[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, sometimes it was pretty intense, but usually you had to do your social life with people who were there because that's all who was there. So all your socializing had to be in Spanish, you know. So I did Carnival and then some of the other Peace Corps volunteers were around, but they weren't close. So sometimes they would come in. We’d go in to Santa Cruz and try to find ice cream, which is hard to find. It was hard to find then. But yeah. And one of the reasons we worked so long is that they didn't have electricity in that community. So if we wanted to do surgery, use this big surgery light, we had to wait till they turned the electricity on. So our surgeries were all scheduled for the evening, seven o'clock, is when we would.

[Assistant] So you did clinic stuff during the day and then did surgery at night.

[User] That's right. And if we had an emergency then they'd have to go run down and ask somebody to turn the electricity on. So everybody knew there was something going on.

[Assistant] HIPAA.

[User] Nobody had heard of HIPAA then.

[Assistant] Were you comfortable with your language skills when you first got there? Because I know you said you lived in or you went to Mexico for a summer or something. I know sometimes when you first go someplace, even if you think your skills are pretty good, you realize how you're kind of a fish out of water.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And if we had an emergency then they'd have to go run down and ask somebody to turn the electricity on. So everybody knew there was something going on.

[Assistant] HIPAA.

[User] Nobody had heard of HIPAA then.

[Assistant] Were you comfortable with your language skills when you first got there? Because I know you said you lived in or you went to Mexico for a summer or something. I know sometimes when you first go someplace, even if you think your skills are pretty good, you realize how you're kind of a fish out of water.

[User] I think I did pretty well, but I just had, like, headaches, because you have to listen so hard. You have to listen so closely.

[Assistant] Because you're thinking in English still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody had heard of HIPAA then.

[Assistant] Were you comfortable with your language skills when you first got there? Because I know you said you lived in or you went to Mexico for a summer or something. I know sometimes when you first go someplace, even if you think your skills are pretty good, you realize how you're kind of a fish out of water.

[User] I think I did pretty well, but I just had, like, headaches, because you have to listen so hard. You have to listen so closely.

[Assistant] Because you're thinking in English still.

[User] You're thinking and I remember the first time I dreamed in Spanish. Or I got so comfortable I could go to the movies. And they were all in Spanish, you know, stuff like that.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's interesting because you don't think about that. My son was in Germany for a year and said the same thing. When you start thinking in the language, that's a real shift. That's when you realize you really sort of made that leap. And that's, I would think, would have been a lot harder for some of the other volunteers who didn’t have language skills.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did pretty well, but I just had, like, headaches, because you have to listen so hard. You have to listen so closely.

[Assistant] Because you're thinking in English still.

[User] You're thinking and I remember the first time I dreamed in Spanish. Or I got so comfortable I could go to the movies. And they were all in Spanish, you know, stuff like that.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's interesting because you don't think about that. My son was in Germany for a year and said the same thing. When you start thinking in the language, that's a real shift. That's when you realize you really sort of made that leap. And that's, I would think, would have been a lot harder for some of the other volunteers who didn’t have language skills.

[User] I think it took me probably about three or four months to get pretty comfortable, but it would have taking a lot longer had I now already known Spanish.

[Assistant] And you were there two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're thinking and I remember the first time I dreamed in Spanish. Or I got so comfortable I could go to the movies. And they were all in Spanish, you know, stuff like that.

[Assistant] Yeah. That's interesting because you don't think about that. My son was in Germany for a year and said the same thing. When you start thinking in the language, that's a real shift. That's when you realize you really sort of made that leap. And that's, I would think, would have been a lot harder for some of the other volunteers who didn’t have language skills.

[User] I think it took me probably about three or four months to get pretty comfortable, but it would have taking a lot longer had I now already known Spanish.

[Assistant] And you were there two years?

[User] Two years.

[Assistant] And was that the extent of your Peace Corps service, two years? Or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it took me probably about three or four months to get pretty comfortable, but it would have taking a lot longer had I now already known Spanish.

[Assistant] And you were there two years?

[User] Two years.

[Assistant] And was that the extent of your Peace Corps service, two years? Or did you?

[User] No, now they, you have to do the training and then they add the two years, but then it was all included there. Some people extended, but I had, I was ready to go back to school, so I didn’t stay.

[Assistant] Well then you went back for your master's degree after that. Well, you had delivered babies by then, so you kind of did it backwards, did the clinical part first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two years.

[Assistant] And was that the extent of your Peace Corps service, two years? Or did you?

[User] No, now they, you have to do the training and then they add the two years, but then it was all included there. Some people extended, but I had, I was ready to go back to school, so I didn’t stay.

[Assistant] Well then you went back for your master's degree after that. Well, you had delivered babies by then, so you kind of did it backwards, did the clinical part first.

[User] You know, we did. And they expected the nurses to do minor surgery and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't ever really feel that comfortable with that kind of stuff. But it was a lot of, a lot of negotiating. A lot of, the midwife there really taught me a lot. She really knew the people. She delivered most of the babies and was godmother to most of them.

[Assistant] Was she a midwife in the clinic or a community midwife that people knew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, now they, you have to do the training and then they add the two years, but then it was all included there. Some people extended, but I had, I was ready to go back to school, so I didn’t stay.

[Assistant] Well then you went back for your master's degree after that. Well, you had delivered babies by then, so you kind of did it backwards, did the clinical part first.

[User] You know, we did. And they expected the nurses to do minor surgery and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't ever really feel that comfortable with that kind of stuff. But it was a lot of, a lot of negotiating. A lot of, the midwife there really taught me a lot. She really knew the people. She delivered most of the babies and was godmother to most of them.

[Assistant] Was she a midwife in the clinic or a community midwife that people knew?

[User] She was, her headquarters were in the hospital, but she actually was not hired by the hospital. She was hired through the Ministry of Health, but as part of like the public health department.

[Assistant] She was part of the community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we did. And they expected the nurses to do minor surgery and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't ever really feel that comfortable with that kind of stuff. But it was a lot of, a lot of negotiating. A lot of, the midwife there really taught me a lot. She really knew the people. She delivered most of the babies and was godmother to most of them.

[Assistant] Was she a midwife in the clinic or a community midwife that people knew?

[User] She was, her headquarters were in the hospital, but she actually was not hired by the hospital. She was hired through the Ministry of Health, but as part of like the public health department.

[Assistant] She was part of the community.

[User] Part of the community, yeah.

[Assistant] But what was the worst part of doing this or the worst experience you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was, her headquarters were in the hospital, but she actually was not hired by the hospital. She was hired through the Ministry of Health, but as part of like the public health department.

[Assistant] She was part of the community.

[User] Part of the community, yeah.

[Assistant] But what was the worst part of doing this or the worst experience you had?

[User] Really bad? Well, the worst experience I had is what we had. We did an emergency C-section on this lady who was actually my laundry lady. You know, she used to iron my underwear. No, but she had like, this was her eleventh child. We didn't get her until she'd been in labor for about three or four days.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Part of the community, yeah.

[Assistant] But what was the worst part of doing this or the worst experience you had?

[User] Really bad? Well, the worst experience I had is what we had. We did an emergency C-section on this lady who was actually my laundry lady. You know, she used to iron my underwear. No, but she had like, this was her eleventh child. We didn't get her until she'd been in labor for about three or four days.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] And she just could not. It was a huge kid. She probably was a diabetic by that time or gestational diabetes at least. And so they did this. And then, of course, we did classical C-section because, you know, we didn't have.

[Assistant] What does that mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really bad? Well, the worst experience I had is what we had. We did an emergency C-section on this lady who was actually my laundry lady. You know, she used to iron my underwear. No, but she had like, this was her eleventh child. We didn't get her until she'd been in labor for about three or four days.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] And she just could not. It was a huge kid. She probably was a diabetic by that time or gestational diabetes at least. And so they did this. And then, of course, we did classical C-section because, you know, we didn't have.

[Assistant] What does that mean?

[User] I mean, the big, the straight up, the vertical scar. Because they're easier to get in and get out. And, um, so she died on the table.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, the big, the straight up, the vertical scar. Because they're easier to get in and get out. And, um, so she died on the table.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Wow.

[User] Yeah. I subsequently I really think it was probably an amniotic embolus, which probably wouldn't, we wouldn't have been able to do anything about anyway. But it was, I was devastated, you know.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] But yeah, it was, that was really. Then the other thing that I really didn't like was these little kids that you would maybe we’d deliver and send them home and then they'd come back in six months later, you know, and their big bellies, malnourished and all that. And that was before oral rehydration. So the only thing that you could do was try to get some kind of intravenous or some kind of hydration into them.

[Assistant] And so, again, for the tape, talk about the difference. So if anybody listening doesn’t know about oral rehydration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I subsequently I really think it was probably an amniotic embolus, which probably wouldn't, we wouldn't have been able to do anything about anyway. But it was, I was devastated, you know.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] But yeah, it was, that was really. Then the other thing that I really didn't like was these little kids that you would maybe we’d deliver and send them home and then they'd come back in six months later, you know, and their big bellies, malnourished and all that. And that was before oral rehydration. So the only thing that you could do was try to get some kind of intravenous or some kind of hydration into them.

