[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, our initial orientation took place in Miami, and that was where they started a vaccination program and gave us some initial orientation. But the bulk of the orientation and training took place in country, in Bogota. After a very short period of time in a hotel, we were assigned to live with a host family who was not allowed to speak any English to us. And we started this immersion Spanish training very quickly. There wasn't, because we, you know, this was a brand new program and it turned out to be a fairly controversial program.

[Assistant] The in-country training was new?

[User] Yeah, there was no training to, because we were all basically athletes. And the adult rehabilitation considered consisted of running an athletic program within my little various district prisons around the country. And so I'm not sure what playing basketball and volleyball had to do with rehabilitating someone who was in jail. But that was the job that I had accepted, without really understanding a lot about it. But I knew generally what it was going to be, and I said, OK, if that's what the job is, I'll do it. And so after my language training, did you want to hear some more about the language training?

[Assistant] Well, was there? You might just briefly talk about that, but also were there other kinds of classes that you had, you know, cultural or historic or history or?

[User] No, what training we got in the culture and history was done in the context of the Spanish conversation. All of the training, none of it was textbook. All of it was oral and it was extremely effective because from day one, it was conducted in Spanish. The teachers were very, of course, they were native speaking Colombians and they were very personable. And I feel sure that they had had some teaching experience because they seemed to be following a plan. They just weren't in a room with us shooting the breeze. They had ideas in mind of what they wanted to do with the language training.

[Assistant] And how long did that training last?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was no training to, because we were all basically athletes. And the adult rehabilitation considered consisted of running an athletic program within my little various district prisons around the country. And so I'm not sure what playing basketball and volleyball had to do with rehabilitating someone who was in jail. But that was the job that I had accepted, without really understanding a lot about it. But I knew generally what it was going to be, and I said, OK, if that's what the job is, I'll do it. And so after my language training, did you want to hear some more about the language training?

[Assistant] Well, was there? You might just briefly talk about that, but also were there other kinds of classes that you had, you know, cultural or historic or history or?

[User] No, what training we got in the culture and history was done in the context of the Spanish conversation. All of the training, none of it was textbook. All of it was oral and it was extremely effective because from day one, it was conducted in Spanish. The teachers were very, of course, they were native speaking Colombians and they were very personable. And I feel sure that they had had some teaching experience because they seemed to be following a plan. They just weren't in a room with us shooting the breeze. They had ideas in mind of what they wanted to do with the language training.

[Assistant] And how long did that training last?

[User] Six weeks. Six weeks and living with the host family and having two meals a day with them.

[Assistant] And were you living with the host family by yourself or were there other Peace Corps volunteers with you in that same home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Six weeks. Six weeks and living with the host family and having two meals a day with them.

[Assistant] And were you living with the host family by yourself or were there other Peace Corps volunteers with you in that same home?

[User] Just me.

[Assistant] Just you.

[User] Just me and the family.

[Assistant] And how was that? How did you develop any kind of a relationship with them that was meaningful to you in terms of person to person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just me.

[Assistant] Just you.

[User] Just me and the family.

[Assistant] And how was that? How did you develop any kind of a relationship with them that was meaningful to you in terms of person to person?

[User] Well, because of my limited language skills, I wasn't able to carry on a lot of profound discussions because I was starting from square one, not knowing much Spanish at all when I went to, when I showed up in country. But so we had some good discussions around the dinner table. But I don't think we really had any kind of connection on a personal level where we would, you know, try to stay in touch or anything like that. I think for them, it was an opportunity to make some extra money and probably get a few laughs at the volunteers at the gringo's attempt to say the right thing in Spanish and say an absolutely silly thing, which I know happened more than once.

[Assistant] So at the end of the six weeks then, did you have any say in your next assignment or were you just told you're going to go to Huila and worked there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just me and the family.

[Assistant] And how was that? How did you develop any kind of a relationship with them that was meaningful to you in terms of person to person?

[User] Well, because of my limited language skills, I wasn't able to carry on a lot of profound discussions because I was starting from square one, not knowing much Spanish at all when I went to, when I showed up in country. But so we had some good discussions around the dinner table. But I don't think we really had any kind of connection on a personal level where we would, you know, try to stay in touch or anything like that. I think for them, it was an opportunity to make some extra money and probably get a few laughs at the volunteers at the gringo's attempt to say the right thing in Spanish and say an absolutely silly thing, which I know happened more than once.

[Assistant] So at the end of the six weeks then, did you have any say in your next assignment or were you just told you're going to go to Huila and worked there?

[User] I went to Huila and started work, but I know that there was someone from the Peace Corps Colombia that accompanied me to to the city and introduced me to the warden of the prison. And we worked out when I was supposed to show up and my starting date for showing up. And I also stayed with a family in Neiva, and someone had to make those arrangements because I didn't make those arrangements. There were, Peace Corps made those things.

[Assistant] You just landed there as you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, because of my limited language skills, I wasn't able to carry on a lot of profound discussions because I was starting from square one, not knowing much Spanish at all when I went to, when I showed up in country. But so we had some good discussions around the dinner table. But I don't think we really had any kind of connection on a personal level where we would, you know, try to stay in touch or anything like that. I think for them, it was an opportunity to make some extra money and probably get a few laughs at the volunteers at the gringo's attempt to say the right thing in Spanish and say an absolutely silly thing, which I know happened more than once.

[Assistant] So at the end of the six weeks then, did you have any say in your next assignment or were you just told you're going to go to Huila and worked there?

[User] I went to Huila and started work, but I know that there was someone from the Peace Corps Colombia that accompanied me to to the city and introduced me to the warden of the prison. And we worked out when I was supposed to show up and my starting date for showing up. And I also stayed with a family in Neiva, and someone had to make those arrangements because I didn't make those arrangements. There were, Peace Corps made those things.

[Assistant] You just landed there as you were.

[User] That was a turnkey operation as far as I was concerned. I just, you know, just brought what little gear I had and came along to do my job.

[Assistant] So tell us about the job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think they'd been there about five or six months. But they were getting money, so they were in patio number three and they had decent food. But they were glad to see me and first, all the prisoners were glad to see me because it was a break from the routine of just being there in prison. One day we would play have a basketball game and the next day we would play a volleyball game. Volleyball was pretty new to them, which was OK because it was pretty new to me as well. But we had some okay games, but after an hour and a half, two hours of basketball or volleyball, that was my job for the day. It was over. So I was let out of the prison and the rest of the day I was on my own.

[Assistant] And so how did you fill your time?

[User] I read a lot of books. I bought some food and put it in the kitchen with my family. Preparing meals was not part of the deal, so I had to prepare my own meals or go out to a restaurant to eat. And there were some other Peace Corps volunteers in town, and I became friendly with them. We would socialize, and then it was almost an every night routine to go to the air-conditioned movie theater and watch the movie, even if it was playing the same film four or five nights in a row. Just to be in the air conditioning, we would go to the movies.

[Assistant] This is you and the other Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Me and the other Peace Corps volunteers. And then we had some parties where adult beverages were served.

[Assistant] And of course, you were over 21. So this wasn't a problem.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I read a lot of books. I bought some food and put it in the kitchen with my family. Preparing meals was not part of the deal, so I had to prepare my own meals or go out to a restaurant to eat. And there were some other Peace Corps volunteers in town, and I became friendly with them. We would socialize, and then it was almost an every night routine to go to the air-conditioned movie theater and watch the movie, even if it was playing the same film four or five nights in a row. Just to be in the air conditioning, we would go to the movies.

[Assistant] This is you and the other Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Me and the other Peace Corps volunteers. And then we had some parties where adult beverages were served.

[Assistant] And of course, you were over 21. So this wasn't a problem.

[User] I was over 21. But one of the strange things about being in Colombia was that this was right after the United States CIA involvement in Chile, and I felt an almost palpable distrust of me as an American, especially on the part of young people. I didn't feel welcome. I felt sure that most Colombians thought I was CIA.

[Assistant] Did any of them say that to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Me and the other Peace Corps volunteers. And then we had some parties where adult beverages were served.

[Assistant] And of course, you were over 21. So this wasn't a problem.

[User] I was over 21. But one of the strange things about being in Colombia was that this was right after the United States CIA involvement in Chile, and I felt an almost palpable distrust of me as an American, especially on the part of young people. I didn't feel welcome. I felt sure that most Colombians thought I was CIA.

[Assistant] Did any of them say that to you?

[User] No. But the CIA was very much in the news. Chile was very much in the news. And it's just discomforting to walk down the sidewalk and pass a little old lady, and she makes the sign of the cross when she passes you. So you just get the idea that maybe this gringo is not particularly welcome in Colombia.

[Assistant] And you were a very tall gringo. There was nowhere you could hide.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was over 21. But one of the strange things about being in Colombia was that this was right after the United States CIA involvement in Chile, and I felt an almost palpable distrust of me as an American, especially on the part of young people. I didn't feel welcome. I felt sure that most Colombians thought I was CIA.

