because they basically interfaced, as I recall, through the Life Sciences guys, mostly, and so they would bring the stuff to the Shuttle Program. So it was mainly Goddard and Marshall.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Hubble Space Telescope. What were you interfacing at that point? The space telescope it was supposed to launch, of course, in ’86, but it didn’t end up launching because of the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident. But what was your involvement with that?

[User] Well, we were involved in the integrating it into the Shuttle, you know, and doing all of the coordination for what the loads would be, etc., etc., so that they could design the hardware properly.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with McDonnell Douglas on the Continuous Flow Electrophoresis experiments?

[User] I remember the name, but no, I wasn’t directly involved. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you work with the Saudis at all or Mexico with some of their payloads that were launched from the Space Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were involved in the integrating it into the Shuttle, you know, and doing all of the coordination for what the loads would be, etc., etc., so that they could design the hardware properly.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with McDonnell Douglas on the Continuous Flow Electrophoresis experiments?

[User] I remember the name, but no, I wasn’t directly involved. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you work with the Saudis at all or Mexico with some of their payloads that were launched from the Space Shuttle?

[User] Yes. When that was done, I was at a higher level, and so the direct interface was through the Payloads Integration Manager. So I did meet some of those folks and have a chance to talk to them and stuff like that, but I wasn’t on the day-to-day interface with them.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the Payload Support Center in the control center. Can you tell us where that was located at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the name, but no, I wasn’t directly involved. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you work with the Saudis at all or Mexico with some of their payloads that were launched from the Space Shuttle?

[User] Yes. When that was done, I was at a higher level, and so the direct interface was through the Payloads Integration Manager. So I did meet some of those folks and have a chance to talk to them and stuff like that, but I wasn’t on the day-to-day interface with them.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the Payload Support Center in the control center. Can you tell us where that was located at the time?

[User] Well, let’s see. Gosh, I’d have to almost go over there. It was the main control center. It was around the corner on the second floor, and it was a fairly small room that was allocated for payloads on the—which side of the building would that be? Let’s see; I’d have to almost get my map out, but it was located close to the control center, the main control room, but not adjacent to it. I mean, you had to come out of the Payload Control Center and go walk around the hall to get to the main control room.

[Assistant] How many people normally worked in that center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When that was done, I was at a higher level, and so the direct interface was through the Payloads Integration Manager. So I did meet some of those folks and have a chance to talk to them and stuff like that, but I wasn’t on the day-to-day interface with them.

[Assistant] You had mentioned the Payload Support Center in the control center. Can you tell us where that was located at the time?

[User] Well, let’s see. Gosh, I’d have to almost go over there. It was the main control center. It was around the corner on the second floor, and it was a fairly small room that was allocated for payloads on the—which side of the building would that be? Let’s see; I’d have to almost get my map out, but it was located close to the control center, the main control room, but not adjacent to it. I mean, you had to come out of the Payload Control Center and go walk around the hall to get to the main control room.

[Assistant] How many people normally worked in that center?

[User] It depended. It would depend on the mission, because on several missions, we would have multiple payloads on a given mission. So it would not be unusual to see fifteen or twenty folks in there, plus we had a little, small room for the non-involved people, like the managers from those different organizations had a little room they could sit in to watch what we were all doing down there in the Payload Control Room. I would bet it would hold ten or twelve folks, maybe. So it has that order of magnitude. We would have the guys from the PAM Project and then the satellite that was riding on top of it would have folks in there. Then we’d have our people in there and so it would be of that order of magnitude.

[Assistant] Were you operating twenty-four hours a day, or were you just operating when the payload was ready to deploy and then after the deployment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let’s see. Gosh, I’d have to almost go over there. It was the main control center. It was around the corner on the second floor, and it was a fairly small room that was allocated for payloads on the—which side of the building would that be? Let’s see; I’d have to almost get my map out, but it was located close to the control center, the main control room, but not adjacent to it. I mean, you had to come out of the Payload Control Center and go walk around the hall to get to the main control room.

[Assistant] How many people normally worked in that center?

[User] It depended. It would depend on the mission, because on several missions, we would have multiple payloads on a given mission. So it would not be unusual to see fifteen or twenty folks in there, plus we had a little, small room for the non-involved people, like the managers from those different organizations had a little room they could sit in to watch what we were all doing down there in the Payload Control Room. I would bet it would hold ten or twelve folks, maybe. So it has that order of magnitude. We would have the guys from the PAM Project and then the satellite that was riding on top of it would have folks in there. Then we’d have our people in there and so it would be of that order of magnitude.