[Assistant] And so, again, for the tape, talk about the difference. So if anybody listening doesn’t know about oral rehydration.

[User] Well, oral rehydration now, which came out where they were developing it at that time, but not in Bolivia, in other places. So it's a way that they can actually give oral fluids. It has the salt and three fingers of sugar, four fingers of sugar, two fingers of salt, or whatever.

[Assistant] In developing countries.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But yeah, it was, that was really. Then the other thing that I really didn't like was these little kids that you would maybe we’d deliver and send them home and then they'd come back in six months later, you know, and their big bellies, malnourished and all that. And that was before oral rehydration. So the only thing that you could do was try to get some kind of intravenous or some kind of hydration into them.

[Assistant] And so, again, for the tape, talk about the difference. So if anybody listening doesn’t know about oral rehydration.

[User] Well, oral rehydration now, which came out where they were developing it at that time, but not in Bolivia, in other places. So it's a way that they can actually give oral fluids. It has the salt and three fingers of sugar, four fingers of sugar, two fingers of salt, or whatever.

[Assistant] In developing countries.

[User] In developing countries, and it will stay down if you just do it gradually with even a little cup or a spoon. It’s very intensive. But back then we only thought that the only way you could rehydrate these kids would be starting by an IV or something. So we didn't really have the equipment we needed.

[Assistant] Did you feel like the Peace Corps could have prepared you better to handle some of these situations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, oral rehydration now, which came out where they were developing it at that time, but not in Bolivia, in other places. So it's a way that they can actually give oral fluids. It has the salt and three fingers of sugar, four fingers of sugar, two fingers of salt, or whatever.

[Assistant] In developing countries.

[User] In developing countries, and it will stay down if you just do it gradually with even a little cup or a spoon. It’s very intensive. But back then we only thought that the only way you could rehydrate these kids would be starting by an IV or something. So we didn't really have the equipment we needed.

[Assistant] Did you feel like the Peace Corps could have prepared you better to handle some of these situations?

[User] I, yeah, I think. I don't know if there was a better way to do it because they, you know, everybody was. The big thing was the lack of supplies and lack of expertise. I mean, we did what we call hypodermic plyacis where we just put the needle in underneath the skin because we'd have kids that we could not find a vein line even on the head or wherever, you know. And so that's one reason I never did do pediatrics after that, because that was really too hard to take. But anyway. Yeah. So I think one of my comments when I finished was the problem I thought, is that you really need, you can't be a nurse playing Schweitzer in the jungle. Now I wasn't, I was with. You needed to be attached to some organization or university or hospital or whatever. And everything was so and I was attached to a hospital, but there was just no infrastructure.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well it was a new hospital, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In developing countries, and it will stay down if you just do it gradually with even a little cup or a spoon. It’s very intensive. But back then we only thought that the only way you could rehydrate these kids would be starting by an IV or something. So we didn't really have the equipment we needed.

[Assistant] Did you feel like the Peace Corps could have prepared you better to handle some of these situations?

[User] I, yeah, I think. I don't know if there was a better way to do it because they, you know, everybody was. The big thing was the lack of supplies and lack of expertise. I mean, we did what we call hypodermic plyacis where we just put the needle in underneath the skin because we'd have kids that we could not find a vein line even on the head or wherever, you know. And so that's one reason I never did do pediatrics after that, because that was really too hard to take. But anyway. Yeah. So I think one of my comments when I finished was the problem I thought, is that you really need, you can't be a nurse playing Schweitzer in the jungle. Now I wasn't, I was with. You needed to be attached to some organization or university or hospital or whatever. And everything was so and I was attached to a hospital, but there was just no infrastructure.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well it was a new hospital, right?

[User] Yes, it was a new hospital. And what they wanted me to do, ten years later I was maybe prepared to do. I was too new. I was too new now. Probably ten years later, I would have said, are you crazy? I’m not doing this! Because, you know, that's who goes. Usually either people who are older or people who are young and don't know any better.

[Assistant] What was the best thing? Either one experience or overall.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, yeah, I think. I don't know if there was a better way to do it because they, you know, everybody was. The big thing was the lack of supplies and lack of expertise. I mean, we did what we call hypodermic plyacis where we just put the needle in underneath the skin because we'd have kids that we could not find a vein line even on the head or wherever, you know. And so that's one reason I never did do pediatrics after that, because that was really too hard to take. But anyway. Yeah. So I think one of my comments when I finished was the problem I thought, is that you really need, you can't be a nurse playing Schweitzer in the jungle. Now I wasn't, I was with. You needed to be attached to some organization or university or hospital or whatever. And everything was so and I was attached to a hospital, but there was just no infrastructure.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well it was a new hospital, right?

[User] Yes, it was a new hospital. And what they wanted me to do, ten years later I was maybe prepared to do. I was too new. I was too new now. Probably ten years later, I would have said, are you crazy? I’m not doing this! Because, you know, that's who goes. Usually either people who are older or people who are young and don't know any better.

[Assistant] What was the best thing? Either one experience or overall.

[User] I don't know, um. The interesting thing was just how the people took to you. There were a lot of anti-American sentiment, but on an individual basis, it depended what you did. And I didn't have any problem, you know. I had my little ukulele.

[Assistant] Why did you have a ukulele?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was a new hospital. And what they wanted me to do, ten years later I was maybe prepared to do. I was too new. I was too new now. Probably ten years later, I would have said, are you crazy? I’m not doing this! Because, you know, that's who goes. Usually either people who are older or people who are young and don't know any better.

[Assistant] What was the best thing? Either one experience or overall.

[User] I don't know, um. The interesting thing was just how the people took to you. There were a lot of anti-American sentiment, but on an individual basis, it depended what you did. And I didn't have any problem, you know. I had my little ukulele.

[Assistant] Why did you have a ukulele?

[User] Because I played it.

[Assistant] Oh, so you brought that with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know, um. The interesting thing was just how the people took to you. There were a lot of anti-American sentiment, but on an individual basis, it depended what you did. And I didn't have any problem, you know. I had my little ukulele.

[Assistant] Why did you have a ukulele?

[User] Because I played it.

[Assistant] Oh, so you brought that with you?

[User] Yeah. They’d play their guitars and I’d play some of the things I knew, stupid stuff, you know, but it's apparently an icebreaker. I thought one of the really neat experiences I had was when I moved in Santa Cruz, I had my twenty-first birthday there. And at that time, um.

[Assistant] So you must have been 22 when you got out then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I played it.

[Assistant] Oh, so you brought that with you?

[User] Yeah. They’d play their guitars and I’d play some of the things I knew, stupid stuff, you know, but it's apparently an icebreaker. I thought one of the really neat experiences I had was when I moved in Santa Cruz, I had my twenty-first birthday there. And at that time, um.

[Assistant] So you must have been 22 when you got out then?

[User] No, it wasn’t my twenty-first. It was my twenty-fourth.

[Assistant] OK. Because you had a birthday there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They’d play their guitars and I’d play some of the things I knew, stupid stuff, you know, but it's apparently an icebreaker. I thought one of the really neat experiences I had was when I moved in Santa Cruz, I had my twenty-first birthday there. And at that time, um.

[Assistant] So you must have been 22 when you got out then?

[User] No, it wasn’t my twenty-first. It was my twenty-fourth.

[Assistant] OK. Because you had a birthday there.

[User] So they had a big party for me. And even though there had been a death in the family, they had been planning this. And they wouldn't normally do it but they did it and they allowed me to invite all these people I knew. And so it was just, the family was really nice. You know, they really did kind of take you under their wing. And, of course, you know, that's kind of what happened. I think what I did learn, um, I was surprised. I kept counting the days until I was going to be gone. And then all of a sudden it was coming up and I didn’t want to leave.

[Assistant] So initially you were kind of saying, I only have to, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn’t my twenty-first. It was my twenty-fourth.

[Assistant] OK. Because you had a birthday there.

[User] So they had a big party for me. And even though there had been a death in the family, they had been planning this. And they wouldn't normally do it but they did it and they allowed me to invite all these people I knew. And so it was just, the family was really nice. You know, they really did kind of take you under their wing. And, of course, you know, that's kind of what happened. I think what I did learn, um, I was surprised. I kept counting the days until I was going to be gone. And then all of a sudden it was coming up and I didn’t want to leave.

[Assistant] So initially you were kind of saying, I only have to, you know.

[User] I've only got however many.

[Assistant] Six hundred and 66 days or whatever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they had a big party for me. And even though there had been a death in the family, they had been planning this. And they wouldn't normally do it but they did it and they allowed me to invite all these people I knew. And so it was just, the family was really nice. You know, they really did kind of take you under their wing. And, of course, you know, that's kind of what happened. I think what I did learn, um, I was surprised. I kept counting the days until I was going to be gone. And then all of a sudden it was coming up and I didn’t want to leave.

[Assistant] So initially you were kind of saying, I only have to, you know.

[User] I've only got however many.