[Assistant] Did any of them say that to you?

[User] No. But the CIA was very much in the news. Chile was very much in the news. And it's just discomforting to walk down the sidewalk and pass a little old lady, and she makes the sign of the cross when she passes you. So you just get the idea that maybe this gringo is not particularly welcome in Colombia.

[Assistant] And you were a very tall gringo. There was nowhere you could hide.

[User] No, I was not exactly going to blend in at six foot nine with, in those days, blond hair and blue eyes. I was clearly a gringo. And so, you know, but it was OK that, you know, I mean, there wasn't anybody that. I never felt threatened physically or anything, but I just didn't feel any warm fuzzies from the people. But I also, you know, was getting some vibes from Peace Corps administration that the program was not popular. That there were people in the Colombian government who did not like having gringos in the prisons because not only criminals were in prisons, but mentally ill people were there and political prisoners. So it was, uh, I felt like the ship was sinking on that program. I just didn't feel that it was going to continue. And so coupled with the fact that I didn't feel that the host country really wanted me there, I just told the country director that I wanted to leave and I wanted to quit.

[Assistant] And what reasons did you give him? Those reasons specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was the reasons of the program that I thought was failing and was unpopular. And I just got that, you know, that vibe was very strong. I don't think I really talked with him about the, you know, the fact of the people not being that friendly or welcoming. I did have an issue at that time of my mother's health, and that was a thought in my mind that I would, you know, I would tell him that. And it was true that, you know, she was not in very good health and that was a concern of mine. And I just with both of these things, the program on shaky ground and her health, I thought it was a good idea for me to leave. Well, he was a very nice guy.

[Assistant] Who was that director, do you remember?

[User] I think his name was Manny Rodriguez. I think it was Manuel. I think it was Rodriguez. Of course, he was an American, Peace Corps country director. But he was very wise in the fact that he said, well, you know, and looking at your folder and your record, you have had an excellent you have been an excellent volunteer in VISTA and what you've done here has been completely satisfactory. Why don't you go back to Washington, D.C., to the Peace Corps headquarters and look for another job in the Peace Corps? I said that sounds like a plan to me. I will do it. And that's what I did.

[Assistant] So you were then, you went into Peace Corps in February. You left in September, you said. And so that's what about eight months, nine months, in the country?

[User] It was about seven, seven or eight months, yes.

[Assistant] Where you were in your site anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think his name was Manny Rodriguez. I think it was Manuel. I think it was Rodriguez. Of course, he was an American, Peace Corps country director. But he was very wise in the fact that he said, well, you know, and looking at your folder and your record, you have had an excellent you have been an excellent volunteer in VISTA and what you've done here has been completely satisfactory. Why don't you go back to Washington, D.C., to the Peace Corps headquarters and look for another job in the Peace Corps? I said that sounds like a plan to me. I will do it. And that's what I did.

[Assistant] So you were then, you went into Peace Corps in February. You left in September, you said. And so that's what about eight months, nine months, in the country?

[User] It was about seven, seven or eight months, yes.

[Assistant] Where you were in your site anyway.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And so were there some positive things that you took from that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about seven, seven or eight months, yes.

[Assistant] Where you were in your site anyway.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And so were there some positive things that you took from that experience?

[User] I really enjoyed the. I really enjoyed speaking Spanish, talking with people, did some touring around to visit other volunteers and see what their jobs were. The country was absolutely beautiful. And some of the cultural attractions in Bogota that we saw while we were there, going to the Museo de Oro, the Gold Museum, and some of the other attractions. I'm sure we went to some other museums and parks, which Bogota had a plentiful supply, and very good restaurants. Neiva not so much. It was a much smaller town, but Bogota, even in those days, was a very, very large town. And but I really enjoyed my time interacting with the Spanish language instructors. They were more well-educated people and they were very, very funny. They liked Americans, they enjoyed their jobs. But I just, you know, I don't have a lot of super positive memories of being in Colombia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Before we move to your next assignment, are there any individuals, either Peace Corps volunteers or Colombians, with whom you have had contact consequent to your life in Colombia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] And so were there some positive things that you took from that experience?

[User] I really enjoyed the. I really enjoyed speaking Spanish, talking with people, did some touring around to visit other volunteers and see what their jobs were. The country was absolutely beautiful. And some of the cultural attractions in Bogota that we saw while we were there, going to the Museo de Oro, the Gold Museum, and some of the other attractions. I'm sure we went to some other museums and parks, which Bogota had a plentiful supply, and very good restaurants. Neiva not so much. It was a much smaller town, but Bogota, even in those days, was a very, very large town. And but I really enjoyed my time interacting with the Spanish language instructors. They were more well-educated people and they were very, very funny. They liked Americans, they enjoyed their jobs. But I just, you know, I don't have a lot of super positive memories of being in Colombia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Before we move to your next assignment, are there any individuals, either Peace Corps volunteers or Colombians, with whom you have had contact consequent to your life in Colombia?

[User] None.

[Assistant] Interesting. Mm hmm. Ok.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really enjoyed the. I really enjoyed speaking Spanish, talking with people, did some touring around to visit other volunteers and see what their jobs were. The country was absolutely beautiful. And some of the cultural attractions in Bogota that we saw while we were there, going to the Museo de Oro, the Gold Museum, and some of the other attractions. I'm sure we went to some other museums and parks, which Bogota had a plentiful supply, and very good restaurants. Neiva not so much. It was a much smaller town, but Bogota, even in those days, was a very, very large town. And but I really enjoyed my time interacting with the Spanish language instructors. They were more well-educated people and they were very, very funny. They liked Americans, they enjoyed their jobs. But I just, you know, I don't have a lot of super positive memories of being in Colombia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Before we move to your next assignment, are there any individuals, either Peace Corps volunteers or Colombians, with whom you have had contact consequent to your life in Colombia?

[User] None.

[Assistant] Interesting. Mm hmm. Ok.

[User] I wasn't there long enough to make really good friends with the volunteers or with any Colombians, you know? But with language training in one city, work in another city, and then gone. It was a fairly small length of service, really.

[Assistant] Do you have any regrets about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None.

[Assistant] Interesting. Mm hmm. Ok.

[User] I wasn't there long enough to make really good friends with the volunteers or with any Colombians, you know? But with language training in one city, work in another city, and then gone. It was a fairly small length of service, really.

[Assistant] Do you have any regrets about that?

[User] Oh, no, none. It was a very good experience. I enjoyed being there. I mean, I have my doubts that what I did was had any kind of lasting effect. But maybe the fact of interacting with those prisoners and just treating them like regular people and having some fun in an adult recreation was, you know, it certainly helped them in a small way, you know, get through their prison time.

[Assistant] Was that prison program continued? Or do you have any idea whether it was continued after you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't there long enough to make really good friends with the volunteers or with any Colombians, you know? But with language training in one city, work in another city, and then gone. It was a fairly small length of service, really.

[Assistant] Do you have any regrets about that?

[User] Oh, no, none. It was a very good experience. I enjoyed being there. I mean, I have my doubts that what I did was had any kind of lasting effect. But maybe the fact of interacting with those prisoners and just treating them like regular people and having some fun in an adult recreation was, you know, it certainly helped them in a small way, you know, get through their prison time.

[Assistant] Was that prison program continued? Or do you have any idea whether it was continued after you left?

[User] I don't know for sure. I never heard.

[Assistant] Yeah. Ok, let's move you to your next assignment then. What did you do when you left Colombia? Where did you go and what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, none. It was a very good experience. I enjoyed being there. I mean, I have my doubts that what I did was had any kind of lasting effect. But maybe the fact of interacting with those prisoners and just treating them like regular people and having some fun in an adult recreation was, you know, it certainly helped them in a small way, you know, get through their prison time.

[Assistant] Was that prison program continued? Or do you have any idea whether it was continued after you left?

[User] I don't know for sure. I never heard.

[Assistant] Yeah. Ok, let's move you to your next assignment then. What did you do when you left Colombia? Where did you go and what did you do?

[User] You mean, after I went to D.C.?

[Assistant] Yes, is that where you landed directly from Colombia then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know for sure. I never heard.

[Assistant] Yeah. Ok, let's move you to your next assignment then. What did you do when you left Colombia? Where did you go and what did you do?

[User] You mean, after I went to D.C.?

[Assistant] Yes, is that where you landed directly from Colombia then?