[Assistant] Were you operating twenty-four hours a day, or were you just operating when the payload was ready to deploy and then after the deployment?

[User] Primarily just as you stated it; it wasn’t necessarily twenty-four hours a day, although you always had to have somebody available in case something happened. So there would be some people there twenty-four hours a day, but the main teams would be there when the operation was occurring.

[Assistant] You mentioned you provided support. What does that entail for the payload, with interacting with the Flight Controllers and the crew? What did that process entail for your folks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It depended. It would depend on the mission, because on several missions, we would have multiple payloads on a given mission. So it would not be unusual to see fifteen or twenty folks in there, plus we had a little, small room for the non-involved people, like the managers from those different organizations had a little room they could sit in to watch what we were all doing down there in the Payload Control Room. I would bet it would hold ten or twelve folks, maybe. So it has that order of magnitude. We would have the guys from the PAM Project and then the satellite that was riding on top of it would have folks in there. Then we’d have our people in there and so it would be of that order of magnitude.

[Assistant] Were you operating twenty-four hours a day, or were you just operating when the payload was ready to deploy and then after the deployment?

[User] Primarily just as you stated it; it wasn’t necessarily twenty-four hours a day, although you always had to have somebody available in case something happened. So there would be some people there twenty-four hours a day, but the main teams would be there when the operation was occurring.

[Assistant] You mentioned you provided support. What does that entail for the payload, with interacting with the Flight Controllers and the crew? What did that process entail for your folks?

[User] Well, the Payload Control Officer who is in the main control room, we would have communications with them from the different consoles in the Payload Control Room, and so he could inquire to payload 1 or payload 2 or payload 3, or all of them if he needed to, and ask them for data or information or support or whatever. So I’m not sure that answered your question; but it was all through the Payload Officer who’s in the main control room.

[Assistant] I was curious; I just have some general questions for you. What was it like when the female astronauts came on board in ’78? Did you notice a change at all working at JSC with more professional women coming on board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Primarily just as you stated it; it wasn’t necessarily twenty-four hours a day, although you always had to have somebody available in case something happened. So there would be some people there twenty-four hours a day, but the main teams would be there when the operation was occurring.

[Assistant] You mentioned you provided support. What does that entail for the payload, with interacting with the Flight Controllers and the crew? What did that process entail for your folks?

[User] Well, the Payload Control Officer who is in the main control room, we would have communications with them from the different consoles in the Payload Control Room, and so he could inquire to payload 1 or payload 2 or payload 3, or all of them if he needed to, and ask them for data or information or support or whatever. So I’m not sure that answered your question; but it was all through the Payload Officer who’s in the main control room.

[Assistant] I was curious; I just have some general questions for you. What was it like when the female astronauts came on board in ’78? Did you notice a change at all working at JSC with more professional women coming on board?

[User] Not really. They were just normal, competent people, and so I didn’t really observe a big change. We had a lot of female engineers at the time, so that environment was normal. I mean, it was just one of those things that was time to happen, and it happened and yea verily.

[Assistant] The reason I asked is Mr. [James R.] Jaax had told us he attended some sort of workshop about working with women, so I was just curious if that had a larger impact on the Center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Payload Control Officer who is in the main control room, we would have communications with them from the different consoles in the Payload Control Room, and so he could inquire to payload 1 or payload 2 or payload 3, or all of them if he needed to, and ask them for data or information or support or whatever. So I’m not sure that answered your question; but it was all through the Payload Officer who’s in the main control room.

[Assistant] I was curious; I just have some general questions for you. What was it like when the female astronauts came on board in ’78? Did you notice a change at all working at JSC with more professional women coming on board?

[User] Not really. They were just normal, competent people, and so I didn’t really observe a big change. We had a lot of female engineers at the time, so that environment was normal. I mean, it was just one of those things that was time to happen, and it happened and yea verily.

[Assistant] The reason I asked is Mr. [James R.] Jaax had told us he attended some sort of workshop about working with women, so I was just curious if that had a larger impact on the Center.

[User] I don’t remember ever attending that workshop. Jim needed a lot of training. [Laughter]

[Assistant] When you became the Shuttle Program Manger, can you talk to us about your work with Headquarters, working with the Office of Manned Space Flight, and the Administrator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He obviously had already made up his mind.