[Assistant] Six hundred and 66 days or whatever.

[User] Yeah. Really. Because, you know, you are in this culture, in this culture shock. And then the irony, even though they talked about it, you knew it was going to happen. You can see it kind of happening and there doesn’t seem to be a lot you could do about it.

[Assistant] Right. You have to work through it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've only got however many.

[Assistant] Six hundred and 66 days or whatever.

[User] Yeah. Really. Because, you know, you are in this culture, in this culture shock. And then the irony, even though they talked about it, you knew it was going to happen. You can see it kind of happening and there doesn’t seem to be a lot you could do about it.

[Assistant] Right. You have to work through it.

[User] Yeah. And but fortunately, I thought the carnivals that they had. My first experience with the carnival, Bolivian carnival in Santa Cruz, that was 11 days and nights.

[Assistant] Sort of like Mardi Gras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Really. Because, you know, you are in this culture, in this culture shock. And then the irony, even though they talked about it, you knew it was going to happen. You can see it kind of happening and there doesn’t seem to be a lot you could do about it.

[Assistant] Right. You have to work through it.

[User] Yeah. And but fortunately, I thought the carnivals that they had. My first experience with the carnival, Bolivian carnival in Santa Cruz, that was 11 days and nights.

[Assistant] Sort of like Mardi Gras?

[User] Yeah, it’s like Mardi Gras. It's like Brazil. They have the Carnival.

[Assistant] Yeah, I've heard of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And but fortunately, I thought the carnivals that they had. My first experience with the carnival, Bolivian carnival in Santa Cruz, that was 11 days and nights.

[Assistant] Sort of like Mardi Gras?

[User] Yeah, it’s like Mardi Gras. It's like Brazil. They have the Carnival.

[Assistant] Yeah, I've heard of it.

[User] And they dance in the streets in the day and then they dance at night and, you know. And the stores practically, everything closed down because nobody did anything during that. But I think they reduced it now so it's not nearly as long, you know, might be three or four days or something like that. But then it was 11 days and nights.

[Assistant] Wow. So I think we’ve addressed a lot of these and I'll go back. But I want to get this on the tape for sure. Overall evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, which were to provide technical assistance where requested, to promote better understanding of the U.S., to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So based on your service, did you feel like you were able to do those three things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it’s like Mardi Gras. It's like Brazil. They have the Carnival.

[Assistant] Yeah, I've heard of it.

[User] And they dance in the streets in the day and then they dance at night and, you know. And the stores practically, everything closed down because nobody did anything during that. But I think they reduced it now so it's not nearly as long, you know, might be three or four days or something like that. But then it was 11 days and nights.

[Assistant] Wow. So I think we’ve addressed a lot of these and I'll go back. But I want to get this on the tape for sure. Overall evaluate your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps, which were to provide technical assistance where requested, to promote better understanding of the U.S., to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So based on your service, did you feel like you were able to do those three things?

[User] To some extent. I did train these people, these young girls, to be sort of paramedical, to help with surgery. And of course, the big deal was understanding sterile technique. Because if you don't understand the whole germs theory, you know, you just can't understand. So I had to teach it like a ritual. So this is a ceremony. This is how you do it. I didn't say that’s a ceremony.

[Assistant] But that's really interesting because you got the culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, but because all they had seen before was people from like the oil drilling people or some of the real big diplomatic type people. So but I think some of those goals at that time were pretty hard to attain by, you know, by an individual.

[Assistant] Certainly by an individual, right. How does it change your life, looking back on it? What do you think? How did it change your life? And how did it maybe influence your career?

[User] I probably wouldn't have been an anthropologist. I wouldn’t have gone back. I wouldn't have probably. I went into public health. You know, I studied community health at University of California.

[Assistant] Oh, you did? Where did you do your women's health, here at UF [University of Florida]? Or did you do the women’s health there?

[User] I did. Part of what I did there was well baby clinics and maternity clinics.

[Assistant] I knew you were a public health nurse. I didn't realize you trained in public health.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I probably wouldn't have been an anthropologist. I wouldn’t have gone back. I wouldn't have probably. I went into public health. You know, I studied community health at University of California.

[Assistant] Oh, you did? Where did you do your women's health, here at UF [University of Florida]? Or did you do the women’s health there?

[User] I did. Part of what I did there was well baby clinics and maternity clinics.

[Assistant] I knew you were a public health nurse. I didn't realize you trained in public health.

[User] The master’s says it was in community health.

[Assistant] Oh, I didn't know that. But you're a women's health nurse practitioner? So where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Part of what I did there was well baby clinics and maternity clinics.

[Assistant] I knew you were a public health nurse. I didn't realize you trained in public health.

[User] The master’s says it was in community health.

[Assistant] Oh, I didn't know that. But you're a women's health nurse practitioner? So where?

[User] Yeah, but I had to piece that together, because really weren’t many programs. But they were doing prenatal clinics, nurse run prenatal clinics and nurse run well baby clinics in California when I came back. And of course they gave me East San Jose, which was all Spanish speaking. So yes, I think it really changed the trajectory quite a bit, you know, and then subsequently I did a lot of other international stuff.

[Assistant] Do you think you would have gotten a Ph.D. in something else or you might have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The master’s says it was in community health.

[Assistant] Oh, I didn't know that. But you're a women's health nurse practitioner? So where?

[User] Yeah, but I had to piece that together, because really weren’t many programs. But they were doing prenatal clinics, nurse run prenatal clinics and nurse run well baby clinics in California when I came back. And of course they gave me East San Jose, which was all Spanish speaking. So yes, I think it really changed the trajectory quite a bit, you know, and then subsequently I did a lot of other international stuff.

[Assistant] Do you think you would have gotten a Ph.D. in something else or you might have?

[User] I think I would have gotten a Ph.D. and I might have gotten that even in anthropology, because I was kind of looking at that when I got out, before I graduated at University of Utah. But I don't know if I would have done the international piece. And I don't know. It's hard to say, but I think it definitely changed what I.

[Assistant] Well, I can't imagine that it wouldn't have had a huge impact on you. I'm just looking to see if there's anything else that I didn't do. It says in first year end of tour, notable events, reflections, joys and woes, unexpected events, relationships, health problems. So were there notable events besides the one we've already talked about in that first year? And then in the second year, the one thing you did say was that transition from counting the days to go home to not wanting to leave. When did that occur about that, was that near the end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I had to piece that together, because really weren’t many programs. But they were doing prenatal clinics, nurse run prenatal clinics and nurse run well baby clinics in California when I came back. And of course they gave me East San Jose, which was all Spanish speaking. So yes, I think it really changed the trajectory quite a bit, you know, and then subsequently I did a lot of other international stuff.

[Assistant] Do you think you would have gotten a Ph.D. in something else or you might have?

[User] I think I would have gotten a Ph.D. and I might have gotten that even in anthropology, because I was kind of looking at that when I got out, before I graduated at University of Utah. But I don't know if I would have done the international piece. And I don't know. It's hard to say, but I think it definitely changed what I.

[Assistant] Well, I can't imagine that it wouldn't have had a huge impact on you. I'm just looking to see if there's anything else that I didn't do. It says in first year end of tour, notable events, reflections, joys and woes, unexpected events, relationships, health problems. So were there notable events besides the one we've already talked about in that first year? And then in the second year, the one thing you did say was that transition from counting the days to go home to not wanting to leave. When did that occur about that, was that near the end?

[User] And yeah, you just didn't realize it crept up on you. But one notable thing happened at the end is that I was all prepared to go and the plane never left Santa Cruz on time. And this time they said, just call, don't go out there, just call. Well, I got out there and they wouldn't let me get on because I wasn't there an hour.

[Assistant] Because you were late?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I would have gotten a Ph.D. and I might have gotten that even in anthropology, because I was kind of looking at that when I got out, before I graduated at University of Utah. But I don't know if I would have done the international piece. And I don't know. It's hard to say, but I think it definitely changed what I.

[Assistant] Well, I can't imagine that it wouldn't have had a huge impact on you. I'm just looking to see if there's anything else that I didn't do. It says in first year end of tour, notable events, reflections, joys and woes, unexpected events, relationships, health problems. So were there notable events besides the one we've already talked about in that first year? And then in the second year, the one thing you did say was that transition from counting the days to go home to not wanting to leave. When did that occur about that, was that near the end?

[User] And yeah, you just didn't realize it crept up on you. But one notable thing happened at the end is that I was all prepared to go and the plane never left Santa Cruz on time. And this time they said, just call, don't go out there, just call. Well, I got out there and they wouldn't let me get on because I wasn't there an hour.

[Assistant] Because you were late?

[User] It hadn’t left and it didn't leave for another 30 or 40 minutes, but they wouldn't let me get on, which meant they probably sold my seat to somebody else. But so I missed all my flights.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yeah, you just didn't realize it crept up on you. But one notable thing happened at the end is that I was all prepared to go and the plane never left Santa Cruz on time. And this time they said, just call, don't go out there, just call. Well, I got out there and they wouldn't let me get on because I wasn't there an hour.

[Assistant] Because you were late?

