[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, I try to control the narrative a little bit by tamping it down a bit. There's going to be an article coming out in Wired magazine that talks a little bit about what we do in our unit, and I made sure that less than one percent of records goes through that process was part of that article.

[Assistant] But for a veteran or a family member, they don't care if it's one percent or what that percentage is as long as they're able to access that record.

[User] Right. And in a way, the good thing about this is it’s a record that would be nearly impossible to access otherwise. So that makes it, like you were saying, every record has a requester behind it.

[Assistant] Has this whole process, your whole experience working there, has it changed how you view records? Maybe just how important they are? I don't know. Has it changed your mindset in any way?

[User] Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely made me appreciate the historical sacrifices of servicemen and the fact that I'm just a lot more interested in the history just being exposed to all these records. The sheer scale of it is remarkable. And yeah, there's a huge side of this operation, which is just about enabling people to get their benefits. And that's so important. And it's ongoing. And then also just genealogy. As people age, I think they become more interested in the lives of their parents and grandparents. And then they want to find if there's a record available that they can research for genealogy. That's really interesting. I've helped friends of mine look up information about family members and assisted them in their research of these records as well. And that's been a really fun thing to do.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask earlier when you did move to the new building, how challenging was that? Were labs already set up by the time you got to the new building? What was that process like? That had to be pretty challenging to start fresh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely made me appreciate the historical sacrifices of servicemen and the fact that I'm just a lot more interested in the history just being exposed to all these records. The sheer scale of it is remarkable. And yeah, there's a huge side of this operation, which is just about enabling people to get their benefits. And that's so important. And it's ongoing. And then also just genealogy. As people age, I think they become more interested in the lives of their parents and grandparents. And then they want to find if there's a record available that they can research for genealogy. That's really interesting. I've helped friends of mine look up information about family members and assisted them in their research of these records as well. And that's been a really fun thing to do.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask earlier when you did move to the new building, how challenging was that? Were labs already set up by the time you got to the new building? What was that process like? That had to be pretty challenging to start fresh.

[User] Well, we did such a—it was such an upgrade really. We planned a lot of space in our labs. We planned a lot of network connections in our lab. And we have really first-class spaces here. So, it was a huge upgrade. We have electrical outlets everywhere. So actually it went really well. And we were formerly in a basement, so in a much smaller space. So it was a huge improvement. And we occupy a pretty big footprint in this building. So we can expand, and we can do more here. We can become a resource for the regional NARA facilities that don't have digitization or treatment capabilities. So our future plans are aligned with not just servicing the records here but also assisting other NARA offices in treatment and digitization.

[Assistant] How many people do you have working there–just in preservation?

[User] In preservation, we're 17 currently.

[Assistant] Wow. So you make it sound like it was a pretty smooth transition, though, to that that new building. Is that pretty accurate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did such a—it was such an upgrade really. We planned a lot of space in our labs. We planned a lot of network connections in our lab. And we have really first-class spaces here. So, it was a huge upgrade. We have electrical outlets everywhere. So actually it went really well. And we were formerly in a basement, so in a much smaller space. So it was a huge improvement. And we occupy a pretty big footprint in this building. So we can expand, and we can do more here. We can become a resource for the regional NARA facilities that don't have digitization or treatment capabilities. So our future plans are aligned with not just servicing the records here but also assisting other NARA offices in treatment and digitization.

[Assistant] How many people do you have working there–just in preservation?

[User] In preservation, we're 17 currently.

[Assistant] Wow. So you make it sound like it was a pretty smooth transition, though, to that that new building. Is that pretty accurate?

[User] Yeah. I know you could probably find others who would say it was a headache, but no, it seemed like a smooth transition. When I think back on it, they had prepared all the computers ahead of time so that they were all functional. We didn't have to move anything at all. Now for the process of going out and finding records, I don't do that. So I don't know how that necessarily works. I planned the physical space around my lab, but I didn't plan the stacks and the systems that govern the casework here, the case management programs and applications.

[Assistant] Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. So we're kind of coming up towards the end of the hour here. I just wanted to ask, what do you think would be maybe your greatest accomplishment so far working at NARA? You've worked there for a number of years now. And it sounds like what you do is just amazing, and it's high tech and it's very specialized. What do you think is your greatest accomplishment so far?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s our pleasure.

[Assistant] We certainly appreciate it.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] I’d like to begin with you, Terry. Can you tell us what the role of a flight activities officer is?

[User] For each mission we’re assigned, usually well in advance, usually about 14 months away from actual liftoff. Part of the reason behind that is we’re one of the integrators for the flight. We work very closely with the flight directors, the crew, engineering, and the other disciplines to bring together all the mission objectives into a cohesive plan. So we really start about 14 months out working with the program, making sure that we can meet their objectives.\n\n We start laying out some rough draft timelines on a high level, just pigeonhole where we think things are going to go. There usually is some work done before at a higher level that just basically says we think we can do, say, three EVAs [Extravehicular Activities], and we can transfer this amount of stuff, and this is where we think the equipment transfer is going to occur. We really get down into the depth and see how it all fits together, because typically there’s a lot of constraints, both crew timewise, spatially, like before you put module X on the port, you have to clear it or inspect it. We just work closely with the different organizations to make that plan all fit together like a puzzle.

[Assistant] What was your role as the lead timeliner, Gail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m working mostly Constellation now. Last November I got retasked from working [STS]-119 into working on Constellation, because they’re starting to step up the effort. In fact, there’s a meeting going on right now with the system module review. I’m heading back over to University of Houston-Clear Lake [Houston, Texas] where we’re using their auditorium to present a lot of our data.

[Assistant] Great! You’re working on a new mission?

[User] Working on a new mission. STS-130 will deliver Node 3 and the Cupola next February, hopefully. I guess we’ll see the actual date once these delays all trickle through. After that, I think I’m going to eventually either move into the Constellation realm or start to get trained on the Space Station side of things. It depends on where the opportunities open up.

[Assistant] We thank you for taking time out of your day today to talk to us about the mission. We certainly appreciate it and we’ve enjoyed it.

[User]
Sure. It was a great mission, and we still share the same office, even though we’re working different projects now. We reference [STS]-124 at least once a week.

We do, we do. We do, the greatest mission ever. We have our picture from hanging the plaque in our office so that we can always remember that.

[Assistant]
I’ll have to use that quote, “the greatest mission ever.”\n\n (Break in audio)

You were talking about having shifts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the same time the Shuttle was flying out. The last flight was July of 2011, so not only did we successfully fly that out but we also were in the process of transitioning all of the assets. I had started that in my space operations job before I left to go to program analysis and evaluation.\n\n We knew the Shuttle Program would be coming to an end, so we started the process of how do you transition people and assets. We started the whole process of where are the orbiters going to live. But by the time it was actually done I wasn’t part of that process at all anymore. I don’t take any accountability for where they ended up.

[Assistant] In 2008 you authored an article with Mike [Michael R.] Duffey for the project.

[User] Oh yes. That was based on my doctoral dissertation.

[Assistant] I just thought that was interesting. For financial valuation methodologies for NASA’s human spaceflight projects. Part of it I was reading, it said that—

[User] You were really desperate if you were reading that puppy.

[Assistant] I didn’t read all of it, but I read parts of it. “Over the next few years representing amazing opportunities to effectively share resources across the Agency in a manner never considered before in the future of human spaceflight, and a real option analysis framework.” But it was a real option analysis, that’s what the paper was on, right? I just thought that was interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I pretty well knew that I was ready for a change. I knew that Charlie and Lori really wanted to restructure that office that I was running. They kept pulling pieces away largely into the CFO’s [Chief Financial Officer] office. You could argue that many of them had lived in that office in the past, and what Mike had done was put them all together in a different formulation. So, I knew it was pretty much the right timing for me. I stayed in the traditional civil service retirement system, so 55 years of age and 30 plus years were the magic numbers, and in June of 2011 I was 55 years old with 33 years of service. I chose to retire at the beginning of July.\n\n A couple months prior to that when the word started to get out that I was thinking of that, Lockheed Martin asked if I were interested. I was talking to three or four different groups. But I actually formally applied for a job with Lockheed Martin and that was what I transitioned to after my long weekend of retirement.

[Assistant] You didn’t take a long time off evidently.

[User] There were timing constraints on both sides in terms of when I could be done at NASA and the advantages of being into the system with Lockheed Martin by a certain time. It just made it work out that I did have one extra day. It was the Fourth of July.

[Assistant] So you got a holiday.

[User] I got a holiday and showed up for work on Tuesday.

[Assistant] What were you working on first when you went to Lockheed Martin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, so it was an easy transition for me. But all along, without telling me so, the Lockheed folks had pretty much planned to try to twist my arm to get back here [to Houston].

[Assistant] They did in 2014.