[Assistant] Glad you agreed with him, huh?

[User] Yes. [Laughs]

[Assistant] The only other question that I had that I thought of was I’m wondering if you could tell us what the mood was like at the Center following the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident until return to flight.

[User] Well, I think I described a little bit what it was like after and then immediately after, and then my assessment was that within a fairly short period of time every single individual on that site was focused, got their brain and energy focused on getting us back to flight. So it was a huge unifying “Let’s fix it and get going” kind of an environment. We all got impatient with how long it was taking because of the hardware changes we had to make, but everybody understood why we had to do that. The team was more focused, because everybody just saw that [fixing the problem was] absolutely essential and threw in wherever they could to make sure we got it done and got it done safely.

[Assistant]
Well, I think that’s it.

Well, before we close, although you weren’t at NASA officially when [Space Shuttle]\n\n Columbia\n\n [STS-107] fell, how did that affect the operations that you were working on at the time? And then certainly personally, you had worked so long with that Shuttle Program and to watch\n\n Columbia\n\n be lost.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall there being a lot of competition. I think we populated the mission fairly early in the flow, and then we had to keep those investigators happy while they weren’t flying. They may have gotten opportunities on other missions to fly other experiments, or other aspects of other experiments, but I don’t recall any ongoing competition. It seems like we lost Triana fairly early in the planning process. After that it sort of settled down. I mean, after that there was really no motivation to fly. At least with Triana on board, it was the vice president’s pet project, and that would help to keep us in the flight queue, but after that went away, then it was the redheaded stepchild, nobody really had any particular interest in this one except for the scientists that were on board and the senators that those scientists liked to call up and complain about their poor treatment by NASA.\n\n Triana just launched recently, and it’s now on Station and sending pictures back. It’s now called DSCOVR [Deep Space Climate Observatory]. I saw a picture from it the other day. I hope Al Gore feels vindicated.

[Assistant] What I read is that he dreamed about it, or it came to him in a dream, or something?

[User] I don’t know if it was a dream or in the shower, but it was one of those moments. I think we all get inspiration at times like that.

[Assistant] Yes, we do. As far as the peer reviews, did you have any involvement in picking those?

[User] I don’t recall any involvement in that peer review activity. Those investigations that came to us were peer reviewed by the sponsoring organizations, however they prefer to do it, and I treated them all as full-fledged investigations.

[Assistant] One of the quotes I read in an article was that you said the 107 mission would be doing simulated Space Station science, and that was the purpose that you wanted to see happen as far as that flight. Can you talk about that? Maybe some of the things that they were doing as far as life science?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Theology.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was going to, I was working on an application for the Ohio Theological Seminary. And the question that just stopped me in my tracks was, what are your goals for this, for this great adventure? And I, I realized that up until that point, I was hoping that the theological training of the seminary would kind of take my hand and show me what it was that I should be thinking about and that I wouldn't have to worry anymore, that everything would be all in place, and all I had to do was just follow those footsteps and there they are.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I quickly realized that I had some serious thinking to do.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I quickly realized that I had some serious thinking to do.

[Assistant] Where had you grown up?

[User] In Detroit.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Urban, uh, Royal Oak, Michigan, which is just north of Detroit.

[Assistant] Went to high school there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Detroit.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Urban, uh, Royal Oak, Michigan, which is just north of Detroit.

[Assistant] Went to high school there?

[User] Yes, Clarence M. Kimball High School in Royal Oak. And our ties with Detroit were pretty solid. My, my parents had emigrated when they were quite young from the northern peninsula, upper peninsula of Michigan. And they came down to settle, I think during the pre-World War I era. They were both quite young when they came down, and they got married and grew up in Detroit. And all the years that I lived in Michigan, I attended church in Detroit. So it was a very, uh, central part of my life.

[Assistant] Right. When did you decide to go on to college? And what was your goal in going or why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Urban, uh, Royal Oak, Michigan, which is just north of Detroit.

[Assistant] Went to high school there?

[User] Yes, Clarence M. Kimball High School in Royal Oak. And our ties with Detroit were pretty solid. My, my parents had emigrated when they were quite young from the northern peninsula, upper peninsula of Michigan. And they came down to settle, I think during the pre-World War I era. They were both quite young when they came down, and they got married and grew up in Detroit. And all the years that I lived in Michigan, I attended church in Detroit. So it was a very, uh, central part of my life.