[User] It hadn’t left and it didn't leave for another 30 or 40 minutes, but they wouldn't let me get on, which meant they probably sold my seat to somebody else. But so I missed all my flights.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] So I had to stay extra days in Lima, Peru, which I wasn't planning on. And then when I finally got to Miami, I was going to go to the World's Fair because it was 1964 and it was up in New York or somewhere up there. And I got to Miami and I said, eh, I don't think so. So I changed my flight and I went by way of Las Vegas to Salt Lake City. And then I took the train home.

[Assistant] And then went home. Did you stay at home for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It hadn’t left and it didn't leave for another 30 or 40 minutes, but they wouldn't let me get on, which meant they probably sold my seat to somebody else. But so I missed all my flights.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] So I had to stay extra days in Lima, Peru, which I wasn't planning on. And then when I finally got to Miami, I was going to go to the World's Fair because it was 1964 and it was up in New York or somewhere up there. And I got to Miami and I said, eh, I don't think so. So I changed my flight and I went by way of Las Vegas to Salt Lake City. And then I took the train home.

[Assistant] And then went home. Did you stay at home for a while?

[User] And I couldn’t stay home very long because I had to go to summer school at Berkeley, the University of California Berkeley.

[Assistant] So you'd already applied while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I had to stay extra days in Lima, Peru, which I wasn't planning on. And then when I finally got to Miami, I was going to go to the World's Fair because it was 1964 and it was up in New York or somewhere up there. And I got to Miami and I said, eh, I don't think so. So I changed my flight and I went by way of Las Vegas to Salt Lake City. And then I took the train home.

[Assistant] And then went home. Did you stay at home for a while?

[User] And I couldn’t stay home very long because I had to go to summer school at Berkeley, the University of California Berkeley.

[Assistant] So you'd already applied while you were there?

[User] I applied and they told me I could have, you know, an assistantship because they were trying to, you know, they were really interested in some of these people coming out of the Peace Corps at that time.

[Assistant] Wow. That's really fascinating. Are there any other things that you can think of that we didn't cover?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I applied and they told me I could have, you know, an assistantship because they were trying to, you know, they were really interested in some of these people coming out of the Peace Corps at that time.

[Assistant] Wow. That's really fascinating. Are there any other things that you can think of that we didn't cover?

[User] One of the interesting things when I was in Santa Cruz was the fact that you could go out in the boonies to the Okinawan colony or one of these other Chinese colonies.

[Assistant] Chinese?

[User] Well, they had Chinese, they had Okinawans. Because they came in and they settled and they raised all these vegetables. So you could go out the middle of the boonies and you could go to a restaurant that had excellent Oriental food.

[Assistant] Interesting. That's terrific.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the interesting things when I was in Santa Cruz was the fact that you could go out in the boonies to the Okinawan colony or one of these other Chinese colonies.

[Assistant] Chinese?

[User] Well, they had Chinese, they had Okinawans. Because they came in and they settled and they raised all these vegetables. So you could go out the middle of the boonies and you could go to a restaurant that had excellent Oriental food.

[Assistant] Interesting. That's terrific.

[User] I did go over one Christmas to Argentina and Uruguay because I went with one of the ladies I knew who lived in Argentina. And then I just went on over to Uruguay because I wanted to look around there.

[Assistant] Were you able to come home at all during the two years? You stayed down there the whole time? Wow, that is an immersion experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they had Chinese, they had Okinawans. Because they came in and they settled and they raised all these vegetables. So you could go out the middle of the boonies and you could go to a restaurant that had excellent Oriental food.

[Assistant] Interesting. That's terrific.

[User] I did go over one Christmas to Argentina and Uruguay because I went with one of the ladies I knew who lived in Argentina. And then I just went on over to Uruguay because I wanted to look around there.

[Assistant] Were you able to come home at all during the two years? You stayed down there the whole time? Wow, that is an immersion experience.

[User] Pretty much. And the interesting thing was I had got a bunch of clothes made because you’d get them made pretty cheap. But then I got to San Francisco and I realized that my tastes, because they were influenced by Bolivia, it was so garish you could not wear these shiny. I mean, nice fabrics. But they're way too lavish for San Francisco at the time. And the other thing I didn't realize, the reverse culture shock was very difficult. I actually felt very insecure if I didn't have a chaperone.

[Assistant] Oh that’s interesting too. I never thought about that. But there was a reversal.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought maybe it was, I thought maybe it was just me, you know, but because it was like she was deliberately not, just didn't seem to get what. Because I was doing some alternative kinds of things, because I was working with the Hispanic population, Mexican population, and it didn't, um.

[Assistant] That’s the definition of cultural competence though, when you know how to do that, I mean.

[User] Well, I mean, what they were concerned about me going there and having coffee and talking to people after hours. Well, how else are you going to talk to the dad? And if you go to somebody's house, they offer you things like that. If I had not had coffee or whatever, they would have not been as, you know, compliant and we wouldn't have been able to communicate as well. And I did get him there.

[Assistant] I mean, that's such a public health concept that you have to fit into their realm of what’s acceptable.

[User] I was taken aback because I was expecting a little bit more understanding.

[Assistant] I would have expected that too, especially from that university.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I mean, what they were concerned about me going there and having coffee and talking to people after hours. Well, how else are you going to talk to the dad? And if you go to somebody's house, they offer you things like that. If I had not had coffee or whatever, they would have not been as, you know, compliant and we wouldn't have been able to communicate as well. And I did get him there.

[Assistant] I mean, that's such a public health concept that you have to fit into their realm of what’s acceptable.

[User] I was taken aback because I was expecting a little bit more understanding.

[Assistant] I would have expected that too, especially from that university.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, it was different. I don't know. But in all and all, I wouldn’t trade the experience of the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I mean, I always thought it would be a neat experience. I never had the guts. I think you have to be somebody who is a risk-taker to do that. And it sounds like you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was taken aback because I was expecting a little bit more understanding.

[Assistant] I would have expected that too, especially from that university.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, it was different. I don't know. But in all and all, I wouldn’t trade the experience of the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I mean, I always thought it would be a neat experience. I never had the guts. I think you have to be somebody who is a risk-taker to do that. And it sounds like you were.

[User] Yes, I guess I probably still am a risk-taker to a certain extent. But I really wouldn’t change it. And it's interesting because when I get together with my Peace Corps volunteer friends, you know, we did last year. I think we had 20 some.

[Assistant] Of the 30? Wow. That's pretty amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a CapCom?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Well, I think when they began what we called integrated simulation, we spent as much time, maybe more time than the crew, supporting the crew. In that I mean that we would arrive an hour before the simulation would begin, ensure that all the people were there. We’d go through the scripts. In some cases we’d go through the scripts to see what specifically—what this particular mission was, and prepare ourselves such that when the crew got in the simulator, we would be in place and ready to support.\n\n Now, the integrated simulations were probably a third of the total simulation time that the crews spent in preparation. I’m not sure about that number, but that sounds about right. But it was not a single crew, and so there would be several crews in preparation. So the mission control team was there for quite a long time, because they would just move from crew to crew to crew. Eventually you would know that you were working on a specific crew, and you would devote most of your time in preparation of that particular crew. I remember spending long hours in mission control, but coming out each time just feeling refreshed. It was very exciting. It was very exciting to do it, working with the teams and working with the Flight Directors.

[Assistant] What shifts did you typically work on while you were CapCom?

[User] On the first one I was ascent or entry; I did not do on-orbit. Then I believe that after that, I was the Lead CapCom, so I was responsible for all phases of flight, but still would generally only work the ascent and entry.

[Assistant] Did you help train anyone while you were serving as the Lead CapCom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. I think in many cases it is. Let me say—I think I will qualify it by saying that sometimes astronauts believe that they are bulletproof. What I found was that astronauts and their families will accept a much higher level of risk than a normal person will, and even when they relax, they are still at a higher level of risk acceptance that the normal person might consider almost excessive. So when an astronaut leaves the astronaut program, in one way or another, it takes a while to jack them down, because they will tend to make a decision based on their level of risk acceptance that they did in the office, and that’s not necessarily what we want. We need a kind of a calmer look, a more rational look at some of the decisions that we’re making.\n\n But as I look at the astronauts who are at NASA Headquarters and those who are Center Directors, like Roy [D.] Bridges [Jr.], each of them has come down and can look in a balanced way at the risk versus the benefit, and I am very pleased with the decision-making that’s going on right now.

[Assistant]
Okay. Let’s stop and I’ll put in the new tape.\n\n [Tape change]

I was looking on your NASA bio sheet, and it indicated that you were the Chief of Astronaut Training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about that and what that entailed?

[User] Yes, I was primarily the coordinator of the training that all astronauts needed before they could fly, and so I had a syllabus that described the courses. I knew the availability of the training facilities or devices, and would so schedule the astronauts into those facilities, with instructors as necessary. I think it was not a difficult role, and as such, I kept a record of the progress and would certify that training had been completed and that it had been satisfactorily completed. Though I did not have a signature that said, “And they are certified to fly,” the records that I kept would so demonstrate that.