[User] No. I went home to Florida and was there for a little bit and then went up to D.C. for a couple of days, circulated around Peace Corps headquarters, talked to some people and there was nothing immediately that happened. And then I went back to Florida and thinking, I better figure out what I am going to do with my life because Peace Corps doesn't look like it's happening for me. But a few days later, I got a phone call from D.C. saying we have an opportunity that we think fits your skill set. Would you consider a position in Kenya? And I said, well, that depends, is it a real job? And they said, oh yes, it's definitely a real job. You would be working at the Medical Training Center in Nairobi. It's in close proximity to the National Hospital, and they train people who are radiologists, physical therapists, pharmacists, and you would be working with the faculty to develop audiovisual teaching aids. I said, OK, sounds good. Yes, I'll do it. So there was a point, I don't believe that, I don't think we really got, well, on the plane to go until January. So I think it was just they weren't ready for me to come until after the first of the year.

[Assistant] This would have been January of 1975 then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had some language training, but there was no training for doing my job.

[Assistant] What kind of language?

[User]
Swahili. And the Peace Corps had had a hotel in Mombasa, right on the coast, where the true Swahili speakers live in Kenya is along the coast. And they had a small hotel called the New Sea Breezes. And for a number of years, they were running language classes at the New Sea Breezes. And there were some German volunteers that were also taking Swahili. Kenya has two national languages, English and Swahili. So they felt like we should learn some Swahili because out in the countryside where you would find different tribes, they might not speak any English, but they would probably speak some Swahili. So I really enjoyed my language training and I just enjoy learning language, and it's pretty easy for me.

So in the Swahili language is not that different from the Spanish language in its rhythm and its pronunciation. Of course, the grammar is different, but the fact that it had the same sounds and kind of the same rhythm made it easier to learn. And so I picked up on some Swahili and had two different phases of Swahili training, but phase one was in the New Sea Breezes is phase one. Phase two was a month or two down the road after I'd been on the job. I was plucked from my office environment and put on an oceanfront hotel to take language lessons under a thatched roof hut on the beach.

[Assistant] Tough assignment.

[User] It was, but the language learning was important. I went, I went, and I did my best in those trying circumstances.

[Assistant] It sounds pretty idyllic to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Swahili. And the Peace Corps had had a hotel in Mombasa, right on the coast, where the true Swahili speakers live in Kenya is along the coast. And they had a small hotel called the New Sea Breezes. And for a number of years, they were running language classes at the New Sea Breezes. And there were some German volunteers that were also taking Swahili. Kenya has two national languages, English and Swahili. So they felt like we should learn some Swahili because out in the countryside where you would find different tribes, they might not speak any English, but they would probably speak some Swahili. So I really enjoyed my language training and I just enjoy learning language, and it's pretty easy for me.

So in the Swahili language is not that different from the Spanish language in its rhythm and its pronunciation. Of course, the grammar is different, but the fact that it had the same sounds and kind of the same rhythm made it easier to learn. And so I picked up on some Swahili and had two different phases of Swahili training, but phase one was in the New Sea Breezes is phase one. Phase two was a month or two down the road after I'd been on the job. I was plucked from my office environment and put on an oceanfront hotel to take language lessons under a thatched roof hut on the beach.

[Assistant] Tough assignment.

[User] It was, but the language learning was important. I went, I went, and I did my best in those trying circumstances.

[Assistant] It sounds pretty idyllic to me.

[User] It was. It was really good, especially if you take into consideration the palm wine that was flowing after the language classes were over for the day.

[Assistant] OK, so that was the extent of your formal training, and it sounds like it was in the language. And what about your day to day job as an audiovisual specialist? Did you know about audiovisual technology before you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, but the language learning was important. I went, I went, and I did my best in those trying circumstances.

[Assistant] It sounds pretty idyllic to me.

[User] It was. It was really good, especially if you take into consideration the palm wine that was flowing after the language classes were over for the day.

[Assistant] OK, so that was the extent of your formal training, and it sounds like it was in the language. And what about your day to day job as an audiovisual specialist? Did you know about audiovisual technology before you went?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] How had you learned that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was really good, especially if you take into consideration the palm wine that was flowing after the language classes were over for the day.

[Assistant] OK, so that was the extent of your formal training, and it sounds like it was in the language. And what about your day to day job as an audiovisual specialist? Did you know about audiovisual technology before you went?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] How had you learned that?

[User]
I was self-taught. I had done some video. I had a part time job in college as a videotaping technician for the L.A. City School District. And that was, you know, I don't know, you know, I knew I could write because I didn't have any problem writing in my journalism classes. And so the rest of the audiovisual component or department at the medical training center was a Peace Corps volunteer who was a medical illustrator. He would draw anatomical drawings and they would run them off on a mimeograph machine. Well, I didn't know when I got there that that mimeograph machine was about the extent of the AV equipment. But my first job was to survey the audiovisual equipment, and it didn't take long to determine that the 16-millimeter projector that they had was ancient and was broken.

So my daily duties were to show up, read the newspaper, go to tea with the faculty members, morning tea in British. Morning and afternoon tea is a British tradition, and Kenya had been a British colony, so they had a lot of British customs. After that checked the mail, mail time was at teatime, but after that it was pretty much head to the city into town for lunch, and that was the end of the day. Well, it was pretty strange because I knew that, I mean, my associate wasn't working that hard, but he had been there for two years and had extended for two more.

[Assistant] So he was a Peace Corps volunteer too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] How had you learned that?

[User]
I was self-taught. I had done some video. I had a part time job in college as a videotaping technician for the L.A. City School District. And that was, you know, I don't know, you know, I knew I could write because I didn't have any problem writing in my journalism classes. And so the rest of the audiovisual component or department at the medical training center was a Peace Corps volunteer who was a medical illustrator. He would draw anatomical drawings and they would run them off on a mimeograph machine. Well, I didn't know when I got there that that mimeograph machine was about the extent of the AV equipment. But my first job was to survey the audiovisual equipment, and it didn't take long to determine that the 16-millimeter projector that they had was ancient and was broken.

So my daily duties were to show up, read the newspaper, go to tea with the faculty members, morning tea in British. Morning and afternoon tea is a British tradition, and Kenya had been a British colony, so they had a lot of British customs. After that checked the mail, mail time was at teatime, but after that it was pretty much head to the city into town for lunch, and that was the end of the day. Well, it was pretty strange because I knew that, I mean, my associate wasn't working that hard, but he had been there for two years and had extended for two more.

[Assistant] So he was a Peace Corps volunteer too.

[User] He was in his third year as a Peace Corps volunteer, so he knew everybody. Everybody was comfortable with him, and he and I shared an office. I didn't really have anything to do in the office, but we were still in there and he was doing his drawings.

[Assistant] And he was the medical illustrator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And after my meeting with the director, I tried to slow down a little bit, but it's when you're already at stop, it's difficult to slow down any further. But I did look for additional projects that I could do with the medical training center. I can't say that anything came to much, but after another six months of basically nothing, I decided that I would look for another position in Kenya.

[Assistant] Was your companion, the medical illustrator Peace Corps volunteer, was he still there and was he continuing to do illustrations?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So he was pretty busy then.

[User] I wouldn't say he was busy, but he had steady, he had steady work.

[Assistant] And did he talk with you about what things you might be able to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was north of, uh, it was north of Mombasa, north of Malindi, which Malindi was, where the hotel was where we did the language training. So you kept going north. And I mean, pretty far north, you're getting close to the I mean, you have to go a bit farther to get to the, well, to get to Ethiopia. But it was far northeastern part of the coast, off the coast.

[Assistant] So this director's name, the director of the African Studies Institute, that's the man you were working with?

[User] No, I was working with a research fellow. His name was James Atalon.

[Assistant] And you said you did some of the recordings of these ritual dancing, that you did those recordings in video?

[User] Audio.

[Assistant] In audio, so you weren't able to capture the images unfortunately.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was working with a research fellow. His name was James Atalon.

[Assistant] And you said you did some of the recordings of these ritual dancing, that you did those recordings in video?

[User] Audio.

[Assistant] In audio, so you weren't able to capture the images unfortunately.

[User] It was done, no, and I didn't have any video recording equipment. I did have audio recording equipment, but still cameras. But the dancing was done at night by torch light. So it would have been dramatic if I could have taken video, but just didn't have the ability to capture video like we do today.

[Assistant] So did you work with Mr. Allen through then the rest of your Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Young men becoming warriors. And in that process, they leave childhood, they get circumcised without anesthetic, and then they go into warrior training and they become warriors. But those things had been prohibited for quite a while, and this was the first time in years that that had been allowed. So it was there was a lot of joyous celebration with the warriors that were already full-fledged warriors dancing. And their dancing consisted of leaping off the ground, repeatedly, way off the ground. And the women, meantime, would just, you know, make these cries that were not melodies. They were just kind of a cry of joy from their, just kind of welled up out of them. I mean, if you've seen movies about Africa, you've heard that kind of cry. But it was the first time I had ever heard it in person, for sure. And it was a happy occasion. And it was, I think in doing that work, we probably helped save some vision for some of those people. It was a short, fairly short-term project, but it had some ongoing aspects that I really wasn't a part of.

[Assistant] What was your role in this?