[Assistant] Right. When did you decide to go on to college? And what was your goal in going or why?

[User] My, my earliest feeling about life goals was at Central Methodist Church in Detroit, and I came up with the goal of becoming a minister in the church. I really wanted to emulate our great preacher, who was a very gifted speaker and a great leader of Methodists in the city. And I thought that that was a worthwhile goal. And so when the opportunity came to select a college, I chose Ohio Wesleyan. They gave me a good scholarship package, and everything was going along swimmingly until that famous day in December of 1964, when I had to come up with a detailed roadmap for the rest of my life, and I found I couldn't do it.

[Assistant] Now, the degree you received then was a bachelor's in theology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would have received the Bachelor of Arts in philosophy.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] With theology as the minor. But I eventually finished my studies at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which, uh, and it had nothing to do with theology at that point. It was area studies in South Asia studies.

[Assistant] That was after the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With theology as the minor. But I eventually finished my studies at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which, uh, and it had nothing to do with theology at that point. It was area studies in South Asia studies.

[Assistant] That was after the Peace Corps?

[User] After the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] But had you going on to graduate school, the track then would have been to become a minister.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which, uh, and it had nothing to do with theology at that point. It was area studies in South Asia studies.

[Assistant] That was after the Peace Corps?

[User] After the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] But had you going on to graduate school, the track then would have been to become a minister.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, uh, up to that point, you're finishing college. Had you done any travel in the United States? Outside the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After the Peace Corps. Yeah.

[Assistant] But had you going on to graduate school, the track then would have been to become a minister.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, uh, up to that point, you're finishing college. Had you done any travel in the United States? Outside the United States?

[User] The farthest that I had traveled was to California.

[Assistant] Had you done any special projects during the summers or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, uh, up to that point, you're finishing college. Had you done any travel in the United States? Outside the United States?

[User] The farthest that I had traveled was to California.

[Assistant] Had you done any special projects during the summers or?

[User] I did spend a summer at Union College in Schenectady, New York. That was in conjunction with a church program that I had grown up with. I think it started back in, uh, in the primary grades. It was instead of the traditional Sunday School curriculum, we had adopted something that Union College was promoting as the Character Research Project. And that summer, I believe it was '62. I spent, no, it was summer of '63, spent at Union College as a staff assistant helping to plan a national parents and families conference on family values and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Up to that point, September of '65.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The farthest that I had traveled was to California.

[Assistant] Had you done any special projects during the summers or?

[User] I did spend a summer at Union College in Schenectady, New York. That was in conjunction with a church program that I had grown up with. I think it started back in, uh, in the primary grades. It was instead of the traditional Sunday School curriculum, we had adopted something that Union College was promoting as the Character Research Project. And that summer, I believe it was '62. I spent, no, it was summer of '63, spent at Union College as a staff assistant helping to plan a national parents and families conference on family values and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Up to that point, September of '65.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What was your experience with chickens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He joined together with a group of his friends during World War II and tried to make a stand. They had pulled their resources and decided we need to do something to show people that there's a different way. A better way.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So the first option that they investigated was buying land in Montana. And when they drove all the way out there and found out that the land that they had selected was right next to a missile range and said, well, this is not what we had in mind. So they finally selected a rather large parcel north of Detroit in what is now Madison Heights.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And they helped each other build their homes. They had a big tractor. I remember the big John Deere tractor and farm, plowing and growing corn and wheat. It was great. And there was a huge barn where we kept pigs.

[Assistant] This is during your childhood?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the first option that they investigated was buying land in Montana. And when they drove all the way out there and found out that the land that they had selected was right next to a missile range and said, well, this is not what we had in mind. So they finally selected a rather large parcel north of Detroit in what is now Madison Heights.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And they helped each other build their homes. They had a big tractor. I remember the big John Deere tractor and farm, plowing and growing corn and wheat. It was great. And there was a huge barn where we kept pigs.

[Assistant] This is during your childhood?

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had the chicken coop right up near our house. And we had a huge fence around it, and the chickens managed to fly way up there to the top. So I did have a little bit of, you know, early childhood memories associated with it. But all the training that I got for the job was from the Peace Corps itself.