[User] Yes, 2014. Clearly they had been working me over for a while. The manager down here at the time, Cleon Lacefield, had been wanting to retire, and they were looking to try to find somebody replace Cleon. They were looking for somebody that had a fair amount of NASA experience.\n\n Earlier in that year they approached me as to “Okay, we need a decision. Are you really no? Or are you really interested in doing this?” My wife and I talked about it and decided that we could find a way to make it work. It was a great job. Then they announced it in June of ’14. I started basically at the job at that time. Cleon hung around through the end of July-ish as a transition and then it was all on my own, with this big flight test coming up in just a few months.

[Assistant] That was a busy year for Orion.

[User] It ended up being a very busy year.

[Assistant] Talk about that buildup to that EFT-1 [Exploration Flight Test-1] and what was going on from the Lockheed side.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think there was a lot of folks that spent a lot of time and really focused on what we needed to do that flight. We didn’t try to do everything. We didn’t try to integrate a full service module. It was basically just a structure that we built. We were just in the formulation of working with this European deal. There were things that definitely were—I would say we scaled the test to the right types of things that we could demonstrate, but I still personally expected to have more issues and anomalies to deal with after the test.\n\n I think that’s just a testament to the folks that put the time in integrating all the systems. The fact that we had built the early version of our integrated test lab to run the hardware and the software together. The team processing in Florida, it was the second vehicle they’d been through, so there was still learning involved and there were still stumbles along the way, but we didn’t kill the schedule with them, and we didn’t take shortcuts to not fix problems that we found along the way.

[Assistant] You mentioned Mark Geyer. In the last interview you talked how you always seemed to—

[User] Yes. I said Mark and I have bounced off each other many times.

[Assistant] Yes. Basically you were in the same positions, only him for NASA and you for Lockheed Martin.

[User] It was good. It was a very positive experience I think. But Mark had the foresight as the Program Manager to push for the mission. When they were coming out of the cancellation mode, there wasn’t another test mission after Pad Abort 1. He worked with the Lockheed Martin team and the NASA team to help formulate that test and to scale it appropriately so that it could do a lot of very important things but it wasn’t trying to do too much.

[Assistant] I think it was important for morale as much as anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I said Mark and I have bounced off each other many times.

[Assistant] Yes. Basically you were in the same positions, only him for NASA and you for Lockheed Martin.

[User] It was good. It was a very positive experience I think. But Mark had the foresight as the Program Manager to push for the mission. When they were coming out of the cancellation mode, there wasn’t another test mission after Pad Abort 1. He worked with the Lockheed Martin team and the NASA team to help formulate that test and to scale it appropriately so that it could do a lot of very important things but it wasn’t trying to do too much.

[Assistant] I think it was important for morale as much as anything.

[User] If you looked at just the press clippings, the worldwide impact, it really was significant. Which surprised me. I was not totally convinced that the general public would get the fact that this was outside of LEO. Relatively speaking, we only flew 3,600 miles. The Moon is still 240,000 miles away, so 237 thousand further miles away. But all the public response, they got the exploration piece. They got that the Earth looked different in the camera view out the window than they had seen from Space Station for all these years. I thought that was really exciting.

[Assistant] There’s a whole generation that haven’t seen those photos.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was good. It was a very positive experience I think. But Mark had the foresight as the Program Manager to push for the mission. When they were coming out of the cancellation mode, there wasn’t another test mission after Pad Abort 1. He worked with the Lockheed Martin team and the NASA team to help formulate that test and to scale it appropriately so that it could do a lot of very important things but it wasn’t trying to do too much.

[Assistant] I think it was important for morale as much as anything.

[User] If you looked at just the press clippings, the worldwide impact, it really was significant. Which surprised me. I was not totally convinced that the general public would get the fact that this was outside of LEO. Relatively speaking, we only flew 3,600 miles. The Moon is still 240,000 miles away, so 237 thousand further miles away. But all the public response, they got the exploration piece. They got that the Earth looked different in the camera view out the window than they had seen from Space Station for all these years. I thought that was really exciting.

[Assistant] There’s a whole generation that haven’t seen those photos.

[User] That’s right. I think even though I was making a statement for my generation, it also spoke to a lot of generations younger that this was something really significant that they were part of and did. Now we just need to fly again.

[Assistant] That’s right. There is an international aspect to it of course with ESA [European Space Agency building the service module.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you looked at just the press clippings, the worldwide impact, it really was significant. Which surprised me. I was not totally convinced that the general public would get the fact that this was outside of LEO. Relatively speaking, we only flew 3,600 miles. The Moon is still 240,000 miles away, so 237 thousand further miles away. But all the public response, they got the exploration piece. They got that the Earth looked different in the camera view out the window than they had seen from Space Station for all these years. I thought that was really exciting.

[Assistant] There’s a whole generation that haven’t seen those photos.

[User] That’s right. I think even though I was making a statement for my generation, it also spoke to a lot of generations younger that this was something really significant that they were part of and did. Now we just need to fly again.

[Assistant] That’s right. There is an international aspect to it of course with ESA [European Space Agency building the service module.

[User] Yes, there is.

[Assistant] Do you just want to talk about that relationship with ESA and how that works?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think it’s a positive thing. But we’re glad that we have the module to work on now.

[Assistant] That’s good. The next flight that’s scheduled is the Ascent Abort Test 2 [AA-2].

[User] Ascent Abort Test 2 is scheduled. I don’t think they’ve really announced it. We picked a date when we did the study of April 27th. Turns out that’s a Saturday, so that’s not really a launch day. I think probably that next week in early May is going to be the target date when they announce it. We’re building the launch abort system for that down in Florida today, and that includes the structural piece that mounts to the capsule. JSC has built a special capsule for the test, so we have the structure and then all three motors that are involved in the launch abort system, and the covering fairings and ogives are all in work. We will be basically handing over what the government calls the DD250 [Material Inspection and Receiving Report] step of the launch abort system for that test, which is in the third week of January is the plan. That’s all coming together. We’ve got one more motor finishing up in Elkton, Maryland, this month, and then everything will be coming together in Florida.

[Assistant] Good to see something go again.

[User] It will be good to see something go. It’s an interesting test. It’s a short test. Aborts are not very long, but they’re critical to show the capability. We’ve done it from the ground level on Pad Abort 1. Now we do it at max dynamic pressure, so we see all the interactions. It’ll be a good test. That’ll help keep our momentum going so that now we head to the EM-1 mission in mid 2020.

[Assistant] Then through all of this now we’ve had another presidential administration transition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ascent Abort Test 2 is scheduled. I don’t think they’ve really announced it. We picked a date when we did the study of April 27th. Turns out that’s a Saturday, so that’s not really a launch day. I think probably that next week in early May is going to be the target date when they announce it. We’re building the launch abort system for that down in Florida today, and that includes the structural piece that mounts to the capsule. JSC has built a special capsule for the test, so we have the structure and then all three motors that are involved in the launch abort system, and the covering fairings and ogives are all in work. We will be basically handing over what the government calls the DD250 [Material Inspection and Receiving Report] step of the launch abort system for that test, which is in the third week of January is the plan. That’s all coming together. We’ve got one more motor finishing up in Elkton, Maryland, this month, and then everything will be coming together in Florida.

[Assistant] Good to see something go again.

[User] It will be good to see something go. It’s an interesting test. It’s a short test. Aborts are not very long, but they’re critical to show the capability. We’ve done it from the ground level on Pad Abort 1. Now we do it at max dynamic pressure, so we see all the interactions. It’ll be a good test. That’ll help keep our momentum going so that now we head to the EM-1 mission in mid 2020.

[Assistant] Then through all of this now we’ve had another presidential administration transition.

[User] Indeed.

[Assistant] I had read that actually there was talk when President [Donald] Trump first took over that he possibly wanted to put a crew on EM-1 or had thought about the possibility.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’ve been part of every NASA Mars mission since Viking, and so Lockheed has been the industry partner, whether it’s been orbiters, landers, or the entry systems for rovers. It was a good week. I think you’re right. I have a talk next week to give, and that’s the theme that I’m taking, that there’s a perception that this is a down quiet time. But, if you really look at it, you have private capital going into building new launch systems, you have three human capsules being developed and built, and those are just the ones that NASA is funding. You have another one on Blue Origin that is today a suborbital system, but they have design and ideas to move further out into that. You have a whole series they’re going to announce tomorrow the small lander contracts that they’re going to award.\n\n So, it really is a very busy time, but it’s different from past times because it has a whole spectrum of private capital, different contracting methods, different oversight methods, different roles across it, and frankly some not written yet. How are all these things going to play? How is the suborbital market going to change things if you get a Blue and a Virgin really on a regular flight rate? What does it mean for a vehicle to be flying every couple weeks like that? I think there’s still some big changes.

[Assistant] Like you said, the spectrum is so wide, whereas in Apollo everything was laser-focused. The purpose could be—well, it was explained by the President in one sentence. Go to the Moon and come back safely. I think it’s exciting.

[User] I’ve been reading one of the Apollo histories just to remind myself of all those pieces. It’s right up there actually [pointing at bookshelf].