[User] I was taking photographs and I was a logistics expert, which meant that I would take a Land Rover and pick up a group of Samburu and haul them to a tent where the equipment had been set up. They would be examined and then I would put them back in the Land Rover and take them back close to where I picked them up and get some more people. So I was just facilitating the. I had met Dr. Whitfield is just a friend, a friend of a friend type thing, and it was his idea to invite me along on the study, which I was happy to do. And the African Studies Institute, they were very relaxed about my work and the hours.

[Assistant] Did you record any of the things that were happening then, either by photography or video or audio?

[User] I have still pictures. I have images, but I don't have any audio recording or video.

[Assistant] Of the ritual. Right, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was taking photographs and I was a logistics expert, which meant that I would take a Land Rover and pick up a group of Samburu and haul them to a tent where the equipment had been set up. They would be examined and then I would put them back in the Land Rover and take them back close to where I picked them up and get some more people. So I was just facilitating the. I had met Dr. Whitfield is just a friend, a friend of a friend type thing, and it was his idea to invite me along on the study, which I was happy to do. And the African Studies Institute, they were very relaxed about my work and the hours.

[Assistant] Did you record any of the things that were happening then, either by photography or video or audio?

[User] I have still pictures. I have images, but I don't have any audio recording or video.

[Assistant] Of the ritual. Right, right.

[User] A pretty good number of still images.

[Assistant] Yes. Ok, so were there other projects that you remember from that work, from your work with the African Studies Institute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
In Seattle, and I was delivering pizzas and cooking pizzas and managing others who were doing the same. But that was short lived, and I was living in a really rundown part of Seattle near the Space Needle, which I'm sure now is gentrified and is very fancy and expensive. But it was had some really low rent flats in those days that occupied by me and a gazillion cockroaches. Not cockroaches, silver fish, those little tiny ones. Anyway, but right across the street from where I lived, there was a broadcast school and I kept hearing ads for it on the radio. The Ron Bailie School of Broadcast. I thought, well, I would like to be in radio or TV journalism.

So I enrolled at the Ron Bailie School of Broadcast, took their fairly short. It was a trade school and I got a certification as a first-class radio telephone operator with the FCC, which was a real job ticket. Because radio stations had to have a first-class licensee on their staff just because the regulations, so you could you could get a job even if you were lousy. But as a deejay or a newsman, but I got a job after Ron Bailie working across the bay in a little town called Bremerton. And I was playing music and doing a part time news job. So I pursued a broadcast career in Washington, and then I eventually decided to come back to Florida and did more deejay and journalism work for a while until that career ended and another career started in the banking business.

[Assistant] OK, and about when did that transition happen?

[User] That would have been about 1977, early '78.

[Assistant] And then when you went into the banking business, were you also in public relations?

[User] I started out in public relations, in marketing, and then became a true banker, running, doing consumer loans and managing a bank branch.

[Assistant] And how long were you in? Was this in Florida?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That would have been about 1977, early '78.

[Assistant] And then when you went into the banking business, were you also in public relations?

[User] I started out in public relations, in marketing, and then became a true banker, running, doing consumer loans and managing a bank branch.

[Assistant] And how long were you in? Was this in Florida?

[User] Florida.

[Assistant] And how long were you in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started out in public relations, in marketing, and then became a true banker, running, doing consumer loans and managing a bank branch.

[Assistant] And how long were you in? Was this in Florida?

[User] Florida.

[Assistant] And how long were you in that?

[User] I did that about, uh, I did that 10 years old, about 11 years.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So until the eighties, into the '80s, well into the '80s, probably, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Florida.

[Assistant] And how long were you in that?

[User] I did that about, uh, I did that 10 years old, about 11 years.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So until the eighties, into the '80s, well into the '80s, probably, yeah.

[User] It was. It was well into the '80s and into the '90s, in fact.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. OK. And now you're in the information business.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did that about, uh, I did that 10 years old, about 11 years.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So until the eighties, into the '80s, well into the '80s, probably, yeah.

[User] It was. It was well into the '80s and into the '90s, in fact.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. OK. And now you're in the information business.

[User] I am, the software, the software business. Yeah, we didn't even have computers for much of my, well, of course, in the bank, you have a computer. But in those days it was one little screen connected to a giant computer at headquarters that everybody had to use that one screen. But of course, the personal computer revolution was happening at that time. But yeah, but when the banking industry left me, I got a job with a software company and that's, I'm still working with that same product. The company got acquired, but I stayed with the company that acquired the small software company, and it's been a very rewarding and, for the most part, enjoyable career.

[Assistant] Good. Let's, as we wind this conversation down, let's reflect a little bit about how your experience as a Peace Corps volunteer in in two different countries, how that influenced your career or your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were post-flight. Our purpose in life is post-flight, so we had no impact on stopping a launch. They would consider us if it was like 25-foot seas out there. They’d say, “Well, you’re not going to be on station.” There’s been twice since I’ve been here where they’ve sent aircraft out to spot the boosters.

[Assistant] Do you remember which flights those were?

[User] No I don’t, I’m sorry.

[Assistant] I just had one other question, kind of a fun question. You guys are known as the “NASA Navy.” What do you guys think of that term?

[User] I don’t know, I never paid a whole lot of attention to it. We’re also called the Yacht Club sometimes.

[Assistant]
I hadn’t heard that one.

This operation is very unique. You spent so much of your life in marine operations. This one is a lot like what you’ve done, yet different. What do you find to be the most challenging part of the job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a fair question. It’s all good, I don’t know how you’d look at it as a challenge. When the Air Force Titan blew up with an NRO [National Reconnaissance Office] payload on it, we’re all sitting in class and you get the call, “Hey, you guys may be going to sea.” That afternoon it’s, “You’re going to sea,” and we’re steaming out of here and heading off shore.\n\n Everybody here is up for a challenge, so the challenge in rough seas and getting the operation done safely probably was one of the biggest things. You can get real wound up out there trying to watch people and hope people weren’t getting hurt. We went from when I was first here, the little soft-bottom inflatables with outboards on them, to hard bottom boats that are heavy. The other boats you could drag around by hand, these boats weigh 2,500 pounds. Somebody could get smashed up against the ship, fall in that hard aluminum hull, a bunch of different things.\n\n You’ve got to worry about a guy falling out of a rubber boat, but he’s not going to get hurt. A guy in a rubber boat calls you up saying, “Hey, the boat is sinking. What do I do?” “Get out of the boat.” “Huh?” “Get out of the boat, it’s not going to go anywhere.” These aluminum hulls with the flotation around them, they’re hard. People can get hurt. You worry about that sort of stuff. You worry about people getting hurt. I think that’s probably the most challenging thing for me, is trying to ensure in the operations we’re doing that none of our people get hurt.

[Assistant] You’ve been here for a number of years. How many missions did you actually work for the Shuttle program?

[User] I don’t have any idea.

[Assistant] The barge, did you make that journey?

[User] I wasn’t involved in that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can think of that we hadn’t thought about asking you about that is part of your job or part of the operations that maybe we just haven’t thought about asking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t have any idea.

[Assistant] The barge, did you make that journey?

[User] I wasn’t involved in that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can think of that we hadn’t thought about asking you about that is part of your job or part of the operations that maybe we just haven’t thought about asking?

[User] No, it’s been a unique job. It’s been a lot of fun. We’ve had some wonderful people here, some very talented people. A lot of ideas and a lot of different work. As I said, I don’t think there was a single retrieval mission that was the same as the other one.

[Assistant] The good thing was that they all came back safe, and you got your hardware back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t involved in that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you can think of that we hadn’t thought about asking you about that is part of your job or part of the operations that maybe we just haven’t thought about asking?

[User] No, it’s been a unique job. It’s been a lot of fun. We’ve had some wonderful people here, some very talented people. A lot of ideas and a lot of different work. As I said, I don’t think there was a single retrieval mission that was the same as the other one.

[Assistant] The good thing was that they all came back safe, and you got your hardware back.

[User] Yes, got the hardware back in good condition the whole time.

[Assistant] That’s a good way to end the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it’s been a unique job. It’s been a lot of fun. We’ve had some wonderful people here, some very talented people. A lot of ideas and a lot of different work. As I said, I don’t think there was a single retrieval mission that was the same as the other one.

[Assistant] The good thing was that they all came back safe, and you got your hardware back.

[User] Yes, got the hardware back in good condition the whole time.

[Assistant] That’s a good way to end the program.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Well, thank you for giving us your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I go by Tom.

[Assistant] Tom, Ok. [We are] at your home [in Lago Vista, Texas] on June 7th 1999. The interview is being conducted under a [cooperative agreement] between Southwest Texas State University and NASA [Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas]. You will receive a copy of the transcript from NASA, not from me or the University. Do you understand that this interview is being conducted for SWT and NASA archives for research purposes?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I guess the best place to start is biographical background; childhood, where you grew up. Beginning there.