[Assistant] All right. Let's go jump ahead then. You, had you, did you consciously decide not to apply to graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had the chicken coop right up near our house. And we had a huge fence around it, and the chickens managed to fly way up there to the top. So I did have a little bit of, you know, early childhood memories associated with it. But all the training that I got for the job was from the Peace Corps itself.

[Assistant] All right. Let's go jump ahead then. You, had you, did you consciously decide not to apply to graduate school?

[User] Yes. My, my decision was, the only way I can really make a decision that makes sense to me is to get more experience.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that was what I thought was severely lacking in my outlook at that time.

[Assistant] How'd you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, I wasn't too far away from Ann Arbor when he made that announcement.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, you know, the, uh, the news was quite thorough in that. And, and I think that was a big factor in his election.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I think he carried the state of Michigan largely because of that. But deciding to join the Peace Corps was something that I always wanted to do. And suddenly it seemed like the only logical thing to do at that point in my life. So I left school middle of my senior year and went home and told my parents, you're off the hook for tuition. And I got two jobs working in veterinary hospitals, one five days a week, one on weekends, and it was kind of like, buckle down time for me, saving my money and making things happen that were going to be. I remember I put myself on a diet of tiger milk, doing calisthenics, you know.

[Assistant] Had you applied to the Peace Corps at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think he carried the state of Michigan largely because of that. But deciding to join the Peace Corps was something that I always wanted to do. And suddenly it seemed like the only logical thing to do at that point in my life. So I left school middle of my senior year and went home and told my parents, you're off the hook for tuition. And I got two jobs working in veterinary hospitals, one five days a week, one on weekends, and it was kind of like, buckle down time for me, saving my money and making things happen that were going to be. I remember I put myself on a diet of tiger milk, doing calisthenics, you know.

[Assistant] Had you applied to the Peace Corps at this point?

[User] Yes. I came home specifically to apply for Peace Corps. And I saw an announcement in the paper that said there's going to be a Peace Corps exam taken tomorrow morning at the federal building in downtown Detroit. So I showed up at the door and they said, well, have you filled out your application yet? I said, what application? They said, well, everybody in here has already filled out their application, but if you're here, you want to take the test, go ahead, take the test. But you're going to have to have that application in the mail by 5:00 tomorrow.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] All right. So as it turned out, I took the test, filled out the application, and the only way I got it in the mail by 5:00 was I worked all night on that thing.

[Assistant] It was long.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was huge.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It must have been, uh, oh, I mean I remember a huge packet.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] 20 or 30 pages.

[Assistant] Well, you had a, there were six recommendations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It must have been, uh, oh, I mean I remember a huge packet.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] 20 or 30 pages.

[Assistant] Well, you had a, there were six recommendations.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you recall the kinds of things you put in the application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And working with, uh, well, the fact that we were, we were down in the city of Detroit. And one of the things we had to do was survey people's attitudes about these religious platitudes we all talk about, and finding out does it really make a difference in your life?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we did that survey and we worked hard on it for, you know, going out and interviewing people. I went out in Hamtramck, which is a Polish American section of Detroit.

[Assistant] Yes. yes.

[User] And the people were very cooperative and willing to talk, which I thought was quite an eye-opener for me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, in the application, did you include the agricultural background that you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we did that survey and we worked hard on it for, you know, going out and interviewing people. I went out in Hamtramck, which is a Polish American section of Detroit.

[Assistant] Yes. yes.

[User] And the people were very cooperative and willing to talk, which I thought was quite an eye-opener for me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, in the application, did you include the agricultural background that you had?

[User] You know, I think at that time I had no idea what kind of program I was looking for, so I wouldn't have mentioned that.

[Assistant] And did you recall putting down a preference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, my number one preference was China.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] My number two preference was, uh, I may have had India in the top three.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'm not sure. And I was kind of disappointed when it wasn't China. At that point I really.

[Assistant] Had you studied foreign language at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My number two preference was, uh, I may have had India in the top three.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'm not sure. And I was kind of disappointed when it wasn't China. At that point I really.

[Assistant] Had you studied foreign language at all?

[User] I had studied Spanish in high school, French in college.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of proficiency or just study?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure. And I was kind of disappointed when it wasn't China. At that point I really.

[Assistant] Had you studied foreign language at all?

[User] I had studied Spanish in high school, French in college.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of proficiency or just study?