[Assistant] Which one?

[User] Apollo, by Charles Murray and Catherine Bly Cox. It’s good.

[Assistant] It’s the definitive. We use it a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve been reading one of the Apollo histories just to remind myself of all those pieces. It’s right up there actually [pointing at bookshelf].

[Assistant] Which one?

[User] Apollo, by Charles Murray and Catherine Bly Cox. It’s good.

[Assistant] It’s the definitive. We use it a lot.

[User] I enjoy it because it mentions so many people, and so many people that I know from when I started. Even folks that retired shortly thereafter I still had some interaction with, a lot of the folks. That’s kind of fun.

[Assistant] One of the things I had from an article in 2000, it described one of your jobs and assets at the time, in 2000, was you were good at boosting morale. You’re quoted in it as saying, “When I get pulled in all these different directions by so many tasks and so many people, I can maintain an even keel and not overreact to situations,” and that you were praised by your coworkers as a “rousing locker room motivator, a man who can revive flagging troops.”\n\n You credited a wrestling coach that you had had, Dave Clelland, as a role model. In our first interview you also talked about those engineers that you were just talking about, the people that got us to the Moon, and how they were your mentors, and you were working with them. While we have a few minutes, talk about the importance of NASA and these other companies too, like Lockheed Martin. How do they inspire the next generation? I know we have STEM [curriculum based on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math], but do you see it when you go out and give talks or just talk to people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He’s doing well. I can tell when he’s talked to people. I can tell what’s new if I’ve heard him a couple times. I can tell where that’s new information. I’ve talked to him a couple times about things and it gets incorporated in the next talk. He is learning quickly.

[Assistant] That’s good. Okay, well, we’ve kept you a little bit over. But is there anything else you wanted to mention before we left?

[User] No.

[Assistant] I think we’ve covered you pretty well.

[User] You’ll figure something out if you need me again.

[Assistant] Yes. We have flights coming up so it might be good to talk to you after those. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say everybody had their formal roles, and one of my informal roles throughout that COTS process was being a translator, explaining some of the legal aspects to the engineers, some of the business aspects to the engineers, and trying to be a go-between between folks who have vastly different backgrounds.

[Assistant] Do you have any insight as to why, at the end of the day, all those discussions weren’t quite enough for RpK to raise the funding it needed? From your perspective in the legal role.

[User] From my perspective—NASA deals with some of this on a smaller scale all the time, frankly. When you think about going and trying to raise large amounts of private capital, you’re pitching this idea and you don’t need a million bucks, you need $500 million. One of the things that maybe NASA doesn’t quite get, and I think this is what happened to RpK, is you have to be better than every other investment opportunity out there.\n\n Big investors, folks who have a lot of money, New York types, they have 6, 8, 10, 12 folks in and out of their office every day saying, “If you give me $100 million, here’s what I’m going to do with it. Here’s your return on your investment.” They’re constantly cranking through these potential deals to see where they’re going to put their bets, where they’re going to put their money. There are a lot of things going for COTS, but I think at the stage it was in, there were just other investment opportunities that a lot of private capital found to be a little more firm, maybe a little better guaranteed return, and so you start to cut down on who’s willing to make a bet on building spaceships. I think ultimately that’s where it ran into some trouble.

[Assistant] Were you involved in the discussions with NASA making the final decision to terminate?

[User] Yes, I was part of all of that.

[Assistant] Can you talk about what sort of issues came up and how those discussions proceeded?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rebecca, you can’t put a number on that.

[Assistant] Just to infinity and beyond?

[User] Yes. I guess I’ll just answer it this way. We worked a lot of hours on COTS—not just me, but we were regularly working lots of nights. I can remember one particular meeting running into Alan [Lindenmoyer] at the mall, and he said, “Oh, I’m so glad that I ran into you.” While my wife shopped and his family shopped, we sat down for two hours in the food court, and we mapped out some strategy to get something done. We threw ourselves into COTS pretty good.

[Assistant] Did you get a vote in the selection process, or were the legal people just advising?

[User] No no, just advising. Just doing the same types of things that we would do in a procurement context, making sure that what they were considering they were documenting correctly, that they were following the process that we had laid out and said we were going to follow, and things of that nature.

[Assistant] As you were walking through this process, did you have reservations on whether or not the legal process that you put in place was going to be able to be defensible, because didn’t you have a couple of chances to answer some questions whether or not this was legal and the right thing to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure. Today is one of those very rare not busy schedules.

[Assistant] The launch went off.

[User] The launch went off fine. The mission is going extremely well. In fact the guys at Houston [Texas, Johnson Space Center] even have time to do some practical jokes. I just saw a picture they sent in. Gene [Eugene F.] Kranz, on I think it was Apollo 13, and the original mission crew. I never can remember the other guy’s name that was on the off shift with Kranz on Apollo 13.

[Assistant] Glynn [S.] Lunney?

[User] Yes, it might have been Glynn. You’re the history guys. You know this kind of stuff. There was a whole black-and-white picture with everybody with black pants and white shirts and skinny black ties and the guys in the DAT [Damage Assessment] Team, who since there’s hardly any damage or anything of interest on the Orbiter TPS [Thermal Protection System] to work, all dressed up in white shirts and skinny black ties and vests with Apollo mission patches on them. You can tell it’s a good day in a mission when everybody has time to act the fool, play a little game, play jokes on one another. Gene Kranz came in so he’s in the new picture as well as the old ones. That’s a good thing.

[Assistant] That’s a nice tie. Well, tell us if you would how you became involved with the Orbiter Project in Rockwell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm Mike McReynolds and I worked for 32 years at the National Archives.

[Assistant] Wow! Good to be reminded. I guess my first question for you is how you.decided to apply for a job at the National Archives

[User] I was an instructor at the SUNY College at Fredonia, New York and teaching Western Civ and U.S. History. I had an MA from the University ofChicago and knew that I wouldn't be able to stay at Fredonia.

[Assistant] It was a temporary ...

[User] Yes, I had a two year contract. I could have had a second two year contract, but I knew that I had to do something else. The National Archives was recruiting at the Organization ofAmerican Historians in Philadelphia. So I talked with them about a career at the National Archives, and that's how I goi to the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you didn't really prepare for an archival career; you were preparing to be an historian.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was an instructor at the SUNY College at Fredonia, New York and teaching Western Civ and U.S. History. I had an MA from the University ofChicago and knew that I wouldn't be able to stay at Fredonia.

[Assistant] It was a temporary ...

[User] Yes, I had a two year contract. I could have had a second two year contract, but I knew that I had to do something else. The National Archives was recruiting at the Organization ofAmerican Historians in Philadelphia. So I talked with them about a career at the National Archives, and that's how I goi to the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you didn't really prepare for an archival career; you were preparing to be an historian.

[User] Yes, though I had thought about being a librarian or archivist throughout my ... that was always in the background ofmy thoughts.

[Assistant] Did you take any library science classes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had a two year contract. I could have had a second two year contract, but I knew that I had to do something else. The National Archives was recruiting at the Organization ofAmerican Historians in Philadelphia. So I talked with them about a career at the National Archives, and that's how I goi to the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you didn't really prepare for an archival career; you were preparing to be an historian.

[User] Yes, though I had thought about being a librarian or archivist throughout my ... that was always in the background ofmy thoughts.

[Assistant] Did you take any library science classes?

[User] No, but I had applied to the University ofToronto and Columbia University Library Schools, before I got the job at the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you wer~n•t a complete stranger to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, though I had thought about being a librarian or archivist throughout my ... that was always in the background ofmy thoughts.

[Assistant] Did you take any library science classes?

[User] No, but I had applied to the University ofToronto and Columbia University Library Schools, before I got the job at the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you wer~n•t a complete stranger to it?

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] When you got the job, did it meet your expectations? Did you have a vision ofwhat it would be like working at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but I had applied to the University ofToronto and Columbia University Library Schools, before I got the job at the National Archives.

[Assistant] So you wer~n•t a complete stranger to it?

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] When you got the job, did it meet your expectations? Did you have a vision ofwhat it would be like working at the National Archives?

[User] I was very fortunate in that my first position was in the judicial records section which had been my interest while I was in graduate school. I was primarily a reference archivist the first five years, and that is what I thought I would be doing.

[Assistant] Working with researchers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right.

[Assistant] When you got the job, did it meet your expectations? Did you have a vision ofwhat it would be like working at the National Archives?

[User] I was very fortunate in that my first position was in the judicial records section which had been my interest while I was in graduate school. I was primarily a reference archivist the first five years, and that is what I thought I would be doing.

[Assistant] Working with researchers?

[User] Right, working with researchers and with records.

[Assistant] Did you get training on the job when you first arrived? How did that work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very fortunate in that my first position was in the judicial records section which had been my interest while I was in graduate school. I was primarily a reference archivist the first five years, and that is what I thought I would be doing.

[Assistant] Working with researchers?

[User] Right, working with researchers and with records.