[User] I was born in Anniston, Alabama, in 1938. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, and I graduated from Auburn University in 1961 with a Bachelors degree in aeronautical engineering. I went to work for the Navy Department in a wind tunnel, up around the Washington, D.C. area initially, and worked for a year and a half there before I took a job with NASA. NASA was just starting in their Houston operation, having moved there from Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]. This was in 1962, October ’62.\n\n I guess that’s pretty much it, how I got to NASA. Is that about what you’re looking for?

[Assistant] Did you see an ad in the newspaper or did you just talk to people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really enjoy working on computers.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] I’m taking some courses at the junior college, networking and that kind of thing, local area networks, Novell and NT. But that’s pretty much my career so far.

[Assistant] One last question, real quick.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] If you look back on your career is there just one thing that really stands out if you’re just chit chatting/talking about what you did? Really bad or really good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He would write everything on his blackboard. We’re back in the blackboard-and-chalk days here. So he would write things on his blackboard, options or things they needed to decide or things that needed to be done or decisions they’d make. He would just write it on the blackboard, so by the end of the afternoon or into the evening when he quit, it would be full, and so he would have his secretary—he had a crackerjack secretary—go in and she would copy all that stuff down and type it up, and that would serve as the minutes of the meeting.\n\n Well, it evolved and evolved, and by Shuttle, they were big meetings with a lot of people going to them. But that was their Flight Techniques’ humble little start.

[Assistant] How often did that group meet?

[User] It could have been weekly. It wasn’t more often than that.

[Assistant] That was a good opportunity for you to learn.

[User] Yes, so that was another fun thing.

[Assistant] Before we get off this time period, could you share with us—you mentioned something about overnight computing, and you came of this age also when computers were starting to be used. Can you give us kind of a look at how your experience grew, how you used your math and started doing these computer programs and, as you mentioned, stacking the decks and overrunning those at night?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before.

[Assistant] Before?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All of this is pre-Gagarin?

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] That, to a degree at least, prompted action, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All of this is pre-Gagarin?

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] That, to a degree at least, prompted action, didn’t it?

[User] That’s right. This activity was in the spring of ’58. And [Sputnik had been launched roughly 7 months before]—

[Assistant] This was leading up, then, to the formation of NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] That, to a degree at least, prompted action, didn’t it?

[User] That’s right. This activity was in the spring of ’58. And [Sputnik had been launched roughly 7 months before]—

[Assistant] This was leading up, then, to the formation of NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration].

[User] Yes, it was leading up to the formation of NASA. And as I say, Gilruth and Faget and one other person—Charlie [Charles H.] Zimmerman—were key people in the fight not only for NASA, but in the fight for a manned spaceflight program. Even within the NACA group, there [were] questions about how important a manned spaceflight program might be. Many were much more interested in a pure science type of program.\n\n But, in any event, I went up and briefed them with this spec. And as a result, Max was able to show this spec to the President’s Scientific Advisory Committee—the PSAC committee. The Air Force, who was our chief competitor, didn’t have a spec at that time. And, although they had been doing work on it in advance of the work that we had done, they hadn’t bothered to really end up having a true detailed specification. And that was a significant [point] in getting a manned spaceflight program and having it put in NASA.\n\n The reason why NASA, I guess, was formed in the first place as a civil agency is that’s what Eisenhower wanted. He did not want to have a military activity in space other than for military purposes itself. He felt that if there were space activities for other purposes, that should be headed by a civil agency. Well, after it was pretty well decided that there would be a NASA and that NACA would be the nucleus for developing a NASA, Gilruth, [Zimmerman,] and Faget came back. We went to work on preparing a work statement for the purpose of letting contracts for the so-called Mercury spacecraft. That was also about the time the spacecraft was named “Mercury,” by the way.

[Assistant] By this time, was the Space Task Group yet in place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mercury Control.

[Assistant] So, in other words, that was the predecessor of all the more modern control rooms.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] With such things as flight dynamics—

[User] Well, we had all those. We had flight dynamics officers and it was much more rudimentary, of course. But we had all those things. In fact, Chris had set up this Control Center organization; and some very key people—there was a fellow by the name of Tec, Tecwyn Roberts, who was a Welshman, who in a way, as far as Flight Control was [concerned], was Chris’s right-hand man. Very low profile. He did operate in the Control Center, but he was much more low profile. But he, in many respects, was the brains behind a lot of the things that went on. And then there was a Scotchman who ultimately went back; I think he went back to Great Britain. But he did an awful lot of work on the design of the Control Center itself. But there [were] a considerable number of people, like John [D.] Hodge was another Flight Director, and so forth. And these were either Canadians or Englishmen or Welshmen and Scotchmen and what-have-you. So that was the international impact on the Mercury Program.

[Assistant] And right about that time, when all of these things were beginning to go into place, is that when Walt Williams came aboard with his X-15 experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He had begun working on it; right.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I started working with him on it, largely to bring in the operational inputs again. And at that time I spent most of the time on that spacecraft, which turned out to be the Gemini spacecraft. Later on, as things developed more completely, the Gemini spacecraft went well beyond that because, as you know—as everybody knows—the President decided to go to the Moon; and as we determined what things might be required to do that—like flying for a week or two, or rendezvous, or extravehicular activity, and so forth—these things were injected into the Gemini spacecraft.

[Assistant] According to my notes, too, they even had something called parasail, which they wanted to work with—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and introducing the Titan rocket rather than the Atlas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and introducing the Titan rocket rather than the Atlas.

[User] Yeah, that’s correct. And I’ll get to that eventually in just a minute.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But anyway, Gilruth was very strong in this, that there should be an intermediate spacecraft between Mercury and Apollo that could demonstrate that the things that were being specified for Apollo, in terms of mission specifications and other things, could really be accomplished. And as a result, the Gemini spacecraft was subsequently approved. And as a matter of fact, Gemini and the Apollo command module, the contracts for those two were let within a month of each other—one for a short-base program to get information in a hurry, and the other for a much longer program, which ultimately would land on the Moon.

[Assistant] And somewhere in there, somebody had to decide how do you pronounce the name. Was it Gemini [long e] or Gemini [long i].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that’s correct. And I’ll get to that eventually in just a minute.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But anyway, Gilruth was very strong in this, that there should be an intermediate spacecraft between Mercury and Apollo that could demonstrate that the things that were being specified for Apollo, in terms of mission specifications and other things, could really be accomplished. And as a result, the Gemini spacecraft was subsequently approved. And as a matter of fact, Gemini and the Apollo command module, the contracts for those two were let within a month of each other—one for a short-base program to get information in a hurry, and the other for a much longer program, which ultimately would land on the Moon.

[Assistant] And somewhere in there, somebody had to decide how do you pronounce the name. Was it Gemini [long e] or Gemini [long i].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Which way would it be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Which way would it be?

[User] Well, I gave a talk just recently down at the Cape. They’re putting in a Gemini memorial down there, [and] they had a banquet. They raised that same question. And I told the audience that I’d like to have them vote. So I told them that I would like everyone [who] favored Gemini [long e] to say “Aye,” and after that I asked the audience that everyone [who] favored Gemini [long i] to say “Aye,” and of course there were ayes on both sides. And I said, “The ayes have it.” And, it’s really pronounced Gemini [long i], okay?

[Assistant] [laughs] Well—

[User] Frequently, I call it Gemini [long e], but—

[Assistant] I noticed you’ve been calling it Gemini [long e] throughout this interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I gave a talk just recently down at the Cape. They’re putting in a Gemini memorial down there, [and] they had a banquet. They raised that same question. And I told the audience that I’d like to have them vote. So I told them that I would like everyone [who] favored Gemini [long e] to say “Aye,” and after that I asked the audience that everyone [who] favored Gemini [long i] to say “Aye,” and of course there were ayes on both sides. And I said, “The ayes have it.” And, it’s really pronounced Gemini [long i], okay?

[Assistant] [laughs] Well—

[User] Frequently, I call it Gemini [long e], but—

[Assistant] I noticed you’ve been calling it Gemini [long e] throughout this interview.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So do I. Walt Williams told me to call it that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Frequently, I call it Gemini [long e], but—

[Assistant] I noticed you’ve been calling it Gemini [long e] throughout this interview.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So do I. Walt Williams told me to call it that.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] He said, “That’s the way it’s going to be.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So do I. Walt Williams told me to call it that.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] He said, “That’s the way it’s going to be.”

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] He made an instant decision. I don’t think it’ll ever get fully resolved, do you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] He said, “That’s the way it’s going to be.”

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] He made an instant decision. I don’t think it’ll ever get fully resolved, do you?

[User] No, I don’t.

[Assistant] I’m sorry I interrupted, but I—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] He made an instant decision. I don’t think it’ll ever get fully resolved, do you?

[User] No, I don’t.

[Assistant] I’m sorry I interrupted, but I—

[User] Oh, that’s okay.