[User] I did fairly well. I didn't, I never considered it as a major subject, but I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you were, you took the exam, you applied. You were preparing yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had studied Spanish in high school, French in college.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of proficiency or just study?

[User] I did fairly well. I didn't, I never considered it as a major subject, but I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you were, you took the exam, you applied. You were preparing yourself.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You had your own program of preparation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did fairly well. I didn't, I never considered it as a major subject, but I enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you were, you took the exam, you applied. You were preparing yourself.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You had your own program of preparation?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then the invitation came.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Then the invitation came.

[User] Yes, it came in about late May, about the 29th of May.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And again, it was, we were to respond and be in Annapolis, Maryland, St. John's College, by June 29th.

[Assistant] Okay. So what was your response, reaction, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And again, it was, we were to respond and be in Annapolis, Maryland, St. John's College, by June 29th.

[Assistant] Okay. So what was your response, reaction, I mean?

[User] It was great.

[Assistant] No hesitation?

[User] Not at all. This, this is going to happen. This is great. You know, and everybody just kind of went along and I said, all right, go for it, you know?

[Assistant] How about your peers, your friends think? Had any joined or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. This, this is going to happen. This is great. You know, and everybody just kind of went along and I said, all right, go for it, you know?

[Assistant] How about your peers, your friends think? Had any joined or?

[User] You know, I think a lot of them shook their heads and said, oh, he's gone off the deep end finally, you know, we all knew he would someday. And I think most disbelief that that I recall my friends mentioning to me was the fact that I was going to be completely out of touch for two years. Like in a hole somewhere.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they, they couldn't understand why anybody would do that.

[Assistant] So that was the impression you had. I mean, you were really going pretty far out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I think a lot of them shook their heads and said, oh, he's gone off the deep end finally, you know, we all knew he would someday. And I think most disbelief that that I recall my friends mentioning to me was the fact that I was going to be completely out of touch for two years. Like in a hole somewhere.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they, they couldn't understand why anybody would do that.

[Assistant] So that was the impression you had. I mean, you were really going pretty far out.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember your own personal reaction to Kennedy's assassination? Because that had happened the year before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they, they couldn't understand why anybody would do that.

[Assistant] So that was the impression you had. I mean, you were really going pretty far out.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember your own personal reaction to Kennedy's assassination? Because that had happened the year before.

[User] It did. Yeah. It was huge. It was, it was one of those things that, you know, my, my feeling was here's a man in the prime of his life cut down. And he, uh, he left a legacy that could possibly make a huge difference in the lives of billions of people. And now he can't do it anymore.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Reported to St. John's?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember your own personal reaction to Kennedy's assassination? Because that had happened the year before.

[User] It did. Yeah. It was huge. It was, it was one of those things that, you know, my, my feeling was here's a man in the prime of his life cut down. And he, uh, he left a legacy that could possibly make a huge difference in the lives of billions of people. And now he can't do it anymore.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Reported to St. John's?

[User] Yes. Still remember the plane flight landing at Washington National Airport in a prop driven airplane and a very kind of a cloudy day and thinking, well, this is where, where it starts. St. John's College is quite a historic place. It's one of the oldest colleges in the United States. And Francis Scott Key was one of their graduates.

[Assistant] And it's where, one of the places that developed the Great Books.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, that was fascinating to me. As it turned out, our training program was designed around their, their kind of colloquial seminar structure of class instruction. There was never to be a lecturer as such. We were to come prepared to debate the material, not just absorb it. And I remember making quite a number of evaluative type comments during those discussions and coming to the conclusion that, hey, you know, this is, this really, this really is great.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, we had 100 people that started out in that program.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think only seven did not make it. And those seven were basically self deselected.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we had 100 people that started out in that program.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think only seven did not make it. And those seven were basically self deselected.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Yeah.

[User] They decided for themselves that this was something.

[Assistant] What was your impression of the others in the program? I mean, you must have made some comparison or measure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a terrific assortment of people. They are all, let's see. We had one pair of grandmother, grandfather, grandmother from Indiana.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were Harry and Eleanor Cheek. They just reveled in the energy of the place. And they, they. A lot of us thought, well, gee, you know, they're probably going to wash out. But they made it, they made it all the way through. They stuck it out. And it turned out that they continued the role of elder statesman for the rest of our group during the time of their service.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were in a good central location, so.