[Assistant] Did you get training on the job when you first arrived? How did that work?

[User] There were two other people that worked in the judicial section at that time. One was Don Mosholder who was an archives technician and Marion Johnson was the archivist. Marion spent almost all of his time with the Warren Commission Records. Most ofthe on job tutoring that I got came from Don Mosholder.

[Assistant] They didn't have formal training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, working with researchers and with records.

[Assistant] Did you get training on the job when you first arrived? How did that work?

[User] There were two other people that worked in the judicial section at that time. One was Don Mosholder who was an archives technician and Marion Johnson was the archivist. Marion spent almost all of his time with the Warren Commission Records. Most ofthe on job tutoring that I got came from Don Mosholder.

[Assistant] They didn't have formal training?

[User] Oh yes, they did have a very extensive training course.

[Assistant] Which you participated in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were two other people that worked in the judicial section at that time. One was Don Mosholder who was an archives technician and Marion Johnson was the archivist. Marion spent almost all of his time with the Warren Commission Records. Most ofthe on job tutoring that I got came from Don Mosholder.

[Assistant] They didn't have formal training?

[User] Oh yes, they did have a very extensive training course.

[Assistant] Which you participated in?

[User] Yes, Mabel Deutrich and Frank Evans were the instructors.

[Assistant] How did the class operate when you were there? Once a week or ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, they did have a very extensive training course.

[Assistant] Which you participated in?

[User] Yes, Mabel Deutrich and Frank Evans were the instructors.

[Assistant] How did the class operate when you were there? Once a week or ...

[User] It was twice a week. It went on for two years. We had exams. Mabel taught for the second and third semester's administrative history ofthe United States. That was considered by the trainees to be horribly boring, but it turned out to be very useful for our careers.

[Assistant] You didn't appreciate it at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Mabel Deutrich and Frank Evans were the instructors.

[Assistant] How did the class operate when you were there? Once a week or ...

[User] It was twice a week. It went on for two years. We had exams. Mabel taught for the second and third semester's administrative history ofthe United States. That was considered by the trainees to be horribly boring, but it turned out to be very useful for our careers.

[Assistant] You didn't appreciate it at the time?

[User] We did not.

[Assistant] Who else was involved in the training, was it really primarily Mabel and Frank? No others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was twice a week. It went on for two years. We had exams. Mabel taught for the second and third semester's administrative history ofthe United States. That was considered by the trainees to be horribly boring, but it turned out to be very useful for our careers.

[Assistant] You didn't appreciate it at the time?

[User] We did not.

[Assistant] Who else was involved in the training, was it really primarily Mabel and Frank? No others?

[User] We had a two person Office ofPersonnel at the time. Most ofthe personnel work was being done at GSA, and so the director ofthat office actually directed the assignments. What we now call CIDS assignments.

[Assistant] So you did go on rotations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did not.

[Assistant] Who else was involved in the training, was it really primarily Mabel and Frank? No others?

[User] We had a two person Office ofPersonnel at the time. Most ofthe personnel work was being done at GSA, and so the director ofthat office actually directed the assignments. What we now call CIDS assignments.

[Assistant] So you did go on rotations?

[User] Very thorough.

[Assistant] Sounds that way, much more so than happened in the interim. Well actually I would like to hear a little bit more generally about your career. You started out in the judicial unit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a two person Office ofPersonnel at the time. Most ofthe personnel work was being done at GSA, and so the director ofthat office actually directed the assignments. What we now call CIDS assignments.

[Assistant] So you did go on rotations?

[User] Very thorough.

[Assistant] Sounds that way, much more so than happened in the interim. Well actually I would like to hear a little bit more generally about your career. You started out in the judicial unit.

[User] Yes

[Assistant] Then where did you go from there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very thorough.

[Assistant] Sounds that way, much more so than happened in the interim. Well actually I would like to hear a little bit more generally about your career. You started out in the judicial unit.

[User] Yes

[Assistant] Then where did you go from there?

[User] I was working as a reference archivist in judicial and didn't have any thoughts ofmoving around at the time. That looked like what I wanted to do. The National Archives ofthe United States was hosting the 1976 !CA (International Congress Archives) and they needed someone to prepare for it. This was 1974. Al Leisinger, who had been a mentor of Bert Rhoads (who was the Archivist at the time) suggested me to Bert Rhodes and Jim O'Neill who was Deputy Archivist, and I interviewed with them. I had no idea that I would be moving to their front office so quickly as a grade eleven archivist.

[Assistant] It must have been stunning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes

[Assistant] Then where did you go from there?

[User] I was working as a reference archivist in judicial and didn't have any thoughts ofmoving around at the time. That looked like what I wanted to do. The National Archives ofthe United States was hosting the 1976 !CA (International Congress Archives) and they needed someone to prepare for it. This was 1974. Al Leisinger, who had been a mentor of Bert Rhoads (who was the Archivist at the time) suggested me to Bert Rhodes and Jim O'Neill who was Deputy Archivist, and I interviewed with them. I had no idea that I would be moving to their front office so quickly as a grade eleven archivist.

[Assistant] It must have been stunning.

[User] I didn't know what !CA meant, so after the interview was over with, I went up to the library and asked the librarian ifshe knew what ICA w'as. I spent five years there, prim"!'ily preparing for the Congress. I also did quite a bit ofspeech writing. At times that was about half my work. Then the National Archives got involved in a joint publication with the Soviet Union archives on the documents for the relations between the two countries from 1765 to 1815. I was the administrative officer for that publication. So that was the big change in my career. It was just a real shift in everything that I was doing. It also gave me an idea ofwhat the National Archives was; much broader. Being a reference archivist in those days, in Archives I, your desk was in the stacks, your reference letters were signed by the division director. Congressional letters were signed by the Archivist. It was very bureaucratic and much closed in, physically as well as bureaucratically. So the move to the front office really opened my eyes to a Jot of things going on at the National Archives that I had no idea had happened.

[Assistant] Why do you think Al picked you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was working as a reference archivist in judicial and didn't have any thoughts ofmoving around at the time. That looked like what I wanted to do. The National Archives ofthe United States was hosting the 1976 !CA (International Congress Archives) and they needed someone to prepare for it. This was 1974. Al Leisinger, who had been a mentor of Bert Rhoads (who was the Archivist at the time) suggested me to Bert Rhodes and Jim O'Neill who was Deputy Archivist, and I interviewed with them. I had no idea that I would be moving to their front office so quickly as a grade eleven archivist.

[Assistant] It must have been stunning.

[User] I didn't know what !CA meant, so after the interview was over with, I went up to the library and asked the librarian ifshe knew what ICA w'as. I spent five years there, prim"!'ily preparing for the Congress. I also did quite a bit ofspeech writing. At times that was about half my work. Then the National Archives got involved in a joint publication with the Soviet Union archives on the documents for the relations between the two countries from 1765 to 1815. I was the administrative officer for that publication. So that was the big change in my career. It was just a real shift in everything that I was doing. It also gave me an idea ofwhat the National Archives was; much broader. Being a reference archivist in those days, in Archives I, your desk was in the stacks, your reference letters were signed by the division director. Congressional letters were signed by the Archivist. It was very bureaucratic and much closed in, physically as well as bureaucratically. So the move to the front office really opened my eyes to a Jot of things going on at the National Archives that I had no idea had happened.

[Assistant] Why do you think Al picked you?

[User] I was young and he thought I could do the job

[Assistant] Really? Your phone just rang one day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know what !CA meant, so after the interview was over with, I went up to the library and asked the librarian ifshe knew what ICA w'as. I spent five years there, prim"!'ily preparing for the Congress. I also did quite a bit ofspeech writing. At times that was about half my work. Then the National Archives got involved in a joint publication with the Soviet Union archives on the documents for the relations between the two countries from 1765 to 1815. I was the administrative officer for that publication. So that was the big change in my career. It was just a real shift in everything that I was doing. It also gave me an idea ofwhat the National Archives was; much broader. Being a reference archivist in those days, in Archives I, your desk was in the stacks, your reference letters were signed by the division director. Congressional letters were signed by the Archivist. It was very bureaucratic and much closed in, physically as well as bureaucratically. So the move to the front office really opened my eyes to a Jot of things going on at the National Archives that I had no idea had happened.

[Assistant] Why do you think Al picked you?

[User] I was young and he thought I could do the job

[Assistant] Really? Your phone just rang one day?

[User] He and I knew each other. I don't know how that happened. He was the special assistant to the Archivist at the time. There were several older gentlemen who had kind ofout lived their careers at the Archives. I met him and talked with him, and we kind ofjust knew each other.

[Assistant] I guess it paid off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was young and he thought I could do the job

[Assistant] Really? Your phone just rang one day?

[User] He and I knew each other. I don't know how that happened. He was the special assistant to the Archivist at the time. There were several older gentlemen who had kind ofout lived their careers at the Archives. I met him and talked with him, and we kind ofjust knew each other.