[Assistant] Did you work specifically with the classes that came through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about that and what that entailed?

[User] Yes, I was primarily the coordinator of the training that all astronauts needed before they could fly, and so I had a syllabus that described the courses. I knew the availability of the training facilities or devices, and would so schedule the astronauts into those facilities, with instructors as necessary. I think it was not a difficult role, and as such, I kept a record of the progress and would certify that training had been completed and that it had been satisfactorily completed. Though I did not have a signature that said, “And they are certified to fly,” the records that I kept would so demonstrate that.

[Assistant] Did you work specifically with the classes that came through?

[User] Yes, when a new class would come in, we would just start again with “This is a football.” [Laughs] And work the welcoming, several months of teaching people the NASA acronyms, and arranging for trips for the new astronauts to see the facilities in NASA. But I was primarily responsible for the academic training and the simulation training.

[Assistant] So did you work in conjunction with those various offices? When a new class would come through, say, they needed training on the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator], or they needed to work SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was primarily the coordinator of the training that all astronauts needed before they could fly, and so I had a syllabus that described the courses. I knew the availability of the training facilities or devices, and would so schedule the astronauts into those facilities, with instructors as necessary. I think it was not a difficult role, and as such, I kept a record of the progress and would certify that training had been completed and that it had been satisfactorily completed. Though I did not have a signature that said, “And they are certified to fly,” the records that I kept would so demonstrate that.

[Assistant] Did you work specifically with the classes that came through?

[User] Yes, when a new class would come in, we would just start again with “This is a football.” [Laughs] And work the welcoming, several months of teaching people the NASA acronyms, and arranging for trips for the new astronauts to see the facilities in NASA. But I was primarily responsible for the academic training and the simulation training.

[Assistant] So did you work in conjunction with those various offices? When a new class would come through, say, they needed training on the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator], or they needed to work SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory]?

[User] I didn’t do the technical. I didn’t do the technical training, which the SAIL would have been. I did the straight simulation and academic training, so these were classes that were taught. These were simulations that were single-system. They started with single-system trainers, and then they went to multisystem trainers, and then they would graduate eventually into running in the Shuttle Mission Simulator in the fixed base over there.\n\n But I knew that they had to get from this point to this point, and they had these classes and courses and things they had to do, and all I did was schedule them and assure that they got there and that the training for that particular activity was successfully completed.

[Assistant] Your bio sheet also indicates that served as a member of the Orbiter Configuration Board.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, when a new class would come in, we would just start again with “This is a football.” [Laughs] And work the welcoming, several months of teaching people the NASA acronyms, and arranging for trips for the new astronauts to see the facilities in NASA. But I was primarily responsible for the academic training and the simulation training.

[Assistant] So did you work in conjunction with those various offices? When a new class would come through, say, they needed training on the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator], or they needed to work SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory]?

[User] I didn’t do the technical. I didn’t do the technical training, which the SAIL would have been. I did the straight simulation and academic training, so these were classes that were taught. These were simulations that were single-system. They started with single-system trainers, and then they went to multisystem trainers, and then they would graduate eventually into running in the Shuttle Mission Simulator in the fixed base over there.\n\n But I knew that they had to get from this point to this point, and they had these classes and courses and things they had to do, and all I did was schedule them and assure that they got there and that the training for that particular activity was successfully completed.

[Assistant] Your bio sheet also indicates that served as a member of the Orbiter Configuration Board.

[User] Yes, the PRCB [Program Requirements Control Board]. That was a decision-making board run by the Program Manager, and on the board there were representatives from the multiple disciplines, and I was the astronaut representative. So any issue that came up that needed a decision would pass through this board, and so I was just the voting member from the Astronaut Office. I guess I did that for a year or maybe longer than that. It was an exciting view, from the program management point of view, of the entire system, so I saw all aspects of the mission preparation and those things that needed to be prepared for, for a down-the-line mission. It was a pretty exciting time. I really enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you served on that board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t do the technical. I didn’t do the technical training, which the SAIL would have been. I did the straight simulation and academic training, so these were classes that were taught. These were simulations that were single-system. They started with single-system trainers, and then they went to multisystem trainers, and then they would graduate eventually into running in the Shuttle Mission Simulator in the fixed base over there.\n\n But I knew that they had to get from this point to this point, and they had these classes and courses and things they had to do, and all I did was schedule them and assure that they got there and that the training for that particular activity was successfully completed.

[Assistant] Your bio sheet also indicates that served as a member of the Orbiter Configuration Board.

[User] Yes, the PRCB [Program Requirements Control Board]. That was a decision-making board run by the Program Manager, and on the board there were representatives from the multiple disciplines, and I was the astronaut representative. So any issue that came up that needed a decision would pass through this board, and so I was just the voting member from the Astronaut Office. I guess I did that for a year or maybe longer than that. It was an exciting view, from the program management point of view, of the entire system, so I saw all aspects of the mission preparation and those things that needed to be prepared for, for a down-the-line mission. It was a pretty exciting time. I really enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you served on that board?

[User] No. [Laughter] Let me see. I think it—

[Assistant] I’m not very good with dates, either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the PRCB [Program Requirements Control Board]. That was a decision-making board run by the Program Manager, and on the board there were representatives from the multiple disciplines, and I was the astronaut representative. So any issue that came up that needed a decision would pass through this board, and so I was just the voting member from the Astronaut Office. I guess I did that for a year or maybe longer than that. It was an exciting view, from the program management point of view, of the entire system, so I saw all aspects of the mission preparation and those things that needed to be prepared for, for a down-the-line mission. It was a pretty exciting time. I really enjoyed that.

[Assistant] Do you remember when you served on that board?

[User] No. [Laughter] Let me see. I think it—

[Assistant] I’m not very good with dates, either.

[User] I think it preceded Challenger, but I’m not certain; could have been after that.

[Assistant] There was another board you served on, which was the Shuttle Program Board.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. [Laughter] Let me see. I think it—

[Assistant] I’m not very good with dates, either.

[User] I think it preceded Challenger, but I’m not certain; could have been after that.

[Assistant] There was another board you served on, which was the Shuttle Program Board.

[User] Could be; I can’t recall.

[Assistant] Well, if you’d like, we can start talking about your next mission and then pick it up next time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it preceded Challenger, but I’m not certain; could have been after that.

[Assistant] There was another board you served on, which was the Shuttle Program Board.

[User] Could be; I can’t recall.

[Assistant] Well, if you’d like, we can start talking about your next mission and then pick it up next time.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember where you were when you found out that you were going to be commanding your first mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Could be; I can’t recall.

[Assistant] Well, if you’d like, we can start talking about your next mission and then pick it up next time.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you remember where you were when you found out that you were going to be commanding your first mission?

[User] I had been at Kennedy, and I’d come in late in the evening. When I arrived back at Aircraft Ops [Operations], in my little bin that I put my helmet in, there was a little message that said, “Call Don [Donald R.] Puddy,” who was the Chief of Flight Crew Operations at that time. And I did, and he so informed me that I was going to be—first of all, he said, “You’re going to be on the mission,” and then he said, “And you’re going to command it,” so I was excited. So, I mean, it was very late at night, and I can remember talking to Puddy and having him tell me that.\n\n I went home, and I don’t believe that I told my wife immediately. You know, I wanted to really milk it a little bit, and I did. [Laughs] And I told her, and then the next day went in and assembled the crew and kind of gave them the vision according to Fred.\n\n We created an amazing—it was an amazing crew. I had a pilot, Dave [S. David] Griggs, Navy pilot, who unfortunately was killed in an airplane accident, so I had the rare chance to actually pick a pilot, and I chose John [E.] Blaha as my pilot. So I had “Sonny” [Manley L.] Carter [Jr.] and Kathy [Kathryn C.] Thornton and—Sonny and Kathy and Blaha, and I’ll think of the—

[Assistant] [F.] Story Musgrave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had not even considered it. Somebody told me that after the fact. [Laughs]

[Assistant] After the flight?

[User] Yes, I mean after the fact. I mean, it wasn’t something that was vaguely important to me. It was just not important to me. Somebody later told me, “You know, you were the first pilot,” and then, “Oh, by the way, you were the first commander.”\n\n And it was like, “Yeah, I guess that’s true,” and that’s as far as it went. I have never, never said it, but people always tell me. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So there wasn’t any sort of media interest in this sort of first for the Shuttle?

[User] I don’t recall. I can go back and look at a lot of the news articles, but I don’t recall it being in there, and if it was, I probably didn’t pay any attention to it.

[Assistant] You were just so focused on the mission at hand.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t recall. I can go back and look at a lot of the news articles, but I don’t recall it being in there, and if it was, I probably didn’t pay any attention to it.