[Assistant] —had to go with that, so that for future reference, future generations will probably call it Gemini [long e] or Gemini [long i].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t.

[Assistant] I’m sorry I interrupted, but I—

[User] Oh, that’s okay.

[Assistant] —had to go with that, so that for future reference, future generations will probably call it Gemini [long e] or Gemini [long i].

[User] Right. [laughs]

[Assistant] All right, sir. Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Who?

[Assistant] Jerome Wiesner?

[User] Yeah. Wiesner was the head of it, but he didn’t show up at this meeting. It was his Deputy, and he ultimately became head of it, but I can’t remember his name right now.

[Assistant] As we left off, we were talking here about lunar orbit, Earth orbit, Huntsville vs. Houston—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and the whole thing was a big Magilla.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Wiesner was the head of it, but he didn’t show up at this meeting. It was his Deputy, and he ultimately became head of it, but I can’t remember his name right now.

[Assistant] As we left off, we were talking here about lunar orbit, Earth orbit, Huntsville vs. Houston—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and the whole thing was a big Magilla.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did it work out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —and the whole thing was a big Magilla.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did it work out?

[User] I had mentioned the fact that we had discussed lunar orbit rendezvous. We had fun with all these people at a cocktail hour between the 2 days of meetings, and then in the afternoon of the second day, the fellow that was chairing the meeting said, “I understand that there’s somebody here [who] knows something about lunar orbit rendezvous. And I wonder if Mr. Mathews would get up and tell us about it.” So I [got] up and, of course, these PSAC people were very brilliant people and great debaters and everything else, and they were literally cutting me to ribbons, I’m telling you. [Every time] I’d bring up something, there was about five different reasons why the idea was no good, you know. And I was very miserable. But, there was kind of a pause, and Wernher got up and said, “I’ve been thinking about lunar orbit rendezvous, and lunar orbit rendezvous is the way to go.”

[Assistant] This is Wernher von Braun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How did it work out?

[User] I had mentioned the fact that we had discussed lunar orbit rendezvous. We had fun with all these people at a cocktail hour between the 2 days of meetings, and then in the afternoon of the second day, the fellow that was chairing the meeting said, “I understand that there’s somebody here [who] knows something about lunar orbit rendezvous. And I wonder if Mr. Mathews would get up and tell us about it.” So I [got] up and, of course, these PSAC people were very brilliant people and great debaters and everything else, and they were literally cutting me to ribbons, I’m telling you. [Every time] I’d bring up something, there was about five different reasons why the idea was no good, you know. And I was very miserable. But, there was kind of a pause, and Wernher got up and said, “I’ve been thinking about lunar orbit rendezvous, and lunar orbit rendezvous is the way to go.”

[Assistant] This is Wernher von Braun?

[User] Wernher von Braun. Now that story has been told other ways, like Joe Shea being involved with it. And I think he was subsequently involved with—not with the PSAC meeting but with a discussion with the Huntsville people. But that’s really what happened at that particular time.

[Assistant] PSAC is what? The Presidential Science Advisory—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had mentioned the fact that we had discussed lunar orbit rendezvous. We had fun with all these people at a cocktail hour between the 2 days of meetings, and then in the afternoon of the second day, the fellow that was chairing the meeting said, “I understand that there’s somebody here [who] knows something about lunar orbit rendezvous. And I wonder if Mr. Mathews would get up and tell us about it.” So I [got] up and, of course, these PSAC people were very brilliant people and great debaters and everything else, and they were literally cutting me to ribbons, I’m telling you. [Every time] I’d bring up something, there was about five different reasons why the idea was no good, you know. And I was very miserable. But, there was kind of a pause, and Wernher got up and said, “I’ve been thinking about lunar orbit rendezvous, and lunar orbit rendezvous is the way to go.”

[Assistant] This is Wernher von Braun?

[User] Wernher von Braun. Now that story has been told other ways, like Joe Shea being involved with it. And I think he was subsequently involved with—not with the PSAC meeting but with a discussion with the Huntsville people. But that’s really what happened at that particular time.

[Assistant] PSAC is what? The Presidential Science Advisory—?

[User] Committee.

[Assistant] Committee. Just for interest.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wernher von Braun. Now that story has been told other ways, like Joe Shea being involved with it. And I think he was subsequently involved with—not with the PSAC meeting but with a discussion with the Huntsville people. But that’s really what happened at that particular time.

[Assistant] PSAC is what? The Presidential Science Advisory—?

[User] Committee.

[Assistant] Committee. Just for interest.

[User] And it was in existence for a very long period of time; well before the Mercury—well before NASA. And then, oh, up to at least to the seventies, I’d say; maybe even longer. But, in any event, there was one other aspect of that story which I wasn’t involved with. But, during a visit that Kennedy made to the Marshall Center, the PSAC people again brought this question of Earth orbit rendezvous up, and von Braun told them, “No, NASA has already decided it’s going to be lunar orbit rendezvous.” And, of course, that pretty well ended [it]. There were some other formalities, you know; reports to be written and things like that—

[Assistant] The essence of this, as I gather it, Chuck, is: that during this period of time, you were looking ahead and then the real essence of what you were doing at that time was to figure out what did you need to know before you could ever possibly move on into Apollo, and what it would entail. And that seems to me to be squarely centered on Gemini, which was the interim program, was it not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Committee.

[Assistant] Committee. Just for interest.

[User] And it was in existence for a very long period of time; well before the Mercury—well before NASA. And then, oh, up to at least to the seventies, I’d say; maybe even longer. But, in any event, there was one other aspect of that story which I wasn’t involved with. But, during a visit that Kennedy made to the Marshall Center, the PSAC people again brought this question of Earth orbit rendezvous up, and von Braun told them, “No, NASA has already decided it’s going to be lunar orbit rendezvous.” And, of course, that pretty well ended [it]. There were some other formalities, you know; reports to be written and things like that—

[Assistant] The essence of this, as I gather it, Chuck, is: that during this period of time, you were looking ahead and then the real essence of what you were doing at that time was to figure out what did you need to know before you could ever possibly move on into Apollo, and what it would entail. And that seems to me to be squarely centered on Gemini, which was the interim program, was it not?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how in the world did you get to be head of the Gemini Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was in existence for a very long period of time; well before the Mercury—well before NASA. And then, oh, up to at least to the seventies, I’d say; maybe even longer. But, in any event, there was one other aspect of that story which I wasn’t involved with. But, during a visit that Kennedy made to the Marshall Center, the PSAC people again brought this question of Earth orbit rendezvous up, and von Braun told them, “No, NASA has already decided it’s going to be lunar orbit rendezvous.” And, of course, that pretty well ended [it]. There were some other formalities, you know; reports to be written and things like that—

[Assistant] The essence of this, as I gather it, Chuck, is: that during this period of time, you were looking ahead and then the real essence of what you were doing at that time was to figure out what did you need to know before you could ever possibly move on into Apollo, and what it would entail. And that seems to me to be squarely centered on Gemini, which was the interim program, was it not?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how in the world did you get to be head of the Gemini Program?

[User] All right. Well, as I say I was working in the Spacecraft Technology Division, and we had fought the battle of lunar orbit rendezvous and the lunar module. And, just like on Mercury or any of these programs, we’d sent out a request for proposal with a specification and got proposals in and had, in fact, selected Grumman as the developer of the lunar module. This occurred just before Christmas in 1962. And that pretty well ended my involvement with the Apollo Program. The groups that I [was] working with went on to other things, even doing some work on the Space Station and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s remarkable to me that Space Station was being seriously discussed and considered all the way back in time, into the early sixties. It took a long time to come to fruition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, how in the world did you get to be head of the Gemini Program?

[User] All right. Well, as I say I was working in the Spacecraft Technology Division, and we had fought the battle of lunar orbit rendezvous and the lunar module. And, just like on Mercury or any of these programs, we’d sent out a request for proposal with a specification and got proposals in and had, in fact, selected Grumman as the developer of the lunar module. This occurred just before Christmas in 1962. And that pretty well ended my involvement with the Apollo Program. The groups that I [was] working with went on to other things, even doing some work on the Space Station and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s remarkable to me that Space Station was being seriously discussed and considered all the way back in time, into the early sixties. It took a long time to come to fruition.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, I’m sorry I interrupted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right. Well, as I say I was working in the Spacecraft Technology Division, and we had fought the battle of lunar orbit rendezvous and the lunar module. And, just like on Mercury or any of these programs, we’d sent out a request for proposal with a specification and got proposals in and had, in fact, selected Grumman as the developer of the lunar module. This occurred just before Christmas in 1962. And that pretty well ended my involvement with the Apollo Program. The groups that I [was] working with went on to other things, even doing some work on the Space Station and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s remarkable to me that Space Station was being seriously discussed and considered all the way back in time, into the early sixties. It took a long time to come to fruition.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, I’m sorry I interrupted.