[Assistant] So how old were you when you went in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were in a good central location, so.

[Assistant] So how old were you when you went in?

[User] Let's see. I would have been 21.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. What were the components of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They put up a protest and successfully lobbied for a change halfway through the program so that they could spend their time with their yoga instructor instead of all of this other crap, you know. Let me tell you, there was something about that training program though, that I loved and made a big difference to me. I remember the first day going down to the gym and walking up to the parallel bars. And I had never really messed around with parallel bars at all ever in my life. But I thought, there's something that you're supposed to be able to do if you reach, if you sit down here on the ground and you reach up here, you're supposed to be able to chin yourself and pull your feet up over the top.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I thought, this is impossible. I tried it. I could not do it, you know? And I thought I was a pretty good shape. And I had been an athlete in college, played football, screwed up my knee.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I played basketball on the junior varsity. I could not do that. But on the last day of the program, I could. It was, it was like a piece of cake. It was like, yeah, there it goes. Now with that, on the final, on the final day of the calisthenics, I remember doing 75 pushups, 150 sit ups. I think, you know, hey, I'm ready. Send me in, coach. So it was, it was just. There's something very poetic about that kind of discipline that paid off.

[Assistant] But in a sense, it was an individual struggle. I mean, it wasn't like you had to do it to keep up with the group, but it was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I thought, this is impossible. I tried it. I could not do it, you know? And I thought I was a pretty good shape. And I had been an athlete in college, played football, screwed up my knee.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I played basketball on the junior varsity. I could not do that. But on the last day of the program, I could. It was, it was like a piece of cake. It was like, yeah, there it goes. Now with that, on the final, on the final day of the calisthenics, I remember doing 75 pushups, 150 sit ups. I think, you know, hey, I'm ready. Send me in, coach. So it was, it was just. There's something very poetic about that kind of discipline that paid off.

[Assistant] But in a sense, it was an individual struggle. I mean, it wasn't like you had to do it to keep up with the group, but it was.

[User] No, it was really self-imposed. Yeah. And that that came through the training.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after the training program, they were part of the VISTA program, which was brand new that year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so they worked for a year following our training program in the United States.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I remember there was a Mr. Gupta who was a great, I guess a quite a powerful civil servant in India before he agreed to do this. And, uh, there was a, I think he was also the guy who did the yoga instruction for a group. It turned out to be a group of about eight or ten guys and a couple of ladies, too, that did that. But for the most part, the rest of us, uh, stuck to the regimen.

[Assistant] Was there any indication that you had to learn Hindi in order to qualify to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they worked for a year following our training program in the United States.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I remember there was a Mr. Gupta who was a great, I guess a quite a powerful civil servant in India before he agreed to do this. And, uh, there was a, I think he was also the guy who did the yoga instruction for a group. It turned out to be a group of about eight or ten guys and a couple of ladies, too, that did that. But for the most part, the rest of us, uh, stuck to the regimen.

[Assistant] Was there any indication that you had to learn Hindi in order to qualify to?

[User] Yeah, there was a very public expectation that we would all show significant progress in learning the language, because after all, this was the whole idea of the thing was to relate to people on the, on their own level, and they didn't want anybody going in there with the attitude that you are going to impose your values or your system on anybody. And the best indicator that you weren't going to do that was if you really had good language skills.

[Assistant] Was it expected that you would be functioning in the work that you were doing in Hindi or Indian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was a very public expectation that we would all show significant progress in learning the language, because after all, this was the whole idea of the thing was to relate to people on the, on their own level, and they didn't want anybody going in there with the attitude that you are going to impose your values or your system on anybody. And the best indicator that you weren't going to do that was if you really had good language skills.

[Assistant] Was it expected that you would be functioning in the work that you were doing in Hindi or Indian?

[User] Yeah, we all had, we all had that, that idea that if we wanted to be effective people, we would have to do this.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We'd have to have that ability. And as it turned out, you know, that was largely correct.

[Assistant] Were you tested on language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Standard language test. And I think at the end of the program, most of us passed with flying colors, you know, but I got a two minus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Highest is four.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I was very proud of the fact by the end of the six month period in country, I got a two plus. So I felt that I was making real progress in that area.

[Assistant] So there was the language, there was the phys ed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There were.

[User] The seminars.

[Assistant] American studies?

[User] American studies, yes.

[Assistant] And the seminars, did they include studies about India and culture?