[Assistant] You were just so focused on the mission at hand.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely. Yes. All of us were so focused on achieving the objectives of the mission and returning safely that I don’t think we even entered into these little parochial issues that may have been important to some people. It just wasn’t important to me.\n\n We had Kathy Thornton with us, and I absolutely insisted that she be the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] person, over great protest, and I just insisted. So I don’t know if Kathy even concerned herself with, “I’m a woman and I’m going to do an EVA.” It was just not a big deal. On the outside they were concerned about it, but inside, Kathy, K.T., was the appropriate person to do it, so we just did it. Then she subsequently did another EVA. And I don’t think—if we had not insisted, probably a person of her size would never have done something like this. Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan had done it, but Kathy was a larger woman and could fit into the suits that we have. But Kathy Thornton was not, so we had to really force the issue.\n\n But it was not an issue that we want Kathy to do this because she’s a woman; it was we wanted Kathy to do it because she was the appropriate one to do it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That makes sense.

[User] Yes. I mean, it seemed to. [Laughs] So we had Kathy and Sonny doing that.

[Assistant] I want to thank you for your time today. I really appreciate your patience, first of all—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely. Yes. All of us were so focused on achieving the objectives of the mission and returning safely that I don’t think we even entered into these little parochial issues that may have been important to some people. It just wasn’t important to me.\n\n We had Kathy Thornton with us, and I absolutely insisted that she be the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] person, over great protest, and I just insisted. So I don’t know if Kathy even concerned herself with, “I’m a woman and I’m going to do an EVA.” It was just not a big deal. On the outside they were concerned about it, but inside, Kathy, K.T., was the appropriate person to do it, so we just did it. Then she subsequently did another EVA. And I don’t think—if we had not insisted, probably a person of her size would never have done something like this. Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan had done it, but Kathy was a larger woman and could fit into the suits that we have. But Kathy Thornton was not, so we had to really force the issue.\n\n But it was not an issue that we want Kathy to do this because she’s a woman; it was we wanted Kathy to do it because she was the appropriate one to do it. [Laughs]

[Assistant] That makes sense.

[User] Yes. I mean, it seemed to. [Laughs] So we had Kathy and Sonny doing that.

[Assistant] I want to thank you for your time today. I really appreciate your patience, first of all—

[User] Oh, not a problem.

[Assistant] —especially with the equipment, and taking the time to spend with me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you for making room, thank you for moving back your other things. This is great.

[Assistant] No, thank you for making room for us.

[User] Yes. We got through [Space Shuttle STS-51L] Challenger.

[Assistant] We did.

[User] We got through Challenger.

[Assistant] Because we talked about the redesigned SRB [solid rocket booster] and your role in that, I wanted to ask you about Max Q [astronaut band]. I thought that was a unique thing to happen after Challenger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember, yes. I hate to think what my flight plan that flew on Challenger and my flight plan that flew on Columbia—and has all my notes from six days and eight days of space—would go for on eBay or someplace like that. I bet those would be quite valuable.

[Assistant] Oh, a lot of cash. Very, very valuable.

[User] I hope NASA doesn’t ever come back to me and say, “We want them back.” I don’t know where they are. I think I’ve lost them all. I don’t know what happened to it in all the moves that we did subsequently, so I don’t know where they are now.\n\n Those are family treasures, I think; [that] is what I think they are. I can’t picture ever selling things. I will admit I have taken checklist pages out of some of those checklists—like one of the small checklists—and had it framed with a bunch of photographs and things from the mission, and given those as gifts. I’ve done probably six or seven of those.\n\n I have also, for good causes had those framed, like for Space Camp, for them to auction off. They bring a fair amount of money, and it’s to support scholarships to Space Camp, which helps kids. I have not sold anything. I’ve given some things away but not very many. But anyway, that’s the story on checklists and things that we weren’t supposed to be allowed to keep.

[Assistant] I hadn’t heard that before.

[User] I have cue cards. I have my launch cue cards, because they weren’t going to get used again. They said “STS-11” on them. Oh yes, because our name changed to 41B. But they didn’t go back and change all of our checklists, so they said STS-11, which theoretically never existed, because it became 41B. I’m sure those would be some real collector things, but I’m not going to sell them.

[Assistant] Anything that’s flown in space is a real collector’s item.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope NASA doesn’t ever come back to me and say, “We want them back.” I don’t know where they are. I think I’ve lost them all. I don’t know what happened to it in all the moves that we did subsequently, so I don’t know where they are now.\n\n Those are family treasures, I think; [that] is what I think they are. I can’t picture ever selling things. I will admit I have taken checklist pages out of some of those checklists—like one of the small checklists—and had it framed with a bunch of photographs and things from the mission, and given those as gifts. I’ve done probably six or seven of those.\n\n I have also, for good causes had those framed, like for Space Camp, for them to auction off. They bring a fair amount of money, and it’s to support scholarships to Space Camp, which helps kids. I have not sold anything. I’ve given some things away but not very many. But anyway, that’s the story on checklists and things that we weren’t supposed to be allowed to keep.

[Assistant] I hadn’t heard that before.

[User] I have cue cards. I have my launch cue cards, because they weren’t going to get used again. They said “STS-11” on them. Oh yes, because our name changed to 41B. But they didn’t go back and change all of our checklists, so they said STS-11, which theoretically never existed, because it became 41B. I’m sure those would be some real collector things, but I’m not going to sell them.

[Assistant] Anything that’s flown in space is a real collector’s item.

[User] Anything else you wanted to make note of, asking about 27?

[Assistant] We haven’t talked about the mission, but the only other thought was you mentioned training, but we didn’t talk about the changes, mainly the bailout system, the launch/entry suit. Did that complicate your training and things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they didn’t want us to stand out, once again.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] The other place we went was we went to CIA [Central Intelligence Agency] Headquarters [Langley, Virginia]. When we were finally allowed to have possession of our medals.

[Assistant] I wondered about that. Do you finally have that?

[User] They pointed out that we are to point out any time we talk about it this was not a CIA mission, this was a DOD mission. The CIA can award a medal that the DOD doesn’t have, and they wanted us to have that very special medal. It was called the National Intelligence Achievement Medal. So I’ve tried to tell my wife I therefore must have achieved intelligence because this is the National Intelligence Achievement Medal. She of course says, “No, you haven’t, Robert.”\n\n Judge William [H.] Webster was the Director of the CIA then, and we had, oh, just a delightful time in their big conference room with them. We had coffee and doughnuts in there; they took a bunch of photos and things. Then Mullane tells the story in his book as well. They pinned the medal on us on our [coats and ties], and that’s in the photos as well. I should send you some of those, too.

[Assistant] Those have been declassified as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody always wants more time in space, not less time in space. They budget enough consumables for mission duration plus two. So they design in two waveoff days, two extra days.\n\n We pushed that on 61C because we wound up going into the third day. However, we launched, and we were originally scheduled to be five days. They shortened us to four days, and then with the waveoffs that we got, we wound up extending into six days. So we actually wound up pushing the three-day thing, and that’s what led to the song that we sang for Mission Control.

[Assistant] Which I still have. I remember you sent that to me.

[User] Oh, did I?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] On tape? Or how did I send?

[Assistant] Maybe you sent an MP3 [digital audio file]. I remember listening to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, did I?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] On tape? Or how did I send?

[Assistant] Maybe you sent an MP3 [digital audio file]. I remember listening to it.

[User] Yes, I have it on my [Apple] iPad.

[Assistant] Maybe that was it. Maybe you just played it for me at the end of our last session.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On tape? Or how did I send?

[Assistant] Maybe you sent an MP3 [digital audio file]. I remember listening to it.

[User] Yes, I have it on my [Apple] iPad.

[Assistant] Maybe that was it. Maybe you just played it for me at the end of our last session.

[User] Yes, I actually have it digitally. [U.S. Congressman] Bill Nelson sent us a longer version of it. What I have starts with [CapCom] Shannon [W.] Lucid saying, “Well, if you don’t have anything else, we’ll sign off for the night.”\n\n I said, “Well, we do have just one more thing.”\n\n She said, “Well, we’re standing by.”\n\n Then we sang the song. Bill Nelson had a little bit longer one that started off a little before it, and then it had a little bit after it as well. I don’t have that on my iPad. I have that on my computer at home. Anyway, that was the song for the extra days.\n\n The food that they stow is just benchmarked for mission duration, so if you slide into a waveoff day or two waveoff days, you are expected just to work out of the pantry where they store extra food. And also go back through all the meals, because not everybody always ate everything that was on their list. You just make do for the extra day or two beyond mission duration.

[Assistant] Did you guys have different food because you had a Japanese astronaut on board? Did he bring up some delicacies from his country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was certainly a center of attention everywhere we went. I’m trying to remember if we went—I’m not sure we went back to the Cape after the mission. Everybody kind of separated and went their separate ways. After she flew her flight, she was in the process of leaving, so she stayed for that one mission and then went off to do something else. So I don’t remember us doing a whole lot of public appearances here in the U.S. with her, although she’s always been a focus of attention of course.

[Assistant] Very well-spoken, and good public speaker. I just wanted to ask one more question. That was something I noticed, that you had noticed an anomaly on your mission. There was something protruding from the rudder before you were getting ready to prepare for landing. You asked Mission Control to take a look. Wondered if you would talk about that.