[User] No, that’s fine.

[Assistant] It was just a thought.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Build the foundations.

[User] But, I think in a way we did our best work at that particular time. Anyway, it was the only [program] that was really downtown and in a rather poor district. So I went down there and spent about 3 hours trying to find it; I couldn’t even find where it was located. Finally [I] found it; it was operating on the 4th floor of this GSA building. Only one other floor was occupied; the rest of it was rat-infested, I guess you’d say. But they sent me over there with the idea that I had to determine, within 2 weeks, whether to continue the program or recommend to disband it. One of the reasons behind this was the fact that—I didn’t get to talk about Dyna-Soar; but that’s another manned spaceflight program that the Air Force put into being, really based on this Round Three concept that I mentioned a long time ago. It was a winged vehicle; and the program was being developed by the Boeing Company. And the Secretary of Defense—

[Assistant] [Robert S.] McNamara?

[User] McNamara, right. Every once in a while, these things slip me these days.

[Assistant] Yup. It was McNamara.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The thing is, are we going to get background?

[Assistant] We may. Let's just. All right. So this.

[User] Let's do a little bit and see.

[Assistant] Yeah. So this is Gail Gall on September 10th, 2009, and I'm interviewing Lon Lembert.

[User] 2019.

[Assistant]
Oh, 2019. And interviewing Lon Lembert, who was part of Honduras 15 group from 1969 to 1971.

It's still recording.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's do a little bit and see.

[Assistant] Yeah. So this is Gail Gall on September 10th, 2009, and I'm interviewing Lon Lembert.

[User] 2019.

[Assistant]
Oh, 2019. And interviewing Lon Lembert, who was part of Honduras 15 group from 1969 to 1971.

It's still recording.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Well. One, two, three, four, five, go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 2019.

[Assistant]
Oh, 2019. And interviewing Lon Lembert, who was part of Honduras 15 group from 1969 to 1971.

It's still recording.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Well. One, two, three, four, five, go.

[User] Little mini cassette tape.

[Assistant] Right. I know. They were so much easier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Well. One, two, three, four, five, go.

[User] Little mini cassette tape.

[Assistant] Right. I know. They were so much easier.

[User] Yeah, actually, that's very true.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so let's go ahead and start with, um. So today's interview is being conducted in Lesterville, Missouri. And with Lon Lembert and he's from group 15. So the first common question, of course, is why did you join the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Little mini cassette tape.

[Assistant] Right. I know. They were so much easier.

[User] Yeah, actually, that's very true.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so let's go ahead and start with, um. So today's interview is being conducted in Lesterville, Missouri. And with Lon Lembert and he's from group 15. So the first common question, of course, is why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] Ah.

[Assistant] And you have to, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, actually, that's very true.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so let's go ahead and start with, um. So today's interview is being conducted in Lesterville, Missouri. And with Lon Lembert and he's from group 15. So the first common question, of course, is why did you join the Peace Corps?

[User] Ah.

[Assistant] And you have to, yeah.

[User] Well, for probably two reasons. One, at the time of my senior year in college, I decided, based on some of the other things I've done, that I wanted to spend, that I want to do, to do something in my life that I could say I maybe made a difference or made a contribution. And the other one, of course, was I didn't want to go to the Vietnam War. And I figured this was positive versus the negative of being in the war. I had signed up and I'd been accepted into the Navy, but didn't, didn't want to go. That was actually a third fallback besides going to Canada. But mainly I had had some experience internationally and I wanted another one and I wanted it to be something that I felt like I was accomplishing something.

[Assistant] What was your other experience international?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah.

[Assistant] And you have to, yeah.

[User] Well, for probably two reasons. One, at the time of my senior year in college, I decided, based on some of the other things I've done, that I wanted to spend, that I want to do, to do something in my life that I could say I maybe made a difference or made a contribution. And the other one, of course, was I didn't want to go to the Vietnam War. And I figured this was positive versus the negative of being in the war. I had signed up and I'd been accepted into the Navy, but didn't, didn't want to go. That was actually a third fallback besides going to Canada. But mainly I had had some experience internationally and I wanted another one and I wanted it to be something that I felt like I was accomplishing something.

[Assistant] What was your other experience international?

[User] Well, I had gone to school in the Netherlands my junior year of college and been able to travel around all of Europe and some of Eastern Europe. And we had a lot of classes. It was business oriented and trade oriented. And the idea of trade and building up underdeveloped countries and stuff was of a, was of interest.

[Assistant] Okay, good, good, good. So before doing the Peace Corps, what, a little bit of your background. You talked a little bit about education and going abroad. Your childhood or any other experiences relevant to going into Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had gone to school in the Netherlands my junior year of college and been able to travel around all of Europe and some of Eastern Europe. And we had a lot of classes. It was business oriented and trade oriented. And the idea of trade and building up underdeveloped countries and stuff was of a, was of interest.

[Assistant] Okay, good, good, good. So before doing the Peace Corps, what, a little bit of your background. You talked a little bit about education and going abroad. Your childhood or any other experiences relevant to going into Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I don't know that they actually contributed to, uh. I grew up in a very, you know, the 1950s middle class, small town of Vancouver, Washington, right across the river from Portland, Oregon. I was the second of five in my family. My dad was a pediatrician. My mom was a housewife. I went to private Catholic schools from first grade up through 12 years of age. But I had had a Jesuit priest, uh, mister, who in my junior year taught sociology and was talking about Brown versus Board of Education and, and we were studying poverty and stuff. And he ended up then the next year going to Africa. And that made a big impact on me. He kind of put his money where his mouth was.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So a kind of a role model, influencer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know that they actually contributed to, uh. I grew up in a very, you know, the 1950s middle class, small town of Vancouver, Washington, right across the river from Portland, Oregon. I was the second of five in my family. My dad was a pediatrician. My mom was a housewife. I went to private Catholic schools from first grade up through 12 years of age. But I had had a Jesuit priest, uh, mister, who in my junior year taught sociology and was talking about Brown versus Board of Education and, and we were studying poverty and stuff. And he ended up then the next year going to Africa. And that made a big impact on me. He kind of put his money where his mouth was.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So a kind of a role model, influencer.

[User]
Yeah. Then I went to a small college in cow country and in central Washington and didn't think too much, too much about. Well, we were talking a lot about the war and about the military industrial complex and all those kinds of things. But it wasn't until I came back from Holland my senior year that I had a roommate who, and we talked a lot about all the situation, the world situation, and what we could do. And went middle of winter. All of a sudden, here's this sign by the student union, Peace Corps recruitment center.

So stopped in to get more information. And came back, filled out the stuff, and took the language test and applied. And I wanted to, I know that's one of the other thing is I chose Central South America as a primary simply because I figured, you know, Mr. Practical, that it would be something that I might be able to use the language when I came back. India was second and just for the total change of culture, and I thought that was very kind of interesting. And then Africa was third.

[Assistant] Hmm. That's pretty interesting. So, um. So you did hear about the Peace Corps. It sounds like we've covered this through the recruitment. What made you want to apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. Then I went to a small college in cow country and in central Washington and didn't think too much, too much about. Well, we were talking a lot about the war and about the military industrial complex and all those kinds of things. But it wasn't until I came back from Holland my senior year that I had a roommate who, and we talked a lot about all the situation, the world situation, and what we could do. And went middle of winter. All of a sudden, here's this sign by the student union, Peace Corps recruitment center.

So stopped in to get more information. And came back, filled out the stuff, and took the language test and applied. And I wanted to, I know that's one of the other thing is I chose Central South America as a primary simply because I figured, you know, Mr. Practical, that it would be something that I might be able to use the language when I came back. India was second and just for the total change of culture, and I thought that was very kind of interesting. And then Africa was third.

[Assistant] Hmm. That's pretty interesting. So, um. So you did hear about the Peace Corps. It sounds like we've covered this through the recruitment. What made you want to apply?

[User] Yeah, and I guess I had seen enough and maybe read little blurbs about this Peace Corps that was pretty new. And it sounded very, you know, very interesting. And being a Kennedy person spent, probably paid more attention to it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But when I saw the sign, it's like, oh, okay, let's, let's go check it out.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when you were accepted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and I guess I had seen enough and maybe read little blurbs about this Peace Corps that was pretty new. And it sounded very, you know, very interesting. And being a Kennedy person spent, probably paid more attention to it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But when I saw the sign, it's like, oh, okay, let's, let's go check it out.

[Assistant] So what was your reaction when you were accepted?

[User]
Well, so I had applied and hadn't heard anything, hadn't heard anything. Worried about the draft. So I extended, I took fewer hours my sophomore, my, uh, my senior spring quarter and I went to summer school to keep my 2-A classification. And about halfway through the summer, I was visiting a lady's house over in Seattle. And I got a call from one of my roommates and said, this guy from Washington, D.C., called. And so I asked if I could use the phone, called back, and they were saying, welcome, you've been accepted to Honduras. And honestly, I would have to say, okay, I got to get to the library and find out exactly where Honduras is.