[Assistant] I guess it paid off?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you moved from there to other jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He and I knew each other. I don't know how that happened. He was the special assistant to the Archivist at the time. There were several older gentlemen who had kind ofout lived their careers at the Archives. I met him and talked with him, and we kind ofjust knew each other.

[Assistant] I guess it paid off?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you moved from there to other jobs?

[User] Yes, after five years, there. was very little work, because of GSA and what was going on in the Soviet Union. There was little international activity within the front office, and that whole program of died down. Clarence Lyons needed an assistant branch chief and asked if! would be willing to join his branch. Which is what I did, and that was my first real supervisory effort. Then five years after that the National Archives was forced to reestablish a Legislative Division. I was selected for that new division and spent five years there. Then there was the reorganization that took place with the preparation for the move to Archives II. The project and reference divisions were established, and I was made director ofthe Reference Division. I was doing for more than nine years at Archives I, Archives II, and Suitland.

[Assistant] Some interesting aspects ofthat job I know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So you moved from there to other jobs?

[User] Yes, after five years, there. was very little work, because of GSA and what was going on in the Soviet Union. There was little international activity within the front office, and that whole program of died down. Clarence Lyons needed an assistant branch chief and asked if! would be willing to join his branch. Which is what I did, and that was my first real supervisory effort. Then five years after that the National Archives was forced to reestablish a Legislative Division. I was selected for that new division and spent five years there. Then there was the reorganization that took place with the preparation for the move to Archives II. The project and reference divisions were established, and I was made director ofthe Reference Division. I was doing for more than nine years at Archives I, Archives II, and Suitland.

[Assistant] Some interesting aspects ofthat job I know.

[User] Then I ended my career as Deputy Director ofthe Legislative Center.

[Assistant] I would you like to really follow up on a.couple ofthings that you have mentioned. One is the International aspect of; you were involved in these international activities earlier on in your career. But I think you also got involved toward the end of your career with international activities once again. Were you involved with international activities throughout or were there ... ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I ended my career as Deputy Director ofthe Legislative Center.

[Assistant] I would you like to really follow up on a.couple ofthings that you have mentioned. One is the International aspect of; you were involved in these international activities earlier on in your career. But I think you also got involved toward the end of your career with international activities once again. Were you involved with international activities throughout or were there ... ?

[User] Th.ere were times that I was not involved, but I did become known as the person who could deal with Russian Archivists. So through the eighties I would be asked to sit in on meetings with a group ofRussian archivists or archivists from Eastern Europe. In 1992, I was asked to join with the Library of Congress and the DIA to go over to Russia and try to establish microfilm programs in the various archives in the new Russia. In '95 I became the archives representative on the US-Russia POW-MIA Commission. All ofthat was very interesting; I also was chair of the International Committee for the Society of American Archivists offand on throughout my career. I kept involved in that way too.

[Assistant] Did you notice a difference in the Russian archival world between your time when you were involved in the joint project early on and the time you were doing POW-MIA work?

[User] Well certainly between the late ?O's and early S0's and then 1992 was very different. In '92 they were talking about opening up the archives. They were trying to come to the level offreedom of information that the United States had. But that turned very quickly, so by the time I was on the U.S. Russia POW-MIA Commission it was very difficult to get into the Russian military archives and the archives that would have been useful for the US side.

[Assistant] It was' a changeable situation, Did we have any way of influencing that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Th.ere were times that I was not involved, but I did become known as the person who could deal with Russian Archivists. So through the eighties I would be asked to sit in on meetings with a group ofRussian archivists or archivists from Eastern Europe. In 1992, I was asked to join with the Library of Congress and the DIA to go over to Russia and try to establish microfilm programs in the various archives in the new Russia. In '95 I became the archives representative on the US-Russia POW-MIA Commission. All ofthat was very interesting; I also was chair of the International Committee for the Society of American Archivists offand on throughout my career. I kept involved in that way too.

[Assistant] Did you notice a difference in the Russian archival world between your time when you were involved in the joint project early on and the time you were doing POW-MIA work?

[User] Well certainly between the late ?O's and early S0's and then 1992 was very different. In '92 they were talking about opening up the archives. They were trying to come to the level offreedom of information that the United States had. But that turned very quickly, so by the time I was on the U.S. Russia POW-MIA Commission it was very difficult to get into the Russian military archives and the archives that would have been useful for the US side.

[Assistant] It was' a changeable situation, Did we have any way of influencing that at all?

[User] We tried very hard and it was almost a total failure. Nationalism took over in the middle and late 90's in Russia, and nothing was going to stop that as far as access to Russian archives.

[Assistant] That whole archival road has been such a mystery to me. It was good that you were able to experience it. I would like to hear you talk a little bit about challenges that you faced in your career. Some things that were really difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well certainly between the late ?O's and early S0's and then 1992 was very different. In '92 they were talking about opening up the archives. They were trying to come to the level offreedom of information that the United States had. But that turned very quickly, so by the time I was on the U.S. Russia POW-MIA Commission it was very difficult to get into the Russian military archives and the archives that would have been useful for the US side.

[Assistant] It was' a changeable situation, Did we have any way of influencing that at all?

[User] We tried very hard and it was almost a total failure. Nationalism took over in the middle and late 90's in Russia, and nothing was going to stop that as far as access to Russian archives.

[Assistant] That whole archival road has been such a mystery to me. It was good that you were able to experience it. I would like to hear you talk a little bit about challenges that you faced in your career. Some things that were really difficult.

[User] Certainly the getting into the front office and dealing with things that I had never done before. I had never drawn up a budget. I ended up getting grants ofabout two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the ICA Congress. I had never written a grant proposal before. I had never dealt with caterers. I had never dealt with translators, never dealt with bus companies.

[Assistant] Did you have any help? Or was it really you and the ICA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We tried very hard and it was almost a total failure. Nationalism took over in the middle and late 90's in Russia, and nothing was going to stop that as far as access to Russian archives.

[Assistant] That whole archival road has been such a mystery to me. It was good that you were able to experience it. I would like to hear you talk a little bit about challenges that you faced in your career. Some things that were really difficult.

[User] Certainly the getting into the front office and dealing with things that I had never done before. I had never drawn up a budget. I ended up getting grants ofabout two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the ICA Congress. I had never written a grant proposal before. I had never dealt with caterers. I had never dealt with translators, never dealt with bus companies.

[Assistant] Did you have any help? Or was it really you and the ICA?

[User] It was primarily me. In those five years, I had five different special assist~nts to the archivist as my supervisors. In halfthat time I had no direct supervisor at all. They just kept coming in and out. Morris Rieger and Al Leisinger had both been involved with the !CA quite a bit and so I used them alot as sources of information. We went to lunch every week for three years.

[Assistant] So they were mentors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Certainly the getting into the front office and dealing with things that I had never done before. I had never drawn up a budget. I ended up getting grants ofabout two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the ICA Congress. I had never written a grant proposal before. I had never dealt with caterers. I had never dealt with translators, never dealt with bus companies.

[Assistant] Did you have any help? Or was it really you and the ICA?

[User] It was primarily me. In those five years, I had five different special assist~nts to the archivist as my supervisors. In halfthat time I had no direct supervisor at all. They just kept coming in and out. Morris Rieger and Al Leisinger had both been involved with the !CA quite a bit and so I used them alot as sources of information. We went to lunch every week for three years.

[Assistant] So they were mentors?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I would have no idea. I can appreciate that we have different agencies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was primarily me. In those five years, I had five different special assist~nts to the archivist as my supervisors. In halfthat time I had no direct supervisor at all. They just kept coming in and out. Morris Rieger and Al Leisinger had both been involved with the !CA quite a bit and so I used them alot as sources of information. We went to lunch every week for three years.

[Assistant] So they were mentors?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I would have no idea. I can appreciate that we have different agencies.

[User] The next big challenge was learning to be a supervisor.

[Assistant] Well, that's what I wanted to hear you talk about a little bit. You didn't really apply for this. I mean Clarence sort ofselected you. Did you have some difficulty making the decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I would have no idea. I can appreciate that we have different agencies.

[User] The next big challenge was learning to be a supervisor.

[Assistant] Well, that's what I wanted to hear you talk about a little bit. You didn't really apply for this. I mean Clarence sort ofselected you. Did you have some difficulty making the decision?

[User] No, I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do, because the work load in the front office just died. I didn't know this, but I went to talk to Bert Rhoads about my possible assignments. But I went in there at the time, and he thought that was a good idea. Three days later he resigned, and just stunned everybody at the National Archives.

[Assistant] Did you have any insight into that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The next big challenge was learning to be a supervisor.

[Assistant] Well, that's what I wanted to hear you talk about a little bit. You didn't really apply for this. I mean Clarence sort ofselected you. Did you have some difficulty making the decision?

[User] No, I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do, because the work load in the front office just died. I didn't know this, but I went to talk to Bert Rhoads about my possible assignments. But I went in there at the time, and he thought that was a good idea. Three days later he resigned, and just stunned everybody at the National Archives.