[User] Oh, yes. I had forgotten about that. We took some photos of it, I know. We probably sent them down some video of it. It was some sort of a seal or a thermal barrier that was protruding. It wound up not being much of an issue at all. I don’t remember if it was still on the orbiter when we landed or not. It hasn’t really stuck in my mind a whole lot after that.\n\n Anything protruding you would worry about during the reentry. Of course on the top side of the orbiter, it’s somewhat protected by all the rest of the orbiter leading the way during reentry. So it’s not like having an anomaly on the bottom side.

[Assistant] You weren’t as concerned as the previous mission with those tiles.

[User] Yes, that’s true. Somebody had mentioned to me, “You’re the 50th mission. We lost the 25th. Is it every 25 launches?” Somebody had mentioned that to me before the mission.\n\n I said, “No, that’s superstition. That’s silly.”

[Assistant] Did that enter your mind at all when you were in orbit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I had forgotten about that. We took some photos of it, I know. We probably sent them down some video of it. It was some sort of a seal or a thermal barrier that was protruding. It wound up not being much of an issue at all. I don’t remember if it was still on the orbiter when we landed or not. It hasn’t really stuck in my mind a whole lot after that.\n\n Anything protruding you would worry about during the reentry. Of course on the top side of the orbiter, it’s somewhat protected by all the rest of the orbiter leading the way during reentry. So it’s not like having an anomaly on the bottom side.

[Assistant] You weren’t as concerned as the previous mission with those tiles.

[User] Yes, that’s true. Somebody had mentioned to me, “You’re the 50th mission. We lost the 25th. Is it every 25 launches?” Somebody had mentioned that to me before the mission.\n\n I said, “No, that’s superstition. That’s silly.”

[Assistant] Did that enter your mind at all when you were in orbit?

[User] No, not at all, didn’t even enter my mind.

[Assistant] I think this might actually be a good place for us to stop so we could pick up being chief of the Astronaut Office. …


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s true. Somebody had mentioned to me, “You’re the 50th mission. We lost the 25th. Is it every 25 launches?” Somebody had mentioned that to me before the mission.\n\n I said, “No, that’s superstition. That’s silly.”

[Assistant] Did that enter your mind at all when you were in orbit?

[User] No, not at all, didn’t even enter my mind.

[Assistant] I think this might actually be a good place for us to stop so we could pick up being chief of the Astronaut Office. …

[User] [Let me share a little bit before I go.] What happened very shortly after that mission was I [hear] the rumor that said, “Hey, the rumor mill is out there that says you’re going to be the next chief.” I said, “Really? After I’ve been grounded?” To myself.\n\n It stood to reason, because Dan Brandenstein had been the first pilot astronaut to fly four missions, and I was the second pilot astronaut to fly four missions. So at that point I am the most experienced pilot in the corps, so it stood to reason that that could be the case, and sure enough it was.

[Assistant] That’ll be good for us to talk about next time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Let me share a little bit before I go.] What happened very shortly after that mission was I [hear] the rumor that said, “Hey, the rumor mill is out there that says you’re going to be the next chief.” I said, “Really? After I’ve been grounded?” To myself.\n\n It stood to reason, because Dan Brandenstein had been the first pilot astronaut to fly four missions, and I was the second pilot astronaut to fly four missions. So at that point I am the most experienced pilot in the corps, so it stood to reason that that could be the case, and sure enough it was.

[Assistant] That’ll be good for us to talk about next time.

[User] I was so glad I got to do that. It was probably the hardest I ever worked in the whole time I was at NASA, but it was such a rewarding experience, and it was such a difficult experience at the same time.

[Assistant] I’m sure.

[User] Yes, it’ll be interesting to talk about.

[Assistant] Good. I’ll look forward to it next time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What do you think is your most significant contribution to the test?

[User] Oh, it’s pretty minor actually, I think. For most of this test I was just an orchestrator. I was just directing a lot of really smart people and very dedicated people to do what they do. My part of it I feel was pretty inconsequential compared to what I saw a lot of people doing through this test. I can’t thank those people enough for the dedication they had and the commitments that they made to make this test a success.

[Assistant] Do you think that this will be your last project of this type? Will you be retiring soon?

[User] I hope not. I’m working on some new programs. WFIRST [Wide Field Infrared Survey Telescope] is a very exciting program with some really fantastic science. Not only in dark energy, which is its main thrust, but also the possibility to fly a coronagraph for the first time in space is very exciting.\n\n As we start to think about future systems, with respect to the 2020 decadal survey for example, I think planet finding could be—it’s certainly in the mix—a very exciting science. I think the public is very enamored. The big question, “Are we alone?” Flying a coronagraph and getting that on-orbit experience I think is going to be very exciting.\n\n There’s programs called LISA [Laser Interferometer Space Antenna], which looks at gravity waves. They’ve verified gravity waves on the ground with LIGO [Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory], and the sensitivity we’d get in space would be phenomenal. There’s some really fantastic science being thought about, being planned. There’s the four decadal studies going on right now from x rays out to far IR. Yes, I’d certainly like to be involved in helping get some of these new programs started, getting WFIRST well on its way. I hope I’m not done yet.

[Assistant] You sound like you’ve had a great career. Before I let you go—I apologize, I’ve run over by just a couple minutes—are there any other people you think that we might want to talk to to capture some of this history?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Lee [D.] Feinberg, Charlie [Charles B.] Atkinson. Probably Allison [A.] Barto, Mark [F.] Voyton, Juli [A.] Lander, Ritva Keski-Kuha I think would be some great folks to talk to.

[Assistant] Great, always like to ask people. Conrad Wells had given me your name, and so I wanted to just have other people weigh in. I wanted to ask though, before we closed out today—was there anything else, or something that you wanted to talk about that we did not cover that we should know about the test, or your involvement that you wanted to put on the recording?

[User] No, I don’t think so. I think we did a pretty good job of covering everything that I can think of. Is there any other directions you wanted to go?

[Assistant] I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered the highlights. As we move through we’ll have different questions for different people. You’re the first interview for this project. We will learn more about the test, we’re interviewing Jonathan [L.] Homan on Thursday. I think we’ll get a different aspect there and see what comes of that.\n\n I really do want to thank you for your time today. Like I said, we’ll be sending you a copy of the transcript so you get a chance to review and edit. If there’s anything you want to add, feel free. I appreciate your time.

[User] I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you. Good luck with your upcoming projects, they sound fascinating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so. I think we did a pretty good job of covering everything that I can think of. Is there any other directions you wanted to go?

[Assistant] I don’t think so. I think we’ve covered the highlights. As we move through we’ll have different questions for different people. You’re the first interview for this project. We will learn more about the test, we’re interviewing Jonathan [L.] Homan on Thursday. I think we’ll get a different aspect there and see what comes of that.\n\n I really do want to thank you for your time today. Like I said, we’ll be sending you a copy of the transcript so you get a chance to review and edit. If there’s anything you want to add, feel free. I appreciate your time.

[User] I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you. Good luck with your upcoming projects, they sound fascinating.

[User] Thanks.

[Assistant] All right, have a good day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and of course Shuttle was not necessarily thrilled with the concept. They had been sort of merrily going along, flying Spacelab [habitat module] and various things at 28.5 degree inclination, and now here’s this other program coming in and saying we need more performance, and can you make significant mods [modifications]? There was a lot of tension at first between the programs. Is this even possible, and where’s the money coming from, and how do we get this done? There was a pretty clear mandate that we would indeed get the Shuttle to 51.6 degrees, and so there were modifications made on that.

[Assistant] Pretty interesting time period. Then Shuttle-Mir [Program, ISS Phase One], the in-between.

[User] Right, right. Shuttle-Mir was in that era. I don’t remember when Shuttle-Mir started flying.

[Assistant] Around ’94, somewhere in there.

[User] It was probably right about when Alpha was formalized, and flew through much of it. Somewhere around ’95 or ’96 I went from Integrated Performance and Assembly, which was in the Vehicle Office, to the Deputy Vehicle Manager. At that time, the Vehicle Office had really all of the development for Space Station. We hadn’t separated out OM [Systems Engineering and Integration Office]. In today’s org [organizational] structure, what I initially did is really OM’s function now.\n\n Then we hadn’t separated out Software and Avionics, so OD [Avionics and Software Office] was part of that as well. Really, at that point, OB, the Vehicle Office included what today is OB, OD, and OM. Station was the first human spaceflight program that I’m aware of that set up an ops function within the program office. There was a little bit of stress around that.

[Assistant] That’s a big culture change here at the Center to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there until [ISS Assembly Mission] 2A [STS-88] flew. That was December ’98. Stayed through them, and at that point decided I was ready for a change, and went over to Engineering. I actually spent about the first 15 years of my career on Space Station in some form, in various different forms, and then after that went over to Engineering.

[Assistant] At least you were able to stay until you got to see the first couple of modules go up.

[User] Yes. Yes, that was a special moment, seeing the 2A launch.

[Assistant] Can you share with us where you were?

[User] For 2A I went down [to Cape Canaveral, Florida] for launch. I would say probably most of the leadership team did at that point.