But I knew it was Spanish speaking and I knew, you know, he told me a few things and that I was going to be working in co-ops and which was, I mean, at least it had a little bit to do with my major at the time of business, international business. But so I knew that and I was just, yeah, happy and kind of scared.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So this was in the summer of '69?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, so I had applied and hadn't heard anything, hadn't heard anything. Worried about the draft. So I extended, I took fewer hours my sophomore, my, uh, my senior spring quarter and I went to summer school to keep my 2-A classification. And about halfway through the summer, I was visiting a lady's house over in Seattle. And I got a call from one of my roommates and said, this guy from Washington, D.C., called. And so I asked if I could use the phone, called back, and they were saying, welcome, you've been accepted to Honduras. And honestly, I would have to say, okay, I got to get to the library and find out exactly where Honduras is.

But I knew it was Spanish speaking and I knew, you know, he told me a few things and that I was going to be working in co-ops and which was, I mean, at least it had a little bit to do with my major at the time of business, international business. But so I knew that and I was just, yeah, happy and kind of scared.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So this was in the summer of '69?

[User] This was in the summer of '69, and it was probably mid-July. It would be my guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] Because it was still getting a little bit late in this summer session and I was running out of options.

[Assistant] So you had, you stated already that you had some preference about where to go and you talked a little bit about wanting to, the practical aspect of being in Central America or South America. And so just tell us for the record, the project you were invited to join.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was in the summer of '69, and it was probably mid-July. It would be my guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] Because it was still getting a little bit late in this summer session and I was running out of options.

[Assistant] So you had, you stated already that you had some preference about where to go and you talked a little bit about wanting to, the practical aspect of being in Central America or South America. And so just tell us for the record, the project you were invited to join.

[User] Okay. So I was, I was, uh, and I didn't know anything about it until actually weeks after we got into country, exactly what it would entail. But there was a national federation of credit and savings cooperatives that was, had about 125 units. And we were going to be trained to basically do auditing for the co-ops, but also do some instruction in cooperation and savings and training to the credit committees and some of the operations of the credit union. What I didn't know is, well, I'll talk about that later, but yeah.

[Assistant] So, um. So you knew that you were going to go into the credit when you got the phone call?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because it was still getting a little bit late in this summer session and I was running out of options.

[Assistant] So you had, you stated already that you had some preference about where to go and you talked a little bit about wanting to, the practical aspect of being in Central America or South America. And so just tell us for the record, the project you were invited to join.

[User] Okay. So I was, I was, uh, and I didn't know anything about it until actually weeks after we got into country, exactly what it would entail. But there was a national federation of credit and savings cooperatives that was, had about 125 units. And we were going to be trained to basically do auditing for the co-ops, but also do some instruction in cooperation and savings and training to the credit committees and some of the operations of the credit union. What I didn't know is, well, I'll talk about that later, but yeah.

[Assistant] So, um. So you knew that you were going to go into the credit when you got the phone call?

[User] Yes. Yes, I knew when I got, when I got that, and he explained a little bit about that. It sounded, it sounded great, you know.

[Assistant] Good. And so, um. I just want to make sure we're still going. That's good. Okay. So. So training. We'll talk a little bit about when and where you were trained and prepped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it would give us a little bit of an idea, something to talk with them about. And then actually later it also led me to try planting some of my own crops in my first site.

[Assistant] So, um. So in what extent did the training adequately prepare you for?

[User] Um. Well, even though I didn't have confidence that I could, by the time it came to go into country, I could make my way through different things and ask enough questions that I could function at a basic level. Couldn't understand, not a good language person. So it was a slow process, but it gave me enough of an understanding. And then with the, with the co-op training, you know, we had the, we had our sheets of paper and our information on the, to do the auditing and stuff. We were familiar enough with that to be able to go to a smaller co-op and.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Doing some of that, doing some of that work. And of course, that was an ongoing, ongoing process.

[Assistant] So how did you interact with other volunteers and host country people during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Well, even though I didn't have confidence that I could, by the time it came to go into country, I could make my way through different things and ask enough questions that I could function at a basic level. Couldn't understand, not a good language person. So it was a slow process, but it gave me enough of an understanding. And then with the, with the co-op training, you know, we had the, we had our sheets of paper and our information on the, to do the auditing and stuff. We were familiar enough with that to be able to go to a smaller co-op and.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Doing some of that, doing some of that work. And of course, that was an ongoing, ongoing process.

[Assistant] So how did you interact with other volunteers and host country people during training?

[User] Well, of course, you met tons of people. There were 42 in our group and a lot of it centered around the people that you were in language class with. Number one, because those are the people that you spent most time with. And then the people were going to be in the, working for FACACH [Federacion de Cooperativas de Ahorro y Credito de Honduras], the credit union. Those were other people that you spent more time with. But throughout, I think, you know, at least got to know a lot of different people from everywhere across the United States and in a lot of different walks of life. And, uh, and it was, that was a real bonus. We liked, you know, the trainers were excellent.

[Assistant] Did you have any trainers from FACACH come to camp or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that I, not that I remember. Not that I remember. It was somebody that, uh, I think he actually maybe was from, on the staff in Honduras that came and did some of it. But I don't remember meeting because I, you know, I would have noticed if they got it when we got into country that, oh yeah, you were at our training, because there weren't that many. They didn't have that much staff.

[Assistant] FACACH didn't?

[User] FACACH didn't. So in a sense that we really completed a lot of the, of the staff.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] For the agency.

[Assistant] So the trainers you had were Peace Corps trainers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the agency.

[Assistant] So the trainers you had were Peace Corps trainers?

[User] Yeah, they were. They were Peace Corps trainers.

[Assistant] So, um.

[User] At least as far as I remember.

[Assistant] Yeah. So. So what was your initial introduction to the country like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At least as far as I remember.

[Assistant] Yeah. So. So what was your initial introduction to the country like?

[User] Oh, boy. Well, the initial was the airplane ride from hell coming down the mountain thinking for sure we were going to crash in an old DC-6 that had rickety seats and some of the seats didn't work and the others were okay. And we were so close to the ground the whole way down, I thought, oh my God, if there's an air, you know, air pocket or something, we're going to die. But getting there and getting out and my first impression was like, wow, this is a tropical paradise. There are palm trees, warm air, and it didn't smell that bad. And it was just very interesting. And of course, it was Tegucigalpa. So it was, it was pretty busy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I was just like taking everything, I was taking everything in. And at that point, you know, I was really liked what I, what I saw. It was someplace different and people seem okay and it just said, all right, you know, this is going to, this is going to be okay.

[Assistant] Good, good, good. Okay. And so how did Peace Corps staff play a role in facilitating your entry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was like 78 or 80 or something like that. And, uh, and Paco, my direct, my FACACH director, you know, did the introductions and we talked and all that kind of stuff. And Paco didn't speak any, any Spanish, any English, but he made sure that I was understanding. And there was a, the grandson of this lady became my, my mentor and my good friend. He was a year younger than I was. But she showed me, eventually ended up showing me the ropes and stuff. And here was this one little room and, uh, and a bed and a little table and chair with a, with a window. And, you know, then Paco left and it's like, ahh!

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But it was a beautiful setting, on the other hand. Pine trees.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Yeah, a lot of pine trees. And it was up high and it was at about 4,000 feet.

[Assistant] So what were the specifics of the job to which you were assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
And so by the time I, I also helped to organize and get some money to, uh, to start the. It was about a three-room schoolhouse but had some other modern features like an office for the teacher and that kind of thing.

But we, we only had water 6 months out of the year, but I think the volunteer before me or even before that or somebody had come up and there was a, we had a gravity flow system with one spigot to each house. And that was, that was just during the rainy season. The rest of the time there was a creek fairly nearby that you had to pull your water and stuff, so that it was, there was no. In terms of the school, there's no bathrooms or anything that was going to go in there. But I ended up using the CARE, funds from CARE and from the American embassy to buy supplies to finish the roof in the one room classroom in the mountains, which the, which the dads carried up on their friggin' backs for miles, the metal to be used. And they completed that.

And we had a big ceremony before I left. I was there for, I was there for about 11 months. And then we had the basic, the foundation started on the school.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] In our, in the village. So it was, you know, I had a lot of extra time in terms of not, not having to, a whole bunch of co-ops to.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you want to talk a little bit about your second assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In our, in the village. So it was, you know, I had a lot of extra time in terms of not, not having to, a whole bunch of co-ops to.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did you want to talk a little bit about your second assignment?

[User] Yeah. Okay. So, so for the second year, we, we ended up getting some jeeps from the Panama program.

[Assistant] And why don't you explain that a little bit more, like from Peace Corps Panama?