[Assistant] Did you have any insight into that decision?

[User] None at all. When Jim O' Neill heard that I was leaving, he was very upset and tried to talk me into staying. He was going to be Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] A challenge all on its own, but you decided it was time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do, because the work load in the front office just died. I didn't know this, but I went to talk to Bert Rhoads about my possible assignments. But I went in there at the time, and he thought that was a good idea. Three days later he resigned, and just stunned everybody at the National Archives.

[Assistant] Did you have any insight into that decision?

[User] None at all. When Jim O' Neill heard that I was leaving, he was very upset and tried to talk me into staying. He was going to be Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] A challenge all on its own, but you decided it was time?

[User] .It was time that I get back to the records and the people. I had supervised a staff, a volunteer staff and three people in the front office to work as translators. We translated all of the papers ofthe Congress into five languages. I had some experience with those people. My first division director, Mark Eikhoff, then Clarence Lyons as branch chief. They were mentors for me also as I became a supervisor.

[Assistant] Was there formal training, did you take any classroom training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None at all. When Jim O' Neill heard that I was leaving, he was very upset and tried to talk me into staying. He was going to be Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] A challenge all on its own, but you decided it was time?

[User] .It was time that I get back to the records and the people. I had supervised a staff, a volunteer staff and three people in the front office to work as translators. We translated all of the papers ofthe Congress into five languages. I had some experience with those people. My first division director, Mark Eikhoff, then Clarence Lyons as branch chief. They were mentors for me also as I became a supervisor.

[Assistant] Was there formal training, did you take any classroom training.

[User] I probably did take a class, some kind ofclassroom training, but it was worthless. It was awful.

[Assistant] Well, ifit was the same one I took, it was a GSA, about a week and it wasn't memorable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] .It was time that I get back to the records and the people. I had supervised a staff, a volunteer staff and three people in the front office to work as translators. We translated all of the papers ofthe Congress into five languages. I had some experience with those people. My first division director, Mark Eikhoff, then Clarence Lyons as branch chief. They were mentors for me also as I became a supervisor.

[Assistant] Was there formal training, did you take any classroom training.

[User] I probably did take a class, some kind ofclassroom training, but it was worthless. It was awful.

[Assistant] Well, ifit was the same one I took, it was a GSA, about a week and it wasn't memorable.

[User] Clarence was very good about teaching me how to get the paper work done. How to protect the staff, so they could get their work done.

[Assistant] He saw his role as mentor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I probably did take a class, some kind ofclassroom training, but it was worthless. It was awful.

[Assistant] Well, ifit was the same one I took, it was a GSA, about a week and it wasn't memorable.

[User] Clarence was very good about teaching me how to get the paper work done. How to protect the staff, so they could get their work done.

[Assistant] He saw his role as mentor?

[User] Right. We had a great staff and it was fun.

[Assistant] Once you had some experience and some advice, you felt more comfortable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Clarence was very good about teaching me how to get the paper work done. How to protect the staff, so they could get their work done.

[Assistant] He saw his role as mentor?

[User] Right. We had a great staff and it was fun.

[Assistant] Once you had some experience and some advice, you felt more comfortable.

[User] Starting up the legislative division was also a new experience for me. I never dealt with anyone on the Hill. Two historians there in the House and Senate informally supervised the Legislative Archives Division also. Dick Baker, Ray Smock and I talked on a weekly basis. It was helpful, yes, but we could also come back to the National Archives and say the Senate wants this or the House wants that.

[Assistant] I am sure it's still happening.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. We had a great staff and it was fun.

[Assistant] Once you had some experience and some advice, you felt more comfortable.

[User] Starting up the legislative division was also a new experience for me. I never dealt with anyone on the Hill. Two historians there in the House and Senate informally supervised the Legislative Archives Division also. Dick Baker, Ray Smock and I talked on a weekly basis. It was helpful, yes, but we could also come back to the National Archives and say the Senate wants this or the House wants that.

[Assistant] I am sure it's still happening.

[User] I am sure it is. The National Archives for the most part was looked upon as a very friendly agency on the hill. We weren't asking for billions ofdollars. We weren't doing bad things with what we spent. We were looked upon as a good agency, so it was fairly easy to get involved in the politics ofit all.

[Assistant] How did the guide project originate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Starting up the legislative division was also a new experience for me. I never dealt with anyone on the Hill. Two historians there in the House and Senate informally supervised the Legislative Archives Division also. Dick Baker, Ray Smock and I talked on a weekly basis. It was helpful, yes, but we could also come back to the National Archives and say the Senate wants this or the House wants that.

[Assistant] I am sure it's still happening.

[User] I am sure it is. The National Archives for the most part was looked upon as a very friendly agency on the hill. We weren't asking for billions ofdollars. We weren't doing bad things with what we spent. We were looked upon as a good agency, so it was fairly easy to get involved in the politics ofit all.

[Assistant] How did the guide project originate?

[User] It started before I took over.

[Assistant] Oh it did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am sure it is. The National Archives for the most part was looked upon as a very friendly agency on the hill. We weren't asking for billions ofdollars. We weren't doing bad things with what we spent. We were looked upon as a good agency, so it was fairly easy to get involved in the politics ofit all.

[Assistant] How did the guide project originate?

[User] It started before I took over.

[Assistant] Oh it did?

[User] Yes. There had been a planning between Smock, Baker and the National Archives for the Bi-Centennial of Congress. There were three projects that were going to be done. One was the guides, one was a preservation projects of Senate and House documents, and then a microfilming project ofthe early Congresses. All ofthose projects had come along when legislative records were part ofthe Diplomatic, Legislative_ and Fiscal Division. So when I took over those projects for the division many people did deadlines and all of this business. It was a major undertaking. Trudy Peterson, who was head of the Office in the National Archives was very supportive. We had a lot oftrainees come through and spend two or months working on various chapters. Virginia Purdy and Bob Kvasnicka were editors for us. Bob figured out a way of dealing with the changes ofcommittee names and functions, which is just constant. Trying to write a descriptive guide on those committees was impossible. So finally he came up with line charts which illustrated the changes ofcommittees, years and names of committees. He saved hundreds of paragraphs.

[Assistant] I am not sure ifBob has got sufficient credit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It started before I took over.

[Assistant] Oh it did?

[User] Yes. There had been a planning between Smock, Baker and the National Archives for the Bi-Centennial of Congress. There were three projects that were going to be done. One was the guides, one was a preservation projects of Senate and House documents, and then a microfilming project ofthe early Congresses. All ofthose projects had come along when legislative records were part ofthe Diplomatic, Legislative_ and Fiscal Division. So when I took over those projects for the division many people did deadlines and all of this business. It was a major undertaking. Trudy Peterson, who was head of the Office in the National Archives was very supportive. We had a lot oftrainees come through and spend two or months working on various chapters. Virginia Purdy and Bob Kvasnicka were editors for us. Bob figured out a way of dealing with the changes ofcommittee names and functions, which is just constant. Trying to write a descriptive guide on those committees was impossible. So finally he came up with line charts which illustrated the changes ofcommittees, years and names of committees. He saved hundreds of paragraphs.

[Assistant] I am not sure ifBob has got sufficient credit.

[User] He saved us.

[Assistant] That worked, got over that hurtle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There had been a planning between Smock, Baker and the National Archives for the Bi-Centennial of Congress. There were three projects that were going to be done. One was the guides, one was a preservation projects of Senate and House documents, and then a microfilming project ofthe early Congresses. All ofthose projects had come along when legislative records were part ofthe Diplomatic, Legislative_ and Fiscal Division. So when I took over those projects for the division many people did deadlines and all of this business. It was a major undertaking. Trudy Peterson, who was head of the Office in the National Archives was very supportive. We had a lot oftrainees come through and spend two or months working on various chapters. Virginia Purdy and Bob Kvasnicka were editors for us. Bob figured out a way of dealing with the changes ofcommittee names and functions, which is just constant. Trying to write a descriptive guide on those committees was impossible. So finally he came up with line charts which illustrated the changes ofcommittees, years and names of committees. He saved hundreds of paragraphs.

[Assistant] I am not sure ifBob has got sufficient credit.

[User] He saved us.

[Assistant] That worked, got over that hurtle.

[User] We met our publication date. We worked with GPO. They got three hand made copies done by the date.

[Assistant] Well, what about the microfilming and preservation, did they also go forward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He saved us.

[Assistant] That worked, got over that hurtle.

[User] We met our publication date. We worked with GPO. They got three hand made copies done by the date.

[Assistant] Well, what about the microfilming and preservation, did they also go forward?

[User] They went forward, yes. My deputy was David Kepley and we did have three people who were doing preservation work, reboxing, refoldering records. No one had kept track of their work. We had been given two hundred and fifty thousand dollars by Congress to do this. We had no idea if we had spent the money or not. So David dove into the records and straightened that problem out. Then the microfilming went forward too.