[Assistant] What a celebration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, that was a special moment, seeing the 2A launch.

[Assistant] Can you share with us where you were?

[User] For 2A I went down [to Cape Canaveral, Florida] for launch. I would say probably most of the leadership team did at that point.

[Assistant] What a celebration.

[User] It’s such a huge milestone, such a huge celebration. We all went down for the launch. Some folks went to the control room [NASA Kennedy Space Center (KSC) Launch Control Center], some folks went to the Banana Creek viewing stand. I went to Banana Creek, so I watched it from there. Just an incredible experience to see the fruition of so much work.\n\n Of course, it kept dragging out. Originally it was supposed to be considerably earlier than ’98. We had welding problems—it’s amazing to me. We always seem to be surprised when we have welding problems. We had welding problems on Orion too, and yet every major spacecraft we—

[Assistant] Probably Apollo, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For 2A I went down [to Cape Canaveral, Florida] for launch. I would say probably most of the leadership team did at that point.

[Assistant] What a celebration.

[User] It’s such a huge milestone, such a huge celebration. We all went down for the launch. Some folks went to the control room [NASA Kennedy Space Center (KSC) Launch Control Center], some folks went to the Banana Creek viewing stand. I went to Banana Creek, so I watched it from there. Just an incredible experience to see the fruition of so much work.\n\n Of course, it kept dragging out. Originally it was supposed to be considerably earlier than ’98. We had welding problems—it’s amazing to me. We always seem to be surprised when we have welding problems. We had welding problems on Orion too, and yet every major spacecraft we—

[Assistant] Probably Apollo, too.

[User] Right, right. All kinds of schedule problems. It seemed like it was a very long time coming. It was wonderful to finally see it launch.

[Assistant] Looking back on those 15 years, what do you think was the biggest challenge that you and/or the program had to face as it was moving toward actually being put into space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I actually don't. I haven't had much contact with Congress; no.

[Assistant] Okay, I was just curious about that. You've done work with satellites. Have you done any work with the Space Shuttle and maybe some of the flight crews in terms of just Earth observations of the Arctic or Antarctic ice?

[User] No, I haven't actually done that either, although one of my good friends from Goddard became an astronaut, [Dr.] Piers [J.] Sellers. So that's cool to see him as an astronaut and watch his missions in particular. But no, I haven't done that.

[Assistant] Okay, I was just curious if the Shuttle had contributed at all to your work.

[User] No. Not directly.

[Assistant] Shall we turn our attention to the Aqua Satellite?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, now I knew what that was. The first node. In fact Bill Shepherd was on that first crew that went up and crewed it.

[Assistant] We found it very interesting that you were there for the first flight for the Shuttle-Mir Phase 1 Program and then yet you got to go back for the first flight.

[User] Yes, I was there for the first flight.

[Assistant] Of course there were differences because you had all that set up, but tell us about being there for that, because it’s such a historic time of launching a whole new program with an international partner.

[User] Yes it was. You knew you were starting something really big that was going to last a long time. I had gotten to know the Russians so well, and gotten so involved in their program, that it was almost like losing a family member when they had to get rid of the Mir. The decision was made to get rid of the Mir and we hated to see that go, but everybody was on board with going ahead and building the Space Station. So I got to go back over there and lead the flight control team for the first Space Station flight. I was over there for the first couple.

[Assistant] Did you have new members of your team?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They would go in there and they would tell them all these clearances are too tight. You’ve got to open this up, or these latches, it’ll never work this way. You [have] to change these latches. It was just that kind of stuff all the time. They took ownership of that telescope and they made them make it like it ought to be made and did a great job. Great job.

[Assistant] I just have one other question for you. That’s Charlie [Charles F.] Bolden [Jr.] was on that flight.

[User] Yes. Charlie was on that flight. That’s where I first got to know Charlie, one of the best human beings on the planet. Charlie is just a great guy, a great guy to work with. Interesting to see how things happen. Now he’s the [NASA] Administrator. I saw him about two or three FRRs [Flight Readiness Review] ago. The first joint FRR we had down at the Cape after he got named Administrator, I bumped into him in the hallway. I was kidding him about you’ve really done it now.

[Assistant] He’s a big-time commander now.

[User] Yes, he’s got his hands full, that’s for sure. I’d be more than happy to help Charlie any way I could. All he’s got to do is call or ask.

[Assistant] I’m sure he’d be glad to know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Charlie was on that flight. That’s where I first got to know Charlie, one of the best human beings on the planet. Charlie is just a great guy, a great guy to work with. Interesting to see how things happen. Now he’s the [NASA] Administrator. I saw him about two or three FRRs [Flight Readiness Review] ago. The first joint FRR we had down at the Cape after he got named Administrator, I bumped into him in the hallway. I was kidding him about you’ve really done it now.

[Assistant] He’s a big-time commander now.

[User] Yes, he’s got his hands full, that’s for sure. I’d be more than happy to help Charlie any way I could. All he’s got to do is call or ask.

[Assistant] I’m sure he’d be glad to know that.

[User] Well, I already told him that.

[Assistant] That’s good. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? Is there anything that we didn’t get to cover that you thought about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he’s got his hands full, that’s for sure. I’d be more than happy to help Charlie any way I could. All he’s got to do is call or ask.

[Assistant] I’m sure he’d be glad to know that.

[User] Well, I already told him that.

[Assistant] That’s good. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? Is there anything that we didn’t get to cover that you thought about?

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything. I’ve pretty much told you my whole life or all that I’m going to tell you.

[Assistant] [Share with us] what you’re doing to help prepare the Shuttle [for retirement].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I already told him that.

[Assistant] That’s good. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? Is there anything that we didn’t get to cover that you thought about?

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything. I’ve pretty much told you my whole life or all that I’m going to tell you.

[Assistant] [Share with us] what you’re doing to help prepare the Shuttle [for retirement].

[User] Yes. Our main focus is flying the program out. I have a deputy, Bill Hollister. I basically divided the work with him. I said because of my experience, I’ve been in the Shuttle Program forever, I will focus mostly on trying to fly the Shuttles out. I’ve split the workload with him to start focusing on the future, because he will be here in the future and I won’t be. He’s working the new business aspects and trying to figure out what new businesses we can get into and how we can evolve into future work, so that’s how we’re preparing. It’s going to be tough. We’ve told all of our people that there’s a cliff out there. When the program ends, a bunch of people are going to fall off the cliff, because right now we don’t have the work. Until contracts get put in place, that’s the thing you learn on the contractor side real fast, is no contract, no work.

[Assistant] No funding. That’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gosh, I can’t think of anything. I’ve pretty much told you my whole life or all that I’m going to tell you.

[Assistant] [Share with us] what you’re doing to help prepare the Shuttle [for retirement].

[User] Yes. Our main focus is flying the program out. I have a deputy, Bill Hollister. I basically divided the work with him. I said because of my experience, I’ve been in the Shuttle Program forever, I will focus mostly on trying to fly the Shuttles out. I’ve split the workload with him to start focusing on the future, because he will be here in the future and I won’t be. He’s working the new business aspects and trying to figure out what new businesses we can get into and how we can evolve into future work, so that’s how we’re preparing. It’s going to be tough. We’ve told all of our people that there’s a cliff out there. When the program ends, a bunch of people are going to fall off the cliff, because right now we don’t have the work. Until contracts get put in place, that’s the thing you learn on the contractor side real fast, is no contract, no work.

[Assistant] No funding. That’s right.

[User] That takes time. Takes a long time. That’s the scariest part of this whole upheaval, is the timing. They waited so late from the time this Administration started to pick an Administrator, then to come out with what they wanted to do with NASA. They waited so late now that there’s so little time between now and the end of the program and the end of this fiscal year, there’s not enough time to get redirected and get new contracts in place. So there’s going to be a big disruption in the agency.

[Assistant] A lot of challenges before you move on to your next adventure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Our main focus is flying the program out. I have a deputy, Bill Hollister. I basically divided the work with him. I said because of my experience, I’ve been in the Shuttle Program forever, I will focus mostly on trying to fly the Shuttles out. I’ve split the workload with him to start focusing on the future, because he will be here in the future and I won’t be. He’s working the new business aspects and trying to figure out what new businesses we can get into and how we can evolve into future work, so that’s how we’re preparing. It’s going to be tough. We’ve told all of our people that there’s a cliff out there. When the program ends, a bunch of people are going to fall off the cliff, because right now we don’t have the work. Until contracts get put in place, that’s the thing you learn on the contractor side real fast, is no contract, no work.

[Assistant] No funding. That’s right.

[User] That takes time. Takes a long time. That’s the scariest part of this whole upheaval, is the timing. They waited so late from the time this Administration started to pick an Administrator, then to come out with what they wanted to do with NASA. They waited so late now that there’s so little time between now and the end of the program and the end of this fiscal year, there’s not enough time to get redirected and get new contracts in place. So there’s going to be a big disruption in the agency.

[Assistant] A lot of challenges before you move on to your next adventure.

[User] There’s a simple solution, but I don’t know that anybody’ll do it.

[Assistant] Do you want to share that with us?