[Assistant] That was Legislative. Any other challenges?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We met our publication date. We worked with GPO. They got three hand made copies done by the date.

[Assistant] Well, what about the microfilming and preservation, did they also go forward?

[User] They went forward, yes. My deputy was David Kepley and we did have three people who were doing preservation work, reboxing, refoldering records. No one had kept track of their work. We had been given two hundred and fifty thousand dollars by Congress to do this. We had no idea if we had spent the money or not. So David dove into the records and straightened that problem out. Then the microfilming went forward too.

[Assistant] That was Legislative. Any other challenges?

[User] Well umm the next big challenge I think was when I was head ofthe Reference Division and made the spokesman for the National Archives after the film "JFK" was released.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember getting up one morning and getting the Washington Post and turning to the federal page, and there was my picture. And I thought my God, now what have I got myself into.

[Assistant] That was in the midst ofthis.

[User] Yes, my fifteen minutes of fame.

[Assistant] So it was hard to top that experience

[User]
Well our FBI experience comes close to that. I had actually worked with the GSA lawyer, Steve Garfmkel. I had worked with him on Watergate records before Judge Green actually forced the National Archives and the FBI to do a full appraisal ofFBI records (1980-81).

So !knew what the whole background ofthe appraisal problem was, but it was a fascinating experience. I don't know ifyou agree with me or not but one ofthe things I thought about the schedule we came out with. Fifteen people trying to get a job done. Having very good ideas of what they thought should be done. The schedule was much too complicated. We tried to cut the cheese so thinly, so that it made it difficult for the FBI to implement. I have heard that the FBI has been sending more records here in recent years, which were certainly not the case for many years after that, 1982.

[Assistant] What has precipitated the avalanche of FBI materials is they have to relocate from a building in Virginia to West Virginia, and they don't want to move the files. It's the same old story ..


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, my fifteen minutes of fame.

[Assistant] So it was hard to top that experience

[User]
Well our FBI experience comes close to that. I had actually worked with the GSA lawyer, Steve Garfmkel. I had worked with him on Watergate records before Judge Green actually forced the National Archives and the FBI to do a full appraisal ofFBI records (1980-81).

So !knew what the whole background ofthe appraisal problem was, but it was a fascinating experience. I don't know ifyou agree with me or not but one ofthe things I thought about the schedule we came out with. Fifteen people trying to get a job done. Having very good ideas of what they thought should be done. The schedule was much too complicated. We tried to cut the cheese so thinly, so that it made it difficult for the FBI to implement. I have heard that the FBI has been sending more records here in recent years, which were certainly not the case for many years after that, 1982.

[Assistant] What has precipitated the avalanche of FBI materials is they have to relocate from a building in Virginia to West Virginia, and they don't want to move the files. It's the same old story ..

[User] It was an interesting clash of archival thoughts and ideas as to what should be kept and what shouldn't. What was the role ofthe FBI in the history ofthe United States? The fact that Charles Dollar, deputy project director, came in'after our first or second day ofvoting on appraisal decisions saying "this - would be not only an archival document but also a court document and a political document. Folks we have got to think about that."

[Assistant] Some interestipg conversations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well our FBI experience comes close to that. I had actually worked with the GSA lawyer, Steve Garfmkel. I had worked with him on Watergate records before Judge Green actually forced the National Archives and the FBI to do a full appraisal ofFBI records (1980-81).

So !knew what the whole background ofthe appraisal problem was, but it was a fascinating experience. I don't know ifyou agree with me or not but one ofthe things I thought about the schedule we came out with. Fifteen people trying to get a job done. Having very good ideas of what they thought should be done. The schedule was much too complicated. We tried to cut the cheese so thinly, so that it made it difficult for the FBI to implement. I have heard that the FBI has been sending more records here in recent years, which were certainly not the case for many years after that, 1982.

[Assistant] What has precipitated the avalanche of FBI materials is they have to relocate from a building in Virginia to West Virginia, and they don't want to move the files. It's the same old story ..

[User] It was an interesting clash of archival thoughts and ideas as to what should be kept and what shouldn't. What was the role ofthe FBI in the history ofthe United States? The fact that Charles Dollar, deputy project director, came in'after our first or second day ofvoting on appraisal decisions saying "this - would be not only an archival document but also a court document and a political document. Folks we have got to think about that."

[Assistant] Some interestipg conversations.

[User] So I have been fortunate to have-these kinds of activities like that throughout my career.

[Assistant] I would be interested to know what you would describe as your best experience ofall the things you have done and been involved with, really the best thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an interesting clash of archival thoughts and ideas as to what should be kept and what shouldn't. What was the role ofthe FBI in the history ofthe United States? The fact that Charles Dollar, deputy project director, came in'after our first or second day ofvoting on appraisal decisions saying "this - would be not only an archival document but also a court document and a political document. Folks we have got to think about that."

[Assistant] Some interestipg conversations.

[User] So I have been fortunate to have-these kinds of activities like that throughout my career.

[Assistant] I would be interested to know what you would describe as your best experience ofall the things you have done and been involved with, really the best thing.

[User] Well I always loved reference. So being head ofthe Reference Division gave me an opportunity to let the reference staffdo their work. I was always involved with the Freedom ofInformation Act. So that was a pivotal part ofmy work in reference. The work that we did on Watergate, especially with the Watergate Special Prosecution Force. I worked with Steve Tilley. We had fascinating resear.chers and that was fun. The FBI task force was fun too. I was fortunate, I really was.

[Assistant] It sounds like that was the case. Would you say anything ab_out ' your worse experience? Was there a worst experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I have been fortunate to have-these kinds of activities like that throughout my career.

[Assistant] I would be interested to know what you would describe as your best experience ofall the things you have done and been involved with, really the best thing.

[User] Well I always loved reference. So being head ofthe Reference Division gave me an opportunity to let the reference staffdo their work. I was always involved with the Freedom ofInformation Act. So that was a pivotal part ofmy work in reference. The work that we did on Watergate, especially with the Watergate Special Prosecution Force. I worked with Steve Tilley. We had fascinating resear.chers and that was fun. The FBI task force was fun too. I was fortunate, I really was.

[Assistant] It sounds like that was the case. Would you say anything ab_out ' your worse experience? Was there a worst experience?

[User] The last few years were my worst experience. I had seen so many people leave the Archives very bitter. I was put in the situation where I could have been very bitter, and I determined that I wasn't going to be. So I got involved with the POW- MIA commission. Then I was also made the point person for Legislative electronic records. I geared up to keep in touch with all the stuffthat was going on with the Hill with electronic records, so that made the experience easier and better. But it wasn't easy the last three years.

[Assistant] I can appreciate that. It's a major change. Well you made some clear moves as time went by and what precipitated those moves? Was it because an opportunity came up, and you decided to do something different or someone invited you to do something different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I always loved reference. So being head ofthe Reference Division gave me an opportunity to let the reference staffdo their work. I was always involved with the Freedom ofInformation Act. So that was a pivotal part ofmy work in reference. The work that we did on Watergate, especially with the Watergate Special Prosecution Force. I worked with Steve Tilley. We had fascinating resear.chers and that was fun. The FBI task force was fun too. I was fortunate, I really was.

[Assistant] It sounds like that was the case. Would you say anything ab_out ' your worse experience? Was there a worst experience?

[User] The last few years were my worst experience. I had seen so many people leave the Archives very bitter. I was put in the situation where I could have been very bitter, and I determined that I wasn't going to be. So I got involved with the POW- MIA commission. Then I was also made the point person for Legislative electronic records. I geared up to keep in touch with all the stuffthat was going on with the Hill with electronic records, so that made the experience easier and better. But it wasn't easy the last three years.

[Assistant] I can appreciate that. It's a major change. Well you made some clear moves as time went by and what precipitated those moves? Was it because an opportunity came up, and you decided to do something different or someone invited you to do something different?

[User] It was different through different changes. The movement up to the front office in international archival activities was just out ofthe blue. The move into Clarence Lyons.Branch was something that I wanted and would have campaigned for. Same way with Legislative, I was interested in doing something like that and same with Reference. They were things that I wanted to do.

[Assistant] I can't remember. .. were those jobs posted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The last few years were my worst experience. I had seen so many people leave the Archives very bitter. I was put in the situation where I could have been very bitter, and I determined that I wasn't going to be. So I got involved with the POW- MIA commission. Then I was also made the point person for Legislative electronic records. I geared up to keep in touch with all the stuffthat was going on with the Hill with electronic records, so that made the experience easier and better. But it wasn't easy the last three years.

[Assistant] I can appreciate that. It's a major change. Well you made some clear moves as time went by and what precipitated those moves? Was it because an opportunity came up, and you decided to do something different or someone invited you to do something different?

[User] It was different through different changes. The movement up to the front office in international archival activities was just out ofthe blue. The move into Clarence Lyons.Branch was something that I wanted and would have campaigned for. Same way with Legislative, I was interested in doing something like that and same with Reference. They were things that I wanted to do.

[Assistant] I can't remember. .. were those jobs posted?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, so it's good you had the opportunity to make the decision yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was different through different changes. The movement up to the front office in international archival activities was just out ofthe blue. The move into Clarence Lyons.Branch was something that I wanted and would have campaigned for. Same way with Legislative, I was interested in doing something like that and same with Reference. They were things that I wanted to do.

[Assistant] I can't remember. .. were those jobs posted?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, so it's good you had the opportunity to make the decision yourself.

[User] I did taik to Trudy Peterson over the Legislative job and the Reference job before they were posted. I just indicated my interest in them.

[Assistant] Did you work with other federal agencies to any great extent while you were here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yes, so it's good you had the opportunity to make the decision yourself.

[User] I did taik to Trudy Peterson over the Legislative job and the Reference job before they were posted. I just indicated my interest in them.

[Assistant] Did you work with other federal agencies to any great extent while you were here?

[User] Not very much. I knew the records manager at the Department ofJustice and then during the FBI task force, ofcourse we got to know the FBI very well. I knew ihe Clerk's staff at the Supreme Court an~ I worked with them. I worked with various staffs on the Hill when I was in Legislative. I didn't have a wide contact ofrecords officers or anything like that.

[Assistant] We would like to talk a little bit more about researchers. Were there any that stick in your mind as being particular fascinating?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did taik to Trudy Peterson over the Legislative job and the Reference job before they were posted. I just indicated my interest in them.

[Assistant] Did you work with other federal agencies to any great extent while you were here?

[User] Not very much. I knew the records manager at the Department ofJustice and then during the FBI task force, ofcourse we got to know the FBI very well. I knew ihe Clerk's staff at the Supreme Court an~ I worked with them. I worked with various staffs on the Hill when I was in Legislative. I didn't have a wide contact ofrecords officers or anything like that.

[Assistant] We would like to talk a little bit more about researchers. Were there any that stick in your mind as being particular fascinating?

[User] Yes ofcourse a lot ofthem were fascinating and I got to know many ofthem as friends. I worked with Allen Weinstein on his Alger Hiss book. I got to work with tow ofmy favorite professors, Sidney Fine and John Hope Franklin. I worked with Stan Kutler on Watergate and Randy Roberts on "Bad Blood" and Jack Johnson. Kermit Hall and Mary K. Bonsteal Tachau were legal historians who became good friends. And others in the Washington area such as Pete Daniel, Same Walker, Anna Nelson, - and Maeda Marcus. I was a member ofthe American Society for Legal History and a number ofthose people were researchers. It was same with the Society offor History of the Federal Government and the Organization of American Historians.

[Assistant] So you were active in those professional organizations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very much. I knew the records manager at the Department ofJustice and then during the FBI task force, ofcourse we got to know the FBI very well. I knew ihe Clerk's staff at the Supreme Court an~ I worked with them. I worked with various staffs on the Hill when I was in Legislative. I didn't have a wide contact ofrecords officers or anything like that.

[Assistant] We would like to talk a little bit more about researchers. Were there any that stick in your mind as being particular fascinating?

[User] Yes ofcourse a lot ofthem were fascinating and I got to know many ofthem as friends. I worked with Allen Weinstein on his Alger Hiss book. I got to work with tow ofmy favorite professors, Sidney Fine and John Hope Franklin. I worked with Stan Kutler on Watergate and Randy Roberts on "Bad Blood" and Jack Johnson. Kermit Hall and Mary K. Bonsteal Tachau were legal historians who became good friends. And others in the Washington area such as Pete Daniel, Same Walker, Anna Nelson, - and Maeda Marcus. I was a member ofthe American Society for Legal History and a number ofthose people were researchers. It was same with the Society offor History of the Federal Government and the Organization of American Historians.

[Assistant] So you were active in those professional organizations?

[User] It was always easier if you knew these people through the professional organizations when things went wrong at the Nationa!'Archives. You could try to straighten it out. That happened a lot. I became the spokesman for the FBI task force at the American Legal History Society and OAH.

[Assistant] How was that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes ofcourse a lot ofthem were fascinating and I got to know many ofthem as friends. I worked with Allen Weinstein on his Alger Hiss book. I got to work with tow ofmy favorite professors, Sidney Fine and John Hope Franklin. I worked with Stan Kutler on Watergate and Randy Roberts on "Bad Blood" and Jack Johnson. Kermit Hall and Mary K. Bonsteal Tachau were legal historians who became good friends. And others in the Washington area such as Pete Daniel, Same Walker, Anna Nelson, - and Maeda Marcus. I was a member ofthe American Society for Legal History and a number ofthose people were researchers. It was same with the Society offor History of the Federal Government and the Organization of American Historians.

[Assistant] So you were active in those professional organizations?

[User] It was always easier if you knew these people through the professional organizations when things went wrong at the Nationa!'Archives. You could try to straighten it out. That happened a lot. I became the spokesman for the FBI task force at the American Legal History Society and OAH.

[Assistant] How was that experience?

[User] Fairly hostile. They wanted the red meat ofJ. Edgar Hoover documents and that sort ofthing for whatever reason. We never really found any smoking guns in the records when we went through them.

[Assistant] It may or may not have been saved for whatever reason. You just don't know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was always easier if you knew these people through the professional organizations when things went wrong at the Nationa!'Archives. You could try to straighten it out. That happened a lot. I became the spokesman for the FBI task force at the American Legal History Society and OAH.

[Assistant] How was that experience?

[User] Fairly hostile. They wanted the red meat ofJ. Edgar Hoover documents and that sort ofthing for whatever reason. We never really found any smoking guns in the records when we went through them.

[Assistant] It may or may not have been saved for whatever reason. You just don't know.

[User] Right, when I said that, they were not happy with me. It was dealing with researchers and something I dealt with all my life.

[Assistant] Was there ever one that was really a problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fairly hostile. They wanted the red meat ofJ. Edgar Hoover documents and that sort ofthing for whatever reason. We never really found any smoking guns in the records when we went through them.

[Assistant] It may or may not have been saved for whatever reason. You just don't know.

[User] Right, when I said that, they were not happy with me. It was dealing with researchers and something I dealt with all my life.

[Assistant] Was there ever one that was really a problem?

[User] We had several real problems.

[Assistant] What was the nature ofthe problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, when I said that, they were not happy with me. It was dealing with researchers and something I dealt with all my life.

[Assistant] Was there ever one that was really a problem?

[User] We had several real problems.

[Assistant] What was the nature ofthe problem?

[User] Who was the researcher? He was German? He dealt with getting stolen art cases.

[Assistant] I know who you are taking about but I can't think of his name [Willi Korte].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had several real problems.

[Assistant] What was the nature ofthe problem?

[User] Who was the researcher? He was German? He dealt with getting stolen art cases.

[Assistant] I know who you are taking about but I can't think of his name [Willi Korte].

[User] He caused enough problems in the research room that we had to take his card away from him. That meant his livelihood was gone. We had a whole list of things that he had done. We had warned him that he would get his researcher privileges revoked. And eventually we took his research card away from him for six months.

[Assistant] Did that make a different in his behavior?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Who was the researcher? He was German? He dealt with getting stolen art cases.

[Assistant] I know who you are taking about but I can't think of his name [Willi Korte].

[User] He caused enough problems in the research room that we had to take his card away from him. That meant his livelihood was gone. We had a whole list of things that he had done. We had warned him that he would get his researcher privileges revoked. And eventually we took his research card away from him for six months.

[Assistant] Did that make a different in his behavior?

[User] Yes it did. When he came back, he was a lot more pleasant. He was still a difficult researcher, but he was better. We took research cards from... I guess six people during the nine years that I was in Reference.

[Assistant] It's still happening


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He caused enough problems in the research room that we had to take his card away from him. That meant his livelihood was gone. We had a whole list of things that he had done. We had warned him that he would get his researcher privileges revoked. And eventually we took his research card away from him for six months.

[Assistant] Did that make a different in his behavior?

[User] Yes it did. When he came back, he was a lot more pleasant. He was still a difficult researcher, but he was better. We took research cards from... I guess six people during the nine years that I was in Reference.

[Assistant] It's still happening

[User] I was involved with one theft incident.

[Assistant] That would be something to talk a little about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes it did. When he came back, he was a lot more pleasant. He was still a difficult researcher, but he was better. We took research cards from... I guess six people during the nine years that I was in Reference.

[Assistant] It's still happening

[User] I was involved with one theft incident.

[Assistant] That would be something to talk a little about.

[User] The point person in that case was Mike Musick. It was Civil War stuff.

[Assistant] It was discovered somehow ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was involved with one theft incident.

[Assistant] That would be something to talk a little about.

[User] The point person in that case was Mike Musick. It was Civil War stuff.

[Assistant] It was discovered somehow ...

[User] Yes, it was discovered, I think Mike is the one who discovered it. Documents were put on the market. The man went to jail eventually.

[Assistant] Something that is happening again fairly recently.